The Sun.
London, England, 1827-05-23 00:00:00

CURRENCY OF IRELAND.

Sir H. PARNELL presented a petition from the Mer-
chants and Tradesmen of the city of Dublin respecting the
Currency and Banking systetn of Ireland.

TEST AND CORPORATION ACTS.
Lord MILTON presented a petition from the Protestant
Dissenters of Driffield, in the county of York, praying for
the Repeal of the Test and Corporation Acts.—Ordered to
lie on the table, and to be printed.
Lord MILTON presented a similar petition from the
Protestant Dissenters of Cotherstone, in the county of
York. The petitioners stated, that by these statutes one
of the most solemn ordinances of the Christian Church_
that of marriage—was perverted from its sacred design,
and prostituted to !ocular purposes.
The petition was ordered to lie on the table, and to be
printed.

Lord MILTON next presented similar petitions from
the Protestant Dissenters of Holniforth, Great Rippon, and
Burlington, in the county of York.
Lord MILTON, in presenting a similar petition from
the Protestant Dissenters of Huddersfield, begged to draw
the attention of the House to a passage in a letter accom-
panying this petition, which had been sent to him by a
Dissenting Minister of great respectability and learning.
This passage was the more important, as it had been often
stated in that House, that the Protestant Dissenters ge-
nerally were adverse to the emancipation of Roman Catholic
Dissenters, The Minister from whom he received this
letter stated, that though undoubtedly many of the Protes-
tant Dissenters might he opposed to what was called Catholic
Emancipation from wrong and partial views of the
question, he was persuaded that by far the greater number
of those who were best informed, and who possessed the
highest consideration among them, were decidedly in favour
of that measure.

The petition wa% ordered to lie on the table, and to be
printed.

CORONERS' FEES.
Sir R. VIVIAN presented a petition from the Coroners
of the county of Cornwall, praying for an increase of their
Fees and Allowances.—Ordered to lie u., the table.
TEST AND CORPORATION ACTS.
Sir R. WILSON presented a petition from some of the
most respectable Protestant Dissenters of the Borough of
Southwark, praying not only for the Repeal of the Test
and Corporation Acts, but for the repeal of all laws im-
posing restrictions on his Majesty's subjects for their reli-
gious opinions. He would take this opportunity of cor-
recting some misconstruction which had gone forth, as to
what he had stated on a former occasion in that House.—
What he had said was, that he was so sincere a friend to
religious liberty that he would rather share the fate of the
oppressed, than benefit by a participation in the privileges
of the oppressor. As a proof of the feeling existing among
Protestant Dissenters in favour of Catholic Emancipation,
he would mention the fact, that at a meeting held in the
Borough, at which SO Ministers belonging to the three de-
nominations of Protestant Dissenters were present, they
were all, with a single exception, favourable to Catholic
Emancipation ; and even the Minister who was unfavour-
able to that measure declared that he would rather see Ca-
tholics in Parliament than give his approbation to a mec
sure by which religion was profaned and prostituted to tem-
poral advantages.
Mr. WELLS stated that the Protestant Dissenters
among his Constituents were unfavourable to Catholic
Emancipation.

Lord MILTON observed, that the Member for Maid-
stone (Mr. 'Wells) had borne testimony, as far as his local
kut ,ledge went to 41'e sentiments of that portion of his
Constituents which was not disposed to support Catholic
Emancipation. For his part, he (Lord Milton) had fre-
quently communicated with a great number of Dissenters,
and, as far as his testimony went, he could state that the
Dissenting Ministers in congregations were uniformly in
favour of absolute liberty of conscience. They were anxious
to do away with all those laws which interposed between
man and his Creator, and to put au end to every civil dis-
qualification on the ground of religious opinions. He (Lord
Milton) regretted that the Dissenters of Maidstone did not
participate in the sentiments of almost all the Dissenters in
the county of York.

Lord NUGENT denied that Protestants were generally
unfavourable to the question of Catholic Emancipation...—
He (Lord Nugent) represented a body of upwards of 2000
constituents, a large proportion of whom were Dissenters.
He had been returned without a canvass, and without in-
curring a single shilling of expense; and, though the elec-
tors could not be ignorant of his sentiments on the great
question of Catholic Emancipation, he had uniformly made
it his business, as be felt it to be his duty, at the close of
every Address he made to them, to say, " Do not be de-
ceived ; if you elect me, you will elect one who will vote
heart and soul for Catholic Emancipation." Upon this
understanding, and under these circumstances, he had been
elected with the concurrence and support of the electo'•s
belonging to the four great sects of Protestant Dissenters.

Mr. W. HARVEY maintained that the claims of the
Protestant Dissenters were founded upon principles of im-
mutable justice, since they denied that any human power
ought to interpose between them and filch Creator ;
whereas the Catholics were strenuous advocates for inter-
ference of the most arbitrarykind, and for the interposition
of human ordinances in 'natters of religion. He was per-
suaded, that if ever the Catholic religion again obtained an
ascendancy in this kingdom, it would be unfavourable, if
not entirely hostile, to the principle of the Protestant Dis-
senters.—The petition was ordered to lie on the table, and
to be printed.
Lord HOWICK presented a similar petition from a
place of which we did not catch the name.
Mr. JONES observed that the Protestant Die enters of

Caermartheushire were generally opposed to Catholic
Emancipation, and expressed his surprise that the Noble
Lord opposite should have inferred, from the opinion of a
solitary individual, that all the Protestant Dissenters of the
county of York were favourable to that measure.
Lord MILTON denied that he had inferred, from one
solitary instance, that all the Protestant Dissenters of th;
county of York were favourable to the Catholic Claims.
He had had frequent communications with Dissenters in
various parts of that county, and the result of those com-
munications justified him in declaring his opinion, that the
Protestant Dissenters of York were generally favourable to
the removal of civil disabiliti,s from their Roman Catholic
brethren. As the Honourable Member for Caermarthen-
shire (Mr. Jones) had misunderstood what had fallen from
him, he would again read, for his illumination, the passage
in the letter of the respectable Dissenting Minister to
which he had adverted. The Noble Lord again read the
passage, and contended, that although the Honourable
Member for Caermartheushire had a right to bear testi-
mony to the sentiments of his constituents, he had no
right to attempt to weaken the effect of the statement
•••hick he (Lord Milton) was enabled to make, as to the
sentiments of Protestant Dissenters in the part of the
country with which he was connected.
Mr. JONES repeated, that the statement made by the
Noble Lord appeared to be foundA upon the solitary
opinion of one individual.
Lord MILTON totally denied that he hod said ‘1111y,;
to justify the observation of the Honourable Member for
Caermartheushire. He had distinctly stated that he had
had other communications from Protestant Dissenters to
the same effect.
Mr. WELLS took that opportunity of observing that
the Protestant Dissenters of the county of Kent were ge-
nerally opposed to Catholic Emancipation.
The petition was ordered to lie on the table and to be
printed.

Dr. LUSHINGTON presented a petition from the Pro-
testant Dissenters of Stradbroke, in the county of Suffolk,
praying for the Repeal of the Test and Corporation Acts.
Ordered to lie on the table and to be printed.
JURISDICTION OF THE COURT OF CHANCERY.

