The Sun.
London, England, 1845-06-03 00:00:00

ACADEMICAL INSTITUTIONS-IRELAND.

On the ardor of the day being read,
Mr. M. MILNES said that though labouring ender several
indisposition, he would as briefly as possible state his
opinions to the House. The Bill before the House
was opposed upon two very different and distinct grounds, and
with two very different and distinct objects. For one of them
he entertained every respect, but he could not say so much
for the other. The first was, the opposition of his Hon:
Friends the Members for Oxford and Cambridge, which he
might call the Protestant opposition. Now he could not help
observing that this opposition came very ungraciously from
those Hon. Gentlemen, after their opposition to the Bill for
the endowment of Alaynooth. They refused to give any
education to the Catholics of Ireland, and now they ob-
jected to a Bill for educating the laity of Ireland. There
was another line of objection ; his Hon. Friend said
that this education ought not to be given unless it was founded
on religion. He thought that if they were to examine the
matter they would find that they did not use the word religion
in the proper sense. They did not use the word religion in
the sense in which the Roman Catholics would use it.. They
desired that that religion should be peculiarly and especially
Protestant. They said that the Government must either
establish colleges in Catholic Ireland on Protestant principles,
or they will not consent to the colleges at all. His Right lion.
Friend the Member for Cambridge said that no education was
sufficient unless founded on a religious basis; but he would
not allow them that intellectual education, unless they should
reserve to themselves the right of founding it on
their own domestic and religious instruction, with
which the Government did not think it proper to interfere.
They must trust the academical education of the youth of Ire-
land to the Roman Catholic clergy of that country.—( Hear. )
They might make some restrictions in the system, but it would
end in that. He appealed to what he had said both within and
without that House that he had always considered the Roman
Catholic clergy of Ireland able and devoted men, and that their
only faults arose from their historical condition ; but they had
been too long occupied in what he might term practical mat-
ters, than to promote the cultivation of literature and of sci-
ence. If the youths in the west or in the south were members
of the Roman 'Catholic faith, it was only just that the professors
should be Roman Catholics. With respect to an observation
of the Hon. Baronet the Member for Oxford, he could say that
during the whole time he was at that University lie had never
heard the subject of divinity mentioned. He would rejoice
when Trinity College was placed on a wider field of competition.
lie thought that the course which the Roman Catholics of Ire-
land had taken with respect to this measure was nee which was
not calculated to advance the object they had in view. Let the
Roman Catholic Church of Ireland exercise as it did its legiti-
mate, fair, and indep.nAt nt influence over the country. Let
it extend over them its parental care—a care becoming the age
and time they found it existing in—a care becoming the period
of life to which this academical education was to be applied,
and they might depend upon it tee sad results anticipated by
his Right lion. Friend the Member for Oxford would never
come to pass. •
Lord J. RUSSELL quite agreed in one observation made
by the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down. Tbat Hen.
Gentleman bad said that the measure made no pretence to

perfection. He agreed with him in this, but he owned he did
not think it a merit in the Bill. He owned it would have been
better if the measure now brought before them bad been less
carelessly prepared, and had led, as he thought it would have
led, to the establishment of a complete system of education
in Ireland. He said this because he acknowledged that the
motives which had induced the bringing forward of this
measure was to provide for the happiness of the people of Ire-
land. He agreed that the object was praiseworthy, and he
differed widely from his Hon. Friend the Member br the
University of Oxford, who was one of the strongest objectors
to this Bill, but at the same time, on a revision of the different
provisions of the Bill, he could not but think that it still re-
quired much alteration and improvement to fit it for
the objects for which it was intended. He did not
consider the scheme recommended by her Majesty's
Government would avail for the purposes to which it was ap-
propriated. As respected Ireland, he thought that the Roman
Catholic religion there rendered it incumbent that a better
organisation should exist in any scheme of academical education
than was contemplated in that country. In England there was an
Executive Government which was respected by the people,
who paid a willing and ready obedience to it, and there were
established laws which were generally acquiesced in and obeyed
by the people of both England and Scotland, and there was a
Church in both those countries which was in the possession and
exercise of great influence. There was also another relation,
that of landlord and tenant, which yielded the landlord the
due fruits of industry, and extended to the tenant the blessings
of protection and peace in his avocations. If we look at all
these relations as regards Ireland, we shall discover a very great
difference between them. The Executive in Ireland was vague
and unsatisfactory. The administration of the law was attended
with danger and difficulty, and was unsafe. The Prime Minister
of the Government had admitted there was no confidence in the
administration of the law which gave satisfaction to the people
of Ireland, and a similar objection would apply to the
present Established Church in Ireland. The relation of
landlord and tenant, as it now existed, tended rather
to the commission of crime than to the gond conduct
of the people. On the subject of education, he thought that
the various orders of the State ought to be united together,
and any measure that had for its tendency the promotion of
the good of either class should be adopted, so as to receive
the sanction of all parties. He held with a great proportion
of the people of England that the Roman Catholic Church in
Ireland was one of those powers by which great good might
be promoted, tied by which all the people there might be
united together in social brotherhood, and be reduced in obedi-
ence to authority, and to a feeling of just respect for the laws.
