The Sun.
London, England, 1829-02-14 00:00:00

George Eadon, jun., and Thoniaa Brownell Eat!On, Shef-
field, merchants.

. .
and powerful speaker, constitutes a close and formidable
combination, which is capable of forwarding the views of
any foreign and hostile power. Indeed there is no indivi-
dual—a common observer of the political eventi in that
country for the last twelve months.-_who must not have
the candour to acknowledge that this is a faithful picture of
Ireland, under the influence, as it is, of the spirit of the,
Roman Catholic Church. Far different from such a *pith
of daring combination, on the one hand, and of mental de-
gradation, on the other, was that independence of mind
and well regulated love of Civil and Religious Liberty,
which the supporters of our Protestant Constitution have
always exhibited ; and if patriotic individuals in this coun-
try excluded the follower., of the artful and despotic Church
of Rome from political power, arid had the firmness to es-
tablish, on that principle, the inestimable Constitution,
whose blessings we now enjoy; if their successors—well-
tried adherents to the principles of Civil and Religious
Liberty and good Government—preserved that principle of
the Constitution--I trust—or, rather, I will assert it as
my heartfelt conviction, that the decision of your Lord-
ships, on this question, will not be a mean and abject sub-
mission to the usurped power of the spiritual despotism of
Rome, and to the tyrannical measures of sedition and re-
hellion which have been so audaciously attempted in Ire-
land. A spirit of resistance to this dangerous power ac-
tuates every friend of the Protestant Constitution from
one end of the country to the other ; a spirit which daily
displays itself more and more, and which will, lam sure,
at once confound the advocates of the Irish Catholics and the
treasonable agents of the Church of Rome. It has only
to be called into action, which may easily be done by ap-
peals made to the people by means of county meetings, on
the admission of Roman Catholics to Parliament; for it is
well known that the advocates of the Irish Catholics have
too much reason to find fault with those meetings; for
they are conscious that if such an appeal was made to the
middle classes, it would be a death-blow to the plots and
machinations which arc carrying on—to the gross misre-
presentations which are circulated concerning the senti
merits of the people, and to the daring projects of ambition
and insidious attacks on that Constitution which it is the
prayer of this petition your Lordships should defend, and
hand down unimpaired to posterity. I cannot conclude
the few remarks I have humbly offered to your Lord-
ships, without requesting a few moments More of your at-
tention, while I submit some remarks in vindication of the
proceedings of that part of the Protestant community
who, roused by the dangers of the times, and actuated by
their attachment to our Protestant Constitution, were
compelled by the violence of one party and the apathy of
the other, to array themselves under the banners of the
Constitution, and declare themselves the firm and uncom-
promising assertors of its principles. The Protestants of
Ireland were not induced to stand forward to declare their
attachment to that Constitution which they know is the
foundation of whatever civil and religious liberty they en-
joy, until they had looked in vain for redress and protec-
tion to the constituted authorities against the long endured
oppression and violence of the Catholic Association; nor
until they had been told even by a Minister of the Crown,
that all the ties of society were broken and rent asunder.
The Government were pursuing a mischievous neutra-
lity—the impartiality of the administration of justice
was impaired, and the different institutions of the land
were, in the opinions of the mass of the people, under-
going a revolution which threatened, with one com-
mon destruction, all the Protestant establishments
of Ireland ; it was not, my Lords, I say, till then
that the Protestants came forward, as they then did,
boldly, to meet and resist the spirit of rebellion which
stalked over their ill-fated country. Such were the cir-
cumstances under which the Protestants of Ireland were
compelled to stand forward for their own interests, defence,
and protection ; and in no instance have they in the
slightest degree gone beyond that object. I repeat it, my
Lords, the Protestants of Ireland can, in no one instance,
be charged with having outstepped the respect due to, the
laws of their country, which, I trust in God, they will al-
ways have the pride and honour to maintain. They were
cbmpelled, I say, to unite in their defence by the pressure,
too long borne, of the aggregate evils of the continued and
unceasing oppression and violence of their enemies, which
they were forced to suffer under the false and mistaken
system of conciliation. At last they were obliged to stand
forward and endeavour to avert the pending danger, which,
as I said, menaced to destroy in one common ruin, every
thing that was dear to them—their lives, their property,
and, what was above all, their liberties.—(Hear, hear.)—
Such were the circumstances, my Lords, which induced
the Protestants to stand forward in their own defence;
and such will be the circumstances which will call on the
whole Protestant population of England to stand forward
and unite in defence of that Constitution which has been so
long the admiration and envy of the world, and which has
raised this country to the highest pitch of earthly gran-
deur, and given us the possession of liberties which no
country since the foundation of the world has enjoyed.—
But now this Constitution is to be sacrificed to those who,
daring enough to trample on the laws of God and their
country, have set at defiance all the constituted authori-
ties, or who—if they have not done so, let those who
vindicate them deny it—have at least transgressed
every feeling of respect which should be observed to-
wards those who filled the employments of Govern-
ment. It is to be sacrificed by men, too many
of whom have, by professions of attachment to it,
gained the confidence of the great body of Protest-
ants, and who are by that very confidence now placed in
the situations which enable them to make this sacrifice ;
by men, too, who deserted a statesman whose political
character I certainly did not respect, but who will always
bear a distinguished name in the history of this country,
because some of them stated that it was not consisten
with their !principles to belong to a Government favour.

Charles Dutton and Thomas Buckley, Clayhills, Staf-
fordshire, canal-contractors.

James M'Clue and Peter Smeaton, Chichester, Sussex,
tee-dealers.
John Jackson and Robert Delves, Bromley, chemists.
J. D. Whitehead and Edward Whitehead, Oak Tree
NI ills, Saddle worth, Yorkshire, w oollen-d rapers.
George Simpson and William Robinson Carden, New-
gate-street, cheesemongers.
George Boulton Poynton and Thomas Harrison, Oxford-
street, woollen-drapers.
John Jones and James Jones, Liverpool, brick-makers.
Francis Moss and George Heap, Nottingham, silk-
throwsters.

Charles Mawley, Stephen Trees, and Peter King, Re-
gent's-dock, Limehouse.
James Gray and Andrew Gray, Newcastle-upon-Tyne,
merchants.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OI LORDS.-(LAST NIGHT.)

The LORD CUANCELLON. entered the House a few mi-
nutes after Five o'clock.
The Marquis of ANGLESEA presented a petition from
Anglesea, against concessions to the Roman Catholics;
another from the Roman Catholics in different parishes in
the county of Cork, praying for the unqualified repeal of the
Laws affecting Catholics ; also about thirty petitions

from the Ronal' Catholics of parishes in different counties
in Ireland, to the same effect. Ten petitions from parishes
in different counties, praying for the repeal of the Sub-
letting Act ; likewise sixteen petitions, praying for the re-
peal of the Vestry Act.
The Bishop of BRISTOL presented a petition from the

Clergy of his. tliOcese against the Catholic Claims.

petitioners stated, that their opposition to concession to
their Roman Catholic fellow-subjects was founded on an

anxious wish to maintain the integrity of the Protestant
institutions of the country, whch integrity they humbly
conceived would be endangered by the admission to political
power of those professing the tenets of the Church of
Rome. They-considered that the spiritual welfare of their
children and their flocks was involved in the maintenance
of the existing establishments of this Protestant state; and
they implored their Lordships to pause and examine
whether the c;iaracter, as revealed in the history of every
age, of the Church of Rome was compatible with the
secure existence of those establishments. They considered
those establishments essential to good order, to loyalty, and
the welfare of the State; and,
.in strong but temperate

language, gave expression to these feelings which the ap-

prehension of danger to the established Church naturally
engendered. With those sentiments he begged leave, as
the Bishop of the diocese whence the petition came, to say
he entirely concurred ; at the same time that he would
not venture to express an opinion on the intended measures
respecting the Roman Catholics of the Government, till they
were substantively before their Lord,hipss.
The Bishop of DURHAM presented a petition from the
Clergy and Deaconry of St. Asaph, against further con-
cessions to the Catholics.

