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London, England, 1842-04-12 00:00:00

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Lie need, when he heard the causes of the deficit,. lie rejoiced
e. •t he. for
.
- tlith • one, had not been a party to tbe national calamity,
sot s from,m year to year had male the resources of the State
sa
0.11 cient for its expenses. If he were called en to give
pawltown of the policy that had led to that deficit, a great
seat: of that pottcy he could not approve. He knew not
t,teslisla interest was lensed when we went to Syria, and
herecitn-heel there the dominion of the Turks. lie knew not what
ilase., rtgland had obtained from the blood of thousands
tee
~,Z ean dawn Mount Lebanen, and flowed, mingling ixella
pesel"_e.s of the river Jordan. Be knew not what inteetst the
eiere'ber England had in the war in the reortheteet of India;
theme !'ewme England to set a tyrant and set imbecile on the
twee, Instead of a popular ruler? It Wes stated that ten or
let
ee thousand huinen beings had been sacrificed in this war
sse7o9lcl the Right Hon. Baronet put an end to that war by
sseel!,aelfie interference? No, ten or twelve teousand more
Irk, u Probably be sacrificed, while the people of England had
tegY tlae expense. He could not understand this way of ba-
eeett:t accounts, setting injury against itsjary. wrong agairsst
lefee's' Opal murder against murder. He could not see what
vela,(s. t the people had in this war, for which millions
lie
cont 1, the
to lea wrung from a suffering people.
l'areeld not hut feel gratified to find that they were now
eseet into something like sound principles of taxotion. Ne-
tt:l"Y had come to their aid ; so completely had the Right
elete Baronet, or the Right Hun. Baronet's predecessors, ex-
that7l'dthe means of levying new revenue from the people,
eiloo it Was now necessary- to come, with no unaearing had,
elle 'erne other element of wealth. He confessed that the ar-
teneeot against a property tax—that it was only intended for a
tee :If was--produced no impression upon his mind. He del
tee::' wtsether it was a war tax or a peace tax but whether
or; , Or was not a wise and just tax. He believed that if it
tilte.29Y.itably levied, it was a tax which public opinion would
os,e_"rely support. The Right Hon. Baronet, however, had
e;e:toted his proposal with so much injustice, with so
fe ;It wrong and so much injury, that he could not
'se:, him his unqualified support.—(Hear, hear.) In his
se" the Right Hon. Baronet had been altogether misled
"he had confounded property and income; and he wan
e:rised that a man of his acuteness could have been betrayed
fee'ech an error. A property tax had very many recommen-
tee'uns; he believed that it was the wisest. the soundest, and
ce, ohast economical method far taxation. The advantage of
,ixttkut taxation was that it could be levied at a comparatively
Aerie! Coss ; the machinery, when properly managed, was at-
tex''d with little expense, wh;le the machinery of indirect
te at,on was multitudinous, vexatious, and very fregnently led
aegreat abuse. Indirect taxation exposed them to all th;.ano
tietsto and vexation of the Custom-house, and to all
Vdespotism of the Excise ; and the system of di-.
taxation would get rid of most of those evils.
Right Hon. Baronet, having introduced the wedge, would
;tabled to drive that wedge so as to afford relief to the
0 re from those indirect contributions which he believed to
eet,he source of extreme and intense suffering to the people.
there the article of coffee. He would take the value at bits. ;
e.ofie was 84s. per cwt. levied upon it. The merchant's
„1,,t t was not less than 10 per cent. By the payment of 84s.
ie.3 the merchant was obliged to put on an additional price of
le 4d- 'per cwt. The profits of the retail dealer might
A, estimated at lii per cent., and in consequence ofehe duty of
al, 'id. he put on an additional charge of 13s. 101 t to
i n there was 235. 3d. in addition to the dot- of 84s.
I'it'd-hy the State, before the coffee couldresteh that consumer.
res average price of tobacco was 4d. a pound, oh which a duty
PP,
n,'• was levied, on which the importer and retailer had their
14.7. t, as well as on the original cost, so that 259 per cent. was
oe.'ed onsthe consumers, in consequence of the system of indi-
' taxation The price of sugar was 255., on which the
elc.°,r,tr and retailer levied 6a. eni. on the consumer. In the
enle of tea,the original value was is. 9d. per pound, and the
eilr was as., on whie:n the importer and retailer had their pro
8 o an extent of 25 per cent., in consequence of the present
les'eros There were also many other articles which
see would not then enter upon, but the ones he enurne-
-1,..v,„ were sufficient to show the losses sustained
4 wltt community in consequence of the present system. With
e'Pect to the tariff, he considered it advantageous as recognis •
q!lroport ant principles, and he only wished that, together with
i, vieak, he attacked the strong monopolists..—( Hear, hear.)
