The Sun.
London, England, 1818-05-09 00:00:00

COTTON WOOL.

Mr. HORNBY, from Preston, and Mr. CANNING, front
Liverpool, presented Petitions against :oblitional duties on
Cotton %Voul.—Ordered to lie o❑ the table.
RIRI3AND WEAVERS. •

Nfr. PETER MOORE brought np the Report of ev.d.•nce
on the Petitions of the Ribband Weavers.—Ordered to he uit
the table.

WATCHMAKERS.

On the motion of Mr. MOORE, the Watch and Clock-
makers Bill was read a first time.—`fecund reading fixed for
Thursday next..
A Petition from Dumfriesbire was presented against the
Scotch Lunatic Bill.—Ordered to lie on the table.

Mr. LESLIE FOSTER brought in the Bill for regulating
the Trust purchases of entailed Estates in Ireland.—Read
first time. Second reading fixed for the lath of May.

CROWN LANDS.

On the Order of the Day for the first reading of
the Brecknock Forest Inclosure Act being read,
Mr. F. DOUGLAS took the opportunity of ad-
verting to what had fallen from an Hon. and
Leatned Friend (Mr. Brougham) of his, when
the Bill was last before the House. As he (Mr.
D.) was not in his place on that occasion, he
spoke horn report ; and he thence learned, that
some imputations of jobbing and favouritism
wet e thrown out against the 1)1 edecessors of the
Right Hon. Gentleman holding the office or Sur-

veyor.Gentral of Woods ail _Forests. 'Connect-tit
as he was with a Noble relative Who hail pre-
ceded that Right Hon:Gentleman in that depart-
ment, he called upon him, if any ground Of-charge
existed, to bring ittforward in a substantive.usan..
tier before the House. lie could not help
some staprise, from the terms of friendship and.
intercour--e on which he had the honour Of living'
with his Hon. Friend, that he had not -reeeived.
from him some previous information of his listen.:
tions on the subject.
Mr. Mint:GUAM begged to assure his Honour
aide Friend, that the .subject itself came before
Lira quite suddenly Ile had no intention Of
speaking on it at that moment, but for the occa-
sion presented by the Bill of the Right lion. Gen-
tleman. Ile had made no charge against the
predecessors of the Right Holt. Gentleman, the
Sorveyor•General of Woods and Forests, lie
could have made no charge against the Noble re-
lation of Isis Hon. Friend, as he did not know,
even then, that any of the transactions to which he
alluded had taken place during his administration
of the oilier. It was of the system, as he said
before, that he complained, %vide!, did not allow
tistse lands t 4 be disposed of by public compe-
tition.

