The Sun.
London, England, 1845-02-18 00:00:00

THE ST'N, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 18, 1845.

return for that sneer sent enelin to fnreign countries,
tahe from these eaeutries, es from Russia, for instance,
hemp, tar, and thnber.—(" ;rear, hear," from the Q,po-
sition.) It is much the same to do this as to consume
the sugar itself. I understand tint, last year, though
you had scruple's with regard to the sugar of Bread, your
orders in Council admitted the slave-grown produce of
other countries." Then, for instance, ou would say to
" We admitted sugar from Venezuela, we mew freely
admit coffee, cotton, end tobacco, though slnee-grown.
That you and that we have imported Venezuelian sugar,
and indirectly encouraeed slav eserown sugar, the pro-
duce of other countrice, but we have scruples which
P revent us from consuming slave-grown sugar." What
,w°llld the Brazilian Ambassador sey this?-0111Y
'laugh ill your flees. Ile bad rd the Right Iron.
.Gentleman say that he did not iiitea nd that this arrange-
leant of the sugar duties should be perpetual, arid that
he would continue the same mode of imposing the
duty on that article. The Right Ilonouralde Ba-
ronet well knew that as long as the duties con-
tinued in their present condition the question would
be cone ~
if onnany discussed in that House, and
not introduced by the Chancellor of the Exchequer
would be brought 'under notice be other Hon.
bewilders. With respect to the sacrifice of 1,300,000/,
~ ,
eally tnink, without going to the extent of say-
IT! that sugar, the produee of foreign eosin tries, should
admitted en tie same terms 'is that of our own colo-
nies, that great alterations aunt
and a great
aPproaeh to free trade peincip!ea, at the same tame main-
tablin the revenue. Ile did net see that there was any
al!se tor abandoning se lorge a pertion of the revenue.
With respect to the plan proposed by the Government.
PrePosing the reductioe of nearly the whole roneent
Psurplus revenue, to within 70,0001. of the 300,0001 or
°,OOO/. which we possessed, they put, in its stead, the
ror„tne-tax, or, limier such circumstances, the
ds of the Chancellor of the Exelsega.r, n three year
hence We will have no alternative but to continue the
i(hcome-tax, or be in a state of national insolvency."—
riaateitottr;ohrear.) Ile did not think it fair towards the
ratio
to propose such (leafier' witheut the decht-
ther it the Government as to their intention, and who-
be their opinion that this property and income• tax
refineoie of the best resources which can be preposed as
tinauerev;Hus t re raw. This would lead the oe fairly
at the
consideration of the case, and they would consider
the ti e, either through a Select Ceuenittee or
Ittil a ahstatnittee of' the whole House, whether some o.
pb ernigeirpelaet injustice and inequalities of that tax might not
ii.ernedied. With regard to commercial refersn, the
table and easy manner,
.ght lion. Gentleman hesitated to adopt the right
,nut indeed when
it could be shine in an agree-
but when they knees they would
rave to contend with class interests and with monopo-
ilistSt and when great opposition was expected.—(Bear,
i..esar.) The Government ought well ti consider the sub-
and whet the true interests of the country were ;
".4u they should net, at all events, endeavour to itsfgre,-
~ate the monopolies which at present existed. His
'Lew was, that they must indeed continue the income-
tax for the present, bat that they should not make all
the reductions which the Wght Honourable Baro-
bet proposed. , He thought those reductions might
made on cotton-wool and glass, but with
respect to the other t rticles, some of them
he thought ought not to be touched et all ; and as to
sugar, and some other articles, he would take quite a
different course. Ilia imptesnion was, us he hid already
said, that protection was the bane of ngricui tin e.—
l(Hear, hear.)
protective dutiieie maintained that opinion as regarded
3. Mr. Huskisson, some years ago,
showed how injurious it was to silk ; and in Canada the
timber duties, which operated so favourably towards
°tic colonists there, had been, according to the state-
Ment of Mr. Macgregor,- tie ruin of many farmers who
IsPeculated largely in timber. At the same lime, he
caidmitted that those protective duties should be with-
atirTatt
rgurpatdiyua;lly and can tiou rather Ilan L9llll'll'l3.
but of this he felt confident, that it' they
Wei Shed to get rid of the income.tex, they must take
!ens mode of endeavouring to improve and increase
mine resources of the country.—(Hear, hear.) If
Ore markets were opened, and if we admit-
ted imports, the demand for labeur would
at the manufactures would greatly extend, and
h end of five or six years more, we might entertain
°Pea that the income-t •ex would be abolished. The
question 'was whether we were to have a perpetual in-
e--.°lllte'tax and' a continuance of monopoly and restriction
anude exclaimed against both. He felt the impossibility,
freteer esaisting circumstances, of withholding his assent
tee proposition which the Chairman had in his
cen, but with the hope that the income-tax would not
eotiverted into a permanent burden. The Right Hon.
tienaan had taken such a course, as to make it neces-
-3,4 that this tax should be renewed at the end of three
the and so on from time to time; but he did hope that
openelletsissure of this odious and inquisitorial tax had
suffers, "e.el'es of the people to the disadvantages they
arid by sec commercial restrictions and monopolies,
!age,. Y seeking to make trade free, procure great
.advan-
-4604 itzitionsettwthheichle,ast of which would be the abolition of
in times of peace, nev• r should be re-
to,---(Lond cheers.)
r' ltol'Vrtdi was oiseppointed at the conclusion
I the , • .
,naport sPeech of t,;s Noble Lord, which he thought an
aeneh ant conclusion._Ztleer, hear, from the Minister:al
tilisheed)Wl-:l,ei had reviev4'd eve-"v item in the Budget, but
i:j34ol.lsolsz.::•lnv
was
without iapting an y deljded course. The
,aree Lord knew well ciamg,h that the ecome-tax for
phrase of the lii ht lacfe7ur'eb,hl('l
inbet hiesh—ht!le Noble Lord knew
.that it meant erpme.,
e wow, o.lld not hike the Nob:e Lord as his model,
the Nob", Propose a distinct amendment, and he hoped
Press 'e I-hrd would vote with him, as he un- ant to
ahntaolt,,ti 1a division. He believed the Right Hon, Gen-
totie};4 not act as he thought, tire] that he propo,ed
,ithle to n 1 a right dhmetion as he thought he would be
4,4laroeetel.rrY through both Hotzses. The Right Hon.
jailed in "e", and appreciated the principle, but
"Y the TsaPPlying —(llear, hear.) was
was deterred
°,l Members (by whom he was surrounded.
ah • Would ,
, ask the Right llon. Baronht, had he
alt 6en ••• • -ered - e),trhaie for thee expenses of the army, or
Year? ,1175 Position in that regard from that of last
'nu e• would not ask the Right Hon. Baronet
nig itegnlvalent had this country gained by maintain-
ay it it shiolla,t9ense colonial establishment, but he would
lon fur the be matter for grave.and stTious com,idera-
aquivnf tnis House, whether the country derived an
this -wilt for .
ircold the expenditure incurred by maintaining
°llse she rd establishment—( Hear, hear)—and. if the
rs."llld determine upon a continuation of this vast
itira
on hut this empire, so extensive that " die sun never
hould 3 111thS," as the phrase went, why then they
Ai to Pay for their indulgence in this expensive luxury.
said he le quire for`
the Right Hon. Baronet
Itttio Would require for the expenses of the navy, in
star g °t at
toe amount he had said the three great •
t: at Which the principal naval force was
the - :maintained. were China, America, and
Pass byes' Coast of Africa. Now, he (Mr. R.) would
o
Tiger of them and come to the most expensive and
brQrai.,,,,(3:1,,51 that a west Africa ; and he would sa, in
‘L'ilt 0,1 f to that past, that all the efforts of the lion.
th. .es to • ,
right clown the slave trade in that quarter by
(abed,(h Of search
.project had totall-• and signally
Tette, Bear,' would end in disaster to all engaged in it—
tti, the (14, Now, he would come te another branch
tee Itighit.:ol,lhearld assuming the expenses stated by
mate e„,r`t.un. Barenet to be neces ;ray, and his esti-
-08 the (Mr. B.) would ask the House what it
hu_ls, ouraLie Baronet proposed to do? It was
be said Prop Berl to meet the (!eficiency which
tiY the Co"aid be felt up to the year 1847,
bale, et.,lltinuation of the income- tax up to that
he(Nent other words, that he wanted 5,000,0001.
41! lqhtl-rirltoebuck) would say it was incumbent upon
haeliitialar'n. Baronet to show the House that this was
tll~PreattNse," expenditure ; and that the means by which
t " to raise this sum was not only better than
desvaide, buto ,Wvllie,h he (Mr. Roebuck) would presently
thi, std. isles n!Att.r than any other plan that could be
tieht Eon. Baronet further called upon
°fen ase to r,
ths -baltrieree 11',ut or abolish certain taxes upon articles
one.'ight If; A''w he (Mr. Roebuck) would show that
orllua, reus, oish.n...Baronet's plan of increased taxation was
ent to b""i°)•.lous, and mischievous, and that the taxes
44Ivecl. Inreinitted were not those that ought to be re-
tsxentited t
,fact, the Right Hon. Baronet's plan
h_esers,off, aailastwte.P.iy this—;hat with one hand he took
The ...an the other he put thaw on.—(Hear,
to 'Pet, t‘vve ;Rt,ght Hon. Baronet said he only wanted,
Ili be
~ithiptnilhons, while he levied five ; but taking it
boght r stun, he (Mr. Roebuck) could tell the
~„,tiest, bun Durable Baronet that there was an
I,7at tholcooUrable, and , quitable mule of levying it.
toted. jelo thine-tax was an ueequal tax could he easily
be 4 Power to ought to he taxed hut in proportion
quit eertaine d°,_PaY ; and his power to pay cnold only
e (dee,. °Y hie sources of income. It was also
,tictoe, • teat a te • • &he .004 of whose inceme depended upon the
of
_saute
ah_uprofessional labour should not be taxed to
k /4 tnan nt, though his income be the same, as that
th:,enaimpienul,erived his incense from the possession of
1,04) cliff`-ren7ate'—(Hear, hear.) Take two men in
fee se income positions ; suppose one man deriving
ofione Year as the result of his professional labours
nteo r ; and
I/11th the another with the same
hot, e techn e sante year from land •, present them both
amount
joeon..hieo to t=
fort
an d he (Mr. R.) would affirm that taking.
