The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-15 00:00:00

reading, but would feel at liberty to take which course
he thought fit upon the third reading.
Sir T. FREMANTLE said, though he understood the
Hon. Gentleman intended to support the second reading of the
/dill, he was desirous at that early period of offering a few ob-
servations to the House, and he hopedthe House would indulge
him for a short time. He could not pass by the speech of the
Hon. Gentleman, for it appeared to him that the Hon. Gen-
tleman acted rather hastily upon his own impressions of wha
the future policy of the Government with respect to Ireland
would be, considering this Bill as the precursor of others which
.would follow. In looking narrowly into this question be felt,
after the full and able exposition given of the measure and of
the views of his Right Hon. Friend at the head of the Adminis-
tration, that he bad little more to say in recommending the
measure to the /louse. He wished, however, with reference to his
own position and his own feelings, to state the grounds on which
he entirely concurred in those views. The opposition to the
proposed grant came from teo sources, one from those who
opposed it entirely on religious grounds, and the other from
those who opposed it on what was called the voluntary prin-
ciole, and those who objected to any grant of public money in
aid of Church matters. In regard to the first, he confessed
that he could net concur with them in thinking that
this question ought to be viewed as a religious
one. Undoubtedly it had been stated, and stated truly,
that every act of a man's life ought to be subjected to moral
and religious responsibility. But he could not see in what way
religion was violated by voting for a measure of this kind.
The Honourable Gentleman opposite (Mr. Hawes) had stated,
and he ( Sir T. Fremantle) concurred with him, that this vote,
whether it were passed, or whether it were refused, would not
encourage or discourage in the slightest degree the Catholic
religion in Ireland. They were dealing with a population of
between six and seven millions. Was it to be supposed that
whether they gave a better or a worse education to the priest
of Ireland the extension of the Catholic or the Protestant reli-
gion would be affected one way or the other? He could not
understand hew the religious question had arisen, unless it
were supposed that the effect of this grant would be to in-
duce those who are Protestants now to become Roman
Catholics. He conceived, therefore, that he was perfectly
justified with reference to all religious denominations, in
voting as a matter of charity—as a matter of public expedie
ency—t hat this grant should be made. He conceived he
was justified in doing this without reference to any religious
considerations whatever. His Hon. Friend, the Member for
the University of Oxford, had brought this question home in
a much more intelligible way, as he said that he would not
consent to give anything to penons who taught that which
was erroneous in doctrine. Now, the question was, whether
they could act on that principle or whether they could not?
Now he did not think that his Hon. Friend himself could alto-
gether act upon that principle. Could he act upon that prin-
ciple in the situation of landlord, or guardian, or parent, or in
any other relation in which he might be called upon to stand?
his Hon. Friend proposed to leave a large population in
Ireland without the means of religious instruction. The prin-
ciple which his Hon. Friend advocated had been violated in
numerous instances. The statute-book contained se-
veral enactments in which that principle had been violated.
Ist the army estimates there was a distinct vote for the pay-
ment of Roman Catholic chaplains. Every military hospital
was furnished with a Roman Catholic chaplain, if there were a
suflieient number of Roman Catholic soldiers in the regiment
to require his attendance. To that he thought that the Hon.
Gentleman could not object. 'fhere was no religious prin-
ciple violated in the measure. There was no principle
of the Protestant Church violated in the vote. With re-
gard to that portion of the question. it had been
before advocated in that House. It had been advo-
eated in the year ISOS by Mr. Tierney, and in language
se much better than any he (Sir T. Fremantle) could make
'use of, that he could not do better than quote it. In support
of the grant to Meynooth, Mr. Tierney had said that they might
make the Irish Catholics bad subjects—they might make them
had Catholics—they might make them bad Christians, but they
could not make them Protestants, and that there was no effectual
method of improving the condition of Ireland but by educating
the Catholics. Mr. Grattan, who was also a most high
authority on this subject, had said, in the same debate, that if
they refused this grant they would be securing the ignorance of
a great portion of the Roman Catholic clergy—that to secure
religious conformity was impracticable, and that they would
render the securing of political conformity equally impracticable if
they were to refuse this vote. He concurred in these opinions,
end he believed that the proposition of his Right Hon. Friend
was not only justifiable in principle, but that it was absolutely
just.—( Hear, hear.) His Right Hon. Friend, in a former
debate, had gone into the history of the system so fully, that it
would be unnecessary for him (Sir Thomas Fremantle) to go
over the same ground. They knew that the College of May-
nooth had been established by an Act of the Legislature, in
1795 ; that by another Act of the Legislature it had been re-
cognised, in 18 *0; and that, as late as the year 1808, another Act
of Parliament had not only acknowledged its existence, but had
given it a firmer settlement, and had given the trustees of that
College power to take and to hold larger quantities of land than
they had been enabled to hold before. In addition to this
the grant had been made uninterruptedly till the present time.
