The Sun.
London, England, 1829-05-26 00:00:00

•
yo--e- • At-

example - set by Hackney wilt. be followed else-
where ? For my purpose it happens most fortu-
nately that one parish adjoining Hackney, and re-
garding the state of. which some special inquiries
were made--I mean the parish of Tottenham—is in
a very different condition. Let us .takesthe autho-
rity of the officers -of 'the parish of Hackney upon
this point. The Gentleman who is. Clerk to the
Trustees for watching Hackney, was asked whe-
ther the parochial watch there did not answer per-
fectly, and he answered in the affirmative ; and then
the question was put, what effect the system hag'
upon the adjoining parishes ; and I entreat the
House to remember that this is not a parochial but
a general question, and he admits that the moment
the improved nightly watch was established in
Hackney, crime within the parish rapidly diminis-
ed : he said, " One system we adopted imme-
diately was this—that whenever an attempt at bur-
glary took place at a particular station, these men
were suspended until the next meeting, to account
for their conduct, when the circumstances were in-

vestigated. We put out one Bill which had a very
desirable effect on some measure, authorising our

officers to stop all persons who were moving about at
night under tolerably suspicious circumstances. The
moment that went • out, it appeared to have driven
all the thieves out of the parish; immediately they
went away, they appeared to go to Tottenham."
After this evidence, we proceeded to inquire into

the state of Tottenham, and the accounts we re-
ceived as to the state of the nightly watch and the
commission of crime, confirmed the opinion before
entertained. Mr. Matthew was examined as to the
state of Tottenham, and he told the Committee
thut depredations were frequent, and especially
within the last month or six weeks; arid when

asked: regarding the nightly watch, his answer was,
" There are private watchmen, but we have no re-
gular watchmen, except what are appointed by the
trustees tif the road ; but they leave their duty at
twelve o'clock, which we consider no protection
against housebreaking, though it may to persons
who are travelling on the King's highway; but it
is no protection to the inhabitants, generally speak-
ing, except to those travelling on the road, for we
are our own guardians until twelve or one o'clock,
when we retire to rest." Then he is asked if he

thought it would he acceptable to his parish, if there
were to be a uniformity of a police establishment in
his parish, and those adjoining, to which he replied
at once, " I think so." This was followed by the
question, " What has been the nature of the depre-
dations committed in your parish ?" And the re-
ply was., " I have taken the liberty to sketch out a
list." Which list the witness handed in ; and by

that paper it appeared that there had been sixteen
burglaries effected, and three attempted—in how
long a time does the House imagine ? Within less
than six weeks. This, let us recollect, in a parish
contiguous -to Hackney; and there, in six weeks,
there had been nineteen attempts at burglary, six-
teen of which had been successful. With such
evidence before it, it was incumbent on Govern-

merit, not merely for the protection of the inha-
bitants and of their property, but for higher ob-
jects—for repressing the growth of crime, and
for preventing the necessity for the infliction
of those severe punishments with which our
criminal law is chargeable. This diversity is the in-
evitable •consequence of having a good police estab-
lishnient in one parish—it drives all the evil-disposed
into an adjoining parish, which is not equally well
protected. The Hon. Member has complained that
I propose to establish an arbitrary and oppressive
system. So far from its being arbitrary and oppres-
sive, let us recollect that our police is now defective,
that in cases of sudden emergency, we have no other
remedy than the employment of military•force to
repress disorder. I give no powers to the new police
but those of ordinary watchmen; I do not propose
to extend their authority in any way—the only
difference being, that the whole is to be under the
controul of Government, under one general system
nlregulation. lam desirous of abolishing that state
of things according to which a watchman on one.
side-of Oxford-street has no authority on the other.
Some remedy must be devised for the system with-
out system by which London is divided, as it were,
into a number of independent kingdoms, in a great
majority of which there is no watch at all. Some
remedy ought to be devised, and until it is devised,
we must witness and lament the growth of crime,
without being able effectually to check it. I have
before mentioned, that in 1822 the number of com-
mittals for Middlesex was 2,500; and by 1828 they
ha'i increased to 3,500, being an increase of 1,000
committals in the course of only eight years. That
the evils will be entirely remedied by the Bill before

the House, I do not pretend to say; but this I
know, that no man charged with the responsibility
of providing for the protection of the metropolis,
can longer delay taking the sense of the Legislature
on the fitness of endeavouring to discover a more
effectual system.
Sir J. MACKINTOSH—There is no part of
the plan of the Right lion. Gent. which I more
heartily approve than the abolition of die fantastic
and inconvenient divisions of this capital, by the
concentration of a police force, applicable to all, for
the prevention of crime and the protection of pro-
perty. Upon that point I shall say no more : but
I hope I shall be excused for saying, without expect-
ing an immediate answer, that it would give me
great pleasure to be allowed to believe that I con-
strue some of the expressions of the Right Hon.
Gent. rightly, when I remark, that I am by them
to suppose that he is not altogether without inten-
tion of reducing the number of capital punishments
for which all his operations on the criminal law have
laid the foundation, and to which they naturally
lead.

