The Sun.
London, England, 1829-02-14 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS-(LAST NIGHT.)

General GASCOYNE brought in a Bill for the esta-
blishment of an Institution at Liverpool, to be called
" The School for the Indigent Blind."

Sir R. INGLIS presented a petition against the Ca-
tholic Claims, from Ashbury, Berks.
Mr. BANKES presentiql similar petitions from Poole,
Dorsetshire, and a parish in Gloucester.
Mr. DUNCOMBE presented a petition from the Arch-

deacon and Clergy of The Diocese of Cheater, against the
Catholic Claims.

➢ir. WHITMORE presented a similar petition from
Blidgenorth, county of Salop.

, General KING presented a similar petition from Car-
berry, county of Cork, and other places in the same county.
'Mr. ELLIS presented a petition from the Unitarians
of Newcastle-upon-Tyne in favour of the Catholics.
Mr. H. DAVIS presented a similar petition from the
parish of St. Augustine, Bristol, and said that at a great
public meeting a few days ago, since bis Majesty's speech
had been published, there were at least one hundred to one
in favour of refusing further concessions.
Mr. BRIGHT would oppose any further concessions to
the Catholics.

Mr. PROTHEROE was fearful that if Catholic Mem-
bers were admitted into the House, it would lose its Pro.
testant character; he also feared that the discussions which
world follow would excite a greater opposition between the
two religions, and prevent the debates• being carded on
with proper temper.
Mr. H. DAVIS also presented a similar petition from the
parish of St. Thomas, Bristol.

Admiral EVANS presented a similar petition from
Charleville County, Cork.
Admiral SOTHERON presented four similar petitions
from Botherstall and other places in the county of Not-
tingham.

Mr. LLOYD presented a petition against the Sub-letting
Act, from the Roman Catholic inhabitants of Newcastle,
Limerick; another against the Vestry Bill, and one in
favour of the Catholics.

The SOLICITOR-GENERAL presented a petition
from the Archdeacon and Clergy of Ely, against the
Catholic Claims.

Mr. MAXWELL presented five petitions against the
Catholics, from several places in the county of Tyrone.
Mr. BOYLE presented a petition in favour of the
Catholic Claims.

Sir T. LETHBRIDGE presented five petitions against
any further concessions to the Roman Catholics.

Mr. PEEL rose to present a petition from the Chancel-
lor, Master, and Scholars of the University of Oxford,
against the Catholic Claims. The petition, the Right
Honourable Gentleman said, expressed opinions decidedly
adverse to the further concession of political power to
the Roman Catholics. He felt himself hound to state
that the opinions expressed in this petition were couched
in still stronger terms than those used upon any former
occasion. He felt himself bound also to state, that this
petition had not been agreed to without due notice havit.g
been given of the intention to. bring it forward; that it
was agreed to by a more numerous assembly than had ever
before beenp convened for such a purpose in the university;
and that, though not carried unanimously, it was carried
by a larger. majority than upon any former occasion. The
numbers for the petition were, he believed; 164—and
against it 48. He felt it his duty to present this petition,
in the absence of his Hon. Friend, who was prevented
from attending by a domestic calamity; and in doing so,
he felt it - incumbent on him to attempt, as well as he
could, to do justice to the opinions expressed by the uni-
versity of Oxford—to state the circumstances under
which the petition had been agreed to, and the relative
numbers which appeared in favour of and against its
adoption.

