The Sun.
London, England, 1827-02-20 00:00:00

CORN LAWS.

Mr. -HUM E presented a petition from the inhahi-
tantm of Glasgow, praying for a revision of the Corn Laws. The
petition Would have been signed by 30 or 40,000 persons. had not
the petitioners been anxious to approach the House. It stated,
that numbers of the petitioners, labouring fourteen hours.a-day,
were not able to earn more than five shillings a-week. They con-
sidered the Corn Laws the principal cause of the failure of their
trade, and of their consequent distress, and as they bad supported
Ministers in removing restriction from other branches of .trado,
they prayed that House to remove the monopoly in corn. He
entirely concurred in the sentiments of the petitioners, and he
trusted that the House would • ere long render the trade in
corn fi ee.
The petition was ordered to lie on the Table, and to be
printed.
Mr. HUME nave notice that be should to-morrow
move for a Return of the Number of Officers on Full and Half-
pay, distinguishing each class.
ADDITIONAL GRANT TO THE DUKE OF CLARENCE.
Lord PALMERSTON moved the Order of
the Day for receiving the Report of the Committee on the
King's Message, for granting an additional Annuity to the Duke of
Clarence.
On Sir A. GRANT bringing up the Report,

The Marquis of TAVISTOCK said, that he felt
he should not discharge the duty which he owed to his constituents,
or even consult the real interest of the Crown itself, if he did not
oppose the present motion. He would.not go so far •as to say,
that this grant of 9,000/. a year was likely to be much felt by
the country, even in its present state of distress; but he would
say, that considering the circumstances under which it was pro-
posed—considering the present state of the country, and the re-
ductions which had been , actually made in the salaries of many
public servants, who had nothing but their salaries .to support
them, he did think that, to say the least of it, it was one of the
most indecent and most ill-timed propositions he ever remember-
ed during. his Parliamentary, experience. He was perfectly
astonished, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who had really
a character to lose, could have lent himself to such a proposi-
tion. He returne4 his most cordial thanks to his Noble Friend
the. Member for Northamptonshire (Lord Althorp) for the up-
right and uncompromising spirit with which be bad dischar,ed
, _

