The Sun.
London, England, 1829-05-09 00:00:00

it ; and 1822 exceeded both 1523 and 1824, as is proved
by the returns laid on the table of the House, in the amount
of its exports. The exports of that year exceeded
whatever occurred before or since in the whole history of
I med. 'I he returns of experts fro n Ireland testified, ac-
mmormlieg to official language, the extreme prosperity of the
cimuntry at time very moment that its immhabitants were
perishing. It is evident from the state of things in this
country, that such is our present cond lion. We are making
large exports at the time that our people arc asking for the
necessaries of life. We are supplying other countries—our
merchants arc seeking a market all over the world, because
they are poor and distressed. A Government guided by cor-
rect principles, would inquire into the cause of such a state of
timings, existing in the nation over which it presides. But our
Government inquired not—it was involved in apathy, and
took no more account of our present circumstances than
it formerly sent vessels to Ireland, by not one of which
was that country visited, except to bear away its pro-
duce. The state of things in that country is most unna-
tural and extraordinary ; and it would become the Mem-
bers connected with Ireland to investigate into the cause,
and not to be content till they had found out the cause and
redressed the injustice. They would do more good by in-
vestigating the cause than had been conferred on the coun-
try by the measure of Catholic emancipation, which threa-
tened our tranquillity by alarming the fears of the inha-
bitants of this part of the Empire, while it had only con-
ferred a double boon on the Catholics. It is now disco-
vered that we have capital which cannot be profitably em-
ployed, though it is capital which sets labourers in motion
and gives a spur to industry ; and at the same time we
have a superabundance of population which that capital
cannot employ. This is an extraordinary state of things
which requires investigation, and this alone makes it suf-
ficient to cast a cloud over that prosperity which the
Chancellor of the Exchequer thinks is only temporary,
and which he has described on passing over as a subject to
be slightly alluded to, hut only to be looked at as a matter
of curiosity, and watched as it flies away. But when all
the elements of national prosperity are out of order—when
industry obtains no wages, and capital no profit, it is time
I think that the attention of the House should be directed
to the subject. That is the question which the House
ought to consider. It ought to institute an inquiry into
the state of the country, and to institute it with earnest
energy.—(Hear.)
Mr. HUSKISSON bad been unfortunately absent in
the early part of the debate, and did not intend to take
any part in it if he had not been alluded to by the Hon.
Member for Callington ; and he must express his surprise
that that Hon. Member, who had begun his speech by re-
ferring to the digression of the Worthy Alderman, had him-
'elf digressed from the subject before the Committee in
such a manner as hardly to have alluded to it. I appeal
to the Committee if almost every part of the Hon.
Member's speech might not hare been delivered on any
other occasion, and if a large portion of it might not have
been appropriately spoken in the debate last night on the
subject of Ireland. The lion. Member says, that in 1822
there was great distress in Ireland, and that during the
same year there was a great exportation of corn and cattle.
This was possibly the case; and what was the cause?
Why in Ireland in that year the food, the potatoe crop—
on which the great bulk of the peasantry subsist—totally
failed, and they did then as they must do under similar
circumstances, sold whatever else they bad to pay the dues
of the landlord—sold that other produce which in ge •
neral they are not in the habit of consuming. The
Honourable Member could surely drew in this nothing
extraordinary; it was one of the unfortunate results
of that state of society which will occasionally arise
when there is a redundant population, and little or
no capital to set them to work, and particularly when
that population are already reduced to subisst on the
cheapest and lowest priced of all species of food. The
distress was caused by the failure of the potatoe crop.
