The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-09 00:00:00

He should wish to see the Hon. Member for Lymington
b .'es; - IL has. given his attention to this sub-
ject, end had been the chairman of a Committee who in-
quired into the matter, and ought to be able to give
them much information as to the mode of legislating.
Having presided over a Committee, and knowing what
the measure should be, he ought not to proceed by an
abstract resolution of this kind. He thought it an impe-
diment to legislation. He would ask him as their pioneer
not to press his resolution, but at entree to produce
his measure. He begged to be allowed to call the
attention of the House to the importance of his resolu-
tion. He said that interment within the City was
a breach of public decorum—that it was in-
consistent with social feeling, and with public
health.—(llear, hear.) He (Sir James Graham)
was not prepared to coincide with these statements.
With regard to public decorum he could not understand
how any further legislation Kas necessary to check it.
With reference to the case of the Spa-fields burying-
ground, he thought it his ditty on the part of the Go-
vernment to institute prosecteions. The matter was
now 'pending. At the instance, and by the in-
stigation of the. Government, the parties had been
prosecuted, and- if the facts should be fully established,
he thought the law was strong enough to grapple with
the matter. Let them proceed to the Bill prohibiting
interment in cities, adopting the suggestion given them
by Mr. Chadwick, he was perfectly sure that public
feeling would be excited to the strongest de-
gree; and if they did not take care it would be violated.
As long as they confined themselves to abstract reolu-
tions, the public would not become very much interested.
The Ecclesiastical Commissioners reported only against
interment in chancels; and the report of the Sanatory
Commission, which glanced on the rubject incidentally,
proposed nothing specific. He admitted that the health
of the people in large towns was only to be dealt with
by the Government in a comprehensive measure. The
Bill was almost prepared, and it. would be brought before
the House by his Noble Friend the Earl of Lincoln this
present session. Yet •he thought that this sub
ject was so marked and distinguished from all other
causes of disease that it would be expedient to
keep it out of the operation of this measure.
Then; with respect to the terms of the report of Mr.
Chadwick, his labt.urs on this subject had been me., t
extensive, but he thought there was something ex-
aggerated in his views, and his remedial measures had
convinced him of the ill effect of legislating on the
subject. Now what was the proposition of Mr. Chad-
wick? Why that all the arrangements for interments,
which had been hitherto conducted by private hands,
should be carried out by the Government, and that those
interments should take place at least four miles
outside the walls of the metropolis. He
thought that they ought to take care how they.
adopted such principles by premature enactment; he
thought matters had much better be left to them-
selves, and.by that means the community would be much
more inclined to accede to the plan. He believed
that the adoption of the proposition of Mr. Chadwick,
to take out of the hands of private parties, and place irt
the hands of the Government the conducting of inter-
ments, whatever sanction it might meet with within
those walls, would out of doors be generally repudiated.
He though the utmost caution ought to be observed in
legislating on the subject. He would willingly agree to
any measure—indeed, bring it forward—if he could only
meet one that was likely to turn out satisfactory; but, as
at present advised, he had not as yet been able to pro
cure or meet with a measure that was, in his opinion,
worthy of adoption. It had been asserted in that
House that he (Sir J. Graham) ought to bring
forward some measure on the subject, but the
question was, what that measure should be, in
order fully to grapple with the •evils cora-
-1 plained of ? He must say, that on the part of the
Government, he was not prepared to bring in any mea-
sure, and he thought, therefore, it would be most im-
proper to agree to the resolution of the Hon. Member
for Lymington. His Hon. Friend had told the House
that he was prepared to bring in a Bill, hut it was ac-
companied with the condition of the House passing the
resolution. He (Sir James Graham) could not see the
necessity of carrying the resolution before bringing in a
Bill. Why not, he would ask, let the Bill be brought
in, and then let the House give its opinion upon it? With
every disposition to give the most candid consideration
to any measure brought forward by his Hon. Friend the
Member for Lymington, he felt bohnd to tell him
that he was compelled to oppose the resolution.
Mr. BERNAL thought there was great difficulty in
the resolution proposed, and although he was prepared
to go along with the Hon. Member for Lymington, in
the principle of the resolution, he could not agree to all
its dogmas. As to saying there were no dangers in in-
terments in large towns, he need only refer to some of
the first authorities in medicine and science to contra-
dict that assertion. He believed there was a great deal
of exaggeration on the subject of the number of burials
that took place in the metropolis, because it must be ad-
mitted that the cemeteries of Kensal-green and other
places drew a great number of interments from the
centre of the metropolis. But still, however, it
must be admitted that a great number of
burials took place, especially in the neighbour-
hoods in which the poor resided. In fact, the
poor were the parties who generally suffered, and as a
proof of that, he need only call upon Hon. Members, if
they disbelieved him, to go to such places as St. Cle-
ment's, Clare-market, and St. Anne's, Soho. If the
Right lion. Gentleman was prepared to say he would
bring in seine measure to relieve the poor of the neces-
sity of but ying their dead in those places, he would say
at once to the Hon. Gentleman the Member for Lyming-
ton, abandon your resolution and leave the subject to the
consideration of the Government. He thought it un'air
to say that it was the ministers of the Established
Church alone that offered the only difficulty to the re-
moval of these nuisances. He considered that his
Honourable Friend the Member for Lymington
had not . presented to the House such a
resolution as he could agree to vote for, but, at the same
time, he must say that the Right Hon. Baronet at the
Head of the Home Department would not do his duty
either to the House or the country unless he did some-
thing on the subject, either in the course of the present
or the next session. Some endeavour should be made to
close those places of infection to which he had alluded—
namely, the burying-grounds of St. Clement's, Clare-
market, and St. Anne's, Soho. He, for one, should be
heartily glad to see them closed ; and it was his firm
belief that some arrangement might be made with the
parish authorities to obtain so desirable an object as that
of preserving the health of those who lived there.
