The Sun.
London, England, 1845-07-31 00:00:00

the aid of an assistant engine. His prineipal object in rising.
however, was to call the attention of her Majesty's Government
to a subject of far greater importance—he meant' the
present state of the national defences of thp country.—( Hear.)
Any man who valued peace, or who was at ail sensible of the
advantages derivable from peace, must feel that this was a .n at.
to of first-rate inKiortarece, because upon existence of
peace depended tire prosperity of th trails and reten-
merce of the nation.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") He had
Occasion to :tate, on a former day, that France
maintained a standing army of a 40,000 men fully equipped,
with a large cavalry, and a large artillety, and in additioreesa
' this she had nearly a milion of the National Guards of
trained, disciplined, reviewed, equipped, clothed, and accus-
tomed to all the fatigues and duties attendant upon a time of
war. If this country were totally inaccessible, if there were
impassable harriers existing between the two countries—if the
Channel could not be crossed—he would admit that their present
forces and means of defer-ice were amply sufficient for the na-
tional protection. But it was not so; the Channel could be
crossed in a few hours, arid France had a navy in every
respect superior to our own ; and the Chann,-1, therefore,
became no longer a barrier. France had a steam fleet ca-
pable of transporting :290.000 men. She had harbours inac-
cessible to any foreign Power fur the safeguard and refuge
of this fleet, and around these inaceessable harbours she had
immense bodies of well-disciplined men, regularly and alwa
stationed. With this state of things oil the opposite shore Of
the Channel, it was impossible that this colotry could remain
secure, unless Government established similar safeguards, and
formed a steam navy capable of repelling any foreign
intruder.—(Hear, hear.) He might be told that our
present relations with France were of the most
amicable nature, and he trusted they would always remain so;
but it was impossible they could be sure, from month to month,
that this peace would continue to exist between two such great
countries, having had large interests in nearly every part of the
globe. Questions of the utmost delicacy and difficulty might
arise unexpectedly, and they would be quite unprepared fur
averting evils which might resuit from them. When these
questions arose, moreover, they could not deal with France in
that spirit of independence which was consistent with the in-
terest and importance of this great country, if they were not in a
state to convince her that cur shores were inaccessible to
a foreign invader. On a former occasion he pointed out the
defenceless state of our naval arsenals, when the Right Hon.
Baronet told him that measures were taking for removing that
deficiency, and he had no doubt it would be done effectually.
He dwelt aiso, at the same time, upon the necessity of harbours
of refuge, when the Right Hon. Baronet stated that the subject
was under consideration, and Government intended to take a
vote for the purpose of establishing serne of them. The vote,
however, was too small ; but he trusted this small beginning
would be vigorously followed up in the next
session.—( Hear, hear.) But it was not only har-
bours of refuge they wanted ; their steam navy was in a
deficient state. There were no disciplined bodies of men sta-
tioned near to the coast, as in France, and, in the event of an
invasion being attempted, it would take up a considerable time
in getting the steam fleet ready to be used in repelling the enemy
—he was much mistaken if it could be done under three months.
He contended that there was a constitutional mode of guarding
against this state of things, by resorting to the practice,
which, from motives of economy, had been abolished, namely, of
calling up the militia. A short time ago he asked the Right lion.
Baronet, then Secretary for the Colonies,lwhether it was intended
to billet the militia, and the Right Hon. Baronet told him that
it was not. He had therefore felt it to be his duty, before the
House went into this Committee of Supply, to urge
upon the Government the great importance of re-
organising this portion of our military force. There
was no constitutional objection to this course; while
it would considerably increase the army at a comparatively small
expense. It was not enough for Government to have a majority
in that House—it was not enough for them to pass their mea-
sure and scramble through the session—it was not enough for
them to introduce good measures for domestic legislation, a r.d he
admitted that some of their measures this session had been ex•
cellent—no, it was not sufficient for a Government to do all
this; there was something else for them to do. They ought
to put the country in such a state of security that they should
be able to set at defiance all hostile invasions and hostile threats.

