The Sun.
London, England, 1842-02-15 00:00:00

BONDED CORN.

Sir D. ROCHE begged to ask the Right Hon. Gentle-
men, for the satisfaction of the large holders of bonded
corn und cattle—(Great laughter)—when it was intended
to apply the new ditties, should his. measure ever pass
the House —(Laughter)—to provisions now in bond.
Sir R. PEEL understood the question to be• —sup-
posing the measure should pass—in what time was it
proposed to apply the new duties to corn bonded in this
country ?—(Hear, hear, from Sir D. Roche.) He could
not see why the new duties should not come immediately
into operation on the passinc, of the Act. As to cattle,
he was not aware of thero being any—(l4tighter)—but
perhaps the Hon. Bart. was referring to a former statement
of his (Sir R. Peel's): "What he meant was, in reference
to other articles of provision besides corn ; it was his
opinion, and that of his colleagues, that the prohibition
ought not to exist.—(Hear.)
PRODUCTION OF SUGAR IN THE WEST
INDIES. •
Mr. G. BERKELEY begged to call the attention of

the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies, to the
state of the West Indies, as regarded the production of
sugar. He understood that the cost of making a hogs- •
head of sugar was greater than its value in th marke
when 'made.. We understood the Honourable Mem-
ber to attribute the excessive cost of producalon
to the deficiency of labour ; and to inquire whether it
was intended to introduce any measure for the general
importation throughout the Colonies.
Lord STANLEY said that the House would see that
the last question was one of considerable importance, to
which it would be impossible to give a direct answer of
yes or no without entering fully into details.
In the first place, ho did not suppose that the Hon. Gen-
tleman's question was intended to apply to the West
India colonies generally,- but to the colonies of Deme-
rara, British Guiana, and Berbice. He was aware, al-
though he was not aware of the fact as related to the
West India India colonies generally, that a committee
of planters—highly intelligent men, he was bound to say—
had met together some time ago, and after examination
and evidence they came to a resolution confirming the
fact, which the Hon. Gentleman had affirmed, that in
past years the expense of refining sugar in the West
Indies was greater than its value. Now it was manifest
that under such a state of things, cultivation could not
go on, and that some step or other should be taken with
the view of preventing a competition among the pro-
ducers of sugar, which appeared to him to be abso-
lutely ruinous as well as entirely unprofitable,
to the planters. He doubted, however, whether the
planters were taking in all respects. the best mode of
ffecting their own objects. With respect to the second
question, the Hcn. Gentleman had asked wheiher he was
aware that in certain cases there was an opportunity fur
dishonest agents to defraud their masters in that
country by giving false returns of the amount
of sugar raised on the estates. Now, there was
no question but that absentee proprietors in
the West India colonies, as elsewhere, entered
into competition with resident proprietors under very
great disadvantages in all matters which might require
their presence and superintendence. Undoubtedly,
while it was required that returns should be made from
a distant country, it was, and must be, in the power of
dishonest agents to falsify those returns, and to defraud
their absent employers. If he might be allowed to give
his opinion very respectfully upon that question, it would
be that in the present critical condition of the West India
estates, a condition which he did not deny, and which was
deeply to be lamented ; but, with increased facilities which
also existed between this country and the West Indies,
it appeared to him most desirable that the superintend-
ence and attention of proprietors iu the West Indies
should be extended to their property there with
a view to effect, what he knew and believed
might be effected, a great saving in the management of
their estates, and in various charges which it is very
difficult for him, or for any one in that House, to
understand or enumerate ; mid also that they should
endeavour by their local influence to facilitate
that great trade, which he believed was inevitable and
desirable, by-a transfer of trade from the hands or
agents to those of resident tenants. That trade he believed
to be now in progress, and he believed it to be most de-
sirable for proprietors themselves, and for the public ge-
nerally.—(Hear.) Ho would venture to say this with
respect to the expense of cultivation, that there was
no single instance 'in which this natural consequence
had not followed as effect and cause—namely, that
where they gave to the negro labourer an inte-
rest in the amount of work to be performed,
and in the amount of produce raised, there they
would obtain constant and industrious labourers ; but
.where they did not,give that interest there they would
not obtain them, and the amount of competition, the
consequence .of the wages which the planters
are willing to give, and the ruinous competition between
them for a certain time, and certain portions of
work neglectfully and unskilfully performed, would
necessarily lead to those ruinous expenses to which
the West India colonists were now subjected.
