The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-24 00:00:00

es
* opininlis
those men was the cruel, and unchristian and accursed 1 of that House, refrained from expressing their
~
.111
system of slavery upheld ; and why was this? because I where they were to be met and refuted, but whe, llertef
gave a r
rest
they were depeedent upon the popular voice for their ' did not themselves speak at these meetings,
maintenance ; but this could not be' the case, sanction, which, from men of high standing, Was...,(eig.issa
if they were placed in a position that would imortance, by not expressing their dissent ; anti 'll the
make them independent of their flocks. The tempt was made to excite ill feeling, and undone
same speaker then went on to say, that it would be of good that had been effected in the public mind. ,
fltittbde
immense importance to the Roman Catholic clergy of grant of the last fifty years to Maynooth, men or made
Ireland if they were placed in a position that would had lent themselves to it. Persons of character woeJ
put them beyond the reach of the influence the most exaggerated statements when heated by
of popular passion ; and if the appointment disputes. He would read for the House the speech of
of those clergymen was entirely unshackled it Hon. Member for Neweastie-under-Lyrae, in opeusie n
would be of great importance, for then they would be to the Bill. In that House the lion. Member tribal; ee
in some measure independent." Now, he did net think speech, certainly opposed to the gramt,
hftracter,
that their experience of Ireland, from last year, fully so lukewarm, mild, and inoffsnsive a C-- ,Ei .
bore out the fact that such an altered state of things that one would he inclined to doubt thne_fbe" r ,
would be for the benefit of that country. What had taken cority of his dissent, but that Honourable hi ho1"a
place in Ireland, in reference to the Bequest Act ? delivered a speech at Exeter-hell which was calcueo_ie
The Most Rev. Dr. Murray, who had taken office to aroase and excite the feelings of the entire IPmOO,
under that Bid, had been exposed to the most violent —that speech was printed by the Anti-Maynoethi, end
hostility and assault fur having done so; but he held his ciation, and published in a pamphlet of Mr. Lord s' had
ground until the storm had blown over, which would in the Churchman's Monthly Review—and whienneee
have continued much longer than it did but for Mr. been commented upon and quoted as a text of imago,
O'Connell, who stopped it, seeing that it would authority. If the poor people out of doors knell
totild
lead to no good to let it go on any longer. Mrmhers as well as they knew one another they But
But instead of citing Dr. Murray, who held not put so much trust in them.—(Hear, hean) d tee
a deservedly high character in public estimation, as an allowence ought to be made for the period, that
instance, he would ask, why should even the most humble atmosphere in which these speeches were delivert:(7.ii; e
'
Roman Catholic clergyman be exposed to such speech was made in 1836; it was published i
tribunal ? He now came to the motion of endow- Churchman's Review .
ment, which lie looked upon as one of the greatest Mr. COLQUHOUN—It was not published bye enob•
importance. It was a question which had Mr. WART)—That may be. That speech eeiter
taken a fast hold of the minds of the people of 'jelled by Mr. Lord, and contained the grossest litotes.
England, and also of the people of Scotland ; but in sion of facts regarding Ireland that he had ever ne,rii oas
England it had so perver:ed and warped the minds of It staled that at the moment when Maynecnuegos
the people, that it made them insensible to the many founded, and when Dr. Reilly and Dr. Troy were .0 tee
wrongs their laws had inflicted on Ireland.—Olear.) tinting with Mr. Pitt on that subject, they we ll
wit eh
The Hon. Baronet admitted that lie could not pretend cies, st connexion with Wolfe Tune, and labourinseout
to govern Canada or Malta on the same terms that he him to revolutionise Ireland, and to sever the cennstatett
would undertake the government of Ireland to morrow. between Ireland and England. It further acted
They were, he said, bound by capitulation, and they that the Roman Catholic bishops had never sores
were bound by compact, but they were bound by loyally except when they were engaged inOs not
something much higher, they were bound by treacherous design—some secret treason which el' :i: the
common sense, and common prudence, and ripe for execution. There was no question as '''' de.