The Bishop of GLOUCESTER presented two peti-
titiona against further concession.
Lord WESTMORLAND presented two petitions ; one
from Northampton, signed by 1,400 persons of most re-
spectable character, and the other from St. Ives. The ob-
ject of the petitioners was, that no further concessions be
made to the Catholics. In delivering these petitions
he concurred in the spirit of the petitioners, though he
differed in 'curt from the advice they gave. For,
in considering the safety of the Protestant Institutions,
it was wise and proper to consider in what situation the
country was, and whether, by some alteration in the
laws, the dangerous power of the Catholics might not
be very much restricted, and the Protestant interests
greatly consulted. This was net a time for considering
the question, and therefore all he would recommend both
in this House and in the country, was a temperate consi-
deration of this question.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Great as
was the distress of Ireland the danger was not there, the
(Linger was in the increase of Catholic power,not in Ireland,
but in the Noble Lords opposite. They had heard that his
Majesty's servants were unable to maintain the due
authority of the Icing, Such was the dissension of opi-
nion among Protestants, that they could not exercise the
Protestant power, a power of the State, because not
only in this House, but in all parts •f the country,
the Protestant power was divided against itself, which, but
for that, it would be able to do. He begged their Lord-
ships to u6nsider the subject coolly, and see whether by
due exertions they could not unite the Protestants in
one cause, and to maintain the British Constitution. His
own sentiments on the Catholic qoption were unchanged,
but at the same time he admitted that the state of things
in Ireland, and the altered circumstances of that coun-
try, as stated by his Majesty's Ministers, induced him
to re-consider that question with a view to its final
settlement. It was said by Mr. Pitt that any of these
concessions would be most injurious, unless accom-
panied by the fair conviction of the opinion of
the people. He ob,oold reserve his opinions for the pur-
pose of seeing what was irgended to be proposed, what to
be removed, or what substituted, 444 when he saw these
things he should give his vote to that measure which
would tend to the quiet of the Empire, and to the main-
tenance and strength of the British Constitution as it now
exists. _ _

Lord FITZWILLIAM present,ad hrce petitions from
Killala and Wicklow in Ireland, and ong Awn Hull, in
favour of the Catholic Claims.

Lord GWYDYR presented a petition from Whitby,
and another from Ripon, in Yorkshire, to the same effect.
The Duke of NEWCASTLE, in presenting several peti-
tions against the Catholic Claims, said that in his own
county the feelings against the Catholics were very great,
and be could assure the Noble Duke at the head
of his Majesty's Government, that by far the great
majority of the north of England were against conces-
sion. Feeling that this was so, he hoped the Noble
Duke would not hurry the ,question on to the direful con-
sequences that might ensue. keeilig the course adopted,
and the feelings that existed in.conseq4ence, he hoped the
Noble Duke, haying done so once, would feel ni; difficulty
in turning again. The Noble Duke then presented
a petition from the Barbera and Surgeons of Durham,
another from Matlock, Derby, and four from different
parishes in Nottingham to the same &Kat.
Lord CLARE presented eleven petitions from parishes in
Irelanl in favour of the Roman Catholic Claims, and pearly
a dozen against the Sub-letting Act.
Lord SIDMOUTH presented a petition against the Ro-
man Catholic Claims, and which embodied the opinions
he had long, held and would continue to cherish.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented a great
number of petitions Imo various parts of Ireland, in
favour of the Catholic Claims, fur the repeal of the Sub-let-
ting Act, and against the Vestry Acts.
Lord LORTON presented five petitions from Dissenters,
freeholders and inhabitants in eountiea in Ireland, against
further concessions to the Catholics, and against the Sub.
letting Act.
The Duke of RICHMOND pawented three petitions
against concessions.
The Duke cf DEVONSHIRE presented six petitions
from Roman Catholics of Ireland in favour of thseir
THE KENT PETITION.

The Earl of WINCHILSEA then rose—l rise, my
Lords, pursuant to the notice I gave, to present a petition,
most numerously and respectably signed by a great body
of the freeholders of Kent, praying that your Lordships
will preserve inviolate in all its integrity the Protestant
Constitution of these realms; but, in justios to my own
feelings, not less than to the feelings of the highly respect-
able body who have entrusted their petition to me, I can-
not content myself without offering a Jew brief observations
connected with the deep importance of the. subject of that
petition—a subject which engrosses the attention of the
empire at large, and on which, I am rejokeeil to add, the
people haie of late so unequivocally displayed a decided
and highly constitutional feeling, not only in Kent and
Devonshire, but is 'other parts of the country—a feeling
which, I am convinced in my own mind, will soon be
found in every quarter of this island.—(Hear, hear.)—ln
drawing the attention of your Lordships to the prayer of
this petition, which was carried by y large and triumphant
majority at a county meeting on Penenden Heath, it was
not my intention to occupy your Lordships' time oue mo-
ment longer than may be necessary, while I use my en-
deavours to assert the loyalty, the sound principles of
liberty, and the attachment to our Protestant Constitu-
tion, which characterised the thousands who were there
assembled to give a public expression of their political sen-
timents, on a question which they consider involves the
existence of their long cherished liberties, and to resist, by
the exercise of one of their most ancient and constitu-
tional privileges, the attempts now ping on to subvert
our Protestant Constitution, and to erect nn its ruins
that love of slavery and arbitrary power which bas inva-
riably resulted from the political principles dissemi-
nated by the dupes and agents of the Church of Rose,
in order to extend the Papal influence—an influence of
a dangerous and fatal character—an influence which
has for some years been daily increasing in Ireland, and
which, as it now exists, together with the various links of
ecclesiastical discipliner it Las been proved by an eloquent

ahle to concessions to the Catholics (hear, hear, hear !).
There are individuals in this House, to whose desertion of
that eminent statesman we may justly attribute the short-
ening of his life; and if we wished to have the gratification
of witnessing the justice of late, we see it now in the

condition and feelings of those who deserted him (hear,
hear !). Stoongly as I feel, I find it wholly impossible
adequately to express the sense of those who have constitu-
tionally a voice in altering the existing institutions of the
country. But Ido entreat the Noble Duke at the head
of his. Majesty's Government, as he values the high cha-
racter he earned in the defence of his country, not for a
moment to endanger his own reputation, nor the honour,
character, and security of the Crown, by advising it to
give its assent to a measure—[The Noble Earl here, us
he had very frequertly in the course of his speech, dropped
his voice so as to render the conclusion of his sentence
. entirely inaudible.]
The Duke of WELLINGTON (who was listening at-
tentively) exclaimed, Speak up !
The Earl of WINCHILSEA continued :—A measure,
my Lords, which I do say, if it should he carried now, is
against the express feeling of the country. Many of the
Members now in the other House, were returned to repre-
sent places on the ground of their attachment to those prin-
ciples of the Constitution which all parties up to a certain
period agreed in upholding. These Members, by aban-
doning the principles which they pretend still to maintain,
have in fact ceased to be the representatives of their con-
stituents ; and the franchise should be given back to the
people, in order that they may decide this question ; for I
boldly state that the voice of the people is against it; and
though I am a staunch friend to all parts of the Gnistitu-
don, and especially to the Crown and this Noble House, I
yer will suffer the rights of the people to be despised, or
trample.d opon. I say again, my Lords, that the voice of
the people is not fqr the Catholics, and that, if the people
are appealed to, they will show it is not. (Hear, hear.) I
will further say, that if the Bill pass through both Houses,
and an appeal be not made to the country by a dissolution
of Parliament before the Royal Assent be given to it, it
will be clear that its friends know the voice of time people
is against it. I will also explicitly declare, that if the peo-
ple of Great Britain, by their representatives, returned after
a general election, shoidd agree to the change taking place
in the Constitution, however strong my feelings against it,
and however I may still retain my opinion that fatal con_
sequences must ensue from it, I shall submit—_-fer I am
sure I bear no personal hostility to any member of the
Church of Rome; for, with many of them I am on terms
of the strictest intimacy and friendship, and I believe they
entertain as much respect for me as for many of those who
advocate their claims, because they know that I am as
sincere as they are in those religions professions, opinions,
and principles, which are inconsistent with the exist-
ence of our Protestant Constitution. I will honestly s4y
that if I were a Roman Catholic, I should entertain the
seine feelings, and if I had political power once in my hands,
I should never be content until I saw the Roman CAithiaie
Church restored to the full elevation and dignity of the
station from which we Protestants overthrew it. Such
being my feelings, it is no wonder t shool4eccasionally ex-
press myself warmly ; but I am desirous always to speak
with earnest respect of every man's opinion, if it be consis-
tently and conscientiously entertained. But Ido implore
your Lordships, before you agree to any such proposition
as may essentially change th principles of the Constitution
with regard to the admission of the Rornan Catholics to
political:power, to consider well what you have beff3re
you, and to examine with scrupulous care the Bill that

_ - ---.
may be introduced fcr that purpose. I remember that for-
merly, when I have reproached the freeholders of Kent, at
the County Elections, with not taking part in this ques-
tion, and have said, "Why are you neutral in your. send-
....

