Star.
London, England, 1830-02-24 00:00:00

6:teient to be such—(hear, hear) ; and would maintain, that occa-
sions frequently presented themselves which not only justified, but
imperatively called upon the representative to act contrary to the
eopular side of tt question. He could not refer to the last session
of Parliament for a proof of this opinion ; but would content
himself with appealing to the experience of the house, whether
that, as a principle, that as the
he was not justified in asserting
many were not at all times the best judges of their own interest,
it was expedient that the enlightened few should be vested with
discretionary power of acting in obedience to their own views of
the general welfare. He might fortify this declaration by the
highest authorities on constitutional matters. It had been truly
observed, and could not be too often tepeated, that honourable
members sat in that house, in a constitutional point of view,
not as the mere agents of this or that district, of this or that in.
terest, but of the general interests of the country.—(hear.) He
wished to know the limit of the noble lord's proposition. He
should like to know if Birmingham, Leeds, and other large towns,
were permitted to return representatives to that house, why other
equally large towns should not, at the same time, be vested with
the same constitutional prerogative. 'Why, for example, if a town
containing 82,000 inhabitants were vested with the right of return.
ing two representatives, should a town containing half that number
of inhabitants, or even 20,000 be denied the right of returning
one ? Or, not to confine his argument to the large towns, why,
ii Rutlandehire a small county, returned two representatives,
should not Staffordshire, Middlesex, and other populous counties
return more ? But the fact was, that there was no necessity for
either change in the present system—inasmuch, he repeated, as they
sat there, not as the representatives of particular, but of the general
interest.
Lord AIORPETH said, the honourable member for Wooton
Basset (Mr. Twiss) began by declaring that he thought the govern-
ment and the house were fully justified in making concessions to the
Roman Cotholics, because great danger was to be apprehended from
Nfusing them ; and that he was not disposed to make the cones-
rions now required by the Reformers, because the same danger did
not demand the same sacrifices. (Bear.) Now he (Lord Dior-
peth) was quite prepared to adinit that the same danger was not to
:`C apprehended from a refusal of the noble lord's motion; but he
really must contend that there might be very great danger in refusing
to tike the claims of the country into their consideration. The
'orate of the country had undergone a great change within the last
tew years. The people were every day acquiring intelligence,
and with that intelligence they obtained moral power; but it was
the misfortune of the thee, that while a great portion of the country
watt thus advancing in moral power, it was retrograding in physical
power. The people were becoming more enlightened, but they were
at the same time becoming more distressed ; and when they saw
the population of Sheffield petitioning, and those of Birmingham as-
sociating, he thought there were signs of those times in which it was
not quite safe to resist the just wishes and reasonable remonstnutces
of those who now claimed a participation in the advantages of a free
representation. A noble relation of his had proposed an amendment
to the same &int as that which had been carried in the year
1819. But the moment he heard those resolutions mentioned he
felt satisfied that they presented in themselves an insuperable ob-
jection to their being adopted. Since the time these resolutions
were passed they had disfranchised Grampound and Penryn, and
they were tardily proceeding to legislate with respect to East Het-
ford ; but ten years had passed away in the interval, and he would
ark where are the representatives of Leeds; of Manchester, and of
Birmingham ? (Hear, hear, hear.) In his opinion the adoption
of the amendment of his noble relation would lead to fresh delays
and fresh disappointments ; and the great question of a reform of
the representation which in the present instance-
- " In decimum vestigia retulit annum,"
would probably be allowed to rest altogether, or return under their
consideration in the course of another ten years. For his part, he
was satisfied that the propositions of his Noble Friend involved no.
thing new in principle, or inconvenient in practice, and he was de.
titruined to give them his entire concurrence. No honest man
could lay his hand on his heart, and, looking at the amount of tax-
ation in the fifteenth year of peace, and the manner in which all
reductions were resisted,declare sincerely that such things could have
taken place, if the representation had been reformed. The character of
that house, it should be recollected, did not stand very high in
the opinions of the people. There was nothing in their principles or
their conduct which could justify a refusal of the claims of the pe-
titioners ; and, in his opinion, a temperate and timely reform of the
representation, while it formed a safeguard against any virulent
expression of popular feeling, was at the same time recommended
by every consideration of justice, policy, and prudence. For these
reasons he gave his cordial support to the noble lord's resolution.