Mr. BRANSBY COOPER, in presenting a petition
against emancipation, begged to offer a few remarks of
his own on its importance. He felt much disappointed at
the opening,of. the Session to hear the change of opinion
in Ministers. Every one was taken by surprise, and it was
with regret they heard the change of the Right Honour-
able Secretary. From the corespondence that passed be-
tween them un that subject, he certainly was led to think
that no change had taken place in that gentleman's opinion.
He did not wish to blame him, but he must lament the cir-
cumstance. It had paralyzed the efforts of those
disposed' to rely with confidence under the conviction that
the cause would nut be injured in his hands. He had
listened with patience to the explanatory speech of the
Right Honourable Gentleman, in hopes of hearing
some cause assigned for that change, but he must say
he did not think any reason had been brought forward to
justify his change of mind on this most important of
all questions. He had said nothing but what had been
said many times before. (Hear, hear.) The disturbance
in Ireland might have been put down without Eman-
cipation. He could see no efficient cause at the pre-
sent time why a measure infringing the vital principle
of the Bristish Constitution rOth in Church and
State should now he granted.—( Hear, hear.) —On
one point he entirely agreed with the Right Hon. Se-
cretary. He agreed with him that the system adopted of
late years—that of the administration adhering to a neu-
trality on this subject—was absurd, and ought not to be
continued. He thought that a Protestant King ought to
be surrounded by a Protestant Parliament, and assisted by
a purely Protestant Administration, (hear) and he had no
doubt in his own mind, that in this great, and powerful,
and enlightened empire, such an administration might be
found to conduct the affitirs of the country with safety and
success. It was said, however, that notwithstanding the
objection generally expressed to the granting of concessions,
still measures might be devised to prevent the apprehended
danger. Now he must beg leave to say that, with respect
to securities on so serious a subject as this was, he felt
very great doubt and difficulty. It appeared to him that
those who promoted this measure woul first produce the
danger, and then seek the securities : they would let the
enemy into the garrison, and then trust to his forbear -
ance,—they would .let the wolf get into the fold, and, that
done, he would soon get rid of his muzzle, and make use of
those weapons with which he was provided to effect
their destruction. The whok scheme of securities ap-
peared to him to be completely vain and illusory.—(Hear,
hear.)—The only real security, in his opinion, which Pro-
testants could have, Was the total exclusion of the Roman
Catholics.—(Hear, hear.)—Now, it was said to be essen-
tially necessary that this question should be settled. He,
however, conceived, on the contrary, that it was finally
settled before the revolution took place; and that the pro-
ceeding was then Confirmed, as a settlement, by the revo-
lution. It was allowed, on all hands, that Popery had nei-
ther changed nor could change—that it remained immu-
table. If this were so, then he could see no reason for
any change in our Protestant Constitution.—( Hear, hear.)
—Were not Catholics excluded from this and the other
House of Parliament by oaths administered for the purpose
of protecting the Protestant faith and the Protestant Church?
Then, assuredly, if they introduced a Roman Catholic to ei-
ther House of Parl iament,they admitted aconscientious oppo-
nent of that church, who would do the utmost in . his
power to undermine it. This way a danger against which
they ought to guard watchfully ; for it was quite
impossible, when Roman Catholics were introduced, that
they should not endeavour to subvert the interests of the
Established Church. And who would be the persons most
likely to get into Parliament? Why, those very individuals
who were more particularly and especially attached to the
tenets of the Catholic religion, and who were, therefore, the
more dangerous. Why, then, should they create a positive
evil against which there could be no effectual safeguard?
They had been told, likewise, that it was necessary to bring
this question to a satisfactory conclusion. On that subject
he perfectly agreed ; but he must say, that it was impossible
to point out any security that could be satisfactory. He de-
nied that any such could be found ; and, -if the boon were
granted with any species of securi ties, the Catholics would not
be satisfied. Why, then, and for what purpose, did they en-
tertain this question at all? It would be said that this measure
would remove the dissensions and which now pre-
vailed in Ireland; but was it likely that it could be carried
without producing animosities amorgst the Protestants,
both there and in this country ?—and thus, perhaps, the
business would end at last in that very civil war which
these efforts were intended to prevent.—(Hear.) They
could not, he maintained, grant concessions without in-
curring danger, against which no precaution could avail.
He was perfectly satisfied that the Cathodic claims could
not be granted without weakening the settlement of the
House of Brunswick to the throne of these realms—they
eouhd not be granted without departing from the line of policy
which bad raised Great Britain to her present high station
amongst the nations of the earth—they could not be grant-
'ed without danger to that Church which had long shone
as the glory of the Reformation—they could not be granted
without tempting that Providence which bad so long and so
singularly preserved our Constitution. lie, however, hoped
that those evils would be averted by the efforts of the peo-
ple ; and he was sure that all true Protestants, in every
pars of the country, would, to a man, resist those claims.
He belonged to a united band of brothers, who were de-
termined to use all proper and constitutional modes to prevent
the introduction of the Roman Catholics into either House
of Parliament, or to highs offices in the State, on any terms
or conditions.

