The Sun.
London, England, 1829-03-19 00:00:00

feringe were caused by the absence of their friends, and
that the desperate calamity was engendered—not by the
plague—but by the distance and the absence of the rela-
tions of those who were perishing.—(Cheers.)—lt might
be very well for the poor sufferers that their friends were
there and about them in this disastrous extremity—arid
laws to prevent absenteeism, and to introduce poor laws
into Ireland, might do very well in their way ; but first, I
say, cure the plague which the penal laws have engendered
and spread throughout the whole of society there.—(Loud
cheers.) To do any thing before this shall be accom-
plished, is only to tamper with disease—to insult the
sufferers, without affording a relief for the affliction
under which they suffer.—(Hear, hear.)—The Hon.
Member (Mr. Sadler) next referred to a passage in a
speech of a Right Honourable Relative of mine (Mr.
C. Grant), and endeavoured to draw from his speech
that it was the opinion of my Right Honourable Re-
lative that the evils of society in Ireland proceeded
from local oppression. But this sentiment of my Right
Honourable Relation, as to the evils of local oppres-
sion, did not preclude the consideration of the great and
powerful operation of the penal laws in Ireland in creat-
ing and aggravating the evils to that country. On the
contrary, the whole argument of his speech went to show
that these laws contributed to perpetuate and make worse
the state of local oppression, and to prove that the remedy
for all those evils was not local but general, and that that
general remedy consisted in the measure of relief now
brought forward by his Majesty's Government. The
Hon. Member proceeded to contend that the evils of Ire-
land had long existed, and seemed to infer from their long
continuance that they should be perpetuated. It would
seem from the speech of the Hon. Member that there was
something in the destiny of Ireland—some fatality im-
pending over it, that it should be consigned to perpetual
misery, and that as soon as one form of suffiring had ex-
pired, its spirit should be transmigrates] into some new
form or body of affliction.—(Hear, hear.)—ln pursuing
this argument the Hon. Member contended that the evils
of Ireland did not emanate from the penal laws, for they
existed antecedent to- the Reformation. I would refer the
Hon. Member to a high authority—that of Sir John Da-
vies—who tells you that the causes of the evils that existed
in former times arose from the refugel to give to the
Irish an equality of laws with the English ; and as the
English could not eradicate them from the country, this
reluctance to communicate equality of laws perpetuated
the discontent and misery of the nation. The words
of Sir John Davies were—" Whereby it is manifest
that such as had the Government of Ireland under the
Crown of England did intend to make a perpetual separa-
tion and enmity between the English and the Irish, pre-
tending (no doubt) that the English should in the end root
out the Irish ; which the English not being able to do, did
cause a perpetuall warre betweene the nations; which
continued foure hundered and odde years."—(Loud cries of
hear, hear.)—The evils and discontents which had been
created by the refusal of the English to giant equal laws
to the Irish in former times have been continued in more
modern times by the refusal of the Protestants to concede
equal laws to ti e Catholics; and so the Hon. Member
might perceive that a system of exclusion and injustice
since the Reformation, as well as antecedent to it, had been
alike productive of evil consequences to Ireland and to the
general interests of the empire.—( Hear, hear.)—Of the
objections which have been taken to this measure, the most
prominent appear to be the dangers to he apprehended
from the passing of this measure to the Protestant establish
ments—the absence of a necessity for passing, and a feel-
ing of national pride in not admitting the Catholics to an
equality with ourselves. The two first of these subjects
have been already so fully answered, and the topics are al-
ready so exhausted that I shall address very little to the
House upon them. From the tone of the petitions, it is
minifest that a very general objection lies to what in these
petitions is called the granting of political power to
the Catholics. But this measure does not confer poli-
tical power ; the Roman Catholics have it; it only re-
strains its exercise, and prevents its existence in a way that
threatens the safety of our establishments. It is far better
to transfer the power of the Catholic Association to this •
House, than that it should exist as a separate body—levy-
ing taxes, ordaining decrees; and that the Government
should sometimes be indebted to it for the ignominious
safety of preserving the peace which the laws and autho-
rity of Parliament alone should enforce. Can Hon. Gen-
tlemen be blind to the true alarm which is to be found in
the necessity that has existed of having five-sixtlis of the
army in a time of peace—if such a state of things can be
called a time of peace established in Ireland ? If the
Catholic Association has aggravated the condition of society
which had made the presence of such a f, rce necessary, the
best way to controul and regulate its power is to transfer
it to this House; and I am convinced that the practical
effent of the meesure will be to diminish, and not to in-
crease, ;hat political power, or, in other words, the danger
arising from that political power, of which so much serious
apprehension is expressed in these petitions. In short,
that this course will be the safest for all our establish-
ments, common sense unites with reason, policy, and ex-
peeieeee in rreonsmencling.—(Hear.)—At all events there
is no caropaeizen between the security which the measure
will give to our establishmeqte, and the miserable state of
their present precarious existence to which they will he re-
duced unless the proposed measure is adopted.—(Load cfes
ef 'dear, hear.)—lf this measure he successful, and if our
reasomehle expectations be satisfied in the proTerous results
which will attend it? then the problem of our difficulties
and our dangers is solved ; beat if it should be otherwise,
and if, contrary to our hopes and wieheo, a tunics animus
should manifest itself on the part of the Catholics towards
our Protestant establishments, then, at least, we shall not
be in the same situation is which we are now, and shall be
better able and better disposed to encounter it by the con-
sciousness of having done all in our power to appease and
arrest it.—( Hear, hear.)a—The precarious situation, how,.
ever, in which we are forbid that we should remain in it.
Nothing can be more stupid than the line of demarcation
now drawn by our Catholic laws between the Catholic and
the Protestant. Of three practicable principles we have
adopted none. We might once have stood, we did for a
thee stand, on this groned of distinction,—that the Catho-
lic should have neither religious nderetion, nor civil privi-
lege, nor religious establishment. net was a deep and
dark line of demarcation certainly; but, from its very
depth and darkness, it was distinct and well defined.—
We quitted that position. What was the next ? We gave the
Cetilelke. religious toleration, but denied him civil privilege
and religione establishment. That too was a clear and broad
principle of diecrintieatiee ; but we quitted it in 1793.
Quitting it, ought we not to hate eeee that the only prin-
ciple that remained was that of giving to the Catholic
r4igious toleration and civil privilege, which the spirit of
the Coentleution says he ought to have, and denying to
him religious eraohlishrnent, which it says lie ought not
to receive? No, we die! not do this; we gave him civil
privilege, but we gave it only neetielly ; we gave it in the
most reiechievous manner; conceding theeleetive franchise,
but withholding the right of being elected. Tut is, we
gate civil privilege to, the lower members of the Catholic
people, but denied it to their gestural leaders. The principle
of our Constitution being (es even the Member for Newark
admitted last night), that property should tell against num-
ber, sr had to conferred privileges on the Catholics, that,
among them, number must tell against property. The
fatal effects of such a system were foretold by bail Flan-
kett,—were foretold by Mr. Canning,—and are still mote
,forcibly illustrated by the late Clare Election.--(Hear,
lteer.),—What then remains but to adopt now the third
peeiteen ? and meanie nature of the measure now pro-
posed by the wisdom and jeeetice. of Government ?--(Hear.)