The Roman Catholic Church, in his opinion, ought to be
consulted on any scheme for popular education in Ireland.
The terms which they might demand might be extravagant,
but what to receive, and what to reject would be a matter of
mutual accommodation. The Academical Education Bill,
as it at present stood, created great distrust amongst the Ro-
man Catholic Prelacy and priesthood in Ireland, and they
had come to a resolution, implying fear and distrust, that the
faith and morals of the middle orders of people in Ireland
would be endangered, and probably destroyed, by the proposed
measure ; and unless these difficulties were resolved, the Roman
Catholic clergy could not conscientiously recommend those
persons who came to them for spiritual advice, to send their
sons to the colleges it was proposed to found. He
thought that the Roman Catholic Prelates would receive
little satisfaction from the various observations that
had fallen from Hon. Members, in that House, on the subject.
They had been told that it was intended to put down their
power with a strong hand. Observations had been used by the
Hon. Gentleman who had last sat down as to the system of
education pursued in Italy, and that at Verona pupils were in-
structed in the principles of a faction which was called
" Young Italy." He had also alluded to the educational plans
pursued in the Universities of Germany and France, but so far
from following the unwholesome precedents laid down by that
Hon. Member, he (Lord John Russell) would fly far from
them and avoid them as precedents to be altogether avoided.--
(Hear, hear.) He would ask if no means could be suggested
that would render the proposed measure more acceptable to
the religious majority of Ireland. It had been objected to the
measure that it did not embrace any provision for religious
education. They had been told by the Right Hon. Gentle-
man opposite that there were precedents and analogies for in-
stitutions of education without religion, but it appeared to him
that the analogies had very little resemblance; and the prece-
dents were without authority.—(Hear, hear.) The Right
Hon. Gentleman had said, with respect to the schemes of edu-
cation pursued at Oxford and Cambridge, that very little reli-
gious education prevailed in those establishments, and yet they
would not admit Dissenters into those collegiate institutions.
Before the reformation the hoods of those colleges were univer-
sally Homan Catholics, but during the reign of Henry VIII. they
had been deprived of their appointments and sent adrift; and again,
in the reign of Queen Mary, they had been reinstated in their
places; and further, when Queen Elizabeth succeeded to the
throne, these professorships were resumed by persons profess-
ing the Protestant reformed religion, and it was provided that
religious instruction should form a main constituent of the edu-
cation
taught in those universities. With respect to secular
education, it was not true that it was an evil unless accompanied
by religious education; and, in his opinion, it was a desirable
thing.—(Hear, hear.) He would say, that no man who pos.
sessed the means of gaining secular instruction without religious
education would refuse to avail himself of the means afforded.
There was, however, a difficulty in public education which
could not be easily resolved as to the classes who were to be
instructed. He had given his support to the measure for esta-
blishing the University of London, because he thought that
Dissenters, Roman Catholics, and others professing religious
opinions not congenial with those: entertained by the Esta-
blished Church, should not be deprived of the opportunity and
means of obtaining a collegiate education equal to the advan-
tages which were derived from Oxford and Cambridge Univer-
sities, from which the individuals referred to were debarred.
The London University possessed the power only of conferring
degrees. There were various colleges in connexion with the
University belonging to the Independents, the Baptists, and
others, where the peculiar tenets of those sects, as regarded
religious matters, were conducted by theological professors.
The case of analogy of this University and the Universities of
Scotland, where the religion differed only in ceremonial per-
formances from the Established Church, were not applicable to
the condition of education in Ireland. In Ireland there was a
university which was liberal to a certain extent, as far as re-
garded its under-graduates, but with respect to the bestowal
of its honours it was separate and exclusive. —( Hear.) He
would contend that that university could constitute no prece-
dent for the establishment of the proposed educational system.
The universities intended to be formed should differ in their
system and bearings from all the universities in Eng-
land, Ireland, or Scotland. They should be arranged
on such principles as would suite the state of the country. The
Hon. Member for Cork objected to the scheme because all the
professors were to be nominated by the Government. If the
people of Ireland were willing to accept this arrangement, and
were content that the professors should be so named, he had
nothing to say against the measure, but the contrary was the
case. The people were afraid of the mal-influence likely to
result from leaving the power altogether in the hands of the
Administration. He (Lord J. Russell) could not see the
great advantage to be derived from these colleges as at present
proposed, either looking to the state of Ireland, or regarding the
principles on which the colleges were to be founded. He con-
tended the Government ought to take advantage of the influ-
ence which the Roman Catholic clergy possessed. He would
say let secular instruction be given if you leave out religious
education, but if religious instruction be contemplated,
let the Roman Catholics be consulted.—( Hear, hear. )
If you would give them authority to expel students who were
disobedient to the orders of the Board they would get over the
evil. But there remained another feature of the plan ; that was,
the feature of giving degrees of studentship at the University.
