The Sun.
London, England, 1845-07-24 00:00:00

SLAVE TRADE.

Sir R. PEEL took the opportunity to present some corre-
spondence with respect to the slave trade which, on a former
omeasion, ha dld not think it his nuty to produce.
NEW ZEALAND—ADJOURNED DEBATE.

Capt. RODS resumed the debate. He said that he wished
to knew in what capacity the New Zealand Company came
before the House ? He wished to know whether they came there
as supplicants, or as patriots demanding redress, or whether
they wanted a loan of a sum of money ? The answer that he
received from the Member for Cockermouth the other night
was, that if he came to the New Zealand house he would show
him the accounts. He did not think that it was a proper busi-
ness for them to borrow money from the country when their
capital was said to be 300,000/., and they had not paid up
100,0001. He thought that they had forfeited all their char-
ters. The Honourable Gentleman then commented on
the conduct of the missionaries of New Zealand, and
said that he was bound to say that though many
of them were very exemplary characters, yet there were
some who looked too much to the gain of worldly treasures.
He would not mention the merits or demerits of the New
Zealand Company, but he would say, that the natives would
not pay two-pence an acre for land, and they would not pay
custom-heuee duties ; and if they sent out 10,000 men to the
colonies they could not enforce them to do so. If the matters
in New Zealand became worse, it would be necessary to keep
up a native army and a large navy in New Zealand. Jealousy
troald thereby be created amongst the natives, and the most evil
consequenees would result. There were only two motives by
which to keep the natives in awe, aed those were fear and re-
spect. There could not be a better man in the world than
the Bishop of New Zealand, but there was a set of low-minded
men in New Zealand, who termed themselves missionaries,
and those men had done all they could to poison the minds of
the natives. They had, in the Mahore language, designated
the English settlers as devils. What he (Captain Rous) would
advise would be to send out-a:Brigadier-General with 1,000
men in two ships of war, and he would deprive the New Zea-
land Company of their charter, but would give them a fair
remuneration for what they had done. He would guarantee
their land to the settlers, and give them remuneration for their
Tabour hitherto performed, and he would abolish the protectors
of the native., aid would appoint more protectors of Europeans.
Mr. WARD explained that the 40,000/. to which the Hon.
and Gallant Officer had alluded, had been divided into 1,600
shares, and the title deeds had been deposited in the
hands of the Honourable Member for Essex (Mr. H.
Palmer.) He would remind the Honourable Member
for Westminster, that when the New Zealand Company sold
their laid to the settlers 15s. in the pound of the produce of
the land was paid to furnish labour for the land so sold. He
was very much disposed to agree with the Hon. and Gallant
Member that it was not necessary to have a representative
Government in New Zealand, and he was much pained to hear
his Hon. Friend the Member for Liskeard dwell se much upon
that point. If he had had the conduct of this question in the
last debate upon it, he would not have divided the House upon
it. He would have rested upon the immense admission of the
tag Right Honourable Baronets opposite. This was a national
question. Ten thousand men and women had left their
native country, and had given up the advantages of civilised
life, and it was painful to see their prospects blighted by these
squabbles.-,-(Cheers from the Ministerial benches, followed by
counter-cheers from the Opposition.) He need not say that
he did-not like that cheer. He could wish to see these squab.
bles V an end. The first duty of a Government, taking all
the circumstances into consideration, was to take steps to put
an end to the present evil system, and they could only do that
upon clear and definite principles. What had been the
conduct of all the officials in New Zealand? Why
it had been to treat all the settlers as enemies.
He tboaght it a most unfortunate circumstance that the Go-
vertameat of this eeuntry should have been entrusted to such
hands as. Captain Hobson, and Captain Fitzroy, the former pa-
ralysed by disease, and the latter with a mind harassed, if not
deranged, by the circumstances which he could not contronl.
He aid not make any distinction between the two Governors ;
one was nearly as bad, or at least as incompetent as the other.
It had been said that if the Northern Star steam packet had
not arrived with 220 soldiers the colony might have been lost,
send this was answered by quoting an opinion of the Noble Lord's
nea.r him, The Member for the City of London, that one
hundred soldiers were sufficient to preserve the peace of
the island. —( Hear, hear.) That might at first sight ap-
pear a very plausible argument, but the Noble Lord
assertion had been made in reference to a country not divided
with fearful virulence against itself, net when the people were
cutting each other's throats, not where rietive and colonist
Were inspired with animosity and engaged , in downright war-
less, but of s country at peace both among themselves and
among 'the foreign settlers. —( Hear, hear.) But how had the
alarming state of the colony been treated by the Government ?
Why, atl regard for the property of the natives had been for-
gotten : the disputes were alone between the Government and
the Company, disputes as disreputable to the one as the other.
The Government did not care for the practical matters of the
case Involving the interests and safety of 10,000 English settlers,
and a vast amount of native population.—( Hear, hear.) This
pettifoggirsg oondact was more especially unworthy of Lord
Stanley, and he was sorry to see the two Right Hon. Baronets
opposite adopting and defending that conduct. If allowed to
carry out their Own liberal views, for he was willing to admit
the good and laudable intentions of the Right Hon. Gentleman
at the head of her Majesty's Government, and the Secretary of
the Home Department. But they were shackled by their
colleague the Secretary for the Colonies, who impeded their
Measures and frustrated their best endeavours. Why did they
net manfully resist such baneful influence, and boldly carry out
their wishes.
Lord J. RVSSELL—" Nec sine to possum, nec alien vivere
beam !"—( Load laughter. )
Mr. WARD—The Noble Lord near him had suggested a
very nosite quotation, " Nec sine to possum, nec eheu vivere
teem's. That was indeed too true, but he conjured the Right
Hon. Baronets to protest against and repudiate the conduct of
their colleagues, to deal promptly with the danger now in-
creasing ,rapidly in the colony, and, by an act of worthy
liberality,- protect alike the settler and the native.
Mr. G. PALMER hoped, considering the situation of four-
teen thOusaud British subjects, that sufficient protection would
be afforded.' They bad not even been allowed to protect them-
selves ; and from necessity they had formed themselves into
militia bodies, to resist the aggressions of the natives. He was
Crite certain that neither Lord Stanley nor the New Zealand
ompany would wish to promote any difficulty or disagree-
Terme. If there were any complaints to be made let them be
referred to the Government, and he was quite certain they
would dO.all in their power to promote the proper interests of
the
Sir C. NAPIER. observed that the island of New Zealand
was a most fertile spot, and susceptible of the highest improve-
ment, and he thought that the Government had not extended
sufficient protection to its colonists. Several murders
had bees committed in the vicinity of the Bay of
Matadi, Dud the murderers, with one o except'l n, had
esetiPed unpunished. The only protection that
was afforded
was derived from a Fiench frigate which happened to be in the
hay at the time. Independent of those murders, several out.
rages had taken place at Falkland, which also went unpunished.
It did appear to him that the colonists, seeing the Government-
so supine to assisting them, had considered that they were left
to defend themselves from the aggressions of the natives in the
best manner they could. He had no doubt that the disastrous
proceedings at Wairau, which went unpunished, constituted
the primary instigations to further excesses. Having stated
his opinion of the great neglect of the Colonial Department in
e
preventing the massacre at Wairau, h would allude to the last
catastrophe that had taken place. The first dispatch of
Governer Fitzroy stated that the natives seemed to
entertain a general dislike to the British Government.
The natives cut down the flag-staff at Auckland
four nor was it to be wondered at, when a
half-ailed people saw that they could cut down a Bag-
staff with impunity; they would cut it down a second, a third,
and a fourth time. He would allude now to the Gallant Go-
verndr's dispatch, which was a most extraordinary document.
Althoukkb.a had said Auckland was in danger, nothing for its

