The Sun.
London, England, 1818-03-07 00:00:00

STANDING ARMY;

The Report of the Mutiny Bill being brought
up,

Lord ALTHORPE rose to move an amendment to
the Preamble of the Bill. When the question of
the amount of force to be maintained was before

agitated, the House was so thin, that he Cionght
it his duly again to bring it, before them. When

,
the country Was in a state of financial difficulty
—when the income in the last year had been only
51 millions, and the expenditure 65, it was ob-
vious that exert ions must -be made to raise the

•
one, or to reduce the other, or that the •country
must go on plunging farther in debt ; Whether
that debt was contracted in the shape of Excite-.
quer Bills,or Loatts.—ln discussing the proposed
reductions, they were also at the salve time disc.uss-
ing Whether or no they would raise more taxes.; if

reduction ,was not made, new takes must
mately'be raised. He proposed reduction in the
Military Establishment, as the branch of expen-
diture most susceptible of reduction. He,should
ngt enter into the, det4ils of thre points at which
the military tome was, now employed ; but 'he
should compare the present Estimates with those
of former years,. when the country was in a state
of peace. The comparison had been made with
1792 ; but as that bad been objected to, he should

take the year 1786 asa point olcotnpatison; that
1.4.,As the third year after the American war, :Ile
left ow: of the compalioori, I. The Colonies ac-
quired since tlit time 2. Ireland, which, it was
acimitted by Gentlemen from that conntryi.te-
•rptired a larger 'force, though responsibility tot
the cor,Auct which brpo'ght about the necessity
wAs oti the shoulflers of the Ministers, and .espe-
ci %Hy the Noble Lortl (Castlereagh), who coh-
sented-io compromise a measure he had
himself. "declared to be essential to its tranquillity;
3. The troops required under the nen, systeid of
Reliefs. The Noble Lord (Palmerston) had cal-
culated 12,000 men for the newly acquired' Colo-
nies he (Lott! A.) should allow 13,620. Thus
24,000 remained for: the Colonies which we pos-
sessed in 176. The comparison thus was—

In 17W, for Cir. at Britain, 17,638. In 1818, 49,780
fur the Colunies, 9,546. Du. 21,000
Irish Regiments servitigabroad, e,490.

