The Sun.
London, England, 1845-07-31 00:00:00

PROPERTY-TAX.

Mr. J. FIELDEN wished to call the attention of the House
to the treatment which he and others had received under the
Property-tax Act. The firm to which he belonged had been
assessed at too peat an amount. They had made application
to the Commissioners, and, after a great deal of trouble, they
at last agreed to revise the assessment, and it was reduced from
24,0001. to 12,0001. This, however, was not a just assess-
ment, for it was notorious that the trade had not been in a
flourishing condition ; and he was willing to produce the books
of the firm, and to certify to their correctness on oath, to show
that the profits of the business were not 'sufficient to warrant
the assessment he had alltu!ed to. He had tried almost
every practicable means to get redress without success—as a
last resource he brought the matter before the House. It ap-
peared to him that the Commissioners acted in direct opposition
to the common law maxim, that every wrong had its remedy.
The Board could assess at whatever amount they pleased, and
this amount must be paid without the possibility of an appeal,
except to the Board itself. He had sworn that the amount at
which he bad been assessed was unjust, and, in consequence, he
was now threatened with a process to be levied on his goods.
The Hon. Member then moved for the returns of the Property-
tax Act, together with all correspondence on the sulject.
Mr. WILLIAMS complained that the assessment was
unduly and unfairly levied, and he was glad that his Hon.
Friend (Mr. Fielden) had brought forward the motion, and
that he was in a position, without any discredit to himself or
the powerful firm to which be belonged, to do that which hun-
dreds and thousands of others dare not attempt, lest their most
material interests should suffer by exposing an injustice which,
nevertheless, deeply affected them. ,

- .
On the motion being put by the SPEAKER,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that he
wished to make a few observations, and, in the first place,
to state that, from his experience, he was satisfied that there
was none of that indisposition to complain which the Hon.
Gentleman had stated, nor did he believe that there was that
degree of injustice which was alleged against it. The mode of
operation of the income-tax was this :—The Commissioners
levied what, from the return made to them by the individuals in
question, appeared to them to be just. Should the individuals
feel oppressed by the amount charged upon them, they might
appeal either to the General Commissioners or to the Special
Commissioners appointed for the purpose, and with whom
every secresy respecting the private transactions of individuals
was safe. Now, the Hon. Gentleman complained that under
the final court of appeal his goods had been levied upon. Such,
doubtless, had been the case, but it should be remembered that

it was the absolute and defined duty of the Court of Exchequer
to act upon the results which had been placed before them. In
their public capacity they had no alternative, and were bound
to follow out the rules laid down for their conduct. He was
aware that it was a very delicate matter to inquire into the
profits resulting from trade. It should be remembered that the
very fact of trade being carried on was a prima facie evidence
that profits were obtained. He was the last man in
the world to throw anything like discredit on the representa-
tions or veracity of the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Fielders); but
he could not help thinking that this unpleasantry had arisen in
conseqUence of the refusal of the firm to give such explanations
as the court of appeal had required. The main cause, no doubt,
was the different way in which the stock had been valued.
This resulted, so far as he could understand from extensive
inquiries, from a large stock of cotton which had been pur-
chased some years before being valued at a loss. Had that cot •
ton been valued at the end of 1841, instead of 1842, a very
different figure would have been put upon it. If, there-
fore, gentlemen appointed to make this investigation saw before
them the fact that the stock, which bore a large intrinsic value,
had been put at a very low rate, he did nut see how they could
do otherwise than decide against the party making the appeal,
and he really thought that if the Hon. Gentleman had shown
a little less of that British feeling which resists with more than
usual pertinacity the inquiry into his private affairs, none of
this would have occurred.

