The Sun.
London, England, 1845-02-17 00:00:00

TEE SUN, LONDON, MONO AY EVENING, FEBRUARY 171 1845.

Mr. LABOUCHERE said that the answer of the 7
Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir G. Clerk)
would not give satisfaction.— (Hear, hear.) It was
important to consider that the inquiry had been en-
trusted to a responsible department of the Govern-
ment—(Hear, hear)—and it was not intended
that it should be left to a tribunal composed of gen-
tlemen who had no Parliamentary responsibility.—
(Hear, hear.) The Committee which sat last year
recommended that the Board of Trade should exa-
mine the applications to be made to Parliament for
new railway projects, and for rival railways,
and should report to the House their opinion
of their merits ; but he did not think that
the Committee, in making that recommendation, at all
contemplated that there should be constituted a new
tribunal, exempt from Parliamentary responsibility.
He had been a member of that Committee, and to
speak for himself, he never had contemplated any
such thing. He thought that the Board of Trade would
transact the business itself, and that the President or
the Vice-President, or some member of the Govern-
ment, being responsible to Parliament, would have pro-
vided for the proper performance of this business in
the railway department. Ile thought the Board :of
Trade was bound to take the duty upon itself—
(Hear, hear)—and he never before had heard
of the appointment cf a tribunal constituted, as was
the one in question, of persons having no Parlia-
mentary character and no responsibility to the
hear.) He thought that those
should not have the task thrown upon them,
gcoeunntltermy(fr'
how ever respectable they might be. He did not wish
to say a word against their respectability, upon
which there could be no imputation, but he must say
that it was not proper that gentlemen who filled such
situations as that of private secretary should have
been placed in possession of such extraordinary power
and with such little responsibility.—(Hear,hear.) He
must also say that certainly suspicions had arisen. lie
did not hesitate to declare his convictions that these
suspicions were wholly unfounded. But he thought the
Government had to thank itself for having occasioned
those suspicions by the manner in which they had
instituted the Board. However, tl.e mischief had
been done, and could not very well be remedied so
far. Still he must repeat that he did not think the
answer of the Hon. Gentleman had been satisfactory.
He agreed with the Hon. Gentleman opposite that
whatever effect the report of the Board of Trade might
have on the House must depend on its impartiality.
If it was found that the engineer of the Board differed
from the rest of his colleagues upon the nature of the
report, that must, of course, very much detract from
it.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. GLADSTONE said he he did not intend to
enter into the question upon which this discussion
commenced—namely, an examination or an analysis
of the Railway Board as to the opinion of its members.
But there were two other matters introduced, upon '
which he wished to say a few words. The Honour-
able and Learned Member for Winchester ex-
pressed a strong opinion, that if the judg-
ments of the Board were to carry any weight
their proceedings must be public. Now he stated
most strongly to the House that there was no choice
between having their proceedings not public and
having no Railway Board at ail.—(Hear, hear.)
There was no alternative. If the House was of
opinion that they should establish public proceedings
before a Board of that nature they must have regular
and formal examinations of witnesses—the parties
counsel and agents must be constantly present_
they must have regular statements and replies—
they must have all that delay and expense which the
very gentlemen who complained of the want of pub-
licity were parties to expose before that House.
With regard to the composition of the Board, the
Right Hon. Gentleman opposite was the first person
from whom he had heard any censure, and far less
such severe censure as that of the Right Honourable
Gentleman. It was easy to find fault with its con-
stitution, or any plan that might be adopted under the
circumstances; but if he locked to the alternative to
which the Right Hon. Gentleman pointed out in
the remarks he addressed to the House, he
was not at all shaken in his conviction that the course
taken in the appointment of the Board was the best
course of which the circumstances would admit.
The Right Hon. Gentleman admitted that if there
was to be a Board at all, he would have it constituted
of Privy Councillors. Now he would ask the
House how it was possible to constitute the
Board of Privy Councillors, the members of which
should have patiently devoted themselves from morn-
ing till night, for the space of four or five months, to
receive deputations, to examine papers, and form con •
elusions connected with 240 railroads.—(Hear, hear.)
Perhaps it might be the opinion of the Right Hon.
Gentleman that such things were possible. In his
(Mr. Gladstone's) opinion, it was totally visionary ;
and he was astonished to hear such a plan recom-
mended by any person, but particularly by a gentle-
man of great ability, who held a high public
