The Sun.
London, England, 1842-07-28 00:00:00

EXCHEQUER BILLS' BILL.

The Duke of WELLINGTON moved the third
reading of the Exchequer Bills Preparation Bill.
Lord BROUGHAM saw nothing objectionable
in the Bill except the first clause, which made the
Assistant-Comptroller of the Exchequer responsible
to the Treasury, which he had not hitherto been.
• The LORD CHANCELLOR at this time took his seat
on the Woolsack, and was congratulated by several
Noble Peers on the restoration of his health.
After a few observations from the Duke of
WELLINGTON, the Bill was read a third time.
The Noble Duke then moved certain amendments,
which were agreed to, and the Bill passed.
CUSTOMS ACT AMENDMENT BILL.

The Earl of RIPON having moved the third read-
ing of this Bill,
Lord MONTEAGLE said that he wished to take
that opportunity of alluding to some points connected
with our commercial policy. He perceived that it
was proposed in the Bill then before the House, to re-
move the duty which had been imposed on the exporta-
tion of cement-stone in the original Tariff. He wished
to ask what were the motives which had induced the
Government to alter their intention upon that sub-
ject. He had a few words to say relative to the
position in which the Corn question was
left by the Government. It was known that there
was now a considerable portion of foreign
corn in bond ; and he was happy to think that
a considerable portion of that corn was at
present likely to be released. He should rather
find that our markets would be relieved in
that way than by any special interposition of the
Government, which would free corn from the duty
to which it was by law subject. The effect to
the consumer of the admission of 1,200,000 quarters
of corn on the payment of a duty or without any
duty at all would be precisely the same in the one
case as in the other ' - because the price would
be regulated not by the amount of duty
paid, or by the absence of all duty ; but by the
amount of corn in the market as compared with
the means of the people to consume that corn
The only effect, therefore, of admitting the corn
duty free would be to put so much money in the
pockets of the holders of corn. There was another part
of the question to which he wished to direct their at-
tention. If the price were low in this country
the admission of 1,200,000 quarters of foreign corn
would be considered as an evil, because it would glut
our rz,arkets ; but, on the other hand, if the price were
high, the admission of foreign corn would be consi-
dered as a benefit, inasmuch as it would afford a relief
to the consumer.

(LEFT SPEAKING.)

HOUSE OF COMMONS,
The SPEAKER took the Chair at the usual hour.
SOUTHWARK IMPROVEMENT BILL.

The Lords' amendments to this Bill were agreed to.

ATHLONE ELECTION.

Lord G. SOMERSET brought up the Report of
the General Elections Committee, fixins Monday, the
22d of August, for the appointment of a Committee
to try the merits of a petition against the return for
the borough of Athlone.
COURT OF EXCHEQUER (ENGLAND) BILL.
On the motion of Sir G. CLERK this Bill was
read a third time and passed.
WESTERN AUSTRALIA BILL.
The Report of the Committee on this Bill was re-
ceived, and to-morrow was appointed for the thir,l
reading.
DONCASTER.

_
Mr. S. WORTLEY present,d a petition from
!...
Doncaster, stating that tha town contained 11,000
inhabitants, who were :nstinguished for their good
sense, honour, and, loyalty ; and the petitioners
prayed that if it was contemplated to transfer the
elective prlvilegs from any borough, the claims of
Doncas,ier might be considered.

CLASS LEGISLATION.
Mr. HUME presented a petition against 'class
legislation, and all restrictions upon food.
The Stamp Duties Assimilation Bill was read a
third time and passed.
Slr. MACKINNON gave notice that in Committee
' the Bankruptcy Law Amendment Bill, he shol,id
move a clause to the effect that no party afte; .1)e had
completed his 70th year should be bnlntsoned under
any Bankruptcy Law.
Mr. HUME gave notice ttott he should to-mor-
row present a petition tan the dethroned Raja of
Sattara.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHtQUER
moved that the Order of the fbr the Committee
on the Common Law Courts (Ire and) Bill should be
, read, for the purpose of bent,- postponed.
BENCH LAIMS.
Mr. DIVETT rose to put a question to the Right
Hon. Baronet as to the present state of the proceed-
ings of the joint French and English Commission, on
the claims of certain English merchants for serious
injuries to their ships and property by the French au-
thorities in the Bay of Portendic. So far back as 1832
very serious outrages were committed upon British
merchants, and in the course of time a Commission
was appointed by the French Government, but he was
sorry to say that it only led to protracted