This ought to make the House take into its consideration
the state of pauperism in Ireland, for if something were
not done, England would speedily he reduced to the same
state ; and when it was so reduced, property would be ex-
posed here to time same danger, and time public tranquillity
to the same uncertainty as in Ireland. The :Hon. Mem-
ber had also referred to what I stated on a former evening
from the exports, and in repeating that statement he
would challenge the Hon. Member to tell him what other
documents he could refer to, to ascertain the cendition of
the country, but those which were published by the au-
thority of Parliament to show the state of the commerce
of the country. In the finance returns, the account of
the exports for the year 1827 was stated :at forty millions,
and the last year at fiftyetwo millions ; and he had stated
the last as a proof that the foreign demand had not de-
creased, and that that could not be the reason for the want
of employment for capital and labour. Ile had taken the
official value, because that was estimated by rates settled,
not, as the Worthy Alderman seemed to suppose, in 1814,
but during time reign of King William ; and because, there-
fore, it signified quantities, not value, and showed that the
quantities exported in 1828 were greater, by the
proportion of 32 to 40, than in 1827. He had argued from
that fact, and that argument had not been met, that the
want of employment did not arise from auy decrease in
our foreign demand. He had also stated what he trusted
could not be denied, and he had proved the fact by the
Excise returns, that a greater demand and consumption
of various articles existed in 1828 than in 1827. He had
also inferred from this, that it could not be want of employ-
ment which had occasioned that pressure which was
generally felt. There was no better criterion of the im-
proved condition and comfort of a people, than that the
community increased its consumption of the necessaries,
the enjoyments, .and the luxuries of life ; and if he found
the quantity consumed of beer, cloth, spirits, malt, and
silk gradually increased, he was entitled to infer that the
community was thriving, and he had referred to these
documents to justify the policy adopted by the Govern-
ment of this country with regard to its commerce and
industry. The Hon. Gentleman speaks of the decay of
the silk trade ; but there are contingencies which will
come, and cannot be avoided in any manufactures which
are sulmjeat to the influence and fluctuations of fashion.
If Members referred to The Annual Register, they
would find that distress was not unusual in Spitalfields,
and that more riots bad been known there than in any
other part of the metropolis. The Hon. Member and
others compared the present state of trade with the
exorbitant profits obtained during the war, and
by that comparison with the depression which now
exists, he drew his conclusions that trade was
ruinel It has always been found that there were periods
when production surpassed consumption, and which were
followed by periods of stagnation. As long as prices were
falling, persons looked for a still further fall ; and they
would undertake nothing which they could avoid, and
would buy as little as possible ; but directly prices began
to rise, then all the speculators rushed into the market.
He would not say that we were yet at an end of the first
period ; bet whenever prices began to rise, trade would
recover. He could not indulge in those gloomy anticipa-
tions, founded on false assumptions, in which the Hon.
Member for Callington indulged, and which did not ap-
pear to have been very well calculated to alleviate the
pressure on the labour and industry of the country.--
(Ilear, hear. )—Having done with this digression, he would
While he was on his legs, refer to what had fallen from the
lion. Member for Callington. He agreed entirely with time
latter obs,,wvation of the Honourable and Learned Member
t-or 'Weymouth on this subject. If there were in the
Court of Chancery any fund similar to the unclaimed di-
vidends, not likely to be called for, or called for at a spe-
cific time, Parliament might deal with that fund, giving
a guarantee to the Court, as it gave to the Bank, to pay
it when called on. Parliament could not recognise
a higher protecting authority than that it owed to its
own creditors. In fact no higher protection for any
property could be given. It did not appear to him
that the Honourable Member for Callington meant or in-
tended by his proposal any sacrifice of property. Nothing
was further, he was sure, from the thoughts of that Hon.
Member, who only banked at it as every man of common
sense would look at it. If Parliament dealt with that pro-
perty, it ought to deal with it on the principle of a guar-
dian, who makes time most he can, preserving it from den-
ger, as the property of his ward. In many cases it must
be improper to vest much of the money in the hands of
the Court of Chancery in such a fluctuating Stock as the
Three per Cents. ; and it would be better to vest it in that
more steady account of Exchequer Bills. The Hon. Mem-
ber asked could the House convert all the property vested
in the hands of the Accountant-General into a book debt?
Why the whole national debt was nothing but a book
debt, and it was as sacred as any debt in the kingdom.
