The Sun.
London, England, 1829-02-20 00:00:00

THE DUNALLY PEERAGE.

The Earl of SHAFTESBURY uuderstood that the
papers had not arrived from Ireland in the matter of the
Dunally peerage. He therefore moved the adjournment of
the Committee of Privileges from Monday to Tuesday next.
The Earl of FALMOUTH presented a petition from the
inhabitants of Tetthering in Gornwall, and several others,
against the Catholic Claims.
The Earl of LONGFORD presented a petition from
the Protestant Dissenters of a parish in the county of
Limerick, against further concessions and the Subletting
Act.

The Earl of CARLISLE presented a petition from
Catholics, in a parish in Galway, in favour of the Catholics.
The Marquis of DOWNSHIRE presented a petition
from a Mr. Andrew Watson, calling himself an Alder-
man of Limerick, which stated that the petitioner had
been an officer of the Brunswick Club; that be was now
75 years of age ; that up to this period he had been a very
strong opposer of Emancipation; that this bad been with

a view to please his Majesty's Government and ac-
cord with their opinions (Much laughter) ; that as
the sentiments of the Government had now changed, he
he heartily coincided in their sentiments, and hoped the
change in his conduct would not be considered a dereliction
of duty. (Repeated laughter.) The Noble Marquis col-
lected from the petition, that this old gentleman was now
in favour of granting power ts the Roman Catholic.
Lord LIMERICK could bear testiniony to the strong
opposition this gentleman had then to the Catholic Claims.
He doubted much whether this was really the petition of
the person it purported to be from—he was much more
inclined to consider it a hoax.—(Laughter.)
Lord KING observed that if it were a hoax, and he
had been the hoaxer, he should have put the petition into the
hands of a new convert, for then the hoax would have
told with double force. It was a very common thing for
some persons to change their opinions with the change of
opinions of Ministers : this only sheaved the Government
to be composed of good apostles, and he had no doubt that
the present apostles would gain many converts.
The Marquis of DOWNSHIRE washed his hands of
any thing to do with this petition as a hoax. He believed
that a very great portion of the community were now
favourable to the granting of relief to the Roman Catlin-
lies. The Noble Marquis then presented half a dozen peti-
tions from other places to the same effect.
_ .

. _
Lord HOLLAND presented 13 petitions, 12 of which
were from Protestant Dissenters of this country and the
others from Roman Catholics in different parts of Ireland,
praying their Lordships to take into consideration the laws
affecting Catholics, with the view of removing their civil and
religion. liberties. The first petition was from a body of
men well known to the Government of the country, the
Dissenting members of the three denominations in and ad-
joining this metropolis. It was true they were invested with
no authority from their Lordships's bar, that they had no
Corporate Seal, no office of emslument under the Govern-
ment, nor any claim to attention except what their piety
and learning entitled them to. That they were the last set
of men who would wish the Noble Lord to assign to them
any power with which they were not invested. Yet
they were a class of persons who had been long recognised
by the Government of this country, and were the suc-
cessors of those who had negotiated with Mr. Lecke him-
self, respecting the Toleration Act, which the Noble Lord
looked upon as the key stone which was now
about shortly to be completed. They had ever since
beeen noticed for their loyal feeelings and warm
iffaastons to the personages who had sat upon the
British Throne. Without drawing any thing like an in-
vidious comparison, there was no class of persons in this
country to whom his Majesty's family were more deeply
indebted for the possession of their crown, than the Pro-
testant Dissenters. This had ever been demonstrated as
the feelings of the House of Brunswick. The
Noble Lord believed that the Protestant Dissenters
of this country did not amount to less than three millions
and a half, exclusive of the Westleyans and another sect.
They were always the most keen in detecting the approach
of any thing like civil or ecclesiastical tyranny, and
the firmest to oppose it.—(Hear.)—When the Noble
Lord found this set of men petitioning their Lordships
to extend civil and religious liberty to all men, and particu-
larly to the Catholics; if he wanted encouragement this
above all things would stimulate him to support their
Claims. The body ;rout which the petition immediately
came was composed of 91 persons, 63 of whom had
signed it. One of the other petitions was from the
ancient corporation of Nottingham, to which the Noble
Lord was himself connected, and the circumstances
attending which would prove be' believed that the
inferences drawn by c Noble Duke (Newcastle)
from the petitions that he had presented that the greater
portion of the • inhabitants of that part of the county
were against Emancipation was decidedly erroneous ; they
avoided the making continents upon the reports of the man-
ner in which the signatures had been got to a number
of the petitions, which had alre-ady been presented from
the North of England, against affording relief to the
Roman Catholics.

Lord GOSFORD presented six petitions from the Ca-
tholics of parishes in favour of Emancipation ; also four
petitions against the Vestry, and seven for a repeal of the
Sub-letting Act

The House adjourned till Monday.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Mr. ESTCOURT moved for a new Writ for the Uni •
versity of Oxford; in the room of the Right Honourable
Mr. Secretary Peel, who had accepted the Stewardship of
the Chiltern Hundreds.

General GASCOYNE said th it he highly approved of
the course the Right Hon. Gentleman hid pursued in this
respect, however he might differ with him in his conduct
upon the question which had led to the present motion.
The Rt. lion. Gent. by the course he was pursuing, give
the University the opportunity of confirming the resolution
they had already come to, and so far he had acted with
great fairness to his constituents and with credit to him-
self. Ile trusted that all those who had similarly changed
their sentiments, would afford their constituents a similar
orportunity, fir if they did not, they must certainly fall
in political estimation, and also in their own. He hoped
they would act with fairness towards those whom they re-
presented, and give them an opportunity of expressing
their sentiment) upon such gross apostacy. Having felt
the inspiration of the new light which had induced them
suddenly to alter their opinions, they were still inclined to
suppose, that the day of account was far distant, but he be-
lieved that the day of retribution for political apostasy' was
nut so far distant as they imagined, and that they would
then experience the indignation of their constituents. It
was not usual to suffer the intercourse of private friendship
to interfere with political feelings, but he considered that
gentleman who behaved with political inconsistency must
be lessened in private estimation. He was aware that
many persons had sacrificed consistency to the desire of
place, but for his part, he thought that consistency
should no more be placed in competition with place than
glass with marble. He would suggest to such lion. Gen-
tlemen to consider how their conduct would be judged of
hereafter, and also to consider that the day of retribution
was not so far off as they might imagine.
Mr. HOBHOUSE said he believed that it was not usual
to speak upon such motions as that before the House, but no
doubt the gallant General felt himself justified in the course
he had adopted. He, as well :as the gallant General,
approved of the course pursucd by the Right lion. Gen-
tleman in giving to his constituents an opportunity of re-
considering that great question. Ile for one did not think
that the connection could be drawn too close between the
constituents and the Representative, for he always advo-
cated the great principle of Parliamentary Reform. After
the speech of the gallant General, he had a right to ask
him for his vote should the question of Parliamentary Re-
form ever come before the House, at least if the gallant
General maintained that consistency of which he professed
himself as the admirer. As for Political Apostasy', he
thought the term scarcely deserved by that Right Hon.
Gentleman or by those who had adopted the same course
as he had done.—(Hear, hear.)--The time, he had no
doubt, would ere long come, when the Gallant General
would be convinced, that his fears for his dear country
would be totally unfounded. Time House, the country,
c‘o
.‘onivi
etehdi I,lk of
that
great
those w.h question riso
dt
riskedt the
r n
their they
et ia
rl u
avootelrd le
fori
the time being, and the loss of the good opinion of their
constituents, by panfully coming forward in such a crisis,
were deserving of the greatest approbation.—(Hear.)
The new Writ was then ordered.
Alden man Wool) obtained leave to bring in a Bill rela-
tive to the removal of Smithfield Market.

Mr. CHARLES PALLMER presented :a petition from
the West India Dock Company, to amend some part of
their Act, also a petition respecting the intended new
Royal Clarence Bridge, from Lambeth to the Horseferry-
road.

