The Sun.
London, England, 1820-05-16 00:00:00

.„ . ,
at'n the rionse, ailopting the Repast at
fire Cerntflissioners. to alter the constitution ot
the Court of Exchetrter in Scotland by taking
'away one of its Judges. He coold not, without
some previous inquiry, consent to act on the re-
commendation ot the Commissioaers in opposi-
tion to the decision of the {edges in Scotland, to
whom time question had been submitted. lie could
assure the Right Hon, Baronet, that if 'he sup-
posed-that Government were not disposed to fol-
low up the plans of the Commissioners for effect-
ing reforms, where these wei;e practicable, with
Zeal and activity, he was quite wroug. It was
common for the Gentlemen opposite, especially in
a new Parliament, to labour to make it believed
that all was virtue on their side of the House,
While every thing that was hostile to it appeared
ton the other. He believed that both sides of the
Houk were ankious to promote the real welfare
of the country, and the attempt alluded to he
conceived to be made tinder the impression that
it would have an effect on Gentlemen who had
not much Parliamentary experience. lie would
say, that histoty proved that impure motives had
as often been firund among the opponents of Mi-
nisters; as among those who had the functions of
a GovernMetit to discharge. To his mind thear-
gument of the Learned Lord was perfec:ly sat is. facto! y, where he contended that the Commis-
*loners, though fitted to conduat the inquiry as-
signed to them, were not qualified to pronounce
On the constitution of the Court of Excheqoes.—
This Ire believed was the first time that ever :he
liouse had been Called on to affirm, not a report
from a Committee of their own body, but to de-
termine inertly on the day diction of tour Coin-.
Missioners out ot five, that tour Judges would do
as Well in one of the -Courts as fire. If compelled
(fide on the present motion to-hight, he
should certainly give it a tregstive. But he did
Prot feel stifficieoily informed on the subject to be
Satisfied with his own decision, and he bad no
Objection to put the business into a fair course
las inquiry. He would move the previous Tres-
ciao on the motion before the House ; but if
the Noble Lori; would move on a future day
a Committee to inquire into the subject,
151. e should offer no opposition to the motiow•—
v-(lear, hear !)—He had to remark, that the
opinion expressed by the Commissioners seemed
to have been given with great caution and doubt,
and. he knew no man more competent to form a
Properjudgment on the subject than the indivi-
dual who had dissented from the Report drawn up
by his brother Commissioners. He differed from
fire Noble Lord when he assumed, that b2.cause
One of the Judges had at times been absent, it
was clear that his presence was unnecessary. The
Suestioti Was not whether it could go on at all,
but whether it would go on so as they could wish
it to go on for all time. That great luminary,
Lord Mansfield, it was well known, had been ab-
sent for -a considerable time from Court s hen he
Presided in the King's Bench ; but was it
thence to be contended that the office of
hiet Justice ought to be made a sinecure ?
lie showed that the business of the Court of Ex-
chequer in Scotland differed materially from (bat