Mr. liostcnssos: observed, that he had that
morning exHlnined • into the two transactions al-
luded to by the lion. and Learned thooleman—
the first respecting a sale to a Noble Lord, he
wonld name him, Lord lVestmorland ; and the se-
cond as to the purchase by Lord Lonsdale' of the
Barony of Kendal. Ou these ttvis purchases he
took oleo' himself to say, that the strictest :wen.
tion was paid to the puhlit interest. In tire fist
case, Lord Westmorland had the noqualifiet: right
of possession. That he held under a grant of a
very ancient existence its his family. lie held the
right of soil and of the wood. All that he had to
purchase from the Crown were certain fOrestal pri-
vileges, which, as they could only be of value to
the Lessee in question, would have been wholly
unproductive at a public sale. As to the Barony
of Kendal, it had been for two centuries in the
family of Lord Lansdale, though at the period of
purchase it was dependent on a- single life. 'The
sonOunt arising front dry finesand gait • rents did not
exceed 3001. per aonum.—When about to be sold,
it was tendered to Lord Lonsdiale, and purchased
by him for 14,0001.—A sum which no man would
pay for it but the Lessee in possession, as that
Noble Lord was. He (Mr. H.) would go farther,
end say, that it was but justice to give a person
in that situation tire right of pre•tuintion. It was
done so recently in the case of an Honourable
Gentleman, the Member for Band.
Mr. BROUGHAM said; that Ire should bring tire
sulkct again forward; arid give notice for the pro-
duction of all correspondenee respecting thOse
salts, particularly the correspondence with the
Surveyors, whose estimate was received. Ile
never imputed any blame to the Lessees in pos-
session for making the best brrgain they could:—
It was to tire system that he oblecied. . .
Col. Lout-Tli stated that there did not exist any.
grounds for the insinuations thrown ont against
the purchaser in the sale of the Barony of KendaL
The Bill was then read a first time. *Second
reading fixed for Wednesday next.
IRIS!! FISHERIES.
Mr. PEEL gave noiice of his intention to move
on Wednesday next fun a Committee of the whole
House, to take into conshK/atimt the various
Laws respecting the Fisheries in Ireland.
PRIVILEGE.
• 4
Mr. WYNNE expressed a desire to submit a :no-
tion respecting Mr. Fergnsson, a prisoner in";siew-
gate, for an undue interference in Elections.
'the CussceLLoa of the Excumusainterpos-
ed, and put it to tire Home whether the subject
should not be postponed until the. MemberS Were
ill possession of tire minutes of evidence.
Lord A. HAMILTON said, he held in his hands a
Peti,ion.from Mr. Ferguston, praying; for his li-
beration, which ire had intended to present in the
event of his Hon. Friend's (Mr. Wynne) motion
being carried.
Mr. ‘VYNN 8 presented the Report of Evidence,
and there the subject dropped.
ADJOURNAIENT.
On the motion of the Cita s ceeton of the Ex.
ciieaur.:u, the House was ordered, at its rising,
to adjutants till Wednesday.
F.Dut.vrtoN OF THE PoOR.
Mr. Baouonam rose to bring forward the Bill
for the better Education of the Poor. The Hon.
Gentleman, at some length, made a variety of
observations on the evidence taken before the
Committee. There waS no cousiderable town
throughout the kingdom, in which ten thou-
sand inhabitants were to be found, that • So-
cieties were not established • for this very
Praiseworthy object. He strongly urged it on
the attention of the House; that if Parliament
were to vote sums annually, the private subscrip-
tions would relax, because the Public would think
the necessity for subscribing no longer existed..
All that was required from Parliament was a
proper school-house in each town any thing be-
yond that would be prejudicial. The. Hon. Gen-
tlernan read from a report taken in the reign of
Queen Anne an account of tine expence of edit-
eating 4752 children, which amounted to 8,8001.
in the present day, the expence for educating
the same number, would, on a fair estimate,
amount to no less a sum than front SI. to Jl.
per head, whereas its the reign of Anne, the
average was not more than 305." per head. The
Committee had ascertained in the course of their
enquiries, that the parents of the poorest in all
parts of the country had the most ardent desire to
benefit, by the instruction held out. They had
proceeded with activity ins their search, and in
the course of ten days they had received 6000 an-
swers. With respect to the difference in religious
opinions, each sect might establish its own school
in. large towns. Not so in small towns, for there
the minority of the inhabitants, if they happened
to be Dissenters, were to be excluded from the
benefit, but on the other baud, if the majority
were Dissenters, they admitted the Churchmen.—
[The Hon. Gentleman here complained of the
want of attention in the lloose.]—To remedy the
ekvtect of coueation in the remoter and less populous
districts of Eugland, the House would do well to
adopt the system of education pursued in Scotland,
p i.lischrsols. The late Air. Whitbread
and Mr. Windham bad made many observations

