The Sun.
London, England, 1842-04-19 00:00:00

THE STN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, APRIL 19, 1842.

strugeling almost with as much difficulty as the common labourer,
to maintain their families in that decent respectability which be-
come those possessed of education, and accustomed to the
comforts of life. But he had also stated that though
this tax would not directly affect the labouring class, it would
indirectly, by diminishing the means of employment. The
Right lion. Gentlemen had expressed the same sentiment in
1.033, yet now they were told that it must be a popular
tax, by taking advantage of the p •ejudice that
might arise that it solely affected the rich. They
might depend on it it would affect all classses of labourers,
and that the opinion of the Right Honourable Baronet
in 1833 would turn out to be a sound one. There
was another question with respect to the tax, and of which
very little notice had been taken in the course of
that debate, but upon which both Lord Althorp and the
Right Hon. Gentleman had expressed their opinion in
1833, he meant that portion of it which related to
Ireland. He was very glad that Ireland was
to be exempted from the tax. He thought it an inquisitorial,
an oppressive and unjust tax, and he was very glad
that one portion of the United Kingdom was to be
exempt from it.—( Hear, hear.) But he could not
understand why, if it was not desirable to have
an Income-tax in Ireland, it was desirable to have
taxes upon stamps and upon articles of consumption,
and to pursue these the reverse course to that which was pur-
sued in England.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") Why, if
these principles of taxation were right, why not apply
them to Ireland as well as to England If their
plan with respect to Ireland was right, why would not the
plan be as good in England and in Scotland? It was said the
machinery was wanting, but the Right Hon. Baronet proposed
to lay a tax upon the landed property of absentees, and there
must be some machinery to find out what was the income
arising from that property. The returns under the Poor-
law Act were to be applied to that purpose, but if applied for
that purpose they might also be applied to a still greater
extent. It was clear, therefore, that that was not a
sufficient reason for exempting Ireland from the tax. But what
said the Right Hon. Gentleman ix 1833, with regard to this
tax ? The Right Hon. Gentleman said "he wished to see Ireland
favoured as much as possible, ,but to impose a property tax
upon England and Scotland, and to exempt Ireland
from its operation would be the height of injustice.
( Hear, hear, and laughter, from the Opposition.) However
unpopular that opinion might be, he could not but declare that
he thought it would be exceedingly unjust."

Sir R. PEEL—Go on.
Lord J. RUSSELL said he had not the means of doing so—
he had thought that declaration sutilcient.—( Hear, hear. )
He could quite understand that what was inexpedient
in 1833, might, through a change of circumstances, become
expedient in 1842, but how that which was unjust in 1833 could
become just in 1842, quite exceeded his comprehension.
It there were passages in the Right Hon. Gentleman's
speech in which having proved that the exemption would
be unjust ; he proved that it would be exceedingly
just, it was not in his (Lord John Russell's) power to quote
those passages. One of the Right Hon. Gentlemen's col-
leagues had declared, that he could dress up a statement
to that House— (Laughter ) and it was very possible
therefore, that he had made a speech, proving both that
it would he unjust, and that it would be just.—(Laughter. )
The speech of the Right Honourable Gentleman on that
occasion contained the pith and substance of all the arguments
which had been urged against the tax in the course of that
debate, and he had felt great satisfaction in finding that his
own objections were those entertained by the Honourable
Gentleman in 1833. He had heard many attempts
made by Honourable Members in the course of
that debate to paint in dark colours the prosperity of the
country and to represent her means of meeting her enemies
in the most unfavourable light. These representations had
naturally awakened the indignation of his Right Hen. Friend
the Member for Portsmouth, and lie shared with him in that
feeling. Now, let them look at those portions of the empire
to which they were accustomed to look when taking a general
survey of its affairs. There was the United Kingdom of Eng-
land, Scotland, and Ireland in a state of tranquillity. With
respect to our foreign possessions, reference had been made to
Canada. For some years there had been a popular Assembly
existing in that country. That Assembly had made a demand
which implied a total independence of this country. The con-
sequence was that there had been an infraction of the great
constitutional principles that the revenue raised in Canada
should be applied for particular and specified purposes. Those
events had extended from 1822 to 1837. In the Parliament,
as now c instituted, he believed a very considerable majority
were well affected to the Crown and the Viritish empire. Some
hints had been thrown out of the danger of war in Europe,
but when did a Minister of the Crown propose a tax on such
a contingency? With respect to the melancholy reverse which
l.ad been experienced in India, it had been clearly shown that,
viewed in a financial point of view merely, that deplorable
calamity did not require the imposition of an oppressive, unjust,
unequal, and inquisitorial tax upon the people of this country.
Then, much was made of the state of our relations with
China ; arid really one member of the Cabinet, alluding to
our dangers with respect to China, spoke of the Emperor of
China as if he had been the Emperor Napoleon, and as
if the fleet of junks, at Canton, had been the flotilla at
Boulogne. (Cries of " Hear, hear.") He had used
language upon the subject, which no Minister would have ven-
tured to use in the face of the mighty dangers which threatened
the country in 1804 and 1805. Now he (Lord J. Russell) felt
no apprehension with respect to the war in China. It was
a war, it should he remembered, the expenses of which
were confined to the country in which it was carried on.
If they had a war with any of the Powers of Europe or with the
United States of America, they would find it necessary to
strengthen their colonial possessions, and they would take
care that there should bo no point either by sea
or land, at which their interests would be endangered. But no-
body would apprehend that the Chinese would capture Jamaica
or would attack Gibraltar, or do any of those things which
the Great Powers of Europe might be expected to attempt.
They had, besides, this alternative, that if the hmperor of
China should refuse to conclude a treaty, and to
put an end to hostilities, they might seize upon
some convenient sea-port in his dominions, and carry
on still their commerce with the Chinese. They might
hold either Canton or Chusan, and they would then be enabled
to carry on their trade more securely than they had done
during past years, when their Superintendent had been in-
sulted and the safety of their commerce constantly en-
dangered by the hostility of the Government of China.
But supposing that their expenses should be increased by the
Chinese war half a million a-year—suppose they should have
to pay the whole expenses of that war—and suppose that war
should continue for some years, still that could be no excuse
for the imposition of an Income-tax.—(Cheers.) He now came
to the second part of the subject, on which, no doubt, they
would all, hereafter, have frequent opportunities of speaking;
he meant that part of the Government proposition relating fo
the tariff. He had not any objection to the general prin-
cirees on which those alterations had been proposed. After
having, as a Minister of the Crown, advised her Majesty to
make that Speech with which she had opened the last Session
of Parliament, in which. after stating the necessity
that existed for raising the amount of the pudic re-
venue, her Majesty directed Parliament to consider whether
revenue could not be raised in the manner least burdensome to
the people, by a reconsideration of the import duties, and of the
duties on corm—after having, as a Minister of the Croon,
advised her Majesty to deliver that speech, he could not object
to the principles on which it had been proposed to effect
the present changes. But if the Honourable Gentlemen
opposite had, before the dissolution of the last Parliament,
made known the principles on which they intended to act—
if they had last year stated the principles they intended to
pursue, ho thought the proposal of those changes would not
have produced the panic which he now understood existed in
many parts of the country on the subject.—(Cheers.) It
would have been perfectly possible for them to have stated last
year, after saying that they had no confidence in the then
Government, teat, with regard to the general principles on
which the commerce of the country ought to be.
for the future, regulated, they were of opin;on that
there were many duties payable on the importation
of foreign commodities which ought to be reduced to a nominal
amount, and that in many instances in their opinion the prin-
ciple of protection had been carried to too great an extent.