defence bad been done. A letter had been written from a ma-
gistrate in the Bay of Islands which required the presence of
the Governor there, bnt he refused, on the ground that he
could not leave the seat of Government. Such conduct was not
in any way defensible. He was persuaded that if the Governor
or any of of experience had been there, the colony would
have been saved from the disastrous fate which it eventually
suffered. He would ask what would have been the fate of the
125 British subjects in the Bay of Islands, if an American frigate
had not been there to succour them ? Did not this fact furnish
a disgraceful reflection on the English Government? His Gal-
lant Friend opposite had said he thought that the Governor
acted perfectly right in remaining at the seat of government,
but would it not have been better to have sent back the North
Star to have armed all the colonists, to have imported more
troops, and have attacked at once John Heki, and
prevented him from taking possession of Auckland. He
thought it his duty, as a British officer, to state these
facts ; the only manner in which he could account for the con-
duct of some of the officers at New Zealand, was, that there
must be something in the climate which infected their minds.
Too much praise could not, however, be given to Captain
Robinson for his gallant and intrepid conduct.—( Hear, hear.)
Everybody in the Bay of Islands must feel indebted to that
brave officer, and he hoped that the Admiralty would feel it to
be their duty to promote and reward him for his brave con-
duct.—(Hear.) He regretted being obliged to comment on
the conduct of any officers in the service, but he felt it to be
hi. bounden duty, as a Member of Parliament, to do so. He
would not trouble the House with further observations.

