The Sun.
London, England, 1845-06-03 00:00:00

GROUP V.

The Committee met this day and proceeded to hear the further
cross examination of Mr. Cope, which had been adjot:rned from
the Saturday evening, on the subject of the traffic tables. The
witness was questioned at great length as to his details, but without
in the slightest degree causing hint to alter the substance of his
tables.

Mr. Skidmore, an accountant and assistant in the formation of
the tables to the last witness, was examined by Mr. BAINES, and
stated that he had placed men on different stations of the intended
and neighbouring lines, and he was satisfied from daily examination
that the returns given were correct. He afterwards assisted Mr.
Cope in making them up.
Mr. Gibbs, C.E., was called, and examined by Mr. ADAM—He
had examined the line, and thought the proposed one the very
best line that could be laid nut. He had examined the estimates,
including the permanent way, and he thought them correct. The
length of the line was 12 miles l furlongs. The gradient de-
scending into Sheffield would be a severe one, but as the bulk of
the waggons would descend it, it would be of the less consequence.
ll^ steepest gradient was 1 in SO, and that was only for a length
of 11 miles. The viaduct into Sheffield he thought constructed in
the best possible manner, but he :could not give an °pi-
as to the value of the property beside it. lie thought
the height of the piers were 25 feet, and he was- of
opinion that they would not inteifere prejudicially with the
market. He believed that there would be sufficient stone taken
from the cuttings on the line to construct the stations, &c. He had
also a list of the borings, some of which he had examined, and he
was of opinion that the different strata on the line were most fa.
vourable.

Cross-examined by Mr. WHATELEY—He did not anticipate any
danger from the fact that the viaduct at Sheffield would be built
over a coal formation, because he observed that near the pro-
posed line they were building churches, large houses, and mane.
factories of infinitely greater weight than a viaduct
20 feet high. He supposed, from the existence of that very fact,
that the coal had not been exhausted. He considered the first ten
miles from Sheffield very heavy work, but he was confident there
were many lines heavier.

Sir J. R. REI D—lf you were asked to lay out a line having re-
ference to these coal.fields, and communicating with Chesterfield
and Sheffield, would you adopt this line 7 ➢lr. Gibbs—l would.
Mr. Ilawkshaw, C.E., said, that without examining the line, the
sections and plans were sufficiently explanatory of the engineering
works upon it, and he fully agreed in the opinion already given by
Mr. Gibbs, and on a preceding day by Mr. Vignolles.
The Committee adjourned till to-morrow.

GROUP W.
DRAYTON AND GOOLE RAILWAY.

The Committee on this line met to-day at 12 o'clock, Mr.
Pakington, chairman ; Lord Seymour, the Hon. Mr. Maxwell, Mr.
Bouverie, and Mr. Whitmore present.
The examination of the merits of the proposed line was then
continued, and

