The Sun.
London, England, 1845-02-21 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, Feb. 20.
POST-OFFICE ESPIONAGE.
Oa the motion of Mr. T. DUNCONIBE the order of '
the day for the adjourned debate on the Post-effiee in- '
quiry was read.
Mr. M. MILNES said tl.at he did not know that he
should have intruded on the House in this debate, but
for the accident that he had lately travelled through the
countries in which the unfortunate events referred to
in the debate had occurred, and he had observed the un-
happy effect produced on the minds of the people in
foreign countries by these unfortunate occurrences.—
(Hear, hear.) He had observed that there prevailed
the utmost suspicion and the most painful surmises at-
tached to the conduct of this country—(Hear, hear).—
Surmises not the less painful because he knew them to
be unfounded—suspicions not the less obnoxious be-
cause he knew they were absurd.—(Hear, bear.)
(There was considerable talking in the House, and the
Hon. Gentleman paused for a moment. The Speaker
repeatedly called out " Order, order, at the bar.") It
had long been the privilege anu the honour of this coun-
try that it had afforded refuge and asylum to those who
were obliged to leave their own country, for political
differences or political oppression.—(Hear, hear.) He
thought that there was no more gratifying retrospect in
the history of this country than this,—that from the time
when Elisabeth gave refuge to these who fled from the
tyranny of Philip the Second, and from the persecution
of France, England received with open arms
the oppressed and persecuted from all nations—
and in the present day without distinc-
tion Liberals, Carlists, Italians, and Poles.
When he saw painful contests taking place beween this
country and France, and when he heard the French
Minister getting up in his place, and asserting that,
as far as he knew, that the communication by post was
absolutely secure, and when he saw that the English
Government could not make the same assertion, he was
led to the conviction that England had obtained through
the continent an injurious reputation. When he heard
in the streets of Germany songs sung on this subject, it
was no consolation to him to see his Right Hon. Friend
the head of the Home Department the hero of the
fable—(Great laughter)—although he believed that
no Government was less inclined to interfere with
the liberty of the subject than that of the Right Hon.
Baronet. Yet he thought what had taken place was
not calculated to allay the suspicion that had been ex-
cited towards him. The wife of Caesar must be above
suspicion—(Laughter)—and so must her Majesty's Mi-
nisters—(Continued laughter)—but if she had not been
able to answer the plainest question in the simplest Eng.
lish—(Great laughter)—he feared that that Right Hon.
Lady could not have remained above suspicion. No
doubt a great degree of the unpopularity attached to her
Majesty's Government was owing to the want of their
not having met it in the first instance with simplicity
and candour. He did believe if the question had been
met without difficulty or mystery, when the question was
first brought forward by the Hon. Member for
Finsbury, it would have saved a great deal
of the pain which had been inflicted on the country.
If his Riglit Hon. Friend, instead of investing the subject
with all kinds of difficulty, had sitially asserted what he
real circumstances were, and declared the matter of
opening the letters of M. Mazzini and others had no con-
nexion with his immediate Parliamentary duties, but
was an act of a compulsory nature. Ile was asked and
compelled to sign these warrants! For his part, how-
ever, be did not see why the Right Hon. Baronet was
called on to sign the warrants at all. The Act of Par-
liament requires only one of her Majesty's principal Se-
cretaries of State to sign the warrant, and he thought it
would have been much better had Lord Aberdeen
taken the matter upon himself. If this course
had been pursued, Lord Aberdeen would hove been
able for give an answer when the question was
first mooted, and whether satisfactory er not,
it would have appeared, in a great degree, the
public indigation against the Government in this parti-
cular. Suspicion had been allowed to grow up—misre-
presentations had been allowed to grow up, with the
determination, on the other side, not to set anybody
right. The consequence had been, that at this moment
there was a most general and painful feeling pervading
the country with regard to the question before the
House. He would, with the permission of the House,
say a few words upon the two divisions in which the
question had been brought before the House. The first
division was connected with foreign affairs, and the
second was connected with the opening of the letters of
the Hon. Member for Finsbury. With regard to the
first, he had thought it to be his duty to propose to her
Majesty's Government, on the previous night, a question
connected with it, and to a certain degree he thought the
answer was satisfactory. It was satisfactory, nit only
to himself, but to all whom he had consulted on the sub-
ject. The answer was, that the opening of Mr. Maszini's
letters was not connected with the unfortunate expedi-
tion of the Bandiera family. So far, therefore, as Lord
Aberdeen was concerned, he thought the explanation was
satisfactory, inasmuch as the opening of the letters was
shown to have no connexion with that unhappy band of
men. At the same time he should say that the whole of this
proceeding involved a very grave and serious question,
and one that affected the general and foreign policy of
the Government. In fact, if this proceeding was to be
recognised, the Austrian Government had nothing to do
but get the sanction of the English Government to
ir.vade Italy. But in the case now under consideration
that act had been committed by no diplomatic right.
