The Sun.
London, England, 1842-03-02 00:00:00

4:NING, MARCH 2, 1842

race of men as utterly incapable of having any will of their
own, and that, in fact, they were more like a race of monkeys
than men. But it now appeared that the Noble Lord was
going to sanction the exportation of these creatures; he did
not think that the Governor-General,: on his arrival in India,
would be very anxious to put the measure into effect.—
( Hear, hear.) He considered the course the Noble
Lord had taken was most inconsistent, having to the
utmost opposed the measure of the late Government to the
same effect, nothing material having occurred in the interval to
change his opinion. But it was not merely the inconsistency
of this course that was sufficient to justify him in asking the
attention of the House. He was also most anxious for the
success of some great scheme, which should induce the Coolies
to seek a market for their labour under proper protection, so
as to enable not only the Mauritius, but the West Indies,
to be cultivated in a better manner than had hi-
therto been the case. Ile still retained the highest
interest in this question, and that was the reason he had
ventured to call the attention of the House towards it.
He.wished the Noble Lord to state, therefore, what steps, if
ally, he had taken on this subject with foreign Powers,
which had been admitted by every authority to he necessary as
a preliminary measure. He wished also to know if he bad
had any correspondence with the East India Company on the
question, as he should be glad to hear what was now the opinion
of that powerful body ; for he trusted that the mighty were not so
fallen that they could be overlooked by the. Noble Lord.
The last point he wished for information upon, was, what were
the instructions given on this subject, either written or per-
sonally, to Lord Ellenborough, either by the East India Com-
pany, or by the Noble Lord.
Lord STANLEY said he must beg the indulgence of
the House while he endeavoured to answer the various at-
tacks that had been made on him, and on her Majesty's Go-
vernment, for that which had been termed the rash and
precipitate course which the Government had adopted on
the present occasion. lie should endeavour to show to
the House, that neither had his own conduct been, as stated by
the Noble Lord, inconsistent with the course taken in 1840,
nor that the Government had been neglectful of the interests
of the various parties they had to consider, nor that their mea-
sure had been adopted without,due consideration and delibera-
tion. One charge which the Right Hon. Gentleman had
brought against the Government was, that two days before
the meeting of Parliament they, had thought fit
to promulgate an Order in Council on this subject.
that they might speak out of the necessity of coming before
Parliament. It appeared also most suspicious to the Right
Hon. Gentleman, that the Order should have been issued just
two days before thel meeting of Parliament ; now. for the pur-
pose of formally passing an Order of this nature, it was neces-
sary that the Council should be called together, and the Right
Hon. Gentleman's own experience was surely long
enough to have told him that it was not unusual
to hold a Council at that particular period.
It did appear to him (Lord Stanley) singular that the Right
Hon. Gentleman should assume, that because that document
appeared at a date two days before the meeting of Parliament,
it did so appear for the purpose of withdrawing the question
from the consideration of Parliament—(hear, hear.) But
the Right Hon. Gentleman said that this was a course which
her Majesty's Government had no authority to take, and that
in 1840 his Noble Friend would have taken a very different
course on this subject. lie (Lord Stanley) thought that the
Right Hon. Gentleman had forgotten thatas soon as Parlia-
ment had met, the Right Hon. Gentleman, having seen the
Order in Council alluded to, asked him (Lord Stanley) if it
was his intention to lay that Order on the table of the House.
He (Lord Stanley) stated in reply that it was not only his
intention to do so, but also to accompany it with such docu-
ments as he should deem necessary for its elucidation. Not-
withstanding that, the Right Hon. Gentleman gave notice of a
motion for the production of the Order in Council relative to
emigration to the Mauritius. The Order in Council kad been
laid on the table, and the Right Hon. Gentleman's motion was
postponed to the followir's day, then to the following week,
and up to this morning the Right Hon. Gentleman's notice of
motion referred to the production of an Order in Council that had
been laid on the table of the House a few days after the meet-
ing of Parliament, and this morning it first appeared that the
Right Hon. Gentleman meant to move for a copy of instruc •
tions which he supposed to have been given by the authorities
connected with:the management of Indian affairs to the Go-
vernor-General of India respecting emigration to the Mauri-
tius. With regard to the motion itself, he (Lord Stanley)
concluded that the Right Hon. Gentleman would not press it,
when he was informed that no such instructions as those he
alluded to were issued, and that he (Lord Stanley) had con-
sequently nothing to produce. The Right Hon. Gentleman
was exceedingly surprised at the course pursued by the Go-
vernment with respect to the Order in Council, in not having
previously laid it before Parliament. He (Lord Stanley)
hoped that he would never, either as a Minister of the Crown
or otherwise, be wanting in respect to the Houses of Parlia-
ment. But he would venture only to say, that in his judg-
ment the course pursued by Ministers, in this matter, was Con-
stitutional ; and in advising the Crown, they acted upon their
responsibility as Ministers, and had announced to Parliament
