The Sun.
London, England, 1842-03-05 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY MORNING. MARCH 5, 1841.

reverting to what occupied the attention of the Committee, I folio ing the policy of Turkey, which appointed the Capitan
refer to one subject—the good service pensions—and on this Paella on the ground that he had been born within sight of the
s
subject he would say that he hoped the house would continue tea, a was the cause with the present First Lord of the Admi-
ensions to persons when en full pay. He hoped he might be raity. It se as said that a civilian was appointed to the snece,
permitted to congratulate his Hon. Friend on the plain and because he was less likely to have personal motives for promot-
distinct manner in which he had laid the matter before the ;in officers in the service. But if he were obliged to
e
House ; and, having had some experience himself in the office ; hese- recourse to a naval officer to assist him. he (Sir
which his Hon. Friend so worthily filled, he knew that it was i Charles Napier) could not see how that naval officer might
only by the strictest attention that the estimates could be ; not have his relations and personal friends to promote just as
brought forward in so clear and lucid a manner. His lion. Friend ; much as if he were the First Lord of the Admiralty himself.
had assumed that a reduction of six sail of the line in the ser- rrem the year 872—( Great laughter ).—to a recent period in
vice would take place, as he observed that the Navy at present our history, the Sovereigns were the heads of the Admiralty,
contained 1,500 men more than had been voted for; and he they were the kings of the sea, and the Navy was immediately
hoped that the money thus saved would enable the Admiralty directed by High Admirals. In the reign of Queen Anne,
to reward honourable services. He (Mr. C. \Vood) hoped that after Lord Pembroke had served the office of Lord High Ad-
those complaints wnieh had been so freely made when he re- miral, the Commissioners of the Admiralty were appointed, and
presented the Admiralty would nut be made now. Ile trusted the system had continued since that time, for what reason he
that we need not expect the French to land in London, and that knew not, unless it was that the Ministers of the day, on look-
his Hon. Friend opposite would believe that he might sleep ing about them, found that civilians possessed more Par-
content and in peace, without having his orchards robbed by a liamentary influence than naval men possessed. An-
Russian fleet.—( Hear, hear.) Those complaints had been other reason was, that it was extremely advantageous to the
made, certainly most unjustifiably, in his time-- ( Hear)--but he Minister of the day to have the whole of the administration of
hoped they would not be made now. lie had no fault to find the Navy under his control, particularly when parties were
with the estimates which had- been laid on the table ; indeed, nicely balanced in that House.—( Hear, hear, and laughter.)
it would be strange if he had, for they were an near as He wished to show that this was no new opinion of his, or ex-
possible the estimates of last year —another proof pressed from opposition to the present Government. As far
that the successors of the late Government thought back' as 1816, he had addressed a letter to Lind Melville, in
they could not do much better than follow their ex- which he had pointed out the objectionable manner in which
ample.—( Hear, hear.) There were, however, some few points the Ne.vy was governed. In this he did not allude to a mere
of small importance where they differed—where the present Lord of the Admiralty, but to something even worse. ( The
Government had done that, in direct opposition to their prede- lion. and Gallant Member then read a short extract, in which
eessors, which, if they had considered better, they would not he made a strong objection to the appointment of a military
have done. He did not object to their giving full complements man to the Board of Admiralty.) 1 his was in 1816, and he
to the Navy, considering how the country was at present believed he followed it up, when the Right Hon Baronet was
situated with regard to foreign countries. Indeed, he thought at the head of the Admiralten Then he came into office he
that, during the last two years, it would have been better if ( Sir C. NaWer) pointed out the propriety of having a Com-
lareer, complements had been allowed.—( Hear, hear,) But he manner-in-Chief of the Fleet. He could not understand,
thought that the Admiralty had gone to work rather rashly, when the Army bad a Commander-in-Chief who was not a
that what they had done was founded upon no sound principle. Cabinet Minister, wnile the Master-General of the Ordnance,
In the Princess Charlotte, for example, when the former eons- the Quartermaster-General, the Military Secretary, and all
plemeat was 850 men, they made it 950; thus adding 100 tile officials of the Army administration were almost, exclu-
men more than was considered necessary, by six of the ablest sively, military men, why, there was not a Commander-in-
officers in the Navy. But three-deckers, which had formerly Chief, or whatever name he might have, at the head of the
been considered first-rates, wre to be considered first- Navy. There were many reasons why there should
rates no longer, but were to he reduced to second- be one ;it often happened that the First Lord of the
rates. If so complete a change as that had to be made, he Admiralty was very ignorant of naval affairs, but after remain-
( air. C. Wood) would not say another word on the subject. ing in office a little time, he imagined he was a perfect sailor,
He should be glad to hear if all that had been done was to de- and he believed that in the case of the last Lord of the Admiralty,
termine that at the present time ships should go to sea with he assumed a great deal more power than he had any authority
the full war complement; then nothing more would have to to do, because in the Board of Admiralty the re-
be
said; but if the Admiralty said that under all the circum sponsibility was divided. But if he was not mis.
stances, and at all times, ships never should leave this country taken, the late Lord of the Admiralty did assume
but with what had been considered a full war complement, he a power that had never been assumed before; it was with re-
should be glad to hear what were the reasons which had in- spect to manning the Navy. A scheme was prepared, after
duced the Admiralty to alter that which had hitherto been the great deliberation, for keeping the number of the Navy as low
uniform practice. He should be glad to know what the Ina.. as possible, and that was to be a war complement, with one-
sons were which had induced them now to reverse that which eighth to be taken as a peace establishment This was pre-
had been the decision of the Boards of Admiralty during peace served to Lord Minto, who put it in his pocket, and
for the present and the last century. There was another sub- never brought it before the Board at all, and no-
ject which had been alluded to, where the Admiralty had re- thing was heard of it till it was understood that his
versed the decision of their proceedings—it was the allowing Lordship had struck off one-fifth instead of one-eighths. Was
of sailors to receive their pensions with their pay. That was a that a proper way for the naval administration to be con-
subject where the late Board of Admiralty followed the course ducted ? In the time either of the Earl of Chatham or of
which had been previously adopted ; and he remembered a case Lord Spencer, the Board of Admiralty desired to supersede
in which two sailors, who were attacked with the gout, on Admiral Bridport, but several of the Lords of the Admiralty
board of the Formidable, at Spithead, had received the pay of refused to sign the order, when they were threateeed by the
able-bodied men and pensions at the same time. Sailors who First Lord that if the order was not signed, the Board
were discharged after serving twenty-one years, received a should cease to exist.—(Hear. hear.) But it went even
pension for life; but when they only suffered under temporary further than this; he had been told on good authority that irs
disabilities, they only received temporary pensions. The the time of Lord Spencer, several sheets of foolscap were sent
mode in which the Admiralty got rid of that gout round and signed, though many of the Lords of the Admiralty
case, was not by stopping the pensions, as they did not know the content.. But an instance had occurred of
surely ought to have done, but by making the men late years. He had read in one of the Malta papers that in a
quit the service. The Government had since decided on letter from Lord Minto, Admiral Stopford was ordered
giving no pensions but pensions for long service. He (Mr. to proceed off Candia, and there wait for orders.