Mr. M. A. TAYLOR, in submitting to the House his
motion relative to the Separation of Cases of Bankruptcy
from the Jurisdiction of the Court of Chancery, felt him-
self called upon to occupy the attention of the House at
some, though, he trusted, at no very protracted length.
Often as he had advocated this question before the House,
he felt that he should be unable to discharge what he con-
sidered to be his duty to the public, unless the House
would lend him its serious attention. Questions of this
nature were not, in general, very palatable to the House,
because they did not afford any opportunity for the display
of eloquence, or for the introduction of such topics as were
calculated to contribute to the amusement of the House.
He wished particularly to impress upon the minds of Hon.
Gentlemen the nature of the measure which it was his in-
tention to introduce, and upon which he meant to take the
sense of the House. The question was one of no ordinary
importance; it was not a question of an isolated cha-
racter, but it was a question in which the whale body of
the people of England was deeply interested. He was sa-
tisfied that without some such reform in the business of
the Court of Chancery as that which he should submit to
the T-Teuse, all attempts to relieve the suitor would be in-
effectual. He had been repeatedly told on former occasion+,
in bringing this subject before the House, that to recom-
mend to the House any reform of the business of the Court
of Chancery was to pronounce a libel on the character of
the Chancellor. Let the good man, it was said, who holds
the office of Chancellor, live out his time ; and then, if
you will, reform the Court. Such was the language which
was formerly urged against proposed forms of the Court of
Chancery. Ile had yet to learn whether, after the changes
which had lately taken place, he should be supported in
his attempt to introduce reform. At any rate he would do
his duty, and let the Government do theirs. The whole
truth should be fairly stated. If the system still worked
ill, its defects should be still exposed ; for it was absurd to say
that new brooms would sweep better than the old, and that,
therefore, there was no necessity to introduce reform. The
question which he was about to bring under the considera-
tion of the House was not one of a complicated nature; lie
should, in discussing it, appeal to the plain common sense
of Hon• Members. Cases of bankruptcy were not origi-
nally appended to the Great Seal ; they were appended to
it by statute, as the jurisdiction in cases of lunacy had been
added by a special commission. To reen of plain intellect
like himself, it was perfectly clear that the individual filling
the office of Chancellor had more to do than human power
was capable of performing, and that the wisest course
would be to rid him of an appendage to hie office which
was not of the essence of the Great Seal. There would be
no difficulty in selecting a person to discharge with efficacy
the duties of which he proposed to relieve the Chancellor.
He was sorry that he did not see a Right Hon. Gentleman
in his place, whom he should have reminded, if he had
been present, of an expression which had fallen from him
on a former occasion. He (Mr. M. A. Taylor) begged to
say, that he never quarrelled with men for changing their
opinions---all he did was to defend his own opinions ; and
on this occasion he might be permitted to say, that some
of the greatest men who had ever adorned this country en-
tertained the same opinions. It was certainly with some
astonishment he had heard that the motion he intended to
make this night was to be opposed. That motion was
merely—that the House should resolve itself into a Com-
mittee, to take into its serious consideration the statute of
the 13th Elizabeth, and other statutes which gave to the
Lord High Chancellor jurisdiction in matters of bank-
ruptcy. He had often had occasion to bring this question
before the House, to expose the delays of the Court of
Chancery, and to endeavour to introduce some reforms cal-
culated to benefit the suitor ; but he had always been met
by the assertion, that the introduction of such questions
was an attack on the character of the Chancellor. Nu man
could entertain a higher respect than he did for the great
and splendid talents and the profound legal knowledge of
the late Chancellor; but he had often felt surprise, that
when that learned person saw every day before him the
mischief resulting from the state of the Court of Chan-
cery, he had made nn attempt to reform the abuses of
the existing system. He (Mr. M. A. Taylor) trusted that
if he did not succeed in his motion to-night, he should suc-
ceed on some other night, for he was determined not to
abandon the question. There were some gentlemen in that
House who were disposed to attribute all the evils arising
from the Court of Chancery to one man, and others who
entirely differed from them in this opinion. For his part,
he (Mr. M. A. Taylor) stood upon his own opinions ; and
he thought they were net to be told, at this time of day,
that Parliament ought to wait because there was a new Ad-
ministration, and a new Judge of the Court of Chancery.
It should be recollected that no effectual step had yet been
taken to reform the Court of Chancery. None of re-
commendations in she Report drawn le, by his lamented
Friend, Sir S. Romilly, had been adopted ; and the country
had little reason to place any confidence in promisee of Re-
form, unless Parliament carried such promises into effect.
Towards the Noble Lord who now filled the office of Lord
Chancellor, he had no feeling but one of kindness. He
had no doubt that, raised and elevated as he had been to
that high dignity, and aware, as he must be, of the ruin
and distress which had been occasioned by the existing
system—ruin and distress which in many cases that he
(Mr. M. A. Taylor) could detail, were enough to make a
man's heart bleed—he would, at the first blush, think of
improvement ? but be might also think of the profits aris-
ing from eases of bankruptcy. The present Master of the
Rolls, a particular friend of his, had, by his eminent ser-
vices in the office of Vice-Chancellor, assisted by the exer-
tions of Sir Wm. Grant, while he remained as Master of
the Rolls, contributed in a great degree to preserve the
character of the Court. He was convinced indeed, that if
it had not been for their efforts the Court of Chancery
could not have gone on ; and he believed there was none of
the late appointments or elevations which had given greater
satisfaction than that of the promotion of that learned
person to the Rolls. He contended, however, that the de-
lays of the Court of Chancery took their date long previous
to the time of Lord Eldon. Many persons supposed they
were owing to the conduct of Solicitors, but he knew. that
the body of that profession had several times attempted to
remedy the oil. The Hon. *ntleman then entered into
a defence of the conduct of the Solicitors of that Court,
and related some circumstances connected with their efforts
to amend the practice. About three years ago, a Com-
mission had been appointed to inquire, as well into the best
mode of remedying the delays of that Court, as into the
question of what part of the "business could be withdrawn ;
and after two years' investigation, the lamed person now
elevated to the dignity of Lord Chancellor introduced a Bill
into that House, founded upon the recommendations of the
Report. That Bill, however, thus founded upon the recall-

mendations of that Commission, contained propositions
and clauses so absurd and ridiculous, that no Member of
that House, who had any common sense, could be found to
support it ; and, after a short time, it was withdrawn under
a pretence of the late period of the Session.—[The Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer having entered the House at this
moment, the Hon. Gentleman again stated the object of his
motion, and expressed a hope that the Right Hon. Gentle-
man wouldsrant him the same assistance and support now,
which he had so ably afforded him in the year 1813.-j
On the 11th of March, 1813, siren he had brought for-
ward his propositions upon the subject of the Vice-Chan-
cellor's Bill, the Right Hon. Gentleman declared, "it
seemed to him most advisable that some amendment should
he proposed which might tend to relieve the Chancellor-, by
stripping his office of some great limb of its ordinary bu-
siness. There was no part of that business the abstraction
of which would be liable to less objection than that which
was not of the essence of the office, but only superadded to
it by statute. He had consequently stated, on a former
occasion, that if any one proposed such au amendment, and
if the House adopted it, he should support the Bill with
his vote." The Right Hon. Gentleman haying expressed
those opinions upon the subject then, he called upon him to
support them now ; and he, at the same time, hoped the
whole Administration would step forward and give him
their support in compliance with the unanimous expression
of the feeling of the country. He had conversed with all
classes, agricultural and commercial, and he was bound to
say they all viewed the (Heys and evils of the Court of
Chancery in the same light. They declared, one and all,
that the Court of Chancery produced such inordinate ex-
peaces, and such vexatious delays, that it amounted almost
to a high misdemeanor in the Government to suffer their
continuance—(Hear, hear, hear.)—As a proof of the opi-
nions entertained by commercial men on the subject of the
present Administration of the Bankrupt Laws, he would
beg to refer the House to a Report made in March last, by
the Committee appointed by the Common Council of the
City of London to inquire into the state of the law and its
influence upon the interests of trade. As that Report had
not yet been published, and Members of the House could
not be supposed much acquainted with its purport, he
would take leave to read an extract or two for their infor-
mation. The Report states, " that the Committee having
been appointed to take into its consideration the propriety
of presenting petitions to both Houses of Parliament
for constituting a regular Tribunal for the administration
of the Bankrupt Laws, certify to the Court, that after
having procured copies of the opinions of many professional
men, and the evidence of some of the most respect-
able Merchants, Bankers, and Traders in the Cit•; of Lon-
don, and having corresponded with some of the most re-
spectable merchants and traders in Liverpool, Gloucester,
Bristol, Manchester, and elsewhere, as well as with the
most eminent Barristers, Solicitors and Commissioners, in
those towns ; and that after having considered their evi-
dence, annexed to the Report, and looking to all the in-
formation they had received on this most important subject
—they are fully of opinion that the present state of the
Bankrupt Laws, as no,e, administered in this country, is
totally inconsistent, and at variance with the intention and
meaning of the original constitution of those laws—and
that the present system of the administration of the Ba^`--
rupt Laws falls short of the necessities required by fEe
commercial interests of this country—and that after hav-
ing witnessed the nature os the administration of the law
by the Court of Commissioners, they are strongly of opi-
nion, that the Bankrupt Lew requires speedy and material
alteration." The expression of such opinions, the
Hon. Gentleman observed, connected with and supported
by such testimony, from all classes of society, rendered
little observation necessary from him with respect to the
necessity of the separation he required of Bankruptcy from
the Great Seal. The Hon. Member then adverted to the
opinions expressed by Sir Samuel Romilly upon the subject
of the Secretary of Bankrupts not being an accounting
officer ; and read from the Report of the Chancery Com-
mission, of which he was Chairman, a passage in Sir
Samuel Romilly's own band-writing. relative to the inex-
pediency of suffering the Lord Chancellor to derive, as he
did at present, a great portion of his emoluments from the
fees received by officers, while he did not acknowledge that
he so received them. The consequence of such a proceeding
was, that if the officer took a larger fee than be was entitled
to, the Chancellor, upon an appeal to him, was compelled, as
a Judge, to pronounce an opinion in a case where he was
directly interested. These fees, if they were necessary to
compose a salary to the Lord Chancellor, it was then pro-
posed to abolish altogether, and to increase the Chancellor's
salary by a sum equal to their amount, for it never could
be supposed that the highest officer in the kingdom was to
be supported by what may he considered nothing short of
a tax upon distress and insolvency.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
—lf he wanted any argument for a separation of these
duties of the Chancellor, he thought this part of the fees
taken by the Secretary to be sufficient. Lord Thurlow bad
settled the reversion of the office upon an infant ; and whe-
ther Lord Eldon had given it to his son or not he did not
know, but he thought it disgraceful to the country that so
much money should be paid when no work was done.•.-.
(Hear, hear.)----The Commissioners had given two reasons
against the separation of Bankruptcy from the Great Seal

—first, that Bankruptcy cases required a Judge of extra-
ordinary abilities and great Equity knowledge; and next,
that in case of such a separation the time of the Court of
Chancery might not be fully occupied. lie contended that
these reasons were wholly unsatisfactory ; that the business
of the Court of Equity required the whole time of a Judge;
and that so far from his being at present able to devote
that time to the dispensing of equity, three parts of it were
taken up with cases of bankruptcy. It had been referred
to the Commission, to inquire how far there might be auy
separation of the business brought before the Lord Chan-
cellor ; and it had been clearly given in evidence by the
most eminent persons examined, that the separation of
Bankruptcy from that business was an object mor,t desirable.
--(The Hon. Member then at some length the evi-
dence of the Chief Baron and others to that effect.)—lt
was quite impossible for any one man to discharge the whole
of the business that was new attached to the dice of Lord
Chancellor. Let any man look at the business that was to
be done, and declare, if he could, that it was at all prac-
ticable for any man to discharge the multifarious duties cf
the Lord Chancellor. If the evil was seen, as every man
must see it, why continue it ? He would adopt the ex-
pression of Mr. Shadwell—that the business of the Court
of Chancery was such, that three angels could not get
through it. There was the less necessity for the continu-
ance of this hardship on the suitors of the Court, as there
were many able persons so competent to the office of Judge
in Bankruptcies. A competent and efficient Judge would
remedy the delay, and other inconveniences, that at present
attended the practice in bankruptcy cases. He hoped the
Government would not be satisfied by granting little points,
or adopting any partial measures ; if any error or imperfec-
tion still remained, whilst he had life be would continue to
expose it from time to time, and take the sense of the
House, as he would do now. The Hon. and Learned Mem-
ber concluded by moving, that " the House resolve itself
into a Committee of the whole House, to consider the sta-
tute of the 13th of Elia. and the statutes which have been
subsequently passed, giving authority to the Great Seal in
cases of Bankruptcy."—(Hear, hear.)

