The Sun.
London, England, 1829-02-13 00:00:00

Power, and talents, had not influence enough to turn the which keeps its own councils was . most likely to conduct
tide in favour of their own opinions, the fair inference was . the affairs of the ceeen edese• iee He admitted to
that the majority of the county was adverse to the claimsof the Hon. Baronet, ti. it iv heVe b.., n infinitely better
the Roman Catholics. He should further observe, that if if be could have ado t• d course which be was now pur_
it should fall to his lot to take part in the debates which suing in a private st..tion. He could only say, that e, cry
may take place on this subject, his object would be to che- thing it was possible 10. min to do he door ; ham when
rich the Protestant principle of the Constitution, as upon the question was this.--what advice will you giv ? Will
that principle he believed the stability and prosperity of the ' you advise the maintenance of the present sten! of things?
country depended.—(Hear, bear. )---The Hon. Member, in Certainly not. Will you advise the formation of an exclu-
conclusion, begged leave to present the petition. j sively Protestant Government, offering eternal and micom-
Lord F. OSBORNE said he did not rice to defend the I promising resistance ? His answer wax; that lie could not,
conduct of the Right Hon,' Secretary of State, who had because he knew that such a Government would fail, and
already performed that task so admirably for himself;, but in failing would render every thing worse than at present.
the Hon. Baronet had said that he saw nothing in the cir- (Hear.) If, then, he could take neither of those attune-
eamstartees of the country now which would not also have tives, but one course was left to be pursued—to attempt to
justified the Right Hon. Secretary in supporting Mr. Can- make a safe settlement ()lobe question by a united Govern-
ning when he was Minister. It appeared to him (Lord ment. That course imposed painful sacrifices on him; but
F. Osborne), from the progress of the Catholic question in would any one have him personally shrink from sacrifices
this Hawk, that it
.was one calculated to attract what he which he.advised others to submit to? (Hear.) Without
might call the mipledged Went of the House. In the the hesitation of a moment he determined, come what come
"twee of its progress it did attract two of its greatest and may, to remain and set an example himself of those sacrifices.
ebtOst powerful advocates, Mr. Canning and Mr. Plunkett. • Lord PALNIERSTON said, that if his Right Hon.
If we had been t.,ia during the last debate on this ques- Friend had taken offence at any thing which had fallen
non, when it had the support of those two great men, that from him on a preceding evening, he could assure him
we should have to deplore the loss of one, and that the that he meant none.
other would be taken away to another sphere of action, Sir E. KNATCHBULL, in bringing up the petition,
what would have been our expectations with respect to expressed his regret that the Right Hon. Gentleman had
this question ? Should we have tl ought that the majority felt it necessary to allude to what had paused in such
for it would increase or diminish? This was a consider- warmth of terms. He was aware of nothing that could
ration why he should not consider this question rested on have justified such warmth of expression. (Hear, hear.)
the power and support of eloquent advocates, but, was To the Right Hon. Gent. it belonged to advise his Save-
rooted on the judgment and reason of the representatives reign as he thought fit, and he doubted not he would ably
of the country. To say that his Right lion. Friend was discharge that duty; but to him (Sir E. Knatchbull)
Dot to judge and act from the course of events was not al- belonged the right, whenever he felt it his duty, to ques-
lowing him the power of reason, the results of which might ton the public character of any Minister. (Cheers.) No
he tnetitiplied indefinitely., but only the power of instinct, consideration on earth should prevent him from executing
tetieli always remained in the same state. He conera. that duty ; and lie only hoped that when called upon so to
tulated the House on the line which the Right Hon. Gen- act, he should ever conduct himself in a respectful manner
tletnan was about to follow. Ile was extremely glad at towards the House, and even towards the individual whose
the course which the Right Hon. Gentleman was about to conduct he arraigned. (Hear, bear.) One word with re-
Pursue, for if lie had adopted another, though he (Lord F. epect to what had fallen from his Noble Friend (Lord
Osborne) should have felt. it his duty to support him, he Clifton.) He could assure the House that he had not
could not have done so with the same cordiality he did asked a single individual to sign the petition, which he
nrEw.—( Hear. ) believed to express the free and spontaneous sentiments of
Lord CLIFTON had a petition from the same county those who had attached their names to it.. (Hear.)
