The Sun.
London, England, 1845-06-05 00:00:00

wished that their Lordships wou!d not imagine that he referred was a rush forward made by the people, argil he (Lo !on e N
to those matters for the purpose of making any exaggeration or eagle) would say, that he knew not what peopl '
creat'lig excitement. He used those a-guinents in favour of coun,ry would no: have done the sme under the , e vi.eonnA., . --7.- -
..' --
the present Bill, and to show that the close of the Legislature stances.—( Hear, hear.) This art of tho e mi. i arieslputtir—,.....--,,,-7.-).,
was, ,hat they created a separation between themselves and the what ~.ine Noble Lords iniAt call indiscreet ; it CE.tirit. , ._,-!;,:•.„ \--,
great majority of the people of Ireland—between themselves Mont, ~gie) ;you'd call it a most inv. erant ac t4e ,felettereereneee i .ee,
(
..., ..... es
and their rclig'ous instructors, and between themselves and upon that occasion tile Roman Catholic priests hr-iffr2wcbf..-, ~::,
__:
thus,' who used the greatest influence among=t that p,oplc. and i escued those missionaries, and protected eclelefeedede
sses -- •
~. ee.
And that was almost the first time in which the Parliament of them, and thus through the means of those ver ufen seithsiist
___ --1 „,
ti e United Kingdom had touched that sore plane with a view ministers had been so go grossly and wantonly i leeeleAlate
of healing it. They were now disposed to deal with that public peace had been preserved. —(Hear, hear.) tisidee ailed sa‘k ANI,
religion as one vvhieh was preferred by the body of circumstances he would ask their Lordships would thl, Se sur-
the people. He took the liberty of moving for pried to hear that the public peace had been violated ;he
a return which was now on the table of the House would Fay that if the people had remained passive at the time of
and he wished to call the attention of their Lordshios to it. in that occasion they would have shown themselves not men, but
order to show the falsity of the idea that they were now called less than men to have done so.—( Hear, bear.) The Protestants
upon to do something new, that. they were now unprotestant. of Ireland, it had been said, had expressed themselves as hos-
ising England, and that they were unchristianising the king- tile to this measure; sonic persons who had arrogated that title
dom. Nothing could be more false ; and it was more flatter- had sent in petitions certainly, but he denied that
ing to those who made statements to that effect, to suppose that they were the Protestants of Irelane ( Heer, hear. )
they were ignorant of the facts, than that they were guilty of He was a Protestant, and as such he should Sal that mere in-
flagrant misrepresentations. The return which he alluded to jury than service was done that eetabli-hment b such toots as
showed the conduct of this country with respect to the religious that there were some parishes in Ireland with rich emoluments
instruction of the colonies. The return showed that which but no parishioners; whi!e in others there were parishioners
ought always to be the case—that in the discharge of their but clerical inefficiency.—(Hear, hear. ) Yet he would never
colonial duties they considered that there were moral and re- be the man to consent to the endowment of the Catholic
ligious responsibilities engaged, and how these duties had t hureli rut of the revenues of the Protestant Choreh.—
been performed had been shown on the face of the returns. (Cheers.) He had hard the Noble Duke say, that the Re•
They showed that 163,000/. were appropriated in one year to man Ca frolics were there, and what was t' be riorte with them?
the Church of England; 09.000/. for the Church of Se it- He was glad to hear that admission, for there was a period in
land. Wesleyans, and the various denominations of Protes- Ireland—the year 175 e—when it was declared from the judi-
tant Dissenters, were allowed 46,0001., and they appropriated to cial bench, that it was assumed that there was we such tiring
that very Church of Rome, fer the actual instruction of the in the country as a Roman Catholic.--( Hear, hear.) lie be-
people of the Church of dome, for paying their priests and devil the Catholics of Ireland felt the sanctity of an oath es
their Bishops, the sum of 2.6,00 e/ —That was not the intro- much as any Protestant, and it never coule be said that they
duction of the present day, it was not the act of his Noble had ever violated their oath of allegiance to +he Creen.
