The Sun.
London, England, 1842-06-07 00:00:00

affixed by law.; but the difficulty was to discover that bribery, I, towns could do more than they could to put me end to
and to show it to the satisfaction of those who were to be the corruption.—( Hear.) He considered that the Noble Lord,
judges and the juries of the Houses of Parliament. in introducing the clause which admitted the proof of bribsry
The Bill which he proposed to introduce did to be given before the proof of ageney, had struck a greater
./10t as much direct any new or increased penalties blow et bribery than anything that had ever been adopose
fur bribery, as intend to endeavour to ' bring to light, He believed that although the Noble Lord's Bill would not
by a more efficacious plan than had been hitherto proposed, have the effect of putting an end to bribery, it would prevent
the bribery which had taken place. He believed that the it in a great measure : and such being his opinion, he would
Act passed in the last Session of Parliament which did not give it his cordialsuppom.
make it necessary to prove agency in the first instance, al- i Mr. HUME was convinced if Hon. Members were sincere
though curtailed of much of its properties in the other House, !in their wish to put down bribery they would succeed. He
had yet been found to have considerable good effect; however : thought every party ought to be treated alike, and that every
it did not reach the desired object which he expected his Bill man coming forward and giving money in the shape of a bribe
to attain. He would state what he proposed under different .at elections, ought to be punished.—(llear.) He, however,
heads. The first part of the Bill which he proposed would be I believed that mitil the constituency was enlarged, bribery
with a view of preventing compromises, and would refer to i would never be put down. No good could be effected till they
disclosures of bribery at Election Committees. He should ! got the ballot--( A laugh.)
propose that parties who asserted bribery bad taken i Mr. ROEBUCK thought that when an Hoe. Member
place should be obliged to state the names of the I came to the table to be sworn, and gave in his qualification,
parties alleged to be bribed some time beore !he should also be required to give in the expenses of Iris elec-
the Committee stet. He proposed likewise to insert in this I tion.—( Hear, hear. )
part of the Bill that there should be indemnity from penalties I Lord SANDON believed that the adoption of such a course
to witnesses in certain cases. When a full disclosure was I would in no manner indicate what had taken place at the elec-
made of acts of bribery, the Committee, in the mode which Mon. There were many expenses incident to the excitement
had been agreed to with respect to past acts of 'bribe, y, should j of an election in a large constituency, such as music, and other
have the power to report tea the House that certain witnesses i things, which could not be avoided ; and, looking at the whole
had made a full disclosure of those acts of bribery, and that ; subject, he must confess he could not me his way out of it,
they (the witnesses) should be indemnified f-om any penalties I unless the House admitted certain expenses to be incurred.
to which they might be otherwise liable. He also proposed, in Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
the sane part of the Bill, that Members, and candidates, and PETITIONS.
their agents, might be examined before the Committee. The Mr. Alderman HUMPHERY presented a petition from
next part of the Bill was intended to prevent concealment, by 360 of his constituents, against any reduction in the duty on
any fraud or Compromise of an election petition. In the first furriga boots and shoes.
part of the Bill he secured, as far as possible, that the names be Mr. LA BOUCHERE presented a pet Lien (we did not hear
given of the parties alleged to have been bribed. In this part from what- place) against any alteration in the duly on foreign
of the Bill he proposed that the Committee, in certain cases, if hemp.
they were satisfied that any compromise had been made, Mr. THORNELY presented three petitions from Liverpool,
and the proceedingshavingcome to aclosemhey believed that tire signed by 2,600 persons, and the petitioners stated that
petition was withdrawn in consequence of that compromise, they regretted that the amended tariff did not contain a reduc-
that they should report to the House such their belief, and that thin in the duty on foreign sugar. They stated many reasons
the House rhould give their authority to proceed in such way why the duty should be equal, and they prayed the House to
as might appear advisable. He also proposed that a solicitor or take the subject into its immediate consideration, with a view to
agent should be named by the Speaker, or general Committee, assimilating the duty on foreign sugar, and stesar the growth
for the purpose of proceeding with the matter of complaint.. It of our possessions. Also a petition signed by 204 wholesale and
it should be complained that bribery was coinmitted by the retail grocers and coffee dealers of Liverpool to the same effect.
