The Sun.
London, England, 1818-03-10 00:00:00

all applicable to the present case, "with the excep-
tion of the Act of Indemnity passed in 1801.
Even that did not justify the Bill now before the

Iluitse.

It was it-upos;iiile that in every case of

the ninety-six persons ‘Ybo had bceu lake!) up,
the.clisclosure -of the evidence on which the 81.-

rest had taken place could be seriously inconve-
nient. It (here were but one ill which the cvi-

deuce colt Id be produced wit bont inconvenience

to the service of the State, the House would not

' do justice if it prechrled that
.In!tividual from
set-king redress by passing, the present Bill. At
all events an inquiry ought to take place before a
Bill of lndemnily passed that was materially dif-
ferent from any one that had* ever beftire passed
into a law.
•
Mr. FREEMANTLE said, that ti) maintain his own
consistency and the consistency of Pat liament, he
felt it his duty to support the, Bill before the
House. The arguments now adduced were ap-
plicable to' the question before the House last
year, when The Suspension Act was in debate,
and not to the present question, for they all re-
ferred to the circumstances of the Country last
year, and whether or no they were such as to
render necessary the measures last year adopted.
All this had nothing to dO with the immediate
question. His own opinions relative to the state'
of the country d►tr•ing the last year were the same
now as they had been then. lie always thought
that there was serious cause for apprehension
in the state of the country last year. Nor
was he the only Member piton his side of the
House (I he- Oppnsit too) who t bong lit there
was (hanger; Amongst others, a character whom
he had alti•ays held in the highest veneration,
namely, the late Mr. Ponsonhy, felt the extent of
the danger. That high character declared ht his,
place, t hat before he had gone through the evidence
laid before the Secret Committee, he did not believe
that there Was real cause for apprehension; but that,
having ex"-'mined that evidence, he was convinced
of time danger, and said, that if lie had been in
the Cabinet, be would have adopted the same ge-
neral measures that had been adopted by Govern-
ment, alt bough, ern some of the measures adopted,
his (Mr. Ponsonby's) opinion was different. On
what argument, then, was this Bill opposed ! The
only real gronod, if indeed it existed, was, that
the powe;s confided to time Government had been
abused. And on what was this charge founded %
On vatements contained in Petitions, every one
of which had been disproved. lie could not but
look upon this Bill. as. a part of the great system
on which Parliament had acted with such benefit
to the country, as a duty which Parliament owed
to those who had execute& the powers with which
they had been entrusted. 1, was therefore in

pertect consistency with all his former opinions,
hut he should give his vote for this
hear !)

Mr. BRAND

Lord NUGENT agreed that the question of In-
demnity ought to he considered as perfectly dis-
tioct from the circumstances of the country
last year; and he thought that there was a
peculiar dwy on those who voted for all the
measures last year adopted, to insist upon a.
full inquiry into the conduct of the Alinisters in
the exercise of the powers committed to them.
The opinions of the late Mr. Ponsonby had
been alluded to ; but he begged the House
to recollect, that his lamented friend had voted
against the Suspension of the Habeas Corpus,
and had expressly stated that he serily bell, ved
that the existing laws were adeqUate for the pre-
servation of the public safety. If Mr. Ponsonby
Were still alive, no doubt he would on this occa-
sion have preserved his consistency, not after the
manner of the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Free-
mantle), but ,by voting against such a measure
as. the present Bill. Under what circumstances
was this Bill brought torward ? Was it not when
the table of the House was crowded with peti-
tions, setting forth accounts of unheard-of cru-
elties exercised against the petitioners in the
mode acid time of their imprisonment. It was said,
indeed, Altar the petitioners were persons of bad
character. But admitting that these, persons were
guilty of the crimes for which they were eorn7
mitred, then how were Ministers to be justified
for discharging such dangerous persons from cus-
tody walkout trial ? This case, and this
was a sufficient reason why Ministers should not
be sheltered by a Bill of Indemnity. One of the
great grounds on which this Bill was founded,
was the Report of the Secret Committee of this
Session, which he was justified in considering as
the accredited manifesto of Ministers. But by
whoin,was that Report made ? Was it not by the
Committee nominated and chosen by themsetves ;
and what was it that the Committee examined
It was evidence not given upon oath ; not given
viva voce, but selected and chosen by the sery
Ministers whose conduct was in question. Too
flinch had, perhaps, been said'of the sources from
which Government had derived their information,
and of those horrid Miscreants who had been
found in their employment. • But he could not
refrain Iron' observing' that.a Right Hon. Gentle-
man (Mr. B. Bathurst) had promised to make
some statement relative to the connexion of Oliver
with the Derby conspirators, which he said would
at once decide the opinion of the House ou that
subject. But the Right Hon. Gentleman had not I

yet made any such statement. lie had indeed

said with respect to the dying decl►+ration of
Torner, in which he accused Oliver, that some
disaffected peisons out of gaol had found means
otcominunicating with Turner during hiS confine-
went, and instigated him to use the expressions
alluded to. Rut, .for his own part, he could not
believe that this was possible, o 1 that Derby
Gaol, or any other Gaol in the kingdom, was so
badly guarded as to render it possible that this
could have been the case. It, as a juryman, he
was to judge Ministers from the Report of the
Secret Committee of this year, he would declare
before God anti his conscience that he thought
them

