The Sun.
London, England, 1845-02-26 00:00:00

TRH SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY MORNING, FEBRUARY 26, 1845.

i they would substitute the words, which the Hon. Member
for Plymouth had taken from him, " prejudicially affected"
for' lying Lear."
Mr. ENTWISLE said that he thought the constitution
of appeals to the Board of Trade was good for the railways
themselves. By that means they were saved from falling
14,nrd
' into the hands of an attorney, who hurried them
shorad OUGHA sot r, BAIL
gave notice that' 00 Friday next, he up a bill. For these reasons he thought this course
m cond reading of the 8.11 in Error Bill.ofappeal 11 be better fir the companies themselves.
wou r .
The
.N. DIVORCE. The Hon. Member for Cockermouth thought that the present
iyte_
_,O out and LEA kNED Lour) also g .ve notice of his . wording of the clause limited the facility a appeal, and he
.., r tribunal
Nortaunntns!‘o.n Thursday week, to introduce a Bill upon the im- • ( Mr. Entwis/e) entirely agreed with him in the observation.
attache q°Ject of the transfer of the jpri.d•ction in divorces to Lord G. SOMERSET would make no opposition to the
km of
-tad pi uz vv. recommendation' of the Hon. Member for Cockermouth.
ruhi,
par Fr...LIAM presented several petitions from va- Mr. HAWES obiected to the jurisdiction given by the
" Wales, Westmoreland, and York. in favour of present clause to tile Board of Trade. He thought they
Ltrrd Br% ,
tr' the oill;t not to extoid the lowers of an irresponsible tri-
day next '-'1 oil gave notice of his intention, on Thurs- booal. The Board ~ • rods we 3 a secret tribunal. and he
put a que,tion to her I.Sl,jes,y's Goverment quit••• ohiected to ils ,•.71S; itlltil,ll.
dativeC , A the proceedings which had taken place with respect Lord G. SOMERSET said that if the Hon. Member
ur'',l and Calabria,
would mention any other court which would better answer
tord r, BANKRUPTCY. the purpose than that of the Board of Trade, he should be
earned CA BANKRUPTCY. wished to know when his Noble and very happy to give his best consideration to it—
klt'n'd Friend en his left (Lord Brougham) intended to pre- but at present he was giving, by this clause,
Alf u the
petition with respect to the London Commissioner® an opportunity of appeal to those who felt them-
akr 2
Ltd tPtcY •
selves aggrieved by the encroachments of any railway
petitio_ ROUGFIAM said that he could have presented the line, which they did not before possess. Although the clause.
fhe,u,r! a week ago, but that he had last •it off, in order that gave powers to the Board of Trade to decide appeals of this
tklect might be fully considered. If the returns sw isfied kind, he did not at all agree with the Hon. Member, that it
had ;'t" since he had given the notice the Commissioners would be a setting aside of the courts of law.
petitionended more to the business, he would not present the Mr. FOX MAULE said that, though there could not be
the coL !-Fe, however, could net think it right that five of any men better or snore honourable than these who formed
leasingulotrssioners should be out of town during the summer, the Board of Trade, yet, as they were an irresponsible
ft. heir I !
_,ne. Commissioner to transact the whole business. tribunal, he
notbjected to granting them the extended powers
44 0,00--ccushil,s then adjourned till Thursday morning, at mentioned his clause.

Mr. HAYTER would rather confide in their decisions than
in those of any two justices of the peace.
Mr. AGLIONBY was surprised that the Hon. Member for
Lambeth, and the Right Hon. Gentleman who had spoken
after him, should have wandered so far from the real ques-
tion before the House. His suggestion was to substitute the
words " prejudicially affected," for the words " lying near,"
and in that alteration lie was supported by the Hon. Gentle-
man near him (Mr. Gill), and by the Hon. Member for Lan-
cashire.
Mr. HAWES explained.
Mr. ENTWISLE said that Hon. Gentlemen overlooked
the fact that the proposed tribunal was not to redress griev-
ances, but to prevent them.—(Hear.)
Mr. STANSFIELD thought that the clause would give toe
great powers to the Board of Trade, and that it would not be
efficient in preventing people's property from being injured.
Mr. WALLACE wished to know in what way his country-
men were to obtain redress under this clause? Was a man
to travel from John o'Groat's house to London at a
penny per mile? If he did so, he would surely lose his tem-
per on the way, finding himself carried at twelve miles an
hour, and all the other trains passing him-,-(A laugh—or
was the appeal to be to the Board of Trade in Edinburgh ?
Lord GRANVILLE SOMERSET said that the Hon. Mem-
ber did not give his countrymen sufficient credit for their
ability to write, whereas the appeals under this clans*
were to be forwarded in writing. The object of the clause
was to afford protection to those who could not obtain it
under the existing law.
Sir T. ACLAND supported the clan*
Mr. HAWES said that the 47th (+tense raised the whole
question, although the Noble Lord opposite said that his dis-
cussion of that clause was irrelevant. He asked the Noble
Lord to point out to him any precedent for a tribunal such as
the one proposed, sitting in secresy. Would agents or wit-
nesses be admittad ?—(Hear.)
Lord G. SOMERSET defended the clause, as providing a
much better mode of redress than any other which could be
devised. All the relief would be given in favour of small
proprietors against powerful companies.
Mr. HENLEY suggested the postponement of this clause
until the 47th came under discussion. The power proposed
to be given might be the means of throwing a great deal of
odium on the
.Executive, as the reasons for their decisions
could not be known.
Mr. Aglionby's amendment was then agreed to.
On the question that the clause, as amended, be agreed to,
Mr. HAWES proposed to add the following words :
" Provided always that parties interested may ap-
pear, by themselves or their agents, before the Board
of Trade." The Honourable Member said his object
was to raise the question seriously whether this should
be an open or a secret tribunal. If the Noble Lord
were disposed to maintain this tribunal with all its powers,
be could not help telling him that, in his opinion, it was a
tribunal the existence of which he would eventually be the
first to regret.
Lord G. SOMERSET saids:the question now proposed to
be raised was one of very great importance. The
proposition of the Hon. Gentleman was one which, at first
sight, had plausibility at least on its side, because it was
always desirable that matters of this kind, so largely
affecting the public interest, should be conducted in the most
open manner. There were, however, peculiar consi-
derations attached to the various matters brought
before the Board of Trade, which might make such a
condition inconvenient. It was impossible for him to pledze
either himself or his colleagues to support any particular pro-
posal, but 1:e would suggest to the Hon. Gentleman to pre-
pare a clause for discussion in a full House.
After a few words from Mr. F. MAULE,
Mr. HAWES said that on clause 47 he would raise the
question, whether or not this clause should be omitted, and
he would withdraw his present proposal.
Mr. FOX MAULE thought it would be better to post-
pone the discussion of the measure till the Right Hon. Baro-
net at the bead of her Majesty's Government could be pre-
sent at an afternoon sitting, even if some important business
should be deferred to make way for it.
The clause was then put and agreed to.
The House resumed, and the Chairman reported progress
After some remarks from Mr. HAWES against proceeding
with the discussion in the absence of the influential Mem-
bers of the Government,
Lord G. SOMERSET said, he would not proceed with
clause 47, which was the important one, without due
consideration, and he should be prepared to state to the House
the course he should adopt at the next morning sitting,
which he proposed should be on Thursday next.
The CHAIRMAN then obtained leave to sit again on Thurs-
day next, at Twelve, and the House adjourned till Five.

