The Sun.
London, England, 1827-06-13 00:00:00

WEDNESDAY EVENING, JUNE 13, 1827.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS, JLlqr 12.

It having been generally known that a discussion on the
Corn Bill was to take place this evening, a great number
of persons were in attendance at an early hour, in order to

procure admission.
The LORD CHIEF BARON, as Deputy Speaker,
took his seat on the Woolsack at a quarter past four o'clock.
Mr. ROBERTSON, from the office of the Commis-

.loners of Woods and Forests, presented the fourth an-
neal report of the Commissioners of the Holyrood-Ruad.
Mr. CLERK presented a copy of the resolutions of the
East India Company with respect to pensions, salaries, and
gratuities. _ _ _

Sir ALEXANDER GRANT, and others from tl►e Com-
mons, brought up the Penitentiary Regulation Bill, the
Petty Sessions' (Ireland) Bill, and several private Bills.

The LORD CHANCELLOR entered the House at
half-past five o'clock.
Earl GROSVENOR said he would have proposed to
put an end to the office of Lord Justice-General of Scot-
land, but that he had been informed by a Noble Lord
that there were difficulties in the way of the abolition ; he
would, however, early in the next Session, MOV3 for a
commission to enquire into the nature of these difficulties,
with the view of removing them.

Lord MELVILLE said, that it was the intention of his
Majesty's Government to propose some regulations respect-
ing the Courts of Scotland, which would have the effect of
abolishing the salary of the office in question ; he therefore
suggested to the Noble Lord the expediency of leaving the
matter in the hands of Government.
Lord GODERICH corroborated the statement of the
Noble Lord, and said that it was the intention of the Go-
vernment, to transfer the duties of the Lord Justice-Gene-
ral to ether offices, thus rendering that office unnecessary.
It should at the same time be remembered, that although
it became desirable to abolish a patent office ultimately,
that the holder of it had what might amount almost to a
vested right.
The Earl of ELDON said, that as the other great
questions wei e to stand over
,to the next Session, this one
might also be deferred.—(A laugh.)
The Archbishop of YORK presentee a petition from
York, against Burning Hindoo Widows.
Lord DUDLEY presented the Returns which had been
ir"ved for respecting the Expenditure of the Foreip Office
Department.

CORN BILL.

On the motion that the report of the Corn Bill be

brought up,
Lord COLCHESTER rose and said—My Lords, with
respect to the Bill itself, I object to its policy, and also to
its leading provision. I object to its policy in so far that
it tends to render this country's political situation more de-
pendant on that of foreign couutries—more dependant on
other countries for the means of subsistence, means that
may be cut off at any time and by any unexpected crisis.—
I object to the policy of the Bill in so far that it lowers
the agricultural interests, and in that it reduces the manu-
facturing interests of the country. It seems to bear upon
two classes of impoverished population, the starving la-
bourer as well as the starving manufacturer. (Hear,
hear, hear.) I think it has its effect also on Ireland.
—lt seems to me that the present tendency of the
Bill is to affect the grovetteettorn there, and in en doing

it takes away the money which would otherwise go to that
country, and I would rather see that country subsist more
on British corn than on that which comes from foreign
countries. If that were so, and that country thereby
more supported from its own produce of corn than
it at present is, the poorer class would be more active and
industrious than they have hitherto been. With respect to
the provisions of the Bill, if you mean that the prices men-
tioned there should be the price of the Corn, make
it so. Do what you profess to do : you tell the agri-
culturists you will protect them, prohibit therefore
the importation of all foreign corn, but that which will
come in at a lower price than they are entitled to. You
say, you give them what you may call as good, namely,
prohibitory duties ; now, I will affirm, that no man will be
able to state the price or amount of quantity that will be
imported, when once the market is laid open to all the
world.—(Hear, hear. )—My Lords, I think, in the Amend-
ments, a most valuable principle has been suggested ; and,
if you mean to give the people of England that which they
ought to have, let those Amendments be approved
of. As to the reciprocity, you say you give the
agriculturists protection by letting those who im-
port corn have our manufactures : that is, you are barter-
ing the interest of our Agriculturists—(Hear, hear.)—
which is a thing that ought never to be done. As to the
present proceedings with this Bill before us, and sitting
here to amend it, I say to do our duty honestly, we
ought to amend it in such a manner as to make
the measure the best to be adopted (Hear, hear,
hear. )—else why do we sit here ? I am well
aware, my Lords, it is said that there are technical
difficulties elsewhere, and that though it may be easy here,
Yet those difficulties are such as may not be got over.
Now, we had better come to a plain understanding
on that. Every one who is conversant with the history
of Parliament, and has read the Parliamentary Journals,
may find that the House of Commons claims rights which
the Members of it have uniformly insisted upon for
at least one hundred and fifty years. One of their claims
is against this House passing any Bills imposing duties.