the step they had taken, inviting from Hon. Gentlemen their
condemnation or approbation, as it might be, with reference to
that step. That was the course which the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman said his Noble Friend would not have taken. Why his
Noble Friend had announced his intention, in Feb. 1840, to
take that very course, that he had changed his opinions, and
that he was going to make a change in his conduct, and
that he was going to consult Parliament previously with re-
spect to the step he meant to take.—(Hear, hear.)
He (Lord Stanley) ventured to say that Parliament would not
have allowed such a step at the time, and would thereby have
shown that they had no great confidence in the Executive of
the day. The Right Hon. Gentleman had the kindness to
tell them that if any further information had been obtained
from the Mauritius, if any circumstances occurred to alter
the state of things existing in 1840—that he admitted there
were good grounds for pursuing a different course in 1842
from that pursued in 1840. He (Lord Stanley) would tell
him that the circumstances were altogether quite different.
He (Lord Stanley) would endeavour to show what
were the grievous abuses against which Parliament had pro-
tested, and the manner in which the present Government
meant to meet those abuses. They had been successful in
meeting those abuses in three cases—in Mauritius, on the pas-
sage, and in India itself. He did not deny that great abuses
had prevailed in the Mauritius, with regard to the Indians
brought over there. Many of them had suffered great hard-
ships, and were subject to great cruelty. They had, however,
exaggerated accounts of the extent of the mortality among the
immigrants. He had bead it stated that in the Mauritius severe
treatment hail brought on a mortality among the Ilill Coolies,
who it was stated were treated like slaves. lie had
made inquiries with regard to the mortality, and by
a return which he now had, it appeared that the
number of emigrants imported between the years 1834
and 1839 amounted to 17,028, and out of that number during
those five years there had died just 999, or 1 in 17, or 1-17th
per cent. during those five years. Was it possible that they
could have received two accounts of the sufferings and morta-
lity that prevailed anion.. the Hill Coolies ? Now he should
state his objections to the system of emigration to the Mauri-
tius, as it had been hitherto conducted. Parties united and
paid an agent in India, for the purpose, without any restraint,
of securing and making agreements with a number of labourers
to come over to the Mauritius, and, tinder a contract,
to serve a particular master for five years, at a
certain rote of wages. The consequence of that
was, in the first place, the emigrant brought to Mau-
ritius found himself, when he arrived, confined to virtual
slavery for a period of five years. He entered into an impro-
vident contract in India, but that contract seas binding upon
him. He found others earning larger wages than he (lid, and
that he had no opportunity of bringing his labour fairly into
the market. He found that he had imprudently received ad-
vances with respect to clothing and other articles which caused
him to be in debt to his master rather than admitting of his
receiving wages. It was no wonder then, that fineing
himself in a state of compulsory servitude for five years,
the Hill Coolie was dissatisfied with his situation. No doubt
it was an importation of immigrants to give their services to
the planters at a lower rate of wages than that which they
could earn in the colony, and that the emigration was con-
ducted for the purpose of private advantage by private agents,
to satisfy private ends. It consequently led to a vast amount
of injustice and suffering. The Right Hon. Gentleman had
told theni that he had confidence in Lord Ellenborough, to
expect that that Noble Lord would not carry into effect the pro-
visions of the plan proposed to be carried into operation by that
Nobleman. lie (Lord Stanley) should have neglected his duty
very much, if before Lord Ellenborough had gone to India, he
had not entered into an examination of this subject in all its
details, in repeated personal conferences with Lord Ellen-
borough ' • and before that Noble Lord left this country, all the
premises had been agreed upon, which it was intended that he,
in his capacity of Governor-General of India, was to submit to
his Council as their measure upon this subject, and that Noble
Lord entertained the fullest conviction that he should be able
efficiently to legislate for protection against the abuses of the
whole system. The Government would not have been justified
if they had not fully communicated with the Board of Control
on this subject, and he (Lord Stanley) admitted that it was
very satisfactory to him that the individual who filled the office
of President of the Board of Control concurred with his
Noble Friend already at the head of that Board, that with
his instrumentality they would be able to carry out a
system of free emigration, not subject to those abuses which
had been condemned by that House. The Right Hon. Gentle-
man threw out a suspicion against the Members of the East.
India Company so unworthy of that body, that he (Lord
Stanley) could not but suppose that there was not one of them
that would not repudiate the imputation sought to be fixed
upon them. The Right Hon. Gentleman said, " Let them
lemember that the East India Company were sugar growers."
Mr. VERNON SMITH here said something across the
table, but in so low a tone of voice as to be scarcely
audible in the gallery. We understood the Right Hon.
Gentleman to say that his observation was that the East
India Company was connected with persons who were growers
of sugar.

