The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-01 00:00:00

of the income-tax, he did so upon three
distinct grounds. The first was the impos-
sibility of any reduction in the army—the second
the necessity for an increase in the navy—and the third
the necessity for making great financial experiments. It
was upon' these distinct grounds that the Right Hon.
Baronet brought forward the continuance of the income-
tax ; and he believed that, at the time, the explanation
gave general satisfaction. But the Hon. Member must
not forget that it was a matter of importance that the
country should be protected by good and seaworthy ves-
sels, whose capabilities could not be ascertained without
some practical experience. To acquire this experience,
it was necessary that an experimental squadron should
be established, and this conld not be done without in-
curring great expense. It was only by experimental
squadrons they could test the capabilities of a ship or
a steamer, and the Honourable Member had heard
that the Government intended to resort to this expen-
sive source of gaining maritime information. But what
was the state of our commercial relations? Why, it had
been stated that in 1841 there had been a positive in-
crease of 35,000 men for commercial purposes. On the
coast of Africa an increase had been made in the naval
force, with the view to the protection of commerce, and
the suppression of the slave-trade. In China there had
been an increase of 100,000, and five vessels, for the pur-
pose of maintaining order in the merchant service, and
the protection of the British commerce in that quarter
of the globe. It was to be remembered that piracies in
those seas were not occasional and unexpected, or occur-
ring at distant intervals, but were systematically carried
on by the military chiefs upon the coast of Borneo and
the adjacent Islands, as a part of their state policy. The
Hon. Member, therefore, could hardly object to any ad-
ditional increase being made in our naval force, for the
advancement or protection of the commercial interests
of this country in that quarter of the globe.
The commerce of the country was daily extending, and
it must entail upon the public a corresponding extension
of the expenditure. The Hon. Member had further
asked whether in this time of profound peace the Go-
vernment
proposed to build line-of battle ships and in-
crease the dockyards, because other countries were use-
lessly incurring similar expenses ? Now, he (Mr. S.
Herbert) thought that nothing could be more impolitic
than to go on continually changing our own establish-
ments in accordance with the changes adopted by
other countries.—(Hear, hear.) However, he would say,
look to the different position of this country and of the
others referred to. Those countries had not the same
amount of colonies that we had, and they would con-
centrate all their naval force within their own ports.—
(Hear, hear.) But the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Hume)
said he agreed with the Gallant Officer opposite that
there was no occasion to build more ships at present,
but that they should wait until war came, when, if they
had need, they could build fifty ships in one year. The
Hon. Gentleman had also said that they could man 120
new ships in a year.
An lion. MEMBER-It has been done.

Mr. S. HERBERT—But they should remember that
an enemy would not put off hostilities until this country
was prepared with its full naval force.—(Hear, hoar.)
And the House should look to what was the state of facts
at the present moment. The Government could not at
present, upon an emergency, immediately obtain an
additional stock of timber, sufficient to build five ships in
one year.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir C. NAPIER—Oh, it would come in.—(Hear.)
Mr. S. HERBERT—But while we waited for the
timber to build, our coasts might be blockaded.—
(Cheers.) Formerly, when we were in an unprepared
state, it cost the country a vast deal to build vessels in
a hurry, which were of little or no use. We were
obliged to build ships upon the spurt of the moment.
In the first place, the Government was swindled by
the contractors to a great extent ; and beside that, the
ships when built were worth nothing, or next to nothing.
He thought, therefore, 'on all considerations, that it
would be impolitic to put off preparation to the last mo-
ment ; and, for his part, he would be sorry to see the
Government left to have recourse to the commercial
dock-yards upon an emergency.—(Hear.) At the same
time he must say that, although he saw other countries
at this moment going to a great, and as he thought
wasteful, expense for the enlargement of their dockyards,
he should be very sorry to see this country following the
example.—(Hear, hear.) Yet, looking to the actual
state of the navy—seeing that, although we had a large
number of ships, many of them were of great age.
Sir C. NAPIER—WeII, break them up.—(Hear, and
a laugh.)

