The Sun.
London, England, 1845-06-02 00:00:00

TI:TE S U►N, LONDON, MONDAY EVENING, JUNE 2, 1845.

wanted a competing line with the London and Birmingham

. _
to secure a low rate of charges. They at present can get their
goods at Wolverhampton at a cheaper rate, by a circuitous route
of conveyance by canal or by the Great Western Railway than
they can by the direct route •f the London and Birmingham line.

righted elsewhere, and that they must abide by the consequences.
I certainly have stated my doubts as to the propriety of working
the broad gauge and narrow gauge together. If a narrow gauge
line Is to be carried from Standish to Bristol it will greatly incon.
venience our South Wales traffic. If they were subject to the
revision clause the Great Western Company would extend their
works so as to keep down their dividend at 10 per cent. The revision
clause would be imperative. The increased expenditure would
benefit the public, but not in the mode contemplated by the Act, be.
cause the public would not get the forced revision of the tolls.
(Questions were then put relative to the accommodation afforded
by the respective lines. To these questions, however, lie was not
prepared to return accurate answers, and:the further cross.examin-
ation on the subject was deferred until Monday.)
Re examined by Mr. COCKBURN—From the commencement of
the scheme in 1836, the extension of the line through North
Wales always formed part of the plan. I am not aware of any
cases in which the Board of Trade has:sought to impose conditions ;
they have been invariably offered by the companies.

I think it would to most desirable that we should have a commu-

nication opened with Oxford and Southampton.
Mr. C. A. Saunders, examined by Mr. CocxeunN-1 am the
Secretary to the Great Western Company, and have been so since
its establishment In 1533. 1 recollect in 1836 the Great Western

Company assisting in promoting the Worcester and Oxford line.
It did not succeed, partly in consequence of embarrass-

ment in the money market, and partly in consequence of
the Oxford and Lincoln line being thrown out. We got
the Bill for the Oxford and Sheffield line in 1843,

and it was opened in 1644. He always considered that the Oxford
line would certainly be carried out to Worcester.
..It was taken

up again this year on the application of the Staffordshire people. On
that application being made the Great Western Company stated there
should be an indication of the feelings of the Staffordshire people
and of the landowners on the line. The parties were told there
would be no disinclination to take up the subject, if we could be
assured of the feelings of the people, and the traffic would
be remunerative. We have always considered the Worces-
ter line would lead to a line to the Welsh coast.
I have no doubt but that If the Worcester line were completed,

Mr. Coctowax—That is my case, Sir.
The Cisetamax—You have examined 99 witnesses, it is a pity
you have not called another to make it 100,

Mr. COCKBURN—We can indulge you, Sir.
The CLIAIRNIAN—Oh, by no means! I have no desire for It.
The Committee then adjourned at six o'clock to twelve on
Monday.

a line to North Wales would follow as a matter of course. A
North Wales line of Itself would not be remunerative as an inde-

GROUP L.

