The Sun.
London, England, 1845-05-27 00:00:00

ABERDEEN RAILWAY

will be proceeded with.

Group L.

GUILDFORD, CHICHESTER, AND PORTSMOUTH
RAILWAY.

The Committee resumed this morning, when the Duke of Rich-
mond appeared, and stated that there was, to his knowledge, a
great communication between Chichester and Portsmouth, between
Midhurst and Petworth and Chichester, and indeed the intercom.
munication between the several places there was considerable.
There were about 3,000 acres of beech timber in Charlton
and Leighton Forests, and this timber was partially
unsaleable, in consequence of the deficiency of the means
of carriage to the coast. The district was also rich as
an agricultural district, but an impediment had arisen from the Vine
cause, and he thought the proposed line was the best for West
Sussex. Since the memorial which his Grace had transmitted to

the Beard of Trade, there had been meetings at Goodwood, in
which a great desire had been manifested by the South-Western
Company to meet the wishes of the landowners, and a deviation

line had been devised which met all their views. Pro-
posals at that meeting had been made by the South_
Western Company to the Brighton and Shoreham Company,
which he thought both liberal and equitable, but these proposals
bad been rejected by the Brighton and Shoreham Company. Yet,
he still thought that the coast-line, as devised by the Brighton
Company, was of the utmost importance, not only as opening the
Southampton market to West Sussex, but also in a national point
of view. But his opinion had altered as respects the Shoreham
Company ever since the proposals of the South-Western Company
and the county would be more benefited by the South-Western than
by the Shoreham line, and the feeling now was so great in
the country far railways that he thought they must be made, and
so deep was this impression on his own mind, that he had offered
to the South-Western Company to pass through his park, provided
he neither saw nor heard the trains, notwithstanding he, as a
landowner, was in some respects opposed to railways. One of
these offers was to take a certain sum of money and retire from

the field ; another to amalgamate, and the third to adopt a union of

interests in two lines. There was an agreement between the Brighton
and London Companies and the Shoreham and Chichester Com-
pany to rent the line of the latter Company to the former for ten
years, but the proposal was for the amalgamation of the lines to
commence at the end of ten years, unless the Brighton Company
should allow it to commence at once, the line being leased to the
South-Western Company at 4 per cent, in perpetuity. A coun.
ter proposition had been made by the Shoreham Company, which
was rejected, after much discussion, by the South-Western
Company; and Lord Wharncliffe, to whom the matter had
been referred, had expressed his opinion that the Shore.
ham Company ought to have taken the proffer which had been
made to them. Lord Egmont was still an opponent of the South-
Western line, as was also Mrs. Dorien, though he believed that
Colonel Wyndham was not. He (the Duke of Richmond) should
certainly not vote on any railway which passed through his pro-
perty, and he had only spoken at this meeting as a landowner.
The latter part of this evidence was given to the cross-examina-
tion of Mr. Whateley, to which his Grace further reiterated his
impression that the coast line was of great national importance.

To the cross-examinatien of Mr. Sergeant TALFOURD, the Duke
stated that there was a very strong feeling in West Sussex in
favour of the Chichester line; and he thought it best for the line
to pass through the route proposed by the South-Western Com.
pany, provided the rights of private property were not materially
affected, The memorial of which so much had been said,
had been drawn up by the Chichester and Shoreham
Company, and its terms had not been very nicely ex-
amined. The only name signed before his Grace's was that of
the Duke of Norfolk, and part of the object of thpt memorial
had been to per tect the property of the Duke of Norfolk. He did
not quite approve of the monopoly which threw several lines under
one company ; but as the Shoreham Company had leased their
line for ten years to the London and Brighton Company, he
thought that just as much a monopoly as the other line. As long
as the lines were perfectly independent of each other they would
certainly be a check upon each other, yet he saw no course which
would prevent one line from purchasing shares In the other, or
otherwise obtaining an influence in the proceedings of the other
company.