The House of Lords had also claims distinct from those
of the House of Commons. Now the Commons have
recorded that they claim the sole and undoubted right of
beginning all grants of money, of levying all duties, and of li-
miting, directing, and appointing all the ends, purposes, pro-
hibitions, and qualifications of duties so imposed by the
Lords; thus we stand then with respect to the House of
Commons, and we think it our duty to suggest certain
Amendments, but then we are told that they will be use-
less. My Lords, I am not quite sure of that.—(Loud
cries of Hear, hear, hear.) Let us see how the case
stands. We are told that Corn will not pay duty when
imported, till it reaches a certain point ; but that
is not all, for there is another very important thing
which respects the average prices. The Commons have
said the average prices must be judged of every week; no,
say the Lords, we shall have it every six weeks—
we will have a safer way of detecting fraud by
having the average taken every six weeks than
every week, and we have every reason to believe
that that amendment will be adopted, which is an
amendment extremely important. We did our duty there,
and we should go on to do our duty now. If we do so,
and the House of Commons properly understand what is a
good legislation, they will reconsider the amendments;
they have frequently reconsidered matters, and I hope they
will continue to do so. (Hear, hea hear !) If the
House of Commons upon that consideration think it beet
to adopt those amendments, I am sure they will do so ; if
they see that they will be attended with the best practical
effect, I am fully persuaded they will act most wisely to
adopt them. My Lords, I hope sincerely they will adopt
the course now proposed, and thereby give the country a
law that will be most useful to it.—(Hear, hear.)—MY
Lords, these are the reasons for which I shall give
several votes, and if the amendments are successively
proposed, I shall vote for them.
The Report was then brought up, and received. It
was then read, clause by clause, and several verbal altera-
tions were agreed to.
On the question that the amendment be agreed to

which provided that no foreign corn be admitted into the

home market, for home consumption, whilst the average

price was less than 665.
Lord GODERICH ro,e—He felt great difficulty in pro-
posing the reconsideration of that amendment, which had
been introduced into the Committee. He was sure that

his Noble Friend (Wellington), who proposed that
amendment, and their Lordships generally, would do him the
iustice to think that he was not induced to call on them