There was then a loud call for the question,
and the House divided—
Ayes
Noes •

190

Majority fur the Bill —l26
The ATTORNRY-GENTERAL then moved that the
Bill be reid a second time, and named to-morrow

as the day.
lit.tounTlAM Sala, that surely it could not he
intended to have this Bill pressed to'a second
reacting to• mdrrow, wive') there was'so much other

business of importance that was likely tO occupy
the House to a late hour.' This was a very extra-
ordinary course, not less so than hit in the whole

of the debate this night there had been a perfect
silence on the other side of the house; nut one
Member on the Treasury had taken any part in the
debate. It seemed that against all the arguments
so forcibly nrged in opposition to this Bill, the
only answer which Ministers intended to. make

was by their majority. This looked very Inticb
like treating- the !loose with contempt ; and
at this time, when in ten days they VV6 e all to be
sent to the countty—w nen, indeed, it was inder.•
st,od that a dissohnion of Pat liament itselt was to
take place---it was an exp,o-inent which might be,
tried safely perhaps for Ministers as lo its imme•
diate result, but it anght be more difficult to an-
swer for .its .remoter coustom aces It might be
vet y well to greet these majorities the cheer-
iug which had just taken place, which meant as
flinch as saying, " we knew we were right." Not
right upon Oat. merits of the case, but in reckon-
ing npoti a large majority in their favour. The
lion. Aide' man (Sir W. Curtis) hie SaaY w-as Melt
amused, and it was impossible to look at the good
humoured face •of the worthy Alderman without
catching
some portion of what it so strongly ex--
pressed; he must acknowledge that he enjoyed the
Hon.,Alderman's cheering as much as he seemed
to do himself, because he verily believed that
the Honourable Alderman Noted wilt the majo-
rity, and cheered,the majority, without beitig able
to give one single reason fur his vote or his chee?.
Ule must admit that a majority was an unanswer-
able argumeut. sisters, triumphing in their
majority, might be careless how fae-ir. concerned
the House or the Country that the Bill should be
hurried through its various stages. •Tht-y thought
themselves sure of their nombers. That was-the
argument on which they rested. No matter how
notch it might be the duty of Members to deliver
their opinions and reasons upon such a Question ;
they seemed resolved that nothing should be had
trout. them butt votes: But if they persevered in
fixing the second reading for to-morrow, when it
must come on at a very late hour, from
.the Ares- ,
sure of other most important business (for there
were several notices of motions of great interest
which stood for to-morrow, and it was a day out
which notices preceded orders), if they were re-
solved to persevere, it only remained for those
who had to combat against a majority, and not
against arguments, to avail themselves of the pro-
tection of the forms of the House, devised by
the wisdom of our ancestors, so wisely, as it now
appeared, to guard against such an abuse and con-
tempt of the ordinary course of proceeding in
measures of such interest and importauce; he
therefore gave notice, that if to-morrows was the
day appointed, to these forms he would resort,-
and he trusted he would be supported in availing
himself of them in so flagrant a.case.
L.crd CASTLEREAGH sand, the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman seetned to think that his M+ siy's, Mi-
nisters, by not having spoken in the course of this -
debate, sheaved a contempt for the House, and
neglected a duty which was expected trout them.
lint if the Hon. Geutlenrajt himself had exerted
himself on this occasion, op which he se-eined
to think it "to much the duty of every Member to
bring forward such arguments as occurred to hint,
for ar against the measitre, they might probably
have produced the effect of calling up some of the
Members on his side of the House, and of pro-
longing the debate. But_why did not the Hon.
Gentleman himself take a part in the debate ?
If he blamed others for not arguing in favour of
the Bill, why did not he 'himself argue against
it ? Instead of that, however, he had remain-
ed in his hiding place till the debate was over—
(Laughter.)Ht •was understood, indeed, that the
Holt. and Learned Gentleman was kept hack on
this and recent occasions by election busitress—
(Hear, hear !)—with, which, indeed, the Hon.
Gentleman mu the present occasion seemed 10 be
more conversant than any other ; for he
hail told the House what was as new probably to

them as it Was to him (Lord C.), that Pa'rliament
was to be dissolvedin a fortnight—(blear, hear !)
But, indeed, he never saw powder more wasted
than that which the Hon. and Learne,i Gentleman
fired off on this occasion—(Laughter.)—As for
the menaces of the Honourable 'to& Learned Gen-
tleman, he hoped his Honourable and Learned
Friend, (the Attinney-Gencral) would be not one
whit deterred by this newly-awakened of of
the Hon. and' Learned Gentleman opposite, but
would continue to fix the second reading for to.

