The Sun.
London, England, 1827-05-04 00:00:00

derstanding that the answer is to be a mere matter of
courtesy, it sometimes does happen that a Member, with-
out any previous notice, asks leave .to put a brief ques-
tion to the Minister, upon a subject of pressing import-
ance. Such I have, speaking from my own recollec-
tion and experience, always understood to be the
course ; but I never, I repeat, recollect any instance
of a question . without notice being accompanied by a
speech such as we have this night heard from the Hun.
Member opposite..—(Cheers.)—This was my impression,
and I have since consulted others, who declare it to be
correct.—(llear.)--That any Hon. Member, under the
pretence of asking a question, should seize the opportunity
of introducing a motion, and that motion, too, thrust
forward in the middle of another motion of great and almost
paramount importance, the business' of the evening, and
the discussion upon which the House was most anxiously
awaiting, is, however, I repeat, a circumstance alto-
gether unprecedented in the annals of Parliament.—(Loud
clieers.)—To that question thus put to me, and under
these circumstances, I applied my observation when I said
the attempt was only calculated to excite disgust.—(Hear.)
—There is a consequence, too, resulting from it which
the Hon. Gentleman does not foresee; and that is, that
no Minister, if such a course is pursued, will feel himself
bound to answer such questions at all.—(Hear.)—The
Hon. Member made it a matter of complaint against me,
and as a reason for his conduct, that I was not in my place
at the time he expected, and when he wished his question.
to be answered. But did not the Hon. Gentleman recol-
lect it was usual, in such cases, to have the courtesy to
give some notice of a Member's intention ? If he had
given me, by any means, the slightest intimation that he
intended to put any question to me, it certainly should
have brought me down instantly to give a reply, but,
even then I might hare felt not a little surprised at the
course pursued by the Hon. Member—a course so absurd
and so inconvenient, that any one must see it could not for
a moment be tolerated.—(Chee.s.)—l rejoice, Sir, how-
ever, that the standard of Opposition is at length raised in
this House.—(Loud cheers.)—Such an act is to me worth
a thousand professions of qualified neutrality.---( Vehement
cheers.)—ln whatever mind the feeling of hostility lurks,
let it come boldly forth, and boldly will I meet it.—(Con-
tinned cheering.)—There have been one or two questions
asked me—l trust the House will extend its indulgence to
mei while I briefly answer them. I am asked what I mean
to do on the subject of Parliamentary Reform? Why, I
say—to oppose it—to oppose it to the end of my life in
this House, .under whatever shape it may appear.—
(Cheeee.)—l am asked, what is nay opinion nu, the subject
of the Test Act ; I say to oppose it.-•,-7(Citeers.)--,,1t-. has
happened by some coincidence, that the Test Act, is one 'of
the subjects upon which it has never yet been my lot to pro-
nounce an opinion in this House.: But yet I have an
opinion upon it, and Ido not hesitate to • declare it. I
think that the exertions of the Legislature ought to' be
directed to the relief of practical- and not theoretical
grievances; and that inasmuch as any meddling with
the Test Act might go
.to prejudice that great question,
the success of which. I have most truly at my heart, there-
fore I will oppoie it.—(Cheers.) I hope I have spoken
out. I hope I have made myself clearly understood.—
(Hear, hear.) As to the charge brought against us by the
Hon. Baronet (Sir E. Knatchbull), that the Government,
when called upon to give an answer upon the subject of its
composition and its policy, left the answer to those who
had no apparent interest in or connection with the ques-
tion. Sir, I deny the charge.—(Cheer§.) I say, with-
out hesitation, that the accusation is untrue.—(Loud
cheers.) I did not shrink from the question. It was not
addressed to me ; but I never will shrink from explanation
or defence, either to the hostility of the open and manly
foe, or to the not less dangerous insinuations of the dis-
avowed opponent.—(Loud and long continued cheering.)

Sir. E. KNATCIiBULL said, in explanation, thatbe-
fore the Right Hon. Gentleman so warmly declared the ac-
cusation to be untrue, he ought to have first known what
that accusation was. He never said that the Right Hon.
Gentleman refused to answer the charge brought against
him—he only complained that others had given that
answer which ought to have come from the Government.

