The Sun.
London, England, 1842-07-23 00:00:00

RNING, .JULY 23, 1842.

carry that principle out to demonstrate its absurdity. If
the inhabitants of the country were to export thkir whole
household furniture, undoubtedly it would increase the
amount of the exports, but it wokid at the same time
impOverish the country. With art
destitution in Manches rwf showing the
tet°
increase of r,, he would state
that in 1835 the poor-rates amounted, 24,0611. and in
1842; to 45,835/: The rate was now increasing at
the rate of lOU for out-door relief, and 2001.
for relief in the workhouse: A great deal had
been said of the immigration of the agricultural la-
bourers into the manufacturing districts, but a reference
to the Report of the Poor-law Commissioners would
show that the amount of that immigration had been
greatly overrated. He trusted the House would not
reject the. motion,
No other Member rising to address the House,
strangers were ordered to withdraw, but no division on
the main
.question took place.
Mr. COBDEN having (as we understood) moved the
adjournment of the debate, en which motion the House
divided. The numbers were—
For the adjournment gg
Against it .. 188
Majority against the adjournment - —155
On our tntrance to th,o gallery,
Mr. lIINDLEY was on his legs, and moved the itti-,
journment of the debate, amidst loud cries of " Oh, oh,"
and " Question, question." .
Mr. G. BERKELEY said he was sorry he could not
vote for the motion of the Hon. Member if he pressed it

to a division.
Mr. HUME said that his lion. Friend had expected
that the Right Hon. Baronet would have spoken, and he
was anxious to have an opportunity of making an expla-
nation upon what might be said. He did not think the
Right Hon. Baronet had treated those who brought the
subject forward as he ought.
Sir R. PEEL said that if regular attendance at the
House was any proof of sensibility 'to the distress
of the country he had •certainly given that proof.
—(Loud cheers.) He ventured tel say that for
one night that the Hon. Member for Ashton was in his
place, he (Sir R. Peel), was there three.-,(Cheers.)
The llon. Gentleman was absent during most of the

debate, and as a justification fur moving the adjournment
of the HouSe, he said that he (Sir R. Peel) had' not
answered his question, whether, if corn rose to about
50s. or 545. the quarter, he would promise to open the
ports. With regard to those debates, he had shown no
impatience to those whose opinions were adverse to his
own. He tnig4t.have complained of delay, but iielarve
attributed the conduct of , Honeurahle Gentlemen
opposite to any improper motives, or to any
desire to obstruct the public business. He had
taken a part. in the discussions upon this sub-
ject when it was brought before the House on various
occasions, on one of which it was debated for three suc-
cessive nights. A motion had been made that an hum-
ole address be presented to her Majesty, that she would
be pleased to reftise her consent to the prorogation of
Parliainent till a searching inquiry had been made into
the unprecedented distress which prevailed throughout the
kingdom. That motion was negatived by 165 to 84.
(Hear' hear.) He had on that occasion, as the organ of
her Majesty's Government, stated, what preiented him
from 'assenting 'to' that. iiiotion;-: Since that mso.ion
was made by the Hon. Member for Aberdeen,
to the effect that her Majesty's Government should open the
ports, which was almost the same as the present motion, and
on that occasion he and others of her Majesty's Government
bad discussed the question. Last night another debate had
taken place on the subject, which exactly embraced the same
topics which had been adverted to this evening, and on that oc-
casion also he stated what his opinions were.—t. Hear, hear. )
No intention had been shown yesterday by the Members of
the Government to treat their opponents with any disrespect.—
( Hear, hear.) His Right Hon. Friend the Secretary if State
for the Home Department and himself had spoken in the eourse
of the discussion. Previous to the division the Honourable
Member for Manchester had stated that he should
not persist in moving an adjournment of the debate
because he would bring forward the question again in going into
Committee of Supply. Now, what inference could be drawn
from such a statement, but that the present discussion was
practically a continuation of the debate of the preceding even-
ing.—( Hear, hear.) It appeared to him that it must have been
considered in that light even by the Members of the late Ad-
ministration, inasmuch as he saw but two or three of them pre-
, sent that evening. He felt assured that there would have been
a larger attendance on the part of those gentlemen, if they had
thought the present was a separate discussion of an important
subject. lie had himself, as he had already said, spoken
yesterday, and he had not addressed the House that evening.
because he had no new statements, and no new explanations to
make.—( Hear.)
Mr. EWART was bound to admit that the Right Hon.
Baronet had not manifested throughout the discussions in that
House any personal disrespect towards his opponents. But it'
appeared to him that it would have been better that the Ri"ht
Hon. Baronet should have given the explanation he had just
made before the House had proceeded to a division that even-
ing. He did not, however, wish that the question of an ad-
journment of the House should then be pressed.
Mr. COBDEN contended that the question before the
Houae that evening was not the same question which they had
considered yesterday. He should support the motion for an
adjournment of the debate until Monday, in order to give lion.
Members further time to consider the question. lie believed
that the majority of that: House was held in utter disgust
throughout the country.—( Cries of " Hear, hear," and " Oh,
oh.") He was much mistaken if the truth of that statement
was not proved before six months had elapsed.
Mr. HAWES regretted to find himself obliged to differ with
-his Hon. Friend the Member for Stockport; but it certainly
appeared to him, that to resist the deliberate opinions of a
majority t,f the House, was altogether contrary to the princi-
pies of representative Government.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.")
He thought that they had more reason to complain, that on a
motion made, and supported by the Members of such im-
portant places, no Member of the Government should have
risen and answered, however briefly, the arguments used
on the occasion.—(Hear, hear.) Such a thing had
never occurred before, and he thought his Hen. Friend
had some reason to complain. But, on the other hand, he
must repeat that if such motions were pressed he must resist
them, on account of the important constitutional and represen-
tative question that was involved in it.
Mr. COWPER urged his Hon. Friend to withdraw his
motion. _ _

