The Sun.
London, England, 1842-03-10 00:00:00

who had any experience oithe system pursued in the country
knew that the practice of granting leases of land had materially
declined since 1815. Land was row too frequently let from
year to year, and leases were general in but comparatitively
few districts. This was a change which he considered most
injurious. Those valuable papers published in the useful
journals of the Agricultural Society of Englard, and the High-
land Society of Scotland, which appeared in them a few years
ago, describing the great improvements that had taken place in
the course of half a century, in Scotland, Northumberland,- nd the
North of England traced the superiority, as he believed cor-
rectly, to the practice of granting leases in those parts.
How indeed was it possible that could be improved by the oc-
cupiers, unless those who laboured had the stimulus of their
own interest to actuate and encourage their enterprise and
energy and capital by having security for their reward in
leases from their landlords ?—( Hear, hear.) He appealed to
those who were in the habit of travelling about the country,
whether they could not, by the state of agriculture in particu-
hr districts, distinguish those where the practice of granting
leases was common from those where it was not.?—( Hear.)
He now would say, as one interested in lan,l, it was of most
essential advantage that they should come to a speedy settle-
ment of the law on the importation of foreign corn, for this
question' should no longer be left in doubt and agitation. He
felt that he had perhaps exceeded the limits of the observations
which he has intoned to address to the House.-.--( Hear, hear,)
He meant to add one or two other points which he should not
now touch upon. He would therefore conclude by simply en-
treating lion. Gentlemen opposite, more especially those inte-
rested in land, to believe him when he asserted most unfeign-
edly, that in advocating his present views he was actuated by
no motive whatever except a desire to promote what he be-
lieved was the best interest of the land, and of every other
department in this kingdom.—( Hear, hear, hear.) In
corroboration of this assertion, and to show that he was
actuated by no party motive, he need only refer
to his conduct, since he had had the honour of a seat in Parlia-
ment. When he first came into the House, the Oa-it-law
question took up much of their time, and was a great topic of
deba'e amongst them. In 1827 and 1828 Hon. Gentlemen
would recollect that measures were proposed by the Govern-
ment of the Duke of Wellington and the Earl of Liverpool; that
both those measures passed, and that one of them was now the
law of the land. In one of those years he thought they wen
in a minority of only 16, and in the other year of 26. These
were the small minorities by which the principle was then sup-
ported ; from that time to the present, in office and out of
office, he had invariably supported the same policy. He had
invariably, both by his votes and his arguments, supported the
policy of giving greater freedom to the trade in corn, and ;of
abolishing those restrictions which were imposed byan existing
law. So much for the motives which had actuated him. Now
he only had to say, with reference to the vote which he was
this evening about to give, that if he conceived that, by the vote
which he was ping to give in favour of the amendment of his
Noble Friend, he should be understood as voting in favour of
the existing Corn-laws, in preference to the plan which had
been proposed by her Majesty's Government, most
undoubtedly. he should not vote for the amendment

Report of the Inspector of Factories in Lancashire (Mr. Hor-
ner). This document, he believed, had been referred to the
Right Hon. Baronet opposite (Sir James Graham), but un-
luckily before the document was published. He (Mr. C.
Buller) must say that great credit was due to Mr. Horner for
having taken the trouble of this examination in towns and dis-
tricts, which it was his duty to inspect, and which had thrown
so much light on the state of the factories, and showed what
really was the state t f employment in the manufacturing coun-
tiesdrawn from the reading of that document appeared to him ; and he (Mr. C. Buller) must say that the conclusion
per-
fectly appalling, when they considered it with re.fe•
rence to the condition of the people. In the first place
he (Mr. Horner) had put the distress of the manufacturing
districts in a very clear and statistical light. He had given
three different factories. He had calculated the power in each
manufactory, and he calculated the amount of persons the fac-
tory could employ if in full work, and he gave the result in one
table. In &nether table he gave the actual result. He showed
what amount of power was worked, and what amount of human
labour was employed; Mr. liorner's district only compre-
hended
.Lanc shire, and his remarks applied not to the cotton
trade merely—it. applied to all trades more or less. It
applied to silks less than to cotton, but it applied to
woollens and flax more than to cotton. rile amount
of persona who con d be employed, and were not employed
was not less than 29,800 ; who were working short time, and
consequently diminished wages, was not less than 32,000. Now
taking the two, those working on short employment, and those
Not employed at all, and putting them together, the people who
were -suffering from distress in the manufacturing districts,
could not rate at less than 61,00. Now the whole employ-
ment of the people in the manufacturing districts was about
233,000 persons, so that nearly one-third of the manufacturing
population was out of employment. Now he was aware that
there was one objection to be raised to this. He was aware
that the employment of steam power had partly caused this
want of employment (as we understood.) The Right
Hon. Baronet had stated that, since the year 1839,
not less than ninety-one new ccotton m lit alone
had been established. He (Mr. C. Buller) was aware that
when the Right Hon. Baronet alluded to that document it
hail not been made public, but he believed that he (the Right
Hon. Baronet did not intend to deal unfairly with that House.