It might be that this was part of a great scheme of
foreign policy ; but when the facts went forward to the
world, to the English people, that this act had had the
sanction of the British Government, it must be a source
of pain not only to the Government, but to every
Member of the House. He should also beg to say he
conct.ived it would have been the duty of Lord Aberdeen
to have given public notice in the newspapers and by
other means of the fact that the English Govern-
ment were aware of the existence of this conspiracy,
and determined to defeat it; anti if that had been done,
he (Mr. Milties) felt assured that this unhappy expedi-
tion would never have taken place.—(Hear, hear.) An-
other fact connected with this subject had come before
the House, and it was elle which the House would not
find as easy to dispose of as the others—he meant the
charge that had been made against the Government by
the H )n. Member for Finsbury, of opening his own
letters.—(Hear, hear.) They all had had experience of
how very indefinite were the privileges of foreigners;
but that had no reference to the opening of the Hon.
iii-mber for Finsbury's letters, and therefore he (Mr.
Vines) hop.d that Hon. Members on his side the
House %scold not refuse the Hon. Member for Finsbury
whit he tslt. d —(Hear, hear.) Ile (Mr. Milnes) did
th nk that Hon. Member hal a right to get a d.'tinite
answer from the Go'e' nun nt as to whether a w a.,1 ant.
had been i-sued fir opening- his letters.—(Cheers from
the Opposition benches.) The Hon. Gentleman knew
that his name had been mixed up with persons who had
her") suspected, and who had come under the sentence of
the la w.—
Mr. DUNCOMBE'.—Naine them.
fir. MILNES—Ore gentleman is an individual for

whom I have IT pelf a very great rc Fp( ct, Mr. Willia
Lovett.

--Go ol

!TTNCIIMF)I7,
Mr. 'Ai ILNES sail or:e. name was as p;ocel fU-- a bint
(1,-ed. The Hon. Gentint:n knew very well that the
live which tie had taken in p,litics bad nearly made hit
t 1 object--he would not :fay gre,
r, gar.t.—(Langhter.) Ile (Mr. Milnes) did not believe
that the warrant of which the lion. Gentkinan com-
pktined bud been issued unwiisely. At the some time, he
thous,ht the lion. Gentleman had a right to a full ex-
planation with respect to it. Now, one word as to the
motion of the Hon. Gentleman. It was stated on t
paper of the House that be demanded a new committee.
It would he in the r• coreeti, n of the House that the
puldic were taken very much b. surprise when they des"
covered that the power of (Telling letters was vested
in the Government. Air John ilanmer—than whom nu
man, for his age, was better read in the Constitution of
his country—was taken by surprise.—(Laughter.)
The fact of this ignorance being in existence proved,
lie thought, the innocence of the party exercising it.
He did think that if the Hon. Member had brought his
own ease under the notice of the House before that ef
Mezzini, it would have been brought with mush greater
weight. If his letters had been opened, it was his duty,
as a Member of Parliament. to come forward and mu'
the same charge then as now, and, must assuredly, ha 4
he done so on the spot, the sympathy of Hon. Members
would have been much more warmly enlisted in his
favour.—(Hear, hear.) He had, in a great degree,
weakened his case by his delay.—(Hear.) However,
he still thought the lion. Gentleman was justified in
asking the Right Hon. Baronet if a warrant had been
granted to open his letters, and that his Right Honour-
able Friend might answer that question. A very great
question exists as to whether the' present power
should be continued at all.—(Hear, hear.) His own'
feeling was in favour of a limitation of that power:
Hls
principal reason for not voting with the Hon. Member for
Finsbury was, because he believed that any Member who
voted for the motion gives colour of the most unjusli"
fiable suspicion and foul misrepresentation with respect to
the conduct of his Right Hon. Friend.—(Hear, hear.)
The arrows of calumny had been directed from all guar"
ters against his Right Hon. Friend ; he had been ex-
posed to the severest, and, in some cases, to the west
malignant censure. He was assailed by all the nevi;
papers, from the dullest down to the lively sallies 01
Punch—and he should have said, up to Punch, for cer-
tainly they are the best of Ml.—(Heer, hear,
laughter,
and cheers.) When he saw these things, he felt sit
honest indignation at the gross injustice perpetratea
upon his Right Hon. Friend. The Hon. Gentleman et)n.
eluded by again saying that he would oppose the motion;
Mr. MACAULAY then rose and said—Sir, I „.1/6,e
to explain the precise nature of the vote which ,1
about to give. I cannot vote for the motion o'
Hon. Friend the Member for Finsbury, and my resslie
for not doing so are twofol3. First, I think !.