office in the country. Another plan was, that
the President and Vice-President of the Board
of Trade might proceed with regard to Rail-
way Bills as
.they did with regard to public
bills. That would he the best course to pursue if it
was physically possible that the buisiness of the
Railway Department could be got through in that
manner. But the organ of the Board of Trade
Parliamentyocthoemrmehrlcoiaulseandoffinancial
inea
had many such matters to attend to. He had
important matters con-
nected and colonial policies.
itno atthtaetnd or
rto tmhean
ommeanntythe circumstances of the rail-
Aautretshle
pwrae•nistdehnt theirm foreign to
nwn'adyivdidepedarmtminendt and were
tisiunceh
ofthtahtostehewyhdoeNtnvearnedeeadlltehde
upon to conduct the affairs of that department.
Therefore, although
the institution of a novel mode of
proceeding was in itself disadvantageous, yet
the Government were absolutely driven upon
it, because the usual machinery of Parliamen-
tary representation would have been totally in-
adequate to the purpose. It was absolutely
necessary, with regard to such important matters as
railways, to take some means of assuring the House
and the country, that there had been, according to
itnhveesotpigpootritounnitoifesthpoosfsaeessts; and he did not think ited, a patient and laborious
possible for any gentleman who heard him to ima-
gine that such au assurance could have been given
in.:a speech of the Board of Trade, and to an
audience similar to that which usually decided
upon private Bills.—(Hear.) Although the plan
adopted was very far from being theoretically perfect,
and although, as must always be the case where such
whole,inted 4uutld a course of proceeding
which, be attended with so
great conflicting interests were at stake, great dis-
satisfaction prevailed, yet it was remarkable that no
gentleman
o n hadthe pointed
few disadvantages. It had been objected to one of
these gentlemen that he had been private secretary to
the Secretary of State for the Home Depart-
ment. Well, he did not himself see that
that was in the nature of a disqualification, or
in the nature of proof or presumption .that this gen-
tleman was" unfit for his position. Why, what
changes they constantly saw taking place ? Who
censured the appointment of the gentleman who was
lately private secretary to Lord Haddington, now the
Secretary to the Admiralty?—(Hear, hear.) Other
gentlemen who had been private secretaries had been
afterwards made Secretaries of State; and he really
could not see that the post of a member of the Railway
Board was at all more important. He believed
that the word " clerk" had been applied to those
gentlemen. It had been said that the gentlemen who
dealt with these vast interests were persons scarcely
higher in station than clerks. Now it was impossible
to use a word more ambiguous than the word
" clerk." A " clerk" might mean one ss ho was en-
gaged in the discharge of mechanical duties—on the
other hand it was frequently applied to a per-
son in a public office who discharged duties
sequiring very high and delicate discretion.
Now, the position of the Board of Trade was this_
the President or Vice-President of that Board acted
as the head of it; and it did some time happen that
there were only four or five of them acting at a time;
but they were usually assisted in these proceedings
by those of the councils of those of their body, who
was most competent to give them advice upon railway
business. Some of them engaged in railways, and others
who, though net so engaged, were most conversant
with that business, took no part in the proceedings of
the Board; but the reason they were connected with
it was, because the object of the Government was to
select those who, from their position and education
were best qualified to hold such a position. As to
the gentleman who was placed at the head of
the Board of Trade—he stood in the situation of a
responsible and Parliamentary efficer, and was
answerable for those acts of his that had been called
in question. Mention had been made of the reports
of the Board of Trade as emanating from only three
or four members of the Board. Now, he could no#

say that because- a. report— did emanate from only
that number it should be called a report of only
three or four, no more than should a report from a
Committee of that Huse be called a report of
three members or one member.—(Laughter.) But

_
the reports of the Board of Trade were now be-
fore the House as their reports from that department.
and he would contend for it that they should ae held
as the deliberate and formal reports of that body.—
(Hear.) He could say, that while he was connected
with that Board he exercised his best abilities to give
satisfaction ; and he would now say, that if he were
still connected with it he would defend its acts on the
floor of that House; and connected with it now or
not, he would still be ready to defend them while he
was connected with the Board—(Hear, hear)—and
he felt assured that those reports had, as they ought
to have, the confidence of the majority of this House.
—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. BERNAL had listened with great atten-
tion to the Hon. and Learned Member opposite
in his defence of his conduct while he was in
office, as a member of the Board of Trade, and
he (Mr. B.) was glad to hear him say he would be