The Sun.
London, England, 1845-02-20 00:00:00

an extract from a speech which must have gratified the Right
Hon. Baronet, if it did not gratify all those around him.—(A
laugh.) [The Hon. Gentleman then read, amidst much
cheering and laughter, an extract from the speech of Colonel
Conolly.] A passi.ge in that speech reminded him of the
strange asscc:atiork of bed-fellows—Great laughterf—and of
direly crawlers.—(Great laughter.) 'e could not help
tliihking that the flonourable and Learned Member falsified
an old statement,
" Who drives fat oxen should himself be fat."
—(Laughter.) The Hon. and Learned Member (Mr. Roe-
buck) was perfectly justified in complaining of the absence of
Irish Members, but he ( Sergeant Murphy' could not agree in
the rea,ons which he gave for that absence. He wished the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman had been more guarded in his
toile and langkikkge. True it was, the Hon. and Learned Mem-
ber excluded from his censure ,he Hon. and Learned Member
tor Co, k, bet there was one Hon. Mumb, to wh, m pointed
allusion wns made. .Now every lion. Member present must
recollect the course lately adopted by Mr. Smith O'Brien, and
the admirable sp,eeh he made on the subject of the ge-
neral state of Ireland—a speech which elicited universal
iipprot,ation, and bad raised the Hon. Member to the highest
rick of argumentative oratei. in that House.—( Hear, hear. )
lie had no doubt the observations of the Hon. and Learned
Member would be echoed back from Ireland, not as observe-
ticris coming from Protestants or Orangemen, but from a gen-
tleman whose career might lie saint, in some degree, to be that
of the Irish people. He regretted, too, that when the lion.
and Learned Member talked of conciliation to America, he did
not recollect that it was so near akin to Canada. He was,
therefore, ex'remely sorry when he heard him make his state-
ment. With regard to the motion of his Honourable
and Learned Friend, what was his object ? Ile called upon
them to tax realised property in Ireland. But whe,e
was he to find it ? Where would he find a landlord wins was
not strugeling with mortgages? Ireland had been labouring
under many ills; it had been pictured by the Hon. and Learned
Member as a poor. impoverished country, and yet he proposed
to burden it with an income-tax. The resources of Ireland
were not yet able to relieve the people from their safferings,
and any change in their condition, it was tee well known, would
be derived, not from the imposition of an income-tax, but by
the introduction of real and substantial capital from this
coutitry. He asked his Hon. and Learned Friend, then, if his
motion was politic at the present moment? His Hon. and
Learned Friend had declared that ro increase ought to be
made to the number of Irish Members, because those the
people did possess were absent from their posts. His best
answer to that argument was, that he was there to fulfil the
duties of a representative. He would not enter further into the
measure, but conclude with a simple protest against the im-
policy of bringing forward such a motion.—(Cheers.)
Colonel RA WDON denied that any Irish Member, in voting
on that occasion, would be actuated by any motives selfish-
ness, nor did he believe Hon. Gentlemen epposite would
support the motion upon the selfish principle that it would re-
lieve them from some portion of the burden imposed by the
ineorne-tax.—( Hear, hear.) He thought it was exceedingly
unwise to introduce the income-tax into Ireland in the first
moments of her prosperity. It would press severely upon
small tradesmen and merchants. and might revive that distress
which his Hon. and Learned Friend, the Member for Dun-
preen, had sanguinely hoped was hourly being banished
from this hitherto unfortunate country. He hoped
he should not he felt to be intruding on the House,
hut he could not but feel a great objection to this tax, and that
it was consequently his duty to his constituents to bring before
the House one instance from history, which was of remarkable
significance at the present moment to the country. He
alluded to the conduct of this country towards America, and
begged to call the attention of Gentlemen of that House to the
consequences of thtit conduct, before they gave their votes for
the amendment of the Hon. Member for Bath. It was sup-
po,ed by the country Genth men who were Members of that
House: in the middle of last century. that if they could impose
taxes on America that their own burdens would be dimini,hed.
The necessary means were taken to impose those burdens, and
what was the consequence? A few short words were contained
in the speech from the Throne, and in 1764 certain stamp
duties were imposed on the North American Colonies. The
consequences very soon appeared. In 1765 a few more words
were contained in the royal speech—" The attention of Parlia-
ment was di:ected to matters of importance having reference
to America; disturbances had arisen there." The country
gentlemen were astonished. They -toad aghast. They evidently
saw that they were in the wr.yrig They saw then, as we
may see now, that such conduct was unworthy of us. He
trusted that there would be no repetition of this conduct to-
wards America. The motion before the House on this ques-
tion was a most important one, and if the principle which had
been used towards America were to he applied in this case to
Ireland, he felt assured that it would render the Government
of that country most difficult, if not altogether impossible, and
the success of this motion would at once bring on that diffi-
culty. They might defer the day of separation, but that sepa-
retem was inevheble. They 'might adjourn it for a season,
perhaps to a distal.t season, but to adjourn it for ever was im-
possible,