To the inquiries of Mr. RAWLINSON, his Grace replied, that to
effect a communication with Woolwich, Chatham, and Sheerness,
he thought that the South-Western Company would be as con-
venient as that of any other line. With respect to timber,
both Lord Egmont and Colonel Wyndham sold a considerable
quantity of timber every year, but he was not aware that there-was
a canal near their properties to carry it to the coast. It was ne-
cessary to know this, because a considerable portion of this timber
was used at Portsmouth for Government purposes.
To an inquiry from the CHAIRMAM, his Grace stated that there
decidedly was a feeling for this line, and it was his impression
that all landed property was improved by a railroad passing through

it, and though his own opinion was not altered from what it was
originally, still he waived his objection partly in deference to
the feelings and opinions of those in his neighbourhood. As
these parties thought that there would be greater convenience
from it, they would undoubtedly use this railway more than they
had at first anticipated, and several memorials had been sent to his
Grace by parties who had signed the original memorial to the
Board of Trade, expressive of sentiments quite opposite to those
stated in that memorial, and requesting him to withdraw his op.
position to the Gulidford Extension line.

Mr. Horne was re.calted and cross-examined by Mr. ALEXANDER,
and stated that he had never taken any traffic before to ascertain
the probable returns for a railway scheme; but he had taken his
data from the Stamp.office, and had included in his inquiries both
Arundel and Bognor, and with those towns he had included
coaches from Bognor to Shoreham and Chichestor to Shoreham.
He had taken Petersfield, Lipprock, Haslemere, Guildford,
and Woking, but not Farnham, nor Alton, Letherhead, or Epsom.
He had taken in a Southampton and Brighton coach, and a Mid.
hurst and Brighton coach. He conceived that the passengers
would go by rail to Chichester and thence to Brighton. To the
Midhurst coach he had assessed six passengers to each journey.
He had taken his data on about 25 coaches, and he found that there
would be 82,680 passengers annually. He could not tell the
number of journeys, but he could give the number of passengers
by each coach ; the result was the aggregate we have just given.

He had got his data both from the Stamp-office as well as from
inquiries at the several coach.offices. He had put down
13,104 passengers for carriers' vans—one of these vans
a van to Woking from Chichester, the distance being 364 miles!
from Chichester to Shoreham it was 23 miles, being a difference of
13 miles. The number of passengers by Jenman's van to Woking
was three passengers on an average per journey, four journeys per
week. There were vans also between Chichester, Midhurst, and
Petworth, and also between Chichester and Midhurst, which car-
ried on an average 48 passengers per week. Harding, Standing,
and Clarke's vans, from Petworth to London, went all the way by
road. Petworth was about 14 miles from Godalming. Most of these
inquiries had been made about six weeks ago. Harding, Stand-
ing, and Clarke were three distinct persons—not a
firm—and they carried 84 passengers per week, and
for all these conveyances he put down 13,104 passen-
gers. The next was for posting passengers. ,The number of
passengers from Portsmouth would travel on an average 96 miles,
and the whole mileage would be 4,958 per week. By inquiries, he
had ascertained from Mr. Ballard, who kept the principal inn at
Chichester, that the cross-journeys through the country were ten
Per diem. The passengers by this means were 9,624, and the
total mileage was 224,700 per week. The nearest way from Bath
to Brighton would be by the new line, but he reckoned his
eeast posting
w oluond only to
emt ofitlFeemsa: epahnaadrme
h,c andcarrying
ytiehnegc
hfioe calculateduhre;ptear...
et
nhTga
eht
retshdooi
distance
gnalientagrvaert
average,
gl theeed
being sl
making a total mileage of 12,095 miles. From Portsmouth, by
Peterafield, Guildford, and London, h ecalculated 100 journeys,
making 400 passengers a year. From Bognor and
upwards
dArundel 0
()hoe
calculated 800 passengers a year. There
commercial travellers, and a total of 21,15710 e
passing through
passengers. His
whichomthewneurme
belrsoofwhee personseal ee n
thakorsesel n e a and
data were derivedrelll from
ate,
rd for-
proceeded o n
by gigs; and in his calculationa he ad kly
fourth of the number of passengers as using tlysei
five miles. He had then taken the next gate, and
the same manner. He had made no calculation of the traffic forin
Dorking, and had never been there, but from the inquiries he had
made he had learned that there were 21,157 passengers in the dis-
t ict travelling Ave miles each. He had obtained his number of

