The Sun.
London, England, 1842-08-13 00:00:00

MIMES EA-BANKM:..NT.

Sir F. TRENCH gave notice that early next
Session, he should move for the appointment of a
Select Committee, on the subject of the Thames Enl.
bankment.
PUNISHMENT OF DEATH.

Mr. MART gave notice that next session he
should make a motion that the punishment of death in
Scotland be for the same offences as in England ;
also, that transportation be abolished in certain cases.
Mr. HUME moved that the account% laid on the
table of the House, of money expended in the .City of
London, be. printed.—Ordered.
ATTENDANCE OF MEABERS.

The How. MEMBER also moved for a return of the
number of divisions which' have taken place this ses-
sion, stating the number of Members present in the
majority and minority ; also the aggregate number of
the House, andstating what divisions were upon pri-
vate and, what on public Bills • also the number of
divisions which have taken place after midnight. This
return involved a question of much importance, as he
intended to found upon it a motion for reducing the
umber of Members from 658 to 300.—(Laughter.)
Sir C. DOUGLAS thought the Hon. Member
ought to have given notice• of his inotion.—(Hear.)
the motion was then agreed to.
PRISON DISCIPLINE.

Mr. T. DUNCOMBE gave notice, that next ses-
sion he should renew two motions of which he had
given notice—one for a Committee to inquire into
prison discipline, another to inquire into the operation
of the Gilbert Act, compared with the new Poor-law
Act. He should also move for leave to bring in a
Bill to repeal the Septennial Act.
THE INCOME-TAX.
_ _

Mr. T. MINCOMBE risked the Chancellor of the
Exchequer if in all future quarterly accounts of the
Income-tax, it was intended to include as separate
items the amount of the tax stopped at all the public
offices, and the sums received from the amount SQ
stopped from persons whose incomes were under
1501. a year. He understood that this was done under
the old Income-tax.

The CHANCELLOR, of the EXCHEQUER
said this would be practicable if the House required
it, but he believed the accounts would only contain
the several gross amounts received from different
sources.

Mr. HUME said the accounts ought to give the
aggregate amount received from each schedule for
each quarter, leaving the details to be given after-
wards. It was very important that they should be
able to see how the Income-tax bore on the other
taxes of the country.
Mr. DUNCOMBE said he understo,,d that it
would be four or five months before persons with in-
comes under 1501. per annum would be able to re-
cover the amount deducted from payment* made to
them in the manner he had alluded to.
Mr. MART asked the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer whether he was aware that tbe Government
of France intended to tax the English holders of
French dividends, in consequence of the French
holders of English funds having been taxed by the
Income-tax in this country. By this means the
English holder would be twice taxed —once on his
income in this country, and again by the tax imposed
by France.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
had never heard such a report. He had heard it
stated, as an argument against the Income-tax, but
neNer as a measure likely to be carried into effect.
CHARTIST MEETINGS.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE said he had taken the li-
berty of informing the Secretary of State for the
Dezartnieut that he intended to put a ques-
tion, tolnarraberaier, a correspondence he meant to
move for between the Home Secretary and the
Mayor of Bridport, in reference to a supposed Char-
tist meeting, at which violent language was used,
held on the 21st of July. The Right Hon. Gentle-
man had felt it his duty to inquire into the circum-
stances of the meeting, and on the Ist of August ad-
dressed a letter to the .Mayor of Bridport, signed by
Mr. Manners Sutton, requesting to he informed of
the nature of the said meeting. In consequence of
the absence of the Mayor, the letter was answered by
the Town-clerk, who stated that, on the 19th of
July, an application was made from a very respectable
member of. the Society of Friends, one of the Town
•Council, for the use of the Town-hall, for the pur •

t

11.

holiiii74 a meeting, at which the Rev. T.
Spencer, of Hinton, was to dcliver a lecture on a
subject as :announced in the printed programme. The
Quuncil acceded to the request, and the meeting was -
held. It was very quiet and orderly, as there was
only one interruption. The address of the speaker
was perfectly temperate, and- becoming his sacred
profession ; so unexceptionable was his langtvge, that-
iie Town-clerk), for the- sake. of Mr. Spencer,
felt. indignant at- seeing in the County Chronicle
scandalously false account rr the meeting. The
letter also stated that the hall was used for public ex-
hibitions, and the meetings of sects and societies of
all kinds ; nor would the use of it have been granted
had not the meeting been for a lawful and orderly
purpose. He (Mr. Duncombe) was anxious to ob-
tain this information and this correspondence, because
it was-rather consistent with that disposition he re-
gretted to see in the present Government to interfere
with the rights of public discussion. He wished to
know on what authority the Right Hon. Baronet
had made his inquiry, and who . was his informer;
whether it was the constituted authorities of the town,
or one of those wretches he was sorry to see em-
ployed—a description of spy.. Even if the points of
the Charter were advocated, he did not see that this
could justify the interference of the Secretary of
State. •He moved that copies of the correspondence
between the Home Secretary and the Mayor of Brid-
port, in reference to this subject, be laid on the
table.
Mr. HUME seconded the motion. •

