The Sun.
London, England, 1829-05-15 00:00:00

SUB-LETTING ACT.

Lord J. RUSSELL presented a petition from
Ballymore, in favour of the Sub-letting Act.

TRADE WITH INDIA AND CHINA.

Mr. W. WHITMORE rose, pursuant to notice,
to bring forward his motion. He said that the time
had at length arrived when this great subject must
necessarily be discussed; and it contained matter of
so much moment, and concerned such large interests,
that he feared that he should have shrunk appalled
from the consideration of it, but he felt that the
subject itself was one calculated to make a deep im-
pression, that the facts connected with it were
astounding in their nature, and that the consequences
arising from it were the greatest and most serious
that could be considered. It was not to be won •
dered at that he apprehended he should not place
the question in so clear a light as such an important
question ought to be placed in ; but then he hoped
that others better qualified to discuss such a subject
would take part in the discussion, and that the im-
perfection which would be found in his statement,
and he was aware there would be many imperfections,
might be amply removed in the course of the dis-
cussion by the as-istance he should receive from
others possessed of more experience and greater
knowledge. Having made these observations he
should proceed without further preface to the sub-
ject of his motion, premising that be would divide
the observations he had to offer under three heails,
in accordance with the form of his motion, which
was for an inquiry into the state of trade between
Great Britain, the East Indies, and China. It was
absolutely necessary, he conceived, to allude in the
first place to Great Britain, because it must be quite
clear to every observer that during the last ten
years the trade of this country was, to a certain de-
gree, in a precarious state, and that our manufac-
turing, agricultural, and commercial interests were
all subject to frequent and violent fluctuations. It
was equally clear, in his opinion, that by an improve-
ment and extension of our resources we might miti-
gate, in a considerable degree, if not altogether ob•
viate, those distresses with which our manufacturing
population more especially was occasionally as-
sailed. It was his full conviction, and he was
prepared to contend for the proposition, that if
the House met this subject fairly, and looked
it in the face, the means might be found in it to al-
leviate, if not to remove, the causes cf the occa-
sional distress which affected our manufacturing po-
pulation. This was not a fit occasion for going into
an examination of the causes of those distresses; but
he believed they might be traced to the vast amount
of capital in this country seeking for employment,
and to the gigantic power of production which the
country possessed. Both those causes, acting to-
gether, produced distress, and he contended that he
could point out the only mode by which a remedy
could be arrived at, if he could show that a new
field might be opened for the development of capital,
and a new field opened for the vent of the manufac-
tures produced. If a new field of this description
was opened it was impossible to deny that it would
produce great national benefit. Looking to the con-
dition of Ireland too the prospect of a new channel
for employment was most desirable. He admitted
that, by the measure passed in the present session
of Parliament, the legislature had removed the great
impediment to the improvement and prosperity of
Ireland, but that measure was not the sole means
of improving the condition of the population of that
country.—(Hear, hear.)—Giving a larger share of
employment to the people of Ireland was, perhaps,
the most effectual means of improving their condi-
tion. Another consideration which rendered an in-
quiry into this subject most desirable at the present
moment was the state of the commercial relations
of Great Britain with regard to foreign countries.
Into those commercial relations he would not at
present enter fully, but there was one point which
he felt he would not be justified in omitting—he al-
luded to our commercial relations with the United
States of America.—(Hear.)---It could not be dis-
guised that by a recent act of the legislature of that
country our trade with the United S'ates of Ame-
rica would be placed in a most precarious situation.
The restrictions to the importation of British ma-
nufactures into the United States were so op-
pressive, and the duties placed on them so high, that
the persons engaged in the trade between this country
and the United States were placed in a situation of
the greatest difficulty, and it was riot easy to say
i
what might be the end or the ssue of the proceed-
ings which had been adopted. That some incon-
venience was at present felt from the state of our
commercial relations with the United States was
most clear, and_ that considerable injury might be.

‘!*- *•-•

•
done to our trade through that coNtry was equally
obvious. It \vas a most serious consideration that
we depended on the United States of America for
our supply of a large proportion of the raw material
employed in the chief of our manufactures, the cot•
ton manufacture. That this country depended al-
most entirely on America for the raw cotton used
in our manufactures was abundantly clear, for three-
fourths of the entire quantity imported into this
country was drawn from the United States of Ame-
rica. This fact alone, he thought, afforded grounds
for entering upon the consideration whether we had
not the means in our own colonies of providing our-
selves with the necessary supply of raw cotton in-
stead of drawing so large a proportion of that sup-
ply from another country. He was prepared to
show that we possessed in our own colonies ample
means of producing the raw material to any extent,
and that of the very best quality that could possibly
be produced in that article. The necessity which
existed for a large supply of raw cotton, and the
means which we possessed of producing that article
to any extent in our India possessions, was one of
the strongest arguments which could be urged in
favour of the removal of the present prohibitions.
Having stated thus much it was unnecessary for him,
perhaps, to state that the trade between Great Bri-
tain and India was one of considerable value. In-
deed, every one admitted that the trade with India
was now the greatest trade of this country, or of
any other country in the world. Nothing was ever
more completely disproved than the anticipations of
some Honourable Members when this question was
discussed on the renewal of the charter. It was
not expected that there could be any increase of the
trade with England, bat the result fals;fied that
notion. When the subjoct was discussed pre-
♦ious to the renewal of the charter in 1813 one
Hon. Mernb2r s' a' ed that there could be no extenAon
of the trade with India, unless, indeed, in the article
of glass bottles. (A laugh.) It was very gene-
rally contended, too, by other Members, that in a
country where labour was remunerated with no
greater wages than 3d. per day it was impossible
that country could become to any extent a consumer
of our manufactures. These suppositions now ap-
peared ridiculous, because they were disproved by
what had subsequently occurred ; but it was no
wonder that Members of that House should come
to the conclusion that India could not become a
consuming country, judging from the statements
made by the East India Company as to the losses
they bad sustained by their export trade. Instead
of any profit it had been stated, he believed cor-
rectly, that the East India Company from 1803 to
1813, suffered a loss of four millions by the export
trade, and whenever the question was mentioned it
was always stated that there had been a gradual '
falling off in that trade. Even since 1813 there
was a loss, and looking to the state of the trade, as
carried on by the company, Members were appa-
rently justified in coming to the conclusion that
there never could be any considerable extension of
that trade. In fact, whilst the restrictions continued
in full force, arid that the East India Company
monopolised the whole export trade, there was a
great and gradual falling off. The amount of the
falling off was in the following proportions. The
average amount of the exports

