The Sun.
London, England, 1842-06-22 00:00:00

talked of consciencel and in many discussions, on religioesi
that House how many bigoted refusals es'ere there to do'
justice to others, because they differed in religious belief fretta
them. There was one ,advantage, at all events; they weileeell
agreed, theoretically, at least, as to morals; but here van
practical demonstration of the practical effeot of their
English system—their conscientious system, which left the
briber to get the value of his money from the bribed, The
effect of the Ballot would be to make men genemins, no,%elen
minded, huneene.—( Hear, hear.) The deteriorating effects'
the inesent s; stem were undeniable,. No one had attempte•
to deny the existence of bribery. Some had qualified it ; other •
might have exaggerated it, but all admitted the frighttul ex- •
tent to which it prevailed. He certainly should vete for the
motion of the Hon. Member for Sheffield.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the observations of the Right
Hon. Gentleman opposite, would not allow him to give a
silent vete on the motion of the Hon. Member for Sit, ifiestd.
With respect to that portion of them ishieh referred to what
had taken place relative to the Reform Bill, he del not know,
that the account he had to give, would differ materially from,
that given by the Right Hon. Gentleman. He (Lord J. Ms-,
sell) would allude oniy, therefore, to what had hem) his own.
expectiocs and i pinions on the subject. The late Lord Durham
s
jail(n,t;iiiti:ll:ly:f,e,sbii:::::;Gdt,Bollaei
21r;
'I hat eta smear lza:t1,(1,
.Got treef mo
asibi(otrnetedhbe,,
another
sthattoia,fiertntbvlreenrdielt
which to his (Lord J. Itu.siell'e)
mind, and to the mind of any one censersent ith the trans-
ether's of the period, bore the character of having beets
written or communicated by some men ber of Lord Grey's'
Government. Upon that occasion he (Lent J. Ruseteil)
tiniught it necessary to apply to his late itivjeety, King Wil-
liam ti.e Fourth, to allow hint, if he she'll! think it at any time
necessary to make a statement of ohat had occurred with
respect to the Reform Bill, so far as his (Lord J Russell's)
owe public character WAS concerned. tie had received hie
Itlajeety's greeious j eneiseion, and some time afterwards he Saud
made she statement to which his flight Jinn. Friend had alluded.
That statement referred, as the Right. Hun. • Gentlernati had
said, to the recommendations of the Committee to Lord Grey's
Cabinet. Those recommendations were a general outline, which
was to he considered by the. Cabinet before Icing finally adopted.
There were two points with regard to which the Committee
made recommeteiations nhich had not been adopted by the
Cabinet. They related to secret voting—( Hear, hear)—and
the iteration of Parliament. The votes which he bad given
precious to that occasion were in conformity and consistent with
the votes be had given since, namely, against the Ballot. lie
hat had an opinteu—not the opinion he now entertained after
the discussions which had taken platoo.and the various lights
in which the question had been put—but ho had had an cipission
partly gathered !rem his own refiectiuns, red partly trout the
speeches made on the subject by Ain Brice bale in this Henses
et Parliament, showing as he (Lord I. Russell) thrught, that
secret young would not he carried into effect. There were.