Friend, but it was the act of their predecessors in office. Ore Sueli being the case, why ens it to lie sai I that
of the latest of these colonial establishments which had been those who voted for this grant were those who assented to
founded, arid which he would cite to illustrate the pr ncip,e violate the oath of allegiance ? He had ever found the Ca-
he had laid down. He alluded to the proceedings with respect tholic priests denounce the violation of the law, and he had
to New South Wales. In this colony the voluntary principle known them not only encounter risk, tint even death, in sup.
was not laid down—a principle which he disliked as much as port of the law—( Hear, hear)—and as an example of that, he
any Noble Lord opposite, for he did not like to see religion might mention the Rev. Mr. el'Queeny, who was shot in so
treated as an immaterial thing left to shift for itself. He laudable a work.—( Hear. hear.) In Clare the Catholic
thought it was the duty of the &ate to protect religion as much priests had even been reiused access to their own chapel in
as any material interest. But he must tell their Lordships consequence of their efforts to uphold the law. While he said
what principles had been acted on. There all religions were this he must admit that many of the pri. stn were politically
protected—all religions were endowed in proportion to their excited, and there might have been fooli h, and indiscreet
number, and the result was in New South Wales most satin- songs sung on St. Patrick's day at the College of
factory. He would a,k any Member of the Right Reverend Maynooth, but while he said this he must at the same time ad-
bench whether there was any colonial establishment under the mit that he should be sorry to hold himself respomeble Cr any
dominion of the Crown in which the Church of Eng- man for the songs that had been sung at Trinity College It
laud had been more successful —in which its prin- was said that there was great evidence of the opposition of this
ciples had taken a deeper root—more prosperous in any country to the Bill in the petitions that had been presented.
way whatever than it was there, under this system of endow- He objected to those petitions being considered as any evidence
ment? The Right Rev. Prelate must be aware of what he against the grant to Maynooth. Many of them were presented
had stated regarding this colony from the reports which by Dissenters, and wi,at did their petitions amount to? Were
reached their Missionary Society. But his object in referring they against Maynooth? No, but against any Church en-
to this was not to show that Parliament had endowed error. dowment at all. He rejected them, therefore, altogether as bear-
for if they went upon that principle they must disavow all past ing upon the qeestion. The politics of the last ten years
legislation on these subjects. Ohn but some might say these he believed had caused the great excitement oe this 'object.
were but colonies, then would their Lordships say to the people He was sorry to say that Ireland had beset the battle field of
of Ireland, we will do more for the remotest, the most insignifi- party ; every thing Irish or Roman Catholic, both in Parlia-
cant colony that exists, than we will do for you. We pay the ment and out of doors, was held up iii a way to cause cxtio e.
Roman Catholic priests in Australia—we pay them in Van ment, and those parties had conjured up a cry for w bleb they
Dieman's Land, but to the priests in Ireland, for their educe- were now suffering. He did not recur to the i ast with airy
tion we consider it would be sinful to contribute.—( Hear, feeling or desire to be reproaehful. It had tier n said ire the
hear.) As to the argument of the increased sum proposed, it other House of Parliament, that, in reference to thi Bill, the
was preposterous, for if the argument was worth a straw it Government of the Noble Duke opposite was entitled to the
would. go for the withdrawal of all grants.—(Hear, hear. ) deepest gratitude of the people of Ireland; and, as an individual
The only alternative then was to make the grant avail- member of that country, he sincerely tendered them hi- most
able for the proposed intention.—( Hear, hear.) unqualified thanks.—( Hear, hear.) A wiser, and a better,
Were they prepared to say to the people of Ireland—" we will and a more conciliatory measure than the present could not
regard the religion of Roman Catholics wherever the flag of have been proposed, and were he disposed to apply
England waves, we will consider the claims of Catholicism the magnifying eye to all the circumstances of
wherever it is to be found, except en Irish soil, but when we the case, it would be impossible for him to find
come there we will tell you that the book called Secundus any thing to lead him to think that Government had been
Secundi stands between us and the discharge of our duty.— actuated by any other motive thaw that of doir.g good in intro-
( Hear, hear.) The Irish Roman Catholic peasant wished to ducing this Bile—(Cheers.) They must have known, from
have their priests educated—the Roman Catholic Bishops their pest experience a d from past occurrences, that the
wished their pastors educated in a manner that would be measure would be objected to by many of their supporters,
creditable to the Church, but what
,do you tell them ? while, on the other hand, they were doubtful whether it would
