The Sun.
London, England, 1845-06-05 00:00:00

testants, that made them so ? He would not foil ew the speech
of the Noble Earl who had just sat down, and ..esai nt out how
the Roman Catholics of Ireland had been treateet I by the Pro-
testants of England. They had heard it said thna the Roman
Catholic religion was patronised and upheld ie. Canada be-
cause it was a conquered country. 13ut It. li nd was also
conquered by Henry the Second, and it ha I . been treated
as a conquered province from that time to this. Could they,
then, be surprised, after knowing how they had 2 icon treated,
that they should look at our religion, beautiful a: d mild as it is,
through the glass of party, with suspicion and distrust. An-
other argument had been touched on by the NG 4)1 a Lord who
had just sat down, namely, their unchangea bi eness. Most
true, their principles were unchangeable. I ey were un-
changed. But in practice they were most du et ile, and they
would change yet more and more, as fello se. subjects and
fellow-Christians. He would appeal to what lac had himself
seen in the Grand Duchy of Baden. There were numbers col-
lected of Church of England members in the episcopal town of
the duchy, and what did the Roman Catholic Biel top do ? Did
he crush the Lutherans and persecute the Churl h of England
men? No. He sent for one of the Church :rectors of the
town, and said " There are a number of Luthe ans who have
no place in which to perform their religious tie se. There are a
number of Church of England members who I love no church to
meet in, I command you, therefore—(their .L erdships would
observe that it was not a request, but a comma; and)—that the
rector should open his church, and that in the , morning the
Roman Catholic form of worship should be pert armed a little
earlier. The Lutherans then to have it for the': r own peculiar
worship, and the church again to be open twice : a day, morning
and evening, for the members of the Church a: England." He
did not say that the same could be done in thiar ountry, but at
the same time he thought they might cultivate a closer friend-
ship with the Roman Catholics, by approxim: isa .ng to a similar
liberality. It had been said, and said me st truly, that the
Roman Catholic priesthood educated at Mayne:3g ills were so ig-
norant that they were not fit to be associat, ed. with clergymen
of other persuasions. They were now about tc try a great ex-
periment for their benefit, and he would ask eel iould they allow
things to remain in their present stagnant position? Was it
nothing that they could by such measures as th is advance the
progress of education and produce a better use derstanding be-
tween the two countries? He should only tr espass on the
attention of the House on one other point. Let
them suppose that in Ireland • thing s were re-
versed, that affairs were altered, and tl tat instead of
six and a half millions of Roman Catholics, and not quite a
million of the supporters of the Church of Eng land, and other
Protestants—not in all a million and a half? Supposing that
they had a Roman Catholic Government, and' that that Go-
vernment had in a moment of kindness and benevolence, prof-
fered such a measure, and that the six and a half million of
Roman Catholics had opposed it. What should they, the Pro-
testants, have said then ? Why they would: have denounced
them most properly as bigoted and intolerant. He (the
Bishop of Norwich) would have headed the rrry, and denouncd
the Roman Catholics in the strongest language. Why then
should Protestants denounce a Bill, which if they had been in
the place of the Roman Catholics they woreld b ave hailed as a
measure of the noblest Christianity. lie would trespass on
their Lordships' time no longer. It was his intention to vote
for this measure, because he considered it a religions question,
inasmuch as it was associated with justice and. benevolence and
love. He would vote for it, because he considered it a Christian
measure, inasmuch as it partook of, and put in practice that
noble and permanent feature of the Saviour's Gcrspel—" do unto
others as ye would that they should do unto you." He
should vote for it as an experiment in the right direction—
(Cheers)--as an experiment in favours of education,
and education under any form must elicit truth, and as truth
was elicited—and here he hoped Noble Lords of the Roman
Catholic faith would not think that he steak's harshly—he
spoke as a Protestant Bishop, and he said tle at as education
advanced truth was elicited ; and he trusted, -that in the very
same proportion as truth was elicited, the Roman Catholic
persuasion would be erased from the minds tend hearts of the
Irish people. It would then be found that this measure, which
was now so much denounced, would be in_ an aftertime, and
by a future generation, esteemed one of the moat wise, most
beneficial, and most useful passed in the 19th century.—
(Cheers.) He rejoiced to find that her, Majesty's Government
had brought this measure forward, and he only regretted that
when Noble Lords on the opposite :side of the House were pre-
pared to bring forth a measure :similar in character, they did
not receive that support from the Members of the present Go-
vernment which they so truly deserved. But he said he re-
joiced, and he did so sincerely, that past differences were for-
gotten, and that both parties came now forvrard in a body to
support the Government; and he would rids) give them his
cordial and hearty support in this measure of. justice to the Ro-
man Catholics of Ireland.—(Cheers.)
The Earl of MORNINGTON said Vett he was aware that
many Noble Lords of greater ability than, himself were anxious to
address the House ; but he could not allow the measure to pass
without making one or two obser cations upon the subject.
The reasons which had actuated sloe illustrious William Pitt in
the foundation of this inetitutiere, had been a desire to educate
the Irish priesthood at home, in order that they might escape
the demoralising influence which a residence in France would
occasion. lie would, ';eith the permission of their Lordships,
quote some evidence taken before that House at the period when
that Minister—tke greatest England had ever known—was
about to found the College. The Noble Lord then quoted evi-
dence taken..ccfore the Ilcuse relative to the power of the Pope
to absoloe subjects from the allegiance due to their sovereigns,
and the degree of civil authority which it was as-
sumed he had the right of exercising in this country.