602,170 rassengers from Nine Elms for the books of the South
Western Company, which stated the number of passengers to
Gosport. On this number he had 25 per cent., which he thought
was a very moderate increase. He could not state the money
taken, but the number of passengers by all the trains
was 60,270, and he had no doubt that the sum
stated by Mr. Stovin as being received from this
traffic was 44,2744 in the year. In this calculation he only gave
25 per cent., which was lower than the average on the Brighton
and Dover lines. The goods carried from and to Gosport amounted
6,444 tons during the year 1844. The coals, he calculated, would
be about 18,250 tons, and these came from Hemsworth and Chi-
chester at 11/2d. per mile, those from Chichester going a distance of
23 % miles to Godalming. He thought that this communication
would be cheaper than that by the Avon Canal, which charged
five farthings for the carriage of a ton of coals.
- To the cross-examination of Mr. WADDINGTON, Mr Horne stated
that he conceived that the whole of the passengers to Gosport
wculd be abstracted from the old line to the new line, and on that
he put 25 per cent. ; but with respect to goods he could say
nothing. He had taken the whole of the traffic from Bognor, but
none of that from Littlehampton ; and he expected that the coast
traffic would be good, but not the most productive on the line.
To the cross-examination of Mr. noon, Mr. Horne stated that
he believed there would be but one station, Petworth and Midhurst ;
but that would depend upon circurn-Aances.
To the re-examination of Mr. GURNEY, the witness stated that
the distance from Petworth to Horsham was eiOiteen miles.
Mr. Wm. Tite, the architect and surveyor, stated that he had
considerable experience in the purchaseand saleof property, and he
had been employed with Mr. Osborne to survey and value the land
required for the railway. It had been agreed upon between them
that the quantity of land required for the railway was 575 IA acres,
worth 114,0001., including an allowance of 10,0001. for contin-
gencies. He was acquainted with the extension line of the South-
Western:Compan y, it wJuld give great:facilities atHungerford-bridge
for water communication, as well as prove a great convenience to
the proposed railway. The terminus there was intended to occupy
ten acres, and the expense of forming that branch would be
420,0001. for lard and 380,0001. for works and contingencies, mak-
ing 800,000/. for the whole expense.

To the cross-examination of Mr. Rawlinson, Mr. Tite stated
that the land from Guildford was good inclosed land, and some of
it excellent wheat land. In Portsea they took 14 acres, but to the
inquiry how much the witness calculated as the price for the land
at Portsea per acre--

Mr. Sergeant WRANGHAM, who apraced for the promoters, ob-
jected, and it was overruled by the Committee. He knew nothing
of the place where the stations were to be placed, end the quanti-
ties of land, as was usual in these cases, had been given to him by
the engineer.
Mr. Sergeant WRANGHAM, at this stage of the proceedings,
stated that they had now brought the evidence, with the exception
of that on engineering p6ints, to a close, and he therefore suggested
the adjournment of the Committee.
After an inquiry from Mr. M. MILNES as to the time this cvi.
dence was likely to occupy, the adjournment was agreed to till
Thursday at one o'clock.

Group W.

WAKEFIELD, PONTEFRACT, AND GOOLE RAILWAY.
The Committee on this line reassembled to-day at twelve o'clock.

Mr. Pakington in the chair.
Mr. KINGLAKE stated that, before the examination of witnesses
was proceeded with, he had to complain that the sections and plans,
which Mr. Hardy had engaged should be furnished to him, were
not delivered.
The CHAIRMAN said he considered that if that had not been done
fair play was not given to the promoters of the Bill.
Mr. Hardy said that he had given instructions to have the
sections and plans sent to the solicitor of the promoters, and he
was not aware, till he heard the complaint this morning, that this
had not been done. He had no intention of withholding any plan
or section.

It appeared that there was a misunderstanding on the part of
Mr. Birkenshaw, the engineer for the alternative line, as to the
documents which Mr. Hardy engaged should be delivered. He
did not consider that the section as to which the complaint was
now made was one of the documents which he should have delivered.
The section was then handed to the engineers of the propose line.
The adjourned examination of

Mr. Birkenshaw, the engineer of the alternative line, was then
proceeded with. He did not think that the line from Goole to
Wakefield was one which the public necessity required. A better
►ine might be formed joining to the Normanton station.
Cross-examined by Mr. KINGLAKE—Took the levels of the
alternative line on Friday last. He did so when the objection to
the Normanton station was first raised.