' of the Court of Exchequer in England ; and he
'k Was eoifident, that of all economies that was
'Mutt abhorrent to the common sense of the peo-
Ple which went to affect the Bench. The toes-
lion 'was not whether 20001. could be saved (not
That lie 'undervalued such a saving), but what
voulti'be' the best constittition for the Court of
l'secholquer in Scotland. For the Commissioners
be felf`great respect, but he could not prefer their
44thority to that of the tour Chit Judges in
Beotland. He was willing to meet the Noble
Lord,' and give him an opportunity of proving his
7'"e• lie was not prepared to say what be would
up witierespect'to the appointment in question,—
(leal' !)—The cheers that had just been heard
.lot surprize him. The Gentlemen opposite ~rare generally loud in proportion as theit. argu-
:ieut 'was weak. They were never so happy as
"en they got a qtresion which involved some
cacti sum as a tee„sand, pounds, for then they
:1141 say what they pleased, and might hope to
aTiry their point by clamour. in was, however,
,iattle too much to say that the distress corn-
et ined of among the people -could he materially
, 4retl ny :he decision of-the House on time pre-
-._ne, „notion. The Chief Baron of time -Contt of
t:ttl.reqUer in Scotland would onot have prosti-
4. treat name by approving of the appoint-;
duel
vt q reation, bad it not appeared to hios con-,
e to the better administration of-justice,—
,:,,Pflointriment was- the more desirable as Sir
,tu 'tray, having been Remembraneer to the
heu_r.itifOr nineteen or twenty years, was
tiltitnate-
al,,,caclsTknted with ell the details of its business,
.e.f
so 20001. per annum was- thoug:it an object
.. li'
fio:u treat importance, it might be something
*eyed of the appointment that 10001. was
Ito uyraktu Sir P Murray in
4,111 v . preference to
"`". r individual. The practice of inatituting
miens_
ovf, the Where an alteration was made in any
Tiolo. r, had been common in all former
cite
Then Lotd Hardwick was at the head
.t.ourt of• Chancery, the 'Reports of the
snnl`lr I":mssioners appointed to conduct such an
tre:o Y Were submitted to hint, and from him
usineetosled those volmninous decrees by which the
r • 01 that •Conrt had ever been regulated,
naafi
judgment 'Lord Sidmouth would have
lae caiilletilt be taken any course. but that which
the b
)1) rsued on the present occasion—ifavben
ee„e(k_iel oil of the Commissioners had been re-
by the
%o, I whole of the Law Authorities of
ie liratl withdrawn a part of the Con-
sine hung up the Court in a new and
I,llstesB,4tileo,,s,t":tes vei'th four Judges on the Bench
!r. Its apiniL":', The Commissioners had not, io
If"", fairly into the merits of the
11(Ige °0 inqnity it should appear that four
3 Were sufficient, he should have no ohicc-
-411 to
Iv.er, dinel(ll_ll' being dispensedvith. He how-
the I.") litlitk that it would be consistent
'
of the House to act on the die-
commissioners. He concluded by
question.
e:(1 11118"4-4ivprevious
retrial ked, it bad been complain-
L.ord. Ministers had been
that side of the House for not ma-
le:'-ong due •
it"
regard for econom So hel
etri torrid uos thi„k Y• P Inu
lams, l'Akii • that the did show a
ile bad watched their con-
tor for it,
malt 1,
Years) and did not believe that