When they considered who had established the College it was
rather too much to say that they should not continue the
grant, and even extend it. All, he believed, were in
favour of the principle of the grant.—(Cries of " Heat.")_
lie believed that it was not denied that the number of Ro
man Catholics had doubled in Ireland since the Union. In
1795 the Catholic population was estimated at four millions—
it was now seven millions. There was another question—the
question of contract—upon which he wished to say a very
few words. It was only those who wished to shrink from the
performance of a contract, who would first demand its produc-
tion.—( Hear, bear.) But there were agreements and under-
takings between men and parties which ought to be more bind-
ing than contracts. It should be recollected that the College
Maynooth was established and endowed by a Parliament
which was entirely Protestant ; and it was established with the
perfect understanding that the grant was to be permanent. It
was also to be temembered that the Roman Catholics, since
the Union, had exercised great influence upon Par-
liamentary questions. They had contributed to the
carrying of the Reform Bill and other measures,
and it could not be doubted that if the Parliament had con-
tinued in Ireland an enlarged grant would have been given be-
fore this to the Irish priesthood. He thought that they ought
not to legislate for Ireland in an Irish sense.—( Hear, hear.) If
he question touched ally great subject connected with the in-
terests of the empire, they then should look upon it as an im-
perial question, but when it did not affect the interests of this
country, they ought to view it as an Irish question, and they
ought to deal with it as Irish Members. In support of that
argument, he might refer to the contrast between the feeling
in Ireland and that in England on this matter.—( Hear,
Lear.) Though the table was covered with peti-
tions against the grant to Maynooth from England and
Scotland, those from Ireland were very few, though there ex-
isted a strong feeling in Ireland against Catholicism, and a fear
er Catholic ascendancy. He might also allude to the petition
trout one Presbyterian body in favour of the grant, which was
presented by his Right Hon. Friend. If, then, there was no
principle to be violated, and if it was but just that the vote
should be made, it was easy to perceive that the policy which
Add to it was good. The existing want of everything necessary
to keep up a great establishment had been depicted to the
/louse over and over again, and had net been denied by any
Member. His Right Honourable Friend was perfectly correct
when he stated that they gave enough to prevent voluntary con-
tributions, but they did not give enough to keep up an institu-
tion. The allowance made was so inadequate that stu-
dents were very frequently obliged to leave the College
before they had completed their academical course. He
thought that it would be well worth the expenditure of a few
pounds to introduce a better feeling in the breasts of those
who could not leave the College without a feeling of degrada-
tion. He rejoiced that this measure had been introduced by
her Majesty's Government, because he did think it would be
a great means of removing some of the many grievances of
which the Irish people had to complain, and particularly those
causes of discontent so justly existing amongst the Roman
Catholics of that country.—(Cheers from the Opposition. )
It would also, he hoped, have the effect of inspiring the great
majority of the people of that country with confidence in
the existing tiSovernrnent—(Cheers)—for without that con-
Adence it was u,eless to hope that the existing Government
could he upheld.—(Cheers from the Opposition benches.)
No doubt, it would be very easy, if the exist-
ie.. Government did not choose to covet this con-
tidence, to send military troops, and enforce courts-martial
in that country. to enforce obedience to the law ; but he would
contend for it that such a mode of attempting to prevent eva-
sions of the laws, would never be successful in enabling the ex-
ating Government to carry on the business of the country.—
( Hear, hear.) Thetefore, he must hold that, in order to con-
vince the Irish people that their confidence war sought, some
such measure as this was necessary to be introduced.—( Cheers
from the Opposition.) When once the people of Ireland saw
that the intentions of the Government were conciliatory and
honest, they would give them credit for meaning well towards
them.—( Hear, hear.) But it would be unnecessary for him to
follow this subject out any further. Already they saw many
,indications of improvement in Ireland. Railroad projects were
*low being extensively carried on in that country; and he did
live they would prove to be hut the forerunners of others still
more extensive and beneficial. if topics of a' political character
were not kept up as a means of preventing that union of inte-
xest as well as of affection which should ever exist between the
awo countries.
Mr. FOX MAPLE said, that he was perfectly aware that
he could scarcely command the attention of the House at that
hour, when more distinguished individuals were expected to
address it, but lie felt that it would be necessary for him to
detain them for a very short time while he explained the rea-
sons why he intended to vote against the second reading of this
Bill. Ha thought that the Right lion. Baronet had notmade
out a case for the allowance oi this grant, nor had he (Mr.