Mr. J. FIELDEN said, that so far from having refused to
give explanation, he had given every explanation, and bad even
offered his books for investigation. But, on the imposition of
the tax the second year, he had applied to the Government Corn.
missioner, and then it was that, for the first time, he learned
that he had been returned into the Exchequer, and that the
sheriff would levy on his goods. The other five local Commis-
sioners were all in the same business as himself, and all of whom
well knew what the circumstancess of that business were,
had been parties to this levy, and he had obtained no relief.
Mr. HAWES said that he thought this a fair case for in-
quiry. He had always opposed this tax ; and here was an in-
stance of the flagrant unfairness of the Act under which
this levy was made. The Hon. Gentleman had gone before the
Commissioners and made his appeal, and what was the result?
Why, without any reason whatever, without any further
information, although the Hon. Gentleman had offend his
books for investigation, they had voluntarily. without any
reason, reduced the assessment from 24,000/. to 12,0001. If
the former sum was right, why did net the Commissioners
adhere to it? Why did they not examine his books? It might
not be of any consequence to the Hon. Gentleman, who was
reported to be a man of property, in this instance, for
every body knew his wealth, but it might be of very serious
importance to an individual of less standing to state for two or
three years together the losses which he had sustained. It was
a monstrous thing that neighbours should be sitting in secret
conclave on their neighbour's affairs, and he thought, therefore,
that another tribunal ought to be instituted to which all might
appeal. The House clearly could not investigate the circum-
stances of every case, and he therefore felt assured that this was
a fair case for inquiry.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had no more
power to compel the produmion of the papers than the Hon.
Gentleman himself (Mr. Hawes). He would be told that be
was a very impertinent fellk,w if he attempted to do so.
Mr. BERNAL said if the Government wished to
alleviate the odium consequent on this tax, they should
take such steps as suggested themselves to well-regu-
lated minds as best adapted for that purpose.—( Hear. )
He hoped they would take this unpopular tax, as well as the
mode in which it was collected, into their consideration during
the recess, and if they did he was quite sure they would be able
to find out other sources of taxation to meet the exigencies of the
country, and other modes of collection, by which such com-
plaints as that brought forward by the Hon. Member for Old-
ham would be entirely removed.

Mr. HUME said that the Land-tax Commissioners were all
appointed by that House, and were therefore merely political
nominees, who were totally irresponsible to the Government.
They were merely political agents selected by party spirit. He
objected to their having anything to do with the income-tax
at the time the Bill was before the House. And the
Government might recollect the paltry excuse which
they offered, that the Bill was only for a short time, and that
the power would cease after a very limited period. Could
anything be more disgraceful than the conduct adopted
in the Tower Hamlets ? The Chancellor of the -Ex-
chequer said he had no power in the matter, and
it appeared to be without remedy. He attributed the treat-
ment of the Hon. Member for Oldham to a political grudge.
He hoped, however, the Government would take the matter
into their consideration, and if the tax was to be a per-
petual one (as he had no other expectation), that
measures would be devised during the recess to change the
whole system.
Sir R. PEEL thought it extremely unfair to find fault with
the Government with respect to the Land Commissioners. The
Act of Parliament appointing them bad far different objects in
view than an income-tax. They took them as they found
them. They were the best machinery they could get without
creating new officers, and were selected as being more likely
than any other body, to give satisfaction to the country,
and to prevent any jealousy that might arise if the Go-
vernment had taken the matter into its own bands.

With regard to the assertion of the Hon. Member (Mr.
flume) that the Land Commissioners who had levied a distress
on Mr. Fielden's property were actuated by political feclings in
the course they took, he could not believe that any person hold-
ing such an office could be actuated by such unworthy motives.
Mr. BROTHERTON said, when they considered that the
Laud Commissioners were appointed through the instru-
mentality of Members of Parliament, the statement of the
Hon. Baronet that they could not be actuated by political
motives could not hold good, as these persons too frequently
held the opinions of those by whom they were appointed to
their cffices. When it was considered that Messrs. Fielden
and Co. had lost large sums of money in their business, it
must be evident that they were not liable for the income-tax.
Captain PECHELL hoped that the motion would lead to
irquiries into other cases equally as severe, and cited the case
of Mrs. Shuttlewood, a poor widow, with an income under
1501., who owed three years' rent, but who, though in dificul-

ties, was compelled to pa:, the income-tax.
Mr. FIELDEN replied, and said he would not divide the
House if the Government would consent to the returns he had
moved for.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER consented to
do so and the subject dropped.
RAILWAY ACCIDENTS.

