The Sun.
London, England, 1842-03-16 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS, MARCH 15.

The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'Clock.
The Great North of England Railway Bill was read a
second time.

Mr. BIDDULPII presented a petition from the Dean
and Chapter of Durham against the Great North of
England Railway Bill.
MARYLEBONE VESTRY BILL.

Mr. GORE presented a petition from the district of
St. Mary, in the parish of Marylebono, praying that the
House would pass this Bill.
NATIONAL FLOATING BREAKWATER.

On the Order of the 13;3, for the second reading of
this Bill being read, •
Captain FITZROY said he wished to draw the atten-
tion of the House to the subject of the Floating Break-
water, that they might inquire into its probable
defects. He wished to draw their attention to this
subject, because he believed that wood would
not float in the sea for more than two or three
years, unless protected by some metallic substance.
It would also be subject to the action of worms. An-
other objection to the principle was, that the chains by
which the breakwater were to be moored were soon cor-
roded by rust, and rendered useless. In proof of that,
he need only mention that the buoys now placed on the
coast by the Trinity House were obliged to be examined
every six months, and the chains and rings by which
they were fastened never lasted more than six or seven
years at the utmost. It was for this reason that he felt
it his duty to call the attention of the House to the
subject.

The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to
be committed.

PARISH OF ST. AIARYLEBONE.
Mr. MACKINNON, having moved the Order of the
Day for the second reading of the St. Marylebone Pa-
rish (Paving, &c.) Bill, presented a petition, signed by
600 ratepayers of the parish, in its favour.
Sir B. HALL presented several petitions, among
which was one signed by Lord Nugent, against the Bill.
Mr. MACKINNON said that it was not his intention
to raise any discussion on the Bill at present. He would
only, observe that, in moving the second reading of the
Bill, he was influenced by the fact that two points had
been abandoned respecting it which gave general satis-
faction :—one related to the committing of
a job by the vestries, respecting the salary of
the Treasurer ; the other referred to the qualification
of voters. Under those circumstances he would make no
further opposition to the Bill.
Sir B. HALL was greatly surprised that the Hon.
Gentleman should have brought forward a Bill of so im-
portant a description as his was, without stating some
reasons for so doing. It was a Bill, in fact, for the re-
peal of all the local Acts referring to that parish. He
would call the attention of the House to the petition
presented by the Hon. Gentleman in favour of the Bill.
No person could be more desirous than he (Sir B.
Hall) was to pay the greatest attention to the
petitions presented to that House, but he felt himself
bound to say that the petition to which he referred on
the present occasion was got up under gross fraud and
false statements. He had received several letters which
he would read to the House to show that such was the case.
The Hon. Member then proceeded to read extracts
from letters addressed to him by several individuals,
stating that they had been induced to sign the petition
by misrepresentations of its purport, it having been
stated to them that its object was to obtain a reduction,
or an equalization of the rates ; they would not have
signed it had they been aware that its object was to do
away with the local acts. One writer stated that ha I
he known its true character he would not have given his
sanction to so infamous a Bill. These letters the Hon.
Member offered to place in the hands of his Hon. Friend,
and he apprehended, after what he had stated, that
little credit should attach to the signatures to the
petition.—(Hear.) Before his Hon. Friend brought
in a Bill of this description he should have stated
the grounds on Nhich it was proposed. As far as he
could understand the Bill, it twnded both to • alfect the
local Acts, and—(The Hon. Member was here inter-
rupted by a message from the House of Lords, summon-
ing the Speaker to hear the Royal assent given by com-
mission to certain Bills;
ROYAL ASSENT.

The SPEAKER, on his return, communicated to the
House- that he had been to the House of Lords to hear
the Royal assent given by Commission to the Van
Dieman's Land and Duchy of Cornwall Bills,
ELECTION PETITIONS (GREAT MARLOW).
The following Members were sworn to try the merits
of the petition against the return of the borough of Great
Marlow :—Sir W. Heathcote, Mr. J. W. Childers, Mr.
A. CAmpbell, Hon. W. Cowper, Sir John Mordaunt ;
Sir J. Y. Buller, Chairman.
The following Members were sworn to try the petition
against the return for the borough of Weymouth :
the petition against the return for
:
lion. C. C. Cavendish, Mr. Thomas S. buncombe, Sir
G. H. Smythe, Sir P. Egerton, Mr. Archibald Hastie,
Mr.
e. Baily,
lollowing :1;1 eAllurb. elr% I%i
wereS tseZrrnt on Ptah the Committee
to try the merits of
the borough of Clitheroe—Sir R. H. Inglis, the Hon.
Berkeley, Sir C. B. Vere, Mr. W. Evans, M. C. R. TT
Colville, Mr. S.sOgle; Mr. J. IV.
""g'g, Chairman.
MARYLEBONE PARISH BILL.
The debate on the Marylebene Parish Bill was then
resumed.
Sir B. HALL, who was almost inaudible in
the gallery, in consequence of the noise which
prevailed in the House, continued by saying that
he objected to the clause in the Bill which made
the rates payable in advance. He understood that
by the Bill the Vestry was to be compelled to levy a rate
for the entire year on the Ist of January, and to that he
objected. He also objected to the Bill because there
was no provision made for the relief of the poor. The
Hon. Baronet proceeded to complain that the sense of
the parish had not been fairly taken in reference to the
present Bill. He believed that a large majority of them
were opposed to the Bill; and as he saw no justifiable
reason for its introduction, he should move that it be
read a second time that day six months.
The amendment having been put,

Mr. MACKINNON rose to support the original mo-
tion. He would put it to the House whether the time
had not come for introducing. some such change as that
contemplated by the Bill. The Hon. Baronet had ex-
pressed his satisfaction with the late and the present
Vestry of Marylebone ; but was the. Honourable
Baronet aware that the late Vestry had been

obliged to borrow a large sum ? and that the
present vestry had contracted a debt of 20,000/. That
vestry was now paying an interest upon the sum
they had borrowed of 1,200/. per annum. One of
their body had been prosecuted for a libel, and the
expenses of the defence were not paid out of that indi-
vidual's pocket, but the parish was made liable by
the vestry for the entire sum. Now nothing, in his opinion,
could be more monstrous than such a mode of proceeding.
The object of the Bill was to place the mode of election
by ballot in the vestry on the same footing as the election
of members of corporations. The object of the
Bill was to adopt the principle of the Reform Bill,
and he was satisfied that his Hon. and Gallant Friend
was himself aware that would be its effect
The opposition which had been offered to the Bill was
entirely of a political character, as its framers only con-
tended for the principle adopted by the Reform Bill,
of voting in a compound ratio.—(Bear, hear, hear.)
Mr. WAKLEY rose amidst cries of " Divide," which
_ _