Mr. CANNING.—I am sorry to say, that I.think the
explanation makes the accusation worse. The Hon.. Bart.
mistakes, or seems to mistake, the real state of the case. I
stated that the accusation was altogether:unfounded, and,.
he still maintains, that Government being called upon for ex-
planation, I declined to give it, I say, that the call was made
upon those, who have joined the. Government, to chew why
they have supported it. The proposition 'advanced by the
Hon. Baronet is, therefore, founded on the argurnentuni
ad inridiuni, in the highest degree.--(Hear, hear.)--His
charge was, that the Government of the country was called
upon for explanation, and that I declined or avoided giving
it. In his second charge, he said that others had taken the
explanation out of my mouth ; whilst thaact is, that the
call being, as I have already stated, made upon my Hon.
Friends, to ehew why they support me, they rose to do so.
Not a word that has been said called upon me for explana-
tion. There was another thing by whith the Hon. Bart.
might know, that what was &list did not call upon me fur
reply, for my Right Hon. Friend,. I. know from my know-
ledge of his character, would not, whatever others might
have done, have put categorical questions to me, to which I
could not by the rules of the House, have replied, having
already spoken, I have no hesitation in saying, that there
has been nothing like wilful misrepresentation on the part
of the Hon. Baronet.—(Cheers.)—Whatever-mistake he
may have been betrayed into is referable, solely,, no,doulat,
to the heat of debate ; and, as to any personal feeling,which
he may have attributed to me, I can assure.. him, that
I bear anger on these occasions but. as the flint carries
fire.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. PEEL bore testimony to the correctness with which
his Right Hon. Friend had stated the effect of his (Mr.
Peel's) allusions.—(Hear, bear.)—While, however, be ac-
knowledged that the Right Hon. Gentleman- hail set his
Hon. Friend right in this respect, lie must contend, that he
had a fair political right to ask those who had accepted
office, under the new Government, why they had so taken
office ? He thought, however, that, throughout his speech,
he had most particularly implied, that he was satisfied his
Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Canning) intended to adhere to
his principles, and, acting upon his own views of the in-
terests of the Established Church, he (Mr. Peel) still consi-
dered, that he was fairly justified in demanding of those
who had taken office, on what principles they, had Joined,
his Right Hon. Friend ? In conclusion, he could not help
saying, that he looked upon the animadversions of the Hon.
Bart. on the other side; in relation to any thing which had
fallen from him (Mr. Peel) as totally-uncalled for.—(Hear.)
Sir F. BURDETT explained, 'but was not audible in.the
gallery.
Lord J. RUSSELL had-felt considerable surprise at the
irregularity which the late Right Hon. Home Secrctaary
had committed, in at first saying, that he was about to
speak on the propriety of the Houses voceLlling with the
motion of the Hon. and Gallant General, and then going
into certain charges, at great length, against those who had
accepted office under the new Government, and giving his
own reasons for refusing to do so.—(Hear.):—Now, as he;
(Lord J. R.) did not mean to accept office himself under it,
lie might,- perhaps, the more readily be allowed to make a
few observations on the speech of the Right Hon. Gentle-
man, who had said. among other things; that he supposed, if
there was any principle of union which bound together the
parties comprising the present Administration, it was the
wish that there should be some change effected in the Con-
stitution of Parliament.--(Hear.)—He (Lord J. R.) was
astonished at this remark ; for the Right Hon. Gentle-•'
man might have remembered to have heard the Hon.
Member for Knaresborough, but a very few Sessions
ago, declare his conviction, and from the other side of the
House (Lord John Russell spoke from under the Minis-
terial gallery), that Parliamentary Reform never could be
a party question in this country.,—(Chiere.)—lt might be
allowed him, also, to state a fact, which he had, perhaps,
better reason to he informed of than the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman, and that corroborated this vieiv'of the case. He
himself, some feW years since„ had expresSed his Wish that
the whole 'Of the party with which 'he 'Voted shOuld
unite to promote the cause of Parliamentary Reforni ; but
it then appeat'ed not only that most of the leaders of that
party were'deiirous that it should 'not be made a party
question, but that the Whig party, if they should come in
as a party, would be opposed to it, or any other measure
having Parliamentary Reform for its object.--(Hear, hear.)
This fact he mentioned to show that it could not be justly
imputed as a crime to any person, with whom he had been
in the habit of voting, to have taken office on the present
occasion, without having stipulated that Parliamentary
Reform should be made a party question. But, perhaps,
the Right Hon. Gentleman expected that he (Lord John
Russell) should introduce that question, again, to the House.
It happened unfortunately again, that the` very last time he
had mentioned the question, in the course of the last Ses-
sion, he had declared that that would be the last occasion
of his doing so. And why had he (Lord J. Russell)
made that declaration? Because he had found a great
lukewarmness on the subject throughout the country—
(Hear)—and that growing lukewarmness, h believed to be
attributable to the improvement whiCh had taken place in
the manner of conducting the Goverm;nent.—(Cheers. )
Whether the people of this kingdom were right or wrong
in allowing themselves to become indifferent upon such a
cause, it was not now for him to examine; but he did be-
lieve, that as long as they saw the general affairs .of the
country well conducted, and actuated by a spirit of im-
provement, they would not look too narrowly into the
Constitution Of that House of Parlianient. At all events,