Janata 911 this great political question ?" The answer wail,

14,,,,t1,

s-L
eeßeca se we confide in the Upper House,,AVOrete pros ft which he clad before alluded, and Welch he held in his
fessions we have received from our Represeneetives of their hand. The object of the petition was, not the destruc-
agreement in those principles in which we all concur." I tion, but the preservation of the Protestant Constitution of
confess, for my own part, that after what I have heard, all l the country ; for he must be allowed to maintain that the
political confidence is shaken in my mind. But if my best security that could be desired for the Protestant Con-
opinions be against the express feeling of those who have stitution consisted in the admission of all parties to an
a constitutional voice, I will bow to it ; for never will equal participation in its privileges. His Noble Friend
I belong to any factious or frivolous Opposition.will uot, (Earl Winchelsea) thought otherwise ;he thought, that in
however strong my feelings may be, do any thing to agitate persisting in the conduct which had hitherto pursued upon
or exciteethe public mind ; but Ido feel that this question this question, he was depriving the Catholics of power--
is essentially important to the interests of the country, and more properly speaking, preventing them from attaining
that its future consequences will be of a most dangerous privileges, the exercise of which, in their persons, would
and fatal character. Whatever may be the views of your be dangerous to the State. But was there no dangerous
Lordships, and however severe may he the animadversions power now residing in the hands of the Roman Catholics,in
on my conduct, I will appeal with confidence to the judg- consequence of the very measures intended to prevent its
ment of those who have a constitutional voice in the existence,—these unjust measures which it was at length
country. The letter of mine to which reference was made determined to get rid of? Could a more dangerous power
last night is not perhaps so clear as it might be ; for I reside in the hands of the Roman Catholics than that at
have no intention to apply my observations to those who present enjoyed by the Forty shilling Freeholders, as they
have consistently advocated the removal of all civil disabi- had led to exercise it in consequence of these unjust mea-
lities from the Roman Catholics. They are men whom I sures ?By making all ranks and classes of our fellow-sub-
respect and honour; but, as 1 stated before, my political jests reasonably satisfied, or giving them cause so to he, by
confidence is for ever gone, since I have seen the defenders an equal distribution of privileges, the danger would be
of the Protestant Ascendancy desert their principles. I lessened instead of augmented. He could not imagine any
will even go further, and say I think the ties of private real danger to be created by investing Roman Catholics
friendship are broken by such conduct : for the man with a fair share of political power. But be did see tre-
whose public character I cannot respecebecauee he is not found mendous danger in leaving things in their present situation.
to be firm and consistent, can never be entitled to my friend- Anxious as he had always been for the consummation of
ship or esteem. No confidence or reliance, it seems to me, this great question, he thought it could never have been
can now be placed in any man engaged in public life, from so well carried as under existing circumstances it was
the Crown downwards, unless we have aihorough knowledge likely to be. He would proceed to read the petition to
of the individual, and are certain that he possesses sound their Lordships, though perhaps it was not quite regular
moral and religious principles. I shall now, my Lords, to do so. It was signed by nearly 2,000 freeholders •of
lay before your Lordships the petition which I have the Kent; and he . believed, had equal pains been taken with
honour to present; and I beg to say, that if I have at any respect to it as were taken in getting up the counter peti-
time, in the heat of debate, expressed myself too strongly tiou, that the result would have been still more favour-
with regard to any individual, either within these walls or able to the cause of liberality. He was convinced, as he
without, if he acts with conscience and principle, lam had before stated, that a spirit of inquiry had arisen
sorry to have given him offence. on this subject, and that a change had taken place in
The petition was read at length. men's minds. The meeting at which the petition was
Lord CALTHORPE said, though he was quite unpre- agreed to had been convened by the High Sheriff of the
pared to address their Lordships that evening, yet he could county, pursuant to requisition. The petitioners expressed
not refrain from intruding on their attention for a few mo- their opinion that the general interest of the State would
ments, with respect to two points stated by the NoWe Earl be best consulted by a free admission of all parties to civil
who had just resumed his seat. In the first place, as a privileges. This question, however, they were content to
Protestant of Ireland, he wished to state that he was de- leave to the deliberate wisdom of Parliament for decision ;
sirous in his owe name to avoid being mixed up with those and they approached the House with confidence on the sub-
sentiments which the Noble Earl had stated as being almost ject, convinced as they were that the Legislature would do
universal among the Protestants of Ireland. He had had its duty. Such were the sentiments contained in the peti-
the honour to affix his signature to a document in support tion which he had thought himself entitled to read, because
of what was in common parlance called 'Catholic Emanci- he himself was the author of it (a laugh),_and because the
pation, and among the other names there was a very great petitioners expressed their perfect confidence that Parlia-
number of Protestants, some of the highest rank in Ireland, ment would adopt such measures as might be most condu-
and whose landed possessions consisted of vast tracts of cive to the general good. When he (Earl Darnley) knew
property. He admitted that a feeling did exist of an anti- that the Noble Duke had expressed a wish to settle the Ca-
Catholic nature, but he must say also that there was a atone Question, he could never doubt that his Noble Friend
very strong Protestant feeling in Ireland in favour of the would be able to find the means of doing so in a satisfac-
Catholic claims. Some Protestants did reside there ; but tory manner. He knew the difficulties which the Noble
he felt for his own part that in the present state of Ireland Duke had to contend with, hut hoped and trusted that he
they had neither a secure tenure nor a • cemfortable resie would 'succeed in spite of opposition in carrying his mea-
dence, and that they were driven away and compelled to be sures into effect. He trusted that a majority of their Lord-
absentees by the state of society, which it was difficult for ships, as well as the other House of Parliament, would stand
any man to endure. With respect to the strong animad- by his Majesty's Ministers, and assist them in the accom-
versions of the Noble Earl on the Catholic Association, he plishment of their 'great work. The Noble Earl (Winchel-
would only remark, that when complaints were made of sea) had urged the propriety of a dissolution of Parliament
immense multitudes they had brought together, for sedi- for the purpose of taking the sense of the country upon this
done purposes it was alleged, the charge came with ill grace question, It was unnecessary to say that he (Earl Darn-
from the Noble Earl, who was boasting that he presented ley) disapproved of the suggestion. Besides; the Noble
this petition from an immense body of the Freeholders of Lord could not dissolve the House of Peers, supposing it to
Kent, assembled at Penenden Heath. lie would say no- pronounce an opinion favourable to the Roman Catholics.
thing against that Meeting,: as he considered the Free- The House of Commons had more than once carried the
holders of Kent had only exercised a constitutional privi. question, and it was not to be supposed that in the present
lege that belonged to them. But he would hint to the state of men's minds a dissolution would have an unfavour-
Noble Earl that when he found fault with the great meet- able effect upon it. So much for the present House of
inns in Ireland, he should, on the ether hand, consider Commons. Did the Noble Earl suppose, when the opi-
the grievances they suffered. The other point related to nion of Government was known on this subject, that any
'the conduct of those who had changed their opinions as to other House of Commons could be found more likely to re-
the concession of the Catholic claims. He could assure the silt the settlement of the question? He apologized to their
Noble Earl that the feelings with which he had heard the Lordships for the length of time lie had occupied their at-
announcement from the Throne were those of great and tention, but considering his situation and the relation in
muningled gratification ;, and he was the more gratified by which he stood not only to the county of Kent but to Ire-
finding those Ministers, who had before been opposed to land, be felt it to be his duty to say thus much upon a sub-
concessions, come forward and avow their conviction that ject of such vital importance. The Noble Earl having
it was now necessary. It was aenatter of sincere delight moved that the petition be brought up, concluded by an
to him that the question was now in a train to be settled. expression of his confidence in the Noble Duke at the head
The Earl of DARNLEY was not disposed to detract of the Government, " who he sincerely trusted, in the ac.
from the motives or from the respectability of the great complishment of this vitally important measure, might find
meeting of the gentry, clergy, and freeholders of a county that he had secured the first bright civic crown that states-
in which both the Noble Earl and he resided. He knew man had ever obtained."
well the zeal and energy of that Noble Lord, and he The Earl of WINCHELSEA hoped for the indulgence
honoured them both as long as they kept within bounds.— of the House while he offered a few observations 'on what
It would be the part of a bigot to wish to exclude all but had just fallen from the Noble Earl. First, he begged
Protestants from the fullest share of the blessings of the Con- leave to congratulate him on the satisfaction he must have
stitution. It was not until last summer, he believed, that derived from reading and referring to his own petition.—
