The Sun.
London, England, 1845-05-03 00:00:00

semination of error. That was not a temporary excitement, it
was a deep-seated feeling, likely to last far some considerable
time. He would venture to say that that feeling would not be
extinct at the period of the next election ; and his own o;dnion
was, that if the House forced through this measure now, and
made it law, it would be swept out of the statute-book before
the new Parliament had long commences its labour.—(" Hear,
hear," and ironical cheering. ) What was the language of the
Irish hierarchy ? They thought the brew a contemptible oue,
and he would quote the language of Mr. O'Connell to show
the estimation in•which he held it. ( The Hon. Gentleman
then read the letter of Mr. O'Connell, dated the loth of
April, accepting the invitation to a public dinner at Cork. )
It was evident f om that letter that the Hon. and Learned
Member for Cork was d. tcrmincd on seeking for repeal, and
would make use cf every concession that that House might
make to further his objects. He regretted being obliged to op-
pose the Right Hen. Gentleman below him, but he felt it a
duty to do so. He opposed the measure before, he opposed it
that night, end he would oppose it to the end. He felt it a duty
which he owed tothe Protestants of that country, most solemnly
and earnestly to protest against the measure.—(" Hear, hear,
and cries of " Divide, divide.")
The SPEAKER asked the Hon. Member for Ashton-under-
Lyne what were the terms of his motion ?
Sir. lIINDLEY—I move that you, Sir, do leave the chair
this day six montlis.—( Shouts of laughter. )
Colonel SIBTHORP seconded the motion.
Colonel VERNER rose, amidst loud cries of "Divide,
divide." lie said he regretted that the Right lion. Gentle-
man had not tat en time to collect the opinion of the Protestants
of this ecuntry before he proposed the present measure. lie
hoped the Right lion. Baronet would give the country an op-
portunity of expressing their real sentiments upon this measure.
Mr. RE.DDINGTON sail that, as the Gallant Camel had
chosen' to speak for the Protestants of Jr. land, he (Mr. Red-
dington), although a Roman Catholic, must protest against his
declaration as expressing the opinion of the people of Ireland.
In the district in which he resided, there were several Con-
servatives who were in favour of and petitioned for the mea-
sure—( Hear, hear)—and the wish of these gentlemen was that
further remedial measures might be introduced.
Sir R. PEEL said that whatever the opinions of individual
Members might be, he did not think it was the wish of any
party to divide on this oecasien.—(Cries of " Hear,
hear.") The general understanding was that they would go
into Committee on the Bill to-night and report progress. He
lisped that the lion. Member for Kent would not think
he was guilty of any disrespect in declining to accede to his
proposition.—(Hear.) He felt bound to say that, with great
respect to the lion. Member, he was firmly determined to
persevere with his Bill.—( Hear.) He had postponed the de-
bate on the Bill until Friday, because the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman the Member for Oxford, and other lion. Members,
thought that the measure could not be properly discussed
if it had not been postponed to that day. The Protestants of
Ireland were, he believed, in favour of the measure, and he
was justified in saying that it would engender kindly
feelings.—(Hear, hear.) He did not say that the
whole Protestant body were in favour of the measure.
lie held in his hand a declaration signed by the Protestant and
Roman Catholic inhabitants of the county of Galway—that
declaration stated that the undersigned had heard with great
satisfaction of the proposition of her Majesty's Government,
for increasing the annual grant voted by Parliament- to the
Royal College of Maynooth, and that they felt the measure
was calculated to improve the social condition of the Reman
Catholic clergy in Ireland, and therefore to improve the social
condition of the country. This declaration was signed by
thirty-four magistrates, Protestant and Roman Catholic, by
several of the clergy, headed by the Roman Catholic Bishop—
it was signed by Mr. Daly, and by several Protestant pro-
prietors—in fact, by the principal Protestant proprietors of the
county. In fact, among the proprietors, who were chiefly Pro-
testants, there existed, he would not say au universal, but
certainly a very general sentiment of approval of the measure
which had been proposed by her Majesty's Government. He
was perfectly justified in saying that in Ireland there was
much less opposition manifested on the part of the Church and
the Presbyterians of that country than in England. He
would not set the example of entering into a discussion of
the principles of the Bill, but he would still retain the opinion
which he had already expressed.