`ewes grateful for what the Right lion. Baronet had done,
e'd he i • -
ti
.. on y regretted that he did not do more. He was sure
k." his (Dr. B.'s) side of the House would have supported the
1, 'Ott Hon. Baronet, and if he had done so he should have his
tiaoltle but cordial support.—(Hear, hear. )
Mrs GALLY KNIGHT said, that having seen the vehe-
Reoce with which the proposition of the Right Hon. Baronet
(11,t!-tort and combated, he could not suppress his desire, as
biped proprietor and and a county. Member, from stating
f'sentiments on the question. The Noble Lord, the tlember for
11,1 °
u44%e endeavoured to establish two points. The first Was that
eeessities of the country were net so great as had been
tilltresented. and the second that if those necessities existed,
1,1 Maid have been better removed by the measures proposed
errGovernme, than by thse which were rought forward by the
eesent nto. But whatever those necessities were,
' e:eY. were of the creation of the Noble Losd's Government, and
c.,4" country would never forget she legacy
.his Govcrnment had
47, le hind. If the matter were not notorious, he could repre-
, 4'l. it in the shape of a w•ll bequeathed by she late Govern-
sir, which he would read.—(Laughter.) Imprimis. To
la: Bons 5,900,000/. of debt. A war in China, a war with
444' at,ut an unsettled boundary with respect to America.—
te:re. hear.) That was what was left by the late Govern-
to the country34' R. PEEL—there are many codicils.—( Laughter. )
%Mr. G. KNIGHT—Yes, there were hear.)cil but he
tjateht he had gone far enough.—( Hear, They had
, Provide tneans to carry out the measures which, I- owever
aTuo eh they regretted they had been ever undertaken, it was
te w uecessary to carry out, arid of which one was p. oduceve of
(er the caleveity than any other which could be produeed in the
, leeters of England.—( at-, hear.) It appeared to him that,
k%lllt eessities of the country demanded the most rigorous ex-
"')Os on their part—necessities whi- h have been occasioned
la; the extraordinary expenditure and impolitic measures of the
tialt, Government. Taxs had been recklessly abandoned by the
* tr,, l‘linistry. When they first took office, they had said that
Tonics had tone so much that there was but little left to be
I s: in the way of repealing taxatioe, yet, Lord Althorp had,
ke:tty after that, taken off tee house lax, that tax which
tee'l otirable Gentleman opposite were anxious to reimpose,
keit when taking it 'off, Lord Althorp had said he was
eZetued of what he was doiug, but the tax was so
~ to:nstilar, that he felt forced to take of the tax. Then, with
. remt'd to the Post-office. 'Never had there been so reckless
i kbandonment orse large a resource. The Nob]: Lord had
t,Cased the Rigist Ho„ Baronet of courting popularity.
Fels he was not courting popularity by proposing what had
1.,." branded by the Gentlemen opposite with so many oppro-
„t,;:;'''''s epitheo.---( Ilene, hear.) surely he was not courting
Polarity by taking away from the great body of his supporters
u per cent. of the protection which they at ,present enjoyed.
"( Hear, hear.) The Right lion. Baronet was net legislating
`et cites interests, but for the benefit of the whole country.--
i,,.!lesar, hear.) The Noble Lord had referred to his budget of
eel Year. Now, when there was a good harvest they could
Ileit'et no revenue from a fixed duty on corn ; and, best es,
Vr, Ga'ly Knight) was convinced that they never
tie ~
-' Inainrain a fixed duty. Then, with regard to
webr duties, the change proposed last e,r
ne ~,"' hate operated most injurioualy for the Crusades, differing
lie'"`"t paint essentially front the plan now proposed. The
lhoi;ton. proposed in the Sugar Duties would have destroyed
11i0t,:"..t Indian planter by admitting slave grown sugar and
lb ~,tolated. those principles for which the nation had made
)'ecoy sacrifices, and after all that hu )get would not have
4,..-`4Nd more than 2,C00,0001., and 5,030,0001. were wanted.
