The Sun.
London, England, 1842-03-05 00:00:00

THE gt.TNr, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING, MARCH 5, 1842

sign manual and a warrant from the Lords of the Treasury,
were sent to the Comptroller of the Exchequer, ordering him
to pay so much—say 5,0001.—t0 the paymaster of such a sox--
vice; but this order and the warrant were accompanied by a
letter of directions from the Treasury, instructing the Comp-
troller how much of that sum was to be paid out at that time.
But even that was not paid by the Comptroller. All he did
was to give his warrant to the Bank of England, to transfer from
the Exchequer account to the account of the Paymaster
so much as the Lords of the Treasury directed.
The Paymaster then obtained that money from the Bank by
operating on that credit. At the time that a letter went to
the Treasury a duplicate went to the Paymaster, warning hie
of what had been done at the Comptroller• General's office,
and that was his (the Paymaster's) authority for operating on
that credit. He then drew his cheque, and every cheque
that he drew was first signed by himself and then counter-
signed by his accountant and cashier, and unless all these sig-
natures were to the cheque not owe penny could be obtained
on it. See, then, how many men must be concerned, how
many forgeries and felonies must be committed, to defraud
the public to the amount of one farthing? First, there
must be the chief clerk at the Exchequer ; he commits a
fraud and a forgery ; but that would not do, that would not
obtain anything from the Bank of England. Not only, then,
the chief clerk must concur, but the Paymaster of the Civil
Service must commit a fraud too, and some one must
have sent a forged letter from the Treasury to
the Paymaster, and then the Paymaster must have his
assistants, the accountant and cashier. concerned; so that there
must be four felonies and two forgeries committed,before any-
thing could be done to injure thepublic. Yet this was what his
Noble Friend called a case somewhat analogous to that com-
mitted by Smith, were the whole was entrusted to the care of
one individual, and who could damnify the public without the
assistance of any accomplice whatsoever. If Smith could not
have committed the fraud he did without the concurrence of ,
three or four other official kersons, no public officer could be
blamed. But the case of Smith was diametrically opposite to
this, he committed the fraud himself. But the act of
his Noble Friend putting his initials upon the Royal
Orders and Treasury Warrants, could not have the
effect of preventing those documents from being again
used to get money ; but those Orders and Warrants were
issued again, and again, as the money on them was paid by
instalments. But his Noble Friend did not put his initials on
the Treasury letter, which, however, was of no consequence,
as it was quire impossible to commit a fraud requiring the
junction of so many persons. But the weak point of the Ex-
chequer-office was often and often brought before Parliament.
The last notification was by Sir John Newport himself. The
Treasury knew formerly, as well as new, that the custody of
the paper, stamped, sealed, and signed, was in the custody of
the Chief Cleric ; but, certainly, as this practice had gone on
without mischief for 140 years, they were not to blame for
thinking that no risk was run. He (Lord Brougham) well
knew what a sdrhpulous, careful man Sir John Newport was ;
knowing that Lord Granville, who succeeded, was punctitiously
accurate, it was the greatest injustice to charge his Noble Friend
with not being more scrupulously accurate than those pre-
decessors. He concluded by apologising for having so long
detained their Lordships upon a subject, which, however
important to the service of the State, was exceeding dry and
tedious in its details.

Lord IVIONTEAGLE disclaimed any idea of casting any
imputation upon Sir J. Newport, to whom, from his childhood,
he had been bound by the deepest personal and political obli-
gations.—( Hear, hear.) He might have overrated the impor.
tance of his new guards against fraud, but at all events, he had
introduced them for the good of the public service. He was
satisfied that Sir J. Newport could never be induced to sup-
pose that it ever entered into his (Lord blonteagle's),brain,
to say one word, in the moat remote degree reflecting upon him.
Lord BROUGHAM explained.
The Duke of WELLINGTON was understood to say that
the Commissioners, he was sure, intended to make no charge
against any individual. The Noble Lord had brought forward
this motion for his own justification, that the matter might
be sifted to the bottom and that it might be seen whether
any blame attached to the head of the office. He (the Duke
of Wellington) did not know that any blame ever had been
attached to his Noble Friend.--( Hear, hear.) He thought it
would be better to postpone this motion for inquiry till some
step should be taken in the other House of Parliament, and
some steps should be taken by the Government nn the subject.
The Noble Lord approved of the measures adopted by the Go-
vernment on the subject.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord
wished for an inquiry into the manner in which matters
had been conducted in his (the Noble Lord's office).
He, (the Duke of Wellington) did not knew whether
it were possible to make any amendment in this House. But
if the Noble Lord had put upon paper what he wished to have
done, he (the Duke of Wellington) would speak to others, and
would, by Monday, obtain a distinct answer to the .Noble
Lord's idea.—( Hear, hear.) It appeared that tli is transaction
had been carried on since the month of April, 1836, and that
some persons were supposed to have a guilty knowledge of it,
and though there were no doubt some innocent sufferers, yet
there, no doubt, were many who took these bills well aware
that they were net legal documents. It was, therefore, abso-
lutely necessary that a rigid investigation on the subject should
take place, to protect the fair holders and uphold the character
of these papers in future. Under these circumstances, he
trusted their Lordships would approve of the measure
when it should come before them.—(Hear, hear.)
In the mean time the House should take no steps, and pledge
themselves to nothing. He had read the Report of the Com-
missioners' and he would say that it made no charge against
the Nob% Lord, or against the office ; though he would say
that he thought some of the machinery of the office had not
been wisely made. But he would reserve his opinion until
the case of the holders was decided, then he would assist in
having those points remedied, and preventing similar evils from
happening in future. At present he hoped the Noble Lord
would withdraw his motion, and if he would mention his wish to-
morrow, he the Noble Duke would see what was to be done..
He thought that as doubts had existed they ought to be re.
moved by a judicial inquiry. With these observations he
begged him to withdraw the motion.
The motion was then withdrawn.
The House then Adjourned at ten minutes past Eight
o'Clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, MARCH 4.
The SPEAKER took the Chair shortly before Four
o'Clock.