Mr. FIELDEN said his answer was, that the people we e
starving for want of food, and if no remedy were provided by
the Government, he should like to know what Government was?
Government in this country was an expensive affair; they
raised sixteen or seventeen millions from the people, and coutil
they complain of being obstructed in the votes of supplies
or any other measure, when they were prevented from robbing
the people while they were taxing them? He was rejoiced to
throw every obstacle in the way ; he told them that the people
had no money to pay them. The Right Honourable
Baronet was not doing his duty to the people of this
country, that he would tell him plainly. The Right
Honourable Baronet had granted him a personal interview,
and had received hjm very courteously, and at that interview he
(Mr. Fielden) had communicated some important facts to him ;
he had called his attention to the state of the country, and
bad asked him to do something to prevent the people
from starving for want of food. But all his entrea-
tries had been of no avail; never since he had been
in that House, had he been able to procure any relief for a
suffering people. The Right Hon. Baronet had talked of ma-
chinery being the cause of distress ; now he had a petition in
his pocket from a poor flannel weaver of Rochdale, and
he did not wonder that that individual considered ma-
chinery as the cause of his distress. In his petition, he
says—what does he say ?—( Laughter.) The gentlemen
Nvlio laughed had much better go home to bed to their
rives.—(Roars of laughter.) Ha says in his petition that
he commenced work at about seven years of age ; that in
the year 1825 he laid out 8(11. in such machinery as ho re-
quired for his own house, and saved 40/. besides ; that
man was now ruined, and had nothing but the
workhouse staring him in the face. That flannel
weaver sent his petition first to the Right Hon. Baronet, who
sent it back to him wishing he would place it in other hands,
and the weaver had sent it to him (Mr. Fielden). Here was
a ease of great hardship, and were they to tell him that there
should be no relief? It was the old constitutional practice
to insist, to demand a redress of grievances before a
shilling of the supplies was granted, and this practice
he should pursue. They had voted twenty millions for the
emancipation of the slaves, yet the slaves were better taken
care
.ot than the manufacturing operatives. Why not vote
twenty millions to relieve them? They should have his vote'
for that purpose. And he would tell them how to do it. Let
them go into the manufacturing districts and buy up the stocks
in band, and keep them till there was a demand for them. If
they, continued as they were, the public credit would be
shaken—the funds would not be worth two year's purchase.
If the Government refused the relief he would continue to ob-
struct the voting of money ; and it.would remain to be seen if
the people would support him. The people in the manufac-
turing districts would support him. What he did he did con-
scientiously, and he did not care if they called him factious, or
accused him of obstructing the public business. If the Hight
Hon. Baronet and his colleagues did not give them some hope
of a better state of things, he would divide against going into a
Committee of Supply, if he stayed there until five o clock in the
morning.
31r. T. DUNCOMBE thought that if the Hon. Member
for Stockport, when he moved the adjournment, had stated the
reasons for his so doing, that the Right Hon. Baronet would
have given the explanation he had since given, and the debate
%%odd have been continued. After that explanation he trusted
the motion would be withdrawn, and that the Hon. Member
for Stockport would address the House.
Sir R. PEEL said that what the Hon. Member for Fins-
bury had stated was the fact. He was surprised at tke Hon.
Member for Stockport moving the adjournment of the debate
at so eat lyan hour as twelve o'clock ; and, if the Hon. Member