Lord NUGENT, before the petition was read, begged
leave to say a few words about what had fallen from
the Hon. Member for Gloucester. He seemed to think
that no true Protestant could support Emancipation.
He begged to be allowed to say that no man what-
ever might be his opinion respecting Emancipation,
whether it was right or wrong, ought to assume to
that one differing from'him that he was no true Protestant.
The could assure the. House with all the sincerity and
warmth of his Hon. Fiend, that he himself and the Other
Members on that side the House, who agreed with him in
thinking that -Emancipation should he granted, were as
Protestant as his Hon. Friend. He considered true Pro-
testantism consisted in liberty of conscience, and it was to

that we must look for smithies to the Protestant Church.
Its best interests were advanced in allowing liberty of
opinion. He should not have made these remarks, but he
nswer could sit to hear true Protestantism applied. exclu-
sively to those svho opposed Catholic Emancipation.
Mr. BR ANSB COOPER I•xplained.
Mr. DITNCOAIBE wished to know what those persons
lia,l to propose who wil, oppcsed to tilo measure about to
he introduced by his Mejesty's Government, for surely they
could not contemplate
.putting down the Catholics by the
sword. (Hear, hear.) If they could look to such a means,
he felt assured they would never be supported by the people
of England.
Mr. W. WYNN should not have thought it necessary
to trouble the House on this occasion, if it had not been
for one expression which had occurred in the speech of the
Hon.- Gentleman opposite (Mr. B. Cooper)—an expres-
sion which, he confessed, ltd had not before heard in that
House, though he found that it had !wen most " saga-
ciously" used elsewhere. The Hon. Member had said, that
this proposed measure would impair the title of the House
of Brunswick to the throne. Amongst certain publica-
tions which fell into his hands, and which he read with
great concern, he found that precisely the saute offensive
allusion was made. One of tile morning papers recently
contained the following passage :—" It was only the
childless possessor of a throne, that would impair the title
of his family to the succession." What was that title?
how was it created ? By the choice of a free people—
(hear, hear)—for it was the undeniable right of the Par-
liament of this country to limit the succession to the
throne.—( Hear, bear.)—lt was on that principle that the
House of Brunswick was brought in, not only for the pre-
servation of our religion, but for the maintenance of our
liberties—(hear, hear)—and he thought it was most
sirable, as the House of Brunswick came in on such a
principle, that it should be well understood.—( Hear, hear.)
Hon. Gentleman bad expressed his wonder that no
grounds, satisfactory to him, had been stated by the Right
Hon. Secretary of state, for altering, not his opinion,
but his line of conduct. Now to him (Mr. Wynn), in
his view of the case, it was a matter of wonder that
that alteration bad not long ago taken place—(hear,
hear)—in the mind of his Right Honourable Friend.—
(Hear, hear, hear. )—He lamented deeply that it had
not, because he believed that the degree of gratitude with"
which this boon would then have been received, would
have been greater; and because he feared a longer time
must now elapse before the agitated waves, which had
been chafed into a storm by the constant rejection of this
question, subsided into a calm. It was impossible to con- '
ceive what the increased danger attendant on the settle-
ment of this question would be—Lit was impossible to con-
ceive when the fulfilment of those prophecies of mischief,
which they had so often heard, would take place; but, on
the other hand, no man who attended to the subject could
deny that the existing and palpable evils which his Right
Hon. Friend had described, had made great progress—
had increased rapidly within the last two years. The
Hon. Gentleman expressed it at as his opinion, that the
• institution of Brunswick clubs was useful in that part of
the empire. Now if there was one thing more than an-
otber,_.avhich pleased him in the measure lately intio-
'laced, it was because it gave the power for putting down
all those associations, whether Brunswick or liberal.
(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman might look on the
Brunswick Clubs as formed for the purest and most
necessary objects (hear, hear) ; but could he be blind to
the fact, that if they avers allowed to subsist, counter
efforts would not be made on the other side.? (Hear.)
He felt that his Right Hon. Friend had done himself the
highest credit by the course lie bad taken. He knew it might
be said to his Right lion. Friend " Why did you not retire
front office, and pursue time same course you have done as
an individual Member of Parliament?" He would say,
that if his Right Hon.:Friend, after fair conaideration:—
after balancing the choice of evils—evils which he saw and
evils which were contingent—the evils of concession and
the evils of refusal—if, after that mature consideration, he
thought, as a Minister, that it was best for the interests of
the country which he was bound to watch over, that a
measure of concession should be agreed to, then it was his
duty to propose it, whatever might be the sacrifice.—
(Hear.)—But what would have been the case if his Right
Hon. Friend had retired from office, and said, " I will

