The Sun.
London, England, 1845-06-03 00:00:00

the suffering members of their flock, the priest was fore-
most to minister to their spiritual and temporal
necessities, and to console them.—( Hear.) Was it
not worth while to make the proposa,d experiment and raise the
priests of Ireland in the social as well as in the literary and
scientific scale ? The Noble Earl did riot suggest any remedy,
aad admitted that he knew of nothing which would be a •alu-
tary and permanent means of restoring tranquillity to that
country. The Noble Earl complained of the defective state of
the Protestant Church in Ireland, but he could hardly think a
Church was deficient in a pecuniary point of view which, riot
having a congregation of a million, enjoyed revenues to the
amount of 600,0001.—( Hear, hear.) He la ould sit down by
expressing an earnest hope that their Lordships would consent
to the second reading of the Bill with an overwhelming
majority.—(Cheers. )
The Duke of Al ANCHESTER thought Maynooth College
rather tendril to keep the Irish people in a state of bondage
and ignorance. Ile thought it was very important to know
what the tendency of the doctrines of Maynooth really was,
for a gentleman who had been professor at Maynooth
said all the bishops of Ireland were Repealers.
And yet, strange to ray, it was those same dis-
affected and disloyal men her Majesty's Government was
about to patronise. The Noble Duke read several extracts,
showing the state of crime in Ireland. ( The extracts were
taken from the charges of judges appointed by the present
Government—Baron Lefroy and others ) Six hundred and
fifty-three offences were committed in six months, Baron
Lefrov said, in one riding of Tipperary, and nor a fourth of
the offenders hail been brought to conviction. Such was the
moral condition of the peeple of Ireland. Now these were
proofs that not only did the Roman Catholics conceal crime,
but they also connived at it. The Noble Duke then read part,
of the evidence taken before the House of Lords• to show that
an Irish priest bad, from the altar, denounced those who had
given evidence in a criminal case as informers and blood-
monger=. They were also told that, after the concessions of
1830,criaie had greatly increased; Whiteboyism trevailed, and,
instigated by their priesthood, the populace evinced a deter-
mined opposition to the payment of tithes. In 1832 assas-
sinations arid murders were no longer rare, and in few in-
stances could the crimes be traced to the guilty parties ; and
they knew, on unquestionable authority, that the teachers of
the people were the great movers of crime. The doctrines
taught at Itlaynooth all led to the consequences he had de-
tailed, because they were founded on Dens' theology.
The doctrines of the Jesuits were discountenanced in other
Catholic countries. But it was maintained in Ireland, and the
books of the Jesuits wore class 'books in Maynooth. This led
to the conduct of the Irish Catholic priests in giving absolution
to a man before he has made restitution. This was (tarried so
far in Ireland, that it had occurred when men convicted of
Ribbonism were disposed to make restitution, the priest to
whom they confessed had interfered to prevent them.—( Hear,
hear.) If those doctrines were not taught at Maynooth, it
would be only justice to the priests who governed that college
to give them an opportunity of disproving the charges.
—( Hear, hear.) Why was it that Romanism was more
impracticable in Ireland than in other countries ?
It was owing to the freedom of the British Constitution, which
left tlie outer roan of the Romanist free, giving the priest the
means of malc,ng his inner man more enslaved.—( Hear, and a
laugh.) He spoke of Romanism now as a political, not as a
religions, seheme.—( Hear, hear.) He thought that there
ought to be an inquiry into the doctrines which the Govern-
ment was about to spread, before the Parliament should be
called upon to give money for the purpose. There was the
doctrine of " venial sin," which tended to weaken the morals
of the people, and to lead them into so slight a disregard of the
rights of property, that their own temporal interests were
damaged at the same time as the interests of their
souls, and they continued in starvation and misery
whilst their souls were endangered. The doctrine of
' vel ial sin" kept the morals of the people so low as to
deter eapital from going to the country He would occupy the
House no longer than to declare his belief, that if even all the
forfeited estates in Leland were restored to the Roman Catho-
lics, they could not be loyal to a Protestant Sovereign so long
as the bulls to which he had referred remained in force.

