The Sun.
London, England, 1845-03-08 00:00:00

eatn.e it was only r2as,nabie that the public should know what
the MOIV`y was re 'Lily for.
The arnenthnent isas then withdrawn.

Alr. HOGG rose, not for the purpose of entering into a (Es-
cusson upon the course the Givernmetit now proposed to
pursue, but to expres,, his concurrence in the alterations the
Right Honourable Gentleman the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer had made in his resolutions. He originally
objected to the rule the Government wished to establish
of ascertaining the quality t f sugar wi•hout reference
to it.• colour. The Right klon. Gentleman the Chancellor of
the Exchequer had since consented to tall in with his views, and
he had only now to thank that Right lion. Gentleman for the
attention he had paid to his suggestions. He had communicated
the alteration to the Committee of the East India and China
Association, from which it would be remembered he presented
a petition to the House some short time ago on the subject,
and he was happy to say they were perfectly satisfied with the
measure as it now stood. With regard to the practicability of
working the measure, he thought that part of the matter ought
to be left to the Government.

Mr. C. WOOD wished the whole of the correspondence
which had taken place between the Government and the Bra-
zilian authorities to be laid en the table of the House. The
Right lion Gentleman contended that one rate of duty ought
to be applied to all sugars, and that no distinction ought to be
made on account of saccharine matter, granulation, or colour.
The CH AN CELLO R of tLe EXCHEQUER said that there
would be no difficulty in making the classification with rt•si,ect
to white clayed sugar, as it was a commodity well known.
Mr. F. BARING slid not expect that there world have
been a classification during the present year. He had always
been in favour of the clasqfication of sugar, considering it a sys-
tem that would ultimately be beneficial. He thought the qual-
fication by far the best mode. The duties were generally ad
valorem, but the greatest inconvenience arose from that He
should be very glad if the Chancellor of the Exchequer would
give the House a short estimate of :he benefit he hoped to de-
rive front the duties he now proposed.
Th. CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that his
original expectation was that a greater quantity of the higher
classes of Java sugar would he introduced into the country.
There had, however, been no opportunity at present to bring it
to the test, as no vessel had arrived from Manilla.
Sir W. CLAY said that &I the orders which had been sent
nut by merchants to Java and Manilla were orders for a higher
quality of sugar, for which, therefore, the higher duty would be
paid. In compliment to the Hun. Member for Beverley the
Government had partly given up the test of colour, but the
explanation given by the Hon. Gentleman had not removed
the difficulty.
After a few words from Mr. C. WOOD, which were inaudible
in the gallery,
Mr. GLADSTONE said the reas •n why the principle of
discrimination had been given up before was, not because it
was impracticable, but because the mode of discriminating was
glaringly unjust. The of of that mode was, that low sugars.
which had undergone filtration, often had a high duty impo,ed
on them, while upon many excellent sugars a low duty was
charged. It appeared from the returns of the United States
that a considerable quantity of sugar entered there
at a higher rate of duty, and this proved that the
principle of discrimination could not be carried out.
The tact was conclusive as to the possibility of establishing, a
discriminating duty. It was as yet altogether matter of conjec-
ture what foreign sugar would be introduced into this country.
Mr. HUME did not know whether the Hon. Member fur
Beverhty had read the paper put into their hands a few days
ago. The words of the Act of George IV. were, " clayed or
otherwise refined sugar, so as to be equal to the quality of re-
fined sugar." These were the words demanded by the Hon.
Member the other evening, and now conceded to him ; but he
dig not believe that they would remove the difficulty. Who
was to say whether sugar was clayed or not clayed? Was the
party to be a custom-house officer, a refiner, or a generul
trader ? The volume to which he had referred pointed
out the grossest contradictions on the part of men
who were the best informed on the subject.
