The Sun.
London, England, 1845-07-01 00:00:00

Clauses 2,3, 4,5, 6,7, 8, and 9 were then read, and
severally agreed to without discussion.
On clause 10 being read,
Mr. WYSE rose to object to it in its present form. It
provided that the Government should have the appoint-
ment of the professors, not only in the first instance, but
afterwards. There might be some reason, he admitted,
in the Government having the first appointments, but
not in the subsequent ones. Even as it regarded the
first, he did net think that the Government ought to
take any step without consulting the ecclesiastical au-
thorities at the head of the leading denominations in
Ireland. Leaving, however, the first appointment out of
consideration, he could not consent that any subsequent
appointment should be vested in the hands of the Go-
vernment. In Scotland, the appointment of many of
the professors was in the hands of the town councils of
the cities in which the colleges were situated ; others
were appointed by the head of the universities, or a ma-
jority of the professors. This practice worked well there.
He thonght something of the kind would be better than
vesting the patronage in the hands of the Government.
On the continent, and even in the University of Dublin
a similar mode prevailed to that Fe .was about to pro-
pose. He woulil now move as an amendment to this
clause, " that on any future vacancy in the professorships
of the intended colleges, such vacancy be filled up by
sueh candidates as, after due public examination, before
competent examiners hereafter to be appointed, shall be
declared by them (beir,g otherwise qualified by character
and conduct) to be the most competent to the duties of
such professorships."
Sir R. PEEL thought that the better system would be
to treat each of these questions separately. It did
appear to him that there was no difference between the
Government and the opinions of the Hon. Gentleman.
He did look forward to the time when these colleges
might grow into a university. The question was, what
was to be done in the interim. They thought that it
would be unadvisable to take the power out of the hands
of the Crown of appointing the professors. There was
certainly nothing to prevent the Crown constituting a
Board in Dublin to investigate the qualifications of the
professors. It might be desirable that there should be a
great competition for the fellowships, and with respect
both to these and the professorships, they must adopt
the principle of competition, or they must leave it to the
responsibility of some authority to appoint to both. He
thought it better to avoid everything like favouritism,
and he had no doubt but those colleges would hereafter
give the supply to those colleges themselves. He could
isonceive that no greater stimulus could be given to young
men than the prospect of one day filling those professor-
ships under which they had studied. The colleges had
to be founded and built, and after the appointment of the
first professors, say in 1848, the attention of Parliament
might be directed to the subject. Above all things, it
was necessary to avoid everything like party spirit, and
he did hope that, in the first place, the appointment of
those professors would be left to the Crown.
Lord EBRINGTON thought that it was necessary
to see their way in the appointment of these professors,
for what had been the conduct of the Government in
respect of the National Church and the Board of Edu-
cation. He must confess, that to him it was of a very
dubious character, and he did not exactly like these
sudden alterations in the mode of proceedings, and he
somewhat distrusted these general expressions of good-
will to the people of Ireland, which might mean any-
thing or nothing. In respect to the Board of Edu-
cation, he remembered that it was about eighteen
months before the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of
the Government had shown himself there, and he must
say that he was anxious to see that the intentions of the
Government were explicitly stated.
Mr. O'CONN ELL rose to object to the clause before
the House. He would recommend the House to keep a
close hand on the powers sought to be obtained by Go-
vernment in this matter. The Right llon. Baronet had
boasted of the success which had attended the Charitable
Bequests Bill. He (Mr. O'Connell) did not think that
the success which had attended that Committee was so
marked as the Right Hon. Baronet seemed to think it.
With respect to this clause, he objected to it because it
gave an unlimited authority to the Government to ap-
point to everything and to remove those whom they had
so appointed without any cause. There was not the
slightest restriction on them. They were not even re-
quired to name their eleves. The House should have
the name and number, and the power given to
each. The Bill as it at present stood
had been viewed with abhorrence by the
priesthood of Ireland. He had heard it said that the
Government were deserving of the confidence of the
Irish people, but since they came into office what had
they done for Ireland ? Had they not appointed to the
offices in Ireland, persons the most opposed to the in-
terests of the Irish people ? Had they not appointed
bishops, the most inveterate in their hostility to the prin-
ciples of the Roman Catholic Church ? Had they, in
fact, appointed a single liberal in Ireland ? Had they
not rather deprived of the magistracy in Ireland those
gentlemen who were anxious to have an independent
Parliament for their own country ? And yet the Right
Honourable Baronet called upon the Irish Members to
give him their unlimited confidence in every thing. He
was opposed to the clause.
_ _

