The Sun.
London, England, 1818-04-21 00:00:00

WAYS
,AND MEANS

£3,000,000 Annual. I),nliCS
• Excise Duties;` ...... 3,500,000
• • 250,000 Lottery 25,0,000
400,000. Old tiri,rc •
1,5014000 Arrears of =-.ltojierey Tax received and
not d. or t‘; i)e received
.• -..befor, rre ath 250,000
lloney re, • at the dtspr,itikm
of i'..e:,,ootnit; in'respect of Fzuins
paid into the Exeheouer, ity the
• C:ommissiontri-1,1- he _manage-
/. ;ruent' of Cumin:l.4A Excht-quer
Bids .

21,443

7,271,459
Subccripfinn Loan • 3,000,000
By .11:xkliequer.linli funded 47,272,700 '
- • 30,272,700

• • ,C:37,544;148
The Itigh t non, Gentleman then proceeded to
congratulate the ilouse the,very gratifying im-
.provement in the principal branches of the reve-
nue. It would be seen, when- the isecounts.shonld
be *produced. of the different branches of the Ex-
, .cise, in the last year, asconi.pared with the pre-
that.-in .71 revenue of 4.800,0001. there had
been in the last quarter an improvement of
515',0001. or
.more that-, 10 per cent. on the whole
amount of the 1-4;xcise. A great improvement had
taken place in the Excise Duties. In the present
.9nat ter 'hoe was an excess of •121,0001. over the
corresponding quarter of the last year. This alone
•he considered sufficient to cover the difference be-
tween the sum received for war duties in ihe.last
year, and that which he calculated upon as their
produce in this. ;hie circumstance he might refer
to, from Which a fair judgment might be formed
of the improvement likely to take place in this
branch of the revenue. A bonus had been offered
to those who paid the duties on sugar before the
sth January, 1818, and a considerable sum was
paid into the Exchequer by the time specified.
Notwithstanding :his, the produce of the present
quarter exceeded that of the corresponding quar-
ter, in 1817, by 5 or 600,0001. When this in-
crease in the Customs was found to have taken
place under such circumstances, it would be seen
the improvement in the present quarter would
have been very considerable, if the duties had not
been anticipated. Looking, for Ward to the pro-
duce of tire' present year, he could not but ealcuis,
late that the revenue arising front its navigation
and. internal industry would he slid] as to give a
considerahle surplus the Consolidated Fund.
For the charges thrown on the Consolidated Fund
this year, he should propose no new taxes. lie
„would at all events abitain from doing so till next
year, and i 0 the interim he -hoped the circum-
,' stances of the year, or the consequences of the
`,great* measure now submitted to the House, would
Jurnish the incians Of'pt Ovidiog for them, in a man-
nee the • most satisfactory to the public. The
kloniturable. Gentleman concluded by mov-
fits fiesolution, which stated in detail the
terms on which the SubseribetS Cu the New Three
and a llalf per Cent. Stock were to be admitted.
Mr,. BRoUGHANI observed, that after the great
inultipliciry' of tid ail-, and even variety of princi-
ple,-displ ye,l in the Right lion. Gentleman's
exposition of his views with regard to the finan-
sithation of the country, it was quite' impos-
,sible'ou this occasion to follow him, or discuss ef-
fectually all the branches of hiS argument. It ap-
peared to hint, however, upon a general view of
the subject, that the plan note submitted for the
service of the year was calculated mainly to conceal
the true nature of those ()aerations to which tire
flight floo Gent, propoed to have recourse, The
st.atement of'tacts I esolved itself into this, that upon
a comparison of the revenue with the charges upon
it, there was a clear dcficit of 14.000,0001. which it
was necessary to neik'e up sonic how or other.
By the present pian it was proposed to borrow this
sum, but not iii the ordinary mink. A new form
of proceeding had been invented, the loan was' to
be cast into a different shape, and the interest pay-
able'nPon it, amounting to 1,200,0001. per atm.,
was., it seemed, to be charged 011 the Sinking
Fond. - This being the trite result of all the Hight
Hon Gentle Man's calculations, and the upshot of
.he case being, that iu the third or fourth year of
peace we were still to burrow; to this enormous