Awe
Thee° 41G USE OF COIII3IOIVS, Feb. 25.
18'r4ittee on private Bills sat to-day at Twelve o'clock.
Lora G. c, COMPANIES CLAUSES BILL.
„ '''OMERSET moved the order of the day for re-
teipireport on this Bill.
tiae AWES wished to know if the amendments proposed
+ord ill
o,adittEeenn.snEv se:id
they had. His reason
.for now
furher consideration of the Bill, was in order
',eve tii.Su bet reprinted in its amended form. He would
'ltem to"‘ it he re -committed on Thursday, pro forma.—
_(III.W.AI.
rd cr. O COMPANIES CONSOLIDATION BILL.
ERSET moved the further consideration of
"4„thoet4,,,one to four, inclusive, were read and agreed to
‘-;l:44""servation.
The tote was omitted.
teat4,,t; clause having been read,
pot et•ew"LIONBY said the provision for obtaining the con-
note 4 thatners in this clause was extremely vague. It pro-
- stet the consent should be in writing. The clause did
~."4144 ghati,e; it should be so, but the introduction of the
mit virr• •
re (4 iting would render the mode of proceeding
L, Lord Giu,te•
"grodo„,.'‘ANVILLE SOMERSET had no objection to the
ttseleszCgon of the words proposed, though to him they seemed
14'd It Won the consent were obtained, that was sufficient,
matter little in what way it was expressed.
:4 he „.-L'IONBY was a friend to consistency in everything,
~,teist.rbed to assimilate the clauses of this Bill, so that
eetiLte or misconception should arise. In another clause
make -r-nt Was required to be in writing, and it was well to
Xo(othe clauses assimilate.
fiche
said, before the clause was put, he
!kt th t° Point out the great disregard which had been shown
en -tirii_gbts of owners of land in this Bill. The Bill pro-
It'ot?irkter.ai deviation might be made of 100 yards from the
ettplete," e• Now a deviation of such an extent might
4etw'l3:_lestroy the value of a piece of land, the subdivi-
-Iseet.."-len the owner never contemplated when he gave his
ic""the'me running through his property. There was
ok,, al Board of Trade, but that was, in his opinion,
Lorrertse•
,t 4 Whi,h(iItANITILLE SOMERSET said that the provision
tairi.the Hon. and Gallant Member complained was
t'l th 1,„ r. e next clause.
tTortii:ll the
said that, as the consent was to be proved
Justieea in petty sessions, it was immaterial whether
at lit we • .
t. AGL.u.s in writing or not.
ieir he t,'"BY said that when he first came into that
at`th.,t,t on., mm2_, Committees, and had foolishly be-
tB tie ,pit, Railway companies were actuated.solely by
bre glad it; but he had since then become wiser. He
saitherefore, that the Gallant Officer opposite had
t„.!stat, rights of the public befitre the Committee. The
z 4414 4,l.Uompanies were large Lied pwerful bodies, and
P otect themselves ; but the landowners, though
'414 POWere
qv: kea,,.-4.• in their own way, had not the
Isheti';', and were often sufferers. But there was one
taliat h„ nobody protected. He meant the public. This
th„ ost shamefully negligent of the rights of the people.
4tere"Shtionstruction of railways the people possessed their
arkie„lhe use of the public ways. There was no right
th Pith ". or better estabiished. But no sooner was a
IttZ,t the °Jetted than it unhesitatingly interfered with every
t 41. Public possessed ; too often crossing and destroying;
te,Y, the public markets; and, where it did not de-
"'n `'./ oft • •
ee • en interfered, to a serious xtent of
none of those who had charge of these
the neon-
°aid h'", "ad any power of preventing the interruption.
iiproatc told by the advocates of railways that they were
Nh„tliißive I,,e,st Public utility, and that minor considerations
„Ng, -I,eoel-.1 to them. Why should passengers be put to
14%.'114 h„,'n'tence? Let all ways be put on the same foot-
/OM es' 'toned that foot-passengers would be equally
ao reLatllttyprs were.
thought that his Hon. Friend's remarks had
ilthe GitA,",fte clause under discussion.
L4lr.L''Ortflko4 VILLE SOMERSET thought the alteration
tile-IliOrq, °,/ the clause, proposed by the Hon. Member
-beret„' would rather weaken the protection afforded
41. yti -•8 of land than strengthen it, and he could rot
th old • ANlseu
t to any change in it.
84, asie,N-BY proposed that the word " highway"
illy-ViNBlituted for carriage road.
`t, Se 4aclude,,SLE was of opinion that highways were suffi-
)t.°lr, Peeea...',' in the words carriage way, and he therefore
•,'IGI,/,-1,,`37 for the alteration.
b.-stlhf;a the "i-ABY said that the words " street or carriage-
e'ause were not sufficient to include footpaths
11'eq 8313.
41.1, to whereas, the word " highways," which he
h:solv'ne jo!uostitute, would include them. (He read from
hetiil,tiee the definition of the word highways, to
147
calr
sitt wee "as by itself more comprehensive than the words
I_tar,,nol,:rx
Olt- 'at k-L.OUSE concurred in every word that had
tI, tele. vt--ser Member for Cockermouth, and hoped he
cad $ ,-(AW Df., In his amendment.
h.yrOrri thought that there could be no objection
I.llseZ the highways" being introduced into the clause.
,111 „Vit it was quite unnecessary to amend any
kt:te'Thieh'alwav Bill, if the 47th clause were allowed to
Ott co Dovre,,BN'e -the re' ilway department of the Board of
i!ileitici,..to alter and amend any railwayßill, "where the
too with the Act might be impossible or incon-
t7tiet tat nth thought this clause (47) would give a great
ttst"reehrwer. and that if it were passed the House
itiothl stio,e itself to amend any railway Bill.
ttisrj 41IORP thought that private rights could
Seconsi rotecte
ilet • %lEIT P • d'•
that
toil, It %tend ,SET said it would be remembered.
110hoteve,„„ ed to introduce any new principles into the
'be Possible question were to be raised the Bill
litoh,ll4ssed that session. At the same time, he had
littNtez,4sBant fair discussion.-
suPported the amendment.
1? the tivords from Mr. Aglionby, Mr. Stansfield, and
AZt air, use divided, when there appeared—
It_ kiln i'..glionby's amendment
ra.; .
for the amendment
~t,iciab.l.loN:l4t.,,Was carried.
kNtlOsjt, '4. suggested a verbal amendment in the
tih„ was agreed to without opposition.
ittp to° the ORY objected to the words of the clause
4to tZt rAv'tolication of any intended deviation from the
~,:kerterit.Plee:PBf,,,er in the locality where the deviation
',Lip the' In i,a tle thought the advertisement ought to
kzit,4t \,b6P,ers
1104 .-",,ord /G.
of general circulation. Ile would never
I I), main] Somerset) of anything like smug-
111,,etett''ear io
„_Y this looked like it. Let the advertise-
:l,l 41)4),r, Lue Lit-won papers; they all saw them; but
0014 ()Nl,',,ere only read in the immediate vicinity.
41th Oeh 4SET said the proposition of the lion.
.tic,tlan pre_eer would rather give a facility for escaping
froh,Yent it. the localities most affected by the
4lttttottlei‘‘ 4s4.btehplinis the London papers
.were. not read.
te, °',gtlt. there was no occasion for advertis-
',Cls4 "utb
'44Q 'ties f 'ASET said the object of the clause was to
t to , rote a
141 ti,,,k‘.:.,0ei0„1137 unfair or unjust annoyance, by raising
titthtstit o oeyond a certain level.
N),44(1° Pr,,te !.,',le only objection he had to the clause
il/4t4ti.P4 „,,Z0 iet4-`l(tui whatever was necesary to be given
.414,,qb.,45,:, by this House, for there were no clas-
it I,s_,LL more by railroads than landowners.
011,110 Dre".4of rtted upon the clause as one intended for
..,_'11.411 owners, and to enable the Board of
4:ttatq
4,4ft.,,,p, deviations from the line, although the
k:,,144 ktiq 1,17 such might be consenting to it. He
',Foiethettreste by the Gallant Colonel opposite, that the
th7r4elqhey h4"l great power in this House ; but he
letiiPret Ititllloß;n7 power whatever here.—(Hear.)
t 40x ,
, of
soelleved the clause to be intended for
I,ttihiti..4l to holders of land, but there should be
1:;4tle, t hnitlttn, they could appeal in certain cases.
ese4V'etti, u said he should either lay down very
ne, he r.g,tsve Power of appeal to the Board of
‘tert ''''neeived, was the most suitable tribunal
was
e wk„ well known that landowners threw
je,tqq,-,-.(ciiteof railroads, in order to get a high price
,h_lviNy .of " No, no.")
Ott i (Ith, t",,a'd that he agreed with the Hon. Mem-
oea„ thi, eat there Nl-
vgitte au -clause. as a great vagueness in the
tcwea diet the term lying near a deviation
lyir Yards auce, a quarter of a mile, half a mile,
4ti w
tit th ould propose to strike out the
tea vsh.-Elt'sL' at would obviate all twee
uncertainty.
te 4tit n T said thatthethoebweocrtdws
this itrit'er to Meet
tiNhich he had in-
othtS•lb, ration would render the passage still
of '4144°11P •
ePreee said that he could not sit there and
t,,,Nse ntatioes of the Hon. Member for Ply-
tlo4o,44.%.raPhropr.ietPar,irietors ofland. The lion. Member had
tkft tiettles • nad thrown obstacles in the way of
Di 41 •ult, in Order to
14,t.t, Otto ~ e ena,„ increase the amount of their
i'l4Borteii.their 137) landowners were fully entitled to
OhneLPertY, but he would deny that they
nehh„,,Teans as the Hon. Member had inti-
V,*,(l.llgel',,ted retort the charge on railway compa-
ct4`plte'r'Zle'relthe pvurit)!ste.rnents for the purpose of catching
11111011.1.14 lem'se 15 L, stating that the holders of their
_er_c,ent. for their money. The small
vilv4.4e 4. 4.,i4 -4 were
0,0 that sr,‘ er guilty of such conduct.
t4htt 001, of the r 73 Member of that House who fell
nii`Brturiate"°u• and Gallant Officer might count
mOt 44tt „ 3toen , .---(Laughte
kin Ith r.) That Han. Member
v'jkl i.eth as „ ietort_ His reference had been to the
kme.Tt it riot not to the small owners. The
er the place was lying near,
Oh, 11l o.T4llBlrecte
klii-er•aß -8111 d .1.4 bYt the deviation from the ori-
kiri-tar," ""erelore
A'teees that -11 d subst, Pro Pose, to strike out the
d,h the pre. ILltte the words " prejudicially
trSit feriOXllVid en
pile tom a property and not its
IYtb
t 4sheyo jroperty
011,,
415. h.,
840 eit to cpensation.
xt1":11t1):(to'r at be quite agreed with the Hon.
might be very greatly
At the 'tahr "i"mtitie alipipiootiiisieted range of. deviation
l'lV°44htlt oer"ntr"t
tt kit -ttt b the 0Y: ft, railway coll. commanding a view
t),_4s both fro Nina' line banfiment was raised Vat tilos% 2‘sin pros. , and immediately the house
r,,t,*11 114 41. A oln. aye and air. The house which
Rah) Peel would now be hardly worth
o'tage
of that if there were
;t1 111,1e,for it _ proof ought to lie on the
1„;,,L Prouri ,was an utter impossibility
tire N • 11, • el"- who h, Lon„_, resided one hundred
Nt 114 ett,e Gt t? core all that di::-tanco
11° (;0 , tho'bi.;ti; wiZAtc;,se.i, and keep-
NWleleaLee. ReuelaY of the railway Bill
fat e
thic poi„ hoped, however, they
vocier ;, at the present moment,
"; alld when 4 wa§ concluded

