The Sun.
London, England, 1829-05-08 00:00:00

Irish labourer. The villifish labourer, on the contrary,
knowing that the pith is bound to provide him with
bread, lodging, and meat, threatens fearlessly to thiow
himself on the poor-raters unless be receives-an equivalent
for his labour. The evil of the Irish system, namely, the
potatoe-minimum, did not stop here ; for the potatoe,
though a very productive esculent, was liable to blight and
frost in the winter, and always fell off in the spring sea-
son. You could not preserve it by any exertions foranore
than a year; and if there happened to be a failure in the
new crop, where then were the stores for the subsistence
of the poor? The granary may be full to overflowing,
but of what advantage is it to them ? Their labour is
paid for in the potatee, and they are therefore unable to
purchase bread. Hence he would say that if bread was
the staff of life, the potatoe was nothing but its crutch.
-Let the House inquire how the different systems worked,
which were adopted in the two countries. And first in
Ireland. Bad times come : what, then, is the state of
the Irish operatives? They hang about the factory, from
which they have been discharged, as long as they enter-
tain hopes of being again employed there. At last the
exhaustion of their funds compels them to seek agricultural,
instead of manufacturing employment. They either look
for it in their own country, or they cross the water to
look for it here. In the mean time a better season aro
rives, and then where are your good operatives? Gone
no one knows where, and the Irish manufacturer closes
his market from the consciousness of his inability to com-
pete with the English manufacturer. Now consider the
different state of things in England. When bad times
come, the English manufacturer places his men on half
I work, relief is got for them from the parish ; they are
thus left on the spot, and they go on waiting for better
times. Who then, in possession of capital, would fix upon
Ireland as the place in which he would expend it? For
these reasons he was convinced that the Irish labourer
must either be raised to the level of the English, or the
English labourer would sink to the level of the Irish. No-
thing could be done for Ireland without enabling the Irish
labourer to purchase the comforts and luxuries of life to
' the same extent as the English labourer. He was con-
vinced that tlsis could only be obtained by extending to
Ireland the system of poor laws which existed in England
from 1605 to 1795 ; and which had raised it to a state of
industry and frugality superior to that of any other country
in the world. Such a system would increase the price of
labour in Ireland, and would thus tend to the general
tranquillity and prosperity of that country. If the wages of
the labourer, which he would take at sd. a day now, were
increased, as he expected that they would be increased by such
a measure, to 16d. a day, it would not be unbecoming to
the House to consider the beneficial effect which such an i
improvement in his condition, would have upon the re-
venue. He had no doubt, that if a good system of poor
laws, free from the defects of the English system, were
introduced into Ireland, property in that country would
be increased tenfold irf value, and that the landlords of
Ireland would hail the day with triumph, which enabled
them to exchange a poor law for a pauper system. The
Hon. Member concluded by moving, amid loud cheering,
the following resolution :—" Resolved, that this House is
of opinion, that it is expedient to take into its early con-
sideration, in the next session of Parliament, the condition
of the poor of Ireland, with a view to consider the pro-
piiety of introducing into that country a system of poor
Lows, subject to such modifications as Parliament may
think proper to enact, with reference to the peculiar cir-
cumstances of that country."
Lord F. L GOWER wished to avoid pledging the Go-
vernment in any way upon its course respecting this ques-
tion. Every Member of Parliament was aware of the mass
and the value of the evidence which the House had col-
lected on the condition of Ireland. In the reports to which
he was alluding, he found but a very small portion of evi-
dence bearing directly, though he admitted that much of it
bore by implication, upon this subject, Strange to say,
that evidence, little though it was, appeared to him to tell
strongly against the motion of the Hon. Member. He
alluded particularly to the evidence given by Mr. Delacour,
who was one of the warmest and most enthusiastic
friends of Ireland. It was upon these grounds that he
should take the liberty to move the previous question, not
meaning thereby to express any hostility to the motion of
the Hon. Member for Waterford, nor intending to pledge
the Government upon it either on one side or on the other.
Mr. W. HORTON could not but regret that his non.
Friend the Member for the County of Waterford had
restricted Ills motion to the consideration of the pro-
priety of introducing a system of poor laws into Ire-
land ; and he was equally sorry that the Noble Secre-
tary had met that motion with the previous question,
as it-prevented the House from .taking into its con-
sideration the whole condition of the poor in Ireland.