. .
extent, he could not, fo7 one, join in those,flat-
tering congratulations which the ['wise had re-
c;:lvod on the growing pi asperity of the coantry.
So fair, *misted, was the co-intry from any prospect
Of 111-,kiug the ,wo ~.nds of ex,pctice and revenue
meet, that new nt-ans (mist be provided, for
aischargiug the interest of Loads, and to
the old War Taxes were rim vire dry, it
,had become necessary to apply to tile .!•inking
P.tni. He really deemed it wi.te and prudent
in such circumstances to abstain from any ex•
pressi,ns of trotinph At tire flourishing state at tire
nation ii finances The Right Hat). Gentleman
lad seemed to treat his present plan as a sort of
halt-way-house for the conversion, in their pro-
gress downwards, of the 5 and fire 4 p:r. cents.
Now, if he expected that the holders of ibe 5 per
cents. would he willit4; to transfer their claims to
the, accuptance of stock heat::tg a lower rate Of
interest, he lutist think that t! !e p-rsoas disposed
to this commutation would prefer the four to the
three and a half per cent. stock. He was aware,
that it was pretended the stockholder would hav- a
greater confidence in the 3.A Oct cent. fond, from
its being less liable to be reduced; hut lie could:
only say for himself., that• he should certaittlY
prefer, with all i,s chances, an interest of 4 to an
interest of 3i per cent. He would not 'conclude three
few desultory
remarks without protesting once
more against that part of the Ways end' Means
which provided for a
,portion of the supplies by
another lottery. He wasnot more struck with the
paltry anti contemptible snip which was raised in
this manner, than by the inconsistency) the grOss
awl palpable inconsistency, •which it presented
with one of the articles of the supply. The Right
Hon. Gentleman, in his defence of Lotteries on
other occasions, had been driven as it were to his
last subterfuge, and unable to deny the evil he Iced
maintained that the financial %tants of the .coons
try did not permit this sacrifice to its morals. The.
answer given to the appeals of his Hon: Friend
(Mr. Lvttleton) on this subject was, that the mo-
tley could nor be spared ; and yet by this very
scheme 00,0001. were to, be given away to Spain.
,is a compensation to tier for abolishing the Slave
Trade. He had not. found fault with the treaty
by which we entered into this engagement ; on
tlre contrary, he had s'ood by tlre light Hon.
Gentleman it) his defence; but he deemed it at the
sante time fitting to express his sense of the incon-
sistency, and was happy to take this early op-
portunity of declaring what the general impres-
sion was which tire statement of the Right Hon.,
Gentleman had produced in his own mind.
Mr. GRENFELL disapproved of the bargain made
by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, (and this he
had taken an opportunity Of previously stating to
the Right Hon. Gentleman) as extravagant and
injin ious to the country. The Right Hon. Gen-
tleman had raised a loan at all .interest of four

and a half per cent. when he might have proc.lr-
ed one on more favourable.terms. He had raised
3,000,0001. tor which he gave an annuity which
cost he contractors 1,,!t 661. arid he funded his
ExclietpierTllS t 791. The Right Hon: Gen-
tlernan•thos mole a sacrifice of 131. on 661._ which

MIS nearly ta: tie late of 201. I►rr cent., and o.tiq
o►i the 3,000,0001. tl►cre w:►s a loss of 600,0001:

