The Sun.
London, England, 1842-06-04 00:00:00

'SUER tai-
Alea, • e House having resolved itself into Committee of
‘‘.•l and Aleans. Mr. GREENE in the Chair.
as 1..1 • PAH K ER presented a petition from the Sheffield
1ri71.-Corn-Law Association, praying for a further reduction
.•.. the Sugar Duties.
rii.llr. MARK PHILIPS presented a petition from the
Chamber of Commerce at Manchester, to the same effect.
.:‘;TheCHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he rose
1:411 upon the House to make that provision for the supply
tiltEtlie sear,
which was derived from the Sugar Duties. b
Members of the House who had the advantage of hVarillA
7 q's financial statements of his Right Hon. Friend at the
• ,rtomencement of the Session, it could not be matter of
utrbtthe H
s tooutslei.e course lie was about to recommend
It was his intention to move
that the present Sugar Duties should be continued
Z" another year. It wond have been gratifying to himself if
a, emdd, eonsistently with the finances of the country, have
"Ptrd another course. He should have beets happy if he
twld have recommended to the Hottae to have admitted sugar,
.Produce of fussier, countries and the colonies, at a lower
•I'lte-(4 duty, and thereby have given an advantage to the con-
just'? e.r arid th‘ e foreign trade. The same circumstances which
.',4ou,induced him last year to resist the proposition of the Right
;11. o. Gentleman the Member for Portsmouth, would prevent
ro IrateiimtlTony submitting to the House any proposition of a
r
i nature. His own opinion A, that whenever any el-
.:ation AV,
be made in the sugar duties it must—in order
i ,
in conformity with the general interests, be made in such
_itanner as to make a great reduction in the amount of the
rteral duty payable on the importation of sugar, retaining at
tarns
time a discriminating duty in favour of the colones.
. Jaredwasipoe to deal with this question, unless the II ouse wss
tt to make a great sacrifice of revenue, and without the
,sihi,!,lonment of many ofthe reductions on articles of consumption
sna•:sh, wad been recently proposed it would be impossible to
ft large a sacrifice of revenue as would be necessary for
' eDinion !echo:Oen of the sugar duties. Many persons might be of
that it would be advisable to reduce the duties on
she 'it titsar, but although he believed that the supply from
_eulonies would be fully adequate to meet the emends of
:"alttre, y, t until he should be satisfied that our colonies
d send us a large surplus supply, he could riot consent to a
• . !ekredtiction of the duty on colonial sugar, because he was
Riliefueusive that a large sacrifice of revenue might be made
are tut any benefit whatever to the consumer, as unless there
large surplus supply, the benefit of any reduction would
vi.eillitidtub the pockets of the producer alnne. He thought it
e equally objectionable to reduce the duty on foreign
tssult_ar• On that subject he adhered to the opinion he had ex-
Waled last. year that great moral and political questions were mix-
- %twll hthatprooosal which required the gravest consitteration.
isgl;' °HI .not consent to a reduction of the duty on foreign
reg. a'abile they had no concession from other countries eith
stsii-r!.% to slavery. He could not consent to give up the in-
laa'ent for achieving that for which they had so hog
liwuared, and which he believed they were nearer effecting
• ssaaawlthall when he last addressed them. The British market
ecia ° one to which it was most desirable for slave-holding
otries to obtain admission, and within a recent period it hail
• . ttecoss„
)et treore an object with them, in consequence of the
ti...._-teased rate of duty put on foreign sugar by the countries of
ai47Pei France, Russia, and the German League. The
!„,,L-f"hOltling communities were therefore more prepared than
..
f°,o, to make sacrifices to obtain admission to the British
'res. 14re t• - He thought it would be gratifying to those who
itiC!..-mterested in the suppression of the slave trasle, that in
siier'rUreign Possessions from which they expected to derive
.hiter suPPlles of sugar, there was a disposition manifested of
iSsini:aand it was particularly apparent in Cuba, against the cot!-
' siillt* of the slave-trade. It was impossible to read the public
" sstiseattsmemsiand papers issuing from the press, without coming
, la.ebecluaion. In those colonies, where formerly no per-
t - "" ictiaald
•.• inttrani eapruss an opinion adverse to the slave trade, the
eti,,77- that would result from its extinction was now freely
• s'sd one of the arguments they used against slavery,
fro hat It would bring large tracts of country into cultivation,
• .. • shit.kbWhich sugar Would be produced, so as to compete with
°ld 'ule'ar-groivingeountries. He nett ish to detain the House
• eiiiutht aeuments. There was one, however, with which he would
• e them. In a letter from the Governor of Cuba, dated
a'll, to the Iloine Government, he stated that a spirit hostile
che slave trade had risen up there, so practical in its eha-
. sj; .'", as to induce many planters to seek for tree labourers for
I:Air estates, instead of makiug use of slaves ; and that seve-
eihi`iisetlasions on the subject had arisen on the part of periodi-
sh •.kn the capital city of the island. He (the Chancellor of
aoiritcavvehequer) fou.nd, by
.the latest information, that that
• lase as progressively going on in the colony. By the
itOdespatehes, he found that the Governor had prevented
-.lll_iralidalent introduction of slaves into the colony. He stated
~J'e facts as confirmatory of the views which he had taken on
• ais.,.‘tilts aubjeet,' on w.former occasion. They ought not to admit
4lve-grown produce of that country to the benefit of the
.4.l‘ta,4lsh market, for, by so .doing, they gave a motive. to inte-
sii."- Oaf rties to oppose the growing spirit of liberality in Cuba.
