The Sun.
London, England, 1842-02-16 00:00:00

maintain that-Station in society which it was their right to .it had been ionncl ;pre profitable to devote land to grazing
hold.J(Loud Cheers from' the Opposition benches.) That purposes. It was therefore clear thatwe could no longer look
statement was met by cheers from the Opposition side of the to Ireland for II pl'es as eet fore. (ear hear.) In this.
House, but if he had nut made it he should not have been acting state of things: aPndiat apeil:ii,d°of acknowledged distress, the
I
consistently for the cause which he advocated. They on the Right Ilon. Gentlemai the First 11.14nister of the Crown came
other side of the House came forward to advecate the cause of forward and announced' to the House' •
the distressed manufacturers, for that distress he and his pasty his opinion, the Corn-. laws our ht bea altered. He(Mr. L.)
felt is much as they did.—(Loud cries of " Hey, hear,") agreed entirely and the country that, ire
with what he had often heard the Right lion.
They (the agriculturists) had, however, themseNes some Baronet say, that the Corn-law was a question which
years back been placed in the same distress as that of which ought not to be altered without a great necessity • but if the
the manufacturers now complained. What was the course the necessity had arrived, the alteration ought to be so' fir sat's-
agriculturists adopted? They went to the Legislature and factory as to he an improvement in the condition of the people.
asked for relief ; but did they ask that their interest should be —(Cheers ) He (Mr. L.) had examined the Scale proposed
promoted at the cost of the manufacturers ? No, they tock a by the Right Hoa. Baronet, and his (Mr. L.'s) opinion of it
very Afferent course; they relied on the justice aud the w,olom would be given in a few words. There was a great deal of
of the Legislature. But what was the course the manufac- apparent masagement in some practical substitution of
turers now pursued ? They asked them to grant a measure a sliding for a lumping scale, and oho some posi-
which would place them in the same position as that in which tire improvements, for the evils of the jumps were
the manufacturers were at present placed —( Cries of " Oh, oh," demonstrative. He believed also that the plan of the Right
from the Opposition benches.) Fie did not think these things Hon. Gentleman, while most efficiently protecting agricul-
sheuld be scouted at ; he thought they should meet a recep- tore, would bring more money to the revenue than the exist-
tion of a very different character ; they (the Ministers) might ing one. Still, admitting' those improvements, he (Mr. L.)
be mistaken in the views they held; but they believed they must say that the more he• looked at the subject the less lie
were right; and if they gave them the measure which felt that it would afford any practical amelioration of the cors
was asked by the Noble Lord, they would fail in relieving elitie,n of thew, Masses who had been aggrieved by the opera -
the distress of which they complained. Its speaking of dis- 'tion of the present Owe laws, and that therefore it was not
tress. the How Gentleman had especially alluded to the town worth while going about it for the sake of the little improve-
which he himself represented. He must krue.v, however, that ment that had beets introduced.—(Cheers.) As for three
the principal trade of Sheffield was with the l'inited States (if numerous classes who had so long suffered under the existing
America, and that the difficulties which had taken place across system, nothing iti the way of practical benefit would result._
the water, must have been at the bottom of that distress. He (Cheers.) But before adverting to the sliding scale in detail,
trusted and he believed that those difficulties would soon cease, there was an important preliminary part to which he first desired
that the distress in Sheffield would cease with them, and that to call the attention of the House. the more so as it had not vet
the eommes real relations between the two countries would be been adverted to, On comparing the scaleof the Right Hon. Be-
put on a sound a footing, as he was sure must be the desire of robet with the old one, a considerable diminution of duties must
every Member ofboth sides of the House. The Hon. Gentle- undoubtedly be acknowlelged. But, before he made up his
man opposite had said that he could not perceive any mind on
peculiar burthens on the landed interests, or why, they • the Right
minor consid '
erasions. In proposing the new male,
this point. Ise (34. Laboachere) must attend to a few
should be entitled to any protection at all. Surely this Hon. Baronet proposed several other alterations in taking
seas not the time to tell the country of the many burthens on the the averages, by adding no less than 156 tomes to the 150
agriculturists, in the shape of taxes, disqualifications, and the from whirls the averages were already taken, and by taking
many disabilities under which the laud laboured, among the the duty of making the averages out of the hands of the corn
greatest of which was the prohibition of the cultivation of to- inspectors, who had it now, and entrusting it to the Excise
bacco in this country. If they adopted the step of ;removing officers. Of these 156 many were small agricultural towns,
the duty from corn, were they prepared to answer for the con-
and, when added to the present 150, the aggregate would in-
sequences ?—( Hear, hear, from the Opposition benches.)
