The Sun.
London, England, 1845-05-29 00:00:00

from that moment the principle of protection bad re-
ceived a blow from which it had never recovered There

Mr. P. HOWARD said when he had moved the ad-
journment of the debate the other night he had felt
anxious to have addressed the House, but owing to the
lateness of the hour he did not at that time deem it ad-
visable to intrude his opinions on the subject. It had
been remarked, by a very acute observer of passing
events, that unity was as necessary to political as it was
to artistical effect. In former times it was the custom,
on the introduction of a party measure, to resolve the
House-ibto a Committee on the state of the nation, and
although such a course might appear somewhat vague
in its object, or stringent in its effects, it was tanta-
mount to a withdrawal of confidence in Ministers, If

the effect of the proposed measure occasioned a with-
drawal of confidence in the Administration, it
would not, in his opinion, tend to the benefit of the
country at large. He conceived he should not be
justified in yielding his assent to those restrictive reso-
lutions which would have that effect. If the Noble
Lord had said that the proposed measure was merely a
resolution to give his own private opinion to the House
—if he had announced his intention of not taking the
opinion of the House, Hon. Members would have been
happy to have been enlightened by the expression of his
wisdom and experience; but for the Noble Lord uncom-
promisingly to pledge every Member to every one of
those resolutions was what he (Mr. Howard) could not
deferentially submit to. He was not unprepared to admit
that the unsettled state of the country was mainly at-
tributable to the panic oceasioned by the First Lord of
the Treasury ; but ho would have the House to under-
stand thoroughly the nature of the proposed resolutions,
and to ponder over them maturely before they came to a
definite opinion on the matter. The ultimate results of
this measure might prove to be dangerous, disagreeable
and bad. One of the principal objects of those resolu-
tions was evidently to introduce a change in the corn-
laws, and that was a question which could not be pru-
dently under-estimated. When the Noble Lord proposed
the alteration of the present duty to four shillings or
six shillings he did not proceed with the judgment,
which, in his opinion, would result advantageously and
beneficially to the condition of her Majesty's subjects.
During the time the Noble Lord was a Minister of the
Crown he had proposed a duty of eight shillings, which
he considered would tend to satisfy the demands of all
classes, but the attempt was unsuccessful. He (Mr.
Howard) considered there were more efficient and more
practicable means to accomplish the desired object.
He considered that if there was a deficiency of corn,
that is was from the colonies they should be first sup-
plied. It was desirable, before altering the present
corn-laws in favour of foreign powers, to ascertain what
they would give this country in return. If this country
were to take an unlimited quantity of wheat, those
powers might impose an export duty upon grain to be
shipped to this country, and thus the condition of the
consumer and the country would not be improved, while
the whole agricultural interest would be made to suffer.
The other evening he was much satisfied at hearing the
proposition of the Right Hon. Baronet, the Secretary
for the Home Department, for altering parochial settle-
ments, and that measure, if modified in some of its
provisions with respect to settlement by birth, and set-
tlement by local residence, would remove much of the
hardships which at present were inflicted on the work-
ing classes, and be a much more practical course towards
meeting the condition of the country, than the course
proposed by the Noble Lord the Member for the City
of London. With respect to emigration, it was his opi-
nion that it should not be compulsory. The Board of
Trade ought to be an authorised body to afford intend-
ing emigrants every necessary information, but not to
force such a step upon the people. There was at present
a prospect of successful emigration. The cloud which
had overhung New Zealand was clearing away, and it
would afford a wide and valuable field for the purposes
of colonization. That country, so favourable to
human exertion, and so well adapted to the
constitution of the people of this empire, he was sure
might be made a place of the greatest resort for emi-
grants, and produce not only on those who went there,
but to the country they had left behind, the best possible
effects. The Noble Lord had set out with stating that
this was a period of political tranquillity and commer-
cial prosperity, and then he went on to state a series of
propositions respecting the condition of the people. In
those propositions he sought to make extensive altera-
tions, in the face of the declaration by which they were
preceded respecting the flourishing condition of the
country. This appeared to him inconsistent. The Reform
Bill had been jalluded to by the Hon. Baronet the
Member for Essex, who spoke the other evening with
respect to that measure. He (Mr. Howard) thought the
results had been most gratifying, to both the country
and that House, as it left the Government more indepen-
dent and unfettered in its course, and less dependant on
party for support. To alter the provisions of that mea-
sure he judged highly impolitic, and hence he could not
support the motion of the Hon. Member for Rochdale
(Mr. S. Crawford) for an extension of the suffrage. He
believed, also, the country was indifferent to the subject.