discussion on the part of the French Government ;
and questions of that sort actually involved the neces-
sity of reprisal on our part ; therefore it behoved them
to approach the subject with great delicacy, and not
to produce irritation. This was a subject which in-
volved the peace of France and this country, and the
peace of the World. He.. had brought the subject
under the consideration of the House in order to ob •
thin from the Right Hon. Baronet an expression of hiS
opinion. with respect to • these proceedings. He had
little doubt what the nature of that expression would
be, because on several occasions the Right Honour
able Baronet had spoken in a manner which
showed that his opinion was in favour of those
persons who were suffering under those proceed-
ings. In a speech delivered by the Right Honourable
Baronet on the Navy Estimates in February, 1842,
he spoke in strong terms of the conduct of the
French Government, and he said he did not think that
they could be vindicated in the course they had taken.
He (Mr. Divett) thought it right to state to the
House the means which the French Government
adopted to appropriate to itself the trade with the For-
tendick. The Hon. Gentleman was proceeding with
the detail of the unjustifiable manner in which the
French Government proceeded to interrupt their trade
with Ihe Portendiek, for which purpose they carried
on a war with the people north of the Senegal creating
a loss to the claimants of not less than 100,0001., when
Mr. ROEBUCK. rose to order—lle did not think
that the Hon. Gentleman .was justified in discussing
at such length a subject respecting which he had
given notice of merely putting a question.—(Year,
hear.) He therefore wished. to know whether the
Ilon. Gentleman was in order.
The SPEAKER said that the Hon. Gentleman
having risen to put his question on the 'Order.bf the
Day for going into Cominittee'npon the Common Law
Courts (Ireland) Bill, it was impossible for him to
interfere.. , •

Mr. ROEBUCK said he understood that all mat-
ters arising upon moving the Orders of the Day,
should be merely relevant to those Orders, otherwise
he should have risen. If it were otherwise, it would
raise the question upon the resolutions he. was about
to move.

Mr. DIVETT said that he did not wish to do any
thing which would be contrary to the sense of the
House. The Hon. Gentleman was, however, enter-
ing at length upon the subject, when
Sir ROBERT INGLIS rose to order. He begged
to repeat the call made upon the Hon. Member by
the Hon. and Learned Member for Bath, to confine
himself to the question of which he had given notice.

MI% DIVETT said it was necessaryfor him to
make a. statement relative to the question, but as it
appeared to be against the feeling of the House
he would sit down by merely putting the question of
which he had given 44otice.
Sir R. PEEL said, that as the Hon. Gentleman
had determined to bring the subject under the consi-
deration of the House in the form of a question rather
than of a motion, he thought it incumbent on him, in
answering that question, to adhere to the ordinary
rules by which the conduct of Ministers in answer-
ing questions was regulated. He was not at li-
berty to enter into the discussion, but he was
justified in answering the question put to him. What-
ever feelings he may entertain as the subject of these
claims—and they were strong—he thought the wiser
and more dignified course to pursue was to abstain
from all harsh and contumelious terms.—(Cheers.)
And if he used forbearing and temperate language,
it should not be thought inconsistent with the
strong feelings . which he entertained as to
thejustice of the claims of those persons
whose interests were involved into the subject. At
an early period of the session he held out strong ex-
pectations that these claims would not be satisfactorily
arranged, and his Noble Friend, the Secretary
,of
State for Foreign Affairs, held out similar expecta-
tions. He was not, however, enabled to confirm
these expectations;but he could assure the lion. Gen-
tleman that he gave no ezipeetations which he was not
justified in giving, in consequence of the assurances
which the Government had received. The Hon. Gen-
tleman who was interested in these claims, more from
a sense e 2 their justice, he was sure than from any
persoitta interest he had in the matter, was, he sup-
posed, aware of what had taken place on subject
between the British Government and the French
Government, and he thought it was better the
matter should remain in its present state, than raise
any discussion which might throw impediments in the
way of the settlement Of the question ; and
when he looked to the origin of those claims,
the delay and interruption thrown in the
way of their adjustment, he could not but feel confidence
that, in a great country like France, animated by a
strong sense of justice and keen feelings of honour, would
compel a just settlement of these claims to be made.
As he had before stated, he would not say more on
this subject ; he thought the Hon. Member had ex-
ercised a sound discretion in putting a question only,
and not making a distinct motion. He trusted, how-
ever, that the Hon. Gentleman would not construe;construe;the forbearance and moderation with which he had
spoken on this question into any indifference as to the
limportance of the suh;ect.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. DIVETT said he should be quite content with
the statement of the Right Hon. Baronet on the assur-
ance that the subject should not-be allowed to stop,
but would be followed up by the Government.
Sir R. PEEL said within the last few days a com-
munication had been made to the French Govern-
ment, the delivery of which had only been postponed
in consequence of that lamentable event, which, what-
ever might be their political feelings, he was sure hid
excited the deepest 'sympathy with the sufferings of
the Royal Family of France.—(Hear, hear.) What-
ever de'.ay might occur, he was quite sure that
the British House of Commons would reszind to the
feeling he had expressed, both towards I ranee and
the Royal Family, on the subject.--(Hear.)
LAW COURTS (IRELAND) BILL.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, on
the motion for reading the Order of the Day
for going into Committee on this Bill, said that
it was one of great importance, involving the
interests of a great number of persons, a proper
inquiry into whose cases would require comMunication
with the authorities in Ireland. lii the preSent state
of the business of the House, and the importance of
giving a full consideration to the subject, he found it
impossible that this inquiry could 'be gone into this
session' or the Bill proceeded with. But he also
wished to give notice that at the commencement of
the next session, he should certainly renew a Bill that
would give effect to the provisions of the present one,
in order to ensure that saving of expense which he
was sure would be the ultimate result.