from any other motive whatever than the most sincere con-
viction that the amendment was not calculated to effect
what his Noble Friend anticipated from its adoption ; but
that it had a tendency to aggravate the evils against which
he intended to provide. He assured their Lordships that
this was his only motive for calling on them to recon-
sider this amendment, and not to allow it to stand
part of the Bill. But before he said any thing as to
the practical effects of the clause, he wished to make a
few preliminary observations, with a view of setting his
Right lion. Friend the President of the Board of Trade
and himself right with the House as to. misconception into
which his Noble Friend had fallen. My Noble
Friend had stated, in proposing his clause, that
he did so, with the concurrence of my Right
Hon. Friend ; and, undoubtedly, their Lordships must have
been startled when they saw him objecting to a clause
sanctioned by his Right Hon. Friend the President of the
Board of Trade. He had now on the part of his Right
Hon. Friend, distinctly to assure their Lordships, that
he never intended to convey any acquiescence in that clause.
—ln the first place, he had never seen it—(hear,
hear, hear),—the statement of his Noble Friend was
founded on an impression derived from a sentence in
a letter written by his Right Hon. Friend to the
Noble Duke. In that letter, his Right Honourable
Friend is supposed to sanction the principle of the Amend-
went, but when the Noble Lords came to the consideration
of that letter he had no doubt of being able to convince them
that his Right Hon. Friend never aeant to convey any ap-
probation whatever of it. Of this fact he could satisfy
their Lordships, as well as from a conversation which
had since taken place between him and a Right
lion. Friend, as from what had passed between his Right
Honourable Friend and the Noble Duke. The fact was
that his Noble Friend had written to the President of the
Board of Trade to ask his concurrence in a clause, which
however had not since been proposed. The letter of his
Light Hon. Friend began by adverting to the difficulties
of introducing amendments. He (Lord Goderich) merely
mentioned this as the opinion of the individual, without
calling on their Lordships to be influenced in the slightest
degree by it. It was competent to their Lordships to in-
troduce any amendment they pleased into Bills sent up
from the Commons, and it was equally competent to the
other House to reject those Amendments. (Hear, hear.)
if an amendment was made in this House, it did not follow
that the House of Commons should acquiesce in it. Be-
fore they did so, they must agree to the spirit and effect of
the amendment; and for his part he (Lord Goderich)
did not know upon what grounds, if competent, he could
recommend the other House to assent to the amendment.
--(Hear, hear.)—As to the letter of his Right Hon.
Friend, the President of the Board of Trade, it set out by
stating that he would be willing to agree to any amend-
ments in the Upper House, which would satisfy those
Noble Lords who opposed the Bill, so that those amend-
ments wool ml not involve the existence of the measure on
its return to the lower House. His Right Honourable
Friend bad no objection to clearing away the Corn in bond
before the Bill came into operation, but he added
that he feared even this amendment would prove fatal
to the Bill in the other House. He (Lord Goderich)
always conceived this was the principle of his Right
Honourable Friend's amendment, and no other prin-
ciple. He declared, on his honour, that he never contem-
plated a permanent restriction on bonded grain. He thought
he had now defended his Right Hon. Friend from the
charge of being willing at one time to agree to an
amendment, which he afterwards expressed unwil-
lingness to represent to them. He hoped he had
also cleared himself from the imputation that from
caprice, or any other motive but an adherence to the
principles of the Bill he had opposed an amendment.
which must be fatal to it. The grounds on which
he called on their Lordships to decide that his Noble
Friend's Amendment would not be for the good of those

it was intended to serve, and that it should be recon-
sidered, were as follows :—ln the first instance, the change
produced by the amendment, was contrary to the principle
on which the Bill was founded, but he did not op-
pose it solely on this ground, it might be an exception
to the principle, and still good in itself, but he contended it
was intrinsically bad. His Noble Friend said, that when
be had a seat in his Majesty's Councils he had agreed to the
principle of the Bill, but was not answerable for its
details, never, in fact, having seen it till it came into
their Lordships' House. Nov, for his part, he did not
know what could have prevented him from seeing it, as it
was printed, and accessible to every body. Before it was
printed, it was before the Members of his Majesty's Go-
vernment, when the clause respecting the reciprocity
initial, and other clauses, were discussed. Those of the
Government who had the charge of the Bill in the other
House, did not presume to proceed without communicat-
ing with their colleagues. Now he wished on this oc-
casion, to call the attention of the House to the resolu-
tions on which the Bill was founded, and when he read
the first resolution, be thought their Lordships would agree
with him, considering that this clause was a direct de-
parture from the principle there laid down and recog-
nised by his Noble Friend. The first Resolution was as
follows : _ _ _

Resolved—That any corn, meal, or flour, imported into
this country, shall at all times be admissible for home use,

. .
on payment of the duties.
Now the clause proposed by his Noble Friend, declared
that corn placed in a certain predicament should not be
admissible for home use till the price rose to a certain
amount. By this clause, the object of his Noble Friend
seemed to be, to re-establish the prohibitory system. But
then it would be contended by his Noble Friend, that the
clause was not opposed to the principle of the Bill. This,
however, he (Lord G.) denied, for be considered it was a
manifest deviation from it. The amendment was brought
forward with the view of removing practical objections of
two sorts; first, as to the mode of taking the averages, in
which it was intended to prevent feiuds ; and secondly.
with the view of preventing the ni:zei.levous effects of
the market being glutted with corn at any one time. Now
as to the first of these evils, he did not see hew any trans-
actions respecting corn in bond could have any effect on
the averages. Corn so placed never came into the ave-
rages, and if it did come, its only effect would be to lower
the price in the market, and increase the duty. Thus
giving pro tanto an increased protection to the home
grower. Upon that ground, therefore, he could not under-
stand how any encouragement given to bonding corn in
this country could be held to afford greater facilities to the
introduction of foreign corn. By the Bid, all the influence
over the averages by the holders of bonded corn was taken
away ; but it remained now to be seen, whether by this
amendment that influence was not given to them. He was
decidedly of opinion that its effect would be to give those
holders an interest to strain every nerve in altering the
averages, in order to release their own corn out of bond.
Bonded corn could not, if this amendment passed, be
taken out of bond, until the price of corn was 665. How
then would this work ? P tween the passing of the Bill
and this day twelvemonth, there may be accumulated a
large quantity of corn in bond—say' 1,000,000 of quarters.
This would be locked up, of course, till the price rose to
665. Did tke House think that the owners of this corn
would be idle? Would they not, in their own defence,
labour, even by sacrificing a portion of capital, to raise the
general price of the market, and by that means open the
-doors to a flood of foreign corn, the.supply of which would
by that means be proportioned, not to the wants of the
people, but because of the temporary facility of intro-

