The Sun.
London, England, 1845-06-02 00:00:00

Wood there will be a narrow gauge, as well as a broad gauge rail,
and taking into consideration the saving of fifteen miles by the
broad gauge line, I think the Great Western line is entitled to the
preference for the South Stafford district. When I say that, lam
assuming the engineeering difficulties to be the same. Indeed, I
more than think so—l am sure it is the best line of the two.
There is no danger in laying down the broad guage with the
narrow. About six or eight years since I proposed the laying
down of the broad guage on the narrow guage
fhe CHAIRMAN—Where was that ° Witness—lproposed to have
it laid down at Stratford, where the Northern and Eastern joined

the Northern Counties Railway.
The CHAIRMAN—Was that recommendation carried out ? Wit-
ness—No it was not. As regards the public the broad gauge
should not be kept back. As regards my own interests, were I

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governed by them, I should prefer tae narrow to the broad gauge;
my interest would lead me to give the narrow gauge my support.
Mr. COCKBURN—WeII , then, you are the more valuable to us as
a witness.

Witness—My attention was some time ago directed to a line of
railway from Landon, through Worcester and North Wales, to

Holyhead.
The CHAIRMAN—Did you form an opinion at that time between
the importance of the line you were called upon to consider and the
existing line to Holyhead, as to making Port Dynllaen the packet

station to Ireland.
Witness—l considered that the Holyhead station was the best
but I also gave it as my opinion that Port Dynllaen was a very fine

natural harbour and capable of great improvement.
Cross-examined by Mr. AUSTIN—Those who accompanied me
at that time were divided as to the superiority of both harbours.
Some reported in favour of Dynllaen and others in
favour of the Holyhead. I was moat decidedly in
favour of Holyhead. The last railway that I gave up
was the London and York last year: The last one that I con-
structed was the Hull and Selby, several years ago. lam new em-
ployed by the Birmingham Canal Company. I understand it is
iutended that a line of railway should be laid down along the banks
of the canal, but I know nothing more. The course of the line is

not fixed yet.
By the Criateasax—l think Mr. Brunel would be unwise to
pledge himself as to a locomotive or an atmospheric line for North
Wales, until he has ascertained the result of the great experiment
with regard to the atmospheric which is about to be tried.
Reexamined by Mr. C•CIBURN-1 think the company which
had the line from London to Worcester would be more likely to
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carry on the whole line than any Independent company
which might take it up. Unless it is done in that
way, there is no great probability of Its being done at all.
I do not think the Birmingham Company would do it, because any
passenger going by that line would be taken from the trunk line.
I think this line an object of national importance. Looking at the
question as a large public question, I think of the plan of the two
gauges to Wolverhampton, that to. Abbott's Wood is the best for