With regard to emigration from Africa, he believed it
was most successful, indeed most beneficial to all persons,
except to those from European countries ; and her Ma-
jesty's Government had received the most saiisfactory
accounts on the subject.—(Hear, hear.) But the Right
Hon. Gentleman must be aware that great difficulties
exist in the way of emigration from Africa, or from any
quarter where the power of her Majesty's Government
with regard to emigration is so affected as in the case of
Africa. He would not say it may be advisable with
respect to some of those settlements on the coast of
Africa, except Sierra Leone. Great evils may result
with regard to the slave-trade, and to the labour of the
free population. He saw, however, great difficulty
in sanctioning emigration from those places. Those
settlements became places of refuge for fugitive slaves ;
and it would create the jealousy of all ; and it would give
rise to opinions that their emigration was not voluntary
but forced ; and, at all events, lead people to imagine
that it would encourage the sale of slaves. He believed
he gave the best answer in his power to the question
of the Hon. Gentleman .on the . point, feeling it
to be his duty to state distinctly his views and those of
her.. Majesty's Government on a subject so intimately
connected with the office he had the honour to fill.
COLONIAL DUTIDS.

Mr. LABOUCHERE wished to put a question to the
Right Hon. Gentleman the Vice-President of the Board
of Trade, respecting the regulating duties of the Colo-
nies, which he was bringing before the consideration of
the House. It was relative to the importation
of corn from America into Canada. The
House was aware that at present the importa-
tion of corn and flour from America into Canada was
duty free, and the question he wished Le ask, was whe-
ther he was to understand the effect of the schedule of
duties laid on the table of the House, to be to put
a duty. of 3s. a quarter on American flour imported from
America into Canada.

Mr. GLADSTONE said that the resolution which
had been announced to the House was unquestionably
one which would raise the,question of placing a duty of
3s. on corn imported from America. The question
would be raised, and he would then state the intention
of the Government.

IMPORTATION OF FLOUR (IRELAND).
Mr. LABOUCHERE wished to ask the Right Hon.
Baronet (Sir.R. Peel) whether it was the intention of
Government to allow the importation of flour into Ireland,
which was now prohibited under the new Corn-law.
Sir R. PEEL was aware that Irish Members took
great interest in this subject, and remembered the op-
position they gave last Session to the proposition in-
volved in the present question • but he was bound to
say, that in case of a change of the Corn and Provision-
laws, he could adopt no special legislation ; for though
it was a provision exporting country, no exception could
be made in her favour.—(Hear.):

Mr. ROEBUCK gave notice to the effect that when
the question of the importation of provisions from the
Colonies came before the House, he would take the sense
of the House on the question, whether or not it was
competent for the House to tax the Colonies.--(Hear.)
Sir E. PEEL moved that the Order of the Day be
now read, but
Mr. ROEBUCK said he begged first to put a question
to the Speaker respecting the rules of proceeding in the
House. n It had been given out that the Speaker had said
that no Member of the House had the power to move
a resolution in the House, as distinguished from a Com-
mittee, to the effect that no duty ought to be levied On
corn. Now he (Mr. Roebuck), begged to ask the Right
Hon. Gentleman, whether he as Speaker, deemed it im-
competent for him (Mr. Roebuck), or any other Member
of the House, to move a resolution in the House, as'dis-
tinguished from a Committee, to the effect that this
House is .not prepared to 'adopt any plan which
purposes to impose any duty on corn imported from
foreign countries ? Before a motion condemning a.
sliding-scale was proposed by the Noble Lord, he (Mr.
11.) wanted to know whether he was empowered to pro-
pose a resolution proposing any duty whatever ?
