The Sun.
London, England, 1827-03-03 00:00:00

those who cultivated the .oil ?—The two petitions were laid on
the Table.
Lord KING said he had several petitions to present
to their Lordships on this subject, and, like the Noble Earl who
had just addressed them, he could not approve of the proposed
measure ; but he differed in the grounds of his disapprobation
from the Noble Earl. If it were necessary for all who live by
their labour, and for all who live by the profits of stock, to
eame forward and demand justice against the Corn Laws,
there was no reason why these demands should not be repeated
after what had passed within twenty-four hours. The petitioners
asked to be allowed to enjoy the fruits of their labour, and
they said that it was not fit and proper that their Lordship 4,
who did not labour, should for their benefit tax those who la-
boured. It was said the Corn Laws did not cause the suffer-
ings of the country ; but he thought they did. There never
was a period of greater suffering than the present, at least the
sufferings were now as great as he ever remembered, and he
thought these sufferings were caused by the Corn Laws. They
limited our trade and they limited our food, and the country
was suffering from wanting both food and employment. He
was not contented by the proposed measure, and he believed
nobody in the country would be contented. He thought they
would never be contented till justice was done them. If their
Lordships pursued their present course, and denied justice to the
people, they would find before long that their hand would be
against every man, and every man's hand against them. His
Lordship concluded by presenting a petition from the Lord Mayor
and Common Council of the City of London; a second petition
from Rattray, Perthshire ; and a third petition from the Weavers
of Leith.
The Earl of MALMESBURY observed, that in
looking over the returns from the Consuls abroad, he could find
no information relative to the price of corn at the ports of the
Black Sea, including Odessa, which he thought a most important
point. Neither was there any information relative to Alexandria.
Egypt had been the granary of Rome, and he did not kilow why
corn might not be also imported from thence. In fact, a great
quantity of beans had already been ordered from that port. He
would move, therefore, that an humble Address should be present-
ed to his Majesty, praying for further information. But before
making his motion, he wished to refer to the votes of the other
House, in doing which he believed he
.should net be out of order.
He had seen those votes; and'he wished to take this' opportunity of
expressing the concern which be felt lest he should not be able to
support the Resolutions contained in those votes. The Resolutions
destroyed the present system. He, for one, was willing to.titsent
to considerable modifications in 'the present system, but he cmild
not consent to abandon it. ' The alterations proposed would allow
corn to be imported at all times, under certain conditions. It
did away entirely with prohibition; and took away all security
from the agriculturists. .He would have preferred a very•mode-
rate minimum price to the absence of all prohibition. It was
said of the proposed measure, that it would take away the incon-
veniences of the averages, but he thought quite the contrary.—
By the duty being fixed at a certain ampunt, a great corn dealer,
by feeding the market, might lower or raise the price as it suited
himself, and thus lower or raise the duty. Instead of preventing
fluctuations, he believed it would cause them, and give occasion
to more speculation than ever. He regretted that he was obliged
to take the course he did ; but be thought it was better to take
the earliest opportunity to express his dissent to the proposed mea-
sure. His Lordship concluded by proposing an humble Address
to his Majesty, to lay before their Lordships whatever informa-
tion he may have received from his Majesty's Consuls relative to
the laws regulating the exportation of grain from Odessa, and the
price of grain in that port. Also, the same information relative
to Alexandria.—Ordered.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH suggested, that it
would be adviseable if some Noble Lord would, by a motion, give
their Lordships an opportunity of discussing the question before
the Resolutions came up from the other House.
The Earl. of INIALMESBURY had already
troubled their Lordships very often on this subject, and he should
not make any motion according to the suggestion of the Noble
Lord.
Lord REDESDALE..suggested, that Mogadore
should be included in the Address, and all the ports of the Me-
diterranean, as he knew that corn was imported in great quan-
tities from that port, and, in particular, that Madeiri received all
its supplies from. thence.
