The Sun.
London, England, 1827-03-28 00:00:00

DUNLEARY AND novrni HARBOURS.

:11r. H. GRATTAN, after some remarks on the sub-
ject of the experiments made by the Post .office in the esta-
blishment of packets between *Holyhead and Dunleary and
Howth, and between Dunleary and Liverpool, moved fur
several returns connected with those establishments;
among others, for a return of the number of voyages made
by his Majesty's steam-packets from Holyhead to Howth,
and from Liverpool to Dunleary, in the year 1826 ; also
for a return of the number of hours and minutes occupied
by such packets in their respective voyages from Holyhead
to Duuleary ; an account of the shortest passages made
from Holyhead to Dunleary and Howth, and the difference
of time between such voyages.—The motion was agreed to.
On the motion of Mr. COURTENAT, a Select Committee
was appointed to take into consideration the laws affecting
" Friendly Societies," and to report their opinions and ob-
servations thereupon to the House.
A MEMBER IN CUSTODY.
The SPEAKER informed the House that Mr. Forester
(one of the Members who had been absent from the ballot
on the 21st inst., and who had not attended in his place
this day), was then in the custody of the Sergeant at Arms.
It was then moved and carried, that Mr. Forester be
discharged, on the payment of his fees.

The Annual Duties Bill was read a third time, and
passed.

WRIT OF RIGHT BILL.

On the motion of Mr. Stianwam., this Bill was read a
second time.

On the question that it be committed,

Mr. D. W. HARVEY expressed a hope that the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman would not press this Bill at the
present time, more particularly as, from what bad fallen
from the Right Hon. Secretary opposite (Mr. Peel), there
was reason to hope that he would he ready, in the course
of the present, or early in the next Session, to introduce
some general measure respecting the transfer of real pro-
perty. The Bill now before the House referred but to a
small part of the general subject, and that in a manner not
affording a happy specimen of the Honourable and
Learned Gentleman's legislative notions ; it was
defective in parts which it might have made an
improvement. It would, he thought, produce no
good, but on the contrary would in: some respects be in-
jurious. He did not say that the Honourable Member did
not mean well, but his measure did not go far enough in
some points, and too far in others. The Honourable
Member then went on to point out the various modes of
expense to which a party was put in levying a fine in the
every day practice of a woman giving up her claim to her
portion of her husband's property. The prOcessisidlo kt.•
through some six or seven officee before it was complete,
and at the expence of 201. Now, let the House contrast
this tedious and expensive process with the simple one
which was resorted to and held sufficient in cases of copy-
uota 43 et t There, if a wife was illeposed to 'eye up trr
claim on her husband's property, she might do so by going
before the steward of the manor, and by taking hold of
one end of a stick of which the steward held the other (in-
deed a poker was made use of on some occasions), and by
that means might signify the alienation of her claim, and
the steward's certificate to that effect was held sufficient
proof of each alienation, and was as effectual for its object
as the levying a fine in the Court of Common Pleas. An,
easy and simple process for the same purpose Was known
to prevail in several corporate towns. It was the caseiin
London, and in the town which he had the honour to re-
present. There a lady might go before the Mayor, and
signify her intention to resign her claim, and the Mayor's
certificate, for which she paid only a shilling, was a suffi-
cient attestation of the fact.

Mr. BERNAL expressed a hope that the Learned Gen-
tleman would not withdraw his bill, which, as far as it
went, would be found very useful, and would; save a great
deal of expense. The old and antiquated forms attending
the trial of a writ of right, were too absurd to be allowed to
continue in the year 1827. In other respects also the exist-
ing anomalies were absurd. For instance, a man bequeath-
ing by will a real estate of N. a year, was obliged to have
his will attested by three witnesses, while a man who be-
queathed 15,0001. of customary or copyhold estate, had no
occasion to have his will attested even by a single witness.
He did hope that those anomalies would be abolished, and
also that some steps would be adopted to do away with the
enormous expense attending the purchase and transfer of
property. This was a subject to which he hoped the at-
tention of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Peel), would
be directed.