support this measure as an independent Member of Par-
'lament with my own individual vote, but I do not think
it consistent with my former conduct to act as a Minister."
Why every one of those Gentlemen who now complained,
would then complain touch louder. They would accuse his
Rt. Hon. Friend with having acted a mean, juggling, shal-
low, part.—(Hear.)—Would it not be said that " he re-
tired from office merely to escape the odium of bringing
forward the obnoxious measure ; but, relying on the repu-
tation which he has established, he knows that he may
return to office whenever this measure is completed ?"
For his own part he thought such conduct would be most
cowardly, and would merit severe censure and general in-
dignation.—(Mear.)—His Right lion. Friend had adopted
a different course, and, tia• one, he had his (Mr. Wyna's)
most hearty and cordial feeling. —(Hear.)
Mr. PEEL could assure his Hon. Friend (Mr. B.
Cooper), that whatever opinion he might express, it could
never shake the perfect esteem he felt for his character, or
his decided conviction that his Hon. Friend would never
take any course, on any public question, without the most
deliberate consideration and reflection. He rose chiefly to
complain, but with perfect good humour, that his Hon.
Friend bad alluded to a private correspondence which bad
taken place between them. He would tell his Hon Friend,
that he would rather have the correspondence in question
read than alluded to; and when he wrote to his Majesty's
Government to learn what course they intended to pursue
with respect to a delicate question, he ought to know how
difficult it was to give an answer without running the
hazard of misrepresentation.—(Hear, hear.)—llis Hon.
Friend ought to be aware of this, and he was sure that
his Hon. Friend would not call on him to enter into a
discussion in that House relative to a private correspond-
ence with Government on a subject of paramount interest.
—(Hear, hear. )—llis Hon. Friend had said, that the
force or violence which he (Mr. Peel) had described the
other night as existing in Ireland, might have been put
down by the strong hand of his-(Mr. Peel's) Noble Friend.
He cordially concurred with his Hon. Friend on that
point, but he would ask again, as he had on aformer occa-
sion, " When we have done, when we have succeeded,
where arc we ?"—( Hear, hear.)--In I 79g, they knew
the success with which a positive insurrection was put
down, and the same success would undoubtedly attend the
Government, if any attempt were made to wrest, by vio-
lence, those privileges which they claimed. But, suppos.
ing the eompletest success to be obtained over the malcon-
tents, would not the question remain precisely as it was?
—(Hear, hear.)—The point to wide!' they must turn
their minds was, how to allay irritation—not how to exas-
perate it. , When individuals argued that this business
ought to be brought to the issue of a civil contest,
they should also consider what were the evils that would
arise on the moment, and the long succession of mischiefs
that was likely to follow.
The petition was ordered to be printed.

Lord NUGENT presented a petition from a number of
Protestant tradesmen, inhabitants of Oxford, in favour of
the Catholic claims.—Laid on the table. --
Lord NUGENT gave notice that he would on Monday
next present to the Llouse the petition of the Roman Ca-
tholic subjects of England and Scotland.

Mr. 0. CAVE presented a petition from a number of
females, resident at Castle Darlington, against the burning
of Hindoo widows.—Laid on the table.

Sir H. HARDINGE presented the army estimates for
the current year.—Ordered to be printed.
Mr. DAWSON presented accounts of the sums due in
April, 1829, in respect of expences in keeping up his Ma-
jesty's forces in India. Also an Account of the Net Re-
venue and Expenditure of the United Kingdom.—To be
printed.
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.