The SPEAKER said that all questions directly relat-
ing to trade were required by the Standing Orders to be
moved in a Committee of the whole House ; but it was
possible by wording the resolution in a general, way to
take the sense of the House on the question, whether
or not a duty should be imposed on corn. Certainly
this would not be the regular way ; the regular way
would be in a. Committee of the whole House.

Lord ELIOT, in reply to a question, which was
almost inaudible proposed by Mr. Powell, on
the subject of Grand Juries in Ireland, said that
he (Lord Eliot) could not give a distinct answer
until he had received the report of the Commissioners
appointed to inquire into the subject ; and with respect
lo local governments, any gentleman hereafter
placed in such a situation, must be perfectly liable to any
alterations that might be made.
THE CORN-LAW S. --A DJOURNED DEBATE.
Sir R PEEL now moved that the House resolve itself
into a Committee of the whole House, and resume the
debate on the duties affecting the import of foreign corn.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, Sir, I believe I_ should
in no way diminish the difficulties of the task I have
undertaken, or obtain greater power for my arguments,
if I were to commence my address to the House by pre-
face or introduction. Therefore, Sir, I shall at once call
the attention of the House to the position in which they
now stand. The question of the Corn-laws has been
submitted to us by the first Minister of the Crown,
In proposing the scale he has laid before us, he has not
only acted upon the authority of the Government over
which he presides ; but he has also informed us that
having collected the opinions of those most interested
in agriculture, he found there were but very few
of that class, who were not in favour of some
modification of the existing Corn-laws. We, there-
fore, now stand in the situation of considering
the Corn-laws with a view to alteration by almost gene-
ral consent.—(Hear, hear.) The cry is no longer that
of no surrender.—(Cheers.) The question is as to the
terms of the continuation.—(Hear, hear.) Sir, if that
he the case ; if we are prepared to condemn the present
Corn-laws as unfit to be longer continued on the '
Statute Book as inapt for the purpose for which
they have been enacted, of regulating the tlade
in corn ; I
it say then, .without fear of contra-
diction, that is of the utmost importance that you
should make--that change upon sound principles ; that
you should endeavour to make it give as much as pos-
sible of general satisfaction ; especially to that dis-
tressed portion of the community, of whose condition
we have heard such lamentable accounts from both sides
of the House ; and lastly, that it should be such a law
that it would not be liable to cause an immediate fresh
agitation of the question, but that all who arc to live
under that law, all who have transactions. in that most
important of all articles, the article of food, which com-
prehends, in its various classes, the whole community,
that they should be aware of the state of him under
which they are to live ; and be prepared to state that
for a time at least, it will not be disturbed—(Hear)
Because, although it may be wise to concede, yet, when
we concede, we ought to look for the fruits of concilia-
tion. It may be wise to disturb a law that now exists;
but when we make that disturbance, we ought to do it
for the purpose of settling it afresh, upon better
foundations. To concede and not conciliate, to disturb.
the present state of things and-yet to settle nothing--

I (Hear, hear, hear)—would be, I conceive, of
rerurfoineel,
cases that could be conceived by
.; and a Parliament, the most imprudent for Gover,n
,ict'.
ithtieparr.o,p)osess ainr,d flor Pthaiinikiamietntnetcoeusdsoatr);..,—h(oCnriceis,eorf `ll.:llnce,r,:
be obliged to trespass on the indulgence of the Hogs:
.':
1 giving you my reasons for opposing, in this early.str,.g;,,
1 the measure of the Government, to state as D adt,,
as I can the general principles which shouldf sk.
