The Sun.
London, England, 1842-03-22 00:00:00

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or vexatious opposition ; but he did think that, as a question of the greatest importance that could be discussed in the House of
Commons, time should be given to the House to determine
it
greatest was
broughtimportance—of beforeptehtehhhornoinnsgtihthue.
boeffohrhee
oughth to take their
eunptosiL fit', sr
VT-in:Jilt:as'
thratkt they could pre-
vent House on the subject—and he thought they
i touungi
ht yt
stand according to the forms of thgeh,Heotithisee,cosount
ilr'oElE)orsLitwioanss.surprised to hear theYr aerh'arogpel
the carrying of this vote, to
t o judgesir
ROBERTof these
against him by Hon. Gentlemen on the opposite side of the
i
for acting uncourteously—it was difficult for him to know how
act—sometimes he was charged with speaking too much, and
somteo
times he was charged with want ofcourtesy for not speaking at all.
lie had spoken for three hours and a half the other night, and en.
deavoured to tievelope the plan of her Majesty's Government as
well as he could. Objections were made, and ably made,
by the Right Hon. Gentleman the late Chancellor of the Exchequer ;
objections were also made by several other Hon. Gentlemen on the
opposite side of the House, but he must own, as far as he was con-
cerned, he had entirely exhausted all he had to say upon the ge-
neral question and the development of the plan.—(hear, hear.)
tie really thought that it was more consistent with true courtesy and
respect, under such circumstances, to maintain silence (meaning at
the same time no personal discourtesy) rather than make a speech
for an hour and a half or two hours, repeating what he had already
said.—(Cheers arid laughter.) The lion. Gentleman said he (Si '
Robert Peel) had not vindicated the machinery of the measure—he
had only explained the general machinery, and he embraced those
principles in the resolutions he submitted to the House. I lowever,
he had strong reasons now to believe that what the country wished
to see was, that the measure might be reduced to a tangible form.
It was impossible for him, at any rate, to vindicate the machinery
till it was put in a proper train. Ile hoped, however, that the
country would recollect that the question upon which the House
had just divided was put soon after hallSpast eleven o'clock,
when there was no disposition on that side of the
House to speak further upon the question. His Right
lion. Friend, the Chancellor of the Exchequer and himself (Sir
Robert Peel) had exhausted what they had to say. Other Gen-
tlemen had manifested no disposition to rise ;—the people of the
country were watching their proceedings in that House with in-
tense interest, and there should be no unnecessary delay.—(Year,
hear.) He could only say, that at half-past seven o'clock this
evening he counted the Members on that (the Opposition) side of
the House, arid then there were only 23 Members on them (Hear,
hear)—and he should also say there were not many more upon his
side of the House.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.)
Sir GEORGE GREY said it appeared a remarkable coincidence
that the Right Hun. Baronet should have taken the trouble to
count the House when there were so few Members on both
sides.—(Laughter.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that after what had fallen
from the Right Hen. Baronet, he should say that so long as it ap.
pearcd there were representatives of constituencies anxious to ad.
dress the House, he (Lord John Russell) would not join
in putting an end to the discussion ; but when the honourable
Gentlemen proposed an adjournment at half-past eleven o'clock,
at a time when the debate could have gone on conveniently, he
(Lord J. Russell) felt it his duty to oppose it. He thought there
had not been enough said upon the subject yet. The purpose and
object of going into a Committee of the whole House was to con-
sider the matter for discussion more maturely. It was only when
they began with the ordinary forms of a Bill—when they were
about to impose burdens upon the people—that the House of Corn.
mons resolved itself into a Committee of the whole House, in order
that It should have an opportunity to deliberate seriously upon the
question, arid ascertain the opinions of their constituencies. For
that reason he should feel it his dirty to take the sense of the
house upon those preliminary points; therefore, without any in-
tention of giving unnecessary delay, whenever a question was put,
either with the Chairman (Mr. Greene), or the Speaker in the
Chair, when he (Lord J. Russell) was called on to pronounce " Aye"
or " No," to the proposition, he should feel himself fully at liberty
to take the sense of the House upon the question.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. BROTHERTON said the motion of the Hon. Member (Mr.
Blewitt) was made without any consultation with the Members
upon that side of the House.
