The Sun.
London, England, 1845-06-10 00:00:00

111 A.YNOOTH COLLEGE BILL.

The Earl of CLANCARTY gave notice that, on the motion
for going into Committee on this Bill, he should move that it
be committed that day six months.
PARTY PROCESSIONS IN IRELAND.

The Marquis of CLANRICARDE gave notice that, on
Friday, he should present a petition from Leitrim on the
state of that county, and that he should put a question to the
Government respecting party processions in Ireland.
NOTTINGHAM AND LINCOLN RAILWAY.
Lord BROUGHAM presented a petition from the Earl of
Chesterfield against this Bill, which was referred to the Com-
mittee.

THE PERTH RAILWAY.
The NOBLE and LEARNED LORD presented a petition from
Perth and its neighbourhood against this railway passing the
Inches.

MAYNOOTH.
The Earl of FITZWILLIAM presented a petition from
Stourbridge against the Maynooth grant.
Lord BROUGHAM presented a petition from Bath against
the grant to Maynooth.
The LORD CHANCELLOR presented petitions from Car-
rickfergus and other places in favour of the grant.
The Earl of BANDON presented petitions against the grant.
Lord KENYON presented similar petitions.
MR. BARRY, LORD BROUGHAM, AND THE NEW
HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT.

Lord WHARNCLIFFE ruse to call the attention of the
House to what had fallen from his Noble and Learned Friend
on Thursday last, respecting the progress that was making in
the erection of the new Houses of Parliament. His Noble and
Learned Friend, on Thursday last, made some very severe re-
marks on the architect of the new buildings. His Noble
Friend on that occasion said, " I don't regard the as-
surance of Mr. Barry as being so much worth as
the paper on which it is written." Now that was an
accusation which nobody could sit quietly under. He did not
think that his Noble and Learned Friend was justified in snaking
such an accusation. He did not think that Mr. Barry had ever
given an assurance as to the time the new buildings would
be finished, although he might have given an opinion.
Again, Mr. Barry had been charged with fencing with the
House, and resisting their Lordship? wishes. To that, however,
he had given his most unqualified denial. He moreover was
charged with being foolish, short-sighted, and ignorant, fancying
he had protection out of that House, the Noble Lord adding,
" but if ha thinks so, he will fiud himself greatly mistaken.'
He asserts, however, that he relies on no protection, and
feels himself actuated by no such impression as had
been imputed to him. On the contrary, it was his earnest
desire to consult the opinion of the House in every respect, as
it was his intention, if possible, of making the building now in
progress fit for occupation next session.
Lord BROUGHAM remembered the time when it would
not be tolerated in either House that a man should
complain of the language used by its Members. Such
a proceeding was wholly irregular, and was not allowed
in Parliamentary usage. However, whether Mr. Barry's con-
duct were irregular or not, he would make him a present of the
concession that it was perfectly correct ; but as to any asser-
tion he had made on the promises of that gentleman, he did
not mean to retract one word. If a man before a
Committee chose to swear that by a certain period
a certain work should he completed, he must stand
by the imputation that was chosen to be put upon the breach
of such a pledge. As to its being said that the opinion was no
assurance, wby everything de futuro was contingent. The
assurance was positive, specific, and understood as such.
Like a man who, having obtained small damages, comes and
asks for a new trial and then gets smaller, so having not
got much before, Mr. Barry should not get much mare
now. As to the expression that he was the cause
of our absence from the House, the delay of business
in another department was the cause; and as Tully had said
of the subject of his panegyric, that he was not eloquent but
the ideal of oratory itself—as Littleton said of Coke, that he
was net only unrivalled in his knowledge of the law, but the
came of law itself—so would he say of Mr. Barry, that he was
not only dilatory but thepersonification, the very name of delay.
The first plea offered was, that the building should be opened
all at once, but now the great consideration was the adorning
of the rooms. Mr. Barry consithred that he should suit the
convenience of the fine arts, whereas the real object to be
suited was the somewhat coarse but necessary art of legisla-
tion. Mr. Barry was only anxious for the accommodation of
the fine arts, and he had an ingenious excuse in submitting to
the convenience of the Commission, as Prince Albert was the
head of it. For this, it would appear, they were to be incon-
venienced in legislation.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE merely rose to say that
he agreed in all that his Noble and Learned Friend had said
the other evening and that night on the subject. Mr. Barry had
given opinions as to the finishing of the building which
had been perfectly falsified. At first they had a pledge that,
at the end of two years, at least a part of the building
should be ready for their accommodation ; but now, at the
end of eight years, he declines giving any pledge. He (Lord
Clanricarde) would, however, say that any assurance or
opinion coming from such a quarter was little to be relied on.
The letter which had been read by the Noble and Learned
Lord ( Wharncliffe), stated that the works would
be pushed on as soon as possible, but it was
evident that his (Mr. Barry's) whole proceeding was entirely
opposed to this. He had promised the Committee that he
would do what he could to facilitate the works, whereas he
was engaged in finishing the ornaments and decorations of the
towers, instead of attending to that part intended for the pur-
poses of legislation.
Lord CAMPBELL said he believed that Mr. Barry was a
very great architect, and a very honourable man, but there
was not the smallest doubt but that he had set at defiance the
pledges he had given. Ha would illustrate his ( Lord Camp-
bell's) opinion on the matter, by ref!rence to the Society of
Lincoln's Inn-fields. They lately ordered a new hall to be
bui►t, a more important building than the mere chamber which
was necessary for their Lordships' use, and though it was only
commenced a year and a half ago, it was now perfect, and
would be taken possession of next month. He was of opinion,
that had the architect of Lincoln's Inn-fields been employed on
the Houses of Parliament, whatever differences might have
been between the decorations, he was certain there would have
been no complaint of this kind brought forward.
Several Noble Lords presented petitions against the May-
nooth Endowment Bill.
Earl CHA RLE VILLE gave notice that he would, to-
morrow, move for copies of ail correspondence which had
taken place between the Irish Government and certain sti-
pendiary magistrates in the King's County and Tipperary on
the subject of a Repeal meeting held in Parsonstown.
The Marquis of L ANSDOWNE presented several petitions
against the Parochial Settlements Bill, which ha thought would
never reach their Lordships' House.
SMALL DEBTS BILL.

Numerous petitions were presented against the Small Debt
Bill.

Lord BROUGHAM thereupon observed that it would be
desirable to give the Commissioners the power of examining
the debtor, and getting from him the most thorough explanation.
Lord CAMPBELL said this Bill had his full support, but
there was one clause in it that was unnecessary. He alluded
to the clause which provided that it was unnecessary for a
debtor or creditor to employ a solicitor, counsel, or agent.
Now that was, he aperehended, wholly unnecessary, unless
there were an Act of Parliament requiring debtors and credi-
tors to employ counsel and solicitors. Any person in a suit
might appear in person.
The Bill was then read a third time and passed.
The Marquis of BREADALBANE presented a petition
against the Maynooth grant.
PORT PATRICK AND DONAGHADEE.