Lord VALLETORT began by observing, that he looked at men
as well as measures (hear, and a laugh;) and, when he saw the
noble mover of the resolution vote only three days ago for a general
measure of reform, he could nor avoid having some suspicion of that
proposition they were now considering. He looked, indeed, on
the motion of the noble lord, as the advanced guard of those se-
formers, who had with very little address made a violent and
directed assault on a former evening, against all the political Intim-
titres of the country (Symptoms of impatience began at this mo-
ment to manifest themselves on the opposition side of the house, and
the honourable member was from this cause audible only at intervals
throughout the remainder of his speech.)
Dr. LUSIIINGTON said, the time was come when no man
could assert the antiquity of an abuse as a reason for its continuance.
Alterations had been made in the whole system of our laws;
and were they to be told that a system of representation,
framed 300 years ago—that abuses which had been acknow-
ledged in tne times of James and the two Charles,-- and
when at the same time not a borough or city remained the
same as it was then, was to remain untouched 'and unal-
tered? They must either admit that the representation of
that time, or of the present, is inefficient, if at is contended that it
vould remain as it is at present ; for how can it suit two periods so
thteerint ? The honourable member for Winchelsea (Brougham)
lied told them in one word, more powerful then thirty sentences, that
tlie schoolmaster was abroad (hear.) Could they send him home
ein ? Could they blind the people now ? (bear.) His course
was as certain as that of the arrows from the bow, and as irrevo.
cable (heat.) Was it true that neither Birmingham, nor 3lane
e'ester, no Leeds. had never suffered any inconvenience from
never being represented in that house ? Ile was old enough to
remember the time when the town of Birmingham suffered a
great and direct inconvenience from not having any repre-
sentative in that house. He alluded to the year 1812, when, in
corsequence of the government measure of the orders in council,
the trade of Birmingham was reduced to the last stage of de-
gradation and suffering. But it was not Birmingham alone. Any
town having a hundred thousand English inhabitants had a right
to have sonie ibtlividual in that house on whom they would have a
just claim to attend to their complaints, and endeavour to obtain
fin them redress. It war well known that the inhabitants of popu-
lous but unrepresented towns were frequently compelled to go from
me member to another' and beg that he would take up their cause;
well knowing that although the member for the county might
lay their petition on the table, lie would be unable to explain
tiieir wants anti wishes to the house. After all the consideration
w.:ieh he had been able to give to the subject, he was persuaded that i
the house would not be able long to withhold a reform of the re-
presentation, in some shape or other; gradual, if they pleased—. ,
parded, if they liked—limited at first to such cases as those under
consideration, but proceeding on the saute principle as that
which was the prir.ciple of his noble friend's motion, and applying
equally to every town in the country entitled by its population
to the privilege of the elective franchise. There could be no
better criterion of the right to that privilege than large numbers and
great wealth. " Sir," continued the hon. and learned gentleman,
am in my conscience convinced--and I do not speak it in hos:
1:11:y to his majesty's ministers—to whom, on the contrary, I am
deeply grateful tbr more than I expected front them—but I am in
..er conscience convinced that a pressing time is rapidly citing
upon us. hat was once an inconvenience, has now becoinabso
en-a:lngle oppressive to the people, that measures more efficacious,
taking a wider range, and of much se.erer character than any hitherto
Foliose& must speedily be adopted.
Lurd VA LLE TORT explained.
Sir D. al I ;RRA Y said, that the noble lord had on this °cession,
.14 he bud always upon all others, brought forward his motion with
gat I, input. and moderation. In the speech with which he intros
duetd that motion he had told the house that they must remember
that our constitution was not a Grecian temple of such admirable
grypettioter as rendered it susceptible of no change. He (Sir G.
