The Sun.
London, England, 1842-02-24 00:00:00

he-

TIM SUN, LONDON, THURSDAY MORNING, RIEBRUARY 24, 1842.

Right Hon. Sir R. Peel, agreed to at the Chamber of Com-
merce, in Liverpool, in October last;. and the memorialists
stated that the effects of our present system of Corn-laws. which
had been sufficiently observable for many years, had been again
i
strikingly exemplified during the last two years, n the course
of which we had imported large quantities of grain from the
Continent, while none had been, or could safely be, imported
from the United States. They stated the only remedy for the
evil would he the adoption of a fixed duty instead of a sliding-
scale. The Congress of the United States of America was
now in session, and were about to take into consideration the
tariff of that country.—( Hear, hear.) On the 38th of
June next the Compromise Act, passed under the super-
intendence of Mr. Clay several years since, would come
into operation, and under that British goods would
pay a maximum ad valorens duty of twenty per cent.
But now the manufacturers of America were urging Congress
to increase the duties on British articles, as Great Britain re-
fused to take the corn and flour of the United States, or, when
she did, it was on less favourable terms than she showed other
nations. The English manufacturers of woollen cloth and iron
articles were already in great jeopaidy as regarded the Ameri-
can market. At present the United States were receiving
woollen goods from Belgium and Saxony to a very great ex-
tent, and it depended upon the measures our Government would
adopt respecting the flour and corn of America, whether the
increasing markets of their vast territory should be closed
against us or not.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") He had
that day received a letter from a gentleman extensively engaged
is the trade of the United States which contained a useful
suggestion, worthy the attention of the Right Hon. Baronet.
It was, that charging the duties on the averages of six weeks,
should be confined to the ports of Continental Europe, within
the Straits of Gibraltar ; but that a period of six weeks should
be extended to ports without those Straits. The object of
those regulations was to allow America, and other distant
countries, to compete with the neighbouring countries of the
Continent. Whatever might be intended in that way, of this
ha was certain, that the effect of the plan would be to lower the
averages at least Cs. the quarter ; and there was as much fraud
committed for the purpose of lowering as of raising them.—
( Hear, hear.) As to the alarm which some gentlemen felt at
the idea of being dependent on foreign countries for the sup-
ply of a necessary article, he did not participate in it. The
Chancellor of the Exchequer stated on a ltte occasion very truly
that there had been fluctuations in the price of cotton. No
doubt of it ; and so there must be fluctuation in the price and
in the supply of every home or foreign product. But there had
lately arisen a competition between India. and America in this
product, and the consequence was that cotton was at this time
cheaper than it ever had been. But if cotton had been subject
'to a sliding scale instead of a moderate fixed duty, England
would never have become the country of cotton manufactures ;
but that branch of industry would have flourished in those
other soils to which the present Corn-laws were driving it.
Cotton manufactories would be established in other countries,
and the sliding scale would prevent its being established in this
country. Articles were more uniform in price when they were
not subject to protective duties, and the differences between the
prices of coffee and sugar in this country and on the Continent
proved that principle. At that moment he believed their pro-
tective duties were doubling the price in London and Liverpool.
Coffee was cheaper by eighty per cent. on the Continent than
in England, which was also an effect of the system of protec-
tion. Their tariff allowed them to import foreign coffee, but
they must first send it to the Cape of Good Hope and bring
it back again. Now these things were so absurd that he hoped
the Right Hon. Baronet would revise the system of import
duties altogether.—(Hear, hear.) He believed they were
now arrived at a. critical period. The embarrassments of men-
ehnnt s arid manufacturers had existed for three or four }ears,
and were increasing every day, and from the information he
could obtain he found there had been more capital lost in the last
years than during any former period. The suffering of the la-
bouring classes could scarcely be described, and it was most
creditable to them that they had borne them in the way they
had done. But the people now looked into the causes of these
things, and were satisfied that their commercial tariff and re-
strictive laws were at the root of the evil ; and the greatest and
most oppressive of those laws was that which excluded
corn and flour.—(Hear, hear.) He trusted that in a short
time something would be done for the relief of the suffering
people. He was altogether disappointed at the measure that
had been introduced by the Right Hon. Baronet, arid certainly
he looked forward with very little satisfaction to what was be-
fore them, as no improvement had taken place in trade since
the measure had been announced ; he thought they were in a
position of the most alarming kind, and he trusted something
would be done to remedy it.
Mr. lIASTIE said with a view to coming to a right decision
on the subject, he had examined into some details connected
with the large and important agricultural interest. One
of the best authors on the subject, Mr. M'Culloch,sin his
" Statistics of the British Empire," stated the whole rental of
the kingdom to be forty-six millions sterling, and the gross
value of the produce out of which that rental was to be paid to
be two hundred millions. He had then made an inquiry into
how much of this agricultural value was corn produce. The
Right Hon. Baronet, the Member for Dorchester, hxd told
the agriculturists there that the law proposed by the Go-
vernment would give them protection to the extent of ths. a
quarter; he denied that it would have any such effect.
The Right Hon. Baronet, the Member for Dorchester, stated
that the agricultural interest would have a protection of 14s.
per quarter. Now, the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of
her Majesty's Government stated the other night, that his
anxious wish was to reduce the duty on corn to 10s. per
quarter. No w, that would reduce the landlords' protection to
8 per cent., and he (Mr. Hastie) would maintain that if a free
trade in corn were opened, and he founded his opinion upon
a thorough examination of the Corn-laws of this country—he
felt convinced that if a free trade were opened in corn the
price would not fall ss. in the course of thirteen years. He
found that the average amount of wages of agricultural la-
bourers in the great counties and round the large towns was
Bs. This was proved before the Committee of the House in
1836. The wages of the labourer was the same as the rent
to the rich man. Now, Bs. a week was 20/. a
year ; and they had it from the Hon. Member for
Salop that, after a careful examination, the labourers in
his counts' consumed at the rate of one quarter of wheat per
head per annum. Now, if this Bill did what the Right Hon.
Baronet (Sir J. Graham) said it would, viz., give a protec-
tion of 14s. to the agriculturist, they had the labourer, who
had 201. a year, and who, perhaps, had a wife and two chil-
dren, who, altogether, would consume four quarters of wheat
per annum, the protection alone, at 143., amounting to
2/. 165., or near 14 per cent, on his income. Compare this
with the man who had 100,000/. a year. It would not bear
comparison. He (Mr. Hastie) should give his vote cordially
for the motion of the lion. Member for Wolverhampton, and
he (Mr. Hastie) only recommended Hon. Members opposite,
connected with the agricultural interest, to look into the sta-
tistics which he had laid before them.

Air. O'CONNELL said, he would not detain the House
many minutes.. He had expressed his sentiments so often on
this subject, that it would be superfluous for him to go into it at
any length then. He merely rose to say, that he should give
his vote most cordially for this motion, because he thought it
was a vote given on principle. There was no disputing the
fact, that great distress prevailed all over the British empire.
It was not confined to any particular locality, or to any parti-
cular trade or manufacture, but it was general and overwhelm..
ing ; the details were enough to sicken the firmest heart.
Misery, destitution, poverty, and starvation, met them in every
direction. There was not the least doubt of that. It could
not be said to be a party question. It was stated on one side
of the House, and re-echoed on the other.—( Hear. )
The only question was, which side of the House was
disposed to meet that distress with a remedy. Now
what did they propose to do? It was nothing to say the pre-
sent plan would relieve them; it would not relieve them. If
they said the repeal of the Corn-laws would not relieve them,
that wac an assertion very far from proof. —( Hear, hear. )
That assertion had been made for the last week or ten days, and
the result was, there was to be no relief. Now he thought
it was a gross misrepresentation to say, the, Corn.laws were
the sole cause. He thought it was one of the evils. There
was one thing certain, if they gave provisions to the people,
they would relieve them. Did it not follow of inevitable ne-
cessity, that they would give them some relief by giving them
provisions cheaper ?--(Cheers. ) What they wanted was food.