The Earl of MALMESBURY assented; and
took that opportunity of" saying, that he did not think the infor-
mation possessed by their Lordships was so deficient as to what
would he a remunerating price for the grower, which might be
taken at 60s. or 645., as it was deficient with regard to the price
at which foreign corn could be imported. It was necessarynot only
to know at what price it might now be imported, but at what
price it might be imported when foreign countries were assured
of finding a steady market for their corn in this country.
Earl STANHOPE differed with the Noble Earl
as to their Lordships' information concerning a remunerating
price, and thought it would be advisable to examine some practi-
cal men as to the effects of the proposed measure. He also wish-
ed to inquire into the effect of the measure on Ireland, which, he
thought, would be so mush injured by it, that its population
would he left destitute of employment. Their Lordship might,
if they did not take care, kindle a flame which they might find
it difficult to extinguish. His Lordship also condemned in strong
terms the Bonding system, which, he said, prevented the sale of
British goods.
Earl BATHURST did not intend to trouble their
Lordships, as he felt it occasioned considerable inconvenience to
enter into long discussions on the presentation of petitions, or
engage in a debate which might arise accidentally, and that could
never lead to any adequate conclusion. But one Noble Lord
seemed to think that their Lordships had not been treated with
respect in not having bad a communication made to them before
the Resolutions could be brought up from the Commons ; but
their Lordships would recollect, that the measure could not have
originated in that House ; and his Noble Friend, who wished to
bring it before their Lordships, and who had bestowed great at-
tention on the subject, was for a long time in doubt whether he
could even bring the subject before their Lordships without a
breach of the privileges of the other House. Under such cir-
cumstances, he was sure their Lordships would not think he was
wanting in respect to them in not bringing the subject before
them, after his Noble Friend was prevented. As to the inquiry
proposed by the Noble Earl, there might be some necessity, if
their Lordships were not Satisfied on this point, to get further in-
formation as to the price at which foreign corn could be imported.
As to the remunerating price—though this was a phrase he did
not like to use--the Resolutions proposed were founded on what
was understood to he a fair remunerating price. As to the other
points for inquiry proposed by the Noble Earl relative to Ireland,
and the effects of the bonding system, their Lordships must be
aware, that if they were to enter into an inquiry of this exten-
sive nature, that they could not bring it to a conclusion this Ses-
sion; and when they recollected the number of interests con-
nected with this question, and the agitation it had already occa-
sioned, they must see that no evil could be so great as not coming
to some decision. If their Lordships entered into an inquiry, it
should be seduced to the narrowest compass possible, in order to
settle the question before the close of the Session.
The Earl of MALMESBURY explained, that he
did not feel that there had been any disrespect on the part of the
Government to their Lordships.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH said, if the Noble
Earl opposite was not satisfied with the information before their
Lordships, it was his business to move for a Committee.
Earl BATHURST had never said, or meant to
say, that the Government was not fully satisfied with the infor-
mation it possessed ; what he had said was, that if any Noble Lord
were not satisfied, lie might move for further information. The
Government had formed its judgment, and could not influence the
judgment of their Lordships by submitting to them the papers
which had guided the decisions of the Government.
Lord KING said, if the Noble Earl opposite
thought that any measure could settle the question, short of doing
justice, he was mistaken. Certainly the present plan would not
settle it. The Noble Earl found himself in great difficulty. He
had not learned his lesson properly. He was unable to answer the
objection of this Noble Lord and that Noble Lord, and the other
Noble Lord. His brief had been put into his hands, but he had
not come up to the mark. He would recommend him to buy a
little catechism which had been published on the Corn Laws, which
would enable him to answer all the fallacies of the Noble Peers op-
posite to him. For example, some Noble Lords said time Corn
Laws were not the cause of our distress. This, the Noble Earl
would find, was the fallacy, No. 49. The answer was, that they
did deprive the people of employment, because they would not
allow them to sell their pots and pans, and with them buy corn
from any body but English landholders; and these landowners
would not give them as much corn as would keep soul and body
together. As to remunerating price, this was fallacy No. 82.
