The Sun.
London, England, 1845-05-03 00:00:00

AIAYNOOTH.

Sir R. PEEL presented petitions from Rochdale, and places
in Bedfordshire, in favour of the grant to Maynooth.
Mr. H LIME presented two petitions from Arbroath against
th, grant to Maynooth. The petitioners regarded all State
assistance to religious denominations as unjust, unnecessary,
and impolitic, and on that ground they prayed the House not
to pass this measure.
Mr. Ewart, Mr. Lawson, and Mr. Smollet presented peti-
tions against the Bill.
Petitions against the grant were presented by Lord Claude
Hamilton, by Mr. D'lsraeli, by Mr. Ilastie, Captain Pechell,
Mr. S. Crawford, Mr. C. Bruce, Colonel Fox, Lord Ebring-
ton, Mr. Forbes, Sir C. Lemon, and Mr. Denison (Surrey).
On the motion that the Speaker do leave the Chair,

Mr. HINDLEY said thai in rising to object to the Speaker
leaving the chair, he was only discharging a painful duty, and
one which he undertook individually, without concert with any
other Member of that House. He felt great regret that the
Government thought it consistent with their duty to go r n
with the present measure. What was it doing in England ?
It was throwing the whole country into convulsions. It would
raise the fires of religion, which would not easily be destroyed.
—(Laughter.) It would make the next election a polemical
arena, where the religion of every man would be taken into
consideration. The Right Hon. Baronet must be aware that
this measure had excited such dissatisfaction that at least
1,200 individuals had been induced to come up from th t coun-