Mr. BERNAL called the attention of the Government to
the late railway accidents, particularly to that on the South-
Eastern Railway. The train after the accident was detained
full six minutes by the clerks and cheque-takers in collecting
tickets, though many of the persons in the train were suffering
from the severe contusions which they had received. Of late,
railway accidents had been very frequent, especially to the mail
trains on the London and Birmingham Railway. He wished
to know what steps the Government had taken with respect to
the accidents to which he had alluded, and whether steps would
be taken to ensure more safety to those who travelled by rail-
ways?
Sir G. CLERK said that an officer had been dispatched
to inquire into tise accidents to which the Hon. Gentleman had
referred. The Government had taken steps to insure a report
in all cases of accidents or loss of life on railways immediately
on their occurrence.—( Hear, hear.) As yet they had not re-
ceived any official statement with regard to the accidents, al-
though they had seen accounts of them in the public prints.
He was bound to state that when the offic'al report was re-
ceived, that it would be fully considered by the Board of Trade,
with the view of affording better security to the public.
Mr. CLIVE considered that the late serious accident on the
South-Eastern Railway had resulted through gross carelessness.
Mr. P. HOWARD trusted that the active supervision of
the Legislature would be exerci=ed over railways, that such
dreadful accidents might be prevented for the future,
and that, in the next session of Parliament, his
recommendation might be carried into effect. The
way in which the Brussels and Antwerp Railway was managed
showed to demonstration that it was possible to prevent acci-
dent. Surely the engineers of this country were equal to those
of the Continent. He hoped that Hon. Gentlemen connected
with railways would take the subject into their consideration,
as they were surely as fully competent to manage their railways
u their neighbours of the Continent.
Sir R. PEEL said he certainly was not sorry that the Hon.

Gentleman had called the attention of the House to the
subject, especially, as at present, they had no means of
reaching those who were really the responsible parties.
The . responsibility which attached to those connected
with the management of railways was at present in-
sufficient to ensure the safety of the public; He hoped,
then, that Parliament would insist that better security
should be given to the public by railway companies. It was
ne argument to say that there were a number of accidents
occasioned by stage coaches. They had a right to demand
that large companies should give greater security against
accidents than they had hitherto given. Occurrrences of the
nature alluded to had a most injurious effect on the public
mind, especially at the present moment, when railways were
growing into greater favour than before. He beliesed that
many accidents which had occurred on railways might have
been prevented, and might be prevented, by proper caution.
These accidents followed from not having proper arrangements,
and the competition which hid induced such rapid travelling
on these lines. He thought that due protection should be
given to the puhlic, even if it led to a reduction of profits.
Nothing could be so fatal to railway undertakings, and to the
interests of their proprietors, as any course that would destroy
the confidence • of the .pehtk in the safety of this mode of
travelling. • -
Mr. HUME said he would go further than the Right Hon.
Baronet. Those who undertook a certain amount of work in
matters that did not involve the loss of life were found to
execute it, and, surely, in the more important matters that in-
volved the lives of her Majesty's subjects, at least the same rule
should be enjoined. Parliament was entrusted with
certain powers, and they ought to enforce them for the
protection of the public. He was glad to hear that the
Right Hon. Baronet opposite was to take the matter into con-
sideration next session. He objected going into Committee at
that hour of the day, when such an important matter as voting
aa ay the public money was concerned. It was a bad principle,
and one, he believed, without precedent.
The SPEAKER—There is one precedent for it.
The Hoe. MEMBER proceeded to say—He had, on
former occasions, when he took a more active part in
the business of the House, objected always to the course
of bringing the estimates on after twelve o'clock at night, and he
had been successful in getting that practice abondoned. 'I he
vote ought only to be taken when there was something like a
House and when it was convenient for Members to be present.
He considered some arrangement might be come to, by which
the necessity of bringing on the estimates at unseasonable
hours would be avoided. He thought that Tuesday and
Thursday night might be set apart for those who had
independent motions, Monday and Friday could be set apart fuer
Government business, and or, Wednesday they might meet at
twelve o'clock to settle private Bills and business of minor im-
portance, so as to separate at six o'clock. This would leave the
evening at the discretion of Members. In meeting at twelve
o'clock, it should be arranged for no Committees to sit on that
day. He was sure.that by this means much more business could
Ise got through than at present. Members by such a course would
have a holiday at least one day in the week, and the Right Hon.
Baronet and his colleagues, who so assiduously attended to the
duties of their office, be allowed some relaxation from the
fatigues of business.