Sir J. GRAHAMsaltithe Goiernment neither asked
nor expected any compliment at the hands of the Hon.
and Learned Member for Cork. They had endeavoured
to consult the best interests of the country, in the ap-
pointments made in Ireland. The Hon. Member for
Waterford (Mr. Wyse) bad eulogised the system pur-
sued in Scotland, of electing the professors to their uni-
versities, but that system, he was perfectly certain,
could not be pursued in Ireland, and for many reasons.
He had stated more than once, that all the regulations
of the colleges would be such as to prevent any religious
jealousy. In the course of a few years, Parliament
would be enabled to judge of the efficacy of the
system, and to alter if it could not approve of it.
He hoped that the Honourable Member for Waterford
would not press his clause.
After a few words from Mr. WYSE i❑ explanation,
Mr. WARBURTON and Mr. Fox MAULE supported the
proposition of the Government.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL said, that if they did not
cha.ige t'te present form of the Bill, whatever steps they
might take to pass it, they would not satisfy the people.
Mr. SHEIL said that they had a perfect model in
Trinity College, Dublin. They were considering two
methods, one was a selection by means of public com-
petition, and the other was by the choice of the Crown.
Which was the best ? In the former case they would be
selecting men of known experience, and in the other
instance they would become objects of suspi-
cion, no matter how pure were their motives.
Their appointments might in future be good, but
their past appointments deserved a vast deal of con-
demnation. Taking the appointments in the bench and
in the church in the aggregate—there were no doubt
some exceptions—they were not such as to conciliate
the people of Ireland. Vv ere they to trust to experience
or to hope?—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. SHAW said there was an erroneous impression
as to the amount of emolument given to fellows. It was
stated by an Hon. Member opposite to amount to 2,0002,
but it only amounted to 1,500/ Do what the Govern-
ment might, the gentry of Ireland, Roman Catholic as
well as Protestant, would still send their children to the
Dublin University. He had no doubt these new colleges
would supply the want that now existed for an interme-
diate education, and it would keep nearer home many
who were now too young to be sent to Trinity College,
but who were now obliged to go there. He had heard
the Hon. Member for Waterford say that a system of
practical education was wanted for Ireland, such as for
qualifying for engineers, &c., and in that expression he
fully concurred, and so far these new institutions would
be valuable.

Lord J. RUSSELL said he should confess that as they
got on with this subject not much light was thrown upon
it by the arguments elicited. The First Lord of the
Treasury said that Ireland should have a new university
at which a certain degree of education would be con-
ferred, but from all he had heard on this point he should
say he was not much enlightened by it. It appeared
that the Dublin University was one in which only the
higher classes in Ireland were educated ; but
he did think the system followed in that in-
stitution should be better defined than it had been.
He did not think the Right Honourable Gentleman who
had just sat down need despair of finding men who were
in favour of the existing system of national education in
Ireland, to fill any vacancy that might occur in the
bench of Bishops. He would be ready to support his
Hon. Friend with regard to the words at the end of the
clause, and he would vote for leaving them out.
Lord J. MANNERS would be prepared at the proper
time to vindicate the course the Irish Bishops had taken
on the subject of national education in Ireland.
The Committee then divided—
For the amendment .
Against it
Majority against the amendment, —96
Sir HENRY W. BARRON then moved the following
amendment to the same clause (10):—That, previous to
the first appoiatment of any rector, president, head of
college, or professor, under this Act, the Board of Edu-
cation in Ireland shall have power to present three names
to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, who must select one
of the said persons to fill such office. He wished to press
the amendment on the attention of the House.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM observed that he was greatly
afraid that the amendment proposed by the Hon. Gen-
tleman would have a tendency very considerably to
diminish the efficacy of the Board. He was satisfied if
the amendment were carried one or two Members would
refuse to act ; and he therefore trusted that it would not
be pressed.

'the amendment was then put and negatived without
a division.
The original motion was then put, that clause 10
stand part of the Bill, on which the House divided, when
there appeared—
For the motion 129
Against it
Majority for the motion —los
Clauses 11, 12, and 13 were then read and agreed to.
The CHAIRMAN then reported progress, and asked
leave to sit again to-morrow (this day).
The House then resumed.