The Sun.
London, England, 1829-03-19 00:00:00

VENING, MARCH 19, 1829.

lies had seats in Parliament, no doubt they would confede-
rate in order to attain their object : sometimes they may
act on one side and sometimes on another, as their inclina-
tion may lead them ; but where any question occurred re-
lating to their Church they would be found united.
They would act, too, let it be remembered, with greater
force than their mere numerical strength ; and Govern-
ment knew how much small knots, not of hundreds,
but even of tens, were able to accomplish, under ex-
perienced and able leaders. A reference, with some ap-
pearance of novelty, bad been made to the period of the
Wvolittion in the distinction taken between the inten-
tions and the actions of King William and his Ministers.

It had been said, that all he and they did was to fix that
the person wearing the Crown of these realms should be a
Protestant. This might be true ; but Roman Catholics
were already excluded from Civil and Corporate offices,
and King William and his advisers could be no more the
authors of those measures than of Magna Charta. After
contending that the Penal Laws of that day were neces-
sary for the existing state of society, and the circumstances
under which the Protestant Establishment was placed, the
Hon. Member proceeded to observe, that although tolera-
tion had been lauded, and most justly, by all the great men
jof all, countries, yet still there were some peculiar doctrines
which even the most tolerant and the most liberal were
disposed to reject. Mr. Locke, the great advocate of to-
leration, and one of the most amiable and liberal and be-
nevolent men who ever existed, was not disposed to extend
toleration to the Catholics, and even declared he thought
their doctrines to be such as excluded them from the bene-
fits of toleration. He mentioned these things, to shew the
falsity of the construction put upon the settlement of the
Revolution, and the erroneous opinions formed upon the
conduct of King William and his advisers by those Hon.
Gentlemen who wished to alter the nature of the Constitu-
tion. If, however, the opinions of King William were not
likely to be received without exception, he would trouble the
House to listen to the declarations of another person upon
tbe subject of the admission of Catholics into Parliament. He
would call upon those who rejected the opinions of King
William with reference to a Popish Parliament, to listen
to the declaration of no less a person than King James 11.
The Hon. Member then read an extract from a letter,
dated the 22d of September, and taken from some lately
published correspondence upon the subject of the events
preceding the abdication of King James, " in which his
Majesty declared his determination to preserve the rights
of the Protestant Church inviolate, against all the inva-
sions of Catholics." This declaration was also pub-
fished, as the writer observed, in the Gazette, for the purpose
of removing the fears which were entertained by the people,
upon the subject of the admission of Catholics to Parlia-
ment. This declaration too was made during the last
days of that troubled reign, and just at the time when that
Prince began to perceive that if he did not abandon the
course lie had pursued he was likely to forfeit his throne. In
another extract from the same papers, he found it stated that
his Majesty, still further to allay the discontent and quiet
the minds of the Protestants, had sent for the Bishops, and
that after the audience they went away well satisfied.
This, be thought, proved pretty plainly the opinions that
Monarch himself entertained for the consequences to be
drawn from the admission of the Catholics to political
power. How far the Bishops were satisfied with that an-
swer may be drawn from the articles which they set forth
in a few days afterwards. What answer the Bishops of
the Established Church of the present day may be called
upon to give to assurances of a similar kind that the
rights of that Church are to be preserved at the moment
when they are upon the point of being sacrificd, a very
short time would, perhaps, give them an opportunity of
showing. If they were subjected to the same alternative
as their illustrious predecessors, he trusted they would fol-
low their memorable example, and neither surrender their
rights to power nor consent to sacrifice them to expediency.
—( Hear, "hear. )

Mr. WILMOT HORTON said that he considered he
had Nothing to do with the first part of the Honourable
Member's speech who had just sat down, namely as to
whether this measure ought to be carried into effect in
past times or not, because the question simply was
whether it should be carried into effect now or not.