had stated his reasons for the motion, he (Sir R. Peel) should
certainly have given the explanation which he had given since.
Mr. Si. GIBSON said his motion was one of a different
nature from that which had been submitted to the House last
night by the Hon. Member for Finsbury. It had not been
brought forward in consequence of the debate of last night not
having been adjourned. He had a motion on the paper on the
subject for some time past, on going into Committee of Supply.
Sir 11. PEEL had misunderstood the Hon. Gantleman.
The motion the Hon. Gentleman had had on the paper was, on
the motion for going into Committee of Supply, to draw the
attention of the' House to the shopkeepers of Manchester—
a very different motion from the present.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. MUNTZ trusted the motion for adjournment would be
withdrawn.
Mr. HINDLEY, in withdrawing his motion for adjourning
the debate, said that in reply to the taunt of the Right Hon.
Baronet on his (Mr. Hindley s) absence from the House, he
I:e.eged to congratulate the Right lion. Gentleman in not
having had the same cause for absence from the house that
he ( Mr. Hindley) had—severe domestic calamity.—( Hear.)
Mr. COBDEN said that the proposition before the House
was one calling on them to make an inquiry into the causes
of the distress of the country. It was the duty of the
House to institute that inquiry. The country was not now in
the condition it was at the commencement of the session.
Every week, every day that e'apsed since that time had added
to the misfortunes of the country: When the Right Hen. Ba-
ronet came into office he asked for time to consider the
facts of the case, and pronised to devise some measure of re •
lief for the country. The Right Hon. Baronet had ample op-
portunities of knowing the increase of the distress—he knew-,
wee:: attcr week, the progress in the increase of the poor-rates
--he knew the decrease which had taken place in employment,
in wages, and profits throughout the whole country, and how
had he fulfilled his promise ?—( Cheers. ) He had never once
condescended to bring the state of he country before the House.
—( Cheers.) The Noble Lord, the colleague of the Right Hon.
Baronet, had moved for a Committee to inquire into the state
of the relations between master and labourer in the West In-
dies—another Committee had been Eitting:the whole session, to
inquire into the state of the negro population on the coast of
Africa—but no Committee had been appointed to take into
consideration the distressed condition of our own population,
(Cheers. ) Hon. Gentlemen opposite, who represented agri.
culture, thought that by remaining silent they should induce
k & beget 440 i 44, agricalturawistgict&wero itito Q 4.