The Act of ISSW had given emancipation, and though it had
not carried out to its legirimate extent the spirit of justice and
restitution, was that a reason why the Legislature should now
hesitate to complete it ? When it was said that oppor-
tunities for education should not be accorded the Roman Ca-
tholics, it was tacitly declaring that members of that cemmn-
nion were not fit to be entrusted wills political power ; for a
more extended and liberal education was but the earnest and
forerunner, if nut the essential principle of political influence.
If the system of teaching adopted at Maynooth be bad, by
giving the students the means of getting superior, they would
be the first to seek sounder education for themselves.—
( Ilear, hear.) The Catholic religion, when impressed
on ignorant minds, was pernicious, but when instilled on
educated and erudite minds it was sublime in principle
and beneficial in its effects, and that man of the Anglican
Church who could not entertain respect for tenets of the
Gallic—not the ultra-mentaine or jesuitical—Church, was not
liberal or wise. A mistake had been made by his Noble rela-
tive, and other Lords who had adopted the a :me course of
argument, in asserting that the Roman Catholic religion was
imbued with principles dangerous to the Constitution, and sub-
versive of civil liberty. Such might have been originally the
tendency of those tenets; but was it fair, was it true, to assert
that their consequences were still so fatal ?—( Hear, hear. )
That argument, however, had been plausibly supported by an
appeal to the nature of the concordats of the Pope. But what
influence or authority had in reality those concordats?
Lord CLANC A RTY—None at all.—(Hear, hear. )
The Earl of MORNINGTON—I thank the Noble Lord
for that reply; it is the very one I desired. It establishes my
position, and, as the lawyers say, puts the Noble Earl
out of the record.—(Loud laughter.) The Noble Lord,
in coat inuat ion, observed, that the Papal concordets
were founded on the principle of the peace of Europe,
as settled in the year 1649, and ratified susequently in 1815.
Rut the authority of the Pope was now virtually a nullity.
He could not translate Bishops, and his power over the minds
of the priests was less than the Archbishop of Canterbury pos-
sessed over the English Church, independent of the Crown.
The Pope had objected list year to the agitation for repeal
in Ireland. lie had expressed his approval of the Bequests
Act, but his opinion was disregarded, and even his authority
received a check. In Germany, however conflicting the reli-
gious tenets of the people, Lutheran, Calvinist, and Catholic
lived together in harmony and brotherly love; and that,
not because they compromised their principles, but
that they tolerated other and dissenting creeds. Let such a
creditable course of unity and charity be adopted between the
Roman and Anglican Churches in this kingdom, and let the
spirit which pervaded and dictated the present measure be car-
ried to its fullest extent, and the consequence would be the
suppres-ion of error, the promotion of religion, the happiness of
the people, and the glory of the United Kingdom.—( Hear. )
Lord COLCHESTER, feeling as he did the strongest ob-
jection to the Bill, and intending therefore to give it his de-
cided opposition, wished to offer a few remarks, if perchance
they might induce that House to pause before it sanctioned a
measure so fraught with evil. The feeling that dictated the
petitions agninst the Bill, emanating not only from Dissenters,
though he remembered the time when the opinions of Dissen-
ters were respected by the Noble Lords opposite, but from the
Milted Assembly of the Church of Scotland, from the great
body, both lay and clerical, of the Church of England, from the
Universities of Oxford and Cambridge--
Lord BRO ITO 1-1 AM—No, no. No petitions have been pre-
sented from either of those Universities.
Lord COLCHESTER believed that petitions had been laid
on the table of the other House from influential individuals, if
not from the Corporations of both Universities.
Lord BR OU G II A NI again dissented.
Lord COLCHES rER would not argue that question, but
the feeling that dictated such universal protests against the
measure, would not die ; whether the Bill was carried or not,
the spirit of the country would still remain as decided and un-
compromisingly against it. As to the contract originally
urged as entered into at the Union, he could discern no such
understanding whatever. Mr. Grattan, indeed, in his address
upon that occasion, had alluded to a compact for educating the
Irish people, but nothing was mentioned either directly or re-
motely of a permanent endowment of the College of Maynooth.
The principle then recognised was that an institution should be
endowed by the country and frum the funds of charitable
parties, but it comprehended no such system as State
endowment, whether temporary or permanent.—( Hear. )
It appeared to him, therefore, that the grant was only an an-
nual one, in aid of private contributions, and was not intended
to be permanent. If it were intended to be permanent, why
should the Government think it necessary to limit the grant
to twenty years ? Ile did not think that the College of May-
nonth had any especial or particular claims to the favour of
Parliament. He read extracts from the books taught in May-
nooth to show that the system of education, and the discipline
adopted in that college, were such as a Protestant Government
ought not to encourage, and much less ought to endow. He
did not think that the effect of the proposed grant would be
any more than to give an increased salary to the professors,
without at all improving the education of the pupils. With
every consideration which he had been able to give the subject,
he came to the conclusion that the measure would give as much
dissatisfaction in England as it would tend to encourage disaf-
fection in Ireland. He wished for the fullest toleration to the
Roman Catholic religion in Ireland. He was in favour of the
Bills for the institution of colleges in Ireland for the better
education of young men preparatory to their ecclesiastical in-
duction to the priesthood. Ho assured the House that tt was
with no hostility to the Roman Catholic portion of his fellow-
subjects be felt bound to oppose this Bill.
