The Sun.
London, England, 1829-04-04 00:00:00

*Gold With him defend- every attack on the chUreh.—
The Noble and Learned Lord had strived hard historically
to explain the duties of allegiance and supremacy, and to
zna...11.e as acquainted that they were passed in the time of
•Jilabeth, for the purpose of guarding against the danger
Popery. No doubt, my Lords, the events of those times
fallYjustified the passing of those Acts. It was not wondetful
tliftt-they should wish to have some test and security for
The Protestant Religion. But, my Lords, it sheuld be recol-
lected that the oath of supremacy was not levelled at the
PaPists. It would, be a reflection on Noble Lords to
remind them that this Act was not intended exclusively
le censure those professing the Roman Catholic religion ;
that could not be the case, for in tho,e times it was ge-
nerally supposed that the Roman Catholics had liberty:from
The Pope to upset any oath imposed upon them by persons
differieg from them in religion. The Noble and Learned
Lord had talked much of the danger of Roman Catholics
being admitted into offices of the state. I thought
these antiquated notiens had long ago been excluded.—
(Flear, hear, hear.)—The late Lord Liverpool himself,
in all his opposition to the Roman Catholic claims, never
itnauted to them disloyalty. Now, my Lords, can there
be any better security than-the security of the oath pro-
Posed for the Roman Catholics to take—that oath
was a sufficient safeguard to the Protestant religion ;
and, my Lords, we all know the regard the Catholics
entertain for the obligation of an oath ; it was because
they would not take the testing bath that excluded
them from offices of this nature ; that 'oath imposed sa-
crificee which they never would submit to. Could
it then be said that they ought not to be trusted'
In the time of Queen Elizabeth, to which allusion had so
often been made in the course of the debate, it should be
recollected that the Catholics were trusted and appointed
to high offices, and;thatiMonarch possessed their confidence.
Who was it that destroyed the Spanish Armada ? Who
was the Admiral who commanded the fleets of England
against that powerful force which was directed against
ottr country, and if success failed, would have destroyed
our liberty. It was a Roman Catholic, Lord Howard of
Peffingham,whoee statue now adorned a neighbouring edifice.
Perhape he might have obtained a license from the Pope
--(great laughter) to fight the battles of a sovereign who
had been excommunisated by the See of Rome, and which
Power had absolved his subjects from their allegiance.
Yee, my Lords, under these circumstances, was a Roman
Catholic appointed by a Protestant Queen, to oppose the
roost powerful foree ever directed against this country—
and that too acting under the banners of Popery.—( Hear,
hear.)—Why, ray Lords, what more is necessary to show
the confidence that can be reposed in Roman Catho•
hes. Perhaps, my Lords, it is unnecessary for me
to go into the legal arguments of the Learned Lord who
has just sat down. It was acknowledged that this was a
question of political expediency, and whether granting the
Roman Catholics their civil rights would or would
not endanger the safety of the Established Church.—
(Hear, hear.)—My Lords, the Acts imposing these
disabilities, were passed under a strong sense of necessity,
and I am therefore free to admit that they are entitled to
the greatest regard and attention, but I; never can
agree with those Noble Lords who wish to make an
ilnpreesion that these laws were intended to be per-
manent, and that it was not in our power to
alter them. This fallacy has been again and again ex-
Paled, and never more satisfactorily than by the Noble
Lord who spoke from the Woolsack last evening. That
noble Lord clearly proved that it was competent for Par-
liament to enquire into the nature of those restrictions.
Iha`re advocated the suns cause—l have before combatted
tat subject with the Noble and Learned Lord sitting at
the table before me, and who, I perceive, is very busy
taking notes.—(Great laughter.)—l may have been
Wrong in the views I have taken; of the subject; but if
Wrong, I have no doubt we shall soon hear it from the
noble and Learned Lord, to whom I shall listen with
that attention and respect to which his great talents en-
title him. I say, my Lords, we are called upon to make
an alteration—it never was intended when those laws
Were passed but that when circumstances changed
they should be repealed, and in doing this we are
doing no more than what it is our duty to do, and I may
add, as a matter of reproach, that it was not done earlier.
These law, were passed at the time of the Revolution,
attd I fearlessly 'say, that it was the intention of the
Legislature,..they left it to their successors to make those
changes which circumstances might in after ages require,
ma if they could new legislate no doubt they would bring
termini the same measure as we are now doing. There
/* nothing that can be construed into permanent exclusion.
The Catholics had asserted their rights, and it was time
They had them granted. Noble Lords had heard that the
But of Rights made it illegal to collect rent in the shape of a
tax without the authority of Parliament. That it was
also illegal for them to carry arms. But would they for a
moment contend that Parliament had not the power to
llter think enactments? In the Act of Settlement, it was
directed that all Privy Counsellors, on entering office,
%Quid sign, . and subscribe to, certain declarations,
'ad that no subordidate officer of the Crown should have
seat in the House of Commons. But those parts were
t'lleoled. If it was sound policy to make that change, I
*lillltay, that it would be equally so to make a further
t:aage• My Lords, you will also recollect that there
4 an Act passed, making it imperative on all per-
4°at previous to entering the army or navy to take the
that
if supremacy. This Act had also been repealed, and
(tlet during the administration of the Noble and Learned
Card near me. (ldon) almost without opposition. My
`l:rcilr, it will be recollected in 1807 I held the office of one
1/' hielstajesty's Secretaries of State. At that period a Bill
WO brought in to give a partial relief to his Majesty's
Iteinaa Catholic subjects. It gave them the right to hold
tonsmissisress in the army and navy, and I stn sure many
noble Lords who now hear me will remember the agitation
at causoi, Mad thaimeans that were made use of, (something
'inailar to what -they had been on the present occa-
°ion) an endeavour to impress upon the public
that if that Bill passed into a law, all the liberty of the
Nect was gone, and the safety of the Crown itself in
danger. It was said, what, will you put the sword into
the hands of the Catholics? If yon- do, revolution must
tow. It was argued that his Majesty could not consistently
With hi 4 Nronation oath, give his assent to such a measure.
If I.- • e
aesereedly destruction to liberty and religion must
ltwotediately such was the agitation that this mea-
24.Produeed from one end of the country to the other, and
"eh the circumstances of the times, before it could be passed,
4a Ministry of which he formed a part were out of office,
14d another administration was formed determined to op-
-114%e such a measure, and it was said the country might
f.:11 remain safe as the Popish Administration was dis-
-ared,—(Hear.)-13ut my Lords, what did this new ad-
"iltistration of which the Noble and Learned Lord formed
okt ‘•3'd almost immediately after getting into office?
19aa •
wear came aesva to Parliament with exactly such ano-
lher Alit • ; •4,
epernng ceg Army and Navy to the
koala a ogAlwiici,,(Hear, hear,- t,ear,)--and this, TPT
rd
(;t1 ill r iteet was proposed by the very Minis-
alarm of danger.
Whyo shortlyw e:e°2:o.tth
rehad 50M74e(1 the.
,4 Bin was then carried almost without ea dissenting
t()14, and my Lords, it is not Pale curious to witness the
,
'Nit • -nd none --no danger ensued, . that
Tit° to much dreaded were realised.—(Hear, hear)-
atsaat-
1:4 'gain, my Lords, ire eeference to the Act of Union,
which your Lordships have heard sip nlUch, I state
ZtinetlY that I do not think that that Act i 3 eng w, hick
Ilade'n(4 be changed.—(Hear, hear.)—This doctrine was
rjawn in so clear a manner by the Noble and Learned
tecsa' tne Woolsack last night, who, not satisfied
his own knowledge, h,es quoted my Lord Hard-
bte sentiments on that 40; both pf 441:/ hays
NI" corroborative of my Ora, that I am really
4 to say oue word more on the subject ; thus much,
if
ft ;"er, I must say, upon what subject can we legislate
Cih.s lils°U the Act of Union ? We could not havg taken
oaa'•-‘4 step in the Corn Laws without infringing upon
io• wf the_ articles of that act ; a prohibitory law was en-
142"ttt reference to the importation of corn, and yet your

