The Sun.
London, England, 1820-07-11 00:00:00

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but Only trlCrenaTl.S 2,......;ingan
had contributed
. ' ' '''• :' - ', "ous artists, who had 1.
long resided in this cuuntrY, and,.
s. ....
to enrich'
clans if• by, theirindustry and' kilt Ph taldr i rt4l
e was of a mord peculiar nsastunrne, airt1:111
reference to the painful 'di-cu i :touse Was involved ; oil whichi,_, subject he bad
ellcNtvhich the
kept hitherto a-profOand_i 'hence, :to the Judicial-duties whiol.be called '
e; from a'regard
he might
course; must be 114-
Upon to perform. - 4e)- °I. -
,110..r.iieeti, -and
darn
to allude. to the‘case oil ..---4.
ti.iie clause went to prevent .
its beino-, supposed
!that any party could have an undue inquenCe over'
legal. rdceedings: .The
e ,witudsses .in the
,cAlaiise went td exempt from the operation of the
""-b6, Aat all witnesses-for or. against the'
all,i,allni.ostf
Pains and Penalties that had been brought n
w•le %leen in another -House of parliament.
In
to have the
4441 a -case, "ministers ought
Nwer to send the xvitnesses‘
°veil their - own witnesses; ill.that event, they
,
outno°ftthe Country,
of .dictating
-3.,:lightibe thought to have the.
i e 136kwlelrfear, would be
tne evidence they might give. - witnesses, as
tortoved from the Aninds of the 1
,etherwise an undue bias might. opet4e.*°n their
nltilds. By the instructions, he inten,dheed;ntoeainntovthe '6t744.1ti 'be :given -to the -CoininiW
. keaway all grounds of calumny ef:rom the legal
ilec)teedi"s• The lion. Gentleman
i,b-,/ '.l°vin; -his first clause, thata'siiinmary
char es
6311161-itiviliitil-
-mgshould. be given Jo, the Alien of the , g._
arlailst hum, by the Lords of t're aud that he ruight:haVe -the power of s
Privy Council,
II
4n(l4lxain;nitig witnesses-on oat: summoning
11 le tplestion having been -put,,
he
wou:ti
.. to dscAsnEß,AG..ii rosela_i_ said,
-lion.
not lorelund to, follow the --!i.
matter
-t::elaart 'through all the incidental o
.daeintttlaiL-rned
i. • observa-
apply ""
v't;„llicil he had introduced) but
i'''S at
once...to the clauses
d to be added
t:aerr d Gentleman had . which the
.proposed
It v. . eery
Iron.,as a and
the ' Bill now before the House.
"sY • rourse 'for !gun, and T'
`1.1_;41-lii•-10 that all the .argem.
efts were on their
....'earited Gcntlerneu_ to
Id not now*
Side ' 'bilt notwithstanding he W°ll
the merits,
enter at length into the argtimett-°r
previous
as' s",`•=h had already been urged in the
stag"'` of"the rriasurro, and it theretrirecou„it noti,i-
goal, cebnsidered "as any derogation for. anya till_
IL'
ti..
t° avoid inflicting upon the House e
19'54 ' f them. The -two first
r s‘, ard
jre /tot new; they ha 4, been broughtclaUseS proposedor.
ecasions,
,e> or more than once, on
xria, 'the flouse 'hail then expretr
enable
til",, theni. The first was a clause
emderth°eir sense
cii;, `rlfinneil to enter into a regular
short to have
k „._--r r, t4exatnine witnesses, andjudicialt° in-
in
that if there
li,:''"Plete trial. Now 'he mist feelB;ll at al!, it
fir 411,Y grounds for an -
alliiitfLelQe4tlY be actednco d n b co -
k ~r circurnstalaces AO lienfrup in4o`otimeationni,
thatd
if
17.‘, ted to the party-,
I:st Prepared to grant the
ed
arimeasutirlee House
ee
wereonlY
to do,
Bette4.Sr it h 3,4 been accustom
ifis objection was
it would be
r not to hay.) it at all.
into
general
Nel.„
,r a
,J eat to turning thl Vlitical tribunal- for the
country. The
sell°4ln to the Constitution of the ,
pParbt7-,:-A tribunal un-
