The Sun.
London, England, 1842-02-17 00:00:00

THE sun, LONDON, THURSDAY EVENING►, FEBRUARY 17, 184 k.

Sir G. Grey. Mr. Loch, Mr. J. W. Patten, and Sir. W,
Somerville.
Several petitions, including those from Bridport, Har-
wich, and Sudbury, were then referred to the Committee.
INTERFERENCE OF PEERS IN ELECTIONS.

Mr.THESIGER then rose to bring forward the motion
of which he had given notice, with respect to the right of
Peers to interfere in the election of Members of Parlia-
ment. The question involved points of great interest to
the privileges of that House. It was whether it was com-
petent to a Peer of Parliament to interfere with elec-
tions, by becoming a petitioner against the return of
a Member of that House. The question arose upon
two petitions presented against the late return for Bel-
fast. One of those petitions was presented by Lord
Innishowen, and the other by Archibald Hamilton,
one of the electors of Belfast, but the Noble
Lord was the only person who had entered into
recognizances. The circumstances of the case were
new ; he had not been able to find, upon inquiry, or
by his own research, anything like it. Cases of the pre •
sent kind wore to be decided by principles which
were familiar to them, and no doubt could be enter-
tained as to the course it was necessary to pur-
sue. At the late election for Belfast, a Com-
moner, the son of a Peer, was unsuccessful. There
was no doubt it was competent to the Noble
Lord to come to the House and petition against the
return. But in the present instance, immediately after
the return, and before any petition was presented, the
Noble Lord was called to the House of Peers by the title of
Baron Innishowen and Carrickfergus. It was clear,
that when the Earl of Belfast was called to the Upper
House, he was entirely disqualified from being an elector,
and he could have no personal interest in elections
and any interference would be a breach of the privi-
leges. They were all familiar with the sessional orders
which were passed every Session, _ and which were
the same now as at the time of the Act of
William. That order, after stating that no Peer of the
realm has a right to vote at any_election except those for
Irish Peers, went on to state that it was a high infringement
of the liberties of the Commons for any Lord of Parlia-
ment to concern himself in the election of Members to serve
in Parliament, except only as Irish Peers. There might
be some doubt as to the correct interpretation of that order;
whether it referred merely to the period of election.
But if the Honourable Members would look to the
circumstances of the present case, ' they would
see that the order applied to it ; for it was plain
that if a party applied to that House for the purpose
of voiding an election, what did he but interfere in that
election ? Lord Belfast 'baying been a candidate
could no doubt have petitioned-- against the return
before ho. became a Peer. But no doubt whatever
that he could not petition. now that he had become
a Peer, for it would be an infringement of
their privileges. The moment he was made a Peer the
ground was cut from under him. This appeared to
him to be a matter of importance to the House,
and it was necessary that it should be determined.
He thought it right to say, that the decision of the House
could make no difference whatever with respect to the
inquiry, because there was another petition presented
from the electors, which was a good petition, and the
-rejection of Lord Innishowen's would not prevent the in-
vestigation. He had devoted much attention to the
rules and privileges of the House, and he could
not help thinking this question worthy of their
consideration; but he did not desire to press the
subject more than the House might think the case
required. The House could not be too jealous of its
privileges which were granted, not for the benefit of the
Members themselves, but for that of the country. He
concluded by moving that the. two petitions from Lord
Innishowen and Archibald Hamilton should not be re-
ferred to a Committee.

Mr. RIGBY WASON knew a case which went pari
panic with the case alluded to by the Honourable and
Learned Member. In that case the petitioners bad
entered into recognizances, and had paid witnesses for
their attendance. lle considered it would be extremely
inconvenient if the House were to take cognizance of
these cases. The proper place for considering them was
in Committee, and he considered it would be extremely
irregular for the House to interfere in the pre-
sent instance.—(llear, hear.) If the petition were
referred to the Committee, and that Committee found
that the petitioner was not qualified to present a petition,
the Committee would report that there was no valid pe-
tition against the return, and the sitting. Members would
be declared duly elected.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL suggested that the proper
course to be pursued was to refer the petition to the
Committee.

Sir G. CLERK said that the present was perfectly
a novel case. lie believed that in a reference to the
journals, no case could bo found in which an
unsuccessful candidate at an election, who had

presented a - petition against the return to the House,
had been called up to the House of Peers in the interim
between the presentation and the trial of the petition.
But there were several instances orthe qualifications of
candidates having been under the - consideration of the
house and the Committee, which, though not exactly
the'same, bore a strong analogy to the present case. In
the Honiton case, the election having been declared
void, and no special report having been made to the House,
the candidate returned at the previous election went down
to the second election and was defeated ; he then became
a petitioner. There was nothing on the face of the
petition which would disqualify him from being e.
petitioner ; but the House inquired . whether he
was disqualified or no. In the ' same way in an-
other election, notice was given that the qualifi-
cation should be the: question, and the . Com-
mittee went into the merits of the case, before they
allowed him to go before the House. That applied to
cases where nothing appeared on the face of
the petition. In the Carma+tthen election in 1803,
there were three. petitioners, stated to be freeholders
in the county of Carmarthen, but it did not appear
"en the face of the petition that they were entitled
to vote ; the House had, however, referred the petition
to the Committee ; and in other cases the- House consi-
dered whether the qualification of the electors war Suf-
ficient, showing that the character of the petitioner should
be declared b the House. Could there be any doubt
that George Itemble Chichester, Baron Innishowen, had
been a candidate for the representation of Belfast,
being then a commoner ? Was it possible that Lord
Innishowen could appear before the House in the
character of a petitioner ? He would ask the House
what course it would adopt when a person had petitioned
against a Peer. Would the House allow that Peer to go
before them and defend himself ? Certainly not.
If the person petitioned against is called to the other
House, he was not allowed to appear before the Com-
mittee ; and if this objection appears on the face of
the petition itself, . it was clear that it could not be
referred to the Committee. If there was no other
petition, except that signed by the Noble Lord and
the elector, it could only be taken as the petition
of that individual elector himself. He therefore
thought that this - was an entirely new case, and that
the House would be establishing a very dangerous
precedent, if it, for the first time, referred to the
Committee a petition that bore on the face
of it, that it was signed by, and was the petition of
a Member of the other house of Parliament. He
should certainly vete for the motion of his Hon. and
Learned Friend, that. the petition be not referred to the
Committee.