Mr. Fletcher, whose evidence was partly heard on Saturday,
proceeded to state that 2,500 tons of stone were yearly sent from
the quarries in the neighbourhood of Leeds, and exported from
Goole. A line was at present being constructed near the quarries,
which would greatly increase the facilities of exportation. Some
of the docks and bridges at London have been built with the stone
from this district. The proposed line would greatly increase this
trade. The chief market for the stone was London. Woodhouse stone
was an excellent stone for common purposes. Coals at present
came on the Leeds and Selby line. Thought that coal would
come from the collieries in the West Riding by the proposed line
to Goole. From his opinion of the comparative merits of Goole
and Selby, as ports for the exportation of the coal of the district,
a great portion of the coal which now went to the latter place, would
if this line were formed, go to Goole. About 50,000 tons of mer-
chandise (sugar, wool, indigo, soap, spirits, fuller's-earth &c.) came
from London to Goole in the year 1844. This quantity all went
to the Bradford and Leeds district. A great proportion of
this quantity would go by this line. Keeps two steam-
boats for passengers, one plying between Goole and
York, and the other between Hull and York. There was another
party who had a vessel plying between Hull and York. Received
2501. per week as his gross receiptslfor the Goole boat, and rather
more for goods. The receipts of the other boat he should say
were more. The receipts of the Hull boats from Goole to York were
about the same as the Goole boat, but from Hull double that amount.
In his opinion the whole of this traffic now shipped at Selby would
be trans:erred to Goole. It would be very injurious to himself.
The feeling at Goole was very much in favour of the proposed line.
In his opinion the corn from the eastern district would continue
to be conveyed by water from Goole inland, in preference to any
railway.
Cross-examined by Mr. WiLxixs —Did not know whether stone
could come down by railway. A considerable portion of this stone
came from Bradford. About 30,000 tons came from Halifax,
and the districts on the Manchester and Leeds line. Probably
half of the wool that goes from Goole goes to Bradford. Thought
that if the Wakefield, Pontefract, and Poole line were made direct
and saved four miles in the distance, it would be a preferable
one to the Brayton and Goole line. The cost of carriage for sugar
from London to Leeds was Ss. 4d. per ton. Of this sum ss. was
for the sea carriage, and 3s. 4d. by canal. If the rail charged 2d.
per ton per mile, the canal would be a cheaper mode of conveyance.
The Leeds and Selby Railway Company made an offer to take his
goods at a low rate from Selby to Leeds, but he preferred to con-
tioue sending them by the Aire and Calder canal.
By Mr. Buss—Shipped 2,000 tons of coals twice in November,
am' twice in December last year at Goole, for London. It was a
winning trade. It came by boats from York. He is at present
under a contract to ship 700 tons weekly from Goole. The time of
t he commencement of the contract did not depend on the construction
of any railway. Could not say of his own knowledge where the stone
that heshipped from Goole came from. Sent 10,240 tons of general
merchandise last year from Goole to Leeds by water. Included in this
1,014 tons of wool, or thereabouts. He got in returned cargoes
from Leeds, 300 tons of goods.
By Mr. KNOWLES—He had received that morning a letter in re-
ference to a large contract for coals, which was made with the pros-
pect of the proposed line being laid down.
Mr. Hamer Stansfield, examined by Mr. KNOWLES—Was Mayor
of Leeds last year. Was extensively engaged in trade with Ger-
many for the last eight years. Had a house in Hamburgh. Ex-
ported from 300 to 400 tons of worsted stuff goods annually.
Before the Hull and Selby line was made his goods went
to Goole for exportation. When the line from Selby to
Hull was made, he changed his shipping port for
Null, but if the present Brayton and Goole line were laid down
he would go back to Goole. His reason for so doing would be the
increased facility for dock accommodation, as well as being a more
direct line (saving a distance of twenty miles), and also the
cheaper rates which the competition would necessarily
cause. The proposed line would afford greater accommodation
than the Wakefield and Goole line.

Cross-examined by Mr. Wtxxiws—Had shares in the York and
North-Midland Counties, and several other lines. A great part of
the goods from Bingley, Shipley, and other towns in that district,
were taken to Bradford. If the Wakefield and Goole line were
four miles shorter than the proposed one, it would be preferable as
a transit from Goole to Bradford ; but he considered the gradients
of the Brayton and Goole line were much better, and more than
counterbalanced the saving in distance of the Wakefield and
Goole line.

By Lord SEvatourt—Said that the propose° line, if carried out,
would have the effect of making Goole and Hull competing ports ;
and, on the same principle, he would have no objection to have
both lines, believing that thereby a stimulus would be given to trade.
Mr. Alihewson. a merchant, resident in Newcastle. upon. Tyne,
was next examined. He stated that he was engaged in the mans.
facture of sod; bleaching powders, and chemical preparations. He
sent 400 tons annually to Manchester, but in consequence of the in-
sufficiency of railway accommodation, he could not send it direct, but
was obliged to send it by ship to Liverpool, and thence to Man-
chester. He could send it by rail at present, but he would be
obliged to send it a distance of 200 miles of a round about. The
route in that case would be from Newcastle to Darlington, from
Darlington to York, from York to Normanton, and
thence to Manchester. The cost by this mode would be enormous,
the cost by ship, aid Liverpool, was 255. per ton. They were
frequently two months in getting to Manchester at present by ship.
If the Manchester and Leeds Company conveyed his goods at the
same rate as the other lines, about id. per ton, the cost by rail
from Newcastle to Manchester would be 275. 6d. per ton; but
the Manchester and Leeds Company would not do so, for the
purpose (as he thought) of sending the traffic to the port of Hull.
Cross-examined by Mr. WILKINS. There were manufactories
for soda, alkali, and soap, at Liverpool, Warrington, and Hull.
Thought he bad facility to supply the Manchester trade at as cheap
a rate as any of those places, notwithstanding the increased cost
of carriage which he would have to pay from Newcastle. Supplied
three-fourths of the crystals of soap used in the kingdom. Had a
great hand in the making over of the North Midland Railway to
Mr. Hudson.