• • • •,
economy -1-7i19 to be expected irom them;
that (the opposition) side Of the House it was
proposed, it wits immediately said that they were
going to overturn the State--;-why did they not
confine rhemselyes to something practical ? If
they called for a small practical Reform, the cry
then was, " 0 what a noise you make about no-
thing." The meaning of all this was, that Mini-
sters wished it to he Undersrood that they were
the best judges of what ought to be spent, as well
as of who should spend it.—(A laugh.)—Their
system was such, that they had no chance of
keeping their places, but by preserving their
patronage untouched, and thus circumstanced,
they could not afford to part wi,h the third part
of a 'fifth Baron of the Exchequer. They,
if an useless person was proposed to be removed,
immediately raised their voices against breaking
up an esteblishment, and the establishments thus
protected they considered a part of the Constitu-
tion of England. All that surprised him in the
present debate was, to find that the dexterity and
ability of the Noble Lord had not been impaired
by that state of health which bad lately kept him
from the House. It seemed to he the determina-
tion of Ministers that they should gest nothing by
the motion for the appointment of it COM!iiiSsion
which they had carried five years ago. The
Learned Lord, who was new to that House, must
be surprised at the conduct of the Noble Lord.
Tee Learned Lord had nor seen that inquiry was
wanting, and bad come down like a Man with the
articles of the Union, to contend that five (Ba-
tons of the Exchequer) was the good 'old Scotch
number—five was their watch-word, and five Ba-
rons they would have. After this he must have
been surprised when the Noble Lord turned round
upon him and said, " we will have an imp-4y."
The country Gentle Men were then told to beware
of those opposed to the Government, and to sup-
port Ministers. He would ask if they in their
experience had ever met with so dexterous A
joggle before ? He for his part was clearly of
opinion that no further inquiry was necessary.
It was rather odd, as five was the favourite :mas-
her, that the Noble Lord should in the present
instance appeal from five to tour—from the five
Commissioners to the four Judges. He was
of opinion that the Report ought to be adopt-
ed, and he thought no man could seriously say
that the Articles of Union could be a bar to
any economical arrangement that the circum-
stances of the times might make necessary.
It was the office of thm Eiviise to recommend
retrenchment to his Majesty's Ministers ; and
when they reitieri to t re it, it was time for them
to interfere. His urns coeeiction was, that it was
art act of patronage. 7.1 e (tit( not doubt that a
fitter person th.ln Sir Patrick Murray could not
be found. But under the circumstances of the
case, could any alan doubt that it was a down-
right, plain, ouequivocal job I—(Hear, hear !)---
At least they might have abstained front filling
up the situation till the inquiry bad been gone
into. We in Englimi, said the number of four
was the proper one—the number under which
we had prospered. There were but tour Barons
to the Court of Exchequeein England. lie did
:lot know where that equality of numbers which the
Noble Lord (Castlereagh) said must be. adopted,
was to be found. It was to 'defend the establish-
ment that this deed had been clone ; and it was
simply because that establishment. did exist,
that this practice was rerseverte!‘itr. What chance,
he asked, had they this Seseion of coming to any
conclusion in this matter Here was Sir P. Mur-
ray in possession in the first place. The House
bad to appoint its Committee ; and the necessary
witnesses iced to be brought up from Scotland.—
The fact was, that Government intended to give
the go-by to this question. The appointment
never would have taken place if Government durst
have refused it. But they thirst not. Sir I'.
Murray was backed by great interest—interest in
rotes in that House ; and lie had followed it up
with dexterity and gained his point. He so far
acquitted the Noble Lord •(Castlereagh), that he
did not believe he had ever been consulted about
the appointment. But once done, he had not the
power to interfere. The system must be pre-
served ; every one has supreme jurisdiction over
his own department. One Noble Lord says to
another, what right have you to interfere with
what passes in Scotland; another, what right have
you with 'the Admiralty; and again, what have
you to do with what happens in the 'Treasury ?
—That he believed to be the real history of the
transaction. The Noble Lord talked of their going
into istqeiry, but what did they want with inquiry?
They had beard the opinion of the Commissioners
on the subject ; if they thought the Commission-
ers entitled to credit, they would vote for the
motion of his Noble Friend. A late Chief Baron
lied see' that four were enough ; and against 401
opinion was only brought that of a Learned
Judge, who, before his removal to Scotland, was
an ornament to that House, the Chief Commis-
sioneriof the Jury Courts. He knew that worthy
character, from mere good nature, would acquiesce
in the wishes of his fellow colleagues. But it wes
to be remembered he was quite a new one, and
could not be an efficient judge in the matter.
Five for ever was echoed by all around him, and
lie was tempted to join its was not for the
dirty 10001. that they contended, but for' the
independency of the act. How crsuld the House
shut its eyes upon this appointment, made in its
vet-'y teeth ? With what disgust must the pen-
pie view the transaction. Here was a short
intelligible proposition. They saw they had to
pay Commissioners for the purpose of discover-
ing what retrenchments might safely be adopt.
ell, and in the instance where one was ex-
pressly pointed out by them, Government went
directly counter. All that he desired was that
Gentlemen would soberly consider of the question
before them, without any partiality on one ac-
count or another. If they thought that the ap-
pointment ought -to he done away with, they
would ;less a vote of censure on the appointment of
a new Baron. He had heard but our expression
on this suirject—ethat of surprise at the Noble
Lord's (Castlereagh) falling into the mistake he
had. But there was no reason,on that account,
that the House should fall into the trap of the
Noble Lord. If that Noble Lord bad influence
enough to induce the House, in the manner he
proposed, to give the go-by to this matter, he
should look upon it as a strtougerproof than' ever