Mr. John Leather, civil engineer, examined by Mr. HARDY—
Had considerable experience in laying down railways, but not so
much as in other works. Was well acquainted with the country
through which the proposed Wakefield, Pontefract, and Goole Rail-
way was to pass. Knew that part of it between Wakefield and
Pontefract. Thought that a better line could be got. Had seen
Mr. Birkenshaw's plans and sections of the alternative line.
Thought from his general acquaintance with the country, that a line
could be easily made without going to Normanton station.

Cross-examined by Mr. KINGLAKE—Had not gone over the
ground of the alternative line proposed by Mr. Birkenshaw, but
examined the plans and sections of it. Was engineer of the
Goole and Doncaster line. Was not aware that the Proprietors of
that line had any desire to shut out the proposed line. Saw the
sections of Mr. Birkenshaw's alternative line yesterday for the
first time. Believed that surveyors were sent down on Friday
last to make the levels of that line in consequence of the evidence
which had been given in that Committee relative to the inconve-
niences and delays which took place at the Normanton station.
Mr. Gouch, civil engineer, examined by Mr. HARDY, stated that
Le had been employed as resident engineer for 36 miles on the
London and Birmingham line ; lad constructed the Manchester
and Leeds line, and was since engaged on the Liverpool and Man-
chester line, Had had considerable experience in railway matters.
Heard Mr. Leather's evidence, and quite concurred with him on
the superiority of the alternative line to the proposed Wakefield,
Pontefract, and Goole line.
This witness was cross-examined by Mr. KINGLAKE at consi-
derable length to show that the alternative line was not so good,
either in gradients or in facilities for public accommodation.
Mr. Smith's case here closed, and witnesses were then called to
reLut his opposition.

Robert Buchanan, Esq., was then examined by Mr. WILKINS
Resided at Pontefract. Was a magistrate of the West Riding of
Yorkshire ; was chairman of the proposed line. Accompanied an
engineer to see the chief tbfficulties and features of the localities
of the line. When he heard of Mr. Smith's complaints, he went
himself to visit Mr. Smith's house and property, where the alleged
injuries would be sustained. There was a common close by Mr.
Smith's house, and there were also stone-quarries. There was also
a canal, on which there was a great deal of traffic and
a high road, and also a blacksmith's shop. The embankment on
the line opposite Mr. Smith's house would not, in his opinion,
materially interfere with the view from the house, but as Chair
man of the Company he had to state, on the part of
the Company, that there was every wish to obviate
any inconvenience Mr. Smith might sustain, or even to
compensate him for any loss he would suffer by the proposed line
passing through his property. He made a proposal to Mr. Smith
to submit the whole case betwemn him and the Company to arbi-
tration. (The witness was then proceeding to reply to Mr. Wil.
kins, to state some further particulars relative to the
negotiations that had taken place between Mr. Marsden,
Mr. Smith's solicitor, and himself, but Mr. Hardy objected to this
on the ground of the communications being private.)
Cross-examined by Mr. HARDY—None of the objects which he
had described were to be seen from Mr. Smith's house, neither the
blacksmith's shop, nor the canal, &c. He did not know,
but thought that the front windows of Mr. Smith's house could be
seen from the bridge over Barnsley Canal. The embankment ran
close by this canal.

Mr. Martin examined by Mr. KINGLAKE—Was an engineer
and surveyor. Surveyed the Leeds and York line. The embank-
ment on the proposed line could be only seen by slight
glimpses through the trees from Mr. Smith's house.
He explored the country not only on the line as it was at present
projected, but in several other places. He did not do this in con.
sequence of Mr. Smith's objection to the line as projected. The
railway passed at a distance of five-eighths of a mile from Mr.
Smith's house. That was the nearest point from -which it
could be seen. Was perfectly confident that Sir Edward Dodsworth
would sustain far more injury by Mr. Birkenshaw's alternative line
than Mr.: Smith would by the proposed line, as it would pass
close by his house and preserves. He had no doubt but Sir
Edward would give such a line the most determined opposition.
The stations of the two proposed lines were more commodious for
the public on the Wakefield, Pontefract, and Goole line than upon
the other suggested line.
Mr. Hawkshaw examined by Mr. KINGLAKE—Laid out the
northern portion of the London and York Railway. Had the ad-
vantage of all the sections that had been made by that Company.
He considered that the advantage of the junction of several rail..
ways at such an important place as Wakefield would far more
than compensate for the greater facilities which the gradients
might afford were the line laid down in a more favourable part of
the country.
It being now four o'clock, the Committee adjourned till Thurs-
day, at twelve o'clock.

