The Sun.
London, England, 1842-07-19 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

The SPEAKER took the Chair at the usual hour.
Captain FiTzmAuracE took the oaths, and his seat for
Buckinghamshire.
Tile Mersey Conservancy Bill was read a third time,
and passed.
Mr. BOROUGHS presented a petition from a pro-
vincial medical association, praying that no Charter
might be granted to the Colleges of Physicians and Sur-
lir,-0 Is of London. till a Bill for more extensive medical
reform aas introduced.

ANHO N. MEMBLII, on the Ministerial benches, pre-
sented a petition from King's county, in Ireland, praying
that the medical charities in that county should not be

placed under the control of the Poor-law Commissioners.
Mr. SCHOLEFIELI) presented a petition from Mr.
Attwood, a gentleman who had been formerly a Member
of that House, praying that the House would take into
ite sesioul consideration the prezent monetary- system,
which he alleged in it great meesure caused the ne-,v ex-
isting diatrece. -
Sie H, INGLIS peezented e patine.' ftGlil the Wind-
tor Church Union in favour of Church extension.
Sir G. GREY presented a petition from the South
Devon Medical Association, praying that no measure
granting a charter to the College of Physicians and
Surgeons of London—nor any measure on the subject
be passed till the whole subject of medical reform was
brought forward.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE presented a petition from 37 of
the inhabitants of Stafford, complaining of a verdict of
a .Jury passel on John Mason, Chartist lecturer, and
several other men at the last Quarter Sessions for the
county of Stafford, for attending ‘a, Deleting at Sedgeley,
near Stafford. The petitioners stated that they thought
the prisoners had not been fitirly treated—that be fore
summing up the evidence, the Chairman left the Court
with two of the jurymen, one of whom accompanied him
on his return, and the other did not return to Court for
some time after ; and they preyed the House to institute
an inquiry into the matter.
MEDICAL En) RM.
Sir C. LEMON presented a petition front thirty-live
members of the medical profession, prayiug that no
measure be entertained for ,ranting tiny cherters to the
London Colleges of Plipicians and Surgeons, till the
whole question of medical refo:m should have been
brought. bclhre the House.
Lord ASHLEY presented a petition in favour of the
limitation of the hours of wa irk in mills and factories.
NOTICES OF MOTION.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE gave notice that to-morsew,
the Order of the Dav ter going into a Committee of
Supply. he should call the attention of the llouse to the
petition he had that evening presented, from the county
of Stafford, on behalf of John Mason, a Chartist lec-
turer tend several others, committed to pist' at the last
Quarter Sessions for the country, fur having attended a
meeting at Sedgeley, in the same county. lie should
also move for copies of the depositions under which
they were committed, and for the mutes of the Magi-
striees and jury by whom they were tried.
WOOL- DE.
Mr. J. M. WOOD gave notice of his intention to
move that the duty on the lower priced. aortas of woolv,be
repealed. . . .
POOR-LAW& "
Mr. BECKETT gave notice that, on going into Corti •
mittee on the Poor-law- Amendment Bill; .he should
move that the borough of Leeds he exempted from its
operation. ,
. . .
Sir R. INGLIS said that seeing the Noble Lord, the
Secretary.for the Colonies, in his place, he wished to
put a question 'to him relative to the case of Nelson
Hackett. The question had been put in a different form
by an Hon. Member on the other side of the House.
He -wished, in the first place, to know from the Noble
Lord what ought to satisfy her Majesty's Government
in Canada as to the claim of the United States upon
a party whe had been convicted. Secondly, whether her
Majesty's Government would be prepared to assent to
the great principle, that the touching of the soil of
England constituted a right irrespective of the crime
of which the party was eccused. Her Majesty's Govern-
ment acted on that principle in the case of the CreJle,
and he believed they were right in so acting.
Lord STANLEY said that as to the last question
of his Honourable Friend, it was one of too much
delicacy, especially as negotiations were now
pending between this country and the United
States, to enter upon the principles upon which
her Alaiesty's Government would act in the case referred
to. With regard to the first question the subject was
regulated by the terms of a treaty with the province of
Canada, and the Governor in Council had power tuact in
he case.

