The Sun.
London, England, 1842-03-16 00:00:00

THE SoN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENIGI MARCH. 161 1842

bytery retired to another place, and there performed the ser-
vice. Most of the people who were there in the forenoon retuned
to their respective houses, but in the evesin; another body of
people came, and great tumult ensued. Now, under these cireum-
Minxes, use of two things occurred; either the Sheriffs were ab-
sent, or being present, deserted the r authority. his occurrence
took place on the 11th of November, and 'rem that time until
the 30th of the month, not a single step was taken %A id) respect
to this transaction. The consequence was, that in that part of
the country the people conceived they had gained a victory,
and exulted in the feeling that they had prevented the settle-
ment of the question, and had overawed the police. On the
30th of the month a meeting was convened and took place, and
resolutions were passed, requesting the Secretary of the Home
Department to take some steps on the subject. On the 21st
December an examination took place, and many witnesses were
examined, and ultimately four persons were committed to gao.
Er this outrage, end ore of those persons was the one who ha,
occupied the pulpit in the church. Those persons, he believed;
were now out on bail, and they would he b, ought to trial. He
wished to put it to the Government whether such things
ought to be tolerated. history showed that the people of Scot.
land were not easily roused to outrage; but history also told
them that in anything connected a ith their religious rites, they
could be excited to the utmost. extent, and being once excited,
were not easily put down. lie ( Sir A. L. Hay) had lived for
the last tivo years in the heart of the county where these
disturbances took place. He was not advocating either
one party or the other. lie believed they had both aced in-
consistently, and if so, then there was the greater necessity for
some steps to be taken for an eeuitable adjustment of the case.
The next was one that bad recently occur, ed, and he would
shortly state it, to point out the working of the system under
the present. law. The gentleman he had re-erred to had re-
cently departed this life. The person who had b.en ap-
pointed in his stead, he (S r A. Leith Hay) had known
for many years, and than whom there was not a more !earned
man to be found. He was presented to the parish by the
Duke of Richmond, who was the patron. It was urelerstoo
among the congregation that the appointment wa•
likely to cause a tumult, and in consequence of that he,
Majesty's Government ordered troops to pass from Aber.
deco, thirty or forty miles, for the purpose of hein
in the neighbourhood in case any violence was attempted.
Now this was a most extraordinary state of things. The
Noble Patron on whose property this parish was, and who R-as
the representative of the most powerful family in the north, he
himself, on a former occasion, stated it as his opinion that no
Howe of Parliament could, consistently with its duty, refuse to,
take this, subject into its consideration. That was the opinion
of the Duke of Richmond. Hit wag necessary to have a mi-
litary force in the neighbourhood to sheet the settlement of a
parochial minister, they might depend upon it the country was
not in a proper state. There were seven ministers repudiated b,
the General Assembly. These men were not held by the ecclesi-
astical law to have any connexion with the church. He himself was
the patron to two of the clergymen, and he wished to see a fair
settlement. There were no less than seventy ministers who
were considered to be under the ban of the General Assembly.
The notice he had given was for correspondence connected -.vitt
the settlement of the question between these ministers. Ilt
did not mean to say that the Government had acted contrail
to principle, but ha would say the Right I Ton. Baronet, the Se-
cretary of State for the Home Department, had not conduct&
the matter 111 a straiohtforWard scanner. In consequence e
the vacancy he had altuded to, a memorial was sent to him (Sir
A. L. Hay,) for the purpose of being presented to the Secre-
tary for the Home Department, and he did so, anti
the answer he received was, that they must make in-
quiries as to whether such a vacancy had taken place.
The filling up of the vacancy was pet off until the present Go-
vernment came into office, and when they did come into office.
he (Sir A. L. Ha) wrote to the Right Hon. Baronet, at the
head of her Majesty's Government; but in some time after the
Right Hon. Baronet replied, stating that he was not prepared
to say what her Majesty's Government would do. After that
it was useless to write again to the Right Hon. Baronet, ba
he (Sir A. L. Hay) thought that the wishes and wants of the
people should be attended to. He did not stand there to vin-
dicate the principle of intruding clergy upon the people con-
trary to their wishes. The people of Scotland undoubtedly
had a right to select their ehrgy, and they had a right ts
see who were the clergymen that the Government appointed
to take charge of their spiritual concerns. He would sustait
the laws as long as they existed, but to say that the Act o.
Queen Anne should be repealed and leave nothing in its stead
was a proposition which he would not support; at the
same time it was his determination on all occasions
to support the people -in their rights to see who.
their clergymen should be.. He thought he should 'he
degenerating from his duty if he did not do what he had then
done ; and in conclusion be should entreat the Right Hon.
Baronet to settle the question boldly, and according to the
dictates.of reason, of justice, and of common sense.
An Hors. Meateex on the Ministerial benches asked tit
Hon. and Gallant Officer to- explain what he considered th
" dictates of reason, of justice, and of common sense."—
( Much laughter.)

