The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-24 00:00:00

that were actually un•mployed. They were really funds of '
a sinecure character, for when the parties died who at present
possessed them, Government would be in possession of
means to give a proper education to the Irish people. And
how was that proposition met? Why they did not want it to
be adopted. They would not c ,nsent to disturb the Church
Establishment in Ireland, because they said it would not he
permitted by the people of Eneland ; and the Government,
with a true Protestant feeling, would not allow the House to
touch it. He was prepared to say the proposition of the Hon.
Member for Sheffield would not in the slightest degree injure
the Protestant Church in Ireland; and in using the term Pro-
testant Church he used it simply in the sense of a congregation,
and that was the simple explanation given to it by the sup-
porters of the Right Hon. Baronet. Now what was the
argument used against the proposition of his Hon. Friend the
Member for Sheffield ? The Right Honourable Baronet
adverted to a celebrated article of David Hume. and appeared
to think that it was favourable to his own side.
Experience, however, proved that an augmented clergy of a
particular church did not increase the number of the congrega-
tion ; for instance, they had a large number of Protestant
priests in Ireland, but the majority of the people belonged
to a Catholic congregation. It was evident, therefore, that
increasing the number of the clergy was not supporting the
Protestant Church. Nine-tenths of the Protestant clergy in
Ireland stood almost alone amidst a Catholic congregation.—
(Cries of " No, no," from the Ministerial side of the
House.) Hon. Gentlemen on the other side said " No," but
was there any man in that House who had had personal expe-
rience in the matter, who would stand up and deny
what he had said was right ?—( Hear, hear.) Was
there any man who could get up and say that in
Ireland seven-eights of the whole congregation were not of the
Catholic persuasion? He was convinced no one could deny it,
far in parish after parish every congregation was Catholic. It
would be much better for the Government to say whether de-
creasing the number of the clergy would not have a better
effect in improving the Protestant Church. They had an op-
portunity of doing so now, for his llon. Friend the Member
for Sheffield proposed that, as a minister died off, his place
should not be supplied. The present minister only received
his revenue during life, and at his death there was no neces-
sity for appointing another. Now the means which would
thus accrue to the Government could be easily applied to the
carrying out what the Government seemed to desire,
the education of the Catholic people, and this would only be.
This, then, was the argument, that they could no longer main-
tain in Ire'and by force that which they had too long main-
tained by that means in that country. lie believed the word
used was " Protestant domination," and that that was the
thing which it was apprehended could no longer be upheld by
force in Ireland. The Government, seeing that such was the
state of affairs, they yielded; but, as upon every other occasion,
they yielded when it it was too late.—( Hear, hear.) That ha
been always their policy and their penalty, they tried to do
good when it was too late to do it with auy effect.—( Hear,
hear.) They had not the courage to do right—they were in
dread to do it ; but it was a feeling of dread that made them do
it in the end.—( Hear, hear.) That was not the way to do
justice to Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) He had never been hostile
to the present Government ; but he would say it was hopeless
to expect they would do justice if they waited to do it upon
pt inciples of terror—( Hear, hear)—and when they were terri-
fied a little more they would go on doing what they ought to
have done long ago. He had heard so much about this ques-
tion of the Church property, that he would like to ask a ques-
tion in regard to it, namely, Who made this property ?
Was it not the Roman Catholics, for Roman Catholic pur-
p.ises?—(Cheers)—but property which had been directed by
Protestant power to Protestant purposes.—(Cheers.) But
now that the Protestant interest had died out, it was only fair
to apply it to the very useful purpose of teaching the Irish
people.—( Hear, hear.) He would wish to know why they
should not be FO applied ? He had not heard any reason why
they should not, as an earnest of their intention to do justice
to Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) And now what was the real diffe-
rence between the Right Hon. Baront's proposition and the
appropriation clause? It was simply what was called the Pro-
testant principle. Hon. Members opposite said that this was a
proposition which, if it originated with Protestant Ireland,
might be consistent, but it should not have originated with
Protestant England. But the attack having been commenced
in England, the assailants hid themselves behind their excesses
in Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) Now, either this was a question
as to a great question, or it was not. It was one which asserted
that England was about to make a proposition for the education
of the people of Ireland, and the means were to be had without
injury to any one ; and, therefore, he called upon them to agree
to the grant, if they wished to pacify Ireland.
