The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-09 00:00:00

agricultural community, must say a few words on this subject.
Since last year he had made inquiries among the most intelli-
gent of his constituents and found that there would be great
difficulty in obtaining the requisite information. He therefore
saw very great difficulty in procuring anything like accurate
information. He had communicated with very intelligent
persons among his own constituency, and they had all agreed
that it was next to impossible to give the information so as to
lead to the result which his Hon. Friend the Member for Man-
chester, evidently aimed at—be meant the quality of the pro-
duce of the country. It would be, he must acknowledge, a
very desirable thing if this could be done, but he believed that
perfect accuracy was next to impossible, and if the returns
were not accurate they would be worse than useless. He did
not wish to prevent these returns, but it was a well known
fact, that appearances were frequently deceptive, and last year
the crops bore every appearance of a large yield, but it
turned out that it was much lighter than was
generally expected, and he believed that if five stacks were
to be taken in rotation they would find that the grans pro-
duced would be at least one-eighth more this year than it
was last. He believed that it was a general impression that
persons speculatively engaged in the corn-trade could send
individuals throughout the country who from a mere inspec-
tien of the crops as they stood could arrive at some vague
notion of the quantity of the produce. But that was not suf-
ficient for the purpose of the motion of his lion. Friend the
Member for lianches•er, and he himself could not see in
what way they could come at any satisfactory conclusion It
he could render any assistance in arriving at that conclusion
he would most readily do so, but as the matter stood he did
not see the likelihood of any great utility from acceding to the
. motion.
Mr. WARBURTON was glad to see such a concurrence of
opinion in the importance of this question on both sides of the
House. But he believed that the information would not be so diffi-
cult to obtain as some Gentlemen imagined ; and if the Govern-
ment really felt that the information was desirable, he believed
that where there was a will there was a way. His Hon. Friend
the Member for Cockermouth (Mr. Aglionby) bad referred to
the Tithe Commission. He believed that they would find no
difficulty in getting the acreable surface under cultivation ;
and if they wished for the amount of produce they might apply
to the registrar of births, deaths, and marriages— (Great
laughter.) Well, all he meant to observe was, that there was
machinery already in existence; and if they objected to the
returns of the Tithe Commutation Act, they might employ
instead the officers engaged to make the ordnance survey.
He believed that a saving would be effected and that some-
thing like 7e0,000/. or 400,000/. would be saved from the
cost of the Poor-law Commissioners in the aggregate
of parishes. An objection had been taken to aay
accurate survey of the country, because Hon.
Gentlemen conceived that it might lead to a remodelling, and
an increase of the land-tax. Within the last four or five years
repeated attempts had been made to obtain this survey, and
Lord Sydenham especially had used every effort to olatain a
Committee with a view to that object, but he had been beaten,
and the matter remained still in abeyance. He was, however,
glad to see that there was an alteration in the views of Hon.
gentlemen opposite, and that they were wiser than they had
been. Put be was only fearful that there was not the disposi-
ticn, for he must repeat that where there was a will there was
a way.
Mr. DARBY conceived that this discussion could rot pos-
sibly lead to any useful end. It was true that the Tithe Com-
mission would give them the returns of all the acme under
cultivation, but those returns contained no data to meet the
requirements of the Honourable Member for Manchester,
for it was next to impossibility to get at the amount of agricul-
tural produce. They could not guage the barns, nor ascertain
the amount of stock in its several conditions. No lerger than
two years ago it was conceived that there was likely to be a
very large crop ; the straw, it was true, was a very large et op,
but when the grain came to be thrashed out of it, the yield
proved to be exceedingly light. What he would ask the Hon.
Gentleman then was, who was to furnish the information ?
If it were not accurate it would be mischievous, and he thought
that any attempt to make it accurate would prove entirely
futile.. For these reasons he should oppose the proposition.
Mr. BARING said that he was glad to see that such a sense
of the importance of this question was on both sides of the
House. He was aware that there was the utmost difficulty
in obtaining correct statistical information on agricultural
topics. Lord Sydenham had used every exertion to obtain it,
but he had failed. Yet to the extent to which the Hon.
