The Sun.
London, England, 1842-05-13 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, MAY 13, 1842.

IMPEKIAL PARLIAMENT .
HOUSE OF LORDS, May 12.
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the
Woolsack at Five o'Clock.
THE ADJOURNMENT.
The Duke of WELLINGTON said, he should
to-morrow move the adjournment of the House to
that day week, the 20th May.
Messengers from the Commons, brought, up several
private Bills.
The Earl of ORFORD, who was introduced by the
Earl of Rosebery and Lord Stopford, took the oaths
and his seat.
The Earl of MOUNTCASHEL moved for a re-
turn of all resolutions passed ?Sy the Boards of
Guardians, under the Poor-law Commission, in Ire-
land, since sth May, 1841.—Ordered.
Earl FITZWILLIAM presented a petition from
Halifax against the Corn and Provision-laws.
POOR-LAWS..
Lord WHARNCLIFFE laid on the table the
Eighth annual Report of the Poor-law Commission.
DUBLIN POLICE BILL.
On the motion of Lord WHARNCLIFFE, the
Dublin Police Bill was read a second time. The
Noble Lord said, the object of the Bill was to place
the Dublin police force on precisely the same footing
as the London police.
HOPS.

The Earl of WINCHILSEA presented a petition
from Maidstone, praying for an alteration in the bas-
tardy clauses in the Poor-laws ; also a petition from
Kent against the reduction in the duty on foreign
hops. The petitioners stated that the reduction con-
templated by the Government of 21. per ton would
ruin their trade. He was happy to say that it was
not the intention of her Majesty's Government to pro-
pose so low a duty as 21., for if they did so it would
entirely annihilate the trade in this country.
Earl FITZWILLIAM said that, supposing the
reduction in the duty on hops would injure the
trade, the land would remain capable of being
turned to any other purpose. Now, what he
wanted to draw the attention of the House and the
Noble Earl to, was another point. The other night a
conversation arose respecting the employment of per-
sons in mines. His Noble Friend then expressed great
anxiety concerning the' morals of that part of the
population, which he said was seriously injured
by the employment of females and children in those
mines. Now, as his Noble Friend was so exceed..
ingly desirous of protecting the morals of the inhabi-
tants in the manufacturing districts, he would recom-
mend the Noble Earl to look a little more to the
morals of the persons in the districts with which he
was more immediately connected. He (the Earl of
Fitzwilliam) would turn his attention to what
occurred in the grounds during the time of hop-
picking.—(Loud laughter.) If he would look to
the females there, it would be more useful than his
turning his attention to those who delved in the
bowels of the earth.
The LORD CHANCELLOR—They sovent from
London.—(Laughter.)
Earl FITZWILLIAM—Yes ; they went from
London to corrupt the fine morals of the districts with
which the Noble Earl was connected. Now, surely
the Noble Earl ought to endeavour to prevail upon the
Government, to which he gave his support, to put an im-
port duty upon those articles which were brought down
from London into those very pure places; lest they
should corrupt the morals of the females, and it
might perchance be of the males—(A laugh)—in the
very pure districts of Kent and Sussex.
The Earl of WINCHILSEA said the injury in-
flicted by taking away the protection from the hop-
grower would not affect the hop-groweronly but would
be very detrimental to the agricultural interest. There
were thousands of acres of wood-land in the county
of Kent, which would be utterly valueless if it were
not for the hop-gardens. He himself sold about 125
acres of wood- land. yearly. It was cut down and
used for poles for the hop gardens. If the hop gardens
were destroyed he should not sell more than 35 acres,
for ash poles, and elm poles, and all these poles
were of no use except for the hop-gardens. Now
that would be a great loss to the labouring classes
who were employed in these wood-lands. Great
numbers of labourers were likewise employed in the
cultivation of the hop-gardens ; it was true in some
districts they had induced an artificial increase in the
population, and if the duty was taken off foreign hops,
they would all be in a state of distress. The Noble Earl
had recommended him to look to the morals of the
population in his own immediate neighbourhood. He
begged to state that there was no district in which he
had not established schools capable of affording edu-
cation for the whole of the population. All he asked
was, that the hop-grower should have a fair protec-
tion, such as was given to other classes.
Earl FITZWILLIAM said that it appeared then
that the protection was to be continued, not so much
for the sake of the hops, as for the sake of the wood-lands.