I shall, therefore, (continued the Honourable Member)
advert to that part of the Speech of my Hon. Friend, in
which he tells us the Catholics and Protestants are to come
into collision if the Catholics are admitted into power.
He seems to be of opinion that the moment a Catholic
enters the House, his object will not be to enjoy those pri-
vileges which the tardy justice of Parliament has conferred
upon him, but immediately to combine in attacking the
Established Church of this country. Will the Hon.
Gentleman take the opinion of a Roman Catholic upon
the subject? If he will it is in my power to let him
have it.—(Loud cries of hear, bear.)—The Honourable
Gent. is aware that a proposition made by me went to the
extent of depriving Cotholics from legislating upon matters
that related to the Church of England ; consequently what
injury could arise to it by the admission of Roman Catho-
lica, I cannot conceive. I can conceive many objec-
tions to my proposition, but certainly none to be raised
by the advocates of the Church against it. An answer
to my proposition I received from a Noble Relative of
mine in Ireland, a Member of the Catholic Association ;
and that answer stated that the proposed disqualification of
voting in concerns affecting the Established Church would
be no sacrifice, but a relief from a delicate duty ; and were
it possible for that Noble individual to take a seat in Par-
liament unfettered by oaths, he should act upon such a feel-
ing whenever a question of this nature came under dis-
cussion. Mr. Blount, secretary to the Catholic Associa-
tion, had also declared that there was no necessity for
this provision. If the inequality of the laws were re-
moved the security of the Church would be ensured,
though some Protestants should be of a different opinion.
(Hear.)—We are dealing with two classes of persons.
There are some that consider religious exclusion as the
most advantageous principle of the Legislature ; there are
persons who look to exclusion as if it were to secure their
very existence, and who cannot breathe the air of heaven,
unless it is tainted with the poison of political degradation.
If men placed any weight upon the necessity of an oath,
they were answered, the Catholic is not to be believed upon
his oath. If that be the case, then they would be justified
in arguing that all the Penal Laws ought to be revived,
rather than that restrictions should be removed. This,
however, was not the feeling of the liberal minded portion
of the Protestants; and, indeed, he thought the peculiar
advantage possessed by the Bill now introduced under the
auspices of the Right Hon. Gentleman was, that it made
the question of concession to the Catholics, not an ecclesi-
astical but a political question.—( Hear, hear. )—This, he
contended, was the peculiar advantage of the present
Bille•-•-(ilear.)—It was said the Catholics were anxi-
ous to to seize the tithes of the Church. He would
-take leave to tell the Hen. Member for Dorset (Mr. Bankes)
that the Roman Catholics bad no Buell desire. They knew
that upon the principle of reciprocity, they must abandon
their independence for such an acquisition ; and he must
say, that looking at all these considerations, it was very
improbable they should ever make the attempt. But did
the Hon. Gent. suppose that even if the Tithes of the Church
were to be abolished, the people would be exempt from the
payment of that burthen ? The Church property was the
property of the State ; and when a man made a•purehase
of property subject to the paynlent of tithes; lie' purchased it
with the understanding that It Was diminished in value accord-
irm to the amount of these tithes. As long as the illusion
could be kept up, that the destruction of the Protestant Esta-
blishment would exempt the people from the payment of
tithes, it was natural that there should be an anxiety to pro•
duce such a result; but he repeated, that those tithes were
the property of the State ; and that, even supposing they
could be converted to the use of the Catholic.l,l that object
was not to be effected witliont a iepe:li of the Act of
Union. l~oec the Non. Member think that in the next 50
years the Union will be repeated, and the Church property
be transferred to the Catholics? The Hon. Member
has said that the Catholics of the present day have
the same objects, motives, and intentions as they
bad in the time of the revolution, and that the
same danger was to be apprehended 4'1:(:)m
Is there, I ask, any lior=;-,-4,ise Menit)er this House
ol,feeSpt3tta:49i
*tuber asserts that he hal the people or .t..bg-
-14n4 hut if so) their approbation
its
luatfrFe—cntd (eod on f
oaths,tl e
ed, that if the Catholics ignorance of the real merits of the nuns-
Hear) and disapprobation.)—Recurring to the
lei c
s 1
ve
re Honourablenot t o
I)
e Gentlemanb ee d. contend.
ttehnedi
r
oaths, that House ought at °Jaye' ttt ix-enact all the
penal larva, and manfully declare the nature of the opinions
.hey en!r.ta,,jtled• The best refutation of such calumnies
v(43 to be found in the declaration put forth by the Ca-

PRICE 7D.

tholic Bishops in 1826. Being charged with holding opi.
nions ani professing tenets inconsistent with their duties as
British subjects, they took the opptiaunity of stating the
nature of the doctrine which they do profess, and they ex-
pressed themselves upon the sultject of the obligation due to
an oath.