Things cannot map here; eithee lees should heye been
done, or more must be geanted. Nottviihstandieg the
declaration of the Hon. Member fn; Newark, I con tend,
that granting the Catholics all they have bit ince:
.1O(1 so
ane..ieneely, and so unremittingly sought for, and what wen
law of P,elinien and Nature entitled them to, is in the
spirit offs in feet perfecting—the Constitution.—(dear,
hear.)- .T majority of iu ,edherents, will, wider the
worst circumetaecee, uphold the Pectastant established
Church of the country. Seppeeieig that the measure before
the House should have an egeet eentrary to whatitssuppore
ers confidently predicted, let the House -to the different
eanetion in which the Catholics would stand in reiatino to
e Peotestants if they were admitted to the benefits of tits
CoustitUtion, aasd if they were pertnanently excluded.
In the latter .cteeee ae,.they now stood they presented no tan-
gible point for the Legieletu,ee to ley hold by ; in the for-
mer, they would be a distinct .h.Ctiaa By exclusion, the
Protestants are rendered a divided liodye
ageinst a united body of Roman Catholics;
they will be a compact body against a divided
body of .tbe lettene—(hear, hear)—and no one sect or
other. Besides, the
F44Guliernsvnisit4l be oppose{
LLegi:lhee.ture. eell.l not be liable
to the impittat pf having .broken pro-
mises in the case of the Coin;;. of It'ela;l4- rneY will n 9
loneer have the perfidy of that meaaere evhiepe!-ed In their
.earb (hear, bear)—that the
.gcod faith of Blimeters -hes.
'been piedeed only to be violated.—(Hear, hear.) Bat
.need not argee further on the no danger of further
of
further polatical power to :the Catholics, for the settee
com-
mon interest alone eaettatee the present measure of
concession. The next point dwelt upon by
some Honourable Members, and urged s.ine of the
anti-Catholic petitions that have been presented deireseene
Session. The point is, that as the Members of flue House
have taken an oath, or made a declaration, that the Roman
Catholic religion was 61,.elat_rous, they will be guilty of a

fers present securities to prospective dangers.—(Cheers.)—a
The lion. Member for Lyme-Regis, who addressed the
House last night, made a speech which seemed to support
our views, but which was really decidedly in favour of his
Majesty's Government ; and so perhaps we shall hear
many other speeches equally difficult to comprehend. But
I return to the Right Hon Gentleman, who told us to
judge what were his opinions by the course he had pur-
sued. In 1825 he offered to resign, because there was a
Bill passing through this House for the relief of the Ca-
tholics ; but finding that his resignation would have dis-
solved the Administration, to which he was reluctant, he
agreed, on the solicitation of Lord Liverpool, to remain
in office. In 1627 there was a majority of four in this
House against the Catholic Claims, and the Right Hon.
Gentleman thought himself justified by that majority in
remaining still longer, though I believe he will find that
many Ministers have gone out of office wide a much larger
majority to support them. Why then does he bring fiir-
ward these measures now? What is the change in the state
of Ireland which has converted the Right Hon. Gentle-
man ? From about the first time to which I new refer, it
became apparent thst the state of the elective franchise in
Ireland was such as must overbalance and render fruitless
all attempts to settle that country ; and the House may see
by a violent speech lately made by the leader of the Catholic
Association, and by the equally violent articles published by
the Catholic press of Ireland on this subject, that unless
the Bill before us be deprived of this accompaniment, the
Catholics will not be satisfied. Mr. O'Connell expressly
says—" I shall consider the measure of Catholic Emanci-
pation incomplete until that Bill is repealed."—(Cheers.)—
shall take leave, with reference to this very injurious
me.a.oire, to refer to a letter from the Bishop of Meath to
the great O'Connell of that day, dated the 4th of the
Kalends of Slay, 1538. The Noble Lord then read the
letter, which spoke warmly in prai.e of the zeal and ortho-
doxy of Ireland. Where in Ireland, asked the letter,
has the Catholic faith been overturned? The Bishop
called out loudly for the suppression of heresy, because,
when the faith of Ireland perished, the See of Rome itself
would perish. But Ireland was a sacred island, and was
certified by Mother Church as one that would never desert
her. The Noble Lord, in conclusion, repeated that he was
convinced this Bill would have a most injurious tendency,
and he could not better express himself than in the words
of Lord Burleigh—that England could only be destroyed
by her own Parliament.
Mr. ROBERT GRANT—I confess I feel somewhat
reluctant in taking part in this debate, not because I am
averse to state my opinions, nor because I at all undervalue
the importance of the question nor further, though I
think the production of such documents as the Noble
Lord has read in the course of his speech, without giving
any opinion on their merits, was not qn:te consistent with
his profession to conduct the discussion in that spirit of
moderation and temperance which was recommended in
his Majesty's speech. I do regret that many things have
been slid with some degree of harshness in the course of
this debate. 1 allude to the sort of assumption of supe-
rior purity made by Hon. Gentlemen who pride them-
selves on being good Anti-Catholics. is impossible to
open one's lips against them, without subjecting one's self
to their accusations...(Cheers.)-1 beg to assure the
House, that nay whole feelings as to this question are go-
verned by the most profound sense of the magnitude of
the interests involved in it, With regard to the speech of
the lion. Member for Newark, I must say that I listened
to it with great attention, and I thought it one of distin-
guished ability, In one point of it I entirely agree, namely
that there is a strong feeling among a considerable portion
C{ the population against the proposed change, and that
that strong feeling is chietly sotertained by those who are
the most attached to the religion mid the religious esta-
blishment of the country. In fairness, however, while I
feel bound to make that admission, I must also concur with
those who have maintained that in fact the religion and
the religious establishments of the country are entirely un-
botched by the Bill. But I do protest against many of
the conclusions drawn ist the course of those speeches ;
a-nd I do hope the House wilt forgive me, if I even advance
to titd verge of topics which properly ehould base been
wholly extruded from dot discussion. If I sv,ese to judge of
the sense of the - 00°Pie by the numbers who have come
to the House with petitions in this case, because they feel
greatly averse to it; but there are greater numbers yet
behind, who have not asked to be heard : if there be a
vast number of petitions against the Catholic Claims, can
there be a doubt that if it were deemed advisable, the
whole adult population of Ireland would, after knowing
what measures are intended for their relief, rush forward
with one voice, and ask us to pass this ?—(Cheers.)