Mr. O'CONNELL concurred in the propriety of
postponing the Bill. The Bill we then postponed.
CONFERENCE DEPUTATIONS TO THE

MINISTRY.

Mr. FIELDEN seeing the Secretary of State I\t,r
the Home Department iu his place, Wished td iiiil
a question to him on a matter votgaiihl to himself.
In the report of the interview Of the delegates from
the manufacturers in London-with the Right Hon.
Baronet, on the "2tith inst., as given in the Morning
Chronic* and other papers of yesterday, there ap-
peared this statement : " Sir J. Graham said that it
appeared from a statement made by Mt. l'ielden, the
Member for Oldham, that the iinproved machinery had
thrown out of employment 85 per cent. of the hands en-
gaged in the mills where it had been adopted." The
question he (Mr. Fielden) wished to ask the Might nut
Baronet was, first,- whether he had said what he lead
been reported to have said ; and secondly, if he did,
to what statement of his (Mt. Fielden's) he referred ?
Sir J. GRAIIA.M, before replying to the question
Of the Hon. Member, would just observe .that he
could not hold himself responsible for the reports of
what had taken place on the oeeasion I-dem-4 TM.
Ile would make one observation in Ott*Aiti-. If. these
Reports were published; WA nn 4qy authority, but
froth ex parte statentenh drawn up from the
mere recollection ill' the parties themselvtt., k!ri;..
fidential, he night almost say faiiiiliat., ihterteiirse
twhheicchouanttprz7sent took place between aqiiittitiblik 11-lith
c‘essa.:4 and the Ministers Of the tiftiwn must ne-
be destroyed) and it would be the duty of
...canisters in their interviews with such bodied tO prat
serve a rigid, he might almost sa,y a Mille% silence:
(Loud cheers.) The Honourable Gentleinhq WEI.'
that he (Sir J. Graham)
hind
tlile
(Mr. Fielden). Ile (Sir
70.4.? an) 461;aseV certainly
1 0 y
asked a question of thsi .V.lz;imtation relative to the in=
troduction of Machinery into the cotton iliWiillilie-
tories of lath years, and as to the rlt'ts piroduted.by
that Introduction. He hati certainly asked such a
question, and if he retolleetectrightly h, hart wilt'
:Lie lion, Aktnber fotoOlilhOlii .4tee, in his place in
'Parliament that Within the last live years new ma-
ohinety had been introduced into the cotton.mamithat
to ra) tha effect of which had been to ilitirlhish . tho
N)loyment ;-,1-' manual labour thirty V.* bent., and that
I consequently niatittal hilastlii had been displaced
•co that extent, lb had asked the gentlemen bt the
Deputation if titres- eii-rekl with tilt statement of the
Hon. Member for')hlhtun, that manual ldlx'tir ihtti
been disphroil by machinery AI the VcifWii hAttlitirie".-
tare during.the lust .fiV,e,Yeai* Atril oto 35 per cent.
The DepittatiOYL sit That they differed from the
Hon. Gtent,Mien in opinion. He (Sir J. Grulititli)
. beta Ittated to the ' best of his nit ullittion what had
passed. If the Honourable Gentleman asked him
Graham)
(Sir James to what pattitatlat ae-
bate he referred as the one hi which the lion.
Member had made that statement, he would admit
that he would not refer to the particular debate, but
he had a strong impression on his mind that the
Hon. Member had made some such statement in his
place in Parliament. If the Hon. Member con-
tradicted him he was bound to bow to the lion.
Member's more perfect recollection, but' he certainly
had asked the question-bona fide, under the impression
that the Hon. Gentleman had made such a statement.
Mr. FIELD N: had no recollection of everlaYing
made any such statement, either in the House . or out
of the &use. It was iillpOSßible he could have d 44310