105 that from which the Hon. Baronet was charged with Mr. W. DUNCOMBE observed, that the remarks
one, bnt of a different tendency, yet he was willing to bear which fell from the Hon. Member for Kent did not war-
witnees to the respectability of the numerous signatures rant the warmth of temper exhibited by the Right Hon.
etteelnel to the petition of the Hon. Member. To the Secretary in reply.—near.)—He must also take leave to
Clergy he bore that respect which was due to the sacred observe, that to say that any Member of that House had
Profs ion. For the gentlemen and freeholders of Kent not a right to arraign a Minister with respect to any pub-
Who signed that petition he had the highest respect. He lie measure which he had thought it his duty to recom-
was inclined to think, that the number of the signatures mend to Parliament, was a doctrine to which the people of
attached to. the petition which he should have the honour England had not hitherto given their consent.—(Hear.)
• "f presenting was not to be compared with the number of It was a doctrine to which he, one of the Representatives
signatures on the petithoi presented by his Hon. Friend, of a large county, would not consent to subscribe, and he
Yet the House should not suppose from that circumstance hoped that during the discussions which would take place
that it exprosed the opinion of the county. He wished on this question, he should exhibit every degree ottemper
to dram, the attention of the House to the wording of the whilst at the same time he would not compromise his dig.
respective petitions. The petition presented by the Hon. nity as a Member of Parliament, by surrendering his right
Baronet was mild and inoffensive in its object, and such a to arraign the conduct of any Government, or of any
00e as neither lie nor any of his friends would object to Minister. He did not think that the Hon. Baronet meant
affix their signatures to, were they not aware of the to impute unworthy motives to the Right Hon. Gentle-
"haus, and the intolerant spirit with which it was ushered man. Indeed, he distinctly stated that such was not his
to the meeting. There was another circumstance con- intention.' For his (Mr. Dunctenhe's) own part, the
wcted with that petition, which gave a material advantage Right. Hon. Gentleman was the last person on whom be
to that side in getting signatures, which we did not pos- would cast an imputation of that nature. However much
secs, by the residence in every parish in Kent of a clergy.. he regretted that the Right Hon. Gentleman had been in-
man desirous of promoting the petition, and it is not to be duced to recomuend to Parliament a measure, which he
Wondered at that the Poor freeholder, with his clergyman (Mr. Duncomhe) believed would be most prejudicial to
one hand, and his 'squire on the other, should consent the country, and injurious to the Protestant interest, never_
'4•affix his signature to a petition which contains not a theless lie gave him credit for the utmost purity of motive,
word with respect to Catholic Emancipation. The lion. Mr. PEEL said, that he cordially concurred in every
Baronet had said, that though the petition was drawn up word that had fallen from the lion. Gentleman who had
•hefore his Majesty's speech was delivered to Parliament, spoken last. He admitted the right of any Member to
the petitioners still remained of the same opinion. He had attack the conduct of a Minister of the Crown, but he also
51° doubt that was the ease with many of them ; hut there claimed for himself the right to defend his own character
Isr,4s circumstance which be wished to mention to the when it was assailed. The privilege was reciprocal. Once
.louse, His Majesty's Ministers had been accused of tak- for all, he had now explained the course which he had
tog the Holum by surprise ; if they had done so, they had taken upon this subject. He would now make no more
also failed to exert that interest which they might have reference to his own personal share in the question.__
dent in procuring the object they had in view. In the (Hear, hear.)—He would not be betrayed into the mani-
dockeyard at Chatham, 200 freeholders of Kent, who were festation of warmth, which he admitted was quite incon-
emPloyed there, signed the petition of the "Hon. Baronet, sistent with the deliberate consideration of the measures
which would not probably have been the case had they which were shortly to be submitted to the House. If he
knnwn, the sentiments of his Majesty's Ministers. The bad already displayed any warmth of temper, he bad
petition was, however, signed openly within the gates of unfortunately been betrayed into a departure from the
Pe dock-yard, as if the First Lord of the Admiralty had course which he had prescribed to himself on proposing
been most decidedly opposed to the Catholic claims.— measures of such paramount importance. He would in
(hear, hear..)—He did not mean to deny that the majority future observe the' recommendation of his Majesty, to enter
of the meeting was on the side of the Hon. Baronet, but upon the consideration of those measures with the temper
he could not agree with the Hon. Member that the /neje_ and moderation which would best insure a successful issue
tity was immense. His party bad the advantage of order to the deliberations of Parliament.—(Hear, heate)
'‘"d regularity, while the other was all confusion, scattered Mr. WELLS made some observations which were quite
ni different parts of the heath, and their lines broken by inaudible, after which
Intruders, who had no business there. Of all the cir- The petition was read, and ordered to lie on the table,
eumstantes which occurred during the meeting,. there was and to be printed.
