The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-12 00:00:00

scarcely one of which was carried out to its extreme length,
while +ll subsisted together in harmony, producing
the happiness and welfare of the people. Who that
recollected the struggle attendant on the Reform Bill,

and the arguments regarding poirilar rights which
were then brought forward, but must be surprised
to see how the apparent consequences to be drawn
fro m these arguments, had been checked by the good sense
and the good understanding of the people. He believed that
scarcely any person on either side of the House could have
enticit ated before and during that great constitutional
struggle, how rapidly the principles advanced during that time
were checked in their action by the reflection of the sober-
minded people of England. He did not bring- this forward as
a matter of controversy ; he took it for granted, that to a great
event they were all agreed u; cn it as a matter of fact ; and,
at any rate, it was good for his purpose to this extent, that
it most not he signed as if everything apparently involved in
this measure must of necessity- be carried into effect. Granted
that this was an important measure—granted that it was a great
to, n--that it might not have the effect of allaying agitation—
still he believed that, upon the whole, the measure was called
for by justice—that it was required by the state of the country;
and that he felt that there was no principle on which he
could t:.ke his stand in resis6ng it. He hoped, therefore, that
th,s measure of his Right Hon. Friend, notwithstanding the
great sacrifice of feeling and of prepossessions which it un-
doubtedly called upon the people of England to make, would
pass into a law, aed would receive, if not the sanction, at least
the acquiescence, of the country—that they would recollect the
feelings of others as well as their own—that they would abate
somewhat of their claims in deference to the law which boiled
' the people of the country together, and that they would sacri-
fice what was agreeable to themselves in the hope of benefiting
the country. He had no occasion to detain the House longer.
While he regretted that lie had been obliged to occupy their at-
tenion so long, he was deeply grateful to them fur the indulgence
which they had extended to him. He would not mix up with this
question any matter relating to hints, If personally as an indi-
vidual. It would be a bad compliment to the House if he were
to mix up with a debate on interests so impertant matters so
comparatively trivial as those which related to himself. He
could rather with that his present position might induce the
belief that he inAl formed an honest and impartial conclusion
with regard to this measure, unbiassed by the prejudices. of
position. He believed their best vindication would be to leave
behind them words and vets which would convince posterity
that they of the prestrit day and generation had laboured, with
fallib'e judgre-nts but wi.h honest intentions, to consult the
best interests of those whose social welfare was committed to
their charge.—( The Right Hon. Gentleman sat down amidst
laud cheers.)
The Earl of ARUNDEL and SURREY rose with Mr.
D'lsraeli ; there were loud c. ies for the latter, but he gave
way, and the Noble Earl proceeded to congratulate the Right
Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel), after the speech of the Right
Hun. Gentleman who had just sat down, at now having the
support of every man who was worthy of the name of a states-
man.—( Hear, hear.) The lion. Gentleman the Member for
Dublin had alluded to the want of Catholic petitions for this
measure. The Hon. Gentleman had made a lorg speech, cha-
racterised by amenity of manner, and by language of which no
one could have any right to complain ; but he wished to tell
the Hon. Gentleman that what affected the Catholics of Ire-

land affected also the Catholics of Enland—(Cheers)---that
the Catholics of England rejoiced in any good that was offered
to Ireland, and that they viewed with delight and gratitude the
boon which was about to be bestowed on the Catholics cf Ire-
land by the Right Hon. Baronet. He must say also that the
Hon. Member's speech was full of exploded charges against
the Catholics, and of no doubt unintentional misrepresenta-
tions against Catholic doctrines and principles ; but the real
point of the speech was to be found in the last sentence,
wherein he declared that he opposed the grant, because he was
opposed to the Catholic religion, and that was the real reason
of the violence, and of the "No Popery" cry. The sole
reason was this they said, " You are wrong and we are
right."—( A laugh.) They denied, indeed, any desire to
persecute the Catholics, but they were endowed with no
friendly feeling towards them. They were inflmenced by a
spirit which would have qualified them to become one of the
knights of King Arthur's round-table : a spirit and a frame
of mind which, a few centuries ago, would have made the
Hon. Member for Kent turn him, and some other person turn
the survivor, and that without any great loss to the country.—
( Laughter. ) But, to go back as far as eighteen centuries, sup-
pose the Hon. Member for Kent had been born an Israelite,
and brought up an honest and conscientious Israelite, would
he not, with the same frame of mind and disposition, have de-
sired to impeach the Roman Governor, Pontius Pilate, as the
Hon. Member for Knaresborough now wished to impeach the
Right Honourable Baronet?—(Laughter.) He did not wish
to pick out the Hon. Member for Kent invidiously, but that
Hon. Gentleman had attacked him, and charged him with
being an idolator, to the great amusement of his Right Hon.