Mr. LENNARD looked with great jealousy or
any measure which went to place so much power in
the hands of a Secretary of State. It savoured a
great deal too much of arbitrary power, and tended,
in his opinion, to place the whole civil power under
the controul of a force more objectionable even than
the army. The Hon. Gentleman concluded by ex-
pressing his conviction that, at all events, the City of
London ought to have been- included in a general
measure of this kind; and repeated his opinion,
that the Bill ought to be watched with great consti-
tutional jealousy, as there was some fear of the
same system being extended to Manchester,
mingham, and other great towns in the kingdom.
Mr. ESTCOUItT defended the Bill.
Mr. Secretary PEEL, referring to what had
fallen from an Hon. Member on the subject of Man-
chester and Birmingham,. really could not help
smiling when he heard the Hon. 'Gentleman express
his fears on that subject ; for the extension of the
system to Manchester and those towns was of all
others the thing of which he was most desirous.
On the motion that the petition be brought up,
Mr. BRIG in repeated his objections to the Bill.
Mr, Alderman WAITLIMAN begged leave to
say one word on the suliject of the complaint that
the City of London was not included in the opera-
tion of the Bill. It ought to be recollected that the
City of London possessed a very peculiar juri,die-
tion,— was a county in it-elf :he thought, there-
fore? unless some very particular case of negligence
or mistnauagement Was made out, that it would be
unwise to disturb a system winch produced such
good results.
Mr. PEEL again expressed his opinion that

would be desirable to eXterd the system to the great
towns. Manchester, indeed, had at the present
moment a stipendiary Magistracy; and Glasgow, if
lie was twit misinformed, was placed under the same
eont ronl.
Mr. BROUGHAg moved for a Return of all
the Causes standing for Hearing or Judgment, when
the Great Seal W4S put into Commission in 1783;
and for an Account of the Number remaining at the
time of the Appointment of Lord Chancellor Thur-
low, together %vial a similar Rettne from May, 1791,
to February, 1792, when the Seal was also in Com-
mission. The Hon, and Learned Gent. having ob-
seived that he did not anticipate any objection to
this motion.
On its being read from;the Chair,
Mr. M. A. TAY LOR begged to know whether

•
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the Right Hon. Client., (Mr. Peel.)hacl.any objection
to postpone, until some other, day:, the discussion on
the Suits,of Equity-Bill ?
Mr. Secretary PEEL said, that if his Hon. Friend
had not put that question, it was his intention to
have stated in the course of the evening, that he
did not intend to press 4ie further consideration of
the Bill during the present Session. On Friday,
which was the next regular day for orders, the
House did not sit, and he could have therefore had
no alternative to postpone it until Monday, that day
week. In that week, however, the Members were
not in the habit of giving a very regular attendance,
unless the business to be transacted was of extra-
ordinary importance; and as he knew well that con•
siderable difference of opinion existed on these
questions—a difference which had made itself very
perceptible when a question connected with an ad-
ditional expenditure, on account of the administra-
tion of justice, had been before the House, during
the past week—he thought it would be better not
to press the discussion on the subject. .At the very
earliest period of the next Session it was the in-
tention of the Government to bring the Bill again
under the consideration of the House.
Mr. BROUGHAM expressed his entire satis-
faction in the course which the Right Hon. Gent.
had adopted with respect to the Bill.
Mr. M. A. TAYLOR begged the Right Hon.
Gentleman to bring forword his propositions at the
earliest possible period of the next Session, be-
cause lie was satisfied the state of the Court of
Chancery was ten-fold worse than when he first
originated the discussions respecting it. That state
amounted, indeed, to a plain denial of justice_ As
to the measure contained in the Bill before the
House, he must say, that if intended for effect, it
would produce no good whatever. While on the
subject he might add, that the state of the appeals
in the House of Lords was by no means creditable
to that jurisdiction.
Dr. LUSHINGTON expressed a hope that no-
thing would be -done without the fullest inquiry.
He was satisfied that the measure recommended by
the Noble Lord (Lord Lyndhurst) would have very
little effect unless as a portion of that general sys-
tem of reform which must take in a thorough revi-
sion of the laws connected with bankruptcy.
Mr. Secretary PEEL said, one of his objections—
the greatest, and that which induced him the must
readily to postpone the consideration of this Bill to
the next Session—was, that the other measures of
which it formed a part were not sufficiently matured
to enable the Noble Lord to submit them to the
House in a printed form at the present period.
The returns were then ordered.
SLAVE EVIDENCE.
Mr. F. BUXTON having moved for an account
of the Increase of the whole Slave Population of the
West Indies since the year 1825, distinguishing the
males from the females,
Mr. BROUGHAM gave notice of his intention,
in an early period of the next Session, to bring for-
ward a measure for the purpose of making the Evi-
dence of Slaves admissible in all cases, subject only
to those objections to which other evidence is always
liable. While he gave this notice, he begged at the
same time to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman oppo-
site (Sir G. Murray), whether his Majesty's Go-
vernment had or had it not in contemplation to
originate themselves some measure on the same im•
portant subject ?
Sir GEORGE MURRAY concurred with the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman in the importance of
the subject ; and also in his views of the propriety
of and safety of making Slave Evidence admissible
in the form which he mentioned. He was not,
ho wever, prepared on the part of his Majesty's Go.
verument, to bring forward any measure for that

