The Sun.
London, England, 1818-02-12 00:00:00

EMPLOYMENT OF SPIES.

Mr. FAZAKERLY rose, pursuant to his motion,
to move that instructions be given to the Secret
Committee now sitting, diluting an inquiry to be
made %vile( her mcaillres had been taken to bring
to justice the persons concerned in exciting riots
in different parts of the country. The employ-
ment of persons who bad excited riots had been
mentioned in rations petitions preselted to the
House—had been proved by some facts which'
came out during the trials of persons concerned in
those riots, and was expressly noticed in the Re•
port of the Secret Committee of the 20th of June
last. As he had not himself sufficient local infor-
mation of the eircumstanc•zs node,- which those
riots had been excited, he would s4tisfy himself
with founding his motion on that passage of the
Report which he had mentioned. The gaols had
been fillet! with State Prisoners wider novel cir-
CitfliStallCCS, and the proceedings of Goveroment
had afforded the contrast of the strongest and the
weakest measures, during which time tolorit:nme
versons bad been confined with more than usual
teverity ; situ the ‘ery last step hat! been a 1-tter
ct paternal admonition :or the good management

of the young Man who was discharged. When
the jails had been crowded in this manner hp tire
exertions of spies and informers, was' it fair or
just that nothing should he 'brought against the
persons detained ? Was it decent, or airy thing
like au impartial administration of justice, when
there did‘not appersr tit be the slightekt trace of
suspicion against tliote persons? He.,-Ati;lsychow-
eter,.to puteirititaiitst .expressing- any opinion
generally with regard to the employment of spies,
though it was most unfortunate that public vices
ouly-be detected by private treachery. But
while such persons were employed; the greatest
cantirin-should'be exercised frefOre the iuforara-
thin they furnished was acted upon. -He should
'trouble 'the House no forther; the whole object of
Isis notion wns-merely to ask that these persons
who had exceeded their instructions should •be
detected and 'brought to justice. He should there-
fore move, " That it be an instruction to the
Committee of Secrecy to inquire whether any and
what measures had been taken to detect and [sting
to justice those persons described in the Report
of the Bth of June, who may, by their language
and conduct, have encouraged those designs of
which it was intended they should he only the in-
strument 5 of detection."
The qiiteitimn being put,
• Mr. B. BATHURST dcelared that nothing could
he more correct and ingenuous than the manner
lu which the Hon. Gentleman had expressed
hitieSelf. If he understood the !notion, it was not
for aitY, general' inquiry, but for authorizitig the
Coritinittt.e .to adopt a precise and specific line
of condutt. But they were armed at present with
sufficient poWer. The Hon. Gentleman, however,
wanted to know whether Government had taken
any measures to 'punish certain persons that had
acted a particular part in the finieliting of disturb-
ances. This assumed a proposition that he
begged in the first instance to deny. It assumed
that a certain crime bad been committed ; for to
ask for punishment without it was premature.—
The Right Hots. Gentleman here read the con-
cludingpaSsages of the 2rl Report of last year,
which stated, that although the Committee
had• 3 een'retison to apprehend that the language
and conduct of sonic persons might have had the
effect of encouraeing the designs of the disaffect-
ed, it was perfectly clear that before soch tn.
couragetnent could have been given there wet e
signs of simultaneous rising in various parts of the
country," Ste. From this statement he argued, at
considerable length, that it was the bounden duty
of Government to avail themselves of all the hi-
formation that had been put hito their hands, and
to make such detections as the nature of that in-
formation, and the consequent employment of
such persons, warranted.' At present he would
say that no such case existed as !hat intimated in
the motion. The moineot it was found -out that
'Oliver was in Yorkshire, the course taken by the
disaffected was, to say that he was the person
who had otgaidzed and concerted the insurrections.
The real state of the transaction Was, that by
professing to be a deputy from London, and by
Pretending • to look to London for support, and
saying all was right there,
.he might hold out eit-
eritira gement. Bet that those designs had long 'Dern
plan tied., and had been adjourned front time to t hue.
was a fact kmiwo long before this person !wide
his appearance. As to the question whether the
Committee should be directed to inquire into those
circumstances, he would say that •Government
knew of no misconduct on the nart of this per-
son in the way that had been stated (Hear, hear,
hear ; and there was no reason to believe that •
he had taken any part in the explosions that had
°centred. • His instructions were to gain iutortna- •
lion for Government, and to communicate what
he learned front time. to time to the neighbouring
Magistrates, at every place to which he went.—
Hie. having stated that there were 70,000 men,
was the inmost point iu which he was incorrect.
It was accident 'entirely that brought him into
the country ; be was not empowered to go
amongst those persons, but being amongst
lie thought it right to state what lie saw and
learnt ; and be would nut it to Geotiemen to say
how otherwise be could have acted. Except as
tar as related to Ilia' having been thus engaged, his
life arid character were untainted by anybody ;
and When persons were brought forward against
him, he (Mr. B.) only hoped their own charac-
ters might stand as fair, and that they might not
be (wool to be connected with any of those per.;
sons charged with Luddism or other acts of out-
rage. It was the natural artifice of the persons
he had exposed to turn round upon him, and say,
" You have detected us ; now we will expose
you." The Right Honourable Gentleman pro-
ceeded to argue on the detections that had taken

place of the intended conspiracies, which he at
tributed to the ob'servations of Oliver and siniiia
persons, and insisted that front all that had trans

hired, there were strong proofs of all that had
been stated in the Report. The fact was, that
()liver was not at Derby, or the place where the
insurrection broke out, and therefore it wens right
to assume- that the whole plan of the conspi-
racy was matured before he could have given
it any encouragement. The number of thirty
or forty persons only who were committed to jail
could nut be an overcharge of severity on Govern-
ment, when so lIIBIIV were concerned as leaders.

lie denkd that any thing of consequence arose
to individuals from this man's discoveries, as not
a single person had been taken up from his in-
formation. The declaration of Brandreth in his
last moments, respecting Oliver, was totally un-
founded.—(Mr. Fazakerley here explained, that
he haul made no allusion to the trials at Derby).
The Hon. Gentleman then could see nothing in

the Second Report of the Committee on which to
rest his opinion, as that Report was made long
after the trials in London had been concluded,
and the persons acquitted, so that it related solely
to the country. The person to whom Brandreth
stated that Oliver was with him 'at Peorridge
told him he knew -better, for that Oliver was at
that very time in Yorkshire. After which ,Bran-
dreth never mentioned his name. Ott the whole,
the Right Honourable Gentleman contended,

I►at there was no ground for the motion, and
mthing made out to induce the House to agree
0 it.

Lord ?L•uro;; could not agree with the Hight
Honourable Gcnticiva►► that no bad COl4Sc(plences
arose out of the mission ut tt►is pert..un. 't t►is