Friend the Membrr for Dungarvan, who said he heard him
with a feeling akin to love.—( Hear, and laughter.) The Hon.
Friend of the Member for Kent, the Member for Oxford too,
displayed a sacred spirit, which teemed to qualify him to be
high priest of the Jews.—( Renewed laughter.) He was
no latitudinarian. He was a Catholic in communion
with the Church of Rome by conviction, by examination,
confirmed by those Scriptures which the Catholic were
accused of not being permitted to read.—(Cries of " Hear,
hear.") But, holding that creed and profession, he did most
strenuously abhor and repudiate religious persecution in every
country, and under every creed.—(Cheers.) Whether in
Great Britain, or in Spain, or in Naples, or in Russia, he fully
abhorred and disliked it. —( Hear, hear.) He should not have
done his duty if, before he sat down, he did not pay a tribute,
though a most inadequate and humble one, but certainly a
most unqualified one, of admiration, at the positions in which
the Right Hop. Baronet had placed himself in bringing for-
ward this measure, opposed as he was by a great minority of
his usual supporters. Calm and intrepid, the Right lion.
Baronet bore up against the stream, firm in his determination,
and supported by every true statesman in the United Kingdom ;
and he trusted that he would not merely triumph in this Bill,
but succeed in promoting the pacification of the empire.
Mr. D'ISRA ELI and Mr. SHAW again rose together, and
the calls, as before, were loud and general for Mr. D'lsraeli,
and Mr. Shaw resumed his seat. Sir, said the Hon. Gentle-
man, I should not have intruded for a moment between you
and the Noble Load just now, had 1 had the slightest idea that
he intended to have caught your eye; but the amendment
having been withdrawn, I had an idea, and that supposition is
very general on ti.is side of the House, that we should not
have been honoured,with any declaration of opinion from
any gentleman on the other side of the House. But lam
extremely glad that the Noble Lc rd has had an opportunity
of expressing his opinion on the subject. I trust he does
not for a moment imagine that I rise to say anything offen-
sive to his creed, which I respect, or anything offensive to
himself and his co-religionists, with whom, in many respects,
I sympathise.—( Hear, hear.) I come now to the speech of
the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Newark. My
first impression, when I listened to that extremely able ha-
rangue, was the question why the Right Hon. Gentleman had
passed the gangway to deliver it. —( Hear, and a laugh.) It
seemed to be worthy of the Treasury bench, of that Treasury
bench which that evening he criticised. It seemed to me that
while the Right Hon. Gentleman informed us that though he
supported the present Bill, it was not for the reasons which
were adduced by his late right hon. chief. Nevertheless, had
he been in his positio r. and had he introduced the Bill him-
self, he might have brought forward, perhaps, unanswerable
arguments ; and deeply sensible of what he styled the circum-
stances of the case, he might, perhaps, have arrested the flow
of those petitions which he confesses has astounded him, but
which next week he informs ns will astonish us still more.—
( A laugh.) But if I asked myself for a moment what was the
necessity for the Right Hon. Gentleman passing the gangway
to deliver that speech, ought I not rather to have asked my-
self the question, what was the necessity for the Right Hon.
Gentleman to cross the House to deliver that speech? If those
are the opinions the Right Hon. Gentleman entertains, how
can he, so subtle a casuist as he may be, reconcile the course
which he now pursues to that which he pursued when in op-
position ? Because, after all, what is the result of the very
adroit argumentation and elaborate exposition of the Right
Hon. Gentleman ? it is this, that the principle upon which
the State has hitherto been connected with the ecclesiastical
affairs of this country is worn eut.—( Hear, hear.) We must
seek a new principle, says the Right Hon. Gentleman, and the
Government which I hare left because I support it— ( Laugh-
ter)—that Government has discovered a new principle.—
( Hear, hear. ) But where is the new principle? He tells us
that it is not now definitely and distinctly made out. He ac-
knowledges that the exposition of it is feeble, and, perchance,
vague.—( A laugh.) It is not now complete ; we must look
to futurity. But if this is the case, have there been no prior
attempts to adumbrate this new system, and have no public men
in this House raised their voices to support this principle and
advocate this new settlement. Have they not been, in fact the
foundation of measures brought forward by Governments which
no lot ger exist ? And was not an opposition to those measures,
however imperfect, or however partially advocated, the founda-
tion, not only of the late Opposition, but of the Conservative
theory ?—( Hear.) I am perfectly ready to agree with the Right
Hon. Gentleman that the relation which exists between the
Church and State in this country is an extremely unsatisfactory
one. I have had some opportunities for observation on this head.