'ember for Manchester desired the returns, be thought there
would be no difficulty. He feared some corn-law reason
for refusing the effort to obtain that information. What
might be a bugbear at first, was frequently found easy
of attainment afterwards, and if they began by making
these returns from year to year, they would be able to get.
them more and more regularly. He was not sure whether he
should have risen on that occasion, were it not. to refer to the
valuable statistical details presented by the Bowel of Trade, and
commonly called Mr. Porter's Statistics of Trade. He re-
gretted exceedingly that these returns were now two years
behind-hand, because the returns were of much service to the
country, and would be still more so if they were regularly
made from year to year.
Sir W. JOLLIFFE was convinced these statistics could not
be attained without considerable difficulty, and even then he
should be inclined to question their accuracy. The Ho.
nourable Member for Bridport admitted that the
surveys were fifty per cent. erroneous ; and if this
statement were true it would be necessary to have another sur-
vey of the whole country before they could promise these
statistics. Now if they bad to wait for that cheque, the Hon.
Member for Manchester would have some time to wait before
he could see the produce.

Dr. ROWRING admitted any calculation could only be of
an approximate character, but experience would bring them as
near the truth as possible; and thus they would form an
important element for the information of the country. Mr.
Porter furnished them with some valuable information upon
nearly all other topics connected with trade, and he could see
no reason why they should not have correct returns of the
produce of land.
Mr. GLADSTONE said it would be imagined from the
arguments indulged in by Hon. Members opposite that the
Government lacked the will or the zeal necessary for obtain-
ing this information, but so faras he was concerned, he must
altogether disclaim any such indifference. He thought the in-
formation was valuable to the public at large, but
it was especially valuable to the agricultural communi•y.
There was, however, great difficulty in the way of obtaining
it with any degree of accuracy, for the farmer had not the
same opportunities for making calculations as other trades and
professions. So far from there being a disinclination on the
part of the Government to adopt steps on this subject, he be-
lieved they had been examining every class of ottcers, who
were in any degree, prima facie, capable of undertaking
the inquiry, but none could yet be found, to
whom they could intrust so important and difficuit a
matter. One Hon. Member opposite recommended that the
returns ought to be collected by the clergymen of the various
parishes throughout the country, but, for his part, he thought
they were sufficiently occupied in other matters without
thrusting upon them other duties. Then, again, the Hon.
Member for Cockermouth had advised the House to entrust
the inquiry to the Tithe Commissioners, but, independently of
their being also sufficiently occupied they had not
pursued their operations in'o all the parishes of the country.
Up to the present moment many parishes had not come into
the views of the Commissioners, and with respect to those
parishes the functions of the Commissioners had ceased.—
( Hear, hear.) They came to this discussion under very un-
avourable circumstances. He would recommend that the
House should wait for full information, and he had no doubt
that it would be shown that there were great difficulties in
the way of obtaining that information. There would be ex-
pense certainly. But he did not think that the Ht use would
grudge the expense. There was nothing inquisitorial in the
inquiry, if they could, in the course of the sprirg, ascertain
the breadths of land employed in the course of the year upon
particular kinds of produce. The farmers had but little oppor-
tunity of stating what really affected them. He hoped, there-
fore, that when the House came to read the correspondence,
they wonld be disposed to give the statements on both sides
their fullest consideration.
Mr. HLTME thought that with all the time the Commis-
sioners had been engaged upon this inquiry they could have
given a full statement to the House. The Commissioners of
Tithe Inquiry had had plenty of time, and he would undertake
to make a ruder report at no greater cost than 3,00 F. When
the Reform Bill was in progress he (Mr. Hume) suggested the
employment of the parish schoolmaster to do the duty of the re-
gistration. If the Government would only take a lesson from
the practice of the East India Government they would see how
easily the proper returns would be made from local agents. In
every district in Bombay the whole of the produce, twice a-year,
was receided by an officer in each village. He hoped the time
was coming when we should have similar returns of the produce
of every acre in the kingdom. It appeared to him that they
were making difficulties which did not exist.—( Hear, hear. )
Colonel SIBTII0111) said that he would object as much to
a man coming to discover the produce of his land as he would
to one who came to learn what was the quantity of wine
his cellar contained.—(Laughter.) Nothing could be more
absurd.
