The Sun.
London, England, 1845-02-18 00:00:00

venue. Let that question be discussed on its own grounds, and
let them not be led, step by step, into a position from
which it would be utterly impossible for them to re-
cede. He believed that the course adopted would
leave the financial affairs of this country in an im-
proper state. One of the causes of attacks made
upon the late Government arose out of the posi-
tion of the revenue. Numbers were interested in the public
credit and looked with a jealous eye to the state of the revenue,
and when the present Government came into power they pro-
posed, in order to remedy the evil, the imposition of the in-
come-tax. The revenue was sufficient—the evil was carried,
and a surplus had been obtained. But would they wish it to be
said if, when they had submitted to this burden of three years,
lie were again starting on the same course, when the Hon. Gen-
tleman proposed a system which would realise at best a sur-
plus of only 90,0001. Yet such he believed would be the
result of the financial course of the Government. The Right
Hon. Gentleman calculated upon 15,000 tons of foreign clayed
sugar, producing 42,0001., 5 000 tons of foreign muscovado,
producing 116,0001., and 23,000 tons of British clayed pro-
ducing 375,0001. This made up the 43,000 tons upon which
he calculated, and which would increase the consumption far
beyond anything ever known in this country. But upon these
43,000 tons depended no less than 911,0001., of which
amount, if the increased consumption did not take
place, the revenue would of course be deficient.
He would suppose that the in _reas.e would be half what had
been calculated ; still there would be a deficiency of half-a-mil-
lion. But even supposing the whole were realised, there was
one source of expenditure which ought not to be overlooked.
Reports had been made by Government Commissioners recom-
mending the construction of harbours of refuge on the south-
eastern coast, and it was es'imated that four millions would be
necessary to complete the work. He contended that no delay
ought to take place in commencing those works. It was incum-
bent on the Government to begin within the year, and half-a-
rea:lion at least would be required for that purpose.
He considered that the income-tax being continued for a
limited period was a less evil than imposing new taxes. He
did not think that voting for the income-tax on this ground
was acting at all inconsistently with opinions which he had be-
fore expressed. He could only say, with regard to the amend-
ment of the Hon. Member for Bath, that if the income-tax
were intended to be a permanent measure, the proposition of
the Hon. Gentleman might be worth consideration, but as the
tax was to be for a limited period only, he did not think it was
necessary to make any modification in it.
Colonel CONOLLY said, that judging- from the limited
period during which this tax had been in operation he thought
it would be good and sound policy. to continue it.—(Loud
laughter.) In the first place the income-tax relieved the
country from the deficit which the Hon. Member for Halifax
bad warned the Government from falling into again, and
relieved them from many evils which they had experienced.
The Hon. Member for Halifax appeared very much to bewail
the possibility of having so small a surplus as a million
and a half. He (Colonel Conolly) certainly preferred this to
a deficit.—(Hear, hear.) The income-tax had been the
means of restoring the stability and the credit of the country.
It had enabled the Minister to reduce the interest ma'am public
debt. That was indisputable. He thought that in the position
in which he was placed he was called upon to state why he
thought the income-tax ought to be continued.—(Laughter.)
He considered that it was a benefit to the country from whence
he came.—( Loud laughter.) It was a benefit to that country,
for it had relieved the great distress of the landed interest
there.—(Roars of laughter.) It was a positive and distinct
relief, and, up to the present hour, it had progressed in
abating the distresses of that country. That was distinctly in
consequence of the restoration of public credit. There were a
great number of landed proprietors in Ireland, friends of his
own, who had been distinctly enabled to relieve their estates.—
(The Hon. Gentleman was here greeted with a roar of laugh-
ter from all parts of the House, which completely drowned the
remainder of the sentence.) Why, did Honourable Gen•
tlemen consider that no advantage ?--( Continued laughter.)
All these advantages had been produced by the very measure
which it was now by Hon. Gentlemen opposite sought to con-
demn. Hon. Gentlemen might laugh, but he could assure
them this was the case. The landed proprietors of Ireland
could now give employment to the labouring poor, for those
landed proprietors could now raise money at four per cent.—.
(Great laughter)—whereas formerly they were compelled to
pay six per cent.—(Continued laughter.) The income-tax,
therefore, had relieved them from their embarrassments.
( The House was here again thrown into convulsions of laugh-
ter.) He considered that the measure was a great blessing,
and was calculated to invigorate industry and promote com-
merce. Railways had now sprung up, together with other
schemes of enterprise, " for capitalists," said the Hon. Gen-
tleman, "have now a probability of certain remuneration for
their money." (This somewhat novel expression of
the Honourable and Gallant Officer drew forth a
burst of laughter, which was continued for some
time, and renewed again and again at intervals.) It was very
easy for Hon. Members to laugh, but he thought their derision
would cease when they were compelled to listen.—( Hear,
hear, and more laughter.) What had been done during the
present session showed that there was a desire in this country
to conciliate Ireland, and to do everything which was calca-
lated to increase the prosperity of that country—( Hear, hear,
from Sir Robert Peel)—and he believed it would go far to
cement the union between the two countries. For these rea-
sons he would vote for the proposition of the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman at the head of the Government.
Mr. G. BANKES was not surprised at the light-heartedness
which had been exhibited by Hon. Gentlemen opposite, seeing
that the cause of it was the prosperity of Ireland. He trusted
that that prosperity would go on increasing, and that ere long
a sense of justice in the people of that country would induce
them to insist 'upon bearing, equally with this country, the
burden of the income-tax ; for he could assure his Hon. Friend
that there were now in various parts of England depressions as
serious, and distresses as alarming, as those which had been de-
scribed by his Hon. Friend as formerlyexisting in the sister island.
The income-tax was imposed at a time when the agricultu-
ral interest was in a more flourishing condition. The Noble
Lord, the Member for London, and the Hon. and Learned
Member alluded to, made reference to that interest. They did
not let it pass without remark, thaugh his Right Hon.