Lord INGESTRE said he was anxious to bury in oblivion
every topic which could lead to irritation that had been men-
tioned in former debates. He felt bound to state that when the
deputations waited on Sir Robert Peel, they were treated with
the greatest courtesy and consideration. The Right Hon.
Baronet referred them to Lord Stanley, and that Noble Lord
evinced the utmost desire to promote the objects which the de-
putation had in view. Much had been said about a loan, but
he was not ashamed to say that the New Zealand ..3empany
would, had the title to their lands been guaranteed by the
Government, been anxious to obtain a loan, so that they might
more readily effect their purpose, and promote the welfare of
the colony. It would have been most desirable to have re-
moved the capital from Auckland to Port Nicholson, for the
inconvenience was very great, but Lord Stanley was averse to
it. He would apologise to the Right Hon. Gentleman the
Secretary of State for the Home Department, and the Under-
Secretary for the Colonies, for any harsh expressions which
he might have used towards them. He must say,
that notwithstanding all the obloquy that had been
cast upon the New Zealand Company, that he
had never seen a body of men act from purer or more disin-
terested motives to promote great national objects. He would
in justice to Captain Fitaroy say, that he believed his disposi-
tion was to do the best, though he thought the line of policy
pursued by him had been injudicious. Regarding the recent
lamentable events which had taken place in New Zealand, he
must say, that he thought they would have been averted by
a proper and decided line of conduct towards the natives.—
(Hear.) As to the treaty of Waitangai, though willing to
admit to the fullest extent the rights of the natives—he
would not admit the construction put upon that treaty by the
Government. Either the land belonged to the natives, or was
under the control of the Crown. In either care the inter-
pretation put upon the treaty by the Government could not
be sustained. He did hope that, in spite of all the angry feel-
ing which had been engendered by this discussion, all party
feeling would be allowed to subside, and that course be mutually
agreed upon, which would best secure the interests of the em-
pire, and the welfare of the colony.
Mr. HAWES said he was most anxious that all party feel-
ing should be laid aside in this debate, and that the question
should be entirely considered on its merits. He believed the
Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government was anxious
to do what was right.'; and he hoped the debate would not be
brought to a close without an expression of opinion, on the
part of the Right Hon. Baronet, which would be satisfactory to
both sides of the House. He had always thought that the waste
lands of New Zealand should be in the hands of the Crown.
Because this had not been the case, New Zealand, in-
stead of being a flourishing colony, was in a de-
plorable state. He agreed with the Honourable Member
for Liskeard (Mr. C. Buller) that local municipal institutions
should be formed in the colony, from which Members of the
Legislative Assembly should be selected, and who, as a matter
of course, would bring much local knowledge to bear on the
interests of the country. The policy which had beers pursued"
towards New Zealand had led to occurrences of a disastrous
nature ; and it Has now time that another and a better course
should be adopted. The Colonial-office, for instance, had
pursued a line of conduct which plainly evinced that
the policy of the Government was to destroy the utility
of the New Zealand colony. —( Hear, hear.) This he
could prove by a reference to various documents, if it were ne-
cessary to do so. Nothing could be more mischievous than
the obstructions which were thrown in the way of this com-
pany. Great companies, like the New Zealand Company, ef-
fected great good, and brought about results which the Go-
vernment could not achieve. He wished to speak with respect
of the Colonial-office, but he could net divest himself of the
belief that that department of the Government had been mis-
led by information supplied to it, and had consequently adopted
a mode of policy towards that colony which could not be
easily justified. They would new have to held possession of
that colony by force of arms, instead of measures having in
view the conciliation and the peaceful government of that
colony. They would not effect any great good until the Go-
vernment asserted their right to the waste lands of the colony.
And what was the opinion of the Committees of that House ?
Just this—that unless the Government. toak the whole soil of
New Zealand under their control, confusion and strife would
be the consequence. If they thought they could settle it by a
reference at home they would be mistaken. While this in-
quiry was going on they would have fresh disturbances and
fresh outbreaks. They ought to have had a man of higher
rank, such as Lord Ashburton, commissioned to settle all these
disputes upon the spot. The expense would be as nothing in
his mind. He felt strongly on this point, but from what he
knew of Lord Stanley, he felt assured that this dispute would
be speedily at an end, and the same prosperity restored which
had first marked the proceedings of this Company in its origin.
He thought that it was necessary, to bring this dispute to a
conclusion, that all the circumstances ought to be stated.
Sir R. PEEL said, that before entering on the main
question he wished to make one or two observations. His
chief point was to disencumber the question of some of its
minor difficulties. In the first place, he would say
that Mr. Stephen was, in his conviction, an in-
dividual of the highest integrity. From family con-
nexion, from personal position, and from all those
things that distinguish the character of a man, there was every
reason to believe that no imputation whatever could be thrown
upon his character. Whatever might be the impression on the
public mind, though he had no connexion whatever with Mr.
Stephen, and did not even know him, yet this he would say,
that a man of finer ability, nobler integrity, or of more amiable
qualities, did not exist in the employment of Government. He
felt bound to bear this testimony to the character of Mr. Stephen.
He would now refer to another individual equally meritorious,
and for whom he entertained the very highest respect, an officer
whom the Gallant Commodore opposite had, in his opinion,
unjustly aspersed, he meant Captain 'Robinson, and the manner
in which that individual had conducted his operations in New