s„.. ssil or-theso reasons, therefore, that he could not recom •
Ad to the House, during the present year, to relax the duties
t.: • sePPa the sugar of foreign possessions. He had already stated
reasons why he thought it inexpedient, without a relaxation
, those duties,lo Make any reduction in the duty on colonial
7:t4;it:agat- The only alternative which was open to him, therefore,
L ~7aato recommend to the House to continue the present duty
or another year. In making this proposal, he had the satis-
41th, Jactlon to feel that Ile was not taking a step which would be
akel•;,t iourious to -the consumers of sugar in this country. His Right
e„ us Friend stated, on -a former occasion, that from every
taiso •40count he could then obtain of the prospects of the production
slittses4ll•saa• in our possessions, he had reason to believe that the
;NI aapotP4roduction would, during the current year, be amply sufficient
aoafford a more than large supply for all parts of this country.
't-sc•., (Hear.) To those statements, which his Hon. Friend made,
, from subsequent information, might add his confirmation ;
and he believed from all the accounts he had received, whether
ikt
~frem India on the one hand, where the growth of sugar had
:increased, or whether from the Mauritius, where the annual
!14; production had been for some time past increasing, and where
Ailey had the means of labour not possessed by those hitherto
„ sellout states; or whether they looked to the West Indies, where
they had hall .a fortunate season, and where the drought of
t., former years had been superseded by the most genial weather
'tei';',,-si-he believed, taking those three sources of supply, that they
le- ,Would have 2-10,000 tons of sugar for the supply of the year.
The quantity consumed during the last year was 200,000 tons,
,;elabich was the largest consumpoon ever known in this country.
They had before them the prospect of an abundant supply.
'hat,
with respect also to the price. Could it be maintained
•,lhat, at the present moment, the price was too high ? They
„'nevr, in the course of last year, that the price was the same as
•,liillatt now, •lt was 365. in 1841 ; and it was 365. now. The
• s use would form an erroneous view of the actual price, if they
;ark it 'from the average of this year, as compared with the
i-• • eta-Oe of last year. With respect to the average of the last
' •: tars it was known that there was in the market, at the time, a
' • a::: Proportion of most inferior sugar. The 365., then, of last
ithe -Must be considered as much higher than 365. now, when
ASitaltar in the market was of a very superior quality.
• esphitt price, they found that the rate of consumption o as
• ProaLia any antecedent year, with an almost equally certain
atat,7e, t of supply at, the present moment, tu the amount
‘• the `,14•, There was no reasonable ground to apprehend that
Or bi.r.riee would be such as to interfere with the consumption,
,Of ir"Yent the enjoyment of that article by the inferior classes
},ti
It must be gratifying to every one to know that
.;ltl'ctlitv 'Were able loprovide amply for the wants of the commu••
4414„'4,11c1 that they could provide for an extension of the eon-
'' Asia tan, without infringing the principle which tae country
"1e,..14,:ara; -,l°r SO many years contended, the suppression of the
sa liliteraste and slavery. It was on these grounds that
'llitisittltated the House would concur in ahe resolution with
<isi,'4,4l.h he should conclude. He was quite aware that on that
otea.,74i'M he was to bemet by two distinct opposing parties.
t -11 e
fr°
Bath, d the
iss r al the Hon. Gentleman the Member for an
tte''`k!leseertlal the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Labou-
Assisi' It Was not Isis intention to go into the arguments
east l!' to be used by those Hon.- Gentleman. He had stated
Aisstiretami which appeared to him to render it desirable to con-
uQ
ta,.4114 the duties as they were at present. He did not feel that
'1 e,.:911.111:ere in a situation to cause any further risk to the revenue
• Iteaii7 emir se of the present year. He did not think that they
"
the 3:3olfied in throwing away the chance of concession on
..-fq;iiseiee„surtiect of slavery by foreign countries. Under all thesa
r'a•eti,";sitlatances. he could nut think but that the House would
tsass,Cet that the sugar duties should be continued for the pre-
-" Ile should, therefore, move that the sugar dutii s
• 'talled•—(Cheers.)
Ie::WATERFORD ELECTION COMMITTEE.
eilir House resumed for the purpose of .
atd GRANVILLE NOMERSET moving, that Lord
•dlttittmt who was now in the custody of the Sergeant- at-
-1404' would be discharged on payment of his fees.