•
try, and spend several days in the metropolis, to protest
against the measure. As the Right Hon. Gentleman the
Member for Nevraik said, the country was against the measure.
Let not the House imagine that they were wiser than all Eng-
land—( Laughter)—or that, hecauie they happened to have
secured their seats in Parliament, they were to act in contra-
diction to the feelings of the people of the whole country. He
would repeat it, that nothing could be more opposed to the
feelings—or the prejudices, if they would—of the Protestants of
England than this measure. He would ask, if this measure had
created so much ill-feeling and confusion in England, did it at
the same time effect any good in Ireland?—( Laughter.) He
had heard it said that a great deal should be done to conciliate
Ireland. He would admit it, and he would be ready to sacrifice
everything but principle to do so. But can it be believed that
this measure would have that effect ? He denied that it would,
and in order to prove his assertion, let him read a letter which
had recently appeared in the public prints, from the
pen of the Right Reverend Dr. Higgins, a Roman Ca-
tholic Bishop in Ireland.—(Loud cries of " Ols, oh,"
order and laughter, amidst which the Hon. Member attempted
to pe:severe, but he would not be permitted. He then pro-
ceeded to read extracts from the letter as if he were continuing
his speech.) He then went on to say that he did believe that
the last week had created a feeling in favour of the repeal of the
union in England, and he felt convinced that the Dissenters
would rather consent to that measure than that Ireland should
be made prosperous at the expense of England. He would not
trespass further upon the time of the House ; but if any Hon.
Member would second his proposition, that the Speaker do nut
leave the Chair for the purpose of going on with this Bill in
Committee—( Great laughter)—he would divide the House
upon it.—(Hear, hear. )
Colonel SIBTHORP said if he could conceive tbat there
would be the least chance of the Hon. Member opposite suc-
ceeding in his motion he would second it, but he did not think
his doing so would have the least effect.—( Laughter.) He
had been accustomed to judge of men by their ac•ions, and
therefore he should say that the Right Hon. Baronet at the
head of her Majesty's Government had not shown himself a
practical Protestant in this instance, for he did not, as
he was bound to eo as a Minister of the Crown,
use his best efforts to uphold the Christian religion.
If the measure was so important, why should he delay its third
reading until the 19th of May? He would have entertained a
better opinion of the Right Hon. Baronet, if he had gone on
with it without the slightest delay. How would the Right Hon.
Baronet stand with the elections, if he were to dissolve Parlia-
ment?—( Hear, hear.) On one of the most important ques-
tions the Right lion. Baronet was forced to have recourse
to the support of men who were only seeking
to undermine him.—(Laughter.) He did not blame them for
it, but he did not like truckling.—( Renewed laughter.) Those
were days when people thought but of themselves, but the
Right lion. Gentleman would go anywhere for a friend.—
( Continued laughter.) But why did ho not ask the country
how they liked his policy? He came into power on very
different professions. He was then for Church and State, and
for the agricultural interest. But how would the Right Hon.
Baronet be now received in Mark-lane?—(Great laughter.)
The first quality in a Minister was consistency. The Right
Hon. Gentleman professed himself their protector, supporter,
and friend, but he took them in and deceived them. This was
only the first of a series of measures which ho had in contempla-
tion. He should say, with deep regret, that he had no con-
fidence in any party ; he did not know where to look for any-
thing on which he could ground any hopes fur the safety and
honour of the country.—( Laughter.) lie hoped he had in-
dependent feeling enough to vote against any men who showed
such inconsistency. He should feel very wrongly upon any
question that would affect the maintenance of the Protestant
Church. They had given their defiance to the opinions and
e
feelings of the people of this country, and if the Minister of the
Crown should forget the duties he owed to one with whom tic
was connected in council and advice, then the sooner that
Minister was removed from that situation which he so badly
filled the better. The Right lion. Gentleman would find him
on that, as on all other occasions upon this question, opposed
to him.
Mr. PLUMPTRE said, that if the Government were dis-
posed to force this measure through the House they had it in
their power to do so. Out of all the measures which had come
under the notice of Parliament, since he had the honour of a
seat in that House, he should say that there had been no mea-
sure, viewed in all itstbearings and probable consequences if it
should
pass into a law, that he had viewed with so much re-
pugnance.
The movement which had been made by the Go-
vernment was a most unhappy one. It was unhappy, because
if they were now to withdraw this measure, it would cause
much agitation in Ireland. But that state of things would
not be so unhappy, as would he called into existence by the
passing of this Bill. lie had always viewed the matter in that
light, and whenever he had opposed this grant it was on this
ground that he did so, and it was on the same ground that he
opposed it still. Those were the grounds on which the people
of this country opposed the measure. They dis'inguished be •
tween truth and error, and in that light they viewed it. They
protested against error, and they were arranged on the side of
truth, and they said in their inward conscience that they could
not consent to allow the public money to be used in the dis-

