The Sun.
London, England, 1845-03-08 00:00:00

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that
the duty on beet sugar was an excise duty, and that was the
reason why it was not mentioned in the resolutions. It was
his intention in the course of a few days to introduce a re-
solution, making a proportionate reduction on sugar the pro-
duce of beet.
The House then went into Committee.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then rose for
the purpose of introducing his sugar resolutions, and said that
with regard to the policy of enforcing a distinctive ditty on
different classes of sugar, he thought it right to avail himself of
the opportunity to explain to the House the reasons why he
deemed it advisable to adhere in substance to the course pro.
posed by her Majesty's Government, and he would ant suffer
himself to be drawn aside ft-em his task by anything that had
been said in the preliminary discussion. He would admit, at
once, that in attempting to impose a discriminating duty on
sugar according to its quality, he was undertaking a subject
which was attended with considerable difficulty—( Ilear)—
and he never concealed from himself, nor did he now,
that it was always a matter of difficulty to impose a
duty of that description, and it was particularly difficult where
the course to be pursued was a departure from the lordinary
practice. But it was admitted generally by those who were
disposed to take a different ♦iew of this question from his own,
that a distinctive duty on sugar was in itself a desirable object,
and that a duty proportionate to the quality of the sugar was
just and perfectly equitable in principle ; and it was one,
which if it could be practically introduced, would be fair to.
wards every interest. concerned in the decision of the question.
It was also generally admitted that there ought to be some
distinction between refined sugar introduced into this country
and that which might Ise introduced in a state short of refined ;
and he was anxious that the Committee should bear in mind
those admissions with regard to what should fall from him.
The question that would remain for the decision of the Com-
mittee was whether they would, in consideration of the diffi-
culties attending the introduction of two distinctive
duties, they would abandon a measure which, viewed
in the abstract, was just in principle and desirable
for every interest concerned?—( Hear. hear.) The Committee
should bear in mind the effect of the decision they would arrive
at. They were now for the first time practically entering
into a new era with regard to the sugar defies. They were for
the first time admitting into competition with the sugar, the
produce of their own colonies, the produce of certain classes of
sugar, the produce of foreign labour. Now they knew from
experience that there were different classes of foreign sugar,
some being of a finer quality in respect of classification than
the corresponding quality of sugar produced in their own colo-
nies.—( Hear, hear. ' It had been already observed that
the finer quality of sugar would necessarily come into
the markets of this country, while the lower descrip-
tions of raw and clayed sugar would not be introduced.
They had found it necessary to impose a distinctive duty upon
the sugar of their own colonies, arid therefore they could not do
otherwise with regard to the foreign produce. Besides, by
imposing a lower duty on the sugars consumed by the poorer
classes, they were conferring a great benefit upon those classes.
As they were now about to make a change in the system, they
ought not to abandon the chance of the improvement which he
proposed, and which was equitable in principle and just to all
classes. To equalise the duty on refined and clayed sugar
would cause the refined sugar to be introduced into this coun-
try under the low duty, and thence exported with a higher draw-
back ; and therefore he thought that proposition would not be
introduced into the present discussion. The distinction be-
tween refined and clayed augers had been hitherto clearly
marked; and whatever the difficulties they might have in in-
troducing a new system, it must be remembered that they had
hitherto been acting upon a system of distinctive duties. It
would, he had no doubt, be alleged that a similar principle to
what he proposed had been tried before, and had been
abandoned. But that was not at all conclusive. The system
which was abandoned in 1823 had worked well for twenty
years. There was no difficulty in the distinction between
muscovado and clayed sugars, whilst it was confined to the
West Iddies. But when it was attempted to apply a similar
rule to the East Indies, difficulties arose which led to a change
in the plan on which the duty was imposed. It was attempted,
on the part of the West Indies, to show that all sugar which
came from the West Indies was clayed, and ought to be excluded
from the lower duty, and therefore, to benefit the West
Indians, an additional duty of 10s. per cwt. was laid upon all
East India sugar; but let them see what was the practice of
other countries as to distinctive duties on sugar. They had
before the House a :comparison of several tariffs, which was
prepared by the industry of a gentleman employed by the
Government, and he wished the Gentlemen who thought the
system impracticable would look to that followed in other
countries which imported sugar. In most of these the
same distinctions were used as now possessed. In
Denmark, the duty on raw brown clayed sugars was lOs.
per cwt. On raw white clayed sugar it was Bs. 3d. per cwt.
On others, the duty was altogether prohibitory. In Sweden
the duty on refined was 4s. ; on white powdered, 2s. 6d. ; on
yellow brown, ls. He would not go into a detail of the tariffs
of France and the United States, which, next to this country,
were the greatest consumers of imported sugars. France im-
ported annually 85,000 tons, and the United States 65,000.
They also employed this system of distinction, which was
found to effect its object, and without complaint. In France
the distinction was classified into four types, and in the United
States he found in the tariff the same threefold division which
was contained in these resolutions. Now he did not think so
badly of the business of the House and of the country as that
we could not carry into effect a system which was found
practicable in other countries, in which, certainly, the
observance of the law was not more faithful on

