The Sun.
London, England, 1842-06-25 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, JUNE 25, 1842.

Zlx,ele PQilt,had often been beforethe House, he wished
16- vrtly he should vote with the Government
Inl that motion. lie thought it more expedient
that
et the 'Bill should be but one Bill, as it would
len come better befere the public. They could monte
or alter it in_ Committee, and they would have a more
unanimous rote against the third reading-.
Mr. FIELDEN expressed his determination to oppose
fur in every stage. They were sent to that !louse
it. the perpOse ur opposing it, What he wished was,
to dispense with the Connnissioners, and to make the
measure what it ought to be.
4. Sir U. W. B.A.IIIiON would vote sgainst the proposi-
tion of the Hon. Member for linaresborengli, because he
was morally convinced that the Poor Law Bill, when
prtiTerly eonsidered, would be tumid to be one
the greatest benefits ever conferred by that
use on the people of this country. N(.3 'Measure
t%er yet broUght forward conferred so inue'a advantage
both Oil rich and poor. On the prier, oceans° it would
give them independent. feelings, a^.,l teach them to rely
ta their own resources.—(llear, hear.) On the rich
eeause it Wfl.4. impossible that matters could go
the
in the same, state they were for '25 years before
e,-,:el'asaing of ehe New Poor-law Act without a total
j --"ention of the property of the country, rind the pass-
pilag au egrarian law. But he was glad Hon. Gentle-
-lihe,ePposite redeemed the pledges they gave on the
hustings reepecting the Poor-law, through the disgrace-
ful
ttglteition of which many of them obtained their
etsS. But were the gentlemen on the front bench free
t;=' that agitation ? They did not, it was true, par-
eiltPate in it, but they permitted it by their silence—
,llat's hear)—while their friends and supporters
th'i journals were proclaiming eternal war On
Whigs who introduced the Poor-law.--
,of r.) They obtained their majority by means
egitation against the Poor-law, the Corn-law and the
ee-.Z, trade principles of the Whigs. They talked tarts ag-
,-„.°ll,_iteelreland.—(Cheers and laughter.) But the py
et)rfr,„°°7(= obtained their majority by agitation on the
iaw•—(Cries of " Question.") They obtained it
ltgdation on the Poor-aw. That was fee question.
ve felt it his duty to tell Hon. Members opposite what
mas,tho`feeling of the people of England. Let them look
vetrne Tinies,•the Morning Post, and the Herald ; those
Althen some of the supporters of the Goverment.—
tot ugh he supported the Poor-law itself, he could
support that dereliction from principle by which Hon.
Anthers eppesite had been brought into power.
f GIIIMSDITCH said it would have been better
or lie lion. Gentleman who had just sat down to have
IhserZved his warmth fur some subject connected with
lie7Ztl.---(Loud cries of " Hear, healer from Sir 11.
th • .L'i`rrfln.) His only object appeared to be to have a
wtit'W at the Riht Hon.' Gentleman below (Sir R. Peel).
sisttheresPect to the motion, lie could see no advantage
u ,could bederived from acceding to it, and as lie was
te_-thug to offer any factious obstruction to the passing
Voor-law, lie could not give it his support.
eleroheral ' JOHNSTONE said,.instead of dividing the
pitsa• into two part-s,' he thought the best plan would be
joa a temporary miessure. Ile thought it would be
bible to go through all the clauses.
ha:,,,t • LAWSON said as his proposal did not appear to
pe,44.w, WI the concurrence of the House, he would not
_it eoa division.
ine motion was then withdrawn.
dee DUNCOMBE then rose to move-4' That, coh:,i-
-ch,..23 the distressed state of the commercial and industrious
74.3 of this country, together with the advanced period of the
and the present state of public business, coupled with
Litelaisain,tg month, that
othe. Poor-law Commission expires on the 31st of
i
h, it is the opinion of this House, that there is
tiop s'lfficient time to enable Parliament to give that atten-
the -att.. ,4 deliberation to the important changes in the la.is for
4,4tArlitinistration of relief to the poor which the measure
elle fenced by her Majesty's Ministers imperatively demands;
oft
fat it would therefore be more expedient, that measures
irteobjne,P°rarY character should be adopted, to meet any
ihg: "lenee which the expiring provisions of exist-
:rc4w.s for the relief of the poor may be deemed
he tallte." In submitting his motion to the I-louse,
thotiihcn't actuated by any factious motive, though he
eeteein ,that faction, when every thing else had failed, was an
et, the fi7 useful resource. His object in submitting his motion
about fi el4e was merely to save time. The House had only
tekteli. te weeks to deliberate upon this important mea-ure,
tureen Zo,tairied sixty-two cle.uses ; besides this there were be-
keed that and fifty notices standing on the paper. He pre-
soenee.Se t was the ir,tention to allow the House of Lords
shoulTolo to discuss the measure and the least time which they
Were lailiew them was a fortnight or three weeks. If that time ,41.10:1:ah;_oowdeudeeato., taesete other House, the House of Commons
sta, • .'"Xe °oh' three weeks to discuss the measure. The Bill
year in the month of February, and the
Aptjj. 9t"lng been occupied in discussing it until the sth of
i seri
e preset,' - • s
po t oned on account of public business until
•E Session. After the anouncements which
_had been
it j, Pef a determination to oppose the-Bill, he thought
or 'Prissible th it could go through Committed,
e the termination of the Commission. It rested entirely
te'll the Opposition, whether the Bill should pass or not; and
14 Pet it to the Government, whether it would be worth while
et Ptsiceed. The object of his motion was to induce the Go-
litiont to continue the Commission for a short period.
tt,°eßh he did not think the Commission at all necessary, he
le7ltht there could be no difficulty in continuing it for one
etysi.lnriger. Now, what was the actual state of public bogie
Zt• There were seventeen orders on the paper to-day. Last
gt the Right Hors. Baronet introduced three Bills, one of
1.167/1 was upon the important subject of prison disci-
e4l7; What had become of the other measures
- had been announced in the Queen's Speech—
.for the amendment of the Bankruptcy Court,
theeitill for the amendment of, the Ecclesiastical Courts ?
%.-latter Bill, it appeared, was to be brought in and thrown
SlZth, table. '1 hey had, indeed been told that there was a
the,
greater importance than that of registration; that
ei•Y which had taken place in Ireland was unparalleled.
tatk;red, however, that the Bill. with respect to Ire-
attex,:;,te be postponed. He could not understand why the
~,-"`ettli4tem be introduced at an early period of the Session,
rant jo;'.ll4ations the Noble Lord had made as to its pare-
olee.,tertance. W hat was proposed by the Poor-law bill?
13liteGV,'"eontinuance of the Commission, but the abolition
eotitin-ue't Corporations—the setting aside of all local Acts, and
Veit ,„, ante of the proxy system of voting. It also established
Zateise; et. those itieerant nuisances, the Assistant-Poor-law
fiv Ilasser,ters, Was it possible to believe that this Bill coal
passes tip e'!"•eugh the House in three weeks? Were they to
discussion the estimates that still remained to be
..111•,ere t:t.tho eight or nine hundred. thousand pounds that
4714raatee"v aeerupriated to the China war, to the Canadian
fed Were all these public questions to he set aside,
`lstitui,ehjettionable Bill to be proceeded with? The pub-
Zneht war; tint in a fit state to receive this Bill as it was at
iira„ eer essed on them. The opinion of every ninetyenine
lifet'l a hundred out of that House, was against the
Zethe„ ",at was the opinion with regard to the Bill expressed
zultoneeldion he had presented to the House, signed by three
-eleef the people? They stated that in England, Ireland.
stit-", and Wales, thousands of people were dying of actual
wreense,d that they looked with the greatest alarm on the de-
ttion
uPPervir,.." the Government to continue the Poor-law Bill
47- *He should not now go further into the merits
11"14,,tits of the Bill; he hoped the House would agree to
eed oat,
abd
1k:41 t
vilieostpt3n the discussion of the measure till an
next °d cif e session. This would conciliate the
• h,"l the people; but any a'tempt to push the measure
'watt,- was assured, would only end in defeat and disap-
ett,
rlt.o thWe
IIAeLLA. CE perfectly agreed with the Hon. Member
tee,tif eesstty of postpor.ing the present measure, end he
-aease utther that if it were persevered in, the time of the
'stress orh
' *hi ought to be devoted to the consideration of the
4eadth 6: the working classes throughout the length arid
put the land, cou'ld not be applied to that eurpo.,e.
it ee5
ie:fethe country to which he belonged the distress was
naily deeper and more gloomy ; nor was there aay
Rd `41,," of improvement in trade ; it seemed as if more
04.4.,,f Hof the people were being made destitute for the
;'`eh' loid'ligeyment and wages. The. Right Hon. Baronet
eveoj,,`"re that he could. not give him.(Mr. Wallace)
elle, • 1 to bring this important subject before the
,te 1)ow tndividual Members were now deprived of
ll:esdae:er of bringing such motions before the House.
