The Sun.
London, England, 1829-02-20 00:00:00

among the Catholi a would still retein its strength. The
present Bill had oie i e tontientlation of no slight im-
portance to his mind, and that was its impartiality. It
was equally directed against Catholics and Orititeemen.
He did not seek to justify associations in general, nor did
he approve of their collecting any rent whatever. He
owned that they were perfectly incompatible with any
principle of good government ; but he must say, that he
thought the Catholics had adopted that course because the
Orangemen had done so before them ; and when the
Noble Duke spoke of the mischief of such societies, lie
should be reminded that there were societies of the same
kind in this country as well as in Ireland. He trusted
that the principle of impartiality lie had noticed in the
Bill would be fully acted upon, and that it w„ulcl be ad-
ministered with strict impartiality. Although at this
moment he agreed with the propriety of putting down the
Association, he could not but think that it had been of
some advantage to Ireland, and that the great measure
which was shortly to be proposed was owing, in no slight
degree, to the embarrassment under which the Government
felt itself with regard to that country. However, from
whatever cause it might have arisen, he was willing to
give this measure, as the forerunner of the other, his most
cordial support.
The Earl of LONGFORD objected to the Orange and
Catholic Associations being compared together. There was
not one thing in which they were alike. When, three or
four years ago, Parliament had declared Associations like
the Catholic Association illegal, the Orange Societies had
separated immediately; but the Catholic Association, in
spite of the law, and in defiance of its provisions, continued
to carry on its operations, and thus to deride and insult the
Legislature. The Catholic Association had arrogated to
itself all the power of a Parliament, and had insolently de-
rided this Parliament and its haws; and yet it was com-
pared to the Orange Societies, which, on the expression of
the opinion of Parliament, had dissolved themselves at
once. Tie first had aliewn a clear determination not to
submit to the law—the latter had at once yielded obedience
to it. Besides the Catholic Association had pretended to
usurp a prerogative which had hitherto been considered as
the peculiar attribute of the Crown, and had affected to
confer honours on their Members. He knew all that was a
mummery, but he contended that it shelved the animus of
the Association. That formed a serious cause for passing this
or almost any other law to remedy such an evil, and to sup-
press an Association arrogating to itself such power. It was,
or at least pretended to be, a sort of Government ; and there
was no precedent for such a-thing, except in the existence of
the Jacobin Club, which, at the time of the French Revo-
lution, exercised the powers of a Government at the same
moment with the Convention, or the Constituent Assembly,
he did not know which—hut with what was then the
ruling power in France. Even there, however, in the con-
fusion which then prevailed, in times the most distem-
pered that could he imagined, the co-existence of the two
was deemed impossible ; and after a struggle the Club was
suppressed. The Courts of Law had lately held, that any
member of those Societies which had lately existed in this
country, for a variety of different purposes, was liable for
any injury the society might commit, or for any contract
they might enter into ; and he thought the same principle
ought to be applied to the Society now the subject of their
Lordships' deliberation ; and that every member of it ought
to be made personally responsible fur any wrong which had
been committed by the body. Their Lordships had litt'e
idea how beneficial such a measure would be, nor what was
the amount of injury done by the Association. The com-
parison between the Catholic and Orange Societies, he re-
peated, was unjust ; not only was there no danger in the
last, but they never had shewn any—even the slightest in-
tention of defying or evading the law. Their whole inten-
tion had been to protect the Government and the people
of the country from being overpowered by that Association,
without the existence of which, this Bill never would have
become necessary. Ile should only add, that he gave the
Bill his most cordial support.
Lord TEYNHAM (we believe) thought the Orange So-
cieties fully as dangerous as the Catholic Association.—
Among them, men had been heard to declare themselves
ready to fight up to their knees in the blood of their fel-
low-subjects. Under these circumstances, he thought it
best for the peace of England, as well as Ireland, that all
such societies should be put down. It was clear that they
had all the same object---Namely, to destroy the power of
the Government, and to erect their own upon its ruin.—
With regard to the Irish Associations, it was clear they
had done many unwarrantable things, and from one party
or the other, the country was every where in a state of
irritation and ferment; but he did think the Orange So-
cieties were the primary cause of the disturbance. When
the privileges—nay, the rights of the Catholics, had been
unjustly withheld for so many years—it was not to be
wondered they should resort to almost any means to obtain
them. Every Noble Lord must be perfectly convinced,
that the union between the two countries would never have
been carried but upon the express understanding, if not
condition, that the Irish Catholics were to be put on an
exact equality of terms with their Protestant brethren.—
Unfortunately that understanding was not carried into
effect, but obstacles were from time to time thrown in their
way; and they owed a debt of gratitude to the Noble Duke
for now removing those obstacles, and for gaining that
great victory, not only over their opponents, but over his
own mind, and over the prejudices of his former opinions
—a victory which, he was sure, they would always con-
sider as establishing, on the part of the Noble Duke, the
strongest chains to their esteem and affection.