re which he particularly lemented—namely, that a Noble Lord CLIFTON presented a petition from certain free-
d ieud of his should have been induced,. at the close of the holders of Kent, praying that Parliament would adopt
to pass, an eulogiura on an individual, who, he con- measures to unite Ids Majesty's subjects of every descrip-
ed, was the last in the whole multitude who deserved ton in attachment to the Constitution.
n' That individual went there, as he did to other places, DANGEROUS ASSOCIATIONS IN IRELAND SUP-
With a mischievous intent; but what had occurred since, PRESSION BILL.
had fully convinced those in Kent who were inclined to side Mr. PEEL moved the second reading of the above.
with him, of his niiiechievoirs intention, and he (Lord named Bill.
Clifton) thought that he would never show his face there Mr. HOBHOUSE said .he understood from the state-
again. It had been very much the fashion to talk lately ment of the Right Hon. Secretary on a former night, that
Lttfainst Brunswick dhs. He was disposed to adopt ano- none of the provisions of the Bill were intended to be per-
Mier language towards' them. He was very much obliged manent ; but he found, however, •on reading the first pare-
t° the Kent Brunswick Club; and he thought England had graph, that that part of the Bill which enacted the sup.
''°ne more to forward the Catholic Question by forming pressioa of the Catholic Association was intended to be
the Brunswick Chile. It had opened the eyes of the people, permanent. He wished for some information with respect
awl brought them to consider and deliberate on the ques- to this apparent contradiction. If his reading of the Bill
t
He felt that the question was founded on justice were correct, he should feel it necessary to oppose the mea-
-4,d truth, and the more-it was considered, the more was it sure, which however he would be reluctant to do, because
likely to make way. he felt, in common with his Hon. Friends around him, a
Mr. PEEL wished to inform the Hon. Baronet, that most earnest wish not to put the least obstacle in the way
14 the course he should pursue, he should not be influenced of the great measure which Ministers had in contemplation.
a reproaches, in his public duty. He would tell the When he was informed that the late Lord Lieutenant of
aq O. Baronet that he would not condescend to make any Ireland had declared in his place in Parliament, that though
enfligy to him for the nature or for' the time of the advice the Association had been under his nose for six months
b! had given to his Sovereign as -one of his responsible ad- (that was his expression), he saw no danger, be must de-
:„"!, He had contracted no relations with any man, care, that having always protested against any thing like
&nett could prevent him, when he was sent for by his an infringement of the Constitution, which this Bill was on
e''Wereiga, as one of his responsible advisers, giving him all hands allowed to be, he would have strenuously opposed
":1.4 advice as to what course, under all existing circum- the present measure, were it not to be followed by another
'l..antes, it was best for the country:to pursue. He had of such vital importance. lie differed from the general
'Tontracted no relations with any man or any catty which opinion with respect to the character of the Catholic As-
?uld relieve him from his obligations of giving that ad- sociation, and he also differed from the opinion expressed
‘,
ie* to the best of his ability, and no Man should charge by some persons with respect to other popular associations,
,0:1 with dereliction of principle or inconsistency'.—(Hear, by which it had been opposed. The Honourable Member
~)—He.would not condescend to look out for excuses. for Dublin had told the House that very evening that
sne 'could claim to be as independent a member of thti the members of the Brunswick Clubs were arrayed in
!douse as the Hon. Baronet took himself to •be.—(Hear, that spirit of Christian charity. Ue had read de-
hear.),--He had given his advice to the King, his sovereign scriptions of the spirit, and had seen personifications of
and. master, with reference to the existing state •of affairs, , it, but this wrs the first time he had known the spirit of
t 0 the hest of his ability, and he would tell the Hon. Ba- Christian charity presented with a pitch-fork in one hand
ronet that he hail taken the oath of a Privy Councillor, and a bludgeon in the other. Such was the manner in
Which compelled him to give his advice to his Majesty, which the Irish people were at the present moment ar-
. and he hoped that he possessed firmness and strength •of rayed one against the other. • On these grounds, and in the
mind eufficient to enable him, when in the closet of the belief that something must be done, he was inclined to
Ding, to forget his past declaratio" in that House—to overlook the guilt of the present Bill. He believed that
forget his past courses of' conduct ; and he also trusted that some such propitiation as the Bill was necessary- for the
• It. "old be found he had firmness to meet any insinua,- sake of carrying the great measure which was to follow.