PRICE 71).

ducing it, and thus all the evils ke produced, which the
Noble Duke declared it was his object to avoid.--(Hear.)
It was in proof that the prices of corn in this count:-)
might be.at any time influenced at the sacrifice of some
capital.., Did their Lordships think these large capitalists
would hesitateto,elmd some thousands in buying up Eng-
lish corn, in'orderitp raise the general price, and thus save
the remainder, ratter than expose themselves to certain
loss upon "the whole speculation ? Every consideration that
could influence the mind of man must impel persons so
situated to strive unceasingly to raise the,mae:_,, in order
to-get their own property out of bond. Another light in
which this question ought to be viewed was one of great
importance. He had no doubt.—and he spoke it conside-
rately--4at this armndment would be most likely to put
an end to warehousing in the country altogether.—(A
loud cheer from the Opposition, with laughter.)—He un-
derstood these cheers. It was well for those Noble Lords
who thought that there ought to be no warehousing, to
support this amendment; but he called r.pon those others
who did not disapprove of that system to repudiate the
amendment. Perhaps he was presumptuous in predicating
thus confidently of the amendment, but it was his firm be-
lief that it would extinguish wareheusing altogether it
this country. He must understand by his Noble
,Friend
persisting in this amendment, that he was now, whatever
he might have formerly been, an advocate for the extinction
of the warehousing system.
The Duke of WELLINGTON wished not to be misun-
derstood. He was not an enemy to the warehousing sys-
tem.—(Hear.)

Lord GODERICH had expected as much from his
Noble Friend, for if he had voted otherwise, he must have
flown in the teeth of a resolution which he (the Duke of
Wellington) had before sanctioned.----(Hear.)----The prac-
tical question arising out of this amendment would be, whe-
ther warehousing of corn was or was not in future to be
countenanced in this country? His position was, that
whether at a profit or loss, the corn which was now in
bond would find its way into the market, notwithstanding
the operation of this amendment. In order to prove this,
he should assume that a man might have warehoused
500,000 quarters of grain in this country upon the specu-
lation of a rise, without running the hazard of absolute
ruin; corn rises to 615., 625., and 635., and as it ap-
proaches 665. a stimulus is given to the holders of foreign
corn on the other side of the water, who try to keep the
price under 665., in order to shut out the competition of
the bonded.corn, which cannot come into market until the
price touches that mark. These holders then find themselves
exposed to the disadvantageous rivalship with the importer
from Antwerp and Hamburgb, and as there is no chance left
him of getting a sale for his corn, he has no alternative but
that of taking his corn to Antwerp, and bringing it back again
here as foreign corn just imported. Such course must
be a losing one to him, and therefore the effect will be to
put an end to warehousing altogether ; for who would put
their corn into bond, and he obliged, after all, to take it t(
Antwerp, and wring it back here again ?—(Hear.) He
nut it then to the House whether they were prepared to
adopt a measure fraught with such important consequences
as that of extinguishing altogether the warehousing► system
in this country ? He had already expressed his own hum-
ble opinion that such a measure would be most mischiev-
ous ; and he could nuote to their Lordships the opinions o'
others, more entitled to their consideration, to the same
effect. He had the authority of the Noble Duke himsel,
(Wellington), by his sanction of the original resolution,
that such a system ought not to be given up.—(Hear,
hear, hear.) Lord Liverpool also, whose information
upon these subjects claimed the greatest right, in a report
made to the King in Council in 1821, strongly urged thr
expediency of continuing the warehousing system. Their
Lordships were aware that this measure was not new—it
had been adopted in 1773. It was not, therefore, an inno-
vation of their's, but had been adopted by them upon the
recommendation of men of the greatest experience, as a