Friend at the head of the Government, and the Right Hon.
Gentleman, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, did not in any
way allude to it.—(Great laughter. ) And he perceived this
with regret, because that such distress existed had been con-
veyed to the Government in plain terms, and they left it to
the Government to apply such remedy as was in their power.
The Hon. and Learned Member for Bath spoke of the pre-
ponderating power of the agricultural interest, though he
thought the Hon. and Learned gentleman l'ad not chosen
the happiest time for such an allusion.—( Laughter.) But,
if such was the fact that they had such influence, permit
him to say he was unable to find any trace of it.
Why, in the present Budget, everything was given
to the commercial and manufacturing interest,
and nothing to the agricultural.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon.
and Learned Member very properly observed, that the greatest
attention was manifested and paid to Manchester and Glasgow,
in the important reductions which had been made, which he
(Mr. Bankes) as an agriculturist (and he believed he spoke the
feelings of the agricultural interest) saw with pleasure.—
(Hear, hear.) There was no jealousy of the manufacturing
interest felt by the agriculturists. And, allow him to say,
it was not only since the reductions which had been made that
a preponderating influence had been manifested towards the
mercantile and commercial interest, but in the increase of ex-
penditure the same objects were in view. —( Hear, hear.)
For why was the navy estimate to be increased by upwards
of a million? Why, because in China and the Pacific there
were found new outlets and new opportnnities for extending
throughout the world that power they happily possessed.
It was to protect their commerce that this million was to
be contributed and the agriculturists paid their share of the
burden cheerfully. —(Cheers.) Was their army to be re-
duced? No. Was that because the army was wanted in the
agrioultural districts? In the county be represented he did
not believe there was a single soldier. The army was re-
quired for the colonies. But did the agricultural interest com-
plain of being called to maintain it?—(Hear, hear.) By no
means. If then it was said they were a powerful and prepon-
derating influence' it could not,at least be said they were a sel-
fish one. —( Hear,, hear.) The Noble Lord, the Member for
London, who alluded to them, did not hold out to them that en-
couragement which they might wish to receive in ease they
did not desire to continue their preponderance for the present
Government. The Noble Lord dealt with them more ten-
derly than he did with other interes's, and he alluded with
something of triumph to the silk trade. He said that before
the monopoly was removed that trado was subject
to great alternations of prosperity and depression, but at last
the question was settled, but the whole of the silk trade in
London were ruined, and if he did not mistake it was while
the Noble Lord was in power, that there was a ball at which
the Queen was requested to attend, for the purpose of relieving
the distress of the Spitalfields' weavers. The silk trade con-
sisted of a small number of persons, and they were easily over-
come, but that was not the case with the agricultural interest,
and the ruin of which would include 7-9ths of the people of
this country.—( Oh, oh.) That was his belief. The case of
the silk weavers therefore was no encouragement to the agricul-
turists. It was admitted the other night, by the Hon. Alembe.r
for Durham, that if they had a free trade, corn would be some-
thing dearer than it was at present; for, in the Channel
Islands, where the trade was free, it was dearer than it was
here, so that they had that advantage from the protection which
was complained of. With regard to the present vote, as it
seemed to be agreed to on both sides of the House, he had no
choice left but to agree to it, though, looking at the stateof the
agricultural interest, he should be sorry to see a permanent in-
come-tax.—( Hear. )
Mr. WARBURTON said he agreed with the Rig,ht Hon.
Member for Halifax that if the duties on articles of consump-
tion were reduced, there would not be any necessity for the
income-tax.—( Hear, hear.) He also agreed with him as to
the impolicy of a differential duty on sugar in favour of the
West Indies. They were now going to increase that diffe-
rential duty, because every one knew that almost the whole
quantity of sugar from the West Indies came in the state of
Muscovado sugar, but that which came from the East Indies
was clayed sugar, so that that was a practical increase of the
differential duty of 10s. by 2s. 4d. But he would not have
risen on this occasion but for the allusion which had been made
to what had fallen from him a few nights ago, by the Noble
Lord and the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. Now, all he
would say on the present occasion was, that he believed the
prosperity of the country would be greatly increased by a
permanent system of taxation-( Hear, hear)—because
a far greater proportion of the tax, when directly levied, would
come into the public revenue than when it was levied indi-
rectly.—(Hear, hear.) And he thought he saw some symp-
toms of an approach to such'a system, as contradistinguished
from the indirect system, during the present debate ; and if
the former were adopted, he thought it would be wholly to the
advantage of the country, and that the great mass of arti-
sans and small traders would be particularly benefited by it
But then he came to the consideration of in what manner that
system of direct taxation should be carried on ? In condemn-
ing the system of direct taxation, as it was now carried on, he
entirely agreed with the Noble Lord in characterising it as
very unwise.—(Hear, hear.) The present plan of taxation,
as regarded income 'and property, was to lay on the tax for a
short period ; that was making a short annuity and a long
one subject to the same degree of taxation. Npw,
what could be more unjust-than that? It was condemnatory
of the tax to lay it on for a short period. Now he would
shortly refer to the substitute that was proposed by the Hon.
Member for Bath. He did not care whether the income was
levied for professional toil or manufacturing toll ; but what he
would say was this, that the system of taxation was unequal
when they levied the same amount of per tentage on income
gained by professional toil, as on income derived from land.
Now the substitute the Honourable and Learned Member for
Bath proposed was this—he would take it that they were
about to lay an income-tax on for one year, said the Hon.
