The Sun.
London, England, 1829-03-07 00:00:00

soeiation from the people of Ireland (hear, hear, heat),—
it would he idle to pretend to say that the Association
• was extrinsic tea the country, when, in fact, it was super-
iudoced by the state of society which existed there. No
coercion could have put down that Aeteezietibh, for no co-
ercion could be exercised nee': a whole people who had de-
termined not to 'they. I cannot but observe, th it there is
' one eineuinetariee which is peculiar to the present stete of
;his subject—namely, that up to this moment it has been
• said that the Catholic Question, however interesting to a
few of the higher classes, was entirely uninteresting to the
people of Ireland. It is now clear that the people of Ire-
land have refuted that assertion, to Which I, for one, never
gave credit, and have fully identified themselves with the
neett That they have done so, I say, is proved by the
:oate of the country. The state of the eo'intry is palpable
and notorious ; but it is paid by some, that is not to be
.scribed to the Catholic Question. If it be true that the
• state of the country is such as has been described, and if
due effete be given to the infieenee of Government in pro,-
during such a state; and if also it he trite, that Govern-
ment is ireponsible for the happiness or misery of the go-
verned ; it :nest be true that we, by enacting and con-
tinuing the Penal Code, have been almost the curse of
Ireland ; anti so long as that portion of the Code shall con-
tinue to exist, so long will that curse trotain unchanged.
But, Sir, on what ground is it, ask, that we resist the
claims of the Cathelies ? The ground is, that their religion
is inetenpatible with loyalty to their Sovereign. Sir, that
ground the Leislature of this country has of itself alms
doned in the former Acts it has passed relating to this sub-
ject. Every ore of these Acts has declared that the Ca-
tholics are loyal subjects; and yet, in the fate of our own
declarations we say, that they are not entitled to what they
now ask, because we add, " You are not loyal to a
Protestant Sovereign," thus giving a pretext for the dis
turb owes we effect to deprecate, insulting their religious
feelings, and acting contrary to our own words. My lion.
Friend, the Member far Oxford—and in alluding to him I
wish to speak of him with every respect for hie private con-
duct and character—has said that We are not reduced to
the alternative teniceesion or coercion ; and what is the
argement he has need in support of that pos;den ? He has
"maid that an nn't d Adinin's ration, formed un the principle
of permanent exclusion, might obtain a strong measure of
ceersion ::gins: the ( lathol c.; aad that by encoureging the
Protestants of Ireland, and supporting them by the army
of England, the Catholics might be kept in awe. I wish,
before he bed expressed this opinion, that my Hon Friend
had followed the train of reasoning pursued by my Right
Hon. Friend last night. I will not impair that reasoning
by repeating it ; lett I will ask my Hon. Friend, in the first
;deep, Whether he supposes it possible even for an united
Administration, like that of which he has spoken, to ob-
tain a strong measure of coercion from this House of
Commons—and it should be recollected too that the mea-
sure must be much stronger than any we have yet seen ?
and if such measure could be obtained, I ask in what situa-
tion would Ireland—in what situation would tl.e Adminis-
tration—then be ? Ile would array the Protestants of
Ireland against the Catholics, and would support the former
by the army of England ; and this he would do to avoid
the necessary evils of a civil war. Whether he is of opinion,
that even if he gained such a position he could retain it, I
know not, but, in my opinion, he would never be able to
preserve his advantage. Whatever power the Protestants;of
Ireland niay possess, and whatever may be the skill and repu-
tation of the British army, I do not believe that five millions
could be kept in submission by such means alone. I be-
lieve the same spirit would operate which has always ope-
rated. He seems to think civil war is impossible. I refer
him to the events of thirty years ago. But I will not push
that argument : I will only say, whether he believes it or
not, I believe a civil war would be the consequence. If
the necessity at present existing is not strong enoegli, I
should be glad if he would tell me what degree of neces-
sity ought to compel the Administration of which be has
spoken to adopt measures of concession ? To what ex-
time would he drive the people? For my part, I avant
to guard the country from domestic convulsions—l want to
preserve it from that moat terrible evil, the triple curse of
war—a civil war, and a civil war of religion.—(Cheers.)