rendered his opening observations inaudible. The lion.
Gentleman who had just sat down expressed his asto-
nishment that the Honourable Member for Marylebone
was not supplied with a great number of arguments
(y
against the Bill. He r. Wakley) marvelled at his
modesty ; he asked the douse to allow the second read-
ing of the Bill, without stating one reason why the Bill
should be carried. Besides, this was the cast-off Bill
of another Hon. Member, the Member for Middlesex,
who, with an honourable feeling, had abandoned
the measure.—(Hear, hear, hear.) The Hon. Gen-
tleman opposite had taken it up, and he (Mr -Wakle,y)
hoped it might prove a source of torment to him
before he had done with it. Ile hoped the House would
express some sentiment. on the question at issue between
the petitioners to this Bill and theVestry.—(Hear, hear.)
The petitioners to the Bill had met in private; they had
not dared to call one public meeting. The Vestry was a
popular one elected by ballot ; every rate-payer had a
right to vote, but a qualification for vestrymen was ne-
cessary ; and so it was, that out of 120 vestrymen 60
were noblemen or gentlemen of liberal professions ' • yet
the vestry did not work well.—(Hear, hear.) Was
the Honourable Gentleman opposite aware that the
vestry to which he belonged bequeathed a debt of
120,000!. to the present vestry, who had reduced
that debt to 53,000!., and had reduced the rates from 4s.
4d. to 3s. in the IL—(Hear, hear.) The fact was, how •
ever, the vestry had committed two unpardonable offences '
in the eyes of the supporters of the Bill—they bad
attended to the wants of the poor, and had obeyed the
law. Those were the grave and unpardonable offences
they had committed. If the House permitted the second
reading of this Bill without one word being addressed
in favour of it, they ought to be despised and detested
by the people. This case really did demand the atten-
tion of Parliament, and he (Mr. Wakley) implored lion.
Gentlemen opposite, before they gave their votes, to re-
-11• Jet, well on what they were doing. They called, theM-
selves Conservatives, and he (Mr. Wakley) could not
object to the term at all, because he was as anxious as
they were that everything should be preserved that
was good, at the same time that everything should
be destroyed which was bad.— (Hear, hear.) But what
kind of conservatism was the support given to this Bill?
lion. Gentlemen opposite conformed to the Reform Bill,
and the Reform Bill gave two Members to Marylebone--
the Gallant Commodore and another Hon. Gentle-
man. There was a furious contest at the election
for the Borough, and those two Hon. Gentlemen were
returned to that House. Did either of those two Hon.
Gentlemen support that Bill ? No. The parish was re-
pr.sented in that House, but both the representatives
were hostile to the Bill, and yet the Hon. Gentleman
expected his supporters to vote for it. That
wits not the way to support the Reform Bill,
and if that were the nature of the support
day could all calculate what would be its fate, if
t4y bad the opportunity of destroying it. This case
ought to impress upon Members of the House
the necessity of looking at private Bills. The present
Bill proceeded from a reckless band of parochial job-
bers. The old defective and incompetent Vestry, who
wished to get a reinstatement into power, and to defeat
the authorities of the parish who had violated no law—
had obryed every legal enactment, and had managed the
attairs of the parish iu a frugal and prudent
manner. But, says the Honourable Gentleman, have
they not been exposed in the newspapers-
-have not condemnatory paragraphs appeared against
them ? Yes, they have, and he hoped that the Hon.
Gentleman did not know the author of them.—
(teughter.) There were Honourable Gentlemen oppo-
site connected with literature, and they must know
lioW easy it was to get inflammatory paragraphs
into newspapers. There was nu difficulty in that. But
where were the facts—were there any facts ? He tells
yoU that the mode of election ought be changed,
ana he complained that there were five places fixed
where parties could poll, while the law only gave the power
to iippoint four inspectors—in fact, that there was one
limb of the system incomplete. What was the Hon.
Gentleman's demands ? Why, to cut off the other four.
'Laughter.) That was bad surgery—(Laughter)--
an he could tell him that, as a professional
in 1. He trusted the House would reflect on what
tI4 were asked to do iu this case, and unhesitatingly
reject the present Bill. Ho was in the parish of Maryle-
bone almost every day, and was in the habit of meeting
hundreds of the rate-payers, and he could declare posi-
tively that he had not found a single individual
wh supported the Bill, or believed that there was the
slidlitest necessity for the introduction or adoption of
that measure. Had not the lion. Gentleman some
misgivings as to the motives of those who prompted him
to introduce the Bill ? There had only been one small
skirmish, and yet he says there are two parts of the Bill
which lie consents to give up. One of these was a nice
lit* job for giving a treasurer I,OOOL, in order to
protide for some cousin or relation, or some noodle
who could not get his living by his own ability:;
the:other was the qualification, and the present Bill pro-
posed that the qualification should be raised from 401. to
60L? and no person could act as a guardian of the poor
whop had not 601. a year. He hoped and trusted that
the Ilion. Gentleman, and those who prompted him to
bring in this most flagitious and flagrant Bill would be
defeated, and that it would be rejected by the House of
Coremons.7-(Cheers..).

Mr. HARDY said that the Hon. Gentleman had
stated that no persons in Marylebone were to be found
favourable to the Bill, but he (Mr. Hardy) met with
several who supported it ; and the only question now
was as to the details. A Bill had been passed
forty-seven years ago on the subject, and certain
otUr acts had been passed to explain that Bill.
Than came the act called Hobhouse's Bill, and then
the Police Act, and then Mr. Taylor's Act, all of which
atfeCted the provisions of the original Bill ; and, in con-
sequence, 48 clauses of it had been rendereduseless. He
was himself a recent ratepayer, and he could find nothing
definite on the subject, unless he went through the va-
rious Bills. With respect to Hobhouso's Bill, it required
eight inspectors, and appointed five polling places.—
(Cries of " Four, four.") The next thing was that the
auditors of the parish were in alms-houses, and he
asked if that did not require alteration. With
respect to the vestry the inhabitants of Marylebone
had been obliged to file a bill against it, and they suc-
ceeded.—(Cries of " Divide, divide.")

Sir C. NAPIER said that the Al vestry had loft a
debt on the parish of 168,0001., and that the present
vestry reduced it by 53,000/. On what just grounds
then, he wanted to know, should they seek to turn out
the Vestry which had effected so much good.—(Cries of
'• Divide, divide.")

Mr. LEADER said that there were two or three pa-
rishes in the borough which he had the honour to repre-
sent; which felt deeply interested in the measure ; and
he trusted he would therefore be allowed to say a few
words upon the subject. He would first state his doubt
as to the accuracy of some of the statements made by the
Hon. Member for Lymington (Mr. Mackinnon). Ile un '
derstood that the facts mentioned by the Hon. Member
were not facts at all, but were mere statements
taken from an article in the Morning Post.—(Hear,
hear.) He trusted that the House would not be led
away by accusations of that kind. They were now
called upon to repeal an Act, under which the parish of
Marylebone had been well governed, and a large part of
its debts paid off ; and they were asked to pass the
present Bill, which was called a private Bill, but
which in reality materially affected public interests and
great principles. The Bill under their consideration
contained 275 clauses, and it was impossible that the
House could now be prepared for entering into a full con•
sideration of their merits. If they assented to
the second reading of the Bill, they would subject
the parish of Marylebone, and the parishes of St. James's
and St. George's, Westminster, to very great and need-
less expense ; because he could assure Hon. Members,
that though the Bill was now read a second time, there
would not be the slightest chance of passing it
through Committee before the end of the Session,
in consequence of the opposition it would meet with, and
the number of clauses it contained. It would therefore
be a mere waste of time, and be only to send the Bill
before a Committee. He believed the Bill had been got up
by a few interested parties who wished to see restored
the old self-electing vestry system. The measure was
not called for by the parish at large, and instead of doing
good he believed it would create a great deal of mischief.
It appeared to him to be a mere caricature of legislation,
and he hoped the House would not consent to the second
reading of such a Bill.
The House then divided. The numbers were—
For the motion 206

Against it
Majority for the second reading — 75
Mr. }'ERRAND gave notice of his intention to move—
That any person or persons who should attempt to induce
others to give false evidence before a Committee of that
House should receive condign punishment; also that that
House would bear harmless any working man who
might give evidence before a Committee of inquiry
with respect to the frauds committed by manufacturers;
and also that he would move for a Select Committee to
inquire into the existence of various practised by manu-
facturers and masters of collieries upon persons in their
employ.
Mr. P. )3 ORTHWICK gave notice that early after

Easter, he wonld call the attention of the House to the
state of the metropolitan roads, with a view to the better
lighting of the same by the respective parishes through
which they passed.
PUBLICAN'S LICENSES.
Captain ROUS gave notice of his intention to move
for leave to-bring in a Bill to facilitate the transfer of
Publican's Licenses.
INTERMENTS IN TOWNS.
Mr. MACKINNON moved the appointment of the
Select Committee to improve the Health of Towns by
preventing Interments within their precincts : Mr.
Mackinnon, Mr. D'Eyncourt, Lord Ashley, Colonel
Fox, Mr. Thomas Duncombe, Mr. Evelyn Denison, Sir
William Clay, Sir Robert Harry Inglis, Mr. Ainsworth,
Mr. Beckett, Viscount Mahon, Mr. Cowper, Colonel
Acton, Mr. Kenable, and Mr. Vernon.
Mr. WAKLEY said, that as the Committee had
been directed to pay due regard to the rights of the
clergy, he hoped they would also pay a proper regard
to the rights of parish clerks and sextons.
The motion was then agreed to. •
RURAL POLICE.
Mr. WILLIAMS then moved for Returns, made
up to the latest period, of the Police established
in each county in England and Wales, under
3 Vic. c, 93, and 3 and 4 Vic. c. 88, stating,
in detail the date when the police was established ;
the number of parishes, and the population of each,
according to the last census in such police dis-
trict; the number of chief constables, or superinten-
dents, appointed in each county; and the salary
and other emoluments received by each ; the num-
ber of station-houses and strong rooms, and the
expense. of building, furnishing, repairing, and
maintaining the same in each county; the amount of the
police-rate levied, and the totalexpenditure for the main-
tenance of the Police wider the said Acts in each connty
during the last year.—Agreed to.