Lordships legiKlated • on that question ; there Were
other points also in d,dell changes had taken place; the
strongest article of all in the A t of Union is that which
refers to the limitation of the land-tax in Scotlan.l. Now
what has happened in relation to this? A new law was
enacted, changing the old tax into property-tax, in which
no doubt in some degree a land -tax %las conceined, but in
spirit there was an alteration; a power is also undoubtedly
given to Parliament in the 18th Article, to make what-
eTer alterations it might think proper. Then, my Lords,
again as regards the Coronation Oath, it can be shewn
from the most incontrovertable evidence, that no infringe-

ment can possibly be made upon it by tbs adoption
of conciliatory measures ; it would indeed be strange and
unaccountable if the framers of that oath trusted to the

Sovereign's power alone. It cannot be believed, my
Lords, that they by that oath intended to trust for
safety to the Crown alone ; a proviso is introduced
in that article, the spirit of which is universally
admitted ; that proviso was withdrawn, showing clearly
that it was not the intention of the Legislature to place
exclusive reliance on the Crown. I cannot suffi-
ciently deprecate a practice that has been adopted and
from which the greatest possible evil is:to be apprehended ;
I mean of giving circulation in the country to the idea
that by the introduction of these measures the Coronation
Oath will be infringed upon most wickedly ; in some cases
has this opinion been circulated. Now, my Lords, I
would allude to the position of the Roman Catholics
by the Treaty of Limerick. That Treaty was made with
respect to Ireland, and it expressly provided that Roman
Catholic subjects should enjoy all the privileges. This
was in the time of Charles the Second ; and it was stipu-
lated that they were Cu enjoy these privileges merely if they
took the oath of allegiance.—(Cries of " Hear.").—That
treaty, my Lords was subsequently ratified by King
William, under the great seal of the Kingdom. I will
read to your Lordship an extract of a letter from
Sir John Tweedale, in which he declares that the
laws affecting the Raman-. Catholics were not intended
to be permanent, but suited to the exigency of the times ;
and subject always to what might be found necessary here-
after. My Lords, I should like to say one word regarding
the political power alleged to be the aim of the Roman Ca-
tholics in this measure. We have been told in phrases about
which there can be but little or no mistake that the Ca-
tholics wished to establish political power at the expence of
another. I do not, my Lords, deny that the Catholics
wish to obtain political power, but it is a legitimate power
which the subjects of every free nation ought to desire
and possess ; that political power is the natural
offspring of every free Government.—(Great cheers.)--
It has been objected by the opponents of this measure that
concessions would be dangerous, in consequence of the
physical power of the Roman Catholics. That, in my
apprehension, is one argument why those concessions
should be made. The very ardour they display is sufficient
reason for not refusing their claims. Let us look, my
Lords, to the power which they at present possess, and
let us then see how that power has been employed.—
Eligibility to office, and to seats in Parliament, is, I
admit, political power, but I admit that they are also civil
rights, and the Roman Catholics aim at nothing more.—
I trust my Lords that I have vindicated the Roman
Catholics from the imputation emit on them by Noble
Lords, that they were undeserving of confidence. I
have said, let us look at the way in which they
employ their present power. They possess the
eligibility to certain offices—the Army and the Navy
are open to them. They enjoy the elective franchise,
and since the abrogation of the penal laws they have the
power to purchase and acquire property, and are conse-
quently in the possession of that power which is derivable
from wealth.—( Hear, hear.)—But there is no proof
that they have abused that power, unless it be contended
that the assertion of what they conceive to be right can be
construed into such abuse. Possessing all those privileges
they still consider themselves unjustly treated, and still
labouring under a grievance which they feel ought not to be
imposed upon them, they naturally exert the power that
they possess in the assertion of rights too long withheld,
and this is the only way in which it can be said that the Ca-
tholics exert the power they posseis against the Government.
I do not mean to say that that power is not great, that
the priesthood have an extraordinary influence over the
minds of the people, end, if mis-directed, that influence would
be dangerous. But by this measure you will unite all parties
in a powerful union for the maintenance of social inte-
rests, and the security of the State. What, I ask, are
the evils we anticipate from this men sure. It would have
the effect of introducing five or six Peers into this House,
and a large number of Members would be returned to the
other House. Catholics would also become eligille to civil
offices, with few exceptions, and under this law the fewer
the better. What then is to be the consequence ? It
is then argued that all at once the King is to be
influenced by some Catholic charm—some Ilohenlohe
spell, which would work on his mind a miracle of con-
version, and that he was to abandon the prin-
ciples of the House of Brunswick. It was also
argued that the people who had been so alarmed
at the very prospect of this law would become so ena-
moured of the Catholic faith, that their opposition to
it would cease. To believe this would be something
equal to a belief even of hansubstantion
What, any Lords, are the arguments on the other side?
We find the Catholic population united by a sense of com-
mon injury for advancement of a common interest. You
have heard the Noble Duke give a clear illustration
of the state of .Ireland.--(Hear, bear.)—He told
you that the present system contronled the magistracy
in their duty, that it affected materially the administration
of justice, that it deteriorated the value of property, and
threatened the credit of the country. These are evils,
my Lords, the correction of which devolves upon
you this night.—(lleer, hear.)—They are evils from
the contemplation of which you will not shrink in the
performance of your duty. We have had a long detail
from the Noble Viscount opposite of the measures he had
in contemplation to improve Irelani. But I would ask how
this law could impede the progress of those measures ?
Nay, more, I will ask your Lordships, can you attempt
these measures unless thisjaw be passed. Until you depart
from the system you have so long pursued, and with such
unhappy consequences, until you tranquillize Ireland, until
that great and paramount difficulty be removed, all your at-
tempts at improvement will be vain. If I were asked would
this measure tranquillize Ireland, I certainly could net
look into the womb of time, and:state what its effects
would be, but I should say that it is our duty to provide
such means as the urgent necessity of the times dictates.
I do not mean to say that it will have an immediate effect,
but I think it more likely than any other mode that can be
adopted; tol effect that change in the condition of Ireland,
which I am sensible your Lordships are anxious to achieve.
It was stated last night, by the Noble and Learned Lord on
the woolsack, that the condition of Ireland was every year
growing worse and worse, and that assertion has been fully
demonstrated by circumstances which have recently conic
under your Lordship's cognizance. That alone is in my mind
a sufficient reason for the adoption of a different system.
The Noble Marquis who has recently had such abundant
CPpOrtunity of forming a correct opinion on the state of
that country, has truly told you, that although the present
sirs em ..-Te;it be endured in peace, it could not in time of war.
Let us La at the situation c.f iuland exposed as she is to
the ieeis o America Upon die one li‘tind, and to Cie beets
of Prance upon the et rev. Such a situation was full of
fierikei end more particularly so since a mistaken policy
had allowed Span+ to he sacrificed to France.—(Hear. )
Another opportunity might not occur when these
dangers could be obviated with le7s difficulty. Looking
at the question fairly, their Lordships should consider that
it youl4 lte !better cc 8o to Ortiiu losses in time of peace,
than hazard the conscquencee of leayiog frelapd 41 4 etate
of dissatisfaction and disaffection in the event of a war.
What reprobation would not a Statesman deserve if he did
nor e4empt in a time of tranquillity like the present to I
bring forward gene teeesere like the present for the pur-
pose of conciliating the Finale of Ireland, and avoidinii

that danger which they had for vso long a 'tline failed in
averting by means of force.--(Che,:•rs.)—My Lords, the
Noble Lord says, " why not enforce the laws which are at
present in existence." My Lords, it is very easy to say this,
but though the Catholic Association was in existence for
such a length of time, and with the danger hourly encreas-
ing upon them, still it:was found impossible to relieve Ire-
land from the danger which attended it.—(Hear.)--But
I say, my Lord•, if this be charged against the Government,
those who are disposed to bring forward such a charge
should take especial care :that the arguments they use will
not apply with double force against the Noble and Learned
Leader.
Lord ELDON made an observation in an under tone to
the Noble Earl which was inaudible.