fop froes wrty years of' age each, he who derived his
f
where"lthel,land would gt twenty years' purchase
tothin
think t's of _professioind man would- not get one
here eoulr,_neY•—(Hear, hear.) He did not
nail t: fl uc a plainer illustration of the ine-
htente to
Ittlicietne-tax than that. He would now
of this re, let him e mode in which this tax was levied,
't eo
ay, that he did not think the people
48nlisitopitTr? sho
ndurabl
uld be subjected to so annot ing and
01, Loolced eYBtern•—(llear
thl°Bt UPou a d :) He was convinced it
h part
neati4l4,,ar a felt as inquisitorial, °diens, and
,e•—(llear, hear.) He did think that
for tOtiffieit,t ; as to the amount of his income ought
so 10:at the • tined surely it would not be contended
aattels " ebb axis of the people of England were at
the beset'.--met: that this plan could not be deemed
ts°llal s arid safest hear') I-10 looked upon it as
ut, Bteal at "nree; and by it the odious, inquisi-
teh,t
ti.einent used would be avoided.—(Hear.)
sae 01,1,eXt die 1;
eltight Hon. Baronet continue this tax,
in Jlaxatinnn jinurpose to do ? To take off a por-
-44014 f he had peertain commercial articles ? In
ay • our •
,t)lded pled diffP""d t(). take the duty off a
—4443,..21e11ing erent articles, while he carefully
of evil •(Hear any of the great interests of the
heeds' staodit,', °eat%) lie had left that giant-tree
eebi--(leer hear
to . be reinoved by more stalwart
tile to See t;dllae,ar)----hut he (Mr. Roebuck) hoped he
aa, crying evils,
fhe enopen 3' soon come, when those • e• evils
s‘l w
htold
ht:sre4, vt:eiant tZislse c° file haeg; ruel tr' ttirel and.' the celimiai
• 4504, as gill Mit ry......(11„r
• th °rlet - Ileed , hear.) The firet of
at ' with ir, by the hand of the Right Hon.
fat a'
fir a touch the most dedicate and refined
I‘B
3rlci Sit-rtle artist
give it.—(Great
:440 kaiLeue-er
s'tgoter,) i'Vhilee()tilliled other lie dealt with
;"evshat more deterrnitied.—(ilear', hear.)
wag
'see; tv,,-eriets
uq Whatd predominating influence in that
language of the Hon. Baronet

to them and to the colonial gentlemen ? To all he
saki,'' Support me. and I'll support yon." lie Colo-
niel interests in that House, he said, " Support me on
the corn-l4av question, and I'll euppart vets on the
sugar duties."—(Crha of " Hear, hear.'') To the
aaTieuiturists his arguments were equally p
(Hear, hear.) I.'irow, with regard to the reductions that
the lion. Baronet had made on the articles of timber
and sugar, he (Mr. Roebuck) would deny that any
benefit had resulted to the cbuntry by the reduction on
the latter, because if the duty had been equalised on
sugar rroduced in all parts of the world, the same
benefits a mild have followed, while the duty would not
have been lessened. Now, he would like to see how
the Hon. Baronet would explain upon what principle he
had let in the Venezuela slave-grown sugar, or the
enormous amount of slave-grown cotton.—(Hear, hear.)
Could it be possible that these productions, being the
result of slave labour, did not touch his feelings
in favour of the slaves in those places as
well as 5.n other parts of the world?—(Hear.)
The Mak Hon. Baronet had lost 1:3,0001. by his changes
in the fiscal regulations as regarded sugar, part of
which went into the pock is of the West India planters
and a large portion was altogether thiown away. And
why thrown away ? Because it was non-productive.
And so with timber. Canadian timber was not enly
dearer but greatly worse in quality. and upon it there
was a loss of 900,0001. He (Mr. Roebuck) knew this
subject well, and if the Right lion. Baronet and other
gentlen en would go thrtmeh the calculations they
might see it now, as no doubt they would at sonic later
eerfod feel hear.) Canada p-oluced its own
titubier we.ll no• if for the mists of ships, but timber
clle from the tteliie at a cheaper rate and of a finer
quality for all the Janna-rases of building. But what would
be the result ? 900,000!. would be lost to the Exchequer
and yet the people weld have no better timber, They
were about to impose upon the country an income•
tax, and what was their justification ? Why this. That
they were about to favour theipountry with all alteration
of the fiscal duties. Be (Mr. Roebuck) said that those
alterations were fallacious in principle, bad in calculation,
and led to no desirable result. He had already reviewed
what the Right Hon. Baronet called the necessity for
these changes. and they had heard the Right Hon. the
Chancellor of the Exchequer say that they were neces-
s.ary in order to avert national bankruptcy. But why
remit the duties on sugar and timber, and preserve to
the country this inquisitorial tax ? lie left upon the
Plight Honourable Baronet the onus of proving his
(Mr. Roebuck's) statements to be incorrect. Be-
fore adverting to another part of the question he
could not help remarking that there was a
very great deal of art in the scheme propounded by the
Right Hon. Baronet. There was a something to mollify
Manchester and Glasgow, and there was an attempt to
soothe the Noble Lord (Lord Ilowick) by the alteration
upon dual.—(Laughter.) So far from agreeing with
the Noble Lord, that no exports should be taxed, that
might be the newe,t principle ; however, he (Mr. Roe-
buck) thought that the exports of the country were
this which ought to be the first to be taxed, inasmuch
as' their customers, not themselves, consumed them. Ile
considered that the Right lion. Baronet had completely
failed to make out his ease. He hail not established one
reason for his changes. He (Mr. Roebuck) would say
nothing of the anetion alutti, but he certainly thought
that imposts pressiiie more severely upon the industry of
the country might have been removed. The Rieht Hon.
Baronet had, he belie%ed, remitted that tax because of
the enormous expense of collecting it. One word
more about the remission of taxation. 'The Right Hon.
Baronet had remitted the duty on glass. This would
certainly benefit the rich, by lowering the cost of their
chandeliers ; but the windows of the poor would remain
untouched by it. The present step was in the right
direction, and he thanked the Right Hon. Baronet for it.
It was an earnest of a future time, when the monstrous
monopalies of the country would be levelled to the
ground. Let him not be mistaken in the resolution he
was about to propose. He proposed to leave out of the
resolution the words " professions, trades, and offices,"
not for the purpose of exempting them altogether, but
of subjecting them to a regular system of taxation, such
as he had described.

Sir GEO. GREY said that in her Majesty's speech, at
the beginning of this session, it was recommended to
Parliament to consider whether it might not be expedient
to continue for a limited period the tax on property, and
to consider also whether those taxes which pressed
more heavily upon the energies and the industry
of the country ghoul I not be removed. The Right
Hon. Baronet, in strict accordance with the recommen-
dation in that speech, had laid before the House his pro-
posed alterations. In the speech which he had addressed
to the House on Friday last, after reviewing the state
of the country, and his views with regard to the reduc-
tion of taxation, he stated his confident expectation that,
in making a proposition for the continuance of the in-
come• tax for a period of three years, he should be after-
wards enabled to dispense with the tax altogether. The
Hon. and Learned Gentleman who had just sat down
had informed the House, with a gesture of disdain and
contempt, which he granted would he well merited if the
result should bear him out, that the tax would not be
limited bat p. inn iieot. He (Sir George Grey)
trusted that the Right Honourable Baronet, or
one of his cod: agees, would give the House
the grounds for the confident expectation advanced that
the tax would not be renewed, and for their desire that
that House would confirm, in consequence, the Right
Hon. Baronet's resolution. He (Sir George Grey) had
opposed the tax three years ago, but he was prepared
"en to allow the imposition of the tax for a further
term,
p _i
2evid..edthat he had a certainty of its being again
se at the expiry of that time whether it
left to the line
•outinued or not. He could see no-
should be further t.ien that Government. should
thing more reasonable
e, with a view to the
propose its continuance at this 1,..17
removal of other taxes which pressed taa7e 11.'11Y "P"
the industry of the country; but lookin:
to the
speech of the Right Hon. Baronet, he, for one, co:.'id
not discover the grounds for his confident anticipation
that the tax would at an after period be removed.—
(Hear, hear, from Mr. Roebuck.) He did not mean to go
through the statement of the Right llon. Baronet in
detail, but he could not, like him, entertain the solitary
expectation that, at the end of three years, the revenue
would be in that state to enable him to dispense with
the income-tax, and he believed that, if the proposition
of the Right Hon. Bar,met were at-ceded to by the
House, it would be a gratuitous sacrifice of a large
amount of property without giving the country any
equivalent for the sacrifice. Ile might assume that the
Right Hon. Baronet was sincere in his desire to exclude
from the markets of this country the sugar of those court-
tries which encourage slave labour. But he asked, in the
event of such an increase in the consumption of that
article to pay the loss in duty, from whence the supply
was to come? Were their colonies to supply 34,000
hogsheads, which the Right Hon. Baronet took credit
fir to cover his deficit of 3,0001. ? Ile (Sir G. Grey)
doubted whether the colonies could supply so much. He
thought that the revenue would be sacrificed, and that
the price would not be lowered lid. to the consumer, as
had been promised by the Right Hon. Baronet, and the
result would be to benefit the pockets of the gentlemen
who supported the monopoly.—(Hear.) Ile d
that the Right Hoe. Baronet had no confident expectation
of excluding from the markets the sugar from the slave-
growing countries, and, therefore, let them not hypo-
critically assume that they could act on that principle,
hut let them at once sweep away the distinctions that
had been hitherto preserved, and equalise the duties
up, at them.—(Hear, hear.) Any other mode of dealing
Vlith the question would but have the effect of making
even more injurious monopolies than those that now
existed, ard he should, therefore, support the resolution
of the Hon. Member for Manchester, that no settlement
of the question could be 'considered but such as involved
an equalisation of all the duties on that article. With
r: gird to the amendment of the Hon. and Learned
Member for Bath, he (Sir G. Grey) trusted, for one,
that the Right Hon. Baronet might supply some ground
for his belief that he should be able to remove the tax at,
the end of three years. He (Sir G. Grey) did not wish
to see experiments or modifications tried upon it, for his
own opinion was that the more obnoxious the tax the
more likely they were to get rid of it.