ae;aa useless for the Noble Lord to try to retail his damaged
kelt'sieeted goods—he might try to sell his stinking fish, but
the "euld not be able to get it off his hands. He had not had
45 i'lltortunity of consulting his constituents on the Right
to P. Baronet's financial scheme, but he felt himself authorised
t'7lll the best judgment he could on propositions submitted
o°ornament and to vote , upon them according to
Isis eittates of his conscience. If he displeased
rei, cossetituents thus acting they had the remedy in
t4P4' Own hands when an election took place. One
see. the chief objections to the incline tax was its inquiei-
,4 But it appeared to him that no groat mischief
l'lltd iresult from the disclosure of the tae of a man's affairs
r°..., Commissioners who we sworn to secrecy ; besides. the
eaocellor of the Exchrqutlr had stated that the .:Zill should be
bt,-11.,4eed as to render the measure as little objectionable as
:'''hle. He could not see the great mischief arising from
71t'clostire wher very thing wee right ; in his own case he
' t,°tdd not irin adrift he amount of his income were published at
loarie
e-cross, because at present the income of every one was
el '""hel le the estimation of his neighbours, and he was es-
t ;etke4 to live up to their erroneous calculation; while,
4eetlt-le other ease, he would only be expected to spend
he could conveniently afford.—( Hear.) He thought
aee tariff would be a great benefit to the cenatnercial
e,-41't ansnufacturing interests, and to the people at large. He
„,o a' Perfectly aware that it would cause some capital to betaken
1:t ofone branch of enterprise and directed to another, but this
I'. 5t happen under every great change ; no monopoly could be
o,,,Zert up, no approach could be made to a more liberal policy
tet`netat some parties suffering some ieconvenienee, but the
tittle community would find themselves in another year in a
ittere advantegeous position than they were at present. !wouldiPed after the tax had been in operation, many persons
• ttsh at the expressions they had made use of with respect to
ba't'h
, ever day that the settleent of the qustion was ayed
te
o ,s distress of the manufacturing classes incereased. Thodel Noble
` ,rel, the Member for London, had talked of Members upon that
ti. de of the House having heads made of clay, but they would
t'll more deserve the reproaches of the Noble Lord if they
I;re to abandon a Government who would give them some
%;4tection and throw themselves into the arms of a party who
11,°11d deprive them of all protection. He acknovrholgod
e7l the landlords were hit very, hard by some of the
re""Posals of the Government. the price of their corn
:,Itt now be diminished ; and, again, they were hardly
(1-'t with in the article of timber, which the landed
4P e -erietors had hitherto considered as a nest-egg to meet
teY extraordinary expenses, such as the expenses of
pateele-
as74eri g f - instance.— ( A laugh. ) But for his he
, 1,-`telti bnt-t.soror' that his. was the only foot not pinched at a
k•' k 1 '"d of preying public necessity. He felt on the whole
: -4,ateful thve for the plans they had brought
se se Wa'd, and they ehoeld have his most sincere and cordial
v?Port...4 Bear, hear.)
V• ee'Nir- ELI' lIIN STONE said he wished to state the grounds
I.'l which he should vote with the Noble Lord, the Member
to e
if t the City of Loncon. He was perfectly ready to admit that
fee 'ley were devising a new system of taxation he world rote
eLa tax upon realised property. The present tax was a tax
• - j• ''')O income, upon . the hard-earned industry of she people ;
0' that be could not vote. It hat been calculated
t,3.- Air. 111‘Gregor that if they were to impose a tax of four
fo P "Rt. upon the rent of land and houses, they would derive
1141 it an income of 10,000,0001 or 12,000,000/.
.a-year ;
\\, lio 3' would thus be enabled to abelishmadny of thafmainotaxtebs,
. ~,..,- , It6l,lll're vastb expensest Tlnbecollrbutng,
Right Hon. BartLectonperrotpTsedi ' toe
5y,..,,,
t':clreal
Only 3,0e00ne,00.01. or 4.000,0001.,. and ifotheeetoilldin.twaxoomldigbhot
te better
oafs authority,oanToilions
bteh e
Reixgpbetnse
Hon. s) 11
Baronet 'proposed to
e tlte incomes of three.and of thirty years' purchase in. precisely
;41 10-nee'llne manner. If a .physician who had an income of
s'.• th eee,/. a-year went to an insurance office, he would be told
e' teat his income was not worth more than two or three years'
Ile - teeenaoe, whilst 10,0001. a-year in landed property was worth
'ri ;11Y Years • yet the Right Hon. Baronet proposed to tax both
'q,;"" same 'ratio.—(Cries of " Hear, heal.") Soveral Hon.
S te''ltlemen in the course of the discussion had attempted
Vto h '""w that the working classes of this country would benefit
` V' Y te
.k. '. Proposed tax, as though they must be benefited by
\ le, as• 4,.tetion from a tax to which others were subject ; but the
k%:# 'Ata4,;ittn classes knew that by loosening the capital with which
s ..,, the'" were paid you must inflict severe injury upon them;
Vin part keew that when you taxed their bread h 0 per cent. in one
ks
`k. h t of the scheme, they could be no gainers by your taxing
vtl/4,-: in: ether classes three irer cent.—( Hear,
_hear.) Upon look-
-4'
'.• h„] at the tariff proposed by the Right Hon. Baronet, he felt
Ne"' to 'ay that he thought it a great improvement upon the
eeetng duties ; but there was one vice which pervaded the
(It" ei it, namely, the continuance of differential duties.—
fteea,r, hear.) He thought that duties should be merely levied
the4e purposes of revenue. It was proposes! to impose a
eta , el Is. only on Canadian timber. He could not
Cml,"'e in the justice of thct proposal.—( Hear, hear.)
e het aua paid nothing towards the taxes of this country ; she did
soe. ' te .i'' en par for the troops stationed there, and it was unjust
. ' tt 'jure the op* of this country by admitting Canadian tim-
s, , 54,:iti a nominal duty. duty. It was placing Canada in a better
4
s
e TI than if she were an integral portion of the empire.