What they refused to give them was food. The question was
really this Should their Corn-laws raise the natural
prices of human food ? Would restrictive laws make food ?
fhe natural price of food was that which was the market
price of the produce all over the world, unfettered by any
taxes whatever ; that was the natural price of food.
Were they to have that natural price, or were they to have
an artificial price, that is the price that these laws produced?
Of course, during the years of deficient supply, by having that
supply from one country, instead of from all, was a great
loss
and evil. That was, there might be a deficient harvest in this
country, and there might be a deficient harvest in other coun-
tries, but that was no reason why 'there should be a deficient
harvest everywhere; and by this law they were prevented from
receiving the benefit of a good harvest in other countries of the
world, and thus they kept up the prices here notwithstanding
the bounty of Providence elsewhere. The distress of the coun-
try was increasing. Did their statistics, or did they not, prove
that the distresshad been increasing, year after year, and day
by day, for the last five or six years? At length it was
become indisputable, and they were actually boasting on the
other side of the House, of the patience with which the dis-
tressed people bore their sufferings. These people were
suffering deprivation, yet all relief was kept from them, for
their purpose was to make the landed interest mil at the ex-
pense of the poor. It was a rich and poor question.—( Hear,
hear.) The Hon. Member below him (Mr. Hattie) haddrawn a comparison between the rich man arid the poor one in
point of consumption. Nine-tenths of the income of the
poor man were laid out in provisions, while a hundredth or a
thousandth part of the income of the rich man was not taken
in provisions for his family. It was, therefore, a poor man's
pressure ; and they must recollect that the poor man's pres-
sure was much greater than the benefit to the rich man. Who
wee to decide this question? Would they leave it to the
Chartists, or to them, the Radicals? Would they be content
that the Chartists should call a Convention, and that that Con-
vention should decide whether there should be a tax on human
food? Certainly they would not ; because they had decided no
Convention should exist. But what right had they to a Con-
vention of the landed interest ?—( Hear, and cheers.) What
right had they to decide that question between the poor and the
operatives, who were not represented there ; but against whom
they (the landed interest) were opposed?—( Cheers.) He
meant no offence to Hon. Gentlemen opposite, because it was
human nature to be inclined to one's own interest.—( Laugh-
ter.) The Chartist operatives did the same; but he did com-
plain of their exercising the power they possessed to the
injury and oppression of the poor man, and for their own
exclusive benefit.—(Loud cheers.) The entire of the
working classes were interested in the abolition of this
law.—(Continued cheers.) He hid heard it said, that if
they abolished these laws, it would take away every advantage
of the agricultural labourer, and reduce him to want. He,
(Mr. O'Connell) utterly denied that the agricultural labourer's
interest had any interest in the prosperity of the landlords.
He denied that position ; they would, perhaps, refuse to be
convinced, but he had a document to show the fact, and that
was the Report of a Committee of that House, appointed to
inquire into the state of agriculturists (as we understood).
He had that Report which stated, that distress existed amongst
the agriculturists, but that the labourers were more com-
fortable than they had been for some time before. --( Hear.)
He remembered at that time, the Right Honourable Baronet
' opposite (Sir R. Peel) expressed hii satisfaction at the state of
these labourers. This showed that the agricultural labourers
was as much interested in cheap bread as the operatives,and at all
events that they were as much interested in dear bread as the
farmer or the landlord.--( Hear, hear.) Ireland indeed
was not mentioned in that Report, for he was sorry to say, the
distress there was always on the labourer, therefore he could not
introduce
himselfto this Ireland
a e
oaunnyt
ry
wh
ltherefore t must
? these
con-
fine
std
tistics, would they consult ' Well,the welfare of the people After
all, the question lay in a narrow compass. Would
they still insist upon continuing these taxes upon the
food of the poor consumer ?
Discuss it as they might, introduce(, ,Hear, hear,,, and cheers. )
as many excuses as they
pleased, all the fallacies brought forward
Corn-
laws had fallen, one after the other He
to sustain the Corn -
He did not think the
Hon. Baronet, the Member for
Wiltshire, would now assert
that dear corn produced high wages He (Mr. O'Connell)
rememberedthat the Hon. Baronet used
made high wages, and low in
to say that dear corn
corn made low wages.
He did not think that even he (Sir
Burdett) would make
use of these fallacies now. When '
i
these fallacies were ntm-
duced they failed one after the other. ear, hear.) The
for Y
people were screaming eread--the H
were screaming
for food—was it wise, Was it, after all,safe
to show a cold-blooded indifference ? He
would not to continue
an intentional cold-blooded indifference, but it
was
looskaeydit was
P°
' by these suffering people as such. Let them look to these laws.

Why, for heaven's sake, why not make the experiment ?
(Loud cheers.) For his own part he should not vote for the
motion if it had been for a gradual reduction, for he believed
the benefit of the resolution should he given now.—( Hear, and
cheers. ) He knew an advantage would be taken of his say-
ing so, and the authority would be rated much higher than it
deserved. He thought it was now. The great importance of
the motion was immediate relief, for if they opened the ports
to-morrow, speculation would have the certain effect of mak-
ing corn dear. As they had no other plan, why not adopt that
of the Hon. Member for Wolverhampton ? There was no other
scheme that could relieve the distress. But they had been re-
turned there to support the Corn-laws, and they had an over-
whelming majority. Those interested in the scheme were not
represented at all. When the Right Hon. Baronet was last in
power—he did not meat the last Administration, for then he
had office, but no power—(Hear, and laughter)—when he
was last in power, when his Administration terminated, what
was the state of the country? When it terminated, the night
was rendered terrible by blazing fires in various districts, and
the day by assaults upon the Magistrates. Members were
threa ened. Commissions of death were sitting, and many per-
sons sentenced to execution. The Ciiy itself was much dis-
tuib al, so that the Monarch, beloved as he was, did not dare
to visit the Chief Magistrate. This was the state of the ter •
initiation of the last Administration of the Right Hon. Baronet.
lie ( Mr. O'Connell) would implore of him not to expect an
euthanasia, or that everything would go on smoothly now it
these laws were continued; but he might expect an over% helm-
ing stream of indignation from the manufacturing population,
which would bear him down—that population driven to de-
spair by the sordid system of legislation fir the profit of a
clasl.—( Cheers. )
Col. CONOLLY said it surprised him much tohear all the vi-
tuperat ion which had been heaped upon Gentlemen on that side of
the House. Taking into consideration the fact of the home market
being worth all others in the universe, he was not prepared to
adopt a measure to ruin it altogether. He regretted to find
the home market bad been impaired, and he had heard
the exports of this conntry declining attempted to be accounted
for by the Hon. Member for Dumfrieashire. He (Mr. Ewart)
contendel that the condition of the country was bad. If
it was bad, why make it worse ? He (Col. Conolly) would
go as far as any man in compassion for suffering, but he would
not lend himself to a measure brought forward for the prevention
of this suffering by involving the whole of the agriculturists
in ruin. It was a measure calculated to render us dependent
on a foreign, and perhaps a hostile country-. (Hear, hear)—for
our maintenance. Of course, as he was an agriculturist, he
should be charged with being selfish, and he submitted, with
the Gentlemen on that side of the House. He was satisfied
the landed interest of the country stood high in the estimation
of the population. He fully agreed with the measure of the
Right Hon. Baronet, as it held out a great portion of relief,
and did everything that could safely be done, consistent with faith
to the public creditor. With respect to the vituperation heaped
upon them, he would say that he treated it with the utmost
contempt. He thought the principle adocated by Hon.
Gentlemen opposite was one of the wildest schemes from
first to last that could be submitted to the House.