Th. •
following Members were sworn in to try the petition
sssAttlst the late return of Members for the City of Waterford :
14r:r' Jervis, Captain Boldero, Mr. Dundas, Capt. A'Court,
C144;541 11.1. Vivian, Viscount Somerton, and Mr. Hogg
VAYS AND MEANS—SUGAR DUTIES.
aa,o" House again resolved itself into a Committee of Ways
Melon
Th •
•e Motion of the CHANCELLOR of the E KCHEQUER
matrive to the Sugar Duties having been put,
4;4'^ls 'Um,: ROEUC &Aid that by the move he had to bring
ta ea' the consideration, of the Committee,n he only proposed
4, at ,AeibrirY out the principle that the people of this country should
Neks`f 'hat etu get every important commodity in the cheapest market.
'he at *as the general principle of policy which he believed it
ntntii,,rn°st universally admitted that we should pursue.
.He
141121 t, itet- "2 discussing ibat principle, as it related to the subject
'4 sti:t`4ately under their notice, feel it his duty to grapple with
•
4 04 is V of the arguments adduced by the Right Hon. Gentleman
Itisi"4 atet,7ks°lls for deviating from that ordinary rule of policy. in
hltif'°g the s übj ect he had various interests to consider. He
s shies toi COnsider the consumer in this country ; he had
1441'114 -61',4 consider our colonial interests; and then he had to
a:eort of exotic argument, pressed into the matter for
1:Ica Iffast'l7'atlurpose of. the re it, n_amely, the question of
Y• In considering these three classes he would refer to
'..4i.i4111:-;;'Segettilartll the order he had stated. No pet son would doubt that
that one of the most important articles, and one of the
eestatr'r necessaries of life in the present state of
.soc,iets iii this
• ,'ltta ea), Y ; anti if he wanted a proof of this, he might. rtes ate that
i,,ltYCleekt.el.l°,ur millions of hundreds weight were consumed in the
~ie:ltveas.'""i by the people. The cost of that, exclusive of duty,
astai',74oething like between seven and eight millions, and in
-”ls'lAtheZ(M. to-that there was levied on it four millions. So that
if;;,„;;;;;petdedmeY ooneidered the enormous wealth and capital ex.
isa 4s. tets„un this article, he could not take it at less than
•'4,4,taft' Stitt usirnas There needed, therefore, nothing more than to
suet sugar was not only an article of the utmost
iss4hOi, eute7tiartee but one of primary necessity. He would not now
et" Oe vie into that wade question, but, looking at it. in a moral point
4alts• :the peol'", It was an article that tended to in.prove the morals of
is.4lze. upp,„ j'lei as it induced habits of sobriety, and was altogether
t` `ports to the consumption of spirits. lt was also of great in-
the nee in another point of view. He was anxious to raise
the moral desires of the people,and do all that he could to make
tn ha
• Point afPPY• Looking at the subject in a moral and fiscal
- Itrou s view, it was one of the most important that could be
1,0,g0t before the House. Such bents; the case, let them
Pr4et the losses sustained by the people in consequence of the
ko,ed rate of duties. It appeared from a taper
the aver by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that in 1841
' theige Price of colonial sugar was 495. per cwt., while
als.
averageprice of foreign sugar from Brazil and Cuba was
Peopfe tats Now, he would not take the loss to the British
'11:•/ it t 28'* a cwt., he would only reckon it at 20s. a cwt.
gal leen was clear, taking it at only 20s. a cwt., that the eo-
triot: England had, in the year 5841, paid four millions of
• •Y more than they need have paid, for the purpose of ob-
i thbilly„.. e tame quantity of sugar.—( Hear, hear.) It was a
111 e,, 0f figures. This sugar had cost 493.
CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—No, no. 455.
4111 'ao r• ROF.BUCK The Hon. Gentleman said 435. Be it
'44 " it made
ss°l' he di I no difference to his (Mr. Roebuck's) argument,
..tnot take the loss at 2)5., which it would be at the
ig•ht
end; ,f, n• Gentle
)04,ti paid '„eing it at oos.,
man's showing—he only took it at 205.,
he repeated that the peoi le of England
f, %el 41as "mr millions (
s, oeit it f 0. money more than they could have ob-
i • or elsewhere•
"v. I'll , • He should wish to tear some expla-
% Rog
siand 5.--.ne should like to know what benefit the people
derived front that expenditure ? Hon. Gentlemen
• -Ther voujl,ltight saY, that if they were to lower the duty,
ffraise the price of Ilrazilian and Cuba sugar.
arobanltiY•eurt. of that would be to lessen that benefit by that
Raid did; I_,n take it at one half. Say the people of England
Riat°Heohlialf more than they ought to pay, he would ask
he Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
would ask
would whole Government, he would ask the Houses
Punr Ise° , ail in authority, why they should impose on the
Orea Pie of this counts --for it was the poor who were the
se.whitirt (..onsumers of suga)r—a tax of two millions per annum?