From 1790 to 1765 was £2,500,000
1796 1801 2,300,000
1802 1807 2,100,000
1808 1812 1,700,003
During the period from 1814 to 1819 the renewal
of the Charter took place, and some of the restric-
tions were removed, and the exports rose. The
average of these years, from 1814 to 1819, was
2,100,000/. In the year 1819 the amount was
42,800,000/. From 1820 to 1825 the average was
4,800,0001., and in the year 1827 the amount was
5,800,000/. From these details it would be
observed that during the first period, whilst
the restrictions were in full force, there was
a constant falling off in the amount of the exports;
but in the latter period, since the trade had been in
some degree open, there was a gradual increase.
That the predictions hazarded when the question
was under discussion were not justified was to be
ascribed entirely to the private trade, and in no re.
speet to the trade carried on by the East India Com-
pany. He would now refer to one or two of the
articles in which the greatest increase had taken
place. The most important increase, perhaps, was
in the article of manufactured cottons. The total
amount of cottons exported to India in 1814 was
818,000 yards, and in the year 1828 no less than
43,500,000 yards of cotton were exported to India.
The value of the cotton exported in 1814 was
90,000/., whilst the value in 1828 was 1,900,000/,
although, as every one was aware, there had been a
considerable fall in the value of the manufactured ar-
ticle. The various descriptions of cotton.had been
exported in the following proportions :—ln 1814,
the quantity of white cottons exported was 213,000
yards. In 1828, the quantity of white cottons was
2,300,000 yards. In 1814, the quantity of coloured
cottons was 608,000 yards. In 1828, the quantity
of coloured cottons was 12,060,000 yards. As to
cotton twist the increase of exportation was still
more astonishing. In 1814, which was the first
year of the opening of the trade, only Blbs. of cot-
ton twist was exported ; and, in 1828, 4,587,0001b5.
of cotton twist was exported. He mentioned these
facts merely to show that there was sufficient ground
for inquiry, and he would not tire the House by
continuing those details.—( Hear, hear.)—When the
trade had increased to so large an extent it would
well become the House to inquire whether it could
not be extended still more. The great and sudden
growth of the trade set calculation at defiance. He
believed that nothing, in fact, was yet known of
this trade; and his own opinion was, that no as-
signable limits could be put to its extension, pro-
vided only that the means were provided for
the profitable investment of capital in India,
so that the ability to give a return might
be in proportion to the increase of consump-
tion. There was no prejudice existing in the
minds of the people to prevent them from pur-
chasing the manufactures of this country, and there
was no bar or impediment to an immense extension
of the export trade, except the difficulty which the
inhabitants of India might find in giving a return
for the commodities they consumed in the way of
imports suitable to our wants. It was only right to
state that the increase in the imports had not borne
a fair proportion to the increase of the exports. The
official average value of the imports from India, from
1790 to 1795, was 3,800,0004, and the official
value of the imports in 1827 was 8,343,0001. The
growth of the import trade, therefore, was not so
sudden or so great as the growth of the export trade.
In 1814 the official value of the imports was
x,890,0001., and, as he had already stated, in 1827,
it was 8,343,0001. The growth of the export trade
bad been fourfold; but the import trade had not
grown tip in the same proportion, the increase since
the renewal of the charter being only about
1,000,0001. official value. It was also to be con-
sidered that the improvement of the articles pro-
' duced in India did not bear any proportion to the
increased production. The fact was, that no im-
provement had taken place in any of the articles
produced with the exception of indigo. Not many
years ago the indigo imported from India was so
bad that it was scarcely saleable. It was now the
very best of that kind of drug, being of a better
quality than that produced in South America.—
Forty years ago this country was supplied with this
valuable drug from foreign countries ;. but by means
of our Indian possessions we were now enabled to
supply all Europe. Indigo, however, as lie before
observed, was the sole article produced in India, in
the manufacture of which an improvement had taken
place. This was entirely owing to the permission
to expend capital in the cultivation, and he had no
doubt that if permission was granted to expend
capital on other articles of Indian produce, and that
if the like care was taken in the cultivation, the
result would be precisely similar. The climate, the
soil, and the low rate of wages, were circumstances fa-
vourable to every article of trOpical•and colonial pro-
duce. All that was required was the necessary ex-
; penditure of capital, and the Consequent increase of care

\ `• •

PN,

106
and sup&intendence. The next article of produce
to which he should refer was that- of cotton, on
which he had already made some observations. The
quality of the cotton imported from India had not
improved to any considerable degree, though there
was a considerable increase in the quantityimported.
There could be no difficulty, however, in devising
means for improving the quality of this article of
produce if capital was to be applied for that pur-
pose. In the year 1814 the quantity of raw cotton
imported from India was 3,000,000 lbs., and in 1828
the quantity imported had increased to 32,000,000
lbs. To revert again to the quality of this article he
might state that the fact was, that the best India
cotton was inferior to the worst American cotton,
and that in some instances the difference in price
between East India cotton and American cotton
was as great as 100 per cent. The fact was, that
no care was taken in the cultivation of the article,
or in cleansing it from dirt, which greatly reduced
its value. There was no doubt, however, that the
quality of the article would be greatly and imme-
diately improved if British capital and machinery
were employed in the production.—(Hear, hear.)—
He had already stated that a very considerable pro-
portion of the raw material employed in the cotton
manufacture of this country was drawn from Ame-
rica. The whole quantity of raw cotton imported
into this country was 197,000,0001b5., and
151,000,0001b5, was imported from America.
Considering the present state of our commercial re-
lation with the United States, to which he
had already adverted, it wan most desirable
for the future prospects of this country that
there should be no impediment to the produc-
tion of cotton in our own Colonies. The next article
to which he should call the attention of the House
was that of sugar, in the import of which there had
been some increase. In 1814 the quantity of sugar
imported was 490,000 cwts., and in 1828 the im-
portation had increased to 516,000 cwts. It was
an extraordinary fact, however, that of this quantity
sti large a proportion as 300,000 cwts. was produced
in the small settlement of the Mauritius, which was
only to be accounted for by the fact that there was
not the same impediments to the employment of
capital and skill towards the production of sugar in
the Mauritius as in the other parts of India. The
effect of the absence of impediments in the Maud-
tills was proved by the fact, that within the last
eight years two hundred sugar-mills were sent from
this country to the Mauritius, and not one to India.
—(Hear.)--Nothing was more rude than the ma-
chinery now used in the manufacture of sugar in
British India. The produce of sugar was not defi-
cient, but there was a great deficiency in the manu-
facture. In the article of silk the produce of India
was as much inferior as the produce of other articles
in that country. The import of this article had not
greatly increased. In 1814 the quantity imported
was 1,100,00011)s. weight, and in 1828 the quantity
imported was 1,417,0001b5. The fact was, that the
raw silk produced in India was inferior to that pro-
duced in any part of Europe. The price given for
the silk imported from India was 18s. per lb.,
whilst the silk of Italy sold in this country for 28s.
per lb. He had no doubt, however, that if a settle-
merit was allowed to British subjects in India, and.
that British capital and skill were directed to the pro-
duction of the article, silk to the largest extent, and of
the very best quality, might be produced and drawn
from that country. If English subjects were prevented
from settling in India his conviction was, that the im-
port trade could not be extended much further, but
would remain pretty much as it was at present. By
adopting the opposite and the more generous policy,
however, and permitting the subjects of this coun-
try to settle in India, he was convinced that the
trade might be carried to any extent that might be
desirable. There was an extent of country of
128,000,000 square miles, and 134,000,000 of in-
habitants, including the subjects of those Princes
who were tributary to the British Government;
and therefore he was warranted in saying that the
productive powers of such a country might be in-
creased to an almost unlimited extent. Hitherto,
however, it had been the policy of the Government
to prevent British subjects from holding or poisess-
ing land in India, and a similar policy, he ventured
to say, had never been pursued by any conntry but
this. There was no policy more conducive to the
absence of civilization and tknowledge than such a pro-
hibition, which was directly opposed to the system
adopted by all other countries, ancient and modern,
having large and distant colonial possessions. He was
satisfied that ancient Rome would never have ex-
tended her empire or held it so long had she not
encouraged civilization or settlement in her con-
quered provinces. The Russian empire, that vast
colossus, could net have kept the members of that
great empire together if the Government did not
pursue a different course from that which England
pursued with respect to its Indian posiessions.
Looking to the origin of the restrictions to the set-
tlement of Englishmen in the East Indies it was found
to have originated in monopoly. It was now contend-
ed, however, that the continuance of those regulations
was necessary to the happiness of the natives, than
which no argument could be more stupid and unfound-
ed. The only mode of ameliorating the condition of the
native inhabitants was by removing the present re-
strictions and prohibitions. The settlement of Bri-
tish subjects would at once improve the condition of
the present inhabitants, who would acquire know-
ledge, good habits, and cultivation, and civilization
would speedily give place to the state of barbarism
which at present existed. The only object hitherto
appeared to be to preserve the monopoly. Nobody
dreamt of any thing else but to keep up that anoma-
lous system of rule which made the government
partly a trader and partly a sovereign. The very
name given to those persons who went to India
without a license from the Government was suffi-
ciently expressive of the light in which they were
held—they were called interlopers. With a view
of preserving arid extending commerce and benefit-
ing the people of India, the Government of this
country was bound to do away with those most un-
just restrictions. Unless this was done, it would
be impossible to govern the vast empire of India in
a cheap and effectual way. The total ignorance in
which they now were as to the habits and feelings
of the people whom they were called upon to rule
over, would prevent them from legislating advan-
tageously whilst the present system of prohibition
was kept up. [The Hon. Gentleman here read an
extract from the evidence of Sir Henry Strachey
lbefore a Committee'of the House in 1810, in which
he stated that the ignorance of the Legislature as to
the habits and castes of the people of India must
prevent them from knowing upon what principle
they should legislate.]—This was the opinion
of a most distinguished individual who had been a
judge in India, and was well acquainted with the
habits and condititions of the people of that empire.
This extreme ignorance of the' feelings, habits, and
dispositions of the people must necessarily be pro-
ductive of many evil:, and the only course which
they could pursue to obviate it was, in his opinion,
to establish settlements of Europeans in that coun-
try. He was aware that many Hon. Gentlemen
thought that this forming of a settlement, would tend
to weaken the connection between this country and
India; but such would be the mutual course which
must ensue that it was his full conviction that it
would greatly increase the strength of that convic-
tion. Ai present they held India by a single
thread—they would then hold it by a cable. He
knew that either of those ties might, by a sudden
effort, be snapped asunder, or in the course of time
might wear away; but if the object of the British
Legislature was really to make the connection
.permanent there was only one course for them to
adopt, and that was at once to remove all the absurd
restrictions which at present existed. He was told
that this system would be injurious to thi people of
India. In reply to that assertion he would beg to
revert to one fact. The House knew that at the
time of the emancipation of South America, there
was a very large share of British capital embarked
in trade in that country, the greater part of whiCh
unfortunatelylcdset. wiltfh India, as with South
they had at that time
beenwas
allowed
t otrade
America—unrestricted—that capital would, instead