Lord MONTEAGLE said that he rejoiced in the expression
of opinion which this discussion had elicited. He rejoiced that
ail parties in both Houses had shown on the part of the United
Parliament that there was no occasion for the severance of the
empire, and that there was a sincere desire upon the part of
Whigs and Tories, English, Irish, and Scotch—(Cheers)—to
do every justice to the people of Ireland.—( Cheers.) Not-
withstanding what they had beard on that subject he should
state what he considered the peculiar importance of the Bill.
He thought that it was the most important measure that had
been presented to Parliament, he would almost say, since
the union—but he should say unquestionably since the
relief Bill. In its practical effect on the popula-
tion of Ireland he thought that it ought to
be considered more important. If their Lordships looked
back to the history of Ireland, disfigured as it was, confused
as it may be, by perpetual civil commotions, they would find
that all their contentions during latter years had resolved itself
into one great severance—not a severance of nations, but a se-
an
vteertance of religion, which unfortunately had placed the Pre-
s: thets on one aide of the supposed line, and the Catholics
other. When his Noble Friend had stated that the
the statement because he believed e
5o far
in
nays
Protestant Church was not
most church that e hetheaetult was the most tolerant
persecuting church, he cheered
the Chudrjeuhdgnef,Ethneglwanisdest and
enlightenedaistemd.en
thought that the governing party in Ireland He
with a degree of astute wickedness which
was intolerant,
the annals of the
world hanever surpassed. They
persecuted the pries
the Irish, and they persecuted their religion. The I
g atute of
i esl
of King William in Ireland was the commencement ofaegi
l re
slation of injustice, and a violation of faith. What did theydo-
with respect to education? In the height of their
baseness they made it criminal on the part of a Roman Catholic
to get education at home, and they made it criminal if they
went in quest of it abroad.—( Hear, hear.) They had been
active instruments in carrying out their own wicked legis-
lation. But he thought that those days were gone by, and he

wished that their Lordships would not imagine that he referred
to those matters for the purpose of making any exaggeration or
creating excitement. He used those arguments in favour of
the present Bill, and to show that the curse of the Legislature
was, that they created a separation between themselves and the
great majority of the people of Ireland—between themselves
and their religious instructors, and between themselves and
those who used the greatest influence amongst that people.
Anti that was almost the first time in which the Parliament of
the United Kingdom had touched that sore place with a view
of healing it. They were now disposed to deal with that
religion as one which was preferred by the body of
the people. He took the liberty of moving for
a return which was now on the table of the House
and he wished to call the attention of their Lordships to it, in
order to show the falsity of the idea that they were now called
upon to do something new, that they were now unprotestant-
, ising England, and that they were unchristianising the king-
' dom. Nothing could be more false ; and it was more flatter-
ing to those who made statements to that effect, to suppose that
they were ignorant of the facts, than that they were guilty of
flagrant misrepresentations. The return which he alluded to
showed the conduct of this country with respect to the religious
instruction of the colonies. The return showed that which
ought always to be the case—that in the discharge of their
colonial duties they considered that there were moral and re-
ligious responsibilities engaged, and how these duties had
been performed had been shown on the face of the returns.
They showed that 163,0001. were appropriated in one year to
the Church of England; 29,0001. for the Church of Scot-
land. Wesleyans, and the various denominations of Protes-
tant Dissenters, were allowed 46,0001., and they appropriated to
that very Church of Rome, for the actual instruction of the
people of the Church of Rome, for paying their priests and
their Bishops, the sum of 6,oool.—That2 was not the intro-
duction of the present day, it was not the act of his Noble
Friend, but it was the act of their predecessors in office. One
of the latest of these colonial establishments which had been
founded, and which be would cite to illustrate the pr:nciple
he had laid down. He alluded to the proceedings with respect
to New South Wales. In this colony the voluntary principle
was not laid down—a principle which he disliked as much as
any Noble Lord opposite, for he did not like to see religion
treated as an immaterial thing left to shift for itself. Ho
thought it was the duty of the State to protect religion as much
as any material interest. But he must tell their Lordships
what principles had been acted on. There all religions were
protected—all religions were endowed in proportion to their
number, and the result was in New South Wales most satis-
factory. He would ask any Member of the Right Reverend
bench whether there was any colonial establishment under the
dominion of the Crown in which the Church of Eng-
land had been more successful —in which its prin-
ciples had taken a deeper root—more prosperous in any
way whatever than it was there, under this system of endow-
ment ? The Right Rev. Prelate must be aware of what he
had stated regarding this colony from the reports which
reached their Missionary Society. But his object in referring
to this was not to show that Parliament had endowed error,
for if they went upon that principle they must disavow all past
legislation ow these subjects. Oh, but some might say these
were but colonies, then would their Lordships say to the people
of Ireland, we will do more for the remotest, the most insignifi-
cant colony that exists, than we . will do for you. We pay the
Roman Catholic priests in Australia—we pay them in Van
Dieman's Land, but to the priests in Ireland, for their educa-
tion we consider it would be sinful to contribute.—( Hear,
hear.) As to the argument of the increased sum proposed, it
was preposterous, for if the argument was worth a straw it
would go for the withdrawal of all grants.—(Hear, hear. )
The only alternative then was to make the grant avail-
able for the proposed intention.—( Hear, hear.)