Dr. BOWRING was afraid that the speech of the
Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Home Depart-
ment gave no hope to his Hon. Friend, who had intro-
duced the subject, that it would receive the favourable
consideration of the Government. He thought it a dis-
grace to a country like England, that the example of
foreign states had not been followed by it. In France,
Spain, Germany, Denmark, and in the Oriental world,
the cemeteries were removed from the inhabited places.
Nothing could be more distressing than the manner in
which the poor were interred in this great city. It was
stated in the report of Mr. Chadwick that Mr. Wild had
stated that in many instances no less than from ten to fif-
teen funerals were appointed to take place at the same
time. That, of course,'the funerals took place in a hur-
ried manner, and that the poor constantly complained of
this, and asked him the reason. As far as re-
garded the middle and the higher classes, they were"
leaving the city and interring their departed friends in
the cemeteries surrounding London. He believed the
receipt of the fees for burials was the great, if not the
only cause for the objection that had been made to the
removal of burial-grounds out of great cities.—(Hear.)
He could not concur with his Hon: Friend (Mr. Bernal)
that the resolution of the Hon. Member for Lymington
was exaggerated, because it was his firm belief that in
the vast number of burials which took place in large
towns, especially in London, the public health was sacri-
ficed and decorum violated. If the Right Hon. Baronet
at the head of the Home Department would take in
hand the fees, and tell the clergy that they would lose
nothing, the whole difficulty would be removed. Let
any person follow the poor man to his grave—
(Hear, hear)—and see the dreadful receptacle
that was prepared for his body mingling with its parent
earth, and he would at once exclaim that the proposition
of the Hon. Member for Lymington ought to be carried
nut. Let that same individual go to Turkey and see
the difference there. The interment of the most menial
was respected, and his body left to moulder in a paradise
rather than in a charnel house.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord MAHON did not think the Right Hon. Baronet
had exaggerated the difficulties of the subject, but he
certainly had underrated its importance.—(Hear, hear.)
No question was more essential to She health and well
being of large towns.—(Hear, hear.) True, they had
been told that the Government had measures in view for
improving the health of large towns by draining, ventila-
tion, supplying them with water, and so on; but that was
nothing compared with the importance of the present
question.—(Hear, hear.) Of what use,. he would ask,
was ventilation, when it carried with it an atmosphere
that contained pestilence and death? or what was the
use of supplying those places with water, when that ele-
ment contained all that was rank and noxious, and
inimical to human life? He could not follow his Right
Hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Home De-
partment in the manner in which he treated so lightly
the course paneled by foreign nations.—(Hear,hear.) He
believed that there was no country in Europe.
with the exception of England, that permitted
interments in the hearts of their capitals. On
those grounds, then, he would say that there was no
subject could come before the Legislature that more
emphatically demanded the attention of the Legislature
and the public than this.—(llear, hear.) But at the
same time he should say that he had very little hope of
any beneficial result following public legislation upon
it, because there were so many private interests con-
nected with those burying grounds that would be sure
to interfere. However, if there should be l
ie v
any
upon the subject, he would be very happy to g
assistance in his power, for he did think the subject was
one the, demanded immediate attention ; but at the same
dine he should say he could not agree in the
terms of the resolution proposed by his Honour-
able Friend. When the Honourable Member for
Lymington first mentioned this subject to him, he
told him he would always vote for any resolution
declaring that interment within large towns was not
conducive to the health of the inhabitants of those towns,
but at the same time he was of opinion, -that any
legislative measure that should be proposed on the sub-
ject should be confined to the metropolis ; and then,
after a little time, extended to the country towns. But
he saw, by the resolution of his Hon. Friend, that he did
not even mention large towns, he merely said towns.
'.l\ MACE INNQN here interrupted the Noble Lord,
and, as we understood, tokihim
he
eaht
atrhtebreeeenolumtii
tank 4n
d
in
contain the words " large towns.
Lord still
ii then,
he could not concur in the
resolution did
Ltboatrd
particularlAllON ;l
but r
resolution in its present shape, while, at the same time,
he would always be ready to urge upon the Govern-
ment Cite necessity for some useful and efficient legisla-
tion upon 'the subject.' .•