semination of error. That was not a temporary excitement, it
was a deep-seated feeling, likely to last for some considerable
time. He would venture to say that that feeling would not be
extinct at the period of the next election ; and his own opinion
ita3, that if the Hou-e forced through this measure now, and
made it law, it would be swept out of the statute-book before
the new Parliament had long commenced its labour.—(" Hear,
hear," and ironical cheering.) What was the language of the
Irish hierarchy? They thought the brim a contemptible one,
and he would quote the language of Mr. O'Connell to show
the estimation in which he held it. (The Hon. Gentleman
then read the letter of Mr. O'Connell, dated the 18th of
April, accepting the invitation to a public dinner at Cork. )
It was evident f om that letter that the lion. and Learned
Member for Cork was d, termined on seeking for repeal, and
would make use of every concession that that House might
make to further his objects. He regretted being obliged to op-
pose the Right Hen. Gentleman below him, but he felt it a
duty to do so. He opposed the measure before, he opposed it
that night, and he would oppose it to the end. He felt it a duty
which he owed to the Protestants of that country, most solemnly
and earnestly to protest against the measure.—(" Hear, bear,"
and cries of " Divide, divide.")
The SPEAKER asked the Hon. Member for Ashton-under-
Lyne what were the terms of his motion ?
Mr. HINDL EY—I move that you, Sir, do leave the chair
this day sic months.—(Shouts of laughter. )
Colonel SIBTHORP seconded the motion.
Colonel VERNER rose, amidst loud cries of "Divide,
divide." He said he regretted that the Right Hon. Gentle-
man had not taken time to collect the opinion of the Protestants
of this country before he pr-posed the present measure. He
hoped the Right Hon. Baronet would give the country an op-
portunity of expressing their real sentiments upon this measure.
Mr. RE DDIN GTON said that, as the Gallant Colonel had
chosen to speak for the Protestants of Ireland, he (Mr. Red-
dington), although a Roman Catholic, must protest against his
declaration as expr. ssing the opinion of the people of Ireland.
In the district in which he resided, there we-re several Con-
servatives who were in favour of and petitioned for the mea-
sure—( Hear, hear)—and the wish of these gentlemen was that
further remedial measures might l e introduced.
Sir R. PEEL said that whateVer the opinions of individual
Members might be, he did not think it was the wish of any
party to divide on this occasion.—(Cries of " Hear,
hear.") The general understanding was that they would go
into Committee en the Bill to-night and report progress. He
hoped that the lion. Member for Kent would not think
he was guilty of any disrespect in declining to accede to his
proposition.—( Hear.) He felt bound to say that, with great
respect to the Hon. Member, he was firmly determined to
persevere with his Bill.—( Hear. ) Ile had postponed the de-
bate on the Bill until Friday, because the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman the Member for Oxford, and other Hon. Members,
thought that the measure could not be properly discussed
if it had not been postponed to that day. The Protestants of
Ireland were, ha believed, in favour of the measure, and he
was justified in saying that it would engender kindly
feelings.— ( Hear, hear.) He did not say that the
whole Protestant body were in favour of the measure.
He held in his hand a declaration signed by the Protestant and
Roman Catholic inhabitants of the county of Galway—that
declaration stated that the undersigned had heard with great
satisfaction of the proposition of her Majesty's Government,
for increasing the annual grant voted by Parliament to the
Royal Coiegc of Maynooth, and that they felt the measure
was calculated to improve the social condition of the Reman
Catholic clergy in Ireland, and therefore to improve the social
condition of the country. This declaration was signed by
thirty-four magistrates, Protestant and Roman Catholic, by
several of the clergy, beaded by the Roman Catholic Bishop--
it was signed by Mr. Daly, and by several Protestant pro-
prietors—in fact, by the principal Protestant proprietors of the
county. In fact, among the proprietors, who were chiefly Pro-
testants, there existed, he would not say an universal, but
certainly a very general sentiment of approval of the measure
which had been proposed by her Majesty's Government. He
was perfectly justified in saying that in Ireland there was
much less opposition manifested on the part of the Church and
the Presbyterians of that country than in England. He
would not set the example of entering into a discussion of
the principles of the Bill, but he would still retain the opinion
which he had already expressed.
Lord J. RUSSELL asked if it was the intention of his
Hon. Friend, and those who acted with him, to take a division
on every part of the Bill in Committee ; and, if so, he would
be glad if he stated what parts of the Bill they were?
Sir R. INGLIS said that he was not aware of any intention
on the part of any Members to take the sense of the House on
any other clauses than those to which amendments were con-
templated by his Hon. Friend (Mr. O'Brien) and the Hon.
Member for Hull (Mr. Hanmer). He felt that having been
indulged by the House for a considerable length of time, tat
former occasions, on the principles of the Bill, it would not be
right for him to take up their attention a third time.
Sir A. BR' )OKE said that though he should be sorry to
intrude himself on the House, yet he wished to say that, in the
north of England, there was no distinction between the Roman
Catholicsand Protestants. They enjoyed one advantage which
other parts of Ireland could not boast of, for they were not
cursed with that agitation which the south of Ireland had been
convulsed with ; and as long as they continued so, the same
kind feeling would exist between the Roman Catholics and Pro

testants in.the north of England. It was his anxious wish that
a sound and liberal education should be extended to all classes,
but as the constitution of this country was founded on Protes-
tant principles, he did not sec how the Government could con-
sistently with those principles maintain an establishment at
Maynooth for the purl ose of propagating the Roman Catholic
religion. The education there must have a tendency to narrow
and contract the mind, and to cultivate the most intolerant
notions of the infallibility of the Roman Catholic doctrines.
Upon these grounds he opposed the measure.
The House then divided :
For going into Committee l6O
For Mr. Hindley's amendment 52
Majority for going into Committee
The House then went into Committee on the Bill.

