The Sun.
London, England, 1842-07-27 00:00:00

IMPERIAL- PARLIAMiI NT•

HOUSE OF LORDS, .hdy
Their Lordships met at Five o'Clock.•
The. Joint-Stock Banking Companies Bill, the
Stamp Duties Bill, the Grand Jury (Ireistn d) Pre-
sentments Bill, and several private Bills, were brought
forward, and read a first time.
POOR -L AW BILL.

The Duke of WELLINGTON moved the send
reading of the Bill for continuing the Poor-law Ca m-
mission till the 31st August, 1843. He said .he
had been originally one of th 3 supporters of the Bill,
and be was so on the ground that the only remedy
for the evils which prevailed under the old system, was.
to be found in the Bill of his Noble Friend. He hadi

watched the working of the Act, and had found it
had given general satisfaction throughout the country.
He (lid not mean to say that he approved of all that
had been done under this Act; some of its provisions
went a little too far, and he was one of those who did not
think there was any necessity for erecting those build-
ings which had obtained the name of Bastiles—
(Hear, hear from Lord Stanhope)—especially as some
parts of the country were not ripe for the introduc-
tion of those establishments, As he had be-
fore stated, however, he approved generally of
the working of the Bill, and had much pleasure in
now moving the second reading. He had paid great
attention to the subject—(Hear, hear)—and wherever
he had had an opportunity of observing, he had found
that the management of the workhouses was as good
as could be expected under any circumstances. He
concluded by moving the second reading.
On the second reading being put,
Lord STANHOPE said the present Bill was only
a fragment of the one that was to have been proposed
to the other House of Parliament. But now the ques-
tion was, that they should continue for five, or rather
six years the arbitrary and irresponsible power
of the dictators of Somerset House. He had
thought that this was a question on which
more relief was to have been expected from
the present Ministry than from the late Govern-
ment. But he must confess that he had been much
disappointed in finding the present Government taking
on itself the odium they must incur by the present
measure. The Bill could only be carried out by in-
vesting the Commissioners with absolute power. Now
it was the opinion of Locke, that the Parliament
could make laws, but not legislators. The Commis-
sioners were entrusted with both legislative and
. .

executive power. In the declared— opinion of
the late Chief Justice of the Common Pleas,
a more complete system of grinding oppres-
sion never existed, and that if the Bill was
once passed, the poor of England would become more
completely slaves than the villains of the old feudal
system. The Bill was continued nominally for
five or six years, but there could be no
doubt, if Parliament did not interfere, that

these powers would be made perpetual. It was a Bill to
continue and confirm the powers of the Dictators,
without beingcompromised by any measure to alleviate
its severity. And what were the circumstances
under which the Ministry had the hardihood to propose
this measure ? Under circumstances of unprecedented
distress, when the difficulties of the country were
infinitely increased. In the manufacturing districts
hundreds were perishing of hunger ; these facts
had not been denied, not even disputed. Would this
have occurred had they had a law whose principle
was to grant relief ? This Bill punished poverty as a
crime, no matter how that state of poverty might have
been caused. They were confined to workhouses,
which had generally acquired the mune of bastiles.—
(" No," very loudly and decidedly pronounced by the
Duke of Wellington.) The Noble Duke had allowed
that they had acquired the name of bastiles.—(An-
other loud " No" from the Duke of Wellington.)
The Noble Duke had himself said so.

The Duke of WELLINGTON must interrupt the
Noble Lord ; when he said they had acquired the name
of bastiles, it was only from those who thought like
the Noble Lord himself.—(A laugh.)
Lord STANHOPE contended that they were bastiles,
the Commissioners only issuing their lettres-de-cachet
against the poor. They were prisons in their form, their
seclusion, their rigour, and worse than prisons in the
quantity and quality of the food given in them. Since
the enactment of the law there .had been a fearful
increase of crime. The state of the labouring
population must be various in different places ;
but at the present time it was worse
than it had been at any period of his
recollection. As to the economy of the measure,
which was to be one of its chief recommendations,
in the agricultural districts the rates had fearfully in-
creased, in one place from 3s. to I Is. in the
pound. He complained that the poor had no remedy
under the law if it injured them ; it was
adding insult to injury to tell them that they could go
by a writ of certiorari to the Court of Queen's Bench.
Cases of injustice and oppression had occurred, and in
those cases the Poor-law Commissioners, in the per-
sons of the Assistant-Commissioners, had themselves
been the judges. Their Lordships could not read a
newspaper without finding recorded cases of starvation
to death, and of suicide occasioned by horror of the
workhouse. Had they not read of cases where petty
thefts were committed for the sake of avoiding starvation
in the comfortable asylum of a gaol ? Had not all this
misery been occasioned by the accursed infamous Act,
as the late Lord Eldon justly termed it ? They might
repeal the Act, but they could never recal to life 'the
thousands who had been murdered in the new prisons.
He warned their Lordships to beware in time. There
was no animal so weak or so tame that ill-treatment
long continued would not rouse to anger. Charles the
First was brought to the scaffold by the attempt to levy
ship money, and Charles the Tenth, surrounded by a
powerful army, was hurled from his throne. Let diem
beware of the consequence of upholding. this iniquitous
law, or they would see similar events In this country
—they would shortly see a general convulsion.
The Duke of WELLINGTON—ConvuIsion !