" You admire Thomas A quinas—you have Maldonatus on be acceptable to these whom it would most and immediately
your shelves, and we cannot therefore assist you." My Lords, affect. At the same time the Government must have felt it to
that would not be satisfactory.—( Hear, hear.) It would be be a just and rigir measure, and having introduced it he trusted
as illogical in point of fact as unsatisfactory to the Irish their Lordships would pass i . And he would here rem-irk that
people.—( Hear.) But the case didnot rest there. They were the majority upon this measure was a majerity which would
not to encourage error it was said—it was a national sin to do fall not merely on the question of Maynooth, but also
so—the religious world were invited to join in this op. upon the question of repeal. It would prove the most signal
position. Exeter-hall sent forth its petitions, and its defeat to those who had endeavoured to raise the cry that from
walls re-echoed its debates. He had shown then that the Imperial Parliament no justice, no conciliation, and no
they supported Catholicism elsewhere—that they had sane- kindness to Ireland was to be expected.—( Hear, hear, ) Why,
tioned instruction in Catholicism from the year 1793 in it was palpable that the contrary was the fact. Let them look
Ireland, but they had gone farther. He held in his hand the through the annals of past times, and they would find that the
report of the affairs of the East India Company. He found, in Irish Parliament refused all inquiry into the question of tithes,
respect to Bengal, they supported there a Mahometan College while the Imperial Parliament removed the abuse of tithes
at Calcutta—that they supported another at Benares, and just altogether. Ihe I, i-h Parliament adopted the most vexatious
let them hear the reason. The Noble Lord then read an ex- and most odious system of taxation, reaching the pickets of
tract, the substance of which was as follows, from the report.— the humblest of the people, and this abominable system the
" The Calcutta, or Mahomedan, College was founded at the Imperial Parliament had destroyed. —(Hear, hear.) The
request of several distinguished Mahomedans. There have Irish Parliament passed the Penal lets, but the
been grants of money ; inspection and inquiry ; a course of Imperial Parliament abolished them. He said, then,
science was taught there, comprising natural philosophy, law, the Imperial Parliament had a claim upon the consideration
astronomy, geology, oratory, rhetoric, &c. The salaries were and respect and affection of Ireland. Whatever might be told
there fixed." In like manner, at Benares, there was a Sanscrit to the people of Ireland, their feelings, their interests, ant he
College, founded " for the preservation and cultivation of the could say their religion, were respected and regarded much
laws, literature, and religion of the Hindoos, arid more part.- snore, and much better by the Imperial Parliament than they
cularly of the laws of the sacred city." Were they, after could be by a Parliament of their own. —( Cheers. )
this, disposed to go back to Ireland, and say, " We The Bishop of ST. DAVID'S said it was not the peculiar
have founded the sacred city of Benares—we have nature of this measure as connected with the interests of reit-
provided for the instruction of the Mahometans, we gion, nor was it the want of unanimity on this _subject observ-
have provided for the Hindoos, but from those who able on the bench of which he was an occupant, that made him
are near to us, and ought (and I believe are) desirous to trespass upon their Lordships, but there was another
dear to us, we will withhold this grant, and argue against the consideration he had in view in rising to address their Lord-
grant, on the ground that we will not condescend to increase ships. After the differences of opinions which had been
error." He was of opinion that the Christian religion, in auy exhibited on this matter he was extremely art'xious nor. to give
modification, or in any sense of the words, was not error. Let a silent vote on this occasion. He reseetted the opposition out
them prove to him that that religion was error as compared of doors against this measure, and the turn it had taken was
with that of Hindoos and Mahomedan, and then, indeed, such as absolutely prevented him giving a silent vote, He be.
they would be justified on this ground in withholding the grant lieved unfair means had been taken to abuse the public opinion
to the people of Ireland; hut whilst they patronised the re- upon the subject, and, moreover, although the opposition
ligion of the Hindoos—whilst they supported the sacred city of presented a very compact and united front, it was impsts.
Bemires, he did not see how they could refuse the people of sible for their Lordships to coot-ral from themselves the
Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) One word more; they had built a fact, that that front covered as great a difference and repugnance
Roman Catholic church at Surat, and Roman Catholic churches of opinion as existed between those who supported and de-
in other parts of the Presidency of Bombay. The argument fended the measure.—(Hear, hear.) And that observation
was suggested to him by his Noble and Learned Friend on the applied no less forcibly to those who contended fur the volun.
