The Sun.
London, England, 1842-04-19 00:00:00

TURNPIKE ROADS BILL.

Mr. GRIMSDITCH would suggest to the Hon. Gentleman
below him the propriety of postponing the second reading of
the Turnpike Roads Bill, in order to give the parties interested
time to become i.equainted with its provisions.
Mr. M. SUTTON was sorry he could not accede to the sug-
gestion of his lion. Friend.
THE INCOME TAX.

Sir ROBERT PEEL brouguht in the Incomes tax Bill.
The Order of the Day having been moved that the Bill
should be read a first time,
Lord J. RUSSELL and Mr. R. WAsow rose together to ad-
dress the House. The latter lion. Member was proceeding to
say that he wished to bring a case relating to the liberty of the
subject under the notice of the House, when he was 'lnterrupted
by cries of " Order."
Mr. WALLACE also attempted to address the House, when
The SPEAKER interfered and • said, that when an lion.
Member brought forward a Bill from the bar of the House
he did so in obedience to the order of the House; and no other
motion could be introduced after it had been snored that such
a 13:11 be taken into their consideration. The Noble Lord, the
Member for London, was, therefore, in possession of the House.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL then rose, and said that he
wished to speak to the question then before the Hour.
The House would perfectly well remember that on the question
of their approbation or d:sapprobation of the Income-tax, al-
though there had been divisions if the Committee, and divi-
sions of the House, there had been no division of. the House
upon the main question. From some misunderstanding that. took
place in the Committee of Ways and Means, the resolution
passed without any division of the louse. Afterwards, when
the Report was laud upon the table, he proposed to the House,
not simply a negative to the proposal ot an Income-tax, but he
proposed a resolution containing 'a general outline of the plan
which he thought ought to be pursued —( Hear, hear. )
Therefore the s4isestion which the House had now
to - decide, and in which many Honourable Members
consider they could not concur with him without approving of
what he had proposed on a former oeeasion, was, whether the
Right Hon. Gentleman's proposal should be accepted, or whe-
ther some other alteration should be approved of by the House.
After that division, it being very late at night, and the House
being fatigued with the several discussions, and the Right lion.
Baronet intimating that he meant on this day to move the first
reading of the Bill, he (Lord John Russell) thought it more
convenient not to take a division then. He therefore came simply
to this question to oppose it as though it were_ a question for leave
to bring in a Bill, to which Bill his had an insuperable ob-
jection. He would not attempt then, having already
troubled the House at length upon the question of the
resolut:on3 he had had the honour to propose—he would not
attempt again to go over the general arguments agains• the'
proposition. But he must say, that he looked at the conclusion
of the debates of last week, and he considered that the argu-
ments then used against this proposition had been unanswered
by the Right Hon. Gentleman and his colleagues. The general
arguments which he (Lord J. Russell) had attempted to eats-
bush, in which several of his Hon. Friends had followed him,
that this tax ought not to be imposed, except in times of ex-
treme necessity, and that that case of extreme necessity
had not arisen ; that there were no such circumstances
in the general state of the country which justified
such a step, and that the financial (facilities of the
country were such, that much less objectionable measures
might have been adopted. When he (Lord J. Russell) 'spoke
the other evening, he found that the general course of argu-
ment was not only the course of argument which the Members
with whom he had generally the hap,yiness to agree used, but they
were the arguments which were stated very forcibly some years
ago by the Right Hon. Gentleman himself, now the organ of
the present Government, against imposing such a tax. He was
not aware of the arguments at the time last week, but if he
had been aware he did not think he could Lave bet ter tallied
his own with that Right Hon. Gentleman's. He would
read those arguments to the House made ose of by the Right
Hon. Gentleman in 1833 upon this subject, in speaking against
Lied Althorp, then Chancellor of the Exchequer. He then
said nothing could justify the Noble Lord in proposing an income
and property tax but a case of extreme necessity —( Cheers)
in subjecting the people of this country, in a time of peace,
seeing that an inquisitorial process must be resorted t0...._
(Loud cheer.) He must have made that declaration in a pro-
phetic mood, and he then eontempla.tedhi3 proposition of 18,12.