The Marquis of LONDONDERRY rose to put the ques-
tion of which he had given notice. He complained of the
packet system between Port Patrick and Donaghadee, and
of the nigzardly manner in which the Government dealt with
the packets and these harbours. Whatever work they had com-
pleted in summer, at the expense of a few paltry hundred
pounds, was sure to be carried completely away in winter. If
they constructed a packet-station for the sum of 20,00:.1., it
would be a strong inducement to the Belfast Railway Company
to carry their project into effect. If they gave such a sum of
money as would make these harbours effective, they would pre-
vail upon that Company to construct their railway, whereby
they would create a shorter mode of carrying the mails from
the north of England to Belfast, than by any other means what-
ever. It was a subject of the greatest importance. He hoped
he had brought this subject forward in a manner calculated to
interest Irishmen and the public generally in its importance;
and if the House meant to serve Ireland, they would deal with
the proposition with no niggard hand.
Lord HADDING TON said ho rose to reply to a question
which his Noide Friend intended to put, but which he did
not put.—(Laughter.) If the railway which had been thrown
out was completed, the remedy which the Noble Lord com-
plained of, might have been remedied. The Government did
not think it right to lay out any large sums of money at Port-
patrick, in order to carry out the arrangements suggested by
the Noble Lord—they had already expended large sums there,
and were not inclined at present to expend more. The ves-
sels engaged in the passage between Portpatrick and Donagha-
dee were efficient, and the harbour was maintained in a proper
condition.
The Marquis of NORTHAMPTON did not think the Go-
vernment should hesitate to lay out a small sum of money to
make any arrangement that might facilitate the intercourse be-
tween the two countries. Nothing should be left undone to
promote a better and a kinder feeling between the people of the
two countries.—( Hear, hear.)
The Earl of ELLENBOROUG El thought the harbour un-
able to accommodate the packets which left it.
After a law words, the subject dropped.
LANDLORD AND TENANT COMMISSION
(IRELAND) BILL.
Lord STANLEY then rose, and after the presentation of
some petitions for an 1 against the 'Maynooth grant, said, he '
would proceed to explain the nature of the Bill, which, on
behalf of the Government, he now brought forward, and
which would enable them to give compensation for improve-
ments to tenants in Ireland. As the Bill was of an unusual
character, he would, previously to mentioning its provisions,
make a statement of the motives which had induced the Go-
vernment to bring forward a measure of this description.
His Noble Friend, whom he did not then see in his place,
had expressed regret that Ireland had been so often
made the battle-field of contending political parties. On the
present occasion, happily, there was no such danger, and
whatever the merits of the measure might be, or whatever
difference might exist regarding them, the objects which they
had in view—the agricultural improvement of Ireland, and
theirr aing the condition of the agricultural population—must have
Lordships' unanimous concurrence. The report of the
~,r7Tr atlillirm-1 of which his Noble Friend (the Earl of Devon)
at the head, if it did not contain anything striking, it
least, the merit of bringing forward a mass of unsus-
pected testimony from all parts of the country, which had
been analysed
atidc
evils which brought to bear on the most prominent
those
the country. The report not only
pointed out
—( HeLr.)t teh evils, but specified remedies for them.
the following passage commencement of that report he found
be entertained on oiehe—" Whatever difference of opinion may
matters, the testimony given was uni-
rthe unimproved form in representing
proved state of extensive dis-
tricts, the want of em lo
and hardship under wiilichymaei-lit, and the consequent poverty
population continually laboured, and arge portion of the agricultural
remunerative employment as a means
the necessity of providing
ne of bettering the condition
of the people." Any one
who
knew
be aware, that between the populaticonanYthing of Ireland must
of Ireland and the pre-
sent means of employment there was a
tion. That must be corrected by one of
two very large dispropor-
reducing the people to the limits of the means of either by
O
or increasing the employment so as to make it adequate to the
employment,
population. —( Hear, hear). The first was supported by
those
who advocated emigration as a remedy. He did not deny
that,
under certain circumstances, a system of emigration carried
out with prudence, humanity and discretion, might be benefi-
cial, and place those who remained behind under much more
favourable circumstances. But he could not look upon a sys-
tem of emigration as capable of relieving the general distress,
such as at present existed in Ireland. There were great evils
and liabilities to abuse in any system of emigration. It should
not be compulsory ; for if so, it Would be tyrannical and op-
pressive, and, indeed, under the most fav-z-mrabl ocheances,
the warm attachment of the Irish peasant particular
locality in which he was born and reared rendered
the most careful system of emigration a pail,
ful sacrifice of domestic feeling. Besides, they could not
with due consideration for their colonial possessions, be content