Zealand, the efficient services he had rendered—services which,
though in themselves not peculiarly distinguished by the
amount of numbers engaged, were yet of more real importance
to the country than many not confined to the same narrow
limits, and he thought that the House would not wish to see ser-
vices so conducive to the public advantage, and merit and ability
spent in the service of the country go unrewarded. That
officer had latety set a gallant example to others engaged in the
service of her Majesty. He had been seriously wounded in a
successful effort to quell a disturbance in the colony ; and
here, on the floor of the House of Commons he (Sir R. Peel)
begged to say that that conduct should not pass unnoticed.—
( Hear, hear.) He repeated that that Gallant Officer should
be rewarded, not merely because of the act of justice to him,
but for the encouragement of others.—( Hear, hear). He
(Sir Robert Peel) felt it an act of duty to reward
such conduct at the very earliest opportunity. (Loud
cheers.) The Hon. and Learned Member who brought
forward this motion, said it was incumbent on the Govern-
ment to assign a reason for the course of policy they had pursued
in New Zealand. After the recent discussion which had taken
place upon this very subject, he (Sir Robert Peel) thought
that some good and sufficient reason ought to have been shown
for calling the attention of the House again, at this period, to
the affairs of New Zealand. Certainly this mode of procedure
was not calculated to allay or to reconcile differences ; it had,
in his opinion, rather a tendency to widen the breaches which
unfortunately already existed between the two authorities
in this country in whom the management of the affairs of the
colony was confided. Such a reason was unquestionably re-
quired, for surely the Hon. and Learned Member should have
been the most anxious to forget past differences, and to
avoid—studiously avoid—useless discussion, and not to throw
difficulties in the way of a harmonious settlement of that colony.
The Hon. and Learned Gentleman admitted that he could not
himself assign any sufficient reason for this motion. He ad-
mitsed that the present state of New Zealand, and the unfor-
tunate conflict which had there lately occurred, did not justify
this motion. He (Sir R. Peel) thought that it ought rather
to have been discouraged. But the Hon. Gentleman said,
" Now I will assign the real reason for this motion." He could
tell the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, that if it were not well
founded he was incurring a great responsibility..—( Hear, hear. )
He ( Sir R. Peel) did not deny the perfect right of the Hon.
and Learned Member, or of any other Hon. Member, to make
this motion in the House of Commons. He did not deny their
or his right to bring this motion forward in his or their places,
as a Member or Members of this House of Parliament ; but
he objected to this motion at this time, on the ground that the
welfare of New Zealand, and the interests of this country would ,
not be benefited by a discussion of the subject.—( Hear, hear.)
The only ground, then, that could be assigned for this motion,
was that language was held out by himself and his Hon. Friend
(Mr. Hope), in the course of last debate, which was at vari-
ance with the policy lately pursued towards the colony of New
Zealand. He (Sir R. Peel) was indeed acquitted of any in-
tention of gaining a majority, by holding out a delusive hope.
But, said the Hon. and Learned Member for Liskeard, that
language was calculated to have had bad effects, and Mem-
bers were induced to vote with Government, or at least
not to vote against them.—( Near, hear, from the Opposi-
tion.) He said that the course of conduct subsequently
pursued by the Government was at variance with their pre-
vious language. He was about to examine that, but should not
relieve him from the necessity of dividing on the question.—
( Hear, hear.) He was about to defend himself and his Noble
Friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies, but should con-
fine himself to this point. He should enter into no examina-
tion of past differences with the New Zealand Company. He
mi
thes
hmewaeburse)lsdr—dt
eheaxsanitidr:tthhhlebeeeNtfwose
trwei Zealand Company now existed,
law
pne(edeHr
at would
that it
elln the
rethtapeiumnbeldisentdhi netsehorepeisntGi
opinion
nhraethr
nearnhecaonci
formerly expressed, although late circumstances had forced
him in some degree to alter his course of policy.—( Hear,
hear.) The Hon. and Learned Member for Liskeard said
that he could not refer to any particular expression in his (Sir
R. Peel's) speech, his remarks would apply to the general
tone. That speech he ( Sir R. Peel) freely admitted
might have been made in a conciliatory tone. It perhaps
avoided all reference to past disputes with the Colonial-office.
He wished to look forward to peace; he had no desire to look
back upon differences and disagreements—( Hear, hear)—and
he wished to promote an early and satisfactory arrangement of
those differences.—( Cheers.) But every word of that letter
which he wrote to the New Zealand Company—every letter
and every word in that letter—he was prepared to maintain.—
(Cheers.) If the Hon. and Learned Gentleman expected
some explanation on his part as to the topics in that
letter, such explanation he was not prepared to give. He
would not supersede his Noble Friend in the conduct
of the Colonial-office, for in his opinion he most cordially con-
curred.—( Hear, hear.) He believed his Noble Friend to be
influenced by a sincere desire to promote the welfare of the New
Zealand Company as far as he could consistently with his duty
to the Crown, and his faith to the country. The Honourable
and Learned Gentleman asked if he meant to imply approbation
of the whole of the past policy of the country as it respected
New Zealand? That was not the point. The real question
was, whether the correspondence which had taken place since
his speech was delivered was at variance with the sentiments
be
hwaidthmada asking
in
he had then expressed.—( Hear, hear.) He abstained from
noticingte t any other part of the subject. He would con-
part of this
gthal°tthnHisouasotece question, was any
declaration communication variance with
wwni thp
part he
said no. Now with respect to the general spirit of that de-
claration he admitted that the general tone was conciliatory.
Had his Noble Friend acted otherwise?—(Hear, Y.
se ?—( Hear hear.) Had
be shown any indisposition to receive the depute' tion from the
Company, even after the
_imputations which had been so