On the motion of the CHANeEt.r.on of the ENcliEguErt,
that the Order of the Day for Committee of Supply
be read,

ofwith n
system by which the public accountq might be
simplified. It was a reproach to this co;intry, from which
he bad hoped they would have been by this time free, and
certainly it was higll time they were, that, while the pub •
lie accounts of all other countries were perfectly intelli-
gible, theirs were perfectly unintdlligildv. The publ4l, ac-
counts of France and America, the two countries to which
he more particularly alluded, were iTc,t4igible to any man
who understood the Est fc•,lr ri,iles of arithmetic, but they
who were acco;inted a nation of shopkeepers, positively
could not tell in what situation they were. Thia system,
had been going on a great deal too lig:s, and he hoped
this Session would not be allowed to pass over without
complete reformation in the mode, of keeping the pubt.io
accounts. It would be only justice for Linn to bear tes-
timony to the wish of his Majesty's Ministers to remedy
this evil.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER assured
the Hon. Member, that there was no indisposition on the
part of his Majesty's Ministers to revive the Finance Com-
mittee. Considering, however, the duties 3vhich now de,
voivedthpon the Government, and after communications
with several Members of the Committee, he had come to
the resolution to defer for sometime the keviyal of the Com=

mittre. With respect to the commission to which the Hon.
'Weather had referred, they had, ever since their appoint-
ment, been a,,iduously employed upon the task-which had
been committed to them, and it was only within the last
few days that their report had come to his hands. That
report was extremely voluminous, and be had not vet been
able to peruse it.
After a few words from Mr. 111731 E,
The House went into Committee.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHZQUER moved
the first resolution—" That a sum not exceeding
28,046,800/. be granted to his Majesty, to pay °Mind &-
charge outstanding Exchequer Bills."

Mr. HUME said, that though this was dealing in very
large sums, he did not object to it on that account. Upon
this vote however turned a question of the greatest impor-
tance. The unfunded debt had, as the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman very well knew, occupied a very large portion of the
time of the Finance Committee, and he theithre did think
that the Government ought now to tell them how far they
meant to continue the unfunded debt, which in the last
Session had been declared to be considerably larger than it
ever ought to be. ' The dangers of such a debt were now
very well understood, and thong's theie was no panic now,
et, if such an effect were to happ.p, very serious conse-
quences would arise from their having such a large un-
funded debt.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that
every beds' must see that a premature di.elo4ure of the in-
tentions of Government was calculated to produce the
greatest inconvenience. Without, therefore, the least in-
tention of concealment, still he must refuse to satisfy the
Hon. Member.

Mr. MABERLY said, that the dangers to which they
were exposed from the amount of the unfunded debt, called,
in his opinion, upon the Right Hon. Gentleman to give the
&sit ed.explanation now. Withholding it would he much
more likely to give rise to speculation than affording it would.
Mr. HUME, if there would be any danger in giving tic
information he sought, had no inclination to press for it.—
He should, however, take an call), opportunity of calling
upon Ministers to explain their intentions on this subject.
The resolution was then agreed to.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then
moved, " That a sum not exceeding 392,000/. be granted
to his Majesty for the discharge of Exchequer Bills issued
on account of loans advanced on public works."
Mr. HUME asked, if, in the present abundance of
money, it was intended to continue this system, or to wind
up the account. There were reports that these advanees
had bee❑ made on works on which private capital ought to
have been employed. He did not know if these complaints
were true, but he should shortly move for accounts, which
would show whether the fact was so or not.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that
this vote was to discharge bills Aready issued. He was to
have an interview with the Board to-mo►row, and after
that he should be able to give the Hon. Member the in-
formation be desired.—The resolution was then agreed to.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then
moved, " That a sum of 4,600,000/. be granted to his Ma-
jesty, on account of unappropriated grants of the years
1823, 1824, 1825, 1826, 1827, and 1S S."--Agreed to.
The House then resumed, and the Chairman reported
progress.—Report on Monday.