So tar as numbers are concerned, I feel myself nimble to
judge ; and I have therefore taken the laborious course of
going through the petitions, in order to ascertain the feel.
loge of the people, and I carefully listened to the debate
of last night ; and I beg leaee to say, that in the whole
number of petitions, and in every speech I have heard, 1
found nothing else but a substantial ackasinn of the evil
against which this measure is pointed, and nothiog like a
tangible alternative for the measure proposed. My lion.
Friend, the 31ember for Kent, declared last night, that
he would readily accede, if left to art fur himself, to the
admission of Roman Catholics to all place except seats in
Paelisenent ; but while he made this declaration lee admitted
Otat there were few of his friends who concurred with Lim 1
in m'''.er respects on this question who would approve of '
this alternative. ,And if the Hon. Baronet would have few
abettora of this plan on his own side of the House,without
aspiring to the merit of prophecy, I might undertake to
say that such An idea would not be likely to meet the
concurrence of fief? advocates on this side.—(Hear, hear.)
—lndeed, if I could believe that the leaders of the foreman
Catholic body would nansent to a compromise, which
would confer other actvantagea upon their body and yet ex-
clude them from Parliament, I should have the most de-
graded opinion of them. I should think that they de-
served the privations which they suffer, if they would con-
sent to be emaoeipated on terms which adMitted them to
every place and every bounty within the patronage of the
Crown, yet declared tbem unfit to be the Representatives
of the People.—(Cheers.)-eeTo me it appears that dile
specific proposition for the ezeedasion of Roman Catholics
from seats in Parliament, whilst yemm admit them to all
other offices of ixust and power, is frassgist with much
greater danger Our; if you throw Parliausent es well as
all other offices open to them ; for, as the propion
does not exclude them from being Members of the King's
Council, you may have a Protestant King surrounded by
Roman Catholic Councillors, who woods! not appear in
their places in this House to be responsible to Parliament
for their advice.—(Hear, hear.)—lt had- been eseeseentled
by some that there would be a small number, and by
other Hon. Members that there would be a peat num-
ber of Roman Catholic Members, in the event of the pass-
ing of this measure of concession. The effect of this
measure es to the number of Roman Catholics who
by it may Ise introduced is a subject into which
am unwilling to enter, for I own I have no appre-
hension of this lieu'e being deluged with Papal Repre-
sentativee. I have no ,car that they will exceed the re-
lative proportion which that' ought to bear to the wealth,
time respectability, and the property of the Roman Catholic
portion of the community. There will be no more an ex-
cess of Representatives from the Roman gotholic popu-
lation, than there is danger that water will rise glove the
spring from which it flows. I do mot think it desiriik,
as some Hon. ,Caentlemen do, that there chould be the
smallest possible neotmher of Roman Catholic Representa-
tives returned to this Hoose. I should rather see a large
and competent namber, proportionate to the Roman Ca-
tholic population, wealth, and panperty, in the came way
that I wish to see the number of Proteatant Representa-
tives proisortionate to the Prote.etant population, property,
and interest: of the empire. In the arst place, A t14711i. it
-lesirable, as a Brinciple of representation, that there silicealti
be such a proportion between the representative and gonsti,
tient body; secondly, I think that a great number of
man Catholic Members would serve to weaken the ten-
dency to concentration, el.nsald there be a design of their
acting together as a separate tiasa la this House ; thirdly,
and lastly, I think it desirable that there s4onld be a suffi-
cient number of Roman Catholics, in order to eeoder the
oleo:sure efficaciona, and productive of the benefit ,coastano-
plated from it, and that it might not, like so iii24l-y .0 tiler
measures of intended benefit for Ireland, appear good uposa
paper, but fail in communicating practical advantages.—
hear.)—The Hon. Member Sin' Newark (Mr. Sad-
ler) referred much of the misery that prevaijed in Ireland
to absenteeism ; and reeonueleaded the provision esf a re-
Namely for -tisat misekief as the means of correcting the
isting evils of society in that country. 710 Hon. Member
further recommended mild and humane measures gl,egis-
-I,tion, and the introduesi.on of the Poor-laws into Iretaas
--(Loud eriees of hear, Lear, I-sear, from the Anti-Catholic
Benches.)--Absenteeism was no :doubt an evil, and it
might be well to provide a remedy for ii; so might the
other mosses pointed out ley .the Horionraislo Member
he beneficial as specific measures for specific parpoeee of
improvement; but they were quite inakolicable as effica-
cious correctives of the present condition and ;tate of so-
ciety in Ireland. To suppose that the devising a coos for I
absenteeism would be a cure far the present miseries and
disorganization of society in Ireland, wnead be about as
reasonable as if a person were to enter Landoll in 1665,
and on beholding the miserable !peetacles of persons perLh-
ingduring the abcenee of -thew friends, while there was
not a relation near to dose their eyesa,should ask why
these evils and why this desolation prevailed throughout
the city?—.and should be told, in reply, that all these sof.

legislative crime if they tultnit its professors to the poli-
tical advantages of the Constitution. This point has been
urged in and out of doors ; among others, by a clergyman
of great respectability, who has published a pamphlet on it.
Now I beg leave, in reply to that argument, which has been
strongly made and circulated, to once for all protest against
an opinion that the Catholic question is a question between
the comparative purity or excellence of the Protestant and
Roman Catholic religions.—(Loud cries of " Hear.")—
For myself and those who have invariably advocated
concession to the Catholics, I must disclaim such a
notion, so preposterous that I would not have no-
ticed it bad it not been so repeatedly and zeal-
ously urged. With respect to the oath alluded to,
I took it, and that not lightly, nor as a matter of form. I
am prepared to show that it expressed my fixed and delibe-
rate opinions. I take it with a clear conscience, but (I
confess) always with wounded feelings, as I am sure is
the case with other Honourahle Membrs.—(Hear, hear.)