Member for Bath.;On the man who had property in land or the
funds, he would lay on a certain per tentage heavier than on the
man whei derived his income from manufacturing or profes-
sional sional toil. Why did he draw these distinctions? H'by
might be for these reasons, that the person who. hadt,,,t
a_iter
terest in land for the one year, ha-I a reversionar)e, interest
was
its expiration. Now, to tax a persen n
was utterly impracticable, and the conclusion
impossible, the plan therefore of the Hon. Member
tilLertmhb:=Bfroatmh
for a short period was
that was, that to lay on an
must
te levy
permanent,it with j uasntdi c
teo,
aunnjdutshtey.
clofutlhdenyohtaddo
sit
without
anytaiil:l),:ottTiey-
p osi disposition. i on. If he
the Hon.
thought there was arlcha
do that the Howie did not:cc:mot,
othsehopwro
Member for Rye coming to a vote he would support it, but as
he saw no chance of that, he should offer no opposition to the
present proposition.
Mr. R., pALMER thought that, looking at the condition
of the agricultural interest, it was not too much to- stippbse
that they should expect that something should have appeared

but 47,974,000/.—(Hear, hear.) Therefore he thought
that an increase of revenue would be produced by a
judicious reduction of the taxation pressing upon in-
dustry. The stimulus given to industry, when the re-
duction was made with justice, and upon those which
should be best selected, would be such that in the next
three years a result similar to that produced in the last
three years might be expected. It was on that antici-
pation the Ministers grounded the measure, which, he
trusted, the House would now sanction. He confidently
expected such an improvement in commerce
and manufactures, and consequently such an
improvement in the revenue, as would at
the end of three years enable the House to say whether
any further change should take place or not. He had
been surprised to hear the Noble Lord (Lord John
Russell) say that there was no certainty that
i the reduc-
tion of taxation proposed would produce an ncrease of
revenue, because there were some articles upon which
reduction had taken place, and there had been no in-
crease.—(Hear.) With all deference to the Noble Lord,
he thought he was not correct in his facts, and that if he
were correct in them, he was incorrect in his deductions
from them. It was true (as we understood), that in
the case of wool—(Hear, hear, from the leading Opposi-
tion bench)—the increase had been quite commensurate
with the reduction. The cost of the article
had been diminished:. There had been a larger
number of consumers, and those persons were enabled,
by the reduction, to expend more in the consumption of
other articles.—(Hear, hear.) But it was a very nar-
row view of the reduction and repeal of taxes, when the
Noble Lord would have them look only to the effect of
an increase in the particular tax reduced. If that doc-
trine were admitted, they should repeal no tax ; -for
every tax repealed was, to that extent, a loss to the
revenue. But, speaking from practical experience,
every reduction or repeal of taxation pressing upon in-
dustry was attended with an improvement of the re-
venue.—(Hear.) He confidently affirmed that past ex-
perience j ustified their anticipations in the present instance.
—(Hear.) Looking back to an antecedent period—
(Lord J Russell, " Lord Althorpn—yes; at that period
a reduction of taxes which had subsisted for a long term
of years was effected. In the year immediately preced-
ing that in which his friends (the Chancellor of
the Exchequer's) and himself went out of office, and the
Noble Lord opposite and his friends succeeded them in
offiee, a very large repeal of taxes was made,"and in the two
years following taxes to the amount of 5,700,000/. were
reduced or repealed. That reduction apparently brought
the revenue to be expected down to 45 millions from 50
millions and sonic odd hundred thousands ; but in the
year that immediately followed there was an increase
upon the remaining taxes of 3,500,0001., bringing
the revenue up to upwards of 48,000,000/. ; and in
the year 1835 the revenue was nearly the same
as before the reduction took place.—(Hear, hear.) That
was a proof of what might be expected from the judi-
cious repeal of taxes, and, taken with the result ofthe re-
ductions in 1842, justified the present expectations of the
Government.—(Hear.) He could assure the Right
Hon. Gentleman the Member for Devonpart, that if Pro-
vidence blessed the country with seasons of average pro-
ductiveness, they would be in a condition to leave it in
the hands of the House in three years to say whether they
e
snnin
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whether
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dedoteyoshf
expenditure,vmooio fur Ho cauo.esunanet i.lw3p‘n
continuenhaur desielcsttttheohhwn
the same
was
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imposed.
ftloeode;00. question
dui
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t
were impased in periods of war, when it was not .neces-
sag to regard the effect which they might have in re •
stricting oar commerce with foreign nations ; and their
sole object was to raise from our own subjects the money
necessary for the national defence. Those taxes had
been continued in a long period of peace to maintain the
national expenditure ; and it was not surprising that
they should now be found but little adapted to the
altered circumstances of the country in respect to
foreign trade and domestic industry. That being the
case, although he admitted that the income-tax was
direct and unpalatable, he thought the House should
consider whether it was not wise to continue it
for a time longer, for the purpose of relieving the
country from those taxes which interfered with trade
and national industry.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gen-
tleman who moved the amendment wished to relieve a
class from the burden of the income-tax ; but he did not
state the matter as if he so much wished an exemption
for that class, as to obtain an exemption under the ap-
pearance of more equal taxation.—(Hear.) What was
the Honourable Member's objection ? He (Mr.
Roebuck) said that the real and funded pro-
perty ought to bear the burden, and that property
which was not realised, ought to be exempt. That was
the argument which was offered when the tax was first
imposed. But Mr. Pitt's answer was, that it was wrong
to arrange taxation so as to cause capital to be diverted
from one line of investment into another, to ensure more
profit. If you said that land and funded property should
be subject to the tax, which other capital was not sub-
ject to, you gave an encouragement to the selling of land
and funds, end the investment of it in trade and com-
merce.—(Hear, hear.) Now he (the Chancellor of the
waswas thefor itihijeustoihee.
ject of a direct and actual relief of the
of Exchequer)
ccontinuing
gw o
thisuhl aske
which
public generally, from the pressure of taxes to
which they were now subject?—and those were taxes
which did not press more upon the mau of fixed pro-
perty than upon the professional man. The Hon. Gen-
tleman himself would be as much benefited by the relief
as the capitalist or landlord. He would, equally with
the public in general, be benefited by the reduction of
the sugar duties and the repeal of those upon glass. But
was the arrangement possible to secure that every man
should make a full return of his income from every
source? The Noble Lord opposite (Lord J. Russell)
objected that the tax was inquisitorial—would it be less
so if the proposition of the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Roe-
buck) were adopted, or would the public feel it less
odious than the Hon. Gentleman said it was, if it
were extended to every man?—(Hear, hear.) It was
now extended to a very limited portion of the public.