advantage was derived from it ?—( Hear, hear.) Oh

said the night Hon- Gentleman, there is the inter-colonial
principle to support, which being interpreted into or inary
phraseology, meant that the people of this country were to pay
the West India proprietors two millions per annum. Was
the House of Commons prepared to tax the people of EnFlasre
two millions per annum for the benefit of the West India
proprietors? Oh ! it was not for the benefit of the prop' ietors, hut
of the slavess of the inhebit ants of the West Indies. He denird
this altogether 1 it did not at all benefit the slaves ; it went
entielety into the pockets of the proprietors. And now he
time to that shadow of an argument. which was pressed into
the service of gentlemen opposite for the purpose of bolstering
up a sinister interest. He always observed that when some
sinister interest was to be supported, a plausible kind
of argument was generally resorted to. Thus when
it watt %vented to keep up the price of bad timber, they were
told of their navy and their mercantile marine, and to keep up
the tax on sugar, they were told of encouraging the slave trade.
Now, he would say broarily from the statement of those most
conversant with the, subject, and who had taken a great part
in the opposition to the slave trade, that all their quixotic
attempts on this subject had been attended with mischief and
not with good. He would state on the authority of Sir Fowell
Buxton, that the importa ion of slaves into South America,
had not increaeed, but that there was a larger exportation
from Africa ; that they had not. prevented the mischief of the
importation, hut they had increased the misery of the middle
pas=age. When the French people thought they had got a
great idea in their revo'ution, they tried their propaganda;
there was then a great outcry raised against it. ; it was
said they had no right to force their notions on other coun-
tries, arid to become the Quixe-es of the earth.
And as a matter of argument what was the dif-
ference between political relations and social ones ?
Certain persons formed the op.ninn that the slave trade was
mischievous. He agreed with them in that opinion. Ile
agreed with them that it was immoral, and ought to be put
down. But there was another epinion he shared in common
with the propaganda of France—that it was no part of the bu-
siness of one nation to propagate any opinions, as a nation, on
another. The reason he said this was, that if it was once admitted
as a principle, there was no line to he drawn where they were
to stop. if to-day they put a stop to the slave trade, to-mor-
row they might put a stop to slavery itself. The sea was nut
theirs, and to assert supremacy thereon was as wild as if they
said to the Americans that they should put down slavery there.
He knew that by stating those opinions he was subjecting
himself to much imputation. hut he was too accustomed to that.
to mind it now. After a speech delivered by an Hon. Gentlemen
with regard to the mode of proceeding by the Government on
the subject of the Corn-law, he did not think he was unchari-
table in believing that this cry was laid hold of as a con-
venient one for the purpose of exciting the people of this country
against the late Government, and taking advantage of a very
noble and benevolent feeling which pervaded their bosoms for
the purpose of furthering a particular party.—( Hear.) lie
believed that if those duties were maintained it would not be
because the Government did not believe them mischievous—
not because they were not mischievous—in everything cruel
and grinding to the poor—but because they were bound as a
party, for the purposes of party, and for saving, apparently, their
own consistency, to maintain them.—( Hear, hear.) He now
came back to his original position, and he asked the Committee
and the Right Honourable Baronet to point out to him
how it w is that the benefit in prospective which be
expected, namely, to induce the Governments of South
America to join with him in putting down the slave trade.
was any justification to them or to the poor of this country
for taxing them to the amount of 2.000,0001. per ahnum
The Right Hon. Gentleman said that it could not be the inte-
rest of this country to admit f reign sugar, till they hail ob-
tained some guarantee for the suppression of the slave trade,
by the countries from which we were to derive that sugar. He
( Mr. Roebuck) believed that if we were to consent to trade
with those people, we would have a more cogent influence on
them than we could otherwise have. It was remarkable that
the Right Hon. Gentleman had not dwelt en any question but
the advantage to be derived from withholding commercial in-
tercourse with those people. Those who argued in tavour of
monopoly, on the ground that it prevented the horrors of the
slave trade, only showed that misplaced benevolence was as
mischievous as malevolence in its effects. He would conclude
by moving that all duty on foreign sugar be reduced to 245, per
cwt., the duty on colonial sugar.
The CH A IRMAN having put the question,
Mr. GODSON said that he would not go into the question
relative to the slave trade, or to the policy laid down by the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, but would confiee himself en-
tirely to the two propositions put forward by his Hon. and
Learned Friend, relative to their going to the cheapest market,
and what would be the effect of the present measure en free
labour in the West Indies. He did not think that the propo-
sition would be the means of reducing the prices, as the sugar-
growing countries would impose a duty upon the export of
sugar immediately the present competition was abolished.
With respect to the West India slave peasantry, our abolishing
the competition must necessarily reduce their wages.
Mr. GLADSTONE said he thought the general feeling of
the Committee was to go into the question upon the motion of
the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite. This was not out of
disrespect. to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, but his motion
was one of a peculiar nature, going a great length, which
perhaps, few Members of the Committee would follow.