•
- • ,--
per'sOn acted in a Piericular character ; on his
ittfornvitioo the proceedings were to rest, and on
which he verily believt.el .they di./1 turn. The Noble
Lind read an se:site:let Ireiii RepOrt of the COui-
ee of the nfilise of Lords lak Ses.,ion, slat iii
"" that Afelitingfi thethioettected avers: loolsiog,jo
the Met rtypollsi wit ai iii the)arts of !lie country
...tilloded that..,i)ie. ittntreetioti see Med-to have
been confined." • thui -marked the
Tnexion in the country.-; and by whOtit was this
connexion kept up Why; by persons sent down
by the Secretary ot Stiite and the greatest anxiety
was shown by the Megiit6tri in certain places to
lay hold or the London Delegiite; a 2 the person
most likely to blow the disorderinto n haute. Ile
could not therefore in iiti conscience believe but
that many of the mischiefs arose froth Suidi inter-
position ; although did not at till rely On the
iestinomy of the dying person. lie tlii.itight inch
individuals had little, eight to complain that liJiad
betto asserted iu the House of Commons they were
men capable of being involved in such transactions:
On the Contrary, he believed the charges againi,i,
Oliver were made ,by persons who were no more
concerned io those .transactions than himself
(Lord Milton.) To say that no persons had been
taken tip through Oliver's information was only
like saying that the mitiows had not been made
oil( from his deposition before the Magistrate, but
it was too flinch to say that. nothing was done in
consequence of the information derived from him,
because it was from this they were able to cause
persons to he apprehended. The time, however,
would come, when an inquiry must. be made : but
he wished one point to be atteoded to, which was,
that at Nottingham, where they were ready to
assassinate this man, no rising. took place, to (tile
at ()thee parts, where lie was tuna fide believed to
he, as in Detbysliire and Yorkshire, they did break
out.—Dlr. Bathurst here explained that lie had
said Ulises., thoogli iu Dorhyshire, was not at the
places where the disturbances occurredl—The
Noble 1.,,r,1 then said, his mouth should be sealed
out this part of the subject for the present ; but
lie thought the House..wonld not do its duty it it
did not institute a substautiai ingility into the con-
duct of those persons, as well .as of those who
employed them. It was a little too much to hear
the conduct and character of such persons as
Oiiver held up with sodittle discritninatioo. The
Gentlemen opposite did not seem to be aware
the tzelietal indignation will) which they, were re-
e„erded. It would surely be thought. they Jmast
have some other mot i ves for endeavottriOg to
excite alarm to the extent to which they
bad ; and imprudent as had -been their conduct,
br thotight they were not sorry to find themselves
in such a situation. The Noble •I,ord concluded
with deelarhig, diet, in the Committee to which he
had been appointed ihe shOuld discharge his duty
as lie had dime before, from an imperious sense
That he owed his attendance to the, commands of
the llonse ; but as
,they had in some respects.hn-
posed a•borth,o on. him, he should feel grateful it
they would alleviate that binehen in sonic. degree,
by adopting tlte,motion of his Hon..Frientl.
Mr. C. GiteNT, jun. thought the Noble Lord
had not given 311 Answer to the .oh,,,,..rvirstiotis of
the Right Hon. Gentleman below hitlL ,It was
quire tinnecessaiy to give those insfructions to the
Comfeittee, because they were as competent to re-
cur to the Snhittt as before. It was completely'a
novel subject to sends:lel' instructions to a Secret
Committee of that House. But if they went so far
beck, and took the ground of the Noble Lord, it
became a prima facia. • case to see whether the
House coeld find enoueli of delinquency on the
part of Government to authorise this step. Never
had public disturbances occurred in which parties
bad not chatged Government with being the
au-
thors of the.n. Front 1793 to 1801, these charges
were perpetually reiterated, yet it hid never been
proposed to m ,ke them a subject for the consi-
deration of a Secret Committee. Nothing what-
ever had heel] proved with respect to those iusti-
gations of which so much had been heard, and
consetriefrly there was no ground for any special
iustructions to the Committee. There had been
no pi 00l that Oliver had been the instigator of
either of the insurrections, as they were both
arranged prior to his intercourse with any of the
people. If his interference could have been
proved, it was astonishing that the Learned Coun-
sel who so ably defended the prisoners at Derby,
did not avail himself of Oliver's presence, by
bringing him tip front the place where he stopped.
It was the only pound on which the case ot his
clients could have stood ; and he would ask any
men whether, if a British Jury could have found
them guilty under such circumstances, they would
not have recommended them to mercy ? Alluding
to Braodreth's declaration, he contended that no
weight could be placed on it, and argued, that the
fact of Oliver not having been called on the trials,
was the strongest proof of his interference not
being a fact. Unless, therefore, an extraordinary
Case of delinquency could be made out, to cause
so novel a deviation from the tilnal course, lie
should eive his opposition to the motion.
Mr. Bea awe did not think the House or the
Country could look for any thing from that Com-
mittee, named as it was by Ministers, for the
purpose of defending themselves. He was, hots'-
ever, induced to support the niodon, because it
would put to the testa case which he should es-
that the Committee, 'as was said by en
Hon. Friend below httn, %vas one of the grossest
juggles that was ever played off. They had as.
scudded at two Committees already, in which the
case of the Crown was laid before them ; but the
case of the people was w i;hdrawn. Bit all that
lie asked was, that the cause of the people
should be heard. Jas the midst of their distresses
they had been visited by one of the gr'eatest plagues
that coeld fall upon them, namely,, that the Go-
vernment titer might to protect them had sent
among them persoos to tit ice thenl to deSper.ltio'n.
With respect to spies generally, he should not
stop to give any opinioo as to tile einp;oynielit or
non-einployntent (,f than. lc knew how difii-
cult it was 10 dime 1.1 nice line between those tt ho
looked for reward through the information they
gave, and thee,e who thought they weie perform-
iog a public duty by such condect. But Inc lunew
dint the person eteployed by Governinerit had done
acts that he could nut think ct without shame, or
:peak of without itidignati end disgust. it was
I,IIOWo that ever since 1812 soul) persons had kept
that part a ILC country thet was the scene of the

. • ••: /toe
late Itis'ut'i.ect:ons in the greateet alarns.
was aeaptain of the gang of epics ivho had laretea
ptittlishe'd bookupOit In't; Sobiect.
C pt , and ira'd receiVed hi: in'str"ri
tionS m troth a gell.:t now Do ()014,, anti
whom theeeror'e Sli”tati say 11,11lhillg:
were to get it monber.of Hs It, "
3.
that tieke sWorit iri Ihe .must' saerld 11)3t►
.
ner to act as spies, ;tot! to bind the Poor dslui,
people by a sime ila oath, never direcover
nature of their. proCeedings; and this, 011 .f
br
part of the spies, tOr the sole purpose .of vioiat'"F
their trash. by eeposie.g had ep9.APPC' •
He did hot set hiutselt up as a ritCiiliAr mote list i.
but lie should cousider the religion he professed II
he false and disgraceful, if he were thus to
lert
his countenance to such infamous acts, 1),), whic
laws, And 'me, were toter
ender die pretence of supporting Oovernmear•--7
With re.speet to Oliver, however, he was r-
pared to meet the charge of the Right Hon. "e°-
!lemon who had so ardently supported his L."'
racter, and the House should be the witness be.'
tweet-I:them ; and when they had heard the.cske:
lie Wmild say they dare not refuse giving tli:ls‘-
instructions to the Committee. There Was
lt
Castles,whose evidence was believed by the juttl4'*
and the Attorney-Genet al, but, thank God, disb.e.re;
reeved by theistry. This favoured witness, this
of a brothel; andVender of forged notes, it) (),Etl
that he might loOk better than he was, bad pee'`
clothed ,by a Police Slagisuate. This sheavedl;
care, and atteuthot that Government thought 141,:
per to pay to such. person.;. But as to Olive'''.
could tell the Right um,. Gen-del:tau
that so tar from his beirt.g of a pure and nos!")(7‘1
character, he was branded with infants.„ll'.
begun his career by one of those crimes that .e..
lows like him genetally cotton' itted to
themselves in life—by a- fraud on a, defeneelc''
woman. Ile had, like his associate, 'Castle6;
committed the et hue of big my. There We:,
other parts of his chat acter which; When tht):4'
Gentlemen should think fit to put hit» in the bq o
as a witness, he would show were so base,
owed to the mercy of others the life that beel.l°",e;';
But he would say no 'more on this point tg
Hon. Gentleman note. The Hon.
then went into' deta of his history as a
He began by stating that he °Weil his first i'lt"(
If
duct ion to the public by getting
with a small society of respectable. pt (sob's
who met to obtain a Cons`titutionai Ref"ru.',
iu Parliatnent ; that on the 2,-Ith of April last 11:.
started front London under a feigned name, 5e
Mr. Pendril at Liverpool ; that he got- acquai"f;
ell with a person of the nuts of Mitchell, vv"iu
troduced him to a friend at Bath, named Jolli
and it was. proposed that a few individuals sho".
meet him ao a sort of general deieg.ate for dis""s';
IN; the subj
cc( of Parliamentary Reform.' ll°
he stated he wks going toenake the tOnr el DedPl,;
Nottioghion, &c, to get Petitions. lie told thel'd
their .proceedings wet e too tame ; that lie 14"
been engaged with Despard, and had effected 'l.!`i
escape of Thiatlewood and young Watson,
furnished them with money. lie ceee left Live::
pool, and by a sort of juggle his conipaoitm
arrested. lie used to tell the persoos lie i"fit'
that it was his Opinion, and that of iris r"c:,,
that it was of no use petitioniniz, and that •"''•,„
most resort to physical force ; but ha foon:1 the'
objected to any violent proceedingee The MO•`i
ing on the stl, of M v tval mvcidttotAi, for "V't
himself formed it ; and when he Came, fo'"
the delegates, ten in ntimbee, from liirmlot-11"°:
Sheffield, Leeds, Wakefield, &c. &c. god those
poor ignorant individuals naturally considered lir:
as a superior nom. He told then) to look fof
sistence from London, and that it was nrce,s6rf
to tutu opt with all the arms they could cOlcct"
He then told them to take a card, andviii"
the number of persons they thought would 17 ).1
out, and sign it with their names, and he (cif'
firtnly believed that it was from one of these "II':
that the Committee formed their opinion I'
70,000 men %vete ready to rise in insurreetio;le"--.
All these facts there. were person; lcatly to Pri"..o
on oath. In a few days afterwards he ryas in
London, and went to visit Mitchell in Cohlh'rl:
fields, where he was confioed it) the house of
Governor, and watched by spies, to sce if
could draw any thing from him. lie here
posed to Mitchell to write to his friends
North, to see if lie could induce them It, make '',ll
appeal to arms ; but Mitchell refused, awl said'
" I believe you are a traitor, and I beg you ‘",,
quit my presence, and never let me see you more'
The next time he was heard of was at Drs-bYl'
though the Right Hon. Genthirnan denied he
been there.—(Alr. B. Bathurst explained, that
had not denied , his having been at Derby, bat I'3-
said he was not at the place where the instill"-
Lion broke out.)—He would now read a St'",:
went, of which, though it was not an affidavit,
contents might be relied on. The elo," Gentle'
than then proceeded to read a variety of pat tior"
lie; resp,cting the conduct of Oliver when at th,e
Talbot inn. Oliver told those to whom he
dressed himself, that all legal means had been
tried already without effect, and the people 19
Londe') were resolved to petition no more.
was now necessary to have recourse to the oolY
means left—physical force. The Londoners, ll°
said, only waited for the country petiole 11
join them to begin. When told they wort)"
y
not come int a his 114 reply was, „ ea
are utitaken there. Half the country, is ready
to rise already—at Birmingham, Shelliel"'
Leeds, and ail the manufacturing towns, the
People were ready—at Leeds they were almost
armed, and could with difficulty be kept doyen. 'm
London there were 70,000 men ready to l'cL
ate Midst the Government; he himself could rai!
50,000 ; Wooler, who Was an excellent
was to print the Proclamation Of the Insurget't"
and lie (Oliver) was to write them." He
describer) the route he proposed to take, io
to see that all the peuele in the places he '"
mentioned were ready to co-operate with t
Londoners. One matt, a lit icklaver, he perstiadeif
to go to Birmingham, to make observatiot's oil
what was spas,iug ; and es the man hail not
shillings iu the world to cart}, hit» there, Oliver:
53ili lie' would write a letter tor him to carry t" "
Getttletnati in that place who would give
Plenty of money. Stich a letter be accoldiottki
wrote ; bur the poor wan for whom it was ti Fit
alarmed et seeing a number of persons taken q