Lord J. RUSSELL asked if it was the intention of his
Hon. Friend, and those who acted with him, totake a division
on every part of the Bill in Committee; and, if so, he would
be glad if he stated what parts of the Bill they were?
Sir R. INGLIS said that he was not aware of any intention
on the part of any Members to take the sense of the House on
any other clauses than those to which amendments were con-
templated by his Hon. Friend (Mr. O'Brien) and the Hon.
Member for Hull (Mr. Hanmer). He felt that having been
indulged by the House for a considerable length of time, en
former occasions, on the principles of the Bill, it would not be
right for him to take up their attention a third time.
Sir A. BROOKE said that though he should be sorry to
intrude himself on the House, yet he wished to say that, in the
north of England, there was no distinction between the Roman
Catholicsand Protestants. They enjoyed one advantage which
other parts of Ireland could not boast of, for they were not
cursed with that agitation which the south of Ireland had been
convulsed with ; and as long as they continued so, the same
kind feeling would exist between the Roman Catholics and Pro-
testants in the north of England. It was his anxious wish that
a sound and liberal education should be extended to all classes,
but as the constitution of this country was founded on Protes-
tant principles, he did not see how the Government could con-
sistently with those principles maintain an establishment at
Maynooth for the purl use of propagating the Roman Catholic
religion. The education there must have a tendency to narrow
arcontract the mind, and to cultivate the most intolerant
notions of the infallibility of the Roman Catholic doctrines.
Upon these grounds he opposed the measure.
The House then divided :
For going into Committee... l6O
For Mr. Hindley's amendment 52
Majority for going into Committee .. —lOB
The House then went into Committee on the BilL
On the proposal of the first clause,
Sir R. INGLIS submitted as an amendment to the first
clause, which created the perpetual incorporation of the trustees
of the College of Maynooth, that the power vested in the
trustees might be placed in the hands of that body which had
been created by the Act of last session, namely, the Charitable
Bequests Act. Ile would leave it to her Majesty's Govern-
ment to consider whether they would accede to that amend-
INIAYNOOTH. ' ment, but he would not give the House the trouble of
Sir R. PEEL presented petitions from P.oehdale, and places dividing on it.
in Bedfordshire, in favour of the grant to Maynooth. Sir R. PEEL said that he should inform his Right Hon.
Mr. HUNIE presented two petitions from Arbroath against Friend that he could not acquiesce with his proposition, for he
tb . grant to Maynooth. The petitioners regarded all State (Sir R. Inglis) did not propose that . the endowment should be
assistance to religious denominations as unjust, unnecessary, less, but merely proposed that those employed to regulate t:- at
and impolitic, and on that ground they prayed the House nut endowment should be the parsons who were lately employed
to pass this measure. under the Charitable Bequests Act. The reason he differed
Mr. Ewart, Mr. Lawson, and Mr. Smollet presented peti- from his Right Hon Friend was, because he apprehended that
tions against the Bill. the duties of the trustees of the Charitable Bequests Bill, and
Petitions against the grant were presented by Lord Claude those under the Maynooth Bill were not such as would war-
Hamilton, by Mr. D'lsraeli, by Mr. 'Twice Captain Peelle'', rant their identifieation. His great and principal objection to
Mr. S. Crawford, Mr. C. Bruce, Colonel Fox. Lord Ebring- the adoption of this course was, that the adoption of such a
ton, Mr. Forbes, Sir C. Lemon, and Mr. Denison (Surrey). measure would be an unworthy and underhand implication of
On the motion that the Speaker do leave the Chair, suspicion.—( Hear, bear.) He found, upon reference to cer-
Mr. HINDLEY said that in rising to object to the Speaker fain documents, that the trustees of the College of Maynooth,
leaving the chair, ho was only discharging a painful duty, and appointed by the Irish Parliament, had been confirmed by the
one which he undertook individually, without concert with any Imperial Legislature.—( Hear, hear.) Nay, more, he found
other Member of that House. He felt great regret that the that the Irish Lord Chancellor, and the Master of the Rolls,
Government thought it consistent with their duty to go en who, under the Irish Act, held the offices of Directors of the
with the present measure. What was it doing in England ? College, were removed by the English Parliament, and placed
It was throwing the whole country into convulsions. It would in the position of Visitors merely, and the board of superin -
raise the fires of religion, which would not easily be destroyed. tendenct made exclusively Catholic, On those grounds, then,
—(Laughter.) It would make the next election a polemical he should say, that he could not be induced to assent to this
arena, where the religion of every man would be taken into amendment.