in removing from this country vast masses of labourers, and of
labourers only. Even if the State had at its disposal great quanti-
ties of unoccupied land, it was nothing more than removing
from their own eyes miseries which they were unwilling to see,
but which miseries would be in the colonies much aggravated.
They must send capital to employ these labourers, and involve
themselves in a great expenditure, even if they had, as he said,
unoccupied land at their disposal. That was an expense which
this country would not bear. The capital requisite for such a
system of emigration, comparing it with the present, would not
be less than 2,000,0001. They must be careful what class of
persons they sent out. If they sent out the able-bodied, active,
and industrious, they were depriving the mother country of
her strength ; if they sent out the idle, the helpless, the infirm,
and the aged, they were only placing them in a much worse
position—sending them to certain destruction. He thought emi-
gration might be, to a certain extent, relied on, though
in Ireland he thought it would not answer. They must, there.
fore, take the alternative—increase the employment, so as to
make it adequate to the wants of the population. Although
the population was superabundant in many districts of that
country he was not prepared to say that Ireland was an over-
peopled country.—( Hear, hear.) There were vast districts
there capable of improvement, of being brought into cultiva-
tion, and which would occupy a vast quantity of labour. Mr.
Griffith, in his report, stated there was, in Ireland, of unoccupied
waste land, capable of being brought into tillage, 1,30C,000
acres, and 2,400,000 acres which might be provided for
pasturage, so that there were at present in Ireland 3,700,000
acres of land which might be reclaimed. Much of that land,
too, which would be productive of crops, that would amply re-
munerate the agriculturists. The produce per acre of land in
Ireland as compared with England did not amount to half the
value, although double the amount of labourers were employed
upon the Irish land. In England there were cultivated
34,254,000 acres, in Ireland 14,603,000 acres. The produce in
England was 41. 7s. 6d. per acre, in Ireland 21. 9s. 3d. There
were employed in Ireland 100,000 more labourers on the
14,000,000 of acres than in England with its 34,000,000. He
might thereupon safely say, that in Ireland they did not want
space. What they wanted was capital for the employment of
labourers.—( Hear, hear,) That capital could only come from
three sources—from the State, from the landlord, or from the
occupying tenant. He did not undervalue the improvements
which had been effected by the State. Great and valuable
alterations had been effected in this country lit, his Noble Friend
opposite, when at the head of the Woods and Forests, and
which had been profitable to the Crown, and to the country,
by expending public money in bringing into cultivation large
tracts of country which had been entirely waste. But he didnot
think this was the legitimate source from which they ought to de-
rive capital, and the landlords or tenants ought not to be en-
couraged to look to it. The State had vary properly removed
the impediments which prevented the landlords from improving
their property, and beneficial results had ensued; but the third
was the grand source upon which he relied. The most
important of all—he meant encouraging the occupying
tenant to invest his capital in the land—(hear)—an object
which had not yet been brought under their Lordships' atten-
tion, and which was yet well worthy of their Lordships' con-
sideration, not only because there might be engaged in the
cultivation of the soil a large amount of capital which was now
idle, but because that improvement would engage the indus-
try and skill of the population, give them an interest in the
soil, and a desire to maintain and increase the peace, good
order, and welfare of the country. —( Hear, hear.) Perhaps
it might seem extraordinary to talk of the capital of the occu-
pying tenants. He admitted many of them were in penurious
circumstances ; but some of that class of persons, however
they became possessed of it, were masters of sums of money
which would astonish many of their Lordships ; and one of
the most unhappy features in the state of the country was
that these men refused to invest such money in the land. In
England the tenant was anxious to display his capital to the land-
lord when about to take a farm; in Ireland, the tenant con-
cealed it, afraid that either the landlord, the clergy,
or other claimants would be more extravagant in
their demands upon him. But however this might be
with respect to money there was no doubt but in Ireland there
was a superabundance of labour and industry, and this was the
species of capital which he wished their Lordships to invite the
tenantry of Ireland to bestow upon the land —( Hear, hear.)
' He asked them not only to call forth that capital, but to give
the tenant a security in its investment. He knew that inter-
ference between landlord and tenant would be objected to by
many of their Lordships, and if the relation of landlord and
' tenant were the same in Ireland as in this country he would
not advocate the present measure. But the circumstances of
the two countries were in this respect so widely different that
no comparison whatever could be made. In England the land-
lords were mostly resident —he would not say they were all unin-
cumbered—but there was a kind feeling between them and
their tenantry promoted and nurtured by frequent intercourse
—the intermediate lessees were in England almost unknown.
The farms in England were of considerable extent, extending
to many hundreds of acres. A farm of fifty or sixty acres was
generally considered small. Again there was a distinction be-
tween the farmers and the agricultural labourers. There were
some few exceptions, but as a rule, they were as a class dis-
tinct. In England also, it was the practice for the landlord in
the first instance to place the buildings in a tenantable state
of repair. Iu all parts of Ireland was the case not only dis-
similar, bat precisely the reverse.—( Hear, hear). There the
quantity of land held by each tenant was small, while the num-
ber of holders was very large. The landlords were non-resi-
dents, and a large portion of land was held by middle men,
who let it out at rack rent to other parties, who were generally
tenants at will. In fact, nearly all the land in Ireland was let
upon that tenure, leases being the exception not the rule ; un-
like England, where leases were the rule and not the exception
—the exception being in cases where successive generations had
occupied the same farms, and had full confidence in the honour
and generosity of their landlords. That the farms in Ire-
land were of the smallest possible dimensions would appear
from the Report of the Poor-law Commissioners for 1844.
That report stated that of 1,149,000 rateable tenants, there
were 629,000 or 630,000, or half the number, rated under Si.
In the same report, it was stated that 25 acres, 20 acres, or 15
constituted large farms—( Hear, hear.) Twenty-five acres
was held to be an exorbitant possession of land ; and 25 acres,
down to 10 acres, or to give them the benefit of Irish acres,
from 15 to 20 statute acres were looked upon as far more than
any tenant should be allowed to occupy. These farms were
held at rack rent, and the usual practice was for the tenant to
maintain in a state of repair all buildings, drains, and fences,
or they were not repaired at all ; a duty that in England was
performed by the landlords. Let their Lordships imagine this
country divided into portions of 20 acres and under, and let
out by intermediate leases at a rack rent to the smaller holders,
tenants-at-will ' • let them imagine the houses in which those
tenants resided, mere hovels ; let them imagine the soil un-
drained, and the tillage neglected. Let them imagine this state
of things, and could they expect that improvements could go
forward? Yet that was the condition of the greater portion of
Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) Was that a state of things that
ought to be allowed to exist? He would now look at the prac-
tical results of this system—of depriving the tenants of all en-
couragement to make improvements. In doing this, he would
refer to the Commissioner's Report. In the north of Ireland
a system prevailed, called the " Tenant Right ;" but which
had been much better explained by the tenants themselves, who
called it " purchasing the good-will of the farms." The prac-
tice was, for the tenants.at-will, if they were obliged to leave
their farms, to sell out to their successors the improvements
which had been made upon the land by them during their occu-
pancy. The evil is, that unless the tenant does this, he
loses all the improvements he may have made. There were
always needy competitors ready to take the land under this
arrangement; and there was no use in the landlords giving en-
couragement t) the tenants by low rents, as, if the tenant re-
tired, he would sell the improvement to his successor, and thus
no real benefit would be conferred. The rule and general
practice was to pay, under this system, ten or fifteen years'
purchase of the land, for the privilege of occupying it. This
was an evil only a degree less than that which prevailed in
other parts of Ireland In the south of Ireland the farms were
held by fear. The bulk of landlords durst not remove the idle
and improvident tenants to make way for industrious and well-
disposed tenants, with energy and capital, to improve the land.
For this state of things the Government proposed a legal
remedy. They proposed that if a tenant were obliged to leave
his farm before he reali=ed the benefits of his improvements,
hat compensation should be given him. In the plan which he
would proceed to state he might disappoint many, who irna-
ginei that the measure about to be proposed would be one to
elevate the tenant at the expense of the rights of the landlords.
This was not the ease. He did not propose to interfere either
with the granting of leases, or the regulation of the rents to be
charged. He only proposed that the tenant should not be turned
out of the land penniless, or without compensatioe.—( Hear,
hear.) In speaking of compensation, he included in the term
tenant all who held land, with the exception of these who took
land for cropping or temporary purposes, and who made no al-
teration in the land by the way of improvement ; he meant by
landlords those immediately above the tenants who let the land
and who received the rents ; and by eviction he meant the re-
moval of any party that held land in an immediate or direct
manner. There were three objects to be considered in granting
compensation. First—buildings ; second—draining ; third—
fencing. He might explain that fencing was peculiar to Ire-
land, and when he spoke of fencing, he meant ditching, which
was an embankment with a ditch cut on each side of it.—
( Laughter.) With respect to buildings erected by tenants he
proposed that they should be estimated for thirteen years. The
compensation to lie reduced one thirteenth each year the tenant
remained in possession until the end of the thirteen years, when
it was presumed the tenant, if he removed, had received the
value of his outlay. The same principle was to be applied to
draining. The drains, which were to be efficiently con-
structed, and at least thirty inches deep, were to
be compensated for at the rate of fourteen years, allow-
ing
one-fourteenth to be reduced each year, so that at the
end of the fourteen years the tenant would have received all
the benefits of his drainage. The next was levelling fences.
Those who were acquainted with the south of Ireland knew
that what was called a fence in England was called a ditch there.
—(Laughter.) This fence, which was an embankment, with
a ditch on each side of it, was often wide enough to drive a car
upon it ; the average width, in many instances, nut being less
than eleven yards. They were used as inclosures of fields,
vary often not more than three, two, or one acre of land. They
rarely ever ran parallel to eaeh other, or were straight,
but were constructed in the most crooked and fig-zag
manner possible. Nor were these fences what they pur-
ported to be, for there was not a horse, cow, pig, or
sheep, far less an Irish colt, but what could easily
run over them. In fact, these were only masses of crumbling
earth. If these did not constitute fences, their removal was
much to be desired, as by so doing a considerable addition
would be made to the acreage of the farms. It would
add 12, 14, 15, and, in some cases 20 per cent. to
the acreage. This would require no exercise of skill or
capital—nothing but labour ; and the mass removed
could be used with great advantage for top-dressing.
The land gained by the removal of these unsightly impedi-
ments to agriculture he proposed should be added to the quan-
tity originally held by the tenant, and the whole taken at
twenty years' purchase according to the acreable value, deduct-
ing a twentieth part for compensation. Supposing the value of
the improvement was set down at 1001., then the compensa-
tion would be diminished at the rate of 52. per annum, till the
end of twenty years. The compensation under the three
heads he had named, he proposed to be limited in extent—
namely, 31. per acre for buildings, 1/. per acre for
repairs, or 31. per acre for draining. This compensation was
only to be allowed in cases where the tenant was ejected by
the landlord. The measure called upon the landlord to do one
of two things—either to allow the tenant a certainty of occu-
pancy, or to grant him compensation in case of his removal.
It would, however, be required for these improvements to be
be real and substantial ere compensation was allowed. Ile
next proceeded to speak of the machinery necessary to carry
out these arrangements. There was an Act in existence,
known by the title of Mr. Pusey's Act, which enabled tenants
to charge the estates with the improvements which they made,
hut the legal forms were so tedious and expensive as altoge-
ther to supersede the intention of the Act. The provisions of
that Bill could not be taken. The Assistant Barristers' Courts
had likwise been named, but it was very objectionable on ac-
count of the expense. The Revising Barristerheld his court di4-
taut from the localities where its adjudication would be required;
and there would be the greatest difficulty in viewing the im-
provements, or in bringing witnesses to be examined. The
Duly i
devised
tet 7 oe tte.
~,,tihaai
et s
thy
?s
Gconceivede
ncto, uld
which be
hma,he
de
was wh aa sp p tyh
taot
say had met with the approval of his Noble and Learned Friend
established in Dublin an office, and
(the Lord Chancellor). It was tahnatoffithceerre w shhoo u
wl do
übl
de
be entitled the (= Commissioner of Improvements."
They proposed that that officer should be assisted by
ant commissioners, and that a board—a voluntary -and unpaid
beard---should bssi also established for the purpose of granting
certificate 3 of quali4catiQn to such persons desirous of acting in
Dublin or the count.l.dil4*# of trelmd—of actingas assist-
-

