The Sun.
London, England, 1842-05-04 00:00:00

all the trouble and expense -which ,they !bad gone to' ire
preparing this petition, whilst they said that they were
not represented in that House, they ought to be allowed
the opportunity which they demanded, of making their
wishes known is their own words.—(Hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL had not intended to take a part in
the discussion upon this petition ; but the number of the
signatures was so great that he could not refrain from
th duty of coming down to the House to state his re-
spect for the petitioners, and his abhorrence of the doc-
trines which their petition contained.—(Much Cheer-
ing.) He disclaimed all that the Hon. Member for Mon-
trose charged upon the opponents of the motion before
the House.—(Hear, hear.) He disclaimed all want of
sympathy with the thousands of his countrymen who
were now undergoing the greatest distress. He felt com-
passion for their distress and admiration for their for-
titude ; but when the Honourable Member asked the
House to comply with the motion, the Honour-
able Member implied that to concede the motion
would place the people in a better condition.
He (Lord John Russell) must be permitted
to deny the position altogether. It had been said that
there would be no evil in bringing the nature of the mo-
narchy under the discussion of that House now. What
would be the result? If that House went into a new in-
quiry as to the whole institutions of the country, as to
whether faith should be kept with the public creditor,
and whether the property in land should be preserved,
what would be the consequence, if this House drove all
the ancient and venerable institutions of the country
loose as matters of discussion, if not of destruction?—
(Hear, hear.) Would it not be to transfer the pro-
perty and capital to other countries, and to di-
minish the funds for the employment of labour
here ? His Right Honourable Friend had gone
into the various allegations of the petition, and had
pointed out very conclusively the several points. The
petitioners said that a debt was imposed by persons
who had no right to bind them (the petitioners) to its
payment.—(Hear, hear.) His Right Hon. Friend
pointed out also that the property in land and machinery
was complained of by the petitioners, and it was said
that in pointing these out, his Hon. Friend was making
accusations aninst the people of the United Kingdom.
He (Lord J. Russell) denied that allegation. But the
Hon. Member for Bath, perhaps safely for his own
argument, but not fairly to his Right Hon. Friend,
informed the House that the petition was drawn
up by a malignant and cowardly demagogue
—(Here there was a cry of " No," and some murmuring
in the House, when Mr. Roebuck stood up, and, as was
understood, acknowledged the expression.) Well, then,
the Hon. and Learned Member rim- Bath had destroyed
the character of the petition by giving that character
of the person whom he supposed to be its author. Had
not the Hon. and Learned Gentleman in thus attacking
the petition made a charge against tliose three millions
of persons who signed it ?—(Hear, hear.) Had he not
attacked them as much as his Right Hon. Friend ? But
the Right Hon. Gentleman said that the House might
throw aside the allegations of the petition without
refusing the prayer. But he • would ask the
Right Honourable Gentleman might not those who
signed the petition be also misled so as to
elect as a Member of Parliament the person who
framed it 2—(Cheers,) An Hon. Member had said that
in ancient times the people met in the market-place and
elected those who were to make laws for them. That
was true, and it was also true that this was a great pri-
vilege. But if the people were induced to elect as la-v-
-makers men like the framers of this petition, they would
be deprived of any remedy, and they would contri-
bute to the overturning of all the foundations of pro-
perty which they themselves expected, and that regard
for the law which was truly said to be their characteristic
would soon be at an end. It was quite clear that the
object of the author of that petition was to wipe out
the whole of the National Debt with a sponge,
for he denied that it was national, and said that the
people had no right to pay it. Now he (Lord J. Rus-
sell) believed that if' you would go into any market-
place and collect a crowd, and show them that the pub-
lic debt was contracted upon the national faith, and that
the holders were many of them were widows and or-
phans who became possessed of that property
within the last ten years, he believed that the majority
would reject the proposition for such a spoliation.—
(Hear, hear.) But he was not so sure but that they
might by some cry of the moment be so misled as to
elect men who would be guilty of that spoliation,
which the people, if they understood it, would never
consent to.—(Hear, hear.) It was certainly a matter of
great difficulty to determine who should be entrusted
with the franchise, but for his part, he believed that
in giving the trust of electing Members of Parliament,
they should combine property, intelligence, and know-
ledge. He would not say that those who at present held
that trust were the very best to whom it could be com-
mitted ; but he believed that they afforded a better
security for the institutions of the country, and a better
security for the steady progress of liberty, than
could be obtained by granting at once Universal Suffrage.
That was the plain and broad grounds on which be
rested his opposition to the motion. He was aware that
it was said that males of a certain age had an indefeasi-
ble and inalienable right to elect their representatives in
the Commons' House of Parliament. Now he could
never understand that indefeasible and inalienable right.