GUILDFORD, CHICHESTER, AND PORTS-

pendent line, but in connexion with another it would. It is
worth the while of the Company to carry its line through a less
remunerative district to secure the traffic through the whole line.
That is the result of all railway experience. The Oxford and
Rugby line was not taken up seriously by the Great Western
Company until last year. It then became evident that it would
be important to secure communication between Rugby and Oxford.
It would be the interest of the Great Western to bring down the
traffic to us more freely. It would be our interest to work that
line most efficiently, because any passenger brought down by it
must be ours. We should have an undivided interest
in promoting that traffic, and the London and
Birmingham would not have an undivided interest, because
they would lose the passenger when he came on to the Great
Western line. It would be our interest to bring traffic to the
line, It would be theirs to divert It, It would be our interest to
work the line to Southampton. It would be our interest to in-
duce a passenger to travel from Rugby to Basingstoke by working
the line efficiently. The present course of passengers would be
to go from Rugby to London, and then to Southampton.
by the South-Western. By the proposed line passengers would
quit the train at Rugby, and go to Southampton direct by our line.
The object of the Tring line would be for their purposes what the
object of our lino is for our purposes. It would sweep traffic back
in an easterly direction, instead of bringing it down to the south.
The best line to promote the interests of the public is ours, because we
have distinct pecuniary interest in working it as efficiently as possible,
which the others have not, as it would open the traffic to the south.
It appears to me more important that the broad guage should go
up than that the narrow gauge should come down. It appears to
me that it would be for the public advantage that this ground should
be conaidered neutral ground, and should be laid down both with the
broad and narrow gauge. It formed part of the original scheme
that there should be a narrow gauge over that district as well
as a bread. It was a portion of the original agreement,
and is not a scheme recently adopted to obviate difficulties.
It does not follow, as a matter of course, that the coal-traders
would be obliged to have a double stock of waggons in consequence
of the change of gauge. Their narrow gauge waggons could be
placed upon one of our trucks. If a new line were opened at
every gauge, the coal waggons would, in many places,
have to be be altered, for the waggon used for the
pit is different from that used for a locomotive line.
They would not take an expensive locomotive waggon into the pit,
it would not be economical. I have had frequent communications
with the Board of Trade. I made the offers with respect to the
Oxford and Rugby. We offered to provide whatever might be
necessary for shifting loads at Rugby without expense to the public;
I communicated to them the proposal for the broad and narrow gauge.
I told them we were carrying coals on the Great Western at Id.
per ton per mile when we did not find the waggons, and I told them
we would do the same on the Wolverhampton line. Ido not
think that is the minimum. If we have large quantities I think
we might do it at id. a ton. I never proposed to submit
the Great Western Company to the revision clause.
Last year, I think the London and Birmingham, joined
with us in opposition to the Bill for the revision clause. I
was not then aware that the London and Birmingham had pro.
posed to the Board of Trade to subject themselves to the revision
clause. Several interviews were had with the Board of Trade,
the inconveniences of the plan were shown, and the clause
was taken out and another substituted, taking old
railways out of the operation of the revision clause.
I was not aware that the London and Birmingham Company were
about to propose to submit to the revision clause, and, on the
contrary, I thought they would make no such bargain. Ido not
think that last year the London and Birmingham was so opposed
to the revision clause as the other companies. The power of revi-
sion as it now stands amounts to this, without preventing your in-
creasing your capita for limiting your expenditure, the Legislature
says you shall not pay more than ten per cent., without subjecting
yourself to revision, and then you will be guaranteed ten per cent.
It would operate as a premium on extravagant outlay, and gives
you no encouragement to extend your trade beyond ten
per cent., or to economise either. The only real and
efficient mode of check is a clause reserving a power
to revise the tolls. There could be no difficulty in always
keeping the expenditure so as to avoid revision. Share.
holders, instead of getting an increased dividend, got a premium
in new shares. The present system of revision is hurtful to the
public. The promoters of the Great Western line had not an
opportunity of meeting that of their opponents, on the ques-
tion of gauge, before the Board of Trade. I disclaim
any intention of finding fault with the Board of Trade; but in
consequence of the pressure of business, they did us great injus-
tice. There were several interviews with the Board of Trade re.
specting a line in which the Great Western were interested. They
applied to us to explain the objects of the Oxford and Rugby line,
and to the Birmingham also. In October Mr. Lang sent to me,
and said, that what he was about to say was not to be taken as a
final decision. He then told me, on the authority of Lord Dal-
housie—
HILDTARD put it to the Committee whether Yr. Lang
ought not to be called
The CHAlitbd•N said Mr. Saunders did net throw any imputations
on the Board of Trade, and he thought he might be permitted to
go on. If any thing were given in evidence affecting Mr. Lang,
he might be furnished with a copy of the
_evidence and reply to it,
if he wished.
Mr. Saunders's evidence resumed—Mr. Lang told me with re-
ference to Oxford and Rugby, the Board ,at Trade considered, on
public grounds, we ought to have it, as it was our interest to work
it most efficiently, but Lord Dalhousie bad asked if we would lay
down both the broad and narrow gauge. I asked the object of the
question, if it was merely to remedy the inconvenience of
the shifting of the goods. He said it was. I
replied that the expense would be too great, and that other means
would be devised by Mr. Brunel, which were explained, and he
was desired to ask Lord Dalhousie if he thought it would answer
the purpose. lie did so, and replied to me afterwards that they
did consider it would answer the purpose, and from that time until
they reported against us, we heard nothing further from them as to
the Oxford and Rugby line.
By the said that it was not a final decision, be-