sorrow, according to the established

it were found that the other husineis of the House
should occupy theta to-morrow till too Fate an
hour, then the appeal of the Hon. and Leaned
Gentleman would have come in its proper place.—
(Hear, hear !)

Mr. BROUGHAM rime, amid cries of " Spoke!
spoke !"—He had hcen so very personally alluded
to by the Noble Lord, that he really thOnght
himself entitled Jo the indulgence of the House to
say, that as :he Noble Lord seemed to accuse him
of a dereliction of his duty by his silence on this
and other recent occasions, be felt it necessary to
say, that he had been sileut only because he felt
that any thing which he could say would be so-
perfluous from what he heard said by Members
on the other side of the House.

Sir S. 1105111.1. y said that he wifidd move, aq an
amendoirtit, that the. second reading be fixed for

Wednesday instc-ad of to-morrow.—Certainly the
courSe.of,the debate to•night had been very ex-
traordinary, fur the speakers had been all of one
side of the House. NVII n the reasons urged in
favorer of a measure had been answered, and
sa-
tistactorily answered, it certainly was usual that
those on the other side. should say something
in reply. The Noble Lord, indeed, said that
the silence on the Ministerial Benches was
caused by the silence at his Ho:mutable anti

Learned Friend.(Mr.Bronghain). it seemed th‘at
his Hon. and Learned Ftiend advanced with
the force of his great talents, leis Majesiy's Mi-
nisters were not to say a word ; Si) that his Hort.
_

and Learned Friend had only to keep in Ins place,
and refrain front speaking, and hencetorth Mini-
sters would be dumb. Wl►ar object was there in
thus bullying the present Bill, since it would have
a retrospective effect, and since• what passed to-
night sufficiently she wed that Ministers were sure
it would pass it
. Mr. ;CANNING said the Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman Stated wine rules as to the forms of debate
Which were true in themselves, bot nit in their

app.lieation to the present case. It was trite that
to-night all the speaking had been upon the miler

side 'ot the Ifoi-tse, bnt certainly not all on. the

• j •
same side of the question.—(Hear, bear !)—The

reason why there was a want of occupation on
this side the louse was that the work had
been taken out of their hands.—(licar, hear I)

