The Sun.
London, England, 1842-06-04 00:00:00

competition, but they wanted something on that side of the
House; aiiil so the Right Hoe. Gentleman and the Noble Lord
came with something to go to the country with. They said
they wished a discriminating duty of [Os. This was very
like the 8.. duty on corn.—( Cheers.) New let them see the
consequence. At present there was a duty of 635. upon foreign
sugar, and 245. on colonial sugar, which was a difference in
favour of our own colonies of ::9s. Now the Right Hon.
Gentlemen proposed a duty of 30s. on foreign sugar and •20s.
on colonial suga-; making, thereby, a difference of 10s. Now
this was the question he wanted answered, would the difference
in the duty of 10s. keep out the foreign sugar? If it would
not, would it not put out of the market the colonial sugar?—
( No, no.) No; why that was a kind of hoeus pocus.—
( Cheers and laughter.) In the case of foreign sugar he took
the figures of the Noble Lord, the price was 21s. He would
take it from the colonies at 395. and the 20s. duty would make
595. ; but '2ls. to 30s. duty made 51e. So that there would be
a difference in price of foreign sugar and colonial sugar of Bs.
Was that protection to the colonial interest ? It was or it was
not. If it eas to keep out foreign sugar it would be no protec-
tion to the colonial interest. He wanted to know how they
could get out of that. Now his proposal was 245. to be paid, so
that ',ls. and 245. would make 455.; and 395. and 215.---03 e,
and the difference between foreign and colonial sugar would be
IBs., so the whole of the great discussion was upon that point
that there should be some distinct-on between colonial and
foreign sugar, and by a kind of mystification, they wanted that
the country should be benefited by cheap sugar, and the
colonies to get advantage from protection. Now, this was a
fallacy. It was either one thing or the other. It was either
protection or no protection. If it was protection, they had
dear sugar ; if no protection, it was at the expense of the co-
lonies. He did not like to mince matters, but he was alto
"'ether against the colonial system. It was a system by which
the' people of England were taxed. The Noble Lord was
there to quarrel with the proposal which he (Mr. I 1.) had made.
Now he had something to say to the Right Hon. Gentleman
the Vice-President of the Board of Trade, who would not ans-
wer his proposition, though he did answer the proposition of
the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Macaulay). lie could reply
to the Right lion. Gentleman's proposal by saying, that danger
to the revenue would be incurred by its adoption ; but no such
objection could apply to his (Mr. Roebuck's) plan. Instead of
doing that, indeed, it would add to the revenue; it would in-
crease the comforts of the community, and would be of great
rcneral advantage ; and that the Right Hon. Gentleman did
not deny. Though the Right Hon. Gentleman did not reply
to his ( Mr. Roebuck's) proposition, he said it could be answered,
and he supposed the answer would be that it would give them
some excase for levying from the people of England 3 or
4,000,000/. of money, when the same advantage could be done to
the revenue by another plan. with no harm to any individual
except those called the West Indian interests—the in-
terest of a set of barren islands, for which they had
dearly paid, and which they only maintained at the
expense of the breath and blood of this country. Where :',id
England derive one single advantage from this interest ?
Jamaica, to the bott m of the sea, and al the Antilles after
it !—(A laugh.) He wanted the representatives of the West
Riding of Yorkshire to say what advantage had been
received by England in the manufacturing or agrie
cultural interests from the West Indies. What benefit
did- the poor weavers of Lancashire receive in return
for paving dear for their sugar? He knew they had
fought for those islands, had conquered them, had lost much
money, more blood, and gained much misery. He wanted
to know the advantage, he wished to grapple the difficulty
there, at its head and front. Let no one go away impressed
with a notion that he did anything else but vote away the
strength, the health, and the happiness of this country, when
he voted fur the differential duty. Yes, he would he making
the ioor man—he would use the Noble Lord's own expres-
sion—pay dearly in his weekly bill, pay dear for that food
which he earned with the sweat of his brow, from the rising
of the sun to his going down, nay, sometimes many hours
before the rising of that great luminary, and many hours
after his setting. Ile wished he could see the Hon. Mem-
ber for Knareshorough, who was usually so eloquent a
defender of the people of this country in his place ;
hr wished he would go to his friends and ask them what be-
nefit the weavers of West Yorkshire would derive from the West
Indian gentry; he would ask of the House, he would ask of
the Right. Hon. Baronet, to give them something more in the
shape of argument, than the flimsy thing with which the
Chancellor of the Exchequer commenced his statement—viz.,
that he was about to commence means for putting down the
slave trade, at an expense of 4,000,0001. per annum, which
was to be drawn, be it observed,- from the pockets of the
poor, not front the rich, for theirs would be but a drop in the
mighty ocean. For the shadow of the Quixotic hope of putting
1 down the slave trade, they were now about to tax the poor of.