If they had done so, the people and the farmers of this
country, who looked for plain dealing on that subject,
would have understood what was- meant; and seeing that both
of the great parties of this country, and that both Houses of
Parliament, were agreed upon this principle, they would have
have had time to consider, and would have concurred in the
proposal, whether it had been from one Government or the
other. But they seemed to him, even now, when they
had adopted this principle, to hesitate in saying that
which it seemed to him to be the only thing
that could be said on the subject, and which he had always said
from the first moment, that it might produce inconvenience,
injury, and loss to some extent, to those interests which would
be affected ; but that that loss would be repaid, and much more
than repaid, by the future general prosperity of the country.—
(Cheers.) But they did not do so: they were continually say-
ing, when speaking of the agricultural protection—there were
two things which they said, and which had been said
by the Right Honourable the Secretary of the Home
Department—that the price of the various articles of
consuinntion would be reduced, but, as had been said by the
Noble Lord the Secretary of Ireland, that the producer would
not find any reduction in their produce.—(Laughter.) His
wish was, that if they took sound principles they ought to be
prepared to avow them. With respect to many parts of the
tariff, he was quite ready to support it.—(Loud
cheers.) But there was one thing which he confessed
required explanation. There was a heavy duty on the impor-
tation of foreign copper, but they did not forbid smelting ; the
consequence of which was thatthey introduced into this country
copper used for the purpose of smelting, and that after-
wards that copper was sold at a lower price in foreign
countries than copper could be obtained at in this.
Two years ago copper went from this country and was sold 20
per cent. cheaper than it could be purchased for their own
dockyards. That was a proof of the absurdity of the law ; but
if they proposed to change it, they must also abandon the argu-
ment they stood by in the case of sugar.—( Hear, hear.)
In the present case they were favouring the mines of
Cuba, mines worked by slaves.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.")
They refused to change when the question was between the
consumers of sugar and their own slaves in the West Indies,
and they abandoned it when it was between slave produced ore
and the mines of Cornwall. It might be right, but let them
not stand by the argument in the case of sugar. He hoped in
the case of the tariff, they would not only alter some of the
details, but extend the principle. All he asked was that they
should act on the principles they had themselves acknowledged
to be just. This was not the moment to impose an Income-
tax, for all classes were divided as to its principle, and were
ready to propose some especial grounds of exemption or
modification, while there was not that great sense of
peril or necessity which would lead men to pay it without
evasion, from a sense of patriotism. He was convinced other
means of raising the revenue might be found, and his own
propositions having been decided against, he could take no
other course than to more that the Bill be read that day
six months.
Sir R. PEEL said, the Noble Lord had felt it incumbent on
him to take the rather unusual course of resisting the first
reading of the Bill, which he had brought in in conformity with
the decision of that. House. The chief argument of the Noble
Lord had been a personal appeal, an argumextum ad
liorninem address, to himself, founded on a speech he
had made in the year 1833, in which the Noble Lord said he
had found his own arguments more strongly expressed.
• He was glad the Noble Lori had found that consolation. But
ho would address himself to the argumeat which the Noble
Lord had thus derived from him against the imposition of an
Income-tax at the present period. It was, of course, always
important, when appeals were made to the opinion
of any one in support of a proposition, to take into account
the circumstances under which the opinion was delivered. He
had stated, in the year 1833, his objections to the imposition
of an Income-tax; but, he would ask, what was then the
financial position of the country ? There was then a net
surplus, according to the statement of the Chancellor of
the Exchequer, of 1,500,0001.--(Cries of " Hear, hear.")
That was the estimated excess of revenue over expenditure.
Lord Althorp then proposed a considerable reduction of taxes,
which would lead to a loss of 1,000,0001. of revenue. But
Lord Althorp calculated that there would still be a net surplus
of about 516,0001. That was the financial state of the country
when he ( Sir 11. Peel) had been called upon to deliver an
opinion upon the subject. Proposals had been made to reduce
the malt .tax, to reduce the house-tax, to reduce the window- tax,
and it vise proposed to impose a property-tax by way of a com-
mutation for the remission of the house and window-tax. He
(Sir R. Peel) had decidedly objected to the mposition a
property-sax as a commutation ter the realtstax, and the house-
tax, and the window-tam ; and if at the present moment they

had a surplus of half a million, and it were proposed to re-
peal the malt•tax, and the house-tax, and the window•tax,
and to substitute a property .tax for those taxes, he should have
no hesitation in refusing to accede to such a proposition, and
voting as he had before voted, against the imposition of a pro-
perty-tax. The Noble Lord had alluded to what he ( Sir R.
Peel) had said on the subject in 1833. Now what course had he
taken in 1833? Lord Althorp had lost t he malt-tax, and Lord Al-
thorp had then asked him ( Sir R. Peel) what course he ought to
pursue, and he (Sir R. Peel) had assured Lord Althorp that
the Right Hon. Gentleman might rely upon his (S r R.
Peel's) support, if, to maintain public credit, he should deem it
necessary to come down to the House, and propose to rescind
the vote abolishing one half of the malt-tax ; and he might
say that its was mainly in consequence of the assurance he
( Sir H. Peel) bad given, that Lord Althorp bad come down
to the House and proposed the strong measure of rescinding
the vote of the former evening, and on that occa-
sion, laying aside all party considerations, he ( Sir
Robert Peel) had given his support to a Ministry ,
to which he was politically opposed, and again •t
many of those friends with whom he had been in the habit of
act ng, because he was determined to maintain the credit of
the country.—( Cheers.) The Noble Lord had mainly relied
upon what he (Sir R. Peel) had said with regard to the pro-
perty•tax on that occasion. Now what was the resolution
which Lord Althorp himself had proposed on that
occasion, and proposed, too, in a time of peace ?
His (Lord Althorp's) resolution stated that the defi-
ciency which would be occasioned by the reduction of
the tax on malt, on hops, and on windows could only be supplied
by a general tax on property and income, which it was then in-
expedient to propose. He had said if y ou will create
a deficiency in the revenue, there is no alternative but the im-
position of a property-tax, and he had pledged himself,
if the Minister of the day had been defeated on the
malt-tax, the house-tax, and the window-tax, to assist
in the imposition of an Income-tax. The Noble Lord had
imposition
of to his opinion respecting the propriety of the
of a property-tax in Ireland. It had been proposed to him to
impose a property-tax, as a commutation for other taxes.
It bad, on that occasion, been proposed to relieve Eng-
land of the house-tax and window-tax, which would
be giving England some compensating
.advantage. But
what compensation, he had asked, did they propose
to give Ireland in compensation for an Income-tax ?
One of the great objections to the property-tax was that it did
not apply to Ireland, and that in proposing a tax of a temporary
duration, he proposed to exempt Ireland. He proposed to raise
from Ireland, by a tax on spirits, an estimate amount, as
near as he could calculate, equal to the amount from
a property-tax. He then estimated the duty raised by
assimilating the stamp duty in. England, which he
thought amounted to a tax on property. He retained his
opinion, although he thought that, under ordinary circum-
stances, Ireland ought not to be exempt, notwithstanding the
opinion he expressed in 1833. He retained his opinion, that,
upon the whole, he had taken a just and politic course in pro-
posing to raise contributions for the burdens of the
country by an Income-tax.—( hear, hear.) He had not
exempted Ireland, but had raised a contribution in another
way. As it had been stated that he had differed in opinion,
it was but fair to read that opinion which he held on the occa-
sion referred to, and every time he had spoken of an Income-
tax. The Right Hon. Gentleman then read an extract from
one of his speeches in 1833, when he stated that a repeal of
half the malt-tax carried with it a repeal
of the whole tax, and that the only thing
calculated to make up the deficiency was that
which be was opposed to—a property-tax ; and that to
propose that would be a -great calamity. He considered that an
Income-tax was inseparable from a property-tax. This was
the opinion which he held in 1833 ; admitting the inquisito-
rial nature of the tax, and objecting on that ground,
to its being made a commutation for other taxes.