purpose.
Mr. BERNAL wished to know whether it was
the intention of his Majesty's Government to pro-
pose any other measures respecting the administra-
tion of justice in the Colonies, except that which
related to the admishion of slave evidence ?
Sir G. MURRAY replied, that a general mea-
sure had been for some time in the contemplation
of his Majesty's Government, fer the improvement
of the administration of justice in the Colonies, of
which the subject alluded to by the Hon. Gentle-
man would form a part.
Mr. HUSKISSON expressed his gratification at
what had fallen from his Right Hon. Friend, and
his conviction that the general measure which would
be proposed by Government for revision of the
Courts of Justice in the Colonies would be of a
satisfactory nature. There was one subject on
which he wished to say a few words. By the pre-
sent colonial laws, Roman Catholics were incapable
of holding any situations either under the Govern-
ment Gr in the Legislatures of the Colonies. He
hoped, however, that recommendations would be
sent out by his Majesty's Government to the dif-
ferent local authorities of the Colonies, strongly
urging them to follow the wise and liberal example
of the mother country on the subject; and he
trusted, that when Parliament met again, his Right
Hon. Friend would be enabled to make a satisfac-
tory communication to the Douse with respect to
the result of those recommendations.
Sir J. MACKINTOSH quite agreed in the opi-
nion, that the measure for the admission of slave
evidence in the Courts of Justice in the West In-
dies, would most conveniently and advantageously
form a part of the general plan for the amelioration
of the various judicatures of the Colonies.
Sir R. WILSON expressed his hope that the
Commission of Inquiry into the State of the Judi-
cature in the Colonies would be renewed.
Lord NUGENT also urged the great importance
of continuing that Commission for another year.
Adverting to a statement made by the Right Hon.
Gentleman about three weeks ago, that he hoped
to present another Report from the Commission in
the course of the present Session, he wished to
know whether or not the Right Hon. Gentleman
still entertained that expectation ?
Sir G. MURRAY was quite aware of the im-
portance and value of the labours of the Commission
to which his Gallant Friend and 'the Noble Lord
had alluded. At the same time, looking at the
heavy expence attendant on such a Commission, he
was certainly desirous to terminate the Commis-
' sion as soon as the Commissioners could close their
labours. _ _ _

Mr. BROUGHAM agreed with all who had
spoken on the subject, that it was most desirable
that the admissibility of slave evidence in Courts of
Justice should form a part of the general plan for
reforming the colonial judicature. Yet, thinking
that the admission of slave evidence would, of itself,
be one of the most important steps that could be
taken to improve the condition of the slaves, and to
lead to their ultimate, and not very prolonged eman-
cipation whenever they might become tit to receive
such a benefit, he should certainly have supported
it, if it had not been so connected.
The Motion was then agreed to.
Mr. F. BUXTON gave notice, that on the 2d of
June, he would move for the production of the
Order in Council respecting the admission of the
evidence of slaves.
Mr. BROUGHAM presented a petition from
Joseph Ashley, a chemist, at Edinburgh, praying for
the revision of the Patent Laws,
Mr. GREEN presented a petition from the im-
porters of wines in the ports of Lancashire, subject
to butlerage o❑ wine; which, after a few words
from the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, was
ordered to lie on the table.
BARONS OF THE EXCHEQUER.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
having moved the order of the day for the House to
resolve itself into a Committee of Supply,
Mr. HUME adverted to a rumour in Edinburgh,
that it was in the contemplation of Government to
superannuate one of the Barons of the Exchequer,
who was as capable of discharging his judicial
functions as any Judge in England or Scotlamj, and
theieby to entail on the country an unnecessary ex-
pence, and witheti to know whether any such pro-
ceeding was really intended ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER

•
replied, that he had not heard any- intimatioa
kind. • •:•

USURY LAWS.
• •
The order of the day for the House to resolve
- • reiolf

self into -a Committee of Supply having been
The CHANCELLOR of the. EXCHE.Qtjr"
moved, that the House should on Wednesday
resoloe:,
itself into the said Committee. •
Mr. P. THOMSON was exceedingly arixiotts'W
relieve at least u portion of the community frotn ate
operation of laws which pressed upon them nabs:,,.heavily, and this was a disposition in which he be'
off
lieved the great majority of the House concurred...
However, it was too late to do any thing in tte.'
present Session ; and all he was now anxious
was to hear from the Right Hon. Gentleman, ties
at the earliest possible period of the next Session.ii':;
would either introduce some measure himself, or be''
prepared to assent to the introduction of setse"
measure by another.
After a few words from the CHANCELLOR O.f
Emxr.c
HH EEQAUTEHR, colriur:
the
T tso
motion was
agreed greeltintVol.l4tit
.1111.
SUGAR DUTIES' BILL.
On the motion of the CHANCELLOR. of
EXCHEQUER, the House resolved itself
Committee on the Sugar Duties' Bill. • -
The House having accordingly resolved itself int" •
att
to
Ceispoißrrmo.ipgmcohis.ttetoeHaeßo,
reduction
dNuGTc
et
nrootn: eot,ynei nthrpeetgrirdseuttitai.tneocs
to be labouring under severe IndispOeste, appeacp;
in:i
together with the position in which he stood,-
quently rendered him nearly inaudible. As welt',
we could collect what fell from him he begsaa'
adverting to the manner in which the subject 7 .
„.1
been treated in the House during the last Seseti,
and by maintaining that a general impression at t'
time existed that some reduction in the dull
sugar would be made in the present Session. 17i:
variety of circumstances rendered it highly imports's'
that such should be the case; although into the ces,
sideration of many of those circumstances hevrque,.
not then enter, as in his opinion they might be PO:
advantageously reserved for a future opportusLAKl.:-
The interests of both the East and the West IA
were HO doubt deeply involved in the decisiotio
this question. But the simple grounds on which he:
rested his proposition to reduce the duty, was cis,
interest of the great body of the people of tide
try. With respect to them, the question must 10 ;r4;
garded in a twofold point of view ; first,with
to its effects on the consumption of sugar; and seceav,ke,''
with reference to its effects on the revenue; :`",-)i
existing duty of course greatly enhanced the Price. of,
sugar to the consumer, and narrowed the ritgliepo
the consumption ; both of which were great
On Wrest India sugar, the price of which'
thirty shillings the cwt., the duty was sesee'7o-
twenty shillings. In the attempts to preser".
_hater
13
monopoly of sugar to the planters, and to 111:"..ed'
between the East and the West Indies, it
to be forgotten that there was a third party
interested in the question—namely, the puttnP--.01;
The natural consequence, however, of the eicestol
efforts to preserve the monopoly in questioot -111:
been to enable the foreign dealer to interpose no,
advantage to himself ; and from that morneet,r4
t
monopoly ceased, and the price of the foreign 7;4
ket governed the price of the colonial produce,
deviation from sound principles always led te
other. The imposition' of large duties led triv"
something like a bounty. He would abstain ii;Oto
entering into unnecessary details on -this intl.; 10
subject ; but he was not going
,too far. wheivo
stated that the difference in the price of 'sugarin 4
Colonies and in the home Market was the egeir,let-
some proceeding tantamount to bountyi' Th
Was to enhance the evil which he • wairdesiroiliti...
remove. It was, he conceived, perfectlielellOro-0
a reduction of price must increase the Consualtio
of the article; although •some persons- P"Tioti
terous enough to hold the lioctrineithaF,:eheuP
of price did not increase the amount of cothsun'P"
The slow progress- of the consumption of: gegal;lo
this country was a proof of theirdurious Ofect orsto,
duty. 111 1802, the quantity of sugar imptiolettL;ro..
2,473,000 cwt. In 1823, the quantity of Sugs'''',,t
ported was 3,234,000 cwt. Looking,: however,
the great increase of population in the United.l‘l2,
dom during the period to which he had alluded
an increase from fifteen to twenty-foer 01i107,,bt
the difference in the importation of sufter4ner
to have been much greater. And much t
it no doubt would have' been; had. Reiss
been for the duty. What had been' the case,
respect to coffee? In 1825, the duty had beol:x.d.-:
duced on coffee. In 1824, the consumption ot 05;(1
was 8,455,0001b5.; in 1827, the 'consumpti°°,.... re
increased to 17,000,0001b5.2 The effect -of t'jti
duction of duty on a great number of articles'
been to increase the consumption of these artieletot
so great a degree, that the revenue had not 01;00
been injured, but, on the contrary, benefittedi
had been particularly the case in the instance 01;
reduction of the duties on foreign wine. tar
creased consumption of French wines in' Pa':4lo,
had greatly benefitted the revenue, and-te,'"
.othei
show the policy of a reduction of duties 'ugint j,"
articles. In the year 1820, the arnoullt °,f "U'itittf
ceived on French wines imported into tiPsivve°-t
was 65,0001.; in 1824 the duty was 64,4)wv-'o.tl
1825 there was no material alteration in the tarriei
but in the year 1826 (which was after the
had been lowered) the amount was 119,0001.;•1117.00
1827 the duty received was also 119,000 h.
she
reduction of the duty on Portuguese wines he
led to an increased consumption. In 1823 the
on Portuguese wines amounted to 433,00( W
fr'
1824 about 490,0004; in 1826 (after then aa4
tions), the amount ofrevenue received was 627tv:intio?i
and in 1827, 728,0001. This increase -of revrwer
it was clear then, had resulted from a reduct'°oo,
co
duty, which had produced an increased osaniPol-01
This result had not only followed in the instaecbrea
the French and Portuguese wines, but had ais°:bigil
the 'case in ail other sorts of wine. There•ha%ol
a great increase in the quantity of Rhenisil,A,"tial
imported, as well as in Spanish wineu, irciite(
year 1823, the duty paid on all wines of tba.e;.44:07;
class imported amounted to 216,0001.; in l'"',o-.01
230,0001.; in 1825 (the year of the -redact:lV
the duties), to 345,0001.; in 1826, to 343;inder;
arid in 1827, to 410,000/. He could'h° 7-001"
stand, therefore, en what grounds any toie;o4-gid
assert that the reduction of the duties -o)...dit •IF
would not also tend to an increased ccinsumeA.the
that article. Tea and wine were luxuries Whi
ef-
great body of the people could not enjoy,.
__l‘47l
were far above their means of purchase;
to a very great extent might almost be cov-eoel
as one of the necessaries of life to the EngliettetOr
(Hear.)—The consumption of sugar by W 1404,11
annually, might, on the average, be calcti, bow
about 221bs. But in Ireland, where the gres","allee;
of the people did not consider these artickli,lo,•l7lo
cessaries, the consumption was not above '7' 401'
annum for each person. The produceof t,;,betbatji
on sugar at various times tended to show .401
was an article the demand for which watro
affected by the variation of prices. He had
that in 1827 (although the previous year'N!4erof
very good year) the consumption we? Qti'ff:iiieje
but in the Tear 1828 (although the fireo,Jderi
was not very productive) there had beetre".iiiril
consumption. He would refer the House for .0010
of the statement he had just made to a letler
in the report of the Finance '
ir
writer of it, Mr. Irving, was a gentleman' uses,
peculiarly peculiarly well versed in all subjects C°l.olo'el
with the West Indies and the sugar tcres:‘,
This letter tended to show that the- fell
et
consumption of sugar greatly depended 00. ago
.I'ol
tion of prices. Prices advanced 15 'or dati°lo
cent. a short time ago, and it then became itb 'od
that the purchasers decreased considerably v:O3, 'de
increased 'nice of this article. When this cea`bali.
prices fell again, there was an increased 100.'„oc
This often appeared to occur, and might snolii;bio
taken as a general rule. He (Mr. Grant),-e;4o,'„eti
see what answer could be made in opposit'°.,iorya
case. He had heard several persons whom
that the demand for luxuries-would no