S. HERBERT—Many of them must before long
come to be broken up. It was necessary to increase, at
Portsmouth and Plymouth, the means of repairing and
building ships of war, and to extend the means also at
Pembroke.—(Hear, hear.) He had had opportunities of
comparing the works going on at those ports with those
of another country, which had been referred to ; and he
could say that they would not cost one-third of the
expense.—(Hear.) Although the Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
Hume) seemed to forget the explanation given on the
subject of these estimates by his Right Hon. Friend the
First Lord of the Treasury, the country seemed not to
forget, bur to be satisfied with that explanation. The
increase of the expenditure was required for extended
operations to suppress the slave trade, and to afford in-
creased protection to our continually increasing

Mr. lIUME wished to state that he had not heard any
explanation from the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of
the Government, on the contrary, he had been in expec-
tation of the explanation up to the present moment.—
(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) The Right lion. Baronet
had made a statement when he brought forward the sub-
ject of the income-tax that we ought always to be pre-
pared for war. But this was the sort of excuse for keep-
ing up a war establishment to which he had always ob-
jected. But the preparations now proposed looked as if
we expected soon another Waterloo, or as if a hundred
hostile pennants were flying in the; Channel. With re-
spect to the suppression of the slave trade, the attempt
to effect that by means of a naval force upon the
coast of Africa had completely failed. In fact, accord-
ing to the opinion of the late Sir F. Buxton, the
employment of a naval force for that purpose had done
more harm than good—had actually aggravated the evil.
(Hear.) He (Mr. II.) had always endeavoured to show
the country the uselessness of this waste of money, and
to tell the public that if they wished to have a war
establishment, they must expect to pay for it.—(Hear.)
Lord INGESTRIE regretted that the statement
of his Honourable Friend the Secretary at War
had not been satisfactory to the Honourable Gen-
tleman (Mr. Hume), for to him it had been perfectly
satisfactory.—(Hear, hear.) He had not been present
when his Hon. Friend the Secretary to the Admiralty
brought forward the first vote, but he was sure that the
statement of his Hon. Friend would be looked
upon with great satisfaction by the whole of the
naval service.—(Hear.) lie believed that the navy was,
in every department, in a more efficient state than when
gentlemen opposite were in office. (Conservative
cheers.) The " trial experiments " instituted by the
present Admiralty. had been conducted with perfect
fairness, and promised to lead to important improve-
ments in the science of ship-building. He greatly re-
gretted that the schools of naval architecture, recom-
mended in 1806, had not been upheld—(" Hear, hear,"
from Mr. Hume)—and he thought that the gentlemen
who were engaged to superintend those schools had been
hardly dealt with. He hoped that justice would yet be
done to those gentlemen, amongst whom he would par-
ticularly. but not individually, mention Mr. Clewin, Mr.
Lloyd, Mr. Morgan, and others (whose names we did
not catch). At the same time, he complained of the
favour which had been shown to Captain Symonds,
whose system he regretted to designate as most rotten
and fallacious. Hitherto we had been groping in the dark,
in naval architecture ; and the consequence was that, in
the beginning of the last American war, we suffered
much in reputation, and would have suffered more, if it
had not been for the gallantry of our sailors.—(Hear.)
The fact, at this moment, was, that all our best ships
were built upon the model of those that had been taken
from the enemy.—(Hear.) He believed that the system
of building ships that had been adopted was most falla-
cious. lie considered that the surveyors of the navy
had acted upon the most erroneous prineiples, and that
the worst results had attended their exertions.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS objected to the vote. He be-
lieved that the grossest practices had taken place,
and he thought he should be able to prove that, if
they would only grant him a Commmittee.—(llear.)
He entirely objected to the vote for the increase of the
estimates of this year over the year 1835. The esti-
mates of that year were 4,200,0001., those of the present
year amounted to 6,900,000!. For keeping ten sail of
the line the expenditure was 200,000 L more than in 1841,
when there were 26 sail of the line at sea. These were
circumstances which required explanation. The Right
lion. Gentleman said that they were obliged to suppress
piracy ; surely piracy had been carried on formerly as
well as at present. He (Sir J.Graham) also ailuded to their
three establishments in China, where the expenditure
could not be vary large. The increase of the navy was
attended with an increase in the estimates of the ord-
nance. In 1835 the expenditure in the navy, army, and
ordnance departmentii wltaysill9iaomo,o3)ooathloenslsd tlhtkaen
ttoheknvootwe
of this year. e (Mr.
from m
erensmtietnnattewshiyn
these three establishments
they shouldsoe3em
Irequireber seufe hb earn Majesty's
increaseaiestysi thenGe v
ar 1835. It was more
comtphaarnedthwiethwhthoolese ooff
tthhee
ye
expenditure of the army and navy of the United States,
had to fear—their only difficulty
the only place they
since the peace, when sacneteneyefoarr
was in that point.
hTlhaerrgee
supplies were voted
was
these services. Take the years 1841 and
a andlarlgBe fleet42wh en
there was not only a war in China, in
the Mediterranean, and when there was an actual war
on the coast of Syria, when the fortress of Acre was
taken—in each of these years the expenditure was
340,0001. less
svthe
ranth in
en year
the
in
the
81
leBse, n t year. After alluding
inn tthhiesiymemarenoe increase
so
soon expenditure
afterin thetine service
peace,
the lion. Gentleman said he could not help calling it ex-
cessively extravagant.
Sir C. NAPIER observed that he did not think that
bt Gallhnern)a catne
dt
fairly
r oronjusthtley
oi
a°ra tse de
f(oSr hr eG. wasCo enko
aware that he (Sir C. Napier) imputed
to the present Board of Admiralty than eater mischief
last. The Gallant Admiral made use of oe
bsen
did to the
which were quite uncalled for ; he intimated thatry attliaenr s
were twenty naval officers in the oommand of steam-
boats who could support his statements. They
oughttohave sent for these officers and brought them before the
Admiralty for examination. He did not think it fair
for the Gallant Officer to say that ho (Sir C. Napier) was
damning everybody but himself. He however did not
say a single word about the ships which he (Sir Charles
Napier) said were in the docks. The Gallant Admiral
said that ho did not puil thcto vessels to pieces; but he
(Sir C. Napier) wanted to prevent them from being
pulled to pieces in future. If ono Admiralty allows it
now, why not another do so in future? When a Minis.
ter came into power, he generally selected those who
were in Parliament hunting fur place, and who may be
the greatest blockheads in the world, to. conduct the
gun 9100 navy, iustuita of those who were well versed

