The Sun.
London, England, 1820-10-14 00:00:00

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be reit
moved--Z am as ready as any man to say
was thei'r' duty to 'secure as far as possible
e'..C°H.tinuance of ,thewitnesses until the close
of the proceedingL--:and, I am also ready to
admit the circinnstance towhich we have re-
countryore sehg din Rastelli out of the
namelyf
the decision, was highly blame-
;. but I must acquit myself from any know-
tge of the transaction,-.—(hear, hear !)—and
raust say it was as much unknown to the Attor-
illeY-General and 'Solicitor-General 'as it was to
:'-`„slf• The transaction Was this :—This Ras-
tri'it had been employed under 'this Milan orn-
Osi"1 as :the Messenger of the
.COMm
sohad been employed to bring over witnesses
h. this country to be examined at your 'Lord-
for'Ps Bar. On the adjournment of the House
di three weeks,- one bf the agents in this cause
so think that the purpose of sending some per-
n
cn" to Milan, wonld he better performed by this
"urier) Rastelli, than any other individual. lie
;as
accordingly sent with a stipulation that he
aas to return long before the House was to meet
thein•
,I think it was a wrong arrangement, but
abi motives of the person were good and htmour-
ftlll7. 1. ain convinced Rastelli was. sent in the
c.on,vitoctniaon that he would return in time for
1.1.;s Attorne
As soon as this fact was known to
Yr-General, he instantly directed a
Purpose to be sent from this country for the
any.P°sse of. bringing Rastelli back. If there is
exists to defeat the ends of justice, it
/411131sor:ot, with us.. -This was the plain state 7
do ,„,_`tne Lase, and he disclaimed the insinu,a-
aa "inch had been thrown Out, that there was
act
of deslire to.prevent. the course of justice. The
but I, sending Rastelli away was blameable ;
°'rever erroneous it might have been, it was
to c
considered whether it had arisen from an
had Per motive or not. He.believed himself it
all ,-,7°t arisen from an improper motive ; but, at
caro ;e4tsi the Government on hearing the cir-
to bsria4ce had instantly dispatched a messenger
for tflilg Rastelli back. With these. observa-tions,
wouldei truth of which he, pledged himself, he
and h„seave the subject before their Lordships,;,
Vr
there
a,
would. Confidently ask them, whether
and jun any thing at all to warrant the strong
vast u arnroatory implications which had
_been_
P°4 the Government by the Noble Lord
Apostleth,
I heTarquis IV.
of LANSDOWN said, it was one of
Nobi:".,s, of this proceeding; that men like the
Yves 'C'arl Were necessitated to defend. them-
,Whirst they were to do., justice to the
G°tierEarl by acquitting him and his. Majesty's
tioo.l'lnent of the conspiracyof the act in qnes-
t,Nlit theyi_ were bound, to consider the effect of_
l'er..-ne` itself on the interests of the Illustrious
*trup%4l at the Bar and if, notwithstandiog the
~s
gethe Government to keep the' witnesses to-.i
way it of their agents had sent one of them away, '
itioe;`r,P,rnPer the Lords should visit the Illus-
.ol ti; `--lientat the Bar with all the conseqUences
pe,,s e criminality of these, agents, which the•
ttp "s who employed them were obliged to stand
Lo aaild disavow He entreated the House of
laid t 0 confine themselves to the rules they had
ft"r th"'°. It was understood by the
..Coungel
'orth, e- Queen, that the witnesses should ,be
‘lsks:til°a ~,ling to answer to re-examination: That
!testa %rule laid down, and what was he to un-
'l.astc,ll:''• when such. an important witness as
was called upon and found to be absent
away by the ersons who made the ar-
for
tevedrxnensettee vas
to keep his
,frivolous
phi England ? The excuse
ab • •
y°lous. Was it to be be-
tillsatisfiethat the people of Milan. could not be
100 d rdthey'saw the honest face of Rastelli?
ilvlllie'lle4,l4cel in truth, could be made for an act,
I.'our n`,,ue Noble ,Earl, with honour and can-
t"' tl,,'Lllitted. to be an error., Whatever might
of error, it ought not to operate
th Tite L*janr.Y, of the Queen.
x4IANCELLOR expressed a hope that
Cve.ft due to his character would induce
.°4 711`ishiPs to 'acquit him of ary participa-
a(l44" e act of sending Rastelli out of the
-111 , When that witness was sent away, the
At
thp, nnderstoOd all he .ought to have done.
same timeit appeared that the private.
e tat er of the acrent must lead to ,a conclusion
Lae
,1 Li into act Was error of jadgment, rather than
;141 n-07nkti°11- The Noble and Learned Lord
ae "Iv who it was. He.could only say
e 144 trot Was
the, result of bad judgment. If it
z-i4l44.‘tetnr at.iib.ad motive, it
.deserved the worst
dances Liie House, under all the circum-
tiltsl'eets:2val bOund to take care injury was not
4steili'illY.PersOn. The proposition was to call
I,?rdl+llin°t4e bar.; that could not be 'done. His
here • observed, that he should speak
ntl,-"'rsaehili,-Inents fairly,-7-14 thought that con 7
allowance. ought to - be' made for
1:?•t " evidence. If the Witness could
'Ps brought to the bar, th;!ir Lord-
"ght
- t feel that. a future examination
° of
I,at (la so Inucli advantage as an examination
4,1,14011 e . they' might give the Illustrious
it," large! benefit of that circumstance liberally.
to th). ; but, good God ! could they clops-
‘,°teetil'a illustrious person if they closed the
Q':ingling? No man could say that he was
Sa er if he recommended
osed. the proceeding to
N:s!%t that did not, hear any Noble' Lord
v.:;;;:t:dtii:(6)::;°:11:isof proceeding ; but if it was.
~-`)cek,rdi 3 he should beg to know where any
degcription could go ? The
tr;lt'earhed Lord concluded, his obser-
k44l4l,jt Calling. on the Lords, as a judicial
make. all allowance that could be
• l':1
44 der the circumstances which had oc-
he
``rl
I,,ced , of CARNARVON said, they were then
a situation which, compelled their
Vat retie
to put an .end to the proceeding.
* otl • "tied
Of din Y, could ••
the Illustrious Person.have ?
11,3"1is osemahled but to put an end to the whole
43W 8 to".ol_,oxious transaction.—(Hear, hear !)
$j ho,,rrti the case ? Her Majesty's defence
114;1°11e. tif,ted substantial justice could not
'too • -"` never could be restored to .the
'4.(.)'' 014 which it stood. Not the Noble
4111 PPo 't •
s' e) but smile persbn connected
-verolnent) had sent away a material