incref4ed braz fall in the prices, but, on the contrary,
be greatly diminished. Now he would without hesi-
tinierr say; that such persons spoke in ignorance of
thereat ci •
rcumstances of the case, and contrary to the
fact.--'llear.)—rit had been said, that the previous
redactiMirif 'duty- had. reduced . the price of sugar
three farthings upound- This had been considered.
of but little consivience ; he (Mr. Grant) however,
wasof ct very.difft!rent opinion, and viewed even that.
reduction as a matter of importance.—(Hear.)—lt
Was of importance to. the poor man, whose means
were
brit limited, that he. should procure those arti-
-I;lecwinc It were ahnost..necessaries to him, at the
'?West possible rate. To the father of a family, who
did not increase his means by pounds or shillings, but
ttZ. Pence, it was a subject of importance that even
9Parently trifling saving should be made,—
ti`"ear.)---Were they to forget, that in proportion
a reduction took place, the opportunity of pur-
"asing was afforded to an increased number of per-
'"B, and ,that the. lower classes could buy those
artistes, Which before were placed far above their
.means ? As things got cheaper, although only in a
'idegree, opportunity was afforded to—if 'he
.Llht make u•e:of the expression—a lower strata of
ipeople. ptirchase, and new markets were thus
reated.—(
great body Hear, hear.)—The objection, that the
theconsii .of. the, people had no wish to indulge in
it mption of luxuries, wars not true, nor would
all aPPIY in this case, He (Mr. Grant) knew that
-"me:Persons objected, that the amount of duty in-
creased on an . article of general consumption, like
sugar, with.the:higher rate of duty, and especially
as st,l,ar, could not be smuggled. There was also
ahtgleion-en the part of the Government against
w`
an.Y edueti"..a
the duty, lea it should be attended
th a tlintinution of revenue. But lie ( Mr. Grant)
ieontended, that .even if there should be a small fall-
ngaff In the. amount of revenue, the advantages
wlliebwouldistillresult would more than counter-
b...,ai anee that in the. increased comforts of the people.
gut there was,no.reason to expect any such diminu-
jai! in the amount of revenue. He hoped that a
reeling did notreiist in the House, that every thing
I,*.as to be viewed merely as a matter of revenue.—
ta
tstate of .our finances was not so bad as to lead
-the
refusal to repeal any tax, however pernicious
.It, might 'be in its operation, because it might affect
1:k: income of the country. Such a course would
Policy' -only be inconsistent with a sound course of
sTY, and such as an enlightened Government
Quid not .pursue--7-(Hear, hear)—but a line of
P,lneeeding which.he was sure his Right Hon. Friend
(the
„,Chancellor, of the Exchequer) would not follow.
d " '..e slaty of Government not to refuse to
_roe nee a tax.lest•the revenue might be affected, but
ronsitier:Wbether any reduction could be made,
at theAisrae time that it could not materially
erect the revenue., would add greatly to the comforts
of the people,r-(llear.)—The Finance Committee
ctehe_ammended the reduction of various duties ;
„ hild viewed them not merely as matters of re-
'entre but
as they affected the comforts of the great
b°lly n'f the people.---(Hear, hear.)—This was the
Pont.i of view in which both the Government and
itai!people would shortly consider their finance clues-
• He was, however, certain that the reduction
Inese duties would not be attended with a per-
!manent diminution of revenue—(Hear)—but any de-
slew.
be '" indeed, any should take place) would
only
-fora very short time.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
e The Finance .Report last year showed that the
luction.of.duties had, in almost all instances, been
attendedd
ew_j.withan increased consumption, and parti-
-ny in, excise articles., In the last five years, this
treduction had increased the consumption in so great
tegree, that it..had.More than compensated for even
tillealunount oteltity, • He had no doubt but that if
Ivb.titY on sugar. were -lowered, that the demand
inerease.SQ,raiijdfy, that the whole. of the
rPc6thlieettiothe.West Indian colonies
.Would
need.. in thisto..„,...y.
He estimated the quantity
W est. Lf .
_.Sugar -imported into this country at
1111°Quir0 Of cwta.'; the qUantity of sugar from the
"tsits,.'at -,200,000 cwts.;. and of -East India
pk.-at451)0,900-cwts...He certainly did not think
-14 r there woUldte any great increase in the produc-
tion of
itg r, ,either ,iu the_ West India islands. or
`"I 'alattritiosi , But ,ehf.ro.would be a very great
terease consumption of East India sugar.
Le duty,:at present paid on sugars was about
",0061.,,, and which might greatly be increased.
Ire-were:very few, persons in this country at pre-
-ot.wh- did not use sugar, and he thought that
not,n,aking a calculation beyond the truth,
.„'reen he.assumed -that the average consumption of
',.'agar might be increased to lilb. per week for every
'{agar
of five persons by a reduction of duty. This
al; °at would produce an increase of 3,500,000 cwts.
present consumption. Another subject for
;°/;Lsideration was the distressed situation of the
nt India interests. The House had frequently
're
epetitiened, and . called upon by that body to
duce Ile duttes on. sugar,., which would so much.
h that important interest, and at the same
helvas sure, not greatly diminish the revenue.
steer, h-ear,)-7.The West India interest was
71: most unjustly by the present, state of the
tli abe markets, which were formerly open
the
:,,wde of their produce were now closed by
_thP,ltnianof the law, .1112:1 he alluded particularly to
laws erican market. Indeed very many
Indiaof
_the-
-1 ni 'l4fecting, the trade With the West Uo
14°4-i" itYPreunjust, impolitic, and absurd. It had
trriYear been proposed to .put on an equality the
tilit;let3 on East and West India sugar, by reducing
elnriter duty, He did not think that this would
nPt tIY affect the consumption of that article. Hee
ti me' same' time could not see why such distinias
144.taid :exist. The importation of West Ind
,as..yes•• r amounted to 3,960,000 cwts., and
nn,Al,rtlP,, °nation of, East India sugar to one million;
tlC„,Z,Ilie 'Rost of production of the latter was so
4n.'„..,7:448 than the former there would not be
41-reat. a. difference in the amount of imports,
W:ith,..S4ntling the difference in the duty. By
systemeqt the foreign Slave Trade was
148°
the
4lt,tit`gree supported. For instance, amount
'l3, tuft.,. Exports to the Brazils, last year, was
'"001.,, and our Imports only 1,800,0001.,
'a difference of 2,000,0004 This difference
.I:l!Ceived. in Brazilian sugar, which was taken to
..f4Teu rain the Continent of Europe, and there sold
WCl,ltroduce of those countries. Thus did our
itet.sysLem operate to encourage the abominable
il6l:detestable. Slave Trade, which we had made
Viraertions to put a stop to. He conjured his
t. Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exche-
nit4tto.consitler this question not merely us it might
the finances of the present moment, but as a
~1),1:14:re which would be attended with the most
• :.por'egeiel .consequences to so many and such im-
tent interests. He (Mr. Grant), however, en-
ittsPth'ed no doubt but that this reduction, if it were
ill
lbNd • to, would p u
rodce such an increased con-
erei,,,„Ptei", that it would be followed by a great in-
. Avlia of the revenue. These were the grounds
led him to propose the Resolution which
'*t"Lelll in his hand, and which he trusted would meet
'h, he sanction of the House. The Right Hon.
:4'..eoncluded by -moving, " That it was the opi-
°J.:this:Committee that the duty on all suers
14.trted into this, country from the British Colonies
• .th 'West iiidies be reduced to 20s. per cwt.; that
eZdutY on East India sugar be reduced tp 255. per
f
M.; -and on all foreign sugars, not the produce o
.4141 h Colonies, to 28s. per cwt.
said..l CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
po'`Hat.the proposed reduction would fall into the
enntietsof. the producer, and not into that of the.
in urner- He denied that any cheapness of price
...
At "gar would occasion an increased consumption,,tild
110,1,4 article was so generally in use, that it co
tion-hue !Mich more so. The reduction in the duties
Aiti"; wine and coffee formed no analogy. Those
nndc'es were consumed chiefly by the higher orders,
infer reduction of duty increased their use amongst
classes. 'No such argument could be used
Alt*adresPeet to sugar, for it was in general use
dnt. Y. In 1815 the price of sugar, including all
tund liinety-one Shillings arid tenpence per
'Piglitr''' ~,Weigbt. •At present the price was fifty-
redo and eightpence; and this immense
as aPPeated bv the returns, did not °ma-
.

