The Sun.
London, England, 1845-06-05 00:00:00

TUE SUN, LONDON, THURSDA MORNINC4, J-UNE 5 1845.

and he thought that tliat was the best way of bringing the
people of that country back to a sense of their duty as members
of an empire of which they formed a part. Nothing for this
could be effected except by cormiliiticn, and he should, there-
fore, vote for the Bill as part of a gi-eat experiment for giving
contentment to the people of Ireland, without any danger to the
estabii bed institution; of the eountrv.
The Earl of II RD WICK E said that he wished to explain
himself on a point to his Noble Friend who hail just sat (1,-.wn,
which seemed to give him much ai,xiety. The suppesiti n
which the Noble Duke entertained that he wished to appro-
priate the revenues of the Irish Church to the support of the
Roman Catholic clergy was erroneous. What he had said was,
that if the Roman Catholic Church was to be endowed he did
not know where the endowment was to come from, as it could
not come out of the Consolidated Fund. He hod further as-
serted, that if there was, as wa3 asserted, a church without a
congregation, without a soul to go into it, nor any probability
of there being any, that the endowment of that church might,
with safety and wisdom, be taken from the Protestant Church,
and applied to the support of the ministers of the Roman Ca-
tholic faith. He had yet another point to touch upon, and in
that case he should give a very short answer to a very long re-
mark. For his opinions he was solely and entirely responsible.
That was the answer to his Noble Fciend.
Earl SPENCER sad he wished to say a felt; words on this
question, not. because he could so far flatter himself that any

religion thaethg sovereign of the State was bound to protect
and support, and, further, the prerogative of royalty would be
annulled by the superintendence and coittrol, which of right
belonged to it, being surreneered into the babes of Catholic
priests, and finally to a foreign power. He did not believe that
the present Bill would establish er promote airy improvement
in the social cendition of the country for which it was intended,
and the policy that instigated such a measure was, in his opi-
nion, indefensible and ineffably bad. He would not enter into
any discussion on the heavy charges that had been brought
against the College of Maynooth. Several Noble Lords, during
last night's debate, had borne testimony to the erroneous nature
of the doctrines 'disseminated there, and the Noble and Learned
Lord who had concluded the debate had confirmed the whole
case by his lucid and incontrovertible arguments. During a
long series of years no effort had been made to obtain an in-
creased support for the institution at Maynooth. Nothing
had been said during that interval, and the inference to be
drawn from the silence would be that it was not necessary to
squander so large a sum of the public money in propagating
Catholicism, as was contemplated by the present proposed
measure. Comm'ssioners had been appointed to investigate
generally into the condition of education in Ireland, and they
had reported very voluminously as to the present state of the
educational regimen at Maynooth. Evidence had been brought
before the House, but it would consume a vast deal of time to
consider singly the papers in which that evidence was con-
taioed. It might, perhaps, be an interesting inquiry to make,
but in the absence of that evidence he would briefly refer to the
statements of a late celebrated Lord Chancellor, who, in his
official capacity as one of the visitors of Maynooth, had said
that the young men there were brought up in a condition more
servile and more degrading than at any college of the Jesuits ;
and that it was impossible n to notice the countenances of
these young men, whose eyes were continually east down to the
ground, and whose whole demeanor showed they were discip-
lined to submit to the power of despots. Such was the testimony
of a most respectable witness as to the condition of things at May-
riooth, but perhaps the principal question to be considered was,
whether the proposed measure would be generally beneficial to
the interests of Ireland. All that hail been heard and pub-
lished of the conspiracies, murders, and outrages of every de-
scription in Ireland had been the result of misgovernment.
The true character of the Irish people was excellent. There
were none who were naturally more attached to the sovereign
authority or more grateful for benefits received. And, on the
contrary, there were no people who possessed so keen a sense of
injustice and oppression, and, above all, there existed no people
who had a more profound contempt for inconsistency, whether
it was of a political tendency or of a relieious nature. Ireland
had been for too long a period subjected to be governed by the
miserable resort of expediency—(Hear, hear)—and a wretched
expedient was now contemplated in the proposed endowment, by
making a weak concession to the priests, in order to gain their
support in conciliating Ireland. The only true system, which
was the Sctiptural education scheme, had been thrown aside
as ineffectual and was lest, and tha domination of the priests,
which had been tacitly allowed by the late Government. was
openly encouraged by the present Administration.—( Hear.)