But they had then a clear surplus of 1,500,0001.
Ile asked whether or no the circumstances of the country
were in the same position as they now are ? The
Noble Lord had said that there would be a universal distaste
and dislike to this tax, and therefore the Noble Lord must
admit that nothing but a sense of public duty would induce
any Minister to propose it. If he was to expect
that the country was dissatisfied—if he was to meet with ob-
jections, he would ask the Noble Lord what could induce him
to make such a proposition, but a conviction that he was uphold-
ing and maintaining the public credit ? The Noble Lord said
he could are no financial necessity, and they ought not to
have mentioned the disaster in India, in speaking of
that necessity. He (Sir R. Peel) had been referred to the
opinion of gentlemen who had some knowledge of Indian affairs.
He (Sir R. Peel) thought he could produce to the Noble Lord
and to the House authorities to show that the existing dis-
tressed state of the country had been materially affected by the
state of India. But lie did not refer to them in support of the
Income-tax; but he was told that he could name no public
disaster, and thathe could find no political necessity, or public
emergency, and he therefore had referred to Caubul and
Affghanistan, and he had mentioned them in consequence of
what had been said, that no public disaster had occurred.
But with respect to their own position and the con-
dition of our finances, apart from the Indian con-
siderations altogether, let them consider what was the
state of the deficiency of the last six years. Let them
consider that it would amount to at least ten millioca, and in as
time of peace. After 25 years of general peace this was the
position of this country, that striking the balance of the ex-
penses over income, for the last six years alone, the deficit
was ten millions. This, too, was not a thing of common
occurrence, where the notice of it could he postponed till
next year, but it was a growing and increasing deficiency.
What was the amount of the present year only? it would cer-
tainly not be less than 2,700,0001. But he had the strongest
conviction that when they came to strike the balance of expen-
diture over income on the sth April, 1843, putting the Indian
question out of the question altogether, there would be a deficit
of 3 millions—a net deficit of 3 millions, independent of India.
Weil, then, he thought, under those considerations, that no one
could -abject to the preposition he had made ; and that with re-
spect to the tariff, the reduction he had made would be for
the ultimate benefit of all classes of the community.
Now, he believed that throughout the manufacturing and
trading parts of the community there would be an universe
impression that the measure he proposed would benefit the
country at large. The Noble Lord might say there ought to
be great reductions made in the duty on corn, and the duty
upon sugar, and other articles; but the Noble Lord should
consider that the reductions which he (sir Robert Peel)
proposed in the tariff would be a positive gain to the com-
munity. The Noble Lord would recollect, that in making
those restrictions, he calculated upon a loss of 1,200,00/.
for the present, and that he had a deficit of 3,000,001. to
deal with for the current year, independently altogether of India.
He should find some means of meeting that deficit ; and he be-
lieved, after all he had heard in that House, that he could not
have discovered any meastve so well calculated to meet the
difficulties of the country as the one he had proposed.—( Hear. )
If he had insisted on a leather-tax, or a malt-tax, and a salt-
tax, he knew they would have been productive, for, it had been
truly said, that, if they wanted to raise millions, they must tax
millions. Entertaining, however, a confident hope that the 11
revival of trade, and the additional consumption would enable
them to relieve the country from this tax, he must again say
that he thought there was a much less disturbance of
the industry of the country, and of the application of capital, by
imposing this tax upon the property of the country, than there
would be by reviving the malt, salt, leather, and other taxes.
which, after all, must be paid by those whose condition th •
most wished to improve. Whatever opinions he had expressed
in 1633, he had a firm conviction that he was consulting the
interests and security of property more by imposing this tax upon
income, than by subjecting the great mass of the working
classes of the country to indirect taxation.—( Hear.) Ad-
mitting the evil of it, yet he had the most confident opinion
that the tax was not only just in itself, considering the
manner in which property had accumulated, but that, by call-
ing upon those who made profits in trade—by calling upon the
higher classes, who had set, he must say, an example of their
willingness to come forward and bear their share of the
burden, he was doing that which was most consistent with the
interests of trade, by whom the bulk of property was possessed,
He was confident that, if Parliament would set that example,
there would arise a feeling of satisfaction among the great
consuming classes of the country which would amply compen-
sate them for the sacrifice they would make.—( Hear, hear.)
Notwithstanding the expressions the Noble Lord had quoted--
notwithstanding the decided opinion which he still retained—.
that if they had a surplus of 1,500,0001., to attempt to impose
an Income-tax, in lieu of a window-tax or a house-tax, would
be most unjust and most unwise, on account of the inquisitorial
nature of the tax. Concealing none of these objections, yet
the result of the inquiries he had made, and of the commu-
nications lie had received from various parts of the country
was to confirm him in the impression which he entertained
when he proposed the tax, that in a chain of difficulties the
proposal which he had made was the best which he could have
devised.—( Hear, hear.) They were now discussing the qut s-
tion at an unusual stave ; and he would conine himself
to answering the Noble Lord upon the subject im-
mediately before the House.—( Hear, hear.) It would
be inconvenient that he should then enter into any
discussion upon the tariff ; but he thought he should, when
the proper time arrived, be able to show that the contem-
plated reductions in the tariff might be made consistently with
the interests of the producers as well as the consumers. He
would take that opportunity of mentioning two modifications he
had made in the measure, fur the purpose of removing the objec-
tions which had been made in the course of the discussion.
One had reference to the tenants in Scotland. It had been
stated, and stated very truly, that the. position of the tenant
in Scotland was different from the position of the tenant
in England—that the tenant in Scotland was subject to no
payment on account of tithes—that the tenant in Scotland was
subject to none of those payments which usually fell in England
upon the occupying tenant, but which in Scotland were borne by
the land. In point of fact, by theAet of 1806, a difference was made
apparently, but not really in favour of the Scotch tenant. He
had endeavoured to place the occupying tenant in Scotland
nearly on the same footing as the occupying tenant in England.
In the case of the English tenant, who occupied land tithe-free,
he would be entitled to a deduction of one-eighth from the
amount of his assessment, and it was clear that to that deduction
the Scotch tenant was also entitled. In the case of the Eng-
lish tenant, who had that charge paid by the landlord, he was
also entitled to the deduction ; substantial justice required that
the Scotch tenant should have a deduction of one-third on this
rent instead of one-half. The great objection made to this tax was
its inquisitorial nature. It had been said with great force, that
to subject any of the classes under Schedule D to that instuisi-
tion to which they were subjected by the Bill of 1806, would he
unfair. He did not allude to the difference of tenure : in the
case of funded property there was no difficulty, as
any one with any curiosity in the affairs of others
might easily ascertain the amount of another
man's funded property. The same was the case with regard
to land. The arrangement he proposed to make with regard
to property in Schedule D was this ; —He proposed
to leave the Act of 1806 as he found it—
namely, to permit those who preferred going before
Local Commissioners, appointed in their own neighbourhood by
parties independent of the Government, to retain the power of
doing so. But if any person objected to go before these local
authorities, if any one said that the Commissioner appointed
might be a competitor in trade, before whom a disclosure of his
income might be accompanied with prejudice to his
affairs, or with vexation to his. feelings, he proposed
to give those parties the option of sending in their return of in-
come to a sworn officer of the Government, an Inspector of the
Survey ; if they wished to appeal from the local authorities, he
proposed to give parties the power of snaking it to that officer.
