The Sun.
London, England, 1842-03-17 00:00:00

s action against the School Committee, to which both parties
belonged. On this Mr. Garnet paid him 481. 15s. 7p.• for
debts and costs.l he odd halfpenny,indeed the fraction of apound,
was palpably brought in to give the transaction a bona fide
• look. '1 he direct purchase of the vote by a pretended payment
of a vote, would have been too plain. However, the action
was continued, and would end, if it bad not ended, in a nonsuit.
It might be said that although Mr. Garnet was not a party
to the action, yet that, as a member of the Committee, his
zeal led him to pay this claim for the purpose of saving the funds
of the school. But it would be shown that in no way whatever
had this sum been brought to the account of the school-funds.
And the Committee would observe that Mr. Garnet was on
Mr. Wilson's Committee, and was his seconder. A voter or
the name of Pilling received a bribe of 51. from the son of Mr.
Garnet. Another voter was offered 451. by these gentlemen,
of wham one was the Rev. Mr. Wilson. Other acts of bribery
would be proved against Mr. Henry Thompson, now the Chief
Alagistrateof the rearough, and Mr. Wilson, jun. , the brother
of the sitting Member, and others of his Committee. The pub-
licans were bribed by an extravagance of expenditure neverknown
before in Clitheroe, and seldom known anywhere elm. He now
came to that part of the case in which he must enforce the re-
solution of the Committee by the exclusion of Mr. Trapps.—
( That gentleman immediately w ithilrew.) Mr. Wrangham then
proceeded to state several cases i i which Mr. Tiapps, who
was a solicitor, and the Town Clerk of the borough was alleged
to have giren bribt s, and one case in particular, in which it was
al eged that, in the office of the Town Clerk, he had gi' en the
large bribe of 96/., under the name of a loan, to a voter, who
gave no security of his own, but the nominal security of two
workmen in the employment of Mr. Thompson, a block printer,
and chairman of Mr. Wilson's Committee. He had now to state
cases of bribery alleged to have been committed by the sitt ng
Member in person. It wou:d b 3 shown that he offered 501. to a
person named Towlas for his vote ; and in thecompany of three
gentlemen, of whom Mr. Trapp was one, he offered Piling,
already mentioned, Si. The Learned Sergeant concluded by
stating that he would now put in the poll-books to be proved,
with a view to the scrutiny.
The poll-books having been put in and proved in the usual
form, a lengthened discussion was then entered into between
Counsel, as to the arrangement which it was proposed should
be made when the scrutiny was commenced—that the evidence
should be exhausted in each class before a different class was
entered upon, and the parties should not be at liberty, after
they had concluded the evidence with respect to a particular
class, to resume it.

In consequeeee of the announcement that the Speaker had
taken his seat in the House of Commons, the Committee did
not come to a decision upon the point, and adjourned until
eleven o'clock this day.

LAW INTELLIGENCE.

INSOLVENT DEBTORS' COURT, March 16,

MRS. GLOVER, THE ACTRESS,

Mrs. Juliana Glover, the well-known actress, of Covent-
garden and the Haymarket theatres, applied this morning to
be discharged on sureties until her hearing in April.
Mr. Commissioner HARRIS, to the insolvent—What are you?
Insolvent—An actress, Sir.

The Court inquired into the two judgments against her.
There was but one detainer on which she was in prison.
The hail was then examined respecting their sufficiency,
with which the learned Commissioner was satisfied. The in-
solvent was ordered to be discharged until her hearing, the
latter end of April.

but he (Mr. Ellice) could assure him that great anxiety I Stockport had said during the course of the last
was felt by the whole of the inhabitants of the North of ! Session against the agricultural interest.—(Hear,
Scotland en the. subject, inasmuch as the safety of a hear.) He (Lord Howick) deprecated as much,
large district was involved, and they expested that the as any one the bringing of such charges against the
matter would be decided one way or the other 'rho landed proprietors of the country.—(Cheers4
He
question he had to put to the Right Hon. Gentleman. was agreed with his Hon. Friend in opinion that these
whether he proposed to-nominate that Committee before wholesale charges ought not to be brought for ward
Easter? against any class of men, and in the strongest man-
Sir ROBERT PEEL said he could assure the Hon. ner did he disapprove of those wholesale charges
Gentleman that he did not consider .the matter one which had been brought against all. classes en-
of minor importance, but he had been unable to give it gaged in the cultivation of land. He believed the
proper attention owing to the immense mass of public course they had taken tended materially to injure
business before the House. But he saw no reason why the cause: they had prevented improvements with re-
the notice for the appointment of a Committee should speet to the importation of corn.—(Continued cheers.)
not be made to-morrow. But he could not help pointing out to the Hon. Gen-
PRISON CHAPLAINS. tleman and the House the manifest distinction which
Mr. O'CONNELL said he wished to call the atten- existed between charges made against the public conduct
tion of the Right Hon. Baronet, the Secretary for the of a class of individuals, and charges which applied to in •
Home Department, to a subject which had been before dividuals, either by name, or what was the same, by alln-
the House last night—the vindication of the conduct of sion, more particularly when these were charges not of
the Rev. Mr. Bradshaw in his treatment of the prisoners. mere misconduct but of actual infraction of the law.—
It appeared that a Catholic prisoner had requested the (Cheers.) He believed the Right Honourable Baronet
assistance of a priest, and had made his application to the opposite would agree with him that there was nothing so
clergyman. On this application being made, the clergy- unwise as the introduction of such topics in the House.
man made inquiries of the prison: r why he wished a He (Lord Hoe ick) agreed with what had fallen from the
priest to be sent for, and it appeared that he required lion. Member for Stockport, that personalities would
the priest to assist him in his defence, and therefore the not promote the advancement of great public questions.
application was resisted. Now he (Mr. O'Connell) had As he said before, he would not engage in the conversa-
looked into the Act of Parliament, and he found no such don, were it not from what had fallen from the Hon. Mem-
discretion was given to the clergyman. The Act of ber for theW est Riding of Yorks hire ; but after what he said
Parliament expressed that if a Catholic prisoner re- he found it impossible for him to refrain from expressing
quested the assistance of a priest, the priest was to be a different opinion from him, He thought the personali-
sent and admitted. He (Mr:. O'Connell) wished to ties used towards the manufacturers and mill-owners
know if the Right Hon. Gentleman considered that 'could not be justified, and were not to be palliated by
the clergyman acted properly in resisting this application? anything that had taken place, because the charges of the
Sir JAMES GRAHAM, who spoke in so low a tone one were of a totally different character from the other.
as to be scarcely audible in the gallery, was understood He hoped that in discussing those questions there would
to say, that the words of the Act had been rightly con- for the future be an absence of such personalities.
strued,.but he (Sir J. Graham) did not think they ap- Mr. FERRAND said that the House would recollect
plied to the case referred to. that during the last and present session, the Hon.