cause they would not come to a final decision until the 80th Novel..
ber. He said it was a provisional decision, and we heard nothing
further. When the decision of the Board of Trade came out
Mr. Russell and myself had an interview with Lord
Dalhousie, and represented the matter to him. He said
he could not undertake to recollect all that passed be-
tween them—that they would not alter the decision—that he was
sorry if we had been injurod, but they must abide by the result of
any inquiry. I did not see Mr. Lang. We had no oppor-
tunity of bringing the merits of the broad and narrow
gauge on this line before the Board of Trade. I made frequent
communications on the subject of the broad and narrow gauge on
the Worcester and Wolverhampton line. In the latter commu-
nications I became aware that they attached importance as to
whether the change of guage should take place at Bir.
mingbam or Gloucester. I ascertained the Board of Trade
considered it was a question whether the broad gauge should be
carried to Birmingham or the narrow to Bristol, and I said
that it would be quite as easy for the broad gauge to be
carried to Birmingham. I explained to him the nature
of the agreement between the Gloucester and the Great
Western Company. I told him that, according to that agreement,
it would be impossible to carry the narrow gauge to BristoL After
this negotiations took place, and the line was purchased by a nar-
row gauge company. I pointed out to Mr. Lang that the minerals
of South Wales being brought by a broad gauge line to Standish, it
would be important to carry the broad gauge up to Birmingham.
We are the possessors of the line from Standish to Gloucester.—
' (The witness then pointed out upon the map the relative positions
of the respective broad gauge and narrow gauge lines in connexion
with the Gloucester Railways, and explained the rights of the
respective companies to the working of the respective lines). He
pointed out to the Board of Trade that it would be mere ad-
vantageous to take the broad gunge line to Birmingham,
than to bring the narrow gunge down to Gloucester, and he
thought so still. The Great Western had completed the Gloucester
line, and they had bound down the Gloucester Company not to
bring down another line of railway to their injury
atter they had completed the line for them and given
them the right of working it for ever. It would be
for the public advantage that in the Wolverhampton district
there should be a second line, which would enable the public to
exercise their option as to the broad or narrow gauge. The Bir-
mingham line would always have such advantages that, as long as it
acted fairly, we could not compete with them. I believe the Lon-
' don and Birmingham Company to be as well conducted as any
other, but 1 believe it Is for the benefit of the public, and of the
companies too that there should be something to keep them in
ch; ck. When 1 see the increase of traffic consequent upon the
lowering of fares, I have modified my opinions greatly on the subject
of competing lines. 1 think there is plenty of traffic for both. This
is the first time we have ever come in collision with the London sad
Birmingham, but they have come in collision with us on the
question of the Tring extension to Cheltenham. Where there is
a fair traffic that is likely to be remunerative it is for the interests
of the public that lines of railways should be extended. (The wit-
ness stated from the population returns that the population on the
Gt eat Western proposed line to Wolverhampton was 497,396, and
by the London and Birmingham proposed line it was
406,340). Between Oxford and Rugby by the Great Western
the population was was x 1,950, and by the London and Birming-
ham, 82,613.) The miles of new railway, on the Great Western
scheme. were 148 miles to make. The London and Birmingham
would have to make 171 miles and 5.81hs of new railway, the dif-
ference being 23 miles and s.Bths from of the Great Western.—
(The witness then put in the traffic tables) We are
prepared, in case the Bill should pass, to con.
sent to a maximum rate for coal and other articles.
The present maximum was Id. per mile, and ho was authorised
by the Directors to say, that they would admit as a maximum
Nd. per ton per mile, wherever It should he carried more than
fifty miles. The Company, in consideration of gaining this line,
were willing to accede to the terms proposed by the Board of
Trade —( l'he terms were then read by Mr. Cockburn, but so
rapidly that it was impossible to catch the purport.)
Cross-examined by Mr. 1111.D1CallD.—I do not think it would be
for the advantage of the London and Birmingham that the broad
gauge should be carried from London to Birmingham. We are acting
in harmony with the Grand Junction. Ido not contemplate car.
Tying the bread gauge further north than Wolverhampton,
but it may be done. In conversation it has been
suggested that the Grand Junction might think it advi.
sable to carry the broad gauge, as well as the narrow gauge,
on to Liverpool ; and it has been asked, if the Grand Junction
Company were to propose such a scheme, whether the Great
Western would assist them. (The witness was then cross-
examined as to the lines proposed by the South- Western in the
west of England, and pointed out their position on the map) The
Board of Trade re,ommended the Great Western projects in that
system, and rejected the South-Western. They did not impose
any conditions upon us for their decisions as they did in the Bir-
mingham lines. We got the whole of taose lines without any
conditions from the Board of Trade. We also got a decision in favour
of our South Wales line. There is no instance In which the Board
of Trade has repot ted against us except with regard to the present line.
With respect to the Newberry line, there were conflicting deci.
sions of Parliamentary Committees. Mr. Lang told me that it
was the opinion of Lord Dalhousie that we ought to have the
Oxford and Rugby line, if we would lay down the broad and
narrow gauge. I told him I had a plan which I thought would be
More economical, and which would equally answer the purpose.
I explained it to him. He said he thought it would answer
the purpose, I asked him to mention it to Lord Dalhousie ihe told me
he had done so, and that Lord Dalhousie said he thought it
Would answer the purpose, and I never had any communication on
the subject. The plan which I proposed was, that we should be
aiwlatst.hl
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afterwards,htihf shifting the
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preparedr ae mtßeinu gb Rugby. When
state
Wthact he
fait;;
t It;
it would
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thiaisrseildeebieslioown
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tihfawteiwf were
had Dem wronged we oho u- kt , —Ave an upporttinity of being