M. ROEBUCK wished to hare the words of the pe-
tition read, that they might see how the fact appeared
on it. No one in that House knew that Lord InnishoWen
was a Member of the other House of Parliament.
The Clerk read the petition, from the wording of
which it appeared to be the petition of " George K.
w
Chichester, Baron of Innishoen, Carrickfergus, being
the'n a Commoner." -
Mr. ROEBUCK would put it to his Hon. and Learned
Friend who had brought forward the motion, whether
there was anything in the words of that peti*
time, which ought not to go before the Com-
mittee. He wanted to know what there was in that
petition to show that the petitioner was a Peer of the
1..a1m. It was stated in the petition that he wus
a Commoner, but there was nothing in the petition to
show that he was not a Commoner still. But as there
was no evidence of that kind there was no reason 36t
shown why the petition should nut be referred to the
Committee. •
Sir G. CLERK said that that House was cognizant
of the Journals of th„.., House of Lords, and of the Gazettes
both of whieh showed that Lord Inni,showen had been
called to the Peerage. --
Mr. ROEBUCK said that in that MO the proper
course would be to adjourn the disetission Until the Jour-
nals of the HouSe' of Lords or Olt) Gazette had been
consulted. - .. .
An HoN. ...IESIBEIt On the Opposition benches wished
to put t to the 'Speaker whether the point at issue
illi7;et not be acceded by the Committee.
The SPEK AER said question was the whether the
petition of Lord Innishowen was such a breach of the
privileges of the House as mcglit be referred to an Elec•
tion Comniittee. In hio. 'opinion as the question related
to the privileges tli the base, the House itself should
take it into its consideration, and should not refer it to a
Committee.
Mr. WATSON said as this was a matter... requiring
the most serious consideration of theh House, they
the one, candidates
notis'e: to be candidates,
heforetey ca. me to a
a right to be ought to to search for precedents,
decision —(Hear.) There were two _kinds of persons
a right . _
The question was,
dwe'lkomeh add
aatriathetiteoctpioenti,tiNio.hnothhead
,a,hreiguhthewitihvains
tohnee,maenaidlinghatohdfait
no.t
aright to be a candidate
and who declared tithe t
4.,,h;:.1
he not subsequently
the Act to petition the
turned ; , the .other the wee
had not Lord Innishowen a
decision the House
.howesi to be heard by
) At all events, they
House, and ought not Lordtrihmneellawrs
He could not
iestion with his pre-
Indeed, the great object of the
asols'tihuge House.
counsel at the bar?—(Hear,
precedents.
of the
ces:itigiietlhij,
‘lknowledgerinzi firstot.
hll: Eoc: natli
els
ito.ato,f:lsievtta,.onr apprehendeduci_ hdi
on
er sqPntrtiseieisisiticit:o-
questions
pt
hoped that his Hon. Friend
election law was to keep such
Act t ,t hhi se
(I'aisr titeb ert.
would Postpone it.—
tlemen who was to have
Mr. VERNON small suggested the postponement
of the question, for in point of fact there was no
that even one of the Hon. Gen
netice•of it given. So little was known about it,
been sworn on the Committee had not known himself
that it was intended he should be on it until a few mo-
ments before .he was called upon to be sworn ;
it woe quite impossible that the House could
come to. a just conclusion ; at present, therefore, it op- ,
peered ti) : him (Mr. Smith) that no person except the I
Learned Member, who had brought forward the questiore
and the' S2cretary to the Treasury with whom no dou-bt
there was commun!cation upon the subject, had brought
forward precedents With respect to it.
Mr. TH;GISIGER had not the least objection that
tithe should be taken: to consider. the. question, as
it 'was one of conSiderable importance. Honourable ,
Gentlemen stated that the House was taken by
firstlll)ee questionea 11. o

surprise; but he (Mr. Thesiger) had given notice dis-
tinctly on Monday last that he would call attention to
the subject.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL said there was no mention of
the matter in the Votes of the House this morning.
- After a desultory conversation, in which theCLIAN-
CELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, Mr. ROEBUCK, and some
other Members took part, the further consideration of the
question was postponed to Friday next.
The SPEAKER informed the House that the exa-
miner of recognisances had reported to him that the
sureties entercl into for the prosecution of the petition
against the return of Mr. Gregory for the county of
the City of Dublin, were unexeeptiOnable.
ADJOURNED DEBATE ON .THE CORN-LAWS.
On the Order of the Day being read for resuming the
debate on the Corn-laws,
Mr. E. BULLER rose to address the, House. The
Hon. Member stated that Hon. Gentlemen opposite had
taken'credit for advocating the sliding scale solely on
public grounds. The Hon. Gentleman the Member for
Aylesbury went still, further. lie stated that even
if his opinion were that the sliding scale
now proposed by the Right Honourable Bart. would
have the effect of reducing the value of agricultural
capital one-fifth, or 20 per cent., yet, such was his
attachment to the Right Hon. Baronet that, with some-
thing like Roman virtue, he would support the sliding scale
at this enormous cost. He altogether repudiated the
Roman virtue of the lion. Member for Aylesbury. He
had no hesitation in declaring that were any measure to
emanate from either side of that House, whether from
the Right Honourable Baronet, or the Noble Lord
(Lord John Russell), if, in his conscience, he believed
the effect of that measure would be to reduce the value
of agricultural capital one. fifth, no considerations of
party, no personal predilections, would prevent him
from giving the measure his decided opposition.
He disclaimed for himself all that disinterestedness of
which Hon. Members on the other side so loudly
vaunted. In every speech he made, and in every vote
he gave on
.the subject of the Corn-laws, he looked
to his own interest as a landed proprietor, and
as an occupier of land.—(Hear.) But he thought his own
interest was in the prosperity of the country, the wel-
fare of the labouring classes, and the increase in num-
ber and wealth of the nation, all of which , he thought
would result from the abolition of . the Goraslaws. • It
was his conviction that tde interests of agriculture would
not suffer by the abolition of these laws.—(Hear, hear.)
Looking at the information which had bean laid upon the
table of the House respecting the places from which sup-
plies of corn could be had for this country, he was greatly
surprised at the concession of Tamboff,—((lear, hear.)
