The Sun.
London, England, 1845-02-18 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY MORNING-, FEBRUAR-1: lB I 84:).

question. It should be recollected it was an unpre- 'l4
cedented situation—(Cheers)—in consequence of the
new Board which had been imposed upon Parliament.
Would the House take the leavings of the Board of
Trade, or would they act independently ?—(Hear.)
Mr. C. WOOD did not think the answer of the
Right Hon. Baronet was calculated to give satis•
faction either to the House or to the country. The
Government should consider whether the answer
given was calculated to give confidence in the railway
department of the Board of Trade. He (Mr. Charles
Wood) had heard from other sources the report to
which the Noble Lord had alluded. He had heard
that on one occasion the members of the Committee
were evenly divided in opinion as to a particular line
of railway ; but one of its members gave a casting
vote, which determined the Railway Committee upon
deciding in favour of the line which the President
had sanctioned, and this, too, although the only
engineer who was a member of the Committee ex-
pressed his dissent to the line recommended. If the
Government wished that the reports of the Committee
should be received with any degree of confidence he
confessed he thought they were taking the worst pos-
sible course to ensure any degree of trust in the
justice of their decisions.
Mr. MILNES said he thought Hon. Gentlemen
had erred in attaching so much importance to names
and authorities. What they should look to was the
reasons which the Committee gave for the decisions
at which they arrived. Ile did not see that names or
authorities had anything to do with the matter.
What the Government had said was that the reports
should be merely considered as guides, and these re-
ports could not be in any way invalidated by the
supposition that some of those gentlemen might have
dissented from the opinions of the remainder.
Mr. ESCOTT said that he feared the construction
of the Board involved much suspicion as to its pro-
ceedings. The proceedings of the Committee would
never give satisfaction unless they were public. It
sat as a court of justice, and if its proceedings were
secret they would always be liable to suspicion.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said that the answer of the
Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir G. Clerk)
would not give satisfaction.—(Hear, hear.) It was
important to consider that the inquiry had been en-
trusted to a responsible department of the Govern-
ment—(Hear, hear)—and it was not intended
that it should be left to a tribunal composed of gen-
tlemen who had no Parliamentary responsibility.—
(Hear, hear.) The Committee which sat last year
recommended that the Board of Trade should exa-
mine the applications to be made to Parliament for
new railway projects, and for rival railways,
and should report to the House their opinion
of their merits ; but he did not think that
the Committee, in making that recommendation, at all
contemplated that there should be constituted a new
tribunal, exempt from Parliamentary responsibility.
He had been a member of that Committee, and to
speak for himself, he never had contemplated any
such thing. He thought that the Board of Trade would
transact the business itself, and that the President or
the Vice-President, or some member of the Govern-
ment, being responsible to Parliament, would have pro-
vided for the proper performance of this business in
the railway department. He thought the Board of
Trade was bound to take the duty upon itself—
(Hear, hear)—and he never before had heard
of the appointment of a tribunal constituted, as was
the one in question, of persons having no Parlia-
mentary character and no responsibility to the
country.—(Hear, hear.) He thought that those
gentlemen should not have the task thrown upon them,
however respectable they might be. He did not wish
to say a word against their respectability, upon
which there could be no imputation, but he must say
that it was not proper that gentlemen who filled such
situations as that of private secretary should have
been placed in possession of such extraordinary power
and with such little responsibility.—(Hear,hear.) He
must also say that certainly suspicions had arisen. He
aid not hesitate to declare his convictions that these
suspicions were wholly unfounded. But he thought the
Government had to thank itself for having occasioned
those suspicions by the manner in which they had
instituted the Board. However, the mischief had
been done, and could not very well be remedied so
far. Still he must repeat that he did not think the
answer of the Hon. Gentleman had been satisfactory.
He agreed with the Hon. Gentleman opposite that
whatever effect the report of the Board of Trade might
have on the House must depend on its impartiality.
If it was found that the engineer of the Board differed
from the rest of his colleagues upon the nature of the
report, that must, of course, very much detract from
it.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. GLADSTONE said he he did not intend to
enter into the question upon which this discussion
commenced—namely, an examination or an analysis
of the Railway Board as to the opinion of its members.
But there were two other matters introduced, upon
which he wished to say a few words. The Honour-
able and Learned Member for Winchester ex-
pressed a strong opinion, that if the judg-
ments of the Board were to carry any weight
their proceedings must be public. Now he stated
most strongly to the House that there was no choice
between having their proceedings not public and
having no Railway Board at all.—(Hear, hear.)
There was no alternative. If the House was of
opinion that they should establish public proceedings
before a Board of that nature, they must have regular
and formal examinations of witnesses—the parties'
counsel and agents must be constantly present—
they must have regular statements and replies—
they must have all that delay and expense which the
very gentlemen who complained of the want of pub-
licity were parties to expose before that House.
With regard to the composition of the Board, the
Right Hon. Gentleman opposite was the first person
from whom he had heard any censure, and far less
' such severe censure as that of the Right Honourable
Gentleman. It was easy to find fault with its con-
stitution, or any plan that might be adopted under the
circumstances; but if he loaked to the alternative to
which the Right Hon. Gentleman pointed out in
the remarks he addressed to the House, he
was not at all shaken in his conviction that the course
taken in the appointment of the Board was the best
course of which the circumstances would admit.