Wood) folly coneuered with his Hon. and Gallant Friend the Was the Gallant Admiral light or wrong in obeying that
Member for 'Marylebone, that it was exceedingly objectionable order? If the First Lord of the Admiralty was responsible, the
to receive pay and pension together. He though the tendency naval administration would be better conducted. They had a
of the present system was to destroy a principle which was eif Vice and Rear-Admiral of England ; he did not wish to de-
the greatest service to the Navy—that of keeping up a constant prive them of their offices, but for the future he should pro.
intercourse with the merchant service. Ile always thought pose that there should be two Lords to assist
that the fact of those who received the pensions from the the Commissoners of the Navy in carrying on affairs. He
Navy going into the merchant's service, and speaking of the would put the Vice-Admiral of England at the head of the
present nature of the discipline of the Navy, did - dockyards of the kingdom; for if there had been one officer
much to do away with the dread which merchant at the head of the dockyards for the last ten years, they would
sailors frequently felt at en•ering the Navy. There not have been twenty-five years in finding out that it.
was a reduction of 10,0001. for dock-yard wage; ire was necessary to keep a ship of war on the slips to
questioned the prudence of this step, for it was only lately that save her from rotting. If they had such an officer they would
the operations in our dock-yards had been conducted wins suf- not have found the masts of sixty or seventy sail of the line
ficisnt vigour, and to the necessary extent, especially in the totally rotten. If they had a Commander-in-Chief at the head
building of first and second rate line-of-battle ships, though of of the Navy the British fis et would never have been
course he would admit that it was advisable to delay the launch- manned in the way it had been, for he would
ing of ships, as long as possible ; indeed, he was desirous to have told the Prime Minister that he would not
see it decided how long ship could remain on the stocks with- take the responsibility of sending the fleet to sea in
out being deterioated. Here he would advert to the bad such a manner. The present Board of Admiralty was
policy of the exposure that was made of the state of our dock- nothing but a screen to escape responsibility, for if any dis-
yards in 1639, when, by an attack made by the opposite party, I aster happened to whom could they apply? They
fereig i Powers were informed that there was not more than six could not hang the whole Board of Admiralty.—
montn's consumption in our dockyards, though that statement ( Laughter. ) One man might be impeached, and more
slid not give the exact facts of the case. But the Government easily than four or five, but at present the blame would be
to which he had belonged, had been gradually advancing the thrown from one to another through the whole Board. He
efficacy of Ve dock-yards, as would be seen from the wages thought he had heard it stated that night that the stores of the
in successive years ; being in Navy were reduced to the lowest possible scale ; that they were
1836 .. ... £300,000 ad on paper; that, in fact, there was nothing in the dock-
-1837 350,000 yards at all. Now, if the First Lord had of his own will and
1838
1839 .
1840
1841 ........ 505,000 sequence to the country ? He had stated his objections
But now the amount taken was
Again the am -unt voted for stores was— arid he would only make one other observation, which was,
1835 , £383,000 that if it continued to be conducted in the same manner by a
1836
1837 575,000 must ge on through every branch of the service. The Right
1838 593,000 Hon. Baronet ( Sir J. G; ahem) had, during his Administra-
-1839
1840
1841
Now it was
He hoped the dock.yard system wouid lose none the Admiralty; he be ieved he would job the Admiralty as
of its efficiency under its present superintendence. With little as any of his predecessors ; but if the First Lord of the
regard to steam vessels, he thought the reduction of 50,0001., Admiralty were masse perfectly responsible, he would not ask
which was made in that department, was a very large reduc- a naval officer to be placed there.
tion ; and, looking to the great importance of steam vessels to Captain CARNEGIE said the only reason why it had not
the Navy, he hoped that a large number of them would be been thought expedient to place a naval officer at the head of
laid on in the course of the year. There was only one other the Navy was, that it was said he must. be in the Cabinet, as
subject to which he would allude, and that was the packet ser- it required a man of great talents and active habits. Now his
vice. The passage to Halifax had been very successful and answer to that watt, keep him out of the Cabinet, if he was not
then with regard to the West Indies, the passage of vessels to worthy to enter it. The Navy would not complain of it.
that place had been performed with great. success. He con.: The Army, he believed, did not complain because Lord
footed he had a particular interest in those, because they were Hill was not in the Cabinet. The Navy did not
part of the arrangements made by himself when he was con- want a man versed in State secrets, but a man
fleeted with the Admiralty; and with respect to expense of the who knew the secret of governing the Navy.—( Hear.)
passage to the West Indies, he believed the receipts of the Post- If they were not to have a Naval Lord at the head of the Ad-
office were more than sufficient to defray it miraby, he hoped Government would see the necesity of be-
Sir G. COCKBURN said, that with regard to what the stowing !some of the appointments, that came daily in their
Hon Gentleman had said respecting the manning of the ships, gift, upon naval men. Such, fur instance, as the Second Se-
he (Sir G. Cockburn) must allow that although vessels of war cretary to the Admiralty, now so ably filled by Sir John Bar-
may be sufficiently manned to go to sea, they might not be so for row. He hoped, also, that hereafter the Government would
the purposes of war. He was therefore of opinion that it was take into consideration the propriety of making naval men
of the greatest importance that the ships should be properly Commissioners of Greenwich Hospital. In conclusion, he
manned ; and he would ask, how was it possible, if they left must say, in justice to the Right Hon. Gentleman, that the
the country without the proper complement of men, that they civilian at the head of the Admiralty Board was one of the
could perform in the Chinese and Indian Seas those services most competent that had ever been appointed.