Were they prepared to say to the people of Ireland—" we will
regard the religion of Roman Catholics wherever the flag of
England waves, we will consider the claims of Catholicism
wherever it is to be found, except en Irish soil, but when we
come there we will tell you that the book called Secundus
Secundi stands between us and the discharge of our duty.
( Hear, hear.) The Irish Roman Catholic peasant wished to
have their priests educated—the Roman Catholic Bishops
wished their pastors educated in a manner that would be
creditable to the Church, but what ;do you tell them ?
" You admire Thomas Aquinas—you have Maldonatus on
your shelves, and we cannot therefore assist you." My Lords,
that would not be satisfactory.—(Hear, hear.) It would be
as illogical in point of fact as unsatisfactory to the Irish
people.—( Hear.) But the case didnot rest there. 'They were
not to encourage error it was said—it was a national sin to do
so—the religious world were invited to join in this op-
position. Exeter-hall sent forth its petitions, and its
walls re-echoed its debates. He had shown then that
they supported Catholicism elsewhere—that they had sanc-
tioned instruction in Catholicism from the year 1795 in
Ireland, but they had gone farther. He held in his hand the
report of the affairs of the East India Company. He found, in
respect to Bengal, they supported there a Mahotnetan College
at Calcutta—that they supported another at Benares, and just
let them hear the reason. The Noble Lord then read an ex-
tract, the substance of which was as follows, from the report t—
" The Calcutta, or Mahomeden, College was founded at the
request of several distinguished Mahomedans. There have
been grants of money ; inspection and inquiry ; a course of
science was taught there, comprising natural philosophy, law,
astronomy, geology, oratory, rhetoric, &c. The salaries were
there fixed." In like manner, at Benares, there was a Sanscrit
e Collee, founded " for the preservation and cultivation of the
laws, literature, and religion of the Hindoos, and more parti-
cularly of the laws of the sacred city." Were they, after
this, disposed to go back to Ireland, and say, " We
have founded the sacred city of Benares—we have
provided for the instruction of the Mahometans, we
have provided for the Hindoos, but from those who
are near to us, and ought (and I believe are)
dear to us, we will withhold this grant, and argue against the
grant, on the ground that we will not condescend to increase
error." He was of opinion that the Christian religion, in auy
modification, or in any sense of the words, was not error. Let
them prove to him that that religion was error as compared
with that of Hindoos and 111alsomedan, and then, indeed,
they would be justified on this ground in withholding the grant
to the people of Ireland; hut whilst they patronised the re-
ligion of the Hindoos—whilst they supported the sacred city of
Benares, he did not see how they could refuse the people of
Ireland.--e Hear, hear.) One word more; they bad built a
Roman Catholie church at Surat, and Roman Catholic churches
in other parts of the Presidency of Bombay. The argument
was suggested to him by his Noble and Learned Friend on the
Woolsack (Lord Brougham) —who did not advert to it because
he wished as much as possible to impress the subject ; and
what had foreign countries done ? Did they treat the
religion of the people adversely because it differed front that of
the majority, and would this be used as an argument for 'treat-
ing the Roman Catholics of Ireland in the manner they had
dune? No such thing. Let them look to France. Look to
other countries where there were differences of religious
opinions, and see whether this would be a safe lesson to read to
the people of Ireland. We might tell them that foreign coun-
tries showed more respect and deference to the religion of
Protestants in foreign countries than England showed to the
people of Ireland. He was perfectly warranted in saying that
this question presented at least one peculiar characteristic.
Then no one had suggested any alternative, any proposal, or
remedy, in case the present grant were removed. The Noble
Earl ( Roden) did not say his motion was an alternative, but,
with the frankness and honesty which characterised him, said
that he did not propose the motion in any serious light, but
purely as an objection to the Bill. But what
were they to do? Were they to pass the Bill or leave
the law as it now stood—or were they to repeal that law?
Those who argued against the present state of things in May-
nooth could not vote fur the continuance of the present grant—
by their own account they could not permit the present state
of things to continue. A suggestion had been made in the
other House for the removal of the grant, but nobody was found
to support that proposal. Surely those on the other side who
would oppose any grant, could not be favourable to the
Irish Roman Catholic prieshood receiving a foreign education.
Would not the arguments of ultramontane doctrines and fo-
reign influence be stronger than at present, and Mr. Lord, a
high rut hority on these matters, said, referring to the College
of Rome, " What can we expect to get from Rome lint foreign
influences, bigotry, and superstition." This, upon the Noble
Earl's own showing, would appear more objectionable. In
the course of the Noble Earl's opening speech, in
moving the amendment, he referred to a great and
high name—clarum et venerabile nonan one which
must excite the sympathy and command the respect of the
people of England. He meant Mr. Wilberforce.—(hear,
hear.) From the manner in which his name hail been intro-
duced, those who were unacquanted with his character and
Parliamentary conduct might suppose that Mr. Wilberforce
was against the Roman Catholic religion, arid especially against
the grant to Maynooth. In the words which Mr. Wilbef force
used in 1808, he could see no such expression.—( Hear,
hear, hear.) The question at that time was whether
under the peculiar circumstances of the case the Percival
Government was or was not justified in continuing the in-
creased grant made by their predecessors in office ; but what
did, he say on that occasion ? He called attention to that
because the name and authority of Wilberforce were high, and
must have the greatest influence on the minds of persons op-
posed to the grant. The Noble Duke the Secretary for Ire-
land observed that he would not object to the grant on prin-
ciple ; he had never said he would object to
the grant on principle. The Noble Duke, referring to Par-
liamentary documents, stated distinctly that he objected to the
increase, because there was already a sufficient number of
priests for the population. Mr. Wilberforce, in place of
objecting to the Maynooth grant—instead of saying anything
condemnatory, said, " I am for toleration—we not only
tolerate but lend encouragement to the Roman Catholic re-
ligion." Mr. Wilberforce did net condemn that—if he
had condemned it he would have voted against the small vote
as against the large ; but he spoke in approval of it contrast-
ing the conduct of the people of England with the conduct
of other countries, in which they regarded toleration as the dis-
charge of a national duty, that they not only tolerated—that
was they had not only ceased to persecute and withdraw disa-
bilities, but they had done an act of grace and favour like that
of founding Maynooth. Another name had been used which had
great influence—he meant the name of Alexander Knox.