Lord GREY, in continuation—Well, my Lords, they shall
take care that their arguments will not fall upon the bead
of the Noble and Learned and highly gifted Lord, to whose
efforts and assistance they look for ward with such sac-
guine expectations. The Noble Earl, who spoke early
in the debate, said that the Government of Ireland was
disposed to exert the whole of the force it possessed
to avert the danger, but that the Government at home, and
particularly the lawyers connected with that Government,
were opposed to it. The Noble Lord, had opened a pretty
large indictment, and he began with the Noble Lords on
this side the House, charging them with being the exciters
of this charge by continually urging this measure. My
Lords, I, for one, plead guilty to this charge.—(Cheers.)
I always urged this measure to the utmost of my ability.
But he brings the charge that we have advocated this topic
for party purposes. Now, my Lords, considering that a
great portion of his Majesty'a Government, and those nut
the least distinguished by their transcendent talent, and
their influence in the country, have always advocated this
measure, it is too much to charge us that we have urged
it merely for party purposes.---(Hear, hear.)—My Lords,
on this occasion I will support this Bill, for I will sever
shrink from the performance of my duty, because it may
be charged against methat I urn actuated by factious mo-
tives. My Lords, if I were disposed to retort upon those
who have charged us with having used public laws as
instruments of private ambition, I might find ample
matter to enable me to do so. The Noble Earl himself
was one of those who in 1807 raised an outcry against the
very measure which they themselves carried through
Parliament. The next persons in the indiettnent
were his Majesty's Ministers, and even the highest
authority, his Majesty himself, has not escaped the general
censure,—as if it were not sufficient that the Ministry
were not responsible for his acts. But I contend, my
Lords, that giving political power to the Catholics ought
not to be viewed as dangerous to the Established Church,
and I am sure the possession of such power as this Bill will
give them would be infinitely less dangerous than the phy-
sical power which they now posaess.—(Hear, hear. )—As
to the effects of this measure, I confess that I am sanguine
that it will produce all the beneficial consequences predicted
of it. It has been said that it will have the effect of de-
stroying the Established Church, but in reply to that I
will refer your Lordships to the speech of a Right Rev.
Prelate, who spoke last night upon this subject. My
Lords, I felt highly gratified with his declaration, that
even after the passing of this measure the Church of
of England had nothing to spare. I agree with him, my
Lords, that the church of England has nothing to fear ex-
cept indeed from those impolitic laws which this mea-
sure is intended to repeal. I say, my Lords, the
Established Church has nothing to fear unless
it abandons that ground on which it is unas-
sailable to avail itself of forbidden arms.—(Cheers.)—
In the Church of Ireland what fears can be entertained.
It is already in such a situation that do what you will you
cannot exempt it from its present difficulty. It was the
Church of a small minority, a minority small to a degree
that could only be the result of those very laws which this
Bill would repeal. My Lords, I say it would take away
those laws. That church would increase in magnitude
and prosperity. Ido not mean, my Lords, by means of
conversion, fur I think any injudicious attempts at con-
version would only create injury ; but I mean by means
of it, .uperior truth and reason, it will prevail to a greater
extent as soon as you have relieved it from the invidious
situation in which it now stands, by avoiding all means
of provocation—( Hear, hear, hear, hear) —as soon
as you have taken away those pretended supports,
which however only encumber its efforts.—(Cheers.)
But this prospect also may fail, and Catholic Association
may again be established, but I believe if any thing could
prevent such a recurrence, it is the measure which is
now before your Lordships. That is the only chance.—
(Hear, hear.)—l will suppose that this might happen
and even then I contend that Ireland might remain united
to this country. 1 say, my Lords, that such might be the
case, the experience of all Europe proves. I say that such
an occurrence might take place without destruction to the
Established Church. This might be illustrated by referring
to all the different Governments of Europe. I will sup-
pose, my Lords, for a moment, that you were to go as
heretofore, embodying the discontents of the people, and
continuing the pressure of all the old evils which distracted
Ireland.--(Hear, hear, hear, hear.)—l will suppose
that you were to do this, and then that you were
to be found embarked in another war. In the course of
this debate, my Lords, allusion has been made to Mr. Tone,
I would strongly recommend to your Lordships to read his
memoirs. I would refer your Lordships to the ex-
pected invasion of Ireland by General Hoche, which
had it taken place, notwithstanding the superiority
of the British navy must have caused a separation between
the two countries. Such would have been the result had
he effected a landing,—and that this country escaped on
that occasion was almost miraculous. It was, indeed,
like a merciful interposition of Providence; and surely,
my Lords, common sense would dictate that we should do
our utmost to avert the recurrence of such consequences.
My Lords, I will put to you the case of Ireland invaded by
a foreign force—of her people joining with a foreign enemy
—I will suppose the Irish people united with the intru-
ders, and departed from our Government, what then will
be the'extent of their wishes? will it be merely the eman-
cipation from their civil disabilities, no, assuredly not, but
that of having their own church established as the church
of the State ? The difficulty then is, not whether yon
will have the probable danger of a Catholic church and
Catholic ascendancy—which you may avert while it is in
your power, but whether you will have those with a foreign
power, and subject to foreign dominions—united with, and
in close alliance with it. I would ask you, what security
there was for the Church of England and Ireland? For,
my Lords, if the establishment of the Roman Catholic
Church, and of Roman Catholic ascendancy in Ireland,
under the same sovereign with ourselves, be an evil, how
much greater will it be, when achieved by a people
separated from us, and under the influence of another and
a strange Government. And, my Lords, what consola-
tion would yon have in saying to yourselves—" Oh, we
have been at least conmistent—we have done our utmost tq
maintain the fOth and 30th of Charles have
clung by those statutes which prescribe the oaths of supre-
macy and proscribe the doctrine of transubstantiation, and
the invocation of saints; we have laboured and succeeded
in excluding from seats in the Legislature, and from all
high and influential offices, the Catholics of Ireland, and
in so doing, have lost the most precious jewel of the Croura,
and lopped off the right a-, in the country. We have at least
sqmsoldtion, tnat ice have persevered, against all the
warnings which have been given by the most sensible men,
against all time voices of the greatest men who have adorned
e
most,t,..theens ewn
ha toe,baagya?,i n,sdtotrh;ecdon;
ti noa uoofutshees
of Parliament, and
against the advice of the greatest generals thol,lave.tidorned
sill arms; we have done all this, and we can at least con-.
sole ourselves that we have done tanc dally
- fiat jotitiik, moat caelara;
This have we done, and we therefore set down,
sedate, and satisfied with having dOti6 our duty, though in
the discharge of it we have hazarded our country, and
abridged its honour. (Cheers.
a(C4.l;aee4yrs.ii),(llll:l;ettz4o7o4.4 i.sual)l,oen
non
nearly done