Aurray) did not regret that the constitution was not a Grecian
temple. He rejoiced rather that it was as the noble lord
:Id termed it—a Gothic structure, put together at different
periods by our ancestors. It was, in his opinion, in that ferns
.sere durable than any Grecian structure would• be, and be, there-
'ore. thought it better adapted to this country. He was quite ready
to admit the justice of the principle of the noble kid, that 11 was
'apothems to give representatives to the great towns of the king-
du ; but he could not agree to cony that object into execution
.Ithe way which the noble lord proposed. Me was perfectly
y. on :he occasional disfranchisement of any corrupt too-
„ugh, to transfer the right of representation to a great town ;
he had a great objection to augment the number of Members
,1 that house, and thereby to deeteol the
lie had a snarerespect fee what !Lel:tiled popular, rpricrdcn
in. He
54• satisfied that the desire of the was always to do that
winch was. right, and if they ever fe= wars it was because they
..fe led into them by Ulu and blind guides. This, biased, was
aot unfrequently the we, and it was for that reason that the Bevan-
"ent appeared indifferent to opinions caromed by the people, it
,
their duty not to adapt measures hastily, Intt w
RT.
:•cularly and deliberately how they would tend. to the pub-
iie ,400&
General GASCOVNZ said, it was notecioue *hoc, if there was
env interest not properly represented in that bones, it *se the ma.
%dictating interest, and be thought, therefore, that thin could be

no good ground for denying the towns now in question the right to
send members to parliament. He would recommend to the noble
lord (Sandon) to withdraw his amendment, and allow the bill to go
into a committee, when it could be amended.
Mr. C. WYNN said, so far from an increase being necesaary he
thought that decidedly the contrary would be preferable. Cer-
tainly the number of six might not appear to be very great, but this
might lead to an indefinite increase of number. The claims of
Sheffield had been urged, and, in answer, the town of Halifax had
been named as entitled to representatives. That town was nearly
as rich, and fully as populous. If these claims were allowed
they might be followed with those of the towns of
Rochdale, of Blackburn, of Rotherham, and Huddersfield, and
other places, which were all rich and populous. Indeed,
there would be no end to the increase on this plea. (Rear.)
He was satisfied that the house was less fit for the dispatch of pub-
lic business since the union, in consequence of the increase of the
number of members. He should not object to the house recog-
nising by a resolution, that it was desirable, in case of disfran-
chising any place for corruption, to transfer the right of franchise
to these large towns; but he most strongly opposed the present
course, which he conceived was pregnant with inconvenience and
danger.

Mr. HUSKISSON could not give a silent vote upon this occa-
sion. He had come to this decision after great doubt and
hesitation, and sorry he was that he could not concur in the amend-
ment of his noble friend. Looking at the amendment of his noble
friend, he found that the large towns not having representatives was
a great practical evil. He had then made that confession, which
being made, the amendment went on to say, that the detection of a
crime must be awaited before the remedy was to be applied. After
East Retford, he could have but little hope in such a course, even
if it were consistent in all Its parts ; and therefore, although
he was sorry for it, he could not support the amendment of his
noble friend. He did not think it necessary to go into the wide
question of parliamentary reform. With respect to the objection up-
on the Union with Scotland, he did not see how it was possible to lay
much weight upon that. The article of the Union with Scotland
was more violated by the Union with Ireland, in the admission
of one hundred members at once, than it could be by the pro-
position of the noble lord (Lord J. Russell). The case requiring a
remedy was not fanciful ; it was not in theory only, but in practice
that It existed, and he thought that it ought immediately to be at.
