The Sun.
London, England, 1845-06-05 00:00:00

IMPERIAL. PARLIAMEI4II.
HOUSE OF LOR OS, June 4.
Their Lordships met at Five o'clock.
Petitions were presented against the grant to Ma,nooth by
the Marquis of Downshire, Lord Hatherton, Lord -Clancarty,
the Bishop of St. David's, Lord Hill, Lord Ken} on, and the
Bishop of Gloucester.
The Earl or FI'l•Z WILLIAM presented a petition from
Lord Harborough complaining, of some of the clauses of the
Syston and Peterborough Railway, which provided that the
railway should pass through his park.
Lord BROUGHAM_ agreed that the hardship upon the
_ .

'oble Earl who complained amounted almost to a fraud.
After an observation from a Noble Lord,
Lord BROUGHAM said, that as a general rule that was all
•ry well, tut there might be particular cases of outrage on
private property which might snerit particular notice.
MAYNOOTH.
The Bishop of NORWICH presented several petitions from
congregations of Dissenters in his diocese in favor of the grant.
THE BISHOP OF CASHEL'S CHARGE.
The Bishop of CASHEL wished to say a few words
respecting the observations made last night in their Lordships'
Houle by a Noble Marquis (the Marquis of Normanby) upon
a charge which he had delivered at Lismore. He had thought
at the time that what he was represented to have sail
could form no part of his charge, and now he was able to
give it a most positive contradietioe. He had succeeded in
getting two copiei of that charge in London instead of, as he
feared, being obliged to send to Ireland for them. One he
had placed in the hands of the Noble Duke behind him and the
other he begged to lay on the table of the House. He could
say that the pass,)ge which had been read was not only not a
perversion of his charge, but that it was a complete and entire
fabrication. As he intended to re-publish that charge, he
should wish to have a copy of what was said to be his charge,
in order to give it with the charge itself, and his own defence.
He hoped the Noble Marquis would have no objection to
state on what authority he had made the accusation ; for in
these stormy times, when no man's character was safe, it was
some protection to know from what quarter he was assailed.
The Marquis of NORNIANBY regretted that he had not
received, according to the Right Reverend Prelate's pro-
mise, an authenticated copy of the charge. But he had
no objection to state that the report, from which he last
night read an extract, was furnished to him by Dr. Fogarty,
the vicar-general and parish priest of Lismore—a man
of the highest character in the Roman Catholic priesthood.
He believed there was no person who knew Dr. Fogarty but
would speak in the highest terms of his moral character. He
thought that it was due to the Right Reverend Prelate
to give him the earliest opportunity of contradicting that
letter, and when he perused it he would see that Dr.
Fogarty had endeavoured to procure a copy of the charge
but was unable to do so. It had been generally reported that
the Right Reverend Prelate had given utterance to such
pernicious doctrines as exclusive intercourse, and he
considered it much to be regretted, and was a great
loss that the Right Reverend Prelate had not given
an extensive circulation to the charge which he had really de-
livered, and which he now laid on the table of the House. He
felt it unnecessary to say more. Hi was sure their Lordships
would acquit him of any intention to affix any unjust stigma
upon the character of the Righ• Rev. Prelate. He would ask
him, however, was the charge which he delivered an extem-
pore charge ?
The Bishop of CASHEL—It was not an extempore charge;
it was a written charge, and the copy on their Lordships' table
was printed from that written charge.
The Marquis of NORMANBY—The reason why he asked
the question was, that he might set the matter for ever at rest.
When he had asked the Right Rev. Prelate last evening whe-
ther the charge he delivered was the same as the printed one
published afterwards, he had said that it was so as nearly as
possible.
The Duke of WELLINGTON observed that the Right
Rev. Prelate having done him the honour of putting the charge
into his hands a teas hours ago, he considered it his duty to
affirm that it did not contain one word on the point al-
luded to by the Noble Marquis opposite. It was a regular
ecclesiastical charge, such as a person in the situation of the Right
Reverend Prelate ought to have delivered. There was not one
word of. unkindness, nor one word calculated to wound the
feelings of any man, of any belief whatever. No one could
read it without satisfaction, nor without entertaining respect
for the person who compesed it. For himself, he could only say
that he had derived great and sincere pleasure from its perusal.