amongst the resident gentry and nobility of the county of (Hear, bear.)
Kent any thing like a difference on political subjects had Earl GREY interposed. He did not desire to stand in
been suffered to break up social ties and kindly feelings.—.. the way of the Noble Earl, if he lied 'anything to say that
What had effected this change he could scarcely divine.— came within the understood line of explanation. If he
Much had been said of causes of alarm and danger.. He rose in order to make comments on what had fallen from
might say nil horum : vellum et grandis epistola vent. other Noble Lords, according to the usage of the House
After the receipt of this letter it suggested itself to the the proper time for doing so would be at the close of the
Noble Earl to take upon himself the task of enlightening discussion.
the men of the Isle of Thanet, and other parts of Kent, on The Earl of WINCHELSEA expressed his readiness
political subjects. Subsequently also to the receipt of to give way to the Noble-Earl.
this Royal Duke's letter the Brunswick Clubs began to be Earl GREY proceeded. The present is not a fit occa
formed. There were many reasons alleged for their crea- sion for debating at large that great question so vitally af-
tion. It wes confessed that several acts committed from fecting the interests of the country, which, I trust, at an
time to time in Ireland could not be justified; but after all, early period will be brought before us in the shape of a bill
there ought to be some allowance made for persons in a to be proposed in the most advantageous manlier, by his
state of such constant excitation from political circum- Majesty's Ministers, for the relief of the Roman Catholics
stances as the people of Ireland bad for some time been. from the civil disabilities of which they at present com-
The Brunswick Clubs, he sincerely believed, had not been plain. But although I feel that this is not the proper
called for in this country as they had perhaps been in Ire- opportunity for entering upon the general subject, I can-
land. Certainly they could not be rendered necessary here not, without difficulty, avoid touching upon it while atl-
as a measure of self-defence. His Lordship objected to verting to what has fallen from the Noble Earl who pre-
the petition as having represented the sense of the county seated the petition, and explaining time course of my con.
fairly : still less did the meeting fairly represent time per- duct and the state of my feelings. As to the petition itself, I
sons of those supposed by the signatures to the petition may say with my Noble Friend, that its terms are per-
to he concerned in, or expected by the terms of the fectly harmless : putting my own construction upon those
requisition to be attendant on the meeting. Many terms—convinced of the importance of the question, and
of them were no other than day labourers hired to attend, of the necessity, for the safety of the empire, of bringing it
or brewers' men employed in carrying placards and stand- to a speedy, satisfactory, and final determination, and corn-
ands in_the train, to put down by their shouts and cia- paring it with the opinions I have -maintained through
moor those who opposed the Noble Earl.—(Laughter.)—lt good report and through evil report,-1 am not aware that
was not possible to deny the Noble Earl and his party had there is a single word in the petition to which I would not
a majority, but it was only a clear majority. It must be myself have heartily subscribed. The petitioners state their
admitted that at the meeting in question, a majority of " deep sense of the blessings they enjoy under the Pro-
those present appeared to be opposed to what be (Lord testant Constitution as established at the Revolution."-._l
Darnley) conceived to be the just claims of the Roman Ca- participate with the people of Kent in their deep sense of
tholics. But he could not allow that the great body of the the blessings we enjoy.—( Near, hear.) In the next clause
freeholders of that county, any more than those of the they tell us, that " they feel them imperatively called upon
country generally, was hostile to the favourable adjustment to declare their strong and inviolable attachment to the
of these claims. Thc petition which he held in his hand Protestant principles, which have been proved to be the
proved that a spirit of inquiry was raised in Kent with re- best security for the civil and religious liberty of these
spect to this subject, and those who were unfavourable to, kingdoms." I will not yield to the Noble Earl, to the
or did not understand the question before, were now in a people of Kent, nor to any man in the empire in a strong
different situation, Since the meeting on Penenden-heath and inviolable attachment to those Protestant principles
be was happy to say it had come to his knowledge that -a which have been proved to be the best security for the civil
nuinber of converts had been made among the freeholders and religious liberty of these kingdoms.—(Hear, hear.)—
of Kent, to what he had always considered, and ever Lastly, the petitioners pray, that " the Constitution of the
should continue to consider, the good cause. He called it United Kingdom may be preserved entire and inviolate,"
the good cause, as involving the best and most important I, too, pray, that it may be so preserved—esto per-
interests of the country. He was ready to give credit to petua is my sincere and ardent prayer—and, that it
the Noble Earl for a desire not to embarrass Ministers in may be perpetual, I wish to see it freed from the danger
the course which they had pursued. At the same time, to which it is now exposed ; that it may he perpetual, I
in spite of the representations made by those who thought wish to see the people contented and united, and ready
differently from him (Earl Darnley) upon this subject, to maintain and defend the Constitution against all assail-
and notwithstanding the clamour raised by the more ar- ants (hear, hear !). For this reason I have long advo-
dent of his opponents, he himed and trusted that the good cated that measure, which Ministers, with manly firm-
sense of the country would perceive that our salvation as a ness, and a due regard to plain dealing, at no distant po-
state depended not on the Constitution being continued riod are about themselves to introduce into Parliament.
exclusive, but in the success of the measure which it was I have said thus much of the petition, because I think it
understood to be the intention of his Majesty's Ministers material, with a view to answer one part of the question
to propose for the adoption of the Legislature. The much dwelt upon by the Noble Earl. The Noble Earl
Noble Lord was extremely severe on those who entertained stated to-day, and another Noble Earl (Lord Falmouth),
different opinions from his own. He (Earl Darnley) could now in his place on the Cross-bench, stated yesterday,
not object to this. Convinced as lie was, since he had that the great majority of the people of England (I think
first entered upon public life, of the policy and justice of they said nine-tenths of the population) were decidedly
emancipating the Catholics, he had not now one doubt opposed to concession to the Roman Catholic's. Both the
upon time subject. At the same time he felt that he should Noble Earls took what I considered a most extraordinary
tier be justified in attributing unworthy motives to men, course, when they recommended Ministers, in order to
who, like his Noble Friend, having been bred up in dif- ascertain the real sense of the people, advise his Majesty
ferent sentiments, bad formed an opinion that the only to exercise his high prerogative by resorting to a dissolu-
effectual method of supporting the Protestant Constitution tion of Parliament. Is it decent in debate—is it consti-
was by means of an exclusive system. He could find ttitional—is it consistent with the rights and privileges of
many excuses for such persons. He also found it easy the other House of Parliament, for Peers to rise in their
to believe that political men might conscientiously change places and arraign the blouse of Commons as base and de-
the opinions which they had long held in all sin- generate, as toot representing the people, and as ready to
cerity with respect to this question. So far from being sacrifice that Quinstitution it is bound to defend? Is it decent
disposed to undervalue men on that account, he considered —is it constitutional, in any Noble Lord to hold such lan-
thew conscientious change of sentiment as an additional guage regarding the other branch of the Legislature, and still
claim to Isis esteem, It was invidious to say that his Ma- less to call on the King to return the House of Commons
jesty's linisters bad acted under the influence of fear or to the people with strong marks of the Royal displeasure,
the course which they bad deter. injurious to the character of the Crown and to the inte-
mrests of the State.--(Hear, beer.) I trust such expres-
einiffitinelenrd to t
eindtafiriOnuilt.tisnutlet. that of
his is idea of real courage was perhaps Noble Friend (the Earl of Win- 510115 only arose from a temporary ebullition of feeling the
chelsea), and he thought that the worst aed most despic- Noble Lords were unable ko controul, which upon More
Ole of all fears was, for a man who thought himself right, calm reflection, they will be ready to recall. Appeal to the
who kit strong in the justice and expediency of the course people ! Why, have there not been many appeals,
and
he was pursuing, to be afraie lest he should be thought does not the Noble Earl forget all that has passed upon
afraid, and thus allow himself to be diverted from his this subject for the last five and twenty years? The ques-
enterprise. He had no doubt that such was the view tion began to be agitated before 1807, when I was an
under which
dthos undergone
his Majesty's Ministers whose bumble and an unworthy member of an Administration
sentiments had an alteration had acted : he which was removed from power because it attempted to
had as little doubt that these individuals had changed ' give relief to the Rolnan Catholics. The relief we con-
ro
their opieions from sincerely conscientious motives. He templated was afterwards granted,; and in 1817 a Bill
could not conclude without congratulating his Noble, his was passed for the purpose, by the very persons who, ten
among
distinguished, and gallant Friend at the head of the go- years before, had raised all the objectiops to our measure.
vernment, on the part he had taken and the prospect which (Hear, hear, hear.) With us, when the subject came on
me
was befWg us, He would read the words of the petition •to be agitated, it was discussed,:tinhappily, too much as a