A remunerating price was there stated to be necessary to the agri-
culturist; but the answer to it was, that the agriculturists asked
a remunerating price for what they were not asked to produce, and
which might be got better elsewhere—(hear, hear.)—They per-
sisted in producing what nobody wanted, and insisted on being
paid for it ; and the propriety of this might be judged of by sup-
posing the manufacturers to make the same claim.
Lord R EDESDALE thought the latter quotation

had let the cat out of the bag. The question was, should this
country be cultivated or not—(Hear, hear !)—He knew, as had
been stated by the Noble Earl (Stanhope), that several persons
were preparing to leave the country, and would leave it, if the
proposed measure were carried. He knew it ; and knew they
would go to France, because that country had adopted our sys-
tem of Corn Laws, which would ensure them prosperity. France
knew the utility of these laws, as America knew the utility of our
navigation laws ; and while we were abolishing, those countries had
adopted both our Navigation and Corn Laws. A great opposi-
tion of feeling prevailed between different classes of the commu-
nity, and the Lord Mayor and Aldermen of London had presented
a petition to their Lordships, praying for an alteration in the Corn
Laws. But whatever weight might be attached to a petition
coming from so respectable a quarter, it might be conjectured
that the citizens of London; were prejudiced by having an exclu-
sive eye to their own particular interests. Their Lordships knew
that at one time their House had been voted useless; and the rea-
son was, that the influence of landed property had been excluded
from the House of Commons ; and if they were considerably to
diminish the influence of landed property, the House of Lords
might be again voted useless, the Constitution would be destroyed,
and the land-owners reduced to the condition of the Nobles of Po-
land. He insisted that the Corn imported from foreign countries,
in exchinge for our manufactui es, would impose a tax on the
agriculturists to an amount far beyond any advantage that could
be gained.
The Earl of DARLINGTON observed, that
when he complained of the delay in bringing forward the Corn
Question, he did so without any invidious intention. He was
the less disposed towards any further inquiry at present, as such
an inquiry, if it went any length, might prevent the decision of
the question this Session; and the cause of his complaint, that
the subject had not been brought forward sooner, was, that the
country was in a state of great agitation and distress, and this
question ought therefore to be settled without delay, since delay
would he mischievous. He certainly did not think the plan
proposed by Ministers so objectionable as some others thought it ;
and although it was not, perhaps, so good as it might be, he con-
sidered, as one, that it might be very beneficially adopted for the
present.
The Earl of ROSSLYN observed, that if there
should be an inquiry, it ought to be of a very limited nature, as
he had no desire to protract the decision of the question. •
Earl BATHURST begged leave not to be under-
stood as saying, that any further inquiry was called for. What
he meant was, that the necessity for inquiry ought to be pre-
viously shown ; and if, upon that showing, an inquiry should be
instituted, it ought to be of such a limited nature, that it would
not protract the decision of the question beyond the present Ses-
sion.
The Earl of MALMESBURY stated, that there
were returns already made from the Consul at Odessa, where there
were 600,000 quarters of wheat, last September, to be sold, at
71. per quarter. He proposed that the word " Alexandria" be
substituted for Odessa.
The Returns were then ordered. _

. -
Lord YARBOROUGH presented several petitions
from the Agriculturists of various parts of Lincolnshire, against
any alteration in the Corn Laws.—Laid on the table.
Earl BATHURST, alluding to certain Returns
from the Custom-house, ordered by the House, stated that he held
in his hand a Paper from Mr. Irving, stating the reasons why he
had not been able, within the proper time, to make the Return.
Their Lordships were well aware of the ability and attention with
which Mr. Irving managed his business; and the Noble Lord
who moved for the Return was, lie believed, perfectly satisfied
with Mr. Irving's reasons.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH said that he was sa-
tisfied.
Lord KENYON presented a petition from. Peck-
barn against any further Concessions' to the Catholics.
The Earl of ROSSLYN presented a petition in fa-
vour of the Catholic Claims, from Hull.—Both laid on the table.