liberally delivered on his conduct ? He had not had an oppor-
tunity of reply, and yet he did not exhibit any other than, a
desire for friendly communication with the chosen deputies
sent to confer with him ; and in order to prevent mistakes that
had occurred before, it was suggested that minutes of the con-
versation should be taken, and that they should be considered a
record of the interview. Now, as respected the general
character of his instructions, he would refer the House to the
dispatches sent to Captain Grey with respect to the New
Zealand Company. In these dispatches he spoke of the policy
of bringing the claims of the New Zealand Company to a fair and
amicable conclusion. What could a Minister say more ?
( Hear, hear.) That Gallant Officer's instructions were similar
to those given in a former instance to Captain Fitzroy—they
bound him to no particular rule, but left him general powers.
His Noble Friend had acted with a desire to avoid all cause of
complaint in selecting Captain Grey. If they had selected
some individuals from that House, it might have been asserted
that they wished to build up family influence, by sending out a
person there, with a handsome salary, who knew nothifs of the
country. But that could not be urged against the appoint-
ment of Captain Grey. If they were wrong in this, they at
least acted from a sincere desire to settle the differences in New
Zealand. But how did his Noble Friend conclude his dispatch ?
He said that his general instructions to Captain Grey were—
to remove all obstacles to the prosperity of the colony,
and to bring so some conclusion, if possible, the discontent ex-
isting on the part of the New Zealand Company.
The Hon. Gentleman then proceeded to say that he (Sir R.
Peel ), speaking in the House of Commons, and exercising
his influence with the Muse of Commons, made a declaration
are' gave the House an assurance which his Noble Friend the
Secretary for the Colonies afterwards failed substantially ,
to carry out. The Hon. Gentleman, in fact, had told the
House that he ( Sir R. Peel) had said that he thought that
with regard to these distant colonies, the system of representa-
tive Government was the best that could be applied to them,
for securing peace and tranquillity, but that he believed the best
mode to be adopted at present for securing the contentment of
the inhabitants of New Zealand was to establish local Govern-
ments. Now, that was not what he did say, but the particular
declaration that he made was this—He said it was quite clear,
seeing how the settlers were spread over the northern parts of
the island; that it would be no easy matter to apply the principle
of representative Government according to the rule
adopted in this country, and that he believed the
best plan for them to pursue, was to form
municipal bodies, giving them extensive powers of local taxa-
tion for local purposes ; and these municipal bodies might
afterwards form the germ of a future representative govern-
ment. It was impossible that these local bodies should have
supreme powers, because it would be inconvenient and create
confusion to have one law in existence in one part of the
colony and another in another part. He apprehended that the
constitution of the franchise, as respected these municipal bo-
dies, was exceedingly fair and liberal, for every male above
the age of twenty-one was entitled to a vote for a muni-
cipal representative. That it might hereafter be found
necessary to extend the system of representative Govern-
ment he was certainly not prepared to deny, but this he would
say, that the time had not yet arrived for the House to take
that question iato its serious consideration. He hoped he had
now given a satisfactory answer with respect to the
declaration which the Honourable Member said he
had made on a former occasion.—( Cries of " Hear, hear.")
With respect to Auckland, he hoped that he bad proved to the
House that he had raid nothing which had not been fully borne
out by the instructions of his Noble Friend. With respect to
the treaties, he had said that nothing could be more unjust than
to depart from those treaties. He believed that the whole ques-
tion before the House resolved itself into this—Was the Go-
vernment prepared to take possession of the land, or to secure
to the New Zealand Company the property of the land which
they had purchased? (Much cheering.) He admitted
that the New Zealand Company had a right to be
put in possession of their lands, provided that was
not done to the damage of the rights of the natives.—
(Cheers.) He wished to show the House that it would be un-
just to his Noble Friend the Secretary of the Colonial depart-
ment, if they condemned his policy in a matter which involved
the question, whether the Crown had or had not a title to the
lands upon the right of discovery. When motions adverse to
his Noble Friend were made, he was entitled to ask upon what
grounds they were made? The Right Hon. Gentleman then
read extracts from the reports of the Committees of the House,
respecting the right of the British Crown to the sovereignty of
- New Zealand. What construction was to be put upon those
statements ? Did they not place the Government of this coun-
try in a position which rendered it necessary to interpose ?
They had stipulated on the part of the Crown that, as the price
and condition of their sovereignty, the natives should not be
called upon to relinquish their land,excepting upon fair cession.
His Noble Friend did not contend that there necessarily was,
on the part of the native chiefs and tribes, a claim to all the
waste lands, but his Noble Friend thought, after the engage-
ments which had been made, that the rights of the natives
ought to be ascertained before they determined what lands the
Crown should lay claim to. If the native tribes could establish
any claim, it would be to the interest of the colony that that
claim should be allowed. That was the spirit in
which he had spoken on a former night, and that was the spirit
in which he spoke now—a spirit not in hostility to the New
Zealand Company, but a spirit consistent with a sincere desire
to see that Company restored to prosperity. A pledge had
been given to the natives of New Zealand, and that pledge,
however unwisely given—and he admitted that it had been un-
wisely given—that pledge ought to be maintained. Conside-
rations of policy should induce them to adhere to that pledge.
They might depend upon it that the seeds of future
government in New Zealand would be very imper-
fectly sown if they did .not do so. Let them beware of
taking the same course as France had done with respect to
Algiers. Taking all into consideration, he would put it to
the Hon. Gentleman the Member for Liskeard, whether he
would press this question to a second division? He would tell
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman that he would not succeed
in establishing a distinction between himself (Sir R. Peel) and
his Noble Friend. His Noble Friend was desirous of fulfilling
the assurances which he (Sir R. Peel) had given. He (Sir
R. Peel) would not undertake to supersede, in the discharge of
his proper functions, a Minister who, he believed, discharged
his duties with almost unexampled ability and with a desire
to promote the interests of every colony which had been com-
mitted to his charge.
Mr. ROEBUCK explained that he did not mean anything
