Star.
London, England, 1808-05-26 00:00:00

ble; or if they could not be surmounted without objet- mon sense who could compere that d" lvi
dons greater then any practical good eillich could now the danger of a French army in Irelanelsegeronitleineti
be derived from tke measure, he thought the Right with an ignorant and dissatisfied population ? Al-
Hon. Gentleman would do well to return the petition though some Heinourable and Learned Members,
to those from whom he received it ; and he oceilil now who might understand their particular profession well,
return it unsullied with any improper observation, but who were utterly ignorant of principles of general
and certainly without any injury having been sustain- policy, had talked much of the necessary connection
ed by the cause from the manner in which it was between Church and State, it would not be In theft
brought forward. The cause of his clients was cer- power to point out how the Church WAS to be sop-
tainly not deteriorated in his hands ; and if the exam- ported, if the State was taken away from it, It ap-
ple of the Right Hon. Gentleman were followed by peered to him, however, that if the State edeld suf-
his friends, the discussion, if it did no good, would fer any thing through the wound that it was appro.
certa.ttly do no mischief. Although he felt it his duty hended the Church might receive, it was at least a
on the present occasion to vote against the motion, very slow and lingering process ; and when a danger
yet he hoped tke Right Hon. Gentleman would not was very remote, he might allaw himself the cons°.
suppose him actuated by any spirit of illiberality, or lation of supposing that it miiht possibly never take
that he did not sincerely wish the question to remain place. The danger, on the other hand, was so great
as it is now, and without prejudice to a future and and so immediate, that he would venture to say, it
more favourable opportunity. He gave the Right would in time overbear all opposition ; and above
Hone Gentleman edit for having stirred a danger- all, that opposition which the Right Hon. Secretary
ous question in a aienner as little dangerous as possi- had now made, on the mere ground of expediency
ble, and concluded by deprecating a protracted dis- and practicability.
cussion. Lord POLLINGTON said he could not give his
Mr. WINDHAM began by observing, that Lord assent to the proposition which had been brought
Chesterfield, in one of his lessons to his son, says, that forward. He was well aware of the necessity of con-
the opening of the celebrated play of Addison's Cato, ciliating Ireland, by every practicable means ; but
" The dawn is overcast, the morning lours, he thought the present measure was at the present
" And heavily in clouds brings on the day," time a most obnoxious one to the people of this CQUII.
was, after all, nothing more than the information try, and he deprecated the discussion.
which the people of this metropolis are in the daily Lord MILTON 'differed most entirely from the
habit of hearing from an old watchman, o It's past Right Hon. Secretary, who thought all discussion of
four o'clock, and a cloudy morning." (Aloud laugh.) the subject improper. For his part, he was convinced
This sentiment, however, when put in a poetical dress, that whatever might be the vote of the House upon
had been much admired. The speech which he had that niht, great good would result from the discus-
just heard from the Right Honourable Secretary (Mr. sion. -Ie believed, and indeed he had manyoppor-
Canning) put him very much in mind of that obser- tunities of knowing, that the last discussion had done
vation of Lord Chesterfield ; for, from the beginning a great deal to familiarize the minds of the people of
of it to the end, he could find nothing in it but that this country to the measure, and to remove the preju-
the discussion was very disagreeable to the Right dice which existed against giving the Catholics of
Hon. Secretary and his friends, but more particularly Ireland their rights, which they so justly claimed. A
to the Right Hon. Secretary. The Right Hon. Gen- good deal had been said of certain laws of our ances-
tieman had more particularly deprecated ally mixture tors, as if they were absolutely immutable • and it was
of personal animosity in the debate : he (of all the endeavoured to identify the glorious Revolution with
Members in the House) who was most in the habit of those odious doctrines of exclusion and proscription,
enlivening his speeches by personalities, now depre- which some persons were still found to advocate. He
cated any thing of personal animosity being intro- hoped they would never be identified ; for if they were,
duced ; and yet, although he so strongly recommen- he should feel that he had been mistaken in that ad-
ded to the house the example of moderation of the miration which he had hitherto felt for that Revolu-
Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Grattan) who intro don. It should be recollected that the test laws,
duced the business, yet he by no means chose himself which some people identified with the Revolution,
to follow that example, which he so strongly and pro- were in fact previous to it, and were caused by the
perly recommended to others. He agreed however dangerous political principles of the House of Stuart
with the Right Honourable Secretary, in his lamenta. in that day. He must confess that the object of them