consideration. The Right Hon. Baronet must be aware that The question was then put on the amendment, and negae
this measure had excited such dissatisfaction that at least tived without a division.
1,200 individuals had been induced to come up from the coon- Two other clauses were then agreed to without opposition.
try, and spend several days in the metropolis, to protest Upon reading the next clause, that in reference to the mart•
against the measure. As the Right Hon. Gentleman the main laws,
Member for Newark said, the country was against the measure. Sir JOHN HANMER rose to move the omission of the
Let not the House imagine that they were wiser than all Eng- words which limit the trustees of Maynooth College in taking
land—(Laughter)—or that, because they happened to have any real property with which it may be desired voluntarily to
secured their seats in Parliament, they were to act in contra- endow them. 'fhe reason he moved this amendment was
diction to the feelings of the people of the whole country. He because he was unwilling to see the Government burthening
would repeat it, that nathing could be more opposed to the itself with those troublesome obsolete ecclesiastical laws.
feelings—or the prejudices, if they would—of the Protestants of ( Hear, hear.) He could see no• reason why the Roman Ca..
England than this measure. He would ask, if this measure had tholics should be deterred from pursuing their own system of
created so much ill-feeling and confusion in England, did it at education, by those shadows of old feudal laws, known by the
the same time effect any good in Ireland?—(Laughter.) He name of the laws of mortmain. The Hon. Baronet then re-
had heard it said that a great deal should be done to conciliate ferred to the statutes of mortmain, passed in the reigns of
Ireland. lie would admit it, and he would be ready to sacrifice Richard 11., Henry VIII., Charles 1., and George 11., and
everything but principle to do so. But can it be believed that contended that none of the provisions of those statutes ap-
this measure would have that effect ? He denied that it would, plied to Ireland, and said he could not concur in the pro.
and in order to prove his assertion, let him read a letter which visions of the clause retaining those of mortmain. He had
had recently appeared in the public prints, from the promised that he would not detain the House by entering on
pen of the Right Reverend Dr. Higgins, a Roman Ca- the general policy of the Bill; but he thought this was such
tholic Bishop in Ireland.—( Loud cries of " Oh, oh," an important question that it warranted his calling the at-
order and laughter, amidst which the Hen. Member attempted tention of the House to it.
to persevere, but he would not be permitted. He then pro- Mr. T. B. C. SMITH said, that the Honourable
DEPTFORD lAIPROVEMENT BILL. ceeded to read extracts from the letter as if he were continuing Member for Hull had somewhat misrepresented the sta.
Mr. BARNEBY his speech.) He then went on to say that he did believe that tute as it at present stood, for by the Ist and 2d of Geo. 111.