Sir R. PEEL said the present session had been a very pecu-
liar one, from the great amount of private business. The calls
on the time and attention of Hon. Members bad consequently
been very hard.—( Hear, hear.) So far as the Government
was concerned there had not been any disposition to delay the
House, but the contrary. Very early in the session he intro-
duced the Income-tax Bill and the question of the tariff; also
his general financial statement. All this was done to facilitate
business ; and he must say, that as far as other Hon. Members
were concerned, there had been no factious opposition shown to
the measures of the Government. With respect to the ques-
tion referred to by the Honourable Member, he thought that
the proposition of meeting at twelve and rising at half-past six
on Wednesdays a very judicious one. Sitting in that House
for five continuous nights was far too much, arid any arrange-
ment to alter it he would very gladly support. Members
ought not to be called on to sit every day for the five days the
length of fourteen hours per day. Means should also be taken
to bring about an earlier termination of the session. With re-
gard to Thursday nights, he thought it ought to be left to
Members who had motions to propose. Having said so much,
he hoped Hon. Members would take such steps with regard to
the remaining business of the session as would bring it to an
early close.
Mr. HAWES said that if such an arrangement as that named
respecting the House meeting on Wednesday at twelve o'clock
was agreed to, steps should be taken to ensure the attendance
of Members so as to make a House. He thought that at
such sittings questions that, in the present session had been
discussed three or four different times, might be settled at once.
He complained that though Thursday had been hitherto un-
derstood aS the night for independent motions since the Ist of
July, there had been no certainty of any Hon. Member having
the opportunity of commanding the ear of the House
Mr. BERNAL thought that next session of Parliament it
would not be so easy to command the attendance of the Hon.
Members as it had been in the present. He thought there
ought to be some other tribunal to refer the consideration of
railway Bills than such Committees as had sat upon them in
the present session. He did not think it would be possible for
the Government to get a sufficient number of volunteers the
next session to sit upon the quantity of Bills that would be
brought under the consideration of the House.
Sir ROBERT PEEL was of opinion that it would be a very
unsafe st to divest Parliament of the control which it now
possessed. He was persuaded the House of Lords would do
its duty, and he had full confidence that Hon. Members would
also do theirs.

Mr. A GLIONBY said that, having seven years' experience
of the business of that House, and seen the evils of continuous
sittings, he congratulated the public and the Right Hon.
Baronet on the step that was proposed to be taken regarding
the Wednesday sittings. Such a course would be beneficial to
all parties concerned.
Mr. HA WES said that in the twelve o'clock sittings the
attendance of Members ought to be enforced. Since the open-
ing of Parliament he never recollected such assiduous atten-
tion to business in any session as had been given. All general
business brought before the House had been most carefully
attended to. He must, however, except the private business.
He thought some change was necessary in the mode in which
those Bills were considered.
Mr. BULLER wished to express an opinion on the way in
which the private business was managed. He would take the op-
portunity of stating that a more injurious mode of conducting
inquiries on such Bills never existed in any country. He was
opposed to stand-still legislation, and wished a change. The
Right Hon. Baronet had expressed himself satisfied with the
present mode, but he (Mr. Buller) was not. There were in-
stances
.of a Bill that session, which having passed through a
Committee of that House at prodigious expense, was again
submitted to the same ordeal in the House of Lords,
hus repeating the whole expens'. But what
was the result even then ? The Bill was recommitted and af-
terwards thrown out—thus entailing prodigous expense on the
parties who were interested in the success of the measure.
There ought to be a court of appeal in which the whole inquiry
could take place, and the merits of the Bills be argued. Ile
trusted that Government would take this matter into its most
serious consideration. At present these questions were
generally decided by parties without local knowledge
or opportunities of forming a competent opinion on
their merits. He considered they ought to transfer all the
powers now held by Committees to a general board, a com-
petently constituted tribunal, which should have the power of
examining evidence, deciding the preambles of Bills, and re-
porting the same to the llouse ; the reports to be treated in
the same manner as coming from Committees of that House.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thouffht that
it was worthy of consideration whether some alteration could
not be made in the present manner of conducting these inqui-
ries before Committees.

