The Sun.
London, England, 1829-04-04 00:00:00

catiorn—(Hear,)_lfueh had been done in this way of
late years, under the Administrations- of Lords Liverpool
and his Noble Friend—much had been done for
the education of Ireland. The 'powers of the Grand
Jury had been enlarged—beneficial changes had been
made in the - Courts of -Justice' in Ireland—ronstabulary
force had been established, and whet- :joie* of no lees im-
portance, justice was now iri optn courts in Ireland.
Who could deny that the result of all this was not an in-
creased confidence in the people of that country in the ad-
ministration of justice?—(Hear.)—Bat this was not all,
He might allude to other measures,—the review of the
whole state of the magistracy in that country—a better
arrangement of tithes. This measure alone was sufficient
to stamp a value upon an Administration which con-
ferred so great and so important a boon upon Ireland;
other suggestions equally beneficial had been made by other
administrations, though not unfortunately carried into
effect. He alluded to the suggestion of appointing Lord
Lieutenants of the counties in Ireland as they were here;
it could not be denied that there was wanting some such
responsible officers who would be answerable fur the recom-
mendation of Magistrates, and whose business it would be
to punish any delinquency that took place in the due admi-
nistration of justice in that country. Looking then at the
situation of things in Ireland, and judging by the rules that
governed human nature in the abstract, he should say that
the true benevolence of legislation was not in the
granting of Catholic emancipation ; but in the carry-
ing into effect the unneessary suggestions which had
been made by former Administrations. Noble Lords
might then with sincerity put their hands on their hearts,
and congratulate themselves on the state of things which
they had produced. They might then indeed realize the
picture which they had drawn in their imaginations,
which, as applied to this Bill, had no solid materials
for its construction ; they might then figure to
themselves the agitations now so dangerous to autho-
' rity removed—(hear)—the condition of their tenants
improved ; the value of their rents enhanced, and more
freely paid ; confidence increased, or at least the terrors
reduced in the mind of the labourer that the fruits of his
exertions would not be his own property. The great
grievance of Ireland was distress, arising from the want of
food.—(Hear, hear.)—The remedy for that was acknow-
ledged on all hands to be the influx of capital, but
by a strange round-about mode of reasoning the mea-
sure of Catholic Emancipation, which after all must
influence only remotely and circuitously the sources
of capital were said to be the means of curing those evils.
Surely when public confidence in :the administration of
the law was increased, Noble Lords must admit that that
was pro tanto a palliative for the evils of Ireland. In-
crease that confidence then, give them an equal and im-
partial system of law ; educate the people, stimulate their
industry ; that was the true way to legislate for Ireland, and
not the measure now under consideratin.—(Cheers.)—Re
acknowledged being disappointed of securities in this
Bill ; he thought it would only tend to increase the dis-
satisfaction of the Protestant population, and by no means
give satisfaction to a portion of the Catholic community.
He in his conscience believed that the wiser course was
now to resist encroachments when we were better able to
doso than at a future time, when we would be in a worse
condition to resist them. Generous minds must be grati-
fied at seeing one's fellow-subjects restored to the full enjoy-
ment of their rights, but there were higher interests which
must be consulted before one yielded to the kindlier,
and therefore, perhaps, weaker suggestions of one's
feelings. The Noble Lord concluded by reading a por-
tion of a letter in which the author recom-
mended that the wise examples of our ancestors ought
to be followed, who had never given up solid substances
for theoretical speculations, and that like them we ought
to endeavour to gainehe confidence of our friends, and the
respect of our enemies, by maufuhy hazarding every thing
in defence of that fabric of the Constitution which had
been handed down to us sanctified by such high authority,
and sanctified by such long experience.—(Cheers.)
Lord WESTMORELAND rose to explain, I think I
could not say more, observed the Noble Lord, to satisfy the
Noble Lord who has just sat down, than that I considered
myself as much concerned in these transactions, as I consi-
dered him ,that whether the measures were right or wrong,
I was equally right or equally wrong with himself; therefore
it is quite impossible I could mean any reflection, and I beg
to assure the Noble Lord that I most distinctly disavow it.
Lord LIVERPOOL said—ify Lords, I wish to make
a few obervations with respect to the motives that have
actuated me on the present occasion. This is rendered the
more incumbent upon me by the remarks of the Noble Lord
who has just risen in explanation upon the administration
of may late lamented brother. The Noble Lord in the
course of his remarks has alluded to circumstances which
have arisen, not momentarily, not from yesterday, but from
a long course of esents, which have been urging on the
consideration of the great measure of to-day, and the things
which have now been brought under our view bring to
light circumstances that prove, if the Noble Duke will al-
low me to say so, that he possesses information at this
time which at former periods he was deficient in.
—(Hear, hear, hear, hear.)--On these points I shall take
the liberty of saying that for twenty years I have had the
honour of a seat in the Lower House, I have uniformly
been against admission to the Roman Catholics. But, my
Lords, I do not see so distinctly as some enlightened Noble
Lords do, the dangers which are likely to ensue from the
admission of Roman Catholics into power. On the other
hand I uniformly thought the carrying of this question
would not so immediately produce that which its warmest
.upporters are anxious to attribute to it.—(Hear, hear.)—
But, my Lords, at last I have thought, and thought
rightly I believe, that that circumstance has been greatly
produced by. the carrying of this measure, for it will be
followed by other measures producing still greater ad-
vantages. My Lords, what makes me more of this opinion
is, that the circumstances which the Noble Lord mentioned,
I mean particularly the circumstance of a divided Cabinet,
I do not enter into the circumstances, but it plainly ap-
pears by what the Noble Lord said just now, that much
difference prevailed in the appointment of the Secretary,
he having evidently made it appear how difficult it was to
make an appointment that would produce entire satisfaction.
My lords, having been myself connected with public
affairs I its sure that great anti enormous must those diffi-
culties be in the time of a divided cabinet. What, my
!Ards, was the consequence ? Almost always, when a
question with respect to Ireland was agitated something
occurred to put a stop to its discussion. If Thad arisep in the
spirit with which the Noble Lord rose, perhaps I might
lieve addressed the Hpuse in the same feelings of irritation.
I believe that dui ing the 14 years Lord Liverpool presided
over the Administration he did all in his power that he
considered would be beneficial to the empire, with-
out reference to any private feelings whatever,
or to the opinions of those who did not accord with him.
In saying this, my Lords, I think I hare a right to assert
that it is due to his memory, I lead almost said to his
great name.—(Hear, hear.)—l am extremely glad to
have had the opportunity given fur explaining: Ido not
mean to enter at lafge into the subject. This question
has been discessed by many Learned Virelates with great
force, and great learning, riled with that I shall leave it to
the+o, ;ate fled as I am, that there is no danger to the
Irish Clergy by the meaeuse gow to be proposed. lyith
respect to the Church of England, it stands on
too great an eminence, it is guarded by too
,ieeene a bulwark ever to be effected by a me I-
sure tins g I wanted any proof of this, I
have only to look at the petitions that nave Mien maid
upon your Lordships' table, not t'alting into ceiiislderatioti
i tag !rarn7r in which sonic of them have been up, but
looking to them for the puti.4e of seeing the 4ispo,sition of
of Englan4. In them you view the
e
ftelChurch of England end the solidity of
15nleze yqu see gll these affection, and feel-
ingsbroke down, it is impossible to consider the Church
can be in danger. I wished, my Lords, for an opportunity
Of explaining myself. If I have shown to your Lordships
that Lord Liverpool's station during these periods was one