Mr. BYNG presented a petition from the Indepenslant
Gas Company.
Sir THOS. BARING brought in a Bill to amend the
Stratford and Bow Select Vestry Acts. Read a first time.
Mr. M. A. TAYLOR presented a petition from the
Protestant Dissenters of South Shields, in favour of Ca-
tholic Emancipation.
Sir J. COTTERELL presented a petition from the
Archdeacon and Clergy of the County of Ilerefioll, against
the Catholic claims ; also a similar petition from the Dean
and Chapter of the Cathedral Church of Hereford.
Mr. VILLIERS STUART presented fifteen petitions
from 'parishes in the County of Waterford, in favour of
Catholic Emancipation.
Mr. CHARLES PALLMER in presenting a petition

Mr. ALDISIIMAN ATKINS presented a petition front
the Governors:a St. Thomas's Hospital, relative to the
regulations thereof. •
Mr. ASHURST rocked a petition from the Mayor
and Corporation of Oxford, against the Catholics.
Mr. DUNCOMBE presented similar petitions from twm
parishes in the county of York.
Lord E. SOMERSET presented similar petitions front
two parishes in the county of Gloucester.
Mr. F. WEST presented a similar, petition from Den-
bigh.
Mr. DICKENSON presented a similar petition from
Castle Carey.

Mr. G. BANKES presented a similar petition from
Burton-upon-Trent. It came from a part Of the country
with which he had no local acquaintance; but he could
say, upon good foundation, that the' petitioners were all
respectable householders of that town, and that among
that class the majority were sixty to one against the Ca-
tholics.
Mr. LAMB presented a petition from Dungnrvon in
favour of the Catholics.

Mr. CAREIV presented similar petitions from St.
Mary's, and other parishes, in the County of New Ross.
Mr. SPRING RICE moved for leave to bring in a
Bill relative to the rights of executors.
Mr. CALCRAFT presented a petition from Wareham,
in favour of the Catholics.

Mr. G. MOORE presented several petitions from dif-
ferent parishes in „Ireland against the Catholics. He stated
that they were signed by persons of the first respectability,
including many of the Nobility.
Colonel CUST presented a similar petition from a parish
iu Chester.

Lord PALMERSTON presented three petitions in fa-
vour of the Catholics.

Mr. W. PEEL brought up a report relative to the
Courts of Laws.

Tke Order for the Day for the House to resolve itself
into a Committee of Supply, on the motion of the Char.-
cellor of the Exchequer, was then read.

On the question that the Speaker da leave the Chair',
Mr. AIABERLY rose and begged to offer to the
House some observations relative to the separate branches
of the public service, and to the Committee that was ap-
pointed last Session for the purpose of injuiring into the
revenue and expenditure of the country. lie meant the
Finance Committee. He had a high opinion of those
Committees, and it appeared that many other Members
had held the same view, as Committees had been appointed
in the years 1788, 1796, 1817, and 1829. Those
Committees, lie believed, had pmduced beneficial results to
the country, and it was a matter of great surprise to hint
that the one of last Session had been suffered to terminate,
he might say, ad libitum. Every one must be convinced
of the benefit of such a measure. The Committee Was
appointed to examine into, and report upon every one of
the great branches of the expenditure and revenue of
the country. It was generally known at the time of a}-
pointing that Committee, that it was impossible for the
members of it to thoroughly examine in time for a Report
for the same Session, into all the great branches necessary
to be investigated. It was, therefore determined they should
confine their labours to two or three of the moat important
branches, that the House might have an oppertunity of
ascertaining Low great the advantages of the result may
have been. The result was satisfactory, and yet the Com •
tnittee was suffered to discontinue. To prove that it was
the 4!,inion of the Right lion. Secretary of State that
these Committees were advantageous, lie hoped the House
would excuse him, if he referred to the sentiments
of the Right lion. Gentleman, which he expressed on the
appointment of the Finance Committee. He then said that

he was very anxious this Committee should be established,
and he should nut have recommended it to the House, had
he not had a conviction that its appointment would be bene-
ficial to the country. He (Mr. Moberly) had then sto ed
that he was convinced the time bad arrived, when it was
necessary to look fully and firmly into the state of the
Finances—when it would be hopeless to think of deceiving
people and the country would receive the must incalculable
advantage from the appointment of this Committee. The
lion. Gentleman proceeded to comment on the former Re-
ports delivered in the Finance Committee, and contended
they con tained much in formation. ThcCon:tnitteehadshown
that there was plenty of bu,iness to employ them for ouc or
two years more. Ile saw no reason why a Cnntnittee
that had laboured as this had done should he put an cod tc..
It was but justice to the Members comprising it, and to
the public in genera, that it should be continued.—
The Honourable Gentleman further alluded to the re-
duction meditated by the Committee in the Army
and Navy. (Here the impatience of the House be-
came so great the Speaker called ts order.) The Ho-
nourable .Momber said, that this was the first moment the
finances of the country had been touched on this Session ;
but as the interest of the one great question absorbed all
others, that if it was the pleasure of the House, he would
stop. [LEFT SPEAKING.]

SPORTING INTELLIGENCE.

TATTERSALL'S.

The odds have not undergone any change of importance
since our last report. The principal feature in yesterday's
business was a paradoxical movement of Luse, who ad-
vanced a point for the Derby, and receded in the same de-
gree for the Oaks. The Duke of Grafton's Burman was
in pretty general request for the Riddlesn•orth ; he is spoken
of as a colt of much promise, and his party seem to re-
gret that he is not in the Derby.

RID DLESWORTH.
3 to 1 agst Mr. Batson's Luse filly (taken)
4 to 1 agst Duke of Grafton's Burman
7 to 1 agst Mr. Hunter's Canvass colt
S to 1 agst Duke of Rutland's Brother to Muses
S to 1 agst Lord Exeter's Augusta colt
0 to I agst Morel (taken)
DERBY.
9 to I agst Lord G. Cavendish's Espagnolle c. (taken)
12 to 1 agst Mr. Hunter's Canvass colt
1:3 to 1 agst Mr. Batson's Luss filly
3 to 1 agst Lord Setion's Morris Dancer
14 to 1 agst His Majesty's Electress colt (taken)
16 to 1 agst Duke of Rutland's Br. to Moses
16 to 1 agst Lord Sligo's Prince Eugene
1$ to 1 agst Lord Jerrey's Will-o'-the-wisp
20 to 1 agst Lord Exeter's Augusta colt
Oafs.
8 to 1 agst Lord Exeter's Green Mantle
7 to 1 agst Lord Exeter's Varna
9 to 1 agst Mr. Batson's Lusa filly
11 to 1 agst Mr. Ridsdale's Clotilde
15 to 1 agst Lord Sligo's Vat

HUNTING INTELLIGENCE.
APPOINTMENTS FOR THE ENSUING WEEK.
The Blackmoor Vale Hounds, on Tuesday, at Leigh
Common, near Wincanton; and Friday, at Cherton Wood
—at half past ten.
• Mr. Farquharson's Hounds, on Monday, at Short Wood ;
and Tuesday, at Witherstone.
The Cadbury Harriers, on Tuesday, at Charlton Hare-
•orne ; and Thursday, at Cueklington.
The East Sussex Hounds, on Monday, at \\'pidore
iiII ; Thursday, at Cook's-bridge ; and Saturday, at the
Bat and Bull, Dicker—at a quarter before eleven.
The Worcestershire Fox-hounds, on Wednesday, at
Crow's Nest Wood ; and Friday, at the fourth mile-stone
on the London-road—at half-past ten.
The Brighton Harriers, on Monday, at Patcham ; Wed-
nesday, near the Race Course ; and Friday, at tLe Dyke—
at half-past ten.
The Brookside 'harriers will continue to meet every
Monday, at Newmarket ; Wednesday, at the Lewes It
Course ; and Friday, at Telleseumbe t l Zdf- irl.t ten.
Mr. Dansey's Hounds, on Monday, at Westhide ViN,ge ;
Thursday, at Berrington ; and tiaturd ty, at New nli ,ut
Turnpike...at WI.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