indulgence ; one topic more only, will I advert to.
Your Lordships have been told, that in the hands
of inefficient administrations, the powers of the law
were suffered to 4 slumber. (Hear, hear, hear.)—
The vigour of the common law had been paralyzed. They
ask, why was not the law (for Pufficient it was for the pur-
pose) put in force to suppress the spirit Of disaffection
which was said to reign in Ireland ? My Lords, my an-
swer to that is this. In the fir,t place I should say that it
is no easy matter to apply a coercive and highly penal law,
when the parties against whom it is directed do not furnish
any thing in their conduct tangible to its operation.—
(Hear.)—But somebody has suggested that there was a
possibility—a supposition, that a series of provocations
might be adopted in Ireland, which would have the effect
of throwing that irascible people off their guard, and of
outraging their powers of patience beyond further en-
durance.—( Hoar, hear.)—By this means it was hoped
that an opoottunity wou'd be afforded of applying some
in the quelling of the disturbances with effect and cer-
tainty. But further, my Lords, it is imputed to the Noble
Duke at the head of the Government, that he has been
guilty of neglect in not applying those measures of coercion
which were within his reach for the suppression of these dis-
turbances. My Lords, lam not disposed to quote here the
splendid passage in the speech of the:Noble Duke, which de-
scribed the horrors of civil war, and the sacrifices which he
would make to arrest•it ; I should only weaken by re-
peating it. He of all men could pronounce such a
determination with peculiar grace and effect.—But
of that speech, and the sentiments expressed in it,
I shall say, that that which is imputed to
the Noble Duke as a weakness, I consider as
the strongest proof of his magnanimity—the best proof of
that moderation and coolness upon which all real wisdom
is based. Instead of reproaching I would applaud that
Noble Duke for this conduct—l revere hint the more—
and when I see this great soldier who has shared in the
shock of a hundred battles, shrinking from the horrors of
exposing his country to a civil war—when I see him depre
eating domestic contests, and protesting against that blood
which had covered him with immortal glory, shed in internal
broils—l say, that he is an authority beyond which we
ought not to go, and that he has contributed one step more
in securing the honour, prosperity, and happiness of this
country.—(Cheers.)—But, suppose it should resolve on
civil war, and that a standard is wanted by which to judge
of the probable success of the experiment, where shall we
find so good a criterion as the year 1793 ? Did the
civil war of that period produce beneficial conse-
quences to Ireland—were the fires which were then
lighted, yet extinguished, or would their desolating
influence cease to be felt, till the whole frame of Irish
society shall have an amendment? My Lords, I admit
that you may by the sword suppress riots, extinguish
open resistance, anti restore apparent quiet ; but can
you get rid of secret discontent—of that spirit, which,
though it shews not itself, is working secretly and
dangerously under the surface?—(Hear, hear.)—Here
my Lords is the mode of accomplishing that most desirable
result, and of achieving that much to be wished-for con-
clusion. This Bill offers you thei surest means of restor-
ing tranquillity in Ireland, without: using means of
coercion. it is not allowed to us to look into the womb of
time, but judging of this evil by fair probabilities, I think I
may say, that from the passing of this Bill, you may date
not the re-establishment, but as had been more
happily expressed, the regeneration of Ireland.—(Cheers.)
—My Lords, I have now to apologize for having tres-
passed so long upon 'your time. It only remains for me
to express my hearty concurrence in the measures of his
Majesty's Ministers, and to say, that by this measure
alone they have deserved my confidence, and that I shall in
future give them my support, consistent with my duty in
udging of the effect of their measures._(Cheers.)—Tl...t

I have little reason to com plain of the course which the
cause has taken, and the delay which has been given to its
progress, perhaps some of your Lordships may feel. But,
my Lords, I am thankful that justice has been at length done
to tie principles which I have advocated, to the view which
I took of this question—views which I learned from Fox,
and which I utter ed by the side of Lord Grenvile._
Their views
.were single and simple. I always contended
that the Catholics had an unanswerable claim to a full
participation in: the rights of the Constitution_-and from
these sentiments I never swerved, and I hope, never
shall depart. It is, my Lords, therefore, no small
gratification to me now to see justice done to those prin-
ciples and to those views which I so long entertained,—
The Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack has de-
scribed, in eloquent terms, the difficulties of a divided Ca-
binet. Against these evils I long ago protested; these
were the objections which interposed themselves to my
taking place, or making part in the Councils of my
Sovereign. I have not however, now, may Lord, any un-
pleasing recollections of these transactions. lam thank-
ful for the boon which is about to be given to my fellow
subjects in Ireland ; it is a source of unmixed gratifica-
tion to me, that proof is thus given of the purity of
those principles, and of the propriety of that conduct
which I have pursued ; and that that confirmation is thus
made of the soundness of principle which actuated that
great and immortal man, who, on the 18th of March, in
the year 1779, (the same day on which this Bill was read
a second time in the House of Commons) stated in his place
there, in terms which will ever be remembered by pos-
terity, the necessity, the imperious necessity, of giving to
the Catholics of Ireland that justice to which they were en-
titled. I, on behalf then, my Lords, of all those grew
men, whose names are associated with tlsis measure, I re-
turn thanks for the justice which has been dune to their
memories. Ino longer regret the loss of time which has
taken place in its progrees, and I am, as I said before, blind
to the circumstances which attended the delay, though of
a personal nature to myself when I look, as I do
now with confidence to its final accomplishment.—
I receive with unqualified gratification the measure which
the Noble Duke has proposed, and I shall sit down with
stating my conviction, that the country will fed towards
that noble individual the same gratitude for this boon of
peace, which they confess to have received at his hands
as the triumph of war, and be as little churlish to admit the
one, as they have been prodigal in testifying to the other.
Lord TENTERDEN explained.

