The Sun.
London, England, 1842-06-21 00:00:00

and James, had deducted sixpence out of every
sovereign, being twice the amount of the depreciation.
In many cases, threepence had been deducted from all
sovereigns, whether light or heavy. He would relate
one instance, to show the impudence of those frauds.
A friend of his had sent to the Bank for money to
pay his workmen ; he took care to have every
sovereign weighed to ascertain that it was full
weight; he paid hik workmen with this money,
and yet, out of every one of these sovereigns
the shopkeepers deducted sixpence.—(Hear, hear.)
When he was mentioning the conduct of the Bank,
he might allude to a subject which had been men-
tioned in the papers, namely, that while the
Bank had been refusing light sovereigns, it
had also been issuing them. He had heard that from
so many authorities, that he could not doubt it. A
person went to the Bank, tendered eight sovereigns,
and a deduction was made in the payment for
them. There was a case of a man who, having at one
department of the Bank tendered sovereigns which had
been given to him at another department, they were
found to be light, and the full value refused to be given
for them. While the Bank was refusing light sovereigns,
it was issuing light sovereigns. He had thought it right
to bring the subject before the House, because it appear-
ed to him that by the measure which the Government
had thought proper to adopt, a very great loss had been
in some way or other inflicted on the public. Might he
ask at what period was it that this loss had been inflicted
on the public—what period had been chosen by the Go-
vernment for inflicting on the country the mischief of a
discredited currency ? It was at a period when the most
unexampled distress existed among all classes ; when
trade and commerce were more paralysed, and the la-
bourer less employed, than at any other period he was
aware of. He should have thought it would have been
the course of a wise Government, knowing that there
was unavoidable pressure from other sources, to have
been exceedingly cautious of making, by their own
proceedings, any further additions to the pub-
lic burdens. He thought that such a Government
would have waited for a while, or if it
would not have waited, that it would have adopted every
precaution, in order to let the blow fall as lightly as
possible on the public. He knew not to what cause to
attribute the carelessness of the measure. lie knew not,
with the exception of the Right Hon. Baronet, upon
whom they were accustomed to throw all the responsi-
bility of the acts of the Government—he knew not to
whom to attribute this measure. To be sure there was
the Right lion. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer—a gentleman who had filled, most creditably to
himself, the office of Vice-President of the Board of
Trade. He supposed that the double duties of his
office had prevented him paying attention to the subject.
He had had to expound the tariff, and he had had to
come down to the House and contend for every article
of the tariff, becaiise he had' not only to prove to that
(the Opposition) side of the House, that there would be
great reduction to the consumer, but then to turn round
to prove to Members on the other side that the reduc-
tion in the duties would cause no reduction in price.
Perhaps, under all these circumstances the Right Hon.
Gentleman's energies had been so much tried that he
could not attend to the Mint. He (Mr. Buller) could
have wished it otherwise, for he would venture to say
that there had been more harm done by this proceed-
ing with respect to the coinage in one fortnight than the
tariff would make up in the course of a whole year. His
(Mr. Buller's) object was, not merely to vindicate the
Government, but he had another object in view, because
he would certainly be more satisfied if the Government
would come forward and explain to the country the rea-
son. which they had not hitherto given, for this sudden
and unexplained act. He would tell those gentlemen,
and the House generally, that this was not a time
to take that high course of recklessness, and put
forth to the public edicts inflicting injury on a great
portion of the community without vouchsafing an expla-
nation of the grounds for so doing. The working classes
were not in a humour to be trifled with upon this matter.
They had intelligence, and they had suspicion. They
would not acquiesce in these edicts without inquiry lie
must say that there never was a period in which a full
explanation on the part of a Government would have a
greater effect upon the good sense and good feeling of
the great mass of the people than now.—(Hear.) Let
the Government show them that they had not trifled with
their interests ; let them show them that their acts were
with a view to the welfare of the community. The
people, whatever their sufferings might be, would be
content if they were convinced that the measure was a
just one. If the Right Hon. Gentleman could give that
explanation which he (Mr. Buller) hoped he would; if lie
could show that the conduct of the Government had been
founded on sound principles if' he could show that they
had acted as liberally as former Governments ; if he
could show that they had consulted the best interests of
the public in the same way as former Governments had;
if lie could show that there was an occasion for making
the change, no one would be more rejoiced than himself.