But when eminent and respectable men refer us to sacred
examples of the interdiction of all communication with
men of false and idolatrous religions, I may surely warn
thein against what seems to me a scarcely consistent ap-
plication of such precedents. Those cases of interdiction
excluded not only benefits given to the misbeliever, but be-
nefits received front him. Those therefore who recommend
on such grounds the exclusion of the Catholic from the Con-
stitution, should advise his exclusion in all other respects;
but Ido not find them scrupulous in receiving his assist-
ance, whatever their scruples in bestowing on him civil
privilege. They have no objection that England should
avail herself of the resources of that brave, hardy, and ge-
nerous population.—(Cheers.)—lreland contributes three
millions of revenue to this country. This is all right, for
Ireland is part of this kingdom.—(Hear.)—lreland yields
three millions more in her commercial intercourse with
Great Britain, which reaches the pocket of the British imams-
facturer. This, too, is as it should be ; it is right that all com-
mercial distinctions should be withdrawn. Ireland, again,
gives thirty-one thousand men to our military establish-
ments. This again is quite right ; for, surely Irishmen
are as true Britons as ourselyes.—(Laughter, and cries of
hear, hear.)—Thus far all is right and fair—for the Ca-
tholics to participate in your revenue, in your commerce,
in your military establishments; and to contribute, by
their labour and energies, to uphold your Protestant Con-
stitution : nor do you object that the ark of your Establish-
ment is sustained by unhallowed hands. But when they
ask you for some share, :some merely fractional portion, of
your political privileges, you treat them as wretched idola-
tors, and ignominiously reject their claims.—(Loud and
continued cheering, which lasted several minutes.) As soon
as the Hon. Gentleman became audible. after the applause
which followed upon the delivery of the foregoing passage,
he continued as follows :—Besides, if the removal of a test
excluding Catholics amounts to the formation of a national
union with their religious opinions, I want to know, if the
absence of any test excluding all other false or heretical re-
ligionists, nay infidels, amounts to a national union with
the belief or unbelief of all those persons. Yet this is the
fact, our test excludes Catholics, ; but all other religions,
however monstrous, and the Scoffer who has none,
" Omnigeniimque Deitin monstra, et latrator Anubis,"
find unrestricted entrance. The Hon. Member for Newark
said that religious belief is a necessary qualification for
office in this country. I beg to say that there is no test
which ascertains the religious sentiments of a candidate
for office or for Parliament, except that he is not a Ca-
tholic ; which of course a man is not who is of no religion
at all. I contend, contrary to the opinion of the Hon.
Member for Newark, that the leading principle of the
British Constitution is to communicate a participation
of its benefits to all those who live under it. Ex-
clusion is the exception, and not the principle, of
the British Constitution, nor of any good Government.
All common sense, and all the deductions of reason, esta-
blish the advantage which results from the great body of the
people of any country being united in one interest. When
they cordially combine in the attainment of the general
good—when the poor supply the labour—when the rich
supply the means, and when the wise supply the counsel—
the success of the great object in view is secured. The
Constitution of this country never, as has been asserted by
the Hon. Member for Newark, proceeded upon a principle
of exclusion by classes. It is to foreign shores, aye, even to
Asiatic shores, he must go to find that principle esta-
blished. The principle of our Constitution is equality of
civil rights, when no expediency exists for denying it.
Such is the spirit of our municipal law; and it is universally
admitted that, when the Divine Law does not oppose the
Laws of the State, it sanctions and confirms them. On
these grounds and with these sanction', the supporters of
this great and important measure may, I conceive, pro-.
perly vote for it ; humbly trusting that their sincere
and honest endeavours will receive the blessing of that Pro-
vidence which over-rulesall human affiirs. If lam right in
these premisesnallow me to conclude in the words of one of
the immortal speeches of Mr. Canning on t he present subject.
. Let us not stop short from any feeling of false pride ; nor
incur the responsibility of having taught a people to seek
for general peace at our hands, and of then forcing
them to retire back upon themselves. Let us rather in
the language of both Liturgies, exclaim stasum corda !
Let us raise our hearts to the Dispenser of all good ;
and with that elevation of soul let us proceed in that great
work which we have begun, and which, sooner or later,
will find its own way to the final consummation so de-
voutly to be wished by all good men."—(The Hon. Gen-
tleman concluded amid loud cheers from all parts of the
House.)
Mr. TRANT apologised to the House for trespassing
upon their attention, but he felt it his duty to say a few
words on the present most important question. For his
part, he could see nothing in the state of Ireland, nothing
in the state of England, nothing in the state of our relations
with the other Powers in the world (which appeared to be
of a most comfortable nature), that rendered it necessary
to have recourse to a measure which, he maintained, to be
of a most unconstitutional character. The principle of
the Constitution from the time of Charles the Second to
the present moment, had been to exclude the Roman Ca-
tholics from any share in legislative or political power.
Such was the principle, and he and those who with him
were opposed to the measures proposed by his Majesty's
Government, were not to be driven from the assertion of
that principle by any taunts of their adversaries. It was
argued by time supporters of the measure, that such was
the state of affairs in Ireland, that no other course could
be pursued with advantage or safety. He denied that that
was the case. Why had not his Majesty's present Govern-
ment imitated the firmness of Mr. Pitt, who, in a time of
danger similar:to that which it was said now existed, had on
his own responsibility applied measures to suppress it?
He was convinced, that in addition to their other mis-
chievous consequences, all propositions calculated to tran-
quillise and benefit Ireland would be greatly retarded if
not entirely frustrated by the measures now proposed; and
the result of which must of necessity be, that Ireland would
become actually and entirely a Catholic country. Nor
was the apprehension of such a state of things confined to
Ireland. He would ask the Right Hon. Secretary of State
if, under the proposed Bill, a Jesuit might not be Prime
Minieter of England ? Let hint answer that; and if he
answered it as he (Mr. Thant) knew lie must do, in the
affirmative, let the House consider what might by possi-
bility he the result. For himself, a great deal was passing
in his mind non the subject of a very painful nature.
Who cooled predict what might occur if there were at the
same time a Jesuit Prime Minister, and a Catholic fa-
vourite of the female sex?—(A laugh ?)—When he con-
sidered these and other circumstances, and when he consi-
dered that, as had been stated by the Right lion. the Co-
lonial Secretary, a very considerable proportion of the
standing army was composed of Irish Catholics, it was im-
Irossibte foe hint net to look forward to a constant increase
in the Catholic claims. In conclusion, the Hon. Gentle-
span read a passage from the inteeilnetion of a pamphlet
by the ;eke Lord Clare, intended to open the eyo of the
country to the danger nigh which it teas threatened by the
state of Ireland.
Mr. HORACE TWISS said, the steongeet way in
which I have lately heard the main argument on the other
aide stated, is in the form of the question, whether, since
the Catitti:iii Church is the avowed antagonist of our own,
it will be peudent in us to share our political power with
fix or seyenMillione of one atlesersariee ? Anil that question
i 3 sulked, es if 's the Protestants, liepmg two-this.de of
the whole British empire, were streightsvey proceeding to
invest the Catholics, who form the rePaining third, with
the immediate possession of some given proportion of the
Legislature, and of all the offices and honours of the State.
That is a very ingenious, but is it a fair way of represent-
Ingo thin tra.U.;f:: to the people? Those who talk that lan-
guage isisOsV Vely-saiei, C 4 if they do not, they have no
business to talk on suchsnlijeces at zfi, tlllt it is not the
possession of office—that it is not the pPSßeesioet pf (ien::,a-
ment which this Bill proposes to bestow, but onlythe ce-
isticte to hold office, and the capacity to sit in Parliateeet,
Th'e!distinctiet. ie terely a broad one, between giving to
ens man an actual benent, aral giving Mtn the mere leave
io recek'ye that'benefit Vibe can get it ; anti elief is just the
distinction leetseen the Bill itself and your version of it.