The Earl of WICKLOW: rose to order. If Noble
Lords made speeches on the presentation of petitions
in this manner, they would never be able to get thr,ough
the business.
Earl FITZWILLIAM would move that the House
do adjourn, and thus put himself in order. If the
Noble Earl opposite had always interfered when any
thing disorderly had occurred—whenever any conver-
sation had taken place across the table, on the
.
presentations of petitions, he would have bowed
with submission to the Noble Earl's interference. In
moving that the House do now adjourn, he should make
one one or two observations on what had fallen from the
Noble Earl on the subject of these woods ; it appeared
that they were to protect the hops, not for the sake of
the hops, but for the sake of the growers of the wood
—where woods became less valuable, it was customary
to destroy them, and he had no doubt the Noble Earl
had himself been a great destroyer of woods ; so in the
case of woods cultivated for the sake of hops, if they
became less valuable they might be destroyed, and
that should he the case instead of protecting the hops
for the sake of the woods. He would beg to direct
the attention of the House to the alteration about to
be made in the duties on foreign timber, which he
apprehended would have more effect in deteriorating
the value of woods—"and he did not regret that, be-
cause he thought timber ought to be cheap—than any
alteration in the hop duties would have in diminish-
ing the value of woods grown in the counties of
Kent and Sussex. He had some knowledge of
the woods there—some of them might be cultivated
for the purpose of hop-poles, but he thought by far
the greater part was the natural produce of the coun-
try. He begged to move that the House do now
adjourn.—(Laughter.)
The question was then put, and after a few words
from the Earl of WINCHILSEA, in explanation,
Earl FITZWILLIAM said, with regard to ;he
employment of females in mines, he did not run into
such extravagant opinions as he had seen expressed..
The condition of those employed was influenced by
the width of the coal seams • perhaps it might
be desirable to prohibit the employment of children
in mines, but the necessity of employing children
arose from the thinness of the seams. If Noble
Lords would read the Report with any knowledge of
mining, they would see that the employment of children
was almost entirely confined to the thin seams of the
coal-mines of the West Riding of Yorkshire and
Lancashire.
The Earl of WICKLOW rose to explain that
he meant no disrespect to. the Noble Lord, when
he called him to order ; it was caused by
the Noble Lord's irregularity ; if they were
to take the House collectively, there were no
three Members of it who were guilty of so much
irregularity as the Noble Lord. On a recent occa-
sion he had made no less than five speeches on a sin-
gle petition.
Lord REDESDAL,E said, in the discussion the
other night, the Noble Lord had himself got up in his
place and observed, that he hoped a new rule would
be established, in order that the proceedings might be
more orderl7.
Earl FIT ZWILLIAM—Make a rule.
Lord REDESDALE—The Noble Lord said, make
a rule. There was a rule already in existence, which
was for general purposes sufficiently strict, but unques-
tionably that rule might be abused. He thought
that when a Noble Lord was called to order he
should bow to the call, and not put himself in order,
by moving an
the House, and causing great inconvenience.
adjournment, thus evading the rule of
The LORD CHANCELLOR then put the mo-
tion for an adjournment, which was negatived without
a division.

—_
INCOME-TAX.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said he rose in
conformity with:the notice which he had put upon the
paper, to move for certain returns relating to the ex-
emption of foreigners from the operation of the tax,
commoply called the Income and Property-tax. In
doing t) he did not wish to engage the House
in any premature discussion with regard to the me-
rits of the property-tax. Upon the contrary, he
would confine himself strictly to the point to which
these returns related ; and if he deemed it his
duty to make some observations
in moving for
such returns, his justification must be the
great importance of the subject. The rea-
son why he called their attention. to this sub-
deiaernl
ti
sub-
ject was, that unquestionably . this was the first
time the income enjoyed by foreigners. in other parts
of the world, arising from property in this country,
had been made the subject of taxation. There
was, he believed, soon after the Revolution, an at-
tempt made to place a dutye
quonitabmlec,onlore
in the course of the first French war, Mr. Pitt intro-
duced an Income-tax upon all incomes enjoyed by
Mr. Pitt
ititn
thatEn England, but bjuustt, it never occurred to
income, but
; determined
to include foreigners in the operation of that
tax. Subsequently that. tax. was
with the. war with which it originated
Lord Sidmouth. proposed what was called a
Prolicrty.-tax, wit . which did. not materially differ
fr(n":1 the .;titcr tux;. and that imposition was not ex-
tended to foreigners. Two years afterwards it fell to

his lot, in concert with the Government with which
he was connected, to propose an alteration and modi-
fication of the Property-tax so introduced ; but
it never occurred to those with whom he had
acted, that it would either be expedient
or just to extend the Act to foreigners possessed of
property in the funds. He might here say that a
very natural change did take place in the measure,
which so far altered its form and appearance with re-
spect to the funds, as to suggest the idea of fo-
reigners being taxed. By the consent of all parties,
and the Bank Directors, they were enabled
to act as Commissioners, and they received at the Bank
that portion of the fund which was subject to taxation,
and subject also to go into the public purse.