'

of having been thrown away in the lath
country, been productive of much benefit
here
the owners by commerce with the refine"'
Twenty millions of capital would have been prod"
tive of incalculable good in India, and iustead of Pre'
venting the improvement of the people, would, be
c,!ssarily produce it. Would any one say that to,
improvement of Ireland would be prevented hi ?
lowing English capital to flow into that count/.
The effects in India would be the same. This dei
trine was, he contended, a downright absurdityisroi
had its origin in monopoly of trade on the P. Le,
the East India Company. If the object of thei
gislature now was to continue that mOOOPe. 11', it
one would be more ready to admit than he tlit!'be
would be wise—it would be prudent-Lit woule
necessary, to pursue the same course which had beech
adopted when monopoly was the principle on %/Li,'
they acted; but they had decided in 1813,
c.
they granted the last charter, that monopoly dw e.
not the principle on which they were to act, a" • le
thought they were bound to bring this real princi p
into effect. A removal of the restrictions which
were complained of being the only source who
he
the improvement of the people could sPri,t,l/mits:
thought it was the duty of the House to te
per steps for that purpose, He would not dweiy
any longer upon that part of the subject buttlne.l.o,
to say that, if the Committee which ire slxna t.
fg,
the honour of moving for should be adopteu?.o;
would be their duty to make all the necessari_,./0
quiries into it, as it was a subject which ii'u'of
. d
occupy much time; and, as there were parts
it on which full information could not be accelreot
without procuring it from India, he thought it °di,
desirable they should enter upon the inquiry infillehe
ate. It was for this reason that he was anxious.t
Committee should be appointed now; for,though-tbe4
could not carry on their inqniries to any great ext.fdd
this Session, they might make a commencement,
lay the ground-work for entering on the matter isibe
spirit next Session. There were, he thouffht
tot g•
House would admit, strong grounds for urglett,so.
the Committee should be appointed at present. to
came now to the other part of the questionfi'oe
• fete
was between this country and China. The 1
was aware that that trade was at present a COP-V
monopoly in the hands of the East India C°ll.l /I.lljo
No British vessels were allowed to trade there•
this coneviyg
y
the earlier periods of the connection of
with the east such was not the case; they 00
then been excluded as they were tit present.
,Ching
seventeenth century there were four polls it% and.
open to them, as well as the islands of Saitt''''
it was only on the introduction of companieS,r:„ii
cularly those of this country, that jealousies
which first restricted and gradually excluded.9eg
from commerce with those countries. At Preel
#
there was only one port open to them, that 01,Y.7-
ton. From the kingdom of Siam, Cochin Chill'
and the entire empire of Japan, they were,Pflitlo'
excluded, the only port which remained open: h
them being a miserable Dutch captive, from Ivhdow‘
no benefit could be derived. The details f
matters had been developed in an admirable ina'*;,:e,
by a gentleman to whom both India andthis-cocit
were much indebted—he meant Mr. Crawlai
There was, he contended, not the shadow of 011;0
for continuing the present system. He wouldr,tio
the amount of the exports of this country to 4110.
for the several years since the commencement e!'„ell
present century, by which it would appear ho:v tl
trade had deteriorated in consequence of that sYsert's
From the year 1801 to 1810. the amount of eltto,
annually was 1,152,0001.; from the. year 18,%;,-it
1823, it was 780,0001,; and from 1823 to 18 d
was 682,0001.; in the year 1827, 493,0001.„te; 1"."
in the year 1828, 863,0004 It appeared, that
fore, taking the average of the last two yeat*l.Ar to'
there had been a falling off, since the firstPett"',4,
which he had alluded, of ninety per Cent. tl,e'ite-0,
that, as the value of the' goods exported had „'l.•
there must of course be a reduction.; .‘bOtif e•F__Pl,3,;'d
lowing for that reduction, th would find therL",,a,
been a falling off of more than forty per cent. Vv: rci
they reflected that thi whole trade to-which ben,
referred was in their hands, and when this grell'Alg,
ing off, compared with the general trade:to:lll").,-7
was considered, he must necessarily come. to
'conclusion that there was net the facility 014;
ing on that trade which ought to exist. He Icriee-0
that, according to the charter which had' *el..,
granted in 1813, unless some arrangement we,t
made ith the Company, they could not hope "0
any alteration at present. But he ihotight
t
itself a strong reason for paying early attentleal
M'o the
were
subject, and for consideriug whether, wI
ae
present charter should have expired, there
grounds for continuing so odious a, system. Herth w•00
aware that it was objected that the trade
could not be carried on by private merchants, re
consequence of the prejudices of the people.; but II
had the authority of a gentleman of deep 4.111411..
and great information OR - thoie matters, (tir
' With
burn), for stating that there was no country
which trade could be carried on so eaSily.The,ll9.,"l6ll
of the people werein favour of it, for they *Fre njj-50
addicted to trade, their number amouniMitrded
millions, and the climate of their countrl.we',7,-Aere
facility for trade. They would likewise fin u 'I:. sof
interest as well as inclination to take.almes` less
produce of this country, and would certainly be, 0..
mere unwilling to carry on trade with private erobenitii
whose interest it would be to secure their trade !IT,
a great company whom they looked upon as e 0
conquerors of a neighbouring country. But el d,
n, supposingith there
China—supposing were
t h
they in the .way
ooloigfeutl: too
enter the port of Canton in armed vessels,'and ty 0
they should find the people anxious to carry in'
iyte
0
trade with the Company in preference,to pr a
dividuals—still those objections did not:weigll.o,
feature against his arguments; for they,had,to." 0
e C.
peli
rrenccaeoi
ed on throughcountriesfall the
tos hatvthatmediumof a
trade
rally n
rium, and this
. emporium at present existed -rot'
ibei)sutil:ltcankr‘dv,
atoisetfabsdSrioidlnuvegenarhopettogrfoerrbo.olmlivgWith respect to tea, in P too
eaiducot not shi
be
ee provincer
across the country, and the green teas to, be.7t-oid
ported 700 or 800 miles by sea to CartOni
• • • ace'
those teas, being produced in maritime Pre/1-. 30.
might be brought as cheap from those provi'in- oil'
conveyed.a be di
staof3c6:::::;
the island of Sincapore as to the port of 1l the
With regard to Sincapore, he wished tOIvC
attention of the House to the rapid 101.__,11)- and
ment which had taken place in that' isloileity
the great increase of population.. Since been
troduction of trade in the year 1819, it .h#ri- lion
almost a desert. In the year 1824, end,the:POO
amounted to 10,000, and in 1827 to 13,009 f orto
including the military, to 16,000. The:ol% tO
and imports of Sincapore at present ani ottate ens
two millions. He wished to refer to a :staPezrai
which had been made with regard _to .thisib.,_lol be
the same intelligent individual to-whom-he 'Where
fore referred. (The Honourable Gentletileti , 0
read an extract from a pamphlet in Corrobor4A. ho,
-
d
his assertion of the vast itnprovemeni:.Wklsw-. re'
taken place in the island of. Sincapore.).- oft
peatcd, that, even if they were prevented.frOltthol
rying on trade with the ports of China, tS.ei,A9r
only to direct the produce of the country to. #OP"-,Aot
channel. The quantity of the .produce iirof
country which was imported into England.wos'stot
considerable. The imports of. tea alone durin_fig ,00
117
year amounted to 31,000,0001b5., and he ' 10,
doubt that it would be double, or, perhaps
that if private individuals were allowed to 40.164,
was with no little surprise he had heard. an ,•
Member state the other night that the. price 9,4',10
was lower at present, and the quality superior,nh,
if private merchants were permitted to. trade.
an assertion he had never before heard inad:Pii.e.
he was satisfied that if an investigation took P;l1;
and full information be inquired on. be' subjeer?ibe
House would hear no more such assertions. 0t
ibosn. s
Thererted,
werea nd
ni no theit 0
ryeeda
subject of the price of tea he,had only;4oiatti7c4f.
l
l
in the year 1814, there were twenty-sit
thirty-one '"
millions'
of iris., the 'price of whlcl,lB.l
4,2.54,000/. This, according to the prices Care'''.
-)1;1' rher..