The Right Hon. Baronet had mentioned 2l mills, which em-
ployed 3,350 horse-power. He (Mr.. C. Buller) thought it
was proper to mention that 3,350 fresh horse-power called into
existence caused 6,783 persons to be thrown out of employ-
ment. Was it not appalling to that House and to the country,
that nearly 50,000 persons were totally desetute of employ-
ment, and taking those that were working short time no less
than 32,000 ? Was this not horrible ? He must say that this
Report of Mr. Horner was a most valuable one, and but for
that document he should not have been able to go into this
subject. But it was not necessary for him to dwelt on the sub-
ject, to harrow up the feelings of that House by a description
of the details of the distress which existed, and which he
(Mr. C. Buller) alto 'bitted principally to theresent Corn-laws.
Mr. Horner stated that the principal way in which dis-
tress was caused, was by the sub-tuition of machinery for
manual labour; if that was the ease, the consideration was
terrible, because it was manifest if that was the principal cause
it was not a temporary distress. He would not abandon his
opinions for the sake of his argument, and he should say that
he believed that improvements in machinery would be of ser-
vice to the country in the long run, but then it should be with
free trade.—(Hear, and cheers from the Opposition.) No
doubt improvements in machinery would tend to the benefit of
the country, but if the application of that machinery caused
such general distress, come what prosperous times there might,
so much injury had been done to the m inufacturing Teeple who
had been thrown out t f employment by those improvements in
machinery, and by the application of that machinery—many of
those persons who had been working at high wages were new,
in consequence of the increased power of machinery, working
at extremely low wages--so low that they were called " Cy-
phers" by their fellow labourers. By Mr. Horner's Statistical
Reports it appeared where machinery was employed in various
manufacturing towns that one man was now doing the work
which it required four men to do some few years ago. In
Manchester the work which formerly required upwards of a
hundred men to do, was now done by thirty-three men. In
one instance, which Mr. Horner stated, it appeared that by
the improvement in machinery the labourers, in a particular
establishment which he named, were reduced from 530 to 258
men ! It was quite true that some of those workmen who
were retained had increased wages; but, in that particular
establishmen to which Mr. Horner alluded, there were 72 men
thrown out of employment; and what comparative advantage
could there be from the increase of wages given to one or two
persons, while such a vast nnmbes as 72 out of 300 men were
thrown out of employment.—( Hear.) He did not dwell upon
those facts merely because they were statistical returns, but be-
cause it appeared to him that the change which was being
csu ed by the increase of machinery was a fatal change.—
( Hear.) He would not say that the increase of machinery was
a fatal change in a sound state of trade ; but he said that it was
fatal if the people of the country did not get employment.—
(Cheers.) One very bad effect of substituting machinery for
manual labour, was the tendency to create an ever-supply. It
was said that it was more advisable to work by machinery for
some time even at a lass, than to let the progress of machinery
stand. In Lancashire the manufacturers found it better to
work their mills even at a loss, than not work them at all by
machinery; and Sir Horner said that the use of cotton in
these manufactures had gone on increasing to such an ex-
tent th .t the manufacturers were enabled to pay themselves
by increasing the quantity of goods in the market.
[Sir R. Peel here made some observations across the table.
l'he Right Hon. Baronet asked what had the statements he
(Mr. Buller) was then making to do with the Corn-laws ?
(" Hear, hear," forom the Ministerial benches. )]—Undoubt-
edly they had everything to do with the distress which prevailed
in the country. He did riot pretend to say that the Corn-
laws caused all that distress ; he did r ot, mean to say there
were not other Causes for it; but he thought there was a fatal
tendency in the state of society if the employment of capital
,vas not attended with remuneration. Then, he asked, were
the Legislature wise in increasing the d:ffieulties of trade, and
diminising the profits of the manufacturers of the country ?
The Right lion. Baronet said very distinctly that his object
in introducing that Bill was not to diminish the price of corn
for the manufacturer ; but the Right Honourable Baronet said
his object was to keep up the price of corn between
545. to 583. a quarter

( Hear, hear) —he should, on the contrary, support
the measure proposed by her Majesty's Govern-
ment, because, as he had already said, he considered it
a mitigation, and an important mitigation, of the restriction
now in force on the trade in corn. Rut he conceived that the

House, by its. proceedings, had already pledged itself to make
some Change in the law, and he, therefore, believed that the
effect of the vote he was about to give would merely he to de-
clare that the principle on which her Majesty's Government
had proceeded to amend the existing law was not, in his (Lord
Howick's) opinion, satisfactory. Ile by no means thought
that the form in which this question had been brought to issue
was on the whole by any means the best that could have been
adopted. If tie (Lord H.) had had any voice in the matter he
should have preferred that the House should have agreed,
without a division, to the second reading of this Bill, and that in
Committee an amendment should have been moved, embodying,
as far as the rules of the House would admit, such clauses
as should bring the Bill to that shape in which it ought to
stand. He thought that would have been the best course.