Pers‘uad been given up for public business, until their
shoe sham
eteasures should have been disposed of. No sooner
sealineeeea Measures over, than the Right Hon. Baronet had
stride ',that for the remainder of the session the Tuesdays
,ii.'"tititt.tmedeinted to public business. Her Majesty's late
;1414Z had immediately acceded to the proposition, thus
th t'ego ear that the two great parties' did-hot wish to en-
euet the discussion on the motions of individual Members—
oaderlY Were desirous that public business only should be
‘17.4t They.had now
.what he called a Poor-law Parlia-
el be ln Fang William-street, who were distributing
Peeittite.e, destitute in England and Scotland. He had en-
-I.2ett to discover by what authority these gentlemen re-
t4ll. 7, :and also upon what principle they distributed.
Were had been unable to discover either. He believed
bile ii:,aetuatedby sentiments of humanity, but still the
eii`t a right to know under what authority they col-
eerie Ike tneney, and upon what principle they distributed it.
inkte ` shut out from bringing on a discussion on the gene-
-47 of the country, he would avail himself of the rules of
;TIP, ,01/3e order to force it on. He would move order after
if k 44 to prevent the public business being carried on,
teetit had
Six Members would stand by him, he would go
iteLPeop ,e nad forged Parliament to attend to the distresses of
rids He believed the Parliament ought to interfere be-
ieeeet-e People and starvation. If the people were to be
1,41te Itevte starve, let the Parliament say so. And if there
1114:344,,1•0e from which they could be relieved, let the
say so In this country, it was said, they had a
t1,,2,,,14.3• ", that provided for the distressed poet-. Did it do so,
c"a 0444? In his country they had no such law, and the
t.tliarnent would have been better occupied in peo-
nal oor-law for Scotland, than in amending the Poor-
41and. He should support the motion of his Hon.
It the butt adopt the course to which he alluded with regard
-I,ltthe„.7llllsS of the House, if ho was supported by any Hon.
hee°it Jittpe
;pose et,,, eeS GRAHAM requested the attention of the
eof very few moments. He found no reason to corn-
-144--sefeyalaeetoootion which they were then discussing ; and so
"Ifee--" lonsinering it a factious motion, he looked upon it as
Atli 494 foalth ne.
!ie thought it fairly rsised' a most important
by e deliberate attention of the House. He hoped
hAnrityi which would
that if the motion were negatived by.
--uses would leave no doubt as to the opinions of
jjels G„, ""nse gentlemen who were opposed to her Ma-
_erement en the question would, es was usual in all de-
;Let hita
,!_es:mblies, feel themselves bound by such a decision.
hjsuefrevred to call the attention of the House to what
tenee,...*l:loe• Geriflseraupatian_tande msantetclattheanwausndmereactortearbaltaionto.
lbortallboor-la "Ira"
"e • inh that House upon such a subject as
ee or wt.' Be (Sir James Graham) admitted the im-
.nat object; but he felt that such a consideration
Are tatree'd_
.to others of a still higher importance.
big the wi?,fle,d be more deeply impressed than he was
eOtietr :nil spread distress among the working classes in
he, while he made that admission most unequivo-
ir pewiti..._l_ that the question of the administration of relief to
- It ww_aa, at this moment environed with peculiar difficul-
cee the,e7,..theire.fore, his duty to consider carefully in what
,ateteottehltieu ties could be met most safely and most ad-
ltter„ Inci the public. He had some experience in the
Brineitted the existing distress, that there were in
:•tt.1411:11,,,111‘"444d tiri-e*srt;el:V:
as 1,200,000 persons now receiving relief from
Hear, hear.) There was riot the slightest
.hthaergeex,t,efilt of the evil. Ile was speaking
ld painful duty. They were a deli
tetray---the great council of the nation, and he
rust if Le did not speak to them frankly. lie
`` saltl2Mlntly that the distress was wide-spread. He had
„ re m tho receipt of parish relief. He
d,70 ssersons we • •
hid' e,.213411 hew should th,s difficulty best be met. He
sl eplarrl
to
long periods-of distress, uninfluenced by
He an that exorcised by the. Poor-law Commis-
"ii72%Mbtd experience of the contrary—of control
t(4 then ; e..e,
tie advising the Crown, he should
let e and,
of the present. moment were only
‘lll alfelY met,
loos m the adMlnllgratloll of relief,
`se 7.511ee.... tilt) Poor-ls.w ;.:4111Iiiiionell in powers
• •

such as he asked to be extended td them by this Bill. He de-
rrecated a!togete.cr the 'hurt continuant c of !his power 001)
for n single year. He was convinced that the Commissioner:

could only encounter the Pifficultirs to be nvercome on th-s
subject by the marked countenance of the Legislature. He
wo.s convinced that the continuance of the Commission for only
12 months, would mark a want of decision in the Legislature
with respect to the measure itself, and evince distrust in the
persons in whom they ought to confide. It was his conviction
that, so curtailed in power and so brianded with want of confi-
dence, the Commissioners could not, with advantage to the
public, manage the ditlieulties they had to deal with. On the
other hand by 'extending their power for the term proposed in
that Bill, Ititi Commissioners would be enabled to deal with
the thliculties of the present moment. The Hon. Gentleman
Mkt) had just sat down had said that out of doors, there was a
Mrong feeling against the continuance of the Commission,
and that the Commissioners were itinerant nuisances. Now,
as for the charge of their being itinerant nuisances, he must
say the House via.: aware of the extent to which distress existed
in the manufacturing districts, but in none was the dhtress felt
more severely than in the district around Burnley. lie had
stated on a former occasion that the Government and Poor-law
Commissioners, viewing the peculiar distreas of that district, had
sent down an Assistant Commissioner, of prat: ical experience and
knowledge, to visit that district, and regulate the administration of
relief to the poor. From great mismanagement, the admini-
stration of relief there was involved in great confusion. Sir J.