Sir JAMES GRAHAM never had approaehed any subject
with greater delicacy or hesitation than that which had been
brought forward by the Hon. and Gallant Officer,_ because he
felt that a great and heavy responsibility rested upon him
(Sir James Graham); he felt that responsibility more deeply
lest any thing which should fall from him on that oscasiot
should aggravate or increase the evils which already existed.
When notice had been given of the motion of the Hon. and
Gallant Officer, very great doubts were entertained about it;
however, he (Sir J. Graham) remembered when Sir Georg.
Sinclair brought forward a motion upon the subject, in 1824
the Hon. and Gallant Officer (Sir A. L. Hay) was one of his
most strenuous opponents. The last occasion the lion. and
Gallant Officer addressed the House was on the 9th of June,
1834; then the Hon. and Gallant Officer stated that he had
several petitious to present from Scotland, and that the prayer
of those petitions was that no alteration should be made in th,
Church Law of Scotland. Upon that occasion the Hon. and
Gallant t Meer stated that the most rational and the most re,
spectable people in Scotland were not only attached to the
Established Church there, but also to the way in which
that establishment was conducted. The Honourable and
Gallant Officer was then satisfied with the state of the law,
and had passed a glowingeulogium upon the Church of Scotland.
He (Sir J. Graham), though not a member of the Church of
Scotland, should say that Trent his earliest age he had had an-
opportunity of knowing and seeing the influence which tha
Church exercised upon every ;lass of society, and he was bourn
to say that he could never speak of that Church without fed-
ing the moat deep and marked respect for it.—( Hear, hear. )
He had always seen the clergy of that Church contented with
very moderate endowments--( Hear)—and though their en-
dowments were moderate, they were ever active and efficient-
in the discharge of their duties.—( Hear.) The clergy of
that Church were a most exemplary body of men.— ( Hear.)
and no one could doubt that they had exercised a most salutary
influence upon the character, the morals, and the habits of thi
people of Scotland, which made them rsmarkable as the most
enlightened and moral people of the whole world.--( Hear.
He (Sir J. Graham), therefore, felt bound to entertain tin
deepest feeling of respect for the lergy of the Church of Scot-
land ; at the same time, he regretted to see that very unhappy
differences had occurred in it.—(Cries of " Hear, hear,")
Ile perfectly agreed with the Honourable and Gallen'
Officer that if it were possible, those differences should be put •
an end to as soon as possible, and he should say he never
listened to a speech with more attention than he had listened
to that of the lion. and Gallant Officer; but he should par-
don him (Sir J. Graham) if he added that he had never
heard a speech from which he had derived less sat sf et.ion
than he had derived from it.—( Hear and laughter.) The lion.
and Gallant Officer said it was impossible that things could be
left as they were ; that something should be done ; but what
that " something" should be the Hon. and Gallant Officer di,
not give the least inkling or idea. The Gallant Officer talked
of the late Government an.l the debates upon th,
subject in 1840, with the speeches of Lord Aberdeen,
the Duke of Wellington, and the Right Honour-
able Baronet at the head of her Majesty's Government.
However, the Hon. and Gallant Officer had dropped some •
thing, in which he (Sir ./.• Graham) agreed. He said that
the question might have been settled three years ago, much
better than it could be settled now.—(Chters from tire Mini-
sterial benches.) That which was possible and wise three
years ago, might be utterly impossible and impracticable now.
The Hon. and Gallant Officer referred to what Lord Aberdeen:
said, but he (Ed nut allude to what Lord Aberdeen did ; what-
ever Lord Aberdeen said, he recommended the late Govern-
ment to settle the question as soon as possible, and, not con
tent with that advice, he introduced a measure, in the hop
of settling it—a measure which, though it was calcu-
lated to satisfy moderate men upon all sides, did not
meet with or receive very encouraging suppr t. The Duki
of Wellington said, in 1840, that it moderate counsels were
attended to, the question would have been settled, but it was
because there was no disposition to attand to moderate noun
eels that the question could not he settled. So it War that th
H ght Hon. Baronet at the head of her Majesty's Government
said, in 1840, that an attempt should be made to settle tin
question, and, acting upon that opinion, he supported the
motion of Lord Aberdeen. It was necessary to remind the
House, that in 1841 the Right lion. Baronet (Sir 11. Peel,
had given the same advice which he bad given in 1840. The
Hon. and Gallant Officer said, that the question was whether
the law should be obeyed or not. Upon that subject there
could be no doubt.. He (Sir J. Graham) entirely agreed
with the Gallant Officer, that the law should be obeyed;' it was
the determination of her Majesty's Government that it should
be obeyed; and it was their resolution to insist with firmness
but without violence, that the laws should be obeyed. The non.
and Gallant Officer 'also said that the existing laws could
not be co-existent with the., law of Anne ; in that he (Sit
.1. Graham) also entirely' agreed. Ile also agreed that the
Veto Act could not preva 1 over the law of the land, but the
lion. and Gallant Gentleman aid it wss necessary to legisla'i
promptly and finally on the subject, and lie asked whether her
Majesty's Government intended to do so new? there were
any doubts on certain points in the law of the land
there were at present actions of the greatest impo-tance de-
pending in the Scotch Courts, and a ..ceision upon those actions
would go far to settle the question in dispute. If there was any
time when it was more inopportune than another to legislate upon
the subject, it was the present moment. :The decision of
those actions would go far to ascertain the state of Vie
law ; and certainly it was, for many reasons, inopportune for
the Legislature now to interpose. The lion. and Gallant Offi-
cer stated that violence should not be allowed to triumph over
the laws of the land. In all that he (Sir J. Graham) agreed.
The Hon. and Gallant Office would insinuate that there was
something variabli in the conduct of the Government in the
three or four particular cases to which he had alluded.
the permission of the House he would shortly touch on those
cases. In the case of Culsalmond, from the violence of the
proceedings, the civil force had heel overborne, and the Hon.
and Gallant Officer had complained that it was seine time be-
fore steps were taken to bring the effenders on that occasion to
justice. But the regular steps had been taken, and four offend-
s were now about to take their trial before the Supreme
Court of Scot'and, and, pending their trial, he (Sir James
Graham) would not prejudice the course of justice. The
Hon. and Gallant Officer had mentioned the Presbytery
of Strathbogie ; in that ease a violent settlement had been
anticipated; and the Government resolved that violence
should not triumph over law. Then again, the Hon.
and Gallant Member had referred to Elgin, and he (Sir
J. Graham) had certainly been surprised to hear that he made
any objection to the course which he ( Sir J. Graham) had
pursued on that presentation. The Hen. and Gallant Officer
had passed a very just culogium on the manner it) whic't
his (Sir J. Graham's) Right Hon. Friend (Sir R. Peel)
had distributed the patronage of the Church of Scotland.
On the lath of August., 1333, on the debate on Hobkirk pa-
rish, the Hon. and Gallant Officar said I cannot help
taking this opportunity. as a Member from Scotland, of ex-
pressingunqualified approbation of the way in which
the ra
lightllon. Member for Tamworth exercised the' church
patronage in Scotland when in his hands. It appears that
in this instance there was adivision among the her;tors, six
being on one side, and three on the other. Under thes:
circumstances, the rule laid do-en by the former Secretary
of State became applicable, namely, that unless the
heritoss could agree in the nomination, the living'
should not be givers to either candidate." There was a de-
cided division of opinion amongst the herifors of Elgin, and
he (Sir J. Graham) had acted on the principle laid down by
the lion. and Gallant Officer himself, and bad nominated a
stranger. That stranger had not been rejected. He, on the •
part of the Crown, had presented an Individual, who he had
reason to believe was s.n et cry ground eligible, not for patron-
age, but in the discharge of the sacred duty which devolved
upon him, and he (Sir J. Graham) had made that election
on the best information which he could obtain. That strae
ger had had an harmonious settlement in Elgin, and
the principle which the Honourable and Gallant Officer re-
comm-ended, and on which his Right Hon, Friend had so long,.

_ .•
hscl met with the approbation of the inhabitants.
Now he was quite prepared to say, that every effort having
teen made by her 11Iajesty's Cove:lament, during the recess,
is it had been made before, in the year 1840, 'by the Earl of
.kberdeen. to settle the question—that was to say, by a de-
claratory 1 iw, by which there might be reasonable txpecta-
don of obtaining the sanction of moderate men, and gene-
rally the support of ti e people of Scotland, and having reason
to believe that no such measure could be introduced with
any prospect of success, her Majesty's Government had
come is the decision—and they c'eeply regretted there could
be
at
permanent adjustment of this great ques-
tion—that necessary not to attempt legislation on the
-übj, et, but to stand by the law of the land, as it had been de-
prese it present
was no
de-
fined by the Supreme Court. On the vi hobs,. therefore, after
the best attention to the question, and after the utmost deli-
beration which his sense of duty directed to it, agreeing, as he
did, with the remark made by Lord Melbourne, that he was
satisfied with the law as it Low stoo3, he (Sir J. Graham)
was prepared to defend it on the responsibility of the Go-
vernment, and would not consent to a delegation of the re-
sPon-ibility -to a Committee of that House. Having 'said
thus much, he should sit down with saving he could not con-
sent to the motion of the Hon. and. Gallant- Member opposite.
—( llear, hear. )
Air. FOX AULE said he,took a very different view of the
law, as at present established, from that entertained- by the
Right lion. _Veronet who had just sat down. The feeling tha
ead been opened up to-night was one of such vast extent, tl:at
n addressing himself to the question—perhai s it would be the
ally opportunity he might have of addressing himself to it—the
onlyopportunity, because he had learnt, from what had fallen
rum the Right Hon. Baroset, that it was not the intention
,f Government to attempt in any wsy to legislate on this sub-
ject; and as he (Mr. Fox Maule) anticipated no snecs s at an
attempt at leg:slation without the. support of the Government,
-he party, if party they called it, but which he denominated the
Church of Scotland itself, maintained that by the established
'aiv of Scotland, from the year 1567 to the present year, the
Presbytery hada distinct independent spiritual jurisdiction se-
cured to them by Act of Parliament, with which, according to
the Act of Union, neither Court of Law; nor Parliament itself,
sould interfere. He completely concurred in that opinion, and
if the House would permit, he would trace the various statutes
through which this power was acceded to the Church. In the
year 1567, the first year of the Ger.eral Assembly of the ancient
Oresbyterian Church of Scotland, which was held to take steps
Or the framing of articles on the subject of jurisdiction; and to
submit them to the Parliament, one of those articles was this
—" That, to this our Kirk be granted, and by this Parliament
secured, such privileged jurisdiction and authority as appertains
to the true Kirk, and that no authority be acknowledged other
than that allowedby this Kirk." This evidently appeared to
have been the foundation of the Act of the year 1567, and
that Act proceeded to state, that by the King's permission;
and with the advice of the Prince Regent and the three Es-
ates of Parliament, no place of worship was legal other than that
Ithe favour of God established in the realm, and that no juris-
tic-ion other than that of the Church could be held in the
Church. The Act then set far.h other articles relating to
piritual jurisdiction. Such was the Act which first settled the
si.eshyterian Church by the statute 111 V of the land. In 1579
.hat Act was ratified. In 1581, the Act of 1567 was also re-
ified and approved. 'I hen came the Act of 1592, which in
se 116:h chapter also ratified, that Act. Here, then, we had
-he undoubted establishment of this independent and spiritual
-urisdiction. But then had our ancestors no idea that it was
possible that this spiritual jurisdiction might interfere with the
civil jurisdiction? He thought they had, for, in the very
text chapter of the same Act, the statute provided that, where
he Civil Courts refused to accept the presentee of a
iatron, the stipend should be given to the patron, and
'it it should be lawful for the patron to retain the