But as the proceedings had been drawn out to such a length,
and that as there was now to be a discussion, it would be
highly inexpedient that he should propose another plan and
another division in this stage ; he wished to avoid giving this
trouble, and exposing the public business to unnece,sary de-
lay.—( Hear hear.) As he was unavoidably absent in the
preliminary discussion on the subject, and as this was the
first opportunity which had been afforded him of expressing
by speech, and recording by vote, the opinions he had so long
entertained, he had no course but to vote for the
amendment of his Noble Friend, and he had the
consolation of knowing that the number of those who
would follow the course of the Hon. Member for Wallingford
was so small, that there would not be much danger of the mea-
sure being lost in consequence of an alliance of parties enter-
taining conflicting opinions. He could assure the Bight Hon.
Baronet that if he saw the remotest danger of such a contin-
gency, ho should not be found in the minority.—( Hear, hear.)
With this explanation, and thanking the House for the atten-
tion it had given him, he begged to conclude by stating it to be
his intention to support the amendment of his Noble Friend.
Mr. PACKINGTON supported the second reading of the
Bill. He hopes that the discussion would not be further pro-
tracted; the House had already decided by an overwhelming
majority that Br itish ag: ieulture was entitled to protection,
and it had aTso decided that that protection should not be given
by a fixed duty. For his own part, he was decidedly averse to
a fixed duty. Mr. Hu-kisson was against it, Mr. Canning
was' against it, and the arguments even of the Nobly
Lord the Member for London were decidedly against it.
After the t iumphant manner in which the argument that the
manufacturers were ruined by the Corn-laws had been dis-
posed of by the Right Hon. Baronet, the First Lord of the
Treasury, he would not presume to occupy the House by again
going over the same ground, but he would just advert to the
most important branch of our manufactures, and he would
show that this had made the most rapid strides in prosperity
during the operation of those most abused laws. In 1820, the
declared value in the exports in cot on was 16,000,0001. ; in
1828, the tear when the laws were passed, it was 17,000,0110/.,
but, in 1839, it had reached to the extraordinary amount of
24,500,000/. Similar prosperity could be shown in other
branches.—(Tory cheers.) The House had decided against
the fixed duty, and that agriculture should have pro-
tection. The only question, therefore, was, what should
be the rate of the sliding scale? For his part, he
would give his decided support to the measure of the Go-
vernment, in which he placed the most unlimited coofid, nce.
When the Government dealt with a subject of such magnitude,
he thought it should be approached by all, and by its friends
especially, with a spirit of conciliation. He supported it be-
cause he believed it calculated to promote the interests of all
classes, and the Conservative party were content to accept it as
a just and fair settlement of the question. The Conservative
party, as a body, had not declared for a perfect adherence to the
existing laws, though there might be individual instances of it.
On the contrary, many of the warmest Conservatives had de-
clared their disapprobation of them. In alluding to the contro-
versy bet ween the manufacturers and the agriculturists, he ad-
mitted that the speech of the Hon. Member for Knaresborough
was quite peculiar ; but whatever might be said of what he
had told them, it seemed to have burst like .a rocket among
Hon. Gentlemen opposite. If the sufferings he had detailed
were true, they ought to rejoice in having them exposed. He
did not refer to this speech for any recrimination, but the
feelings and sentiments which had been uttered were totally
unworthy of that House, and were not calculated to pi e-
mote the interest of either party. He thought the prosperity
of the twe great parties were indissoluble. When
manufactures flourished, agriculture would flourish ;
and when agriculture prosperous,
was the manufacturers found
their principal market. Such were his feelings, and he hoped
that hereafter they would dispense with those discussions which
were, in his opinion, unworthy of both. He thought the agri-
culturists would benefit by the change made in the mode of
taking the averages. Under the whole system great scope was
given to fraud. But while he confessed that the agricultarists
would derive advantage from the change, he believed that the
commercial interest and the consumer would derive benefit.
The Noble Lord who had spoken last had complained of the
great fluctuations under the old law. Undoubtedly those fluc-
tuations were great objections to the old law, but Hon. Gentle-
men must recollect that the fluctuations duririg the same period
were less in England than in the other'cutlntries o! Europe.
