The Sun.
London, England, 1842-03-15 00:00:00

obstruct the measure of the Right Hon. Baronet ; and, hay- Sunderland contended that no measure should be brought far-
ing already obtained a majority, he could not vote fur the ward, which would have the effect of interrupting the progress of
motion of his Hon. Friend. if his Hon. Friend showed that Government measures. That proposition was reasonable ; but
the land did not bear peculiar burdens, he would a,k, as a ne- then, on the other hand, he thought the Government ought to
cessary consequence, fur an alteration of the Corn laws. And give every facility on motion night for making a House; and
ou that ground also he would not support the motion. If the not to take advantage of a whipping oat to resist the motion
motion was to make the taxation morecqual, he, connected as he ( Bear, hear.) What did Mr. Canning say on that subject ?
was with an agricultural county, could riot object to it—( Hear, Mr. Canning sai.', he considered that the most important
hear )—hut, as he opposed the motion of the Hon. Member duties of a certain class of gentlemen connected with the Go-
for Wolverhampton, so on the same grounds would he oppose I vernment, such as Lords of the Treasury, under Secretaries of
the motion of his Hon. Friend.—(Cheers.) State, Clerks of the Board of Control, and gentlemen of that
Mr. VILLIERS did not think his lion. Friend brought for • genius—(Great laughter )—he eonsidered that their duties
ward his motion with any other view than the one he pro.. were divided into three classes ; their first duty was, to make a
lesser'. He believed the object was to inquire into the special House; then, second, to keep a House ; and then, third, to
burdens on land, but, if those special burdens were proved, it cheer the Minister.—( Great laughter.) It was too delicate a
would not, in his opinion, justify the Corn-laws.—( Hear, hear.) subject for the Right Hon. Baronet to mention to those Hon.
If such burdens did exist, let them be removed, but let them Gentlemen, and he was sure, therefore, that he would feel very
not be made an excuse for the Corn-law.—( Hear.) Ile would much indebted to him (Mr. 'l'. Duncombe) for the. allusion.—
not vote for the motion of his Hon. Friend, and, he believed, (Continued laughter.) Be thought they ought to know who
the discussion on the subject would be productive of good, he- was really responsible for making a House, that Hon. Gentle-
cause, it would open the eyes of the people, and men who gave notice of motions might not be defeated by being
the country would sec that these burdens were told, „'This is a Government night, and we must, therefore,
mere pretexts and excuses. It would he useless to ad- vote against you." He should certainly have voted with the
vance anything more than what his Hon. Ft iend had stated on lion. Member for Sheffield last Thursday, and not being like
the subject, but the Right Hon. Baronet refused all inquiry. I the Noble Lord (Lord Howick), he would vote for him on that
lie (Mr. Villiers) held in his hand the amount of exemption occasion.—( Hear, hear.)
which the landed interest obtained since the passing of the Sti angers were then ordered to withdraw, and the House di-
Corn-law. These exemptions took place with regard to horses, vided, when there appeared—
dogs, carts, &c. In the year 1816 the annual sum of 28,1691. For the motion ... .. ......... ... 115
was given up ;in 1819, 38,608/. ; in 1822, for husbandry Against it
horses alone, 47,1081. ; in 1823, 52,7921. ; in 1824, 6,776 ; in Majority against the motion —ll5
1825, 49,5591.; in 1832, 87,1001. :in 1833, 10,1101. ;in 1834, The House then went into Comittee on the Bill, Mr. Guireste
52,000/. ; in 1835,501.00/. ; in 1836, 60,000 ; making alto- in the Chair.
gether a sum of 985,824/, within a few pounds of one million The first clause was agreed to without discussion.
tie had also got the amount of agricultural stock insured at the On the second clause being proposed,
different insurance offices. It amounted to 51,997.751/., and Mr. VALENTINE BLAKE, pursuant to notice, rese to
not a single shilling duty was paid.—( Hear, hear.) The amount move ,tin consideration of the increasing an unexampled depres•
of duty on all other property was 995,7101. The Poor-law rate sion of trade, and the destitution consequent thereon, which
was said to be a pecul ar burden on land, and was much dwelt now unhappily prevails throughout the entire of
on by Hon. Gentlemen ; but to give the country an idea of the the manufacturing districts. the insertion of a
justice of the dernand for comnsation on that head, he clause to suspend the payment of all the specified
would select the parish of Marylebone, to show that the rate duties till from and after the Ist day of April, 1843."