The Bequests Bill had not produced a contrary spirit in the
country. They were still true to their Spiritual Lord, the
Pope, to whom they had sworn to be faithful; and nothing
would induce them to sell their support of that principle on
behalf of any other authority. This feeling was borne out by
the whole history of Ireland. and it was a feeling which the
Government could not but respect. No doubt there was a
great difference in the state of Ireland now, compared with
what it was before Sir Robert Peel took office, and for what
he had done he considered him entitled to the confidence of
the country. If, however, he forced the establishment of this
institution of Maynooth on the country, it 'could scatter that
confidence to tha winds. Before that Right Hon. Baronet
took office, Ireland was agitated in a serious manner, but on
his accession to office, a state of comparative tranquillity was
induced, arising, for the time, from the high constitutional feel
ings which were aroused in the country by that event. But
that state of tiaequillity did not last long. Under the guidance
of the able repeal agitator of that country, the people were
brought into a state of unexampled excitement for the repeal
of the union. While this was going forward, the Goverrment
was looking on with mute astonishment, witnessing the whole
population of Ireland brought together to monster meetings, in
tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands. The excitement
showed the people of that country ready to follow one man
wherever he chose to lead them, and then only restrained
from acts of bloodshed, and actual rebellion, by that
man, who exercised over them such unbounded control.
At length the country was filled with troops, and the meeting
at Clontarf was put down; then it was to be said to the repeal
leaders was due the credit that no collision between the sol-
diers and the people did take place. In his (Lord Clancarty's)
opinion if at first. a vigorous effort had been made by the Go-
vernment to put down these proceedings it would have been
successful, but ;the attempt was made too late. The people
had become organised, they had learned to despise the Govern-
ment, and had active and intelligent leaders to guide them.
Then followed the prosecution of the leaders, and that course
was a failure—it did not serve the purpose of a vindication of
the law of England.—( Hear.) Instead of this, it weakened
respect for the law, and caused the people of that country to
lose all respect for the judges of Ireland,
The Duke of WELLINGTON—My Lords, in debating this
subject, I beg leave to submit that the question is a Bill for the
establishment of a college at Maynooth. I do not know that
the monster meetings, or the conduct of the Government in re-
gard to those meetings, bears any relation to the question. I
submit that the Noble Lord should attend to the question, and
not refer to the Government respecting that which might be a
proper subject of discussion at another time ; but is not at pre-
sent. The subject now is Maynooth.—(Hear.)
Lord CLANC,A RTY said he did not consider lie was leaving
the question by referring to the monster meetings, and could
net bow to the opinion of the Noble Duke. He referred to
the monster meetings, to show that if no respect had been
shown to the law of England, great submission at least
had been shown to another authority—that that
deference which was not tendered to the Crown, was
not withheld from the leaders of the Roman Catholic popula-
tion. Toough the authority of the Government was so weak
in Ireland, the power of the Pope was well known. Their
Lordships would recollect that what he referred to was this
submission of the people of Ireland to the Pope's rescript, at a
time when the law failed to work out a similar submission-
After the receipt of that document, a consultation of the
bishops of Ireland was held in Dublin, and the result was an
agreement to the principle of this endowment to Maynooth. A
strong feeling hail been expressed by the Protestants of Ire-
land that the present Government was unable to govern that
country, and he had stated these matters in order that their
Lerilships might understand the true bearings of the question.
Two years ago, ween a measure was proposed to eduitate the
poor factory children in the principles of the Church
of Englanit, a feeling was raised against it, arid it was Allan-
d-ned ; but n w, while the voice of Protestant England and
Protestant Scotland w .s unanimously raised against this esi
dewment, it was altogether disregarded.—( Hear, hear.) He
admitted that hewing measures—measures of improvement—
were necessary for Ireland, but they should be such as would
tend to social improvement. But of all the measures origi-
nated within the walls of the English Parliament, that now
before their Lordships to endow the College of Maynooth, and
to recognise the Papal authority, was the last that should have
been expected from an English Parliament, a Protestant Go-
vernment, and a British Sovereign.—( Hear, hear. )
The Duke of CLEVELAND said he was anxious to occupy
a short time in the discussion, not so much to occupy their
time in the consideration of the measure before them, as to
vindicate his own consistency, inasmuch as he differed on this
question with many of those with whom he usually acted. In
supporting this Bill, which he conceived it was his duty to do,
he was only pursuing that policy he had taken as his guide
ever since his entrance into public life. The debate had
hitherto been taken on religious grounds. Now he under-
stood from the Noble Duke who introduced the measure, that
it was more of a political than a religious subject. In that
view he (the Duke of Cleveland) wished to consider it. He
supported the measure for the relief of the Roman Catholics in
18.25, when it was introduced, and supported it up to its
being finally carried in 18.9. He had been a regular sup-
porter of that principle from the time he entered the House of
Commons in 1812, until it was brought to a happy termination
under the auspices of the Noble Duke (the Duke of Welling-
ton) arid Mr. Secretary Peel. For 17 years he acted with
the Whig party, and supported every measure brought forward
by them, with the exception of that of Parliamentary Reform.
which he had always opposed. Since then, he
had supported the Conservative party. His motto was
now, as it had always been, " measures not men. "
He could not see that any new principle was involved in this
additional grant. It was true that the arguments which had
been adduced laid great. stress on this being an annual grant.
