The Sun.
London, England, 1845-03-13 00:00:00

desired to be placed under schedule A, and the
same principle was adopted in all former
Bills. He was afraid, therefore, to swerve now from
this established rule, or he would have no objection
to accede to the amendment of the Hon. Member.

Mr. FOSTER said the Right Hon. Gentleman had
urged no argument against his proposition. He did
not wish to compel miners to claim under schedule
D, but to give them the option of doing so.
The clause was then read a second time.
Sir R. H. INGLIS did not call the attention of
her Majesty's Ministers to the motion he had upon
the paper with a view of obtaining their concession
now, but with a view to obtaining their sanction at
some future period to the principle he wished to lay
down. If the present were a time of war he would
not, for one moment, offer any obstacle to the con-
tinuation of the measure in its present form, but as
they were now at peace with nearly all the world,
this objection could not be raised. Every day's ex-
perience convinced him that the tax was not to be
limited to three years ; but, on the contrary, it
was likely to be made perpetual, and under
such circumstances he was desirous to modify
the measure in such a way as to make it more en-
durable. If, therefore, he could not carry his amend-
ment, he wished to put on record, for the guidance
of their successors, an expression of opinion that some
at least of the present House of Commons were
favourable to his proposal. He believed he had stated,
on a former occasion, that numerous instances had
come to his knowledge where clerks 2nd others, whose
incomes were 1501., had got their employers to reduce
their salaties, t enable them to evade payment of the
income-tax. By this means a man, whose salary was
1501. was reduced to 149/., this saved 31. 10s. a year,
He wished, therefore, to save his fellow-countrymen
from this temptation to commit fraud, as well as from
suffering actual distress, which had in some cases re-
sulted from the tax. They were told that the revenue
would suffer a loss of one million sterling, if the
House adopted his proposition. He conceived this
sum was considerably- overstated, but in order to
meet this objection, he had thought it advisable
to modify the proposition of which he had
given notice, by limiting its operation to those
classes who were peculiarly affected by the pre-
sent tax. Instead, therefore, of the notice which
stood on the printed paper, he wished to substitute the
following:—" Provided always that the said rates
and duties shall not be assessed or taken upon any in-
come whatever, excepting with respect to the sum by
which such income shall exceed 1501." Now this
would meet many cases where the tax pressed with
severity. For instance, there were in this country
5,489 benefices, varying from 1501. to 5001., who
would derive considerable benefit from the introduc-
tion of such a prorision.—(Hear, hear.) lie knew
what the result of a division would be, but to avoid
being taunted by any future Chancellor of the Exche-
quer that the measure in its present form had been
fully sanctioned by the House, he felt called upon to
put it to the vote.—(llear.)
Mr. SPOONER seconded the amendment.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
the question involved a general principle which could
not be settled by the operation of the tax upon one
particular class. He thought he should be able to
show his Hon. Friend that his proposition was im
practicable, and that it would not remove the present
facilities for evading the tax. His Hon. Friend said a
clerk who had 1501. a year could get his employer
to reduce l.is salary to 1491., and thus evade
the tax. But would his Ilonourable Friend's
amendment remove this objection? Could not
a man who had an income of 5001. reduce it to
499/. ?—(Hear, hear.) Surely, then, the amendment
was objectionable in this particular. But his Hon.
Friend's proposition was open to other objections.
A man might have an income from land, amounting
to 500/. in one part of the country, and an interest
to the same amount in some railway company in
another part of the country, and thus he would have
an opportunity of availing himself of his Hon.
Friend's amendment in two instances. He might
claim to deduct 1501. from his 5001. arising out of
land in Yorkshire, and claim the same exemption on
his railway interest in Sussex.—(Hear.) Unless,
therefore, they introduced some system of combined
examination to meet these particular cases, the amend-
ment would produce no good, and for this reason it
was his duty to resist the proposition.
After a few words from Sir W. CLAY,
The House divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment 25
Against it
Majority against the amendment —34
On the re-admission of strangers to the gallery, we
found