in those matters; but this was the nature of things.
—(Rear, hear.) He (Sir Charles Napier) himself
might be in office, but they could find many
better men than he was. Were they to think that gen-
tlemen of the House of Commons, who came there to
make a Reuse, to keep a House, and cheer the Ministers,
were the only persons to conduct naval matters ? He
only found fault with the construction of the 90-gun
ships and all the small ships, the 44-gun ships and the
50-gun ships, which were good for nothing ; and the
sloc•,ps of war the Gallant Admiral knew, as well as he
did, were good for nothing. He was not opposing those
small ships which were of such use on former occasions.
When they came to blockade coasts and keep ships
during winter, they found those small ships work well.
He could not allow the Gallant Admiral to persuade the
House that the Penelope, that porpoise, was a good
steamer, for it was well known by the Captain that there
was not an officer in her that had a dry jacket. The
Penelope, with steam, in a calm, would do very well,
otherwise she had only 4 feet 1 inches out of the
water, instead of six feet. There was not an officer that
did not knew it. She was the most splendid man-of-war
in the world when she had no coals in.—(Laughter.)
Well, then, if she was the finest vessel in the world, why
not make Penelopes of all the men-of-war?--(Laughter.)
That was another fact to which he would wish to call

the attention of the Gallant Admiral opposite. And
now he came to the case of the Terrible, and he would
tell the Gallant Admiral that he was deceived about that
vessel ; she never was intended to carry guns astern at
all, for she could not carry them.—(Hear, hear.) It
was true that many improvements had been made in her;
but the best thing the Admiralty could do in her regard
would be to correct in the vessels now in progress
of building the errors made in the Terrible.—
(Hear, hear.) One of her defects was that
her ports were only 4 feet 11 inches out of
the water, and the consequence was, her engines sunk
her much too low. Then, with regard to the Penelope,
of which he had been speaking—why, in fact, half the
power of the engines of that vessel was lost owing to her
defective construction.—(Hear, hear.) Another matter
he had to mention was one which was really provoking
to a degree to think of—(Hear, hear)—and there were a
great many Hon. and Gallant Members present, at both
sides of the House, whose concurrence in his views on
_ _