iiamburgh, would only amount to 1,116,000/.—
These prices were of course exclusive of duty, and
there was here a difference of 2,808,0001. He knew
it would be said that the tea imported into England
was of a better quality. This he did not think was
the rase, but, even supposing it was a little better,
wisthat a sufficient reason for taking the sum of
2)8°8,0004 out of the pockets of the people of this
Qto support the monopoly of a trade which
was not augmenting. This state of things, he re-
tedn. , could not continue. It had only, as his
Fifend, the Member for Liverpool, had said,
commenced to the present extent with the charter
which was granted in 1813 ; before that the Go-
vernment had a check and controul over the prices.
The trade was given to the East India Company it
Was true, but they were obliged to supply this
ttuntry with a certain quantity of tea at a certain
'Price, or otherwise there was authority given to pri-
vate merchants to import it from the country. Un-
fortutattely this controul had not been carried into
pear effect since the renewal of the charter, and the
Ple were subject to an actual tax of two millions
IttnnuallY merely to prevent the monopoly of the East
4adia Company. If this were all the didvantage of thepresent system he thought it wouldsa be deserv-
ing.the most serious attention of the House; but the
thore important evil was that it cut them off from corn-
ihtree-with the country which of all others was most
leulated to carry on an extensive trade with Eng-
land'and import its produce, not to the amount of
81/ or Seven hundred thousand pounds, but of seve-
ral-Millions annually. He was anxious not to press
itto long upon the time of the House. What lie
? e.d. to do was merely to give an outline of the
teSs• He would leave the details to some of
'414 Priends, who, he hoped, would take a part
in the discussion. The facts which he had stated
he.had collected with much labour, and the House
Might depend on their accuracV. But he implored
subjethe House to consider well the importance of the
ct.—to consider the good which would result
'l9t only, to this country, but also to those countries
Lthe welfare of which they were so much inte-
e,ed--to look to the great benefits which would
"Ise' from carrying on an unrestricted trade with
ro
onntries which, altoether
0,000,0004 of inhabita g , contained nearly
look iits. He implored them to
to suc h the advantage of extending improvement
to
a vast number of persons, and introducing
I.lrnongst them, if not English laws, at least English
3.ll:s.tice and English feeong. He implored them to
r_?flect upon the s
.tisose who ditty which devolved upon
were. to legislate for such numbers. It
duty to look to the interests of both
-tries, and, if they made the investigation which
'le required, he had no doubt but they would come
to the conclusion that the greatest benefits would
Sarise from totally removing all restrictions upon the
nmeree of the two countries. The Honourable
Member concluded by moving that a Select Com-
raittee
adiring into the state of trade between Great Britain
India, and between Great Britain and China.
7:1 The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
not
able and rise to follow the Hon. Member into the
elaborate detail into which h had one on
41111iPPortant subject, but to expresse a hop e, that
tinder all the circumstances of the case, and even
aocording to his own view of it, he would not press
ti
anointment of the committee at present. The
11on.-Gent• had most justly stated, that the ques-
-3° was one of the highest importance, as being a
ra4 n of that which must come before the House
before long, involving, as it did, the interests of
Illiona over whom our power had extended in
ndia. But in proportion as the Hon. Gent. him.
'el` admitted this importance, so must he also ad-
it it, that any,investigation with respect to it should
the Most cOmplete and impartial. He would put
tl't. tothllon. Member whether, in the present pe-
td of We-session, they could advance a single step
vir,.hieh;wouid be satisfactory, When lie advised the
iMriOttse-ii4tO appoint'the committee which the Hon.
gmber foi Bridgeniiith recommended, lie begged
Understood, that he did not give that advice
4:?lll.l:alre'eling that it was not necessary that inquiry
"gld-lie- d •all
er.th ein the objects which the motion
t 4,"°4o.urable Member embraced. On the con-
La.rY) He admitted that not only all the objects which
L'-11411. Member had embraced in his elaborate
Istatertienti but also many others which he had omitted
I.t 6._,1!‘ it) Were deserving of minute and general iniquity.
that hi! opinion, that as a necessary preliminary to
Inquiry, it was requisite for the House to have
hefOie it a certain quantity of documentary evidence.
Was-necessary, for the information of those en-
"en who Might be appointed members of such a
eeatoiittee, that some principles by which their in-
quiries might be governed should be laid before
in order that they might make themselves
ihe.,„._'°uslY •Masters of the subject, and so conduct
os intent
f!!-olled investigation with effect. It was the
ioli
of his Right Hon. Friend, the President of
!itle Board
of Trade, had he not been prevented by
t
disposnion from attending in his place that even-
to have moved and lie believed that he might
Itt:ete;that-it still was his Right Hon. Friend's inten-
era, irk the course of the present session, to move,
.Ule production of that documentary evidence,
which a
to that ?Peered to be indispensable as a preliminary
t Inclaitn which all of us concur in thinking
o_ e necessary.'--(Hear, hear.)—Having that mass
Papers before them, it was the view of the Go-
period' that inquiry should not commence at this
t.e!riptrofth session, when it could not be conducted
11.otti!iseetteet but that it should be presented
sessionsent with
edto the
that w im'early period of the next
tVeirPgnt and with that authority which, while
it jtjuendered it analogous to precedent, would make
generalbegca • •
satis.r action to the country. He
trtr
h therefore li that no on. Member would
notT.A.,ll.at because he opposed this motion, he was
quityZile.us-to give Parliament every facility to hi-
ke" -welt a subject so important demanded. The
thi.4 Would therefore see that the question between
riot Member for Bridgenorth and himself was,
li.h.eifieue.t.her inquiry should take place or no, but
Cher
inquiry should be conducted b y a com-
.!tphObe appointed now, or by a committee to be
at the commencement of next session,
ey144.7.-production of a quantity of documentary._
kWeetith'io the course of the present session. Be-
,_lvhiehtiNtwo courses, lie could not hesitate as.tot
te-Avlii7sOught to follow. There was another porn
,„•en he wished to call the attention of, the
,When we look to the course of proceeding
Uhje.
11 the House in previous instances on this
4etitic- -A We found that there was no occasion for
~'idg With thehaste which the Hon. Member for
kew,„,,gehorth proposed. When the charter was re-
t!heTialll,l79l, the inqUiryinto,..the propriety. of the
the tiLuid not commence till 1193. Again, when.d
hat' e-mer was renewed in 1814, the inquiry di
Oink .
enee till 1813.
telkt,hhight 'Hon. Gent., (we believe Mr. Husxfs-
te,at they We did not see the speaker) here observed,
eaanter-ere was an inquiry as' to the renewal of the
'th,,,se ~,early as. 1808.
WSsith.- N•ttANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
meritYs inclined to defer to the superior c0m-
„41,4. knowledge of his Right. Hon. Friend, but
esent. occasion he believed that he (the
1/rehat,e,:ler of the Exchequer) was right. Heap-
iNaity.ed.that in 1808-there was a great deal of
ettiaseoF le..that House as to the finances of India, in
of the embarrassments of h
°lllriany, which led to the appointmentte East
of a
trlat itt ee tO. examine their accounts. He believed
4etlint Inquiry into the state of the trade of Lydia,
air a the question, whether there should be a re-
, of the charter •or not, ,oclwas commenced and
-
I'Lst Ylkde erd-in the year:before the expiration of the
!hat,: • But whether that inquiry_ littletoo matter
took lace in
'
to.th':ar or in the year before, was of
question. We are now'. in 1829 de-
Ihtlk.llg on the question of the Government of
totirlti.v'd yet till 1834 the Government of that
Ost•ig.r,,Tmat remain on its present footing. The
Parliament would have to decide
tisliTc,me-tile propriety of giving notice to the East
lear "MP,Zakty, ,-,That notice must be given threes
411,11. before Ahg.eirlition of the chayter; and a
eukteidid not eipire 1824, tliat notice need