He thought that ought to form part of the plan. They had
the Trinity College attached to an University able to give de.
gives, and consequently superior to these provincial institutions.
For these reasons he thought the plan crude and ill-digested,
and he thought that it would have been much better if they had
consulted the Roman Catholic Prelates, and others high in au-
thority in that Church; they would have had a much better
prospect of coming to a favourable termination. • He meant
such men as Archbishop Murray, a man whose fidelity to his
church was to him a high proof of his fidelity to the State ; and
had they taken such advice as his, the future would have been
much more clear and happy. The Presbyterians were, he be-
lieved, favourable to the plan, but this did not give the advan-
tage which they obtained in the grant to Maynooth. That
wont straight to its object, and was not tainted with the
defect which this Bill would suffer from. Notwithstanding all
these deficiencies, however, he could not agree with the Noble
Lord the Member for Newark in opposing the second reading
of this Bill. He should vote for it because he thought its ob-
Mject was a good one. and he believed that her Majesty's
Ministers would introduce such improvements into it in Com-
mittee as would render it much better than it now was. If
those improvements were not introduced, they would be voting
their money for purposes which, year after year, would prove
less and less satisfactory, but he believed that these improve-
ments would be introduced, and he should, for these reasons,
vote for the second reading.
Lord MAHON said that he should vote for the second
reading, but only because he expected great improvements
would be introduced into it in Committee, and if those im-
provements were not made, he should give his most strenuous
opposition to it on the third reading. In 1839, his negative
against the motion of that day had been overcome by a majo-
rity of only two, and he still thought that the sentiments
which he then expressed that no college could be complete
without religious instruction had been proved by experience to
be correct. The Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary of the
Home Department had said that the pupils could obtain reli-
gious instruction on each day, but was it their inten-
tion that these colleges were to be schools for the towns only
in which they were placed, or institutions for the
provinces in which they were situated ? 1 f the
latter, then certainly the argument that he had used
on this point fell to the ground. He was ready to move the
addition of this principle himself, or he was ready to assist any
other amendment. Without the addition of the principle of
religion, instruction would lose the best of its characteristics,
and become almost useless. They might, indeed, enlarge the
mind and refine the intellect, but they would not correct the
heart. He trusted, therefore, that her Majesty's Government
would consent to introduce this principle into:their measure—to
introduce a principle without which it appeared to him it would
prove injurious rather than beneficial.
Mr. A. HOPE said, that so'far did he differ from what his
Noble Friend who had just sat down had stated, that he
hoped the measure would be so amended in Committee,
but he believed that it was so faulty that no amendment could
render it available for the purpose for which it was professedly
intended, and it apparently was only the opening of a little
alnico, but it was the first step towards the introduction
of that system from the Continent which rendered them,
in his opinion, so inferior to the universities of this country.
The Government entered office on the tacit understanding
that they would conduct the affairs of the country on the
principles of Conservatism, and that they would uphold the
Constitution in all its integrity. Yet in 1845 they had pro-
mulgated a measure similar to the one introduced by the
Whig Government of 1825, which they had patched up in-
stead of re-constructing. He concluded by expressing his
intention of giving his most strenuous support to the amend-
ment of the Hon. Member for Newport.
Mr. M. MILN ES explained that when he referred tothe uni-
versities of Oxford and Cambridge, he wished it to be under-
stood that they were in a more efficient state than they had
been for years before.
Mr. V. STEWART thought that some kind cf education
was loudly called for in Ireland. Means had been taken to
give the higher classes of that country an efficient education,
whilst the education of the middle and lower classes had been
te
comparatively neglected. He gave his best thanks
would
ults
havethe
Go-
vernment, for having adopted a measure which
effect of facilitating the progress of educatiohnitnwthat country •
that could e
and it was one which he thought was the es
devised under the present circumstances of Ireland. It
would have been folly to have recommended a system
of education at variation with the opinions of the clergy, who
had great influence over their flocks. It was recommended by
some that a system of mixed education should be adopted ; but
i t hat were so, the Protestant College on one side, and the
Roman Catholic clergy on the other, would oppose each other,
and much of that good feeling which subsisted between this
country and Ireland would be very much diminished in conse-
quence. The opinion held by many of the Bishops, that if the
education to be adopted was to be a mix' d one, that they should
have the appointment of all the professors was absurd With
respect to an assertion which had been made by the Right Hon.