such a lukewarmness-did at present prevail ; and be
had, therefore, found it necessary to give up the course
he had pursued formerly, of constantly bringing this
topic under the consideration of Parliament.—(Hear).7---"
The Right HOU. Gentleman hiniselfwould give him leave to,
say, on the other hand, that if any one thing more than
another could be calculated to produce Parliamentary Re-
form, in a few years it would be placing that Right Hon.
Gentleman in one of the highest situations of the Govern-
inent—(Hear, hear.)—for, in that case, and under such
political principles, Ireland would be so afflicted with con-
tending factions, and all their trains of insurrections and
political misery, according to his anticipations, that her
dreadful state would furnish an irresistible argument for
the necessity of Parliamentary Reform.—(Hear, hear: )---
Ile (Lord J. Russell) too sincerely loved his country to
desire to see Parliamentary Reform effected at such a price.
Then, again, as to the Right Hon. Gentleman near him
(Mr. Canning), after seeing him for so many years backed
by those who had now deserted him, and his progress
fettered, and his powers' clogged, on too many occasions,
by the views of some among those with whom he had co-
operated, he was, also, too. happy to find that Right Hob.
Gentleman no longer so restrained, but at the head of his
Majesty's Govvernment, to wish to moot against him the
necessity of Parliamentary Reform, under circumstances
like the present.---(Loud cheering.)
Mr. DAWSON, in reply, began by declaring that he
should not divide the House upon his motion.—(Hear,
hear. )—But he must observe, that a question having been
by him addressed to the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite
(Mr. Canning), that Right Hon. Gentleman had got up,
and, in a manner most uncourteons, and as he (Mr. DO
thought, very unparliamentary, certainly had answered
him. Of the conciseness of that answer—(Laughter)—be
had nothing to complain, but undoubtedly it would have
been• much more satisfactory to the country at large had
the Right Hon. Gentleman condescended to reply more
fully. Upon the points to which his question referred he
had thought he was justified, as a Member of Parliament,
and in the discharge of his duty, in seeking for informa-
tion. Having obtained that information substantially, he
should not divide the House on his motion.—(Loud cries
of " divide.")—No, he would not divide, but other Hen.
Gentlemen who desired to do so, might. Before he sat
do*n, he must take the liberty of observing,' that the
House had little reason to congratulate itself upon the mode
in which one of its Members, who had so risen in his place
forthe purpose of propounding a question; had been treated'
-..-treated, therefore, in the' performance •of his own duty.
Tl 4 Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Canning) ought to recol-
lect that for 5 years he had served with him, and voted with
him, on the other side of the House—(a laugh)—that, for
five years, that Right Hon. Gentleman had never met with
an uncourteous expression from him—(laughter)—that he
(Mr. Dawson) had never refused to that Right Hon. Gen-
tleman the tribute of admiration eo justly due to his ex.=
traordinary talents. All this , the Right
.Hon. Gentleman
should have recollected, before he adopted the sort of man-
ner he had that evening assumed in answering his ques-
tion.—(A laugh).—ln introducing the present motion,
he (Mr. Dawson) had carefully abstained from all allu-
'oes to him, except to state his opinion of the manner
in which the Right Hon Gentleman had attained to his
present distinguished station. He must take leave to
say-, that had he thought proper to go into all the details
which had been elsewhere alluded to, he might have recol-
lected
some passages in the past life of the Right Hon.
Gentleman, which would create and justify, in his own
mind, some suspicions of that Right Hon. Gentleman, as
a political character—some suspicions :touching the man-
ner in which he had got his present office.—(Cries of
" Order.")—But he (Mr. Dawson) had done no such .
thing ; he had carefully abstained from every such allu-
sion. After what had passed, however,-lie must observe,
that if that Right Honourable Gentleman looked back upon
his.experiences in past days, his reflections on what had
taken place in those days could be of no gratifying descrip-
tion.—(Murmurs.)---The Right Hon. Gentleman had
thought proper to say, that his (Mr. Dawson's) motion
had been received with disgust by the House. Now, the
proposition had not been received with disgust by the
House. But if it had been received by the Right Hon.
Gentleman himself with disdain, he (Mr. Dawson) thought
hislown character in that House justified him in repelling
this insinuation, in the same feeling with which MIN been
made.—(Here the vehemence of the Hon. Gentleman's
action knocked some papers off the table, which excited a
degree of merriment in the House, that prevented us from
catching his concluding sentence.)
Sir G. WARRENDER expressed his surprise at such a /
discussion having arisen out of a question, and a reply,
which the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Dawson) seemed, how-
ever, to think of so stinging a character.—(Laughter.)—
At first, he had expected that there would be a degree of
neutrality, as between the contending parties, in respect of
the; Roman CathOlic Question : and he was the more sorry
that that neutrality had not been observed, because he
could feelingly declare, that the absence of it had very
nearly lost him his election.—(Laughter.)—On the pre-
sent occasion, lie must say, that as fair and honest a
factious course had been pursued by the Gentlemen op-
posed to the Government, as it hail ever been his fortune
to witness.—(Much laughter.).—The Right lion. Gentle-
man, late the Home Secretary.-for• whom- he (Sir -G.
Warrender) had the highest respect—in the first place,
had deprecated the going into a discussion, which, would
prevent the House from fully entering into the motion of •
.the,Hon. and Gallant General (Gascoyne), and then went
on,,te his (Sir George's) great surprise,, into almost every
irrelevant topic which could be suggested—(A laugh, and
cries of " Order")—he meant, for example, such topics
as Parliamentary Reform—a subject that, for his own part,
he really thought bad not been mentioned in that House for •
these eight years past----(A laugh. )—Seriously speaking. be
must thank the Gentlemen who had taken so active a part
in fomenting this discussion, because it enabled him to per-
ceive whit was the course of opposition which they were
attempting to pursue, in regard to the Right Hon. Gentle-
man (Mr. Canning.)—To that Right Hon. Gentleman, he,
for one, should tender—a most inefficient, it might be, hut
certainly a most cordial and zealous support.—(Cheers.)—
Ile was afraid that he had been but an idle member of Par-
liament ; but he had had experience enough, as a member,
to appreciate the very unfair sort of attempt which was
making, to surround the position of that Right Hon. Gen-
tleman with all sorts of difficulties, by agitating the Ca-
tholic question.—(Cheers.)—To that Right Hon. Gentle-
man awl the Government connected with him—a Govern.
ment which the Hon. Member for Kent imagined had lost
the confidence of the country—be should give his utmost,
and his most zealous aid.