Sir W. CLAY addressing the House. He said,
that in all direct taxation there was much rudeness,
roughness, and unpleasantness mixed up. He gave
the Right Hon. Baronet credit for showing good rea-
sons against the several amendments that had been
proposed, inasmuch as they would all be attended with
hardship and inequality. But the Right lion. Baro
net's answers proved that hardship and inequality were
inseparable from the tax. There were many theore-
tical arguments in favour of direct taxation ; but
there was this advantage in indirect taxation, that it
left (very man to a certain degree the master of his
taxation. All indirect taxation pressed upon expenses,
and many of the assessed taxes pressed wholly on
luxuries. But the income-tax was a tax upon
prudence ; and he did not agree with the saying that
the miser was the fittest person to be taxed. The
miser was the greatest benefactor of society.—(A
laugh.) It was the miser that carried out all your
great improvements.—(Oh, oh, and laughter.) The
man who kept a pack of fox hounds was no bene-
factor of the community. The man si ho benefited
society was he that did not spend his money in
I luxury, but spared it, and applied his savings to
public improvement% (Cries of " Oh, oh," and
" That is not a miser.") He (Mr. Clay) did not
wish the tax to be extended to Ireland, but all the
arguments against that extension applied to the im-
position of the tax in this country. He would not
detain the House by offering unavailing opposition,
but he could not allow the Bill to pass without enter-
ing his protest against it.
Sir R. PEEL thanked the Hon. Gentleman for the
tone in which he had expressed his opinions, and for
not persisting in an unavailing opposition, although
the Hon. Gentleman had given the Bill his parting
malediction.—(A laugh.) He did not think it was
a proper time, at this stage of the Bill, to enter
into the question of direct and indirect. taxa-
tion. He would only say that much must depend
upon the circumstances of the country to be taxed.
But he must say that if there were in any country
taxes which pressed upon industry, and at the same
time a palpable tendency to accumulate, then pro-
perty might be directly taxed.—(Hear, hear.) But
in a country like the United States, where there was
but little accumulation, he thought it might be well
to adhere to indirect taxation. He must know all the
circumstances of a country before he could give an
opinion. Put of this he was convinced, that if a tax
on property were to be imposed, it should be on
income, and not upon accumulated capital. Nothing
could be more dangerous than to tax accumulated
capital.—(Hear, hear.) It would be a check to that
feeling which led men to endure present toil for the
sake of future serenity and enjoyment; and he be-
lieved there was great truth in what Dr. Johnson said,
that a man could not be more innocently employed
than in accumulating money.—(A laugh.) Such a
tax would derange accumulation, and tend to transfer
capital to other countries. At the same time he
would confess that he thought the greatest check to
the improvident application of the income-tax was the
inequality of its operation.—(Hear, hear.) A tax
on accumulation would not easily be made
productive, as capital would be transferred to other
countries. He was not now going into the question
as to fixed incomes and floating incomes.—(Hear.)
Some Gentlemen had said that they could show how
he could raise three or four millions. Very well.
But let them be upon those (the Treasury) benches,
and let him see how they would propose their taxes—
(Laughter.) Other gentlemen asked why was not
the tax extended to Ireland? But why not extend
other taxes to Ireland? Why not extend the soap-
tax, for the first time, to that part of the kingdom,
where it was most destriale to encourage the use of
soap.—( Laughter.) They were making a great, and,
he would say, a bold experiment in their fiscal
system, and the fact was that the country
was of opinion that the present was a time
when the property of manufacturers, and the condi-
tion of the working-classes rendered the experiment
desirable and practicable.—(Hear, hear.) Those
upon whom the income-tax pressed were willing to
bear the burthen fur the sake of an experiment, hav-
ing for its object to better the condition of those
below them, as it was the earnest desire of the
affluent classes to do.—Hear, hear.) Their objec-
tion to the tax was as great as could be, and the
reason of their acquiescence was an honour to them
and to the country. Ile (Sir Robert Peel) would
not contemplate the discussion which was likely to
arise when the renewal of the tax came again before
the House.—(A laugh.) The Ilouse would not ex-
pect him to say now what course be might take upon
that future occasion. lie had stated already the pre-
parations which were going on in the glass trade.—
(Hear.) Suppose, then, the thousands who were now
unemployed— and other thousands—should find em-
ployment ? Suppose the glass manufacture of this
country should come into competition with Belgium
ground a
tos
tryit nowfo
and Bohemia—might not the couistry, on the same
thacergut'he applicatione,!eedin the o
income
c-ttrixa,xab-e
inclined
tion, it not exactly in this shape Was it therefore
to be expected that he should now pledge himself to
the repeal of the tax in three years ?—and he said
this without Relying any reserve.—(Hear hear.)
The affluent classes in this country willingly acqui-
esced in the tax, for the sake of an experiment which
had for its object the relief of those who most stood
in need of it--(hear, hear)--and be could not say