He thought the Government should be glad of the op-
portunity he had given them of offering an explanation
on the subject, and at all events, by bringing the matter
under the consideration of the House, it would be shown
that parties, however poor and helpless, who had suffered
from the course taken by the Government., had advocates
in that House who felt a sympathy in their sufferings,
and who would take care that they should not be injured
by the misconduct of their rulers.—(Hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that he was sure the House would forgive him for offer-
ing a few observations in reply to the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman, although he was aware that in doing so he
should have to trespass on the indulgence of the. House.
The lion. and Learned Gentleman had endeavoured to
connect the important subject he had brought tinder the
consideration of the House with another subject which
was to have been the immediate topic of discussion that
evening ; and he (tke Chancellor of the Exchequer)
could not but think that the precedent laid down by the
Hon. Gentleman of introducing a discussion upon a
question foreign to that immediately before the House,
was calculated to lead to much inconvenience. However,
in replying to the Hon. Gentleman, he would pursue
that matter no further, but would strictly confine himself
to the topic he had introduced. The Hon. Gentleman
had complained of the course taken by the Government
for withdrawing from circulation that portion of our
gold coin which was below the current value. Before
they proceeded to the consideration of that subject, the
House, he thought, ought to bear in mind what was the
state of the law upon the matter. The law laid it down
as a principle that the gold coin of these realms, when
it was under a certain weight, was no longer a legal
tender for any payment. No person was compelled to
take it, and if any party, took it he could not compel
others to receive it from him in return. It followed,
therefore, clearly as he thought, that when a consider-
able portion of the gold coin of the country was deficient
in weight, that was a subject which would necessarily
attract the attention of the Government. It would be
extremely prejudicial to any class that a great propor-
tion of the current coin should be so deteriorated that it
could not be offered as a legal tender in any payments.
He was willing to admit, however, that the subject was
attended with inconvenience, whatever was the step
which the Government might take. He believed it was
impossible to devise any means of rectifying the depre-
ciated coin, which would not press more or less upon in-
dividuals ; and he believed it would press more severely
upon the lower orders of society, inasmuch as they were
more liable to be deceived by parties who wished to
profit by them. But he would beg the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman to' bear in mind what the evils of a light
coinage were, even 'to them, and to consider the case, not
merely in its reference to particular individuals, but in
reference to the consequences which must ensue from a
continued depreciation of the coinage, if some measure
had not been taken to arrest its progress. He
was quite ready to admit that it would have been
far more advantageous to every interest of so-
ciety, if the public had been more frequently warned
from time to time of what was the express state of the
law on this subject, and of what was the weight at which
the gold coin of the country was current. He took some
blame to himself that when he last held the officehe then
filled, he did not communicate to the public by procla-
mation, the provisions of the law in this respect. But
the House should bear in mind that it was only at par-
ticular times measures of this kind could be taken. But
to defer the period till the evil became intolerable was
not the course for a Government anxious to preserve the
people from loss, to pursue. The evil was exactly in pro-
portion to the quantity ( f light coin in circulation, as the
more there was of deficient weight the easier it was to
reduce the remainder to the same standard, and thus
making a profit from those to whom such coins should
be passed. Under these circumstances it was necessary
for Government, if the period was convenient, to take the
earliest measures for withdrawing the light coin from
circulation. The Hon. Gentleman complained that no
step was taken to lead the public to suppose that the
gold coin was diminished below what was required by
law, and that this fact was not generally known to Parlia-
ment or the country. But every person in a public situa-
tion must have known that the gold coin was diminished
in weight, and it appeared that such was the fact before
the Committee that sat last year on banks of issue. It ap-
peared that much inconvenience was caused to the country
banks by the refusal of the Bank of England to take
coin under the weight, it not being a legal tender. The
Bank made communications to Government upon this
growing evil. And when he entered into office, repeated
communications were made to him on the subject, not
merely by the Bank of England, but by other banking
establishments of the greatest respectability. The Hon.
