Star.
London, England, 1808-02-16 00:00:00

Prr , •
. . ,
arr. eves Hof a Moat!‘a 7c re of absence to Si! Home *Otad, in their exultation have called for all manner state letters then, vallich the Right Hon. Gentleman 1 athan With Portugal. He did not think it was tv:ce-
Yr.l).--,,7 nt of his ill state of h. alit), which-was granted. of
po3tpone his motino, o! TheyP -
pa ers relating to the expedition to andal never imparted to his colleagues„ and which in going sary to make any Comment lipoid the protieieft of :its
?.iniStTiroToN said ht shenld
. ores hrOtight
had, however, not done so ; the present out of °ace he carried away with him, he now wished '1 quiring this intelligence, until objections should skit
!.,,f.,„.' bad given notice, for p •pers respecting a transaction in motion .
laii,ao-- },Nionrahle Baronet was implicated., till hi
re-ap-forward by the Hon. Mover, to convert into officiad documents, and applied to the i triade, which he was not dispOsed to anticipate. kito
''aen.rin thst kloute. without any concuerance from any particular party Board of Admiralty to record them as official 'papers. ; should therefore prepare his first riecition, width Would
Bill •
tn th.. Bar - ,
enable _ . .1. L lend rhich mipt emsuusptpsoasyed, to exist in that House. As This application. was only made a few days ago ; and Ibe followed by *several others. It was,
for himse f, heb
s'aciiseissoN brought up a.
gr. ~,„„,- .be unclaimed Dividends and lawery Prizes ; and
ni,ogo.A,'—i' BM which were severally read a and that no communication had is the purpose was-obvious, the Admiralty did send ! e That an humble Address be presented to his Majest,-, itat
first, ' been made to him upon the subject till that very day. him back his private letters, and refused to acknow. I then: be laid before the House Copies of the Instructions to Earl
4..-*9l-e-re-"idna seci;nd rime to-morrow.
Customs ir. the port
r,a N He had investigated those papers, as far as the short- ledge them as official. There was, however, another
'`..e-Dil for Abolishing the Office of Petty ' St. Vinecnt,ofdboßes,slyn, a,.:,c1 General Simeoe, relating tothe
d' f q :rid orde• Ato be read a se^o••d tine res of the time would allow ; and as to the first more regular mode of obtaining any important papers expedition to ' n 111 18066
don was rea J ir, , . • .. .. n
ilcr ' . paper moved for, the treaty signed in January 1799, on the sabject. There.was nod oubt but that Admi.
-.af
i, ge • the Office of Treasury of the Navy, and he thought there could.be no objection to rode •1,
hadM r.SetcroemtainrytiCniAcaNtioNnllw4Githsatiilde,
Honourable
onuontlbllicavtini
:Ivef e'cir-oire.c-elealtemegs-e severally read a Clint rime and passed..: I mg ral Collingwood had sent that report of Admiral Louis ,any •
~ tem-metes (e ways and Mean 4, voted the i that, as it was in fact before the world atP c -the •the r. 1
To House, in .present ;to Board of Admiralty as well as to Rig lit : Learned Gentleman on the subject of his motion, and
to a off that suns in the Niche tier Bills '
seo,otaa e a q but as to the secret articles which the Hen. Gentle- Hon.
iirs:na Gentleman who was then First Lord Commis- , not having collected from his speech what would be
ng. man supposed to exist, respecting the admission of sinner ; arid at the Admiralty that, or any other
9° it'ee of supply WO postponed. to Friday, pa_ !, the extent of it, he wished tcr know what additional
lateral •. British ships into the Dardanelles b
s, e was not aware per which Admiral Collingwood judged material to ,documents he meant to require before he acceded to
or. waIITBREAD gave notice that, on that y e. 1
. e da tat t tere were any such secret articks ; nor if any be sent home, Might be found. As to the Right Hon.