rj°

{ 111 w~'

:coo.

the
ord r
L 01

,rs vr~

live'

)I:Ver
14) I
ill

!u Lve

. . „
• • .
hi
1\ distrtived the piper.. ,
.scveri ' " th ,such a letter had oeen
. • st. ot,e
" ).
z" . and Other :wi.itesses woutt I.rovet
I et,
1.-
1,114 r '" had' been by 01;ver, He then welt
ai ,ow. • 1,14 whete. lie ,ntred` ,by meats
•• • tto t hoie already, , de-scribed, -t„o excne t•
• r),,!"Ple to acts ueinsitonrilitiation there, .be
the 'tight Hot,. gentleman, Oliver bald
,grandreth. He Wr.tlit orOve .this on 'die alli
,fa person who had +vitness_er;(intntietirliete,eotpipol,o;-.
lo
.aite ' was. that t
sllel --Ile would not the
" th" intenry were grainer), lie tvoald pro( itee
1411 u
1%;„
itl'ess to prove the fact. The atlitta ..
t
Thiestiou, lie thought, was , confirmed. by
eiiit'atenteut made by Brandre•h,
..to his soli-re, (4. Previotts to his trial.. Part of the. sta.e-
Te wool,' real), and he Should not the less_
the (I's° hecau,:e it contained, te'enutession, of
die .-eg'll actions of . which Brandreth,AVithoet
°f the \vas guilty. In proof of what he.,natt said
t(aill'','Ystent which had been acted, upotit.,.ll.iiee
1,41 "In produce the evidence of a person of
1)11„1- 'a,lf Stevens who was at present in
01•!v.e.r
11:,"“lavit which he then read., described.
can.
4eted the same part as at the 1. hr •e t
Ist,l,!llie-hottse, where he met Brandreth, t
1.,:0rp.4'.,,,47evi0n51y' acted, and to have told rite same
71'11 t the determination of the
• Deers esptF
r • clawation intended to
'1"
the
I°had tole) on other
Wooler, that be -
The strltenaeut of Brandreth set forth, -
'l4l', at the Three Cannons, had told lihn
(4es'ir 1114 s going foetid the country, to Alan-
-4(14 (,flit ),dices, to see that all Was
I°C, tieit inteeded to return brDerby
cr:'4lon. , He said he con Id raise 70,000 men,
11ei°i'lted. out v4rious ohjects which it would
site ()" them to secure immediately on the break
-
141°11t of the iusurrection. He subsequently-
-131 aeother visit to Nottingham,he. when cons,-
-i0,4;11"(1 much of the backwardness of •the people,
('"n3tiatilly spoke of the Bth or 9th of June,
tinie at which (he rising %vas to take place.'
6:at el Ital.', the people in 12;rielpt were ready
10;
it down tee, stnti-e,iing tyratits:tv.hn oppressed
1-1;• ndtlett, .11Iajor Cartsvri-ght and others,
.11'"ise names it would not thee be proper to !neo-
n, were acquainted with the whole of the pro-
tQ, •
and he mentioned the names of several
Orfi
' Lers..whom he asserted to appro.'e of what Was
3;04,
or,. Outer had besides sent one Crab-
li`e to Birmiugham, to invite certain persons
lefe to attend t easoliaute meeting, but they
0(1. decliited, and declared they washed their
',1,)(1s Of the whole •Inisiness.• Ile nowt begged to
I the attention Of tht.•;Rouse tootle memorable
:(et. namely, that . (tom the day Oliver had been
lte4l:ic'el 01- being' a spy—from tl.e day on which
,t4(,:e'l'ed to he the lottrist and the missionary o
all disturb:l:ices had ceased. Sonic -
",los°110w.41:t1", he contended', ought to be Thad for
tite•,e..,l/4-.40 by such arts bath been seduced fro nu
terit-4"(Y• It tea,y well for those who ha.
of tuOlj of th.eirown, or who. received large sum
fir „,„.ices, or fur no -servicesre,no
i`t co rttt'ti jk cOltut est, to t.tt 'follt, the enthmi,ty of
ter Y di';l(-141ct 4%o'ot:fended agiinat its ;
► keow what it svas to see a wile
tll( etc
11'4: l trYitig far bread, mud to have none .to
• iti'tit'• Placed in such'a situation, they •ktiew
ost•ti feelirigs would be. In such._
1 1 winds under other
tircuat, .'ett wotild things, - .
"ar.ces, they would not think of for a
Imo would catch at
Isted i' 5" these would adopt schemes little calcu-
'li.'• -41 e'fford thm e tenet'. That •there were then
of chic,, hi take ad vaut age of such a state
et-oil& nut be doubted, but the ques-
the fir'
the Rouse to consider was, w heater
sive-°°Thioations of such persoos woe so extet-!
Ivas a''',t° fford grounds for rational al Arm. lie'
Lath :,111 aY
surprised that a more formidable rising
`c')ll u[ been pioduced by the Missiottaries of Go-
who had beet' employed during the
Nc eal. at the habitations of want and distress.
'fois‘e. " t° "Ilat was said of the use that the prt-
Th.t.." "t Derby tnie,ht have made t: Mr. Oliver.
read' 11'" wascert ainly concealed inperhy,
Y to earn the Mood-money which he expected
tocrifget out of tl,ose whom he had instigated to.
r aittisef:ll. e d(;111.11leSs there fur loaf purpose,
hr ni in 0: nther. The prisoners could
.eot call
tl►etrl'')eiT behalf, as it would be no defence tot
t° say they hail be6t seduced into treason.
ley wi,hed to Prove th4t, they bad not Commit-
-I,,Littgllll(3loTl:slicloc(r)(l.:%alitich formerly took place in Isis
tech the ci.iniehaul
to
their
charge. Could the
Derwent water, have been pie-
would it have been received as any excuse
tut the poor sufferers,.tom they hail only offended
Y following their Lord? Ile would tell why the
• 011'.'t taken with the triads at Derby had been
~rzelerred. If Bacon had first been put upon his
11e11, Oliver would have been an importaot vvit-
it's. The Noble Lord opposite k'uew this. He
elletv that Oliver tvas much concerned with what
,441 been done by Bacon, and for this reason the
s 'it:lister traitor wt's not first put on hitt ti ial. The
ets which he had stated he was prepared, on the
• 1:;11s of witneises—not like the Atttnney:iene-
t ' witness Castles, hut petscins,ot
substantiete. It might do very well fur Gen-
litOtti opposite to deny the inquiry called' tor•by
Ivt• present motion, but this
'would nut do very
'll tor the public.
11t4r• \Armee- RettecE objected to the motion, and
tt as a Member sollhe.Committee, be had a
by th "t to say that 'he 'ought not to be einhart•assed
11.,e reference which it
,proposed. Ile thought
it Qll°llse ought to negative the motion, because
I)().‘t'acs founded on. a false assumption, as
-
Ave'lll that no 'disturbance had occurred till Olivet
),14„ to the country. hue Committee, however,
1(4: deClared it to have been proved on StltithlC.-
leiZ eividerice, that a simultaneous rising was con-
•h,,Yiated betore Oliver lett London, though it,
zee; not denied that the agents sent down to de-
l()
tithe couspiratorsnight have added something
Itlitstieb thaliguity of the design. This stated,'
it
false seen 'the motion went altogether on a.
eeci.,!Yloithesis. lie knew
H m trot how to for e
ebt'.l`e opinion on the character of Oliver till he.
totther information respecting Ile
11'4 YaPPearetl in a very different light, from
°W, ipoer t i,l die Committee, than lie did
11)an.-"the statement made by the Hon. Gen-
Wtts said It any man had )acted the part which he
)wavee Cleat,l ie 11101. only. thought a
t

