The Sun.
London, England, 1827-06-09 00:00:00

opinions he had entertained while he eat in that House
to the cause, the petitioners had not called upon him

to propose such a measure to their Lordships. To such
an inquiry, he would answer, that the same reason which
had prevented him fiom agitating the question for thirty
years, now prevented hint from calling on their Lordships
to institute farther proceedings. He was afraid it would
not be attended with success, and he would not agitate the
subject in Parliament, because he was not sure that at pre-
sent any advantages would be attained by it, and because
the petitioners had not called on him to propose any far-
ther proceeding to their Lordships. Having said thus much
on the merits of the petitioners, he would explain why
the petitioners had now come before their Lordships. It
was from not _expecting to obtain relief that the peti-
tioners had remained for a long time silent, under the
unjust stigma, which was on the face of it unreasonable,
`awl an insult. They now held it right to call their Lord-
ships' attention to this great question, because, at least
the petitioners who had signed the first petition he should
present, considered that they had been aspersed, when it
had been stated that they were inimical to granting con-
cession to another party, Whose claims had been more fre-
quently of late before their Lordships.—(Hear, bear,
hear.)—With respect to the parties who now made an ap-
plication to their Lordships, through him, to remove their
grievances, he was instructed to say, he believed of every
individual who bad signed the first petition, that they were
not opposed to the Catholic Claims ; and he had more than
once presented petitions from them, he would not say ex-
actly in favour of those claims, but founded on a better
principle, and supplicating their Lordships to sweep away
from the Statute Book all disabilities on account of religious
opinions.—(llear, hear.)---116 was instructed also to say
that none of those congregations," of Which the petitiOners
were the representatives, had, at any time, or in any shape
or manner, expressed to Parliament a contrary opinion or
wish to that contained in the petition ; and they continued
to maintain the principle that it was unconstitutional 'and
unjust in any manner to interfere with the rights 'of con-
science. The Second petition he had to present was from
a Congregation of Dissenters at Manchester ; and he could
not, perhaps, better inform their Lordships of
what the opinions of those petitioners on this
subject were, than by reading them an extract
from the letter he had received with the petition.
His Lordship accordingly read a short extract, stating in
substance that the petitioners, in asking rights for them-
selves, thought they should be unworthy to approach their
I Lordships, if they did not wish to see imparted to all men
the common rights of citizens apart from any reference to'
their religious opinions. He believed such to be the ge-
neral fundamental opinion of the old Dissenters of England ;
but they were to be distinguished from a body of more
modern Dissenters, who were not really Dissenters from
the tenets and doctrines of the Church of England, among
whom he believed there were a great number who were
adverse to the Roman Catholic Claims. It was but justice
to say of the individuals whose petitions he-had to present,
that they asked nothing for themselves they did not wish
to see given to others.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH expressed the great satisfac-
tion with which he had beard from his Noble Friend that
the Catholics and the Dissenters had now united ; for
they ought to be convinced, that neither Catholics nor
Dissenters would ever succeed till their claims were enfor-
ced by unanimity.
Lord ELDON said, if it was intended that all argument
on the subject should be postponed to some future period,
it was not quite correct that observations should be ad-
dressed on one side to the House, when that side would not
enter into the full discussion of the subject.
The Bishop of CHESTER thought the subject of too
great importance to be discussed incidentally. The Noble
Baron, had through mistake, greatly misrepresented the
nature of the Test and Corporation Acts. The persons
who voted for the passing of these Acts certainly did not
mean to stigmatise or insult any body of religionists ; nor