On the motion of Mr. W. MILES, the Weston-super-
Mare Improvement Bill was read a second time, and or-
dered to be committed, after a few words from Mr. IL
Berkeley.

Mr. 'CRAVEN BERKELEY presented a petition
against the Severn-Navigation Bill.
The'Boston Harbour Bill was read a second time and
ordered to be committed.
On the motion of Mr. DENNISTOUN the Edinburgh
and Glasgow Railway Bill was read a second time, and
ordered to be committed.

Mr. PHILPOT presented a petition from a parish is
Gloucester against the Severn Navigation Bill.
The Cheltenham and Great -Western Railway Com-
panies' Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be
committed,

On the motion of Sir B. HALL, the St. Pancras Im-
provement Bill was read a second time, and ordered to
be committed. On the motion of the same Hon. Member,
the Duke of Bedford's Estate Bill was read a second
time, and ordered to be committed. The Hon. Member
also presented a petition against the Stanhope and Tyne
Railway Rill,
Mr. TATTON EGERTON presented a petition from
certain individuals, complaining that the promoters of
the Bolton Railway Bill had not complied with the stand-
ing orders. The petition was ordered to be referred to the
select committee. The Hon. Member also presented a
petitivi against the Staleybridge Gas Bill.
On the motion of Lord ELIOT, the St. Austle's Mar-
ket Bill was read a second time.

Sir ROBERT INGLIS brought up the Second Report
of the Committee on Public Petitions.

Mr. HUTT presented a petition against the Stockton
and Hartlepool Railway Bill, which was referred to the
select committee.

C ORN-LAWS.

TetitiOns against the Corn-laws were presented from the
following places;—Manchester, (5), by Mr. Marsland;
ditto, (5), by• Mr. Busfield; Christchurch, Marylebone,
Hemel Hempsted, and several other places, by Lord Dun-
can; Chorlton-on-Medlock, and three other places, by Mr.
11. Berkeley; Manchester (5) by Mr. C. Berkeley; five by
Mr. G. Duncan; and Edinburgh. (6) by Mr. Denuistoini.
Mr, TRIPP presented a petition from the millers of
Gloucestershire, praying that in any alteration of the
Corn-laws, flour might be equally protected with wheat:
Colonel CONOLLY presented a petition from th
elders of Little Kay, praying for a repeal of the Act
Anne, commonly called the Patronage Att,
The HoN. and GALLANT AllintlBll, also presented a
petition from Donegal, praying for a prospective law
authorising Presbyterian mixed marriages.
Mr. YOUNG presented a petition from Monaghan,
praying for a law legalising Presbyterian Mixed Mar-
tlages.
The HON. lgEittnEn also presented a petition praying
the total repeal of the Corn-laws.
Sir V. BLAKE resented a petition praying for a
total repeal of the Corn-laws.
Sir IL B. PHILLIPPS presented a petition from
St. Davids, with a similar prayer.
Sir DAVID ROCHE presented a petition from the
millers of Limerick, complaining that the law which
prevented the importation of foreign flour was to be
altered and would interfere with them ; also a petition
f'►om victuallers of Limerick, stating that 11 the Act of
Union, they were placed upon the same footing with the
victuallers in this country,. and complaining of the late
legislation of the House on the subject.
Mr. AINSWORTII presented a petition from the in-
habitants of Bolton, asking to be heard before the Com-
mittee on the Borough Improvement Bill.
Mr. HUTT presented a petition from Forfar praying
that the bonding of flour may be substituted for that
of corn.

Mr. O'CIONN-ELL prebented a petition from War-
rinKton, 4n Lancashire, for a repeal of the Union.
Sir J. EASTHOPE presented petitions from Forfar,
Lincoln's Inn-fields, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Salford, and
several other places, against the Corn-laws.
Mr. MACAULAY presented two petitions, one of
which was from Edinburgh, against the Corn-laws.
Mr, M. PHILIPS presented several petitions from
Manchester to the same effect.

On the motion of Lord MAHON the Copyright Bill
was read a first time, and ordered to be printed.
Mr. DUNCOMBE presented a petition from the
Easingwold Union, in the North Riding of the county
of York, praying the House to alter the Poor-law, so as
to give greater discretionary power to the guardians in
the matter of granting out-door relief.
The SPEAKER announced to the House that he had
been informed by the examiners of recognizances that
the two sureties of 5001. each, for the prosecution of the
Dublin Election, were unobjectionable.
Lord G, SOMERSET presented a petition from the
merchants and shipowners of Newport in the county of
Monmouth, in favour of the Severn Navigation Bill.
Mr. THORNELY preserted one petition from Kircud-
bright, and five from the working men of the Metropolis,
praying for the total and immediate repeal of the Corn-
laws.