The Right Hon. Gentleman admitted that if there
was to be a Board at all, he would have it constituted
of Privy Councillors. Now, he would ask the
House how it was possible to constitute the
Board of Privy Councillors, the members of which
should have patiently devoted themselves from morn-
ing till night, for the space of four or five months, to
receive deputations, to examine papers, and form con •
elusions connected with 240 railroads.—(Hear, hear.)
Perhaps it might be the opinion of the Right Hon.
Gentleman that such things were possible. In his
(Mr. Gladstone's) opinion, it was totally visionary,
and he was astonished to hear such a plan recom-
mended by any person, but particularly by a gentle-
man of great ability, who held a high public
office in the country. Another plan was, that
the President and Vice-President of the Board
of Trade might proceed with regard to Rail-
way Bills as they did with regard to public
bills. That might be the best course to pursue if it
was physically possible that the buisiness of the
Railway Department could be got through in that
manner. But the organ of the Board of Trade
in that or the other House of Parliament
had many other matters to attend to. He had
to attend to many commercial and financial mea-
sures, and to many important matters con-
nected with their foreign and colonial policy.
At the present moment the circumstances of the Rail-
way Department were such that they demanded the
undivided mind and time of those who were called
upon to conduct the affairs of that department.
Therefore, although the institution of a novel mode of
proceeding was in itself disadvantageous, yet
the Government were absolutely driven upon
it, because the usual machinery of Parliamen-
tary representation would have been totally in-
adequate to the purpose. It was absolutely
necessary, with regard to such important matters as
railways, to take some means of assuring the House
and the country that there had been, according to
the opportunities possessed, a patient and laborious
investigation of the facts ; and he did not think it
possible for any gentleman who heard him to ima-
gine that such an assurance could have been given
in this case by the Board of Trade, and to an
audience similar to that which usually decided
upon private Bills.—(Hear.) Although the plan
adopted was very far from being theoretically perfect,
and although, as must always be the case where such
great conflicting interests were at stake, great dis-
satisfaction prevailed, yet it was remarkable that no
gentleman had pointed out a course of proceeding
which, on the whole, would be attended with so
few disadvantages. It had been objected to one of
these gentlemen that he had been private secretary to
the Secretary of State for the Home Depart-
ment. Well, he did not himself see that
that was in the nature of a disqualification, or
in the nature of proof or presumption that this gen-
tleman was unfit for his position. Why, what
changes they constantly saw taking place ! Who
censured the appointment of the gentleman who was
lately private secretary to Lord Haddington, now the
Secretary to the Admiralty ?—(Hear, hear.) Other
gentlemen who had been private secretaries had been
afterwards made Secretaries of State; and he really
could not see that the post of a member of the Railway
Board was at all more important. He believed
that the word " clerk" had been applied to those
gentlemen. It had been said that the gentlemen who
dealt with these vast interests were persons scarcely
higher in station than clerks. Now it was impossible
to use a word more ambiguous than the word
" clerk." A " clerk" might mean one who was en-
gaged in the discharge of mechanical duties—on the
other hand it was frequently applied to a per-
son in al' public office who discharged duties
requiring very high and delicate discretion.
Now, the position of the Board of Trade was this--

the President or Vice-President of that Board acted '
as the head of it ; and it did sometimes happen that
there were only four or five of them acting at a time;
but they were usually assisted in their proceedings
by the counsel of those of their body, who were
most competent to give them advice upon railway
business. Some of them engaged in railways, and others
who, though not so engaged, were most conversant
with that business, took no part in the proceedings of
the Board; but the reason they were connected with
it was because', the object of the Government was to
select those who, from their position and education,
were best qualified to hold such a position. As to
the gentleman who was placed at the head of
the Board of Trade—he stood in the situation of a
responsible and Parliamentary officer, and was
answerable for those acts of his that had been called
in question. Mention had been made of the reports
of the Board of Trade as emanating from only three
or four members of the Board. Now, he could not
say that because a report did emanate from only
that number it should be called a report of only
three or four, no more than should a report from a
Committee of that House be called a report of
three members or one member.—(Laughter.) But
the reports of the Board of Trade were now be-
fore the House as the reports from that department,
and he would contend for it that they should be held
as the deliberate and formal reports of that body.—
(Hear.) He could say, that while he was connected
with that Board ho exercised his best abilities to give
satisfaction ; and he would now say, that if he were
still connected with it he would defend its acts on the
floor of that House; and connected with it now or
not, he would still be ready to defend them while he
was connected with the Board—(Hear, hear)—and
he felt assured that those reports had, as they ought
to have, the confidence of the majority of that House.
—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. BERNAL had listened with great atten-
tion to the Hon. and Learned Member opposite
in his defence of his conduct while he was in
office, as a member of the Board of Trade, and
he (Mr. B.) was glad to hear him say he would be
answerable for the veracity of the reports of that
Board—(Laughter)—and that, furthermore, he was
prepared to defend those reports, and act as their
gladiator on the floor of that House.—(Laughter.)