In the first piece, we are told that the necessity is not so
great, though the state of Ireland refutes the assertion—
next, we are told that the laws against the Catholics have
not produced the evil, though the nature of things in Ire-
land folly proves the reverse. It is not, however, the
question nowesegwhat has brought us into this situation,
but,-show we are to get out of it ? I answer, that I, for
one, would cast away ail feelings that might prevent me
from applying the best remedy to the evil. Nothing 311111
break the unity of my purposes—anothing shall prevent me
in my humble degree from doing what I can to ensure the
safety and gem ity of this realm. My Hon. Friend has
observed that the Duke of Wellington, who has been ac-
customed to military command, is not quite as alive to the
exercise of mouth force. And it is singular to obssrve what
he gives as a proof of the truth of his remark. The Duke,
who is aceustoreed to military command, in order to avoid
civil war, does not, when tL' &sin arrives, have recourse
to power and coercion, but to Leeline and conciliatory
measures; but my Hon. Friend, who is not used to miii-
tare command,—(cheers and laughter)—when that crisis
arrives, appeals to what he calls his system of moral force
—that is, he appeals to the bayonets of the Irish Pro-
teetants, supported by the bayonets of the British army.—
(Loud cheers.) But we are told, that this measure is an
actual violation of time Constitution. Sir, l think as highly
of the great blessings of the Constitution as any man, but,
as it was wisely observed by my flight Hon. Friend, the
Secretary of State for the Colonies, in his eloquent speech
of last night, " I look in the Revolution of 1688 for the
Constitution," but not, in that exclusively or solely ; and
the very words of the Bill of Rights recognise and justify
that observation, for the Revolution gave us no new rights
or liberties, but deserves our gratitude fur re-claiming and
re-eFserting what, in the words of the Bill of Rights itself,
ate called the ancient and indubitable rights of time people
of England.—(Cheers.) But it; instead of taking this
more wile, extended, and, I will add, just, view of the
Constitution, I were to look fir it in the assertion of po-
pular rights and in the popular compact made in 1688,
and should be content to rest the question on that narrow
ground, I ask any man to shrew me, that by the Bill of
Rights the Catholics are excluded from the blessings of the
Constitution ? The 13:11 of Rights recorded the grievances,
and stated the remedy to provide against their recurrence ;
and, to protect the Constitution, they secured the Crown
to a Protestant, and provided guards for preserving the
Protestantism of the Throne. These are the two grand
objects of the Bill of Rights. It is not by looking at
the Constitution with the lynx eyes of suspicion, to dis-
cover in every place an approbation of exclusion, that
vim will find that which the 13i11 of Rights cells the in-
diepensible article of the Constitution, namely, that the Eller -
dee of the people shall lie guaranteed by the exclusion from
time Throne of a Popish King. All else is machinery ; but
these two are the indiepensible and perpetual parts of the
Constitution. It is true, that the Bill of Rights says that
the King must take that declaration, and take those oaths
that are there mentioned ; and it refers to the Act of the
:30th of Charles the Second. But that is all the stronger
in favour of nay argument; for, providing for the safety of
the Constitution, .by the exclusion of a Popish King, was
in the contemplation of those who drew up the Bill ; and
if they thought that exclusion from Parliament was as in-
dispensible as that there should be a Protestant on the
Throne, I ask why they. did not provide for one as well as
for die other? it was just as easy, when they provided
that if the King became a Papist, or if he should marry a
Papist, be should be excluded from the Throne, and the
allegiance of his suhjecte should he. dissolved; I.say it was.
just 38 easy, amid almost inevitable, for thena to add, that if
Catholics were admitted to Parliament, that also should (his-
solve the allegiance of the eubjertseof the kingdom. But
remember, Sir, that this is comment on the Bill of Bights,
it is the modern construction of those who oppose these
ineeenren; and those who maintain this construction
tein also that this measure does dissolve the subjects' alle-
giance. I will not, for one, enter on that most perilous Of
all questions, namely, when the allegiance of subjects is dis-
solved. I will confine myself to the Bill of Rights, and-take
my opinion from that alone. I will not take it from the
gloss, from the modern terms, of those who call themselves
I.3runswickers, and who tell us our allegiance is dissolved, at
the same moment that they talk of themselves as the firmest
opponents of a divided allegiaace. I say distiectly, diet
no part of the Revolution proceeded on the principle that
exclusion was am indispensable part of the Constitution
and if such was not its principle, then I know not on what
ground it can be contended for. If it is not in the -Bill of
Rights, I ask in what other part of the British Constitu-
tion is that principle to he found ? All the great authorities,
from Bacon down to Burke, state that the Constitution is
not founded on principles of exclusion. If the: is the case,
on what ground is it that this Act of 30 Car. 11. was
passed ? I will not enter into the history of that period.
It is too well known to most of us. It was the most ca- '
lemitous and dangerous period of our hi.tory, and every
friend of his country must wish it blotted from the page of
its shoals, unless it be retained as a lesson for future times.
I rejoice in the commencement of the labours of this Ses-
ailife' I cannot express with what delight I listened to my
Right Bon. Friend when he developed his plan last night.
It was a great day fur this country—it was a great day for
Ireland—it was a great day fee the Right lion. Gentle-
man.—(Loud cheering.)—The speech he delivered was in
every respect worthy of the cause it supported, of the prin-
ciples it contained, and of the healing measures it pro-
Pouthied. I rejoice in the Bill, because it is a liberal act,

ione liberally—it is a generous act done in the spirit of
generosity—it is an act of justice done with the grace of
an act of favour. There may be one or two particulars
liable to some observation, but upon those I cannot consent
to rest ; I look at the main principle of the measure, and
there I see the hopes and anticipations of the most
sanguine calculator amply verified. A Noble Lord below
me (the Marquis of Chandos), early in the evening, de-
clared, that the securities proposed were good for nothing.