IHis Hon. Friend appeared to be of opinion that the true
solution of the difficulty consisted in the introduction of
the poor laws into Ireland,--a system from which he
augured the utmost advantages and the removal of a con-
siderable part of the evils that at present afflicted that
unhappy country. He concurred with his Hon. Friend,
in thinking that it was impossible to contemplate as per-
manent, a difference in the condition of the labouring
classes of the two countriez, The question was, should
we introduce the English poor laws into Ireland in a me-
dified shape, or destroy the poor laws in England, and
place the two countries on a par in this respect ? No one
could say that in this go9ntry the poor laws ought to be
pot an end to: the only matter remaining for our consi-
deration was a choice of the time for introducing the poor
laws into tretaxil He would here observe that he had a
motion on the subject of pauperism in Ireland, which
stood upon the paper for this evening, but he had no in-
tention to bring it forward upon the present occasion.—
However, be could not avoid availing himself pf the oppor-
tunity to press upon the House the paramount necessity
of no longer delaying to look deeply into the subject.—
Enaigration, it must be admitted; was calculated to
clear away some of the difficulties of the case, But to
suppose that any body favourable to emigration enter-
tained so extravagant a notion as that its adoption would
introduce such an improvement in human affairs as
would remove the state of poverty in which a mul-
-1 titude of individuals must necessarily be placed, was
altogether absurd. All he contended for was, that
want and poverty might be alleviated, not removed,
by adopting that conpiutly with other measures.--
He might be asked, " Did he ever expect that there would
not be distress in manufacturing districts 7" He admitted
it was impossible so to adjust the supply and demand as
not to have occasional distress. Every branch of industry
was so full of hands, that when a stagnation took place in
any particular one, the persons previously employed in it
could not be absorbed in other departments of labour, and
thus pauperism was created, The Hon. Member for
Newark (Mr. Sadler), told us, in one of his publications,
that the emigrations which took place under the auspices
and upon the principles of Government, had been attended
by death and misery to the unhappy persons who went out,
and that those who recommended the system were cruel
heartless beings, who, in the pride of philosophy, chose to
make these cold-blooded experimeots.--.( Hear, hear.) —lt
would be only fair in the Hon. Member to come forward
and say on what authority he had made such statements,—
(Cheers.)--Certaioly it was the peculiar care of the Emi-
gration Committee to 84ActiOn PO proceeding calculated to
produce gents dogribed by the Hon. Member. He
granted the Hon. Member to prothice Lia authority for at-
tackierg men as honourable as himself, and of as good in-
tentions, bleu whom, nevertheless, the Hon. Gentleman
had endeavoured to heap obloquy, for what he must say
bad never taken place. The Right Hon. Gentleman pro-
ceeded to refer to the reports of Colonel Cockburn end
Captain Basil Hall, as to the state of the amadian settlers,
for the purpose of showing the prosperity of those indivi-
duals, and the success with which emigration had been
carried into effect. The Hon. Member said, it would be
infinitely cheaper and better to do all this at home. If any
one could satisfy us that the bogs of Ireland might be re-
claimed, as the Hon. Member appeared to think they
might, he would show us an immense treasure within our
grasp in the very heart of the country. So far was lie
(Mr.
W. Horton) from believing that immense reclama-
tions might not be made in Ireland, that he believed the
contrary to be the fact, and thought government could
not do a wiser Act than to make the experiment.
There were millions of acres of waste lands, which
if they could be successfully cultivated, would add
materially to the resources of ' the country.—(Hear.)—
Th 6 Hon. Gent. supposed that the Emigration Committee
were foolish enough to imagine that Ireland could not pro-
duce oofficient food for the support of its population. The
Emigration Committee said no such thing. It was one
thing for a country to produce foot/ enough for its popu-
lation, and another for tire population to have money to
purchase it. Irish corn was naturally sold to the best
bidder, and thus found its way into the English market.
How could the pour among tire population of Ireland ob-
tain it, except it were provided fca- them by poor laws, or
the rate of wages were raised ? Yet if we introduced
the poor laws into Ireland' in its present state, and
under existing circumstances, they might prove an aggra-
vation of the earn; those laws would prevent many land,
lords from obtaining sixp,ince from their estates. He said
he thought the effect of them would be to encroach con-
siderably upon the rental of the Irish landlord. Other
parties, who at pent derived benefit from the landlords,
would suffer in consequence of their curtailed means, and
thus the measure would prove a transfer rather than an
abolition of pauperism. But if it were possible to settle
the rate of wages in a satisfactory rpanur by coleniptioo,