Mr. ELPHINSTONE presented a petition from Man-
chester with the same prayer.
Mr. COBDEN presented similar petitions from the
working men of Stockport, from the Magistrates of
Dunfermline, from places in the county of Northumber-
land, and from Manchester.
IMPORTATION OF CORN FROM AMERICA.
Sir R. PEEL said, that he wished to inform the- Gal-
lant Officer opposite (Sir C. Napier), whom he then
saw in his place, that he had made inquiries relative to
the length of time occupied by vessels in voyages from
the United States of America to Liverpool. He found I
that there Was no means of obtaining direct official

information on the subject through the Custom House.
He had, however, received a statement on the matter
from the Ameridan Consul at Liverpool, which he would
then lay upon the table of the House. It was an ac-
count of the average number of dais occupied in voyages
from the several ports of the United States to the port
of Liverpool by all vessels laden with flour or corn
during the year 1841.
Sir C. NAPIER said that he had no wish that the
Right Hon. Gentleman should have gone to the Ameri-
can Consul for the information in question ; and he was
sorry to find that the accounts were kept in so slovenly
a manner at the Packet-office. If, however, the Right
Honourable Baronet were satisfied with the information
given by the American Consul he (Sir C. Napier) should
also be satisfied.
Sir R. PEEL said that the Gallant Officer could take
what course he pleased upon the matter.
Sir C. NAPIER then moved for a return of the num-
ber of vessels laden with corn which had arrived from
America, from the Ist of January, 1841, to the
the port of Liverpool;
a
number of days occupied in
Istnd of January,
aratn return
the a t
each voyage.
Sir R. PEEL then laid upon the table the account
, to which he had already
from the American Consul
Sir C. NAPIER said that the paper gave a return
both of vessels laden with corn and flour, while he only
wanted the number of vessels laden with corn.
Sir R. PEEL said that the statement, which he made
on a former occasion, related to a vessel laden with 1,000
barrels of flour.
NOTICES OF MOTIONS.

Mr. FERRAND gave notice that on Tuesday next,
when the Honourable Member for Salford should move
for the returns of the names of individuals or firms
mills, who paid the wages to
s instead of money, or
who supplied their provisions upon the truck system,
ktheeerrin glacboott4urners flax
in
he should move that the following words be added—
, or soilokd
g
" returns of the names of manufactures of printed works,
or proprietors of coal works or iron works ;" and also
after the word " truck system," he would move the fol-
lowin c, words—" A return of the names of all such own-
ers of cotton, flax, silk, or printed works, mills, or iron
or coal works, who compelled their workmen to reside in
cottages, the property of their employers."
Mr. WODEIIOUSE gave notice of a motion for a
return of the names and salaries of the Commissioners
who had been at various times appointed to inquire into
the hand-loom system.
Sir G. STAUNTON gave notice that, on Monday
next, he should move for all communications received
from Captain Elliot relative to the affairs of Canton,
and our relations with China. _ _

Mr. O'CONNELL gave notice, that on Monday next,
on the Order of the Day for a Committee of Supply
being read, he should move for a return of the names of
all persons who had registered arms in the county of Down,
in Ireland. He would also take the opportunity of putting
a question to the Noble Lord opposite (Lord Elliot)
respecting the trial of parties who were tried for the
murder of a person of the name of M'Ardle.
Sir V. BLAKE gave notice that before the passing of
the new Corn-law Act he would move that, in conse-
quence of the unusual depression of the trade of the
country, a clause should be inserted suspending the pay-
ment of all duties upon corn until January 1, 1843.
Mr. ELPHINSTONE gave notice that on Tuesday
next he should move for certain returns relating to the
legacy duty, in continuation of the papers laid before
Parliament last year.
Colonel SIBTHORP gave notice, that in the Com-
mittee on the Bill for the Importation of Foreign Corn,
he should move that all duties payable on the importa-
tion of corn or wheat flour, after the passing of the Act,
should be levied and paid at the period of the importa-
tion of such corn, instead of at the time of its being
taken out of bond.

Mr. STAUNTON moved for certain returns relating
to the issuing of letters of marque against China (as we
understood) which were ordered.
Mr. F. FRENCH, in moving for certain returns re-
lating to the sums levied on the different counties for
the improvement of the River Shannon, gave notice that
on an early day he should move that the Commision for
the improvement of the river Shannon be abolished. The
Honourable Member also moved for certain returns,
relating to vaccination in Ireland, which were ordered.
Mr. SHIEL postponed to Thursday, the motion of
which he had given notice, relative to the production
of the communications between the Earl of Aberdeen
and the French Ambassador, on the subject of the French
occupation of Algiers.
PORTENDIC. _ _ _

Mr. SMYTHE wished to ask the Right Hon. Baronet
at the head of the Government, if he was prepared to
state to the House the progress which had been made in
the negotiations with the French Government, for the
purpose of obtaining for certain British subjects com-
pensation for the losses they had suffered in consequence
of the conduct of the French authorities at Portendic.

Sir ROBERT PEEL begged to state that
some time since, as long ago he believed as
April, 1840, a Commission had been appointed
consisting of Commissioners appointed by the Govern-
ment of both countries, for the purpose of inquiring
into, the merits of the respective claimants. The sit-
tings of that Commission had been interrupted from va-
rious circumstances, but very recently the English Com-
missioner had returned' to Paris, and the Commission
had resumed its sittings, which he had every reason to
believe would soon be brought to a satisfactory termi-
nation. Should anything, however, occur to frustrate
the hopes which he entertained on the subject, he would
take an early opportunity of giving the House informa-
tion on the subject.
CORN-LAW S.