He elude almost all the large towns in the country. Now this
(Sir E. Knatchbull) had had dealings with a farmer in his change would affect the averages, as hitherto advertised, and
neighbourhood, who was a very cunning man in his
abut the might alter the whole scheme of duties. The corn inspectors
farmer said to him one day, " I have been thinking the had made up the returns in a very careless manner.
Corn-laws, and these new fangled notions, I think 'should like but the Excise officers would do the business carefully; so far
to have a free trade in corn." This surprised him very much, this would he an improvement, though, doubtless, the Right
and he said he had never heard him say so before, Hon. Gentleman had no intention to affect the averages. But
nor any one else in his situation—(Loud cries of " Oh, oh !" from the opinions of practical and experienced men, he was
from the Opposition benches)—" Well, but I think I'm right," enabled to say, that. the effect of those alterations, and of others
said the farmer, " I should like to have the Corn-laws re- which he would immediately advert to, would be to cause a prac-
pealed, and a ree-trade instead, but on one condition, that lice' reduction in the advertised average of no less than ss. a guar-
before they are repealed; I should like to sell all my stock, ter. The Right Hon. Gentleman said that he had examined the
sheep, corn, and such like, and to lie by till we can see the alleged averages, and that so far as he could make out, the It'd-
effect of the change." He ( Sir E. Knatchbull) said that feronce of price between the London averages and the general
could not be done. " Oh, then," said the farmer, "I think averages of the country was very small. Now he (:1144-
it would be better to have the laws remain as they are."—(A bouchere), after referring to the documents that bad beenwur..
laagh. ) Now, if the duty were taken off corn, what would niched to that House, did not think that that statement of the
become of all the labourers and occupiers of land in the agri- Right Hon. Baronet could be borne out. On the ccotrary,
cultural districts? A large number of them would be sent to he thought it was clear from the papers to winch
the manufacturing districts, which would only cause more he should presently advert, that the Londoa averages in the
misery, distress, and destitution than exists at present.— year 1841, by means of fictitious sales—it practice whieli he
( Hear, hear.) If there were one part of the speech made by did not, mean to defend, but which, nevertheless, had ode lac
) tical effect of lowering the prices—it appeared that the London-
the lien. Gentleman opposite, which he (Sir E. Knatclibull
regretted more than another, it was that part which insinuated averages were affected by fictitibus sales, maths by p 1 tor
London,nie 's.
Then,
than
It t41::e: eabevelwaftegeenss
that, their actions were founded or interested motives. Such a
twhheoarnveortaigagesedott.othme aeukueta,trdyi,ffeexreenlucdeinogf
statement could leave no impression on the minds of men who
htehatprei•eaes. sufficienntiy, apsrot;dtlisiye
ir)farAedcrupou
did their duty because it was their duty, and who stood there
fiofetttliseounsdounatwu4rhei(uhf
tig,uosveernaeleds_t
on different grounds than to promote their own interest. He
(Sir E. Knatchbull) thought it his duty to consider this sues-
; that subject. In the six weeks ending the 27t1Ps
the quantity sold. Those were•the facts which a tion distinct from the opinions entertained by any one else
and he liked it because it would be heneficial in his opinion 1830, 21,630 quarters of wheat had been sold in the London
alike to the British farmer and the British manufacturer— market ,
_. while, in the corresponding period of the year 1.640 (Bear, hear)—and he rejoiced to say that the majority of there had been sold 89,000 quarters. In the forn;e° pe •1,
those whom he had the honour to represent, were well enough the difference i.t• the average price in the London esiarket,rrnd
satisfied with the measure proposed by the Right Hon. Baronet. all the other marks is in England and Wales, was sls. 9d. in
It was necessary for the well-being not only of the agricul- the latter period there was a vatiatioa of from 6s. 8d; to
turists, but• Tor the whole interest of the United Empire that es. 6d. ; and there was, of course, a, Corresoonding difference
' the protection which now existed should be continued. The in the duty upon wheat during the two periods. He did
Hon. Member for Bolton (Dr. Bowring) in representing the think, therefore, that the Rioht Hun. Baronet succeeded
distress that existed in that town, had said that out of fifty in putting a stop to those speculations as he expected; and if'
mills in it thirty were unemployed. Now, certainly if they in- he also made the scale more extensive, by the introduction of
duced the public to believe that that which was bad enough 156 new towns ; and if the Excise officers did their duty bet-
was worse than it really was, they did those whom they repre- ter than the corn inspectors, these things, might be perfectly
sentcd a very great evil.—( The Right Hon. Baronet then pro- right in themselves ;it was not that point he was disputing, but
ceeded to read an extract from some statements of 31r. Ilus- he did think the Right Hon. Baronet need not be startled to
kisson, but in so low and indistinct a tone of voice as to be al- hear that the result of the three causes, taken together, would
most inaudible in the gallery. We understood it to be to the be to produce an increase of not less than ss. in the averages.