Lord REDESDALE now rose to address the House,
but the cries of " Question" were so loud, and the confu-
sion so great, that he was obliged to sit down.
The Earl of ELDON (amid much noise) then came to
the table. My Lords, he said, I was strongly disposed
to abstain altogether from offering myself to your
notice, conscious that to those who concur in opiniot).
me, I could have but little new to advance, and that to
those Woo differed from me, this was a question upon
which I could but little hope, by any reasoning of
mind, to make any impressio4l, My Lords, I am willing
to give full credit to the N9,ble Earl (Grey) who
has addressed you, for the compliment which lie was
pleased to pay me, by erecting me into the situation of a
leader of a party, but I can assure your Lordships that
there is no one who more sensibly feels his incompetence
to discharge the responsible office to which that Noble
Lord has appointed me, than I do.—(Hear. !Isar; hear.)
_My first remark upon this 1341, and ti,e discussions
to which it ha, lei, i,s, m Lords, that of unmixed sa-
tistactiou, that in these debater, as far as they have gone,
there has been almost a total absence of personal allusions
amongst your Lordships. The proposition which the
ble Duke has made to your Lordp':,::pa i. assuredly one
which he would hi., b,,uiul to make one time or other, but
that it is made now, is to me a matter:of great sur-.
priaa,—(lTear, hear, hear.) A 'say, my Lords,, that the
bringing it forward at thil crittical tn9ment tins t7O. me
matter of great 15,‘tpiise, and believe, to, the couiitry
wilielt by some weans or (At4q tinc!or
impression
Lordships have been toll,
a bbattid in
that it had been utt,..i. •
T Li •
ster of the Crown not to disclose his intention; with re,
that
iesd the.
spect to any public meat,ure, till he shall have obtained the
appro,batmn of bit, Sovereign to that particular measure.
froul that doctrine I do not dissent. I3ut 1 say this,

my Lords; that if uninttlationally, and by mistake, it tray
intimated abroad that no such proposition as this
was to be made,—then, I insist that the people of the
country have been taken by surprise, and that upon t.
measure, too, which is dearer co them than their livets---

opon a measure which is their property, for, in the

words of Lied S'ormere, " the Church was the property
of the subject.—(Cheers.)—This is the measure in which
they were taken by surprise,—this the property which
was attacked, the most valuable inheritance which they
could leave to their children. I say, my Lords, that at
the close of the last Session the Noble Duke placed the
people of this country in a situation to believe that this
question was, for a time at least, to he left in a
state of oblivion. I say that the Noble Duke, by a mis-
hap, if it was nothing else, furnished a Roman Catholic
Bishop with the means of relating to the world, in the
month of December last, that it Wes not his intention to
forward a measure of this nature this Session, and
that therefore the country was warranted in believing that
no such measure was in contemplation ; and, I must say,
that it has been to the people of this country a great mis-
fortune, that a general apathy was generated by the assur-
ance that no such thing was intended.—(Cheers.) To
this effect contributed also not a little the couduct and de-
clarations of a Right Honourable Gentleman in the
other :House (Mr. Peel), of rwhom, as it occurs to
ine, to mention his name; I wish it to be under-
stood that lam not under the influence of any feeling of
irritation towards him, I solemnly declare, and I wish to
state it here in my vindication, that I have no unfriendly
feeling towards that Right Hon. Gent, we have long
acted together, we have always acted, I believe, in the
strictest concert, and I have thought that the idem
;dent relic, was as safe a cowrie as I could take with
any colleague in politics.—(Hear, hear.)—For fifteen
years we have acted together ; I have always had the most
perfect confidence in his couucils, and now that we have
parted company, and differed in opinion, it would be as un-
generous as unjust, in me to in sinuate, that the:advice
which he has given to his Sovereign, was not given with
the sincerest wish of do ng his duty.—(Cheers.)—Passing
then from the Right Hon. Gentleman, I come to answer
for myself. The late Lord Privy Seal (Lord Westmor-
land), whom I am sorry not to see in his place, has been
pleased to arraign me at the bar of this House for my con-
duct while we were fellow servants of our
,Sovereign,
I can only say that if the charge be made upon just grounds
that Noble Lord is not free from impeachment for so long
suffering me to sit with him in the King's Councils.
I heard the proposition laid down last night, that it was
the duty of any man who fonnd himself a member of a
divided Cabinet to withdraw from it. 1 must say that I
have heard a different opirion from Mr. Pitt and Lord
Liverpool, I might quote other great names in support of
this opinion, but I think I have covered myself with au-
thority enough, and therefore, I say, that I could not feel
it my duty to retire from a Cabinet which was divided
unless an opportunity presented itself of forming a united
Cabinet. The Noble Lord on the Woolsack will excuse