Mr. M. GIBSON begged to ask the ;Right Hon.
Baronet opposite whether he was aware of any commu-
nications on the part of certain dignitaries and clergy-
men of the Established Church, having taken place with
any member of her Majesty's Government relative to the
new system of taking the corn averages, and the effect it
may have upon the title rent charged, and also, whether
they would adhere to the proposed system of taking them.
Sir R. PEEL said that of course he received nume-
rous letters every day upon the subject of the Corn-
laws, but he was not aware that he received any such
formal communications as the Hon. Gentleman had al-
luded to.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that he wished to ask
a question of the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Vice-Pre-
sident of the Board of Trade with respect to the new towns
for taking the averages. , He had heard that in particular
counties, towns, which had corn markets, were left out
of the new list and ethers put in. He did not mean to
say that any partiality in selecting certain towns was in-
tended, but he wished to know if any a statement could
be made respecting the change of particular towns, and
why others had been selected.
Sir ROBERT PEEL said that he would answer the
Noble Lord After he had brought in the Corn Importation
Bill. The Right Hon. Gentleman then brought in the
Bill, which was read a first time.
Sir R. PEEL said that he would take that opportu-
nity to answer the question of the Noble Lord. The
Bill was drawn up in conformity with the resolutions
It was drawn up in general conformity with the expla-
nation he gave on the part of her Majesty's Govern-
ment, on moving for leave to bring in the Bill. There
were one or two points on which he wished to make a
statement tit the HOtise. The first was with respect to
-the inspectors. He received coninitinietttions from
them, and from persons interested on their behalf,
with respect to the hardship of removing then,
and that their removal would give grounds for claims to
compensation which lie wished to amid. He proposed
that the averages in the new towns should be taken by
the Excise officers, and placed under the Board of Ex-
cise ; but with respect to the towns that were not
enteredi he proposed that the present inspectors should
be continued, a they Were perfeetly efficient ; and
that they should be placed under the Board of Trade.
He (Sir R. Peel) proposed to give the Treasury, acting hi
concurrence with the Board of Trade, the power of
granting superannuated salaries to those inspectors who
may, be removed from office, and who, for a length of
service, and propriety of conduct in the discharge of
their duties might be entitled to retiring allowances.
The whole duty would be performed by the Excise, with-
out any, or scarcely. any
.additional expense to the public.
With regard to the period when it was proposed that
the Bill should come into operation, as it was intended
to give an immediate remission of duty, it appeared to him
(Sir R. Peel) that it would be desirable that as soon as
the Bill obtained the assent of the Legislature, that it
should come info operation as soon as possible, he would
like to permit the duties substituted by the Bill, for the
existing duties to be in operation as soon as
possible ; the Bill, therefore, on its passing, would
come into operation immediately,—(Hear.) With re-
spect to the other question put by the Noble Lord
his (Sir R. Peel's) object was, as he had already stated,
that the places from which the returns should be taken
should be as extensive as possible, with a view in tha first
instance to obtain more accurate information
of the quantity of corn sold, and the prices
of those different towns. But in taking those
averages in these towns, he had no wish whatever
to add these towns for the purpose of diminishing the
price of corn,' and raising the duty. The Noble L9rd
asked upon what principle those towns were selected. ?
He (Sir It. Peel) found it was exceedingly difficult to
ascertain what was the relative importations of thus!, towns,
or or what was the quantity of corn
501 d
in
them, but
this
revision of the list of towns Was conducte uopneon
principle, which appeared to At
in which the
Present there were about 150 or 151 towns
averages were taken by menus of inspectors ;
him to be a fair
of course
th on tleiatatlitis,,,
there was a certain number of
proportion
cultural, manufacturing, and
which bore a relative Mto
propor—
commercial towns.
In the selection of the towns &inflected with the rural
and agricultural districts, he had attempted to maintain
the same ratio in the new towns, with respect
to the proportion of agricultural to manufac•
turing towns, as was observed in the existing
list. That was the general
principle on which he had
attempted to proceed. The Noble Lord would have an
opportunity of seeing the list, and if it could be shown
that there were towns, with respect to which Gentlemen
were in the possession of information .which he
had'not
had the means of procuring ; and if it should be found
that some errors existed, he couldonly state that ha
e had
r to col list
taken all the means in his pr oe lect
of those towns which were most important for this pur-
pose. If any errors should be found, those errors would
be a fit subject for discussion. He must, of course, neces-
sarily submit himself to the pleasure of the House, but after
the sense of the. House had been marked on the ques-
tion, he should proceed with the measure as ra-
pidly as was consistent with a due delibaration
of the details and principle of the Bill. Ile proposed,
therefore, to fix Monday next for proceeding with
it, and if on Monday other business should prevent its
due consideration, he should- not bring it on at, any
hour which would be unsuitable to the discussion.
If the sense of the House should be decidedly in favour
of the improvement of the existing laws, he should do
411 in his power to bring the Diu WO as early operation