Walsham, from his experience in the northern counties, was
thought the fittest person to superint,nd the administration of
relief, and lie was accordingly sent down. Instead of his being
considered an itinerant nuisance, his mission, which was of
temporary duration, lasting only for one month, was attended
with the resteratien of order, where confusion had previously
existed. lie had placed the distribution of relief to the poor
upon such an improved footing, that, upon his withdrawal, a
wish was generally expressed that some similar superintendence
should be dontinued to be exerci,ed in the district. Under
these circumstances, it was hard that gentlemen who were exe-
cuting a painful duty, should be exposed to such charges, espe-
cially when they had not an opportunity ofexplaining.—( Hear,
hear.) He would again repeat, that he believed the continu-
ance of the central control was indispensable for five years;
and he entreated and implored the House, under those eircum-
ttances, not to throw into irretrievable confusion the machinery
by which so great a number of persons were relieved.
lie therefore entreated the House not to decide the question on
a single motion. If the House agreed with him upon the ne-
cessity of maintaining the Commission, he asked them by a
decisive majority to negative the motion. Having done that,
they would proceed to commit the Bill, and the first clause
would raise the question of the continuance of the Commission;
and when that was once decided, the remaining claures were all
twit igations of the pre,ent system, except the 6th, which referred
)to the abolition of the Gilbert Unions. Upon all those points
he was quite prepared to enter upon the discussion of them in
the most amicalye and conciliatory spirit, and to conciliate the
support of those who interested themselves in favour of the
pier, whose welfare he was sincerely and deeply dusirous to
promote.—( Loud cheers.) But he did not think he would be
acting with kindness towards the poor, or doin4 his duty. if he
consented to forego any opportunity of pressing on the Legisla-
ture the paramount importance of the renewal of the Poor-law
Commission not for one, but fur fine years.—( Cheers. )
Mr. HUME said that. when the Right lion. Gentleman told
them that there were 1,200 000 receiving relief from parochial
funds, and probably half that number who could not obtain it,
a frightful picture was exhibited before them.—( Hear' hear. )
For himself he had always supported the Bill and the Central
Commission as a measure essential to the well-being of the
country, because of its tendency to promote a spirit of inde-
pendence, and habits of economy and prudence amongst the
labouring classes.—( Hear, hear.) But after the trial they hail
of the working of the Bill, he did not think they treated the
working classes as they ought.—(Hear.) He thought they
might continue the Commission for one year or for two, and
commence early next session with the general Bill A docu-
ment was laid upon the table of the House—the Report of Mr.
Mott upon the Keightley Union—(" Hear, hear," from Mr.
Ferrand)—to which he entreated the attention of Hon. Gen -
tlernm.—( Hear, hear.) He did not believe that such a state
of things as was described in that Report ought to be suffered
to continue, and an inquiry ought to be instituted into the facts.
Ir.FE RR AND-1 hey are not true.—( Cries of " Order.")
Mr. HUME—The Hon. Gentleman says they are not true ;
but I believe the Commissioner rather than the Hon. Member.
—( Loud cheers.) He (Mr. Hume) heard the Hon. Member
make assertions which he did not support.—( Hear, hear.)
Here was an officer making a Report in execution of his duty,
arid could he ( Mr. Hume) doubt that Report ?—( Hear, hear. )
The Hon. Member would, therefore, excuse him, considering
the interruption, for making the answer he did.—( Loud cries
of " Oh, oh," and " Hear, hear, hear.") It was the first vote
be ever gave against the Poor-law Commission, but when he
saw the misery and destitution of the country, what could he
do ? ( Hear, )iear. ) If the Hon. Baronet wished to remove
the distress of the people let him remove the barriers of the
importation of their food.----Oh, oh ) They might depend
upon it the time would come wlien they would be obliged to do
that without favour which they now refused. He had also a
greater objection, which was that when they did open their
ports it might be too late. In consequence of our rejecting
the corn of other countries, they were led to adopt measures
against us which might render them ultimately independent
altogether. He should oppose the five years period of duration ;
he had not altered his opinion as to the principles of the Pill,
but he mistrusted its correctness. He would tell them that they
never would be able to maintain the Poor-laws and the Corn-
laws together. There would soon be only two classes of persons
in the country, the very rich and the very poor, and he would
like to know what advantage they would then derive from their
property. The prospects of the country had never been so
gloomy as they were at present ; and there was no probability
of a termination to the sufferings of the people unless they es-
established free trade in provisions. Away with charity. He
wished to see the population of England assume a manly form,
instead of requiring to be supported by begging letters. They
might depend upon it that the rich as well as the poor Would
ultimately. feel the distress. He called upon them in this crate
of circumstances to deal out to others that justice which they
would have dealt out to themrelves.

Air. LIDDELL said he rose to submit a proposition to the
House which he believed would, if acceded to, remove all the
obstacles to the settlement of this question. The proposition
which he had to make was, that her Majesty's Government, in
consideration of the late period of the session, would consent to
limit the Bill to the first five clauses. By that means the
present law would be continued without compromising any one's
opinions, and they might, in the next session, discuss all the
clauses of the Bill. He thought that was a very fair propo-
sition. His propo■al was, that they should pass a temporary
law, leaving the powers of the Commissioners dependent on the
will of Parliament ; and they might afterwards consider the
whole subject next session. He did not deny that great distress
now prevailed in the manufacturing districts; but he could not
agree with the Hon. Member for Montrose that a repeal of the
Corn-laws would alleviate the evil. It was well knot-. it that.
there was now little or no corn in the ports of northern Europe,
so that the nostrum of the Hon. Member for Mentrose would
produ -e no beneficial effects for the working classes, while it
would disturb the great arrangements which had lately re-
ceived the sanction of the Legislature.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL said it was for the Government to
consider what. course they would adopt with regard to the pro-
position of the Hon. Gentleman. Perhaps the most convenient
course would be for the House to consider thefirst five clauses,
and then V...ey would see what work was before them, and be
able to see if the House would be disposed to agree to the
remainder of the clauses. That, however, was a subject for the
Right Hon. Gentleman to consider and to determine on.
What he thought it essential that they should not do, was, that
they should not merely renew the power of the Commissioners
for a single year—such a course would tend to weaken
the authority of the Commissioners. If the House in-
tended to support the Poor.law he hoped the House
would agree to the clauses, and give the time proposed by the
Bill, in order to give the Commissioners the authority neces-
sary fur the due execution of their duty. He would say no-
thing with regard to the proposition of the Hon. Gentleman,
but he must give his opinion against the advice of the Hon.
Member for Montrose, who said that they ought not to con-
tinue the authority of the Poor-law Commissioners. bnause he
differed in opinion with the Government on the subject of the
Corn-laws. He was sorry that the Hon. Member for Mont-
rose had introduced the question of the Corn-laws into the
discussion, and he regretted still more that. the Hon. Gentle •
matt opposite should have followed the example. He disagreed
with the Hon. Gentleman opposite ; and certainly the speech
of the Hon. Gentleman held out great temptation to reply ; he,
however, would not yield to the temptation, but he could not
agree, that because they had a system of Corn-laws, of which
they did not approve, that therefore they should have a bad
system of Poor-laws. He believed that if they had a good
system of Corn-laws there would be fewer persons requiring
relief; but he could not agree that because they had a system
of Corn-laws of which he did not approve that therefore they
were to have a system of Poor-law relief calculated to foster im-
prudence, and to give the labourer relief in the worst possible
manner, by giving it in aid of wages. He thought no system
of Corn-laws could make it expedient for the House to have a
bad system of Poor-loss's. He admitted thit any system of poor-
laws would be rendered more difficult of administration on ac-
count of the distressed state of the country; but if they thought
the present system of Poor-laws the best that under existing
circumstancescould be adopted, they ought to support the mea-
sure. He should, therefore, oppose the motion of his Hon.
Friend, and after the Bill' had passed through Committee the
House would be able to see if there would be time during the
short period the session was likely to last to consider the clauses
which did not at proent form part of the Bill.
Colonel WOOD should vote for the five first clauses
as they stood, but he should wish the Act to be discussed next
Session, and that the relief should be fixed by the Act, and not
left to the Poor-law Commissioners.

....... .. e
Mr. FERRAND rose for the purpose of informing the
House that he believed the Poor-law Commissioners, as well
as the Assistant Commissioners, were thoroughly prepared to
vote black was white if they could only put the public money in
their pockets. He also rose for the purpose of defending him-
self as a member and chairman iif the Keightley Board of
Guardians, and he hoped he should do so to the satisfaction of
the House, wet prove that the Report laid on the table by a
paid (act r of the Government, was a most false and scandalous
Report.—( Hear, heYr.) He was not going upon rumour, like
the lion. Member for Bath.—( Hear, hear.) Ile should bring
forward the evidence of Sir J. Wa!sham. He was there to
speak the truth, and he cared not who he might offend
by it. The Government of the country were indebted to the
deep-rooted hatred which the poor people had for the Poor-law
for its majority in that House.—( Hear, hear. ) What hurled
the Whigs from power? The fact of standing by the
New Poor-law. The opposing that law had given the
Conservative candidates of the North of England their
majority, arid he was there fearlessly to do his duty. (He
then proceeded to read the extracts from Mr. Mott's Report,
accusing the Board of Guardians of violating the instructions
of the Commissioners. ) Mr. Mott, himself, said the Board
of Guardians were acting in opposition to the crders of So-
merset House. He found that Sir John Walaham, in his Re-
port, by way of introduction to the Report of Mr. Mott, stated
that the Settle poor had more than doubled since February,
1837. It would be in the recollection of the House that in a
speech which he had made a short time ago, he took upon him-
self to defend the chairman of the Board of Guardians in his
own neighbourhood, against the attack of Mr. Mott. It had
been stated by Mr. Mo:t that he had introduced tens of thou-
sands of poor persons from the south of England into the parise
of Bingley. The fact sv..s, that the surplus population of the
comity of Lancashire was caused by thousands of the poor of the
south of England b: ing turned off their parishes and sent to Lan-
eash ire,and this gentleman ern' loyed numbers of them in his mills.