Lord B EA UM ON T protested against the charges made against
his co-religionists. If the Noble Lord who spoke last believed
that such doctrines as he charged the Roman Catholics with
existed, he did not do his duty unless be called upon the Par-
liament to sweep such venom from the land. If such charges
were true, toleration would be a crime. But when he listened
to the authorities which the Noble Duke and the Noble
Earl who spoke before him had made up their story from,
he found that those Noble Lords knew nothing of the doc-
trines that were taught by the Catholic Church. Many of
the dogmas charged upon the Church were the wily enuncia-
tions of statesmen for political purposes, and never had the
countenance of the Church. Many of the questions involved
in tkem were never for a moment entertained by the Church.
The Noble Lord might as well have quoted from the book of
any layman, and state such lay doctrines as of the highest ec-
clesia3tical authority. There was a medium between the doc-
trines of the Gallican Church and those of the Trans-
alpine or Transmontane party. (Cries of " Hear,
hear.") The book upon which so much stress hail been
laid by the Nobly Lords opposite had, in many particulars,
been condemned by the Church in the most authoritative man-
ner. He would, therefore, if he might be allo, ed to use the
term, give the lie most positively to the assertion, that the
doctrines contained in that book (" Dens' Theology") were
the docrines of the Church.

Earl RODEN said he found the book in the catalogue of
(he Mayoo()th class-books.

Lord-li EA UM ON T said if the Noble Earl had heard him out
he w ould have found that he was prepared to explain that circum-
stance. The students of theology were required to read over the
antagonist works, and this book, as read in the College, was pre-
pared by an introduction, cautioning the students
against the doctrines.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.")
Even if this grant to Maynooth were refused, the College
would flourish—the Roman Catholic religion in Ireland would
flourish as it had hitherto done, in spite of every persecution
—( Hear, hear)—and. however the Government of this country
might ti y to lighten the poverty and improve the condition of
that suffering people—( Hear, hear, hear)—unless the Noble
Earl was prepared to take a backward step, he could not leave
things as they were, but must take measures to elevate the op-
pressed Church, to improve the condition of the people, and to
diminish the bitter antagonism between the two Churches.—
(Hear, hear.) The more nearly the two Churches were
brought to one level, the less would be the animosity
between their members.—( Hear.) He had been in countries
where the two communions worshipped in the same churches,
and the utmost harmony prevailed amongst them.—( Hear. )
Let the Government of this country place the two Churches
upon the same footing here as they were in the parts of Ger-
many to which he referred, and they would find the same cor-
diality to be the result. He should only add, that in speaking
to this question he was placed in the dilemma either of speaking
of it as he felt, or as an indication of something that was to
follow in the same direction. This might alarm some ; but
even at that risk he would rather do so than hold back
and speak in a cautious or jesuitical manner.—( Hear, hear.)
He did not mean to look upon it as a mere question of recon-
ciliation, for he did not think it would be sufficient to reconci.e
the Roman Catholic priests, not to speak of the Catholic laity,
of Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) There was also something to be
done for the laity, if this country meant to conciliate Ireland.
He alluded to the Bill now before the other House for the
extension of lay .education. Many men of high station, if well
educated, might then take a turn for divinity, and having
become good theologians they might enter Mavneoth College
and become Catholic clergymen of the highest order.—( Hear. )
There was another subject which he would fain allude to. He
did not wish to make this solely a religious question. It
was well known that not only in Ireland but all over
Europe, the poorer the clergy were, the greater their influ-
ence ; and theref .re on that ground this House should not
hesitate to accede to the measure; for it would have the
effect of elevating the character of the Irish clergy.—
(Hear, hear.) With regard to the persecutions for consci-
ence sake, to which the Noble Lord opposite had alluded, he
( Lord Beaumont) fully agreed with the Noble Lord, that
protection and respect should he extended to the religious
opinions of all.—( Hear, hear.) Time was, when the clergy
of Bavaria were most intolerant ; but now they were amongst
the most liberal men of Europe.—( Hear, hear.) He would
not further trespass on their Lordships ; but he could not sit
down with rut expressing his gratitude to the Government for
this measure, as a Roman Catholic, though it was no more
than justice demanded, or was intended by those who preceded
the present Government.—(Loud cheers.)
Lord HARDWICK rose, and moved that the debate be
then adjourned.
Lord BROUGHAM thought, that if they adjourned to-
night, they would have to adjourn to-morrow night also.
At any rate they should continue the debate for a few hours
longer.

