The Sun.
London, England, 1845-06-04 00:00:00

RAILWAY COMMITTEES.
ESTERDAY.)

GROUP A.

LONDON, MULTI:ULM ®ND N °MIL RENT
RAILW &Y.
(Continued from our Afternoon Edition cif 3 esterda7.)

Mr. Finch, from the office of Mr. Stephenson„ ,it in voluminous
details of the population along the line.
Mr. Miller, civil engineer, gave evidence of 3xecisely the same
character, and equally favourable to this line.
The cross-examination elicited nothing material,- _ . .

Mr. Thornton, an extensive contractor, had s un 'eyed the whole
of the proposed line, with a view to cosatr.acting for the
works. He had examined the subsoil in all those parts where
any supposed difficulty existed with respect to 'the foundations of
♦iaducts, &c., and he found that there was no dbfficaulty throughout
the line which would raise the expense higher t'hai-s Mr. Vignolles
had estimated. He had offered to take the whole o f the works at
Mr. Vignolles' prices, and he was now in negottati on for the con.
tract with the Company on those prices.
Mr. Miller, in answer to the Chairmain said, that the Paisley
and Glasgow Railway having to compete with a very excellent
water carriage upon the Clyde, was consequently not very remu.
nerative.
Mr. Tite, the president of the Architectural Scicfrety, and archi-
tect of the Royal Exchange, was examined, to:provt s that the value
of the land would not exceed the estimate of Mr.:%/ignolles, which
was about 215,0001.
Mr. Locke, civil engineer, was also examined, but his evidence
was again substantially no more than a corroboration of the pre-
vious engineering testimony in favour of the North Kent line. He
considered that the line was very fortunate indeed in having but
one crossing on a level.
Mr. B. Sherwood, a contractor for railway tro rks—Had had
considerable employment and experience in the tconstruction of
works upon railways in France and England. He had examined
the schedules of Mr. Vignolles, and would be very happy to take
the contract for all the works at the prices of those schedules.
Mr. MBAIIDWI4TIIHR, in cross-examination of the witness, re-
quested to see the schedule of prices at which list 1.(51r. Sherwood)
was willing to take the contract. To this there wit 3 some opposi-
tion, which gave rise to a somewhat angry discussic .n. The docu-
ment was ultimately put in, and was found to corn© spond correctly
with the schedules already before the Committee.
The Committee then adjourned till twelve o'clock to-morrow.

GROUP 88.
DUBLIN, 'WEXFORD, AND C..EI .RI.OW
RAILWAY.
(Continued from our Afternoon Edition of yesterday.)
Mr. Jeffers was examined as to the ascents and descents of the
line, which he described as of a much more favourable character
than those on the coast or opposition line.
Mr. Carr put in the traffic tables, founded ups )n the evidence
already given.
Mr. Carr, Deputy.Chainnan of the Great South( 'rn and Western
Railway, and Mr. Waddy, the Parliamentary agent, were briefly
examined upon the case for the projectors of this tine.
The Committee then adjourned till to.merrow at twelve o'clock,
when the case for the opposition to a coast line will be gone into.

GROUP DD.
IMPORTANT DECISION.

THE CALEDONIAN, sum G1...A50 OW, DUM-
FRIES AND CARLISLE RA3:II.WAY.

Board of Trade, to show that in every Instance where a railway '
was contemplated being constructed, the Commissioners had inva-
riably expressed their opinion that the shortest and most direct
line should be adopted. The Learned Gentleman briefly alluded
to the claims of the Edinburgh and Glasgow Railway Company,
and considered they could have nothing to fear from the compe-
tition of the Caledonian line. He concluded his very lengthened
address by expressing his deep convictitri that, looking fairly and
deliberately at the great facilities afforded by, and the important
interests embraced in, the Caledonian project, the Committee
would not hesitate to give their decision in its favour.
The room was then ordered to be cleared, and on our re.
admission,
The CIiTAIIIMA:I said that, it being now five o'clock, beyond
which time the Committee were not permitted to sit, they had not
yet had sufficient opportunity to go through the whole of the duty
which devolved on them ; but, for the convenience of parties, they
thought it expedient to announce the resolution they had so far
arrived at, viz., that the Committee had agreed to the preamble
of the Caledonian Bill, with the exception of the words " with a
branch to Dumfries," and would give their decision on the remain-
ing portion of the case to-marrow.
The Committee adjourned till twelve o'clock to-morrow.

The evidence of Mr. Miller (continued from our A fternoon Edition
of yesterday—lf more time for further inspection of the locality were
given, a shorter line, and a less curved tunnel, could be obtained,
and it would not be necessary to introduce more saevere gradients.
Neither would the execution of the works take up more time. He
had no doubt, from his experience as an engineer that an easier
line might be obtained if more time were given. The whole
estimate of the expense of executing the 15 miles of railway
through the pass was '315,0001. It appeared that the saving,
in point of expense, as compared with the construction of that por-
tion of the Caledonian line extending from Elvara-foot to Carlisle,
taking the proportion of Mr. Locke's estimates, amounted to
512,0001.
On cross-examination by Mr. Coosnuas, Mr. Miller said he had
instructed Mr. Blythe to make a survey of the :Delvine-pass last
week. A survey of the ground had been exeetnted last year, but
the section was confined to the turnpike road through the pass.
He had not given this up in despair, and be should prefer it if he
had the choice of a line to Edinburgh. The erigtnal gradient had
been lin 70, but it had subsequently been altered to lin 75. The
height of the mountain through which the tunnel passed was 1,150
feet above the level of the sea, and is the highest summit on the
line.

GROUP EE.
SCOTTISH MIDLAND R.a.xx.w.tt-r.
(Continued from our Afternoon Edition of yesterday.)