ing :

that do e—eciiiOnry was to be expected froni the
preient inistet s.
Sir !t. riUNDAS stated; that the Commissioners
had; itt foiir short lineti; withtint assi‘gning any
reason, Stater)that the appointment was unneces-
sary. The Chief Judges, men of &relit experience
mid tincinestionahle integrity, hfid eotne to a dif-
ferent decision, and they had ftirtlished then with
the grounds upon which they came to digit de--

Lord A. HAMILTON said, in reference to what
a Noble Lord (Castlereagh) had said, that he did
not intend to confine his motion to the one at pre-
sent before the House.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw. The
discussion, however, continued with ebbed doors
for a period exceeding an hour ; eve afterwards
found, that upon dividing, the numbers were,
For Lord A. Hamilton's !notion 177
Against it
159
Majority •
On strangers' admittance toto the Gallery,
The SPEAKER said, the question was, that the
Vacancy in the Court of Exchequer in Scotland
ought not to have been tilled up moil the Report-
of the Commissioners had been made, and sub_
Milted to the consideration of that house ; after
which the previous question had been moved. •
The original question was negatived without a
Mr. BROUGHAM wished to be informed whether
tile Noble Lord intended that any future vacancy I
in the Scotch Exchequer Court should- he filled I

Lord CASTLEREAGH said, before he gave an
answer, he .must ask what steps the lion. Gentle-
man tueant to adopt in such an event ?
Mr. BuouGnmst said, that there had been so
mitch Scotch business, that they were obliged to
proceeei step by step lie was not prepared with
any precise question upon the subject, but gave
notice that, on the 25th instant, he would make
a motion respecting the propriety of filling up
Offices io ale Scotch Jury Courts.
The South Sea Company Bill was read a third
• time, stab passed.
On the motion of Mr. LUSHINGTON, an
Ac-
count of all Salt used for the purposes of Agli-
Culture, froM the 25tk March, 1819, to the pre-
sent time, was ordered.
Mr. LusHINGTON obtained leave to bring in a
Bill to render secure the Propeity of Suitors in
the Court of Exchequer.
'lite other Orders of the Day were disposed of,
and the House adjourned at One o'Clock.

LAW INTELLIGENCE.

COURT OF KING'S BENCH, MAY 15.

SENTENCE ON HCNT, &c.
At eleven o'clock the case of the King v. Henry
Hunt and others earne on in the manlier follow-

The Lord Chief-Justice ABBorr.----Mr. Attor-
ney-General, do you move ?
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL.—.I pray your Lord-
ship's judgment in the case of the King u. Henry
Hunt and others.
The Defenduhts were now called, and after a
short delay, they ill came into Court except
Johnson, who was finishing ,his affidavit.
Al! the defendants wore while hats, and Hunt
appeared to have provided a new one for the oc-
casion.

At half past eleven, Mint, who had retire

iagain came into Court, accompanied by Wooler,
i and Pearson the Attorney; Johnson came in im-
mediately afterwards.
The Lord Chief Justice ABBOTT--Well, the de-
fendants are all here now, I see. Are your affi-
I davits all ready now ?
Hunt--They are, my Lord.
The Lord Chief Justice Asaorr—We wish to
I see bow many there are.
Hunt—l should like to see if any affidavits are
to be put in in aggravation. The number I shall
put in will depend upon that,
The Lord Chief Justice ABBOTT-But you must
put in all the affidavits you intend to read first.
In some instances, under particular circumstances,
affidavits are allowed to be filed in reply.
• The defendants now consulted, and each then
handed in some affidavits.

An affidavit made by Hunt was now read, con-
taining a lung tirade of the same species of reit-
which- he- employed at York on the sub-
ject of the Manchester Alerting. ! •
Johnson's affidavit was next read, and chiefly
complained that he was disenrded by all his cos-
tumers and the respectable inhabitants of Man-
chester, in consequence of his connection with
this affair.

The other defendants had also made affidavits
•complaining of the treatment they had received
since the commission of the crime of which they
stand convicted, and reiterating the old calumnies
relative to the Ma►►cttester Meeting.
The Requisitionists or the Meeting also made
affidavi!s, asserting that the object in calling it
was a lawful one.

Other affidavits were also read, stating circum-
stances supposed to. 'be connected with the Meet-
ing. Among others., an of made by a man
named Nicnolas Whitworth was put in, swear-
ing that he had seen four hundred persons who
had been Womnied at the Manchester Meetiag,
and who exhibited to him gun-shot and sabre
wounds !

A great part of ibis affidavit was rejected, as
the facts to which it deposed were not affected to
be within the knowledge or the deponent.
Another affidavit was put in, charging Chad-
wick, one or the witnesses for the prosecution,
,with endeavouring to encourage persons to pur-
chase ?istols and pikes previous to the meeting ;
and also alleging that he was unworthy to be be.
lieved;on his oath,

The ATTOWNRY-GRERAL objected to this affi-
,avit, submitting that such allegations against a