211,674 53,780
The difference between the number at one period
and the other was upwards of 24,000 men. It
was attempted to account for a part of the dif-
ference by the mode of Reliefs ;, 6,000 men were
required for Reliefs at present. Suppose' 2,000
only were formerly so employed—this made a
diffeteuce of 4,000 ; brit if this number was
deducted, an excess of 20,000 remained. in
the present year over 1786. For this excess
one reason was orged—au increase of Popu-
lar di.atfection. He WAS sorry to hear this plea.
11 had been the boast of this and every free Qo-
ternment, that not our military force;' Wour
respect to the.
_laws, was sufficient- to
,preierve
order. He did, not admit the troth of the pretext ;
bta it he had admitted it, and admitted that it
justified the iuct ease of force from 17,000 to
29,000 in Great Britain, this was no reason for
increase in the Colonies. The increase of the po-
pulation of England surely did not make the West
Jndia Islands less secure. Bat every thing tended
to,._Shew that less force was necessary than in
1746; In 1786% we had concluded an unsuccess-
ful war, tuid could test on military force only for
our' defence. We had now concluded a successful
war), and had a great army, in addition to our
other force, on the continent of Europe ;—with
our Alliei an immense army—to our Colonies no
danger could be apprehended from any European
Power. The only shadow of danger was from
America. But the whole standing -army of Ame-
rica was 8000 met,, and to watch this, we kept
up twethy•tour thousand in our Old Colonies.
His argument, it might be said, went farther than
the propositior, with which he should conclude,
which nes, fur a redaction 'of 5000 men. His
,only reason for limiting it to that number was,
that a motion for it greater reduction had been
negatived by a large majority. If his motion
'was cairied, there would yet be an increase of
.15,001) men, 'after the Lull allowance made for
the reliefs. His Lordship then urged time ini=
roc ante of the reductiou in an economical .as.
well as constitutional point of view; especially
.the reduction of influence. The reduction, be
lbottalit; might best be made by taking 50 men
teach from 100 battalions. He concluded by mov-
ing, that instead of 113,640 men,, the words
!, 108,640 Wren" be inserted.
Mr. WYNN agreed to much of the substance of
the Noble Lord's.speech, but objected to it on
the grontid of tom, and because he thought it
would.not answer the end proposed. In 1715 the
',umbers mentioned in the Mutiny Bill had been
retlneed7irOjatkentlifibCrT o.; biCh Slip-
ittCralreen vranted, to 8,500. In 1721, from
14;244 to 13,244. to 1722, from 18;294 to.
16,149: 'Vet ails those thoies, the ;:rekter, putpber,
.that is, the number for which the supply had
been granted, and
.not the number rnentioned.in
the Mutiny Act, had-been 'maintained. The \lords
of the Mntinyakct wet e, in fact, recitory and not
en-active. Much of the reasoning of the Noble
Morey he aporOved of, especially the parCwltiell,
related.to die Colonies ; but he disapproved of the
;manner
.
in whieirbis ideas were to be carried into
effect.. tle had no ohjection- to tile maintenance
'of the proposed number of_ troops -in the Colonies,
but' he thou ht the Colonies should bear the ex-
pend!. J &indica once maintainui two battalions
of infintry' and a .regiment of cavalty.
Mr. BAtaxEs could not agree with the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman (Mr. Wynn). The precedents
which the lion, and Learned Gentleman bad
stated, slimed that it was. not irregular. The
only reason- for the Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man's objection was, that for some 'reason or
other, the wishes of the Legislature had been con-
travened by the Executive. If the Houses of
Parliament conctirred in the vote now proposed,
he had no doubt they bad strength and vigilance
enough to see that the vote was executed. The
Hon: Gentleman then pressed the necessity of re-
duction at Oh time, and observed, that though
Mr. Pitt had been censured because be reduced the
'force, in 1-792, to so low an amount, that,,on the
breaking out of the war, inconvenience arose
from the necessity of speedily augmenting it ; yet
no number 'which would then have been tolerated
would have obviated that inconvenience. The
state of the country was much iMproved, and he
thought a reduction of three regiments, or 2,400
men, in Britain, and the same proportion on the
colonial force, would scarcely be felt. He cor-
dially supported the motion
Lord PALMERSTON maintained that the prece-
dents of the peace establishment of 1786 and 92
cciuld, not be consistently urged upon th.e present
occasion, as the circumstances of thecoontry bad
since those periods so materially altered. 'Besides,.
Air. Pitt was confessedly deceived in, the 'calcu-
latioos noon which he founded the military es•
tablishment in -92 ; for when he proposed in the
February of that year to fix its limit, he calculated
upon the duration of the peace for 15 years.—lt
was also known that the reduced amount of the
army„through that establishrhent, served to para-
lyze military efForts for several of. the early
years of
,the war, until indeed'our military force
was advanced by very inconvenient and expensive
But there was, in tact, no identity of
circumstances between the state of the country in
1792 and that in which it was placed at present. Fur
through the bast increase of our population, pal.
ticillarri'ha the manufacturing districts, where
congregated together, the 'people were so liable
to 'he eNeited to tuniult in case of anytinterruption
of our ,cuannercial'proaperitya or any scarcity of

means.

