The Sun.
London, England, 1845-06-02 00:00:00

GROUP F.

The Committee met again this day at twelve o'clock, the Right
Hon. F. Shaw in the chair.

The Committee resumed the inquiry into

THE LONDON, WORCESTER, AND SOUTH
STAFFORDSHIRE RAILWAY.

Hr. Cocisus N said he had a great deal of engineering evidence
to adduce, but in consequence of what fell from the Committee
yesterday he would not call those witnesses. He would now call
an engineer of the very highest eminence, whose evidence was
most material to the case. He would call Mr. James Walker.

The CHAIRMAN—Before the proceedings commence, I think it
right to mention that people are in the habit of writing me letters
upon the subject under consideration ; and I am of opinion that it
is right the parties on both sides should see them, if they think
proper, for I shall not read them.
Mr. COCKBURN—I hope, Sir, that they do not emanate from the
Great Western parties ; indeed, I think not.
The CHAIRMAN—I do not say that. All I say is, that they are
on the subject of this inquiry.
Mr. COCKBURN—I can assure you, Sir, that they are in the
habit of addressing me upon the same matter, as counsel in the
case.

The CHAIRMAN—That is all very proper.—CA laugh.) Here are
two letters which I shall place on the table, and I cannot but ob-
serve that it is highly reprehensible for parties to send such corn.
munications. They can have no weight with the Committee.
Mr. Walker, examined by Mr. COCKBURN—I am not connected
with either of the schemes before the Committee. I received a
communication from Mr. Brunel, containing some questions to
which my attention was directed, and a copy of that communication
has been forwarded to the London and Birmingham parties. I
have examined the plans pointing out the railways with both
gauges, and they show the two systems very plainly indeed,
with respect to the accommodation to South Staffordshire.
The distance from Wolverhampton to Oxford is, according to
the plans, fifteen miles shorter by the Great Western line than by
the other, and assuming that from Wolverhampton to Abbot's
Wood there will be a narrow gauge as well as a broad gauge rail,
and taking into consideration the saving of fifteen miles by the
broad gauge line, I think the Great Western line is entitled to the
preference for the South Stafford district. When I say that, lam
assuming the engineering difficulties to be the same. Indeed, I
more than think so—l am sure it is the best line of the two.
There is no danger in laying down the broad gauge with the
narrow. About six or eight years since I proposed the laying down
of the broad gauge on the narrow gauge line.
The CHAIRMAN—Where was that ? Witness—l proposed to have
it laid down at Stratford, where the Northern and Eastern joined
the Northern Counties Railway.
The CHAIRMAN—Was that recommendation carried out ? Wit-
ness—No it was not. As regards the public the broad gauge
should not be kept back. As regards my own interests, were I
governed by them, I should prefer the narrow to the broad gauge ;
my interest would lead me to give the narrow gauge my support.
Mr. COCKBURN—WeII, then, you are the more valuable to us as
a witness.
" "

Witness—My attention was some time ago directed to a line of
railway from London, through Worcester and North Wales, to
Holyhead.
The CHAIRMAN—Did you form an opinion at that time between
the importance of the line you were called upon to consider and the
existing line to Holyhead, as to making Port Dynllaen the packet
station to Ireland.