sitting Members, the Election Committee was to have the same Lord SANDON presented a petition from the operative
power of declaring the election void, i,s if the parties complain • rope-makers of Liverpool, complaining of the reduction con-
ing had proceeded with the prosecution—the inquiry to be tun- templated in the duty on foreign . cordage. The petitieners
ducted in the same manner as Election Committees now were ; stated that a great amount of foreign cordage was brought into
the costs to be levied on the sitting Member, if they or their Liverpool and exported to foreign parts.
agents were proved guilty of the bribery, in the other case to THE TAhIFF.
be levied on the petitioner. In ease a petition complaining et '1 he House then went into Committee on the Customs At.
extensive bribery in a certain Mace, were presented, and that the On the clause regulating the duty nn foreign timber being
petitioner was deterred from proceeding with the prosecution proposed,
from a fear of the cost, he proposed that such a petition Mr. ROEBUCK' proposed that the duty on colonial
be treated in the same manner as any other election petition, and foreign timber should be equal, but lie spoke in so
and the prosecution to be conducted by the so:icitor named by extremely low a tone that it was a considerable time
the .Speaker, and the proceedings might likewise terminate like before we could hear him. He said the colonies derived no
the proceedings in the other cases, by a derision that the seat benefit whatever es colonists from a differential duty. He,
was void. By all those provisions he intended to prevent can took the trade in pine. In the year ending January, 1842
didates from expecting that by means of a large distribution of the amount of pine imported from the colonies in America
money, to the amount of 4,000/. or 5,0001., either by them- was 614,057 loads of pine timbet. From Europe the amount
selves or their friends, they could obtain seats in that House-- was 131,468. He would take the prices of two years, 1841-
that a check rnight be imposed upon those persons anxious for the 1842. Foreign timber was delivered in London, duty free, at
honour of a seat in that House, so that they would not obtain 21. T6s. the load, Canadian timber at 4/. os. Bd. There was a
that object by means of bribery, and would at the same time duty on foreign timber of 2/. 155., which made the price
lose a considerable sum of money. The object of persons Si. I Is., and this was for the best article that could be got.
bribed was very different ; they only sought for immediate re- The duty on Colonial timber was 10s., and this for a bad ar-
ward ; and there were two modes of proceeding with regard to title, which made the price 41. 15s. 84., so that by our ad-
those who received bribes in boroughs. The first mode to re- mirable fiscal regulations, the best article that could be ob-
rnedy that evil was to disfranchise the borough, and he owned tained was at the price of 5/. I Is., while the worst article
that seemed to him to be the preferable mode when the borough amounted to as much as 4/. 15s. Bd. How was this a pro-
was very small, and only enjoyed its right to send Members to tection to the colonies ? and what a loss was this to the people
Parliament by prescription. But with regard to large towns, of this country, when they considered that the red
such as Liverpool, he did not think that mode would pine from Canada was one-third less in value than
be the best. The other remedy was to suspend that of the pine from Europe. The revenue would
the power of the boroughs to return Members of be benefited by the proposal which he submitted to the
Parliament for one .or two Parliaments, or for a certain number Committee.—( Hear, hear.) He found that the revenue de-
of years, but he confessed he did not think that was so much in rived from the importation of timber last year amounted alto-
the spirit of the Constitution. But then came the difficulty gether to 708,3081. ; and the number of loads of timber im-
which he had foreseen as much as any one, namely, that of ported was 745,000. Now if they imposed a duty of 20s. a
carrying any of those Bills into a law. There was first the in- load, even supposing that the quantity imported did not increase,
quiry before the Committee, and perhaps they had to make the they would have a revenue of 745,000/„ being an increase of
same inquiry again at the bar of the House, and aft, r the ins- nearly 40,0001. upon the revenue that had been last year rea-
portant political business of the Session postponed this inquiry lised. They need not be deterred from adopting the proposal
from time to time, the Bill did not go op to the House of Lords he recommended by any fear of injuring Canada. The timber
till the second or third Session of Parliament; and when it trade in that country was now a mere gambling speculat'on,
came to the House of Lords, they were disposed to look strip- which gave employment to a rude class, only very limited in
gently upon the subject, and demanded a great deal of evidence, numbers, and which did* not benefit the population generally.