In these times of prosperity worthy and industrious
working-men had the means of acquiring, by their
exertion, the elective franchise, and this he looked upon
as one of the great advantages of a representative system.
The Noble Lord, with his accustomed eloquence, had
adverted to the subject of education of the people. Now,
he (Mr. Howard) was not indifferent to the extension of
education, but it ought not to be overlooked that the
Executive Government, who had taken up that subject,
had encountered considerable difficulty on that sub-
ject. Were religion excluded, as in the case of the pro-
posed Colleges for Ireland, then objections were started
that such an education tended to infidelity ; or if, on the
other hand, religion were made a peculiar feature,
then the religions that were not favoured were
excited into opposition. He had been much
pleased in listening to the able statement of the Noble
Lord, but he thought it out of all precedent to introduce
such a string of abstract resolutions as he had done.
He (Mr. Howard) had sat in that House fifteen years,
and he had never known any Hon. Member introduce,
at any one time, any motion that would involve
such extensive changes :as that of the Noble Lord.
At the present time he thought the motion out of place,
and hence he should oppose it. He believed that
nothing beneficial to the country could flow out of it.
Mr. ESCOTT agreed with what the Hon. Gentleman
who had just sat down had stated respecting the motion
being made up of a string of abstract resolutions ; but
they, nevertheless, involved important practical results.
The propositions of the Noble Lord contemplated great
changes. They set out with a statement respecting the
political tranquillity and commercial prosperity of the
country, and then entered into a series of questions, the
direct object of which appeared to be, the changing of
that Government by which this state of tranquillity and
prosperity had been brought about. —(Cries of
" Hear, hear.") That was the only intelligible
meaning that could be applied to the motion. He con-
sidered the question had boon brought forward at a very
improper time, and with no hope of leading to any be-
neficial end. He looked upon it as a dangerous ques-
tion, and more calculated to excite the feelings than to
appeal to the judgment of the people of the country.
This was no time for bringing up the question of the
people's distress, or with profit and advantage to all
parties concerned. With proper management, and with
a due cultivation of the soil, there was so necessity for
emigration. With regard to education, he thought
there was no necessity for going into the sub-
ject at present, seeing that the matter was in
the hands of the Government. But the great question in-
volved by the Noble Lord's motion was that of exciting
an agitation to make the working classes discontented
with their condition. Such discussions did no good
as they led to no beneficial or practical result. The
Noble Lord the Member for Dorsetshire had much to
answer for in this respect. He. had brought subjects
before their notice which were only calculated to excite
benevolent feelings without ending in any benefit to the
parties who were the subject of those feelings. The
Noble Lord (the Member for London) he was afraid
was liable to something of the same charge. Any en-
couragement of emigration he (Mr. Escott) held would
be attended with no great benefit, nor did he think it
necessary that such a step should be carried out. He
believed that this country even with its present prices
could beneficially employ the whole population, If the mo-
tion of the Noble Lord were carried it would be followed
up with the most important alterations in the corn-laws.
The Hon. Member for Essex had stated that there was no
plan proposed. Certainly there was no new plan. He
remembered a Noble Lord, not then in his place
(Lord Palmerston), two years ago, on a motion on the
import duties, reflected on what he termed the Govern-
ment's pedantic adherence to former professions.
That Noble Lord had a right to act upon the oppo-
site principle himself ; but he (Mr. Escott) could not
say that the Noble Lord who had introduced the present
motion had so acted, for he had certainly shown a
most romantic adherence to his former opinions. He
had made inquiries from Members both in and out
of that House, with respect to their feelings on the fixed
duty, and with the exception of the Noble Lord the
Member for London there was not one in favour of it.