IRISH JURORS.
Mr. O'CONNELL moved for a copy of the instruc-
tions given to the respective Crown Solicitors, on each cir-
cuit respecting the challenging ofJurors in Crown cases,
by the following gentlemen, when filling the office of At-
torney-General in Ireland :—Mr. Richards, now Baron
Richards ; Mr. O'Loghlen, now Sir Michael O'Loghlen,
Baronet ; Mr. Brady, now Chief Baron Brady ; Mr. Pi-
gott, late Attorney-General for Ireland; Mr. Blackburn,
now Attorney. General for Ireland ; specifying the
particulars in which they differ. Return of the
number and names of the Barristers appointed
in the present year to be supernumerary prose-
cuting Counsel on each circuit in Ireland. Re-
turn of the number and names of Barristers so
appointed who have declined to act. Return of the
number and names of the Barristers who were
employed last year as supernumerary Crown Counsel,
and who are not included in the foregoing Returns.
—Agreed to.

ANATOMY BILL.
Mr. Alderman COPELAND asked if the Secretary of
State for the Home Department had received any Re-
port from the Commission appointed in 1840, to investi-
gate the working of the Anatomy Bill, and if he would
lay any such Report before the House?
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that the Government
had not as yet received any Report from that Com-
mission.

THE TARIFF.
Sir C. LEMON wished to know whether it was the
intention of the Government to reduce the duty on foreign
tin ? and what it was intended to do in relation to the
duty on copper ore? if the 5 per cent. intended to be im•
posed, was to be levied on the value of the copper ore,
or whether it was intended to be levied on the value of
the metallic copper which might be smelted from the ore?
Mr. GLADSTONE said that it was the intention of
the Government to alter the present duty on tin, so as to
reduce it to 101. a ton. A higher duty had been pro-
posed for tin than for other other metals, on account of
the dues payable on tin to the Duchy of Cornwall. With
respect to the second question, he had to
observe that it was the intention of the Go-
vernment to do away with the system of smelting copper
in bond, and therefore the duty of 5 per cent. ad valorem '
would be levied on the ore. With regard to the third
question, it was a matter for consideration; but the pre-
sent intention of the Government was to levy the 5 per
cent. ad valorem duty on • the market value of the ore,
and not on the market value of the copper, which might
be extracted from it by smelting. While on this sub-
ject, he would take the opportunity of correcting one or
two errors of the press, which had crept into the copy of
the tariff, which had been laid on the table. The first
error was in the fourth schedule, relating to seeds. It •
was intended to continue the duty on linseed, on rape
seed, on hemp seed, and on flax seed, of Is. per
quarter on the whole. There was another error
of a trifling nature in reference to gypsum mid
plaster of Paris. It was intended to continue the
duty on these articles, whereas the tariff had
been printed as if it were intended to admit these arti-
cles duty free.

INCOME TAX.
Mr. BARING rose, pursuant to notice, to put a ques-
;.ion—By what machinery, and under what arrangements,
it is proposed to enforce the payment of the income tax?
He begged to assure Honourable Gentlemen that
he would not address to the House anything but what
was merely necessary for the purpose of explain-
ing the object of his question.—(Hear.) The
house would recollect that on Friday last, in
the full statement which the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman made in Committee, there was one point,
and one point only, upon which the Right Honour-
able Baronet afforded to the House no informa-
tion, and that point referred to the machinery by which
he meant to apply the powers which he intended
to exercise in the collection of the tax which
Her Majesty's Government had thought fit to propose to
be laid on the country on the present occasion. The
question was put to the Right Hon. Gentleman at the close
of the debate the other evening, but there was no wish to con-
tinue the matter longer ; and after the exertions which the Right
Hon. Gentleman had undergone on the occasion, there was no
desire to press him for further information. However, it was a
point on which the public had a right to be informed. It was
with that view that he (Mr. Baring) ventured to put the ques-
tion to the Right Hon. Gentleman respecting the omission in
the announcement which the Right Hon. Gentleman had made
He did not wish to ask the Right Honourable Baronet to go
through the whole of the small details and arrangements
which he proposed. What he (Mr. Baring) wished to
have from him was, that which formed part of the
essence of the plan which was now before the country. He
(Mr. Baring) apprehended that in all measures respecting
taxation it farmed, an essential subject of consideration what the
mode should be in which the tax should be levied, inasmuch as
the taxes took money out of the pocket of a man without con-
sulting his convenience or inconvenience.—(Laughter.) He
01r. Baring) wished, then, to ascertain what was the mode
in which the Right Hon. Hon. Baronet intended to
proceed, and what the powers he intended to give the
Commissioners—if Commissioners he meant to employ?
What were the officers on the part of the revenue which he
proposed to employ ? What powers he proposed to give thole
officers ? What was the investigation—for that was one of the
main points—what was the investigation and inquiry to
which the parties who would have to pay this tax should be
obliged to submit? He did not wish to detain the House with
any further observations, but he trusted that the information
he asked for might be gven, more especially after the an-
nouncement made yesterday from the Chair, that after a pro..
position was once before the House, the door of the House
was shut against any petition or remonstrance which the pub-
lic or the country might have to make against the tax proposed
by the Hon. Gentleman.
Sir R. PEEL said the Right Hon. Gentleman had put to
him seven questions, to which he required answers.--(Hear.)
Ho had stated to the House, on bringing forward the measure,
the general principles of the plan to which he, on the part of
her Majesty's Government, had thought it necessary to have re-
course, for the purpose of supplying the enormous deficiency
which, on entering office, he had found existing between the
revenue of the country and the expenditure. In the Bill
for raising a property tax, there were two hundred and
eighteen clauses, and the Right Hon. Gentleman thought it
would be convenient for him, in answer to the seven questions
he had put, to reply to them by stating the purport of the whole
of those clauses. He felt that he could not, consistently with
a sense of public duty, give an answer to those questions with-
out entering into explanations that could not properly be
entered into. He therefore could not answer the question,
or series of questions, put by the Right Hon. Gentleman.
The House must feel the extreme difficulty that any one pro-
posing a great measure must labour under; he had deemed it
of the utmost importance that the intentions of her Majesty's
Government should be kept perfectly secret ; he considered
that course of the utmost importance, on a measure of finance
in reference to the commercial and manufacturing interests.
As to the machinery of the plan, nearly all the officers employed
in the former collection of the tax, had ceased to exist. He did
not deny the importance of the question, as to the nature of
the machinery of the tax; it was a matter requiring serious
consideration ; but he trusted he should have the privilege
accorded to all Chancellors of the Exchequer, of selecting the
time for explaining the details of the plan. It would be per-
fectly open to the Right Hon. Gentleman, in the course of the
discussion, on Friday next, to put any question he thought
proper, but he did not think it fitting to explain to the House,
in answer to a mere question, what was the general purport of
provisions so complicated as those of such a Bill, for levying
such a tax, must necessarily be. He must, therefore, beg leave
to decline answering the questions put by the Right Hon.
Gentleman.

Lord HOWICK asked the Right Hon. Baronet whether, enter-
taining the objection he had stated, he would take some mode
or other of giving this explanation, before the House was called
on to give its assent to the plan, because it appeared to him
that the question of the propriety of granting or refusing the
tax, depended to no inconsiderable extent on the nature of the
machinery to be employed. He thought it would be a little
hard if they were expected, after hearing for the first time on
Friday next what the machinery was to be, to give, in the
course of a few hours, a vote, which once given committed the
House to the plan. Therefore he would wish to ask the Right
Hon. Baronet whether he would explain by what mode he
proposed to carry out his proposition.
Sir R. PEEL said the Noble Lord and other Gentlemen
would have, as a matter of course, the fullest opportunity during
the progress of the Bill, to obtain all the information they de-
sired, and if they thought fit to oppose it, their acceding to the
preliminary resolutions would not at all pledge them to the de-
tails of the Bill. He should certainly decline to answer the
question at present, hut he would at an early period, when he
had an opportunity of entering into the question fully, state the
general principles upon which the machinery of the Bill would
be carried into effect, and the mode in which the tax would be
collected.—( Hear.)

PO II TUGUESE CLAIMS.
Captain LA YARD wished to ask the Right Honourable
Baronet at the head of her Majesty's Government, whether the
Commission appointed to inquire into these claims were likely
to come to any decision on the claims of the unfortunate officers
and men who belonged to the Portuguese auxiliary. He had
asked this question because he knew that many Gallant Officers
and men were now in a great state of distress.
Sir R. PEEL said he sympathised with the Gallant Officer
as to the condition of the persons to whom he referred. The
Commission was appointed by the Noble Lord ; they had ad-
judicated in many claims, and were now proceeding with others.
He trusted their labours would soon be brought to a close, and
that it would not be long before they had adjudicated in the
whole of the claims.