Mr. James Allport, manager of the Newcastle and Darlington
line, was next examined, and gave evidence, at great length, on the
nature, extent, and cost of carriage of the traffic on the line with
which he was connected, and read portions of a long correspon-
dence, detailing the negotiations he had been engaged in with Capt.
Lawes on the part of the Manchester and Leeds Company. On the
cross-examination of this witness, he admitted that Mr. Hudson
had the command of lines of railway to almost all the towns on the
eastern coast of England.

Mr. Arthur Maude examined by Mr. PICKERIND—Was a sugar_
refiner at Goole. Supplied Leeds, Bradford, York, Liverpool, and
Manchester with sugar, but principally the three first. He sent
1,200 tons annually to these places. Consumed from twenty to
thirty tons of coal weekly in the manufacture of it. This wit-
ness pointed out the great advantage which he, in common with
others in the town of Goole, would derive from the formation of
this litre by having increased facilities for the conveyance of their
manufactures, and also by being able to procure coals, &c., more
conveniently and cheaply.
As the cross.examination of this witness was about to com-
mence, the Speaker was announced to be at prayers, and the Com-
mittee adjourned till twelve o'clock to-morrow.

GROUP X.
LONDON AND YORK LINE.

The Committee sat this day at twelve o'clock, in Committee-
room No. 8.

Mr. S. C. DENISON announced that he appeared on behalf of
Lord Scarborough.
Mr. Sergeant WRANGIIAM—IS it to the preamble of the Bill?

C HA I RM A N—Yes.

Mr. Sergeant WRANGMAM said he understood that the petitions
of lat.downers were confined to Sir William Milner, he being the
only one who appeared at the time.

Mr. DENISON said that this was the first time he appeared before
the Committee, and did so now, because he had been led to under.
stand that the power of Lord Scarborough to appear at any time
during the investigation had been reserved to Lord Scarborough.
The CHAIRMAN said that that was his impression.

---
Mr. M. SMITH then proceeded to cross-examine Mr. Cubitt, but
the noise in the room rendered the questions and answers for a
few minutes inaudible. The witness was understood to say that
it was in September, 1844, he was appointed engineer to the line. The
line proposed to go about three miles through Lord Salisbury's
property ; did not hear that the Company were about to abandon
that. The number and names of all the stations on the line had
not been at all fixed. The stations on such a line formed a very
important item in the estimate. There were to be stations at Lon-
don and York, besides ten other stations of the first class, ten of
the second, and twenty of the third class. He allowed 350,000/.
for all the stations—that was to say, 150,0001. for the
London, 50,000/. for the York, and 150,0004. for all
the other stations; on the loup there was to be one station at every
ten miles at an average; for the station at Sheffield he allowed
7,000/. ; had estimatad the ten main stations at county towns at
10,000/. each, inclusive of land; thinks that would he ample; has
not fixed on the places for the stations in the different towns ; the
quantity of land required for each depended upon local circum-
stances ; say from an acre to three acres for each ; even considering
the establishment of coal depots, the money he had mentioned
would be sufficient if all this was exclusive of the London station.
The CHAIRMAN here referred to the direct evidence of the wit.
nets, and said he had given 117,680/. as the sum for land.
The witness said that was for land for the line merely.
To the COUNSEL—The 50,0001. for the stations on the loop in-
cluded the land. The Lincoln station would cost 15,000/., partly
inclusive of land, and partly not. Doncaster station came in as a
country town station ; the cost, 10,000/. The same with regard to
Gainsberough and Bawtry. The cost of the bridge over the Swan
Pool, at Lincoln, he had already given ; it was 1,319/. The
bridge ever the Treat, at Gainsborough, would cost 10,0001. Did
not know that the line from London to Selby could be made at 164
miles.