.,..acr°;lti g" the IlOnontable and Learnet!.Ge.ntioe-_
ti, 3 claims to Oxempt front the o.per_atiti,oliaindf
-"e 841 all those foreigners who were . F.,
"tort o Isl 4, WIIS a9SIIMing
i.ding bete before the War were legitimate
(I:,
that no fOrlinegn:rs
07:
sects of jf..2l:)asy bat'
I.lot heretOlON. dam they
(5 ... become so
coaaectioa ; might certairilfro,ntlhotitile,hinz..
with otl;:rrs tol'i their countrythe
intipsht but
recent! have Odle
I°l. jectiQns to the two first clauses, those ob
1 jse,
over. If hne_ wh.
eal.
,t,"'s were infinitely stronger to the third.
~r he could „ ,
't,Ltier
than or a
tone°tnhe:i"a
Government of ,
greater libele
r:t.', than to
have • insinuated that the powers
,f ,
~,,. it
Lots bitll. were likely to be used Caoun -
for the pur-
1103e ..
OE obstructing public"
atpnrable and. Learned Gentleman must
- T.hekniroow:
-.,..`1at no Government would-
s;r r• for
obstructina the. exercise
purposes of justice,.ma,
• '4. from that belle, ill the minds- of 11.stteh
h) his
ten-
IlltY'S-Aiinisters, he (Lord Castle'reag
sta to th ti
oi\. --e Tz'on. and Learned-0
' i --''Y'S legal advisers, every'ficilitY iv ttl, .
procu
entlemhean, her
r.
y tvitnesses frorn abroad) ,
1411v4hr f r,
Any conduct of
41 - 0 ....-overnment to. grant.
which it Was in the
_, e $OO.
not only
Pointed at by the Clause-A*llld
but
7eserve the condemnation of the eduntrn_ _
would ui,,.„.t. .
~-
•• that House. A.l
tii, yr• • impeacament from .
‘:- Ilan, nd'. Learned• Gent
,',/`'S zi.j,,,; 1
' he would
• daysi
ral• -4
within these fo,v .
~
Gentleman- had cast his
in, the
foundcorl.l:_c, aniPle grounds of reprehension
r? t of- sorne indivicliials who (4:ino foreigners who had landed at D )over, un-
hadassaulted 1,
14„.ta. Ming they were Coming
- there
e)12.;11 ~,Y. now unfOrtunately pending.
If-
ace
. ' as witnesses in the
tite-141'0. an3' individuals-- who could so; disgrace
c'llll -;;ve,s hY-conduct so contrary to every
therePi
Il'aS ~,"Pitality and justice, he thought Of pion—an hut must reprobate.it,: and he trusted
ti e —use of ennmiens
,I)4Tl'to tii,
.vg_lver iatrused
Idea that Government would use_ any
would. not give any sann
pit vises of o
zrocting just, to them for the
"ce • and if this clause was adopted,.
~cll3 . he tt,
.„L'
necessary infei'ence
"iiicii Wouistle.'i:d4ra.livvans. the
oli. Sc
he ute Lord thet--of -the
Nrok, • ARLErr thought .the argument--of
~,,ad, for it most
simply- to this, that the powers
• ested
roost extraordinaryuihneenhad ever
It".tevvr hich the :Ministers were now to be
divested
in-
-1.11,,e, 80 odious and tyrannical, that it was..
" to them •
~ .
tli.,_ , to trthigtne they Would
his exercise
ever
Hon•
Co. The clause,. as-vproposed by - .nt-
e-avned Friend
of prev..
ill ,
was for the purpose and
ti, calmgmny. 116 (Mr. Scarlett) did not think
b,Oble Lord would misuse the powers
4'til, but
Lie- might be 'suspected- of misusing
ofthite,
4t 9;
he did not think,. therefore, that• the publican.
thetarge would be (mite so well satisfied;_
.;
had
41 circumstance to which the. .NOble Lbrd h
, tlc
~.., .
t,,
s• _
.....s_ to
hi 4 eu proper: terms ei reprenen. tot!,
.`• —A,t_.
Se 4 Nnd,. a complete illustration of his
.l-"I'
)il rlett's)
tv. , argument as to the
NLI,-," ;111:3ject.. ..A.s. to...the other clauses, the
itlf,""le Lord said the House had ...before heard
PohliC sentiment
04 krgutnents upon. them ; but there was this
ilirer''nee,- that the Bill Was now about to ex-
Itil' and the Noble Lord had stated no reasons
Ittevet for itg renewal. Was there, he would