L6'r,t STANLEY went on to say that he could not believe
that a great body like the East India Company, answerable
for its own character, as for its own interest, would throw
any obstacle in the way of free emigration from India to a place
where the emigrants might have higher wages and constant
employment, for the purpose of keeping in India itself a supera-
bundant population, whose wages amounted to but lid. a-day.
The Right Hon. Gentleman asked what had occurred
since the year 1840. What reasons had they to suppose that
those abuses which were found to take place previous to 1840
did not take place in 1842 ? The Right Hon. Gentleman
charged his Right Hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the
Home Department with not having taken any step in 1840.
Now what had his Right Hon. Friend said? Why that he
was not prepared to legislate, because parties had changed, until
he had heard from the Governor-General of India, or the
Governor of the Mauritius. Since that time they
had heard both from the Governor-General of India, and the
Governor of the Mauritius, and both those officers had stated
it to be their opinion, that emigration to the Mauritius might
k.he conducted with safety. Now, who was the Governor of the
Mauritius. Why, Sir Lionel Smith, who of all men on the
face of the earth, was the most favourable to the slave. Sir Lionel
Smith in •1840, wrote to the Secretary of State, stating that
the Indjan labourer would be much better off in the Mauritius
than in their own overstocked country. Since 1840 they had had
the testimony of men above suspicion that there was abundant
and sufficient protection afforded in the Mauritius against any
fraud that might he practised on free labourers. Added to this,
they had the Report of a Committee appointed in 1838 to in.
quire into the practicability of preventing the abuse that
existed in India relative to emigration, and from that Report it
was clear that emigration might be carried on according to the
plan proposed by the Government. He regretted that the
Right Hon. Gentleman had so shaped his motion as to prevent
him calling upon the House to express their opinion
as to the course which the Government had
adopted. Under the former system a person was
appointed by a planter to select certain persons, but the altera-
tion that was proposed had not in it the least taint of
slavery. It was proposed that the Legislature of the Mauritius
should be entitled to vote a certain fund for the purpose of pro-
moting and paying for the free immigration of labourers from
India, but they were to come only from certain ports which
were to be appointed by the Governor-General. At each of
those ports there was to be a Government agent whose sole
duty would be to see every emigrant; a person to examine whe-
ther they went upon their own accord, or whether they had
been deluded by false expectations ; to acquaint them
of the probable amount of their wages, to state
to them that when they arrived at the Mau-
ritius they would be as free as any person
on the face of the earth, to see that the ship that took them
out was' perfectly provided with provisions, see- that before
the ship left the port it contained a list of the -emigrants
on board, and not allow any ship to go out of the port till all 4