He could not avoid inferring that there was a little political re-
sentment in the opposition given by Hon. Gentlemen en the
other side of the House. It was freely admitted that there
were advantages to be derived from the measure proposed by
the Hight Hon. Baronet, and however inflammable the haran-
gues made against it were, he (Colonel Conolly) saw those
advantages were admitted by the trading clases. He thought
also that it was a remarkable coincidence that there should be
a tumult at the meeting at Wolverhampton, at the very same
time when there was a debate in that House upon the subject
of the Corn-laws—when the House was engaged with the mo-
tion of its representative, who supported the total abolition of
those laws. He wished to keep faith with the public. He was
also anxious to sustain the agricultural population of the coun-
try, and to secure support to the manufacturing in-
terests. He had, therefore, voted against all the proposi-
tions for a number of years which had been
brought forward for the abolition of the Corn-laws since the
Hon. Member for Wolverhampton had a seat in that House.
He represented a large agricultural interest in Ireland, and
knowing that their interests chiefly depended upon agriculture
he was determined to resist to the utmost the proposed mea-
sure.—(Cheers.) It had been his good fortune to travel
through almost every part of Europe, and he could not think
it would be possible to trade with the people of the Continent, from
their inability to consume the manufactures of this country.
Could it be possible that Poland, at least in our
day, could consume the manufactures of this country?—
He deemed it utterly impossible. The people there had advanced
nearest of any country in the world to destitution. Why should
the people of this country then expect to dispose of their
manufactures there ? It was a delusion so audacious—the
argument was a fallacy so extreme, that it was a matter of
wonder how any person could be a party to it. In giving the
opposition he was then about to give to the motion of the Hon.
Member for Wolverhampton, he (Colonel Conolly) felt that
he was acting in maintenance of the best interests of the people
of this country. He was anxious for the welfare of every
human being in the State, and however erroneous some Hon.
Gentlemen might suppose his views were, they were at least
the result of a good deal of experience, and much consideration
upon the subject.—( Hear, hear.) He would say
he had taken an honest course in f•ustaining the
measure proposed by the Right Honourable Baronet
at the head of her Majesty's Government, because he was con-
vinced it administered to the wants and wishes, and main-
tained the best interests, of the country ; he would therefore
resist the proposition of the Hon. Member for Wolverhampton;
and he was happy to think that he (Col. Connolly) and those
who acted with him, consulted the real interests of the people ;
and that the Right Hon. Baronet in bringing forward his
measure, had not lost sight of that which would resider this
country independent of all the nations in the world. On the
entire he would appeal to the good iiense and intelligence of
Hon. Gentlemen, and he was quite sure the Hon. Member for
Wolverhampton would find himself in a most miserable
minority.—( Laughter and cheers.)
Mr. HAWES assured the House, that at this late period of
the debate, he would not interfere, but that he was anxious to
express the opinions which he entertained with reference to
the question. He was quite disposed to speak of every interest
connected with it with moderation, but he should at. once state
that it was his intention to support the measure of the Hon.
Member for Wolverhampton for the total and immediate re-
peal of the Corn-laws.—(Hear.) What was the state
of the present case? The amendment proposed by the
Noble Lord the Member for London had been rejected, and he
( Mr. Hawes) was now called upon by the Hon. Gent. the
Member for Wolverhampton to support, instead of the Noble
Lord's amendment, a measure for the entire abolition of those
laws. He did so, and he was prepared to prove clearly and dis-
tinctly, the grounds upon which he had taken that course.
Before he entered into the consideration of the plan proposed
by the Government, he wished to do ample justice
to the motive; which induced her Majesty's Ministers
to bring forward the proposed measure. He was prepared to
admit that the amendment of the present law proposed in that
measure would be of service to the country—( Cheers from the
Ministerial benches )—and that there would be made by the
present measure a larger trade in corn than hitherto existed.—
( Hear, hear.) Ile admitted fully that it was the intention of
the Government to amend the law, and that they would
succeed in doing so by the measures they proposed. He did
not think he could more strikingly illustrate that opinion than
by reading to the House the opinions of the gentlemen who are
engaged largely in the foreign corn trade. Three merehants
admitted that there would be a considerable increase in the
trade in foreign corn if the measure proposed by the Right
Hon. Baronet became a law ; but they apprehended that spe-
culation in the corn trade would remain uneradicated, and that
the measure would cause considerable derangement in the trade.
He begged the attention of the Hon. Members opposite to
that letter, it was addressed from Rostock, to ione of the
largest mercantile houses in the corn trade in London,
and might, in every respect, be relied upon as expressive
of the opinions of foreign merchants with respect to the
measure proposed by the Right Hon. Baronet; that letter stated
that trade was nearly suspended at Rostock in consequence of
the new Corn-law measure, and it was likely to be so until that
important question was settled, for, until 'then, the merhants
there could not expect any revival in their trade—( Loud cheers
from the Ministerial benches )—as people would not wish to in-
vest their capital in speculations in corn, lest this measure would
interfere with, or impede their interest. As far as they were
concerned they stated that they did not want any alteration at
all, for they had no doubt that, if foreign corn was introduced
into this country at a lower rate of duty than was at present
paid, it would withdraw a great deal of capital from them. The
letter then proceeded to state, that the merchants at Rostock
hoped that the Duke of Buckingham would succeed in his opposi-
tion. He inferred from that letter that they were opposed to a fixed
duty, bocause it would be levied upon the holders of stock, and
whilst he admitted that the present measure was an amend-
ment upon the present law, he should also say that the state-
ments made as well by the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel),
as by the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Kent, were
sources of considerable gratification. The Right Hon. Baronet
( Sir R. Peel) said he proposed this measure because he thought
it would be an improvement upon the present law and promote
the interest of the country, because he felt it was the best
measure he could propose ; and the Right Hon. Baronet and
the Hon. Baronet the Member for Wiltshire, admitted that
the e laws were the basis of agricultural prosperity, and that
extending the trade in corn would be a benefit to this
country.—( Hear, hear.) That was no small concession
—it was no small concession that the most sterling
of all Use opponents of this measure, should now come down to
the House, and to use their own expressions, support it from
sheer necessity.—( Hear, hear.) On the entire he considered
the protection now given to corn might be greatly regarded as
an amendment upon the present law, but yet it was not con-
sistent with the interests of the people.—(lronical eheers from
the Ministerial Benches.) The Hon. Member for Essex
cheered that observation, but he (Mr. Hawes) thought he
was entitled to say, when a law was brought in as an
assurance against famine, and when he found that the present
law was admitted t 3 be injurious in its operation, he was en-
titled to say, that there were very great and very material
changes necessary. He congsatulated himself 'and the House
upon the change of opinion entertained by the Right Hon.
Bart. the Member for Tamworth, and other Hon. Members
on the opposite side, since this measure was underthe considera-
tion of the House last year—(Hear, hear) —and he congratu-
lated the House now that they were fairly entitled to consider
that those opinions were entirely contradictory to the opinions
the Right Hon. Bart. and his friends then entertained upon
the subject.—(Cheers and counter cheers.) It was a subject of
oc
no nhgirsa
iuld aet inooft„haes
Ht he
ou
sRe i
hg ha
dt
el-lhoan. Bart.
ng
ed their
. and
he
ir opinions,Gentlementha that
they
might toemorrow or next day approximate to the principles of
free and unrestricted trade.—(Cheers from the Opposition. )
The only evils which the Right Hon. Gentleman assumed over
which we had a control in our hands, were those for which he
proposed no remedy; and in those which no one could control,
he said sonic alteration was desirable. The only security
against the fluctuations and disturbances in our mercantile re-
lations was to place the trade of this country on a broad basis,
so that when wheat was cheap in one quarter of the globe, it
might continue so in another; and inasmuch, as an example
of quoting from the reports of brokers, he (Mr. Hawes) might
perhaps be allowed to follow that example, though
1:e did not think it was a good one. That from
which he should quote would be as deserving of
credence as that of Messrs. Kingston and Lane. It was dated
the 31st of December, 1841, and was issued by the Associated
Brokers of Liverpool. They began by alluding to the great
commercial embarrassment, and then they said, that in an As-
sociation like theirs, composed of brokers of every shade of sen-
timent, much diversity of opinion must, of course, exist,
as to the source of this embarrassment. Some regarded the evils
as of a temporary nature, which would SOO3 disperse, and the
mercantile body be restored; but whilst all would gladly concur
in this hope, others there were who placed it to the effect of a
narrow policy, which, by attempting to enjoy trade without
reciprocating it, had at last converted our most valuable cue •
tourers into dangerous rivals ; this, they said,
thatwas an anomaly
wholly unworthy of an age whose pride it was to have aerie se
r.