_ .
—He objected to Lids, as the advantage expected
from it was only continwnt, and might_ never be
realised. The plan of the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer seemed to be founded on the prospective,
and surely he might say the doubtful prospect;
of being able, at the end of 10 years, to induce_
the bolsters of the three and a 1)411 per Cent.
Stock, to take three per cent. for their money-.
—This could not be effected unless the price of
Stocks should rise very high. :The option given
to the parties with whom this bargain bad been
made to fund Exchequer Bills now, or to wait to
do so till\ the 2d May, he thought improvidently
conceded. The advantages thus, given to then,
were incalculable. If Stocks should, rise, they
Would then fund their Exchequer Bills but if
they should fall to 79, for instance, they would

hen made their how, and have nothing to do

with his Exchequer Bills or with him. The Right
Hon. Gentleman had said, that he never knew an
instance of the parties falling back when the time
arrived for making it good ; but he (Mr. Grenfell)
contended there would be nothing dishonourable
in their doing so, when the option was thus for-
mally secured .to theta.
Mr. MABERLY believed that the Right Hon.
Gentleman had a right to congre.tulate himself on
the bargaiN which he-had negociated. He thought
that the Right Hon. Gentleman had made a tu,st
advantageous bargain for the public, and a disad-
vantageous oue for the subscribers. That part of
the bargain which gave
..an option to the sob=
scribers he considered bad, as it might leave: the
subscriber to fund or not. He would rake the

liberty of asking the Right; Hors. Gentleman what
was the amount of the deficiency of the Consoli-
dated Fund for this year He wished to know
this, because, if he_underst.ood the fact correctly,
the interest of the national debt was charged on
the Consolidated Fund, and if there was any defi-
ciency,. he shbuld be glad to learn where it was
to be met.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER would
avail himself of this opportonity to say a few
words in reply to some of the observations of the
Hon. Member ivlio had just sat down, and of the
Hon. Gentleman who had preceded him. The one
had stated, that there was a deficiency to be pro,
%Idea, for of 14,900,0021.; but it must be remem-
,bered that a very con..iderable part of that sum
arose froM extraordinary charges, and which h'agl
been growing from the increase of the unfunded
debt. Under that head the charge for the

hist year was 1,600,0001.. Next year we might
confidently- expect that the amount of
quer Bill, would not exceed 40,000,0001. 'in-
stead of 60,000,0001. and 'then the .Charg.e
be reduced 900,0001. • As to •the deficiency
the consolidated fund in the last year, he begged
to inform the other lion. Member, that if Wi
something less than 2,000,0001. The' Floii.:'thicP
Learned Gentleman who first addressed tile filviie
had expressed all opinion, that the subscribers had
no reason to confide in the hope that oO'fritith6
reduction would be made in' the stock. • NoW, the
Honourable Gentletban who spoke last but one
had said that the stibicribers would be guaranteed
for 10 years, and it was not likely that the fubd
would be reduced after that. time. He should
himself entertain no fear on that head. As to the

option respe:.-tingthe Excliegner begged
to observe, that he never tentembeird an ittstanCe
in which • subscribers had declined fnhfilli g an
optional- engagement; and the reason why lip:),
bad not 5o declined was obvious enough, namely,
beecitise these eng7tgenient were g_etiortllv- very
beneficial to thew, arnl tie Was inclined to
that they would consider it very advantageous in
the. present instance.
Mr. 17 LEWIS e.ntered at considerable length
into the Merits of the proposition. lie contended
it was imprudent policy indeed, when, money in
private. life could be had at tour per ceut. that
Government should be foolish enough to give foor
and a half for money for the public Although
it iticreased -the interest, it provided for no reduc-
tion unlit this new stock was :thov;:. 90 per cent.
the :iverage of thethreeand a lt,tlf pet' etnt. Com-
pared tt ith stock 1 now', ;.eii; 871. 10s. Thought
the reduction Of course was desirable, lie contend-
ed, it was nor desiraWe in thin waY. Filially, he
objected to it, as it rennered the Sioking Fund a
were nominal avail inefficient piece of machioery,
productive 01no gew.ral benefit.
Mr. 11.-DAvis. approved a‘t the proposed Pian;
and saw po prjudieial consequences likely to exist:
from the,inereaied rate of interest.

lii reply. to fi question from Mr„ edrieun4o
SHAW,. 'C IA: of thr! .F./XCHEGIIYEIL
Steieci; that ,the Cominissionets fur reducing the
debt •woulli of course purchase such stock as was
(invest it) !lit- rrii ket. • •