,4nna Which might be levelled against him for so doing.-- He trusted, however, that the measure about to be intro-
(Hear, hear.)—The Hon. Baronet had said that he duced would be declared a .Government question ; that the
(Ifre Peel) might have adopted the course which he was Right Hon. Gentleman, and the Noble Duke at the head of
"w pursuing, at a different period, when Mr. Canning the Government, would stake their places, as well as their
ty'''4B at the beed;of the Government, H e would tell the reputations, on its passing. Ile believed that the Noble
""o. Baronet that he had for twenty years opposed the Duke, who had gone so tar, would manfully complete his
tit,ett uncompromising resistance to the claims of the Catho- work as he had begun it, and not be turned aside by open
was with the utmost reluctance that be now con- opposition or private insinuation. The Hon. Member
4ttited to (weak in on the conttitutional settlement made in then proceeded to argue that the popular feeling was not so
'e year 1688 ; but he would also tell theni that he was decidedly opposed to emancipation as was represented ;
tOO
true, mead, he would add, too consistent, a friend of and in support of his argument, alluded to the fact that
thell rrotestient interests and Protestant establishments, to from the metropolis six members were returned who stip-
ush his-resistance to a point at which imminent danger ported that question. Much had been said about Ministers
~
-°nnenced.--:(Hear, hear.)e—So far from being incon- being intimidated, but he thought they had only feared to
tttent4• he•would say that he was the consistent friend of do what they considered wrong. Whilst, however, his
elgts institutions when he submitted to personal itnputa- Majesty's Government obtained the praise which they me-
(114% in order that, he might protect them from injury._ rited, the House should not forget the great men who had
aril the grounds on which he had acted, advocated the ceuse-in times of difficulty, when no sun
"Ith •whichhadact. No shone them; 1 them of
el ay were grounds on he a right to
,vto was worthy of being a Minister who,when his advice The exertions of Gramm, Fox, Windham, and Canning,
a,:°l required upon a measure of great national import- had paved the way for the approaching triumph. If
hd shOuldfettered by the declarations I nisters had not been intimidated by the warning voices of
t'
rue tt.de; lam not enabled to look at the present state those men, they would be unworthy the situations they held.
te,4frairs ; trust consult my friends and party, in order Mr. PEEL said, that a clause at the end of the Bill
my way." He confessed that these considerations limited its operation to two years. None of the powers of
field te
oat a powerful temptation ; hut no man was fit to have I the Bill would continue in operation, with respect to any
teLloe in the closet of his Sovereign who-could not resist association, after one year commencing on the end of the
The Hon. Baronet seemed to be of opinion that I present Session of Parliament. .
sine sort of deception'had been practised by the Govern- A Me,nber, whose name we did. not learn, observed,
Pnt, and that he and his friends had been taken by stir- that he gave bin assent to the Bilabefore the House as one
4- Now, how mild . Government have proclaimed its , vAich he considered essential to the pe'ice of Ireland and
a, intentions? Would the 'Hon. Baronet have had it resort the stability of its government. With respect to the other
e.O-e,the' newspapers? Was it possible that Government measure to be brought forward, lie had great confidence in
tell the world what course it meant to pursue, government ; but at the same time he wouldowatcliwith
hiurtaraent net being • Sitting ? How many lessons , jealousy any security which might be offered for the Amis.
li been read with reference to this very question sion of the Roman Catholics to Parliament.
sfle:n prensature discussion. What had happened at I Mr. W. HORTON said, that he rose briefly to state his
to time of the Union? He bad always con ended that I assent to the motion, from a conviction that the state of
Pledge had been given at that period which could Ireland was such as that it was impossible a worse could
teratuY one; but expectations certainly had been enter- exist. The remedy proposed—he meant that before the
ed Which were disappointed. Why? Because Mr. Pitt House—he thought was a good one. .It was summary,
pelted
ee ied himself, before he was zrfectly certain that he but temporary; and, looking at the objects it had in view,
:44111,1 be able to fulfil his pledge. In 1806 and 1807 it he considered it founded in justice and wisdom, when.
, notorious that the same inconvenience resulted frem coupled with the other measures which were intended. Yet
ea..,_"nntture declarations. He would say, that not only with though he approved this measure, he should not be in-
l-rynt Ito this question, but all others, the Government consistent when lie said, that if brought forward, without