Most material service Would IN tendered to the
pohlic hr (riming hitn to justice, hitt ht.! ,should.
he indSt anxiou, .fne his piwishmeut.,---(Flear
Rethought it would be desirat•de to abstain
,finnit
employing such persons as spies ,al4,igether, but
if it. was Athnitted that they to be employed,
lie didlOt think all the indignation now collected
against Oliver ought to be poured on the
.head of
an individual ,who hart only offended by going a
little torther in effars to decei,e those wyom
was scot .to de e'et-than he ought to have
done. in the main, be thought moreliarin than
goodreitirltea front cmploying Our
.1101) Heeded _not soch supporters: it stow not ou
so base and saltily 4 foundatiow as to require their
services, hut, established on, liberty and
could well sustain itself without so disgraceful an
association.. He Must oppose the pr•seut motion,
as he djd.not see that the inquiry called fur would
afford-any practicakhenefit. •
.The,SoyciToa-Gt4iettAL said the present
though grounded .solely on a passage in the,
Report of the. Secret Committee, was not ,justified
by that Report, as it was there stated that it was
proved, on clear and satisfactory evidence, that a
treasonable conspiracy had been formed before Mr.
Oliver went into the country_ .There. was there-
fore DO degree,of criminality charged iii that Re.,
port on the agents of Government that could be
made the subject of uprosectition. On the topics
which hail been introduced 'to induce the _[louse
to agree to the motion, be must sarbe considered
the information of the Hoooortible.(ilentlrition. in
he drawn from suspicions and polluted sotirces.
'He had. named early in his speech one Mitchell,
who 'had been lately discharged front. confinement
for,treasonable practices. This person, and Pen
-
drill awl Stevens, who were now in America, he.
suspeetel'ott having furnished much of the infir-
Illation in que:tion.—(Mr.Bennet denied the cor-
rectness of this conjecture amidst loud cheering.)
—He would ask, front the cheering which bad
foll'owed his asSertioti that the inforination'
de-
ritted -from sources like- those to 'WhiCh he had
alluded was polluted. and suspicious,.. if it could be-
supposed that the respectability .of individuals
could be increased by their 'having been charged
with tteasonable 'practices ?r Thi., he was sure,
would ykorbeimiutuined itv.th4t ilouse; but such
seemed to be impressiriq made elsewhere; and
those who were so distingiiished were accordingly
pointed.our,'nbt-iittly as ObjeetS:of public comm;-
seration but qfipublie.bouniy. The cry ;x0 pow
tip against Oliver. It was quite safe for tho:e
whom tie had spoken to lay every thing to hltu,
and represent themselves, poor soul`s!- to have
been all tdong•perfectly innocent.—(llear, hear !)
—He drilled that Castles bad been the witness of

the Attorpey-General, as he had unfairly been
'called. He had been t he wit ties of the.CroWn
'and-the conitriv; and had only been introduced by
the Attorney-General, as a person whose evidence
could not be received, unless it should be confirm-
ed by the testimony of other witnesses. Castles
had been no spy. ' He had been "taken up. with
the Other traitors, and it was plot till long after
the: transactions of which he gavel e%idence bad'
occurred, that lie' had - any tingmunication With
the Government.' It had been 'said, that Oliver,
at the time of the late trials, had been aaten
down to Dei by, to earn i blood-money. t was
impossible for hint to have been taken down tor
any suet) purpose. He could not have been
called for on any of the trials, as it would be seen
his name had not been included in the list of wit-
nesses pi eviously furnished to the prisoners.—
(Hear, hear 1)--Had Oliver been Called,'the La
Officers of the Crown would have been reproached
for briaging hint forward, as they had been for
producing Castles in Londoe, but ao had not
included him in the list of witnesses, they wet e
note asked why he had not been brought forward.
''4l"n-siker' the mild terms in which the' Hon.-
Gentleman harf.spoken of the crimes for which
the Traitors at Der by suffered. He admitted
them to have been convicted of illegal actions. It
was thus he spoke of the conduct of men who in
the prosecution if treason hail committed mine•ler.
(Hear, hear 1)---The charge preferred against the
Attorney General was Wholly unfounded.-He could
not ha ve'brotteht forward Oliver if he woeld at the
and he had never thought Of doing so, as
Oliver knew tynhing Of the transactions lie wished
to prove. But it was said the prisoners could not
call bitn, as it would have been no defence for
them to spew that they had been seduced into the
cormnisSiOnOf High Treason. Be it so ; but this
is tniTeaSon why they should abtain from stating
the het, if such were the truth, when they were
brought up to receive 'sentence. It had only been
stated that Oliver had seen Branclreth once ; that
was on the 25th May. But would it be maintained
that the conspiracy had originated in th it inter-
Wilien :it WKS known that the preparations
of the traitors bad been in 'prowess for Weeks and
weeks 'before. It was not true that tha course
of the trials had been regulated by the considera-
tion, that if Bacon had been put to the Oar first,
Mete truest have been caned as a principal witness.
As Oliver was not in the list of witnesses, he could
not Have been brought forward on that trial more
than on an'y of the others. Brandreth, as leader
Isl. the conspirators, was taken fit st, as the person
against whorn, in common justice, they were
boom! to proCeed in the first instance.
Sir SAtienteeY declared he should give his vote
for the present motion, though he could have.
%visited the inquiry confided to another Committee.
In such a case he.would ask if the House •4 dared"
to refuse au inquiry altogether i It eras understood
'that the House had not long to live, and would it
dare to meet the impression such conduct would
make on their constituents? He had never beard
a more unfair charge than that mane by his Learned
Friend (the Solicitor-General) against his Ilmi.
Friend (Mr. Bennet), when he stated his infor-
mation to have been derived front a polluted source.
Mitchell the Learned Gent. had spoken of as one
• who seas not entitled to credit. Wiry ? Because he
was otie of the unfortunate persons 'rho had been
confined under the Suspension of the Habeas Cot pus.
' lie wished it'to be seen what strides el inislers were
dispo'sed to take. Because they fastened on an inch-
vidnal and confined him, his character was to be
blasted for' ever, 'and his evidence was not to he
received against Ministers The other persons his
Learned Friend had mentioned,• were, he believ-
ed, out of the country helore the, transactions in
ptcz;tiou tools place, and consequently tilt: Lion.