Mr. PEEL observed, that upon any specific plan which
should be pursued, he had not made up his mind, for he
was so overwhelmed with business, as to he unable to give
it that attention which it deserved; but as far as he had
considered it, he thought a preliminary inquiry should be
devolved on a commission consisting of some members of
the profession. Whether the commissioners were to be
paid (and if gentlemen of the legal profession devoted their
time, it could not be expected that' they would set gra-
tuitously) or not, he had not considered; but that was a
question of minor importance. However, that some such
inquiryas to the present modes of transferring real property,
should precede any legislative measure on the subject, he
had no doubt, and the question was one to which he was
disposed to give the fullest consideration.--(Hear, hear.)
Dr. LUSHINGTON congratulated the House upon the
prospect thus held out of having OMB steps taken towards
the abolition of the present tedious and expensive process
in the conveyance of property. He himself had seen an
abstract of a title, which occupied not fewer than SOO
sheets—(hear, hear,)---and yet it was drawn up by a most
respectable solicitor, who found that be could not avoid that
course consistently with his chit), to his client. He hap-
pened to he concerned in the purchase of property sold
under an Act of Parliament, and the respectable convey-
ancer employed felt it his duty to object to the title under
the very Act which he had himself framed, and it cost 100
guineas to have the doubt as to that title removed. Now,
ke thought that when /such difficultiee'attended the pur-
chase of property, and the establishment of titles, it was
time for the Legislature to interfere. Bet their first step
should be to ascertain the nature and extent of the evil, and
then, in devising a remedy, care should be taken that other
evils were not let in, as great as those which it was in-
tended to remove.

Mr. FERGUSON hoped that the Tim and Learned
Member for Ripon (Mr. Shadwell) would not press this
Bill en the House at present, but would leave 'the whole
matter in the hands of the Right Hon. Gentleman near
him (Mr. Peel), who had expressed his willingne„, to have
this portion of the law of the country amended as soon as
possible.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL expressed himself will-
ing to lend his bumble assistance to the improvement of
the formal and instrumental modes of conveyancing.
Mr. PEEL repeated, that he did not mean to pledge
himself at present to the appointment of a Commission.
He wished the inquiry into this branch of the law of Eng-
land, whenever it took place, to be conducted by persons
whose experience would carry with it a warrant to the
public that any measures which they might propel* would
be judicious. He pledged himself that the subject should
shortly be taken into consideration.
Mr. SHADWELL would gladly give his assistance to
such a Commission as the Right Hon. Secretary near him
had spoken of ; but as some time would necessarily occur
before the recommendations to which that Commission
might come could be carried into execution, be thought that
his Bill ought to be in operation during the inteital. '
Theßill was then ordered to be committed on Friday next.
CORN LAWS.
Sir A. GRANT brought up the Report of the Resolu-
tions on the Corn Trade Acts.

On the question that it be now read,
Mr. HUME commenced by a recapitulation of the ob..