offensive to the Secretary for the Colonies in the observations
he bad addressed to the House on Monday evening, nor to the
missionaries, whose cause the Right Hon. Baronet the Mem-
ber for Oxford had espoused.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that before entering on the imme-
diate subject of discussion, he considered it due to make a few
observations respecting the Hon. Gentleman alluded to by the
Learned Member for Bath, the Right Hon. Baronet
opposite, and, the Hon. Member for Southampton. He
repeated that he considered it due to bear his testimony to
the efficient and laudable conduct of an officer engaged in the
public service. His (Lord John Russell's) experience only
confirmed the testimony which had hitherto been given of his
powerful talents, long experience in all matters of colonial
government, and unrivalled capabilities for conducting the
business of the office in which he was engaged.—( Hear, hear.)
No one could deny this, but that eminent person did use his
talents, and his powerful talents, with an undue influence ever
certain interests, and was indisputably biassed by the Mis-
sionary Society in this country. He bore willing testi-
mony to the extent of that officer's ability and
integrity, but he must, at the same time, state
that the views and opinions of Mr. Stephens depended ma-
terially on the caprice or dictation of the Secretary of State.
He thought that this debate had been made too much a
Zealand
of debate between the Colonial Secretary and the New Zealand
Company. He would take the sense of the House on the Go-
vernment of New Zealand, which, in his opinion, had led to the
late disasters there. He was in hopes that the New Zealand
Company, having been in communication with the Secretary
of State, that the Company might have at length prevailed on
him to take a more just view of the Company. He thought
that the present was a question upon which it was now desirable
to have the opinion of Ministers. He would inquire
what they had done since 1841 to 1845, to promote
the prosperity of New Zealand ? Had that cosany
made the progress which might have been expected ? Had
anything been done in conformity with their resolutions from
1841 to 1845—he believed nothing whatever. It was said they
sent out instructions for that purpose, but he must say that
those instructions fell lamentably short of what ought to be
done.--( Hear.) His opinion, perhaps, went beyond that of
others as to what ought to be done in the present emer-
gency. He thought that municipal institutions ought to be
generally established, and that the fullest possible system of
representation ought to take place. The council which had
been called had found itself an insufficient representation.
There ought to be some delegations from those municipal
councils, by which greater influence, greater weight, and
greater strength might be secured for the purpose of taxa-
tion. That was the principle of the British Consti-
tion. Let them not forget that principle, which
had been 'aid down by a statesman, whose name
must be familiar to readers of British history. A discussion
was related in the appendix to the Life of Mr. Fox, regarding
Representative Government. In 1685, in the latter part of
the reign of Charles IL, a period not resiseekable for the free
expression of political opinion, Lord Hallist, in discussing
the question as to whether the charter of New England ought
to be renewed, said that it was repugnant to English
habits that a Government, in which the opinions of the
people were not represented, should impose taxes, and that a
Government had no power to impose a tax on a free people,
which did not arise from representation.—( Hear, hear.) He
said he would not allow any man to take the money out of his
pocket without giving him authority so to do. It was quite
clear that there was a total want of confidence on the part of
the settlers in New Zealand in the present Council
and Government there.—( Hear.) Surely it would not
he said that that had anything to do with the New Zealand
Company. Had not a member of that Company a perfect right
to call the attention of the House of Commons to the state of
affairs there? Was it a matter to which the House ought to
be indifferent, or was his Hon. and Learned Friend (Mr. Bul-
ler) so " deeply responsible" because he ventured to say in the
House of Commons that 12,000 persons had settled
in the colony, and that they should endeavour that
those settlers should participate in the benefits of free
institutions. As regarded municipal institutions, the settlers
in New Zealand were not now, in 1845, so far in advance as
they were in 1841. Lord Stanley said that it was at present
impossible to establish representative Government these. He
said that it was impossible to give them the franchise. Unless
they supposed the annihilation of the natives in a very short time,
this argument against representation would have the same
weight for the next century to come.—( Hear.) Here was a
conclusive reason against municipal institutions. The Govern-
ment was very liberal in commending the principle. Nothing,
they said, could be more desirable than a representative
Government. There was nothing that they would not say
in its favour, bet there was nothing they would
do for it. The Right Hon. Baronet would pronounce a
panegyric on it in the most beautiful terms, and with the most
highly finished periods, but declined to act in accordance with
those opinions. With respect to the question of land, the view
taken by him in 1839 was the view taken in 1831 and
1832 by Lord Ripon, his predecessor in office, from
which he could not well depart. At the former
period New Zealand was acknowledged as a nation,
and its independence was acknowledged by the Crown
of this country. That might have been a wise or a foolish
step, but they could tot, after this, have claimed land by right
of discovery, mid so renounce the act of the Crown.—( Hear,
hear.) He believed his Noble Friend, who, by the
loss of that great man, bears a title which will be
ever memorable in English history—(Loud cheers)—his
Noble Friend had lately said that he did not approve of this
step. The treaty of Waitangai gave the natives possession of
the lands, fisheries, and forests, but the construction he had
put upon that treaty was those lands which the natives en-
joyed or occupied.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Honourable
•Baronet said, in reference to the interpretation of the treaty,
was a plain
that itin
emndaetatveoruroinfg
to support
histthveiewßbigyhat
Honourable Baronet,
comparison with the treaty of Utrecht, gave the latter sach a
construction as its framers would never acknowledge. The
Right Honourable Baronet, as well as the Noble Lord at the
theyo n
eodw owned
w a
lisighmlaunchda
head of the Colonial Department, said there might be some
waste land to which the natives might not have claim, but
astherthe.e High-
landers of greater
Scotland
partpolicy. They must
either treat New Zealand as a civilised country, like the
Cape of Good Hope and other colonies, or as an
uncivilised nation. In New Zealand there were vast
tracts of land which belonged to the Crown, and
which were consequently at its disposal. It was true they might
adopt the plan of Sir James Gipps, and say " We may take
these lands which belong to savages, and use them as we will."