THE SUN, LONDON, THURSDAY EVENING, JULY 28, 1842.

so, because such a statement would be at variance
with the fact, and With every thing he had either
spoken or written on the subject. In proof of this he
would refer the Right lion. Secretary to the form of
a petition he (Mr. Fielden) had drawn up in 1841,
when it was expected there would be further legisla-
tion on the factory question, and a copy of which,
with other papers, he placed in the hands of Ahe
Right Honourable Baronet the First Lord of the
Treasury, *hen he honoured him with an interview
on the 4th of October last, and in that document he
had stated that in 1840, as compared with 1835, in
the county of Lancaster the increase of turning ma-
chinery was 53:-, per cent., the increase of the con-
sumption of cotton 44 per cent., and the increase of
the number of hands employed in the factories only
21 per cent. He would take an opportunity of giv-
ing to the Right Hon. Secretary a copy of this draft
petition, and humbly recommend. the facts contained
in it to his serious attention.
Sir J. GRAHAM said he thanked the Hon.. Ge-
ntleman for the explanation which he had given, as it
exculpated him for the charge of inaccurac.
Sir R. PEEL said he could confirm what the Hon.
Gentleman (Mr. Fielden) had stated, as it was con-
sistent with what he had said in October last. He
protested against the course pursued, in reporting
those interviews ; it was rather hard that, after giving
two hours of most patient attention to the Deputa-
tion, he should be made responsible for a report,
which was totally inaccurate in the general impres-
sion it' conveyed.
Mr. AGLIONBYcIIIed the attention of the House
to a misrepresentation in the Times newspaper of
what he had stated last night with regard to the
borough of Carlisle. He was there reported to have
! said that before the period of the Reform Bill there
was hardly an election which was less expensive than
the election for the borough of Carlisle, and that since
that. period it had been one of the most expensive in
the country. What he eid state was, that till the
period of the Reform Bill, there was no constituency
more expensive ; that since _the Reform Bill, the ex-
pense had been extremely small, and that the practice
of head-money had never existed since that period
until the last election.

IPSWICH.

The St. Asaph and Bangor PrefertneAt BM en t
through Committee.
Mr. O'CONNELL postponed the motion of which
he had given notice -with respect to the case of the
Queen against Duffy,. in consequence (as we under-
stood) of the absence of the Solicitor,General- for
Ireland.

ELECTION COMMITTEE.