Messrs. Jamieson, Gilmour, and Watson were examined, and
gave evidence to a similar effect.
Mr. Smith, of Deanston, said he was acquainted with the line
proposed. He knew the country well through which it passed. He
thought the rental of the land in Strathmore was about 11. an acre.
The benefit of the railway to the farmers of that district would be
very great. He considered the land for four miles on each side of
the line would be benefited in rental 2s. per acre, or confer an
absolute additional value of 50,0001. per mile of railway on such
tract of country. There were very many manufactories in
Strathmore, and there was a great probability of their being
extended if a railway were formed. The railway would altogether
benefit, in the manner he had previously explained, 150,000 acres
of land.
Mr. Neilson, of Glasgow, said he was a butcher, and was well
acquainted with the cattle trade. The greater portion of cattle and
sheep for the Glasgow market came from Strathmore. There
were about 200 head of cattle brought weekly from that district.
They came at present round by Dundee to Edinburgh by steam.
boat, and from thence by the Edinburgh and Glasgow Railway, or
they walked the distance. The long walking injured them very
much. The carriage per head at present was 12s. ;if they walked
10s. If the present railway were formed in connexion with the
Scottish Central line, he had no doubt they would all be brought by
that route, and at a rate of 7s. 6d. each.
Cross-examined—He had no certainty that the Scottish Central
and the present line would carry cattle at Id. a mile, but he con-
sidered those railways would find it to be their interest to adopt a
low toll. The lines at present in operation carried cattle at Id. a
mile. _ . .

In reply to a question by Mr. HILDTAAD, the -witness said that
additional distance on the proposed branch, as comp ared with the dis-
tance between Carlisle and Elvanfoot, was from nine to ten miles.
Mr. Blythe stated he had proposed the plans an d sections which
Mr. Miller had explained to the Committee, ant I perfectly agreed
with Mr. Miller as to the practicability of making the proposed
branch, but thought that It was susceptible of imearovement.
Mr. CocaeUu then called Mr. Locke, the engineer for the
Caledonian line, to give evidence. He said ho had sent down
several gentlemen last week to survey the pass, and read a letter
of instructions which he had transmitted for their guidance
in making the survey) from which iC appeared they
were not to confine their investigations to the line
already made out, but to examine generally the district, and to
make allowances for having engineering worms. A distance of
10 miles in the direct line would be lost by ;taking the -branch
through the Delvine-pass, and there would be several other grin-
gent objections to the scheme. One of the priincipal disadvantages,
as compared with the Caledonian line, was the necessity of having
a tunnel. He considered the curves in the tunnel were
highly objectionable, and taking also the circumstance of the
gradient being 1 in 73 into view, there was no .doubt this passage
through the tunnel would be attended with grey inconvenience,
if not with danger. He was of opinion that the tunnelling could
not be executed fur less _than 501. per yard. The increased ex-
pense of working the line the whole distance to Edinburgh would
be ten per cent. The proposed detour would ne,t, in his opinion,
afford any corresponding advantages to the great inconvenience and
expense that would be incurred, and would des tray the objects of
the Cale lonian Railway as a direct trunk line irrto Scotland
Mr. Foster, mining engineer, deposed that he had had c,ensi-
'• "

the Del,'

nc woul

—pass,

s coi &

at less than Gol. per yard.
Mr. M`Plice, who had suiveyed the intended branch, entirely
corroborated Mr. Locke's evidence.

Mr. Pare was then called to show the influence which the con-
struction of the Dolvine branch would have on the general traffic of
the trunk line.

above seventy feet high. The expense of rails will be 101. per ton,
included in Mr. Peto's contract. The slopes are to 1, wholly
unobjectionable, considering the nature of the country.
Richard Till, examined by Mr. GIRDIN—Is Secretary of the
Norwich and Brandon and Yarmouth and Norwich lines, now
amalgamated. These companies have been authorised by the
sanction of their Directors to lease the Thetford and Bury line, if
constructed—four per cent. and a share in the profits being, as
usual, the terms.
A formal recapitulation of Sir John Rennie's evidence was then
given to prove compliance with the standing orders, and confirma.
tion of the traffic, distanee, and time tables made, and the Com-
mittee adjourned.

•
•Mr. W. Byers said he was a surveyor of turnpike-roads between
Dundee and Strathmore. He was employed in the months of
August, September, and October in the past year, and in March
in the present, to take the traffic on the route of this line of rail.
way. He was engaged a fortnight in each of the first two
months, four weeks in September, and a fortnight in March.
The vehicle passengers, according to his calculation for the year,
were 86,181 ; the foot passengers were 130,130. The latter item
included persons who travelled in carts. The total receipts from
the passage traffic he estimated at 19,8191 45., allowing the vehicle
passengers at 11,4 d. per mile each ; the foot passengers at Id.; and
adding, as it was usual, 100 per cent. for the expected increase
of traffic. Before the formation of the Arbroath and Forfar
line there was only one coach, yet the passengers carried by
that line in 1843 were 81,825. On the Forfar and Newtyle line
the number carried was 54,812. The latter railway was also
through a county where previously there was scarcely any
traffic. His estimate of goods to be carried was 60,000 tons ;
this did not include coal and lime, a very large quantity of which
would be carried along the line. The witness then went at some
length into the number of cattle, sheep, and lambs, taken from
out the district in the direction of Perth ; the number of which
he represented to be very large. The total receipts from all these
sources he calculated at 36,858, and allowing 16,500/. for the
working of the line, or 45 per cent., 7 per cent, would remain for
the capital invested.
This witness was subjected to a long cross-examination, at the
close of which the Committee adjourned till twelve o'clock to-
morrow.