Sir R. PEEL said he would be very unwilling that the
, House should separate until he had protested against the gross
mis-statements and misrepresentations he had heard of what
had fallen from him upon the discussion of this question the
other night. Upon that occasion he did abstain from all party
recrimination. He said he brought forward this measure on
the part of her Majesty's Government, conscious that it would
, be well received in Ireland. He stated the feelings of grati-
tude with which it had been hailed in that country.—( Hear. )

He did then, and would now deprecate with anxiety the
chance of a failure of this measure.—(Hear, hear.) He
knew well that the success of the measure did depend
upon Hon. Gentlemen opposite, and that with them rested
the question whether the measure should succeed or not.--
( Hear, hear.) He said then, and he would say now, that he
meant to do ample justice, as far as it was in his power, to
the motives of those Hon. Members who had voted against
the measure, as well as those who had voted for it. He stated
further, upon that occasion, that he knew well that many of
those who had given their support to the Government had
done so at the risk of displeasing their constituents. He also
stated that many others who had voted in favour of the mea-
sure had done so at the risk of losing their seats for ever. He
did not arrogate to himself or to those who sat with him on that
side of the House, the origin of this measure. On the contrary,

he stated that it would liave been much better if it had come
from those who had been well known to be uniform friends of
the Roman► Catholics.—( Hear, hear.) He was perfectly

willing to take upon himself all the consequences of the dis,
pleasure that he might have incurred, this he stated on Frida
night, and he added upon that occasion ' Visit the Minister
you will, but let not your displeasure fall upon the measure
itself."—( Hear, hear.) It would be base indeed, if they were
tb attempt to throw the onus of the support they had
received upon the opposite side of the House, for the indig-
nation it had created should be visited on that side alone.
-He was surprised at the mode in which the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman commented upon this subject. The measure re-
ceived his support on the second reading. He was perfeetly
aware of the nature of the measure. He ( Sir R. Peel) ex-
plained fully that it was his intention to provide the funds out
of the public revenue, and he had never given him reason to
suppose that he would consent to the diminution of the funds
of the Established Church. He had never sanctioned the
opinion that they would, during any stage of the measure, con-
sent to the appropriation of the revenues of the Established
Church —( Hear, hear.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman
was perfectly aware of the principle of the proposition of her
Majesty's Government. He ( Sir R. Peel) gave the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman full credit for the motives by which
he was actuated, for he was aware of the strong
feeling which prevailed in the city which the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman represented on this subject, and the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman was ready, as others were ready, to
incur the risk of supporting the second reading. The Hon.
and Learned Gentleman said that he stated that the measure
was brought forward in consequence of the agitation of Mr.
O'Connell. He ( Sir R. Peel) stated directly the reverse.
He stated that during the prevalence of that agitation they
combated it by the law, that they succeeded in Ireland at
least in their appeal to the law, that the consequence was a
suspension of the agitation, at least, so far as the immense
meetings tending to disturb the public peace were concerned.
After this determination to vindicate the law, and after those
meetings were suspended, they considered whether some other
measures might not be adopted which would be likely to afford
a more permanent remedy to Ireland than the application of
physical force.—()Lear, hear.) They, therefore, proposed a
measure making better provision fur charitable endowments.
That measure with the exception of same opposition from a few
Roman Catholics, received the general assent of the House.