measure calculated to serve the best interests of the
country, and in many cases the only means of saving the
country from the horrors of starvation. He was quite at
a loss to account for the hostility shown by some Noble
Lords in that House to the warehousing system, who had
declared that they did not care if they never heard of it
again during their lives.—(A laugh.)—lt was a measure
which must expose the country to great misery. In dis-
cussing this subject, he had not said a word to inflame the
passions of the class, which, after all, were objects of
primary importance, the body of the consumers in this
country. He yielded to no man in attachment to the
interests of the agricultural classes, but Noble Lords
ought never forget that the duty of supplying the people
with food was a nice, difficult, and most anxious conside-
ration; and that the first duty of Parliament was to guard
against the possibility of any failure of supply in the event
of bad seasons at home. He therefore entreated the House
to reconsider this matter. If they supposed that this
measure would not have the effect of extinguishing
warehousing, they were much mistaken. He bad used
this argument on a former night, but had been met
with scorn and sarcasm by a Noble Lord. The posi-
tion which he took up was, that if corn was not ware-
housed in this country, it world be at the other side of the.
water. He was not military man enough to spy what
number of ships would be employed in this service,
or whether there would not be wanted as many as would
transport eighty thousand men, with all their baggage and
military stores. All that he meant to say was, that as
much corn would be imported here as the warehouses at
the other side could possibly crowd in, and that, too, not
with reference to the supply supposed to be required, but
in a spirit of taking advantage of the facility of importa-
tion which the moment afforded. Suppose the duty should
be fixed in a Friday's Gazette, at 205., there were many
persons here watching the market who would sell out
at that price, though at a lou ; but others who were
not pressed for money might not do so. But as soon as
the corn at the other side of the water was forced here, all
parties, at all hazards, would bring their corn out, with-
out reference to the comparison of demand and supply,
but in order not to forfeit the opportunity by which all
would be lost. He did not venture to say how much
would or would ne, ue brought out in one week, but he
asserted confidently, that if the corn from the other side
was forced, the holders would pour in here all that they
possibly could. And another and most important consider-
ation connected with this view of the subject was, that the
corn so brought would not be carried in British ships.—
The House might assume that the whole of that trade
would be carried on by Dutch or Baltic ships ; British
vessels would not be sought after; there would not be
time to send for them. These men understood their own
interests too well to expose themselves to the danger
of failure by waiting for foreign ships ; as every thing de-
pended upon expedition, they would of course be prepared
with their vessels at a moment's warning. There would
be no difficulty--no mystery in the case ; they might load
their ships with the greatest ease ; and the consideration
that not a quarter of this corn would be brought here in
British bottoms, was of itself sufficient to render that
policy questionable. He was not aware that he had any
more observations to make on this subject. He had cer-
tainly treated it with earnestness, because he felt strongly
upon it. It bad been said that he wished to give it a party
complexion. This he was not aware of. He had endea-
voured to diffuse as much temper into the discussion as he
could, and in his own person he believed he could take
credit for having done so. He should perhaps have been
justified in assuming another tone, but he had made it his
practice, when he had conscientiously determined to sup-
port any measure, to state his opinions upon it in the
plainest and most straight-forward way. He never would
resort to any other.—(Hear.)—He assured their Lordships
that this was a subject to which, more than any other, he
had given his attention. For many years it had been his
duty to pay the closest attention to the subject now under
consideration, and though he did not call upon their Lord-
ships to reject this amendment upon that ground, yet it
gave him an interest, naturally, in the fate of this measure.
If, then, he was convinced that this amendment, instead 01
being productive of those mischievous consequences which
he had apprehended from it, was calculated to produce the
good results anticipated by the Noble Duke, be should
give it his support, uninfluenced by any fear on his be-
half of being crushed by the storm which had beet
raised against him.—(Hear.)—But as he could not bring
Ilia mind to that conclusion, he felt it his duty to call
upon their Lordships to reconsider this amendment.--
(Hears hear.)
The Duke of WELLINGTON rose to address this
House, but in so inaudible a tone of voice that no two con-
secutive sentences of his could be heard below the bar.
We understood him to say, that, being the person who had
proposed the clause under consideration, and because of
the allusions made to him by ,the Noble Lord who hat'
just at down, he felt it neeesatuy to claim their Lord-