- - WILLIAMSr. W recommended the bringing forward Bills
earlier in the session as a means of facilitating business. He
complained that within the last month so many as eleven Bills
had been introduced into the House.

Lord I'ALNIERSTON wished to say one word on the sub-
ject of accidents on railways, and on the outset he thought it
necessary to state that this was not the first act of care-
le:sness of which this particular local railway had
been guilty. In November last he came by one of their
trains to London ; he was in his own carriage, which
was turned with its back to the engine, and had ample oppor-
tunities of seeing what was going forward behind the train.
The train was drawn by an engine in front, and propelled occa-
sionally by an engine behind; and if an accident had happened
in any of the tunnels, the engine behind must have
inevitably run into his carriage, for there was only a
small luggage-waggon between the carriage and the
locomotive. 'Just previous to arriving at a station the engine
behind dropped off, so that the passengers might not be awa-e
of what was going forward, and after the train had passed the
station, up came the assistant engine again.—( Hear, and a
laugh.) He mentioned the circumstance to the Board of
Trade, and he then ascertained for the first time
that the company, from some false motive of economy, had had
a number of engines built which were not sufficiently powerful
to work the line, and they were, therefore, compelled to receive
the aid of an assistant engine. His principal object in rising.
however, was to call the attention of her Majesty's Goverment
to a subject of far greater importance—he meant the
present state of the national defences of the country.__( Hear. )
Any man who valued peace, or who was at all sensible of the
advantages derivable from peace, must feel that this was a mat.
ter of first-rate importance, because upon the existence of
peace depended the prosperity of the trade and com-
merce of the nation.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") He had
occasion to state, on a former ay, that France
maintained a standing army of 340,000 men fully equipped,
with a large cavalry, and a large artillery, and in addition to
this she had nearly a milion of the National Guards of Paris,
trained, disciplined, reviewed, equipped, clothed, and accus-
tomed to all the fatigues and duties attendant upon a time of
war. If this country were totally inaccessible, if there were
impassable barriers existing between the two countries—if the
Channel could not be crossed—he would admit that their present
forces and means of defence were amply sufficient for the na-
tional protection. But it was not so; the Channel could be
crossed in a few hours, and France had a navy in every
respect superior to our own ; and the Channel, therefore,
became no longer a barrier. France had a steam fleet ca-
pable of transporting 290,000 men. She had harbours inac-
cessible to any foreign Power for the safeguard and refuge
of this fleet, and around these inaccessable harbours she had
immense bodies of well-disciplined men, regularly and always
stationed. With this state of things on the opposite shore of
the. Channel, it was impossible that this country could remain
secure, unless Government established similar safeguards, and
formed a steam navy capable of repelling any foreign
intrlder.—( Hear, :hear.) He might be told that our
present relations with France were of the mort
amicable nature, and he trusted they would always remain so;
but it was impossible they could be sure, from month to month,
that this peace would continue to exist between two such great
countries, having had large interests in nearly every part of the
globe. Questions of the utmost delicacy and difficulty might
arise unexpectedly, and they would be quite unprepared fur
averting evils which might result from them. When these
questions arose, moreover, they could not deal with France in
that spirit of independence which was consistent with the in-
terest and importance of this great country, if they were not in a
state to convince her that our shores were inaccessible to
a foreign invader. On a former occasion he pointed nut the
defenceless state of our naval arsenals, when the Bight Hon.
Baronet told him that measures were taking for removing that
deficiency, and he had no doubt it would he done effectually.
He dwelt also, at the same time, upon the necessity of harbours
of refuge, when the Right Hon. Baronet stated that the subject
was under consideration, and Government intended to take a
vote for the purpose of establishing some o_f. them. The vote,
however, was too small ; but he trusted this
in the
smallthbe nexteginning
would be vigorously followed. up
session.—( Hear, hear.) But
their
was not only har-
bours of refuge they wanted ;
.steam navy was in a
deficient stag. There were no disciplined bodies of men sta-
tioned near to the coast, as in France, and, in the event of an
invasion being attempted, it would take up a considerable time
in getting the steam fleet ready to be used in repelling the enemy
—he was much mistaken if it could be done under three months.
He contended that there was a constitutional mode of guarding
against this state of things, by resorting to the practice,
which, from motives of economy, had been abolished, namely, of
calling up the militia. A short time ago he asked the Right Hon.
Baronet, then Secretary for the Colonies,lwhether it was intended
to billet the militia, and the Right Hon. Baronet told him that
it was not. He had therefore felt it to be his duty, before the
House went into this Committee of Supply, to urge
upon the Government the great importance of re-
organising this portion of our military force. There
was no constitutional objection to this course ; while
it would considerably increase the army at a comparatively small
expense, It was not enough for Government to have a majority