party question ; and among all the great benefits arising
from this proceeding, from that date to the present auspi-
cious' hour, at least, it cannot now be said that it is made
a party question. I hope that even the ill-judged intempe-
rance of the Noble Earl, and his over-zealous friends will
never be able to make it so.—(Much cheering.) The Ad-
ministration to which I have' alluded was dismissed from
his Majesty's Councils in consequence of having propoied
the measure which was subsequently carried by its op-
ponents, and in consequence of having refused to give
a pledge which they felt to be inconsistent with their
duty as Privy Councillors, and inconsistent with the oath
they had taken to give their best advice to the Sovereign
on the Throne. The Ministers of 1807 having been dis-
missed, an appeal was made to the people, for the Parlia-
ment was dissolved. What was the result ? Immediately
after the meeting of. the two Houses, a motion was made
in the Co:nmons for taking the Catholic Question into
consideration, and it was carried by a majorityof 129 votes.
Such was the effect of the first appeal to the people. Here
too, it should be observed, that this Parliament was assem-
bled after the cry of "No Popery" and " Church and
King"—after every expedient had been •resorted to, to in-
fluence the people and to operate upon vulgar prejudices—
after they had been told that liberty, property, every thing
was at stake—the bitterest feelings of animosity bad been
excited, and yet the House; so constituted, and so convened,
had voted in favour of the Roman Catholics, by a majority
of 129. Another appeal was made to the people in 1612 ;
a new Parliament was then chosen, and the House of Com-
mons again decided on behalf of their claims, by a majority,
if I recollect rightly, of 40 Members. Another dissolution
took place in 1818, and after the two Houses had assem-
bled, I certainly cannot state that a majority was found in
favour of the question ; the weight of numNitie was un-
questionably the other way; but the prepouder
ce was so
trifling that I really forget whether it was two or four
votes. The House of Commons was nearly equally divided,
although all the influence of Government was exerted to de
feat the friends of concession. Another appeal to the people
was made in 1820, and in that Parliament the Catholic Ques-
tion was brought forward on no less than three separate
occasions. In 1821 a majority voted in favour's:of a Bill,
which, in consequence, was introduced, and, in 1822,
there was again a considerable majority in favour of a mea-
sure brought on by a Right Hon. Gentleman, now no
more, of whose talents no man feels higher admiration
than myself. - The object of that Bill was to enable Roman
Catholic Peers to sit in the House of Lords. In 1825 there
was another Bill, and another majority. We then come to
the year 1826, when the last dissolution took place, and
the last appeal was made to the people. In 1826 a ma-
jority of the House of Commons again voted in favour of
concession to the Roman Catholics. Undoubtedly, in 1827,
the decision was in a contrary direction, but the majority
was slight and narrow ; and those who advert to the cir-
cumstances under which the question, was introduced, I
think will find that the decision was not upon the merits of
the claims. In 1828, however,-the subject was resumed
for the last time, and the just demands of the Roman Ca-
tholics were establiihed by a majority of six. I cannot,
indeed, call that majority considerable, but, under all the
circumstances, it afforded a strong indication of the feeling
of the House of Commons. With this evidence before us,
then, I ask the Noble Earl what new appeal is necessary to
the people?—(Hear, hear.)-1 have already expressed Tay
opinion of the propriety of proposing such a measure
in this House ; and on that subject 1 shall now say no more
than that my belief is, that if a dissolution were to take
place, it would not produce results at all more favourable
to the views and wishes of the Noble Earl. When, there-
fore, I look at the assertions of the Noble Earl as to the
general sentiment of the inhabitants of the country, and
when I look at the known and admitted proofs upon the
subject, he must allow me to arrive at a very opposite
conclusion. I well know, that on such a point judgments
must vary according to the opportunities of information
and the particular views of the party endeavouring to ar-
rive at a conclusion ; but here I am supported by indis-
putable facts—by the repeated votes of the House of Com-
mons after appeals had been made to the people by five
successive dissolutions. Notwithstanding the two insigni-
ficant exceptions to which I have adverted, I maintain that,
there has existed an uniform disposition in the other branch
of tie Legislature to afford relief to the Roman Catholics.
As far as the sense of the people could be ascertained by
the sentiments of their Members, it is clear that the ma-
jority was decidedly in favour of an act of justice to their
Roman Catholic brethren.—(Hear, hear, hear.)—Sure I
am that a dissolution is the most constitutional mode of
collecting the opinion of the nation. I know not what
the Noble Earl may think of the question of Parliamen-
tary Reform ; for aught I know he may go the radical
length of denying that the, House of Commons, as at
present constituted, does not fitly represent the people
of this country. As he is so ready with his advice for
dissolution, he may be equally prepared to recom-
mend Reform. I have been all my life au advu
cote for Parliamentary Reform, by applying fit reme-
dies to obvious, notoriows, and admitted defects ; not
aiming at theoretical perfection, but at practical improves
ment ; and I, therefore, am of opinion that, to a certain
degree; the state of the representation is capable of amend-
ment. But although I would make some useful changes,
I still think that the influence of public opinion upon the
Nouse is so strong, as, in many instances, to satisfy the
cravings of the most visionary reformer. Seeing, then,
that on all those occasions when the subject of the Catholic
Claims has been agitated the House of Commons has voted
in their favour, in my mind it establishes a conviction that
the majority of the people is decidedly friendly to this great
measure of national justice and general conciliation. Having
said thus much, I am not aware that it is necessary for rue
to add more on the question of public opinion ; but when
County Meetings are held, there always will be disputes as
to the character of the Meeting, and whether the petition
speaks more or less the sentiments of the freeholders at
large. Many petitions have certainly been presented from
different places, but from two counties only have represen..
tations of the kind been brought before the House. The
Noble Earl thinks the success of his friends in Kent
,triumphant ; but from all the accounts that have reached
me, lam led to believe that the real majority of frees
holders was narrow and insignificant. The appears
ante of a larger majority was produced by those who
were not freeholder:;, and who went to Penenden Heath
for the especial purpose of overawing and controuling
those who only had a right to vote. My conviction is
the same with respect to Devonshire, the only ether county
in which a petition has been got np. I believe that a
great proportion of the wealth, property, and infiuence of
the country was in favour of the great measure soon to be
introduced. I can speak from positive information, that
the most undue and unjustifiable means -were adopted to
procure a colourable majority : persons were brought to the
spot whose physical force was intended to keep the free-
holders in check; and these persons were marshalled and
urged on by persons wearing the garb of our holy religion,
who did not scruple to mingle in the crowd to cheer andi
animate their friends, and to revile and discomfit tbeik,
opponents. (Much cheering.) This is oneaaf the cows,
ties, be it remembered, in which a Noble Viscount fester,
day asserted.that the majority of the inhabitants was deci •
dedly hostile to the Claime. The Noble Earl (Winchel-
sea) declared to-night, and I own the declaration surprised
me, that he would be,the last man to endeavour to agitate
the public mind. Is that so 9 Have I been under-a mis-
take ? Is that letter, signed Winchelsea and Notting-
ham, published in all the newspapers ;the production of the
Noble Earl; and if it be so, can he assert that he does not
wish to agitate or excite the people against the Members of
the King's GoVernment ? (Hear, hear.) It bears, in-
deed, a very different character to the speech of the Noble
Lord ; but I trust and believe, that his invitation will not
be followed by the answer he anticipates. Excepting the
clamours of the Noble Earl, I perceive nothing but silence •
silence, they say, gives consent, and we may interpret that
silence into an approbation of the just and beneficent
measure to be brought in and supported by. Ministeraes--
Agitation is a word that cannot be too strongly delve,
cated in and out of the House ; and I treat that no
agitator, whether ISrunswick or Catholic, will be able
to excite the people of England, and induce them to reject
the controul of that good sense for which they have so long
been remarkable. If the Bill be carried, the Noble Earl
himself tells us that he will acquiesce in it, and six months
after it has been passed, I am persuaded, that men will hold
up their hands in wonder at their own foolish and-formi-
dable anticipations. Let the people be left to the exercise
of their own judgment and discretion, and they will chew
no violence either in favour or against this measure ; and I
am borne out in this opinion by circumstances that occur-
red at the last General Election. One of the members for
Cornwall is a man of the most liberal politics (Mr. Pen-
darves) ; he is a friend to Parliamentary Reform, on its
broadest basis, and a strenuous and enlightened advocate for
the Catholic rights, and yet, against all in the influence of
the Tories of the county, he was triumphantly returned by
an overwhelming majority. I must, therefore, say, that
in this instance the selection of the Noble Earl (Falmouth)
was a little unfortunate; and it only spews the difficulty he
experiences in finding arguments to support his opinions.
I therefore contend that the public sentiment is in favour
of concession ; and in their endeavours to bestow trust
that the King's Ministers will be supported by this as well
as by the other House of Parliament, with as much zeal as
I shall be happy to display by the devotion to their service
in this great cause of such abilities as God has given me.
I am satisfied that the people of England is decidedly friendly
to this salutary and only too tardy work of benevolence and

