The Sun.
London, England, 1845-02-19 00:00:00

ittee, and looking at the nine men who constituted the Com •
mittee of the House of Lords, he would ask, could it be said
that there had really been an abuse of that power, or such an
abuse of it as would warrant the use of such an expression as a
base abuse of at ?—( Hear.) Undoubtedly, some mistakes
might have been made; but, surely, it cmild not be said that
this power had been exercised for an unworthy purpose.—
( Hear, hear.) Well, then, the Committee made a report con-
taining this paragraph. ( Here the Hon. Baronet read the
paragraph, which was to the effect that)—" The Com-
mittee was bound to say that, having looked back
for a period of twenty, years, they had found that this
power had been very sparingly exercised, and never for party
or political purposes, but always to promote the ends of jus-
tice, the public tranquillity, and the best interests of the coun-
try." He would conclude, then, by saying, that it was in such
a way only that this power had been used by the present Go-
vernment ; that in some doubtful cases mistakes might have
been made, but that the report of the Committee had declared
that they had not used it for private or personal motives. If the
House believed that, when the Government did exercise this
power, they were urged to do so only by an earnest and faithful
desire to promote the ends of just ice--to prevent a disturbance of
the public tranquillity—he would then ask this House, who
give the Government th it power—not to imply a condemna-
tion of their own Committee, or a suspicion of their conduct,
when placed upon their trial by those who had constituted them
a Committee.—( Loud cheers.)
Mr. WARBURTON said he felt boun I, as a member of
the Committee, and as a Member of that House, standing in
opposition to the Right Hon. Baronet, to confirm the statement
of the Hon. Member for Liverpool. He felt bound to say that
the most unreserved communication of all the facts that could
be made had been made to the Committee, by every Member
of Parliament examined before them ; and that, no matter
what their political opinions, they readily communicated all
that had come to their knowledge upon the subject. He also
felt bound to say that he fully concurred in the paragraph read
by the Right Hon. Baronet from the report, while at the same
time he should say that though he was very active, as a Mem-
ber of the Committee, in looking back for precedents, he could
find none that, to his conviction, appeared to justify the
extent to which the present Government had exer-
cised that power.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") A Member of
the Committee had said that they would require the assistance
of a legal gentleman on the Committee ; but he (Mr. War-
burton) conceived that it was net law points they had to decide,
bat to find out what precedents the Government had for the
exercise of this power. As to the conduct of Sir James
. Graham, he (Mr. Warburton) would now say, as he had said
before the Committee, that—
Mr. ESTCOTT rose to order. He conceived it was most
unfair and disorderly—( Loud cries of " Order, order")—for
any Member to state to that House the opinions expressed by a
Secret Committee, until the House was in a position to ascer-
tain all the other facts. He apprehended that this having been
a Secret Committee, all that passed in it ought to be kept
secret by the Alembers.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. WARBURTON said that he had only spoken upon
what appeared in the report.—(Hear.) If he spoke on what
had occurred in the Committee, and had not been thought
proper to publish, the remark of the Hon. Gentleman who
called him to order would have been perfectly correct.—
( Hear.) But what he had said in reference to M. Mazzini's
case, was only a comment upun what had been made known in
the report to the whole House, and upon which he had as much
right to express his opinion as any other Member.—(Hear.)
He would press that matter no further. Now the question was,
whether it was expedient to grant to the Hon. Member for
Finsbury the committee which he asked for ; and he (Mr. War-
burton) thought that as a member of the former Committee he was
bound to state his own opinion on that question. Well, then,
his own opinion was that the facts had been stated to the House
by the former Committee as far as it was for the public good
they should be.—(Hear, hear.) It would have been very easy
for the Committee to have been more communicative—( Hear,
and a laugh)—if they had thought that it would be for the
public good that they should be so. He apprehended that it
was the duty of the Committee to lay before the House the facts
as far as was necessary to enable the House to judze whether it
was fit that the power should be continued. In coming to a con-
clusion upon that matter, the House would be guided by the
general impression of the facts, and not by the opinion
of any one Member of the Committee. (Hear,
hear.) The general effect of the facts stated by the
Committee in the report, upon his mind was, that it was
not worth the while of any Government whatever to retain
the pa mer.—( Hear, hear.) There had been eight warrants
on the average in the year, and the greater part of them were
issued in criminal eases.—( Hear, hear.) Those were cases
in which no one could suppose the power was of any advantage;
for to effect any public utility the practice should be generally
known. But he had inquired of his own solicitor, who had
great experience in criminal cases, and that lawyer informed
him, that he had never known the Government possessed any
such power. Surely it was not worth the while of
the Government to incur the unpopularity of a
power of such little use. But further, when he
considered the immense physical power which the
Government now possessed through means of the railways,
and by which they were enabled to send the whole of the army
and police to any one part of the kingdom within twenty-four
hours, if the internal peace of the country were threatened,
surely it was not worth their while to continue a practice so
much opposed to the moral feelings of the people.—( Hear. )
Mr. WAKLEY said the Hon. Member for Kendal (Mr.
