The Sun.
London, England, 1842-03-09 00:00:00

No. 1.5,447.

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MANCHESTER and LEEDS RAIL-.
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IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

. ---ma.--
e
HOUSE
,OF,LOI?DS, March S.
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Wool-
sack at ten m•nutes past Fiv o'Clock.
PRESBYTERIAN MARRIAGES. •
• Lord ST RA FI4'OR D presented a petition from Tyrone,
Cavan, and Monaghan; praying for an alienation of thy
law relative to Presbyterian Marriages in Ireland.
;01-I,N-L.-11VS.
.The Earl of ALBEMARLE presented a petition from
Norwich against the Coin-laws. -
The Earl of CLARENDON presented a petition from
Musselborough, praying- for 4 repeal of the Corn-laws.
CHURCH EDUCATION.
The Bishop of EXETER. presented a petition from
the Diocese of Down and Connor in favour of the Irish
Church-Education society. "--
- C !TA RITABLW PROPERTY.
Lord CAMPAELL presented a petition from the
Trustees of the Tiverton Charities, complaining of' the
expenses of the conveyance of charitable property, and
. ' . praying for an.alterotion in the law on that subject.
DISSENTERS'
MARRIAGES.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said, that he had given
notice the other day of his intention to move for the
• appointment Of a Committee to take into' consideration
the law in Ireland, with regard to the Marriages of
Dissenters, with a view !le 'remedy any defects,
if it should be feund expedient to do so. He thought
it would be nitre convenient and important that no
delay should take plaee in the appointment of the Corn-
inittee, and he would, therefore,-propose immediately the
appointment of such Committee.
Lord 111!( )ITGIIAM entirely agreed with the opinion
expressed by - his Noble and Learned Friend as
to the necessity of moving immediately the
appointment of • the Committee.—(Bear.) Perhaps
the best course would be for his Noble - and
Learned Friem: to move now that the Bill, which stands
for a second reading, be referred to that Committee.
Lord SHAF TESBURY—He must name the Com-
mittee firsts
. The Marquis of LANSDOWNE, in the absence
of - his Noble Friend Lord
.Gosford, presented
a number of petitions fir an amendment of the
law of _ marriage in Ireland, from Armagh, Mount-
morris, Cahir, and various other places in the counties of
Donegal, Armagh, and Tyrone.
THE LAW RELATING TO LUNATICS.
• The LORD CHANCELLOR said he had mentioned
last evening that it -was his intention to lay on the table
a Bill for amending and improving the law id the case
of lunatics ; and he thought it necessary, in the first
place, to state that it was the general scope and object
of the measure which he proposed. In all cases of this
kind it was necessary to consider the actual state of the
law, and the evils resulting from it.- With respect to the
actual state of the law relating to lunatics, their Lordships
were aware that there were certain standing Commission-
ers, to whom commissions were addressed. Those gentle=
men
.were well qualified to discharge the duties
entrusted to them.—(Cheers ) But their jurisdiction
was confined to limits within twenty miles of London ;
and-beyond those bounds commissions were addresed to
gentlemen of whom the Lord Chancellor knew nothing,
and who were frequently inexperienced in such delicate
and difficult inquiriee, so that very great and unxeces-
sary expenses were entailed upon the estates of lu-
natics.. The mode of defraying the expenses of the
upon the •
m estates.
issioners of Bank
,Crisimisiluviasssitteerms
oscsi-at,sinbywifieieels,
tehheacrgoentll
rupts were paid before the alterations made by the Bill
of his Noble and Learned Friend ~.- but it was•a Maale
!liable. in every way to 'very gredif objections, fok the
charges fell rery heavily on the estate of the lunatic, p ar-
tieularly when the estate was small, and frequent appli-
cations being•made to the Court of Chancery for security
to the person and property of this unhappy class. Now
that lie ha„le not . be supposed to state inacene
rately the inconveniences of the present system, lie
would mention two or three . instances. of" the
charges that had fallen on the estates of lunatics throueli
the mode of paying Commissioners by fees. In the case
of Lord Portsmouth, which certainly wris a peculiar one,
on which six Com.nissioners sat, the fees to the Com-
missioners alone amounted to 1,0711. In the case of
Davis, the fees to the Commissioners amounted to
3-16/ 'los. The next was the case of Taylor, whose
estate was a s.natl one, and the fees to the Commis-
sioners 1-,eing 3461. 10s., nearly consumed the estate
of the lunatic. In Mr. Guiviry's case, which occurred
the other day, . the fees. were ±lOl. In- a late
case in the country, on *hick one Commissioner
only sat . for four days, the :gees ' came to 731. These
charges were- very heavy, and they had the effect, in
many instance:, where time estate of the lunatic was
small, of making those connected with the lunatic afraid
to Chancery for 11. eoiiiinii;sion,
fur1;1)1
epyl y
knewthat
thlevel(l2,fu7t (
tfie. expense of the Commission
'would eat up the whole of ,the estate ; and, therefore,
these persons were left without adequate protection
as to person and property. Bat these were not all the
objections he had to
make to the present system.
'Those public Commissioners to whom lie had referred
were inadequately informed of their duties, and it often
happened, therefore, when a Commission Was returned
that it was quashed for irregularity, and another Com-