The Earl of g'FATIiOI and he
was very glad the Noble Duke had heard the wk,sycl,•and
he hoped it would be a warning to him.
The Duke of WELLINGTON—Oh, I admire
(Great laughter.)

The Earl of STANHOPE wished to warn the Noble
Duke what fate this Bill must work out for their Lord-
ships individually and collectively—(Laughter :and
cheers)—if on being weighed in the balance they were
found wanting.—(Laughter.) The Noble Earl con-
cluded by moving that the Bill be read a second tune
this day six months.
The Earl of GALLOWAY (we believe) seconded
the motion.
Lord BROUGHAM (who was much cheered) said
that he agreed with one observation of his Noble Friend,
and with one only ; and he should take nearly the same
course as the Noble Earl had marked out for himself, but
had not very strictly followed, namely, not to occupy the
time of the House unnecessarily long.—(Hear, hear, and
laughter.) He had repeatedly consulted with his
Noble Friend on this subject, and had often given hie
reasons in that House for not agreeing with his Noble
' Friend in his objections to a measure which was proved
to hate- operated beneficially for those who were the
main-and sole objects of the measure, and for whose good
it was alone intended. His Noble Friend Ea,: brought

forward the-same charges which had already be dis-
proved to their Lordships' satisfaction. He had bron,;ht
forward the same charges, without any change in his owe
terms—with the same vehemence, with the same ear-
nestness, with the same vague generalities, and with the
Same unconsidered declamation.—(Hear.) If his Noble
Friend had varied the charges in their form, if he had
altered the tone of his vituperation, if he had in any sort
limited the vagueness of his attacks, and alleged something
specific against the Commissioners and the law, he
(Lord Brougham) would have felts it his duty to reply to
his statements, and to assert the usefulness of the law,
of. which he had been one of the most eminent prc-
moters. He would therefore occupy their-Lordships no
more than by referring in one short word to the con-
clusion of his Noble Friend's address, which had no
novelty.—(llear, hear.) He said that the conclusion of
his' Noble Friend's speech was no novelty, for more
than once the Noble Earl had himself set himself
the example.—(Cheers and laughter.) The Noble Earl'
used lavishly the terms " oppression and murder " as
applied to the authorities, and " rebellion and con-
vulsion" when he addressed himself to the poor.—
(Cheers.) The Noble Earl prophesied revolution and
anarchy—a prophecy which, under • the same circum-
stances amongst any other people, might, like
other prophecies of evil, verify itself.—(Cheers.) But
he trusted his Noble Friend himself, in his calmer mo-
ments (if, on this subject, he was ever fated to experi-
ence a caltn moment), would be sorry for the tone in
which he had discussed, and the prejudices through
which he had viewed this question.—(Great cheering.)
If his Noble Friend should ever have reason to lament
his indulgence in this extraordinary and most extrava-
gant course, he hoped the Noble Lord's regret would he
confined to the speeches themselves, for he believed that
the good sense of the people of this country could not be so
far led astray as to forget, as other nations had forgotten,
their duty to the peace of the land—their duty to the
law—their duty, as good subjects, to the Crown—as good
citizens to the State—and, as prudent citizens, to them-
selves. The Noble Lord sat down amid great cheering.
The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered
to be committed on Thursday.
SCHOOLMASTEItS IN SCOTLAND.

The Earl of GALLOWAY presented a petition
from schoolmasters of the parochial schools in Scotland,
complaining of the inadequacy of their salaries, and pruy-
ing Parliamentary relief.
Lord ABERDEEN laid upon the table papers connec-
ted with the slavtertjraEdDe,uancdA;thmerNdocuußmEeLntAs
swbni)c.ll had
in been
isTAcldmfoNr

The Earl of CLANCAHTY
.presented a Petition
from a place in Dublin, against.the system of National
Education in Ireland. He had given notice for to-night
of a question which he intended to put relative to the es.
tablishment of agricultural schools, by the Board of Edu-
cation. His Noble Friend, the President of the Council,
said it would be inconvenient to answer that question to-
night ; he should, therefore, poltpone it till Friday next.
• COUNTY COURTS BILL.
Lord SHAFTESBURY proposed the third reading of
this Bill.

Lord BROUGHAM said he believed this Bill to be a
step in the right direction.
-1-"deOTTENHAM complained that a number of new
officers would have to be appointed, and others would b
disPIIICLA why r‘qukte commuation,