It was upon these grounds that he should give his humble but
earnest support to the measure brought forward by liar Ma-
jesty's Government. But he could not sit down without con-
gratulating her Majesty's Government upon the triumphant
mariner in which those measures had been introduced. They
could not have forgotten the manner in which this question
had originated. The House and the country could not have
forgotten that this was not a question sought for by her Ma-
jesty's Government—( Loud laughter from the Opposition)—
but it was a question brought forward by a hostile party,
and for h stile parties the gauntlet was thrown down
in May last by the Government of that day for the
purpose of throwing discord amongst the l.eople, in
the hope that the Government would, in a moment of
passion and excitement, meet with that support which the calm
judgment of the country had withheld from them. But the
good sense of the people prevailed, and the consequence was
that the miserable and inefficient Government became a feeble
and contemptible Opposition.
Mr. C. BULLER then rose to address the House, and ads
vaneing to the table, pointed with his finger to the Ministerial
benches, and said—" Do you talk of consistency ? You taunt
us and the Gentlemen behind me for voting against this Bill on
different grounds? You, who even maintain that inconsistency
which you complain of in us? You, who get up to prove that
the late Corn-law is best and ought to be retained ; who prove
that when agricu'ture .s prosperous, manufactures will also be
so, and then, for no earthly reason, except mere party pur-
poses, and for supporting inconsistency, you come forward and
say, we will vote through thick and thin for this measure ?"
(Loud cheers.) The Hon. Gentleman continued to say that
he should vote against this Bill upon plain and straightforward

Sir R. PEEL, in a very inaudible tone, 'nide some oble:va-
! tions across the table • he was understood to dissent from the
statement made by the H'3n. Gentleman opposite.
Mr. C. BULLER wished the Right lion. Baronet would
explain to the House what he really did say.—( Hear.)
Sir R. PEEL--I wish you would state accurately what I
did say.—(Hear, hear. )
Mr. C. ,BULLEtt—He did not take.down the Right Hon.
Baronet's words, but he understood that his proposition was
that the price of corn should be kept up between 54s and 58s.
a quarter. It was not possible to mistake the Right Hon • Ba-
ronet, for he stated over and over again that his plan would
have the effect or tendency of keeping corn at that price, and
the Ri ;ht Hon. Baronet distinctly said that he bad brought
in that Bill for the purpose of giving effect to his
plan. The Right Hon. Baronet might object to the particular
mode of stating the expressions he used, but he (Mr.C. Buller)
would ask the Right Hon. Barisoet what was the avowed ob-
ject and IT anifest and unavoidab'e tendency of a sliding scale, ex-
cept to keep up corn always at a particular and fixed price.—
( Hear, hear, from Lord Stanley, and cheers from the Opplsi-
tine.) He (Mr. Buller) was glad that the Noble Lord (Stan-
ley), a member of her Majesty's Government, had cheered at
that observation ; he was at liberty to believe from that that
the Noble Lord concurred in it.—(Cheers.) How could it be
just to secure to the farmer advantages which no other class of
men possessed, namely, .high prices for their corn,
under all variations of circumstances—(Hear, hear)—
that advantage applied to sugar to coffee, to
cotton, and every other article which could be raised from the
earth. Certainly the agriculturists were to have all those ad-
vantages without counter-ballancing disadvantages. As long
as laws were passed in favour of one particular class—as long as
the Legislature, who are interested, state to the world that they
would make a law in favour of the agricultural interest, they
held but to the whole world the spectacle of a Legislature
making laws for their own advantage—(Cheers. ) He believed
it would be admitted that he never willingly indulged in per-
sonalities—(Hear, hear)—he would be the last person to attri-
bute to Hon. Gentlemen opposite any sordid private motives
in bringing forward the measure proposed by the Right Hon.
Baronet, but he attributed that measure to those motives of
interest, or to a bias which insensibly operated upon the minds
of men wh.n their own immediate iuterests were concerned.'
Yet he said that as long as the legislation of that House ap-
peared to be eairied on under the influence of that bias, so long
will it give the people thoroughout the country reason to com-
plain of class legislation.—( Hear, hear.) There was one argu-
ment in favour of the present Corn-laws, which had been
adverted to during the debate, to which he would allude before
he sat down. That was the argument against a fixed duty, he
though it more a lvisable to reply to those arguments by statis-
tical returns than by general answers. The only thing of
advantage to the consumer was, that the price of corn should
be moderate. Now the proposed measure conferred Bill the
advantages on the foreigner. Just as fast as the prices of corn
in this country are rained, so, according to the proposed mea-
sure, must they be likewise increased on the continent.