Witness—l considered that the Holyhead station was the best
but I also gave it as my opinion that Port Dynllaen was a very fine
natural harbour and capable of great improvement.
Cross-examined by Mr. AUSTIN—Those who accompanied me
at that time were divided as to the superiority of both harbours.
Some reported in favour of Dynllaen and others in
favour of the Holyhead. I was most decidedly in
favour of Holyhead. The last railway that I gave up
was the London and York last year: The last one that I con.
structed was the Hull and Selby, several years ago. I am new em-
ployed by the Birmingham Canal Company. I understand it is
iutended that a line of railway should be laid down along the banks
of the canal, but I know nothing more. The course of the line is
not fixed yet.
By the CHAIRMAN—I think Mr. Brunel would be unwise to
pledge himself as to a locomotive or an atmospheric line for North
Wales, until he has ascertained the result of the great experiment
with regard to the atmospheric which is about to be tried.
L.e.examined by Mr. COCKBURN—I thank the company which
"ne from London to Worcester would be more likely to
had the e whole line than any indepei:
;
dent company
carry on k I.
up. Unless it is do.
which mighte e in that
probability of its being dou.e at all.
way, there its no gr.:..tt
ham Company would do it, becaus:e any
I do not think the it ham
be taken from the trunk 111... e•
passenger going by that line wo.uld
I think this line an object of nationai .importance. Looking at the
question as a large public question, I thii;.k of the plan of the two
gauges to Wolverhampton, that to Abbott's Wood is the best for
SouthiStaffordshire.
By Mr. V. STUART—Is that founded on your opinion that the
communication with Oxford is the best for South Staffordshire, or
merely on the tact that there will be a saving of 15 miles?
Witness—l believe that it would be more advantageous to
South Staffordshire to have the communication open with Oxford.
Examination continued—l consider the broad gauge best for
great velocity. I have travelled fifty-seven miles an hour within
the last week on the broad gauge. This velocity has never been
attained on a narrow gauge. The four.feet eight-inch gauge can
never accomplish the same speed as the broad gauge.
Mr. AUSTIN then drew the attention of Mr. Walker to the pas.
sage in his report, in which he says that the marrow gauge
on may
equal the broad gauge in velocity if they would only put a
sufficient power.
Mr. Walker said, that when that report was made he had no
idea that the Great Western would have gone so much si.heaadli.
the
Mr. COCKRURN—If the whole question were open, and
choose
railways had to be re-constructed, which gauge would you
Mr. Walker—The wide gauge certainly.
Mr Walker—The seven.
Mr. AUSTIN—Which wide gunge ?
ofurchasing land for four
great mistake in the first instance in not
lines for passenger traffic
feet gauge. I think all the great finest p
. railway committed a
lines. They will soon require one set
o
and another for goods traffic.
I think the question of shifting a matter
By Mr. V. STUART—
not of much consequence where it takes place. so great that it is
of very minor importance. The facilities are
The witness then withdrew.
Russell, M.P., examined by Mr. COCKBURN—I am Chair-
man ir
R
of the Great Western Company. As such I entertain no
doubt but that the suggested line from Worslden to North Wales
would be carried out by the Great Western Company if the line
were made to Oxford and Wolverhampton.
By Mr. AUSTIN—It would be carried out to Port Dynllaen or
to Holyhead. The estimates have not been made to my
knowledge. I believe if the line to Holyhead or Port Dynllaen
were made by en independent company, and it did not pay, it
would be worth the while of the Great Western Company to take
it to secure the Irish traffic to the Great Western Company. No
plan has been matured, but the subject has been discussed
by the Board of Directors frequently during the last
twelve months. it was not made a portion of the pro-
posed scheme to Wolverhampton. The alternative terminus as
to Port Dynllaen or Holyhead must have been discussed, I think, at
the Board ; but the question of the terminus depends upon the
formation of the port. I think there may be some minutes of these
discussions; I do not remember any distinct resolutions. We had
not a Bill in Parliament last year. The Chester and Holyhead
Company had a Bill last year. We did not oppose it.
Mr. AUSTIN—Did this line suggest itself until the Bill was in-
troduced ?
Mr. Russell—The line has long been the subject of contempla •
Gen. It was in eons( quence of the doubts which I had heard cast
on the intentions of the Company in the course of the
examination of Mr. Walker that I now come forward
to be examined. The Great Western 'CompaDY has
subscribed half a to the line to Flshguard and Pembroke.