But the Counc:is of the Icing bAUF oac:e.thydvtin'tpen to
the Catholics, how, it is asked, will you protect his Ma-
jesty against their evil advice? Sir, the access of Popish
servants to time King was provided against by the same
Statute of Charles 11. which excluded Papists from Par-
liament, and which it is one of the objects of this Bill to
remodel.' s Is-Cow if this facility of approach to the
much danger to the
King be realtyniendeti

Constitution, how has it happened that the wisdom I And, with perpetual inroads, to alarm,
of our Protestant Legislature, which has so long kept I Though inaccessible, his•fatal throne,
up the bar erected by the Statute against the machine- I Which, if not victory, is yet revenge."
toms of any Catholic in Parliament, should have ex- In that position it is not for the safety, it is not for the
punged from the Statute, as in the last reign it did ' dignity of the British Crown, that the people of one of these
expunge, the prohibition that kept away Catholic ser- kingdoms should remain—and from that position this mea-
vents from the King ? In the present state of your law, • sure displaces them. But what fiwther plea it is asked,
which you deem se satisfactory and so secure, the Papist, have Ministers for relaxation now than they had in any
whom in his open responsible character you reject and former year? It might be a sufficient justification to refer
dread, is at liberty to frequent the very closet of the King, to the Clare Election ; but there is another, still more un-
in a private irresponsible capacity.—(Hear.)—But when answerable—the continued repetition of disappointment
the Catholics shall once be admissible to be Peers, a King, i from the opposite policy. If at the commencement of the
if he be of a Popish way of thinking, may increase their i five-and-thirty years which have elapsed since Lord Fitz-
number, till they amount to a majority of the other House william was sent to Ireland by Mr. Pitt, it could have
of Parliament. I will not go so far in imitation of those been foreseen that so great a lapse of time, instead of
whom lam opposing, as to draw, like the Hon. Member bringing with it any cure, any alteration, would only leave
for Newark, distinction between the moral and the legal the condition of Ireland where it now stands, is there any
title of the Sovereign, or to inquire what' became of the man among those loudest against concession who will say
one King who pursued a Popish policy against the feeling that, with that knowledge before him, he would have coun-
of his Protestant subjects. There is no necessity for enter- selled his Sovereign to begin this hopeless series of disasters?
ing into these distinctions, because the hypothesis that the (Hear.) And if not, can there be any inconsistency now
King may be of a Popish way of thinking is, on the prin- in finally relinquishing so unsuccessful an experiment ?
ciples of the Anti-Catholics themselves, an impossible one. 1 ask my opponents themselves, in the present state of
They hold, and very justly, that so long as the Coronation public feeling in England, and of enthusiastic agitation
Oath subsists, which is and must remain the security of throughout Ireland—after the union of all parties in the
the Crown, the Sovereign who takes that test must be a Government—after the recommendation from the Throne
Protestant and nothing else; and then they build an argu- —after the universal diffusion of the belief, that the mea-
ment on the supposition that such a Sovereign may, never • sure, so supported, was sure of ultimate accomplishment,
timeless, be a Catholic. Why, Sir, if he may, then so may whether they can form a conception of the dangers which
the Peers and the Members of Parliament who take the would follow, if they could now prevail on Parliament to
existing oaths be Catholics; and then to what value do turn round upon the Crown, by which those hopes had
you reduce those existing oaths, on which alone you rely been raised, and refuse the grace recommended ? My own
at this hour for the exclusion of any Catholic at all.— opinions having always been in favour of concession ; the
(Hear.) That some Catholics will find their way, not question whether others were at liberty to change is one
only into the House of Peers, but still more into this House of no personal interest to me; but I solemnly declare, that
of Parliament, no men of course will deny; indeed, that if, up to the moment when I heard his Majesty's speech
is one of the direct objects of this Bill. But if the opinions read, I had been as jealous of concession as I always was
of those who are best acquainted with Irish affairs may be desirous of it--if I had been as strenuous and as able an
taken, the representatives, even from Ireland, after the al- opponent of it as the Hon. Member for Kent or for Nor-
teration in the franchise, will be very few—will be to be wich, I should have felt that from that moment my duty
counted, not in tens, but in mere units; for, on the then of resistance was over ; and that my course must no
improved order of electors, the:Protestant landlord will pro- longer to be to consider what strength might have been
bably have that influence, which, on the present very mustered, if Government had continued to disregard the
' humble class of voters, is exercised but by the Priest. sullen warnings of the time ; but what, in the present
The Hon. Member for Newark is of opinion that the analo- crisis, when hope and passion have been kindled to their
gies of the Constitution require us to exclude the Catholics height, will be the way to quirt the country, and, if pos-
-that as we have a pecuniary, so we ought to maintain a bible, to satisfy it, and, at all events, to save it.—(Hear.)
religious qualification. Sir, there is this difference—that Lord MOUNTCHARLES cordially thanked the Go-
the pecuniary qualification may be obtained by any man vernment for bringing forward the present measure ; but
through his own honest industry ; but the religious quali- although he did not mean to deny that great errors had
tication can he obtained by the follower of the excluded faith been committed at elections, he thought it an act of great
only through a crime against his Creator. Without that injustice at once to take away from thousands and hundreds
crime, to qualify is impossible. Every man in that situa- of thousands of individuals, the rights which they had so
tion is not only unqualified, but disqualified ; and though long possessed. Much, however, ought to be sacrificed to
the principle of the Constitution may consistently recognize the present measure, which could be carried only by mu-
the pecuniary requisition, which is only a qualification, it tual concessions. He believed the Right Hon. Secretary
will not, therefore, sanction the religious requisition, which might console himself for the bitterness of invective heaped
amounts to a disqualification.—(Hear, hear.)—The Con- upon him, in the consciousness of the highest reward which
stitutiun, says the Hon. Member, demands a moral as well a British Statesman could receive—the thanks of a grateful
AS a pecuniary qualification—that he whom it admits be a and long-suffering people.
