The Sun.
London, England, 1827-03-30 00:00:00

excited should be allowed to subside as soon as possible.—
It was for the same reason that he felt it his duty to oppose
the production of the papers now 'moved for. He could
not see what other effect the motion could have, than to
rip up occurrences which had taken place two years ago,
and would, but for this motion, have been forgotten.—
Since the period alluded to, these had been no disturbanoe
in Lisburne, and the Orangemen had abandoned their pro-
cessions.—(Cheers.)
Mr. S. RICE contended, that the production of the
papers moved for could occasion no consequences snore in-
convenient than must necessarily result from the debate which
had taken place in the House, and enforced the arguments
of the lion. Member for Armagh, as to the conduct of the
Rev. Mr. Johnston, and the letter written to that Gen-
tleman by Lord Manners, the Chancellor of Ireland.
Mr. PLUNKETT said, that the House would feel that
he could scarcely give a silent vote ,upon the present occa-
sion, He did not agree with those Hon. Gentlemen who
treated the question as a question of fact : the fair question
he thought was this—whether the lion. Members for Ar-
magh and Limerick had made out such a prima facie case
as called upon Government to produce the correspondence
referred to ; and he had no hesitation in saying that, in his
opinion, no such prima facie case was established. In
fact, he did not recollect ever to have heard a com-
plaint brought before the House, which had been pressed
with more earnestness, or been snore destitute of real ground
to stand upon. It was difficult to collect the object of the
complaint. He gave every credit for purity of motive to
the Hon. Gentleman who had introduced it ; but he did
not see what practical advantage was to be gained by in-
vestigating the history of an insulated transaction, which
was two years old, and which everybody had forgotten.
The Hon. Member for Limerick had expressed Isis regret
that he (Mr. Plunkett) should take upon himself the task
of defending the Lord Chancellor of Ireland. He had no
doubt that this regret was meant in a complimentary
sense ; but it was a compliment which he could not accept,
for he had no hesitation in saying that upon the present
transaction, as well as upon every other point connected
with the administration of justice, he was most per-
fectly ready to identify himself with that Noble Lord.
It could hardly be necessary, he hoped, for him to defend
himself against every imputation of favour to Orange prin-
ciple or Orange feeling. In office, and out of office, he had
incessantly showed himself an enemy to the Orange system,
and had done his heat to put it down. In his endeavours to
accomplish that end, he might perhaps be accused of haste
or indiscretion ; hut there were few who would refuse him
credit for having been sincere in his endeavonrs. There-
fore, while he agreed with his Hon. Friend near him (Mr.
Oonlburn), that the great body of the Orange party was
composed of as honest, independent, and worthy men as any
in Ireland, yet he thought that their very connexion with
that system poisoned all their utility, and defeated all the
advantage of their existence to the country.—Now, in the
case of the transaction immediately in question, his Hon.
Friend, the Solicitor-Genaral for Ireland, (with himaclt),
had been consulted, as to the exhibition of processions of
the same character with that of the 12th of July; and they
had at once been of opinion that they were illegal. The
society, whether it were one of Masons or of Orangemen,
being illegal, it followed that its procession must be ille-
gal ; and it was farther illegal, because it was sworn upon
affidavit, that it was likely to lead to a breach of the
peace. Then what, upon the showing of the Honoura-
ble Member for Armagh himself, had been the conduct of
Mr. Johnston ? Mr. Johnston had thought, and thought
very weakly, that because the word " proce 'ion" did net ap-
pear in the Act of Parliament, therefore the procession could
not be illegal ; but that was Mr. Johnston's opinion only.
The question now, was not upon his opinion, but on his
conduct. From what had been said by the Hon. Member
for Limerick, the House might be led to suppose that Mr.
Johnston had promulgated this opinion to the mob, but
he had done no such thing ; he had expressed his opinion
to the Magistrates, but to the mob he had used no advice,
but that they should at once yield to the law, as it was
laid down to them, and disperse : and they had, in conse-
quence, dispersed without any breach of the peace, and
from that day to the present there had been in Lisburne no
similar procession. The mob were aware of Mr. John-
ston's opinion ; but' they yielded to his advice; and, in-
stead of producing mischief, he had rendered a service to
the country. And now what was the charge against Lord
Manners ? It was, that he had written a letter to Dlr.
Johnston, in which he explained to him that he had been
mistaken in his view of the law, but had approved of the
conduct which he had actually pursued. Why, this
was exactly the true state of the case—Mr. Johnston's
law had been wrong, but his conduct had been judicious
and considerate. There was no congratulation in the letter
of Lord Manners. It merely said, " You are altogether
mistaken in your view of the law as to these processions, but
I am happy to find, from your explanation of your conduct,
that you have done all in your power to discourage them ;
and that the unpleasant duty does not devolve upon me
of passing censure upon an individual of respectability."
