The Sun.
London, England, 1845-06-19 00:00:00

THE SIT I‘l, LONDON, THURS'DA:I EVENING, JUNE 19, 1845.

The North Wales Railway Bill was read a third time, and
passed.
'The Hartlepool Pier and Ports Bill was real a third time,
and passed.
The Lords' Amendments to th,l Hudlersfield and Sheffield
Junction Railway Bill were agreed to.
The North Woolwich Railway Bill was read a third time and
passed.
The Lords' amendments to the Dunstable and London and
Birmingham Railway Bill were agreed to.
The Lords' Amendments to the Leeds and Bradford Exten-
sion (Shirley to Colne) Railway Bill were arced to.
The Duke of Argyle's Estate Bill was read a third time and
passed.
The Lords' Amendments to the Leicester Freemen's Allot-
ments Bill were agreed to.
The Staleybridge Waterworks Bill was read a third 'time
and passed. _ _

The Eastern Union and Bury St. Edmunds. Railway (No.
2) Bill was read a third time and paned.
The Dundalk and Enniskillen Railway Bill was read a third
time and passed
Lord A ,HLEY presented petitions from diffevent parts of
Lancashire in favour of a Ten flours Bill.

The Waterfprrd and Limerick Railway Bill was read a third
time and pa,sed.
The Lords' Amendments to the Leeds and Dewsbury and
Manchester Railway Bill were agreed to.
The Wolverhampton Waterworks Bill was read a third
time and passed.
The Glasgow, Paisley, and Kilmarnock Railway Bill was
read a third time and passed.
The Whitehaven and Furness Junction Railway Bill was read
a third time and passed.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL presented numerous Petitions, from
Dublin and other places, against the plan of academical educa-
tion proposed by the Government. The total number of sig-
natures was near 30,000.

Sir R. FERGUSON moved that the proceedings upon
the Coleraine and Londonderry Railway Bill be postponed
until to-morrow.—Agreed to.
➢IESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.

Messengers from the House of Lords brought up several Rills.
COMMONS INCLOSURE AND DRAINAGE OF

LANDS BILLS.

The Earl of LINCOLN said that as the adjourned debate
would no doubt occupy the greater part of the night, he
would suggest that the second reading of the:ie two gills
be now taken without discussion, and that any of its principles
be taken into consideration at the bringing up of the report.
The Bills were then severally read a second time, and
ordered to be committed on Thursday next.
COLLEGES (IRELAND) BILL.
Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN would ask a question of the Right
Hon. Gentleman, the Secretary for the Home Department, as
it was not likely that the House could go into Committee on
the Collegiate Education Bill that night, what other day he
could name.

Sir JAMES GRAHAM replied, that he would fix next
Monday for going into Committee on the Bill.
SCOTCH POOR-LAW.

In answer to a question from Mr. FOX MAULE,
Sir J. GRAHAM said that, in the absence of the Lord Ad-
vocate, he could not say whether it weuld be possible to pro-
ceed with the Poor-law Rill for Scotland on Monday next.
NEW ZEALAND—THE ADJOURNED DEBATE.

Mr. ELLICE said he could not allow the present ques-
tion to pass over without offering a few remarks upon it.
He would consume very ltttle of the time of the House by
going back into any details which had been discussed before.
With respect to the past, he thought he might state that, in
the course of a long experience—nearly 40 years—with the colo-
nies and colonial administration of this empire, he had never seen
such a want of foresight, system, and common sense as had
been exhibited by the Government since the commencement
of these New Zealand transactions. He had been
one of an association of gentlemen invited by his
lamented friend Lord Durham to consider the
expediency of opening a communication with the islands
of New Zealand. Application was made to the Crown for
protection to that undertaking. He subscribed his share of the
funds necessary for the undertaking, but having ascertained
that it was impossible to obtain protection from the Govern-
ment, and that even a charter was denied to the gentlemen
who had commenced that undertaking, he withdrew imme-
diately from it, not desiring to be responsible for carrying
into a remote wilderness, and without the protection
of the controul of the law, settlers from this country.
Beyond this he had interfered no further. Arid here let him
say that he was indebted to the present Company for the re-
payment of the money he had advanced to the
former Company, one shilling of which he never
expected to receive ; but beyond this he knew nothing
whatever of the present Company.— sfear, hear.) He
would say, then, that it would be impossibn for him to approve
of the resolution appointing the present Company, for he con-
ceived it was a wrong act on the part of those who were instru-
mental in sending out to that savage isl.nd those emigrants,
and it was equally wrong in the Government to have permitted
it, without giving to them the protection and safeguard of the
law. But while he held that opinion he should also state that
he conceived the New Zealand Company had done a great deal
of good ; and the discussion that the affair had created in this
House was the result of the pressure from without, and the result
would be to compel the Government to act with caution
and circumspection in future. He did think it was the duty
of the authorities of this country to have taken care that the
settlement of strangers in that Island should have been made as
little irksome to the natives as possible. But instead of that, the
Government of this country had made confliction parties of
the Missionaries and the New Zealand Company, and the
New Zealand Company against the missionaries, and all these
differences only tended to defeat the object it should have been
their duty to promote.—( Hear, hear.) In fact, to hear this
question spoken of as it had been in this House, one would
scarce believe that they were in an assembly of reasonable men.
When we had acquired a colony, it had been the acknowledged
principle, that all the land which was not in the occupation of
the natives, or of persons to whom they had made made real
transfers of it should be considered the property of the
owner.—( Hear, hear.) An supposing it were otherwise, still
for she good of the natives themselves, for the advantage of the
colony, and for the general benefit of mankind, that the Crown
should assume that right.—( Hear, hear,) His Right
Honourable Friend the Member for Oxford had spoken
in hig I:, he would not say exaggerated, terms of the
labours of the missionaries. But yet it could not
he denied that there had been in the part of some of them an
attempt to add to their duty in spreading Christianity, too
rea-ty a yielding to the temptation to acquire property.—( Hear,
hear.) He thought that whatever title in land should be recog-
nised, that title should be held under the Crown, and not
under any sham treaty.—( Hear, bear.) Was it to be said,
that in consequence of such a treaty these fine islands
were to remain waste until it should be convenient to the
Crown to purchase the land from those wretched natives?
Of all the devices that could have been practised in a national
assembly, that surely was the greatest which asserted that
50,000,000 or 70,000,000 of acres, such as was compre-
hended in the island of New Zealand, should be taken from the
original possessors by the Government under a base delusion.
He would urge the Administration, therefore, if they would not
fall under the odium of adopting that device, to say what was
their interpretation of the treaty of Waitangi. Differ-
ences as to its meaning were entertained by Honour-
able Gentlemen on his side of the House, and
among others the Noble Member for London, from
the Gentlemen on the benches opposite. It must be de-
cided now, and for ever, whether estate could take land on its
own right or give tobacco and Jews-harps for it. The way in
which everything hitherto had been done in the island
was to mar prosperity, and to destroy an infant and
pdreosmireising colony.—(Hear,
to discuss thmisf hear.)ortunes B
of tuhte past,
tta
,v
buts noth e his
had
risen rather to inquire the intentions of the Government for
the future. Did they mean to continue the island of New
Zealand a penal colony, and govern it as such ? Are the people
not to be allowed to govern themselves? And was it in-
tended to establish any, and if so, what institutions, there ?
We have seen all the mischief that had resulted from the con-
fused policy respecting New Zealand. When the Government
were called upon to state their opinion on the subject, was it
satisfactory to state that no change was intended in the
administration of the colonial affairs. He considered that
Captain Fitzroy had not acted very judiciously in the expe-
dients to which he had resorted, but the Chancellor of the
Exchequer had stated it was a difficult matter to make
man in a foreign country responsible for every action which he
might see it to perform, which his wisdom or experience might
dictate. He would, not, however, say one word against Cap-
tain Fitzroy, notwithstanding the errors of which he had been
guilty. He wished to ask the Right Hon. Secretary for the
Home Department upon what principle he intended to govern
New Zealand? what encouragement did they mean to give to
the colony. The hon. member for Leominster, who had dis-
tinguished himself by the speech he had made last
night, suggested that the Government should purchase
the colony from off the hands of the New Zealand Coin-
patty. He objected, however, to this course, as in
the first place, it would cost a great deal of money ; and, in
the second place, the New Zealand Company were better
acquainted with the country than any new governing body
could be, and he thought they were still capable of pro-
tecting and increasing the interests of the colonists. Tell the
New Zealand Company what was to be their legitimate station
as landowners, and what was their present situation with re-
spect to natives and settlers. Let the Government tell them
this distinctly. The colony had already entailed on the Go-
vernment considerable expense, which was likely to be still
further increased. It had been said that a regiment of troops
was to be sent out. He wished the Honourable Mem-
ber for Montrose was here to take that fact under
his especial revision. The expense of sending out a regiment
of troops included various charges of commissariat, victualling
staff, and other expenses. The expense at the lowest would beb,
100,0001., and the country would be unnecessarily saddled with
it. The evil consequences of misgovernment were now rife in
New Zea'and.
LIAM SPIAKING. I

PROTEST AGAINST THE THIRD
READING OF THE bIAYNOOTH BILL.