A more pious, respectable, and respected man could not be
named, and the best proof he could give of it was the fact that
he was the intimate friend of Bishop Jebb. Well, then, he
(Lord Monteagle) would now show their Lordships that the
Noble Lord opposite (Lord Roden) was mistaken when he
stated that Mr. Knox was opposed to the Maynooth grant.
The Earl of RODEN said his statement was, that Mr. Knox
was opposed to the proceedings in Maynooth, not to the grant
to it—quite the contrary.
Lord MONTEAGLE—WeII, then, he would show the
House that Mr. Knox was not only not opposed to the grant,
or felt unfavourably towards Maynooth, but that he had, in fact,
always been favourable to it. It appeared by an authority he
had now before him, that Mr. Knox was at one time made the
medium of communication between the Government and May-
nooth. He was examined before a Committee in 1826, after
he had been twenty years in the appointment he (Lord Mont-
eagle) had mentioned, and his evidence was to the effect that
he applied for an increase of the grant to Maynooth and got it;
therefore, it was quite clear that Mr. Knox could not have
taken a salary for twenty years in that situation if he did not
give his entire approval to Maynooth.—( Cries of
Hear, hear.") The Noble Lord opposite had made a
speech on this subject, which certainly had made a great impres-
sion on the House, particularly in reference to what he had
stated about the occurrence in Dingle ; but he (Lord Mont-
eagle) would say that all these statements should not be taken
for granted ; or that, at least, some allowance should be made
for the state of feelings of the different parties.--( Hear, hear. )
He (Lord Monteagle) had also heard something said about the
Catholic people not keeping their oaths, and he would have a
word or two to say about. that presently ; but in reference to
the Dingle case, the parties charged were tried by a mixed jury
of their own countrymen, and a verdict of guilty returned
against them. Now, he believed they had all heard of certain
proceedings that had taken place in the island of Ach:le. He
(Lord Monteagle) had heard a statement of the particulars
from an eye -witness,a barrister and a relative of his own, and he
(Lord Monteagle) could not but say that these proceedings
were such as would be sufficient to bear down all human
restraint before it.—( hear, hear.) The circumstances of the
occurrence were these—certain missionaries went to the island
Achilo, and a certain personage, of whom they all had heard
a great deal, namely, Dr. Alachale, upon hearing of this
arrival, proceeded to the island to offer up the solemn sacrifice
of the mass. All the Catholic people of the island bad
assembled round their clergy on the occasion, and their form
ofs
were worship
thus engaged ed in
offered up in the usual form of ecclesiastical
pomp and solemnity ; but while the Roman Catholic people
prayer,u pin
thethose
midst missionaries
o fthat
camelalarge
e cr o amongstwd
them, and, holding
what they called a consecrated wafer," asked the people was
that what they called their God ? In consequence of tilts there

was a rush forward made by the people, and he ( Lord Mont '
eagle) would say, that he knew not what people in any
country would not have done the same under the same circum-
stances.—( Hear, hear.) This act of those missionaries was
what some Noble Lords might call indiscreet ; but he ( Lord
Monteagle) would call it a most intolerant act. However,
upon that occasion the
.Roman Catholic priests came forward,
and rescued those missionaries, and protected and defended
them, and this through the means of those very men whose
miuisters had been so go grossly and wantonly insulted, the
public peace had been preserved. —(Hear, hear.) Under such
circumstances he would ask their Lordships would they be sur-
prised to hear that the public peace had been violated ; he
would say thatif the people had remained passive at the time of
that occasion they would have shown themselves not men, but
less than men to have done so.._( Hear, hear.) The Protestants
of Ireland, it had been said, had expressed themselves as hos-
tile to this measure ; some persons who had arrogated that title
had sent in )etitiona certainly, but he denied that
they were the Protestants of Ireland.—( Hear, hear.)
He was a Protestant, and as such he should say that more in-
jury than service was done that establishment by such facts as
that there were some parishes in Ireland with rich emoluments
but no parishioners ; while in others there were parishioners
but clerical ineflciency.—(Hear, hear.) Yet he would never
be the man tc consent to the endowment of the Catholic
Church out of the revenues of the Protestant Church._
(Cheers. ) He sad heard the Noble Duke say, that the Ro-
man Catholics mere there, and what was to be done with them?
He was glad to 'sear that admission, for there was a period in
Ireland—the yet 1758—when it was declared from the judi-
cial bench, that it was assumed that there was no such thing
in the country as a Roman Catholic.--( Hear, hear.) He be-
lieved the Cathodes of Ireland felt the sanctity of an oath as
mach as any Protestant, and it never could be said that they
had ever vielatee their oath of allegiance to the Crown.