Let us recollect that the Spirit of the measure is, that it re-
lies tin its own essential merits—that it places no doubtful
dependence on collateral and artificial device?, but on the
main strength of the great principles it contain., honestly
applied to extinguish evils. Therefore, to tell me that the se-
curities in the Bill will be of little value, is only to magnify
the merits of a measure which will give full security without
torturing ingenuity for the invention of at best questionaNe
expedients. But we are told, that the measure leaves the
kingdom and the Constitution without protection; but it
has been often said, and it ought to be continually repeated,
because sincere alarms are prevalent in sonic querturs upon
the subject, that the securities now existing, and which will
continue to exist after the measure is passed, though not
immediately connected with it, are those on which our
Protestant Constitution may safely rest. As to security,
I find it in the very exertions made to resist the progress,
or rather the introduction of this Act; I find it in the con-
scientious zeal displayed throughout the country to protect
our national faith, and out Episcopal Church; I find it in
the Nobility of England—in the Gentry and Yeomanry of
England, whom I see united heart and hand to resist the
slightest encroachment of Catholicism.—l find it in our
Clergy, in whom I, for one, place confidence ; and I find
it in the excellence of our Establishment. It I could per-
suade myself with the lion. Member who spoke from un-
der the gallery, that this measure would lessen the security
of our Episcopal Eetablishmeut, instead of being eager to
support it I should be among the first to resist it. I think
the security of our-Church depends, not on such art-con-
structed barriers—but on the seundness of its doctrines, the
purity of its adherents, and the zeal, devotion, and energy
of its sacred functioneries. Above all, it depends upon
the confidence of the people, 1010 find in our Clergy
an example of those virtues which the Protestant re-
I gion is calculated to cherish, and, more than all, of
that vii tue whirl is the source and root of all ode ra—
charity. But do I look for securities in this county
only ? I look for them especially in Ireland it-elf, in
the now United Kingdom 'of Great Britain and Ireland
(Hear, hear.)—l look for it in the attachment of seven
millions of subjects After a long night of injustice and
oppression, they will find themselves restored to their just
place in society. They will be rescued by wise laws
from the excessive domination of the priesthood, of whom
our laws have hitherto made them by turns the tyrants
and the slaves. I look for it in the reasonable and proper
influence which will now he given to rank, property, the
aristocracy, and education in Ireland, and to the ameliorat-
ing spirit that will hereafter pervade all theses. Still more
do I look for security from the great mass of the people,
now for the first time open to the moral influence which is
agitating this country and every part of Europe. Nor
are these securities to be so lightly treated, when we re-
flect, that, after all, they are the very securities on which
the British Constitution rests. It is not founded upon the
principle of exclusion—it was not framed for the benefit
of one estate only, to the neglect or injury of others, but
for the purpose of obtaining the combined force of the
aggregate population ; and upon that combination of in-
terests mainly, the strength, spirit, essence, and perpetuity
of the Copstitution depend. I confess that lain sanguine as to
the results of this proposition, and I trust that my antici •
pations will riot be disappointed. I trust that the mea-
sure will he admitted into this House with that disposition
which has been abeady testified, and then I know how it
will be received in the country. I hope and believe it will
he received in 'relate! in the same spirit in which it has
been proposed by Government. If I had any influence
with that fine people, I should conjure them to reflect
what the boon is—how long it has been in vain solicited,
and in how generous, how noble a spirit this magnificent
wink of conciliation has been at length achieved. I hope
and believe, that the day when this fin shell obtain the
Royal assent will be for ever remembered in Ireland—that.
it will be remembered in ifeir solemn meetings, and in
their hours of conviviality, not as the signal of disunion and
discoid, but as the pledge and rallying-point of tranquillity
and obedience on the one hand, and of kindness and pro-
tection on the other.—(Much cheering.)
Mr. V. STUART commenced by referring to opinions
on this subject which had already been stated by him ; and
he then divided the speech of the Right Hon. Secretary
for the Home Department into three principal branches.
The first related to the greet measure itself ; the second to
the accompanying securities; and the third, to a subject, in
his opinion, totally foreign to the rest. With regard to
the measure of concession, it wile made so wisely, so largely,
and so liberally, that he could not withhold his most cor-
dial support to it. To the securities also no Catholic
c-mid object, and no reasonable Protestant ought to ob-
ject. The third branch haul no direct connection with the
question before the House; he had strong opinions upon
it, and when the Bill was brought forward, he should enter
his pi otest against it. He begged Nave, however, to as-
sure the House, that he should offer no factious opposition,
and that nothing on earth should induce him to take any
bop which would by possibility endanger the Bill.—
(Hear.)—After the occurrences of last year, and after the
special declaration of Ministcra that they could no longer
conduct the Government of the country unless the Catholic
Question were settled, it would have been unnecessary to
defend the course they had pursued, had it not been so un•
warrantably attacked by Hon. Gentlemen whose ancient
prejudices still induce them to oppose concession. Did
they expect that the system which depended only upon the
support c.f bru e force and bloodshed could be perpetuated ?
Did they iroogine that the prejudices of England
were for ever to be arrayed against the passions of
Ireland ? From the conflict these consequences only could
follow—aversion most hitter, antipathy most deep-rooted
and !oared most deadly ; England would strive to mamtein
her supetiority, and Ireland yearn to throw off her yoke
In the mean time, the aristocracy of Ireland would find
their country doomed to poverty, and their remainhig pro-
perty exposed to rapine and violence. The condition of
the island and its inhabitants in such an alternative might
be described in the language of a celebrated author, when
he said, "I set my foot on the boundary, and I said Free.
dam is tint here ; I saw naked hills, and weedy rat!ows ; I
saw still more infallible signs—for I beheld a downcast
visage, and a degraded form, indicating loathsome misery
and di spetate poverty ; I sew cities crowded with pestilen-
tial inhabitants ; I saw the contumely of wan, the ferocious
vindictiveness of popular rage, and I pronounced—this
people is not free." He thanked God that the time had
arrived when all parties begat to be sensible of their own
interests, and when the Irish Catholics would profit by the
discovery. He did not think there was any reason to be
ashamed of borrowing an argument from individual inte-
rests, when those interests are deeply identified with the
welfare of the nation. What, then, was the situatl'in
of the landed proprietors of Ireland? They were sur-
rounded by a Catholic population ; and, if something were
not done, and done quickly, they would have to depend
upon an anti•national force, directed by an English Anti-
Catholic Government, perpetuating the prevailing
distinctioo between the Protestant land-owners and the Ca-
tholic land occupiers of Ireland. Might not the Aristo-
cracy of Ireland, favourable to the Claims, appeal to their
Anti-Catholic opponents, and ask whether they would
be content to hold. their property by such a tenure ? To
fancy that such a stele of things as now existed could con-
tiue (proceeded, the Hon. Member) is to lull ourselves into
n't dream of security, from which we should only wake, to
see the consummation of our folly in the irretrievable ruin
'bf the empire.—(hear, hear.) Policy is scarcely less in-
terested in this change than humanity ; end if proof were
wanted of the truth of this position, we have only to look
at lime countries in which the exclusive system is esta-
blished. Greece has been driven to desperation by the
Turkish ascendancy, and in America, Virginia, and Ken- ,
nucky, where the free blacks form one-sixth of the
population, we all know the consequences of political ex-
elusion. The distinctions of green or orange, of white or
blank, can signify 'kinking; the principle of exclusion is
the same, and producers the same consequences ; wherever
it is acted upon, it is destructive of priente happiness and
national prosperity. What is said by the poet of charity
in general, is especially applicable to it in a political sense—
" It droppeth like the gentle dew from heaven," &c.