Christian. It does no such thing—there is its defect. He Lord PALMERSTOIsf wished to advert to the re-
may be a Pagan, or a Deist, or an Athiest—any thing, so marks made by an Hon. Member below him, and by an
he be not a Catholic. The Constitution has not said that Hon. Baronet opposite, that the repeal of the Catholic
Christianity shall be indispensible for admission into Par- disabilities was at variance with the views and intentions of
liament ; but if it had said so, does the Hon. Gentle- those who produced the Revolution of 1688. He, on the
man mean to state that Catholicism is not Christianity ? contrary, would assert, that those great men, in 1688,
It if he not, then for the first thirteen centuries after Christ rescued themselves and their posterity from religious into-
Christianity had no existence in Christendom.—( Hear.) lerance and political tyranny, and that the present oppo-
I trust that the debates in this House are beginning to un- nents of the measure were supporters of that very reli-
deceive the people ; to make them understand that exclu- gious intolerance which their ancestors successively re-
sions and tests are no part of our Constitution, as it was sisted, and were withholding from their fellow-subjects
wrought by its founders; that its basis, its essence, is the the blessings of that Constitution which they este-
common law of the land, which proclaims the competency !dished with se much courage. He saw, in the pre-
of every natural born subject to all benefits whatsoever. sent opposition, that religion was made the watch-
Indeed it can never he too widely proclaimed, that the word of party strife, and that the words of salvation
great protecting principle of exclusion—the work which and peace were perverted to purposes of warfare.—We
the Hon. .Member for Newark, and other good Protestants, have beard much reference made to King William and the
delight to describe as the foundation of our glorious settle- Revolution of 1688, but the fabric on which King William
Inca—is the work not of King William, as people are apt intended to rear the Protestant Constitution was the ab-
to imagine, nor of the statesmen of an earlier time, but dis- sence of all persecution for religious tenets and belief. If
tinctly and specifically of Dr. Oates. It may be to Kings and that had not been his object, and the real nature of the
to Parliaments that we are obliged for the mere rights and system on which the Revolution was founded, instead of
liberties we enjoy ; but for that main characteristi", that best commemorating his arrival in this country for the preserv-
jewel of our Constitution, the exclusion of our fellow-sub- ation of its liberties, we would have strong cause to curse
jects, for that we are iodebted to the labours of Dr. Oates. the day on which he set his footsteps on our shores. But
My Hon. Friend, the Member for Corfe Castle, has not King William came not to promote the cause of persecu-
explained sufficiently to snake me understand why the par- tion and intolerance, but to protect our civil and religious
ticular period of 1688 should be pressed, by Ultra-Pro.. liberties. But what is the state in which Ireland is now
testants, as the only point of reference in these discussions. found by the manner in which it has, unfortunately been
The Revolution saved these kingdoms : be it so; but did too long governed? We have a kind of civil war raging
it first impart the Protestant character to our Constitution? throughout the country ; we have been driving the
Was King William the first Protestant Sovereign of these most noble and generous natures to a state of de-
reahns ? Why, Sir, the Constitution was just as Protest- gradation and discontent ; we have been paralysing every
ant under Queen Elizabeth as it was under the House of expedient that has beeneesorted to for tie purpose of raising
Orange itself; and it was only by his defection from this their character ;we have been throwing every obstacle in
indispensable Protestant creed that King James ever for- the way of their improvement, and we have been too long
felted his Crown. If the problem were to steer the na- acting on a system with respect to the Roman Catholic
tion through same conflict between liberty and arbitrary population, which, if much longer persevered in, must
power, the Revolution might well be assumed as our work the destruction of the Empire.—(Hear.)—But it
pole-star ;if we wanted, in some civil war, an example was said that the Roman Catholics entertained opinions
how to crush the strength of our adversaries, the Re- which must interfere with their duties as loyal subjects,—
volution might well be cited as our precedent. But and that, if admitted to political power, they would sap
out of the whole history of our Protestant Constitu- and undermine the foundation of the Constitution, and in-
tien, from the reign of Elizabeth to the repeal of the troeluce Popery and despotism. This, however, the Cs-
Penal Statutes under Geo. 111.—out of that entire history, tholics solemnly deny. They say that there is nothing in
to choose the agitated period when a Monarch had just their tenets or their principles that could in .u..e them to
been dethroned, and when a bloody struggle for his restore- attempt to upset the fabric of the Constitution, or to intro-
tion in that part of his realm which was, and is, most espe- duce despotism, even if they should have it in their power,
cially Catholic, precluded all calmness of deliberation, which they will not. But supposing they did entertain
and made even the extretnes of illegality warrantable ; views hostile to the Constitutis a and the civil and roil-
to select such a period of compulsory legislation, as the gious liberties of the country, it has been properly asked
pattern xra of our Church and State, for the purpose how they could carry their intentions into effect? and to
of irrevocably binding a peaceful posterity, is a bold- this no answer less been given. I will suppose that, eon-
ness which, even by its frequent repetition, has not yet wary to all probability—l will not say impossibility—that
ceased to be astounding. It is neither more nor less than the Catholic leaders should entertain so wicked and absurd
to draw civil precedent from martial law.—(Hear.)—Sir, a project as that of an attempt to destroy the Consti-
when eLord Treasurer Middlesex had been found guilty by tution in Church and State, and that for that pur-
his peers, on impeachment for certain corruptions, and pose they could unite the whole body of the Roman
sentenced by them that be should never sit in Parliament Catholics in one common assent to their schemes, they
more, Lord Clarendon, no vulgar judge of British Law would have first to gain the assent of a Constitutional
and the Constitution, questioned that sentence, as being, King, and next that of a Constitutional Cabinet; and
says he, " A clause of such a nature, as was never before even supposing they succeeded so far, what could any
found in any judgment of Parliament, and iu truth not to Ministry effect that could lend itself to such projects?—
be inflicted upon any Peer but by attainder." That is, The foundation of such an Administration must be weak-
unless there not only have been a crime committed, but ness, and it is impossible that they could for a moment—
unless that crime be of magnitude sufficient to warrant the after announcing such a project, or after a reasonable sus-
extremity of attainder, a sentence of incapacity to sit in picion once entertained that they meditated such a scheme,
Parliament is an unconstitutional sentence upon an hll- they could not maintain themselves in their situation. All
victual Peer. Upon an individual Peer ! Why here is a Protestants, both in the Houses of Parliament and among
sentence upon an entire order—upon an entire nation ! the public in general, would flee from their standard, and
The well known solecism in constitutional policy which the result must be that they would be spurned from their
drew down the indignant ridicule of Mr. Burke was the places with discomfiture, ignominy, and disgrace. The
preferring of a bill of indictment against a whole people ; bare statement of the proposition, that the Constitution of
but you go infinitely further : you visit a whole nation this country could be upset by such means, forms an an-
with a bill of attainder. But if Ireland is no longer in a saver to itself. The Hon. Member for Kent said the other '
state of war to warrant a rigour beyond the Constitution, night, that he did not find fault with the conduct of the
is she in such a state of tranquillity as to indicate that Catholics, but that his objection was to their religious
the system of rigour has the merit of working well? creed and tenets. The Hon. Member could not mean by
Good God ! what spectacle is it which, for the sake of that that there was any real danger to be apprehended
the Constitution, the lovers of social order are so anxious from the mere abstract belief in transubstantiation, or any
to perpetuate in Ireland ? The whole of her great papilla- other dogma. What he must have meant was, that there
tion in a state of ceaseless excitement—confidence and was something in the religious doctrines and opinions of
even commerce suspended—the kindly feeling between the the Roman Catholics inconsistent with A cordial support of
higher and lower classes intercepted in its current—tire the Protestant Constitution. But, in the first place, the
natural influence of the oldest families, in the heart of Roman Catholics utterly deny this; and even if they were
their domains, in the centre of their clans, paralyzed and insincere in that denial, and if there was any thing in
overthrown—massacre and burning, and banding together their religious dogmas and notions inconsistent with a cor-
-enmity transmitted from father to son, and the blight of dial support of the Protestant Constitution, I say that it
suspicion and fear ! These are not fictions nor exaggera- will be totally out of their power to do any injury to that
tions ; they are facts, recorded in the Statutes on this Constitution, If the question, Sir, were whether we
table. When Gentlemen speak with such timid scrupu- should or should not have Catholics, then I would
lousness about the danger of the slightest infringement of the answer that it would be better that we should
Constitution, let me ask what they think of such Statutes have no Catholics, but that the whole population
as these?—whether they think either the letter or the of the country, should be Protestants. But that is
spirit of the Constitution is much preserved by the Act, for not the question, for there the Catholics are—five or six
example, which we have been under the necessity of pass- millions—scattered over the country, from one extremity to
ing in this very Session, for the suppression of popular another; and the only question is, 'what we are to do with
meetings? Or will they bear to have it said that they are them since they are there—whether we are to make them
ready enoughp to,
.ase a breach in the Constitution for friends by concession, or enemies by exclusion?—(Hear,
purposes cif" and pen:,shmermt, and that it hear.)—I thinly the fissure! coarse is the best to pursue.