F. Maule) heard from that (the Mieisterial) side of the House
61116 argument to disprove the saying of his Hon. Friend near
him, that this measure had an ulterior object. The Right Hon.
Baronet had said that his Hon. Friend had no right to make
that supposition. He ( Nlr. F. Maule) would grant that the
Right /ion. Gentleman was right in contradicting the line of
argument advanced by his Hon. Frieuil, provided he had proved
to the House that those anticipations were not well grounded. But
he had not chosen to give his own friends or the House the
smallest hint to guide them in this case.—( Hear, hear.)
He (Mr. F.•Nlatale) grounded his opposition to this Bill on
the asset:option that this was no final measure—( Cheers)—but
that there would be an ulterior course adopted which he
could not and would not approve. He thought that no one
could doubt, unless indee4 the Right Hon. Baronet himself
would, that there was a strong feeling in the public mind on
this subject, and that the petitions which had been presented
to this House did not emanate from any system of centralisa-
tion, but from thegeneral feeling. That'o-ntee
m which the Right
Hon. Baronet had himself the other day presented wasanex-
c.option to the rule, but it would have been the height of
gi atitude if that petition had not been presented at that f
in
Wh
y, those parties had a Bill oftheir own before.
that House last year, and the Roman Catholics
coifcoiflreland had presented numerous petitions in their favour.
jt would then have been the height of ingratitude if the Dis-
lent," of Scotland had not come forward to support the
Heinen Catholics upon this question. He hoped that the
House -veuld acquit him of all wish to discuss this question in
a spirit of hostility to the Roman Catholic people of Ireland.
—( Hear, hear.) He would not enter into any religious dis-
pute whatever. Ile thought he had a right to discuss this as
a political measure of the Government ; but in doing so it
was impossible to avoid come reference to the effect of the
soemsure upon the religious feelings of this country._
r 11,a, hear.) He maintained that the grant to Mayneoth
Iwo., not a matter of contract. Look to the origin of the vote
and you would find it originated in 1793 ; and he could not help
thinking from all that he saw in the paltry grant of B,oool.,that
it was nothing more titan a subscription on the part of the
Government, at the time when they had granted to the people of
Ireland the great boon of being allowed to establish an institu-
tion for the education of their own clergy. It was a boon to
the people, to allow them to erect places where they could
aemselves educate their priesthood. That was a boon worth
the Irish people's receiving. But
. as that paltry grant was
Annt.nued since, it was only meant es a bene-
lialstreter iyisiTtnent, to assist the private benevolenee
—lndiiU?e was not prepared to discontinue the grant,
illt" • -tintr vidliitrl&:eontinuance as it now was, he held that to
iaii.ka-110
tuuerent question from that at present before the
I 'xl_elirihear..}- The question was not now whether
-,evidlpun the old grant, but whether they would
4.
f and permanent endowment.—( Flear.)
•
f.
of tto wont was even to be by an annual vote,
e4aitsider the question the same as the mere eon-
divisive of di. old one. But that was a question not now before
the Hannn a reste4 his position on this, that it was proposed
to make an establishment for the education of the Catholic clergy
of Ireland, bona fide in sonnexion with the State.—( Hear. )

Was that principle consistent with what they had done in I
other cases ?—( Hear.) They had introduced also another
principle into the grant by taking the Irish Catholic Church
into connexion with the State, without reserving to the State
any controul over the new establishment.—( Hear.) Was that
the principle on which they had proceeded in other matters ?
(Cheers. ) It was not—and he stood there as an example of
the opposite principle.—( Hear, hear.) When he came to
the House with petitions and claims of right, from the Presby-
terian people of Scotland, setting forth the privileges to which
they considered themselves entitled by ancient statutes, and by
the articles of union—when he claimed that they should have
in the Scotch Church the management of their own spiritual
welfare and should not be interfered with by the State—he was
told by Gentlemen who supported the measure now, that
the claim was monstrous and incocsistent to have a Church in
connexion with the State, over which the State should have
no control. That was the case with the Scotch Church ; and
four hundred of her most active ministers, and nearly a million
of her most faithful people were driven from her pale. —(Hear,
hear.) How then could Gentlemen opposite come forward
now to ask him, a member of the Free Church of Scotland, to
support them, on public grounds, in a measure for placing the
Roman Catholics in connexion with the State in respect to en-
dowment, not under the control of the State ?—(Cheers.) If
they were right in this case, how unjust had they been in the
case of the Scotch Church ?—( Hear.) If they were right in
that case, how could they turn round now, and take the oppo-
site course ?—( Hear, hear.) He understood the course
of the Government as little as he understood the advice
of the Right Honourable Baronet opposite to Irish landlords—
advice, however, in which he (Mr. Fox Maule) concurred—to
give sites for the buildiag of houses of worship, and of schools,
and to assist their tenantry in the education of their clergy?