SALFORD GAOL.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE was understood to say, that i• con-
sequence of what he had said the other evening relative to
Salford Gaol, the chaplain of that gaol had thought
fit to direct a letter to the Right Hon. Baronet, contradicting
he statement he then made. Now no one would be
more unwilling than he (Mr. T. Duncombe) to say any-
thing which would tend unjustifiably to hurt the feelings of
any man, and no one would be more ready to make apology or
reparation for such conduct than himself. But before he did
that in the present instance, he must be satisfied that he had
misrepresented the person on whose conduct he had animad-
verted, and that an apology was due to him. An Hon. Friend
of his had informed him the chaplain had sent a statement, in
answer to his remarks, to the Right Hon. Baronet. He (Mr.
Duncombe) had in consequence instituted certain inquiries of
his own, and with the permission of the House would read
the result of those inquiries. The first was a letter from the
Rev. Mr. M'Carthy, the Roman Catholic Chaplain of the gaol.
The Hon. Member then read the let er, which expressed the
satisfaction of the writer that the statements of the Hon. Mem-
ber had been contradicted, as that would give an opportunity of
proving their truth, and bringing the matter more fully before
the public. The informants of the writer were prepared to de-
pose on oath to the truth of their communications, and he was
ready to do the same for the truth of so much as he had stated
as from his own knowledge. About a month ago, he (Mr;
al'Carthy) applied to the gaoler for copies of the rules of the
prison, for the purpose of transmitting them to Mr. Duncombe.
On that occasion, be asked how it happened that for three
years he had not been called upon to attend any healthy pri-
soners ? The answer was, that the reason for not calling in the
Homan Catholic pries s to such prisoners was, that all they were
wanted for was to ass st the latter to prepare their defence.
This clergyman was told by a female prisoner, about 31 years
of age, that she had begged, at least 20 times, that the priest
should be sent for, and it was only after his conversation with
the gaoler that she received a promise that she should see the
priest before she went out to undergo her punishment. He
(Mr. M'Carthy) asked if it was true that Mr. Bag-
shaw was in the habit of preaching controvers:al sermons
to the prisoners. She replied that the beginning and end of .
his sermons were controversial. —( Hear, hear.) He ( Air.
Al Carthy was at present attending a sick woman who told him
that the sermons were always controversial, and moot ofiensive
and irritating to the Irish prisoners. On one occasion Mr.
13agshaw preached a sermon against the " Real Presence"—a
point of the Cathslie faith which was looked upon as most
sacred. At the conclusion of the sermon, one of the prisoners,
an Irishman, stood up and contradicted the doctrines of the
preacher, where spun lie was " collared by two turnkeys, and (as
the woman heard it reported) kept for a week in solitary con-
finement, and upon bread and water. She could not depose to
the truth of the latter part of the statement, as she had it only
upon rumour ; but all the rest she bad witnessed. On the
next Sunday Mr. Bagshaw preached again against the doctrine
of the Real Presence, anti was interrupted by the same Irish-
man, who said to him, " You villain, you will find out that
Jesus Christ is present in the sacrament." The writer (Mr.
M'Carthy), admitted that this language was exceedingly impro-
per; but it showed how great was the excitement
and irritation of the Roman Catholics.—( Hear, hear.)
That sermon was the one which had been described by the
other prisoners no.. of the Catholic religion. '• as making the
Papists as mad as blazes." The letter concluded by stating
that all the evidence could be given on oath. Tne Honourable
Gentleman then read a letter from Mr. Roberts, who was at
present master of the Salford workhouse, and who was also
schoolmaster of the Salford gaol. He did not mention his
name before, because he did not wish to drag his name before
the public unnecessarily. He (Mr. Roberts) stated in his
letter that a person named Thomas Smith, a prisoner, re-
quested Mr. Bagshaw to preach the sermon over again which
made the Catholics as mad as blazes, and that he, Mr. Bag-
ahaw, consented. He also stated that a person named Ferran
wished to see the priest, and was refused; that two prisoners
were looked up for refusing to attend the chapel, and that they
requested to be confined rather than attend the chapel. Mr.
Roberts also kept a journal, from which he (Mr. Duncombe)
would read a few extracts. 'I he first extract was dated Feb.,
1840, arid stated that the Rev. Mr. Bagshave, on a Sunday in
that month, preached a sermon, taking the 147th Psalm, from
verses 1 to 6, for his text, and that he spoke of the inutility
of prayer in unknown tongues, and that it was a vain formality.
On the 17th of March, 1840, St. Patrick's day, at twelve
o'clock in the day, a sermon was commenced, and which was
principally comprised of attacks on the Catholic religionS'while
one-third of the congregation were of that persuasion. The
prisoners attempted to surround him. The parson spoke of
the Jews and the Romans as idolatrous, and every person had
a right to consider them so. He spoke of several Popes as
committing the greatest crimes, and that they would do so
now, but they dared not. He then spoke of Luther; and it
was twenty-five minutes past twelve before he concluded, and
the poor prisoners' dinners were quite cold-(A laugh )—fer
their dinners had been waiting since twelve o'clock. This was
on St. Patrick's day, and a pretty treat it was for the Irish
prisoners. Ile could multiply these sermons on controversial
points. Now, this was the testimony of individuals who were,
he understood, highly respectable persons; and he (Mr. T.
Duncombe) thought, that after he had made that communica-
tion to the House, in corroboration of what he had stated on a
former day, that the House would not expect him to make any
apology to the Rev. Gentleman. The only apology that was
due, was to the poor unfortunate persons whose cause he had
advocated. He did not think the Right Hon. Baronet did
them ample justice, in not consenting to the appointment of the
Committee he (Mr. T. Duncombe) had asked for. He hoped
he would now consent to one. He (Mr. 'l'. Duncombe) was
quite satisfied that, if a fair and impartial Committee, were
appointed, they would come to the conclusion that these state-
ments were true.

Mr. O'CONNELL corroborated these statements as the
facts had come to his knowledge, and there could net be a more
respectable man than Mr. M-Carthy. He (Mr. O'Connell)
meant to give notice to-morrow that, immediately after Easter,
he should move for a Committee to inqure into the treatment of
Catholic prisoners in gaols.
Lord F'. EGERTON, who spoke in a low tone of voice, and
amidst much noise in the House, said he did not wish to mis-
lead the House, but the Rev. Gentleman perfectly denied these
statements were founded on fact. The Noble Lord then read
an extract from the Report of the Inspector of Prisons, but in
so low a tone of voice, that it did not reach the gallery. The
Rev. Gentleman stated that the only knowledge which he had
obtained of these charges was derived from what had Nssed in
that House. Previously to the debates on the subject in that
House, he was totally unawa c that any complaints had been
made. The Govei nor, whose duty it was to be pre-
sent at the se vice, and who was, he believed,
a Dissenter, utterly denied that the sermons were
of a controversial character. The Visiting Justices, com-
prising all shades of opinion, had passed a resolution, stating
that they had made inquiry into the subject, and from their per-
sonal knowledge they were satisfied that Mr. Bagshaw could
not truly be charged with a want of charity with preaching
controversial sermons, or making attacks upon the Roman Ca-
tholic religion ; that, on the contrary, his conduct had been
marked by a Christian and benevolent spirit to Roman Catholics
us well as other prisoners. The Justices also stated that they
were not aware of a single instance in which an application for
the attendance of a Roman Catholic priest had not been com-
plied with. He thought. it was due to the gentleman concerned
that this counter-statement should be laid before the House.

Lord A. LENNOX wished to ask the Hon. Alember for
Chippenham, whether it was the intention of the Government
to issue percussion locks to tho 6 0(M) troops about to be sent
out to India, and whether it was their intention to issue the
same kind of locks to the second battalion ?

Capt. BOLDERO said it was the intention of her Majesty's
Government to issue percussion locks to the 6,000 troops, and,
if necessary, also to the second battalion.
ROYAL SOCIETY OF IRELAND.
Mr. REDDING TON wished to ask the Noble Lord, the
Secretary for Ireland, whether the Lord Lieutenant had ordered
the payment of 2,0001. to the Royal Society of Dublin, and
whether that would come out of the civil contingencies, and
whether the Government had apps oved of that advance, without
havinc, first taken the opinion of the House on a vote?
Lord ELIOT said that the Royal Society having acceded to
the recommendations of the Commissioners, the Government
meant to propose the usual grant, but he could not yet say
what particular suns.
Mr. REDDINGTON said then that he would move to-
morrow for a copy of Mr. Lucas's letter.
THE FINANCIAL STATEMENT.