. .. .
. ~ .
- ,
G.•‘2.ntleinen could not hae-e 'tlertved his, Information
. frOut 'them. The Solicitor-Geoet al,• under all' the
. eiretinistauces.,; load oorigift. to suppose the infor-
. tnat4on of his lion. Friend had 'been derived front
pedlitred source•. • li liad neveri been imputed- to
Oliver that lie originated the disaffection whieh ,
bed existed, but that; this having been previously
inspired. he had worked- it, up! intof those Inds-.
',eltievotis actions in which • it at •last broke out.—
It seemed that lie had had intercourse.. with.Bratid-
reth before the Silt of Jun,, yetilii,though• re-
peatedly called upon, the law ollicers.hathrelnsed
to • prove. . 13cut it' teas sai:i,- the prisoners might
have stated. what the conduct of Oliverlild,:been
ie.hen they -were called .up to receive sentence,
—Did his ii onourii lib: and Learned Friend titlark
their .doing so would ,have inclined, the Court
to. mercy ?. If, ,be slid; his ,opi'"" was • very
diffetent from what lie . (Sir: II: Romilly) enter-
tabled. But what. had beeo.the language of the
sufferers at the placeoLexecntion. It had been
stated, that • then. they had accused Oliver. It
when they ,did this in theit•dast tnoments; know-
.iiig they. were about.immediately to •appear before
their Maker ; if they were not to be believed then,
neither could,he persuade himself that. they would
have beets believed on, being brought up% toHI
re-
ceive• senteece. His Leatoed ,Friend harl.repre-
I seated his Hon. Friend., in speaking of these men,
to have mitigated their crime• by
Which lie spoke of it,. as if they trail only been
guilty of a.... misdemeanor, or, some trifling of-.
lence.•,- Who could have heard' hint speak of
their ,illegal actions, without .midetstaioting him
to 'neap,, that whether they were guilty of
.High Treason or not, their lises were justly for-
feited to. the Jaws of their country ? After de-
scribing the honourable Gentlemau to have ob-
tained information from a polluted source, lie then '
seemed to 'say; " And pow, by; the manlier in
which their crime is spoken of, I will show you
Lthat the man who brings forward this informa-
tion is one who; in a 'llltlllner., makes common
cause With them." . Tbe, expressiou he had used
' teas too stroog, but perhaps his Learned Friend
would hilve the. goodness: to explain what he said.
• If the present motion were negatived, as he agreed
with au Honourable Gentleman near him (Mr.
Wilberiorce) that spies ought not to. be employed
Hby. a Government, he hoped that Honourable
Geetletnan would-move for another Committee to
Liuquire hot; the late proceedings, and that he. was
-of. - opinion would be the most effectual step that
could he taken towards termhiating the system
which .he wished to put down.:
i . Sir S—RostILLY having asked across the table,
I if the SoliCi tor-Gent:Fel would explain—
: Mr. CANNING said, if he recognised • the right
of the•Uon. and.. Learned 'Gentleman who had just
sat down to regulaie their debates, which be
i:seetned to claim, be should, undoubtedly, wait
rafter the call whichdiad beet) made on his Learned
LFriend for explanation, to see it it were his' plea-
' sure to obey to 'extrwntlinary a call.—(Hear,.
i'hear!)—He called it an extraordinary call,' be-
I eaii:se it had been Made not merely in the speech
i' of die- Honottralile and Learned Gentlernau, but
I had been colloquially repeated across the table,
after'he had resumed his seat. Hut the Learned
l• Gentleniaa might •b, aware 'that
_there were two
reasons for not offering .explanation—the one
1 where what had been stated was so clear as to
make this unnecessary ; the other, where a state-
! meta had been—lie would tint say so wilfully,
but certainly so grossly misrepresented, that it
- might safely be left to the audience to do the
ISpeaker justice. It was expedient not only tore-
cal to the minds of Gentlemen the course which'
the debate on this question 11.4 taken, but also to
recal the question itself, as those who had butt
•lately entered -would riot easily collect what it.
was from the speech which they had just beard..
It might appear to diem that the question was
whether any inquiry should take place, not on
the alleged, but on the proved misconduct of Mi...
nisters, since he had told them if they negatived
the present motion of the risk they would ran from
the weight which such conduct Must be expected
I to have on their •coustituents. But lie had not
I stopped there: whether he distrusted the facts which
had been brought forward by his Hon. Friend,
, or whether he was sensible of the failure of his
own dissuasive -powers, after the attempted
bittnnachieveti triumph over his Learned Fritnad
near him, he could not say ; but rite Learned
IGentleman had ,thoeght proper to put in a plea in
bar, and be had asked if the House " dared" to
negative the minim). With the leave of the
Learned Gentleman, hue would say, the time for
urging this topic was not yet come. Whatever
might 'hereafter occur—to whatever milleuium
some persons might look forward, the time was
not yet tome when that House would• act • from
intimidatiott.=.(Hear, hear !)----The time had not
yet arrived when that' topic from the tribu-
nal of Robespierre—(Hear, hear !)—could be
successfully urged. Did this draw a smile
from Gentlemen opposite ? Be it so ; but before
he: sat down, perhaps, he should prove that it was
not ' he: glove—that it was not the Government
alotie--,that it •was not the •inajority of that House
1
. I alone, who held this opinion, but -that it was the
sentiment of the majority of the country. What-
-1 ever the Learned Gentleman "night think, be
flattered himself that the House would not be so
intimidated, for that was the word which an;
swered to the " dare" of the Learned;GentLman,
as to .be prevented by what they might have ex-
' ternally to bear, or by what intemally they had as
I yet heard front the other side of die House, from
looking fairly-at the real merits of the question,
and deciding on it as they should think proper.—
, • 'rids was surplusege--(Latightei)—but the
introduction of the topic into the debate called
for his statement in reply—(hear, and laughter)
—lf the Gentlemen opposite thought that
their displeastire end their wen-organized shouts
could p•st down 6:stwelnent tit his. whets it was
e:-Illed fur by the necessity of the argument, they
► would find, themselves as much - mistaken es they
were when by the same means they elideavoured
to oppose the satisfactory and most po wet fel
speech of his Lea rftvd Filets& '!'his war' sur-
,plusage, 'becaue it had moiling to do.wi‘h the
Hon. Gentleman %vlio' lead broaglit forward this
motion, or w'ob the motion itself. lie knew not
whether the nuitiiiii had beets frenied by the Ilon.
aimself,
orwhether he had been assisted
Gh;loutihe man h
others. If he had trained it himself, he had been

iintirtulent not to consult his (fiends; but if he had
takeo the advice of others, and this motioo•was
the ,result); 'God 'help: itim for ' his: ,14.ietuls.---
(lieare heat-1)-711 he bad produced it stlooe, all
the' incofigruity •and absurdity . (he .tlio nut ap--
ply..the expression •personislly) of:the motion be-
.longeiF to himself e hut if it had been brought
forward in concert with the Gentlemen isear7hirri,
never bad .unhappy Mover been so completely de-
serted as he .bad been by all his followers. Wows,
ever were the various-arginents which his.triends
haft severally. usede not
.one ,had• seri,ken'whose
speeds did not go in effect to chase away the pre.-
sear nicitiote, ;ands substitute ,some :.ot her in .its
room. In ender to institute a prosecution against
those who had so greatly sinned, against the peo-
ple, -against the peace.of the eounteyeand against
morality and religion, as some individuals ;were
ssitsl, to :bare done, • the motion proposed • that ' an
inquiry should be, in ade• by the Secret Committee
HMV sitting, as to what had been clone to bring tes
justice those whose 'conduct they had censured io s
toriner Report., His Right Hon. Friend bad sup-
posed this; !notion , related to the conduct of the
person called Oliver, and had answered the Mover
acessedialgly,.:when in the middle of his speech, he
was told that it- was-not that was alluded.
to, but Castles.,—Castles could have nothing to do
with the second Itepoit of the Secret Committee.
He was quite .out of the question. :The shouts
of the mob, no the acquittal of Thistlewood,
were heard while that Committee was sitting—so
their Report. on mat occasion could. have nothing
to do, with hint. • The motion then, it was natural
hi suppose, referred to the operations of Oliver.
No artifice of algutnent—noshing but a plain
statement of fact* to chew that such must be the
meauingof the unction it it meant any thing at all.
What was the case of Castles ? Here %vas a man
taken with other persons supposed to be guilty of
High Treason, and admitted.an evidence against
them. He was not believed by the Jury, and then
a motion was made tor an inquiry by a Committee
of the Eloise of Commons into what bad been done
against. a King's evidence. Did any man on earth
ever hear of such a proceeding ! Did the Gentle-
men opposite not mean Castles ? Did they limit the
question to Oliver, or Oliver and Co. ?—(Hear,
hear !)—Well, be it so. Then the motion would
be this : to instruct the Secret Committee to in-
quire, not. into what seas right fur them to recom-
mend to the House, but into what had been done,
after it had been distinctly avowed that twilling had'
been done ! It might be a matter of impeachment
to have done nothing : then let the Honourable
Gentlemen impeach, but let their not come for-
waid in; so silly a insinnCt, and with so childish a
;notion, to inquire into what they knew had not
been done. This the House would not do, if it
leis the least attachment to its reputation for
common sense. The Honourable Gentlemen op-
posite ham! declared the Secret Cortnni, tee to be
one appointed by Mioisters, to make diens their
own fudges, and to delude the House and the
.country; and yet it was to such a Committee that
they wished to refer the investigation proposes! i
Thus it was they gave a proof of the most Itn-
piiiit ennti(lence to the body t hey „prole.ss.e.l. to
degrade 1 The Honourable Gentlemao .would
its fact find out,- by comparing his motion with
the speeches uttered in its support, .that he had.
been, not indeed an Oliver, but the paw of a eo-
rnestic animal pro forward to feel ihe sense of the
louse.—(Latighter.)—ile would now turn from
the motion, which was only the sharpening of the.
wedgeto introduce the grosser statements. A No-
ble Lord who had followed on the saute side, had
admitted that:it was impossible tor any Govern-
ment to refuse to receive information of plots
formed against them. Now it was clear that all
Goveinnlents must teceive such information re-
specting the state of the country front different
sources. lie agreed that that was the best which
came from an established and unsuspected chart-
Rd, and if the Noble Lord or his friends 'could
prove that in lieu of tegular .reports from esta-
,blished authorities, Ministets had accepted the
communications of "obscure agents, then they
would make a real case against them. But
this had not happened. The repOrts received
had come from the highest Authorities, and
if Governmeut had committed any faith it
was that of delay and diminution, instead of ex-
aggeration, of alsom. To what impeach meot
would not a Government have been liable,
who, in December, 1816, should have received a
statement like the following, nod not taken im-
mediate measures to counteract the danger ? " I
cannot conclude this hasty report to your Lord-
ship without calling your particular attention to
this riot, which was not in consequence of dis-
tress, want of .employment, or scarcity of provi-
sions, .bits the offspring of a revolutionary spirit,
in consequence, and probably in connexion with
the meeting in Spa-fields, and with no:hing short
,of a completeichange in the Constitution and the
Government its the cootemplation of. the agita-
tors " It this statement had come from an ob-
scure, quarter, from, as Johnson expressed it,
,some " wise Justice on the Banks of Thames;"
,ruin a •persou Who bad read of revolutions only
in the newspapers, and had always sat under his
. own fig tree, even then Government would have
beets warranted its acting upon it. ilow much
more then, whin it came from ao agitated dis-
trict, from a character well vered. in the his-
tory of revolutions, Irons a Local Lieutenant of
the
.West Riding of York !—(Hesr, hear !)
Had Government, alter receiving such 'anima-
t ion, and from Such a eeuarter, taken no steps, would
they not have plainly st4eeted themselves to an
act of _impeachment for gross negligence ? As to
the doubts thrown on time existence of the late
conspiracies, lie defied the historical knowledge
.aced legal research of the other side of the House,
. to state any instance in which, :slier a conspiracy
had been crushed, in any Mate whatever, doubts
11,1(1 not been excited of its haviuy, ever existed.--
Ile knew that it would be said that Earl Fitz-
. wiiliaro (the Lord Lieutenato of the West Riding
of Yorkshire) loud. since retracted his opinion, but
at the time when it was-first delivered, it was its-
formation
,on which the Government toll: r:
have taken immediate meastoes. They were
taken, anti had received the approbation of the.
-Houses--to be surelt was that 'of a mijoril, anti
it might• have, been wiser originally to have
settled that a minority should catry..the point.--
4 (Laughter.)---1 ut that was a prejudice—a mere