If this Bill were passed I have no doubt but that the Great Western
would make the line to Port Dynllaen or Holyhead. No figure has
been mentioned as the probable cost, but railways cost less now_
40,0001. a mile less. I believe that they thought the North Wales
could be made. There are several lines of railway to be made by
the Great Western Railway, There is a project of making a line
of railway to Warwick and to Birmingham—that is by an indepen..
dent company. There is no subscription from the Great Western.
No engineer has yet been appointed. The question of gauge has
been left for future decision, 'Jut I have no doubt if the broad
gauge were carried to Rugby, it would be carried to Birmingham.
The company was formed a couple or months ago. There is also a plan
for carrying the broad gauge to Cheltenham. The eastern terminus
of it is at Shipton, on the proposed line of the railway from Oxford
to Wolverhampton. This is an independent company. If the
broad gauge should be carried to Shipton, the.line would be carried to
Oxford. The Great Western Company subscribed half the capital for
that line. There were reports by the Board of Trade in favour of
certain lines proposed by the South-Western Company in the south
of England. In consequence of an arrangement with the Great
Western, those lines were abandoned. The basis of that agree-
ment was to carry out the recommendation of the Board of Trade,
which was to discourage these competing lines. I do not think
they could carry any line to Exeter, so long as the circum-
tances remain as they are, or so long as the grounds of the
decision of the Board of Trade continue the same. If any alto.
rations were made, the Board of Trade might decide as
they could. There is an appeal on the subject from the South-
Western Company pending at present before the Board of Trade.
There is a case now pending for a line from Weymouth, the South.
Western line coming into it at Dorchester. We do not intend to
lay down a double gauge unless ordered to do so by the Board of
Trade. There is an application before the Board of Trade, on the
part of the Southampton and Dorchester line, for a double line of
rails. The Great-Western were resisting the introduction of a
clause into the Bill compelling them so to do, but they will do so
if required by the Board of Trade. The Grand Junction Corn-.
pany, as individuals, are promoting the Oxford, Worcester, and
Wolverhampton line.

Re-examined by Mr. COCEBURN—We should be mad to think
of making the line between Worcester and North Wales unless
we had the rest of the line. With regard to the west of Eng-
landlines, to which allusion has been made, there were three lines
proposed. The Board of Trade reported in favour of the Bath and
Weymouth, and of the Southampton and Dorchester lines. The
South-Western and the Great Western Companies agreed to abide
by the decision of the Board of Trade, and so the matter has stood.
By Mr. V. STUART—The principal traffic of the Welsh line would
be from Ireland, but there would also be a great increase of traffic.
The Fishguard line will be in communication with Wexford-
There is a line of railway proposed from the north of Ireland to
Wexford. It would certainly, notwithstanding this, be worth
our while to make the North Wales line. It would decidedly be
worth our while to make both lines. The one would be a feeder
for the south and the other for the north.

Mr. James Pym, examined by Mr. COCKBURN—I am the treasurer
of the Dublin and Kingstown Railway, since the year 1831. I
have considered the question as to the best mode of communication
between Dublin and Loudon. Some years since I turned my at-
tention to the line from Port Dynllaen and Holyhead. lam aware
of the proposed line by Chester and Holyhead. I think competition
would be highly desirable. I do not think the Chester and Holyhead
line would carry out all the objects I have in view
in facilitating the communication between Dublin and London.
Mr. Walker's report states the saving of time in Dublin would be
five hours, but they are reckoned from the time the bags arrive at
the post-office and their departure; but practically we should
have not one hour. I believe the proposed line through Worcester
and North Wales would provide greater time for the accommoda-
tion of Dublin. Mr. Brunel says that the communication between
the two cities would take place in twelve hours. I believe if the
Great Western Company got the line to Worcester, it
would be greatly to their interest to carry on the line to
Portdynllaen, and open a communication from thence to Wick.
low or Dublin. If Portdynllaen were neater a port, the Dublin
and Kingston Company would carry on the line to Wicklow. The
passage between Wicklow and Portdynllaen is the shortest. There
was a large and respectable meeting in Dublin in favour of the
Portdynllaen line.
Cross-examined by Mr. AUSTIN—The subject was considered
by the Government last year and a representation was made to
them on the subject. They granted an annuity to the Chester
and Holyhead Company for the services in carrying out this line.
They would have concentrated the Wicklow and Dublin
traffic at Portydnllaen, and the southern traffic through
Wexford at Fishguard. That I believe is the intention.
If suitable harbours were made at Wexford and Fishguard, and the
Fishguard line is made, a considerable portion of the traffic of the
south of Ireland will pass by that route. The traffic from Sligo and
Galway would be concentrated at Dublin and go to Portdynllaen. I
also think it would have a large proportion of the Belfast traffic.
By Mr. AusrlN—Would not the result be that the Great Western
Company would by these schemes have bagged and put into their
pocket the whole of Ireland ?