It was calculated that 26,000,000 of quarters was the
necessary supply for the 26 millionS which he
found to be the population of this country, and
of these twenty-six millions, one million quarters had
been imported. But the population of this country went
'on increasing at the rate of 300,000 or 400,000
p2r annum, and in ten years there would be an increase
of between three millions and four millions of inhabitants,
and how, he would ask, could the hoine production be made
to satisfy the wants of the whole population ? He had
said that he took that volume of information laid
upon the table • for the name of Tamboff,
but he threw it down again in despair. It would be
in the recollection of the 'House, that the Noble
Lord,. the Member for , North Lancashire,
had seared all England from its propriety, by
declaring that thirty-eight millions of quarters,
the production of a single province of Russia,
were loading in the port of St. Petersburgh to meet
the wants of the people of this country, But what
were the facts ? The population of that place was only
1,700,000, and the whole amount of wheat produced
amounted, instead of 38,000,000, to something
between 21,000 and 35,600 quarters.—(Hear, hear.)
Instead of being twice the annual consumption, it
dwindled down to something like six hours' con-
sumption.—(Hear, hear.) He did not adopt the
opinions or sentiments of the gentlemen occupying
the opposite benches, neither did he admit much
that had been said on that side of the House.
He (lid not admit that the Corn-laws were
-an impious prevention of the designs of Providence.
He did not admit that the Corn-laws were the cause of
the whole distresses of the country, but he believed
they were the cause of increasing that distress.
Ile believed that in times of prosperity they
injured the country and aggravated the distress.
For his own part he was satisfied that the combining
causes of the distreis of the country arose from the
monetary system in America, our want of trade
with China, and other . causes. Giving the Right
lionoureb!e Baronet credit for the fullest intention
of relieving the distresses of the country, still
he could not but think that the present was the
smallest measure of relief - ever given by a
great Minister to a starving people. Though he gave
gave him credit for his motives, he could not but lament
his straightened circumstances, which precluded him
front carrying out a more enlarged plan. In the few
observations which he- intended to make, he would
state as correctly as - he could the value of the plan
the Right Honourable Baronet intended to produce.
He. could not help remarking the great discrepancy
between the speech of the Right Honourable
Baronet and the scale which he had laid before the
House. The Right lion. Baronet said that if prices
could range between 545. and 585., the duty would be an
, admirable protection to the farmer, and calculated -to
benefit the other interests of the country. lie (Mr. E.
-Buller) confessed he could not understand why, with
these views, the Right lion. Baronet laid hiSseale on the
toile of the House, when he (Mr. E. Buller) felt satisfied
that the framer of that scale intended that its effect.
should be to raise prices to 665.; and he (Mr. Buller) felt
convinced that it would have the -effect of raising
the price as high as 735. He (Mr. E. Buller)
could not help remarking another discrepaney• be-
tween the speech and the scale. The Right Honour-
- able Baronet was decidedly an advocate of the sliding-
scale, alai when he (Mr. E. Buller) looked at the scale
•
lain upon the table of the House, he must say, whoever •
framed that scale did not even frame it with the inten;
tion of supporting the scale. He believed that his object
was a fixed duty, but of an enormous amount. Now he be-
lieved the parties who had framed that scale expected that
a very large portion of the future importations of
corn to this country would be entered when the price
was 665., and the duty 68. per quarter. He believed that
if this scale should be carried the Right Honourable the
Vice-President of the Board of Trade, would, in a
very few years, come down to the house, and repeat
his language of former evening.—(Hear, Mar.) He
(Mr. E. Buller) was sure that if this proposal was
carried, it would be attended with all the evils which the
Vice-President of the Board • of Trade acknowledged
were attendant upon the 'present scale. The great ob-
jection to the present scale equally applied to the pro-
posed plan. There was an inherent defect in the sliding
scale which nothing could wash out vit., that it held out
to the persons who had iri their possession a quan-
tity of corn an inducement to keep that corn back.
Now the scale proposed by the Right Hon. Baronet was
open to that objection on that score. It was true the
Right Hon. Baronet had endeavoured to reduce the
amount of inducement to the holders of corn to withhold
their corn from bond! but the inducement still remained
when the price of corn was rising and the duty was
falling ; and all that he (Mr. Buller) could say of the
Right Honourable Baronet's Measure %VAS, that it wits a
palliative and not n Cure ; that it -was at best only a
mitigated misfortune: No title could look at the rettirns
which hall been laid tiptin the table Of the House, but
must adiiiit that the existing 'scale was to prevent the
admission of foreign corn, sinless it had reached the
maximum of price and the. iiiiliiititirit of duty. His lion.
Friend the Witmer for Mallen had shown the extremely
small quantity of corn which had been admitted when the.
price was falling end the ditty fisifig, at the dutits of
8(1.. 64% dd., and 2s. Bd. They might say that the
objection contained in that statement , to the scale now
before the House, applied to the present law! 'there
was a great induteitietit iviith there Was a difference of
4s. of duty, amid (oily Is. in price. When they
came to the price of 725., the duty was 2S: Bd., and there
was, an indueenieet to the holders of foreign corn to
withhold it fruit! the market when there was a difference
of Is, in- the price and ls: Bd. in the duty:
The scale now before .the house proposed to
reduce, iu tbit eiretinistattees; the inducements to
withhold corn from bond to is.: in duty and is.
in price. It appeared, to hini (Mr. Buller)
that the indtttements under' the proposed, settle Were; as
nearly as possible, as great as existed tinder 'ilia present
scale, when the price . Was betWedii it,Ml 13s:
When the prices had arrived at tils:; thoitigi the indtitie,,
meat tt) withhitchl rvair sti-luw; under the scale proposed,
in. no 'instance had any foreign corn been intrOdueed at
that duty, so long sl •Cdrit edfitiiiiied 1-. y rise.
