The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-15 00:00:00

PORT NATAL.

Mr. HINDLEY asked if the Government had yet
appointed, or if they intended to appoint, a Governor
ever Port Natal ?
Mr. HOPE was understood to say that a Governor
was about being appointed over Port Natal.

reading, but would feel at liberty to take which course
he thought fit upon the third reading.
Sir 'l'. FREMANTLE said, though he understood the
Hon. Gentleman intended to support the second reading of the
Bill, he was desirous at that early period of offering a few ob-
servations to the House, and he hoped the House would indulge
him for a short time. He could not pass by the speech of the
Hon. Gentleman, for it appeared to him that the Hon. Gen-
tleman acted rather hastily upon his own impressions of wha
the future policy of the Government with respect to Ireland
would be, considering this Bill as the precursor of others which
would follow. In looking narrowly into this question he telt,
after the full and able exposition given of the measure and of
the views of his Right Hon. Friend at the head of the Adminis-
tration, that he had little more to say in recommending the
measure to the House. He wished, however, with reference to his
own position and his own feelings, to state the grounds on which
he entirely concurred in those views. The opposition to the
proposed grant came from two sources, one from those who
opposed it entirely on religious grounds, and.the other from
those who opposed it cm what was called the voluntary prin-
ciple, and those who objected to any grant of public money in
aid of Church matters. In regard to the first, he confessed
that he could nut concur with them in thinking that
this question ought to he viewed as a religious
one. Undoubtedly it had been stated, and stated truly,
that every act of a man's life ought to be subjected to moral
and religious responsibility. But he could not see in what way
religion was violated by voting for a measure of this kind.
The Honourable Gentleman opposite (Mr. Hawes) had stated,
and he ( Sir T. Fremantle) concurred with him, that this vote,
whether it were passed, or whether it were refused, would not
encourage or discourage in the slightest degree the Catholic
religion in Ireland. hey were dealing with a population of
between six and seven millions. Was it to be supposed that
whether they gave a better or a worse education to the priest
of Ireland the extension of the Catholic or the Protestant reli-
gion would be affected one way or the other? He could not
understand hew the religious question had arisen, unless it
were supposed that the effect of this grant would be to in-
duce those who are Protestants now to become Roman
Catholics. He conceived, therefore, that he was perfectly
justified with reference to all religious denominations, in
voting as a matter of charity—as a matter of public expedi.
eney—that this grant should be made. He conceived he
was justified in don g this without reference to any religious
considerations whatever. His Hon. Fu iced, the Member for
the University of Oxford, had brought this quostion home in
a much more intelligible way, as he said that he would not
consent to give anything to per,ons who taught that which
was erroneous in doctrine. Now, the question was, whether
they could act on that principle or whether they could riot?
Now he did not think that his Hon. Friend himself could alto-
gether act upon that principle. Could he act upon that prin-
ciple in the situation of landlord, or guardian, or parent, or in
any other relation in which he might be called upon to stand?
Now his Hon. Friend proposed to leave a large population in
Ireland without the means of religious instruction. The prin-
ciple wh:ch his Hon. Friend advocated had been violated in
numerous instances. The statute-hook contained se-
veral enactments in which that principle had been violated.
In the army estimates there was a distinct vote for the pay-
ment of Roman Catholic chaplains. Every military hospital
was furnished with a Roman Catholic chaplain, if there were a
sufficient number of Roman Catholic soldiers in the regiment
to require his attendance. To that he thought that the Hon.
Gentleman could not object. There was no religious prin-
ciple violated in the measure. There was no principle
of the Protestant Church violated in the vote. With re-
gard to that portion of the question, it had been
before advocated in that House. It had been advo-
cated in thu year 1808 by Mr. Tierney, and in language
so much better than any he (Sir I'. Fremantle) could make
use of, that he could not do better than quote it. In support
of the grant to Maynooth, Mr. Tierney had said that they might
make the Irish Catholics bad subjects—they might make them
bad Catholics—they might make them bad Christians, but they
could not make them Protestants, and that there was no effectual
method of improving the condition of Ireland but by educating
the Catholics. Mr. Grattan, who was also a most high
authority on this subject, had said, in the same debate, that if
they refused this grant they would be securing the ignorance of
a great portion of the Roman Catholic clergy—that to secure
religious conformity was impracticable, and that they would
render the securing of political conformity equally impracticable if
they were to refuse this vote. He concurred in these opinions,
and he believed that the proposition of his Right Hon. Friend
was not only justifiable in prriciple, but that it was absolutely
just.—( Hear, hear.) His Right Hon. Friend, in a former
debate, had gone into the histbry of the system so fully, that it
would be unnecessary for him (Sir Thomas Fremantle) to go
over the same ground. They knew that the College of May-
nooth had been established by an Act of the Legislature, in
1795 ; that by another Act of the Legislature it had been re-
cognised, in 18.0; and that, as late as the year 1808, another Act
of Parliament had not only acknowledged its existence, but had
given it a firmer settlement, and had given the trustees of that
College power to take and to hold larger quantities of land than
they had been enabled to hold before. In addition to this
the grant had been made uninterruptedly,till the present time.
When they considered who had established the College it was
rather too much to say that they should not continue the
grant, and even extend it. All, he believed, were in
favour of the principle of the grant.—( Cries of " Heat.")
Ile believed that it was not denied that the number of Ro-
man Catholics had doubled in Ireland since the Union. In

