The Sun.
London, England, 1845-02-18 00:00:00

to them and to the colonial gentleman ? e.......
To all he but 47,974,000/.—(Hear, hear.) Therefore he thought
Saul, " Support me, and I'll support you." To the cobs- that an increase of revenue would be produced by a
Tat!. interests in that House, lie said, "Support me on judicious reduction of the taxation pressing upon in-
ll' corn-levy question, and I'll support you on the dustry. The stimulus given to industry, when the re-
sugar duties."—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") To the duction was made with justice, and upon those which
..agriculturists his arguments were equally potent.— should be best selected, would be such that in the next
(Hear, hear.) Now, with regard to the reductions that three years a result similar to that produced in the last
tne Hon. Baronet had made tin the articles of limber three years might be expected. It was on that antici-
ant sugar, he (Mr. Roebuck) would deny that any nation the Ministers grounded the measure, which, he
benefit had resulted to the country by the reduction on trusted, the House would now sanction. He confidently
the latter, because it the duty had been equalised on expected such an improvement in commerce
tits,ar produced in all parts of the world, the same and mauufactures, and consequently such an
hbenefits would have follewed, while the duty would not improvement in the revenue as would at
ie have beets lessened. Now, he would like to see how the end of three years enable the House to say whether Hon. Baronet would explain upon what principle he any further change should take place or not. He had
had let in the Venezuela slave-grown sugar, or the been surprised to
hear the Noble Lord (Lord John
Cerlorhhous amount of slave-grown cotton.—(Hear, hear.) Russell) say that there was no certainty that the reduc-
;9u 1(1 it be possible that 'ihese productions, being the tion of taxation proposed would produce an increase of
result of slave labour, did not touch his feelings revenue, because there were some articles upon which
favour of the slaves in those places as reduction had taken place, and there had been no in-
welll'ts as in other parts of the world ?—(Hear.) crease.—(Hear.) With all deference to the Noble Lord,
fn 1% Right Hon. Baronet had lost 13,0001. by his changes he thought he was not correct in his facts, and that if he
Which
the fiscal regulations as regarded sugar, part of were correct in them, he was incorrect in his deductions
went into the pockets of the West India planters from them. It was true, (as we understood), that in
w2allhdl a large portion was altogether thrown away. And the case of wool—(Hear, hear, from the leading Opposi•
.A.,-‘,. thrown away ? Because it was non-productive. tion bench)—the increase had been quite commensurate
d:',i so with timber. Canadian timber was not only with the reduction. The cost of the article
wearer but greatly worse in quality, and upon it there had been diminished. There had been a larger
suisiea. loss of 900,0001. He (Mr. Roebuck) knew this number of consumers, and those persons were enabled,
gentlemen t
well, and if te Right Hon. Baronet and other by the reduction, to expend more in the consumption of
nlir,hethen would gore through the calculations they other articles.—(Hear, hear.) But it was a very nar-
rer• t see it now, as no doubt they would at some later row view of the reduction and repeal of taxes, when the
ti_ ',cl feel it.—(Hear, hear.) Canada produced its own Noble Lord would have them look only to the effect of
:tier well fitted for the masts of ships, but timber an increase in the particular tax reduced. If that doe-
gjeale from the Baltic at a cheaper rate and of a finer trine were admitted, they should repeal no tax ; for
he tslotY for all the purposes of building. But what would every tax repealed was, to that extent, a loss to the
an,„u • result ? 900,000/. would be lost to the Exchequer revenue. But, speaking from practical experience,
weud•e,t the people would have no better timber, They every reduction or repeal of taxation pres.,ing upon in-
tax,e anout to impose upon the country an income- dustry was attended with an improvement of the re-
theand what was their justification ? W'h • this. That venue.—(Hear.) He confidently affirmed that past ex-
)
oftYhewere about to favour the country with en alteration periencejustified theiranticipations in the present instance.