Woolsack (Lord Brougham) —who did not advert to it because tary principle, for some were in favour of religious voluntary
he wished as much as possible to impress the subject ; and principle, while others advocated a political voluntary principle,
what had foreign countries done ? Did they treat the and the two were as wide and as far assunder as
religion of the people adversely because it differed from that of the poles. It had been a matter of doubt with some, whether
the majority, and would this be used as an argument for treat- any principle was involved in the Bill, and on the whole he
ing the Roman Catholics of Ireland in the manner they had was inclined to think that the Bill touched upon little that,
done ? No such thing. Let them look to France. Look to could be called principle. He could perfectly well understand that
other countries where there were differences of religious those who objected to the annual grant, could object still more
opinions, and see whether this would be a safe lesson to read to strongly to the increase, and he could just as easily understand
the people of Ireland. We might tell them that foreign men- that those who assented to the annual grant might not be sa-
tries showed more respect and deference to the religion of tisfied with the policy or the wisdom of the pressnt measure,
Protestants in foreign countries than England showed to the but he really could not see how those parties could dissent
people of Ireland. He was perfectly warranted in saying that from the Bill on the ground of any thing like princip.e.—( Hear. )
this question presented at least one peculiar characteristic. The principal object which he had in addressing tieir Lo 0-
Then no one had suggested any alternative, any proposal, or ships was, that he might nave an opoJrtunity of ex ei.toin ~, ets
remedy, in case the present grant were removed. The Noble principles on which he supported the eresent ores-ore, but he
Earl (Roden) did not say his motion was an alternative, but, could net do so until he had cleared the way by rein.,v,ti sore
with the frankness and honesty which characterised him, said of those objections which had so powerituie iutleenced the
that he did not propose the motion in any serious light, but public mind, and until he had shown why those objections had
purely as an objection to the Bill. But what not affected his opinion in voting against the proposed grant.
were they to do? Were they to pass the Bill or leave He would briefly notice one objection with respect to tee pre-
the law as it now stood—or were they to repeal that law? sent subject. It had been assumed that this
Those who argued against the present state of things in May- measure was essentially a sacrifice of principle to
nooth could nut vote for the continuance of the present grant— expediency, and we had been assured it was right to do evil
by their own account they could not permit the present state that good might come. That principle was not right it was
of things to continue. A suggestion had been made in the evident; but he would wish their Lordships to reine.ober that
other House for the removal of the grant, bul nobody was found the dictum was totally inapplicable to the present cate. The
to suppo t that proposal. Surely those on the other side who cases to which it might be appropriately applied were those
would oppose any grant, could not be favourable to the only in which there was unmixed good and unmixed evil, or
Irish Roman Catholic prieshood receiving a foreign education, unmixed truth and unmixed error. If the maxim were to be
Would not the arguments of ultramontane doctrines and fo- applied to the present measure, it must be expi essed in very
reign influence be stronger than at present, and Mr. Lord, a different terms. The question was not will you do
high authority on these matters, said, referring to the College good in order that evil may come, but will you do good
of Rome, " What can we expect to get from Rome but foreign with a slight admixture of evil, or will you refuse to convey
influences, bigotry, and superstition." This, upon the Noble truth, if it be a truth, amalgamated with the smallest quan-
Earl's own showing, would appear more objectionable. In tity of ertor. This objection would apply to all the arguments
the course of the Noble Earl's opening speech, in that had been raised against the present measure, and all the
moving the amendment, he referred to a great and fallacies that had been brought forward to compete it would be
high name—clarunr et venerable nomen one which completely answered, if it was inquired had anything better
must excite the sympathy and command the respect of the been proposed as a substitute than tnat which was now offered.