He found the surcharges had been rarely made. He had
attempted to prevent fraud and evasion, because to permit the
existence of fraud would be unjust to the honest man. He had
endeavoured to reconcile the execution of justice to all parties
and the means of preventing evasion and fraud, with a remedy
for those special evils which were likely to arise from the in-
quisitorial nature of the impost.—( Hear.) On looking
at the Bill, he trusted that some portion at
least (of the objections that had been urged against it
would be found to have been alleviated. He believed, notwith-
standing the predictions of that Noble Lord as to the disgust which
this tax must create, and as to the unpopularity, which must ulti-
mately be the lot of those who proposed it, he believed that he saw
indications, throughout ‘he country generally, of the existence
of a strong feeling of the necessity of maintaining public
credit, and of adopting vigorous measures in order to get rid
of the financial difficulties. He spoke of what he had observed
as to the feeling of the property of the country, and
of that portion of the property which was embarked
in trade and manufactures; and he felt assured that
there was a strong prevailing opinion on the
whole, that if it was necessary to raise., 4,200,0001. to
sustainpublic credit—it was more consistent with justice
atiise the
sound policy to impose the buriltn on she property of the
I community than, by indirect taxation, to restrict the com-

fort of the great mass of the people.—(Loud cheering.) -
He would not then go further into the discussion of the sub
j' ct. Ile knew cot if the Noble Lord would feel it to be his
duty to take the sense of the House again before
the Bill went into Committee—he meant on the
second reading, but he would fix as early a day
as possible for the second reading, and it it should be the cpi-
nion of the HOLM, that, on account of the peculiar circum-
stances of the case, considering the season of the year, and the
immense importance to the trade and manufactures of the country
that the opinion of Parliament should be asked as speedily as
possible respecting our future commercial regulations—if on
that account it should be the opinion of the House
that it would be advisable to make some temporary
relaxation of those rules of the I louse—( Hear )-
11 hich confined their discussions on these subjects to two
days in the week--he would not propose it, unless he felt that
such was the general sense of the House of Commons; but if
he should feel assured that such was the general desire
of the House he would propose a temporary relaxation of those
ru'ea so as to enable them to devote more than two days in the
week to the consideration of the Income-tax and Tariff.—( Hear.)
Mr. VILLIERS said he attached more importance to the
speech which the flight Hon. Baronet had just made, than to
almost any one which he had yet delivered, because he had
given them a greater insight into his future views, and
intentions than they had been able yet to gather. The
Bight Honourable Baronet's speech had been so in-
geniously worded that People had been at a loss
to discover what might really be his ultimate intention, ;
and many persons, objecting to the details of his scheme, had
yet been inclined to oppose him, because they considered
the present as the commencement of a new system of
taxation which would relay(' the masses of the country
from the pressure of the unjust system of indirect taxation
which at present prevailed. The Right Hon. Baronet's
speech of that evening had dissipated all such delusions ;
for the Right Hon. Baronet had said that, if it
should be again proposed to substitute a property-tax, for the
indirect taxes which pressed upon the masses of the
people, no man would be more firm, in resisting
such a change of system than himself (Sir Robert Peel).
The Right Hon. Baronet distinctly admitted that all he pro-
posed to do by this oppressive Income-tax was to maintain
public credit. They got into a financial dif-
ficulty, and they ought to consider the causes
of it. This tax was merely a means of evading one of those
courses. The House had been told frequently that the time was
approaching when they would have to consider the effect pro-
duced by levying taxes on the people, not only for the
support of the State, but for the benefit of particular classes, and
that they would have to do sae of two things, either to tax pro-
perty to maintain public credit, and to diminish those monopolies
which impoverished the people, and prevented them from con-
tributing to the taxes. It was owing to these monopolies that
and trade was restricted, and
that struggle which had long been
aenhanced,
thethey pricewere (
predicted between the maintenance of monopoly, and the
maintenance of public credit --(Loud cheering)
about liuvtii'g to commence".
s
whether they should maintain public credit by
imposing fresh taxes, or by abolishing monopoly ;
and those who last year held that opinion had been sneered at
and taunted by Hon. Gentlemen opposite, who this year, how-
ever, admitted its correctness by their frequent allusions to the
connexion between the cost of living and the value of income.
Such were the principles which were then put forih. Had
they been seriously entertained, he believed they would not
have seen such a "Corn Bill as had been introduced by the
Right Hon. Baronet opposite; they would not have had an
Income-tax, nor so small au instalment of what was due
to the country as the tariff of the Right Honourable Baronet
( Hear, hear.) He wanted to have some clear definition of
the cause and character of the deficiency under which the
country was labouring. He had been told by his constituents
that they had no objection to a tax upon property when
the necessities of the country required that it
should be imposed. They objected to the reckless
manner in which the tax was to be imposed, no distinction
being made between different kinds of income ; to the
principle of a direct tax they did not object..—(Hear. )
But what was the cause of the deficiency ? It
was not sufficient to say that it had Occurred under the late
Government ; the argument was that the deficiency
had occurred under the late Government, and that
those who had appointed that Government should be pre-
pared to supply it; but that was not the view which
was taken by the great body of the people.—( Hear, hear. )
They contens.ed that the Government had for many years past
been in the hands of a small class ; that the Government had
resided. in a minority ; but it was class legislation which had
caused the deficiency, and that the Income-tax was proposed to
evade one of the exigencies of that legislation. They, deceived
themselves very much if they supposed that the working
classes, who were intended to be conciliated by the exemption
in their favour, were not alive to the real operation of a tax
upon income.—(Hear, hear.) The working classes were not
so ignorant as not to know that whatever injured those who
employed them, must operate injuriously to their own interests;
and it was now the general opinion of those classes that this
tax, which was not imposed in substitution for any of which
they complained, but in aggravation of all others, would add to
the burdens under which they were already suffering.—( Hear,
hear.) It had been proved that within the last few years, the
landed interest hail been exempted from taxes to the
amount of one million, and from the improvement which
had taken place in landed property, there could be
little doubt that if those taxes were revived a still greater
amount would accrue to the revenue. No attempt, however,
had been made to revive those taxes.—( Hear, hear.) There
had been an attempt to prove that freehold property was in
various ways taxed to an equal amount with personal property ;
but it was an indisputable fact that the descent of freehold pro-
perty was taxed to a much less extent than the descent of per-
sonal property. The Right Hon. Baronet said he was not
aware of any other means than an Income-tax, of supplying
the vast deficiency which existed. But the Right Hon. Baronet
had made the admission the other night, that by reducing the
differential duties, you might improve the revenue.—( Hear,
hear.) What was a differential duty ? It was a duty intended
to exclude the cheaper article in favour of the dearer. —( Hear,
hear.) That was the simple definition of a differential duty;
and the Right Hon. Baronet hail admitted that by reducing
the duty on sugar they would immediately increase the revenue.
The question, then, was, should they reduce the duty upon
sugar and of her articles, or impose a tax upon income ? The
argument derived from the existence of slavery in the Braz.ls
had been used very tenderly' is that, debate, and he believed there
were now but few who thought the admission of Brazilian sugar
would give encouragement, to slavery in that country. If they
succeeded with regard to Brazil, could they act on it without
the consent. of Cuba? It was only its the case of Brazil where
there was any question about the continuance of slavery. 'I here
were some w tin doubted both the security and the economy of that
institution ; but in Cuba there wasno idea of abandoning it, as they
profited too much by its continuance. Would not the admission
of sugar grown by tree labour front the East Indies, the Phil-
lipine Islands, and other places, where it would be grown as
cheaply as by slave labour, be a stronger inducement to aban-
don the system of slavery ? The same principle would apply to
coffee, and from these sources a large revenue might be ob-
tained ; but it will be said then that there were no other means
of escaping the lax. lie did not wish to underrate the im-
portance of the changes proposed by the Right Hon. Baronet ;
but with regard to the change in the duty on timber, he did
not think that reduction would be followed by so large a reduc-
tion of the revenue as had been anticipated. There was a
great objection to bra rowing money for the purpose of supply-
ing a deficiency, but it was precisely in case, when they ex-
pected to repair their revenue, he thought they were justified
in borrowing. When making a great commercial experiment.
by which they might fairly expect to raise their revenue, they
might resort to a loan to supply a deficiency.