other reasons with regard to what he considered likely to le a
cons, quenee-- increase of briber)—which had made him total}
averse to the adoption of the plan. There were other 'reasons
in its favour ; and with respect to the whole sub-
ject lie then thought, as Lord Althorp afterwards
expre.sed, that it. would be desirable, if possible, to make the
Reform Bill, which was to be introdpeed, a final measure. It
seemed to him that by leaving those guts:ion% of secret voting
and duration of Parliament to be afterwards debated, the eel-
tleeit.nt of the subject would be effected better than it when-
wise could. Those were the reasons that lied operated on his
mind with reference to those questions. However, on mature
deliberation, the Cabinet had rejected those two points of the
scheme, arid he had willingly consented u. propose the Reform
Bill without those parts of the scheme being introduced. He
had on that occasion stated that there was• etoprovisiou for the
adoption of the Ballot no provision with respect
to the duration of Parliament -- that he himself
did not consider that those subjects were finally concluded, hot
that Government. if they should hereafter see teaser] to think
that that measure might be usefully adopted, would be at
liberty to recommend it. That was subetantislly the state-
ment which lie had made, differing as the Itight lion. Gentle-
man had shown from the statement afterwards ream: by Lord
Althorp, who considered, not at that moment, but.dur.'g the
subsequent discussion, that the enactment, of the liefornt gill
was a settlement of the whole question. He. Lad endeavetweed
to state carefully what was his own impreesiminon the subjeci,
what was the determination of the Government, and it would:
seem to him tie follow from that statement that eitime
with respect to himself or any Member of the
then Goyernment, they were at liberty to take any
objection which might seem to them a valid objec-
tion. With respect to the Ballot, the statements, that
lied been made that night on the subject, 'scented to have
this difficulty in them that they did not contain the whole of
the plan which the majority of those who were in favitor ef the
Ballot were disposed to support. Now, if they adopted the
Ballet, as the electoral body was now learned, with respect to
the smaller borough:, it was. probable time wholesale bribery
would be practised. He asked, then, it .the Ballot had evew
been found to produce wholesome and salutai)oeffects ill other
countries, was it likely to produce them in this ?—( Hear)
hear.) He said with his Hen. Friend, that he could imagine
nothing more contrary to the Luglish character. He could
well imagine that there were irgenious persons who bad
carried to • perfection the machinery el the I}al.oe-
box, that •they could place in a room a certeirr
contrivance which would prevent the passibility of any
one encovt ring fer whom a man gale his vote; but then
what machinery was there which would make an Englishinan—
an Eogiish farmer or an English tradesman—reserved, and
cunning, and secret, in all his transactions ?—( Hear, hear, from
the Ministerial benches.) Let them show him, it they oould,
by what contrivance the character of en Englishman would be
so clanged that his landlord would not be able to tell what were
his political opinions? Let them show him the contrivance by
which at no club, at no dinner, neither in the privacy of his
domestic line nor on any occasion of public excitement, he
should betray his seetitnetits, or that it should only be on this '
day of voting that he expressed his opinions, and on every other
day. they should be perfectly secret and perfectly concealed.
—(llear„ltear.) These things were centrised in the Senate o
Venice. • In the Senate of Venice there was a most ingenion
conttivance with respect to the election of the Doge. Seven
electeu forty-five, fifty-eye elected five, and five elected twenty-
three, arid through that contrivance it was said that election
were decided without bribery, without intimidation, and nith.
out ittfluence 0, any sort. y That might suit the cline and,
reserved character of the Venetian Senate—it did not suit the
character of tile English.--(Cheers from the Al inisteriel
Benches.) I3y means of such voting they might in tome eases
prevent infirnidatton and bribery, but the great, the gigantic,
evil vchieh they would introduce would far counterbalance all
the good which they would effect, arol the lots of the honeet
and brave English character would be a loss which rotting
hereafter could ever repair.—( Hear, hear.) He had now
stated the grounds upon which he had voted against the Ballot
on former occasions. "ikith respect to the change then pro-
posed, lie could not imagine that it was the only change ankh
its advocates recommended; he, therefore, asked to have :he
whole plan before he voted for any croirTe of that detterip-
tion. Taking the Ballot atomic, he doubted its excellency. He
knew of no country in which It had predueed those a 'minket
and beneficial effects as inch it was said it was interdict tospre-
duce. He thought, in itself, it was calculated to produce fraud
and concealment, and to injure the character of the people;
and therefore now, as on former occasions, between record his
vote against the motion.—( Cheers.)
Mr. M'A KLEY said he was very much surprised at the
cheers with which the Noble Lora had been receieted by
Hun. Members opposite. In 1831, the Noble Lord, in et:in-
junction with the Right Hon. Baronet, agreed in rem's-,
mending to Lord Grey's Government that the Ballot should
be onus of the measures taken into consideration and adopted.
He thought that showed how recklessly, thoughtlessly, or
dishonestly public men shaped their enurse with regard to
different measures which they submitted to. the Legislature.
le that case he did not believe that. the recommendation was
di-honestly made; but it was an ext mplification of the fact,
that measures affecting the right s and liberties of the people were
frequently brought fet ward by men holding most responsible
situations without due consideration. Now he was placed aide
respect to this question of the Ballot in a very disagreeable iv-
sition.—(lmughter.) In the speech of the Noble ford tieere
was but ore argument against the Ballot, namely, that if the
Ballot was applied to the present constituencies it would lead to
other changes, the most important of which would be an cm.