MOUTH RAILWAY.
(Continued from our Afternoon Edition of Saturday.)

To the re examination of Mr. Sergeant TALFOURI), Mr. Atkins
replied that the coaches which went to the West-end had also
branch coaches, or went direct to the City after calling at the
West-end. _

To the inquiries of Lord CLive, Mr. Atkins replied that though
the feeling of jealousy of Southampton was exaggera'ed, yet that
there was certainly cause for it, and he did not think that there
was so much attention shown to the interests of Portsmouth as to
those of Southampton.
To the inquiries of Mr. MONCITON MILNIIS, Mr. Atkins re.
plied that the indisposition to support the South-Western Company
arose from the little inclination hitherto exhibited by that Company
to oblige Portsmouth.
To the inquiries of Mr. °swill), the witness stated that in his
opinion Portsmouth would be placed on a par with Southampton,
if a line were to be made which would bring the former place within
the same distance and time as the latter.
To the inquiries of the CHAIRMAN—Mr. Atkins stated, that he
was aware that the proposed line by Guildford would be shorter
than the line to Gosport by eighteen or twenty miles, and would
bring back the traffic to Ryde, but he did not think that the
South-Western Company would give so fair a chance to Ports-
mouth as to Southampton. The first object of the people of
Portsmouth was an independent line, but their chief objects were
expedition and economy.
Captain Saar, formerly in the army, but now retired on full pay,
and a wine-merchant at Portsmouth—Was well acquainted with
both lines, and believed that the advantages derived from the
direct line would be greater than from the other, and cer.
tainly the proposition of the atmospheric line was very
enthusiast'cally received at the meeting on the 7th
of May at Portsmouth. The general opinion was in favour of the
Atmospheric line, and the terminus of that line would be most ad.
vantageous for the town.
From the cross.examination of Mr. GURNEY, it appeared that

GROUP V.

MIDL AND JUNCTION RAILWAY.

the mileage charge to Gosport was less than that to Southampton,
and the charge for the carriage of goods to Gosport was the same as
to Southampton, although the distance was greater, but
yet he thought that business had been Impeded.
11r. R. Gibbon, a merchant and general shipping agent, residing
at Portsmouth, stated that his firm paid Ss. 6d. a ton for goods
more than they did at the docks at Southampton. The terminus at
London.bridge, as well as that at Portsmouth, for the atmospheric
line was the best for the town. The Mediterranean packets
lay in quarantine at the Motherbank, which was about
five miles from Portsmouth, and fourteen from Southampton at
high water, and two miles farther when the sands wero bare.
Many passengers landed from the Oriental at the Motherbank this
week, and had left Portsmouth before the other passengers
reached Southampton. In his opinion it would save two hours to
the West India packets and the Government packets, if they stopped
at the Motherbank. There were three American packets out and
I three home every week. About fifty large East Indiamen called
at Portsmouth yearly and about twelve Madeira packets.

From the cross-examination of Mr. GURNIZY, It appeared
that the extra charge of eight shillings and sixpence a ton
arose from a charge of gm. Ad. for unloading and 6s. for cartage
from Gosport. The delay of which he complained was the refusal
of the Company to let his firm have their goods before
ten o'clock In the morning. They paid six shillings for
eartage of goods from the City to Nine-elms, aa.i he was
not aware the Oriental Company had fifty tons a week by
water, but they were of a different quality, being shipped to China
and the Uni.ed States. He had been on the Committee of the
Town Council, appointed to communicate with the South-Western
Company, and he believed that the answer was, that the Company
were ready to be bound to make the transit in every way as speedy
and efficient as to Southampton, and subject to such regulations as
the Board of Trade might impose. To the requirement of the Town
Council, that the journey should be performed in the same time
as to Southamptom, the distance being: two miles more, the
Company had replied that they would be bound to work the line
fairly, and without any favour to the one town or the other. At
the meeting on the 7th of May, four out of the number (nine) on
the Committee had resigned, but three others had since been ap-
pointed; but no communication had been had with the South.
Western Company since the report of the Committee had been
made to the Council. _

GROUP W.