Mr. HUME seconded the motion.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL commenced by observ-
ing, that his Hon. and Learned Friend (Mr. T.) was en-
titled to great praise for the uniform and persevering zeal
which he had exhibited in this important cause. The
public owed him great obligations for the assiduity and at-
tention he had bestowed upon the subject. Thia he felt
himself bound in justice to state, although he might not
quite agree with his Hon. Friend in some of his views
upon it. Whatever may be the result of the present
discussion in this House, it would, at all events, he
was satisfied, afford satisfaction, and be attended with
advantage. As to the motion itself, he would not be
disposed, probably, to offer any opposition to it, if his
Hon. Friend had stated any specific plan. Nor, has he
stated that any benefit would of necessity follow, if the
House were to enter into the Committee which he proposes.
As no such beneficial result was even proposed, and as he
did not anticipate any, he felt it his duty to oppose the
motion. In doing this, he would be very brief in the
statement of the facts which induced him to do so. And
first, he would state that it had always been an opinion of
his—one which he had entertained himself, and which,
though not then a INlenilier of the House, be had stated to
those with whom he had opportunities of communication,
at the time of the appointment of the Office of Vice-Chan-
cellor; namely, that instead of finding places for men co
fill up, it was better to act upon the contrary principle, of
finding proper men to fill the places already created. It
was then thought that the creation of that situation would
lead to increased expence, by creating inducements to

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not his intention river his win. Itiatike allusion farther than
the case required to the late Lord Chancellor. No indivi-
dual who knew that Noble Lord could speak of him with-
out feelings of respect, both as a man and as a judge. His
Hon. and Learned Friend Led stated, that if any thing
more than another was calculated to produce dissatisfaction
with the proceedings in Chancery, it was that constitue
tional caution, that slowness of decision, which amounted
to delay; and which, in its practical effects on the suitors
of that court, while it gave satisfaction to some, created
dissatisfaction an: discontent amongst many.—(Hear.)—
Now, if there should be found in an individual placed in.
that gig's situation any peculiar excess of caution (wh:-.Oa
was in itself a laudable quality) that gave dissatisfacti n,
it did not follow that they must, of necessity, resort t. a
multiplication of judges, and to an entirely new-modell fig
of the court. That, he feared, would not cure the evil.
The very learned and eminent individual who was
the second Vice-Chancellor (Sir J. Leach) had
expressed the same opinion in that House ; and the
truth of that opinion was afterwards fully illustrated.
—He should now proceed to state a few facts, from
which he would . deduce this inference, that with
three efficient judges,--and such they had,—there was not
the least necessity for subtracting from the Court
of Chancery any part of the jurisdiction ve2eich is now pos-
sessed; nor would the public have any cause eo complain
that the bankruptcy cases were not separated reom the
Great Seal. He did not mean to say, that if the legeslo-
ture chose to disjoin these powers, no person could fie
found adequate to the fair adjudication of bankruptcy
cases : he entertained no superstitious fear that they could
not find an individual calculated to perform the functions
of a separate judge in those cases 7 but before they adopted
such a course of policy, he thought it was necessary that
its expediency should be established. He should now advert
to the business in the Court of Chancery during the
last year. He should take the whole of the ceses of all
descriptions, and then point oat what the late Vice-
Chancellor had done to relieve the Court from the burden
by which it was pressed. His Hon. and Leareeel Friend, as,
well as many other Hon. Members, well kniw the curse ot
practice in Chancery; but as it might not be equally N.!:t'd
known to ali, be should briefly describe it. The first pee.-
cecding in a case was by bill and answer. When the ease
was heard, in the first instance, it might be ordered for
further hearing-.-sometimes on exceptions to the bill,
sometimes on exceptions to the answer. Besides these
protracted eases, there was a considerable number which
were disposed of very shortly. With respect to motions,
there had been no complaint ef delay until within the last
two years, when, from eircuaistatices to which he- need not
call the attention of the House, considerable delay had oc-
curred. Now the number of cases set down in the Court of
Chancery during the last four terms eesed thus:—Original
cases, 322; cases of farther direction and exception, 7C; cases
of exception, 30 ; pleas and demurrers, 45. He oext came to
the Master of the Polls, in whose court there wee .het down
—of the first class of cases, 258 ; of tile second, 93 ; o'f the
third, l 7; and none of the fourth. The total amount was
580 original cases; 171 cases fee further direction and ex-
ceptions; 47 cases of exceptions ; and 45 plea and de-
murrers. This he would take to be the average number
of cases that were to be disposed of in the course of a year.
The question then was, what number of cases WAS one
Judge capable of getting through in the course of a year
In answer to that, he would call on the House to look to
experience. The late Vice-Chancellor had, during the
four yeare which preceded his severe illness, disposed of a
great variety of cases. He fiche Attorney-General) had
taken the average, so as to give a correct idea of the num-
ber which that Learned Gentleman had decided in one rear.
From that calculation it appeared that Sic J. Leach, ase
late Vice-Chancellor, had in one year disposed of 450
Causes of the first class ; 212 of the second and third ; and.
79 pleas and demerrers. So that, if they deducted from
the namber of cases of all kinds set down, in the last year,
before the Lord Chancellor and the Master of the Rolls,
wbat the Vice-Chancellor had Leen able to decide upon it
the course of a year, they would find the result to be, that
it only left 130 causes in the first elan, nine in the second
and none in the third. Now, could any man suppose,
if one individua' wera capable ~f going through such a
mass of business, that two Learned Judges were not
able to manage a much greater portion ? These cases
were regularly set down before the Lord Ch_ icellor or
the Master of the Rolls ; the Vice-Chancellor, who was a
sort of supernumerary Judge, took the overflowing of the
practice in other Courts. He now came to the cases in
bankruptcy, to which his Hon. and Learned Friend stated
that his argument cl,:sfly api,lied. He should take the
average number of bankruptcy cases for the three last ye es.
From this it appeared, that there had been, in each of these
years, 590 petitions in bankruptcy cases. To this point
he called the particular attention of the Home, because it
had immediate reference to the mature of the jurisdiction
which his Hon. and Learned Friend wished to sever from
the Court of Chancery. Let the House then look to what
the Vice-Chancellor had done during tlse last four years.
He would not, on account of that Learned Cietatleman's ill-
ness, refer to an anterior period. The Vice-Chancellor
had, on the average, disposed of 453 bankruptcy pee;,eions,
in each year, during that period. Deduct that numbe..r
from 590, and it left 137 petitions to be disposed of bye
the Chancellor. He had already shown, that the Vice-
Chancellor had, in one year, disposed of cease in the first
class, to which he haul before referred, so as, when de-
ducted from the average total number act doWn, to leave
only 130 for decision ; and not more than nine in the se-
cond or third classes. This was not more than an active
Judge would dispose of in a Term ; and yet these remained
through the year. What had been the progress of busi-
ness in the Vice-Chancellor's Court when the late Master
of the Rolls recovered his health? There were, at that
time, four terms in arrear ; so, that, when he returned to
his professional duties, lie found that there was a consider-
able accumulation of business. To meet that arrear, the
Vice-Chancellor began by reducing it, in the proportion of
one term each year; so that, in the second year, the-.e
were only three terms in arrear; in the third, two; a;,d
at present, he believed, the arrear was very trifling, anti
would, in a very short time, be wholly removed. Vie
had now given a simple statement of the business in Chats-
eery. If his Hon. and Learned Friend asked bins what
was the reason of the delay in deciding the remainder
of the cases, lie must beg leave to decline answering
that questiou.--(Hear, hear.)—He was merely stating a
series of facts ; and it did not make against his slew of the
subject if it happened that a particular judge finished, in
the course of a term, only two eases, perhaps but one, or
sometimes not even one. The question was, whether it
(w
whom
wa was necessaryth ey
had
hande nfu they
experience,
had three judges,
r.
nd
with of o
.expectn e
to
two of them they bad no reason to despair) to remodel the
Court of Chancery, and to place additional burdens on the
public? In his opinion, the judges whom they had at
present were more than equal to do the whole business of
Chancery. He admitted that the Lord Chancellor had to
attend to lunatic petitions, and to appeals in the House of
Lords. But with respect to lunatic petitions, if they
would look even to those whirl found their way into
the public papers, they would not amount to more than
ten or a dozen in the year. The quanttnn of labour was
not so very considerable; and a Chancellor, with the be-
nefit of youth, health, and activity,
mould be ails to ac-
complish all that his office required. It was in the con-
templation of the present Lord Chancellor, assisted as he
was by the experience of those gentlemen who practised
in his
modert by n
hthimeself voluminous
tothe ii d
proceedings.
cases of bankruptcy might be abridged.—(Herr, hear.)
—Such a plan would be attended with the best effects ;
rsi uct i on
i
some n
of
for at present those proceedings were extended to a length
hardly conceivable. Let this experiment, then, be tried,
before they proceeded to a new field—before they nttempted
to remodel the whole form of the Court of Chancery.—
(Hear.)—He was happy to state that such a plan as he
had adverted to was in contemplation; and he felt most
confidently that it would eeaceed.—(Hear.)—They mist
all know--for it was most cheaply learned by those who
were not of the profession, by a perusal of the newspapers,
that the Court of Chancery was in the habit of receiving
affidavits, answers, replies, rejo;nders, rebutters, and our-
rebutters, to an almost endless extent. This was a great
defect in that Court; and he believed that, from an over-
anxious feeling on the part of the late Lord Chancellor,
which God forbid he should impute as a fault to that indi-
vidual, it was carried entirely too far. That Learned Lord,
from an over anxiety that nothing should be left undone that
could give satisfaction even to the losing party, allowed
the greatest latitude to this system. He thereby imposed
great labour on himself; while those who thought that a
court of justice should be a court of decision, and not of
doubt, were dissatisfied and discontented. Any measure
which tended to check this expensive accumulation of docu-
ments would be a very great improvement in the constitu-
tion of the Court. His Hor. and I earned Friend had
asked, what had become of the Bill which the present
Lord Chaocellor had introduced, founded on the report of
the Chancery Commissioners? He begged to remind his
Hon. and Learned Friend, that the Bill was not brought
in during the last, but in the present session, when the
Lord Chancellor held the situation of Master of the Rolls.
That Learned Lord gave notice of his intention to bring in
a Bill, and he introduced it with as elaborete vetch, but not