lihaairsplken of the mild find many
awmueutrc:ho
drawingr fiotir
authorities
oefcountry.htoigah reelos
respectability
close.
tt
toyla
swe
umcahkminogrequo
opera-
tions andbut ihnefludeidncneootfwtilsthe
tCooarnnn-loaywtsheinutoeurmsesbmy
se-
vere ;
tation after quotation; nor would he refer to a report, though a
gacaqouhaiandtebdeenwmitlaideit4;se heof
100 M weavers, syho
treotrrt:enptorotnea, :lorieawin; udpocbctioymmtgh:e:rheaenti,d-
said, to trouble the House with extracts of that; the Right Hon.
hosieht4dh:avest:ipkesi the'
tiat:d thßt.e labouring
was, no doubt, aware that in describing the direful operations
ramoadste
Gentleman was, no doubt, werlloo
eCr.rown hoped that ucoersp.
st that he witilied to
classes,
ostts.hhe
the most
mi,Ct
hohoseert n
oan
Rightiwgeuns
at
g6oHepneo
Was4oti
rdßse44,ls7l;
On what principle
keep corn
tc otrhna
tbtehtew
Primes 4 B.
Ministerand
of
q tuba; t

might range from 545. to 58s. a quarter ? He should ha .e
imagined that the natural wish would have been that corn
might be as cheap as possible, and he ( sir. Hawes)
thought
that any attempt to regulate the price of corn within those
limits, would in fact be condemned by every one.-
Hear. ) It would be recollected that in 1810 the, price was
90s. it then fell to 705., by the late law it was 645., and now
the Right Hon. Gentleman ;came down 83. lower, and made
it 511 s. ; but he (Mr. Hawes) had no more faith in the decla-
ration that 565. would be a far remunerating price for the
British farmer, than in the former declaration that 90s. would
be a fair remunerating price. He had a right to ask the
Right Hon. Gentleman for seine better basis for this law than
that corn should range between 545. and 58s. a quarter. Mr.
Ellis, in his examination, thought that wheat should be
brought down till it was brought to 50s:, and Mr.
M'Dougall, a Scotchman, said, that the Scotch far-
mer could grow wheat, and grow it with a profit, at
a price of from Os. 6d. to 7s. a bushel ; and when asked if
the present rents in Scotland could be maintained with wheat
at that price, he said, " I am perfectly certain they could."
tic (Mr. Hawes) would now come to the opinions of agents
who were engaged in collecting the rents on large estates,
and who spoke from their own great experience; and from
their statements he (:1l;. Hawes) formed a strong confirma-
tion of what lie had before said, that the Right Fin. Gentle-
man had no right to assume that 565. was the price which would
afford a fair remunerating price to the farmer ; and if he could
riot prove, that he %vas bound to alter the scale in conformity
with the views of those who maintained that wheat can be grown
at a less rate. He (Mr. Hawes) remembered that the same
arguments as the Right Hon. Gentleman made use of now had
been brought before every agricultural committee. The same
principle was adopted in 1815, to hold the price at 90s. as
was now made use of to keep it at 565. Ile would now come
to the evidence of Mr. Tyson That gentleman was asked,
Looking at Mr. Coke's estate in Norfolk, do you think the
farmer could afford to pay any rent whatever with wheat at ss.
a bushel ?" The answer was, " Yes, I think he could, with a
good profit," He was then asked, "Do you think taking the
average of years, that Mr. Coke has a single tenant on his
estate that could afford to pay any rent with wheat at ss. a
bushel ?" The answer was " Yes." And the same question
being again put to him, he said, " I am not sufficiently ac.
quaintest with the soil to answer confidently ; but, looking at
the great improvements in agriculture, &c., I think the farmer
will grow his wheat cheaper." He was then asked what sys-
tem of Corn laws he would substitute instead of the existing
one ? He answered, " I should be for a fixed duty, begin-
ning with a high duty, and going down to a low one,
as low as five shillings." He was next asked if
he thought ss. per quarter as protection would be sufficient
to enable him to compete with the foreigner ; his answer was
" Yes." The next question " With wheat at 40s. a quarter,
do you think the farmer would be able to grow wheat to any
extent ?" His answer was " Yes, I do." He (Mr. Hawes)
thought that the evidence of a witness having so great expe-
rience, examined and cross-examined to such an extent, and
still adhering to his former answer, was entitled to the atten-
tion of the public.-( Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Hawes) should
be prepared to show that the effect of the Right Hon. Gentle-
man's measure would he in reality. to keep up wheat aboves6s.;
and he should next advert to the evidence of Mr. Beckworth,
the steward of the Duke of Bedford, who said that he could
grow wheat at 53. 6d a bushel. He (Mr. Hawes) did not
think then that the Right Hon. Baronet was justified in giving
to the House a measure which should attempt to regulate the
price of wheat between 545. and 585., and to place the mean
(565.) as a remunerating price for the farmer, in the face of
such evidence as he (Mr. Hawes) had adduced. The Hon.
Member for Dorsetshire had, he thought, unduly depre-
ciated the price of foreign corn. Taking Ale price
of wheat for a long series of years and at a duty
of 165., that would form a much higher protective
price to the farmer than 565. Corn could not be
obtained at Dantzie, for a long series of years, at a less price
than 40s. a quarter.-(Hear, hear.) That was very low in-
deed. The Right Hon. Gentleman, however, in order to
lower the prices, struck out certain places, and to lower the
prices of freight, in the same way struck out certain places,
which, he said, sent over very little corn, and were only nomi-
nally corn-growing countries. He (Mr. Hawes) would beg
leave to call tire Right Hon. Baronet's attention to what had
been said by Mr. Jacobs-certainly a man of great ability arid
integrity ; that ger.tleman said that wheat at Warsaw
could not be procured for less than '2Bs. ; add 20s. for
freight to London, and we hive it in London at 48s ; add the
duty, 165., and the price reaches 645. It was quite clear, then,
that all that wheat, extending over a series of many years,
could not be brought in to compete with the British farmers'
wheat at the price of 565. The Right Hon. Gentleman had,
therefore, in point of fact, protected the farmers to a much
greater extent than might at first sight appear. He would
now look at the returns made by the Consuls. They stated
the price at Warsaw to be 21s. ; transit 203., and duty 16s.
would make the price 60s. The whole of that corn, therefore,
could not be brought into competition with the British farmer.
The 20s. which he( Mr. Hawes) had assigned as the cost. for
transit from Warsaw to London was founded on the authority
of the old Consuls, Messrs. Wilson, M'Culloch, and Jacobs. If
a more extended inquiry into this question were desired they
would find papers before the House of Lords containing the
average price of wheat from the year 1770 to 1819. The price
of wheat at Dantzie then was 455. 4d., the freight 3s. 6d.,
which, with the duty of 165., made the price 655. ; again,
confirming the statement, that the whole growth of the
Polish and Prussian wheat would, under the operation
of this law be excluded from competition with British crown
wheat. No wonder, then, that the Right Hon. Gentleman's
plan lied excited universal discontent ; for though he fixed the
price of wheat at 565., it must, in point of fact, be much higher.
Rut in succeeding years, from 1823 to 1826, wheat was very
low. There was no demand in England, because the
harvests were good both at home and abroad. Taking the
ten years from 1821 to 1831, and taking also other years, it
would be found that the average price of wheat abroad
was 405., which, with the expenses of freightage and duty,
would make the price from 635. to 645. per quarter.