1795 the Catholic population was estimated at four millions—
it was now seven millions. There was another question—the
question► of contract—upon which he wished to say a every
few words. It was only those who wished to shrink from the
performance of a contract, who would first demand its produc-
tion.—( Hear, hear.) But there were agreements and under-
takings between men and parties which ought to be more bind-
ing than contracts. It should be recollected that the College
of Maynooth was established and endowed by a Parliament
which was entirely Protestant ; and it was established with the
perfect understanding that the grant was to be permanent. It
was also to be remembered that the Roman Catholics, since
the Union, had exercised great influence upon Par-
liamentary questions. They had contributed to the
carrying of the Reform Bill and other measures,
and it could not be doubted that if the Parliament had con-
tinued in Ireland an enlarged grant would have been given be-
fore this to the Irish priesthood. He thought that they ought
not to legislate for Ireland in an Irish sense.—( Hear, hear.) If

the question touched any great subject connected with the 'in-
terests of the empire, they then should look upon it as an im-
perial question, but when it did not affect the interests of this
country, they ought to view it as an Irish question, and they
ought to deal with it as Irish Members. In support of that
argument, he might refer to the contrast between the feeling
in Ireland and that in England on this matter.—( Hear,
Lear.) Though the table was covered with peti-
tions against the grant to Maynooth from England and
Scotland, those from Ireland were very few, though there ex-
isted a strong feeling in Ireland against Catholicism, and a fear
of Catholic ascendancy. He might also allude to the petition
from one Presbyterian body in favour of the grant, which was
presented by his Right Hon. Friend. If, then, there was no
principle to be violated, and if it was but just that the vote
should be made, it was easy to perceive that the policy which
led to it was good. The existing want of everything necessary
to keep up a great establishment had been depicted to the
House over and over again, and had not been denied by any
Member. His Right Honourable Friend was perfectly correct
when he stated that they gave enough to prevent voluntary con-
tributions, but they did not give enough to keep up an institu-
tion. The allowance made was so inadequate that stu-
dents were very frequently obliged to leave the College
before they had completed their academical course. He
thought that it would be well worth the expenditure of a few
pounds to introduce a better feeling in the breasts of those
f amongst the Roman
Catholics who could not leave the College without a feeling of degrada-
tion. He rejoiced that this measure had been introduced by
c existinghe,r s
rom the Opposition. )
her Majesty's Government, because he did think it would be
a great means of removing some of the many grievances of
which the Irish people had to complain, and particularly those
causes of o
discontent
thattryu.s—tly(
e°
us
no justly
It would also, he hoped, have the effect of inspiring the great
majority of the people of that country with confidence in
the existing Government—(Cheers)—for without that con-
fidence it was useless to hope that the existing Government
could he upheld.—( Cheers from the Opposition benches.)
No doubt, it would be very easy, if the exist-
ing Government did not choose to covet this con-
fidence, to send military troops, and enforce courts-martial
in that country, to enforce obedience to the law ; but he would
contend for it that such a mode of attempting to prevent eva-
sions of the laws, would never be successful in enabling the ex-
isting Government to carry on the business of the country.—
( Hear, hear.) Therefore, he must hold that, in order to con-
vince the Irish people that their confidence was sought, some
such measure as this was necessary to be introduced.—(Cheers
from the Opposition.) When once the people of Ireland saw
that the intentions of the Government were conciliatory and
honest, they would give them credit for meaning well towards
them.--( Hear, hear.) But it would be unnecessary for him to
follow this subject out any further. Already they saw many
indications of improvement in Ireland. Railroad projects were
now being extensively carried on in that country ; and he did