conditions were complied with. But that was not all, there
was a further provision to the effect, that a person was to be
appointed at the Mauritius to receive those who had chosen to
become emigrants, to compare the list, to inquire of each
whether they had any complaints to make, to acquaint them
that no contract that they might have entered into in India
was binding on them, that they were free and ready to
engage with any master, subject, however, to this
limitation, that for forty-eight hours they should not
enter into any contract, and that anything they might enter
into should not be of a longer duration than one year. Such
were the provisions of the measure, and he would ask any rea-
sonable man whether it was possible to make greater protec-
tions for the labourer ? But, added to this, if the labourer was
dissatisfied AI ith the island, he might return at his own ex-
pense ; but if he had served these five years, then he would
have the right to claim a free passage back. It was, therefore,
clear that there was no interest in any person to deceive the
emigrants, because the great object was to get those species
of emigrants there that would stay. Under the old system, it was
sought to get as much as possible out of the emigrants,
whi:e under the new the great object was to make them as sa-
tisfied as possible. But then it was said that the Governor-
General had in his minutes pointed out his doubts as to the
policy of allowing persons to emigrate to the Mauritius. Now
what did the Governor-General of India say upon that sub-
ject ? The Governor-General said, " The attention which I
have been able to give to the subject has led me to no very sa-
tisfactory conclusion upon it, embracing as it does the difficult
question of opening emigration to many distant and even foreign
colonies."—( freer, hear, from the Opposition.) Oh, yes ; but
the Right Hon. Gentleman did not go on to read the next words,
" I am clearly of opinion that the present law, which to a
great degree restricts the freedom of labour and improvement
in the whole Indian population, is most objectionable in prin-
ciple; that it will probably become injurious and vexatious in
operation , that it should not be regarded as permanent ; and
that no safe opportunity should be omitted of relaxing it."
These words the Right Hon. Gentleman did not read to the
House ; and yet he told them that he should go freely into the
whole question. Now, although the Right Hon. Gentleman
selected a passage about the middle of the next page, in which
the Governor-General stated, that feeling the extent and
force of the difficulties, he could not indulge a hope, Sze. ; he
did not go on to read the following words:—" The impression
to be taken from the evidence of the Hill Coolies who have re-
turned, is, I think, upon the whole most favourable; and it
may be assumed, with regard to the Mauritius, that
where there is prudence and good conduct, and an average
share of good fortune, a Coolie may return, after a few years
of labour in that colony, enriched and improved, and for the
most part bringing with him the recollection of no great hard-
ship.' Were this system carried out, he believed that it would
be of general advantage, and in the end many of the abuses
which had been found to exist would work their own cure.
"In this view, and under ordinary circumstances, and
if the slave trade and slavery had never been, we might per-
haps approach the question of an open emigration with some
hope of devising a principle which might be relied upon, and
generally effective against abuse." Then the Right Hon.
Gentleman quoted the passage speaking of the difficulty which
attended open emigration, but he did not go on to read this
passage :—" It will be for her Majesty's Government to decide
whether distinctions as to the supply of labour can be admitted
between the several Crown settlements. As respects the interests
for which we are more especially responsible, I can say that
j my objections are assuredly the strongest to dealings of this
description with the colonies and settlements which are most
distant." The sea passage from its very length, exposed them
to suffering and hardship. " With Alauritius, however, the
case is different. It is a British settlement easily accessible
from India, and open to our observation ; and if the question
were that of opening emigration to that island, I would will-
ingly attempt to meet the difficulty which might be opposed to
us, and I should hope, shortly and gradually, in a very great
measure to overcome them by a plan such as has been sug-
gested by Mr. Grant." The Governor-General stated that
by the appointment of inspectors of emigration, and other
means, they might do much towards preventing the oppression
of it. Two or three years ago, there had been too much rea-
son to complain. "We could at the same time," said he,
" always satisfy ourselves that the measures adopted in the
Mauritius for the protection of the labourers when
in the island, were operative and sufficient." The Governor-
General came in the end to the conclusion that if the home
Government were disposed to refuse their consent to a mare
extended emigration, then at all events he would press upon
them the necessity of repealing this most anomalous law. He
appealed to the House whether the Right Hon. Gentleman
had acted fairly in keeping back those passages ?—( Hear,
hear.) Now, the other members of the Committee, Mr.
,Princep, Mr. Bird, and Mr. Amos, had all reported on the
subject. Mr. Bird stated that upon the whole he objected to
a relaxation of the present law ; but the House would observe
that his objection to the relaxation rested, not upon the hard-
ships to which the labourers were exposed, but upon the ground
of there being no superabundance of labour in India, and on the
ground that in some places where persons had been anxious to
obtain labourers they were not able to obtain them.—( Hear,
hear.) But the other two gentlemen, Mr. Princep and Mr.
Amos, expressed a decided opinion in favour of it. He saw
nothing in either of their Reports to warrant the use
to which the Bight Hon. Gentleman had applied them. The
Bight Hon. Gentleman said that Mr. Amos was the echo of
Mr. Princep. So far from that being the case, it appeared
from his statement, that he arrived at his eonelusien on totally
different grounds. But this fact stood recorded in a letter
from the East India Company themselves, that whatever
other difference there might be, these gentlemen were unani-
mously of opinion, that the existing prohibitory law could riot
and ought not to be maintained : that the prohibition must be
relaxed, though upon the mode of relaxing it they were not
altogether agreed.—( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentle-
man had charged the Government with acting hastily in
this matter, when in fact they were acting upon the
authority of the Governor-General of India, the Governor
of Mauritius, and the Board of Control in India, after
a full consultation of the members.—( Hear, hear.) More-
over he would tell the Hon. Gentleman, though he must
know it well, that there was no man more anxious for the
early and speedy relaxation of this prohibitory law that the Noble
Lord, under whom he served in the Colonial-office. lie must
know, also, that almost the last dispatch, written by the direc-
tion of the Noble Lord, contained this passage :—" At the
same time, his Lordship desires me to state, that he is strongly
of opinion that the prohibition of the exportation of the Hill