Mr. Sergeant TALrouen said that he should now decline to call
any further witnesses from Portsmouth, but he wished to correct a
misrepresentation which appeared to have arisen from what he had
dropped In his observations yesterday. It had been supposed that
the people of Portsmouth had desired that, in the event
of the atmospheric line being refused, the House would pause
before they adopted any line, whereas what he had said was, that
in the event ef the atmosphere line being refused, they hoped the
House would pause before they adopted the Guildford line.
To the inquiries of Lord CLITII, the witness stated that the
extra charge of Ss. 6d. a ton on goods was merely imposed on ex-
port goods. The chief object of their communication with the
South.Westcrn Company had been to obviate the stoppages at
Bishopstoke, Chichester, and Portsmouth, and if they could obtain
a security that the goods sent to Portsmouth would be delivered
as soon as those sent to Southampton, the difficulty would be re.
moved.
Mr. RARLINSON then rose to address the Committee on behalf
of the Corporation of Portsmouth, and said that he thought they
had acted rightly and wisely in their attempt to protect the interests
of the inhabitants. There was no doubt that Portsmouth was en-
titled to a line connecting the town with the metropolis, and the
question was, who was to make it It would be recollected that
before the Southampton line had been completed an at.
tempt had been made to induce the South- Western Com-
pany to bring the line to Portsmouth, when it was replied to
them that they could come no nearer than Bishopstoke, which was
live miles from Portsmouth. The original intention of the South.
Western Company had been to go to Bath, and they had fought a
very severe battle with the Great Western Company in Parliament,
tied had been defeated. They had, therefore, us right to rely on
the vested interest which they assumed from their Gosport line,
and had no ground to depend upon for an opposition to a
direct line going through an entirely different country, and they
had therefore no claim on the Committee. This Guild.
ford line was not put forward witk a view to the
accommodation of the public, as had appeared by the evidence of
Mr. Chaplin ; but when the atmospheric line had been proposed
and published, the South-Western Company came forward, at the
eleventh hour, to interfere with it. No doubt could possibly be
entertained that the feeling of the inhabitants was unanimously in
favour of the direct line. Of all the witnesses called in favour
of the Guilford communication, one.half had been strangers ;
and those who were not, were not in a position to
know anything of the trade ef the port. With respect to
the termini, that of the atmospheric line took in, within a radius
of half a mile, fully three.fourths of the borough, while that
of the Guildford line was down at the edge of the water, in a
distant, unfrequented place, and possessing the single advantage of
transferring the Government property with. greater facility. As
regarded the prejudices of the inhabitants of Portsmouth, their
feelings might, he thought, be distinguished by a milder
term than that which had been used, and such promises
had been held out to them by the proprietors of the
atmospheric line as fully justified the preference which they
had expressed. The charges on the Southampton line had only
been reduced during the last three months, the second.class car-
riages were all open and exposed, and the passengers by that class
were only allowed 56Ibs. of luggage, while on the Manchester line
they were allowed 100I1ts. and I l2fiet. This was a great consi.
deration for persons going to a seaport, who generally required a
larger quantity of luggage than was usual. Another point was
the refusal to grant sufficient accommodation to the third-class
passengers, none indeed except such as the Board of Trade might
direct, and tke results of the traffic in past time was a
sufficient testimony of the fact. With their express trains there
was no accommodation for second-class passengers, except for a
limited number of servants. This was a grievance, and showed the
e
; and, besides that, the delay at Bishopstoke
occasioned onvenience. The interest which this Com-
nt of the
nomonopoly
small
pany had always shown for Southampton would doubtless induce the
Directors to give a preference to that town; and, if this line were
made, they would have no competition whatever to contend
with, and that was the only security of any useful
character for the public advantage. The Duke of
Richmond had expressed his opinion that, if another railway were
formed, the probability was that they would all fall into the same
hands, and the monopoly be worse than ever ; but he cited the
opinion of Sir R. Peel to show that such was not likely to be the
case. He would say one word about the line in favour of which
the Corporation had petitioned. Not only would the atmospheric
line supply a large area of country with railway con.munication,
but it would leave the coast line open, create competition, and
give the fairest opportunity for testing the principle that had
ever been offered to the public. But as this would be
brought fully before the Committee on Monday by the Learned
Counsel for the atmospheric line, he would say nothing further
on that point, and he would therefore beg of the Committee to
recollect that the people of Portsmouth were the most important
body upon the line, and their feelings and their interests ap-
peared evidently in favour of the opposing line. With these ob-
servations he would leave the matter in the hands of the Com-
mittee.
Mr. Feoon then addressed the Committee on behalf of the land-
owners of the line, after which
The Committee deferred their decision until they had heard the
evidence on the atmospheric line, which is to be opened on Mon-
day, and adjourned till twelve o'clock on that day.