Dissentient—
]. Because I ho:d it to be contradictory to the first principles of
the Reformation to provide for the establishment of au order of
men to be educated for the express purpose of resisting and defeat-
ing that Reformation—men whose office and main duty it will be
to disseminate and to perpetuate those very corruptions of the
Christian faith which the Church of England has solemnly abjured,
and some of which the whole Legislature of England has declared
to be superstitious and idolatrous.
2. Because the most unbounded toleration of religious error
does not require us to provide for the maintenance and the growth
of that error, but rather imposes upon us a strong obligation to pre-
vent by all just and peaceful means its increase, and to discourage
its continuance.
3. Because this measure has a tendency to raise in the public
mind a belief that religious truth is a matter of indifference to the
State; and by consequence to subvert that principle of succession
to the throne, which is the title of the present dynasty, and which
forms an integral and essential part of the Constitution of this
kingdom. E. LLANDAFF.
C. WINTON.
C L A NC ARTY.
C. J. LONDON.
J. B. CHESTER.
R. CASHEL, &c.
WINCHILSEA and NOTTINGHAM.
CADOGAN.

THE ROUND CHURCH AT CAMBRIDGE.—The hand-
some iron palisading in front of this edifice Is now completed, and
presents a very Imposing appearance. The communion table and
altar rails have also been put up, and the church will shortly be re-
Opened for service.

LAW INI ELLIGENCE.
COURT OF COMMON PLEAS, June 18.
(Sittings at Nisi Prius, before Mr. Justice ERIE, and Special

Juries.)
O'CONNELL V. PAYNE ►ND OTHERS.

This was an action for libel, in which William John O'Connel
was Plaintiff, and the registered proprietors of the Morning Post
defendants.

Mr. Sergeant Shee and Mr. Percival Banks appeared for the
plaintiff; Mr. Sergeant Talfourd and Mr. Boothby for the de-
fendants. _ _

To the libel set forth in the declaration the defendants pleaded
the general issue, which in this action amounts to not guilty,
putting in issue two facts fur the jury—first, the publication;
secondly, whether the matter published was or was not libellous.
The alleged libel wrisp as follows
CONFUSION IN IHE LONDON REPEAL CAMP.—Mr, W. J.

The following noblemen and distinguished officers were of the party :
—Field-Marshal his Royal Highness Prince Albert, Colonel of
the Scots Fusilier Guards; his Excellency Prince Castelcicala,
the Neapolitan Minister; his Excellency Count Klelmansegge,
the Hanoverian Minister; General the Marquis of Anglesey,
Colonel of the Royal Horse Guards (blue), K.G., G.C.8., and
G.C.H.; General the Right Hon. Sir James Kempt, Colonel of
the 2d Foot, G.C.8., and G.C. H. ; General Lord Strafford, Co-
lonel of the 9.9 th Foot, G.C.8., and G.C.H. ; Lieut.. Gen. the
Right Hon. Sir F. Adam, Colonel of the 21st Foot, G.C.B. and
G.C. M.G. ; Lieut.-Gen. Sir Edward Kerrison, Bart., Colonel of
the 14th Dragoons, G.C.B. and G.C.H.; Lieutenant-General
Sir Andrew Barnard, Colonel Commandant of the Rifle
Brigade, G.C.B. and G.C.H. ; Lieutenant-General Sir
Henry Arkew, late Grenadier Guards, C. 8.; Lieutenant-General
Sir George A. Quentin, K. C.H. ; Lieutenant-General Sir A.
Woodford, Colonel of the 40th Foot, K.C.B. and G.C. M.G. ;
Lieutenant-General Lord Fitzroy Somerset, Colonel of the 53d
Foot, K.C.8.; Lieutenant-General Sit- James hlacdonell, Colonel
of the 79th Foot, K.C.B. and K.C.H. ; Lieutenant-General J. W,
Sleigh, Colonel of the 9th Dragoons, C. 8..; Lientenant.General Sir
A. B. Clifton, Colonel of the Ist Dragoons, K.C.B. and K.C.H. ;
Major-General the Hon. E. P. Lygon, Colonel of the 13th Dra-
goons, C. 8.; Major-General Sir John G. Woodford, K.C.B. and
K.C. H. ; Major-General Sir George Scoell, K.C.B. ; Major-General
Lord Saltoun, K.C.B. and G.C.H.; Major-General H. Wyndham;
Major-General Sir Edward Bowater, K.C.H.; Major. General H.
D'Oyley ; Major-General Sir A. Cameron, K.C.8.; Major-Gen.
Sir J. May, K.C.B. and K.C.H. ; Major-General James Hay, C.B. ;
Major-General Sir H. D. Ross, K.C.8., Adjutant-General to the
Royal Artillery ; Major-General John Webber, Smith, C.B. ;
Major-General Sir R. Gardiner, K.C.8., and K.C.H. ; Major-
General D. Mercer, C.B. ; Colonel E. Cheney, C.B. ; Colonel
R. Llewellyn, C. 8.; Colonel A. Money, C.B. ; Colonel R. Eger-
ton, C.B. ; Colonel J. C. Bouchier ; Colonel J. B. Parker, C.B. ;
Colonel Campbell, C.B. ; Colonel J. Grant, C.B. ; Colonel T. W.
Taylor, C.B. ; Colonel F. Calvert, C.B. ; Colonel M. Childers,
C.B. ; Colonel W. Drummond; Colonel A. Macdonald, C.B. ;
Colonel W. Rowan, C.B. ; Colonel G. Bowles ; Colonel Allix ;
Colonel Lotd J. F. H. Somerset ; Colonel W. Walton ; Colonel J.
Martin ; Colonel Sir J. Thackw ell, Colonel of the 3d Dragoons,
K.C.B. and K.C.H. ; Colonel E. Wildman ; Colonel M. Maxwell
Wallace, K.H. ; Colonel W. G. Moore; Colonel the Hon. 0.
Anson ; Colonel Lord Sandy; ; Colonel Stowell ; Colonel C. P.
Ellis ; Colonel the Hon. G. Cathcart; Colonel T. Wildman; Col.
Gut wood; Colonel B. Drummond; Colonel F. R. Lascelles ; Col.
Bowers ; Colonel Dyneley, C.B. ; Colonel L Boldero ; Colonel
Robbins; ColonelJ. Oldfield, K.H. ; Lieutenant-Colonel the Hon.
G. L. D. Darner; Lieutenant-Colonel H. Webster ; Lieutenant-
Colonel the Hon. H. Montague ; Lieutenant-Colonel E. Bouverie ;
Lieutenant-Colonel J. Cox; Lieutenant-Colonel G. Wilkins,
C.B. and C.H., &c.

The band of the Noble Duke's regiment were in attendance, and
played during dinner a selection of favourite music,
After the removal of the cloth, the customary toasts were pro-
posed, and the company separated about ten o'clock.
Since the last anniversary the following officers present at the
battle have died :—Lieutenant.General Lord Harris, Major. Gen-
eral Clement Hill, Major-General John Fremantle, Colonel Sir
Charles Webb Dance, K.H., Colonel Sir George Charles Hoste,
C. H., Colonel Edward Clive, Colonel Charles King, K.H., Colonel
J. Logan, Lieutenant-Colonel Richard Croker, Lieutenant Colonel
H. Baynes, K.H., Lieutenant-Colonel ♦lexander Burton, Lieu.
tenant. Colonel Thomas Cox Kirby, Lieutenant-Colonel Lewis Car-
michael, &c. Several of these gallant officers were present at the
Duke's dinner last year.

The Duke of Wellington subsequently honoured Lady Fevers..
ham with his company at her Ladyship's ball in Belgrave.rquare.

ACCIDENT ON THE GREAT
WESTERN RAILWAY.

&mums, WEDNESDAT.—Major-General Pasley, the Government
inspector of railways, arrived here to.day, accompanied by Mr.
Seymour Clarke, for the purpose of inspecting that portion of the
line over which the carriages traversed yesterday, previously to
their being thrown over the embankment, between the Langley
station and the Dog.kennel.bridge. We may state, without anti.
cipating the report which the Government inspector will make, that
no defects were discovered in the line of rails to have caused the ac-
cident.