Baronet the Member for Oxford (Sir R. H. Inglis) that
he understood attempts had been made to subvert the national
schools of Ireland, he referred to the ease of the Rev. Mr.
APNee, who was censured by the Rev. Dr. Davey, the Bishop
of Waterford, in an assembly of clergymen, because on visiting
the seaside he interested himself in a school which was at-

tended by a great number of Protestants which the resident
clergyman had neglected, because he differed with the system
of education which was pursued in it, and did not think it his
duty to attend it, and the children were consequently rendered
liable to be educated in a faith different from that of their
parents.
Mr. HAMILTON would be sorry to give a silent vote upon
an occasion like the present; but he agreed with the Noble
Lord who had moved the amendment, that no system deserved
the name of education that was not based upon religion. He,
therefore, could not absolutely give his assent to every part of
the measure of the Government; but, nevertheless, he agreed
with the Hon. Member who had just sat down, that there
were large masses of the Irish people attached to no particular
religious sect, who would be glad to take advantage of these
colleges, in the event of their being sanctioned by Parliament.
Great efforts had lately been made to promote education
amongst the lower classes of the Irish people, but no attempt
had yet been made for establishing a system of education
amongst the middle classes of that country. It ap-
peared to him that education always descended, and
never ascended, and as this Bill would give the blessings of
education to a class who had hitherto been unable to avail them-
selves of the existing system of education, he was not inclined
to oppose its second reading. He could not, however, say thus
much without at the same time regretting that some provisions
had not been introduced into the Bill to provide for the religious
instruction of those young persons who were to be educated at
those colleges. The religious objection to the Bill might,
however, be easily obviated by Government extending those
elauses which sanctioned the voluntary endowment of theolo-
gical professors in these colleges.
Captain B. OSBORNE could not understand how Hon.
Members who supported national education could oppose this
Bill, because, in his opinion, it rather extended that prin-
ciple than otherwise. The real question, however,
at issue he apprehended to be the propriety of esta-
blishing a system of mixed education and secular instruction;
but he thought the arguments which had been applied to a
mixed education could be as forcibly urged against the social
intercourse, in after life, of those who professed different re-
ligious opinions. There were certain clauses in this Bill to
which he was strongly opposed. He alluded to those clauses
which placed the power of appointing professors to those col-
leges in the hands of the Government, for it appeared to him
that the Home-office was desirous of possessing as much pa-
tronage as the Horse Guards. He regretted that he was
obliged to give the Government only a meagre sup-
port; but while they were legislating upon this
subject, they ought at once to establish some central institu-
tion, like Trinity College, for the education of youth of all
sects and classes in Ireland, who might distinguish themselves
in one of those provincial establishments.
Mr. GL ADSTONE agreed with the Noble Lord the Mem-
ber for the City of London, that this measure was an imperfect
one, but in the present existing state of things in Ireland,
where the religious opinions and sentiments of the people were
so much divided, how was it possible that a measure of this
kind could ever approximate to perfection, much less reach it?
He was not one of those who would join in forcing even a more
perfect measure than this upon the Catholic clergy and laity
against their wish, and it would be monstrous that on account
of a mere majority of English voices to refuse the tender of that
which would be considered a boon in Ireland. The Noble
Lord stated that he thought it desirable that the Catholic
Prelates should be consulted on this measure, and stated
that Archbishop Murray could give most valuable advice to the
Government. There might or might not have been such com-
munication, as far as he knew ; whether it had taken place or
not, or whether it was desirable or not that such consultation
should take place, he was not prepared to say, but it was his
opinion that very considerable weight should attach itself to the
wishes and views of the Irish people. With regard to the
question of consultation with Roman Catholic prelates, he
should express an opinion a little beyond that of the Noble
Lord in the course of a recent debate on the question of religion
as relating to Ireland. He thought that the Noble Lord the
Member for Newark (Lord John Manners) adverted to it as
advantageous that a diplomatic relation should exist between
this country. and the see of Rome. He was of that opinion also,
for the original prohibition of that relationship was not a pro-
hibition on religious grounds, but on religious pounds.—
(Cries of " Hear, hear.") It may be said that that relationship
ought to have been renewed long ago. He agreed that it was
rather late now, but in any measure like the one now under
discussion, he thought that it was most unhappy, for a great
many reasons, that they should continue to refuse the esta-
blishment of a diplomatic relation and ordinary good feeling
which existed not only between Christians but all civilised
nations, and which ought to exist with the Pope in particular,
on account of the religious position which he held. He only
referred to the fact that a diplomatic relation had been in
existence, and that it existed now, though unavowed, in con-
sequence of the absolute necessity which a successful Govern-
ment thought themselves unable to resist. It was said, and
with a great appearance of truth, that on the question of edu-
cation there ought tobe a communication between the Govern-
ment and the heads who represent the Roman Catholic people.