DIRECT
GLASGOW, BARR lIE AD, AND NEILSI ON the last week had created a feeling in favour of the repeal of the the Government were empowered to dispense with the law of
presented petitions against,
RAILWAY. union in England, and he felt convinced that the Dissenters mortmain. He admitted the fact as stated by his Honourable
This Bill was read a second time. would rather consent to that measure than that Ireland should Friend ( Sir J. Hanmer) that a man might sell a whole town-
petition
several
of
BRISTOL AND EXETER RAILWAY. be made prosperous at the expense of England. He would not ship and bequeath the money to the College of Maynooth. It
On the motion that this Bill be read a second time,
this Bill.
trespass further upon the time of the House ; but if any Hon. might be so, but the Hon. Member must be aware that
Fane, and leave the Chair for the purpose of going on with this Bill in The cases did not afford a parallel. If a particular eircum-
Mr. G. BAN KES said that he would take that opportunity Member world second his proposition, that the Speaker do not property in land and sums in money were very different things.
fhreormtenLaandivs,Gaeg°arignsiatirhe passing of Committee—(Great laughter)—he would divide the House starve required the setting aside of that writ, all that was re-
ootfheprrs,eseantitdi presenting
this Bill. lie believed that this Bill was in a peculiar po- upon it.—(Hear, hear.) quired of the Roman Catholic College, was to make out a case
sition. It had been taken into consideration by the Corn- Colonel SIBTHORP said if he could conceive that there to the Government, which would exercise its discretion as to
mittee previ us to the second reading. It was certainly an would be the least chance of the Hon. Member opposite sue- whether they would be allowed to exceed the limitations fixed
anomaly in the proceedings of Parliament, that the principle in ceeding in his motion he would second it, but he did not think by 4tatute. By such means they might be allowed to obtain
the details of a Bill should be decided upon before it had his doing so would have the least effect.—( Laughter. ) He and to hold an unlimited amount of property. Oa these
been approved upon by the House at large. He should there- had been accustomed to judge of men by their actions, and grounds, and seeing no necessity for the amendment of the
fore beg the especial consideration of the House to the petit ion therefore he should say that the Right Hon. Baronet at the Honourable Member, he should feel it his duty to oppose it.
which he had now to present, which prayed that the petitoner head of her Majesty's Government had not shown himself a Mr. HINDLEY hoped that the Hon. Member would not
might be heard before the Committee personally or by counsel. practical Protestant in this instance, for he did not, as divide the House upon it.
The SPEAKER said that the plan which the Hon. Mem- he was bound to do as a Minister of the Crown, Lord J. MANNERS could have wished that the Right
ber ought to adopt would be to move fur the reference of the use his best efforts to uphold the Christian religion. Hon. Gentleman the Attorney-General for Ireland had given
petitions to the Select Committee. There would be three If the measure was so important, why should he delay its third some reason for limiting the amount of landed property to the
clear days before the Ist of June, between the decision of the reading until the 19th of May? He would have entertained a College of Maynooth to 3,0001. He could not see the prin.
Committee and the consideration of the Bill in the House. better opinion of the Right lion. Baronet, if he had gone on ciple on which this restriction was based, neither could h-' un-
Mr. BAN KES acted on this suggestion, and the petitions with it without the slightest delay. How would the Right Hon. derstand why there should be a fixed standard at all. He
were referred to the Select Committee.—[ It will be recollected Baronet stand with the elections, if he were to dissolve Parlia- thought that as Oxford and Cambridge were unfettered by this
by our readers, that in our report of the proceedings of the Se- ment?—( Hear, hear.) On one of the most important ques- law, Maynooth should be just as liberally dealt with. He
lect Committee on the Bristol and Exeter Railway Bill tions the Right Hon. Baronet was forced to have recourse would give his willing support to the amendment of his Hon.
it was stated by Mr. Merrewether, Counsel to the support of men who were only seeking Friend.
for some of the petitioners against the Bill, that to undermine him.—(Laughter.) lie did not blame them for Mr. ROEBUCK, in a few words, which were almost in-
the Bill hail not been read a second time in the House of it, but he did not like truckling.—( Renewed laughter.) Those audible, opposed the amendment.