that were expected from them ? But if the proper number of Lord HOWICK admitted the importance of the subject that
men were first employed, they could be more easily kept up. had been brought under the consideration of the Honour-
With respect to pensions, they found that one of the difficulties able and Gallant Officer. But while he did so, he had nu
in getting ships manned arose from paucity of pensior,s, and hesitation in saying, that he gave the preference to the existing
another difficulty, which arose from the same cause, was the .; arrangement, because it by no means excluded naval men
number of the deserters. Those pensions were granted some- ! from being First Lords of the Admiralty. He thought
times for life, and sometimes for one or more oears. It was it would be extremely inconvenient if it were laid down
always found that the longer the men remained in the ser- las a rule that persons of high rank in the Navy were to be made
vice the more competent they became, and if linty expected a First Lords of the Admiralty. Such a system had worked ill
pension the longer they would be inclined to remain in the in the Army, and he felt convinced that it would do so in:the
service. If they remained 21 years in the service, they were ! Navy. He would not at this hour of the night attempt
eligible to a pension ; and if they were invalids, they received to refer to' instances where such an arrangement in
pensions for two or three years. I the Army hfid been attended with the very worst effects.
Mr. C. WOOD explained. But this he would say, that at a fitting opportunity he should
Sir R H. INGLIS said he would not enter into the be prepared fo show, in the Administration of the Army for
general subject. He only rose for the purpose of de- the last thirty-five years, a series of mismanagement and
fending the commanders of the Niger expedition, which, blunders, affecting the lives and the welfare of British soldiers,
he contended, *as confided to men as gallant as any by which hundreds of thousands of lives, and millions of
whO ever carried their country's colours to any part , money had been sacrificed. If he could show that such a state ;
of the world. He was most anxious to express his of things had occurred in the Army, he trusted that a system
cordial acknowledgments to her Majesty's late and present Ad- which had led to such results would not be followed in the Nany.
ministrations for-the course they adopted with respect to that Ile thought that the country and Parliament looked for the good
expedition. Hon. Gentlemen were very sensitive with respect management of the Navy to the First Lord of the Admiralty,
to human life when the object was one of pure, unmixed bene- but he could• not carry out the different services connected
volenee. God for bid that he should undervalue the lass that with the office without he could find high officers to co-ope-
unhappily marked the course of that expedition. He grieved rate with him. If officers in the Admiralty did not think
as much as any gentleman in that House, or out of it, for the affairs were carried on in a manner of which they could approve,
loss of that expedition; but when he considered the loss of life their duty was plain and simple, it was to retire from the
that attended other expeditions, conducted for the single and Board. There ought to be the most entire confidence
sordid object of gain ; when he considered the loss of life at- among the members of the Board of Admiralty, therefore
tending former expeditions, conducted for the purpose of he regretted that the lion. and Gallant Officer had read the
carrying on the slave trade, and comparing it with the letter which he (Lord Howick) was convinced had not been
loss of that expedition undertaken for the purpose intended to be read to the House of Commons. The reading
of supporting it, he did not think the sensitiveness of lion of letters of that kind would put an end to all confidence among
Gentlemen, was greatly to be envied who could not endure Members of the Admiralty. His (Lord Howiek's) object in
the loss of 2.500 persons out of 10,0(10 engaged in the Guinea rising was not to let the speeches of the Gallant Officers that
trade, one quarter of the number of persons employed in the had been delivered that night go forth without giving his
ships that formed the expedition. He most sincerely thanked opinion on the plausible doctrines advanced in those speeches,
her Majesty's late Administration for sending an expedition namely, that they ought not to put an unprofessional man at
for purposes of the purest and most Christian benevolence.— the head of the Admiralty.
(Hear, hear.) He believed there were other instances of ex. Sir H. HARDINGE said that at that late hour of the
peditions in which 24 out of 25 persons perished, and a still night it was not fitting to discuss the question whether the
greater proportion out of the expeditions conducted Navy ought to be governed by a civilian or not. The report
by Oldfield and Louder. The result of the present expedi- which the Noble Lord had signed—every tittle of the evidence
tion, he contended, did not justify the language held by per- upon which the report had been founded, and which had been
sons out of doors with respect to the policy which dictated that given before the Noble Lord himself, went in a direction con-
expedition, and he hoped they would still carry it forward as Crary to the judgment which had been arrived at. if Hon.
far as might be consistent with the general principle on
blembers would read the evidence of the Duko of Wellington
which it was conducted. He did not see anything in that ex- dote that Commission (it was a Commission appointed by his
pedition to justify a Gallant Friend of his in speaking in the late Majesty), they would find not only in the evidence given
manner he did of her Majesty's late Administration, and ire by the Noble Duke, but also in that given by Lord Vivian, by
hopel the present Government would give the principle of it himself, and several other Military Officers, that the intended
their continued countenance and support. plan of superseding the Commander-in-Chief by a civilian,
Lord INGESTRIE explained. would have a most disastrous effect apon the Army,
Captain BERKELEY said in explanation, that when So strongly impressed was Lord Vivian with that sentiment,
serving oil the coast of Syria, in the month of August, 1840, that when, as part of the plan of the Noble Lord, it was intended
they had been warned that they were likely to come in contact to abolish the office of Master-General of the Ordnance, or re.
with the French fleet, but it was not until the month of form it, he intimated that sooner than accede to such a depre-
January following that they had got one man to complete the r iation of his office, he would resign. The Noble Lord must
fleet. Even the ships sent out expressly for the purpose of be aware that the Duke of Wellington and
several officers
meeting the fleet of France had only been able to come on condemned his plan. As foi himself, he would never consent
their peace compliment. Fifteen hundred seamen hail been to the 'functions of Commander-in-Chief being conferred on a
wanted to make up the complement, arid up to the month of civan.
Captain BERKELEY said, that with respect to his leaving
January, 1841, they had only got 350 of the number.