tole funds of the benefice in his own liands.—( Hear, hear,

iy this it clearly gave the power to the Church On'the one
,and of appointing and ordaining its own Ministers, and on
he other hand it gave a distinct satisfaction to the patron for
he injury done to him if his presentee should be rejected He
bought this Act established clearly the independent jurisdic-
ion of. the Church. But they might be told that no case ever
eccurredin Scotland where the civil benefice and the cure of
sou7s were separate. lie thought he had an opinion or two on
hat subject which bore upon the question. The first was
in the year 1798, where the patron attempted to stop the or-
dinatioa of another man—this the Court would not allow. The
next case was in the year 1749, when an application to a
similar effect was made, and the Court would not meddle
with it ; accordingly the Judge, on that instance, stated that
these was no law in Scotland to compel the Presbyterian
to maintain the presentee. Lord Kaimes said that the man
appointed by the faction was dc facto• the minister of the pa-
rish. Nothing could be more clearly laid down up to the
year 1749 than that the Court of Session distinctly recognised,
by their independent spiritual jurisdiction, that Church Courts
might bring a person into a parish, and the Civil Courts, on
the other hand, could not alter the appointment in any way,
but the civil benefice would be separate from the cure of souls,
anti the parish would be left in the somewhat strange position
of one man drawing the stipend and another serving the cure.
Such Was the law of Scotland, and they had to deal with the
law as established. He would now follow out the Acts from
1592 ; the Act of James rescinded the Acts of 1549, but they
were again resumed by Charles the Second in 1562.
He would pass over that, and come to the time
when the Presbyterian religion was established at
the Revolution. In 1689 Episcopacy was abolished, and in
1690 all the acts relative to the Presbyterian religion, establish•
g it on the footing which, as had been stated, recognised all
is privileges, were again passed, and became, as now, the
established law of the land ; and no act had been passed inter-
tug with that till the act, commonly called the Act of
Queen Anne, and he must say there never was an act of
l'arliament so foully imposed on the people as this Act. Ile
must say that the more he looked at that Act, the more he
considered the character of those who passed it, and the more
to considered the means by which it was passel, he could not
help having a . conviction that this assault on the
- liureh of Scotland was in point of fact a conspiracy on
,he part 'of Queen Anne and those who passed it,
-o overturn the Protestant religion of this country,
dow had this Act been passed ? It was brought into the
Commons and passsed through it so rapidly that there was
lot time between the bringing of it in and the passing of it, to
eommunicate with Scotland, and not till after the Bill was in
he Peers had the General Assembly of the Church of Scot-
land the power of being heard by petition.—(Herr; hear.) It
was read a second time in the Peers, and one or two
Ministers were heard on the question. But did the Lords
Lake time to reconcile the sta'ements of those gentlemen. No.
l'hey committedit, reported it, and• read it a third time that
evening. It appeared to him that this act of treachery
so the peeple of Scotland was in direct contradiction
o the treaty of the Union, and he must certainly say,
that any person bringing forward the repeal of the statute,
would have the strongest possible ;rounds for bringing forward
such a motion. He thought that, in arguing this question, In
was bound to deal openly and honestly with the House. He
did not say that he, for one, was vet prepared for
the total abolition of the Act. He thought that
a middle course should be pursued, and he should be
.nxious to see the Act passed by the General Assembly in
1834, become the law of the laud. With respect to the
tuchterarder case, he was ready to argue it, and he was sorry
the Attorney-General was not in his place, that he might hear
vim out, as he had been borne out by Lord Cottenham
hat that question as it had been decided by the Civil Courts
was not a legal decision. It decided that the Church could
ake Mr. Young, but no more, and according to the Act of
1592, cap. 117, which continued to be in force a
,his moment, the effect woeld be that Mr. Yount:
would be entitled by the civil law to draw the stipend, but the
party appointed by the Presbytery would be the person to ad-
minister to the cure-of souls. It was a question which they
never could consent to refer to any civil tribunal, and it
was the reference of the question to civil tribunals
hat had forced the General Assembly, in defence of their sacred
rights and inviolable privileges, to adopt that course which
they had pursued, stimulated merely by a sense of duty, and
not by any factious motives ; and, he hoped that whatever
might be said out of doors, Htin. Members would approach this
pestion with caution, and look at it in its fair bearings, to
say when the line of dul led one party or when the line
of supposed duty led another party. With regard to the progyes
of this question he deeply regretted the determination ex-
pressed by her Majesty's government, not to legislate on that
subject. He did lint think that was es ilculased to satisfy the
people, who had looked for an extensive Measure at their
hands. The Duke of Wellington hat said that the mo-
derate party were defeated ; a s'imilar expression had
also fallen, ha thought, from the Right Honourable
Baronet; but he hoped that Honourable Members would not be
led away by any such expressions, but that they would look to
the moderate men in the Church of Scotland. They were
the men who held the power in the Church, and they knelt
what was the proper jurisdiction of the Ecclesiastical Court,
of Scotland. 'I hat lion. Gentleman said that during the recess
every attempt had been made by Government to bring thfs
matter to a satisfactory conclusion ; and while the Govern-
ment had held intercourse with various parties on the sub-
ject, he believed that from the commencement of the inter-
course both parties were labouring under a mistaken idea.
When those terms were explained to the Right Hon. Baronet
the negotiations came to an end, it being evident that the
parties could not agree. Here he ( Mr. Fox Manic) desired
it to be understood, that in contending for the rights of the Non-
Intrusion party, he was most anxious that a just regard should
be paid to the influence and interests of the patrons. None
would more -determinedly than he oppose an undue assump-
tion of authority. The vacancy at Glasgow, respecting which,
the excitement was so great thati he Government had had to
order troops into that neighbourhood, showed how the state o:
the Church now occupied the public mind in Scotland. If the
Government wonted a proof of what such things might lead to,-
he would Filer thein to the year 1734, when the Act of Anne
first came into operation, and when, in consequence, an enqr-
mous schism took place; now, if the Government persevered
in its present course, a much greater schism would be the re-
sult, and, at last, the Dissenters from the Church of Scotland
would be as the Dissenters from the Established Church in Ire-
land, more numerous than its members. He would admit that
the Government might have settled this question if the parties
on both sides could have agreed on the nomination princ;ple—
( Hear, hear)-s--but still, he must observe, that the late Govern-
ment acted on the principle of administering the Crown patron-
age with strict attention to the wishes of the parishioners-1
principle which the present Government did not imitate.. On'
this principle of 100 rt hph,, except
the r
ilsateeGot
Government acted in bestowing the
one or two, the difficulties of
which could be easily explained,--(near, hear.) Tho Right
Hon. Baronet would have the House think he had acted in like
manner since he came to the Home Department, at least, he said
he acted on the plan followed by the Right Hon. Baronet
at the head of the Government while he was in the Home-
patronage
office. Now, the case of Elgn furnished a complete contrast.
When a vacancy occurred in 1824, e hen the Right Hon
Baronet, the Member for Taroworth was Home Secretary,
the Right Hon. Gentleman aced in
_accordance with th,
wishes of the people, as might be seen by referring to Mr.
Peel's correspondence with Colonel Grant on that occasion.
Now the Right lion.
Baronet, the present Home Secretary,
had sent to him the duplicate of a petition which had been sent
Lord Normanby, respecting
to his predecessor, the presenta-
tion to Elgin. That petition was staged,_ in the first piece, be
three-fourths of the communicants, heads of families; se-
condly, by all the e ell • rs except one ; thirdly, by the Magis-
trates and Town Council ; fourthy, by,-
lithe majority of borough
proprietors : fifthly, by six out of eight of the heritors repre-
senting 4,66e1. nut of a r, ntal of 6,3391. ; yet the Right
Honoerable Barcnet said he followed - in the foot-
steps of his predecessor.—(uear, hear,) Now h's col--
league could not have made an _ appointment giving
more dissatisfaction to the people than that of Mr. Willie. If
that gentleman were received harmoniously, as the Right lion.
Baronet said, it was because the Dissenters did not wish, by:
giving in their protests, to excite a riot. All he r.
Fox Mettle) contended for wls, that the feelings of
the people of Scotland ought to be respected. Now; to show
how those feelings had been disregarded, he would take the
case of the late Mr. Tyrrell, the,:Secretary of the Presbytery of
Cupar. To the deep regret of all who knew him, that gentle-
man was suddenly withdrawn from the world on the hat of
February; on the Bth, contrary to all usage, the Gover-
ment presented his successor. This act, so shocking to the
feelings of the clergy and the laity, had excited in
the public mind the strongest impression against the
Right Hon. Baronet; indeed it was to be feared that that im-
pression was indelible. The Right Hon. Baronet's rule
seemed to be to distribute the patronage of the
Crown in the
Church of Scotland as he alone thought
,preper, and on his
responsibility as a Minister—(" Ne, !le,' from Sir James
Graham.) Well, then, he .(Mr. Fox Mettle) hoped the
Right Hon. Baronet would seen prove the eontrary to the
people of Scotland in a practical manner; for,
hitherto, not
.one of all his presentations, except that of Lochlie, to.