common justice. The Honourable Baronet knew reception which ought to be given to a propesitiontei
is :h is
that a religious establishment was no part of testable. It ought to be met with the scorn
Christianity—it was only a means of inculcating it. An merited—every lover of his country—every personn.leillf
fa....;
establishment depended upon its utility, and its utility ing the name of patriot, he would lay down his
was bounded by its extent. The alliance between thousand lives if he had them— Het 0
the Church and State depended, as was said Mr. COLQUEIOUN—I did not say
by the Church on its extent. How did thie. ear'
the Established in Ireland bear'out this ? Was Mr. WARD—Mr. Lord is answerable for this Pse
ISO
the Church in Ireland in accordance with Hallam's sion; but as to the statements regarding the Gentle'
beautiful definition of a State Church, that it Catholic bishops, he would ask the Right lion. 91 rof
ought to exist by the will of, and for the people ? man at the head of the Government, the Chalice ; the
a single We
In some parts of Ireland the members of the the Exchequer, or any authority on that side °prise
Established Church were but as one per cent. to the House who was decently conversant with 0 of
whole population, and yet every attempt at affairs, whether Dr. Troy was not V eser
change— every attempt to give a proximation the most devoted friends that t
Englana_, re.
of justice for the present measure was not had ?—(Hear, hear.) And as to the charge
n!! rtbnie
intended for anything more than proximate justice— hellion, it was well known that in 1793 all the 1 ' „rill'
every attempt of this sort was met by the Hon. Baronet clergy of Ireland were in a state of terror lest tite.lere
with an appeal to the principles of George the Third, ciples of the French Revolution should take roontha or
and Mr. Percival. He (Mr. Ward) had been favoured Many of them had been expelled from France wile 00
with a pamphlet written by Mr. percieens son, in which, greatest indignity, and the chief exertions of the.ueiple.
speaking of the Hon. Baronet, he said, " Sir R. H. [FOL.?, w:re to prevent the taint of the revolutionary Pile boai
the man %%hose public and private character mostnearly re - from spreading in Ireland, and out of the velle're ehc'
sembles the character of that statesman whose prophetic of the Catholic clergy of Ireland there was not
.cle 00
foresight these pages are intended to illustrate, and who joined in the rebellion of 1798. The rebellinnuut ler
is occupied, like him, in endeavouring to save his Queen created in the north by the Presbyterians, andi iveo to
and country from disgrace and danger." Why the ar- the Catholics, and the people in the south were deep
guments in the pamphlet must be as distasteful to the insurrection by the tyranny of the Gere'Tenieff
Hot.. Member for Elgin (Mr. C. Bruce) as to the This sort of appeal to the popular, smart
Catholics of Ireland. It went to prove that there was ought not to be made by men of Parltal We'
but one true church, and that church was the Protestant standing in this country, and when speeches (In epl
Church. Really, it:that argument were to pass current Members were quoted, they were not to be reli`Ttb,l
in that House, Ise (Mr. Ward) could only say that Mr. as indisputable facts. If there was any breach 0_1;0 0
Percival's ghost, which the Hon. Member for Shrews- was certainly on the side of England ; becauseeteuesr
bury had invoked, was a much more formidable person- notorious fact that the Union could never have 07rale
age than Mr. Percival himself. . In 1807 Mr. Percival
ricd if the Catholics had not been induced to en" esslt
had said that it was yain to expect an established church with the 'Government and the Protestants. irbfeoets 0
to stand, if the principles upon which' that establish- a large body of evidence and many historical
.44. es
ment rested were cut from under it. Bat in the very prove that prior to the fulfilment of Mr. Pitt's, feelee,o
same extract Mr. Percival was represented to admit that it was intended that the church property °in ~ to a
the " sad and anomalous" state of Ireland gave rise to should be alienated. Evidence of this sort iv'''.. (Abell)
very grave considerations.—(Hear.) And the author of found in the "Life of Lord Eldon," and he couldutu hereo
the pamphlet went on to quote from the notes of his thinking that the nature of this evidence oughtii thoegbp
father, in which he admitted that, although he con- prevented the executors from publishing it. 1-1 e ght n°
sidered numbers gave no right to education at the ex- there ::ere things in Lord Eldon's life which en yeti:
pense of the State, policy might. (The Hon. Member to have been laid before the world within tweittlthet
quoted the notes at some length on this point.) Now, he after they occurred. It was stated in that evnr"e niedges
asked, what was the position of affairs after the lapse of sole and only obstacles to the fulfilment of the-4;r 1784
forty years? Catholic Emancipation had been granted, we s the insanity of the King. Lie rcee,
and did not every one who was opposed to his (Mr. there was an anti-Catholic spirit. Let any
cl'thst it;
Ward's) views feel convinced that what they refused the debates of that period and he would fin 0,,00 tor
long ago would have satisfied them, and that moderate most perfect unanimity existed in Parliament r
Wiles
concessions would have prevented them from hearing eeneral question and it was proposed that the Catbegreto
what they now called exorbitant demands? - The Noble Ireland should be emancipated and merged intevatit irso
Lord 'the Member for Dorsetahire had made the most body of the Protestant constituency. He then 0, (le
statesmanlike speech of any one on his side of the many affecting details on the same subjeetsnee by tee
House, and it was remarkable for nothing so much as for Ward) should like to know whether the Queue tbraie
the largenese of its admissions. The Noble Lord said Emancipation Act did not hold possession of bin led
,ly
the measure was great for good or for evil, and that if it by a firmer tenure than did the King who rteh;fol3'se
were passed into a law it would at some future time be the rigour of the penal laws? Up to 1810_0 00e_,
subject to reconstruction. The adoption then of his illness was the sole bar to the granting of the'eur care
(Mr. Ward's) motion would prevent that future recon- sions to the Roman Catholics. After that gut al/fee
struction which the Noble Lord dreaded, for it would the dissolution of the Ministry. Thus it wre the nwthe
give them an opportunity of dealing with the Established benefits promised by England were one altheluglilie u.