'they raise the price of corn upon the continent, and they have
the advantage of the duty ; but what would ba the result if there
was an Bs. fixed duty, then you would h .ve the corn without
any loss to the consumer. Suppose the Bs. duty was esta-
blished last July, would not that be singly beneficial to the
consumer, compared with the present sliding-scale? No doubt
it would ; and he (11r. Buller) was prepared to plove from
calculations he had made, that it would be a bencht, not only
hear.)theto consumer,
sm u
thoughta
rlb but ttohetelste revenue
calculationswere w
England
worth ! s, o. —c
entering
gr,
into, and therefore he would trouble the House with a Cew of
them ; at the same time he would not go into detail. The
average price of co n, at the en4l of July last, was 688. 3d. a
quarter. It was perfec ly plain that if there was an Bs. fixed
duty in July last, that corn would be admitted here from

grounds, such as any man would ;cite against a }Silt on the se-
cond reading, namely, that he did not think that the prin-
ciple was good. (Hear.) The Honourable Gentleman
who had just sat down had complained almost, of every
Member introducing subjects not calculated to benefit any
interest, but only to excite angry feelings, and his only
exception was the Hon. Member for Knaresborough.—
( Laughter and cheers.) He (Mr. C. Buller) did not intend,
at that late period of the debate, to increase discussion, but at
the same time he wished to call the attention of the House to

Dantzic at 635. 31 a quarter, paying Bs. duty, It could
not be brought from Dantzic unkss there was a certain quan-
tity required. Now, assuming that 2,030,000 quarters of corn
were imported that would reducs the price by 4s. a quarter ;
then, ussuming that carp was imported at 645. 3d. a quarter, the
duty, would
237,3461. on the
mentioned bore
amount of the quantity sold would, he supposed, be 563,837
being
.he had
nhadandBs
quarters; taking that at the difference Of price he had stated,
ot
; he believed
second.bt l e'ell3,l3i
,nBr/hl.:tonnscieut(lh.:leetnifitcyres too
ffs ctcaholeerinr of prices
the total amount of the corn consumed was nut less than
4,000,C00, whereas the consumption of the United Kingdom was
a very small proportion to the quntity consumed
16,000,000 of quarters. Now, in order to calculate the losses sus-
ta:ned by the revenue and the consumer, which was
544,7521. upon the first, and 949,344/. upon the second rate of
prices, in making a calculation of that sort, he thought he
was justified in taking even the highest calculations in which
wheat could have been imported from Dantzic; He was sure
none of the Ho.iourable Gentlemen opposite would say it could
be imported at less than 52'. a quarter; consequently, if
they had a fixed Bs. duty, it could be brought to this
market from Dantzic at 625. a quarter. Then the amount
of loss to this country upon that would be 1,483,878/.
Instead of gaining anything by this sliding down to the Is
duty, the loss to the people was very great. During the time
of its sliding down from 16s. Bd. to 2s. the loss to the people
of England had been, certainly at least half a million, probably
one million, and it was not impossible a mill:on and a half of
money : hot this was not the total loss, there was also a loss of
revenue—(hear, hear)—because all the corn which came in
at the Is. duty would pay Bs. duty, irstead of I s. —( Hear, hear. )
In September last, 2,176,371 quarters of wheat and corn were
entered f.r home consumption at a duty of ls.
; the amount of
revenue received from this was 135,882/. ; but if the duty had
been 83., it would have amounted to 871,3161., which sliowed
a loss to the revenue of upwards of 730,0004 From these
impositions the people had lost certainly not less than
1,200,0101., probably 2,000,00t1 He was sorry to have tres-
passed so long upon the House, hut he thought it worth while
to work out these arguments.—( Hear, hear.) He conceived
the worst part of the sliding scale was the low duty.__( Hear.)
If they looked at the effect of the sliding scale for the last 14
years, who could doubt what would be the effect of the proposed
scale? It would be that corn would never be introduced at
at the time that it was wanted ; it would always be kept back
till the duty got lower.—(Hear, hear.) He was glad that the
Hon. Member for Stafford had withdrawn hit motion, because
it would have given those who voted for it the air of voting for
a paradox ; but he (Mr. C. Buller) would say that it
would be better for the consumer to have stopped the
fall in the sliding scale at 6s. or Bs., than to have brought it
down to Is. He believed the sting of the scale was in the
sliding scale.—( Hear, hear.) What was the history of this low
scale? When the people in England actually wanted food, and

one t..l' two facts. The principal arguments used against the
present Corn-law he thought applied with equal force to the
present Bill. The principal argument against the present
Corn-law wag, that it prevented our trading with those coun-
tries having nothing but corn to give in exchange for our
manufactures. It was a prohibition to foreign trade, and con-
sequently a prohibition upon the exportation of many of our
manufactures, and this was aggravated by tarts tact that many
of those countries refused to take the goods they had been in
the habit of doing. Now he did not see how the present Bill
would remedy that evil. On that ground, therefore, it ap-
peared to him that the present Bill, whatever were the modi-
fications of the old plan, did not overcome a single objection.