hope they would prove to be but the forerunners of others still
more extensive and beneficial. if topics of a' political character
were not kept up as a means of preventing that union of inte-
rest as well as of affection which should ever exist between the
two countries.
Mr. FOX MAULE said, that he was perfectly aware that
be could scarcely command the attention of the House at that
hour, when more distinguished individuals were expected to
address it, but he felt that it would be necessary for him to
detain them for a very short time while he explained the rea-
sons why he intended to vote against the second reading of this
Bill. He thought that the Right Hon. Baronet had notmade
ont a case for the allowance of this grant, nor had he (Mr.
F. Maule) heard from that (the Ministerial) side of the House
one argument to disprove the saying of his Hon. Friend near
him, that this measure had an ulterior object. The Right Hon.
Baronet had said that his Hon. Friend had no right to make
that supposition. He (Mr. F. Maule) would grant that the
Right Hon. Gentleman was right in contradicting the line of
*alignment advanced by his Hon. Friend, provided he had proved
to the House that those anticipations were not well grounded. But
he had not chosen to give his own friends or the House the
smallest hint to guide them in this case.—( Hear, hear.)
He (Mr. F. Maule) grounded his opposition to this Bill on
the assumption that this was no final measure—(Cheers)—but
that there would be an ulterior course adopted which he
could not and would not approve. He thought that no one
could doubt, unless indeed the Right Hon. Baronet himself
would, that there was a strong feeling in the public mind on
this subject, and that the petitions which had been presented
to this Neuss did not emanate from any system of centralisa-
tion, but from the general feeling. That one which the Right
Hon. Baronet had himself the other day presented was an ex-
ception to the rule, but it would have been the height of in-
gratitude if that petition had not been presented at that time.
NVhy, those parties had a Bill of their own before
that House last year, and the Roman Catholics
of Ireland had presented numerous petitions in their favour.
It would then have been the height of ingratitude if the Dis-
senters of Scotland had not come forward to support the
R.iman Catholics upon this question. He hoped that the
House would acquit him of all wish to discuss this question in.
a spirit of hostility to the Roman Catholic people of Ireland.
—( Hear, hear.) He would not enter into any religious dis-
pute whatever. He thought he had a right to discuss this as
a political measure of the Government ; but in doing so it
was impossible to avoid some reference to the effect of the
measure upon the religious feelings of this country.—
([Tear, hear.) He maintained that the grant to Mayneoth
was not a matter of contract. Look to the origin of the vote
and you would find it originated in 1795 ; and he could not help
thinking from all that he saw in the paltry grant of t4,000/.,that
it was nothing more than a subscription on the past of the
Government, at the time when they had granted to the people of
Ireland the great boon of being allowed to establish an institu-
tion for the education of their own clergy. It was a boon to
the people, to allow them to erect places where they could
themselves educate their priesthood. . That was a boon worth
the Irish people's receiving. But as that paltry grant was
given then, and continued since, it was only meant as a bene-
volence of the Government, to assist the private benevolence
of individuals. He was not prepared to discontinue the grant,
and in voting for its continuance as it now was, he held that to
be an entirely different question from that at present before the
House. —(Hear, hear.) The question was not now whether
they would continue the old grant, but whether they would
convert it into a fixed and permanent endowment.—( Hear.)
If the increase of the grant was even to be by an annual vote,
he should not consider the question the same as the mere con-
tinuance of the old one. But that was a question not now before
the House. He rested his position on this, that it was proposed
to make an establishment for the education of the Catholic clergy
of Ireland, bona fide in connexion with the State.....(Hear.)

TILE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY MORNING, APRIL 15 1845.