Archbishop Murray might, for instance, when consulted, give
the very best advice, and with the greatest ability, but his
authority was not supreme ; it would be liable to be overruled
by orders from the Court of Rome. The English Govern-
ment would then be in the position of having bound themselves
to persons not of the highest authority. The Right Hon.
Baronet, the Secretary for the Home Department, made al-
lusions to the University of Oxford, but he was of opinion
that his information was rather incorrect. It was 14 or 15
years ago since he left that University, and fell, perhaps, under
the same imputation as the Right Hon. Baronet; but he did
not think that at that time religious instruction was insuffi-
cient. Before they became graduates in that university, they
were obliged to attend lectures on divinity. The great bulk
of instruction was given in the private rooms of the tutors, and
addressed to their particular pupils ; and that, perhaps, was the
most valuable instruction. That continued while they were
undergraduates. As respected knowledge in religion, he did
not think that there was not an insufficient stock afforded
when he considered that those who received it were about to
be Members of that House, or who were to be country gen-
tlemen, or lawyers, or persons filling the various relations of
life. In point of theory he was of opinion that the measure
now before the House had fallen far short of measures which
had been formerly granted. The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
Gladstone) then referred to the system adopted atthe London
University, and to the efforts of Dr. Arnold to obtain the in-
troduction of some amount of examination on the texts of Scrip-
ture, which should be common to all Christiana. He (Dr.
Arnold) was not prepared, however, to admit Jews, but the
plan now intended was to admit Jews. The different stages
of Christianity were important to be known to the historical
student, whether Heathen or Christian. He might be
told that that system was not as fit for Ire-
land as it was for England but he should sav that
it was more fit for Ireland than England, because the religious
distinctions in that country drove them to a greater extremity;
and because the dangers of that system were more likely to
arise in this country, where the religious discipline of religious
communities was lax and weak, than in a country where indi-
viduals were under personal religious discipline. The Right
Hon. Gentleman then referred bsek to the middle ages, when
it was not compulsory upon the students at Oxford or Cam-
bridge, as members of those Universities, to attend lectures or
worship, because there was no daily worship. The system of
lecturing was no doubt a re igious system, because it was admi.
nistered in a religious spirit, but it was when those univer-
sities became colleges that the religious principle was applied.
The inns or halls in which the students were then received were
originally nothing more than boarding-houses, and (lid not at
all approach to the character of colleges. He would beg to,
state, that those Hon. Members who opposed the system
adopted by the Government, were only enforcing their own
private opinions.---( Hear, hear.) The policy which induced
the Government to bring forward this measure was the same
policy as that on which was founded the grant to Maynooth.
He (Mr. Gladstone) gave his assent to this measure, not be-
cause it accorded with his own private opinions, but because it
was likely to be acceptable and useful to the people of Ireland,
and was in consonance with the dictates of society. He saw
many objections to the plan of the Noble Lord, and he thought
the object he had in view would not be gained by it. He
considered the defects that had been complained of
might be got over by voluntary contributions. The
Bill contained one principle of religions instruction, that
was, providing rooms in which lectures might be delivered.
He thought secular education without religion was had, but
that was not the question before the House. There were other
points in which the question might be regarded. His Noble
Friend the Member for Newark had said, why not establish a
system of Roman Catholic education? Why if that was done
they would be obliged to establish a system of Trinitarian edu-
cation, and perhaps a system of Arianism itself, and when he
looked at the alternative, he thought they would be doing far
more injury by adopting the plan of his Noble Friend than
that brought forward by the Government. Both on the
ground of principle and practicability be thought the
plan of the Noble Lord far inferior to that proposed by her
Majesty's Ministers. After having passed the Maynooth Bill,
he thought they would be deserving of the reprehension of their
constituents, if they preferred the plan of the Noble Lord to
that of the Government. He did not apprehend that there
was such difficulty in electing professors as had been anticipated
by some Honourable Members. The Right Honourable Gen-
tleman concluded by stating that amid a choice of difficulties he
should vote for the second reading of the Bill, in the firm be-
lief that if its provisions were carried out good would result
from it.

Mr. WYSE did not think that sufficient information
had been given to the House of the manner in which education
was to be carried on under the Sill. He was anxious that
universities should not be turned into mere grammar schools.
He admired that part of the plan which would tend to open the
only university they had in Ireland to all. He had considered
this measure for many years, and though he had some objec-
tions to the details of the measure, he was as he had alway been
favourable to the principle which would give a mixed system
of education, because be believed it would lead to the best re-
sults. The recognition of a system of academical education
was a great step gained in that House. He thought education
ought to be based on religion and morality, and
the question was, would the Bill have that effect.