TROOPS IN PORTUGAL.
His Majesty's most gracious Message having been read,
Lord DUDLEY rose. He hardly thought it necessary
to trouble their Lordships in moving an humble
Address, in answer to the Message they had just heard
read ; at the same time he did not think it consistent
with his duty, nor respectful to their Lordships, to abstain
from saying a few words. The subject to which the ad-
dress hail reference, and all the details connected with it,
had upon a former occasion been explained to the
House by the Noble Lord then at the bead of the Colonial
-Department, and he (Lord D.) now regretted his absence.
The proposition made on that occasion by the Noble Earl,
met with the general concurrence of the House. The vote
passed without a single dissentient voice. All those Noble
Lords agreed in it, who differed from the Government at
the time on many points of general policy. Both the
Noble Baron (Lord Holland), 'and the Noble Marquis
(Lansdowne), who then sat on that (the Opposition) side of
the House, and did not give their support to the Govern-
ment, still readily acquiesced in the motion, feeling that the
honour and good faith of the country were to be main-
tained. Above all, it was supported by that great General
and Statesman, whose authority was most entitled to the
consideration of their Lordships, for he spoke of the state
of a country which he had guided by his counsels, and
protected by Isis arm.—(Hear, hear.)—Nor could it be
ever forgotten that it was owing to the vigour of mind and
energy of action displayed by that celebrated person, that
the country of which he spoke had achieved her freedom.
—He thought that the sending of troops to Portugal was
imposed on us by the calls of honour and of national
faith. The Noble Lord could assure the House there was
hardly ever any measure which in so short a time
raised the character of England over all Europe
as an interference with Portugal. It scold per-
haps be unjust that any Chang a had taken place in their
Lordships' opinions, since.- their attention was last
called to the
.subject. Ills Lordship, after saying
that the presence of our troops had saved us from
a war calamitous to us, and dangerous to Europe, laid
that the same circumstances which made our in
in the first instance, necessary, still
existed in a mitigated degree. Negoeiations were
now going on between Spain and Portugal, un-
der the sanction of England and France, which
were likely to end in an arrangement that would relieve us
from the necessity of keeping our troops there,—(Hear,
hear, hear)—but -as the precise time was not
known when that arrang anent would take place, it be-
came expedient to provide for the maintenance of our
troops there, lest the premature withdrawal of them would
cause an immediate recurrence of that state of things which
had rendered their presence in Portugal necessary.—
He knew any thing said in the face of this House was said
in the face of Europe ; and therefore he wished it to be
distiuctly understood, that the English troops were not
sent to Portugal for an- ostensible purpose. It was not
for protecting Constitutional Portugal, or for annoying
despotic Spain, that' our troops were sent, but for protec-
ting our most ancient Ally—our Ally by treaty and po-
litical expediency. As to the papers, of which a Noble Lord
spoke, it was often as difficult to explain the reasons for
withholding papers as to produce those papers. If the
Noble Lord 'wished for the production of papers calculated
to make out a case against Spain, lie thought his Noble
Friend must perceive that it would not be expedient to
produce such papers. Two Ambassadors from Spain
engaged in arranging terms of negotiation, and to pro-
duce papers snaking out a case against Spain, would be
to :prevent that desirable and amicable adjustment of
differences which he most sanguinely anticipated.—
The Noble Viscount in conclusion moved that an humble
Address be presented to his Majesty, thanking him for his
Message, and assuring him of the readiness of that House
to comply with the recommendation in the Message.
Earl GREY said he did not rise for the purpose of op-
posing the Address, but for the purpose of making some
remarks on the -statement of the Noble Viscount, with
which he must confess, lie was disappointed. He certainly
thought it would not be right to press for the production
of any papers. Under the circumstances stated by the
Noble Lord, be was sure there was quite sufficient to sa-
tisfy the House. He was happy to hear that there were
negociations of an amicable nature now in progress, and
would not press for any further communication at this
season ; but must say, that be regretted that no greater
advancement had been made in this work of pacification
and security, and that his Majesty's Ministers were not
now prepared to say that this great and important work
was terminated. If he felt some disappointment, it was
induced by the nature of the Message, and the little explana-
tion which had been given of the object it had in view. It
he understood the Message rightly, they were called on for
a vote of credit fur no less a sum than half a million of
money, for the support of the troops now in Portugal.—
He believed that the number of those troops was about
5,000 men ; he was unable to conceive, therefore, the
reason why this sum was required, when, from the best
calculations he had been able to obtain (and he believed
they were accurate) the whole expence of that force, in-
cluding their pay and clothing, amounted to 160,000/.,
or, at the utmost, 200,0001. per annum, and which had
been already provided for in the usual grant for the army.
—He contended, that there should be no additional
expence for the detachment of our army now in Por-
tugal. If they had remained at home, the sum he
had mentioned would be sufficient for their mainte-
nance. It might be said that their employment was at-
tended by some additional expences, such as the commis-
sariat and forage departments. But he was told that the
most ample allowance for these extra expences would not
exceed 60,000/., making the whole expenditure to amount
,to 260,000 k It did not therefore appear that there was
any grounds for this additional call on Parliament, unless
the sum required was for some other purpose besides that
of maintaining our troops in Portugal. In the arrange-
ments for this year, it would also appear that an addi-
tional sum had been voted under the head " Army Extra-
ordinaries." He might tire their Lordships with this
; but they would see that it was useful, as showing
that the whole expence for the troops in Portugal had been
already providesl for, and that the call now made for main-
taining an army of 5,000 men was equal to that which
would be sufficient for 20,000. It did excite in his mind
some alarm ; because, instead of his Majesty's Ministers
coming down to their Lordships with a statement that the
employment of the force which had been sent out bad been
effective, they now called on their Lordships, foreseeing
dangers of greater extent, to place at his Majesty's dis-
posal the means of providing for a fqrce infinitely greater
than the former. He felt also some disappointment at this
late period of the session, when Parliament were about to
separate, that no further progress had been made in the
negotiations which he had alluded to, and no further expla-
nation afforded to account for the delay which had taken
place. The Noble Viscount bad said that the success of
those negotiations might, in a great measure, depend on
their details not being disclosed, that no obstacle might
render that adjustment more difficult—an adjustment on
which the safety of Europe might depend. On that ground
alone, be would abstain from pressing for further explana-
tion, but he must at the same time reserve to himself the
right of questioning hereafter the conduct and policy of His
Majesty's Ministers on the whole question. And now he
could not help reverting to a part of the speech of the
Noble Viscount, which did not seem very consistent. Towards
the conclusion, be stated that it was desirable that the prin-
ciple on which our forces were sent out should be distinctly
understood. He stated that our troops were not sent out
to protect constitutional Portugal, or to annoy despotic
Spain, but on the grounds of treaties and a castes frederis,
with our ancient ally. That he understood to be the prin-
ciple on which our troops had been sent out,—and from
that principle he should not have dissented, Init he thought
that the casus fiederis was not made out,—and that the
independence of Portugal was to be preserved to prevent a
power from obtaining the preponderance over the whole
Peninsula. He thought that the declaration that our troops
were not sent out to impose any particular forums of Govern-
ment, to put up one party or to pull down another, was
not quite consistent.
Lord DUDLEY, in explanation, said, that he had not
stated that the insurgents had been put down, and their
attempts rendered abortive; but that their attempts, if
not openly supported, had been connived at by the Spanish
Government.
Earl GREY was happy to receive any explanation, but