yo Aeration:or:circumstances-in two 3-bars?
Were we still exposed to .the danger of revolu-
tion from foreigners ? During the war he had
imdere.ood the Act was paSsed to prevent the
machinations- of foreigners attacking their iittsti
ttitions ; • but now did sfielt clingers exist ? All
Goverrithents were now legitimate, all' dangers,
'therefore, from • 'abroad had ceased, and he
thought that each time the Act 'was proposed •.
to. be renewed it was necessary to have a state-
mentof the
.causes . that rendered it necessary;
.but the Noble Lord's argument was, make
it as odious "tyrannical as you can, as it
is only for two years ; and in this be agreed •
with the Noble Lord, though not for exactly
the same 'reason. What he (Mr.' SCailett) was
afraid of was this, that; after repeated discus-
sions in :that tiodse;when the public were tired
of hearing arguments urged withont 'producing
any -effect,' that the NOble Lord would come
down and propoSe to•make the -measure perma-
nent. And,' indeed, 'such Was hiS opinion of the •
Noble 'Lord's talents and elOqUenee, that he 'had
little 'doubt if 'he were now 'to propose it, he
would carry it ;• so that he 'esteerried the present .
Measure a proof-of the Noble Lord'sinederation.
'He would- not trespass Orr 'the tithe of 'the House,
by• entering on the generalquestion,btit-this'intich
he would state, that, in his opinion, no man, 'of
whatever rant or professidn lie `might be, at, all
consulted the 'good of his 'country by looking ,
back to the ages of the Tudors, in Order to Un-
derstand the British Constitution. .He"-was con-
tent to look. no farther back than that period
when the-Constitution was settled on its present
basis, he meant from the Revolution. downwards,
and he could not applaud anyone who should
revert. to the age of the 7th or Bth Henry ;, and
he .was satisfied that there was no authority, at
least lie hadnever read any, to shew.that the Crown
ever possessed, in time of peace, the prerogative
of disposing of the persons of foreigners the same
asin'time of war.
Mr. WELLESLEY POLE was astonished to hear
the Hon. and I..arned Gentleman (Mr. Scarlett)
say, that the 'abominable conduct of the rabble
who had attacked the foreigners who had landed
at Dover was an exemplification of the state of
public feeling ; for his part he must say, that he
trusted the rabble always would be against the
Administration, 'for in critical times it was much
like a pro-of that. Ministers were in the right. Vet
that 'senseless act Of the mob was considered by
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman as his main
,argurrient. He considered that if the House
agreed to the proposition of the Learned Gentle-
man (Sir James Mackintosh) that they thereby
held out the Administration as being biaskql upon
a most unfortunate, most critical., and most deli-
cate inquiry, and therefore not fit to be trusted
with the accustomed powers. He sat with great
patience---(a latigh)---and heard the Most ex-
traordinary languacr'e, sufficient to rouse. a man
of the greatest apathy, alluding .(he said) to what
had passed a few nights ago, when he ]heard his
friends on that bench stigmatised as
weak, Wretched, disjointed, and ineapable of con-
ducting the diTairs Of the country.---Here Mr.
Scarlett gave sonic signal of diSsent.]--:—Did the
Honourable and Learned Gentleman mean to
say, he had not charged them with being weak ?
Mr. Sclar,irr.---" I did not mean to disaVow
that. I certainly did say, on a former night, that
the Administration was weak, vacillating, and
disjointed. I hope that even in the warmth of
debate I am incapable of reflecting unhandsomely
on any individual, but I certainly. must claim the
right of expressing in the strongest terms my
sense of the conduct of the Administration of the
Country."
The SPEAKER trusted that Gentlemewwould
be. convinced of the inconveniency of referring to
particular expressions.
PoEi said, he was always ready to bow
to the suggestions of the Chair, but he hoped he
was in order to say that' it was just as competent
for him to defend the Administration wiegi
strength and boldness, as it was for the Hon. and
Learned' Gentleman to attack in that way. lie
would not refer to former nights, for now the
Hon. and I.46arned Gentleman had been pretty
bold in' his charges; they were still vacillating,
weak, and diSjointed.;, but he had not heard that
they wanted either the confidence: of the House
or the; Public. He would put a case hypotheti-
cally :---Supposeone of the
.great leaders had de-
clared that the question was nothing less than
whether the Adininistration should be in or out,
and' suppose on that question they were heater
three 'to one, he had hoped that something might
arise to 'enable him to' touch .those Gentlemen, to
shewlhe:. public that'-with all. their talents and
abilities they had always foiled their'', and he
trusted in God they 'always .woul.illt—(A laugh.)
He begged pardon for .the digression he' had
made, and was extremely sorry that he had agi-
tated- the Learned Gentleman at all (A laugh),
whoSe explanation he was very glad to have got.
Mr. SCARLETT begged to say that he . had not
introduced the cirCumstance of the violence com-
mitted at Dover, and that lie was as incapable of
mistaking the cry or the rabble for public opi-
nion, as the votes of the House of Commons for
dkta of infallibility.