The witness—l think it would be infinitely to our advantage
that they should do so if they will do it on these terms.—(A laugh.)
Cross-examination continued—By Mr. Walker's plan we should
have no time at all to answer our letters in Dublin. The four
hours mentioned by him would practically give us no time at all—
but by the other proposed scheme, though nominally we should
have enly two hours, yet really we should have four, because we
should have two hours each way.
By the CHAIRMAN—What I want to effect is, that the journey
between London and Dublin shall certainly be performed in twelve
hours.

Cross-examined by Mr. Calms—There is a Bill for a rail.
way to Bangor from Portdynllaen, to communicate with the
Chester and Holyhead Railway. This would be an important line
for persons going to the north of England from Portdynllaen, while
thosegoing to the south would go by the Worcester line. I expect
that if the Great Western Company get the line to Portdynllaen
they will also make the harbour, because it will be their interest
to do so.

Mr. Thomas Penson, examined by Mr. CRIPPS—I reside at
Oswestry, which has great communication with North Wales.
have been surveyor of the counties of Montgomery and Denbigh
for thirty years. My attention was drawn in 1636 to the pro..
priety of forming a railway from Portdynllaen. The project
then proposed was to go by Shrewsbury and the Vale of the
Dee. In 1840 the like by Worcester was strongly recommended.
At that time the scheme was considered a hopeless one, on ac-
count of the great length of the line. Unless a line is made to
Worcester, there is no chance of the formation of a North Wales line.
An Independent line from Worcester to Portdynllaen would beone of
the most miserable failures ever proposed. The principal landowners
in Wales would give their support to this line. 1 have seen the
harbour of Portdynllaen, and I cannot add anything to what you
have already heard from high authorities on the subject.
By the CIIAIRMAN —There are engineering difficulties, which
may be overcome ; but the line would fail fur want of traffic. It
would run through a thinly populated county.
Colonel Barlow, examined by Mr. Caters— I am the Chairman
of the Southampton Dock Company. 1 thmk it would be a great
advantage to Southampton to have a direct communisation with
Wolverhampton or the mineral districts.
Mr. Shaw, of Wolverhampton, examined by Mr. Cocxaußx—l
am a merchant. There was a public meetivg at Wolverhampton
last Monday, over which I presided. It was respectably attended.
A resolution was carried in favour of increased railway communi-
cation with the metropolis, and in favour of having a line to com-
pete with the Birmingham line, and in support of the pro-
posed Oxford, Worcester, and Wolverhampton line. They
wanted a competing line with the London and Birmingham
to secure a low rate of charges. They at present can get their
goods at Wolverhampton at a cheaper rate, by a circuitous route
of conveyance by canal or by the Great Western Railway than
they can by the direct route of the London and Birmingham line.
I think it would be most desirable that we should have a commu-
nication opened with Oxford and Southampton.