alter ,fiscal duties. He (Mr. Roebuck) said that those —(Hear.) Looking back to an antecedent period—
and t•")fts were fallacious in prineiple, bad in calculation, (Lord J Russell,' Lord Alihorpn—yes; at that period
e.hate.tki to no desirable result. lie hail already reviewers a reduction of taxes which had subsisted for a long term
these ir Bight Hon. Baronet called the necessity for of years was effected. In the year immediately preced-
Ces-e` en,aliges, and they had heard the Right lion. the ing that in which his Friend (the Chancellor of
sa "Fellor of the Exchequer say that they were Deese,- the Exchequer) and himself went out of office, and the
sea. In order to avert revise-ell bankruptcy. Bet who Noble Lord opposite and his frionds succeeded them in
sat, the
i, .
n the e, (es en sugar and timber, and preserve to office, a very large r• peal of taxes was made, sod in the two
Ilieht'lln„h
trY tads inquisitte hit tax ? Ile left ripen the years tellowtme taxes to the amount of 5,700,000/. were
(lire ill, "eurable lat hetet the onus of pro, ing he a-lute-I or rep, led. That tt diction pp trentty brought
forelusebuelt's) state, exits to be incorrect. tee the rove. LIP (41 f.e ex;'ecte I down io 45 indlions from 50
4ptildttdverting to another part of the gllC=,Llo,, 1,, Ini,li ns J.11'7 solo- odd hundred thoustines ; but in the
very not help remarking that there was a year that immediately followed there was an increase
Iti,hgreat deal of art in the scheme propounded by the up n the remaining taxes of 3,500,0001., bringing
Right
t Ron. Baronet. There was a something to mollify the revenue up to upwards of 48,000,0001. ; and in
seoeteehtsterN and Glasgow, and there was an attempt to the year 1835 the rtvenue was nearly the same
pente the oble Lord (Lord Howick) by the alteration as before the reduction took place.—(Hear, hear.) That
the noble(—(Lamehtery) So far from agreeing with was a proof or what might be expected from the judi-
teigetr Lord, that no exports should be taxed, that cious repeal of taxes, and, taken with the result ofthe re-
buck be ee the newest principle ; however, he (Mr. Roe- lactions in 1842, justified the present expectations of the
ttnse) theught that the exports of the country veer., Goverrenent.—(Hear.) He could assure the Right
't thav'hich ought to be 'he fir •t to be taxed. inasmuch. Hon. Gentleman the Member for Devonpert, that if Pro-
cse4i4yr customers, not them-elves, censutned them. lie videnee blessed the country with seasons of average pro-
failed ;red that the Right lion. Baronst had completely ductiveness, they would be in a condition to leave it in
re 4, "u make out his case. He had not established one the hands of the House in threeyears to say whether they
tatilitt for his changes. H. (Mr. Roebuck) would sere' w,,uld abandon or continue the income-tax. The question
that t of the auction duty, but he certainly thought now before the House was the same as in 1842; namely,
the c“"Posts pressing more severely upon the industry ef whether they would continue the income-tax to meet an
kr °anti.) night have been removed. R
. The es lit Hon. increased expenditure, and to enable them to afford great
the (41et had, he believed, remitted that tax because of titan:mai relief—(Hear.) It was necessary to look to the
tleseerLurenous expense of collecting it. One word nature of most of our present taxes, and to the eirchna-
llas eau°llt the remissi et of taxation. - The Right Hon, stances and time in which they were imposed. They
'4lUtd'tt had remitted-( the duty'' on . glass. This would were iinpased in periods of war, when it was not neces-
ths„P')' benefit the rich, by lowering the cast of their sat.) to regard the effect which they might have in re
st,tfitieedies;
,1 , ; but the winde:es of the poor would remain striceng our commerce with foreign nations ; and their
It
by it. The present step was in the right sole object was to raise from our own subjects the money
tt easl:l.tt, and he thanked the Right Hon. Baronet for it. necessary for the national defence. Those taxes had
'toe 4,", earnest of a future time, when the monstrous been continued in a long period of peace to maintain the
theieriToes of the country would be levelled to tine national expenditure ; and it was not surprising that
ras 4o Let him not he mistaken in the resolution he they should now be found but little adapted to the
t •oluti
to propose. He proposed to leave out of the altered circumstances of the country in respect to
oht fur"ut
the words " professions, traces, and effices," foreign trade and domestic industry. That being the
;flute the purpose of exemeting them altogether, but case, althouge he admitted that the income-tax was
lie'se'ttlig them to a regular system of taxation, such direct and unpalatable, he thought the House should
Si 4'l
t, r GEdescribed. consider whether it was not wise to continue it
l'' la •E. GREY said that in her Majesty's speech, at for a time longer, for the purpose of relieving the
earlerining of this session, it was recomnarnded to country from those taxes which interfered with trade
t7)ee-tient to consider whether it might not be expedient and national industryear, hear.) The Hon. Gen-
, test, 4Thue for a limited period the tax on Property, and tlemau who moved the amendment wished to relieve a
(1)01.e l,der also whether those taxes which pressed class from the burden of the income-tax ; but he did not
4 the 'asily upon the energies and the industry state the matter as if he so much wished an exemption
doe. tea°untry should not be removed. The Right for that class, as to obtain an exemption under the ap-
pki
ati itt:3Pet, in strict accordance withlthe recommen- pearance of more equal taxation.—(Hear.) What was
eysod ei, that speech, had laid before the House his pro- the Honourable Member's objection ? Ile (Mr.