THE TRUCK SYSTEM. Member for Stockport had asserted that the
Mr. VILLIERS, addressing the Speaker, said, Sir, Corn-laws caused the distress of the country.
not having distinctly understood your interpretation of It was his (Mr. Ferranti's) lot to converse with the work-
the orders of the House respecting the mode which ought ing classes in his part of the country, who said that they
to be pursued by persons who have been charged did not consider the Corn-laws were the cause of that
out of the House by some one within the distress; but they told him it was caused by the tyranny,
House, I wish to ask a question on the subject. the oppression, and the plunder of their masters, and he
The Hon. Member for Knaresborough charged a certain had used what he had been told as an argumentuni
body of men with certain practices, and those persons ad hontinum.—(Cries of "No, no.") He (Mr. F.) said
taking notice of what had been said, presented a declara- he had, and he was prepared to give evidence of what he
tion, denying those charges. I understood you to say, said, and when the Hon. Member for Stockport said he
Sir, that those persons could not properly take notice of had brought those charges forward, on anonymous au-
what had fallen from any Hon. Member of this House. thority, lie (Mr. F.).begged to say it was no such thing.
Since then I have heard that the Honourable Mem- He never brought any charges that he was not prepared
her has repeated his charges. I am in possession to prove ; and there was not a single charge which he
of the complete denial of those charges from the was not ready to prove before a Select Committee,
woollen manufacturers resident in Yorkshire. I wish Mr. VILLIERS said, that he had received denials of
to know, Sir, whether it be consistent with the orders the charges made by the Hon. Member for Knares-
of the House for me to read their declaration ? borough, from the very places where the Hon. Member
The SPEAKER said it would be irregular in an Hon. said he had'got his charges.—(Hear, hear.)
Member to read such a document. DESIGNS COPYRIGHT BILL.
Mr. VILLIERS begged to ask if it would be in the Mr. E. TENNENT rose to move the Order of the
power of those person, on any other occasion, to repudi- Day for the second reading of this Bill. The Hon.
ate the charges brought against them. Gentleman proceeded to make some observations, which
The SPEAKER said, unless some Hon.. Member were for some time inaudible in the gallery, in con-
moved for a Committee to inquire into the subject, that sequence of the noise cau-:ed by Honourable Mem-
could not be done. bers leaving the House in considerable numbers.
Mr. FERRAND said he thought he could satisfy the He was understood to say that the object of the measure
Hon. Member. If the Hon. Member would publish the was to give a high character to English manufactures,
names of the whole of the Anti-Corn•law League, he by encouraging the manufacturers and their artists to
would find that the majority of them carried on the compete with those of foreign countries. He then read
trade he mentioned. an ordinance of the French Government, which set
Mr. VILLIERS said it was not in his power to pub- forth the great importance of excellence in design, to
lish the names of the Anti-Corn-law League. He was the manufacturers of the country, and giving a
not a member himself ; but he believed that the majority protection of nineteen years to the inventors.
of them did not practise the truck system. Down to 1835 there was no law of copyright for designs
Mr. COBDEN said he understood last night that in England. In that year Mr. Poulett Thompson
the Hon. Member for Knaresborough stated that the brought in a Bill for this object, which gave a copyright
Hon. Member for Stockport had inquired whether of three years to designs in metal, and of twelve years
the truck system prevailed. Was it not known that if woven generally. It was his intention to in-
the Honourable Member kept a quantity of cows, elude designs for printing cottons in his Bill ; but
and supplied his work-people with milk, for which he front the expensive operation of the registration system,
deducted from their wages ? He wished to know whether the parties interested preferred being exempted. But
that charge had been made. the obligations to the registration system had been re-
Mr. FERRAND said, he believed he had said, " I moved, and the manufacturers now claimed protection.
don't know whether the Hon. Member for Stockport is Printed cottons now formed one of their most
in the House or no; if he is, will he deny that he keeps valuable manufactures, and the protection of the
cows, and supplies his work people with milk, and pays designs on cotton presented a singular anomaly
himself out of their wages ?" compared with those on silk. The opposition to his
Mr. COBDEN was understood to repeat his question. measure was confined almost exclusively to those who
Mr. FERRAND said thatsbe had said, would the traded. in the designs of others, as common property, and
Hon. Member deny it. If he did, it was his (Mr. Fer- they feared that any alteration in the law might throw
rand's) deity to take his denial.—(Hear, hear.) a serious obstacle in the way of their operations. But
Mr. COBDEN said he hoped the House would give he regretted to say that he had encountered opposition
him credit for not having wished to introduce personali- from gentlemen who seemed to entertain some ill-defined
ties into their discussions.—(Hear, hear.) It seemed but strong apprehensions as to the effect, of this
that the statement which had gone forth in the Times measure, though with one exception, at Man-
was now withdrawn. He was not called upon to answer chester, he did not meet with a single excep-
any direct questions put to him ; but he would tion from the cotton-printers of England and. Ireland.