Gentleman thought it uncommon that no person was
aware of those sovereigns being light, but the fact was,
that complaints were made that the Bank of England
did not take them. The law, as far as the Bank of
England was concerned, was strictly adhered to, for it
neither issued nor received a sovereign below its full
Weight. This was also the ease in certain branches- of
the revenue, so that, from the practice of the great public
departments, and many private ones, a sufficient indica-
tion was held out to the public that coin below the legal
weight would not be accepted as a legal tender of pay-
ment. It became the more necessary, because he must
beg the House to observe that measures of thii kind
could not be taken at every moment when it was expe-
dient, or when it was wished to take them. The Hon.
and Learned Gentlemen bad said, why not defer the
nieasure ? The answer was, that if such a course had
been pursued, the evil would have been aggravated in a
tenfold degree. What be would ask, was the present
state of affairs in the country ? There had been a con-
tinual influx of bullion and gold into the country
for some time, and was not that, he would ask,
a period when the light gold coinage should be with.
drawn ? That the evil was great was acknowlegded by,
every man who knew anything of monetary concerns.
He felt that if he rad omitted such a moment to re-
medy the evil, it probably would never occur again.
That was the reason why the Government had adopted
the course it had done. The Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man had said that the measure he (the Chancellor of j
the Exclequer) had 'adopted was at variance with pre-
cslelit. Now the Hon. and Leaned vGesitiOman tYuet i

allow him to say that he thought that in the selection of
his precedents he had been peculiarly infelicitous. He
would not go back to precedents in the time of Henry
bui lie would say a few words on the more recent
ones. The Hon. Gentleman had referred to the silver re-
coinage, which had taken place in 1816. The principles
on which the gold and silver coin of this country were
regulated were totally distinct and separate. The silver
coin was a mere token, which the Government issued at
a considerable advantage; it was a token issued by the
Government upon which they made a large profit, whilst
the gold coin was always a legal tender. The two spe-
cies of coinage, therefore, stood upon a totally differ-
ent footing. The course pursued in 1775 was
in fact, if not in terms, precisely that which
had been pursued on the present occasion. Notice was
given by proclamation, that coins below a certain
weight would be taken at the Mint price, received at
the Mint and delivered to the public, and the public
derived then, as they do now, the advantage of having the
intrinsic gc,ld delivered taken at the rate of 31. 17s. lOid.
The effect of that proclamatien was to divide the loss
between the holder and the public. That was the prin-
ciple acted upon in 1773, and that was the principle
now acted upon. If the Hon. Gentleman had consider d
what he stated to be the expense at that time including
the re-coinage, namely, 151,0001., he would have seen
that the public in that character did riot bear the loss,
but that the largest proportion must have been borne by
the individuals who were the holders of the coin. The
coin as issued from the Mint weighed five pennyweights
three grains and a fraction. As issued to the public it
was five pennyweights two grains and a fraction. There
was this difference between the present case and that of
the years 1775 and 1776. At that time the coin was
uni-
versally depreciated, and it was in order to avoid re-
clueing the present coinage to the same state
that the present favourable opportunity had been
taken for withdrawing that portion of the gold
coinage which was depreciated from the circula-
tion. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman had not com-
plained of the mode the Government had pursued, I
had complained of the proclamation as giving an abrupt
and hasty notice, as having taken the public by sur-
prise. No one wished to surprise the public less than
he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) did—(A laugh)
—but lie would be glad to know how such a notice
could have been given without exciting surprise. If he
had told the Hon. and Learned Gentleman in confidence.
