The Sun.
London, England, 1842-04-16 00:00:00

:°Pon

7`zi I mature deliberation. No general officer was
.;441 0 Confirm a punishment upon the first conviction.
„ter afely say for himself that whenever he had confirmed
0e of the court-martial, he had done so with great
e, and from a conviction that in that case it was ne-
bt or the discipline of the service. He would recommend
} use to leave it to the humanity of the officers, cod-
by the admirable regulations to which he had referred,
1 the attempts which had been made, and were still
1---attempts in which the Noble Lord opposite (Lord
t4'411) and the late Secretary of War had taken an
ge art—( Hsu, hear)—to raise the moral character of the
ra. He thought that the distinction of flogging in peace and
4111" lid on the line of march, and any other time, was most
ti Serous and offensive.— (Hear, hear.) With regard to the
sot '„uf theft, he begged to ask the Hon. Member, ought
the soldier to be punished for making away with
~ accoutrements, and ammunition ? What greater crime
I•7,tl4(intthhere be than making away with those articles? and
11 ulg but positive theft would be punidied by the Hon.
erebe •
its 61. • With regard to drunkenness, which the lion Alem-
tuacknowledged to be the parent of all crimes, it was his
t611°,1, that of all other crimes,- it was the one that' should be
exempt. He should, therefore, give his vote, under
Son ',erre and honest conviction, that in the present constitu-
4°F the British army, the punishment of flogging cannot
hPelised with, with 'safety to its discipline.—( Hear. )
kti MACAULAY begged to state briefly the course he
tat
to pursue on the present occasion. He might with per-
ite;°,93lrteney vete for the motion of th Hon. Member, as
°.leet of flogging was not brought under disc assion during
we:!;e he had the honour of being in office"; but he thought
111142'1e duty of persons in opposition to take upon themselves
414.: of that unpopularity which may attach to them in con-
thWeie of their opinions as to what they deem necessary for
ItstleTo?fervice. The inquiry which it was his du(y to make
ktte,' turn, not that flogging was not carried to a frightful
14,4`% former times, bid. that they had done away with it as
14,41 t was safe. 7he instances or flogging ought to be very
Withi
al the limits allowed by the law. By the adoption
measures as had been alluded to—furnishing the
'114,f amusement to the men, and giving them opportunities
iectual enjoyments—very much might be done to render
44,1110 g unnecessary, but he conceived it would not be safe to
It it altogether, or on the ground of a distinction between
Sidaad war.—(Hear, hear.) Under these circumstances he
sti,;lote against the motion ; and if it had been brought
last year, he should have taken the same course.
the debate another question had been raised respecting
Nothaaistency of the Hon. Gentleman, and the line of con-
St: Pursued with regard to the subject upon the former
a, and he invited them to look to the Mirror of Par-
SiLt as to what he said in 1840. He (Mr. Macaulay)
i4'07.11t0 read a part of what he said. His words, before
tgu for a Select Committee, were—" I call on the
o'rolish this barbarous and brutal torture, and to show
Nue atal nations that the British soldier can discharge his
419 E n equal fidelity under the influence of a noble feeling."
of hear.) He (Mr. Macaulay) thought that to call
7"., House to abolish " barbarous and brutal torture" was
l'447sit to any vote. That was on the 20th of May, 1838,
ktt conceived that it had been satisfactorily made out that
411 the year 1836 and 1838 a change had taken place in
I:Pirliens of the Hon. Member.
Isgd ARTHUR LENNOX, in reply to the observation of
VI Gentleman opposite, that no man had ever been re.
kete4 by the infliction of corporal punishment, would re-
'that there were at present in hor Majesty's service four
Who had, while privates, received corporal punishment.
itte ear.) It had also been attempted to he shown, that because
titt:ea% no corporal punishment inflicted in some of the
ros„sall armies, we could, therefore, do away with it. Now,
koh7gard to the French army, ho would observe, that in the
Itt7 of one year 81 men had been sentenced to death, and
sentence had carried into execution in
istilsif of the cases. Now, if that had
_been the ease in the

VII
id service, what would the Hon. Member for Wycombe
Ittliss?—Hear, hear. Ag it said th as ere
;So: flogging in the Irish police,ain, theywas at
could do away there
with
1) gin the British army. The Irish police was consti-
-4ltsitieta better class of men.--(Opposition cheers.) If they
itt, Five the British soldier the same pay they (lid the Irish po •
N!setter class of men would enter the army, and they might
5, Bled to do away with corporal punishment.—( Opposition
lost) The pay of the British soldier was eighteen pounds
lti„ , and the pay of the Irish policeman was thirty-
,gtelands a year without any deduction, while from the
„Sr, the British soldier considerable deductions were made.