On the proposal of the first clause,
Sir R. INGLIS submitted as an amendment to the first
clause, which created the perpetual incorporation of the trustees
of the College of Maynooth, that the power vested in the
trustees might be placed in the hands of that body which had
been created by the Act of last session, namely, the Charitable
Bequests Act. He would leave it to her Majesty's Govern-
ment to consider whether they would accede to that amend-
ment, but he would not give the House the trouble of
dividing on it.
Sir It. PEEL said that he should inform his Right Hon.
Friend that he could not acquiesce with his proposition, for he
(Sir R. Inglis) did not propose that the endowment should be
less, but merely proposed that those employed to regulate t::at
endowment should be the parsons who were lately employed
under the Charitable Bequests Act. The reason he differed
from his Right Hon Friend was, because he apprehended that
the duties of the trustees of the Charitable Bequests Bill, and
those under the Maynooth Bill were not such as would war-
rant their identification. His great and principal objection to
the adoption of this course was, that the adoption of such a
measure would be an unworthy and underhand implication of
suspicion.--( Hear, hear.) He found, upon reference to cer-
tain documents, that the trustees of the College of Maynooth,
appointed by the Irish Parliament, had been confirmed by the
Imperial Legislature.—( Hear, hear.) Nay, more, he found
that the Irish Lord Chancellor, and the Master of the Rolls,
who, under the Irish Act, held the offices of Directors of the
College, were removed by the English Parliament, and placed
in the position of Visitors merely, and the board of superin-
tendenct made exclusively Catholic, On those grounds, then,
he should say, that he could not be induced to assent to this
amendment.

The question was then put on the amendment, and nega•
tived without a division.
Two other clauses were then agreed to without opposition.
Upon reading the next clause, that in reference to the mort-
main laws,
Sir JOHN HANMER rose to move the omission of the
words which limit the trustees of Maynooth College in taking
any real property with which it may be desired voluntarily to
endow them. The reason he moved this amendment was

because he was unwilling to see the Government burthening
itself with those troublesome obsolete ecclesiastical laws.—

(Hear, hear.) He could see no reason why the Roman
Ca-
tholics should be deterred from pursuing their own system of
education, by those shadows of old feudal laws, known by the
name of the laws of mortmain. The Hon. Baronet then re-
ferred to the statutes of mortmain, passed in the reigns of
Richard 11., Henry VIII, Charles 1., and George 11., and
contended that none of the provisions of those statutes ap-
plied to Ireland, and said he could not concur in the pro-
visions of the clause retaining those of mortmain. He had
promised that he would not detain the House by entering on
the general policy of the Bill; but he thought this was such
an important question that it warranted his calling the at-
tention of tlse House to it.

Mr. T. 13. C. SMITH said, that the Honourable
Member for Hull had somewhat misrepresented the sta-
tute as it at present stood, for by the Ist and 2d of Geo. 111.
the Government were empowered to dispense with the law of
mortmain. He admitted the fact as stated by his Honourable
Friend ( Sir J. Hanmer) that a man might sell a whole town-
ship and bequeath the money to the College of Maynoo!h. It
might be so, but the Hon. Member must be aware that
property in land and sums in money were very different things.
The cases did not afford a parallel. If a particular circum-
startle required the setting aside of that writ, all that was re-
quired of the Roman Catholic College, was to make out a case
to the Government, which would exercise its discretion as to
whether they would be allowed to exceed the limitations fixed
by statute. By such means they might be allowed to obtain
and to hold an unlimited amount of property. On these
grounds, and seeing no necessity for the amendment of the
Honourable Member, he should feel it his duty to oppose it.
Mr. HINDLEY hoped that the Hoe. Member would not