The CHANCELL' )R of the EXCHEQUER said
that differing materially in opinion as to the results of
these alterations from the different gentlemen who had
spoken, there were at least some points in which there
apps-tired a great uniformity of opinion between them.
The Neble Lord did not object to a continuance of the
income-tax ; the Hon. Gentleman did not.object to it ;
the lion. and Learned Member did not object to it, only
lie wished to introduce modifications into it. He agreed
with the Right Hee. Baronet who had last spoken,
that tht se in'e would only render the
measure meet, ixions and altogether inoperative.
Upon this point les thought they were generally agreed,
that in the course of the year it would be necessary to
increase the expenditure of the country by the amount of
1,200,000/e in order to keep up those establishments
which could not be neglected without the greatest detri-
ment and danger to the country.—(Hear, hear.) But
the Right Hon. Gentleman-who spoke last asked upon
what ground his Right Hon. Friend anticipated that, at
the period for which he had called for the continuance of
the income-tax, ho would he able to repeal it ?—(Hear,
hear.) Now he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer)
would tell him that the Ministers grounded that anti-
cipation upon the experience of the past ; and that if the
establishments of the country were kept upon the same
footing as last year, they could, with perfect safety,
abandon the income-tax, at present.—(Hear, hear.) That
tax was imposed in 1842. It was then imposed to meet
the expenditure, which exceeded the revenue, and pro-
duced a deficiency. It was now proposed to continue it
for the purpose of meeting an increased expenditure, in
the necessity of which all seemed to agree, and at the
same time to relieve the country of burdens which
pressed upon industry and commerce. It must be remem-
bered that when this income-tax was first submitted to the
House, it was for the put pose of covering a large deficiency
which then existed, and to release from burden a num-
ber of articles which were at that time subject to bur-
dens, by which commerce and industry were restricted.
It was then supposed that by removing that taxation, a
spring would be given to the industry of the people—so
that after an interval, which might last five years, but
which, as his Right Hon. Friend (Sir R. Peel) at the
time stated would probably be no more than three—the
industry and commerce of the country would recover,
and the income-tax might be dispensed with. And what
was the situation of the revenue at the two periods,
when the tax was imposed, and at the expiration of the
three years ? He would refer for an answer to the ac-
counts of the revenue in the three years. In the ac-
counts of the year ending the 10th of October, 1842,
the ordinary revenue of the country, that arising from
Customs, Excise, the Assessed Taxes, the Post- -office,
and the Land-tax, amounted, as near as possible, to
forty-seven millions of money. The measure sub-
mitted to Parliament in that year withdrew from the
ordinary revenue an amount of taxation above 140,0001.
of annual income.—(Hear, hear.) But, on the 10th of
October, 1844, the accounts show that those same
taxes, which had been reduced by the amount of 140,000/,
produced, not as in 1842, nearly forty-seven millions

but 47,074,0004—(heer, hear.) Therefore he thought
that en inereese of revenue would be produced by a
judicious reduetion of the taxation pressing upon in-
dustry. The stimulus given to industry, when the re-
, duetion was made with justice, and upon those which
• should be best selected, would be suet that in the next
three years a result similar to that produced in the Jest
• three years might be expected. It was on that antici-
pation the Mini Seers grounded the measure, which, he
trusted, the House would now sanction. He confidently
expected such an improvement in commerce
and manufactures, and consequently such an
improvement in the revenue, as would at
:he end of three years enable the House to say whether
any further change should take place or not. He had
been surprised to hear the Noble Lord (Lord John
Russell) say that there was no certainty that the reduc
tion of taxation proposed would produce an increase of
revenue, because there were some articles upon which
reduction had taken place, and there had been no in-
crease.—(Hear.) With all deference to the Noble Lord,
he tbomeht he was not correct in his facts, and that if he
were correct in them, he was incorrect in his deductions
from them. It a as true (as we understood), that in
the case of wool —( Hear, (rear, from the leading Oppesi
tion bench)--the increase had been quite commensurate
with the reduction. The cost of the article
lied been diminished. There had been a larger
number of consumers, and those persons were enabled,
ey the r, duction, to expend more in the consumption of
other artieles.--(llear, hear.) But it was a very nar-
row view of the reduction and repsal of taxes, when the
Noble Lord would have them look only to the effect of -
an increase in the particular tax reduced. If that doc-
trine were admitted, they s`-,ould repeal no tax ; for
every tax repealed was, to that extent, a loss to the
revenue. But, speaking from practical experience,
every reduction or repeal of taxation pres.her upon in-
dustry was attended with an improvement of the re-
venue.—(Hear.) He confidently affirmed that past ex-
perience justified their anticipations in the present instance.
—(Hear.) Looking back to an antecedent period—
(Lord J Russell, " Lot d Althorpn—yes; at that period
a reduction of taxes which had substeted for a long term
of years was effected. In the year immediately preced-
ing that in which his friends (the Chancellor of
the Exchequer's) and himself went out of office, and the
Noble Lord opposite and his friends succeeded them in
office, revery larger. peal of taxes was made, and in the two
years following taxes to the amount of 5,700,0004 were
reduced or repealed. That reduction apparently brought
the revenue to be expected down to 45 millions from 50
millions and some odd hundred thousands ; but in the
year that immediately followed there was an increase
upon the remeining taxes of 3,500,0001., bringing
the revenue up to upwards of 48,000,000/. ; and in
the year 1835 the revenue was :nearly the- same
as before the reduction took place.—(Hear, hear.) That
was a proof or what might be expected from the judi-
cious repeal of taxes, and, taken with the result ofthe re-
ductions in 1842, justified the present expectations of the
Government.—(Hear.) He could assure the Right
Hon. Gentleman the Member for Devotiport, that if Pro-
vidence blessed the country with seasons of average pro-
ductiveness, they would be in a condition to leave it in
the hands ofthe House in three years to say whether they
would abandon or continue the income-tax. The question
now before the House was the same as in 1842; namely,
whether they would continue the income-tax to meet an
increased expenditure, and to enable them to afford great
national relief.—(Hear.) It was necessary to look to the
nature of most of our present taxes, and to the circum-
stances and time in which they were imposed. They
were impased in periods of war, when it was not neces-
sary to regard the effect which they might have in re
stricting our commerce with foreign nations ; and their
sole object was to raise from our own subjects the money
necessary for the national defence. Those taxes had
been continued in a long peel, d of peace to maintain the
nationel expenditure ; and it was not surprising that
they should now be found but little adapted to the
altered circumstances of the country in respect to
foreign trade and domestic industry. That being the
case, although he admitted that the income-tax was
direct and unpalatable, he thought the House should
consider whether it was not wise to continue it
fur a time longer, for the purpose of relieving the
country from those taxes which interfered with trade
and national industry.—(hear, hear.) The Hon. Gen-
tleman who move-I the amendment wished to relieve a
class from the burden of the income-tax ; but he did not
state the matter as if he so much wished an exemption
for that class, as to obtain an exemption under the ap-
pearance of more equal taxation.—(!lear.) What was
the Honourable Member's objection? He (Mr.
Roebuck) said that the real and funded pro-
perty ought to bear the burden, and that property
which was not realised, ought to be exertipt. That was
the argument which was offered when the tax was first
imposed. Bat Mr. Pitt's answer was, that it was wrong
to arrange taxation so as to cause capital to be diverted
from one line of investment into another, to ensure more
profit. If you said that land and funded property should
be subject to the tax, which other capital was not sub-
ject to, you gave an encouragement to the selling of land
and funds, and the investment of it in trade and cum
meree.—(Hear, hear.) Now he (the Chancellor of the
Exchequer) would ask where was the injustice
of continuing this tax, which was for the ob-
ject of a direct and actual relief of the
public generally, from the pressure of taxes to
which they were now subject?—and those were taxes
which did not press more upon the man of fixed pro-
perty than upon the professional man. The Hon. Gen-
tleman himself would be as much benefited by the relief
as the capitalist or landlord. He would, equally with
the public in general, be benefited by the reduction of
the sugar duties and the repeal of those open glass. But
was the arrangement possible to secure that every man
should make a full return of his income from every
source? The Noble Lord opposite (Lord J. Russell)
objected that the tax was inquisitorial—would it be less
so if the proposition of the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Roe-
'‘rick) were adopted, or would the public feel it less
odious :ban the lion. Gentleman said it was, if it
were extended to every man?—(Hear, hear.) It was
now extended to a very limited portion of the public.
But the Hon. Gentleman would hare every man make
the return upon oath. The Right lion. Member for Do-
vonport told the House, that he would not consent to
that. He (the Chancellor ef the Exchequer) concnrred
in the Right Hon. Gentleman's decided opposition to
that expedient.—(Hear, hear.) For years past the Le-
gislature had been endeavouring to abolish oaths of
that nature. As for instance in the Customs and the
Excise, which had been found to be wholly ineffectual.
Let the lion. Gentleman suppose what the effect of his
proposition would be. When the tax was first imposed,
it applied (as lie, Mr. Roebuck, proposed) to every per-
son, and the product was 15,000,000 It now was so .
touch limited, that it produced only 5,000,0001.
The flon. Gentleman had said, what Reif quite inap-
plicable to the case, that the test of insurance which was
applied to clerks in public offices would serve as a test
for the incomes of other persons, He could assure the
Hoe. Gentleman that no such test was applicable.
[Mr. Roebuck said he had not said any such thing.]
To come now to what had been said by the Noble Lord
on the subject of the auction duty. It was to him matter
of regret that the Hon. Gentleman the last Chancellor
of the Exchequer was not in his place, for if that Right
Hon. Gentleman were at the Noble Lord's elbow, he
would tell him that the objections to that duty were
strong and pressing, and that he would have recom-
mended its repeal when he held office, if he could have
suggested a means of meeting the deficiency. He thought
that the Noble Lord, with all his disposition to find fault
with measures proposed by the present Government,
would fled it hard to convince that Right Honourable
Getatieman, the Member fur Portsmouth, that they were
wrong in submitting the auction-duty for repeal. He
did not think either that the Noble Lord would bo dis-
posed to coalesce with the lion. Member for Lincoln, in
calling for a repeal of the duty upon insurance, in pre-
ference to those taxes now -proposed for repeal. He
would not now enter into topics which would bring on
a lengthened discussion of details. Shortly before the
time when he would have to go into the whole subject
of the present measure, the sugar question would be
brought under the discussion of the House by a motion
of which an lion. Member had given notice. On this
subject the Noble Lord opposite was altogether opposed
to him (the Chancellor of the Exchequer.) The Noble
Lord would equalise the duties, which, in his (the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer's) opinion, would encourage
slavery. It was, in his opinion (as we understood),
quite another question in respect to cotton, to encourage
the cultivation of which was not so great an encou-
ragement to the slave trade as the cultivation of sugar.