• • .se
which he would presently advert, had been .made ex-
cept on the principle of studious indifference and publieepinion.
There were only one or two points in the speech of his Hon.
and Learned Friend to Which he Wished to allude, His Leaened
Friend had referred to the cases of Barnard and the perish of
Stsatbbogie. He did not intend to go over al the dispute,
but if the whole ease were to be examined, he believed it would
. be found that neither the General Assembly nor the Coinmis-
sion had, in any one instance, broken any decree of the Civil
Court, except such as it was impossible they could observe.
In.every civil right they had bowed implicitly to the decision of
the Civil Court, but they cannot, they would net, and
he would add, they dared not bow to the decision of a Civil.
Court, if it presumed to interfere in Ecclesiastical matters.
Would any one say that if the Court of Session claimed a ri ;ht
of jurisdiction over the Court of Exchequer, that it would be
for a moment listened to ? Had not all the Sus.reme Courts of
Justice their own bounds? The Court of Session bad no more
right to intrude itself within the pale of the jurisdiction of the
Ecclesiastical Court, than the Ecclesiastical Court had to in•
terfere with the administration of the Civil law He denied
that the Ecclesiastical body had -interfered with matters of
civil right at all, and he would maintain his
opinion on the authority of the best lawyers of
Scotland. The gees:ion had never been tried. But
he was ready to p •Tit any credit he !+essessod on this asser-
don, that when it did come to the ultimate Court of Appeal, it
would be proved that the Church had a juridic ion within
itself with which no Court of law can interfere. He referred
to the condition which the terms of the Unien imposed on the
Monarch of upholding the integrity of the constitution of the
Church of Scotland, and proceeded to state that though it
would not be possible to accede to the motion, yet he was glad
it had been brought forward, as it had given an opportunity to
many Scotch Members to express their opinion on the subject and
it also gave him an opportunity of impressing on her Majesty's
Government the extent to which this question was going on
The difficulties of the question might require to be en-
countered by a legislative measure, hut in any step that
might be taken he would entreat the Government to en •
deavour to soothe the feelings of the people of Scotland, and
show them at least, if they could not give them all they
wanted, they would be supported in the belief that in the
appointment of parish ministers no one would be intruded on
them without their own consent.
Mr. A. COCHRANE, after referring to the importance of
the subject, and stating his persuasion that the Church of
Scotland could not be shaken without the Church of England
being injured, said he should not refer to the discipline of the
early church as connected with the first foundation of the
Church of Scotland; he considered it immaterial to his argu-
ment whether the Church founded in lona' had any
iffinity in its discipline to the Church of Scot-
land ; nor should he allude on the one hand
to the cruelties practised upon the early Church Reformers, or
the treasons alleged against the Knoxes and Melvilles of the
Reformation. It was a question • f fact and of law, and as
such he should treat it.. The Right Hon. Gentleman on
rising, said he should refer to some acts on this question, but
lie (Mr. C.) had felt some degree of astonishment, and more
!uriosity to see hoe' the Right Hon. Gentleman's opinion
could be borne out by those Acts. He had made some extracts
'rom the same Acts, and his opinion was very different. The
Act of 1567, which as it never received the sanction
of the Queen, but was only signed by the Regent Murray,
.ie hardly knew whether it could be carried out as a legitimate
Act.—( A laugh ) That Act provided that the examination
of the minister was in the power of the Church, reserving the
presentation to the ancient patron. Other Acts gave an appeal
to the Presbytery, and by the Act of 1590, the presentation was
vested in the heritors of the kirk, but it ► absolute veto was
riven to the people. He briefly referred to the Act of 1712,
sod argued that the Church of Scotland did not proceed on the
Authority of Acts of Parliament, but, upon their own books of
discipline, which had never received the sanction of the State,
and if they considered those books alone, the Church of Scotland
had pro'eably some grounds for proceeding as they did. By the
Bill proposed by Lord Aberdeen full powers was given to the
eeople to make objections to be referred to the Presbytery,
with consequent appeal to the Ecclesiastical Court. That
Bill, however was refused, and he trusted the Govern-
.nent was determined to see the present law carried out.
The Church of Scotland had in 1640 refused an establishment,
but having once admitted it an establishment they had no
right now to act in opposition to it. He was gratified to find
that the Right Hon. Gentleman and the Government were
determined to adopt such measures as should prevent the law
being set at defiance.
Mr. A. CAMPBELL said that he little thought, the first
time he should be called on to address the House, it would be
en an occasion when he must utter li's most decided determine.,
don to oppose the Government, which he had done so much, in
his humble way, to place in the position which they noveoccu-
pied.—(Opposition cheers.) He trusted the House would
bear with a few remarks from him, which he
felt himself called on to make, in consequence of
the speech of the Right Honourable Baronet at the
head of the Home Department. The Right Honourable
Baronet had been compelled to avow his determination to put
down the Church of Scotland. The Right Hon. Gentleman
had declared, in Most distinct and emphatic terms, that he
would enforce the law against the majority of the Church of
Scotland. Now he (Mr. A. Campbell) would tell the Right
Hon. Baronet that he could not put down the Church of Scot-
land—that he would be defeated, and that he could not fulfil the
threat which he had that day thrown out in that House. The
united force of Scotland would be against him, and whenever
the united voice of a nation was raised against an act of op-
preation, it would and must prevail. The other parts of the
empire would join, too, with the oppressed in asserting their
rights. At that late hour of the night he would not trespass
at any length upon the attention (:f the House. With respect
to the Acts of Parliament cited by the Right lion. Gentleman
(Mr. F. Maule) tespeeting the Church of Scotland, he (Mr.
Campbell) thought that the Right Hon. Gentleman would '
have done well, if in so citing these Acts he had also stated
that there were many clauses in the Act of security passed at
the Union, which showed how well they knew what would happen
when they gave up their own Presbyterian Parliament, and
committed it into the hands of Episcopalian members. It was
then distinctly stated that rho Government of the Church of
Scotland should continue in the condition in which it then was.
He regretted very much to hear what had fallen from the Hon.
Member who had just sat down (Mr. A. Cochrane). When
that Honourable Gentleman's father had come to canvass
Greenock, he had very clear notions on this mat-
ter. The Hon.' Gentleman talked of the treasons of Knox
and Melville—names which would be illustrious in tile page of
history, when the Hon. Gentleman's would have gone to per-
dition—(A laugh, and cries of " Order")—and in speaking of
the veto the Hon. Gentleman had had the audacity—(Cries of
" Order, order")—well then the ignorance—(Laughter, and
renewed cries of " Order")—to add that it was a veto without
appeal. The Members who gave a veto were compelled to de-
clare that they gave it from no factious motive. Now if that
were an absolute veto he knew not what was meant by the word;
he trusted that when Scotch members felt themselves called
upon by an imperative sense of dusy, to state their opinions on
this subject, they would be listened to with patience and at-
tention. The subject was one of vital importance, not only to
the people of Scotland, but actually to the cause of spiritual
religion.—(Hear, hear, hear.) As a non-intrusions t, lie
he had suffered much in the estimatien of a great many
of his friends for his silence. lie had held his peace be-
cause her thought the Government, which had in many in-
stances acted wisely, would have pursued a very different
course from that which it had pursued with respect to the
Church of Scotland.
Mr. COCHRA NE skid, as the Hon. Gentleman had thawed
him with ignorance, he begged to say one or two words in expla-
nation. According to a deci4on of the Church there was
undoubtedly an appeal to the Presbytery. In 1834 Dr. Chal-
mers and other ministers changed their views, and said—" No,
we will not have an appeal to the Presbytery, but every one
who forms part of the majority, shall state that he is actuated
by no fact ous views." As the law now stood, there was an
absolute veto vested in the majority.
Mr. CAMPBELL said that if any member declared himself
injured, he might appeal to the Presbytery, from the Presbytery
to the Synod of the province, and from that to the Supreme
Coot t.