" Catholics are charged with holding that they are not
bound by any oath, and that the Pope can dispense then
from all the oaths they may have taken. We cannot suffi-
ciently express our astonishment at such a charge. We hold
that the obligation of an oath is most sacred; for by an oath
man calls the Almighty Searcher of Hearts to witness the
sincerity of his conviction of the truth of what he asserts,
and his fidelity in performing the engagements he makes.
Hence, whosoever swears falsely, or violates the lawful en-
gagement he has confirmed by an oath, not only offends
against truth, or justice, but against religion. He is
guilty of the enormous crime of perjury. No Power in
any Pope or Council, or in any individual or bat, of men,
invested with authority in the Catholic Church, can make
it lawfnl for a Catholic to confirm any falsehood by an
oath ; or dispense with any oath by which a Catholic has
confirmed his duty of allegiance to his Sovereigiartsr-any
obligation of duty or justice to a third person. He who
takes an oath is bound to observe it, in the obvious mean-
ing of the words, or in the known meaning of the person to
whom it is sworn."

This was the declaration of the heads of the Catholic
Church; and he would now take leave to ask, what was
it except an oath which kept the Catholics from the enjoy-
ment of all the privileges of the Protestants, and brought
them as supplicants to that 'douse ?—(Hear, hear, hear.)
Well, indeed, might the Catholics say, in the beautiful lan-
guage of the Noble Poet—
" Were my bosom as false as thou deem'st it to be,'
I need not have wander'd from far Galilee;
It was but abjuring my creed to efface