Were they then taunted with having yielded to intimidation—
were they not then told that the course they were taking was a
wise course? It was not said that there was anything undigni-
fied or dangerous in that course. They were supported by some
ecclesiastical dignitaries of the Roman Catholic Church who
were opposed to the repeal agitation. Mr. O'Connell never
asked for the endowment of Maynooth_Conciliation Hall never
asked for it. But a great number of the Roman Catholic
clergy and laity, who, seeing the spirit in which the Govern-
ment were inclined to act, and that the Executive were inclined
to act in a friendly spirit, asked for this measure ; and it was
more in deference to their opinion, than to any threats or inti-
midations that they brought it forward.—( Hear, hear.) Nor
did they bring it forward in consequence of their relations with
the United States ; for it might be recollected that he had
given notice soon after the suspension of agitation, voluntarily
and without necessity—without any person calling upon
him to do so, that he was ready to run the
risk of exciting Protestant feelings in this country, and dis-
tinctly declaring that during the present session he would
bring forward the subject of academical education ; and that
he would, at the same time, bring the subject of Maynooth un-
der the consideration of the House. Did he not add, at the
same time, that they would act, not in an adverse but in a
friendly spirit ? And did not any person who heard him know
that it was his intention to improve that institution ? He
therefore brought forward the measure. He had abstained
from noticing the attack of the Right Hon. Gentleman oppo-
site; and be seemed to be disappointed that he (Sir Robert
Peel) had passed it over. He would tell the Right Hon.
Gentleman the reasons why he did so. He knew that
the success of the measure depended upon the
votes of Hon. Gentlemen in that House; and it was not far
him to alienate that support by party attacks. He thought it
much more consistent with his duty, to act in that way, being
ready to take the consequences of the success or of the failure
of this measure. Feeling deeply satisfied after proposing this
measure, that the public interests required that it should be
passed, was it not more becoming his position that he
should concentrate every effort to the passing of the
measure rather than provoke party attacks or promote party
recriminations ?—( Cheers. ) Powerful as were the talents of
the Right Hon. Gentleman, great as were his abilities, yet he
could assure him it was not from any fear of a conflict with him
that induced him to forbear.—(Cheers.) It was that sense of
and
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what course he should take, to do that which would best promote
the success of the measure; but the Right Hon. Gentleman
compelled him to notice his attack. The Right Hon. Gentle-
man asked, was it not humiliating that he should promote this
measure? He felt no humiliation—(Cheers)—he felt 110
humiliation in discharging a public duty—but he should feel
humiliated if, believing this measure to be of importance to the
welfare of Ireland, he shrunk from proposing it, because they
might charge him with inconsistency.—(Cheers.) But if he
believed it to be a measure calculated to do good in Ireland—
calculated to engender kinder feelings between the two coun-
tries—so far from feeling any humiliation in proposing it, he
owned to
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He supported the grant to Maynooth when
out of office. In 1840 he voted with the Right
Honourable Gentleman, and spoke in favour of it when he
was silent.—( Hear, hear.) He objected to the withdrawing
of the vote. Where was then the inconsistency in supporting
it now ?—( Hear, hear.) They wished to improve the build-
ing, extend the accomrao lation, elevate the education, give a
decent allowance to the teachers of youth—where, then, he
repeated, was the inconsistency of now supporting a measure
for the eontinuamte of whichhe hal uniformly voted? The
Right Hon. Gentleman said that those whn voted for
9,0001. could not refuse to vete for the 26,0001., and
besides that .it was absurd in those who
would
vote for a salary to professors to vote only for a sum which
would keep them in a starving condition. It was the Right
Hon. Gentleman himself who said so, and yet he accused the
Government of inconsistency in proposing a grant which would
give increased comfort to those residing at Maynooth, merely
because, instead of being small and annual, the grant would be
increased and permanent.—(Bear, hear.) He did not then
reply to those observations of the Right Hon. Gentleman, but
addressed himself to those of the Noble Lord the Member for
the City of London, who took a for different view, and who in
a generous spirit came forward to support the Government in
accordance with a virtual engagement that the Opposition
for the
of the House would support any measure brought forward