1.,47-'ll4lg to the prepesed plan, Canada wollit be better off
`ire:oresieio .
ti W. W. JAMES deprecated the continuance of these discus-
--.'
which, by.delaying the settlemot of the question, were

inflicting the di+pest injury on the trade and commerce of the
country. Many manufacturers had stopped their works until
these questions shauld ha settled, and he considered it was
now the duty of the House to think rather of,fietinfe thali
of epeaking. The plan of the Right lldn. baronet was
bold, comprehensive) end ?reit e ifeulated to attain its
object, whiele Veli to raise a sufficient revenue
:o meet the exigencies of the country. The plan proceeded
on a broad and intelligible basis. The Right Hon. Baronet
was like a skilful physician, who recommended his patient to
take exercise. to use the energies of his body, and at the same
time give him strengthening medicine. ( A laugh.) The
very objections made to the plan of the Right Hor. Baronet
seemed t-s him (Sir W. James) a ceinvineing proof that is its
main outline it Was a good measure. He had looked over
many of the public prints, to set the various different opinions
delivered on the suisject at public meetings. There was, for
instance, a petition trom Beading to the effect that. the flight
lion. Baronet we about to ruin the agriculturists. In Lin-
colni`j re the graziers took the alarm. In fact, in every quarter
especial fear for peculiar inters sts was expressed; hut the main
festers of the plan, its general outline, remained untouched.
tie did not exaggerate these things; but he should say that a
nation like Englaied, which had for many years been the ad-
miration of the world, was more likely than any other to ex-
lite the jealousy of foreign states. It was un that account
he thought that they should make every exertion in their
power to maintain the eminent honour and grandeur of the
country. It was said that a tax upon incomes would operate
unequally ; but he believed that the inequality was much
greater in the Ca =C of indirect taxes. lie felt, however, that
to professional incomes. some relief should be granted. The
case of is professional man with 4001. a year, was very different
from that of a London proprietor in the receipt of the same
amount of rent. The one could spend the wkole of his receipts, •
while the other was obliged to make alum i• ion for future contin-
gencies. Fie thitueht there might be a clear claim to exemption
when a person lays out a certain ,urn in insuring his life, for that
amount of his income he thought he might be exempted from
the tax. Ile did not see that this alteration in the law would
lead to any of that confusion which some other suggestions cer-
tainly would, and he thought it might be adopted by the Right
Hon. Baronet with great benefit. Great inconvenience had
been experienced from the manner in which the tax had been
enforced under the former Acts. He would take the case of a
person keeping an academy, and deriving also an income from
shipping. He might suffer various losses from his connexion
with shipping, and have his income greatly reduced. Surely
it would be a very hard case to tax a person of that descrip.
lion on his income derived from his academy, when
he was deprived of the income he derived from
another source. He hopeil the Right Hon. Baronet would
manage so, that a person suffering a loss of his income from
property classed in one schedule, would be compensated by a
relief from taxation on property classed in another. He thought
the tax would press peculiarly hard on the class he had men-
tioned, the class of schoolmasters. It vrou'el, he thought, be a
great hardship, if they were taxed on the whole amount of the
income derived from their pupils, while their profits were not
more than from 51. to 101. on each pupil. Ho had mentioned
in a homely way, but he hoped intelligibly, some of the altera-
tions which he thought might be advantageously made in the
Right Hon. Baronet's plan. In outline it was great and com-
prehensive, and as such, would, he hoped, be treated by the
House. He was sure that when the House came to consider
the tariff, it would not treat it in a spirit of party, but in a
spirit of moderation.
Mr. WALLACE said, the Honourable Member who had
last spoken had gone into the details of a measure that was not
before the House, and had not entered into the measure that
was before it. Ile had just told them that timber was the
" nestergg" of the agriculturists, but he "would allow him,
(Mr. W.) to suggest that there were other parties who also
had their " nest-egg." The "nest-egg" of the commercial
community was secrecy as to their modes of conducting their
business. Their desire was not to have their modes of conducting
business inquired into in any way whatever. Whatever the Com-
missioners may say, he could assure him
%that all inquiry was
out of the question. However strict the rules might be as to
secrecy, it would in practice be repeatedly broken through.
They were now debating the question of an income tax, and a
great many things might be said in relation to the position in
which the Right Hon. Baronet had placed the country ; and in
the first place he thought the Right Hon. Gentleman had
brought forward his budget at an unseasonable period, before
the end of the financial year, which he thought was contrary to
Parliamentary usage. In the course of his Parliamentary ex-
perierice he never knew a budget brought forward till after the
sth of April. The budget was also brought forward piecemeal,
and he never knew a Minister of the Crown a ho did not bring
fore ard his whole scheme at once.—( Hear, hear.) That was his
view of the matter, and if he were wrong he could be set right.
He had also to complain that time had not been given to the
country to understand the question. He had likewise to com-
plain of the partiality of the measure. He had, on a
former occasion, adverted to a recollection of his
that the Right lion. Baspect had stated that it would be unfair
it an income tax did not embrace the se hole of the three king-
dems. Awl he woule now quote from a speech delivered by
the Right Hors. Baronet on the 19th of April, 1833, and he was
glad to see the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Member for the
county Cork, in his place. The Right Hon. Baronet said,
that, the Nble Lord (Althorp) did well not to propose an in-
come or property tax, as it could not be jus:ificd, except in a
ease of extreme necessity, and to rais two or three per cent.
by such nos .s would, he thought, be very unwise. Such a
tax would be a great r. soiree in time of necessity, and should
not be unwisely applied in time of peace. But if it were neces-
sary to impose such a tax Ite land ought not to be exempted. Now
he ( Mr. Wallace) did not wish to see Ireland taxed, but he
wished twee that England and Scotland were not taxed. He
coeceived that Scotland should be as exempt as Ireland, and
he should take the sense of the House upon the subject.