varied according to the price of wheat. In the year 1832, the The Hon. Baronet went on to say that when he coggidered
price of wheat was 585., and the rate in that parish was 97,672/. ; the likelihood of thousands being sac• ificed by the pressure of
in 1833, the price of wheat was 325., and the rates fell to the present measure, and that the persons thus exposed to
93,634/. ; in 1834, the price of wheat was 465., the rate suffering had been the foundation of the trade and the pros-
was correspondingly reduced ;in Me the price was 395., the perity of this country, Parliament ought to pause. He re-
rate 53,4871. ; in 1837 the price was ses,, the rate 59,8001. ; gretted that the Noble Lord (Lord John Russell) had lost
in 1838 the price was 645., the rate 61,0911. ; in 1829 the the advantage he once possessed of wielding the destinies of
price was 705., the rate 63,2211. ; in 1840 the price was 695., this empire, and had thrown his power into the hands of the
the rate 76,355/.—(Hear.) That was what took place in one Right lion. Baronet at the head of her Majesty's Government,
single parish, and what occurred there occurred in other places. who had only to shake his ambrosial curls—(Laughter)—to
He might state an a proof of the absurdity of saying that the give the stamp of fate and the sanction of a god to any mea-
poor-rate was a peculiar burden upon land, that the amount of sure for the oppression of the people. With respect to po.
rate paid in London was greater than that paid in all Yorkshire. tato-flour, he mieht be permitted to say that the soil of Ire-
lie thought that the present was a time peculiarly fitted for land was particularly adapted to the growth of potatns, The
such an inquiry as that proposed by his Hon. Friend the Mem- constant succession of showers and sunshine in that country
ber for Wolverhampton. Now that they were about to im- favoured in an especial manner the growth of that root in it.
pose a new tax upon the nation it became them in every way It was well known in his (Sir V. Blake's) part of the 'country
to inquire into the burdens of the people, with a view, if Pos- that when a married pair had no children, the potato_( The
sible,_to their mitigation. He did not think any decision which rest of the sentence was lost amids the roars of
the House had come to on the subject of the Corn-law itself laughter that r. se from all sides of the Muse. )
could equal in injustice a refusal to grant the inquiry now 'There was another burden which had been alighted on in a
moved for.
former instance, that had been omitted in this. One burden
Lord HOWICK said, that before the House proceeded to a had been discovered in the fact, that the landed gentlemen
division upon the motion then under their consideration, he formerly had to keep She soldiers' wives.—( Roars of !alighted.. )
Y Were he not afraid of incurring the displeasure of the House,
wished to say a few words upon the subject. He entire!
agreed with the Hon. Member for Sheffield, that it was a he would give them some more particulars connected with the
point of very great importance to determine what were the subject on good authority. The Hon. Member then pro-
exclusive burdens borne by land. He thought that the subject ceeded to give the House a sketch of the natural history of
was one of very great importance to the House and the country the potato, stating that it was a root which grew wild
after so much stress had been laid upon it during the various
but was not generally cultivated till—some date
in South America, was brought to this country in
debates with respect to the Corn-laws. He was also willing 1588,
to admit that it was a very fair topic for Parliamentary in- which was lost amid the loud and general cries
quiry ; although lie thought there might be some doubt as to of question, which oompelled the Hon. Gentleman to conclude
whether a Parliamentary Committee would be a body which with proposing his clause, that Lo duty be paid on mentioncould satisfactorily institute the proposed inquiry. But still tation of corn till after the first of April, 1843. The
he was willing to assume that point ; he was willing to suppose of the date produced fresh bursts of laughter, amid which the
that a Committee could sift the question, and present a satisfaetorY lion. Member sat down.
report to the House with regard to it. But even making these two The motion was negatived without a division.
concessions to the Hon. Member for Sheffield, he confessed he Mr. J. I'ARKER rose to propose a clause which he be-
nh, lieved would have the effect of correcting ore of the great could not satisfy himself of the propriety of supporting
tion.—(Hear, hear. ) He was bound to admit the force of ob-
jections of the sliding scale. The observations of the Hon.
the arguments which the Right Hon. Baronet had urged Member were very indistinctly heard, but he was understood
against the time and manner in which the motion was brought to contend that the sliding scale in its present form, ren-
forward. He thought that not only the Government, but that tiered regular trade with distant ports almost impossible.