as possible, without at the same time
.pressing it unduly
agair.st the sense of those who might wish to take
part in the discussion. With the understandieg then
that on Monday next, if the business of supply should
occupy the House to an inconvenient hour, he should
take the earliest opportunity afterwards for the second
reading.
Mr. COBDEN claimed the indulgence of the House
in a matter personal to himself. It would be in the re-
collection of the House that, a week ago, an Hon. Member
had stated some facts personally relating to him ; it was
stated that while he was complaining of the operation of
the Corn -laws, he was working his,mills night and day,
by which cruel means he had amassed a large fortune.
The facts not being then within his knowledge, he
did not think proper to answer this statement ; but
he had since written into the country for information to
enable him to meet the charge, and he might first mention
that the concern in which he was interested, employed
600 people, and during the last 18 months it had be en
employing by night ten men, from the 31st of July to
the 4th of September. During that interval they
had employed ten men by night, in casual
work of finishing and dressing. Now, the charge of
cruelty to himself must necessarily mean that the same
hands were employed. He would, therefore, be allowed
by the House to explain that they had furnished
work by night to hands who were out of work
and who would have had nothing else to do, if they
had not employed them. He read an extract of a let-
ter that he had received on the subject, stating
that they " only wished they could employ 600 extra
hands, for if they wanted 5,000 they could get as many
very glad to get work, for the men had never
been so badly off." Now he might mention, with re-
gard to the cotton printing business, as the House did not
, seem to have a very clear knowledge of the distinction be-
tween a cotton mill and a print work, that cotton printing
was something like paper printing,—it had its seasons,
and to prevent a cotton printer from occasionally employ-
ing half a score men at night, in particular seasons,would
be like interdicting the printing of magazines, which were
required once a month, as of newspapers, or any other
kind of publications.—(Hear, hear.) He mentioned this
in order that Hon. Gentlemen might know that there
was a distinction between a cotton printing work and a
spinning mill. He hoped that the two had
not been confounded, from a desire of fixing upon him
that peculiar odium which seemed to be attached to the
cotton mill. Between a cotton mill and a printing
mill, there was, in fact, no more analogy, than between
a cotton mill and that House. He (Mr. Cobden) had
not an atom of mill-work belonging to his establish-
ment. The Hon. Gentleman opposite had made a
sweeping charge against the Anti-Corn-law League,
stating that the manufacturers who belonged to that
body paid their wages upon the truck system. Now
that, as a violation of the law, or at best, an evasion of
the law, was a very serious charge ; and as he was proud
to avow himself a very conspicious member of the
Anti-Corn-law League, he hoped he might be allowed
to state, as far as he was acquainted with the case,
how far that charge was deserved.—(Hear, hear.)
"Of course you are aware," said the letter
which he had received that morning, "that our
wages are paid every Saturday morning, and our
rule is that every person in the works shall
be paid by eight o'clock in the morning, so that
they can lay out their money to the best ad-
vantage when and where they pleased."—(Cheers.)
Now nothing could possibly be more futile than for a
person like himself to stand up there and to disclaim the
truck system, if he practised it ; for he assured them that
the shopkeepers in the neighbourhood of _ any large
establishment were exceedingly jealous, and very acute
in perceiving who were the parties that paid money and
who were not. He therefore begged to say, in answer
to the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, that he had
paid 20,000/. a year for wages for the last ten
years, and that he had never either directly or indirectly
been concerned in keeping any shop about the establiah-
ment ; every farthing had been paid in money.—
(Loud cheers.) That fact was notorious to every
one in the neighbourhood of the establishment to
which he belonged.—(Hear.) And now he must be al-
lowed to state, in answer to the Hon. Gentleman oppo-
site, that when he made that charge so broadly,
without excepting himself, he was aware at, the time, for
an Honourable Gentleman opposed to him in
politics, who lived near to his establishment, had told
him, that as far as he (Mr. Cobden) was concerned, that
charge was not true ; and he called upon the Hon.
Member for Wigan, though an opponent in politics,
to state whether every word which he now uttered
was not the truth—(Hear, hear, hear)—and now, as
he had said a week ago, he repeated that he, consi-
dered this to be a very undignified occupation,
firthem ; and he might be allowed to state, that in fu-
ture he hoped he should not be expected to come forth
and occupy the time of the House refuting charges
of that kind from the same quarter.—(Hear.)
If any Hon. Gentleman should condescend to take the
slightest interest in his personal character, he would
refer him to his neighbours and to his work-
people ; he would refer him directly to them,
and if any Honourable Gentleman in that
House, or out of it, should take upon himself to
speak as to his character, he only wished him to carry
out towards ' him the golden rule, of " doing unto
others as they would have others do unto them,"
by first making inquiries as to his character in his own
neighbourhood.—(Cheers.) Now, before sitting down,
he might be allowed to state that an Hon. Gentleman in
that House had been entrusted with a number of
declarations from a large body of individuals in Lanca-
shire, who had requested him to lay before that House a
distinct denial of the charges so broadly made against the
members of the Anti-Corn-law League.—(Hear.)
Mr. VILLIERS wished to make a few observations,
as he was entrusted with a statement from several manu-
facturers, members of the Anti-Corn-law League. The
House would remember the cireumstances under which the
charge was made against the manufacturers, by the
Hon. Member for Knaresborough. He made
certain charges against the manufacturers gene-
rally, and afterwards he qualified those charges
by stating that he meant them to apply to the manufac-
turers of England, members of the corn-law League.
The nature of those charges had become matter
of notoriety. Those charges were of a most serious
character. It was right that those charges should
be sifted to the bottom ; and as he had a state-
ment, utterly denying the whole of those charges,
on the behalf of a great number of manufacturers,
members of the Corn-law League, he felt bound shortly
to bring them before the House.—(Hear, hear.) The
charge made by the Hon. Member for naresborough
was that the manufacturers in his neighbourhood could
not compete with the Anti-Corn-law League manufac-
turers, because it was their practice to pay
their men in goods and not in money.
It was true that money was given them, but the whole
of that money was taken from them by the
servants of those for whom they worked for
the payment of clothing and the necessaries of life. He
also said, that it was a_notorious fact that the master
manufacturers cleared 25 per cent. upon goods
that they sold to their workmen. Now, that
statement having been submitted to a great
number of master manufacturers connected with the
League, they had in a deliberate manner drawn
up a formal denial, in which they repudiated the whole
of the charges contained in the speech of the Hon. Mem-
ber for Knaresborough, as far as they were concerned.
They stated that they were utterly destitute of truth ;
that they kept no truck shops; and that they paid their
workmen in no other way than in the current coin
of the realm. This declaration was signed by the
following manufacturers belonging to the Anti-Corn-law
League
John Brooks, for Butterworth and Brooks, High-street, Man.
shelter, Sonnyside, and Bolton.
Thornton Brothers and Sons, Mosley-street, Manchester.
Simpson, postrow and Co., Mosley-street, Manchester.
Astrewry, Critchley, and Co., George-street, Manchester.