tended to. To parliamentary reform, as a remodeling of the repre-
sentative system was called, he always had been and hcalways should
be opposed. Such an attempt would lead to anarchy, and end only in
confusion or military despotism. He should have been well con-
tented if the franchise of East Retford Lad been transferred to Bir-
mingham. His right hon. friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
had recommended him to make his stand in the swamp of East act-
ford, and to encourage hint had offered as a further latitude the
plains of Bassetlaw ; but he was for making the remove to Birming-
ham at once. If any other proposition could be made less likely to
to injure the constitution than that of the noble lord (Lord J.Russell)
he should be ready to listen to it, and to adopt it. He knew how-
ever of no such proposition. It was idle to say that such towns
as Birmingham had not interests which it was impossible for
tire county members to attend to. Birmingham was at the head
of a great manufacturing interest, and he should not object to any
proposition to give representatives to any town similarly circum-
stanced. His right hon. friend (Mr. Peel) said he was favourable
to the large manufacturing towns being represented, but when an
opportunity presented itself, as in the cage of East Retford, it could
not be taken advantage of. Such he feared would be the case if
another Feat Retford occurred. He would not innovate to the giving
up of any real advantage, but he would innovate in the manner pro-
posed. It was not safe or politic to lag behind the spirit of the
age. The noble lord was young enough to hope to compass his
desires, and would in alt probability live to hear his pre-
sent opponents acknowledge the merits of his plan. If the noble
lord should obtain leave to bring in his bill, he would suggest the
propriety of introducing a clause which would render the decision
of two committees of that house decisive, and enable the house to
proceed to the difianehisement of a borough so convicted, without
reference to the House of Lords. That house he contended was the
fitting guardian of our privileges, and he was satisfied that nothing
effectual could be done until such a course was adopted. The right
hon. gentleman concluded by declaring his intention to support the
motion.

Lord W PAULETT supported, the motion of his noble friend,
on the ground that Birmingham and other great towns required
adequate representation.

The Bluquis of BLANDFORD : I shall feel it my duty to
support the motion of the Noble Lord, although I am free to con.
feu I do but look upon it as a tub to the whale. And I seise this op-
portunity to give notice that after the Easter recess, I shall move
this House that a Reform in the Representation of the People is
expedient.

Mr. BRIGHT expressed admire to see the representation in that
house restored to the ancient constitution. His hope was that those
hon. members who had influence with the noble lord would induce
him to bring into parliament the representatives of great interests
which remain unrepresented.

Mr. Secretary PEEL said he should follow the example of the
noble lord in the line he was capable of taking with success. He
alluded to the moderation that noble lord had displayed; the
temperance so well calculated to conciliate difference of opi-
nion upon this question. So long as he had held a seat in Par.
liamen:, and frequently as the house had been engaged in the
discussion of reform, it had seldom happened that he had taken
a share in the question. Feeling that the subject had been die.
cussed by persons of pre.tminent abilities, he had been content
to give a silent vote on the question. At the same time, although
be had not taken an active part in the debate, he had weighed
the question rather as a witness than a partisan, being convinced by
the powerful arguments of Mr. Burke, and his right bon. friend
Mr. Canning, that reform could not be introduced without danger to
the constitution. The arguments of Burke and Canning had proved
that they could not introduce reform upon any principle of demo-
cratic representation. Some exaggeration had occurred, but their
arguments were decisive in his mind as to the danger of the expert.
meet. Mr. Canning had argued that the constitution of that house
was founded on prescription. It was a pan of the Constitu.
don. They had the House of Lords and the King, and the
House of Commons was only a branch of the constitution. If they
adopted reform, they would give the House of Commons a power
1 inconsistent with the constitution of the House of Lords, and our
limited monarchy. The right hon. Secretary saw emhing to induce
him to vote for the scheme of reform. It had been said that reform
would have the effect of discouraging war and a profligate expendi-
ture of the public money. He doubted very much whether that
would be the effect. The example of free republics in ancient times
did not afford many proofs of a desire on the pan of the people to
avoid war.--Genoa and Venice would not prove that popular govern.
'meats were always the best. The right hon. Secretary did not be-
lieve that the wars of this country had been earned on against
a senendreriod
I the common sentiment. There might have been 1 when the
people became tired of war, but they had y been clamorous
for it. He had read the beautiful speech dressed in 1780 by Mr.
Barks to his constituents at Bristol. Mr. Burke did not succeed as
a candidate at the election, and one of the strongest objections was
that he had done every thing he could to dissuade the Government
from a war. Mr. Burke suffered unpopularity on that account, and
could not succeed with his constituents In the war of 1793 it was
impossible to say the feeling of the country was not for war. He re.
membered Mr. Fox moved a resolution condemnatory of the war,and
found only 36 members to support him. The number which opposed
him was B.This was a proof that the people were desirous of wer,and
that parliament did not force them into war against their consent.—
He did not believe • that more of the popular voice in that house
would have the effect of preventing war. If any tbing could confirm
him in his opinion that the house could not be better constituted
than at present, it was the speech of an hon. member who had stated
ihat the house was disposed on all occasions to accomplish reform.