Warburton) had avowed himself the author of the antiquarian
evidence contained in the report—( A laugh)—and the Hon.
Member confessed that, with all his research, lie had been able
to find no authority whatever for the Secretary of State's open-
ing letters as had been done. But the Secretary of State told
the House that his authority was in a statute of Anne.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said, no; he had stated that the
power of issuing warrants was first granted in a statute of Anne,
which had been confirmed by subsequent statutes.
Mr. WAKLEY said, that was in point of substance what
he had just said. The statute of Anne was the foundation
and original of the authority, as the Secretary of State now ac-
knowledged. But the Hon. Member for Kendal said, that he
could find no authority whatever in ancient usage.—( Hear.)
The debate had gone to such a point that the ought to have
an acknowledgment on the part of the Right lion. Baronet of
the source whence he derived the authority which he had exer-
cised with regard to the opening of the letters.—( Hear, hear. )
He again stated that he understood the Right Hon. Gentleman
to say the foundation of that authority was contained in the
Act of Queen Anne. In the course of his speech the Right
Hon. Gentleman remarked upon the constitution of the Com-
mittee of the House of Commons, and its great legal acquire.
ments.—(Hear, hear.) Now he wished to bring to
the knowledge of the Howse what the Committee of the House
of Lords had reported with regard to the statute of Anne. He
thought it was a most important fact, for it really appeared to
him that there was no legal authority at all for the exercise of
this power. But there might be an emergency—a great public
emergency might arise for a Minister taking upon himself the
responsibility of opening letters, throwing himself on the opinion
of Parliament and the public to justify him in the act. This
was a most important decision on the part of the Committee
of the House of Lords. The Committee stated that the pro-
vision contained in the Act of the 9th of Queen Anne, chap.
10, upon this subject, could only be explained upon the sup-
position that this power was for the time fully recognised, for
the Act itself gave no power to the Secretary
of State either to detain or open letters.—( Hear,
hear.) That was the report of the Lords Committee.
Now, the Secretary of State had exercised this authority, and
what he wanted to know was, where he got the foundation for
exercising it? The meaning of the Act appeared to him to
be no more than this :—lf a Secretary of State, upon his
own responsibility and for the public safety, should deem it ex-
pedient to open the letters of persons whom he supposed to be
engaged in treasonable practices, the party executing the war-
rant was entirely free from all responsibility. The Statute of
Anne implied that and nothing more, and the decision of the
Lords in that respect was important. Now, it devolved upon
the Governsnentto show that they had exercised a legal authority,
and unless the Secretary of State could show by the statute-
law that he was justified in issuing these warrants, an action at
law would lie against him.—(Hear, hear.) His Honourable
Colleague was placed in an extraordinary position by the course
of the Government. He discharged his duties with great
ability, and he might say, with great valour. He had the
confidence of the people, and he was entitled to that confidence,
for no man could exercise his facetious in that House more
honestly and ably than he did. Now what was the position he
was now placed in ? A foreigner, re yin on the ability of his
Mon. Colleague, placed in hie hands petition, in which he
stated-e" My letters—my letters have 0 ern opened in your
Post-office. I consider that I am an ill-used man, and I have
petitioned the House of Commons for redress." The subject
was first mooted there in that form. When the
Right Hon. Baronet, immediately following the presenta-
tion of that petition, was asked a question with regard
to the number of warrants issued to open the letters of
an individual named Stoltman, the Right Hon. Baronet
replied that, if his Hen. Colleague had given him notice, he
would have told him whether he had done so or not. Well,
from this it was imagined that the Right Hon. Baronet had
issued such a vast number of warrants that he could net re-
collect the name of Stoltman ; bat it turned out afterwards,
from a Committee of the House of Lords, that warrants had
only been issued with regard to one or two individuals. Well,
as the case progressed, a Secret Committee was appointed to
inquire into the circumstances, and he hoped that it would be
a useful lesson to them never to appoint another. The Secret
Committee made a report in which they disclosed everything
they thought necessary for the public advantage, and intimated
that it would be dangerous to the community if anything more
were known. Now, the name of his Hon. Colleague was ex-
cluded from that report, and he now charged the Government
with having opened his own letters. What was the answer
made to this charge ? The Right Hon. Baronet was not ex-
cluded from his own secrecy, and the name of her Majesty was
introduced on that occasion in a most extraordinary manner.