But, as he said, he should reserve those points connected
with sugar until the time should arrive when, the subject
being fully before them, they would be enabled to discuss
it in all its details. It was sufficient to know that,
generally speaking, the House was not disposed to object
to the resolution placed in the Hon. Chairman's hands.
It was enough for the House to decide whether con-
tinuing the property-tax • for a limited period was a
desirable measure. The Noble Lord had told them that
the tax was liable to Induce fraud to enable parties to
avoid making proper returns, but the Noble Lord forgot
to mention those taxes which were not liable to fraud.
Would the Noble Lord tell him whether there had been
as much fraud induced by the income-tax as the Excise ?
Whether it had been so often evaded as the duties of Excise?
Whether there was a greater temptation in the one case
to make false statements, with a view to being relieved
from a small portion of taxation ? Whether there was
not an equal, or more temptation to evade a duty which
produced a large and more beneficial result to the party
committing the fraud ?—(Hear.) Set the fraud on the
one side and the fraud on the other, and he could not attri-
bute to this one particular tax that degree of liability to
fraud which might attach to another. Fraud operated
more or less upon every tax that was imposed upon the
country.—(Hear.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman
had told them that in repealing the duty on glass they
had abolished the duty on the chandeliers of the rich,
but the windows of the poor were left without tiny re-
lief whatsoever.—(Hear, hear.) The Honourable
Gentleman must have spoken upon the subject
without having first made himself acquainted
with its details, or he would have known the duty .on
chandelier glass was infinitely greater than the duty on
crown glass.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. and Learned
Gentleman, therefore, could not have given the subject
due consideration.— (Hear, hear.) There not appearing
to be ary disposition to maintain any other subject than
the one mentioned in the resolution, he thought he
should best consult the convenience of the House, and
promote the advantage of fair discussion, by reserving any
observations he might be inclined to make till the
period when the sugar and other customs' duties should
come befbre the House.—(Hear.)
Mr. C. WOOD expected the Right Iron. Gentleman
who last spoke would have given some details to show
the grounds on which he hoped that, during the course
of the next three years, those sources of revenue which
were left would so far increase as to enable them to
take off the income-tax.—(hear, hear.) He expected
to hear something more than a mere general assertion,
that in souse cases the reduction of the duty on an
article had been followed by an increase on another. It

was a principle to which no one in that House could
object. But the whole question turned upon w hat the
Right Hon. Gentleman hal stated, that a judicious
selection had been made in the articles to he reduced.
Was the selection so judicious as to warrant an ex-
pectation that the revenue would rise t p such an extent
us to justify the expectation that the Government
would be able to get rid of this impost at the end of
three years. Now, he thought, in the absence of any
attempts to show this, either bY the Right
lion. Baronet on Friday night, or by the Right Hon.
Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer on that
night, which articles were likely to produce this increase,
it was only left for him to meet an assertion by a
c..unter- assertion. He said, then, there was no reason
able ground for expecting such a rise in the revenue.=
(Hear, hear.) Ile thought that the experience of tee
last few years showed that the hope .expressed by the
Right Hon. Gentleman was not quite so well-founded as
the Right Hon. Gentleman was pleased to say it was.
When the income-tax was proposed three years ago,
trade was in a reduced state, and the tax
was not likely to realise an extraordinary
large sum. Since ;then, however, things had
changed, profits had considerably increased, and hence
the returns to the • revenu would be nearly deuble what
was termerly realised. But he believed the income- tax
was acquiesced in upon the assurance repeatedly made
in that House by the Melte lion. Barone', that it was in-
tended to decrease a deficiency in the public Exchequer,
and so soon as the deficiency was made up, the impost
was to be diseentinued. Now, they saw from this that
the tai was founded upon a tae of things which existed
no longer, and, although anoth( r assurance was held out
that it was to be continued for three years
only, there was every possibility of its being
made ultimately permanent. Ile thought Hon. Gentle-
men had said, however,- that it was desirable the tax
should he kept under their control, and that at the ex-
piration of three years they would have the power to
reconsider it, but he confessed this was all he had heard
to induce him to believe that the tax would be of a tem-
porary, instead of a permanent character. At the time
the tax was first imposed there was a deficiency in the
revenue of two millions and a half ; and he was pre-
pared to say that this .was not a sufficient defi-
ciency to justify the imposition of a tax of
so oppressive a character. But as •he had
said before, the House and the country, relying on the
temporary nature of the tax;consented to allow its oppo-
nents to remain in a minority, when the question was
first brought forward. Had there not been such a pro-
mise held out of its non-continuance he very much
doubted whether it would have met with the slightest
approbation. It was stated when it was first brought
forward that the tax pressed more on the rich than the
artisan. This was not the case, for the experience of
the last three years had proved that the income tax was
a burden on the employment of the population of
the country. There was another objection to
the tax. It was confined to England. Why should
an Irish gentleman, possessing an income of 5001. a-year, be
relieved from paying the income-tax. There was no reason
why the rich man in Ireland should not contribute his share
of the tax as well as the rick man in England. In this coun-
try there was some want of employment, but in Ireland the
want was painfully great. The Right Hots. Baronet, how-
ever, exempted the rich Irish gentleman from the tax, and im-
posed upon him another burden, which induced him to spend
his money in other parts of the world. Now, in no country
was it so desirable that capital. should be introduced as it was
in Ireland, where there was a large demand for employ-
ment, and, to meet this demand, a very considerable
capital would be required. The rich gentleman was exempted
from ,the income-tax, and in its stead was a burden which
pressed more or lesson the great body of the people. They.
were told that in the reductions made on various articles of
consumption they would derive a benefit equal to an equivalent
for the income-tax. Now, they had had some experielce
upon this of late, but he would defy any gentleman to get up
and tell him that the country had derived any
very material benefit from the former reductions
made by the Right Hon. Baronet. The Government had
taken credit to themselves for relieving the country from
certain duties, but it struck him very forcibly that his Noble
Friend (Lord John Russell) was entitled to participate in this
triumph ; for it would be remembered that his Noble Friend
voted with him when he made a motion, last year, for re-
ducing the duty on wool, while Hen. Gentlemen on the other
side of the House swelled the majority which defeated his
tention. It was not a little remarkable that, on refer-
ring to the list of articles on which there had been a falling off
in the duty, it would be found that there was no material in-
crease in the consumption. It was still more remarkable that
in the articles upon which no change whatever had been
made, a very considerable increase was observable in the re-
turns of the imparts. In the import duties delivered, he found
that with the exception of coffee no increase whatever had
taken place in the articles, the duty on which had been reduced
by the last tariff. In tin there was an increase, and also in
coffee, but in four other articles reduced there was no increase
whatever—that was in camomile, boots and shoes, corks, and
damasks. There was one article, however, in which there had
been considerable increase. He found there were 600 tons of
copper ore raised, he believed, by slave labour.—(Loud
cl.eers from the Opposition benches.) When they came to the
other great articles of consumption—those articles with which
the Right Hon. Baronet did not deal—they found a large and
considerable increase. There was a great increase in the im-
portation of oranges, India sugar, molasses, tea, currants:, in
which no reduction had been made in the duties. in raisins,
an article of immense consumption, there had been a large in-
crease, notwithstanding the heavy duty imposed on them. The
same increase was visible in cigars, sponges, ginger, and other
articles. It would be observable that this increase was not
attributable to the reduction of the duty, but on account of the
great prosperity of the country.—(Great cheering from the
Ministerial benches.) Ah, but this prosperity was not in con-
sequence of the small reduction of duty, but it was caused by
circumstances. They had had, for instance, cheap corn, An
increase had been made in the imports to China ;
and really, altogether, this prosperity was attributable
to causes not at all under the control of the
Government. The impost was proposed to be continued, to
enable the Government to make experiments in taxation ;
quite a different reason to that assigned three years ago, and it
was necessary that they should now form their conclusions upon
past experience. Now, this past experience of the last year
or two, made it evident that the reductions proposed by the
Government were not of a nature to make an important alte-
ration in the revenue of the country. It was necessary that
they shots]." satisfy themselves on this point, before they sanc-
tioned the continuance of this tax, as they would find it would
become a permanency, without their being able to help them-
selves. He was aware that some Honourable Gentlemen
behind him were favourable to its continuance, but he
believed the majority of the House held a contrary opinion.
Now, he wished to go over the Right Honourable Baro-
net's statement. In the first place, in reference to the ex-
penditure. It amounted, last year, to 48,700,0001.; and it
was proposed this year to increase it one million. He con-
curred in the necessity of this increase,for the additional fortifi-
cation of our ports would require a large expenditure.
The navy, as far as he was able to judge, would require
augmentation; and, under these circumstances, he could see
no reason why the increase should not take place. The Right
Hon. Baronet stated the receipts, from ordinary sources, to be
47,900,0'01., and from the income-tax, 9,700,0001., making a
total of 57,600,0001. The total expenditure for next year
would be 49,700,000/., leaving a surplus of 3,400,0001., and
with that sum the Right Hon. Baronet proposed to deal. He
entirely concurred in the statement of the Right Hon. Baronet,
that they ought to leave the consideration of the China money
out of the question allogether.—( Hear, hear.) The Right
Honourable Baronet, therefore, very properly omitted it.