Lord WORSLEY disavowed any intention to give a factious
or unnecessary opposition to the Ministerial mea'ure,but he thought
it was due to the constituencies of the country to give them more time
to consider the question. He thought he should not be considered
guilty of factious opposition if he expressed his opinion that the
Government should consent to put off the measure till after Easter,
so that the country might have time to examine it thoroughly, and
form a judgment upon it. He could assure the House that this
was a subject of great importance to the agricultural districts, and
he hoped her Majesty's Government would consent to adjourn the
consideration of it till some future period.—(Divide.)
Mr. BLEWITT said the Hon. Member for Salford had accused
him of bringing forward a measure without the concert of his
party; he begged to say that he stood there as an independent
Member of Parliament—(oh, oh, and ironical cheers ftom the
Ministerial benches)—and every motion which he brought forward
was without reference to one party or the other.—( Divide, divide.)
Mr. DUNCOMBE said he thought the Right Hon. Baronet at
the head of her Majesty's Government would save himself and the
country a good deal of trouble if he would at once adjourn. As
for the word "factious" as it had been applied, he (Mr. Du incombe)
did not know what it meant, but in every case, when they op.
posed her Majesty's Government, they were called factious
(Hear, hear.) He highly deprecated the precipitancy of the Go.
vernment, and the country considered it most indecent. He had
been called on by his constituents to endeavour to defeat this mea.
sure by every constitutional means, and such he was sure was the
desire of many other constituencies, and this would be manifested
after Easter, as soon as the people understood the matter.—(" No,
no.") He was sure that the more the question was understood,
the more it would be opposed. It was for this reason that her
Majesty's Government wished to press this measure through the
House ; and so long as an Adjournment was moved, he should vote
in favour of it,
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the Committee
divided, when there appeared—
For the motion el
Against it
Majority against the motion — 151)
On the gallery being re-oisened,
Mr. 'l'. DUNCOMBE was on his legs. He said that the number
for the adjournment on the former division was 51, on this division
Lt was 91 ; the number had, therefore, consequently increased, and
he hoped that the Right Hon baronet would now consent to give
the House end the country the time they required ; they required it
that thcmeasure might be folly discussed. There were four or fire
Gentlemen near him who were anxious to address the Committee
on this resolution, but he did not ask for the delay on that account;
it was that the subject might receive a full deliberation.
If the country their should be in favour of the principle
of an incense tax, it would give its consent to it, with its
eyes open—((hear, hear)—if not, the people would have at least an
opportunity of making up their minds on the question. He would
say again that lion. Gentlemen opposite would snake a great mistake
if they should ask the 'louse to agree to this resolution this evening.
Ile therefore begged leave to move that the Chairman do report
progress and ask leave to sit again.—(Cries of" Divide, divide.")
Sir R. PEEL said-1 will not voluntarily be a party to the post-
ponement of this resolution—(Hear, hear)—any longer.—( Cheers.)
I may not be able in resist the obstructions which may be thrown
in the way of the Honse, but I will not voluntarily be a party to
a postponement of the resolution, because I think the House is ler
a position to pronounce an opinion upon this preliminary step, If
the sense of the country should be against the measure proposed,
that sense may be effectually manifested against it in future stages
of the measure. The Noble Lord opposite has given notice of his
intentions to take the sense of the House on several stages of the
Bill—on the first, second, arid third readings. The first of these
stages cannot possibly be proceeded with till after Easter, and the
Bill itself cannot be produced till after,this preliminary resolution is
agreed :to. I confidently believe that the sense of the country
will be in favour of the Bill.—(Cheers.) There may be some
difficulty attending the proposition of the resolution and the
passing the Bill, but I believe that the country will be willing to
bear those burdens which I believe are necessary to the mainte.
uance of public credit and the national honour. I have a confident
trust, also, that the proceedings of this night will not disincline
them to that feeling.—(Cheers.) I place full reliance on the sense
of the country, and I believe I do not mistake it, when I say that
1 think it will deprecate the course now taken. It is my inten.
time therefore, if I am prevented from inrceeedlng now with this
resolution, to fix the very earliest day which I can fix, which is
tire first day of Supply, Wednesday next, when I shall be in my
place ready to discharge what I think my duty to the country, in
proposing to tire House the further discussion of this measure.