The up-line was opened for carriages by one o'clock yesterday,
within about three hours after the accident occurred. The
down line, the rails of which had to be newly laid down for
a considerable distance, in consequence of the injuries they
had sustained, was cleared and opened in time for the
train which left Paddington for Bristol at five o'clock yester-
day afternoon. By dint of the extraordinary exertions of
upwards of 100 men, and a large number of horses, the
second.class carriage and the two first-class carriages which
were lying in the field of Mr. J. Nash, and the second-
class carriage which rested on the declivity, were dragged up the
embankment, 15 feet in height, and " righted" upon the rails,
by 1 o'clock this morning. They were then takeen on to Slough,
where they were transferred to the up-line, and thence conveyed
to Paddington, where they were inspected by Major-Gen, Pasley
previously to his proceeding to Slough. The wheels of the luggage
andrails,
va , w
ihc
hi c
ca
uw.
eda s
tthhee w
hfiorlscarriage
et
o f
ti,em ws
chhiicehf, gotund
eorffw
minute
examination. No defect.., however, prior to the accident, were
discovered.

Sir Richard Rawlinson Vyvyan, the Member fir Helston, who
was in the train yesterday at the time of the accident, and who was
severely cut upon the forehead, is fast recovering from the effects
of his injuries. Sir Richard still remains at the Royal Hotel, and
was visited last evening by his brother, from town. Dr. Strong
(who sustained an injury in the knee) and Mr. Bristow (whose
shoulder was dislocated), who still remain with their families
at the Royal Hotel, are convalescent. Mr., Mrs., and Miss
Shute, of Southwell- park, Tewkesbury, with a female
servant, who were in a first-class carriage which turned
twice over in descending the embankment, providentially es-
caped uninjured. They immediately proceeded with post-horses
to Tewkesbury. .

To the extraordinary strength of both the first and second.class
carriages, which, tkough very much damaged and shattered, stood
the shock so as to enable the passengers to move freely in them,
may be attributed the preservation of the lives of the numerous
passengers which were placed in the most imminent peril. The
galvanic telegraph between Slough and Paddington, which had been
damaged, and rendered for the tune utterly useless, by the wires
and posts having been severed and broken, was repaired during
the night, and by nine o'clock this morning it was again in full
operation.
' '

To give some idea of the extraordinary speed at which the
express train was proceeding at the moment of the upset of the
carriages, we may mention that the preceding mile was " timed"
by Mr. Bristow, of Haverfsrdwest, and it was gone over in only
59. seconds, being at the rate of between 69 and 70 ranee per hour.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.
ROUSE OF COMMONS, June 18.
NEW ZEALAND—ADJOURNED DEBATE.
On the reading of the order of the day for resuming the de-
bate on Mr. C. Buller's motion respecting New Zealand,
Captain ROUS said it was mot his fault that the subject had
not been brought before the House at an earlier period.
His object was to give the Directors of the New Zealand Com-
pany an oportunity of explaining the charges which he and
others had brought against them. He begged to compliment
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman for the able speech which be
made last night on bringing forward the subject, and regretted
of pure philanthropy. He said that the New Zea-
landersthat he hadwe
re attackedcann cannibals
a lt hse
andC o l onnoi
notorious
-r person of a gen-
tlemansirous of bringing them to a state of civibsation.7( A laugh. )
l'offiusee.hienrst,heirnd that he was
His Hon. Friend had given them terrible descriptions of the
New Zealanders. which they did not deserve. The other day
he met Mr. Browne, who informed him that last year he saw
400 acres of wheat entirely cultivated by the natives, and they
were able to sell the produce at 2s. per. bushel. He stated
this to show the state of civilisation at which they had arrive d.
The character of the East Anglians, in the time of Julius
part
s country
andn try Gallantfor c Memberommerc commercial
then
purposes. wdetailCresar, would correspond with that given by the Hen. and
Learned Gentleman of the New Zealanders of the present
day
into a detail of various negotiations which had, from
time to time, been made with the New Zealanders on
nt
In 1834 they received a British flag from Captain
etaem. The Honourable
bert,
of
When the New Zealand Company was f of (as we understood) her Majesty'sortned ship Trafalgar.
Ih.
in 1838, the
former society was merged into the new one, and 40,0001. worth
of the new trade was made over to the old shareholders. Now