lion any increased consumption. He calculated that
the proposed reduetion.: of seven shillings- would
increase the t..ll,.uniption by only. five hundred
thousand buiaired weight per annurri, wltielt would
be no sensible relief to the grbuter, whil-t the 'pro-
posed reduction of duty would be a serious diminu-
tion of the revent:e.. . • _

Mr. BRIGHT maintained that the West India
:nterest had been long oVer-taxed, and that it ought
to be relieved. The taxation between the West and

East India interest was disproportioned. The Go-
vernment had said that it would relieve the West

India interest from its weight of taxation, when the
pressure of the war was reduced ; but since the
termination of hostilities, other interests had been

relieved horn taxes, whilst the West India pro-
prietors had not received any corresponding relief.
Sugar would become a necessary of life, if the high
rate of dutieS did not enhance its price. He
complained that sugars were not altowed to be
used in the distilleries, the British grower having a
monopoly of that market. It was not fair to call
upon one party to give up its monopoly, unless the
other gave up its corresponding advantage. He
conceived that the slave trade ought to be put down.
It was a serious injury to the West India interests,
and would injure the country in the event of a war.
He agreed with the Right Hon. Gent. that a rednc-.
tion of the West India- Sugar Duty ought to take
place, but he did not agree with the scale proposed
for the duties.

Mr. W. WHITMORE supported the proposi-
tion of the Right Hon: Gentleman, believing that
not only with regard to the commerce of this coun-
try, but with respect -to the West India colonists
themselves, it would be productive of great benefit.
The commerce of England would be extended by
permitting the sugars of tropical countries to be
brought here in exchange for our manufactures. It
might, and certainly would, be extended in Ireland.
The Right Hon. Gentleman had made a calculation
shewing that the consumption of sugar in this
country amounted to twenty-two millions of pounds,
and that in Ireland it did not exceed three millions.
Now if, as he hoped to see, a stimulus were given
to the manufacturing energies of Ireland, and if
sugar could be freely introduced there in payment
for those manufactures, the comforts of her people
would be increased, and the Government must de-
rive immense advantages from the same source.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer had objected to