Mr. CURTEIS would make but a few observations is oppo-
sing the proposition of the Hon. Member for Bath As a mem-
ber of the Commission for the property and income-tax, he
felt that it was a tax which materially affected the manufac-
turing and commercial interests of the country. but much more
so the landed interests, and his experience on that Commission
led him to oppose the extension of this tax to Ireland, a country
which materially depended on the produce of its land.—( Hear,
hear. ) If the gentlemen who were ci nnected with
the landed interests of the country did not stand
against this tax—for, to the tax altogether, he was
opposed—he would ask them how their corstituents would feel
sati-fled with their conduct ? He considered himself called upon,
by his duty to those who sent him there, to oppose this tax in
every way. He could not see how the lower classes in Ireland
could be benefited by the extension of this tax to that country.
Fur if the gentlemen of landed interest were to be saddled with
this tax, it would be impossible for them to apply the means
they possessed for the improvement of their estates; whereas,
if left free to make such application of their means, it would
be doing much more good to the country than any that could
possibly arise from the imposition of a property and income-
tax. He believed that the major part of the landed interest—
he would not say the whole of the landed interest, but the
major part of those who formed it—were opposed to the tax.
They corn, lained, and justly complained, that the Right Hon.
Baronet the First Lord of the Treasury had givers them no
relief, while he left the whole burden of this tax upon their
shoulders. He must he considered disinterested in this
matter, fur he came forward unsupported by any great
section on either side of the House ; and he did
not rely on the votes of Hon. Members on the benches below

him ; but notwithstanding this, much as he disliked putting
the House to trouble, he should feel it his duty to divide it
witt n the main question of the continuance or the discontinu-

ance of the property and income-tax came before it. One con-
solation he had, that he fully relied on the suppoit of the
speeches of those members for Ireland who might be present,
and he hoped that their votes would be given in his favour, and
they might possibly get rid of the nuisance of this odious tax

aliOgeth.e.r. 'At alle.;ents, he should feol it his duty to take
the sense of tke House, whenever the main question was brought
before it.

Mr. BLACKSTONE would not occupy much of the time
of the House at that late hour of the night; but he was com-
pelled to say a few words before he gave his vote on the motion
of the Hon. Member for Bath. Whatever might be said re-
specting the property and income. tax by the Right Hon. Baro-
net at the head of the Government, it was plain to him that it
was intended to be a permanent tax, and he could not feel it
right that a permanent tax of this kind should be imposed en
England, Scotland, and Wales, without including Ireland also.
He well remembered a letter, addressed by the Hon. Member
for North Essex to the Right Hon. Baronet, when in the
Opposition in 11435, whet. the Right Hen. Baronet had stated
in reply, when an attempt was made to repeal the malt-tax, and
during a debate in that House—that it was his opinion that it
could not be disguised that if they (the landed interest) ob-
tained a repeal of the malt-tax, that it must. be at the expense
of the imposition of a property-tax ; and he warned them at
the result which would in that case most certainly ensue. O■
that occasion the Irish Members gave their votes against the
repeal of the malt•tax. He hoped the Right Hon. Baronet
would at once assent to the preposition of the Hon. Member
for Bath, in order to deal fairly with all her Majesty's subjects.
Mr. WALLACE said that no man in that House ha .l ex•
pressed a more decided or strong opinion aetti4l4 a property-
tax er an income-tax that. he had done. He had expresaert
'hat opinion at the time the tax was imposed at great length.
He stated then that he had seen such scenes of degradation,
that nothing would induce him to give his support to an income
or a property-tax. Things, however, had now altered; the
distinction seemed now to be well understood between a pro-
perty and an income-tax. He had now no objection to a pro-
perty-tax—indeed, be thought it a just one—but he objected
stronalv to an income-tax. With respect to the motion of his
Hon. and Learned Friend, the Member for Bath, he should
freely and fairly give his vote against it—( Hear, hear)—and
on that vote he had very little doubt he should be supported by
his constituents.—( Hear, hear.) If, lt.wever, they disap-
proved of the course he had pursu-d, he should directly say to
them," Your representation is in yourselves—find a better