He could net see
anything in the present state of thing thatjustified them in impes-
ing an Income-tax. The Right Hors. Baronet had expressly
stated that he had revised many duties that had hitherto
yielded no revenue, but which would never be productive. He
complained of the whole scheme of the Government, because
it was not calculated to meet the exigencies of the country.
The people had asked for more food, more trade, and fewer
taxes ; and they proposed a Corn Bill, which the Government
itself could not, believe would give them more food. They
asked for more trade, and ne part of the Government scheme
could contribute to extend trade with the two best markets of
this country, namely, the United States and the Brazils. '1 here
had, of late years, been a deficiency in the revenue, because
the consuming powers of the people had been diminished; but
the proposed Income-tax would further curtail those consuming
powers. He could not, therefore, expect that the measures
of the Government would confer upon the country any
real relief.—( Hear, hear.) It should be remembered
that there was an immediate connexion between
the price of food and the state of the revenue. Whenever the
price of food was low the revenue had flourished. Could
there be anything then more inconsistent, than that the Go-
vernment, when bringing for ward remedial measures, should not
strike at the root of the revenue, by improving the means of
the people, and diminishing their wants? The revenue had
flourished in the years 1833; 1834, 1815, and 1836, when the
price of food was low ; and the deficiency in the revenue hail
increased since the price of feed had become high.—( Hear. )
1 he Right Hon. Gentleman, after entering into various details,
showing the increase in the revenue, and in the various articles
of consumption, upon which a duty was paid during the years
of abundance, and the proportionate decrease in the duty upon
similar articles during years of scarcity, proceeded to say that
it was manifest that the revenue suffered from the high prices,
and the distressed condition of the people. Why, then, had
not the Government, when they saw the real cause of the
deficiency, applied to it its proper remedy? Why had they not
introduced measures which would diminish the price of the
staple articles of consumption ? The Government was now
about to introduce an Income-tax ; but the country had no pros-
pect that they would not constantly be subjected to the burden,
in order to enable the Government to meet a constant defi-
ciency in the revenue. They did not deal fully or fairly with
the evils of the country. They had virtually admitted that
monopolies had caused the deficiency in the revenue by ex-
hausting the means of the people, but they had not boldly
abolished those monopolies. He believed that if they had come
forward and proposed a truly liberal system of commercial
policy, and imposed at the same time a per centage upon pro-
perty, if it should have been found neccessary, there was not an
intelligent man in the country who would not have given them
his support. He did not think, on the other hand,
that the country would support an Income-tax for the
support of monopoly ; and he was of opinion that the
measures of the Government would not be beneficial to
the country, sinless they were carried much further.
Mr. HARDY wished to say a very few words on this sub-
ject. He would have done so en another occasion, but that he
never could catch the Speaker's eye--(Laughter.) Be hoped
they Were coming to a decision on this question, after the
speeches of the Noble Lord and the Right Hon. Baronet.
Many Hon. Gentlemen opposite had at first received with ap-
probation the proposition of the Right Hon. Baronet, more
especially the Hon. Member for Ipswich, and the Hon. Mem-
ber who was smiling opposite (Mr. Wakley). He (Mr.
Hardy) thought that if this tax was so unjust, so partial, so '
dishonest, and so oppressive, those Hon. Members would have
discovered it--( Hear, hear)—and have resisted the measure
with indignation. But when the secret meeting took place at
the Reform Club, then it was that Gentlemen opposite rose
one after another for the purpose of condemning this tax as
unjust and inquisitorial. It had been said that this tax was
une,i nal, but was not a property tax unequal ? Was it not un-
equal for a rich landed proprietor to pay the same as a man with
a large family and a small estate? In nineteen eases out of
twenty, by making a fair return, a man would escape all the
inquisitorial objections to the tax. In the case of the 11,000
surcharges, made in the city of London under the old tax, only
4,000 of them appealed. The objection of being inquisitorial
applied to other things.—( Hear, hear.) At Doctors' Com-
mons and the Registry-office, the property of almost
every family in the kingdom might be ascertained ; as
to its immorality and to its encouragement to fraud and per-
jury, it belonged to the Income-tax no more than to other Acts
of Parliament; or to any proceedings between man and man,
in which it was their interest to misrepresent facts to suit their
own case. As to the inequality and injustice, it was impossible
to avoid it. In the war the country paid ten per cent. to the
Income-tax, and it was now proposed only to impose a tax of
three per cent., so that there was a great difference made be-
tween war and peace. Besides, if war was required to justify
the imposition of the tax, they' had the wars in China and
Afghanistan, which were wars of considerable magnitude,
however the Hon. Member for Liskeard
might sneer at them.
The Hight Hon. Baronet had been taunted with imposing this
tax to please the landed interest. It was a pretty way to
please the landed interest, to impose a heavy tax upon them,
from which they could not escape. The tax was a popular
one. He himself had presented an address from Rochdale,
urging the Right Hon. Baronet to persevere, and he trusted
that he would persevere in maintaining the honour and credit
of the:country.

Mr. E. RICE said after the vote which the House had come I
to, it would be rather his duty to endeavour to remedy what. •
he might consider the defects in the details of the Right lion.
Baronet's plan, than to throw any further obstructions in the
way of the measure. He preferred the measures of the late
Government to the Income-tax ; but, after the rejection of
those measures, he felt they hail no alternative but to accept
the proposition of the Right lion. Baronet, with a view to
modify its details. If he should not be enabled in Committee
to obtain seine modification of what he considered the great
injustice of taxing professional incomes at the same rate as
permanent incomes—if he should not succeed in that, he
should feel it his duty to vote against the third reading of
the Bill. One reason why he would not oppose the first
reading of the Bill wae, that he thought nothing would con-
tribute more to the maintenance of peace thanshowing that we
had ample resources to go to war. For these reasons he would
not oppose the introduction of the Bill.
Mr. FOX MAULE thought his Hon. Friend, who had last
spoke, must have misundersood what had fallen from the Right.
lion. Baronet, on the subject of the modifications of his
plan, without the introduction of which his Hon. Friend had
stated he should feel it to be his duty to vote against
the third reading of the Bill. The Hight Honourable
Baronet had distinctly stated that he would consent
to the introduction of no such modification as that which had
been proposed by his Hon. Friend, and he would therefore urge
his Ilan. Friend net to wait for the third reading of the Bill,
but to vote against it at. once. lie was anxious, before giving
his vote on the present occasion to state to the House his rea •
sons for so doing, because he had been much misrepresented on
the subject of the Income-tax. It had been stated to that
Eloitee, that in voting with the Ministers for the postponement
of the decision upon the Right Hon. Baronet's resolutions until
after Easter, he had followed a course founded solely and simply
on factious opposition. He would appeal to the Eight lion.