what their feeling might be at the end of the term,
and upon the issue of the experiment.
Mr. HAWES did not deny the claims of the
poorer classes to be relieved ; but the Right Hon.
Baronet had not done anything to relieve them from
the burdens that were most felt by them. The Hon.
Baronet had not taken off the taxes upon consump-
tion, nor those which interrupted trade, and made
subsistence difficult. He was not obliged to vote
for the income-tax, because it rendered the Minister
to be independent of other sources of revenue, and able
to keep up the fiscal system that supported monopoly.
He thought that they ought not to submit to the in-
come-tax till the burdens on the industry of the
country were removed, and till the indirect taxation
‘,‘ as placed on a sound basis. With regard to the
administration of the tax he had heard with great
pleasure what had fallen from the Right Hon. Baronet
(Sir R. Peel) and the Right Hon. the Chancellor of
the Exchequer on that subject, but believing that the
tax was unjust, he could not—though he would not
divide the House again upon it—sit down without
joining his Hon. Friend in giving it a parting male-
diction.

Mr. J. S. WORTLEY said that the argument of
the lion. Member for Lambeth was, that he would
wish to see the Minister in difficulty that he might be
Vompelled to adopt certain measures, forgetting that
when a Minister was in difficulties he had recourse to
an increase, and not to a diminution of taxation. His
Right Hon. Friend had put the grounds of the tax on
a proper foundation. The people of the country had
not submitted to the tax so patiently from any pre-
ference of direct over indirect taxation, but because
they saw that it enabled the Right Hon. Baronet to
make a great experiment with regard to the taxes
levied on the people of the country, and afforded him
a prospect of lightening the burdens which fell on the
more indigent classes of the community.
Mr. HAWES explained.
Mr. WARD said it appeared to him rather sur-
prising that no person was going to divide the House,
notwithstanding all that had been urged against this
tax.—(Hear, hear.) Understanding that the Hon.
Member for Lambeth intended to divide the House on
the present occasion, he came down to vote against
him, although he did not expect to see the tax done
away with, nor would he entertain any expectation of
the kind when his Hon. Friend became Chancellor of
the Exchequer.—(Cheers and laughter.) His Hon.
Friend talked of just taxation, but where were the
elements of just taxation to be found ? He (Mr.
Ward) acted with a large body in the country, who
were known under the name of "Free-traders," and
he recognised a broad riistinction between free trade
principles and those on which the Government
acted, but he could see nothing but a question of
degree and not of principle between the present Chan-
cellor of the_Exchequer and the would-be Chancellor.
—(Cheers and laughter.) He would vote with as
great cheerfulness as ever he did with his Hon.
Friend, if they recognised the principles which they
seemed to like but which they did not espouse.—
(Cheers.) Ile did not think there was more to be
gained on one side than the other.—(Hear, hear.) It
was a question of ,'egree between the present Go-
vernment and the future Government, but there was
this difference, that the Right Hon. Gentleman op-
posite (Sir Robert Peel) always did what he said,
but his lion. Friend near him said a great deal more
but did nothing.—(Ministerial cheers.) They had
plenty of pretty schemes from them, but they never
ent beyond schemes.—Loud Cheers.) They found
that the Right Hon Baronet was able to carry his
measures by a happy combination of circumstances,
and that was a happy circumstance for the country.
He had heard complaints in that house of the
budget of the Right lion. Gentleman, but he did not
think it was a fair criterion to apply to that measure
that a man gained but 3d. in his fustian or 2d. in
his sugar.— (Hear.) He looked to the immense em-
ployment it would give at home by increasing the ex-
port trade, and enabling them to compete with
foreigners in other countries.—(Cheers.) fie believed
that their trade would be increased 25i millions in
consequence of taking off the duty on the raw mate
' rial.—(l-lear, and I.lughter.) And, notwithstanding
all the taunts that had been thrown against him and
those with whom he acted, he was not agiamrd to ex-
press himself in favour of the measure of the Right
Hon. Baronet, and he had come down to the House
that evening for the purpose of recording his vote in
favour of the income-tax —(Cheers.)
Mr. CURTEIS said, that if he did not divide the
House on the present occasion, it was because having
recorded his opinion against the measure, and having
already divided the House twice upon it, he thought
it would be pertinacious on his part, if he were to set
up his own opinion against the declared conviction of
the House.—(hear, hear.) His objection to the tax
was not that it was a direct tax, but that it was an
inquisitorial tax. He was sorry to see that they had
made such a bad fight against the income-tax. The
Noble Lord the Member for London, under whose
leadership he had acted for many years, and
for whom he had the greatestrespect, had, be regretted
to say, only put one vote on record against the tax—
(Hear, hear)—on the motion of the lion. Member for
Liskeard (Mr. Buller.) He was sorry the Noble
Lord had not made a better stand against it. For
himself, he gave every possible malediction that could
be given to the tax.—(Laughter.)
Mr. DARBY could not agree with the argument
of the Hon. Member for Lambeth, for the Hon. Gen-
tleman's argument was, that all the labouring capital
of the country should be displaced for the purpose of
rendering things cheap ; forgetting that if things were
cheap and labour displaced the people would not have
the means of buying those cheap things.
Sir C. NAPIER said he rose for the purpose of
remarking on one great injustice of the income-tax.
It appeared that while all the civil officers in Ireland,
who were well paid, were exempt from the income-
tax, the officers of the army and navy, who were most
inadequately paid, were obliged to pay the tax. Now
that was most unjust. He knew the Right Hon.
Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer would
reply that their navy all over the world paid the tax,
but he begged to remind him that the Governors of
their colonies also paid it ; and if that were so, where
was the justice in exempting the Lord Lieutenant of
Ireland, and the other high civil functionaries there,
from the payment of the tax. He hoped the Right
Hon. Gentleman would give some explanation on that
head.