Church of Ireland which there had not been for forty lost, and now when they werecomingto sealetty year,°g;
years; and he appealed to those who had for forty years same policy which had actuated them foritie prein"iini
filled the scats of the Government in that House whether they were thwarted in their attempts bps' -ne Vug-,he
they had net felt the Established Church of Ireland engendered in the hearts of the Protesta snorios,Zose
hanging like a mill-stone round their necks. (The 'lon. and Scotland, by the works of Protestant ud the es lie
Member then proceeded to read passages from the professed not the Toryism of his Hon. Elleetr 00.4 e
pamphlet, which referred to the strong expression of ber for Oxford, but a principle peculiarly these that 'e'en
feeling which had reached the House from out of doors.) had spoken of the lion. Baronet, who state", -ratio
Were those feelings out of doors worthy of the respect was a r:ligious question. Nothing could be
...to 1°;1
. of that House? Te Hon, Baronet opposite, the Member absurdity. The interest of the people ever wrune a o
' for the University of Oxford (Sir H. Inglis) told them to their own security, to have tranquillity at. an. et/ale
. see eLber mot that There was nt:t a har;:h word con- power abroad; instead of that, they seemed to thirgerter
tamed in the petitions presented to that House ; that the whole empire was made for the Chuncheeek be:
there was not a word in them which could not be justi- There were other things to which they should In°,oolw
' tied from the HoMilies, Liturgies, and Articles of the fore they dealt with the measure which the G()Ver coif(
Church of England. He- did not think that was a very proposed. It was opposed by a great class of, their sot o
wise admission ; but if it were the fact, it could only be trymen, who conceived it to be a direct infringvytnio‘
because the Liturgy of the Church of England contained their rights, and he (Mr. Ward) did not know with II
terms so harsh, that the greatest dealer in vituperation more dangerous than to connect the conscience but l!_,
.night be satisfied with them. His Hon. Friend the pocket. That was what he wished to avoid, 010;
Member for Finsbury (Mr. T. Duncombe) had asked would say that there were a large body of the Ree,', pe'
whether they were not prepared to show due deference this country and Scotland who told them that 07,0 jai
to those petitioners under whose petitions the table their own clergy, and that it would be an act nrf Mien
of that House groaned. The Hon. G, neeman was right justice, for the sake of tranquillising another ilcicaneth 0
in one thing—he was right in defending the clergy the empire, to tax them for the support °nod Ile;
of the three denominations, as they were called, for they Church to which they did not belong. He c'" t tiler
were the persons whose views were the soundest, and gainsay that argument—he could not .deny thab ole
whose language had been the most moderate. But was was a great deal of force and reason in i!,,ew.teariatil
bee
that the case with other petitioners ? In a petition found that the Presbyterians, Orthodox, and 'nits -
presented by the Noble Lord the Member for Liver- the Independents and the Wesleyan
pool, the petitioners stated that this measure was emt- 11,248 churches, resting entirely on voluntary Se"; 00
nently calculated to bring down the judgment of God on The Independents had twelve colleges, beisi at It
a Protestant country. There was a petition from of the Wesleyans, which a ere supported peten,
Whitby which made use of the harshest terms with re- annual expense of twenty-four thousand ,hat b,le
'elethodis.opetk
Bard to Maynooth, which they considered was especially There could be no doubt, in acting properly' ," n, it,"4,
detrimental to the people of Ireland. There was also a ought to proceed upon the principle of restituttn sir
petition from Lancaster, presented by the Chairman of had heard, the other night, the speech of the IRO
their Committees (Mr. Greene), which stated that no Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for trios/
concessions which could be made would satisfy the Depariment, and he could only regret its coneliase °
Roman Catholics of Ireland. There was also a petition (Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman then wendi r°s
presented by the Hon. Member for Kent, which stated lung disquisition on the grievances of Ireland' st
ova
that the doctrines of the Church of Rome were unsocial, eluded by expressing a hope that these wreeVest 01,0,
unchristian, and idolatrous, and inconsistent, and irre. cre long be redressed. He believed, from we,Reewid
concilable with the genuine doctrines of the Gospel. taken place, that it was clearl shown that r),7 Wen"
There was also a petition from Elein which he pre- weakness was Ireland's strength. The ltigpflesitfr
seated himself, and which stated that the petitioners re- Gentleman oppesite had. the advantage of an °Prt pis°,..