- s reLs-seseaseteses-ases—tes-7
in that House—it was not enough for them to pass their mea-
sure and scramble through the session—it was not enough for
them to introduce good measures for domestic legislation, and he
admitted that some of their measures this session had beereex-
cellent—no, it was not sufficient for a Government to do all
this ; there was something else fur them to do. They ought
to put the cost itry in such a state of sect r ty that they should
be able to set at defiance all hostile invasions and hostile threats.
Sir ROBERT PEEL objected to the introduction of dis-
cussions like the present, involving, as they did, questions of so
much magnitude and importance to the country. He
differed from his Noble Friend in thinking that
the country was in a defenceless state, and he
could assure the House that the Noble Lord considerably
underrated the forces of the country. Should it unfortunately
happen that the coustry should be threatened with hostilities,
he was sure there was sufficient loyalty existing amongst the
people that would enable her Majesty to maintain the ancient
valour of the country ; but there war no likelihood of such an
event coming to pass. for he was convinced a feeling per-
vaded the inhabitants of France that their prosperity de-
pended upon their commercial connexion with this country.
He was really surprised that the Noble Lord should entertain
such excessive apprehension of the ability of the Government
to provide for the defence of the country. He (Sir R. Peel)
could see no wel's ;rounded reason for such ap;:rehension.a-
-( Hear, hear.) He thought that if any necessity arose
fur this country to enter into hostilities with any
other nation, that at no former period of hfr
history would she be found better prepared. to.
SD than at the present—( Hear, hear)—and while he
admitted that the
.suggestions of the Noble Lord were
entitled to very considerable weight, he should still be sorry _to
see this nation striving with any other as to which should sup-
port the largest military establishment.—( Hear, hear.) But
had they neglected the griper measures fur the de-
fence of the country ? Were they less able now,
than in years past, to • maintain the honour of the
country? New improvements had taken place; steam navi.
gation had been introduced into naval warfare ; and had they
neglected any of these advantages ? ( Hear, hear. ) The votes
had been increased to 1,100,000/. for the army and navy, for
the purpose of putting them into a more efficient state, but this
had been done without any intention of departing from the
established principle, namely, to keep a sufficiently large force
under arms, without, however, entering into competition in
point of numbers with the standing armies of other countries.
—( Hear, hear.) He could assure the Noble Lord that this
country would not be satisfied with a standing army in Britain
of 100,000 or 120,000 men, and, therefore, though he ad-
mitted the limited number of the standing army
at present, he could rot, on the part of her Ma-
jesty s Government, entertain the thought of increasing
it in any considerable degree. The Noble Lord had
not taken into consideration that there were in this
country 50,000 able-bodied pensioners ; and this force surely
obviated arsy necessity far the measure so strongly recommended
by the Noble Lord, namely, the organization of the local militia.
They constituted a great and efficient body of men, on whom
the Government could place every dependence in the event of
any declared hostilities. He thought, therefore, that the ap-
prehensions of the Noble Lord might be allayed, and he could
assure him also, that the Government and the Parliament of this
country would undertake that its referees were properly
attended to.—( Hear, hear.) He concurred in the opinion
advanced by the Noble Lord, that every precaution should .be
taken against hostile aggression, bu. the Geve,nment must
also attend to the commercial claims of the country in the re-
mission of taxes, at the same time that. they did net overlook
the necessary support of its military establishment. That they
had not overlooked that department of the public service was
evidenced in the increase to the land forces and in the improve-
ments which had been and would be further effected in the
harbours of refuge. He would again assure the Noble LOrd
and the House that the Government was fully alive to the
importance of a sufficient land force, and with re-
spect to the Ordnance and the Navy, as as
the local constabulary of the country, they would
neglect no opportunity of placing them in the most effi-
cient condition. The Bight Hon. Baronet was most imper-
fectly understood throughout, and at times was perfectly in-
audible.