Mr. LAMBTON stated that a deputation from the North
was about to arrive, for the purposa of giving the Right Hon.
Baronet at the head of the Government very important in-
formation, which probably he was not yet in possession of, and
therefore he (Mr. Lnmbton) hoped he would postpone the dis-
cussion of his plan until after Easter.
Sir R. PEEL would be happy to give every opportunity to
the gentlemen who wished to meet him in conference, but he
saw no necessity whatever for postponing there-consideration of
the question.
Mr. REDDINGTON—Pcrhaps the Right Hon. Baronet
would fix a day for resuming it.
Sir It. PEEL—Friday.---(l.aughter.)
SPECIAL PETTY SESSIONS BILL.
Mr. G. BANK ES, having moved the first read n, of till
Bill,

Mr. C. BULLER slid he wished to call the attention of the
Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary for the Home Department,
or of the lion. Member for Dorsetshire (Mr. Bankes) to a
report which had reached him (Mr. C. Buller) at the last As.
sizes on the Western Circuit. It appeared that since the pass-
ing of the Prisoners' Counsel Bill there had been a general
disposition, on the part of the Judges—and a very proper dis-
position—to avoid examining witnesses against prisoners, think-
ing that thereby they might seem themselves to take the part
of prosecutors rather than to act with that entire impartiality
which became their po,ition. He believed that it was last
summer the Judges first introduced the practice of throwing
down the depositions, in ag cases, to some Counsel at the bar,e
vi ho was thus called upon to conduct the prosecution.
~.P!
county was very properly charged with the sum paid to.
tun:twin'',
sel in such cases. But it seemed that
theMeguabould:
of Dorsetshire had felt it as a great grievance that they:
the ends
be railed upon in that manner. to pay.-fur furthetrintgtbey hod
of justice, and he (Mr. Buller-j—understotiel*,.n
question 14 ,
taken measures to put an end to the pro act I
hint (lest:lir:five ..4,,9, f
adopting another course, which seemed t
ettirciealosf
aCtOthM;,l,'
The Magistrates of Dor-
every principle of law and justice. _
setshire had, he was informed,
mining prisoners over the Assize!
magistrates
did not allow,
next sessions. It appeared that the .
t 1 h d C arge upon utors at sessions o e
Magistrates, for the sake of saving the
the expenses ef pro.r introduced
etliktehethpereir
Assizes, subjected the
expense of a guinea
countiesiarid those svt
los:Counsel at the