not be given till 1831. He thought that an inquiry
commenced in the heainnieg of the session 1830
would be adequari• e the I louse all the inform-
ation that would be ti,•ressary to enable it to decide
on preliminary points, whether in 1831 notice should
be given to the East India Company that the term
of their charter and their exclusive trade should
cease and determine within the next three years;
always recollecting, that when that question was
disposed of, there remained three years for the
country and for Parliament to decide upon the
course which the House ought to follow. These
were the principal grounds on which he intended to
move the previous question on the motion of the
Hon. Member for Bridgenorth. He begged that
it might also be distinctly understood, that he
pledged himself at present to no opinion upon this
important question. The Right Hon. Gentleman
concluded by moving the previous question.
Mr. HITSKISSON agreed with his Right Hen,
Friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that this
was a question not only of the highest importance
to the commerce and manufactures of this country,
but also a question involving interests far higher
than those of mere commerce and manufactures. It
was a question of difficulty in many considerations,
also, under the notice which the law had rendered
it necessary to give to the East India Company. It
was a question also on which the decision of Parlia-
ment would involve the happiness, the tranquillity,
the moral and the physical situation of the millions
of subjects who in that country look up to us for
protection and support. He felt thankful to his '
Right Hon. Friend for the assurance which he had
given to the House, that this inquiry should begone
into fully, fairly, and deliberately, at an early period
of the next session. He also felt thankful that there
would emanate from that quarter, from which it was
always fitting that such information should emanate,
a valuable mass of documentary information to guide
their inquiries. At the same time he must say, that
notwithstanding the speech of his Right Hon.
Friend, he could not see that there was any reason
which should prevent its from entering into inquiry
at the present moment. If we were to appoint a
Committee now, these advantages would arise from
it—first of all, the members of the Committee
would be forced to know how serious, extensive, and
important was the duty imposed upon them. They
would have all the advantage of the recess to direct
their studies, so as to enable them, if the Committee
were renewed in the next session, to discharge in a
more efficient manner the duty devolved upon them
by the orders of this House. It had been stated,
that among the other questions which that duty
would call upon them to decide, were questions con-
nected with the happiness of India, and with the se-
curity of our possessions in that quarter of the globe
—questions of settlement, questions of commercial
policy, questions of civil policy, in all the dif-
ferent views in which the administration of a
great empire 'could be considered. Considera-
tions like these imperatively called upon Par-
liament to look into this subject; and therefore,
if they were to begin their inquiry into it at this
early period, even admitting that they were not
bound to come to a decision before the close of four
years, they would not be able to conclude it if they
conducted it properly, in the course of the next ses-
sion. It was an inquiry more complicated, more
various, and more extensive, than any into which the
House had ever yet embarked. He was sure that
there would be no dissatisfaction in the country if
the Committee were now to sit for a month—if it
were then to report that it had commenced its in-
quiries, that it had sent queries on important points
out to the East, and that it had called for a mass of
documentary evidence, which could only be procured
from a distance, and if it were then to recommend
to the House to consent to its being revived in the
next Session of Parliament. Whilst he stated that

he appointment of a Committee this Session would
be productive of such advantages, and not only of
such advantages, but of this further advantage, that
it would be an intimation to all parties who feel an
interest in this question, as it affected both the com-
mercial prosperity of this country and the well-being
of India, that Parliament had determined to direet its
attention to it, and a formal invitation to them, if they
had any information to give, to come forward and
give it, he was not inclined to overvalue the im-
portance of beginning inquiry either in the present
or in the ensuing Session of Parliament. He should
be satisfied, if, upon an inquiry of such importance,
the subject should be brought forward by those who
were responsible for the administration of Eng-
land and of India—he meant by Members of the
Government—under the direction of the Minis-
ters of the Crown, and in conformity with the
course which they recommended as the most efficient.
For his own part he would own, that so far as his
own inquiries and reflections had gone, he could not
see the possibility of reconciling, to the degree
which he could wish, the commercial interests of
England with the administration of the political
affairs of India by a company of merchants who
were engaged in the commerce of the country, over
which they exercised sovereign rule. He thought
that the principles of commerce, as they affected
private individuals, must be interfered with and de-
stroyed, if private individuals were obliged to com-
pete with rivals, enjoying the power of sovereignty,
and possessing 25,000,0001. of revenue from their
commercial and territorial acquisitions. How they
were to relieve themselves from this difficulty he
could not tell; all that he could say at present
was this, that it did appear to him, that the more
they separated the commerce of India from its sove-
reignty, the better would it be for the interests of
all parties engaged in commerce with India—the
better would it be for the advancement of civiliza-
tion in India—the better would it lie for the
great interests of the people of India, and the
better would it be for the interests of the
people of England, the consumers of the pro-
duce which India supplied, and the producers of
the articles in which that produce was to be paid for.
For if the East India Company were carrying on
their commerce to the injury of individuals, as it
had been confidently stated that they were, that in-
jury must ultimately fall upon the people of Eng.
land. Therefore it was that he wished to give to
commerce a greater expansion than it had at pre-
sent, and to rescue it from competing with that
monstrous anomaly of commercial enterprise and
sovereign power united in the same corporation.—
He was particularly desirous that the inquiry should
be commenced as early as possible. He wished it to
be distinctly understood, that though he thought
that there was great evil in the present state of
things, he did not think that it arose either from the
conduct of the East India Company or from that of
the Directors, to whom he owed, and for whom he
felt, all possible respect, and who had exerted the
greatest talent for the benefit of those whose inte-
rests they were selected to protect and to promote,
but that it arose from the anomalous nature of the
system itself. There was one point on which he
must say that he could not agree with his Right
Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. His
Right Hon. Friend said, that it was useless to enter
upon any inquiry in this session, and insinuated that
it would almost be as useless to enter upon inquiry
in the next session.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—
No, no; I neither said nor insinuated any such
thing.—(Hear.)
Mr. HUSKISSON was well aware that his
Right Hon. Friend had not said any such thing in
direct words, but he had said this—that inquiry
should take place next Session, but that there was
no indispensable necessity that it should take place
even then, as the Charter of the East India Com-
pany did not expire till 1834. His Right Hon.
Fri-end had likewise stated, that on two former oc-
casions, when the renewal of the Company's Char-
ter had been under consideration, the inquiry had
taken place only one year before its expiration. He
thought that if on the present occasion the inquiry
should be commenced at an early period, and should
be prosecuted to a conclusion as soon as possible, it
would satisfy the House, the country, and the Di-
rectors of the East India Company too, that it was
for the interest of them all to make an alteration in

the present Charter at a period previous to the legal
termination of the present bargain. He was of
opinion that if a Committee was appointed, the
question of a more extended intercourse between this
country and China might he settled at an earlier
period than 1834. Let not gentlemen, when they
look at that part of the question, deceive themselves.
If you neglect to fol:ow in the track which is now
open to yon,—it you leave foreigners to occupy
for years a market into which you might, but
are not allowed by law to enter,—if you let the
industrious classes of Chinese deal with Ame-
rica for commodities, which they would at pre-
sent as willingly take from you,—if you prohi-
bit too all commercial intercourse between China
and Singapore, that glorious instance of the im-
mense advantages derivable from free trade—it may
perhaps, be too late to alter your policy, when the
charter of the East India Company has expired. In
the years which must elapse between that time and
the present, others will be engaged in that trade,
which might now be yours; and therefore he said
boldly to the House of Commons, " You ought to
seize the advantages which present themselves to
your grasp, even now, whilst you yet can." Look
too at the New World. The troubles of the States
of South America could not continue for ever. They
must fall before long under a settled form of
Government; and then their intercourse with the
East must be considerable. Their situation on the
coast of the Pacific was advantageous for intercourse
with all the Archipelago of the Indies. At present
they were without any commercial marine. The
means of carryinz on the intercourse between South
America and China would be seized by the mer-
chants of other States, if we failed to avail ourselves
of it. The United States of America had already
got part of the carrying trade between them ; and
if we let three or four years pass without doing any
thing, it may be productive of very great mischief
to the position which England has to maintain in
the East. He therefore contended that the question
ought to be taken up at a 3 early a period as
possible, and especially on those points which were
only connected with a pact of the charter. It was mot
a matter of indifference that the House should show
to the merchants and manufacturers of England, who
were now labouring under great depression, that this
was a question to which it was alive, and that it was
looking to a satisfactory arrangement of it, as soen
as it could be made with due attention to vested
rights and interests. He was satisfied that if in-
quiry were granted, we should be able, before the
expiration of the present charter, with the assistance
of the East India Company, to make some satisfac-
tory compromise, so that a new system of trade
might start up in the place of the old one. That
system was clearly defective. In 1793, when the
renewal of the Company's exclusive privileges was
tinder discussion, it was stipulated that 3,000 tons
of the Company's shipping should be set aside for
the merchants of Englund, and they were set aside
accordingly. The condition on which this trade
commenced was a payment en the outward-bound
cargo of 5/. per ton, and on the import cargo 151.
per ton; and yet this condition, severe as it now
appeared, was deemed at the time to be a consi-
derable advance to a better system. On the re-
newal of the charter in 1813, we obtained an inde-
finite power of increasing our trade with India
as far as it could be extended. Since that time
it had been extended very considerably, and there-
fore it was not theoretical to assume, that if the
House proceded in the course of relaxation, our
trade with India would go on increasing the benefits
which the country already derived from its con-
nexion with India, securing the tranquillity and
prosperity of that continent, and promoting the
welfare of all parties who were engaged in its com-
merce. He felt these considerations so strongly, that
he did hope that the points which related to the
political arrangements to be made hereafter respect-
ing India would not stand in the way of the com-
mercial intercourse, which with India was so inte-
resting to the merchants of England, and which
was so likely to prove beneficial to the civilization
of India. He would not, however, advise his Hon.
Friend
,(the Member for Bridgenorth) to persist in
his motion—he would rather advise him to with-
draw it, in consequence of the promise which had
been given by his Right Hon. Friend. At the same
time he must say, that he was not at all sorry that
this discussion had taken place upon the proposition
of his Hon. Friend.