nn this part of the s.tibltct----.the Corti-ger, tsith
that unbounded philanthropy, viewed it in tepro•
per light,. while
.the latter, full paroiloxes, was
at variance with the progress of intellectual wisdom.
It was, he observed. owing to Charles the First
that the system of•l'arish Schools firstlook root
in Scotland. This way in 1630, but Was not
wholly perfected till 1692. In that cbuhrtyllre'
salary for the sehOolmaster was origihslly from
81. to 101. It now is nearly doubled. Ile thett
eulogized the blessings of these schot;ls, whit!),
produced men excellently educated. In what part
of the world Were Scotelonen not to'be found ?
What country was there which had mit benefited
by them ? lu Germany and Switzetiland they
,ettled, and disseminated the practice of industry ;'
and indeed in all other commies. When this
subject was brought under the consideration Of the
late Mr. Perceval, he said—" Wait till you have hail
a Committee, and then see what the resait of their
report msy be." This he bad now carried into effect,
and the House would be furnished with intorma•
lino on which to proceed, on a measure which,
sooner or later, he was Convinced the [lonise was to
adopt. The Min. Gentletnan then refer'r'ed to the
evidence takeu before the Committee in respect of
the fonds appropriated to charitable purpose`,
yr Lich, by the returns, smoothed to 260,0001. a
year in 1788 ; taking that the returns made only
were one-third, the actual amount wool!l he front
7 to 800,000/.. 'Dose funds were received by
Trustees ; hut there were other funds Mild) were
'not received by these Trustees, who had not sufli•
cient powers given them for the purposes of their
trost. Ile calculated, that if they had been pro-
perly authorized, the amount in the hands of the
Trustees, from the increased value of land, would
he from 2,000,0001. to 2,500;000/. The deficiency
arose from this' cause, and front neglect,
abuse, and other causes. He noticed the
statutes on the subject, and stated some facts
as -connected wi; h devises. In Berkshire, at
the Restoration, some lands were devised fur
charitable purposes, which cot 40001; In 1811,
the lands only produced 1961. a year. Would the
House believe that the trustees could thus neglect
their dirty to the benevolent object of their trust ?
Another estate was let !.or 4501. a years which a
surveyor estimate:l at 10001. In other places,
lands worth 20001; a year are let fat so many
hundreds. What is done with the produce cannot
be ascertained, for. the Corpotation refused to
slew their disbursements. In another instance,
Sir T. White left 24,0001. to be lent in cettssi
sums to poor tradestiten. Another Corporation
had, instead of lending the motley, taken it to
themselves, to pay their own debts. The [lon.
Gentleman detailed some other evidence, to prove
that various-abuses existed in the application of
the funds. In some instances monies were left,
and never received ; schools founded and endow-
ed; and no children taught. In others, 'schools
bad completely fallen into decay, though the funds
still remained. Those were in Devonshire, Es.
WI, Leicestershire, Nottisighanishire, Norfolk, &c.
In respect of the neglect imputable to the Trusts,
be quoted die opinion 'of Lord Kenyon in the case
of Stapleford Abhott. Ile called upon the Houie to
interfere, and Incorrect these evils. To thOSe Who
were inclined to clamour, and to say that be was
about to encroach upon and to meddle with pri-
vate property, he wished to observe, that these
Charities were not private property, they were
as much public property as any thing else which
was given for the support of the poorer class of
the subjects of these realms. lie referred to the
Statutes in support of his position-, particularly
the 26th of the ItThig, which completely recog-
nized Charitable Institutions as in the light of
public property. With respect to the Urtiversis
ties, they were liable to enquiry.' Why, he asked,
could we not have Commissions to enquire into
the' state of Charitable Ins'titutions, as our hire-
fathers had ? From Queen Elizabeth's reign
there were 900 Cononissions fur this impose
down to the present reign. From the beginning;
of the present reign to this time there Were only
three Commissions. It was said the Court of
Chancery was open to the correction of these
abuses. Would they send the poor into that
Court, who hail not a halfpenny, and were
rendered still poorer by the dilapidation of
their funds? It put him in mind of whit was
innocently said by Mr. Erskine, now Lord
,Erskine, and which prodoced no small merriment
amoug the Common Law Lawyers, when Lord
Kenyon told him the Court of Equity was open
to his client—'' would your Lordship send it fel-
low-creature there ?" A Commission, issued' iii
1803, to inquire into the ;those of a charity. In
1803 it was thrown into Chancery. In 1808 it
WAS thought ripe for decision, and well it might
be. It was four year§ standing at the head of
the paper, and it remained niaecided at this
day. He could not dismiss this subject with-
out expressing, as strongly us he could,
his admiration , of the nonsense sums• appro..
priated to chat itable uses ; not by men possessed
of estates equal to principalities ; not by men
who have amassed immense wealth in the service
of their country, and who wish to give back part
of their well-earned wealth, or to conipound with
theirconsciences for sums derived front less pure
sources ; but by honest anti industrious trades-
men, who, by the benefits of gdod edtication, had
raised themselves to situations they could not first
havi- expected, and had appropriated large sums
to the education of the poor. He then moved
that the House shOuld.go into the Committee on
the Education of the Poor.
Lord CASTLEREAG H said, lie did not rise to offer
any objection to the. motion ; and should support
the plait of the Hoo. and Learned Gentleman, to
whom he rave credit for haring the fairest and'
best disposition to produce a great and beneficial
effect by its operation. He should not, there-
fore, trouble the House with many observatiohs.
He knew that in the course of tithe aboses must
grow op in those institutions. %Vilest there were
great numbers of institutions, no doubt abuSes
would exist ;• and unless a vigilant inquiry was
always continued, they could not be prevented from
taking place. But the very comtnissiou proposed by
the Hon. and Learned Gent. windd be subject to
the delays he bad spoken of as existing in the
Court of eltancePry. It Was to that Court they must
ultimately look up for the correction of abuses :
for it would-be iinposSible that a conmaision of
inquiry could erect itself into e. Court, of Chan-