But the Hon. Gentleman would have every man make
the return upon oath. The Right Hon. Member for Des
vonport told the House, that lie would not consent to
that. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) concnrred
in the Right Hon. Gentleman's decided opposition to
that expedient.—(Hear, hear.) For years past the Le-
gislature had been endeavouring to abolish oaths of
that nature. As for instance in the Customs and the
Excise, which had been found to be wholly ineffectual.
Let the Hon. Gentleman suppose what the effect of his
proposition would be. When the tax was first imposed,
it epplied (as he, Mr. Roebuck, proposed) to every per-
son, and the product was 15,000,000/. It now was sr)
much limited, that it produced only 5,000,000/.
The Hon. Gentleman had said, what was quite inap-
plicable to the case, that the test of insurance which was
applied to clerks in public offices would serve as a test
for the incomes of other persons. He could assure the
lion. Gentleman that no such test was applicable.
[Mr. Roebuck said he had not said any such thing.]
To come now to what had been said by the Noble Lord
on the subject of the auction duty. It was to him matter
of regret that the Hon. Gentleman the last Chancellor
of the Exchequer was not in his place, for if that Right
Hon. Gentleman were at the Noble Lord's elbow, he
would tell him that the objections to that duty were
strong and pressing, and that he would have recom-
mended its repeal when he held office, if he could have
suggested a means of meeting the deficiency. He thought
that the Nubl Lord, with all his disposition to find fault
with measures proposed by the present Government,
would find it hard to convince that Right Honourable
Gentleman, the Member for Portsmouth, that they ,were
wrong in submitting the auction -duty for repeal. He
did not think either that the Noble Lord would be dis-
posed to coalesce with the Hon. Member for Lincoln, in
calling for a repeal of the duty upon insurance, in pre-
ference to those taxes now proposed for repeal. He
would not now enter into topics which would bring on
a lengthened discussion of details. Shortly before the
time when he would have to go into the whole subject
of the present measure, the sugar question would be
brought under the discussion of the House by a motion
of which an Hon. Member had given notice. On this
subject the Noble Isird opposite was altogether opposed
to him (the Chancellor of the Exchequer.) The Noble
Lord would equalise the duties, which, in his (the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer's) opinion, would encourage
slavery. It was, in his opinion (as we understood),
quite another question in respect to cotton, to encourage
the cultivation of which was not so great an encou-
ragement to the slave trade as the cultivation of sugar.
But, as he said, he should reserve those points connected
with sugar until the time should arrive when, the subject
being fully before them, they would be enabled to discuss
it •in all its details. It was sufficient to know that,
generally speaking, the House was not disposed to object
to the resolution placed in the Hon. Chairman's hands.
It was enough for the House to decide whether con-
tinuing the property-tax for a limited period was a
desirable measure. The Noble Lord had told them that
the tax was liable to Induce fraud to enable parties to
avoid making proper returns, but the Noble Lord forgot
to mention those taxes which were not liable to fraud.
Would the Noble Lord tell him whether there had been
as much fraud induced by the income-tax as the Excise ?
Whetherit had been so often evaded as the duties ofExcise?
Whether there was a greater temptation in the one case
to make false statements, with a view to being relieved
from a small portion of taxation ? Whether there was
not an equal, or more temptation to evade a duty which
produced a large and more beneficial result to the party
committing the fraud.?—(Hear.) Set the fraud on the
one side and the fraud on the other, and he could not attri-
bute to this one particular tax that degree of liability to
fraud which might attach to another. Fraud operated
more or less upon every tax that was imposed upon the
country (Hear.) The Hon. and Learned 'Gentleman
had told them that in repealing the duty on glass they
had abolished the duty on the chandeliers of the rich,
but the windows of the poor were left without any re-
lief whatsoever.—(Hear, hear.) The Honourable
Gentleman must have spoken upon the subject
without having first made himself acquainted
withitsdetails, or he would have known the duty on
chandelier glass was infinitely greater than the duty on
crown glass.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. and Learned
Gentleman, therefore, could not have given the subject
due consideration.— (Hear, hear.) There not appearing
to be ary disposition to maintain any other subject than
the one mentioned in the resolution, he thought he
should best consult the convenience of the Roux., and
promote the advantage of fair discussion, by reserving any
observations he might be inclined to make till the
period when the sugar and other customs' duties should
come before the House.—(Hear.)
Mr. C. WOOD expected the Right Hon. Gentleman
who last spoke would have given some details to show
the grounds on which he hoped that, (luring the course
of the next three years, those sources of revenue which
were left would so far increase as to enable them to
take off the income-tax.—(Hear, hear.) He expected
to hear .something more than a mere general assertion,
that in souse cases the reduction of the duty on an
article had been followed by an increase on another. It

was a principle to which no one in that House could
object. But the whole question turned upon what the
Right Hon. Gentleman had stated, that a judicious
selection had been made in the articles to be reduced.
Was the selection so judicious as to warrant an ex-
pectation that the revenue would rise to such an extent
as to justify the expectation that the Government
would be able to get rid of this impost at the end of
three years. Now, he thought, in the absence of any
attempts to show this, either by the Right
Hon. Baronet on Friday night, or by the Right Hon.
Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer on that
night, which articles were likely to produce this increase,
it was only left for him to meet an assertion by a
counter- assertion. He said, then, there was no reason
able ground for expecting such a rise in the revenue.--
(Hear, hear.) He thought that the experience of the
last few years showed that the hope expressed by the
Right Hon. Gentleman was not quite so well-founded as
the Right Hon. Gentleman was pleased to say it was.
When the income-tax was proposed three years ago,
trade was in a reduced state, and the tax
was not likely to realise an extraordinary
large sum. Since then, however, things had
changed, profits had considerably increased, and hence
the returns to the "revenue would be nearly double what
was formerly realised. But he believed the income-tax
was acquiesced in upon the assurance repeatedly made
in that House by the Right lion. Baronet, that it was in-
tended to decrease a deficiency in the public Exchequer,
and so soon as the deficiency was made up, the impost
was to be discontinued. Now, they saw from this that
the tax was founded upon a state of things which existed
no longer, and, although another assurance was held out
that it was to be continued for three years
only, there was every possibility of its being
made ultimately permanent. He thought Hon. Gentle
men had said, however, that it was desirable the tax
should be kept under their control, and that at the ex-
piration of three years they would have the power to
reconsider it, but he confessed this was all he had heard
to induce him to believe that the tax would be of a tem-
porary, instead of a permanent character. At the time
the tax was first imposed there was a deficiency in the
revenue of two millions and a half ; and he was pre-
pared to say. that this was not a sufficient defi-
ciency to justify the imposition of a tax of
so oppressive a character. But as he had
said before, the House and the country, relying on the
temporary nature of the tax; consented to allow its oppo-
nents to remain in a minority, when the question was
first brought forward. Had there not been such a pro-
mise held out of its non-continuance he very much
doubted whether it would have met with the slightest
approbation. It • was stated when it was first brought
forward that the tax pressed more on the rich than the
artizan. This was net the case, for the experience of
the last three years had proved that the income tax was
a burden on the employment of the . population of
the country. There was another objection -to
the tax. It was confined to England. Why should
an Irish gentleman, possessing an income of 500/. a•year, be
relieved from paying the income-tax. There was no reason
why the rich man in Ireland should not contribute his share
of the tax as well as the rich man in England. In this coun-
try there was some want of employment, but in Ireland the
want was painfully great. The Right Hon. Baronet, how-
ever, exempted the rich Irish gentleman from the tax, and im-
posed upon him another burden, which induced him to spend
his money in other parts of the world. Now, in no country
was it so desirable that capital should be introduced as it was
in Ireland, where there was a large demand for employ-
ment, and, to meet this demand, a very considerable
capital would be required. The rich gentleman was exempted
from the income-tax, and in its stead was a burden which
pressed more or less on the great body of the people. They
were told that in the reductions made on, various articles of
consumption they would derive a benefit equal to an equivalent
for the income-tax. Now, they had had some experience
upon this of late, but he would defy any gentleman to get up
and tell him that the country had derived any
very material benefit from the former reductions
made by ;the Right Hon. Baronet. The Government had
taken credit to themselves for relieving the country horn
certa'n duties, but it struck him very forcibly that his Noble
Friend (Lord John Russell) was entitled to participate in this
triumph ; for it would be remembered that his Noble Friend
voted with him when he made a motion, last year, for re-
ducing the duty on wool, while Hon. Gentlemen on the other
side of the House swelled the majority which defeated his in-
tention. It was not a little remarkable that, on refer-
ring to the list of articles on which there had been a falling off
in the duty, it would be found that there was no material in-
crease in the consumption. It was still more remarkable that
in the articles upon which no change whatever had been
made, a very considerable increase was observable in the re-
turns of the imports. In the import duties delivered, he found
that with the exception of coffee no increase whatever had
taken place in the articles, the duty on which had been reduced
by the last tariff. In tin there was an increase, and also in
coffee, but in four other articles reduced there was no increase
whatever—that was in camomile, boots and shoes, corks, and
damasks. There was one article, however, in which there had
been considerable increase. lie found there were 600 tons of
copper ore raised, he believed, by slave labour.—(Loud
cSeers from the Opposition benches.) When they came to the
other great articles of consumption—those articles with which
the Right Hon. Baronet did not deal—they found a large and
considerable increase. There was• a great increase in the im-
portation of oranges, India sugar, molasses, tea, currants, in
which no reduction had been made in the duties. In raisins,
an article of immense consumption, there had been a large in-
crease, notwithstanding the heavy duty imposed on them. The
same increase was visible in cigars, sponges, ginger, and other
articles. It would be observable that this increase was not
attributable to the reduction of the duty, but on account of the
great prosperity of the country.—(Great cheering from the
Ministerial benches.) Ah, but this prosperity was not in con-
sequence of the small reduction of duty, but it was caused by
circumstances. They had had, for instance, cheap corn. An
increase had been made in the imports to China ;
and really, altogether, this prosperity was attributable
to causes not at all under the control of the
Government. The impost was proposed to be continued, to
enable the Government to make experiments in taxation ;
quite a different reason to that assigned three years ago, and it
was necessary that they should now form their conclusions upon
past experience. Now, this past experience of tho last year
or two, made it evident that the reductions proposed by the
Government were not of a nature to make an important alte-
ration in the revenue of the country. It was necessary that
they should satisfy themselves on this point, before they sanc-
tioned the continuance of this tax, as they would find it would
become a permanency, without their being able to help them-
selves. Ile was aware that some Honourable Gentlemen
behind him were favourable to its continuance, but he
believed the majority of the House held a contrary opinion.
Now, he wished to go over the Right Honourable Baro-
net's statement. In the first place, in reference to the ex-
penditure. It amounted, last year, to 48,700,000/.; and it
was proposed this year to increase it one million. He con-
curred ix the necessity of this increase, for the additional fortifi•
cation of our ports would require a large expenditure.
