Star.
London, England, 1808-05-11 00:00:00

PAL himENT'A k PROCEEDINGS.

• HOUSE bF LGiLDS; MAY 16:
The Hotise was employed for a Consitierobie tine in beerini
Counsel on the Roxburgh Appeal. A !evilly heating on Thurs-
day next. .
The Irish Clergy Bin and the Irish Glebe flute *ere lirought
ap frbm the Commons, and read a Brit time. .
The gills on the Table were forwarded in their raiicctivesrages.
Several Accounts from the Treasury were presented by Mr.
Woodford.—Ordered to lie on the Table:

iitifinLATENT DEBTOR&
Lord DERBY presented Petitioni from teetain iriisonesa ecim
fined for Debt in the faili of Lancaster aiid Liverpool, praying
for relief.—Ordered to lie on the Table.
?HOLLAND also presented 6o-
om Pris
n r confined in the Fleet Prison, apd in the Jail of the City of
',venter. His Lordship made akw observatioiu on the ne-
. lissity of grounding som measure on Petitions of this nature,
wbieh pressed. upon the humanity of at House from 16 many
quarters.—Ordered to lie on the Table.

DA$l3ll SHIT!:
Lord V;scount SU)MOUTH rose, in conipliance ivita the
wish of several Noble Lordis-ta state the ground of his intended
motion, relating to the Danish ships. It appeared by the Papers
laid before the House, thit 380 Danish teasels had been detained
in British ports before Government had recourie to hostllitie
Many of these ships had entered our ports voliiiiiarily; • notwith-
standing which their crews had been treated as prisoners of war,
and the ships considered prizes. As these *buses were contrary
to the bOnOtir and dignity of the national charieter, it was his in-
tention to move several Resolutions : namely;
" That the seamen and Vessels so detained should not be consi-
dered Lawful captures.
" That the proceedings against them in the Admiralty Prise-
Courts should be suspended
" And, finally, That the House should declare the practices al-
luded to, illegal."

_
REVERSION sat.
Lord HAWKESBURY moved the order of the
day for the Second reading of this Bill. After .sta-
tins the origin of the Bill, he observed, that it became
their Lordships to examine it with circumspection and
jealousy. It had formerly occupied their attention
in a different shape, and it had been related. It was
no longer aßill to suspend all Places in Reversion, but
a measure to suspend, for a limited period, the grant=
ing of Places in Reversion pending the inquiries of a
Committee in the House of Commons. It was not a
general measure, but one established on abroad prin-
ciple, and in that sense ought to be Viewed by the
House. The prominent objection to the Bill was,
that it wit dangerous, inasmuch as it went to ifestrict
the prerogative of the Crown. On that Objection he
should say, that it did diminish rather than increase
the Royal prerogative ; but if it appeared necessary
on any occasion to advise the Sovereign not to exer-
cise those powers vested in him, such advice was bet-
ter communicated by the vote of both Houses of Par-
liament than by an address; When he save his opi-
nion respecting the Bill on a former day, he opposed
it, because its real principle and tendency remained
unknown. It was now more definite, and he gave it
his support as a measure inore likely to produce the
desired effect that in its former shape..
Lord REDESDALE r•se to oppose the Bill. He
did not expect that his observations would ieduce
their Lordships to refuse the measure, because lie saw
a strong dispositioa on the part of many Noble Lords
to sanction it, but he should derive much satisfaction
in declaring his protest against it. The measure was
dangerous to the constitution. ft had been framed
upon rumours and reports, the truth of which the
House could not determine ; and their Loidships
were called upon by such a Bill to adopt an innova-
tion calculated to abridge the Crown of its pre-
rogative. The three estates forming tilt Consti-
tution ought to possess equal weight to preserve the
harmony of the whole, but this Bill gave the
Commons power over the Aristocracy, by its in:
fluence over the prerogative vested in the Monarch.
—lt was an innovation which would become a pre-
tedent, and the system of reform, the foundation
of the Bill, Would go on until the Constitution was
overthrown, and the country reduCed to the state it
was in about the year 164.1. He called upon the
House to pause before they received the Bill, and ex-
pressed a hope, that it would not be too hastily
adopted,
The Earl of GROSVENOR considered the Bill
by its preamble to be incapable of producing much
utility, but at the present time, when the public feel-
ings had been sn much agitated and distressed by re-
ports of financial, abuse, he thought the Bill, ought to
be adopted, as the first step to reform. The Noble
and Learned Lord who had just sat dawn entertained
sentiments of a serious description relative to the term
Reform. Did any one imagine, that the reform allu-
ded to applied to the constitution ? It was generally
acknowledged, that abuses had taken place in the ex-
penditure of the public money, and in that instance
reform was necessary, particularly while the people
were called upon to make great pecuniary exert ions.
He had expected that the Bill would not have met
with opposition, and was surprised to hear the Noble
and Learned Lord entertain so bad an opinion of it. I
He considered it a measure likely to prove beneficial,
because it would afford satisfaction to the people. It
was the first step to reform of financial abuses, and
whether it did or did not effect what it purpoited, he
received it as the foundation of a system highly neces-
sary, and consequently gave it his support.
Lord MOIRA opposed the Bill, and considered it
inefficient. If he should be accused of standing
forth in defence of sinecures, and the abuse of finance,
it could not he said he was interested, as neither he,
nor any of his relations, enjoyed a great share of the
public money. The Bill was an intuit to the people,
and could never remedy the abuses complained of.—
Reform might apply to many existing abuses ; but
this Bill appeared framed to draw the attention of the
public to objects of minor importance. It was alitub
thrown out to the whale. He had occasion recently
to bring before the House a most melancholy fact,
when speaking on the Insolvent Debtors' Bill : a
poor widow had been thrown into prison for a debt
of three pounds, contrasted ft. bread for her infants :
the costs upon this clehthintamted to fourteen pounds;
and he wished to intim how much of this money
went into the pockets of thlharks in the Courts of
Law, who 'held offices in teversion—(Hear! hear!
hear !)—ITe did not think fie could point out a
stronger case in favour of abolishing reversionary
When he spoll of abuse!, the huge vo-
of assessed taxes was worthy of attention.
, was ready to admit that refiatit in the ex-
tditure of the public y 'Vas requisite • but
. was not to be effX at one blow. +here
4 many objects of reform, and it was necessary
begin with those of the greatest magnitude. The
had beeftime popular, because it proposed a re-