Callender, Bickharn, and Co., Mosley-street, Manchester.

I'. Novell', $5, Booth-street.
Geo. Schuster, 52, Spring-gardens.
Leese, Kershaw, and Co., High-street, Manchester,
Eccles Shorrock, Blackburn.
Samuel Lees, Manchester.

Oxon and Walsh, manufacturers, Stockport and Manchester.

Fort Brothers and Co., oalico.printers, Manchester.

Jno. Barrett and Sons, manufacturers, Manchester.

E. Armitage and Son, Bank-buildings, Manchester.

James Carlton, Mosley-street, Manchester.

John Burd and Son, Mosley.street, Manchester,

Joseph Raleigh and Co., Market-street.
Samuel Matley and Son, 15, New High-street.

Ryland and gone, 11, New High.street.

Johp and Robert Ashton, Hyde and Manchester.
Tennants, Clon, and Co., Manchester and Liverpool.
Edmund Potter and Co., calico.printers, Manchester.

P. J. Willem merchant, Booth.street, Manchester.
Wood and Wright, calico-printers, Manchester.
Honfleld, Filder, and W. Knivett, calico-printers, Manchester.

J. and B. Pearson, Manchester.
Thomas Broadbent and Co., Manchester.
H. and E. Ashworth, Bolton.

Jacob Bright and Sons, Rochdale.
George Cheetham and Sons, per ThOmas Walker, 43, Spring-gar.
dens, Manchester.
J. B. Rayner and Brothers,
18, Strutt-street, Manchester.
Thomas Iteyner and Sons, ,
J. and S. Alcoa, d, Milk.street, Manchester.
Joseph Smith, Grafter, 14, Mosley-street, Manchester.
George Millington. 9, Faulkner-street.
Gibb, Gray, and. Gibb. 29; Mosley.street.
Willta Bayley. and Brothers, 34, Mosley-street.

James Burt and Son, 16, David-street.
Schunck, Souch ay, and Co„ 21, Cooper-street.
Robert Charlton and Sons, Blackfriars.
Ann Remard and Nephew, 22, Bond• street.
Henry Bollard, 41, Mosley-street.

John Mayon and Co., 17, Newmarket-buildings.
Geotga Earnshaw and Co., 17, ditto.
C. P, Henderson, 23, George-street.

Du Fay and Co., 32 and 34, Booth.atreet,
Sesatant and Co., 10, Sounding.alley.
Gardner CHI Baxley.

Samuel Bowers, a 4, Spring-gardens.

George Woolley and Son, Bridgewater.place.

.1. /L Barnes and Sons, Farnworth Cotton-mills,
Harvey, Tyson, and Co., Salford.

Smith and Downtw, Marsden-square.
Samuel Mitchell, High-street, Manchester,
S. A. Butterworth and Co., Hoyle-street.

Hyde, Sons, and Sowerby, Dukinfield.
The following parties signed their names on the single printed
copies of the declaration:—

John and Nathl. Philips and Co., Manchester.
John Slagg and Co., Manchester.
John Munn and Co., Manchester.
Andrew Hall, Manchester.

Samuel Brewis, Manchester.
Trustees of Billington and Ashton.

James Knott and Son, Ashton-under-Lyne.
Chadwick and Ashworth, Manchester.
Matthew Binns, Manchester.

Samuel Higginhottom and Sona, Aehton.under.Lyne.
Aspinall and Cross, Manchester.
William Richardson and Sons, Manchester and Lilly.hill.