With respect to a tax upon property, as dis•inguished from a
tax upon income, the Hight Hon. Baronet had very much
doubted whether it would favour the interests of the labouring
population. Would the Right Hon. Baronet say so now ? In
his (Mr. Walleee's) opinion, property and incense' were sync).
nymous Hear, hear, fr am Sir R. Peel.) He meant
in their applicatioo.—( Hear, hear.) He did not believe it
would be possible for the Right Hon. Baronet, or the House,
to impose a tax upon proper y separate from income. He con-
ceived that any distinction would be unfair. Now, it was said
that 7d. in the pound was a very small amount, and not worth
mentioning, b--cause, during the war, 10 per teat. was paid
without asy difficulty. It should be recollected that, during
the war, this country had the bail of commute at its foot.
There was then continued prosperity, unceasing money mak-
ing. There. was no man engaged in any prudent kind of busi-
ness who dpi not go to bed at night richer than he rose in the
morning.—( Laughter. )
Sir itOBER*I PEEL—It would be better to have a war
again.—(A laugh.)
Mr. Ns, ALLACE said, at all events, they should not first
expose the affairs .of the distressed people, and thee take three
per cen'. out of their pockets. On those grounds he thought
Parliament ought not to insist ou this tax. Plenty of expe-
dients had been shown to which they could have ieeourse to
supply the deficit of revenue, and he hoped, therefore, the
House 'senild prevail on the Right Hop. Baronet to give up
his scheme.
Mr. LIDDELL sail, it was perfectly true that the
commercial and agricultural claises of the community
were looking with great impatience to the conclusion of the
debate, but it was not to be expected that a measure affecting
interests of such importance as the present did, should l ass
without considerable discussion. He would, therefore, trespass
for wine time on the indulgence of the House. The Hon.
Gentleman who had just sit down,,bad in the course of his
speech made one most important admission, which must he
very satisfactory to the Right Honourable Baronet. If it
were true, as the Right Honourable Gentleman had
stated, that a property tax could not be laid on inde-
pendently of an income tax, what became of the
opposition offered by Hon. Gentlemen on the other side?
The Right Hou. Gentleman had brought forward his plan as
a whole, and it would be unfair to the Government to consider
it in detached parts. The only question was, did the exigen-
cies of tke country require, the snip° ition of the taxes which
the Right Son. Baronet bad proposed? He had listened to
the speech of the Noble Lord with surprise and with pain. It
was not necessary to go back to the period when the income
tax had been of iginally proposed, lie would recal the atten-
tion of the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite to the year 1830.
At that period they took office under the auspices of a wiser
and better leader than they ever had since Lord Grev.--e
( Hear.) At that time their watchwords were, " Reform:Re-
trenchment, and Peace." The first pledge had besn speedily
redeeMed 'by the Reform Act, and although he ob-
jected to some portions of that mea ure, yet he
must confess that it removed many blemishes ; and
it hail now given us a Government such as
,hed never before
been seen es this country—a Government framed on a broad
Conservative basis, and resting for support upon the people in-
stead of on a boroughmongering eligarchy, and any Govern.
ment that might succeed them must likewise rest upon the
people for support. With regard to retrenchment, there had
been a retrenchment of revenue with an augment a• ion of ex-
penditure ; arid with regard to peace, tilihough the country was
net involved in an European war, yet it was involved its war:
likely to be quite as long continued nod as expensive • A Bri-
tish Envoy had been murdered in violation of the law of na-
tions, by a barbarian Chief beyond the Indus. That perfidy
it use no; go unpunished; and that war had been left to em-
barrass the present Government by their predecessors, who had
rushed into it in spite of the warnings of the most illuorioue
warrior of the age. Surely, the result of the last election
ought to have enlightened the Noble Lord's mind
as to the estimation itt which his financial plans
were held by the country.—( Hear.) Even among the
supposzers of the late Government. the greatest diversity of
open on existed on the subject. Flis (Mr. Liddell's) Hen.
Colleague had at tip., last election been proposed by the Mem-
ber fur South Durham and, in propo-ing him. that Hon.
Gentleman had said, that although he supported the Noble
Lord's Government, yet he would oppose them in the altera-
tion of the Corn laws. When his lion. Colleague addressed
the electors, he expressed himself as approving of the Govern-
ment-, bto he also exereised his decided oppositioe to any mea-
sure inter erires with the sugar duties. Two other Hon. Gen-
dome'', the Members for North and South Shields, both of
whom sat on the opposite side of the House, declared that they
would vote for a change in the sugar duties, but that they
would not hear of any change in the timber duties. The No-
ble Lord had referred to the speech of the Hon. Member for
Wallingford, and alleged that the lion. Gentleman had de-
ceived and misled the farmers. He (Mr. Liddell) could say
that if the farmers had been deceived and misled, it was not by
tips R gkt Hen. Baronetor the Government. In many of theßight
Hon. Baronet's speeches he had pledged himself to the princiele of
the fluctuating duties on corn. It was perfectly clear that he
had not, pledged himself to no alteration in detail. He (Mr.