POOR-LAWS.
Sir J. GRAHAM said that liefure moving the Order
of the Day for going. into Committee upon the Poor-law
Amendment Bill, the House would perhaps per.nit bitn
to call its attention to the present position of the Bill.
The House had consented to the first clause, which con-
tinued the Commission for five years, to which he at-
tached the greatest importance. The four next clauses
regulated the number of .Assistant Poor-law Cununis-
sioners, limited the power of the Commissioners in re-
spect to the issuing of rules and regulations, the time of
operation of the rules and orders which should be
issued in casts of urgency, and defined some matters
of comparative unimportance with regad to the
form in which notices should be served. It was not his
intention at that period of the the session to press on the
House the clauses which followed the first five clauses,
or those which referred to the Gilbert Unions-e-(Hear,
hear, from Captain Pechell)—or the forniation of dis-
tricts. But during the recess • the government would
consider the whole subject, and at the commencement of
next session would bring forward a measure on the sub-
ject, containing all the details in the present bill, and such
modifications and amendments as they may find necessary.
There were, however, two or three clauses in the Bill,
which, from the urgency of the matters they contained,
he was anxious to press immediately ofi the consideration
of the House. The first of these would be found in the
23d clause. It related to the power given to the guar-
dians with respect to the casual poor received into
The workhouses. At the present moment a practice had
arisen of using the workhouse as a sort of hostelry or
house of call for a night's lodging ; and a practice
.pre-
vaned. among the parties so admitted, . not only of
destroying . the furniture of the workhouse, but
in destroying their own clothes, so as t i ren-
der it necessary that new clothes should be provided
for diem at die cost of the Union, in order that they
might be detained for a longer period then would other-
'wise have been 'the ease. The 23d elapse would render
such conduct a misdemeanour, and would, give the Board
of Guardians the power of exacting fur a night's lodg-
ing a tusk of twenty-four hours. There were
also two or three other clauses, which 'he wished
might receive the immediate sanction of the House ;
one of them removed any doubts as to whetber a Magis-
trate, who was not an ex officio guardian, might act as a
Magistrate within the union. There were three or four
other clauses of minor importance,-relative to the regu-
lation of the workhouses, which, with the per-
mission of the House, he should be anxious to con-
sider in Committee. But the matters to which he
wished principally to call their attention, were those
which related to the continuance, for the present,
of the Gilbert Unions, to the formation of district unions
fin. the purposes of education, and to the improvements
in the system of internal regulation in the workhouses.
He did not wish to press the clauses which re-
lated to these subjects in the present state of the
House and at that advanced period of the
session. lie saw the Honourable Member for Roch-
dale (Mr. Sharman Crawford) in his place, and he
found that that Hon. Member had given notice of an
instruction on going into Committee. But he (Sir J.
Graham) doubted whether that instruction could be
moved consistently with the forms of the House, for it
was neither more nor less than an instruction to repeal
one of the principal enactments of the Irish Poor-law
Bill. That Bill proceeded on the distinct declaration
that no relief should under any circumstances be
administered in Ireland out of the workhouse. The Hen.
Member sought to repeal that provision ; but he (Sir J.
Graham) hoped that he would not press his motion after
the statements made that evening ; and at all events he
would not accede to such a proposition. He did not
even think that that was a proper opportunity for
discussing such a subject. Again, with respect to an
intimation, of which the Hon. Member for Oldhanx had
give notice, he begged to say that he thought it would
not be consistent with his duty to enter into discussion
on the subject to which it related, which was one of a
purely abstract nature. He hoped the Hon. Gentleman
would not press his motion, and thereby create unneces-
sary delay in the passing of those provisions of the Poor-
law Bill, to which he had already referred.
The Order of the Day having been read for going into
Committee on the Bill,
Mr. T. ])UNCOMBE wished to take that opportunity
of stating in the name of his Hon. Friend, the Member for
Westminster, relative to what had taken place the other
night on the Municipal Corporation Bill, that his Hon.
Friend had received an explanation from the Attorney-
General with which his Hon. Friend was perfectly
satisfied.
Captain PECHELL presented two petitions from
unions in Sussex,:sgast a repeal of the Act Incorporating
the Gilbert Unions.
Mr. FIELDEN objected to the course intended to be
pursued by the Right Hon. Baronet,, with regard to the
Poor-law Bill. The Right Hon. Baronet was giving up
that part of the Bill which was Most objectionable. All
the Mitigatory clauses
.were to be abandoned, but the
Commission was to be continued for six years. His ed-
vice to the Right Hon. Baronet was to abandon the Bill
altogether. He (Mr. }laden) could see no use ut all in time
Commissioners, and he houped that the Commission
would expire on theitst this
(mnzth.