Another argument which had been brought forward to the
country was o, e which he thought was first mentioned in that
House by a Gentleman whose absence every friend to free
trade would lament, and when he mentioned the

name ot Mr. Grote, Honourable Gentlemen opposite
w..uld willing y acknowledge the great integrity, the great
industry, and the great knowledge, he brought to bear on these
subjects. lie remarked, in 1839, directing attention to the
Meat alarm which had occurred in the i üblic mind with respect
to the monetary crisis that had happen, d in the previous
au•nmn, and he pointed out to the House the effect the Corn-
laws had had with respect to this crisis. He contended, then,
that with r the present Corn-laws, the demand for corn would
always, in a certain degree, be uncertain and sudden. When
a sudden demand was made on foreign countries for corn, as
was the ea•re when they were obliged to pay for it in gold, that
gold drained the Bank of England, and the consequence was,
that it brought the Bank of England to such a state, that, to
save itself from bankruptcy, they were obliged to have recourse
to the Batik of France. This, of course, pressed on all classes,
who gave
of h
e ort wanted
unnteeodctrreyd, because the farme, sit, anti on no class so
montwehvearsy manon
t who
unhappily
were very large borrowers. 'When the Bank of
England was in this state, they withdrew their advances
to country banks. Now the present Bill being founded'
on the principle of the sliding scale, it will keep up the
necessity of having the recourse to gold to pay for a sud-
den demand for corn, therefeve they could only say it was
bad in principle ; but he wished to direct the attention of the
House more particularly to the mischievous operation of the
Corn-laws, and which had beeu more particularly pressed on
his mind by a document received in that House, and which
showed the effect the Corn-laws had on the employment of
human labour. The document to which he referred was the

THE SUN, LONDON, THURSDAY EVENING, MARCH 10, 1842

Colonial coffee and colonial sugar were protected hylfixed duties.
It was said that in those duties they were to make a change
It was rumoured that the apprehensions which were entertained
of giving an undue stimulant to the slave-trade had begun to
subside. But did they mean to supply a sliding scale to coffee
and to sugar? If they did so, if they passed a law by which
it would be enacted that the duty upon Brazilian sugar and upon
Havannah sugar shout" depend upon the average price of Last
an I West India sugar, he asked the Vice President of the
I'oard of Trade whether a most material injury would not be
done to the growers of sugars anti coffee by that liw ? Ile was
not surprise", for his part, that the agriculturists of this
country did not readily admit the opinions, regarded
by• many as extreme opinions of Adam Smith and
Mr. Huskisson, the latter of whom, at least in the later
period of his life, hell that measures intended for the
protection of agriculture were in reality detrimental to its
interests. But it appeared to him (Mr. Sfiiel) that the opi-
nions of a political economist, who was himself a most decided
advocate for protection, were worthy of their attention—he re-
referred now to Mr. APCulloch.—(Hear, heir. ) Mr. M'Cul-
loch said—" A fluctuating duty superinduces an artificial
variation in the natural and inevitable variation of the seasons,
and is thus of as much injury to the farmer as it is to trade."
—( Hear, hear.) Was that true? Let them see how the
sliding scale had worked in order that they might ascertain how
far anything analogous to it, anything founded upon the pre-
sent system was likely to be beneficial. The sliding scale in
a single year, 1833, had shifted thirty-five times. On July 19, it
was 20s. 3d.; on the 13th of September it was Is.; on the llth
of October it was again 205. Bd.; before the middle of Decem-
ber it had again desr•ended to Is. In 1840 the lowest duty was
2s. 8(1.; it continued at that rate for one week, and five weeks

no corn came in, there were ships laden with corn laying in the
river. That was in the middle of the month of August, and
the average price of corn was comparatively low, yet the corn
was kept back till the average reached 735. It was then ad-
mitted, as within a month of the time.—( Hear.) He would
acknowledge that there were two merits in the Bill of the Right
Hon Baronet—the first was, that we should get a little
more revenue by it ; but the great advantage was, that it pulled
the first brick out of the old system ; it shook the old Corn-
law—the poor old Corn-law—after they had ridden it so much,
and it must came down. At any rate, whatever arguments
Gentlemen opposite might employ when they went to the
hustings, they would not go on the tried merits of the good old
Corn-law.—(Cheers and laughter.) He remembered at the
last election for Liskeard, thinking that he had established the
most undoubted claims on the agriculturists, how annoyed he
was to see his adversaries flag flapping in his face, calling him-
self " the farmer's friend," with mottoes of "speed the plough,"
and SO forth.—( Hear and laughter.) At any rate, this kind of
argumett would not go on.—(Cheers.) At any rate, they
would not tell the electors not to listen to those who proposed
any change in the Corn-laws; they would not do as was done
be the lion. and consistent Member for Licr lnshire, first say,
"s an 1 by the Corn-laws," then vote for the amendment, then
propose another amendment, and wind up by voting against his
own amendment.—(Cheers and laughter.) They would not
be able to say this, but he (Mr. C. Buller) would be bound
that they would have some cry just as unfair, and if they could
not appeal to the old Corn. law, they would to the new.—
( Cheers and hear.) That they would do he had no doubt.