ttl the irrations. In the speech which he had addressed Roebuck) said that the real and funded pro-
tt„,the co: on Friday last, after reviewing the state perty. ought to bear the burden, and that property
is U tee,l r
D', and his views with regard to the reduc- which was not realised, ought to be exempt. That was
ejastell''‘ttion, he stated his confident expectation that, the argument which
.was offered when the tax was first
seli',e.taegea Proposition for the continuance of the in- imposed. But Mr. Pitt's answer was, that it was wrong
tras erl 'l3l' a period of three years, he should be after- to arrange taxation so as to cause capital to be diverted
lj4.aretabeled to dispense with the tax altogether. The from one line of investment into another, to ensure more
et, lee,' Learned naentleman who had just sat clown profit. If you said that land and funded property shouid
e,jarltsteitrreed the House, with a gesture of disdain and be subject to the tax, which other capital was not sub-
liel!,lt shi,,wtehich he granted would will be merited if the ject to, you gave an encouragement to the selling of land
1t5,•,4t1 "CI bear him out, that the tax would not be and funds, and the investment of it in trade and corn
opted that Permanent. He (Sir George Grey) merce.—(Hear, hear.) Now he (the Chancellor of the
the of hit the Right Honourable Baronet, or Exchequer) would ask where was the injustice
the grounds,' colleagues, would give the House of continuing this tax, which was for the ob-
tleitas see ,For the confident expectation advanced that ject of a direct and actual relief of the
lleh tleesutd not be renewed, and for their desire that public generally, from the pressure of taxes to
0p5".134: would confirm, in consequence, the Right which they were now subject?—and those were taxes
itc,tsd vliet's resolution. lie (Sir George Grey) had which did not press more upon the man of fixed pro-
er'l to
tt"\e, tax three years ago, but he was prepared perty than upon the professional man. The Hon. Gen-
helti), ps,vh,'"w the imposition of the tax for a further tleinan himself would be as much benefited by the relief
tle,!,oteel"„ed that he had a certainty of its being again as the capitalist or landlord. He would, equally with
ttit'Ll,l he 'louse at the expiry of that time whether it the public in general, be benefited by the reduction of
Prop idler further continued or not. Ile could see no- the sugar duties and the repeal of those upon glass. But
rthri6o itsu reasonable than that Government .should was the arrangement possible to secure that every man
thtetosq ,i, continuance at this time, with a view to the should make a full return of his income from every
ale, lea:' other taxes whicti pressed more heavily upon source? The Noble Lord opposite (Lord J. Russell)
4,;edil I,fstterY ofiy the country;-- but looking to the objected that the tax was inquisitorial—would it be less
Ist-,ltenseee Might Hon. Baronet, he, fear hne, could so if the proposition of the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Roe-
tliss'". re.; the grounds for his confident anticipation, buck) were ashamed, or would the public reel it less
three 14er'' ,4:01-11•1 at an after period be removed.— odious than the I lon. Gentleman sail it was, if it
cl'ee'tglil the' ''''"'n Mr. Roe-buck.) He did not mean to ,ro were exteed• d to every man ?—(llear, h ar.) It was
tap;', but -1, statement of the Right : am. Hart In ow . xt.l.d, (I to a very litneed per• etn of the publi •
'lted,,"tetter:',„" could not, Ike him;entertalu the seta,,,y ,lit ti. Hoe tn. ;errian ~ould ha,e every man make
'la i 4 6 i 'oat, at the end of three years, th,' revenue the return upon oath. Tire Right Hon. Member for De-