Lord CAMPBELL, notwithstanding the denial of the Rev.
Prelate, the qualification of the Noble Marquis, and the testi-
mony of the Noble Duke, must say, that on casting his eye over
the document in dispute, he could not wonder at the mistake.
The Right Rev. Prelate had adopted the language of another
eminent divine, who had styled Popery as the master-piece
of Satan. With such a strong and unequivocal expression he did
not wonder that the charge had met with the interpretation
so naturally put upon it, yet so loudly complained of.
The Bishop of CASHEL—I said that some one had so said.
—( Hear, hear.) Whatever I said was against Tractarianism
of the present day.
SMALL DEBTS' BILL.
The Earl of HARD WICKE presented a petition in favour
of the Bill for the better security of small debts.
MAYNOOTH.
Earl RODEN presented petitions from various parts of Wales
against the grant to Maynooth.
Lord CH ARLEVILLE presented petitions from Helstone,
in Cornwall, against the grant.
Lord DENMAN presented a petition to the same effect.
Lord BROUGHAM presented a similar petition.
ADJOURNED DEBATE.

The Earl of CLANCA RTY, in resuming the adjourned,
debate, said he thought it was a sufficient apology for his hav-
ing moved the adjournment, that only two in-
dividuals were suffered on the preceding evening to
address the House in support of the amendment
moved by his Noble Friend ; but, independently of this fact, not
one single Irish Member had yet had an opportunity of ad-
dressing their Lordships. He thought the admissions
made by the Noble bird who closed the debate last
night, on the subject of the Roman Catholic Church,
were strictly in favour of the amendment, and the
Noble Lord was acting rather incensisti-ntly in opposing it.
It would be a consideration fcr her Majesty's Ministers how. far
they intended to carry out the principle of the proposed
Bill.—( Hear.) The Noble Earl had asked if there were
151 benefices without a single Protestant in them. It appeared
there were 10 with no Protestants in them, and 42 with 10 or
less. In 24 there was no provision for them at all. He spoke
of the saving truths of the Roman Cathode Church, and he
spoke of its approximatien to the Presbyterian Church.
He (Lord Clancarty) could not agree with the Noble Earl in
the explanation he had given of the proposed Bill. He thought.
the Scottish Church was a pure church, and were he in Scot
land, he would willinglingly go and worship with the pro-
fessors of the Presbyterian faith ; but if, on the contrary,
he were in a Roman Catholic country. he should feel that he
o‘
could not conscientiously bow the knee before an image,
m eal fr
I who followed
in
i prayer
on
yesterday'sN. irgi n . (
debate,H ear.
Nrrith the address
Noblehe
.would most cordially agree with his sound and •Protestan•
feeling. In every sentiment that had fallen from him, with
the exception of his observations on the Act of 1829 be
would cheerfully coincide. He saw nothing in the emancipa-
tion of the Roman Catholics that could argue danger to the
Protestant Church. It had not been argued that the Roman
Catholics in Parliament supported any measure in opposition to
the interest of the Established Church. They took oaths to
bind them in respect to the interest of the Church, and they
observed them with the strictest regard. He could say that
many of his tried and most consistent friends in Ireland were
Roman Catholics, and he always found them most desirous of
acting for the general good of the country. He mixed with
them at meetings of the boards of guardians and elsewhere, and
he invariably found them anxious to do everything in their
power to forward the interests of Ireland. He would say a
few words in reference to what fell from the Noble Marquis on
the other side of the House, who spoke last night. That
Noble Marquis had brought a charge against a Right Hoa.