until the month of last November. Now, lithe Houle Would
permit him, he would state, that in his opinion, the Bill
in question would always disappoint the public. He did not
disagree with the Commissioners on any material point, and
he apptawed of many of their euggestions, though not of
all ; but he certainly felt, that to make those suggestions
the subject of a cumbersome Bill in Parliament, was a
proceeding not useless in itself, but one that would
disappoint the public. The present Lord ChancellOr
Woo was only the organ of the Commissioners, felt, he
knew, as (the Attorney-General) felt on that question._
The present Lord Chancellor was of opinion, and it was
his opinion also, that the specific points of improvement
noticed in the report of the Commissioners, did not require
any Act of Parliament for carrying them into effect, but
might be made by the autheriv of the Lord Chancellor in
his own Court. He knew nothing farther about the Bill.
He was not aware that the Learned Lord who introduced
it had requested any other individual to take it up. He
put it to his Hen. and Learned Friend, whether, under the
present ciocumstances of the Government and the country,
to which he would not allude more particularly', it would
not be more decorous to pause before he called upon the
House to take this matter, important though it was out of
the hands of his Majesty's Government. He owned
that the motion of his Honourable and Learned Friend
would appear to him, even though he v-ere to approve
of it much more than he did at present, to be premature,
and uncalled for under existing elect:instances. He
felt no alarm legit the duties of the Court of Chancery
should he found, too great for the performance of the head
of that coins and the two learned judges by whom he was
assiatede He knew that Sir Samuel Remilly had given
it ? his opinion that the Lord Chancellor did not
even require the assistance of the Vice Chancel'. ee ; and he
could say, or his own personal knowledge, that though that
great and illustrious man might 'slave lent himself to the
forwarding of improvements in the practice of that
Court, he had never deemed it necessary to give addi-
tional assistance to the Lord Chancellor for the discharge
of its business.—(Criss of hear, hear.) His Hon. and
Learned Friend referred to the evidence taken before the
Chancery Commission, in order to show that the Cons-
enisaieners were of opinion that the Lord Chancellor did
want assistance. He by no means intended to dispute
the honesty of those who had given evidence kefore that
Commission, and least of all the honesty of that gentleman
who had declared that three angels could not perform it._
He (the Attorney-General) was of opinion, that when they
had infused flesh vigour into that Court, and had intro-
duced more celerity into its proceedings, the business of it
evould be performed, not only by three angels, but by three
men of ordinary talent and industry. He had now stated
the grounds on which he intended to oppose the motion of
his Hon. and Learned Riend, the Member for Durham.
He received what his Hon. and Learned Friend had said
upon this occasion, as he did upon all other occasions, with
the most perfect conviction of his honesty and sincerity.—
He differed from him with great pain, as he had always
been accustomed to look up to him as a great authority upon
this question. But he was sure that his Hon. and Learned
Friend would do him the justice to recollect, that from the
very first moment in which the subject had been mooted in
Parliament, he had always differed from him as to the pro-
riety of giving additional assistance to the Lord Chan-
cellor ; and it was upon that ground principally that he felt
bound to meet the motion of his Learned Friend with his
most decided opposition._(Cries of hear, hear.)
Mr. D. W. HARVEY commenced hi? observations by
complaining of the inconsistency of the professional gen-
tlemen on the other side of the House, who now declared
that Biil to be utterly worthless and unavailing, which
they had feemerly praised as calculated to remove most of
the delays, and grievance's to which the unfortunate suitors
of Hen Court of Chancery were exposed. He wondered
what new light had beamed upon their understanding,
an made them see no importance in the various reruns-
anendations propose." by the Chancery Commissioners.—
..the whole mischief in the administration of the bankrupt
laws was now to he got rid of, not by legislative enact-
ments, but by a few regnlations to be made by Lord Lynd-
hurst, and the two learned personages who assisted him in
that Court. He damned it quite impossible that such a
crying grievance could be so removed; and he corrobo-
rated his opinion by reference to that of Lord Eldon.—
His (Mr. D. W. Harvey's) object wee not so much to dis-
sever bankruptcy frern the Great Seal, as to simplify the
administration of the bankrupt laws. The first thing
which he would have done would be to provide for the
publication of the bankrupt's insolvency at the very earli-
est period ; the next, to collect the resonant of his shat-
tered fortunes with as much celerity, and at as little ex-
pense, as was practicable ; the next, to divide that rem-
nant, as soon as collected, amonget his creditors; and the
last, to reward him with a small portion of the property
so recovered, wherever his insolvency had sprung out
of inevitable misfortune, and to punish him whenever it
had arisen from dishonesty or extravagance.—(Hear.)—
He did not wish to speak with disrespect of any one of the
72 gentlemen who now officiated as Commissioners of
Bankrupts; but he must say this, that a more incompetent
tribunal could not easily be imagined. It was his firm
belief, that what between capacity with inexperience on
the one hand, and experience with incapacity on the other,
there were not more than fire or six Commissioners out of
Z 2, who, were able to discharge their duty as they ought to
do. He wished that any of the Hon. Gentlemen opposite
Would go down to Guildhall, because he was certain that
they would see the necessity of supporting any measure
which tended to the removal of such a nuisance as the
existing teiburals in bankruptcy. There were 14 petty
courts, in each of which there were five Commissioners,
of whom three must necessarily attend to transact the bu-
siness. These Commissioners were not paid as they ought
to be, by pee rnarent and adequate salaries, but by fees aris-
ing from their ingenuity in making out business for them-
selves, to the injury of the bankrupts creditors. The
manner in which they ran after their fees—the impatience
with which they looked at their watches to provide against
their staving longer than their two hours, and the anxiety
with which they sought to pocket another guinea by de-
vising another meeting in Quality-coura was one of the
most disgusting scenes that any professional man could
witness.—(Hear, hear.)—lle had no hesitation in saying
that this mode of administering the law was not more
disgraceful to those engaged in it, than injurious to the
suitors whose property was at stake. There were gene-
rally twelve or thirteen causes under each list, and scarcely
any two of those causes arrived at the same stage. At one
moment the commissioners had before them a creditor try-
ing to prove a fraudulent debt; at aeether a bankrupt un-
dergoing his final examination ; and at a third another
bankrupt claiming his certificate. All these cases--different
and difficult as they were—were to be decided within two
short hours, amid the clamour of a court, where there was
no presiding judge, nor guiding rule.—(Hear, hear.)—He
did not know of any terms sufficiently strong to express his
abhorrence of so disgraceful a system. It had been said by
the Hon. cod Learned Gentleman who had been recently
exalted to the office of his Majesty's Attorney-General, that
no plan had yet been suggested. To cut away that argu-
ment from the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, he would ven-
ture to suggest the following plan :-_That instead of there
being sevenps.two judges, of whom one half were inexpe-
rienced from youth, and the other imbecile from age, there
should he five judges with liberal salaries, whose time
should be exclusively given up to adjudications in cases
of bankruptcy. Instead of there being fourteen courts,
with five judges in each, there should be five courts
with one judge in each. The bankrupt causes should be
brought under his notice individually, and so well were
the principles on which those canes were determined un-
derstood by commercial men, that he would venture to
affirm that there would very rarely be any appeal from the
decision of that individual Judge. In cues of appeal,
however, he should suggest that the appeal, instead of
being made to the Lord Chancellor should be made to three
out of five Commissioners; and then, if the parties were
still dissatisfied, should be from the three Commissioners to
the Lord Chancellor. Under such regulations he would
venture to predict that there would not be ten appeals in
the year.—(Hear,hear.)—lt would appear, from what had
fallen from his Majesty's Attorney-General, that in the en-
suing recess, the Noble Lord now at the head of the Court
of Chancery was to concoct a small neat system of bankrupt
laws which was to put an end to the ruinous expellee now
complained of; and was to devise some intelligible code of
official arrangement, by which all the clamours of the
country were to be stilled.—(Hear, hear.)—The Judge
was to be changed, but the practice of his Court osas to
remain almost unaltered, and all the splendid denunciations
which had thrilled through every bosom in that House and
the country, were only to be considered as party tactics,
and looked upon as the result of disappointed ambition.
—(Cries of hear, hear. )—Nosv:that the object of professional
advancement was obtained, those who had been most
loud in their attacks had become the eulogists of the late
Lord Chancellor's merits.—(Hear, hear.)—And the
House was now told, that if, in the vehemence of debate,
any thing had been said calculated to injure his character,
Amounted to nothing, and was only to be considered as the
accidental effusion of party spirit.—(Hear, hear, from the
°PP°'ite benches.)_ Suitors were now to he satisfied that
the Court would in future move on with the utmost cele-
rity and harmony ;:h that they would no longer have their
hopes withered—
forts destroyed by 4raprospects blasted—and their com-
forts
and expenses ; that they would
no longer be consigned Lremature grave, or entombed
alive in madness in NOMg --Clieers from the Opposi-
tiou.)-41 such were ttea cases et would be well to place a