Mr. CIJMMIN BRUCE said it had been stated that the
Presbytery had changed their opinions on this subject. He
could show, that from having been the advocates of State en-
lowment, they had become the advocates of the
voluntary principle, and no connexion whatever with
the State. Having fOTTIe knowledge of the circum-
stances, he felt bound to rise in his place and de.
elare, tint it was impossible for any man to di charge the
duties which devolved upon him more conscientiously, and with
greater anxiety to consult the good of the, people than his
R;ght Hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Home De-
partment. The clergyman of the parish of Elgin, wearied
by the harassing discussions which were taking place,
determined to accept of smaller remuneration and leave the
town. The moment his determination was known an active
canvas was_commenced in favour of a Non-Intrusionist
ter.

It had been stated by Lord Moncrieff before the Com-
mittee, that those who were anxious for a change in the law
were always more zealous than those who were contented with
the law as it stood. There was a great division of
feeling in the town of Elgin ; but he could confidently state
that by far the greater number of respectable persons in the
parish were opposed to the views of the violent Non-intro-
siouists. But the opposite party having taken the field be-
fore them had induced a number of persons residing in a
separate district, and who never, on ordinary occasions,
voted in matters connected with the parish, to originate the
petition in favour of the Non-Intrusionist candidate. That
petition was signed by 132 persons, whilst 92 signe I and
supported the other candidates. What, under these &mum-
stauces, was the coarse pursued by his Right Hon. Friend
the Secretary of State for the Home Department. That he
might not give offence to either party he determined to pass
by both the candidates and choose some other person to
perform the duties of miniaer. lie had had some cor-
reipondence with his night Honourable Friend on the
subject, and in the course of that correspondence his Highs
Honourable Fiiend stated that no political consideration would
be allowed by him to aff-ct his decision on such a subject—
( Hear, hear.) That dec!aration was received with the greatest
satisfaction in the parish. His Right Hon. Friend sought out a
person whom he thought fitted to discharge the duties. Great
excitement existed in the parish; if either party had been pre-
ferred, the other would have been dissatisfied. His Right Hon.
Friend, however, appointed a gentleman who, he was happy to
say, had been received in the parish with such unanimity, that
no attempt had been made to exercise a veto upon him ; there
was a general feeling that he was discharging his duties with
advantage to the parish, and with advantage to the cause of
religion.--( Hear, hear.) Such was the plain statement of the
exercise of the Crown patronage by his Right lion. Friend, in
the parish of Elgin. He must say that politics had bi en mixed
up to a great extent with the conduct of the Non-Intrusionists;
as fir as they were cmcerned, it was a mere political question.
He was astonished to hear the taunt thrown out against the
Government, because they were determined to uphold the law
,of the land.—( Hear, hear.) It was complained that they did
cot bring forward a new law, to settle the question in Scot-
land. But what encouragement had the majority of the Scot-
tish Church given to Government to undertake the settlement
of the case? Before they were entitled to call for a new law,
they had a right to show their readiness to obey the law as it
now stood, or that they would be ready to obey any new en-
actment which might be passed. They had put forward pre-
tensions as an ecclesiastical body, such as never had been heard
of, or advanced under any reformed Church—pretensions which
had only been put forwsrd daring the ecclesiastical tyranny
of the tenth century .--( Hear, hear.) They claimed a right
t, declare what was the civil, and what was the Ecclesiastical
law, and to determine what was the civil interpretation of a
civil statute. What did such an assumption of power involve?
It involved this—that ,an unfortunate individual inigkt be
punished, on the one hand, for a violation of the law as de-
clared by the supreme civil tribunal ; and that, on the other
hand, he might be punished for a violation of the same law,
accirding to the interpretation pat upon it by the Ecclesiasti-
cal Court. That had actually taken plats in the case of the
Strathbogie ministers, who, because they had declared their
determination to obey the civil law, had been punished by the
Ecclesiastical Court, and subjected to the most cruel and
unjust psrsecution which men had ever undergone.---( Hear,
hear.) He believed that a large portion of the
Ministers to the Scottish Church were disposed to yield obeli-
cues to the law, but that they were afraid to own their real
sentiments. But he for on felt no such fear, because, if his
seat depended upon the course he might take upon that subject,
he would throw his seat to the winds, and openly express the
sentiments which he sincerely entertained —( Hear, hear.)
Seven most respectable ministers had declared their readiness
to obey the lass of the land as it stood unrepealed upon the
statute-book; and what had happened? The General As-
sembly of the Church or Scotland, althotigh a large portion of
their body, was not affected 'by the same strange hallucination