garded as high treason against heaven, to apply the which would assist him in carrying out his press him ',
revenues of a Protestant country to the education of —(heer, hear.) They were ready to support oiesri
a Popish priesthood.—(flear, In ar.) Now, he would carrying out even a more comprehensive Islan're, Itigh,
ask, in what other country in the world would it be —and, therefore, he (Mr. Ward) called upon. One newts
possible to find one half of the popu'ation of a country lion. Baronet to reconcile his differences with tle:Pr Oh'
apple ing such language to the other half, because they supported him on this great question, and to con°
were eel a different opinion? If they saw such divisions the motion which he (Mr. Ward) now madeo aid
elsewhere, should they not at once conclude that they .
Captain BERKELEY had great pleasure ill sec° sigbc
could have but the same result which it was seen they the 3
had in Switzerland. lie could only say, if the un- the motion. He had voted for the measure of befit
charitable language he had quoted, came recommended Hon. Baronet, but he had also voted (ever since ,nciple
by the sanction of the liturgy, the homilies, and the ar- the honour of a seat in Parliament) for the P,rgii eor')
tick sof the Protestant Church, that Church was which was involved in the present motions-tee- tar)'
anything but a blessing to the country over which .,.. i• OP
it ruled.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") He It would not be consistent with his past rates
otieo,
would give his 'Hon. Friend the Member for Dun- conduct, if he did not support the present 031.00%
garvon some specimens of the sort of eloquence, and of whether or not he was allowed the honour- of o°o.o
some of the notions which were most rife at these Inr,et. it. He had voted for the appropriation'clatise i° OA
ings, and for these they must go to the Evangelical and lie thought mode
clergymen, and not to the Dissenters, for the peculiar Friend the Member for Sheffield was the most resst4iar
expressions by which the feelings of the party were elle' e,
evinced. At these saturnalia—for he could call them and perfect in which the grant could be stiPeeeeecej
nothing else—an Hon. Member of that House had re- (Hear, hear.) The Irish church wen the great greoele
of Ireland. It had been declared such by all thee-, he'
leered to Mr. M‘Neile, of Liverpool, as a highly respect- friends of Ireland for the last century, and t'd' ja th
able sample of Christian cletge men ; and yet Mr. friends of the Protestant religion had concurrereeell A
M'Neile, in a speech the other day to the Operative opinion. The Honourable Member thea_sseeable
Conservatives of that town, had stated that if they sane- to the address of ten thousand persons, n",, eolls
tioned the additional grant to Mnenooth, they might as at Mallow, to the Marquis of Normau'vee hug
well found a college for theft or adultery, and in his ratulating that nobleman upon the results
opinion the difference betwem the ministers of the g Lord-Lieutenant' sto
Roman Catholic Church and the Jesuits was nothing governmentasked of the country as pee „
them, how could Gentlemen opposite c"reentreft
more or less than the difference between a highwayman
(ciofneiliate Ireland when they had deprived that
_;eliee
and a pickpocket. And yet the Right Hon. Gentleman
the._ Member for Perthshire (Mr. F. Mauls) had moved so good a Governor ?—(Hear, hear.) lie belt
the thanks of the meeting last night at Exeter that, in supporting the present motion, he was_ cher°
trongwthhiechbehs ie
nterests of f the country, and of the
Hall. He had been too wise to hamper him,: th°
self with any resolution which involved a principle, , e to
yet, by giving his silent assent to those which had keen Sir THOS. FREMANTLE said that in objecting tier
passed, he had become a party to all which had trans- amendment, he felt called upon to respect the conststed oe
Fired. At that meeting, it had been unblushingly the Hon. Gentleman the Member for Sheffield, whohBo4 ad,
stated that this grant to Maynooth was only putting an hered to his own views upon this question, through g° IP°