He did not mean to say that the Right Hon. Baronet did not
introduce his measure with the best intentions, but then he bad
no good foundation on which to rest his law. If he meant to
secure an average price of 565. for wheat to the !home grower,
he had no right to propose a measure that would give, in fact, a
much higher protection, as any Gentleman would find upon
strict examination. In fact, the new scale would be a very
heavy tax upon bread. The Right Hon. Baronet die Member
for Dorchester was opposed to a fixed duty, on the ground that
it was impossible to maintain it. Now, if the idea of this im-
possibility were provedto he groundless, would the Right Hon.
Gentleman consent to give up the odious arrangement of the
sliding scale, and become a convert to a fixed duty ? Why
under a fixed duty the higher the prices were, the more likely
the duty would be to be paid. Even under the new scale the
Government would get a good deal more money than the old
scale would afford, because the latter approximated to a fixed
duty ; and the higher the prices were of corn at home, the
more willing the consumer would be to get foreign supplies,
and to pay that duty. But was the object of the sliding scale
of maintain price ? If it were, look to the statement of the Right
Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government, who declared
that no Act of Parliament could keep prices steady. Yet in
the same breath he said that this was the essential intention of
his measure.-( Hear.) The fluctuations in the prices
of rye in Poland had been quoted to warn us
against relying upon the probable steadiness of price
in foreign wheat. 11ut the fluctuations in rye were easily ex-
lained. Rye was the main article of food of the people of
that country, who were without roads or capital ; so that if a
season were to fail in a single dishier, the price would be very
high, though in an adjoining province the stock might be
abundant ; but a gentleman largely connected with the trade
of Poland had observed to him that the fluctuations in rye in
that country should not at all affect England. He said the
prices of food in England ought to be more steady than any-
where else on the globe, because we had more facilities of
communication, more extended resources, and more capital
than any other country; and therefore we could always com-
mand regular and abundant supplies.-( Hear, hear.) On the
other hand the condition of Poland was exactly the
reverse, and no comparison could be made between the
two countries. The Right Honourable Gentleman re-
ferred to the period extending from the year 1765
to 1815, as a period of free trade in corn,
affected by no other influences than the ordinary ones of supply
and demand. But he would remind him that the French war
was one cause of extraordinary interference-indeed, to quote
the words of Mr. Tooke, there was no-period in our experience
of free trade in corn of sufficient duration to enable us to draw
just conclusions on the subject. It was said that an alteration
of from 3s. to ss. a quarter would be made in the returns of
the averagesug
emode. He (Mr. Hawes) admitted
that a change
amount of ss. would be effected by the
bt y u
the
ee f
ul newl
addition of those new towns which the Right Hon. Baronet
proposed to introduce. The statement read to the House the
other evening by the Vice. President of the Board of Trade, con.
firmed this estimate. Taking the large towns of London
Wakefield, De; by, Leeds, Newcastle, Liverpool, and Hull, it
would be seen that on the Ist of September, 1841, the ale-
rage price of wheat was 75s.,whilst in the remaining 143 towns
the average was 675. 3d., making a general average of 71s. 2d.
He knew it was said that a good deal of speculation prevailed
at that time, but he would refer to the average weekly returns
made to the Board of Trade, and ask could it be shown from
them-that speculation in thejaverages was then at work ? If
you take the country towns, anti exclude the large ones, you
would find a very considerable difference, as the large towns
furnished the higher averages, because of their
greater consumption of the best quality of flour, which
caused a greater quantity of wheat to be sold.
But the small towns consuming less would exhibit lower ave-
rages. The result must be then, that in consequence of the
addition of a large number of country towns by the Right
Hon. Baronet to those whichhadfurnished the returns hitherto,
the general averages would be lower, and the new Bill would
keep out foreign corn longer than would be the Case under the
present scale. He should not be unwilling to take into con-
sideration the alleged peculiar burdens upon land ; and if such
burdens did exist, he agreed with hie Hon. and Lesrned Friend
the Member for Bath, in thinking that one of two things
should be done-either that these burdens should be repealed,
or that a fixed duty upon corn should be imposed to the same
amount. That, however, was a subject for further consi-
deration. (The Hon. Gentleman was proceeding to say that
the landed aristocracy could not complain of the prohibition to
fnsuch marks of impa-
tience, Gentlemen
e House who had
grow tobacco and other commodities in this coQuunetsrtyi,unw,h”enfrohme
theun.pal:orsel
tet Ministerial
ewriitehdl,o,
he thought he might be permitted to observe that it
to that speech. -
was not Hon. Gentlemen on e
caused a prolongation of the debate.-( Bursts of laughter, and
sideug e interruptionsot ifotnhgust
dhu
ismasena. and cries
dicferev
s.eotsefhdoet h
cries of " Oh, oh," on the Ministerial benches.) He could
not forget that, notwithstanding the, moderate and able speech
by which his Hon. Friend, the Member for Wolverhampton,
had introduced his motion, no one gentleman connected with
he thought, a
( Hear, hear.) That was ne.t,so proper course to
pursue upon a question which deeplylnterested the people of
he thought
this country. Now, Honourable Gentletn"7,
• to
on his side had a perfect righttu
prolong t)recle-
the Government had condescended to reply
bate, if they thought fit do
,tintil they h d
of Ler
extracted from the members Majesty's a
some answer, and some notice of the sfeech.as met
Ala e in support
of the motion before the House. Wi ;
- co member of the Go-
vernment addressed himself to thp sobleet, he thought Hon.
Gentlemen on his side {test4 right to eonsider that as a
general
invitation to go An entil it teas conVertient
,1"1 theta to break the
silence they had observed. He wit! atiro that every member of
that House deeply deplored the d'st,ress which so generally pre-
an
veiled throughout tho uuntrY in his (Mr. Hawes's) opi-
nion, that distress was wholly andt solely attributable to the
baneful operation of that restrictive policy which
trade in articles of foreign produces ne watou our
ef e•enfessoed' however
imperfect might be the scheme lee Government,
it appeared tg him tit 4n improvement upon
itapp
system it was , to displace ; and he
al;c1 thciught that the whole was a great measure an imita-
tion of the pailiey of the late Ministry,
whom a factious °We
sition had removed from office._ A Government .4A entirely
adopting the policy of its eredeeessere_
s seeere hear, and
laughter from the Ministerial ht41144a-Ntlhom they had sup-
planted and obareeteib 'leer: pit, in his opinion, a Govern-
ment eosti4 maintain the confidence of this country.
Mr. MARK PHILIPS said, that though he shonld xsot
trespass long on the indulgence of the House, lipfc it iris duty
to state his opinions upon the, imP°rtaklt iiktescion then under
their consideration. He(31:410 Art forget that, when in moving
in a fornior Sesslow tl4 d
ad resstei,sie to the Throne, he
stated dgep distress in which country was involved,
that statement had been received with suspicion
and incredu-
lity. The existence of distress was tuny however, admitted on
all hands ; a.oil it was evident that it was their duty to devise,
if possible, an inireediate remedY for the evil. He remembered
that in June last, the Right Han. Daronet, the Member for

Taini.vorth, told the Noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) that, in his
opinion, the new Parliament should be reassembled at the
earliest possible moment for the purpose of taking into conside-
ration the important questions which then agitated the country.
Now, it appeared to him, (Mr. Mark Philips); that
the Right Hon. Baronet had forgotten his own lesson,
and that he had not seemed anxious to take the condition of
the country into his immediate consideration. And now that
the Right Hon. Gentleman's measure had been disclosed, lie
( Mr. M. Philips) was bound to say, that in his judgment it
would convey no relief for the distress of the country.