What conclusion had they come to ? That " they deemed
it right to state the great difficulty existing in obtaining an
unbiassed opinion on the question of fact, which sort of sugar
should pay the higher, and which the lower, rate of duty. As
to sugar that had undergoneC any process for the purpose of
discharging it of its impurities, and making it equal to clayed
sugar, it appeared impracticable to put in force the Act of the
Ist of Geo. IV., and that the only course was to repeal that
Act and impose one rate of duty.' The whole of the volume
pointed oat the utter impossibility of levying the duty. The
owners of cargoes continually asked to know what they had
to pay. Scarcely a cargo was introduced that did not pay the
lower duty, a bond being taken for the payment of the dif-
ference, if it was found necessary ; in some cases the higher
duty was paid to escape delay. if this was the ease
where there was only one distinction taken, he asked
the Honourable Member for Beverley what he could ex-
pert under a plan so much more complicated? In compliance
with the recommendation:of the Commissioners, that distinction
was withdrawn, and from that day to this there had been no
trouble at all. He had thought that the Right Hon. Baronet,
in the simplification he was introdueing into the Custom-house
business of the country, would have considered more carefully
the complicated plan he now proposed. He could not agree
with the Iloa. Member for Beverley as to the classification of
sugars, unless it could be dune in a manner that could not be
mistaken. They might draw tine distinctions, but he (Mr.
Hume) did not like there lines drawn between night and day.
They,would have different distinctions drawn in London, Liver-
pool, and Ilristol, and the whole plan would be impracticable
to carry oat; he regretted that so complicated a scheme should
have been introduced. No two dealers would agree en one
line of distinction, and the consequence would be, that
some cargoes would be stopped, and some would be allowed
to pass, thus producing utter confusion. When any
doubt existed, they ought to encourage the importation
of the best article, but these regulations would discourage the
introduction of the highest qualities; he regretted that the
Government should have gone against the recommendation of
their own officers. He would rather take the opinions founded
on their experience, than try any new, experiment ; he could
only enter his protest against it. He had no objection to a
revenue being raised ou sugar, provided it went into the
Exchequer, but he did object to the indefinite premium and
advantage that were given to particular interests. He thought
that protection ought to be given to the West Indies, till they
could be supplied with labour, or they would be unjustly
ter ated. But there was no reason why this protection should
be extended to the Mauritius and the East Indies ; they could
already command labour, and stood in a different position.
He wished the Right Hon. Baronet had stated distinctly what
was the amount of protection he would give, and then they
would know what they bad to trust to. lie hoped the Hon.
Member for Beverley would find reasons for the satisfaction
he had expressed with the proposals of her Majesty's Go-
vernment.

Mr. HOGG said the lion. Member for Montrose had ex-
pressed astonishment that he should be satisfied with the plan
of the Government. He did not understand what ought to
be the measure of Parliamentary contentment ; the standard
might be as difficult to ascertain as that of the qualities of
sugar. He had made certain objections to the manner of
levying the duties on sugar, and the Government had been kind
enough to attend to those objections and to remove the cause
of them. The Hon. Gentleman way astonished that he (Mr.
Hogg) should be satisfied and should hold his tongue. Ile had
heard of parties in a cme, who having judge and jury with
them, by their impudence in talking, had turned both
against them. He believed he had the House with
bins, he had got the Government with him, and
that being the case ho was perfectly content.
It was proposed that the duties should be taken according to
quality, but as this appeared likely to lead to great discussion,
he, to guard against that difficulty, proposed that the word
quality should not be left to the caprice of Custom-house
officers, but should be defined by the Act of Parliament, to be
founded on three elements, colour, percolation, and the amount
of saccharine matter. This had been adopted ; the whole of
the difficulty arose from this, that the Custom-house officers
persevered in asserting that all sugars from the East Indies
that had gone through a certain process of percolation by which
they were freed from molasses, were liable to the higher duty ;
ail the difficulty had arisen from the dogged adherence of the
Custom-house officers to this practice of charging the higher
duties on sugar that had undergone any purifying process.