To Mr. Wells—The heaviest cutting on the line was 1,112,212
cubic yards ; part of that would cost 28,3511., and part 25,0001.
The estimate of 3,0001. per mile for carriage would include the
carriage for coals,

To Mr, DENNISON.—The station at Sheffield, on the Bantry
line, would run into the existing Sheffield station, therefore it
would not cost much, but he had allowed 4,0001. for
that. The present station at Sheffield is quite sufficient for present
purposes. The 4,0001. did not include lard, for the station would
be on the line. Did not survey the Sheffield line, but had it done
by an accredited agent, for whom he was responsible, but had gone
over the line himself. It was surveyed by Mr. Fairbank, engineer,

of Sheffield. The gradients on this line were as follows, beginning
at Bawtry :-1 in 125, 1 in 173, 1 in 120, 1 in 121,, 1 in 127. 1 in
146, 1 in 120, 1 in 120, 1 in 178, 1 in 100, 1 in 120, 1 in 122, 1
in 554, 1 in 640, 1 in 268, 1 in 397 ; that was to sal, there were
56 yards of level on the whole distance; there were two tunnels on
the lino ; one was 1,930 yards, and the ettia. 1.245 yards ; the
strata was principally rock. The longest tunnel was near Sheffield,
and the strata consisted alternately of clay and soil, and very little
water. The cost he hal estimated at 60.?. per yard fot wale'. Tun-
nelling was the most difficult and intricate work in engineering.
Mr. DENNISON—And therefore required the greater care and
minuteness before making an estimate Y—l wasn't going to add
that.—(Laughter.) It required more experience than either. There
were four stations on the line.

To Mr. PICKERING, on behalf of Sir William Milner—Witness
knows Sir William's estate. Does not know how near the line
will go to Manapleton Park. It was more than 8-10ths of a mile
from the house itself; cannot say for what distance; cannot say
whether it was at the hack or front of the house; if the York and
North Midland line should be formed, the house would be placed
in the fork of the two lines; cannot say if any of the farm-houses
were to be cut off

The witness was re-examined by Mr. Sergeant Kixor-AKE,
with a view to explain some of the answers given by him in cross,
examination, in reference to the slips of embankments, gradients
cost of stations, &c., but none of the answers s•: ere of any impor-
tance. Ile said that the cost of the first 20 miles out of London
would be about 38,0001. per mile, or a gross sum of 776,607/.;
exclusive of the cost of land on the London station.

Mr. DERBY—Suppositig the owners of the present station at
Sheffield should not agree to allow you to cross it, have you sche-
duled land for a station for }ourself? The witness first said he
had not, then he looked at souse documents, and said he consi-
dered the 4,0004. would be sufficient, with the land to be taken in
the deviation.

Mr. DERBY—But the present station at Sheffield occupies a
great deal of room, 1 see by the map. Where have you scheduled
for land for a separate station, if you are not allowed to cross the
present station ? We will cross it on a level.
Mr. Betts, of Southampton, railway contractor—Has had the
contract for several railroads. Has estimated for the works on
the London and Yorkshire, and is quite satisf►ed that the prices he
has named would be sufficient to cover all expenses. The lire
presented no engineering difficulty, and it could be executed in
three years, if the land were had.
Cross-examined by Mr.-Hum-Ann—Contracted for the Vaux_
hall and Weymouth line, and a line to Southampton; also the line
from Rugby to Leicester. Part of the: Croydon line was choked
up about two years ago by a slip of embankment, which was
made of London clay. Could not say what contractor would under.
take the whole of the London and York line. Was ready himself
to uudertake the contract for the whole, or a portion, of the line.
Mr. Betts, jun.,— Was willing to run the same risk as his father
in contracting for the whole of this line or any part of it.
Mr. John -Tuttle, land valuator—Had valued the country along
the line between Peterborough and East Redford. The acreage
was 711 acres, and 61 acres on the Stamford branch ; but valued
the whole at 122,5011., or thirty-three years' purchase.
Cross.examined—Had gone as high as Si. an act e per annum ;
255. was the minimum, and took 50 per cent, for insurance ; did
not take into account any sum to be paid by the Company under
peculiar circumstances.