But if they wsre to take the circumstances wider which the grant
was made, the number of years which it had been allowed, he
would ask them whether they could suppose that it was ever
likely to be withdrawn ? Could they suppose that they could
ever retrace their steps? Whatever might he the case, they
might advance, but they could never retrograde; to retrograde
now was an utter impossibility. He did not think, therefore,
that there was anything wrong in giving his consent to this
grant, or any real distinction between a grant which was sure
to be made annually and one which rendered that grant perma-
nent. With respect to ulterior measures he would not look at
hem at the present moment. There were persons who took
a much more comprehensive view of the question than he did,
and who conceived that this was only a prelude to other mea-
sures, He knew not that such would be the case, but he felt
that he could only look at the measure before their Lordships
as a measure isolated—as one without any consequence. It
was in that way that he must consider it. He could not take
it in connexion with any measure in the back ground. If it
were so connected, and if were so put forward as a feeler to ascer-
tain the state of public opinion, and with a view to introduce
measures of an ulterior consequence, though of a similar kind,
it was a most complete failure. if they at all doubted that,
let them look to the petitions which daily crowded their table.
Those petitions were countless, and emanated not from any dis-
tant or obscure corner of the country, but they had poured in by
thousands from every district, and from every town, from 11-achy
Head to John o' Groats. They might disregard public opinion
now, as in some instances it had been disregarded, but they
might carry the principle too far, they might push it to an
extent which was not quite safe, and, in this instance, it had
been expressed with too much loudness and fervour not to be
heard. In the advocacy of this measure, however, he had
heard some sentiments expressed which he knew not how to
comprehend. When he first heard those opinions stated he
knew not rightly how to believe his senses. They had been
expressed by a Noble Lord a member of the Government, and
who held a position in her Majesty's household. He knew
not whether that Noble Lord (the Earl of Hardwicke) had held
any conference with the chief officers of the Government, but
it did seem strange that that Noble Lord had stated that
if the Roman Catholic Church was to be endowed the
endowment should not come from the consolidated fund,
but from the resources of the Protestant Church in
Ireland. Ile (the Duke of Cleveland) knew not that
such a project was in contemplation, but if it were so he
trusted he should never live to see it. It was not for him to
solve the difficulty, but it did seem extraordinary that one
whom he had always looked upon as a Conservative, who was a
Member of her Maje ty's Household, who had been appointed
a Lord of the Bedchamber by the Government, and who might
be supposed to know what the intentions of the Government
were, should have held such opinions. There might have been
a change in the views of the Cabinet, and of the policy which
they intended to pursue, but when he recollected the speeches
of the Noble Lord, formerly the Secretary for Ireland, and who
was ROW Secretary for the Colonies (Lord Stanley), as
well as those of Sir Robert Peel and others, to which he had
listened with so much delight in the House of Commons, he
was led to believe that they would speak in the same way in
which they intended to vote. Had the Noble Lord forgotten
that it was for this very reason that Sir Robert Peel had re-
signed in 1835, and that for a similar reason Lord Stanley had
left Lord Grey's Government? He had thought it his duty
thus to express his sentiments, and he had done sn with con-
siderable anxiety, and repeated he saw nothing in this Bill to
which he could not completely assent. He should therefore vote
for it, though he was aware that in so doing he should
be opposing the opinions of a great portion of the
people of this country. Another course remained for him,
He need not vote at all, but that was a course which he had
never pursued in any debate, and it was one of the ehebbiest
expedients that could possibly be adopted. It was ntithing
else than publishing to the world that a inan was not compe-
tent to form an opinion at all upon the subject. This was a
measure which in some degree intimated the policy which they
intended to pursue towards Ireland. They had many
grievances to be remedied, and these remedies could only be eta-
tained through the means of conciliation or by the power of
the sword. Whatever might be atti mpted, the sword of the
State roust ultimately prevail in any contest which might arise,
however dreadful that contest might be. He was, therefore,
glad that a policy of conciliation was affected towards Ireland ; '

teetante, that made them so ? He would not follow the speech
of the Noble Earl who had just sat down, and point out how
the Roman Cathohee of Ireland had been treated by the Pro-
testants of England. They had h and it sail that the Roseau
Catholic rel.gion was patronised and upheld in Canada be-
cause it was a ceuqueretl country. teot Ireland was also
conquered by Henry the Second, and it had been treated
as a conquered province from that time to this. Could they,
then, he surprised, after knowing how they had been treated,
that they should look at our religion, beautiful and mild as it is,
through the glass of party, with suspicion and distrust. An-
other argument had been touched on by the Noble Lord who