was then made to create a riot, and in consequence a por-
tion of the names was torn off the petition, upon which
the Mayor requested the gentlemen who superintended the
signing of the petition to withdraw it, and begged that it
might he stated, if necessary, that it had been done at his
reepeest, to prevent any further disturbance. Having said
thus much, he would read the petition to their Lordships;
but he could not do so without expressing once more to the
Noble Duke (Wellington) and to his Noble and Right Hon.
Colleagues, his utmost confidence in them, and without
assuring them that they might depend upon his most
zealous exertion. in support of the view which they had
taken, and which they had stated to Parliament in the
most candid manner. At the same time he wished tee rte-
mark apon the great necessity there Wet iliit a qilettion of
this nature ehoold be fairly niid Folly discussed, and he
therefore begged to nnkreat the House, and more especially
the Rev. Bench of Bishops, in the same reepectful manner
as hn had done in the course of the previous Ses-
sion, on the occasion of the repeal of the Test
and Corporation Acts, to give him ate opporttittity of
bearing his testimony to the tome Wen n. ri ondetation as
had been displayed on thet leol`Conibto As to those Noble
Lords who mnitetained an opinion contrary to his on this
en.b!ent, be gave them full credit for the sincerity of their
opinion ; but he must be allowed to observe, that i^ '.lnlltg
what they believed to be their duty on the baasion, they
I ought to consider the way in osh!cl's they were to perform
that duty, and not tutiprite that by alarming the public
they could ptsetitke any good. Argument alone in such a
Cane tettild be the right mode of proceeding, while, ley
Sdolent speeches being made in that House, and going forth
from that house to the public, a ferment would he pro-
duced, the effeet of which no one could foresee.—(Hear.)
—lle could not help speaking strongly on this point, he-
satire he had heard it explained by a Noble Lord (Col-
chester) in the course of his speech, that this measure
would endanger the succession of his family to the Crown.
It had been said that the admission of the Catholics to
power would destroy the right of the House of Brunswick
to the Throne. Good God ! could any one believe in
such a doctrine ?—( Hear, hear.)—He should certainly
have taken the opportunity of answering such an insinua-
tion on an an earlier occasion, had not the way in which a
Noble Earl (Grey) and a Noble Baron (Holland) an-
swered it rendered it useless fur him to attempt it, as he
could have only repeated what they had said.—(Hear.)—
Without, therefore, saying anything further on the subject,
he flung away the opinion, because he knew it to be incor-
rect.--(Hear.)—With respect to anything further that had
been alleged in opposition to the measure, he would
just point out that the very Noble Lords who urged it
were asking 0!I the right hand and on the left, what really
11,1!3 to be done ; and it would thereftere be as well that
they should wait, and know really what was to be before
them before they decided against it.—( Hear, hear.)—His
Royal Highness then concluded by reading the petition at
length.
The Bishop of BRISTOL said, that having heard what
had just been stated, he could not help thinking that his
Royal Highness had been misinformed ; and as it was also
right that that House should lie made acquainted with the
sentiments of so important and so populous a city as Brie-
to, on this subject, he would trouble their Lordships with
a few words. Before he quitted Bristol, there was a meet-
ing convened in every parish, with, he believed, hut one
exception ; the general disposition evinced at these meet-
ings was to petition Parliament not to grant any further
concession to the Roman Catholics. In these meetings he
had taken no part whatever, hut, on the contrary, had
cautiously abstained from so doing. One clergyman had
come to him, and stated that his season for not consenting
to a meeting was, because he did not think it right to im-
pose the expence of such a meeting upon the parish. From
the accounts which he had received from his own family,
since his arrival in town, and from the clergy who were
present, it appeared that the spirit which pervaded
it was mist cordial and united. Ile had had the ho-
sour of presenting the petition then agreed upon to
their Lordships, anti had accompanied it with some °beer-
vations as to his own sentiments, which had been unfairly
stated in several of the papers. Previous to the Meeting,
Mr. Daniel, one of the oldest Magistrates of the city of Bris-
tol, stated it to be his wish to collect the sentiments of the
public on the question. At the beginning there was an
attempt to put down the colours which were exhibited at
one of the churches, and which had been displayed as a
general expression of the joy that was felt, with the excep-
tion of a few individuals, who were disappointed on seeing
how hopeless their interference was, and who, on express-
ing their wish to have another Meeting, were told that
they were welcome. In the petition whieli he had pre-
sented, there, were twenty-five pages filled with names,
and he therefore certainly thought that he had a might to
assert that it was most namerously signed. With respect
to the measure itself, there never had been a more unani-
mous feeling entertained, from the apprehension that it
must tend to increase the mischief of Ireland, the present
unhappy state of which was owing to the Catholics, and
that, instead of conferring a benefit on the Empire, it
would be attended by the most ruinous consequence,.
One great result of it would be to put Catholic Members
into Parliament ; and as the Catholic interest would na-
turally be supported by those Members, the effect must ne-
cessarily lie injurious to the Protestant Constitution. For
himself he begged to declare on every point his detesta-
tion of the Roman Catholic religion, and his belief that
the proposed measure was one of the most dangerous
that ever was projected for the safety of the Protestant
Constitution.
His Royal Highness the Duke of SUSSEX, in expla-
nation, begged to remind the Right Rev. Prelate, that, in
the statement he had made, he had purposely abstained
from any reasoning on the subject, because he did not
think that that was the time to talk about it. When the
time came, if the Right Rev. Prelate still wished to battle
the point, he (the Duke) should be very happy, though he
was not very strong in theology, to attempt to be a gla-
diator on the occasion, in the hopes of convincing him.
With respect to the petitions, lie again stated that there
were several names three times repeated ; while such was
far from being the case in the petition which he had the
honour of presenting; or if one name had been intruded,
it had been purposely with the view of producing confu-
sion ; for it was right that he should inform their Lord-
ships, that the very origin of the riot of which he had
'Token. was froth the circumstance of a man coming
where the petition lay for signature, and signing it after
ROMAN CATHOLICS. the object of it had been fully explained to him, and then,
His Royal Highness the Duke of SUSSEX presented a half an hour afterwards, returning and stating that he did
petition from the City of Bristol, in favour of the Rumen not mean to sign the petition ; iu consequence of which
Catholics. The petition was signed by 1700 persons, in a struogle took place, and a portion of the sign itures was
support of the measure which had been proposed by his teen off.
11ejeete's Ministers. There had been no occasion on which, The petition was then ordered to he laid on the table.
he had experienced so much pleasure as in presenting the Hie itoyal Highness the Duke of CUMBERLAND—I
petition lee hell in his hand, as he perfectly agreed in the can aesure youir Lordships that I never felt more unwilling
whole of its contents. lie also thought that the Noble to trespass on your attention than on the present occasion,
Duke at the head of the Administration, and the Adnti- and nothing but the duty I feel I owe to your Lordeleips—
nietration itself, deserved leis Lest thanks for bringing for- to the country—and to myself, could have made use stool
ward a measure which must tend to the tranquillity and up on the present occasion. But, my Lords, I have always
happiness of the empire.—(Hear, hear.)—ln introduchee, been willing to Teak out on this subject, and ever shall be,
this petition to their Lordship., it was his duty to explain for I think it a duty I owe to the country to let it know
how it lead been got up—as well as the pro-tress of it, and what my feelings are. It shall no longer be said that lam
the circumstances under which it appeared ; for, as to the this thing or that, but shall be distinctly known what I am.
number and property of those who had signed it, and as It is piddle', believe me, my Lords, to differ from my Noble
to the order aryl regularity with which it had been con- Friend (the Duke of Wellington), with whom I have so
ducted, it was very conspicuous. It was his intention to long been united ire the bonds of private friendship. But
give their Lordships the facts, without any remarks of his cannot change an opinion which I conscientiously think to
own, because he did not think that that was the fit Upper- be right ; and more especially, my Lords, when the pies-
tunity for doing so ; although he must say, that theme had Lion is, as it undoubtedly is in the present case, neither
been another isetition got up in the same place, in a man- more nor less than this—is England to be a Protestant or
nor which it ought not to have been ; fur although it a popimit. country ?—(Loud cheers. )—For, my Lords,
was admitted :that those who opposed the object for the very moment we admit one Roman Catholic into this
which the Meeting had been called should lee present, House or into the other House of Parliament, I main-
they were not allowed to speak on the occasion ; fain that this becotnes not a Protestant Parliament.—
and when an Amendment was moved, the person (Cheers.)—I have carefully and attentively viewed this
who occupied the Chair on the occasion, said that question every way in the world in which it leas been con-
it was contrary to the purport of the meeting, and !hat it sitiered ; and the result is, that I never will give my con-
therefore could not be put ; it was, however, en their sent either to a Roman Catholic Peer sitting in this House,
power to retire, and meet elsewhere. Now, with respect or to a Roman Catholic Member sitting in the other
to the other petition, it had been stated in another place House, or to any Roman Catholic being a Minister of the
that it had originated from the King's Speech ; but he Crown, or to a Roman Catholic Lord Lieutenant of Ire-
must see., that whoever stated that was in error, as the lend, or to any Roman Catholic holding any office that
d etes would prove. The meeting itself was proposed six may give him power to injure the Established Church. In
weeks prior to the meeting of Parliament, and the requie stating my opinions, I mean to sleeve no hostility to his
sition itself was signed on the sth, the very day on which Majesty's Government. No man can respect the Noble
Perli uncut met—ergo, that petition was not formed upon Duke more than Ido ; and I am quite convinced that in
the King's Speech. With respect to the numbers by doing what he is going to do, it will cost him a great deal
which it was signed, he might observe that these haul been of painful feelieg ; but as an honest man I feel it inv duty
obtained in a curious way; notwithstanding the anxiety to state openly my opinions, and I trust that your Lord-
there was to show a great number of names, still there ships will excuse me fur detaining you while I repelled the
ought to he no one whose name • had been signed to a insinuations which it was necessary I should no longer suf-
former petition of a similar nature; but in the list of the ler to go unnoticed.(Cheers.)
clergy who signed the petition, he understood that they Earl GREY—I rise, my Lords, to say, that having
were signed twice and even three times over, through the heard the Noble and Illustrious Duke state, that while lie
medium of parish meeting... He therefore cautioned their was convinced the immure about to be introduced by his
Lordships how they trusted to the numbers—not that I.e f Majesty's Government would cost them a great deal of
was one of those who objected to the right of petitioning painful feeling, Me felt it his duty, as a conscientious man,
in any sway; but he objected to an impression being to declare that his own opinions on this question are en-
conveyed that the number was so great, when they were I tirely unchanged. Ido sincerely lament that they should
virtually the same persons signior over again. The •beso ; because those measures do appear to nee to be in a
persons who proposed the Amendment, finding that they direction to promote, as I firmly believe, the best and most
. were not permitted to persevere in it, called a meeting vital interests of the country. I did not rise, however,
themselves, and applied to the Mayor for permission my Lords, for this purpose only, for I wish to make some
to place their petition in the Exchange, the other lying remarks on one sentiment which the Noble and Illustrious
for signature in the Guildhall : the Mayor, who, he tun- I Duke expressed. The Noble and Illustrious Duke says,
elerstood, behaved most impartially and honourably, gave ! the question is neither more nor less than this, whether
his consent to this proposition, and in the course of a few I this shall be a Protestant or a Papist country ?—(Cries of
!•-• liourt—in fact, on the Thursday and the Friday—the tome- " Hear, hear," from both sides.) Nov, my Lords, Ido
her of p,idies subscribed aumuited W 1,700, M attcuipt deny this proposition. (Great chem.) if in any possible