The Right Hon. Baronet screened himself from censure by in-
troducing the name of the Queen. The Right Hon. Gentle-
man did not deny the charge, but the Right Hon. Baronet
the First Lord of the Treasury had made a sort of justifica-
tion, or attempted to make a justification of the
charge. What did the Right Hon. Baronet say ? He said the
country in 1t342 was in a state of commotion. That the rural
districts were in a frightful state of agitation, and that incen-
diarisro was rife throughout the country. Now what was the
conclusion to be drawn from all this? Was it that his Hon.
Colleague was connected with seditious movements at that
time ?—( Hear, hear.) That was the inference. That was
the justification of opening the letters of an Hon.
Member of that House.—( Hear, hear.) The Right
Hon. Baronet's language was so plain and obvious,
that it could not be misunderstood by any one. If the Right
Hon. Baronet did not mean that, what did he mean ?—( Hear,
bear.) Why were those circumstances cited ?—( Hear, hear,
and cheers.) Observe, his Hon. colleague, in his political
warfare, was fond of attacking Ministers; and the Right Hon.
Baronet the Secretary of State for the Home Department
Bing high game, was often selected for assault.—( Laughter. )
He occasionally attacked the judges. Now was an Hon. Mem-
ber, who exercised those very useful public funetions, to have
his letters opened, and that by the party attacked
--(Hear, h -
called responsibility,
, ea r )—who sheltered himself under what was
which col Could though that responsibility was a thing
diseover. The
aeould touch, and no subtlety or ingenuity could
without doubt, Right Hon. Gentleman's official character was,
insinuations
whileriolpl!cated in this transaction ; and after the
a Ministead been thrown out, they had a right to
know why
r'
was justified in opening the letters of a
Member of that House
of sedition. It was not de" casting upon him the odious brand
nig that the letters of his Hon. Col-
-1 a a
ague had been opened, thy would all hold their seats,
characters, and lives, under peculiar
stat circumstances, unless the
Right Hon. Baronet did not
an state the circumstances which
justified him in prying into
Member's letters.—
( Hear, bear.) Supposing there were le. Alltba:
authority by im-
plication for opening letters, was there anything justify the
. was it said
whole of these movements being secret?
in the law that they might open a letter, seal
and then forward it, the party for whom i(tHwietaarsa,eintielatadiend
never suspecting what had been done ?
Let them liken this proceeding for a moment to the case of
magistrate who issued a search warrant to search a house -
for whether the :warrant referred to a house or a letter the
principle was the same. Before a magistrate would issue such
a warrant he must have information on oath. Let them sup-
pose, however, that a policeman had gone into a house by
night, and after opening the
doors had searched
the house, and gone out again in such a manner
as entirely to conceal what had been done. He
believed every one would acknowledge that the magistrate
. t.,tz..sliuch proceedings was unfit for his post, and
Ar,'" 1 4.. 's.-9,, ,TW§, , . . try gran which wink' justify the Right
The lion.
e"--' '46;'-r14",.. ,„ak . coarse *Lich he had punned.
.:;'. E '. ' .1117 -; ' ' -1-7‘ . •ii tb the cast of Captain Stoltman
' : %
• (~', "ur "if ,e proceedings in whose taste It>`
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