that a serious depreciation had taken place in the gold
coinage, he doubted very much whether within a week
the fact would not have been proclaimed at Charing
Cross. The best way of dealing with the people of this
country was to act in an open and straightforward
manner.—(Cheers.) It the present state of things had
been permitted to go on it would eventually have fallen
with ten-fold force upon those very classes who were
now suffering from the pressure. He was sorry for the
pressure which they were enduring, but it was the in-
evitable consequence of the dishonesty of certain per-
sons. The Hon. and Learned:Gentleman, it seemed,
said that he could propose a plan which would have
effected the desired object in a manner better than the
plan proposed by the Government. The Hon. and
.Learned Gentleman proposed to send down to every
town throughout the country a large sum of gold.
Bo that on a certain day people might have their light
gold exchanged for full weight. Now, that would only
be an opening for fraud to an enormous extent. It
would impose on the public an enormous charge, which
in its reflex would operate on the very classes which the
Hon. Member wanted to protect, by subjecting them to a
tax to snake good the deficiency.
Mr. C. BULLER explained that he had not said all
the light coins should be exchanged, but only those that
were light to a certain degree of deficiency.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER believed.
even down to a certain deficiency, there were gentlemen
in the City, who knew how to reduce a sovereign to the
exact weight required.—(Hear, hear.) Not only would
the sovereign now in use be sent in exchange for those
of full weight, but also the new ones issued would be
speedily returned to the Bank as light. He regretted
as he had Said before, that there were persons dishonest
enough to take advantage of the state of the currency
and to impose upon the ignorance of the working classes.
He understood, that not Only were deductions made from
the value of the light sovereigns below their reai deficiency,
but that there were people who refused to take even
those of legal weight, without deducting sixpence each.
Now, that was illegal ; and he was glad to have that
opportunity of making it known, that those who refused
to take the legal coin of the realm, were liable to im-
prisonment.—(Hear, hear.) Arrangements had been
made with the banks throughout the country, and with
the receivers in the different towns, to enable the people
.to exchange their coins. He believed the inconvenience
and alarm had greatly subsided ; that the people knew
better the value of their gold, and would not be any
longer imposed upon by dishonest tradesmen. If the light
coin were not withdrawn, the evil would go on increas-
ing, and w ould come shortly with greater severity upon
the working classes, whilst the derangement of the cur-
rency would become such as to produce incalculable mis-
chief to the commercial and trading classes. lie knew
that they should get rid of the load which at present
pressed so heavily on the monetary interest of the coun-
try, and it was with that feeling that the measure was
adopted.

Sir. B. HAWES said the Hon. Member for Liskeard
(Mr. C. Buller) was perfectly justified in the course
he had adopted ; for if he had not done so, the whole of
the objects, for which the subject had been discussed,
would have passed away. The Right Hon. Gentleman
had not undervalued the importance of the subject, nor
bad he stated that Government had no right to interfere,
but he had deprecated the adoption, on the part of the
Government, of this proceeding, without any previous
notice being given to the public. The Right Hon. Gen-
tleman had said that the proceedings quoted by the
Hon. Gentleman were not altogether in point ; that the
greater number of those proceedings referred to the
silver coin. Granted. Take the case of 1774. What
had been the course then taken by the Government ?
Had it been in any way similar to the course now
adopted ? It was said that the difference between that
case and the present was, that then the .gold was uni-
versally affected, whereas now only a portion of it was
affected. He could see no distinction between those
cases, for the effect of the present proclamation
was to discredit the whole coinage of the country.