Mr. TRE LAWNY supported the motion, and after
a short discussion, in which the CHANCELLOR of
the EXCHEQUER joined, the Bill passed.
The Sugar Duties Bill was read a second time,
after a short discussion, and ordered to be committed
on Friday.
The Customs Export Duties Bill was also read
a second time and ordered to be committed.

On the proposition that the Justices' Clerks and
Clerks of the Peace Bill be read a second time,

Mr. T. EGERTON objected to the Bill.
General JOHNSTONE supported the Bill.
DARI3Y hoped, if the Bill passed, the ma-
chinery would be less complicated than that now pro.
posed. He was fearful that the expense to the public
would be increased by the Bill.
Mr. BROTH ERTON supported the Bill.
After some observations from Mr. DlcxErtsort and
Mr. HENLEY,
Sir J. GRAHAM said he had undertaken this
measure from a sincere desire to promote the better
administration of justice, and he was quite ready to
listen to any suggestions fiom Gentlemen possessing
practical experience on that subject. Many of the
objections to the measure applied rather to the details
than to the principle. The principle was that, upon
the whole, justice would be better administered by
public servants receiving salaries for the duties
which they performed ; the principle was that, with
reference to the whole body of the country, whose
interests were involved, salaries were preferable to
fees. He believed, also, that in the end economy
would be promoted by the measure under considera-
tion. The Hon. Member for Cheshire said that
if the Bill passed, enormous salaries would be granted
by magistrates in quarter sessions.
Mr. T. EGERTON said his observation was, that
the magistrates would he obliged to pay large salaries
in order to obtain efficient officers.
Sir J. GRAHAM said he could conceive no trust
more sacred than that vested in magistrates by this
Bill, and he felt persuaded that no prodigal salaries
would be awarded. It was objected that magistrates'
clerks were unknown to the law. They were not un-
known to those who had to pay the fees.—(Hear.)
Many Hon. Members had said that clerks had no
power to prosecute ; he had thought it better that, on
the whole, the matter should be left open to discus-
sion. With respect to clerks of the peace now exist-
ing as such, he proposed to give them compensation
for any loss which they might sustain, calculated on
their receipt for the last twenty years. lie had
no doubt but under this Bill the services
of eminent persons would be obtained at comparatively
moderate salaries. He proposed to leave in the
hands of the magistrates power in certain cases to
remit the fees. One great object of the Bill was to
take precautions against the appointment of inferior
persons. He had known many cases in which per-
sons who were not qualified had held the office; and
he wi,hed to prevent a recurrence of that evil. With
respect to uniformity of fees, he thought the interests
of those who sought justice, whether in the superior
or the inferior courts, required that for the same'
judicial act in this country persons should
pay the same—and that a moderate price—
(Hear, hear)—and they could only secure uni-
formity in the mode proposed by this Bill.
On the present occasion he wished the House to con-
sent to the second reading, and the details of the
measure might he considered in Committee. The
Bill provided that proper legal assistance should be
given to prisoners, and that this assistance should be
professional ; that the salaries should be fixed by the
magistrates throughout England, and that this salary
should be sufficient to command this assistance. The
Secretary of State would be bound to fix an equal
rate of fees throughout England, and he believed the