Star.
London, England, 1830-03-19 00:00:00

duced without loss to the revenue. The effect of the reduction
with respect to sugar was an instance. By the reduction which
had taken place, one-fifth had been added to the consumption.
In 1822, he had himself urged the expediency of reducing the
taxation in Ireland, and in two years afterwards the Earl of
Liverpool reduced the whole of the assessed taxes, and
the tax on spirits. The effect of this diminution was an immediate
increase in the revenue—(hear, hear, hear). Parliament ought to
show itself alive to the present distress by some act, or some attempt
at alleviation. It was possible that the distress might be partly of
a temporary character. But that was a reason for going into an.
quiry to ascertain whether it was so or not. It was on the real
merits of the question that he should give his vote, and he had,
sufficient reliance on the good sense of the country to believe than
even if no practical good arose out of the committee, they would
still be grateful to parliament for feeling a sympathy in their dis-
tress. But upon some part of' the evils, at least, the committee
might have some suggestion to make to parliament.—{Hear.)
Lord ELLENBOROUGH explained.
The Duke of WELLINGTON said, he quite concurred with
the noble marquis who spoke last, in thinking that it was de-
sirable to adhere to the practice of parliament, which was in fa-
vour of conducting inquiry by committees. But in adhering to
the practice of parliament, they ought to adhere to it entirely.
And he believed that practice was, when noble lords moved for a
committee, to state specifically to the house the object which
they proposed by the motion. Such was the invariable rule : but
when, as in the present instance, every noble lord assigned a
different object of inquiry, it was fair to presume that there was
some other object besides the avowed one. His noble friend near
him had said that the object was an inquiry into the effects pro-
duced by taxation upon the productive industry of the country.
There was not one question of policy which did not come within
the scope of the committee, as described by the different
speakers. He had taken the trouble to write down the different
topics alluded to, and they amounted to no less than twenty, inclu.
ding, amongst others, the management of private property. The
currency question appeared In no less than three or four different
shapes. When he found a motion thus proposed and supported,
was it possible to think that it was proposed to answer all those,
and not the ulterior party purpose of embarrassing and even of
censuring his majesty's goveinment ? The noble baron was mis-
taken in supposing that the committee moved for that night, was the
bltne as the cotnmittee moved for and granted in another place.
There was this distinction between the two motions—that the corn.
mince moved for in another place was for a specific object—namely,
the consideration of poor.laws for Ireland, while the present motion
had nothing specific in its nature but that which was kept altogether
out of sight. A noble friend of his had complained that the same mi.
nisters who hail consented to the inquiry in another place, had ob-
jected to the same inquiry two years ago. That was true ; but the ob.
jection was that it went to establish poor.laws in Ireland—a measure
which the government was not prepared to adopt. The noble i
baron had maintained that the reduction of taxation ought to be
carried still farther. But the motion went farther than that;—it
showed a want of confidence in his Majesty's servants— In called upon
the llouse of Lords, after ministers had comedown to Parliament
with a large reduction of taxes, to put them upon their trial. But
the noble marquis had mistaken his noble friend lord Ellenbo-
rouelt, when he stated what would be the consequence of sp-
poeiting such a committee. The noble lord had witnessed the
conduit of his noble friend upon other committees, and he must
have known that it was always characterised by a conscientious
discharge of duty, and a determination to bring the subject
of invcs'igation to light. (Hear.) The noble marquis ap.
peared to have forgotten a component feature in the committee
appointed two years ago; he had forgotten that there was one ques.
tion excluded frorn their inquiry, because it was considered impos.
sible that they could come to an agreement respecting it. With all
due respect for the committee which so many noble lords had sup.
'ionic!, he would beg to remind the house that many had declared
their conviction that it could lead tone result. .% noble lord had said
it could not be expected that relief would be given. If not, then, he
would ask, why appoint the committee at all ? It could not be in.
tended that they should enter into all the questions introduced that
night, but it would either have no effect, or it would try thin ques.
tion. Did the ministers put truth into the mouth of the king in re.
sleet to the state of the country. He would say that the ministers
hid put nothing but truth into the King's speech. He believed
there was great distress in the country, but that it was not general,
and that it was gradually subsiding. But the noble toed had accused
them of saying that relief was beyond the controul of Parliament,
though he had himself acknowledged that relief was to be expected
from the appointment of a committee. The King's ministers had •
felt it to be their duty to propose a large reduction of taxation. That
reduction had been spoken of in handsome terms by she noble mar.