he should be glad to know what consideration war given for
the 40,0001., for if he was not grievously mistaken, at the time
the new Company was established, the original societ y was not
possessed of land in New Zealand that was worth more than 100/.
in the market. When Colonel Wakefield went out, twelve ships
followed him, which carried out 216 cabin passengers and 900
labourers ; and it was a singular circumstance that these ships
did not know their destination till they called at an interme-
diate port. These cabin passengers were persons who had been
accustomed to the luxuries of life in their own country, and were
landed on a barren land, amidst a population of savages, with
scarcely any preparation for their reception. It was most ex-
traordinary what negotiations had been entered into with
human beings of the lowest scale in existence, with respect to the
purchase of land between the 41st and 43d degree of latitude—
( A laugh )—just as if they knew the meaning of such terms.
Mr. Carrington, the agent of the New Zealand Company, said
that the purchase-money was never paid, and that the promises
of the New Zealand Company were looked upon with the
greatest distrust. The nature of the articles that passed in
these negotiations was rather strange, comprising knives,
spoons, combs, and no less than 144 Jews'-harps. In 1839
Lord Normanby appointed Captain Hobson governor of the
colony, and sent out orders, graphic in composition, but not
very sound in principle. (The lion. Member here read ex-
tracts from the document in question, which, from his posi-
tion, his back being turned to the gallery, were wholly
inaudible.) If they, instead of issuing such choice instruc-
tions, had laid an embargo on the Company's ships. and not
put—to use a homely expression—the cart before the horse,
and if the Governor, instead of withdrawing to an uninhabited
corner of the island, had settled where the great mass of the
population were collected, they would not have struck
so fatal a blow to the vitality of the colony.
By the treaty of Waitanga the natives were given all the rights
and privileges of Englishmen, and a right and title to their
lands, but the Governor turned round and said to them, " You
shall not sell your land to an Englishman nor to a native, but
to me, at 75 per cent.," so that it was absurd to say that they
had endowed them with the privileges of British subjects.
What right had they to exact such a monstrous tax as this
from the unfortunate natives? Then the Government could
not grant lands to the New Zealand Company which they
themselves did not possess. No one in that House, or in the
country, could understand the difficulties which any one,
placed in a responsible situation in New Zealand. hail to con-
tend with. When Captain Fitzroy went out he found the
treasury bankrupt, the colonial accounts neglected, that the
English had fled before the natives in an engagemer:t, and
that 5,6001., out of a debt of 25,0001., were owing to Cl es ern-
ment officers. Placed then in such an embarrassing pseition,
he (Captain Rous) considered that he had acted to the best of
his ability—that he could not have acted better than he had done
for the public good. He had another charge against the New
Zealand Company respezting the harbour duties which they
had imposed, and which had had the effect of driving ships
from the ports of the colony to those of the Society Islands,
and, besides, no country being so well adapted for smuggling,
tobacco was sold by many of the natives at a shilling a pound,
whilst honest shopkeepers could scarcely sell it at 2s. It was so
with spirits, which were easily smuggled into the colony, and
sold at reduced prices, so great were the facilities offered to
smugglers. Would it not be more just to abolish duties
which gave so inefficient a protection to the revenue, and to
adopt in their place a property-tax. Capt. Fitzroy was blamed
for not bringing the parties who took a part in the Wairou mas-
sacre, to justice. Why he did not arrive in New Zealand
until a year after that occurrence. As he could not try the
parties he thought it best to virtually acquit them. He believed
that Capt. Fitzroy would gain golden opinions before he died.
for his conduct in New Zealand. Then the New Zealand
Company had received a large sum of money illegally, for they
disposed of great quantities of land, and realised large sums of
money before their charter was granted. They stated that
their capital was 300,000 e whereas it did not exceed 16t),0001.
His next charge was equally serious, because it was their duty
as Gentlemen to protect those who suffered from it.
( The Gallant Member then read a statement published by
the New Zealand Company, stating that emigrants on their
arrival in the colony would find the officer of the Company
ready to give them useful advice and employment in the ser-
vice of the Company.) Was not this a strong inducement to
ablebodied men to leave this country? Instead, however, of
carrying out the promises which they put forward the agent of
the Company found that he could not give those who had gone
out sufficient employment, and was obliged to send them twent
miles into the interior for the purpose of being employed in the
clearing of land; but they returned at the end of a week wear
of the employment to which they had been sent, and means
had to be taken to obtain suitable employment for them from
landholders who were paid by the Company for this
purpose. These then were his charges against
the Company, and all he could say was that if
they were unfounded—that the documents which he-had read
were not true, he should be happy to make an ample apology
for having brought them before the House. With respect to
the report of the House of Commons, he had given notice of a
motion to the effect—that the Company had acted irregularly
in disposing of land to emigrants in the mariner they did. He
was sure neither side of the House would allow the rights and
privileges of the British Crown to be trampled upon, and he
therefore relied with confidence upon their agreeing with him.
that a factious party like the New Zealand Company ought not
to be allowed to trample and tyrannise over those whom they
had unfortunately got:into their control.
Mr. AGLIONBY would not deny that he had some pecu-
niary interest in the New Zealand Company, and perhaps it
would be thought unbecoming in him to take part in the de-
bate, but he could assure the House that the considerations
which had induced him to join the New Zealand Society were
far from being of a pecuniary nature. He had allied himself
with the Society at the earnest entreaties of a number of re-
spected friends, who had represented to him the good the co-
lony was likely to do to a number of poor persons in this coun-
try, and having been now for three er four years connected
with the Society, he could state that he had never for one
moment regretted his alliance with it, because he believed he
had all along been associated with an excellent body of ho-
nourable and high-minded men, for the purpose of carrying
out what he believed to be a most benevolent
object.—( Hear, hear.) The Gallant Officer had stated, in his
usually clear and straightforward manner, the opinion he had
formed of the proceedings and conduct of the New Zealand
Company, and had no less frankly added that all he wanted
was an explanation. He (Mr. Aglionby) fully believed him,
and he could assure the Gallant Captain that his complaints
were, one and all, founded on misapprehension ; but the present
was neither a convenient nor an equitable time for him to enter
into a vindication of the New Zealand Company. If he there-
fore merely now gave a plain and flat denial of the facts the
Gallant Member had stated, it was from no disrespect for the
character and integrity of the Gallant Officer, but because
if he were to attempt any vindication he should be met by
unpleasant and unfair assertions frem some Hon. Gentlemen
who might have received information on the subject from the
same source as the Gallant Officer, which would no doubt be
followed by counter assertions from the Hon. Gentlemen con-
nected with the New Zealand Company, and thus the debate
would resolve itself into a petty squabble of a personal nature.—
( Hear, hear.) But most of the points to which the Gallant
Captain had alluded had been fairly investigated before a proper
tribunal, and that investigation had resulted in the entire and
unequivocal exoneration of the New Zealand Company. At the
proper time, however, even in that House, which appeared
to him (Mr. Aglionby) a most inconvenient tribunal for
entering into details, he should be prepared to enter into full
and minute explanations, but this could only be done by him
when the House felt disposed to go into committee on the
matter. The Gallant Officer had evidently a misconcep-
tion, too, of the financial circumstances of the New Zealand
Company, or the Gallant Officer would never have ventured
to make so bold and sweeping an assertion as that the Company
had swindled large bodies of people out of their money and out
of their land. He did not know where the Gallant Officer had
collected his details, but he wished the Gallant Officer, before
going into committee, would refer to the various papers and docu-
ments which had been published on the subject, and he was sure
the Gallant Officer would find that he had fallen into error.
But he could excuse the Gallant Officer, because it was quite
evident to him that the Gallant Officer had been misled by
parties who were in the habit of making Members of that Home
vehicles for their own misrepresentations. Down to the time
of Captain Hobson's arrival in the colony there was perfect
harmony between the colonists and the natives ; so that they
were, in fact, as one family. It was not yet too late to restore
that state of things; but it could only be effected by an entire
abandonment of the principles which have governed hitherto
the colonial department of the Government. The colonists
had suffered much. He hoped it was not too late to place them
again in a state of security and prosperity. He implored the
Government and the House not to go now into minute
questions, but to consider the best means of promoting the
interests of the settlers and the natives. He implored
the House for God's sake to listen to the evidence on both sides,
and not to be governed by the testimony of one party alone.
Before he sat down he would refer to the case of Dr. Evans,
who memorialised the Colonial-office, praying to be informed
as to the position in which those settlers would be placed who
had made purchases from the natives? The only answer he
received was, that the Ministers were about to send out a new
governor with full instructions. Was that a sufficient answer
to an Englishman who had embarked all his property in settling
his family in that country ?—(Hear, hear.) He again im-
plored the Government to reconsider their policy, and to take
measures to promote the prosperity of the colony, and the wel-
fare of the country.—(Hear, hear. )
When th- lion. Member sat down, several Members rose to
address the House, but upon repeated calls for the" new Mem-
ber," who rose at the same time, they gave way to
Mr. BARFLY (of Leominster), who said, that although
he had no present interest in the Company, he shared with every
Member of the House in an anxious desire to see our colonies
flourish, and the system of misgovernment which had so much
depreciated their importance put an end to.--( Hear, hear.)
He believed that the object of the New Zealand Company
was to render a most valuable service to the country.—( Hear. )
Bus he did not think that any just complaint could be made
against Lord Stanley or those who co-operated with him in the
Colonial-office.—(Hear.) He was well acquainted with the
mode of doing business in that office, and he could speak for
the urbanity, politeness, and attention of the Noble Lord,
and the Right Hon. Gentleman the Under-Secretary for the
Colonies. He approved in the main of the Noble Lord's
colonial policy, but he must express his regret, that the in-
consistent policy which was occasionally pursued at home, was
followed in respect to our colonial possessions. The same
policy which at one time encouraged the agriculturists to hope for
a perpetual protection, and another time induce the free-traders
to expect the speedy abolition of all protection was followed by
giving to Canada a free importation of corn to this country.
He would not undertake the defence of
he thought that the
New Zealand Com-
pany
as a merely commercial body, but
fate of a large body of our countrymen, settled in a distant
land, had a claim upon the grand inquest of the nation.—
( Hear, hear). He had no wish to attach unnecessary blame
to Captain Fitzroy, but he must beg to call the attention of
the House to the deplorable change wbich had taken place in
the feelings of the nation since the arrival of that officer_ in the
colony—the events which followed the massacre of Wairou—to
the unredeemable paper currency, and to unpunished murders.
They ought to give the inhabitants of New Zealand something
more of what resembled an Englishman's idea of a representa-
tive institution, instead of the council that at present existed.
—(Hear, hear.) With regard to the settlers, they ought to
send them a sufficient force to set their minds perfectly at ease
with respect to themselves and their families, or make them
friendly with the natives. With regard to the natives, there
ought not to exist the slightest feeling against them ; he would
have them treated with firmness, but at the same time with
the greatest kindness. They ought to he treated as spoiled
children. He did not admit that the provisions of the treaty
should extend to the middle or southern islands, ash ch erC
altogether admitted to be quite exempt from it. ‘Vitl. respect
to the missionary, he was not one of those who considered that
the call of God and the conversion of the inhabitants nught
not to be the first object in the colonisation of an island. He
had some experience of missionaries, but the intolerance of
uneducated men, as many of the missionaries were, ought not
to be entirely depended upon. He would give to them all
that was due to them as ministers of the Gospel, but he would
justly suppress their desire to interfere in secular affairs.—
( Hear, hear.) Worldly aggrandisement was manifesting itself
in too great a degree in the grants of land. With regard to
the Company the Government ought to be prepared to buy
up all that would be sufficient to give security to those who
resided in New Zealand. They ought to increase the grant,
and make it an humble instrument in raising New Zealand to
that high and important position among the nations of the
world, which it was destined to fill, when perhaps the institu-
tions of this country may be indebted to the perseverance and
gratitude of the descendants of the New Zealanders. (
hear.) There were few subjects on which he would have felt
it expedient to have troubled the House for such a length of
time; he thanked the House for its attention.—(Cheers.)