Sir J. GRAHAM said he should: give the motion
his most decided opposition. The Hon. Gentleman
had given notice of his intention to put a question on
the subject, but not that he intended to move fora
copy of the correspondence of which he had read 'a
portion. The Hon. Gentleman had Leen bold enough
to assert that he had obtained his information through
the means of a spy. He absolutely denied the impu •
tation that any spy had been employed by the Go-
vernment in any part of the United Kingdom. it was
a system that he unequivocally disclaimed ; he be-
lieved it was dangerous in the extreme; that those who
employed spies were usually deceived by them, and
that a Government honestly bent on putting
down turbulence and disorder, by the em-
ployment of spies, only promoted those evils.
On the other hand he held himself responsible for the
maintenance of peace avid good order. It was in con-
sequence of a communieation which he received from
respectable inhabitants of the town of Bridport, that
he inquired of the Mayor of that town if it was true
that a Chartist meeting was held in the Town-hall,
at which violent language was used, at which it was
reported the Rev. Gentleman who delivered the lec-
ture gave expression to the following passage :
That that Government was corrupt in the extreme
which could not exist. if it did not get men base
enough to enlist as so:diers, to be appointed as police-
men, and to sit in the jury-box to deliver verdicts."
It was learning that such language as that was used
that made him ask the question of the Mayor of
ifeidport, and to which question he had received
the answer from the 'own-clerk, which the
Honourable Member had read to the House.
Having received that answer,. he (Sir J. Graham)
was bound to believe the assertion that such language
was used by the Rev. Lecturer was untrue. In the
present state of the country he thought that such ex-
planations as that received fro:n the Town-clerk of
13ridport were desirable. While he would uphold
the constituted authorities in their efforts to preserve
peace and order, he expected their co-operation.
Mr. HAWES heard with regret the announcement
made by the Right Hon. Gentleman for the first time
that he should superintend public meetings, and de-
cide upon the nature of the opinions expressed at
them. So now, a constable was to judge in the first
place of the legality (4-public meeting, and the Secre-
tary of State 'for the Home Department was to
superintend the report of the discussions of such
Meeting. The people were dissatisfied with
the measures of the session, and they had every right
to meet and discuss such measures ; but it appeared
that now they were to be told that those discussions
were to be superintended by the Secretary of State,
and that a Secretary of State who had voted on Whig
principles. But the Right Hon. Gentlethan would
find the people too strong for him.
Sir J. GRAHAM said, the Hon. Gentleman re-
minded him of his Whig principles. He (Sir James
Graham) wanted to know how long existed the con-
nection between Whig principles and Chartism.
Other Whigs might answer the question, but for him,
self he must say non hcec infcedera veni. As far as
he knew Whig principles, there was every desire on
the part of genuine Whigs to sanction the legitimate
exercise of the right of presenting petitions; but he
had yet to learn that it wii—consistent with Whig
principles to state that it was base on the part of the,
community to enlist as soldiery, to act as policemen,
or to sit in the jury box. If those were Wh4 prin-
ciples, it was the better way that men of property
should be informed of it without delay in the present
position of affairs, in order that there might be no
mistake with respect to the principles which
guided the two sides of the HOuse. No ex-
pressions of the Honourable Gentle:fun, ho Neve:
taunting in their character could deter him from en-
deavouring to prevent a breach o:*the peace.
. .