The question is simply this: shall we use this power to the
weakness of the State, or by giving the Catholics a share
in the blessings of the Constitution, shall we add to our
strength, and multiply our resources? Raving tried the
experiment of exclusion fur several hundred years, and
having notoriously experienced its failure, may it not be as
well, in accordance with the proposition of Ministers, to
adopt the centrary system, and to ascertain whether it will
not produce a contrary effect? But we are told that our
experience is to go for nought—that because our glorious
Constitution of 1683 excludes Roman Catholics that there-
fore they are to remain excluded. What, after all, consti-
tutes the security of the Church ? Does it consist of Acts
of Parliament, of public documents, of the to-Is of 1685 ?
No : it is derived from a population enthusiastically at.
tached to the doctrines and tenets of the Church of Eng-
land ; this is the only charter of the Established. Church.
Then bow, I should be g'ad to know, unless the admission
of Roman Catholics to civil power is to have the miracu-
lous effect of instantly converting the Protestants to Catho-

licity, can that event endanger the stability of the Church ?
The Church is safe as long, and no longer, than while the
majority of the peeple are followers and supporters of it.
Let the Protestants once change to Catholicity, to Presby-
terianism, or tp Mahometaniein, and infallibly, despite
the Constitution of 1688, the Pope will supplant the Arch-
bishop of Canterbury, or Synods or Mosques will supplant
t! e Church. Then what, after all, is there in the pro-
position which is to frighten Honourable Members from
their propriety as to induce them to believe that, by
attempting to regulate this subject, on the recom-
mendation of Ministers, we shall shake the well-founded
confidence now existing in the stability of the Church?
Our course is clear—let us not hesitate to pursue
it. Let us pass a law which will make the whole na-
: time, Catholic as well as Protestant, rally as oce man
round the Sovereign. Let us support the grand prin-
ciple of civil and religious liberty. Once acted upon, that
principle will tranquillize Ireland : place Great Britain
upon a firmer footing than she has ever yet held, even in
1 times of her brightest glory, and unite the inhabitants of
time whole Empire in peace, amity, and concord. With
these views, and with this feding, I need hardly state with
i whet eagerness I shell afford my humble support to the
measure about to be introduced ; nor can I sit down with-
, out off:ming a just tribute to those Ministers, who, regard-
hems of personal considerations, have had the magnanimity
to sacrifice their bonds to party to secure the internal pro-
sperity of the nation.
• Mr. DICKINSON was heard very indistinctly, as he
spoke from under time Gallery. He thought that there was
no danger of a new rebellion in Ireland, because in 1819
the Priests found that they lost their dues, and although
they might allow of a fluster for the sake of answering
their own views, their interest, as fir as money was con-
cerned, would prevent them front promoting open hostility
to the Government. He was by no means satisfied with
the disfranchisement of the forty-shilling freeholders, as it
was an net of injustice to them, for the sake of admitting
to power such men as Mr. O'Connell. Neither was he of
opinion that the Catholics would be satisfied with this
measure alone; they required much more, and their peti-
tions chewed that they aimed at the abolition of tithes, the
destruetioo of vestries, and the repeal of the Commutation
Act. Ile apprehended likewise that the Association could
not be put down by any Bill that might be passed to sup-
ra press it. He did not, bewever, mean to join any cry
against the change, anti if the Bill were passer(, which
seemed probable—(cheers :from all sides)—we understood
him to sly, that he was ready to acquiesce in it.
Mr. Liddell, Lord Nugent, and Mt. Brougham, rose
at the same time. The last was loudly called for, but the
Hon. MEMBER for Northumberland proceeded. Ile had
listened with admiration to the speech of the Right Hon.
Secretary, and he was ready to give the measure, in all
respects, excepting perhaps one, his warmest support. If
he approved of the alteration of the law, ;ie still more ap-
proved of time manner in which the Hon. and Gallant
General (Sir G. Murray), had replied yesterday to the
Speech of the New Member for time University of Ox-
ford ; that Gallant Officer had reserved the motto, cedunt
arma toew ; the Honourable Academician, at least wore
the toga only as a cloak fur intolerance, while the
Gallant General had only wielded the arms of Chris-
tian charity, peace, and conciliation.—(Hear, hear.)—
The Hon. Member then complained of the manner in
which the oppoeition to concession hail been conducted,
and especially of the attempt to overwhelm the expres-
sion of opinion by petitions; he also referred to the in-
flenanatory placards exhibited, and to the processions in
some par's of the country, where the effigies of the Pope
and " bloody Mary" were exhibited with a couple of fag-
gots between them. He doubted if these representations
had not had an undue influence on the minds of the people,
and whether they had not signed the petitions tinder mis-
taken impressions. The history of time cennection of this
country with her American colonies chewed the preci-
pitousprogress of oppression, and he quoted the words of
Lord Chatham upon that subject as must applicable to the
present times and to the situation of Ireland. The na-
tion would now await with trembling hope the fiat of
Parliament; the foundation-stone had been laid, and ere
lone the temple of concord would rise in all its majestic
and beautiful proportions.