the consequence of which was that the witnesses who established Again, he did not think that our shipping interest would sut-
the case in the first instance were not forthcoming, or the evi- fer from the proposed alteration so much as some might boa-
deuce given was not such as was given before in consequence of gine. He believed that the greater part of the vessels which
the parties being desirous that the borough should not be dis- would cease to be engaged in the timber trade of Canada
franchised. Thus, after one or two years were spent, it re- would hereafter be employed in carrying on the trade to
peatedly happened that when the Bill came before the House of which the late changes in the tariff would give rise. The
Lords, the evidence was in their opinion not sufficient to sup- Hon. and Learned Gentleman concluded by moving that the
port the disfranchisement of the borough, or at least not suffi- duties oar colonial and foreign timber should hereafter be hOs.
dent to please the legal Lords in that House. He had, in per load.
1834, attempted to remedy those evils by proposing a certain Sir H. DOUGLAS could not approve of the proposal of the
Committee who should inquire into the subject. That Bill was Hon. and Learned Gentleman. It was impossible to deny
altered in the House of Lords, after considerable deliberation, that it would seriously affect the interests of Canada. He de.
and a new shape was given to that Bill. He did not object to flounced the policy pursued with regard to their colonies as a
the principle of the Bill as altered. The alteration was rninous policy. 'lle timber trade had the effect of clearing
that instead of a separate investigation into these matters by the land and preparing the soil for the occupation of emigrants,
the two Houses of Parliament, there should be a joint invest- and he contended against the policy of any measure that
tion, and that the subject should be examined in such a motile would discourage the trade.—( Hear.) Ile contrasted
as might be analagous to an examination by a Grand Jury, the -certainty of the colonial trade with the uncertainty
the case coming before a tribunal composed of the Houses of of the foreign trade, and wished to see it kept entire, by its
Lords and Commons. It had been proposed that the Commis- ' great and indispensible link, differential duties. He concluded
skin should consist of seven Members of the House of Com- by reading a tribute to the commercial and political greatness of
mons and five of the Lords,' with a Judge to preside. Now, England, from the pen of Charles Dupin, which he ascribed
he thought that there was a great objection to a Judge pre- to the greatness of her colonial system. 'I he same opinions
siding in those matters. He thought that they so much con- had been expressed by other -political writers; he had never
cerned Parliament and the rights of legislation that they ought surrendered himself to the systems of free trade advocated by
to be decided by Members of the Cords and Commons with rut gentlemen opposite, but he had agreed to an examination of
the intervention of a Judge. He thought also that the the question, with a view to secure the greatest benefit to one
number proposed equal to that of the jury was unnecessarily interest, with a fair amount of protection to the other. But
large. He thought that if there were five Commoners and tour if they made themselves dependent on foreign nations for their
Peers, or four Peers and three Commoners, making a supply, they should break down the springs of their greatness
commission of seven or nine, it would be sufficient, and prosperity, and
and it would be better, instead of a Judge, to have " Living, should forfeit fair renown,
the Presidency .of a Peer appointed by the Crown. And, doubly dying, should go down
He had already said that all the Members should bo appointed To the vile dust from whence they sprung,
by the Crown. He should propose to give the Commissioner Unwept, unhonoured, and unsung.
the power of seeking the assistance of a Judge as was done by Mr. P. M. STEWART said, as his Hon. and Gallant Friend
Committees of the House of Lords in judicical inquiries, Per, who had just sat down had passed a high eulogium on the tariff,
baps it would nut have occurred to' him calling for the assist he must say that he thought that measure had received as much
ante of the Lords in these cases, if the Lords themselves mad welcome from that (the Opposition) side of the House as from
not taken up a similar proposition; butes they had done so, and that by which it was propounded.—( Hear, hear.) That
his consideration was brought to the subject, be thought it tariff, with all its faul..s, was one which ought to be hailed by this
was as good a rule as could be proposed of carrying on these commercial country as the charter of much good now, arid of
investigations. The next part of the subject was, bow tar snore hereafter. In one respect, however, he thought it was sadly
these investigations should be carried. He proposed that the defective, namely, in the proposal with respect to the timber
results of the inquiry should be laid before both Houses of duties. 'I he colonies were, in his judgment, the best marked of
Parliament, who would legislate in the several cases according this country, and they appeared likely to become yet more eaten.