": e. he, would submit curtain
propositions on 1 such did e •was Mr ABF RCROMBIE replied that his other mos
i) the proposition.
exist, he able to say whether they were of Gentleman's private letters, he did not know on what i , ' ' ' •
f1g"" • I R • •-, ad' •the A '
ts; via. tle Russian ma ration, it- . anatere which
. . i could be safely published. He could grounl they could be considered official, unless the
oteseelede,,tion
and the proerietv of at presentl bons would apply to the communications from the
have no objection either to the Preinction of the Right Hon. Gentleman really conceived that, instead
sei.lit ine I" ?• on for ewe • and' that he wouldl three Commander. he had named to the Prince Re.-
,sling a negociati FL. ,
treaty between
Russia and Turkey (which was al- of First Lord Commicsioner, he had been actually
' w move for several papers
to fill up certain ' ready publicly known) except that it appeared to lam Lord Hi h'd • 1 England, d - i gent, and the replies to them ;and further, the parte-
tealon'• 1 coins of the interview with the Prince Regent prior
Nos in the correspo.ndence laid on the table, someg i., miri of an in flat capacity-
contrary to form to lay before the House copies of his a: irate instructions were binding- - ito their departure from the Tagus.
bf which mcng the
perhaps
moTebt'orbea drClos'eo.dl* ci‘ontaining a treaties in which this pinery was no par, y. The ! Mr. GRENVILLE. in explanation, said, that in Mr. Secretary CANNING objected that a motion
Tot he meant to m + correspondence with Mr. Arbuthnot
a was certainly in , his letter to Lord Mulgrave, his only idea was, that so general. did not admit the exclusion of matter how-
,oncersation that passed. both eon 'thle' Emperor ot the office, and could be produced, if there was no- it was his dot to give to his successor every intorma- ever delicate in its nature, and however dangerous to
. and a person accrediteo from this Govern- thing in it which was improper to be made public.—', tion that he Was possessed of. impart. Applications of this kind to provide the
Russia i With respect to the propriety of laying these papers Mr. JOHNSTONE thourht that there was a very , House the particulars of a private interview with' a
mint.me. seeetare CANNING said, that any dispatch ! before the House, he should rather wish that the , striking difference between the Copenbaoon expedition Sovereign Prince had never been attempted before,
contaiang any conversation he.ld by any Emperor cr i House would decline '
.going into the inquiry ; but if and the Turkish in this respect. - If 'Ministers had and if acceded to, must have most pernicious conse-
he would resist the production of. lit was loudly called for by the Gentlemen- on the {qucnces. It was well known, that while the British
Groaned Hcad'REAl/2 0 ' ed ch been wrong in the Copenhagen expedition, there
I,h. w HIT B aiswer., at papers which ' other side, he should not venture to run the risk of might be some practical effect in taking the opinion of Ministers were waiting in the anti-room with the aer-
contained the conversation of an Emperor, or exposing his Majesty's Ministers to the insinuations the House upon it, as in such case the House might vants of Imperial Princes, the French 'accredited
crowned Head, had been produced more than once. 1 which would be made against them from the other address his I' 1 ' -M. • H del agents had passed our envoys, and had bearded So-
p:sty IO Tenloye its misters. e i
AMERICAN TREATY. I side of the House, if they Were not to grant the pa- not see, however, any practical result from enquiring vereigns within the recesses of their own Cabinets
con
rONSONBY asked Mr. Secreta anning, ' pers. lie could not see any beneficial result, or into the expedition to the Dardanelles, as the advisers This preference had occasioned some complaints, and
papers moved fur relative tithe Amen- practical advantage, to be derived from the produc. of it were not now in office. He presumed, that no- the resalt had been that, on various occasions, the
whether the
can Treaty would be laid before the House to- tion of those papers ; but still if the Gentlemen on body wished to move an impeachment against them, British had been admitted to the like privilege.—
But this footing of equality must be destroyed, if it
toorew the other side thought them necessary for the vindica- or to address his Majesty that they should never aeain
b
Mr. Secretary CANNING answered, that the pa- tion of their character, he was perfectly disposed to be taken into his service. •
were permitted that the private communications with
•
in, but he believed they could
pea were prepar E 0 not grant every paper which could be produced without Mr. WINDHAM insisted that the House should an independent sovereign should be laid on the table
be ready by to-morrow. detriment to the public service. dispassionately entertain the investigation, and he ar- of the Honse, subsequently become the matter .of
Mr. PONSONBY said, that as those papers would Mr. GRENVILLE said, that as he had quitted dently hoped they would be furnished with those debate, and again be indecently circulated through
rery material m the due consideration of the Bill his situation at the Admiralty before the result of the Papers which were decessary to throw light on the the kingdom in the public newspapers. He was happy
eative to the Resolutions on the Orders of Council, eapedition was known, it was impossible for him to purity of the transactions of the late Mini`sterS. He on this occasion to make a stand, and openly to reost
vetch was to he read a second time tcomorrow, he know the contents of the official documents which censured the conduct of the present Board of Ad- such propositions. There was no country in Europe
toped the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite would . were received after his quitting officetherefore miralt in not recording the documents sent by his where directintercourse between,ForeignMinisters and
consent to postpone that Bill
.for a few days, that the .he did not know whit papers would be necessary for Hon. Friend ; however, they were, independent of the Monarch was so strictly guarded as in our own ;
!