the part of the public servants, and of those who
paid the duties, than in this country. He had, therefore, the
strongest reason to believe that a distinctive duty would be
found practicable, and it was admitted by all to be equitable.
The next point was, what was the opinion of those in this
country wh• arc acquainted with the subject ? Those to vrho.-n
the Government must look on questions of this kind—that is,
the Customs—were they favourable to the plan? They had the
report of the Chairman of the Customs to that effect.
The evidence of the officers who had been examined was—not
that there was no difficulty—but that the difficulties were net
in any degree insurmountable, and on the whole they thought
that the attempt ought to be made. Nor had he confine] his
inquiries to those who were connected with the Government,
and who might be disposed to concur in the views of the Go-
vernment. But he had pat himself in communication with
persons who were practically acquainted with the trade; some
said that the plan was impracticable; others thought there
were difficulties, bet that the plan was nevertheles both prac-
ticable and expedient. But he found from the admissions of
those who were most opposed to it, that their opinions were
not altogether to be relied on ; and, in fact, it was the prac-
tice of the trade, to make the same distinc-
tions in buying and selling. He had also acquired
new knowledge as to the practice in respect to
Java sugar, which was divided into twenty sorts, and these
were judged of from samples sent in numbered boxes to this
country. The buyer selected the quantity he wished for, and
the number being sent out to Java, the order was executed ac-
cordingly. 'What was practicable between buyer and seller,
could not be impracticable for the purpose of duty. He
had also the advantage of a meeting at Liverpool, which
was open to all connected with the trade, and a majo-
rity, though certainly a small one, decided in favour of the
plan. It was thought at that meeting that the chief difficulty
would be in this, that the officers of the Customs at the out-
ports might have different opinions as to the qualities from the
officers in London, and that this would lead to confusion. But
it was to be recollected that the outports where sugar was im-
ported were but few, and were not now at a great distance
from London in regard to time. London imported one-fifth
whole quantity, and Liverpool another fifth ; and there were,
besides, only four or five ports for the importation of sugar.
Therefore, whatever objections there might formerly have
been, did not exist now. The words which he had introduced
into the resolutions were—that the sugars should be " dis-
tinctly marked as white clayedor sugars equal to white clayed,"
in order to shut out any question as to colour; and in the Bill
which would be brought in to give effect to the resolutions,
care would be taken to prevent colour being made the test of
attaching the duty.—( Hear, hear.) In that he was supported
by the highest authorities--amongst others by Mr. Deacon Hume,
a man who had spent the whole of his life in connexion with
the subject. Relying on such authority, on that of several
Boards of Trade, and on that of those who preceded him in the
office which he held, he was convinced that it was for the in-
terest of the consumer, the grower, and the dealer, that the
distinctions which he introduced should be maintained.
Mr. HUME did not wish at that moment to enter into a
debate. But he would suggest that time should be given to
the growers and others to dispose of the stock which they had
in hand.