Such being the case, why was it to be said that
those who vetted for this grant were those who assented to
violate the oath of allegiance ? He had ever found the Ca-
tholic priests delounce the violation of the law, and ho had
known them not only encounter risk, but even death, in sup•
port of the law—l Hear, hear)—and as an example of that, he
might mention the Rev. Mr. M'Queeny, who was shot in so
laudable a work--( Hear, hear.) In Clare the Catholic
priests had even teen refused access to their own chapel, in
consequence of their efforts to uphold the law. While he said
this he must admt that many of the priests were politically
excited, and there might have been foolish, and indiscreet
songs sung on St. Patrick's day at the College of
Maynooth, but while he said this he must at the same time ad-
mit that he should be sorry to hold himself responsible or any
man for the soup that had been sung at Trinity College. It
was said that there was great evidence of the opposition of this
country to the Bit in the petitions that had been presented.
He objected to those petitions being considered as any evidence
againstthe grant is Maynooth. Many of them were presented
by Dissenters, and what did their petitions amount to? Were
they against Maynooth? No, but against any Church en-
dowment at all. He rejected them, therefore, altogether as bear-
ing upon the qeesion. The politics of the last ten years
he believed had caused the great excitement on this subject.
He was sorry to say that Ireland had beers the battle- field of
party ; every thing Irish or Roman Catholic, both in Parlia-
ment and oat of doors, was held up in a way to cause excite-
ment, and those parties had conjured up a cry for which they
were now suffering. He did not recur to the past with any
feeling or desire to be reproachful. It had been said in the
other House of Parliament, that, in reference to this Bill, the
Government of the Noble Duke opposite was entitled to the
deepest gratitude of the people of Ireland; and, as an individual
member of that country, he sincerely tendered them his most
unqualified thanks.—( Hear, hear.) A wiser, and a better,
and a more conciliatory measure than the present could not
have been proposed, and were ho disposed to apply
the magnifsiag eye to all the circumstances of
the case, it would be impossible for him to find
anything to lead him to think that Government had been
actuated by any other motive thaw that of doing good in intro-
ducing this Bill—( Cheers.) They must have known, from
their past experience and from past occurrences, that the
measure would be objected to by many of their supporters,
while, on the other hand, they were doubtful whether it would
be acceptable to those whom it would most and immediately
affect. At thesame time the Government must have felt it to
be a just and right measure, and having introduced it he trusted
their Lordships would pass i . And he would here remark that
the majority upon this measure was a majority which would
fall not merely on the question of Maynooth, but also
upon the question of repeal. It would prove the most signal
defeat to those who had endeavoured to raise the cry that from
the Imperial Parliament no justice, no conciliation, and no
kindness to Ireland was to be expected.—( Hear, hear.) Why,
it was palpable that the contrary was the fact. Let them look
through the annals of past times, and they would find that the
Irish Parliament refused all inquiry into the question of tithes,
while the Imperial Parliament removed the abuse of tithes
altogether. The Irish Parliament adopted the most vexatious
and most odious system of taxation, reaching the pockets of
the humblest of the people, and this abominable system the
Imperial Parliament had destroyed.—(Hear, hear.) The
Irish Parliament passed the Penal Acts, but the
Imperial Parliament abolished them. He said, then,
the Imperial Parliament had a claim upon the consideration
and respect and affection of Ireland. Whatever might be told
to the people of Ireland, their feelings, their interests, ant he
could say their religion, were respected and regarded much
more, and much better by the Imperial Parliament than they
could be by a Parliament of their own. —(Cheers. )
The Bishop of ST. DAVID'S said it was not the peculiar
nature of this measure as connected with the interests of reli-
gion, nor was it the want of unanimity on this subject observ-
able on the bench of which he was an occupant, that made him
desirous to trespass upon their Lordships, but there was another
consideration he had in view in rising to address their Lord-
ships. After the differences of opinion which had been
exhibited on this matter he was extremely anxious not to give
a silent vote on this occasion. He respected the opposition out
of doors against this measure, and the turn it had taken was
such as absolutely prevented him giving a silent vote. He be-
lieved unfair means had been taken to abuse the public opinion
upon the subject, and, moreover, although the opposition
presented a very compact and united front, it was impos-
sible for their Lordships to conceal from themselves the
fact, that that front covered as great a difference and repugnance
of opinion as existed between those who supported and de-
fended the measure. —( Hear, hear.) And that observation
applied no less forcibly to those who contended for the volun-
tary principle, for some were in favour of religious voluntary
principle, while others advocated a political voluntary principle,
and the two were as wide and as far assunder as
the poles. It had been a matter of doubt with some, whether
any principle was involved in the Bill, and on the whole lie
was inclined to think that the Bill touched upon little that
could be called principle. He could perfectly well understand that
those who objected to the annual grant, could object still more
strongly to the increase, and he could just as easily understand
that those who assented to the annual grant might not be sa•
tisfied with the policy or the wisdom of the present measure,
but he really could not see how those parties could dissent
from the Bill on the ground of anything like principle. —( Hear. )
The principal object which he had in addressing their Lord-
ships was, that he might have an opportunity of explaining the
principles on which he supported the present measure; but he
could not do so until he had cleared the way by removing some
of those objections which had so powerfully influenced the
public mind, and until he had shown why those objections had
not affected his opinion in voting against the proposed grant.