take it as a charge of last night which the All he looked for was a protection to the proprietors of
Honourable Member did not adhere to to-day. designs of a moderate and limited duration. The pre-
Now, if the House would allow him, he would just sent system was injurious to the interests of trade. A de-
state very shortly one or two facts with reference to the Sign, which might have cost the proprietor great care and
business with which he was connected. That business expense, was copied by another manufacturer in inferior
could not be carried on without the consumption of an colours and inferior cloth, •which enabled him to under-
immense quantity of cow-dung—he was letting the Hon. sell the original proprietor in his own market.—
Gentlemen opposite into the arcana of the cotton printing (Hear, hear.) Not only was he deprived by this means of
—and for this reason it was often necessary for a mann- the profits to which he was fairly entitled, but the repu-
facturer to keep not less than a hundred cows. It so tation of his house seriously suffered. He would read a
happened, however, that as his print-works were near passage from the evidence taken before the Committee
pi) a town, it was more economical to buy of 1840, to show the extent to which the sys-
cow-dung than to keep cows ; and therefore tem of piracy had been carried. The Honourable
not only was this insinuation not true, but Gentleman then read a portion of tke evidence given
there was not a shadow of foundation for it.—(Loud before the Committee, by a manufacturer in Manchester,
cheers from the Opposition.) These personal charges who stated that he had himself been an- extensive copy-
against hint were evidently got tip for the purpose of ist of other men's designs, and that he printed
distracting attention from a great and vitally important his copies on such inferior cloth as to enable him
question; and he must confess that he did not under- to undersell the original designers.—(Hear, hear.)
stand how the misconduct of inillowners and manufac- This was the evidence of a gentleman of high standing,
turers could fairly be brought into a discussion on the and of considerable distinction in his own trade, and who
subject of the Corn-laws.—(Hear, hear.) If, as the had given much assistance to the Right Hon. Gentleman,
Honourable Gentleman alleged in the Corn-law de- late Vice President of the Board of Trade, in the Committee
bate, the master manufacturers were tyrants to their appointed to inquire info this subject. This was one
rich people, that surely was no reason why they should instance of the demoralising practice.
,The next point
add to their sufferings by increasing the price of food. to which lie would refer was the evidence of Mr. Lewis, a
Mr. S. WORTLEY rose to order. The Hon. Member merchant ofLondon. The Hon. Member then read another
should confine himself to the charge which had been extract from the report of 1840, but there was so much
He had no right to go into the noise in the House that we could not catch a word. He
brought
general
questionagain s t him.
the Corn-laws, then came to the evidence of Mr. Warwick, who
The SPEAKER said, the question before the House stated that piracy was carried to such an extent that
of
was, " That the Orders of the Day be now read." at one time every new pattern that came out
—(Hear, hear.) Strictly, therefore, the Honourable was immediately copied by rival printers. This
Member ought not to wander from those Orders, evidence wits slso confirmed by that of Mr.
which were under the consideration of the House. Strutt, of the house of Clement and Company.
Mr. S. WORTLEY had not been aware that that was He could adduce other evidence to show that numerous
the question. piracies took place, merely because the present law did
Mr. COBDEN said he trusted that Hon. Members on not give protection to the designer for a longer period
both sides of the House would give him credit for endea- than three months. It might be asked, then, if the pre-
vouring to avoid these discussions ; he had done sent law did not give a greater protection, how would the
so because he perceived that the design of those designer derive protection if his copyright were established
who introduced them was to distract attention during a longer period ? The fact was, that at present
from a very important subject. (Hear, hear.) the owner of ;copyright did not think it
Ile was not in the least afraid to meet the Hon. Mem- worth while to defend himself against a pirate.
ber for Knaresborough upon any question of a personal The law now did not cover more than
character.—(Opposition cheers.) But if the House was twelve weeks for the designer. It required two or three
to be the arena for discussion of the social relations be- weeks before the success_ of his design could be
tween masters and servants, husbands 'and wives, bro- tested ; it required three or four more weeks to
titers and sisters, uncles and nephews—(Laughter)—or re-produce it, and then when a piracy became known
even neighbours ; if personal character must be the owner did not think it worth while to encounter cost,
discussed, lie should say again, that he was not trouble, and expense to defend his right for the few
afraid to meet time lion. Member (Mr. Ferrand), and he weeks that remained. But if the protection were
(Mr. Cobden) challenged him to a discussion. At all extended over a period of twelve months, or even
times he (Mr. Cobden) avoided personalities, but if for nine months, as the present Bill pr posed, the owner,
challenged to them, he would meet the Honourable thinking it then worth while to' defend his property,
Member for Knaresborough, and meet him in any way would become more vigilant. But the bad effects of
he wished.—(Hear, hear, from the Opposition.) the present law did not injure the owner of copyright
The discussion then before the House could not be alone ; they also in jury d his retail customers, the shop-
justified in any one way. He (Mr. Cobden) keeps rs, for they, knowing that at the end of the protected
did not stand there as the defender of the manufacturers periods successful portions might be imitated to an
of the country. It was quite true there might be bad indefinite extent, would be afraid to give
men amongst them, as well as good. There might lie large orders to the original owners, lest at
bad millers as well as good, in the same way as there the end of that period their stock might
were just as well as unjust Judges. But if they
be bad, remain unsaleable upon their hands, through
that was no la assu why the poor man s bread the competition of those who had bought cheaper
should be taxed.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") The from the imitators. In like manner at pre-
question then, was as to the Corn and Provision-laws. sent there was not time enough to receive
That was a question entirely for the people, and it was and execute an order from the West Indies.
quite clear the charge which had been made upon biro The evils of the present • system affected muslins and
(Mr. Cobden), as arising out of that question, was a de- calicoes in Belgium, Italy, and the United States.
vice of the opposite party, in order to escape criticism. For no One bran'eh of the manufacture, either for the
It was not becoming that House to listen to such per- home department or for foreign export, did the present
sonaldes. The'attention of the House was turned to them, law atibrd any protection whatever, whereas if the
and there could be no doubt that her Majesty's Minis- copyright were extended to nine or twelve months
tors were responsible for the deep indignity which the there would be an adequate protection for all.
character of the House suffered by listening to such The injuries which resulted to the induStrious manufac-
charges, which were perfectly unworthy of the fire-sides timers from these practices were so obvious, as not to re-
ef country gossips. quire any comments from him. There was one, however,
Mr. STEWART WORTLEY maid, for his part there to which he must draw the attention of the House.