In 1828, in' tlit Ilf§t week • in Novenitier, the
slaty was *2s. Bd., and the quantity imported that week
was 1,585 quarters. In the folio*tufs the quantity
was upwards of 10001130 and in the next six
weeks, it was as much as 700,009 i lii the lletti iniilg Of
March, 1831, the price 11* 11.si M .:, and the duty was
2s. Bd, In the following fortnights; whilst the dutyre-
maltied at 25.. Bd.; the tpiiiiitity Of coin itiipOrted
was no more than 1,01 quailers. 'But ni the
following week the duty fell to is:, tuid the
quantity of corn imported in that 'week was do less
titan 191,346 quarterss—(Hear, hear.) iii the 'next
month in six weeks the intpertati ii'as more than one
million.—(lleals) to 158., in the first week of Seb-
tember, the price of corn fell front and the
duty was 2s. Bd, and the tinantitv of corn introditced was
2,800 quarter!, The following week the duty *tilt to
is,, and there was the late qutaity Of 1,200;000 quar-
ters imported,—(Utar, hear) Thus it its aitleilt that
corn was withheld at a duty of N, 'oct: uY.itcr the present
scale, as - it would be Utter any other scale at that
duty, which Was found to be a sufficietit !Mince-
meat to prevent owners from bringing in their corn:
The present proposed settle; .therethre; etintaitied pro
cisely the same Inducement to withhold corn, and would
-operate in the same way. Notwithstanding the reduc-
tion of duty effected by it, the scale of the Right IlOh.
Baronet still left Sidlicient inducement to keep that
corn, to prevent it froint coming to Market
while prices were rising, and as a necessary coils
sequence the effect would be to raise prices
to the highest possible point, and the lowest duty. 'There
was another point in the scale, and that Wits the rest
he could not understand why this rest had been intro-
duced at 18s. A duty of 189. was as effectual a prohi-
bition, as a duty of 20S. or 30s. He had really come to
the conclusion, that the rest was introduced there not
for use, but for ornament; and that the Hon. Gentlemen
who bad devised the scale, thouitt
symmetrical, if it was arth
iiitrodu would be more
e top of the scale,
than at the bottom. IC it • was the expectation of those
who devised the scale. 'that- corn would come
in free at 665., he Was - perfectly certain that
they would be disappointed in that expectation.
And why would they be disappoirited'? Because it still
retained the great vice of -every' scale; an induce,
ment to withhold corn from Market... The rest was placed
too high, because it was fixed at a priceWlileh was never
attained except in years of dedetent hOine.produotion

when they must necessarily have recourse to a foreign
supply. Whenever the price reached 665., they
would scarcely find an instance in which it failed,
during the ensuing harvest, to reach the maximum
price. Those, therefore, who were in possession
of corn had not only a probability, but an absolute cer-
tainly of seeing it rise to the highest pcint of 735.1 t appeared
to him that the:effect of the proposed measure would be
to keep up prices at the highest amount, and he be-
lieved that the rest at 565. was of no value ; but if these
things were true, he did not see how Hon. Gentlemen
opposite could say that it was nit improvement on the
former system. He had looked at it in every view, and
he could not find how it would benefit the consumer. He
could not understand the course pursued by her Majesty's
Ministers upon the subject. Theywere pledged, they said,
to the sliding scale in this country, and yet they
were determined upon introducing a fixed duty into
Canada. But the reasons which should govern them in
the one case were the same as those which should
govern them in the other.—. (Hear.) • There were
changes of season, and fluctuations of price, in Canada
as well as in England. and there was no reason
why the same system should not be adopted in both
countries. It would appear as if Ministers thought it
desirable to try the principle of a fixed duty, and
had selected Canada for the experiment.—(Hear, hear.)
When these deductions are made, they show what
the scheme of the Right Honourable Baro-
net really is ; and he was sure. that if the
House calculated the value of the proposed mea-
sure to the consumer, Honourable Members, he (Mr.
Buller) was quite convinced, would agree with him in
thinking that the advantages to the consumer were so
very trivial, that they must be totally lost in their minute-
ness. The Noble Lcrd, the Member for North Lancashire,
had entered into a minute calculation of the price of
sugar last Session, but he (Mr. Buller) would suggest to
the Noble Lord now to calculate the precise difference
to the poor man in the price of a 41b. loaf, if the
proposed scheme of the Right Honourable Baronet was
passed into a law.—(Hear, hear.) That would be a
calculation worthy of the Noble Lord's great talents. The
country was in a state of excitement upon that ques-
tion. Oxfordshire grumbled—Buckinghamshire growled
—and Leicestershire was actually approaching to
rebellion.—(L. ughter.) As sure as the germ was
the earnest of the blossom, as sure as the blossom
was the earnest of the tult, the embryo of the
present measure would ripen into a fixed duty.
He believed that a fixed duty of 6s. would
eventually, be established.--(Hear.) The Right Hon.
Baronet the Member for Dorchester had consulted the
pamphlet of Mr. Hubbard, and that pamphlet had,
strange to say, carried home to his mind a con-
viction of the impossibility or maintaining a fixed
duty. Mr. Hubbard said that the failure of the harvest
in 1818, not only in this country, but upon the Conti-
nent, the general scarcity which ensued, and the unusual
precautions by which the continental Governments pro-
vided against that scarcity—these ciretiingtance3 would
have required the suspension of the fixed duty, had one
bes.n established ; but he asked if a quarter of a cen-
tury had elapsed without a recurrence of that scarcity,
it would be wise to refuse to legislate upon an equitab!e
system because it might possibly not recur. As well'
might they abrogate the " Habeas Corpus Act,
because circumstances might occur which would re-
quire its temporary suspension.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
He trusted he had said quite enough to show he did
not approve of the proposal of the Right Hon. Baronet.
—(Laughter and hear.) But he (Mr. B.) thought
it perfectly practicable to institute a compromise between
the interest of the- grower and consumer, but retain-
ing the sliding scale so long as it was necessary
for the protection of the farmer, and abandoning it when,
without injury to them, the consumer would be bens-
. tited. Ho would reserve details for future dessussion,
but would assure the House, that in coming forward, he
had no other motive than the relief of the poor and
the service of the country.—(Cheers.)
Sir W. JAMES observed that when the Noble Lord
at the head of the Opposition had denounced the
Right Hon. Baronet's measure as an aggravation
of former evils, the Hon. Gentleman who just spoke
had performed a sort of scanty justice in calling the
measure a mitigated mischief and a widow's mite.