•
Justice. The noble Earl has again to-night made a violent
attack on the consistency of his Majesty's Ministers. It is
quite enough for me to defend my own consistency, and I
have no business to take charge of that of others—least of
all, of that of the present servants of the Crown. They
are themselves fully competent to the task ; and to say the
truth, it will be no very difficult undertaking, whether I
consider the nature of their cause or the abilities of their
antagonists. Theirschange of conduct arises from a change
of opinion, and that change is a proof not only of their wis-
dom and honesty, but of the strength and soundness of
their attachment to the Constitution. The Noble Earl
asks what new circumstances have produced it? 'What
eireamstancee ! My answer is, on what side do not cir-
cumstances present themselves warranting such a change in
any minds not closed against the elements of facts, and the
lessens of experience ?—(Hear.)—That things cannot re-
rnain as they are, is now evident to the most superficial
observer; another course must be taken to steer the
vessel of the State safely among the perilous rocks and
shoals by which she is surrounded. What circumstances?
is a divided Administration nothing? That evil has been
stated in another place in stronger terms than any I could
employ, and that it was dangerous to the interest of the
Btate is not to me a new opinion. I have not only ex-
Pressed it freivently in debate, but it stands recorded in a
letter written by me in conjunction with a Noble Friend,
whoeeabsence from the House we have all reason to regret.
Ilad he been present, with what meritorious zeal would
we have advocated that cause which he so long supported,
;lid on which of old he so often delivered his honest, en-
lightened, and statesman-like opinions. It was proposed
t° us to form part of a conjunct Administration, consisting,
among others, of indWiduals in whose principles we could
riot concur, and I well remember the letter we jointly ad-
dressed to a Royal and Illustrious Duke, now dead, whose
name I cannot mention without respect and affection. Un-
doubtedly, on many political questious, I had the misfor-
tune to differ from the Duke of York, and when he pro-
Posed the formation of an Administration, consisting of
Lord Grenville, myself, and others of discordant sentiments,
we answered the call upon us in a letter, from which I
I'eg leave to read to your Lordships the following ex-
tract :......
" We beg leave most earnestly to assure his Royal High-
ness that no sacrifices. except those of honour and duty
of healing
appear to us too great to be- made for the purpose
!leafing the divisions of our country, and uniting both
itc government and its people. All personal exclusion we
te°irely disclaim ; we rest on public measures ; and it is en
,
" ground alone that we must express without reserve the
kin Possibility of our uniting with the present Government.
fur differences of opinion are too many and important to
admit of such an union. His Royal Highness will, we are
cOI
dent,-do us the justice to remember that we have twice
~atly acted on this impression ; in 1809, on the propo-
"on then made to us, under his Majesty's authority, and
last Year, when his Royal Highness was pleased to request
°ut advice respecting the formation of a new Government.
li
breasons which we then humbly submitted to him arc
gthened by the increasing dangers of the times ; nor
there, down to this moment, appeared even any ap--
lloaimation towards such an agreement of opinion on
re Public interests, as can alone form a basis for the
"nourable union of parties previously opposed to each
other.
" Into the detail of these differences we are unwilling
henter; they embrace almost all the leading features of
n e Present policy or the empire; but his Royal High-
depe° has, himself, been pleased to advert to the late
Zberations of Parliament on the affairs of Ireland.—
i° is a subject, above all others, important in itself,
and _ . .
frn_.oonected with the most pressing dangers. Far
It/ituri concurring in the sentiments which his Majesty's
pr ilters have, on that occasion, so recently ex-
6reeled, we entertain opinions directly opposite; we are
„.l persuaded of the necessity of a total change in the
rrn'esent system of government in that country, and of the
ii tuediate repeal of those civil disabilities under which so
large a portion of his Majesty's subjects still laboured on
aZo
arlunt of their religious opinions. To recommend to
iament this repeal, is the first advice which it would
ee. -
:our duty to offer to his Royal Highness ;
.nor could we,
riven for the shortest time, make ourselves responsible for
which delay in the proposal of a measure, without
,_ . h we could entertain no hope of rendering ourselves
,seesul to his Royal Highness, or to our country."
It. That opinion I stated at that time, and that opinion I
save since seen no reason to change. That opinion of a
Zded Governinent has been found correct, and that evil, the
1, consequences of which have been increasing every day,
iiii-ntrcv been amongst those causes that have influenced his
raiintre Ministers in the course they have now deter-
, thtZ":_to adopt. But if a divided Government is an evil,
I men: "eelll a greater evil, and that is a divided Parlia-
may h. k Cheers.)—Among the other circumstances which
ther are influenced them•to this decision, I ask whether
foeb%is not that threatening- aspect of affairs abroad which
hail:" any man to say how long the peace at present ex-.
of
ang in Europe may continue—(hear),—and in'that state
ata2lee9 with regard to our foreign relations, what is the
tai of Ireland, and what are the feelings we must enter-
s o_°n account of it? is it nothing to see seven millions
4efenur fellow-subjects not affected with a zeal for the
q 4 of the empire, but actuated by a bitter resent-
nti'l for the refusal of their unalienable rights? Good
by ~ What a picture of that country has been drawn
.._.4
Picture
Marquis sitting now on a bench near me,
peril:. cture in which he represents, that nearly all the
virw4° of property and influence are driven, with a
s4L,(O their own safety, to live out of the country ; a fact
,tion'sliews, in the clearest possible manner, that what is
!anco'
uf the greatest evils of Ireland—absenteeism—must be
Tate
one amongst the many evils caused by the exist-
tugtgTete of the laws. With these circumstances surround-
ti ~ nu on every side, was there, I ask, no reason, when
~ Iti4:emer remedies had failed, that those Ministers who had
lebrittLt° tried every means to uphold the present legal es-
tnio tunent, should look round to see if they were net ac-
I not IlhcrunPelled to change their course of conduct? Were
of th.e aggravation—the constantly increasing aggravation
large Public feeling there, and the state of the country at
foulki in 'her* other relations—were not these, I ask,
suer sufficient to justify any statesmen to alter their for-
. statete°,„nrse; sufficient to justify any statesmen, I say—for
• opipie7en are not to be bound and fixed to any theory or
form t;','_,hu? r9ust look to things as they are when about to
(Chars it line of conduct on any great national question?
• oputtree An individual may stand on a high. point of
hough and consistency—he may reject any course which,
hake
(1 necessary in many respects, would, if adopted,
50 tin(.4vn a favourite principle—he may justify himself
o l", -,lng, but a statesman must act on no such narrow
11) the"t is not for him to snake public expediency submit
eiL,l•on bePreservation of his consistency in following an opi-
Aseenit.in_ sY have formerly held—ho neat submit to the
tymic lad" of the times, and act with a view only to the
ep advantage (Hear.)—It is not, I repeat, for
lit PYlng the station of his Majesty's Ministers,
oat Y/' "every Can but
thing may go to wreck and rein, so
maintain my system, and continue the
tet!‘ta Catholics."aperson, ion of the Such instead of
• ing as a Minister in the Councils
of his Sove-
b, would not deserve the name of a statesman, but
Atgt to be sent to one of those places where Kings, and
l',!,(11s, and Ministers, whose ideas were quite the-same,
:‘4t also advantageously inhabst. I say then, my Lords,
' here was justification enough for his Majesty's Minis-
to4 change their opinions, and to adopt a new line of
1 tlet.
It is almost unnecessary fur me to offer any
it°lo,. or to show any reasons which I think sufficient
:t.fy their change of measures ; but it is due to them
' Ine ostate, that what they now propose to do is, I
ktte: the result of their sincere conviction, arising from
101 l not think an enlightened and sound view of the ques-
:: W under consideration. This conviction has im-
- 441:34 them the duty and necessity of proposing the
ki th? Kith is shortly to be submitted to Parliament ;
es i Itf.!t du
ty has been fulfilled by all, but especially by ed
Sr ;441. hsr of the Cabinet, on whom much obloquy has
e littinstly thrown, in a very proper and manly manner.
erierePerformed it, although, in doing so, he has made a
: , • ' theer,flitnelreeithtaedr tnionuin taeirmesor oneany w
way,
te balancingm an ever
interest
tme
reeds et
thebe-
ong 41 Yet these interests has he sacrificed under the
it
• - -
4 d ling of his public duty. I say, therefore, that
iontie fr m
la. n ° - a person in my situation, having no con-
,,Ny toyno way or the other, to bear my humble testi-
' 'ed ed conduct.which, I really believe to have pro-
'' 7„entryrnta a sincere view to the real interests of the
at fis With those views I entirely concur, and I ask
r-'l,. alt,iler course could they have pursued ? We had but
..,1, eioo-uative—coercion or conciliation—(hear, hear)—
t the You have tried—it has failed.—(Cheers.)—You
1
,t;'i i r ticoyalrerutforiempandsotpbtumconnticninlima.t„ion.Tbaltn
hastlie bwboitridiesrtonf Lordbeen
' a`
For
surest cure for sedition is the removal of the
--- ''. ,lk 4t.` !or he that turneth the humours back, and
' NI%) the wound bleed inwards, endaneereth malign
I°4 • "1.41 you have drawn the humour•back into the
' You h
owu
io. wound bleed
crush
ai ngsrvoaartd so,u
dand o
nyeoru_
:hi:,
pcue: it impossibleyouhave tofai
leeffde,c to an
dc ulrveh.
iYous h
elfitatvoe dyoonue,
iispofQo4l:l:theavveainmaednedtelaive
at
• ,e,
athe words of Bacon, to look, as he says, to the
et rand cure the evil by its removal ?—(Cheers.)-
sion-1.44 is exclusion—the remedy is admission ; ei-
tai,,,lor°ol the blessing of the Constitutionis the wound,
'd theZt..° those blessings will be the remedy. Do that,
1 "hat I heard quoted on another occasion bya