mission had to be issued, the same expense to fall on the
estate again. Ilie Noble and Learned Friend near him
would remember the ease of Mr. Holmes. _ The inqui-
sition in this ease was _returned by country Commis-
sioners, it was quashed for - want of form, it Went
down a second time under a new
Commission, second inquiry took place,
and the expense of the pco-
ceedings of the time of the
second' information not in-
cludingthe expenses of the Masters) came to 5,0001. Their
Lordships would feel some remedy. as necessary to put an
end to those evils. The remedy lie (the Lord Chancellor)
proposed, was to do away with the whole of the present
system, and appoint instead two gentlemen of experience
to execute all commissions in town and country,
not to be paid by fees, but by a fixed salary.
The result of this would be, that they would have their
commissions well executed by experienced and c mpe-
tent men, and without throwing unnecessary charges on
the estates of the unhappy persons who were the subjects
of inquiry. But tins was only a small part of the subject.
In all commissions of lunacy it was the custom to summon
twenty-four jurymen, because it was considered neces-
sary, according to the existing• law, that twelve jury-
men should concur in the vcrlict. These proceedings
were, in thie respect, analogous to the proceeding of
Grand Juries. Now what was the consequence of this?
Why the consequence was, that additional charges of a
heavy nature were made and thrown on the estates of the
unhappy persons. Generally speaking, twenty-two
Jurymen attended, and they were paid a guinea each
per day out of the estate, and if, as was freluently the
case, they remained four or five days, the expenses were
enormous. Now, he had already stated the change he
intended to make, so far as related to the office o.' Com-
missioner. He would state to their Lordships
in a similar manner the change -intended to be
made so far as related to Jurors. In the case of
the Earl of Portsmouth, the expenses of the Jury alone
were 4101. 11s. In the case of Taylor, to which lie had
already referred, the expenses of the Jury amounted to
173/, and that was a small estate. In the case of haven-
port, the expenses of the Jury amounted to 315/ In.
the case of Lady Kirkwall, the expenses Were 193/.
These expenses were added to the others in the shape li/fees
to Commissioners; they would see what enorinoas char es I
were thrown on the estates of the subjects of these in-
quiries. lre was well aware that this was a delicate sub-
ject, but when lie told their Lordships that a great many
of these cases met with no opposition, he was
sure —their Lordships would think that a discre-
tionary power ought to be vested in the person
holding the Great Seal to sammon a stingier number
of jurymen for the purpose of deciding a question'
Ile Ought not to be required to surnmcn twenty-four
juryinen, nor MIS it necessary that a unanimous vote of
twelve should decide as to whether the person was of
his judgment, un-
sound mind or not. He proposed, therefore, to. place. a
discretionary power
Great • Seal in certain , cas, s in which affidavits
bleb
oemh tosnludi
ini
siiiiegiol telt:teals:lde:
to lessen
Now, Otero. were
...,tleer e il
numberintroduced c(e,
of jurymen
, ittoi
r3rieouni regulate eou
icititzlieltsertia
rnEiovettort(6):lle:
the
Bar. H e
directed his attention in mining the Bill which
he wished to lay upon their Lordships' table.
He had stated that it
_was his intention .to
pn pOSO • . -
had found .on inquiry that a year and a half
had been allowed to elapse after the reference before a
Committee was appointed to take care of' the estate of
the lunatic. What- he proposed, to remedy this evil, was,
trusted to the
that the case should he en • . _ Lord Chancellor,
me' 4 of ltelal.ernit'itgPl3°ainudtin
for the time
' being, who sh?aild have the Conduct.
their Lordships'
edtilstti
There was another point in this Bill to which
attempted ('ee.
to abolish this
attention.
called
*The Noble Lord
Theherbeeggent.-las to
andireocffitcer . the Clerk of
Custom (as we understood), and to whom heavy
-fees were paid. One part of
,the Bill was for the
purposel.eaih
1 mofhaadbol
office, but he was prevented from doing so, as it was
considered unfair to take anyoffice of
a pa-son, that office
being held by patent. His (the Lord 'Chancellor's) Bill
was to abolish this office at
ithe death of the present
holder, or when he should thins proper to resie. Heavy
fees were attached to this ofticc'e and. its abohtacn would
tend greatly to lessen the charges in these inquiries.
There was another point to which lie, begged leave tcecall
the attention of the House. His Noble Friend` (Lord
pistreils-Uigoustlati-s
Brougham) when- he held the Great Seal, - an
i pointed vi-
sitors of lunacy.; that appointment was of great be-
nefit. -- Those appointments consisted- of two medi-
cal men and barristers'; it was their duty to visit
all persons found lunatic.; their duty Was performed most
satisfacterilv, and their returns were very fen and coin_
plete. Whitt he proposed was this, that those gentlemen
who were to be Commissioners of LunaCy should be added
to the visitors—that they should, in fact, be ex officio
visitors, and though they- were - not bound to go round
with the visitors they were to exercise a 'superintendence of
great importance. That was the outline of_ his measure,,when
it was printed and considered by their Lordships, he trusted
they wculd find his proposition an amendment, and it would be
cheerfully acceded to by their Lordships.