was no man in the House more adverse than he He meant the permanent injury which these practices
was to the introduction of personalities in the debates must cause to the future prospects of the industry of the
which had from time to time taken place in that House. country, and the character of the British manufactures
But with respect to the charge made by the Hon. Mem- in foreign markets. In these manufactures there
ber for Knaresborough, he should say, that when he un- were two processes, first, the intellectual process—
dertook in the first place. to show that those gentlemen malting the design ; then the mechanical process which
who had been united under the name of the Anti-Corn- consisted in the manufacture of the fabric. In the
law Le Igue were obnoxious to these charges, he oaly did latter of these, this country stood unrivalled ;
that for which an example had been set him besoe;.! by Hon. but in the former, the beauty and supe-
the fault of the on. riority of design, the French artists were
r. S.Wortley) was sure much before us. It; however, in addition to the cheap-
INGitemmt lheemr et.(n)r
st . 0
ro Whateverughi A bel H
that the charges against him, and the objections to the Huss anti stability of the production, in which we
not come with a very excelled all our rivals, we could add beauty of
it,crozis egrace
c h
flriemlniadtitlaokseen,
honourable Gentlemen who design, our fabrics would then be accepted in
had brought those charges forward.—(Hear, hear.) every market of the world ; but such was the pre-
Withproduce elegant designs,it tended
recollect the language that
Stockport, they could not but rec
respect to the Hon. Gentleman the. Member for sent law, that instead of encouraging the artist to
from turning his attention to the subject.
course of the last Session. in many instances persons who had it in contemplation
agricultural body during the
speeches. design, because the law, as it now stood, did not
the words
" monsters," to prol um new and valuable articles had
abandoned the
They could not forget that
had
lion. Gentleman had made use of, when speaking of the courage him
of ur legislation. alliird sufficient protection. Another
Mr. COBDEN—I was speaking result of the
e Hon. Member
" tyrants." and " demons."
Mr. S. WORTLEY contended that the
The
Imperfect operation of the law was,. that it made us de-
had applied. those terms to the agricultural classes. e pendent upon our rivals in France, not merely for the
that occasion had dis- finer class ot goods, but for the designs employed in this
Hon. Member for Stockport. on
tincify said, that the landlords
,interposec like
fmonsters country. The extension for which he contended would
figured, in his
and demons between the welfare and happiness tsth e remedy all the evils which lie had pointed out, and would
people, and the prosperity which was opening
_ before;l have a tendency to raise the character of English manti-
them. While such language was adopted and promulgate factures.' But there was another consideration by which
through all parts of the country, while those rancorousii)u he would recommend this extension to the adoption of
descriptions were given of the agricultural interest, the _House, namely, the necessity of preventing the waste
Gentlemen could not be so simple as to imagine that. of money, by the establishment of schools of design.
language of that kind could be used with
v!I impunity, If they were to have schools of design in this country,
without bringing retribution on those est.' d lit was' necessary to give security and protection to those
Without taking upon himself to on
thib'erfialfogre
Kbfnought whose genius was engaged in that business. He (Mr. T.)
forward by his Hon. Friend the
Member
for Stock would not venture to intrude upon the patience of the
borough, lie would Say that the Hon. 3 _ oc House by going through all the advantages' which in
port was the last person in the world whol had y right his opinion would result from the measure he proposed.
to complain of his conduct.— (Cheers.)
from 1 • nor would he then take up the time of the
Lord 110 WICK would have abstained ta sing House by anticipating the objections which might
any part in the discussion, but for what had be taken to the second readisg of the Bill.
fallen from his Honourable Friend opposite. He However, he would state that notwithstanding the prohibitory
had heard what had fallen from his Hon. Friend , duties existing in other countries against our manufactures,
with great surprise, and with still greater regret,— there was little apprehension of a successful competition from
(Cheers.) He regretted to find a gentleman so much those countries. In Belgium the duty amounted to 25 or 30
entitled to respect as his lion. Friend taking up the de- per cent., and yet the quantity exported was not loss than
fence of the introduction of those personalities which, 5,200,000. yards of printed calico. In the United States of
in his (Lord Howlett's) opinion, had been so mis- I :31fudircao, tkoouglih:heoZsrieff was ostensibly modified, the amount
chieVously intruded into their debates.
His 11". Erie" cent :Lod yet notwithstanding to that
almost prohibitory
80 per
had said, without entering into the justification of the the number of yards f • g duty,
o prin ed calico exported to America was
lion. Member for Knaresborough, that he was not sur- on an average, for the last 30 years, 36,000,W. The Hon.
prised at the Hon. Member adopting the course he had Gentleman concluded by moving that the Bill be read a se-
done, in consequence of what the Rom Member for road time.

extended,
hu tie.
TheyNw hadthe been
nmsiitletenet hoandtahffaotrdsoebdjelicitm,
lore, the House must have recourse to the evidence on that sub-
.D_
'ect. It would be a matter for the serious consideraSion o the
Government, whether, in the event of their extending
Lieriod of the copyright, they ought to .
.Nl?_s
the copyright of designs for calics.s for a longer period than
naonda,idth9seSurr:
six months. It was true, he believed, as had Do
slated by the lion. Member for Belfast, that there st,' .1! -
strong feeling in favour of an extension of the time anions the
manufacturers in. Scotland. The Hon. Member for Belfast said •
that the calico printers in Ireland were unanimous on the ,
ject ; that might be so, but it should be recollected that tnpre.
was but one calico printer in Ireland —( A laugh.)
was the opinion in Manchester? The Hon. Gentleman..s.a,!
that there were 48 houses in favour of an extension of
time, and 36 against it. But 36 was a very considerable mow,.
rity, and when they were called up n to alter the law the IP,:t.
nion of such a minority ought certainly to be regarded.
but
But Win
House should look, however, not at particular towns, b
what was the general opinion of those engaged in the tra.l:_.
He (Mr. Shiel) would admit to the Hon. Gentleman that Ill!.