effect that Mr. Huskisson had been in favour of a protecting —( Hear, hear.) If that were the ease., it was obvious that
. duty on corn.) The Right Hon. Baronet went on to say, that the object of the whole scheme would he defeated, and, in
though that opinion was expressed by Air. Huskisson in 1814, some respects, they should be worse off under the treasure of
yet that, on an abstract question such as the present was, the the Right Hon. Bironet, than under the present system. Let
at
opini
another. on of so high aau
n thority was as go at an
none sit be supposed, for instance, that the price under the present
As for himself he would good at
he courstime a e
law was 775., the equivalent average under the scheme of the
lie had taken ; and lie trusted the opinions he had entertained, Right Honourable Baronet would be 725., and the duty
and the arguments he had advanced on the subject, would be under that scheme would be 225., while it would
confirmed by a large majority of that House. now be only 21s.—( Hear, hear.) He did not wish
Dr. Bt./WRING, amidst cries of " Order, order," "Hear, to weary the House with details; but if there was any truth in
hear," rose to explain.—lt was true that when he (Dr. Bow- the statements he had made they would derange the calcula-
ting) spoke of the state of Bolton, he had in reading from a lions of the Right Hon. Baronet, and with a nominal lower-
document which had been put into his hands, said that out of ing of the scale they would have, in reality, a higher duty.
fifty mills in that town thirty were unemployed. He came One of the evils that had been most complained of under the
down spontaneously the next day to the .House, and stated existing system was, the evil of the fluctuations of prices which
that the document from which he had read the previous evening it had caused. In former debates he had heard that defect
had been incorrectly copied—that a part occurring in the ori- much denied. Ile did not believe, however, that on the pre-
gitial document had been left out by the transcriber. ' The sent occasion any Hon. Gentleman had ventured in the same
expression in the original was, that thirty mills were unem- confident manner to deny that fluctuations had been caused by
'guyed, or working short time. The words, "or working short the fluctuations of the present system. It was no answer to
time," had been through mistake or carelessness omitted in say that there might be countries in the world where fluctua-
the copy from which he had read to the House. If the Right tions were still greater than here. Looking to the geographical
lion. Baronet had been in his place when he (Dr. llowring) position of England, and to her immense commercial advan-
had explained, he was certain that the expressions that had tages, he had no hesitation in saying, that under a sound system
fallen on the present occasion from the Right Hon. Gentleman of Corn-laws this country would be, he would not say the coun-
would not have been used. try of the lowest prices, but certainly it would be the country
Mr. LABOUCIIERE said, from the time thediscussion had of the steadiest prices in the world.—(Bear, hear.) That
lasted, Ise should have been content to have given a silent vote was an immense advantage which this country might enjoy ;
in favour of the motion of his Noble Friend (Lord John Res- and they could not afford to throw away that or any other ad-
sell), perfectly satisfied to rest that vote upon the arguments vantage whirls Providence had given them. The Right Hon.