motion in itself is objectionable, inasmuch as it ituPlief
a censure upon a Secret Committee of the House ,: t
Commons.—(Hear, hear.) My second reason is, tu„.s
even if the words of his motion did not imply lienstl'i
the Hon. Gentleman, when giving his notice, coupled?
with words which, even if it had been less strong*
worded, must have conveyed to the minds of all a nb.lea
racter of censure.—(hear, hear.) The original untleto
stood thus—it called the attention of the House,
the evasive and unsatisfactory nature of the Secret Coto'
mittee, and then went on to move, &c. In our Prc°,
ceedings, as every body knows, a motion is often Ofiatt
cider d es explained by the tepee ch of the GentleTteo
oho makes it ; and in this manner a speech is ° e're
thought to criminate a motion ; but how much
siren must ais impression become when tlw
not only strong, but th, nr,tion itself as it stands lot
the raver, is a species of ,:cncere?— Olean) On J.O
ground, if that were ail. I could not vote for the 151(11 if
of the Hon. Member. I believe the Committee did tl'oeir
duty honestly.—(Hear, hear.) From my own lc, t,
ledge of the Members who composed that Coninnteich
I believe they conducted themselves in a manner aPag
left no room for censure. And moreover we °NI
to be particularly cautious of passing censure on 100
committees, because the, members of them are, ay
their very nature, and from a sense of public dig)", floe
eluded from making stet• menus, or entering into their
circumstances which make their justification and their
defence.—(liear, hear.) These reasons appear tn
mind decisive agaiast voting for the motion. - M ould
posal has likewise been made that a Committee en tto
be appointed to inquire whether or not it be expedievitlipa'
continue the present p• actice. Why. Sir, in nlYe och
there is no need whatever for the appointment nhver,
Committee—the subject is ripe for legislation--k
hear)—and to a great extent I agree with the,A it
Member for Finsbury that legislation on the subrie,
necessary and desirable.—(Hear, hear.) For rnY'eodiff
have at present very little doubt discussion mays °bola
my opinion as to the principles on which this la 001
be guided. I cannot conceive how it could be Insu„iptec
that there ought to be any difference in the Prieltro"
between the way of treating a letter in its transit Di
ea to
the post and after it has been received by the per,' 0
01
whom it is addressed. The letter addressed to under_,
much my property—to the very same extent a" tier it
the same limitations—when in the mail-big, as - a
defo
has been delivered to me.—(Hear.) After a c;
consideration, I can see no reason for making Tao"
tinction. Both cases are, in point of right sll".erece•
perty, precisely alike. The very same inconverir
attaches to the perusal of my letter before as lut.ea
delivery—the exposure of my secrets takes place joso;
one case as well as in the other. As to public a„,,0010
tage, there is the same chance that the public jolt(
derive benefit and useful information from thtch
which has been delivered to-day, as from that u', 10
to be delivered to morrow. The right of the sub.„
his letter is subordinate to the claims of society,
one case as well as in the other. The convenienopi
opening a man's letter, sealing it up again, and for I coo
ing it, so that he may never know what was dour,' or
perfectly understand. In the same sense it mai L'e •TIS
ful to hire a servant who can pick locks, and °P;O or.
copy other persons' letters.--(Hear, hear, from t. Nom
position.) It may be useful and convenient, but VII oes
the whole, justifiable and beneficial ? Call fiee°'
point out to me a case in which a letter, which "" coos
fairly delivered to the rightful owner,
may not ha lea
verted to the same use and convenience? I w°tl
a power with the Secretary of State of sending w-after
to open any letter, but I would require that. gel!