House might have time to give it due consideration. , his justification. He could not avoid statino• to the these Papers, ready to vindicate themselves. none here were suffered to approach the Throne,
The Bill had been printed, bat it was not more than i House some circumstances which shewed the man_ Lord CASTLEREAGH had no inclination to unless the servants of the Crown were present ; and
ire minutes since it had been delivered to the Mem- 1 nor in which the present Board of Admiralty con- bring forwatd any charge against the late Ministers, in proportion to the difficulty of immediate access with
bers, and it would be impossible to consider it ma- :ducted themselves in some respects. While he nor would he stand between them and their justifica- us, were the obstacles presented to the same access of
rarely in so short a time. I was in the situation of First Lord of the Admi- tion ; he did not see the utility of bringing forward4
our Ministers abroad.•
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ralty, he had written private letters in that capacity papers which were not sought for in that- House, and Mr. ADAM couldi4n no terms express his- asto-
said, that the principle of the Bill only was to be de- Ito Admiral Collingwood, and had received a report unconnected with the public service • nevertheless, he nishment at the observations of the Right Hon. Se-
beedeend that had already been fully discussed in from Admiral Louis,' who commanded the advanced thought the Board deserved public 'thanks for reject- eretary, and not less was he suprised at his conduct.
the debate on the Resolutions, to give further time 1, squadron of the fleet which reconnoitered the strength in g papers which could not be received as official. What were the facts ?He was accused of bringing
secessary for a due eonsideraticn of the subject. The lof the defences of the passage of the Dardanelles. If Mr. TIERNEY said, the House onght to put a Parts, and only parts of a most important document.
elayiug of the Bill would be attended with great l the present Board of Admiralty conducted itself by stop to the reading of garbled extracts since the in- This paper was so garbled and mutilated, as to give
mblic inconvenience, and therefore he could not con- ! the same rules that.former Boards of Admiralty did, novation had been very lately reprobated by the high- half sentences, by which an impression was made,
mt to the Hon. Gentleman's request. ! this last paper must certainly be in their office—but, est authority in the country. -( H hear totally the reverse of what was 'stated. in the original,
ear, !)—The
This brought on a long conversation, in which Mr. I wishing to give every information, he wrote a letter charge against the late Ministers was a serious one, and thus the confidence of the House was betrayed.