Coolies should be removed, with proper restrictions and provi-
giant for the health and return of the Hill Coolies.'' Now,
they had enabled the Governor-General in Council to take
those precautions, and unless he was satisfied upon that sub-
ject the emigration did not take place. They had taken those
precautions which the Noble Lord directed to be carried into
effect, with regard to emigration from Sierra Leone to the
West Indies, aad which had been so effectual in preventing
abuse, that not a single complaint had been heard. Under
these circumstances he ventured to hope that the House would
not think that the Government had dealt rashly and hastily with
this question. They had provided, by every legislative enactment
which they could devise, for the protection of the labourers; they
had advised the Governor-General as to the best means
experience pointed out as adapted for that purpose; and they
had further provided, that unless the precautions were carried
into effect the emigration should not take place. With re-
spect to the clause of the insertion of which in the Act the
Right Hon. Gentleman had complained, that clause was in-
troduced for this obvious reason: the Governor-Gereral had
no power in the Mauritius of enforcing penalties for the vio-
lation of the Indian Act, and the clauses were inserted in order
to provide for that difficulty. If the Right Hon. Gentleman
thought proper to bring forward a motion condemning the conduct
of her Majesty's Government in reference to this question, lie
would be prepared to meet him upon it ; at present he would
content himself with calling upon the House to negative this
very insignificant motion. —( Cheers. )
NIL HAWES thought the Noble Lord had endea-
voured to evade the real question. If he had
known that this general discussion was to take place on
the whole subject of the emigration of Hill Coolies, he would
have been prepared to meet the Noble Lord ; but he (Mr. H. )
was sure that when all the papers connected with the question
had been fairly considered, he should be entitled to draw dif-
ferent conclusions from those which the Noble Lord founded on
the despatch he had read from the Governor of the Mauritius.
Ile (Mr. H. ) would content himself with saying that lie would
not rely on the authorities of the Mauritius to treat. the Hill
Coolies with justice and humanity. Ile recognized and admired
the high character of Sir Lionel Smith, and remembered with
gratitude and pleasure what that gallant officer had done for the
coloured population while he was Governor of Jamaica. Not-
withstanding the disposition and ability of this Gallant Officer,
lie (Mr. H.) still feared that no regulations made in behalf of
the Hill Coolies, either here or in India, would be carried out
by the authorities at the Mauritius. He (31r. II.) would ad-
vert to another despatch, in which, after describing the quar-
rels that took place between the Hill Coolies and their masters,
the writer said that the former were of the lowest and
most ignorant class in India, while the latter were
" still mourning over the loss of their slaves." Those
facts were sufficient to excite his apprehension; but when the
clauses to which he particularly objected, came before the
House, he would state his views upon the general question. He
did not think that the immorality and sensuality mentioned in
the despatch would be diminished by the plan of the Noble
Lord. However, he ( Mr. H.) would not oppose the second
reading of the Bill if the Noble Lord would agree to fix a dis-
tant day for the Committee, that he and other persons inter-
ested in this question might have an ample opportunity to dis-
cuss the objectionable clauses, and to take the sense of the
house on them. He would only add that, however he differed
from the Government on this measure, he believed they acted
on the best motives.
Lord STANLEY was understood to assent to the proposition,
on condition that the second reading of the Bill should not be
opposed, as he was anxious to proceed with the measure im-•
mediatelv.
Mr. HOGG was dissatisfied with the manner in which the
subject had been treated that evening. His 'tight /fon.
Friend avowed that lie introduced his motion for the sake of
attacking her Majesty's Government, and between the vehe-
mence of the attack and the spirit of the defence, the
attention of the House had been distautted from the real
subject. To this, he (Mr. IL ); now proposed to direct.
them. He must observe, that the conclusions of the Noble
Lord were not borne out by his documents, nor bad he distinctly
brought the case before them. The Noble Lord traced the
proceedings of the House to the period when instructions were
sent out by the Court of Directors to the Local Government,
to prohibit the exportation of Hill Coolies. Previous to this
time there had been a general outcry in India against the
cruelties suffered by the emigrant Hill Coolies. A great
meeting, was held at Calcutta, at, which merchants, bankers,
military men, natives, in short, all classes joined in denouncing
the conduct of the masters of the unfortunate Hill
Coolies. At home the matter was brought before
both Houses of Parliament. Lord Ellenborotigh, assisted
by the Duke of Wellington, brought in a Bill in the House
of Lords, but they had to give it up in despair, for as he
(Mr. II.) told the Noble Lord, it was so clogged with con-
ditions and stipulations that it was impracticable, and that
no emigration could take place under it. Then a petition
from the Court of Directors was presented to Parliament.
The result was that orders were sent to the Local Govern-
ment to prohibit the emigration of Hill Coolies. The Noble
Lord, the late Secretary for the Colonies, stated that it was
his intention to relax this state of things, and talked of a
Bill and an Order in Council, but he shrank from the task,
though by no means a timid politician. In the meantime the
Court of Directo:s determined to take no steps in the
matter while the question was before Parliament, and until
Parliament had given its ()pinion thereon, showing a deference
and respect to Parliament which the Noble Lord the Member
for North Lancashire did not.—( Hear, hear.) Thus the
matter had stood—so it stood now. When the subject was
discussed before. his Right Hon. Friend said they ought to
wait for the report expected from India. The report arrived
on the very day he (Mr. H.) predicted it would come. Sic
inc SClTarit Apollo —(Laughter)—and it coloured the atroci-
ties that. had taken place. Minutes from the Governor-Ge-
neral and Council also came. Sir Lionel Smith said the re-
port slid not deserve notice. If it were otherwise, he supposed
the Noble Lord would have submitted the provisions he intended
to enact to the Board of Control and the Court of Directors.
Those proposed safeguards ought to have been submitted to
the Court of Directors for their consideration. After consider-
ing the whole case, the Directors would have issued
their instructions to the local authorities ; and those in-
structions, together with the proposed Order in Council, ought
to have been laid on the table of the House by the Noble Lord,
in order to enable the House to come to a conclusion on the
subject.—( Cheers.) The House would then have had an op.
portunity of hearing both sides ; but the Noble Lord, with ad-
mirable dexterity, had kept one side of the question eons-
pletely out of sight.—( Opposition cheers. ) There were 1.11(11*-
mities committed in India as well as in the Mauritius, and as