certain time, that letter, which continued all Alen",
the property of the person to whom it nal juDl'
dressed (unless it was to be used "" la°
cial proceeding), should be forwarded t°to bim
with a stamp on the back of it, conveying rides
that it had been opened by the proper auliwt.eati°:l3,,
(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.) I may hear 01/B,is plr.;
;
that might change my opinions, but think 1“,„ be
ef
ciple is a sound one. lam aware that there 111%. be.,
conveniences from the adoption of this princire,;(ol
of
and there it might be desirable and more sutectosl6 of
procure other means, but we are not as Nte fee,
this House and as natives of this country at ll lbshed";
day to begin arguing the question whether
takes to be obtained by adopting the princieh'e. gOf e rot,
suing the designs of an arbitrary and despot'', ofl
ment, are or are not proper.—(!outi cries le efie'r,
hear," and cheers.) Should we restore thal„s°,eoln.bo;
pinnage and cruelty which exi.t.'d her. .re the eters, or
although it was there found not onlyo
as the politicians of the day contended, ab4"lut otting"
nary ? 'When I said the other night that
OPa 0,0
fuivaogely nee
the torture had been in some instances fiuosefer
tageous, there were cries of no, but history doe
ono
but, Sir, the question is are we Englisbnierwr fits flute
perience which we have, to forfeit the belle 4 pn_ea
we derive from the security and confidence of 0,01`,0
life—to trust that no unfair advantage WI gatle,tiresl,
of us—for a system which though it Illiqfpece.,'d
ba
be attended with utility, destroys that con'!" AO' afeel
and security.—(Hear, hear.) I think a 1311 ;hose ct„ifts
brought in, founded on principles euels oged Oftlieti
to the House—to such a Bill I would be dist tbett.io
my sanction. Another part of the question b 7.. for ,:tir
relates to the complaint of the Hon. Mem GeSeer,
bury. I must declare my opinion that the ,1'0„....-(1010
man is entitled to have that matter cleared tzt",, ill tied
hear.) A Member of Parliament stands bete Wore
House, and tells you that his letters hove be eon .Ive
in their transit through the post, and the deny "deo Woes
it. The Right lion. Gentleman does Itt' o might fothr
(Hear, hear.) He may say that a discloslo 00.0
boo
injurious ; but, Sir, after what the Bight_ what I
man has said upon other cases, I do not,scuer,
it would do to speak out upon this.---(Hen be attendee
defy defy any human being to tell me how it (Tu. gon.
with any danger to the State, for the Itigt'arrant l,iiiesr,
man to say that he had never issued
3 tletoso.--;ja pos
opening of the letters of the Hon. Gfno which I.ne no
hear.) There is anther circumstance t pc
attach much importance at the time, umistopiel,l;glei
strikes me forcibly, which creates a stroll., snipe
la
the Government have not dealt fairly by we
and which requires explanation. this ilcillgetliber
to grant a Committee in
the goo.
,drembe
year, it teemed but fair that
..__id be "`„ereea,
who brought forward the charge 11 u
3 recollection_t, sr
of that Committee; for, as far as n2Y,._namittee t_oi[eilot
I have scarcely ever known a urn which .10"feol_e;
pointed by the House of Coninions,_ard, .0?
irooffto
Member who brought the matter forsw not n ebt
But I' slier r fbe
for and obtained the Committee, "11.. wa6 f'913.11.fr
Member of it.—(Hear, hear.) and pee. toee ,
new ,us ee
constitute this Committee on a e _ and in ,)
ciple, and it was said that, in faire
ought
ought
of the
Fi
Hon. Member, who was the licenser,
at and 10 0,
eluded ; every Member of
secluded, for it °a
sot° sot
Government was likewi' e .ea fair e,„ 001!
that the question would not unc,lielldoi. for rrnistretiebt
tory investigation, if the Hon. 13a
were Members of it. The and candour, arida the Brlo.
a Member of either the late or presweenstcAsedrifedrolitenW.
this great show of justice
Gentleman:l3Pc'of the °on
d constitution _ or A,
voted with the Right Hon• day
ciples that the construction an But in Ditto in
01;0.
mittee was to be so pectiliarlytou
ut a C°rPineY man e 0
the Government had to constit enow did to oioTaof
o.
House of Lords.—(Hear, Ileal.te),,,es. were ss,
Did they act on the princiel Not
of Colt or""'" --Ot Div Chan".
carry out in the House arty-men of ex
rtior
tration, 9.11'" Constrl- ler
Committee was composed P,r
cellori.—(Hear, bear.) Til"sr_e „sy (,ere here ,ore
the late and of present Adinieie,a,or; for not e 0 eva,to
the CillTlmitt, e there in the be d, ~t to be
c._lo
as possible. If justice cool`lenu.f, how was l_atter :Lot
Members of the two Goverem,
jc :con 0 the rision et it
there?--(Hear, hear.)
1311'; e,ireffil ttein• 1410'
into the House of Loros, a - „Iv forgot
_.O
•es w en.. .. Neu
chiding particular parties fp,•
„ e
0_
~,e,
be
it dees appear to me that, I,
el,ill
-hero
Lion of the co,Etructio:, of fi. •r„c,s Dees% via
ilaitAl _wets . r
of Lords, the siiseieien
itr
the.o orco for yr, aes
moved fr-in my mind.' Ijn( :ow grounds
ve....--foi4h)
certainly d ,es app .iir to be ,__v.! been 0Pet.....(A. vice,
that Mr. Daileimi he's tf 11., lonth
13,1 Orr ot° 1.0
hear.) The Hon. M, ether 11") "
rye
f all er;n"" tad
-4. i I believe him to bc,bays been e-
and yet representations trugl.l%_,l iueg°'
home Secretary, which ht