The Sun.
London, England, 1829-07-11 00:00:00

GUILDHA LL.

It is known that Sir PETER LAURIE has given
notice of motion for the county day of the next
Middlesex Sessions, that a committee be appointed
to consider the expediency of two Grand Juries sit-
ting at the same time, in order to shorten the attend-
ance of witnesses, and thereby diminish the charge
upon the county-rate. The subject was referred to
by Sir PETER LAURIE in the following case, which
came before him yesterday :
In April last, a saddle was stolen from the back of
a horse belonging to a Mr. Champion, and the next
day a woman offered to pledge the saddle at Mr.
Knapp's, a pawnbroker, in Golden-lane, who desired
her to send the party to whom it belonged. A man
named Brown soon presented himself, who finding
Mr. Knapp suspected it had been stolen, attempted
to run away, but was secured, and the property being
advertised at the • City's expense, the owner was
traced, and the prisoner was committed. lie had
been before convicted of felony, and was again found
guilty on the seventh day of the last sessions. When
the next case had been called, Briggs, the constable,
asked the prosecutor if he had applied to the Court
to have the property given up to him. Mr. Cham-
pion answered " No," he had not supposed that to
be necessary. " Then your saddle is forfeited to the
Sheriff," rejoined the constable. Mr. Champion,
turning to the pawnbroker with astonishment, asked
if this could be true. "Never mind," said Mr. Knapp,
" I'll take care of it ;" and thereupon he took it out
of court and carried it home, and when Mr. Cham-
pion applied for it, Mr. Knapp demanded 1/. for his
trouble. This he deemed an imposition, and ap-
pealing to the sitting magistrate, Briggs, the con-
stable, came forward and excused himself by saying
he had delivered the saddle to the prosecutor, and
not to the pawnbroker.

Yesterday Mr. Knapp attended to explain his con-
duct. Upon being asked the nature of the services
which entitled him to the demand, he said that he
had taken the trouble to inquire at Torrington-mews,
and many others at the west end of the town,
whether a saddle had been lost, and had paid for
carrying it from the Old Bailey.
Sir P. LAURIE said, if this claim were admitted,
some persons would charge the expenses of excur-
sions of pleasure, under colour of trying to make
such discoveries. lie inquired what expenses had
been allowed at the Old Bailey.
Mr. Knapp replied, that he had 225. Gd., and his
father 255. The constable also had 225. Gd., and
prosecutor some expences.

Sir PETER said, this was tolerably heavy, con-
sidering the value of the saddle ; but be was in pos-
session of a case where a person was committed
from the Worship-street office, for stealing an article
worth Is. 6(1., while the county was saddled %vith
12 days' expenses to the witnesses, at 3s. 6d. each
per diem, five days at the Sessions-house, and seven
before the Magistrate. He ordered Mr. Knapp to
give up the saddle immediately ; the 21. 7s. Gd. was
an ample remuneration to him for his trouble.
Mr. Knapp said he thought differently.
" But you wanted to do an act of honesty and
justice," observed the ALDERMAN.

" Yes, but not to my detziment," replied the
pawnbroker.

" Well, I desire you to give up that saddle," said
Sir PETER, peremptorily.

_
" Yes, I will," said Mr. Knapp, " but I shall
certainly take other means to recover my demand of
Mr. Champion."—The parties then withdrew.

BOW-STREET.
A second summons having been issued upon the
information of Mr. Fenn, of Charing-cross, calling
upon the churchwardens and overseers of St. Mar-
tin's parish to show cause why they should not be
fined under the provisions of the 17th of George 11.
for not having furnished in the book kept for that
purpose " a full, true, and perfect account of cer-
tain items of expenditure paid out of the parish
funds by the said overseers ;" this office was yester-
day crowded to excess by persons interested in the
decision of the question.

Mr. MINSHULL and Mr. HALLS were on the
bench, and it was understood that the hearing of
the case was fixed for yesterday, in order to secure
the attendance of the latter Magistrate.