tion of the existence of religious discords and animo- was in some degree to keep down Catholicism ; but
sities ; but the question now was, when such aniino- it was in a much greater degree to guard the nation
sities were acknowledged to exist, what was to be done from the tyranny that it had just reason to apprehend
with them ? If the object was either to satisfy or to from the political principles of the Duke of York,
allay them, would it be said that the best way of sa- who was afterwards King James the Second. If it
tisfying the Catholic feeling would be, not only to was allowed by every body that these causes no longer
refuse them all they ask, but even not to allow them existed, nor any thing like them, the policy of adher-
the satisfaction of a discussion on their petition ? The ing to the system was by no means evident. The
Right Hon. Secretary might have some personal ma- Right Hon. 'Secretary seemed to think that it could
sons for wishing to avoid a discussion. As he had not be disputed, that the majority had a right to im-
always, from his first outset in political life, been a pose disabilities upon the minority. This was a doc-
declared friend to the Catholic claims, it was now a trine he could by no means subscribe to, andhe thought
matter of some curiosity to see how he could resist there could be no such right, except in cases of great
this motions without forfeiting all claims to consis- and imminent danger ; and no such imminent danger
tency in political conduct. He was, however, a lit- could be urged at present in removing the disabilities
tae surprised at the Right Hon. Gentleman talking on the Catholics of Ireland. If there were great dis-
now of the vox populi upon this occasion, as if he really contents in Ireland, it should be an important object
believe I it was always tantamont to the vox Dei. to Government to take care that their discontents
The Right Hon. Secretary had paid the highest come should not ripen into serious disaffection.
mendations to the temper and moderation with which Mr. MAURICE FITZGERALD feared that it
the Righs Hon. Gentleman brought forward the mea would be considered.a waste of time for him to enter
sure. It N't•as certainly very proper in the Right Ho- fully into the question, when no shadow of argument
nourable Gentleman who brought forward the mea- had been adduced on the other side. He should,
sure to urge his claim in the most conciliatory man- however, fear that it would be considered by many as
ner, but it did not follow that every member who a desertion of his duty to his country, if he were not to
rase to speak upon the question submitted to them express his sentiments on a matter so much connected
should follow the same line. He, for his part, thought with its happiness and its security. The Right Hon.
little could be done in that House on the present occa- Secretary had been obliged to admire the talents of
siou by conciliation; but he thought it possible that his Right Hon. Friend r, Grattan), and had
something might be done by inflicting on apostasy the praised the manner in whic(Mh be had brought forward
shame and reproachthatit merited. By so doing, certain this business, but notwithstanding his admiration, he
characters would be hung in terrorem as an example found it prudent not to attempt answering his argue
to others. But the Right Honourable Secretary had ments, but chose to make out his speech by anticipa.
said, that his Right Honourable Friend would cer- ting what other Gentlemen might say. He did not
tainly not wish to have the measure wrung from an I want the advice of the Right Hon. Secretary to know,
unwilling Parliament. Certainly not ; it was the wish that it was prudent and proper to abstain from irrita-
of his Right Honourable Friend to make the Parlia- I ting language upon the present occasion. He knew
meat a willing one. The Right Honourable Secre- that this great cause must finally succeed, and that it
tare had also stated, that this question had gained no I could only be injured by violence and intemperance. If
accession of strength since it was last brought for- hc was forced to go into any thing of an historical re-
ward ; but it appeared to him that the question had view of past times, it was merely because the CathOs
gained a very material accession of strength. It I lics of Ireland still continued to be abused and csdunz-
was a question that was perpetually changing with : niated. He was as anxious for a full discussion as
the changing state of the world, and by he great the Right Honourable Secretary was to avoid that
progress of public opinion and public information.— discussion. He wished to know the sentiments and
The cause was gaining additional strength every, the grounds upon which the different Members who
hour, and there could be no doubt but that it would meant to resist the motion meant to support their op-
finally prevail. The fact was, that, at the first dis- position. If they were to persevere in a mysllterwho
ious
cussion of the question, the public in general were en- ; silence, he might n that a
tircly ignorant of the nature of the subject. This meant to oppose it considered it entirely with the
ignorance was, however, diminishing from day to day, Right Honourable Secretary, and had not a single
and would probably be soon removed. He had no objection to offer to the measure, but only on the
desire to go into a general consideration of the ques. policy of adopting it now. instead of at a future time.