li t;l'eotee-n• that state to enable him to dispense with vonport told the House, that he would not consent to
lls e lido4X, amid he believed that, if the Preposition that. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) cortenrred
k,t41,444:, it4wht !lon. Bar. met w•ere acceded to by the in the Ris ht Hon. Gentleman's decided opposition to
telSae-,t (If eil""1 be a gratuitous sacrifice of a hire, that expedient.—(Hear, hear.) For years past the Le-
i'letlieetit rerrrePerty wit-Matt giving the country any gislature had been endeavouring to abolish oaths of
l'ose nee , the sacrifice. He might assume that the that nature. As for instance in the Customs. and the
tees them Baronet was sincere in his desire to exclude Excise, which had been found to be wholly ineffectual.
tteti*llieearkets of this countr ' tire su"ar of those ceun- Let the Hon. Gentleman suppose what the effect of his
tirtie of sue';llcourage slave lt,btYtur. But he asked-, in the Proposition would be. When the tax was first imposed,
j,fkl k° pee an inerea-e in the consumption of Shut it applied (as he, Mr. Roebuck, prepesed) to every per-
tNillt,-- Nee"? the loss in duty, from whence the supply son, aria the product was, 15,000,0001 It now was s
''t e 44, , Were their colonies to supply 34,000 touch limited, that it produced only 5,000,000/.
;low.' cover waieh the Right Hon Baronet took cr. dire The Hon. Gentleman had said, what was quite intip-
41':;;Illtheille''' deficit of 13,000/..? He (Sir G. Grey) plicable to Vie case, that the test of insurance which was
,tss tth 'ter the coloniescould I •Si .b II • applied to clerks in public offices would serve as a test
a ere, at th ,upp )• Si, in IL . t
~4(14c:‘,,,,1iii,e revenue would be sacrificed, and that tor the incomes of other persons. He could assure this
•e e
salt 4 ps, ' not be iowered lid. to the consumer, as lion. Gentleman that no such test was applicable.
141)4 swuellia, weised by the Right 'Hon. Baronet, and the [Mr. Roebuck said he had not said any such thing.]
01,k th Aperted to benefit the pockets of the gentlemen To come now to what had been said by the Noble Lord
tl/4),,„'' hi. 4 the mono,ol • —(llear ) Ile believed on the subject of the auction duty. It was to him matter
„stew,stedi e tEI i ) • •
ng '5. Baronet had no confident expectation of regret that the Hon. Gentleman the last Chancellor
ri,ttiti•Sl4lyL'acaterlit'les,thaendm. arkets the sugar from the slave- ~r the Exchequer was not in his place, for if that Right
. therefore, let them not hypo. Hon. Gentleman were at the Noble Lord's elbow, he
I,*lltothere6eall'te that they could act on that principle, would tell him that the objections to that duty were
Iv•l'''' Mill bite once sweep away the distinctions that strong and pressing, and that lie would have recom-
tlte there. erto
la Preservud, and equalise the duties mended its repeal when he held office, if he could have
Eden me, 15--,_•s(Ceur, hear.) Any otheri mode of dealing suggested a means of meeting the deficiency. He thought
sf atsd're ire c'n would but have the effect of making- thst the Noble Lord, with all his disposition to find fault
tattle fi'''' d I,j,urs',:lus monopolies than those that now with measures proposed by the present Government,
he Itlce. ieriatbotilit, therefore, support the resolution oulde find it hard to convince that Right Honourable
h 'l4,,ption cu er for Manchester, that no settlement Gentleman, the
.Member for Portsmouth, that they were
k4lsi ,14ati„, uld be 'considered but such as involved wrong in submitting the auction-duty for repeal. He
etth, Lc. the of all the duties on that article. With did not think either that the Noble Lord would be elis-