tension of the suffrage. Now his conviction . was directly the
reverse. The present constituencies had a monopoly of the
power of voting, the number who possessed the right to vote
being as one to seven. Did the House believe that if they were
to give to I he present electors the right of exercising the electoral
franchise iu secret, and free from the responsibility which the
opinion of the non-elector now threw upon him—eid they
believe that the electors would be willing to sham, their non
hower, by bringing in a greater number of voters ? —( Hear,
iear.) There was a great deal said about ioriependerit voting,
but he believed what they really wanted, was vowel- on their
own side of the question. The working classes nould'say, in
reference to this question, " if you are determined to adopt
the Radon give us first a share in the ?erne, and don't place
us at the mercy of torn who are utinuni ful of the iutereets
of their country." Consequently, although he should vote for
the written— ( Laughter )_notwithstanding all be had said against
it—(Loud laughter)—he concluded simply with this remark,
that if the House should carry the motion, and if a Bill should
be introduced fur carrying it into effect, if he could not envereed
in connecting with this motion an extension of the suffrage, no
person would give to it a more hearty, a more consistent, or
more determined opposition than himself.—( Hear.)
Lord WORSLEY supported the motion. His belief was.
that notwithstanding all the arguments which he had heard that
night against the Ballot, there were abuses in the prefect
system which could not be remedied by any other measure.
He thought the people would not poesees the fall benefit of
the Reform Bill until the Ballot had been established.
Mr. WA VD rose amidst loud cries of "Divide," and said
that in the then state of the House he should comptess thy kse
remarks he had to make into as few words as possible. Ho
rose with peculiar satisfaction,staattien
lmctlsoseupoofna
11,ohnig,thdie,bealtet.;teto.4
find that hardly arty of the ten
his case had been contradicted. In fact all his allegations
were admitted—nobody disputed them, for all at•knowledgod
that bribery anti corruption prevailed to a great extents 'lb*
lion. Member for Pontefract absolutely gave him hopes of hie
being a convert to the measure. lie (Olr, Ward) had ritern
as the advocate of the Ballot,believing that ihey could sup; Tess
bribery by law, and that they could not touch intimidation.
The Noble Lord said that the Ballot was not sufficient. Oue
half of those who looked to the question that night did not at-
tacit any finality; on the contrary, he did runt believe the
Ballot alone would he the means of a perfectly free repreeeuta-
tiers of this country ; but he said that it was the 'must bene-
ficial and practical change the circumstances of the
country would admit.—( Hear, hear.). Nothing would
more contribute to put an end to • that practice
which they all seemed to deplore. The Noble Lord objected
to it on the ground that it would lead to further organic
change. Now, the Noble Lord had to contend with that are*
meat when he introduced the Reform Hear, hear.)
The Noble Lord also referred to Rote, and said that
the Ballot existed there when corruption . vs-as at its
highest. lie (Mr. Ward) did not think the
people believed that the Ballot wouiltdee in
state of morality amongst
believed that it would check intimidation and bribery. The
Noble Lord also referred to France, but a Fremih writer had
eonetncitersc'd, introduce
higherthoy
lay
r•lnte
r stated that
wt
rfdelattsh,:d..eiriet lately slid that their great security
was
abuli:lould he
lee: :tit?
tt, hiei:sot
bwep,ihri ii•stilfde gu theet
},atGeodobviireeir:fLt
( Cries of " Divide, divide.") lienic,Totuilei nsoutbdieetcattafotlriwe
aHrzaset.ut
he bad
he should leave it in the hands of the House. .
The House then divided—
For the motion.. 4•••••••• 157
Againstit... ..................................... 290
Majority against the mot ion ......
CHSTO.‘IS BILL.
The House then omit it-to Committee on the Customs Mlle
and certain verbal amendments were made. •' -
The House then resumed, and the Bill Was .ordered to be
primed.— It, port on Thursday next,
ELECTION PROCEEDINGS. • r
On the motion of Mr. ROEBUCK, Mr. WO.ltiilei
6nd Sir
W. Ileatheute were discharged from further atter:ditto* on the
Election Proceedings Committee ; and Mr. Wilson Patten and
Mr. Eliot Yorke. were added to it. •
'MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS (IRELAND).
Lord ELIOT moved for leave to bring in a Il to amend
the &I and 4th of her present Majesty, intituled, 4` An Act for
the Regulation of Municipal Corporations in Ireland." The
Nchle Lord explained that the object cf the Bill was to remedy
gone informalities that had occurred in munloinal elentoiMs in
Ireland.

Me ?notion was agreed to, fbi Bit) viar sibMoF4ttiv read a