But they did so as Commissioners. It was a deduction
made from the tax on incomes, which they would
find was gradually and carefully provided for in a
clause of that Act, constituting the Directors to act as
Commissioners under the Income-tax, showing that it
was not a tax on the funds, but a tax on incomes, for
which purposes they were made Commissioners. It was
then suggested for the first time that it would be ex-
pedient to include foreigners in other countries, not
being subjects of his Majesty, under the operation of
the tax. But he (Lord L.) recollected that the sug-
gestion was resisted with the very general concur-
rence of the House, and in the course of what had passed
very strong opinions were given that it would be both
unjust and inexpedient to subject that species of
property to the tax. He adverted to this, because
he heard that Mr. Fox, whose opinion was naturally
considered to be of great importance, had objected
to the inclusion of foreigners in the tax as a matter
of expediency only, and not as a matter of
justice. He (Lord L.) entirely differed on that
point, and he referred to the report of Mr. Fox's
opinions, the words of which he would read to their
Lordships, and he would leave them to judge
whether they would consider Mr. Fox's opinion
to be one founded on expediency. Mr. Fox said,
" that he differed from the opinion expressed
by the Honourable Gentleman (Sir P. Francis)
on the subject. For his part, he considered a tax
such as he recommended a shameful confiscation.
The Bill under the consideration of the Committee
was not one for taxing foreigners, but British sub-
jects. He thought such a measure was a flagrant
breach of faith, and that if the revenue was to cease,
yet he thought it :his duty to reject it." Now
whether right or wrong, he apprehended that the
opinion of Mr. Fox was opposed to the injustice, and
not alone to the inexpediency of the tax ; and let it
be recollected that Mr. Fox was giving his
opinion conformably with the course of conduct
pursued by Mr. Pitt, and again by Mr. Addington,
and which, when Mr. Fox unhappily ceased to exist,
was pursued by Mr. Percival when the question was
brought under the consideration of Parliament. He
affirmed that there was here a mass of authority against
the inexpediency and injustice of including foreigner,
in the tax ; and when the Bill for taxing the property
of England was first introduced, the declarations
successively made in Parliament were calculated to
give foreigners an inducement to become creditors
to this country, and that the property which they
placed in the funds would be free from taxation.
These foreigners should be treated in the same way
as a mortgagee in this country should be treated by
his mortgager. They said, if these foreigners who were
their creditors were dissatisfied theymust sell out. That
was an argument which might be carried a great
deal too far, because, it might be applied some day
to the English creditors, and it might be said to them,
if they were dissatisfied, that they might sell out.