Mr. SHARMAN CRAFORD, in rising to propose
the instruction of which he had given notice. regretted
exceedingly to hear the announcement of the Right Hun.
Baronet. The Irish Poor-law was intimately connected
with the subject before the House, but the
Irish Poor-law differed must essentially from
the English Poor-law in one respect. The
English Poor-law did not prohibit out-of-dour re-
liej, but left in the power of the Commissioners to regu
late tt. The Irish Poor-law gave no power even to the
Commissioners of ordering out-door relief. Neither
guardians, nor Magistrates, nor Commissioners had the
power of ordering out-of-door relief. In many parts
of Ireland there wer no workhouses, in many parts
the workhouses were inepablo of accommodating all
those entitled to relief, and under existing eirmm-
stances, w hen so many of the Irish poor were in a state
of utter destitution, it was absolutely necessary that
either the Commissioners or some other persons should
have the power of ordering out-door relief. An appli-
cation had been made by the Cork guardians to the
Commissioners, for liberty to order ouvloor relief, but
the Commissioners had answered that they themselves
had nut the power of ordering ou:-loor
Some relaxation of the law was absolutely necessary.
He had received several! letters from different parts, stat-
ing that the people were thrown out of employment, and
were in a state of starvation. in the west of Ireland
the distress was so great that the people said if they did
not have food they must take it by force. Was it not his
duty to try to relax the laws which so oppressed the people?
The Commissioners did not deny the prevalence of
mortality among the children in the workhouses,
but they stated that great tnortality existed like-
'visa the peasantry. That, however, W2S
no answer to the Case. The mortality resulted from
the way in which the. children were managed.
They were given. On charge to paupers who
had no interest in taking • care of them— to
whom it was a trouble to take care Of them,
and the consequence was, that it was impos-

sible the attention and care requisite to prolong the
lives of those poor children could be paid to them.
TI :e Poor-law Act, as at present constituted in Ireland,
.was a delusion. A good poor-law ought to make the
litndlords responsible-for the condition of the poor, bet
this poor -1' did oct do so. It rather did rvii thatz
since it produced an iminediate desire iii the I ~0;lord5.
to expel the poor Iron their e;;tates, is might tna,:_;fure
be said to have increased the distress of the country
rather than alleviated it. ' He thought it mould not be
inconsistent with the bill to grant to the Irish Commis-
sioners the power which he contended that they
ought to possess.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
_

For the motion ... • 12
Against it
Majority again,t 1110 motion ---100
POOIZ-LAW AM ENDMENT BILL.

on the motion that the Sp& aker leave the Chair to go
into Committee on this Bill,
11 n ELDEN rose to move that a. " of
wages," and " increased content of the labourers and
diminution of crime," were 1....v0 of the specifte effects
which the Report a the Commission, dated the 20th day
of Februare 1831, stated would tbdow the application of
their principle of administering relief to the inch
gout by the agency of a Central Board of Control.
That. the Minister (the present Earl peneer) who
brought the Poor-law Amendment Bill into this }louse.
on asking leave to do so, on the 19th day of April, 18:14,
said as follows, namely, "Ile thought 110 Mall could
doubt but that the change in the system would be advan •
tageous to the labourers themselves. It was pos-
sible it might appear to sotne Honourable Gentlemen,
that the agricultural labourer, having at present an ad-
dition from the parochial funds to the amount of
wie4vs paid by his employer (that addition being regu-
lated according to the number of his flintily). the
effect of taking away that assistance would make
it is impossible for him to maifitain himself and faY3ily.
lie (Lord Althurp) did not think such would be thecate,
for he believed, nay he hit confident, that, as the labourer
regarded the parochial assistance 11055' added to
the wages he received from his employer as making
the total wages to • which •he was entitled for his
industry, a very short time would elapse after the re-
moval of that assistance,'before wanes would rise to an
equivalent amount; and, Its soon as that was the case; the
situation in which the labour r would be placed'would
be ilifinitely prc,ferabli) to that in whidi ho at prck,int
stood." Thatthis Bill be proceeded with no further until it
be ascertained by inquiry of this House, that there hes been
since. the PoorJlaw Amendment Ant came into opera 7
tion, a rise of the wares of labour, increased contentment
ameng the labouring- people, set a,dimunition of crime. ;
and also that if a rise in the rate of"wages has taken
place, it has been to such arpeXtentsfts-Inkiye the abh-'
bodied labouring man with a Wife aild fkniily an equvaletit
for the periodical assistance afforded to him before the
passing of that Act. That itis•deSitablethat-such inquiry
should be satisfactory and conclUsive, and that it should
command the confidence of the country and that none
but labourers and employers be examined.- (The Hon
Member is making this motion, spoke in :•o low a tone
of voice as to be wholly Mendable fora long time.)