which had beer, urged by the, Noble Lord and those who sat on Baronet quoted the instance of rye in Prussia, as a proof that
the same side of the House with him, if he (Mr. L,) did not in that country the food of the people had been subject to equal
feel and know well, that having lately occupiedan official eitua- fluctuations, or greater fluctuations, than those in the
tion under the Crown, connected with the commercial interests food of the people of this country. lie wondered that,
of the country, he-could hardly reconcile it to his sense of duty in calculating these fluctuations in rye in Prussia, it did
to those interests, not in a few words, at least to express his opi- not occur to the Right Hon. Baronet that they could be
Mons upon a questions which so deeply affected them. But he directly traced to the operation of our own Corn-laws. The
could assure the House that, in soliciting it fur that patience food of the people of Prussia consisted principally of rye, but
and indulgence whirls would alone enable him to express the it also consisted a good deal of wheat ; and was it. not obvious
views he entertained on the subject, he should endeavour to to every gentleman that this country, by drawing to it the
repay it by being as brief in his observations as possible. t wheat of Prussia, greatly raised the price of that
He had listened attentively to the speech of the Right , -wheat, which then became scarce, of course, and the
Honourable Baronet who had just sat down. He had I result was, that the price of rye • rose in the same
• long known the Right Hon. Baronet to be in that House the I ratio as the price of wheat? He should say that argument of
undlinehing advocate of high protection to the agriculturist, the Right lion. Baronet appeared to him to be a very strange
and lie (Mr. Labouchere), must say, that the speech of the onc. The Right Hon. Baronet also .aid that he confidently
Right lion. Baronet, as a Minister of the Crown, was in no • hoped that the alteration he proposed to introduce would prc-
degree at variance with those opinions whoa, he (Mr. La- vent the great fluctuations which had hitherto taken place in
bouchere) had heard from him in other places, speaking as a the prices of wheat in this country, because, as lie satfl, he
county Member. He (Mr. Labouchere) rejoiced that the found that a more gradual scale in the duty on barley, peas,
Bight lion. Baronet had given these, what they had not got beans, and other articles, had been produced, as he thought, by
hitherto, namely a clear definition of what the objeot and prin- fluctuations in the price of those articles. Now he (Mr. La-
ciple of the present Bill, were.—( Opposition cheers.) The bouchere) was surprised to hear the Right lion. Baronet
Right lion. Baronet had been perfectly plain and explicit on compare two things that did not admit of comparison. Wheat
that subject. He had told them that the object of the present was the principal food of this country, whereas those other
Bill was to keep up the value of the estates of the landed in- articles could he substituted the one for the other. Besides,
terest—( Opposition cheers)—to preserve that interest in their these were not objects of the same pressing necessity, and
station in society—(Renewed cheers from .the Opposition therefore :.t was impossible to compare those two things with
benches, answered by cheers from the Ministerial side)—and any degree of propriety with such an hrticle as wheat, for which
lest there should be any mistake on the subject, the Right Hon. there was a pressing and urgent demand, and which must
Baronet had repeated the observation a second time. (Sir E. be had at any price.—( Hear.) lie could not make out
K natehbull hero nodded assent to the sentiments attributed to that the new scheme of the Right Hon. Baronet would in any
him by the lit. Hon. Gent. who went on to say ) —He perceived material degree remove or mitigate those evils which a sad
it was acknowledged on the opposite of the House, that that experience had proved to attach to the present system of Corn.
was the • of the Right Hon. Baronet. Now he (Mr. laws.—(Hear, hear.)
meaning The Right non. Baronet laid great
Labouchere) conceived that the just object of a Corn Bill was stress upon the value , Americanarket and he ex-
of the m
of a totally different nature. He conceived that the object petted that advantages would be gained for our commerce with
which that House, representing all the various classes of this that country by
very wide field for this great empire, ought to have in view in passing a Corn Bill, was importance of nothaving a
as But did country
to
to arrange the subject on such v basis as should be for the go to for its supply of such an article
l. corn.
advantage of all classes of the community.—(Cheers.) Right Hon. Baronet really believe that his scale would enable
lie ought not to exclude she interests of so valuable a corn- us to deal with America for flour and wheat, any more than the
he could labour
his munity as the proprietors of the soil—(Hear, hear)—but still present scale could? He did not believe that
Isis first and paramount duty ought to be to regard and provide under any such delusion.—( Hear, hear.) He saw his Noble
for interests of incalculably greater importance than the in- Friend opposite, the Member for Liverpool (Lord Sandon),
terests of the mere proprietors of the soil—the interests of the I he (Mr.