Mr. BROUGHAM and another Member rose together,
but the letter gave way. I can assure the Hon. Member
that I shall not stand many minutes between hits and the
House. Ido not rise to debate the question, or to offer
any answer to the thousand times refuted argumenteagainst
concessions, but principally to express my entire and un-
qualified approbation of the measure, as a whole, pro-
pounded by Ministers. It goes the full length that any
reasonable man ever did, or ever can command ; it does
equal justice to his Majesty's Roman Catholic subjects—it
puts an end to all religious distinetiens—it exterminates all
civil disqualifications, on account of religious belief. It is
simple and efficacious, clogged with no exceptions, unless
such as even the most zealous of the Catholics themselves
must admit to he of necessity parcel of the measure. In
one word, it appears to me as it did when I fist heard it
proposed, so upon subsequent reflection my opinion is cor-
firmed, as far as any measure of the Legislature can do so,
to proclaim through the King's dominions, that religious
discord shall be no more. I now come to the declaration
which this Bill will require front Roman Catholics who
take office, or become Members of this House, and from
Roman Catholic Peers sitting in the other House of Par-
liament. I think this declaration perfectly conshtent
with the duties of per-eons taking office ; but I do not
think it should be required from Members of Par-
liament. As far as it is borrowed frotn a similar
declaration in the Act of last Session fur repealing
the Test and Corporation Acts, I see no objection to
it ; but though it is applicable to that case, it does
not appear to me that it can be required with perfect con-
sistency and propriety from a Member of Parliament.
That, and also the Declaration to be taken by Privy Coun-
cillors, require, it seems to me, further consideration—in
thenegative part, I mean. Possibly, on further reflection,
I may alter, my opinion ; but, on 'leering them read last
night, I thought of them as I have now stated. I trust
they will have the best attention in the Committee. Pass-
ing over the rest of the measure, I come to the second Bill,
in.which it is proposed to unite with time great measure of
relief one of those expedients which, in 182.5, were offered
at that time of negecimtion as one of the securities. I al-
lude to the disfranchisement of the forty-slmilling free-
bidders. I was then opposed to any measure of this de-
scription; end I can well conceive that, if it were not
united with the larger measure, as it is a fir nu re sweep-
ing measure of disfranchisement than that of 1825, it
would be a matter of serious objection. I will not disguise
my opinion, that for myself it would in that case be a
matter of all but invincible reluctance. Even if it had not
been altered, my opinion of the lesser measure of 1825
as I was one of those who opposed it—might well and in.
rrfect consistency have been charged on me as a reason for
not forming a favonreble opinion of this measure ; 'hut I
look to the whole of these measures. (Cheers.) If the (po-
tion is put to me, why do Ton vote for the disfranchisement
of the 40s. freeholder*? I say, if this question is put to the
separately, singly, or apart, it ought to be weighed on its
own grounds, and on its own grounds it should be an-
swered ; and then my answer is, No. But that is not the
question in the present case. Here it is put in connection:
with a far more difficult and complex question; and if it
ie so put to me, and I am practically required to vote
upon the subleel, I then ask, shall I take on myself the re-
sponsibility—shell I take on myself any shire of responsi-
bility—shall I take on myself, dare I tike on myself,
even the smallest share of the tremendous responsibility of
saying to Ireland, " Your last chance of peace, of tranquil-
lity, and of safety, is gone ; for these two measures are in-
separably connected together, and I will vote against one -
o
)—Fro that responsibility, even
frfontibienn; ?s'i'Tiall(C es
share of m
it, I freely confess I do shrink.—
(Great cheering.)--I am not ashamed to confess it—
(Continued cheering)—for it is a responsibility which
Wright well appal the stoutest heart, and shake the soundest
judgment.—(Cheere.)—l do, therefore, as the price, as
the all but must extravagant price, of this inestimable
good, consent to give it: not only is it inestimable fir the
blessings it will produce, but it has always been of the
highest expediencyand strictest justice, and has now be-
come of overwhehning necessity. That price I, for one,
'my I am willing to The Hon. and Leimned Gentle-
man sat down amidst the general cheering of the House.
Mr. F. CLINTON owned that his Majesty's Ministers
kul submitted to a great sacrifice in order to attain their
object of introducing these measures of concession, front
which they seemed sn confidently to anticipate the tran-
quillity of Ireland. The first question to be considered
eras, were these measures necess try to produce this effect ?
Would they establish tranquillity, allay religious animosi-
ties, put an end to the contention between the Protestant ,
and Catholic Associations ; or were they, on the contrary,
likely to produce any other effect than merely to change
the subjects of dispute, entail on the country struggles still I
more fierce and violent titan those in which it is now en-
gaged.—(Hear, hear.) In estimating the character of
igree
these measures which are said to lead to tranquillity, the
House could not fail :o be struck in the outset by the man-
ner in which they had been brought forward by his
ic and by the circumstances under which
the
concessionsinte
isrs,
were to be. made. They were brought
forward as measures of necessity; they were re-
presented, not as an act of grace, but as a measure forced
reluctantly from his Majesty's Ministers by the course of
events.--(Cheers.) He was far from imputing to his
Majesty's Government that they had acted under fear, in
tY'e 1%l

any disgraceful or dishonourable sense of the word ; but it
was not to be denied that the measures had been rendered
necessary by the hold and menacing attitude of the Catho-
' lic Association.—(Cheers.) That attitude, indeed was FO
formidable, that many of his Majesty's Ministers had
' avowed that though they still retained their former opinions,
Ithey thought those concessions were inevitable, and should
be made from views of prudence, to secure more firmly
the Protestant establishment. With their eyes still open
to all the evils—the inevitable consequence of the conces-
sions they were compelled to yield, even at the risk of
throwing the country into alarm and confusion—his Ma-
I jesty's Ministers persevered with their measures. The
Right lion. Member for the county of Inverness had I ,st
night congratulated that House and the country on the ex-
cellent prospects before them, and had described the mea-
sures as the most auspicious ever introduced into Parlie-
. ment. Now he (Mr. F. Clinton) could conceive no mea-
sures to be commenced tinder less happy auepices. They
were, in fact, measures extorted by necessity horn a re-
luctint Government. What promise did they afford that
they would prove so essential to the future tranquillity of
Ireland ? Did it augur well for the peace of Ireland when
they saw his Majesty's Government yielding their prin-
ciples and their long-cherished opinions for the purpo-e cf
• purchasing n temporary respite front the power of the Ca-
tholic Association?—(Cheers.)—He would say that the
manner in which these measures had been brought forward
afforded a very indifferent promise fine the future peace of
Ire'rul ; but rather held out an invitation to etruggle for
ulterior objects—(Cheers)—if there were ulterior objects
contemplated by the Catholics—as he, for one, could not
bring himself to believe there were not.—(Cheers.)--
Ample and unconditional as the measures of conces-
sion might he, they would not satisfy all the de-
sires of the Catholics. They would not satisfy that
important and powerful part of the Catholie body
who exercised an unbounded influence over the
rest—he meant the Catholic Clergy.—(Louri cheers.)