person tyhoge yoke I shall hear no more, will be true on
this— " Defluit af!itatils humor:

Concidani noel, fee; nubee,
Et urinal- (Tied sic veluere) ponto
Ueda recutube:."
The measure that will eIK-et this is conciliation, and con-
ciliation hear. ani persuaded, from
the manner in which thiequestion has been announced, and
from the confidence I have in the Noble Duke himself; that
when he determined to take this course, and to propose
this measure, he considered well how be should best carry
it into effect. Ido not believe the Noble Duke to be a man
of half measures. I am persuaded, that seeing the necessity
of settling this question, he will make that settlement corn-
plete.—(Hear, hear.)—He will not desttoy the evil by
half only—he will not grant concession in a grudging mari-
ner, soers to keep up the galling feelings of irritation which
have so long existed. He will effect a cure of the evil—he
will give lasting peace and happiness to the country by its
removal, and religious animosity will be destroyed in the
happy consummation of a religious peace. When I say this
do not let it be thought that fobject to securities. Securi-
ties will be proper enough. They are required, not so
much to add to our real safety, as to tranquillize the ap-
prehensions of the people here; and to securities for such
a purpose I have no objection. To securities, indeed I
myself attach but little or no importance. The great see
curity is in the measure itself. Grant that, and lam per-
snarled that all other securities will be perfectly unneces-
sary; and this observation leads me to the subject of what
was stated by a Noble Earl on the cross-bench, as to the
nature of the Roman Catholic religion. I am, my Lords,
attached to -the Protestant Church. I am a member of
the Church of England, and as a member of that church,
I desire to protect its interests, and I believe its
interests -will be best secured and promoted by the
success of this measure. When the Noble Earl
says that the Roman Catholic religion is inse-
parably connected with slavery, I ask him from what page
of history he draws such' a statement ? He has appealed
to the Protestant Revolution—to that Protestant Revolu-
tion from which, he says, no change ought to be made at
the present day. Does he remember the words of the
Bill of Rights ? He has spoken of that Bill, but he seems
to forget that the provisions in the Bill of Rights, tkough
settled and confirmed at the Revolution, are there stated to
be the ancient and indubitable liberties of the people of
England.—(Hear, hear.) At the time of the Revolution
they were assumed to be ancient and indubitable. By
whom, I ask, were these indubitable rights and liberties
secured ? By our Roman Catholic ancestors. By our
Roman Catholic ancestors was Magna Cherie passed—by
them were the Commons introduced into Parliament—by
them were enacted those securities against the extending
influence of the Church of Rome in the Statutes of Pro-
visos and Premunire.- From Roman Catholics, I say,
therefore, we have nothing to fear. Unite us with
them in the bonds of affectionate loyalty, and if any ques-
tion shall then arise in Parliament as to the political power
claimed by the Sovereign Pontiff, I have no doubt they
will show in the present day the same spirit and determi-
nation in resisting every attempt to enlarge the power of
the Church, which our Catholic ancestors have before
manifested. On all these grounds, I shall come here with
considerable pleasure to assist in passing this measure.
I do regret that it is to be accompanied, or rather
preceded by one of another kind. However, lam
satisfied in one respect, at least, namely—in the manner
in which the great measure itself is to originate. It will
come, as I always thought it ought to come, and as I be-
lieve it can only come with real advantage and success—
namely, from the recommendation of the Throne. It has
been recommended in the gracious Speech of his Majesty,
who, in the beneficence of his heart; has directed our at-
tention to a measure that will alone be capable of satisfy-
ing the wislfes of the nation. Let us, my Lords, do our
utmost to second him in this excellent endeavour, and the
greatest advantages must follow. From the moment in
which he assumed the reins of Government, success has
attended his Councils. After all the storms with which
Europe has been convulsed, his exertions enabled him to
give peace to Europe—a peace most honourable to the
glory of our arms ; and now, after the storms of religious
difference have agitated this empire, lie is about to gain
still higher honour, by giving peace and prosperity to this
country, by a measure that will unite in holy charity and
brotherly love all classes of his subjects (Cheers). These,
my Lords, are the feelings with which I look on the
speech, and with which I shall hail the measure that is
there recommended to us. It I may be permitted, I will
add one word as to the Noble Earl who has spoken to=
night, and I trust 1 shall not be mistaken in doing
so. When I feel strongly on any subject I use strong
expressions ; but I hope I have not deviated from
that moderation which has been recommended so wisely '
and properly in the Speech from the Throne ; which,
above all things, is so necessary in this discussion;
and which, I wish, were a little attended to by Noble
Lords who argue on the other side. I hope that in
what I have already said I have not used any ex-
pressions that may give offence to the Noble Lord, but I
should like to ask him what he proposes by his opposition?
He has made an appeal to the Noble Duke, and has desired
to know whether the Noble Duke thinks he can retain his
situation after this measure shall have passed. I should
like to know whether the Noble Earl thinks it possible, if
the present Administration should be dissolved upon this
measure, that another could he found to go on with the
Government while things remain in their present state? I
do not ask him to give up his present opinion, but I wish
him, in the retirement of his closet, to consider whether,
by allowing his zeal to urge him into extremes, he is not
more likely to endanger the best interests of the country,
than if he consented to almost any measure which, on this
subject, his Majesty's Ministers may think fit to bring
before us. Ido hope that this measure will experience no
delay further than what is absolutely necessary and una-
voidable. Como-as quickly as it may, nobody can say that
this House or the people have been taken by surprise on
this subject, which has indeed been decies repetita. It
has been discussed and re-discussed, until men's minds
have been most fully enlightened and informed upon it;
and I must therefore say, that I de hope that on no pre-
tence of taking the sense of the country upon it may the
measure be again postponed. I ought to apologize, my
Lords, for the time which Ihave consumed, but I was
anxious to take the earliest opportunity afforded me of
bearing my unequivocal testimony to the conduct of his
Majesty's Ministers, and to assure them publicly that, on
this measure, they may rely on me to give them all the
support which, as an humble individual, it is in my power
to afford.—(Cheers.)
Lord TEYNHAM was understood to say that it was not
in his power to support the measure.
The Earl of FALMOUTH, seeing the state of the
House (nearly all the Peers had departed at the conclusion
of Earl Grey's speech), would not enter into any length-
ened discussion, but he had a few observatrous to makes,in
consequence of the reference made to him by the Noble Earl
who had recently addressed them, relative to what had
fallen from him yesterday as to the general feeling of the
counties of Devonshire and Cornwall on this question. In
reference to the last general election, the Noble Earl had
drawn the inference that those counties were favourable to
the proposed concessions, from the circumstance that a
large body, or, as the Noble Earl had seid, a majority of the
freeholders had supported that candidate for the county
who was, what might be called, a reformer. lle could as-
sure the Noble Earl that he spoke a matter of fact, when
he said that the sense of the county was not taken on that
occasion; and for the best reason in the word, namely,
that there was no contest. He could tell the Noble Earl
that by far the greater number of the people of that county
were against what was termed Catholic Emancipation ;
and, dare Noble Earl would ask the question of the pre-
sent Member of that county, he would find that this
statement was fully borne out by the facts The Noble
Earl had said that he agreed with the assertions
of attachment to the Constitution of this country ; but
Ice seemed to forget that that petition expressed the
attachment of the petitioners to the Protestant Con-
stitution of the country—to that Protestant Constitution,
as it was settled at the Revolution ; and, throughout the
petition, the word " Protestant" qualified the expression
Constitution; and the petitioners prayed that the Protestant
Constitution might be preserved inviolable. The Noble
Earl had then gone through the history of the last twenty
years, and had stated what were the numbers of the suc-
cessive divisions in the House of Commons on the Catholic
Question. Now, from that very statement an inference the
very opposite of what the Noble Earl wished to draw might
be deduced. It appeared, from the Noble *Earl's state-
ment, that the majority, in 1806, in favour of the Catholics
was 106 ; and that in 1828- they had likewise a majority,
But what was that majority? It had, indeed, the units,
but it had neither the tens nor the hundreds : they had
disappeared, and the majority was only six—(Hear.)—He
1 would say no more, but should leave the country to judge
whether that was a proof that the Catholic Question had
gained or lost supporters within that time.