Lord PALNIERSTON said that he had not stated -that
the naval and military resources of the country were in a Ivo'
efficient condition than at any former period. AU he con.
tended for, and he did it on three or four grounds, was, that
such had been the improvement in steam navigation, that troops
might be transported from one part of the empire to another
with the utmost facility, and the economy of the military
department of the country was so much improved from what
it had been in times past. He had no intention of impeach-
ing the energy which the Government had shown in moments
of danger, but he wished to prove that the previous organisa.
tion was defective, and that it. ought, therefore, to be amended.
After a few words from Sir ROBERT PEEL,
Sir C. NAPIER said that they had at present at sea eight
sail of the line ; but they, in point of seamen, were two rates
below their proper weight.—( Hear, hear.) It was only
the other day that the Gallant Admiral opposite found it ne.
cessary to increase the number of men in those ships, and }its
could not have adopted a wiser measure. The Secre-
tary at War had stated, the other night, that no difficulty
was met with in finding persons willing to enlist into the army or
into the Ordnance, but he could assure the House that. the
greatest difficulty was found in inducing sailors to enter the
navy. The Right Hon. Baronet had also spoken of the stare of
their steam naval force. He could tell the Right Honourable
Baronet that in this respect they were inferior to their
neighbours on the Continent, who built their steam-vessels for
an increased number of men and weight of metal, while they
(the British) consulted only the rate of speed in their
naval architecture.—( Hear, hear.) He ( Sir Chat lea
Napier) was glad to hear that there were 50, 00 efficient
pensioners—men able to bear arms in the country. He was glad
to hear this, because they, with a little training, and the
30,000, the standing army in England and Ireland, constituted
a sufficient defence against foreign invasion.—( Hear, hear.)
The statement of the Noble Lord had taken a great weight off
his mind.—( Laughter. )

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
Messengers from the Lords brought up several Bills.

SUPPLY.

The House then went intoaCommittee of Supply.
On the motion that 80,3001. be voted to.(ltlray the superan-
nuation of persons formerly employed in the civil departmcn! a
of the Government,
Mr. HUME advocated the improvement of the natural bar.
hours of the country, that they might offer a better defence than
hitherto in the time of war, although he was a man
of peace and not of war, one hundred and fifty thousand
ships annually entered and left our ports—a number perfectly
astonishing when the smallness of the island was taken into
account—for which there was no proper protection in the na-
tural harbours of the country. He hoped that the Government
would assist nature, and devote a sum of money to what he had
suggested.
Sir R. PEEL thanked the Hon. Gentleman for calling their
attention to the subject. The report of he '1 idal Commission,
and his suggestions, should receive due attention from the
Government.
Mr. P. HOWARD wished to say a few words on the subject,
as he had attended a deputation trout the Isle of Man, which
had waited on the Right Honourable Baronet with
respect to improving the unprotected harbours of that island.
The authorities of that island were ready to devote a portion of
their revenues, to this object if they were supported in their
efforts by the Government. Independently of the advantages
which the construction of harbours of refuge would confer ors
the shipping in that part of the empire, they would be im-
portant elements of national defence in the event of war.
Mr. WILLIAMS said the persons who received the vote had
in many instances rendered an important service to the country.
They had received large salaries, which enabled them to save
money, bywhich they might support themselves when unfitted
for active service. Their support fell heavily upon the country.
The vote was then agreed to.
A vote of 1,8501. was proposed for defraying the expenses
of the national vaccine institutions. It was agreed to.
5,0001. was proposed for the Refuge for the Destitute.
In consequence of a suggestion made by Mr. HUME,
Sir J. GRAHAM proposed that it should be reduced to
the usual annual amount voted, namely, 3,0001. for the saw.
purpose.