Liddell) considered that he (Sir Robert Peel) had redeemed
every pledge he had given. If Hon. Gentlemen on that (the
Moneterial) ride of the House had made use of strong
ilan-
guage, let them he answerable for t.—(Hear.) He must say
that there was great discontent among the cattle-dealers of the
country. lie was aware that the fairs and the markets were
in a state of stagnation, and it is believed that the apprelien-
sioii of the dealers had been raised by the ignorance of parties •
who had expressed opinions as to what was likely to hay pen in
that branch of trade. When he passed through York the
other day he saw a placard announcing that the market was
likely shortly to be supplied with meat at 3d. per pound.
Could anything be more visionary than such apprehensions as
these? lie would just refer to the imports into this country
from Ireland alone, and he would read to the House some de-
tails extracted from a work entitled "The Revenue, Popula-
tion, and Commerce of the United Kingdom," thigh would
show the extraordinary increase in the importation of reads'
that had taken place within the last ten years from Ireland.
In 1825, the imports were 63,524 cows and oxen, and in 1835
no less than 93,150 oxen and cows, being.an increase of no less
than 34,6i6. Of sheep, in 1825, 72,191, and 1835, 125,452
head, being an increase of 53,261. Of. swine, in 1825, the
number was 65.900, and in 1835, 376,191 head, being an in-
crease of 310,000. Why did he mention these facts, but to
al'ay the apprehensions which had arisen. He found that at
this moment butchers' meat was higher in London than he be-
lieved it had ever been before, with the exception of a small
fraction ; for they could not obtain the best' butchers' meat for
less thin 841. per pound. He thought every one would admit
that it was not the interest of the landed proprietor or the
agricultur.ets, any more than the consumer, that on any
article there should be a high price. He (Mr. Liddell) believed
that the Right Hon. Baronet would deal with their cumbrous
tariff as it should be dealt with, and that he was fully alive to
those great duties which were demanded of him as a Minister
of a great empire. He (Mr. Liddell) had ventured to tell the
Mouse the amount of the importation of cattle from Ireland.
tie would el •• t !':•• , .

portatlon ever made of Lye oxen into Scotland in one vessel
00 been made into Aberdeen, viz., 209 head of oxen, and

100 sheep. The vessel tilso contained 100 bones of salmon.

Now, if such 'an extensive i pte mrtatien were td be et-
pected, he ieould like to ask Where that cddntry was` which
was supply it? He had looked over the ireperts and ex-
perts of some of the countries of the north of Europe.
From Finland the imports were 1,139 head. Prussia was
a country which both imported and exported; but the import
of cattle very largely exceeded the export in any one year.
In 1828 the number of oxen, steers, cows, and cslves imported
was 19.752 head, the eipoets amounted to 8,10 heall, being
an excess of imports over exports of 11,551. In 1829 the im-
ports were 20,342, the exports 7,971, being an excess of im-
ports over exports of 12,371. In 1830 the imports were
17 391 head, and the exports 9,000, being an excess on the
same of 8,939. In 1t431, which was a year in which little
speculation took place, and for which he could not account,
the exports only amounted to 13,000 and the imparts te'et,ooo,
being an excess of imports Over exports of upwards of 5.000.
In sheep, the importation into Prussia amounted in 1828 to
211.39 e head, and the experts 76,464, being an excess of im-
ports over experts of 134,928. He would riot trouble the
House with the details, but the excess of imports over exports
in 1829 amounted to 141,000; in 1830, 126,' 00; and in 1831
to 76,000.- Swine was also in proportion to that number.
From this it would appear that Prussia was not the counry to
send a large quantity of cattle to this country. In Denmark
1836 he found that the amount, of exports in to the whole
world was 28.000 head of oxen, 5,003 cows, 6,900 calves, and
13,028 pigs. Let any person consider these statements, and
say w'tether the apprehensions which had been raised were
not visionary. He did not think that the proposed measure
would reduce meat a penny per pound. He ventured to tint-
ble the House with these figures, considei ing, it to be his duty.
connected as he was with a large agricultural county celebrated
for its progress in farming and agricultural pursuits. He did
so to allay the fears and alarms of persons cc:lleac:ea with
these pursuits. These state Meres hit felt convinced would
be received by them, for they came from an
unsuspected quarter. In France the imports of lire animals in
1837, amounted in value to 537,000/. ; the value of exports,
422,0f10/. showing an excess of value of imports over exports of
115,418/. It was not then from France that they had to dread
an inundation of cattle into the English markets Ho believed
that, if any part of Europe was likely to supply the English
market, it would be Holstein and Denmark ; and even from
them it would be at a great disadvantage, as a great part of the
river Elbe was closed by frost, and many months it was ex-
paced to severe storms. With respect to the timber duties, he
thought the alteration would give general satisfaction. There
had been a large meeting in Sunderland on the subject, called
for the purpose of passing a vote of censure on the proposition of
the Rt. Hon. Bart. That meeting was attended by a very influen-
tial timber merchant of the town ',lk ho proposed the first resolu-
tion, and he found a seconder, but no supporter, and an
amendment was proposed and carried. He (Mr. Liddell)
was at the same time well aware that a very strong feeling
existed on the proposed change in the timber duties. There
was only one mere point to which he would allude, in order is
prepare the House for a further notice on the subject. There
was one proposition of the Right Honourable Baronet
with which he could not agree.—(Loud ironical cheers.)