Was it the intention of the Right Honourable Baronet to ad-
vise a member of his own Cabinet, sitting in the other house,
to act in the same spirit towards his poor tenantry in Scotland ?
—,Cheers.) Was it the intention of the Right Honourable
Baronet to remonstrate with that Member of his own Govern-
ment far refusing his poor tenants a site for building a place of
meeting, for which they were willing to pay, or to allow them
even to assemble on a corner of the old moor—so that they
were compelled to meet for prayer upon the Sabbath at the
place where three reads met ?—( Hear, hear, hear.) The name
was familiar to the Right Honourable Baronet.—( Hear, hear. )
But it was said that the Parliament ought to take compassion
upon Irish poverty. fie did not know that. They were told
that there were eight millions of Roman Catholics in
Ireland ; and he did not think that they aught to be behind
hand with the seven or eight hundred thousand Presbyterians
of the Free Church of Scotland, who were thrown upon their
own resources, and in the last two years had erected six hun-
dred chapels, and had raised a sum of 600,000/. for various
ecclesiastical purposes.—( Hear, hear.) No one would say
that the members of the Free Church were of the richer class
in Scotland, on the contrary they were of the poorer. Now
he believed that no people held their religion more dear than
the Catholics of Ireland, and he would say to them, " instead
of coming here for this endowment, you should follow the ex-
ample of the Scotch Presbyterians, and we will assist you, by
repealing still further the Mortmain Act—and then you will be
far more respected in this country than by coming here for an
endowment."—(Hear. hear.) But they had heard a very
extraordinary statement as to the condition of the Col-
lege, which they were told was so wretched as to
call for legislative relief. But, last year, a counts yman of his
went over to Alaynooth, and visited the College ; and he has
published his opinion of its condition and arrangements—he
meant Mr. James Grant. That gentleman described the situa-
tion of the place and its nature, and then went on to describe the
interior. He said that all the arrangments were excellent, and
well adapted to the purposes of such an institution. The young
men were well fed, comfortably lodged, and cleanly clad.
Mr. SHEIL—Oh ! that was a Scotchman's account.—
(Immense laughter. )
Mr. F. MAULE—It was the opinion of a Scotchman who
was very hospitably received, and had every opportunity of
judging of what he described.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. Grant
did not write like one who was actuated by a hostile spirit.—
But from his description of the condition of the student, it
seemed questionable that the statements the House had re-
ceived the other night were not in some degree overcharged.—
( Hear, hear.) With regard to the conciliation of this measure,
he would say, that only two years ago, the Right Hon.
Baronet told the House that conciliation had reached its ut-
most limits towards Ireland.—(Cheers.) This was one of
the concessions which always came from the Right Hon.
Baronet's party—and which always came toe late.—( Cheers )
Mr. O'Connell denied the conciliation, and thanked them
for no more than the posses ion.—( Hear, hear.) He said
that he would go on with agitation until he got all that
he wanted.—(Hear.) If they wished to conciliate, they
ought to have done so in some way that would not excite the
religious feelings of the people of this country. —(Hear. )
For his part he was disposed to do justice to Ireland in the
fullest sense of the word. But he would ask, was there no op-
portunity of doing so in matters in which the people of Eng
land might have looked on as impartial judges in their poli-
tical character?—(Cheers.) Was there no franchise in which
concession to Ireland would create no religious rancour in
England ?—(Cheers. ) What became of the zeal of the Right
Hon. Baronet, when he passed over the franchise, which
they might have proposed to equalise' and in which he, for one,
would assist them with a liberal hand ?—(Cheers.) There
were ether questions on which they could have laid their
hands without violation to any religious feeling.—(Hear,
hear.) He thought the Right Hon. Baronet could not allow
this debate to close without stating explicitly whether the
measure was intended as a prelude to the endowment of the
Catholic clergy as a body.— (Cheers.) He could not under-
stand how, after their conduct on the question of the Church
of Scotland, they could propose to endow the Church of a
different religion in a neighbouring country, and exclude the
interference of the State. That would be an act of injustice
to the whole body of the Dissenters in this country. For his
part, he had always opposed the principle, and although he
was a member of the Church of Scotland, and was a friend to
Church extension, when Dr. Chalmers, ten years ago (in
1835), was making great efforts for that object, he at
that time opposed a public grant, on the grounds of his present
opposition to the measure before the House—( Hear, and
cheers) and whether from such an accidental union
as that of the Right Hon. Member for Oxford, or from any
other motive, he could succeed in stopping this Bill, he knew
not. But this he knew, that the proposal would not allay agi-
tation in Ireland, whilst it had raised up an agitation in Eng-
land to feelings of bitterness which it would take no small
time to allay.—(Cheers. )
A great number of Members rcse at once to speak, amidst
great laughter, and it took the Speaker some seconds lo decide
that his eye had first been caught by
Lord CASTLEREAGH, who said that as he was desirous
of addressing the House upon this question, he was glad to rise
after his Hon. Friend the Member for Perth, to whom he was
extremely sorry he should be opposed ; although he must also
say that he was not so opposed to his Hon. Friend in any spirit
of party.—( Hear, hear.) His Hon. Friend had alluded to a
petition which had been presented in favour of the Bill from a
body of Presbyterians in his (Lord Castlereagh's) county, and
he (Lord Castlereagh) was glad to have an opportunity of bear-
ing testimony to their high religious character and liberality.