ant commissioners, to be remunerated from time to time, as
might be decided upon. Supposing a tenant, desirous of effect-
ing certain improvements in his land, he would require to write
up to the Commissioners of Improvements in Dublin for the
purpose of ascertaining whether the maximum outlay allowed
by law had been arrived at in this case. On receiving
back printed instructions, one to be retained by the tenant—
the other to be filled up and returned to the Commissioners,
and afterwards to be served upon the landlord ; and a provision
was further made, ordering that a similar notice should be also
served upon the superior landlord, so that no one who could be
really interested in the question should be left in ignorance.
If the landlord dissented from the intended improvements, it
was required that he he should do so within three weeks, when
a preliminary inquiry would be established—an Assistant Com-
missioner would be sent down to the spot, there to examine
into the nature of the improvements desired, and the probability
of their being found useful. He would then report to the
Chief Commissioners in Dublin the nature of those improve-
ments, the amount of outlay required, and whether that outlay
would be calculated to add to the ultimate value of the farm.

In answer to a question from the Earl of DEVON,
Lord STANLEY said it was not required that the corn.
plaining tenant sbould go up to Dublin. He would only re•
quire to write to the Commissioners, anal a subsequent corn
munication would be made to the landlord.

A NouLE LORD—Or his agent?
Lord STANLEY—Yes, or his agent. It was a principle
in the measure that full notice should be given to all parties
concerned. Supposing that the tenant shoul be evicted before
the term of his compensation expired, then the Assistant-
Commissioner would go to the spot, examine the state of the
improvements, and report the same to the Commissioner in
Dublin. He will certify whether any future deduction riti2ht
to be taken from that tenant for the bad state of the buildings
and the drainage, and if not, then the tenant shall receive com-
pensation for the unexpired period of the terms. It might be
said that this would bear hard on the landlords, who had num-
bers of small tenants on their estates, and more particularly
hard on those who had tenants for life. They proposed, how-
ever, as he had already stated, to introduce a pro-
vision allowing the landlord to withhold certain sums
by instalment in order to remunerate himself, the
period over which these instalments extended, to be twenty
years. He thought he had now stated in detail the objects
of the Government in introducing this measure, and he had
brought forward enough, he thought, to induce their Lordships
to give their deliberate judgments to the subject before them.
The Bill was most important, not only to the landlords but
to the tenants of Ireland, and whether they regarded the con-
dition of the former, or of the latter, the subject was equally
interesting. It would be for them to consider whether the
principles which the Government had sought to introduce
in this measure were calculated for the good of Ireland, and
whether they had steered a middle course, not seeking to in-
jure the property of the more powerful class on the one hand,
or to forget the rights of the humbler classes on the other.
He should leave the question with their Lordships, and he
sincerely prayed that they might so frame it that it would
be found furthering the property and welfare of Ireland.
Lord CLANRICA RDE was glad to hear that the Govern-
ment had brought forward the subject of the landlords and
tenants in Ireland, because he thought that any legislation on
the subject was exceedingly difficult, and more especially was it
difficult for any private party in that House to introduce any
measure on such a subject, and therefore he repeated he was
glad that the Government had taken the Bill into their own
hands, and he was glad also that the Irish landlords would be
relieved from any imputation which their eonnexion with the
introduction of the measure would be apt to create. He had
particularly observed how very cautious the Noble Lord was
in speaking of the tenants who had been evicted for arrears of
rent. Now, in his (Lord Clanricarde's) experience, he had
never known a person so evicted who had not been owing a
very large amount of rent. Landlords had been greatly abused
for having been concerned in what were called clearances, but
in some cases there were eight or ten persons existing on half
an acre of land, and it was absolutely necessary to turn out
some that the others. might live. There might have been indi-
vidu4l cases of hardship, but he was perfectly sure that in the
great majority of cases landlords were most unjustly accused.
He was assured that, as far as this Bill went, it would do little
to remedy the evils which had been complained of.
The Earl of WICKLOW said that from what he had heard
of this measure from time to time, he had certainly expected a
great deal from it, but having now had the advantage of hear-
ing its details from the Noble Lord, he confessed he did not
think it would be found of any great benefit to any class in
Ireland. It might, however, be possible to effect some im-
provement in it in its future stages.
The Earl of ROSSE said that he thought the House and
the country ought to be very much obliged to the Noble Lord
for bringing forward the Bill, but there were many provisions
in the Bill which were objectionable, and which he would take
the opportunity of discussing on the second reading of the all.
For the reason which he had stated, he would not oppose the
first reading of the Bill.
The Earl of DEVON said that from the observations which
were made, he felt it necessary to say a few words. In the
first place, it was a very great mistake to imagine that his Noble
Friend was putting this Bill forward as a panacea to cure all
the evils which had been brought to light by the inquiry which
had taken place. It was intended to cure a particular evil, and
to give the tenant the ability to make improvements without
any apprehension,—by enabling him to put into use his only
capital, namely, himself and son, which he could not now do,
as he was afraid that both himself and son might be turned out.
He found that in every part of Ireland there was distioct evi-
dence that in very large districts that difficulty aro.e, and that
persons who would he competent to make great improvements,
were prevented from doing so, from being under that appre-
hension. Perhaps, a great number had not been immediately
turned out, after having made improvements ; but if in any
district one was so turned out, the apprehension was so strong
that the whole population of the neighbourhood were restrained
from making improvements at all. He, therefore, beseeched the
House, that when they looked at it clearly, they would consider
that they were not now proposing this measure to them as a
measure calculated to produce a state of things the best that
could be produced; but that they were only endeavouring to
apply a practical remedy to that which was a great practical
evil.—( Hear, hear.) His Noble Friends in that House might
never have had any disposition on their part to turn out te-
nants without compensation. They knew that such cases had
not arisen under their own management ; but they would
find out, if they took the trouble to wade through their
evidence, that there were many instances in which
such had been the case in Ireland. Thus the want of improve-
ment may arise. Suppose that an estate may be very much sub-
divided, held by tenants from the original landlord—suppose it
to be very much divided into portions of fifteen acres or nine
acres, as was very frequently the case, it was out of the ques-
tion, from the position of the land, no matter what the goodness
of his disposition, to expect that the tenant will be able to keep
a decent house, to have his cattle:well fed, or drain his land,
though it may be performed, without much of the landlord's
money, by the labour of the tenant. He would ask them to
look at the evils that existed. It was not a new question ; it was
not brought before them for the first time by the Commis-
sioners or by her Majesty's Government ; it was a question
submitted to the Legislature more than once, twice, or thrice;
as it was thought necessary, by statesmen of various opinions,
with respect to Ireland, that something should be done in
that respect. It was thought requisite that whenever a tenant
had expended his capital on any property he should be entitled
to some remuneration. It was said that it ought entirely to be
left to the voluntary arrangements of the landlord and tenants.
There were many cases arising in which the landlords could not
make any such arrangements. With respect to the machinery
he had better say nothing, but there was one point which his
Noble Friend referred to respecting the inapplicability of the
measure. In the greatest portion of landholdings in Ireland it
would be found simple and easy of application. He knew per-
folly well that there were many instances in which the land-
lords in Ireland had been unjustly rebuked, but making full al-
lowance for the exaggeration that had been applied to the con-
duct of the landlords, he should allow that the fact was that the
tenants were in the most miserable state, and required assist-
ance and relief, and he hoped that their Lordships would give
the mea-ure a most calm and cool consideration.