The Earl of GUILFORD took this opportunity of de-
claring his firm and unalterable attachment to the Consti-
teflon in Church and State, which had been established
by solemn contract, between those who held the power of
the Government and the people, and which the people felt
it at once their happiness anti their duty to obey. It was
astonishing to see the surprise that was manifested through-
out the kingdom, at the sudden bursting of the intelli-
gence of this measure in favour of the Catholics. The
surprise was greater, as the measure seemed to originate
with the men who had always hitherto declared themselves
the supporters of, the Protestant interest. Those who had
heard those declarations hall placed implicit reliance upon
them, believing the men who uttered them to be the
steady advocates of the Protestant cause. Their confi-
dence has produced such a degree of security in their
minds, that the absence of petitions against the measure
might most easily be accounted for. The secrecy which
the Noble Duke had observed, had rather increased than
diminished that confidence. Now such secrecy was un-
justifiable, if the Noble Duke had for any length of
time entertained the intention of bringing forward any
measure in favour of the Catholics. It was impossi-
ble to conceive, that an a subject of such vital import-
ance, he had not, either shortly after his accession to office,
or at least when he made his last speech last Session upon
it, some measure in his contemplation of the nature of
that which he rinsv proposed to their Lordships. He did
not so much complain of the change of the Noble Duke's
sentiments, but of his conduct in concealing that change,
when the people were relying in confidence on the opinions
he had formally expressed. Nilsen 3linisters, in the pro-
secution of such measures, thought it their duty to pre-
serve such a secrecy concerning his real intentions, they
must make up their minds to lose the confidence of the
people, though its the opinion of some few Noble Lords,
their conduct might be perfectly justifiable. In a free
Government, however, they must expect to lose all the
confidence of the people, and must never afterwards
hope to be able to establish any link of attachment between
themselves and the country over which they were ap-
pointed to preside. Their Lordships might recollect, that
in the course of last Session, he proposed some measure
with respect to securities. He was too great a novice in
State Politics, to foresee that any measure like the present
would be proposed. What use was it fur their Lordships
to pass this Bill to protect the Constitution, if directly af-
terwards they were to pass another to destroy that Consti-
tution ? He knew it was said the Constitution was to be
destroyed with securities ; but he could not reconcile the
two things together. It had been said, that there was
danger in the present state of things ; but he confessed he
did not see it in such a form as to render the measure in
contemplation necessary. He was willing to admit that
the state of Ireland was bad; but that was owing to the
conduct of the Catholic Association. He could not but la-
ment the disorder which reigned in Ireland ; but he did not
believe there was any danger existing any where, but in the
attempt to abrogate the fundamental laws of the realm. As to
any other danger, he was convinced that a patriot King, re-
posing on the bosom of a loyal and faithful people, might
most easily overcome it. There never was a measure
which more decidedly went to abrogate the must essential
parts of the Constitution. The Bill for the suppression
of the Catholic Association was left unexecuted, until those
dreadful and sanguinary societies, the Brunswick Clubs,—
(a laugh)—had associated themselves to obtain that defence
which the law did not afford them. He did not believe
that these clubs had violated even the strictest letter of the
law or of their allegiance. Their Lordships must recol-
lect that allegiance and protection were reciprocal, and he
did not think it fair to direct this Act against the Pro-
testant Societies. He lamented that the sense of the coun-
try was not taken upon the question by a dissolution of
Parliament ; but as that was not to be done, their Lord-
ships must watch over the measure. The safety of the
Church was considered to be most peculiarly entrusted to
their Lordships' care, and, more especially, as-the Bishops
now sat in their House. However that might be, the quel-
ltion was now put on an entirely new ground, and the Con-
stitution was to be subverted by those Who had futulerly
. .