The evidence on both sides having been cloned,
The CLIIIIIMAN said he had been desired lay the Committee to
state, as the precut inquiry had been made to afford them suffi-
cient Ir.forurati n in arriving at a proper decision, that they
wished to express their satisfaction at the creditable manner in
which the engineers on either side had conducted their surveys,
and at the ready willingness that had been evinced by the diffe-
rent competing parties in falling in with the views entertained
by the Committee.
Mr. lIILDYARD then proceeded to address the Committee on be-
half the Edinburgh and Glagow Railway Company. It was ob-
jected on their behalf that the forks on the Caledonian line had
been carried farther north in their point of divergence than had
been contemplated by the Commissioners appointed by Government
for the purpose alone of interfering with the traffic on the Edin-
burgh and Glasgow Railway. It would be recollected that the
dividends on that line since its construction did not ave-
rage more than five per cent., and it would also
be remembered by the Committee that the Union Canal Company
had been appointed carriers to compete with it. Two alterations
had been proposed by the parties for whom he appeared, which
consisted in the formation of a junction at Croy and another at
Ratho, and it had been intimated by the Committee that this was
a good arrangement. Looking also at ti,e differential arguments as
between the Caledonian and the Dumfries Railways it would
be recollected by the Committee that a line had al-
ready been laid down to Kilmarnock and Dalteith—that a
Bill for making a line to Hawick would be read a third time this
very day. The preamble for making a railway from Kilmarnock
to Cumnock had been passed; it could not in his opinion be pos-
sible for the Committee to entertain any doubt that the distances
between Hawich and Carlisle and Curaneck and Carlisle must
necessarily in a very short period be connected together. As re-
spected the effect of a litre through the Delvine-pass, it was evident
that the whole traffic from north to south would be continued
from Canonbridge to Carl:sle, including Dumfries an Annan. The
Learned Gentleman referred generally to evidence tendered by Mr.
Locke and Mr. Miller on the two proposed lines through the Del-
vine-pass. lie also quoted from the report of the Commissioners,
to show that it was likely that only one line would afford a remu-
nerative profit through the south of Scotland, and concluded by
warning the Committee nol to decide in favour of the Caledonian
line.
Mr. COCRIBURN then rose and addressed the Committee on be-
half of the promoters of the Caledonian line. The main question
on which the decision of the Committee rested was, which line
afforded the greatest facilities and convenience as a direct trunk
line between London and the north of Scotland. The Railway
Commissioners and the Board of Trade had both entertained the
subject, and in both of the report& that had been issued, the
Nithsdale Railway had been disapproved of, and the Caledonian line
had received the preference. It was, perhaps, a matter entitled
to some attention to consider how the public had been Interested

GROUP F.

THE :LONDON, WORCESTER, AND SOUTH

sTAa.rrost,DSHXIZE R,A.T.I.VIALY.

GROUP KK.
LIVERPOOL. AND HURT LINE.

-
(Continued from our Afternoon Edition of yesterday.)
Mr. Asstwoarn gave evidence on his direct examination, show-
ing that frequent delay had occurred on the Liverpool and Man-
chester line, so that his goods were often detained four or even six
days by the railway, and he was consequently subjected to great
losses. Sometimes his machinery was idle, waiting for his goods,,
when he wished to execute large continental orders, In which dis-
patch was of the last importance.
Mr. George Gordon, land-agent at Bury, was well acquainted
with the Liverpool and Bury line, all the way from Wigan to
Rochdale. A considerable quantity of hemp and twist were sent
from Bolton and Bury to Wigan for manufacture. The people of
Stand sent cotton to Wigan to be woven. Bury obtained most of
its provisions from the Bolton market. The cost of travelling from
Bury to Wigan at present was 61. 6d., and occupied two hours and
a halt The distance was thirty miles by the present mode
of communication—by the road it was only seventeen miles. A
great number of people go upon pleasure excursions at Whitsun-
tide from Bury to Bolton, 3,000 vi 4,000 a week.
Here the Chairman of the Committee left to give evidence upon
another railway Committee.
Upon his return the witness proceeded to state that with a cheap
railway intercourse the third-class passengers between Bury,
Bolton, and Wigan would be immense. Approved of the projected
line. Bury was a very thriving place. The amount of raw ma-
terial imported from Liverpool to Bury was 41,778 tons, the
carriage of which was 22,7981. 85. at the present rate, which
was I Is. per ton. The cost of carriage by the projected line was
Bs. 3d., so that there would be an annual saving to the town of Bury
in this respect of 5,7441. 9s. 6d. When he spoke of Bury, he in.
eluded a circle of three miles around it. The present price of coal
at Bury varied from 10s. 2d. to ss. per ton:; at Wigan from 55.
to 2s. The carriage by the projected line would be only is. 6d.
per ton, so that the difference would be saved to the people of
Bury by the new line. The works and domestic consumption in
and about Bury would be 469,203 tons yearly, and the saving from
using Wigan coal by the proposed line would be 16,9201. Esti-
mated that the new line would, in point of traffic, be an annual
saving to the people of Bury in importing goods from Liverpool
and coal from Wigan of 23,690/. ss. 9d.
Mr. Baarror cross-examined the witness on behalf of Lord
Francis Egerton, but nothing material was elicited.
Mr. Walker, M.P. for Bury, had been a manufacturer of steam-
engines at Bury. There were five or six such works in Bury and
its neighbourhood, as well as many large print-works. Considered
the present line would be advantageous to Bury. The people of
Bury were In favour of the projected line, and presented a petition
on the previous evening in favour of the line, signed by 1,650
persons, comprising the most respectable of the inhabitants. Man-
chester was, however, the great absorbing market in that part of
the country.
Mr. Hutchinson, a cotton-spinner at Bury, gave evidence in
favour of the projected line, but said nothing new or important,
except that the postal arrangements between Liverpool and Bury
were inefficient, and that the proposed line would remedy the
evil.
Mr. W. Walker, a cotton manufacturer at Bury, and brother to
the Member for Bury, confirmed the testimony of the last witness
in every respect.
Mr. Thomas Stetten, agent to Lord Denby—Knew the line of
country through which the projected line would pass. Consi-
dered it would be highly advantageous to Bury and Wigan, as well
as to the agriculturists near Bury, as it would enable them to
obtain large quantities of the best lime and tiag.stones. There was
a dense population along the whole line, from Liverpool to Bury.
The inhabitants of Bury were almost universally in favour of the
line. Wakefield would be greatly benefited by; the line, as the
inhabitants were at present very badly supplied with coal.
Mr. Meydon said the line would greatly benefit the Rossendale
Valley, which was rather densely inhabited. Agreed with the for-
mer witnesses in the opinions they had expressed in favour of the
line, and in their calculations generally.
The Committee adjourned when this witness had concluded his
evidence.