our legislation upon this subject. I do so, becat.fe;
though in one point I should agree with the. pritic4,,,,
laid down by the first Minister of the Crewel, Tr;nt
are other points on which I entirely ,dofeh re-
him. I suppose it will be agreed that ~}
- ke„
spect to corn, as with respect to everythingl,
roil
i 'he general principle is one of not legislating' ,ot a -t!"ith
he subject.—(Hear, hear.) The general principle;
, the
ettird to all commodities is, that the producer thr
seller endeavours to produce anti to bring to 'Parke
which is most likely to find a ready and immediate re;
chaser ; and the purchaser, on his side, goe' 1') r'll. thte
to obtain the goods of which he is most in .11e i.it,,,,
best in their quality, and the cheapest in their I
The
therefore legislators have no place on the subject. n -'-th,
community themselves arc far better judges the roily
wisest Senate on the matter. The eurtleli
themselves, in their several capacities, choose '
iteed
are the articles of which they stand i these
—they choose from whom they purchase them, an /elves
elves
articles which afford profit. The producers the:
ausce*
are the best judges of the articles they shall .° Pro'
and of the markets to which they shall bring/ thlr,d at,
'uctions. This is a principle generally acknoleab it is
the present day, but like other excellent prineiples're are
exceedingly violated in practice. No doubt the rhea-
limitations and exceptions with regard 1 the.elorti-
cation of that rule ; and with respect to Cora le .sick`
cular I should say there are many limitations elliora t°'
I myself often had occasion to observe. With r,e6,,,,, no
general taxation, as Ricardo ably says, you, uvntries
right to tax corn corning from foreign eeeeesi
because your own people bear a largo : geivolti
taxation, and because that taxation would go lir'1„1-s. For
to factors and importers. But with regard to a"t,i/vita
titular taxation, without entering now—as Ido Du, AO
to enter—into that question, as to what taxatieli l','„lie
what its amount should be, the farmer and thost tiit,
cultivate the land bear a peculiar tax, it is unint'utider
that they should bring their products into the mark` reboil
this peculiar taxation, which protects the tecio .10
of foreign countries. There is another princic , ,if
down upon the subject by Dr. Adam Smith, PS "to ;V
tations embodying it were short, he would read it it oas
Horse. (The Noble Lord then read the extract✓ e t'cte6
to the effect that when a manufacturerhad beenlirefver
and encouraged so as to employ a great numbere*r the
sons, it should jbe a question of prudence whet'f:otarer
protection duty which encouraged the inalu!':'' 00]
should be done away with that if "
~o r
done away with, it should be done so with cautioa, ceor9
not to throw those who were employed in it out l' j
) 0
ployment. The Noble Lord then proese,th sal: '
prove this is a principle laid down by a I"goode./
thority, and one to which no objection could he na the •
I therefore think your legislation is unwise, e.e the
effect of this legislation of yours has been to eaejoolo
occupation of certain lands, and the employment ",. et 0'
labourers np6n them: Yon should ii,:leavour to pre`;itioti.
labourers in your own country from ail excess of tgtestil,
But, Sir, I come then to agree to so much of Tfre.sbotS,
as might be asked under these two heatls. if, itti-sef's3,
be found in Committee— if it should be found. matte, re
ing this matter in Committee, that there av'e ilni,-,11;1V,
ferences in the country I mention, I think the,Ysyt ear;
removed. If, however, it should be: proved Pitmen'
are no such preferences, if there be enCourageoe:,,to.„.,'
to agriculture by this law, that should likewise ltjgir '
into consideration, but the Government in proposil Ilif4
plan now before the House, take a wider rape? ;00ft
laid their principle far more wide ; they laid tauvcctet`
principle adopted by Malthus, which principle w° Der'
upon by the Legislature of this country on it fOrincefirce
sion. You ought to make yourselves independent)'' 0' oso!