divide the House upon it.
Lord J. MANNERS could have wished that the Right
Hon. Gent;emln the Attorney-General for Ireland had given
some reason for limiting the amount of landed property to the
College of ►taynooth to 3,0001. He could not see the prin-
ciple on which this restriction was based, neither could h- un-
derstand why there should be a fixed standard at all. He
thought that as Oxford and Cambridge were unfettered by this
law, Maynooth should be just as liberally dealt with. He
would give his willing support to the amendment of his Hon.

.. . -
Friend:
Mr. ROEBUCK, in a few words, which were almost in-
audible, opposed the amendment.
v a nStiarg Re
o. flit 13. e I CS hGui; cihS o fwlarse Ireland do opinion
shouldo notthat
b thee in interfered
a
feiarteidw italt
no desire to exclude his Catholic fellow-subjects from t o
coed
In this opinion he was opposed by his Hon. Friend, whohse hadd.
The universities of England were surely en ti
vantages.
He did net hold maintaining the Church in the ..
to the preference, they being the nurseries ofllraomteestsaenntsiesma;
Inglis)anhdeld
meantthat
maintaining the United Church of England .
the Right Hon. Baronet, for he (Sir
R.
ila.nd Ire]
He should oppose the amendment.
mintaining it in all its endowments, and in all its privileges.
•
Sir IL PEEL hoped that he would be allowed to trouble the
House with one or two words on this subject. An Hon. Mem-
ber had asked him whether he should prefer that the College of
Maynooth should be gifted with land or money. As a mere
matter of policy he (Sir R. Peel) should considerably prefer
the latter. He thought that as there must be some limit
3,00C1. a year was a fair one. He did not propose 3,000/.
because of any jealousy to Maynooth, but he thought it right
to see how that sum should be managed, and if that sum were
well-managed, the Crown could extend the power of holding
more. lie thought that the question relating to the statute e;
nnortmain would be more conveniently dealt with at a future
period.
Mr.
REDINGTON said he would oppose.the motion of the
Hon. Member for Hull, not because he was not of opinion'
that Roman Catholics should be left unfettered to leave landed
property to Maynooth, if they thought fit, but because those
who were most intereived in the present grant did not wish
that question to he introduced incidentally.
Lord POLLINGTON said he voted against the measure,
but he would vote for the motion of the Hon. Member for,
Hull, on the ground of leaving the Roman Catholics at perfect
liberty to endow a College for themselves.
After a few' words from Sir R. INGLIS,
Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD said that he would vote
for the Hon. Member for hull, on the ground that there
should be no obstacle to endowments upon the voluntary
principle.
Sir J. HANNIER replied. He could not well see the reason
of the Right Hon. Baronet ia%jecting to his proposal, afzcr hav-
ing voted for and carried the Charitable Bequests Act last year.
No great evils had befallen the State by reason of the endow-
.. .

nients of Cambridge and Oxford, whieb had risen to their pre-
sent greatness in consequence of voluntary endowments. Any
Terson who travelled through the countries bordering on the
Mediterranean, or in the peninsula, must aware that the