Commons, and that the Committee were competent to take were days when people thought but of themselves, but the Sir R. H. INGLIS was of opinion that the existing ad-
evidence in favour or against the bill, though they were un- Right Hon. Gentleman would go anywhere for a 'friend.— vantage of the Church of Ireland should not be interfered with.
able to exclude the prayer of any petitioner, and of course to ( Continued laughter.) But why did he not ask the country In this opinion he was opposed by his lion. Friend, who had
decide on the preamble. The Chairman, the Ho- how they liked his policy? He came into power on very no desire to exclude his Catholic fellow-subjects from tleions;sited
ad-
nourable J. li. Liddell, and the Committee, taking different professions. He was then for Church and State, and vantaes. The universities of Enland nurseries of
surely
Protestantism.
this view of the matter, the further consideration of the for the agricultural interest. But how would the Right Hon. to the preference, they being the
the same sense as
was deferred in order that the Bill might be read a Baronet be now received in Mart-lane?—(Great laughter.) lie did net hold maintaining the Church in
preamble Inglis) held that
(Sir R. H.
second time in the Commons, and that they might proceed The first quality in a Minister was consistency. The Right the Right Hon. Baronet, for he
and Ireland meant
its merits
legitimately to the consideration, of 1
Hon. Gentleman professed himself their protector, supporter, maintaining the . United Church of England
MAY NOOTH.
and friend, but he took them in and deceived them. This was mintaining it in all its endowments,
and in all its privileges.
1 Mr. Broadley, amendment.
Colonel Conolly, Mr. Thorne y, ley, Lord North- only the first of a series of measures which he had in contempla- He should oppose the
that he would be allowed to trouble the
land, and other lion. Members, presented petitions against the tion. He should say, with deep regret, that he had no con- Sir R. PEEL hopedo
words
on this subject. An Hon. Mein-
grant to Maynooth. fidenee in any party ; he did not know where to look for anya House with one or tw
him whether he should prefer that the College of
Mr. Alderman HUMPHERY presented a petition from thing on which he could ground any hopes for the safety and ber had asked_
be idled with land or money. As a mere
the parish of St. George's, Southwark, signed by 800 persons, honour of the country.—( Laughter. ) He hoped he had in- Maynooth should
of l'cy he (gSir R. Peel) should considerably prefer
against the Maynooth grant. dependent feeling enough to vote against any men who showed matter
Pcnlie thought that as there must be some limit
petitions
Sir R. INGLIS presented against the proposed, such inconsistency. He should feel very strongly upon any thelatter.
year was a fair one. He did not propose 3,0001.
or any grant to Maynooth, from places in the counties of Cum. question that would affect the maintenance of the Protestant 3,0001. y
aof any jealousy to Maynooth, but he thought it right
berland, Essex, Gloucester, and from the counties of Down, Church. They had given their defiance to the opinions and because
how that sum should be managed, and if that sum were
Goat, and Donegal, in Ireland. feelings of the people of this country, and if the Minister of the to see
JEWISH DISABILITIES BILL. Crown should forget the duties he owed to one woh •whom he well-managed, the Crown could extend the power of holding
that more. He thought that the question relating to the statute of
apetition from a
Sir R. INGLIS presented large number was connected in council and advice, then tlie shooenseor badly
mortmain would be more conveniently dealt with at a future
of persons in Shropshire against the Jewish Disabilities Bill. Minister was removed from that situation which . _
UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD. filled the better. The Right Hon. Gentleman would findhim period.
opposed Mr. REDING TON said he would oppose themotion
Sir R. INGLIS presented a petition_ the Chancellor on that, as on all other occasions upon this question, on
Hon. Member for Hull, not because he was riot of
the
and Members of the University of Oxford, praying that no to him. of opinion
t were dis that Roman Catholics should be left unfettered to
alteration might he made in their Act. if the Governmen -
Sir. PLUMPTRE said, that it . leave landed
to Maynooth, ifthey
House the had is property
Sir J. TROLLOPE presented a petition from Holbeach, posed to force this measure through the . Y
h hadwho rmost interested in
change in the
for a all the measures which come we e
in Lincoln hire, prayinglnsolvent Debtors' their power to do so. Out of .
he hadthe honourof a that question to he introduced -
ecovery of debts Parliament, since incidentally.