Therefore, when he stated the other oh:eetions that were made
to the tax, he did tot think it was very justly oibtsersevslrtitililsintigt
wh eve
rything
the only from their disposition to find fault
the present Government did, that they ventured to give their
opposition to a proposal so harmless and unobjectionable
'as that for an income-tax—( Hear, hear.) The Right lion.
Gentleman went on to say, ‘‘ such a tax was a great resource in
time of war, and he was therefore unwilling to establish sit h an
inquisition, as it would be accompanied with as
odi,zm - again*, it thats • - wuaisks". 'Omsk?' . it almost im-
prossible to resort to it in a time of extreme necessity."
was the objection which he (Lord J. Russell) had ven-
tuht rearl to repeat in the name of the Right Hon. Gentleman. He
had not ventured to make it in such strong language, or tp ,
say that it would make it imp ,ssible to resort to it in case
of necessity, but that should it be necessary to
resort to it in such a time of need, it would give the people such
a distaste to the tax, and it would become so very unpopular,
that it would be a great bar in the way of any Government
who might wish to establish it in a time of great peril.
One of the arguments which had been stated in favour of this
tax, and upon which the Right Hon. Gentleman relied for
its popularity, was, that it would only affect persons of
incomes: above one hundred and fifty pounds a year ;
and, in speaking of the petitions against the tax,
he almost invited the poorer classes to petition in favour (
of it, in order to put down the petitions of those who felt •
themselves aggrieved by its being imposed on them. He
should ' say, that that invitation was quite unjustifiable,
because the persons immediately and direetiy affected by thin tax
were as much objects of the consideration of the House, being
professional men, clergymen, and surgeons, persons who were .

. . . .
s!rugehrig most with as much difficulty as the common labourer'
to maintain their families in that decent respectability whichte-
cleac those pints, ssed of education, and accustomed to the
comforts of life. But he had also stated than though
this tax would not directly affect the labouring class, it
indirectly, by diminishit!g the means of employment.
Right Hon. Gentlemen had expressed the same sentiment to
1'33, vet new they were told that it must be a P°Pu,laar,
tax, by taking advantage of the p -ejudico
might arise that it solely affected the rich. that
might depend on it it would affect all elassses of labourers,
and that the opinion of the Right Honourable Baronet
in 1b:33 would turn out to be a sound one. There
i
was another question with respect to the tax, and of %%hie!. •
very little notice had been taken in the course 0
that debate, but upon which both Lord Althorp. 354 tbe
Right Hon. Gentleman had expressed their opinion in
1833, lie meant that portion of it which related to
Ireland. He was very glad that Ireland w 35
to be exen pted from the tax. He thought it an inquisitorial:,
an oppressive and unjust tax, and he was very gla
that one portion of the United Kingdom was to be
exempt from it.—( Hear, hear.) But he could rut
understand why, if it was not desirable to ha"
an Income-tax in Ireland, it was desirable to have
taxes upon stamps anti upon articles of consumption,
and to pursue the: e the reverse course to that which was
sued in England.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") Why,
if
these principles of taxation were right, why not apply
them to Ireland as well as to England? If their
plan wi.h respect to Ireland was right, why would not the
plan be as good in England and in Scotland? It was said ,
machinery was wanting, but the Right Hon. Baronet propose"
to lay a tax upon the landed property of absentees, and there • .
meat be sonic machinery to Lind out what was the ineCgue
arising from that property. The returns under the rnbr..
law Act were to he applied to that purpose, but if app ied ,r
that purpose they might also be applied to a still greater
extent. It was clear, therefore, that that was 110!at
sufficient reason for exempting Ireland from the tax. But s,'"
said the Right Hon. Gentleman in 1833, with regard to
tax? The [tight Hon. Gentleman said "he wished to see Ireland
favoured as much as possible, •but to impose a properlY,ltisa
upon England and Scotland, and to exempt Irelan
from its operation would be the height of injost'ce;
(Hear, hear, and laughter, from the Opposition.) 10wel'i
unpopular that opinion might be, he could not but declare tits
he thought it wourd be exceedipgly unjust."