as the majority, suspended those ministers for the course they
had pursued. -Ile had Slated these, factts for the purpose ofiusti-
fying the-Gentlemen for their conduct on the subject. He did
not mean to say that the Act of Queen Anne was in all respects
d perfect Act, It might be very desirablethat that Act should
be reconsidered; but he thought that before they legislated
anew upon the matter, the Church of Scotland, by manifesting
its readiness to obey the law, should put them in a pesiiion to
do so. The Church of Scotland, even now, was in- ested with
great poWer, inasmuch of it had the sale right to empower any
parties, in the first instance, to act as Ministers. Ile would
cite an instance of the abuses to which their present assump-
tion of a predominsnce was calculated to give rise. In the pa-
ri,ll of Daviot, in Invernesshire, which con-istid of a popu'a-
tion of 1,700 souls, there were but nine communicants who
claimed the right to sanction the appointment of a minister ; of
these nine -communicants six . refused to receive an urexc,p-
tionable presentee of the Crown, and out of those six three
could not write their names. Yet, in compliance with the
veto law of the General Assembly, those six old men were able
to keep 1,700 snide without a minister for the last three years.
He thought it was unnecessary for him to say a word more upon
the subject ; but as allusion had been made to the year 1640 he
hoped the House would excuse him for reeding a passage
from Mr. Chalmers, who wrote a history of the rebellion in
Scotland in the reign of James the Sixth. The Hon. Member
then read a very long extract describ;ng the Vac of the Church
Of Scotland at that time; that there was a strong feeling in
favour of the Presbytcrian Church, which was strengthened by
the attempts of Charles to impose Episcopacy upon the
Scotch nation, which was one of the causes that
brought his neck to the block. After drawing a picture
of the state of society at that period, the pas age
went on to say that the community were possessed of
enthusiasm, and the clergy became masters of the whole
power of the State. A few laymen united with the clergy,
formed themselves into a Committee, and _exm.cied all the
functions of the State, and it was cm icus, continued the Hon.
Member, that the historian described the Duke of Argyll sit-
ting in the midst of them like the divinity of some pagan wor-
ship, apparently inert and insensible, but the prime mover of
all their designs. Such was the extract that came under his
eyes, and it was singular that it was a descendant of that Duke
of Argyll who had introduced a Bill on the subject in another
place. He believed the motives of the present Duke of Ar-
gyll were those of pure patriotism and benevolence.—( Hear,
hrar.) He knew his intentions were to compose the dissen-
lions of the Church of Scotland, but he believed he was mis-
taken. He gave him 'credit for the most benevolent intentions
and Christian charity.—( Hear, hear.) He thanked the House
for the patience with which it had listened to him, and the
Bight Hon. Baronet for the manner in which he met the mo-
tion before them.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. DUFF said he hoped the House wou'd excuse him for
rising to repel a charge made on a relative of his, Lord Bute,
by the Hon. .Gentleman.—( Hear.) He accused a relation of
his, though he well knew the charge to be false.—( Order.).
The SPEAKER 'said that the Hon. Member had used
words which he must know were unparliamentary, and which
he must retract.
Mr. DUFF had no olijec.tion to r,.tract the expression, if out
of order.—( hear, hear.) But it was well known to the lion.
Member that Lord Bute had taken no share in the transaction
to which the lion. Gentleman alluded.
Mr. C. BRUCE said he hoped the lion. Member did not
mean to attribute to him any intention to make statements
which he (Mr Bruce) knew were not true. He made the state-
ment that his Noble Friend had declined to sign a petition in
favour of a person of the name of Stewart. He did not think it
derogatory to the Earl of Bute so to act, but that. he hail signed
the petition after to favour the views of the party to whom
the Noble Lord was attached.—(Cries of " Divide, divide.")
Sir A. L. HAY would not detain the House. Hs only rose
for the purpose of explaining that, with regard to the statement
of the Hon. Member for Elgin, respecting the signing of the
petition, it was never signed till after the whole of the late
elections were over. After what had fallen from the Bight
Hoe. Baronet, he did not intend to divide the House.
The motion was then withdrawn.
BONDED FLOUR.

Mr. HUTT having moved for leave to bring in " A Bill to
permit flour, or flour and biscuit, to be substituted for foreign
wheat secured in warehouses."
Sir R. Pe:EL said that the Hon. Gentleman having asked
him a question whether he (Sir 11. Peel) would object to his
bringing in a Bill on the subject, he answered that he would
not, at the same time he said that he could not be understood to
express any opinion on the subject.
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
CHURCH OF SCOTLAND.
Mr. ALEXANDER CAMPBELL thea rose to move, ac-
cording to notice, for a Select Committee to consider the Con-
stitution and principles of the Church of Scotland, vino in-
quire into the causes Of the collision between the Supreme
Courts of that Church and the Supreme Civil Courts, and to
report their cbscrvations thereon to the House, with power to
send for persons, papers, and records. He begged to say, in
proposing this motion, that be might have expressed
himself in the previous debate s.mewhat too strongly,
but he assured the House that he was led into
those expressions only by his warm feeling on the subject, and
not by any intention to give offence to any one.--( Hear, hear.)
lie was induced to bring forward this motion in consequence of
a declaration on the part of the Government, that the law was
already sufficient to determine the disputes which had arisen ;
whereas it was his opinion, that when two Courts, which were
co-ordinate and independent, as were tha Ecclesiastical and
Civil Courts of Scotland, came into collision, it was necessary
that a higher power should interpose and decide between them.
Mr. COWPER said that he considered himself one of those
who were referred to by the Hon. Member who had just sat
down. -But he lo died for nothing else in the discussions
upon this question but its speedy settlement.—(Hear, bear.)
And he would do any thing in his power to wrest the Church
of Scotland from the danger with which she was threatened.
lie could not think that there was any ground for refusing to
sift thoroughly the question in dispute. The law which the
Church asserted was said by the Civil Courts to be
opposed to the statute law of the land. The General
Assembly on the other hand contended that the law
set up by the Civl Courts was opposed to the fundamental
laws of the Church, and to the -Act of Union.—' Hear, hear.)
Ihe question of non-intrusion was sufficiently narrow and
simple. It was allowed by the Civil Covets that the congrega-
tion had a right. to reject a minister. But these Courts asserted
that reasons must be assigned for the exercise of that right.
Bat, he would ask, was it reasonable that that House, which had
a right to refuse its confidence to a Minister of the Crown,
as he refused his to the Right Honourable Baronet opposite.
was bound to give the Crown such reasons as would satisfy
the Sovereign judicially, that the reasons were well founded?
It was not sought to take from the patron the power of nomi-
nating, but to apply to it such checks as would require them
to consult the wishes and the religious feelings of the congre-
gations; and what in fact had been the working of the veto?
Amidst all the exei'ement that had prevailed, out of two hun-
dred and thirty appointments t nly seventeen had been vetoed.
He thought that it the Government would concede the point
Of non-intrusion, which the Church had declared to be one of
InT fundamental points of doctrine, that the question might be
easily arranged. As to all claim of the Church to entire
freedom from all interference of the civil jurisdiction, he
thought4hat clai.n unmaintainable ; but he thought the Go •
vernment ought to concede the point of non-intrusion. Ile
should vote for the Commi tee.
Sir J. GRAHAM sad that the Hon. Gentleman who had
just sat down had said that lie had confidence in her Majesty's
Government. The Hon. Member, on this question at least.,
must have had as little confidence in the Government of Lord
Melbourne. Lord Melbourne said that he was satisfied
with the law regulating patronage in Scotland; and being so
satisfied, he must refuse anything like a Committee of Inquiry,
because the granting of such Committee would be equal to an
admission that the law required alteration. Now he (Sir J.
Graham) andlis col'eagues came to the same conclusion with
Lord Melbourne, that rt was right. to stand by the law of Scot-
laud, as declared by the Housof Lords Is wastrue that, in matters
ecclesiastical in Scotland, the General Assembly was supreme.
It was true that in matters civil the Court of Session was su-
promo, and a difference had arisen as to whether this question
was a question relating to matters ecclesiastical or matters
civil. A collision had been the consequence, and an appeal to
the House of Lords had resulted. Ihe House had given a
final judgment, deeiding that the Veto law was at variance
with the law of the lanf. Such being an exposition of the state
of the case, lie felt he should be acting inconsistently with his
duty, and that the Government would be betraying a weakness
of purpose, if he should consent to the appointment of a Com-
mittee of Itsquiry. He would draw the attention of the House
to the terms of this motion. The motion was for a Committee
to consider the situation and principles of the Church of Scot-
land. Were people to submit the whole que:tion of the con-
stitution of the Presbyterian Church of Scotland to a Commit-
tee of the House, would the Right lion. Gentleman opposite,
who was such a stickler for Presbyterian Church Government,
consent to submit to a Committe of the House of Commons ?
a question so extensive as the constitution of the Church of
Scotland—a matter not of fact, but of law and principles ?
Those who considered, with the Government, that the pre-
sent state of the law was fixed and settled would regard the
appointment of such a Committee with dismay, as calculated
to unsettle the law, whilst those who were of a contrary opi-
nion would consider.it a triumph. He thought it would be in-
judicious and dangerous to appoint a Committee, and there-
fore he must oppose the motion.
Mr. FOX MAULE was perfectly able to reconcile the vote
he was about to give in favour of the motion, with those Pres.
byterian feelings to which the Right Hon. Gentleman had ap-
pealed. • Ile had come down to the House rather inclined to
vote against the motion, but haviiig heard the instructions of
her Majesty's Government, and knowing the Committee could
only inquire into facts relating to the constitution cf the
Church of Scotland he should vote in favour of it. They could
not give power to any Committee to alter the eon,tituti,m of
the Church in any way. because that was a power which the
Legislature itself did not possess. The Hight floncurable
Gentleman had alluded to the dfflcrence between the power of
the Courts Ecclesiastical and Civil. Ile (Mr. F; Manic) thought
it right that the public in England should thoroughly understand
what was going on in the North, which they did not understand
at present, although the effects of it might soon reach their own
firesides. With regard to the Church of Scotland itself, lie
felt convinced that it was fixed upon such solid foundation that
it. would emerge from all its diflicultit s and be more triumphant
than it had ever been, even in its brightest days. The Right
Honourable Gentleman had said that in the Auchterarder
case the Church had agreed to refer the tfuestion
of jurisdiction to the House of Lords, and he said that if`the
decision had been the other way, they would not have heard
about. it. The Church had referred that question to the
House of Lords only for the purpose of determining how far
the Court of Law could go with regard to the temporalities of
the living, and the moment that was decided to be a matter
subject to the cognizance of the Civil Court, the
Church had succumbed and had directed the Pres-
bytery of Auchterarder, not to proceed with the
just decolutuin, not to take advantage of what had occurred.
So tar as this had gone they had bowed to the decision of the
law, and would do so in all others relating to their civil rights.
Then, again, a great deal hat been said of the rebellion of the
Church and of the persecutions of the s::ven minis-
ters. Now what had those seven ministers- done? Mr.
Edwards had beer, presented by the patron to the
living of Stratbogie ; personally, he was unexceptionable
but having acted es a political agent in the parish, he certainly.
ought not to lie appointed. '1 he appointment was vetoed, and
Mr. Edwards appealed to the Court of Session, to order the
Presbytery to admit him, which they had no power to do.
what did those seven gentlemen do? Did they appear in
Court? -Did they appear to bow t the authority of the superior
Church of Scotland? No such thing. They entered the Civil
-Courts, and by their own application obtained a decree against
them, in order to that which they held to be necessary to their
ordination. They could no more compel a Presby tcrian to ordain
any person, any more than a Churchman. These men were
ordained, and the Commission of General Assembly proceeded
to summon them to the Court ; eighteen months e!apsed ; every
opportunity was given them to make an apology, but they did
not adopt that course. The Church had been driven from
corner to corner by those who ought to protect her.
Sir ROBERT PEEL said the Right Hon. Gentleman who
had just sat down was not deeply impre-sed with the importance
of this motion, as the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman
had been directed to another subject. Ile had said nothing
whatever in favour of the present motion, and he (Sir R. Peel)
would have felt very much surprised if he had, because the long
period he had been connected with Scotland, and the long period
he had been in office, and that office connected. with Scotland, if
he had thought the appointment of a Committee would bring
about an advantageous settlement of the question, he (Sir
Robert Peel) thought he would have acquiesced in the
motion. The late Lord Chancellor, Lord' Cottenham, had
expressed an opinion in which he (Sir Robert Peel)
ect----he must say
felt strongly disi:osed to concur upon this subj