Bill, with a view to the better r under 2j. ; under the notice of POLLINGTON said he voted against the measure,
also several t to AI
petitions against the gran
seat in that House, he should say .
f ' b • ld
consequences i it ut he wou vote for the •
Colonel ACTON presented a petition from the parish of sure, viewed in all itslbearing and probable_motion of the Hon. Member for
heshadviewed with so much re- Hull, on the ground of
Shillelagh--(Laughter)—in the county of Wicklow, against should pass into a law, thatleaving the Roman Catholic; at -
. The movement which
had been made by the Go- liberty to endow a College for themselves.
eerfeet
tiro grant to Maynooth. pugnance
one. It was unhappy. because After a few
wordy from Sir R. INGLIS el petitions
Mr. FERR AND presette from various parts of vernment was a most unhappy this measure, it would cause M S
England anal Ireland against the grant, if they were now to withdraw
of _ . r. HARMAN CRAWFORD •
Ireland. But that state things would for the Hon. 1% - said that he would vote
Mr. HAMILTON presented twenty petitions from various much agitation in'ember for ii '
t.wouldcalledbythe
be so unhappy, as he into existence should be no obstsei "ulli on- the ground -that there
places in Ireland against the gran t• . net
• of this Bill. He had always viewed the matter in that principle. ....re to endowments - upon the vohintary
Mr. DI VETT presented similar petitions from Exeter. passing
he had opposed this grant it was on this c" -
Mr. BRIG HT presented thirteen petitions against the grant. light, and whenever
Lord RENDLESHAM presented similar petitions from ground that he did so, and it _enthe same groun t -
He could not well see the reason
opposed it still. Those were the grounds on wis,-'" ... ne of the Right Hon. Baronet objecting to his proposal, after hay-
Suffolk. the measure. '*'• ...a the people ing voted for and carried the Charitable Bequests Act last year.
Colonel SIBTHORP
:. • . rte divine •h d b No evils ofthe d
tween truth and error, and , esti, e e• great had befallen the State by reason
Weees tb the same effect. es that light they viewed it. They ments of Cambridge and Oxford, which had risen to their ire-
Air, again"'
Alr, DUNCOMI3E presented a petition from Carlisle protested _
error, and they were arranged on the side of in gofvoluntary
laynooth. The petitioners complained hiss' sent greatness consequence . endowments. Any
against the grant to A., a ....i, and they said in their inward conscience that they could person who travelled through the countries bordering on the
thit he 3ill had been 19" ed th eu h the 'r g How Aga,"
. -, -la up,- _ •-•.. the ' not consent to allow the public money to be used in the dis- Mediterranean, or in the Peninsula, must aware that the

regard to the distance of the bishop from his flock,
the fact was, there was a railroad abedately now
forming which would pass through both the tones of
St. Asaph and Bangor, and would bring them as near to each
other as Liverpool and Alanchesler. lie felt deeply the indul-
gence of the House for his long trespass upon its patience at
that late hour of the night, but he did feel this to be a great
and an important qtlestion, and that it was absolutely necessary
for the equalisation of the spiritual duties of the country, that it
should be carried. If they would allow this business to be
worked by the ltieeleslastiesl Commissioners. If they would
allow them to undo the evils of former days, if they would allow
the Church to assert its own rights, and not raise the question
of the spiritual or political superintendence of the Church, they
would be best serving the interests of that Church. lie felt
that this was a question purely of principle, arid if it were net,
he would with plessure have voted for the Bill of the Noble
Lord (Earl Powis), but he felt bound to give it his most de-
cided, but most conscientious, op; osition.