The speech of the Hon. Baronet--(A laugh)—was
not different from the speeches of other Hon. Gentlemen
on the same side of the House in representing
the distress of the manufacturing districts in
glowing, but, in his opinion, exaggerated terms. The
Hon. Baronet—(A laugh)—(lt was here intimated to
the Honotintble Baronet that the laSt speaker, Mr.
Buller, was not a Baronet.) Oh, he begged
pardon; he thought that the Hon. Gentleman had been
made a Baronet by the late Government.—(Much
late zhter.) The Hon. Gentlemen. had talked of Tam-
bott, and the exaggerated statements made by the Noble
Lord, the Secretary of the Colonies, with respect to
it ; but it must be conceded, from the fertility of
the American States near the Ohio, which had been
described in such glowing terms by the Noble
Lord the Member for London, that the British farmers
would have but little chance of competing with them
if corn was admitted at the low duty advocated by
Hon. Gentlemen opposite.—(Hear, hear.) He con-
ceived the real question to be, whether any protection
should be afforded to agriculture, and if so, to what
amount. They had• begun at the wrong end. They
were now discussing what protection should be given
to agriculture, and when it was decided that
that protection would be best afforded. by a
sliding scale, the Honourable Member for Wol-
verhampton would come and ask them to take away all
protection whatever.—(Hear.) The consequence was,
that confusion was introduced into their debates, and
two questions mixed together which ought to be
kept distinct.—(Hear, "hear, hear.) The error into
which Hon. Gentlemen had fallen seemed to him almost
inseparable from the' circumstances of the case. That
there should be protection to agriculture he thought the
thinking part of the people of England, had decided. No
one could have more respect than lie had for public opinion,
but the difficulty was to know what the public opinion was;
—(Hear, hear.) On the whole (and taking it with all its
faults-he loved it still), lie did not know how any fairer
representation of public opinion could be taken
than the returns to that House. He thought it
might be fairly argued that the sound, moderate, and
enlightened part of the public opinion was in favour of
protection to agriculture. Upon these grounds he should
be most willing to leave the question, had not Gentletnen
entered largely into it, who had preceded him. The
Hon. Member for Coventry had interspersed his speech
with abuse upon the landlords, and the Hon. Member
for Sheffield had talked of their cobweb interests and
their flimsey selfishness.—(A laugh.) Protection had been
given to the landed interest for the last 500 years, and that
that had been done with success he thought was plain
from the statements of Mr. M‘Culloch himself. The value
of agricultural produce since 1774 had increased in this
country to a greater extent than her whole taxation.
It was impossible to look at the state of the
country, without seeing that there was no favoifr
extended to any one class in preference to another, and
that there was no favoured interest. " Land and
trade," said Mr. Josiah Childe,. a high authority
on such a subject, " Land and trade are twins,
and must ever exist and fall together. Land cannot
flourish but trade will feel it, and trade cannot fall but
land Will fall,also," This had been quoted go often, that
it had beCotile a truism ; but when he perceived that
Hon. Gentlemen on both &des the (louse, and in each
interest, had, during the course of the present de-
bate attempted to depreciate the importance of
the interests to which they were opposed, he thought
it was. a truism of which many Honourable Members
ought to beremintled.--()alettr, hear.) There was another
point to which 'he would allude, that of independence of
foreign s„pply. He would not deny that, to a cer-
tain extent, we were dependent - upon foreigners,
but still lie contended that every endeavour should
be made to avoid being dependent upon foreigners
for the staple food of the country.—(l-lear.) Agri-
culture had tilways been considered infinitely preferable
to trade or commerce. The Noble Lord had said that
there was no authority but Malthus, who had . ad-
vocated an independence of foreign supply. Now, he
(Sir W. James) contended that Adam Smith was also an
authority in favour of that position. He said that trade
Wile, iii Addition to the danger from the winds and
the waves, exposed to danger from the. folly and in-
justice of absurd laws.—(Cheers from the Opposition.)
He did not tiiiiiit it tvould be prudent of this country to
give tip the itiee. of being in most years independent
to a nertaiti bkfent of a foreign snppl Besides the land
bore exclusive burdens,— (" No," "What?'') The land-
tali; the cotititpax; and the bulk of the 130 or-rates were
borne by the latid.—tfittaf,) If that were not the case
he would be prepared to go to a Conittllttee of Inquiry,
in 3 pfOlidgOd by the Honourable Member for Sheffield.—
(Hear.) COnsideflog also the various ways in which
protection was afforded to the manufactures, he
thOugilt, it ,bits thidetilalq do more than fair to give
some
_peoteetien to the agriculturists,—(Hear, hear, from
the MutiSterial beheliee. The lion; Member then read
from the returns a list of the Vtitsidild articles of manu-
facture which were protected by a duty, and alto of
south aftieh3A idf tigrieultural and colonial produce which
proteettal# tlittita.) ttb*MB the Right Hon. Baronet,
the First Lord the Treasury; had saitl, If the duty
on corn Were entirely Abolished, it Would be necessary
to alter our fiscal system. If the protection were
taken off corn, it could not be continued upon
lilieiisi edtiditgi and the like.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
die (it W. iiatnee) should like to know, if such were
the ease, ho* they could raise the revenue, and
pay the national debt ; he did not believe it
would be possible. James D. Hume had said
that if they relintiled
.the duty on corn, they ought to
felietti it Oil all iititer3 tiimtiltatteotisly.—(Bear, hear.)
Ire had heard a great deal of talk about
the distress In the country, and the effect
of the Corn-laws on it ; be (Sir W.
.Jltmes) did not
deny that they aright haee had some effect on the
distress of the country, but. that other concurrent and
concomitant causes had a:much greater effect. There was
Mit tans() theritiohed by the Right Hon. Baronet;evhich
he helieVed had a great eMet, It Wits the treaty with
Ghiita and America; the over-issue of paper currency,
acid the over-trading and speculating which occurred in
aild it appeared to him (Sir
1838 were other Cittlseg ;
W, James) that the over,issue of paper money and de-
ettiigemeitt tit eiidy feetilted from there not
being a sufficient regulation with regard to. country,
bankers. The Honourable Gentleman opposite had
represented this as the landlords' question, and
not as the question of the farmers and labourers.