The Right Hon. Baronet the other day made them all feel—he
touched them quite--with the way in which he told us of the
difficulties lie had to encounter in this law—(Hear).--when he
asked Hon. Gentlemen on his (Mr. C. Boiler's) side of the
House to support him, he did not say the words against those
unreasonable friends of his.—( Cheers and laughter.) When •
ever those friends had ventured to came to a division against
the Right lion. Baronet, and, on the last two occasions, when
they had screwed up their courage, they, on the Opposition
Benches, had supported the Right Hon. Baronet.—( Heat. )
At present, he should vote against the Bill of the Right Hon.
Baronet, but whenever the Right Hon. Baronet's I riends
should give him an opportunity of voting for the Right Hon.
Baronet's modified Van or their propositions, he (Mr. C. Buller)
should vote for the Right Hon. Baronet. If he might ask the
Right Hon. Baronet to take aretrospective glance at a time when
he was so hampered with the agricultural gentlemen in this
Howe, he would ask him if he ever thought what would have
been the result if the Right Hon. Baronet had conceded what
must he conceded sooner or later, at the time when his (Mr.
C. Buller's) Noble Friend brought forward the motion last
se.sion.—( Hear.) If the Right Hen. Baronet had come
forward then, and had told the agriculturists that he would
make good term: for them, and if he had told them to be calm,
and not to insist on too much, instead of using all the argu-
ments he could on behalf of the old law, if he had held the
same language and moderation which he wanted Gentle-
men on his (Mr. C. Buller's) side of the House to hold now.
he believed that there would have been little difficulty in
putting the trade in corn on the footing of a sliding scale.
Sir E. KNATCHBULL said, that whatever might be the
opinions of the Hon. Member who had just sat down, or
whatever might be the opinions of the House, ho believed
that no plan had ever been proposed by any Minister which met
with the more unanimous concurrent of the agriculturists,
than the measure now proposed by the Right Hon. Baronet.
—(oh, oh, and laughter.) He repeated it—(oh, oh)—and
he would make his observation general—that that was the opi-
nion entertained by persons in the House and out of the
House.. There was one exception to be made to it, and that
was the body of men engaged in the Anti-Corn law League
( Hear, hear ) With reference to the petitions presented to
the House he was aware that there were a great many more
presented against this law than there were in favour of it.—
( Hear, hear.) But how stood the fact ? Had they employed
any means whatever during the last few months similar to
those which had been taken by the Opposition? No, they
rested their case upon its own merits ; and instead of expend-
ing their means in getting up -petitions, they had expended
them in alleviating the distress in the country—(Oh, oh, and
hear)—and he thought if Gentlemen oppwite had adopted the
same course they would hare done mum' mo:e to relieve the
people than they would ever do by getting them to sign peti-
tions.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman opposite, who
had just sat down, admitted that there were two cr three
points of merit in this Bill ; the first had been removed, and he
was glad of that, because the whole system of Corn-law must
fall with it. The Noble Lord had told them that " no surrender'
was no longer to be the cry, that the flag had been struck, and
that they must accede to a compromise. He (Sir E.
Knatchbull) thought those were not the words that should
have been employed. On the other hand, "no surrender"
was still to be the cry, the flag had not been struck, and they
were not compelled to accede to a compromise. If they sur-
rendered at all they would at least surrender at discretion.
(The Right Hon. Baronet here spoke in so low a tone, and
turned his back so frequently on the reporters, that it was wills
the greatest difficulty we could catch his remarks ; indeed, in
many parts he was quite inaudible.) He was understood to
say, that the Noble Lord the Member for Sumlerland,
had explained that ha would have no duty whatever.
He (Sir Edward Knatchbull) understood the Noble Lord
to say so most distinctly, and he went further than that,
for he said that he thought that when he said so he was express-
ing the opinions of the farmers of Northumberland.—(" No,"
from Lord Howick.) If he had misunderstood the Noble
Lord he was very sorry, but his impression certainly was that
those were the expressions he made use of. In the course of
this debate three propositions had been made—one was for the
abolition of all duty whatsoever, one for a fixed duty, and one
for preserving the law as it was.. He (S:r. E. Knatchbull)
thought that it was necessary that there should be some altera-
tion in the Corn-laws, and he though the plan proposed by
the Right Hon. Baronet was the one best suited to meet the
views of reasonable men of all parties.-{Hear.)—(The Right
Hon. Baronet was then understood to allude to some remarks
which had fallen from Mr. C. Buller, but he spoke so low that
we were unable to catch the purport of his observations.)