In the former case that had been referred to, a series of
resolutions was passed by the House, a Bill was founded
upon them; and the whole. matter was brought under its
consideration, the decision being that the loss should be
borne by the public. He could not separate the public
from the Government, and he could see no ground in
justice by which the loss ought to be charged to the last
holder. The Right Hon. Gentleman appeared to have
made no inquiry, and he had taken no steps to facilitate
the exchange of depreciated coin. He proceeded by a
jerk to disturb the coin of the realm, to the great incon-
venience of all classes, and of the poor in particular All
former precedents were in favour of the principle of
making the public bear the loss of the depreciation ;
and, it appeared to him in addition, that the Govern-
ment should hivie taken some precautions to facilitate
the exchange of light coin, and, if possible, to prevent
the depreciation of gold for the future. He ventured to
say that this was a subject of much importance, and his
Hon. Friend was perfectly justified in bringing it under
the consideration of the House. He thought the course
taken by the Government deserved the most serious
consideration of the House. Ho really thought that
there ought to be a Committee of the House to inquire
into the subject.
Mr. F. I'. BARING, who spoke so low as to be
scarcely audible, said he concurred with what had
fallen from the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite when
he said that the gold coin of the country required re-
vision. The Right Hon. Gentleman said he considered
that the present moment was peculiarly fitted for taking
Some steps on the subject. He (Mr. Baring) believed
that the turn of the exchanges, and the value of gold in;
this country, placed it in the power of the Government
to do so, and he thought they were justified in doing so
before any serious public injury was caused. He con-
sidered that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would not
have been just to himself if he had delayed longer in
taking that course. Having said thus much, he should
further state that he considered his Right Hon. Friend
was perfectly justified in bringing a subject of such im-
portance before the House. He thought it was an
advantage to the public to have the question discussed in
that House, in order that the public might not he mis-
led. He agreed with the Hon. Gentleman that the
loss was divided between the holders of coin and the
public revenue. With r-spect to the secresy to which
his Hon. Friend had referred, he did not mean to say
that arrangements cou±d not have been made fur afford-
ing greater convenience to the publi.!, but he thought it
was possible that secresy itself would have led to incon-
venient results.—(l=lear.)

Mr. BERNAL said he thought there was no occasion
for entering into any elaborate view of the subject, the
question was a practical one, and related solely to the
inconvenience which the public had been compelled to
submit to on this occasion. His Right Hon. Friend the
Chancellor of the Exchequer had stated the law and the
facts of the case with his usual accuracy ; but in a
country like this there was something besides the strict
letter of the law to be considered—there was the con-
venience of the public, and in order to secure this,
they must sometimes depart from the strict letter of the
law. His Right Hon. Friend had stated that it had for some
time been known that the Bank and some departments of
the revenue would not receive the light gold ; but he
did not know that there was any private bank which would
have dared to refuse a tender of sovereigns prior to the
recent proclamation, whether they were below th• stand-
ard or not. His Right Hon. Friend must know that the
transactions of the metropolis were not carried on solely
by means of the great Bank, but by means of private
banks. The proclamation came as a surprise upon the
great bankers of the metropolis.—(" Hear, hear," from Sir
Robert Peel.) He was looking to the interest of those
who could not bear the loss, and not to that of the great
capitalists ; and what he complained of was, that no
means were taken for preventing inconvenience to the
public at large. Did nut his Right Hon. Friend know
that even within the last three days the pressure upon
certain classes in the metropolis had been almost intole-
rable ?—(Hear, hear.) The little petty channels of
business had been dammed up and choked ; trade had
been paralysed. It had been found- impossible to pass
gold coin, whether of the proper or of inferior weight ;
dishonest tradesmen had chosen to avail themselves of
that opportunity to impose upon their fellow-subjects,
who were little able to bear such imposition.—(Hear.)
The first announcement From the Bank, after the procla-
mation was
,issued, was that 50/ would be taken in.
There was, however, a large class of petty
shopkeepers who had in their possession nothing
like that number—(Hear)—and there were, besides
many working men, who received 205., 305., or 355. for
their labour, who were all paid in gold, and who could
not, get their coin exchanged. Even the order which
had since been issued, lessening the amount to 201, did
not take in all who were Suffering inconvenience, and in
whose case -theniatter assumed the character of a grave
sad striorii injustice. Lio 'nod of bis 1 ht HOD.
. .