The navy, as far as he was able to judge, would require
augmentation; and, under these circumstances, he could see
no reason why the increase should not take place. The Right
Hon. Baronet stated the receipts, from ordinary sources, to be
47,900,0":0/., and from the income-tax, 9,700,0001., making a
total of 57,600,000/. The total expenditure fair -next year
would be 49,700,000/., leaving a surplus of 3,400,000/., and
with that sum the Right Hon. Baronet proposed to deal. He
entirely concurred in the statement of the Right Hon. Baronet,
that they ought to leave the consideration of the China money
out of the question altogether.—( Hear, hear.) The Right
Honourable Baronet, therefore, very properly omitted it.
The Right Hon. Gentleman, with a surplus of 3,400,0001.,
proposed a reduction of duties to the amount of 3,310,0001.,
thus leaving himself a surplus of 90,0)0/. Now, the items
upon which the Right lion. Gentleman proposed an alteration
might be divided into two classes. Upon one class he reduced
the whole of the duty ; and,
so far as that was concerned,
there was a total loss. This class included glass, the smaller
articles in the tariff, coal, mad the auction duty. With respect
to •the latter duty, he had not heard any strong
argument in favour of its reduction. lie regretted that
his Right Hon. Friend the late Chancellor of the Exchequer
was not in his place, for if he were he believed that it would
be found that the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) had
rather gratuitously assumed that he would approve of the
selection of the auction duty as a fit item for reduction. He
should not say anything in opposit;on to the proposal with
respect to coals, unless it were that he could not
reconcile the wisdom of taking off the duty new,
with the reasons alleged fur imposing it two
years ago. Upon these articles there would be a diminution
of revenue amounting to two millions, and the Right Hon.
Gentleman had not given them the least notion as to how he
expected that that deficiency would be made up. He hid as-
sumed an increase of 500,000/. upon the Excise, but he (Mr.
C. Wood) did not see the smallest ground for such an assump-
tion. Again, what right had they to expect a great increase
in the receipts from the Customs ? He hoped that the
increase,
but prosperity would continue and even
but there was no probability that it would do so to a sufficient
extent. He would not now argue the whole question of the
sugar duties—he would not repeat the arguments against the
distinction made between slave-grown and free-grown sugar,
but would deal with the question solely as one of revenue. He
did not, however, understand the 70,000 tons of British clayed
sugar which the Right Hon. Baronet expected to receive.
Great difference of opinion had been expressed by great au-
thorities in reference to that subject. If the 70,000 tons were
East India sugar, then it might be urged that the duty on West
and East India sugar having been equalised, and on the faith
of that equalisation capital having been sent out to India, large
manufactories established, and preparations made for car-
rying on an extensive trade with this country, the
parties who were engaged in such speculations
had a right to complain of the conduct of the Government.—
( Hear hear.) On the other hand, if it were true that the East
India Sugar would come in, not as white clayed sugar, hut as
something else, then he anticipated that the benefit to the re-
venue was scattered tolhe winds. They were driven to the
necessity either of admitting that hardships were inflicted on the
East India speculators, or that there would be a loss of revenue
to the amount of 160,0001.-(Hear, hear.) It was quite clear
that at present the difference of duty upon British colonial sugar
was obout 40 per cent.; and he believed that if the proposition
of sthe Government were carried out, it would not be less
than 100 per cent. The Right t Hon Gentleman stated that
the highest quantity hitherto imparted for home consumption
was 207,000 tons, and it would be found that 1711 pounds per
head was the greatest consumption which bad ever been known
of late years in this country. Taking the population at
18,000,000, 210,000 tons would appear to be the maximum
amount consumed. The two statements very nearly agreed.
Now the Right lion. Gentleman calculated on an increase of
43,000 tons beyond that amount ; and if that increase
were not realised, the Right Hon. Gentleman would lose ene-
fifth of the income which remained from that source. He an-
ticipated that the increase was one which could not possibly be
obtained within the year. He contended, then, that neither
from the Excise nor from the Customs was there the slightest
reason to expect such an increase in the revenue as would
enable Parliament to take off the income-tax at the end of
three years. He had not the slightest doubt that if the sugar
duties were dealt with upon different principles, the income
derived from that source might be much increased. They
had not as yet derived the full benefit which might be secured
from that source. lie believed that if the Customs' duties
generally were dealt with in a proper manner, the income-tax
might be taken off at the expiration of three years; but if that
were not the case, there was no hope of obtaining such a result,
might rely upon it that they
and Hon. Gentlemen opposite
would have to pay the income-tax all their lives. The
result of the present system was to obtain only the
minimum of the revenue. If the House of CoM-
mons did not interfere to prevent the continuance of
this system of indirect taxation, there was no alternative but
direct taxation. No other means would exist of paying the
public creditor except the direct payment of the income-tax.
It would be impossible without such a resource to make the
revenue equal to the expenditure of the country. It was im-
possible to deal with the income-tax without combining w:th
it other questions ; and he wishes,i Hon. Gentlemen to be
warned in time as to the consequences of the system which
Hon. Gentlemen had adopted and veere 'now pursuing. Let
the question be fully and fairly discussed whether or not the
income-tax was to be considered the permanent source of ro-

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 18, 154.5.

in the Budget in their behalf, especially when the large sur-
plus the Government had in hand was considered. He re-
gretted very much that it appeared not to be in the power of the
Government to relax some portion of that taxation that would
relieve them. lie hoped that the Right Hon. Baronet would
not be mistaken in supposing that his measures would do good,
not only for the agricultural but the manufacturing inte-
rests; he thought, however, from what he had seen, that
the greatest disappointment was felt with respect
to the course pursued by the Right Hon. Baronet on Friday
last. The House was now called upon to renew the income-
tax for three years, and according to the statements of the
Right Hon. Gentleman he hoped that at the expiration of that
period he would be enabled to give it up. He ( Mr. Palmer)
trusted that the Right Honourable Baronet's hopes would be
realised, and that he would find himself correct in that respect.