, •
.. -...
41
did not 41C,ii- ► • •k• ••, _ • •:111 1111 view of the
subject ': Thee irit:St-,0,, -': focs'.. to : e,*) support our
ancient ally i;ut Jefti4ll. ' .;•iinetl7; ital we had no-
thing to d0.:4-01174,1Wr• '-tiak.,yi• titation of Portu-
gal was not oue,warklsk. ".t.--‘r,' . emended it, whether
good or bad—whether by the wish of the people or not—
whether it was supported by one party or the other—or
whether Don Pedro had a right tp dictate a constitution to
Portugal or not,--with all this we had nothing to do. It
was a question for Portugal to decide, and any interference
on our part would he a violation of their national rights.—
He said thus much to explain his feelings and opinion on the
subject ; but in looking at this question he must look back
at the cause which rendered our interference necessary. Our
policy was now altered, but the fact was that we should
never have suffered the invasion of Spain by the French ;
and he trusted that the effect of our negotiations would be
to repair that greaterror in our foreign policy. He should be
well satisfied if the result of those amicable negotiations
should be the evacuation of Spain by France, which we
should never have submitted to. The Fren,•,h had now
been there four years. What their pretext for remaining
was, he knew not. Originally they professed to come to
rescue the Monarch from the hands of a faction, who, by
means of the army, overpowered the wishes of the people.
The allegation was, that in general the people were dis-
posed towards a monarchical government, by which they
were kept in subjection. That object had been effected by
the French : the rebellion bad been suppressed. The trai-
tors, as they had been esteemed by some, had been exe-
cuted ; or, as they had been deemed by others, those suf-
fering patriots had suffered, or were dispersed.over the face
of Europe, deprived of their rank and propeity, in a state
of destitution and wretchedness, which rendered them real
objects of compassion. There was, therefore, no pretence
continued
now for the French- to remain any lodger in Spain, if the
Tiel 1 favourabletinued to
to
o thee
.
monarchical
allegation
government. true that
ripueot
theyple w
still
copy Spain, retaining military possession of her fortresses.
He trusted, however, that at no distant perio&they would
evacuate that country. And here he could not help Iv;
verting to the singular situation in which we were places.
We were told repeatedly, over and over again, that the die+
ferenees between Spain and Portugal were occasioned by
the people of Spain preferring a monarchical government,
while those of Portugal were attached to the constitution
which had been granted to them : yet by this singular
facility the French kept possession of Spain to support the
wishes of the people, while we occupied Portugal for a
similar purpose. These were the errors and difficulties in
which the people and nation were placed, by departing
from sound principles. He trusted that we should return
to those principles ; but he regretted that a consummation
so devoutly to be wished for had been so long delayed.
He regretted that it was now necessary to strengthen the
hands of his Majesty with additional powers to effect that
desired object. He had not intended to proceed to this
length, but he had been induced to say thus much
in order to explain the grounds on which he, assented to
this motion ; at the same time reserving to himself to ques-
tion the whole policy which had dictated these proceedings,
and which, he contended, originated in the error which
rendered them necessary.
Lord GODERICH wished to say a few words with re-
spect to some of the observations of the Noble Earl. The
Noble Earl had reserved to himself the right to question,
at some future time, the policy of the measures, which had
induced these proceedings, and nothing could be more
consistent, The only point on which he seemed to object
was, on the necessity of strengthening the power in his
Majesty's hands, which he seemed to think was with 4
view to providing further reinforcernente; but that was not
the object for which the grant was required. The Noble
Earl was perfectly accurate in what he had stated with re-
gard to the army estimates having been increased this year
under the head of extraordinariee, but it was impossible.
under that head, to include a specific vote for this object.
The reason why the army extraordinaries had exceeded this
year the amount of preceding years, arose from circum-
stances wholly independent of the transmission of part of
our military force to Portugal. It was in consequence of
the expences of some of our colonial establishments, which
it was deemed advisable to wind up, that the additional vote
was required under the head of army extraordinaries, which
had therefore.no reference to the occupation of Portugal by
the British troops. It was impossible to say that
500,000/. was the exact sum that would be necessary for
those expences. If the Noble Earl went into the details,
he would find the expense of maintaining a corps of troops
in another country much greater than the expellee amain-
taining them in barracks in this country. If the vote of
credit was taken for a sum insufficient for the purposes
Ministers would be placed in a very unpleasant
situation. The proposition would have been brought fors
ward at a much earlier period, but for circumstances which
hail occurred, and which had considerably impeded the
usual course of business. The vote was not intended for
the purpose of facilitating any extended operations, which
he thought his Noble Friend had sufficiently explained.
..The Address. was agreed to.
.. _. - SALE- OF GAME BILL, .
Their Lordships went into a Committee neon this Bill.
After some verbal Amendments were made, the House re-
sumed, and the Bill was ordered to be ptinted with the
Amendments.
Adjourned to Monday. ,