this country t• their very life's blood.—( Hear. )
Mr. P. STEWART rose to explain, and said that what he
stated was, that he was a free trader, and a condemner of mo-
nopolies.—( Oh, oh !) The Hon. Gentleman misrepresented
him in another part ; he said that he stated that he was for the
restoration of slavery by the British nation. Why, he argued
in a manner directly the reverse. There never was a more un-
founded statement than that made against him by the Hon. and
Learned Member for Bath.

Mr. BERNAL said that before they came to a division he I
he would say a few words on the subject. To sit there for
hours together and hear certain documents read, certain state-
ments
made, certain modes of argument advanced, to hear all 1
that with meekness showed more of the stupidity of an irrational i
being than the patience of a rational one. But the Hon. and
Learned Member for Bath (Mr. Roebuck) was a philosopher, I
and hated mystification and circumlocution, and he (Mr. I
Bernal), too, was an enemy to circumlocution, and hated mys- 1
tification, and he wished to enter the lists of plain dealing. His
Hon. and Learned Friend started with one argument, which he l
(Mr. Bernal) was not able to meet. He said perish Jamaica ; /
drown the Antilles ; ruin your colonies. But that ;
did not convince him (Mr. B.) as to the inutility of those solo- 1
rues. He would say, long flourish Jamaica and the Antilles,
and long flourish Great Britain. The well-being of the mother
country was bound up with the prosperity of those dependen- 1 I
cies, as it was with that of the counties of York or Durham. 1
When an Hon. Member Who sat behind him, but whom he did ,
not now see in his place, had spoken to-night of the expenses
of Jamaica, did not the Hon. Gentleman know that Jamaica
raised taxes—that it had its poll-taxes, its parochial taxes,
and that out of those taxes the salaries of officers employed
under Government were paid ? It was said the expenses of re-
giments in the colonies were paid by the mother country—why
wes not She expense of reg ments in Scotland paid
by the mother country ? He heard it said that Ja-
maica
paid taxes. Why, FO did Scotland. What were I
Jamaica and Barbadoes ? Why, were not the prosperity and
glory of England founded upon her flourishing navigation and
commerce, her sxtensive marine? His Hon. Friend (Mr. F.
Stewart) had risen to defend himself, but he did not require
it. What his Hon. Friend had said was, that a most sanatory I
and important measure had been passed—the negro eroanci- 1
pasion, and that it threw our West India colonies into a most
singular situation ; that they were not prepared for so sudden
a step ; that eve, y thing had been unhinged; the system of
agricultural labour completely overthrown ; and that at, the
present moment there was not a sufficiency of labour
for the land. In the West Indies the labourers
were independent of the landed proprietors. They required
but little for their wants, and in a tropical soil two or three
hours a day were quite sufficient for the cultivation of land for
the production of provisions. They possessed land to
which they had a prescriptive right, and from which
he would not be answerable for the consequence of
their ejectment ; and he would like to know what la-
bourer would work without the necessity for so doing
He was sorry to say, that the price of sugar was much exagge-
rated in the printed statements. British Colonial sugar might
be bought now, duty included, at about. 60e or 61s. in London. 1
He had as much feeling as any person for the situation of his
fellow sufferers, but when he heard that three farthings reduc-
tion in the price of sugar would contribute to the relief of the
artisan of Birmingham or Manchester, he could not sit down
with common patience and submit to be classed with those who
' wished to oppress his fellow countrymen. A reduction of 3d.
or 4d. might be a relief tothem, but he would tell Hon. Gentle-
men, that though they might get sugar from Cuba and Florida.
and the Brazils, they never would have it reduction of 3d. or
4d. in the pound. When the Hon. Member for Bath talked of
this being a boon to the West India interest, he forgot
the East Indies altogether, for he should know the duties were
equalized, and that the East Indian interest would be equally
benefited with the West Indies. He did not vote on the
motion of the Hon. Member for Bath, because he was an in-
terested party, and he would adopt the same course on the
present motion.—(Loud cries of " Divide, divide.")