ifiedy for the abuses wi
1k cohagaiht i tittt ihg
duce the desired effect.

length against the clout
and highly disapproved
Lbrd MORTON tr

naircowly into the Bill.
and sent back to the Commons. It now tame-before
the Hone in a new form, but it was still dangerous
to the Constitution, an I ought not to be received by
the House:
Lord HOLLAND did not tilmn td speak upoii
the Bill when he entered the House, because lie un-
derstood there was no intention on the part of the
Noble Lords to oppose it; but when he heard the
Bill opposed by observations fainded on new points,
he was desirous of saying a few words on the subject.
The Noble and Learned Lord had said, that the Bill
Would destroy the Constitution; . and his Noble Friend
(Lord Moira) had said. the Bill *as . delusive, and
would do no good. So far these Noble Lords Were'
' at variance in their opinions. The Ncible and Learned
lAA had told the House, that the Rill would turn
the Cnnstitirticin into a repUblic, and the lamentations
Which the Noble Lord had Made for the downfall Of
tinettres Was not very consoling to the people, note
groaning under heavy burdens. He considered the.
Bill a grand victory and trininph over tho itsteiti of
abuse, which had prevailed over all branches of fi-
nance. The evil advisers, and that party who gad
so long governed by intrigue. Ministers ought at all
times to have the responsibility of Government; and
Ihe trusted that Government would always act at
they had done by the present Bill, in. Spite of the se-
cret influence about the throne, and that they would
never sell the right's of the people to obtain a majority
in that House. The liberty enjoyed in the country
was founded on the protection afforded by. the Aris-
tocracy of the country to the people; and the Welfare
and prosperity of nations depended upon the affection
of the people to their Nobles. The Noblet of other
countries had laid the people at the foot of the
throne, and those Nobles afterwards. were not only
dekPised by the petiple for their venality, but discard-
ed With disgrace by the Sovereign. Stich had been
the. Ease in Destr.iik, trance, and in a country,
Which, from recent events, had become very interest-
ing, he meant Spain. In that country, the ancient
Corte reset/Aired our Parlithient, and were the bul-
wark of the national freedoin: In the year 1522;
during the reign of Charles the Vth, the popular cry
in Spain was strongly for the redressing of certain
grievances • !nix Most of the Mobility of the country
ranged theraeliet about the king, Who, by their
assistance, Was strong enough to resist the wishes of
his people, and to crush what Was called a rebellion.
About fifteen years afterwards, those Nobles wished
for the redress of certain grievantes ; but all the re-
turn which they received for their attachment to the
Monarch was, the folk/king message,. i. Go back to
your bottles, his Majesty has no further occasion for
your services." Shortly after, the Carta was entirely
discontinued in Spain, and from that time the liberty
of that country was gone, and its prosperity rapidly
declined: It appeared to him, that whoever consider-
ed with attention the hiStDry of other countries, would
not suppose that this country could gain by following
precisely the same course as that which had led to the
degradation of so many oWker countries. In the reign
of Charles 11. it had been waiinly recommended to the
House of Peers, by Lord Clifford, to unite themselves
around the throne, and to oppose the publie Wish, and
the vote of the House of Commons. That imprudent
speech was answered by King Charles's own Chan-
cellor, Lord Shaftesbury, whb shared the ithOolicy
' of the Nobles forming themselves into a party against
the nation. King Charles stoat satisfied with the rea-
soning of the Chancellor,. but his brother James was
highly indignest at Such an opposition proceeding
from a Lord Chancellor, and said to the King,—
" Odzooks, Brother, what 2 „ rogue you have got for a
Chancellor f" The King replied, " Odsfish, Brother,
what a fool you hare got for a Treasurer !" (Lord
Clifford being Treasurer to the Duke.) He could not
agree in the glooMy apprehension's Which, some Noble
Lords entertained from conceding something to the
public opinion. He, on the contrary, liked the Bill
much better for coming to the House with such a re-
commendation. Neither could he agree with his
Noble Friend (Lord Moira) that the measure WAS of
little importance i he thought it of itself a Measure of
great impqrtance, by dinimiahing somewhat of the
corrupt and unconstitutional influence which evil ad-
visers might recommend to be turned against the in-
terests and freedom of the country. He thought it
still more important, as holding out a hope to the
people of this country that other measures Would be
adopted for alleviating their b :rdens, by introducing
economy in the expenditure of the public money, and
that the Minister. of the country would not suffer
themselves to be govenaed by a secret and unconsti-
tutional influent:.