Hon. Gentleman said the onus was laid upon the Chancellor of
the Exchequer to show why the retention of the sugar
duty ought to be supported against the rules of
trade. What were the rules of trade ? When
there was a producing interest at home, it was affected
by the duty on a competing country. In France, Germany,
and America, the ditty had been considerably increased. Ile
did not think the Hon. and Learned Gentleman in any country
would find those imaginary rules to exist to which he had re-
ferred. A strong protective interest had certainly sprung up,
and it would be most inconsistent in that House suddenly to
withdraw that protection, as proposed by the Hon. Gentleman.
He did not think the Hon. Gentleman could find a dozen Mein-
bers of that Committee who would lee prepared to go to such
an extent. He was sure the desire of some protection in the
case of sugar was as great as the desire for protection in any
other article. He could not think that the House was prepared
tte Hon.ohmak Gentlemaneanye
xceptiopnrotopotld,other general rules, so sudden as
in favour of sugar.
Mr. COBDEN said that one of the main objections to the
proposal of his Hon. Friend (the Hon. Member for Bath) was,
that they should not, by abolishing the duty upon sugar, afford
an encouragement to slavery. But the opponents of the propo-
sal did not carry out their own principle, for, under the system
which now existed, and which they were advocating, we trafficked
with the Brazils and other countries,whose produce we exchanged
for our commodities. During the six years which had elapsed
from 1835 to 1840 inclusive, this country had paid 20,000,000 e
more tor sugar than it would have paid if we had been enabled
to buy sugar in foreign markets. Now that was as nearls as
possible the amount of the • goods sold during the period in
question to the inhabitants of the West Indies; and they
might therefore conclude that they would have lost nothing by
opening the trade in sugar, and at. the same time making our
colonies a present of all the goods they had purchased from us.
He thought. the change proposed by his Hon. Friend the Mem-
ber for Bath was founded upon every principle of justice. It
could not be said that the colonies had any peculiar claim
upon the mother country, for they derived many benefits from
their connection with us. There was another vote for the
Bishops, all of which was to be paid out of the taxes on the
people; there was another tax for the light-houses, and also
for troops. It might be all very well for those out of trade not
to think of this, but tradesmen wished to know how all this
was incurred. There was no plea whatever for a differential
duty. The manufacturers were ready to give up all protection,
and he would undertake to bring the whole manufacturing iii-
terest of the country to agree to such a proposition, and they
would thank them for it. He would, in conclusion, only say,
that he hoped they would not persevere toe long.
After a short conversation the Committee ditided upon Mr.
Roebuck's proposition to reduce the duty to 245., when there
appeared—
For Mr. Roebuk's motion
Against it...
Majority against. the motion
Mr. L ABOUCHERE said he was not able to concur in
the motion of the Hen. and Learned Member for Bath. He
could not justify it t.o himself, after a system of protection
had been acted upon in this country for a great length of time,
to remove that protection suddenly and at once. But the
Hon. Gentleman had truly stated that that was the principle
on which they always acted. He could not believe that any
class in the country had an interest in doing injustice to another
class. If he held that to be true with regard to the mother
country, not the less would he apply it to the colonies. His
principle had always been to do away with those monopolies
and restrictiens which did no good to any class.
The proposal was to keep up the present duties on sugar, and
he should move, as an amendment, that the duty on foreign
sugar should be reduced to 30s. per cwt., and on colonial
sugar to 20s. per cwt. They had had an avowal from the
First Minister of the Crown, that it was highly important the
price of articles of consumption should be reduced. This prin •
ciple had not been fully carried out in their measures. He
would not say that nothing had been done to this end in the
tariff; but what haul been effected had been lamentably small.
The good it would de would rather be by the indirect increase
it would give to employment, than from any actual reduction in
the price of articles of consumption. With the exception of
coin, there was no article on which, by substituting a
reasonable duty, they could so materially add to the
com'ert of the people. The price of corn would probably be
much the same under the change of the law, but there was
the greatest difference between the price of sugar here and on
the Cunt nent. Unless some clear and solid reason could be
shown to the contrary, it was the duty of the House to make
such alterations in the sugar duties, as would secure to the
people an adequate supply of an article so necessary to their
comfort at a moderate rate. Before proceeding further, he
would shortly advert to the history of the sugar trade for the
last ten years. Up t.o that period, although our own colonies
had theoretically the monopoly of the supply of sugar to this
country, yet practically, the British consumer had not felt
the evils of that monopoly, because the supply from the
British colonies being much greater than could be absorbed
by the home market, the surplus was exported to foreign
countries, and the price in the British market was consequently
governed by the price in the, foreign market. Within the last
ten years, however, the supply from onr own colonies had
greatly fallen off, and the sugar cultivation of foreign countries
had extended. Our markets were scantily supplied. We paid
a much higher price than foreign nations, and practically ex. e-
atieneed all the evils of the monopoly. Its 1829, the question
of the sugar duties had been brought before the House by
Lord Glenelg, then Mr. Grant. and Mr. Huskisson. Mr.