• The tinnnnrAble Anti Learned Gentleman indeed
accrued not 'to be aware of the length of the de-
b ice which was jost concluded. That could
not he railed a very short debate in which there
had hey n twelve different speakers ;•aud yet such
had been the debate 7if this night It could nor
be called a very evraortlinary -debate in which
there were six speakets on one side of tire goes-
. tion and six on the other side ; and yet such 'had
been the debate of this night. When analecusa-
Ilan -was brought against one party for having al-
10,ved' the debate to drop, the accusation could
not he sustained if the last speech in the debate
was One in favour of that sire of the question,,
sopported by the party accuFted; and yet such load
hcen 'he case in the debate of this night.--(Hear,
hear !) The debate had been opened by his lion.
and Learned Friend (the Attorney-• General) with
a very able speech, the argurneots of which re-
mained ye't unshaken ; and with that speech he
would be willing to rest their part of the question.
He was followed by the Hon. Meniber for Dur-
ham, and the, Member for Northumberland, who
both opposed the Bill. They were followed-by the
Honourable Member for Bristol, and. an Hon.
Memberarriposite (Mr. Stianhope)', both of whom
spoke aaainst -the arguments of the two Hon.
Members who preceded them. Then came the
Members for Cambridge and Hertfordshire, who
hoth opposed the Bill', and they were followed by
an Holt Member front the cross henches (Mr.
Marryatt), who was in favour of the Bill. A No-
ble Lord opposite (Lord Althotpt) then spoke
against the Bill ; and next came the Hum. 'Mem-
ber (Mr. Freetnantle), whose speedo contained
the best and strongest arguments in favour of the
; to whose speech again a Noble Lord
(Nugent)' did his hest to teply ; and last of
all came the speech of an Hottourahle .Member
opposite, in support of the Bill, front a quar-
ter whence least of all was such support expected.
This was the history of the debate in w hien his
Majesty's Ministers were blunted for- not haVing
takeu, a part. Ile would be glad to knOw in what
pail of the debate they could have with propriety
come-in ? But, indeed,.be would observe, that a
debate in which the conduct of Ministers them-
selves was in question, and in which they were
personally implicated, was Mtt that in which they
should he too ready to take a part —(Hear, treat !)
In 'addition to the history of the debate, which
was itself a sufficient reply to the two Hon. and
Learned Gentlemen, he must remind the House,
with regard to their threat about forms, that the
course of debating a Bill on the first reading,
avhirh had been done to-night, was a very tin-
itsnarconrse. The usoal course woold have been
to have had the first reading on the same night
that the Bill .was brought in from. the Lords ;-and
the second readitig on this night. That course
was interrupted by a request from an Hon. Mem;
her opposite, out of courtesy to whom his Hon. and
Learned Friend (the Attorney-General) had coo-
seated to postpone the first reading till this night ;
and now in return for this, the Hon. Gentle-
man Opposite came forward with his threats.—
His Noble Friend (Lord Castlereagh) seemed to
blot that if the other business which stood tor to-
morrow should occupy the House to a late hour,
the second reading would not. be presser!. Now
-after the conduct of the Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman opposite, he for one hoped that- no post-
ponement would take place to-mot row on any tic-
tonnt whatever, and that the House would, by
going through the second readiogathen testify its
sense of thia interruption,.so uneourteous and nu-
provodried.--(Hear, hear !)
Sir Junta NEWPORT said, that for one he hoped.
if the. second reading was persevered in to-mor-
row, the threat of usiag the forms of the Rouse
to protect the minority, and the people of Eng-
Itonl against a majority (a means of protection
which; had once already been successfully resorted
to) would be put in force. The right Hon: Gen-
tleanan (Mr. C.) triumphed. very much in his
calculation of the course of the debate this night,
but had omitted the Members' for Hertford and
Northumberland, who both • spoke against the
Canaing here rose to correct the Hon.
Baronet.)—He wonld not allow the Right Hon.
" Gentleman to interrupt hint ; any thing he had to
say he might say when he (Sir J N ) was "(lone.
He would not put no with such iatetruptions from
the Right !ion. Gentleman, or any other person,
however great his arrogance, when supported by
a majority. It was not quite correct that the
fiat reading had been postponed, from Fritlay, to
oblige the MeMber for Darham (Mr. Lamhton) ;
besides, even if it were so, that was a mere per-
sonal aceommodation to a single Member granted
on his particular request, and was what the House
had no lung to do with.
Mr. CANNING said, he only rose during the
Hon Baronet's speech, to caution him against
the mis-statement which he was making, and as-as
sorry it was not taken. in good part. The Hon.
Baronet said that he,(Mr. C.) had omitted the
Dlembers for Northumberland and HertfordShire
among those who spoke against the Bill. With.
out any apology he roust inform the Hon. Bart).
net lie did no! omit these Honourable Members
(Hear, hear !)
After a few words in how tone from the AT.
TOISNEY-GENERALi• Sir S. ROMILLY said he would
withdraw his amendment, on the understanding,
t ha! if the second reading could not come on to.
morrow before a. late hour, it would be post-

po►te(L
The second 'reading ' was then fixed for to-
porrow,

A new writ was ordered for the Borough of
Ysvitumih, in Haws, in the room f& the Lou)
AnvocATE Of .SCOTLAND, who has.accepted the
Chiltern Hundreds'.
The whet Ordeis of the Day were .disposed of,
an d the 1.-loaqe adio-urned 'at Eleven o'Clock

SALISBURY, MARCH 7.—The 'Sir CHARLES
ABBOT arrived this evening, and immediately
opened the Commission for holding the Assizes
for the -.county of Wilts, the biisineSs of which
prdcevded with on Monday. .The Calen-
dar.. is. Onnsually full, there being upwards of i 0
prisoners for trial,
„,Thomac Btliworthy, char yd with the wilfal rntirrier of

HenryH Miles, in this city; one for sacrilege ; five for issuinit
forzeti notes, purporting to be of the Bank of England ; 20
house-breaking; four for highwayrobbery ; two for sheep
• ste.ilina; three for horse stealing; and the ronainder for
• vskritotis felonies and other offences.

REGISTE,R.•
Perfarnted Las/ Night.
THEATRE BoYAJ., DRURY:L.% Nft.—King Richard the :
Doh:. of Gloucester, Mr. Kean : Lady Anne, Miss Ll.,y‘ce.
After which, Thp 19:11,eeper's Dam liter.
THEATIM It f, Co vII.:T -(1.1 10th time), Fazio: Gi-
midi Fazio, Mr.. C. liemble; Bianca, Miss O'Neill, Alter
which, Harlequin Gulliver. .