What said Mr. Mott? He begged the attention of the Hon.
Member for Montrose. Ile said the guardians conducted
their business in a very satisfactory mariner. Sir J. Walsh=
said the guardians disposed of their business in a business-like
manner ; but he was not inclined to argue in favour of the
proceedings as regarded a more systematic disposition of out-
door relef. He ( Mr. Eerrand) had only received Mr. Mott's
Report a esterday morning, and lie sent it down immediately
be the last night's post, and he had every reason to believe
that an extraordinary meeting would be held on Monday to
refute the charges brought against the Board of Guardians in
that Report. He (Mr. Ferrand) had given notice of a mo-
tion that evening, for the purpose of obtaining some informa-
tion as to certain proceedings whiei had taken place
within the last ten days in Settle union workhouse.
That was no party question. It was one of life or death—a
question by which was to be decided the paint whether or not
the working classes were to be united in decided hostility to the
in titutions of the country. The people of England wet e not
so forgetful of the principles; of their ancesters, as to render it
necessary that Commissioners should be the dispensers of cha-
rity to their distressed fellow-countrymen. In the month of
July, lai, the Right Hog. Ilexonet the Secretary of Otate

for the Home Department, had made a sreech in which he
seemed to censure the principle of refusing, under all circum-
stances, out-door relief ; bud the Right Hon. Baronet stated
that the law, in that rest ect, had been capriciously applied.
The Right llon. liar met also stated, on that occasion, that
unless the Board of Guardians in Cumberland were to he left
unfettered, he would nut answer for the consequences during
the ensuing winter. Neither, unle,s his board of Guardians
were left unfettered, would he (Mr. Ferrand) be responsible
for the consequences cluing; the coming winter.— (Hear. )
He then read from a speech of Sir R. Peel in 1839, his opinion
as to the propriety of continuing the Poor-law Bill, and the
size of unions. It was public opinion that carried the Right
Hon. Bayonet into power, and if he braved the public opinion
of the North of England, he believed that his Nlinistry would
not last two years. When it was first introduced it was said
that it worked well ; but it worked well by saving the money of
th.• rate-payers, and that was no test of the constitutional prin-
ciple. The whole Conservative press of the North, the oboe
daily press of this Metropolis, and the weekly press through-
out the country, were taking a tone upon this law that must
shake any man, however popular; and if the Right lion.
Baronet pursued his present course, he would give him only
two years to destroy the influence he had acquired. The Right
Hon. Baronet. (the Secretary of State) had attacked him rather
warmly for the exciting Character of his speeches ; but had not
the Right Honourable Baronet himself been a member
of the Reform Ministry, who did all in their power to
influence the people ? The party he belonged to had never
influenced the minds of the people—had never threatened the
House of Peers—they took their stand upon constitutional
principles.—( Sir Robert Peel here rose and quitted the
House.) The Right Hon. Baronet had quitted the House a
minute too soon.--(Laughter.) He could refer to more of
the Right Hon. Baronet's opinions. The New Poor-law
had dried up the springs of charity. It had taught the rich
to forget their duty to the poor. The love of idleness was
natural to man. '1 here was no man who would not live with-
out labour if he could ; and the reproach upon the poorer classes
that they were idle would apply as well to those who crushed
them in the dust.—( Hear, hear.) The Right Honourable
Baronet might find persons to support him in pa,sing
this bad law, although they had broken faith with their consti-
tuent', and foresworn the solemn promises they had made at
the hustings. But a day of reckoning would come, old English
feeling would revive, and when the agitation that commenced
ten pars ago had subsided, the English people would pass a
solemn judgment upon this measure and its promo:ms.
Colonel T. WOOD sail the time had now come, when the
House must decide whether this law was to be continued or
not. He had thought it his duty to examine into the working
of the law, and he had found that it was advantageous to all
parties—to the poor, and to those who supported the poor; and,
above all things, advantageous to the rising generation. He
begged to bear his testimony to the practical good working of
the preseut system.
_ . _ _

Air. S. WORTLEY was not one of those who would offer
any unfair opposition to the Bill, but he certainly should oppose
it, and that decidedly and firmly. On the present occasion, he
should feel it his duty to vote in favour of the motion of the
Hon. Member for Finsbury (Mr. T. Duncombe).
Mr. WA K LEY was surprised to hear the sentiments that
fell from the Hon. and Gallant Member for Middlesex (Col.
Wood). If it hail not been for the support which his Hon.
Friend behind him (Mr. Hume) had given to this law, he
would have been Member for the county of Middlesex. The
Gallant Colonel would share that Hon. Gentleman's fate at the
next election. With rc spect to the conduct of the Right Hon.
Baronet in this matter, he saw the difficulty in which he was
placed in this matter, and he ected like a cautious and a wise
General accordingly. The Right Hon. Baronet thought that
by the yotc the Government gave now they would be guided
hereafter, and he was right ; but he warned the Right Hon
Baronet against concluding that he wculd be able to carry out
thelaw, although he might be hacked by a large majority of that
House. 1 hay had starving thousands, they would soon have
starving millions ; were they prepared to pass this Act of
coercion for the poor—for it was an Act of coercion ?
He asked the Right Honourable Baronet if he thought that
if this law were enforced it would be calculated to ensure the
peace and safety of the country ? He hoped the Right Hon.
Baronet did not think so, for if such was the opinion of the
Right lion. Baronet, then no man had ever formed more in-
correct or erroneous conclusions than the Right Hon. Baronet.
What harm could be done by adopting the motion of his (Mr.
Walley's) Hon. Colleague? He (Mr. Wakley) had been
asked to take advantage of the forms of the House in opposing
this Bill to the last, so that the Commission should die a natural
death at the end of the month, but considering the present
ass ful state of the country, the amount of distress existing and
likely to exist, he now expressed himself ready to yield to the
suggestion of his Hon. Colleague, and to consent to the con-
tinuance of the Commission for another year. He did not con-
sent to this arrangement without unwillingness, but still he
would consent to it. The Right Hon. Baronet had spoken of
a factious opposition. That was not a just remark on the part of
the Right Hun. Baronet. The Government had no need to
complain of the manner in which they had been treated in
that House—( Hear, hear)—they had never experienced any-
thing but a perfectly fair and candid opposition, and on many
occasions the Opposition had given the Government
its support. The question was one of great ra-
tional importance, affecting as it did the safety
and comforts of millions of the poor of this country ; and if it
was in the power of the House to do anything calculated to
conciliate the suffering people, it was their duty to take that
course, instead of carrying out, their own theoretical principles
to the uttermost. He hoped, therefore, that the Right Hon.
Gentleman would take the proposition of his (Mr. IVakley's)
lion. Colleague into his serious consideration. He almost
hoped that they might not divide on the question to-night, in
order that the Right Hon. Gentleman might have twenty-four
hours more for consideration. The Right Hon. Baronet was
little aware of the feeling in the House and of the still stronger
feeling out of doors in regard to this most important subject.—
( Hear, hear.) Allusion had been made to the Report of Mr.
Mott, and although arimiting the statements made by Mr.