Captain PECHELL said that he could not but express his the Admiralty, he had written the letter which the gallant
approval of the manner in which the Estimates had been Commodore had read in explanation of the reasons which in
brought forward that evening; and he was ready to admit that fluenced him to resign his office. The letter was a mere state-
much benefit hadresultedto the service from improvements intro. ment of facts. lie had been guilty of no breach of confidence
duced by the present Administration. He was particularly glad to whatever. He was not the first that had published any state-
find that the practice was no longer enforced of not allowing ment on the matter. His publication was in answer to a pet-
seamen to re-enter the service with their pensions. His only lidation of the second Secretary of the Board of Admiralty,
regret was, that the estimates were not larger, so that we might who was present at all their deliberations, and who knew his
be enabled to have three fleets in full complement—the one in ( Capt. Berkeley's) opinion on the subject. He had published a
the Downs, the other at Portsmouth, and the other at Piy- defence of that statement, and he had been rewarued by the
mouth. It appeared that France had not reduced her fleet, First Lord of the Admiralty by the purchase of his book.—
and the Right Hon. Baronet, the Member for Dorchester, had (Laughter.) He (Capt. Berkeley) found it necessary, without
stated in a speech addressed to his constituents, and M. Guiz A entertaining any ill- will towards his colleagues, to
had positively stated in the French Chamber, that no such step make that statement, which he did, and the 1 tter
hadbeen taken by the French Government. The French Minister which he wrote was a simple statement (as there were so marry
of Marine had made a similar declaration, and it appeared that mis-statements abroad) as to the reasons which had influenced
a;
could,
about
o to
accountit change
th
foretherefore
jh hisre e
manner
becamepol ti c s
in an
him toi v
inh i
ceh v e
hery
France had now six sail of the line lying at Brest. Under his conduct, arid one of those reasons given among his constitu-
these circumstances, and in the present critical times, it did e
not become this country to reduce the great source of the na-
t
tional strength. on the score of economy. But although he justs':i
tsh
Ae7aays.otherthti: side
itdhee h
ofe
waso
House;
t
regretted that the Estimates were not larger, he thought they left the political party to which he belonged then, and still be-
were calculated to gve entire satisfaction as far as they went. longed. If ate Gallant Commodore wonld move that the sa-
After a few words from Sir G. COCKBVRN, which were 'try of the First Lord of the Admiralty, so long as he was a
quite inaudible in the gallery, civilian should be reduced, he (Captain Berkeley) would go
Sir C. NAPIER • 1 sae , the Gallant Admiral had quite mis- out of the House and vote with him.
understood him, if he supposed that he meant to speak dare-Mr. C. WOOD regretted very much that the Gallant Officer
spectfully of Lord Howe. What he had said was, that it was Imet read she letter in question.
impossible that he could have performed his duties as effi-
Sir C. NAPIER said he was authorised to do so.
ciently, in that particular case, as he would have done had he Mr. C. WOOD then regretted very much that the Gallant
not arrived at such an advanced age. Officer had authorised the Gallant Commodore to read that
Mr. WILLIAMS did not intone to offer any opposition to letter. Surely the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman would not
the vote.
deny that the First Lord of the Admiralty was at liberty to
gDart.irrßeOgWnlaßriltNy Gwhciealhledpretvhaeileadtteinntitohres onifotdhee Hof
koeuespeintog
tthhee write toan Admiral on a foreign station, giving him information.
re
C. NAPlER—Orders.--(A laugh. )
public accounts. Mr. C. WOOD was surprised that the Hon. and Gallant
After a few words from Mr. F. BARING the vote was Officer should talk about orders. Surely the Hon. and
agreed to. Gallant Officer must be aware that no orders could be issued
The next vote of 1,436,6291., to defray the wages of seamen by any single Member of the Board of Admiralty, but the First
and marine., was agreed to without observation. Lord was surely at liberty to write a private letter to Sir Robert
742,842/. for invalid seamen was agreed to. Stopford, giving him information, and Sir Robert Stopford
On the question that 121,4291- be granted to defray the ex- could not be blamed for going to Candia on the information
penses of the Board of Admiralty, - he had received from Lord Alinto. The Hon. and Gallant
Sir C. NAPIER said that he hail found no ground of Officer had said that he (Mr. C. Woods had
reason why the Navy of this country should be governed by a stated tilc
l:at
(illy. C. w
the Naenloosdni had said
stores were n ion
more
rme o
to-nights t discreditable
e thand ta bhl
he
civilian, es hen he had never been on board of a ship in his life state.
--(Hear, bear, and laughter.) The Government seemed to be had said three years ago when he was in office.

Captain BERKELEY explained that the Hon. Gentleman
was mistaken in saying that the question of manning had been a
Board question while he (Captain Berkeley) was at the Board.
The minute had been taken away by the First Lard, and he
(Captain Berkeley) was about to leave his carriage, being at
the door, when he said to his Honourable Friend—" I
see how it will end, the complements will not be
carried, and I shall have to give up my seat at the Board."
Shortly after he (Capt. Berkeley) went down into the
country, and while there he received a letter from the Hon.
Gentlemen, saying—" One-fif,h will be taken off instead of
one-eighth, and that, I trust, will satisfy you." His answer to
that communication was the publication of his answer to Sir
John Barrow's letter, and the resignation of his seat at that
Board.

FRANCE.
RIGHT OF SEARCII QUESTION.

CIIAMhER OF DEPUTIES—SITTING or FEB. 28.
The chair was taken by the President at one o'clock.
M. 'tiauguin then ascended the tribune, and spoke as
follows :—An event of the most serious importance has lately
taken place. A Treaty on the Right of Search has been con-
cluded between France, England, Prussia, Austria, whose
flag is scarcely known except in the Adriatic and the seas of
Greece and Russia, whose vessels seldom quit the Seven Seas
by which its immense territory is surrounded. The desertion
of the principles which make part of our maritime code, and
protect the navigation of neutral vessels has been talked of.
Public opinion and the Chamber have been deeply excited
with the affair, and from our deliberations an unanimous
amendment has emanated which east a serious censure on the
Treaty, which has been signed, but not ratified—a censure
the full force of which no one can mistake. The position
of the Ministry became very difficult. What was it to do?
Was it to adopt the new policy of which the Chamber
had assumed the initiative, or persist in its former poic ?
I like to render. every justice to an adversary. The
Ministry has acceded to the wishes of the Chamber ; it has re-
nnunced its own policy, and has accepted that of the Chamber.