--Nothing would satisfy them but the estahliehzuent of
their own Church as the National Church.—(Cheers.)—
That must be their ultimate object, anxious as they were
to advance their temporal interests as well as their spiri-
tual power. It was nut in human nature that they should
have no wishes or interests for themselves. While they
exercised a tremendous power over the people, it curd not
he expected they would forego all hopes of exalting them-
selves, and cheerfully submit to exclusion from the wealth
and honours of the Church, leaving them undisturbed in
the possession of a Clergy whom they regarded as here-
tical.—(Cheers.)---If the Catholic Priests were disposed
to exert that iefluence now, wits that disposition likely to
be diminished by yielding to them ? Were they less likely
to show their power then than now, as they did through
the Catholic Association which they governed and di-
rected ? What possible securities could be had, that would
conerel the Catholic Priesthood to forbear from exerting
their power? We had none and could have none. Was
Parliament to rely on the moderation and temperance of
the Catholic Clergy ? Surely that was not a security to
serve as a foundation upon which to build well-grounded
hopes of future tranquillity by allaying religious animosi-
ties, blending together hostile sentiments, and producing
that friendly union which the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
Peel) sought by these measures to establish. The Right
lion. Member fur the county of Inverness had congratu-
lated the House and country also, that these measures
were brought forward without any Parliamentary artificial
securities ; and the Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Mr.
Brougham) had certainly that evening admitted that the
securities were little better than nominal. He was glad
to have the authority of both the Hon. Gentlemen to
sanction the opinion he had formed, when he heard the
speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Peel), namely
that this pl in of safety contained no adequate security for
the protection of the Established Church—that Church
which his Majesty, in his gracious Speech, bad recom-
mended to their especial care and protection, and which
we were enjoined, above all things, to uphold, and enter
into no measure in which the preservation of the Protestant
Establishment- was not the first and principal object—
(Cheers.)—The offices of Lord Chancellor in England
and Ireland, and Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, were not
to he filled by Catholics ; hut the office of First Lord (if
the Treasury might •he held by a Catholic—(Cheers),—
and all the rest of the Cabinet might be Catholics.--
(Cheers). The Lord Chancellor had the disposal of the
Crown patronage as to livings of the smallest income on
the King's books. That office was not to be given to a
; that patronage was not to fall into the hands of
the Catholics; but the First Lord of the Treasury, who
recommended to the Crown the persons to fill the highest
stations in the Church—the Bishops of the realm—
might be a Catholic.—(Cheers.)--There was a provision,
he admitted, made by the Right Hon. Gentleman, which
certainly stated, that if any officer, other than the
Lord Chancellor or the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland,
should haven to he a Catholic, his patronage should he
transferred to a Commission. He wished that this pro-
vision should be distinctly understood, for he owned that he
did not perfectly know whether it memt to include the
whole patronage necessarily belonging to the office. For
example, the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster had
the right of presentation to the living in his jurisdiction,
as being necessarily attached to the office. Was it meant
that the First Lord of the Treasury, whose duty it was to
recommend to the Crown the appointment of the Bishops,
should, of a Catholic, not himself appoint a clergyman?
This exception of the patronage would, however, not pre-
vent the First Lord of the Treasury from recommending
whom he. pleased to the Crown, though it might prevent
him, or the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, from
using the patronage belonging to his office. He would be
extremely happy to hear this provision explained,
as at present he was not satisfied with respect to it. As
to the securities, or exceutions he would rather call them,
introduced by this Bill, he thought they were quite suffi-
cient as a badge or mark to distinguish the Catholics as
an inferior sect not worthy of hying completely trusted,
while the security itself was perfectly insufficient for any
practical and efficacious purpose. ( Hear, heart.) If the
Bill were passed with these restrictions and exceptions in-
corporate(' with it, they would lee admissions of the exi4t-
ence of ulterior dangers. (Cheers.) lie repeated they were
admissions that the Catholics had still an object behind,
which they wished to obtain, and which they inevitably
would obtain, if Parliament gave them sufficient power.
([fear.)—Else why, he asked, when Parliament granted
all they desired, as it was said, were they not deemed
worthy to he trusted without taking securities from them,
and imposing exceptions and restrictions, which sliowed
that Parliament could not yet confide in them? lie was
happy to be confirmed in that view of the case by the
Right lion Gentleman, the Secretary of State for the
Home Department, who had admitted that the Catholics
had ulterior objects. That Right Hon. Gentleman had
gated most emphatically thet he had not changed his for-
mer opinions, but that he deemed it necessary to alter his
muse; He had also distinctly admitted that the Catholics
had ulterior objects, which they must wish and would
attempt to accomplish. In the very able speech which the
Right lion. Gentleman had delivered lest night, he had
put it in this way :--" Let us grant these concessions ;
let the struggle come ; for I still think a struggle will
come for ulterior objects."—(Cries of " No, no !")---Ife
thought the Right Hon. Gentleman had stated so in sub-
stance, but not, perhaps, in those very words.—(More
cries of " No, no !")—The Right Hun. Gentleman had
certainly reasoned in this way :—" If we are to have an
other contest—(cheers),—let us first grant these conces-
sions, that we may come to that contest with additional
strength."—(Cheers.)—He believed he had fairly stated
the Right lion. Gentleman's argument. He honestly eon-
-ICseed that he did not quite understand this mode of rea-
soning. It did not seem to lihn the most wise and expe-
dient course, when a contest wait impending, to put addi-
tional power into the hands of those who were to struggle
with us.—(Cheers.)—ln the course of these discussions, a
great deal had been said as to the principles of the Revolu-
tion of 168 S, and it was contended by some lion. Gentle-
men, that these measures would not break in upon that
Settlement. In the view he took, he could not regard the
Revolution in the, same light as those lion. Gentlemen.