The question on Mr. Dawson's motion was then put,
and negatived, the'‘ noes" being extremely numerous and
loud.

th

ii

General GASCOYNE then observed, that if he were
now to bring forward his motion, the House might divide
upon it ; and he therefore thought it would be advisable
not to carry it further at present. He appealed to his
Right Honourable Colleague (Mr. Huskisson) to say,
whether or no the question should not be postponed for
the present.
Mr. HUSKISSON was not prepared to give a decided
answer to his Honourable and Gallant Friend, as to whe-
ther his motion should be pressed at present, or deferred to
a future opportunity. The judgment of his Honourable
and Gallant Friend must decide the question. This much
however, he would offer his Honourable and Gallant Friend
by way of advice. If he considered the present occasion a
fitting opportunity for pressing the question to' a division,
there was no reason why he should not do so. If he
should be of a different opinion, he ought then to withhold
his motion until-a proper time arrived for bringing it be-
fore the House. Perhaps his • Honourable and Gallant
Friend would postpone his motion until so-morrow.
Mr. HEATHCOTE hoped that a further time would
be allowed before the discussion of this most importanl
question would again be urged. One thing was certain,
namely, that while the question relative to the formation
of his Majesty's Government was open to the observatiiina
of Hon. Members, neither this question, nor any other un-
connected with the one at issue, would- have the least
chance of being fairly and dispassionately handled. Sup-
pose the question were fixed for to-morrew, might not the
Alember for Derry again come down, and in the midst of
the discussion bring forward some motion similar to that
with which he had favoured the House to-night?--,.(Hear,
hear.)—There never was a time when the spirit of party
was so high as at present ; and he might truly add, that
there never was a question brought before the House
which required more temperance and less of party feeling
than that which the Lion. and Gallant General had this
night proposed to bring forward. The Honourable
Gentleman concluded by moving that this question •be now
adjourned.
SCOYNE.said, that in obedience with the
of the House he would at once postpone the
genTGerleineleirfreamelltiGiliogeA, we believe, was not seconded.
motion until to-morrow.
Mr. HUSKISSON—Or Monday.
A conversation then took place between Mr. Hostage:
sox, General GASCOYNE, and other Hon. Gentlemen in-
terested, as to whether to-morrow or Monday would be the
most convenient day for the further discussion of the (P,e*"..
tion brought forward by the Hon. and Gallant Member for
Liverpool ; and, after a short consultation,' it was decided
that the motion should be brouglit forward.gain on Mina- -:
day, Mr. Peet having signified his intention to withdraw
his motion for the further consideration of the Report on, •
the criminid Laws' Consolidation Bills,
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