That appeared to him (Sir W. James) to originate from
the fallacy that rent did not enter into the cost of pro-
duction. That had been stated by-M'Ctilloch, Ricardo, and
a barrister named West ; it was quite evident, however,
that rent did enter into the cost of production. In the
price of every article, there were three shares ; first, the
labourer's share, then the capitalist's share, and the
proprietor's share. Take cotton for example; there was the
labourer's share, the manufacturer's share, and the
grower's share, and so it might be argued with espect
to land. There was the labourer's share, the share
ef the farmer, and also the share of the landlord, who is

the proprietor of the raw material. Rent (lid therefore
enter just as much into the cost of 1 rAuction as other oti
articles ; and he could not undeis'and the reasons hie
alleged by those who argued on the other . r.l:
This measure he thought, therefore, was calculate(' to •
benefit not so much the landed proprietor as the farmer Oil
and the labourer. Now, with regard to a sliding':
scale as compared with a liked ditty, it wad ;1„tu,,.; _-
possible for any person to look attentively
the subject, and not see the great advantage oaf
of a sliding scale. To a certain extent he ad'
'pitted that there tuin;ht also be advantages in R
fixed duty but he could ttbaridon qte-''
sliding scale. ln the first place, when corn was
low, a fixed duty gave no protection to the farmer ; for
what protection could a fixed duty of 6s. or Bs..be to the ,1,1,5,t1s
farmer, when the price of corn at Elsinore was 255. or •
305.? In framing a sliding scale, the best
principle ari
peared to be, to make the duty as gradual as poble, e`"
if there was any rest, to make it as near as possible to 01'1
centre. He had seen a project for a sliding scale, fremeu
by a gentleman named Thorpe, which retained a fixed ant),
between 50s. and 605., and a sliding scale at each end of it. -1.11.
He thought the idea was not a bad one, as it inade the
level as large, and the ascent and deSee 11t re
8
gradual as possible, and would, perhaps, be nwr
beneficial to the farmer, and still more to the importer
than the plan of the Right Hon. Baronet ; still be
accepted that plan as a great boon to the agriculture
interest, and lie might state that he had from his lilt:
stituents the most satisfactory and flattering accounts 0
The Hon. Gentleman then read an extract from a letter
approving particularly of the improved mode of kingta
w
the averages, and proceeded to say, that,
the present system, it was only the strong inel"
tile men of great capital, who made fortunes ;
th
small traders, and men of small capital, were frequent 11
ruined. He was, unfortunately, aware of many in:
,0
stances in the town he -had the .honour to represem
of persons who had declared themselves topells 14.
been ruined by the operation of the present scale
duties, while others had made large an flourishing' fir,
tunes. He stated facts that must be well knoWtl
every Member of that House who had paid any alien-
tion to the subject ; but as he had said before, he was •
sure that all moderate, and practical, and thinking
men would consider the measure of the. Right
Honourable Baronet as a great boon.—(Tory cheers.)
The Noble Lord on the opposite side of the House de-.
scribed the proposed scheme as a measure which e'9ll;
ceded without conciliating. He (Sir Walter Jame!!
was very, glad of that, because it was too
the fashion fOr the Conservatives to conciliate without
justice.—("Hear, bear," from the Opposition benches.)
Conservatives conceded sometimes for the sake of con;
ciliation and justice too ; but he was convince" •
that the proposed measure had been made not glen:
for the love of conciliation, but that it e'
made for the benefit of the public, and f°,l
the pure love of justice-to all parties. He was &MOW",
it would promote the interests of all classes of thfi
country, and not of any particular class.--(Hear.)
there was any proof of that wanted, it might 11„
had by looking at the extreme - views talt,e:
up by those who were opposed to the present measta"
There were first the farmers of Boston, who say that the
proposed rate of duty is a great deal too low ;
and on the other hand, there . were the gentle:,
men of the Anti-Corn-law Conference who thin!‘f
that it is a great deal too . high. Now, le
there was anything in the old maxim that virtar
was a mean between good and evil, he (Sir Walt i,Je
,
James) unhesitatingly said that the scheme proposed ",,
her Majesty's Ministers was the very best that could 11,3
devised; and as such it should have his most earns.
and hearty support.—(Cheers.)
Mr. BEItNAL rose principally to reply telitet
had been advanced the evening before by the
nourable and Gallant Gentleman the • Member 1,,°:
Westminster (Captain Rous), who stated that a 11;i
minution of the price of bread would lower wages
was scarcely necessary to answer such a. faller
In no cases whatever were the increase of wages de. •
pending upon the decrease of the price of bres
He (Mr. Bernal) would first call the attention 43, 0,-
the House to the price of provisions. In 16311
bread was only Id. a pound, and there was • 'no
in wages. In 1840 bread was double that, and then
` •
1.1
was no corresponding increase in wages.—(Hear, he!„
hear.) In 1835 the cost of wheat for the ent''i
nation was 32,000,0001. ; in 1840 it was 54,000,°0
which left 22,000,0001, in the former year, in the pou"4
of the people, and was applied to the purchase of cloth'
and other articles of that sort.—(Hear, he
In his opinion too much stress had been laid upon.thef
analogy between the comforts and habits of Jiving °I,
the Englishman and the foreigner. Frost our great'
degree of commerce, and our higher degree of civilizatq;
we had established a maximum degree of comfort. it, ::
well, then, might the foreign statesman endeavottro-,
prove that because the foreigner used wine as ~e 0
prevalent beverage, he was happier and better t" iv
the Englishman who drank beer. It was enel nr
within the last eighty years that 'the lower classes ii 0);
this country had been wheat fed. At the close of t, 0.1?
reign of George the Second, barley-bread, rye, and els:;,P
oat-cakes were the staple food of the community. 0,04
was through the great improvements which had tn lens
place in agriculture that the country
wheat fed. The Honourable Gentleman had spokek,
the unlimited invention of machinery Was he prelllll:4oiJA
to say that the distress which existed was to be attribu, be ~71
to the invention of machinery ?—(Hear, hear.)