lk
Itltik!-ord A. Lennox) had been in the service twenty years.
to common with all who had witnessed the infliction of
Ntil punishment, considered it a brutal and disgusting ex-
eke °o, but it was his deliberate opinion that it could not be
iS:I4Ly with. He had endeavoured, whenever he had had
Il'er, to diminish its infliction as much as possible; and
;steadpy to say, that during the last four years, he had
''rice.—(Hear,
occasion to order the infliction of corporal punish-
i)Vslice.—(Hear, hear.) He acknowledged that corporal
!isloent was a great evil, but he was afraid that, at present,
ki,'`,4l not be safe to abolish it altogether.
iii 11414.9.
but said that his experience in the army
0,71? light, but he could not avoid giving utterance to
leloti,:that the infliction of corporal punishment in time of
it l'ot unnecessary. If that were the case, nothing could
Isteater disgrace to the army, than to allow the practice of
Nktig 'corporal punishment to exist. A better class of men
41,1ft:digt, did the not fear that they should subject them-
to. the liability yof undergoing a punishment which they
Vrted a degradation. That it might be neces-
iteee time of war, was no argument for retaining it
koz,°l peace. It could only be justified by necessity.
4iiietting soldiets to corporal punishment they were
I, 4112 g a distinction between them and all other classes.
,Ni 4 sure that if the punishment were done away with
Ili ',tiler effectual means would be found of insuring the
itll:l„,l4l,ectede of anto ra
differ t . He id not sefrom oe why soldiers should
, " . dreatmentther men. In
,4114 native soldiers were not liable to be flogged, and he
, 4 they were not deficient in discipline. He was glad to
N L t although the motion might not be carried, the subject
Ilrea brought under the consideration of the House, as he
1/41,a,tvits discussion would be attended with advantage.
1 .
4) IVIAN said, he regretted that a subject which
lit4teadY been so fully discussed had again been brought
z.ce House, especially at the period when it was found
il ni. Y -to make a large increase in our army. He did
,Nl4l'l‘ it would be desirable that military commanders
Llpsi.,ue deprived altogether of the power of inflicting
kst "4 punishment. It should be remembered that
NbLillnushment was inflicted in extreme cases only.
k 5474: say the sympathy of lion. Gentlemen was rather
lt!rs
~ way when it was extended towards a class of men who
i
ItiNl of those better feelings and principles of which the
lit, :4,9ldier ought to boast, because the punishment of flog-
s Its i- . •
kall4, tiFicted rather as au example. and upon men on whom
LA(4: kinds ef.punishment had been tried without effect.
ilts2r. Vivian's) idea of the punishMent was, that it was
tstcsential in cases of insubordination than on the line of
Vor in case of theft, and
,lit as an example to deter others.
ye
punishment of drill ought, in his opinion, to be
ikittle to as little as possible. Then with respect to solitary
k.itil.toent, there was a class of men in the army who cared
Vol were confined ten days out of every month or fort-
ziiii,,,.. Besides, the effect of the infliction of that
Anent would be, that all the well-conducted men
Sk have to do the duty of those whose ill-
Ne,t... got them confined. Then, again, it was re-
-4,. ed to confine offenders in the hulks. Now, in any
lits-,.'t of the British dominions, as, for instance, in China,
k,l4!iitrosent time, the punishment of the hulks could not be
0.i:',., Allusion had been made to the efficient state of tho
Lut it „s`te, in which the punishment of flogging was unknown.
'fti 'Ott be borne in mind that the men chosen for that
te *
I, kid were selected for their good character, of which they
i,(Stiotelinbit a testimonial before they were received. lie
i7,stt one of those who wished to see this punishment carried
Za tokt in the army. He should rejoice in nothing more
itibs see tke army brought to such a state when such a
Oiletil"leat need no longer be held in terrorem over the head
Ithe soldier. But as no officer now could abuse the power,
Ittsti oontrary, as every Gentleman who had spoken had ad-
oit that every commanding officer did his best to dispense
7tti,%°„tlauch as possible, he could not but express his regret
littt clon. Gentleman had chosen this particular time to
lApt ? subject under discussion.