The Earl of iVINCHELSEA said; he was accused of
having carried his opinions on this subject into such ex-
tremes as to have disturbed the private and social inter-
course of the county in which he resided. He denied that
accusation, and he appealed to all those who knew him
whether he had ever carried his political feelings to that
extent. Not only be had not suffered the subject to inter-
fere with his private friendships, but he had 'not even al-
lowed it to interfere with respect to those who were de-
pendent on him. Ile was solicitous to state, that he had

not used the least possible influence to bring any man to
that meeting in which the petition he presented bad
origi-
nated. The Noble Earl opposite (Earl Darnley) had
spoken of the state of that meeting, and had denied the
amount of the majority. Now he (the Earl of Winchel-
sea) had been present at that meeting as well as the
Noble Earl ; they were in_ their respective waggons,—
(A laugh) ;—but lie had quitted his waggon and gone
round the field, so that he saw every thing, while the
Noble Earl, by remaining in his waggon, only saw a part
of what was going on. It bad been said that some men
had been sent there to keep down the sense of the county.
He could declare for himself that he had taken no part in
the transaction, and knew nothing whatever of it, and,
indeed, did not believe there was the slightest foundation
for the statement. He saw the result; and if the Noble
Marquis, who was the Lord Lieutenant of the county,
was now present, he would appeal to that Noble Mar-
quis for confirmation of what he had stated respect-
ing it. There was reason to believe that the other
side had used means to overawe the Meeting, to such
an extent, indeed, that there were hills scattered about
the great avenues to the meeting, advising those who va-
lued their lives not to go thither, for that a large body of
watermen had been brought from the river to put down all
opposition to their leader.—(A laugh.)—So that if any
charge was brought about an attempt to overawe the meet-
ing, he thought the charge might be better made out against
the other party than against his. He declared he had used
no attempt to influence any one. He honestly avowed that
some of his own tenants bad gone to the meeting, and
voted against the side he espoused ; and God forbid they
should not do so ; for certainly he should never attempt to
controul any man. But if two Noble Lords who lived
near him were now present, he would put to them a few
questions which he thought would show there were others
who did not pursue the same line of conduct. It was said
that the feeling of the country was in favour of these con-
cessions; when he thought so he would agree to the pro-
posed change ; but so long as he thought the reverse, he
could not consistently with his own opinions, nor would
he on any account give up his opposition. It was unne-
cessary for him to trespass more on their time on that part
of the subject ; but there were one or two observations of
the Noble Earl who had recently spoken which he wished
to answer. The question now under cousideration same
before Parliament in a shape different from what it had
ever before done. The Bill was not to be produced
by those who had always advocated this measure ; but
by others--by those, in short, who had always been
its most strenuous opponents. If the measure was
to be carried, he trusted it might not be while the
feeling of the country was, as he believed it was, against it.
It was said that it remained to be proved whether he or
the Noble Lord was right as to the feeling of the country.
A few days or weeks would determine that fact. God
forbid he should agitate the country ; God forbid he
should appeal to any one against the feelings and opinions
of those whose habits, education, and talents, entitled them
to lead those feelings and opinions. But he could not agree
that this question ought to be carried, because, when the
people of England found that this question was taken frem
them, perhaps the consequences might be found to be worse
than the refusal of these concessions. He was surprised to
find the Noble Earl say that the Great Charter was derived
from our Catholic ancestors. He denied that virtually they
were Roman Catholics, for they had been excommuni-
cated—so far for what was said as to our being indebted to
Catholics for our Charter. He was sorry that the Noble
Earl opposite should have said that any attempts were made
to overawe the Meeting of Kent ; and he was quite sure
that the Noble Earl would not, upon reflection, charge
either him (the Earl of Winchelsea), or the respectable
body of the Gentlemen of the county, with overawing the
Meeting. He would only state, that that petition was
signed by the. freeholders of the county, and out of 6,000
signatures, only SO of the names had been shuck out as not
being freeholders.
Earl GREY observed, that the Noble Earl had some-
what failed in shewing that England was not indebted for
her liberties to their Catholic ancestors. He attempted to
prove that, by saying that they were excommunicated.
Now that fact proved two things against the Noble Earl—
first, that they were Catholics, for otherwise they would
not have been excommunicated ; and next, that even the
terrors of excommunication, and the Papal authority in
that dark age, could not prevent them from doing what
they thought to be their duty to their Sovereign and their
country.

Earl DARNLEY had never meant to deny that the ma-
jority was with the Anti-Catholics. The tale of the water-
men was a hoax ; and as to the imputation with respect to
the Noble Earl, he (Earl Darnley) believed him to be of
too honourable and manly a character to do any thing of
the sort. Though that meeting had introduced ill blood
among many of the people of the county, he trusted it
would make no difference between him and his Noble
Friend. They only differed as all men might, fairly and
conscientiously.

Lord BEXLEY did not mean, in the present state of
the House (most of the Lords had by this time left it), to
detain their Lordships by' an address of any length. He
rose merely for the purpose of making one or two observa-
tions. Whatever might be his own opinions of the mea-
sure which it was in contemplation to submit to the Legi-
slature, he did not think that the fault which in some re-
spects had been found with his Noble Friend at the head
of the Administration was well founded. He alluded par-
ticularly to the insinuations which had been thrown out
of unfairness on the part of the Noble Duke, in not hay-
ing at an earlier period made known his intention to pro-
pose the measure relative to the Roman Catholics which
had been lately announced from the Throne. He was sa-
tisfied that the Noble Duke could not at a much earlier
period have communicated the views which he entertained
on that subject ; for he agreed with the Noble Duke that
to have done so would have been a decided breach of his
duty, before he had obtained the assent of the Illustrious
Personage to whom he alluded. But, at the same time,
the observations was perfectly just and well-founded that
the sentiments of the nation could not be changed iu a few
days.—(Hear, hear. )—Petitions from three counties had
already been got. up against the proposed measure, and he
was convinced that snore would soon come pouring in upon
the Legislature; and he hoped that an opportunity would
be allowed, in considering a question of such vital import-
ance, for both sides to be fairly heard in the discussion, and
that those who opposed the concession would be permitted to
have their due weight with Parliament as to the conclusion
to which it ought to come. A Noble Earl (Grey) had
adverted to the sentiments which had been displayed on
different occasions in the votes of the House of Commons,
on the subject of concession to the Catholics; and the
Noble Earl had been able, after all, to state no more than
that the House of Commons had been actuated by alter-
nate feelings on the subject, and had sometimes come to
the one conclusion, sometimes to the other. Under these
circumstances, he did not think that his Noble Friend
(Lord Falmouth) was wrong when he suggested, that
when a question of such magnitude was to be considered,
discussed, and decided upon, a new Parliament ought to
be called for that special purpose. As to the ancient times
of Catholicism to which the Noble Earl (Grey) had called
their Lordships' attention, they were distinguished for
many barbarous institutions, and by a remarkable hatred
of the Roman Catholics towards the Reformed Religion ;
and in that respect the spirit of fhe Roman Catholic reli-
gion had, down to this day, remained unchanged. And if
the Roman Catholics were now to he admitted into the
Legislature, that measure would be followed, unless great
care was taken to prevent it, by a successien of Roman
Catholic cues oachments which would subvert the liberties
of the country, or occasion a tremendous re-action.

KENT PETITION IN FAVOUR OF CONCILIA-
TION.

The Earl of DARNLEY said, that he Lad a petition to
present in favour of Catholic emancipation, which came
from a large portion of the freeholders of Kent. It might
not be so numerously signed as that which had just been
presented by his Noble Friend from the same county, but
it was still very numerously and respectably signed.--
Among the individuals whose signatures were attached to
it, were 13 Members of their Lordships' House, and many
other opulent and respectable freeholders.
The Duke of RICHMOND—How many signatures are
there to it ?

The Earl of DARNLEY—Seventeen hundred.
The petition was then laid on the table.
• IRISH PEERAGE.

Lord SHAFTESBURY moved that the Attorney-
General and the Solicitor-General of Ireland should be
called upon to attend before the Committee of Privileges,
while engaged in the consideration of the petition of Lord
Castlemaine against the return of Lord Dunally as one of
the Representative Peers of Ireland.—Ordered.
His Lordship then moved, that the House at its rising do
adjourn till Monday, which was ordered.
Adjourned at Half-past Eight o'clock till Monday.