AI

tress. Why, he would ask the Right Hen. Baronetthe repre- r
sentative of North Devon, if the rate of wages in his county
exceeded 7s. a week ?—( Cheers.) He would put the same '
question to the Members for Dorsetshire, Somersetshire, Glou-
cestershire, Wiltshire, and Hampshire, and yet they told them
that the Coin-law was for the benefit of the agricultural popula-
tion.
If the inhabitants of Bolton and Stockport believed that
their sufferings conduced to the comfort of the peasantry of the
agricultural districts, it might be some mitigation of their mis-
fortunes, but it only aggravated those misfortunes, to know that
the robbery that was committed on them was of no earthly
advantage to the labouring peasant, but was solely for the
benefit of the landlords.—(Cheers.) It was a subterfuge to
say that these laws were maintained for the benefit of the la-
bouring population.—(Cheers.) The county representatives
did not come there with clean hands. It was gross hypocrisy
to pretend that these laws benefited the labouring popula-
tion. Why, the lowest rate of wages, • for unskilled
hands, in the manufacturing districts, was twelve shil- 1
bugs a week ; and they would fain, by their land- I
lords' legislation, bringidown the rate of wages • for skilled I
hands in those districts to Ps. a week, and reduce them to the
same permanent state of distress to which they had already re-
duced the agricUltural districts. He hoped the distress
in the manufacturing districts was only temporary
*in the agricultural districts he knew it was
permanent, as far as the labourers were concerned.
Did they think that their sitting in silence there, as tf their la-
bourers were well paid, would screen them from the indiguation i
tif-the people ? By no means. There was a class of men in Lan- 1
cashire, :he unworthy successors of Watt, and Arkwright, and
Peel, who hung tike parasitical weeds at the feet of the aristo- 1
cracy, and who, the mere they were trampled on, the more they
flourished in their debased position. It was such men that told
the Right Honourable Baronet that the present distress was
but al passing cloud. Against the assertions of those
men he wariste the Right Honourable Baronet. They
but deceived him. Bat there was a class of men whose
statements as to the real state ot the country the Right
Honourable Baronet might and ought to believe—the Delegates
now in London, from various parts of the country, seeking to
devise a remedy for the existing distress. If they looked to
America they would see a means ot alleviating the distress by
opening an outlet for the manufactures of this country. Presi-
dent Tyler had vetoed the high tariff which had been proposed
in Congress. He saw the Hon. and Gallant Member for Li-
verpool (Sir . Howard Douglas) shake his headebut he could
tell the Gallant Officer that President Tyler had vetoed the
tariff:
Sir 1-1. DOUGLAS—President Tyler has not vetoed the
tariff, he has only suspended it temporarily.
Mr. COBDEN continued—Hatt he not been interrupted he
was just going to say what the Gallant Member had stated.
President Tyler had vetoed for a time the high tariff upon
our manufactures, and thtes eta otttletTor our roductiens was
created, which ought to be utel:: similar spirit by our
Itthig
Goierisment with respect to laws reg eing the import of corn.
It had been said that they were obstruc the public business.
That public business was the voting of the militia estimates, to
put down, he supposed, the starving people. He believed they,
might be better employed in finding them food.—(Cheers.)
Their shopkeepers acted more wisely than they did. The
shopkeeper who had a house at the corner of a street, opened
windows, to catch the tide of traffic.--( Hear.) Far otherwise,
and far less wisely, they acted with regard teAmerica.—( Hear.)
They commenced the business of the session- with a Cora-
law, and they had that night Fussed the Poor-law. • There was
something like poetic justice in the sequence. They had passed
the Poor-law, which he believed never would be necessary if
they only allowed' them to have recourte to the markets that
might be, but were not open to them. • The Poor-law was
originally devised to find raw material for the people to work
wit!:, but now they might have the raw material of the
new World, and they'woeld not take it. If a person had the
malice of a fiend, he might rejoice at the .mode in which they
were proceeding. The New Poor-law would not save their
estates. Their present policy would create an amount of po-
verty which would burst the workhouse walls.—(Hear, hear.)
The people were now lying by the sides of hedges and walls,
but when the winter came, where would they go to? If they
were driven ,from the ditch side by the terrors of the
bastsles, they would become banditti, or they must
be put itsto the workhouse.—(Hear, hear.) Such were
the fruits they had in store for them. He would say
one word to the Right Hon. Baronet before he sat down. The
Right Hon. Baronet was all powerful in that House, but he
might become so in the country, and he might be able to cot off
that bigoted section who now acted as adragehain on his career
if he. altered _ his policy. It had been said that the Right
Honourable Baronet did what he could. That, he
must say, was an equivocal compliment, for it was
at the expense of his honesty. He (Mr. C.) believed
that the Right Honourable Baronet was acting consci-
entiously. He was in principle a free trader, but practically
he was opposed to it. But the time was now come when those
principles should be adopted, and he believed that the Right
Honourable Baronet was the only person who could carry
them out without incurring the, risk of a revolution. The
Right Hon. Baronet might carry out the principles of
.a liberal
commercial • policy if he pleased to do so. 4 great respon-
sibility, therefore, devolved on the Right Bon. Baronet. It
was his (Mr. Cobden's) belief that if the 'House separated
without adopting some measure calculated to alleviate the gene-
ral distress, a state of confusion would inevitably follow during
the coming winter. The Right Hon. Baronet had it
in his power to remove that distress ; and if he took the course
which would lead to such a result, however much he might be
accused of deserting his party, let his answer be that he found
i distress and relieved it, that he found trade depressed and re-
vived it, that he found the people famishing and that he gave
them bread.—( Cheers.)
'l lie House then divided, and the numbers were—

For the motion ..... 156
Against it
Majority in favour of the motion --92
The House then went into Committee of Supply pro forma,
and immediately resumed.
The Committee of the Court of Exchequer (England) Bill
was postponed till Monday.
BONDED CORN.

The Bonded Corn Bill went through Committee, the Re-
port to be received on Monday.
The Fisheries (Ireland) Bill was read a third time, and
passed.
MANCHESTER, BIRMINGHAM, AND BOLTON PO-