me for stating that if he considered it his duty not
to remain a member of a divided Cabinet, he must,
I think have extreniely good luck to go through
the Cabinet up to a certain period of his friend his Grace
the Duke of Wellington—the Cabinet of his esteemed
friend Viscount Goderich—and the Cabinet of his Hon.
Friend Mr. Canning.—(Hear, and laughter.)—The Noble
Lord on the Woolsack was pleased to say last night that
he would not address me as his friend, in consequence
of an observation which I made on a former occasion.
What I then stated was, that I would not call him my
friend who insinuated that I acted insidiously, or
that I looked to expedients and mystification, and
mentioned soy opinions with respect to the Union with
Scotland, in a manner which I could not but feel most
disrespectful to my feelings.—( Hear, hear.)—He would
tell the Noble Lord on the Woolsack, that those who had
known him for many years, would, he hoped and
trusted, say of him, that they knew not a man of
a more kind heart in the world.—(Hear, hear, hear,)---
Upon the subject of the remarks which the Noble Lord
on the Woolsack has thought proper to make with refer-
ence to me, all I shall say in reply is this—that there is 'a
sort of indecorum in these personal allusions between a
Chancellor on the Woolsack and an ex-Charceller—(a
laud.:)—and that disputes of such a nature had Letter be
settled by quiet words elsewhere, and not by intrudin
them on the public business of this idouse.—( Hear, hear.)
—lndeed, when the Noble and Learned Lord under'-
took what lie called a defence of his own consistency,
i thought it but natural to expect he would keep his word,
and prove what he It id stated to be his intention. What
however was the result ? Not a vindication of his consis-
tency, but a long and deliberate attack upon mine. 1
shouhi have preferred, I confess, to have been allowed to
defend myself, and I should have then readily admitted
what seemed to take the Noble Lord a good deal of time to
establish, namely, that consistency in the business
of a statesman is most certainly to be governed by the
pressure of events and circumstances ; all this I lona freely
and readily admit. Now as the Noble and Learned Lord
has challenged me to investigate his consistencies, I shall
venture upon the task, for I have in nay hand the speech
of an Attorney-General, upon which I must take the
liberty to comment. I do not mean his Majesty's late
Attorney-General, Sir Charles Wetheroll,—(laughter)—
who is, by the bye, one of the most learned, and what
is far better, one of the most honest and independent
members of the profession to which I have myself the
honor to belong.—(Hear,)—l do not, I say, mean him,
but I mean the Attorney-General who preceded 14:1-1
mean in fact the Noble and Learned Lard on the Wool-
sack ; and I am alluding to a speech in this House 113 late as
last June. He must excuse me if I feel a little diffidence
in reconciling that speech end his late conduct. That
very speech, I say it exactly defines my view of what was
done in the settlement of the Constitution, as established in
1688.—1 n fact, my doctrines upon this point I learned
from him. I stn too old, abruptly to change opiniena
which I have long cherished.—l am now at that stage of
life when I have the most indisputable authority #ys know-
ing, that what remains to me of must probably be
spent in infirmity and sorrow. lam in fact now vergiog
nearly on four-score, and I would fondly trusts tha>r siiels
has been my conduct through a long yid AT:lnoue hi 3. '
that
can look back upon it wit'nontheieg strnek bes' .
cl"'".er.—('Clieers.)-11 I
die taint ofany
mark or stain effectiog
have gone on so long
hieing compromised, I will
not now expose ,e
myseii to the agony of a change. Imp:1-
.416'7:s have been cast upon me, however, which I feel I
do not deserve, and I am enaboldened to repel them in the
presence of the parties who gave them.—(Hear,
The first of these attacks upon me seems to be that I was a
willing party to the Act of Relief of 1791. Now, I was
I Tien
I.l° was officially no party to this Act; it was introduced I know
aonasl tetsi•orayr,t,:i
:osttn!:t)haletf
into the other House of Parliament by Lord Redesdel,e, '
and had that sort of support, I Admit, ,e,,:em me,
which my affection and respect for ;ilea dictated, and which
has been maintained betweeei :es fere half a century. In
t
reat
eoll
sisuaorsi Idde
::aahamdeveyAntlocLi shiers to,o
f.:;ln:dta,as
I,oed‘,ovvn.hol
ismer
the policy ef. our Constitution as cemented in 1688. lam
entified with
, could have
Act passed by the Parliament of Ireland, which 1, of
Scotch Act of 1 foe which I am also to be rendered
though I was about that time a good deal ceniroyeei a.
your Lordships' bar as Ceetrascal S:eotteli cawns,
found myself so Brats peoficient in Scottish laws and felt
stecitt a dtqcntty iii beireg master tj it wit
hout an trite:lse,
aetd, to. Me. are iseopyeyl~At
i!,eplicetion, that I left all mat,l
tors
A h with that law to those who troz..-e
i •
_onapetent to undertake them. Ne,f4a, Leeksheolll recole
lest that there was then stets.., iNrkon, in Pottliament, the
father of a Noble. F od esehom I mew see opposite.
4,944 14.X.VILLE, (across the table,) you mistake
my father was not thee Lord Advocate for Scotland.