e:t teerph. tiatrzendinent of the Hon. and Learned Posed to coalesce with the Hon. Member for Lincoln, in
the tithe
tal!ght 1/(1); he (Sir G. Grey) trusted, for one, calling for a repeal of the duty upon insurance, in pre-
ts, elle een•f that „1. Baronet might supply some ground Terence to those taxes 110 W proposed for repeal. He
swee e4ur three ee should be able to remove the tax at would not now enter into topics which would bring on
more spitilNireehrsears• He (Sir G. Grey) did not wish a lengthened discussion of details. Shortly before the
411114, n was or modifications tried upon it, for his time when he would have to go into the whole subject
• It'lis e,1,• they that the more obnoxious the tax the of the present measure, the sugar question would be
these4tntrereaNcLerre to get rid of it. • brought under the discussion of the House by a motion
4f.,alter mater' .-'')11 of the EXCHEQUER said of which an Hon. Member had given notice. On this
yi,,,..eit, jations fr tally in opinion as to the results of subject the Noble Lord opposite was altogether opposed
Iritsed "ere wet. eea the different gentlemen who had to him (the Chancellor of the Exchequer.) The Noble
ise_ 4sti'l greet e at least some points in which there
thest4e-tite Lora
did, not object to a continuance of the slavery. It was, its his opinion (as we understood),
eitk he Le Il° Gentleman did not object to it ; quite another question in respect to cotton, to encourage
/444 t the bt4 jotrodlied Member did not object to it, only the cultivation of which was not so great an encou-
e4 th,s•4iglit ire Modifications Tito it. He agreed ragement to the slave trade as the cultivation of sugar.
tCore tne_s, -n• Baronet who had last spoken, But, as he said, he should reserve those points connected
ll Qv %ere
e",ifications would only render the with sugar until the time should arrive when, the subject
kitht t.,4 POint`','24oXious and altogether inoperative, being fully before them, they would be enabled to discuss
Ss " c "e th ht they were generally agreed,
ClO'e the °urse of the it in all its details. It was sufficient to know that,
19,,_ ,000, ?xne.,_,.
year it would be necessary to generally speaking, the House was not disposed to object
it55,;714e0e41,4 tile rourd"(l.trur:)oirL the coontry by the amount of to the resolution placed in the Hon. Chairman's hands.
ep. ttnd of be , "eep up those establishments
at4tekht ittingor tcs"gleeted without. the greatest detri- It was enough for the House to decide whether eon-
th% ese on. the country.— (Hear heel'. ) But tinuing the property-tax for a limited period was a
desirable measure. The Noble Lord had told them that
the l'N.i elltki his Genn,tletnan wh '' ' k„11,,,,(ki for "."Aight Hon (- spoke last asked upon . ,
the tax was liable to induce fraud to enable parties to
)t"tt uttie.t which he • Friend anticipated that, at avoid making proper returns, but the Noble Lord forgot
'llle I\Z "he e had called for the continuance of to mention those taxes which were not liable to fraud.
tip tei °IV hwould be able to repeal it ?—(Hear, Would the Noble Lord tell him whether there had been
t,,,41t5ii'?4 elehita tehat(the Chancellor of the Exchequer) as much fraud induced by the income-tax as the Excise ?
f't,w ishtlaerie the the Ministers grounded that anti-
of the past Whether it had been so often evaded as the duties ofExcise?
11, itk erns ,exPerienee
t khe as le ht the , ; and that if the Whether there was a greater temptation in the one. ease
Se oe is .st „es °teary were ke to make false statements, with a view to being relieved
th Ny i 'lt 1,1,4 itr, they
Coup pt upon the same
(14 ki) t'4l-Aisd e.t'lx, at u, with perfect safety, from a small portion of taxati.on ? Whether there we-
t tett elide ni 144,).