serrations used by Mr. Canning in proposing the resolu-
tions, and of the arguments used by both sides of the House
in defence and reprobation of them. He differed from
every person who had yet spoken on the subject. He was
of opinion that protection ought not to be granted to the
landed interest, even to the amount of a shilling, unless
they could show that they were liable to taxes which the
other classes of the community did not bear. At the same
time lie admitted, that in whatever degree they proved
that they were taxed beyond others, to that degree they de-
served protection. Ile contended that, after the declara-
tions whichillinieters had made three years ago respecting
free trade, they were bound to take an even course between
the agricultural and the manufacturing interests, and not to
favour one of them at the ea:pence of the other. He con-
ceived the present resolutions to give an unjust preference
to the agricultural interest, and to be injurious to the gene-
ral prospects of the country. Some gentlemen might sup-
pose that there was a difference between the producer
corn and the producer of shoes ; but he was convinced from
long study that they were mistaken. The farmer was as
much interested in having a low price of food as any man
who manufactured either shoes or woollens or any other
commodity. He entered his solemn protest against the
doctrine that the farmer was a party interested in this ques-
tion. It was a question between the landowners and the
rest of the community, save only where the farmer had a
long lease of the premises of which he wee the occupier._
The present plan grew out of the conduct of speculators,
who, in the course of the war, had brought into cultivation
a great quantity of poor land ; and, times having altered,
they now called on the House, as all speculators would do,
to support them. Their object was to exclude from compe-
tition the produce of other and better soils. He objected to
any such system, because he wished the pi inciple of free
trade to be adopted with respect to every species of commo-
dity. He would buy corn wherever it could be obtained
at the cheapest rate—and lie would pay for it with the
manufactures of the country. In tins case nine-tenths of
the people were opposed to the landowners ; and if a
working men were enabled to procure two bushels of
wheat for his day's labour, through the medium of fo-
reign importation, he was bound to do so, instead of
getting cnc bushel, by preferring those agricultural inte-
rests as they were called. He might he told that the land-
owner,: wished that every person should receive a just re-
muneration ; but how did their conduct bear out that as-
sertion, when they endeavoured to keep up the price of
every necessary of life, and thus praver:ed the manufactu-
rer from comparing with foreign countries; the conse-
quence of which Must necessarily he, the decrease of wages,
and the throwing many individuals out of employment?--
It was, however, said, that without this system of protec-
tion were continued, the country would run the chance of
being visited by famine. " It is not," said the landown-
er, "for my own sake, hut for the sake of the public, that
I desire this protection." A snore fallacious argument
never was advanced. If they would suffer corn to be im-
ported only when it arrived at those very high prices
which could rarely occur, then foreign countries would not
be encouraged to grow corn, which they might
exchange for English manufactures; but if on the
other hand, corn were freely admitted, then the
whole world, on whom they must depend for trade,
would he able to prepare an abundant supply of grain,
to assist this country, if it suffered from the failure of the
crops, or from any other circumstance. Without looking
to average., a system which might be abused—without
looking at the price of grain, lie would open the ports to
corn in the same way as they were open to other articles.
He would open a trade immediately with every other coun-
try that had surplus corn to sell, and thus increase the de-
mand for the manufactures of England. His proposition
was, that the ditty should now be laid at 155., and that la.
should be taken off every year, until it came to a perma-
tient tax of 10s: Though he was tilling to do this, yet
he was convinced that the agriculturists were cot able to
show that they paid in taxes more than four shillings
above the other classes of the community. If this were
done, the population would consume all the corn that
was imported, as well as that which was grown in
this country. The workmen would be well paid, and the
manufacturers would be enabled to get off their goods.
Such would be the effect of setting free the trade in corn;
but the present law tended to produce want and destitu-
tion, in the country. He wished to introduce a ccuntervail-
iug, tax, to the amoutii, which the land-owners could show
they Veit bovine the other' Viart of Ithe=e'olianiunity.
somewhat audible conversation between several gentlethen,
here occasioned the Hon. Gentleman to complain that due
attention was not paid to him). He was peifectly willing
to do one of two things ; and he should like to know how
far the Hon. Member for Wareham (Mr. Calcraft) would
meet him. The land-owners, it was said, paid 5,000,0001.
or 10,000,000/. more of taxes than the other branches of
the community did. Now, he would either repeal those
taxes, or give them a countervailing duty, in proportion to
the amount which they proved they paid beyond the other
classes of the community. It was asserted by a Noble
Lord ihanotherplace, that the land-owners paid 24-25ths
'of the -poor-rates. This, however, was not the fact. Last
yearthe poor-rates and parish-rates amounted to 6,900,0001.
Of this, 2,700,000/. was raised on dwelling-houses, and
the remaining 4,200,000/. on the land ; therefore, the
land appeared to contribtite -two-thirds Of the poor-rates,
or 2,000,0001. more than the other classes of the commu-
nity. If, however, this slim of 4,200,0001. were divided
into three parts, it would be found that one-third was not
I paid by the land-owners. The remaining two-thirds,
or about 2,500,000/., were paid by them. But of
this 2,500,0001., nine-tenths, he was prepared to show,
consisted of wages. The Honourable Member then
proceeded to enumerate the other burdens to which
the land-owners complained that they were peculiarly
liable. The Tithes be would remove ; and in their place
allow a fixed sum. The land-tax might be differently
modified ; and, with respect to the county rates, the coun-
try gentlemen had no right to complain of them, as they
were levied and laid Out by themselves. The duty laid
upon a vast 'variety of the necessaries of life, amounted to
an absolute prohibition of importation ; but this would
not satisfy the country gentlemen, nothing would content
them, unless that prohibition was extended to corn. It
was contended that the home consumption was the great
support of the British manufacturer. This was quite im-
possible, as would be seen by an account of the quantity
of goods manufactured in a given time. The amount of tba
valueof goods manufactured in 1824 was 44,000,000/. ; in
1825,49,000,000/. ; and in 1826, 47,000,0007. Now, it
was impossible that this country could consume manufactures
tothis extent. But if the trade in corn were thrown open, it
would afford a vent, for those manufactures ; and every
knife and stocking sent abroad would produce a profit that
would enable the manufacturer to pay his portion of the in-
terest of the national debt. The Hon. Member proceeded
-0 argue that the hind-owners demanded a protecting duty
for the purpose of Obtaining high rents. That was an ob-
ject unworthy of the attention of Parliament. Indeed, he
was of opinion that if no rents whatever wire paid, it
would be for the advantage of the country....._(Loud laugh-
, ter. )—He concluded by saying, that he believed be had
succeeded in expressing his sentiments clearly and distinctly
.—(a laugh)—so as not to be understood.—(Great
laughter.)—He meant so as not to be misunderstood. He
then moved the following resolution :—" That from the
sth of July, 1827, until the sth of July, 1828, the duty
payable on any quarter of wheat imported into the United
Kingdom shall be 15s. ; that from the sth of July, 1828,
to the sth of July, 1829, the duty shall be 14s. ; and that
this duty shall decrease Is. every year afterwards, until
1833, when a permanent duty of 10s. shall be established.
Mr. MARSHALL addressed the House in a tone of
voice so feeble, as to be almost inaudible in the gallery.
,We understood him to second the amendment, and to declare
that the commercial interest of Yorkshire felt greatly disap-
pointed by the measures which Ministers had proposed
relative to the trade in corn, from which they expected no
substantial relief.
Mr. IRVING entirely dissented from all that the Hon.
Member for Aberdeen had stated on the subject. His pro-
poeition that the country would be benefited by the non-
payment of rents WAS quite untenable. The effect of such
a state of things could not but be injurious to the best inte-
restsf h
and Poland, where the landed proprietors, in consequence of
not tieing
able to obtain any certain income, were entirely
te country, as was evinced in the case of Prussia
dependent on, and under the controul of, the Government.
The Hon. Member concluded by declaring, that he should
be disposed always to confine the consumption of the country
to its own produce as far as possible, and that he thought
that system a bad one which would leave the home agricul-
turist constantly open to the interference of foreigners.
Sir H. PARNELL said that there was no doubt that,
in the produce of manufactures, capital might go on to be
applied almost unlimitedly, and that the result would be a
continued reduction of the article produced, in price; but
the, case of agricultural produce was entirely different. The
extent of the fertile land which be had to cultivate, must
determine the extent in which capital could be applied to
cultivation with advantage. Up to, a certain point--so
long as we worked onlyprice
cheapness of upon fertile lands—the• application
of capital tendea ''to produce increased '
but. when the -continued application of capital led
.us int°
PUltiVging pOr,kioilsi then the effect,of -that course would
ha a rise of price ; the quantity of labour, &c. requisite to
make those twits productive was greater than that which
we had been accustomed to apply before. If we cultivated
poor land, while land of a superior quality was at our die-
posal, we in fact paid so much more for en averace crop