nations.—(Cheers.) Now that is the principle.pcfpir
which the present law is framed—that is the l'rl4olo,
upon which the proposition of the Right Hon. hititi
is framed, and which tends to prevent, by pro 0,, '
other nations from sending food into this coou,tb'e e%;,
confess, therefore, although this propoSition InaLbtir,'
cellent to some remote and sequestered State----t,%-be,"j
it might suit a State in Mexico, I cannot coneetr'ettl
it can be applicable to a great e",l°/%11..,'
country. Supposing it . were desirable, ul„ Yr
manner would you establish it in practice r, e.i
must recollect; it is not merely with respect t?, thri
The Right Hon. Baronet stated the other iligdiiol
they bad had for four years au importation of 4;'"dtk.,
quarters, so that it might be said that the peopt woe'
conntry w ere depend ent:upon foreign countries til ether
fone million ofquartersayear. With respect to aloof;
commodities the employment of the people engageethi,,
nufactures as much depends upon the supply 19',Avtirt,r,
material as food. If the supplYof cotton from Alile'Vcifilit,
stopped, or the supply of foreign silk, there woui,deli.,
less than five millions of people deprived of Weil? ur
There would be seven millions ofyour people, ifYisa(t 1
this principle, who were dependent upon ' fore pie%
tions for- their food, and who cannot but et •it eio
to be so dependent—(Hear, hear)—so thf ' ole '4,
evident that any attempt which you have Ilitriej,lifce
make this country independent of foreign collo:1;0,11,
failed, and every such attempt must necessarily 'Alit
consequence is, as poitited out in the Report of thettel4so
tee of this House in 1821 ; the consequence is, y
yporiuceraisoefthoethprice e
oonftifnobeiditailn thiseou
neti°•illena,trlY lo 74Z!.
stimulus to agriculture, and the . c,,, ,"it t,
stimulus in favourable seasons was to peroalte- 0
in which it was impossible to dispose of all the'e°,p,
duced.—(Hear, hear.) Now, the inevitable:Cont!,l ,
of that is, that in those years you have the agfteler';
distress referred to in the report of 1821.—(Ileac,
These were the years in which Agricultural distrvro
14
referred to in the speeches. of the King, in r ee/94,
Committees, and in speeches in Parliament.-^o,lt
cheers.) You will find that these were the
~,otl,,
of agricultural distress, because there . was nod ,rb
and vent for the produce.—(Hear, hear.) A° settlA
follows? You will find that after this glut there„ 111:,.
a check to the production, which is restricted 00,,i
which is suited to average years ; so that in °lolitit!
able seasons
you do not have the Ill'/' fir`
food which is necessary, and you are tof tlf
to make a large importation, and thus the object sal Di'
law is defeated, and you have not that constunaly'std
which is desirable in all years.—(Hear.) The '' ivls'4
in which I conceive this object of the law to be fore,'"eo
for at all is .in . the case of war with,bool.o",,c,
nations. I cannot conceive greater time of a war "_.,...(h0'i 0
this country was struggling against Napoleou'„ fel!' ,
hear.) But, during the time of that war, tic- segr'tr
quarters of corn were imported in one singletiastjt
(Hear.) That importation was greatly dirninisbe
cont,,,
sequent years ; but still at that time this 00 j!,111;
was admitting foreign corn, there being re lit'te
to prevent the importation, and the people Leis ti;C,
partly on the produce of other nations. 13U,, haP if
any chance or probability that you wl„" -110.0,0
greater war than that to contend with , t , ,ii
there was, still I say, that restin' tofit;
are upon commerce and manufacture, the, not' pi
of food would be in danger ; but it woulu I. lletls
in the danger that is apprehended.—(l4ell ;of',flie'
Therefore, the remedy should be the very revers, ~i,t
which is proposed to the House.—(Cheel'illo 114;f11
remedy proposed to tho House as taken from 1,,„ ilidl 0,
Hon. Gentleman's argument, is to endeavour 5, 0 ,11)'
as possible to protect our native pi odutiOU., stOos
make such a law as never to have anlsarepf
except from the northern parts of 41111)or
The Right Honourable Gentleman in that „``tir 0,
said that the countries with which we have '' ;tart? If
merce are nearly in the same latitude as this ca ofigis
and that, consequently, their seasons were tot,
the same as ours. In other words, them tl ,s
Honourable Baronet endeavoured to mahlt, eltiy'
as a necessary consequence, when
tit Atltlfe
tries had abundance of provisions, so ria 10,i,
country have abundance, and *hen we wq OPfo'
scarcity, so Would they.—(Loud cheers from t"eeheslll;ich
Lion Benches.) All that argument went upou:hot `‘,4 e
sition that we should have a law such as .' -. 1" be
lie'•or J
exists at present, which confines the supP,,id.O•ettj
country.—(Hear, hear.) A real remedy e°'"reslti `;',
had in that way-our supplies should not heiote ft,
or confined to those countries alone, hilt die P.cil'e,
having our supply in those countric:, and illi.ed IV, tat'l
of Europe exclusively, We should be supluleot ij: Pr;
North of Europe--by the countries adiali -co'e .0,
Black Sea, and by every other country ° 0 ely
world. Our commerce should be extended ° 54 'l,,e
whole world for the purpose of giving us thato4,,v,
food of which Ave so greatly stand in need. ~.t(`,,ise,,si.°‘!