Lord PORTMAN said that he felt the most unqualified and
sincere disappointment at the measure of her Majesty's Go-
vernment. He was the more disappointed, because he hoped
that his Noble Friend would be his best ally in carrying out a
measure which he (Lord Portman) contemplated for the
tenants in England. He was led by his Noble Friend's speech
at Liverpool to believe that he would be glad to extend the
' same measure to the tenants of England as he was willing to
extend to the tenants of Ireland. He would be able, in a few
days, to bring in a measure for defining, with the aid of a Com-
mittee, tenants' rights, and which would give a remedy both
to landlord and tenant, by going before arbitrators,
without going to the expense of a court of law. —( Hear.)
He did think the Noble Lord's plan was a very expensive mode
of carrying out the proposed supervision. Then, again, it
was proposed that the maximum sum to be allowed for im-
provements should be 5/. per acre; he did not think that a good
mode, or a very safe one, of proceeding, for it approached too
near the tee-simple. He thought the better plan would be,
to fix the amount upon an average of a certain number of
years' rental. The next proposition was, that the expense of
levelling fences should be spread over a =pace of twenty years.
He could not approave of that, for the levelling of the fence
might cost the landlord 201., which he would pay at once,
while the tenant had twenty-five years to pay it. He would
not enter into the details of this measure ; and his object in
making the few observations he had done, was to show the in-
applicability of this measure to England. He was ready to
admit, that in Ireland the tenantry had a feeling of insecurity
as to their holdings; indeed, he had heard of one in-
stance where an Irish tenant had a lease of eighteen
years, yet it contained a clause of surrender every six
months, which the landlord was under the necessity of noticing
regularly, lest some advantage might be taken of him. This
state of insecurity was proposed by this bill to be remedied,
not by giving a tenant securiy, but compensation. He would
not detain their Lordships now; but he would, upon a future
occasion, be prepared with a measure which he conceived would
be more applicable to England.
The Marquis of WESTMEATH would not have risen to
say anything upon this subject, but that he would be sorry that
observations should go forth to the public which would be dis-
advantageous to the class he belonged to, if he did not say a
few words in explanation. When he first heard of this mea-
sure, he felt that it was calculated to interfere with the
rights of property, and he was of the same opinion still ;
and he did think that many of the statements made before the
Commission, as to grievances of tenants, were got up merely for
the purpose of affording an excuse f r a revolution in the
country ; but upon a calm investigation many of them would
be found to have been exaggerated. For instance, he had
heard it said that the tenants in Ireland, who may have accu-
mulated a sum of money, were afraid to let their landlords
know it, lest it should be an excuse for demanding an in-
creased rent. Now, he did not wish that that statement
should go forth to the public, and he should say that he never
heard of such instance, and therefore it should not go forth un-
contradicted. Another statement he bad heard was, that the
improvements were always borne by the tenant, ani that also
he knew was an exaggeration. With regard to tenants not
getting leases, he believed the report contained evidence to the
effect that many tenants htd declined to take leases. He did
think that landlords would rather be inclined to give leases;
for in that case, if the tenant declined to pay his rent, the land-
lord could elect him without much trouble, while, in
the former case, they had no such remedy. As to
tenants being pressed upon by the landlords in Ireland, and
that such a thing was unknown in England, he would contend
for it that such should not be stated as a general rule, and ls•
denied the proposition altogether. He did not mean to say that
his Noble Friend had made these statements; but they had
been made, and the discussion of them abroad often also in-
volved a discussion upon the safety of the landlord.
The question was then put, and the Bill was read a first time,
and ordered to be read a second time on Monday next.
CANAL TOLLS BILL.

Lord HATHERTON moved that the Canal Company's
Tolls Bill be read a second time, which was agreed to ; as was
also the second reading of the Carriers' Bill.
BASTARDY CLAUSES AMENDMENT BILL.

The Earl of RADNOR proposed the second reading of the
Bastardy Clauses Amendment Bill, and contended that the state
of the law at present, as it affected the parents of bastard chil-
dren, was very defective, and required considerable amendment.
He thought the law as it now stood ought to be altered. The
principles of the English law allowed no case in which a person
could be called upon to give evidence in their own case. By
the present bastardy law, however, a woman might be called to
give evidence in her own case. Formerly, in a bastardy case,
the woman was the witness of the parish. Under the present
law a woman might go before a police magistrate, and swear
tcol
that she was pregnant with a bastard child. The magistrate
war
retoriodisssultebsae,iuseunar
toonst,h:hviricohrali a,s, made re-
turnable compelled
a ed
recovery

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDA I_ MORNING, JUNE 10, 1 845.

from her lying-in. Now what powers of extortion did this
give to a woman. On thgse grounds he thought the present
law ought to be altered. The Noble Earl concluded by moving
the second reading of the Bill.
Lord WH ARNCLIFFE opposed the Bill. He thought it
was too soon to judge of the operation of the present law see-
ing that;the Act only passed last year. The system which was in
existence before the passing of the Poor Law Amendment
was fraught with evils. When a woman found herself with child
the parish officers were set at her and at the man who was the
supposed father, and the most improper proceedings took place in
order to induce a marriage between the parties. At that time a
woman bad nothing to do but to go before two justices of the
peace in petty sessions, and swear A. B. was the father of her
bastard child, and the order was made at once as a matter of course.
The remedy subsequently adopted, in 1843, was the seizure of
goods and the stoppage of the man's wages ; bat in the former
case there were frequently no goods to seize, and in the latter
few, if any, masters could be found who would render them-
selves obnoxious by stopping the wages of the operative for a
crime wholly unconnected with themselves or their contract.
Finally, the new law was introduced, by which the putative
father, on sufficit nt evidence before a magistrate, was
compelled to provide for the subsistence of the child; and
as that was but an experiment of a year's existence, he
believed any repeal of it would not only be premature, but
unwise and unsafe.

The Earl of CARNARVON concurred with his Noble
Friend ( Lord Wharneliffe) in stating that such sudden and
rapid changes in the law were calculated to bring the Legis-
lature into disrepute. The state of the law, previous to the
introduction of the existing statute, was certainly unsatisfac-
tory ; while the burden of punishment was imposed to its full
on the weaker vessel, the crime of the stronger, and, too often
guiltier, party was virtually connived at. Last year, however,
these anomalies had been removed ; and, trusting that the
remedy proposed would prove successful, he should oppose any
measure which would interfere with its fair working.
The Earl of RADNOR still considered that the existing
law held out a premium to perjury, and that he had shown
amply sufficient grounds to warrant a change in its provisions.
The amendment was then put and agreed to, and the House
adjourned at Ten o'clock.

ROUSE OF COMMONS, Juue 9.