SPEAKING:)

ABUSING THE QUEEN.
TO THE EDITOR OF THE SUN.

Sin,—You will oblige one of your constant readers by pub-
lishing a list of the gentlemen present at the dinner where
Lord Errol presided, and whether they left the room, or re-
mained at the table, when the Noble Lord vacated the chair, on
Colonel Dundas abusing her Majesty.
It appears one of the party was a Captain in the Navy, a
Lord of the Admiralty, and brother of a Cabir et Minister. It
is the general opinion that those who remained in the room
were worse than Colonel Dundas. If he was drunk they were
sober, and yet they ailowed the person who abused her Majesty
to keep his scat, when he ought to have been kicked out of it,
and no step was taken to keep Lord Errol in the President's
cha;r.
The publishing the names of those present will do good, and
no doubt a list wilt be furnished you from the Clarendon.
July 18, 184'2. Yours, A. M.
[We have no means of ascertaining who were present on the
occasion.
.1

ST. AG O.—Letters from this unfortunate city con-
firm the sad news of the overturning of all the houses built
with masonry, and of all the public edifices. Abut two hun-
dred persons ha,e perished. The earthquake was perceived at
the same time as at Cape Haytien. New shocks, very strong,
having continued throughout the night and the following days.
The rest of the population removed a half league from the
city. At the first moment of this strong convulsion of the
earth, the river 'Vague was seen to go up towards its source,
and to divide into two parts, leaving a dry passage in its bed;
then to descend with astonishing impetuosity.

ANTI-CORN-LAW CON FERENCE

(Continued from our Afternoon Edition of yesterday.)
Mr. Rawsoti begged to inquire whether, and in all the cir-
cumstances of the case, it was not imperatively necessary that
they should be placed on a level with foreigners in the article
of food ?
Mr SHARPE said it was most desirable certainly. He did
not propose to give au opinion as to what was best to be done,
except so far as to say that the commercial and manufacturing
interests should be relieved. _ _ .

Mr. RAWSON inquired whether there was a prospect of a
further reduction of wages ?
Mr. Slut. arE said, it the orders did not come in morn freely
in future than they had done lately, they must, at all events,
reduce the number of hands.
The CIIA r lotto; said it was curious to observe the different es-
timates formed by the Government of this country and foreign
countries in reference to the importance of manufactures.
Every other Goverment seemed to think that to en-
courage manufactures was to promote the well-being
of a country ; it was reEerved for the British
House of Commons to tell them that you might encourage ma-
nufactures to too great an extent.—(Hear, hear.) The
landed aristocracy of this country were a distinct race of beings
ft-6m the landed aristocracy of other countries. The former
saw that their country would be benefited by the increase aed
encouragement of manufactures ; our landed aristocracy-were
only:careful lest the encouragement of manufactures should in-
terfere with and lower their rents.