But, inasmuch as it has not ratified the Treaty, it is placed in a
position which demands both its own and your serious atten-
tion. The refusal to ratify a Treaty which as been signed is
an event et rare occurrence in diplomacy, and may be attended
with most important consequences. What then is the position
created by the refusal to ratify ? The negotiator, who has not
exceeded his instructions, finds himself compromised—the
Minister is pledged; as to the Crown, it stands on an emi-
nence, where it eaenot be assailed, but it nevertheless feels the
centre coup of a refusal to ratify. It is not in a general way
desirable that negotiations, when once opened, should rot come
to a conclusion ; there is always a degree of embarrassment
resulting from it, and the most dangerous of all is, that the
country feels less confidence in the negotiator, and in the mo-
tive which directed his measures. For this reason when a re-
fusal to ratify takes place it is generally followed by a rupture
of diplomatic relations. A recent example cf this has just
occurred in the affair between Prussia and Holland ; the
Treaty had beer, signed in virtue of the instructions of the
King of Holland; nevertheless, the King having refused to
ratify, an interruption in the diplomatic relations between the
two countries took place, and the minister who had conducted
the nego:iations resigned his functions and his portfolio. You
see, Gentlemen, I lay the question fairly befote you; you
know that among a I the parties who aim at power, it is a mat-
ter of perfect indifference to roe which is successful ; 1 do not
therefore proceed by insinuations, I state a fact—l say that the
Dutch Minister of Foreign Affairs resigned his office. We
find ourselves in a similar situation, and this position is suffi-
ciently serious to merit all our attention. I have therefore a
question to ask of the Minister of Foreign Affairs, or rather a
request to make of him—it is to ask his opinion of die conduct
of the Dutch Minister of Foreign Affairs when placed in a posi-
tion strictly analogous to his own. The amendment of the
Chamber changed the whole policy of the Ministry ; it had one
of two steps to take—either to dissolve the Chamber, which it
had a right to do, or to. modify its conduct agreeably to the
wishes of the Chamber. This latter course presented serious
inconvenience, as the Minister would thus admit that the
policy of the Chamber was better than his own. What then
ought to be the position of a Minister when he is convinced he
has been deceived, and has committed an error? I beg him to
tell me. When he wishes to resume negotiations can he say to
the other Cabinets, " You may treat with me, for I represent
the oeinion of the Chamber-1 possess the confidence of' the
country ?" I ask him hew he could hold this language whilst
a signature given by him remains unratified—when he him-
self declares his non-adherence to what he has before or-
dained? Gentlemen, in this point of view principles are
the same, whether in diplomatic treaties or in agreements
between private individvals. When a contract has been
made, and it is broken by one of the parties, it inflicts an
insult on the other, and renders another contract very
difficult of arrangement. If this is the ease in private
affairs, in State affairs it is much worse. Gevernments are,
and ought to be, more jealous of their dignity ; they require
the respect of the people. When a Government has broken
its word to one Cabinet, how can it come forward to nego-
tiate with another? Amongst private individuals, a man who
has once broken a contract would not again be nege.tiated with.
It is the same between States—it even becomes to them a duty.
This breach of contract, in spite of the ties o relationship
between the two Royal families, has caused a rupture between
Prussia and Holland. The policy of France is not that of iso-
lation. But is rot the Minister of Foreign Affairs on the point
of finding himself in a situation of great embarrasment with
regard to the other Powers, when the Ministers of those Powers
shall, in the event of another Treaty being about to be concluded,
say to him, " Will y ou ratify the Treaty this time ?" But it has
been said majorities change ; the Chamber of Deputies is very
near its dissolution ; another majority may be formed, and we
shall have a different vote. Do you then fo:get that the amend-
me. t, which cast censure on your act was passed unanimously?
Have you promised to make the Chamber retract its own
exist ession of feeling ? If you have done so, you will have
lowered is character and your own, in showing that you
were resorting to a trick to gain time. The question is not
as to whether we shall enjoy supremacy on the ocean ; it is to
know whether we shall there exercise equal right? What
Minis'ers demand is what would be asked by English deputies.
murs and ironical laughter.) The question is to know
whether the interest of France is to be paramount to that of
England ; the question will be to know whether at the ap-
proaching elections we are to have French or English Depu-
ties There will keno modification of the Treaty ; the present
Minister of Foreign Affairs will obtain less concession than
any other. The present Treaty makes England the Magistrate
of the ocean ; no one can traverse it without being subject to
her search. She may proscribe city nation at her will, and
preventing her ships from navigating any sea she may point
out. Should France consent to such pretensions, she would
abandon every principle and abandon herself. I wish to call
tt.e attention of the Minister of Foreign Affairs to the situation
in which he is placed, and to the serious difficulties with which
lie is surrounded. I pause for his reply.