Mr. 115.W.g6 explained. What he had intended
to express .was, that the principles wWch the Wm.:lt
Hon. Baronet had then propounded were not Whig
principles.
Mr. HUME said he was glad to hear the state-
Mont of the [tight Hon. Baronet with respect to tlic
employment of spies ; it was very important .that tir
public mind should be disabused on that subject.—
(Cries of " Hear, .bear:") • lie had received a
letter from „Bridport on the subject of th..
meeting,..froin which it appeared that the words in
qtqstion were directed against the spy system. The
,object of the speed' was to denounce any person who
either as a policeman, a juryman, or in auy other cha-
racter, would lend his aid to prevent free discussion.'
—(llear, hear.) He would take -that opportunity of
putting a question to the Right Hon. Baronet on a
subject of very great importance, referring, as it did,
to the present state of Manchester He 'wished to
know whether he would have any objection to lay on
the table of the House a copy of the correspondence
which had passed between the officer in command of
the military in Lancashire and the Home-office,
in reterence to the maintenance of the peace.
The town of Manchester was 'now in a state
of civil war. What did it arise from ? Nomi-
nally from a quarrel between the 'nesters and their
workmen with respect to wages ; but in point of fact
it arose from the want of employment, which might
be provided by proper and honest legislation.—(Hear,
hear.) It appeared to him. that her Majesty's Minis-
ters were about to dismiss Parliament at a time when
the country was in a most dangerous condition. In
conclusion he begged leave to move for a copy of the
correspondence to which he had referred.
EXCHEQUER BILLS.

Mr. C. BULLER said he rose partly for the
purpose of expressing his regret at the hasty
inamier in ..which he had expressed himself on
the subject of Exchequer bills on a former even,
ing; his warmth arose from his being brought in
contact with persons who had suffered greatly from
what had taken place. All he lvanted was, that the
Right Hon. Gentleman should take into his conside-
ration the great suffering which had been borne by
the holders of these bills, not only from the loss of
their property, but from the locking up of their ca-
pital for a period of 18 months, the total suspension of
large commercial operations, and occasionally from
iinputationS upon their character. He wished to ask
the Right Hon. Gentleman whether it was the inten-
tion of the Government to make their measure on this
subject one of the first measures of the next session.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER felt
obliged to the Hon. and Learned Member for the
manner in which he had brought the subject forward ;
and, with the permission of the House, he would now
state the precise situation in which the question stood.
At the commencement of .the present session a Com,
missioner was appointed to inquire into what the real
state of the transaction was with respect to Exche-
quer bills. The House thought it necessary the sub-
ject should be examined into by persons of impar-
tiality, but at that, time it was distinctly understood that
those Commissioners were not to pronounce any opinion-
on the question of compensation; that Was to be reserved
for the future deliberation of Purliament and the
Government. He regretted extremely, that from
causes that could not be controlled, that Report had
been presented at so late a period of the session as to
make it impossible for Parliament to decide upon the
question of the extent of the compensation to the
different classes. He should have been happy if
time had been allowed fbr the consideration of the
subject, for he felt deeply for the distresses of those
individuals, not only on account of their losses,
but from their being supposed to be impli-
cated. in fraudulent transactions. He thought many
of the cases of the claimants were entitled to
the favourable consideration of Parliament, and he had
no wish to avail himself of technical objections. In
conclusion, he could assure the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman, that if he remained in the office he now
held till the next session, one of the first measures
that would. be proposed would be one on the subject
of the claims of these parties. —(Hear, hear.)
CHARTIST MEETINGS—(RESUMED).
Sir T. \VILI)E, in resuming the debate, said that
it was his most anxious wish to do justice to the sen-
timents oF those who were opposed to him. He ob-
jected to the principles the . Right Hon. Baronet
had avowed, and not to what he had done.
—(Hear, hear.) What was it that distin-
.guished • the present day from the worst times
of the Stuarts ? He firmly believed ,that the prin-
ciples that were to be deduced from what had fhllen
from the Right Hon. Baronet were not his, nor
would he believe they were till he saw him act up to
thetn.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to .the course
the Right 11011. Baronet had pursued; the ,act he
had done was perfectly consistent with ~free Govern-

•••• • •• .
•••-p-
-ment. He thought, however, if the -GLvernines
not employ spies,- they:ought to preseiwe:' the
peace.—(Heari-hear.,) - -tlaouglit -it- :was- the
of the"RightHi-iii. aeithaii-a-n-te
subject of the ine:2ting,that had-been adverted to;
such a principle as had been avowed by the P
Hon. Baronet, would put an end, to the express'`,
public feeling altogether. Were the paratnhant
in that
.house of opinion that the controlling'
should not permit these meetings to tail;e !Agee?.
suoerisicn the It.;-ht-Hotu' Baranet,o.vowekiini
a dangerous opinion in- that Ifousci -as—regard t
public liberty. Could they -keep-the- people
meeting? They could not. Where: -I,y&i.s it, '
they should meet ; in municipal places, -Pr ''
open fields ? was it safer they should meet
Guildhall or in Spa Fields. That wasAhe: qur,
—(Hear, hear.) In conclusion, he wouldion'L