THE SUN, LONDON, TaTIRSDAY EVENING YULY 24, 18-151

Sir Themas Wentworth said there was an immense
tract of land, consisting of 100,000 acres, which were pur-
chased at the rate of one-eighth part of a farthing
per acre. Were they then not right in saying that the right
of pre-emption was in the Crown? No settler could obtain
land from the Crown. If a person wished to go from this
country to Auckiand, and sought a grant from the Crown, ho
could not obtain it, as he would be told that
it did not belong to the. Crown. With respect to
mediation between the savages of New Zealand and this
country with respect to their lands, parties in that case
would no doubt try their fortunes in New Zealand, but then it
came to this, that this arbitration might not be binding,
although the Noble Lord, who was not easy to satisfy, seemed
to think differently—that the land thus disposed of
might be claimed by different tribes. One would come
and receive a certain sum of money, whilst another would
come and say that the other had no right to receive the money ;
that he could murder the father and mother and .brother of
the chief who had received it ; and that he had a pre-
ferable claim to it, se that those desirous of settling
in the colony would stand but little chance of receiving the
lands under such an award. Persons, instead of saying " They
should like to go out to the colony, and three hundred
more will go out with us—we shall take some capital in the
hope of founding a settlement ;" instead of saying that, they
would go to the Emigration Commissioners and sea for land in
S tuth Australia, or in any other colony than New Zealand.
Captain Grey might say that now he was Governor,
he would treat the natives with the kindness which
they deserved as British subjects, but at the same time telling
them that he would not be trifled into submission. He might
say this, and condemn the policy of the Secretary of State.
The question then before the House was this—whether
the House would act upon its own unbiassed opinion,
reflecting the unbiassed opinion of persons out of doors without
reference to party. He feared that New Zealand would be
sacrificed to the Secretary of State, and that party interests
would be consulted.—( Hear, hear.) But New Zealand—in
spite of the taunts which hail been thrown out against
it, the time would come when the Government would act in a
different way towards New Zealand—when they would be un-
willing to sacrifice the interests of that important colony to
prejudice or obstinacy, and when it would be placed on a simi-
lar footing with their other colonies ; but in the meantime they
exposed that colony to the greatest dangers, and if they agreed
that night that nothing else should be done for it, they would
compel those who had its interests at heart—would compel
parties, session after session, to take steps to prevent the people
of New Zealand from being treated as enemies, instead of
friends.—( Hear, hear. )
Mr. G. W. HOPE rose amidst cries for a division, and was
understood to say that Captain Fitzroy was recalled on account
of his conduct towards the natives.

-
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the motion
Against it ..
Majority for going into Committee of Supply-....• 66
The House then went into Committee pro forma.
The remaining orders of the day were disposed of, and the
House adjourned at a Quarter past One o'clock.

PARLIAMENTARY BUSINESS.
WEDNESDAY, JULY 23.
The following Bills were read a third time and passed :
London and Croydon Railway Enlargement.
Manchester and Leeds Railway (No 2).
West London Railway Bill,—Lord' amendments agreed to,

IiEPORT FROM THE SELECT COMMITTEE
ON THE SOUTH-EASTERN RAILWAY
(BRANCH TO DEAL AND EXTENSION TO
CANTERBURY, RAMSGATE, AND MAR-
G ATE) BILL. -

Mr. Lascelles reported from the Select Committee on
Group A of Railways, that in the case of the South-
Eastern Railway (branch to Deal and Extension to Can-
terbury, Ramsgate, and Margate) Bill the Committee
had examined into the several matters required by the
Standing Orders to be inquired into by Committees on
Railway Bills, and had agreed to the following report:—
First. That the capital proposed to be raised under
the powers in the Bill is 187,000/„ to which extent it is
intended to increase the capital of the South-Eastern
Railway Company, and the amount of loan which they
are empowered to raise is 62,3001., when one-half of the
capital to be raised by the proposed 13111, and the acts
relating to the South-Eastern Railway, shall have been
paid up.
Second. That the amount of shares subscribed for is
140,2501, and the deposits paid thereon amount to
7,0121. 10s.
That the second, third, fourth, fifth, and sixth resolu-
tions did not appear to the Committee to be applicable
to the present case, inasmuch as the work is to be made
by an existing company, and to form part of an existing
undertaking.
Seventh. That the lines proposed to be made are in-
tended to complete the communication by railway be-
tween Deal and the South Eastern (Canterbury, Rams-
gate, and Margate) Railway, and to alter and extend
the last-mentiened railway at the town of Margate, and
so to connect Deal with Ramsgate, Margate, and the
Metropolis, and all the towns on the line of the South-
Eastern Railway ; and the insufficiency of agricultural,
commercial, and other purposes, of the present means of
conveyance and of communisation between Deal and the
lino of the South-Eastern Railway, as well as between
Ramsgate and Margate, and other places lying near or
contiguous to the line of railway, has been satisfactorily
proved. The present amount of traffic by land and water,
with the average charges made for passengers and goods,
and time occupied, appear from the evidence given before
the Committee to be as stated iu Appendices (A), (B),
(C), (D), (E), (F), and (G).
Eighth. That the number of passengers, and the
weight and description of goods, expected upon the pro-
posed branch railway and extension, are set forth in Ap-
pendix (II).
Ninth. That the amount of income expected from the
conveyance of passengers and goods, and in what pro-
portions, and generally the description of goods from
which the largest revenue is anticipated, are stated in
Appendix (I).
Tenth. That the proposed Branch Railway is a com-
plete and integral line between Deal and the line of the
South- Eastern (Canterbury, Ramsgate, and Margate
Branch) Railway.
Eleventh. That a report from the Board of Trade in
favour of the objects embraced by the Bill has been re-
ferred by the House to the Committee.
Twelfth. That there is no plane proposed to be worked
by assistant engines, either stationary or locomotive.
Thirteenth. That there are no peculiar engineering
difficulties on either of the. proposed lines.
Fourteenth. That there is no tunnel.