couple of learned gentlemen at each end of Chancery-lane,
to point out to every passenger the road to the Court of
Chancery, and to proclaim in the streets that all its ways
were ways of pleasantness, and that all its paths were paths
of peace.—(Hear, hear.)—A greater insult than such a de-
claration could not easily be imagined. The abuses of the
Court of Chancery still reigned in all their pristine defor-
mity. The country was inclined to place confidence
in the new Government, and the new Government
ought therefore to recollect that much was expected
by the people from it. Though there were some
questions which might be deferred without injury to
the public interests, the present was not one.—(Hear,
hear.)—lt was his opinion that if the new Admi-
nistration had not been formed, he bill which the present
Lord Chancellor has introduced into that House, for the im-
provement of the Court of Chancery, would have been car-
ried by acclamation. But now that it was formed, Par-
liament was told that it was a useless measure,—that
scarcely one of its provisions was advantageous; that the
188 propositions of the report, which had 188 eulogists,
were to be abandoned; and that all that was necessary
to simplify the Court of Chancery was for the Lord Chan-
cellor to make certain regulations tinder which all expenses
and delays were to cease. If any man had a judgment so
weak as to place confidence in such a statement, he thought
that he ought to he placed forthwith under another branch
of the Lord Chancellor's jurisdiction,—he meant the juris-
diction in lunacy.—(A laugh.) The system, he repeated,
must be reformed.—(Hear, hear.) He held in his hand
at that moment a document which justified the House in
proceeding warily with professional reforms proposed by
professional men. It was a tabular view of the officers of
the Court of Chancery; from which it appeared, that out
of 393 officers belonging to that Court, all but 12 were in
the appointment of the Lord Chancellor. When such was
the case, he thought it was evident that gentlemen still en-
gaged in the active duties of the profession were not likely
to be the most impartial correctors of abuses. A commis-
sion of inquiry, to be thoroughly useful, should consist of
counsel and solicitors who had retired from business, and
who, by their experience and independence, would be able
to understand the bearing of the different grievances and
remedies which might be brought under their consideration.
Such a cemmission would have full employment in this
country for some time ; for sorry was he to say it, abuse
and law were in England synonymous terms.—(Cheering
and laughter.) The country, he repeated, was law-ridden.
—(Cheering and laughter continued.) He used the expres-
sion law-ridden advisedly : for what else could be said of a
country which had 6,000 certificated attornies, each of
whom, upon an average, received 1,0001. a year ?—(Hear,
hear.)—The House would see from that statement, that
6,000,0001. of money were annually expended in low.—
(Hear, hear.)—lf the Hon. and Learned Gentlemen haul
not changed their principles with their seats, they would
see that something more than a mere change of men was
expected in the Court of Chaneery. A change cf system
was also requisite ; and unless it was effected before long,
they would have nothing to congratulate either themselves
or the country upon in the ensuing Session of Parliament.
—(Cheers.)—The Hon. Member concluded by supporting
the motion.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL could not have sup-
posed that there was any man whose mind was so weak,
and whose judgment was so slender, as to believe that he
could have said that a change of men; and not of measures,
was all that was required to sweep away the abuses of the
present system of the Court of Chancery. He had not
said that a few regulations would sweep away those abuses,
nor had he said that the aid of the House of Commons
would not be asked to effect that desirable consummation.
—(Hear, hear.)—He had never thought of entering that
night into the general question of the Court of Chancery.
He had confined himself simply to the question before the
House, and that was—ought the business in bankruptcy
to he severed or not from the jurisdiction of the Great
Seal ?—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. G. BANKES denied that the Commissioners of
Bankrupt were young men without experience, or old men
without practice, or that they were appointed either from
Parliamentary influence, or from motives of charity. If
he opposed the motion of the Hon. Member for Durham,
it was solely in reference to the time at which it was
brought forward, and to the declaration of Lord Lyndhurst,
that he had in his breast several propositions for the
remedy of the grievances now existing in the Court of
Chancery. He wished that he could force an inquiry into
the charges which had been brought, not only against the
form of the tribunals in bankruptcy, but also into the man-
ner in which they were conducted.
Dr. LUSHINGTON would state at once, that he rose
to give his most decided negative to the present motion.
He knew that the existing system of Bankrupt Laws had
produced evils in the metropolis to an extent which it was
dv'plorable to describe. He knew that the Hon. Member
for Colchester had not exaggerated the fact, that not
merely hundreds, but thousands of individuals had been
reduced to ruin, not because there had not been pro-
perty to divide among them, but because it had been
wasted by the mal-administration of the law, which
had been prostituted to the basest of purposes.—(Hear,
hear, hear.)—He would never give up the opinion which
be had formed upon this question. He acceded to every
thing that had been said by the Honourable Member for
Peterborough; but he could not accede to what had fallen
from the Honourable Member for Colchester, who had said
that the commissioners protracted business at their different
meetings, in order to put money into their pockets. Such
was the evil, and such the iniquity of the present system,
that he defied the commissioners to do justice by all their
exertions. The Honourable Member for Colchester had
eeggested the erection of a Board of five Judges. Now
the Honourable Member must not be allowed to take the
credit of that suggestion to himself. It had been discussed
by the Chancery Commissioners : all the difficulties which
had occurred to the Commissioners had been put in the
shape of questions to the witnesses whom they examined,
in order to see whether they could or could not be ob.
viated ; and the reason why the Commissioners had not
made a Report on that subject, was because they were of
opinion—erroneously as he thought—that bankruptcy was
not one of the questions included in their commission. It
was also thought that the Commissioners ought to examine
how the tim of the Chancellor could he saved. He
thought that such a scheme would be abortive, and he
had nobody on his side but Sir Anthony Hart. With
regard to the administration of the Bankrupt Laws, he
knew that it was a pressing evil. If his Hon. and Learn-
ed Friend, the Member for Durham, would propose any
specific measure to reform the Administration of the bank-
rupt law, he would willingly support it; but to go into a
Committee of the whole House, to read the statute of
Queen Elizabeth, which not more than seven individuals
would understand when read, and to read subsequently the
other statutes in bankruptcy down to the present day, ap-
peared to him to be a practice as useless as any the hue-
gination of man could devise.—( !Lear, hear. )—lle thought
it was proper that the country should have some statereent,
in order that it might undergo discussion at present, and
be submitted to the House in the next Session of Parlia-
ment. He was convinced that nothing but legal enact-
ments could remedy the evil. It was therefore absurd to
expect that Lord Lyndhurst would devise a remedy for
that which nothing hut an Act of Parliament could re-
medy. He was of opinion that bankruptcy, in the last
resort, ought not to be taken from the Lord Chancellor.—
He was ready to wait till the next Session of Parliament ;
but when it came, it would be neeeeeary to lay on the
table of the House forthwith, plans to alter the Law of the
Court of Equity, and also that of real property, and when
those objects were attained by legal enactments, he enter-
tained hopes, though he had also doubts, that the three
Judges would despatch their business with all necessary
and requisite celerity. One thing above all others he de-
precated. He deprecated any attempt to diminish, without
due notice, the present number of arrears.—(Herr.)
Mr. BROUGHAM rose and addressed the Speaker :
Might I so far trespass on you as to beg you to read the
motion to the House?