I am desirous as soon as possible to make known to the country
what are the exemptions, what are the nature of the regulation%
and what the machinery for collecting the tax. I carnet have tut
opportunity of doing this until the House has assented to the third
resolution, and, I believe, it is fitting that this resolution should be
discussed at a time of the session when there is a certainty of a full
attendance. Therefore, lam anxious to proceed with the preli-
minarystage now. But, from long experience in public affairs, I
know what will be the result of contests of this kind. I voted with
the utmost pleasure with the first majority when the motion was
merely to put off the present proceeding. The second was on the
substantive point, whether or not the resolution was sufficiently dis-
cussed, and whether the House was content that the proceeding
should go on now. On the first division, the Members of the late
Government voted with the majority, on the last they retired from
the House.—(llear, hear.) Ido not complain of their retirement,
for, I take it as an indication that, in the opinion of the la,'e Ad.
ministration, we were perfectly justified in the vote, and as far xst
the subject had passed, competent to take the sense of the House.--0
(Loud cheers) But knowing the result of contests of this
kind when persevered in, I will beg of my Hon. Friend
not to press his motion, the sense of the House hats
been already manifested, and I am sure that if we show a little
patience we shall reap our reward.—(Cheers.) Therefore I will
not oppose the motion of the Hon. Gentleman,
against it; but I shall at a subsequent period of the evening more
that these proceedings be resumed at the earliest possible period,
that is, Wednesday next.—(Cheers.) although protest
Mr. FOX MA UEE said that the Right Hon. Baronet observed
with a sort of self-sufficient complacency, that the opinion of the
country was on his side. What grounds had he for saying so P
Did he see the opinions of the newspapers, which were the exposi—
tors of the opinions of the country ?—(Herr, hear.) For his part,:
so far as ire could collect public opinion he (Mr. Fox Mauler knew
it was decidedly against the Right Hon. Baronet.—(Hear, hear, And
great interruption, which was renewed amidst laughter and Arles of
" u esti o ," at every new attempt the Right Hen. Gentleman mati'e
to speak.) He would content himself with saying that he did .nct.
fear to meet the Right Ilon. Baronet on the area of truistic opinion.
Sir T. ACLAND saint that it appeared from the speech CE
the Right lion, Gentleman that the object of these motions wa
delay and not discussion. The Hon. Gentlemen opposite wished%
for delay without discussion, in order to give their friends out of
doors the advantage of determining on the measure before they
knew its details.—(lllinisterial cheers.) Ile had divided witch the
majority on the last divisions, believing, that by so doing, he
was showing to the country the nature of the opposition
which had sprung up within the last few days. It was
his (Sir Thomas Acland's) wish that the measure should
go before the public for their decision in a complete state. It
could not do so unless tine resolution was passed before the recess.
He hoped this kind of warfare with which old Members wove
but too familiar would not be continued, but as Hon. Members
opposite could not exercise their invaluable privileges of obstruct-,
ing public measures without paying for it the penalty they had to pays
for it this night was the waste of an hour and a half of public time.
Mr. C. BULLER wiehed to say a few words on what had Wiese
front the Right Hon. Baronet and the Hon. Gentleman who had.
just sat down. He (Mr. Buller) admitted the impropriety of the'
attempt at adjourning at half.past eleven, and had voted against like
It had appeared to him afterwards, as twelve o'clock arrived, than
it would have been in conformity with the usual course for the
House to adjourn.—(Cries of " Oh, oh," from the Ministerial
benches, and loud cheers from the Opposition). Why the Right:
Honourable Baronet had said before that he did not wish to place-
any obstruction in the way of Hon. Members who wished to ad.
dress tine House ; and it should be recollected that they were in
Committee for discussion only one night. There was another ar.
gument which would justify him in his opposition to the attempt of
the Government to push this question forward to an immediate
vote, and that was the ground taken by the Right Hon. Baronet,
that he had further revelations to make respectingthe machinery.
Why it was the most preposterous thing ever known to propose an
income tax one Friday, to develope the plan of machinery another
Friday, and then to say that he had further revelations to make,
and unless they would give him a further stage of the Bill, to sayhe
would not make them, and would hold them (the Opposition) up to
the country as preventing him from doing so. He (Mr. B.)would apPeal
to the country on that point, and ask who it was that withheld in.
formation from the people ? He who relbsed to give all his in-
formation at once, or those who said they would reflzse to give a
vote in the dark.—(Loud cheers.) The Right Hon. Baronet
was acting contrary to the precedent of all his predecessors. lie
(the Right Hon. Baronet) might have followed the precedent of
Mr. Pitt, who whew he first proposed the income tax
had detailed all the machinery
so clearly that he had no further
explanation to make. (Cheers.) The Eight Hon. Baronet had
not been able to make it out at twelve deliveries. It was hard to
call on the House to vote without this explanation.—(Cheers.)
Sir It. PEEL said he had not said he had any further reretatica