WHITBREAD moved,, that -the Order of the Day ito the present Board, inclosing this report, and also which was, an unjustifiable attack on Alexandria, at What was the language on the present occasion ? It
for the second rea., ng co the Bill to-morrow should a certified copy of a private letterto Admiral Coiling- the time of peace, with an insufficient force ; but on was that British envoys were Admitted to the imme-
te read, in order to move for its being. discharged ; I wood, previous to the attack on Alexandria. The this head he was bound to say the in' :ructions were diate presence of foreign Princes, and that, therefore,
in which he was supported by Mr. Hibbert, Mr. Tier- I Board sent those papers back again ti, him with an full and explicit, and he hoped the day was not far no account was to be given of such conferences, or in
nee, Sir A. Pigott, Lord H. Petty, Mr. Sheridan, and ! answer, " that they did not know whether any such distant when they would prove the fact lie now proud- other words, that this new form of of re
was
Mr. Ponsonby. The Chancellor of the Eachequer, ! papers existed in their office, but at all events ttey ly asserted. to preclude Parliament from all knowledge of what
Mr. Secretary Canning, and Mr. Rose opposed the ! thought them of no importance, as the business was Mr. JOHNSTONE persisted, that the House passed with foreign Courts. He must most solemnly
motion. At length, the former Right Hon. Gentle- ! not concluded." In the few months that he was at could not maintain any consistency on such a ques_ protest against this new doctrine, by which the eyes
mansaid, that if the Honourable Gentlemen opposite ! the Admiralty, such papers might at least be allowed tion as the present. of Parliament were to be blinded. He must con-
would positively agree that no further delay than !to sleep innocently in the Mansion, and would be The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER demo the practice, also of modern gro. wth, by which
Ministers required, that communications-were to be
Thursday should be required, he would consent to 1, neither thrown out of the window, or back into the fully coincided with his Right Honourable and his
made to them of motions for official papers, pitior to
postpone it till that day ; but Mr. Sheridan said, he I face Of the person who sent them. He had heard it Noble Friends, in the propriety of granting the papers
their submission to the wisdom .and determination
and his frknds could not submit to such a compro- : suggested that the late Ministers had ordered Alex. in question ; but he spoke at some length in vindica-
mise; and a division took place—For Mr. 'Whitbread's I andria to be attacked in a time of profound peace— tion of the present board of Admiralty,-in declining to of she .House.
The first motionswas then! read and agreed to ;
Motion 81 —Against it I IR—Majority 37. I his letter, however, expressly stated to AdMiral Col- bring them forward as public records, in the way pro.:
On being re admitted into the gallery, a further . lingwood, that no hostile steps were to be taken until posed, after being withheld by the Right Honourable after tihich the second was read from the Chair, viz.
" :That an humble address be presented to his -Ma-
conversation ensued ; but it was at length agreed that , Mr. Arbuthnot should acquaint the fleet, that the Gentleman for above twelve months after his removal
the second reading should be fixed for Thursday. - relations of peace and amity between the two coun- from die chief seat at the Admiralty Board.
\ - jesty, that there be laid before this House copies of any'
official communications to the Prince Regent, or his
EXPEDITION TO THE DARDANELLES. tries were at an end. If Lord Collingwood were now Mr. GRENVILLE explained. •
Mr. TAYLOR rose to make the motion of which ,in England, there would be no difficulty in moving Mr. CROKER thought investigation. whollo un- Secretary., which may have been made by Earl St.,
lie had previously given notice. He hoped and trusted I that the letter should be laid before Parliament ; but necessary, as lie was willing to give the late "Mini- Vincent, Lord Rosslyn, and General Simcoe, in con-
•
that the House would feel that the character of the as he was now abroad in the service of his country, stns credit for the best intentions in every thing they sequence of such instructions, with the replies therto."
After some conversation between Mr. Secretary
country was deeply involved in this question. •We: he thought a certified copy of that letter was the best had:done ; but he applauded the conduct of the Ad-
CANNING, Mr. ABERCRaMBIE, and• Mr. WHITBREAD,
had hitherto taken upon ourselves the character of ' evidence that could he had, and that it would be bee- miraltv Board, in refusing to sanction an act which
friends and protectors of the Nations of Europe ; but 1 cessary to justify the late Minister from the charge. Hie:iced like an attempt to fabricate evidence. au amendment . was agreed to, by which an account
henrys now utterly at a loss to conceive why, in this ,of having attacked Alexandria nose period of peace. " Mr. HERBERT spoke to the like purpose. only was required of the execution of the instructions
by the three officers in command.
instance, we had abandoned that character, and why 1 When the Board of Admiralty had sent him back ' Admiral MARKHAM, in allusion to what had
The third motion was next agreed to, requiring
we had chosen to attack the Turkish empire ? He his papers, he took the liberty of returning them, fallen from Mr. Pole, said he was utterly at a loss to
had himself been in that country, and had studied, 1 conceiving it was the right and duty of every subject know what record of the Admiralty Board the Hon.
