The Sun.
London, England, 1829-03-19 00:00:00

No. 11,394.

LONDON, THURSDAY

he found another question put to the proposers of con-
cession at that period, which he (Mr. Bankes) was not
about to put, but which it might be fit to re-
peat—" But (said Lord Lyndhurst) I will answer
that question in my turn, by asking another; and I
ask, what are the securities which the Roman Catholics
propose to concede for the concessions which they re-
quire from us ?" Since that Noble Lord left the House
of Commons (continued the Hon. Member), he does not
seem to have set the same value on securities to which he
then attached so much importance when lie made that
speech. I very much wish that Hon. Members would
take the trouble to read it, because it contains a great deal
of curious matter relating to the subject generally, and to
the Noble Earl particularly and personally, who is now
elevated to the Woolsack and to a seat in his Majesty's
Cabinet. The sort of question I should ask is this
Ministers see the dangers of this subject in a different light
to that in which they viewed them last year and thq year
before? If they do not, then they mast allow me tc4ollow
up my first inquiry, by asking whether, by the 'esent
Bill, they would possess greater facilities than were given
by former measures in meeting and obviating thoseilifficul.
ties? • These appear to me the points to which it i>t a
sary to direct special attention."' The di V re'
either the same as they were-in 1827, or they are greater;
4f Way are die same, the answers made by the Right Hon.
Gentleman (Mr. Peel) on former occasions satisfy me, and
ought in my humble opinion to satisfy the House, that
there is no occasion for him and his colleagues to take a
different course, or for Parliament to follow them.—(ldear.)
If, on the other hand, the dangers are greater, then I say
that they are greater owing to the supineness and indiffe-
rence shown by Ministers with reference to that monstrous
and illegal power which has recently grown up in Ireland.
I have asked at different times, though I have never re-
ceived a satisfactory answer, for what reason they suffered
this morbid iinrosthutne, if I may so call it, to grow up in
the Constitution ?—(Hear.)--Why were no effectual
means employed to put it down or destroy it ?—(llear.)._
The Government, indeed, denounced it, and used harsh
expressions regarding its proceedings, but they did nothing,
or rather they nourished it, aud, by their inactivity and
criminal negligence, allowed it to arrive at that dangerous
point when to attempt to cut it off would perhaps have been
fatal. By this power they have been driven forward ; and
that now is their excuse. The Right Hon. Mover put it
so on the first night ; be admitted that with him and his
coadjutors it was not a matter of option ; they did not con-
cede it as an act of right and justice, or even as an act of
grace and liberality, but as an act of expediency—as a
choice of evils, as a mode of escaping from difficulties, and
as a course that was attended with less danger than any
other they could point out. I have said before, and I say
again, that there has been no reply to the question—Why
did you allow this necessity to arise? And I maintain
that the Bill we are now considering has entirely been oc-
casioned by threats and intimidation. In this view it is
not the work of Government, but of another power, which
has been allowed to undermine the public authorities in
Ireland. In this House, and elsewhere, we have heard the
Duke of Wellington lauded and magnified, and I should be
the last to object to almost any degree of praise applied to
him ; no man has ever deserved it more—for many great
and glorious acts; but this measure, whether it be evil, or
whether it be good, is not the work of the Duke of Wel-
lington and of the British Government, but of the Member
for the county of Clare.—(Hear.)—The blame for this
most fatal measure must rest with him, and the Noble Duke
will perform but an inferior part in the pageant of the
Catholic Association. " The World's Great Victor" will

" pass unheeded by ;" the hero of Clare will take the first
place in the triumphant procession.
"Nobili ()naafi' lauro collega secundo."