The income-tax as a permanent one would be an intolerable evil.
When the discussion of the income-tax took piece in 1842, he
recollected what he said on that occasion, and that was, that
those who derived their income from the funds or real pro-
perty, had a greater stake in the country than those who de-
rived it from professions or manufactures, and that therefore
they ought to pay a greater rate of duty. He c ,nsidered the
income eax, as it was now levied, most unjust. He thought,
however, if the proposition of the Honourable Member for
Bath were carried into operation, it would have the
effect of excluding those who obtained their in-
comes from professions or manufactures from the
operation of the tax altogether, and that was never intended.
He thought that this must be the case, for, unless he was mis-
taken, if these words were left out of the resolution, the par-
ties assessed under schedule 0 would be exempted from the
operation of the tax. He agreed, however, that those parties
ought to be charged in a ratio stenewhat different from the
holders of real property. He could not vote for a proposition
which would exclude them from the assessment of the tax
altogether.
Mr. M. GIBSON sakl, from what had fallen from the Hon.
Member who last sat down, and frcm the lion. Member for
Dorsetshire, in reference to the alleged neglect of the agri-
cultural interest, he must say, in the language of the Right
Hon. Secretary of State for the Home Department, with re-
spect to Ireland, that " concession had been carried to its
utmost limits."—(" Hear," and laughter.) It would be highly
satisfactory if the Hon. Gentleman and his friends would point
out the particular grievances of which they complained. The
universal remark which he had heard made was, that the agri-
cultural interest enjoyed great exemptions from taxation, and
that in distributing the national burdens, particular care had
been taken to throw the largest amount of them on the com-
mercial and manufacturing community, and leaving, in many
important items of taxation, the agricultural interest untouched.
But he would not dwell on this subject, as the question imme-
diately before them was the income-tax. He felt a little diffi-
culty as to the course he should take on the preposition of the
Honourable Member for Bath. Nor could he go with the
Honourable Member for Kendal, though he agreed with him
that' when a man got rid of his income he got rid of his
income-tax also.—(Laughter.) There could be no doubt
of that, and that he supposed was what his Hon. Friend meant.
—(Laughter.) If a man could be supposed to be immortal,
and to have enjoyed his income all his life, ho would also have
paid the income-tax in perpetuity. But the more fortunate
man who got lid of his income in three or four years, would
not have that cause of complaint, as he would only have paid
his income-tax for three or four years. But he (Mr. M. Gib-
son) could not look on the matter in this light. It appeared to
him that there was a wide difference between an income made
by professional and mercantile exertions and real property.
But still he was not disposed to agree that the trading commu-
nity ought to be exempt from paying the income-
tax. He did not think that offices and trades ought
not to pay some amount of income-tax on their re-
turns; but the most reasonable course would be, if some plan
could be devised to effect it, to capitalise income. He believed
that had been done in former times. He was informed by his
Hon. Friend the -Member for Montrose that it was done in
the property-tax of 1692, and he referred to the statute-book
to find if there could be any possibility of such an enactment,
and be found his Hon. Friend was correct. He found there
that, in trade and manufactures, the capital employed was
valued. Here the duty was computed on the interest which
would be received on such capital. Thus, if a man's goods,
or mill, or machinery, was valued at 100/., the interest of the
capital was computed at five per cent., and the person paid on
an income of 51. Now, in 1692, the Government was in
great want of money, and unwilling to remit any portion
of taxation. At that time there was actually a tax on births
marriages and deaths, on widowers and bachelors ; yet even
then it was not thought necessary to put the same tax on in-
come as was imposed on real property. Now, if that was done
before, why could it not be done again ? He thought it would
be a very reasonable proposition to move for a Select Com-
mittee to inquire whether some amount, and, if any, what
amount ought to be placed on trades, professions, and offices,
and also to inquire whether some less vexatious and inquisi-
torial mode of laying it on professions might not be suggested ?
He thought that met the whole case. Disapproving as he did
of imposing the same amount on income as on property, he
should support the proposition of the Hon. Member fur Bath,
but he should have preferred letting the present resolution
pess, and when the Bill was in Committee, the Hon. and
Learned Member might have taken the opportunity of pro-
posing by way of amendment some practical plan like that he
bad alluded to.
Mr. MILES said he had not on a former occasion objected
to the income-tax, because he felt that unless it was imposed
there could not possibly be any reduction of taxation that
could benefit the country ; nor could any great reduction be
made unless it was kept on for some time longer. If the income-
tax gave additional vigour to the industry of the country, and
at the same time enabled them to relieve some of the direct
burdens on agriculture, he believed it would be a blessing.—
(Laughter)—aye, a perfect blessing—( Great laughter)—if it
was imposed only for a limited time.—(Laughter.) If it
was proposed to make it permanent, he for one would
say, No ! He did think that the Right Honourable
Baronet had introduced this measure with the best
intentions, but he must say he had not considered all the in-
terests connected with the question. He found commerce and
manufactures both flourishing, at least as compared with the
two or three years past; but he found agriculture in a de-
pressed state, and yet there was no attempt indirectly to re-
lieve agriculture at all. He was not one of those to stand up
in that House and ask the Right Hon. Baronet to take off the
malt- tax, for, in the first place, his surplus would not allow it ;
and, in the next place, he did not wish that the agriculturists
should monopolise the whole of the reduction that could be
made. But when the Right Hon. Baronet was asking for the
continuance of a tax which amounted to 3,400,000 t., he did
think that agriculture should be considered as well as
manufactures and commerce. He thought, considering the
party who immediately supported the Right Hon. Baronet,
and the small remission which had been made in direct taxa-

tion, a great benefit might have been conferred on agriculture,
and on the nation in general, by diminishing the county rates.