He did not believe that that house, under any reform, would have a
sincerer desire to protect the people and defend their rights. Thei
right honourable gentleman alluded to a question put to him on afro.
mcr night, in which it was asked whether he had beanie slaw in citel
state of Georgia, by which every free memo of colour was put
under quarantine ? Making allowance for the Masseuse St
slavery in that country, he did not think the Homed Commie
would have passed such a law as be should read--( The tight ho.
nournble gentleman &wailingly read an selectman, in Whisk is
was said, if say free slave should teach another days to Ali he'
should be punished with fine, whipping, and impdsenemille.).-s
He did not think that house would inflict a punishment of liv and
whipping on any one who might Mitch a fres person of coleus to
ra4. With respect to the proposition of the noble Ind, it amtsend,
to him that great objection existed to his Wined plea. Mel
noble lord proposed they should add to the House of ColiMill.o4
six members from towns to he mentioned ; and that ID Cone e
corruption in boroughs, the right to return members to igeolfsp+
meat should cease. Several gentlemen had peony was d,
in opposition to the measure, that is MO" 11 departure fsatp else Am.
of Union, iVben the number of forty-live commoner, was pamed i
for Seothod, it would not be consonant with the Act of 'Union
to add six to the English reprenotation. if sharked da etlis4,l
Scotland had a right to •the some ,addision, and kdemi Jhelum& i
If they were that night to consent to admit ids gone
dyes, he was sure they would receive applications boat =l"lgisat
towns. That six supernumerary members were to be appointed 1

appeared at least to be a hovel proposition. if they added super-
numerarieN to any establishment, the application for admissions would
be numerous indeed. This novelty was not essential to the proape.
rity of Manchester, Birmingham, or Leeds. The noble lord admitted
that nothing could be more extraordinary than the rapid prosperity
of Manchester. He could not accept the proposition of the noble
lord as an amendment upon the motion. He also opposed the motion.
because six new members for the manufacturing and trading interests
would induce die landed interest to send more members. The
noble lord had proposed that they would transfer, in case of corrup-
tion, the franchises to great towns, but why should they tie them-
selves down to any specific mode of proceeding before they knew
what the offence was. When bribery was established, it would be
time to deal with it. It would be improper for any minister to
pledge himself to second the intentions of any party. He should
not become a partisan, but preserve a steady middle course, leaving
himself at full liberty to act for the benefit of the country.
Mr. BROUGHAM said that, whatever difference of opinion there
might be, on some parts of the question between the right hon. gent.
and himself, he must say that he felt highly gratified by his candid
and liberal speech. He looked upon it as an event favourable to
the cause of reform,—as an auspicious circumstance to that cause.
He (Mr. Brougham) should not deviate from the examples of can.
dour set by the right hon. gentleman, and of moderation by the
noble lord (Russell), if he stated, as he felt in discharge of his duty
in that house bound to do, his obligation for his able and temperate
speech, though not the less against the opinions he (Mr. Brougham)
entertained ; and if he, In shortly adverting to the grounds of
his difference of sentiments, should be diverted in some degree
from the subject of parliamentary reform. He had resolved to
confine himself to the proposition of the noble lord, which was
not a question of parliamentary reform generally, but a specific
proposition, which a person might support who was against parlia-
mentary reform ; and some had done so to-night, because they were
the enemies of parliamentary reform generally. He (Dlr. Brougham)
was not one of those who believed that the character of parlia-
ment would be greatly changed for the better by the infusion
of a large portion of popular opinion,—by the addition of a larger
proportion of popular members. He was not one of those who
expected that such a change would provide a greater security against
unnecessarily going to war—an evil which was itself equivalent to
all calamities that the country could be exposed to, because it in-
volved in itself every form, every species of public prospective evil.