Re-examined—Had taken some land as high as 4651. per acre.
Mr. George Smith, land and house valuer—Had valued the
hr uses, &c., at King's.cross. Had included 59 acres altogether.
Is of opinion that that ground could be purchased for 208,262/.
To Mr. Elltuvanu—Did not consider where the Small Pox
Hospital, which will be removed, is to be rebuilt. There
were a great many occupiers of houses In the 10 acres, and about
240 houses. Could not tell by what tenure they held. There
were no houses on the 49 acres. Had valued about SO acres alto-
gether, from 'King's-cross to Hornsey.

Mr. Jarvis had valued the land on the line from Hornsey-
wood to Sandy, 45 miles, or 587 acres area, on the Bedford
branch ; had set down their value at 97,8581.

To the Committee—Had made the valuation upon a calculation
of thirty-three years' purchase.
The Committee then adjourned.

GROUP XX.
THE TAW VALE RAILWAY.

The Committee met at a quarter-past two o'clock, Mr. Vernon
smith in the chair.

There was only one witness examined as the Bill was unopposed,
and nothing of any public interest took place. It may be added
that the line is only three miles in length.

THE NAVY.
(FR:IOM A CORRESPONDENT.)
SlR,—The subject of manning the navy has recently
much occupied the attention of Parliament, and the dis-
cussions and observations of naval men in the House have
led to no results of a beneficial character ; in fact the
subject has ended where it began, and is an induce-
ment to me, as a friend of the service, to submit
through your influential columns a F.cherrle, a practical
and simple scheme, for not only manning the fleet in
time of peace, but also of keeping it manned and ready
against any sudden emergency.
Three modes of entry into the navy are proposed with
corresponding methods of discharge—calculated to meet
the natural habits of sailors, and at the same time guard-
ing against their caprices.

The first should be, as is actually now the case, and
which extends voluntarily from the time of joining
that of paying oil—or any broken period of the
service, usually about tin ee-4nd-a-half years.
The second should be by a voluntary enlistment for a
term, say seven years, which is on the average the time
occupied in two foreign stations. These men to receive
a bounty of four pounds, either in clothes or money—as
may be necessary, and to be registered at the nearest
dock-yard by the clerks oF the Cheque.
To be permitted at any convenient period, upon testi_
mony of general good conduct, to obtain their discharge
upon finding a sufficient substitute, and repaying the
bounty they received.

Ou the completion of one station, and the paying off
of the ship in which they have served—to be discharged
into the nearest flag-ship, receiving two-thirds of the
pay which may be due to them, to have at least a
month's leave if they wish it, and on rejoining to receive
the remainder.

At the end of seven years to be permitted to renew
their term of service in either way, and to count all the
time they may serve, whether broken or continuous, for
the usual rate of pension.
The third method of entry should be of boys, which
can be most readily obtained, with clothes and necessa-
ries of the value of fifty shillings.
Every boy to enter as a volunteer for the navy so long
as his service may be required, and on the paying off of any
ship or vessel in which he may have served, to be sent
to the nearest flag-ship, and to have leave of absence in
the same form and manner as stated in the second
method.

At the end of the first station, and on being dis-
charged into the flag-ship, to be carefully examined by
medical men, and if physically likely to be of good
service to the State, to be retained in the service ; and if
otherwise, restored to their friends, or to their parishes.
The boys also to be registered like men of the second
method by the nearest clerk of the Cheque, and in like
manner to be discharged upon their own request, and
certificate of good conduct from their captains ifr com-
manders.

Many other minor regulations might be introduced to
make the inducement stronger, conceived in a spirit and
latitude of great liberality, and removing most if not all
the obstacles and prejudices at present in existence,
making the fleet the greatest nursery of its own seamen,
as well as of retaining those who have been trained in
the duties and exercises of a ship of war, and which ex-
tend much beyond the knowledge of sailors brought up
in the m.rchant service, and who have one sirnng feel-
ing against the naval service, from the prevalence of
the soldier-like instruction now in practice, and in sonic
vessels of war carried out to a considerable extent.

In the hope that these suggestions may meet the at-
;ention of those who have power to improve or adopt
;hem for the benefit of the fleet and of the country,
I remain, Sir, your obedient servant,

Y. Z.