is only egeinet conciliation and kind/wee that they Would lam Opposing that the Catholics would imagine that they
keep it perpetually barred ?—(Cries of Hear, hear.") had one common interest in undermining the foundations
Sir, the apprehensions of danger from the admission of of the Constitution, and would make the attempt to do so;
Catholics into the pale of the Constitution were at no time still supposing the basis on which the opponents of conces-
very reasonable; but what shall We say to them at the sion rest, I argue even on the supposition that this was the
present day, when, for the very want of that power which true basis, that the only sound and good policy is concession.
the Catholics might gain by admission, they enjoy another I presume the Hon. Baronet himself does not sanction the
power of ten times its magnitude and mischief by exclu- imputation on the Catholics, that it is one of the tenets of
sion ? not now cf their legal rights—their right their religion that no faith is to be kept with heretics ; but
to servo on jirrieS, in the 'magistracy; in the army and navy his objection to them is, that they hold a divided allegiance,
speak not of the momentous iranchtse of retnrning re- yid that they may be induced, by foreign influence, to be-
presentatives to Parliament; but I see that they have tray their duties 44 British subjects, and to prove traitors
physically outgrown your early laws—that amid the dark- to their Sovereign. This, too, the Roman Catholics utterly
ness which sun ounds them on every other point, they deny; and they say that there is no test that can be de-
have acquired a singular knowledge of their own strength vises', no oath that can be prescribed to them as a security
—that knowledge which, above all others, is, emphati- for their allegiance to their Sovereign—if any such security
eally,pooesr. rents at their numbers—at the talents and could be deemed at all necessary or expedient—that they
eurprising.enersiee 4z)i• 1:-1'.;(ler2--at their hold upon would not he ready to take and subscribe to with all their
public, even upon Protestant
•Opinion---delta shim f:',lnif3 hearts. But it may be said that oaths are words, and that
they command, at the insecurity they spread,at the parki= words are lit air. Why, then, if you are not satisfied with
doxical contrast between the disorders they can commit oaths amid Wordi, look at their actions, and let them speak
and the order they can preserve—think of all these elements for them. -If the Rennin Catholics could be induced by
-of hiLeitier, eVen utra, fermenting for your disquiet, and foreign influence, or 'any other Consideration, te'peoyo traitein
thenyoue lti,on,:e4raSion:hoerthen the time is not gone by for talking to their country and their Sovereign, in what situations would
of the Catholics es a'bOYVhnse pever-is fa he .treated by they have the best opportunities of carrying their intentions
end ecliernes into elect? In the military service of the
stifled. by your refusal? - Their Position
is best described by the fallen angel, when he exclaims-- country, both in the Army and the Navy. But into time na-
tional military service, ben' by sea and land, they are al-
On thisready by law admitted—not by any old law so far back as
Our power sufficient to disturb his Heaven, the reign of Charles 11., but by a late Act, which was not
Tide nothing ; ------d We e
by are
proof at worst
we
feel

•

opposed even by those who were the readiest to proclaim
this charge against the Catholics. On what ground, then,
have we trusted the Catholic in the centre of our garrisons
and our fleets?—(Hear, hear.)—He may by law command
our fleets and our armies in battle, when a single act
done, or a single act omitted to be done, might prove most
disastrous, perhaps fatal, to the country. Why has the
Catholic been admitted to such situations? For what
other reason but that we had confidence in his fidelity, and
he may say that the confidence has not been misplaced.—
(Hear.)--But when the question is about the Catholic
having a scat in the Legislature, where he can only be one
of a few, can it be reasonably contended that his faith can-
not be trusted ?—(Hear, hear.)--What can be the mean-
ing of that reasoning and that conduct which rests on the
supposition that the Catholic, who, notwithstanding his
alleged divided allegiance, may be saNy entrusted with the
command of our fleets and armies, and the most important
' charge of leading them to battle, cannot with safety be per-
mated to vote in a Committee of Supply ?—(llear, hear.)
In this respect our ancestors were wiser than we have been
They hated and feared the Catholics, and that with some
reason. We hate and fear the Catholics without any rea-
son at all. They wished to destroy the Roman Catholic
religion, and set about it in good earnest. They just did not
go quite so far as to say that a Roman Catholic had a
wolf's head, and might be put to death wherever
he was found; but they did drive him from civilized
society like a wild beast, and forced him to retire to his
wild haunts an.l his secret coverts. But we—while we
subject him to disabilities and exclusions amply sufficient to
excite discontent and rancorous feelings, allow him at the
same time to growl about the streets, and entrust him
with the guardianship of our lives and fortunes, and only
shut against him the portals of this House and the other
House of Parliament. If the faith of the Roman Catholic
cannot be depended on, then we have gone a great deal too
far ; and if it may be depended on, then we have stopped
short too soon.—(Hear, bear,)—But then it may be said,
and has been said, that the Roman Catholics cannot be
safely trusted with political power. What is it that con-
stitutes political power ? Is it the mere admission into the
Legislature and offices of State ? Wealth and intelligence
will give political power much more effectually. These
will always give political influence all over the world,
whether in the east or the west, the south or the north.