The SPEAKER, took the Chair shortly before Four o'clock.
Lord EnwiN HILL took the oaths and his seat for the
county of Down in the room of the Earl of Hilsborough, now
Marquis of Downshire.
A raessenger from the East India House brought up certain
eturns. _ _

paper money in Scotland or in Ireland.—( Hear.)
He remembered when the Bill of 1814 was re-enacted in 1826,
after it had been partly repealed in 1822, so far as regarded the
circulation of one-pound notes, a strong objection existed
amongst the people of England and Scotland. He remem-
bered the threat of the Scotch bankers on that occa-
sion. They said that they had an immense amount of
property in the funds, an,i they would dispose of that property,
and get the amount in gold, and put the Bank of England in
difficulty. That threat prevented the Government from ex-
tending the issue of 1/. notes in Scotland. It was said
that there were no failures in the Scotch banks. He
remembered several failures. A short time ago,
in consequence of the failure of a bank near Paisley, there
existed the most intolerable distress, when the Paisley manu-
facturers were obliged to apply for charity.
Mr. HAWES denied that the Scotch circulation was sus-
tained during the thine of the greatest drains by drawing on
the Bank of England.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had a state-
ment in his hand which he would read to the House, and
which would set the point at rest as regarded the pressures of
1833 and 1835. Ihe whole effect of these transactions was to
benefit, to a great extent, the banking interest in Scotland.
Mr. HAWES said that in 1839 the whole of the Scotch
debit in the books of the Bank of England was on account of
foreign credits. The Honourable Member then read a
number of documents relating to the banking trans-
actions between Scotland and the Bank of England,
which we could not follow with exactness, or even with
perspicuity, in consequence of the rapid and indistinct man-
ner in which such difficult quotations were read.
111 r. FOX MAULE had understood the Chancellor of the
Exchequer to say that Scotch securities to the amount of
3,000,000/. were sold and paid for in gold in the year 1839,
and that this gold was carried into Scotland.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was under-
stood to explain that he had said the gold so received might
have been carried into Scotland under the circumstances.

NEWCASTLE AND BERWICK RAILWAY.
Mr. HODGSON HINDE moved the postponement to Wed-
nesday of the third reading of this Bill—Agreed to.
OXFORD LINES OF RAILWAY.
Mr. FL DRUMMOND brought up the reports upon the
Oxford, Worcester, and Wolverhampton Railway, and also the
report upon the Oxford and Rugby Railway.
CORNWALL RAILWAY.
The report on the Cornwall Railway Bill was brought up.

Mr. 'MUNI Z considered that if the Bank of England had
suffered any inconvenience by the alleged operation, it was en-
tirely owing to the defective arrangements of that body itself.
➢lr HUME considered that the bankers of Scotland should
not be interfered with, with respect to their issues, when there
was no occasion for it.
After a few words from Sir W. CLAY,

Mr. DENNISTOUN said he was astonished to hear the
remarks which had just fallen from the Hon. Member for
the Tower Hamlets, for he would just ask what had been the
facts of the case ref.-rred to ? The Scotch banks had at one
time been apprehensive of a run, and they got 50,00)1. in gold
from England, but from that day to this not a single pound had
been received from England.
Mr. COLLETT rose to notice a trifling omission which was
perhaps of no great consequence after all. He meant the
omission of the word silver" in the clause.—( Laughter.)
The clause was then agreed to, as were clauses 10, 11, and 12.
On clause 13 being proposed,
Mr. P. M. STEW ART moved that at the end of the clause
the following words be inserted:—" Provided always, that such
banker shall not be liable in such penalty, unless the aggregate
amount of such monthly circulation of all the bankers in Scot-
land shall exceed the aggregate amount of the average circu-
lation of all the banks in Scotland, to be taken in manner
herein provided." Now he said in conclusion that if the banks
collectively were to work out the contraction and expansion
principle to which the Right Hon. Baronet referred, they must
adopt the amendment. With regard to its being practicable, let
it go into the Bill, and he had no doubt but it would work
satifactorily.
Sir R. PEEL was really afraid of arguing the question any
longer. The lion. Gentleman talked of the penalty being
tremendous. Now, in case of excessive issue, a bank no doubt
did incur a penalty. Supposing a banker were to issue
100,0004 in notes more than he could pay, there was no
penalty provided against his so doing, there was no penalty
except by a joint action. It was not possible, it was true, to
prognosticate whether or not such a case might arise. Sup-
posing the emergency should arise that the issue of Scotland
should fall below 3,500,0001. by effecting the union of banksthe
most effectual precaution had been taken for guarding
against any danger arising from suck a diminution. He must
oppose the amendment .as it contained every absurdity that
could be imagined.

Mr. TURNER having spoken a few words,
Mr. STEWART said, the whole circulation was the same
now in Scotland as was provided for by the proposed Bill.
The measure was only intended to restrain speculation and un-
due circulation. He would say let the Bill be judged of under
all circumstances, and then a competent opinion could be
formed of it. The Bill had been treated throughout too much
as a banker's Bill, and not a measure for the people of Scotland.
It was right that improper restrictions might be guarded against ;
and if his amendment was not received, the Government would
rue it.

Sir R. PEEL said the Hon. Member evidently wished to
give a portion of Scotch bankers an advantage over others,
and he could, by no means, agree to the ameodment.
The amendment having been negatived without a division,
the remaining clauses of the Bill were agreed to.
On the motion being put fir the Chairman reporting
progress,
Mr. HUME rose and said he wished to have a last word on
the Bill before it went out of Committee. His principal ob-
jection to the Bill was, that it limited the number of banks, and
established one of the worst systems of imniopoil, There
ought to be freedom in trade, in money, and cheques, as well as
in corn or anything else, and the Right Hon. Baronet, in his
opinion, was contravening the whole principle he so ably laid
down and explained to the House in 1843.
Sir R. PEEL said the Bill placed no restrictions on the
number of banks. No restrictions whatever were placed upon
banks employing capital in a legitimate way, but the Hon.
Gentleman had formed an erroneous conception of the Bill.
It only rest-icted the number of banks dealing in paper, and by
such means limited the number of banks dealing in gold.
After a few words from Mr. Hume, Mr. P. Stewart, and
other Hon. Members, the House resumed, when

The CHAIRMAN reported progress, and the report was
ordered to be brought up to-morrow.
THE IRISH BANKING BILL.