witness, and were they not to say there is an
end of the case t Had they not withstood Jong
enough all publiC feeling on this proceeding—a
proceeding which had disgraced the country,
from its abominable ribaldry and falsehood ? It
would become the House of Lords to say there
is, an end of it. The Noble and Learned Lord
1-(ad recommended the House to remedy the
transaction as well as they could, but they, could
never remedy the thing unless the Bill was given
up. It was said there had been an extensive
subornation of perjury, and when the assertion
came to be proved, the witness could not be
found. He had been sent away by the .agents of
Government. Who was in fault ? Was her Ma-
jesty in fault ?—No ; some department of the
Government was in fault.. If the case could be
disgraced, it had been disgraced 'by those who
brought forward the accusation. The Bill surely
could never pass. If there was in the other
Muse of Parliament any feeling in concurrence
with their constituents, the Bill must be thrown
out, and this secondary feature did not give it
the slightest chance of success. The Noble Earl
was assured it would disgrace its supporters.
He should take the sense of the House upon the
question, whether the proceeding ought to con-
tinue. The honour of the country, in his opi-
nion, was implicated in it. The Nobly ;Earl
,concluded by moving, " That this proceeding be
adjourned to this day six months."
The LORD CHANCELLOR, in explanation, said,
he could not admit that substantial justice might
not be done. He was decidedly of opinion the
Muse could do substantial justice,_ and that the
circumstance itself might turn out favourable to
the Illustrious Person.