He would briefly notice one objection with respect to the pre-
sent subject. It had been assumed that this
measure was essentially a sacrifice of principle to
expediency, and we had been assured it was right to do evil
that good might come. That principle was not right it was
evident ; but he would wish their Lordships to remember that
the dictum was totally inapplicable to the present case. The
cases to which it might be appropriately applied were those
only in which there was unmixed good and unmixed evil, or
unmixed truth and unmixed error. If the maxim were to be
applied to the present measure, it must be expressed in very
different terms. The question was not will you do
good in order that evil may come, but will you do good
with a slight admixture of evil, or will you refuse to convey
truth, if it be a truth, amalgamated with the smallest quan-
tity of err or. This objection would apply to all the arguments
that had been raised against the present measure, and all the
fallacies that had been brought forward to compete it would be
completely answered, if it was inquired had anything better
been proposed as a substitute than that which was now offered.
Ile would say, do all the good you can when you cannot do
all the good you wish. He would now proceed to another
point, which embraced many considerations within its
sphere, but he would confine his observations to only
one. The present measure bad been stigmatised
as a measure that sanctioned idolatry and superstition. They
had been told by the Noble Earl that idolatry and superstition
were very hard names and harsh terms, but they were not only
harsh terms but also very loose and indefinite terms, and they
conveyed a general idea of some kind of religious error, while,
at the same time, they suggested feelings of contempt and
hatred, but they performed the latter part of their office
more effectually than they did the other. He would widi
their Lordships for one moment to consider the state
of religion among the most savage, degraded, and
uncivilized races that were :known of either in ancient
or modern times. Think of the votaries of Jugger-
naut, and of the miserable idolatry of Iceland and the South
Seas, and then say what stronger terms could be applied to
them than the epithets of idolators. and superstition. —( Hear. )
Ile would ark if they had now for the first time to form the
coronation oath, would it not admit of a fair and reasonable
doubt that it was necessary or expedient to put w wets into the
mouth of ;the sovereign of this realm, to testify his ad-
herence to the epithets that would stigmatise many
of his subjects as idolators and superstitious. It
was doubtless, however, that these terms would be
objected to if they were taken in the fullest meaning. Those
words were not intended to be made the subject of a discussion,
such as had been heard from the Noble Duke on the cross-
benches. He would say that in public documents it would be
better to avoid language which must necessarily give birth to
angry and unpleasant feelings
on every roast- There was a
solemnity annually performed by the Church of England which i
was a thanksgiving for deliverance from great danger, and he
hoped that that solemnity would never be abolished, but ho
feared it was made use of for the purpose of re-creating
religious animosities, and it was in his opinion a matter
of congratulation from their Lordships that they were dis-
cussing the present measure on the 4th of June, and not on the
eve of the sth of November. As to the coronation oath,
which might contain the words superstitious and idolatrous, it
was absurd to suppose that the Sovereign of this realm could
ever be bound to set himself in opposition to the constitutional
interests and wishes of his people. He was only speaking as
to what superstition and idolatry were. There was, however,
another point. We were told that the present was a
measure in which idolatry and superstition would be
sanctioned. If there were no error in it, he would
freely admit there was no gainsaying it.--( Hear, hear. )
He would illustrate his view of the subject by reference to the
fact that in the Government of Saxony—a country where the
great mass of the people were Protestants-20,000 dollars had
been granted to relieve the Roman Catholics when they were
placed in difficulties. He could not see that in doing this the Ro-
man Catholic religion had been recognised. If that was so, as he
stated it, then he would ask did the present measure sanction the
Roman Catholic religion in any other way? It was a question
of calculation which persons of a great variety of opinions
might join in supporting, without its leading in any way to the
sanctioning of religious error, more than in the other case
which he had given. He believed that this grant would neither
strengthen or perpetuate the Roman Catholic religion.
—( Hear, hear.) There was one other matter to which he
would refer before proceeding to state, as succinctly as he could,
hisreasons for supporting the Bill. L was a point contamingy
the essence of the question. He did not see there was an-
sufficient ground for the amendment of the Noble Earl pro
posing a Select Committee to inquire into the character and
doctrines of the College of Maynooth. The inquiry proposed
by the Noble Earl either went too far, or did not go far
enough. For his part, he agreed with the Noble and Learned
Lord opposite, and with a Rieht Reverend Prelate
who had already spoken on the questicu, both of whom said
that such an inquiry was altogether unnecessary. But, admit-
ting that it was necessary, it was not ssfficient to take the Col-
lege of Maynooth—they must take a much wider range. They
must not oply ascertain the present condition of that
college at the present moment, but also what it was at
a former time, when the:professors of that establishment were
loyal and true in their attachment to Anti-Jacobin principles.
