The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-08 00:00:00

IMPRISONAIENT FOR DEBT.

Lord CAMPBELL presented petitions from different
parts of Gloucestershire, complaining of the law pre-
venting imprisonment fur debt under 201., and praying
for its repeal. The Noble and Learned Lord readily
presented the petition, but could nut consent to its prayer.
Lord COTTENHAM presented a petition from the
debtors of Lancashire, praying for the repeal of the im-
prisonment for debt.
Lord DENMAN presented a petition from 400 per-
sons, praying that some course should be adopted for
putting an end to the necessity of taking certain oaths
in cases of bankruptcy, and other canes, in order to ob
tain their release ; and as an instance of the effect of the
present law, they stated that one individual, whom they
knew to be an honourable man, was entirely prevented
from obtaining his discharge, and almost reduced to
stcrvation, iri consequence of his religious scruples to
take the oaths required. He trusted the subject would
receive the consideration of his Noble Friend on the
Woolsack.

IRISH CONSTABULARY.

The Marquis of NORMANBY then rose, pursuant.
to notice, to move for returns of all the appointments as
head constable in the Irish constabulary, from the Ist
of May, 1838, to the present time ; distinguishing
whether made upon the recommendation of the
Inspector-General or not, and also 'a similar return of
all the promotions from head-constable to the higher
grades, in the same form, also distinguishing whether
made upon the recommendation of the Inspector-
General. When this subject was before the House on
a former occasion, the Noble Duke asked what had
become of the alleged understanding. The Noble
Duke asserted that none had ever existed ;
but, if there ever was any, he (the Marquis
of Normanby) was the first to break through it.
Now had this been the case be should not have felt jus-
tified in again calling their Lordships' attention to the
subject ; but he could not help thinking that the Noble
Duke must have been misinformed by some person or
other. or he would not have ventured to make such a
statement. What were the facts of the case? Why, the
constabulary force was dividt d into non-commissioned
and commissioned officers. The first were taken from
the peasantry and the last from the gentry. The only
appointments which were invested in theLord-Lieutenant
were those appointments of officers, who bore a resem-
blance to Ensigns in the army. Now when he was in
office he told Colonel Macgregor that he would not
strictly exercise this .privilege, but whenever Colonel
Macgregor wishel to promote any deserving private, he
should be glad to take that gallant gentleman's recom-
mendation. With respect to all the appointments re-
lating to high constablos, they, according to an under-
standing, rested entirely with Mr. Macgregor. The
Noble Duke must therefore be misinformed, or
he could not have made the statement to which
he had alluded. He still felt strongly that Mr.
Brownrigg had been harshly treated, inasmuch as
his recommendation had been slighted, while, on two
former occasions, the recommendation of the Inspector-
General had been adopted by the Lord-Lieutenant. He
had had no communication with Col. Macgregor or Mr.
Brownrigg, but he believed, from information he had re-
ceived, that the recommendation was is jested by the ad
vice of the late Lord-Lieutenant, Earl de Grey, which
was afterwards acted upon by Sir James Graham. For
his part ho thought it highly improper of the Noble
Earl to give such a recommendation, and no less im-
proper for Sir James Graham to agree to it. The result
of the late debate on this subj. ct had produced a bad im-
pression in Ireland, for, at the last assizes for the County
of Armagh, a dinner was given by the High Sheriff to
the Grand Jury, at which there were many guests be-
sides three of the constabulary force. The usual toast'
to the " glorious, pious, and immortal memory" was
given and drunk by one of these constabulary
officers standing up in his uniform, and chter
ing it most lustily—notwithstanding it was strictly
pr..hibited by Colonel Macgregiir and Colonel
Shaw Kennedy. This was the result of a debate
which had taken place in that House, and he felt
that the determination of the Government not to abide
by the former understanding was likely to prove most
mischievous. But he might be told that the future
measures of the Government would create a different
feeling in Ireland. Whenever those measures came up,
he should give them his most anxious and zealous sup-
port, no matter from what quarter they might emanate;
but he did not think they would have a tendency to alter

the present state of things. The fact was, the system
and principle of the Governmint was rttdit;ally wrung.
Their present Chief Secretary was a stranger to Ire-
land, and most of their other officers of State were par-
.

