The Sun.
London, England, 1845-06-26 00:00:00

goes to Peterafield, at which place there was a market, which the
r.mote, of tie atmospheric line endeavoured to put into compe-
titiun with that of Chichester, aria he adduced other matters, which
we have given in the evidence in chief, to show the difference between
the importance of the two lines. The tolls on the two roads also
proved the traffic on both lines of the road, and showed the great
suprrierity of the Guilford and Chichester line. But here he
would make an observation as to the weight which had been put on
the evidence of Sir W. Jolliffe, that there was no doubt but that if
a railway were to pass through that district it might do good to
somebody, and the Committee would therefore have to throw over-
board all the evidence on this particular point on both sides, espe-
cially as the coach traffic on the Peterafield line wasi at present
destroyed. Mr. Cockburn pursued the contrast between the evi-
dence for and against the traffic on the intermediate districts on both
lines, showing that the traffic on the South- Western line was far
superior to the other, and indeed between Godalming and Petersficd
there was no comparison. Godalming and Havant was common to
both, with the advantage of placing the former place six miles
nearer to London than it was on the atmospheric line. Chiches-
ter, which, next to Portsmouth, was the most important place on
the line, was made 19 miles nearer on the Guilford line than the
other to Hunger ford-bridge. Mr. Cockburn then went through
the evidence as to the distances which had been stated by Mr.
Locke and Mr. Horne, and which we gave at the time, showing
the prevaling distance of the several places on the
line. The population on the two lines was as five to
tour in favour of the Guilford line; and therofore, with respect
to both population aid distance, the point was quite in favour of
this line. There was an advantage, too, possessed by the South-
Western Company In the two stations which they possessed at
Vauxhall and flungerford.bridge—the former already in existence,
and the Bill for the latter having already passed the House of
Commons—while the other side only had the one at London-
bridge. In addition to this, there was the facility possessed by
the former Company in the ability to take goods out of the lighter and
place it upon the rails at Nine Elms, so that for timber and all other
heavy goods there would be an advantage which was not possessed
by the other line, and if the other line had the advantage of Dept-
ford-creek, there was, practical:y and in reality, no benefit to the
atmospheric company, as the goods could be conveyed to Nine
Elms in one tide, so that no extra expense would be incurred.
With regard to passengers, Mr. Horne stated, that before any rail-
way was established, all the coaches had been removed to the
west-end of the town, which showed that the tendency of the
traffic was to the west, and not the east ; so that, looking at the
stations, the advantage was evidently in favour of the South-
Western project. Further than this, it was a fact that the
Brighton Company were now about to apply more than 100,0001.
in making a branch from New Cross to Hungerford-bridge, in
order to avail themselves of the West.end terminus. The station
at London-bridge having the Brighton, the Dover, and the Croydon
li ties all running to it, Was exceedingly crowded, rand it would be
manifestly unwise to increase that inconvenience. The coolness
with which the South-Western project was looked upon by the
Portsmouth people he was quite ready to allow. It had been an
unpardonable offence in the South-Western Company to choose
Southampton instead of Portsmouth. There had always been ajea.
lousy between the two places, and he feared there always would be.
But with respect to the delay which had been alleged as taking place on
the line, it was proved that the South-Western line was worked with
as much rapidity and punctuality as my other line in the country.
Then, as to fares, they had put in tables of fares of the other great
lines, and showed that the charges on those lines were the tame as
those of the South-Western Company. The jealousy of feeling
should be left out of the question; and if he had shown that one