The vote of 3,000/. was then agreed to.
The next vote was one of 11,800/. for, the Polish refugees
resident in this country. • -
Mr. 1300THWICK did not wish to• increase the number of
refugees, but thought some additional grant ought to be made.
If the Right Hon. Baronet could' by .any remonstrance with
the French Government prevent the tranemissien of refugees
from that country to this, he thought it would be highly
desirable. It was certainly a very heavy tax on
English benevolence, and money was expended on foreigners
to which our own poor had a prior claim, but there was no
alternative for these poor foreigners but starvation, if Parlia-
ment did not interpose.
Sir 0. PEEL must decline making any remonstrance with
the French Government on the subject, and he thought there
was some compensation for the expenditure in the reasons as-
signed for the refugees coming to this country. England
was the only country in the neighbourhood of
France to which refugees would be admitted after
being expelled from France, and ;the refugees themselves
preferred England to any other country, "a• being able
to enjoy the greatest toleration and liberty there."—(Cheers.)
However, France was at present encumbered with 11,000 of
these refugees—this country had 12,000, so that, in fact, the
number was nearly divided.
Mr. J. ABEL SMITH said, that it might not be out of
place in him to remark upon the intelligence—the melancholy
intelligence that had reached this city to-day, of another alarm-
ing fire in Quebec, by which 1,31)0 houses were burned and
thousands of poor people reduced to de-titution and suffering.
He w ished to know whether it was in the contemplation of the
Government to alleviate the sufferings of these poor people.
Sir R. PEEL said he had learned, with the utmost regret,
that another calamity had befallen on a previous similar
occasion. The Government then had done all that was
possible for the sufferers, and he felt confident that on this
occasion similar care and sympathy would be evinced. The
people of this country had exerted themselves in the most
creditable manner, and he trusted that a like benevolent
anxiety would be now evinced. He thought, however, that
Parliament should show its sympathy with their suffering
fellow subjects, and he would propose a vote for that purpose
on a future occasion—the vote would, he thought it right to
say, be not so much for the purpose of raising a sum as to
mark the sense of the House.—( Hear, hear.)
A vote of 4,93.4. was proposed to pay the pensions of mini!•
ters belonging to the dissenting congregations which had been
formerly included in the civil list.
Mr. HINDLEY proposed an amendment, t r the effect that
5,08/. paid to Independent Ministers be withdrawn.
Mr. CARDWELL opposed the amendment and supported
the original vote.
t.
The
FHoorutsheetohreingidniavlitmleodt„iov:en there appeared.—
52
For the amendment
Majority against the amendment qt
A vote of 2,146/. was then proposed, to defray charities,
bounties, and other charges in Scotland.
Mr. WILLIAMS objected to the vote,
The vote was agreed to without a division.
A vote of 1,329/. was agreed to for defraying tie expenses t
the House of Industry in Dublin.
2,5001. was agreed to for the Western and Lock Hospitals.
1,5001. was voted to defray the expenses of Stephens',
Hospital.
500/. was voted for the expenses of the Hospital of Incurables.
On the vote of 35,264/, being proposed for Non-conforming
and other ministers in Ireland,
Mr. SHARNIAN CRAWFORD, according to notice, op-
posed the vote on account of its svnallsess, and proposed that no
less than 303,000/. be devoted to these clergymen.
Mr. WILLIAMS did not agree with the liberality of his
Hon. Friend, and opposed the vote on the principle that no
class of clergymen should be paid by the State.
Mr. HINDLEY obj7.cted to the vote on the seine grounds,
and said that these clergymen could have very little depen-
dence on the effect of their religion on their flocks; when they
looked to the State for provision.
Mr. HUME suggested that after the passing of the vote
no new recipients should be taken on the fund.
Mr. WILLIAMS, said if the Hen. Gentleman would not
press the amendment to a division, that he would do so, as
his constituents objected to the State paying the ministers et
any religion.
The House then divided, when there appeared
For the vote
Against it
Majority
On the sum of 22,5651. being proposed rot tho colony of
Nero Zealand,

~h
N, -