Sir JouN NEwronT expressed himself anxious
to hearEwhaller, as the creation of 311 per rent.
Stock was secured from redempftm for leo years,
tiny ne,v additio;i to that Stock -wotild be entitle it
to` the same privilege I 01 was a Hoe of distinc-
tion to be• drawn between tli one anti the o;her ?•
Mr. -HUSEIssoN observed, that though a Sink-
ing Fund of 1 per cent. was to be applied, to the
32 per cent. yet the Commissioners for the te-
demption of the Public Debt n ere not precluded
from. applying
.a greater portion, whenever _the
Stock had.reached the level, and is hen it nould he
advantages to the public to redeem. With respect
to some observations that had talleofrom his Mott.
Friend (Mr. Lewis), he must 14y, that they ap-
peared-paradoxical. Ile had called the plan of his
Honourable Friend, the Chancellor of 'the Exche-
quer, a close loan. It was rather a curious tern'
to apply to a proposition, which gave 'thrice to
every man who could purchase.2oool. 3per cents.
to become subscribers. It was also objected, by
his Honourable Friend, that the Government were
paying 41. I Os. whilst individuals could horror,
the sane money •at 41. per cent. Ile was happy
to hear that such a facility in getting money on.
interest now existed. But if, by thcsopt.rat ion of
the new plan, the 371 per cent. should soon be.
nearly at par, thecoutmiou of the 5 per cent-s.
Stock would he butte
.adv:antageonsly and, easily
effected. He considered, therefore, the benefits
of the plan to be evident, inasmuch as it went to
produce a great deduction in the nominal auioubt
of the debt, whilst,. hit the vim of 3,00.,0091. it
afforded a saving of 21,0001..1 o the Consolidated.
Fond. The Comtnittee would also recollect, wile.
ther in a period of peace the floating debt had not
reached an amount which rendered it neccssaty
to fund a certain 'portion of it. It would other-
wise be impossible justly to ascertain what the
compat ative _scale was . between,. our .expet,diture
and revenue, or .what might ultimately be the
Peace Establishment of the Cotnit ry. But
he protested against,: the doctrine that there
existed no• Sioking Fond. It was true,
that, wirh the winding up of the expellees
of the war, its operation had been contracted,
but when. lite country Was relieved from certain
charges that ceased with the •Ytell',. and we had ar,
rived -at the permanent peace' arrangement, the
Sinking Fond would then exert its influence in the
most beneficial' manner. • It would I,ot, Ito, ever,
be wise, by a too extensive operation of the Sink-
ing FUnd, to force up the price of the Funds ; ‘i•e,
should endeavotir to regulate the system, so that
even. in the event
.of a change of our external re-
lations, no very ,iolent fluctuation might foltow.
time of peace theee'tkas nothing imperative on.
the ChancellOr of the. Exchequer to accelerate a
permanent arrangement. Therefore, should any
disinclination Manifest itself, it was in his power
to avail himself of Other expedients to nit et the
service of the present year. Indeed, it would,
under all Citctimstances, be desirable to postpone
A permanent arrangement, moil the• House could
see what would he the Moult!' of the charges
upon the country, and of the revenue. to sustaitt
them.