With reference to the question, the House or the country
had noright to declaim for being taken by surprise. He (Lord
Castlereagh) and his friends were prepared for some great
measure being proposed for Ireland, and it was his astonish-
ment to find that this, the first one, was so exceedingly trifling.
They had discussed this grant for fifty years. For fifty years
it had been the unceasing cause of squabble and noise, and they
had come down to the House with various feelings, but the
great feeling that prevailed was, that the Irish people never
thanked them for their parsimony; they gave them 9,0001.,
but they gave it to them gradually, and they did not thank
them. He was glad that the first thing done in this measure
was the setting at rest the question of whether the grant was
to be continued or not. When that was the question, he
voted against the grant, but not against his Catholic fellow
countrymen, for Heaven knew that the first time he spoke
in that House, he addressed it in the cause of his
Roman Catholic fellow countrymen. He did not see what harm
the emancipation had done them, or how it led to agitation.
He was not one of those who believed that repeal was a re-
ligious question. Whether they had already reaped the fruits
of that measure or not—and he was of opinion that they had—
they would yet know that the boon they had given to the Irish
could not be forgotten, and, sooner or later, they would reap
sufficient advantage. The people of England were peculiarly
jealous upon the subject of what he might call the "No Popery"
ciy. The petitions presented to Parliament would show the
feeling of the people ; but he thought it was the duty of the
Government, under such circumstances, to temper the feeling,
and to lay a broad foundation of justice, whereon to build a
superstructure of good government.—( Cheers.) They should
not yield to the pressure without; if they did, they would have
yielded long ago to the Anti-Corn-law League; nor would
they have re,isted the repeal agitation, which, he was sorry
his fellow-countrymen paid too much attention to. It was the
duty of the Minister to temper such a feeling without laying
aside his own intention, and a good intention of carrying, out
a beneficial measure. Honourable Members were pursuing a
consistent course in opposing everything like concession to the
Roman Catholics—they were afraid of Popery. He (Lord
Castlereagh) thought that the experience of twenty years, and
the information received from those who would bring forward
their conscientious opinions in a Court of Justice, would have
removed such prejuciices.--( Hear.) He and his colleague
received a requisition, signed by several young gentlemen of
property in the county of Down, which he had the honour to
represent. It was signed by many of his earliest and best
friends, who entreated himself and his colleague to give oppo-
sition to the Bill of the Hon. Baronet. A letter from a friend
of his characterised the measure as one calculated to bring
down national judgments upon them. He, however, had a
duty to perform, irrespective of his constituents, and if they
thought he acted wrong they could visit him with the conse-
quences of their displeasure. He deeply regretted this agita-
tion which had sprung up in England, at the head of which
were many great names. He saw Exeter Hall again in the
throes of childbirth—( Laughter) —and he saw placards and
processions parading the streets because they were going to
give a few pounds, as his Hon. Friend had said ; but he
would say a sufficiently increased grant to the institution of
Maynooth. He was not going to enter into a theolo-
gical discussion concerning the doctrines that were taught at
Maynooth. He was not a Guy Fawkes or a Peter Dens ;
but he would say that this grant was liberally proposed by the
Right Hon. Baronet, who was not slightly abused or criticised
in that House for the measure which he had the manliness to
bring forward. When he first saw the flirtation between the
Hon. Member for Oxford, the representative of the chivalry of
his party and the beauty of Young England, he did not think
that such an alliance would produce fruit—he was of opinion
that it would be a spawn.—( Laughter.) He regretted to hear
the caustic and sarcastic remarks of the Hon. Member fur Shrews-
bury, who he was sorry was not now in his place. He re-
gretted to perceive that his talents were used on the wrong
side; he wished that he was raising his banner cry for, instead
of against, them. In contradiction to the lion. Gentleman he
should say that they owed Catholic Emancipation to the Hon.