county to the charge of another month's delay before the trial I grounds for the opinion that the belief of the contagion of the
came on. Now it seemed to him (Mr. Buller) that such a slgue had been very much exaggerated. He believed that
coarse might be attended with a worse and more serious con- ! there was no instance of the plague having been carried from
sequence. He understood that on al occasion when a party ' Egypt to India, nor from Egypt to Mecca and the Holy Cities.
had applied for an immediate trial before the Judges, it had I When the plague appeared in the armies of the East, they were
been refused unless certain conditions wete complied with. ; always removed to the desert, and, he believed, there was no
That Was an abuse in the administration of justice which had instance of the armies
,having been removed to the open dis-
neverbefore been heard of; andhe therefore felt it is duty to call i tricts, without a complete cessation of the plague resulting.
the attention of the House to the subject. although he was aware People in this country were often alarmed at receiving
o i
that he had given n notice of such an intention upon his part letters or bales of goods from the Levant, but it was
to Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary for the Home De- well known that these kind of articles were sold in the public
partraeht. He hoped the Right Hon. Baronet would think it bazaars in the East and the itlussulmans bought them ;it was
consistent with his duty to make an inquiry into the subject, detracting nothing from their value that they had been in the
and to give the House any information he possessed with le- possession of people who had died of the plague. He re-
gard to it. membered, when he was in Asia Miner, that in the neighbour-
Mr. BANKES said it would be in his power to give an hood of Smyrna there were four villages much afflicted with
answer in some respects to the questions of the Hon. Member, the plague; there was a constant communication between them
but he should not be able to answer the whole of them. The and that great city, yet there was no instance of plague iu
Hon. :Member had not stated the grounds of the information Smyrna. The same was precisely the case with regard to
which he now laid before the House, nor had he stated whether Cairo. He would now advert to the lazarets. He held in
be had better information than the public at large were fur- his hand aletter which he had received from an eminent
nished with in the columns of the newspapers of the day. The traveller with reference to the violation of quarantine in the
practice and experience of the Hon. and Learned Member south of Spain. In that letter the gentleman asked if he
should have suffidently satisfied him that the charge, as stated thought that he would be such a fool as to subject himself to
in the newspapers, could not be completely proved, because he an imprisonment of several weeks becauae he hadk been in
must be aware that ne Magistrates could, even if it were their fri..a ; he had never entered a lazaret and never would.
'desire to so, proceed in the manner which he (Mr. E. Blab. Hs
e held in his hand a series of answers to questions ad.
i
ler) had stated, and that it was not in the power of the Magis- dressed by the Consul at Alexandria to medical men
trates to preclude the jurisdiction of the Judges in the way established at Cairo. The first question was, what was their
the Honourable Member had pointed out. He had very j opinion of quarantine? To this they answered that quarantiee
c.early stated, not only that it was in the power, but I was established to preventtlieplague from penetratinginto Egypt,
that it was the duty of the Judges, when they opened the I but they believed the system of quarantine to be without utility.
Assizes, to deliver the gaol, and no Magistrate could, by any In answer to questions he had put to Dr. Allen, an English
yossibility, preclude the power which it was the duty of those t gentleman, in the service of Mehemet Ali, he was informed
Judges to exercise, and which, if they did not exercise, it would I by him that the plague might be considered, to a certain ce-
be an abandonment of duty. He (Mr. liarikes) had not any , gree,
as indigenous to Egypt. He did not believe that country
information as to the act which had been the groundwork of I was ever entirely free from it, but he had never known it to be
the matters to which the Hon. and Learned Member has re- ' imported. It was ascertained, he said, that even post mortem
(erred, and it was h's intention to have applied to his Hon. examinations had been taken without communicating the dis.
Friend to know whether he had received any information with ease. That was the statement of a gentleman thoroughly
respect to the circumstances alleged to hate taken place; that acquainted with the subject. He read another passage to show
they could have taken place in the manner stated appeared to how insecure our protections were, if the disease were what it
him (Mr. Bankes) to be perfectly incredible. He could not was said to be. The passage was to the effect, that a number
therefore, believe that the facts had been truly stated. With of bales of cotton was sent to England, which had been taken
reference to the other observation which the Right lion. Gen- from stores where the plague was raging, and the plague was
elernan had detailed, he (Mr Bankes) could give some better on board the ship when the cotton was pa ked. Now,
information the House. It had been observed by the maxis . if no disease were imported, in cases of this kind,
/rates of the county of Dorset, amongst whom he had the which frequently occurred, would any man in his senses
honour - •to hold the place of Chairman of Quarter believe that the plague was an imported infection ? If the
Sessions, that the expenses of a prosecution at the As- result of an inquiry should show that the quarantine rectrie-
sizes • had' increased to an enormouse extent. He tions could be dispensed with, or mitigated without danger to
wrote the other day to the Clerk of the Sessions, the public health, her Majesty's Government should endeavour
to ascertain what was the comparative expense of a trial at the to bring about arrangements for the purpose of effecting
Quarter Sessions. It appeared from the reply that the charge a consummaeion so advantageous to commence. He concluded
of the expense of a person being tried was 161. 10s. At first, by moving the resolution.
after the passing of the Bill for allowing a counsel to prisoners, Sir ROBERT PEEL said he had no objection to offer to
one guinea was all that was (not required, for they all knew the motion, and accordingly it was agreed to.
that barristers required nothing) offered for the services THE SCOTCH CHURCH.
of the barrister. But the charges for the attorneyeand draw- Sir A. LEITH HAY said he had considered it is duty to
ing the brief, now made the charge amount to three or four call the attention of the House to the present state of the
guineas. This was so serious an addition to the charge that Church of Scotland. He did that upon no principle of
the Magistrates of the county to which he belonged thought it secterien partizanship, and for no political or party
Worthy of their consideration ['hey had addressed a re- purposes; but, however, connected as he was with that coun-
specaful communication to the Judges, requesting them to try, he felt that if that state of things which at present existed,
discriminate and point out the cases that really required the and which had unfortunately existed for many years, was suf-
assistance of counsel, that it might be given in those fered to continue, it would not only be detrimental to the esta-
cases only. When they considered the number of cases blished Church of Scotland, but injurious to the best interests
sof a trivial character, in which the property affected was very of the country. He was especially induced to bring forward
trifling, and the nature of the offence slight, it was really a the subject by; the unsatisfactory answer which hail been given,
erious charge to the country to pay 16/. for all such cases as at the commencement of the Session, to a question put by his
to see. With respect to the particular inquiry which his Hon. Right lion. Friend, the Member for Perth to the Right Hon.
anti Learned Friend now brought under the attention of the Baronet, the first Minister of the Crown. In reply to that ques-
Ino use, he (Mr.Bankes) would support it fur his own satisfactioe tion, the Right Hon. Baronet stated, that if he did determine
and that of his brother Magistrates. It never was dreamt of upon putting an end to the differences which existed between
by ithere to seek to rid themselves of those new burdens which, the Ecclesiastical and the Civil Courts in Scotland, he would
however, he trusted the Judges would not continue to impose give ample notice of his intention. That produced a laugh in
on them longer than was necessary. the House. The Right Hon. Baronet proceeded to state, that
Mr. E. BULLER thought he had not overstated the facts he would not pledge himself to bring forward any measure
of the'case. He had understood from a party on circuit, that on the subject, and he concluded with stating that he would
an application had been made, that those parties, against whom give no pledge that he would not introduce such a measure.
no persons appeared for the purpose of proceeding with the In these unfortunate circumstances, if he thought there were
prosecution, should be discharged. On this occasion the one of more influence in the House, likely to bring this ques-
Judges threw down briefs to counsel, and ordered the parties to tion forward, he would not have intruded; but living in the
be prosecuted at the expense of the Crown. midst of the heats, animosities, and confusion excited by these
The Bill Was then read a first time, circumstances, nothing could be more derogatory to his duty
INCOME TAX. as he thought, than to remain silent when he had an opportu-
-1141-r. M. GIBSON wished to ask the Right Hon. Baronet nity of expressing his feelings.—( Hear, hear.) He was not
-whether it was his intention that the income tax should be about to enter into long historical details respecting the Church
:levied on parsons receiving pensions chargeable oo the Con- of Scotland ; nor did he mean to in rude his own particular
wolidated Fund, under the authority of Acts of Parliament. opinions ; but he would prefer quoting authentic documents to
Sir ROBERT PEEL said (as we understood) that it was show what others, whose opinions were entitled to the highest
3-,is intention that the salaries of such officers, as the Hon. weight in the country, on former occasions expressed, with ad-
Gentleman referred to, should be liable to the tax. He ( Sir miration, of the Church of Scotland as an establishment
R. Peel) regretted that the Hon. Gentleman had not given worthy of every protection arid support. First, he would refer
Lim notice of the question. As he had so many questions on to the Report of a Committee of that House, and which the
the subject—( Hear, hear)—he would wish to be as accurate Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government would re.
as possible in his replies. He therefore trusted the Hon. memberthat Report said,"No sentimenthadso deeplyimpresseed
Gentleman would postpone pressing his question to Friday next. itself on the minds of the Committee, in the course of a long
Mr. Al. GIBSON said he bad objection to postpone his and laborious investigation, as that of veneration and respect
nuoistion to to-morrow (this day), but he could not consent to ' for the Established Church of Scotland." Next, he would
put it off further, particularly as the time which would elapse quote the individual opinion of the Right Hon. Baronet res-
bee we the income tax should come into operation was so short pecting the Church of Scotland. It was in these words—" He
that people had hardly time to make up their minds upon the considered it a most important and useful instrument for pro-
matter. pogating true religion ; suited to the country, with reference to
.111 r. WA KLEY said, that really those questions were ex- its past history and its present condition, and calculated to
ceedingly annoying to the Right Honourable Baronet.— maintain those principles of order and tranquility which were
(Laughter.) '1 he only way in which the Right Hon. Gentle- insecure unless based on a sense of religion." This was the
man would get rid of them was to give up the income tax Establishment that was now suffering accumulated misfor-
altogether.—( Laughter. ) tunes, and was the British Legislature to look on without at-
CHINA. tempting to apply some remedy to circumstances which
Mr. BLEWITT wished to know from the Right Hon. were appalling to every lover of his country—(Hear.)
Baronet, whether the Government had made up their minds as and every one that had its best interests at heart? It .was not
to the permanent occupation of Hong-Kong. for him to mark out the particular line of duty which the
Sir H. PEEL said that the Hon. Gentleman must be aware Government and the LeOlature ought to adopt, but he thought
that the differences between this country and China were still that the time had arrived when it was absolutely necessary
unsettled, and pending the war, he (Sir Robert Peel) must to legislate in a prompt, effectual, and final manner to settle
decline answering such a question as that now put by the this question. It was known to many Members of the House
Hon. Gentleman. and to to the country generally, that the establishment of the
QUARANTINE. Church of Scotland with regard to the power of presenting minis-
Dr. BOWRING rose, according to notice, to move a reso- ters, was fixed by the Act of the 10th of Queen Anne, passed in
lution to the effect, that her Majesty may be graciously pleased 1711; that act established the right to present to parochial churches
to continue the inquiries made in foreign countries as to the ia lay patrons without reservation. That act had been acted
efficacy of the Qnarantine system, and to carry out any nego- on for may years, ever since in fact, without question, until the
ciations which may have for their object such modifications the questioh of the right of patronage was challenged by certain
as are consistent with the public safety and the interests of persons, who formed an association in Scotland, called the
commerce. Also, to lay on the table of the House, any cos- Anti-Patronage Society—the date of that society was 1824, but
respondence, or extracts of correspondence, which has taken it was not till ten years after; in 1834; that it acquired any im-
eace since the last capers were ordered' for presentation. portanee, when the Supreme EccleCiaseiCal Court passed an act,
He )anew the titan l' ct was not of art entertaining nature, but it called the Veto Act, -for the purpose of givingehapeople a voice