This was the difficulty in which the subject was in-
volved. He had long entertained an opinion on the
subject of the private bnsiness of that House, which
he was aware was not a popular one, and whenever
he had introduced it, it had not received the slightest
support. He thought they ought gradually to take
steps towards removing the chief part of the pri-
vate business from the control of that house.
They were approaching an era in civilisation,
unlike any that had been seen before, and a whole
mass of private business poured in upon them, for the
danger of which they had not provided. They had
sketched out an imperfect and hasty plan, for trusting
some of it to the Committee of the Board of Trade,
and what had been the result? Why that respect-
able gentlemen were indirectly —he might
almost say directly—accused of not discharg-
ing their duties candidly and honestly. Those
gentlemen were placed in an odious position ;
they were exposed to every random shot fired at them
by speculators, or by those who were not speculators.
He for one would not consent to stand in such a
position, and would rather give up the post of Secre-
tary or President of the Committee than encounter
the odium it produced.—(Hear.) It was said
there must be some tribunal ; but it was
impossible that with a hundred Railway
Bills before them, Hon. Members, who were occu-
pied by public business, could give up hours every
day to attend to Railway schemes in which they had
no interest whatever. What, then, was to be done ?
Let the Government, whoever it may be composed of,
boldly sketch out the plan of some open tribunal, out
of doors, where the merits of these railway schemes
could be discussed ; and he was sure that the decisions
of such a body would give more satisfaction than the
decisions of that House. The present Committee had
not sufficient time to attend to the business thrown
upon it—all was hurry and confusion, and so great was
the pressure to get ready the plans and documents for
the last day on which they could be given in, that
several working engineers lost their health, and some
their lives, from the excessive labour; they would
never exonerate the House from suspicion of self-
interest till they removed the control of its
private business to some other tribunal.
There were certainly difficulties attending every new
arrangement, but if they studied the credit of the
House they would lose no time in taking the question
into their serious consideration.

Mr. W. E. GL ADSTONE complained that he had
been misunderstood. What he had stated was, that
if he had continued in office he should have consi-
dered it his duty, as the organ of the Board of Trade,
to defend their decisions, but he had also stated that
the Government was placed in a very different
position with regard to private Bills to that in which
it was placed with regard to public Bills. As the
organ of the Board of Trade, he should have felt it
his duty to make the best defence he could for the
decisions on private Bills, but he begged it to be dis-
tinctly understood that in that decision the Govern-
ment, as a Government, was not involved.

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that
Gentleman had had in the Board of Trade. It ap-
peared to be the impression that the Government
oatvbne
the sanction
n ms authorityaonnettihnand innof n y this matter which had
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Government
the House. Now the
acted in perfect con-
formity, as they thought, with the wishes of the
House of Commons. A Select Committee had
been appointed last session to consider the
mode of proceeding with regard to Railway Bills.
They were called upon to consider if the present
mode of conducting the railway business of the
House of Commons was satisfactory or not. They
had to discuss the question of the
degree of super-
vision which the Government should exercise over
these railway schemes in their early stage. They
considered that some preliminary examination
of these schemes should take place before
they were submitted to that House. They
said they would not discuss whether or not any
new department should be instituted for that purpose,
but they would assure them that Parliament meant
that the Board of Trade should exercise that super-
vision. If the House of Commons entertained a
different opinion, that opinion should have
been expressed at the time. It had been assumed
that the Board of Trade should exercise that super-
vision, and what the Committee proposed was, that
before any Bills were submitted to Parliament, the
schemes should be submitted to a preliminary exami-
nation, leaving it to the Government to determine
whether or not any new department should be in-
stituted for the transaction of railway business.
The reports were only intended as guides for Parlia-
ment. On some occasions the Board reported in
favour of particular lines, and sometimes they re-
ported for postponement ; but he denied that they had
exercised any powers which were not in con-
formity with the powers vested in them by
the Legislature. The Committee reported in
favour of the enlarging of the railway department
of the Board of Trade, but left it to the Government
to say how it was to be organised and how it was to
be enlarged. He denied that the directions of the
Committee had not been complied with. He thought his
Right Hon. Friend had acted with propriety in de-
clining to enter into an explanation about differences
of opinion among the members of the Board, as
to the best line of railway. If differences of
opinion had, in the first instance, occurred
among the members of the Board, as to
the best line of railway, it was quite con-
sistent that explanation and discussion might re-
concile their differences, and when all their names ap-
peared as sanctionirg a report, the fact ought to be
taken to be so, and that all the members of the Board
were unanimous.
Mr. LABOUCIIERE had not complained of the
Board of Trade making these reports. What he
complained of was the mode in which the Board of
Trade, or the Government, thought fit to carry the
recommendations of the Committee into effect.
He had maintained, and he would still main-
tain, that the present was a most cumbrous
mode of proceeding, and most inconvenient to the
public service. He had expressed his opinion as to
the mode in which the Board of Trade had discharged
their duties. He would say no more than to repeat
his opinion that the mischief had already been done,
and that the Government had to thank itself for the
suspicions to which the proceedings of the Board had
given rise.