The SPEAKER having read the motion,
Mr. BROUGHAM spoke as follows : I thought, from
the words of the motion of my Hon. and Learned Friend,
the Member for Durham, and I was persuaded by my re-
collection of the Speech with which he introduced it, that
his object in bringing this discussion at present before the
House was, to moot a point which he had often before
brought forward, namely, the propriety and expediency of
separating the Bankrupt Laws from the Great Seal. The
Motion embraced no scope greater, or went into no
wider field, and therefore I was not all surprised that
my Hon. and Learned Friend, the Attorney-General,should
have confined himself to the subject matter in hand. As
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had the misfortune
to differ from the Mover of the questions, he had
confined himself to the arguments by which he had sup-
ported his proposition. I was a little surprised, that as
soon as my Hon. and Learned Friend had taken his seat,
the Member for Colchester should go into observations
upon a question which, whatever its merits might be, was
certainly not the question then before the House. The
Bankrupt Laws may be of permanent importance—they
may require revision. The mechanism of the Bankrupt
Commissions may be extremely injudicious and cumbrous,
but this subject is not embraced in the proposition which
the Member for Durham had brought before the House.
It is exclusively this proposition on which I give my
opinion—it is this—shall the Bankruptcy Jurisdiction be
or be not taken from the Great Seal—shall the House,
with a view to consider this change in the Jurisdiction of

the Court of Chancery, or of the person presiding in that
Court, resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House
upon the Acts of Parliament which gave that Court that
particular jurisdiction ? This is the proposition which the
House is called on to consider. This is net an unim-
portant limitation of the debate, for the Hon. Member for
Colchester has deviated into remarks which can only, by
the most perverse ingenuity, be brought to bear upon what
has fallen from my Hon. and Learned Friend. I will
maintain, that it is not in the least inconsistent in my
Hon. and Learned Friend to vote against the separation
of the Bankrupt Cases from the Great Seal, although he
may have voted, on all former occasions, for the proposed
changes in the constitution of the Court of Chancery. Did
my Hon. and Learned Friend ever, on such occasion, give
his opinion that the Bankrupt Laws should be sspaiated
from the Great Seal ? He did not ; for that argument
was never mooted. I was told, in coming into the House,
that the most extraordinary change was observable in the
opinion's and principles of those who had moved from the
opposite to this side of the House—that we were now
against all changes in the Chancery Court, and were satis-
fied with every thing as it exists, although front theta had
been poured forth, when on the other side of the House,
torrents of fiery declamation against the proceedings of the
Court. Mask the fairness of this attack. The only
Member who had uttered a sentiment on the subject, when
this attack was made, was the Attorney-General. What
torrents of indignation had ever come from him, when on
the other side of the House, on the subject of the Chancery
Court—on the system of that Court—on the arrears
of business, or on what are commenly called Chancery
abuses? I do not recollect my Hon. and Learned Friend
ever having taken a part in these debates. I myself bore
on this question a most prominent pat t, but can I be
charged with inconsistency ? How did the Hon. Member
for Colchester, or anybody else, ascertain that my opinions
upon the subject are changed. As yet I have tittered no
opinion whatever. Have I been inconsistent on any other
subject? I call upon the Hon. Member for Colchester to
state on what measures of Government—on what chapter
of policy—on what affair of State—on what part of the
jurisprudence of the land have my opinions—my conduct—
or my language changed since 1 came to this side of the
House ? I demand who accuses use of changing my prin-
ciples. Let facts be stated openly. If there is a vi'', das-
tardly, contemptible mode in which slander can be lavish-
ed, it is the form which it assumes of paltry insinuations,
when it skulks from day, and will not advance an open de-
claration. Men may change sides in this House without
changing principles. Other men, peradventure, may fur-
nish examples of acting upon no very well defined princi-
ples, if they act upon any principles at all. If those who
have changed from that side of the House to this (a move-
ment which I know will never he forgiven by some
Gentlemen) do oppose this measure, be it recollected they
have never uttered an opinion upon the subject, or as yet
have come to any vote. The question of the severance of
the Bankruptiee from the Great Seal, has always been one-
upon which those who were most for reform in the Court
of Chancery were must doubtful. I, for one, never sup-
ported that measure. I concurred with my friends in the
House and out of the House, where my opinions stand re-
corded. I mean by my vote in the Committee on the
Court of Chancery, to which I had the honour of belong-
ing in 1811, that the Lord Chancellor should undertake
the Bankruptcies in the other jurisdiction of the Court. I
retained this opinion, and it is greatly strengthened by the
changes which have since taken place in that Court. I
should be acting contrary to the doctrines which I always
entertained, and flying in the face of opinions which I re-
peatedly and uniformly gave, if I did not oppose my Hon.
and Learned Friend's motion. My Hon. Friend in fair-
ness and candour will admit this when he calls to his re-
collection what has passed upon this subject. What was
my argument upon the constitution of the Vice-Chan-
cery Court ? My Honourable and Learned Friend had
said, " You see Lord Eldon is not to blame—no man
in his situation could get through the business." My an-
swer was—" is it so—if the business be increased since
the days of Lord Nottingham, Lord Hardwicke, Lord
Thurlow, and Lord Loughborough, the means of doing
business is also increased by the appointment of a Vice-
Chancellor." My present opinion is is . 7ollary from toy
former opinion. I said, you have never given the Vice-
Chancellor fair play. Instead of having an efficient Chan-
cellor, Vice-Chancellor, and Master of the Rolls, you have
always taken care, by appointing an unfit Master of the
Rolls, or an unfit Vice-Chancellor, to leave the Court
pretty nearly with the same means of doing business as it
possessed before. With respect to Sir Thomas Plower, in
1823 and in 1825, I spoke of bins with all possible re-
spect ; but if I said that he was able to do any consider-
able degree of Chancery business, 1 should have been fly-
ing in the face of what I knew to be the fact, and what
every member of the legal profession was able to contra-
dict. At that time you had not a Vice-Chancellor, but
only a Master of the Rolls and a Chancellor. Sir Thomas
Plower afterwar►ls succeeded Sir Wm. Grant, and a most
able Judge was appointed Vice-Chancellor. This remedied
the defect as to the Vice-Chancery Court. You had then
a Chancellor of great talents and learning, though not able
to go through business in a manner proportionate to his
intellect. I repeat the praise of Lord Eldon, and will not
be deterred because another artist has taken up the trowel.
Lord Eldon was then at the head of the Court of Chan-
cery, and you had a most efficient Vice-Chancellor in Sir
John Leach, but had you then an efficient Judge to suc-
ceed the Master of the Rolls ? No such thing. I say that
the office of Master of the Rolls was not efficiently filled
up upon the resignation of that Right Hon. Gentleman.—
This opinion I pronounced upon all former occasions, and
to this opinion I still adhere. After this retirement of Sir
Wm. Grant's successor, a Noble and Learned Lord, since
dead, was appointed to fill his place. To the appointment
of that Hon. and Learned Gentleman, I objected in his
lifetime, but now, that he is no more, I shall not dwell
much upon kis unfitness fur such an office. But this I
must say of him (the late Lord Gifford), because justice to
his memory demands it, that lie was a man, who in pri-
vate life, possessed the most amiable, the most endearing,
and the most honourable qualities—(Lear, hear;)—that
he possessed great legal talents and acquirements—talents
which, had he been allowed to remain in the Court where
he originally practised, would have adorned that Court.
But he had been suddenly, and, I may say rudely, trans-
lated from that Court into a situation, in which his ta-
lents, great as I admit them to he, could not be put In
competition with those of Sir William Grant, or of the
present Vice-Chancellor, as an Equity Judge. Now, these
have been my arguments upon all former occasions, and,
Sir, it will not do to tell me of any admission that the
system is in fault, when my complaint has uniformly been
against the men.—(Hear, hear, hear.)—l say, let us give
the Vice-Chancellor's Court fair play, let us try what can
be done in it when ably presided over, and when left un-
fettered, and if we do not then find that it answers the end
proposed, in the name of God let us alter it.—(Hear,
hear.)—Mr. Shadwell, in his evidence, stated to the Com-
mission, that not only three men could not, but even three
angels could not dispose of the business of the Court of
Chancery. Now, Sir, without at all doubting that Learned
Gentleman's accuracy upon the point, I feel inclined to think
that Angels, like Gods, ought not to be called in to
untie a knot unworthy of them, but we should first try
what could be effected by sublunary Judges. For myself,
1 nmst confess, that I think it would be the wisest way first
to try what mere flesh and blood can do, before we resort
to such celestial aid. Let us, I say, try what three honest
and efficient men can-do; and if they fail, if you shall find
them insufficient to discharge the duties, then, in God's
name, appoint other Judges in addition to them. What do
Honourable Members want of me beyond this assertion ? Is
it pretended to be asserted that my opinions ripest the sub-
ject have changed ? I say, Sir, that there exists not the
slightest ground for• any such assertion.—(Hear, hear.)_
What I hare declared to-night, I have uniformly declared
upon every occasion when the question has been brought
under discussion, and I am sure that ray Honourable and
Learned Friend, the Member for Durham (Mr. M. A.
Taylor), and my Honourable Friend the Member for Tre-
gony (Dr. Lushington), will do me the justice to recollect
that such has always been my line of argument. I say, Sir,
that we have now, for the first time, an opportunity of try-
ing the efficacy of the Bill appointing the Vice-Chancellor's
Court; you have nosy an opportunity of learning how far
three able and efficient Equity Judges are capable of
properly discharging the business of the Court of Chan-
cery.—(Hear, hear. ).—And first, I must observe of the pre-
sent Master of the Rolls, that whatever may he said in praise
of him, must, be it ever so ample, be altogether inadequate
to his great merits.—(Hear.)---I say, Sir, that his conduct,
during the whole of his official duties, not only gave im-
plicit satisfaction, but was of a nature calculated to excite
wonder bordering on disbelief.—(Cheers.)—We have all
witnessed the exertions of that Right lion. and Learned
Gentleman while labouring under the most severe bodily
distress—exertions exciting the highest admiration in the
minds of those best capable of appreciating them.—(Hear,
hear, hear.)—lf, then, that Right Honourable Gentleman
made such praiseworthy exertions (hiring a period of ill
health, surely we have a right to presume that new that
he is (and I am happy to think that he is) nearly restored,
that he will make equal exertions in the discharge of the
dirties of Master of the Rolls. Of Sir Anthony Hart I
may speak, seeing that I do so in the presence of his
friends. The late Attorney-General (Sir C. Wetherell)
whom I see on the other side, is one of the oldest colleagues
of that Gentleman in the Court of Chancery, and, of course,
knows that he (Mr. Hart) has, from his length of experience