eery. Tie was sure that the 'g'rct:teit `possible.
good would arise from the inquiry, if it even did
no more than that of calling public attention to
this important sub:it-Ct. lie agreed, with the
Learned Gent let,: 1n that the funds were public
property; but as they were originally private pro-
perty, and destined by will to particular objects,
they were so far private property, which "as not
the case with Crown lands ; and it would be for
Parliament to see that they should he stiictly ap-
plied to such purposes. The best precedent the
/louse could adopt in this instance, would be to
hollow the Acts for appointing similar Commissions
in Ira:land. The last commission was carried on by
persons who_ received no 'remuneration whatever ;
here the case was . different, and the commission
would be 'attended' with great expellee, because it
was not to be expect& that men should devote
their time and labour in such an arduous under-
taking without remuneration. But he tin it
would add greatly to the weight and eflicacf of
the commission it some perons of high station
were added to it, without receiving any remune-
ration; at the Same tune that they should 00( be
required to enter Sc) much into the laborious du-
ties of the office as the other Commissioners. Ile
wished the Bill might now be committed, "the
blanks filled up, and the report again considered
after the holidays. With_ regard to the Universi-
ties, he agreed that they ought to be excepted ;
and he must say, that nobody- cotnplained of any
buses existing there. Time Was an excellent
institution, where it was admitted on all liana
that no abuse existed ; he meant the Charter-
house ; anti that place he should propose to except
front the BT.

Mr. BROUqUAM shortly explained.
Mr. FOSTER supported the Bill, as far snit pro-
ceeded upon the principle of the precedent adopted
with respect to the Irish Comoristioners, to the
efficacy of whose labours he bore the fullest tes-
timony.
Mr. F. RODINON wished the school of Harrow
to be included in the exemption from the opera-
tion of this Act, arguing upon •its character hav-
ing been exempted from all blame in a late recent
inquiry respecting the appropriation of its hinds. .
BROUGHA:4 said, the face of its having been
impeached spewed there had been 30tlie ground
to.suspeet it had been misconduct ed.
Mr. PEEL argued in favour of his lion. Friend
(Mr. Robinson) for, the exemptioi of Harrow,
and stated that on that occasion it had been proved
to be the Will of the flinde'r, Mr. Lyon, not to
confine the purposes of the school to the educe-
tiou of the iteighbOarritig poor.
Mr: Airiecerimitie hoped the ComMiXtioners
would' be allowed to makethe'Circitit"of the coun-
try, to enquire into all Charities., He oficcted tO
the Comiliisiionerilrer4Barristiu-saetnally prac-
tising ; as there were' silffieient'GrUleinen, who
had received a legal education, but did not actually
practice at'the' Bar,
Lord CASTLEitiAGII and Mr. Arskacaomnie ex-
plained. • _ „
Sir J. NEWPORT stated some circinns'ancei re-
lative' to the Act .of' ISOG, for a siMilar. inquiry
in 'lreland: He' had 'the. honour of introduck4
that Bill. No exception of any school was Made
in that 11;11, nor in the' Bill of 17S8.
Mr. BkovoirAm explained as to•the expenses of
the proposed COmmissim:s. If these Comtnis;.
sioners should be the means of recovering large
sums, he knew nothing more fain than that the
Commissioners Should be remunerated from the
funds so recovered ; therefore the public would
only be obliged to advance to the CommisSioners,
aml might atterwards be repaid from the funds.

The house "then resolvra•irself into the Com-
mittee on the Bill.

Mr. RoßEssoN proposed that the ILirrow School
be exempted from the operation of the Bill.

Alter a few observations from Mr. BRouottAm,
Sir J. MACINTOSH, and Sir T. ACLAND,

Mr. MILLS prolinsea that the Free School at
Rkhy be also exempted.—(Laughter )
Mr. BENNET moved that the Shrewsbary Free
School he exempted.—(Laughter ) _ _

Mr. IlaavEY asked the same favour for that at
Norwich.—(lnereased Laughter.)

Sir M. W. RIDLEY claimed it for the Free School
at .Newcastle, as it had produced such great men
as the Lord Chancellor and his brother.—
(Laughter.)
Lord CArrt.tay.AG:n was disposed to exempt the
Harrow and Rugby Schools, but not to extend
the exemption further.
Alter a few words front Mr. LOCKHART,
Mr. BRoUGHAM rejoiced that there were not
more Members present, otherwise the proposed
exemptions would be ten times more numerous
that) they were.
The Committee then divided on Mr. Rozirt-
Sotes motion—

For exempting the !farrow School 4O
Against it
Mijority against the Motion —93

On being re-admitted, the Lord Advocate, Mr.
Brougham, and Lord Binning were foumiconvers.-
ing respecting the propriety .of the mea-
sure to Sco

The House then resumed, and the Report was
received, and ordered to be taken Into cOtisiderit
Lion next Friday, and to 'be printed.

On Mr. BROUGH M's motion, illStrtlCooll9 were
ordered to be given to the'Committe'e on Eltrea.
t ion, to inquire into the State of the Edueat ion of
the Poor in Scotland ; and. the house 'agreed to
resolve itself into a Committee of the %%hole
I-louse, on the salaries to he granted' to the'Com-
missioucts, next Wednesday.