The House resumed at Five o'clock, when there was a con-
siderable attendance of the Members, and, from the conversation,
there appeared considerable excitement.
Several petitions were presented by Lord Pollington, Sir
Howard Douglas, Mr. Ewart, and other Members, for rail-
way and other private Bills, but front the loud conversation of
the Members the names could not be correctly ascertained in
the gallery..
Sir JOHN YARDE BULLER brought up the reports of
several railway Bills, and stated that the standing orders of
'hese before the Committee had been complied with.
CALEDONIAN RAILWAY BILL.

This Bill was read a second time.
Mr. MACKINNON presented a petition from 1,800 inha•
bitants of the borough of Lambeth against the extension of the
South-Western Railway. A petition was also presented from
480 inhabitants of the borough of Lambeth for a free passage
over Waterloo-bridge.
Mr. BROTHER TON presented a petition from Manchester
against the sale of spirits on the Sunday.
Mr. S. CRAWFORD presented a petition from the rate-
payers of Rochdale, complaining of the introduction of the New
Poor-law Act by the Poor-law Commissioners into that district.
The petitioners prayed that they might be heard by counsel
at the bar in support of the allegations contained in the petition.
The Hon. Gentleman gave notice of his intention to move to-
morrow that the petition be printed with the Votes.
Lord M AHON presented petitions against the Medical
Reform Bill.

Mr. WAKLEY presented a petition against the Aledical
Reform Bill.

NOTICES OF MOTION.
Mr. COLLET? gave notice that he would ask the Right
Hon. Baronet, the Frst Lord of the Treasury, whether he
intended to appoint another Bishop of Bath and Wells
during the life of the present incumbent? and in the event
of his receiving an answer in the negative, whether, at the
death of the present bishop, he intended to propose another
Bishop of Bath and Wells, or to unite that diocese with the
diocese of Salisbury.
Mr. S. CRAWFORD gave notice that on Tuesday, March
11, he would call the attention of the House to the petition
which he had just presented from the ratepayers of Rochdale,
against the New Poor-law system.
Mr. WALLACE postponed, from the 6th to the 11th, his
motion with r. Bard to railways.
Colonel WOOD gave notice that, in the Committee on the
Poor-law Settlement Bill, he should move that any poor person
who had been resident in a parish for a year without receiving
parochial relief, should not be liable to be removed.