than tie need do ; it sru go rout labour or capital thrown
away ; and this was exactly the effect of our refusing to take
corn from foreign countries. To look at this system,
therefore, as. it affected the manufacturing interest, the
quantity of corn consumed annually in this country was
about 50,000,000 of quarters. If, by any law or arrange-
ment, all that corn was purchased at the rate of 10s. a quar-
ter higher than it need be, the charge so laid upon the public
was 25,000,0001. ;in money. And this was the syste:n
which gentlemen argued produced no injury to the coun-
try. What would be said, if the Treasury proposed to
levy a tax of 10s. upon every quarter of corn consumed ? If
all this 25,000,0001. went to the landlord, even that would
not be entirely ruinous ; at all events, it would be a trans-
fa. simply of so much money from the pockets of one
class of people to those of another. But the fact was, that
taking the admitted average, that only one-third of the sell-
ing price of corn went for the landlord's rent, the landlord
got only a third of it ; at the utmost, he did not receive
half. And what became of the rest of the 25,000,0001.—
that was, of the additional 10s. a quarter ? Why, the
landlord got about 3s. of it, or 4s. ; and the rest was di-
rectly wasted—thrown away—laid out in producing that
from a lower soil which a higher would have produced
without its expenditure : it: was wasted i❑ growing corn
at a higher price than wo could purchase it. The effect
of this course was to encourage our manufacturers to carry
their capital to foreign countries, where they could use it
to more advantage than tkey could at home.
Mr. W. WHITMORE could not concur in the emend
ment of the Honourable Member near him (Mr. Home.)
He was opposed to the proposition of a fixed duty, and was
convinced that it would be found impossible ever to main-
tain such a duty as lOs., subject to a scarcity price.
Mr. IRVING explained.
Mr. CRIPPS thought, that while there-was land that
could be cultivated in this country, and while corn could
be grown here, even though it might be at a somewhat
greater expence, they ought not to subject themselves to a
foreign market.
Mr. 'WARBURTON looked upon the question as a
choice of difficulties, and as that of the Hon. Member for
Aberdeen sp?eared to him to be the lesser one, he should
vote for the amendment.