people of England. He meant Mr. Wilberforce.--( Hear, He would say, do all the good you can when you cannot do
hear.) From the manner in which his name had been intro- all the good you wish. He would now proceed to another
duced, those who were unacquanted with his character and point, which embraced many considerations within its
Parliamentary conduct might suppose that Mr. Wilberforce sphere, but he would confine bin observations to only
was against the Roman Catholic religion, and especially against one. The present measure had been stigmatised
the grant to Maynooth. In the words which Mr. Wilberforce as a measure that sanctioned idolatry and superstition. They
used in ItloB, he could see no such expression.—( Hear, had been told by the Noble Earl that idolatry and superstition
hear, hear.) The question at that time was whether were very hard names and harsh terms, but they were not only
under the peculiar circumstances of the case the Percival harsh terms but also very loose and indefinite terms, and they
Government was or was not justified in continuing the in- conveyed a general idea of some kind of religious error, wt :le,
creased grant mole by their predecessors in office ; but what at the same time, they suggested feelings of centeringi and
did he say on that occasion? He called attention to that hatred, but they performed the latter part of their office
because the name and authority of Wilberforce were high, and more effectually than they did the other. He would wi"h
must have the greatest influence on the minds of persons op. their Lordships for one moment to consider the state
posed to the grant. The Noble Duke the Secretary for Ire- of religion among the
most
savaole,degraded, arid
land observed that he would not object to the grant on prin- uncivilized races that were known . either in ancient
Think of the votaries of .tugger-
the ; he had never said he would object to or modern times. .
the grant on principle. The Noble Duke, referring to Pare naut, and of the miserable idolatry of Iceland and the south
what stronger terms could be applied to
liamentary documents, stated distinctly that he objet ed to the Seas, and then say
increase, because there was already a sufficient number of them than the epithets of idolators and superstition. —( Hear.
priests for the population. Mr. Wilberforce, in place of He would
oath, a s if
wouldtb ey
ihadtsoeefrn,oetawxidipimsefodarireeoteahftlemtaefi rtisamtirtt iwm ande,r
dt to
5r
efiasuerotmenatthhhleee)
objecting to the Maynooth grant—instead of saying anything coronation
to testify his ad-
condemnatory, said, "I am for toleration—we not only doubt thatf
ash
se
onecessaryepithets
that would stigmatise man
tolerate but lend encouragement to the Roman Catholic re- mouth o
„ipitthewt
ligion." Mr. Wilberforce did net condemn that—if he here nee
had condemned it he would have voted against the small vote of his subjects as idolators atidisleeststuetepreenerinsstiintg.io..ouus
superstitious.
as against the large ; but he spoke in approval of it contrast- was doubtless,
fthe howweerveetr:kenthiant,hethfue
ing the conduct of the people of England with the conduct objected to i _
of other countries, in which they regarded toleration as the die- words were not intyended to be made the subject of a discussion,
charge of a national duty, that thy not only tolerated--that succor as had been heard from the Noble Duke on the cross-
was they had not only ceased to persecute and withdraw disa- benches. He would say that in public documents it would be
bilities, but they had done an act of grace and favour like that better to avoid language which must necessarily give birth to
of founding Maynooth. Another name had been used which had angry and unpleasant feelings on every point. There was a
great intuence—he meant the name of Alexander Knox. solemnity annually performed by the Church of England w bleb
A more pious, respectable, and respected man could not be was a thanksgiving fur deliverance from great danger, and he
named, and the best proof he could give of it was the fact that hoped that that solemnity would never be abelisheds
he was the intimate friend of Bishop Jebb. Well, then, he hut he considered it was instituted for the purpose of
( Lord Monteagle) would now show their Lordships that the re-creating religious animosities, and itir wsiin
Noble Lord opposite (Lord Roden) was mistaken when he opinion a matter of congratulation from the
,Lordships_ that
stated that Mr. Knox was opposed to the Maynooth grant. they were discussing the present measure on the 4th of June,
The Earl of RODEN said his statement was, that Mr. Knox and not on the sth of November. As to the coronation oath,
was opposed to the proceedings in Maynooth, not to the grant which might contain the words superstitious and idolatrous, it
to it—quite the contrary, was absurd to suppose that the Sovereign of this realm could
Lord MONTEAGLE—WeII, then, he would show the ever be bound to set himself in opposition to the constitutionalk
House that Mr. Knox was not only not opposed to the grant, interestsa and wishes of his people.
wereH. e
Twhaesroonwlyas.pea ing as
however,
or felt unfavourably towards Maynooth, but that he had, in fact, towh t superstition and idolatry
We were told that the resent t
always been favourable to it. It appeared by an authority he another point.