There was no authority for it, but that it was inscribed in
the books of time Bank of England. Exchequer Bills had,
at least, a tangible existence; and hearing a reoeipt from
time Exchequer had at least as valued an existence as the
debt inscribed in time books of the Bank. The Hon. and
Learned Member said Exchequer Bills might be stolen ;
but the Bank of England will at any time take charge of
the Exchequer Bills of individuals, and of course they will
he more reedy to do this for a public company. The
Bank of England would take charge of Exchequer Bills for
any 'Oman. From the nature of the case, upon due considera-
tion, any man acting as a guardian would vest his money in
Exchequer Bills, in preference to vesting it in the Three per
Cents. Let pulmlic trustees not be placed under the necessity of
vesting their money in the Three per Cents., or in Ex-
chequer Bills ; but let there be some officer, who in each

Chancery, intentionolll inoloßof
tiinwteuranftusnadreed tdoebne, gbuuatrdthed;,;
considerablell ie rest
the %pro°
portion
nbeo,f nutta
that
debthe sacrifice
lowf
(t.hhoesen partiesfo
in-
vestmentsa
in preference co the Three per Cents. Being so
vested, it would not expose the State to those hazards and
difficulties and fluctuations to which a country is expos d
that has a public debt. He had heard with great satis-
fictien the statement of the Right Hon. Gent., that,
amidst all the pressure upon the country, and making
every allowance for that pressure, as affecting the public
income and diminishing the resources of the country, he
was offering to the Hoes, the satisfactory statement that
there was a surplus of revenue equal to what the Com-
mittee of last year had declared ought to be the minimum
of balance of receipt over expenditure. His Bight Hon.
Friend had shown that that surplus would be realised in
the present year. He (Mr. H.) would not enter into
any discussion of the terms of the three millions, but
he was rather inclined to agree with the Honourable Mem-
ber for Abingdon that the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer ought not to have mentioned the terms ; and if, as
he says, offers had been made to the extent of eighteen
millions, it certainly afforded a presumption that better
terms might have been obtained.—(Hear, bear.)—But
there was a reduction of the amount of the Unfunded Debt
to the extent of three millions ; and he was rejoiced that
the speech of his Right Hon. Friend warranted a belief
that, at a future period, be meant to extend the reduction
of the Unfunded Debt still further. The Unfunded Debt
was one of the dangers of the country,—it was a source of
weakness, danger, and embarrassment. He could wish
that, as his Right Hon. Friend had ascertained that there
were three millions of surplus, he had withdrawn from the
market a greater amount of Unfunded Debt; and he
would once more repeat, that he looked at the state of the
Unfunded Debt, which was held by the Bank of England,
with concern. He most seriously wished that that por-
tion of the Unfunded Debt should undergo a diminution.
It was that portion of the Unfunded Debt that had
been the fruitful source of such difficulties and sufferings
to the country, of which it was now bearing the la-
mentable consequences. In 1797 objections were made
to the nmount of the engagement which the Bank wtsa
under to the Government, under the shape of advances OD
the unfunded debt. He could not forget that in 1819 the
Bank of England toll the Government that they required
a repayment of ten millions. After receiving this, they
advanced to Government thirteen millions upon securities
much less available than Exchequer Bills, besides two mil-
lions upon mortgage. He had not lost sight of the panic
of 1825, and he did implore the Right Hon. Gentleman
not to leave the amount of the unfunded debt as it was, it 5
the hands of the Bank. He should consider well how
small a portion of the funds of that company was available
in time of distress. With the exception of their treasury
and deposits, scarcely any securities they held, in the event
of panic, or of a great change in the affairs of the world,
could be made available. Of all the clangers and evils that
could affect this country, the greatest would be that of the
Bank of England coming to Parliament and saying, give
us a restriction for the public interests and for public pur-
poses. He hoped never to see such an exigency: and if
he did, were he to live to a much greater extent than the
ordinary duration of life, of this be was convinced that he
should not live to see that exigency removed.
Mr. ATTWOOD explained, complaining that the Right
Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down had misrepre-
sented some of his statements.

Mr. D. W. HARVEY rose amidst sonic impatience..
The country had been led to expect that it was the serious
intention of Government to investigate the financial ren-
dition of the country, with a view to a substantial redoc-
tion of expenditure. The public feeling had been com-
posed under the expectation that a Finance Committee,
consisting of all parties, should be established for the pur-
pose of probing into the expences of the country. Such a
Committee was established ; but just as they had entered
upon the threshold of their practical utility, the country
received from Government a notice of its dissolution. Anil
now the Chancellor of the Exchequer came down to the
House, proposing to do something in connexion witir the
Court of Chancery. As to any reduction of taxation, or
a mutation of its character, not one word was uttered.—
(Hear.)—The House had been led to expect, by the advn-
eates of Catholic Emancipation, that no sooner should that
great measure be carried, than the military in Ireland
should be reduced, and millions saved. As far as he could
learn as yet, they not disbanded even a Corporal's Guard.