HOUSE OF COMMONS, FRIDAY, :Elixir 8.
The SPEAKER took the Chair at sour o'clock this of

TEST AND CORPORATION ACTS.

Mr. W. WYNN presented a petition from the county
of Montgomery, for the repeal of the Test and Corporation
Acts.

Similar petitions were presented for the repeal of those
Acts from a Dissenting Congregation in Jewlia-street, by
Alderman Wood ; from Buxton, by Mr. Munday; from
several places in Cornwall, by Mr. Pendarves; from a
Congrcgation of Scotch Presbyterians, in Wells-street.
Marylebone, and from Horsham, Wilts, by Mr. Easthope ;
from the Protestant Dissenting Ministers of Kent, and of
three places in Yorkshire, by Lord Milton ; from Beverley,
by Mr. Stewart; from a Dissenting Congr,:gation in
Worship-street, London, by Mr. John Wood ; from Maid-
stone, by Mr. Robarts: and from several places in tha
county of Stafford, by Mr. Lyttleton.
Mr. G. DAWSON presented petitions from the Parish
of Kilburn, in the County of Donegal, and from the United
Presbyterian Synod of Down against any further conces-
sions to the Roman Catholics.

Mr. DAWSON also presented a petition from the Shoe-
makers of Dublin, praying that no alteration should be
made in the manner of choosing Sheriffs for that city.
Mr. DOWNIE presented a petition from Sterling pray-
ing the House to resist every application made by the
Papists.
Mr. PERCIVAL brought up the 6th and 7th Reports
of the Commissioners of Irish Education, which was or-
dered to he printed.
Mr. H. HUTCHINSON presented a petition from
Cork, against the Salmon•Fisheries' Bill.
Mr. O'NEIL withdrew his notice of a motion for Mon-
, day next, on the formation of the present Ministry.