The Right Hon. Gentleman, with a surplus of 3,400,0001.,
proposed a reduction of duties to the amount of 3,310,0001.,
thus leaving himself a surplus of 90,000/. Now, the items
upon which the Right Hon. Gentleman proposed an alteration
might. be divided into two classes. Upon one class he reduced
the whole of the duty ; and, so far as that was concerned,
there was a total loss. This class included glass, the smaller
articles in the tariff, goal, and the auction duty. With respect
to the latter duty, he had not heard any strong
argument in favour of its reduction. He regretted that
his Right Hon. Friend the late Chancellor of the Exchequer
was not in his place, for if he were he believed that it would
be found that the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) had
rather gratuitously assumed that he would approve of the
selection of the auction duty as a fit item for reduction. He
should not say anything in opposifon to the proposal with
respect to coals, unless it were that he could not
reconcile the wisdom of taking off the duty new,
with the reasons alleged for imposing it two
years ago. Upon these articles there would be a diminution
of revenue amounting to two millions, and the Right Hon.
Gentleman had not given them the least notion as to how he
expected that that deficiency would be made up. He had as-
sumed an Increase of 500,000/. upon the Excise, but he (Mr.
C. Wood) did not see the smallest ground for such an assump-
tion. Again, what right had they to expect a great mcrease
in the receipts from the Customs? hoped that the
existing prosperity would continue and even
extent. He would not now argue the whole question of the
sugar duties—he would not repeat the arguments against the
but there was no probability that it would do s•s to a sufficient
distinction made between slave-grown and free-grown sugar,
but would deal with the question solely as one of revenue. He
did not, however, understand the 70,000 tons of British clayed
sugar which the Right Hon. Baronet expected to receive.
Great difference of opinion had been expressed by great au-
thorities in reference to that subject. If the 70,000 tons were
East India sugar, then it might be urged that the duty on West
and East India sugar having, been equalised, and on the faith
of that equalisation capital having been sent out to India, large
manufactories established, and preparations msde for car-
rying on an extensive trade with this country, the
parties who were engaged in such speculations
had a right to complain of the conduct of the Government.—
( Hear hear.) On the other hand, if it were true that the East
India Sugar would come in, net as white clayed sugar, hut as
something else, then he anticipated that the benefit to the re-
( Hear, hear.) It was quite clear
venue was scattered to the winds. They were driven to the
necessity either of admitting that hardships were inflicted on the
East India speculators, or that there would be a loss of revenue
that if the proposition
of the Government were carried
ttohatthaet amount
tt
out, it would not be less
than 100 per cent. The Right Hon Gentleman stated that
the highest quantity hitherto imp need for home consumption
was 207,000 tons, and it would be found that 171 pounds per
of
the l6doiff,oocre oln.c
was about 40 per cent.; and he believed —e
of duty upon British colonial sugar
head was the greatest consumption which had ever been known
of late years in this country. Taking the population at
18,030,000, 210,000 tons would appear to be the maximum
amount consumed. The two statements very nearly agreed.
Now the Right Hon. Gentleman calculated on an increase of
43,000 tons beyond that amount ; and if that. increase
were not realised, the Right Hon. Gentleman would lose one-
fifth of the income which remained from that source. He an-
ticipated that the increase was one which could not possibly be
obtained within the year. He contended, then, that neither
from the Excise nor from the Customs was there the slightest
reason to expect such an increase in the revenue as would
enable Parliament to take off the income-tax at the end of
three years. He had not the slightest doubt that if the sugar
duties were dealt with upon different principles, the income
derived from that source might be much increased. They
had not as yet derived the full benefit which might be secured
from that source. He believed that if the Customs' duties
generally were dealt with in a proper manner, the income-tax
might be taken off at the expiration of three years; but if that
were not the case, there was no hope of obtaining such a result,
and Hon. Gentlemen opposite might rely upon it that they
would have to pay the income-tax all their lives. The
result of the present sYste'n was to obtain only the
minimum of the revenue. If the House ef Com-
mons did not interfere to prevent the continuance of
this system of indirect taxation, there was no alternative but
direct taxation. No other means would exist of paying the
public creditor except the direct payment of the income-tax.
It would be impossible without such a resource to make the
revenue equal to the expenditure of the country. It was im-
possible to deal with the income-tax without combining with
it other questions ; and he wished Hon. Gentlemen to be
warned in time as to the consequences of the system which
Hon. Gentlemen had adopted and were now pursuing. Let
the-question be fully and fairly discussed whether or not the
income-tax was to be considered the permanent source of re-

venue. Let that question be discussed on its own grounds, and
let them not be led, step by step, into a position from
which it would be utterly impossible for them to re-
cede. He believed that the course adopted wculd
leave the financial affairs of this country in an im-
proper state. One of the causes of attacks made
upon the late Government ,arose out of the posi-
tion of the revenue. Numbers were interested in the public.
credit and locked with a jealou, eye to the state of the revenue,
and when the present Government came into lower they pro-
posed, in order to remedy the evil. the imposition of the in-
come-tax. The revenue was sufficient—the evil was carried,
and a surplus bad been obtained. But would they wish it to he
said if, when they had submitted to this burden of three years,
he were again starting on the same course, when the Hon. Gen-
tleman proposed a system which would realise at best a sur-
plus of only 90,000/. Yet such he believed would be the
result of the financial course of the Government. The Right
Hon. Gentleman calculated upon 15,000 tons of foreign clayed
sugar, producing 42,0001., 5 000 tons of foreign muscovado,
producing 116.000/., and 2.3,00) tons of British clayed pro-
ducing 375,000/. This made up the 43,000 tons upon which
he calculated, and which would increase the consumption far
beyond any hing ever known in this country. But upon these
13,000 tons depended no lets than 911,01 K)!., of which
amount, if the increased consumption did not take
place, the revenue would of course be deficient.

lie would suppose that the in tease would be half what had
been calculated ; still there would be a deficiency of half-a-mil-
, lion. But even supposing the whole were I eal,sed, there was
one saurce of expenditure ohich ought not to be overlooked.
Reports had been made by Government Commissioners recom-
mending the construction of hat Inure of refuge on the south-
eastern coast, and it was es' imated that four millions would be
necessary to complete the work. Hu contended that no delay
ought to take place in commencing those works. It was Incum-
bent on the Government to begin within the year, anti half-a-
mi'lion at least would be required fur that purpose.
lie considered that the income-tax being continued for a
limited period was a less evil than imposing new taxes. He
did not think that voting for the income-tax on this ground
was acting at all inconsistently with opinions which he had be-
fore expressed. He eoeld only say, with regard to the amend-
ment of the Hon. Member for Bath, that if the income-tax
were intended to be a permanent measure, the proposition of
the Hon. Gentleman might be worth consideration, but as the
tax was to be for a limited prod only, he did not think it was
necessary to make any modification in it.
C lone) CONOLLY said, that judging from the limited
period during which this tax had been in operation he thought
it would be good and round policy to continue it.—( Loud
laughter.) I the first place the income-tax relieved the
country from the deficit which the Hon. Member for Halifax
had warned the Government from falling into again, and
relieved them from many evils which they had experienced.
The Hon. Member for Halifax appeared very muds to bewail
the possibility of having so small a surplus as a million
and a half. He (Colonel Conolly) certainly preferred this to
a deficit.—( Hear, bear.) The income-tax had been the
means of restoring the stability and the credit of the country.
It had enabled the Minister to reduce the interest on the public
debt. That wus indisputable. He thought that in the position
in which he -was placed lid' was called upon to state why he
thought the income-tax ought to be continued.—( Laughter.)
Ile considered that it was a benefit to the country from whence
he came.—(Loud laughter.) It was a benefit to that country,
for it had relieved the great distress of the landed interest
there.—( Roars of laughter.) It was a positive and distinct
relief, and, up to the present hour, it had progressed in
abating the distresses of that country. That was distinctly in
consequence of the restoration of public credit. There were a
great number of landed proprietors in Ireland, friends of his
own, who had been distinctly enabled to relieve their estates.—
( The Hon. Gentleman was here greeted with a roar of laugh-
ter Irons all parts of the House, which completely drowned the
remainder of the sentence.) Why, did Honourable Gen-
tlemen consider that no advantage ?—( Continued laughter. )
All these advantages had been produced by the very measure
which it was now by Hon. Gentlemen opposite sought to con-
demn. lion. Gentlemen might laugh, but he could assure
them this was the case. The landed proprietors of Ireland
could now give employment to the labouring poor, for those
landed proprietors could now raise money at four per vent.__
(Great laughter)—whereas formerly they were compelled to
pay six per cent.—(Continued laughter.) The income-tax,
therefore, had relieved them from their embarrassments.—
(The House was here again thrown into convulsions of laugh-
ter.) He considered that the measure was a great blessing,
and was calculated to invigorate industry and promote com-
merce. Railways had now sprung up, together with other
schemes of enterprise, "for capitalists,' said the Hon. Gen.
tteman, "have now a probability of certain remuneration for
their money." (This somewhat novel expression of
the Honourable and Gallant Officer drew forth a
burst of laughter, which was continued for some
time, and renewed again and again at intervals.) It was very
easy for Hon. Members to laugh, but he thought their derision
would cease when they were compelled to listen.—( Hear,
hear, and more laughter.) What had been done during the
present session showed that there was a• desire in this country
to conciliate Ireland, and to do everything which was calcu-
lated to increase the prosperity of that country—( Hear, hear,
fram Sir Robert Peel)—and he believed it would go far to
cement the union between the two countries. For these rea-
sons he would vote for the proposition of the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman at the head c f the Government.
Mr. G. BANK ES was not surprised at the light-heartedness
which had been exhibited by Hon. Gentlemen opposite, seeing
that the cause of it was the prosperity of Ireland. He trusted
that that prosperity would go on increasing, and that ere long
a sense of justice in the people of that country would induce
them to insist upon bearing, equally with this country, the
burden of the income-tax ; for he could assure his Hon. Friend
that there were now in various parts of England depressions as
serious, and distresses as alarming, as those which had been de-
scribed by his Hon. Friend as formerlyexisting in the sister island.
The income-tax was imposed at a time when the 'agricultu.
ral interest was in a more flourishing condition. The Noble
Lord, the Member for London, and the Hon. and Learned
Member alluded to, made' reference to that interest. They did
not let it pass without -remark, though his Right Hoe.
Friend at the head of the Government, and the Right Hon.
Gentleman, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, did not in any
way allude to it. —(Great laughter. ) And he perceived this
with regret, because that such distress existed had been con-
veyed to the Government in plain terms, and they left it to
the Government to apply such remedy as was in their power.
