The Sun.
London, England, 1829-02-21 00:00:00

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number of troops employed inaur colonies, and very justly.
He would say that if the pubic wished to be relieved from
the taxation which oppresses it, it must force the Go-
vernment to act differently wards the colonies.—(Here
the Hon. Member made a fullpause, in consequence of the
basy hum of voices -engaged in conversation within the
House.)—He was sorry to disturb the conversation in
which so many Gentlemen wire so pleasantly engaged, but
the question to which he ws venturing to call their at-
tention was of the very griatest importance, for in his
opinion it involved the ccintimance of the assessed taxes.
(Hear, and a laugh.) Yes, he maintained, that if we were
relieved from the 3,000,000/ 'which we now paid to support
the Colonial Governments, we night get rid of g,000,000/.
of odious taxes, whirls pressed hard upon the middling
classes of society. Nln should we have 5,000 men in
the Canadas?
Sir H. HARDINGE intimated that we hail not 3,000

OMIF

major, one captain, one assistant-surgeon, five profes-
sors, and some minor reductions ; but the whole
diminution would not appear in the present estimates,
for some of the salaries were to be paid up to March. •
There was also the retirement of a Lieutenant-Governor,
who had held the appointment 27 years, and was always
active in the discharge of his duties. lie was succeeded by
another officer, who unly received his military pay (with
the addition of a guinea per day) for the extra duty of his
new station. In the charge of " army pay of general
officers," which this year amounted to 136,0001., there
had been a reduction of 10,000/. In that of full pay for
retired officers, now amounting to 109,000/., there was a
reduction of 3,000/. Thus, on every item nearly, there
was some reduction. A considerable one was effected by re-
ductions of the medical staff, and a great part by the ex-
tinction of junior members of the half-pay. The House
would recollect, that in 1825, 800 officers had been allow-

. .
ed to sell on half-pay, and it was objected at the time that I inert there.
that measure would add to the encumbrance of the pension ►
Mr. HUME said that the amount of our force in North
fund, by throwing so many junior lives upon it ; but if it 1 America was 5,000 men, and the Canadas were in North
would add aornettlat to the weight in that respect, it should America. The rest of our possessions in that quarter were
be recollected that there were, in the case of the younger islands, and, except front tlie seals and whales, he knew not
lives, fewer wives ur widows likely to become a burden to what invaders they had to fear. There must be some
the country. It should also be considered, that those other reasons than those which had yet been mentioned for
who sold out were obliged to sell at the lowest price, keeping up so large a force In our Colonies. He thought
while those who purchased were compelled to pay the that the real teatime was to be found in the internal state of
highest. By this means a stun of 80,000/. had been saved our Colonies, in which the Governors were generally
to Government. Instead of vesting that sum in the general found at variance with the people. Ile contended that the
fund, he had recommended that it should be applied to statement of the Gallant Officer opposite did not lead him
the extinction of 70 lieutenancies and 70 ensigncies— to anticipate a reduction worthy of the House, and such as
thus purchasing, as it were, for that sum, annuities to the the country had a right to expect. As Government ought
amount of 9,000/. a year. The advantage of this mode rather to be strengthened titan weakened in the pre-
of applying the money above that of investing the mo- sent emergency, lie would not oppose the present vote ; but
new must be obvious=. Besides the benefit thus derived of he could not refrain from protesting against it as larger
cancelling 140 commissions, they got rid of the obloquy of than the wants of the country either sanctioned or required.
having so many persons in the army who had not done He would avail himself of the present opportunity to do
duty. The next item of charge was the pensions, and an act of justice to the Gallant Officer who now filled the
this was one of the most important of all. The total situation of Secretary for the Colonies. When that Gal-
amount of pensions this year was 1,39-4,9031., front which lant Officer was first appointed, he took an opportunity of
sum were large deductions to be made—for casualties in deprecating his appointment. His reason for so doing was
the present year—poundage on out-pensioners, and balance this—he was anxious to see the Colonies governed by the
in hands, thus leaving to be provided for this year principles of civil policy, and not ruled by the iron rod of
1,278,403/. In the page of the estimates in which this military government. He was happy to say, that since the
charge was made, he had inserted a memorandum explain- Gallant Officer haul been Colonial Secretary, the system of
ing that 4,103 men had been carried front the pension lis,, governing the Colonies had been greatly improved. He
to the militia account, to which they more properly be- anticipated what had not taken place.—(Hear,and a laugh.)
longed ; but the diminution thus occasioned would be a He had reason to believe that the orders which he (Sir G.