That being the case, he should like to know how or with
whom he meant to form his Government with
respect to the fixed duty. The Noble Lord the Mem-
ber for Sunderland might certainly change his mind upon
the subject ; but, till he heard that that was the case,
he had no right to assume it as fact; and under these cir-
cumstances he was at aloss to know how the Noble Lord in
tended to carry into effect the principle for which he had
so perseveringly contended. There was another reason
which made the conduct of the Noble Lord still more
astonishing. It was not more than six weeks ago
since he had heard the Noble Lord say that pro-
tection was the bane of agriculture.—(Hear, hear.)
On a great question such as the corn-laws—a ques-
tion on which so much depended—it was absolutely
necessary that the House should deliberate carefully as
to any course it should adopt. It seamed to him that
there were two parties in that House, and the country
too, on this question. Ho denied, however, that there
was any great feeling agitating the country in reference
to it. The great free traders and protectionists who
had been so prominent two or three years age, bad
softened down, and there was now no longer anything
like the interest which some time ago had been taken in
it. In the country there was no agitation. He must
say, that it was creditable to the Honourable
Members on that side of the House to give up
the high rates of duty, which they had recently
done. It proved there was no selfishness connected
with them; and he did not hesitate to say, that they had
acted a noble and a generous part. The other part of
the House who took a different view of the subject were
of two classes—part of them, who called themselves the
farmer's friends, and for whom he entertained the greatest
respect, were, he thought, influenced in their opposition
by the best motives. He considered that they were desi-
rous to proenote the interest of the people, and he
honoured them for their intentions, however much he
differed from them as to the mode of carrying them out.
But he did not understand the other class of the farmer's
friends. He did not understand those who went down
to the country and made an outcry, and raised their
shouts against measures which they themselves had, b
and!hie
atchat
rmtecheers.)hds iantsztioonfstfarmers who Were to
their votes, helped to carry into effect.—(Hear, hear,y
ettanlfatrees their That
good
CxitihTillehhaadnlgiziiit intentions!
From th(i) moment
changed, and the
Government to fall back upon the old principle, impossible for the
and the
result was that the whole system of protection
was com-
pletely undermined.—(Hear, hear.)
An HONOURABLE MEMBER here rose, and moved that
the House be counted, when strangers were ordered to
withdraw. There being forty members present the
debate was continued.
Mr. Es.,orr.—From the moment it was avowed
that the object of protection was to raise the price of
corn, and put money into the pockets of the landowner

was one way of defending it, and if protection was
not to be defended on the ground of giving a more
regular supply of corn, but on the contrary, of pro-
ducing an artificial scarcity to put money into the
pockets of the landholders, then might he say with truth
that the cause of protection was gone. That was a
more staggering blow than it had ever yet received.
He felt it his duty to state, and he believed the majority
of the country came to the same conclusion, that from
the time the Honourable Member for Kent, the Mem-
ber for Sutherland, and the Duke of Richmond (in
another place), had made the statements to which he
alluded, the cause of protection had suffered, for it
was impossible that the people could be convinced by
such arguments. It might, perhaps, be prejudicial to
him—and it might be disagreeable to many of his
friends, to whom he owed great political and public sup-
port, to have spoken as he had done that evening; but no
consideration of that kind, no favours of such a nature,
_ .

highly as he valued them, should induce him to suppress
his views of what he considered right on this great ques-
tion, or to sacrifice his integrity. There were one or two
other points, and one to which he would particularly al-
lude before he sat down. Much had been said of the
greatness of the public distress that prevailed in the
country. He concurred in a great deal of what had
been stated in reference to that, and he would be glad
to ask some of those Gentlemen who had left the
House, and who had very eloquently alluded to it, what
was the cause of the farmer's distress. He had lately been

inVthe country, and he could assure the House that
the want of keep was the great cause of this distress.
And how could any other state of things be expected
after the winter and spring which had just passed over.