Sir It. 11. INGLIS thought that all that had been
said on the subject was a justification of the Govern-
ment in having appointed the five gentlemen who con-
stituted the Board.—(Hear, hear.) But hi; (Sir It.
Inglis's) immediate object in rising at present was for
the purpose of making a few observations on
what had fallen from one of the acutest gentlemen in
theHouse,who had formerly been member. forßochester.
He would ask that Hon. Member and the House did
he think it was possible that they could entertain the
idea of creating a new judicial tribunal for the inves-
tigation and determination of matters connected with
railways ?—(No, no.) And, if it were possible to do
so, woul,l it not be actually instituting another Heo.e of
Parliament? For the decision of that new judicial

tribunal would be considered after in the House of
Commons, as if it had come from another branch of
the Legislature ; and it would have to be considered in
its successive stages as a Bill which came from one
House of the Legislature to the other. But he thought
that the present Committee of the Board of Trade
was nearly in the situation of a grand jury. The
inquiries were ex parte ; and when the report came
up to the House it was like an indictment sent from
a grand jury, having only prepared the case
for adjudication. The report did not deprive
the House of the power of examining all the
evidence on both sides, and voting as it thought fit.
There was another observation which he had to make.
An Hon. Gentleman opposite had said that the answer
of his Right Hon. Friend (Sir George Clerk) had
not been satisfactory, as respected the appointment of
some gentlemen on the Board. But it was admitted
upon all hands that those gentlemen were qualified
for the duty, and their characters were admitted by
every gentleman who spoke upon the subject to be
above suspicion.—(Hear.)
Mr. WAKLEY thought that no complaint had
been made against the Government for having insti-
tuted the railway department of the Board of Trade.
He thought it was admitted the House itself was to
blame for all that had been done.—(Hear, and a
laugh.) For all that had been said was that
the system had not worked well, and that
the Government should propose to the House to
remedy the inefficiency.—(Hear.) With respect to
the statement of the late President of the Board of
Trade, he (Mr. Wakley) thought that statement
made matters worse, when he said that if
he were in office still, he would stand up in the House
and defend Ve report. Now, that course would be
to take upon the Government the responsibility of
the report, and to give the latter the weight
of Government authority. The manner in which the
inquiry had been conducted gave great dissatisfaction,
and the public felt that they had suffered considerable
injury. That was the impression in the western
counties. He (Mr. Wakley) hoped that the
Government would give up the idea of having
any such tribunal at all.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.")

come-tax would not be temporary, hut would be
always renewed. lie (Lord John Russell) be-
lieved the question would always be, in regard to the
income-tax, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer had
stated last year, between a renewal of that impost and
a national insolvency.--(Hear, hear.) Well, now let
the House look at the statement the Right Hon. Baronet
made upon financial and commercial grounds. As to
what had been stated upon financial grounds, he (Lord
John Russell) would own they did not admit or much
fault. As to the statement in her Majesty's speech that
it was not her Majesty's intention to increase the civil
list this year, of course the House and the country
should be rejoiced at this, while they were not at all
surprised at it.---(Hear, and a laugh.) With respect to
the increase of the navy estimates, the Right Hon. Ba-
ronet bad left out of his statement that which he (Lord
J. Russell) looked upon as the most necessary part of it,
while he went into a detail of matters not at all looked
for. There were details which were always looked for
as a matter of course in the report of the Secretary-at-
War; and the House always admitted that a consider-
able army force was required to be kept up in the colo-
nies, and the supplies for that department were granted ,
without any objection by the House, whether the party
in power was Whig or Tory.--(Hear, hear.) With re-
gard to the navy estimates, he (Lord J. Russell) was re •
joiced to find that, in this department, the neglect
which was apparent in the years 1634 and 1844, was
now about to give way to more vigilant attention—
(Hear, hear)—nor did he think that a force of ten sail
of the line, for such a maritime power as this
was, should be looked upon as a great conces-
sion.—(Hear, hear.) But it did appear, by the
whole statement of the Hon. Baronet, that the estimates
were very large indeed, and much larger than could have
been expected, considering the absence of those causes
which led to an increase some few years ago. For in-
stance, from the year 1841 to the year 1842, the whole
of the public expenditure, including over half a million
for the support of the army in Canada and China,
amounted to 18,167,0001 Then, the estimates for the
year ending January, 1843, including 1,350,000/., was
over nineteen millions ; and the amount of the estimates
to January, 1844, was 18,895,000!., and this amount, he ,
conceived, should be looked upon as considerably larger
than it ought to be, when it was remembered that there
was no peculiar cause for it.—(Hear, hear.) However,
he hoped and believed, that when her Majesty's Minis-
ters came prepared with their statement, they would also
come prepared with good and sufficient reasons for this
increased amount of the estimates, and if they did so,
he would not join in any vote for a mate-
rial diminution of them.—(Hear, hear.) The
consequence of voting those estimates would be that
there would be a surplus with the income tax of
3,400,000!. Now, he thought if the whole of the surplus
was to be disposed of with respect to many of the arti-
cles chosen, it would be said that they had been judici-
ously chosen with respect to promoting the industry and
commerce of the country. The tax on cotton-wool—a
tax on the raw material—a most important material in
trade, was against all sound commercial principles, and
he must confess that he rejoiced that it was proposed to
take it off.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to the tax on
glass he concurred with the Right Hon. Baronet that
that tax greatly impeded manufactures in that article,
and he thought' the' Right lion. Baronet could not do
better than take it off. With regard, however, to some
of the other taxes it was proposed to remove, the same
observations would not apply. With respect to the auc-
tion duty of the Right Hon. Baronet who did not wish to
keep up any surplus, why 300,000!. should be given away
in auction duty he could not tell. Although he did not
generally agree with the property-tax of the gallant
Member for Lincoln, he thought it would have been
much better to have taken off the tax on fire-insurances
than auctions. The Right Hon. Gentleman had said
that there had been no complaint made of the duty. It
was true, and he seemed to take to himself the merit of
finding out a tax that ought to be removed, but of which
nobody complained. Now, generally speaking, he be-
lieved that when the people found a tax burthensome
they objected to it, but that was not the case here.—
(Cheers.) The tax on soap, he believed, was the only
one remaining on the necessaries of life which Adam
Smith said ought to be repealed, but the Right lion.