real not a mysterious one. It would be seen from last Murray) had transmitted both to Canada and the Cape of
year's list, that the number of pensioners had increased, and Good Hope, were much wiser and much better than those
that the casualties were not so nultierone. He thought, in of his predecessor, from whom he had expected much better
looking at the whole system, that it required revision. He things.—(Hear.)
did not mean that in any revision any thing should be done Mr. ROBINSON said, that the Hon. Member fir Aber-
to break faith with the soldier, or to destroy the engage- deen was not satisfied in his opening speech with having
meats made in 1806 ; but, on the other hand, though lie attacked the Colonies, but he had also followed up his at-
would not break faith with them, he thought we ought tack in his second speech, notwithstanding the explain-
to do that which the commissioners had no discretion to tions he had received upon the subject. He says that the
do—namely, to apportion the reward according to the country has to pay 3,000,000/, of direct taxes, annually
merit of the individual. In looking over the arrangements fag :ire support of the Colonies ; but in making this state-
made on the subject of pensions in 180E5, he thought they ment, he keeps out of view the great, though indirect as-
ware founded wholly on erroneous principles. The Finance sistance, received front the colonial resources in their con-
Committee of 1817, in adverting to this subject, stated their sumption of British manufactures, and support of the re-
opinion that the charge of pensions hail then reached their dundant population which so frequently emigrate from
greatest height. At that time there were 64,000 pen- hence. To take up the subject upon narrow grounds was
sinners on the lint—at present there wereB2,ooo—making to create an uncandid and unfair view of it.
a difference in the charge of 384,000/. a year. The Sir GEORGE MURRAY concurred entirely in the
plan which he sitould propose would give to the soldier a opinion of the Hon. Member who had spoken last, that the
reward and a retiring pension in prop.. two to his period colonial system was inseparably connected with some of the
of service. At the present time the price of a soldier's best interests of the country, with its trade and manufac-
discharge was 30/. fur cavalry, and 20i. for infantry.— tures, and that any plan of economy at all founded on their
What he intended to propose was this—that in case of a relinquishment would materially deteriorate the greatness
service of seven years, the price paid fur a discharge should of England. Besides this abandonment of the Colonies, Ire
be the same as at present, and that fir a service extending knew there were other projects which had been surged for
a few years beyinud that period, the price should be within the reduction of the military expenditure. It had been
41. or 51. the saute. At the end of fifteen years the sol. said in the Finance Committee, that the force in the West
dier should be entitled to a free discharge; at the mid of Indies might be reduced to a police force for mere defence,
sixteen years he should be entitled to a free discharge not Now to this Ire would reply, that the rendering them a po-
bearing a pensien, and to a gratuity amounting '2- half a lice force, in addition to the other military duties, would
year's pay; at the end of seventeen years he should be en- be anything rather than economy, front the wear and tear
titled to a free discharge and to a gratuity amounting to a to which the men would be nece-earily exposed. 'lints
year's ;rev; at the end of eighteen years lie should be enti- were given of the employment of a police like that in 're-
tied to a free discharge, and a gratuity of two years' pay. land, but be thought such a system not likely to be opera-
By this plan he would be enabled at the end of a given tive in the Colonies. There was another suggestion,—he
time to obtain his discharge, with a gratuity whenever Ire alluded to that of garrisoning these possessions with colo-
thought proper to demand it ; and if lie were stationed in nial troops, provided on the spot ; against such a course
a country where land was to he settled, he should be end- he must totally protest, as detrimental and unfavour•
tled moreover to a grant of land, and to all the advantages able to the interests they were bound to preserve. It
reserved for military settlers. Now it was clear that if was said that there ought not to be any increase of force,
4,000 men could be induced to get their discharge by this with reference to the safety of the Canadian frontier. Now
plan, it would be greatly for the advantage of the service; he willingly supposed that the United States had not any
hostile intentions towards Canada, but be still thought,
for you would substitute for men who had been 12 or 15
years in the army, and who were 35 years of age and up- considering the great and rising power which America pre-
wards, 4,000 recruits inn the prime of life, who had no rented, it would be highly unwise to diminish the force up-
claim whatever on the pension list. He contended, that held in the neighbouring frontier. Some allusion had been
by anticipating the discharge of the soldier in this manlier made to the discussions which had taken place between the
your would gain two advantages, you would give to the men local authorities in Canada and their principals. He readily
what they would consider an indulgence, and you would admitted that at such discussions differences had occurred,
relieve the pension list of an amount of pensions which in but was equally sure these had arisen not front the faults of
tine course of ten years would amount to 200,000/. annually. individuals so much as from the working of an injudicious
system, which had been long in operation. The quarrel
He proposed, that in all these cases the option should
be given to the collier, li ible, however, to the regula- with the late Governor had arisen from hickerings of old
tion of the commander of the corps in which he served ; date, and was at length thrust by circumstances into pub-
and he further paopused for the protection of the soldier lie notice. He hoped, however, that time, aided by a bet-
from any moment:try disgust or caprice, which might in- ter system, would work a remedy for these evils, and he
duce him to wish for his discharge, that no soldier believed also it would have been impolitic to have coneed-
should receive his discharge without giving a week's edeall that had been called for by some of the inhabitants.
previous notice. sty this plan he anticipated that a large He offered these few observations merely its explanation of
diminution would soon be effected in the amount of the what had fallen from some Hon. Gentlemen opposite.