that he did not believe the Right Hon. _Gent,
entertained the principles that were to be de''
from what, he stated, but if he did and acted
them, he hoped they would receive the reprobatic4
that House.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir JAMES GRAHAM could assure -the
Member that the letter that had been written

for no pledge or engagement, and the pledge to
the Hon. Gentleman referred, was a _ pledgert
volunteered by the Town-clerk of Bridport, %%11°
of the party to which the Hon. Gentleman be
Mr. M. -PHILIPS said it had appeared in
debate that the Town-clerk of Bridport had oil
teered to give an assurance to the Right
Baronet ; but he (Mr. Philips) thought the litij
ought to know what the intentions of the Right '0
Baronet were if he had not recelsed that
from the Town-clerk.--(Laughter). He (Mr.
entertained too high a respect -for.--the
vernment to think that they would emr
-
-spies for any purpose whatever.--(Hear.) lae
glad that an opportunity had been given to the P.;
Hon. Baronet to give a denial to it. The 11i
Hon. Baronet would find that the Municipal etil
cities of Manchester would support the authority
the law. The distress of the country at the:
time was great indeed. It was not a mere P-t,
occurrence, but it would continue unless some 5,
were taken with respect to it. All he -wished
that the Government would give the subject -el
deration, or it would. involve other interests in
common downfal. - --„

COBDEN hardly thought that Hons.: 0,,
proper place to vindicate the character of the 19
facturers from aspersions which had been cast
them out of doors. lie found, amongst others,
were charged with causing these disturbances.
would ask Hon. Gentlemen to reflect upon the/
tion in which they stood. Was there any bolt
men so situated, when one of their own (the
terial) incendiaries recommended the influence
in

power of the manufacturers to be destroyed by cbil_'j
with knitting•needles? Why a lucifer-match
destroy the largest capital employed in manuftletil'ei
He hoped the Right Hon. Baronet would holuli
some hope, and would state, before the arrival of ee
Majesty, that there was something in store fer,t/
people.—(Hear, ar.) It was a moral effect
wanted. They wanted to have the confidence °,'te
people restored. If that moral effect 'had been id
duced twelve months ago, he believed that no
ne
bance would have taken place.—(Hear,. :01
He believed that if the Corn-laws ei
repealed, a moral effect would be • prOdi:jo
which would carry them over what had °mull ot
Manchester, even if they had no corn coming in eitY
They were in danger of dire confusion througill)
country.—(Hear, hear.) It deserved no other.ctp
than confusion, and that was one of the most 411.01
things to meet. He believed there was less danger ,10
Manchester than from other places, but with regal
Manchester, he exhorted the Right lion. Baronets
to bring in the Cheshire Yeomanry there, nor an
the Yeomanry Cavalry, but particularly the Che'.vti
Yeomanry, against whom the people entert3l,„
strong feelings of dislike, in consequence of "halo;
curred to 1819. The people did not entertain, r 4,
hostility against the regular troops, and Coo
Wemyss was very popular.—(Hear, hear.)
heard that the Mayor of Stockport had sent
~
troops, but he hoped that the regular troops ``;'ti,
be employed. He would not take up the time of
11}1
House, but he trusted the Right Hon. Baronet iv°
say what he had in store for them.
Mr. HAMILTON called the attention of thell
to an error in the report of the West Indiail C°
mittee, and moved that the report be cancelled_
printed in accordance with the directions- of
Com
Mr.mittee.
in of
WARD rose to order. The motion 4
Hon. Friend was before the House,
disposed of.
The SPEAKER said that the Hun• Member cod
not proceed with his motion then. lO
Mr. WARD said that be hoped the Right 4,
Baronet would give some answer—sane assurati,i
which would produce the mural eff.!ct alluded tor'
the lion. Member for Stockprt. He trusted th
some safety-valve would be opened which Neott,'.
~sive employment to the people. The inquVi
Of the Right lion. Gentleman, the Secretary,,
State for the Hone Department, into
conduct of the municipal authorities would
If an opening to the proper expression of the
was refused, the people would be thrown into 1
hands of secret agitators.—(Bear, hear.) He iirg;
the , Right lion. Gentleman to be cautious in
present state of•the country. All his prudence -all
his powers would be put to a severe trial, andq
(Mr. W.) wished him well through the ordeal fso,
he knew that an assurauce from the Right 11", p
Baronet that something would be done, %volt° 1
more to pacify the country than any military streMi'
which might be brought together.
Sir R. PEEL was glad that the Hon. Gehtle,,,,
had, by cautiously abstaining from irritating Lil
guage, done nothing to add to the difficulties of
country.—(Hear, hear.) lie wished others 'o,f
followed his example.,—(Cheers.) For he 111.,,
say that during a period of severe distre'.el
and when the people manifested a degreehic)
patience and fortitude under privations; wot,
reflected the highest credit upon then,
tempts were made, and studiously made, to' infla
their passions, and exasperate them into violence'.o
(Cheers ) That, he presumed, the Hon. Gentle
would not deny, and he could not forget the langol
used at public meetings with regard to the ditreoo,
the people, and the means of remedying that distre
which the people were recommended to adopt. ;et.
Mr. COBDEN—The people were rema, kably
Sir R. PEEL—He knew they were—(Chreol
and he always gave the people credit for theft
tience. He admired their fortitude.--(Hear, h°,ol,
They were not to be blamed—(Hear, hear)ol
those who used language which was calctll,4o
to lead to the results that had taken Pled
were to be blamed.—(blear, hear.) He
some of them might not repent of the course they' op
taken.—(Cheers.) The Hon. Gentleman callea.a
him to say something, and that by so doing someth'io
might be done which would stimulate speculation to
the manufacturing districts and give employment ot
the labourer. What if those speculations were nrs
realised? If he distrusted the power of the I,egis'intsll,o
to provide an immediate remedy :or the distress', 0,
it not his duty to abstain from encouraging exPec
tions which neither he nor the Legislature Might 11.3
the power of relieving ? 401
Mr. lIIRtIE made an observation which did '-
reach us.