line was shorter than the other, better for the Intermediate
districts, and equally as good for Portsmouth itself, the others
were minor circumstances, and he did not think the Committee
would allow themselves to be prejudiced by any mere expresson of
popular feeling. Then there was the question of expense and
engineering difficulties. The gradients of the South- Western line
were far more favourable than on the other line. If, therefore, it
was necessary to make either line a locomotive line, the advantage
was clearly In favour of the former, and if it was thought necessary
to make the line an atmospheric line, the South- Western Company
were quite ready to make theirs an atmospheric line. In the
event, however, of the atmospheric principle being inapplicable to a
long line, then tire question of gradients became one well worthy of
serious considers ion. It was readily conceded that on a short line
the atmospheric principle might be very efficiently brought into
action as between Dublin and Dalkey. But on a long line the
whole of the evi..ence had gone to show that the difficulties
in working the principle were so great, and would in-
volve such an immense expense to overcome them, that to all
practice! purposes it would be totally inefficient. If, from the
moment that they had overcome the stir inertia. of the mass they
had to put into motion, there were no other causes to oppose than
these would be to its progress, he had every reason to beieve
that what was said by the other side would be true, but there were
such causes. The constantly opposing power of the increasing
density of the air in the tune after the first exhaustion would oiler
such an obstacle as would in proportien to the increase in the
;ength of the tube impede the velocity of the train as at last to
bring it to a stand-still. Mr. Hawkesley had by theory arrived at
a certain formula, which hau been confirmed by the practical
experiments of Mr. Stephenson. Mr. Alexander had put it on a
question of the credibility of witnesses. On the one side they had
Mr. Brunel, Mr. Hawkesley, Mr. Cubitt, and Mr. Samuda;
and on the other they had Mr. Locke, Mr. Bidder, Mr.
Hawkesley and Mr. Stephenson. Without additional experience,
who ecti d decide between them P With respect to Mr. Samuda's
evidence, it was not to be questioned but that Mr. Samuda was a
gentleman of great ingeuuity and scientific attainment, but in this
instance an interested and, therefore, a suspicious witness. With
respect to Me. Brunel, this was just the sort of thing to seise
upon a mind eke his, which was always ready to grasp at a diffi-
culty which was to be overcome, and he would be ready, there
was no doubt, to undertake anything simply for the difficulty of itself
if fur no oths r. Then es to Mr. Cubits, he was precisely the wit-
ness for ft tm ; and Mr. Cubitt had, with great prudence,
ueterred laying down his line between Epsom and Croydon until he
had laid down his line between London and Croydon, and he would
trot lay down that line till all these Bills, or as many of them as
should be fortunate enough to get through the House of Commons,
got into the House of Lords. Mr. Cubitt was a prudent man. It
was plainly impossible for idly man to say whether this principle
ever could be brought into action or not, and the question was
whether a line should be adopted which could be worked by the
atmospheric principle alone, or whether they should take a line
which, if that principle failed, could be worked as a locomotive line.
The South-Western line had, therefore, a scientific advantage.
They touched upon a better line of country, and reached the several
positions at shorter distances, and at less expense, both in the
formation and in the working. There was also great uncertainty
as to the passage of the trains, and an inflexibility about the sys-
tem which would prevent the atmospheric principle from supplying
the wants of the public, and they were involved in the inconsist-
ency of having the less powerful apparatus between London and
Epsom, where the traffic was the greatest, and especially during
the races in spring and autumn, and the more powerful apparatus
on that portion of the line where the traffic was least ; so that
they proposed to bring the whole of the tratHo of the Portsmouth
line on to the Epsom line, which was already overworked. Mr.
Cockburn then went through the estimates of expense given in
evidence, to show the amount in favour of the South.Weatern
line, and after throwing out a suggestion for a mutual formation of
the line between Chichester to Portsmouth, concluded his ob-
servations by stating that the formation of the atmospheric line
would offer no competition for the public advantage of Portsmouth,
but would entirely and unnecessarily injure the South-Western
Company. This being a better line In every respect, he trusted
the eommittee would give it a preference.
The Committee then adjourned till to-morrow.

GROUP LL.

LONDON AND BRIGHTON (IVA.NDSWORTE)
EXTENSION.