When his Right Hon. Friend (Sir J. Graham) whom he
was glad to sae in his place, had stated a few evenings
ago the lowest price of meat, he confessed he did feel sur-
prise. The Right Hon. Gentleman, however, was under a
mistake. It was higher, he contended, than it had
been for many years, and the reason was the scarcity of
keep in the country. He would state, however, a fact,
which had just come under his notice.—(Hear.) In the
contract which had been lately entered into with
the Government for the supply of 'Woolwich, meat was
Id. per lb., and in the contract last year it was only
6d. per lb. Now, he would state that he never knew
anything equal to the distress which prevailed in the
eountry.—(Hear, hear.) It was time for them to con-
sider whether any measures could be adopted to mitigate
this distress. He thought that the duties on the impor-
tation of many articles connected with agriculture ought
to be greatly modified. The farmers wanted more seeds.
It was not long ago that he had a conversation with a
gentleman who was an ultra-protectionist, but who had
the good sense not to connect himself with any of the
protection societies, and who had paid 401. last year
for seed. Now that gentleman declared to him, that if
he could have purchased this quantity for 201., he would
have sowed double the quantity of land. He had no
hesitation, therefore, in saying that these restrictions
were one great cause of the farmers' distress. They were
fully convinced that the time was come when such re-
strictions ought to cease.—(Hear, hear.) Before he sat
down he hoped he would bo allowed to say that the
course which the Government pursued was, in his opi-
nion, the best course which they could have pursued,
under the circumstances, and he would not do his duty
to his constituents if he voted for the Noble Lord's reso-
lutions. He thought, however, that as to any finality on
this measure or on that, the idea was absuri.--(Hear.)
Yet it was impossible that any Parliament or any
Government of this country could stand by any set of
measures when they were opposed to the welfare of the
people. These ;views were, to a considerable extent,
entertained by all the most sensible men in the country.
—(Hear, hear.) When the Noble Lord the Member for
the City of London said that the condition of the working
man must be improved, and that he was placed in a dis-
advantageous position at the present moment, he was guilty
of exaggeration, as the mass of the population were now
better employed and at higher wages than for the last
fourteen or fifteen years. As to their knowledge, he
believed that the increasing light which was extending
throughout the land, and which was teaching senators
wisdom, would, by and bye, reach the home of the poor
man—that it would teach them sobriety, the best means
of conducting their domestic concerns, and the first and
best lesson, that of makir?g them contented with their lot.

Sir J. GRAHAM said-he had to offer a few words in
explanation of a return of the prices of butcher's meat,
which had been referred to on a former evening. The
return was prepared by the Board of Trade, at his re-
quest, and did not refer to the price of dried meat in the
hands of retail butchers. It was made up for six years
—from April, 1539, to April in the present year. The
return showed a decrease of the price of meat sold to
the labouring classes in this year over 1340.
Captain PECHELL said he had never hoard a more
valuable or more excellent speech, than that delivered by
the Hon. Member for Winchester. Whatever might be
their difference of opinion with respeot to the resolutions of
the Noble Lord, they must all agree that he had afforded
them much useful information. With respect to the
state of education in Sussex, he had been informed that
400 out of 870 persons, confined in Lewes gaol, were
ignorant of the existence of the Saviour. With respect
to the want of education in other counties, he could cor-
roborate the statements of the Noble Lord. He stated
that not more than a third of the prisoners confined in
Stafford gaol could read. In Devonshire, Denbigh-
shire, Essex, and other counties, great ignorance pre-
vailed. Out of 131 confined in Hereford gaol, only one
could read tolerably well. The Gallant Member referred '
to the criminal returns of other gaols, to show the great
want of education among the lower Classes. But when
the Noble Lord wished to show that ignorance existed
among the lower classes in Suffolk and in other counties,
he might have said that it also prevailed among the
higher classes in that and in other counties in England.