It all those cases, howeier, where the English creditor
should be hurt it would! be his own fault, because he
was represehted in Parliament;•but the foreigner had
no means of being represented. in Parliament; he
had lent them money on the promise that he
should receive the dividend free, and without de-
duction. That ,was the opinion he entertained
as to the justice, or 'rather, the injustice of this
proceeding ; and if he entertained. so strong an
opinion as to the injustice of the proceeding, he also
entertained a strong opinion of its inexpediency, be-
Cause he could not see that, the adding of some
10,0001. or 20,0001. or 30,0001. a-year to a tax of
many millions, was to be in the least compared with
that reputation and established credit for which
this country had been so long distinguished in
all parts of the world. A case might occur
at some distant period, when they might be called
upon to uphold the security of British capital in
other countries ; and then they might employ, if
they could, the argument that they had, in the
midst of all their distresses, carefully guarded them-
selves against the slightest deduction of that in-
terest which they had to pay to the foreign creditor. He
bad seen with great sorrow any attempted deviation
from that course which had been adopted for so many
years in this country, and which had the sanction of
so many Parliaments. 'He had taken the opportunity
of stating his opinion on this matter, in moving for
these returns. lie did not know whether the papers for
which he moved could be produced ; he knew it was
very likely that a great part of them had been involved
in that sort of auto da fe which had caused such de-
struction amongst the papers. If, however, they
were not destroyed, they might, perhaps, be obtained
from some returns which had been moved for in the other
House. The Noble Marquis, concluded by moving
for a return of the exemptions given to foreigners
from the Income-tax on former occasions. _

Tin- Earl of RIPON did not apprehend that there
could be any objection to the motion of the Noble Mar-
quis, or any difficulty in complying with it. The sub-
ject was undoubtedly one of great importance ; and the
Noble Marquis was perfectly entitled in forming with
respect to it the opinion to which he had come. He
(the Earl of Ripon) confessed, however, that he had
not been satisfied by the reasoning of the
Noble Marquis, that the proposal to subject
the property of foreigners to the same impost
as other property was an unjust proposal. He did
not think that there would be any violation of the
principles of justice in calling upon all parties
who had an interest in the maintenance of
the public credit of this country to contribute
to the public burdens. Mr. Pitt had no doubt ex-
empted the property of foreigners from the
Income-tax ; but it appeared to him (the Earl
of Ripon) that in doing so he had been
influenced, not so much by considerations of
abstract justice, as by considerations of policy and
public expediency. At the time when Mr. Pitt's
Property-tax was imposed this country was
subjected to great and unusual burdens ; and
it was thought admissible, under those cir-
cumstances, that every possible means should be
resorted to for the purpose of raising the credit of the
country, in order to give increased facility for raising
public loans. The same remark applied to the
circumstances under which subsequent Property-
taxes were imposed. Although he was ready to admit
that Mr. Fox seemed to have gone upon the prin-
ciples of abstract justice, he confessed, however, that
he did not see how the principles applied in the case.
The Property-tax was imposed for the purpose of avoid-
ing perpetual borrowing, consequently in that point
of view the foreigner had the same interest in
any measure that might have the effect of avoid-
ing that necessity in the holders of that property,
as Englishmen had'? He had the same interest in the
welfare of the public credit, as any other person who
had property in the public funds. He (the Earl of
Ripon) could, therefore, see no grounds of abstract
injustice, in calling on the foreigner to contribute his
share to the tax.
Lord MONTEAGLE would take that opportunity
of saying a few words on the subject. The Noble
Earl who had just sat down had made no answer to
the observation of the Noble Marquis behind, him (the
Marquis of Lansdowne,) in respect to the altered cir-
cumstances of the country since the time of the first
enactment of the Property-tax. He (Lord Monteagle)
would admit, for argument sake, and for argument
sake alone, that foreigners had een exempted upon
selfish grounds, for the mere purpose of keeping up the
funds. Assuming this, the foreigner would expect
that he would be protected by the Legislature,
as he had been previously. With respect to a
case of expediency, the expediency was now felt more
than ever. This course must affect British invest-
ments in foreign stocks. Let the Noble Earl
compare the list of the funds in 1797 or 1798 to
1803 or 1804, in 1814 or 1815, with the list now
and he would then find the enormous mass of
British capital which at the present moment was in-
vested in the foreign funds, all attendant upon the fate
of foreign Governments. Anterior Governments had
been scrupulous on this point, and he thought the
present Government ought to be equally scrupulous.
And what was the sum to be raised:by this course ?
The Noble Earl estimated it at from 10,0001. to
30,000/. a year, but it would certainly be below the
mean of that sum. He thought this course would.
endanger British capital abroad.
Lord BROUGHAM said he did not wish to pro-
long the discussion which had been so pro-
perly introduced. He entirely agreed with his
Noble Friend that it would be exceedingly unwise
to extend the Property-tax to foreigners, that it would
be highly inexpedient, for the sake of the trifling
sum which could be obtained from foreigners
by means of this tax, to give a pretext to
other countries to deal in a similar way with funds of
ours which were under their control. He thought
unless the justice of it was so manifest that no
argument against it could be adduced, it would be
exceedingly impolitic, especially when he consi-
dered how much larger was the stake of this country
in foreign funds than the stake of foreigners in English
funds. He thought the authorities which his Noble
Friend had cited on the subject--the authority of
Mr. Fox, of Lord Grey, and of Lord Grenville,
entirely established the point, and he hoped that after
what had been stated the motion would be acceded to.
If the matter was delayed until the Bill came up for
discussion, it would be too late fir his Noble Friend's

purpose. .
The Earl of WICKLOW could not see any in-