HOUSE OF LORDS.-(LAST NIGHT.)

The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat at five minutes
past Five o'clock.
Lord ELDON presented petitions from several parishes
'ii Denbigh, against further eloicessinns, and from other
darts in England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland, to the
amount of sixteen, against Emancipation. In presenting a
4writion from Dromore, Ireland, lie requested that it should
read, bet in consequence of some irregularity it tops
:1:-'rwartis withdrawn. The Nohle Lord stated, that he
had also a petition which he was totally at a loss to know
avhat to do with. It was e, petition signed by ladies,
(Great laughter.)--He should enquire whether, according
to the forms of tire House, ladies were excluded as peti-
tioners. If not, he should certainly do himself the burialr
of presenting their petition.
Lord KING observed, that the petitioners were proba-
bly uld ladies.--(A laugh, )
Lord ELDON observed that he belirved there were
some of them who were advanced in years, but lie had no
doubt that they had much restve good sense and sound
knowledge of the Constiteition of the country than some de-
scendants of Chaneellors.—(Great
Lord TEYNHAM presented a petition 1-, ;n a parish in
Wicklow, in favour of Ernancipatir.rt, to which he professed
Liamif ready to give his support.
The Bishop of EXETER presented petitions from
parishes in Deem, against the Catholic Claims.
The ruts! of LIMERICK presented petitions in (amok'
of that Catholic claims, and praying for a repeal the
Vestry and Sub-letting Acts, from two isatithes in the
county of Limerick. The Noble Lord ..7tlll, he had been
intrusted with a petition from the Corporals of the North
Cork Militia, in reference to the reduction of the Militia
staff, which had been announced from the War-office. He
did nut know whether it would be regular to present this
petition, as the subject was not at present before their
Lordships,
After a few words from Lord anox, the petition was
laid on the table.
'The Duke of RICHMOND moved for a return re-
specting sheep and lamb's wool. The Noble Duke also
presestted a petition against seeding men on board men of
war for smuggling.
Lord VERULAM prostrated a petition from a parish in
,Stafford against Emancipation.
Lord LOR fON presented petitions from Sligo, Lime-
rick, and Donegal, against Concessions,
The Earl of LONGFORD presented a petition from the
Protestants of Dublin, Iri the first place, the petition
prayed the Roman Catholic Association might be sup-
pressed; secondly, that the House should hear in mind the
state of the forty shilling freeholders ; ani in the third place,
it prayed that political concessions should not be made
to the Boman Catholics.—(Hear, hear.)—When the most
distinguished Prelates and Clergymen of Ireland had put
their names to this petition, the Noble Lord could not
but hope that the Honse weuld not grant further
concessions.

The Marquis ni BUTE presented three petitions
from parishes in 'Waterford, in favour of the Catholics.
He could not express the high sense of gratificatio❑ he
felt at the intimation made to this House by his
Majesty. He had expressed his opinions not many months
ago on this subject, and should therefore occupy but very
little time at the present moment. He should be
most happy to see this measure in fxrour of the Catholics,
pass their Lordships' House) with such securities as his
Majesty's Ministers slwaild think fit for the safety of the
Church of England. But he trusted that they would not
ask for securities beyond what the Protestants of this country
had a right to demand, and which every reasonable Roman
Catholic would not willingly grant. He bad heard with
astonishment doubts thrown upon the motives of the Noble
Duke, in bringing forward this measure. Li his judgment,
those motives were the most plain and generous. As far
as support could go, lie felt bound to offer his best assist-
ance, and he tendered his best thanks to the Noble Duke
for the manner in which he had brought forward this
measure,

Lord PLUNKETT presented a petition from 2000 of
the Roman Catholic inhabitants of Cork, praying for the
removal of all civil and religious disabilities.
Lord CLIFDEN presented about a dozen petitions from
the Ronssu Catholics of various parts of Ireland to the sante
effect, and against the Vestry and Sub-letting Acts.
The Marquis of ANGLESEA presented seven petitions
from the Roman Catholics of several parts of Ireland,
praying for unqualified Emancipation, and numerous peti-
tions against the Sub-letting and Vestry Acts.
The Duke of DEVONSHIRE presented four petitions
from parishes in the county of Waterf.rd, in favour of the
Catholic Claims.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented a petition
from the Minister and Protestant Dissenters assembling
for divine worship in a Chapel at Hackney, expressing,
in earnest terms, their gratitude for the intimation
conveyed to the House by his Majesty's speech u 4 in the
subject of Emancipation, and praying for the reino,asl of all
religious disabilities. The Noble MarquLs also presented a
great number of petitions from Roman Catholics of Ire-
land, in favour of their claims.