Much gross ignorance existed among a class of far
higher station than the labouring class—he meant the
" farmers friends."—(Hear, hear.) At a dinner at
Brighton, on the 24th of January last, a Noble Lord, in
reply to the toast of " The Nary," said he was happy
to say " that the only individual connected with his pro-
fession, who was opposed to the cause that was
protection—was the Member for the borough in
which they were assembled. He was sure they must
succeed against the Anti-Corn-law League, and he had
hoisted the flag of protection, and was ready to do battle
with that body." He (Capt. Pechell) believed that
the people of this country were not so hostile to the
Anti-Corn-law League as they had been. These words,
or others of a similar nature, had been uttered in other
places, but it was rather a remarkable circumstance that
they had not heard them in that House. They had had
divisions, and all kinds of schemes, but when they came to
the point they were never able to bring them to a fair
stand-up fight, and they never proposed any measures
for the benefit of those whose friends they professed to
be. They did not support the assertions they made
at their' agricultural associations.—(Opposition cheers.)
He agreed with the Hon. Member for Manchester (Mr.
M. Gibson), that assertions like those to which he had
referred were frittering away. Ho (Captain Pechell)
was in favour of the resolutions of the Noble Lord, and
of the amendment of the Hon. Gentleman the Member
for Rochdale (Mr. Sharman Crawford.) With respect
to the question of the extension of the suffrage, the
Hon. Member for Manchester must know that petitions
were now lying on the table of the House, which had not
been entertained, but which must be entertained, either
by Hon. Gentlemen opposite, or by the Noble Lord the
Member for the city of London. The speech of the
Hon. Member for Carlisle, who was very delicate on
this subject, and who had--shown more sensitiveness on
that debate than on others, had disappointed him. He
regretted that on the division on the questions before the
House, they should not have the support of the Hon.
Member for Winchester.
Sir JOHN WALSH believed that the speech of the
Hon. Member for Winchester (Mr. Escott) deserved all
the compliments which had been paid to it, and that it
would, no doubt, meet with approbation from the Mem
bars of the Anti-Corn-law League. The Noble Lord
said, that however various the topics involved in his reso-
lutions were—however different they might be, and
distinct from each other, yet there was one common bond
of union between them, and that they had a direct ten-
dency to promote the welfare of all classes of society.
In that he was disposed to agree with the Noble Lord,
but at the same time he thought that it would have
been better if his resolutions—wide and comprehensive
as they were—had contained only subjects which had a
reference to the welfare of the labouring classes. If his
intention, in bringing them forward, ha been for the
purpose of stating his own views on this question, he
certainly should have felt, and every Member on that
side of the House would have felt, however much they
might differ from him in their political opinions, most
willing to attend to everything that fell from his au•
thority with respect to it. He must say, however, that
, it appeared to him, that the introduction of so many
different topics into one discussion, could not fail to
distract the attention of the House, and render the
discussion desultory and inconclusive. Tho attention of
Hon. Members was apt to turn to some particular topic
which related to party, to the exclusion of others which
the Noble Lord had united with them, He agreed with
one of the resolutions propounded by the Noble Lord,
and in the opinions with which he introduced it to the
House. He alluded to the question of colonization. He
was glad to hear the opinions which the Noble Lord ex-
pressed on that subject, more particularly when he con-
sidered the great influence which he possessed in
that House ; but at the same time he regretted that
the Noble Lord had not earlier given his attention
to it. When he held the office of Secretary to
the Colonies, he might have given a great im-
petus to an enlarged system of colonization.
He (Sir J. Walsh) thought that it was in the power of
her Majesty's Government to devise a practical measure
which might have a tendency to effect the object of the
resolution—of relieving the redundant labour in the
agricultural districts by a well-conducted scheme of
emigration. It was particularly with reference to this
subject that he wished to call the attention of her Ma-
jesty's Government. One of the principal objects which
prevented the carrying out of such a scheme in a full and
effective manner was, the great difficulty of providing
for emigrants on their first landing in a colony, of find-
ing them employment, and of placing them in a position
in which their labour might be rendered available, and
under circumstances in which the protection of the Go-
vernment might be afforded to them. Much in this
respect he thought might be done to render emigration
to the colonies advantageous to the people of this country.
The only question, in fact, was that of the corn-laws.
But, with respect to this, what was the state of the case?
Why, that the improvements which had been made in
England in the practice of agriculture were greater
than that which had been made in any other country in
the world. The whole of these improvements had been
made during the last half century. During that period
more successful attempts had been made to overcome
the difficulties of climate and soil than in any other
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