Lord SOMERS strpoited the Bill, and felt him.
self mole "strongly induced to do Yo, by the attempt
that had been made to defeat this salutary measure
by a party prv.euding to call themselves, in an etclu-
sive sense, the friends of the CroVen," While they
were endeavouring to thwart the measures of his
Majesty's 'Government, and to over-rule the ostensible
and responsible Ministers of the Crown. Such con-
duct as this appeared to him to be sapping the very
vitals of the Constitution, and he hoped that no Mi.
nister would submit to this secret and mysterious in-
fluence, which would not meet the light, and which
the Constitution was unacquainted with. Pressed as
the people of this country are with burdens sshich are
necessary, he thought it was natural for them to corn-
plain of what was unnecessary, and that their just
crimplaints should not be called clamour, but that they
deserved the most serious attention of that House.

The question was then put on the second reading of
the Bill, and teas carried without a division.
After some routine business the House adjourned.

HOME OF COMMONS.

The Grampound I•:ketion Committee reported, that the right
of el. etion for that Borough vested in the Mayor, and the bur-
gesses, reside:t and non-resident, and that the rett.ri.ed Members
were not duly elected, and ought not to have been returned, but
that the Hon. Coehrane Johnstone and Mr.llolntes ought to Lave
been returned. The Clerk of the Crown was ordered forthwith
to attend and amend the return.
The Flat ing Bill, the Militia Pat! Bill, the Irish Militia Pay
Bill, ,lilitia Adjutants, and Militia Subalterns Allowance Bill,
were real the third time,palsed, and ordered to the Lords.
Mr. WY NINF po►tponed to Monday the further consideration
of the Luitatics Bill.
The Million and a Half Exchequer Bills Bill, and the Three
Mlllians Fithequer Bills Bill, Went theorgh a Committee, and
Weft ordered to be reported to-morrow.