England, Scotland, and Ireland alike, for they all paid alike,
and bore a great cost—no less than 25,0001. per
annum —for the p, yment of their judges. He held in
his hand the Act that was passed for increasing the salaries of
those judges, in order to diminish the arrears of business, and
to facilitate justice. He would read another extract to the
Buse as to the state of the Scottish law, and that return
showed that in the course of one session there were only eight
eases adjudicated on. He (Mr. Wallace) had many facts in
his possession, all bearing upon the question, but he would
confine himself to the particular matter of his motion. He
had obtained, last year, a return, showing the number of eases
adjudicated on in England, as also in Wales, in Ireland, and in
Scotland. The result of that return he would lay before Hon.
Members, and he requested their particular attention to it.
'she return was for the session of 1t44, and the proportion of
eases in the different countries was as followed :—To the
thirteen millions of population in England there were 154
judges, thus showing one judge to every 100,000 inhabitants;
In-land, with a population of eight millions, had 124 judges ;
and Scotland, with above three millions, had 94 judges, thus
showing one judge to every 27,000 persons. The people of
Scotland complained most grievously of the two courts of law,
and of their ever-varying judgments. The Scottish bar was
now so much reduced both in the number of first-rate, and
other counsel, that it was perfectly impossible that
persons could get their cases conducted without a
very great, indeed an enormous expense.—(Hear, hear.)
It appeared that in Scotland the vacations of the Courts of
Session exceeded the time of the sessions themselves. One
court sat 113 days, and the other only 103 days. By a re-
turn, which he had moved for in 1840, it appeared that for ten
years there had been 813 appeals to the House of Lords. Out
of these 598 came from Scotland, or nearly three-fourths of
the number of the whole kingdom. The Hon. Member then
referred to several documents to show the comparative expen-
diture of the law courts of Ireland, Scotland, and England,
and the business done in each. He contended that the busi.
ness in the criminal, as compared with the civil courts, was
simple, easy, and disisosed of with facility. He next referred
to the time devoted to judicial business by the House of Lords,
which, he said, did not average five hours a day. Then with
respect to the Court of Quarter Sessions, he would beg leave
to read a short statement upon that subject. Having done so,
he then went on to say, that the reason he had brought this
question forward was, because he had hitherto entirely failed
in inducing the Government to give them a better system of
jurisprudence. All over Scotland criminals were brought up
time after time, and for a series of slight offences
might be convicted and sentenced to transportation.
In England there was a frequent opportunity of
trying prisoners, but in Scotland, they had the old jog-trot
system of holding an assize once in six months. They had
wisely legislated for England and Ireland in this respect, for
prisoners were tried at periods near to the time when their
offence' had been committed, and they had, therefore, a great
advantage over Scotland towards the repression of crime.
During the sitting of the Court of Session, and then only, pri-
soners were tried once a week in Edinburgh. Why was not
that. system adopted over the whole of Scotland? But, in-
stead of this, persons were kept in prison who might be inno-
cent, for four or five months, and this was so because the con-
venience of the judges was consulted rather than the proper
administration of the law. He did submit that this was a
state of things which ought not to be suffered to continue.
There was great inconvenience to the inhabitants of Scot-
land generally, under the present mode of proceeding,
He believed that nothing could be more injurious to the morals
of the people of Scotland, and to their right to have justice
fairly administered, than the present system. With respect tot he
penitentiary system, that was found to be an entire failure.
*hen the criminals were discharged they returned to their
old habits; and he was satisfied that if the House adopted his
recommendation, it would remedy the evils. If the proposal
he had suggested met with the approbation of the House, there
would be a great improvement in the general jurisdiction of
the courts of Scotland. The Honourable Member con-
eluded by making the motion of which he had
given notice:—" To bring before the House the amount
of business done yearly by the Court of Session, and the nature
and extent of the duties of the judges composing that Court;
and to ask leave to bring in a Bill to repeal so much of the
Act I William IV., c. 69, as provides that there shall be thir-
teen judges in the said court ; and to extend the jurisdiction of
the stipendiary county judges, called sheriffs, by giving them
the power of awarding the punishment of transportation, in
the event of the judges in the Court of Session being reduced
below the number of thirteen."
The LORD ADVOCATE objected to the motion. The
Hon. Member had not made out any case for any alteration
of the constitution of any of the Scotch Courts. In 1840 the
Hon. Member had made a proposition very similar to this. At
that, time an investigation had taken place. That investigation
had been full and ample, and a hat was the result? It had then
been decided, not that there should be a reduction of the num..
her of the judges, but that the business should be so divided,
that each case should obtain more of the time of each
of those judges. Many of those views which the
Hon. Gentleman entertained at the time that investiga-
tion took place, he seemed now not to have taken. One of the
two inner chambers of the court—those courts of appeal which
reviewed the adjudication of causes before single judges—has
before it an excess of business. At the date of the Commis-
sion in 1840 the business of those courts was less than it had
been for some years before. It continued to be much smaller
than it had been up to 1842, and during that and the following
year it gradually increased; but he believed no inconvenience
had arisen from this circumstance. or to affect the result of the
investigation of the Committee in 1842. It should not be sup-
posed that because a greater quantity of business is at times
performed in one court than another, that that court was inef-
ficient or useless. Still less should it be supposed that because
a less number of cases was heard in one court than another, that
Court was idle. A combination of circumstances some-
times threw a greater quantity of business into one court
than another. In one of the divisional courts of Scotland
there was at that moment a most fortunate combination of
talent and legal knowledge.—( Hear, hear.) It was not
wonderful, therefore, that such a number of causes were
brought there. If two courts were wanting in 1840, which
it was clear were required at that time, surely they could not
in 1845 dispense with one of them. It frequently happened
that causes of greater intricacy were brought into one of the
courts—the hearing of those causes was more protracted—and
occupied a greater length of time. It would, therefore, be
seen that the number of causes was a most fallacious test. But
even with respect to the number to which the Hon. Member
had so pointedly alluded, let him, instead of considering the
mere quantity, look to the description of those causes. Now,
those gentlemen who reported in the law courts, reported only
those cases which were in some points of view remarkable, and
deserving notice. He would read for the House, from an official
return, the record of these causes that had been tried in the
two courts. In the first division of the court in the year I&12,
108 causes had been reported. In the second 158. In the
fi. st division, in 1834 (the year ending Nov. 4), there had been
98 causes tried; in the second 111. The judges of both courts
were almost continually occupied between the circuits and what
was done in the ordinary courts and in the chambers. The
whole period intervening between the rising of one session and
the sitting of another, was in this manner occupied. The Hon.
Member proposed to do away with the circuits of the supreme
judges, and to vest in the sheriffs the power of passing sentence
of transportation. He thought that this would be an unwise
and unsatisfactory measure. At present those who were sent
to be tried before the circuit courts had their cases previously
anxiously investigated. If they gave to sheriffs this power,
what would ensue? There were thirty-one sheriffs, each of
whom might arrive at a different decision. At all events, it
was quite clear that with such a number there could be nothing
like uniformity in the punishment, than which nothing could
be more desirable. Here were thirty.one separate discretions,
in addition to the judges; and, in short, he did not know of any
course that would be mere likely to cast a blot upon their
criminal jurisprudence. At present no man was tried
subject to transportation without being defended by counsel.
In the High Court of Justiciary every man was defended by
counsel. If he asked for counsel, the request was at once con-
ceded, and he got any counsel, he chose to seek. If it were a
serious charge, no counsel at the bar would refuse his assist-
ance, be the situation of the accused never so odious. One
case of this nature, in which counsel had been asked—they
must be all familiar with it—the case of Burke and Hare. The
present Lords Moocrieff, Jeffreys, Robinson, and Cockburn,
lent their assistance.—( Hear, hear.) After some further ob-
servations the Noble Lord concluded by saying that without a
case of great necessity, which the Hon. Member had not made
out, his proposition could not be maintained, and he therefore
felt bound to oppose it.
Mr. FOX M A ULE said, that whatever opinion they might
entertain as to the merits of the question before the House,
they must all admire the ability, good temper, and moderation
with which his Hon. Friend had introduced it. He felt hound
to say that he did not agree with him—( Hear, hear)—and en-
tirely agreed with the Noble and Learned Lord that it would
be unwise to give the inferior courts greater jurisdiction than
they had at present. Such being the case, he could not assent
to this motion. But it was possible that eircurnstances might
arise to bring this matter under the notice of the Government,
and if such circumstances did present themselves means might
be devised by which the business of the Court of Session might
be so regulated that parties coming to that court might be
redressed. He would not say what means ; but perhaps one of
the most obvious was to give parties coming to that court the
power of choosing their own courts. Should this means be
devised, he believed it would be sufficient for the purpose; but,
if not, there was little doubt but that other means would
present themselves of obviating the difficulty.
Air. WALLACE, in reply, said that he understood that the
opinion of the Lord Advocate was, that young persons who had
committed an offence should go on until their tendency to
offence was nurtured .into habit.—(" No, no," from the
Treasury Benches.) Either such must be the ease, or else
the offences which were daily committed must be stopped.
What was the course pursued ? Young persons were seldom
brought before the inferior courts. They were first subjected
to the jurisdiction of magistrates, then of the sheriffs, and then
of the Court of Session. There was no power that could
iudict the punishment of transportation below the Court
of Session. Now, it was well known that persons
were frequently committed, respecting whom it was
not known whether they were subject to the penalty of
transportation or not, and no fitting adjudication of their
case could be made. The Hon. Member for Perth had passed
a Bill to remedy some of the defects of which he (Mr.
Wallace) complained. But he believed that it was the
opinion of all Scotland that that measure was a perfect failure,
or if not a perfect failure, yet ris nearly so as possible. It did
not, at any rate, obviate the evil of which he (Mr. Wallace)
complained. The real question was, whether prisoners liable
to transportation should be tried once in six months, as was
the system now followed in Scotland, er whether they should,
as he desired, be brought to trial once in every ten days or a
fortnight. The judges complained that their time was so
occupied by reading papers that they had no sufficient oppor-
tunity of fulfilling their public duty. Now he (Mr. Wallace)
wished that no papers should be read by the judges. If the
judges were so oppressed, and had their duties to perform, he
would put the Jurisdiction Act in force. He believed that the
judges acted on something the same principle as the Board of
Trade. They were fonder of reading those papers at home
than of doing their duty in the public courts. He had been led
to believe that the custom of the Board of Trade was for its
several members to take the papers to their own houses, and,
after considering them there, to give their decision, when
they assembled at the office. Now, in his (Mr. Wallace's)
opinion, it was perfectly absurd to go on to a certain position,
then submit the papers to a judge, for him to put in his
pocket, to consider at his leisure at home. The Lord Advo-
cate had said that a remedy for these defects would be to allow
the people to choose their own courts. But, for his part, he
believed that the true remedy would be to allow the
people to choose their own judges, rather than their own
courts. It was his belief that if the Lord Chief Justice Clerk,
by any accident were to be removed to any other Court, he
would have as little business to transact as he had now. He
was aware that he was using strong language, but he believed
the facts of the case would justify the use of such language ;
and he hoped, at least, that the discussion of the matter in that
House would do some good. In the face of the opposition
which he had experienced, he felt it would not be wise to pro-
ceed, and therefore he should withdraw his motion ; but he
believed that the admonition to the judges would be of service,
and he should consequently have the less regret in withdraw-
ing his motion..
CONDITION OF LIBERATED NEGROES.
Sir R. H. INGLIS said that his object in calling the atten-
tion of the House to the motion of which he had given notice,
vsus sireely one cf 1r! ‘,fir t 9 thr. rerfons whnrrt be ‘r..5 de-
sirous to serve; and he therefore hoped that the terms
were such as would avoid any hostile discussion. When
negroes were deported from Africa and taken by our vessels, it
was generally supposed that they were provided for. From the
time the slave trade was abolished by law it was certainly