The trade thus became of a very speculative character, and it
the public had a very great interest in preventing those days
set apart for the transaction of public business by the Govern- precluded any trader from carrying on a regular system of
ment from being interfered with by the interposition of motions, commerce with those countries. A, clause, of the nature he
which, according to the forms of the House, ought to be is.
should have the honour to propose, would, he thought,
, cussed on those days assigeed for the motions of individual tend to obviate the objection. The clause was,
Members.-4 Hear, hear. ) He thought that would be a very also, founded on the representation of the Americas
great public inconvenience, because it was well known merchants of the Chamber of Commerce of Liverpool, stating
that by the practice of that House only two days the advantage of extending the time of taking the averages,
in the week were set apart for the transaction of that vast this, it was considered, would tend to increase the trade with
amount of public business which it was the duty of her Ma-
America. Ile only suggested his motion to the House as a
jesty's Government to bring under their notice. They well proposition ; he was not enamoured of his own clause,
knew the extreme difficulty which every Government expo- as he was aware of the great difficulties connected
rienced, whether it were composed of lion. Gentlemen en with the. subject.—( Ilear. ) The time occupied in
that side of the Nouse or the other, in obtaining the ne- rending a vessel to Odessa, freighting her and the voyage back,
eessary time for the proper discussion of measures deeply at- was not less than four months, and he could not include Odessa
fecting the public interest. They knew perfectly well that by unless he extended the period in his clause to that time. He
they therefore moved as a clause that it shall be lawful for " any
delaying and obstructing the discussion of those motions,
necessarily limited the number of useful and important mea- person, on payment of the duty en any quantity oft oreign corn,
sores which it was in the power of the Goverment to bring for- or on giving bond for the payment of the same, at the tate of ward. As the Member of a former Administration, he had duty then ruling, or on givieg bond for the payment of such
at the rate which shall be ruling on the day of clearing
himself less occasion to feel the extreme injustice of having duty
complaints made against him through the business they had out such corn from any foreign pint, to enter the aforesaid
submitted to the House, and of neglectine many im- quantity of corn, or any part thereof, for home consumptions
portant subjects while, at the same time,' the 'days required although not actually in bond, provided it be imported within
for the discussion of those subjects were taken from them by the a limited number of slays from the time of such entry."
interposition of other motions. He had a very strong opinion Sir ROBERT PEEL said that the Hon. Member had
upon that point. It was not for the interest of the public—he stated his clause to be rather obscure, and had just observed
said nothing of the interest of Government—that notice that he was not very much enamoured of his own proposition.
should he given which would tend to interfere with the re- He apprehended that the purport of the clause was this, that
gular progress of Parliamentary business, except in cases. of supposing the duty on corn was Is., the party importing might,
some great and special emergency Now he could not imagine on the payment of that duty on an unlimited number of quarters.