Baronet at the head of her Majesty's Government, and to his
coadjutor in the House of Lords. He regretted to hear the im-
putations which were cast en the Right Hon. Baronet, and he
could not help thinking that there was some remembrance,
for Dublin in his
some deep sorrow hovering over the mind of the Hon.
Gentleman, when he looked about and did not see the Member
o
place. It had been said by the Hon. Member for
Shrewsbury that he should not have opposed this grant if it was
brought
in by the Members opposite. There was
always an ne;ion,ioernn,mewnhtetwheerrerigmhotreoror wrleosnsg,
underthat Lothrde.
Castlereagh) did not think
dictation cr subservient tothaAtltrh.e
COh'Capoenineelb.isseHneter(sLßorildl
would have been carried but for Mr. O'Cll —( Hear,
hear. ) Ho (Mr. D'lsraeli) said !vat he lookedonne with distrust
at any measure coming from the Gt eminent, as they were not
the people to give it, and he for o
ne
(Lord Castlereagh's) telling
should oppose it. He
could not, therefore, wonder at his (
him that he should be rather jealous of any measure coming
from the other side of the House, for he should not believe
that it was through a spirit of conciliation or concession that
it would be introduced, but under the dictation of i
Air.
O'Connell and his party. He was sorry for detir ithe
House so long, but he thought it necessary, as an Irishlki
her, to address the House in approval of the measure, and he
hoped and trusted that the [tight Hon. Gentleman would go on
in the career which he had adopted—( Hear, hear)—and if by
the dictation of any party he should be left in a minority, be
felt convinced that he could assure them that there would be
found many by his side who would cheer him and share his fall ;
and who would suppmt his measures whether he was on this side
of the House or the other. He would conclude by referring
to a sentence in a pamphlet, written by a gentleman in that
Huse, which contained much better language than he could
express, and which said that it would be very sanguine to ex-
pect that Ireland should be incorporated in feeling or in laws

with the rest of the empire, until they had laid a foundation
broad and deep on which a superstructure of conciliation and a
union .f genuine cordial feeling should be built. A Minister I
who would attempt that would be conscious of the great
duty which he had performed, and would enjoy the sympathy
of all that was wise and good, and his memory would be at-
tended with that favour which crowns the benefactor of his
country.—( Cheers.)
The O'CONOR DON said, that so cordially; did he agree
with the observations which came from the Noble Lord who hal
just sat down, that he brought down the pamphlet referred to
for the purpose of quoting the same language. It was said by an
Hon. Member that he whiled that this should be dealt
with as an Irish question. If it were to be considered as an
Irish question, he believed that an immense majority of the
Irish people would be found to vote in accordance with the
proposition of the Right Hon. Baronet. He was anxious to
rise to answer a question proposed by the Honourable Member
for Shrewsbury, who called upon them to repudiate the mea-
sure proposed by the Right Hon. Baronet. He (the O'Conor
Don), for one, was disposed to accept cordially the proposition,
feeling, as he did, that it was one involving in itself the educa-
tion of a portion of the Irish people, and enhanced as it was in
value by the manner in which it was introduced by the Right
Hon. Baronet. He said that it was to be received in three
ways : it was turned by the Honourable Member for Shrewsbury
into that ridicule and sarcasm with which, in his opi-
nion, he was too conversant, but he did not for one
moment venture to grapple with the arguments made use of.
He frequently said " this is the question," but the question it-
self he totally avoided. The question was this, what was to
be done with Maynooth? Was the grant to be discontinued,
was it to be continued as it then was, or was it to he in-
creased? Could it be discontinued under present circumstances,
and the state of feeling in Ireland, where there existed so
much dissatisfaction? Where was the Government that would
not remove one more element of dissatisfaction?—(Cheers. )
There could no doubt exist in the mind of any one as to the
success of this measure. Was there any principle against the
grant ? If there were, in what did it consist ? It appeared that
the principle was against that which would be sufficient—
namely, 25,0001., but there was no principle violated in grant-
ing 9,0001. The principle in both cases was the same, in his
opinion. In 1808, there was an increase proposed by a Pro-
testant Parliament, and yet no person accused them of yielding
one principle which involved the principles of the Protestant
Church. It was a principle recognized in all the colonies—in
every one of them—(Hear, hear)—and was that princi-
ple to be objected to now in a case where Irelandwas to be con-
cerned ?—( Cheers.) The interests of Ireland were as inti-
mately connected with this country, as the interests which
were more distant. As it was already thought advisable that
that grant should be continued in Ireland, so ought sufficient
be granted for the purposes for which it was made. The
question was, whether the professors received an amount ade-
quate to their instructions, sufficient to induce them to spend
the whole of their lives in teaching for the sum of 93/. a year.