Mott to be exactly true, he thought some censure might on
some points attach to the guardians of the Keightley Union ;
yet he saw infinitely more to censure in the spirit in which the
Report had been drawn up than in anything that had been
done by the Board of Guardians. Were they legislating, he
would ask, with an understanding that the destitute poor had
a right to relief ?—(Cheers.) Had the destitute poor a right
to relief ?—( Cheers. )
Mr. ROEBUCK—No.

Mr. WA KLEY—The Hon. and Learned Member for Bath
denied their right. Now he (Mr. Wakley) would say, that
every man who denied that right, however fit he might be to
be a legislator in that. House was unfit to carry out the Poor-
law—( Hear, hear)—because it showed that his mind was so
constructed that he was incapable of carrying it out in a proper
spirit.—( Hear.) Now what did Mr. Commissioner Mott say on
this point. What said this perambulating luminary, who wan-
dered up anti down the country, for the purpose of instructing
Boards of Guardians in their duty of informing Magistrates
how wrong they were in ordering relief—of showing Noble
Lords that they knew nothing of their duties to the poor? The
aristocracy d the kingdom was sinking itself to the lowest state
of degradation and infamy by consenting, in order to effect a
seeming saving of a few pence, to be insulted by the hired tools
of the Government in every union in England. Relief, he said,
was generally confined to the payment of rent to an alarming
extent. This ntight, or might not be true. If true, he (Mr.
Wakley) did not approve of the i ractice. In the Report was
this—" The paupers insolently claim relief as a right." Now
that was the statement of one of the Poor-law Commissioners,
and put upon the table by a Minister of the Crown, the Minister
for the Home Department. A Poor-law Commissioner said
that the paupers insolently demanded relief as a right? Had
they that right under the Act of Elizabeth? For nearly 250 years
they had that right, and did they take that right from them by
the Poor-law Amendment Act?—( Hear.) If not, upon what
principle was it that they acted? If the paupers had no right
to be relieved, too man was accountable for starving them.
(Hear, hear.) If they had no right to relief, who was re-
sponsible in law for starving them ? The paupers insolently
claimed relief as a right I Was that man to be continued in
the Commission? He (Mr. Wakley), for one, if the Poor.
law Commission was to be continued, and the agent cf that
Commission, who had dared to make that statement and submit
it to the House of Commons —said, if there were no other ground
for refusing so continue the Commission for a period of six
yearn, that was sufficient, unless such a man was dismissed.
lie, for one, would offer his unflinching opposition to its con-
tinuance, for he could conceive nothing more monstrous and
unjust--nothing, in fact, more guilty—than for a hired agent
of the Government to dare to say that the poor man had inso-
lently demanded relief as a right. Now, what did he find in
the last part of the Report ? He would read the whole of it :
—" Two Magistrates afterwards attended the meeting of the
Board of Guardians, Messrs. Ellice and Greenwood,
to whom I stated the complaints made." In the
preceding paragraph he stated that the relieving-
officer had been repeatedly summoned for refusing
relief in several cases. In the last paragraph the relieving of-
ficer was stated to complain of being summoned. I f lie with-
held relief was he not to be summoned? He complained of the
grievance, and Mr. Mott seemed to interfere for the purpose of
preventing the Magistrates granting the summons. Now let
them look to this. Could any one conceive a more monstrous
course of proceeding? Mr. Mott said, " two Magistrates at-
tended the meeting of guardians, to whom I stated that com-
plaints had been made by the relieving officer of his being sum-
moned. They said that the clerk had granted summonses, but
they always told the relieving officer that relief rested with the
Board of Guardians." The Magistrates told the relieving
officer, therefore, " You have nothing to fear from ua." This,
too, was in a district where the law was as little understood by
the Magistrates as the guardians. This was the Report that
was laid with so much eclat on the table of the House of Gam-
mons. If there was anything to stamp the Commission with
disgrace it was this. The very parties who carried out this law
were obnoxious to any Poor-law, and their only object was to
get rid of giving relief to the destitute. If the poor man claimed
relief he was called insolent. This stamped, in his (Mr. W.'s)
opinion, more odiously the character of Mr. Mott than anything
which had been thrown out against the Keightley Union. He
could discover nothing which related to the Board of Guardians
so bad as this. Now if that was the spirit in which the law was
carried, out the Right non. Baronet might depend upon it
that the screw might be turned too tight upon a hungry man,
There was more distress in the country at this moment than
any man could imagine. He (Mr. Wakley) was daily in the
habit of meeting tradesmen, farmers, and all classes of persons,
and since he had been in public life he had never heard anything
to equal the statements of the public distress. Every man was
complaining of want of business. There were people travers-
ing the country, seeking employment, willing to wet k at am
wages they would give them. He had himself a small farm
few miles from town, about ten miles from London, at which
there had teen a scene more painful than it was possible to de-
scribe. The poor people came across the country, seeking for
work, without a farthing in their pockets. They had not been
at work in the field half an hour before they asked for money to
buy bread; they were utterly incapable of working without
sustenance as they went on. They slept in the barns and out-
houses, and some of them did not take their clothes off for days
together. But the statement they made was, that they would
rather die than go into a union workhouse.—( Hear,. hear. )
Now he said that they had made by their Poor-law the work-
houses houses of torture. As he had already stated, he had no
desire to go into the general question at that moment, but he
hoped the Right Hon. Baronet would adopt the proposal of his
Hon. Colleague for continuing the Commission one year longer.'
He was exceedingly hostile to the proposition, as he expected
the Commission would have died a natural death next month.
It was a physical impossibility for the Right Hon. Baronet to
get the Bill through by the end of next month, therefore he
hoped he would take the proposition to renew the Commission
for one year. If the country considered that the measure was
a good one and salutary he would express his deep regret, but
he would offer no hostility to the measure. In resuming his
' seat he entreated the Right Hon. Baronet to reflect on the
proposition of his Hon. Colleague. He thought it was one of
the most rational under all the circumstances, and the
most reasonable to submit to the Huse.—( Hear.) He
earnestly implored the Government to reconsider it, and not
adhere to the determination expressed by the Right Hon.
Gentleman ; and he bored that he would in the course of the
evening state his willingness to accede to the proposition.
Mr. COCHRANE said he should not have risen to address
the House if he did not think it incumbent upon him to give a
public explanation of the course he intended to adopt with re-
spect to this Bill. Ile was surprised that lion. Gentlemen
had confined themselves to observations upon certain districts,
and had not entered into the discussion of the question, as it
co n c e rneeedts _ the
onpe peoplee
fi,ns
pgeeendeyral Everypoor-law
ual; bu t should
the
other,
h have
:we ohjnot
the least important, seemed to him to be that relief should be
offered in such a manner as to call forth the generous gratitude
of the poor. It appeared to him that relief of that kind blessed
boar-the giver and the receiver. Now he would grant, for the
sake of argument, that the first condition had been fulfilled lu

. soite of the working of the system of cehtralisation, that;
notwithstanding that the relief had been speedy and effectual ;
but, be would ask, how was it received by the people ? He would
wish to know whether they looked upon the measure as a pro-
tection to them. He really thought that such was not the case.
It appeared to him that the nearer they approached to volun-
tary contributions, the more they relieved the rich, and granted
more relief to the poor. The new system of Poor-laws in
Scotland was under voluntary contributions. The Act of
James VI., in some respect, resembled the Act of Elizabeth ;
yet. notwiths!anding there were assessments, the working
of the system was by voluntary contributions. He took the
liberty of making these few observations ; he would not go fur-
ther into the question, and upon these considerations be should
appsse those clauses which he considered objectionable.