THE SLAVE TRADE.

PAPERS RELATING TO THE CONVENTION BE,
TWEEN GREAT BRITAIN AND BRAZIL ON THE
SLAVE TRADE.

No. 1.

H. C. J. Hamilton, Esq., to the Earl of Aberdeen. (Two

Inclosures. )

(Extract. )

British Legation, Rio de Janeiro,
March 22, 1845.

Fifteenth. That the gradients and curves are gene-
rally favourable ; the steepest I:,radient being 1 in
264, and the smallest radius of a curve being 20 chains.
Sixteenth. That the length of the branch line to 1)eal
is 8 miles 71 furlongs, and of the Extension to Margate
3 furlongs.
Seventeenth. Tb at it is intended that:the said altered and
extended line of railway should cross on a level one public
road, and that the Branch Railway to Deal should cross
eight public roads ; but the evidence adduced before the
Committee established to the satisfaction of the Commit-
tee that, owing to the peculiar character of the country
traversed, the crossing of such highways on the level was
under all circumstances the most eligible mode that
could be adopted, and that under proper regulations
(which are enforced by clauses in the Railway Clauses
Consolidation Act, the powers of which are extended to
this Bill) no danger could reasonably be anticipated from
that circumstance.

My Lord,—On the 12th instant, a notification was addressed
to me by the Minister for Foreign Affairs, that under the stipu-
lations for the slave trade conventions between Great Britain
and Brazil, the convention of 28th July, 1817, would cease to
have force and effect from the day following, and that conse-
quently from that date, namely the 13th of the month, would
cease and determine the right of visit and search provided for
by the said convention of 28th July, 1817. as well as all other
provisions comprehended therein ; or in the additional articles,
the instructions, &c., &c., annexed thereto; and the notifica-
tion also explained, that the Brazilian Government had agreed
that the British and Brazilian Courts of Mixed Commission,
established in this capital and at Sierra Leone, should continue
in the exercise of their authority for six months longer, that is,
until the 13th of September nest, in order to a final arrange-
ment of all cases and questions yet undetermined, and of any
others to be brought into court, that might have occurred pre-
viously to the said 13th of March.
On the 15th instant, also, a notification of the cessation of
the right of visit and search was made by the Minister of Justice
to the supreme legal tribunals of the capital, and to the pre-
sidents of maritime provinces; bat accompanied by an injunc-
tion, that until some specific regulation should be organised for
the adjudication of vessels captured on account of illicit trade
in slaves, the ordinary courts of law of the empire should be
competent to take cognizance of such acts.
We have yet to see how far these new measures contemplated
by the Brasilian Government for putting down the contraband
osay be successful. But thus far it cannot be denied, that al-
though they have been pledged by treaty to abolish it within a
stated period of time, that abolition has not been accomplished ;
that on the contrary, it has flourished, and continues Us flourish,
under the connivance of the authorities, on the face of all en-
gagements however solemn ; and it seems an admissible ques-
tion, whether, looking to this abandonment of their engage-
ments, the conventions on slave trade between the British and
Brasilian Crowns ought not to be considered as remaining in
full vigour.
Of the two documents mentioned above, I have the honour
to inclose copies. My answer to the first contained simply an
acknowledgment of receipt, and an assurance that it should be
laid before her Majesty's Government without delay.—l
have, &c.,
(Signed) HAMILTON HAMILTON.

Eighteenth. That the amount of the estimates of the
cost or other expenses to be incurred up to the time of
the evmpktiou of the railways is 178,000/.. which appears
to be supported by evidence,and to be fully adequate for
the purpose.
Nineteenth. That the estimated charge of the annual
expenses of the railways when completed is 40 percent.
of the gross receipts, the adequacy of which was satis-
factorily proved to the Committee.
Twentieth. That the calculations proved in evidence
have satisfactorily ests.blished that the revenue is likely
to be sufficient to support the annual charges of the main-
tenance of the railway, and still allow a profit to the pro-
jectors.
That the Committee are satisfied of the fitness in an
engineering point of view of the proposed line of railway,
and there are no other special circumstances of which, in
the opinion of the Committee, it is desirable the House
. hold be informed.

Mr. Lascelles further reported from the Committee,
that they had examined the allegations of the Bill, and
found the same to be true, and had gone through the Bill,
and male several amendments thereunto.