Lord ELLENBOROUGH expressed an opinion
that there would be great difficulty in placing
her Majesty in the situation she would stand in,
had she the power of an immediate examination
of the witness; but the House, by large and li-
beral allowance, might give her an advantage
which would be equivalent. The, proposal of
the Noble Earl to stay the proceeding would be
subversive of justice, fatal to her Majesty's cha-
racter, and in every respect contrary to that
course it was their Lordships' duty to follow.
There were two questions to. decide. First, whe-
ther her Majesty was guilty or not ; and, second-
ly, whether on the evidence heard at the Bar,
they could pass the Bill ? Every reasonable
mand would decide that the House could not
pass the Bill, unless the evidence in support of it
was so clear that it would be impossibla, for the
House of Ccmmons, regarding its own honour, to
decline passinc, it.
The Earl OrCARNARVON explained.
Earl DARNLEY suggested that. her Majesty's
Counsel be called to the Bar before the House
came to the question and asked whether any, and
if any, what injury would be sustained by post-
ponement of that re-examination of the witness
Rastelli ?

Earl GREY said, that he never rose with greater
difficulty or'under more painful feelings.than on
the present' occasion to express his sentiments,
and had he been the first to call their Lord-
ships' attention to the question before them, he
should have delivered himself with all that warmth
with which his Noble Friend did who had pre-
ceded him, For notwithstanding the explana-
tion of the Noble and Learned Lord, li, must
say that he could not see in what way it was
now possible that substantial justice could be
done. What the Noble and Learned Lora had
said was, that the abstraction of this witness at
the present moment, when it was impossible
to produce him, had inflicted an injury on
her Majesty's cause, which it' was impossible
for that House to repair. If the Queen was de-
prived of the means effectual to her defence, and
those means were not effectually supplied here-
after by some other mode, was it not the inevit-
. able 'Consequence that the defence so injured, sub-
stantial justice could not be done? He felt that
the situation of Ministers was one of great anxiety;
but feeling aA he did that there was no possible
remedy for what had been committed by the
agents of this prosecution,, he could not do other-
wise than 'support the motion of his Noble Friend.
In measuring the amount of the injury caused by
this act, it was impossible that any man conk."
beforehand know what might take place. It was
impossible that any man could say what might
not be drawn from the witness at a future pe-
riod when certain information .was supplied to
him. Under this point of, view, therefore, the
Noble and Learned Lord was sure of meet-
ing with the ' accordance of all who heard him,
when he said that an irreparable injury 'had been
done to her Majesty. His Noble Friends stated
that subornation of perjury had been proved ;
and it appeared clear that this witness Rastelli
had been employed to suborn other witnesses by
proffers of money. He went to one, which one
went to another, who again went to a third ; and
so on, till in all probability it would be proved
in the end that the testimony about the figures of'
Adam and Eve had been obtained in this manner
by force of money. Proceeding in, this way, the
conspiracy might be detected and exposed in all
its parts ; and the defence of her Majesty make,
her completely triumphant over the most foul
conspiracy that ever threatened the honour of an
individual.. The House being in that' situation
described by the Noble Lord, that substan-,
tial justice could not be done, if his Noble
Friend pressed his motion, it must have his
full assent. The fact, of this man's being with-
drawn at this moment was not only ill-judged,
but 'most inquitons. The Noble Lord opposite
(Lord Liverpool) hoped he could not be charged
with being accessary to .this flagitious act. He
;was willing to grant every-thing that could be
asked to the high character of the Noble Lord.
When the Noble Lord had given a pledge to that
House that every thing on the part of Govern-
ment should be done to further the ends of sub
tantial justice, and to keep the witnesses in the
same situation precisely as when they left the
Bar of that House, the House in consideration,
of the Noble Lord's high character; gave him full.
credit for sincerity, and accepted the pledge with
complete security, But if, after having given