Mr. ROEBUCK, who spoke in so low a tone of voice as
to be scarcely audible, said that the objection to this Poor-
low Bill appeared to him to rise out of party conflict, and not
from its being a dangerous experiment; not because the object
of those who brought it forward was mischievous, or the cir-
cumstances attending it were mischievous, or that the ma-
chinery was altogether improper and wrong, but because the
!tatty, or the Administration who brought that Bill forward,
were ti .e parties opposed to gen:lemen opposite, and therefore
the attempt was to get up a vulgar prejudice against them.
the Administration, he said, at that time—he was not
tete at all inclined to favour or praise it —brought
lot ward its boldest, its wisest, and most humane act, when it
brought. that Bill into the House. lie thought this measure
was a retribution on the gentlemen opposite fur the manner in
wl ish they dealt with the party who brought in this Bill.—
( Hear.) They might say " hear, hear," but he was not to find
molt with the conduct of the Right lion. Baronet; he said
that at the time at which the Bill was brought into that House,
here was a spirit of irritation which had told upon those who
"the
Hn.on A.len
were sitting in the places of those who brought in the Bill. He
asked whether, during the recent election, if that cry was not
a sed,
h? and
Ile more
knewespcia
Baronetber fo opposite,
r K
hor
when called upon, always stated that. this was a humane, a judi-
cious,and statesman-like act of the Administration who brought
it in. He was certain that that was the opinion then in his
mind, and the mind of every well thinking man of the party who
supported him. He knew it was not the opinion of the Hon.
Member lor Knaresborough.—(Laughter.) But he said that
the Right Hon. Baronet had always expressed his determina-
tion of making to the labouring population the declaration he
had ; and he (Mr. Roebuck) only regretted that. that declara-
tion, was rather late. But he was well aware of the feeling that
was prevalent round about and behind; he must have been well
aware of the feeling expressed by !gentlemen opposite ; he
must have been well aware of the vulgar outcry, and it was
only on that genre that he would wish to recal to the recollec-
tion of the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite that it was a seri-
ous arid great lesson for any man in the State holding a respon-
sible situation not to tamper in the least degree with a vital
question like the present. He did not say that the Right Hon.
Gentleman opposite, or those who supported him, refused the
expression of their sentiments when called upon; but what he
complained of was the party behind him who had taken
advantage of that vulgar outcry, and who made use
of it for the purpose of taking power from those
who then possessed it. The retribution was then coming
upon them, arid however insignificant the instrument it had
commenced with the infliction of a two hours"speech that even-
ine.--( Hear, hear, and laughter.) Now he would ask the
House, which was called to the consideration of that subject by
the Hon. Member for Finsbury, what was the principle of
that Bill? He asked them, what then was in it to give rise to
that. furious outcry of destroying a constitutional principle, by
which they were assailed continually on this subject? The
Hon. Member for Finsbury said the poor had a right to be
maintained. Now, he (Mr. Roebuck) was not going to quar-
rel about words, or as to what he meant by the word right,
bet he was about to say this, that the law gave the poor at this
present moment that right. That right was the offspring of the law
—it was regulated by the law for the benefit of the community.
It was for the benefit of the whole community that the poor
and the destitute should be provided for. They were to die.
cover a means by which the destitute should so receive re-
lief that industry should be fostered and idleness put down.
—( Hear, hear.) The aged, under the present law, were
provided for.—( Hear, hear.) And he would defy Hon.
alembers who were thus declaiming upon the matter,—and
he spoke advisedly, knowing, something more of the law,
erhaps, than some Hon. Gentlemen opposite—he would defy
them to say that the aged poor were not provided for by the
law. He wanted them to put their finger upon that part of
the New Poor-law which altered the relief which should be
administered to the aged poor. The aged poor, according to
the provisions of the present law, were provided for, and° the
guardians would receive the approbation of the Commission—
he slid not altogether approve of that Commission--( Hear)--
if they granted relief to the aged poor, out of the workhouse.
—( Hear, hear.) That was the spirit—that was the principle—
An Hole. MEMBER—What is the practice ?
Mr. ROEBUCK—Aye, and the practice.—(Hear, bear.)
He would defy them to show otherwise. They should re-
lieve the poor so as to maintain industrious habits whilst they
did not foster idle ones. The aged poor, who had gone through
the toils of life, could not be accused of idleness, and they were
only fulfilling the laws of nature, by giving them support for
what the, had done. That he did say was the principle of the
New Poor-law. Let them point out to him how, and
where, that was not done. It is a breachof the law if it was
not done, and the great benefit of this law was, that they could
call beiore the public, which they could not do before, each
breach of that great principle.—( Hear.) He wanted to bring
gentlemen to particulars. He denied distinctly, positively,
totally, that there arose out of the New Poor-law any single
enactment which militated against that relief to the aged poor.
Now he wanted proof. Being a lawyer he wanted proof. He
did not want any common vulgar assertion ; he had had so
much of that, that he was sick of it.—(Hear, hear.) Now
comes the great, the difficult problem, which every states-
man—and they were all staternen in their several posi-
tions—must see. How were they to provide for that
great destitution which was liable to fall on certain
classes of our fellow-countrymen ? How in providing for
them, whilst preventing the evils which arose from the want of
the necessaries of life, they should prevent those habits of idle-
ness which were so detrimental to society. An Hon. Member
the other night proposed for that purpose a grant of a million
of money. The Right lion. Baronet very properly said that
that would be impossible, because he, acting as a statesman,
foresaw that if that plan were admitted as a practice once, it
would he followed generally. Therefore, if they enacted a
Ire for the relief of the poor, they must consider what would
be the effect of that law if carried into effect generally. What
were they then to do with the able-bodied poor, who fell
into actual distress. There was a Bill. passed in the reign of
Elizabeth, which arose in the following way :—A great body of
charitable institutions were suddenly suppressed, and a large
number of able-bodied paupers was thrown upon the country.
What was to be. done ? They were to be set to work and pro.
wiled for, not, however, by religious houses, but by the country
generally. Ile was not one who thought highly of the wisdom
of our ancestors. The necessity of the moment created a re
medy, and that remedy was the Act cf Elizabeth. That Act was
for relieving, not the poor, but those who contributed honestly
and fairly to their support. A great many evil consequences
resulted frem it, and it was necessary to amend it. The con-
sequence was, that one of the first acts of the Reformed Par-
liament was to meet that Act boldly in the face, and he (Mr.
Roebuck) was prepared to say, despite any unpopularity which
might attach to him in consequence, that the framers of the
amended Act were entitled to the highest renown, both for the
humanity of the conception and the wisdom of the performance.
Ile did, therefore, hope that those who led public parties on one
side or the other, would not give in to those vulgar opinions
which had been raised against the New Poor-law. —( Hear,
hear.) He was quite sure that those Right Hon. Gentlemen
oppositefelt stronger than he did the great benefits t. be derived
from that legislation. They never raised the cry against that
law ; feeling now pressing on their shoulder the government
of this kingdom, they found it necessary to continue the law. In
this country, he would ask, how they could best provide for the
destitute poor, at the same time not foster the mischievous and
criminal idleness of the man who might live next door to the
industrious one?—( Hear, hear.) How were they to solve that
problem.—( Hear, hear.) It was very easy to coins forward to
talk about the misery in the workhouses.—(Hear.) He knew
nothing more easy. Here was a father of a large family, honest,
industrious, suddenly called away, and thrown out of work.
It was natural to say, in such a case, " We will immediately
relieve him, and give him every support in our power." His
text door neighbour, an idle dissolute vagabond, says, " Aye,
aye, now I see what I'll do."-(A laugh.) Aye, it had been
done ; he took advantage of our nature, and said he would get
the relief intended for the industrious poor, and would lead a
life of idleness and misery. These were things which he (Mr.
Roebuck) never would sanction.—( Hear, hear.) Aye, how
was it to be done? That problem had to be solved. They
were not to meet him with the cry that he was working
against the constitutional privileges of Englishmen. Re-
lief must be given, in .the way that the interests of the
commonly demanded, and they must give relief, because
the interests of the country required it. That was his view,
and he was not to be put out of it. Then he was met by
something from the Hon. Member for Knaresborough, about
the three kings of Somerset House, who, having made a Report
which did not please the Hon. Member, the Hon. Member,
like a wise legislator, said, he should oppose the Bill.—( Hear,
and laughter.) Having determined the mode in which relief
should be administered, the question was, how get to machinery
to enforce its administration best. They found that a Board
of Guardians was liable to certain mischievous influences, and
that was fully demonstrated in 1829 and le3o. it was then
determined that a central power, the term " centralization "
might be gratifying to the ears of Gentlemen opposite—that
they should have a central• power, which should be
uninfluenced by local circumstances, and which should
act independently of party. He (Jr. Roebuck) thought it
would have been better placed in other hands.—(Hear, hear.)