the proposition, on the ground that it would take
away a sum of 560,0001. from the revenue, a sum
which he stated the Government could not now
afford to give up, as they required the surplus now
existing for the purposes he had on a previous occa-
sion stated to the House. He (Mr. Whitmore) did
not agree with that argument, for he was persuaded
that one of the most useful purposes to which the
surplus could be applied was the reduction of duty
on such a necessary article of life.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. BERNAL agreed in part with the proposi-
tion of his Right Hon. Friend—namely, so far as
related to the reduction of the duty on West India
sugar; but he did not think the proposal ought to
be acceded to with respect to East India and fo-
reign sugar ; for, in his opinion, it gent to reduce
the proportion too much in their favour. He was
not opposed to the introduction of a greater degree
of freedom in the Sugar Trade, but that alteration
must be accompanied with others, and must be un-
dertaken and executed gradually. The connection
between this country was old and intimate, and it
could not be altered suddenly. Confidence must
first be created, and opportunity afforded to West
India Proprietors to disengage themselves from
those pecuniary obligations existing between some
of them and merchants of this country. Besides,

this was a question that could not be decided by
itself; and he did not think it ought to be decided
now, when the general question had yet to come
under the consideration of the House. They had
the question of the renewal of the East India Com-
pany's Charter to consider ; and this particular
question ought to be considered with reference to
that, and not by itself. It -,hould be viewed with
relation, not only to fiscal and commercial, but
to political Considerations. .
Mr. TRANT supported the. motion. .
Mr. K. DOUGLAS thought the duty 'was a war
duty, and ought to be redueed.
Mr. HUSKISSON agreed with the Chancellor
of the -Exchequer, that whenever they came to the
settling of the sugar duties, they ought to look to
other interests which were bound up with that ques-
tion. They ought not to consider solely the West
Indies, but the East Indies, the interests of com-
merce, the interests of our navigation, and that inte-
rest which too often was lost sight of in discussions
of this nature, namely, the interest of the people.—
(Hear, hear.)--He quite agreed with the Hon.
Member for Rochester, that by the revision of the
whole question, we might pLonote and secure all
these interests; and he, for one, felt so strongly the
claims of the West-India Colonists, on account of
their long continuance, their importance in a pecu-
niary, in a maritime, and in a commercial point of
view—he felt, he said, their claims so strongly in
every way, that if ail otl.er interests could lie more
or less promoted, he should be sorry to promote
them by the sacrifice of the West India Colonists.
He was, however, satisfied, that if the House were
to adopt the proposition of his Right Hon. Friend,
they would consult the advancement of all these in-
terests without injury to any one of them. His
Right Hon. Friend (the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer) thought that all these interests might be pro-
moted by the general consideration of this gm s-
tion ; he himself had only required u general con-
sideration of the question ; and when, two years
ago, the Hon. Member for Bridgnorth had brought
forward a proposition for the redaction of the duty,
he (Mr. Huskisson) had said that the whole sub-
ject ought to be discussed together, and as far as he
could, in the situation he then held, he bad pledged
himself to bring the whole question under the con-
sideration of the House. The Right Hon. Gent.,
with reference to this subject, had opposed the pro-
posal of his Right Hon. Friend, on the ground that
the interests of the revenue would not allow of its
being carried into effect. His argument would have
much force if his premises could he admitted; but
those premises were, that as there had always been
a revenue of five millions derived from the duty on
sugar, the same amount of revenue ought still to be
obtained from the smile source. He denied that
such a conclusion ought to follow from such a fact ;
but even allowing the conclusion to be legitimate, it
did not follow that an increased consumption,
though with a reduced duty, would not give the
same amount of revenue. If the argument could
lie applied to sugar, it could in like manner, be ap-
plied to other exeiseable commodities ; and then,
because tobacco had given the revenue three mil-
lions, and malt and beer had given it eight millions,
the same duty ought to be 'continued, that the same
revenue might still be derived from them. Again
lie begged to protest against such a conclusion in con-
sidering the reduction of the duty to which the Right
Hon. Gentleman had objected, on the score that it
was not likely the reduction of duty would be fol-
lowed by increased consumption, the Right ,Hon.
Gentleman ought to recollect that when the former
reduction to which be had alluded was made, prices
were much higher than at present. The prices of
all articles must be taken into consideration ; and he
believed, if a reduction of duty to the amount of 7s.
took place when sugar was 545. per cwt., the in-
crease of consumption would be much greater than
when the price was upwards of 90s. But in con•
sidering a question like this, it was necessary to look
to all the g-eat interests likely to be benefitted by it,
as well as the revenue. It was the duty of Parlia-
ment to promote those measures by which the public
would be much benefitted, though the revenue might
in the first instance suffer a little. The Hon.
Member for Bristol had referred to the Brazils
sugar. Did that Hon. Member know that he had
presented a petition in the early part of the evening
from parties who had last year exported from the
Brazils, in British ships, 70,000 tons of sugar in
payment for British manuf,ctures,.and of that 7t),000
tons only 5,000 came into this country ? The other
65,000 tons were carried to foreign countries; and

he maintained, if the law were altered, all this sugar
Would • have- been brought-to thia."Country, would
have been warehoused, and :perhaps
,refined here,, in-
creasing our trade, and finding profitable employment
for our • capital. -But for the, laW all that sugar
Would find its way to this country, and, but for
the laW, he believed, that we should refine sugar to,
all Europe. Owiliz to the ch,apries,; of fuel awl
the many con%eniences possessed by this country,
the merchants would send, sugar here from every