Mr. HUME said, that as the arguments of the
Right Hon. Member for Liverpool proved, beyond
all question, the necessity of going into an immediate
inquiry, he (Mr. Hume) could notconceive how the
Right Hon. Gentleman conld recommend his Hon.
Friend to Nvithdiaw his motion. He thought that
in the present stagnation of all our commercial rela-
tions, the House was bound to ascertain how far our
manufactures could be admitted to share in all the
benefits of the Indian markets. There was strong
reason to fear that the delaying this question for a
single year would be injurious to our interests. The
only reason he had heard from the Right Hon. Gent.
for a postponement was, that formerly an inquiry
was not constituted till within one year of the ex-
piration of the Company's charter. This he denied
—an inquiry was commenced five years previous to
its expiration. Sir J. Anstruther was chairman of
a committee that sat for the purpose. Ile repeated,
we ought to have this inquiry now—the sooner the
better. Gentlemen were aware, that by putting a
question, and stating a case in a particular manner to
a lawyer, you might get almost any answer you
pleased from him ; and you might appoint a com-
mittee of this House in such a way, and put a case
to it so as to elicit any answer you wished. He
hoped the Committee to be appointed upon this
question would not be in the least biassed in favour
of any of the great parties interested in its decision.
The Hon. Gent. proceeded to allude to the Ame-
rican tariff, the object of which was to take the
carrying trade from the British ship-owners and give
it to the American—the United States were right
to endeavour to effect this if they could; but we
were equally justified in adopting hostile measures
to meet them—this we could effect. There were
two important articles of export from the United
States, cotton and tobacco—the most valuable of
American products. The amount of shipping em-
ployed in bringing these two articles to England
was very great, and if we could bring them both
from India, the effect would be to cause an increase
of 200,000 tons in British shipping, and keep them
in perpetual employment. India was competent to
supply all the articles which America could supply,
and in sufficient quantity for our consuinptien. We
know that this very article (cotton) was originally
produced in India, though it had been afterwards
transplanted to the new world, where it was now
cultivated to a much greater extent than in the coun-
try of its parentage. He did not wish to throw out
any reflection on the East India Company. Cotton
was not the produce of the Company's territories
previous to 1803, it was all imported from the Mah-
ratta States. How did the case stand ? Of the
197,000,000 lbs. of cotton imported into this coun-
try, 151,000,000 lbs. came from the United States;
of the remainder, 17,000,000 lbs. came from Brazil.
Egypt, which till lately did not produce a single
bale, now afforded half the quantity brought from
India. It furnished 7,000,000 lbs., an extent of
trade entirely created within seven years. From
the West Indies we imported 9,000,000 lbs., as
there the soil so limited the quantity. India only
produced 12,000,000 lbs. of the whole 197,000,000
lbs. imported. He contended that with the facilities
which might be afforded to India, and with advan-
tage to the East India Company itself, a great quan-
tity of the cotton required by this country
might be produced there. By whatever hands
this produce should be raised, it would add to
the resources of the East India Company.-
18,000 tons of shipping were employed in bringing
cotton from the United States in 1827 ; a great
portion of the supply must be derived from India,
and a proportionate addition made to our carrying
trade by that means. He did not wish this to be
done by means of protecting duties, which were ge-
nerally the cause of loss and injury. In the first in-
stance, however, perhaps they might be resorted to

with advantage, in order to encourage individuals to
make the necessary exertions. He admitted that
this subject (the importation of cotton from India)
in itself afforded a sufficient reason for inquiry.
Then how did we stand with regard to tobacco ?
Of the 33,000,00011). weight of that article which
we imported into :his country, 32,000,00011). came
from the United States, and the trade employed
(so the lion. Member said) upwards, he believed,
of 100,000 tons of shipping—at least it gave em-
ployment to a large amount of shipping. Now Ma-
sulipatam had produced tobacco so superior in qua-
lity, that it was brought to England as a great rarity
and luxury. There was no reamon why tobacco
might not be grown in India, if not to the extent
of the quantity now imported from the United
States, at least to a very considerable amount.
Viewing America in the hostile attitude, with re-
spect to our trade, in which her commercial regula-
tions placed her, we should look round us, and en-
deavour to obtain a supply of her staple commodities
(cotton and tobacco) elsewhere. We were now
obliged to take these articles from her, and she was
aware the necessity that compelled us to do it would
continue, except we looked to our East India posses.
sions for a supply. It was true, as had been said, we had
only to wait till the states of South America were
placed in a settled condition, when the commercial
intercourse that would grow up between them and
us must be very considerable. We might then look
to them for tobacco, but meanwhile we should try
to produce it in India. The East Indies had not
received sufficient attention at our hands. They
had been too long viewed in the light of a rival
colony to other states, and were accordingly kept
down. The result of the inquiry, if it took place
immediately, would be, that we should be enabled
to prove, within the space of a single.week, that the
amount of British exports to India need only to be
limited by the imports which we could draw thence ;
or, in other words, by the means which the country
possessed of paying for our commodities. This was
far from being the case at present. It might ap
pear strange and paradoxical to say to, but he pledged
himself to show, that if the East India Company
had not the monopoly of tea, merchants could be
found ready to land tea in England and sell it at
the cost price for which it was bought in China.
The fact was, in Canton hundreds of thousands of
pounds were due to English merchants which could
not be paid in specie, which the monopoly of the
East India Company did not allow to be paid in
commodities, and for which therefore they had to
take payment in bills on Calcutta, by which they
incurred a loss of 20 or 30 per cent., owing to the
state of the exchanges. Merchants, therefore, would
be glad to take tea and other articles in payment,
and bring them to England arid sell them without
charging any thing for freight. If he could prove
that fact, and he pledged himself to do so, he thought
it sufficient to justify him in calling for an immediate
inquiry. If these facts could be proved, they
afforded one of the strongest cases why the fetters
and restrictions should be removed from British mer-
chants. Suppose an English ship to go out with a
cargo under these circumstances, it was unable to
bring home a freight on account of these absurd re-
gulations ; but it might go to Hamburgh or other
such ports. This ought not to be tolerated, par-
ticularly when it was considered that an American
ship was under no such restrictions, and thus we lost
the profit which the Americans gained. He had
heard of the case of an English ship on the north-
west coast of America, which, being unable to pro-
cure a cargo to England, was offered one to China,
on which a profit of 2,0001. or 3,0001. might have
been realized, but the captain was prevented from
accepting the offer by the regulations of the East
India Company. In that instance the trip, if so
made, would not have taken a farthing out of the
Company's pocket. He did not wish to touch
vested right, but if it could be proved that without
interfering much with the interests of the East India
Company, but merely by a slight modification of its
privileges, a great benefit would be conferred on the
country, he was sure the liberality of that body
would induce them to consent to it. Great ad-
vantages would be derived from the course proposed
to be taken—advantages which would develop
themselves in the space of a single month ; and, if
so, he felt satisfied the Court of Directors would
throw no obstacles in the way. Persons would say
"let us inquire next year." Why not begin the in-
quiry now, and then we might be certain of obtaining
relief, if not in this, at farthest in the next session.
A Right Hon. Gent., now no more (Mr. Canning),
formerly said, that a general inquiry should be insti-
tuted into our financial affairs, which must he probed
to the bottom. What had all this evaporated in ?
The pressure of the day induced Government to
set on foot an inquiry ; but that once at an end, the
Finance Committee was thrown overboard. In the
present case, he wished they would begin the in-
quiry on Monday morning; if they did, he promised'
to produce evidence that would employ them for
the next month--(Laughter)—and what more
could they want ?—(Continued laughter.)—Was it
treating the commercial body in this country right
to postpone an inquiry so important to them for a
year? Who knows whether the present Ministers
will be in their places next year ?--( Laughter.)--
He had been told by one gentleman in the Ministry,
when referring to a promise made by his predecessor
in office, " Oh, we are not bound by that." The
same thing might be said next year, by a new set of
Ministers, with respect to the Right Hon. Gent.'s
pledge of to-night. He did not know why we
should consider the present Ministry as permanent
any more than another. He hoped a division would
be called for, because he was anxious to see how
many persons in the House agreed with him.—
He knew he was accused of advocating strange
opinions—(A laugh)--and perhaps he sometimes
did; but he liked to see how many concurred
in these notions.—(Laughter.)—Gentlemen might
be amused at this, but he had lived long
enough to see measures which had been re-
jected by miserable minorities—miserable as re-
garded numbers, but respectable as regarded prin-
ciple—carried by the very Ministers who previously
had successfully opposed them. He liked this wel