Pension List,---that the recruiting for the army would be Lord PALMERSTON, in allusion to what had fallen
greatly facilitated, and that desertions would be checked : from the Hon. Member for Aberdeen, respecting the cal-
and he further imagined, that independently of the titan_ culation discussed in the Finance Committee, wished to be
permitted to explain the principles on which these calcula-
cial relief which it would afford, it was calculated to pro-
duce a great improve vent in the character of tire army. dons had been made. These had been made, and were in-
lie did not think it necessary to enter farther into the de- deed explained es such in the Finance Committee, as found-
tails of this arrengenuent at present; only he moot say,'
ed upon the supposition that the regular force abroad must
that connected with this system of free discharges, a rya- lie fully relieved once in 10 years. To effect this, it would
teni of conditional pensions must be adopted, and that flue be necessary to bend out in the proportion of I-I Oth Of the
slight injuries small gratuities must he paid. By the ar- whole force each year ; and provision most be made at
rangerneot which was made in 1800, it was provided, that home for keeping the reinforcements up to that scale. This
a soldier, for the loss of a finger pr toe, should be pensioned wee the principle of his calculation, and upon it he had
for life ; and when the pension was once granted, the Corn- acted in the Finance Committee. Besides the basis of this
missioners had no further coutroul over it. Now it ap- calculation, they must always bear in mind, that ngland
peered to him, that by giving a soldier wino had received has great relations in other countries, large general interests
such an injury his discharge at once, or the option of which she is bound to maintain independent of her imineiti-
zervieg in a veteran battalion, great relief would be oh- ate colonial forces, and the necessity of keeping up the reliefs
tained to the eel-vice, The next item in the estimates to for diem at borne. She ought surely to have a disposable
which he wished to call the attention of the Committee, force ever ready at home for snossible emergencies, liike that
was the charge for Military Asylum, which tbis yea', for instance which occurred two years ago, when it be-
amounted to 94,155/. 13s. Bd. There was a diminution ('sine necessary to send, at a moment's notice. 5,000 risen
of 3,700/. in this item as compared with the estimate of to Portugal. It must be always politic and prudent, that
last Yeart and tine propesitioli which he should have to
mune nations,
s
d,iitootpidretisel;,•;ealt4e ri
stiletodssawfiel ernte: place In the scale ref
the nature he had
subniit to their consideration waa to limit the
tier of children to one thousend instead of 1,300, described, to watch events. She must, in fact, have such
tire. pelage Which were supported there at present. a power to withstand contingent alterations in the transac-
The charge fur I;,,idows! nensiena this year was 143,111 e , tione of other countries.
and in this item there Was an tocee4e or 8281, gee,. the Mr. MA 13ERLY explained, that as he cotnprehended
charge of last year. The charge of allowances on the corn- the returns which were issued from Whitehall, the differ-
passionatelist, and of pensions to wounded officers, amounted epee amounted to 14,000 men between the present di,spo-
to 1ai5e,,0i14,1..
In this item there had been a diminution of sable force and that of 1822. Hit cattle' not understand
6,400/. for the elinwaarces to i.:;e allildeea of deceased ofli- how a saving was to be effected by the reduction upoq the
cers. He might here mention diet the ituinigenee to diem Past India staliiinsfirtlent, elthoegh Le ;lid itot. sea Why the
front his 'Majesty's royal bounty was limitetito'4o,ool4 Indian company should he exempt foie the vi eight caused
and that he anticipated in another year a further diminution by the invaliding in their servieen The plan of the Hon.