—(hear, hear.) It appeared to him that the question
of the franchise was a question to be defined by the in-
stitutions and the laws of the country. He saw no
more right a person of twenty-one years had to elect
Members of Parliament than he had to be a jury-
man ; they might just as well say that every man
of a certain age had a right to sit upon a jury
upon difficult and intricate questions of law or property;
they might even as well say that every man had a right
to exercise the judicial functions, as was the case in
some-of the republics of antiquity. If it were for the
good of the people at large, for the welfare of the nation,
for the advancement of good government, that a certain
number of persons, defined by certain limitations of pro-
perty, should have the right to elect Members to Parlia-
ment, and if it would be disadvantageous to the com-
munity that the right should be exercised in the form of'
Universal Suffrage, he then said, let the good of the
people at large prevail ; the matter was one upon which
the Legislature should decide as upon everything else,
and no inalienable right could be claimed against that
which the public good prescribed. The Hon. Gentleman
who had spoken last said that his (Lord John Russell's)
Right Hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh had given
a terrific representation of the people of England—that
he had represented them as " sanguinary," and as it
they were ready for destruction and rapine. Now his
Right Hon. Friend had said no such thing. For his
part he thought it was very likely that at many of these
elections they would find, even if they had Universal
Suffrage established, that a respect for "property, a re-
spect for' old habits, and a general regard for the Consti-
tution of the country, would produce elections not
very different from those which took place now
that property was one of the qualifications
required for the franchise. But, although that might he
generally the case, he did not think, in the present state
of the education of the people—he would not then say
whether that objection might ever be removed—that
they could feel assured that there might not arise periods
of popular ferment when, under some peculiar circum-
stances, Members would be returned to that House
whose votes would not be in accordance with the prin-
ciples of the Constitution, but would lead to its destruc-
tion and would shake the security of property. The
British Constitution was, in his eyes, too precious,
and the arrangements of our social system were
at the same time too intricate, to allow him
to put them to such hazards.—(Loud cheering.)
He could well conceive that in the United States of
America, the only country which he could at all compare
to this for the enjoyment of liberty, and the full fruits
of civilization—he could well conceive that in that coun-
try, where there was no aristocracy, where every office
was elective, where there was no Established Church,
where there was no accumulation of property, Universal
Suffrage might be exercised without injury to order,
without injury to the general security of society. But
in this country, where there were so many institutions,
which, while he believed them to be of the utmost value
in holding society together, were at the same time in
the possession of property—he spoke of such institutions
as an aristocracy ; and the Established Church, which,
being in possession of great property, might be held up
as prizes to people in distress—he did not think that, in
such A country, it would be safe all at once to destroy
the existing system of representation, and to establish
Universal Suffrage in its. place. Acting upon those
opinions, he could not assent to that which the Hon. Gen-
tleman, who had last spoken.- had represented-as a:simple
r 3 er thatYthe petitioners should be heard at the bar.'
eClid not so understand the question.—(Hear, hear.)
He thought the Honourable Member for Bath had put
it more fairly in saying it was the Charter to which
they had to say " aye," or "no," that night. What did
he find stated by the petititioners themselves ? They
had stated, at 11.41 length, what they considered to be
their grievances ; and they concluded their prayer in
these words :—" Your petitioners, therefore, exercising
their just
shouldjust constirteumtieodnyal
trhieghmts,any gross and manifest demand that your Hon.
complain, by imme-
edviailtselyo,fwwithhiocuht alteration,yo ur
petitioners deduction,o f
Moa e addition,AdutAdults,
Votepass
rPopeoerptlye'sQCuahlairfitecar
Equal Electoral Dis-
into law the document entitled the People's
waS certainly very plain.—
(Hear,
but, at the same
which
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the
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shouldwa s svaeyr,y'rexplicit;
peremptory. That was
not a demand merely to be heard at the bar,
Mr. DUNCOMBE intimated, that the demand to be
heard at the bar was also one of the prayers of the
petition.
Lord J. RUSSELL admitted, that the petitioners
asked to be heard at the bar ; but immediately after-
wards, he found the other words he bad just read. They
asked to be allowed to explain their views ; but they asked
it for the purpose of establishing the Charter. Now he could
not believe that any Counsel, or any agents, would per-
suade him to grant the different points of the Charter.
He should vote in opposition to their adoption, what-
ever might be the speeches made at that bar. And he
therefore thought himself bound at once to put an end
to any misunderstanding—(Hear, hear)—and not to en-
deavour to hide his vote by any pretence that he wished
to hear the explanations of counsel, He believed it
would be better for the future welfare of the people that,
if the House did not mean to grant the prayer of the
petition, they should at once state to the petitioners
that a compliance with their wishes would tend to shake
the security of property, would tend to increase
the privations of which theY complained, would
endanger that constitution of society. which, coni-
plicated and intricate as it was, had produced so many
bWsings to the country ; that to the House was entrusted
the grave responsibility and the important duty of legis:-
luting on behalf of these kingdoins, and that in the
charge of that solemn duty they felt bound to put a ne-
pave upon the proposed plan.--(Cheers.) - •
Sir R. PEEL said than although he hoped, he should
be 'exposed 'to no = misconstruction W he had remained
ilent upon that occasionryet'irom the course which the