, lands in the hands of the monasteries were much better culti-
vated than the lands which were held by lay persons.
Lord CLIVE would support the motion of the Hon. Mem-
ber for Hull. He thought that as the College of Maynooth
could held land indirectly, by means of the intervention of
trustees, it would bepuch better if it were allowed to hold it
directly.—( Hear, hear.)
The gallery was then cleared for a division, but none took
place, the amendment having been withdrawn.
Mr. STAEIipRD O'BRIEN moved the substitution of the
word " thirty" for the word " three" in the 33d line of the 2d
clause. He thought that his motion was different from that of
the Hon. Member for Hull. He wished to give the Roman
Catholics of Ireland an opportunity of acting on the voluntary
principle, which they seemed to approve of. He did not agree
with the Hon. Member for Montrose, that his motion,
adopted, would lead to increased irritation out of doors.
Mr. HUME recommended the withdrawal of the amend-
ment, because it would excite unnecessary alarm. He thought
the public had slready greatly mistaken the nature of the Bill.
Sir R. INGLIS thought the Hon. Member was outbidding
even the Government, and would not therefore support him.
He thought the Hon. Member would at once withdraw the
clause and allow them to proceed to the consideration of the
other clauses.
Mr. SMYTHE thought it was-very absurd in a State to
tolerate and even to recognise religion, and yet proscribe reli-
gious munificence and limit its extent.--(Hear.)
After a few words from Mr. DARBY,
Mr. HUME said he had been quite misunderstood. If Hon.
Gentlemen asked him what he would do if he had the power
of remodelling the three kingdoms, he did tot think he would
be bound to tell them—(A laugh)—they were there tolegislate
upon a particular subject. Some were snore alarmed at the
pretended increase of Popery—he confessed be felt no alarm at
all on the subject. Some Hon. Members had spoken of want
of gratitude on the part of the Irish people. Now he did not
think the Irish 'people could be expected to go down upon their
knees and thank them for so small a favour. They had but
little reason to express gratitude for what had been done. He
regretted that more Christian feeling and Christian sympathy
for our Roman Catholic fellow-countrymen had not been mere
generally shown.
Mr. ROEBUCK wished to know whether the Hon. Mem-
ber for Northamptonshire would divide the House.
Mr. S. O'BRIEN said, that after what had been said by
the Hon. Member for the University of Oxford, he did not
think he would. The Hon. Gentleman seemed to have great
anxiety to proceed with the Bill.
Sir R. ING LI said lie intended to give every fair and legi-
timate opposition to the measure, but none other.—( Hear. )
Mr. RECINGTON reminded the' House that no Hen.
Member—that no one or. his side of the House asked him to
withdraw the amendment.
Mr. S. O'BRIEN said he understood what the Hon. Mem-
ber for Dundalk meant, and would divide the House on the
amendment.
The House then divided, when there uppeared—
For the amendment 33
Against, it
Majority against the amendment
Mr. LAW, who had a motion on the paper for negativing
the 10th and 11th clauses, said that the Bill enabled the
trustees to receive any amount of personal property, and a large
quantity of landed property. The remaining clauses in the
Mil principally rested on the foundation of the Consolidated
Fund. He proposed to negative all the clauses dependent
upon the Consolidated Fund, but to take no division on the
intermediate clauses.
On clause 4 being proposed,
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that in line 8 he would pro-
pose an alteration. If they would look at clause 7, where
provision was made for the Dunboyne students, they would
observe that provision was made for attendance, &c., for the
senior students, whereas, in the clause now under the conside-
ration of the House, provision was only made for the president,
vice-president, princi; als, and vice-principals. The sum was
limited to 6,000/., which was to be at the disposal of the trus-
tees. It had been suggested to him to add the words,
" Whereas it is expedient that provision be made for the sala-
ries of president, vice-president, principal, and vice-principal,
in said colleges, and to extend the attendance and other neces-
saries to be supplied for their use."
After a few words from Mr. LAW in approval of the formal
mode of the amendment,

Mr. PLUMPTRE said that much had been said about the
poverty of the Roman Catholic clergy, but he did not think
that Roman Catholics themselves would admit any such
poverty—they would repudiate the imputation. Expensive and
beautiful churckes were everywhere building throughout
Ireland. In Waterford, 70,0001. had been expended on a
cathedral.