The numbers wert...e. - • . -
,
- For the Amendment
Ageinstit. • - • • " - l7r .: -, ,-
..: i 7 ::';, ..... ~, i, • .. , . .......ini i'
Majority - -
On our re-admission to thegidiery, we found Mr.. NUMZ pe
piring se- . .. -11anatione *OM, the" Chinas/Mr—a tlieliebtril.
with respect t, the income ',of the thaw ofitttfeine t-ituma _
the noise in the House, we were unable to lasereither the QUeetioef7
or the Reply.
Mr. HUME then rose, and was ,proceeding to ad,
dress the House, when, he' wee-interrupted 'Sy cries of o.llpokir
and " Question" from some Members .: on the froor Of the Oppaalio
tion side of the House. The BM.. Member. then mat down-for '
the purpose, as we understood,..nf.allowing those who .wielesidlia
prevent any further discussion of tbe.Q.nestion, -anopportneitt: fa -
state their objections. There not Teeming however, to' booly '
disposition to take that course, 'and it being flatilitarithit
Mr. Hume was about to propose another ', - - - ilav
Honourable Gentleman was tbett allowed to prenied—gli:, '
by observing that he hoped. thole HonourahlralliaOstak,,
Antendmsalbt
were not endowed ,with patience' enough to teer milivie, , a .
to say, would take the . opportunity.' to: lore tli*lik:
I Although they might: feel, uneasy :e0 . IMO Altikliguv*toi:
I cupied by such discussions,' or fed-,. a .010.41 - or: the
public interests, he hoped they. ,would." not ,klietei Nailer- •
a conscientious intention =to 'do *hat he . nomideradi lifirdlep.
It was his wish to prevent whittle, eonsiiemplafile aPlairt:
waste of the public money,. And ~be would towAiite . • liflittey.,-.
of stating very briefly why ke..thought -that_l4lkt, .bot*
expend one shilling upon the,,porposes to: which,ll/4" voenrairtof,
.:z
called . upon to give their .assem,-. When there Z , 1 artiafkalang"
l' w
or four VP/ A ialt/fAt.naeet the' idAteqttil li -,
was that a.time,..he would ask, to propose -an atrailigant -
grant? Were they, he would ask, to keep the Members of the'
Royal Family wallowing in wealth, at a time when so many
thousands were dying for want of food? were they to take the
beds from under these miserable wretches; by warrants of distress -
for oppressive taxation, in order to make up an enormous Sum to
be wasted in heartless expence, wider the name of the necessary.
grandeur of Royalty? Ile had taken the trouble to lock over ,
the Civil List, and lie found that it amounted last year to the
enormous stun of one million and fifty-seven thousand pounds. Of
that unnecessary waste, X 64,0001. were paid for pensions, and no
less than 216,000/. to defray the expellees of the junior branchee
of the Royal Family, which would be increased to 255,0001. by
the addition of 9,000/. which they were now about to grant.. If
the Duke of Clarence had any family, or was placed in a condition
to require such sums, there might be an apology for the pre-
sent addition to his income, but he had already a yearly grant
of above 29,000/. His family received every year 2,5001_ from
the 41 per Cent. Fund, and all that was exclusive of his pro-
fessional income, which amounted to 1,0001. a-year. It was
not altogether the magnitude of the sum of 9,000/. to which he
objected—it was the insult which such a grant at the myna
time conveyed to the feelings- of every man in the country who
was suffering from distress. (Hear, hear.) It was the sure way
to make the Heir Apparent unpopular; and Ministers could not
have invented any course more likely to place him at variance
with public opinion. The Honourable Member, after ridiculing
the idea of such a sum as 9,00.9/. being required for these
charit..ble purposes, which the Chancellor of the Exchequer en-
larged upon, concluded by moving, as an Amendment, which
he declared no man could fulfil his duty without supporting--
" That, taking into consideration the distressed state of the Ship-
ping, the Manufacturing, and the Commercial Interesti, as well
as the deplorable condition of the' working classes, and the alarm-
ing deficiency of the Revenue, this House does not feel it ex-
' pedient to add to the present burthens of the People by 'Voting
any increase to the Income of his Royal Highness the Duke of
Clarence." " .

Upon the question being put, . .
Mr. M AUR IC E FITZGERALD..decIared that
he never recollected, in his -Parliamentary experience, having
heard any opposition persisted in with moreAumecessary-fertina-
city, or ushered to their notice with a more.exaggeratedtdisplay of
oratory.—(Hear.)=-For his part he approved of ,the;_gn.nt. from-
the. very moment the. Duke of Clarence -Came: to- hat.iitatatiost•
with regard to the Crown which he now maint.ained,.endlo
sidered it to be the grossest delusion to Oppose it with any refer!r,
ence to. its compromising the character of therriouerchy, • In 4
country. where there was an expenditureg sixty millions annually
one-half of which went to the payment of the public debt.--kio a.
country where there had been during war a Sioking Fund of
nearly-thirteen millions, and when there was in peace a Sinking
Fund of five million., tulalk of the sum of 9,0001. as some
Honourable Members did; was, he repeated, a gross delusion:,
(Hear.)—lf the question between the Government -of Englatni
and the United States—if the question between Monarchs and
Republicanism was to be determined in that House, he wookd
hive it argued fairly and openly,. and not by a side-winded. cos..'
struction upon a question, which never ought to have been. placed
before the House in any other light than as a fair provision, doe is
the altered condition of the person fur whom. it was intended,..T.
No man could accuse him of abject adulation to Princes, but agree,
ing. as he did generally, with the Gentlemen on that side of tits
House, and supporting by his vote their views of policy, he felt him-,
self bound to declare why-he differed front them then, and wbylos
gave the grant his most. cordial concurrence. It was set that kiwi
of question-which could be worthy of :the species of appositioit. it
received. He conceived -it to be a matter of mere abstract elght,
which ought to be conceded withouthesitation. • •
Mr. RIDLEY COLBORNE deplored the prows);opposition to the grant; and- leelared that, whatever - might 1111
been the opinion ofllon. Members at. first, such eel:rib-Med and
obstinate resistance would 'make the offer of the money comes sus.:
graciously from the House as its acceptance rant be rendered pais.
ful to the illustrious individual for whom it was- intended..
• ~ •
I.Jrd LEVISON GOWER did not think. it
necessary to trouble the House with any explanation of ma res.
soantti by
sefortltl:7:itaift of Kerry (Mr. i
M. Fitzgerald).
The thequestiotliadFbeenrsaoldf).airly and ably
st
The was then negatived without a division, mid a
Bill for the purpose of making a further Provision for his Royal
Highness the Duke of, Clarence was ordered to he brought in,
pnrsuant to the Resolution which had received the approbation of
the House.