GROUP N.
CORNWALL RAILWAY.
(Continued from our Afternoon Edition of Saturday.)
Mr. Cole, of Liskeard, had been occupied for the last 40 years in
surveying land in Cornwall. He had surveyed the land which
would be required west of Liskeard, and had estimated the expenses
at 18,6531. 185 acres would be required, at a general average of
101)1. per acre ; from Eldad to the ferry, at 5,4401. At the
latter point only one horse would be required, the expenses of which
was Included in the estimate. The land there was principally oc—
cupied by market.gardeners, and the remainder was pasture.
Mr. John Bowen, Mr. Carworth, and Mr. Whitley had also sur-
veyed portions of the line and given their estimate.
Sr C. Lemon was examined by Mr. Rowe with respect to
the various county meetings which had been held for the
purpose of constructing a railway in Cornwall. From the
first he was in favour of a coast line. Money was
a great obstacle to the construction of a central
line. It was important that there should be a direct line to Fal-
mouth from Exeter. Some of the leading magistrates were against
the line, but they bore no proportion to the great body who were in
favour of it. The mercantile body were in favour of it, and much
of the feeling which had been expressed against it had subsided.
The report of the Board of Trade on the line had dispelled the
delusions which were entertained by many respecting it.
To other questions put to Sir Charles by Sir. MBRIISWIITIISIB,
and Mr. DIEIISON, he replied that, with the increase of populatihn,
there would be a diminution of expense and increased facilities, and
that the Bodmin branch might be greatly extended.
Mr. Prothero, of Truro, the solicitor to the Bill, handed In
the various particulars in connexion with the Company.
Mr. TALBOT said he was instructed to withdraw the opposition
of Lord Vivian to the Bill, arrangements having been effected
with his Lordship, who was desirous not to oppose what might be
of advantage to the inhabitants of the county.
Mr. MERREwETinta said the opposition of the parties interested
in the Terpoint Ferry wac also withdrawn, so that there only re-
mained the opposition of Mr. Thomas.
The Committee then adjourned until Monday.

GROUP X.
LONDON AND YORK LINE.

GROUP SS,
The Committee 01l thi4 group rQ.asseinbled at the usual hour this
morning, and proceeded with the affirmative evidence in favour of the
COVENTRY, nEDIATORTH, AND MITNE.A.TON

_ _
Mr. I. S,rnith, R ribbqnrtatxx.w.foc
the totintony 6iven Teiterday.
-manufacturer at Isedworth, corroborated

Mr. Samuel Smith, an undertaker at Atticborough, employed
upwards of 12 men. There were about 68 or 70 undertakers in
the town of Attleborough alone, who employed upwards of 1,000
men, who would be greatly benefited by the proposed railway.
Mr. Thomas Nestor gave concurrent testimony.

Mr. Calloway, an overseer at Toleshill, said the railway would
be a great accommodation to the vast coal mines in that district,
and facilitate and increase the trade in a species of blue bricks that
are manufactured in large quantities at Marston and Chilmsloton.
These bricks were of a very superior quality, and were used
extensively in the construction of railways and canals.
Mr. Frederick James, of Wyken, proved that coal was sold in
that neighbourhood, at the pits' mouth, at 6s. Bd. per ton. They
raised during the last six months 17,000 tons of large coal, and
3,000 of small, which all had to pass over the route of the pro-
posed railway. There were about 300 acres of coal fields yet to
be worked, and there could be no doubt the line would prove of
great service to the colliers.
Mr. Nutter, a coal dealer at Leamington, proved that there
were 18,000 to 20,000 tons of Staffordshire coals sold in that town
annually. The price of this coal differed from 15s. to 20s. per
ton; but if this railway were made it would enable other coal to
come Into the market, and thus tend materially to reduce the
price.
Mr. David Weldon, one of the proprietors of a stone quarry at
Hartshill, exported from 10,000,t0 15,000 tons of stones for repairing
roads annually, and he thought the railway would considerably
Increase the trade.

Mr. Tattersal, town clerk of Coventry; Mr. Rotheram, an ez-
tensi►e miller and grocer at Coventry ; and Mr. H. Harris, a coal.
dealer near to Coventry, having given simillar evidence,

Mr. Brown, an accountant, who had taken the traffic accounts
on many existing railways, was called to prove the traffic-tables.
His calculations were made in March last, and occupied 14 days.
He held in his hand the result of all his inquiries, 10,9681. 2.. 10d.
The present number of passengers going annually over the route
of the proposed railway was 98,652. The present amount of
casual traffic going by carts, waggons, &c., was 65,468 tons, travell.
ing a distance equal to 392,808 tons carried one mile.
The canal traffic going by canal and other con-
ceyancee was 34,500 tons carried over a distance
equal to 207,000 toes carried one mile. The merchan-
dise traffic was 17,02834 tons, carried a distance equal to 110,385
tons carried one mile. The expected traffic to come on the rail.
way was as follows:—Coal traffic, 3,1011. 18s. 6d. ; from stone,
4331. 6s. Bd.; from merchandise, 1,2771. 2s. Id.; from passengers,
10,9681. 2s. 10d. ; from parcel traffic, 2731. ; and from cattle
traffic, 279 a. 17s. 7d., making a grand total of 16,3331. Ss Bd.
It being now four o'clock, the Committee adjourned till Monday.