The means of purchasing food was the matter of most conse-
quence to the poor man, and not the mere price. It was im-
material what the price of food might be if the labourer had
not the money to purchase it. lie remembered the story of
a man in Londen who went to purchase a few eggs. On
inquiring what the price was, he was told he could have 6 eggs
for a shilling. " Six eggs for a shilling," said he, " Oh, in
Ireland I could get thirteen for a shilling." " Well, then,"
rejoined the other, " why do you not go back to Ireland ?"
" Because I could not," replied the first, "obtain the money
thsre wherewith to purchase them." Such was the case in the
present instance. Au Hon. Member had complained of
the rise in the price of corn in his neighbourhood, but
if that were so, wages must hay,: been raised, and
the sufferings of the poor diminished. He (Sir E. Knatch-
bull had given his assent to the Bill now before the House,
which, he trusted, would soon be passed into a' aw. He
had given his assent to it under the firm conviction that it
was a measure that would operate for the benefit of the coun-
try at large. He did not think that her Majesty's Govern-
ment could be justly charged with seeking exclusively t
uphold the interest of any particular class. 'they had pro-
posed this measure under the impression that in 30 doing
they were legislating for the advantage of all classes of the
community. Much had been said in the couse of those dis-
cussions of the tone and temper of the debates on this
e. sub-
j t He thought that everything like violence should be
avoidede in all discussions in that House. He had endeavoured
in the course of his observations to take that course himself,
and he hoped that nothing hal fallen from him which
might be considered inconsistent with such a course. The
Right Hon. Baronet made some observations in conclusion,
which, as well as many passages in the course of his speech,
were spoken in so low a tone as to be quite inaudible in the
gallery.
Lord HOWICK wished to make an observation in explana-
tion of what had fallen from the Right Hon. Baronet, who had
just sat down, in reference to him (Lord Howick.) The
Right Hon. Gentleman had said that he (Lord Howick) had
expressed himself as opposed to any duty whatever on corn ;
and, furthess, that he (Lord Howick) had stated such to be the
opinions of the persons whom he represented in that House.
What he (Lord Howick) had said was precisely the opposite.
His k Lord Howick's) argument was, that the present Corn-
law was so injurious to the agriculturists, that it would be
much better for them if they were totally resealed ; but that
his own view was that the best course for all interests of the
country would he to impose a moderate fixed duty. To prove
that such hat been his argument, he (Lord Howick) had gone
on further to state the inducements which the landed inte. est
hid to such au arrangement. He had expressed his opi-
nion that in a short time such an arrangement would
be no longer practicable, bat that a total repeal
would be required. Among the farmers of the north of Eng-
land that was a growing opinion—a race of men who far ex-
ceeded in intelligence and shrewdness the farmers of the south
of England.
Sir E. KNATCHBULL had certainly thought the Noble
Lord had used the words alluded to, otherwise he (Sir E.
Kna,ehbull) would not have attributed them to him.

.......
Mr. SHIEL was certainly much surprised that the Right
Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, remarkable as he was
for his perspkuity, had mistaken the Noble Lord, who was also
remarkable for his perspicuity. The Right Hon. Baronet had
misconceived the matter to which he had adverted, and which
appeared to him most deserving. of attention. Among the
many observations made by the Noble Lord, it struck him (Mr.
Shiel) that there was one particularly worthy cf notice, and
that, was his designation of the measure of the Right Hon. Ba-
ronet, as the precursor of an ulterior measure. The Noble
Lord had stated that it was elaviout the Right lion. Baronet
could not stop there, and that either he or some other Minister
would be compelled ultimately to abandon the project which
was now introduced. Upon that observation no remark had
been made by the Right Hon. Gentleman who had just sat
down. Whether he had assented to it or not, had not ap-
peared. He (Mr. Shiel) thought that the objection made by
the Noble Lord was one deserving the most serious considera-
tion. To tamper with she laws that regulate the price of pro-
visions, had been said by Edmund Burke to be at all times dan-
gerous. But when they did tamper with them—when
yielding to the force of public opinion to a certain
extent, they took the first step (and the first step
was the most important)—when they made a change
which was most satisfactory, as the Right Honaurable
Baronet ( Sir E. Knatchbull) had just observed, but to
which Cse Duke of Buckingham at least felt the strongest
objection—when they made such a change as was objected
to by a distinguished Nobleman who had not been a member
of the Cabinet in 1829, and who had ceased to be a member of
the Cabinet in 1842—0 f whose secession from that Cabinet all
he (Mr. S.) would say was, honi suit qui anal y pease
(Hear, hear and laughter.) When he said they ventured to
make such a change, it was a matter of much regret and some
surprise to him, that they should not do at once what he
thought, either they or some one else must do it last—that
they should still adhere to the vicious principle of the present
system, of which perpetual vicissitude constituted the essence,
a principle which affordeA incentives to fraudulent combina-
tions, and substituted the spirit of rash adventure for that of
legitimate commerce.—(llear.l They applied the sliding
scale to corn, but to no other article of human food.