had just sat down, namely, their unchangeebleness Most
tree, their principles were unchangeable. They were un-
changed. But in practice they were most ductile, and they
would change yet more and more, as fellow-subjects and
fellow-Christians. He would appeal to what he hid himself
seen in the Grand Duchy of Baden. There were numbers col-
lected of Church of England members in the episcopal town of
the duchy, and what did the Roman Catholic Bishop do? Did
be crush the Lutherans and persecute the Church of England
mert? No. He sent for one of the Church rectors of the
town, and said " There are a number of Lutherans who have
no place in which to perform their religious rites. There are a
number of Church of England members who have no church to
meet in, I command you, therefore—(their Lordships would
observe that it was not a request, but a command)—that the
rector should open his church, and that in the morning the
Roman Llathoec fre m of worship should be performed a little
earlier. The Lutherans then to hate it for their own peculiar
worship, and the church again to be open twice a day, morning
and evening, for the members of the Church of England." lie
did not say that the same could be done in this country, but at
the same time he thought they might cultivate a closer friend-
ship with the Rom m Catholics, by approximating to a similar
liberality. It had been said, and :said must truly, that the
Roman Cathode priesthood educated at alaynooth were so ig-
norant that they were not fit to be associated with clergymen
of other persuasions. They were now about to try a great ex-
periment for their benefit, and he would ask should they allow
things to remain in their present stagnant position? Was it
nothing that they could by such measures as this advance the
progress of education and produce a better understanding be-
tween the two countries? He should only trespass on the
attention of the House on one other point. Let
them suppose that in Ireland things were re-
versed, that affairs were altered, and that instead of
six and a half millions of Roman Catholics, and not quite a
million of the supporters of the Church of England, anti other
Protestants—not in all a million and a half? Supposing that
they had a Roman Catholic Government, and that that Go-
vernment had in a moment of kindness and benevolence, prof-
fered such a measure, and that the six and a half million of
Roman Catholics had opposed it. What should they, the Pro-
testants, have said then ? Why they would have denounced
them most properly as bigoted and intolerant. He (the
Bishop of Norwich) would have headed the cry, and denouncil
the Roman Catholics in the strongest language. Why then
should Protestants denounce a Bill, which if they had been in
the place of the Roman Catholics they would have hailed as a
measure of the noblest Christianity. He would trespass on
their Lordships' time no longer. It was his intention to vote
for this measure, because be considered it a religious question,
inasmuch as it was associated with justice and benevolence and
love. He would vote for it, because he considered it a Christian
measure, inasmuch as it partook of, and put in practice that
n ble and permanent feature of the Saviour's Gospel—" do unto
othees as ye would that they should do unto you." He
should vote for it as an experiment in the right direction—
( (heers)—as an experiment in favour of education,
and education under any form must elicit truth, and as truth
was elicited—and here he hoped Noble Lords of the Roman
Catholic faith would not think that be spoke harshly—he
spoke as a Protestant Bishop, and he said that as education
advanced truth was elicited; and he trusted that in the very
same proportion as truth was elicited, the Roman Catholic
persuasion would be erased from the minds and hearts of the
Irish people. It would then be found that this measure, which
was now so much denounced, would be in an aftertime, anti
by a future generation, esteemed one of the most wise, most
beneficial, and most useful passed in the 19th century.—
(Cheers. ) He rejoiced to find that her Majesty's Government
had brought this measure forward, and he only regretted that
when Noble Lords on the opposite side of the House were pre-
pared to bring forth a measure similar in character, they did
not receive that support from the Members of the present Go-
vernment which they so truly deserved. But he said he re-
joiced, and he d d so sincerely, that past differences were for-
gotten, and that both parties came now forward in a body to
support the Government; and he would also give them his
cordial and hearty support in this measure of justice to the Ro-
man Catholics of Ireland.—( Cheers. )
The Ea'l of 'MO RNIN GTOS said that he was aware that
many Noble Lords of greater ability than himself were anxious to
address the House ; but he could not allow the measure to pass
without making one or two observations upon the subject.
The reasons which had actuated the illustrious William Pitt in
the foundation of this institution, had been a desire to educate
the Irish priesthood at home, in order that they might escape
the demoralising influence which a residence in France would
occasion. He would, with the permission of their Lordships,
quote some evidence taken before that House at the period when
that Minister—the greatest England had ever known—was
about to found the College. The Noble Lord then quoted evi-
dence taken before the Hs use relative to the power of the Pope
to absolve subjects from the allegiance due to their sovereigns,
and the degree of civil authority which it was as-
sumed he had the right of exercising in this country.