If these colleges were intended, he presumed they were, to he
not merely colleges for education, similar to that taught in the
Universities, but what he considered of much more importance,
to be colleges for the education of the middle classes in all the
industrial branches, they ought to take steps to secure as many
students as possible, at as cheap a rate as was consistent with
the maintenance of the establishments. The most important
part of the question was the appointment of the professors
themselves. He thought it was of infinite importance, not
merely in reference to the colleges themselves, but with refe-
rence to the whole march of Government with reference to the
social concord of the entire country, that if they were to have
professors in these colleges, whatever their talent ar!dac-
qeirements might be, they ought to be abovee
Bill which
suspicion.
He could not give his assent to that portion of the
eno
placed the power of nominating those professors exclusively
be
in
the Crown. Any precedent for such a proceeding cou
found in l
any of the Universities
n nd
eodf
nn objections England and
which Scotland.
Ilis views of the Bill were founded
wouldwith t this
rcaoandsyi d
tenr egd applichablee
nt ot
tint
ointheitrs pprri
ne presente
ss tnantne
n.
ecHteed
measure as a mere matter of education. There would be no
hope of religious spiritual equality in Ireland, unless you told
the people that the religious feelings of their youth should not
be prejudiced in any way. He would not wish for an exclu-
sively Roman Catholic College, or for an exclusively Presby-
terian College, but let it beequally free from religious influences
of every description. As regarded Maynooth, it was proper
that its fundamental principles should remain unaltered, it was
solely appropriated for the education of Roman Catholic
priests, and to the furtherance of that object let it be con-
tinued. He could not admit that the Crown ought to interfere
with the regulations of that University. The present pro-
posed system of education would not admini.ter satisfactorily
to the requirements of the people. Whatever scheme was
founded on just and liberal principles for the education of the
Irish nation, should receive his most cordial suppor t , but the,
establishment of such system must leave oven the advantages
to be derived from it, equally, fully, and fairly to all classes of
the coml.' unit y.
Mr. ACKLANI) observed that be would shortly review the
means by which it was proposed to carry the Academical Edu-
cation measure. Hitherto no Member who had spoken on the
subject had expressed his unqualified approbation of it.—
( Ilear.) The measure had been so much dissected and
pulled to pieces by different Hon. Gentlemen, that only a bare
stump remained. There was a great difficulty in dealing with
the question as regarded the assumption of an Hon. Member,
who concluded that the appointments to the professorships
should be placed distinctly on a religious footing. The result
would be that persons going into those colleges should have a
religious education without one farthing having been paid for
that purpose, With regard to the principles on which the Bill
was founded, the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the

Home Department had quoted from the report published in
1836, that It was intended to frame the Bill on " sound prin-
ciples," it had been brought forward as resting upon " souni
principles." When Members came down to the Houseand told
they were going to deal with sound principle it would he a
visable to consider on what those principles rested. He con-
tended that educational instruction should be left entirely to
the willing selection of the recipients, and not thrust upon
them ; and he further considered it a perfect delusion to at-
tempt any scheme of education in Ireland, without consulting
the interests and opinions of the Roman Catholic clergy there.
They will not receive any measuse which they could not adopt
without suspicion. The Bill had met with the unanimous re-
fusal of the Irish Bishops to adopt it. For these reasons, not
regarding it as a measure contradictory of principles long and
consistently entertained, because he believed that the Govern.
ment consistently introduced it as in consonance with the ne-
cessity of the times, and rendered compulsory by the pressure
from without, but considering it in theory and practice, for
they had the experience of the Scotch, Belfast, and London
colleges, though the latter he scarcely considered in point—es-
sentially impolitic, he should, though reluctantly, record
his vote against the second reading of the Bill. In
entering this opposition it might be retorted that he should
proposed a better expedient ; though he did not assent to that
proposition, he was sot unprepared to give a sketch of what
he considered would be a preferable, if not a benefice! system.
He would suggest that an honest and fair attempt be made by
the Government to induce parties well inclined in Ireland to
unite for the benefit of their respective Churches, and volun-
tarily to establish colleges and religious academical institutions.
Such a system he believed would, under the sanction of a fos-
tering Government, prosper in itself, as withdrawing dissen-
sions and conciliating acrimonious feelings, and at the same
time affording a feasible means of education and religion. In
the absence, however, of anything approaching to such a prin-
ciple, he could not assent to the present measure, although, at
the earns time, he protested against the conduct attributed to
the Government.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. MORE O'FERRALL regarded the principle of the
Bill as wholly dissimilar from that of the national education.
In the latter the pupil remained under the surveillance of his
parents, and was by them trained up in the religion they desired
and professed ; but in the measure now proposed the students
were wholly divested of authority or control. On political and
religious considerations, therefore, he felt it his duty to give his
vote against the second reading of the Bill. He regretted,
therefore, that he could not vote for the second reading of the
Bill.