-ari'lirriet,lc-al, prejudice, Ise would allOw,, which
we had inherited ftom our forefathers, and by
which it therefore would he j”rlians better at
present to ratline. As to the employment of spies,
a': had admitted the principle that it was, tti. uo-
a voi'dahle evil. The question was therefote only
o,e of. atlllSe. Wllat'else could Government do to
detect ermspiracies, than •tti re 've informaifon
leant whatever character, were able to give it ?
Were they to ntalie it a rule to accept no intelli-
f!ettee but trout persons of the purest virtue
Front the hnshand of one wife, the truest of
friends', the most independent of men, who was
"iiot even bound by the duties: of a profession, but
Could give all his time to the detection of conspi-
ricie., for the good of his conotry?—{Latighter.)
In this' age of monsters, such a n3iin of unsidlied
tio; Soch a faithful huch3ll,l and trite
'ft irnit, suet) a disinterested and fervent pa-
triot, ‘vonlci himself be a monster, if he
e\isted at all.--•.(Laughter.)-,-Aud if ccmipit
cies were to. ha'vtf head until such a character
should he found ro detect them; .the poor country
would not be far from that refitted state in xyVielt
the bloodyphilOsop het s 'a the ,I Srh century
ed to place lier.—(Lfear, hear !)—Stippose'an

characteT ittform that

.
there i, a plot to.t4lic the his intelligence
' must first be tieated kvi It ridicule. Should he-an-

• ' pounce intended murders,—" Oh; it's impossible,
e"nwhere lb,. means i" Should lie say, !‘
•lliove it to you," he intio he answered," pray,
bow tnnny ch'ddren have you ?"—(Laughter-Ff " !low inAny wives r' " I had one,
hot she ran an ay Fuunue years
,shire; and I have
-: t atM. her woman." " What, 'you 'wretch,
'• do you pretend' to be believed ?---•--do • you dare to
intoriont on, von, whom we si rm/gly
• sn.s:,e'elt to he a.bi,,amist ?-;,*et •off froth) ottr sib llt,
10, are unworthy of tredit.."---(PeAs latighter.)
n plan v,muld hethe best bank: possible agni!,st
polygamy. (li‘Ottei ) hut it w0.,1.t1 dn nothing to

. ~
save the country. 1(01e flon.-Mover's.objcct Was
'to,firueliorate the connubial stare,- be shoild
him strongly to pet severe, and he might do !midi
' good in his generation.—(Laughter.)—Rut let'

him not hope by'slich a plan to secure the safety
at the Hie. He agreed that Government FilOilid
not act on the information given by an indifferent
•chiracter, Unlessit were conoborated. But was
infatuation to be received or rejectetron the score
of chlracter merely ? \ll,7as it necessa7v that a man
Shoolcl never hale been in drink, or in love with
a wonnin, to be credited ?-1% respect to
(Yiler, the motion-imputed no crime to him for
which he was amenable to the laws, but the per-
- for mance of that odious and disgusting duty which
he had undertaken fur the safety of the coun-
try. It was certainly impossible that, not his
Is•ords and.revesentations alone, -hot his very ex-.

ist e nee amongst the 'disaffected should' not have
operated as encouragement.—The accession of a
single new face was an 'accession of strength, and
thereltire tended to encourage. Neither could it
be expected that a man who ventured amongst
conspirators in disguise should not be obliged to
tell them lies, to support his character. If the
Alioisters had their option to detect conspiracies
by renesi.ceptionable means,- or by the employment
• of betrayers, they would tint hesitate to prefer- the
first. Bot the question was, Whether they would
employ the only means wnirh offered themselves,
Or stifi,r ;he State to to to meek. He repeated
the starcntertt of an Honourable and Learned
Friend of his, that not one human bein"; had
been- dentired -of his liberty for an hour on
the estimotfy of i ver.. They hail been taken
up on t•-stitimony ,tOtally *unconnected with hint,
anti- to which 'he had served only as an index,
and tit it in but few cases. As to- rite trials
in Deiby,,,they•ilid nor prove that extraordinary
'measures had been necessary; but they proved
that the genet al sritement on which those mea-
sures were founded was correct. On the whole,.
lie thought that the House could have no Itesita
' lion in disposing of the motion of the Hon. Gen-
If his object was the condemnation of
Alinisters, lie had a slant ter method, as it had been
javowed that none of the measures asked for 11:.(1
been adopted. Let hint make that his ground of
impelchmen(. If he only wished to punish Oli-
ver, the' answer would he, that the anthority' to
which ltis rn,,tion referred, the Report of the,Se7
cret 'Committee, assigned no crime whatever to
that intlividoal. The l,liguage of that Report im-
puted an effect, and not am iutonioti, to the con-
duct of cerkain persons, and it. was nece>sary to
rime an intrution before an individual could be
considered liable obe tried. He thought, there-
fore, that there was no occasion to push the
finite to a division On-the. motion on the table,
which, if carried, would canter on its, Drover and
Supporters a task impossible to execute.—(Hear,
bear, bear !)—Sir S. ItomiLLY explained.
Mr. TistiNay observed, with respect to theal-
InFion made to the expression used by an Hon.
and Learned* Friend of his, that the House would
not dare to act against its own_ sense of consist',
ency, he recollected an thou. Gentleman Who, on a
former occasion, had gone,noteh farther, whose-
words had hcen,taken down, and who had claret:
to say, " If ,you persist in this line, we will ap-
peal to the. people !"—Thus, in 1807, threatening
the Rouse witit.its dissolution', it it did not fall
in svith the stews of the Ministry. It had
been stated
.that • nothing had been dune, be-
cause nothing could be done. He was little
of a lawyer,'s-•:t it was plain to him that if an
agent entployed for a gOod purpose had acted for
so evil one, he might at least he indicted for a
tni.denteanot. But-Government dared not make
such a propositirio. They felt that Oliver was
sacred. They.coold not touch one hair of his
he,md, neither .could they interfere with any of
their spies'without the danger of exposing them-
selves. The Hon. Gent. had spOkeu of Oliver
atsd Co. a commercial expression; which was equi-
valent to Oliver and self. He had also given a
long dissertation on 'the nature of spies ; but all
the secret of his arguments.lay in time employing
the word spies, where others used that 'of infor-
it was necessary for Government to ob-
tat:i intormation ; but when the nelson sent tin
that errand aeled as an incendiaty, he became a

Itl4-rs.

slitr,!re,,t\eliaracter, and tikOde to punishment. The
Gentkniln lia
.d eniressen his fear lest some