•
The Committee met again yesterday morning at the
usual hour, P. M. STEWART, Esq., ill the Chair.
Mr. KENGLAKE resumed his address. The first ease
he would call the attention of the Committee to was that
of William Blythe, who was brought from Harwich to
vote, and received 30s. for his expenses. He thou&
that no ingenuity of his Learned Friend would satisfy
the Committee that payments of this kind did not vacate
the seats of the sitting Members. With regard to War-
ren, who came from-Woodbridge to vote, and knowing
the consequences, had adroitly availed himself of the
hackneyed terms,." travelling expenses and loss of time,"
to justify the payment of money to him—if this trans-
action were au honest one, why did he use the term
travelling expenses, • when he had not paid one shilling
towards such expenses ? If Blythe and Warren were
entitled to 30s. each, so was every other voter in the bo-
rough ; and there being a constituency of 1.700, an elec-
tion would cost 1,1001. or 1,200/. Then Emanuel Bax-
ter had been promised his " legal expenses" by Mr.
Bond, and Robert Jobson Taylor had received 65., while
his daily wages were only 2S. Bd. Upon what plea, did
this man receive 6s.'? His wages had not been stopped
by the directors of the Orion, and on the day or election
he had his usual work. Where then was the slightest
pretekt for paying this man ? -• Did not these facts show
the systeM adopted by the agents of the sitting Mem-
bers ? There was in addition, a systematic course of
treating carried on amongst the voters. This was proved
by what took plaCe at the Salutatien and the icing's
Arms. On this - point tl e evidence of Bowman wa-s
most important, for he was not content with what he had
received at the King's Arms, but he went to the Smack,
where he found, in addition to beer, there was something .
more substantial, in the shape of beef steaks. Bowman.
there . found the place crowded with voters, and with
their wives and children, all of whom were drinking.
There could not be more important evidence. That the
agents of the sitting Members were cognisant of these
transactions, was proved by the fact of Bristee's being
present at the King's Arms, when the breakfast was given
there on the morning.ef the election ; and Mr. Arthur
Bott Cooke being also present at the Waggon and Horses,
with a number of voters. It was shown by the declara-
tion. of Mr. Frewin, that his wife had agreed with Mr.
Arthur Butt Cooke fur the breakfasts at the Waggon
and Horses, fur 20/. ; and that Mr. A. B. Cooke paid the
money, after the election. If this could be disproved,
why did not Mr. Cooke come forward and deny the fact?
Under all these circumstances, he (Mr. Kinglake) would
ask whether the bulk of the evidence was not fully sof
ficient to show that treating had gone on, at this elec-
tion, at the Solution, the Kiag's Arms, the Waggon and
Horses, and at the Smack, and incidentally at the Globe,
the Cock and Pie, and the White Lion ? Refreshment
tickets were illegal, as the Judges, and every emiaent
writer on election law, had laid it down that under no
coneition, with no, object, pure or unpure, just or unjust,
should any expense be incurred, after the taste of the
writ. The Learned Gentlethan thou quoted a number of
cases,. in support of his argument. It might.be contended
on behalf of the sitting Member, that if any expense had
been incurred, such expense had been incurred without
their knowled,ge. But Mr. -Josselyn, in his evidence,
deposed that Mr. Gladstone said to Mr. George- Ridley,
that he and his Noble Colleague had come clown with
" the express understanding that they Were not in any
way to sanction the illegal expenditure of money." Now
he (Mr. .Kinglake) would like to have heard a deciara-'
tiun from Mr. Gladstone, that " he did not come down
to expend any money at all." How could Mr.
Gladstone expect that things would be conducted pro-
perly when he entrusted the management of a part of his
election to Mr. Arthur Butt Cooke, who had before besn
convicted of bribery ? At any rate this was an- act of in-
discretion, and showed that he was not very well ac-
quainted with the manlier in which electione were con-
ducted in Ipswich. Ile would then turn to the question
-of agency. The Learned Counsel then read at great
length quotations from Rogers and other writers on elm-
tion law. He would therefore :submit, on this authority,
that the authority to pay non-resident voters
was proof of general agency, This the other party
would have to answer. They found, from the evidence,
that Bristoe, Cooke, and Steward, had met together, day
by clay, to- sum up the canvass ; that they took voters to
the poll, and gave them refreshment at the different inns ;
and that, after the election, they assembled together at a
Committee-room, timed at previous elections, they being
the only persons known lit` acting together, with the au-
thority and on behalf of the' sitting Members, and the
latter, having taken advantage of acts done, must aiitwer
for the consequence. If it had not been for Arthur
Butt Cooke, Bristue, and Steward, would Mr. Gladstone
and Lord Desert have been the sitting Members ? The
election had not beep fair and honourable, but had been
brought about by improper pi,actiecs, With regard to
the smallness of the bribes, he thought that made the