Mr. AUSTIN (in continuation from our Afternoon Edi.
tion of yesterday) said—The London and Birmingham Company
came before the House offering to make a trunk line, and by so
doing they were setting an example to the other great railway
companies in the kingdom. If the Honourable Chairman
and the other Honourable Members of the Committee ware
in the habit of sitting on Canal Committees, they would
find the London and Birmingham Railway Company were now
offering to carry out, though not compelled, the wishes
of the Legislature in railway extension. The ques-
tion of competition, ;or as he should say, the question of
rivalry, did arise in the present case, and it was for the Committee
to decide which of the two lines would be of most advantage to the
public. In his opening speech he laid bare the whole subject—he
pointed out the great advantages that would result to the large
tract of country through which the London and Birmingham line
would run. His arguments on these grounis were not refuted by any
of the arguments advanced the day before by his Learned Friend.
True, he talked much of competition. The competition talked of
by Mr. Cockburn would in effect be this, that it would enable the
stronger company to demand terms which it would not be for the
interest of the public, because it would not be for the interest of
the smaller company, to accept. For instance, in the case of the
broad gauge being laid down to Liverpool, the Grand Junction
would be enabled to demand terms from the London and Bir-
mingham Company which it would not be for the interest of
that Company, to accept, and upon the terms being rejected the
result would be, that slow trains would be placed on the narrow
gauge rails to Liverpool with quick trains upon the broad gauge.
That would be the effect of the competition talked of by the
other side. The Grand Junction Company,' in complain-
ing before the Committee of the London and Birming-
ham, would make it out that they had no interest in the carrying
the seat_ Western scheme. How was this proved ? Was it by
_ „

Chester din&, -Ted -Then wnlppiiir'Ar`titifilr fare-3 —a-Tter
they had got the traffic into their hands ? They
had raised their tolls and charges after getting this line into their
hands; and so also would the Great Western, if they were fortu-
nate enough to get this line; and they would then be acting in
conjunction with the Grand Junction Company. This was a
pretty example of the competition so much talked of. Much
had been adduced on the other side about the line to
Holyhead or - Forttlyrillacn, so as to torn a station foi
the connexion with Ireland. It was an argument
of no weight; it was an argument fully answered by the already ex-
isting line to Holyhead. The Government proved by the contract
with the Chester and Holyhead Company that the advantages spoken
of by the Learned Counsel for the Great Western Company were
of no consideration, in fact of no available benefit to the connexion
with Ireland. They had amply proved it by entering
into two contracts with the existing line to Holyhead—one
for seven years and one for five years. Would Government
enter into such contracts for the conveyance of the mails, which
was a matter of the greatest consequence? The arguments for
this scheme of connecting the county by a nearer communication
provided, said a few of his Learned Friend's witnesses, that it
would be found that Portdynllaen was nearer to a part of Ire-
land than Holyhead. Here was the subject of the North Wales
line left in futuro, all depending on contingencies—one of those
contingencies being the carrying of the line now under consi-
deration. It was well to suppose that such contingencies would
act very much in their favour with the Committee, because an
impsrtant portion of their good intentions hinged upon the result
of this inquiry. He was sure the Ittrisig arguments regarding this
connexion with Ireland would have no weight with the Right
Hon. Chairman, nor with any Hon. Member of the Committee.
The result of the inquiry would be, ha felt satisfied, on the merits
of the question. It was sought to make it appear that this North
Wales- line was an object of national importance. If it were,
indeed, an object of national importance to make Port-
dynllaen a packet station for communication with the
sister country, let the Government take it up, and pay the ex.
penses of the scheme out of the public funds. But it was not to be
supposed that the Committee would allow the Great Western Corn.
parry to carry out their intentions,- however theoretically valuable
in their minds, at the expense of the people of Worcester. Let
not the people of Worcester be pltindered by the scheme, but, as he
said before, let the national object be carried out by those
who had the interests of the nation really at heart.
The Learned Counsel then remarked that the traffic on the North
Wales line would never pay the Great Western nor any other
Company. With regard to the difference of gauge and the
superiority of the broad gauge engines over the narrow, it had
been proved by Mr. Stephenson, the very first engineer of this
country, that there were engines on the London and Birmingham
line which, in point of speed, equalled the broad gauge
engines. The Learned Counsei then went into the engineering
merits of the line, and concluded by calling on the Committee to
reject the scheme for the Great Western Company, and declare
the preamble of the Bill for the London and Birmingham Com-
pany proved.
The room was then cleared, and after some time occupied In
deliberation, it was announced to the parties that the decision
would be given at twelve o'clock to morrow.
The Committee then adjourned.

GROUP L.

in the two lines placed before them. On the Caledonian line there
was not a single dissentient landowner; and without detracting
from the merits of either line, it would appear that the promoters
of the Dumfries line were at present without any scheme for con-
necting Hawick with Carlisle, and the various contingencies
upon which such proposed communication depended, ren-
dered it unlikely that it ever would be made. As the
supposition of the making of the Hawick line depended
almost entirely on the Dumfries line, it was a question whether the
Hawick line would yield with the Dumfries line similar facilities of
traffic as the Caledonian. The various circumstances under
which the preamble of the Bill foe the Hawick line had been
passed were then recapitulated by the Learnhd Counsel, and from
the severe nature of its gradients, curves, and tunnels, he contended
it could never be made available for the accommodation of the
through traffic. If this was the fact, the case for the promoters
of the Dumfries line would fall entirely to the ground. Thus far
he had spoken on the comparative advantages of the lines to
Edinburgh, and the districts in that part of Scotland. As re.
garded Glasgow and Paisley, the difference in point of distance
between the lines was fully ten miles in favour of the Caledonian.
When it was said by the opposing party how important it was
that Dumfries should be on the main line, it should be remem-
bered that Dumfries was not a manufacturing town, and
that its connexion with London and Glasgow was not of insuperable
importance. It was admitted that Dumfries was hot on the main lines
but then its proximity to Glasgow and London wasrendered as ad-
vantageous on the Caledonian line as on the competing line. As
to Annan it had only a small population and but little commerce,
and from its situation on the Solway the navigation was rendered
exceedingly difficult, and there was no data on which to ground the
assumption that it would be an improving port, or that the Caledo-
nian llue should be rejected because it slid not accommodate it so
fully as the Dumfries line. It was ridiculous to suppose that pas.
sengers going from Carlisle to Liverpool would go by steamers from
Annan. No man in his senses would entertain the idea of
travelling north sixteen miles from Carlisle to Annan, to be con-
veyed by steam-boats to Liverpool, where a direct railway corn.
munication already existed between Carlisle and Liverpool, and
yet on the traffic-tables of the Dumfries it had been taken for
granted that passengers would go in this way, and the number of

GROUP FF.
THE EDINDURGH AND NORTHERN
RAILWAY.
(Continued ftom our Afternoon Edition of yesterday.)