Mr. HOPE made a few observations in explanation, afte
which

Sir R. INGLIS said that though he was not one of those
who were in the habit of complimenting young Members, he
could not rise without congratulating the Hon. Member viho
had just at down, on the tone, temper, and talent of the
speech which he had just made.—( Hear, hear.) He could not,
at the same time, say that he should concur with him in the
conclusions which he had drawn, though be liked the manner
in which he arrived at them. He would state how much he
differed from the Hon. Member for Cockermouth, and still more
from hi: lion. and Learned Friend, to whose speech he listened
with perfect attention yesterday evening. The principal error
in the speech of his Hon. Friend, and upon which he (Sir R.
Inglis) held that the falsity of his conclusions entirely depended,
was the assumption that when they were dealing with the New
Zealanders, they were dealing with people with whom it was
not possible nor fit that the people of England should put them-
selves on any species of equality. He described them as savages
and cannibals, who, from their degraded state of ignorance,
were totally incapable of appreciating the value of land, and
truly incompetent to make a bargain, which they themselves
professed to respect and desired to preserve. He was not
prepared to come to the conclusion to which the
Honourable Member wished to lead the House, that every
acre of er which the natives had not carried the spade or plough
was as much the property of the New Zealand Company, or of
any first corner, as if that Company were purely and absolutely
the inhabitants. Several years ago, when the question was first
brought forward, he helieved in 18.38, he (Sir R. Inglis) was
one of those who contended that they had no more right to pro-
fess to colonize new Zealand than they had a right to profess to
colonize the kingdom of France. He made that statement
tinder no anticipation that any Honourable Member would take
that illustration, and adopt it as his own, as his Honourable
Friend did last night. From the moment when, whether
right or wrong, they reccgnized the independence of New
Zealand, from that moment. they had no right to deal with it as
'he New Zealand Company now wished to deal with it.. The
first discovery of a country was sufficient to give the nation
which had discovered it the right of pre-occupancy as against all
other nations, but never had it been contended that they hail a
right to claim property as against the inhabitants of the soil.
How different was that from the doctrine which his Honourable
Friend laid down last night? lie said that the New Zealanders
had no idea of the sale of property, and then he rather incon-
sistently proceeded to maintain the statements of the New
Zealand Company with respect to the purchase which they had
made from those whom, by his admission, knew nothing of the
sale of property. It was very convenient for the New Zealand
Company to say that the natives had no knowledge of property ;
but if that be true with respect to the area which still remained
open, surely it must be equally true with respect to
the property which it had become possessed of. The
whole of the property purchased, consisting of some millions,
hail been obtained for the sum of 7,358/. 7s. 7d. The price
which they sold it at, amounted to 128,1361. These were the
protectors of the natives of New Zealand ; these were the per-
SODS who complained of the missionaries for instigating the
natives against them, and of Captain Fitzroy for taking their
part. With respect to the allegations made againras
they
missionaries, he thought they could be met as easily as
were made. He agreed with the Hon. Member for I.eominster
that the glory of God was the main object to be regarded in
the conversion of these unfortunate creatures, and, he believed,
that that was a truth recognised by the great bulk of Mem-
bers on both sides of the House. He would now ask any man
to state what was the difference in the state of New Zealand
when it was visited by Captain Cooke, or even later,
in 1814, and its present condition ?—( Hear, hear.)
eo recently as 1814 a white man could not lend on it, or walk
alone in the country w ithout endangering his life ; while, on
the other hand, in the past year, the Bishop of New Zealand
had walked 300 miles in the visitation of his diocese, and in a
situation where it was impossible to procure a conveyance, and
during all that time he experienced the greatest hospitality—
hospitality that would do honour to the most civilised people in
the world.—((year, hear.) What, then, he would ask, could
this change be ascribed to but the influence of the missionaries ?
In the northern island there were even at present 33,000
Christians, 14,000 of whom were attending school, and there
were no less than 3.200 of them regular conamunicants. He,
therefore thought that he had made out a case in their favour
which entitled them to the gratitude of the House for those
glorious results. It had been said by the Hon. Member for
Liskeard that the missionaries took the lead in speculations for
the purchase of land, and these were Church of England mis-
sionaries. He (Sir 11. highs) was not in a position to say
much of the missionaries of the Church of Rome, as their resi-
dence there had been but very recent; nor had he sufficient
information to enable him to do so ; but there was this impor-
tant difference between them and the Wesleyan missionaries
on the one hand, and the missionaries of the Established
Church on the other, that the former were remora:see from
station to station, while the latter settled down, with their
wives and families, in a particular locality. There was, there-
fore, he contended, a necessity thus imposed upon them to in-
vest a certain portion of their salaries in the purchase of laud.
It had been stated that 196,000 acres were possessed
by the missionaries; but when every deduction was
made, it would be found that their portion was
less than one-half of what the Government allowed
to the other missionaries in New South Wales. The greater
part, too, of this land was described (and he believed most ac-
curately) as nothing better than moving sand. This led him
to the proportion of cultivated and uncultivated land in. New
Zealand. It had been stated that there were 78,000,000
of acres altogether in the country, of which 600100,009
were cultivable; but he apprehended that that state-
ment could not be sustained by the actual survey.
lye had it on the authority of an eminent na-
turalist who had visited the country, that the proportion of cul-
tivable land was far less than in any other country in the world;
in fact that there was not more than five per cent. of the
whole island that could be cultivated. Supposing therefore.
that Mr. Fairbairn or Mr. Taylor hail received a grant of
5,600 acree of this kind of land, he did not consider that they
had received a greater amount of remuneration than they
would have received from Government, had they been situated
in any other part of our South Australian colonies. lie
thought that they were entitled to be supported. There never
was any irregularity proved against them, and he thought they
aid not deserve the running fire which hail been kept up
against them in the speech of the Hon. Member for Liskeard.
With respect to the son of Mr. W. Clarke he did not consider
that he was entitled to the censure which had been passed
upon him, unless it was for the atrocious crime of being a young
aim. lie thought that no one celled be got so well qualified to
fill his situation. He had now to thank the House for the in-
dulgence which had been. given to him in making these re-
mark, in defence of the missionaries. He would now, therefore,
say to the House that if there was one duty more incumbent
on them than another it was that they should not avail them-
selves of their position—that position which had been conferred
MI them from on high for other purposes—to sanction arc inva-
sion of the lands of a weak and defenceless people.
Throughout the speech of the Hon. Member for Liskeard
there was an utter disregard of all parties concerned, with the
exception of the New Zealand Company, and of a certain por-
tion of their fellow-subjects who were in New Zealand. He
was willing to admit there could be few public companies con-
taining a greater number of respectable names ; and he ad-
mitted, also, that they were not jobbers in the market, as the
shareholders of other companies were. They were not gam-
bling or jobbing speculators. He thought that the gentlemen
who composed that company had no unfair object in view
in joining it but to gain an honourable profit ; and he
was sure they had no wish to invade the rights of others. He
was not, therefore, one of those who wished to run down the
New Zealand Company. He would now briefly advert to an-
other subject which he had already slightly glanced at, namely,
the right of the natives to these lands. He had it on the autho-
rity of one who had travelled among them, that there was ma
people in the world who possessed a more keen sense of tine
rights of property. They had, he might almost say, a hstre-
ditary sense of those rights. Was he to be told, then, that teme
people, who had a name for every hill, every valley, and every
mountain in the country, that they had no sense
of the rights of property ? He would beg leave to read
a petition from Mr. Busby, a missionary, which he was pre-
vented from doing that evening, when he had presented it. to
the House. (The Hon. Member here read the petition.) He
(Sir R. Inglis) could not understand, after the unbiassed. state-
ments of these respectable authorities, the grounds wb:sch had
been put forward by certain parties that the natives had no
right to the land of which they disposed, or that from their
ignorance they should be deprived of its full valne.—( Hear.)
lie had, in conclusion, to to thank the House foe the kind in-
dulgence which they always extended to him, bet especially to-
night, while he went through those minute details which he
felt bound to refer to. The Hon. Gentleman concluded by
giving his decided negative to the resolutions brought forward
by the lion. Member for Liskeard.
Mr. HAWES said it was not often that colonial subjects oc-
cupied the attention of the House, and he was glad to find
that the present one had come so prominently before their
notice, as it involved not only the principles of their policy in.
New Zealand, but indeed all their colonial policy. In taking a
part in the discussion of this question he would not be influenced
by any party factions or motives. Before he went further, he
would address himself to one or two points on which the Right
Honourable Baronet had spoken in a manner calculated to
excite prejudice, if not delusion. He had said that the New
Zealand Company had put 121,000/, into their pockets, having
sold land for 128,00 e/., which they had purchased for little more
than 7,000/. But it should be remembered that the 7,000/.
was not to be considered the value of the land ; subsequent
to their purchase, large sums of money had been expended
upon surveys, roads, bridges, and other improvements,
all calculated to give a value to the land. He
had had a paper put that evening into Isis hand containing but
a sketch of the amount which the Company had expended upon
emigration, transmission of ships, surveys, public works, wages,
and trusts of churches and parochial charities. The sum there
mentioned was 377,0004, but he had been assured, and he felt
convinced'of the truth of the statement, that that estimate was
200.000/..short of the sum actually spent by them. Again the
Right. Hon. Baronet said that nothing was mentioned by his
Friend the Member for Liskeard, but the rights of the New
Zealand Company. That assertion, he must be permitted to
say, was not correct ; other, and equally sacred interests, had
been discussed, but even if the charge were true, which he em-
phatically denied, his Hon. Friend had bnt considered
the interests and rights of the New Zealand Company in-
volved in the right of forming missionary establish-
ments in their colony. He thought the Colonial-office had
made serious errors, and to them he would now call, and, it
possible, keep the attention of the House. A report had been
laid on the table, expository of the course pursued by the
Government towards the colony in question. In the spirit
and intentions of that report he entirely concurred ; but
changes had taken place, and changes of such a character as
precluded the applicability of the recommendations of the
report to the altered circumstances of the colony. The speech. of the Under-Secretary of State had given bins no satisfaction.
He had expected that the Hon. Gentleman would have, at
least, addressed himself to the evils of the colony, and admit-
ting, have shadowed out some means of remedying them.
—( Hear, hear.) A part, however, of that speech
it was incumbent on him to notice. He had said
that the Member for Liskeard had described the natives of
New Zealand as debased. What he said was, that while they
were not as morose, vitiated, or unsociable as the North Ame-
rican Indians, they were inferior in the arts of civilization and
of war. But even these admissions of deficiency he turned into
arguments in their favour. They were easily to be engaged its
trade, and showed great capacity for all the arts of civilisatiotta.
Such mess the present state of the colony. But a few years
since it had been prosperous. He had before him the accounts
of the ships that left the harbour in the year 1844, at which
period the inhabitants were thriving and its trade increasing.
But, by a dispatch of Captain Fitzroy, dated October les,
he feund the very reverse. It was there stated that there was
no export, no funds. No titles to the land were issued.
The salaries were several months in arrear, and
the local Government had no resources. (Hear. )
Surely, when such an alarming change had occurred within t.
Nothing,
short period, the House ought to have heard from the Govern-
ment the reasons or the remedies for thedecline.
however, had been given. The entire speech of the Under
Secretary was absorbed in a defence of the Colonial Office—a.
theto
touch co l oy
upon
( H
theaterea r
p
petty
Governmentreo f the pettiest
Asthe
oints, he would himself discuss them. It was the actual ire.
pheattdies nott "i
venturedcers of
f
flux of settlers into the colony that had been the prime and
original cause of all the subsequent disasters. In 1813, 'Air.
Bushy was appointed president, and in consequence of the Italia
of questionable settlers, had been obliged to seek the inter( aTeee
of the Government at home. At that period .the missir melees,
of whom he wished to speak with all respect. but who,' he must
say, did not deserve the credit which the Right Hr ,nourable
Baronet had accorded them, had opposed colonization generally.
The internal wars," said Mr. Busby, " had depe pulated the
country." The missionaries could, there,ore, have