The measure had been received by the constituency whom
'he had the honour to represent, with feelings of deep de-
spondency and regret. Many of his supporters in Man-
chester had felt so much dissatisfaction that they had joined
pith those who saw no remedy for the evils of the country
but an extension of the suffrage to every individual who
had attained the age of twenty-one years. He did
not himself, he should say, join in that movement,
although he was aware that he might, by such a declaration,
place himself in an attitude of hostility to the views of a large
body of those whom he had the honour to represent. The
Right Hon. Baronet had told them that he did not consider
that the distress of the c iuntry had arisen in any material de-
gree out of the operation of the Corn-laws, and he also told
them that it was not in his power to offer any remedy for the
distress. He (Mr. M. Philips) did not therefore wonder at
the disappointment which many had expressed. It had been
said, that the working classes did not participate in the
opinions of the advocates for an immediate repeal of the
Corn•laws.--( Hear, hear.) Now he wished to observe,
that lie had presented a petition against the Corn-laws signed
by 68,800 of the town which he had the honour to represent;
and as the entire population of that town amounted to no
more than 040,000 inhabitants, lie thought that was a suffi •
eiently distinct intimation of the opinion of the male adult
population of the town of Manchester. When he first solicited
the suffrages of his present constituents ten years ago he had
stated to them Isis wish that a moderate fixed duty should be
imposed upon foreign corn, and that that duty should be
allowed gradually to decline until it altogether vanished. He
thought that such a measure would have been the best
that could have been proposed at the time. He was now
ready to support the motion of his Hon. Friend the Member
for Wolverhampton, and he felt that it was only a debt of jus-
tice to the millions of this country that the tax upon food should
be removed as soon as possible. He should say, with every
wsh fairly to consider the measure of the Right Hon. Baronet,
that it appeared to him most objectionable in its character,
and that it was calculated to perpetuate in a modified form all
the evils of the present system. He admittted that it was
an improvement upon that system, but he saw nothing in it
which would give steadiness to the trade in corn, or which
would take trade out of the hands of speculators and gamb-
lers. In the course of his own mercantile career he had never
thought it advisable to exchange the commodities in which he
dealt for foreign corn, and he had never imported a single cargo
of corn, so dangerous and uncertain did he consider the trade
under a sliding scale. He should now say that he would not
think it consistent with his own interest to import foreign corn
under the new scale which the Right Hon. Baronet proposed.
What would become of their trade if the United States
adopted the plan which they had adopted at home, and applied
a sliding scale to every article of manufacture imported from
this country ?—(Hear, hear.) Where were the merchants so
daring, or so speculative, as to run a risk of making shipments
of goods when they did not know what duty might be imposed
on the imported goods? or what merchants in this country
woild make over consignments while they were in doubt of the
duty to be imposed ?—( Hear, hear.) The people asked to
whom they were indebted for these laws, and they were
anxious to know who held the reins of office when the beauties
of the sliding scale were adopted, and they found that a landed
interest was then dominant.—(Hearahear.) He did not be-
lieve that they were aware of the evils that would result from
the system they adopted; and he was not sure that if the mer-
cantile interest had been as powerful at the time they would not
have to complain of similar evils in their commercial system.
But he considered the operation of the sliding scale was par-
tial ; and since the commencement of last Session he felt it to
be his duty to inquire into the condition of the poor where
he resided, and the population there were chiefly employed in
the occupation of hand-loom weaving ; but the extent and in-
tensity of the destitution of the people was beyond what he had
any conception of.—( Hear.) He found that they possessed
neither bedding, nor clothing, nor furniture ; at least nothing
that could be called by those names. They had now suffered
for three years and as the articles of their manufacture were
exported to the United States, they were still to endure misery
for a longer period, because they would not admit the corn
which those States had to give them, if they were only allowed
to take it.—( Hear. ) Though they worked as hard as possible,
they could not earn as much as would keep body and soul to-
gether, without any reference to clothing or furniture ; and they
attributed that state of things to the operation of the present sys-
tem. He believed if they were only allowed to import the
wheat which America had to give, this distress would be re-
lieved, and those who dragged on a miserable and wretched
existence, would be placed in a better condition.--( Hear. )
He was the more convinced of this, because, when a vessel
had arrived in Liverpool, from America, on the 28th of De-
cember, the cargo was exchanged for goods; and if such an
exchange was allowed to proceed on a more extended system,
what might they not expect?—(Hear, hear.) But he considered
it was very wrong to confine themselves to the single article of
wheat, for he believed if their trade was more free, a larger
exchange of every kind of agricultural produce would re-
sult.—( Hear, hear.) Hon. Gentlemen opposite were afraid
they should be flooded with corn in this country,
if a free importation were allowed ; but it should not
be assumed that foreign countries were able to raise corn to
the extent supposed. They should adopt the rotation system,
which prevailed in this country. In the north of Germany he
did not know of any land so fertile as to produce crops in
continuous succession, so that the fears of Hon. Gentlemen
seemed to be phantoms which had no existence. Hen. Gen-
tleman made another fatal mistake with regard to the opera-
tion of the sliding scale, when they said that wheat was only
admitted when a scarcity prevailed at home, and only in such
quantities as to make up for the deficiencies of the harvests in
this country. But it was notorious that the quantities im-
ported were not sufficient to feed the hungry of the country.—
( Hear, hear, hear.) There was one topic to which the
Right Hon. Baronet had not alluded, namely, the effect of the
sliding scale on the safety of the Bank of England. If, in
any one year, the scarcity of the count-y was such that they
must pay for the wheat imported in bullion instead of manu-
factures, the evils that must arise would be trivial in them-
selves compared with the evils that would follow such an ope-
ration.—( Hear, hear.) Under the present system everything
was haaardous and doubtful ; their capita' was diminished, and
the loss entailed on the community was frightful to contem-
plate.—( Hear, hear.) It was not easy to calculate those
losses, and he would not give any figures to prove them, because
these, being the result of individual calculations, might not be
much relied upon ; but he would say, and without any
wish to exaggerate, that the sliding system placed the people
in a position in which it was not right or safe that they should
continue.—( Hear, hear.) But he would produce a cacula-
tion made by the Mayor of Manchester, which would prove
the distress of the people. The Hon. Member then showed
by the statement that in the year 1836 the workman had a
snrplus, after all other necessary expenses, of 2/. 7s. 9d.
for food per week, whereas in 184 i 1 he was n an actual defi-
ciency of means to purchase food. In the former year he paid
36 per cent. of his income for food, and in the latter he paid
89 per cent.—( Hear, hear.) That was evidence of the en-
hancement of the price of food on the people. Much had been
said with respect to the exports of the country, but be ( Mr.
P.) would say now, what he so often said before, that the ex-
ports were a very fallacious test of the prosperity of the
country. Ile stated that for the last two years the increase of
the exports was to be considered as evidence of the distress of
the country, because, from want of means, immense quantities
of goods had been consigned to realise, by a system of advance,
the means, on the part of the manufacturers, of carrying on
manufactures and keeping their workmen employed.—( Hear. )
He had a circular in his hand, on the information contained in
which he should prefer the House to rest, rather than on any
statement of his own. It was issued in January last, by an
individual who differed from him (Mr. Philips) in politics—
a large commission agent in the town of Manchester. If the
House wished he would give the gentleman's name.—
(Cries of " Oh, oh," ani " No, No.") The do-
cument he alluded to mentioned the severe losses
arising to spinners and manufacturers from their present
position. Few were able to work their establishments so as
to have common interest on the capital invested ; others,
hoping that they might yet be able to obtain a sufficient re-
turn for their outlay, were contracting engagements which
must, in case of any disappointment to their expectations,
end in their ruin. It was proved, that in Man-
chester, and six other towns in its neighbourhood,
there were about sixty-three mills entirely at a
stand from bankruptcy and other causes. The circular went
on to state that the amount of exports was greater at this pe-
riod titan during any former years; that the increase in the
exports did not arise from any increased demand in the foreign
markets, but the manufacturers were compelled to force his
goods into the market at ruinously low prices to obtain the
means of carrying on their business. That was a
fair statement of the case of the manufacturers.