those points delighted him, and they had come forward
to bear him out in a manner that did him credit.—
(Hear.) The House had already heard, from the Mediter-
ranean, that there was a feeling in favour of the Queen.
Now he had not the reports with him in reference to this
ship ; but he had read it to the House before, and a most
amusing report it was—(A laugh)—for the answer to
every question in the report was—" Not tried."--(A
laugh.) One question was—" How did she ride at
anchor?" and the answer was—" Not tried." Of course

she had not, for she had been moored at Malta harbour
all the time.—(A laugh.) Then, there was the Coiling-
wood. In respect to that vessel, all he would say was,
that if her construction had not gone too far, he would
strongly recommend that she should be built upon the
plan of the Vanguard, which was admitted to be a well-
constructed ship.—(Hear, hear.) He understood that
such a mistake had been made, in regard to the Tremen-
dous, that she was now about to be cut down, without
the least compuuction.—(Laughter.) Under these cir-
cumstances, he felt bound to bring forward this subject
before the House, and not lose the opportunity of doing
so, however much he might regret the cause that com-
pelled him to do so.

- Sir G. COCKBURN hoped he had said nothing tha.
the Hon. and Gallant Officer could find fault with in
regard to himself personally. With regard to the state-
ments he (Sir G. Cockburn) had made, all he could say
was, that he had given his authorities for those state-
ments, and the Gallant Officer had contradicted them;
but he (Sir G. Cockburn) could not see what good could
result from asserting and contradicting in that way.
Mr. HUME did not intend to oppose the present pro-
position, though he did consider it a large one; but he
did hope that her Majesty's Government would not lose
sight of the claims of meritorious officers in the contem.
plated promotions.—(Hear, hear.) He also hoped that
some system of regulation would be adopted in regard
to those promotions, for it was the only country in
Europe that had not some such regulation. He had
received many letters from very deserving and merito-
rious officers who complained of being put aside, al-
though they wished to continue in the service, and
young m n put in their place.—(Hear, hear.) On these
grounds he did hope that something like a rule would
be adopted in making promotions, and that it would no
longer be said by the Government, as an excuse for un-
just promotions, that there were some younger members
of the aristocracy for whom they should provide.
Lord PALMERSTON said he had a few observations
to make upon this question. The navy was at all times
the most important branch of the service of this country,
but it never was more peculiarly so than it was at the
present period.—(Hear, hear.) Without adverting to
events which had happened, or which might happen at
no distant period, he did think that enough had
transpired and taken place between this coun-
try and foreign countries to convince the
British Government, that they should turn their most
serious attention to the state of their naval defence,
with a view to place it in the most efficient state possible.
—(Hear, hear.) When first the present Governmentcame
into power, they flattered themselves, that by making
certain concessions and acquiesconcies to the wishes of
certain foreign Powers, they would be able to sustain their
friendly relations with them, as far as regarded their na-
val and military establishment ; but he (Lord Palmerston)
conceived they had gone too far in making these conces-
sions, and what was the result ? According to what
had transpired within the last few months, in the decla-
rations of the King of the French and the Queen of
England, it appeared that this country had, within a
very short period, been on the verge of a serious rupture
with Prance. Then, they had heard enough of the
state of the United States of America to impress upon
the Government of this country, the fact that it would
be impossible to rate too highly the value and import-
ance of having their naval force in the most efficient
state possible.—(Hear, hear.) Considering also that Eng-
land was possessed of colonies whose value was of such
importance to them that their naval force could not be
in a state too efficient to defend them.—(Hear, hear.)
The first point, then, they had to consider was, as to the
number of ships they had, the number they had in an
effkient state, and their different qualifications.—
(Hear.) Ha had heard the Gallant Officer near him
speak upon this subject, and it evidently ap-
peared that he was much more capable of express-
ing an opinion upon it than he (Lord P.) was.
He thought the discussion of that evening had shown,
if it had been doubted before, that they were come to a
pass, at which it was expedient that the Government
should call in science to the aid of practice, with regard