Mr. Fenn, .and several inhabitant householders of
St. Martin's, were in attendance at the time ap-
pointed, but the overseers did not think proper to
attend in person, and deputed their clerk, Mr. Raw-
lings, again to represent them.

Mr. Rawlings re-stated the objections which he
urged on the last occasion, and

Mr• MtssuuLL having repeated his opinion that
.he overseers were subject to the penalty named in

the Act of Parliament for having failed to comply
with its provisions,
Mr. HALLS asked to see Mr. Fenn's information,
and finding that it had not been laid before two
Magistrates, expressed his opinion that the instru-
ment was legally deficient, and that no proceeding
could be had upon it.
Mr. MINSHULL, after expressing a different opi-
nion, proposed to go into the case at once, and asked
Mr. Rawlings if the overseers had received the
summons.
Mr. Rawlings—l I,now nothing about it; they
may or may not. I shall take every objection that
I can, because I contend this proceeding is contrary
to the act of Parliament.
Mr. MiNsnum..—lf the overseers do not think
proper to appear before us, I, for one, gill proceed
without them.

Mr. HALLS—And convict them ex park?
Mr. MlNsuuLL—Most certAinly.

Mr. HALLS repeated, that in his opinion the infor-
mation was informal. He was contemplating a con-
viction, and would be sorry to proceed to that ex-
tent, and then find that he was wrong. In the face,
too, of Mr. Rawlings' declaratio*hat he would take
every objection, it would be absurd to proceed upon
a deficient instrument.

Mr. MINSHULL contended that Mr. Halls' objec.
tion was not valid, in point of law. It was of no
consequence whether his information was received
by one magistrate only, provided it was heard be-
fore two.

Mr. Fenn was willing to concede any thing in
reason ; and if necessary, he would present a new
information. He thought it, however, not a little
hard, that after two magistrates had already gone
into the case, he should be told by a third that his
information was not good in point of law.
Mr. MINsnULL—I can only say, that I differ from
my friend Mr. Halls, and am ready to proceed. Do
you object to enter into the merits of the case, Mr.
Halls, for the reason you have stated ?
111 r. HALLS—I certainly do ; but I beg Mr. Fenn
to understand, that my objection is founded upon a
point of law, and not upon the merits of the case,
for I confess I know nothing of them.

Mr. MissnuLL—Then Mr. Fenn must draw up
a second information.

Mr. Fenn—l am willing to do so, and perhaps the
Magistrates will be kind enough—l ask it as a fa-
vour—to give me now an opportunity of vindicating
my character, which to me is dearer than my life.
When I had the honour of appearing here the other
day, I said that Sir Richard Birnie had stated in
his evidence before a Committee of the House of
Commons, that he never—

Mr. MINSIIULL-I beg, Mr. Fenn, you will not
make any observations upon the conduct of Sir
Richard 13irnie in his absence.
Mr. Fenn—Nor would I do so, Sir, but that I
particularly requested his attendance here to-day, in
order that he might have an opportunity of hearing
what I had to say. He promised he would be pre-
sent, but has failed to perform that promise, and it
is therefore that I take the liberty of requesting the
attention of the Magistrates while I read to them
what Sir Richard Birnie himself said, when before a
Committee of the House of Commons.

Mr. MiNsuum.—Mr. Fenn we cannot hear you,
for the reason I have stated.

Mr. Fenn—l bow to your decision, and only
meant to refute the imputation of having uttered a
falsehood.

Mr. llALLs—Before you give yourself the trouble,
Mr. Fenn, of furnishing a fresh information, allow
me to ask you if the accounts which you are desirous
to inspect have been regularly passed by two Magis-
trates 9.