that such an emergency existed in the present instance. He enter that quantity for consumption. Thus, find rig the duty
really did not understand the ground upon which they were at Is., he might enter that quantity, •by paying twenty thou-
called on to adopt the motion in the manner in which it had sand shillings, or even without paying it, since he could do it
been brought forward. The Hon. Member for Sheffield said by giving his land for the payment, and had four months to do
he had given notice of his motion for Thursday last, but on it in. This appeared to him a most extraordinary proposi-
that day there was no House. Now he (Lord Howick) did not tion.—(Hear, hear.) In the first place, it would have a very
think that the Hon. Member could urge that as a ground of mrial effect in discouraging the bonding system.—
complaint against the Government. It was a usual practice (Her,a hear, and diners.) There would not be the least
with Members upon all sides to absent themselves when notice necessity for bonding corn at all ; there would not
was given of any motion they did not like to have discussed. ' be any encouragement for bonding corn, even at Rotterdam
No doubt there were more than 40 Members who took an interest or Antwerp, as it might be bonded at Odessa. It was not to
Y be necessary to pay the duty, it being merely necessary to give
in the otion of the Hon. Member for Sheld ; but if the
did not come and form a House they had nonce but themselves a bond for the payment ; this appeared to 'him a most extra-
to blame.—(Hear, hear, hear.) He agreed with the Hon. ordinary system to Introduce. It seemed to him, that if
Member that the subject was one deserving of serious con- frauds could be practised in the averages, this eideration ; but was it, therefore, necessary that they should clause would give fresh inducenagnts to practise
immediately and at once accede to his motion?—( Hear. ) them for not only could the party bonding corn, but all specu-
He (Lord Hewick) did not think it was. The charge which lators ; who undertook to pay the duty of Is. a quarter, having
the lion. Gentleman himself bad introduced into his motion four months to conduct their operations, might influence
proved, as the Right Hon. Baronet had justly observed, that the average prices. But this clause appeared to
he had himself abandoned as untenable the position that the be intended to benefit the
the United States art of Odessa.— p (Hear,
should be
hear.)
further consideration of the Corn Bill should be adopted until lie did not see why Odessa and
the report of the Committee, for which he moved, had been benefited at the expense of the ports of the Baltic. Of the
raseeented to the House. But if the course of legislation upon many propositions proposed by Hon. Gentlemen opposite, one
orn-laws, was not to be interrupted by the motion of was that 1,000,000 quarters should be admitted every year free
the Hon Gentleman, then it followed that the present was not of duty ; the one now before them was in effect to enable corn one of those cases of emergency, in which it was desirable that speculators to conduct their business at Odessa. lie would Suchard
a motion as that of the Hon. Member should be brought beg of those lion. Gentlemen to try and frame a whole Corn
forward in this particular shape, preventing the further consi- Ilsil themselves, and then they would ' see how difficult it
deration of a measure which the House and the country must was for him to balance all the opposing interests and plows
desire to see settled in one way or the other.—( Hear, hear.) concerned in this question. But he was sure the Hon. Gentle-
Those were the reasons which would induce him to give man's clause would defeat its object, for it would have the
his vote against the motion of the Honourable Member. effect of depressing the market. Ile (Sir R. Peel) must
although, if it had been brought forward on Thursday last, it oppose the clause.
was his intention to have supported it. He could not, for the Lord HOWICK supported the clause, as tending to tweak
l 1 rp ose of acting with those lion. Gentlemen, with whom he down the monopoly which otherwite the neighbouringisorts
purpose
acted, lend his sanction to a practice which, upon would have. The Right lion. Baronet taunted his Noble
Friend, and also the Hon. Member for Paisley, for ignoranee
e agreed
public grounds, and with a view to the permanent interests of
the country, he considered extremely prejudicial. H , of legislative routine, anti asked them to frame a Corn Bill
themselves. Now he (Lord tl. ) would say, that if his Hon,
with the Hon." Gentleman in disapproving of the Corn-law
introduced by the Government; and, in desiring to see the Friend, the Member for Sheffield, framed a Bill, it would be
time when sounder and wiser views would be generally enter- more simple, intelligible, and reasonable than the measure
i now before the House..-(Laughter and cheers.) If there
twined upon the subject, he firmly agreed with him in those
it was boeause it was encum-
views and wishes ; but he firmly believed that the course I were any fault in the clause,
which the Hon. Gentleman was now taking was net calculated 1 bered by the faulty principle of the Right Hon. Baronet-.
to promote the object he had in view. He did believe that a
'of this kind was calculated to conciliate the opinions of Mr. HASTIE referred to the speech of the Right Hon.
motion i (Laughter, and hear, hear. )
dispassionate people out of doors. He did not believe that 1
I Baronet on a former night, and endeavoured to show that the
that was the mariner in which they would be most likely to falling off in the American trade, which was only 6 per cent.
make a favourable impression upon public opinion, or to ob- on our whole exports, nor the operation of the Joint Stock
lain that support from the country at large, by which alone the Banks, whose bills did not exceed 1)60,000/. could have had no
cause in producing- the general distress, which the Right Hon,
principles of the Hon. Member for Sheffield, and of those
who thought with him, could be carried into effect.