After a few words from Capt. BERNAL OSBORNE in
explanation,
Sir R. PEEL said, until he had heard the speech of the
Right Hon. Gentleman he thought whatever differences of
opinion might prevail on the details of the measure that there
was a general concurrence in one sentiment—if the Govern-
ment could overcome the difficulties which had arise
from different religious creeds—(Hear, hear)—and could ex-
tend academical education in Ireland, that it would be a great
boon.—( Hear, hear.) His Hon. Friend doubted whether that
necesssity existed, and whether the institutions would effect
the good that was intended. Looking to the population, he
might now be assured that they could overcame the difficulties
which they had to encounter—that, looking to the state of Ire-
land—to the extent of the population—an ample provision for
academical education was called for as much as at Oxford, Cam-
bridge, King's College, and other institutions in this country.
They had undertaken the education of the lower orders. They
had 400 institutions iu the country, with the pupils from the
age of 12 to 14, the most important period of all whose educa-
tion was to be superintended. They could not send them to
Scotland, and the question then was, were they to have esta-
blishments in Munster and Connaught or not, with the means
of education? He would read an extract from a work of great
interest to all who had anything to do with the means of edu-
cation. The work was the composition of an eminent profes-
sor, Dr. Kane. It had been necessary to establish a geolo.
gical professor, and they had appointed him because flits't
had a strict confidence in him, and had no fear
of the fulfilment of his duty. This was the
person whom they had appointed to instruct the whale
people of Ireland, and they did not think that because he was
a Roman Catholic he would pervert the office he had been ap-
pointed to fill for sectarian purposes. What was the opinion of
Dr. Kane, given long before the establishment of those aca-
demical institutions was contemplated? What, he said, was
the opinion of Dr. Kane with respect to the resources of Ire-
land and the means by which those resources were to be deve-
loped? He gave his opinion in the concluding chapters of his
work. In the course of those observations he stated that his
impression was, that the want of capital was the bugbear of
Ireland. What Ireland wanted was a development of
the industrial energies of the country. This would
develope the whole of the resources of Ireland.—
( Hear, hear.) It was this which led to the institution of the
collegiate establishments. This was an answer to his Hon.
Friend the Member for Somersetshire, when he told him
that the instructive institutions of Ireland were to be founded
on the principle that the instruction of the lower classes was to
be confided to men who were in the confidence of the people.
Among the youths who were there educated they were to give
all the prestige of their early years, and to mix in the world
with the impression that they were to mix with those with
whom their early years were present. Supposing they had
altogether laid aside the question of religious education, still
there were points which well deserved the observation of the
House and peculiar to the country of which they were speak-
ing. They could not send the pupils to England or to Scot-
land, and he thought that the best plan would be to institute
academical institutions in Ireland. But what was the religious
portion of the religious orders in that country, and what was
their position with regard to the State. What was to be done
with those professors of a moral and scientific character. The
whole of the youths of the country were to be instructed,
and according to his Honourable Friends, there was
to be a difference between the Roman Catholic
and the Protestant. The Presbyterians might make the same
claim, and what would be the consequence of the principle
which his Hon. Friend the Member for Oxford ( Sir R. H.
Inglis adopted, and who styled the subject one of immense
godlessness. There were Protestant, Roman Catholic, and Pres-
byterian prejudices to grapple with in this matter. There was
no prescription of fifty years, as was the case with regard to
Maynooth, There was here no awful delusion to be advocated
in the name of religion. He was aware that he hod stated the
substance of the speech of his Honourable Friend the
Member for Oxford—not the speech which he had de-
livered, but the speech which he would have delivered if
he had bees apprised of all the circumstances.—(Laaghter.)
The original proposal was that Government should only par-
tially contribute to those institutions, and the grand juries of the
different counties should provide for these institutions, and the
contributions of Government were to depend upon the extent
of the voluntary contributions. By the present measure, how-
ever. Government bound themselves to erect buildings and
establish professorship., and it was not unreasonable to call
upon the parents of the chiidren to be educated at these col-
leges to attend to their religious instruction. What was the
religious instruction given at Harrow ? Was it done by a
master giving a morning lecture on theology ? No ; the course
was this—the parents of the children ascertain the moral cha-
racter of certain persons who act as tutors at Harrow, and if
their inquiries prove satisfactory the parents commit their
children to the care of the tutor, and invest him with
parenta ]authority. Now was this much better ? Was it not
more effectual than establishing a religious system of education,
and why should not the same course betaken at these Colleges'
It was the course taken at the institution in Liverpool am.
Bristol, where it had worked well ; and why should not the
same system be extended to Ireland ? But Parliament ha,'
already sanctioned the extension of this system to Ireland,
for in 1810 Parliament sanctioned the establishment of an
institution which was called the Belfast Academical Institu-
tion. That institution affords classical and mercantile educa-
tion to youths, disconnected from all religious instructions.