James Chadwick, Manchester.
Samuel Malley and Son, Manchester, &c.
Langworthy Brothers, and Co., Manchester.
Roberts and Walton, Manchester and Burnley.
Nelson, Knowles, and Co., Tottington, near Bury.
lie thought after this that the House would feel satisfied

that the Hon. Gentleman opposite ought to enter into
some explanation on the subject.
Mr. FERRAND would 'first reply to the Hon. Mem-
ber for Stockport. He did not charge him with cruelty
to his workmen.—(Cries of " Oh, oh.") As far as he re-
collected, he said, that the lion. Member for Stockport
had worked his mills both day and night. He never
used such an expression as abominable cruelty.—
(Cries of " Oh, oh.") The Honourable Member
had said that he (Mr. Ferrand) had charged him with
adopting the truck system. He could assure the House
that he had never done .so. If it had been
his intention so to have done, he shoulo
have plainly told him so in his presence.
It was true that the Hon. Member, to whom reference had
been made, had told him that the Hon. Member for Stock-
port had not been' guilty of adopting the truck sys-
tem, but paid his men in money.—(Hear, hear.)
He hoped he had now stated sufficient to satisfy
the House, and the Honourable Member for Stockport
in that respect. With regard to what had fallen
from the Honourable Member for Wolverhampton,
he was prepared to prove by credible witnesses
that a great number of members of the Anti-Corn-
law League had paid their workmen wages in goods.
He did not say all.( Hear.) He never used the word " all"
at all—( Cheers and laughter)—and he again asserted that he
was prepared to, prove, on the oaths of clergymen, of gentlemen
of the highest respectability and station, of manufacturers, of
tradespeople, of working people, who had given him their
names since he had brought the question before a Com-
mittee of that House, every assertion that he had made
the other evening on the subject—( Cheers)—and there
was an Hon. Member on the other side the House who had
said that he was prepared to prove every word that 111 (Mr.
Ferrand) had said, and ten times more.
Mr. VILLIERS said that the Hon. Gentleman had said
that the explanation was only a miserable quibble. Ile (Mr.
Villiers) contended that the Hon. Gentleman did charge all
the Members of the Anti-Corn-law League.—(Cries of
" Order," " order," " chair," " chair.")
The CHANCELLOR of EXCHEQUER rose to order.
When any Hon. Member disclaimed having uttered any words
which were imputed to him by another Hon. Member, it was
decidedly out of order for a Hon. Member to get up, as the
Hon. Member for Wolverhampton had done, and declare that
the Hon. Member had uttered the words he disclaimed. Such
a mode of proceeding was not at all in accordance with the
usage of Parliament.
Mr. VILLIERS again rose, but was met by loud cries of
" Chair, chair," " Order order," in the midst of which the
Hon. Member resumed his seat.
Mr. LABOUCHERE rose to order. He did not under-
stand his Hon. Friend to say that the Hon. Gentleman had
charged all the manufacturers.—(Cries of " Yes, yes," and
" Order, order.) He understood his Hon. Friend to say that
the Hon. Member for Knaresborough had said that the bulk
of the members of the Anti-Corn-law League were in the
habit of paying their workmen their wages on the truck system.
Mr. VILLIERS again rose, but was again met by loud
cries of " Order, order." He hoped the House would allow
him to explain what had taken place. He had made a mis-
take, and had apprehended that the Hon. Member for Knares-
borough had charged all the manufacturers in the manner al-
luded to ; and he (Mr. Villiers) had so stated in big reply. He
was met by criestof " No, no," and he (Mr. Villiers) then said
the Hon. Gentleman then limits his charge to the manufac-
turers constituting the Association called the Anti-Corn-law
League. The Hon. Member for Knaresborough touched his
hat, and said " Decidedly." He (Mr. Villiers) did not say
that the Hon. Gentleman said the word " all," but he had in-
cluded in his charge every member connected with the Anti-
Corn-law League.—( Cheers, and cries of " Order, order.")
The SPEAKER said that after an Hon. Member had given
a positive denial of words imputed to him, it was decidedly out
of order in any Hon. Member to contend, atter such a dis-
claimer, that the Hon. Member had made such a statement.