convicted of felony was not allowed to give evidence. This
exclusion was considered a punishment of his crime, whereas, as
his Noble and Learned Friend remarked, the punishment fell
on the individual who wanted the evidence ? Again, an indi-
vidual who steals, within an amount of petty larceny, may give
evidence; whereas, he who steals to the amount of grand lar-
ceny, is incompetent : so that it depended on the fact whether
or not he stole to the amount of 12d. or 14d.; could any thing
he more absurd? so, a man who ran over a child by
mischance, and having killed it, was committed of
manslaughter, was incompetent to give evidence until
he had gone through his punishment, when he was
competent as a witness. In the case of Lord Warwick,
a man who had committed manslaughter was offered
as a witness, but objected to because he had not been
hurt ed in the hand—whereal if he had bean burned in the.
hand he would have been competent.—(Laughter.) Bu; this
principle was not carried out, for an accomplice was a com-
petent wilness, though the jury were cautioned against relying
on him unless his testimony were supported by material facts.
Again, there was another anomaly as regarded interest. A
man having a direct interest to the amouut of Is. in a case
was incompetent to give evidence ; but suppose a person were
the heir apparent to a rich old man, an only child, having of
course a probability, almost equal to a certainty, to succeed
him, the former would be a competent witness in a case which
his father had an interest in, to the amount of 20,0001. or
100,000/. Next, if there were a dozen subscribers to a policy
of insurance, if an action were brought to recover, each of
these would be a competent witness, though each would have
a direct and positive interest in the result. In cases when.
suits came on in the shape of motions, parties interested were
competent witnesses, but when actions came on in a court of
common law they were not. For these reasons he would
supp ,Tt the Bill of his Noble and Learned Friend. Whether
he (the Lord Chancellor) would agree to the admission of
perjurers and other parties he would not now say, but those
points they could consider when they had an opportunity of
consulting the Judges on their return to Westminster-hall.
Lord BROUGHAAI entirely agreed with his Noble and Learned Friend, and he hoped the second reading would be
agreed to. Even the heir apparent, alluded to, would still be a
competent witness, if his father were bed-ridden and lunatic,
and had made his will,—in this case he would be a competent
witness in a cause in which his father was concerned to the
amount of 40,000/. a year ; but the son having a direct interest
to the amount of Is. would be incompetent. The measure
now proposed he (Lord Brougham) proposed, in a great de-
gree, in the other House 14 years ago ; he then failed, but
now he had almost an immediate prospect of success, and also
he was encouraged to hope for much greater changes. Even
now, the parties to a suit were allowed to give evidence when
they did it by affidavit. He hoped, therefore, the restrictions
as regarded the interest would be done away with, as well as
those that regarded the infamy.
Lord WYNFORD was understood to express his approba-
tion of the Bill. He hoped the clauses excluding the plaintills
an.l defendants from giving evidence would be struck out.
He referred to the clause affecting the Baptist congregations,
believing that no congregation of that sect would object to it.
i
• They saw every day n their courts of justice that persons re-
fused to make oath, but he had also seen in several instances
that these conscientious persons were receivers of stolen goods,
and the reluctance to swear arose, not from any scruple, but
from a desire not to convict an old friend, who, if left to go oh
iu his iniquity, might Drove a source of profit to them. He
thought in such cases the minister of such a congregation might
be admitted to say that such an objection existed. lie per-
fectly agreed to the bill being read a second time, but he
thought it would be advisable to allow parties to the suit to be
examined as witnesses. In some cases justice would fail if
this were not allowed, and he was anxious that some words
should be introduced to provide for cases of that sort.