infused but little of that spirit of Christianity
which should have pre-eminently distinguished them. Mr.
Busley's plan was then a confederation of native chiefs. Such
a system was absurd, because the English would have virtually
retained their Governor under the guise of a native ruler. New
Zealand never was an independency. The British Crown had
invariably asserted its supremacy there. The Company had
but exercised the right to which all Englishmen were entitled
of colonising an uninhabited and dependant State. The
Church Slissionary Society had been the first to oppose this in-
disputabk right, opposed as it had always been to colonisation
generally. And why ? Because they had become large pos-
sessors of land, and, as interested parties, they ought not to
have interfered with a Company which had been the first to in-
troduce British sovereignty into the islands. Such interference
was unwise and unfortunate. If such was the state of things,
the Government were not to be thanked for interfering ;
they had been driven to it, it was their own iu-
terest, and, after resisting and refusing all demands, they
had been at length compelled to interpose. When the Right
Hon. Baronet had said that a State larger than Great Britain,
yet containing not more than 100,000 persons, was so fully
occupied as not to have any waste lands, he could surely not be
serious. The colony comprised en extent of 78,000,000 of
acres, of which the New Zealand Company originally possessed
themselves of 20,000,000 acres. That right they had, how-
ever, waived, when the Government asserted the sovereignty
of the island, and established its rule there. It therefore must
be admitted by the Right Hon. Gentleman the Under-Secre-
tary of State, that the waste lands were either native right, or
'vested in the Crown.
Mr. HOPE—No, no.
Mr. i=l AWES—Oh ! If the Hon. Member denied that the
title was vested in the Crown, the whole conduct of the Go-
vernment was manifestly unjustifiable. Some years ago, when
supporting a measure which comprehended the whole gist of
the propositions now advanced, he (Mr. Hawes) totally differ-
ing in politics, as he ever had, from the Hon. Member, divided
in a minority, and he found on reference to the Parliamentary
Votes on that oreasion the names of H. Baring, G. W. Hope,
and W. Fe Gladstone—the question which those Members, in
unison with him, supported, being the self-same as that now
propounded by his Friend the Hon. Member for Liskeard. In
1842 a similar vote was given by the Hon. Member, but in
1845 he chose to forget that conduct, and showed a
vacillation of which he could not have believed him capable.
That was the information he had received, and which he hale
endeavoured to obtain from authentic sources. To this mo-
anent the affairs of the Company had been left divided and in
• eonfasion, and they had eftet received one single farthing under
the agreement up to the present hour. He was induced to
ask, what authority had interr sed the difficulty which had led
to the present state of affairs in that colony? If the object of
the Government was a single one, why had it not put things
in order ? fie was persuaded that the whole of the bad ma-
-nagement of New Zealand was, more or less, to be ascribed to
the home Government. It followed from the system of colo-
nial legislation. They had too much to attend to, and they
evinced a coldness to listen with interest to the concerns of
parties in the colonies. That was a great fault, but nothing
else could be expected from the present system of colonial ma-
nagement. The home Government were imperfectly ac-
quainted with colonial usages and wants, and it was impossible
-that any other result could happen than what had already oc-
curred in New Zealand. He was one of those who some time
ago associated with other gentlemen, generally to promote co-
lonisation, and they intended to promote a superintendence over
the affairs of the colony, considering that that was a
point to which their attention could be directed
with advantage.—(Hear, hear.) They made application to the
•Government of the day for the legislative sanction to form
themselves into an independent association, but were refused
because they were not a joint-stock company. The present
:New Zealand Company were actually forced to become specu-
lators ifi the land, and it was the Government who compelled
them to it. They had proposed to the Government to become
an incorporated company. with large and liberal views, similar to
those which had been founded in America years ago, and
which had flourished ever since. The colony of New Zealand
-would never subMit for a moment to the injustice of the Go-
'anent at home if they possessed power to defend and assert
their rights. As an instance of how colonies flourished when
they were placed beyond the immediate reach and control of
the home Government was the possessions in the East Indies.
The East ',die Company was a chartered association under an
Act of Parliament, and the colony over which they had juris-
diction was notorious for having enjoyed a long and almost
uninterrupted course of prosperity. He did not know a single
instance of a colony in which the Government had interfered
'which was not brought into distress and danger and ultimately
to ruin. What was the cause of the present distress in New
Zealand? Similar causes led to similar results, and
the constant interference on the part of the Govern-
ment was the primary cause. It was impossible
properly to govern people at so great a distance, of whose
wants and necessities nothing or but little was known. It was
pa clewed to send out a new Governor to New Zealand, unfet-
tered by instructions from home. He was glad to hear it, for
instinections to New Zealand Governors had led to a vast deal
of hiberioue trifling. He was not, however, pleased with a
Governor being placed under the control of the Colonial-office,
and he was sure the country would never be satisfied with such
an appointment. He believed that New Zealand presented an
opportunity for establishing a municipal institution, and thus
laying the basis of a constitutional government, which, when left
to itself, would realize a greater amount of property than could be
looked forward to from any other source. The best had not yet
been done—the proper course had not yet been taken. If the posi-
etion of these fittensive islands in the southern seas was looked
est, the establishment of an independent Government there
would lay the foundation of a powerful empire. He trusted
that something more than a mere vote being come to on the
resolutions which had been proposed would be realised. He
considered that the ceuntry was now in a better position to dis-
cuss tise great question of Colonial Government than it had
everbefoa'e been. Theclaims of New Zealand for anindependent
Government would gradually fall with more strength upon the
Legislature, until eventually they would be forced to adopt one
of two courses, either an independent Governor must be ap-
pointed, or a system of representation similar to the. British
House of Commons must be constituted.—(Hear.) A spirit
was springing up in different colonies, which would lead them
'to demand a greater share of independent Government than
they now possessed; and he should be happy to see the time
arrive, when the emancipation of these colonies from home in-
terference was accomplished. It had been suggested that from
time to time all the statistics and other information connected