The curse which, then say'st, is the crime of my race."
The attention of the sacred obligation of an oath was
the crime of the Catholic; and yet, because he acknow-
ledged its force, he was to be taunted with the imputation
of being utterly unworthy of confidence.—(Hear, hear.)
They had been told, on the evening before, by an Hon.
Member, that this Bill would not prove a remedy for the
evils of Ireland. He did not mean to say that the mere
passing of this Bill would have the effect of putting an end
to the miseries of Ireland; but he contended that it would
go far towards the commencement of reformation. They
had heard a good deal about securities in the discussions
upon this Bill. He was one of those who believed that
none of those Hon. Members who declaimed so much about
securities were sincere in their demand for them ; but still
he had been of opinion that something in the shape of
security was calculated to allay the apprehension of the
timid, although he did not think that any measure of that
kind could add to the security which they already pos-
sessed in the honour of the Catholics, and in their common
interest for the preservation of the Constitution of the
country. As long as he saw that the timid were disposed
to place their trust in securities, he was disposed to sup-
port them on the principle of conciliation, and in order to
secure their concurrence; but the great value which the
measure of the Right Hon. Gentleman possessed, in his
eyes, was that it appeared to be wholly free from the tram-
mels of such securities.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.)—lle
repeated, its merit was in being free from securities, and he
said so because he knew there was no prospect of any
Minister being able to devise such securities as would prove
saeisfactory to those who demanded them.—Hear, hear,
bear.)—ln his opinion, the Right Honourable Gentleman
displayed wisdom and sound policy in having kept his
Bill free from all such incumbrances.—(Mear, hear.)—
Turning to those arguments which were drawn from the
state of Ireland, and observing that it was impossible
that country could remain as it was, and that they
must either advance or retrograde, the Right Hon.
Gentleman contended that no argument had yet been offered
in support of the proposition that Government could carry
on the affairs of Ireland on a system opposed to that of an
arrangement of this question. If the Protestants were
satisfied to remain under the protection of five-sixths of the
infantry of the Empire, rather than under the protection
of taws administered with impartiality to all classes of his
Majesty's subjects, then the question must rest where it is ;
but if they wished to put a termination to such an un-
natural state of circumstances, they must consent to the
arrangement now proposed.
Sir HENRY PARNELL denied the assertion of the
Hon. Member for Dorsetshire (Mr. Bankes), that the
Catholics would, in the event of the passing of this Bill,
be enabled to send fifty Members to the House of Com-
mons. He believed that if all the counties in which Ca-
tholic voters predominated were to succeed in sending Ca-
tholics as their Members, they would not amount to that
number. He was'aware that it had been argued by some
Hon. Members that the concession of the Catholic Claims
was not necessarily connected with admission to seats in
Parliament; and, therefore, that it might be avoided. But
he would refer the Hon. Gentleman to the benefit that
would be derived to Ireland, to prove the truth of the pro-
position he maintained. Why was it that since 1793 so
little advantage had resulted to the Catholic population of
Ireland from the concessions then made to them, though
they were rendered eligible to such a large range of offices?
It was owing, he would say, to the want of connection
with their admissibility to Parliament, which rendered
those other concessions nearly useless to them. It was
true that those concessions had never been received with
that degree of gratitude which some had thought the occa-
sion demanded ; but the reason was, because they were of
no real advantage to the Catholics. Neither did lie agree
with regard to the danger apprehended from the possession
of seats in Parliament by the Catholics. The Hon. Gent.
had quoted several specimens, to show how this danger
would work. Now, he would request the House to at-
tend to an authority as to this point, which he conceived
would be of some weight with the House, and indeed
with the Hon. Gentleman himself, namely, the authority
of Mr. Burke. That great man stated it as his opinion,
that the capacity of sitting and voting in Parliament was
one not worthy of dispute on the part of those who oppO'sed
its concession." And he added afterwards, "'lf I were
to form a judgment on this subject from experiences tiral
also from theory, I should doubt greatly whethee the ea,
pacity for, and the possession of seat; ig ltlarliament, do
really convey much political porev, j kat for twenty-nine
years in Parliament, and 1 &think the power of a Member
is rather in opposing than in supporting the measures of
Government; and I do think that a clerk in office ilYe-
nuently possesses far more influence thadninestentha of the
Members of the House of Cornmous. the exclusion of
the Catholics is only a mark of jealousy and suspicion, and
will not provide any soft of security." This was the de-
liberate opinion of the highest possible authority to which
any matter of a constitntional nature could be referred, and
would be, he bad no doubt, of great weight with that
House and the country, in respect to the arguments of
those who were trying to impress on the minda the
people that the admission of Catholics to Pat:liarnent.iyonlel
expose the Constitution to dangers whicb:wo'rild cert.;nly
lead to its destruction. Ha wished' to make some obser-
vations on tyhat bad been repeatedly said by Hon. Gentle-
usCn the. other side of the question, as to the future pro-
bableCorriduct of the Boman Catholic Clergy of Ireland.
Every Hormur,,ble Gentleman opposed to this Bill ven-
tured to declare a speculative opinion, that as soot as it
was passed the power of the Catholic Clergy wogld ue
directed to the aggrandizement of the Catholic Religion,
and the raising of it to alacondancy, on 'the ruins of the
Protestant Church, it harralsO. been stated that the
influenq. which the Roffman Catholic Clergy exer.
cised over. the. People, through the Association, was still
exercised as effectnally as heretofore, to forward purposes
inconsistent with the peace and tranquillity of the CO"
Ca-
tholic Ch.tweli Irek.qa
did think, he owned, that these opinions, copingirOL
such quarters as they did, were but of 11,ttle Value indeed;, because the House must be aware that it Would'reon'r.
great deal of local kecese,a,l-e, amt., lone ac a• 1-",
d to 4lt44\ with
the people of lAretan en le any person to, rm an opinion
;ilia especially to come to an
of
...'''‘v4:7ll:tr.fiac:ee as to line motives that govern that l,a‘kx
reeire..?ting. the pisrsons 't,lic,:tictical offices of the
accurate ITIg:-(-04
the pains general cotnodtui;tk:adtbeeewno
jos ;ectt',h yx.;
He womb! take on himself to say that if any I-loan.
uld lie
man
and as a representative .?.part of the I;reland, he
would also tr-;.ie on himself to say thrq he4rould place every
confidence in the CritholiC elegy as to their future con-
the
al aaWdal
htehe
ppr
ore;
eerr vga taivoenrnomf
etnl ha
otfr a
tux i
pl I
ei trsyo(4
duct; especially as it related to the due observance of the
clerher
charge, in a way that. would give thi greatest possible
sa-
tisfaction, to every body. Vntioubtedly this measure of
W.ai4l eapports'Oltheir power, and diminish their in-
Emancipation would take from the Catholic clergy one of
the