that pledge all the weight of his high character,
he-found himself in a situation in which those
who were bound to his order and to support his
character, betrayed both him' and that House,
what security, he asked, could the feel in the
future pledges of the Noble Lord cat substan-
tial justice should be done ? His character
would not in future, avail him.
Lord LIVERPOOL spoke at considerable lengt

against the motion. He said, that 'it would 'ae-
grade the honour of that House to shrink from
the investigation at that period, and that, after
hearing the evidence for the accusation, and part
of the evidence for the defence, nothing could be
more injurious to the character and honour of the
Queen than to stop the proceedings. He was
willing to go the whole length, in saying, that if
the act was done intentionally, it would be a
most, flagitious act. Mit that it was iptentional,
he could not believe. Ile concluded by saying
that it would be most unwise and impolitic, and
most injurious to her Majesty the Queen, to stop
the proceedings at the present moment.
Lord MORLEY said, that the view which he
had taken, after the unfortunate necessity of en-
tering into this investigation, was, that the truth
or falsehood of the allegations contained in the
preamble of the Bill should he ascertained. For
that purpose, he had considered a Legislative
measure the most desirable course to pursue, and
not an impeachment. He trusted the Noble Lord
would not press a division upon his tpotion; as-it
was now of the gleatest importance that the in-
vestigation should be allowed to go on.
Lord ALVANLEY stated, that he never could
make up his mind to believe that the sending
away of Rastelli arose from an error of judgment,
and more particularly, if it had been- the act of
any person connected with the Milan Commission.
Lord LIVERPOOL, in a low tone o 1 voice,
which could not be distinctly heard, acknow-
ledged that Mr. Powell (one of the agents in
support of the Bill) was the person who had
sent Rastelli away.
The Earl of CARNAAVON suggested that the
House ought to hear her Majesty's Counsel on
the interest her Majesty had in the examination
of Rastelli. After the opinions expressed by
Noble Lords, he should not persist in his mo-
tion, but withdraw it in deference to that opinion.
The motion was withdrawn.

Lord BLESSINGTON spoke of the high character
of Mr. Powell, and expressed his opinion that al-
though the sending away of Rastelli was a very
improper act, yet he was.confident that when ex-
amined into, it would be found to have arisen
from no improper motive.
Lord HOLLAND said, that he owed itio himself
and to the Noble Earl over the way to state, that
he did not believe him to be directly or indirectly
a party to the sending away of this man. This
disbelief was founded upon the character which
he had preserved on all occasions and at all times.
And though in that House he was generally in
hostility to the measures of the Noble Earl, yet
he would say, that on neither side of the House
could he find a man more incapable of. such an
act. But though he would acquit him of any
thing like a conspiracy of ti4is nature, still he
did think that on this occasion, and through.
out the whole proceedings, he had undertaken
more for that House than he was able to per-
form,. If, when the Noble Earl had pledged
himself to their Lordships, the witnesses should
be detained in this country, • to answer any
charges which might be,,hrought against them as
arising from these proceedings, if he had then
stated that the management of those witnesses
would be entrusted to, subordinate agents, over
whom he had no contrOul, their Lordships would,
he was sure, have come to a very different deci-
sion than the one to which they did come. The
House understood what the Noble Earl said to
be a pledge that they should be detained. He
had no doubt of the Noble Earl's having done
all ‘hat it was possible he could have done ; but
he had not done what the House expected. His
Noble. Friend (Lord Carnarvon) had withdrawn
his motion, because it had been said that its
adopticn would .have - been an injustice to the
Queen. " For my part," said the Noble Lord,
" I am made of sterner stuff; and I should have
,been ready now, as 1 have been at all times, to
put an end to these odious proceedings. There-
fore I should certainly have voted for the mo-
tion." . •

Earl GREY . then moved that Mr. Powell be
called to the bar and examined.