Gentleman had said nothing with respect to that tax.
He thought that the Right lion. Gentleman ought to
have gone further. He thought that in fairness to that
House the Right Hon. Gentleman should have come for-
ward and said to that House, " Do you think that a per-
petual income-tax will be suficiently repaid by the taxes
remitted by my proposition ?" But then there was
another part of the Right Hon. Baronet's plan to which
he begged to direct the attention of the House. He
meant its commercial policy. The Right Hon. Baronet
had referred to the tariff of 1842, and he ascribed the
improved condition of the revenue to the changes in the
tariff. Now, he thought it would have been but fair if
the Right Hon. Gentleman had given specific details
instead of general statements. He had informed the
House that there had been a great increase of revenue
in the Customs, but not a single word about the par-
ticular articles on which that duty had arisen. He
(Lord John Russell) believed that as far as could be
judged from returns presented to the House, that, with,
regard to the duties which the Right Hon. Baronegatt
reduced, there had been a great loss to the revenuctlipit,
them, and that the great increase in. the Customs 44;
been solely on articles untouched by his tariff. :With
regard to the articles of consumption in the fire five
schedules, there appeared a loss of 5,500/. on the articles
reduced, but a gam of 17,000/. on those untouched by
the Right Hon. Baronet's measure. In the 7th sChedule
there was a gain on those not touched by the tariff of
1,695,000!., while the loss on those affected by it was
686,0001, leaving a total °gain on these schedules of
1,900,0001 Now, as far as that statement went, it would
appear that the proposition of the Right Hon.
Baronet had not been fairly put to the House.
The gain which had taken place had been entirely owing
to the improved condition of the country, to bountiful
harvests, revivals in trade and manufactures, and not to
changes in the tariff. The Government and the Board
of Trade might have a case to show. If they had he
thought the Right Hon. Baronet should have informed
the House what that case was, and why he expected a
considerable increase on those articles on which he had
reduced the duties. The Right Hon. Baronet proposed
to go further and to remove 400 articles from the ope-
ration of the tariff. But there was another class of
duties, with regard to which the Right Hon. Baronet had
dealt differently. With regard to those questions of
commercial policy to which he had alluded—questions
which were long ago settled in the opinion of all men
who at all looked into them, and with regard to which
there was no opposition—one principle in that respect
was, that there should be no export duty on articles the
produce of manufactures. Another principle was not
to charge a duty on the raw materials and manufactures.
These were excellent principles which were acknowledged
by all. In 1721, Sir Robert Walpole made an altera
tion by which no less than 130 articles in that respect
were affected. With regard to them there was very
little dispute. Everybody was OA to have the reduc-
tion and to have the advantage of it. No person would
-wish to dispute with the itight Hon. Gentleman that it
was a good thing to take off the duty on cotton-wool, or
who would wish to see the export duty on coal continued.
Therefore, the Right Hon. Gentleman had taken advan-
tage of these circumstances in the application of just
principles, where he was not likely to meet with opposi-
tion. But there was another principle not so early
acknowledged, of which Sir Robert Walpole and the
statesmen of his day were ignorant, but which was fully
developed and proved to demonstration by a great man
and a great writer, Dr. Adam Smith, and which was
soon after acknowledged to be a just principle be no less
an authority than William Pitt—the principle that there
ought to be no protective duties—that in endeavouring
to protect certain branches of manufactures. or certain
classes of industry, they were, in fact, doing injury to
one part of the community for the apparent benefit of
another; but that after all this benefit was but an appa-
rent benefit, because that very class itself, on behalf of
whom they committed this injustice, on behalf of whom
they deprived the consumer of articles he would wish
to buy, that very class itself was injured in the
long run by that species of legislation.—(Hear, hear.)