Mr. VILLIERS was willing to say that he had misappre-
hended the Hon. Member, and was ready to receive his ex-
planation, which he understood to be, that he did not intend
to allude to all the members of the Anti-Corn-law League, but
only to some individuals of that body.—(Loud cheers from the
Opposition.)
Sir B. HALL wished to ask a question of the Hon. Member
for Salford and the Hon. Member for Knaresborough. The
Hon. Member for Salford had given notice of a motion for
Tuesday next on the subject of the truck system, for returns
of the districts in which the truck system was pursued by ma-
nufacturers in paying the wages of their workmen ; and the
Hon. Member for Knaresborough had given notice for an
amendment, extending the motion to other parts of the coun-
try, particularly to the mining districts. He wished to know
whether the Hon. Gentleman wished, if the motion was
granted, or if the returns could not be made out, to call the at-
tention of the House to the necessity of legislating on the sub-
jeet. There were some parts of the kingdom in which the
system prevailed to a great extent. After the statements which
had been made to the House, it was impossible for them to allow
the matter to rest, and he thought the most efficient way of
putting stop to the system would be by making public all the
which could be obtained regarding it. He consi-
information rhi
dered that a mom' effectual way of putting a stop to it than the
introduction of a legislativeenactment.
Mr. BROTHERTOI .§aid that the motion of which he had
N
given notice related to cotter , silk, woollen, or flax mills;
„, cause by an Act of
and he had so worded his motion,
Par-
liament inspectors were appointed whycould furnish the in-
formation in question. He had not asked to. returns relative
to printed works, or to iron and coal works, because these did
not come within the province of the Inspectors of Factojes, and
he did not see how these. returns could be obtained. His
object was to ascertain the extent of the truck system, but, not
from any belief that that system was practised in cotton or
other mills. The Right Hon. Gentleman opposite ( Hr.
Ferrand) might move for separate returns, aecerding to the
terms of his notice, if he thought proper to de so; but his
(Mr. Brotherton's) motion motion might be defeated if the
Hon. Gentleman coupled his notice with it. inasmuch as the
information relative to printed works could not be obtained
through the Factory Inspectors.
Lord J. RUSSELL wished to observe before the subject
was dropped, that he thought it of the utmost importance that
the House should agree as to the manner in which the accusa-
tions brought by the Hon. Member opposite (Mr. Ferrand
should be investigated.—( Hear, hear.) He certainly had
not understood the Honourable Gentlemen 'to have
brought forward allegations against the manufacturers generally;
but he had understood that the accusation was made with the
explanation that though it did not apply to all the manufac-
turers of England, it applied to those: manufacturers only who
were connected with the Anti-Corn-law League.—(Loud
cries of "Hear, hear," (la the Opposition benches, in the
midst of which we understood Mr. Ferrand to adopt, by nod-
ding his assent, the interpretation of the Noble Lord. ) Cer-
tainly the impression with which he (Lord J. Russell) had
gone away, although the exact words were not used was that
the great bulk, the great majority of the manufacturers be-
longing to the Corn-law. League were guilty in the first place
of fraudulent practices With regard to their manufactures ;
and, secondly, that they cheated their workmen by selling
their goods which were worth 25 per cent. less than they
charged. It would appear, if he understood rightly the Hon.
Gentleman's explanation, that what he meant was only that
some of the manufacturers belonging to the Anti-Corn-law
League had been guilty of the practices, and that to that extent,
he was ready to prove his charge. That was not certainly any
contradiction tf what had been read by the Hon. Member for
Salford. There might, no doubt, be manufacturers belonging
to the Anti-Corn-law League guilty of such practices, and
there might also be manufacturers very much in favour f the
Corn-laws, who had been guilty of similar practices.—
(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) There might be charges
quite as serious brought against many farmers—they might
find out cases of farmers who paid their workmen the
scantiest wages, and who acted very oppressively in their
mode of paying those wages. But what was to be avoided as
much as possible was that charges of this kind should be
brought in such a manner as to proiuce an impression that
the great body of our countrymen engaged. whether in ma-
nufactures or in agriculture, were guilty of these fraudulent
practices.—(Loud cries of "Hear, hear," from the Opposition
benches.) He much regretted that the Hon. Gentleman, if
he meant to make an accusation so limited and so confined,
did not express himself in such a manner as not to be mis-
understood; and the more so, because those who listened
to him came to such rapid and instantaneous conclusions
against all the manufacturers.—(Cheers, and cries of "No,
no," from Mr. Ferrand). If the Hon. Gentleman had any
further explanation to give, or meant to bring forward those
charges again, he believed there was no doubt of his having an
opportuity of doing so.—(Hear, hear.) He must say that
for his part he heard with pain the speech of the
Hon. Gentleman, and he must say likewise that he had seen
with great pain charges made in many of the speeches, not of
persons in that House, but of persons connectej with the Anti..
Corn-law League, against those who maintainer; the present
Corn-laws, as if those persons had been animated by. a desire
to ruin and destroy the great increase of the manufacture...
( Hear, hear.) There may have been a bias on both sides,
and personal interests might have influenced both parties, but
that there was any part of 'their fellow-countrymen so sordid
and wedded to their own interests as for these reasons to main-
tain the Corn-laws ; or that there was any party which, for the
same reasons wish to alter them, he (Lord J. Russell) did not
believe ; he thought the charges unfounded in themselves, and
that they ought not to be made.—(Loud and long cheering. )
With respect to the motion of the Right Hon. Gentleman
he must say, from several communications he had with other
gentlemen, it was their intention to take a debate on the prin-
ciple of the measure, as to whether it was a good settlement
of the question as regarded the Corn-laws or not. That being
the case, if the question is brought forward on Monday next,
it was the intention of his (the Opposition) side of the House
to take a debate, and divide on the question : because, if it
came after the estimates, it was impossible it would have any
effect. He thought it right to let them know that it was their
intention to take the sense of the House on the subject.
Mr. FERR AND said, he wished to state that he had as-
serted that frauds had been carried on by the manufacturers to
a great and frightful extent, and that the truck system was
also adopted to an alarming extent, and was increasing daily
to an amount that, as far as the poor were concerned, Gad
only knew.—(Cries of " Oh, oh.")
Mr. VILLIERS said, that he wished to make a few obser-
vations on a slight difference in the speech of the Right Hon.
Gentleman, and he begged that he might be allowed, though
contrary to the rules of that House, to read one line.—(Order. )
The SPEAKER intimated to the Hon. Gentleman that he
was out of order, and could not proceed.
Mr. M. PHILLIPS wished to ask the Right Hon. Baronet,
or the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Vice-President of the Board
of Trade, whether they were prepared to answer a statement
made with reference to the foreign cotton trade. It was
stated that the foreign trade of this country had suffered in
consequence of certain practices which had taken place in the
foreign market, from the circumstance of the particular mode
in which cotton goods had been prepared.—(A laugh.)
Sir R. PEEL could not form any opinion upon the sub-
ject. He did not see, since his appointment to office, any
representations of the description alluded to by the Hon.
Member. _ .