Grant's proposition was that the duty on foreign sugar should be
285., on East India sugar 255., and on West India sugar 20s.
a cwt., so that the only difference which Mr. Grant and Mr.
Huskisson proposed to make between foreign and British colo-
nial sugar was the difference between '2Bs. and 20s. the cwt.
Mr. Grant accompanied that proposal by a 'most re-
markable declaration, namely, that Mr. Huskisson and
himself, as members of the Cabinet of the Duke of Wel-
lington, had submitted that proposal to their colleagues
in that Cabinet, and no objection whatever haul been
made to the principle which had been fully admitted, that the
only . objection had been one of revenue, and that, on the
ground of that objection, the proposition had been postponed
for a year, and Mr Grant had expressed his great disappoint-
ment-that the then Chancellor of the Exchequer, who at pre-
sent held the same office, had not proposed some alteration in
the sugar duties. The Right Hon. Gentleman had opposed
the motion solely on the ground et revenue—he had admitted
the principle contended for by Mr. Grant. Ile ( Mr. Labou-
chere) would admit, that since that period colonial slavery
had been abolished, but the Chancellor of the Exchequer
mainly rested his opposition now on the ground that. a reduc-
tion of the duty would encourage the slave trade. The Right
lion. Gentle an drew a distinction between slavery and the
slave trade, and surely that objection could have been urged as
forcibly against. Mr. Grant's proposeion as against the ?resent
one. In 1831 the great measure of negro emancipation was
carried, arid it was generally felt that there ought to be an un-
willingness, immed.ately atter such a change had been made in
the social cons ition of our West India colonies, to do anything
that should disturb the working of the new.system. On that
ground alone had the sugar duties remained undisturbed. not
from any idea that the alteration of those duties wou'd en-
courage the slave trade, but from the necessity whieh existed
for allowing breathing time to the colonies, atter such a great
change had been imposed on them by the mother country.
This, he apprehended, was the sole and sufficient reason why
Pailiament should interfere with the sugar duties. It was
upon this ground, two years ago, that be (Mr. L.) resisted a
motion made by his Hon, Friend the Member for Wigan, stating,
however, at the same time, that he rested his opposition, riot
upon a question of principle, but solely on a question of time.
lie would remind the House that his Noble Friend, Lord
Sydenham, some years ago, distinctly stated to the country
. that in his opinion it would be absolutely necessary to consider

the sugar duties with a view to their alteratio He (Mr. La-
bouchere) recollected that when he was in Liverpool, three
-mass ego. a eery respectable deputation waited upon him, with
torn Sydenham's speech in th'it hands, and with an expression
of great alarut, they said that they hoped that he was not ping
to adopt the plan of his predeeessor. He was not able to give
them any satisfactory assurance of this, and the gentlemen let
him anything bat satisfied. He recollected that when the
Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Portsmouth brought.
forward his proposition with respect to the sugar duties, that
the Chancellor of the Exchequer said, that they were taking the
interests concerned by surprise, and he could not, therefore, help
making this statement to the House of Commons. He then
thought it necessary to give the West Indian interest hreatlimg
time, after the great experiment of negro emancipation; but
the time was now come when, in justice to the people of this
country—in justice even to those protected interests them-
selves—it was right anti fitting that the Parliament should
consider the subject with a view to its alteration. It was in
accordance with this opinion that the Government., of which
he had had the honour of being a Member, brought fora ar.l
their proposition last year, but which, unfortunately, did net
meet with the support of the Legislature, He thought the
reasons which existed last year for this step, existed with the
same force now. It must be recollected that this was a ques-
tion distinguished from the other interests in the country.
They had had lately alterations made in the commercial
system for the general benefit of the community ; but still
they could not hide from themselves the fact, that.
certain protected interests had been deprived of the protection
they had hitherto enjoyed. He held that every interest they
had so effected, had a right to complain, unless they dealt in the
same manner with the sugar producing interest. It was on
this ground tha die complained of the course pursued on the sub-
ject of the Corn-laws which applied to the prohibiting
duty on sugar. But they were told that the present state of
the sugar trade, and the present prices of sugar were satisfac-
tory, arid that they might rest perfectly content to leave things
as they were die preceding year ; that no great practical evil
could possibly accure by delaying tha alteration of the sugar
duties, at least for the present year. He must say, that when
he looked to the figure's, he did not find that. those figures bore
out the statement of Gentlemen opposite on this subject. Ile
began with prices. The Right Hon. Gentleman, the Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer, told them that sugar was at a low price.
He (Mr. Labouchere) thought the Aight. Hon. Gentleman
must have spoken rather in his capacity as West India pro-
prietor, than as Chancellor of the Exchequer when he said this;
but it. certainly was not at all satisfactory to the people of Eng-
land. He (Mr. Labouchere) supposed from the statement of
the Right Hon. Gentleman, that there had been a great and
sudden fall in prices. lie ( Mr. L. ) found that from the Gazette
of the 25th of alay, the last week, in the last month, that the
price of West India Muscavado sugar in bond, was 395. 51d.; at
the same period of last year, it was 385.,2id., being rather more
than Is. per cwt. difference in the corresponding period. Ile
would take a wider range. He found that in January, the ave-
rage price was 48s. 101,4 d., February 375., March 395. 2id., in
April 38s. 114 d., and in Max, the first week, 41s. lid. ; so
that it would appear that the whole of this year's pricea had
ranged high, and that they were not sat istacte r at the present
moment. There was also anott:er point. Heyiield this to be
the result of the plan on which the sugar market was supplied.