On the question being put for thy House going into Cor►.
mittee on this Bill,

Mr. ROSS said it would be his duty to detain the House
for a few minutes before going into Committee. A meeting of
merchants and others had, he said, been held in the Hall of
Commerce in Dublin, where resolutions were passed denouncing
the present as being of a mischievous character, and in-
jurious to the best interests of the country. His own objec-
tion to the Bill, and he believed it was an objection very ge-
nerally entertained in Ireland, was to the mode in which the
averages were proposed to be taken. In consequence of most
of the banks in Ireland having provincial branches, every banker
would have to make a deposit of 31, for every 11. they might
have in circulation. He regretted that they proposed to
abolish the 30e. notes, which were found most convenient in
the markets of Ireland. By doing so, they would compel
bankers to keep a greater quantity of silver in their
coffers than heretofore, arid entail much inconve-
nience upon those in the habit of making their
purchases with these notes. He had been instructed to give
his most strenuous opposition to tho measure, and in doing so
he could not but regret that the Irish Members were not in
their places to oppose it. By being in their places they would
be doing their country far greater service than sitting in Con-
ciliation Hall hatching vain empires.—( A laugh.)
Colonel CONOLLY would be glad if some provision were
made for the increase which might occur in the circulation of
Ireland. The circulation of Ireland during the last year in-
creased one million, which was shown by returns which had
been made to the House. This could not be assigned to
any other cause than the general improvement and cultivation
of the country. He was happy to see this in a country in
which it was proverbial that idleness and poverty prevailed to a
great extent. The imports from two of the most important
ports in the north of Ireland had increased to an incredible
extent. The imports from Dublin had also materially in-
creased. Although no one could admire the principle of the
Bill more than he did, yet he thought the restriction very hard
on local banks which had been encouraged by the improvement
in the trade of the country to increase their circulation. He
concluded by expressing his admiration of the principle of the
Bill and wits a hope that the Government would make a pro-
vision for increasing the circulation of the banks in proportion
to the improvements in the commerce and with the demands
of the country.
Sir R. PE ",L wished he could impress upon the represen-
tatives of I. eland the strung conviction which he entertained
that the measure was intimately connected with the growing
prosperity of Ireland, and that no country on the face of the earth
would derive more benefit from a sound system of banking and
a staple system of government.—( Hear, hear.) No country
on the face of the earth had suffered more from a bad system of
banking than Ireland. From his personal experience he was
satisfied that many of the cases of distress which occurred in
the south and west of Ireland arose from the sitnultaneous
failure of almost all the banks in those parts of the country,
causing individual cases of heartrending distress as well as
general injury to the country. By the failure of these banks
the Irish Exchange has been so greatly affected that in 1804
no less than 50 banks had failed. Since tha' year many more
hail been established, but these all failing the whole community
had le en plunged into general and universal distress. Of
these banks four had been established in Dublin, three in Bel-
fist, and one in Bala, but these had all failed he believed
without exception. Of the ease of Lord Ffrench's bank he
could say nothing But there had unquestionably been great
distress about that time, and one of the main causes was the
supposition that inconvertible paper was wealth. It might
kave been supposed that the exclusive principle held by the
chief banks of Dublin would have prevented teat run on the
provincial banks, but such had not proved to be the case. In
several parts joint-stock hanks had been established, and he
believed i hat on the whole they had been managed with pru-
dence and ability, but their chief source of safety had been
their acknowletfged liability of their notes being convertible
into gold, and the consequence had not been as was supposed
the prevention of this course of rendering them convertible
into gold. The conduct of a certain portion of the joint-
stock banks had been to render the system suspicious, and had
exposed the other banks to a run. And what was the course
of thejoint- stock banks in 1837 11 There was a bank at that time
called the Agricultural Bank of Ireland, which had far exceeded
its amount of gold in its issues, and what was the consequence?
Not only had that bank failed but there had been very wide
and intense distress, indeed never had he seen such a depth of
distress as had been occasioned by the failure of banks at that
particular period, to the destruction of all confidence, end the
entire disruption of all ties of property, and an injury to every
other bank in the country. There was at that time another
bank in Ireland, and he believed there still was, called the Pro-
vincial Bank of Ireland, which was, of the highest respecta-
bility, and had conducted its operations with great skill and sa-
tisfactires to the public. The secretary of that bank had been
examined before a Committee of the House whether, in conse-
quence of the failure of that bank, there had been any evil
arising to the other banks, and he had replied that to every
one it had caused great loss. He was further asked whether
there had been at that time sufficient gold in Ireland to meet
the requirements of the public at that time, and he replied
that he had not the slightest doubt that at that particular time
there was unquestionably, for they had been obliged to keep a
much larger suns of specie on hand than they actually required,
from the apprehension of a run, and the sum was increased so
as to greatly exceed the amount of their issues. The necessity
had arisen from no requirement of unusual business, but solely
from the feverish state of excitement, and the excess was only
wanted to meet that feeling. When asked whether he could
tell whether that gold was in the country or whe-
ther it had been brought from England, he re-
plied that certainly there had been a considerable
quantity in the hands of the bankers in Ireland, but that a
very great portion of it had been brought from England, arid
that for the purposes of the run it had all been brought from
England. When asked whether it was brought from Lon-
don, he replied, from London and other places ; a great pa:a
from London, but some also from Liverpool and Bristol. The
whole of it, lie believed, originally came from the Bank of
England, and he thought that not only the Provincial Bank,
but also all the other banks in Ireland, had been compelled
to pursue this course, in consequence of the conduct of the
Agricultural !',ank, who, though they professed to meet all
their issues in gold, had used every expedient to get their notes
into circulation. When asked as to what amount he conceived this
increase had been made, he replied, certainly not less than
2,000,1.001. in gross. And when again, it was inquired whether
this was usually kept, or whether it was to meet the extraor-
dinary amount of issues, he replied that there was no doubt of
the fact that it was simply for the protection of the banks.
Now was it right that such a sum as 2,000,0001., should
have to be kept for meeting an emergency arising from no
real call, but only to save the inconvenience they could not
controul, and to at oid a disadvantage for which they were in
no way responsible. He thought, therefore, that it would be

na small benefit to the country to give a check on this un-
limited issue. It would also he something to give relief from the
state of painful suspense and excessive anxiety which such a
system raust inevitably occasion. The Hon. Mesaber (Col.
Conolly) said that the object of this measure was to reduce the
amount of the circulating medium just at the time when the
increase of trade and commerce required its expansion, but he
( Sir Robert Peel) thought that this restriction on these issues,
and the obligation to pay in gold, would be to enable the banks
to extend their issues, as they would be freed from those
liabilities to which they were now subject. An increas-d con-
fidence would pervade the country, and less expense would be
incurred in the obtaining and keeping gold. He had also been
accused of bringing this measure forward prematurely. but he
thought that this charge was, at least, entirely without founda-
tion, for when he brought forward his motions respecting
the banks in England last year, he had distinctly given
notice that he intended to deal this year with the
banks of Scotland and Ireland, and he thought that
during the interval there had been ample time for considera-
tion of the banks. When he had brought forward that mea-
sure lie might with equal justice have included the banks of
the other two countries. V. xactly twelve weeks before he
had made his speech introducing that measure, he had given
notice to the bankers of England of the nature of his interaled
project, and no difficulty had been experienced either by the
banks or in the country. He had been told, also, that he hail
dealt unfairly with the banks of Scotland and Ireland, as he
had taken the average of one only thirteen weeks, and the
other twelve months. In his opinion Ireland gained the ad-
vantage ; but as there was a "difference, though he himself
thought that the protection would be greatest for Ireland, he
would take the larger sum as the basis of his cab ulations—
( Hear, hear)—and he would give the average of the twelve
months. In addition to this he would give the privilege of
issuing note= within the prescribed distance of sixty-four miles,
which had hitherto formed the boundary line, provided the issue
was based on specie. By that privilege all banks having
more than six partners were excluded from not only circulating
notes, but also from having any houses of agency, or conduct-
ing any transactions in their own name in Dublin, where they
would interfere with the notes circulated by the Bank of Ire-
land. This was a great boon, he conceived, to the people of
Ireland, and he thought it might be safely granted. In Scot-
land the banks kept but little gold. Indeed, he might say,
that the business was done in that country upon gold. He was
free to confess that as yet no loss had been suffered by the
country or the banks, but yet it was unsound in principle that
there should be no requirement of having assets to meet the
claims made upon them. Practically, he might say, there had
been no gold kept in Scotland. In Ireland, he believed, the
banks had conducted their business most creditably, and had
always a large amount of specie to meet their circulation. He
believed that in the Bank of Ireland there was at least
400,0001., and at Belfast there had been banks inferior to
no existing banks in Ireland for the soundness of the
system, and proving the excellence of the principle
of always obliging banks to meet their issues with gold,
and he believed that the establishment of this principle would
have the effect of increasing the issues rather than contracting
them. The banks would not be obliged to keep so great an
amount of gold as they would otherwise require. They would
not have so great a stake in the risk of the country. He be-
lieved that, owing to the branches of the Bank of Ireland, they
were obliged to keep 'BOO,OOOl. at the head office, and the
Provincial Bank of Ireland kept a proportionate amount. In
addition to this, they were obliged to keep a quantity of stock
both at the head-office of the Bank of Ireland and also at the
Provincial Bank. For the relief which this 811 would give
them from the competition, and thus enable them to extend
their issues accordingly, all he asked was, that a provision
should be made to the full amount of the issues, and this was ail
the restriction he required—a restriction equally required
by the safety of the country, and the convenience of the banks
themselves. That was the position which he took, and he
believed it to he a sound one, and he should resist every at-
tempt to change it. With respect to the two periods which
had been named, during which he had assumed the averages,
one commenced twelve weeks before the 27th of April, and
the other embraced twelve months before that time. This
appeared at first sight a little unlavourable to Ireland ; but he
would do away with this, and take the same period with re-
spect to Ireland as he hail taken with respect to Scotland,
and increase the amount of circulation which that
would have made it in the first instance. He
thought that, by this measure, he was conferring a great boon
upon Ireland, and he hoped that it would be so received
in that country. He hoped that the Irish Members in that
House would riot stoop to any minute criticism, but that they
would take the measure as a whole. He had intended to assi-
milate the position of England, Scotland, and Ireland. ane. he
had done so as far as circumstances would allow. He believed
that it would prove a great means for the extension and im-
provement of commerce and agriculture, and would, at the
same time, have the effect of addiag a beneficial security which
they had never hitherto enjoyed, that the banks themselves
would, in the course of another year. allow that the measure
had been productive of all the utility which he had anticipated.
Mr. ROCHE said that the Right Hon. Baronet had en-
deavoured to make out a case by showing the mischievous ten-
dency of the present system, and by carrying them hack to
that period of horror ; but the state of things at the time the
fifty banks had failed had been entirely altered. He
had also pointed them to the period of 1837,
when the Agricultural Bank of Ireland had failed,
but he had omitted to inform the House that the public had
not suffered anything from that failure. The question was not
as to either the extent of the circulation or not, but whether
they were to have one Government bank of issue. As to the
whole question of the circulation, for that he was not compe-
tent; but the question he had to consider was, what right had
the Right Hon. Baronet to interfere with the currency of Ire.
land at all ? The Right Hon. Baronet had allowed that the
banks of Ireland had been stable—that, to u‘e his own words,
they were most respectable, and had conducted their opera-
tions with great prudence and ability, and that only six of them
had failed. What pretence, then. was there for interfering
with them? Could he assert that there had been any excess
of paper issue ? Could he prove that the business had not been
properly managed ? The Honourable Member for Coventry
(Mr. Williams) had stated that the systems of banking
in Scotland and England ought to be assimilated,
but he had at the same time allowed that the increase of
trade and commerce required an increase of the circulating
medium. What were they doing at this time? They had
allowed that it was necessary that for the prosperity of the
country, railroads and all the other national improvements
should be introduced, but how was this to he effected without
an increase at the same time in the circulating medium ?
Why should they take with one hand, what they gave with the
other ? There were two banks in Dublin, the Royal Bank of
Ireland, and the Hibernian Bank, which were located in
Dublin, which all allowed to have conducted their business
in a most creditable manner, and to have paid reasonable
dividends according to the amount of their capital, and yet
which were allowed on all hands to be unable to become
banks ,af issue. He thought that these banks ought to enjoy
the advantage of the enlarged issue, without the
restrictions which the Right Honourable Baronet impost d.
But it was not his intention to offer any impediment to
the Bill going into Committee, as the object which he should
oppose would come before them in the clauses, and when these
were before them he should certainly move amendments on
several of them, as he thought the measure would thereby be
rendered more agreeable to the feelings and interests of the
people of Ireland.
_ _ _ _