Great good would also 6e done by placing them under a better
s!stem of management. Agriculture was greatly depressed,
and agriculture was not relieved ; but he must say this, that
he gave credit to the Right Hon. Baronet for such remissions
of taxation as those on raw materials, on cotton, and on glass.

But he did think that the Right Hon. Baronet weuhl'also
have turned an attentive ear to the remonstrances addressed to
him, he hoped in a proper form and a proper spirit—not by
Noble Lords or Members of that House, but by farmers, know-
ing and practically exercising the trade of agriculture. When
they stated their depression to him it could not be but all
the past feelings of the Right Honourable Baronet must
be touched.—(Laughter.) They have nothing but their
representa•iens, and the voices of their own Members in that
House, and he had hoped that the Right Hon. Baronet would
have been touched by their statements. But he was sorry to
say that their hopes had been dashed from them. Though
they contributed to the property-tax no less than 2,400,0001.,
out of an amount of 4,900,0901., yet no one single tax had
been touched from which they derived any immediate benefit.
The whole remission was given only to manufactures aid
commerce; by that agriculture would no doubt be
indirectly benefited, for he had always maintained that
no interest could be benefited without producing
an effect on all. But the only time the Right
Honourable Baronet the other night mentioned the agri-
cultural interest was when lie announced the remission of the
auction duty. But they were not asking him, as landlords,
for any reduction of taxation, as he believed it t‘a.s the land-
lords alone who would benefit by this remission, because when
agricultural produce was sold there was no tax upon it. It
was for the tenants he spoke; and from the letters he had
received, he could assure the Right Hon. Baronet there was a
general gloom in the counties around the metropolis, who of
course had had an opportunity of reading his powerful speech
the other nigh'. He could assure the Right Hon. Gentleman
that the greatest despair prevailed in these counties. They had
looked to him t) protect their rights and now their distresses
were passed over without vouchsafing a single farthing of
relief after imposing on them a tax of upwards of 2,000,0001.
All he could say was that agreeing as he generally did with
much that was said on both sides of the House—(Great
laughter)—he yet certainly could not sit down with that kind
of spirit which would tamely submit to everything a Minister
chose to dictate.—( Rear, hear.) Even if he steod alone he
would at a future period give the House and those county mem•
bers who had been returned by their consti-
tuents for asserting certain principles which he
hoped and trusted they would carry out—he would give them
at a future period the opportunity of stating whether in this
great remission of taxation the agricultural interest was or was
not to be benefited. Before he sat down he merely wished to
suggest to the Right Hen. Baronet that in imposing the in-
come-tax again he should give to the tenant-farmer a right of
appeal. At present they were taxed on half the amount of
their rent, but had no appeal against the charge, whether they
made any profit or not. Ha therefore washed them to have
that right of appeal allowed them. Agreeing on the whole
with the principle of a property-tax, he would sit down, hoping
that this measure would be greatly and generally beneficial,
yet at the same time expressing his belief that in bringing it
forward the agricultural interest had been perfectly overlooked.
Mr. V. SMITH thought the agricultural Members ought
to take a straightforward and decided course, and should -not
follow at the heels of any Minister. He believed the agricultural
condition was one of great distress, but they should have voted
for his Hon. Friend when he brought forward a motion for in-
quiring into the burdens which peculiarly affected agri-
culture. He admitted that there were some bur-
dens which peculiarly affected agriculture, in the shape
of local taxation, but Hon. Alembers opposite were
all silent regarding them, except the Hon. Gentleman who had
just sat down. Yet a most valuable paper had lain for two
years on the table of that House, descriptive of the extent to
which local taxation was carried on. He would not give to
agriculturists the same answer as they usually received when
they complained of their burdens,—to cultivate the land better,
for he thought they had very great reason to
reply that they could not cultivate the land without
capital. We were now about to saddle ourselves with a t
per-
manent property-tax, and it would be idle in him to rail against
it, for under the circumstances of the ease he feared it.wa
but too necessary. The Hon. Member fur Kendal
hehadglri given
reasons for the continuation of the income-tax, which
con-
fessed were to him wholly unintelligible. The Hon. Member
for Donegal had given reasons for its connottintaance, which were
have to pay it.—
perfectly intelligible, because he would not
peace of Ireland
(Hear, hear.) The prosperity ,
had been adverted to in the speech from frinom
language
a athrone,e o f
and had been since adverted.
pp ito ; and if such were the case,
triumph by
inele-tax should not be extended
he saw no peaH On wl eibetelices
here gave marks of dissent which
to Ireland.—(3lr.
caused general laughter in the House. )—He thought the Hon.
Baronet had, with his usual adroitness, barely alluded to the
450 articles in the tariff upon wl ia duties were reduced or
abolished ; but the House should recollect, that from these 450
articles the revenue lost 320,0001.—( Hear, hear.) He was
of opinion that the Right Hon. Gentleman should have, some
days prior to his statement, laid upon the table of the
House a list of those articles which he intended
to affect by the proposed measure. He could not refrain from
saying, that considering how many of the constituencies of
Hon. Members were affected by this diminution or abolition of
duty, the House had been rather taken by surprise.—( Hear,
hear.) At this late hour of the night he would not trouble
the House ,with any further observations.
Sir R. PEEL assured the Right Hon. Gentleman that to-
morrow or next day he would lay on the table of the House
papers which would specify the whole of the articles now included
in the tariff, and on which it was proposed to remove the duty.
He had stated generally that a remission of duty would take
plate in the raw materials of manufacture. Surely the Right
Hon. Gentleman did not expect him to go through the whole
450 articles? lie thought by so doing he would have wearied
the House, and the mention of many of the articles would