Although he could think that Parliamentary reform would not in-
crease the security against such calamities, he did not say that even
a slender diminution of this important security would change his
opinion of Parliamentary reform ; but it would make him pause.
(hear, hear.) But it was one thing to say that the reform of Par-
liament would not add to the security, and another thing that
that reform would sensibly increase the risk ; for both principle
and practice, reason and experience, satisfied him that that security
would not be lessened. lie (Mr. Brougham) was not bound to
show that it would be lessened ; it was sufficient if he could show
that it would not be increased. During the French and the Ameri-
can wars there prevailed a strong propensity, not only a vain, silly,
and empty, but a criminal and guilty love of what the nation might
be said to have worshipped under the name of national glory (hear.
hear); and now were to be seen the evils of the passion of that
generation, chile their children were, in sorrow and sadness, reap.
ing the bitter fruits of their folly (hear.) But it was neither the
praise nor the blame, it was truth and justice to say,that the crimes of
those wars were not imputable to this house of parliament ; it was
neither the constituents nor the representatives—neither the persons
represented nor those not represented--neither members nor electors,
who were answerable for these wars: they were owing to the general
feeling of the country. So far for the commencement of the war.
But there was another remark. Did the representatives of those
parliaments impose any control on the popular delusion, by the
operation of their superior wisdom and knowledge, and keep
apart, as far as they could, from the broils and tumults of the
multitude? Did the members of those parliaments open the
eyes of their fellow-chisens ? Did those members, mixed, as it
was said they were, partly consisting of popular representatives, and
partly of persons not so chosen. but eminent for their wisdom, their
knowledge, their understanding--did they furnish that check and
control which they ought to have done ? No : the utmost that
could be said was, that the people were as bad as the parliament,
land he did not deny that the parliament erg as bad as the people.
—(Cheers). There was another remark, and he wondered it had
escaped the acuteness of the right honourable gentleman. It was
very true that at the beginning, parliament was backed by the
people. But as it was said some hundred years ago, the rabble
goes sometimes right, but on other occasions it goes wrong. It
went so then ; and though he wished to speak with respect,
parliament did not prevent them; even the least popular members,
the members from the county of Cornwall, did not prevent the
multitude from going astray (a Isugb). But the people opened
their eyes a long while before the parliament did. The American
war might be popular in 1776 and 1777 ; but that it was so in
1778 and 1779, when the French government took part in it, he de-
nied. The successes of the war might have made it popular for a
time, but after Saratoga, and the defeats our forces experienced, it
would be impossible for ;any men to doubt that the American
war had outlived its popularity at that time. In 1707 and 17911
the French war had outlived its popularity; but they who laid on
the taxes were not so likely to feel their weight as those who paid
them. People, when they suffered the actual calamities of war,
opened their eyes much sooner than their rulers, who only felt a
moderate share of those calamides. Therefore, though these wars
might not have been prevented, they would probably have had a
shorter existence from an increase in the number of popular mem.
hers In Parliament—(hear. hear.) The right honourable gentle.

man had expressed a high opinion of our American brethren,
and he was pleased to join in sentiments which did not often
proceed from that bench. Ile (Mr. Brougham) joined with
him in deeply lamenting that thew should exist on the part
of the legislature of a member of that great union, an act so die.
graceful u that to which the right hon. gentlemen had alluded.
But he contended that this fact had no tendeney—not the remotest—
bearing on the argument for puliamer.tary reform, even of the most
extravagant kind, to which he was not friendly,—he meant universal
sufferage ; that the act passed by the suteof Georgia offered even the
shadow of an argument against even universal suffrage be did moat en.