tisane of the ascendancy principle. It was this that
they would find the cause of the present discontent in
Ireland. He did not mean to find fault with any
portions of the conduct of Mr. Sergeant Jackson, but it
was a remarkable circumstance that Mr. Sergeant Jack-
son had brought into the House of Commons a Bill for
the extinction of Maynooth. Happily a vacancy had
been found on the bench, or he bf-lieved that the Presi-

dent of the Board of Trade would not have been a soli-

Lary instance of resignations to the present Govern-
ment. He did not wish to make any complaint of the
conduct of Mr. Sergeant Jackson since his elevation to
the bench, but he believed it would have been

a very awkward circumstance for him had he
remained a Member of the other House of Le-

gislaturei if he had come with a Bill in one pocket
for the extinction of Maynootb, and the Government
Bill in the other for its support. By the census of 1841
it was ascertained that there ware only 28,000 persons
in all Ireland who were net natives of the country ; and
it was believed by competent authorities that at least
one-half of that number were children born of Irish
parents, who had been only temporarily absent from the
country. Now it was well known that there were ge-
nerally not less than 60,000 individuals, natives and sub-
jects of the British empire resident at Paris. With the
character of Lord Heytesbury it was not his inten ion to
interfere ; but he might say, with all his knowledge of
strange countries, be knew, like most Englishmen, very
little of Ireland. He begged, therefore, to move for a
return of all the appointments which had been made in
the constabulary force of Ireland since the Ist of May,
1838, distinguishing those which had been made with
the knowledge of the Inspecter•General, and those which
were not.

Lord STANLEY said that the Noble Marquis had
entered into much discursive statement upon this ques-
tion, with a view to show that her Majesty's Government
had made the appointments in Ireland from party or
personal motive. Now he would venture to assert that,
in all the appointments which had been made, a greater
liberality of policy, a greater freedom from theological
or political bias, had never teen shown by any Govern-
ment. With the Noble Marquis's observations, or rather
style of observations, he had much fault to find, but to
the return he had no 'objection, with one exception—
that vviv, that the date of the report should be from the
Ist of May, 1836, instead of the Ist of May, 1838, fur
he thought it but fair-that the proceedings of both Go-
vernments should be compared with each other. The
Noble Marquis lost, in the year 1838, some two months
previous to the period at which he had fixed this return,
the services of Colonel Shaw Kennedy, mainly on the