, .
provisions throurOi unfavourable seasons, or of any'
,)bier cause for -popular discontent, •it was obvi-
ously neeeisary to, provide a notch larger military
force for the preset vation of the public peace at
Present than could have been required twenty-six
year, ago. Yet, for this important purpose the
whole force proposed for Great Britain would not.
exceed 18,000 men, in consequence 'of the number
required rot Guernsey, Jetsey, and other garri-
sons, which was not, in tact, 5,000 men more
tioin the establkhruent of 92. 1--1(')w then could
18,000 men he deemed too large, if Gen'lemen
considered the number necessary to preserve the
peace of the Metiopolis, in the first ins'anee
It was clear, from experience at different times,
on the discussions a few years ago, for example,
upon the'Corn Bill, that the presence of a consi-
derable military force in the Metropolis was re-
quisite, to terrify and restrain ton brdent spirits
trom disorder and outrage,—to protect the per-
sons ito!l pr opert yof his Majesty's subjects. Again,
a military force was necessary to guard the Dock
yards, to assist the collection of the Revenue, and
to preserve the peace of the interior of the coun-
try. For- such purpose 18,000 men could not
surely be deemed excessive. Then as to the
establishment prOposed for. Ireland,, the pro-
priety of "that proposition, had been fully shown
by his Right Hon. Friend .(Mr. Peel), and he was
glad'to see that this proposition was approved of
by the several Gentlemen who were best ac-
quainted with the state of that country. Now as
to the provision for the old Colonies, the fact was,
that the increase of torce for that service, beyond
the establishment of 92, was very trifling with.the
exception of that for the Canadas, in which the mi-
litary establishment, and means of deence, were
materially advanced, for reasons which it was un-
necessat y to state, and which implied no undue
suspicion of the amicable spirit of the United
States. The establishment of tile new Colonies,'
which created" an iudiSpensable advanee on the
total amount of our military farce, was, framed, he
could adism, upon the 11/oit cOnsiderate gronnds,
But the House notsr be aware that such places as
the Cape of Goof Hope and Malta would he no
acquisition- this Country if they were not ode.-
quately garrisoned, and .the same might be said of
others of our new Colonies, On -these grounds
the Noble Lord' expressed his intention to vote
against the motion.
Mr. ORM was of, opinion that such an esta-
blishment would tend to ruin and destroy the
country. He objected to its being •thotight ne-
cessary that a great military force should be kept
up for the protection of London and the Dock-
yards. No such approach'to a military mania was
ever before made in a time of peace. There•was
not a levee now held without such a parade of
drums, trumpets, and soldiers„ as would, at any
former time, have induced us to believe' that the
French were at our doors. There was a time
-when his Majesty could hold a levee and his
friends go to Court, without tieing interrupted by
soldiers, which was-much more becoming in an
English Monarch than such military' pomp. the
argument-of the Noble Lord about the war in
1793 would have-applied to any period of our
history; and this was one of the reasons why he
objected to it. It might be made the ground of
pluniing the country again into war, by haring
at our disposal that fatal engine, a large military
force. Ad the Noble Lord mean to say, that
such was the dissatisfaction the contact of
hiSters had produced,' that nothing but a large mi-
litary force could preserve the tranclujility of the
country ? lie was convinced, on the contrary,
that it would work the destruction of the very
Constitution and Government that it was intended
to protect. But the force in itself was not half
so. alarming as the doctrines by which it was
defended.