The Right Hon. Baronet, the Secretary of State for the Howie
Department, was pleased the other night to read to tin House
a statement of the number of mills and cotton factories, accord-
ing to the return of a factory inspector, which were built since
the year 18:39. There must have been some mistake in the
statement of the Right Hon. Baronet, namely, that 91 mills
were built since that year. That was impossible, Those mills
must have been built in 1836 and 1847, and the machinery
added in 1839, and brought into Ina operation in the same
year. The evils attendant on the banking system he (Mr.
Philips) would not attempt to deny; but before he pro_
seeded to observe on that subject, be would refer to the state..
ment which he had been just alluding to. He (Mr. Philips),
shortly after the late change in the MinistitT, applied to
the Right Honourable Baronet to haw a return from
the factory inspector of the W 4 number of fac-
tories in operation ; diviOkii those working full time,
from those workiri short time, and both from those
that were elesedi I'he Right Hon. Baronet refused to
grant }inn that return, on the ground that those mills N Melt
were in full operation at the time the return was made, might
be only working short time by the period the return would be
kid on the table of the House, and those partially employed
might have become in full Operation; and that, consequently,i no return could giW Information of the actual state of the trade, Now he (Mr, Philips) was as anxious to possess that document
as the Right lion. Baronet was averse to lay it txp,c,n the table
of the House. It appeared, however, thal its the niwet -one
mills built in that district, 16,000
pe:g..-aii had be.',l employed,
and ought not those to be as kaocla objects of
if they were employed as agricultural tioeirsoliciiude as
lia-bourers? But with
r hiespect to the. banking, tiptop" , he (Mr. Philips) had
mself deprecated it to.
the year 1835. lie spoke his
mind on the
lie to his constituents in the year 1836.
lad h°g". 'then the more alarmed as his constituents did
;:
not s"'in to have any apprehension on the matter. He con-
fessed, however, that at the present time his opinions had
undergoun 4 considerable modification with respect to over-
trading and over-speculation. He had ben informed by per-
sons engaged in trade, that in the years 18.35 and 1836, in
almost every transaction they had with other parties, every
account was paid them in Bank of England notes. They were not
on that account chargeable with over-speculation or of fostering
over-trading, because he should like to know the farmer who,
if offered Bank of England notes for wheat he brought into
the market, would think that, in accepting them, he was en-
couraging over-speculation ?—( Cries of " Divide, divide,"
" Order, order.") He must say, that although he thought
they were suffering now from diminished consumption, as they
had hitherto suffered from over-speculation, the people of this
country were only anxious to obtain an exchange of their own
productions for the articles which they needed ; they had no
desire to see any injury inflicted upon the landed interest—
they only wished to see that interest fairly promoted
and encouraged, but not by legislative protection,
Isuch as as-as now sought to be kept up. lie had
heard with great regret from the Honourable Member for
Bradford, some expressions, which he thought unworthy of
that Hon. Gentleman. The Hon. Gentleman had talked of
the "drum ecdesiastic" having been beaten in connection
with the Anti-Corn lawmovement.—( Hear from the Ministerial
benches.) That expression was used with reference to the
efforts of the dissenting clergy of this country; and he thought
the Hon. Gentleman had gone far to injure himself in the esti-
mation of a largo body ofipersons, whose good opinion he (Mr.
M. Phillips) considered it no slight honour to enjoy. He
hoped the Hon. Gentleman would at some future period acknow-
ledge that his expressions were hasty, and that they were not
justified by the circumstances, and that they had done no-
thing derogatory to their sacred character. He had also to
complain of the Hon. Member for Pontefract or. the same sub-
ject. The ROIL Member said the clergy of the Esta_

tl Llislied Church had not degraded themselves by
joining in the cry. Was it a degradation for a clergyman to
sympathise with his flock ?—( Hear, hear) Was it degrada-
tion to advocate what he believed would remove the distress
of the country ? He was far from thinking that any man
degraded himself by coming forward to assist the suffering and
starving people.—( Cries of Divide, divide," " Question,
question.") The manufacturers had come in for their share of
abuse ; now he slid not pretend to say that the manufacturers
were east in a different mould from others ; he did not mean to say
that they would not find sordid individuals amongst manufac-
turers as well as in every other class of society; but he would
ask, whether manufacturers were less distinguished for the
honour of their transactions; aye, and for the regularity of
those transactions, than any other portion of the community ?
He would yak, whether they were less regardful of the interests,
the welfare, and the comfort of the poorer classes, or whether
they supported institutions, established for their benefit,
with a liberal hand ?—( Hear, hear.) He would ask whe-
ther, among manufacturers, they ever met with indivi-
duals, who, as spendthrifts, destroyed their property,
and turned others adrift in consequence, and then called them-
s.-lees the farmers' friend? That, however, was not the proper
mode of arguing the question. Many unnecessary aspersions
had been cast upon the manufacturers. He stood there not to
justify that class, nor to prove that they were more than mor-
tal,, but to deny that those aspersions were borne out by the
facts.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") Far from wishing to
retaliate, he would be glad to see our country gentlemen carrying
out improvements on their estates, and he trusted that a better
understanding would yet exist between the two classes. On
behalf of the manufacturing class, he had to express his earnest
hope that the measure proposed by the Right Hon. Baronet
was not the only one which he would offer to the country. If
it were, it would be a bitter disappointment of their hopes.—
( Hear, hear. ) They looked to him for something more than
the mere shadow of a measure of relief. In giving his support
to the motion of his Honourable Friend, he was perfectly re-
gardless of its effect upon any property which he now possessed
or might hereafter possess. He was determined to take the
straight path of duty, by voting for that without which he
believed the energies of the country would never be developed.
He felt confident that the day was not far distant when the re-
peal of the Corn-laws must be granted. He earnestly enjoined
lion. Members to grant it from their own csnvictions, and not
to wait until it might be extracted from their fears.—(Cries of
" Oh, oh.") He did not use that expression as a threat ; but
he warned Honourable Members that if they did not le-
gislate in a straight direction, the result would be
an attack, not upon the agricultural interest alone, but upon
every interest; he would avert it from them as he would avert
it front himself. Believing that the feelings of the people were
being alienated from that House, he earnestly entreated them
to adopt wise principles of legislation.
Sir ROBERT PEEL rose and said—When, Sir, I took an
opportunity of submitting to the House the proposal of her
Majesty's Government upon the subject of the Corn-laws,
I felt it my duty to state that I thought that the
extent to which the existing Corn-laws had operated
in producing that distress, te existence of which was
not, denied, had been considerably exaggerated. I said that I
thought that there were ether causes in operation which might
be referred to as accounting, in a considerable degree, liar the
distress which unibrtunately existed. One of those causes I
stated to be, that there had been an undue stimulus to com-
mercial and manufacturing enterprise, in consequence of the
aid afforded by joint-stock banks and manufacturers acting
in concert. For that expression of opinion I have been
called to account by many Honourable Gentlemen who
have taken a part in t his debate. I have been told that
this doctrine of over-production, of undue speculation, is ri-
dieulous. It was with some satisfaction that I heard the
Hon. Gentleman, whose attention has been specially directed
to such matters, and who represents the town of Manchester,
the great seat of the cotton manufacture, confirming, to the
fullest extent, the statement which I made, and admitting that
to that system of joint-stock banks, to that unnecessary and un-
natural stimulus to manufacturing speculation, a considerable
portion of the present distress was attributable. ( Hear,
hear.) Sir, the Honourable Gentleman naturally enough
I vindicates his own constituents. Ido not attach any blame to
them : that is not the question. It may be that there was an
over• issue of Bank of England notes; but that question I will
not discuss. All I say is, that there is sufficient to justify me
in not partaking the despair and despondence which prevail,
when I have pointed out one cause of distress, which by
timely precaution might have been avoided, and when I am
confirmed in that by the experience and practical
knowledge of the Honourable Member. I said also that I
thought the diminution of our exports to the United States,
might be accounted for by the disarrangement of the monetary
system of that country. Here also I have had the Honour-
able .Member to confirm my view. He most expressly says
that, however our own monetary system may have been de-
ranged, either the same or other causes have operated with
greater force in the United States, and that the derangement
of the market of the United States, must necessarily have
operated injuriously to our manufactures.—( Hear, hear.)