, copies of any dispatches respecting the sailing of troops
to the port of Lisbon, under the command of Earl St.
with the greatest attention, the habits and manners of ito send to a public Board any documents which he Gentleman had consulted, as he knew of no record of
Vincent, Lord Rosslyn, and General Simeoe.
that nation ; he had anxiously endeavoured to make 1: might happen to possess, that contained valuable
.in- the proceedings of that Board ; which for a long series
himself master of the subject on which he had then the formation. The Board of Admiralty, however, sent of years had ceased even to minute their proceedings, Mr. SHERIDAN observed, that if an Ambassa-
honour of addressing the House ; but he never was back those unfortunate papers a second time, as con- as wholly impracticable from the press of business. dor from England held conferences with no other per-
b son but the Sovereign at whose Court he resided,
able yet to comprehend es•hs- we are now at war with ; ceng them wholly unimportant. It was easy, how- Mr. POLE explained. we could have no other source of information con-
Turkey, what brought our fleet to Constantinople, and ' ever, to conceive, that mane cases might occur where Mr. TAYLOR replied generally to the arguments
corning his conduct, but the conferences with such
what made diem go away from it ? There had been C such papers would be of the ereatest importance. If ' against him.
o
other more recent expedition, he meant that to t there was any question whether Admiral Collingwood ( The question was then put on the first Motion, Sovereign ; and was it to be said that these con-
Copenhagen, which (whatever might be said about had sent an insufficient force to the Dardanelles, those ~ which was carried, with the omission of that part ferences should never be disclosed ? At the time
the policy) diOr. ed most et: aterixtly from this in .the ' papers would be his justification. Under those cir- ! which relates to the secret articles in the treat? with when we made the last peace with France, we ac-
nada and was as eniinciolyl'Atrecasful as the other cum.tances, he thought those papers should be admit. the Ottoman Porte, and the regulations for British knowledged • the First Consul as Sovereign of that
was disastrous ; and yet die Successful expedition svas ', ted as official. • . ships passing the Dardanelles. country.—(Hear ! hear !) When this peace was put
glowed to be a proper sub*Ject of inquiry in Parlia- 1 Mr. WELLESLEY POLE said, that although it Mr. JOHNSTONE, in consistency with his des a- an end to, by the renewil of hostilities, were not the
went, and was sifted to the bottom. He was at a loss ' was the custom for the First Lords of the Admiralty red opinion, that investigation was not necessary, . private confererences that passed between that Sover-
then to conceive, why an
.eapal inquiry should not be to write private letters to Admirals, yet it was per- moved an amendmeut in the Motion respecting the eign and Lord Whitworth, published in this country,
instituted upon an expeditipii.;4;illastrous and so dis- fectly well known that those private letters could not correspondence between his Majesty's Secretary of as the justification of the war ? Now, he contended,
re-
graceful to the British arms.
arms. •
'Tile -honour of our be considered as instructions upon which an Admiral State and Mr. Arbuthnot, resident at Constantinople, that no representation or misrepresentation of the
nar! had been somewhat tainted, and nothing could could act. This very letter mentioned; " that of- ' relative to and connected with the causes of hostili. words used by a foreign. Sovereign, could ever be so
more require a full examination. All that he knew ! ficial instructions would be speedily sent to him ;" ties with Turkey, by omitting every thing after the mischievous as the practice of reading partial and gar-
bled extracts of letters and other documents, and re-
ef the history of the transaction: was, that :lie lifitish which clearly proved, that the Right Honourable word " relative, ' and inserting " the causes of hosti- ,
fusing to produce the whole of them when called for.