that on the question of whether it was desiralf.e to introduce a
nw-asure into Pal hament, fee the purpose of settling that ques-
tion, there must exist very strong grounds for believing that
the proposed measure would be adopted by Parliament, and, if
dadidopatge'arthtaotlL'ivothu-ahti.
e question.ilgschlat
course to the House. The 'pinion, therefore, of Lord Cot-
tenham was, that it mould be a fruitless proceeding with Par-
liament. Now, if the Hight Ifonowable Gentleman-bad-felt
the same, on this subject, as the Government with which he
was connec'eil in le4o, he could net acquiesce in the motion.
'I hey (the late Government) did not adopt any measure of
their own, because they thought that in t. c then existing tem-
per of the people of Scotland, they could nut brires it to a satis-
factory determination ; it was perfectly open to tam to appoint
a Select Committee if they pleased, but that being the way in
which a shibby Government would transfer its responsibility
to a Sete a Committee, they did not appoint suet,'
a Committee ; he (Sir Robert Peel) looked upon
this question as a most important one ; it was
poss.ble for any man to liment more deeply and more sincerely
than he did the present condition of the 'Church of Scot-
laud; he bad always felt deeply interested in the moral, the
spiritual, and the Secla • 1 interests of Scotlind ; with a view
to settle the unhappy occurrences which had taken place in
the Church of Scotland, be a:rove to conduct his relations in
such a way that these occurrences should he satisfacto-
rily determine''.
; the whole of hi • official relations with Scotland
were of uninterrupted harmony, and perhaps that was the very
reason he now more deeply • lamented the condition in which
the Church of that country was in, It was attempted to bring
matters to a satisfactory termination, but it was ascertained that •
there was not that disposition amongst the public in Scotland
which Wd3 likely to teeure a satisfactory adjus'ment, and it wat
his (Sir R. Peel's) firm belief, that to attempt to legislate, and
to fail, would • only have the affect of increasing Ilia
difficulties ; oue of the reasons assigned for appointing a Select
Cimmittee to inquire into this question was, that English gen-
' tlemen should thereby prime' information upon the subject ;
if that was the object, he should say that he would be able to
point out much more ample so tress of information than .a
lea Committee could affard ; jf there ever was a subject which
on each side was so thoroughly exhausted, he vcntvred to say
it was that of the Church of Scotland ; arid, therefore, if any
Hon. Gentleman wanted infotmation with respect to the diffe-
rent matters relating to that question, after having read, first,
the judgment of all the Judges of the Court of Sessions and
the judgment of the House of Lords, and then the pamphlets
which were written on the subject, it might be depended
upon that the most ample information would be ob..
tamed. When the late tiovernmeet was in office an ex-
press proposition was made to Lord Melbourne to
appoint a Committee to inquire into the question. Lord Mel-
bourne did not acquiesce in that proposition, stet, ng as his reason
for not doing so, that he thought the question was not then
fit. for legis'ation. Lord Melbourne then took the course
which he (Sir R. Peel) now proposed to take. He believed
the appointment of a Committee would only tend to postpone
the time when any good could be effected. He firmly believed
th it if an attempt was now made to legislate upon the subject
it would only inflame the feelings of the people, which are
already excited, and at the same time they world not ad-
vance the interes's of the Church of Scotland one step.
Under these circumstances, he thought the Hon. Member
acted perfectly right in not bringing forward a Bill ; but if a
Dill could be brought forward, founded on just principles, he
thought it ought to bebrought forward—he thought it would
be much bet or than appointing a Select Committee. His firm
belief was, that, instead of effecting any goad, a Select Com-
mittee would only tend to widen the diffstrenee at
present exist ing. [fear, hear.) If he had come
down to the Home, and said he had nothing to propose on
the measure, and that he sh add Move theiefore for a Select
Committee, he slionld have been told at once that such a step
would be wholly unworthy of the Minister of she Crown. Nor
coul he indeed have pursued such a course ; and now that
step had been adopted by another Hon. Member, he could not
give his support to it.
Mr. A. CAMPBELL eommeneed, in reply, by reading an
extract from a letter from Dr. Thomas Chalmers, which stated
that his motion was looked to with the greatest interest by.all
parties in the Church, and wishing him God speed with it. He
would beg to state that the Right Honourable Baronet
who answered him did not at all c ndeseend to answer
the argoments wh ch he had made use of. Ile (Mr.
Campbell) contended that the civil court ought not
to be allowed to decide the .imits of its own power, when it
had to adjudicate in the case of its own adversary. This the
Right Hon. Baronet did not reply to. The Right Hon.
Baronet then asked him why he did not bring in a Bill—so he
would bring in a Bill, and one that would answer every pur-
pose, but he knew that it would be immediately cashiered by a
party of men who b:indly followed their Conservative
leader.—(Opposition cheers.) Gentlemen opposite need not
cheer became he knew they would do exactly the same thing.
—(R newed cheering.) It was for that reason that he wished
to have a quiet d scriminating inquiry into the subject in a Coins
mitte-room ; he asked this in justice to the people of Scotland
and themselves. He was now quite ready to take the sense of
the (louse on the silt ject.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the House
divided. '1 he numbers were—
For the motion .
Against it