Mr. VILLIERS thought that when the Gallant Member
made that observation, he forgot the distinction between the
produce of land and the contents of his cellar. He would tell
him the difference--one was for food for the public, and the
other for his own private use. He did not undertake to supply
them with wine.—( Laughter.) What they wanted to know
was, what was the amount of food in the country, which infor-
mation he did not think it difficult to obtain ; but the Govern-
ment did not wish it to be known what the difference we.; be-
tween the supply and the demand. The Hon. Member for
Lincoln stated that the tenants objected to the information,
through fear there would be an immediate rise in the rent.
They had given their sanction to persons being sent on the
continent, to obtain information whereon to found their ar-
rangements. He only mentioned that to show that they thought
it possible to know and to learn correctly what was the
amount of the produce when it suited their purposes.
Mr. DENISON did not think there was any unwillingness
on the part of the Government to seek for this information.
For one, he should be glad to see such returns produced, and
considered that it could be accomplished and might be ob-
tained by parties properly appointed. If the machinery were
geed, he was sure that the results would be beneficial. He
hoped that the Government would pay attention to the sugges-
tions which were made.
Mr. MILNER GIBSON said it had been compla:ned that
he had not proposed a plan. He would, however, refer to the
opinion of Mr. Saunders, who was stated by the Honourable
Member for Newark to be the most competent authority on the
subject. When the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary for
the Home Department asked him whetber it would be de-
sirable to have correct statistical information furnished by the
Government with regard to the quantity of land sown with
barley, wheat, and oats, in the United Kingdom, be said
that there could not be a more imperative duty on the Go-
vernment than to ascertain the quantity of food the
people were supplied with, and that he was surprised
that the Government had not got such returns long before.
The Hon. Gentleman concluded by recommending the House
to appoint a Committee to inquire into the best mode of ascer-
taining the produce of the land.
Sir ROBERT PEEL had not the slightest objection to the
production of the information. As to the poor-law guardians,
he doubted the policy of mixing up poor-law unions with poli-
tical objects. He doubted the policy of employing Poor-law Com-
missioners to furnish the information required, considering it
before
Commissioners.the m togetherti e
much better to have parties appointed for that purpose. He
con-
sidered that the best plan would be to have the correspondence
trusted w i t h
thet h e
Hon.. statements
Member of
fetrh
Manchester
aPnocohre-sl
taessr-
him the Government would be most a tl
would not press the subject t
to obtain the information. His ivision, as be could assure
to give all the assis-
tance(inHe information.a r , be a ) h
He
de il) na re
lre President of
the
lie
dis Right Hon. Friend the
thought tahof l
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to office—(Fleas,
ain his power
meat would be better able to form
a plan than ave
but if it was found necessary, there con not be —mmittee ;
the slightest
objection to that Committee.
Mr. RICARDO thought it would be better if •
his Hon.
Friend should wait till the papers had been produced.
Mr. M. GIBSON then withdrew the motion.
On the motion of Dr. BOWRING the following Members
were appointed in Committee on colonial accounts:—Dr.
Bowring, Mr. Hope, Mr. Spooner, Mr. Trotter, Mr. MtGeache'
.
Sir Thomas Hepburn, Mr. H. J. Baillie, Mr. Grogan, Mr.
Pringle, Mr Forster, Mr. Cobden, Mr. Bouverie, Mr. Aldam,
Mr. Hume, and Mr. P. M. Stewart.
The Customs Duties Bill was reported, the Bill ordered to
be engrossed, and read a third time to-morrow.
The- Public_ Museums Bill was reported, and ordered to be
read a third time to-morrow.
The Glass Excise Duties Bill was reported, and ordered to
be read a third time to-morrow.