Sir It. PEEL—Go on. -
Lord J. RUSSELL said he had not the means of doing °J.-;
he had thought that declaration sufEcient.—( Hear, he
eat
Ile could quite understand that what was inexpeaie
in 1833, might, through a change of eircumstances,becollei
expedient in 1842, but how that which was unjust in 1833 °lt, .
become just in 1842, quite exceeded his comprolionsio.l,4
If there were passages in the Right Hon. Gentle :hi
speech in which having proved that the exemption w ,ly
be unjust ; he proved that it would be exce'du„';te
just, it was not in his ( Lord John Russell's) power to' 41;01.
those passages. One of She Right lion. Gentlernerl' `t
leagues had declared, that he could dress up a statoanbte
to that House—(Laughter)—and it was very poslhat
therefore, that he had made a speech, proving both t.)
it would be unjust, and that it won'd be just.—(Laughleot
The speech of the Right Honourable Gentleman on lets
occasion contained the pith and substance of all the argton'ti",t
which had been urged against the tax in the course of this
debate, and he had felt great satisfaction in finding that b
e
s'
own objections were those enlertaincol by the lionourau,g
Gentleman in • 1833 s He had heard many atteturtif
made by Honourable Members in the course
the
that debate to jetint in dark colours the prosperity c'fief
country and to r. present her means of meeting her eue'id
in the most unfavourable light. These tepreeentation'i .vil
naturally awakened the indignation of his Right lien. Fritot
the Member for Portsmouth, and he shared with him la 'its
feeling. Now, let them look at those portions of the etaPer,l
to which they were accustomed to look when taking a ge1.1.0.
survey of its affairs. There was the United Kingdom of Vvith
• land, Scotland, and Ireland in a state of ti anquillity. , to
• respect to our foreign possessions, reference had been inaucto
Canada. For some years there had been a popular Aesen'aea ,
existing in that country. That Assembly had made a iletno.
which implied a total independence of this country. The crest
sequence was that there had been an infraction of the gaols
constitutional principles that the revenue raised in C 3,00
should be applied f.r particular and specified purposes. ' soh
events had extended from 1822 to 1837. In the Parboil:el
as now c •nstituted, he believed a very considerable inaiZeie
were well affected to the Crown and the kritish empire!
rope,
hints had been thrown out of the danger of war in Eurli
but when did a Minister of the Crown propose a tax Oa hire
a contingency? With respect to the melancholy reverse Post,
Lad been experienced iu India, it had been clearly show';
..able
viewed in a financial point of view rnerely, that dean use
calamity did not require the impo‘ition of an oppressive, 'lop
unequal, and inquisitorial tax upon the people of this eonlverls
• Then, much was made of the state of oar relations
~ to
China ; and really ore member of the Cabinet, alltelititir d
our dangers with respect to China, spoke of the Emil- 0
i China as if he had been the Emperor Napoleon, atility 0
if the fleet of junks, at Canton, had been the gut osea
Boulogne. (Cries of " Hear, hear.") lie had yea'
language upon the subject, which no Alinisser would heletreel
t tired to use in the face of the might) dangers which threat) telt
the couatry in 1804 and 1805. Now he (Lord J. Heist/00
no apprehension with respect to the war in China. which
a war, it should he remembered, the expenses of d oe•
wore confined to the country in which it was carried
If they had a war with any of the Powers of Europe or al to
United States of America, they would find it teesneee,!ar
strengthen their colonial possessions, and they would see
care that there should be no point either by t se'
or land, at which their interests would be endangered. 13530
body would apprehend that the Chinese would capture slal,o
or would attack Gibraltar, or do any of those things met.
the Great Powers of Europe might be expected to at"-, of
They had, besides, this alternative, that if the beleel to
China should refuse to conclude a treaty, an upon
put an end •to hostilities, they might seize
csof
some convenient sea-port in his dominions, asetotebt
on still their commerce with the Chinese. They flu
hold either Carona or Chusan, and they would then be endeee
to carry on heir trade more securely than they 1 ci e ies
during past years, when their Superintendent had beet/ (ll'
salted and the safety of their commerce constootc/hitie
dangered by the hostility of the Government "f ey the
lint supposing that their expenses should be increastda pfe
Chinese war half a million a-year—suppose they thatu Ore
to pay the who:e expenses of that war—and suppo'e ,n'
shouid continue fur B:me years, still that would be two, estoe
for the imposition of an Income-tax.—(Cheers.) Wilt, del
to the second part of the subject, on which, no dou ealeee;
would all, hereafter, have frequent opportunities of oPv,ints,lJ
he meant that part of the Government proposition rela's:i pro'.