THE MANCHESTER, SHEFFIELD, AND

The Committee met at twelve o'clock, and
Mr. ♦ignoles was called upon to speak to the engineering upon
the above line. He had laid out the general features of the line
about a year before, and there was only one alteration made since
in the details of the plan, which alteretion had met his approval.
The line was the very best that could be taken, for while it gave an
improved communication with the north and south it opened up
a rich mineral district. He had examined the estimates, and
thought they would be amply sufficient for cost of construction.
The length of line was above 12 miles, and the steepest
gradient in the length was one in 810, and that for
a distance only of a mile and three quarters. The
curve of least radius was some twenty chains. The range of
the curve at Chesterfield would be eighteen chains, and the Shef-
field was about the same extent. The strata on the whole line
was very favourable to engineering operations. It passed through
the mineral fields of Newbold, Mustin, and Dronfield, and did not
Interfere with any very valuable or ornamental property. It formed
a continuous line of railway with the Manchester and Midland
Junction. The greatest depth of embankment would be 50 feet, and
the deepest cutting about 70 feet. These were very short, however.
He proposed to cross part of Sheffield by a viaduct, and in order to
preserve as much space as possible in the markets, he intended that
the piers should be of cast iron. The estimate of construction
was 400,0001., and he had already stated that it would be amply
sufficient. It was not intended to cross any highway on a level.
The Bill which had been promoted last year was not so favourable
as the present, because the summits were higher. There would be
a tunnel on the line of 2,103 yards at the inclination of 1 in 100,
and no ventilating shafts would be necessary, because the very
front of the inclination would create a current.

Cross-examined by Mr. WIIATELZT—He had furnished a report
of the preferable line between Chesterfield and Sheffield to the
Provisional Committee of last year, and it was in its main feature
identical with this line. The construction of the tunnel he
estimated at 421. 10s. the yard. The viaduct he took
generally at 201. per yard. That did not of course include injury
to property, &c. The total cost of the viaduct he estimated at
44,0001. The earth-work he calculated at 94,374/. ; bridges and
culverts, 26,0001. He thought the whole work 'night be very well
done in a couple of years, as a great mass of the cutting would go
to spoil, which would naturally lessen the labour. The ten miles
out of Carlisle, on the Carlisle and Newcastle' Railway were much
mere difficult than the present line. The average of the embank-
ments was 1 to 1.
Mr. Cope was recalled, and he was rigidly cross-examined by
Mr. NNHATHLEY, regarding the accuracy of his traffic tables. The
Learned Counsel failed to shake the evidence given on the pre-
vious day by the witness.

The Committee then adjourned till half.past eleven on Monday,

AYTON AND GOOLE RAILWAY.
The Committee on this line met to-day at twelve o'clock, Mr.
Pakington in the chair. The examination of
Mr. M. Bentley was then resumed by Mr. PICKYRINO.—The
water carriage was, in his opinion, a better mode of conveyance
than the rail. In the lime season the quantity consumed
from March to September was about 400,000 tons daily. The
railway carriages would hold on an average about three tons of
lime each. It would therefore take an immense number of car-
riages to: convey that quantity. He considered it would not be
worth his while as a lime.burner to send his lime by the rail. Has
himself nine vessels engaged in the trade. There were fifty or sixty
vessels altogether employed in the lime trade at Knottingley, in-
cluding canal boats and river vessels. The vessels engaged in the
coasting trade were about 300. lithe proposed Wakefield, Pontefract,
and Goole Railway were formed it would cause a serious injury to
the owners of those vessels—he meant those engaged in the corn-
trade. It would not decrease the number of vessels employed in
the lime trade, as lime.burners would still prefer the canal. The
corn would also, in his opinion, be still sent by water conveyance.
By the CHAIRMAN—Had stated that the rail would decrease the
number of vessels. Did not think that this decrease would take
place in consequence of the rail being selected in preference to the
canal for the conveyance of corn. Thought that the proposed
Wakefield and Goole line would injure Pontefract. The farmer
would then bring his corn to the Wakefield or Leeds market—the
farmer would be a gainer by It.
Cross-examined by Mr. Wartrie—The people of Knottingley
were in favour of the proposed Wakefield and Goole line. (A pe-
tition was here handed to witness.) Knew many of the people
who signed that petition. It was signed by the principal men of
wealth and substance in Knottingley. It was signed, however, in
consequence of an apprehension that another line would be laid
down which would not take Knottingley in its course ; it was a
choice of two evils, and they preferred to sign that petition in fa-
vour of the Wakefield and Goole line. Was part owner of eleven
vessels. Heard the evidence of Mr. Moorehouse ; knew that he
was a very large lime-burner, and had a great many vessels engaged
in the trade.