ARMY ESTIMATE * ,
The House then resolved itself into a Committee of Supply, fee
the purpose of taking into consideration the Army Estimates,
Lord PALMERSTON said, the Estimates oftis
present year differed very little, either in the number of man or
the amount of the expenditure, from those of last year ; but all
there were ren:e variations in the detaile, it might lie neceesary for
him to explain them shortly to the House. The total "number of
men in the Estimate of last year was 86,764. ; 'The ambit of
the present year was 86,803, making an increase ,of `fit'
for the service of the present year. The charge for thilasrter'
was 6,602,150/. The charge fcr the present year was g1`,601;94,8L
—His Lordship, after enumerating • several -Minor ~' ilialiges
and charges, in a very low tone, obserVidi •thit there Vat's
skiing from a reduction in'the Levy-Inontlrtt!,#k.4!...l.bi!l t_ h. '!
the expense of tlie-Staiftrits increased- 15,1:N40L,_frput,„LITe Il!tture
of the armament sent" to Portugal ' In' tit! r:ef.•orop7 th. Er!
wcinhi be 6inid a-reditkintiof"s,ooo/., and Several of the Armee.
tied accounts, as he anticipated-last year, 'hitt'been, arranged,
[Tile .I`Zebl,3 1:0s, that it nets alirroar impossible to hear- what .le . eed
said, and
theconfusion was increase,: by the continued egress of -Mena-
hers,]'andsupper As far as we could understand the Noble Lord, he said,
that the third class of the Estimates inelnded the expellees of
6t
1 9 os.ffic te
i.
ris
the Civil Departments, or public offices connected with the
Army ; there amounted to 111,655/. Is. id. The fourth charge
was that of medicines, 'and surgical materials for the Land
Forces, tog-ether with certain Hospital contingencies, which, its
the whole, amounted to 13,910/. 14s. 6d• for England, an 4
3,867/. for Ireland. In both 17,777/. I4s. 6d. The expo",
of the Royal Military College were estimated at 13,229/. 3s. 7d.
NlNlraesul'o4.tBll:2l2no67:
7st:te6tdl.lastrhtliicehanlehi(e'ouivsnpetditozaill
diminutionthwe p
upon the Esti-
mates y
3 o3f ,7 General 2
mates of bust year of 863/. The whole pay of retired Officers
was 118,0001. and the Half-pay and Military Allowances to re-
duced and retired Officers was 770,044/. 12s. 6d. The charge
for in-pensioners of Chelsea i
which was a diminution upon the estimate of last year of 940
odd pounds. The Out Pensions of Chelsea Hospital would
amount, in the present year, to 1,312, 9171. 10s. 11d., which
was an increase of 27,000/. upon the estimate of the preceding
a
year. This arose from the disbanding*of certain troops, other-
wise there would have been a saving of 23,0001. bit the addi-
tion made to Chelsea: pensions was not the only
increase of the present estimates Over those of the last year.—
There was besides a small excess, arising from new class of pen-
a
pen-
sions. The total of the Estimate for the Military Asylum was
25,0461. 175., which allowed an increase over the estimate of last
year or 2,5001. This did not arise from any additional esta-
blishment Whatever' Is was
, or from any permanent charge
building,
found necessary this year to make an addition to theTti
for, he believed, the accommodation of washing
lthe h°tl3O'sf. course
expellee was, therefore, merely temporal or casual, and
a future esti-
cause of the
Could not be taken as any precedent of an item i