Ile was prepared for that cheer. He alluded, as the
House would anticipate, to the proposed duty on coals. Thera
would be another opportunity, when that part of the subject
was before the House, for him to make such observations upon
it as his duty demanded. He merely alluded to it then to show
that the proposition of the Right Hon. Baronet had not his
entice support. With regard to his proposition with respect'
to coals he could not agree. At the same time he was per-
fectly willing to say that nothing could be more fair than thn
principle upon which the Right Hon. Baronet imposed that
tax. His intention in rising to address the House had been
with the purpose of removing what he considered a visionary
alarm, and he thanked the House for having so patiently heard
hits.
Mr. RIGBY WA SON said, sufficient for the day was the
evil thereof.—( Laughter.) He should most certainly decline
folloWing the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat dawn.
He thought there were strong reasons why the Right lion.
Gentleman should reconsider this proposition, and he would
remind the Right Hon. Gentleman that there was a great
difference between a property and an income tax ; this diffe-
rence had been recognised by Mr. Huskisson, and he had ex-
pressed his opinion on the matter in a clear and decisive manner.
The incomes derived from industrial sources and funded pro-
perty were very different, and should not be equally taxed.
Gentlemen opposite had asserted that they were similar, but
assertion was not proof, and they had not adduced one proof
in favour of their assertion. He thought that real property
should be taxed, but industrial incomes certainly should go free.
He was not going to treat this question as a party question; he
was one of those who cheered the Right Hon. Boroiret when ho
said that the time was come when property should bear the
burdens of the State; little did he then think that the Right
Hon. Baronet was going to subject them to this odious im-
post. If he had erred in thinking that there was a wide
distinction between a property and an income tax, he had erred
in common with the landowners of Dumbartonshi re and Ayr-
shire, who, in the year 1798, had clearly expressed their
opinions on the subject. The Right Hon. Gentleman the
Chancellor of the Exchequer had asked them if it would not be
right to tax the professional man who earned 8 or 10,000/.
a-gear, and the Right Hon. Gentleman said that no tax was
just. if he (Mr. Wagon) had to choose between two species of
injustice. he should say that it was better that the professional
man with 8 or 10,000/. a-year should go untaxed, than that the
man with a miser able pittance of 1501. or 2001. a-year should
be made to contribute sto large a sum towards the maintenance
of the state. All taxes that had yet been proposed pressed
on the working classes, but no tax, inquisitorial
though some of them were, such as the window tax
—was so inquisitorial and so odious as this. He
had put a notice on the paper, which he meant most certainly
to press to a division. The Right Hon. Gentleman had re-
quested them to exert themselves; they would do so; the de-
ficiency was two and a half millions, and why should three and
a half millions be added to it ? He thought the expo, iment of
the Right Holt. Baronet, re'ative to the timber duties, was
quite uncalled for; he did not depreciate the benefits which
might result from that, but he did say that this was not the
time to reduce the duties on timber, and to impose an income
tax. . lie had set on the paper that this tax was most inquisi-
torial, but the Right Hon. Gentleman said that he would r,o
the most he could to alleviate Unit. What was said, in 13; 6, by
Lord Folkestone? That !.',,:obleman said that this tax was
unjust i t princip e and inquisitorial in practice, and if they re-
moved its inquisitorial character it would no longer be an in-
come tax ; and Lord Brougham had expressed a similar
opinion. He had set en the paper that this tax was
a most immoral one ; and, in proof of this, he
would inform them that in 18th there were 11,00) appeals t
the commission in consequence of surcharges:, and of these
11,000, 7,000 did not appear. allowin4 themselves rather to be
imposed upon than subject their affairs to public inve,tigation.
lie would make one more observation before he sat down, aiot
that was, that the Right Hon. Baronet, whiht he did not de
injustice himself, must take care that injustice was not com-
mitted by others ; he must take oare that he did nut allow the
income tax to become the law of the land, and then allow time
tariff to be rejected by tne House.—(" Hear, hear " from Sir
R. Peel.) He was glad that. the Right Hon. Baronet cheered,
and he was quite satisfied; arid in conclusion he begged to
thank the House for the attention with which the few remarks
he had made had been listened to.
Mr. C. W. Vs' YNN said that he felt the justice of the ob-
jections which had been urged by Hon. Members against this
tax, and he was 'aware of the inequalities of the tax, but he
knew of no other to which stronger objections would nut asply.