yet no one knew the law which it was intended to intr°a,ue4
on the subject in India. He (Mr. Hogg) was a NClrnr .
of the Court of Directors, and he slid not k. low .wt" t
were the regulations the Government proposed to inn odnee eon
the subject .in India.—(Hear,. hear.) The Noble L ord h 4d
proCeeded very well a+ tar as his own department w to :cot ,-
cerned. The Order in Council would remedy the abu Sea ea -
isting in the transportation of the. Coolies from India . to a a
Mauritius, and would also remove the abuses complained 'of Ise existing in the Mauritius with regard to-the treatment of the%
Coolies. But he (Mr. Hogg) wanted to know what meas'aree4
it Was proposed to adopt in ludia.—( Hear, hear.) The lit :
ought to know it. It ought to be laid on the table, and he .
was not sure that the House ought not to require that the loral.,
instructions of the Govertior ~ of India should be laid
on the table before they proceeded to legislate on
the Fit bje et. —Loud cheers.) He would not dwell at .:
any length on the existence of the abuses in India, because
existence of those abuses had been admitted. What he
wanted to know was the remedy which the Noble Lord pro-
posed for those abuses. The Noble Lord had talked a. great
deal of the appointment of inspectors and protectors, hut on the
would, tell the
aauthorityrodf t
hLaotrel
all
thes Auckland,these inspectors
lie;(Ah
n. rldo
' for nothing. The plan had been in full operation in Calcutta,
apgrgo were good
)tector?
at the very time that those enormities were perpetrated, at the
existence of which they had all been so much shocked.—
( Cheer's.) He was convinced that in such a country as India
it was a vain attempt to endeavour to remedy such abuses by
such means. He would show the House that there was the.
strongest ground for believing that those 15,000 or 16;000 Coolies
who had been exported had been induced to go on ship board 13, the
grossest fraud.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. Dowson, a Mauritius planter,
had endeavoured to procure some Hill Coolies to emigrate, and fcr
that purpose he had employed Mr. Caliput, an honest agent,
to proceed up the country, anti had given him strict
orders to explain to the Coolies precisely the terms
upon which they were to be engaged—that they were
to leave the country for five years, Mr. Caliput went,
but his mission proved a fruitless one. Not a single Cooly would
engage with him when be explained to them exactly the terms
upon which they were to be engaged, and this was at a• time
when they were engaging by hundreds with another agent who
was employed by other planters in the same district.—(Hear, hear.)
Could the House require a greater proof that gross fraud must have
been practised upon these poor creatures ? (Hear, hear.) As
.a
confirmation of that assertion, he would mention the fact that the
East India Company having established a toa plantation in Assam,
and having thus proved that the tea plant could be successfully cul-
tivated in India, had given up the plantations Into the
hands of private individuals. Those individuals had subsequently,
applied to the Indian Government, stating that they should be,
ruined for want of labourers, and beseeching the Government to
send them assistance. The Indian Government sent an agent up
into the neighbourhood of Nagpore to try and engage some Hilf
Coolies to go to Assam. They were offered their expenses to As..
sam and back, and an allowance of three rupees a month ; and he
begged to observe that in that country three rupees a month
was equal to six or seven in the Mauritius. The agent of the
Government found none of the Coolies willing to go. Several' of
them inquired the place to which it was intended they should
go, and they refused, saying they were unwilling to go
to a country which had never been visited by any of their
brethren, and expressing a fear that it was intended to send theta
beyond the sea, and to subject them to the sanie horrora and
sufferings as their brethren had undergone.—(Hear, hear.) An-
!o:her application was made, and Mr. Davis, who was employed
on that occasion, reported that the Coolies were not willing to
expatriate themselves—that they were extremely attached to their
country, and that they had good reason to be so, for from the
extreme cheapness of grain in the neighbourhood of N'agpore,
no labouring population had such a command of the necessaries of
life as the Coolies of Nagpore.—(Hear, hear,) A third attempt
had been made to induce the Coolies to emigrate to Assam. and
had beets equally unsuccessful—not one of them would go. That was
strong evidence to show that the Coolies who had emigrated had not
done so of their own free will—(Hear, hear.) If they conid con.
voice him that those persons had emigrated of their own tree.will,
he would not have the slightest objection to the plan of the alsible
Lord ; but until he was so convinced, he should be exceedingly
sorry to see the present law altered.—(Cheers.) The Noble Lotd
had quoted, with a peat air of triumph, the opinion of the Gover.
nor. General en the subject, as if it were in his favour; but he (Mi.
Hogg) contended that the opinion of the Goverifor.General by no
means bore out the Noble Lord.—(Hear, hear.) It was true
that the Governor-General said that the home authorities pre.
vented any general system of emigration ; but he also stated
that he should he sorry to see the present law repealed, although
he should be glad to see a relaxation of it with regard to parti.
cular persons and places. The Governor-General, in that, alluded
to cases of artisans in Calcutta contracting to execute buildings
and works in the Mauritius, not to Hill Coolies. He was sure
they could never legislate satisfactorily on the subject until they
had entered into treaties with the European and Na.
tive Powers on the coast.—(Hear, hear.) It this system
of emigration were permitted, they would be virtually reviving
the slave trade.—(Cheers from the Opposition.) They would take
away from any moral influence the remoustrances might possess
with other Powers on the subject of the slave trade, if they re.
opened this system of emigration to the Mauritius.—(Cheers.) They
had heard a great deal about the return of the Coolies, and of the
extent of their comforts, &c., but this statement was made with
reference to men who were sent back for the purpose of entrapping
others.—(Opposition cheers.) Of the thousands of Coolies, there
Were only `Xi of that number who had been examined. It might
be said that he (Mr. Ilogg) had taken up very strong views against
emigration at all, but he declared to the House that he had taken
no view whatever upon the subject, except that which an imperative
sense of duty urged him to take.—(Loud cheers.) Every
man, whether influenced by duty, interest, or caprice, should
have a right to go wherever he pleased ; it was
imperative upon the State to see that those were protected who
were not able to protect themselves. It was well to say protection
had been extended to sixty or seventy Coolies, but what became
of the thousands who were kidnapped ?—(Opposition cheers.)
certain documents had been called for, which they were now told
by the Government were not in existence. The only misfortune,
with reference to the matter, was that the discussion of to-night
only allowed Hon. Gentlemen to express their opinions, and nothing
more could be done.
Mr. 13110THERTON having moved that the House do adjourn,
Lord STANLEY hoped that the House would not adjourn until
some determination was arrived at. He trusted, however, that the
Hon. Gentleman (Mr. V. Smith) would not press his motion for
the production of a nonexisting document.—(Laughter tram the
Opposition.)
Mr. WAKLEY complained that no reference had been made
by the Noble Lord (Stanley) to the treatment of the Coate
women and children. Ile haul listened with much pleasure to the
statements made by Mr. Hogg—statements which entitled him to
the gratitude and thanks of that House mid of the public.—(Hear.)
If the system adopted here were one of justice, that adopted to.
wards the colonies in the Mauritius could not be just too. Since
this matter had been last brought before the House, additional In.
formation had been laid before them but that information
was such as ought only to induce a further delay. The
Honourable Member for Beverley had clearly pointed out
that the additional information ought to make them
pause before they carried out a system which he believed
to be fraught with danger. Some most influential gentlemen waited
last year on the Right Hon. Baronet, the First Lord of the Trea-
sury, relative to the existence of slavery in India, and it appeared
that the /tight Hon. Baronet had previously considered Ile subject.
He (Mi. Wekley) had seen those parties since, and theFhad anti.
ciliated that some measure would have been brought forward on
this subject. They considered it as an opprobrium on this country
which haul done so much for the abolition of slavery generally, that
it had done nothing to abolish slavery in India. He
did hope that the Noble Lord the Secretary for the
Colonies would abandon the intention which he had expressed of
still embracing the emigration of Hill Coolies to the Mauritius;
and he further hoped, that the Noble Lord would present the
House with all the information on the loather which had arrived
at the Colonial-office before they went. farther. Then, the House,
being in possession of that information, would be able to decide
with much more confidence on the question.
Mr. C. BUI.LEIt said he should support the Government men.
sure, as a good, a wise, and a salutary measure.—(Hear, hear.)
He had always thought that the fairest emigration should be at.
lowed—all that was required was, in his miud, a regulation as to
the mode in which that should be carried out, and he thought mea.
sures sufficiently precautionary had been proposed by the
Noble Lord' the late Secretary for the Colonies in
the year 184 O. The Noble Lord proposed that precautions
should be taken by the Governor. General of India to prevent fraud