An Hon.. Mantuan, under the gallery, said, that taxed
and burdened as the agriculturists were by the poor's-
rates, he did not think the amendment by any means a
fair proposition. If those burdens were removed, the trade
is corn might be as free as any Hon. Gentleman pleased.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and upon our
return we found the numbers—

For the amendment,l6 1 Against it, 140 1 Majority against

the amendment, 124.

The remaining resolutions were then put and carried.
An amendment was moved by Mr. Huaxt, which was
agreed to without any discussion; but we were unable to
catch the precise terms of it.
In answer to a question from Mr. BANKES,
Mr. C. GRANT said, that he hoped to have the Bill
ready to-morrow, and if the House had no objection, he
should wish it to be read on Friday.

The report of the Ways and Means Committee was
brought up, and ordered to be received on Friday.
The annual Indemnity Bill was read a third time, and
passed.
The Bills of Exchange Bill was read a third time and
passed.
Mr. S. RICE moved that a clause should be added, by-
way of rider to the Bill, exempting Ireland from its enact-
ments.—Agreed to.

SPRING GUNS BILL.

On the report being brought up,

Lord BELFAST trusted this Act would not extend to
IrelancL In that country the people were, unfortunately,
not so much civilized as in this country. The planta-
tions were constantly plundered for fuel, and spring guns
were absolutely necessary for the protection of this spe-
cies of property. The Noble Lord thdn referred to the
outrages which had been committed in the neighbour-
hood of Tlli,r,lstown, where about 90 acres of land were
ploughed up. Between 400 and 300 persons were pre-
sent on that occasion ; an incessant fire of small arms was
kept up all night, and on the following day a notice was
served upon a person (Mr. Smithwick) to whom a portion
of the land belonged, which he would read to the house:—
" Notice is hereby given to Black Jack Smithwick, if he
does not immediately give the. wood and road fields to the
,distressed, sour „for Totato ground, at -,a• moderaterez.tr. be
.will -meet with' tie fate of Baker', or Varrell's wife. Any
person -who'stois up thofie sods will meet with the loss of
his life ; and, if you do not comply with this, we' will
shoot your stock, burn your dairy-house, men and milk-
women. This is enough. Given at our council-room by
the provider of the poor. " ROCK."
(Loud laughter.) If spring-guns had been set in this de-
mesne, he did not believe that this outrage would have
taken place.—(Laughter.)—He would therefore move that
the provisions of this Bill should not extend to Ireland.

Mr. J. GRATTAN believed that the effect of the Noble
Lord's measure, if carried, would be most injurious to.
Ireland.

Mr. S. RICE also opposed the motion.

Mr. Secretary PEEI, hoped the motion would not be
pressed to a' division. He begged the House to observe,
that they would by no means leave the question in the same
state with regard to Ireland, after the passing this Bill, as
before : because if Ireland should be exempted from its
operation, it would not only imply,that spring-guns might
be set in that country, but would also go far to decide the
,legality of a practice at present very much doubted.
Lord BELFAST said, that if such was the opinion of
the House, he would withdraw his motion.

The report was then agreed to, and the Bill ordered to
be read a third time on Friday next.
On the motion of Mr. Kennedy, the Salmon Fisheries'
Bill was recommitted, the report brought up, and agreed
to, and the Bill ordered to be read a third time on Mon-
day next.