Sir R. PEEL said he could not waive his privilege of rising,
because it was evident if this debate were allowed to go on
between the party opposite, there would be a degree of pique
and asperity it would not be right should proceed.—(Much
laughter.) It would therefore be necessary for him to inter-
pose between the Hon. Gentlemen.—(Laughter.) It would
be requisite to throw oil on the troubled waters.—( Laughter. )
But he hoped the House would come to this practical conclusion,
that by far the safest course they could adopt was, to vote for
the proposition of her Majesty's Government, and to leave
those other propositions in the hands of the Honourable
Gentlemen opposite—( Loud laughter)—for it was evident
the adoption of either of the rival propositions would produce
no satisfaction whatever.— (Laughter.) He did not speak
against the motion for the Hon. Member for Bath, but he voted
against it. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman said it would
b entirelyi different, if Jamaica was merged in the sea, arid
if the Antiilesf ollowed. These were the principles by which
he would convert the House. But he (Sir Robert Peel)
thought that calm reasoning was hardly necessary to confute
them. The Hon. Member for Montrose wished to maintain
these colonies, and all his object was, that:each colony should
maintain itself.—( Laughter, and cheers.) Yes, but he ( sir
Robert Peel) apprehended his proposition to admit those
colonies to unlimited competition with slave colonies, was not
the -way to effect that object. He would row ask, would this
he any advantage to the artisan of Lancashire or Yorkshire ?
Was he to go to a distressed weaver of Yorkshire and to ask
him what was to be got from Jamaica ; and if he gave hint an
unsatisfactory answer, was he to ask the same question with
respect to this country ; and, upon such grounds, was he to
state that he was prepared to dissolve the whole connection
with this country and the colonies ?—( Hear, hear.) If that '
was the course the Hon. Gentleman was prepared to pursue,
they must resolve their powers into their own shores, and try
what England could do against the world.—( Hear, hear.) He
would ask the House whether the Government was not intiticd
to demand its confidence with respect to this proposal.--
( Hear, hear.) The proposal was, that for another year year
the annual vote on the Sugar Duties should be granted. That
was the proposition on which the House was called upon to
decide. He would ask hail the Government taken a course
. .

with respect to the amendment of the tariff, which disentitimi
it to the consideration of the House ?—( Hear, hear.) He would
venture to say that the weakest of all interests in that House
in political votes was the West Indian interest.—( Hear,
hear.) It might in an unreformed Parliament have been
powerful ; but, looking at it in its present state, he
thought it would be a most unwise step to create enemies
in England for the purpose of supporting the West India in-
terest. The Noble Lord opposite had taunted him with re-
spect to the course the Government had pursued ; now, lie
had been ten years in office, and he had never proposed any
alteration in the tariff. ; he had never proposed to alter the
duty on the importation of foreign cattle. What, however,
had been the course pursued by the present Ministry. The)
had done all they could to give a facility to the imporation
of foreign cattle. When the Noble Lord talked of the fear
of offending powerful interests, he would ask, had he net run
as great a risk as Minister ever ran, when he saw a hundred
Members prepared to vote against him, and yet was deter-
muted to proceed ? The Noble Lord had put forth a propo-
sition entirely different from last year, and he, therefore,
could not blame them for opposing a proposition which he
now opposed himself. He could not agree with the Hon. Gen-
tleman who had spoken, that the reductions he had adverted to
would be disregarded ; he went upon a different principle, consi-
dering that the increase of small savings was a great good.
But he was not prepared upon that ground to incur a risk of
a loss to the revenue of 600,0001. Ile had been told that the
Income-tax would be more productive than he anticipated, and
that, therefore, they shculd diminish the duty upon a commo-
dity which entered so much into the consumption of every class
as sugar. Now if he had yielded to the argument in each par-
ticular case which might be urged, he would venture to say that
at the end of next year, notwithstanding the Income-tax, he
would have a sleficit in the revenue amounting to 2,000,000/.
No doubt it would be a great advantage to re-
duce the duty upon wool, or upon cotton, or upon
various other articles ; but it was impossible
.that a
Minister of the Crown conld recommend extensive re-
! duct ions in each of those articles. Again, be would venture to
say that they could not confer a greater benefit upon the people
of this country than by. reducing the duty on the. manufacture
of glass; but the public exigences dad not admit of that re