Hon. Member for Knaresborough, in a rather bolnrteeP';
mariner, had given a challenge to the gentlemen dor."-;•,011,
with the manufacturing interest, which he was surt'-efiko?
had not been accepted on that side of the House ;
Hon. Gentleman succeeded in establishing that pr0P0t,,,i.,,,
he confessed that it would greatly influence his opitll'4:_:',
The Hon. Gentleman designated the petitions presen44 •
against the Corn-laws as forgeri,:s. Now there 119 •
been presented 1,033 petitions, signed by 259,9*;,,,,
persons. Was this an accusation that should
made against such a body ? He also • 'l'oo
that the farmers were not opposed to a modifiel
of the Corn-laws ;if they were not, why, then, der.
certain Noble Duke leave the Cabinet ? lie (Mr. Pe e
nal) hoped that some Member connected with
Noble Duke, would give some explanation 011 this
poi .Y
Now the farmers were opposed to any modifictle'co.,,,,
and it was useless to expect anything from thileo.',.•
until they had a higher rate of education amongst t i 8
The majority of the present House were in fact seni'd
under false pretences to maintain the Corn-laws, -e)
lay violent hands on the New Poor-law.—(Hear°l
But he would not ' dwell farther on this 1)„00
Much had been said about the peculiar burthens
test
land. Until it was shown to him in a proper witY.ei oti
those peculiar burthens really. were, he should susrliot
his vote as to the amendment about to be moved.
then
lie could not think, without such a case being ';'1001
out, that the landed interest was burthened more., `"iiis
any other ;it was was not, therefore, entitled, tit
opinion, to greater protection. If a case were niattee:oo
of the landed interest being more burthened, !de
any other he would vote for a greater amount 01
F.
tection in order to repay it. '
Mr. SCOTT would not trespass on the indulgenc.-eir
the House, if he did not feel that he was the rePre'
tative of a constituency of much importance. The hos
Gentleman who had just sat down had said that
who had been returned as the representllliliere
of an agricultural constituency were sent t'rj3'
merely for the object of maintaining the law in 45Vilis
tine state. He (Mr. Scott) was sent there us 001'
representative not only of an agricultural, but of sor
nufticturing constituency, and he would, therefore:ibirtf
port the interests of both. The county (Roxburgh)
he represented contained a constituency of bot 4 wore,
The Right Hon. Baronet, in introducing his `lente
as
stated that it was his wish to fix the price of
nearly as possible at 565. a quarter. Now he
Scott) thought that that was a reasonable r re'
and he believed it would offer a sufficient ,rie°
muneration to the farmer. The great tine-cir
at issue was whether we were to be dependent 1,6011
selves for the subsistence of our increasing poPtrier'y
or whether we were to be dependent upon foreliiown
whether we were to. receive our supplies from Or. 0..10
countrymen and friends, or from ourpresent rirais,,i,el
might be our future foes. Now, he thought that L;,;,,iorl'
guments used on the other side were far from eoltv,„-
It had been stated as an argument in favour of the Pri'pre'
posed by the Noble Lord, that the importation of core
sent caused the exportation in last year of seven raillionsLuroe!!,
lion for 2,000,000 quarters of corn. ,But the Noble.Lordep
said that the quantity of corn imported would be doeb,lari. tqc,
plan were adopted. Surely, then, if 4,000,0(X) quarert
imported, fourteen millions of bullion would be ell's-
exchange. The derangement of the .-curreneY
easily accounted for by• the increased issues' Joiri,c
only of the Bank of .England, but of
stock Banks. The currency used by
had increased in the year 1834 up to 1838 from
to 4,258,1901, When they considered that .thete tbc4
displacement. of four millions from another cause, eur%itl)°`-t
was enough to account for the distress which existed, lose
attributing it to the Corn-laws. It would be vertu')` P re, .
that they should take more of our goods; it would be 01
sant further, to attend to the concerns of the countrYn'ir Ow •
their own. But they were not regulated by r„
principle they took what they wanted, and a" fa. bye
turns showed that foreign countries lookettwhe" ieebej
gold, and not for our manufactures.—(Hear.) `„.,eet,
I'iscount, late at the head of her Majesty's Govern'id-, but ef.-,
said that they might alter the Corn-laws as they *ln itioretoe'
believed the frreign Powers would not take one thsn (a
the goods of this country ; but a greater authority was no(
Nobe Viscount, Mr. Burke, had said that It eoity le,
the necessity- of the seller, but the nf.e., srochot
the purchaser that raised the price of " igit
How was, it to be expected, when this .7
to Ofebeir
placed itself in a dependent position with respee
giro t
_de
Powers that they would deal with this country 4_l, in Wee,
own interests? It had been said that embarrasgo?.Fibey
had been occasioned by the Corn-laws, and thet,o; this: c!T_Ofe
altered, it would give greater vent for the goods oteceo,.
try. There was no evidence of that. It had I?T'aci, oat ,„ey
various persons, that if the Corn-laws were 107403 thet_a,•
ports would be greatly increased. It appeared rta%itegttus of
°tight to judge of the future by the past ; and if n_.at ireperro,
rept series of years first, when ihere was r! no 1105,,re
itill fetetee°
of foreign corn ; and, secondly, when there IP t
tion ; end if they found that the exports werene_tintibe_oe
it must be clear that there was little or no cop.
_ctnot,freSocl•
the exports and the effect of the Corn-laws If
year 1821, and divided it into periods of four y.7the eXY jer
froth the official returns, that, in the first peitt;37, them' lose'
amounted to 65,000,000/. ; in the Year to ireVrt beer')
76,000,000/. ; and in . the one instance t )4100,
corn, and in the other a greater quent'Vt•hatt
hear.) His argument went to
no connexion whatever between their e'lxwiLto'rattid,trebeereFluilt:
lion of corn. In the year 1837 their ex?, and yet, obi?,
85,000,0001., and in 1840 to 116iC00,00°" tire
the latter year, they complained of
1i:7,.,0r.
..tabie
there was an abundance during
, fat seri;
not deny the existence of distress, but it a' .„.p
to the Corn-law. The value of thelrha;The 20000‘ bile 01'
shown by Mr. Emery, who proved t_
y.
was not attrindubsee
cultural produce was two hundeedanat
d o,o4,thirty
joillelapte
of manufactures was only one
encourage it was active industry, r_rnnet would vico,onf
'ably
ysticrael
cpurloatpeodsefdorb destrY• . IP
the forw
•
loch oe
If there was one thing more thanireatheticvlehiethho ugh et2t:Ctell 3adt 01 11
h distress w -
could regret more than he did
rhethperoßreigobtitonHt °orefinai7ve i two

'lent did therefore ,4
eduction as other :
sand the reasons ~
the other side. !
was calculated to . ,
etor as the farnicr ~ ,
ard to a sliding • ~,
tap ft Wa4 19V- ..