M. Gutzst said—lts the lengthened discussion which has
already taken piste on the question which is again brought
hi fore you, I maintained in all its constitutional freedom the
prerogative of the Crown—viz. its right to ratify the Treaty
which had been concluded ; but at the same time I acknow-
ledged that the feeling manifested by tl.e Chamber was entitled
to tl.e serious consideration of the King's Government. I
have acted upon this principle. My language has formed the
rule of my conduct. N't hen the moment for ratification arrived,
tl e Crown, upon the advice of the Cabinet, and particularly
of the Minister of Foreign Affairs, instructed the Ass bassador
in London to declare that the Crown felt that it ought not to
ratify the Treaty. It declared. moreover, that it could not say at
what period it might be able to do so ; and, at the same time
reserved to itself to propose modifications in the Treaty. The
Hon. Deputy who has spoken may tranquilise his mind. The
propositions of the Crown did not meet with the repulsion, the
antipathies, of which lie has informed the Chamber. The
position of the King's Government and the motives which d.'-
termined the conduct which it thought itself called upon to
adopt were perfectly understood. It thoroughly understood
that the other Powers, having no motive similar to that of the
French Government for not exchanging the ratifications,would
exchange them as soon as the period fixed for that act should
arrive ; and that the Protocol would remain indefinitely open
for France up to the moment when the modifications which
were to be the object of the negotiations to be entered upon,
and which wall, in fact, be entered upon, should have been
made. Such is the real state of things. No fixed delay has
been assigned for the closing of the Protocol. No engage-
ment, direct or indirect, has been entered into for ratifica-
tion by France at any' period, nor has any: even been hinted
at. Not one of the hypotheses set up by the Honourable
Deputy has presented itrelf. No person has even speculated
upon a possible change of opinion in the Chamber. Such
an idea would have been alike offensive to the Chamber, to
the Government, and to the Crown. All the facts of the case
were simply and honestly exposed. The truth only has been
told, and in a country in which the principles of constitutional
Government are in force the state of things was understood
just as it was exposed. The Protocol remains open ; France is
not separated from the other Powers ; France is not even upon
this special question isolated from the rest of Europe. Grave
legitimate and constitutional motives induced the Crown to re-
fuse its ratification, as it had a right to do. Such a state of
things has not besides been of such rare occurrence as the
Honourable Deputy pretends, for there have beers numerous
examples of reservations in the ratification of treaties. The
state of things then is perfectly simple, perfectly regular. The
ratification has not been given. A new negotiation has been
opened with the Powers with a view to obtain modifications
which would satisfy, as far as the honour of the Cha eber will
permit, the feeling which has been manifested by' the Chamber
and the public. What the precise object of these negotiations
is, and what the result as to the proposed modifications may be,
is a question upon which my sense of duty does not permit me
to enter now. The affair is pending, the negotiation is opened,
and it will be followed up with the desire not to violate the
ergagements of France, and not to abandon the cause, the
great cause, which is the object of the Treaty, but, at the
same time, to satisfy, the feeling which has been manifested
by the Chamber. It is opened with the intention of guaran-
teeing the independence and the legitimate interests of our
flag. Such is the object of the negotiations. The Chamber
will comprehend that I cannot at this moment enter into any
further details. I have been merely anxious to state the
case as it really stands. There is nothing irregular in it; it
is a delicate one, and requires to be treated with prudence and
care. There is reason to believe that we shall attain the
double object whirls we have in view. This is all that I can
say to-day.
M. Mauguin said he had felt it to be his duty to call the
attention of the Chamber to a situation which the Minister
himself called a delicate one. The Minister had said that the
Protocol remained open. He would repeat that France would
not obtain any modification. —( This expression was received
with clisapprohation from various parts of the Chamber. )
M. Joly said he did not think the Treaty could ever be
ratified, as a grave question of constitutional right was in-
volved. The Treaty, in one of its clauses, stated that an)
vessel which should be proved to have been engaged in the
slave-trade should be confiscated. By one of the causes of
the Charter the penalty of confiscation was abolished. They
could not revive this penalty in a Treaty with Foreign Powers.
M. Joly then proceeded to remark on several clauses of the
Treaty, particularly clause 1, which placed the slave-trade on
the same ground as piracy, and the signs by which the cruisers
were to recognise vessels engaged in that trade. lie spoke also
of the inconvenience to commerce of the right of search, and cf
the difficulty that there would be for the owner of a suspected
vessel ta show that it was not. engaged in the traffic which it
was the object of the Treaty to suppress.
M. Berrycr—The very simple and clear manner in which
the Minister for Foreign Affairs has placed the question
does not, in my opinion, perinit us to prolong this dis-
cuss'on. The Minister tells us that the Government sus-
pended the ratification, and did not say at what period it
is-mild be given. He also informs us that modifications have
been proposed by France, and that hitherto they have not been
rejected by tire other Cabinets. In this state of things it
is evident that the Minister for Foreign Affairs could give no
other answer to the ,questions which have been put to hint
than that which lie has given, and that he cannot fairly be
exposed to further questions whilst things remain in the
present state. I have, therefore, merely' one observation of
make to him. In the discussion on the address, I spoke
the dangers of the Treaty to France. It is not necessary for
me to say that the perusal of the Treaty gives additional im-
portance
to the observations which I have made. Evers-
thing in the Treaty is clear and precise on one point—viz. the
number of cruisers. I must confess that the way in which the
c' ause giving to the contracting parties the right of regulating
the number of cruisers according to their own views, and diet
which declares that the cruisers of one Power shall have no autho-
rity to act without the consent of the other Powers, are drawn
up, is of a nature to offer sufficient guarantees on this important
point. But I do not find precisely: the same guarantee in aticie
l I, which contains the stipulations of indemnity in the case of
a vessel having been improperly dives ted from its route. This
clause is so drawn up as to be, in my opinion, altogether illu-
sory. There is, besides, a clause, not in the Treaty itself, but
annexed to it, which seems to me to be pregnant with danger.
Everybody has remarked that it is a strange Treaty in which
narties figure who have so little interest its it, and Russia,
L'which has no maritime interest except on the African sea, L.
her alliance with the Americans has been particularly alluded
to. Now', it is declared by the Treaty that in the African sea
vessels of commerce, as well as vessels of war, are to be ex-
empted from the right of search. I have a right, therefore,
to assert, that the 'Treaty is entered into with Powers which
have no interest in the question. I will now rep .y' to the
speaker who preceded rne. He is in error in saying that our
laws no longer pronounce confiscation. Confiscation may he
and is pronounced under certain circumstances by our laws

Sir RUBERT PEEL would address himself to the question
which had been raised ke the Hon. and Gallant Officer.
He did not consider that it was fitting' that this House should
lay down a rule that, under all circumstances, the office of First
Lord of the Admiralty should be filled by a naval officer. Ile
should be sorry to lay down a rule excluding, under all circum-
stances, a naval man from the office of First Lord of the Admi-
ralty, but the present system did no such thing. It lef: the
office open to naval officets, while at the same time it did not
exclude civilians, and he should he sorry to see the House
depart from the constitution under which the Navy
had been administered for neatly a century.—(Hear, hear. )
Since 1797 there had been only two instances in which
naval men had been at the head of the Board of Ad-
miralty, and the Right Hon. Baronet was justifed in saying
that the administration of the service had given general satis-
faction. Let. them consider the great naval exploits which
'had been performed with civilians presiding at the head of the
Board. There were ale aye naval officers in the Beard to
give the First Lord advice, and when they looked
at the names of those who had been First Lords
for the last forty years, Lord Spencer, Mr. Gren-
ville and Lord Grey, he thought the House ought to
pause. It might be necessary to make reductions in the
Navy. It was clear that a civilian was most fit to make those
reductions. Again, a civilian was much better fitted to intro-
duce reform into the Naval Service than a Naval officer could
possibly be. A Naval Officer would be too much under
the dominion of pro''essional prejudices—( Hear, hear,
hearl—prejudicesw hich personally did him the highest honour,
to carry many measures into effect which might be carried
into effect by a civilian. On the whale, he trusted the House
would not interfere with the present constitution of the Board
of Admiralty.