Putter was a most important witness, and that Mr. Potter w"l..
ill favour of an extension of the time • but they should look
the admissions which Mr. Potter had made. That gentlle of
had made the important admission that the great majority
those engaged in producing these designs were against antyteel,,
tension. He was asked if consumers- were not ben
i'?,lllhe
and he said they were. He then stated, and it was of or
t
once to be known, that the lower orders were interested
:se
matter. , What was the evidence of a witness produced by thy'
Hon. Member for Belfast himself, to sustain his case ?.,;aeu,.
he said the lower orders had an interest -in lsrge ellaull"ere
being produced.—(Cries of 44 Hear, hear.") They
ci,
not to neglect the retailers; and how were they affect not
If this Bill were carried, an injunction would lie, seri
only against the pirate, but also against the 100 or 200 retailers
who dealt with him. There was no doubt on the subjeelj.
(Cheers.) He did not mean to say that the objection vraSsici,
superable, but it was a ;strong one. He now came to the
dence of Mr. Kershaw, No. 3,883, who stated that the. Tat
tailers petitioned against the extension of copyright ; and tYco
the Hon. Gentleman was himself the person who produced
book in which that evidence was given. the Mr. E. TENNENT said he referred to the petitions of
persons themselves, and not to the book.
Mr. SHIEL—At all events it showed the interest the !fa
tailers had in the matter. The motion for the retailers 2;
obvious ; it was to escape from difficulty and litigation.
matter, therefore, stood thus between the parties ; there ;.7;
on the one hand a great body of manufacturers who swee t:it?,
naturally in favour of extension ; and there were a large
of capitalists, who had been in the habit of copying, edit.
retailers who dealt with them, who were opposed ~ous
Would his Hon. Friend forgive him for saying that he Ling
have acted more judiciously if he had abstained from 11Te0,
remarks upon individuals, such as Mr. Brooks and Mr. 1110'1
who lie said were pirates? Instead of that Mr. Brooks had
to 1 s
copied for ten years. When the. Honourable Gentle 10
mentioned Mr. Brooks's name, he thought that
si
should have been mentioned ; and Mr. Lucas, fe,,
far from acknowledging that he dealt with Pilo&
said that he dealt with those parties only who gave in. g re-
after the three months had expired. A pirate, under the Phad
sent Bill, was one who copied before the three moot" had
expired. Such remarks, then, he thought, were not right, ate, '
it must give Mr. Lucas great pain to see himself talue,Pt of
sented. The Hon. Gentleman then proceeded to read a 14'00.
Mr. Lucas's evidence before the Committee. He then coo s'
tinned—Was it right to say that Mr. Lucas bought tivtistaig
pieces a-year principally from pirates ?He deprecated h
o,“is $
up Mr. Lucas to such charges, and read an extract fr
newspaper alleging that that gentleman had dealt witho Stf 'r
rates. Were they to extend the copyright from three, t
or nine months? In 1787, a protection of two moeths,b se
granted, but the Bill was only for two years. In 1789't 'the
months were added, but the Bill was temporary. In 17 n''
ears, ,
BM was made perpetual, after an experience of seven 3
oill
but the period of copyright was not extended ; it was die
Limited to three months. From that time to the presentto
law had not been changed. . The trade was in a pro're sjs
state, and, therefore, they should pause before they lusce,
any large or extensive changes in a matter of such imports" b.
He thought if a choice were made, that a period of six taulithe • 1:
would not- prejudice the trade of the country. while °Old 4s
same time it would promote the interests of individuals- ket ; ...!
period would be an ample protection for the horne.onoue
but if he found a more extended period would give an*" ars
tage to the continental market, be should pause before he g-sis ,t
it, There 'were three objections to the extension t° t
months--first, that it would put a restraint on the gugiels
copyist, whilst it would be impossible to restrain those a's
ihst
glum, France, and Germany. The next objection was, 3O
by extending the time of the copyright they would furnish
an,
additional incentive to piracy; for they would by that °oo
be holding out a further temptation to the few parties t 0,
would be dispose at any risk, to violate the law. The es 'the
sion of the copyright would also interfere with
~,t
facilities with which commercial operations outissed
be carried on. That point had been clearly esta"7B4o.
by Mr. Lucas in his evidence before the Committees of the
The consequence which would necessarily follow fre°l;sast
adoption of the proposition of the Hon. Member for -"s .„,„
narls,
would be this—that a merchant, before he
purchased gpr should ascertain which was the original producer, and that ; in
ducer might dictate his own terms. Mr. Lucas stated Oases
his opinion nothing could be more destructive of the coullre3
of the country than such a state of things, and he cool tie.
that everything which fettered trade was prejudicial to lep,
He would refer the Hon. Member for Belfast to the aPre
sions expressed about the introduction of the rem
tem in 1840. This system was fully at work in France, ;0,
there were fifty-eight registering offices for patterns. of
were the manufacturers of Scotland, of Manchester. g
Ireland, to send their patterns to one office in Londe', teed
they were, how was the registering officer to act ? as sow
before the Committee, one manufacturer issued no less
mist
500 original patterns in a year, how was the officer to elatteres
and give certificates tif the originality of the millions of Pipes
that must be sent to him ? and therefore, before the .
Member for Belfast determined upon the plan of registratiocoo,
proposed, he (Mr. S.) trusted he would most attentively
ot
sider the objectionsmadeby the present head of the Governs' at,
in 1840. He entreated the Vic- President of the Board ofllll3
and the House generally, to consider the difficulties which
the
attend a system of registration. The Right Hon. Baronet' the
be
Member for Tamworth, had said he was afraid there would
much difficulty in establishing such a system, so evalleseb-st
were those matters. As to the officer making certificates. Iva
particular designs were original, the idea was monstrous. ehef
Right Hon. Gentleman opposite had justly said, that Lres
should endeavour to produce an alliance between manufae
and art; but let them take care that they did not g'/' It
encoui agement to art greater than they gave to commeree•thst
was not, he believed, by individual remuneration of artists tot
art itself could be promoted. He was most anxious to rrhetse
individual property in design as far as was csnsistent pit at it
public interest ; but it should be always borne in mind, t" tip'
was by cheapness in production that the commerce of this ce
try had been advanced.