House weneasto
duty on cork.
dl the al higher
imported into
duty should be es.
be received th-
Wit, after a few
and Mr. HOR-
NER; filet ft* to:psbirohi.
The Irish Soap Duties, and the Irish Assessed Taxes Bill,
were each read a third time and passed.
The second reeding of the Dublin Pollee BM was postpdaed
till so-morrow (this day).
HIS MAJF3TI MusenGis.
Tie CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then brought
up a Message from the King, which was to the following effect :
a G. R.

i ti sbi~

. .
" His Majesty ands it neceisary tb state to the House of Com-
mons, that in consequent& bf the dinultrous defeat of the King et
Prussia in 030 autumn of 1806; and of the death of the Duke of
Brunswick ; his Majesty's sister, the Onset* of that illustrious
Prince, was compelled to seek an asylum in this country. On
bee arrival here his Majesty appointed bee an establiiliment out
of the Civil List ; but there being no regular provision fde lack
an expenditure, his Majesty recommends it to his faithful Coa-
taons enable him to make good the same; and his Majesty, on
a subject so ispeicating to bit obrn feelings; and the honour and
dignitY of kis Crown, Mies on the liberality of his faithful Com-
mons to enable bin to carry his wishes into effect:"

His Majaty's Message was referred to a Committee of Supply,
and the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER gave notice
that he Mould to-morrow submit a motion on the subject.
ASSESSED TAXIS.
Mr. WHARTON thought up tht Repoli of tie Assessed
Taxes BM

Mr. WARDELL wished to ask a quested on the subject of the
Assessed Tales. He wished to know whether the having • a fur:-
iiiihed buse iiiiinhabited subjected the possessor•to the different
ditties ? He believed that in some districts the cii&ctors exacted
the duties in such a case; though in others they did not.
The.CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER salli it was pro-
bable that the difference in tie practice of the Culktors might
arise from circumstances not attended to by the Honourable Gen-
tleman. He wad not preParedidi de Ititiked into the Acts of Par-
liament on the subject; to give a decided answer to the HotiOur.
able Gentleman, but he stiould be able to do so to-morrow.
Mr. ROSE and Mr. HUSKISSON observed, that if the house
thus furitiated was left to the care of a serially then of course the
possessor paid the different duties on lights, &c. The Repoli
was then agreed to. The Bill was then oadeitd to belread a third
time on Thursday.

SIR HOME POPHAM. '
Mr. LUSHINGTON lost to move for a Copy of
the Proceedings of the Court of King's Bench, in the
cause Paxton and others v. Sir Home Popham and
others. As he believed that no opposition would be
niade to the motion, he should content himself with
merely moving for the paper in qiiiistinti.
Sir HOME POPHAM said he certainly had no
objection to the production of thii'petier, though it
relattd merely to a private transaction, in which he
believed the Public could have little or. no interest.
He could not help nbticittg, however, the Wonderful
industry with which the charges made against hirn by
the Honourable Gentleman had been circulated under
every form, and blazoned to the world. On this ac-
count, it tnight not be improper for him to give a
short history of that transaction, Which led to the legal
proceedings in question. About twenty years ago, be
had embarked in a mercantile speciilation with a Mr.
Macarthur, and certain other individuals, which was
followed by certain legal proceedings; but they were
conducted 'entirely by-Mr. Macarthur's Solicitor, and
he knew neither directly nor indirectly the bearings of
those proceedings. This he stated to the House upon
his honour • it was confirmed by a letter which he
had received from Mr. Macarthur to that effect. He
was surprised, however, that the Honourable Gentle-
man should Moire for a copy of these proceedings,
since there were other legal proceedings consequent
on the confiscation of the ship Etrusco, which might
probably have served his purpose better. He had
ensured to the amount of 6Q,0001. on that ship, and
on suing for the amount of the insurance he was non_
Suited, on the ground of its being a transactioa arising
out of an illegal trade.
Mr. LUSHINGTON said, it was the first time he
had heard of the transaction which the Honourable
Captain had just mentioned ; but his only object in 1
the present Inc:akin Was to shew, that there had been
a continued practice of illegal trading tin the part of
the Honourable Captain, and therefore that the plea
of ignorance as to the illegality of the trade, contained
in the Memorial of the Honourable Captain, presented
to the Treasury, was not perfectly correct. The
Honourable Captain must have known, before he pre-
sented that Memorial, that the illegality of the trade
was proved by the proceedings iu the Court of King's
Bench.
Sir HOME POPHAM replied, that the Honour-
able Gentleman might Vet froth his Memorial, triat it
was founded on the belief that the trade was not ille-
gal, and on the circumstance of the reception which
he met with from the Government in India, which
served to shew that he was in some degree authorised
by them to carry on trade.—The papers were then
ordered.

On the motion of Mr. LONG, there was ordered to
be laid before the House a copy of a Minute of the
Treasury, dated the ith of August, 1804., respecting
the Memorial of Sir H. Popham.

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