Sir NAPIER could not agree with the Right Hon.
Baronet in the high character which he gave the Board
of Admiralty. He (Sir Charles Napier) had been
in the service forty-two years, and during the whole
of that time he had heard constant complaints o! the
manner in which the Navy had been ruled by the hoard of Ad-
miralty. The argument of the Right Hon. Baronet as to the
number of celebrated men who had presided over the Board of
Admiratty, told in his (Sir Charles Napier's) favour.—
( Cries of " Hear, hear.") Lord Barham was the First
Lord at the time when the battle of Trafalgar was fought;
shortly alter there was a change in the Administration, and
Lord Howick, now Lord Grey, succeeded him. He was suc-
ceeded by Mr. Grenville, who was succeeded in his turn by
Lord Audley, making four changes in one year. He (Sir C.
Napier), well recollected the inconvenience attending those
changes, and he had reason to do so, for he
had well nigh become a victim to them himself.
( The Hon and Gallant Member then read a long letter, that
he had written to the Board of Admiralty in the year 1816,
complaining of a civilian being placed at the head of the Ad-
miralty, as it was annoying to the feelings of officers to be
obliged to state the circumstances of,every action to a chief
who knew.not how to appreciate them.) The continued charges
which took place in the Board of Admiralty entailed an 'enor-
mous expense on the country. When the Board of Admiralty
was under the last Government, they made changes, and did ,a
great deal of good by doing so. When the present Adminis-
tration came into office, another general place took place, and
destroyed the good the last Board of Admiralty had done. Now
all these changes brought great expense upon the country—
an expense Hon. Gentlemen were not aware of. The Noble Lord
near him said that the remedy was perfectly easy, for, if one
Lord of the Admiralty disapproved of what the Board of Ad-
miralty did, he could put a cheek upon them by resigning.
But he ( Sir C. Napier) did not think Hon. Gentlemen were
much inclined to resign office at all, because, they kept in as
long as they could. He never saw a Lord of the Admiralty who
was willing to resign his situation and give up 1,006/. a-
year—( Continued laughter)—therefore, he thought the law
was very iesufficient. The Noble Lord said the British Army
was in a d reful p sition, and yet that army, under the Duke of
Wellington, had obtained the most glorious vie ories on record.
But the Noble Lord was no soldier. He pretended to say the
Army was ill-ruled, and he wished to keep the Navy in their
hands, in order to increase the patronage of the Government.—
( Loud laughter.) They had heard the Right Hon. Baronet
tell them of the great victories of our men ; and he ( Sir C.
Napier) kn w th :t during the latter period of the war the ships
were so insufficiently provided, that when a shot was fired at
the enemy they could not hit her. —( Laughter.) He
was in the Mediterranean fleet at the time when
the war commenced with America, aul instead of manning
ships suffic.ently well they sent out British men of war to be
taken and disgraced, and this was under a civil Board of
Admiralty. What did that Board of Admiralty do when they
found out their mistake? Why a secret order was sent
out to the officers on the American station not to
engage American frigates if they fell in with
them. thus throwing the whole of the blame cn the Captains.
The Captains did as they were ordered. " When I got the of der
(continued the Gallant Commodore), I put it into the only fit
piece for it, the quarter-gallery."—(Loud laughter, which con-
tinued fur many minutes.) He remembered perfectly well
when the late King became Lard High Admiral, the
Navy at that time was not in a wholesome state, it was ex-
tremely ingfficitart. He (the late King) found no justice was
going on, great patronage existed, and everything was sacri-
ficed to political influence. He (the late King) did
a great deal towards reforming the Navy. He used to
go down to Portsmouth and examine the ships himself,
Every Captain, when 'Lite heard that the Lord High Admiral
was coming down, took particular pains to see that his ship
was in order, for he well knew, if it was not, the Lord
high Admiral would complain. He (Sir Charles Na-
pier) remembered one case of an officer, under his com-
mand, and a gallant officer he was, serving in tl.e
Burmese war, being severely wounded. He fell ill and was near
to due, arid he saw his junior (Sheets promoted. Notwith-
standing his being recommended by his Commander to the
Admiralty, he could not get the smallest redress. lie ( Sir
C. Napier) himself asked- the reason, and went to the
Admiralty, but he could not get the smallest re-
dress ; but he wrote to the Lord High Admiral,
and the answer was, the officer was appointed to a
Captaincy. These things would occur again, and if they were
persisted in, it was perfectly impossible that the Navy could be
carried on with credit or advantage. lie ( sir C. Napier)
had seen the British Navy himself in America
(Liar being. disgraced; if they (the British line)
had fallen in with a French brig during the war—il:-
manned as the British vessels were, in consequence of the
stubbornness of those under whose management naval
affairs were then conducted there was not an
wereoffiner suirne otfhevietiy.
British
oi line who could say they
If the British Navy was ruled
by British officers, he was sure that those things
would not happen again. The Hon. and Gallant Member
concluded by moving, as an amendment, a reduction ha the
estimate After tao
ftehwe awmeorudns t
forfom4,sCooapLtain PECHELL in support of
the amendment ; also from Mr. WOOD and the Hon. SIDNEY
HERBERT,

The question was put from the Chair, and the Amendment
was negatived without a division.
The House resumed, the CIIAIRIuAN reported progress,
and obtained leave to sit again on Monday.
EXCHEQUER BILLS.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER brought in
a Bill for the appointment of a commission to inquire into
the Exchequer &ifs' fraud, which was ►ead a first time, and
ordered to be read a second time on Monday.
Lord ELIOT brought in a Bill to amend an Act of her
present Maje'ty for vacating any presentment fur rebuilding
the Gaol of Newgate in Dublin, and vacating any contract be-
tween the Commissioners for rebuildi► g the said gaol and the
contractor, which was reed a first time, and ordered to be
read a second time on Monday.
The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and the
House adjourned at One o'Clock, till Monday.

THE CORN-LAWS-MEETING IN
SHAD WELL.