His notion was, that it would have been better placed in.the
hands of the Secretary of State=(Hear, hear)—but was be,
on that ground, to quarrel with the principle itself ? Not at
all ; and he believed that the three gentlemen were by far,the
hest provision which hati,yet been mado for the due adminis-
tration of that laic. Nis (Mr. RoebuCk's) idea was only a
speculative one, and he was not at all certain of its results ;
but he slid know that great advantages had arisen from the
Poor-law Commission, and however great the outcry against
them, he thought more advantage had been done to:the labouring
population by their clear understanding than by any other three
men in that kingdom. However much libelled they might- be
—however furious the denunciations against them—however
fierce the outcry, he would say, that no one roan—no three
men—no dozen men in that House, or out of it. had ever done
so mush for the honest, industrious man, as those three men.
Ile wanted some answer to that, if they could give him one.
It wig desirable to grant relief to the destitute poor,
not simply with
regard to the demands of the poor
themselves, but also with regard
to the
interests of the commu-
nity generally. And how could that be better accomplished
than by imposing some restriction on the granting of that relief
which would render it not more agreeable than the returns of
honest industry, but which should at the same time lend to the
destitute the means of relief—( Hear, hear)—always at the
same time recollecting that the labouring aged Poor, being out
of the sphere of temptation to idleness, should have a generous,
careful, and ever watchful support with regard to their feelings
and comfort? That did not in any way militate against the prin-
ciple of the New Poor-law. That being his view of the New
Poor-law, that being his view of the institution of the Commission
it was not for him to vote for deferring its permanent este-
b!i.diment, and the only quarrel he had with the late Govern-
ment, was their putting it off from year to year, and not firmly
establishing it. He (Mr. Roebuck) would have perilled his
Ministerial existence on that law, and he would have left to the
Right Hon. Baronet, if he would have taken it, the odium of
opposing the resolution of making that law the permanent,
fixed law of the land. The outcry which had been raised
against the law had not been raised by the industrious poor,
but by others, for party purposes. Certain parties in the
parishes had been disappointed by the New Poor-law, and they
easily found organs to express those opinions. Those being
his (Mr. Roebuck's) sentiments, whatever was the feeling out
of doors, he was prepared to take, his share of the responsi-
bility, and to vote for the continuance of a genuine and humane
measure.—( Loud cheers.)
Sir R. PEEL, in rising, said--He should first address him-
elf the appeal which had been made to him by the Hon.
Gentleman the Member for Finsbury, in the course of which
he expressed a hope that her Majesty's Government would, in
the course of that debate, signify their intention of acquiescing
in the motion wade by the other side of the House with re-
spect
to that past of the Bill which related to its renewal. He
begged to intimate to the House tbat it was not in his power,
in the part of her Majesty's Government, to hold out the
slightest hope that they would acquiesce in it.— (Hear, hear.)
'They held out that measure which they believed to be best for
the public interests, and they asked the House fairly to coneider
st end to give. whet oliispioe on it ttlikeY gliellat proper. T 04.44

course be must strictly adhere. lie admitted that the oppo-
sition with which her Majesty's Government had been met
duvring the present session in proposing important measures
affecting most extensive 'rite, ests, had been a fair opposition.
He made no complaint of it whatever.—(llear, hear. )
He had a confidence founded on experience, that notwithstand-
ing the declarations which hail been made, no factious opposi-
tion would be given to the progress of the Bill. —( Hear. )
If the sense of the House was decidedly manifested as to the in-
convenience that would arise from the postponement of the
on asure from year to year, then he believed that the miaority
'would be content. to acquiesce in the decision of the ma-
Inrity, and would not adopt a course that must necessarily in
tertere with that time which was devoted to the publicybusi-
ne,s,
and which, if unduly persevered in, would be at variance
o ith the functions of a legislative assembly.—( Hear, hear. )
Ile spoke with perfect sincerity. He knew that menaces were
often thrown out in the course of debate which were not after-
wards carried into effect. The Right Hon. Gentleman wished
for time to have the opinions of the country expressed on the
subject. But was not the continuation of the Commission
proposed last year for five years ; and had not the country a
lull year to declare themselves on the subject?—( Hear.)
The sure language was used on the subject of the Income-tax,
but he had that confidence in the people, and in their percep-
tions of the necessity of that measure, that he prophesied no de-
cided opposition would be manitested against it, and the event
proved he was right. It had been distinctly declared by the
leading political men in the House that they were disposed
to acquiesce in the measure for the continuance of the
Poor-Jaw Commissioners for live years, and it being perfectly
notorious to the country that a similar proposition would be
made in the course of the present Session, he found that only
1(18 petitions, wnh 25,000 signatures attached, were presented
on the subject.—( Hear, hear.) lie referred to those petitions,
which had express reference to the continuation of the Poor-
law Cummissern, and if the deliberate opinion, or even the pre-
judices of the country, had been against the present system, he
could not help thinking that a greater number of petitions would '
have been psesented to the House, after full notification that the
measure would be brought forward. But the Hon, and Learned
Msmber for Bath contrasted his recent with his former conduct,
anti said that he (Sir R. ['eel) was now suffering the penalty
in the infliction of the eloquence of the lion. Member—
( Laughter)—on account of his forbearance to declare his
posi-
tive opinion on the subject. That infliction was unmerited by
him—(Laughter)—because he was satisfied that no person had
a right to misrepresent him, or say that he concealed his
opinions.—(Cheers.) But the Hon. Gentleman said, " Why
du you not compel all your party ?"—( Laughter.) That was
excessively difficult.—(Laughter.) He had not such influence
as to be able to drill the gentlemen of England into implicit
acquiescence.—(llear, hear, and laughter.) During the time
that he had the honour of leading the Conservative party, he
had received tolerably strong proof of their acquescence iu the
advice he gave them, but he could not say that he ever ex-
pected, or could expect, to exercise the sort of censorship which
the Hon. Gentleman alluded to, over every person's opinions
with regard to the Poor-law ; nor ought it to be expected that
if persons expressed a different opinion from his with regard to
the Poor-law, he should remonstrate with them on the opinions
they entertained,—( Lear, hear. ) He did not think the Noble
Lord opposite had been more successful in the situation he held
with so much ability, in obtaining an acquiescence in his
opinions—(Lau,ghter)—and, notwithstanding the ability of the
hon. and Learned Gentleman, and his attempts to force
his opinions on the House, he did not think he was more sue-
cesstul.—(Laughter and cheers.) But such was always the
fate of public men.—(Laughter.) He could not be respon-
sible for the opinions which individuals held, and he was afraid
that it he attempted to force his own convictions on them, they
would revolt against him—( Hear, hear)—and though it might
be inconvenient on certain occasions he did not think that the
credit of Englishmen would be promoted by any such ac-
qwesence.—(Cheers.) On all proper occasions he had ex•
pressed his own opinions with respect to this measure. In 1834,
when the Poor-law Bill was brought forward, the Duke of
Welliegton in the House of Lords, and he himself in the
House of Commons, geve the measure their most cordial sup-
port. Ile supported it at a time when it would have been easy to
raise a public clamour against the measure. He thought the then
Government acted an honest and manly part in bringing for-
ward that measure, and he gave them his assistance.