But this, though a sound principle, and approved by the
greatest writers, and acknowledged by Mr. Pitt, Lord
Grenville, and Mr. Huskisson, and all who had taken a
part in the commercial legislation of the country, who
were worthy the name of statesmen, was not like the
former principle in not being liable to opposition or
easily admitted by all classes of the community. On
the contrary, whenever a change of that kind was pro-
posed, they always found a fierce and violent struggle
on the part of the protected interest, who maintained
not only that itself and all belonging to it, but that the
nation itself was interested in that particular branch of
national industry.—(Hear, hear.) But though the
truth of this principle was acknowledged, all sound
writers and wise statesmen advised that caution and
deliberation should be used in doing avvay with those duties.
In fact, there were no laws on the subject—it was not a
fit matter for legislation. If they found a person to
commit a fraud or act of felony, it was quite fit to legis-
late and punish if they could, in order to prevent such
crimes. But when a man was toiling from morning until
night, in order to produce a piece of manufacture, which
he wished to exchange for some other article in order to
support himself and family—such an act was worthy of
all praise and approbation, and ought not to be inter-
fered with by legislation.—(Hear, hear, from the Oppo-
sition.) How perverted was that spirit of legislation,
which turned from a great deal of crime and vice, which
it was unable to prevent, tried to discourage industry,
to interfere with the natural exchange of productions,
and to control that desire by which men were actuated
to earn an h,locs.. livelihood ?—(Hear, hear.) if those
were just principles of legislation, and if the opinions of
those great men whom be had mentioned were right, it
ought to be the object of a person enlightened as the
Right Hon. Baronet professed to be and really was, to
endeavour to break down those restrictions, to reduce
and abolish those unjust monopolies, and, with all care
and caution, restore a inure natural condition of society.
With respect to sugar did the Right Hon. Baronet in-
terfere in any way to promote, or bring about, a just
plan of legislation?—(" Hear, hear," from the Opposi-
tion.) On the contrary, did he not propose to continue
by the law he brings in this year, a total prohibition
against certain countries, who sent us sugar at a cheaper
rate than that obtained from our own colonies? The
Right Hon. Gentleman proposed to do this by maintain-
ing the present .prohibition, and the only ground for
such a restriction was, that the sugar was the produce of
slave colonies. He did think that the Right Hon. Ba-
ronet should have proceeded on something more solid
than on that pretence of his.—(Hear, hear.) Supp,se
that the negotiator (whose name he did not know) who
had been sent froth-Brazil to Germany should come hete
on his return, proposing to admit sugar from Brazil, he
would naturally say, " You have no objection to admit
slave-grown coffee, slave-grown cotton, or slave-grown
tobacco—(Hear, hear)—none in the world. You have
no objection to admit oter 9rti(.l"s which :-Irc F lave- ,
co-rov.o, u.. 4 , veil vdci, re.pt,,,,, LU 0,:g4, 1L.t.11, }']iii
have no objection to send your manufacturei '
. .
to &sail, . wad briDg sugar bra, laud th 4,4 w ,

•
return for that sugar sent again to foreign countries,
take from those countries, as from Russia, for instance,
hemp, tar, and timber.—e' Hear, hear," from the orpo•
sition.) It is much the same to do this as to consual
the sugar itself. I understand that, last year, thouge
you had scruples with regard to the sugar of Brazil, yeerf
orders in Council admitted the slave-grown produce 0_
other countries." Then, for instance, vou would say I'
him, " We admitted sugarfrom Venezuela, we may freely
admit coffee, cotton, and tobacco, though slave-geow—
That you and that we have imported Venezuelian sugar.
and indirectly encouraged slave-grown sugar, the P!°'
duce of other countries, but we have scruples ghat
prevent us from consuming slave-grown sugar. WI,
would the Brazilian Ambassador stay to this?-e-on /
laugh in your faces. He had heard the Right Ilen'
Gentleman say that he did not intend that this arrange:
ment of the sugar duties should be perpetual, and thhate
he would continue the same mode of imposing eta,
duty on that article. The Right Honourable s.,
.ronet well knew that as long as the duties co
tinued in their present condition the question woined
be continually discussed in that House, der
if not introduced by the Chancellor of the Excheqaue.
would be brought under their notice by other Ifse,
Members. With respect to the sacrifice of 1,300,00 es
he did really think, without going to the extent of said
ing that sugar, the prodere of foreign countries, shea
be admitted on the same terms as that of our own ean°l4
nies, that great alterations might be made, and a griey
approach to free trade principles, at the same time 11150/
taining the revenue. He did not see that there seas tie
cause for abandoning so large a portion of the revenset,
With respect to the plan proposed by the Governme 4
proposing the reduction of nearly the whole amoune er
surplus revenue, to within 70,000/ of the 300,0001-
nee
400,0001. which we possessed, they put, in its stead, eye
income-tax, or, under such circumstanctss in ors
words of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, "three I
hence we will have no alternative but to continue ,t,,b°
income-tax, or be in a state of national insolvency eye
(Hear, hear.) He did not think it fair towardsecir
House to propos* such a question without theedee,
ration of the Government as to their intention, and tee
ther it be their opinion that this property andincorade-55,
is one of the best resources which can be propose: elf
permanent revenue. This would lead the House 'slider
to the consideration of the case, and they would eons
or
at the same ti e, either through s Select Committee
of
in a Committee of the whole House, whether soieepol
the great injustice and inequaliti' s of that tax 10'0 the
be remedied. With regard to commercial reforea . lit
Right Hon. Gentleman hesitated to adopt the lige.