SouthiStaffordshire.
Mr. V. STUART—Is that founded on your opinion that the
communication with Oxford is the best for South Staffordshire, or
merely on the fact that there will be a saving of 15 miles ?
Witness—l believe that it would be more advantageous to
South Staffordshire to have the communication open with Oxford.
Examination continued—l consider the broad gauge best for
great velocity. I have travelled fifty.seven miles an hour within
the last week on the broad gauge. This velocity has never been
attained on a narrow gauge. The tour-feet eight-inch gauge can
never accomplish the same speed as the broad gauge.
Mr. AUSTIN then drew the attention of Mr. Walker to the pas-
sage in his report, in which he says that the narrow gauge may
equal the broad gauge in velocity if they would only pet on a
sufficient power.
Mr. Walker said, that when that report was made he had no
idea that the Great Western would have gone so much ahead.
Mr. Coctauax—lf the whole question were open, and all the
railways had to be re-constructed, which gauge would you choose ?
Mr. Walker—The wide gauge certainly.
Mr. AMlN—Which wideguage ? Mr. Walker—The seven-
feet gauge. I think all the great lines of railway committed a
great mistake in the first instance in not purchasing land for four
lines. They will soon require one set of lines for passenger traffic
and another for goods traffic.
By. Mr. V. STUART—I think the question of shifting a matter
of very minor importance,. The facilities are so great that it is
not of much consequence where it takes place.
The witness then withdrew.
Mr. Russell, M.P., examined by Mr. Coexist:tot—l am Chair-
man of the Great Western Company. As such I entertain no
doubt but that the suggested line from Worslden to North Wales
would be carried out by the Great Western Company if the line
were made to Oxford and Wolverhampton.
By Mr.' AUsTIN—II would be carried out to Port Dynllaen or
to Holyhead. The estimates have not been made to my
knowledge. I believe if the line to Holyhead or Port Dynllaen
were made by an independent company, and it did not pay, it
would be worth the while of the Great Western Company to take
it to secure the Irish traffic to the Great Western Company. No
plan has been matured, but the subject has been discussed
by the Board of Directors frequently during the last
twelve months. It was not made a portion of the pro-
posed scheme to Wolverhampton. The alternative terminus as
to Port Dynllaen or Holyhead must have been discussed, I think, at
the Board ; but the question of the terminus depends upon the
formation of the port. I think there may be some minutes of these
discussions; Ido not remember any distinct resolutions. We had
not a Bill in Parliament last year. The Chester and Holyhead
Company had a Bill last year. We did not oppose it.
Averin—Did this line suggest itself until the Bill was In-
troduced ?
Mr. Russell—The line has long been the subject of contempla •
tied. It was in consequence of the doubts which I had heard cast
on the intentions of the Company in the course of the
examination of Mr. Walker that I now come forward
to be examined. The Great Western Company has
subscribed half a million to the line to Fishguard and Pembroke.
If this Bill were passed I have no doubt but that the Great Western
Wisuld make the line to Port Dynllaen or Holyhead. No figure has
been mentioned as the probable cost, but railways cost less now-
-20,0001. a mile less. I believe that:they thought the North Wales
could be made. There are several lines of railway to be made by
the Great Western Railway. There is a project of making a line
of railway to Warwick and to Birmingham—that is by an indepen-
dent company. There is no subscription from the Great Western.
No engineer has yet been appointed. The question of gauge has
been left for future decision, Sut I have no doubt if the broad
gauge were carried to Rugby, it would be carried to Birmingham.
The company was formed a couple of months ago. There is also a plan
for carrying the broad gauge to Cheltenham. The eastern terminus
of it is at Shipton, on the proposed line of the railway from Oxford
to Wolverhampton. This is an independent company. If the
broad gauge should be carried to Shipton, the.line would be carried to
Oxford. The Great Western Company subscribed half the capital for
that line. There were reports by' the Board of Trade in favour of
certain lines proposed by the South. Western Company in the south
of England. In consequence of an arrangement with the Great
Western, those lines were abandoned. The basis of that agree-
ment was to carry out the recommendation of the Board of Trade,
which was to discourage these competing lines. I do not think
they could carry any line to Exeter, so long as the circurn-
tances remain as they are, or so long as the grounds of the
decision of the Board of Trade continue the same. If any alte-
rations were made, the Board of Trade might decide as
they could. There is an appeal on the subject from the South.
Western Company pending at present before the Board of Trade.
There is a case now pending for a line from Weymouth, the South.
Western line coming into it at Dorchester. We do not intend to
lay down a double gauge unless ordered to do so by the Board of
Trade. There is an application before the Board of Trade, on the
part of the Southampton and Dorchester line, for a double line of
rails. The Great-Western were resisting the introduction of a
clause into the Bill compelling them so to do, but they will do so
if required by the Board of Trade. The Grand Junction Com.
pans', as individuals, are promoting the Oxford, Worcester, and
Wolverhampton line.
Re-examined by Mr. Cocaavax—We should be mad to think
of making the line between Worcester and North Wales unless
we had the rest of the line. With regard to the west of Eng-
landlines, to which allusion has been made, there were three lined
proposed. The Board of Trade reported in favour of the Bath and
Weymouth, and of the Southampton and Dorchester lines. The
South-Western and the Great Western Companies agreed to abide
by the decision of the Board of Trade, and so the matter has stood.
By Mr. V. STUART—The principal traffic of the Welsh line would
be from Ireland, but there would also be a great increase of traffic.
The Fishguard line will be in communication with Wexford.
There is a line of railway proposed from the north of Ireland to
Wexford. It would certainly, notwithstanding this, be worth
our while to make the North Wales line. It would decidedly be
worth our while to make both lines. The one would be a feeder
for the south and the other for the north.
Mr. James Pym, examined by Mr. Coc XDUitN— I am the treasurer
of the Dublin and Kingstown Railway, since the year 1631. I
have considered the question as to the best mode of communication
between Dublin and London. Some years since I turned my at-
tention to the line from Port Dynllaen and Holyhead. lam aware
of the proposed line by Chester and Holyhead. I think competition
would be highly desirable. I do not think the Chester and Holyhead
line would carry out all the objects I have in view
in facilitating the communication between Dublin and London.
Mr. Walker's report states the saving of time in Dublin would be
five hours, but they are reckoned from the time the bags arrive at
the post.oflice and their departure ; but practically we should
have not one hour. I believe the proposed line through Worcester
and North Wales would provide greater time for the accommoda-
tion of Dublin. Mr. Brunel says that the communication between
the two cities would take place in twelve hours. I believe if the
Great Western Company got the line to Worcester, it
would be greatly to their interest to carry on the line to
Portdynllaen, and open a communication from thence to Wick.
low or Dublin. If Portdynllaen were nearer a port, the Dublin
and Kingston Company would carry on the line to Wicklow. The
passage between Wicklow and Portdynllaen is the shortest. There
was a large and respectable meeting in Dublin in favour of the
Portdynllaen line.
Cross.exatnined by Mr. AtATIN—The subject was considered
by the Government last year and a representation was made to
them on the subject. They granted an annuity to the Chester
and Holyhead Company for the services in carrying out this line.
They would have concentrated the Wicklow and Dublin
traffic at Portydnllaen, and the southern traffic through
Wexford at Fishguard. That I believe is the intention.
If suitable harbours were made at Wexford and Fishguard, and the
Fishguard line is made, a considerable portion of the traffic of the
south of Ireland will pass by that route. The traffic from Sligo and
Galway would be concentrated at Dublin and go to Portdynllaen. I
also think it would have a large proportion of the Belfast traffic.
By Mr. Ausris—Would not the result be that the Great Western
Company would by these schemes have bagged and put into their
pocket the whole of Ireland ?
The witness—l think it would be infinitely to our advantage
that they should do so if they will do It on these terms.—(A laugh.)
Crannexarnination continued—By Mr. Walker's plan we should
have no time at all to answer our letters in Dublin. The four
hours mentioned by him would practically give us no time at all—
but by the other proposed scheme, though nominally we/should
have only two hours, yet really we should have four, because we
should have two hours each way.
By the CIIAIRM•N—What I want to effect is, that the journey
between London and Dublin shall certainly be performed in twelve