•
mate. The Account of 'Widows' Pensions amounted, to
163,8881. 16s. 6d. which was a diminution when compared with
that of 1826, of 61711. The Compassionate. List for the present
year amounted to 193,063/. 13s. 9d., which showed an increase
over that of the last year. The, Exchequer Fees remained the
same. The expences of the Veteran Battalion were 86,8031.
being an increase of 23,497/. and a diminution of 23,674/.
over the txpences of the year 1826. The balance was, conse-
quently, 1741. in favour of the present year.
The. CHAIRMAN then put the Question from

-thin Clair, when—
Colonel DAVIES said, that before the Commit-
- tae came to its decision upon the question submitted to it, he
would wish to straw the attention of its Members to the eztrava-
puce of theseale of the public expenditure, and to the compara-
tive excess of the present Estimates over those of preceding years.
The four. great branches of expenditure to which he would call
the attention of the House were—the Army, Navy, Ordnance,
and the Miscellaneous Service. The amount of these was
14,606,000/. in the year 1822. For the year ending the sth
January, 1527, the same four branches of service amounted to
19,344,000/, being an increase of 4,739,000/. He would only
ask those Gentlemen who were so loud in their professions
of public spirit, to have the goodness to do their duty when these
Estimate were voted. Would they but attend in their places,
. the country would be richer by nearly five millions per annum.
He objected strongly to many of the items in the present Esti-
mates. There was a charge of 60,000/, for levy money of 15,000
men. The usual number of rank and file in the army was 74,500.
Therefore 15,000 men were one-fifth of the whole army. Al-
though the duration of a soldier's life, from the casualties of
battle, foreign-service, and hard duty, was not equal to that of a
civilian, he could assert that it was a great deal more, upon an
average, than five years. Never was there so extravagant a de-
mand made upon this head of expenditure. In 1823 the num-
ber of recruits raised was only 11,000. He observed in the Es-
- tin:sates a charge bf 28,000/. .for raising only four companies.
Each recruit must therefore have cost the country no less than
20/. before he could be brought upon duty, or be reckoned fit for
service.. He believed that the newly-adopted system of recruiting
by whole companies tended much to destroy the efficiency of the
army,. and many whom be had consulted upon the subject con-
curred with him in the opinion.

Lord PALME'i TON said that the lion. Mem-
her was mistaken with oect to the number of recruiti. Of the
fifteen thousand men, tfiousand were to supply an additional
force, and the number intnded to answer the wear and casualties
of the service, was only eleren thousand. Taking deaths, desertions,
and discharges into consiceration, it would be by no means more
than would be probably wanted. With reference to the system
of recruiting, as far as his (Lord Palmerston's) experience went,
he could positively assert that the present system was eminently
adapted to insure the efficiency of the service. • In the first place,
by the present system of recruiting, there was no longer a multi-
bide of officers that used to be detached from their regiments,
wasting their time to the loss and disadvantage of the public.
Instead of nine hundred officers so detached by the old practice,
there were now not even one hundred. By the present system,
no regiment could detach more than one officer at a time, and no
officer so detached could be absent from his regiment more than
two years. The absent officer was not allowed to have under his
command a single man belonging to his own regiment, so that
the regiment was left efficient mil complete. The present system
was, therefore, evidently better than that which formerly existed.
With reference to the organization of the army, so far from the
present plan of recruiting having impaired that organization, or
in any respect diminished its efficiency, it had eminently tended
to raise the force in every point of service.