The Act of 1829 had given emancipation, and though it had
not carried out to its legitimate extent the spirit of justice and
restitution, was that a reason why the Legislature should now
hesitate to complete it ? When it war said that oppor-
tunities for education should not be accorded the Roman Ca-
tholics, it was tacitly declaring that members of that cemmn-
nion were not fit to be entrusted with political power; for a
more extended and liberal education was but the earnest and
forerunner, if not the essential principle of political influence.
If the system of teaching adopted at Maynooth be bad, by
giving the students the means of getting superior, they would
be the first to seek sounder education for themselves.—
( Hear, hear.) The Catholic religion, when impressed
on ignorant minds, was pernicious, but when instilled on
educated and erudite minds it was sublime in principle
and beneficial in its effects, and that man of the Anglican
Church who could not entertain respect for tenets of the
Gallic—not the ultra-mnntaine or jesuitical—Church, was not
lihe-al or wise. A mistake had been made by his Noble rela-
tive, and other Lords who had adopted the s .me course of
areument, in asserting that the Roman Catholic religion was
imbued with principles dangerous to the Constitution, and sub-
versive of civil liberty. Such might have been originally the
tendency of those tenets; but was it fair, was it true, to assert
that their consequences were still so fatal ?—(llear, hear.)
That argument, however, had been plausibly supported by an
appeal to the nature of the concordats of the Pope. But what
influence or authority had in reality those concordats?
Lord CLANC.e TY—Norte at all.—( Hear, hear. )
The Earl of MORNINGTON—I thank the Noble Lord
for that reply; it is the very one I desired. It establishes my
position, and, as the lawyers say, puts the Noble Earl
out of the record.—( Loud laughter.) The Noble Lord,
in continuation, observed, that the Papal concord its
were founded on the principle of the peace of Europe,
as settled in the year 1649, and ratified susequently in 1815.
Veit the authority of the Pope was now virtually a nullity.
He could not translate Bishops, and his power over the minds
of the priests was less than the Archbishop of Canterbury pos-
sessed over the English Church, independent of the Crown.
The Pope had objected last year to the agitation for repeal
in Ireland. He bad expressed his approval of the Bequests
Act, but his opinion was disregarded, and even his authority
received a check. In Germany, however conflicting the reli-
gious tenets of the people, Lutheran, Calvinist, and Catholic
laved together in harmony and brotherly love; and that,
not because they compromised their principles, but
that they tolerated other and dissenting creeds. Let such a
creditable course of u.iity and charity be adopted between the
Roman and Anglican Churches in this kingdom, and let the
spirit which pervaded and dictated the present measure be car-
ried to its fullest extent, and the consequence would be the
suppression of error, the promotion of religion, the happiness of
the people, and the glory of the United Kingdom.—( Hear.)
Lord COLCHESTER, feeling as he did the strongest ob-
jection to the Bill, and intoning therefore to give it his de-
cided opposition, wished to offer a few remarks, if perchance
they might induce that House to
The
before it sanctioned a
measure so fraught with evil.
.The feeling that dictated the
petitions against the Bill, emanating not only from Dissenters,
though he remembered the time when the opinions of Dissen-
ters were respected by the Noble Lords opposite, but from the
United Assembly of the Church of Scotland, from the great
body, both lay and clerical, of the Church of England, from the
Universities of Oxford and Cambridge—
Lord BROUGHAM—No, no. No petitions have been pre-
sented from either of those Universities.

thing which fell from him was at all likely to influence their
Lordships, or that he could adduce anything new upon the
subject on this the third night of the debate, which he trusted
would be the last. —( Hear, hear.) He thought that her Ma-
jesty's Government. was entitled to high credit for the line they
had talon, and he thought that those who had taken any part
in the promotion ef this measure, as was the case with the
friends with whom he had acted all the days of his live, should
share in the obloquy and clamour which had been raised
throughout the country. With respect to ta e speech of the
Noble Duke, in which he made an attack on the Noble Earl op-
posite, he night remind the House that the very same imputa-
tions had been thrown out on the passing of the Catholic Eman-
cipation
measure he thought that it was one of the very
Bill ; arid with regard to this being an isolated
best futures of
the measure that it was not an isolated Bill, but was the pre-
cursor of other measures which would be of essential service
to the country. On prin:iple he was sincerely attached to a
Church establishment. He thought that it was one of the
highest duties of the State to provide for the temporal and
spiritual interests of the people, but it was a still higher duty to
provide for the spiritual in•erests of those under their care,
and for this reasan he should always support the Church
establishment of the c tuntry. The Right Rev. Prelates who
spoke againat the Bill gave no reason for their opposition to it,
but those Prelates who came from Ireland did give a reason.