Baronet had at last admitted.
Mr. WAK LEY wished to say a very few words upon the Mr. I'ARKER did not want to persevere in his clause, but
remarks which had fallen from the Noble Lord who had just would be happy to yield to a modification of it made by the
sat down, and the Right Hon. Baronet the First Lord of the Right lion. L'aronet himself.
Treasury. He should confess he was not pleased with the Sir 11. PEEL assured the Hon. Gentleman that he (Sir R.
doctrine laid down by the Noble Lord, with reference to mo- Peel) meant nothing in the least degree discourteous
or dis-
t.ions such as that. before the House. lie thought that doctrine respectful in the allusion he had made to them.
was pregnant with danger and utterly at variance with the Alp. p. SCROPE proposed a clause to the effect, that
Canconstituient practice
Tof the
Nobles Land with the
tha sptirit of the British foreign corn entered for consumption from ship be admitted on
on. hes he himself had the requost of the importer at the duty ruling on the day tits
Y which such ship cleared out from the port whence the corn
been a Member of an Administration, and that he had freentl
felt the inconvenience of motions like the present ; that be had was exported.
felt his progress used to be impeded by them. Now, he (Mr. Sir It. PEEL said that-there was one general, and, in his
Wakley) said so much the better.—(Laughter.) He was very mind, conclusive objection to the proposed clause, that it would
glad to hear that the Noble Lord's progress had been checked t effect a positive discouragement to the viarehausinstem in
and, h g sye believed, it would have been better for the country if it this country.
had been more completely checked.—( Renewed cheering.) Air. HAWES hoped the Right Hon. Baronet would give the
He was glad to find that the present motion offered a little of • clause a further consideration. It would have the effect of re.
struction to the Right lion. Baronet. It had elicited some medying one of the greatest evils of the sitting scales
useful facts in the course of the discussion that night; and these which was, that it excluded us, in an emergency, from being
facts would be spread throughout the country, and would give supplied from distant countries. He would recommend the
rise to instructive observation and reflection. The Right Hon. postponement of the clause for the present, that the l' ght
Baronet, in the course of the last Session, had reminded the lion. Baronet might more maturely weigh its probable effects.
House of the ancient Whig dootriine,,with reference LO opposi- Mr. S. WORfLEY opposed, and Mr. HOWARD supported
Tierney, who said that the amendment.
of .Mr.
op. pose every.
tion ; he quoted the language
the duty of an orpos _ thing And After a few words from Mr. THORNELY,
Mr. POULET SCROPE withdrew his amendment, and
propose nothing.' —(Laughter. )
Bowick) completely repudiated t :But the Noble Lord Lord(
that doctrine; and, according sh„lanse was agreed to.
to him, when any Members objected to a measure, they were Claise 3 was agreed to with some verbal amendments.
to allow it to pass in silence. That was a doctrine to which he Clause 4 was then agreed to.
(Mr. Wakley) could not subscribe. His opinion was, that On clause 5 being proposed,
when any Members disapproved of a measure introduced into Mr. LABOUCHERE wished to call the attention of the
that Honse, they ought to offer it a manly, open, and consistent Vice President of the Board of Trade to the clause which was
opposition. He should admit, however that the course pur. copied, word for word, from the existing law. On the other
sued by the Hon. Gentleman, the Member for Sheffield, was an evening the Right Hon. Gentleman had stated that a great por-
Y tion of the Canadian flour imported into this country was the
objectionable one. He should confess that, in his judgment, an
motion to he submitted to the House upon a great question, produce of American wheat. lie (Mr. Labouchere) had eon-
ought to be fairly put upon the papers ; and there ought not sidered that the wording of this clause was sufficient to prevent
1 any such surreptitious introduction, but on inquiry he found
to be one motion upon the notice-papers, and another in the
that such was The case, and, therefore, he would suggest the
Speaker's hands.--( Hear, hear, from the Ministerial benches.) i
That line of policy did not give a fair ground of contest upon propriety of amending the clause in such a manner as to remedy
the main question under discussion. It was not the course the abuse complained of.
which the Hon. Member usually pursued; but he had altered Mr. GLADSTONE agreed that the words of the clause
his motion in the present instance, on finding that it appeared sufficiently stringent to prevent the introduction of
did not exactly suit his purpose in its original form. American wheat under the guise of Canadian flour, but so.