„with the colonies should he obtained, so that a digested report
ns ight be had of all the circumstances going on in these places.
was afraid, however, that the Colonial-office already had
melee business to attend ro than it could well perform, and was
satisfied that the sooner it was relieved of some of it, the better
would it be for the interest and welfare of those colonies.
Sir HOWARD DOUGLAS said he had read all the volumi-
nous papers which had been presented to the House on the
affairs of New Zealand, and he therefore rose to address the
House with a due sense of the importance of the subject before
it. He should not, however, occupy their time in referring to
documents to bear out his views, as they had been quoted at
egreat length by the Under Secretary for the Home Depart-
oment (MT. Hope), by the Hon. Member for Liskeard (Mr.
aC. Buller), and by other Hon. Members. The subject of
mew Zealand had occupied his attention for many years, and he
spoke with peculiar interest respecting it, as he had the
honour to command the troops serving in that colony.
No Member of that House, or any subject of the realm, could
attach higher importance to a properly managed system of
emigration than he did. It was because he was of this opinion.
and because he had the interests of that colony, which was a
fruitful one, at heart, that he deprecated and condemned that
rash, that unauthorised, that ill-conducted lawless scheme of
colonisation which had been attempted in that colony by the
ItTew Zealand Company eagl the failure of which had been the
cause of all that had hap7ned, and all that might happen, of
a serious nature, in that colony. In support of this opinion he
quoted a passage in the report of the Committee last year on
New Zealand affairs, which stated that the Company were
:guilty of impropriety and irregularity in sending out persons
to the colony in the way they had done. For the words
" impropriety " and " irregularity" he would substitute " rash"
aewl " lawless." It was the duty of Lord Glenelg to have
stepped, and cf Lord Normanby to have adopted strong mea-
suns to have prevented any colonisation without the Queen's
.authority ; and had he ( Sir H. Douglas) been there he would
have sent those who attempted to carry out so objectionable a
system to New South Wales.—( A laugh.)
Lord J. RUSSELL—That would have been against the law.
Sir FL DOUGLAS—He repeated that he would have sent
them there until colonisation could be adopted with the
Queerr!a consent, and until the course they proposed to
adopt veas not illegal. He then referred to letters sent
by Lord John Russell and the Marquis of Normanby to
Captain Hobson, recognising the strong claims of the natives,
who had made some progress in the arts of and
recommending measures for the proper management of the af:
lairs of the coloey. The Company caesed the Government
to [adopt measures for its own protection and for that of the
colonists. The Company proceeded in their undertaking with-
out the authority of the Government, and now called
upon them to break the guarantee which they (the
Government) save to the inhabitants of New Zeartod.
Jiy what right had Sierra Leone been held but by the same
circumstances ? and it was a new principle of celonial law re-
specting native rights which had been promulgated by the Hon.
Member opposite ; a law not to be found in Vaughan or Black-
stone's Commentaries; he denied its authenticity, he suspected
its origin. It had been introduced from the land where the
black man was a slave, and the red man hunted and tracked like
the wild beast of the forest, and he knew how it had travelled
from those parts. It was carrying out a principle adopted there ;
but the tenure of Canada was the reverse of that. He called
upon the New Zealaral Company to surrender their charter;
and having thought much on the subject. and studied it much,
he came to the conclusion that no good result in the way of
colonisation would be effected, until the Queen's authority was
made paramount, with a colonial representation.—( Cheers.)
Lord HOWICK said that he concurred so much in the re •
commendation of the Hon. and Gallant Member, as to the ne-
ceesity of giving to the colony the benefits of self-government,
that he would not follow the Hon. and Gallant Member
through the earlier parts of his speech. But he must say, that
he hart beard with great pleasure the speech of the Hon. Gen-
tleman the Member for Leominster (Mr. Barkley), who had
addressed the House in terms and in a temper which left but
oee impression that the House would be greatly benefited by
that Hon. Gentleman taking, in future, an active part in
their discussions.—(Cheers.) He agreed with that Hon.
:Member in thinking that it was not the case of the New Zea-
land Company the House had to consider, but the interest of
'the esolonies of this country, separately and in the aggregate.
He thought that the conduct of the Government towards New
Zealand was faulty throughout, and ought to be retraced.—
: (_ cheers.) The Hon. Gentleman the Under-Secretary for
she Colonies had stated that the NOble Lord now at the head
oaf the Colonial Department was unjustly accused for the faults
esf his predecessors. Now he (Lord Howick) denied
-that statement'. le was perfectly prepared to show
.0121 the policy of
what the Noble polpie ryeceding Governments was such
Lord's
was entirely adverse to it.—( Hear,
• heara ) He did not think that any colonial Government could
he entirely free from error, but that which appeared to him to
.lie the most free from error was the policy of his Noble Friend,
Vass Member for London (Lord .1. Russell.) The dispatches of
his Noble Friend were proofs of the statesmanlike views of his
Government. The great fault was in the appointment of in-
esflcniieonyt
for(iffi officers._—hin(Cheers.)han
tehtherrre did not blame Lord
Ointment of such a gen-
*Asian as Captain Fitzirloi,woaunlddenta!taatt wasi fault enough.—
iatthteime of the night
(cheers and laughter.)
take up the time of the House by detailingt
?hove were
eon-
seqiencee of Captain Fitzroy's Government.
.ciensly exposed in the documents read by his Hon. Friend ffi-
sutht
Member fur Lambeth. He would not now go int 6 a discussion
a
the qaestion whether the Company or the Government were
matt to blanse. But he thought that the country was indebted
to the Company for having secured those magnificent islands to
the British Crown.—( Hear, hear.) He was bound also to say,
that be thought their plan of colonisation showedence, great
wisdom in its design, and great perseverance, prud and
moderation in the mode of carrying it out.—( Cheers. )
He
was surprised to hear the Hon. and Gallant Gentlema
weren
to ( Sbe
ir
H. Douglas) say that the disasters of
New Zealand
attributed to the rashness and lavishness of the Companyrecom-
,
whilst the same Gallant Officer in the same
breath
mended that the whole of the Company
ee shou
alnddble o,t once)
traceported to New South Wales.—(Chrs auehter.
The facts were that the management of the Company was en-
.lirely successful until the officers of the Government made it a
g ystem to thwart and annoy in every way tbe efforts of the
Company, and to render the situation of the settlers uncom-
km, table and insecure.—( Hear. hear.) In the northern part
of the island She Company did not interfere many respect, and
if neslything wrong took place there it was owing to the mis-
ses* nacemarat of tie Government. There was a sort of