There was one part of Mr. Johnston's conduct, certainly,
which he condemned—he meant the ',rearing of the Orange
riband. This had been made the subject of a good deal of
rhetorical exaggeration. It had been called a " coming
down decorated with Orange emblems," &c. The short
fact was, that he had come down with an Orange riband
about his neck—a sort of decoration which he had been in
the habit of wearing for years ; but there could be no
doubt, that to do so at such a time had been indiscreet.—
Still Mr. Johnston could not be prosecuted for wearing an
Orange riband. To have removed him from the magis-
tracy for doing it, would not only have been unreasonable,
but highly impolitic and mischievous. And giving, agile re-
peated he did, every credit to the sincerity and puce intention
of his Hon. Friends the Members for Limerick and Armagh,
he could not help doubting whether it had been worth while
to rake this stale story out of the oblivion into which it had
fallen. He left this question to the House. The intention
of the Hon. Gentlemen, no doubt, was excellent ; but the
circumstances had all happened two years since; they were
forgotten over and over again ; and the place in which they
had occurred had ever since been perfectly tranquil.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT regretted deeply that the Right
Hon. and Learned Gentleman who had just concluded,
should have condescended to identify himself with the Lord
Chancellor of Ireland ; and he believed that in many in-
stances that Noble Lord had exercised his own powers with
respect to the magistracy of Ireland in a manner which,
he repeated, he could not bnt be sorry to hear the Attorney-
General for that country defend. He was certain that the
processions of Orange Associations did snore mischief to
Ireland than any thing else, by reviving feelings and recol-
lections which ought to be buried in oblivion.—(Cheers.)
Mr. PEEL thought that the question upon which the
'House had to decide was this,—is there such a prima
facie case made out as to satisfy the House that farther in-
vestigation was necessary ? For his own part, he thought
that there never was a' case produced to which less suspi-
cion attached. He thought that he should argue the ques-
tion fairly and properly, if he took this view of it—that a
magistrate had or had not acted improperly, and that the
Chancellor of Ireland had or had not supported and en-
couraged him in his improper conduct. First, however,
he must be allowed to say that he heartily wished all these
associations were at an end—(Hear, hear;) he believed
that they were dying away, but at the same time he did
agree with the Hon. Baronet, that if the processions were
done away with, it would be better for the peace of Ire-
land,—(Cheers.)—Any opinion, therefore, which he might
hold—any of the strong opinions which he was known to
entertain respecting Catholic emancipation, could net fairly
be supposed to enter upon this point, or to influence him
upon the prevent question. If he were a private gentleman
in Ireland, be declared to God that he would, by his influ-
ence, by his example, by every means in his power, endea-
vors'. to put down these associations and processions (Cheers).
With respect to the question before the House, they were now
called upon to investigate circumstances which had happened
two years ago. He held in his hand the statement of Mr.
Johnstone, respecting these circumstances, and Isis motives.
It must be recollected that the person in question was a
very old gentleman ; that be had been in the habit of see-
ing these things done all his lifetime, and at times when
exhibitions of this nature were not looked upon in the way
in which they had subsequently been viewed. Some
allowance must be made for circumstances and example,
and a little consideration should be had for persons, and
adherence to former opinions. He did intreat his Hon.
Friend (for he must allow him to call him so) to recollect
that this circumstassee took place in July, 1825, and that
in the Marsh preceding, his Hon. Friend had presented
the petition of the Orangemen, which prayed an inquiry
into the institution, objects, signs, oaths, and paes-vrords
of the Orange lodges in Ireland, and stated that the Orange-
men were most anxious for inquiry. He (Mr. Peel) had
taken a part in the debates of 1825, and he then held pre-
cisely the same language which he held now, and said that
nothing could compensate for the existence of these asso-
ciation. He never could agree to the production of pal'!"
which would inculpate parties who had no
'disposition
whatever to violate the law, and under theses eirenrosstancas
he should decidedly oppose the motion. -
Dr. LUSHINGTON said, that ° night Hoe. Gen-
tleman opposite had pronaul;ated Alt
the doctrine, that the
beat way to judge of Mr. Johnstmes motives, was to refer
to that gentleman's eawnsetatement. For his part, how..
ever, he thought the facts of the case would be a much
surer guide to this point. It was stated, that one of the
,arties which formed these_ processions marched ander his