state of the country, I thought there could be a suspicion-- to the Constitution, 'and that nobody could be called to the
if there was likely to be a chance that the measures about House of Peers, or elected to the House of Commons, hold-
to he proposed by his Majesty's Ministers could have any ing the religious principles of the King, and therefore dis-
tendency to subvert the Protestant Constitution of this pesed to forward his views. Not aide to attack the power
country, I can assure the Noble and Illustrious Dake there of the Throne, in order to effect their purpose, they took
could not be a more firm and determined opponent of them the circuitous course of infringing on the liberties of the
than myself ; but that, I think, is not a true character people. When the Revolution came, which I regard with
of them. In my opinion, they are directly contrary tot as much reverence and affection as the Noble and Learned
the description given of them by the Noble and Illus- Lord does himself, what did the great men concerned in
trious Duke. They are measures, in my opinion, effectual that transaction do? Did they say the laws of Charles the
to the preservation of that very Protestant Constitution Second against the Roman Catholics sloonid he eternal and
which the Noble and Illustrious Duke thinks himself thus Immutable? No; but they did say, with the Caine view
early and ionuediatel caned upon to defend. (Hear, with which they had before passed those laws, when they
!tear.) The question is not whether this shall he a Pro- could carry nothing more effectual, that the possessor of
testant or a Popish country, but whether it shall be a the throne should unalterably be a Protestant. lam sure
divided or a united Empire—(Cheers.)—wiaither we shall I need not ask the Noble Duke at the head of the Govern-
combine all classes of his Majesty's subjects in common ment, whether in the measures he will submit to this
bonds of affection and loyalty to the Crown, or whether House, he intends to interfere with the Protestantism of
we shall convert into Flea thuce independetit spit its in the throne ; it would be ridiculous to put the question.
Irchied, Who, if admitted to the enjoyment of their then, no such intention exists, as it certainly does
eat rights, would be ready to maint-in the Constitution, not, how dots the Noble and Learned Lord's observation
which the Noble and Illustrious Duke supposes they would tipple, when he said that these measures would shake the
subvert, against all its enemies (hear, hear) ; for if ever foundations of the Constitution as it was settled at the Re-
this Empire should be dPiided by civil or religious dissen- volution? The true and essential principle of the Re-
•ionoe thet Will be the point in which our greatness and volution was the same by which, from the beginning of
,'rength, or our decline and weakness, will be manifested : the Constitution, its supporters were always animated,
there would be the danger, in any future contest, that and which bad given the same tincture to every act done
would shake the power or the state and that glotions Con- to uphold it. The Government anti Constitution of this
stitution itself to pieces, which it is the object of its to country are, and have always been, essentially repreaenta-
uphold. I regret deeply that the Noble and Illustrious tive, and the people of every description have a full anti
Duke should feel it necessary to resist, when the country is free right to be represented, unlese they are incapacitated
blessed with peace and prosperity, the happy settlement of by some necessity. Not only hive they a right to seats in
a question which has so long divided the opinions of Par- Parliament, but they are entitled to enjoy all the rights
liament and the country, and which, having so long en- that belonged to them before they entered into society, by
olangered our Constitution, may at last be settled in so coin- which Act they were all confirmed, unless such as were
plete and proper a manner, and with such satisfaction to excepted by a clear necessity, or by some general rule of
all parties. (Cheers.) expediency. It appears to me, that the Noble and Learned
The Earl of ELDON—In discussing this question, I feel Lord has fallen upon the exceptions, and confounded them
great pain in differing, as I do, so widely from many with the principle itself. At the Revolution our ancestors
Noble Lords whom I personally respect ; but I must re- did not feel themselves perfectly safe. They did not re-
peat what I ventured to state on the first day of the Ses- peal the 30th of Charles the Second, because they had
sion—that it is my determined resolution not to relax from not got rid of a Pretender. The Protestant Government
any endeavour I con make to prevent Roman Catholics might have been overturned by a Popish Successor, and
from sitting in this House, or the other House, or holding the time was not yet come, therefore, to repeal those laws.
any executive office of responsibility. I thank the Noble 13itt I ask, if the circumstances of these lairs being so
and Illustrious Duke for the speech which he has ad- retained, and the history of their enactment do not prove
dressed to the House, and in which he has only done that they were so left as an anxious mark of the opi-
justice to the preservation of that principle which has nion of the legislators of that day, that they would
placed iris family on the Throne, at the sante time that he not suffer them to be incorporated with the principles
has refuted those insidious anti scandalous reports which of the Cons"itutien. Where, for example, is the pas-
are abroad.—(Cheers.).—While I entirely agree with the sage in the Bill of Rights which says, that the laws
Noble and Illustrious Duke, I cannot believe that the against the admission of Roman Catholics into Parliament
Noble Lords over the way—the descendants of those shall be perpetual, and that the oaths and declarations shall
Whigs who, at the Revolution, were all for a Protestant still subsist? It declares the possession of the Throne to
King, a Protestant House of Lords, and a Protestant being perpetually and unalterably to a Protestant King ;
House of Commons—these Noble Lords, I say, who are in- but it nowhere says that the oaths and declarations enacted
deed, the issue of the loins of those 'Whigs, lout who dot not to exclude the Roman Catholics shall be continued. I tun
appear to inherit any of the opinions of their ancestors—l not to be told, then, that these measures will go to shake
cannot believe that any of them suppose that I am the foundations of the Constitution ; but I ought not to
of opinion that, through the introduction of one or detain your Lordships with this empty diecnssion, in which
two Roman Catholic Members into the House of Lords, I have only groundless assertions to combat, though I can-
er Commons, or one or two Roman Catholics becoming not refrain from adding one or two facts which will deci-
Ministers of the Crown, we shall exchange a I'ro- sively confirm my statements. Some time after tile Re-
testant Government for a Popish Government ; but thereare volution, at the ninon with Scotland, when it was sought
reasons which, nevertheless, indispose me to such a change, to have these laws of Charles 11. incorporated as an unal-
because I apprehend that, ultimately, it may lead to that tenable part of the law of the kingdom, the proposition
result, which, of all others, I should deprecate. In stat- was rejected, and not rejected in silence; we have the
ing these reasons, I ask the same indulgence which I re- positive reasons and votes of the Scotch Commissioners
turn to those who arc opposed to me, and I shall declare who refused to admit; and the words of the Act of Union
the opinions on which I will act as long as I live ; for I shall are, that the oaths, as then required by law, eheuld
not care, my Lords, to come here again if the Constitution continue until the United Parliament should otherwise
of the country be changq—meaning, as I do, by the word direct. I do not know whether the Noble and
Constitution, what, till a Noble Lord (Holland) opposite Learned Lord is aware of the fact : but if he looks
lately said he thought was not its proper sense, the great into the history of the Union, he will find that the
establishments of the country. I shall not care, I say, if proposition was made in the conferences that took place IT
I never come here again, should this change be effected ; the English Commissioners to the Scotch ; and that pro-
lout Ido maintain, and will declare, that, sooner or later, position was this—that the oaths and declarations required
the admission of Roman Catholics into Parliament and by the 30th of Charles the Second should be taken by the
political power will change the Protestant character of the Members of both Houses of the United Parliament ; but
country and our Protestant Constitution, and gradually the proposition being rejected, the Act of Union runs—that
introduce a Popish Parliament and a Popish Constitution, tht oaths and declarations, as then enjoined, should con-
(cheers.) To all the obloquy and scandal with which I tinue to be taken and subscribed, until the Parliament
have been abused for holding these opinions, ever since I should otherwise provide. Then comes the Union with
was a Member of the House of Commons with the Noble Ireland, and in that Act there is the saute form of expres-
Earl (Grey) opposite, who, i believe, sincerely entertains sion, with some verbal difference, but still requiring the
very honest opinions on this subject, I ant indifferent ; but same oaths to be taken till Parliament should otherwise
when lam told that there is no such thing as a principle direct. Ido hope, therefore, that his Majesty's Ministers,
like that for which I contend in our Constitution, Ido who have in their wisdom resolved to do justice to the
say—and I will maintain it, when we have an opportunity Roman Catholics, will persevere in their intentions, the
to discuss the question fully—that the same principle mere announcement of which has already had the effect of
which brings into this House Roman Catholic Members, so disarming the angry feelings that existed in Ireland, and
must lead to consequences which the Noble Lords over the of inducing the Roman Catholics at once to retire from
way will not believe to be possible. That is my honest their follies mote readily by one single act of justice and
and sincere opinion, and I shall act on it, perfectly care- tenderness, than by all the severity of the penal code, if it
less what may be the opinion of other Noble Lords. I were again revived. They have shown their anxiety to
owe it in duty to the House, standing in this place, to de- bow in submission to the intentions held out by the Legis-
clare, that ass long as I can I will struggle for the continu- lature, and Ido trust that the Noble Duke, before even the
ance of that Constitution which was settled at the Ream- short period has elapsed which will intervene between this
lotion of 1688, and by which settlement alone the family moment and the consummation of that great measure, will
now reigning came to time Throne. have an opportunity of seeing how directly it will tend to
Lord PLUNKETT—If the Noble and Learned Lord consolidate the strength and glory, and the safety and pros-
who had just sat down felt considerable pain in stating lois perity of the empire —(Great cheering.)
opinions on the very important topic which has been in- The Earl of ELDON—It may he satisfactory to some
traduced in the course of this discussion, I alma sure your of your Lordships if I state now, that when the question
Lordships will readily believe that I must feel a similar de- becomes duly the subject of discussion, I intend to grapple
gree of pain and embarrassment in offering my opinion in with the Noble and Learned Lord who has just spoken,
opposition to those of the Noble and Learned Lord. But and with his Nottle Friend who site beside him.
as he has made an assertion regarding the Constitution, Lord REDESDALE was still decidedly opposed to any
from which I wholly dissent—for a mere assertion it is, and innovations on the Constitution in favour of the Roman
not an argument—and though this is not the proper time Catholic., nor could he conceive how a Protestant King
to argue it, yet I think that in justice to that cause I have could govern the country surrounded by advisers, who were
so long advocated, lam bound respectfully, but firmly and not only not Protestants, but adverse to the Protestant re-
positively, and as a lawyer, not unacquainted with the ligion. It was impossible that in such circumstances the
Constitution, though Ido not presume to vie in point of King could by himself protect the Protestant Constitution
authority with the Noble anti Learned Lord, to give as of the country. What had passed within a few years must
direct a contradiction to What be has stated as it is possible be sufficient to convince their Lordships that no more im-
for me to do, within the limits of Parliamentary usage. portant principle could exist, than that the King's Mini-
The Noble and Learned Lord, in following the Noble Earl liters should lie Protestants as well as the King himself ; for
(Grey), re-asserted what the Noble and Illustrious Duke the King could not govern without the assistance of his
before asserted, namely, that the question is, whether our Ministers, as he did every thing by others, and nothing
Constitution shall remain Protestant, or become Popish ? himself. Was it tribe supposed that the King would long
He assumes, or takes it for granted, that the carrying of act as a Protestant King should, when all hie advisers
this question necessarily leads to the subversion ot' our Prom- might be urging him to the violation of the Protestant
testant Constitution. Now lam as firmly and as warmly Constitution ? He was astonished that any Noble Lord
a friend to that Constitution as the Noble and Learned could hold such language as lie had beard in the discussion
Lord himself; and I take on myself to say—though I int- of this question. With respect to conciliation, he would
pute no motives to those who differ with me—that those e:y, it had no greater friend than himself. The danger
are the worst advocates of that Protestant Constitution who of admitting Roman Catholics into Parliament certainly
affect to rest it on any basis inconsistent with the rights of depended on their number. If, for example, the entire
any portion of the people.—(Cheers.)—So much it was House of Commons were composed of Roman Catholics,
necessary for the to say ; and 1 join cordially in the thanks could arty one doubt that the King 'inlet submit to
which have from this side of the House been offered to the whatever such a Howe: might please to dictate ? If all
Noble Duke at the head of the Government, and in gra- the Members of that Howie were Roman Catholics,
titude to the Throne fur the gracious Message delivered the consequence would be exactly the saute ; and
to both Houses of Parliament ; but when 1 find that so they would if all the King's Ministers were Roman
resistance is to be made to these Claims on the wound that Cetholies. This was a question of degree : and FO far lie
the concession is contras): to the principles that placed the was MA unwilling to concur with the advocates of conces-
House of Brunswick on the Throne ; and when I hear it sion, if they could render it safe. Ile was not so adverse
asserted seal reasserted, in a variety of assertion, but with to what might be proposed, but the difficulty was to make
no variety of argument certainly (a laugh)—when I hear it so ; fur be feared that if once they allowed admission to
it, I say, asserted on the one hand, and refuted on the the followers of the Roman Catholic religion into both
other, that the principles established at the Revelation are Houses of Parliament, and also that all the advisers of the
in danger, I cannot help asking your Lordships, by whom Crown might be 11.01111 th Catholics, nothing could save
are the glorious principles of the Revolution now sought our Protestant Constitution from destruction ; for it seemed
to be impugned—(elleo rs) ?—a undertake to shemv, by the to him the most ridiculous idea that ever entered the head
distinct proofs of history, by-reference to the Records of of man, that the Roman Catholics should support Pro-
Parliament, that no principles of the kind asserted by the testantism. He considered the Acts of Union as funda-
Noble and Learned Lord (Eldon), or in any degree re- mental laws, and they both stipulated that the Church of
eembling them in analogy, were established at that time; langlend, the Church of Scotland, anti the Church of lre-
and that the only principle then established was, that there land, should be Protestant ; but he desired to know how
should be a Protestant King always on the Throne of these fuese great national compacts could be kept, if all the Mem-
realms. That was the only principle, I maintain, estah- bows of Parliament and all the King's Ministers might be
fished at the Revolution; and there was nothing then done Roman Cattolics ? If, indeed, means could he found to
as the Noble and Learned Ler.l thinks, to exclude Roman prevent the baneful influence of the Roman Catholic
Catholics from sitting in Parliament, or from holding high Religion frole controuling the Legislature, then it might
offices. It was not the presence of Roman Catholics in become a ii tter of prudence to admit thetn to power
this Hottee, or in the other, that was the cause of the and to Parlieruent ; but as long as no restrictions of this
Revolution, hut the prevalence of bad men and load mea- nature emalti be discovered, it was impossible to admit
sores._(Cheers.)—TheAct for'ex,cludieg Roman Catholics them, withoet sacrificing the Protestantism of the Coneti-
was passed in the reign of Charles IL ;it seas the offspring tutioon, as it had existed since the Revolution. The Noble
of falsehood, and directed to a different purpose ; that Act and Learned Lord who had last spoke, had admitted that
was the 30th of Charles the Second ; it was the work of the object then was, to place a Protestant Kin always on
Titus Oates, and not of the Revolution—(cheers)—it was the Throne, in order that he might preserve the Protes-
brought in and founded expressly on the now repudiated tent Establishment in Church and State. But when
and rejected fabrication of that infamous man regarding time Parliament admitted persona of a different persuasion, the
Popish Plot. So much for the origin of that Act, which question was, whether it should be Protestant or not. Any
it is a disgrace to the Revolution to say, is one of the lases admission of the Ronnon Catholics would be a direct in-
of the Revolution. I will say further, with respect to the fringement of the principle which was fully established at
Brunswick Clubs—a most improper name I must remerk the Revolution. Ile said so because it was the effect of
lay the way, as it seems to the highly indecorous to connect that event to continue the laws enacted in consequence of
the name of the reigning family with:any purposes of faction, the apoltacy of Charles the Second and James the Second ;
that if the beginners of these Clubs bad known what they the one a concealed Papist, the other an avowed Apostate.
were doing, they ought to have called them Titus Oates He did not know what were the measures to be proposed ;
Club.. So much, my Lords, for the origin of these sacred but if they resembled what had been stated by sonic
laws which we have often been told were passed at the Noble Lords, there was an end of the Constitutional
Revolution to secure the Protestantism of the Constitution. principle which had made this country a Protestant
What, then, my Lords, let us inquire, was the nature or kingdom.
object of that Act, awl what were the mischiefs to be re- Earl BATHURST rose to order. Their Lordship
medied ? There was then an apprehension of a Popish had been for some time engaged in discussion without any
successor, and the person on the Throne was suspected to question before them, and he begged them to consider how
be a Papist, which, in fact, he was, in the most thlious such a practice would lead them into irregularities. All
sense of the word. That Act would not have been passed, that bad been said might have been very proper if a peti-
if the Bill of Exclusion against the Duke of York could tion had been presented respecting the further considera-
have been carried ; butt as it was known that that Bill would tion of the Catholic Claims; but all that had passed was
never be passed, the other was substituted, as the right and actually disorderly.
perfect remedy could not be applied. That was the origin The Duke of WELLINGTON rose to address the
of the exclusion of the Roman Catholics. It was because House, but sat down without saving any thing.
time Parliament of that day could not trust the King The LORD CHANCELLOR—I think, my Lords, that
in possession of the Throne, that they, boy that Act, 8C- I ant calicd on to make an apology to your Lordships for
cured that 119 Imo could be paand withvut perfect Itty , the course pf prgmijap Which hove pav QUfoethe last