Lord COLCHESTER moved that the debate be continued.
The Marquis of CL AN RICARDE thought that an oppor-
tunity should be afforded to the Lord Bishop of Cashel to
address their Lordships that night.
The Bishop of CASHEL rose and said that if he spoke that
night, he had one consolation to offer their Lordships, that he
would not detain them so long as, in all probability, he would
if they adjourned the Bill till to-morrow night.—(Great
Lattghter. ) The doctrines taught at Alaynooth would,
in his opinion, disgrace any religion. It was, he
thought, a snliject of rejoicing that the clergy of their
Church were educated as gentlemen, and were not
merely stuffed with dogmatic theology. He would net detain
them song. One point which he would refer to was the infu-
sion of the Jesuits into the institutions that were spreading
over theicountry. Taking everything into account, he would
call uprn the Roman Catholic Members of that House to join
with him in endeavouring to arrest the influence of the Jesuits,
which was becoming so powerful and dangerous. But the
main ground on which he felt himself called upon to oppose
the Bill was his disinclination to be a party to the dissemina-
tion of error. He trusted he would express himself so as to
give no offence to those Catholics who were in that House, but
he could not help alluding to the respective meritsof the Church
of Rome and the Reformed Church. They were long since tried
and the verdict was given against the Church of Rome. That
verdict was that the Church of Rome was superstitious and
idolatrous. He felt that the Church of England had a refer-
ence to the Church of Rome which it had to no other Church,
for it had come out from the Church of Rome in consequence
of the errors which had crept into the latter. The ancients,
when they pledged their friends, first of all drank themselves
out of the cup, and on the same grounds he could never
think of allowing others to drink of the moral cup
of error which he refused to taste himself.—( Hear.)
He doubted whether the principles of the measure were in con-
sonance with the eath taken by the Sovereign, and he could
not conceive how any Minister could present a Bill for sig-
nature at that Throne which was upheld alone by contradictory
belief. Anticipating that the present was but a commence-
ment of a principle that would result in the endowment of the
Roman Catholic Church, and thus present the anomaly and
the disgrace of a State endowing; two Churches of antagonist
doctrines, because its Government believed none, he should
record his solemn and. decided opposition against the Bill,
and thereby redeem his pledge to his country and his God.
With these sentiments he would conclude.
Lord CLIFFORD said, he rose to ask a question of the
Right Rev. Prelate, whether he knew the contents of the Bth
Report of the Commissioners of Education?
The Bishop of CASHEL—I do not.
Lord CLIFFORD was of opinion that the Right Rev.
Prelate was therefore not in a position to give a definite
opinion on the subject. He (Lord Clifford) would refer to the
evidence of the Rev. Peter Kenny, one of the order of Jesuits,
given before that Commission, who, on being asked respecting
alleg,ance to the Pope, stated that their first allegiance was due
to the Sovereign of the country.—( Hear, hear.) After this
he could not see what objection could be urged against the
system of education pursued at 11Iaynooth.
The Earl of WINCHILSEA said it was too late to go
further into the debate that night, but he would engage, on
another evening, to prove to the Noble Lord, and to the House,
that the very opposite doctrines were taught.
The debate was then adjourned at One o'clock.