Sir R. PEEL said he had beer, surprised by one of the ob-
servations made by the lion. Member for Montrose. He in-
ferred that the lion. Member thought it desirable protection
should be granted to the West Indian colonies, for some time at
least, till they could be provided with the means of commanding
labour, as they were placed in a peculiar difficulty, to which
the East Indies were not liable. A protection might, therefore,
be claimed by the West Indies, which could not with equal
justice be extended to the East Indies. Then the Hon. Mem-
ber must revert to the practice under which different rates of
duty were applied to West Indian and East Indian produce. He
diethink, till the Hon. Member for Montrose declared that
there ought not to be any distinctive duties, it had been almost
the unanimous opinion of the House that the produce of the
West Indies should have some protection. But the Hon.
Member now seemed to advocate a return to that practice under
which differential and discriminating duties were levied on
West and East Indian produce. Ile thought the lion. Gentle-
man who sat below the Hon. Member would be rather sur-
prised at that doctrine. The Hon. Gentleman had an objection
to discriminating duties, but he said, if they could establish a d fie-
rential rate of duty on the higher and lower qualities of tea, then the
principle of a discriminating duty would be perfectly just.
Well, but the Government was about to apply that prin-
ciple. lie had never concealed the difficulties of the
case ; he had stated them the ether night, and the interval
that had occurred since then had been employed by them
in inquiring of the most experienced Government
officers, whether this principle of a discriminating duty, with
respect to the qualities of sugar, could be carried out. The
opinion of these officers was that they ought not to abandon
these discriminating duties. After considerable experience
they said there would be nice shades of tplality, which
might cre .te some difficulty, but that after some prac-
tice with respect to the great bulk of sugars imported,
there would be no such difficulties as would be found in-
superable. Almost every Honourable Gentleman who
had spoken, had admitted the principle of discriminating
duties was not unjust. If they abandoned it now for an
equal rate of duty, he believed they could never revert to it
again. They were about to make a considerable change in the
sugar duties, and the experiment must be tried immediately, if
it was to be tried at all. If they abandoned the discriminating
duties now, they could not revert to it on a future occasion.
Therefore, on the whole, the Government hail decided that
the experiment ought to be tried, because they believed the
principle was a go al one, and because the best experience
proved that the difficulties attending its operation might be
overcome. In Bristol, Liverpool, and London, the greater
quantity of the sugar consumed in this country was
landed. A small quantity was brought into the Clyde, but the
greatest amount, not less than four-fifths of the whole, was im-
ported into those three ports. Liverpool was now within ten
hours of London, and by bringing the officers of these ports
into close communication with each other, they hoped it would
be possible to establish a unity of action, and conduct the exa-
mination of the sugars in such a manner that the trade would
not be subjected to great injury. That was the conclusion the
Government had drawn from the inquiries they had made since
the subject was last under the consideration of the House.
The preponderance of practical opinions was decidedly in favour
of a trial of the experiment. He thought the House would
have inferred from the general course of this debate, that opi-
nion was in favour of trying the experiment. He could not
help thinking, too, that a great change wax to be made in
carrying on this manufacture, by the application of new
machinery, greater skill, and fresh capital. They could not
judge of the future state of this trade by the past.
Sir WILLIAM CL AY thought the Right Honourable
Baronet was bound to show some grounds for these
differential duties. He thought the House and the
country had a right to expect this. Seeing that the
prime cost of sugar was not more than 10s. per cwt., it was
too much to impose a duty equal to 100 per cent. on the prime
cost. He thought this was neither just to the people of
England, nor prudent to the colonies themselves. Ile believed
the time was fast approaching when British India would settle
the question as to the comparative productiveness of slave and
free labour. He believed that British India would produce
far more than enough to make up any deficiency that might
take place in the supply of sugar from the colonies.
Amid loud cries of " divide, divide," the Honour •
able Baronet proceeded to say that he believed that this
endeavour of the Government had only reference •to purposes
of revenue, but he believed that those purposes would he
served better by the adoption of his ( Sir W. Clay's) plan. His
object was to manse a duty of only 4s. tad. per cwt., which
was equal to 41. 13s. 4d. a ton, and by the adoption of this plan,
no less a sum would be saved to the consumers in this
country than 1,160,000/. The Right Hon. Gentleman the
Chancellor o t 1 (Exchequer had said that he wished to apply