Prelate ; but it was a great relief to hes (Lord Clancarty ) that
the reply of that Right Rev. Prelate had been most satisfac-
tory. The Noble Marquis had withdrawn his charge, but he
k Lord Clancarty) would have been better satisfied if he
had done it in a more unreserved manner, and if he had given
the Right Rev. Prelate notice of the charge he intended to
bring forward. There was a great distinction to be drawn be•
tweet, the course which the Noble Duke had adopted towards
the Right Rev. Prelate, and the course taken by the Noble
and Learned Lord opposite, in reading the garbled extracts
which he had done. Though he could not look upon the Go-
vernment of the Noble Marquis with so much respect as he de-
sired to show, yet he felt deeply obliged to him for his admi-
rable Church appointments, as was evident in the app intment
of Dr. Ponsonby. He would now allude to what had
fallen from the Most Rev. Prelate the Archbishop of
Dublin. He said that there appeared to be no distinction
between favour and endowment, and persecution and intole-
rance. By the solemn promise which he had given he had
engaged to drive away all error, and sooner than break his
faith with this promise, he would resign his sacred profession
and retire to a humble sphere. The real question was, whe-
ther the Roman Catholic was to be encouraged and made a
friend of, or whether he was to be regarde i as an enemy ?
There could be no denial of the claims of the Roman Catholic
people of Ireland to the consideration of her Majesty's Go.
vernment. But he did not think that the Government was
under any obligation to uphold what the Noble Lord opposite
( Lord Beaumont) called the" immutability" of Roman Catholic
doctrine. His Noble Friend, he thought, had made a sufficient
ease to justify an inquiry orexamination into the tenetstaught at
Maynooth, and what bad fallen from a Noble Earl (Lord
Hardw lac) with reference to Dr. Eaton only showed the necessity
for the amendment of his Noble Friend receiving the utmost
consideration of the House. He certainly could not possibly
agree to this measure, because it was in direct opposition to the
oath he had made on first taking his seat amongst their Lord-
ships. He had sworn to sanction no measure which should
give power to any foreign Prince, anti yet he was now called
upon to sanction an institution under the authority of the head
of the Roman Catholic Church. There was a very strong
feeling abroad on this question, for it was supposed out of doors
that the Members of that House were bound by something
more than their oaths. He, for one, would say he always held
that the Members of the Legislature were bound by cer-
tain principles of legislation by which they . were bound
not to recognise the papal authority in any way in this realm.
He had no doubt that their Lordships attached paramount im-
portance to their oath of allegiance, and it was because he
knew that fact he had deemed it his du'y to call their attention
to this particular point. He would not trespass much further
on their Lordships' attention, but he did hope that before their
Lordships should make any hasty legislation on this important
subject, they would consider well the points to which he had
called the attention of their Lordships. He would never con-
sent to establish such a college for the educatien of Roman
Catholics, as it would be interfering with her Majesty's right
of supremacy over the ecclesiastical seminaries within the
kingdom, and, in that respect, would be highly unconstitutional.
Great stress had been laid on the fact that the religion of
Maynooth had received the sanction and support of successive
Governments. It was said that Mr. Pitt had founded May-
nooth, and that Mr. Percival had subsequently supported it.
For his own part he could not justify an act that was in itself un-
justifiable, and in his opinion no act could be justified otherwise
than on its own intrinsic merits. It was an Act for the endow-
ment of a college for the education of Roman Catholics, and
at the time it was considered objectionable that Roman Ca-
tholics should be obliged to resort to
Chef Continent for their
education, when they might, by
that advantage nearer an c Parliam.ent, obtain
home, and in that respect it was con-
sidered a fair enactment ; and in 1795, and the three follow-
ing years, money was awarded for the purpose of establishing
acollege, but it was kept under the power and control of
the State. The Noble Earl had referred to the Charitable
Bequest Act of last session, and he had some foundation for
his objections, for it conferred upon Maynooth a corporate
character for enjoying the endowments bestowed upon it, and
on that principle was recognised the Roman Catholic church
in Ireland, as subject only to the Pope's domination and con-
trol ; but that Act did not so positively acknowledge the Ro-
man Catholic church as the present proposed Act did. He
would put it to the Noble Lord chether the present measure
was not calculated to encourage the Roman Catholic religion ?
He would contend that no expediency could justify this mea-
sure for religious education in Ireland. If it was intended
that such an Act should pass, let the oath of supremacy be at
once abolished, and then might the policy now proposed by her
Majesty's Ministers be proceeded with. He felt it his duty to
give his support to the motion of the Noble Earl in the inquiries
he had suggested should be made, and it would become Noble
Lords to consider well before they gave their assent to the
Bill before them. The principles of the Bill were to teach
doctrines that were damnable to their recipients, and highly
objectionable to the country, and which were opposed to the