ground that he did not attend to that officer's recommen
dations in the filling up of the vacant offices. The:Act re
using the former Constabulary Act was introduced in
1836, and the number of the constabulary was then in-
Creased from 5,000 to 8,000. On introducirg the Bill into
the lower House, the main reason for removing the
patronage from the hands of the local magistracy, and
placing it in the hands of Government, was declared to
be for the purpose of discouraging pally influences.
But the power which the magistracy possessed had never
extended beyond the filling up of constables and sub-
constables. The power was, by the Act, nominally vested
in the Lord-Lieutenant, but peculiarly in the Inspector-
General. How had the practice been carried out by the
Noble Marquis ? He thought there were 140 offices to
be filled up from 500/. a year downwards. There were
also offices not immediately cormected with the police,
there were fifty or sixty stipendiery magistrates ap-
pointed by Government. Let them see how the Noble
Marquis had acted. Of eighteen appointments to the
office of paymaster, and he (Lord Stanley) would not
say that Colonel Shaw Kennedy had not had an exagge-
rated view of the patronage to which he was entitled—
but cif the eighteen appointments to the situation of pay-
master, he recommended six. To the vacant offices of sti-
pendiary magistrate he recommended only seven from
the sub inspectors, not one of which recommendations
were adopted. Junior officers were placed over them,
and these appointments made the Inspector-General ap-
pear in oee of two lights, either as not doing justice to
the officers, or as leaving a total blank in the administra-
tion of the affairs of the constabulary of the country.
And the result of the recommendations made by the In-
spector-General—(Hear, bear, and laughter)—was this,
that only two of these recommendations were adopted.
The Duke of WELLINGTON—Two only adopted
out of all the recommendations edopted?—(Laughter.)
The Marquis of NORMANBY—Oh, no.
Lord STANLEY—The Noble Marquis said, "Oh, no."
He (Lord Stanley) said that in the promotions made in
the years 1836 to 1839, only two officers had been
appointed at the instigation of Colonel Shaw Kennedy,
the others were all promoted by the Noble Marquis.
He would take the declaration of Lord Morpeth on the
23d of March, when the question upon this subject, after
the resit: nation of Colonel Shaw Kennedy, in consequence
of the Noble Marquis' refusing to accede to his recom-
mendations, was brought before the other House. The
Noble Lord said he was prepared to state that all the
appointments made since the period of the passing of the
Act were made by the Inspector-General, with the ex
ception of chief-constables alone, which his Excellency
retained in his own gift. This was the statement made
by the Chief Secretary for Ireland, in defence of the
Government. On that ground they lost the benefit
of Colonel Shaw lennedy's services ; and yet the
Noble Marquis told - them that they had violated
this very principle which he had afterwards en-
tered into with Colonel Shaw Kennedy's suc-
cessor, Colonel Macgregor. The Noble Marquis did
not make that the condition of Colonel Macgregor's ac-
cepting office. He was quite ready to assent to the pro-
priety of the Inspector-General having full control over
the inferier officers of the constabulary, but this he cer-
tainly did say, that in an office so important as that of
Deputy-Inspector-General, it was absolutely essential
that the Lcrd-Lieutenant should not be precluded from
exercising his fair prerogative, even if it should not
happen to be in consonance with the opinion of the In-
spector General. It was obviously the interest of the
Lord-Lieutenant to promote the efficiency of the force,
and he must be anxious to give its due weight to the re!
commendation of the Inspector-General in certain cases;
but with regard to the higher offices he was justified in
retaining the right of exercising his own judgment. In
filling up those offices he might refer to Major Priestly,
who had been appointed to the office of Deputy-Inspector-
General by Lord Heytesbury.—(The Noble Lord then
referred to the services of the Gallant Major.) He would
not object to granting the motion which the Noble Lord
moved for, provided he would embrace the higher ap-
pointments, and order it from the Ist of May, 1836, in-
stead of 1838.
The Marquis of NORMANBY rose to reply, and
hesitated a few moments whether be shoed,' do so. He
had waited for the pupuse of seeing whether or not the
Noble Duke would speak.
The Duke of WELLINGTON then rose. He could
assure the Noble Marquis that nothing had been farther
from his intention than to misrepresent any part of his
conduct. He certainly thought ne had done everything
in his power to avoid discussing the question upon the.
former occasion, for, at that time, he happened to be in
a situation in which it was impossible for him to attend.
His friend the President of the Council and the Noble
Lord the Secretary for the Colonies had stated
their readiness to undertake the w
task . if the
Noble Marquis persisted in his Toel. He
bad, in fact, paid no attention to the subject. till two
or three (lays before the discussion came on, and. when
the Noble Marquis had stated his determine:lon to
bring it forward, and after what he had heard to-night,
he (the Noble Duke) thought the Noble Marquis would
regret that he had not delayed the motion till he had
given the opportunity of looking into the subject. H e
had,
as he said before, not the smallest intention of mis-
representing any part of the conduct of the Noble Ma-
rquis. He had certainly stated that the Lord-Lieute-
nant, under the Act of Parliament, had certain rights
and duties to perform ; and that he was to estimate
those rights, and to look to the performance of his
duties to the provisions of the Act of Parliament, and
not to any arrangement made by his predecessors in
office, and most particalarly when his former prede-
cessor entertained views not in accordance with arrange-
ments to be made by the existing Government. He (the
Duke of Wellington) had quoted the course pursued by
the Noble Marquis himself in the appointment of in
specturs, and he had stated that after the Noble Marquis
had informed Colonel Macgregor that he should have
the recommendation of all the chief constables, that he
should have their appointments, and that ha then
turned round, took away two-thirds of them, stating
that the right of appointment should be one in
three. He thought he was borne out in these statements
by the evidence taken before their Lordships' Committee.
If be had made any misrepresentation of the intentions
of the Noble Marquis, it had been forced upon him, and
he thought it would be acknowledged by their Lord-
ships, that no man had tried more to avoid discussion on
the question than he had.—(Hear.)
Earl ST. GERMANS thought the Noble Marquis
would, upon consideration, find that upon no ground bad
the appointment of head-constables taken place without
the approbation of the inspector-general.
The Marquis of NO. RMANBY, in replying, stated
that he had no objection to the extended form of the
motion, as suggested by the Noble Lord the Secretary
of State for the Colorues. He considered that the
claims of Major Brownrigg had been shown on all sides,
and that those of Major Priestly bore no comparison to
them. The Noble Marquis then proceeded to taunt
Ministers with not bringing on their Irish Registration
Bill, which he asserted they dare not do, and declaimed
against their conduct in appointing ,noh a man as Mr.
Howley as first sergeant, in preference to a man of such
high talents as Mr. Sergeant Warren, for the mere pur-
pose of having it said they had appointed a Catholic in
preference to a Protestant and an old tried Conservative
supporter. Mr. Attorney-General Smith, at a meeting
held at the Mansion-house in Dublin, was reported to
have stated that he did net think that a Roman
Catholic was to be beliewd on his oath, and
a man who could make such a statement as
that was not fit to fill the office of Attorney-General !or
Ireland. And when the Right Hon. Gent!' man was ac-
cused of this in his place in Parliament, what answer did
he make to it ? hy, he did not say that he had not
made such
.a statement, but that he had seen a corrected
report of his speech, in which the objectionable words
were omitted. With reference to the returns, he had no
objection to amend his motion in the manner the Noble
Lord wished. He was only anxious to have such infor-
mation as was limited to the particular point to which he
wi hed to oirect the atteetien of the Noble Duke, from
winch it would be seen that the Noble Duke had p •
posed something had been taken from the Insix-cstilv-r-.
General which never belonged to him,
'I he Duke of WELLINGTON wis' cd to expi:
He certainly did net understand that he hid on dthe
zi.
former occasion made the statement Noble
Lord which .the
Lord said he did, because he was PPIT etly aware cif the
differei.ce between the head
hdslconats vt,aledreeegstehegcrandieafticoonn:
con-
stable. He perfectly knew
A .chief constable was of the rank of a commissioned'