the tariff. lie had not any objection to the gene; Pro
cintes on which those alterations had been proeosetY ts
having, as a Minister of the Crown, advi ed her sli'ses,l°"
make that Speech with which she had opened the lotierresiti
of Pediment, in which, after stating the ,le re:
' that existed for raising the amount of the. lits.eleti4;
venue, her Majesty directed Parliament to consider me Is
revenue could not be raised in the manner least burdea'd 010
the people, by a reconsideratten of the import duties, an ()relit;
duties on corn,--after having, as a Minister of the t elee.,
advised her Majesty to deliver that speech, he couhl.nt° rtioss
to the principles on which it hail been proposed,onatleatet.
the present changes. But if the Honourable „,'-', ritsalf),
opposite had, before the dissolution of the last t"; to ; to
made known the principles on which they interolieutedeilite
if they had last i year stated the principles they • ' woolitio,
pursue, he thought the proposal of those changer ote° It
have produced the panic which he now understood ears.)
many parte of the country on the subject.---(C 9taidoto
woula have been pet fectly possible for them to hav the ,op
year, ailer saying that they had no confidence Ittociplesb,e
Government, teat, with regsrd to the general Pet to
bpi
I
which the commerce of the country 04.;00 tee
for the future, regulated, they were of (Wingert:to]
1 there were many duties payable on the 1 a noseete
of foreign commodities which ought to be reduced t° wirier.
I amount, and that in many instances in their opjui:To 0; thif
ciple of protection had been carried to too great js oi.erte
:If they had done so, the people and the fitrruet ello both
I country, who looked for plain dealing on tiltt test i, of
would have understood what was meant; and seeit'effoo,,,re
of the great parties of this country, and that bowooltla'tee
Parliament, were agreed upon this principle, they seem
1 the
have had time to consider, and would have conenseett °roe/
proposal, whether it had been trom one Gosern'o- ye that
other. But they seemed to him, even now'oyid thieg,
had adopted this principle to hesitate in onli , sel"
which it seemed to him to be thed pro).ettre•
that could be said on the subject, and which lie ha roes'enl'coultl
from the first moment, that it might produce i'',oitehe 04
i injui y, and loss to some extent, to those interests a 016/.
be affected; but that that loss would be repaid, anio routs„„ t'
than repaid, by the future general prosperity of t tentolvessel
(Cheers. ) But they did not dothe were ov.....there 0,4
ing, when speaking of the agricultural pratectiOd been
sfooes
two things which they said, and which ha the siii, 01
by the Right. Honourable the Secretary 01. ertio,_ the
Department—that the price of the variou' said uli„,elJ
consumption would be reduced, but, as had bloneueer 10
Noble Lord the Secretary of Ireland, that the, P„ehteqt,, lie
not find any reduction in their produce.—("-(La or time
wish was, that if they took sound principles theY part' i etio;ti
prepared to avow them. With respect to foal 0.
_,,fess
tariff, he was quite ready to sunehr" be e"';aipor-
cheers.) But there was one thing which 00 thitee ill
required explanation. There was a heavy 0,..a steelti",te'ontr'
tation of foreign copper, but they did not forllnto thin. aft!~
consequence of which was that they introduee".„ol tho'fereee
copper used for the purpose of smelting, !tic, io, th,en'''
wards that copper was sold at a lower l' 1 at n:old 'l'
countries than copper could be olotaineattl woo .t. c/
Two years ago copper went from this countrye, for tile,' ; lint
per cent. chewier than it could be parches "of the re ogee
stockyards. 'hat was a pgoof of the abstirdottlandon t" wary,
if they proposed to change it, they must els a_OleAtrt'etiee 7,
meat they stood by in the case of suere.• the hear.