Tine Hoe. and Learned Member for Bath spoke of the pre-
sonderating power of the agricultural interest, though he
thought the Hon. and Learned gentleman bad not chosen
the happiest time for such an allusion.--( Laughter.) But,
if such was the fact that they had such influence, permit
him to say he was unable to find any trace of it.
Why, in the present Budget, everything was given
to the commercial and manufacturing interest,
and nothing to the agricultural.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon.
and Learned Member very properly observed, that the greatest
attention was manifested and paid to Manchester and Glasgow,
in the important reductions which had been made, which he
(Mr. Bankes) as an agriculturist (and he believed he spoke the
feelings of the agricultural interest) saw with pleasure.—
(Hear, hear.) There was no jealousy of the manufacturing
interest felt by the agriculturists. And, allow him to say,
it was net only since the reductions which had been made that
a preponderating influence had been manifested towards the
mercantile and commercial interest, but in the increase of ex-
penditure the same objects were in view.—( Hear, hear.)
For why was the navy estimate to be increased by upwards
of a million? Why, because in China and the Pacific there
were found new outlets and new opportnnities for extending
throughout the world that power they happily possessed.
It was to protect their commerce that this million was to
be contributed and the agriculturists paid their share of the
burden cheerfully. —(Cheers.) Was their army to be re-
duced ? No. Was that because the army was wanted in the
agrionitural districts? In the county he represented he did
not believe there was a single soldier. The army was re-
quired for the colonies. But did the agricultural interest com-
plain of being called to maintain it?—(Hear, hear.) By no
means. If then it was said they were a powerful and prepon-
derating influence, it could not at least be said they were a sel-
fish one.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord, the Member for
London, who alluded to them, did not hold out to them that en-
couragement which they might wish to receive in case they
did not desire to continue their preponderance for the present
Government. The Noble Lord dealt with them more ten-
derlyt
of triumph than hedidreph t
with
the silkotherinterests,ratdeHe and
said
he alluded
that aliudedwith
something before
the monopoly was removed that trade was subject
to great alternations of prosperity and depression, but at last
the question was settled, but the whole of the silk trade in
London were ruined, and if he did not mistake it was while
the Noble Lord was in power, that there was a ball at which
the Queen was requested to attend, for the purpose of relieving
the distress of the Spitalfields' weavers. The silk trade con-
sisted of a small number of persons, and they were easily over-
come, but that was not the case with the agricultural interest,
and the ruin of which would include 7-9ths of the people of
this country.—(oh, oh.) That was his belief. The case of
the silk weavers therefore was no encouragement to the agricul-
turists. It was admitted the other night, by the Hon. Member
for Durham, that if they had a free trade; corn would be some-
thing dearer than it was at present; for, in the Channel
Islands, where the trade was free, it was dearer than it was
here, so that they had that advantage from the protection which
was complained of. With regard to the present vote, as it
seemed to be agreed to on both sides of the House, he had no
choice left but to agree to it, though, looking at the stateof the
agricultural Interest, he should be sorry to see a permanent in-
come-tax.—( Hear. )
Mr. WAR RU itToN said he agreed with the Right Hon.
Member for Halifax that if the duties on articles of consump-
tion were reduced, there would not b 3 any necessity for the
income-tax.--( Hear, hear.) He also agreed with him as to
the impolicy of a differential duty on sugar in favour of the
West Indies. They were now going to increase that diffe-
rential duty, because every one knew that almost the whole
quantity of sugar from the West Indies came in the state of
Muscovado sugar, but that which came from the East Indies
was clayed sugar, so that that was a practical increase of the
differential duty of 103. by 2s. 4d. But he would not have
risen on this occasion but for the allusion which had been made
to what had fallen from him a few nights ago, by the Noble
Lord and the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. Now, all he
would say on the present occasion was, that he believed the
prosperity of the country would be greatly increased by a
permanent system of taxation—( Hear, hear)—because
a far greater proportion of the tax, when directly levied, would
come into the public revenue than when it was levied indi-
rectly.—( Hear, hear.) And he thought he saw some symp-
toms of an approach to such,a system, as contradistinguished
from the indirect system, during the present debate ; and if
the former were adopted, he thought it would be wholly to the
advantage of the country, and that the great mass of arti-
sans and small traders would he particularly benefited by it
But then he came to the consideration of in what manner that
system of direct taxation should be carried on ? In condemn-
ing the system of direct taxation, as it was now carried on, ho
entirely agreed with the Noble Lord in characterising it as
very unwise.—( Hear, hear.) The present plan of taxation,
as regarded income and property, was to lay on the tax for a
short period ; that was snaking a short annuity and a long
one subject to the' same degree of taxation. Now,
what could be more unjust than that? It was condemnatory
of the tax to lay it on for a short period. Now he would
shortly refer to the substitute that was proposed by the Hon.
Member for Bath. He did not care whether the income was
levied for professional toil or manufacturing toil ; but what he
would say was this, that the system of taxation was unequal
when they levied the same amount of per tentage on income
gained by professional toil, as on income derived from laud.
Now the substitute the Honourable and Learned Member for
Bath proposed was this—he would take it that they were
about to lay an income-tax on for one year, said the Hon.
Member for Bath. On the man who had property in land or the
funds, he would lay on a certain per centage heavier than on the
man who derived his income frem manufacturing or
_.
profes-
sional toil. Why did he draw these distinctions?
had Wh
an Why it
be for these reasons, that the person
in
for Bath
in-
terest in land for the one year, had a reversionary
impossible, the plan therefore of the
ll
that be drew from
was utterly impracticable, and the conclusion
its expiration. Now, to tax a perseonn
for a short period was
that was, that to lay on an income-taxmust levy it with justice,
unjust. If they had it at all, they
they made it permanent, and to
and they could not do so without
mow
any
disposition. If he
do that the House did not senee viho
reversionin t e res t after
was
of the proposition of the Hon.
,ffwe looking
uslld o support Illdp:ptpohotsrahi tyteieol tcaontbdoui
appearedtt
hositnes
thought there was any chance
of the agricultural interest, it was not too much to suppose
that they should expect that something
he saw no chance of that,thoeashvoauttelhdhaoet
pArleeAstmern.b et
srp r: preeAßs iYtLieoAnci
thoughtcoming

in the Budget in their behalf, especially when the large sur-
plus tha Government had in hand was considered. He re-
!fretted very much that it appeared not to be in the power of the
Government to relax some portion of that taxation that would
relieve them. He hoped that the Right Hon. Baronet would
not be mistakan in supposing that his measures would do good,
not_ only for the agricultural but the manufacturing live-
. rests; he thought, however, from what ho had scan, that
the greatest disappointment was felt with respect
to the course pursued by the I2ight Hon. Baronet on Fr,cl:sy
list. The House was now called upon to renew the inaome•
tax for three years, and according to the statements of the
Right lion. Gentleman he hoped that at the expiration of that
period he would be enabled to give it up. Ho ( Mr. l'altner)
trusted that the Right Honourable Baronet's hopes would be
realised, and that he would find himself correct in that respect.
The income-tax as a permanent one would be an intolerable evil.
When the discussion of the income-tax took place in 184'), he
recollected what he said on that occasion, and that was,
that
these who derived their income from the funds or real pro-
perty, had a greater stake in the country than those who de-
rived it from professions or manufactures, and that therefore
they ought to pay a greater rate of duty. He c msidercd the
income•tax, as it was now levied, most unjust. He thought,
however, if the proposition of the Honourable Member for
Bath were carried into operation, it would have the
effect of excluding those who obtained their in-
comes from professions or inanu'aetures from the
operation of the tax altogether, and that was never intended.
Ile thought that this must be the case, for, unless he was mis-
taken, if these words were left out of the resolution, the par-
ties asses ed under schedule D would be exempted from the
operation of the tax. lie agreed, however, that those parties
ought to be charged in a ratio somewhat different from the
holders of real property. lie could not vote for a proposition
which would exclude them from the assessment of the tax
altogether.
Mr. M. GIBSON said, from what had fallen from the Hon.
Member who last sat down, and from the lion. Member for
Dorsetshire, in reference to the alleged neglect of the agri-
cultural interest, he must say, in the language of the Right
lion. Secretary of State for the Home Department, with re •
spect to Ireland, that " conces,ion had been carried to its
utmost limits."—(" Hear," and laughter.) It would be highly
satisfactory if the Hon. Gentleman and his friends would point
out the particular grievances of which they complained. The
universal remark which he hail heard made was, that the agri-
cultural interest enjoyed great exemptions from taxation, and
that in distributing the national burdens, particular care had
been taken to throw the largest amount of them on the com-
mercial and manufacturing community, and leaving, in many
important items of taxation, the agricultural interest untouched.
But he would not dwell on this subject, as the question imme-
diately before them was the income-tax. lie felt a little diffi-
culty as to the course he should take on the proposition of the
Honourable Member for Bath. Nor could he go with the
Honourable Member for Kendal, though he agreed with him
that when a man got rid of his income he got rid of his
income-tax also.—( Laughter.) There could be no doubt
of that, and that he supposed was what Ls Hon. Friend meant.
—( Laughter.) If a man could be supposed to be immortal,
and to have enjoyed his income all his life, he would also have
paid the income-tax in perpetuity. But the more fortunate
man who got lid of his income in three or four years, would
not have that cause of complaint, as he would only have paid
his income-tax for three or four years. Bat he (Mr. M. Gib-
son) could not look on the matter in this light. It appeared to
him that there was a wide difference between an income made
by professional and mercantile exertions and real property.