Lord ELDON—So far, then, I am wrong; but I reccP,(4.l
that the Noble Lord's father was thee, cl‘.4...rAber of his
Majesty's Government; im.rA th4t be always assisted the

0 Pei' Ce

T.oril Advocate of Scotland velth his able and amp
advice upon matter, connected with Scottish law, I nad
therefore little or no concern at that time with such mat-
ters ; but I am quite ready to say that I was an assenting
and assisting p irty to that law. My mind at that tithe was
not so much taken up with politics as serge Noble Lords
appear to think ; my ambition was then directed to the Chief
Justiceship of the Common Pleas to which my revered
and dear sovereign prevented toe. I was afterwards by
the gracious condescension of my sovereign made Lord
Chancellor in 1804-5, where I remained, with the excep-tion of a short interval, for 25 years. I know well that
during that period few persons Were more exposed to obloquy
:han I was. I met that obloquy, however, by as careful
and attentive devotion of my time to the duties of my
office as it was possible for me to give it, and though
know it is possible that it may be a pleasant thing in the
[louse of Peers to catch an old Chancellor, it behoves him to
have a share in the joke if be ein.—(Laughter.)---And
indeed if one could compare a serious case of public legis_
latio❑ with a private and personal transaction, I could
sate an anecdote, I think almost quite in polat upon thi
business. I was many years ago at Buxton, with a vene- a
rable and deceased friend of mine, Lord Thurlow, who
had gone there for the benefit of the waters. Whilst sit-
ting with him one evening in a room at one of the inns,
we were informed that there were six or eight persons
who meant on the next morning to have at the bath what
they called a splash at the Ex-Chancellor.—(Much
Lughter.)—Well, Sir, said Lord Thurlow, let them
have a splash at me if they like, but what
is there to prevent me from having a splash in return.—
(Renewed laughter.)—Well then, that is all I want on the
present occasion. Now, with reference to what I have
done at the times referred to, I always acted under the ful.
responsibility of whatever station I happened to hold, and
gave my best and honestest advice to my Sovereign of that
day, always bearing in mind that he was not to be consi-
dered the only man in his Majesty's dominions, who was not
to be considered at liberty to express his own opinions upon
a great public question.—(Hear, hear, hear.)—When
Noble Lords allude to what I have done when a
member of his Majesty's Government, they will
surely allow me to state what I know of their opinions
when acting with me. In 1817, when my Noble Friend
opposite, if he will allow me to call him so, when he was
a Member of his Majesty's Government—
The Duke of WELLINGTON—I was not.