Sir, if I may estimate the extent, by the amount
of the diminution of exports, it must be considerable.
1 find, Sir, that in the year 1839 the declared value of our ex-
ports to the United States remember, not the official
value, but the declared value of the chief articles
. .

of British manufactures, woollens, cottons, silks, V hard-
ware, cutlery, earthenware, &c., amounted to 7,585,000/. ;
in 1840 the declared value amounted to 8,839,000/.,

while in 1841, the declared value of our exports
to the United States of America had fallen from 8,839,0001.,
which it had been the preceding year, to 5,200,000/.—( Hear,
hear.) I know that it may be said that the diminished exports
to America was more than compensated by the in-
crease of our exports to other parts of the world.
But, Sir, is it not evident, that however much our exports
may have increased in other parts of the world, the houses en-
gaged in the American trade must have suffered extreme de-
' pression, that they must have experienced great difficulties, and
some of them have been plunged into extreme distress,
in consequence of the sudden interruption in their commercial
dealings with their usual customers ?—( Hear, hear.) I said
that the disturbance of our amicable relations with China, by
diminishing our exports to that country, I considered to be
another cause of the existing distress. The lion. Gentleman
the Member for Paisley differs with me on that point,
and his is a high authority on such a subject. The
lion. Gentleman, it I understood him right, stated the
other evening, that the total amount of our exports to China
had increased. I find from the official returns that the amount
of our direct exports to China have undergone a diminution
within the last two years, and possibly the diminution
may have led me to overstate the amount, and to attribute
more to that cause than can be fairly attributed to it in
producing the distress under which we are at present labour-
ing. With respect to our present exports to China, the dimi-
nution in them is considerable. In 1839 the direct exports to
China amounted to 1,204,852/. ; in 1840 they had fallen to
851,000/, and in 1841 they had fallen to 524,000/. At the
same time the Hon. Gentleman says that, although there has
been a diminution of our direct exports to China, there has
been an increase in our iip:irect exports more than commensu-
rate to that diminution. I think the Hon. Gentlemen men-
tioned Singapore.
Mr. HASTIE—And the East Indies.

Sir It. PEEL.—As to the East Indies, I am not prepared
to state the amount; but I will take the amount of the aggre-
gate exports to Singapore and China together. In 1839 the
amount of our exports to Singapore and China together amounted
to 1,582,000/. ; in 1841 it had diminished to 1,211,000/.,

that is taking the aggregate of Singapore and China together, so
that not only does there appear to have been a falling off in the
amount of our direct exports to China, but in our exports to
China and Singapore taken together, or, I may have overstated
the amount of that diminut ion ; but I think that the Hon. Gentle-
men can be hardly correct in saying, that in 1840 and 1841,
there had been an increase in the amount of those exports. How-
ever, the Honourable Gentleman from his situation, is cer-
tainly a high author ity on the point, and I certainly am in-
clined to pay great deference to his opinion on the
subject.—( ear, hear.) I protest at the same. time—
a doctrine which I know to be very unpalatable in several
quarters, but a doctrine which I felt it to be my imperious
duty explicitly to state—that the prejudicial effect of the Corn-
laws on manufactures in producing the present distress, %sad
been considerably overated. Sir, lam bound to •
that
'imsidered as
finding Hon. Gentlemen who were entitled to be e
authorities on that subject, I have reconsiderel'.. that opinion,
I should be un-
but I can see no reason for altering it. Si:f,
ghtest degree, to
principled and unwise if I attempted, in t'Lie
sii
underrate the importance of manufactu7. es. I believe the prosperity
tiof them anufacturing interest
sia 'essential to the well-being of
e country.—(Loud cheers, ) When I occupied a place on
the other side of the House I often stated an opinion, which I
know some of my friends heard with alarm, as to
the importance
of manufactures to agricultural prosperity.—( Cheers.) I have
always maintained that opinion, and it cannot be said that I
have now newly taken it up as a Minister of the Crown.
I have. always maintained, and have never hesitated to avow,
my opirtima that the Prosperity of manufactures was of more
it-01)401We to kgrietilt'lre than any system of Corn-laws—
( Loud cheers)7-87:0.' in proposing an alteration in the Corn-
laws, as a
- .iiinister of the Crown, I am not now stating that
'Orlin ;or the first time.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) On
1.-,,Oking over the documents which have been laid on the
table of the House in relation to this subject, I feel convinced that
I am right in stating that the prejudicial operation of the Corn-
laws on our cotton manufacture has been greatly overrated.
The effect of the Corn-laws in raising the price of food in this
country has been stated to be that of disabling us from com-
peting with foreign coutitries. Formerly the Hon. Gentleman,
who may be considered as the great champion of this question,
used to say the exports of our manufactured goods had conti-
nually diminished year after year, in consequence of the greater
cheapness of food in countries competing with us, and they
would continue to diminish, unless we were enabled to pro-
cure food as cheaply as our rivals—( Hear.) Such was
the statement made by the Hon. Gentlemen in former times,
but now the Hon. Gentlemen discovers that during the last
two years our exports had increased—( Hear, hear)—aid now
the can. Gentleman turns round and says, sly opinions have
uudergone a change, and I consider the increased exports of
our cotton manufacture as a proof of its failure.
Mr. M. PHILIPS—The increase has only been within
the last two years.
Sir 11. PEEL—Yee, but if you have greatly increased
exports, although the profits of the manufacturer may have
been diminished—

Mr. M. PHILI PS—There have been no profits at all.
Sir R. PEEL—Still what becomes of the danger of foreign
competition? You now manufacture so cheap, that Iff the
increa.so of your manufacturing exports be not a test of manu-
facturing prosperity, but have been accompanied by a decrease
in your profits, yet still the price of food in this country has
not prevented you from overpowering your manufacturing
competitors. Notwithstanding the price of corn in this country,
you have been enabled to undersell all your foreign rivals.—
(Loud cries of " Ne, no.") You have been enabled to increase
your exports.—( Tory cheers.) I have been a Member of this
House for thirty years, and it certainly is a new
doctrine to hear that an increase of exports has
done no good to any one.—( Cheers and laughter. )
I will not take the case only of the old mills. I know it may
be said that they may have been worked without profit, because
it is better to use machinery than to keep it idle. But how
can you -account for the building of new mills, if the profits of
manufacturers be so materially lessened? Since 1839 ninety
new mills have been built, not in the whole kingdom, but only
in one particular district, which ca.ne under the notice of Mr.
Horner within the last two years. I say they began building these
mills before the commencement of that period; lino profit is made
and they are worked at a loss, it would surely be better that
the mills should remain unoccupied than to begin working them
with a certainty of incurring loss. (The Right Hon.
Baronet then read an extract from Mr. Horner's Report,
from which it appeared that in the district under
his (Mr. Horner's) inspection there had been built since the
Ist of January, 1839, 91 new mills, employing a power equal to
3,350 horses.) But then it is remarked, true the exports have
increased, but the reason is the home consumption has fallen off
on account of the dearness of provisions, that the demand at
home for manufactured goods having decreased, it is naces,,ary
to dispose of the goods in some manner, and therefore they
have been sent abroad. It is impossible to dispute the existence
of deep distress in the manufacturing districts—a distress from
which the manufacturing interests have suffered most severely.
I believe I am right in saying, that, of all trades, the cotton
manufacture suffers the greatest ; that the greatest instances of
distress that have prevailed have been found existing in those
districts in which cotton is the chief manufacture.---( Hear. )
Now, wishing to justify the position I have taken, that the
operation of the Corn-laws—their
Iprejudicial operation—
has been unduly exaggerated, was obliged, from
a sense of duty to make the statement I did, that I could not
entertain any confident expectation that in a change in the
Corn-laws would be found any sudden, any immediate, or any ,
extensive relief for that distress. The exports have been in-