Mr. Marshall, an accountant at Edinburgh, proved that the ag-
gregate amount of population on or near to the whole line was.—
towns, 303,645 ; counties, 968,980; and parishes, 74,401.
Mr. R. Barlis, an experienced land valuer and factor, proved that
the value of the land to be taken and permanently occupied by the
railway was 40,0171. 2s. Id. The sewerage land would cost
5,452 d. Is. Bd. The estimated damage which would be done to
houses and buildings on the line would be 8,4701. and the value of
the growing:wood on the line, which had nearly arrived at maturity,
he estimated at 9751. 18s. 2d. He estimated the temporary damage
which would be done to property adjacent to the line at 5,4911.
10s. Id.

The remainder of the day was occupied with the cross-examina-
tion of Mr. Gardner, the engineer, whose evidence in chief was
given yesterday.
_ _ _

This witness was cross.examined at groat length by Mr. Sergeant
WRANGIII&M, with the apparent object of showing tho Committee
that the line would:materially interfere with the residential mansions
and domains of several of the nobility and gentry living in the
neighbourhood of the railway.
The Committee adjourned shortly after four o'clock till to..
morrow.

PORTSMOUTH ATMOSPHMRIC RAILWAY.

(Continued from our Afternoon Edition of yesterday.)
Mr. Hoskins, formerly a merchant and now assistant tide-keeper
at Portsmouth, testified to the utility of the London-bridge station,
and the great convenience whioh the third.class trains would be to
sailors paid off at the port. The mercantile intercourse had greatly
decreased since the establishment of the railway to Southampton
and the establishment of the docks. The Gosport branch had, in
his opinion, been an injury rather than a benefit, and in his exptii-
once the Southampton line was the dearest and the worst in the
kingdom. Before the competition the second-class carriages espe-
cially were of a very miserable description. The witness
also gave testimony respecting the termini similar to that
of all the other witnesses. The houses building at Landport
would bear the comparison with those in course of erection at
Portsea. On the whole he thought the atmospheric line passed
through a district far superior to that through which the other
line went. •

GROUP GG.
SCOTCH RAILWAYS. GLASGOW BIS-
TRICT.
(Continued from our Afternoon Edition of yesterday.)

Mr. Wyse, Mr. T. Whyte, a ship. builder at Portsmouth, Mr. Piing,
Mr. Colebrook, and Mr. Russell all gave similar testimony as to the
utility of the proposed line, and the facilities which it offered
for the communication with the Isle of Wight, but there was
nothing of any particular moment elicited, and the Committee was
adjourned till twelve o'clock to-morrow.

GROUP LL.
TIM LONDON AND SOITTII—WESTERN
(DIETROPOLITAN EXTENSION).
(Continued from our Afternoon Edition of yesterday.)

Mr. HILL opelaed, this morning, the case for the directors of
this line of railway. The object of the promoters was to extend the
now at Nine-elms,

100, Hungerford, and Westminster-bridges. It would be of
great benefit to the public, and be considered that the directors of
that railway had only acted in strict accordance with their duty in
having laid this Bill on their table.
Wrn. Reid was then called and examined in favour of the ex.
tension, by Mr. SMlRKE—Hestated that he was lately the Managing
Director of the Rouen and Faris line of railway. He afterwards
became Managing Director of the South-Western line, and was
identified with it when it was first introduced into Parliament.
As to the position of the present terminus the disadvan-
tages were:very great, in consequence of its great distance from
town. When it was, on a former occasion, sought to
obtain the sanction of the Legislature fur this extension
it was refused, because railways were not then as well received as
now, and it was not thought necessary to extend it, as it would in-
terfere with house property. It was cl-Aired by every Company,
and generally supposed to be beneficial, further to extend all rail-
ways, the termini of which calms - London. It was evident that
passengers would receive great benefit from this extension to some
place equally distant from Waterloo, Hungerford, and Westminster.
bridges. The original terminus of the Birmingham Railway was
at Camden-town, and it was contemplated to bring it still nearer to
London.
Oa cross examination by Mr. M. Crissmaam, he said that he would
recommend the plan to be carried out at the expense of one million
'of money, but he did not think it would be worth while to go to
any further expense. The passengers from Wandsworth to town
generally went by water. The witness was then examined as to
the comparative expense of time and money of those men of busi-
ness who travelled to town from that locality by omnibuses and
by water, and those who would travel by the proposed extension.
Mr. Burchard, a private gentleman, residing at Wardsworth,
was then examined as to the public advantage that would arise
from the extension of the present line to a terminus at a short dis-
tance from Hungerford, Waterloo, and Westminster-bridges.
On cross-examination, his evidence was in no way shaken.
Mr. Mangles was called, and stated, on examination, that it
would be of immense advantage to the inhabitants of Guildford to
be brought to a terminus as near London as possible. As to tolls
there was a great inconvenience arising from turnpikes near
Nine-elms, which it was necessary to keep in order to
get to certain parts of the town from the present one.
A terminus near Waterloo-bridge would be very favourable
to the Dover and Kent Railways if it were hereafter found prac-
ticable to cross the river and make a central terminus at the other
side, but, nevertheless, they would derive great advantage.
After the witness was briefly cross-examined by Mr. MONTAGUE
CHAMBERS, the Committee rose.