62
139

Majo; ity against the motion.
THE TRUCK SYSTEM.
Mr. FERRAND, on the gallery being cleared, was found
speaking in support of the motion, of which he had given
notice, for a copy of all the convictions in the counties of
York and Lancaster by Magistrates in Petty Sessions assem-
bled, of persons who have been guilty of illegally paying the
wages of their workpeople goods instead -of the current
coin of the realm, since the Ist day of January, .1837,
contrary to the provisions of the Act I and 2 Will. 4, e. 37.
He made this demand in justice to the working men of the
k'ngdom. At the time an Honourable Member opp,site
stated that seventy-two persons in Manchester hat de-
clared that they did not carry on the truck system. He
was most shamefully deceived by those persons,
Instead of being the principal manefastures of Lancashire,
many of them were not manufacturers at all. The
very first man on the list carried on the truck
system, by paying • his labourers in milk and evin
manfaeturers in that place he found were foreigners, and was
it right tha they sttould come here and subscribe their money
for the purpose ot setting class against clr si,and sul porting a boAy
of men who were attempting to overawe the Government.
Those men were depriving the British merchant at
a fair field of enterprise, and they hal a duty to peform, not
-only to the British Government, but to the country they came
from. Were British merchants to act in the same way in those
countries, they would be immediately made amenable to the law
He proteded against the oppression going on in the north of
England against the workmen,' in the name of justice ind
ermaion decency, and he proposed his motfon from a wi h that
the people of this country should be made aware that
if the master did attempt. to frighten and intimidate the work-
trier. from giving evidence before the House it was in
the power of the House to inflict condign punishmen',
and while he lived, as fir as his position in the House
enabled him, he would take cars that the punishment was in-
flicted. The Hr n. Mt tuber then read a circular, dated Man-
chester, the feh of March, and signed J. flickens, secretary to
an Anti Corn •law Society', requesting the foremen If ova.
blishments to obtain the signatures of workmen to a contradic-
tion of Mr. Lennard's charge. Lie tuked, where that
declaration was ? It had not appeared in that House,
because the working reaple had at last shown that they
were not to be intimii'ated. He also read the letter which
inAosed the circular to him, signed by a poor working man,
pra'sing Mr. Ferrand for his emeduct in cap %sing the conduct
of the masters, and wondering that any men could be found
who would n t credit it. Ile was deternined to ferret out the
whole of such mons rout tyranny, by whomever practised,
and whatever part) ; and he should be prepared after Easter,
when he should mire for a Committee, with such evidence
as would astonish the House, and make some Hon. Members
in the House tremble. The Govermm nt would find, from the
evidence, that the country was in an alarming state from the
fraudulent practices of the manufacturers, who were plundering
and oppressing their workmen to a worse extent than Egyptian
bondage. He read two letters from Magistrates in the neigh-
bourhood of the Hon. Member for Stockport, sta'ing that they
had convicted manufacturers for illegally paying their workmen
in goads, in penalties to the amount of 214. And he concladed by
r accusin,„%the Hon. Member for Stockport himself, notwithstane.
ing his -declaration, that he had aopted the truck system, by
keeping a number of cows, and paying part of his men's wages
in milk
Col. SIIITIIORPE vconded tha motion.
Mr. SCUOLEFIELD said that he had received a letter
denying that any such meeting had taken place in Birming-
ham as the lion, Member (Mr. Ferrand) had alleged.
The motion wa, then agreed to.
On the motion of Lord ELIOT, leave was given to bring in
a dill to amend the Dublin Police Acts.

Dr. BOWRING postponed to Thursday next the motion of
which be had gii-en notice for a Report made to the Home
Office by a Committee appointed by the Conference, lately
held at the Crown and Anchor, on the subject of manufac-
turing distress.

On the motion of the Earl of LINCOLN, leave vls given
to bring in a Bill to extend and enlarge the provisions of the
Act 4 and 5 Vie. c. 27, intituled " an Act to enable her Ma-
jesty's Commissioners of Woods to complete the contract for
the sale of York House, and to purchase certain lands."
The othe Orders of the Day were disposed of, end the House
adjourned at a Quarter-past One.

C.lsn or MRs. Luc.ts, WIIOSE HUSBAND
KILLED Ms CHILDREN AND lIINISELF.—The Lord Mayor
and the Lady Mayoress have determined to exert themselves to
pr 'cure from the eompa,sionate public tl:e means of making
some pi orlion for the unfortunate creature who has been left
alone and destitute in the word, by the frightful catastrophe
which took place o.t Sunday morning in Aldermanburv. Ills
Lordship stated yesterday in the parlour of the Mansion-
house, that lie was convinced the feeling caused by the event
was of such a nature, that it was only necessary for him to al-
lude to the access Ales of the afflicted widow, to induce the bene-
volent to come forward to her assistance. He and the Lady
Mayoress had made the most searching inquiries into the cha-
racters of the widow and her la e husband, and they learned
fro la every source to which they had applied, that the conduct
of both had always been unexceptionable, and that the
brain of the poor wretched man must have been affected
by the horror he felt at the approach of want and its con-
comitant miseries and degradation, as regarded his family.
The almost distracted widow presented, at the moment his
Lordship was speaking. according to the statement of his Lord-
ship's own medical man, who had been directed to at'end her,
one of the most deplorable objects in the world. The Lady
Mayoress had been with her to administer whatever the poor
Lereature was capable of I eceiving as corsolation in her pitiable
condition, and some benevolent iursons had j,.ined in the inte-
rest felt for her, tnd bad expressed themselves warmly in fa-
vour of a subscription for her relief. It was, his Lordship re-
marked, evidrnt, from the hardness of the hands of the un-
happy sufferer, who was a person of very delicate frame and
health, that she had never been idle while her husband was em-
ployed or seeking for employment ; and it was well known is
the neighbourhood in which they resided, that the father and
mother went, alternate Sunday*, to church with the three
children, who were always remarkable for the neatness of their
appearance. Taking the case in all its circumstances, his
Lordship considered it to be one which hail pecunar claims upon
those who had a " a tear for pity," and he should, therefore,
ft el the highest i,ratifica, ion in receiving contributions for the
benefit of the helpless survivor.

MAt nsn NL A ssizEs.--Edward Smith, a kbottrer,
was indicted yesterday for cutting and maiming Lewis Tomp-
sett. It appeared that the parties had quarrelled in a public
house at Ashford, and a fight took place, when the prisoner,
who came off second be,t, drew a knife from his pocket, and
stabbed the iiroeentor in three different. places. Ihe jury re-
turned a verdict of guilty, and Baron Gurney said the offence.
was becoming so common, that strong measures must beadopted
to put it down; he would therefore take time to_consider what
sentence should be passed on the convict.
Two or three days ago a hair-dresser at.Neubiltljro;
ha ing discovered his wife in a situation which left no 4
from the
his dishonour, a violent scene took place, at the e.ndofowuhich
she left the house, and threw herself into the Seine from
and a
bridge of Neuilly. She was kept afleat by
boat. put off to her rescue. After Ileatin
rhushand, thinking
r
mile she was taken out uninjured; and
co..
bath,
censented
hmererce than half a
she had bean sufficiently punished by her Id
to a reconciliation.
On account of the death
ASIIII ITRNIIAM HOU.
sr.
erand Duke of Mecklenburg—G
of his Royal Highness th
Imperial Majesty the
Emperor
unw's intended party for this day
of Russia, Baroness Br. ,o
,dnestlay) is unavoidably Postponed.
Schwerin, brother-
( in-law of his