attentive to matters of this kind held from the, time w
he hitnself had been taught his duty, to the present, be
was not aware that a similar instance had occurred. He
could not, however, agree with the Noble and Learned
Lord tint the liouse was out of ordtr. Without paying
untneaniog compliments, he must speak with the utmost
possible respect of the Noble and Illustrious Duke who pre-
sented the petition ; but he could not avoid saying, that
his observations contained matter of which it was the duty
of any man who differed in opinion to take respectful notice.
The LORD CHANCELLOR begged leave to my, that
the question upon the petition had been put and carried.
The Earl of ELDON was not aware of the fact, and
wished that the Noble and Learned Lord had spoken a
little louder on the occasion, that the House might know
what business was and what was not concluded. He would
take this opportnnity of saying a few words upon the new
motion of the Noble Duke (Richmond). The measure to
he disritssed to-night was for the annihilation of the Roman
Catholic Association, and in that object no man in the
country would more heartily concert than himself; but it
was his duty to add, that if this Bill were to he made the
purchase of any other now in contemplation, of the nature
of wilidt be wonld not say one word, it deserved conside-
ration whether even the Bill for the Suppression of the
Association ought to be assented to.—(Hear.)—No man
could accept it as a proper and adequate remuneration for
giving up that which he was satisfied ought neverto be relin-
quished. In this view it was not merely a Bill for the SupJ
nression of the Roman Catholic Association. He world;
however, go further, and assert that if any man thought enttf-,
the Bill to be read a second time this night would of itself
put an t nd to the Association, if it pleased to awake after
some brief and unquiet slumber, there never was so extra-
vagant an opinion formed upon so futile a measure.
(Hear, hear.)—lt seas said that this Bill had been framed
by persons of such skill and ingenuity that it must be effeo-
turd ; that a Noble Lord, of the most acute abilities, hail
cattle over from Ireland fur the express purpose of aiding'
in drawing it ; that no hole was left to creep out at. If
had been said of the Act of 1825 that a coach and
four might be driven through it; and of tile measure noel
proposed, as it stood at present, he might assert, that nal
a coach and four but a coach and six might he driven
through it, anti all the horses abreast.—(Laughter.)—[We
are not sere that we precisely caught his Lordship's ex-
pression, in consequence of the noise in the House.]
Lord HOLLAND spoke to Order, and said that ho
would not deviate into the general question soon to be in-
troduced by the Noble Duke. He vindicated the right of
the Lord Chancellor to interfere to preserve Order, although
he admitted that every other Peer possessed the same pri-
vilege. In this instance, the Noble and Learned on the
Woolsack could speak not only as a judge but as a witness
of irregularity. After the question had been put and de-
cided, all subsequent discussion upon it was, of course, irre..
gular. If the Noble anti Learned Lord had contributed,
as had been charged, to the disorder, it ought to be recol-
lected that what hail passed seemed to require some obser-
vations from one of his Majesty's advisers. The principle was,
that all Peers, in all respects, in this place, were eqnai?ti
and what mi,glit be done by one might he done by anothet.
The Duke of SUSSEX observed, that the Noble Dult
(Richmond) having only made the motion pro forme, in
order that he might follow it up by a speech, he would, of
course, now withdraw it, in order that the Bill now to to
brought before the House might be discussed.
The question of Adjournment was then put, and ne.
gatived.
CAIIIOLIC ASSOCIATION SUPPRESSION BILL.
The Order of the Day for the second reading of the Bill
for the Suppression of Dangerous Associations was then
read.