additional weapon into the hands of the Popish priests, port and thrmigh evil report.—(Hear, hear.) The fin'
and they objected to it under the supposition, as they Member had lost no opportunityomfotpiuontt—in(gLofourdward tbel'het
stated, that the increase of knowledge would only tend cii le embodied an th present cheers ):04,19
to made bad men worse.—(Great laughter.) The mi- the present occasion was moo*. inopportune. 901
The Fri' ell
ulster of St. Mary's Chapel, Reading, had stated that was too important to be discussed upon the question of a0:')
either Sir Robert Peel had never read his Bible, or if he
had read it, he did not understand it ; or if lie had un- grant of 26,000/.—(Cries of "Hear, hear," and "49.4 tslre
dersteod it, he did not believe it.—(Laughter.) - Such Many Gentlemen who were opposed to the grant rnirr ter
were some of' the statements by which these hoe. Gen- this opportunity of voting with the Hon. Ale°3be.eyias
tlemen were in the habit of expressing their opinions on the purpose of defeating the Government. But, iti 'ones,'
their Christian fellow-subjects. At a meeting the other this, he (Sir T. Fremantle) was bound to admit till see!
clay at Hertford, which hail been attended by the Rev, and consideration with which the Hon. Gentleman ,are see n
Mr. Bickersiatf, Mr. holling, "and others, Mr. Bicker- since the debate was opened.—(Hear, hear.) oir"neeenets
staff had not been ashamed to assert the exploded do c' other inconveteenses connected with the Hon. 1-1 anoth'd
trine that Roman Catholics kept Co faith with heretics, motion—forC instance, if this motion were carriee _ 0,0,0
and stated that there was nothing which in any way funds
smoitutee would be necessary to vote the particVll634.7,
justified this fraternization with the Roman Catholics in Honoursthlaer.Guelnetclhenithaengrant should be supplied. luonoodiii;
defeated the Ministry by Pr re sgetee
God's word. He did not hesitate to compare this fift
y this principle. In 1835 the Ministry wee a lee
years' grant to the College of Maynooth to Herod's defeated upon it.—( Hear, hear.) In 1836 e," easel
oath, and as that oath led to murder, and there was a the measures. which included the principle °t „,;;t-ol3l'
prior command in the Scriptures which prohibited tnur- Priation, were rejected. But in 1838, an autr-Fappr°,..
der, so he should say that if there was a contract with tell was obliged to be carried, by the abandon nren,t_._° ber 119'
Maynooth, that contract ought to be broken, inasmuch priation. He woult. therefore put it to the Hen. Ain. ea'
as the principles taught were equally prohibited by the
t Sheffield, whether he would hazard the overthrow or
orest-ioe (44
sure now before the House, by pressino- again the i,isters $1:11
Sir Robert Peel had been met by a beguiling harlot, appropriation. which had hitherto been'fatal to
Gentlemanlqi th,_
with her soft words and smooth speeches,hall wilt, to measures ?—(Hear, hear.) The. Hon. .r.,,sh. IP
forced proceeded to quote from a speech made by Lord Mr' ernstle°
him to abandon all his principles—(Laughter)—and abide opposition to the appropriation principle. The apPrur ,I 0:
language such principleby
as that, it was by sentiments-nuch as these—sentiments much better grounds now. He quoted this inconsiste,,rese°
and language which he felt bolted to denounce as false,
detestable, and blasphemous—that these persons .endea show that the same arguments would do for tat the re to
moment. Nothing could be more dangerous thems meestle i°-
vourcd to excite hostility and contir,utd dissen,', to tack the appropriation principle to it. The prine'rroyerti
And vet it was at this very meetingthatms* valved the appropriation of the whole of the Church Per is
Member of that House took the chair.--(Hea Aa in Ireland ; and by taking e 6,0001. out of it, for that; Per
iS
Member whose private character was in the ' highestr.)
degree estimable, but who, like others who were Members they othuelrdpbuerpoa they would N iolate their principles,
mall 001::
toe. thefil.iefuarturLscrolsidgeatiownouhow u
Id call GP° t
would
should take.—(