Mr. HUME would ask the Honourable Member for Kent
why grants were made to the Universities of Oxford and Cam-
bridge, to the Protestant Dissenters, and the Scottish clergy ?
If the Hon. Gentleman would answer thin question, then be
(Mr. Hume) would give the Hon. Gentleman an answer to
the question he had asked.
Colonel SIBTHORP trusted this detestable clause would
not be allowed to pass.—( Great laughter.)
Mr. WILLIAMS said he had always found that the Hon.
Member for Kent was ready to vote money most lavishly for
everything except the grant to Maynooth. The vote of Rh

. , • _. .....
to the Bishop of Exeter, for his expenses in visiting a por-
tion of his diocese—the vote of 11,000/. to the clergy of all de-
nominations in the colonies—the vote to the Jew., Catholics,
Wesievans, and others in Jamaica—all were supported by the
Hon. Member for Kent.

Mr. WYSE made some observations, which were inaudible
in the gallery.
Mr. FERRAND said the Right Honourable Gentleman
at the head of the Government had stated that it was ex-
pedient to pass this measure as a measure of peace
to Ireland—what had been the result of this
Mr. S. O'Br'en had, in the Conciliation Hall, talked
about an American fleet sweeping the Channel, and of one
third of the British army deserting the Queen. He (Mr.
Ferrand) trusted that her Majesty's Government would have
the decency not to force this Bill through Committee that
night. He believed that during the Whitsuntide holidays
general meetings of the constituencies would be convened.
Many Members had come into that House pledged to resign
their seats when called upon by a majority of their constituents.
Were they ready to redeem that pledge ? He understood that
the Honourable Member opposite (Mr. Stanheldt) was pre-
pared to do sn, and this did him honour.
Mr. STANSFIELD said he had been waited upon by a de-
putation, and he had certainly stated that he had felt bound in
honour to vote according to his own conscience.—(Cheers.)
He felt that this was a measure of justice to that part of her
Majesty's dominions to which the Bill was applied. He cer-
tainly objected to this money being taken from the Consoli-
dated Fund, and he had therefore supported the motion of the
Honourable Member for Sheffield. This motion not being
successful, he still felt it to be his duty to
vote for the motion of the Government. There
were many other questions asked him. Amongst others,
whether ho would continue to support this measure against
the opinions of his constituents ? He said that he thought it
his duty to attend to the wishes of his constituents, but that
he had a higher duty, which was to attend to the interests of
the whole commons of England.—(Cheers.) Ile said that if
he were to be forced to vote against his own conscience he
would rather resign.—(Cheers.) He had been reported to
say something about resigning. He had said just what he had
stated to the House, that he would prefer resigning to voting
against his conscientious opinion.
Mr. SHAW cbjected upon principle to the endowment of
any Catholic college, and the amount was no part of his objec-
tion.—( Hear, hear.) At the same time, he did not think that
the college itself would be benefited by the grant.—( Hear. )
It had been very truly said that the Catholics in this country
supported several colleges, and he thought that the Roman
Catholics in Ireland could do the same. He would not object
to give the Catholics the power of endowing a college for
themselves.