They stated that the Church of Rome was an antagonist
Church, and yet the laity of our own Church and the clergy
also, but certainly a great majority of the clergy, believed
that there was some secret value in their ordi-
nation, some peculiar value in the authority which they
derived from their apostolic succession, and yet this virtue was
derived through the Roman Catholic clergy, in some of the
worst and most corrupted agaTa of that church. There was, it
was true, some difference of opinion between the two churches.
But was the Roman Catholic church to be called an antago-
nist church? He was personally opposed to that
.church, be-
csuse he believed that nothing ought to be held as true which
could not be proved by, or inferred from, the Holy Scriptures,
and the Roman Catholic church derived part of her faith from
other sources. But they believed in the same Saviour—they
inculcated the same morality, and were equally energetic and
successful with any Protestant in giving religious instruction
to the whole of the people. He did not see anything, then, to
prevent hi.n from giving his assent to this Bili ; anti the more
so, as there was in the Catholic faith nothing that was con-
trary to religion. And if the objectors to the measure would
only look around they would see that, as the Noble Earl had
stated, there was no country in Europe in which the Roman
Catholic subjects, whether they lived under Protestant or
Roman Catholic sovereigns, were not loyal and orderly in their
deportment. But it had been said that the doctrines of the
Roman Catholic church were the same they were in ,the days
of error and persecution.—( Hear.) But was that
the case ? No one could say that it was.—(Hear.)
He would ask if Noble Lords who made use of the statement
that the Catholic religion had changed. believed it ? He must
use serious words in what he stated—the Roman Catholic reli-
gion had never changed, because those who were members of
that religion iotsrpreted some portions t f Scripture as placing
it under the tiirect influence of the Holy Spirit. let. if it had
changed it was but human. Let them look at the course of
the Roman Catholic religion. In ancient times crimes ef the
most violent nature were perpetrated by those professing that
faith, while, for upwards of a century, such occurrences had
not taken place. There was another objection which would be
of more importance if it were applicable to the case. Quota-
tions were made to the effect that the dissatisfaction
and discontent existing among the Catholics of Ire-
land were caused by the Roman Catholic College
of Maynooth, and in order to prove these quotations, a
Noble Duke went through a catalogue of the assizes to show
the connexion between the doctrines taught to youth and the
crimes set forth in it. How had England treated the popula
tion of Ireland ? They began by exterminating them—they
degraded them by penal laws, anti therefore made them bad
subjects. Ireland could not endure the penal code which was
in Once—they resisted it, and it was modified. They asked
btt
ehrroaokt
eoc ont
huoenf tryr ,promise
n; ta which
ctetirttryhi
et
years.t
yd mb ay d e
t hitt
aeoti their
raeosi
them,
i st aea nn e, as a
performed
e 3 ru a t hoeey:
the people of Ireland to assist them in carrying their union with
w
and the Catholic Emancipation Bill was carried—not on the
ground on which they all stated they were actuated in
supporting it (Hear)—not on the grounas of justice
or truth ( Hear) (because they had no right to
deprive people who differed with them in religion of certain
rights) but because they could not resist it any longer.—( Hear,
hear.) He hoped that the measure 1 efore their Lordships
would not be an isolated one, and if they pursued the policy
they had commenced they would not only confirm their union
with Ireland, but render that country, by a steady system of
impartiality anti concession, the strongest instead c f the weakest
part of the empire.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Earl who
moved the arneridme: t (Earl Roden) said that the Protestant
religion had not had fair play. He ( Earl Spencer) most en-
tirely agreed with the Noble Earl. He thought Protestantism
had not had fair play, for when they had irritate I the great body
of the Roman Catholics, and hail broken the promises
which they had made to them, and when they were under
the influence of penal laws, they presented them will the Pro-
testant religion. No.hing could be mote unwise or mote likely
to engender a feeling of hostility to the Protestant religion,
and to prevent it from having fair play. Presbyterian Scot-
land was in a constant state of anarchy and contusion until
they gave her the Presbyterian form of Clurch Government,
when prosperity and peace followed.—( Hear, hear ) Ireland
was in this state of confusion. and the only way was to adopt a
similar policy towards Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) As a first step
in that direction, he should give the measure his best support.
Several Noble Lords rose, but after some conversation they
gave way to
The Bishop of NOR WICII,who said he was anxious to state to
their Lordships why he intended to give his vote sincerely to the
measure before the House. He was going to make an apology
for rising to address their Lordships, but he did not think it
was necessary. No apology was necessary from a man who
gave his:, opinions honestly.