1,4110;411 HOWARD having claimed the indulgence of the
t, for addressing it, said he hart expected, to hear the same
4ts adduced in the present, that they had heard on
S44occasions, and that he should have met with similar
_‘‘k4 to the sympathies of the country ; but yet, where
Nties of individual hardship were considered, they should
,'ti mind that the legislation of that House bad:generally
tittleaducted on more broad and coruprehensiveprinciples.—
liO4. el " Divide, divide.") He wished to quote the opinion
Ni., • Mackintosh, who he knew was considered a high
N't On both sides of the House. With regard to the dis•
I< an army, he says, " A prompt and active obedience,
L*1,... sity is the first principle that hold armies together, and
k!l4,tlecessary in an army than in any other body of men,
i, 41,0ut it they will speedily degenerate. into a ferocious
k tk`itle of the greatest and wisest men had concentrated ‘
sti e sentence the description of an army, iu saying that an
iSte, tild disciplined body may be dangerous to liberty, but
cla, iell Undisciplined body was dangerous to society." The
h ,/,,.,linber concluded by stating that in 1836 the opinion of
ttisZtes,.ol the land was against the abolition of corporal
''lt.-',„ent.
ttIICHOLL said, as he had never expressed his opinion
kp..t i'ouse on the subject under consideration, he trusted he
N, e allowed to make one or two remarks. It was the
stota 4 'if all the highest authorities, military and civil, that
ko4t Possible to maintain the discipline of the army with-
\7lll to the power of inflicting corporal punishments,
übl.t was extremely desirable to restrain the exercises of
ytt tiger within the narrowest possible limits. He would state
lit °llse the number of soldiers who were imprisoned, and the
'1 e2tho had received corporal punishment, in the years
1,1. sad 1838. In 1831, the number imprisoned was
,j.!2; the number who received corporal punishment,
00,- in IS3B, the number imprisoned ain)unted to
lugitt:hile the number upon whom corporal punishment was
V_ si.,'„ was reduced to 850. His object in referring to
0.-.l° show that the military authorities were determined
4,,,0•1thin the narrowest limits this severe but necessary
ON t-ent--(1 oud cries of " Divide, divide.") He had in-
kkisije' make some' further' remarks, but as Hon. Gentlemen
thDatient for a division, he would not trespass any longer
;,4: attention of the House.
Nhoe;IIIAVVDON said, notwithstanding the imp stie.nce of
41,05. ,-e? he could not allow himself to give a silmt vote on
V'Qbs-rl4,l°n• His belief was, that if the motion of the Hon.
14‘14,411i 'et Wycombe were carried, it would be cl.structive
4ssi4kipline of the army, and therefore prejudicial to the
1i1k41,.)r the countrs ; and he would consider his conduct
ky, IA 4f he did not boldly express that conviction.—( Hear,
)tkil attr.) He must say that he could not at
i, Athat question being brought forward year }after
111%, 5,,,, few years back a Commission wits issued
,I'' good faith with a view of finding if possible a substi-
kj..ei feurporal punishment. Tat CommisO.un vas com-
itl /It ?lir civilians and three military men, so that however
ill 4;1'4 said that military men were bir.sed in their judg-
ttpo tins ease the preponderence was on the other side.
)14Z, art of that Commission stated that it was the opinion •jr
Nt h "Y witness called that the substitution of c;ther
Wlajici.tlts in time of active service would be impossible with-
ett J. to the discipline of the army. What was the
kor, the Disks of Wellington—a name which in the
4% te4'ommons, on military subjects,' would. always com-
t4 4,,Zet?—Hear, hear.) The Duke was raked, '• While
!1/4,,Sndee commanded the army, was it your wish, and did
yak lemur to diminish the frequency of corporal
alit'
itcists, f.,s That he much as you could?" His Grace's
had done so himself as far
Ni4t eve' and that he had found the, same endeavour on the
\Ati :IrY commanding officer who knew his duty.' When
p:tp whether he knew of any efficient substitute fur
t., 01,2,11,ment, his Grace said that he had turned the
%
lii,islot ::: in his mind, and he wr,s of opinion that they
,011Lcit thiiintain the army in an efficient state without re-
1, Itti44` Ponishnient. The punishment of imprisonment
% e4lstr as regarded the well-conducted men. By
t, they would be diminishing their force, and the
Csmeted men would have to do the work of the man.
Istiktd
Ne/ith'"(llear, hear.) He would be glad to do
Nm.;!orporal punishment, but they ought to pause
11 ,4:Stsr4lng such a course. He (Col. Bowdon) had acted
le, rq a court-martial which had sentenced a soldier
li; -Ot
rink
in 1840, to feceive 150 lashes. He
tl7oi 14 riuk from the responsibility that might attach to 1
;14%4: share in passing that sentence. The man had at-
4114;s1,fire at his comrades through a partAion, and for
~fire
been punished. The great object of punishment
-"stile: otters from the commission of crime by the force
Now imprisonment did pot eperAte as an ex-