understood that their necessities should be supplied; but the
country would be surprised to learn that when a Spanish or
Portuguese slaver was taken by one of our vessels, and trans-
ferred to British protection, their wants were as little cared for
as ashen on board of the vessels of their original captors. Nor
was the case mush improved when these unfortunate creatures
were landed at Sierra Leone. By the narrative of Mr. Pascoe
Hill, whom he had not the honour of knowing, but whom every
man would honour for his kindness and humanity in accom-
panying a cargo of those negroes 'in the character of an in-
terpreter—by that gentleman's statement it appeared that
all the horrors of the slave trade were not exaggerated,
and that they were such as to surpass the conceptions
of the most fervid imagination. These horrors were the same,
whether those unfortunate creatures were placed under the
command of a British officer, or whether under fa at of an
officer of a foreign country, for the horrors appeared to be a
part of the system. The physical condition in which these
negroes were landed at Sierra Leone was described as being in
the extreme frightful. He would not speak cf the wretched
fate of those whose deaths were caused by their sufferings—
that he would pass over ; his business was with the survivors.
Colonel Nichols had stated, that when they were landed from
the vessels they looked like ghosts. Those who were landed
at the Cape of Good Hope, he believed, were better in appear-
ance ; their lot was certainly preferable, but still it was bad
enough. He did not impute this as a charge against
any Government, for in this matter he believed Whig
and Tory to be equally blameless. All he wished was, that
her Majesty's Government would review the instructions given
to the Governor of Sierra Leone, and issued by him on the
10th June last year. By those it appeared that negroes, when
liberated and carried to Sierra Leone, were to exercise their
discretion whether they would remain in the colony, or whether
they would be removed to the West Indies ; but how were
they able to exercise any such discretion? In the Pro-
gresso, the vessel which Mr. Hill had joined as inter-
preter, out of the whole cargo of 447 not less than
230 were boys. In a dispatch from the Colonial
office it was required that every able person who was liberated
at Sierra Leone should decide whether they would support
themselves or whether they would emigrate to the West
Indies. Now, in this direction, no distinction was made of age
or sex. The child of six years of age was in the same posi-
tion as the adult. In the case to which he had alluded the
Governor withheld the application of this instruction on his
own responsibility, and restricted it to those children who were
nine years old. Now, it was a perfect mockery to offer such
an alternative to those persons. They were landed naked
and destitute on the shores of our colony, ignorant even of
every word of the language of their captors. He (Sir Robert
Inglis) did not think that he was a wiser man in 1845 than
he was in 1842, but he had yet the advantage of experience,
and he did not, therefore, feel himself bound to abide by a de-
cision of the Committee in that year, notwithstanding he had
not at that time protested against it. At page 15 of that report
Hon. Members would find a provision which recommended that
if a liberated negro was able either to maintain himself or could
get any relatives or friends to undertake for his maintenance,
he was to be at liberty to remain at Sierra Leone ; but if he
were without the means of maintaining himself, that then he
must of necessity become an emigrant to the West Indies.
He was tempted to deny the right of Government thus to en-
force the departure of those slaves within such a limited period,
for they must recollect that when that country took upon itself
the carrying of them to Sierra Leone, they promised also not
only to protect but to provide for them. He doubted, there-
fore, how far gentlemen could be said to be at liberty, after en-
tering into this engagement, to free themselves from the
obligation to protect and provide for that population.
The expenses of maintaining them at Sierra Leone had been
very considerable, and it was for them to consider whether it
would be better to retain them on the coast of Africa or to
remove them to where labour was more abundant. Admit-
ting that that cost was 12,0001. a year, or, taking the average
at 19,000/., whatever it might be, he (Sir R. H. Inglis)
maintained, that up to that moment there had been an excess
of income above the expenditure of the colonies. The pro-
clamation to which he had already so often referred, had the
authority of the King of England, and he held therefore that
it was not enough to say that they (the slaves)
were a burden on the local resources of the colonies.
They were pledged to France, to the world, and to the
whole negro race to maintain and protect them. Much had
been said against the state of Sierra Leone, but if the
House looked to the report of the Committee he had quoted
from, and which had before it evidence of a mixed character
'—they would find that a large proportion of persons in that
colony were liberally educated, more so, indeed, than in any
other of the dependencies of this country. The report
stated, that one-fifth of the inhabitants were in course of
education. If that were so, surely the founders and sup-
porters of Sierra Leone were entitled to credit for their ex-
ertions. They at least were not responsible for the misma-
nagement of the affairs of the country. One of his ob-
jections to the course which Government had pursued
was, that they had interfered with this system of
things.—( Hear.) in the month of July in last year
a Government agent had gene throughout the schools,
and he would quote from a letter, written by an individual,
detailing the effect produced by his interference. The agent
had required many of the children to emigrate to the West
Indies, or to be put out among the cultivators of the country.
No less than 100 boys and girls had been induced, through
misrepresentation of the Government agent, to leave the
schools of education, and to embark for Jamaica. He would
not say one word which would imply the slightest objection to
free ingress into the West Indies, but he most certainly ob-
jected that, in the plan proposed by Government, they were
giving the negroes a semblance of free-will, knowing well
that they could not exercise it. They were, as Dr. Johnson
said, throwing them out of the window, and recommend-
ing them, at the same time, not to fall on the ground.
They were in this manner depriving Africa itself
of one of the means of improving its advantages. He found,
in a letter addressed by the Governor of Sierra Leone to Lord
Stanley, in April, 1844, that such were the facilities for leav-
ing the colony, that a very large number of the black popula-
tion were quitting for other parts of the country. He would
always speak with respect of the labours of the Wesleyan
Missions, but he must also speak of the good done by the Missions
of the Church of England. In that colony alone they had
no less than ten pastors, two of whom, he (Sir R. H. Inglis)
had the honour of knowing. Those were circumstances which
would benefit to the utmost degree the colony and those per-
sons who were brought from the interior of Africa and
liberated there. He (Sir R. H. Inglis) had no wish to prevent
emigration to the West Indies, but he certainly desired that her
Majesty's Government should continue the same policy that
had been pursued by their predecessors, and for a time by them-
selves. if they gave to the black population a bona fide free-
dom of will, and if then they chose to leave for the West
Indies or for other places, he should not desire to deter them.
When the Noble Lord at the head of the Colonial department
at first undertook the revision of the policy of his predecessors,
he required that the proportion of the sexes in Sierra Leone
should be no less than one-third of the female to two-thirds of
the male population. Now, it could not be contended that it
was impossible to preserve that proportion, for during the last
few years the population in Sierra Leone amounted to about
20,000 males and about 17,000 females. He had stated, in
the commencement of the observations which he had addressed
to that House, and it was hardly necessary for him to reiterate
it, that he bore no ill-will to the Legislature for their course
of policy upon this subject. But he knew the sufferings that
had accrued in consequence of this act of theirs, and he could
not conceal from himself that it might be productive of
evil consequences in their relations with other Powers.
He would recommend the Government to study the interests
of their colonies in the first instance, and not to refrain from
doing that which was right, because some of their neighbours
might think it was wrong. Yet, at the same time, they
should regulate their conduct so as to give no occasion of
offence to other powers. They had seen with what a jealous
eye France looked upon the proceedings of England—how
they watched the question of the right of search, and every
thing connected with the culture of sugar, and with the ame-
lioration of the condition of that section of their fellow-men,
who were known as slaves. In the last report that had reached
them of the proceedings' in the Brazilian Cortes, it was
distinctly stated that their right to introduce negroes
into America remained untouched. It was evident
therefore, from what he had stated, and from many facts in his
possession, but with which he would not then trouble the House,
that there was too much reason to believe that something very
like a slave trade was peculiar to the east coast of Africa in
supplying the Mauritius. Among the correspondence for which
he had moved there was an ordonnance relating to the
Mauritius, and he had no reason to suppose that it would be
withheld by the Government. There was reference made to a
regular importation of negroes into the Mauritius ; and in the
Slave Trade Papers of 1843 they would find a long account of
the mode in which slaves had been taken from the east coast of
Africa to supply that colony. There was a somewhat ludicrous
phrase in the instructions emanating from the agency-house
which authorized this slave traffic. They (the captors)
were to pre-dispose and to captivate the mind of
the negro—they were to paint in glowing colours
the landscape of that island they were to expatiate upon
the happiness and comfort which there awaited him.
All the evils which took place upon the west coast of Africa
occurred in every part from which there was an emigration of
the labourers. The kings had a property in their subjects,
and when labourers were wanted to emigrate, if the kings
could not find a sufficient number of their own subjects to
dispose of, they made incursions into the lands of their neigh-
bours, and carried off their population to supply the deficiency.
It was true that this statement did not apply to Sierra Leone,
to which the first part of his motion referred, but it did apply
to the Mauritius, which was the object of the second part. Now
he would not ask the Government to follow the example of
their predecessors, but to follow their own example. Their
predecessors the Marquis of Normanby and Lord John
Russell had spoken distinctly on the subject: " that no pre-
caution could be taken which would prevent the misery and
infamy of the slave trade from being attached to the system of
emigration." His Right. Hon. Friend at the head of the Go-
vernment had expressed himself in similar terms. For his
own part, he (Sir Robert Inglis) was not prepared to say
that the experiment should not be made, if it were made
under circumstances which would afford a probability of suc-
cess. But they should sacrifice no principle in the attempt.
They should not keep the word of good faith to the ear and
break it to the heart. He was sensible that in the great expe-
riment for which England paid 20,000,0001., it was said that
it would take away from the West Indians only the power of
coercion—that the bodies of the labourers would remain, and
that the planters would only have to supply in wages the place
of the coercion which was taken away from them ; but there
was no doubt entertained of the adequacy of negro labour in
the West Indies to compensate for the abolition of slavery. He
believed that the climate of the West Indies was admirably
fitted to the African race ; but he was not prepared to weigh
the interest of the West Indies against the blood of the Africans,
nor did he think they were bound to do evil that good
might come.—( Hear, hear.) They were bound, both as indi-
viduals and as a nation, to secure for those persons for whom
they had made so much exertion and sacrifice, for forty years,
a protection from the miseries from which it had been the
object of this country to rescue their race. He concluded by
moving for the returns set forth in his notice; that was, for
dispatches and other papers relating to Sierra Leone and
the Mauritius.
Mr. HOPE rose, amidst loud cries of " Order, order," and
" Who seconds?" He said that he rose to second the motion.
—(Laughter.) He assured his Right Hon. Friend (Sir R.
Inglis)e
rs
tfhorat hwehofemlt an
iequifoaoll. Friend's sympathies had been
y deep interest in the unfortunate
awakened. But he must protest against some of the language
used by his Hon. Friend. He must deny that the Govern-
mentwould weigh the interests of the West Indians against
the blood of the African ; or that they would; do evil
that good might come. The very reverse was the
course pursued by the Government, and instead of breaking
faith with the liberated Africans, the endeavours of the Go-
vernment had been to promote their substantial good. As early
as 1807 there was a provision enacted by statute for the pro-
tection of negroes liberated from slave ships, and several alte-
rations and improvements had since taken place from time to
time. His Hon. Friend had commented on the proclamation
of the Governor in such a way as to leave the impression that
when those unfortunate persons were landed at Sierra Leone
from the slave-ships, in a state of debility and emaciation, they
were required to make their option whether they would emi-
grate to the West Indies or support themselves in Sierra Leone'
by their own labour, before they had recovered theirstrength.
—( The Hon. Gentleman then read the proclamation.) He
contended that his Hon. Friend was not justified in Sheanter-
eretation which he had put upon it. The object ottbe Proclama-
tion was only to warn the negroes that they must
look to their own exertions, bet it did not hind the
Government from aiding them, Until they Were in a condition
to sustain themselves ' • and they were always allowed time to
recover their strength before they were required to work for