..„..
enough, but, if possible, he liked still better to carry
things against Ministers--(laughter)--because
when he could do that, he was sure the people were
with.him. He did not say this in opposition to the
Government.--(Considerable laughter.)--Not at
all ; he was ready to make great allowances for the
Gentlemen belonging to it, whose difficulties were
considerable. They did not know who were their
friends or foes just at present. He hoped the Right
Hon. Gentleman would yet consider the propriety
of the course he professed that he was determined
to follow in this instance. As for himself, he felt
it imperative on him, as a friend to freedom of trade
and the commercial interest, to support the motion
for the Committee.
Mr. VESEY FITZGERALD did not rise to
prolong the debate unnecessarily, nor did he wish to
travel through the multifarious materials which had
been alluded to in the speech of the Hon. Member
who last addressed the House, in a speech which
seemed to have been dictated by a spirit of indif-
ferent hostility to not Government only, but every
class of persons interested in this question, either
in or out of the House.—(Hear.)—ln a spirit of
modesty peculiar to that Hon. Member, he appeared
to have inculpated successively all parties who ap-
peared to have taken an interest in the subject:—
The most extraordinary part of that Hon. Mem-
ber's speech was, that he had, although be calcu-
lated on being in the minority of six or seven to-
night, prompted his Hon. Friend the Mover to
press the motion this evening to a division, because
he hoped, ere the end of his parliamentary career,
he should find himself in a majority on the question
of Indian affairs. He was glad to have the suffrage
of his Right Hon. Friend, the Member for Liver-
pool, on this occasion, in support of the sentiments
delivered on the question to-night by his Right Hon.
Friend near him. The inference or conclusion
which the Hon. Member for Montrose had drawn
this evening from what had fallen from the Right
Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, was not to
be acquiesced it► or endured_ No such assuranep—

no such pledge as that attempted to be extracted
from his Right Hon. Friend's speech by the Hon.
Member, could be implied with any thing like fair-
ness or propriety from the terms of that speech.
No liberal-miode,l man would have put that inter-
prcaiion on the speech of his Right Hon. Friend.
(" !Tear," from Mr. Home.) Nor can I imagine
that the House will think his cheer will strengthen
his case. An allusion had been made to reports got
up or fashioned on the views of persons connected
with the East India Company, or his Majesty's Go-
vernment, but was almost lost sight of, that there
was a possibility of a report being drawn tip on a
different principle, and to suit the views of the
enemies of the East India Company, and the con-
stant opponents of his Majesty's Government. His
Right Hon. Friend had been totally misrepresented
in assuming that he would proceed in this instance
upon documentary evidence. He had never made
any such assertion, but it was just to suppose, that
prior to coming to a decision on so very important
a subject, his Majesty would direct that Parliament
should be provided with documentary evidence for
its formation.
Mr. ROBINSON felt satisfied with the pledge
just given by the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the
Exchequer. For him it was sufficiently ample.
Mr. C. W. WYNN thought it would be more
advisable that the appointment of this committee
should emanate from, and be sanctioned by, Go-
vernment. It ought not certainly to be taken up as
a party question or a party measure. He had seen
long since reason to believe, in common with an
illustrious statesman, whose loss the public and that
House must every day see fresh reason to deplore,
that it was to be regretted the monopoly bad been
granted to the East India Company for so long a
period, whereby the trade must necessarily be closed
for years to British capital and enterprise.
Mr. A. BARING must confess he saw reason to
differ with those who would postpone the inquiry to
1830 as-to a fitter period. However, as they were
within three or four weeks of a prorogation of Par-
liament, it would be better to postpone the appoint-
ment of the Committee to the beginning of a session.
A great object certainly was to inquire primarily
what part of former reports on East India affairs
should be reprinted and submitted to the newly ap-
pointed committee, and what evidence ought to be
adduced of a novel description. The committee
ought not to be bound to give its opinion, perhaps,
nor was it prudent to consent to receive the docu-
mentary evidence from the channels of administra-
tion at home. Yet it must be observed, from the
cautious silence of the Hon. East India Chairman,
that he felt little disposed to throw himself into
the arms of his Majesty's Ministers.—(Hear, hear.)
The great queStion to be decided was, what is the
actual financial condition of the company. The
monopoly of the China trade was not the only ques-
tion for the consideration of the Legislature. In
whom the sovereignty of that country should be
Nested,—what was its state, its general condition, its
debts, its assets,i ts financial condition--were subjects
which must be examined ere the Legislature could
form any decision on the propriety of removing the
power out of the hands in which it had so long been
reposed. The principle of colonization, or, in other
words, the right of British subjects to a free inter-
, course with those colonies, was the main question
with which the House would have to deal. Although
when the present charter had been discussed he had
voted for it, he felt that danger was to be appre-
hended from the too extensive privileges given to the
East India Company as a body of merchants. The
risk, however, he dreaded had not been incurred.
He trusted next session the subject would be com-
mitted to the closest examination. For this reason he
would suggest there should be three different
committees sitting simultaneously on different
branches of the inquiry. Considering the im-
portance of the question, it might he desirable
Parliament should meet next session more early
than usual. There was an additional reason for this,
because, as this Charter expired in 1834, and that
of the Bank of England in 1833, it would be de-
sirable to adjust the materials for deciding on one
great question ere it proceeded upon another of very
prominent interest also. Nor could the attendance
of Members to perform the duties on both classes
of Committiees be safely reckoned upon. He thought
there was a danger lest there should go abroad an
exaggerated impression of the advantages likely to
result from opening this hitherto monopolized trade.
The terms in which it was generally introduced
were sufficiently flattering. The population con-
sisting of 200,000,000 or 300,000,000—the advan-
tages of a reciprocal commerce with so large a coun-
try so fertile, so populous—were topics calculated
to excite hopes of too sanguine a cast to be realized
from what was known of India as yet. All would be
disposed to make a venture, and thrust their hands
into these golden mines. Had these relaxations of
the monopoly proved so very advantageous to those
foreign countries who now participated in the ad-
vantages of the trade to India ? lie (Mr. Baring)
felt confident that when the question should
be investigated by a Committee, they would do
justice to the liberality of the East India Company,
and to the disinterested and enlightened conduct of
their governments in India.—(Hear.)—The system
might be criticised as to parts, but as a whole, the
administration of India would bear a comparison
with that of any government.—(Hear.)
Sir C. FORBES spoke at some length, but we
regret that the Hon. Baronet's speech was seldom
heard distinctly. The Hon. Baronet expressed his
satisfaction at hearing of the intention of his Ma-
jesty's Ministers to take up this vast question. Ob-
jectionable and faulty as the Company's government
might be, and as all governments were—(A laugh)
—he considered it to be preferable to that of our
other Colonial Governments, and he congratulated
the natives of India in being placed under the go-
vernment of the country instead of the Crown.—
(Hear.)—He recommended that some of our young
senators should take a trip to India, to judge of
the state of things there; he was happy to hear that
it was the intention of an Hon. Baronet to do so

—(Name, name)—his labour would be well bestow-
ed. With regard to the China trade, it was his
opinion that the expectations formed of the ad-
vantages to be derived from opening that branch of
the trade would be disappointed. With respect to
the private trade with India, it was only in its in-
Lucy ; how was it to be increased ? Not by the
East India Company, but by that House.—(Hear.)
Let his Majesty's Government begin by reducing
the duties upon the commodities of India. A small
duty was enforced upon English manufactures, but
a heavy duty upon Indian commodities. Was that
reciprocity? Was that free trade ? We took away
the raw cotton from the Indies, and sent them our
cotton goods, which superseded their manufactures.
He hoped that the inquiry proposed would embrace
not our own interests merely, but those of the people
of India.