and his extensive practice, brought to his present office
such a great knowledge of law, and of the general practice
of the Court of Chancery, as might well compensate for the
absence of other great abilities, of which, however, he has
no want. Does any man doubt that the present Lord
Chancellor, although not educated in the Court of Chan-
cery—a circumstance which I admit, and which, in ad
mitting, I must also regret—does any man doubt that that
Noble Lord, bringing as he does, to the consideration of
that Court, his strong and manly and independent mind;
bringing also his great knowledge of law, and that wonder-
ful power of simplifying business, peculiar to him ; I am
now speaking from my own personal knowledge, derived
from long practice, both with him and against him, par-
ticularly in cases of Appeal—and I say, that I never met a
man (to use an observation made upon him in Westminster-
hall) so perfectly dexterous in splitting the hush and getting
at the kernel, as the Noble Lord ;—Doca any man doubt
then, I ask, that that the Noble Lord, with such qualifi-
cations, will not sufficiently discharge his present duties ?
--(Hear, hear, hear.)—l now, Sir, come to say a few
words of that profession which, it appears, is at present to
be alluded to only to be ridiculed. We have been told
by the Hon. Member for Colchester that that profession
has! its honour tarnished—that its Members were guilty of
tergiversation—that they were slippery—that they were a
turning, shuffling, backsliding set—that they were guilty
of breach of faith—that they were untrustworthy ; in a
word, that there was no faith or confidence to be placed
upon them. Now, notwithstanding these denunciations,
I feel pride and pleasure in stating, that I have the honour
of belonging to that renowned profession—(Loud cries of
hear, hear. )—I eat:, Sir, if you are to take the character of
that high and honourable profession from book-makers,
magazine writers and sentence-makers, and paragraph-
mongers, and the thousand other scribblers of this descrip-
tion, then such will be the description given of it—(Cheers
and laughter. )—I have already admitted that the present
Lord Chancellor had practised Common Law in Westmin-
ster Hall, but there be had been distinguished for the clear-
ness and comprehensiveness of his views, and for the
very great saving of time which that clearness and
comprehensiveness made to the Court. This, Sir,
is the Noble Lord's character ; and it is one which
will amply make up for his only defect. In using
the word defect, I feel that it is the Noble Lord's
misfortune, not his fault, that he has not been edu-
cated in the Court of Chancery; but that the qualities I
have described will fully compensate fur this deficiency
I entertain the most sanguine expectations—(Cheers.)—
Well, then, these are the grounds upon which I rest my
confidence in the Court for the present ; but in saying
this, do I assert that Bankruptcies are to be attached to
the Great Seal irrevocably ? Do I state that they are to
he interminably united, for better for worse ? Sir, I
make no such assertion. All I say is, let us wait for one
year. Let us give a fair and reasonable opportunity for
the exertions of the three Equity Judges, who are now
for the first time in a situation to give fair play to the
existing system of the Courts of Equity. We have been
given to understand that my Hon. Friend the Attorney-
General has proposed to introduce a salutary alteration in
a department of the Court where it was most grievously
needed—l mean the endless system which governed the
taking of affidavits. As at present arranged, the files of
the Court are groaning under their weight, whilst the
suitors are groaning still more piteously, for theirs is
the pressure caused by the weight of gold which they,
have lost. All this will, I trust, be set aside by the ar-
rangements of my Hon. and Learned Friend, who pro-
poses to fix certain days beyond which affidavits on the one
side and on the other are not to be received ; a rule which
is not to be departed from but in uses of the most urgent
necessity. All this may appear as trifling as did the prin-
ciple upon which Columbus made the egg stand on one
end, but the result will, I hope, turn out in the end to be
of as much importance in Equity, as were the discoveries
of that great and enterprising man in navigation.—(fear,
hear.) I say the present judges are men who wish to be
Judiccs a Judicando, and not Judices nose Judicando.
I say, too, that before we had only two Judges, and that
now we have three efficient ones. Let us give those three
Judges but a fair trial ; and if at the end of the veer it shall
he found that the abuses complained of are not remedied,
I for one shall be ready to agree with my Hon. and Lear-
ned Friend', the Members for Durham and Tregony, in
thinking that the case is hopeless ; and shall then, but
not till then, be ready to join with them in supporting the
measures now proposed.—(Hear, hear.) Before I sit
down, I feel called upon to say a few words, in answer to
what has been stated in this House with respect to the con-
duct oflawyers. And first, I think, I may as well as others,
state that I entertain—l do not wish to use an upper-
liamentary expression, and therefore I will not say feelings
of unmingled contempt ; but I may say, feelings of uu-
tunsgseasaeoljefeeenee for those observations. Personally, I
disclaim them ; they were not meant for, nor can they
ap-
ply to rue.—(Cheers.)—But when I see an attempt made
to impeach the high character and untarnished honour of
my Hon. and Learned Friend (the Attorney-General) be-
low me—(Hear, hear, hear !)—I, who hare known him in
public and in private for the last quarter of a century, feel
called upon to cast heck the imputation with the feeling
which it deserves.—(Hear, hear.)—Sir, every man who
has hail the pleasure of knowing my Hon. and Learned
Friend ; every friend of his—and he has the satisfaction of
line-mg many who are proud of that title—agrees in ac-
knowledging his great excellence; from his enemies (for
even he has enemies) has been wrung the acknowledgment
which I heartily delight to join in, in favour of his great
abilities, high character, and undeviating consistency through
life.—(Cheers.)—Long may my Hon. Friend hold the situa-
tion which he at present fills ! But be he placed as he may,
be will still hold his present title to the esteem and regard of
hie friends, and must look down with contempt upon those
who attempt to assail him.—(llear.) My Hon. and Learned
Friend, though long at the head of his profession, has led
a life of seclusion ; he has not sought for power ; his abili-
ties have been always exerted in the most honourable and
successful manner, but still he has been excluded from
those honours and preferments to which he has been long
and justly entitled—and why? Because he never did, and
never would, condescend to abate one iota of his political
principles.—(Cheers.)—l have repeatedly heard it used as
a kind of household phrase—a phrase that was said to be
in every man's mouth, that the law was a low and de-
graded profession. What !is the profession from which
the Judges of the Land, the expounders of law and justice
are chosen, to be thus held up to the country ? Sir, I
deny the unfair and unfounded assertion.—(Hear, hear.)
—I will tell the Hors. Gentleman who makes this assertion
that the greatest men of this country, in its best days, have
felt proud to bold a fellowship with lawyers.—(Hear,
hear.)--Nay more, I will tell them that to lawyers are
owing many of the most valuable liberties of England.—
(Cheers.)—Am Ito go back to history in support of this
assertion ? This House must be aware that Sir E. Coke
—a name which was said to be rather law itself than con-
nected with law, as the manse of Tully was said to be elo •
quence rather then connected with eloquence—that gieat
and Learned Judge, after having filled the highest
judicial situations, descended from the Bench and took
his seat upon the Opposition Bench, where my Hon. and
Learned Friend now sits. That great man was followed
by Maynard, by Lord Somers; and after the Revolution,
by the Yorkes, the Talbots, and the Finches. Amongst
whom, there were shades of difference, to which I, as a
Whig, could not reconcile myself ; yet, I say, that to these
men England owes a debt of obligations which she never
can repay. Ain I to come further down? Further I
need not go; but I shall allude to the celebrated names of
Glynn, and Romilly, and Pigott—men who lived in our
own times—whom we had the happiness to know, and
under whom we were most proud and happy to have the
honour of serving.—(Hear, hear.)—Men, too, be it ob-
served, who conferred the most essential benefits upon
their country.—(Cheers,)—Sir, when I hear gibes and
imputations cast upon a profession which has produced
such men, I can scarcely help thinking that they corns
from those only who are in a situation to be transplanted
into the hot beds of corruption—(Hear, hear,)—and who
are unfit to harbour any pure and disinterested idea. I de-
clare this aspersion upon the law, and through it upon the
Bench, to be as vulgar, gross, sordid, mean, ignorant,
and unfounded a calumny, as ever was hatched in any quar-
ter.—(Loud cries of " hear, hear, hear.").—l have said so
much in answer to what has been said by Hon. Gentlemen
on the other side. I feel that the character of a public
man is matter of public concernment, but I also feel that
when my friend (the Attorney-General's) character is un-
justly assailed—when even his distinguished name and un-
blemished honour are made matter of public attack, it be-
comes, on my part, a matter rather of public than of pri-
vate duty, to pay the humble but honest tribute of my
testimony to its merits.—(Cheers.)
Mr. M. ANGELO TAYLOR replied.
The House then divided—
For the motion • 37
Against it 134

Majority
COVENTRY MAGISTRACY.