Mr. E. TENNENT explained.
After a few words from Mr. SHIEL,
rioe
Dr. BOWRING said, that lie did not object to the Pub.ect
of the Bill, but he conceived that it was inefficient for the °fists
in view, namely, the protection of invention. The la
Gentleman in his Bill did not define what invention was' ighl
France the system pursued enabled them to
protect co the
at a small expense, and there could be no doubt but thatt pf
protection thus- afforded had been beneficial to the arising
design, but the system proposed by the present Bill of lea es
J
the decision of these questions of invention to two os eri'
of the Peace, afforded no security whatever to thoserme
torious men who, by their inventions of new designs, had The
so much for the credit of themselves and of their country. I for
Hon. Member should begin by creating a proper tribliqnssi
judging in what invention consisted, and also a proper trios ip.
for affording justice to those whose inventions had l'ee„res'
vaded. The Bill was inefficient, and would lead to ,
pad
lions which would be unin elligtble to those who would be oafish
upon to judge them. He feared the Bill would not aceett'r
the object the Hon. Gentleman had at heart. it 3 It°
Mr. MARK PHILIPS would, if he had conseesrsing
own feel'ngs, have abstained altogether from ss.`" the
upon the Committee.—( Hear, hear.) Manchester 0"; he
great seat of the cotton-printing trade, and howeve'rtioo
might decide, he was certain of offending some
and tre
ss
of his constituents. It was, therefore, with fear aeu, it sa'
bling, that he entered that Committee. He, however, wee;
tisfied that no man could be a fairer juryman on the .stUh
ehe
than himself, for he had never had any connexion o,'„d,
it
trade, and whichever way the question might be dee'",-tsose
could not at all affect his interests. He had thought that s
on
circumstances would have entirely exonerated hire from
charges of improper conduct ; but since he had last sPet9 thst
the subject, it had been reported among his constituen , he
he had spoken either dishonestly or in ignorance. l'lb
e°a'sr'i
did not pretend to greater wisdom than. his neje 04
but it certainly was hard to be taxed with dish° oe
under such circumstances, and therefore he stood thece, ieno'
the present occasion, to justify his own acts and eau half
He should not trouble the House with any details ; he !are
wished to say that he approached the subject n
with a sin ree
desire to arrive at what was just and sound. Many vbere
papers and pamphlets had reached him from the districts !rs'
the question possessed a peculiar interest, containing
tions against the evidence given before the Committee. those
he thought displayed exceeding bad taste. If the to-te the
persons displayed in their designs were not better 'll3'lllg
style of their writing, he did not think any one would besssie
to pirate them. Heexpltinedthemode in which Parisian( e in
were published in this country, and stated that a sa'
Manchester had purchased a pattern which another tiplo'l l$
denth also, and were about to publish, t
was acclly made known to them that it was alreadY
.Inrior
hands of another house. Whatever might lie the 1:101: it
taste of the French in matters of design, he slid not lh thel
was attributsb:e to a natural organisation in vyllie
surpassed cur countrymen, but to the superior caltetlitale
the French Government had always taken to to works
the access of the artisans to the observation and study
of art. But in this country, all the public collections "rietioos
of art and objects of taste were fenced round with resltn
which excluded, for the most past, the great body of tie°
'
wsrking people from deriving either amusement or Instr m
and
from them ; and such institutions were closed on the (13Y:nrsing
in the parts of the year, when it was meat easy for the !, cer
classes to visit them. Another fact which he had alwa.7,l,,t,te'
fleeted with our inferiority in taste was, that our pubhi'
!" the
tiosis were closed on the Sunday, the only day on they
working classes could spare time to examine them, wi'l3o
nr
were open on the Continent on that day. He must I ot re-
knowledge that the School of Design in Manchester ha( n 0 ,A 0
ceived that support to which it was entitled from lhesk the
were bound to uphold it, and certainly he could not a: hog.
Government for aid to it while those persons held back.oolds
ever, the offer that had been made by the Government s the
he believed, have an excellent effect in arousing ex,
spirit of Manchester. Ile (lid not think that thel ef-
tension of the period of copyright would have, caliecr
feet in giving more employ
printers, and to designers, though the latter stated to t_ux*tensiot
mittee their expectation that it would. In short, e
Oulu
employment to engravers, 14?,.. Cos
to six months was not necessary, because a good patternsaif
always sell itself, arid shopkeepers must live only by h losses'
velty and variety. Indeed Mr. Warwick, who was foraa
_lead
time, stated to the Committee that a lady would not buy 0 ', one.
dress of the same pattern, though it might have been a go°.".etioo
but shemusthave another. All that was required wasp r to
for one season for the sale of the goods. He would nestt. r'cesse
the cost of thedesign. From the evideece takenbef_arice. .I,lnehide,l
mittee it appeared the cost of printing was 55.,wh
011,1 the de
the cost of the design. The proportion of the cost
arr. the
•
sign was the 192 d part of the cost-price, and 352 d "
i fling
sel ing price, so that the cost of the design was really our
importance. An increase of the copyright mitts J"'
cost of the
trade. It would have the effect of increasing the c sow
lion. He grounded his apprehensions on experience,
a!'s's the
article, and by that increa .e they would reduce thee°)±, 00.1,
had occurred might occur again. He was not advoe tli!skuns.
e el"
stances of the case, he thought there was sufficient protection
cause of piracy, but he must say that, under all th • on
for one season ; and he would say, that upon a tteenest,
effeminate a nature, created one day and forgotten then to
these inventions, which were so difficult of definition..„_...e
that they were not wise in attaching so much importance
Captain FITZROY apologised for addressing the. Hui' hot
'this subject, and he should not have thought of
he considered his own ability; but his first consideration r
his
constituents, and he therefore should have been deserti_ifject•
duty if he had not risen to say a few words on this sw. of
Under the present system the manufacturer was obligedtviVsse '
a high . price on his goods, in order to provide against doing -55
ma
that might remain in hand, as there was not a sUtlielen
isivenhint he copyright; but under the proposed ow"'

Mr. W. WILLIAMS having been a member of the Com-
mittee appointed two years ago to inquire into this question,
and having paid all the attention in his power to the investiira-
tion, he had come to a conclusion quite opposite to that
of the Hon. Gentleman. It did not seem that the Hon Gen-
tleman himself saw any very urgent necessity for a change n
the law, ;nasmuch as he had allowed two years to pass without
taking any steps upon the recommendation of that Commit-
tee. The Hon. Gentleman had moved for the appointment
of that Committe, and as was usual in such cases he had taken
care that there should be a majority of persons prepossessed in
favour of his own views. And yet what was the result ? When
the question was put, that "It is expedient, &c"—(A laugh)
—the Committee d.vi led equally, and the resolution was ac-
cordingly carried by the casting vote of the Hon. Gentleman ;
and one of those who voted on the same side had never at ten.