ictoit.noiehl
Opposition
einiloprattssi
principle
iii)tnonisocni
i's
ni
sliding
1 ilbli
rnereeo,gnoppt
benches,
hcisetaae: p(c;eih,rp,oibigapeysnioloidtsrfi ai
.delacutnoistiouyie,
ilng.dit
ehfiimnrtr(gsall_Ltedsohooec
tnebaitidel.oeelß. te,sel.atai)hielno.
enuiniej -111eloste
tit
vooji;oit i
011.
0:
t; ji:ifel.
is, that a high and prohibitory duty, I sbetiiireethyl
ways, forms part of that scale.--(llear'. eS tat'. z
loud cheers.) I can understand a scale nut i5.,,07
10s. or 125., and going down to 45., or 25., ur,„ it ' 0.1,11;
find that whenever Hon. Gentlemen speak4,itoll I`.l
scale, it always contains a high and a profit ore ?
to
What is the first duty in this proposed lue(ll,..et:tda9:l'
first duty is 20s. upon all foreign wheat; .hito1doot*:00
wish now to show, first, that that is a proqieb,e 01 „,
—(Cheers.) •I have looked at the papers °. sa° ii o'eri,
the latest information the House hay whietieoo4l., ,
the subject. I have looked at those paPer". Ge°' (11°''.
presented to the House by the Right 110.ttit'de, a° Veit
the Vice-President of the Board of rii weretiefesio ,
I have looked at the papers svl"e ii ;:,.etiforolot
stinted to Parliament, last year, bYt, or state 0,
who was expressly sent to the Nort 'ioci toics
for the purpose of ascertaining the Pr.,e' eotnta‘, til:g
trade there a gentleman who ha" hitt ai'oro;•
tions there not only with official persottr'''.o,os '4l,ir (F4ll
merchants and persons in trade there. ,t'.-,..titleui°;eserey,
at first that the Right Honourable
,yositig,,,e reero
Robert Peel) in the course of his sp
(-'clintleina° `tietas,..o,
as he did, his information from that Ge Gen fjere-
sbhitottillvdhhenavie
lmooakdeedanatatotaecke uppaornertshan?t
)1,1.16:13.tr11t
aiste,,riellrio
ther ceased, for I discovered that it ~`_
~ j3igt" . ,
other proof of the discretion of tin`'elieel", Vim"
nourable Gentleman.—(Laughter aTiottie .Itrill 11(1
find that the dufy upon wheat ill
_`.'4 neces,',` ooltie
that the charges which they say
,it detal,lej to lie,
incurred, and of which I need not go into
be :,(10 popope
be 4s. 6d. to 55., making in all 10s.6(1.: rice of ,goolaiiil
original price ; that as the origin.:,llc, 1210tilltsy, it woo
when brought from the interior of 11, t 0,,, sd.:, 455.
111,.
355., they say, with the addition
.01
„rice 0i,..0., o.‘„,
be sold in England, making the ihear)--of Our. st
What have we to add' to that ?........ win,.
_e ,„.iy.,i,e
ing 655. 6d., when the price here i." Tcri 'the 63.4; vilill 0
prohibitory ditty.—(Cheers.) ti;-int the v ,st soup,
Odessa it is statedin the return, No pit.
~....a
, of course, t !cos tP"--
265.. and the freight 10s. ; t tau #
that some charges which we canny