Mon Members %viLo lidd entered Ike House since

t 11,: corronewerwnt of - the debate should
.have

ii•ThetOiy in uuclerataudit►g the ,motion; if

so, it must hive been from the.levity with which
a Minister of the Crown ha-1 been futon!
g Iu jokes, and attempting to raises aronnrl
him, when the awful stilt:jeer before the House
,e„9, whether an Agent of the Government hail
not' been the red anthor of all the cominotions.
tie then 'reverted to the attempt at s' age elicet

made by an Honourable Gentleman opposite (Mr.
Canuingl, in producing a letter which must have
been lit the bag sulmiitted to the Secret Commit-
tee. Did he say "No ?"—Oh then, that hag did
not contain all the:information. He now under-
Stood that it was its one of the old bags.—The
Geuttlernan had groped-about in them. and
found a letter from Lord Fitz'+illlam, dated De-
Ceitiber, 1816, in -which that Nobleman-gave what-
then appeared to him a fair view of the state of a
panieular part of the country. On this the Hon.
(irtitleman.said, what could the Government do
but take Strong and immediate measures ? Ye:
thOse very tneattres were not proposed till Feb.and
tvonid no; have been even then, if it had not been
for tie pebble thrown in the Park ; for the speech
irons the l'hione intimated no such views on't be
pittt of Ministers. But suppose this should' turn
our to have been a must marked attempt to de-.
ecive- the House and Country, an-I that another
lett er-hatl since been written by Lord Fitztwii-
liam;; -contrai?ieting, the fonder, and assigning' his'
reasons for doing so. Would it not ' have been-ther,
duty of-that-Hon. Gentleman to read it But he
had said; ti-tat 'Lord Fitzwilliam, might 'have.
chaugvd. his opinion when the danger was .past.•
Lie changed his opinion when he had 'been
!cut down to Yorkshire to •investigate the real
state of the country. Let that letter he pro-
Anced.- If -it were not in 'the presVnt bag-:
the Committee.. were wilfully deceived: If that
letter were not coommnicated, and' the Cirmthit-'
tee -should report wit trout it, that Report•woubl-
delm!e the House arid 'the cOuntry.• Nay; itJtcas
alter that letier had
coutedtit ti ro ex-cite 41a rtn li ,attel deeltit e'
the suspension Of the Habeas Corpus neces,ary.-
If, instead of sending a manitoiinfliiine the minds (Attie dis
affected, Jtr. Oliver Inutheen.instriicted. to show them-the
folly of their Maps, would they, not hare been given op ?-=
Oliver went among' them as a deiegate'froin London.' To'
London all their hopes -wese,inrned. --These hopes Oliver en-'
cOuraged. .NQW, if instead of encouragement hel,,.til told the
troth, and said there was not a man in Lon'don .....outa assist
'theth,whO could doubt hut that' tile whole' eohsPiracy. Wank'.
have fallen to pieces? All tho'deluded persons who had lt.en.
imprisonett.ought to, have an opportunity of shewing, in
what way and on what principles they had acted. If the
second letter of Lord Fitzwilliani Was not in the hag re-
ferred to the Committee.the wholii Was a perfectjuggle. The

prod uetitut of that. letter was due to that Nol4eL;;rd. The
Right Honourable Gentlemen opposite might think that they
had a triumph last night; and that' they would Imre an-

•
other triumph of the same kind this night. The•ease of the
Learned Lord, which was last night,befpre the House,.wagjuot
like that of M'Kinlay; the charge against him was not proven.
But with this difference, that in M'Kinlay's case there was
nothing to prove; hut in the Learned we
re
not case they
not allowed to prove any; thing. .The Noble Lord bad no
triumph lasi night; his triumph this night would be of the
- • .1
same kind.'
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL and Mr. TIERNEY =Au-
411v explained.
..... •
. Air. CANNING said, that WWI respect to the
letter of Lord Fitzwilliatn, .he would appeal to
the recollection of the [louse whether, in the de-
bates last Session on the second Suspension of
the Habeas Corpus Act, one of,the strongest ar-
guments against that Suspension was not the
change of opinii,n in Lard Fiqwilliain ?—(Bear,
hear !)---Mr. TIERNEY explainud.
Lord MILTON said, that although letters from

carious Lords Lieutenant were Jaid before the
Secret Com:niltee, not one Inter trout the Lord
Lieutenant of the West Riding of Yorkshire
(Lord Fitz,viiiiaw) was laid before that,Com-
rnittee i—(;lear, hear !)—but be.,had gi% en notice
in the Committee of a motion for the production
of that letter.

Lord CASTLEREAGH animadverted strongly on
the unfairness oft Noble Lord• who spoke last
(who (lid not seen► to feel in any deg tee hamper-
ed-by the Committee being a Secret one), in his
statement,as to what passed ir; that Committee
respecting the letter• of Lord litzwiHiam. The
fact was. that the Noble Lord (Miltpn) having
in , the Committee expressed an intention
moving for that letter; haft, r►tt his (Lord C.'s)
suggesting that it was not likely there would be
any objection to produce it, agreed. to give, no.
Ike of his motion as, for a future day.—(Hear,
bear !)—The Noble Lord, therefore, had given a,
very unfair 'colouti►►g to the circumstances relative
:0 that letter. Ou the general question before
time House. after the very able and unanswerable
Speeches which had been made from his side of the
notise, it Would be unnecessary for hint to trouble
the House with any argument upon it. He there-
tote contented himself with protesting against the
system of general inquity which scented now to
be proposed trout the other side of the liouse.
FAZAKERLY shortly replied.
The House then divided

For the Motion
Against it
Majority against 0? Motion..--53
Adjourned at One o'Clock this Morning.

TO CORRE!iPONDENTS.
iVe are azain obliged to No;praid many Favotirs from nut- Cor-
respondents on account of the length of the Debate.

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IN BRIDGE TO-MORROW.

Evening, 46 minutes after• 7.

THE SUN.

SOLNI Di ("I",fi E FA M ACI M.:AT ?

LONDON,
THURSD.IY, FEBRUARY 12, 1818.

IVe received last night the Paris Tapers of
Sunday last. Those of Monday, which were due
this morning, have not come to hand. There is
no furthcrintelligenco in these Journals from Al-'
giers, but -the Muniteur has published all the de-

tails stated to 'nye Leen communkated to Sir
SIDNEY SMITH, tvhich we inserted on Monday.
The Recruitment Projet, as agreed to by the
Chamber of Deputies, was presented to the King
on Sattirdiy by the Pre,ident, zi,; the,four Secre-
taries of the Chamber. It was to,be,eocamoni-

cated to the Chamber of Peers in the course of the
present week. M. RoccA, 'whom Madame de
STAEL, shortly before her death, acknowledged her.
marriage with, 'died recently at Hieres. The.
Madrid accounts in these Journals give the same
account of the capture of "M"INA as that before
published, namely, from the Mexico Extraordinary
Gazette of the Ist of November

FIVE PER CENTS.

SAturday

.. eh f. 75 c.

After the copious account which we have this
day given of the. Debate that took place last night
fn the tionse•ot Commons, on the subjectof the
Employment of Set es and IsFottmEaS, in order to
.discover and frustrate the designs of REBELS, it is
nut necessary for us to say much upon the subject-.
We are not, as we have often declared, the servile
Instruments of Ministers, but the. staunch Sup-
porters of the Principles upon which .they act,
and we shall always support any Ministers'
while they act on .such principles, and
longer. The present Ministers, we sbleninly be-
lieve, have the interest Of the Country at heatt•
measures which they. adopted to, save
Country front the. efforts of :Sedition. and-Rebel-
hot; have been happily attended with' inccess.:-To

return to the Debate. It Is ilifijcn't to recur to
any period when any: Opposi; ion displayed_more
inconsistency,' folly, and ..Harty animosity; But
they were assailed by ridicule, argument, and
fact, and tiny were fully defeated. We have
only to refer to ti Speeches of Mr. CANNING, the
SOLICITOR-GENERAL, Mr. C. GRANT, Jun: and Mr.
IIATHURST, in,proof.of our assertion, :,Mr. TIER-
NEY delivered'. some of those scircastic growlings
'which mark his eliartiater a 3 a Political Orator.
:Upon the whole the secret was revealtl by Sir
SAMUEL ROMI-LLY, who observed;tbat " the House
had not long tti lire."' 'I
-hence tlie at tempt Of the Op-
position to obtain a little popularity,: by an osten-
tation of Public spirit, lest their Parliamentary
existence should lie wholly extinguished by a
Dissolution, As a proof Of the confidence of
assertion that marked- the conduct of Opposition
last night, 'obe. of them said that " THE PEOPLE
.complained that Spies and Informeri excltedi,
those disturbances on which, so much alarm was
grounded." TH'E PEOPLE,* we believe, will dis-'
dain such an imputation upon their common sense,
and readily admit that the real complainants are.
confined to the fragments. of such an opposition
as was never exceeded in political degradation since'
the origin of the Representative Body.,

We have more than once expressed our senti-
ments on the" Message of the President of the
United States, of America, as being of an aspect
hostile to this: country, although couched in:iptn-
guage-of affected moderation, and professing to
have defence only in view in its naval and military
recomtnendations. The more we consider the
subject, the morg clearly we se.; in it prospective
hostility to Great Britain.