Sir H. PEEL—The Hon. Gentleman assairif
that the Legislature could provide the remedy, bate
he (Sir H. Peel) in the exercise of his best .1117,e,
merit, entertaineda doubt upon that point, that the ''„"
gislature had the power, by any measure it could alifrip
to afford relief to the distress which prevailea,
some parts of the country—at least to afford tbit h 4
mediate mitigation to which the Hon. Gentleman r,
ferred—was it not his duty to abstain from 00
raging expectations that might never be realised?
e'
d
(Hear, hear.) Would he not be encouraging A 0
lusion, if he held out any such hopes ; and No'lit
not Honourable Gentlemen opposite be the 0.01
to accuse him ?—(Loud cheers.) But, if t,.
removal of commercial restrictions was the proper P.,0
•mody for the distress of the country, had he not d°'er
more during the present session than was e'
done by any preceding Mi&ster ?—(Loud ebeerslo
It was said that he had done nothing ; his 'n t
reply t
that was, that more had been done during the preseL'
session than in the ten years preceding it. t`lo
pressure on the springs of industry, and the refusal `,
admit those articles that formed the element of' not
factures were the causes of the present .unforttinaL,'
distress, then more had been done to remedy it,duril.4'
the present session and at his instance than in ins
preceding ones. The Hon. Member for Montrose 114
admitted the fact; they might say Government inigP,
have dune more; that they did not go far enough; but they
could not deny that practical measures had been Car;
ried. That the alteration of tii• Corn-laws did 004
sooner take effect, was owing to the „,otionh
and declarations of Members opposite, NO)
had the effect of causing corn to be withheld'
in the hope that it would be admitted at
a duty of Is. Whe,i corn was rising in price the 01,
was charged on him ; now it was falling tbefi
would give him no credit for it.—(" The weather:l/
Well ! had the weather nothing, to do with preceding
harvests ? Since the alteration there had been n regte
lar trade in corn, and not less than 40,000 quarter'
had been taken out of bond, and a quantity of Col°,
nial corn, amounting to 80,000 quarters, had been
admitted at ls. duty. That quantity might 1u1S;
been less than was required, but it was enoug,
to falsify their predictions as to the operatia-
of the law. Its effect had been to produce
a gradual fall in the price of corn, and it would be
better that its effect should be tried still further:
Had the price risen to 745. under his plan, corn woula
have come in duty free; while, by the plan of the 11
Government, it would have Leen sulject to a duty'
BS. • He believed, as he had before stated, that Os