The Bishop of St DAVID'S would have felt considerable
reluctance to rise on any ordinary occasion, but he was anxious
to clear up some little difficultywhirls had been thrown on the
qtiestion, and the more so as he thought the question hsd
assumed a new phase since he last addressed there. The Noble
Lord was mistaken tf he supposed that any one advocated this
question on any other grounds than tho,e ehich it could prefer
as being a part of the Church of England. No such idea as
that had ever existed in the mind of env individual. Put yet
the Church of \Vales had its rights an-d
its privile_ es, and if
the Campus \lartius of Perth and the Curragh of KiVare
could put in their claims to consideration, the Church of Wales
had also an equal rieht to the protection of the Government.
The Constitution did not recognise that any one indivi fuel of
the community should be sacrificed, much less such important
interests as those under consideration. The inhabitants of
Wales in this matter, as in many others, considered they had
been overlooked and neglected. This was a streng reason why
their Lordships ought to be cautious in dealine with such a
question. He did conceive his duty, knowing these feelings,
to call upon their Lordships to give their assent to the Bill be-
fore the House. He admitted that in the measures founded
on the first report of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, it might
be supposed that a benefit was proposed to be conferred on the
Church of Wales; but what could they think of this Commis-
sion, in their second report, which deprived North Wales
of one of her dioceses, and took its revenues and applied
them to support the general church funds ? Since he last ad-
dressed the House the state of the question was much
changed, as it was admitted, on the other side of the House,
that the law needed amendment, and that there was an injus-
tice which required to be redressed. He del admit the great
want of spiritual instruction in North Wales, and that if the
surplus funds to be disposed of were applied to improve that
spiritual instruction, great good might result from the mode in
which it was to be effected. He considered the speech of the
Noble Lord (Lord Stanley), consummate as it was in ability,
a tissue of falsehoods from beginning to end, having no other
intention than to divert the att.' ration of their Lordships from
the real merits of the question. 'that Noble Lord had endea-
voured to impress on their Lordships' minds that in consenting
to the Noble Lord's (Lord Powis's) Bill they would be up-
setting all that the Ecclesiastical Commissioners had done. He
(the Bishop of St. David's) admitted the great good that that
Commission had done, but so far from the present Bill
frustrating the labours of that Commission it would carry
them out in the most efficient manner. The measure of the
Noble Lord, so far from running counter to the report of the
Commission. carried out and confirmed that report in its most
material spirit and recommendations. He sincerely believed
that all that had been said respecting the revenues and super-
ficies of North Wales would not bear out the Noble Lord
(Stanley) in the general statements he had made respecting
the resources of the church in that district. This was not a
question whether it was more to the benefit of the Church
that she should retain her surplus revenues for the use of
the dioceses in North Wales, or apply those sur-
plus revenues to the spiritual instruction of populous
districts in other parts of the kingdom.--( Hear. )
He would beg to draw their attention to two or three points,
which he thought likely to make their Lordships think less of
the evils which tne Noble Lord had pointed out as likely to re-
sult from the adoption of this Bill. First, he would ask them;
if the principle which they proposed to carry out with respect
to the dioceses of St. Asaph and Bangor, had worked well
when reduced to practice on other occasions. He denied that
it did, but nn the contrary had proved most pernicious to the
interests of the Church.—(Loud cuies of " Question, ques-
tion," amid which the Right Rev. Prelate sat down.)
The Bishop of LONDON felt a deeply-rooted conviction,
which the experience of every year strengthened, that they
were bound to increase the number of bishoprics, and he
thought that if he had the Noble Lord (Stanley) as his coad-
jutor for owe month, he had no doubt of being able to convince
him not only of the desirableness, but of the necessity of in-
creasing the number of bishops.—( Hear, hear.) He should
not have touched upon that part of the subject had not the line
of argument used by the Noble Lord imposed upon him the
necessity of doing so. He could not consistently with the
opinions he entertained object to the Noble Earl's motion,
but, from the peculiar position in which he stood, he would
abstain from voting altogether.