Mr. ASTELL, on the part of the East India
Company, courted inquiry, which, he was convinced,
would obviate the ignorance which pervaded the
country in respect to India, and the prejudices which
existed against the company. The exaggerated
statements which had been made upon this subject
led people to believe that a further opening of the
trade would extend our commercial advantages;
that our manufacturers would be able to send out
300,000,0001. worth of goods, if the trade with
India and China was opened. This was a delusion.
But the East India Company had no trade with
India, though they were obliged to import some
goods towards the payment of their heavy charges.
With regard to the giving additional facilities to the
residence of Europeans in India, the natives of that
country would not be induced to keep company with
Europeans; and he would refer the House to the
work of Bishop of Heber as to the question of the
policy of admitting Europeans into India. For all
practical purposes the trade with India was opened
to England; European articles might be bought
there as cheaply as in London. He was glad to find
that the whole subject, not a part of it, was to un-
dergo investigation ; and he was convinced. that the
• P • l• AP • . .

to be so defective as the advocates of free trade
asserted.
Mr. WARBURTON observed,—with reference
to the recommendation of the Hon. Member for
Malmesbury (Sir C. Forbes), that young senators
would qualify themselves for this question by visit-
ing India,—that this plan, under the present sys-
tem, was not so easy as he seemed to think, A dis-
tinguished foreigner, Baron Humboldt, being desir-
ous of prosecuting his researches in natural history
in Nepaul, had applied for permission to go to India
and was refused.—(Cries of " No, no.")—Another
individual, a distinguished merchant, had applied
for permission to send an agent to India to superin-
tend the manufacture of silk, and his request was
refused. He, however, sent him in defiance of the
refusal, and the East India Company had the cow-
ardice not to send him back, for fear of the exposure
of their nefarious proceedings.—(A laugh, and cries
of " No, no.")—One thing was important : if
Europeans were permitted to go to India, they
should be placed under vigilant observation, in order
that the natives might be secure against injury.
There was also another part of the present system
which was highly obectionable,—he meant the
Board of Controul. With respect to the Board of
Controul, he did not doubt but that those persons
who composed it had the interests of our Indian
possessions sincerely at heart. But how was it pas-
sible that they could do any good when they held
office only by the tenure of a day ? This subject
required the attention of the House quite as much
as the opening of the trade.
Lord ASHLEY observed, with respect to the
allusion which had been made to the case of Baron
Humboldt, that he had never heard of the circum-
stance before; and he put it to the Hon. Member
for Bridport to say, whether it was likely that such
conduct would be pursued towards that distin-
guished individual, when it was well known that
persons engaged in such pursuits had constantly re-
ceived encouragement and assistance from the Com-
pany.—(Hear, hear.)—As to the situation which
he and his colleagues filled, they would perhaps be
anxious to make it permanent if they could.—
(A laugh.)—But they had, on the Hon. Member's
own showing, this consolation—that, by remaining
in this office one or two years, they did a great deal
of good, which was much better than to continue in
office for five-and-twenty years, and yet do no good
at Hear.)
Mr. BROUGHAM did not think himself au-
thorised to address the House at that late hour, to
expound an opinion which was formed, lie believed,
out of the House, and in the House, that the result
must be—though to what degree he would not take
upon himself to say, but the result must he—that art
arrangement must be made to open the commerce of
India at the expiration of the Company's Charier,
The present arrangement must be altered, and one:
material step taken towards a relaxation of the
East India Company's monopoly. Flom %da he
had observed of the remarks made by the different
speakers who had spoken in the early part of the
debate, they seemed to differ only in degree, and
admit generally, that the monopoly must be re-
vised, they seemed to differ in the direction of
the relaxation, but all the arguments used con-
firmed the opinion that the great question must
be considered in which so many other questions
were involved. The question of the trade could
not be considered alone.—(Hear, hear.)—The
distinct subjects mentioned by the Hon. Member
for Callington must, at the same time, come under
the consideration of Parliament—the commercial
branch, the political branch, and that which, in his
opinion, was the most important, the connection
between the two questions of the political Govern-

ment of India and the trade with India. If the
commercial question stood alone it would be easily
decided, and to open the trade would be the resolu-
tion. The next question—what was to be done

with the Government of India ?—was of more im-
portance and much more difficult ; but of the three
questions, that which was most difficult, and at the
same time mostpractical, was the connection between
the other two. He should have no fear of the con-
sequences from altering the trade consistently with
any arrangement, except in regard to the political
relations; but that the consequences of the question,
in a political point of view, were most important,
could not be denied. The East India Com-
pany was a great political body, a body
which possessed dominion and rule over many
millions of people, which was one of the
largest Military Powers of the world, and, with
two or three exceptions, the largest Maritime Power;
and was, moreover, entrusted with the government.
of 70 millions of men on the other side of the globe.
That the interests of these millions should enter into
the consideration, and that their welfare should be
consulted on any measures for the relaxation of the
Company's monopoly, could not be denied ; and
that they were not only bound to consider the inte-
rest of this portion of our subjects, but also the
rights and interest of the people here. lii abolish-
ing the monopoly, and in what way the alteration
was to be effected so as to most promote the inte-
rests of both parties, was one of the most important
and most difficult parts of the inquiry. He would
not affect to say that the information the❑ before
the House, uncontradicted as it was—for though
the Hon. Member for Bridgenorth had been charged
with exaggeration, in a speech equally distinguished
for accuracy of detail, and soundness of principle, and
clearness of enunciation—yet he had heard nothing
to prove that charge; he would not, therefore,
affect to say that he valued very highly any
further documentary evidence which could be
brought forward, or that he should Hot be pre-
pared to pronounce at once for a great relaxation, if
not for a total and entire abolition of the Company's
monopoly, if the mercantile and political questions
stood apart and separate. They might safely throw
open the trade, if the other question for the govern-
ment of the people were disposed of. He should
have less difficulty if he saw—which, absurd as it
might seem, they might yet live to see—the East
India Company give up all its trade, while it still
retained the Government of the country. Which-
ever way they looked at the subject, they would
find inquiry necessary. He felt in all their force the
reasons which made it desirable to withdraw the
motion, but with the understanding, that the Go-
vernment was to take tip the subject at the earliest
possible period next Session, and that it would then
come forward with all the weight and authority of
a recommendation of the Government; he thought
it would be advisable in his Hon. Ft lend not to
press his motion to a division.—(Question.)
Mr. WHITMORE replied shortly. He ad-
verted to the increasing prosperity of the American
trade with China to prove how much British mer-
chants would be bestefited by a full and general par-
ticipation in that branch of commerce. He argued
on the absolute necessity of the House being placed
in possession of the very best evidence on this sub-
ject, and concluded by expressing his hope that Mi-
nisters, who appeared to be liberally disposed, would
grant an early and an effectual inquiry.
The motion was then negatived without a division.

STRAND IMPROVEMENTS.
Lord LOWTHER rose to move for leave to
bring in a Bill to amend the Act of the 7th of
George IV., and to enable the Commissioners of his
Majesty's woods, forests, and land revenues, to bor-
row the sum of 300,000/. ; but the noise made by
Members hurrying from the House after the pre-
vious discussion rendered it almost impossible to
hear a single word the Noble Lord uttered. We
understood him to say that the estimates sent in
as to the probable expences of carrying into effect
the contemplated improvements in Westminster fell
considerably short of the actual expence, while the
Crown leases, on the other hand, had not been so
productive as was expected. Under these circum-
stances it was found necessary to make this applica-
tion to Parliament; and unless the money were pro-
vided, the work, which was now in progress, must
stand still. His Lordship concluded by moving for
leave to bring in a Bill to amend the Act of the 7th
of George IV., for carrying into effect certain im-
provements at Charing-cross, &c.