The Committee resumed at the usual hour, Lord John Manners
in the chair.
The case of the petitioners against the projected line, on the
ground of interference with private property, was gone into.
Mr. sergeant KIM:MAZY appeared for Mr. Rawlinson and several
other landowners, and contended that the projected line was not
necessary, and ought, at all events, to be postponed. It had been
laid down as a maxim by the Board of Trade, and its truth must
be universally admitted, that wherever the same Company and the
same capital would effect the same purpose it should be preferred.
Mr. Rollinson, the proprietor and occupant of valuable nursery
grouuds, and premises, at Tooting, consisting of dwelling-houses,
conservatories, ornamental ground, &c. The line would pass
within 108 feet of the entrance to these premises, and completely
block up the present convenient and open approach to them by
means of a high embankment which was to be raised for the pur-
pose of carrying the turnpike-road over the railway.
Mr. Driver, the surveyor, had valued the land which would be
necessary for the projected line at 26,0001., but the fact was it
would not purchase a tithe of it. The land had been estimated
according to its abstract value, not taking into account the incal.
culable damage which it would create by severence, and by destroy.
ing the beauty, aid in many instances the utility of private pro.
perty. The proposed embankment near Mr. Rolliuson's, would
rise to an height of eighteen feet, and extend 500 or 600
yards. Now it was manifest that this of itself passing
through ornamental grounds would be highly detrimental
and would vastly deteriorate the value of the property. The
Learned Counsel concluded by saying that the line was useless and
uncalled for. The present Croydon line afforded ample opportu.
nity for conveying property to the Brighton line. Such was the
opinion of the Board of Trade, and if at any future period the ex-
tension line became necessary there would be nothing to j.revent
its formation. At present the interests of a Company, which had
devoted a great deal of capital to the formation of a railway, and
the in crests of several private individuals, were involved.. Inves-
tigation and delay were absotutely necessary, and in accordance
with the recommendation of the Board of Trade, which was based
upon good sense and guided by strict impartiality, he called upon
the Committee to declare the preamble of the Bill not proven.
Mr. John Rawlinson,a gentleman residing at Tooting, said the
projected line would pass to the north of his premises. He
had a nursery there, two acres in extent, which was admirably
adapted for the growth of peaches and nectarines, both from soil
and climate, and upon which a great deal of money had been ex-
pended; in fact, he could not canry on his business without it.
He had lately purchased land there for 2501. an acre. There was
a most useful spring there which the line would destroy. His busi-
ness was almost as extensive as any nurseryman in the neighbour-
hood of London. The nobility constantly visited him. The line
would deteriorate his property to the value of two-thirds. The
railroad would pass directly tbrough the property, and there was
sonic of the property which cost at the rate of 1,0001. per acre.
. . .

Cross-examined by Mr. HILL—The grounds were visited by the
gentry of the West-end.
Mr. Groom, of Claphsm, corroborated the above testimony.
Mr. Henry Melyneux lives at Tooting. Is an assessor of the
property-tax. Was well acquainted with the condition of the
Tooting people. Most of its inhabitants were connected with trade
in the city. The other class of persons were mechanies. Did
not think a railway passing from Tooting to the west end of Lon-
don would be at all desirable. There were only two coaches from
Tooting to the west end of London—one in the morning and one
in the evening; and he very seldom saw them well ldden. Knew
Dr. Ford's property at Tooting, and thought the projected line, if
carried out, would be highly injurious to it.
Other evidence of a similar character was gevers as regards pri-
vateproperty.
Mr. Cubitt; csnsulting engineer to the Croydon Railway Corn.
pany stated, that in the begging of last year he recommended the
laying down of an additional line of rails along the Croydon line,
and arrangements were made with the Greenwich Railway Corn-
pally to bring a single line of rails to the London.bridge station.
The object was to take the Brighton traffic along the Croydon line.
The line was to be constructed according to the atmospheric
principle. That line was now in course of construction.
and would be attended with very considerable expenditure. The
present line would then carry what was termed " the long traffic."
Did not think it was desirable that the Brighton traffic should be
brought to Hungerford-bridge, even by a shorter line of railway
than the projected one.
Mr. HILL then rose to reply. The Rill was opposed by two bodies, 1,
the one a number of private gentleWithmen-landowncrs,
respect to the and
st, the other
were
the Croydon Railway Company. fir all
satisfied by the offers of the promoters except Mr. Rollinson and
Dr. Lind. He was anxious to treat with respect private property,
but the man should have a monument of gold erected to him who
should discos er any means whereby great public works like this
could be carried out without operating against the
inteoests and wishes of private individuals. Gentlemen
talked as if there were no such word as oomPenn-
lion in the English language. There never was any
railway passing so near a large town which less affected private
property than this, ard the promoters were willing to make all the
compensation in their po.ver to those landed proprietors whose land
would suffer by if. Wit respect to the opposition of the Croydon
Railway he disclaimed all wish and intention to damage the
interests of the shareholds. It Was objected that the
arch by which the proposed line would cross it was not large
enough, but his clients were quite willing to remove all objections
of that nature, by making the arch as large as they could wish It.
The Croydon Company themselves admitted some years ago that
the London-bridge station was not suitxient, for they agreed to
be shareholders with the Brighton and South• Eastern Coun-
ties Railway Company, in a new line of railway