Six J. WROTTESLEY rose to move for leave to bring
in a Bill to give concurrent jurisdiction to the Magistrates
of Warwickshire in the city of Coventry. The Hai Ba-
ronet proceeded to read some of the evidence produced on
the Coventry Election Committee, to show the nature of
the violence which had been used. Some laughter was ex-
cited wiwn the lion. Baronet came to that part of the evi-
dence which described that one voter had been tarred and

feathered, and that another had had the *than; of a steep
stuffed down his throat. The Hon. Baronet said that at
present be should move, in obedience to the instructions of
the Committee, for leave to bring in a Bill to give the Ma-
gistrates of Warwick a concurrent jurisdiction with the
Magistrates of the city and county of Coventry,
_ . _

Mr. WARD trusted that the Hotße urotM deal with
this matter according to the motion of the Hon 0. Baronet.
Lord W. RUSSELL thought the measure h ardly strong
enough.
On the motion being put,

Mr. R. HEATHCOTE rose, and after observing upon
the unpleasant situation in which he found hit nself, said
that he would not fellow the example of the Hon.. Baronet
in going through the evidence, but, taking it as it stood, he
would contend that the evidence being equally cr edible on
both sides, a case might be made out on whichever side it
was required. He believed that one-half of the witnesses
would have been committed for prevarication if they had
been examined in any Court of Justice ; and he was sure
that no contested election could have been condo eted with
more tranquillity, or with less personal violence, than the
late election at Coventry. With respect to the A Eeyor, who
had been the subject of so much animadversion, he would
venture to say that a more respectable man in his station of
life could not be found. He conceived it would not be just
to inflict a stigma on 30,000 persons, who were free-
holders of Coventry, for the improper conduct of two or
three persons.
_ _

Mr. FYLER declared unequivoczdly, and npon, his ho-
nour, that he had not received one farthing. from the Cor-
poration of Coventry, either before the election, or after the
presentation of the petition which followed that election.
He thought it would be an act of the greatest injustice to
punish the magistrites of Coventry„withont giving them
the means to 'defend themselves. If they committed
wrong, the laws of the country ought to be applied to.
Mr. PEEL was favourable to the primeiples of the Bill
which the worthy Baronet intended to introduce. He
would not, however, pledge himself to give the measure his
future support, unless be Wa3 fuhy satisfied in his own
mind that the facts stated to-night could be fully borne out
by evidence. The final opinion of. the House on the mea-
sure of the worthy Baronet must, in a great measure, de-
pend on the decision of the committee appointed to try the
Coventry election ; and he advised t'ee House to withhold
any opinion on the Bill until the evidence taken before that
committee were examined.—(Hear.)

Mr. S. BOURNE said that the case had already under-
gone a full investigation, and it would therefore be only oc-
cupying the attention of the House to no purpose to have
the evidence examined.

After a few words from Mr. 11. GURNEY, leave was
given to bring in the Bill.

SAVINGS BANKS.

Mr. C. PALLMER moved for leave to bring in a Bill to
consolidate and amend the laws relating to Saving Banks.
Mr. HENLEY EDEN obtainel leave to bring in a Bill
to amend the Bankrupt Act.
Mr. GEORGE BANKES postponed until this day, his
motion for leave to bring in a Bill to relieve Roman Ca-
tholics from a double assessment of the land-tar.
Lord J. RUSSELL moved for a return of criminals
convicted within the last year in England and Wales.—
Oldered.

The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and
the House adjourned at a Quarter-past One o'Clock.

PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDINGS.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
NOfICES OF MOTIONS FOR THIS DA.V.

1. Mr. Solicitor-General—Bill to prohibit Arrests on
Mesne Process for Debt under 201.
2. Lord Viscount Althorpe—Bill for registration of Free-
holders in En:land ac.:' Walss.
3. Mr. Vesey FitzGerald—To present Petitions respect-
ing Grand Jury Presentments.
4. Mr. George Bankes—Bill to relieve certain persons pro-
fessing the Roman Catholic Faith from double Assess-
ment of the Land Tax.

ORDERS OF THE DAY FOR THIS DAY.
1. Constables Presentments Bill—Sesond reading-.
2. Dissenters' Marriages Bill—Second reading.
3. General Turnpike Act Amendment Bill—Further con-
sideration of Report.
4. Larceny Laws Consolidation Bill—Committee.
5. Remedies against the Hundred Bill—Further consider-
ation of Report.
6. Malicious Injuries Bill—Further consideration or Re.
port.

7. Larceny Laws Repeal Bill Further consideration of
Report.
S. Criminal Justiceßill—Further consideration of Report.
9. Supply—Committee.
10. Ways and Means—Committee.
11. Grahame's Divorce Bill—Report.
12. Foundlings (Ireland) Bill—Committee.

NOTICES GIVEN YESTERDAY.
Thursday, May 24,
1. Mr. Henry Grattan—To move for Returns from the
Commissioners of the Paving Board, Dublin ; also,
from the Commissioners of Wido Streets, Dublin ;
also, from the Courts of King's Bench, Common Pleas,
and Exchequer, in Ireland.
2. Mr. Moore—To bring under the considetation of the
House the Petition of the Mechanical Operative
Classes of the City, liberties, and vicinity of Dublin
(presented 12th April), and praying the establish-
ment of a Loan Fund.
Friday, May 25.
Mr. Secretary Sturges Bourne—Bill to amend the Gene-
ral Penitentiary Act.
Thursday, May 31.
Mr. Hume—Bill to repeal Act 60 Geo. 3, c. 9, subject-
ing certain publications to the Duties of Stamps on
Newspapers.

SHIPPING INTELLIGENCE-(THIS DAY.)

FROM LLOYD'S.

DEAL, MAY 22.—. Wind S.W.—Arrived the Rosehill,
from Jamaica ; Margaret, Westwood, from London ;
Sotheby, from China; Prince Regent, Hosmar, from Ben-
gal; Anna Robertson, Johnson, from ditto; Orwell, —,
from China ; Wildman, from the South Seas ; George
Canning, Braniteil, from St. Domingo.--Arrived from
London the Eliza, Sutton, for Bengal ; Walworth Castle,
Legg, for 'ditto ; Charles Brook, for St. Vincent's; Sal-
town, for Madeira ; Dorothea, Cuff, for Grenada ; and
Katharine Stewart, Forbes, Chapman,. for Bombay,..._
The Fairlie, from India, is expected this evening.
PORTSMOUTH, MAY 22.—Wind W.S.W.—The Han-
nah, Robertson, passed from Calcutta ; sailed from thence
Jan. 6, from the Cape March 17, and from St. Helena
April 1. The Atlas wes at the Cape, and was to sail in
five days for Bombay. The Britannia sailed the same day
from the Cape, for London. The Mermaid and City of
Edinburgh were at the Cape repairing damage ; the former
would be ready in ten days to sail for London. The
Valleyfield, Johnson, sailed on the 16th of March, for
London. The Aurora, Earl, passed this morning from
Calcutta ; left there Dec. 30, Madras Jan. 23, and St.
Helena April 27. Also passed, the Fairlie, from Bengal.

FA LMOUTU, MAY 22.—Wind variable.—Sailed, the
Prudence, Eloise, Santa Martha, and Sandwich packet,
for Lisbon ; Lord Hobart packet, for the Leeward Islands;
and the Dove packet, for Buenos Ayres.

The Ocean, Grubb, from Riga to Montrose, was on
shore near Rattrap Head on the 18th inst., but was ex-
pected to be got off.
The Monmouth, from Shicids to Bengal, is lost on the
Coast of Arracan.

The St• Laurence, 111‘Dougal, from Greenock to Bay
Chaleur, was carried into Loughswilly on the 14th inst.,
with eight feet water in her hold.

THE MARKETS.-(THIS DAY.)

CORN-EXCUANGE.
The arrivals of English Grain this week are very moderate,
and of Foreign Oats there is another good supply. Wheat re.
mains very dull in sale at the decline reported on Monday. Bar-
ley is so extremely scarce, that 41s. per quarter has been given
for a small grinding parcel this morning. Beans and Pease are
unaltered. Oats find so dull a sale, that they are expected to go
rather lower, the quantity of Foreign Feed Oats being so consi-
derable. No alteration in Flour.

ARRIVALS.
I Wheat. Barley.
English
Irish -
Foreign i 2,050

Oats. Flour.
1,300 qrs. I,2soscks.

1,600 1 20,100

FISH-MARKET, BILLINGSGATE.

The supply of fish at this day's market was rather short,
but more especially of the finer descriptions.—There was
no fresh Salmon in the market. Turbots sold high, the
prices were from 10s. to 255. each, according to size and
quality ; Mullets from 245. to 30s. per dozen ; good sized
Brill, 4d. each ; fine Whitings, 6s. per basket; Eels, per
five lbs. 3s. 6d. ; Mackerel not over plentiful, the prices
were from 48s. to 725. er hundred ; fine Guards, 20s.
per hundred. Lobsters were rather numerous, they sold
from 105. to 255. per score; Crabs of large size, 2s. 61.
each ; Prawns, 3s. to 4s. per 16. ; Shrimps, 2s. 6d. per
gallon. There were no Soles in the market worthy of notice.
In the prices of other fish no alteration.