shook his head, and seemed to contradict, that ; but .
immense majority of the people of this country.—(Great %diction
Labouchere) was surprised to receive a contr. , and
cheering.) That was what he ( Mr. Labouchere) held to be mire especially from his Noble Friend. He held in his
the just and legitimate object of a Corn Bill—(Cheers)—and hand a document of far more value than anything which
he must say he had much satisfaction in remembering that in he could say upon that subject, and to which he
those views he was supported by the Right Hon. Baronet's i called the • attention of the House with a conlidenee
high authority.—(Cheers.) He (Mr. Labouchere) was how- which he should not have ventured to put forward for any ob-
eyer sorry • to say that the principles advocated in some parts of servations of his own. He held in Isis hand a copy of a petition
the speech of the Right Hon. Baronet were very different from presented that night by his Noble Friend the Member for
the practical details of the measure he brought, forward-- Liverpool to the House, coming from no less important a bod,y
( Hear, hear)—but he (Mr. Labouchere) did agree with the than the merchants of Liverpool, engaged in the trade with
Right lion. Gentleman that it would be unbecoming and die- America. lie would not trouble the House by reading the
graceful to have it said that the object of this measure was to whole of it, but he was sure it would allow him to read some
keep up the rents of the aristocracy, or to enable one class of passages. It was a moderate and ably drawn up petition, and
the community to maintain their stations in society. lhe was sure that the House would agree with him, that the
He (31r. Labouchere) would be as sorry as any man could opinions of such Gentlemen upon the subject were entitled to
be to see the ruin and impoverishment of the landed great consideration. They said that " the United States of
proprietors of the country ; but still he meant that when they America laboured under great disadvantages as compared with
were legislating on a questions that concerned thu bread of the countries in Europe, in respect to the trade in wisest and
people, it was their duty to regard the interests of the people flour, Isy the working of the sliding scale of duties, which
'at largo—(Cheers.) Cheers. ) The Right lion. Baronet in' introduce operated to the prejudice of every country in proportion, and
ing this subject admitted that it was one of awful importance. that they were not in fact, but only nominally,
In truth, in a country such as England—in any country, a law placed upon a footing with
awmt more favouredfixed
ddutu natiohas.;
ode
affecting the food of the inhabitants must be a measure of the They went osnttotits,a}
roost materially' benefit the tradeybeiZeewe the
in importance. But there were many considerations, and flour would_
in the highly artificial. state
'• .. of society se this country, two enuntries e( Ch .ers from the opposition )--and would
o an extensions of the exports of our industry ; ohat the
' which rendered any law involving the supply of corn a question lead t .
of grave importance indeed.—(l 1 f . .it, hear.) Before he pro- domestic mann tures of the United States had greatly in..
ear, ,
direct creased during the last few years, which they in great part
ceeded with the details of this subject, he would briefly
II us .to the actual state of the country. attributed . , .
eour own restrictive policy.—( Bear, hear.) Ho
the attention of the o ...
regard to the supply of corn. The begged the particular attentions of the House to what followed t
arid to its prospects with:
Bight lioneurahte Baronet acknowledged that it was true, that _o That the whole subject of the American tariff was on the
in some years we were obliged to import large quantities of eve of being discussed in Congress, when it was to be feared
eons, but he added, that in favourable seasons we had enough that unless we relaxed our system relative measures
fair our own consumption. But the real question for the might be adopted."— (Ilear, hear.) These were the oat-
House was, to see whether, in an average of years, timents of that great and important body of British inewAants,
we had grown enough for the supply of the people.—(Hear, established in Liverpool who traded with America ; and highly
hear.) If it was true, that in bad years, we wanted corn as he valued the opinions and authority of his Noble Friend op.
from other countries, but that in good seasons we had enough 4 posite, he should confess that in a question of that kind he wag
and to spare, and could even export produce, there was much inclined to prefer the opinions of those British merchants.....