There was one reason put forth for opposing it, which was the
principle of those who would object to all establishments what-
ever. How was it that their indignation was only called forth
when Ireland was brought under their consideration ? When
it was proposed to give anything to Ireland, then came forth
that which would, at the other side of the water, be considered
an anti-Irish feeling—(Hear, hear)—and which he regretted
because he wished to see both countries on the best terms. He
thought that it ought not to be considered an ecclesiastical en-
dowment, but an educational endowment. It ought not to be
considered as a junction with the State, for he believed that a
great many Irish Roman Catholics would object to it, bat they
would not object to a grant tothat College which would enable the
members of that College to discharge the duties they had to per-
form with advantage to the country. The Member for Newcastle
objected seemingly to the grant on the ground that the profes-
sors were incompetent to teach, and that they were men of no
education. He instanced the evidence of Dr. Cullen, to the
effect that he did not know of the existence of the sixth book of
Euclid. Euclid was not the book taught at Maynooth, but
there was a system used there of the science as it was
taught by the Abbe Dare, and which was laid down
by French mathematicians of the highest eminence.
The substance of his (the O'Conor Den's) information
was to the effect, that this man so vilified, so misrepre-
sented, so stigmatized, and branded as ignorant, was one
of the most distingui-lied men in the literary and
scientific world in this day. He was eminent by his
researches in the phenomena of galvanism and electricity.
and his name was widely known and appreciated. The Hon.
Member for Newcastle had referred to the communications
which had passed between the Court of Rome and the Irish
Catholic ecclesiastics. He (the O'Conor Don) might be al-
lowed to make one short' observation upon that subject. He
would merely say that those bulls, no matter how numerous
they were, were of no validity in temporal or civil matters ;
and he would, with the permission of the House, exemplify
this very shortly. When this country was threatened by the
Court of Spain, and the formidable Armada was ap-
proaching its shores, then, notwithstanding the bulls
promulgated by the Pope, the Roman Catholics in
this country offered to serve in the foremost ranks,
for her whom they declared to be their rightful and
beloved Queen. The subjects of Ireland could not be loyal to
her Majesty without, at the same time, being loyal to her sub-
jects. It was said that her Majesty intended to visit Ireland
this year. He hoped it might be so. Englishmen had the
advantage of her residence among them. Scotland
had been honoured by her visits; and now he
trusted that Ireland would be similarly honoured, and
certain he was that there she wou'd be enthusiastically
welcomed. Some Hon. Gentleman had said that they post-
poned Catholic questions until their boons were valueless, for
the grants had become a necessity, and the same Hon.
Members again came forward and questioned the Right Hon.
Baronet in such a guise that it was quite impossible for him
to answer them. The questions answered themselves. He
was glad, however, to find that, on his side of the House, the
Noble Lord the Member for London (Lord John Russell),
forgetful of his pary feeling, and, on the other side,
the Right Honourable Baronet, both concurring in carrying
out this measure of justice towards Ireland. He would give
his cordial support to the measure of the Right Hon. Baronet.
Mr. LEFROY would give his vote against the second read-
ing of this measure, and he was anxious to do so in a manner
the least calculated to give offence to the Right Hon. Baronet,
or to any other Hon. Member. He was the more anxious to
explain his reasons, as on this question he should be opposing
a Ministry whose general line of policy he hail supported. He
gave full credit to the Right Hon. Baronet for his desire to ad-
vance the best interests of the country, but in this case he
thought he was opposed to the generally expressed opinion
of the entire country.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.")
The argument advanced by the Right Hon. Baronet seemed to
him (Mr. Lefroy) particularly strange. Ho argued that, be-
cause the present system worked badly in the College of May-
nooth, they should try what the mere effect of pounds, shil-
lings, and pence could do. He (Mr. Lefroy) objected to
this grant on two grounds ; the first, because it interfered with
the theory and practice of their present Constitution ; and he
objected to it on a religious ground, although he did not mean
to discuss this as a religious question. He would put it to
any man whether this grant to a Roman Catholic church was
not against both the spirit and the letter of the Protestant
Constitution? Whether it was not an express violation of
the declaration signed by the Sovereign of these realms ?
The Hon. Member for Newark had spoken very plausibly in
favour of this measure. The Right Hon Gentleman had re-
corded his opinions upon the same subject, and it was but fair
that the Members of that House should compare the two opi-
nions. ( The Hon. Member then quoted from Mr. Gladstone's
pamphlet, in which he strongly objected to the grant to
Maynooth.) He should oppose the second reading of this
measure.

Col. T. WOOD said that he perfectly concurred in the
propriety of the measure proposed by the Right Hon. Baro-
net, and he would state the grounds on which he intended
to vote for it. The Hen. Member who had last spoken,
had founded his opposition upon a religious principle.