The CHAIRMAN here interfered, and said that the evidence of
the witness had so far gone to show the superiority of water
carriage to conveyance by rail, and therefore affected the Brayton
and Goole suggested line as much as the proposed Wakefield, Pon-
tefract, and Goole line.
Messrs. PICKERING and KNownes said that their object was to
show that Wakefield was not the key of the position of the traffic
of the country, but they would call direct evidence to prove the
necessity for the formation of the Brayton and Goole line.
Mr. Alexander Sherriff was then examined by Mr. PICKERING—
Was manager of the goods depot on the Leeds and Selby Railway.
Knew the trade generally of the West Riding and about Leeds.
There was a considerable traffic between Leeds and Hull. There
were great inconveniences for the accommodation of that traffic to
Hull, from want of docks. The dock and wharfage dues were very
high, and there would be no chance of a reduction in these with.
out a competing port. Goole would afford ample accommodation
for the traffic. The we ol.merchants complain of the delay of
the delivery of their wool at Leeds after its arrival at Hull. Some-
times four or five days elapse from the arrival of the wool and its
delivery. There was a great deal of traffic on the Ayr and Calder
canal. The import trade for 1844 has been—
Bags of German wool
Flax
Sheets of English wool, to Leeds
Ditto, to Bradford
Bales of wool, from Van Dieman's Land 6,964
Sacks of flour, from London
Tons of general goods, by sailing vessels 2,600
Ditto, by steam-vessels to Hull

The export trade was 4,750 tons of linen from Leeds
to Hull ; 1,570 tons from Bradford to Hull ; 1,410 tons
from Leeds to London. There were 13,00• sheep sent annually
from Hull and the stations on the line, and 910 head of cattle. If
there were a direct line between Leeds and Goole, a great traffic
would go to Goole. The amount of the export and import trade
between the places mentioned was about 32,543 tons annually.
The Wakefield and Goole line would benefit Leeds, but not to so
great an extent as the Brayton and Goole line.
By the CHAIRMAN—The reason that the traffic would go to
Goole from Hull was the superior accommodation which it af-
forded. At present the merchants were entirely at the mercy of
the shipping agents at Hull.
By Lord SICTMOUR—Was manager of the Leeds and Selby line,
but was not on that account an interested witness.

This witness was crass.examined at great length by Mr. WILKINS.

Mr. Thomas Matthewson—Lived at Stockton-on. Tees. Was a
coal-fitter for the Durham County Coal Company. This Company
sold annually 200,000 tons of coal. 140,000 tons of this quantity
were for exportation ; 40,000 tons went to York, the half of which
was consumed along the line between the collieries and lurk,
and the other half at York. The effect of the proposed Brayton
and Goole line would, In his opinion, considerably extend this
trade in coal.
Alter the croas.examination of this witness,

The CHLIRM&N asked Mr. Knowles what order he intended to pur.
sue with respect to the additional evidence he would bring forward
In reply to which Mr. Knowles said that he had been obliged to
change the course he had first laid down, in consequence of an ob-
servation which fell from the Chairman, and he had called witnesses
to prove, independently, the necessity for the formation of the
Brayton and Goole line. He had now regretted that he did not
open the case with a general statement.
The CULIMWAN said that it was the wish of the Committee that
a continuous chain of evidence should be given on all points,
and that one should be concluded before another was commenced.
Mr. Krrowurs concurred in the observations of the Chairman,
and called upon

Mr. Georgo Andrews, who concurred In the evidence of the last
witness. The coal trade would be greatly increased if there was
an outlet at York for the conveyance of coals. The proposed
Brayton and Goole line would in his opinion effect this.
Mr. Joseph Fletcher was next examined, and gave similar evi-
dence. As the cross.examination of this witness was about to
commence,

The CH /AMMAN said, that as it only wanted five minutes to three
o'clock (the time appointed yesterday for the conclusion of the pro-
ceedings to.day) he thought it better not to enter into it.
The Committee then adjourned till twelve o'clock on Monday.

The Committee assembled at twelve o'clock, and resumed
The engineering evidence, by continuing the cross-examination
of Mr. Cubitt. Previous to his being asked a question, an applica.
tion was made to:that Committee to permit Mr. Cubitt's attendance
in another Committee for a few minutes, to prove a report, which
was granted. On his return,
Mr. Tammy resumed his cross-examination—The 596,0001.
was the estimate for land on the main line, for 186 miles, at
3,2001. per mile—that included the forty-nine acres for the
King's-cross station. Could not say that he was aware of any line
on which the land was had for that; at Hornsey, the
line traversed ornamental property to some extent. Could not
say whether that was the case with the London and Birmingham.
At the commencement of the London and York line at London se-
veral small streets would be inclosed, but no existing accesses
would be taken away. The width of the Regent's Canal, where
witness proposed to cross it, was about 100 feet. He proposed to
abridge that considerably, but would allow space for the passage of
one boat, by an aqueduct. Had had an interview with the canal
engineer on the subject, but he did not say he was satisfied.
Here the model was produced, and the witness showed where
the alteration was proposed to be made. He proposed
to abridge the wharfage, which would be a matter for
claim for compensation. Had heard that the canal company were
petitioners against the Bill. He proposed to pass under the canal
without altering the level of the canal. If that should be found
to be an insurmountable objection, the bridge should be widened,