He (Mr. Wakley) felt that a division upon the present motion cording to another of the Customs Acts, manufactured goods would be rather an unfortunate thing; and he proposed on the were always taken to be the produce of the country in which
subject his suggestion to the R9ht Hon. Baronet, that he they were manufactured, and under that clause the
should grant a Committee at another time. They wanted en- flour had been introduced as Canadian flour. If it should be
thought advisable. to introduce words, enacting that no flour
quiry now; but there would be no use now in going to a div.-
sion. His Hon. Friend would, no doubt, be defeated by a should be considered as colonial flour that was not manufacture&
large majority, although it would be desirable that they should
be acquainted with the special burdens upon land. from wheat grown in the colony, they might be introduced into
this clause.
No doubt the landed proprietorss of this country were greatly sir. LABOUCHERE thought it would be by no means de.
injured and oppressed, and were not in a state of luxury and sirable to re-enact a clause which had already proved ibo
independence.—(Laughter.) lie wished the Hon. Member :
rative, Pe•
for Sussex were in the house to tell them that the times are
,
Mr. S. O'BRIEN wished to ask the Secretary for the CO.
not what they had been, and that Darby and Joan no longer ,lonics or the Ili =ht Hon. Gentleman at the heed of the Go-
rode -upon the same horse.--( Renewed laughter.) Every one, g
corn to-be imported duty free, or at a nominal rate of duty, pro_
vernment if there would be any objection to permit colonist
however, who reflected upon the consequences of the proposed
cern
imthic)orCtoeldmisniatlo
tiLieegi:ollaotnuyrr
ev.q•ouualldinplaacemoaundtutoty
theo n pro t foreign
ec .
income tax must see that it would press severely upon the in-
dustry of the country, while the great landed proprietors would vcoidr
escape scot free.—(Cries of " No, no." He hoped, however, tion given to home-grown corn ?
that, under all the circumstances of the case, his Hon. Friend , No answer liavAng been given to the question,
the Member for Sheffield would ask the permission of the House 1 The clause was agreed to, with some verbal amendments,
to withdraw his own motion.—( Hear, hear.) Clauses 6 and 7 were then agreed to. Mr. T. DUNCONIBE wished to say a few words in reference On clause 8 being proposed,
Ito what had fallen from the Noble Lora, the Member for Sun- , Mr. WODEHOUE asked if there would be any objection
derland. The Noble Lord said that if this, motion had been to introduce a clause ordeting Consuls to inform the Germ•
brought forward on Thursday, he should have voted for it. Ile ineut immediately of any prohibition being issued by Foreign
(Mr. Duncombot knew not whether the constituents of the Powers against the exportation of corn, and to the publication.
Noble Lord would understand his approving of a motion on of
those despatches in the London Genetic?
Thursday last, and opposing it that night.—( Hear, hear.) The answer was totally inaudible la the gallery.
He wished to know who was responsible for making a House. The clause was then agreedo. •
—(Laughter.) His Hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield , On clause 9 being proposed,
was to suffer on that occasion, because there was
_ilooseHouuns_e last ;
Captain PECHELL rose to propose the following. insertion
Thursday. He (M-. Duncombe) was
oned
of.
those
that House,rth-
foreign core,
iii the clause :—" That evergvessel tuiperfing '
nate four-and-thirty Gentlemen who came down
. and which shall export Braish manufactured goody shall,
in the full expectation of seeing the landed interest, groaning upon proof of such eltKrtation, be waded to a drawback of
under the burdens which they are supposed to suffer-- such part of the kity which was payable upon such earn at the
Hon. Friend on that occasion • (Laughter)—ready to assist his • ,
time of its entering into port, as hereinafter mentioned • that
but not one of those Gentlemen were present. _(Bear, hear. )is to say, if the value of the goods So exPo---- r&dshall,' according
He recollected that Mr. Carmine had, on one occasion, said to the fair market price
,thereof, to be certified by
be
that it was the duty of the Government always to make a 1 , equal Ile or .
exceed the valtte of the corn so ire,
a House. —( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord the Member for i .