—( Hear, hear.) He saw the objections, and he was ready to
meet them and face them in consequence of the difficulties
with which we had to centerl.—( Hear, hear.) He thought
that in this question there would be no difference of opinion,
imagining that every one believed that the time was come
when they must in justice take some bold and decided measure,
unless they wished to sacrifice that credit whiCh the country
had constantly maintained. They were told they ought to resort
to the measures proposed in the budget of last year. Now,
that was an argument already disposed of ; the House had
rejected the provusal, and the country at large had confirmed
their decision. He did not think it necessary, therefore, to
dwell upon that subject. Again it was said there might be
an adJition to the assessed taxes. He remembered that, in the
year 1798, such a proposal hid met with the concio rence i f the
country; but that wa; a period of peculiar emergency. There
was at that time a triple assessment, and an increase of revenue
had been obtained. Some of the largest proprietors in the
kingdom were, however, opposed to the war altogether, and
aveided, as much ae possible, contributing in any way to bear their
share of the burdens to which the country was subject at the
time. The taxes imposed fell, by this means, very unequally
on the property of the country ; and the income tax had been
proposed, under those circumstances, to remedy the ilicquality.
tle believed it was owing to the that the country submitted so
readily to a tax upon incomes. The great party who had ells•
approved of the war had opposed that tax, and insisted on its
repeal at the termination of the war. They succeeded in their pur-
pose. The country, however, had since fallen into embarrass.
it enter, and some extraordinary effort should be made to support
its credit. He confessed that ho felt great objection to an in-
crease in the assessed taxes, which he talt would press with very
unequal weight upon the labouring classes. Again, it had
been proposed to levy a tax upon successions. But he be.
tweed it would be very difficult to carry out such a measure.
It was easy, in raising a tax on funded property, to ascertain
its exact amount ; but the same thing could not be said of
real property Were they to have valuators appointed for the
purpose, to fix the value of estates in the different parts of the
country, and to determine the interest which each individual
had in his property ? He thought such a system would lead to
many difficulties and inconveniences, and that it would be more
inquisitorial in its nature than the proposed income tax. It
had been said that the income tax was a war tax; but
he del nut attach much importance to that objection.
The real questien was whether it was the hest mode of meeting
the necessities of the time, and whether any other tax could ho
fairer and more efficient. He confessed that the proposal of
the Government was the best, in his opinion, which, under the
circumstances, could be adopted. He did not labour under
any apprehension that the tax would be continued after the ne-
ces,i.ies had passed away on which it had its rise.
Mr. MACAUL AY ruse, and said, that since the House had
decided that considerations of constitutional right and practi-
cal convenience should yield to a mere usage of 130 years, he,
in the performance of a pledge which he had given to his con-
stituents would venture to submit to the House their wishes
upon the subject then under, its consideration. Re trusted
that before long it would be in his power te perform that duty
in a manner more.regular and more agreeable to his own feel-
in.'s. He couet not believe in the long continnance of any
abusey which hail in its favour, for the time, a majority of a
single vote, and not the shadow of even a single reason.—
( Hear, hear.) He would sta'e as concisely as he could, in pre-
senting a petition to the House—for his object was not vexation
or delay—that he had been charged by the Lord Provost, the
Town Council, and Magistrates of Edinburgh, in some manner
or another to communicate to the House their opinion that

the proposal to tax all kinds of income would lead to palpable in-
justice and oppression, would be unequal in its operation, would
open the door to frauds, would debase the national character,
and would render necessary the most inquisitorial arrange-
ments. Another resolution to the same effect had been placed
in h s hands by the Chamber of Commerce of Edinburgh, and
he had been requested to communicate, in some Parliamentary
way, the substance of thatresolution. His own opinion upon
the subject agreed v ith that of his constituents; and, that
opinion had not been shaken by the speech delivered by the
,Right Hon Baronet the other evening---x speech to which he
had paid the greatest attention. The real questions, as be
thought, which they had to consider were these : Was the in-
come tax a tax which ought to be imposed only in circum-
stances of extreme emergency? and were the circumstances in
which the country was now placed, circumstances of extreme
emergency? His ans Aar to these questions was, that the income
tax was one which nothing but the last extremity could justify,
and that that last extremity did not now exist. With regard
to the first objection to the tax, the Right Hon. Baronet had
not said one word which affected it, or which touched upon
it. He had not said one word tending to show that the In-
equality imputed to it did not exist, or that that inequality was
not a frightful grievance. Instead of attemoting to prove
that the inequality was not a most odious part of the tax,
he had contented himself with showing them that it was an es-
sentiai part of the tax. Whenever any lien. Gentleman on
the Opposition benches had said that the inequality was an in-
separable part of the tax, so often did the lion. G. ntlemen en
the .;they side meet that assertion with applause. It was their
principle—ho believed it was a sound principle—that it was next
to impossible to separate a property tax from an income tax.
He believed an income tax to be one of the most unjust and un-
equal taxes that could exist. He allowed that necessity might
•:. •,i 13 to it, just as tiecesiity to,LOI fors, thoot-tn ils
• ,amen just as tiecm,,ity is of
- -
var to besiege towns, destroy suburbs, and ruin property,
. without compensating the sufferers; because in great emergen-