there, that similar precautions should be adopted in the Mauritius,
and that the labourer should be at liberty to make whatever en.
gagements he thought proper when he arrived at the Maurititt.
He said that he agreed in the object of the Government, and he
could not but express his gratification that the removal of one
class of gentlemen from one side of the House, and the possession
of their places by another, was followed, as it always sots., by
removing the obstacles in the way of sound and practical measures.
—(" Hear," and laughter.) He could not, however, agree
to_ the manner in which the measure had been in.
troduced, and he thought the Government were charge.
able with want of due precaution. lie did not see
why the Noble Lord should issue an Order in Council a few day?
before the opening of Parliament, which could have no other effect
than to unsettle men's minds,—(Hear.) It was an essentially medi.
tative question, because the Noble Lord took four or five months •
to collect and work, out ,his idea,' but he thought it extraordinary
that the East Ind.i.‘Company.:wert not consulted on the measure,
because, Without,their consent, it would be perfectly nugatory. The
Noble ird had said lie could not grant papers which slid not exist.
—(Hear.) However; whets the subject would be brought before '
Parliament, he could assure the Noble Lord of that hearty co.ope-:
ration on his part which had been denied by Hon. Gentlemen Opp&
site to the late Government.—(Cheers.)
Lord STANLEY said, that the Hon. Gentleman ins mistaken'
in supposing that he had had no communieatlim witht bef.East India
Company. Ile had very frequent- communications with Lord
Ellenborough when President .of the Board of 'Control ; and when
he said that no instructions had been given, he ought to recollect
that the motion was for the production of papers and despatches,
which lie had no means of obtaining except through Lord Ellen..
borough.
Mr. LINDESAY said that having come in a vessel front India,
freighted with Hill Coolies, he could not reconcile to himself th*
inducements that were held out to them to emigrate, but on' the • .
other hand he did not see how they could be prevented Roth
emigrating if they chose, and liked to get to the best market ,
for their labour.—(Hear, hear.) • •