The progressive enlargement of their Navy,
now that the European world is at peace, is a
subject worthy .of se► ions .rt• flection to those who
bold the, reins of Government in the United King-
dom. The clecep►ire arts by which. the Ameri-
c_►ns in; the late war. imposed upon .the world,
and. impressed .those who were not professional
men with a belief of their frigates having con-
tended with ours upon equal tetins, and come off
vietorimpt, have been ably exposed by Mr..lamasi,
in his valuable and interesting book lately p►ib-•
lished, .which merits being ,u►ade the vude Accum
. .
of every Briton. . .. , •

. The same arts are in preparation, respecting
their line of battle ships, but asMr..lAmEs has
pointed out the simple and rooOnsive means of
detection, by bringing all to the test of arithmeti-
cal cornpatison, it is to be hoped that none but
wilful dupes can be henceforth deluded by their
false and self-conceited pretensions. .
In estimating the real import of the late Mes-
sage, it must be brought to recollection, that the
last.war was declared by America against us, and
that we were so unwillingly forced into 'it,. that
we could hardly be cousidered, for a long while,
to be in earnest in its prosecution ; and finally,
without availing ourselves of the ample means at
length collected for coMpelling the United States
to do us justice,. we., unfortunately, made ,peace,
leaving important, points unsettled, and without
obtaining real ,security and intlependance for our
Allies the Indians, who had risked their
,existence
in making a common cause with us ; and also
without acquiring the needful
,barriers 'for our
North American Colonies as a safeguard -against
future aggression, which assuredly is only post-
poned to' a more convenient opportunity.' It is
true, we stipnlated that. the Int.lians should be re-
placed in the same situation they. were in
but the wax of the Treaty_wits scareely-told, be-
the Americans, in contempt ofthis compact,
marched a military force into the heart of thein-
dian country, anti took up new positions to com-
pel them into submission to such conditions as
they thought fit to impose.
- The Indians have since been maltreated in a
variety. of war, and t by ir land, in the Sonth and
the West are pretended to be purchased from thetit

by American agen..s, but the bargainThare li'dhlolo
tdry only upon one side, 'as:threats of 'exPit!°ter,,
were used, it resistance to such usurptiol"t
ritory,..einder the colour of sale, should beftia("'t
Qiitireds with them are industriously, 9
we
lsi after,- as grounds for their gradual expnon
wards, or eventual total extirpation, which us;
long been the systematic plait of the Ameri.,cit
Government; and the pretendedattetopts tocivulo.
and improve their condition are well; WO°
be fine words used to impose .upon peqle 8,t,60
distance, but were. never otherwise acted ne,„
than as a pretence tordespoiling them of their 10(7,
It however has been reserved, for the present rrast
sident to throw off. the mask, and to avow ag3iut,,
the poor unprotected Indians a doctrine s(1 t:,
principled, as to strike at the root of all proPer'at
by declarin, ‘.‘ that no tribe or people krt've re
right to withhold from he wants ofo i thers i),
than is necosary for their %%VII Slipport 30 "To.
fort.'-"fhis declaration, considering our stiloo
(ion at Ghent for the Indians, may be fairly. viet"
as throwing. down to us the gauntlet of defiiincf:/,
Another apparent act or &fiance, rvlrieb
though. not expressed in the Message, Yet halt
previously been deliberately undertaken, is kg
sending the American frigate Ontario t° Alto
possession of the Columbia River, which,..st'.:l,
mouth and its source, was discovered by. 01111.-1
Subjects, and in many places originally was,
.now *holly is, in their pOssession, as has been t
stated in an extract from The Morning Chrwlici,"-
:l
The supposed pretended ground for th ,i
is for
Miision, is an article in the abovesaid Trea,,`,Yl eid
the restoration of Posts or. Places respective)J
previous to the war, but %vithout decitliog

the right-of,either to places so restored. ig it
- .Now; by what ihocus pactis of interpretati°,l), ,e
that the Columbia River, .on the North west."'°by
of America, so discovered and so in possess")-tdcr
British Subjects, can-be construed to come
that Article., .when merely a Trading 1"0“
its mouth was surreptitiously once in the ocOlji.,,
lion of private American individuals or advcrltopr
ers, and by _them sold In .I.:ritish subjects'
made:the stipulated payment ; but neither of
Potrt,•• nor any putt of that River, was ever, 91. shy
time previously or since, taken posseoi""
the American Government ? by cite
Louisiana -never. did :or could extent" teri
utmost latitude. of boundary; beyond `vaiong
which fall into the Gtaph of Mexico ; and'n"t'l4,ol‘
short of . American presumption (which,, Mr. '-,53),
designated as equal to true Corinthian bra
could make;a question upon the suhjtet.
We cannot conceive that our Government of
tamely submit to so barefaced att-ustirp4ol9o.
:Ferritnry, so decidedly British• upon ever): 0
knowlt. dged 'principle, and the more especial) 'eo
tbe.usuak-forrns respecting restorations betvi,4
,nations .have not been observed.. Thectownirs-
course,.is for the Govertruent claiming -a regt?, to
(ion to obtain
,from the Government who .04
give. hepossessionan.order tor the deliverYr aos.
until that- is grAnted and produced, those Ord
session :have an undoubted right to dela" •
possession by force. . EIS
Joe not- applying for or obtaining sackip
,order, is its itself an avowal that the place
question. was not considered as within.,thf
.view of the Treaty; and this omission consequeoo,
more unequivocally tri4r4s the hostility Of the

tario!s voyage and mission. „
Another measure alike hostile to us Prn„ere
is the fortifications erecting. on _the itumen7o,
confines of Lower Canada, to facilitate frtfures&
•vasion, and indeed in the States no se.cret irfitor
the purpose of such military works on tilt: ft
tiers ; and all this is dnne under colour of tierer ou
at a time when we have not only commeneeltor•
new works in the Canadas, but have given 0P ,ar,
tiler- progress in those- begun during the late
and_ which must soon fall into decay and Illir"A
In corroboration of this hostility of rubld' )touttb
at the language held in Congress, which ‘s'.;
this
reserve points at the future devastatiouol „on
country ; and this passes With Out reproof,
pretence of our having defrayed the public 1)001/
Tugs at Washington, which was done by as o
in painful retaliation of the deliberate and o'3"t di
burning, not merely of public buildings, but
towns in Upper Canada.
In short it would be endless to enuttlera",
the symptoms of hostility whet eon our upi''''''es•
founded; but there evidently is a spirit of uggfica
sion and encroachment manifested by the Urtr
States against their neighbours, in a manner 1:41.„
to be disguised by fr4Athy allegations_orit
tentions at, variance with facts ; and we ibin
dear, that these Republicans are aclue
principles of aggrandisement, that Want is°{llil47
but time and opportunity,to tievelope.d„„insePbe,;
and which let-Juke to be watched by all °l,:fe
.Governments, and especially ours, as Laing n:„06
immediate:y in contact with their atubit'"
projects.

LAW INTELLIGENCE.

COURT OF KING'S BENCH, THURSDAY, Fgs• gg'

• • CHALLENGE.
At the Sitting of the Court this day the Al3°11;
NRY-GENERAL moved for Judgment on AO.°
0'
T 1.113 W TLEOOO, who had pleaded Guilty to 311 ;
dietment for sending a Challenge to
iSCOUnt SIDMOUTU. Mr. THISTLRWOOD rtti
from a slip of paper, that he had inadverten!,
pleaded Guilty, and that it was his wish to %cit„l,V
draw that plea, and plead Not Guilty.—The
TORNBY-GENERAL and COURT consented ;
the defendant, not being prepared with bail, °li
remanded.—He- will be tried at the sittings °ft r
Easter Term.

- -
THE LATE MURDERS AT GREENWICIL—The COrooer': 1:1.11
quest on the murders at. Greenwich met again vester"„'.;llo4
again adjourned, in the hope that before their ne%t "'„ pro'
the murderers would be apprehended The evidenes'one. of
duced yesterday gave a sort of clue for the detection; 40;
0
the witnesse haying' seen a man covered with blood vs''6olite
near the house on the Sunday morning. He gave a 4 e
description. which it is hoped will lead to the immediate
prehension of this'person

,ONION: Printed by..). B. CARSTAIRS, of No. t29' V. egt
Ormond-street. Queen-square; and published In'
SCRIPPS, of No. 7, South Molton-street, at
011;ce, No. 112, Strand ; where Adevtisements, 4-'"
Letters, &c. (pun-paid) must 'at ddressed.