Colonel -DAVIES asked across the Table, what
was Itikvtrength` of battalions upon foreign service under the pre-
sent sityriftt of recruiting?
firIPAtMERSTON said, that the strength of
a battalion c,c the line on foreign service waft 600 men. Formerly,
regirneifteoiisisiod of ten companies or eight; all of which went
on service, leaving only the. skeleton of one company to recruit.
Each regiment-now consists of ten companies, six of which are sent
on service, thg remaining four eompanies are left at home to recruit.
These companiel discipline the young soldiers, and send them from
time to time Oaths battalions abroad. It was a literal fact that when
a compariscaluelbeen made between regiments consisting of the same
numberofmen,thessrwhich had only 6 companies abroad,and recruit.
ed under the present system, were found to be stronger and
more efficient than the regiments with ten companies upon the
former system of recruiting. The reason was evident : the four
companies at home were a better engine for recruiting and
keeping up the undisturbed organization and numbers of the
regiments than the skeleton companies which were formerly used
for raising men. The garrisons abroad are much more effec-
tive now than formerly. The new recruiting system had, how-
ever, another material object in view. When a whole regiment
went abroad, if officers became unable to continue in active ser-
vice, tliey were sent home on leave. This indulgence Wall, of
course, ;limited; and when their leave expired, if the state of
their health prevented their returning to their regiments, and
reassuming active duties, they were of necessity compelled to retire
on half-pay. Upon the present system, the officer came home,
nut merely, uponJeave of absence. If his health did oblige him
to quit active duty, he did not come home upon leave of ab-
sence, nor were his services - lost to the public. He joined his
depot, and: these performed that comparatively easy duty which
she state of his health permitted. Depots, which consisted of raw
;reruns, could not certainly he so available as entire regiments ;
but they did perform a share of duty, and of a description neces-
sary to the service.
CoL DAVIES and Lord PALMERSTON mutually explained.
Mr. HUME would leave it to the comprehension
of
,militars. men, how regiments of 600 men could be more effi-
cient than regiments of 800. From what he heard, a very dif-
ferent account could be given of the subject. Leaving such para-
doxes, he would ask, was it economical to have 50 Field Officers,
204 Captains, 408 Subalterns and Staff Officers, employed re-
cruiting? The Members of the Administration were in the habit
of talking of the preferene of one system over another. They
compared them iu their different points, and vaunted of the wipe,
riority of recent plans. The only point which they never took
into consideration was what appeared to him the most essential to
consider--namely, the exr,ence. Improvements, however obvious,
might be acquired at too great a cost. By the present practice,
the War Department left a Staff at home, with a few companies
to recruit, and, as far as he could learn, the expense of the system
was well deserving of attention, So far from it being economical,
it was most extravagar.t.
'ne CHAIRMAN put the question, «That
67,1:•9 men be provided for the Military Service in the present
year."
Mr. I-ITME said, that the observations of Colonel
De.viesoyera.nni upon the grant, they were in anticipation of the
subject beAre the 1101se. Re (Mr. H.), for one, objected in the
strongest Mariner to the great amount of the' army. He knew
that he was not solitary in entertaining these objections. As the
House had pledged. itself to support the expedition to Por-
tugal, to put matters to rights there—Ca laugh)—he did
not mean, at the present moment, to do more than to protest
against the ntimber.of our forces. He would, however, beg leave to
state to the House, that when Parliament had recently petitione4
he Crown to reduce the public establishments, the answer from
the f.rown was, that every possible economy should he observed.
Mr.- V. FIZTGERALD denied the assertion of
the gallant colonel opposite, that the Expenditure of the Army,
Navy, Ordnance, `red Miscellaneous Estimates, was between four
and five millions more in the last year than in the year 1822.
Instead of that, by the pap'fr which he held in his band, it
appeared the difference was only '1,300,000L
Mr. HOLE wished to know the arecise sums.
Mr. V. FITZGERALD stated that the amount of
the Army, Navy, Ordnance, and Miscellaneous Service, in 1822
was 16,660,000 E, and of the satue services in the last year
17,941,000/. ; being a difference of only 1,300,000/.
Mr. HOME observed, that he held in his hand a
paper, in which a ditli account was given of the matter. It
was a Parliamentary , signed J. C. Herries„eiving an ac-
count of the Revenue Expenditure of the year ending Jan. 1,
1827 ; by which, it appeared, that the Expenditure of the Army,
Navy, Ordnance, . and Miscellaneous Services, was 19,844,187/.
Mr. IiERRIES-. said, that the paper from which
the Irom.Qentiernen had just been reading was perfect'', correct,
but that the Hon. Gentleman was perfectly wtong in the infer-
ence which he,had drawn from it.
,colonel DAVIES observed, that there ought to
be „mug explanatory Appendix to the Papers to prevent the oc-
eurence of errors.
E had taken the trouble to add up the
whole of. the expenditure for the Army, Navy, Ordnance, and
Miscellaneous Services for the last ten years, and he found that the
amount was 182,000,000/. ;lacing on an average an mint-40 ex-
,ooo/. This year was above the average, and
pence of 18,225
4,000,0001. above the expenditure of the year 1823.
The Resolution vvaa then agreed to.
Lord PAL:VIER STON moved, that the sum of
3'155.W4. 12s. 6d. be granted to his Majesty for the pay of the
said Lasul Forces.
Mr.' HUME pointed out the enormous number of