Mr. MANGLES said the speech of the Hon. Gentleman
would lead one to suppose that he could hardly have heard
the remarks made by the Hon. Member for Gateshead. The
Hon. Alember, instead of opposing the motion, spoke in the
highest terms of commendation of the tone and manner in
which the Right Hon. Baronet, the Member for the Univer-
sity of Oxford, had brought the subject before the House.
The Hon. Member, moreover, had expressed his earnest wish
that the Government might succeed in their present policy,
and he (Mr. Wortley) could hardly understand how the Hon.
Member for the West Riding could object to the spirit or
mode of delivery of the Hen. Member's speech. He thought
they might discover the interference of the Church Missionary
Society in this motion. He had himself been a member of
that Society for some years, and he had found that, generally,
they had done much good. There were, however, occasions
on which he thought they exhibited an undue degree of inter-
ference.

Sir T. D. ACKLAND next addressed the House. We under-
stood him warmly to defend the proceedings of the Church
Missionary Society, with which he was proud to be connected.
Adverting to the Niger expedition, he contended that,
although it had been attended with misfortune, yet it had done
more to advance the interests of this country in Africa than
had been before accomplished in centuries, and he believed that
great benefits would yet result from it. Although the
sacrifice of life was very great, yet, in the same year of
the expedition, an equal mortality occurred in a regiment
stationed in the West Indies. This country Was
much indebted to the exertions of his lamented
friend, Sir Thomas Buxton, whom God had been pleased
so recently to remove ; and be thought that no man in
that House would withhold the meed of praise to which that
great man was entitled. With respect to the motion imme-
diately before the House, he would say that he concurred in
the recommendation in the report on this subject, to make free
labour, obtained from the other side of the Atlantic, available
in the West Indies. He never could understand why the
planter, after the use of slave labour was denied him, should
not be assisted in obtaining the use of free labour. He bought,
with his Hon. Friend the Member for the West Riding of
Yorshire, that this was only a question of regulation. In
conclusion, he expressed the satisfaction which he felt at the
dained two or three natives of Africa.
bapepoiwuntamlaeint,toinfinSdiertrbaatLetobnee,Boisfbmopenofof cLoooldoouor tboadoffilacteely aoad
r.
abtou thrsat
bSadocie ex-
tended,tybad
notwithstanding Mr. PLUMPTRE said he had long been a member of the
Church
created Missionarygreas Sac
blessings,iety,
ding the taunt of the Hon. Member oppo-
site, with respect to undue interference.
Mr. MANGLES explained. He had the greatest respect
for the labours of the Church Missionary Society.
and
w wherever r he
ev e believedr their tlha
After a few words from Mr. HOPE in explanation, and Sir
It. brcus in reply, the motion was agreed to,

themselves.—( Hear.) Now, his Hon. Friend had stated that
children of nine years of age were required to emigrate to the
West Indies. That was not the case. Children of nine years
of age were retained in Sierra Leone in the schools until they
were twelve years old; and then, if they chose to emigrate—
and every one who knew the African race would know
that in those three years they would be sufficiently matured
to be allowed an opinion. And then the persons who took
them out were bound to send them regularly to the schools,
and to have them taken to the church on Sundays. The
Hon. Gentlemen read several extracts from the proceedings
of the Church Missionary Society, of which his Hon. Friend
(Sir R. H. Inglis) was a leading member, to show that the
education of the young negroes in Jamaica was in a most fa-
vourable state. The adults who did not choose to emigrate
obtained employment amongst the agriculturists at Sierra
Leone ; but their condition was very inferior to
that of their free brethren in Jamaica. (Hear. )
The Hon. and Learned Member then said he would call the
attention of the House to certain Government returns and
other papers and letters issued in the year 1843, and having
read extracts from them, he contended that they proved be-
yond all doubt that nothing could exceed the rapidity with
which education had advanced in Trinidad. By the same
papers he conceived it was quite apparent that emigration to
the West Indies from Sierra Leone had gone on successfully
and should be encouraged; for the returns before him proved
that in Jamaica there was a very large preponderance of females
over males ; that in Dominica it was the same ; in Trinidad
the same ; and in Java, at George Town, the same facts ap-
plied to the relative numbers of the male and female
population. The Honourable Member opposite had made
allusion to the ordonnance that had been issued by the Govern-
ment upon the subject in regard to the Mauritius ; but he
(Mr. Hope) believed that a copy of that ordennance had been
received here this morning, and therefore he had no means of
ascertaining whether it had been enforced or not. The Hon.
Member concluded by saying, it was his opinion that the
people of the West Indies should be educated. (The above is
but an imperfect outline of what the Hon. Member said, for,
owing to his having stood, all the time he was speaking, with
his back to the gallery, and speaking in a low tone, only a
word or two he said in each sentence could be heard.)
Mr. AG LIONBY said it would be impossible for him to
follow the Hon. Member, the Under Secretary, in all the
statements he had read, or to have had any of the information
to which the Hon. Member had access ; but he was glad that
those papers had been produced and read, because they con-
veyed information important not only to the best interests of
humanity, but also to the interests of the inhabitants of the
West Indies. He was one of those who had objected to the
House granting any loan or grant for the purpose of eman-
cipating slaves, for he (lid not think such ought to have been
necessary ; and he would not have alluded to it, or to those
papers at all, but for what the Under Secretary had said upon
the subject. With regard to what the Hon. Member had
said about emigration from Sierra Leone, he (Mr. Aglionby)
would be glad to hear a fuller statement upon that subject ;
but whether the Hon. Member should give it or not, be (Mr.
Aglionby) begged to say that there was a strong feeling abroad
that the missionaries to Sierra Leone and other countries had
done much mischief. As to the missionaries to New Zealand,
that had proved most injurious, for it bad produced persecution
without end, had materially retarded civilisation in that
country, and created great excitement amongst the abori-
gines. He mentioned this subject now with a view
to calling attention to it, and to hope that some
inquiry would be made into the principle upon which those
Missionary Societies were founded. He had beard of cir-
cular letters being sent to Members of Parliament, having for
their object to deter those gentlemen from taking any part
against that Society's proceedings in regard to the West
Indies. He then read a copy of the circular, and said his ob •
ject in doing so was, to show Hon. Members how misled
they had been in reference to those Church Missionary
Societies.—( Hear.)
Mr. HOPE said a few words in explanation.
Lord SANDON said he conceived that the Honourable
Member opposite had introduced a matter into the question
before the House, which had no relevancy whatever to it,
namely, the Church Missionary Society; and the Hon.
Member appeared so anxious to do it, that he had gone off at
half-cock, on a hair-trigger.--(Laughter.) He would beg to
assure the Hon. Member that the Church Missionary Society
must have been misrepresented, for that body did not at all
interfere in the manner described with the natives of those
places. The Noble Lord concluded with expressing a hope
that the motion of the Right Hon. Member for the University
of Oxford would be acceded to by the Government.
Mr. HUTT, having been a member of the Committee ap-
pointed to inquire into the subject of negro emancipation,
could not avoid the opportunity of saying a
.few words on that
occasion. He had listened with great attention to the speech
of the Right Hon. Baronet, as well as to one or two state-
ments made by the Under-Secretary for the Colonies, but it
appeared to him there had been no facts brought forward
which had not been previously considered by the Noble Lord
the Secretary for the Colonies. The Government had fol-
lowed out the recommendations made in the report
of the Committee alluded to ; and though he did
not usually support their views, he felt bound to
do so on that occasion. The policy they were now
pursuing was an exceeding wise one, and he only re-
gretted it had not been ad, pted earlier. The Right Hon.
Baronet had stated his views with considerable moderation and
firmness, and he wished some Hon. Gentleman who possessed
his opinions would follow his example. It certainly appeared
to him that many of the statements brought forward by the
parties to whom he referred, and he might allude to the
Noble Lord the Secretary himself, were wanting in the
feeling of moderation and temper evinced by the Right Hon.
Bert. For his own part he was conscious, if the Government
would only pursue the course they had already so successfully
commenced, they would improve the condition of the colonies, and
advance the social compact of the emancipated Africans. They
owed the West Indies a heavy debt, and the only means of im-
proving their condition was for the Government to proceed
steadily forward in their present course, and then they would
have the additional satisfaction of throwing open to the British
manufacturer an extended colonial market. If they did this
he was persuaded that the dream of Wilberforce, Clarkson,
and other philanthropists, would ere long be realised. By
affording ample opportunities for emigration to the West
Indies, the system of slavery which had hitherto resisted all
their attacks in the United States, Mexico and the Brazils,
would be entirely overthrown. He was satisfied of this, because
the course he recommended would afford the only means to the
colonists of underselling the States he had mentioned. They
would thus put down African slavery without collision or vio-
lence with any other power, and all this would undoubtedly be
accomplished if the Government were disposed honestly and
boldly to carry out their present course. They had increased
the price of colonial sugar, and thereby given an impetus to
labour, while the course pursued on the other hand was only
calculated to encourage the exhibitions made at Exeter Hall.
He hoped, ;therefore, the Government would maintain their
present policy, and they might rely on his strenuous and cor-
dial support.
Mr. STUART WORTLEY could see nothing in the
motion of the Right Honourable Gentleman the Mem-
ber for the University of Oxford, to justify the rhapsody
of the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down against slavery.
What connexion there was between the speech of his Right
Hon. Friend and Exeter-hall, he was quite at a loss to dis-
cover. At all events, any one who had listened to the speech
of his Right Hon. Friend, would agree with him that no ob-
servation which fell from his lips justified the attack which had
been made upon that place by the Hon. Member who had last
addressed the House. It appeared to him that the Hon. Gen-
tleman had misinterpreted the observations of his Right Hon.
Friend, the Member for the University of Oxford. The
Honourable Gentleman seemed to think that the mo-
tion was brought forward with the view of per-
petuating some of the objectionable proceedings which
had taken place in the West Indies. 1\ ow, he did not
understand that his Hon. Friend made use of any such argu-
ment to justify his motion. But this he understood, that his
Hon. Friend brought it forward because he thought a change
had been introduced into the regulations relating to the re-
moval of the negro population from one place to another which
was not consistent with justice. His Hon. Friend was, there-
fore, perfectly justified in proceeding with his motion, and he
did not think there had been any very serious objection urged
against it. It was desired upon all hands that those regulations
should be made as effective as possible, so long as they remained
in force. The question as to whether they should be continued
was another matter. But if they were to give the African the
right of exercising option, it behoved the House to see that
such regulations were established as would seeure its exercise.
What was the object of his Hon. Friend's motion ? Why, his
Hon. Friend moved for papers which had certainly introduced
a change in the regulations respecting this option ; and no
one could be sorry that he had brought his motion forward ; for
if these documents, when produced, should not prove satisfac-
tory, they would have an opportunity of placing the option on firm
ground. What was the real state of the case with respect to
these documents P So long ago as the year 1841, a dispatch
from Lord John Russell, who was then Secretary of State for
the Colonies, announced that the time had arrived for assisting
the emigration of negrocs to the West Indies ; and therefore
the negro must support himself, either by removing to the in-
terior where his labour might be made available, or, taking
advantage of the other alternative, of emigrating to the
West India colonies. It was required by the same
dispatch, that the negro should pronounce his option within
six weeks after he had obtained his freedom ; but this period
of time being considered too long it was subsequently reduced to
three weeks. If at the expiration of this time the negro failed
to make up his mind, his allowance was discontinued. Now it
was impossible to suppose that a negro, immediately after his
deliverance from the slave ship, could be in a condition to sup-
port himself in the colony where he obtained his freedom, or
to emigrate to any distant part of the world ; and he did think
that some additional assistance ought to be afforded to the
Africans. With regard to the motion, he would say but one
word. Its object appeared to be to ascertain if the regulations
relating to the removal of negroes was fairly and properly
carried out.