Mr. WADDINGTON said that he thought the measure
would require much to render it palatable for those for whom
it was intended. He thought that Ireland ought to be put on
a par with Scotland, which he thought to be of great impor-
tance in the present rising, thriving, and promising condition
of Ireland. When they were applying the principle of these
two Bills to Ireland they ought to keep in mind the peculiar
circumstances of each country.
Sir R. FERGUSON complained that in the limits chosen
by the Right Hon. Baronet opposite, he had cut down exces-
sively the circulation of the Irish banks ; whereas he h.d given
to the Scotch banks all the advantage of their own statements.
The limitation of the circulation would operate materially to
the repression of industry, and to the injury of the general
interests of the country. The Hon. Gentleman then went
into numerous statements of monetary items, upon which he
founded his opposition to the Bill.
Lord CLEMENTS hoped that the House would not sup-
port such partial and injurious legislation as was attempted in
this Bill.

Mr. S. CRAWFORD said that the object of the Bill was
to assimilate Ireland to Er:glanii, is monetary matters. Eng-
land was in a h gh state of prosperity, and did not require the
aid of bank notes try stimulate its industry. Ireland was in a
very different position, and he objected altogether to the pro-
posed restriction. He had no objection to place a wholesome
restriction upon the issue of bank paper ; but he thought this
measure would go to the extent of restricting the circulation
below the wants of the people. He would reserve to a future
occasion what more he had to say upon this subject.
Mr. IVYSE had no objection to a careful restriction of the
issue of bank notes. But he thought that Ireland, with a po-
pulation of 8,000,000, and a circulation of 7,000,000/., should
have, at least, as large a number of banks of issue as Scotland,
which had a population of only two millions and a half.
The House then went into Committee upon the Bill.
On the reading of clause 1,
Sir WM. SOMERVILLE rose to move, pursuant to no-
tice, a series of amendments, of which the following was the
first and principal, and that to which he first applied himself :
" And whereas there have existed in the city of Dublin, for a
series of years now last past, and still exist therein, two Joint
Stock Companies trading as bankers, one known as the Heber-
Man Joint Stock Banking Company, and the other known as
the Royal Bank of Dublin, but which said two Banking Com-
panies being united in covenants or partnership exceeding the
number of six persons, and residing and having their establish-
ments or houses of business within the distance of fifty miles
of Dublin, were not, before 'he passing of the said Act of the
seventh and eighth year of the reign of her Majesty, nor are
they new, entitled to borrow, owe, or take up any sum or
sums of money on their bills or notes payable on
demand, or to make and issue such bills or notes accord-
ingly payable on demand: And whereas said two Joint-
Stock Banking Companies, on the 6th day of May,
one thousand eight hundred and forty-four, were there-
fore not lawfully (or at all) issuing their own bank notes,
and it would be of injury to said Joint-stock Banking Com-
panies if the power of becoming banks of issue was withheld
from them respectively when extended to several banks to
trade hereafter as banks of issue within the City of Dublin and
sixty-four miles thereof ; and it is therefore expedient that
the said two Joint-stock Banking Companies should be autho-
rised by law to become banks of issue in Ireland, as if the had
been banks of issue on the sixth day of May, one thousand
eight hundred and forty-four, anything contained in said re-
cited Act, passed in the seventh and eighth year of the reign
of her present Majesty, to the contrary in anywise notwith-
standing." In support of this paragraph of his resolution he
went into a history of the banks to which it refers, and
quoted largely from the Parliamentary evidence relating
to the operations of the Bank of Ireland.—( Hear, hear. )
He then referred to the establishment of the Belfast Banking
Company, the Northern Banking Company, and other joint-
stock banks in Ireland, with their branches. This state of
things, continued the Hon. Baronet, caused the Bank of Ire-
land to establish branches also, aaid, in 1825, it established
twenty-three branches, but of these, six only were within the
described circle of sixty-four miles, affording accommodation
to a population of 1,300,000, the richest and most flourishing
portion of the people of Ireland, while, outside the circle, there
were ne less than 131 branches. A great. deal had been said alout
the Scotch system, but the case which he detailed to the House
in reference to the Back of Ireland, would, he considered,
make it abundantly apparent that there was no analogy what-
ever between the system in the two coureries. The Scotch
bankers never had a monopoly to contend with, as they had in
Ireland, and, therefore, he did not see how Hon. 'Members
could refer to them in proof of the proposals of joint-
stock banking in that country. He should like to
know what effect it would have if the lion. Baronet
would introduce an Act to confer a monopoly on any bank
within sixty-four miles of London ? Woulti he not have an
opposition from the bankers and merchants of London that
would quickly defeat such an attempt? The shares of the
banks to which his clause referred, and which had buffered so
much by this monopoly, had fallen 15 per cent. And he curt-
sidered that these two banks had a stronger claim than any
other banks of Ireland to the benefit of ally advantages w hich
were intended to be conferred upon the banking system of
Ireland. He would rather throw himself, however, spun the
Hight Hon. Baronet than upon the Scotch Members of the
House, whose assistance he expected, with the hope of pro-
curing that modification of the clause which was the object of
his amendment. The Hen. Baronet concluded by moving the
following amendment:_" That in clause 1, and line 5, after
the word' thereof,' shall be inserted,
and also so much of the
said recited Act of 7th and 6th of her present Majesty as pro. i