Ambassador suddenly left Constantinople, and that on Gentleman did not himself suppose that his own lilies now existing with the Ottoman Porte."
the led of February a British fleet attacked and de- private letter was instructions sufficient for any Ad- Mr. WILBERFORCE thought Parliament ought
\ A view of the whole would give a very different
impression from what must be felt, when only a part
slreeed a Turkish squadron in the Dardanelles ; that mural. This letter evritten by the Right. Honour- to enquire into the causes of every war, with any ,
they afterwards appeared before Constantinople, and able Gentleman so long ago as the month of No- country ; and thotesh he objected to the amendment '
o i was made known.
staid there for many days, and then went away with- 1 vember 1806 ; and yet it was only a few days ago proposed, as omitting other words, he had no objet-. I The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
out effecting any one ofoject.fer which they could be i that he applied Those Beard to make this an oill. non to it in addition to the motion. . i said, he agreed with his Right Hon. Friend, that con-
tunosed to have been sent there. He was sure that i dal document. s letters which he did not corn- Lord HENRY PETTY said, it was incumbent on I siderable inconvenience must be produced from pee-
the country was as much in the dark as he was re- municate to any body while in office, and which he the country to justify itself to the world, for being at lishing the. conversations with Sovereigns ; and the
specting tee causes of those operations : as they had ' took away with him when he left office, were now war with Turkey at all. The principle of the war ' practice ought generally to be abstained from. 'the
been most unfortunate in their result, he thoeght, i seaa;lit tobe rendered official. As to the sending back ought to be discussedeas well as the military sery ; would not, however, go so far as to say, that no ch..
that the country was entitled to the fullest satis- I the Right Hon. Gentleman's letters, it was a circum- He was therefore against omitting any words from curnstances could occur in which it oughtnotto be alo
faction with re•spcct to all the circumstances con- ' stance which he could easily account fez. In the ;the motion. i stained from. There might be occasions when it
i
netted pares t. He concluded by moving fora nom- • month o May he sent some letters inclosed to Lord Mr. CANNING proposed that the original motion 'would be proper to make such communications pub.
bet of
papers : the first was rr a copy of ilie defensive Mulgrave, who, considering them to be matters for . should stand, together with the amendment, which Bonn but there should always be a sitting geatmd fi r
treaty of alliance with Tin key, signed the sth Janu- the information of his Majesty's Ministers, circulated was agreed to. ' eso which did not exist in the present insiance :
6 ,
! i
are, 1799, together with the secret articles, if any, of them among the Cabinet. A few days after, the , The other motions were then.severally aereed o. Ihe would therefore opposeehe motion.
0
the ' said treaty." He alto moved for a cOpy of the I Right Hon. Gentleman wrote to Lord Mulgrave for PAPERS REGARDING PORTUGAL. 1 Mr. GEO. PONSONBY said, the best times in
treaty between Russia and the Porte, signed in the I the letters he sent back to him. His LordshipABERCROMBIE said, that the information ' our history were:those when every thing was Mv..
month of January, Ibtr, and of the coll'espondence I plied, that he had conceived the papers inclosed were obtained regarding CoPcnbaZens was just enough to public, and when too much cenfidence' was not re-
between his majesty's secretary of State and Mr. 'for the information of his Majesty's Ministers, and exite Suspicion, but was not sufficient to give any satis. posed in Ministers. He wished gentlemen to see what
Arbu6-not, tooether With the correspondence with ! had put them into circulation among the Cabinet.— facto explanation of the conduct of-Mitusterto He the doctrine no* held out would lead to. The conie.:
Adtuir ' C lli`
ai o ligwood, and our in ..
Admirals • the Me- I The Right Hon. Gentleman, in his answer to this let- hoped this temper of reserve would not be shewn in quence would be that Ministers might shelter the:r
cliterranean." I ter, expressed great surprize, stated that they were respect to the pepers he should apply for in a trans- misconduct under these forms- An Ambassador from
Mr. Secretary tANeteelG said, that he expected ' private and confidential communications, which had action that bore so near an analogy to that proceed- this country might have treacherous designs, and eley
that the Gentlemen on the other side of the louse not been imparted even to his colleagues. The poi- ing :he meant the papers connected with the negoci- must be all kept concealed because the Foreign gove.
•

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