tirely deny. Ney,if he was an advocate of universal saline he should
rest his fine, on that very page of the statute book of Georgia, and
say, " Hue is an instance of the effects of legislating for people
who are not represented." This was the reams why those
people blackened in the sight of the state of Georgia. He granted
that there were scandalous clauses in the laws against the slaves of
that state. The right bon. gentleman asked if this house would do
say such thing ? He (Mr. Brougham) did Dot wish to speak die-
respectfully of the house, but hs.doulted if be could trust it, if such
mature came before it in a regular way, and if the house was In the
same relative situation as in Georgia, and assuming that D por-
tion of our community were stamped with a peculiar character,
and htcapacitated by a municipal law co-extensive with the
law of nature. One reason he had for saying this was that
he vecalleeted that in Berbadoes, which was our best regulated
slave colony, and called Little Itnglead, a law was paned for the
PTONCIIOO of the white inhabitants, which enacted that if any white.
mem should by accident, heat of blood, or in silt:defence. kill a
slave, the said white man should go absolutely free and unpunished;
but Warp such white person should maliciously end intentionally
kill sad murder • slave, then be should be lined 111. I6e.
He would defy any member to ransack all the Statute, of North
America, and produce any law which should equal in cruelty
that be had just stated. Is what an abject condition must that,
class be, and whit must be the character of the people and the
;gent, where such a law would meet with the approbation

of she legislature ! (.Hear.) And wen ibex no Wear* to
tx round Rester tame? But he should abstain from aiming into
*sails uldeb might excite recolleetiorm of a disavowal* mature
The right &insurable gentleman hadreiledeodad that the adrolesios
a .4i OW foram of popular ogle* dituill make Ill* brol,ch
the eenstitetioo encroach upon shoo** mid vould give * the
people too much power. Ile could we Do groom' for this arrow
henries. Ile was of opiniin %blithe trial majority of the people

were not desirous of ;thing too much power to the popular branch,
but were most willing to support the rights of the ati,:ocrecy
and the crown. What security should we have against change and
revolution, even if the representation were confined within far nar-
rower bound. than at present, if no public voice were heard widths
these walls ? iVhat was it that, even under such circumstances,
would afford us security for the permanent existence of the crown,
the aristocracy, and the house, accept this--that the great bulk of
the people were, on the whole, and take them all in all, a loyal and
orderly community, and that they did not desire to see a revolution ?
—(hear.) In his conscience be believed this to be the best security
for Kings, Lords, and Commons; and that there was no country
under the sun where the aristocracy had so much weight AS in this.
That was the result of all his experience. Those who were
ro-
parliamentary refomi hoped to sec the influence of the people
(which was a beneficial influence) continued and augmented, whereas
it was only exerted by spirts and accidentally. They wished to see
the machine of government better regulated than at present—to sub.
stitute influence for force, love for fear, confidence for distrust : thry
wished to see all these latter things rendered nugatory and needless by
a truly popular representation. The question betore the house was,
whether his noble friend's proposition should be adopted—whether
three great cities should have representatives in parliament as well as
three of the paltriest borough', possessing no wealth, trade, or ir. .
tellect. Did he mean to deny that public opinion found its way
within those walls ? No, he should be the very last man to dispute
it : his complaint and objection was, that it was a long time in finding
its way thither ; but if we bad a reform in parliament, it would come
more directly. We should not have to wait years and years till an
abuse had been undermined—till the point was carried by sap
instead of by storm. Had this been the case, we should nut
have lived to see that accursed African slavery condemned by
the unanimous voice of the country thirty years before it was put an
end to by parliament. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member for Tre-
gony gave a pregnant instance of the disadvantage of great towns like
those now In question not being represented. During the great cont.
mercial struggle*, when the interests of the inhabitants of these places
were at stake to an enormous extent, they were compelled to come
here by deputies—to hold a sort of parliament of their own across
Palsce.yard, and day after day to canvass the votes of members
who were perfect strangers to them, on public grounds, and to tely
upon the assistance of men whom faces they had never before seen.