Easy as it was to reduce the expenditure from three to
five millions, still greater relief might arise frcni an altera-
tion of the taxes. It was to a reduction and alteration
of taxes that the attention of the country was directed,
and he did not believe that there were 650 persons in all
England that did not believe that the only way of reliev-
ing the country was to take from the shoulders of the
poor the chief part of their burthens, and to alter the na-
ture of what was left them to bear. He would repeat, that
about ten millions of taxes which oppressed the labouring
classes might be removed, and others substituted. He
would recommend the substitution of a well-regulated and
equitable graduated Property Tax, commencing at one,
and rising to forty per cent.—(Laughter.)—People did
expect that the state of the country would receive a deep
investigation. Nothing was so barbarously unjust as to
institute free trade on one side, and the Corn taws on the
other. He had thrown out something difficult of diges-
tion ; but a few sound, strong, and sober remarks might
be made in a few minutes, when those who wished to
cloud the public eye entered into two or three hours' ora-
tion, till they perplexed, all who beard them.
Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN explained.
The question was then put and carried, that the sum of
506,212/. 2s. Bd., the surplus of the Ways and Means of
the years 1823, 1824, 1825, 1826, 1827, and 1828, be
granted for the service of the present year—that towards.
making good the supply of the present year, the sum of
14,700,0001. be granted out of the Consolidated Fund.—
Put and carried.

Upon putting the question, that towards raising the
Supply, 13,438,802/. be raised for the service of the pre-
sent year,
Mr. HUME wished to know whether these Bills we!e
meant solely to replace those now in circulation.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
they were intended solely to replace Bills at present out.—
Government had no power to issue new Bills. The mo-
tion was then carried.

Upon the question that the several persons who had en-
gaged to subscribe towards funding two millions of Exche-
quer Bills, and have made deposits at the Bark of Eng-
land, should be entitled, at the completion of the sub-
scription of each 100/. to 101/. 10s., in capital stock of
4 per cent.,
Mr. HUME moved to report progress, and ask leave to
sit again till the Chancellor of the Exchequer should show
that he could not withdraw the Bills from market on bet-
ter terms ttian he had done. _ _

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that
if the Howie was not to proceed till he had satisfied the
Hon. Member for Aberdeen, there would be an intermin-
able postponement of the question.—(Laughter.)—The
Committee could only judge of the present terms by what
had been done under similar circumstances.—(Cries of
" No, no, no.")—lt would not be difficult to satisfy the
House that the mode of reducing Exchequer Bills, by a
gradual application of the Sinking Fund to daily purchases
in the market, would not he economical to Government.
It would raise the premium till the Government would
find a greater loss than by the present measure. BY the
present transaction the difference of interest was one and a
fraction per cent., and the 96,0001. received for the sale
of these Biils would go in part reduction.
Mr. MABERLY was no advocate for withdrawing Ex-
c!,equer Bills, except as they could be paid off at par.
Mr. HERIIIES felt convinced that, under all the cir-
cumstaneee, his Right lion. Friend was pursuing the
most proper course.—(Cries of " Question, question !")
Mr. MABERLY rose amidst repeated cries of
" Question !" The Hon. Member observed, that the ar-
guments of the Right lion. the Master of the Mint would
be perfectly good, if they referred only to the three mil-
lions ; but it so happened that he referred to the whole
amount of Exchequer Bills afloat in the market. Ile
thought all the Chancellor of the Exchequer had a right
to do was to give the usual notice that he meant to pay off
3,000.000/. of Exchequer Bills at par.—(" Question !
Question !")
Sir JOHN WROTTESLEY asked a question, which
the noise below the Bar rendered inaudible in the
gallery.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER rose for
the purpose of answering the Hon. Baronet.—(Question,
question !)--He agreed with the Hon. Baronet in think-
ing that so far as regarded the Bills which the Bank re-
ceived from Government, they had a right to take them
back on the stipulated terms, but it wrs different with re-
spect to the Exchequer Bills, which had got into their
possession by other means.
Mr. HUME rose amidst loud cries of " Question !"
He was willing to wait with patience, as it was as yet
early (it was one o'clock) ; but be was determined to he
hear.i. lie had year after year en leavoured to impress
upon Ministers the propriety of altering the course which
they were now pursuing.—(Question, question.)—lf this
interruption is continued, I shall certainly persevere in my
motion for an adjournment of the debate. If there be
Hon. Members below the Bar (as I see there are) who bit
there without a wish to take a part in the business before