to the construction of ships, because it was all very well
for the Right Hon. and Gallant Admiral to say, as he
had that night, that in the last war we had ships that
were regarded as of a clumsy and unsatisfactory de-
scription, but that with these ships our sailors had sailed
after and overtaken the enemy, and defeated a superior
force. But this was not a proof that our ships were
good. It only proved that our sailors were expert and
skilful, and that with inferior ships they had triumphed
over the enemy. The French ships that were taken,
when they came into our service, were admitted to be
very superior to our own ships by which they had been
overcome. This, therefore, only proved the superiority
of our sailors over those opposed to them. It was well
known to persons at all acquainted with the matter that
no problem in science or mathematics was more diffi-
cult to solve than that respecting the construction of a
ship destined for the purposes of a war. It was not very
easy for the most skilful mathematician to tell what
form a solid body should be in order to be best adapted
to go rapidly through a fluid. It was not very easy
beforehand to say what would be the floating line of
a ship not launched. It was not very easy to tell before-
hand what construction would give the greatest steadi-
ness to a ship. Mere practical men could not do this,
and the man of science, in giving an opinion upon these
points, must take into his consideration the principles of
stowage, and in this, of course, he would require the as-
sistance of the practical seaman. They had been told
that the Admiralty were trying the experiment of em-
ploying two or three men—one man to build three ships,
and another four, and so on. That was very
praiseworthy, as far as it went, and it un-
doubtedly showed a great desire to improve
and perfect the construction of ships of war.
But, with all deference to the Admiralty, he did not
held them altogether to be possessed of that scientific
Knowledge which was a necessary element of this sub-
ject, and, therefore, they ought to call in the aid of
scientific men, and also the experience of practical men.
—(hear, hear.) He thought this would involve a very
trifling expense, while it would be the means of approach.
ing to certainty with respect to the principle of con-
structing ships. Undoubtedly, the class of ships which
peculiarly required the attention of the Government was
the steam-ships. It was quite evident that the
construction of their ships required great improvement.
The Right Hon. Baronet had said that we were placed
on a satisfactory footing in this respect, as compared
with other countries ; that our horse-power of steam,
as compared with the horse-power of our nearest neigh-
bour, was in the ratio of three to two. He did not
think that was altogether a satisfactory statement, as
the Right Hon. Baronet had omitted to state what was
the proportion of the vessels, which was a material
point of consideration. Now there was another branch of
this subject which his llon.andCrallant Friend had intended
to bring under the consideration of the House, but whic
he had purposely abstained from touching on that night,
because the subject was too large to be treated inci-
dentally, and some more fitting occasion would present
itself for bringing it forward. He (Lord Palmerston)
meant that part of the motion which referred to the
defence of our dockyards and protection of our coasts.
That was a most important subject, and he would not
anticipate what his lion. and Gallant Friend might say
upon it, but he believed that there was no subject which
more urgently required ttniesee. Thereriousattenwtiaosn oofnetheotyloer-
vernment and of that I
pointre-
frain fcroonntrscatye o itg
ah
ftehwi s
ws
ou
rbdj es c t which h
upon,
ecould
lie
dn notnot
a at
al
rarogroenen
tlt)fhtlhleonfo.rGcee,nntolermd(idn
hvehorefqouunirde
afanuyltfurutihtehr
ethxe.
they
aht iaodn fromade lice
would, Governmentmvev
however,
offer. j iaryfoNthe wordsincrease
et
Nho
oei
wst augmentation
ofheAfrica
should
mosto
forof the
thoef sthtaetisolnasveontratdee.
the
suppressionforce a t
reason-
able augmentation of force for so great an object, but
cheerfully concur in any
he must own that there did appear to him a great and
manifest inconsistency between the proposal which the
Government now made, and the language which they
held on the subject of the slave trade. He might say
without exaggeration, that the present Government had
turned ont their predecessors on the question of the slave
trade. It was the division on the great sugar debate,
which had caused their accession to office, and on that
occasion they had said that to admit Brazilian sugar
would be impious, as it would only have the effect of en-
couraging the slave trade. What had happened ? The
very first thing they did after coming into power was to
ratify a treaty for ;he silpFes%iou of the slayo U 40114114