irregular colonisation taking place there ; horrible
crimes had not been unfrequent, and scenes of anar-
chy and confusion followed each other. Such scenes
took place in 1832, and took place in New Zealand, that it was
not unfrequent to see the heads of the natives brought into the
museums in this country as matters of curiosity, and it was
found necessary to make a prohibition to their importation.
In 1842, there was a vast improvement, but since the establish-
ment of British authority there things have got worse, when
the New Zealanders had nothing to do with it. The Govern-
ment of that country must have been ill conducted, or else such
an alteration for the worse would not have taken place. If there
had been a good policy and a proper firmness such a state of
things would not have followed. It was all attributable to the
erroneous policy pursued there. With regard to the land case,
it was allowed by Lord Stanley himself that it was the unset-
tled state of that matter that produced all these evils. The
Hon. Gentleman (the Member for London) had stated that the
treaty of Waitanga was thoroughly comprehended, but if the
House permitted he would be able to meet those arguments. His
(Lord Howick's) complaint was that neither those who had
been entrusted with the colony, nor her Majesty's Govern-
ment, had understood the paramount importance in colonization
of the proper administration of waste lands. The principle of
wise colonisation was, that of selling land to be distributed
to those who really meant to use it; and by applying the
price so received in great works necessary for the successful
occupation of land. Had the Government understood
this system of colonization they would have immediately ob-
tained froin the nati acs of New Zealand their acquiescence
in the disposal of the land. By this means, all mischievous
dealing in land would have been done away with. The laws
respecting real property in this' country were quite unintelli-
gible to the natives of New Zealand. He (Lord Howick)
recollected, when he was in the New Zealand Committee, one
witness incidentally said that he knew a chief in New Zealand
who had stated that he had a great title to his land, inasmuch
as he had eaten the former owner.—(Laughter.) The Mem-
bers of the Committee would recollect that.
Mr. J. MILNES—I put the question myself.
Lord HOWICK continued—That was one of the grounds
which were considered by thenatives of New Zealand as sufficient
for the establishment of titles to land in that part of the world.
This being, the state of things, an English gentleman was sent
out to decide according to the rules of English law, disputes as
to the titles of real property in New Zealand. Why, such a
tribunal as this gentleman had to preside over was ridiculous,
and its proceedings must only be a farce. He (Lord Howick)
was sorry to trouble the House at this length, but having been
on the Committee on this matter, his attention had therefore
been directed forcibly to this subject. If the Government had
properly understood this subjects they would not now have
been placed in those difficulties with which they had
now to contend. Mr. Hobson had pointed out in his
dispatch of 1840 the great evils which had arisen, and were
arising, from jobbing in lands both by natives and Europeans.
He would just read an extract from the last report of Mr. Com-
missioner Payne, dated the 6th of July last, which would
clearly show the state of things in New Zealand. Mr. Com-
missioner Payne stated that he had travelled over the country
where he found millions of acres of land upon which the human
foot had scarcely ever trod, and it did appear truly lamentable
that the present few inhabitants should be differing on the sub-
ject of land when there was so much of it unoccupied in other
parts of the island, which they could easily make available for
their purposes. The natives were little disposed to agree to
his laws ; not because they wanted the land themselves, but
merely because they objected to Europeans taking possession
of it. Now this was the course of the present policy of the
Government. They had taught the natives to extort from
settlers compensation for lands which had perhaps for ever
been lying waste and unoccupied. Where was the sense of
such policy as this.' Well, then, this was the main cause of
the present difficulties in New Zealand. Let him now con-
trast this with the effects which might have resulted from
a different policy? Suppose they had said to the natives, " You
have givn up the right of possession of the land to the British
Government, and the British Government will give you for
that land what it is worth ; but, with respect to the waste
land, which you have never occupied, the British Government
will give you no compensation, but they will take care that it
is so improved that it shall mutally turn out to your advantage."
If this line of conduct had been taken with proper firmness, the
acquiescence of the natives might have been ultimately obtained.
If .the Crown had been appointed trustee of the waste lands not
occupied by the natives, many evils would have been avoided.
Industry would have been peomoted, there would have been
no disputes between settlers and natives, chiefs would have been
maintained in their position as regarded the whole community,
civilisation would have gone on, and the greatest and most
noble scheme of civilisation that had been promulgated for the
last 200 years would have realised a glorious result. Nothing
was more certain, asst appeared from the evidence of those who
were well acquainted with that country, than that there was
a disposition on the part of the New Zealander to look up with
almost superstitious reverence to the white settler, and that
they would readily obey all commands that might be put upon
them. This was the state of affairs at first, but by allowing the
power that had been originally exercised' to fall into desuetude,
contempt had gradually increased, and the effect of the power
of the white man was destroyed. Mr. Shortland, in June 1840,
in his account of affairs in New Zealand, had told the Governor
that he was assured of the allegiance of the settlers, and he had
great pleasure in informing him that her Majesty's Go-
vernment was established amongst both natives and settlers,
and the entire population was in a satisfactory state.
'This was, in 1840, not less than one year from the arrival there
of Captain Wakefield. The report also stated that there was a
slight disturbance with respect to some land occupied by the
natives ; but the moment persons representing the Government
interfered, the matter was completely and quietly adjustied. In
1841, Governor Hobson wrote to the Secretary of State,
stating that the native chiefs had expressed their willingness to
comply with every order that he might give. From that
period, and for two years after, Captain Wakefield's arrival there
he extorted a general acquiescence and submission to the power
of the Government.' He said, also,:that the natives wet- a con-
structing a road. He interfered, and told them they bould
not do that, as the Queen only had the power of ordering it,
and the project was at once abandoned. The policy
of the Government seemed to have been lessened by
degrees, and their power had been slowly falling. The
first effect of their mismanagement was the encroach-
ment of the settlers on the land of the Hudson.
In December, 1841, two years after the Company's settlement
Mr. Clark, the protector of the aborigines, set forth that
they were peaceable and tractable, but remarked that
some apprehensions were entertained by them, respecting the
retention of the lands. So that up to this time they had the
natives respecting their measures, and evincing a friendly
feeling towards them, and as being desirous of amicably set-
tling the disputed claims. The native who barbarously mur-
dered Mrs. Roberts and her children, and in whose case the
Governor showed great laxity of duty, by not promptly using
the authority which he possessed, was brought to justice, and
suffered death, so desirous were the aborigines not to violate
the law. Three months afterwards (on March 12th, 1841,)
the Governor wrote to the effect that depredations were com-
mitted on property by the natives, and regretted that he had
not sufficient power to put a stop to such practices, as a spirit
of hostility had arisen betwee❑ the native and white settlers.
How a British officer could write in this strain, he (Lord
Howick) did know. The power of the Government ought to
have been sufficient, and was sufficient, to protect the rights
of the colonists from aggression,and they ought not to have al-
lowed those rights to be trampled upon in the way they had
been. In February, 1842, those disturbances became more
serious, and for several months peaceable British settlers were
wantonly and outrageously interfered with, and had their pro-
perty destroyed by lawless natives. The unfortunate men in
seeking redress for these enormities were bandied about from
one official to another, and then told that they might seek their
remedy in a court of law against the natives of New Zealand.
In some of the outrages the natives made no claim to the land,
as was the fact in Mr. Swainson's case.—( Hear, hear.) The
Noble Lord proceeded to read the letter which was of great
length, and which concluded by saying that the colonies ought
, to be governed by moral influence, and not by physical force.
Now he (Lord Howick) asked was it right to give to those per-
sons whose houses had been burnt down—whose lives had been
endangered, and their crops destroyed—the option of
a civil action against the barbarians ?—( Hear, hear.) The
Governor would take no means to repress the savages
who broke through all laws, and at the same time
he enforced the laws against the settlers, who
were sacrificed to their obedience.—(Hear.) In a further
part of the letter the writer stated that he had great difficulty
in watching over both parties to prevent a collision, which
would be most disastrous. This was the forerunner of the
massacre of June, 1843 ; and they subsequently allowed this
barbarous chief, who had been the cause of all the worst
scenes of atrocity which had taken place in New Zealand, to
trample upon their laws, giving him an overweening
notion of his own power and their weakness—( Hear l—
and encouraging him in Isis outrages. The consequence of the
impolicy of their officers was the tragedy of June, 1843, when
the lives of British officers of the highest rank and character,
and gentlemen against whose character not one word had been
said, were sacrificed in a manner which was really painful
to contemplate. He said it deliberately, and most de-
cidedly expressed it as his opinion that this dreadful calamity
was directly traceable to the impolicy of the British Govern-
ment, and he believed the blood of these murdered
men still cried out to them to give better pro-
tection to the settlers in the colony of New Zealand.
For what does civil government exist, if those things are to
be allowed? If their power be used firmly not to oppress the
natives, not to rob them, but, on the contrary, to maintain
due discipline, and to teach them what were the blessings of
peace, order, and security. If that had been the policy of the
Government from the first instance, no man could read those
papers, and believe that any resistance would be offered to
their authority. If tl•e European settlers were organised as
they ought to be, their authority would be absolute. If he
had made out his case that this state of things was the result
of a bad policy, it was the duty of the House to acquiesce in
the amendment of his Hon. Friend. If they carried that vote
for going into Committee, in Committee their resolutions
should be mainly confined to condemning what was
passed. They could not improve their policy, with-
out pronouncing an opinion on their past errors.—( Hear.)
He thought that any governor that was sent out ought to go
out armed with full powers to dismiss any of the subordinate
officers of Government, if he should see cause. To many of
these parties was to be attributed the anarchy which at present
existed in New Zealand. The Governor should be a man of
the highest character and station. He should be sent out with
unfettered powers for the restoration of order, and when that
restoration was accomplished, he (Lord Howick) hoped that
the Government would revert to the old custom of our ances-
tors, and allow the colonists to govern themselves. All experience
was in favour of self-government by the colonies. In New
Zealand was to be found the ill-effects cf a distant Government.
He saw the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary-at-War
cheer that sentiment—he smarted, perhaps, under the sting
which he (Lord Howick) had so often felt of that pest of
Boards, the Board of Trade.—(Loud laughter.) It might be
said that the principle he advocated entailed a want of security
to the natives; but if the Policy of the Government should be,
as recommended by the New Zealand Company, not to keep
the two races distinct, but to assimilate and amalgamate them,
before long a great part of the native population would possess
the English language, and take their place with their fellow-
subjects of the British race.--(Cheers.) He would conclude
by repeating the declaration with which he commenced, that
the substantial question before the House was the approval or
disapproval of the policy pursued by the Government towards
the celony of Neu Zealand.—( Hear, hear.) Independent of
consiaerations of the administrative incompetency at home
as compared with that abroad, independent of the differences
between the Company interested in the colony and either Go-
vernment, he repeated that the proposition virtually was the
disapproval of that House of the course pursued by the
:buyoeffrav .eieprn.sraiytnntes mhgtreyeeim:nntastonteafahftaltdhsfh;noeiminpneaitrs,
Britishuttarrsran d
administration.—(
adoption of a new and more suit-
able
should--.3(aHd e
wouldaardd colonized,it. shear.)tai; Ifjustice
nt toadhpetpwyhi
applaud
his Hon.
tregardedsettlersnhoei,r
and the natives they could not reject
ethhe motion of his Hon.
Friendir w'MEemsbee.rpt Ledistka.trte
had
een.p)roposed a Govern-
ment,.Tihr
e.o f
Aoti colonists,hAeNr ANGLES
rLd eErloF
ot f
telhrok local
moveda
dl as ey the adjournment
ennutde
disposed
t
of the debate.
House was adjourned. posed of, and the

Dispatches for the Governor-General of Canada, and also
far the Governors of the other North American Provinces,
were sent off last evening from the Colonial-office.
The Judicial Committee of the Privy Council sat yesterday.
Sir Thomas Wilde and Mr. Fitzroy Kelly, Queen's Counsel,
were heard on an appeal from Bengal, Casement v. Fulton.
Mr. Turner, Queen's Counsel, commenced his address for the
rezpondent, and had not concluded when the Court rose at
four o'clock.