was afsgreat importance, and he besought the-patience of the iin the choice of their own ministerowhieb wee not consistent,as
Houses, whilst •• he laid before ' them . the geourids on was held by the Civil COurts; .willithe act On-Which the law
which— he Formed - this ' resolutiotre A doubt as rested. It vsasimpossible to read these two acts without com-
to the infectious nature of - plague had , been preva, ' ing to the conclusion that they could not co.eitist with good Go..
lent _-for some `time • previous to - 1818, when a Corn- vernment, -sound policy, and the stability Of the Church. If
xnittee of. the House was apnointed to inquire into the allege- such was the position of things could it be possible that the
Lions of Mr. MttLean, a surgeon of eminence, who had written , Legislature would allow the people of Scotland to remain in such
much to prove that the plague was not infectious, and that ! circumstances. Ile was not arguing the case on his own
quarantine laws were unnecessary and mischievous. That ' authority. It must be known to Members of the House
Committee- reported that it was not advisable to repeal those I that the first authorities pointed out the absolute necessity of
lawn . "In-1822 another Committee was appointed, which made • legislation on the subject. The first person he would quote was
at least one 'important concession, that since the year 1665, Lord Aberdeen, who said, in his place in the House of Peers,
there had been no instance of infection from plague in England.' I on the 31st of March, 1840:—" It appears to be so clearly the
In 1835 the subject was brought before the British Association duty of her Majesty's Ministers to propose a measure to Parlia-
fur the.. Advancement of Science, and that important bodyre- ment upon a question so immediately affecting the peace and
(erred it to the medical section, who recommended that an at- good order of the community, that I. take it
'for granted the i
tempt should be made to induce the Government to appoint a responsible advisers of the Crown will not abandon a duty so
Commission fit the purpose of prosecuting and completing a imperative." That was the opinion of Lord Aberden in March
thorough investigation of the sunject. The question was lately 1840. On the 19th of June Lord Aberdeen said, in the House
acquiring great importance, and when he considered the posi- of Lords, that he thought the then existing state of things in
Lion of Egypt, which stood midway between this country and ' relation to the Scottish Church, justified their Lordships in
its possessions in the east, and that in British India there ex- , looking to her Majesty's Government fur some interference. •
isted no quarantines or lazarets—no impediment to the corn- That was the opinion of the present. Secretary of State for Foreign
munic-ation of travellers, or the conveyance of goods—he thought Affairs. The next opinion which he should quote regarding the
the fact was strong against the system. There was no difficulty state of the scotch Church, was the opinion of one whose name
in the way to a person travelling through Egypt to he could never mention without the deepest feelings of venera-
Bombay, Madras, or other parts of India. In the East Indies the tion—he meant the Duke of Wellington.—(Cheers.) The
opinion was against the doctrine of contagion, and it was the Duke said, that if the Kirk were disposed to listen to mode-
opinion of five medical persons, appointed by the Governor• rate councils, he slid not apprehend there would be much diffi- •
General to investigate the subject, that lazarets and quaran- culty in bringing the matter to a settlement. He (the Duke
tines afforded no security. It was obvious that the quarantine of Wellington) thought the Kirk should recollect that its uti-
aystem was a great embarrassment to commerce, and it eat not lity depended in a great measure upon its intimate connexion
easy to form any estimate of the loss caused by it. He had with the State ; and the Noble Duke went on to state that he i
beard the annual loss from the quarantine system estimated at considered it desirable that the Kirk should state clearly what
between two and three millions, and he believed if the losses in course the) proposed to adopt, in order that it might be made
the Mediterranean were added, they would make up a similar the sulject of an Act of Parliament. And the Noble Duke
amount. If two veaels started from the same port, and one concluded by stating, that in better times (nu doubt meaning
.of them occupied two months longer than the other in this when himself and his friends should be in power), with good
voyage, they were subjected to the same quarantine, though it men, actuated by good intentions, it would by no means he
netts well known that the longer the vessel was at sea the less impossible to come to a satisfactory settlement of the ques-
ncas any plague likely to be conveyed by it. /lc received a two. These were the strong testimonies he had to offer.
letter from a naval officer sshcse authority would be of great as an excuse for himself, in calling upon the Government of
weight wink the House, Captain Basil stall, who wrote to him the country not to hesitate in doing something for the
from Malta in September, 1841. Ile stated that he sailed settlement of this question, before it should be too late. I
to Valetta, with troops from Candle, rind that the He ( Sir A. L. Hay) would allude to one other testimony that of
troops had hen put into quarantine till the 231; the itight Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government, who
that was I 7 days. He also stated that treat credit was in July, lti4o, had given it as his opinion that the session ought
due to the 'patience with which they submitted to the inconve- not to be suffered to pass over without the Government pro-
enence ; and he added that every one knew the irksomeness and posing some legislative measure on the subject. And the
.delay of the quarantine, and the consequent retardation of the question bad been left unsettled up to the present moment, and
service. Admiral sir John Oliver left Candia at the same he hoped the House would indulge him while he pointed out to
time with the Cyclops steamer. The Cyclops arrived at Malta them the manner in , which this subject was operant)," on the
before Sir John Oliver, arid the time was calculated for her Established Church of Scotland. For his own part° he (Sir
arrival. Site was admitted to pratique before Sir John Oliver A. L. Hay) had never interfered at all in the unfortunate dd.
was, -who did not arrive until some days alter the steamer, so ferences which at present divided the Church. He had de-
that his junior officers, who had left Candia at the same time he dared no opinion which could be construed into partisanship
had done, were enjoying themselves on shore some days before for one side or the other. He had never stated any other
he was permitted to land. Again, the steam-ship Stromboli opinion than this, in saying which he had no fear of contradic-
had left Beyrout on the 2d September, within twenty-four lion, that things could not be allowed to remain long as
_hours after the Powerful had left Beyrout, but not having the they were. The first thing that occurred upon the passing of
advantage of steam, she had not reached Malta until many the Veto Act was the case of Auchterarder. In that case the
days after the Stromboli. The Powerful was as Civil and the Ecclesiastical Courts disagreed. A clergyman
healthy,as the Stromboli, and had left within 24 hours of each was inducted against the almost unanimous voice of the
other, and yet, in consequence of the difference in the time of parisioners. In that case the General Assembly interposed,
their,arrival at Malta the Stromboli had pratique granted to her and exerted what they felt to be their rights. But in that
18 days before the Powerful. Much of this was attributable to cause they were condemned by the Civil Courts. Ihe next
.
the immense number of persons who had a pecuniary interest circumstanee of importance was the well known case of the
in the roainienarree of that quarantine system, and he agreed parish of Marnoch. There again, a clergyman was inducted
with
,Captain Basil that it would be cheaper and better to pen- against the almost unanimous decision of the Assembiy,
sion off those persons to the third and fourth generation, than to who were again opposed by the Civil Courts. The Commission
continuothe present system; As a proof of the working of of the Assembly suspended, and ultimately deposed the clergy-
that system he would state that it appeared from the Maltese men in these instances; and sent into the parishes other clergy- -
newspapers that the authorities in that island had thought pro- ' men who officiated, not in the parish churches, (which were in
per to lengthen the quarantine of vessels arriving from Cone the possession of the deposed persons) but in other places in the
stantionple:frope 18 to 25 days, and the reason given for this parishes. The difference in these persons was, that they were
was that the quarantine authorities at Marseilles had refused to out of the pale of the Ecclesiastical Court, and in possession of the
reduce,the time for allowing vessels pratique. At Leghorn the temporalities, and supported by the civil authorities, but they
period was only 18 dayi and the Austrian Government had were not recognised by the other Court. This was not a ques-
materially shortened the length of quarantine at Trieste, tion connected merely with the Church, but it was a question
while on the Danube they had removed it altogether. connected with the observance of the law. There
Some of his Hon. Friends whom he saw around him could was another feature he had to mention, in connexion with
bear testimony to the extreme personal annoyances to which this most unfortunate controversy, which was the case
all men were subjected who had unfortunately fallen into the of a very learned and remarkable man in the Church of
handy of quarantine functionaries. It was a history of priva- Scotland. He alluded to a minister in Edinburgh, Mr.
tions, of delays, of expense, of obstructions of every sort, of des- Candlish. This very eminent man was on the eve of being
peti.rn the most uncontrolled and irresponsible. One could established in the Chair of Biblical Criticism. He had acted
hardly conceive how intelligent nations could have given their without the order of his Ecclesiastical superiors, and had gone
sanction to such a system. In Malta there was a strict guar- to the parish of Huntley, and there performed Divine service,
entitle against arrivals from Algiers and Northern Africa. The in opposition to the interdict of the Court. The consequence
French, who were severe against Oriental countries not under was, he never received his appointment; and, in fact, so far
their own Government, relaxed that severity in the case of as punishment was concerned, he was the only person who
ships arriving from Algiers. On the ground 'of public health had been punished for his opposition to the civil law. If he
twhcorreopondence of all countries, on arriving at the Levant, had acted wrong, the merely withholding the place was not
ase
ha httuany violated. 'He had seen despatches of :he Govern- sufficient. If the civil power was strong enough to take it
went examined like Parliamentary papers, after which they up, they ought to have carried it still further.—( Hear. )
were re-sealed and forwarded to their lace of destination. In his opinion, there ought to be no uncertainty either
Litters underwent various operations. Sometimes they were. one way or the other. It was not enough to tell him that her
clipped in vinegar, PO that when they m-ired in this country .11ajesty's late Government did not take up this question. He
they were scarcely legible ; sometimes they were filled eith was sorry the Right Hun. &o ink, the First Minister of the
holes, the incidenis being mane with a sh.a- p instrument ; and Ci own had not been apt to take example of the Noble Lord
they generally arrived at „heiri
i ntoh:atittoiliet i
s dilapidated n, ear him, buti be (Sir A. L. Hay) did hope he would see the
condition. There could be to do(ueb'tt-political
~a,,t objects
of
sand
wouldeotns atiohimdething on this subject. The next case
nolitieal interests were great (awes„ e to which lieeaslVßesxetcnaet which hadd recently occurred,
:if aAryareesactriiiptiol, viz.,h the
quarantine. He felt persuaded that almost all the interests of line which was inc of
America were concentrated in and represented by her ageros. ' case which occurred in the a.ris'hr( 't he quarantine had often been relaxed tor political purtoscs. 'limo was not the slightest necessityp for any steps being this case
'The general ideas respecting the plague were connected with There was no vacalicy in the palish, and the person who had
ignorance and superstition. In some countries, as in Italy, been estalslished had been there for seven years; he acted in the
the fear of the cont gion of phthisis was as strong as that of capacity of assistant. An assistant was merely a temporary person
pague. But it was now known that persons were seized with in the parish. This Gentleman had acted in the capacity for
that dis-ase without having had any communication with in• seven years, and all at once it appeared necessary that he
fected persons. He mentioned some extraordinary reports of should be made assistant to another parish. It was
in conse-
cases in which the plague had been stated to have been nom- quence of this appointment that the disgraceful scenes which
municated, and read a return of the number of deaths, from had been referred to hail taken place. It was understood by
'various diseases, in Constantinople. It appeared that the the sheriff of the county and by the civil authorities, that a riot
deaths in the year in that city, from ordinary diseases, was likely to take place in conseqnence of the appointment.
amounted to 45,840; deaths by the plague, 1,160: of these a The sheriff, the head of the police, and twelve of the rural
large proportion of fatal cases were those who were found I police, and a large body of constables were assembled on the
dead in their houses without having received any medical treat- spot. There was a large assemblage of persons not only from
meat at all, the average mortality being ateout two-thirds of the particular parish, but from the surrounding parishes, prin.
-the numberattacked. 'phis return proved that the real mortality ciPallY accumulated by the feeling of curiosity. The people got
sof the city during the plague season was less than at the other into the church, and filled every avenue, and prevented the
"Pries& of the year. In the months of September' and Octo- clergyman who was to perform the service from
ler there were as many deaths as during the plague months. doing so. The pulpit was occupied by the people.
nhere'wercsonle facts connected with the subject which gave The consequence was the clergyman, and the Pres-
., .
et i
t, S., .;,..