ded the meetings of the Committee, and only came down on
that occasion to give his vote in support of the Honourable
Gentleman's proposition. Now the cotton printing was
one of the most • important branches of our manufactures.
It was almost the only branch of our trade which was in a
flourishing condition. There had been exported during the
Present year 25 millions of yards of printed cotton more than
had been exported during the preceding year. The present
law had been in existence upwards of 50 years, and he thought
the House ought to pause before it alit red a law which had
worked so welt. It was strange that while they had some ol
the first persons in the cotton-printing trade Members of that
House, the subject should have been left to be brought forward
by the lion. Member for Belfast. No one connected with the
trade had expressed the least wish for any alteration in the law.
About 22 years since an attempt had been made to alter the
law, and a Bill had been introduced for that purpose, which
had passed through the House of Commons, but which had
been referred by the House of Lords to a Select Committee,
and had, after an investigation, been dropped. The Hon.
Gentleman had by no means stated the evidence taken before
the Committee with fairness. One of the gentlemen exa-
mined before that Committee had stated that he had been en-
gaged in the trade many years, and that he had never see.
above two original designs in his life. The fact was all ori-
ginality of design was exhausted. The manner in which new
patterns were made was by looking over old ones, and
taking figures from them to form fresh combinations.
He considered the Bill was a complete fallacy as to giving a
property of the nature it proposed to convey, and if it passed
the greatest injury would ensue, and litigation would arise
among the trade. A person may go into Chancery and con
tinue a suit there for twenty years on a matter which did not
amount to half-a-crown. The Hon. Gentleman referred to
the evidence of Mr. Lucas, one of the largest West India
merchants in the country, but the Hon. Gentleman forgot that
that was two years since and circumstances were now changed.
Mr. Lucas would now be placed in a different position, and
such difficulties would be thrown in the way of the trade by
the Bill, that Mr. Lucas would be compelled altogether to
abandon the shipment of printed calicoes, the manufacture of
this country. Mr. Lucas also stated that the -object
of the extension of the Copyright was to give increased
profits or to ge' higher prices for goods. That cheapness of
production was the only means of maintaining the ascend-
ency of our manufactures, and they would never be able to
continue in their present condition if they shackled trade in
this manner. Her Majesty's Government were now intro-
ducing to the House a great and extensive relaxation of the
restrictions in trade, and here was the Hon. Gentleman, on
the other hand, introducing a measure for extending monopoly
in one of the most important branches of trade, and that in
an article which really did not belong to anybody. The Hon.
Gentleman had referred to the evidence given by Mr. Stirling,
who had alluded to the establishment of Mr. Henry, at Dublin.
He had no doubt that Mr. Henry was the cause, of t- .e Bill
being brought forward, and had it not been for the fact of
Mr. Henry having established a print work at Dublin, they
would never have heard of the Bill. Mr. Stirling stated that
Mr. Henry had been in business ten years, and during that
time he was always in the habit of producing the patterns of
others, but without violating the law, as it did not extend to
Ireland. After that period he ceased to be a copyist, and
employed persons as designers. What was the ad-
vantage? While he was a copyist, he effected not
only a saving in wk,es, but als) in the engraving
of his rollers for printing, in consequence of going to the same
engravers as those employed by those to whom the original
prints belonged, and thus saved half the expense. If there was
an advantage in being a copyist, why did he abandon it when
he could continue to copy without an infringement of the law ?
Because he found it answered his purpose much better to pro-
duce his own patterns or compositions, he called his own, than
to copy those of others. The system of copying from the de-
signs of others had of late been declining ; that was the state-
ment of every individual who had given his evidence before the
Committee of 1840. One gentleman, to whom the Hon. Gen-
tleman had alluded, stated he had been in the business during
the last thirty years, and that he had been in the habit
of copying much more frequently during the first twenty
years of that time than during the remaining period. But
he had not acted, dishonestly in taking those copies, for
that Gentleman stated that no man had a property in those pa-
tents, and that they were the common right of all. The fact
was, that many of the designs, which it had been complained
were copied, were themselves but copies from the french.
The whole system was founded upon the practice of imitating
and copying from preceding designs, and it could not be pro-
perly said that there was any exclusive right to any design.
The Hon. Gentleman had referred to Mr. Tnompson. Now
this gentleman was no doubt the most eminent calico-printer in
Lancashire, but that gentleman never gave evidence upon that
Committee. He (Mr. Williams) could have wished the plea-
sure of seeing that gentleman before that Committee, for the
purpose of giving evidence; but instead of that he wrote cer-
tain letters. Now it would have been very convenient to some
of the Members of that committee to have heard some ex-
planation of some of the 'opinions expressed in those letters.
He had no doubt given very satisfactory answers to some of
Clem. But he (Mr. Williams) would like to know the nature
of those answers, instead of depending on ex parte statements.
He would say, that if the parties on that Committee had acted
with even-handed justice between ail parties, they would never
have allowed she introduction of those letters as part of the
evidence taken before them. The Hon. Gentleman had been
pleased to allude to what would be the probable argument used
by him (Mr. Williams), viz., the effect of this change on
the foreign trade of this country. It was stated by
the principal witness upon that Committee that there
opinion was, that if any extension of the present copyright
should ever take place, that it would lead to a most extensive
system of copying from our patterns by foreign calico printers.