, 'l4.
attentively itilt; - • „,
great advantage
~,,I
i extent he ail"' , ~,t
advantages in a ~„ e
Lot ttbandon tlie : ~,,.!
lea corn was i't.itli
n. : d'
to the farmer ; for ~,-,V,
6s. or Bs-be to the -• I,
lsinore was 255. or •",,
'''
best principle a r •
lual as possible, end
tr as pOriSible to the •, r
tiding scale, framed
etained a fixed duty ' . A
Lle at each end Of it. ..., '
one, as it made the . :
and descent as
perhaps, be more
ore to the importer
Baronet ; still he
to tlic agricultural
• had from his cott2 . ~
ering accounts of ifs
iltract from a letter
red mode of taking - n
say, that, under
the strong men, ~ •
Lade fortunes ; the
,al, were frequently ,;;
ware of many in' :,"
rnour to represent . ~
!mselyes to have . A
e present scale of
' "'
Ind flourishing fbri . •'',
be well knows tt/ .
lad paid any often- ,
;aid before, he WILS.
ical, and thinking
.e
of the Right
.•
a.—(Tory cheers.) ••
.e of the House de-•
ieasure which con,'
iir Walter Jones)
it was too much'
) conciliate without ~
',
,pposition benches.) . • ' /
'or the sake of colt; 3
~,.,
le was convineen
en made not alone • ••,,
but that it waS. :,/.
public, and for' •;-1 e
He was convineeti' ~,,j
all classes of the
class.—(Hear.) ',..:1f
ntcd, it might ov ' 4
me views taken ''
-
.he present measure. , •
~,
Du, who say that
''
the ' .
!at deal too low
Were the gentle'
~,'
erence who thin,l4,. ...''
a high. Nowt .
maxim that virtue ' •'
ril, he (Sir Walter •
scheme proposed hi •
r best that could hee,
Ye his most earns`'
•

to reply to -tylle
before by the lie
the Member fie!
) stated that a e',;
zld lower wages ;
er such a. fallacy'•
crease of wages de: '
he price of breitei
it the attention °4'
ovisions. In 18,.11.
there was 'no re
able that, and there ,
'ages.—(Hear,
eat for the eri„„6l.
it was 54,000,0 w"
r year, in the pocke°
purchase of' cloth
5
)rt.—(Hear, hear.)
I been htid upon Or
habits , of Jiving e„
▪ From our grealo
degree of civilization,- ',;
'ree of comfort.
tesman endeavou big,;„4:l
• used wine as
icr and better the-
er. It was 0111111
the lower classeg
At the close of
-bread, rye, and
the community ¢F
its which had take
country bees,lll.4-4
(:i
leman had spot-011'0i
v Was he prerraci',l
was to be attriDeu-- ,Jr
(Hear, hear.)
in a rather bolo,„41n:58flt
gentlemen MIPy.
rich lie was serkAle,
'the House ; an .I,„xtet;
;ping thatproPoo„4o,''
ntluence his ophl`y-e,l'.''
ie petitions preset'
:s. Now there 11
signed by 2.59,93,„
m that should 'l4:
' He also said,'
to a modificati°;•
)t, why, then, did
net ? He (fr. rer;
connected with in'
illation on this poiP:',
to any modificati:..
iything from t,110,:r
ration amongst tne,.
were in fact sent:a
the Corn-laws,
r-law.—( Hear
her on this P°- o''
!tiller burtheriS
in a proper waY
, he should susre
tto be moved. j 4(,
a case being 11/1601.'''
(,
mrthened more .°4
,
yore, entitled, 1? alit
t case were frianc,:of
ire burthened t
'titer amount of r
on the indulgeneew
ie was the repregf'14,.;'
porta nee. The 30,5 e
had said that rh.;,es
he representatlere
were sent cis-
g the law in its
sent there ag 01' '
altural, but of
vould, thereforev;)o
Ey (Roxburgh) ti`„..o(ls'
iency of boah s"..re,
xlucing his Ineos't .:
:he price of %i'llC9S,;'
Ater. Now he • '
a reasonable Flee
r a suflicieut .00
'he great q--
oesti-
) dependent on to),
creasing popuLie erso
int uponforeVorti
pplics from our l
•present "e Af.
thought, that tbring,
far from conv,i/171,ffe-',
favour of the oat pile
port at ion of corn glafliol,;:,
)1* seven millions,1000:,
the Noble Ler4_,lP
would be doublet`lo:-.:
I
rOOO,OOO qUarrie.-„d 111.,
would be expor'.so4-',

the curren pat
d
Teased issues, loot'
iut of the ot0(
sed by the 44t,
1838 fr0m1,317,
that the was ore
her cause, surelY, boot
which existed, 1"t 40$
would be verY Piegjegi
it would be verYSot
Df the country, 0° octt
;ulated by aoi re'
ted, and all IPC of
its looked for oh,
-( Hear.) Thent,
y's Governiner, Ile
aas they ould, belt le
of
ake one bale 010 • 0,0
er authority 01° pot
aid that it vias.,
t necesol,t•de,
the
ice of the ar 'ot
en this cotinurloreigit
rith respect 1.0 theV
country agalq
trlde
Tibarrassm if
they 0,00
and that, if
le (.00(13 of this co by;
It had been grg° efi,
were altered, our
ivy
eared to him that
and if in taking ° (r,
v,as a (Treat OP° is,
there v;ais no ill.`o,
s were still Pleb eer,
no connection heto
If he took f.o°l'd,
'"' he .
F four years, _„ort.
rst period, the elore
ear 163'2, thertei leo
ice they inirr
rt
oitity.--( Wa waf•
ow that there
tto
ports and the
u
exports amori,u(rliil:4
ON., and et, „be
great distresstc;
former year.
tribu lab ti
iC
it was riot at
had De •
agriculture ,
it the amount n!, aot,
rr,lll.op. %One ;
ca Sant{
abort.,
d and thirty In ,0
er hieh he voshrt ire
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