quis and other noble lords. He could assure the house that govern.
ment felt they had done no more than their duty, and that if they
thought it was necessary to have retained the taxes, they would not
have hesitated to make a proposition to that effect. He was happy
however, to be able to propose the reductions. He believed that
they would give great and substantial relief to the people, and that
they were so chosen as to take the smallest sum possible out of the
corers of the country, and put the largest suni possible into the.
pockets of the people. Ile would not at that late hour go into
the calculations which induced him to believe that at that moment
the reductions could not be carried further. All he should say
was, that as Govetnment had gone upon the principle of reducing
every office and establishment that could be spared, so would they •
proceed to reduce every expense which was not necessary. if
they could do so to any greater extent, the House might rest
assured that they would avail thetnaelves of the power. If
they could not they would say so candidly to Parliament. and
trust to them and to public opinion for the result. Ile would not
trouble the house any farther at this late hour. Had the motion been
confined to the poor-laws alone it might be a question how far the
consideration should be entertained. Bot even in that case he would
remind the house that the poor laws were already under the consi-
deration of parliament—that there were two or three reports of
ommittees before them at present, and that they and the pub.
he were already in possession of the facts of the case.—lle would
abs rewind them that some of the greatest men, including Mr.
I'itt and Mr. Windham, bad taken up that subject without effect,
he would appeal to them whether, under such circumstances, it did
not become Parliament to approach the subject with caution, and to
wait for the restoration of prosperity before they attempted to make
any arrangement on a subject so full of perplexity and difficulty.
Lord ST.SNHOPE said he should give his most cordial supping I
to the motion of the noble lord. The question was not so complicated
as the noble duke had described it, but was simply whether in the
pressen distressed state of the country, some inquiry ought not to
take place ? The taxes, and the power of paying them, would soon
pass away, and he was not sure but the constitution itself
would pass away. The people were is unexampled distress,
and they lost all confidence in one House of Parliament, while an
inquiry to their distress was called for in vain, and refused in the'
whet. lie thought it his duty to warn their Lordships of the con.
sequence of refusing to inquire into the distress of the people, even
though they could nut give adequate relief. He received letters
:rout many p:,rts of the country, stating the extent and the pressure
of the distress, which was also put before their Lordships in the pe-
titions laiJ on the table.
The Earl of ELDON, in explanation, said he had been min.
t 'ken. Ile did not say that It was not in the power of parliament
to remove some part of the distress, though not all.
The Duke of RICHMOND, in his reply, said he never bated
language so libellous in parliament as that of the noble president
art the board of conttoul ; and if there was now no act of par.
liament to repress such language, there should be an act passed
to such elect. The ministers did not dare to meet the tnoicet
directly by denying the distress ; hut they said it war got up .for
factious purposes, and for the purpose of tenting out the Milliner& lie denied that such was his MOWN, and if be wanted to turn out
ministers he would do it by a substantial motion and would not
resort to a subterfuge. lie belonged to a party which had hi, coun.
try's welfare much at heart. Ile would never suffer his vote to be
influenced by being called an ultra tory or a discontented pensionist. He was no radical reformer, but he hoped the house would
tat
girt radical reformers an additional argument, when their
ease was proved (for he had a right to assume they had proved
their cast,) by saying that, as the motion was an attack on ministers
therefore they would not inquire. lie had no motive, and his able
R
friends had no motive, but their country's good. This was a.
straightforeani motion, and he hoped the house would agree to it.
The house then divided—
Contents
Proxies .. .
Non-Contents .....
Proxies ..
--141
Majority sees.....
Tilt Route adjourned at lialfL. rest Two o'clock.
HOUSE OF COMTONS--TuvuspAy.
Sir R• FERGUSON resented a potion from the magistrates and
Tujiwison-C: plu(neliti of Kirkaldy, praying a free trade to China.
ion, with thesamc prayer, from the Chamber of Corn-
mew of Kokaidy.
wiiim EAST InDIA cosituresrge.
charter of ,presente4 the second repott or the committee on the
unlered to l'
prast India Company. Laid upon the table and
Sir M. S.
ART presented s petition Min 4,500 operative
of
w41117e" th " Ghaitawtcomplaining of distress, and preying the open.
Ing e trade to
the Thaw. China. The honoureble member observed, that
facturere than Were Ins better condition now an at this
ttee last year.o
Mr. HUME to
clew cf no ,e Apported the preser _Of the petition, although he
The mode Or giving releftut by reducing tasstion,
petition was brought up and laid upon the-table.