had now before him, that Mr. Knox was at one time made the measure in which idolatry and superstition uwo 'old" be
If there were no error in it, he would
medium of communication between the Government and 6 May-af _
sanctioned.flvela,lmit there was no gainsaying it.—( Hear hear.
nooth. He was examined before a Committeehei(n 18rtj
Mont- He wyould illustrate his view of the subject by reference to the
he had been twenty years in the
eagle) had mentioned, and his appointmentevidence was to the effect that tact that in the Government of Saxony—a country whets the
he applied for an increase of the grantNi to' Maynooth and got it; great mass of the people were Protestants_oo,orendtuilil:yrswhee`rde
therefore, it was quite clear that I r. Knox could not have been granted to relieve the Roman Catholic, when
taken a salary for twenty years in that situation if he did not placed in difficulties. He could not see that in doing this the Ito..
give hie entire approval to Maynooth man Catholic religion had been recognised. It that was so, as he
" Hear, hear.") The Noble Lnrd opposite had made a state dit, then he would as did the present measure sanction tho
speech on this subject, which cert.inly had made a great impre,s. Roman Catholic religion in any other way ? It was a question
sion on the House particularly in reference to what he had of calculation which persons of a great variety of opinions
stated about the occurrence in Dingle ; but he (Lord Mont.. might join in supporting, without its leading in any way to the
eagle) would say that all these statements should not be taken sanctioning of religious error, more than in the other case
for granted ;or that, at least, some allowance should be made which he had given. He believed that this grant would neither
for the state of feelings of the different parties.—( Hear, hear.) strengthen or perpetuate the Roman Catholic religion.
He (Lord Monteagle) had also heard something said about the —.(Hear, hear.) There was one other matter to which he
Catholic people not keeping their oaths, and he would have a would refer before proceeding to state, as succinctly as he could,
word or two to say about that presently ; but in reference to hisreasons felt supporting the Bill. It was a point containirgy
the Dingle case, the parties charged were tried by a mixed jury the eseence of the question. He did not see there was :re-
d their own countrymen, and a verdict of guilty returned sufficient ground for the amendment of the Noble Earl pro
against them. Now, he believed they had all heard of certain posing a Select Committee to inquire into the character and
proceedings that had taken place in the island of Achile. He doctrines of the College of Maynooth. The inquiry proposed
(Lord Monteagle) had heard a statement of the particulars by the Noble Earl either went too far, or did not go far
from an eye ovilness,a barrister and a relative of his own, and he enough. For his part, he agreed with the Noble and Learned
(Lord Monteagle) could not but say that. these proceedings Lord opposite, and with a Right Reverend Prelate
were such as would be sufficient to hear dente all human who had already spoken on the question, both of whom said
restraint' before it.— (Hear, hear.) The circumstances of the that such an inquiry was altogether unnecessary. But, admit-
occurrence were these— certain missionaries went to the i,land tin g that it was necessary, it was not sufficient to take the Col-
Achile, and a certain personage, of whom they all had heard lege of Maynooth—they must take a much wider range. They
a great deal, namely, Dr. Machale, upon hearing of this must not only ascertain the present condition. of that,
arrival, proceeded to the island to offer up the solemn sacrifice college at the present moment, but also whattli.hmitenwtuwerea
of the mass. All the Catholic people of the island had a fermer time, when theprofessors thatofA. e_
assembled round their clergy on the occasion, and their form ! L.,),a1 aid true in their attac.hmehnt, to
of worship was offered up in the usual form of ecele-iase:cal They should not only do_ te
pomp and solemnity; but while the Roman Catholic people ci. ,s-booke Ir;ti , _
were thus engaged in prayer, those missionaries came amongst coieges iii England,
them, and, holding up in the midst of that large crowd I kind of
what they called a " consecrated wafer," asked the people was
that what they called their God ? In consequence of this there Roman
I neat—atß Rome, ti-letcaobin principles.
books
,ripsw..n.Scotland. and
irtehiey.,-,s3h;oueleddeasicseerltaeeinre
thethe
educationu in other Roman Catholic
Ise ed in the coll. ges on the Conti-
and other cities, where
Catholico, students would have to be educated, suppoe