ii I,),,c)itntcoolmitmmtuteceb
couldmore aamiLlde s; oinfrtcheesroefeinvefrorlmvaasfiaonsubtljieaciitttaa.:
on each side was so thoroughly exhausted, he ventvred to_ sty
it was that of the Church of Scotland ; and, theref,re,eikt!
lion. Gentleman wanted information with respect to th.,(1.1.r507
rent matters relating to that question, after having readtla `l,
the judgment of all the Judges of the Court of Sessions and
the judgment of the Hous of Lords, and then the painepir
which were written on the subject, it might be dep er
upon that the most ample information would bean ob-
tained. When the late ssovernment was in office _
press proposition was made to Lord Melbouree, r.
appoint a Committee to inquire into the question. Loyd:ei.
bourne did not acquiesce in that proposition, stet ng as his r ,7
for not doing so, that he thought the question was not../O__
tit for legislation. Lord Melbourne then took the c'itO7,
which he (Sir R. Peel) now proposed to take. He believed
the appointment of a Committee would only_ tend to pot,tEZ
the time when any good could be effected. He firmly heirect
that if an attempt was now made to legislate upon then al
it would only inflame the feelings of the peoples ttitie
already excited, and at the same time they would not ad,
vance the interests of the Church of Scotland one air
Under these circumstances, he thought the Hon. •3lem, i
acted perfectly right in not bringing forward a Bill ; b,t_ bk.
itt
Hill coubl be brought forward, founded on just princiPi hi
thought it ought to be brought forward—he thought it.woiron
b, much beter than appointing a Select Committee. °L'e!,oo„,,i
belief was, that, instead of effecting any good, a Select e sat!
milieu would only tend to widen the difference
coo
present exist ing. —( Heat , hear. If he baci,ed oe
down to the House, and said he had nothing to rgt-g let
the measure, and that he should move therefore for a
_,.,„
Committee, he should have been told at once that such a Z`ol
would be wholly unworthy of the Minister of the Crown. ;i-st
coul.l he indeed have pursued such a course; and wolnot
step had been adopted by another Hon. Illembed, he t ,;..l: ' '
give his support to it. r
' 4 ii* '!.'
Mr. A. CAMPBELL commenced, in reply, by I gated'?
extract from a letter from Dr. Thomas Chalmers,ldg t 4511,11
that his motion was looked to with the greatest intetis4t.. -11 t,;
parties in the Church, and wishing him God speed ilitaritt
would beg to state that the Right Honourable sorer,_
who answered him did not at all condescend t° 11•31 r-
the arguments which he had made use of. Peu, sot
Campbell) contended that the civil court onfl""hokic
to be allowed to decide the ,imits of its own powers vii4i 1b.,:
had to adjudicate in the case of its own adversary. -T,..jbas:
Right Hon. Baronet did not reply to. The Ilig,ngvlif;;
Baronet then asked him why he did not bring in a Bill '-'7i.
would bring in a Pill, and one that would answer erktAta,i
pose, but he knew that it would be immediately cashiered,
party of men who blindly followed their Conserwo-001 ,
leader.—(Opposition cheers.) Gentlemen opposite need?'.,'
cheer because he knew they would de exactly the same ' of ,i
—(Renewed cheering.) It was for that reason that herr32lo
to have a quiet d:,.criminating inquiry into the subject in a
_A„sil
,_!,
mitre-room ;he asked this in justice to the people of Saul"- :..
and themselves. He was now quite ready to take the sense
the House on the subject.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the e •
's --
divided. The numbers were— ,i g,
, For the motion • 69 -""^.
Against it .
Major it against the motion. ........--7 .il' :.!
THE TRUCK SYSTEM. 4
Mr. FERRAND, on the gallery being cleared, was, 0 yet ';
speaking in support of the motion, of which he bad .- .4
notice, for a copy of all the convictions in the countlet•- •?,
York and Lancaster by Magistrates in Petty Sessions 87111;,,:i
bled, of permits who have been guilty of illegally pltYL,f4reet.•
wages of their workpeople in goods instead of the cs-18,51i '
coin of the realm, since the Ist day of January/ ' sl. '
contrary to the provisions of the Act 1 and 2 Will. 4• g; the
He made this demand in justice to the working men e...it' .0(4
kingdom. At the time an Honourable Member oPr-je.'..
stated that seventy-two persons in Manchester hil!1. Ilt•-
dared that they did not carry on the truck systeot,,!'
was most shamefully deceived by those Pt_Tiiel..., •
Instead of being the principal manufactures of. Lang
many of them were not manufacturers at all. troak'7`
very first man on the list carried on the ore
sjstem, by paying his labourers in milk, and
,tios'
maufasturers in that place he found were foreigners, and
it right that they should come here and subscribe their 01e,
for the purpose of setting class against class,and support into rii
of men who were attempting to overawe the Govern se of,
Those men were depriving the British merchant
ti 01..:
a fair field of enterprise, and they had a duty to peters'-se'
0,
only to the British Government, but to the country they fo.
~
from. Were. British merchants to act in the same way in' 'or.
countries, they would be immediately made amenable to the al .
He protested against the oppression going on in the north o.
England against the workmen, in the name of justice
tot
common decency, and he proposed his motfon from a rd'ilejal
the people of this country should be made aware
...,.- is -'
if the master did attempt to frighten and intimidate the ol'is
men from giving evidence before the House it 'l,_!seti
the power of the House to inflict condigu punisolito-osl;
and while he lived, as far as his position in the ° tail,
enabled him, he would take care that the punishment Watgkie,'
flitted. The Hon. Member then read a circular, dated
l'ata;'
chester, the sth of March. and signed J. Hickens, secrets!: 'Cal!'
an Anti Corn.law Society, requesting the foremen
blishments to obtain the signatures of workmen to a cony:
tion of Mr. Lennard's charge. He asked, where ,
declaration was ? It had not appeared in that rd er
because the working people had at last shown that Jae° ';,,
were not to ba intimidated. He also read the letter'"l '
inclosed the circular to him, signed by a poor working Ittot/,
praising Mr. Ferranti for his conduct in exp ising the eolitiek}".
of the masters, and wondering that any men could be-'tor
who would nut credit it. He was determned to terra:Ltd,
,t
whole of such mons•rous tyranny, by whosoever
/
and whatever party ; and he should be prepared after -,,.d
when he should move for a Committee, with !Itch eri'lli. '
as would astonish the Heise, and make some Hon. 111e° tlii •
in the House tremble. The Government would find. fr°°'o9,
evidence, that the country was in an alarming state frog •
fraudulent practices of the manufacturers, who were p ' ' ' ' k
and oppressing their workmen to a worse extent than . )
bondage. He read two letters from Magistrates in the ',,, j
bourhood of the Hon. Member for Stockport, stating tbit
had convicted manufacturers for illegally paying their worilif
in goods, in penalties to the amount of 251. And he eoneltildSk
accusing the Hon. Member for Stockport himself, notwitlislro . ,
ing his declaration, that' he had adopted the truck ayate;iskP
keeping a number of cows, and paying part of his men's
in milk.
Col. SI IITHORPE seconded the motion,
Mr. SCHOLEFIELD said that he had ired"r denying that any such meeting had taken place in firn.?--
ite: 7 -,-',,T
ham as the Hon, Member (Mr. Ferrand)
had allegeu'' . ''.
.I,''
The motion was then agreed to. : l la gal
On the motion of Lord ELIOT, leave was given to htlig. 9,1"
a Bill to amend the Dublin Police Acts.
Dr. hOWRING postponed to Thursday next the lottinaii°ll°l7k4
which he had gieen notice for a Report made to .the ''(e, j,4‘fle
Office by a Committee appointed by the Conference, tdgt-:
,01
herd at the Crown and Anchor, on the subject of Ingll I;Vet,i
ti . tuning distress. • lorle" On the motion of the Earl of LINCOLN, leave wi4 gliiifi
to bring in a Bill to extend and enlarge the provisions OW
ip
Act 4 and 5 Vic. c. 27, intituled " an Act to enable her
~,4
jesty's Commissioners of Woods to complete the contralT,,,l et r
the sale of York House, and to purchase certain lands.nii,;;# fi'l,4.
The other Orders of the Day were disposed of, end the a•"".-`• p
adjourned at a Quarter-past One.
MR