The Earl of ELDON—WeII, then, what I am about to
explain is simply this—l was then influenced by what I
now know to have been an erroneous opinion,
that persons qualified to serve in the army in
Ireland, being as all military men are under
the orders of the Crown, could have been brought
here without the specific intervention of any new Act of
Parliament ? There were those, however, who thought
that it was not safe to trust to the common law in the re-
moval of these soldiers from Ireland to England, and that
it was safer to have a specific Bill for the purpose, I
ask, what was there in that Act to confer a new political
power upon the Catholic interests? My objection always
has been upon this question to the admission of Catholics
to political power to either House of Parliament, which
would lead to their having that power, or to any of the
gn
opreeant
tooffitcheesmo f? It a( tHe
ear, ehaar.r)e_n ,
In none
.8 eee
of ttho be.ee tActshwroi
which participations is ascribed to me, is there any inroad
upon our Protestant Constitution. And here when we
are arguing this question, let me at once say that I do not
at all rely upon the construction which some persons have
put upon his Majesty's Coronation Oath : the sole intent
and meaning of which is—that his Alajesty is bound to
execute the law as the Legislature impeses upon him. I
do not at all, I say, rely upon any dependence on the con-
struction
of that oath—l rather prefer going at once into
the spirit and principle of the Constitution as cemented in
1688.—(Hear, hear.)—The full and fair purpose of the
settlement of the law as then constituted, was this and
this only—that the Cunstitutiou should be cesentially Pro.,
testant : the Throne Protestant: the Parliament 7.l)roteatant
and the great officers pf State Protestant. Mind, Ido not,
mean to contend that however essentially necessary at the
time were these precautions, that they were never under
any change of circumstances to be liable to modification or
alteration. All 1 mean to show is, that such was the na,„
ture of the Act of 13th Chas. 11. aid 25th and :loth, whm,,..
were all directed to maintain an exclusively Protestant
asceudaney. Exactly in the same spirit was the Act of
Queen Anne for the Union of Seotlaiol. There bgaio
was alike recognised the strong n,:ceatilty that our Cons 6
tution should be fundamentally Protestant. That was the.
clear end plain governing principle. I know enough of his-
tory to know, however, that laws so planied must abide
the eventual modification of circumstances. But it must
be upon a clear and palpable gresund of necessity. The
feelings of the people are identified with the ee lawr. These
feelings will nereaseeily be affected by any alteration of
them. Where, then, is this necessity ? Show it to we.
and I will endeavour to deal with it. At present I deny
its existence. I see it net. I can there Pore neither
shape my comae by it, nor grapple witlt.it.—(Hear.)
My Lords, I think I may venture to say, that duty ;6 fel t
both by him and you, as one V. the most promieent tciee,
you have to execute tO preserve in this Protestant king-
dom the Protestant religion invialate.or
tend, that if the safety of this Protestant kingdom is not
ts,
to be preserved, that it is to be preserved by a Protestant
kiugdoio, a Protestant House of Peers, end Protestant
douse of Commons. I have 'contended that you may
make alterations which may subvert the system on milt el,
matte slr .rations,
ich
rd
ities
mind fotlfret eagtrli;oraoltiteDe Protestant
pt%)%•1e11;30.u,
ora:ol4iitnyieics)ett,
oeviitnitotiaineffosi Governmentuubleeorfisnet.eihodxueeira.
ttolil
Ascendancy of the country. That it was the to the
t po
d
soeiation should be put downs, meet readily believta, tc
that dote% say it has,—but if it },ass by its
provisions he uesy way affected the rem•:i*ies at common
tilau"al'ilatlitthei;ra7biet realle.:l; eithiefeA).s.*°Beilll7.b.wußt itor eceo•illnl nn'oolti ainntir-
its
in3"441 elects. There is likewise another measure
to Iv~law thi", I mean tl:e Disfranchisement Bill. My
l'.°4‘ll" Idu wish Noble Linda to consid, r the provisions •
,
of that Bill, as it may operate in other places, and affect.
the Constitution. My Lords, if that Bill is built upon.
speculation of what has been, or has not been, it will not.
answer the purposes intended. Your Lordships alse like-
wise to consider, that if you are to exercise the power
now proposed, you may have inconvenience in electing:
Members for Parliament. You will twee many se•thane,
the power of electing, and may helve the Legisieaure witb-
out the return of those very Meenbees whieli the measure
is intended to secure. I confess, my Lords, the oily dif-
ficulty I have, looking at the Bill, is that 1 cannot agree
to, :.11.0tber measure, to which, if it stood by itself,
I should most gladly give my asseatt. My Lords, that
other Bill is the one which I :lee not recollect the Ne;ok
Duke mentioned on the eig-lit on which he introdefeed this
question. Now YeSlee respect to that Bill, my humble
opinion ie., ;beet it is a measure by which I. yea by no tneane
,asele 10, My Lords, I shall not eittea into the construe-
' tion of the Acts of the Union of 7inegliand and Scotland, and
that of the Revelation, 1.4, been gone into, by my
Noble Friend, the Z,,ord CbiefJustice. My Lortfs, the Noble
Eart velea leas just sat down, whew talersta4ild consistency
must entitle him to great respect, seeesied to take some of-
Fence at the terms the Learnee\ heel Noble Lord made use
of, that he was a frientt so, civil and rcligi-tut lilt.-rty. I
am sure, my Lpgds, the. Noble and Lattutd Lord meant eta
such cwAtrurtion,tq,be Ott newt% the term, he made ale
tleet, which, the /s;nlile bird pat urn it. it
WP4i vaiuful duty to oppose last year the. iti:peal of the
'feet and Corporation Acts.—(lfee:a, lean )—I did se-
teas mTT
efl
seaaoyupsci):;; oElnnft:Arhltat(lsit Yuio'}t s"ua- "Church
that the tel°)ef'' 'Lg. el;b:.'oduof
Ireland, :ea in danger without tie E-te-tellshed Church of
flugland being in danger alse—;t nos ever been my opi-
nion that it was the duty Government to form the
best and purest system of, relizion that the mind• of man'