It may be a question whether our liberties are more likely
to suffer under a Popish Prince with a Protestant Cabinet,
or under a Protestant Prince with a Popish Cabinet. To
this I must reply fairly, that in the situation in which our
Constitution stands, in my opinion, it would be less danger-
ous to have a Popish King with Protestant advisers, than
a Protestant King with a Popish Ministry. It is now
universally admitted, that the Constitution, properly under-
stood, rests the acts of the Crown entirely on the heads of
its responsible servants ; and it would be much easier (as
indeed it would be their duty) for Popish Councillors to
operate on the conscience of a Protestant King, than for
the Sovereign on the Throne, if he were a Catholic, to in-
fluence his Protestant Ministers. I come now to that part
of the subject which it is also fit that I should touch—
What are the dangers, real or apprehended, whiCh may
threaten the country if the Bill now upon the table were
to pass ? Upon this point the Honourable Member re-
ferred to a passage in a speech of Mr. Peel, in the debate
of 1827, which, he said, expressed his sentiments in clearer
and stronger terms than any he could employ. There was
nothing in the various Relief Bills brought forward upon
this and former occasions to which he (Mr. Bankes) so
much objected to as the admission of Roman Catholics into
Parliament ; and as soon as lie found that Mr. Canning
made it a sine qua non, he had been obliged to leave him,
and from that time he had constantly opposed all concession
of the claims. The Right Hon. Gentleman, in the debate
of 1827, had stated that " the consequence of admitting
Roman Catholics into Parliament would be to bring the
Protestant and Catholic religions into collision in.such a
way as in the course of a few ages, perhaps, to lead to the
destruction of the former." He (Mr. Bankes) agreed in
this opinion in all respects but where it was said that the
contest might continue for ages; in his view, the march
of Catholicism would be much more rapid ; and even the
Right Hon. Gentleman, if this Bill were passed, as he was
at present in the prime and vigour of his life, might perhaps
witness the early fulfilment of his prophecy. This effect
followed regularly from the cause ; and how it happened
that Members who had once so clearly foreseen this danger
could not now discover it, Ile was at a loss to imagine.
Two points were to be considered. First, in what man-
ner the danger was to be avoided. He apprehended that
no man would deny that danger existed in the Roman Ca-
tholic religion itself ; and to say that it was not political
as connected with a sect which had obtained political power,.
was unintelligible. It was a religion of encroachment and
usurpation ; and if Roman Catholics were introduced into
the Legislature, what was to prevent them from subvert-
ing the Church of Ireland ? Secondly, he would inquire
what were the means by which they might accomplish
tkis object ? In the first place, an indefinite number of
Catholic Members would be returned from Ireland. He
supposed that there would be fifty or sixty, and that it
was not too much to calculate upon half the hundred Irish
Representatives being Catholics. Neither was Ireland only
to be looked to ; in this country there were many noble,
wealthy, and ancient families of that persuasion ; and when
seats in Parliament were to be the means of gratifying am-
bition, by procuring elevation, it was only natural to sup-
pose that they too would use their influence to return
Members. Seats in Parliament were procured in a thou-
sand ways—nunc prcemio, nunc pretio, nunc vi—and of
these ways wealthy and powerful Roman Catholics would
avail themselves on the first opportunity. Something also
might be done in Scotland, although he believed that the
Roman Catholic religion was not very prevalent there.
What might be the general feeling in Scotland upon this
Bill, he did not pretend to be informed; but he knew that
its sweeping enactments violated one of the articles of the
Union with that country, for the purpose of laying every
thing at the feet of the Catholic Association. Besides,
was it not likely that the Protestant Dissenters would
lend their aid to the purposes of th,?. Catholics I Were
they so enamoured of the Church Establishment, that
they would be ready to support it at all times, and at
all risks? The petitions on the table gave some indica-
tions of the state of their feelings, and without being
obliged to complain of religious disqualifications, they might
be anxious to be exonerated from the expence and the burden
of an establishment to which they (lid not belong, Very
lately opinions had been broached, that it might in expe-
dient to reduce the choreh at oppc to its pristine purity
and to its primitive poverty. At this moment popular
writers of strength and intelligence were advocating the
cause of the Catholics, not because they thought, as the
Right Hon. Gentleman and others contended, it would
support, but because it would subvert the establishment.
The House could not have forgotten, that in 1824 a mo-
tion was brought forward to bring the Church property
Ireland in aid of the wants of the State, and, on a di-isicn.
about eighty Members voted 'p its fayoul. These plight
be added to the CathgliP*Atetpbers from Ireland ; and with
such a force combined, marshalled, and arrayed, lie begged
to know for how many ages it?zwieannstml.ik_ye(lynt:artotl±eAstsrtuogtghlte,
le3aarrt.lholics seats in Parliament, lie
opinion, it will not
coulde
the
danger
strugglei,
oe fpigai tv ri ()g.
ft eands.oi7mga(l
begged again to quote a passage from the debate of 189i7-
‘, If (said the Right lop, 91e4t1Sr130) 114

- i
. . .r.
. . .
,;,....ik.,:1,-135.
..:0) c,,,10,8r ::* ' .t.; Si' :1,---5,111: :-
ss _ ..... . . . . ,
• -,. g7,----‘,l----,--7.
• - --"+"""fti....." , A 1 .01. CP:Vig ,i
71
.1
5te.." . -
( -lltsir
. dui: - 44-_".1400,,,
t ff -...,. _ ' i,`;:•-. ,',O, • 1<:1 .- kl / --,44
' \
\.
,1 I
s
:: --,-- -, - -it ... \
;Cdr
,'..-
KO ,•:,,, 4 • ~, - :-. s.
ri ---Aillik -
-- i 9 SY,W, .s - ~%,, /,, 4 - ,
. ',DA Sareti4,_ ,i. 41, '
"-‘4,341 i 1b,e`P.,7,11111. 'I
rigigNi -It° 'C''
X_l , ilL7iiiimwlik: •