Mr. C. A. Saunders, examined by Mr. COCKBURN.--i am the
Secretary to the Great Western Company, and have been so since
its establishment in 1.833. 1 recollect in 1536 the Great Western
Company assisting in promoting the Worcester and Oxford line.
It did not succeed, partly in consequence of embarrass-
ment in the money market, and partly in consequence of
the Oxford and Lincoln line being thrown out. We got
the Bill for the Oxford and Sheffield line in 1543,
and it was opened in 1844. Ile always considered that the Oxford
line would certainly be carried out to Worcester. It was taken
up again this year on the application of the Staffordshire people. On
that application being made the Great Western Company stated there
should be an indication of the feelings of the Staffordshire people
and of the landowners on the line. The parties were told there
would be no disinclination to take up the subject, if we could be
assured of the feelings of the people, and the traffic would
be remunerative. We have always considered the Worces-
ter line would lead to a line to the Welsh coast.
I have no doubt but that if the Worcester line were completed,
a line to North Wales would follow as a matter of course. A
North Wales line of itself would not be remunerative as an inde-
pendent line, but in connexion with another it would. It is
worth the while of the Company to carry its line through a less
remunerative district to secure the traffic through the whole line.
That is the result of all railway experience. The Oxford and
Rugby line was not taken up seriously by the Great Western
Company until last year. It then became evident that it would
be important to secure communication between Rugby and Oxford.
It would be the interest of the Great Western to bring down the
traffic to us more freely. It would be our interest to work that
line most efficiently, because any passenger brought down by it
must be ours. We should have an undivided interest
in promoting that traffic, and the London and
Birmingham would not have an undivided interest, because
they would lose the passenger when he came on to the Great
Western line. It would be our interest to bring traffic to the
line, it would be theirs to divert it. It would be our interest to
work the line to Southampton. It would be our interest to in-
duce a passenger to travel from Rugby to Basingstoke by working
the line efficiently. The present course of passengers would be
to go from Rugby to London, and then to Southampton.
by the South-Western. By the proposed line passengers would
quit the train at Rugby, and go to Southampton direct by our line.
The object of the Tring line would be for their purposes what the
object of our line is for our purposes. It would sweep traffic back
t„ an easterly direction, instead of bringing it down to the south.
The ,;:est line to promote the interests of the public is ours, because we
have inct pecuniary interest in working it as efficiently as possible,
which
d the
.others have not, as it would open the traffic to the south.
It appears to me more important that the broad guage shouldrB goto
irtouapnpdesahou should
up than that the narrow. gauge should come down. it
this
ngboth with the
me that it would be is'r the
be considered neutral gipund, and shedouldabret
of
the original scheme
It form
broad and narrow gauge. public advantagelathidatd
epover that district as well
that there should be a narrew
portion the original agreement,
as a broad. It was
Adopted to obviate difficulties.
Yr of course, that the coal traders
stock of waggons in consequence
ed to have a double
would be obliged
Their barrow gauge waggons could be
of the change of gauge. 1.
f our trucks. If a new ine were opened at
placed upon one o
and
ddoies nnoott afollsocwhe,
wa ons would, in many places,
gauge, the coal •g 8
everya to be be altered, for the waggon used for the
scheme recently
a:erne-ant ttr
expensive locomotive waggon into the pit,
pith" is different from that used for a locomotive line.
They would not take an
it would not be economical. I have had frequent communicatious
with the Board of Trade. I made the offers with respect to the
Oxford ana Rugby. We offered to provide whatever might be
necessary for shifting loads at Rugby without expense to the public.
I communicated to them the proposal for the broad and narrow gauge.

I told them we were carrying coals on the Great Western at Id.
per ton per mile when we did not find the waggons, and 1 told them
we would do the same on the Wolverhampton line. Ido not
think that is the minimum. If we have large quantities I think
we might do it at ;,3,d. a ton. I never proposed to submit
the Great Western Company to the revision clause_
Last year, I think the London and Birmingham, joined
with us in opposition to the bill for the revision clause. I
was not then aware that the London and Birmingham had pro-
posed to the Board of Trade to subject themselves to the revision
clause. Several interviews were had with the Board of Trade,

the inconveniences of the plan were shown, and the clause
was taken out and another substituted, taking old
railways out of the operation of the revision clause.
1 was not aware that the London and Birmingham Company were
about to propose to submit to the revision clause, and, on the
contrary, I thought they would make no such bargain. Ido not
think that last year the London and Birmingham was so opposed
to the revision clause as the other companies. The power of revi-
sion as it now stands amounts to this, without preventing your in-
creasing your capita lor limiting your expenditure, the Legislature
says you shall not pay more than ten per cent., without subjecting
yourself to revision, and then you will be guaranteed ten per cent.
It would operate as a premium on extravagant outlay, and gives
you no encouragement to extend your trade beyond ten
per cent.; or to economise either. The only real and
efficient mode of check is a clause reserving a power
to revise the tolls. There could be no difficulty in
Sti&wepre..
t
keeping the expenditure CO as to avoid revision.
eniau
holsters, instead of getting an increased dividend, got
d`l not rt itan
public. t 7
in new shares. The present system of revision dine ur u o e
7he promoters of the Great westernha
otipopnortoufnitgyauogfemfebteifuogre thtahteofßothaerair
oofppoTnreandtse,. on I thdeiscqinaeiras.
any intention of finding fault with the asrd of Trade but In