He (lid regard it, as many (if his friends did also, us coneti-
oand completing the British Constitution. He looked
git as the Act which perfected and put the finishing
tuP‘stroketi: to that admirable Constitution which had been pre-
paring lin- ages. There was no pthvision, it was said in
the Bill of Rights, to exclude Catholics from Parliament.
When he looked at what was passing, and tile opinion of
our ancestors, it was impossible not to see that they did
intend that Parliament and the councils of the King
should he of a character exclusively Protestant. The Ca-
tholics had been excluded from Parliament before that
time, but the great work was perfected at the Revolution,
by excluding Catholics from the throne. But his Majes-
ty's Ministers, while they retained their opinions, said that
the present danger was so urgent, that, at all events and
hazerds, they were resolved to purchase a little present
ease.—(Hear, hear, hear.)—They could not, forsooth, pass
m e n t
Theyfr(imsaid,
in
effect, Parlia-
ment
a Bill to suppress the Catholic Association—they could
not obtain the consent of Parliament, they said,tin-
lese they could art
Emancipation.
t, We will make a compromise ; we will grant
concessions, and at the same time call on those who oppose
ase t o pars a agr
them to anagree to the suppression of the Association." He
believed he had stated fairly, and in a few words, the folie-
'dation of what the Right Ekon. Gentleman had stated in
the early part of the Session. The question was, whether,

in making this exchange or compromise, the objects
each side were of equal value ? Did the people of Englatel
gain an equ►valent f.r what they lost ? In his view of the
cage—and when it was confirmed by the Right Hon. Genii
tlen►an, that view must he correct—these measures wow" ,
break in on the settlement mule at the Revolution of 1688.
The principles of that glorious event were not to be bar'
tered away for any temporary purpose or expedient; but
now it was proposed to abandon them, and in exchange hie
Majesty's Ministers gave Parliament a Bill for the suppres-
sion of the Catholic Association ; and this was done t
make a short and precarious truce with the Catholics. 06
agreed that the laws affecting the Catholics should be dell
considered, but time should be given to the people to eit'
press their opinions on these measures, which were the
most important submitted to Parliament since the nett*"
sion of the House of Hanover to tine Throne of these
Realms.

Mr. NORTIL—The Hon. Gentleman who has just
resumed Isis seat, I think myself bound to say has, by bill
ap.ueeable eloquence, by his sound reasoning, and by has
evident sincerity, entitled himself to the attention of the
House. He is of opinion that the measures now proposed
by his Majesty's Government world net restore tranquil-
lity to Ireland. I have listened with great attention to
the arguments he used to establish that proposition. Bub
aliove all, 1 waited with great anxiety for the propold
which the lion. Gentleman would make by way of sub-
stitution for the measures of his Majesty's Government;
I was deeply anxious as a Member of this House; and s'
a native of Ireland, for that complete will satisfactory mer
sure which he, I thought, was going to bring forward, ie•
order to put to shame the imperfect measures proposed 11
his Mejesty's Government, and thus finally to establish the
tranquillity of Ireland. But the speech of the Hon. Gen*
tleman concluded, and a " lame and impotent condo-
sion" it was ; for I was entirely disappointed.—(Laugh'
ter and cheers.)—The Hon. Gentleman began by stating,
that these measurer were utterly insufficient for their par'
pose, as they did not contain any complete and adequate
securities to prevent the Catholic.' from seeking their el'
terior oloects, which I understand to mean that they in-
tend to assail arel overthrow the Church Estahliahmente
(Hear, hear.)—The Hon. Gentleman, I hope, will alio/
the to say, that he did not put his at gument with perfect
fairness and justice. The question is not whether We
have obtained new securities by the new measures; but
rather whether we have parted with any securities 11
leaving the situation in which we found ourselves.—(Hesr°
bear.)—l will not yield to that Hon. Gent., or any Mem-
ber of this House, in zeal fir the Established Church,
and, least of all, for that part of it which is established in
Ireland. lam attached to it by the warmest feelings et
my nature—by a strong and early predilection—by the
ties of close friendship and gratitude—and I may add of
affection also—and if I thought that in consenting to these
measures, we should part with any real- security to the
Established Church, I would sooner part with my right
hand than give them my support.—(Cheers.)—But can I
believe that it is any set urity to the Established Church,
to he held out to the great body of the people as the hotel
cause of their humiliation and degradation ?—(Cheers.)--•
Can I believe that it is for the advantage of the Established
Church to be looked neon as the cold, dark, (billing ob.'
stacle interposed between the people and the beams et
'toyd favour—which crosses their path in every road to
interest and honour, and establi•hes au insuperable barrier
between different classes, and prevents them from joining
hand in hand end heart with heart, to enjoy the common
blessings, and partake the common prosperity of their
country?—(Cheers.)—lt does give a security to the Esta-
blished Church when we throw down these barriers and
obstacles, awl when that discontent shall be removed of
that strongest and most powerful mass of the people, non
marshalled against the Established Church, which they
consider the object of their hatred, hostility, and envy.