There was now continued violent alteration in price, but extend
the rnarlset and the effect would be steadiness of price. Rut
what he considered as the more important part of this question
wag, the actual price of sugar in this country a' compared with
the sugar in other countries. By that would be shown what
were the burdens on the people of this country by means
of the sugar laws, and the great disadvantages they were
under compared to their foreign rivals. He believed that
Porto Rico sugar might reasonably come into fair
competition with British Indian Muscovado sugar. Now
the prise of Porto Rico sugar he believed at this
moment to be about 19s. or 205., being as nearly as possible
one half the price of West India sugar of the same quality. Of
course the difference between 19s. and 395. w s taken by the
prohibitory system on the supply and consumption of sugar.
The next point to which the Chancellor of the Exchequer
adverted was the probable supply of sugar for the present year.
He told them he was quite certain of an ample supply of sugar,
and that there was no fear but that the people would•be abun-
dantly supplied. He (Mr. Labouchere) had not the same
means of information as the Chancellor of the Exchequer had s
but he had, however, attempted, by such means as he bad access
to, to come to some coarclusion on the question, and from these
he was not disposed to form any sanguine expectations of the
supply of sugar. He hell in his hand what he believed to be a
correct statement of the importations of late years, and he
found that from the West Indies there came in the f-cur first
months of 1841, viz. from the sth of January to sth May,
314,000 cwt. of sugar ' • and in 1842, '240,000 cwt. only came.
He found that, of Mauritius sugar, in 1841, was imported
303,006 cwt. ; and, in 1842, 244,000 cwt. Of British Indian
sugar there was a still more remarkable falling off, for, in the first
four months of 1841, the importation was 483,000 cwt. ; and,
in 1842, 296,000 cwt. during the same period. If they com-
pared the quantity of sugar in bond which paid duty, and was
introduced for consumption in the first four months of 1841,
with the same period of 1842, they would find a small increase
in the present year. In 1841, the amount was 1,100 to 2,000
cwt. ; and, in 1842, the amount was 1,146 cwt., so that it
was quite clear that there had been a large drawing on the
stock, and it was obvious that that stock must have been dimi-
nished, by 320,000 cwt., since the last year ; and that what-
ever would be consumed this year, of course, would make the
stock so much less than it was last year. He also found that
this was confirmed by a document which was entitled to consi-
deration. It was the circular of Messrs. Truman and Cooke,
who were generally supposed to furnish accurate information.
This circular was written for the purpose of being sent by the
overland despatch to their correspondent in India, and dated the
Ist of January. ( The Right Hon. Gentleman then read a short
extract from the Circular, from which it appeared that the
stock since the same time last year had decreased to the amount
of 12,000 tons.) Therefore it appeared that the stock at that
moment was 12,000 less than the corresponding period of the year
before. He (Mr. Labouchere) could not help remarking the
altered st ate of the arguments used by Hon. Gentlemen °pro-
site arid those used last year.— ( Hear, hear.) They had
seemed to have pressed all the arguments they could into their
service. For instance, one argument last year was that they
(the Opposition) wereeareful of the interests of the inhabitants
on the banks of the Amazon, but they forgot the interests of the
hundreds of millions of their fellow-countrymen, who lived on
the banks watered by the Ganges. Th-at was the argioneet
used last year, but it would not do now. They had heard that.
which would be entirely inconsistent with this argument from
gentlemen opposite in the course of the discussion on com-
mercial subjects, because these monopolies were not even
good for those who were said to be benefited by them.
He was told that interests had risen up under those pro-
tecting duties, but those interests would soon find that
their foundation was not substantial. There was an-
other reason why he thought these sugar duties should
not continue. He referred to the Bill introduced by the Right
Hon. the Vice-President of the Board of Trade, which would
make a very material alteration in the West Indies with regard
to the cultivation of sugar—he meant the Colonial Passengers
Bill. It bore a close resemblance to a measure he (Mr. La-
bouchere) had had the honour to introduce, and he felt that
when this Bill passed it would be highly injurious to maintan
the restrictive system in the West Indies, and, at the same time,
subject them to foreign competition with regard to the staple
article of the country • therefore, both on that account and on
general principles, and the consideration of justice to the West
Indies, he had felt it to be his duty to introduce that measure.