principle, not indeed when it could be done in an sgeeel
able and easy manner, but when they knew they *epe•
have to contend with class interests and with In°,loe,
lists, and when great opposition was expected.---e"ete
hear.) The Government ought well to consider theo;
jest, and what the true interests of the country there;
and they should not, at all events, endeavour to agesit
vete the monopolies which at present existed roe
view was, that they msst indeed continue the i ail
tax for the present, but that they should not
hose cialos.
the reductions which the Right Honourable might
net proposed. He thought ose reductions IneTtli
be made on cotton-wool and glass, but tbelo
respect to the other articles, some of a 0 to
he thought ought not to be touched -at.-all ; an Hite a
sugar, and some other articles, he would take ririestal
different course. His impres-ion was, as he had tete,
said, that protection was the bane of agriet;dea
(Hear, hear.) He maintained that opinion as rig art
all protective duties. Mr. Huskisson, some Yea as to
showed how injurious it was to silk • and in Cans eselt
timber duties, which operated so favourably tn‘tete
our colonists there, had been, according to the; ide
ment of Mr. Macgregor, the ruin of many faraiLe be
speculated largely in timber. At the same with
admitted admitted that those protective duties should eedasolf
drawn gradually and cautiously, rather than asl.? elef
and abruptly ; but of this he felt confident, that ist PP
wished to get rid of the income-tax, they taiteeetesd
this mode of endeavouring to improve and „,.'-) ,i,'
the resources of the country.--(Hear, bear.'
more markets were opened, and if we ~ isoali
ted larger imports, the demand for 151a0%, ta,s;
increase, manufactures would greatly exteljeserw,-
at the end of five or six years more, we might e,,"" 'll,'
hopes that the income-tax would be abolished' a] ite
question was, whether we were to have a porPe trictioo
come-tax and a continuance of monopoly and ree ibiliti:
—he exclaimed against both. He felt the miff
under existing circumstances, of withholding h in 11
it; from the proposition which the Chairman ha al a°
hand ; but with the hope that the income-tax o..nit fine'
be converted into a permanent burden. The i/Ilt veCeL
Gentleman bad taken such a course, as to mol 0"a tin
sary that this tax should be renewed' at the end -ne te:a
years, and so on from time to time; but he did how b 0
the pressure of this odious and inquisitorial es tad
opened the eyes of the people to the disadvantagoelie6'
suffered from commercial restrictions and IVe adze'
and by seeking to make trade free, procure gretnitiae
tages—not the least of which would be the On id be re'
an impost which, in times of peace, never shoosorted to.—(Loud cheers.) eta°
,Mr. ROEBIJOie: was disappointed at the coe4s sili
: ,of atiee'meechhe Noble Lord, which he thi.°.ll,iTeel
ieWtaeent con iision.—(Heses, hear, from the NI,I.Let, lt
. . firtsehhet. )wili teh ohil t reviewedfadop ting envneryy
diteenmideidn theenußrsta;.etoTivlr
Noble Lord knew well enough that the income:000;
three years was only a phrase of the Right Litraet, 1
but
hB Baronet's—the two
onuehlted' s
would—prtoh epostrot Noble
oat
l ai
skLteionrtcdht
ek
antenwehnitdehmaLet
nnirttd,maaeana
debt ibree les
ob e °red;
the Noble Lord ivould vote with him, as be Ole Oef
fel
press it to a division. He believed the Right Llnile; ,
tleman did not act as he thought, and that he „Po' el:
as much in a right direction as he thought he f'''a in
able to carry through both Houses. The itialie b:i
Baronet knew and appreciated the princiPde'ter
.A.
failed in applying it.—(Hear, hear.) He waseeel;
by the Hon. Members by whom he was sue had lei,
He would ask the Right Hon. Baronet, role%
abridged his estimate for the expenses of the a of 10's
altered his position in that regard from thaSserte
year? He would not ask the Right Hen' eitital;
what equivalent had this country gained by ,T. avow
in its immense colonial establishment, but u'iridor°'
say it should be matter for grave and serious CO'
tion for this House, whether the country cle;;toiolbe
equivalent for the expenditure incurred by mama 00
their colonial establishmente—(Hear, bear)'' &his 5,,et
House should determine upon a continuation °so) eeh'ef
colony, or this empire, so extensive that "thete 0 ter" a.
sots on its limits,'' as the phrase went, whY eeeelititeest
should pay for their indulgence in this expense Oor°'lo
As to the amount which the Right Wen; esei.,',s;
said he would require for the expenses or tue'rfo
cad
ge'st
stating that amount he had said the te tee - a
stations at which the principal naval eriee eeel
to be maintained, were China, •Ani )fv/Le-eil
the West Coast of Africa. Now he (gr. p.sve"ip
pass by two of them and come to the most elPia giirio,
dangerous, that of West Africa ; and he `you the —bi
reference to that part, that all the efforts - ewes. of
Baronet to put down the slave tiade in that (la eiga.i,
the right of search project had total!' end in Ito
failed, and would end in disaster to all eng°geer bra V
(Hear, hear.) Now, he would come to ite°rb jests. oi-
of the question ; and assuming the expenses d bo et it
the Right Hon. Bar. met to he necestary,eaneoe wheoa
mates correct, he (Mr. R.) would a-k the -Y,' ? it his)
was the Honourable Baronet proposed to uney 11,847,
this, he proposed to meet the definie,Pear 'teat
he said would be felt up
•to the aup teed.