COLONY OF HONG-KONG.
Dr. BOWRING said he was about to ask for some informa-
tion from her Majesty's Government, which was well entitled
to the attention of the House—he referred to s woe proceedings
which had taken place in Hong-Kong, and although he knew
it was difficult to find a person to manage their interests in
China as they were managed by Sir H. Pottinger, whose bril-
liant administration exposed his successor to the danger of a
disadvantageous contrast ; it was at the same time the universal
wish that all the proceedings in that quarter should be charac-
terised by prudence and wisdom. It was of the utmost im-
portance that no impression unfavourable to the British repu-
tation should be made on the minds of the residents. A posi-
tion had been taken up by the Governor in Council, from which
he was obliged to retire. He referred toan ordinance of the 21st
Aug., 1t44, which, however, appeared not to be promulgated till
two months after date, so that the Governor in Council had time
to consider its effect. It stated that, for the purpose of secur-
ing order and tranquillity in Hong-Kong anti its dependencies,
the ordinance was published, but the immediate effect of it was
to create confusion, and to lead to an outbreak. It not only
referred to Hong- Kong but to its dependencies ; but is hat the
dependencies of Hong-Kong were he did not know. The ordi-
nance stated that all the inhabitants, of the age of twenty-eight
and upwards, were to appear at the registrar's office, where the
following particulars were exacted from them, which, if even
bearable by the English residents there, would be perfectly
intolerable and impossible of execution to those educated in
oriental ideas. They were required to eeme to the regis-
trar-general's office, where the age, and birth, and place of
residence of every person were to be registered. 'I hey were to
state the date of their arrival, what the circumstances of their
family were, and those of their connexion, with places of red-
' dense, what their e-nployment was, ss hether they were male or
fena'e, married or single. What would be the feelings of per-
sons in England if they were subjected to such an inquisition,
and if they would be indignant at it, he askei them to con-
sider the feelings of persons accustomed to oriental habits.
When, some year. ago, Mehemet Ali attempted to get at the
population of Cairo, be was every where met with so much
opposition, that he was obliged to give up the attempt. If
the difficulties to be met with in Egypt were so great, they
would be still greater in Hong-Kong. The consequences of
this ordinance was, that 3,000 of the inhabitants left the
colony. The Bazaar was in a state of great commotion. All
public works were suspended, and the markets of ic-
toria Town were deserted. Every head man was re-
sponsible for every coolie he had under him, and
arbitrary punishment might be inflicted on any person
who came to the colony and did not report himself
within twenty-four hours. Every overseer was also responsi-
ble for the inhabitants of the village in which he resided.
Any person who had a property of not less than ten dollars per
month had to pay one dollar for registration. It was no wonder
then that the appearance of such a document should have
created a great sensation in the colony. Meetings of the com-
mercial men were held on the subject, resolutions were passed,
and a remonstrance was made to the Governor in Council,
who stated, in a second answer which he made, that he was
surprised at the repetition of the statements contained in the
first letter, which had already met with the strong reprobation
of the Governor in Council, and the Governor in Council would
in future abstain from paying the smallest attention to their re-
presentations. Now he would ask whether it was right that such
a state of things should be continued ? He thought that it
ought to be rectified at once, that such a stigma might not
rest on the English character. The Hon. and Learned Member
concluded by making the motion of which he had given notice.
Mr. G. W. HOPE opposed, the motion on the ground
that the Government had not received any communication on
the subject.
Sir J. STAUNTON opposed the motion on the ground of
its being premature.
Dr. BOWRING said he did not understand that it was
intended to refuse the ultimate production of the docu-
ments for which he had moved. He would, for the present,
withdraw the motion, reserving to himself the right to rein-
troduce it when all the documents were in the hands of the
Government.
The motion was then withdrawn.
MEDICAL REFORM BILL.
Colonel WOOD "presented a petition from medical practi-
tioners at Kensington, preying for some summary mode of
convicting unlicensed practitioners; also complaining that the
appointment of a Council of Health, without including a single
representative of the general practitioners, was most unjust.
On rising to move for leave to bring in a Bill for the better
regulation of medical practice throughout the United Kingdom,
Sir J. GRAHAM said he hoped that before he sat down he
should convince his Honourable Friend, who had just
presented a petition, that that petition had no reference
to the Bill immediately under consideration. He should not
feel it his duty to make any elaborate statement with reference
to the measure; but, considering the great importance of the
subject, and the excited state of public feeling, he would at
once candidly bring under the consideration of the House and
the public, the alterations which he proposed to make in the
Bill introduced last session. The House would remember that
when he introduced the Bill towards the close of last session,
he stated that, considering the great public interests involved
in the measure which he proposed, and the manner in which it
affected both the public and one of the most useful
and learned professions, hasty legislation would be most
imprudent, and that he should act most fairly towards the pro-
fession, and best consult the interests of the public, by
laying, at the close of the session, the precise measure which
he proposed on the table of the House, for the purpose of
securing that it would undergo general discussion. The fair-
ness of that course could not, he thought, be denied even by
those who were opposed to the measure, and its usefulness was
equally evident. The measure had been amply discussed, and
he was now about to state shortly to the House what
had been the result of the discussion, as regarded
the amendment of the measure which it was his duty to pro-
pose. He would now briefly recapitulate the leading objects of
the measure—objects which would, he thought, form the basis
of any measure which might be introduced on that subject.
The first object of the measure to which he adhered was the
establishment in thin country of a council of health, which
should exercise general superintendence and control over me-
dical and surgical education throughout the United King-
dom, to consist of a board in the metropolis, of easy, and
therefore, as he thought, of useful access to the Execu-
tive Government, on all those great questions affecting
the health of the people which must, from time to time,
necessarily arise and claim serious consideration. His object
was, that in cases of sudden epidemic, and with respect to
measures which it might be necessary to adopt on the authority
of the Executive Government, with reference to the health of
large cities, and generally in all cases affecting the public
health, a council, easy of access, should exist, which might be
consulted by the Executive Government of the country.
That was the first object. The second object which he had in
view was to secure that all medical practitioners should have
equal facilities of practice throughout the United Kingdom ;
and also, that with that equality, as regarded prac-
tice, there should be, on behalf of the public,
security for the possession on the part of practitioners of an
equality of attainments. The third object was, that those at-
tainments being secured by examination, and the standard
being kept uniform, there should be a registration which should
give to the public notice that the practitioners so registered,
having undergone examination, had come up to the required
standard; and that notoriety being in possession of the public,
he proposed that public medical offices, for the encouragement
of medical practitioners, should be given only to such medical
practitioners as had been duly registered, and that
by law no title to practice should be given
to those who had not undergone the examination.
This was a short recapitulation of the leading objects of the
measure. Such were the objects secured by the measure
which he had the honour of introducing at the close of last
session. To those objects he adhered, and those objects
would, he believed, be attained by the Bill which he now
asked permission to introduce. Having recapitulated the
leading objects of the measure, it now became him to state
shortly in detail the alterations which he proposed to in-
troduce into the measure. Last session he ventured to pro-
pose the entire repeal of the statute of Henry VIII., which
gave to members of the Royal College of Physicians and
surgeons the exclusive right of practising in the metropolis and
within seven miles round. On the present occasion he did
not propose the entire repeal of that statute, but he proposed
its repeal absolutely and entirely with reference to all practi-
tioners registered under the Bill. He proposed, however, to
insert a clause exempting the Universities of Oxford and
Cambridge from the operation of the Bill.—( Hear, hear, from
some Hon. Members on the Opposition benches.) lie
thought the Hon. Gentlemen did not exactly understand the
effect of that exemption. The effect of it would be to exclude
the physicians obtaining their degree at Oxford or Cambridge
from the advantage of practising in the metropolis and
within seven miles round, unless they became con-
senting parties to, and came within the operation of
the Act. Oxford and Cambridge were at present somewhat
jealous of the measure ; they did not, as at present advised,
consent to come under the operation of the Act. He pro-
posed, then, to insert a clause, the effect of which would be
to leave those universities in the full enjoyment of the privilege
of granting degrees to medical men, and conferring on them
the right of practising in all parts of England and Wales, ex-
cept the metropolis and seven miles round. He hoped, how.
ever, that before the Bill went into Committee, an arrange-
ment might be made between those two learned bodies
and the Metropolitan College of Physicians, which would
supersede the necessity for this exempting clause. The
arrangement would, he expected, be this, that assessors should
go down from the body of physicians in London to Cambridge
and Oxford, and that :the same diploma which, being granted
by the university, gave the right of practice elsewhere, should,
by this arrangement, also confer the right of practice else-
where. He should then propose the withdrawment of the ex-
empting clause in Committee; an arrangement being made
with respect to the uninesities of Oxford and Cambridge
similar to the arrangement with the other learned bodies of
Scotland and Ireland. He now came to the question more
immediately raised on the petition presented by his Hon. and
Gallant Friend, namely, the question of the repeal of the
Apothecaries' Act. .Now he had come to the opinion
that it would not be expedient to propose the
total repeal of the Apothecaries' Act.—(Hear, hear.)
It was his intention to propose to the House to repeal the
Apothecaries' Act only so far as the parties registered under his
Bill were concerned. The effect of this partial repeal of the
Act would be this. Complaints were made against his Bill of
last session that he provided by it no sufficient security against
empirical practice, and that, not satisfied with this, he in addi-
tion proposed to remove all the existing penalties against such
practice. He did not attach much value to these penalties, but
still the effect of this partial repeal of the Apothecaries' Act
would be this, that it left these penalties untouched in the
entire form in which they at present existed. He should also
propose an additional security, one which he thought was
quite justifiable and consistent with sound principle. He should
propose that no person, not possessing the proper qualification,
and not coming up to the requisite standard, should venture to
practise medicine without subjecting himself always to the
risk of the criminal prosecution to which any one was still
liable by the general operation of the law for pretend-
ing to be that which he was not. He could not see
why an attempt to carry such an enactment should be objected
to. He would here mention that this system of a registration
of medical practitioners had been attempted in the
states, and had been attended with very goodeffect. United
B this
Bill he proposed that any person who
.shoioil
physician, sur-
geon, or By
himself, or assume the title or designation
geon, apothecary, or doctor, or any
other fd r
title recognised by
this Bill, should be liable to prosecution. But, in reference
to this part of the measure, perhaps the best course would be
to read this clause of the Bill to the House.
It was this : " Every unregistered person who
should falsely pretend to be, or take oruse any
f
name, or title of physician, doctor, bachelor,
the faculty of medicine, or surgeon, or licentiate of medicine,
or apothecary, or any other name or title recognised as that of
a medical or surgical practitioner, should be guilty of a mis-
demeanor, and be punishable by such fine or imprisonment,
or both, as the court before which he should be convicted
should award," He had thought it necessary to give to the
public this protection against empirical practice of the science
of medicine. He should propose, also, to repeal a portion of
the Apothecaries Act, referring to the office of examiners for
medical qualifications; by the Bill of last session it
was made necessary that in England physicians should be
the examiners for the degree of licentiates in medicine. At
present it was necessary that in England the examiners should
be members of the civic guild of the City of London. To this
guild admission could now, in point of fact, be obtained by
purchase, by inheritance, and by election ; there was no con-
dition attached to the functions, save that the examiners must
belong to this civic guild. Now he proposed that, in future,
these examiners should be apothecaries of ten years' standing,
or licentiates of medicine for the same time; he anticipated
that, after the lapse of ten years, they might be admitted as