Dr. Crolly had borne his strong testimony in favour of those
institutions, and he would pledge the experience of this distin-
guished prelate against the predictions of those Hon. Members
who said the religious education of the youths to be brought
up at these colleges would be neglected. Dr. Crolly distinctly
stated the religious education of the pupils in the Belfast Insti-
tution were strictly attended to, and a due and proper regard
was paid to the various religious principles of all who were edu-
cated at that establishment. Now, this was Irish experience,
and he—setting it against the predictions which had been, in-
dulged in by some Honourable Members might add,
that the only objection Dr. Crolly had against the Bel-
fast Institution was that it possessed professors of theo-
logy and divinity. Now, nothing had snore surprised
him than the opinion of the Irish Ronan Catholic prelates. He
had read the documents they had published on this measure,
and nothing had filled him with so much surprise. Was it not
monstrous to suppose that a youths professing Roman Catholic
principles could not he instructed in theology except by a Ro-
man Catholic tutor. Now, this appeared to him to be really
absurd ; but were not the youth belonging to the
Established Church placed upon the same footing
as those professing Roman Catholic principles ? But
independently of this was it likely that a professor of anatomy,
after describing the miracles of the working of the human body ;
after describing how every artery was connected with the fibres
of the human frame, would terminate his anatomical lecture
with an attempt to undermine the religious principles of his
pupils. He could not conceive it possible that a gentleman
holding the high station of professor of the sublime sciences of
anatomy and astronomy should take advantage of the power he
possessed over his pupils to turn their minds against those re-
ligious principles in which they had been brought up.—( Hear,
hear.) He thought that the plan would be incomplete, unless
these colleges were incorporated with each other. The union
of these institutions into one university would be preferable to
the giving to each college the character of an university. If
the plan worked well, and met with confidence, some time
hence would be the period for considering whether then they
should be incorporated, and what power the universi-
ties should possess with respect to the giving of
degrees, &c. They did not make any declaration
then on that subject. The Crown would have the power
even without the aid of Parliament of incorporating the Uni-
versities, which would, of course, be the ease if the colleges
gave satisfaction. The measure was at present objected to,
because it did not comprise every thing which ni!ght here-
after be connected with it. These were the principles
.on
cwi
rhei
achm
stthaenye
ecsa mo
feltroe
atande,
acaodn etlhues ipoona, t
icoonn ifdtehrei npog p
at hi
aetpeculiar
circumstances of Ireland, and the position of the population, that
they had a better chance of making that system of religious
dediautnealytiocnonmuorrae
tahcacaepitfatlohleeytowtehroesetowhkoamadiatepmaraayteminhreeoliciomgmea-1
professors, or professors belonging to the different creeds of
those who may resort to those colleges. His Hon. Friend
said that no system of education could answer un-
less it was founded on a religious basis, but lie
should admit that religious instruction should ema-
nate from the Church of England. There were objec-
tions made by a high party in the Roman Catholic Church,
but still notwithstanding these objections, notwithstanding the
opposition which by some portion of the laity was urged
against this plan, he (Sir Robert Peel) yet had reason to
think that there was a very considerable portion of intelligent,
arid respectable men of all persuasions who were disposed grate-
fully to accept the proposal of the Government, and they
trusted that experience would falsify the predictions which were
urged against the measure. If they could carry on the system
which prevailed in the national schools, if they could unite the
youth of Ireland in one common system of education, he be-
lieved that they would go far to soften the asperities which oa
account of religious differences existed in social life in
Ireland, they would alleviate the condition of the youth of
Ireland, they would lay the foundation of the development and
improvement of those natural and material resources vvieh
which that country abounds, which had not been developed less
from the want of capital than from the want of that industrial
and scientific knowledge which, combined with an instruction
in religion, it was the object. of the Government to bestow.
Air. M. J. O'CONNELL said that he should say a few
words in explanation of his differing from those with whims he
had both private and public tics. His English education hod
enabled him to SO' sisal they, the Roma) Catholics. hail no-
thing iu the way of undermining to fear front their Protestant
fellow-countrymen. Plc was sorry to tee that the present
Rill was brought in in its present skeleton shape ; they learned
snore and more with respect to that from every speech that was
made on the opposite side. There were one or two points
which he felt strongly opposed to, and which he would oppose
on a future occasion if they were not amended. He was allud-
ing to the points contained in proviso in the 14th clause.
He thought there could be no opposition to something of this
kind, that persons when they entered the college should state
what were the religious opinions they held. He thought there
Hon. Baronet
la
could be no objection to that. He thought in endowing
chapeli
awilhoaltet,he withthe
Right
alterations
had endeavoured to suggest, the Government measure was a
ds aid. there
e was a
thought great upon dealon
thein
good one. He thought the Government should not have the
power of appointing the professors, but as things now were ht

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