Gentleman whether he had not stated distinctly, when the reso-
lutions were brought before the House, he considered sufficient
time had not hien given to the people of this country to consi-
der their nature gild operation. He stated distinctly, that in
voting with the minority his object was to gain time for the
people of Scotland to consider those resolutions, and when taxed
by the Hon. Member for Lincolnshire with voting for delay, he
did so agreeably with the opinions and wishes of his constitu-
ents.—(lfear, hear. ) Now the Right Hon. Baronet, the Secre-
tary for the Home Department, had stated that he (Mr. Fox
Maule) having sounded his constituents as to the propriety of
holding a meeting to discuss these resolutions, he had been in-
formed that if a meeting were held those resolutions would re-
ceive its approval. It appeared that the only source from which
the Right Honourable Baronet had derived his information was
an anonymous letter, so greatly had he been at a loss for matter
for his speech. He (Mr. F. Simile) begged now to state dis-
tinctly that all he hail lenrned from his constituents was, that
his constituents did not disapprove of his voting with the
minority before Easter ; and the Right Hon. Baronet having
asked him what they thought of the proposed measure, he
begged in state explicitly that those merchants and shopkeepers,
whose incomes would be affecied, entirely disapproved of it.—
( Hear. hear.) They complained of the tax both on account
of its injustice and its inquisitorial character. Not one of those
with whom he had conversed had one word to say in favour
of the Income-tax. He was quite ready to admit to the Right
Hon. Baronet, that in the town of Perth there were persons
whom the Right Honourable Baronet had captivated by
his measures, and upon whose approbation he was trusting
t.o a very considerable extent. But he (Mr. F. Maule)
would tell him that the day may come when he
would find that the class in whom he had trusted for support of
those measures, may have their eyes opened. He would tell the
Right Hon. Baronet that the day had been when the agricul-
tural interest had confided in him for the entire protection of
their interest', and who were so confident in the protection of t
the Hight Hon. Baronet at this moment. lie would not use the
hatsh word which had been objected to in the course of the de-
bate, but he would say that the Right Hon. Baronet had dis-
appointed the expectations of the agriculturists, and he would
say that the country had, from one end to the other, expressed
disappointment at the manner in which they had been treated,
and the measures which had been brought forward. He would
warn the Right Hon. Baronet that, although he may receive
much inconvenience from the result of that discovery
on the part of the agriculturists, it was nothing to the inconve-
nience which he and the country would receive when the
great mass of the people discovered the effect of the opposition
to the Income-tax, coupled with the assertion that they would
not be affected by it—when they should discover that such was
the case, the reaction which would ensue would be dangerous,
not simply to the Right Hen. Baronet's Government, for that,
perhals, would not concern him (Mr. F. Maule) so much.—
( Laughter.) But he would tell him, it would be dangerous to the
peace of the country. It was impossible to inflict an Income-
tax without in a very great degree affecting the working
classes. It had already been acknowledged by the lion. Mem-
ber fur Knaresborough, that many manufacturers were lessen-
ing their amount of labour, in anticipation of the income-tax.
He would ask why they invited that great body of the people to
consider the Income-tax, they who opposed useful measures,
such as the Corn-law and the Sugar Duties ?—( Hear, hear.)
Why that they may get a blow struck at the middle classes,
who, they imagine, stand between them and obtaining univer-
sal suffrage. When they have effected that which the Govern-
ment, by the imposition of the Income-tax, was assisting them
to do, they would find a class combined, the union of which
would entirely depend on the measure passing. He thanked
his Noble Friend for giving lion the opportunity of giving his
vote against this tax. His Noble Friend had been accused of
taking an unusual course, but the occasion also was unusual.
They were saddling the country with a tax, of which some
opinions had been read of the recorded debates of that House,
and to which he should again take the liberty of referring. In
the words of the Right Hon. Gentleman, it is a tax which, " if
properly collected, would expose every man's besiness to a ri-
gorous inquisition ; it is a tax which would encourage immo-
rality, fraud, and perjury.—( Hear, hear, hear.) It
would discourage industry, which, in a country like this,
no tax ought to do." Such were the words of the Right lion.
Baronet, and such was his simple opinion of the tax, which
he should oppose whenever he had the opportunity of so doing.
The Right Hon. Baronet had said that his plan was supported
by the commercial community—he had heard, indeed, that it
had met with the support of the Chamber of Commerce
of Glasgow, and he had heard it with some surprise,
because the same body had placed on their records a resolu-
tion preferring the fixed duty on corn, of his Noble Friend, to
the sliding scale. But this Chamber of Commerce, it ap-
peared, was solely goverved by six Directors, and in point of
tact it was the approval of these six only which the lion. Ba-
ronet hail received. These Directors, too, would be found
to be men interested in the continuance of the West India mu-
nopcly, and the maintenance of the sugar duties, t.o the
extent at which they at present existed. On the other side,
the Chamber of Edinburgh had declared against it. Ile
should cheerfully give his vote against the measure.
Mr. MONCKTON MILNES imagined that the Right
Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down was the only Member
of the House who was not convinced by the Right Honourable
Baronet's defence of his consistency against the charge of the
Noble Lord. Tee measure was riot so much the measure of
the Right Hon. Baronet as the Measure of the necessity of the
times. lie was sorry to see so much party spirit exhibited on
the other side in discussing this quest on. He did not approve
of the practice of alluding to former debates, and of raking
up old speeches—(Opposition cheers)—and it was a practice
which lie hoped every young member would endeavour to put
a stop to.—( A laugh.) He thought that, except in case of
necessity, such a tax as the present ought not to be imposed ;
but he thought, although the necessity existed in the present
instance, it was merely a financial necessity. There had not
been one word fallen from the Right Hon. Baronet which could
raise a feeling of despondency in the minis of any one. The
budget of the late Government had been rejected by so large a
majority that it wouid be impossible to carry it. They had '
lett many good intentions as a legacy to their successors, but
they had left them no money, and hence the deficiency, hence
the neces By for imposing an Income-tax, to make good that
deficiency. Surely the army beyond the Indus was a British
army, and the navy in the China Seas was a British navy,
anti entitled to the support of the House ? He lipped the
question of Affghanistan would not be discussed in the House
of Commons, because he believed if the late Government, in
their own defence, "hould be compelled to lay before the House
all the reasons which had influenced them to undertake the
war in Affghanistan, he feared that the disclosures which they
might he compelled in self-defence to make might seriously
complicate our relations with some of the Powers with which
we were now allied. What were our relations with France
and with America? He for one could not but regret
the treaty of the 15th of July, 1840, the consequences of
which he believed were more serious than was commonly
supposed. The suspicions and jealousies of the people of
France towards the people of this country were the deplorable
fruits of that treaty. There was one part of this measure
which he earnestly desired to see modified. The Right
lion. Baronet had given an exemption to the working classes
of this country. He thought there should be some consi-
deration for the labour of the head, as well as the labour of
the hand, and that incomes derived from trades and profes-
sions should net be subjected to the same tax as landed pro-
perty.—( Hear, hear.) Some reduction from the three per
cent., in favour of incomes subject to risk, and derived from
intense labour, would be hailed by the country with the greatest
satisfaction. In conclusion, he must say, that he anticipated
a period when the deficiency would be removed, and the couns
try relieved entirely from this now necessary burden.
Mr. RAIKES CURRIE said, ho considered the measure
proposed by the Government as at once bold, honest, and
comprehensive—required by the exigencies of the times, and,
as far as he could see, not more objectionable than any sub-
stitute which could be proposed. It was hold on account of
its inquisitorial character, and because it was likely to excite
the opposition of the middle classes; but, as he believed it to
be honest—honest, because in this measure they proceeded to
tax themselves, and not the working classes, he was pre-
pared to bear any odium which might arise from its in-
quisitorial character.—( Cheers from the Ministerial benches.)