Group FF.
NORTH OF SCOTLAND DISTRICT.
The Select Committee on this group re-assembled at the usual
hour this morning, and proceeded with the affirmative evidence in
the case for the promoters of the
EDINBURGH AND NORTHERN LINE,
A scheme got up with a view of supplying the northern districts
of Scotland with a general system of railway communication.
Mr. Wiseman, one of the Board of Directors, who gave evidence
yesterday, in support of the Bill, was cross-examined by Mr.
AYTON, on behalf of several landholders, whose property would
be disfigured or interfered with by the progress of the line, with a
view of showing that, if the Bill were delayed till next session, the
scheme could be rendered more complete in itself, and take
such a course as to remove the chief objections of the landed
proprietors residing in the various districts through which the
line must necessarily pass, in the event of Parliament ultimately
sanctioning the scheme. The witness admitted that the promoters
would have to come to Parliament next session for a supplemental
Bill to extend and improve the line, but, nevertheless, he thought

it advisable that one part of the line should be constructed befcre
another. He denied that the main line would avoid the coal-
fields of Fifeshire, but admitted that the Company might be ha-
rassed by the proprietor of the Burnt Island and Granton Ferry, at
present in the possession of the Duke of Buccleuch; unless they
bound the Duke down to certain conditions by stringent clauses.
The Duke, however, was a large shareholder in the Company, and
of course it would be to his interest to accommodate instead of
embarrass the Company. He conceded to the Learned Counsel
that the present coach fairs between Cooper and Dunfernline were
exceedingly low, but at the same time he insisted upon the prin-
ciple that a railway invariably doubled the passage traffic of the
district through which it passed, and it was always to the interest
of the Company to reduce as much as possible the former rates of
carriage.

On re-examination, he said the Burnt Island Ferry was the most
available point on the coast for terminating one part of
the line, but there were others which would be equally as conve-
nient, should the Ferry Company refuse to run ferry-boats eor-
responding with the trains on the railway. The interest however
of the Ferry Company was identical with that of the Railway
Company; but were it not, the Ferry-pier Bill contained a clause
for the protection of any future railway.
Mr. Peter Cameron, a carrier at Edinburgh, who had esta-
blishments at all the principal towns of Scotland, was well ac-
quainted with the traffic passing through Fifeshire. His establishment
carried upwards of 8,040 tons of goods annually along the route of
the proposed railway, and another firm that he was acquainted with
carried from 30 to 40 tons weekly. At present the traffic was con-
veyed by carts, and if a railway were made it would prove a saving
of nearly 50 per cent. to the towns of Perth and Dundee alone,
as well as tend generally to the advantage of the trade of the other
districts through which the line passed. He was a farmer as well
as a currier, and knew of his own knowledge that Fifeshire ex-
ported great quantities of grain. It was at present conveyed by
carts and such conveyances, but if a railway were made through
Fife, he had no doubt large quantities of farm-produce would pass
over the line. There was only one stock market in Fifeshire, but
if the present line were made, it would, no doubt, lead to
the establishment of a market at Cooper. The firm
to which he belonged preferred carrying their goods
across Burntialand Ferry to Queen's Ferry, because they received
more accommodation at the one than the other.. If the rails were
brought down to the pier, he had no doubt the carriages could be
transferred to the steam-boats without injuring goods—indeed at
present all the loaded carts on the route were bodily carried over
the river. If there were a railway to Perth he did not
think any passengers or goods would go to that town
via Dundee. The line, in fact, would have the effect of diverting
all the traffic that was at present transmitted by water to Perth ;
and in his opinion it would be the best paying line running north of
Edinburgh.

It being near four o'clock the Committee adjourned, in accord-
ance with an arrangement made yesterday, till Thursday at twelve.

Group E.
NEWCASTLE AND BERWICK.
The Committee, on sitting this morning, proceeded with the