But he thought that, from the
situation in which he was placed, he ought to give some
explanation why he chose to give his vote in favour of the
measure. He did so because they could be little aware of the
obloquy which every individual, more especially those of his
profession, was exposed who dared to come forward in a ease
of toleration and of mercy towards those who differed from
them. He heard from a Noble Lord some harsh expressions
towards those ecclesiastics who were about to vote in favour of
the measure. He insinuated that they were like faithless
shepherds abandoning their flecks. That was like_other lan.
guage wnich he had heard. He was shown a pamphlet last
week, which was written, he was sorry to say, by a clergyman
of the Church of England, and addressed to those Bishops who
were prepared to vote in favour of the grant to Maynooth, and
in which they were accused of
language was used, w would not insult
falsehood. Stronger
which he
their Lordships by repeating. It accused them of
being heretics, and infidels, and as anti• Christian, and
that they were a, ()states from their holy religion. A Right
Hon. :Baronet in another place was called by another Rev.
Orat trusted, for the honour of the Church of England,
that he was a Dissenter—lie was denounced before a large
audience that he was an anti-Christ. He (the Bishop of
Norwich) was Protestant in his feelings gether—nay, more,
he had reason to believe thee he was opposed to the opinions.
part and limed, of the Romish creed, which opinions were
upheld and supported by many who had signed anti-slay-
nooth petitions. Ile declared that he was averse to Popery in
whatever form or shape it appeared—he was especially averse
to that Popery which entered into Protestant denominations.
he was everse to it in every shape or way. Every denomina-
tion was anxious to cull for itself a maximum of toleration, and
to give others a miiiiinum. He wouid say a few words with
respect to the petitions presented to the House. 'I hat they
had been numerous beyond all precedent he would not deny,
but that they represented the feelings
of the people of Eng-
land, he was inclined from close investigation rather to deny.
He had taken some pains to analyse those petitions, and he
was prepared to say that they were not the resislt of a spon-
taneous feeling, but were couched in the same language, and
in the same words, and were issued from an office in London,
and disseminated in various parts t f the country, for the
purpose of being signed, and for the purpose of collecting
subscriptions. He knew a town with a population of 9,0110
persons, from which ten petitions had emanated. They were '
scattered over the town, and in every ward, and the number
of signatures was only 220. With respect to the members of
his own profession, he believed that a very large proportion
were in favour of the measure. Of eleven pamphlets which
he had seen on the subject, three were written by clergymen
agaii:st it, and three by laymen in favour of it. He thought
if their eordships had taken the same pains to analyse the
petitions as he had, they would have correberated the testimony
he had given. He was ready to allow that the Dissenters bail
sent petitions, but they were opposed. to the grant on the
ground that they were opposed to all endowments. He would
read a ciicular addressed to the Roman Catholics of Ireland,
which was adopted at a meeting of Dissenters held in London
in the course of last month. The Right Rev. Prelate then
read portions of the circular which sympathised with the griev-
ances of the Catholics of Ireland, and specified them as most
unjust
glint, Church in Ireland, anti that they,would
use their utmost exertions to remove the grievances under which
on them
used
to t
tigeprAesnstve, and attributed the grievances inflicted
oi
they laboured.
The Earl of WINCHILSEA asked from what body of Dis-
senters the address emanated.
The Bishop of IN ORWICH said it emanated from a confe-
rence of Protestant Dissenters, held in Crosby-hall, London.
The petitions to which he had alluded did not enter into a coin-
bat wi,h large principles, but details. But it was their duty
to banish erroneous doctrines, and to combat error wherever
duty—it was the duty of every man,
to do his best to combat any
error which counteracted the religion of the Gospel—every
man, more or less, ought not to countenance error. He
nn
otemy
aftutuenrdwihta;tits,wataisortihheeirfilied,
believed, therefore, that the Church of England was the best
in Christendom—that it centained better elements than any
oiher church, and at the same time he must say that the
church, free as it was, was altogether destitute of error.—
( Hear, hear.) Yet he could see in its elements an oscillation
—a fearful oscillation—from Calvinism on the one side to the
gates of Popery on the other.—(Hear, hear.) There were
errors in all human affairs, and it was their duty to contribute
to remove them by the best means in their power. The con-
duct of England towards Roman Catholic Ireland was unpa-
ralleled in the h'story of any denominations —they I ad been
treated with asperity', and their doctrines had been opposed by
intolerance and unchristian conduct. And how had they suc-
ceeded? They had altogether failed in accomplishing what
they intended. The Roman Catholic population of Ireland
was 6,500,000. There were 1,560,000 of Protestants, of
which not more than one-half were members of the Established
Church. Ten years ago, before the Ecclesiastical Commis.
sioners Falb ,ivAed the ditieese of Norwich into different
see., one Bishop, for 3.0001. to steioo/. a year, had
a greater numb.