by the continuation of the income tax i 5:000t;;00
time, or, in other words. that he went° beet eeles
but he (Mr. Roebuck) would say it was inclio tbisholi
the Right Hon. Baronet to show the House ttie by floe
a legitimate expenditure ; and that the eae,a better etli
he proposed to raise this sum was not mild presaa ee
a plan to which he (Mr. Roebuck) w°l•l,,et cola'eeoe
allude, but was better than any other pion.'" ogee "i'les
devised. The night Hon. Baronet further ee
the House to remit or abolish certain taxes 'is 5,0 f,O
of commerce. Now he (Mr. Roebuck) aaattioati ortsbston,aes
the Right Hon. Baronet's plan of increaseabLat the ,e7O
onerous, obnoxious, and mischievous, and ""bt to not
about to be remitted were not those that olSoda felt
moved. In fact, the Right lion. 13,51:0 hadeeft
amounted to simply this—that with one " ev,..--(_evtedf
taxes off, and with the other he put thar° OS it
hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet said he oko
in fact, two millions, while he levied five ; but
oula ten ilti
to be either sum, he (Mr. Roebuck) c lies_ it.
there vela ea
Right Honourable Baronet that
mod cop
lee teat
honest, honourable, and equitable nio _tad be rtioe
That the income-tax was an unequal text proPfeell
proved. No man ought to be taxed lA' se eolliu, also
to his power to pay ; and his power to Pe/ it we' teo
be ascertained by his sources of incoroe•
__,,ea need ~,
quite clear that a man whose income derevl be t°-711./..
fluctuations of professional labour should nu one, sif 0 of
of a man who derived his income from
_k• two riot%
the same amount, though his income be he
sool:oast:0. ie
a fee.simple estate.—(Hear, hear.) T'',`, vsau dfooerst
those different positions ; suppose efiLsieeal 'woe,
1,000/. income as the result of his proeee estee aebote
for one year ; and take another with ec
. t resent the"'taki4
of income in the same year from lan ,s, affirm
yidsthe, _
on the Exchange, and he (Mr. R.) Ilan ease dere„,,etts!
both men to be forty years of age each, he a; reit eeat
income from the land would get tweritvnee
-, -uld o(44ci ti°
for it, where the professional man a , aess bee
hear./ ? the 4
farthing of the money.--( stveti°" 0 Old giv
qualityt hink
income-tax
cboe2..
call attention to the mode in which
~,lios the 00e
and here, let him say that he did n ''
so eesso a•inaed I!
ittinganilitahot.
thes litaex Nov•tio°_ ileolipeilli
of this country should be subjeeted to e eovi oat
, Be was ds,
.'wet
was a system.—(l-learq •sisorial, ° beilt 'wet
was looked upon and felt as ieransi lee did tese exceed
almost unendurable.— (Hear, hear-) , eiseaeowootevaot
the oath of a party as to the amount " ee
d not AC were ed
to be sufficient ; and surely it woo, zeglan" deeo3o
for that the morals of the people I
could la"t ba it •1-
so low an ebb as that this
°in looked sire igloos.
sufficient.—(Hear, hear.) lib
it the c)(3l°ll6' (liefirsj•
the best and safest course; and
Hon. Baronet tike 0 s
But, suppose the Right ? To te ets i ef
to de
what next did he purpose
rnercial 011_0._ 4111
torial system at present used woulrYd,mbeet sovoenidtinedv.---effttiait;f;
lion of' taxation on certain cons .
i_e the d
ctar fe iiti
doing that he had proposed to ,tea_t:wbee be Pee t e_
about four hundred different aruct: interestoiolri;
avoided touching any of theh g
-d left that gstalfi he
country.—(Hear, hear.) He :e , „ wore ,_„„ea..,,
of evil standing, to be removed aiteoebeek).atisa" eta;
hands—(hear, hear)— but he (Mr. 'those crYiis'eerS;l
would see the day soon come, whent
away,
,e 0 eel °f
the monopolists, would be u
7elititiral and the Pt; ese
Those great evils were the agri kor.) The
ht et
ea
interests in this country—(Hear,hnd of the Rigretet
Bthaartoneat,
these was glanced over by the a , liege Arta (6':01
Afi•ritsht-raatteoucharttishte mnonst.ialo,cine,....i-erel,prr.flht:ii.
_itli:`
ebeera rine leetell'ee e 'Mail" tr' '
.I.__(iiteii";sjobr.
co '-
The agricalturists had a prodomi
~
sue gos,
in a 1.6:-.Lriel' boila,l4c, il.,,te aci.,nrallini"guiniquen , ...
lbw; 544 whet woo Of leuPage Ve . -
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