-case worse, as there was not half the demoralising effect
in a large bribe as a small one, for the small bribe was
generally given to the poor indigent voter. He had con-
cluded his address, -and he should sit down in perfect
confidence of his hating fully made out his ease on the
-part of the petitioners. ' The onus of disproving the
case would be upon his Learned Friend, but he thought
the facts adduced would sit heavy upon him. He
might, he thought, use the old and well-known quotation,
Pest evident mkt Ora wire. He apologised for having
so long detained the Cominittge, but the evidence being
so voluminCus he had felt it his duty to go its fully into
it as he had done, and he would again express his con-
fidence in having made out the case for the petitioners.
• Mr, AVSTIN then rase to address the Committee on
1 behalf' of the sitting Methbere, He said that his Learned
Friend had spoken for six or seen hours, and had left
, him to follow before a jaded audience, upon points dull,
or chillness itself. If he (Mr. Austin) occupied their
attention a day, so much the more would be. the merit
of the Committee,- but he trusted they would not listen
in train. ne it first of all ask upon what ground of
law did his Learned Friend support the petition? He did
not for a moment quarrel with the course taken by his
Learned Friend ; what he. complained of was that his
Learned Friend had not given the Committee a principle
on which to ticijiidiCatt% They would find it to be im-
portant to the sitting Members. It Would also be found
important to the constituency. of Ipswich with reference
to the charge preferred by the petitioners as well tia with
reference to the fact that the vacancy occuring at the
last Wend election in that town had been filled up.
It was important also, particularly to the Chairman,
with. reference to the circenistance of his having presided
in 1835 upon a former Ipswich Election Committee, us
well as to his not - having sat as Chairman on the
last Ipswich Election Committee. The former fact
rendered him of course unavoidably acquainted with
the names introdlictd Mimi this occasion, and which
would render him liable to have his mind
biassed by the mere repetition of those names, What
the Committee had to do—and every member would act
accordingly—was this, not to consider the fact that the
election of' Mr, Weson and Mr.. Bennie was the other
day set aside on :he ground of' bribery and corruption,
nor would they have .- to consider the fact that Mr.
Arthur B. Cooke had, according to the memory of
the Hon. Chairman, been formerly sent to Newgate for
disobedience of the Speaker's warrant, but they would
alotie cohaidet the terms of the petition lying on the
table—the charges • it contained—the evidence ad-
duced—and confine themseltes altogether to the
leeris of the case. The only question wits as to the va-
lidity of the election in June last. He (Mr. Austin)
believed that there never was an election in the town of
Ipswich which was less subject to the imputation of cor-
ruptitiii: He believed that their opponents knew this
perfectly well. he sidd the election was not obtained.
by bribery and treating. Whether they were to look at
the conduct of Mr. Bristoe with reference to two or
three votes,. or whether they were to go into the Count-
ing-house where the directors of the Orion at once car-
ried eti the business of plying by steam between London
and Ipswith and solleiting the votes of their dependents,
failing as they did, and as they deserved to do, inasmuch
as the offence of intimidation was a ten thousand times
worse offence than that of bribery and treating, he
said the election was not obtained either by bribery,
or by treating, .or by intimidation, and there-
fore could not be set aside upon those grounds.
Bribery was of two kinds, Authorities on the subject
said that an election might be made void by a general
system. of corruption, though the parties returned were
not cognizant of the system that was going on; and if no
general bribery was committed, yet • if particular acts of
bribery were committed the sitting Members might lose
their seats. The Learned Counsel then went at consi-
derable length into the law on the subject of bribery,
and cited several cases to show that travelling expenses
were legal at elections. and had been allowed by former
Comfiaitteem. Why, he would venture to say that if the
payment of travelling expenses were considered as bri-
bery There would not be found in the House of Commons
seven Members to try petitions against the other Mem-
bers. Why, on their own Committees on election peti-
tions had not the Members to pay the expenses of a
witness il Suppose he were a physician, who came to
give evidence respecting a man who had hung himself,
I and thus rid the world of a nuisauce.—(Laughter)—
they would have to pay that physician a guinea a day
for his services,- even though that man might never have
earned a guinea in it day in his life.—(Laughter.) How
then could they say that the travelling expenses at this
election were given as bribery. He said that to consti-
tute bribery there must have been a contract either
direct or implied. There had been no such thing
proved, because no such thing ever existed.
It being now four o'clock the Committee adjourned till
eleven o'clock to-day,