- r of petsons under his spiritual care
flew the whole eighteen Pr,testat.t Bishops of Ireland.
There right be consolidated units in Ireland, but that argu-
ment equally well applied to his teen diocese; and when they
spoke of untoes and consolidations. he . thought that the hiss
they sail ue
oo the subject the better. ut again they were
answered that the Roma
n Cotics of I eland were worse than
any Roman Catholics on thath e face of the earth—more un-
table. They might be so. But, he
manageable, more intrac
would ask, why were they so? He would (no matter what
for the
his own opiniensovere). sake of argument, admit that
A allow that ey were ore unmanage-
t ley were so ; he would
but was it th
not they more unmanage-
able, more intractable; but was it not theythey, the Pro-
able, more

Lord COLCHESTER believed that petitions had been laid
on the table of the other House from influential individuals, if
not from the Corporations of both Universities.
Lord BROUGHAM again dissented.
Lor t COLCfI ES rEtt would not argue that question, but
the feeling that dictated such universal protests against' the
measure, would not die ; *hatter the Bill was carried or not,
the spirit of the country would still remain as decided and un-
compromisingly against it. As to the contract originally
urged as entered into at the Union, he could discern no such
understanding whatever. Mr. Grattan, indeed, in his address
upon that occasion, had alluded to a compact fur educating the
Irish people, but nothing was mentioned either directly or re-
motely of a permanent endowment of the College of Maynooth.
The principle then recognised was that an institution should be
endowed by the country and from the fund 3 of charitable
parties, but it comprehended no such system as State
endowment, whether temporary or permanent.—( Hear. )
It appeared to him, therefore, that the grant was only an an-
nual one, in aid of private contributions, and was not intended
to be permanent. If it were intended to be permanent, why
should the Government think it necessary to limit the grant
to twenty years ? lie did not think that the College of May-
nonth had any especial or particular claims to the favour of
Parliament. He read extracts from the books taught in May-
nooth to show that the system of education, and the discipline
adopted in that college, were such as a Protestant Government
ought not to encourage, and much less ought to endow. He
did nut think that the effect of the proposed grant would be
any more than to give an increased salary to the professors,
without at all improving the education of the pupils. With
every consideration which he had been able to give the subject,
he came to the conclusion that the measure would give as much
dissatisfaction in England as it would tend to encourage disaf-
fection in Ireland. He wished for the fullest toleration to the
Roman Catholic religion in Ireland. He was in favour of the
Bills for the institution of colleges in Ireland for the better
education of young men preparatory to their ecclesiastical in-
duction to the priesthood. He assured the House that It was
with no hostility to the Roman Catholic portion of his fellow-
subjects be felt bound to oppose this Bill.
Lord MON TEA GLE said that he rejoiced in the expression
of opinion which this discussion had elicited. He rejoiced that
all parties in both Houses had shown on the part of the United
Parliament that there was no occasion for the severance of the
empire, and that there sac a sincere desire upon the part of
Whigs and 'Fori.as, English, Irish, and Scot ch—( Cheers)—to
do every justice to the people of Ireland.—(Cheers.) Not-
withstanding what they had heard on that subject he should
state what he considered the peculiar importance of the
He thought that it was the most important measure that had
been presented to Parliament, he would almost say, since
the union—but he •should say unquestionably since the
relief Bill. la its practical effect on
it the popula-
tion of Ireland he thought that ought to
be considered more important. If their Lordships looked
back to the history of Ireland, disfigured as it was, confused
as it may be, by perpetual civil commotions, they would find
that all their contentious during latter years had resolved itself
into one great severance—not a severance of nations, but a se-
verance of religion, which unfortunately had placed the Pro-
testants on one side of the supposed line, and the Catholics
at the other. When his Noble Friend had stated that the
Protestant Church was not a persecuting church, he cheered
the statement because he believed that it was the most tolerant
church that existed. So far as h" could judge, the wisest and
most enlightened men were in the Church of England. He
thought that the governing party in Ireland was intolerant,
with a degree of astute wickedness which the annals of the
world had never surpassed. They persecuted the priests of
the Irish, and they persecuted their religion. The legislature
of King William in Ira land was the commencement of 'A legis-
lation of injustice, and a violation of faith. What did they do
with respect to education? In the height of their
baseness they made it criminal on the part of a Roman Catholic
to get education at home, and they made it criminal if they
went in quest of it abroad.— ( Hear, hear.) They had been
active instruments in carrying out their own wicked legis-
lation. But he thought that those days were gone by, and he