man, if you think fit—l am your servant, bet if you think I
have not served you faithfully, by all means choose another for
your elves." He should vote without hesitation against the
prono.al of the Hon. and Learned Member for Bath.
Colonel S!BTHORP thought it to be his duty to support
the motion of the lion. Member for Bath.—( Hear, hear, and
laughter.) He should also vote against the continuance of the

income and property .tax anti! he was told by the Right Hon.
Baronet at the head of the Government that it was not his
intention to prolong its continuance beyond three years.—
( Hear, bear. ) If the tax was to be inflicted on the people of
England and Scotland, why, he would ask, was Ireland to be

exempted ? He considered that he did his duty to England,
Scotland, and Ireland, in voting for the motion of the Hun.

Memb .r for Bath.—(Cheers.) -
Lord PALMERSTON said that whatever the result of the
motion of the Hon. and Learned Member for Bath might be,
he certainly would have the satisfaction of having performed
that evening an unexampled thing—(Laughter)—for he had
obtained the support of Hon. Members who, on most subjects,
were directly opposed to him, and whose opinions were gene-
rally as wide from those entertained by the Hon. and Learned
Member as the poles were asunder. He had been supported by
the Members for Birmingham, Lincoln, Es4ex, and other places.
—( Hear.) He was not sorry the Hon. and Learned Member
had made the motion, because he thought the result would
show the people of Ireland, that there was a majority of that
House, who entertained a kind and considerate feeling to-
wards Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) He was not sorry the motion
had been made, but he regretted the manner in which the
Hon. and Learned Member had couched his speech.—( Hear,
hear.) He thought there were portions of that speech with
regard to Ireland, and Irish Members in that House, in
which he had expressed himself in language which he (Lord
Palmerston) could not but think the Hon. and Learned
Member would, on mature and cool consideration, be disposed
not wholly to approve. and which, if any other Member had
made use of, he would have been the first to condemn.—
(Hear, hear.) Ile (Lord Palmerston) did not lay much stress
on the argument that they ought not to subject Ireland to
the tax on account of the agitation that existed in the country
—( Hear, hear)—he thought the fact of agitation existing in
Ireland, if it was not founded on proper grounds, was no reason
why the tax should not be applied to Ireland—(Hear, hear)
—if, otherwise, it was just and expedient—( Hear.) He could
not shut his eyes to the fact, that the Irish
people considered that they had been long labJuring under a
heavy grievance, of which they thought they had a right to
complain.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman
had not been consistent in arguing the grounds on which his
motion was proposed. He contended that they ought to lay
equal taxes on Ireland, England, and Scotland, while he h7ra-
self proposed to apply one portion only to Ire:and, and there-
foie, instead of protueing equality, he carried out that ine-
quality of which he complained to a further degree. If the
tax was to be imposed on Ireland, he (Lord Palmerston) saw
no reason why it should not he imposed in the same manner as
it was done in England. If there was ground for extending
the tax to Ireland, let them extend it in an efficient manner.

He, however, thought it would be impolitic to extend it to
Ireland, a;it would not produce the 1-venue that was ex-

petted. They might gain some little more revenue by making
the tax apply to Ireland, but he thought the imposition of it
would sho•.e that a narrow view indeed had been taken of the

subject. If they employed all the means in their power to put in
force the resources of the country, the., would greatly increase
the prosperity of It eland.—( Hear, hear. ) Ireland contributed
far less to the resour.es of the empire than, from her population
and capab lities, might be expected. Capital was sowing into
it, and railways were extending, and he trusted that the
country would stand in a different position from that in which
it had hitherto done in relation to the! Toited Kingdom, and that
she would be able to give that contribution to the revenues of