But still he was not disposed to agree that the trading commu-
nity ought to be exempt from paying the income-
tax. He did nut think that offices and trades ought
not to pay some amount of income-tax on their re-
turns; but the most reasonable course would be, if sonic plan
could be devised to effect it, to capitalise income. Ile believed
that had been done in former times. He was informed by his
Hon. Friend the Member for Montrose that it was done in
the propeity-tax of 1692, and he referred to the statute-book
to find if there could be any po sibility of such an enactment,
and he found his Hon. Friend was correct. He found there
that, in trade and manufactures, the capital employed was
valued. Here the duty was computed on the interest which
would be received on such capital. Thus, if a man's goods,
or mill, or machinery, was valued at 1001., the interest of the
capital was computed at five per cent., and the person paid on
an income of 51. Now, in 1692, the Government was in ,
great want of money, and unwilling to remit any poi on
of taxation. At that time there was actually a tax on births
marriages and deaths, on widowers and bachelors ; yet even
then it was not thought necessary to put the same tax on in-
come as was imposed on real property. Now, if that was done
before, why could it not be done again ? He thought it would
be a very reasonable proposition to move for a Select Com-
mittee to inquire whether some amount, and, if any, what
amount ought to be placed on trades, professions, gnd offices,
and also to inquire whether some less vexatious and inquisi-
torial mode of laying it on professions might not be suggested ?
He thought that met the whole case. Disapproving as he did
of imposing the same amount on income as on property, he
should support the proposition of the Hon. Member fur Ilath,
but he should have preferred letting the present resolution
pass, and when the Bill was in Committee, the Hon. and
Learned Member might have takers the opportunity of pro-
laising by way of amendment some practical plan like that he
had alluded to.

Mr. MILES said he had not on a former occasion objected
to the income-tax, because he felt that unless it was imposed
there could not possibly be any reduction of taxation that
could benefit the country ; nor could any great reduction i.e
made unless it was kept on for some time longer. If the income-
tax gave additional vigour to the industry of the country, and
at the same time enabled them to relieve acme of the direct
burdens on agriculture, he believed it would be a blessing—
(Laughter)—aye, a perfect blessing—( Great laughter)—if it
was imposed only for a limited time.—(Laughter.) If it
was proposed to make it permanent, he for one would
say, No ! He did think that the Right Honourable
Baronet had introduced this measure with the b .st
intentions, but he must say he had not considered all the in-
terests connected with the question. He found commerce and
manufactures both flourishing, at least as compared with the
tato or three years past; but lie found agriculture in a de-
pressed state, and yet there was no attempt indirectly to re-
lieve agriculture at all. lie was not one of those to stand up
in that House and ask the Right Hon. Baronet to take off the
malt- tax, for, in the first place, his surplus would not allow it ;
and, in the next place, he did not wish that the agriculturists
should monopolise the whole of the reduction that could be
made. But when the Right Hon. Baronet was asking for the
continuance of a tax which amounted to 3,400,0001., he did
think that agriculture should be considered as well as
manufactures and commerce. He thought, considering the
party who immediately supported the Right Hon. Baronet,
and the small remission which bad been made in direct taxa-
tion, a great benefit might hare been conferred on agriculture,
and on the nation in general, by diminishing the county rates.
Great good would also be done by placing them under a better
system of management. Agriculture was greatly depressed,
and agriculture was not relieved ; but he must say this, that
he gave credit to the Right Hon. Baronet for such remissions
of taxation as those on raw materials, on cotton, and on glass.
But he did think that the Right Hon. Baronet would also
have turned an attentive ear to the remonstrances addressed to
him, he hoped in a proper form and a proper spirit—not by
Noble Lords or Members of that House, but by farmers, know-
ing and practically exercising the trade of agriculture. When
they stated their depression to him it could not be but all
the past feelings of the Right Honourable Baronet must
be touched.—(Laughter.) They have nothing but their
representations, and the voices of their own Members in that
House, and he had hoped that the Right Hon. Baronet would
have been touched by their statements. But he was sorry to
say that their hopes had been dashed from them. Though
they contributed to the property-tax no less than '2,400,000L,
out of an amount of 4,900,0901., yet no one single tax had
been touched from which they derived any immediate benefit.
The whole remission was given only to manufactures and
commerce; by that agriculture would no doubt be
indirectly benefited, for he had always maintained that
no interest could be benefited without producing
an effect on all. But the only time the Right
Honourable Baronet the other night mentioned the agri-
cultural interest was when he announced the remission of the
auction duty. But they were not asking him, as landlords,
for any reduction of taxation, as he believed it was the land-
lords alone who would benefit by this remission, because when
agricultural produce was sold there was no tax upon it. It
was for the tenants he spoke; and from the letters he had
received, he could assure the Right Hon. Baronet there was a
general gloom in the counties around the metropolis, who of
course had had an opportunity of reading his powerful speech
the other night. He could assure the Right Hon. Gentleman
that the greatest despair prevailed in these counties. They had
looked to him t protect their rights and now their distresses
were passed over without vouchsafing a single farthing of
relief after imposing on them a tax of upwards of 2,000,0i0i.
All he could say was that agreeing as he generally did with
much that was said on both sides of the House—(Great
laughter)—he yet certainly could not sit down with that kind
of spirit which would tamely submit to everything a Minister
chose to dictate.—( Hear, hear.) Even if he stood alone he
would at a future period give the House and those county mem-
bers who had been returned by their consti-
tuents for asserting certain principles which he
hoped and trusted they would carry out—he would give them
at a future period the opportunity of stating whether in this
great remission of taxation the agricultural interest was or was
not to be benefited. Before he sat down he merely wished to
suggest to the Right Hen. Baronet that in imposing the in-
come-tax again he should give to the tenant-farmer a right of
appeal. At present they were taxed on half the amount of
their rent, but had no appeal against the charge, whether they
made any profit or not. Ho therefore wished them to have
that right of appeal allowed them. Agreeing on the whole
with the principle of a property-tax, he would sit down, hoping
that this measure would be greatly and generally beneficial,
yet at the same time expressing his belief that in bringing it
forward the agricultural interest had been perfectly overlooked.
Mr. V. SMITH thought the agricultural Members ought
to take a straightforward and decided course, and should not
follow at the heels of any Minister. He believed the agricultural
condition was one of great distress, but they should have voted
for his Hon. Friend when he brought forward a motion for in-
quiring into the burdens which peculiarly affected agri-
culture. Ile admitted that there were some bur-
dens which peculiarly affected agriculture, in the shape
of local taxation, but Hon. Members opposite were
all silent regarding them, except the Hon. Gentleman who had
just sat down. Yet a most valuable paper had lain for two
years on the table of that House, descriptive of the extent to
which local taxation was carried on. He would not give to
agriculturists the same answer as they usually received when
they complained of their burdens,—to cultivate the land better,
for he thought they had very great reason to
reply that they could not cultivate the land without
capital. We were now about to saddle ourselves with a per- '
manent property-tax, and it would be idle in him to rail against
it, fur under the circumstances of the case he feared it was
but too necessary. The lion. Member fur Keadal..had given
reasons for the continuation of the income-tax, which he con-
fessed were to him wholly unintelligible.
The lion. Member
for Donegal had given reasons for its continuance,
have to pa it.—
which were
y
perfectly intelligible,
i: because hewould
and peace of Ireland
( Hear, hear.)
had been adverted to T-i
In theprosperity
speech from the throne,
and had been since adverted to in language of
triumph by lion. Members opposite ; and if such were the case,
he saw no reason whyhethile income-tax should not be extended
to Ireland.--(Mr•
here gave marks of dissent which
caused general laughterS in the House.)—He thought the Hon.
Baronet had, with his usual adroitness, barely alluded to the
4511 articles in the tariff upon which duties were reduced or
abolished ; but the House should recollect, that from these 450
articles the revenue lost 320,000/.—( Hear, hear.) He was '
of opinion that the Right Hon. Gentleman should have, some
days prior to his statement, laid upon the table of the
House a list of those articles which he intended
to affect by the proposed measure. He could not refrain from
saying, that considering how many of the constituencies of
Hon. Members were affected by this diminution or abolition of
duty, the House had been rath-r taken by surprise.—(Bear,
hear.) At this late hour of the niOt he would not trouble
the House with any further observations.
Sir R. PEEL assured the Right Hon. Gentleman that to-
morrow or next day he would lay on the table of the House
papers which would specify the whole of the articles now included
in the tariff, and on which it was proposed to remove the duty.
He had stated generally that a remission of duty would take
place in the raw materials of manufacture. Surely the Right
lion. Gentleman did not expect him to go through the whole
450 articles? He thought by so doing he would have wearied
the House, and the mention of many of the articles would

rather hare pi orokid laughter. He was sorry to hear from his
Hon. Friend that he had considered him ireiensilsle to
the distress which prevailed in many parts of the country.
The Hon. Member for Sorncisetshire had stated, and stated
truly, that he (Sir Robert Peel) had been touched at the dis-
tresses mentioned by members of the agricu'tural Ceputation
which waited upon him.—( Laughter. ) Yes, he had been
touched with the statement. made by members ofehe deputa-
tion. His Hon. Friend (Mr. Palmer) said he di I not express
any sympathy with the sufferings of the agriculturists. But,
on a previous evening, he had stated must explicitly his belief
that in some parts of the country severe agricultural distress
prevailed. But he thought this distress was in a great degree
local, and in a great degree attributable to the influence of the
seasons. In some parts of England, during the early part of
last summer, the drought was very great, and the hay and
turnip crepe had suffered to a very great extent, but yet he
could not say that this distress was universal, fur in the north
of England, in Scotland, and in Ireland, the harvest was rather
abundant. He wished it was in his power to provide any
effectual remedy for the distress which prevailed ; but the
House must know it was very difficult to provide a
remedy for local depression, particularly when that
depression was the result of unfavourable seasons.
Ile had heard it stated that he had no sympathy with the
sufferings of the agricultural classes. Nov, he begged to re-
mind his lion. and Learned Friend that in his address to that
House at the opening of the session, he did express his belief
that very serious distress did prevail amongst the agricultural
classes.—( Hear, hear. ) But that distress last. year was par-
tial, and principally owing to a great drought. The hay har-
vest in some districts had been a failure, but that was
confined to certain districts. It had not been felt
in Scotland or in Ireland. From the former Collo*
try there had been no complaints of the harvest ;
and in the latter the crops had been very abundant. But if
the crops had failed in those countries, he doubted if he could
be called on to provide a remedy against such an occurrence.--
( Hear, hear. ) He sincerely wished lie could suggest some
mode of relief for local distresses in agricultural districts.--
( Hear, hear.) I3ut it would be very difficult, if not impossible
to do so. One suggestion had been offered to him as a remedy
—namely, that the malt-tax should be repealed. Now he did
believe there were certain taxes that did press heavily upon.
certain agricultural localities ; but with regard to the
malt-tax, he would say, he did not think it was
such a one as that the repeal of it would afford
the relief suggested.—( Hear, hear.) lie (Sir R. Peel)
was opposed to the repeal of this tax in the year 1835 for the
same reason, namely, that such a step would not give general
relief to the agricultural c asses.—(Hear.) It would perhaps
have given relief to one class of pe.sons, namely, the brewers
—(Laughter)—but general relief it certainly would not give.