tion, after the very able and luminous speech of the If this was really the sentiment of all the Gentlemen
Right Honourable Gentleman who had opened it; but ' who meant to vote against it, it would be very well,
he must say, that when it was considered that four and might do much good to have it known that
millions of people were in Ireland in the state des- I there no longer existed any serious objection to the
cribed by the petitioners, he considered that such a , measure itself. Ireland had as yet felt none of, those
body, in their present state, were like a great, heavy, ' blessings in which this country prided itself. The
and indigestible mass lying on the stomach of the glorious Re don ion which was
had such a
only fe
with this mass ? Do you mean to persevere in en- in Ireland as one of the severe inflictions of Providence
deavouring to wear down this body of Catholicism upon that unfortunate country. As to the Union,
by the severity of Statutes and penal laws ? If that ! whatever advantages it brought to this country, no
were the course Ministers intended to persevere in, ' Irishman could have supported it from anyotherhonest
they could expect but little fruit from it.
forky had principle, except
.from the idea that measures would
only to consider the effect of this system the last have been. taken. in
.the Imperial Parliament to allay
century. Itoad r
ho at all increased the proportion of the dissatisfaction. in Ireland, and to give it peace
Protestants to Catlics. They might, therefore, go and security. This was an idea which was encoura-
back to the Rule of Three, and calculate in what god by Mr. Pitt, who Fad much too great a mind to
length of time these penal laws would destroy the Ca- stoop to the pitiful artifice of holding out such a hope,
tholic religion. Instead of being at all weakened if he had not expected that it would leave been realized.
or dissolved by the measures hitherto taken, it No Irishmao expected that they would derive either
had, on the contrary, been fixed, confirmed, and extension of commerce or refinement of manners, or
hardened. It seemed that Government, during all any other advantage from the Union with England,
that time, mistook the menstruum which was to do except, as Mr. Pbeindltaangdetrooludsthtrdi,scousths
iant measures,
paurarett
away Catholicism. If, then, they were to persevere width it would
might
.be safely discussed and conceded
in the same measures, there could be no hope that Legislature,
Ireland would ever be any thing hot what it is at pre- in the United Parliament." Unless this hope had
sent. There was a certain portion of the community been held out, the mass of the population of Ireland,
that was much afraid of the injuries which our Church the Catholics, could
;nand h. ave been induced to
and State might in time receive from granting support that measure
but was there a man of com- could never have been carried through. The cases in
the present peutiou ;

tire ihictedt histilty of Ole minify
VASA to the present situation of
plesef the Revolution had nothing
penal laws avid di'sabili del; and
shoidd ham riaranteed Ireland
formation in dug country had sir
by any positive laws, but had taken
part of the people before the Soy
Queen Elizabeth, although she •
who aimed at her throne, and
France and the Catholics at 17
diligent pains to distinguish
from those whose only difference
nions. In the reign of Charles •
laws were framed, to protect t
political principles of the 1.):
James the Second), and who
ported by a Cabinet of Catholic
a state of things totally different
existed. In the reign of Que
of Ireland were in a state of
yet it was then, and without
necessity, that those laws were
tholics, in wanton and notorious
of Limerick, which had been
—The Houonrabla Member
torical view of the situation
century, in which he shewed
penal laws upon the populat
land were embodied and cony
efforts of France would be
desperate. But it was doing
testants to array them against tl
and tell them, in case of invasit
they should hail as friends the'
He adverted to the per,od wb
formed ; at a time when the
his power invincible; and
danger had passed away, si
it should not be continued.
Lord CASTLER.EAG:
tion to occupy at much lent,
but he could not refrain from s.
on his part should be construed
to the Right Hon. Gentlemr
tition, or to the Petitioners
however, say, that on pub]:
precated the present discs
tending, in the present state
and irritate the public min(
be taken to appease it, an,
might expect. It was high,
to make a question at such
Catholics were depressed,
nests of that Constitution
duty to defend? Since, ho‘
come on, he perfectly agreed
able Gentleman who so
opened the debate, that it
temper and moderation.
Mr. Pitt's ideas on this sees
with the conduct of the
when out of power, so
disturbance by this questis.
compromised and abandoned
interest, but their own.
he referred them to the
of Bedford in Ireland,
lics was constantly, " This
your wishes ; direct all
only ; do not now press
mature, and will only in*
guage and some hopes .
claims were pressed upon
was tffeir conduct ? Why
:Won principles altogether.
own contemptuous little
up in their support ! It
disinterested patriots should
cant an abject as the retent
laugh). No* what was
ways acting upon stead:
( Loud cheers from the
stretched their exertion:
they abdicated their sit
thought any further disci
only be to its prejudice,
deprecate it. There
held out by that Government
they had always denied
tholics had any claim
Gentleman opposite had
tation of this question
and of the public mind
and the danger perpetuall
ask, was not the danger
tion great enough to call
indeed the present was •
magnitude ? Was not'
ficient to call for every I.
a protection ? What exl
gross inconsistency ?