:if leoool. on this head of expenditure. In the superannu- and Gallant Officer which had obtained his (Mr. Ma-
ation allowanee's theft Wat; this ;Tar ruf increase of 863/., berlys) entire approval, was his arremogioeie; fi,:e. the gra-
but the Committee'Most he aware that, it witc quite itopira- 4"ai realuctioF, 4 the f;e9Poil vOliliAltlenti w tictr of all
Ode for the Government to Mate any reductions in the tit* he liad pe6iott,lY seen, incluJing of course his own,
wassiirtifi4n.itellitßheppirNefrEabrleeioen2et.c4
..tlc...'
lio 0
01e
olitary
public offices without increasing, for a time at least, the
tbroiqii the telso,,e of the
,esdittatea of thp al fiervicea fur
ainpm-4. of supe;.annuated allowances. Ile had now gope
the year, and he had shown diat the dei;r`eate was uetiel6l 4
lance, ai in?. -ta'l iilrii,r4 tte'iPtTo.ed it io his cipening speech,
nil 0194 that It was so much larger than the estimate of
on every estimate except two,--he alluded to the grant for 11822, which they all knew had been taken in its then re-
widows' pensions and to the superannuated list. The Right duced form, as an experiment, one that had since been
Hon. Gentleman then made a generid recapitulation of his
inplitl,iidetxe.toausoilo:vertoiifeethoef;niaet4Obe'lioepcgeei,n:lot!
tei.,,e.eceie,dgi found to have entirely failed, and to have brought :Vti.'2?:4-
tatt-ilept:.7, aotFeo9,clededi amid general cheering., by nine_ aive consplaiets of ite ;:-.ezieerey freiti the colonies, in the
duty. He
Of the men, and defects in the performance
He still insisted that there was a contingent
ployed in the territorial poisevikz.,; of tie Ent India Coto- saying by the redaction Qf thf TY:1,29 Inert in India, With
iriinkengt9lell4l?_ C):7talriciPtgl
puny, he voted fir the service of the ensuing year.' tespeot i:o the number of troops required for the colonies,
colonel 11. DAVIES, notwithstanding the clear and what he had stated was this—of 103 battalions of the line,
able t.iteinetii.. Gre the Gallant Officer opposite, viewed 54 were available for the colonies, and 20 for the East
these estimates with any Nog but get:alert:en. , are ho Indio, leaving about 25 for home service, when it was
heard with great alarm the statement, 'that it was Tinpos- considered that there mist be always an ayerage of four
eijile te enect any greater reduction of our military este-
hetteliens on their passage. He then proceeded tp jueiify
blishtnentsi, as the fore.e 0.?,..,e• voted has wanted, not for our the
amount of force to be kept up according to these esti-
home service, hut for our colonial garrisons. He wa. of :n4t:!s, both upon the necessity of the regular garrisons
opinion that the whole garrisons of the colonies should be r and contingent""lifs.
kept up by colonial corps. Ile hoped that the Finance Mr. MAIWIILY repeated that he was still unable to
ii.:rte‘ would be re appointed, and that some indivi- comprehend the exact state of the accounts, from the offi-
duals would thin yiiiq p itir;;:gd ;;pol it who xyere con- ,:dal pap,(:-. which Ile had in his hand, from it lie op!y
necteti with the services of the army, navy, and ordnance, I i.oii6ae4 that the forte now eeteeded try 14,00'0 men the
into which it was ordered to inquire. number estimated in 1822, and he was rut a loss to appre-
Sir 11. RAttNELL objected to the large amount of bend where the comparative saving could be explained.
force which we now kept up in tire colonies, and wished Sir HENRY HARDINGE replied, that in point of
ae iie ;:-,fv;ne4 oglesthee it was riot intended to 'educe it. • fact tire increase now was only 9,299 more men than in
Mr. fl OIL nGtwithiland4 'iiia aneet vith VilliC.l iB2, because 'Coe other 5,,90t) tier, wetet net boroe span
the Hon- Memter for Callington hail said' that he Would theie estimates, nut were, as Ire had explained, transferred
not deal in proposals for reducing 20,000 or 25,000 men to another branch of the account.
was prepared to show that in 1822, 1823, 1824, and j Mr. lIUME was still unable to comprehend this part
1825 the whole military force of the country did not ex- . of the Hon. and Gallant Officer's statement, judging fruits
reel OP,Ofefs mesa. in those yeas Wp had pot ;pore than the present fprin of the acconnt,i. With reference to the
20,000 men employed in the navy' and 5,00 p in the ar- nimarge of tine Hon. Member for `Worcester (Mr. Robinson)
tillery ; and now we had 39,000 infantry, and more than he had never talked of getting rid of the colonies. All he
30,000 men employed in the navy. Ile had never heard had urged was the propriety of improving their internal
any complaint made against the manner in which the arrangements with a view to an economy of their expert-
public service had been -erfonned in those years ; and, ditnl're
therefore fie thonglit'that;•asth.e country was now in such. Mr. ALEXANDER BARING expressed himself disse-
nt profound state of peace, we might safely venture to re. tisfied at the impeiteet information which had been oh-
duce the number of „,„ for the year from 89,000 ta taincd upon parts of tire military expenditure in the Fi-
-69,000. His Gallant Friend below had objected to the nance Committee. Ile perfectly asreed in the necessity of