Sir R. PEEL said—Sir, I feel all the difficulty under
which any person placed in my situation mest labour in dis-
cussing publicly the question to which the Noble Lord has
felt it his duty to call our attention.—( Hear.) 1 totally differ
from the Noble Lord as to the detencsless position et this
country.—( Hear, hear.) I think I could prove that the Ni ble
Lord's impression on that subject is altogether erroneous ; but
I am quite sure that 1 should not be acting consistently with
sound discretion if I were to state the facts upon which my
own opinion is founded.--( Hear, hear.) Nothina could he so
unwise as to encourage parties—a small min trity 1 trust—in
other countries who may be bent on hostility to ours.—(Hear,
hear.) 1 should be very sorry to furnish them with instru-
ments to be used against their own Government, and thus to
prevent that Government, though sincerely desirous of
maintaining peace, from securing that object on account of
the clamour of a certain portion of the community.—( Hear )
I must say. generally, however, that the Noble Lord has
greatly underrated the power which this country would pos-
sess, in the event of hostilities, for the vindication of its honour.
—( Hear, hear.) So far from concurring in the opinion of
the Noble Lord, I believe that in case there should be a
necessity imposed on this country of resorting to hostilities,
there never was a period when such a demonstration as would
then be called forth has been made ; the Sovereign, sup-
ported and encouraged by the almost unanimous voice of the
people, being determined in a just cause to make efforts worthy
of the ancient character of this country.—( Hear.) I have a
strong opinion that upon that head we have nothing to fear.—
( Hear, hear.) I think it is hardly possible to estimate what
just
cause be seen to be the dormant energy of this country if a
cause should call it forth. At the same time, I must say that
I concur in some of the principles which have been expressed
by the Noble Lord. I think it would be most unwise in this
country to trust altogether to present appearances, and I hold
that it is most advisable that this country should be able to feel
confident that, in the event of sudden hostilities, she would be
strong enough, and has the means, for her own protection. 1
quite agree with the Noble Lord, that on the sudden occur-
rence of hostilities, as for example in the year 1793, unless you
are in a state cf preparation, the cost of sudden exertion is im-
mense ; and that it is a most unwise econornS, which would
leave you to make sudden, precipitate, and unlooked-for efforts,
in order to secure your own safety. I think also, with the
Noble Lord, that this country should be in such a state
that. any other power may not on that account be encouraged
to resort to hostilities for the purpose of obtaining advan-
tages. I trust, indeed, that we shall be able to preserve the
friendly relations which exist between this country and
France ; this, I hope, will be the case, both for the sake of
England and France, and for the sake of the civilised world.
So far are this country and the House of Commons from
grudging the prosperity of France, that I am sure I speak the
general feeling when I say that we saw the returns respectirg
the commerce of Fiance with great satisfaction.—( Hear, hear.)
I wish that more intimate commercial relations may be esta-
blished between the two countries ; but I do trust also that
whilst France is increasing in her commerce, she will see that
she owes that increase of prosperity to the maintenance of
peace, and that there will be among all rational people in that
country a deliberate opinion that the honour and interests of
France may be much better maintained by cultivating industry
and promoting commercial prosperity than they could be by
seeking that which is perfectly unnecessary for that most gal-
lant country, whose reputation stands so high at every period
of her history, namely, the maintenance of her glory by the
increase of her territorial possessions.—( Hear, hear.) But,
Sir, I must own that I am rather surprised at the Noble
Lord's excessive apprehensions on this subject ; because the
Noble Lord was in mlice for a period of ten years, and I ven-
ture to say that this country is in a better state with respect to
the means of repelling aggression than she was at that time.
—( Hear, hear.) Did the Noble Lord see France expend the sum
of fifteen millions sterling upon the fortifications cf Paris,
and issue an order increasing the army suddenly to the ex-
tent of 100,000 men ; arid doer the Noble Lord think that this
country now stands in the same position with respect to
France as it did in 1841 ?—( Hear.) There was no militia
ballot at that period ; there was not near the same amount
of military force that there is at present ; and I very much
doubt whether there were as many sail of the line.—( Hear. )
The Noble Lord has, I admit, suggested many points deservine
of serious consideration. It is impossible not to see what a
change has taken place with respect to navigation.—(Hear. )
1 think that this country has a perfect right to consult its own
security. If it were proposed to increase the military or naval
force of the country for the purpose of aggression, we ought
most. set iously to consider the policy of such a course ; but, as
to taking measures for our own security in the event of public
hostilities, the last consideration which should present itself to
the mind of a Minister of the Crown is, " What will other
powers think ?"—( Hear, hear. ) I should certainly not hesi-
tate to propose to Parliament, without reference to any other
powers, what I considered necessary even for contingencies.—
( Hear, hear.) With reference to the dockyards, let me ask
what was the state in which we found them ? The Noble Lord
does not tell us that years passed without any measures of im-
provement being adopted.