to their peculiar circumstances. It would be necessary that sive. His (Sir. Stewart's) complaint of the measure proposed by
the House of Commons should in the first place address the Government (and he did not treat it as a party question, but as a
Crown to appoint the Commission, and that either by great national question) was that it would so far prostrate the
an address to the Crown, or by an order of the strength and means of the Canadians to carry on competition
House, the Commission should be assisted in its (and competition was desirable), that the consumer would
inquiries by the Attorney-General. There were two suffer in the sequel. . The Timber Committee which sat in
other clauses in the Bill which he had to propose; 18.35, arid of which the late Lord Sydenham was chairman,
one of these had for its object the abolition of the bribery oath. had recommended that the reduction in the differential duties
--(Hear, hear.) He was convinced that the oath did not on timber should not exceed 15s. in the then existing duties.
tend to prevent bribery; whilst it too often happened, that to That recommendation went even beyond the evidence taken
the crime of bribery was superadded the awful crime of per- before the Committee, which did not recommend a greater
jury.—(Hear, hear.) The other provision which he proposed reduction than 7s. or Bs. Lord Srdenham, last year, in his
was in accordance with a suggestion made in the course of this letters from Canada on this subject, mentioned it as particularly
evening's discussion. It was, that any promise or gift after the desirable that the recommendation of the Committee of 18:35
election should be held and deemed bribery.—( Hear, hear.) should be adhered to; and what he (Mr. S.) complained of
He was aware that in the Bill which he would have the honour was, that that recommendation was not adhered to in the pre-
to propose, there were Some provisions not in conformity with sent proposition of the Government. Until the evict, nee given
the practices of the Courts of Law. One of these was an in- before the Committee of 1835 could be refuted, he (Mr. S.)
demnity to persons giving evidence before the Commission, considered that no alteration in the duties should take place.
This might be objected to as prospective indemnity, and in so The Hon. Gentlenian concluded by moving "That the duty on
far an encouragement to offend ; besides, it might be said that
"
colonial timber be reduced to 5s per load, and the duty on fu-
the Bill would, in this case, give to Parliament that power of reign timber to 355. ; and that the measurement of deals, fur
the
pardon which was the prerogative of the Crown alone. Heduty, be taken in conformity with the
admitted the force of the first objection, that it recommendation
Committee of 1835.
the
did hold out to persons likely to commit an it The question having been put,
fence the prospective pardon, but he thought that it was ne- Sir. MLA DSTON E said that if the proposition of the lion.
'Smeary to give to the Commission the same power of enabling Member fur Bath were true, the propositions of the Govern-
persons concerned in an offence to come forward and give evi.. meat would have a tendency to mitigate them. What he him-
deuce for the sake of justice, without fear of personal come- self stated was conclusive against the adoption of his own plan.
quences to themselves, as the Crown possessed even in re- He admitted that his plan was not without utility in point of
spect to the worst of crimes, such as murder, in which the revenue ; but that was not the only considerati n which
Crpwri had the power of giving pardon and indemnity to any weighed with the Government. There were political reasons
witness who was not the principal in the commission of the
which influenced them still more. He now came to the pro-
act. The Crown had that power, and, with the advice of legal Position of the Hon. Gentleman who had spoken last, who sari
Advisers, held out the promise of such Pardo'', ; but no one could that he was &Maid the colonial interest would be laid pros-
say that this was holding out a prospective pardon for the com- trate by the Government proposition. He was inclined to
mission of such enures. It was also objected that the Bill think that Iris Hon. Friend found it difficult to steer between
would give the power of enforcing answers which would crimi- his free trade and his interest as a colonial proprietor.—
who was benefited by the proposition of the Government.(Leughter. ) His Hon. Friend asked what was gained, and
nate the evitneSs, a thing not recognised in the Courte of
Law ; but he Isle satisfied that if they wished to prevent
bribery at elections, they must adopt What interest rather was not greatly advantaged by the Immo-
__
the praertige of the Courts of Law. T measures going beyond
he Noble Lord then read sition? Who was there ing
extracts from the Report of Mr. Banks' Committee, in the that would not gain by it? 1.00 tr
to the general nature of these propositions, it was true that a
, case of the late Warren Hastings, from the reports of great sacrifice of revenuetboglt there were reasot s for not
was made, but were
. there not reasons
' Lord Coke, and other authorities, from which be argued Mr that sacrifice . He
that in masters' of Parliamentary inquiry, the investi. adopting the recommendation of 1835. That Committee pro-
gations most be limited only by keeping in view the int- timed their recommendation as an isolated measure. and not as
mutable principles of jostice, and they must not be restricted by connected with any general alteration of their commercial policy.