GEORGE ALLAN POWELL was "accordingly called
and swoi:n.—Examined by Earl GREY.
Q. .1 wish to ask Mr. Powell, whether he was
employed by the Committee at Milan ?7,--A. I
was.

Did you act as agent nn the part of that Committei?.—/ did.
Were you present at the examination of the witness Ras-
telli ?—I was.

Was it you who sent Rastelli out. of the country?—lt was I
wbo recommended !tastelli should be sent to Italy. '
Where did you give that recommendation?-1 recommended
it at the Foreign Office.
Did you get a passport for him did not.
_

. .
Can you state who did ?—I
On what grounds did you make this recommendation at
the Foreign Office ?—ltastelli was a courier, who bad -con-
ducted a great number of witnesses to Dover. These wit-,
nesses had been ill-tre.uted by the, people. I learned that
various reports were propagated in Italy on the dangers
which witnesses ran in coming to this country. 1 heard it
was reported in Italy that they had received great personal
injuries here," and the families of persons there were extreme-
ly anxiO
the
on the subject.. I understood Rastelli to be ac-
quainted with the neater past of the families of c. parties,
and I considered it would be an act of humanity to send some
person who had seen the witnerses in this country, and who
was, acquainted with their families, tu assure them of
_their
safely in this country.
Taliingt his to be your motive, did you not know, that
.by
sending_ Rastelli out of the country it world be impossible
fair him to gibe evidence ?—Rastelli was sent away on the Fri-
day after trre_adjournment, and I-conceited there would have
been ample time for his arrival before any examination. My
instruction to Rastelli was, that he was toretitru here on or
before the 3d of October. I had a conviction on my mind that
he would so return.. _ .

..'n;ho did you see at the Foreign Oflice?—Either Air. Plant
or Lord Clanailli gym, I am not sure which; I stilted that Has -
WE wa's to be sent as asconrier.

Did you state to, 'the person you saw at the Foreign Office,
that nastriti had beqn a witness ?—I do not recollect;
'Did you state what he was 1-1 believe it was known who
he was.
Race you reason to believe he will return sohn ?—I believehe will be here snots, because positive orders have been sent
to make bhn come here.
When iver4 the ordeiiisent ?—They have'been sent two or
three times. Orders were scut ma Saturday and Sundiiy.

Eris any answer been received ?—I hare heard Rastelli his
been several ucys culla I/ ell it, WS bed, having been bled fur a
violent fever.

Lord ALVANLEY.—Did you erev receive any instruction
from his Majesty's Government not to allow the witness to
depart I—l do remember no instruction.
Am I to understand no instruction .waigireit:l--My instruc-
tion was in the debate in this House, in which the Noble Earl
said he should take all the care he could of the witnesses.
A Pita.—Could the persons in Italy bare applied to Cot.
Blown, or any body else At Milan,_ to learn the situation of
their relations I—They- might have applied to Colonel Brown,
and they did apply to Colonel Brown, but they Were not satis-
fied with the answers he gave them. 1 have receired tile de-
positions of persons there, in which they depose to hare heard
of serious injuries received by their relations; and notwitb-
standing the, answers they received assuring theni of the cOn-
tiary, they were not satisfied,
Lord ALVANLEI—Have you any means to compel Rei!-
telli to appear in this country.--individually I can have nn,
means of comPelliog him to appear; .but .I.apprehend it is in
the power of the Government of the,country to compel him
to come here if he should refitse.

A-PEER.--,Have any of the other witnesses been sent out"of
the country ?—Not one.
The witness was ordered to withdraw. •
Lord ERSKINE then repeated his motion, 'namely, "that
Covisel be called to.the Bar, and the Counsel for her Majesty
be asiied whether it was material that the, witness Rastelli be
immediately called ors.''
The LORD CHANCF.I.I.OR expressed some doubt whether
the question ought to be put, and, proposed,- as it was after 4
o'clock, to take the opinion of the House upon it to-morrow.,
'Their Lordships then adjourned.