hours.
Cross-examined by Mr. CRIPPS—There is a Bill for a rail.
way to Bangor from Portdynllaen, to communicate with the
Chester and Holyhead Railway. This would be an important line
for persons going to the north of England tram Portdynllaen, while
those going to the south would go by the Worcester line. I expect
that if the °mat Western Company got the line to Portdynllaen
they will also make the harbour, because it will be their interest
to do so.
Mr. Thomas Pennon, examined by Mr. Caters—l reside at
Oswestry, which has great communication with North Walce. I
have been surveyor of the counties of Montgomery and Denbigh
for thirty years. My attention was drawn in 1836 to the pro-
priety of forming a railway from Portdynllaen. The project
then proposed was to go by Shrewsbury and the Vale of the
Dee. In 1940 the like by Worcester was strongly recommended.
At that time the scheme was considered a hopeless one, on ac-
count of the great length of the line. Unless a line Is made to
NAtiNh'neo Independentvva
rmceossltteenr, iwthrearbelliei line
no chance of the formation of a North Wales line.
n
feaiflrtiormesNe VvoerrcepsrtoeprotsoodP,orTt Portdynllaen. would lrai ennci palbeoi
landownersieof ,
would give their support to this line. I have seen the 1
haveßy already
the
c i hue:tar:l, fromAw _Thhiegrhe
ar e authorities
engineering cin the subject.
harbour of Portdynllaen, and I cannot add anything '
which
may be overcome ; but. the line would fail for want of traffic. It '
lam the Chat a
would run
Barlow,through aextahminilnyedpoibiuyla:iedr.
ccoßuinptiz._
of the Southampton Dock Company. 1 think It would be arm
n
advantage to Southampton to have a direct communication with I
Wolverhampton or the mineral districts.
Mr. Shaw, of Wolverhampton, examined by Mr. COCKIMIN--I
am a merchant. There was a public meeting at Wolverhampton
last Monday, over which I presided. It was respectably attended.
A resolution was carried in favour of increased railway communi-
cation with the metropolis, and in favour of having a line to cm.
tuusupptopilort
loinfe.the
Tphreoy.
cuttitoiewa,hat you
pPoestvie wOittxlfortclh: Worcester,l3irMn gh
aid lline,
e,Waonld9 e rihn