—(Hear, hear, hear.) With regard to the elections
if he had availed himself of the prejudices on the subject of the
Pour-law at that time for the purpose of acquiring political
power, he should be ashamed of the advantages he had so ob-
tained. In the year 1837, there was another general election,
and his election took place at an early period, and he was asked
his opinions on the hustings with regard to the Poor-law, and
why he supported that measure in 1834. He would read to
the House the answer he then gave in the face of his constis
tueney, and he would ask whether it was possible for any public
mar,, at a critical time too, to have made a more explicit
declaration on the subject than he had? He was asked did
he not support the Poor-law, and in reply 'mme said frankly and
explicitly that he supported the Poor-law, and that his opinions
were not enanged. He dirt not support it for the purpose of making
' a reduction in the amount of the rates, which was one of the
smallest advantages derived from the law ; but he supported it
because he saw the moral condition of the labouring man
gradually lowered, and he wanted by an improved system
to elevate their character, and improve their comforts. He
supported the measure from real friendship to the poor, since
that it would be for their real advantage. These were the
sentiments be uttered in 1837, in the face of his constituents,
and he asked was it not a decided opinion?—(Hear, hear.,
In the course of last year he spoke and voted in favour of th)
second reading of the Bill. It was true that he said thee
continuance of the Commission for five years was better than
for ten years, and he also said something respecting the
burial of the poor, but he gave his cordial support to the
Bill ; and he explicitly stated his opinion on that occasion.
—( Hear.) On every occasion he had supported the law ;
in 1534, in 1837 he expressed his decided opinions
with regard to the law ; and in 1841 he gave his support to the
Government upon a division, and it was not his fault if lion.
Gentlemen wished to excite hopes amongst their constituencies
as to the course he should adopt with respect to the measure.
As to the Bill itself he was surprised at the degree of forgetful-
ness—he would not call it forgetfulness—manifested by the up-
ponents of that Bill respecting the enactments of the Poor-law.
They had talked of the preseat Bill as if it deprived the poor of
the privilege they derived from the enactment of Elizabeth.
Such statements were made in ignorance of that statute.
Ile heard persons speak of the present Bill as being a
violent departure from the statute of Elizabeth. He heard
them speak of the statute as the bread-charter of the poor ;
and unfavourable contrasts were made between that enactment
anti the present. What was that enactment, and in what slid
it differ from, or correspond with the present law ?—( Hear,
hear, from Mr. Wakley.) The lion. Gentleman said " Hear,
hear." He must, then, be unaware of the similarity between
the 43d of Elizabeth and the present law. Let hint (Sir R.
Peel) then appeal to his reason. By the 43d of Elizabeth, time
churchwardens and overseers were empowered to raise funds,
by a tax on wool, flax, &c., to assist the poor in getting
work. Here there iris no absolute right of the poor to
relief, unless he worked. Let him take three classes—the
able-bodied poor, the children, and the impotent—and let him
compare the enactments of each statute. First, as to
the able-bodied poor, there was no statutable enactment
recognising a right on the part of the able-bodied men to re-
ceive parochial relief without work. The able-bodied poor had
no right to receive relief unless he was prepared to give his
labour in return ; and there would be no stability for society if
a different law were recognised. Not only would property not
exist, but it would undermine it in a manner most adverse to
the moral habits of the country if a different law were enacted.
The statute of Elizabeth then empowered the churchwardeps
to levy competent sums of money towards the necessary relief
of the lame, impotent, old, and blind, and such other men, being
poor and not able to work. With regard to children, that sta-
tute
empowered the churchwardens to take charge of arid put
them out to apprenticeships at a mile distant, there to remain
—the boys until they were 24, the females until they were 21.
That was the enactment with regard to apprenticeships. So
little disposed were those who framed that law to recognise an
indefeasible right in the poor, that they demanded from them
labour in return for their support--from the boys until they were
24, and from the females until they were 21 years of age,
with a power on their part to dissolve the engagements entered
into by the overseers of the poor. With regard to the impo-
, tent, the churchwardens were empowered, with the consent of
the Lord of the Manor, to build habitations for them in waste
' grounds, in which one or more families might be placed, and
there continue, while unable to work. Poor-houses were pro-
vided, but out-door relief was not precisely given by the Act.
But observe a singular and conclusive proof as to the intention
of the statute with regard to the claim for relief on the part of
the noor ; for it was enacted that fathers and grandfathers,
anti'motl;ers and grandmothers, and children, and lame, blind,
and impotent persons, and others not able to work, who should
receive relief, were to forfeit 20s. every month.—( Hear. )
lie had, on a former occasion, stated the grounds of his vote
in favour of the existing law, and that the existence of the
Commission would operate as a check on local abuses, and would
be a guarantee against those which prevailed under the former
system.—( Hear, hear.) If proof of that were wanting, he
might refer to the Report of the Keightley Union. —( Hear.)
He had listened to the eloquent parts of the lion. Gentleman's
speech—(Laughter)—in which he described the poor man as
traversing the green lanes, and reposing in the heat of the day
on the hill side in the neighbourhood of Keightley. He ( Sir
Hubert Peel) found it was ornamented by a certain building
for the reception of the poor. If the poor-house—for
workhouse it was not—was placed on the h;11 side, he
dare say that one temptation for reposing on it was that
they might be in sight of the poor-house--( Hear.) The
building was a mile distant from the town, and was not
very easy of access. On immediately getting into it, there
' was a low room—he was now quoting from the Report of
11r. Elliott-24 feet by 17, which served both for a dining-
room and sleeping-room. It contained dirty beds, occupied
by fourteen individuals, one occupied by an old man and his
wife, another occupied in a similar manner, and the other oc-
cupied by met, and boys.—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear.")
That was the manner in which the hill was occupied.—(Loud
cries of " Hear, hear," and cheers.) Another room had nine
beds, which were occupied by twenty-four male children, and
one of which was occupied by a woman with her baby, who
was still ill, and had to share her bed with another.—( Hear,
hear.) Would it be safe to return to such a system? But it
was said there was no necessity for returning to the old law.
It was said, trust the rate-payers—they know the character of
the poor, and will be ready to afford them relief ; trust
the people of England, and all that trash.—(Cheers.) It was
to avoid such scenes as he had read that he was an advocate for
the untie control. Now, with regard to education, what a
difference existed between the system as administered in those
unions under the operation of the Poor-law Commissioners
and those that were not. The Right Hon. Baronet then read
a further extract from the Report of Mr. Mott, in which it was
stated that " a wretched hovel adjoining the dung was used as
a school-rcom ; the schoolmaster was an old pauper, and there
was present in the school only one boy ; there was an adjoin-
ing gaol, to which there was an entrance let through the poor-
house yard; in one room there were two beds occupied
by four women, and in one bed was an old woman evidently
dying. He had also been informed that it was not an unusual
thing, when a pauper died, to leave the dead the companions
of the living.—(Hear, hear.) Now, that was the state of
things which prevailed under the superintendence of local
guardians—
:llr. FERR AND said (as we understood) that that had
happened at a time when the workhotee test was about to be
, enforced.

Sir R. PEEL—But the workhouse test had not yet been
applied. Now, his would ask whether, under the superintend.
ence of the Commissioners, inch observations could have oc•
curred ? What was there in these facts to show him that he
could trust to mere local superintendence, from which the pos-
sibility of inquiry could be shut out, when he remembered the
scenes which had thus taken place? And how long, he would
ask, might not those things have gone on, if there had been no
change in the system ? He believed that the Commissioners
had brought to light a thousand abuses which remained covered
in oblivion in fru mei- times; and the reason why they could
nut properly compare the abuses cf the old law with the griev-
ances of the new, was, that in the one case the evils were silently
endured, tamely acquiesced in ; while under the present law
there was an active vigilance and superintendence, abuses were
brought to light, they were invidiously dwelt upon in the public
press, public indignation was kept alive, and a security ovas
thus afforded against the frequent repetition of such scenes as
had formerly taken place. The present system provoked in.
quiry ; and his helief was that it had by this means materially
contributed to check the recurrence of abuse. lie should tell
th..: Right Hon. Gentleman, the Member for Kuaresborough,
that if, instead of indulging in descriptions of the hills of
Keightlev, if, instead of dabbling with green fields, he had
employed his time in investigating the abuses to which he
It. Peel) had referred, in making an earnest reprgienta-
, • .