But he did not agree with Hon. Members that this measure
would be an invasion of the rights of the Church of England.
Let it be recollected that, by the Emancipation Act, every
subject of the kingdom, to whatever creed belonging, was
placed on terms of equality with his fellow man, in regard to
the enjoyment of civil rights.—(llear, hear.) It was true
that that measure made an exception in favour of the Pro-
testant religion, so far as the succession to the English Crown ;
but, while the English monarch would be certain to uphold
the dignity of the English Crown, the civil rights of the
subjects should not be lost sight of.—( Hear, hear.) It wa.,
upon those grounds that he felt disposed to give his vote in
favour of the measure.—(Cheers.) He would also give his
vote in favour of it, because he did think the Government of
this country were bound to provide a suitable education eut
of the revenues of the State for the Irish people.—(Cheers.)
Let it be recollected that the Roman Catholic priests were the
instructors of the Roman Catholic people of Ireland; that the
people were necessarily thrown upon their clergy for advice
and cowls:4, when they had none else to look to in a country
long known as suffering front an absentee proprietary.—
(Cheers.) In addition to this, let it be also borne in mind
that hitherto the Catholic people of Ireland not only supported
their own clergy, but were compelled by law to support the
ministers of a religion which was not the religion of the ma-
jority of the Irish people.—(Cheers.) He would contend for
it th.t this was a measure of justice that should of necessity
have followed a measure of last session—he meant the Catholic

Bequests Act, and one which would tend more to promote the
peace and welfare of Ireland, than any ether measure that
could possibly be introduced.—( Hear, hear.) He would sup-
port this measure because it showed that some real attention
was devoted to the state of Ireland by the Government since
they came into office ; and it should be admitted that the state
of that country for the past two years was unparalleled in the
history of civilization. He regretted that the Roman Catholic
priests should have taken part in the great political
movement to which he alluded ; but he did not
mean to say it was the speeches delivered at
their meetings, so much as the whole movement
itself that made ar. impression upon the minds of the people.—
( Hear, hear.) Now he would ask the house, in what manner
would they be prepared to meet the agitation again, should it
be renewed? Were they prepared to meet it by coercion and
martial law, or by means of conciliation ?--( Hear, hear.) He
would say they should meet it by conciliation alone ; ter if they
tried coercion, and succeeded by that in promoting a temporary
peace, still they would find at the end that conciliation alone
would do.—( Cheers from the Opposition.) lie felt pain at
being compelled to differ upon this question from many for
whom he entertained the highest esteem ; but still he would
say that if it had the effect of conciliating Ireland he would not
regret it.—( Cheers from the Opposition.) If this measure
should have the effect of invalidating the claims or stability of
the E,tablished Church in Ireland, he would rather resign his
seat into the hands of those who had honoured him with their
confidence, than vote for it ; but he could not see how the en-
dowment by the State of the Roman Catholic Church in Ire-
land could have such an effeet.—( Loud cheers.) In fact,
Ireland was the only part of the world in which it was
found that two Churches of opposite creeds could not exist in
harmony and peace with each other.—( Hear.) Might they,
then, not hope that the time was not far distant when they
should see as happy a state of things in Ireland, and was it not
the duty of the State to endeavour to achieve it ?—( Cheers
from the Opposition.) It had been said that by this measure
the Government would be only arming the Roman Catholic
priests of Ireland with new weapons against, the Proteitant
Church ; let them rather hope those clergymen would use tilt-it
newly-acquired power in furtherance of renewed efforts at the
suppression of crime and vice.—( Loud cheers.) The Ho-
nourable Member then sat down, whereupon, as upon every
similar occasion during the evening, at least twenty Members
rose at once, each endeavouring to catch the Speaker's eye, but
Sir C. NAPIER having succeeded, he said he would not
have presumed to have taken any part in the discussion this
evening, but that he wished to set himself right with his con-
stituents, under all the circumstances, for giving his vote in
favour of this measure.—( Hear, hear. ) He regretted that his
Hon. Friend, the Member for Sheffield, had not deemed it
expedient to persevere with his motion, and take a clear vote
of the House upon it, for he knew many Hon. Members who
would have supported him, in epposition to what they conceived
to be an obnoxious measure. However, he had perhaps, after
all, acted a discreet part in postponing it ; and when he
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did bring it forward, he (Sir C. Napier) hoped to see him do
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be an instruction to the Committee, in any Protestant parish
would move that it should
in Ireland where it should appear
that there were only tour, or less than four, Protestants, that
all the income and emoluments arising from such parishes
should be applied to a fund for the maintenance
Catholic College of Maynooth—( Hear, av )o f the
However,Rom a n
if the Honourable Member for Sheffield should not