Lord BROUGIAM concurred entirely with his Noble and
Learned Friend that some such measure as the one proposed
by him was absolutely required. When the measure came to
be discussed in Commi.tee, or on the second reading, then
would be the time to enter into the subject more at large. His
Noble Friend had referred to the appointment of visitors made
bY him when he held the Great Seal. It was but justice to his
Noble and Learned Friend th tt he should say that he
made those appointments entirely at his suggestion, and
under the authority of an Act of Parliament. Ile agreed
wi.ll his Noble Friend as to the manner in which
those officers had perfirmed their duty. With respect to the
abolition of the office to whi.:ll his Honourable Friend referred,
that abolition took place in fact in 1832. With respect to the
jurisdiction to be given to the new Commissioners, and the
other officers, the propriety of that could best be discussed when
the details of the measure were gone into.
Lord COTTENH AM said, that there were some parts of the
measure of his Noble Friend in which he coincided, and others
which he greatly regretted. With respect to the duties at pre-
sent discharged by the Masters he would refrain from saying
more at present, than that SI duty could be more im-
portant, or more delicate, than the management of the
estates of lunatics. It often happened that there were
parties concerned who only wished to get as much as they
could out of the estate of the lunatic; and he should be very
apprehensive that, in future the management under the new ad-
ministration would not be so efficient for the protection of the
esta es as under the Masters. Another-part of the proposi-
tion was to pay the persons who were to till the offices out of
the suitors' fund. Against that he entirely and unqualifiedly
protested. Ha (lid not know that the fee fund could bear
much more burthena, but he could not understand, in any
case, on what principle the funds of one class fits causes w, re to
defray the expenses of another.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said he understood his Noble
Friend to disapprove of taking these matters from the
superintendence of the Masters. But the proposition was
not to take lunatics out of the protection of
the Great Seal. The procceclinv of 'the Commissioners
would be still subject to the revision of the Chancellor. As to
the fond:, he did not think it at all unreasonable that the fees
paid into a Court should be applied to pay the officers of that
Court. But his Noble and Learned Fiend supposed errone-
ously that it was intended to take the salaries of visitors out of
th general suitors' fund of the. Court. That was not the case.
The fund he (the Lord
.Chaneellor) meant was the fee fund in
lunacy alone.

Lot:d BROUGHAM did not see any objection to such an
appropriation of the fee fund. He, thought one CoMmissioner
would be enough.
The LORD CHANCELLOR would propose that in general
one Commissioner only should preside—( Hear, hear)—but
that in cases of great importance the Lord Chancellor might
direct both to sit.

Lord CAMPBELL—Suppose the Court is divided in
opinion.

The LORD CH I NCELLOIt had a clause authorising the
addition of a third Commissioner. The Lord Chancellor had
the power to appoint additional Commissioners under the pre-
sent system, as in Lord Portsmouth's case, when six Commis-
sioners sat, and Mr. Hulke, soon after appointed a Judge;
presided.
It ord CAMPBELL, seeing no difference between such
trials and thwe that took place before the Lord Chief Justice
of England, could not perceive why one Commissioner would
not do as well as two.

The LORD CHANCELLOR would consider all objections
and suggestions when they came to Committee.
LAW OF MARRIAGES IN IRELAND.

. Tho LORD CHANCELLOR moved the Committee to con,
qfiestion. Amongst the names were the Lord Chan.
eillor; the Archbishop of Canterbury, the Lord Privy Seal,
the Duke of Wellington, the Marquis of Lansdowne, the Earl
of Devon, the Bishops of London, Carlisle, and Exeter, Lords
Minto, Melbourne, Brougham, and Cottenham. He (the
Lord Chancellor) hved they would name as early a day as
possible for the sitting of the Committee, as the law of mar-
riages in Ireland was in a most obscure and unsatisfactory state,
and there should he no longer doubts respecting the obligations
and nature of such an important and solemn contract. Per-
haps their Lordships would agree to Thursday.—( Hear.)
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said he would mot's:
some amendments to the retrospective Bill that would come
before them.

Lord CAMPBELL said he entirely approved of the Bill a

Lord CAAIPIIELL hoped that retrospectively as well as
prospectively their Lordships would succeed in placing the law
of marriage on a basis satisfactory to all parties.

LOAN SOCIETIES BILL.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE moved the second reading of th►s
;ti

Some conversation ensued, in which Lords Brougham,
Radnor, Monteagle, and other Peers took part, recognising
the benefit Loan Societies.had done the poor, but hoping that
a clause would be inserted to prevent the meetings from being
held at public-houses.
Lord BROUGHAM hoped his Noble Friend would apply
himself to the subject to which he had referred.
The Earl of DEVON said he would give his best attention
to the subject, and endeavour to introduce some measure ap-
plicable to the point adverted to.
After a few observations from the Marquis of LANSDOWNE
and Lord CAMPBELL,
Lord WHA RNCLIFFE said that all he asked for no-w was,
that the present measure should be c&.ntinued for a year.
The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be
committed on Thursday.
PARISII APPRENTICES.
On the motion of Lord WHARNCLIFFE the Parish Ap-
prentices Regulation Bill was read a second time, and ordered
to be committed.