GROUP N.
cOnNWILI.X. RAILWAY.
Tho evidence of Par. Kendall (continued front our Afternoon
Edition of yesterday)_

The traffic was very great over the bridge in boat, and in stormy
weather he had seen the sea dash over it. He was quite satis-
fied that, with some improvement, a railway train might be
carried over on it with safety. Five piles might be erected at
equal distances, on which a roadway might be placed, so that
the trains could run across on a level, and the boat could be
drawn across between the piles with great precision. Of course,
such a mode of transit would occupy much time, and could not be
effected without much mechanical arrangement. the trains could
not be conveyed across in the boat in ten minntes. From four to
six minutes would be necessary to get them on board, eight
minutes to -cross, and four to six minutes to land them.
That would fairly represent the time which would be
required for crossing the Hamoaze;the distance being half a mile.
The delay and the expense of working this apparatus would be
about equivalent to the expense of working fifteen or sixteen miles
of a double locomotive line. With respect to the safety of the
electrical telegraph (which is to:be worked in an iron tube, placed at
the bottom DJ the Hamoaze), he conceived that ships dragging their
anchors might get them fouled on the tube and destroy the telegraph,
By Mr. Sergeant KnvuLmut—Had seen the boat or bridge
crowded with carriages, coaches, market-carts, &c. If a bridge
were: to be made over the Hamoaze, at Saltash, it would be a
most expensive one, as it would cost from 100,000/. to 200,0001.,
and would have to be upwards of a hundred feet from the water
that ships of 800 or 600 tons might
pass under it, but he would
not recommend the carrying of a railway over the Hamoaze, at
Saltash.
Mr. Joseph Locke, engineer to the South- Western Railway;

examined by Mr. Rows--Considered that the line could not be
worked in some places as a double locomotive line with precision,
economy, nor safety. It was unquestionably the most dangerous
line he had ever seen. He was ignorant of the county, and gave his
opinion on the sections which had been submitted to him. At
Penryn the gradient was 1 in 40 for two miles, and at some places
there were radii of 15 and 17 chains. On such gradients as those,
and on such sharp curves, thirty miles an hour could not be worked
with safety to those in the trains or to whatever was; in them.
The gtadients going up from the water to Eldad were 1 in 29 and
lin 30. A floating.bridge could not be otherwise than a most
inconvenient thing on a railway, and he would rather go miles
round than cross a river in such a way. The dividing of the train
would occupy from five to ten minutes at least, and the loss of time
in accomplishing the whole passage would occupy half an hour,
measuring it by railway time.
By Mr. Sergeant KINGLAILE—Nover was over the ferry as a
consulting engineer to one of the proposed Cornwall railways.
Mr. Robert Stevenson, C. E., considered that the line could not
be worked with any regularity from the irregular nature of the
inclines. Gradients only used on extreme occasions by engineers
were repeated on the line over and over again,
and trains could not
go with safety at a greater speed than twelve miles an hour.
He was opposed to the line passing the Harnoare, as proposed, and
would rather carry a line fifteen miles in another direction than
cross it. The central line did not contain the irregularities he had
specified in the coast line. No greater speed could be safely attained
on an incline of 1 in 60 than fifteen miles an hour.
Mr. Bidder, C.E., corroborated a great portion of the preceding
evidence.
Captain Plumridge, M.P. for Falmouth, was of opinion that the
carrying of a railway by a draw-bridge across Penryn creek would
offer great obstacles to the navigation. Trains would most likely
be running over at high water, when it was necessary that the ships
should pass on their route without delay. The construction of
their terminus on the Mylor side, in the event of the Ordnance
refusing their consent to the bridge, would also offer an obstruction
to the navigation. His constituents were averse to both.
The Committee then adjourned.

The Committee then took the Glasgow, Garnkirk, and Cant-
bridge line, which being also unopposed, was passed and ordered
to be reported, as was a branch of the Glasgow, Kilmarnock, and
Ayr linelextending to Cumnock—a total distance of eighteen
miles, at an estimate of 350,0004
GLASGOW JUNCTION RAILWAY.
•

passengers had been doubled. Another question, relative
to the communication between Scotland and the coast of
Ireland, and looking at the relative distances be-
_ _.

tween Edinburgh and Glasgow, and the coast of Ire-
land, it was incontestably evident that ;the distance
by the Caledonian line was some fifty miles shorter than by the
Dumfries line. The Clydesdale branch was a very important one
when looked at in connexion with the Caledonian line, and would
bring in a great increase of traffic along the line. It was unde-
niable that it was a matter of the greatest importance that there
should be no intervention of any obstacle in the free and through
traffic from north to south, and he contended that as regarded the
Glasgow junction, promoted by the Dumfries Company,
the greatest obstacles did exist on that junction, inas-
much as it was impossible for it to be made, according
to the evidence of Mr Vignelles, their own witness. There was
nothing to be said In support of the Dumfries line, either as
regarded its facilites as a branch line, or its local accommodation.
A point, however, had been casually mooted by Mr. Miller, which
had swelled into a considerable object, the intention of which was
to embarrass the Caledonian line in its fundamental principle of
forming a direct main trunk line. He alluded to the proposed branch
through the Delvine-pass, and contended that, from the unfavour-
able nature of the gradients in the tunnel, there was
wouldthe most appalling
laopsapaolflinagt
character
rofbreacibuileitnytly of
occurring,aand catastrophef
there
The Learned Couple' then read extract from the report of the
least ten miles in the direct distance to Edinbnrgh and Glasgow.

Mr. Sergeant ANDIIEVrS then opened this case for the promoters
of the Bill. He described the object of the projectors as being in-
tended to connect the Edinburgh and Glasgow Railway on the north
side of the Clyde at Glasgow with the Glasgow, Kilmarnock and Ayr
on the south side. The extent of the intended line was only a
mile, and he would briefly describe that portion of the city of Glas-
gow through which it passed. The Learned Counsel then ex.
plained that the line was intended to pass through the town by
tunnelling, and in some cases on piers, and it was proposed to cross
the Clyde at a point Immediately above the shipping station. There
were many opponents to the Bill, but he hoped that none of
their objections would be found of a very serious description.
Mr. Thomas Phillips, of Leith, was then called to prove the
advantages of the proposed line. His examination was just com-
menced when the Committee adjourned till to-morrow.