Officers -employed, vie. for Great Britain, including reliefs,
26,194 ; for )tations abroad, excepting India, 38,015 ; and for
Ireland, 22,604. The number of troops in garrison was also
excessive.—The Resolution was then agreed to.
Lord PALMERSTON moved, that the sum of
186,3221. ss. 4d. be granted to his Majesty for the expencts of
the Staff, exclusive of India.
After a few words from Colonel Davies and Mr. Hume,
representing the great increase that had taken place in this branch
of our military expenditure, the Resolution was agreed to.
Lord PALMERSTON moved, that the sum. of
111,6551. '7l. Id. be granted to his Majesty for the expences of
the Public Departments.
Mr. HUME observed that on reading the items of
this branch of expenditure, and comparing them with tle:se GI
former years, it appeared to him that every thing was not gg•
lon right. Among other charges there was the sum of 20,01:0/
paid to individuals superannuated from the Noble Lord's own
Office. The House would de well to inquire in what manner
these retirements and superannuations took place. Was the head
of an office to turn out whom he pleased, and make room for
whom he pleased, without minding to what extent the public were
burdened by the operation ? He should he glad to hear from the
Noble Lord on what ground the Deputy Secretary at War had
retired since last year. What was the amount of his retiring pen-
sion ; and on what principle was it granted ?
Lord PALMERSTON said that when the Hon.
Gentleman compared the expence of this branch of the service
with its expence in former years, it would be well if he would
also look at its increased efficiency, and at the superior dispatch
and accuracy with which the business to which it related was per-
formed. The Noble Lord concluded by expressing his approba-
tion of the services of the late Deputy Secretary, which fully
entitled him to the retiring salary which was awarded to him by
the Lords of the Treasury.
Air. HUME thought, notwithstanding the expla-
nation just given by the Noble Lord, that the charge of Deputy
Secretary to the country was extravagant. He would he glad to
know if the retirement of the late Deputy Secretary was a volun-
tary resignation on his part, or whether it was in consequence of
a suggestion to him to resign his office ?

Lord PALMERTON said, that the resignation
of that Gentleman was certainly a spontaneous one on his part.
The Resolution was then agreed to.
Mr. HERRIES, in reply to a question from Mr.
Hume, respecting an increase in the charges of certain Military
Pensions and Allowances, which he denominaced a military dead-
weight, said, that the utmost vigPance was exercised in awarding
the allowances to which the Honourable Member referred ; certifi-
cates of service were carefully inspected, and every step was taken
to render the distribution as fair and impartial as possible.

Mr. HUME understood that twenty-two clerks
had been reduced in the establishment of the Noble Lord last year ;
he wished to know whether any new appointments of clerks had
taken place since that reduction

LOrd PALMERSTON : " Twenty-two clerks
were reduced in my establishment last September. If I under-
stand the question of the Hon. Member rightly, he wishes to
know if any new appointments have taken place since that reduc-
tion. If that be his question, I answer No--(hear, hear.")
The next Resolution was, " That a sum, not exceeding
17,7771. 14s. 6d., be voted for Medicines for the service of the
Army for thepresent year."—Agreed to.
Lord PALMERSTON then proposed a vote of 153,148/. 2s.
for Volunteer Corps.

Mr. HUME objected to this grant, as it did not appear what
were the services which required so large a sum.
Lord PALMERSTON said, that the only Per-
manent Officers were the Adjutants, permanent Serjeants, and
other officers who were kept upon the staff; the whole corps
were only entitled to payment on the eight days on which they
were called out on service. When it was considered, that all the
volunteers of the country-were included under this item, he did
not think that the House would consider it extravagant.
The Resolution was agreed to.
The next Resolutions were for Regiments in the East India
Company's Territories (exclusive of Recruiting Troops and Com-
panies), 759,963/. Os. 3d.
For Recruiting Troops and Companies for ditto, 32,159!. 9s. id.