_ .
Mr. W. pni. explained.
Amick6titY said, if the Gentlemen who
sat on that side the
.1-louie were desirous that the
world. should form an opinion of the abilities,
judgment, and temper of the present Adminis-
tration from the speech of the liOn. Gentleman.
(Mr-. W. Pole), they could hardly desire to place
it on a better footing. The proposition of his
Hon. and Learned- Friend (Sir J. Mackintosh)
deserved a better reception than it had met with
from the House and the Noble Lord. He thought
there was no person in that House or in the coun-
try who possessed true English feeling; but would
concur in the censure passed on the transaction
whichtook place at Dover, and would' hope that
all traces of that business could be obliterated.
fie thought it a pity that some better. accommo-
dation should not be provided for those-foreign-
ers, than suffering them to roam about the streets
.of London at midnight, ignorant where to direct
their steps.

Mr. MARTIN Thought it Wag wrong to, wish to
chancre the soleinn pledge Which the Noble Lord
(Castlereagh) had given, and which did him so
much honour, (that promise that he would afford
every facility for the produ'cing her Igajesty's
witnesses), for the inoperative dause now pro-
posed.

Sir J. MACKINTOSII congratulated the non.
pentleman (Mr. W. Pole) on the generous
matiOn, and at the sanie time that undisturbed
serenity of mind and strict regard to the rules of
Parliamentary order with which he had animad-
verted on the observation of liis Honourable and
Learned Friend (Mr. Scarlet°.;lle asked whe-
ther an Administration which adopted accusation
at one moment, and disclaimed it at the next---
who threatened an individual with prosecution
one day, and the next day laid the majestysof
Parliament at her feet, by
.iinploring that indivi-
dual *to forego her just rights, whether that w,as
not a vacillating Administration ? The Noble
Lord had not given any reply to that part of his
argument Which regarded foreign witnesses,
where he had acknowledged that he did not ap-
prehend the exercise of the power to banish them
from this country ; but the trite point to attend
to was the necessity, of removing from the
_minds
of those witnesses that that power would be
exerted, and be, would. appeal to the. House if
that argument was prima facie so absurd as to