One of the gentlemen stated, that it would answer his purpose
to establish print works in Belgium, for the express purpose of
copying patterns for foreign orders. Another gentleman stated.
that the first thing they would have to do, would be to commu-
nicate with the calico printers in the different countries on the
Continent, to ascertain what they would perform the different
sorts of work for. They could calculate to the greatest pos-
sible nicety the cost of eves v article which could be placed be-
fore them connected with their trade, by looking at the quality
of the cloth, and the number of colours it contained. He was
convinced that the carrying of the proposed measure would in..
terfere with the calico printing trade to a most injurious ex-
tent. If the Hon. Gentleman meant to legislate at all on this
question, it ought to be in an opposite extent ; but for this there
was no necessity, as every one was satisfied with the present law.
The Hon. Gentleman had referred to a strong feeling on this
subject existing in Scotland. What did Mr. Dalgleish, the
only Gentleman from Scotland who gave evidence before the
Committee,_ say? He said that there was 30 little cotton in
Scotland that printers scarcely ever protected their patterns;
he produced four or five hundred patterns a-year, and he
printed about '200,000 pieces, but he never knew any of them
copied; he had seen none, but he had heard of one or two.
Mr. Lockett, who was the greatest printer in this country, said
he engraved 2,500 pieces a-year, but he only mentioned one
instance of copying : and when one or two pieces were shown
to Mr. Potter he could not undertake to say whether they were
copies of the same pattern ; he said he should say that
they were taken from the same design, but he could
not say that they were actually from the same pattern.
How was it possible for them to devise a mode of ascertaining
what were and what were not original patterns, when practical
men, who had been engaged in the trade for their whole lives
were
olvedless unable to distineuish them ? If the law passed it would
inv en litigation ; and the consequence would be that
num ers of per one who were engaged in the trade would be
compelled to abandon it. He entreated the House to pause
hefore they gave their assent to this measure. The late Sir
Robert Peel, who was the most distinguished person engaged
in the trade, had never proposed an alteration in the trade, al-
though if he had done so he would not have had the least diffi-
culty in carrying his proposal. The same might• be slid of
several other Gentlemen who had sat in that House at different
periods. Unless a case of the strongest kind were made out,
he trusted the Howe would not pass the Bill. He should feel
it to be his duty to offer every opposition which it was in his
power to give to it.
Lord FRANCIS EGERTON said that Hon. Gentlemen
had pointed out the source to which the Bill prop sod by, his
Honourable Friend (Mr. Tennent) was traced; but in his (Lord
F. Egerton's)opinion it was a matter of very small consequence
to whom that Bill was primarily traced—whoever originated
the measure, the manufacturers of the country would be greatly
indebted to the House for carrying it into effect ; for his part
he (Sir F. Egerton) would be sorry to oppose a Bill which, in
his opinion, was founded upon the soundest principles of mo-
rality and justice, but at the same time he owed that deference
to the opinions of practical men, who were capable of judging
of their own interests, that he would not assent to the Bill if
they had any objection to its contents. If they gave it anything
like opposition, it would be a very strong reason to induce him
(Lord F. Egerton) to accept the invita'ion of the Hon. Gen-
tleman (Mr. Williams) to pause, at least, before he gave it his
consent; he (Lord F. Egerton) had looked into the evidence
before the House, and he believed he was justified in saving
that, out of 176 firms there were only 36 firms which 'had
given opposition to the Bill, and in Manchester, where he be-
lieved the majority of those firms were, he found that a majo.
rho of 43 firms were against that 36, and in favour of the Bill.
He thought he could safely say that in supporting that Bill
himself he only acted in accordance with the opinions of the
respectability, and wealth, and intelligence of the constituency
which he represented. The Hon. Gentleman who had just sat
down, had traced the advantages which the French
have over this country in consequence of their schools
of design—he did not know what was the reason
there were nut schools of design in this country. He
believed the reason was that there was no interest taken in the
matter, as there were no chances of succeeding, owing to the
state of the law upon the subject. He understood the Govern-
ment were about to give a sum of money to Manchester for
schools of design in that town. If designs were to have their
pi oper value—if artisans were to receive a just remuneration
for their skil, were they to be told that that was monopoly? It
seemed to him that that was a strange misapplication of
the term. It had been said that there was not much
Scotch evidence before the Committee that sat on this
staject. In a letter which he had received from a
gentleman whose opinion on the matter was of eonsequenee,
the writer stated that the Bill which had been laid before Par-
liament contained provisions enough to promote the object of
it, and that, therefore, no material alteration was requisite, and
that without seeking any additional evidence on the cue,tion,
the Hon. Members ought to support the Bill. The Noble Lord
read another letter from a merchant connected with the uth
American trade, stating that, in the South American markets,
the English prints were spoken of as made only for sale,
and not
for use. 'On the part of his lion. Friend, he begged leave to
state that the majority in the Co.nmittee who voted in favour of
the extension, was six to three.

Mr. SHItL said, that he had paid great attention to the
proceedings
of the Committee, and he remembered that he ex-
pressed in the Committee that the evidence only should be re.
ported, and that the Committee should withhold the expres-
sion of any opinion. On that question being put, the
arties were equal, but by the vote of the Chair-
man, the proposition was negatived. The Committee
then divided on the question, " That it was expedient to extend
the copyright of design," and the resolution was carried by a
majority of six to three. He agreed wi.h the resolution gene-
rally, that the copyright should be extended ; but he did not
think that in the case of printed calicoes the extension ought to
be to so long a time as nine months. He thought six months
qu•te long enough. He had also very great doubts as to the
expediency of adopting the machinery of registrat
( Hear. )-- In giving a due protection to the property which
a man had in his own invention, care should be taken , that they did not injure the public'. The Right Hon. 1
Gentleman, the Member for famworth, had made a
speech
in February, 1840, in which he had strongly im- ,
pressed upon the House the importance of having the evidence of practical men. The Right Hon. Gentleman on that occa-
sion
had said, that he felt great difficulty in coming to a con- ,
elusion, first, as to the extension of the copyright; and, se-
condly, as to what ought to be the time to which it should be I