—( Hear, hear.) Nothing could be mo.e able than the manner
in which his Hon. and Learned Friend had made his eiase-
went ; but he (Sir R. Peel) did not think his 11n. Friend
bad succeeded in showing that the malt-tax was hue which bore
with peculiar pressure upon the agricultural districts.—( Hear.)
Neither could his Hon. friend say that the income-tax pressed
heavily upon the agriculturists, for this reason, that it was not
paid by any one engaged in agriculture who had a less income
than 3001. a-year.—( Hear, hear.) But again -he would say
that he admitted that local taxes did press heavily upon certain
portions of the community ; but it would be very difficult, if not
impossible, for the Government to interfere with it-4 Hear. )
He would say that he did think her Majesty's Government had
acted judiciously in defraying the expenses of criminal pro-
secutions in some instances out of the Consolidated
Fund; but it would be very imprudent if they inter-
fered with those taxes which were levied for the purpOse of
making and repairing roads an l bridges.—( Hear, hear.) For
it was very important that such taxes should be under the
control and matiagernent of the people of these localities who
had to pay them. _(Hear.) This, however, he would say,
that it was his firm conviction, that if that House supported
rtleiseelneeasthu reeseehaeimhatlduitpyroptseesd, the ultimate relief that would
at large would be found to be more
really beneficial than if he had repealed all local taxes,
and had them out of the Consolidated Fund.
—(Hear, ',sear, and cheers.) If his Hon. Friend was of
opinion that it would be expedient to repeal the malt-tax, he
certainly must be embued with a sympathy for a peculiar
class.—( Laughter.) But the repeal altogether of the duty on
glass and on raw cotton would be found, eventually, to be
most beneficial to the agricultural classes.—( hear.) Indeed
he could not conceive a class who would be more benefited
by those two measures than the agricultural labourers. When
the heavy duty should be removed from that material made of
cotton-wool, which was generally worn by the labouring agri-
culturists, they would then be enabled to purchase their clothes
at a low rate, and surely that would be a boon. Then
with respect to glass, surely when the duty upon an article so
necessary to the comfort of all classes should be reduced from
Is. to 3d. or 4d., was it not clear that the landlord, the tenant,
the peasant, and the labourer would derive benefit from it ?
(Hear, hear.) With respect to the proposed reduction in the
auction duties, he begged that the house would not take a
htsty view of that, until they had the proposition fully before
them.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord opposite had
taunted hint, in respect to this tax, with repealing a
tax which nobody had objected to. But he hoped the
Noble Lord would read the opinions of Sir Henry Parnell
and the Chairman of the Stamps and Taxes Department, upon
this subject. He (Sir R. Peel) would move this evening for
certain returns in reference to the fees paid at certain auction
sales, and then the Noble Lord would see if it would nut be a
material benefit to that branch of commerce to haveit proceed
in future unclogged by any tax.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble
Lord quarrelled with him (Sir H. Peel), because the army and
navy estimates were so high, but he hoped to be able to satisfy
the House and the Noble Lord that those esti-
mates were not larger than the present necessities
of those branches of the public service demanded.—(Hear.)
However, upon this subject he would not dwell, as it would be
very ungrateful in him to quarrel with one whose support he
understood he was to have in his proposal for a renewal of the
income-tax for a further limit ; and, therefore, he would say
no more uion that subject.—(Laughter.) When the Noble
Lord had first said he should oppose that measure, he ( Sir R.
Peel) should confess he was most agreeably surpi ised at hear-
ing the Noble Lord say, La a subsequent period, that lie would
vote for the continuance of it— (Laughter)—and he begged to
assure the Noble Lord that, great as was his surprise at
hearing this announcement, it was not greater than the plea-
sure he now felt at having the honour of his Lordship's support
—( Renewed laughter)--and let him add the hope that nothing
he hail said that evening would have the effect of shaking the
Noble Lord's resolution.—(Continued laughrer.) Perhaps,
after all, if the Noble Lord and his colleagues were sitting upon
those benches—( Pointing behind him amid much laughter)_
his Lordship would find that, no.matter from what source de-
rived, the addition of the 5,200,000/. of the income-tax a very
comfortable thing—(Loud laughter)—and would . gravely
declare that that tax was for the public benefit, and ought
to be continued for a further limit.—(Loud laughter.)
Certainly they might have a discussion in that Committee,
when the Hon. Member for Kendal brought forward his mo-
tion—(Laughter)—when the Hon. Member for Bath brought
forward his motion—(Laughter)—or when his Hon. Friend
the Member for Somerset brought forward his motion.—( Con-
tinned laughter.) lie certainly thought that the House had
sects enough from the preliminary debate to come to a right
conclusion upon the subject. Then, with respect to funded
property, it was said that it was a great injustice to tax it, as
the country had entered into an engagement with regard to it
that it should not Ise taxed ; and when Lord Sidroouth attempted
to introduce such a measure in 1803, Mr. Pitt got up and said
that it would be a violation of the public faith to allow funds raised
on a distinct engagement that they should be free from all
claims, to be subject in the same manner as other property to
the burdens of the country. He found it necessary, therefore,
to draw a distinction between permanent and temporary in-
comes and the property entitled to claim exemption. But
the opening up of that subject would induce a discussion
which he was anxious then to avoid. But he could not resist
saying that in the mode of testing the exemption in such a case,
the circumstances attending the scrutiny would be just as
stringent and as inquisitorial as any that had taken place under
the operation of schedule D. 'I hey would have to go into
examinations for the purpose of determining the nature of
the property ow which the duties were to be levied, and as
he had already said, a new inquisitorial tribunal would be
established, much more onerous than that which had been
complained of ; and he would just ask the house if, from the
very nature of the tax, it could be otherwise ? He very much
doubted, in the case of such taxes as glass and cotton, whether
the sum remitted could be said to be abstracted from the per-
manent interest of the country, because the remission of such
taxes gave an impulse to the creative powers of their trades
and manufactures. In respect to wines and articles of luxury,
they might escape that tax by not consuming the articles ; but
its respect to the articles reduced—let them say cotton and
glass—they were articles of manufacture of which they were
a component part, and by the increase of labour its which, the
workman would be enabled to buy absolutely necessary artteles,
as wearing apparel, cheaper than before, thus amply competes
sating for the general pressure of the income-tax on the com-
munity. What was it that he would propose afterwards? Why.
that a person having 5,0001. a year should contribute
about 1481. towards the maintenance of the credit
of the country, and he would ask them that day, not merely
to increase the expenditure, but to make an experiment, and
if that should not succeed—if the country should not derive any
immediate benefit from it, they might afterwards reconsider
their present determination. He (Sir R. Peel) was asked by
the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Devonian ( Sir
G. Grey), if he could give any assurance that the i come-tt!z
would expire in three years? He answered to that, as he did
on the other night, that he calculated that the taxes removed
would increase the consumption of other articles; but he was
free to say then, :in experiments of that kind, three
years was rather a limited period—rather a short
experiment, and he would own that he would rather himself
have extended it to five years. He had good ground for enter-
taining a rational expectation that at the end of three years he
would be at liberty to discontinue the income-tax. He told the
Right Hon. Gentleman that his ground was this. Thet epolsu-
lation of the country was greatly on the increase,dabend h
greater.
con-
sequent consumption of articles paying duty
ewroLel
They had
The population of the country was on thnedinh
they application
a vast amount of surplus capital,
iaannduisuteiyreasthedeirdemmaannudfaioc-r
oftu rtehsawt
ocuardi
increase;
aysaer: otubsayb ra n c
shouldhe
increase the consump-
tions
would find that the trade of last
of country. They iaorfe
looked at declared value
the
dvanced, if they
labour, and the demand for labour would
year had greatly a
of 1844 as comparedf with
etxhpeodretcslarwaesd v4a41;120,f01;,-)t31..;
!Int 11841434
the declared value o the
the declared value was 50,650,0001., being an increase over the
declared a
surplus value of 1843 of 5,838,000/. in the course of the year.
V
capital applied to the internal improvement
oNi'
fthecountry, he thought it a rational prospect
that at the end of the three years there would
be such an increase of revenue that the House might
be safely asked not to continue the income-tax for a
longer period. On the Ist of April, 1848, the income-taa
would expire, but the duration of the income-tax, subject to
the half-year's tax of 1845, would extead over four years. He
foreseec not
h m imight
hate
remainven tisnmliBg4h9t onceccuersstaoaryrdelrhetheHosuuser-
peolunsld
might be of opinion that he should not be held to an engages
ment, that at the end of the specified time the tax should at.
cessarily cease. He wouhl only say that he had reason to
think there would then be a fair opportunity to consider
whether or not it would be for the public advantage that the
tax should then cease, or that it should be continued for the
purpose of affording a revenue. He certainly made the
experiment with confidence, and whatever happened, he was
sure the house would be determined to maintain the
public credit. The Right Honourable Gentleman the
Member for Halifax thought that it was possible the
sugar duties would not answer the expectations formed
of them. They might not recover se rapidly se
might be wished ; but he would remember that for the two
years to come. Then there was an additional revenue of
600,000/. for which he did not take credit. Suppose a falling
off in the sugar duties in the course of next year ; the rest of
that sum would, of course, be available to set off against any
.diminution in the sugar duties. These were grounds whi.4l!"
it was impossible to expose to any accurate caleulation
quite admitted, with the Noble Lord,' that his experimenta
But as to the
might be attended with some loss of money.
considered
that
political economy of the Noble Lord,rito be. condemned
which
reductions of the tariff were
necee7aly
nue, he must say, when
because they occasioned _isis lossof rtiataiieon
of
it,
that,
on
such a
the Noble Lond made h
subject, it was a most extraordinary declaration coming
as the Noble Lord was, to the credit
from a person, entitled
had found concurrentlyof-being a fsoruscier. If they