Mr. Fenn replied in the affirmative, but denied
that that fact had any thing to do with the present
question.
Mr. HALLS—I am clearly of opinion, without
touching at all upon the merits of the case, that your
proper course is an appeal to the Sessions.
Mr. Fenn—The fact is, I do not think an appeal
to the Sessions would obtain the object which I
seek; besides, it is attended with an expense which
I am ill able to bear, having already expended a con-
siderable sum of money in this business.
Mr. HALLS lam clearly of opinion, Mr. Fenn,
that the course which you have adopted will not
lead you to a proper remedy. As Magistrates sit-
ting here, we have no power to revise the decision
of other Magistrates, by whom these accounts have
been regularly passed. Your appeal must be to a
higher power,—either to the Sessions or a Court
of Law.

Mr. MissHuLL—l myself advised Mr. Fenn, in
the first instance, to appeal to the Sessions, and it
was not until he declined doing so, that I looked
over the Act of Parliament, the 17th of Geo. 11.,
and upon reading that, I was fully of opinion, and
em so still, that if Mr. Fenn could make good his
charges upon oath, the overseers were liable to a
penalty.
Mr. HALLS—The Act says, that the accounts of
the parish shall he handed over to succeeding over-
seers, and that they shall contain a just,, true, and
perfect account, and that these accounts shall be
verified before one or more Justices of the Peace.
Now, these accounts having been so verified before
two Magistrates, I think that the churchwardens
and overseers have done all that the law requires
them to do, and I repeat, that if an appeal be made
against those accounts, it must he made to some
power haring a jurisdiction superior to the Magis-
trates who passed them.
Mr. MlNsituta,--I am decidedly of a different
opinion, and I contend that the Act of Parliament
upon which Mr. Fenn has grounded his information,
gives us the power, without reference to what other
Magistrates may or may not have done, to compel
the overseers to produce a full, true, and particular
account of the parish expenditure, and if they fail
to do so, we are authorized by that Act to inflict a
fine upon them.
Mr. HALLS—You are now going into the:merits,
Mr. Minshull: my objection is, that we have no
jurisdiction to entertain the question at all.

Mr. MINSHULL—Then am I to understand you
decline to proceed ?

Mr. HALLS—Certainly; I refuse to act upon two
grounds—first, because in my opinion the informa-
tion is deficient in point of form ; and in the second
place, because I think we have no jurisdiction in the
case.- At the same time that lam compelled to
make these objections, I beg to say that I am per-
fectly favourable to the application of Mr. Fenn.
Mr. MiNsHem.—Then, as far as this office is
concerned, the business must drop.
Mr. Fenn—Perhaps Mr. Halls will indulge me
li all expenses.
ofexpenses-
for
my
the defendants, and I should
11 for a moment while I state one simple fact, which
is this, that I have no means whatever to appeal to
the sessions, for this reason, that the evidence upon
which alone I could ground my application is with-
held from me. The Worthy Magistrate must be
aware, that if I go into a court of law in order to
establish certain facts, I must be provided with
evidence to prove those facts. Now the only evi-
dence I can get is the entry in the book of Mr.
Cuff's bill, which may be for so much flour or pota-
toes, for any thing I can tell the contrary. What
of course
btthle:jlr‘. saddled%u'ro
l-yuIA withlwio ud becomefi
ants—But that would not be a just verdict.
Mr. Fenn—Certainly not, Sir; but law and jus-
tice are two distinct things.
no man in his senses could say that it
Mr. MiNstium.—With respect to the entry of
Cud's's
perfect entry, and I therefore consider that
the bill itself, to which a direct reference is made,
becomes part of the entry, and ought to have been
produced. I wish to know if the overseers will
even bring forward the books. Where is Mr.
Rawlings ?
An officer—He is gone some time, Sir.-(A laugh.)
Mr. Fenn—Sir Richard Birnie himself acknow-
ledged that the entry in the book was imperfect, and
expressed a si-
milar Mr. I-lALts—l certainly did say so, and I now
repeat that you are entitled to see the accounts.
Mr. Fenn-1 have done all in my power to obtain
worthy
nr Magistrate (Mr. Halls)
the t v
opinion.