A very numerous meeting of the inhabitants of the parish of St
Paul, Shadw ell, including the most influential merchants and ship.
owners of that district, was last night held in the Vestry-room,
"to consider the means to be adopted on Sir Robert Peel's intention
to perpetuate the Corn-laws."

Mr. CAREW, one of the Churchwardens, having been called to
the Chair, stated the objects of the meeting; and it having been
intimated that some Chartists were in the room, who were not
parishioners, requested that no one would interfere in the business
of the evening who was not a parishioner.
Mr. ALLAM moved the first resolution, which was as follows :
" That this meeting deeply sympathizes with their fellow.country.
men who are the subjects of severe sufferings and privations, and
at the same time cannot but express their anxious concern for their
future interests, as trade is fast declining, and commerce leaving
our shores, the whole of which lb attributable to the baneful effects
of the Corn and Provision.laws. This meeting further expresses
their disappointment in the measures prepared by her Majesty's
Government, which measure, instead of affording the least be-
nefit, only tends to perpetuate the same iniquitous system, and
that such plans are alike an insult to the nation and to suf.
faring humanity. seeing, therefore, that they have declined to
repeal those laws, which would be the only means to remove
distress, and improve trade, the meeting do memorialise her Majesty
to dismiss from her counsel's the present Ministry, and appoint such
men as will appreciate the nation's claims, and render to the trading
and commercial interests that justice so long den'ed them." Mr.
Allam reviewed the plan proposed by Sir R. Peel, and contended that
the Corn-law was no benefit to either the manufacturer or agricul-
turist, but was the bane of all classes, snore particularly the poor.
He knew it was difficult to approach Royalty, and it was more than
probab:e that their memorial would not find its way to her Majesty,
but if it did not, those to whom it would be confided would see
what was the opinion of this populous district.
The resolution having been seconded,
grobweesnedputhte
on being read, was
which,
carried unanimously
fouMndr.tFoßbleEsßomneoavreldy lalleathneenmdomtieolnit, and no seconder having been
found for it, that it fell to the ground,
Mr, A. C. Await then p oypttihoen
resolution oal ut i on memorialinto
af:',l;lo,ldstetegorrt,iigia)iotn:all
her Majesty, which was
unanimously agreed to.
appointed to c
effect, and it was resolved thaws hse, proceedings of the meeting
should be advertised in the Ti‘iiir. , un, and Morning Advertiser.
,mlaoutsi having
A Committee was then t t carry
It was then proposed by .JACKSON, and seconded by Mr.
4. That the best thanks of this meeting are due, and
the above resolution, to
are
bertby given to the Proprietors of The Sun newspaper, tor their
zealous exertion. for the interests of
the people, and snore espe-
cially for the publicity given theto proceedings of this parish."
A vote of thanks was then given to the Chairman, and the meet.
ing separated.

work belongs to that estimable class of
merely to present a vivid or
---OTf h‘i:hiicsh. is
linuai.trißly yan d
n"oTveelms,pttahteionai'm'FOß IVIVEs
SCHOOL
.--
tehaesilyAauffetheoerde.ss
The
striking picture of society. but
also
the convey )resent of deepest
practical importance in regardd rules of conduct in life,
ned trial of marriage may be gra-
dually of temper, the
or er own sex, as the title both of
waywardness
and she teaches how
ot this s
thea ndo
nhee her
hand,f i) former ebry Pi rnci,doinuo9cs:oitdiito,i smooth even
inconsiderate
dually enfeebled and dissolved, while on the other, an ha-
bitual
the roughest ways of do-
mestic iyi fondestut
uwhabolircecbusunsl itstiowinrabsittaieilon:nP jetnhhoeaisfetsfittilisoissee a delicate affectionate amiabi 1 i t i e s
which should be ev, r associat.ed with the character of woman
mraersetliycfianitleirncorZdee.rinTg he incidents by which she illustra,es her
The School for Wives" is fairly
kindly le: sons are spiritedly designed, and in situations of varied
aofeuerxdeicaultiwlcome amongst all those who come
interest bring into action chfoaracters of most contrasted dis-
similarity. In a word, both„
...r its purpose, and the merits of
as having been experienced in
Neitinsitthinitilneadntirlteeorcirele of the pupils whom it contemplates.—Herald
of the 25th November,
meAntdiovnicAeAs'
the roads of St. Denis, on 20th. A
good deal of damage was
done to the shipping, and one was wrecked ; several boats were
swamped at the same time.
iolte'rootnrtazßdoeunr,boornee,

If a vessel were proved to have been engaged in the slave
trade, it would be confiseated without the violation of any con-
stitutional right.

SPAIN.
Glais-Bizoin now said—ln the last sitting I applied for
permission to put certain questions to the Minister of Foreign
Affairs relative to Spin. Doubtlessly the President did not hear
me, fcr my demand does not figure on the order of the day.
I now ask whether the Chamber is disposed to hear me?
Guiaot—l hare already explained myself at great length
on the Spanish question on another occasion. It would be
imprudent, indeed it is impossible for me to change or add to
any thing that I hare said. I have, therefore, no reply to make
to M. Glais-Bizoin.

M. Glais-Bizoin—On the eve of a conspiracy organised
under the auspices of a Queen—(Great opposition to M. Glais-
Bizoin continuing was here expressed.)
M. Guizot said with eme warmth—l leave to the Chamber
to judge of the propriety of such language. Will you allow it
to be said that a Queen, residing in France, has organised a
conspiracy ?
The President said—The language employed by M. Glais-
Ilizoin was altogetiter unpailiamentary.
M. Glair-Bizoin—lt was declared in the English Parlia-
ment, that a flagrant conspiracy was being organised, and that
the day and hour of the exilosion were agreed upon. The
Prime Minister of England stated that the chief of this con-
spiracy was in Paris. I ask whether if, after such a declara-
tion by a Prime Minister, it is not necessary for France to
protest with - energy ? There already are sufficient grounds
for discord between France and Spain. We must not allow
new causes to arise. I ask the Cabinet to say what truth there
is in the declaration of the English Minister.
M. Guizot—J affirm that the person alluded to, Cabrera, for
it is he who has been mentioned, has not come to Paris. Per•.
mission was even refused to him to enter France. The Eng-
lish Ministry is in complete error on this subject.