half hour. When Noble and Illustrious Duke (Cum=
herland) rose to address your Lordships, there was no ques-
tion helm e the House ; but not of deference and respect to
that illustrious individual, I did not interfere to prevent any
conversation that was then likely to take plate. The Noble
and Illustrious Doh ehaving add u cesed the House, and having,
in doing so, made that impression which your Lordship's
must remember, the Noble Earl (Grey) rose fur the pur-
pose of making a few observations on what fell from the
Illustrious Duke. In consequence of the conversation having
taken this turn, I did not feel justified in interfering ; but
now I feel that I am called on to apologise to your Lordships
for having so far deviated from the rules of this Hou-e ; and
I feel that, having presented myself on this occasion, and for
this purpose, I am also called on, from what has fallen in
the course of this conversation, to state distinctly, accord-
ing to my meaning of the word, what the Constitution is,
as I understand the laws of the country. My opinions,
my Lords, on this subject, have been formed after a careful
perusal of that part of the history of the country to
which your attention his this evening been( called. I
entertain a mighty different opinii.n of the onstitution
from that expressed by the Noble and Learned Lord
(Eldon) ; but I feel bound to state that, such being my
opinions, and dissenting. as I do front that Noble and
-a. Learned Lord, I do it ,ith great deference, but at the
same time with great firmness ; for I am quite sore, aft, r
the best attention I have been able to give to the measures
which his Majesty's Ministers intend to submit to the con-
sideration of Parliament, that no measure that will be pro-
posed by them will be found inconsistent with the princi-
ples of the Constitution of this country, as recognised at the
period to which the Noble and Learned Lord refers. I
should, my Lords, ill deserve to be placed in that situation
to which I have been raised by the kindness and indulgence
of his Majesty, if I recommended or joined in recommend-
ing to him any measure likely to prove destructive to the
Constitution of this country ; and I am certain that, when
your Lordships shall hear further than the petitions read to
us by the Noble and, Learned Lord, you will agree with me
that we should act in variance with the opinion of the
Illustrious Individual, who has argued that the Constitution
was established at the Revolution on the basis of resisting
all concessions to the Roman Catholics for ever. I state so
with confidence ; for when your Lordships take a calm and
deliberate view of the state of Ireland, of the actual position
of the country, and the whole condition of this question, I
am satisfied that if those Illustrious Individuals who now
witness our deliberations, and partake in them, had pursued
precisely the same course that we have thine, they would
themselves have recommended to the Crown the same mea-
sures which it will he the duty of his Majesty's Ministers to
submit fur the adoption of Parliament. Having alluded more
distinctly than I originally intended to the question of con-
vesaions to the Roman Catholics, I beg leave to advert par-
ticularly to what has been said by a Noble and Learned
Lord, once a Member and ornament of this House. From
the manly character of the mind of the Noble Lord, I am
well aware that he would not condescend to such a course
for such a purpose ; but it certainly was calculated to raise
doubts, suspicions, and surmises. When the question
comes regularly before the House, I shall be ready to
combat the Noble Lord upon that point ; but I contend
that there is nothing in the measures proposed to be sub-
mitted to Parliament by his Majesty's Ministers io the
slightest degree affecting time principle of the succession to
the Crown. I state broatully, distinctly, and in the most
unqualified terms, though I entertain the highest respect
for the talents and learning of the Noble Lord, that I am
satisfied when the question comes in a substantive shape
before the House, I shall be able—humble and inferior in
all respects as I am,—to expose and overthrow the argu-
ments by which such a position shall be attempted to be
supported. At present I should not be justified in tres-
passing further on the attention of the House, than to pro-
test against such doctrines ; and I must protest also against
this course of proceeding, which is calculated to agitate
and excite the public mind, and can lead to no good
result. I remember that, osa the day of the meeting of
Parliament, allusion was made to the recommendation in
the Speech from the Throne, tint these great subjects
should be considered with temper and moderation ; but
front that day to the present, every endeavour has been
used to inflame and rouse, the passions of the multitude.
I beg to ask whether such atten pts were either decent or
proper in the face of that recommendation, and upon this
great subject, so vitally touching the most important
interests of the empire? What is it that his Majesty calls
upon his Parliament to do ? To consider the disabilities
under which his Roman Catholic subjects labour. With
what view ? With a view to put an end to those disabili-
ties, as far as is consistent with the security of the Pro-
testant religion in this country—as far as is consistent
with the security of the Protestant Constitution—as far as
is consistent with the security of the Protestant Church.
The Ministers have pledged themselves to introduce a Bill
which, in their judgment, will effect this object; and it
seems but fair and reasonable for Noble Lords to wait until
such a Bill shall have been introduced, and until they shall
have had an opportunity' of explaining its nature.—(Hear,
hear.) If, when that measure is submitted, it is found not
to conform to the recommendation of his Majesty—if it
cannot be adopted consistently with the security of the Pro-
testant Establishment or Constitution, it will be the duty
of this House to reject it. But if, on the contrary, your
Lordships are satisfied, as I trust you will be, that the Bill
to be brought in may be adopted without leading to any
dangerous consequences, I ant sure that adoption will give
satisfaction to the whole empire. I beg pardon for having
trespassed upon the patience of the House, but from the
aitnation in which I was placed, it was impossible for me
to pursue any other course.—(Hear, hear.)
The Duke of RICHMOND rose to move an adjourn-
ment pro forma, in order that he might have a regular op-
portunity of saying a few words. The Noble Lord on the
Woolsack was mistaken if he thought he had more right to
take upon himself to keep order in the House than any
other Peer. In the other House, indeed, the Speaker was
called upon to keep order, anti to enforce it. The Noble
and Learned Lord had commenced It s complaining of the
breach of form, and bad continued by widening that brietelt
and increasing the disorder. When the question came re-
gularly before the House the Noble and Learned Lord de-
clared that he should be prepared to justify the course
adopted by Ministers. He (the Duke of Richmond) did not
mean to join in any attempt to inflame the public mind ;
he should be one of the last to resort to such an unworthy
expedient ; and he was not aware that upon this point the
censure of the Noble and Learned Lord was at all merited
by any Peer ; but he (the Duke of Richmond) must take
the liberty of asking the Noble anti Learned Lord one ques-
tion, which might possibly inflame him, though not the
public mind ; and that was, how these new lights had so
recently broken in upon his understanding ?—( Hear.)—
Whether. the march of intellect anti the progress of know-
ledge, in these latter days, had at all contributed to this
sudden ?—(Hear, hear, hear.)—No doubt
the Noble and Learned Lord hail had good reasons to sa-
tisfy his mind ; his conviction this year, in direct opposi-
tion to his conviction last year, was unquestionably consci-
entious ; but those who adhered to their former opinions,
and who now, therefore, differed from the Noble and
Learned Lord, had a right to expect that the same justice
should be done to their motivea.—(llear, hear.)—lle (the
Duke of Richmond) was against Emancipation at all ;
and if he had been one who thought that securities would
be of any avail, he should, as the Noble and Learned Lord
had recommended, have waited until the measure was in-
troduced. Wishing for no alteration—not having had the
benefit of the new lights obtained by the Noble and Learned
Lord—he had a right to state his objections to every pi o-
ject of the kind, without being taunted with endeavouring
to excite the passions of the people—(hear, hear.)—When
the Bill was brought in, he should resist all further con-
cession, whatever might be its provisions ; and would now,
pro forma, move the adjournment of the House.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE wished to say only one
word OH the point of order, and not to join in the irregula-
rity. There was not only no incidental motion before the
House ; but no question at all.
The Earl of ELDON observed that the Order of the
Day had been moved.
The Alarquis of LANSDOWNE added, that the present
question was that of adjournment, and upon that he had a
right to state what he conceived was the due order of pro-
ceeding. He begged to confirm most distinctly what had
fallen from the Noble Duke upon the subject—ex officio.
The Nubile and Learned Lord on the Woolsack had no right
to interfere to call the House to order, unless be was re-
quired to state his opinion upon the subject. At the same
time, he must in justice admit, that in general it had been
more expected from the Peer who occupied that situation
than from any other, that he should suggest what was the
regular course, and take the pleasure of the House upon it.
The Noble and Learned Lord, however, had no greater pri-
vilege in this respect than any other Peer. lie (Lord
Lansdowne), for one, regretted this disorderly discussion
had occurred, and he would not contribute further than to
express his confidential hope that the important topic ad-
verted to would, at the fit time, meet with the full discus-
sion and investigation which the overwhelming magnitude
of the subject imperatively demanded.
The Earl of ELDON agreed in the opinion that the
Lord Chancellor had no mere right than any other Peer
to call the House to order, and remembered that on one
occasion Lord Grenville bad silenced him, when be, then
presiding on the woolsack, haul contended for the especial
privilege of the Lord Chancellor to advert to any irregula-
rity of proceeding. It seemed necessary in a deliberative
Arnuthly that it alavulti be tuidubt* that avun one was