1 have been a Member of this House now eight or nine ses-
sions, during a very tempestuous period, the principal part
of which was expended in discussions arising out of that con-
troverted principle. I have read the Right Hon. Gentleman's
book.—(Laughter.) But the Right Hon. Gentleman, in his
argument, has made one great assumption. lie says—You
have endowed the English Church ; you have endowed. the
Anglican Church. Can you, in fact, refuse to endow the
Roman Church ?—( Hear.) But have we, in fact, endowed
the Anglican Church ? ( Hear.) That is the question. We
know that there has been an alliance between the Church and
the State ; and the very term " alliance" shows that they met
on equal terms, and made an equal compact. But the Right
Hon. Gentleman, with all his study of historical lore, and with
that trained casuistry, which exceeds any historical knowledge,
cannot place his finger on any page in history which shows
that the State endowed the Church.—( Hear, hear.) You may
regret it. The ecclesiastical power in this country has a large
estate. You may say that it is predominant, and reason
against the principle, but that it is a fact none can deny. We
deal with it as we deal with the estates of the aristocracy.
Parties may be divided upon that question of the landed in-
heritance of the country. But you cannot deny the fact.
As practical men we deal with great facts in such a way
as to secure the greatest possible benefits. But when we
come to speak of religion a new question arises ; arid the
whole basis of—l will not say the argument—but of the
political expediency of the Right Hon. Gentleman, then en-
tirely fails him. 1 should like to know what principle you will
lay down for the step you are invited to take. I know the
Right Hon. Gentleman who introduced the Bill, and I must
make the sane apology as the Right Hon. Gentleman the late
President of the Board of Trade, for referring to bis speech,
told us that upon this subject there were three courses open to
us. I never heard .the Right lion: Gentleman bring forward
a measure without making the same concession.—(Laughter.)
I never knew the Right lion. Gentleman bring forward, not
what I call a great measure, but a measure which assumes to
settle a great controversy. in which there is a diflerence, with-
out saying that three courses were not open to us. In a
certain sense, and looking to his own position, he is right.
—( Laughter.) There is the course the Right lion. Gen-
tleman has left.—(" Hear, hear," and laughter.) There is
the course that the Right Hon. Gentleman is following ; and
there is usually the course which the Right Hon. Gentleman
ought to pursue.—( Great laughter.) Perhaps, Sir, I ought
to say that there is a fourth course, because it is possible for the
House of Commons to adopt one of those courses indicated by
the Right Hon. Gentleman, and then having voted for it to rescind
it.—( Laughter.) 'I hat is the fourth course, and in future I
trust the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir R. Peel) will not forget
it.—(" Hear," and laughter.) The Right Hon. Gentleman tells
us he always looks back to precedents; he comes with a great
measure, and he always has a small precedent. He traces the
steam-engine always back to the tea-kettle.—( Roars of
laughter). His precedents are generally tea-kettle precedents.
—( Renewed laughter). He comes here boasting If the
principle of the measure to be submitted to our consideration.
The Right Host. Gentleman has always Mr. Percival, or some
old book from a dusty corner, to bring down and throw upon
the table, saying, "You have admitted the principle. Confine
yourselves to the details, Don't trouble yourselves about the
first and second readieg, but reserve all your energies for the
Committtee, because the principle is admitted." Now I deny
that even, in the limited sense the Right Hon. Gentleman
says, it is admitted. In the first place that was a temporary
vote, and this is not ; but, in fact, it is a permanent one. But
I will not make that the ground of opposition to the Right
Hon. Gentleman. I will go to the arguments of the Right
Hon. Gentleman the late President of the Board of Trade; I
am astonished that under present circumstances he seems in
his moment so completely to have supplanted principles. I