place,. At present, he believed, many of the sugar
refineries on the Continent were carried on by Bri-
tish capital. To consider a question-like this only
in its immediate relation .to revenue was taking a
very short-sighted view of it.. .The few thousand
pounds the revenue might .lose in the first instance
would soon be made up by the increased consump-
tion and increased traffic occasioned by gig ing

greater freedom to the trade. The navigation of
the empire was important, and ought to be taken
into consideration as well as the other interests that

would be henefited by the reduction of duty. It I
was well known how much the consumpt►on of
coffee had increased by its cheapness, and he did not
see why the same effect should not take place as to
sugar. Gentlemen did not know how much the
poor people studied how they might lay out their
pence to the greatest advantage, and obtain, for any
thing they had to spare, the greatest quantity of
enjoyment. It was very possible that two-thirds of
the coffee drunk by the lower classes was drunk
without sugar; and if the sugar were cheap, it was
probable they would use it in proportion to coffee..
The growers of wool were complaining of the low-
ness of the price of wool, but it was well known that
the cheapness of clothing brought it more into use.
As cotton had become cheap, it had been substituted
for woollen. As spirits had been manufactured cheap,
they had been substituted for beer. At present, he
had been informed that the people in Leeds, and
other places, the seat, of the woollen manufac-
ture, had begun to wear cotton, because it was
cheap. The same fact would undoubtedly hold
good with sugar. The Hon. Members in the West
India interest complained of the monopoly enjoyed
by this country against the West Indies ; but there
was, he believed, no commodities except fish, or salt
provisions, which might not be imported into the
West India Islands from any part- of the world.
These exceptions could not be a sufficient grievance
to constitute a ground of complaint. The Hon.
Member for Rochester had spoken of the compara-
tive high price of the herrings carried from
this country. Was he, then, not aware
that the herrings of the North of Europe,
which he said were so cheap, were, in fact, a
great part of them cured in Scotland, and exported
to the North of Europe ? If we encouraged the
East India sugar-growers by a bounty of ten shil-
lings the hundred weight, the West India proprie-
tors might have some ground of complaint, and
might require that some alteration should be made
in their favour. The scale of duties proposed by
his Right Hon. Friend would not affect disadvan-
tageously the West Indies, and it would be an act
of justice to the East Indies. At present there was
little or none of the East India sugar consumed i►►
Europe, and there was no reason to apprehend it
would displace the West India sugar in our market.
The apprehensions of that were a mere bugbear,
while allowing it to come into the market
would give a new life to trade, and a new spirit
to industry. The opening of the ports to the West
India trade had not, he admitted, extended that
trade much, but that was because the West Indians
could find no better market for their commodities

than this country. The merchants of Demerara,
who, by the capitulation, were authorised to bring
sugar to this country, did so; they selected this
country in preference to any other market, because
they found longer credits, and better prices. Un-
fortunately the West Indians were generally under
obligations to their consignees in this country, -and
any sudden change in their relations to them could
not be expected, but the law ought to do what it
could to relieve the trade. On the whole, he was
satisfied that if they did not consider the subject
this session, that the time was not far distant when

what was- due to our great interests, to our com•
merce, our navigation, and our industry, and .what
was. due to the colonies themselves, would oblige
us, and he hoped, if with some diminution in the
revenue in the first instance, yet with• an improve-
ment in it at no .distant date, to make a judicious al-
teration and a considerable abatement in the sugar
duties. It had been promised year after year, and he
was sorry to find his Right Hon. Friend (the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer) think he could not make the
alteration this Session of Parliament, because he ap-
prehended a diminution of the revenue. He en-
treated the House and the Government not to post-
pone indefinitely this important improvement. Some-
thing had been said about the West Indians being
compelled to take English manufactures. Why all
the world were compelled to take English manufac-
tures. The cheapness of these commodities was
the source of the compulsion ; but surely there was
no grievance in this. Something also had been said
of the monopoly enjoyed by the English landlords,
and the prohibition to distil from sugar; but the
fact was, that spirits could not be made from sugar
so cheap as from barley. We were obliged to distil
from sugar at a period of distress; but even then it
was done at a loss. It was irrational, therefore, to
complain of the monopoly of the landowners. On
the whole, he thought that the alteration might now
be made, and he meant to support the proposition
of his Right Hon. Friend.
Mr. BRIGHT; the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHE-
QUER, and Mr. Husxtssos mutually explained.
Sir ROBERT FARQUHAR would net enter
further into the question before the Committee, than
to observe, that the reduction of the duty on sugar
had been promised to the Mauritius as well as to
the other Colonies.

-----
Mr. A. BARING was disposed to equalize the

duties on East and West India Sugar, but it must
be remembered that sugar was brought from the East
Indies in a more refined state than from the West
Indies, and a nominal equalization of the duties
might be unjust to the West India sugar. Taking
this circumstance into consideration, he thought the
equalization of the duties would be beneficial. But
while he was ready to equalize the duties, he was
•not prepared to vote for a reduction of duty. He
thought that under the present circumstances of the
country, we could not spare any revenue, and he,
therefore, thought that the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer had exercised a sound discretion in refusing
to make the experiment this year. It was incum-
bent on those who proposed this diminution of the
revenue to show how it could be replaced ; and as
he did not think this had beet► done, he could not
vote for the proposition of the Right Hon. Gent.
After a few words from Mr. F. Buxton, Sir R.
Farquhar, Mr. Huskisson, Mr. C. Grant, and the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Committee di-
vided—

For Mr. C. Grant's Mexion 6O
Against it 9B
Majority SS
On our re-entrance Sir A. GRANT was bring-
ing up the Report, and it was ordered to be received
to-morrow.