much the treatment who
met, from a Right HI
Windham), who had
natural horror of recrimii
suddest fell into a total
pathy, and loaded his
figure during the entire
nourable Gentleman,
own case before he
look at home before he
was, as he had before
such as himself and his
be so treated, by those
sistent—he- had set his
this measure before,
without any hopes of
ciple he should oppose
Mr. WINDHAM,
when he alluded to
wished to be understood
think a former decisic
vent its present discus
Lord H. PETTY

wish of. the Right Hono'
side (Mr. Canning),
cussed with that tem)
it had been introduceu.
plied with in the quarter
would leave the Her
justify it to himself
any notice whatever,
wished to conciliate
very.extraordinary
sileat whe' ;her prod

. ,
....
mintfy were b 7 no Means
don of things: The princis
nothing Cc/ derwith severe
and the treaty of Limerick'
land against theni. The te-
nd not been brought about
d taken possession of a great
e Sovereign joined In it..,..15
the was resisted by a rilril
tnd was supported both bt
it home, yet took always
iish her political enemies
erence was in religions opi-
arles the Second, the penal
ect the country against the .
Duke of York (afterwards
so was surrounded and sup-
holic Ministers. This was
ferent froth that which now
Queen Anne, the Catholics
of perfect tranquillity, and
out the smallest degree of
were imposed upon the Ca-
orious violation of the treaty
seen signed by William 111.
tier here took a very full his.
tion of Ireland for the last
red the great pressure of the
ulatlon of Ireland. If Ire-
conciliated, then, indeed, the
le ineffectual, and her cause i
doing injustice to the Pro-
ainst their Catholic brethren,
invasion, that the men whom
Is they must fear as enemies.
I when those penal laws were
he Pope was flourishing, and
d now when this formidable
r, surely the consequences of
d.
.GH said it was not his inten-
length the time of the House;
from rising, lest a silent vote
nstrued into disrespect, either
.leman who presented the Pe-
men themselves. He must,
üblic grounds he strongly de-
scussion of this questic n, as
:ate of the country, to inflame
ind, when every means should
and prepare it for the trial it
ighly impolitic and indecorous
uch a crisis, whether the In It
11, or participators in the he-
m which it was their imperious
, however, the discussion had
'greed with the Right Honour-
so powerfully and eloquently
t it should be discussed with
n. He here took a view of
subject, and contrasted them
se opposition, who, although
so ready to agitate and create
iuestion, yet, when in power,
indoned it, not for the public
. if they wanted an example,
he administration of the Duke
I, when the cry to the Catho-
This is not a fit time to forward
LI your force against the enemy
ess, your claims ; you are pre-
r incense." Yet after such lan-
pes
held out when the Catholic
upon the late Ministry, what
Why, they deserted their oppe-
ther, and even abandoned their
tle Bill, which they had patched .
It was strange too that such ..
should abandon it for so insigni.
retention of their places ! (A
vas the course of his friends, al-
ady and consistent principles.—
ie Opposition). They in power
ions to the utmost, and when
situations, they declared th:y
discussion of this measure would
lice, and of course they would
e was no specific pledge e.rt.r
overnment to the Catholics. No,
(lied that constitutionally the Ca-
irn whatever. An Honourable
had stated as a reason for the agi-
In now, that the state of affairs
had was perpetually fluctuating,
etually increasing ; but he would t
tiger during the late Administra-
i call for conciliatory measures, if
ras really considered one of such \.,
sot the exigency in those days suf.
my guard which could be supposed
.t excuse could be offered for such ,
3 He admired, however, very
which his HonOurable Friend had
Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr.
ad ever, before to-night, a strong
recrimination, and who all on a
:otal oblivion of his favourite anti-
his
Hon. Friend with this odious
ntire of his reply. The Right Ho-
in, however, ought to consider his
tie attacked others ; he ought to
ehe threw stones—(a laugh.) It
we said, very hard that steady men
i his friends (a loud laaglr) should •
hose who were themselves so incon.
his face against the discussion of
e, as tending to create a ferment
of success, and on the same prier
pose it now.
kM, in explanation, stated, that
to the change of public opinion, he
stood as declarir!s that he did not
cision on this subject ought to pre- •
scussion.
TY was disposed to concur with the
Honourable Gentleman on the other
g), that this question should be dis-
temper and moderation with which
uced. How that wish had been cont.
quarter from which it proceeded, he
House to judge. But he could not
elf to pass this matter over without
ever. It the. Gentlemen opposite
ate the population of Ireland, it was
nary way to gain their object to sit
preferred their claim* Whether that r