But wealth, and even honours, you have already given
them, and intelligence you have been forcing on them
with the utmost zeal, and their numbers have been
remarkably increased; and now, when they have become
so much more numerous, more intelligent and civilized,
and so much more wealthy than hey ever were before, we
are to go on descanting whether we should admit them to
any share of political power—(Cheers,)—and whether we
ought not to exclude them from this and the other House
of Parliament ?—(Cheers ?)—Have those men of talents
no political power who can sway five or six millions of
the people of the United Kingdom to their will.—(Hear.)
_ _ _

—Have they not political power who hold the pas-
sions of such multitudes in a leash, and can let them loose
how, and when, and to what purpose they please.—
(Hear, hear.)—Have they not political power who carry
peace or war in the folds of their garments ?—(Hear.)—lf
such persons had not political power, there was no meaning
in words, and no danger in arms. This was a power
which could only be destroyed by the extermination of the
Catholics. But that is impossible; and therefore I call
on those who are most apprehensive of that power to con-
cur in the adoption of a measure which, as the political
power of the Catholics cannot be destroyed, will convert it
from an instrument of danger to the State into a source of
health, etiength, and prosperity. By the last returns in
1821, it appears that the population of England was four-
teen millions, and that of Ireland seven millions. From
the population of fourteen millions, the revenue was fifteen
millions, from the seven millions only five millions. What
is the reason of this difference? Is it owing to the barren-
ness of the soil, or to the want of intelligence and industry
in the people? It is well known that the soil is remark-
ably
fertile, that the climate is good, and that the people
are intelligent, and would be industrious if they had due
encouragement. What, then, can be the reason of the
difference? I shall be told that it is owing to the want of
capital, and the consequent want of employment for the
people. But why has not British capital found its way to I
Ireland ?—that capital and enterprise which finds its way
to all the rest of the world, while it cannot be attracted to
that island, forming part of the United Kingdom, which is
situate, as it were, within a stone's throw of Great Britain !
British capital has found its way over the Andes, and even
to the Antipodes; and there is baldly any adventure,- how-
ever hazardous, hopeless, and desperate, in which it has not
been invested. But it is driven from Ireland by the un-
settled condition of the country, the consequence of the dis-
sensions and divisions arising from these political exclusions.
The wand of a potent enchanter has been drawn round
Ireland, and drives back capital and industry from the pro-
hibitory circle. But let us break the enchanter's spell, and
suffer capital, and industry, and peace, at last, to visit the
shores of Ireland ; and, for the put pose of effectuating that t
great national object, there is no plan that can be adopted so
well calculated to be attended with success as Catholic
Emancipation. I wish that those who oppose concession
would go to the South of Ireland, and see with their own
eyes the condition of the people, and the discontent and
rankling passions which prevail among them on account of
these exclusions, and witness the state of anarchy and dis-
order which results from the same cause. I wish they could
witness in what a fierce, political, and partial manner even
the laws are administered. And if a view of the condition
of the South of Ireland failed to convince them, then I wish
they would visit the North of Ireland among the Protes-
tants, and there see how noble natures are corrupted by the
possession of undue and exclusive powers and privileges.--
To put an end to this state of things, there is no other
mode than that of settling the Catholic question in the
way of reasonable concession. In any other way the safety
of the Constitution can only be ensured by the sword.
There are three modes which have been suggested for put-
ting an end to this state of things; to check absenteeism----
to introduce the Parliament into Ireland—and to engage
in a civil war. But if you wish to check absentecienn
you must first make Ireland inhabitable. Do that by
putting an end to the distractions of the country, and the
absentees will return. As to the introduction of the
Poor Laws into Ireland,l should say that it is a most
miserable substitute for concession. It has been said that
the people of Ireland are improvident—and is the cstab-
lishment of the Poor Laws in that country likely to be an
available remedy for that improvidence ? It has been
said that much of the misery of Ireland has arisen from
the over population of the country ; and is the intro-
duction of the Poor Laws likely to form a check on po-
pulation ? We have seen how the Poor Laws have
been supposed to operate where they have been established ;
we have had Committees sitting year after year in order
to ascertain if, by any possible means, England could
be relieved from the curse of the Poor Laws ; and can
it he imagined that it would add to the prosperity
and tranquillity of Ireland to transfer the Poor Laws
to that country? Then comes the remedy of civil war,
which, though not proposed in terms, is the only inference
that can he drawn by any rational man from the words of
many of those who talk of the means by which Ireland is
to be kept quiet. They say, in effect—war we must beyei
sooner or later, and now, as we are better prepared for it
than we may afterwards be, we will fight it out. But it
ought to lie recollected, that blßod has been already shed
in Ireland—(hear, hear)—and many more seized, and ,j
brought to trial and punishment. These means were suc-
cessful in repressing the disorders of the country for the
moment, hut did they go to the sources and causes of the
evil ? Or did they not rather leave the poison rankling
more deeply in the heart ?—(Hear, hear.)—l have said
before, and I repeat, that there will be no danger whatever I
from concession to the Catholics, even if they should eel-
tettain mischievous designs, anti could pseyail on a weak i
and unprincipled Administration to support them ; for
whets every -1-eortl is spoken here at night flies
on the wings of the wind next morning over all parts
of the country, it is utterly impossible that any such
Administration could stand, for the attempt would
raise a storm in which they must be overwhelmed.
There are some Gentlemen who have ever lived in sect,-
city under the protection and shield of the law, vi o'N
slumbers have never been broken be the flashing of angry
owords—whose hat•ve:49 have never beep trodden ender
foot by the contests of armed mere who may talk of civil
war as a species of pastime, and as a sort of sport for
children—" They jest at scars who never felt a wound."
But there are Gentlemen amongst us who have not been
PO fortunate—who have seen men starving before them--
who have beard with our ears, and seen with our eyes, all
the miseries of civil war, and know, by experience, the
barbarism and barbarity it engenders; that such talk of
civil war as a subject:of mirth, us anything but the greatest
of national calamities, fills me with astonishment.---'
(Cheers.)—lf we are so full and overflowing with pent-up •
pugnaciousness—if the land is bursting with the accumu-
lated ferociousness of fourteen years' general peace, let us
waste it against every country of the world, end not turn
it,_ in a suicidal theory, against ourselves.—(Loud cheep.)
L-;-"Onnas Notes piitare, sad privipue yitiGtr4 populig
helium CiVile avertere, deheinus." Sir, I will grant that
We are successful. 1 will grant that the war in Ireland
shall be signally and completely prosperous. I will grant ,
that resistance will be soon extinguished in the blood of
the people. I will grant that the crimson banner of Eng- ,
land shall wave triumphantly amidst the ruins of smoking
villages and over the ashes of destroyed towns, and float