We do give a security to the Established Church, ,
making its existence congenial with those feelings which
make an essential past of our nature, and inspire us with
sentiments of kindness and benevolence. I wish the
Honourable Gentleman, and the Honourable Member for
the University of Oxford, and others who feel a strong
regard for the Established Church, and that clergy, Who
not only teach and support our religion, hut practise its
precepts, to consider whether the present state of Ireland
conduces to those religious feelings which they profeSe
themselves anxious to maintain? The present state of Ire-
land, I can say from my own actual observation, conduce
to very different feelings and principles. It plucks out the I
heart of religion,:which is charity—(Cheers)—it seta mar
against man, and puts a eanker into every heart; and
be long continued, it will, I fear, put a dagger into evel:'
hand.—(Cheers.)—Good God ! is it for the interests_ jr°
religion, and of that Church which professes to be unitef
in its spirit and feeling with religion, that men of !sign
rank among the Clergy, should descend from their pulpits,
and mixing with the multitude, familiarise their minds
with the expectation of the horrors of a civil war.--
(Cheers.)—Are these the tenets which the Hon. Member
for Oxford would teach the Clergy of that Church ? And
are these the principles they will continue to preach, in
order to produce that tranquillity which they profess them'
selves so anxious to establish, and so dissatisfied with these
measures, because they will not effect it ? I may be el-
lowed, I trust, as a native of that land, and after Burster
ing the conduct of its people for a series of years, to saY,
without any feeling of prejudice, and with no feelings, I•
believe, of partiality, and certain I am—certain that, °
any partiality does belong to my feelings and affections, it
is for my Prutestent countrymen rather than for my WI;
man Catholic countrymen, to tell the Hon. Gentleman tht
it is not possible, if the situation of Ireland remains sue'
as it has been for the last twenty years, that it can be 00;
patible with the tranquillity of the people ; and I will tel;
the Hon. Gentleman further, that I believe firmly, that if
any people on the face of the globe were in the same
situation, they would be as much dissatisfied as the
Irish themselves. Let not the Han. Gentlemen imagine
that there is any thing, as it was said by the eloquent and
Gallant General last 'tight, with so much truth and feel-
ing, in the character of the people or climate of Ireland,
that makes tumult and disturbance essential to their lives.
It is in the law of the land, in the exclusive system, in the
idolised ascendancy, which has so many impious and suPerj
stitious woushippere—(lou.l cheers)—that we must- sec'
the causes of the evils that afflict Ireland. In that odious
ascendancy we may trace the history of these discontents
which produced the agitation of Ireland,—(cheers.)---
This ascendancy being about to cease, I do not hesitate to .
Say that we have arrived at a period when the Constitution
of 1658 will be broken in upon; but I will not say what
I think may be in the Hon. Gentleman's thoughts as to
when the ascendancy of the eighteenth century may be
broken in upon. Let me offer a few words of consolatln°
to the Hon. Gentleman as to the result of this question.
Sir, I will ask any Irish gentleman, where Protestant
ascendancy, about which they talk so much, has been to
be found for the last 15 years? Let them ask the merchant
whether it is to be found on the Exchange—let them as'
else lawyer whether it is to he fotrud in the Four Courts---
let them ask the country gentleman- whether it is to be
found on the hustings? I answer for them—no," •
(Hear, hear.)—.The Protestant Ascendancy, which those.
Protestant gentlemen worship so devoutly, is in fact a vi-
sionary being—without substance—impalpable—and 0'
no account.—(Hear, hear, beer.)—lt is like the ghost
of one lung since in the grave; or if it does exist, it
exist, only to distract the judgment, to deceive "the
heart, and to astound the imagination.—(Cries of Hear,.
bear.)—But this is not all : along with it the Baffle
gentlemen are equally alarmed, because they believe that
is concurring in this measure they would be conferring n -
gift ; but I will tell them that the gift is as visionary astbe
Pretestant Ascendancy fur which they fear so much,"'
)-Whlit, say they, are we now to be called n 14)" to
confer honoura and liberty on the Catholic's, and at this,
crisis, when the Aliaisters have- been subdued by intimidac
thin and threats ? But though these gentlemen talk 0'
giving power to tho Catholics, I will tell thenythat it is ilot
in their power to make that gift; the Catholic's of Ireland
possess a power beyond theirse--(cheers)-a-a power inder.
pendently of theirs—a power that, though, we have-00v
called it into existence, we may at least hope,- with, proper, ,
care, to regulate. (Cheer.) In the course of the debate
on thin question, there have been a good many allusions to
what him been called brute force, and military power. -Sir°
I might follow up this allusion by telling the Hon. Gentle'
man who adopted it, that the question is, whether the/
were to extinguish the brute but energetic power of the
Catholic multitude of Ireland, Or whether they were".
enlist it, with all its strength and all its magnitudeainto the
service of the State? I might tell him, that the question is
whether that force is to be turned through despair to oil'
lawful purposes. or whether it was to be made- to contra-.
hate to the prosperity and happiness of the whole entenirr!.
(Cheering. )—The I ion. Gent. who had spoken that evenfrig
against the measure (Mr. Fynes Clinton), has adverted
to the Bill which the Legislature has just passed, for- the,
purpose of putting down the Catholic' Association. No*.
Sir, I must beg leave to tell that Hon. Gentleman that •
theme was no part of his speech which did not manifest the:
molt entire ignorance of the actual condition of Ireland.
(Hear, hear,- and la ughter. )—and above all did "lie dliplaY„
ignorance when he spoke of the measure 'ettthe
paid for the putting down 'of the CithbliC AssoCititiOn• ,
Does that lion. Gentleman think in his lit:Miran:C-64i die,
Catholic Association and agitation are' tltisan4; and
he used synonimouely.—(Hear, hear.)—lkiren'ielf•thrl,
Hon. Gentleman this, the doors of the Catholic Aetioobv:e
ti-ii may be shut up—its orators, from 'the best to thrisn't°.

1