It was a comprehensive measure, because in the tariff there was
an attempt to invigorate and expand trade, the source of all
revenue—therefore he thought it was a comprehensive mea-
sure. It had been attempted by miserable expedients to ward
off the evil day with respect to the finances of the country.—
( Loud cheers.) He must say that this had been the case for
years past. Ile felt grave apprehensions with respect to the
termination of the oriental war. Looking to the state of
Europe he thought that a fell Exchequer and a well-manned
fleet was the best guarantee for peace. It had been proposed
to tax heritable property, but they must consider what was the
object of the tax, and they must consider their present emer-
gency. When lion. Members asked him if he could look with
his free trade principles at the money resourses in the country,
and then vote for the Income-tax, he answered that
the Whigs had prevented them, by their course of
legislation, the means of obtaining these beneficial enact-
ments.--( Cries of „Hear, hear.") They ought to have
'.ad a different system of representation, but the Noble Lord,
the Member for London, had said that he would hear of no alte-
ratiou in the Reform Bill ; he declared it to be a final measure.
A friend of the Noble Lord's had said that he would in five mi-
mites take the command of the Channel Fleet, or build St. Pe-
ter's.--(Loud laughter.) But the Noble Lord had undertaken a
much greater task, for he attempted to erect the temple of free
trade on the tomb-stone of monopoly. He (Mr. Currie)
wished to live and die under the existing institutions, but he
wished to see justice done to the people. A great class had
sprung up, in consequence of the Noble Lord shutting the door
of the constitutions of the mass of the people, and hence had
sprung up the agitation for universal suffrage. The Right
Honourable Gentleman opposite had been most unjustly ac•
cased. That Right Hon. Gentleman had declared that he would
never bring for ward other men's measures. He ( Mr. C.) hoped to
see in that a better system. He (Mr. C.) felt that they must
unfetter trade. The day was over for monopoly he hoped, and
if free trade were not adopted, it would be taken arid supported
by the wreck of all our institutions. To use the words of the
Right Hon. Gentleman, he could not be the dupe of the so-
phistries of his followers ; he could not be cheated by the bug-
bear of men of dependency lie must think that dependency
was the hand-maid ol'commerce, and the preservative of pollee.
The Right Hon. Baronet was an able Minister, and a states-
man experienced in debate, perhaps unrivalled—a man whose
name would live when they were forgotten—when his (Mr.
Currie's), and many lion. Gentlemen around, would be buried
in oblivion. Would he, then not use his master-spirit, and rise,
like a god, to do justice to the country ? Would he not look
down, from that dizzy height on which he was placed, and,
like the men of old, confer blessings on a suffering nation.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE said that if one half of the compli-
ments he had just heard paid to the Right Hon. Baronet oppo-
site were true, every one in that House, and every one out of it,
who read those compliments, must be perfectly satisfied that
the nation was, at the present moment, the most favoured
nation of the earth—(Laughter and cheers)—and that we had
arrived at the political millenium; and they ought to be pleased
to hear that the affairs of the country were to be regulated

by the Right Hon. Baronet—that our forces were paid by the
Right Hon. Menber for Kent—when they saw that the magis-
t ates of England were appointed by the Right Hon. Baronet,
the Home Secretary, the Member for the great and independent
constituency of Dorchester.—( Cheers.) These were events ,
that, according to the Hon. Gentleman whohad just sat down,
ought to be worshipped. Sorry should he (Mr. Duncombe)
bo to prevent the Hon. Member who heel just spoken living
and dying under any institution he thought proper. lie said he
hoped he should live and die under the existing institutions.
lie ( Mr. Duncombe) hoped he might, but he hoped he
might live long, and that the day of his death might be long
' removed, but he trusted it would not take place un-
der that Goverment that now oppressed the country.—( Loud
laughter.) With regard to the eulogy the Honourable
Gentleman had paid her Majesty's Government, he (Mr.
Currie) admitted that the measures were comprehensive, bold,
and honest. He (51r. Duncombe) admitted they were corn
prehensive, for he believed they were measures that would
bring down universal distress and every sort of havoc on the
century.—(Cheers and laughter.) NI hen the Hon. Gentle
man said it, was an honest measure, he (Mr. Duncombe) differed
with him. He denied that it was a bold measure.
—he denied that it was an honest measure. The
Hon. Member for Pomfret said nothing but a strong Govern-
ment could have proposed such a measure, so Obnoxioue,
so disgusting—(Cheers and laughter)—to the people
of this country. But how were they strung? why,
in numbers. Were they strong in public confidence.—( Cheers,
and counter cheers.) lie denied it. He denied that the measures
were. The Right Honourable Baronet was supported
by Gentlemen who would support e very injustice to keep the
Right Eon. Baronet in office The Hun. Member for Porn-
feet said he should like to see a dissolution —so should lie (Mr.
Duncombe). lie would like to see that; but the Right Hon.
Baronet was too good a judge. That juggle which has been
going on ihreuah the debates, did not prove that the working
classes wouldbe benefited by the measures of the Government.
The Right Hon. Baronet seemed to say, that while he took
money from one pocket of the people, he crammed into the
other beef, mutton, and other provisions.—(Laughter. ) But
up rose some greesy farmer, and when he complained of the
injury to be inflicted on his interest, the Right Hon. Baronet
told him that he was mistaken, and that neither foreign meats,
nor any other articles of foreign produce would find their nay
under his new legislation into this country. The measures of
the Government would not really benefit the working classes.
Let them look to the case of the boat and shoe-makers, or the
case of the cork-cutters. There could be no doubt that
the contemplated changes would prove most detrimental
to the interests of these classes ; but while they were de-
prived of their protection, the protection to the landowner was
continued almost in its former state. He believed that the
cork-cutters, in particular, would most severely suffer from the
operation of the new tariff ; and yet that was a class which de-
served every consideration from the House. It was their
boast that not one of their body was supported at the expense
of the parish. Again, he believed, that the change in the duty
upon foreign boots and shoes would throw 30,000 individuals
engaged in that trade in this country into the workhouse. The
straw-bonnet makers would equally be sufferers; and he de-
fied the Right Hon. Baronet to show that his contemplated
alterations would benefit the working classes generally. Yet
the Income-tax was the price at which those changes were
to be purchased. He did not think that tax would
be long borne by the country.—(Hear.) The measure
was not an honest—the measure was not a bold measure. He
would ask why they did not extend it to Ireland ? Ireland had
been benefited as much as England by one of the great sources
of the deficiency in the revenue—he meant the reduction in the
Post-office. If the measure were good for England it would
be good for Ireland ; and it should be extended to both coun-
tries. The Income-tax had formerly operated most oppres-
sively. It was well-known that there had been 11,000 sur-
charges at the time in the city of London alone, and out of
these alleged surcharges 3,000 wore reversed, 1,000 were con-
firmed; and the 7,000 remaining traders in the City thought
it advisable to submit quietly to the injustice which they com-
plained of. 'I hat was a striking proof of the iniquitous
way in which the tax had operated, and in which he
believed it would still operate. He admitted that there
was an apathy in the country as to what was done in
that House upon the subject; but the reason of that was that
the people were indifferent to what passed in Parliament, be-
cause they knew that that House did not represent their in-
terests. He (Mr. Duncombe) bad, however, met no man
outside the walls of that House favourable to the measure. The
proposed tax would tend to limit and restrict the franchise in
boroughs. It would render the restration more difficult. It
would enable the Government to control the honourable elector,
and he (Mr. Duncombe) took it for granted that the new tax-
collectors would act perfectly in coneert with the 364 new Ma-
gistrates appointed by the Government. The tax might no
passed in that House ; but he felt persuaded the country would
soon be tired of the measure, and he was happy to say that to
the last he had opposed it.
Mr. ROEBUCK, who spoke in a very indistinct tone, was
understood to commence by complaining of the manner in
which lion. Members, who differed from their patty upon any
great question of policy, were stigmatised in that House. There
were certain leaders whom it seemed to be thought humble in-
dividuals like himself should follow upon all occasions ; and
when they differed from those bright lights it was necessary
they should state why they had followed their own small candle.