After afew words from Mr. C. nvi.LETI, Mr. BINGHAM BA.
RI and Mr. Iloco,

Mr. FOItIIES said that he entirely approved of a system of
emigration to the Mauritius under proper regulations.
Mr. V. SMITH replied. He rejoiced that the discussion had
taken place, as it had elicited information of which (he House Was
not in possession, and he augured ill for the measure from the ad.
mission that the Noble Lord had not the co-operation of the East
India Company, nor had given ally instructions to the Governor.

General. As there were no instructions, therefore, he should
withdraw his motion.

LAW OF EVIDENCE.
Mr. C. BULLER stated that he should not proceed with the
Bill of which he bad given notice respeCting the law of evidence.
Motion accordingly withdrawn.
NAVIGATION OF THE NILE.
Dr. BOWRING postponed his motion for Copies or Extracts of
any Correspo»denee which has taken place at the Foreign Office,
on the subject of a claim put forward by the British Consul at
Alexandria, lot the right to navigate the internal waters of Egypt
under the British Flag, till this day week.
The Buildings Regulation Bill (No. `2!, and the Boroughs Int.
provsmcnt llill (No. 2), were earls read a second time, and ordered
to be committed.

MARRIAGES (IRELAND) BILL.
The Report on this Bin was brought up.
CORN IMPORTATION ACT.
The bringing up of the Report was fixed for this evening,
The Apprentices Regulation Bill was read a third time and
passed.
The House then adjourned at One o'Clock.

f r

HOUSE OF LORDS, Marcie 1.
The LOIID CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Wool-
sack shortly after Five u'Cloek.
The Earl of ROSEBERY presented petitions from
places in Stirling, Dumbarton, and Linlithgow, proving • -
tor a total repeal of the Corn-laws. The Noble Larldis-
sented from the prayer of the petitioners, but expressed •
an opinion that some alteration should be made in these.
hiws.

'4 •.I

The Duke of RICHMOND presented a petition from . • -
ing of corn in the city of London, stating
the owners and occupiers of 'mills engaged in the grind-
sent duty on flour did not aftiial them a sufficient pre-
tection,; that they had hearil4ith regret,thata,naeaAnre
was ahtni tti he introdneed to Ower that duty, and they
tbat the pre-
prayed their Lordships not to give their consent to the
measure.