_ .
justify its being pas;ed. over in contemptuous si-
lence. It was either contempt or incapacity to
answer, for in fact no answer had been given.
Ile could not see what the proceedings. at Dover-
had to do with the present question ; for those
outrages the law was sufficient as it stood, and
neded not the aid of that House to put the ma-
chinery in motion.; but had it not been so, it was
strange that call should be made. by those who
in the fast Session refused all inquiry into charges
of the most important nature, on the ground that
they were cognizable in the ordinary Courts of
Justice. Looking through our history, it:would
always be found that' every prerogative of the
Crown was guarded, and controuled by law, and
now, that it Was proposed to invest. the Crown
with'a new prerogative, he called upon them, in
conformity with the wisdom of our Constitution,
.for a security against it.. The only way for Mi-
nisters to spew that they have no intention of
abusing the power which they required, was. to
submit to that curb which would render it impos-
sible for theui to abuse-it. . .
Some conversation now ensued between Sir J.
MAckiNTOsn and Mr. CANNING ; the latter Gen-
tleman insisting that the former had been out of
order in extending his observations, as he was
only entitled to explain, and not to reply at
length.
The SriAKtn said, that he had been somewhat

to blanie in not reminding the lion. and Learned
Gentleman that his observations had extended
beyond the limits of an explanation, to which in
strictness be was limited.

It was then uuderstOod that the three clauses
of Sir J. Mackintosh should be disposed of in the
first instance.

Mr. CANNING said, that it appeared to him that
all the arguments had been exhausted long ago,
and that as much discussion on this measure had
taken place as was necessary on the renewal of an
existing statute. It being considered as settled in
the secon d reading, that the Executive Government
were to have .the powers granted by that Bill, the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman interposes a clause
to prevent abuse, which if those to whom it was
confided were capable of so abusing, they ought
to be' driven With scorn and detestation from
their offices, as unfit to perform the lowest func-
tions of them. 'The lion. and Learned Gentle-

man Macintosh) who moved. the proposi-
tiOn; Professed to have no doubt or suspicion of the
Government, but the' 'Other Hon. and Learned
Gentleman (Mr. Scarled) did find on the cha-
racter of the Government the necessity of the
enactment. He would ask that Honourable and
Learned: Gentleman if he thought the House
could pass it without suggesting a suspicion on
the_ Ministers ? It was right and proper that all
the ordinary . abuses of power( ought to be
carefully guarded against, but there. were
some abuses so enormous, that the Legislator
of old,: who, would not enact a law' against
parricide, had not more reason than
.the House
have to refuse this enactment. But, suppose
the clause adopted, what defence would the Mi-
nister's have against such a mt§conStruction as this,
which.would certainly take place? It would be
said," The Ministers are so prone to the abuse of
power, that 'without that Oause had passed they
would undoubtedly have sent all the Queen's
witnesses.out of the country."--,(Hear, hear !)---
He preferred,, therefore, incurring the suspicion
no*, only Putting in his claim to the lion. and
Learned Gentleman's testimony next year, when

the caution, would be found to have been untie.

cessary. He had hoped that when the time ar-
rived that the question w hick had been so ge-
nerally the topic should have come to some-
thing like a judicial form, that when no longer
the: direct subject of debate, that it would
have been .abstained from, and not have
been fomented by anticipating,- by snatches
and pieces of debate, keeping alive by such
means those feelings which were peculiarly dis-
qualifying to the House for the task which
awaited it. He therefore would not advert to
the subject further than to observe, that in adopt-
ing the Resolution to her Majesty, in catching
at the last hope which it held out, he took his
share of the blame of vacillation. That Resolu-
tion did, he thought, embody the sense of the
House, and in words.too which, though. perhaps
not critically expressed, yet when the sentiments
were what he could not but approve of, they
would have been blameable not to have taken
that chance for attaining the object which, for
so many months, had been the anxious wish of
the Administration, and the adoption of that
Resolution was,a striking proof of their since-
rity.---(Ilear!)---If they had sinned at all, it
was by excess of endeavour to avoid the inquiry,
and,ex.cess had been tenfold
theif wouldresiilt to
had thatbeeti more fortunate ! So far
from it being a reproach to the Administration