'hot

The Duke of WELLINGTON—It now becomes nil
duty to move the second reading of the Bill for Suppresia
ing Illegal and Dangerous Associations; in doing sa, it is
my intention to refer as little as possible to the question so
much discussed for the last two house, and I must say ae
very irregularly (hear, hear !). In adverting to the CA'
tholic Association, it is not my purpose, nor my wish, t°
exaggerate its power, or to aggravate its evils; its dowdy'
tion is, in my opinion, accurately stated in the Speech
delivered by his Majesty's Commissioners on the first dal
of the Session, where it is said that " his Majesty la'
ments that in that part of the United Kingdom an As'
eociation should still exist which is dangerous to the pulse
lic peace, and inconsistent with the spirit of the Constie
tution : which keeps alive discord and amongst
his Majesty's subjects ; and which must, if permitted to
continue, effectually obstruct every effort permanentli
to improve the condition of Ireland." It is followed bl
the expression of his Majesty's reliance on the wisdom 01
Parliament, " to commit to him such powers as may en'
able his Majesty to sustain his just authority." I feel that
I am warranted in stating, that in the original constitution
and form of this Society there was nothing illegal; it'
illegality arises from its acts, and from the language of it'
members. Its acts consist principally of the levy of a re'
venue upon his Majesty's subjects, called a rent, pro'
cured, I am afraid, in some instances, by extreme Vitt'knee, and occasioning many heart-burnings and jealonsie
among the people. Other acts of the same character
are, appointing persons to collect that revenue or rent
•—nominating others to be treasurers of the 81101'
thus procured—organising the people, certainly for no
good purpose--selecting individuals to superintend such
organization, and assuming, in many cases, the go-
vernment of the country—and, what is more, affecting to
assnme that Government. They have, besides, expended
the rent in a manner inconsistent with all law and order,
and with the Constitution of the empire. Part of the
money was appropriated to election purposes ; and here I
beg leave to draw the attention of some of my Noble
Friends, and particularly of my Noble Friend heretofore on
the 'Woolsack, to the fact established by the proceedings 0f
this body, of the existence in Parliament of a Roman Ca-
tholic influence, and' even of the influence of the Associa-
tion. (Hear, hear.) Ido not mean to discuss the subject
further at present, but I beg Noble Lords not to forget
that fact when they come to the consideration of measure
I shall propose hereafter, and when they are called urn°
to arrive at a decision on those measures. Besides the
money spent for the purpose of procuring voters at elec.-
nous, other sums were laid out in endeavouring to contront
the administration of justice in Ireland. I fully adroit
the right, and not only the right, but the duty, of every'
nun to watch closely and vigilantly the administration of
law and justice; but that right and that duty cannot be
conveniently or adequately performed by a self-elected,
self-erected Association, having large sums at its corn',
mend, and employing those sums for the purpose 0$
exciting litigation—for the purpose of defending seiner
of prosecuting others—for the purpose of introducing
agents among Coroners' Juries, and influencing and
corrupting the first inquiries into criminal proceeding!
when information is laid before the Magistrates. It je
quite obvious that proceedings of this description must tend
to the tainting of the very fountain of justice itself./
(Hear, hear.)—The proceedings of such a body, so con'
stituted and so organised, might have the effect of mixtfig
party spirit in every judicial discussion—of introducing
faction among juries, awl shaking the public confidence Ot
that tribunal which is the foundation of private rights sod
the safeguard of personal liberty. I will not now deal°
your Lordships by explaining to you the effects which the
existence and operations of this Association had upon Ire;
land : in my opinion these facts belong more properly to
future discussion, when I shall be required to (lentil tb.
measures the Government will have to propose, after Or
Bill now on your table shall have passed. This, however,
I must say, that from all I have seen and read of Ireland'
for the last two years, I do not believe there is on the Cl°,
of the globe a country claiming the character of civilise
tion in so perilous a condition.—(Hear, hear, beer.)_
In the discussions that have already taken place mil°,
subject of this Association, several of your LordshlP.
have expressed the opinion that the Bill I am abet
to propose is not necessary, because the ulterior yet
sure announced in the Speech from the Throne
.1:
calculated of itself to put an end to the Catholic Assoc°
Thattion. opinion must be founded upon this Notion!,
that the Association speaks the language and entertains t!,/
sentiments of the great body of the Roman Catholics vr,
Ireland. Now, my Lords, lam afraid, from the nunibed
that have attended that Association—from the nature;
the speeches there delivered, and to which no ohjsel°o
was made—from the patient submission of those who bei,
contributed the rent, that the notion to which I have 11,
hided is well founded. That any Noble Lords should ,
tempt to justify such conduct seems to tne very extraott:',
nary, and that justification can rest upon one ground o°loff
viz. that the claim of the Roman Catholics to the repeal 0
the disabilities of which they complain is founded urbi,
right. Now, I recollect the many discussions upon „
question, both in this and in the other Ilouse of PAO;
meat, and I believe not one instance can be pointed out 10
which what is required by the Roman Catholics has,
rested rested on the ground of abstract right. It has been
riably argued as a question solely of political experbeticle
and never as a right; and as a question of political
(limey, I submit to your Lordships that the Roman re
tholics ate not justified in having established this Po
soeiation—in being ;parties to the proceedings of ft,
Association, and in subaiitting to the payment of
in order to create a revenue to be employed by the .
soeiation. Under these circumstances, therefore, I o°4
your Lord-hips will be fully justified in carrying into efio
that part of his Majesty's Speech which recommends t",
suppression of the Association before you proceed t? o
consideration of the ulterior tuettsurea .aittorckrrc4 t.. 9