GROUP K.
DIRECT NO7R,V7ICII LINE.
The evidence of Sir John Rennie (continued from our Afternoon

Edition of yesterday)—

Cross.examined by Mr. WHATELET, Q.C.—To effect the junc-
tion with the Bury and Ipswich line, a slight alteration in the level,
and a further length of line back would be necessary, for the
purpose of making the viaducts, by sinking piles of fifty feet, and
thus making the base, now very inferior, good and unob-
jectionable; forty-five feet Is not a very great height for
an embankment. Oa the Orem Western Railway there is one

GROUP R.
(Continued from our A fternoon Edition of yostorda7),
The Committee then proceeled to hear the case 6/ DI smith,
of Drogheda, iIA regard to compensation for darSage t.at was

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDA I EVENING, JUNE 4, 1845.

alleged to be done to his property by the railway; but, after the
hearing of evidence, the Committee decided that there was no
ground for the claim set up by Mr. Smith.
It ;Pas at this stage of the business suggested that, before going
further, the Committee had better go into the subject of the agree-
ment entered into between Sir John M`Neill and Sir John
Rennie, and referred to in a former report. The agree-
ment, according to the statement of Counsel for the Bel-
fast Junction, was only to bind that Company not to oppose the
Newry and Enniskillen, and vice veraa, as far as the standing orders
were concerned ; whereas the reply of Counsel for the latter was,
that it had reference to all the proceedings in Parliament.
After hearing the statement of both engineers, the Committee
decided thut they did not tink the agreemeht extended further
than the suspension of opposition in regard to the Standing Orders
Committee. _

The CHAIRMAN said that if these two Companies could not
come to an arrangement before the meeting of the Committee
to-morrow, they would proceed with the Dundalk and Ennis-
killen line. _ _ _

The Committee then adjourned till tomorrow at twelve o'clock.

GROUP SS.

COVENTRY, DEDW-011.TH, AND NUNEATON
R.IIXL"VETAY.
(Continued from our Afternoon Edition of yesterday.)

GROUP W.
BILAYTON AND GOOLE RAILWAY.
(Continued from our Afternoon Edition of yesterday.)

The Committee then adjourned till twelve o'clock tomorrow.

GROUP V.

To Mr. TALBOT—Has found London clay very troublesome.
After a few unimportant questions from the other counsel,
_. _

The Committee adjourned at half-past four.

The witness was cross-examined at some length by Mr. D&NIEL,
with a view of showing that the progress of the line would inter-
fere with a place called Gosford.green, where the poorer
inhabitants of Coventry resort for exercise and recrea-
tion. The witness admitted that the line would pass
through the green on an embankment of from 9 to 10 feet in
height, but there was a more important resort of the poor of
Coventry, called Friar's-green, which would not be interfered with,
although it was near to the station of the proposed railway.
The witness admitted that there was a succession of three curves
on the line within a mile and a half of the station, but as they were
on a branch, and not a main line, they were in no wise objection-
able. The line passed near to, but not through, a place called
Steak-green and Steak-heath. He was not aware whether
the inhabitants of Coventry had a right of common on these
places, nor was be aware that cattle strayed uninterruptedly from
the Heath to the Green. The line would certainly pass through
Barrew's.green but the deviation line would not in the least
affect Stoak-green. He had heard, but was not aware of
his own knowledge, that there was a right of pasturage
on these greens, but, in whom the right was vested he did not
know. He proposed to protect Barrow's-green by a gate and a
man, and there would, consequently, be no obstruction to the pro-
gress of the cattle from the Green to the Heath. The deviation
line commenced at the junction on the Birmingham line, and ex-
tended to a place called Stoak, a distance of about a mile and a
quarter. This deviation had been marked out to meet the views
of the Corporation of Coventry, who objected to the original line.
On one part of the line in the neighbourhood the land had sunk
14 feet, but he was not aware that it was still sinking. Every
precaution, however, would be taken against contingencies of this
nature.

The witness was cross-examined by Mr. Summon's, on behalf
of the London and Birmingham Company, with a view of showing
that the line originated with himself, and not with any persons re.
sident in the district through which the line will pass. He said
he had never constructed a railway under his owu sole and imme-
diate superintendence, but had frequently and repeatedly acted as
a sub-engineer. He admitted being the engineer to three new
schemes coming before Parliament next session.
The cross-examination had not terminated when the Committee
adjourned.

Mr. John Strickland, corn-factor near Snaith, had bought corn
and sold it at Leeds in preference to Wakefield. The facility of
going to Wakefield was as great as to Leeds. The reason he pre-
ferred Leeds was that he got cash in Leeds, and was obliged, if he
sold his corn at Wakefield, to take a three.menths' bill.
Cross-examined by Mr. Witams—Had signed a petition in
favour of the Wakefield and Goole line, but did so under the im-
pression that the Brayton and IGoole line was thrown out by the
Committee on Standing Orders.

By Mr. Buss—The average quantity of corn which he pur-
chased weekly was 100 quarters. (A petition was here handed to
witness against the proposed line.) The people whose signatures
were attached to that petition were respectable, but he should like
to know whether those who signed it knew what it was they were
signing? an his part of the country they never read any petition
they signed. He never in his life read any Parliamentary petition
he signed.—(A laugh.)
Mr. Douglas, lived at Drax. Was a cattle and hay dealer, and
butcher; occasionally took his cattle to Leeds and Wakefield.
Sent a proportion of ten to one of them to Leeds.
The CHAIRMAN thought it unnecssary to purrue the line of exa-
mination with regard to the advantages which the proposed line
would confer on those who lived in the immediate neighbourhood
of the dsstrict though which it passed. He thought that was self-
evident, and thatit might be almost assumed, except, of course, dis-
sentient landowners.

Mr. KNowLes then said he would ask the 'aline!s no further
questions.
Mr. Douglas, cross.examined by Mr. BLISS—Sent 500 beast.
yearly to Leeds, and the produce of two acres of potatoes.
Mr. Samuel Wilkinson lived at Harrogate, and had also lived at
Knaresborouji. There were a great many flax mills that neigh-
bourhood. It the proposed line were made it Would confer Immense
advantages, on the valley of the Nidd. The Wakefield and Goole
line would be of no use to them—it went in another direction.
Knew the town of Wetherby, and all the country in that neigh.
bourhood. This line would benefit all-that district.

By the CHAIRMAN—The quantity of flax imported into the dis.
trict was from 3,000 to 4,000 tons annually.
Cross-examined by Mr. WILKINS—AII the flax did not come by
Hull ; some came by Stockport and Liverpool.
Mr. Joseph Jackson, omnibus driver from Goele to the Howdeu
station, was five times to and fro every day between those places;
another omnibus went four times. Upon an average he carried
240 passengers a week to and fro for the last twelve months. The
principal part of the passengers he took to the Bowden station went
to the west trains.