He wished to address the House on that occasion, because he
found that what had fallen from him on the subject under dis-
cussion hail been subjected to much criticism. lie was glad
he had at least one defender that night on the same side of the
House, who had spoken of the proposal of the Government as
a straightforward, a bold, and a comprehensive measure.
He would thus have the eloquent defence of his Hon. Ft ieml
the Member for Northampton (Mr. R. Currie) to fall hack
upon, if he should himself be wholly unable to say anything in
his own defence.—( Hear, hear.) lie proposed to take a view
of the measures proposed on both sides of the House ; and if it
appeared that the remedy proposed by the Right Hen. Baronet
was the most complete, he would have justified the course lie
should take. First, let him consider the points in which the
Noble Lord and the Right Hon. Baronet agreed. It was ac-
knowledged by the Noble Lord that there was a great defi-
ciency—the amount of that deficiency had been allowed by all.
The Noble Lori had also showed that that deficiency ought to
be made up, and tha the current expenses of the year should
be provided for. So far the Noble Lord and the Right lion.
Baronet were agreed. Both agreed in stating, however, that
the deficiency must be met by payment, and there he
&tiered from them. Ile contended that it was a reduc-
tion of the expenditttre, and not by the imposition
of new taxes that the difficulty was to be met. The constitu-
encies had no right to complain of that proposition ; having
elected the Right lion. Baronet the burden imposed fell justly
upon them. It was the unrepresented classes who had alone a
right to complain of any measure which the Government
might propose. The unrepresented had just cause for indigne-
hen. Vliat, then, were the means proposed to meet the de-
ficit? Before he came to that point, he begged to deprecate
a practice which prevailed, of quoting Hansard to show ee
which side the fault lay; each party trying to prove that the
other had caused the mischief, and each \CIS now engaged hi
recriminating the opposite party.—( Hear, hear.) Well, the
evil being admitted, how was it to be met? The Right lion.
Baronet said he must raise two or three millions each year to
cover the expenses of the year, and ho said he could not do that
by means of the tariff.—( Hear.) He (Mr. Roebuck) had
observed that the Noble Lord on that side of the House had
never asserted that the deficiency would be supplied by the
ineans which he proposed. The Noble Lord approved of the
amendments proposed in the tariff by the Right Hon, Baronet.
Besides this, he proposed a fixed duty upon coin, not so much
to raise revenue as to regulate the duty. Both the Right Hon.
11 ironet and the Noble Lord opposite agreed in the necessity of
affording protection to corn; there he was at issue with both.
As regards protection to the landed interest, and as regards the
tariff, both, then, were agreed. Before he dismissed that part
of the topic he could not help noticing the fact that the Noble
Lord, whilst he had proposed a reduction of the duty on sugar,
had never proposed to admit foreign provisions. He rejoiced
that they had a Minister bold enough to make such a proposal,
and poser enough, spite of the opposition behind
him, to carry it into effect.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.")
Now, the Right Hon. Baronet proposed, by a direct tax, to
supply the deficiency, which the Noble Lord had not intended
to supply. It had been said that they might gain some money
front lowering the different articles, but it had never been shown
that the whole amount would be raised. A great deal had been
said about defalcation. Now, he thought that the only ques-
tion which the Legislature ought to ask itself, in considering
that question, was this, Whether the people could annually re-
produce as much as was taken from them ? There could be no
legerdemain used to produce this effect; but, supposing any
fiscal instrument could be devised for the attainment of that
end, would the Noble Lord vote for it ? He answered, no !
He who was for protection for agriculture, who must have an
M. duty, was not the man for a thorough reformation of the
fiscal regulation' of the country, that would give the people the
full benefit of their own industry. lie, therefore, judged that
with the House, as at present formed, he could not expect a total '
repeal of the Corn-laws. That was the mainspring of ail al-
terations. Unless they could reduce the price of that article
they did nothing ; and what the people desired in this respect,
this House would not effect. It had been opposed by the Noble
Lord, as well as by the Gentlemen opposite. The people had
failed in this great object. He was there to do his best
under the circumstances, and how could he do it ? By leaving
the finances of the country in that uncertain and irregular
state in which they would have been left, if the propositions of
the Noble Lord had been carried ? Or, on the other hand,
with a full knowledge of the difficulties, was he to take the
means offered for getting out of them—means painful, if
they liked, but not so painful as many of the exag-
gerations of the effects of the law might lead them
to suppose. was he to vote for the Noble Lord, and leave the
finances of the country in a state in which no wise statesatan, in
which no man of probity, of courage, or of honour, would leave
them e___.(etheers from the Tory benches.) It was not enough to
come to him and say lie believed they might do something good—
every man must make a sacrifice. lie woo not to be told of the
inquisitorial nature of the tax; that was the cry, the cuckoo note
or the present day, rung in the ears of every man who thought with
him on the question. When the people looked the danger in the
face, and came to a clear perception of the state of things, he be-
lieved all this talk of the inquisitorial nature of the tax, would fade
before actual experience.—( Hear, hear.) And, it it did not, was
it not their duty to act according to what they thought
right, and give the people time to come to a sound opinion,
He was not to be frightened by the bugbear of the inquisitorial
nature of the tax. Then there was some idle talk of this being only
a war tax. What was the meaning of a war tax ? He supposed
it was one, the proceeds of which were only to be spent in war,
it making no difference whether that war was in India or Europe.
He would ask those Gentleman who had got up this business in
Afghanistan whether there was not an expensive war there ?
Was there not an expensive war in China ? It was a war that
must be paid for, and must be paid for by a tax; it would, there-
fore, be a war tax.—(Hear, hear.) They talked of this being a
peculiar reserve in time of need—was not this a time of need ?
Had they not been going on for the last ten years like spenthrifts
were not they ashamed to look the public creditor
in the face? And was it not necessary that we should make up our
annual it directly over the counter?—(Hear`
hear.)
htgooanyshuffiing, and producing paltry and petty
ir) Texhpeyeti might
g and pay
plans of expediency, but it was money they must have, and it was
the people who must supply it. If they did not like the mode they
took of supplying it, the remedy was in their own hands. If the
constituencies complained, they had nothing to do but to turn out
every man who had voted, not for the tax, but for keeping up the
expenditure. That would be a sweeping mode of clearing the
House, very few would escape that besom of destruction.—
(Hear, hear.) The advantage of this tax was that the people
would know what they had to pay, while it would take the
least out of their pockets. It would test the value of men's opinions,
and prove whether men were acting from national, personal, or
party views. Those who acted from national views should brave
present displeasure ; those who acted from personal views would
be swayed by personal considerations; while those who acted from
party would merely follow their leader. He might be wrong in
his notions of political economy, but having balanced the two
propositions, he must vote for that of the Right Hon. Baronet, in
the hope that he might hereafter persuade the night Hon. Gen-
tleman to alter that part of the plan which was really unjust—that
which seeks to impose an Income-tax.—(" Oh, oh.") Against that
in Committee, he should distinctly vote.—(Hear, hear.) He be-
lieved there were means of rendering the tax equal to all. A tax
on property, without a tax on income, would be unjust, but a tax
that should press equally on income and on property would not be
fair. In Committee, therefore, he should use every means ofin-
ducing the Right Hon. Baronet to alter that portion of the tax.
He believed that the exigency of the time required the tax, and he
was prepared to vote for the Right Hon. Baronet. He believed that
he alone of the two statesmen who had put forward their plane,
L had really brought forward a plan equal to the exigencies before
L them—who fairly met the difficulty in the face—who had stated
I it in the extent to which it ought to be exhibited, and
who had met it without circumlocution. There plight be