Mr. F. RARING was understood to say that the resolu-
tions might be taken now, and that the suggestion of his Hon.
Friend (Mr. Hume) might be introduced in the Bill.
Sir R. PEEL said that a clause might be added at the end,
according to the suggestion of the Hon. Member for Bever:ey.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought that

it would not be expedient to extend long the time before the
Bill should come into operation.
Mr. M. GIBSON said that the preamble of the resolutions
stated that the purpose of the duties was to raise a supply for
her Majesty ; whereas, it was avowed by the Government
that one of the objects was to give a bounty to the growers of
sugar in the West Indies. Now he thought the preamble
ought to state the whole of the objects.--(Hear.)
Mr. HUME apprehended that as a Committee of Ways and
Means could only vote supplies for her Majesty, they could not
adopt measures to raise money to put into the pockets of West
India proprietors.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said they
had power to vote the money, because it was for the purposes
of the Crown.

Mr. HUNIE protested that they had not.
Mr. WARD asked if it ought not to be distinctly stated
what pert of the rate went to the Crown, and what part went
into the pockets of the producer?
Mr. WILLIAMS thought the resolution answered the
question put by the Hon. Member, because it stated how much
was saved for the public service, and how much was raised for
the use of the West India proprietors.
Lord SANDON said all the money raised would, in fact, go
to the Crown.—( Laughter. ) _ .

Mr. M. Gig-SOS moved the insertion of the following
words, after the word "Majesty t"" For the purpose of giving
a bounty to the growers of sugar in the colonies." This, he
thought, would make the rate intelligible to the public.
Mr. GREENE ruled that the amendment could not be
received.

Mr. M. GIBSON said he certainly heard the Chairman,
the last time they were in a Committee on Ways and Means,
put the first resolution towards raising the supplies granted to
her Majesty, that •' in lieu of the duties of customs there be
levied the following duties on sugar." The resolution was car-
ried and afterwards withdrawn. They were now going to
move a resolution for the benefit of the colonists, and, there-
fore, he presumed it was the intention of the Government to
abandon the former resolution. It was, therefore, hard that
he could not move an amendment to the original resolution.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought the
Hon. Gentleman could not be serious, and if he were not, he
could only tell him that this was not the time to joke. They
were then in a Committee of Ways and Means for granting her
Majesty supplies, arid it did not matter in what terms they
framed their resolutions. _ _

Mr. BRIGHT protested against the Right Hon. Gentleman
assuming the amendment to be ajest. He did not think it was
a joke at all, for the Hon. Gentleman who had brought forward
this question was the representative of a large manufacturing
constituency, whose trade with Brazil would be totally de-
stroyed if the resolution were agreed to.—( Hear, hear.) He
must protest against this hop, skip, and a jumpsort of a manner
of voting away the public money for the service of the West
India planter; and instead of meeting the amendment by calling
it a joke, it would be much better for the Government to
grapple with it at once.
Sir ROBERT PEEL entreated the Hon. Member for
Maechester not to persist in interfering with the usual course
of business of the House.

Mr. M. GIBSON said, if the Chairman ruled that he was
not in order with his amendment, of course he could not per-
sist in it. It was said that his amendment was at variance
with the usual practice of the House. Now, it was admitted
that a Committee of Ways and Means would violate the spirit of
their rules if it interfered with the matters connected with
trade. The distinction between a Committee of the whole
House and a Committee of Ways and Means, he understood to
this:—in a Committee of Ways and Means they must confine
themselves to voting supplies to her Majesty's Go-
vernment ; in a Committee of the whole House, they
could pass resolutions regulating or relating to trade. He
therefore thought it would be more regular that they should
agree to the present resolution in a Committee of the whole
House, and not in a Committee of Ways and Means. It was
a hard case that he was not permitted to add those words, be.