Mr. WYSE said that the Right Hon. and Learned Mem-
ber spoke as if the Catholics of Ireland supported no college of
their own ; whereas they supported a college in Galway, one
in Meath, one in Kilkenny, and one at Carlow. He thought
the fact that they supported colleges at their own expense en-
titled them the more to support from the State.—(Hear, hear.)
It was impossible in the present condition of the funds of May-
nooth that the education of the priests could be adequate to the
high office they were destined to fill. The State had taken
upon itself the support of the college, and the least it could de
was to give a suffilient support.
Mr. SHAW had not denied the liberal:ty of the Catholics of
Ireland as regarded the education of their c'ergy. He only
said the State ought not to be called upon to educate priests
for them. As for the general purposes of a 1 beral education
the University of Dublin was open equally to Catholics and
Protestants, except only the officers on the foundation, such as
scholars and the fellows.
Mr. REDINGTON said that as an Irish Roman Catholic
he felt the deepest interest in the rePege in which the priests
were to be educated. He denied test he Roman Catholics of
Ireland deserved the taunt of the Learned Recorder, that they
ought to support their own college. The Catholics had, of
late years, built churches out of their roor means, almost
temples of religion which their Catholic an.
creivsatol
rtshohsaed gbrueaiitt,
ad which were now occupied by the
professors of the dominant religion. He hoped he should never
hear again such illiberal language even from the Hon.
and Learned Recorder. The State had hitherto con-
tributed a small portion of that of which the Irish Catholic
Church bad bet n plundered with the sanction of the State,
and it was time that the contribution should be increased.
Sir R. INGLIS protested against the language of the Hon.
Member who spoke last, and said that the Established Church
had plundered the Roman Catholic with the sanction of the
State. There was much of that kind of language held out of
doors, but he could not hear it in the House without protest.
Mr. WYSE said it was matter of history, that the Catholic
Church was plundered at the period of the Reformation. Nor
was it that Church alone that was plundered ; but the Catholic
landed proprietors in Ireland were plundered of their estates.
Mr. ORMSBY GORE believed that the measure would
be exceedingly useful, and be could assure the Right Hon.
Baronet that he should have his firmest support. He assured
the Bight Hon. Baronet that he was supported by a strong
religious feelirg in the House and jout of doors.—( Cheers.)
Whatever might be the consequences to himself he would give
the measure his most strenuous and most religions support, and
no consideration on earth could induce him to shrink from de-
claring the joy which he felt at the announcement of so useful
cinhsatngteheforth
the better measure,
bttberut hadit was
st
withwet
a measure.—(Cheers.) He respected the feelings of those
equally boisterous opposition, and he hoped the Government
kwnhoow nPetthi petitioned
eedverayga
would not be deterred from persevering in the pious and noble
work which they had begun.
Mr. JAMES was anxious to state the fact that, in a country
which he had lately visited, Belgium, the Catholic Legislature
of that country granted a handsome stipend to various Protes.
tant clergymen in that country. In Brussels there were two
clergymen, who had salaries from the Government, and there
were several others similarly
supported in Ghent and other
towns. He was sorry that circumstances precluded the possi-
bility of being present to vote for the measure of the Right
Hon. Baronet. Ile would now take the opportunity of most
cordially giving his support in favour of the grant.--( Hear.),
The clause was then agreed to.
On clause 5 being proposed,
Mr. COLLETT wished to know what was the stipend
which the Dunboyne students were to receive ?

Sir It PEEL said that -itw;;their.Znticin that the Dun..
boon students acre to receive 65/. each per annum.
This clause, together with clauses 6 and 7, were thea
agreed to.
On clause 8 being put,
Sir J. GRAHAM said that he was desirous to insert two
words in this clause, which related to the accommodation of the
students. He wi,lied that the words " professors and "should
be put before the word " students'

Col :net SIBTEIOIII3 said that he was against the whole
Bill from beginning to end. He would do all he could to in,
duc2 Membi rs to throw it out altogether.—(Laughter.)
The clause, as amended, was agreed to.
Clauses 9, 12, 13, and 14, were then agreed to.
On clause 15 being proposed
Mr. PLUMPTRE said that as it related to the controul

over the education pursued at the College, he would otject to
the class books which were used there.
Clause 15 was then put and agreed to, as was clause IS..
Before clause 17 being read, -*
Mr. WYSE said he would take the opportunity 4-
clautc being read, to state, in reply to the Hon. Itirenbritomr-..
site, that. " Denn's Tbeolog
"ekle"wotouni'dw,alns; ata,te that it
been read, at Abaynooth College,
thewas is
havingPoped h
os
said
exercisedtuirs
~e a
nn 1
ga ye
dn otot hs,t.aor inia,t •Irelurl,oi in arnsndy
other
kridm oi f
Eoiheibtil• yg teroporalxower
wha o
ow,
n
addition, that be would undertake to read a passage fromte
boots