which he rejoiced to see had been adopted and brought forward
by gentlemen opposite. But, in doing this, they were giving
an important boon to the West Indies. He found this
subject treated with especial attention by a Committee
which sat upon the West Indian colonies in 1831. He found
a passage in the Report of that Committee relating to those re-
strictions. (The Right Hon. Gentleman then lead an extract
from the Report of this Committee, from which it appeared that
the annual charge upon the colonies was 1,392,0001. ) This was
a charge upon the articles of life, and, conse-
quently, every article was a great price. Thfs was
not natural, for Jamaica,was not far distant from the Mississippi,
and the Chesapeake. He trusted soon to see Jamaica, instead
of being the deareut place in the world, one of the cheapest to
live in. He then came to what he believed the main objec-
tion gentlemen opposite advanced to the proposition he had
brought forward. Ile meant the encouragement it would give
to slavery. Now he hoped he was not insensible to that argu-
ment. If he really believed that it was substantial, however
much importance he attached to the question of these duties
being discontinued, he would opvose it. But he could not be-
lieve that the country was called upon to submit to this impost
for the purpose of using the influence—the influence which
England must always possess with the countries of the world,
for the ultimate abolition of that detestable and odious traffic—
the slave trade. He could not believe that they were called
upon to makes that sacrifice with this ohject.—( Hear, hear.)
He supposed when gentlemen talked of making treaties with a
foreign country to relax the sugar duty, the Brazils was the
place they meant. Now, what was their position with respect
to the Brazils ? We had now a very advantageous treaty with
Brazils; it was a treaty imposed on them when they were
struggling for independence, and was almost too advantageous
to this country. Our commercial treaty with them was this: they
bound themselves not to impose a duty on any article of British
produce, of more than 15 per cent. ad valorem, anti there was no
corresponding stipulation for the admission of Brazilian arti-
cles into this country ; we only engaged to place their produce
on the most favourable footing we could. This treaty raised
great irritation in the Brazils ; it interfered with all their corn-
tnercial concerns, and stood very much in their way. This
treaty expires, according to us, in 1843 ; according to them,
in 1842. It was undoubtedly of the greatest consequence that,
before it expired, some commercial arrangement of a fair na-
ture should be entered into with that country. He appre-
hended the danger we had to fear was, that they would refuse
to have any commercial treaty with us, but would instead place
on a discriminating duty, which would be favourable to other
countries, but unfavourable to us. That they had threatened
to do, and he was afraid they would. He believed it would be
very untie,irable to put off negotiating with them till the
last moment ; and Honourable Gentlemen opposite said that
this was a reason for delaying the alteration in the sugar
duties. He would meet that objection, by saying that they
would be in a more favourable condition for negotiating wish
the Brazils on c mmercial matters, alter we had made this
alteration in the sugar duties. Government would then be
free to act as they pleased, nothing could prevent them coming
to the House of Commons, and proposing to make a dis•inction
of duty with regard to count ies where slavery prevailed, and
where it did not. He did not say that that was a proper
policy, still it would be open to the Government to adopt it if
they pleased ; and he would say that if they wanted to make
use of the sugar duties as a means whereby to advance our
commercial prosperity, they would be in as ativantageous a situ-
tion to do so after an alteration, as they were now. If he
were right in the view which he took on that point, of course
the arguments used on the other side relative to slave-grown
sugar would tall to the ground. With regard to the West
Lilies, they were told that they must delay this measure ; in
answer to that, be would beg to place the opinion of one who
was often before Committees of that House on questions of
West Indian policy, and who was at the same time the most
ardent, the most able, and the most indefatigable opponent of
negro slavery—he meant Mr Joseph Bevan, who said that an
alteration in the duties would tend, so far from checking the
progress of the Colonies, to render them quite successful
Although the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the
Exchequer rested his. opposition to an alteration of the duties
mainly on thepoint of the encout agement which he said would
bet iven to slavery, he also looked at it as a point of revenue.
He (Mr. Labouchere) was not prepared to deny
that some loss of revenue for a year or two
must be expected, still he believed that there were
no articles on which they could make an experiment of reduc-
tion, with a greater certainty that the revenue would speedily
recover from that reduction, as they could on sugar. There
was none of more extensive consumption, none of which the
consumption had been more obviously checked by high prices
than sugar. and there was none, therefore, with which an expe-
riment might be made with greater safety. He thought the
Hight Hon. Gentleman was quite right in not laying great stress
on the loss of revenue. The motion he made now dif-
fered from the motion of the Government, last year in this. The
duty which he proposed now on foreign sugar was 305., and on
colonial 20s. ; last year it was 365. on foreign and '24s. on colo-
nisi. He need hardly explain the reason for that. I.ast year
their object, was to secure an increase of revenue ; their budget
was based on this, that they must receive a certain revenue
from sugar. and they did not think themselves justified, under
such circumstances, in trying a bolder experiment than they
did. But now they should consider the sugar duties under
altered circumstances ; they had got an Income-tax, and if they
were to have the evils Of an Income-tax, at least let them have
the benefits of it; and here he must say that lie believed that
tax would be much more productive to the revenue than the
Right Han._ (ientleman bad calculated upon ; he thought,