jLeave was then given to bring in the Bill.
DISMISSAL OF MAGISTRATES IN IRELAND.
Mr. BELLEW said that he rose to move for the return of
which he had given notice, of any correspondence which took
place in the years 1842, 1843, and 1844, between the Lord
Chancellor of Ireland and the Earl of Lucan, relative to the
dismissal of the latter from, and subsequent restoration to, the
magistracy ; also for a copy of the Commission appointing the
said Earl of Lucan Lord-Lieutenant of the county of Mayo.
In making this motion, he (Mr. Bellew) was fully aware
that the Howe had been engaged during the last week
in the discussion of matters of much more general
interest than the business which he had to bring before them.
But he did not hesitate to say that none of those matters
created a deeper anxiety than that which he was about to sub-
mit to the House. It was a subject in which the public in
this country always took the most lively interest. When last
year the misconduct of a police magistrate had been publicly
noticed, not twenty-four hours had elapsed before the matter
was brought before the House ; and they had the assurance of
the Secretary of State for the Home Department that his at-
tention should be directed to it. When, also, last year the
conduct of another magistrate had been brought under consi-
deration in a court of law—he alluded to the observations

which were made in the case of the Queen v. Humphries upon
the conduct of the Duke of Marlborough—the Duke of
Marlborough was Lord-Lieutenant of the county of Oxford—
and it was necessary for the Noble Duke to give suffi-
cient evidence of his general efficiency as a Ma-
gistrate in order to prevent his dismissal from the
commission. He (Mr. Bellew) wished that there was the
same sensitiveness in her Majesty's Government in the case of
Lord Lucan. His (Mr. I3ellew's) motion had as a particular
object to ascertain on what principle the dismissals of magis-
trates from the commission of the peace in
Leland, since Sir Edward Sugden had been clan.