In the present case they were fuvourrote that,
~e 0 the
; of eette' rtieo,
Cuba, mines worked by slaves.--(Cri" Os ' bees le
','hey refined to change when the questiore, the et et.e,ea ore ,
consumers of sugar and their own slaves it,,,.,,0 pro I.'. tee*.
the
ed tehaesemoi
and they abandoned it when it was between :It, beet
,l,e;nee re
.would not on'Yaked was ' _4o'
not stand by the argument in the case of Ingaatter eanrir thel
details, hut extend the principle. AII heoto8501„, rteknoiwoontev
to be just. This was not the moment
fne:heoftaCrioffr,ntwhaelyl. It might be re,r. ii it,
ori.tio
should aet on the principles they had th
to inipose atitto svel '
tax, for all classes were divided as tree
_ads of exesersense
tie:
ready to propose some especial g t uitrshpatringeriPeal-e:."itp,eti:):lll?,!-I
modification, while there was trn.len to PaYvinced oLu;
peril or necessity which would lead tie „as CI
_., his o°oo
evasion, from a sense of patriotism,: t 1,1 e found, I,' take
lila 91.--dif
means of raising the revenue no4,u,stust, lie en_ad that ,
propositions having been decided else Bill he "
ee t 01,
oilier course than to move that the
slat'eurn--1140
six months. Ah d felt " • the "ts
lben°,,ght in in c() of the 04
himSirtolt tialltEeEtLhesaila'tlttiener
reading of the Bill, which he had
er,,,dareeinent
neooo _
Noble Lord 01 resisting
400:10:
the decision of that. House. The
,"l, all'a ornetoe:eb
Lord bad been a personal
aPll•toguntleci on a , sl_d pia s,
herniae:it address, to hinvelf,,ecit tho Noblell-mespreesileot
had made in the year 1833, in %es.
Tihade was fou
go
li
al d
lie would address himself to the a,r,fs. jos:. the it-14°5Y ,10.10
Lord had thus derived from him
..a.a.,.. was, of course,: 0,0,010
Income-tax at the preseut per,i:edre ems
ado to the.o eeeees
important, when appeals
,r,
_sitie„, to take in ,
'1" . • ets deev .1
of any one in support of 21
the
which s , .
hist.le Noble°u argumentsLi,rdhad e: tint
r::01:Inr:t the ri,e°,inbog:4l)):l a ;Ili tto'enn. Asre'arel;lo:
• °iet: then
to
had stated, in the year 163 e,
would ask. what wasva a 10,
the circumstance tinder
,'P neli°011•7;0 the 1e:94; ti'lhj;
of an Income-tax; but, he,
ie., Them was It:cella
~,)
financial position of the costitely s
~
~,,, ch
Cries of "Hear, eitue`
the Exchequer, of 1,00,00
of revenue over expert _ a top
'fhat was the estimated
excesslta ceesiderable reduct•ioe",, .
la,
surplus, according tooth e... ,
Lord Althorp then propos '' 1,000,00a of rev ueiolv't
„......_7ent et the -_- gar,
which would lead to a less of ,
von_ .
sc..
be a
net
00
•as the financia s • dneye,‘
of about 516,0001.
That
" I been called upon to, tn.rertwa't
when he (Sir It.
Peel)
had
had been roauln,-10,,,, 01
opinion upon the subject.
h i se-tax, to reduce the vri
0,3020_
the malt •tax, to reduce the co. ,
Lord Althorp calculated that then(
„rtv-tax by seaY 'a, It;
mutation for the remission of
41.
elt :17.; the inpostbio ha
of
and it 171 as proposed to impose_ at.,pero.ipi...
and windo":iettaott, f,e,
(Sir It. Peel) had decidedly
and moment
flit,
I iellate of the rse
tax, and the window-tax ; a
property-tax as a coannutationrdi liajfir
atthetrealli;ctrei; t ot

nptiOD,
s put"-
hyt if
aPPII
their
of the
aid the,
°pose"
d. there
',come
poor-
ied for
voter
not
what
to 111.11
Ireland
riy;.to
Ireland
usuce•
owever
re that