• 4 Ur,. Pr'sent•—(l-lear,h,ar.) That not an equal, or more temptation to evade tae duty whit!' lis
a shed eeesi -, white, It 'V" (I"' imp',Sed Lt, meet produend a large and inure benefieial results to the party
timt e: Peri, "'ley,
./ exceeded the revenue, aced pro- committing the fraude.—(Hear.) Set the fraud on the
Ilkt e'ait 'l"oft merlint Was now e„
proposed to continue it
tp:4l,tit4 .): whicig an tecreesed ex 'effilietire in one side and the fraud on the other and he could not attri-
bute to this ,ne particular tax tl•iit degree of liability to
hretietl 11,0 to. retiev all seemed to agree,t. • i • ' fraud which tni-iii attach to enother Fraud epet ated
cla, thet 4 dustryln e the ceuh, 'on a, t' , •
tax
1,1
tr
41.4
(,xistLe
purpose
tag was
firstoltt msbuuubrs.td eibtnetserdewmt.- i laiicni i.
'N-1. 4t,it when this anti cote more or less upon every that was imposed upon the
IQh thlN.as fur
the
ineet,e. country.—(Hear.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman.
the had told them that in repealing the duty on glass they
It :e by twie.les whit and to reottceaoseverfivg a large deficiency bad abolished the duty on the chandeliers of the rich,
4t)ti 44 th laieh , 'la were a,. -from burden a mon- hut the windows of the poor were left without any re-
tt tie gee , emmer t that time subject to bur- lief whatsoever.—(Hear, hear.) The Honourable
that
i 3 4Ppo, , ce and isle
at afteetdd he e'd that e
industry of
ustry were restricted. Gentleman must have spoken upon the subject
tit4h, as 411 irit given to the): removi ~.
III; that taxation, a without having first made himself acquainted
411 stets hlB lii"lval' which
44dli ed wo g.it ii,,,, might last the people—so with its details, or he would have known the duty on
five years, but
a 4 eery eed uld r e Eriend Sir chandelier glass Was infinitely greater than the duty on
tta e it, coma -babty he n ( R. Peel) at the crown glass.—(Hear, hear.) The Hoh. and Lcarm.d
he ')ltle. eeree of the •
0 more than three—the Gentleman, therefore, could not have given the subject.
V theirtlanoex might be
Country would recover, due consideration.—(Hear, hear.) There not appearing
ku e 3, tax w.. of the
r, dispensed with. And what' to be as y disposition to maintain any other subject than
eattts J,ts ? „ih, itnp„se, nue at the two periods, the one mentioned in the resolution, he thought he
It" its ' the tie woep;ut and at the
ee e Of the reven
.0 refer forexpiration of the should best cousult the convenience. of the House, and
'tlstNiba e Year ue
in the threean answer to the ac. promote the advantage of fair discussion, by reserving any
'ea ;IPA; 1,37 revenue th,, years In the ac- observations he might be inclined to make till the
Fred sti, ,r,..Xeis eee oe te - 10th
_saxes
kl. y., .44,,,i ts, ta, the countryoftiOctober, 1'842, period when the sugar and other customs' duties should
qt. even -tax Assessed , , tat arising from come before the House.—(Hear.)
resteltlto is tailliee' am°unted, , the Post-office, Mr. C. WOOD expected the Right Hon. Gentleman
r,i •,a. arha of
money,as near as Possible, to who last spoke would have given some details to show
':•' 'eve nleot, i The . measure sub- the grounds on which he hoped that, during the course
IN . ialie 4, n thatye
tiq'e'•::,„,
;,Ineernc, atnount year ar withdrew from the of the next three years, those sources of revenue which
14 ‘l'llt4l4, a (1-lear, uhretyaxation above 140,0001. were left would so far increase as to enable them to
tteeel ilaktib'e ~,,„,, -..) But. on the 10th of take off the i c e-t 'Hear hear.) He expected
; net boon ree es sew that.
ti.
):,.,. , , , ,
_.,
~ , n om
‘,..ax.-0. _
~
‘..,,
~
~,,,,,,
as "tleed a
644 142 y the amount 0640 001 I that in some ca'se 's
the ‘redtiction of the duty on an
' 32ftrlY 1911Y-Stivela Wail? . stolls article had boon. followed by an increase on another. It