that they were driven to that Resolution, it
would be a consolation to him which he would
not forego fqr, any earthly advantage, that
,that
last hope had been tried.---(Hear, hear !),
The SPEAKER then put the question on the two
first clauses,'m hich were negatived without a di-
vision.

On the third clause being about to be put, .
Sir i. 111AcKINTosif rose and ,stated, that hiS ob.
iection was-not to the words of the Resolutioni'birt
he objected to it ou constitutional grounds. if -the
House offered an address to a subject, however high
in rank, still that. personage had no responsible ad-
visers; and it followed. therefore, that the House
of Commons might be treated with the greatest in-'
dignity by. an individual. If they addressed the
Crow'n, the King in usthave advisers and, as againSt
them :the House had a -remedy. There was not
another instance,. lie believed, of the House
Commons .presenting an Address of advice: It
was, not, therefore, to the words Of the Resolu-
tion that he objected ;- he disdained minute Cri-
ticism, but it was to the principle • that his ob-
jection went. The Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man_ proceeded to answer other objections which
had been urged, which he did with his accus-
tomed ability. • •

Mr. CANNING thought that, sanguine -as --the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Scarlett) was
of*the instability of the Administration," and the
short duration ,of it, he must •allow they had
some reason to believe the clause proposed ,by the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Sir James Mack-
intosh) had something personal in it. RecUrring
to the subject of the-Resolution presented to her
Majesty, he said it was framed in the same spirit
which had all along actuated the-Ministers, and
they were glad to seize one more chance afforded
by the concurrence of those respectable persons
who agreed in the same opinion.
Mr. SCAItLETT assured the Right-Hon. Gentle-
man he was not sanguine about the- dissolution of
the-Ministry, no man could be less So, for he
thought they never would dissolve -till-the Go-
vernment was dissolved by them.---(H-ear!)---lie
had- avoided giving any -opinion- on the merits of
the question which- had been introduced-in that
debate, and -would only says that as far as his
poor abilities went he would see that no injustice
was done. He certainly had a strong feeling of
compassion, and above all,a-feeling that the" safe-
of the country ,should not be endangered.

Mr. DExmiN said, he had not been in the
House at the commencement of the debate, but
he thought it a great argument against the Mien
Bill that such a case should be quoted ; but he
had principally risen to protest against the lan-
guage of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Can-
ning,) who had spoke as if the- failure of
now
Resolution had led to the proceedings
adopted. These proceedings were, he believed,
adopted, because that House had no taste to
enter into discussion with the Crown, in a case
where in their consciences they believed
,the
Crown was in the wrong. He. thought it a gross
dereliction of duty in the House to pause as they
did. lie would not inquire what would- have
been the result if a Committee had been ap-
pointed to inquire into the Green Bag charges—
those dpcuments without authority---but he was
satisfied no. twenty-one Gentlemen would have
volunteered for the work.---(Hear!)
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL deprecated the 'as-
sinning that the evidence in the green bag was of
no authority ; and as her Majesty was presumed
to be innocent till trial had, so the charges should.
not be stigmatized .as - false till facts would jus-
tify it.
_ _

Mr. 7.. G RANT supported the clause.

Sir J. IVlAclimasit explained. -
After which the question was loudly called for,
and the gallery was about to .be cleared for a
division, but the clause was ultimately negatived
without a division.
The House then resolved itself into a. corn-
mittee, the Bill went through that
,stage, and the
Report was ordered to -be received to-morrow.
After a few words from Sir J. NEWPOII3S the
third reading of the Bill was postponed.