....
A DELEGATE wished to ask the Provost of Paisley, as Chief
Magistrate of that town, whether, if the people should be
driven by hunger to help themselves to food, he would feel
himself justified in ordering the military to fire upon them ?
Mr. HENDEILSON, Provost of Paisley, said he would not
shrink from answering the question. The views of himself, and
Other professors of religion on that sub)ect, were so well known,
that the question need scarcely have been put. It was well
known that they held the opinion that military force, under all
circumstances was unnecessary and improper. At the same
time, he felt that he would be bound to use every effort
in his power to preserve the peace, and life, acid property.
He was convinced, that a single word of advice would
better preserve the peace than a thousand soldiers.
If they saw a house on fire, and the life of a human toeing
in danger, their first effort would be- directed to save the
human being ; and if there were ten thousand persons who
were starving, as was the ease in Paisley, would they be justi-
fied, under any circumstances, in sacrificing their lives ?
(Hear. hear.) If they saw a valuable cargo about to be lost,
and there were two or three individual. on board the vessel,
would they not forget the property, and endeavour to save the
lives?—( Hear, hear.) Within little more than a year, not
only the whole of Great Britain, but the whole of Europe,
had been agitated by the loss of the President steam-ship.
To what, on that occasion, had the public anxiety been di-
rected—to the property, the vessel and cargo—or to the human
beings on board her ?—( Cheers)—t be human lives undoubtedly.
—(Cheers.) The Duke of Richmond had a son on board that
ill-fated vessel—that son's life was valuable to the Duke. Could
there be a doubt but that the Duke would gladly have paid
double the value of the vessel and her cargo, if by so doing he
could have saved his son's life.—(Cheers.) Then should the
Duke of Richmond remember that the life of every other human
being is as dear to his relatives as was the life of his son to
him. —( Load cheers.) These were his notions and views on
the subject—which he would be prepared to act on, and justify.
Air:. Ilawsow said that, as an opinion had gone abroad that
if the. price of food should be reduced, the price of wages
must be reduced likewise ; and, as Mr. Sharpe had stated,
that, if things remained as they did, he should have to dis •
charge more hands, which would lead to a redudtion of
wages, he wished to ask Mr. .Sharpe, if free-trade were es-
tablished, whether he should not be able to employ more hands.
Mr. SHARRE would not say positively. He hoped and be-
lieved that fresh orders would come in in consequence of the es-
tablishment of free trade, and that woul-4 keep up wages.
Mr. JAMES Wresoer, of London, wished to ask Mr. Sharpe
a question in connection with this important subject, which
went to show the influence which the price of food exercised
on the rate of wages. Mr. Sharpe knew the manufactories on
the Continent, both for cotton-spinning and machine-making—
he alluded particularly to the Phoenix manufactory at Ghent,
and he would ask, seeing the great perfection to which the
continental manufacturers had attained, whether the rate of
wages in this country must not approximate more and more to
the rate of wages on the Continent? and if the wages should
even be equal, how would- it ever be possible for them to com-
pete with the Continental labourers, while food in this country
was double the price it was on the Continent?
Mr. Sneers: said that the excellence of the English work-
men, was such that employers could afford to give higher wages
than were given on the Continent, and yet to undersell the fo-
reigner ; but still, unless something should be done to counter.
act the progress of manufactures in Europe and America, they
would soon undersell us.
Mr. WILSON—There is a constant progress of approximation.
Mr. Slime —Certainly.
Mr. WILSON knew that on the Belgian railroads, where five
years ago almost every man employed was an Englishman,
they now had but one Englishman employed, and he had been
told by Count Cogan, one of the managers of the Phoenix works
at Ghent, that every day they were decreasing their number
of English workmen, and increasing the number of the Belgian
ones. The fact was that machines were now made so much by
machinery, that the same degree of manual skill was not now
required that had been required heretofore. Therefore wages
were constantly approximating, and when they became equal,
how could the English workman compete with the foreign one
if food were double the price here that it was on the Continent ?
Mr. COBDEN said that admitting that the English workman
obtained lugher wages, he was only paid at the same
rate as the Continental labourer. He was paid higher wages
because he was more skilled. Was he not entitled to the full
profits of his labour ?—( Cheers.) That point had been ad-
mirably put by Mr. Deacon Hume, who had asked the aristo-
cracy—Does the skill and ability of the Eriglish workman be-
long to him or to you?—(Cheers.) His bones and sinews
belong to him, not to you ; and if he earns high wages that
is no reason why you should take a portion of them from
him ? They were not paid higher wages than they were paid
on the Continent. There were English artisans in every large
town on the Continent, from Ostend to Moscow. These men
were paid double the wages that were paid to Continental
woe kmen. Why ? Because they earned them. These Conti-
nental capitalists did not send to England for the purpose of
getting dear labour. Their labour was cheaper than the la-
bour of the Continental labourer, because they were more
skilful workmen, and they instructed the others, and thus they
were paid double wages, because they were worth double the
money that Continental workmen ware.—(Cheers. )
Mr. DICK, of Paisley, had very'little to add to time state-
ments already made by the Provost, except to observe on the
effect which the general distress hart produced on the value of
property. Every one was aware that rents had in conse-
quence fallen one-half in Paisley, and even those reduced rents
could scarcely be collected. This was another ingredient in
the general distress, for those who had some little property
were less able to afford relief to the sufferers in consequence
of the depreciation of their own property. There were 50,000
inhabitants in Paisley, one-fifth of whom were living
on the other four-fifths ; and unless sonic remedy were
devised, they would ultimately eat up the whole population. -
llle had been reminded since lie came to this Conference of
the success of the manufacturers of the Continent, and he