An HoN MEMEEK—Steam was not in existence.

Sir It. PEEL—The improvements which are even now
going forward make it clesirabe that we should not be hurried
on to the adoption of measures, lest the money which we '
expend should be entirely thrown away. We have a perfect
right, however, to take precautions fir the defence of the
naval arsenals and dockyards of this country. For the Navy
and Ordnance we proposed this year an attention of 1,100,00 Ci.
in the estimates. I am placed, with respect to this matter,
between two fires.—( Hear, hear.) Every word that I say in
one direction may induce other parties to exclaim, "See what
the Minister said in the House of Commons ; we must now
have two or three millions neore."—( Hear, hear.) I should be
exceedingly sorry to see a race run between great powers—not
a race in commerce and civilisation—but each increasing as
far as possible its military and naval force.—( Hear, bear. )
There must be a limit to that. It is a question of the nicest
discretion, whether you shall propose large sums for the army
or the navy, or whether the effect will be to add to your rela-
tive strength. I know not a nicer question with regard to
economy and to every other public object than the extent to
which you will proceed. I hope, however, that this country
will never depart from that policy which has secured its safety,
namely, that of being strong as a naval power, mid at the same
time not attempting to enter into competition with the great
military powers of Europe.—( Hear, hear.) Say what you
will, this country would not be satisfied with the existence of
a standing army of 100,000 or 200,000 men kept within our
own land. 1 admit that the amount of military force is not
sufficient now to enable you, consistently with due economy,
to meet the demands which may arise; but with respect to
our becoming a great military power, and relying upon having
a military force able at once to meet that of other countries,
except for the purposes of our oeen defence, that is a competi-
tion into which I trust this country will never enter.—( Hear,
hear.) I do hope that this country will always have such a
degree of naval strength as will enable her to feel entire con-
fidence, in the event of hostilities. Then, with regard to the
subject of local militia, let me say that 1 apprehend we have a
demand, in case of necessity, upon a body of disciplined

men amounting to 50,000, in whom we might repose great
confidence. 1 refer to the Chelsea pensioners.--( Hear,
hear.) When I was Secretary of State twenty years since, I
even then felt that the militia was in an unsatisfactory state,
and that there ought to be some local force constituted in this
country. The Noble Lord is aware that under the Act
there is no prohibition against proceeding to ballot for the
militia. The Act suspends the obligation to ballot, which
would otherwise be imposed on the Crown ; but, in case of
necessity, the Crown would still be able to resort to
this force. I would observe, that there has been that
change in the state of society within the last few years
which would probably rerder the present militia laws not
exactly so suitable as they were, and they might, perhaps, un-
dergo useful alterations. It is not necessary, perhaps, that I
should now enter into any further explanation on this subject,
which the Noble Lord has introduced. lam bound to content
myself with stating that his impression as to the defencelessness of
this country is totally at variance with my own. I speak not
of that which concerns the public spirit and the honour of
Englishmen—( Hear, hear)—tor I ant sure that the Noble
Lord will admit, that with whatever difficulties an appeal to
the country might be attended, that appeal would be entirely
successful.—( Cheers.) Whatever may be required fur the
public service will be asked for without scruple by her Ma-
jesty's Government. lam sure the House will feel the ne-
cessity of placing this country at all times in such a state of
security that it will not have to depend upon temporary and
possibly delusive appearances of tranquillity, but there will be
actual peace, without any anxiety as to the result of the imme-
diate occurrence of hostilities.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble
Lord said that we had fortunately a large surplus. But who
is to be thanked fur that ?—( Hear, hear, amt laughter.) We
have a large surplus in consequence of that imposition of tax-