the norms and cophmred practice of the Court. of Law. He hen he recollected that the British grower of wooa wade eo
did not think that the practice of bribery was confined to party, complaints, he thought it was rather unreasonable for the toe
or the lep.ders of petty, bgt that iodivtdieals who had no regard Metal growers to set down the advantage held out as nothing.
to patty dtd not scruple to spend large sums to obtain seats Now what was the actual amount of the reductions they were
in that House.—( Hear, hear.) It was not the Legislature going to make ? With respeet to deals it was small, it' they
alone that could expect to put down the practice of bribery, al. looked at it es money, but in other respects it was not. Then
though it was theirduty to adopt all measures for that end with respect to timber, the reduction was much larger ; the .
whist we re consistent tvilh the principles of justice ; still Itwas pre sent duty on tonber from the colon'es averaged 1 I s., while
his hope that the increasing morality of the country would give the duty on timber from the Baltic was 565. fid., so that there
rise to feelings which wogld pot allgw there practices to OM.- was, a protectiop of 455. MI. It had been saki that the present
tinge. lie would not detain the House further thap by moving duties had the effect of maintaining equal and fair conmetition.
for leave t 4) bring in the Bill. - • He denied that. they did so ; and such being the case' it was
Sir R. PEEji emtve his cordial support to the motion of clear that the present duties required alteration, and he had nut
the Noble Lord. There were gt the present moment three heard any arguments adduced, which showed that the pro-
difficulties in the way of discovering bribery at elections— posed alteration would affect the colonial timber trade.
4rst, when a Committee was appointed to inquire into the In the month of April, a meeting was held in Liverpool, mid
right of an indiyidual to a seat, if the object was incontider- one of the resolutions was, that the prices then current in
able to the petitioner, in proportion to the sufficiency of h;s North America were below the rates at which timber could be
private fortune to bear the expense, the net i tien a gs withdrawn
, profitably expected, even under the proposed tariff. In a rim
end the bribery went unnoticed and unpuniabed. This was a ettl4r of Messrs. Chanoner, timber merchants, of Liverpool,
matter of feequent occurrence, and he thought it might to he it was stated that the price, in 1841, was 4/. 7s. 6d., and that
remedied. Me eltmoglit that when a Committee was appointed the price of deals was is. fid. a foot: while, in ue present
it ought to have the deety impesed on it of stating that the in, year, it was only Is. ed. These were most important facts, as
quiry was broken or, and ought to b, continued gt the pee, bearing CU the case. They :showed that the whole of the Bettie
expense. He thought that the Noble Lord had provided t ado had been carried on with advantage ; yet, although a
a remedy for this evil. A case might occur in ehich the otimulus had been applied to the colonies, the trade had de-
bribery of the returned Member, was known to the opposite creased, He, therefore, submitted that the arrangement of
party, wlifs however might shrink from the expense of a petty the
iron, or from the ex sure of his own corrupt practices. In Sir C, NAPIER would make some observations on what had
5,,,h a ease he Agreed with the Noble Lord, it would be right fallen from the Hon. and Learned Member for Bath. Thequiry with that the House should institute an in Government was a tair and equitable arrangement.
, 0 w.seoltt a petition ;, Hon. Gentleman stated that European timber was far prefer-
but he thought that there should be otte caution its to granting able to Canadian timber ;
rbut this was a mistake, for although
a Committee, under circumstances which might induce parties the best Norway timber might be better than the best Canadian
to create a vexatious annoyance, at the public expense, to a The HMI.
case', berolT the public. should • incur the ex, lasted neßiber honestly and fairly returned. He thought that for tGimentelemmyaentbgaednearlalluldyedthetottibmebleernwtbas(nifottinbleettee•
better. The
frigates
that' PurPuses recoguieances should be required of petitioners had lasted built of Canadian timber, and said that they seldeni
beyond three years. Bu' he (Sir C. Napier) bad known
pinenseeveroyf the inquiry. With respect to the proposi- then) to last three' years and a half, and if the war had con•
thoughtßill fo I.