Thomas Dunhill was a coachman and coach proprietor at Wake-
field. Knew the traffic between Wakefield and Goole and Wakefield
and Hull up to 1838. His coach did not pay. There was not
traffic sufficient to support a conveyance unless the individual who
was proprietor of it also acted as coachman? There was only
at nre‘ent_ on the market day, which went to

Cross-examined by Mr. Wuxi:vs—There was no coach between
Leeds and Goole at the time he referred to.

- Mr. Joseph Bottomley, lived near Pontefract, and was a
lime burner, coal carrier, and farmer. Burnt his lime at Hudders-
field. He did not consider that the statement made by the witnesses
who had deposed tc benefits which the competing Wakefield and
Goole line would confer on the lime trade of Knottingley and
neighbourhood were correct. So far as he was• concerned he
would not use it, nor did he consider it would be generally ad-
vantageous to the interests of the community of that district. He
thought the Wakefield and Goolc line was a preposterous one.
Cross-examined by Mr. Wmains—Charged from 14s to 16s. per
ton at Huddersfield for his lime. It was sold at Knottingicy at
the pit at 6s. to 7s. per tan. Did not know the Manchzster and
Leeds line delivered this lime at Brigghouse (via Huddersfield) for
6s. 6d. per ton.

Mr. Sherrill was called to prove that the rates charged on the
Hull and Selby line were less than those charged by the Manchester
and Leeds line.

Cross-examined by Mr. WILKINS—The Leeds and Selby and
Hull and Selby carried at these reduc:d rates, notwithstanding the
badness of the gradients on those lines.
The cross.examination of this witness was interrupted by the
announcement of the Speaker being at prayers.

THE MANCHESTER, SHEITIELD, AND
CHESTY.. Tar onn IZAMIATAY.

The Committee, consisting of the O'Conor Don, chairman, Sir
John Rae Reid, Sir D. Norreys, Mr. Hope Johnstone, and Mr.
Davies, met to.day at half-past eleven, when
Mr. Haw, kshaw, C.E., was re-called and examined with re.
gard to the proposed line. He corroborated the evidence of Mr.
Vignolles and of Mr. Gibbs, given on a previous day,
with respect to the advantages of the line, and the few engineering
difficulties to be met with. He was in the habit of working much
more severe gradients than those on this line.
James Thomson—Was an assistant in Sir John M'Neill's office,
and was well acquainted with the working of the mineral lines in
the neighbourhood of Glasgow. There were many heavier
gradients there than on this line. He might instance one, the
Ballochney line, where heavy coal.trains were worked on an incline
of 1 in 70. He saw not the least difficulty in working this line.
Mr. Rastrick, civil engineer, gave exactly similar evidence.
Wiliam Fairbank—Had had considerable experience in the
making of estimates on railway lima, and he had done so in this case.
He had assisted Mr. Vignolles, and returned the whole expense cf
the line at 400,0001.
Mr. J. Nowell had been a contractor for many years in works
of this nature, and had, therefore, great experience in those mat-
ters. He had carefully examined the estimates furnished in this
case, and was convinced that they were exceedingly correct. He
should be very happy 'to contract for the tunnel at 421. 10s.
per yard, as be was convinced that the stratum
through which it passed was most favourable for en-
gineering purposes. He should be equally ready to under-
take any of the other works at the estimates for which they were
taken. He spoke from experience acquired in such extensive
works as the Bristol and Gloucester, and other great lines.
The witness
,was under examination when the Speaker was
announced at prayers, and the Committee adjourned.

GROUP X.
LONDON AND YORE LINE.
(continued from our Afternoon Edition of yesterday.)
Mr. Hawkshaw, engineer, was called and examined—ls the engi
neer of the Manchester and Leeds, and several other lines. That
part of the London and York line between Bawtry and Wakefield
and Bawtry and York was laid out under his superintendence.
Considers the prices for the work very high, and higher than any
he bag heard this session. The line presented no
peculiar difficulty. Did not think it possible that the
iron for the London and York line could cost the price put
down for it, namely, 12/. 10s. Has bought iron himself recently at
91. and IN. per ton. delivered. Iron was an article that fluctuated
very much in price ; but the present rate was as high as he bad
known it for many years. This witness underwent a long exa-
mination upon the abstract principle, as to the amount of extra
power required by trains ascending inclines of various gradients,
from 1 in 200 upwards; he also deposed that the station proposed
to be made at York was to cross the York and North Midland
station at a level, and it was the only eligible mode that could be
adopted, taking all circumstances into consideration, He was
cross-examined by the counsel for the different competing lines
for the purpose of ascertaining the mode by which passengers were
to be accommodated with conveyances along the different
branches from the main line, assuming that a certain number only
of trains started from London—in answer to which, the witness
proposed to avoid the difficulty by increasing the number of trains.
He was next asked in reference to the carriage of heavy goods;
assuming that the carriage of goods conveyances by the London and
Birmingham line cost 3,4001. per mile, and did not carry coals, the
Counsel wished to know from the witness whether his opinion
was that 3,0001. per mile on the London and York line would
be sufficient to cover the expense of carriage conveyance, taking
into account that 500,000 tons of coals per annum were to be
conveyed by this line, as well as a vast Inantity of
manure, stone, lime, &e., and the Company finding
their own carriages. The witness said at first he thought 3,000/, a
mile a fair sum; but he subsequently said he could not tell without
going into a long calculation, and the Counsel did not press the
question.

_
Mr. J. K. Brunel, engineer—Had examined the estimates for all
the works on the London and York line, and considered all the
prices very liberal. Knew of no difficulty or danger in crossing
the York and North Midland station at York.

STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE.
This Committee assembled to-day shortly after two o'clock.
The decisions were all respecting amendments to Bills, conse.
quently the fate of no Bill was involved.

LONDON AND BRIGHTON RAILWAY.—It is with
regret we learn that Mr. Mackenzie, the Secretary of this
hne, is about to retire from the post in which we are sure
that he must have commanded the respect of all who
had occasion to communicate with him. Mr. Mackenzie
quits his post with the warmest wishes of the Directors for
his success in the profession which he has in view.
JOURNALISM,—.A. newspaper is the only instru-
ment which can drOp the Same thought into a thOUSand minds at
the same moment.--De Zocquevfile.