.Lord NUQENT observed, that if Ministers were
siaeere in their wishes for any reduction, he
shOuld. like to see it carried into effect with
regard to our foreign mercenaries: There was one
large regiment, the 60th, which contained four
full battalions, composed entirely of foreigners of
different nations, and mostly deserters. The num-
ber of these battalions amounted to more than
two-thirds of the whole reduction proposed in the
army. Such a regiment had the last claim to be
supported on the return of peace. They ought to
be disbanded, and returned to the oato-al protec-
tion of the countries they had a claim to. Odcansi,
Bering the subject of the military establishment for
the last two years, his mind had been attracted to
the Army of Occupation of France. He was aware
Of the- difficulties there would. be in the recal and
-reduction of that army; but he was also aware of
the prejudices against keeping up such an army,
and he would say that .110 establishment should
have his
,support that was so, dangerous and un-
constitutional as to keep up. a British army in
France in time of peace. He objected to it as
being most prejudicial to civil liberty, because
British force was employed to support a military
Government ; and it was our duty to tell those
soldiers,. on their return, that such 'a support as
they bad given to France would be treason in
Drgland. The Noble Lord then censured the.
Treaty of Paris, as the tvorut and weakest that
"could have been made.; hot k ought to be scru-
pulously observed ; although he did not'find any
article of that Treaty that authorized one part of
the contingent to be formed of British troops.
He would rather vote for paying mercenary troops,
in order to
_relieve the. British army from such a
distPustin!, employment.
'lllr. WARRE could not see the necessity for any
larger military force at present than existed in
1792, and if the manner in which the army were
generally employed were considered, it would be
evident to every rational being that no such ne-
cessity could be pleaded, unless it were deeined
material to have soldiers stationed as centinels
upon Chinese Bridges—to guard French mortars,
-or to attend idle shews.—lt was extraordinary, he
observed, with what facility. Ministers could get
Hit-of the authority of Mr. Pitt when it suited
their purpose, while they. held up that authority
as an object of the highest reverence, on other
'occasions. Because .Mr. Pitt 'had proposed ti
-moderate military establiihment, in 1792, in con
sequence of the- probable. duration of peace and the
embarrassed state of our finances, that. Minister
was truly deceived, and d:itute of political fore-
ei
sight. • The insurrection iii the Isle of Ely was pot
down 'by a Cornet of Dragoons, a relative of the

Hon. Member for Wiltshire. If, indeed, the
French Revolution, with its ksolating principles,
were yet in opera-tion—if the victories of 181 4
and 1815 bad not taken place—if the-Treaties of
the Noble Lord (Castlereagh) had not been signed,
then indeed he could understand the argtiments of
the Honourable Gentlemith':opposite, in support
ut suchatk,extensive military force. One tvonld
suppose there was still the fear of some convul-
sion. .Indeed, from the round-about manner in
which the Noble Lord expressed himself as to a
tranquillity not yet consolidated, it would seem
that the advocates for the present establishment
thougbt so. It was with regret that hemoW saw
in the great States of the Continent a determina-
tion to uphold what the Noble Secretary had so
.justly described—a great military'plouster: 14111
with what Consistency could. Great I.iiirain inter=
pose to obtain its extinction, until she herself first
set the example ?

The H onse then divided
For Lord Althorpe's Motion ' tie
Against it

. Majority ' 2l
The Mutiny Bill was then read a second time,
and the third reading fixed for Monday.

ROYAL BURGHS.

Lord CASTLEREAGH seeing a Noble Lord (A.
Hamilton) in his place, said, he was ready to give
the answer to the question of that Noble Lord,
respecting the intended Bill as to the Royal
Burghs: The Lou! -Advocate of Scotland had
prepared the Bill, but as be was anxious to have
the opinion of-the law authorities in Sc'otland, on
its nature and probable operation, he could 'not
hold out the hope of its being snbjeeted to• the
consideration, of Parliament before the recess.
Lord A. HAMILTON .expressed his dissatisfac:
Lion at the 'moire of "the answer, and felt, that
from wl.:at hatl'fallen from the 'Lord Advocate on
A former occasion, that-the measure ought now to
be before Parliament.
Sir JOHN'NEWPORT said, he could not avoid
protesting against the ,principle, now for the first
time avowed, that those whose province it was
to execute the lavv, should have an initiatory jinig-
ment on a measure intended for the consideration
of the Parliament, It was an invasion of the pre=
rogative of one branch of the' Legislature.
The Bank Tokens' Penalty Suspension Bill went
through a Committee:
On the motion of Mr. CALCRAFT, a Return was
'ordered to be laic! on the table of the Amount of
the whole Military Force employed! in Great Bri=
Lain and the Foreign Stations, up to the Ist of
March, distinguishing karge, Foot, and Artillery.
The CHANCELLOR' Of the EXCHFQUER gave no-
tice.of his intention to move, on Monday next,
for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the Savings'
Bank Act.