hdoeld be tinued he believed they would have lasted seven or eight years.
accessary to consider that part of
before
great diMeelty PO many of the countries named iv the reciprocity treaty
evidence lion of disfranchisement, hetbe 't
the House's equld sell and build their ships much cheaper than we could.
would
of Parliament as .04(.4,e the Commission. He agreed with the i ( Hear, hear.) Owing to this, we had lost the trade in the
Noble Lard that it would hie biter to leave the appointment of 1 South Seas. He hoped the House would never lend itself to
the tribunal to the Crown, instead of the majpritigs or the two 1 any measure that would have the eft' ct of injuring the navy.
was perfectly ready to support 43e . lie should, therefore,
vise to pleteining the Arne. ,re
in the case - ' r osh' - '
Pill, or even to ficiVe it a retrospective effect, a$ of pop . ;Jou., give his most decided negattve to the
Houses of Parliament. He
it would beperfectly • 11r II I
Hp thoeght
.. - . Ulf E, amidst lout . ,
I cries of tt Oh, oh," said we had
the borough of N.ewesseett.of the present
right to have a clause in this ili}l, ieWstikh it should not pass lost the South Sea trade in consequence
r for system,'
tor two months to come, subjecting to the' pmeafte defe 'pee theeefore, so far from the Hon, 317 c the t Bath's
1 ""itloti
who should have been proved before the present Corhmittepelo hlenig ap ittjurg it would tend to resuscitate .. I:4( e,h Give
With respect i t tens Omits • h- i anal' food, ;Tod sheep Mother, and
}day temp guilty of bribery at the last election.
with many shay • ("es' 'r
' and nay.g. t them
to treatiog, net hetight legislation was attended
the iaeln
dilficultiee. It .M es IMpoasible to say when corrupt treating I better, than any other country in
Gal! world.l
commenced, or what Were ho be tlite limits of i reply to the statements of the Hon. an b . cant .bember,
legitimate hospitality to 'a matil'S friends or hulheretute ! l-ie eohtended there was he comparison to e. drawn ether
There was *other point with respect to which 'the laithwas in a 1 (tie- sfate of thii country if oip, the period spoken of y
1 M. Duhln aall h ed le tvir and England
most uneetiefactory'mate, that was the ;payment of conveyance . ,- , s Europe. w a el% g ~ ,
merce of the country
bills. He helieved that it 9,9 perfectly allowable to convey I had all the trade of the world. The'ome.
_. , e ,
electors to the poll and back again. Fa- hie own emrt, hp had i • I duties should be abolished, for the
required that' differentia ; 1
never passed through a place where a contested election d and nature system the
" , sooner the couritry returhed to e semi .
taking place, withuet seeing a greet number of carhages pro- ; !':witter.
Alt:were two before the
vided for the elector,. Hy knew that it was the" -constant I . BARING said there
h. propositions..
'
practice of electors oot to exempt their priVil.ese unless they, 1 House ; one' Of them was to
d h voM. 1‘1! than 1;30
were saved the trouble of walking to the p? 1,1. 'He *as ammo ! tirely, fa Which he was not prepare, e . Ore 1
that sudden and violent doterferenee with that praciiee would 1 Governtnege bar! paid a 'differential duty, and Inc 4(1 cod-
; the of the' electors, of their frith- I tinued O. But it was a vet different thing'lvhen the Go-
prevent the exercise, on ~ part
ial duty less than he had
erns*, Hs thought the N,oble Istird was right in proposing that vernmeht now proposed a -different
in
, of
high
should species Ai 410 Pir • '• .
• , ent e for dinners or otherwise, .brought forward. This, as he was i favour
Miler
should he cermicleCed ad "and he felt a kind
ripen ; )-..ut, after they .had done that, differential duty, he could support,
lie was Afraid they .vrciuld jle,ave tike lair with respect to treating of melancholy satisfaction in finding that his proposition
in a vary imperfect stpte. ' He belicyCie(tiat the leading persorta was not so destructive as bad teen ::,uppo:,!ed.-.77-cfiesr. ) .