Mr. J. P. GRANT could not admit. thr value of
the benefit which the 1-16 n. Gentlemen assumed,
when they argued on the decrease of the nominal
amount of the Debt. The fact was, that the-coun-
try dealt lu annuities. The question (1.1411 was,
what was the, price at which they purchased, with
the Funds in the hands of the Commissioners for
the Redemption of the National Debt, compared
with what they now paid to these who transterred
their subscrivtions to the 31 per cent. Fund ? If
Haley now paid 4). 10s. for money, which. others
could borrow at a much lesser rate (If interest, it
.was as clear as the light of the sun that the bar-
gain-was disadvantageous to 'the pnhlic.- The
Hots. Gentleman (Mr. Huskisson) talked of a say-
ing,front the permanent expenditure of ft million
and a half, arising out of the interest *lid Sinking
Fund now paid on Exchequer Bits. But coin-
pared with this'reduction, what would 'he the
charge on the 'sanded . Debt ? How was that
charge to. he' met, but by'the application Of the
Sinking 'Fund The great admission at length
'was this,ilhat the Sinking Fend was ,now to he
applied to the payment of the interest, and no
longer to the reduction of the debt.
(IRAN? insisted that there was " nothing.
Oovetbr Unprecedented in the arrangement of his
'llrgtit' Hon. Friend:. It was the same that had
been acted upon on' a larger scale by Mr. Pitt,,
114''great author of , the Sinking Fund, when he
'eselittaFtite 5 per Cents. and altered the hillier-
iteet''sitid • impolitic plan tof increasing the no-
plan_ without a closer reference to the
aMOttnt of "06' real debt. By the proposed plait
80,','000,0001„'was raised, by creating a capital
'something exceeding; 34,000,0001. The expellee
was* the rate of 1281, stock though by dui
lather 'plan, and taking the stocks in the
most favourable light at 80, would have cost at
•Ile,rate of 1381. It was unfair to take the gene.'

rift chlenlation by piece-meal, instead of looking
at it AS a whole, and under the cireninstanees in
‘vhich it was taken. There was, in tact, a say-
fug. of 90.0001. in the mode of raising Ilia money,
besides an ii,Tease of capital, and its favourable
conseq the Fends. The 1-lonotrahle and
Learned G,ntletnen recaptinlated some of the de-
tAils of ttt.
,plan, as stated by the Chancellor of
the Exc!tegner, 4nd expressed his warm appoba-
tiop

Mr. LYTTLEToN said, he could not permit this
ques,ion to go to the vote without reminding the
Uight Hon. Gentleman of one item in his Budget
--namely, the Lottery. He could not refrain
from saying a- few words as to the inconsistency
of the Right Hon. G-ntlernan on this subject- It
was very strange, that wt ile the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman was voting 1.,000,0001. to build churches,
he should by the Lottery system he in f-,ct open-
ing gaming-honses all over the kingdom. The
Right HMI. Gentleman had described himself
very good hutnouredly as a hardened sinner -an
expression which could not have been applied to
him with) rkcortun by any other person. But he
could not help thinking that the Right Hon. Gen.
tlem3o would be more accurately described) as a
soft saint \s his own opinion respecting Lot-
teries remained unaltered, lte gaVe this notice that
he intended to submit to the House a motioi on
the subject,

Mr. (-iv E:CFELL Wi lied to as!, a question.of ie
lion. Gentleman.
.1-le•would suppose e
3 per cents_ to be a! 80, and the 32 per cents.
91. It would he more advantageous to have the
.7.11 per cents. at 91, than the 3 per cents. at €0:
there %void(' he more profit at it. lie merely
wished to ask 111111, whether with that ditYttrence
lie would'advist the Commlssiotiers to buy into
the 31- tier cents ? _ _

. The CnatiGeLLoa of the Er.c-riEutreft said, he
thou.;;ht fur. next year at least he should recom-
mend in.u.e purchasers in the 31 per cents. than
in the 3 per ce,,ts., though not the ‘vhnle of the
money that was to be applied : (the Right Hon.
Gentleman +• as understood to say, not to exceed
the pron,rtion of one per ,en'.)
Mr. GKENFEL,L said, that for every Loan there
had been a fee paid to the Bank for receivinv. de-
posits of about 8001. per million. Upon the last
Lao raised, that fee ittnotruted to no less than
40,0001 The Committee in 1786, that of 1797,
and that of 1807, every one had put their finger
upon that as an exorbitant charge upon the pub-
lic. He wished to ask, whether any such charge
would be' made on the present Loan, or whether
it w,tild be made on the 3;000,0001., 01 on the
whole 30,000,0001.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEC.HER replied in
so a low tone t lt,tt lie was inandible.

Mr. GUENFELL said lie understood the.charge
was to br made. and kvhether it should he on the
3,000.0001. or 30,000,0001. be should oppose it
In f' very stage.
The Resolutions were then agreed to, the House
resumed, and the Report was ordered to be brought
up to-morrow.