The Earl of FITZWILLIAM hoped that the language in
which the Noble Lord had so beautifully clothed his sentiments,
would not dazzle their Lordships, or induce them to lose sight
of the argument which formed the burden of his speech. The
Noble Lord says you must not add to the number of bishops ; but
if the Noble Lord had been a short time in the position which
the Bishop had desired—coadjutor over a population of
I,Boo,ooo—he did not consider that the Noble Lord would talk
of any reduction in the number of Bishops.—( Hear, hear.)
Lord LYTTELTON thought that, with the number of
souls over which the Bishops had superintendence, instead
of a reduction in their number, that more of them were re-
quired.—( Hear, hear.)
The Earl of CA RNARVON said that after what had fallen
from the Noble Lord (Earl Fitzwilliam) and the Right Rev.
Prelates (the Bishops of St. David's and London) he could
rseeentnoof publicsui oseitpini
rea:nonwwhhicyhthhaeiyi
ss,h4oiunldinresfiasvtoutrheof sttrhoinsgmceuar:
sure. The almost universal feeling of the clergy of Wales,
and the all but unanimous sympathy of the laity, afforded a
great reason for carrying nut the measure before the House ;
and he did not see any reason to apprehend any of that dor-
mant hostility to the Church which was threatened on the in.
troduction of a new Bishop into that House. When he recol-
lected the great disparity which had arisen between
the temporal and the spiritual Peers, since the re-
volution, be could not but think that the erra•

voice of the country ; also several petitions, praying that the
arr,stment of wages should be done away with.
Mr. DUNCAN presented a petition from Ferfarshire
against the grant to Maynooth.
Mr. GODSON presented a petition from rcriain turnpike
road trustees, praying to b-heard by counsel atainst the 13erks
and Hampshire Railway.

Lion of new Bishops would sltutly be a necessity. At
the time the Eceli-s'astieal Commissioners made their report
and rt commeneed the abo'.ition of one of the Welsh st es, it was
apprehended that no fuuis could be raised for endowing the
new see of Manchester, but he was glad to find now, from
every side of the House, that there was no similar ground
of fear on th At account, and he therefore felt assured that had
the Commissioners been acquainted with the state of things as
they are at present, they never would advise that to which so
much allusion had been made. If the measure was not passed
it was his impression it would leave an impression of wrong on
the minds of the people of Wales; and when he recollected
the number of the petitions presented on ►his subject, and the
spirit by which the petioners were actuated, he could not
turn a deaf ear to their prayer.
The House then divided, when there appeared :
Contents present 63
Proxies 34— 97
Non-Contents 7l
Proxies 5B-129

Afnjority against the Bill
Their Lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, May 2.
The SPEAKER. took the chair at Four o'clock.
THE DUDDESTON AND NECHELLS IMPROVE-
MENT (No. 2) BILL.
This Bill, on the motion of Mr. SPOONER, was read a
second time, after a few words of opposition from Mr. Muntz.
RAILWAY COMMITTEES.
During the time of private business, Mr. OGEACIIY,
who formed one of the Committee on Group X, stated that
since the morning he had ascertained that he had a pecuniary
interest in one of the railways of the group on which he sat, and
he therefore begged to be ex. used any further attendance on the
Committee. The Hon. Gentleman was accordingly dis-
charged from any further attendance.
CORNWALL RAILWAY.
Sir G. GREY and Lord CLENIENTS presented a considerable
number of petitions in favour of the Cornwall and Devon
Railway Bill.
BRISTOL AND DORCHESTER RAILWAY.
time.
On the motion of Mr. MUNDY, this Bill was read a first

HARROGATE RAILWAY.
On the motion of Mr. BOWES, thin Bill was read a second
me.