force in the reasoning of the Right Hon. Baronet; but the (Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman the President
contrary was the ease; in fact, we had an average deficiency of the Board of 'Trade had made use of an argument which he
of supply of corn of home growth, and throughout an average confessed he heard with sonic surprise. He had alluded to the
of years we had been importing a large and increasing quantity state of our commerce with Russia, and he said Russia was
of foreign corn. He would show the House returns to demon- threatening us with a tariff even more hostile than that which
strate this. He had in his hand a return of the now existed. The. Right Hon. Gentleman had used that u
average importations of foreign and colonial wheat imported an argument in favour of retaining the sliding scale of duty.
into this country during periods of ten years from the year Now he (Mr. Labouchere) confessed that he should have
1760 to the present time : drawn from the statement of the Right lion. Gentleman a
. From 1760 to 1770 we imported 94,000 quarters. perfectly different conclusion. He should have said, that if it
1770 to 1780' lll,OOO were true—as he believed it was true—that, mainly owing to
_. 1780 to 1790
1790 to 1800 • 470,000 retaliative measures against our manufactures, he found in
1800 to 18 It) ... ......... -
1810 to 1820 429,000 they adopted any system of Corn-laws the effect of whit*,
1820 to 1830 ... 504,000 would be to limit our trade with other nations. He should
ap
1830 to 1840 ..........• ••- 908,000 --that the way to meet that was to take care tq adopn
Thus showing from the experience of the past that the wants such a system as would include in our corn trade
of the people had outstripped the means of supply; and that all the countries of 'the worlds,—(Cries of " Hear, hear.")
we must consider ourselves as in a country destined to import If Russia refused to trade with us, the real and only way to
annually increased supplies of foreign corn.—(Cheers. ) If be independent of that. br any particular foreign country, with
we should go on increasing at the same rate, we should require regard to our supply of wheat, was, as he held, to extend our
during+ the next ten years 20,500,000 quarters of corn. rather commerce all over the world. That was the real and only
more than 2,000,000 quarters of wheat for the consumption source of security. They must have a corn trade, and the
of each year.—(Hear, hear.) Another important point only question was, how it should be conducted. If it were
leaning on this question was the state and prospect of the true, as the Right Here Gentleman asserted, that hereafter
corn trade between this country and Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) we should look to a diminished commercial intercourse with the
The Right Hon. Baronet conceived that Ireland was an Baltic States, how dangerous a policy were we pursuing by
inexhaustible granary to this country. But this was legislating upon the principle of a siding scale,whieh was
far from being the case. Looking to what had confessedly favourable to those States as regarded our corn
actually taken place, we should discover the remarkable fact, trade, but entirely unfavourable to the more distant sources et
that down to the year 1833, the imports of corn from Ireland our supply, and especially to the United States of America.
into this country, he spoke of wheat only, had been steadily in- These and other considerations, which he would not repeat, as
creasing. In that year, Ireland exported the largest quantity they had already been urged with so much ability by Hon.
we had ever received, being 844,000 quarters; since that time Gentlemen who spoke from his side of the House, had driven
it Thad been regularly diminishing, in the next year it was him to the conclusion that any Corn-law, founded essentiially oa
779,000 quarters; in 1835, 661,000 ; in 1836, 598,000; in the principle of the sliding scale, must be pernicious lasesimpcse
1837, 534,0(X) ;in 1838, 542,000; in 1839, 255,000 quarters; litic. Indeed, it would seem that wethewerceonidi pare
and in the two last years, notwithstanding the stimulus of high to adopt one law in respect of
ether commodities.
prices, it was in 1841, 218,000; and in 1840, 174,000 and that another law was applicable to all. . „
via
striking appearen to Vio.
quarters.—(Hear, hear.)that this They were called upon to believe that which He was happytot say.
TI • invested the ordinary prin.-
any dis distress in Ireland, late all ordin•er •
striking diminution did not proceed from . ' principles. this, that duties should hear a propone
it was on the contrary, connected with the growing prosperity ;irk of trade, wino; was
1,,
The effect of the sliding sod,
of that country--( Hear, hear, from Lord Stanley)—lreland tier' to the value of the article.
that the duty was high whewia 0
now consumed more wheat than she used to do; and it vs-as on the duty upon wheat
1 .'t was low when the article'-
oe,
also explained by the fact that since
the facilities of , article was of nn
fno value, am s
hear.) Of course the obvious -a of
communication by steam between the two countries, high vague,—( ilearl 'F' alt of