That was a case which Birmingham, Manchester, and Leeds, could
not have forgot. Indeed the people of Birmingham and Mancliceter
(of Leeds he could not speak from personal knowledge) had changed
their sentiments on the subject of Parliamentary reform upon this
ground ; though before they held that there could be no better state
of things than that which then existed, and laughed to scorn those
who said that they were not represented, replying, that they were
virtually represented by the members for Liverpool end the
county members for Il'arwickshire. (Hear, hear.) Yet now
all those opinions were changed, and the inhabitants of Binning.
ham and Manchester were in the van of the supporters of a practical
and limited parliamentary reform.—(Hear.) He denied that th...
proposed addition to the representation was any infringement on the
treaty of union with Scotland. It had been so argued, but Ise de.
vied the statement, both as far as the fact and the law of the case
was concerned. The act of union said that Scotland should be
represented by 16 peers and 45 commoners in the imperial parlia-
ment, but it did not follow that England was to be confined to 513
members. The argument of the union did not prevent the abolition
of heritable jurisdictions in 1746, although that alteration involved
a private right, which, according to the terms of the act of union.
was not to be interfered with except for the manifest benefit of Stet-
land. As to the treaty of union with Ireland, in 1800, that was not
so much a parliamentary reform as a parliamentary revolution, by
which 100 members bad been inserted in the House of Commons,
and he knew not bow many representative peers were introducel
into the peers; yet no Scotch member raised his voice against this
proceeding, or condemned it as a departure from the treaty of
union with Scotland. What did his noble friend's motion call
ffitt ? What was its immediate object ? It was rather a recurrence
to the practice of former tknse than an innovation upon the present.
it was more in the nature of a restoration than a revolution (hear)
*r though Birmingham, Leeds, and Manchester had, as yet, sent
Unrepresentative' to Parliament, could it be doubted if there
plat towns had borne the same proportion as at present to the
slat of the country, at the period when the representation was
established on its present footing, that they would have been re.
lamented from the beginning ? The inhabitants of Manchester and
&OM TIM 180,000; of Birmingham, 130,000; were these to be
ffilk unrepresented ? To such a height had these towns grown with
the successful growth of trade and commerce among us. Yet these
great places were on the footing of paltry country towns, in all their
internal and local arrangements. In fact, they were placed on the
same footing with manors with manor courts (he spoke particu-
'laxly of Manchester, with the adjoining town of Salford), and
with regulations better adapted to a population of 5,000 persons
(tee number of inhabitants in the beginning of the last cen.
levy) than to their present extent and importance. He begged
to guard the house against being led away by one topic urged
le NAT to the Noble Lord's proposition,--namely, where was this
wand To-day Birmingham, Manchester, and Leeds claimed
Mbe represented ; to-morrow Sheffield, and other towns similarly
circumstanced, would require the same privilege. Well, this an.
ewer, if answer it could be called, went the length of saying there
shall be no iruptovnment,--no reform whatsoever. " Ann me
with this topic," continued the honourable and learned gentleman,
" and find me a set of men simple enough to listen to it,
and if I am the sworn foe of all improvement, the unvarying
friend of abuse, and the tried enemy of reform,-41 I am the man
to cry out unceasingly, things as they are, the whole of
things as they are, and nothing else but things as they are,-
arm me but with this, and back me with men sufficiently misled et
bewildered to believe me, or timid and thoughtless enough to be
scared by the outcry, and to concur in the desire for things as they
are, the whole of things as they are, and nothing else but things es
they are,' and never shall we see reform or improvement the most
pus sl l vital I never shall we see abuses attacked with a prospect
oremesenf• (Hear.) But we hid a right to expect better things
Alm some of the members of the present government. He said,
in% oe the right hon. gentleman opposite, let the government
premed firmly anti strongly in its own good purpose—let it not be
drawn sable from pursuing useful measures by the feat of doctrines
of ill repute being attributed to it,—let it not be allured by a love of
mock popularity to adopt measures which had no claims for appru.
beckon upon any solid judgment, which were not grounded upon
right reason and sound principle ,—let the right hon. gentleman
continue to love thnt popularity which followed useful action*, mid
was not sought after, and let the members of that housirespee t the voice
of their constituents when it coincided with the dictates of reason
and their own unbiassed judgments, and trust to the country to join
them in the approbation and adoptiou of measures such an that now
proposed. (The hon. gentleman sat down amid cheers, and loud
cries of" Question.")
The house then divided, when the numbers were—
For the motion . . 140 I Against it .
Majority . . 48.
Adjourned at HALF-PAST Owl O'CLOCK.

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