They should not only do this, but they should ascertain the
class-books and course of education in other Roman Catholic
colleges in England, Scotland, and Ireland ; and also learn the
kind of books employed in the coheges on the Conti-
nent—at Rome, Lisbon, Palermo, and other cities, where
Roman Catholic students would have to be educated, supra-

ing the College of Maynooth was abolished:- He fully admitted '
the existence of the passages which had been taken from the
class-books used at that institution, and which had been so often
ehployed against this measure—passages selected with the
most anxious and jealous scrutiny to make against the Roman
Catholics. And how stood the case ? The most flagrant injustice
had been inflicted on the Roman Catholic religion by the
epurse taken. It was represented that the doctrines taught
would have the effect of poisoning the source 'of domestic
morals, and inculcating persecuting, unconstitutional, and de-
grading doctrines. He bad read those books from whence
those conclusions were purported to be drawn, and he could
4e no difference in the general scope or tendency of what
they taught: and the books of the most eminent Christian
writers. As an evidence of the spirit of the Roman Catholic
books, about which so much noise had been made, he would
refer to a work of the highest authority in the Roman Catho-
qc Church, which so far from inculcating doctrines dangerous
to morality, gave the most correct and liberal interpretation
of the Confessional. It stated that it would be impossible and
improper to use the Confessional in any instance in which
the passions could be excited, or the purity of the parties con- '
fessing should be violated. The Right Rev. Prelate here
read an extract from the work, the name of which did not
transpire, to the foregoing effect, and also to the effect that
the doctrines of passive submission were taught. As a practical
illustration of the effect of the Roman Catholic religion, he
might further refer to Ireland, the poorer class of which, in
Morality, would bear comparison with the people of any other
country in the world. But he would not found any argument
on the difference of opinion between those Roman Catholic
writers and any Protestant moralist. What had
been the influence of such works, after all ? Did
any of them believe that a Roman Catholic was
less aware of the sanctity of an oath than a Pro-
testant? There was one other point which he wished
to refer to with reference to this subject—he meant the accusa-
tions that had been raised against the instruction adopted in the
College of Maynooth. It was said that the doctrines inculcated
were dangerous to political principles—that they adopted ultra-
montane doctrines with regard to the supremacy of the Pope.
He admitted that such principles were asserted in their works,
but he was prepared to ,say that they had not had evidence to
provethat such doctrines were taught, whether they were ultra-
montane, or whether they were the doctrines of the Gallican
church. He ventured to assert, that so far from having rea-
son to apprehend with fear the extension of the Papal power,
they had, in a political point of view, every reason to wish
that the Pope had far greater influence in Ireland than he
now had.—( Hear. hear.) The Pope was the ally of despotic
Governments. He was not the ally of Espartero but of
Don Carlos ; he had no sympathy with Louis Philippe, but
with the exiled family of the Bourbons—not with the reign-
ing family of this country, but with the exiled Pretender.
So far, thee, from there being any connexion between
the Pope and Irish agitation, there must always
be the greatest variance between them.—(Hear.) The
Pope was well aware that the agitation in Ireland proceeded
from persons who held precisely the same principles as those
entertained by the democratic party for whom the Pope en-
tertained the greatest dread, with respect to their influence and
his power at home. There could therefore be no alliance.
The doctrines taught in the College of Mavnooth would not de-
pend on the words or professions contained in their books, :but
on the spirit and disposition of the teachers. This opinion was
entertained by a great body of the Catholics in that country.
Whenever they accomplished such a state of things as would
render the Irish people happy and contented, be would venture
to say, that they would hear nothing more
about agitation among the Irish priests, for it
was the natural tendency of their religion to suc-
cumb to those in authority. He was borne out in that
testivony by history. If they did not adopt the Bill they would
commit a great national sin ; by adopting it they would go a
great way to efface the guilt of that oppressive Government
which they had for so many centuries inflicted on Ireland.—
( Hear, hear.) That ought to weigh upon the consciences of
this nation, and be called upon them to avert that retri-
bution and that guilt by adopting the measure before the House.
In the second place this was a measure of policy. It was part
of a large and liberal policy.—(Great cheering.) It was neces-
sary that this measure should be passed for the safety of the
kingdom. It was a system and course of policy absolutely
necessary for the welfare of the empire. This was the basis on
which the whole interest of the country rested, and if they at-
tempted to put it on any narrower basis, they would so far un-
dermine property as to render it perfectly unsafe. Their
Lordships were now simply invited to give to the Roman Ca-
tholic Clergy in Ireland in this respect in the same condition
as those who are engaged as Roman Catholic ministers in the
colonial dependencies. If they thought that they were not to
regard expediency, but principle, he perfectly agreed with them;
but that in no way affected the question at issue ; and he thought
that this was a matter of principle, and he was quite
satisfied tvith his own conduct in giving his adhe-
sion to the grant which they were that night
called on to make. In the third place, they were now called
upon to make good one of the promises they had made at the
union. At that time an engagement was made that in the
event of the union being effected that Ireland should enjoy the
same advantages as she possessed in the enjoyment of a do-
mestic legislation, and he believed that if that promise were not
kept it:would be at the risk of a disruption of the union and a
dimemberment of the empire. He had stated that this mea-
sure considered in itself, or as a part of the policy now pursued
with regard to Ireland, was a measure of conciliation. But
they were asked where were 'the signs of conciliation? Had
it really conciliated the Irish people? He admitted that it
might have very imperfectly effected that object, but what
were the reasons? It could not be expected that a
century of misrule could be immediately and in-
stantaneonsly remedied—(Hear)—and they were now
paying the penalty of their former errors. Even the opposition
now offered neutralised and prevented the beneficial results
of that measure. This was the effect of their own conduct,
and yet they were the very persons who used the argument
in this case, that Ireland evinced ne appearance of being coo-
ciliated.-( Cheers.) He would only say that the effect of this
opposition of their Lordships would be, if successful, most dan-
gerous to the peace of that country. One of the arguments
used by the opponents of this measure was, that the present
State allowance for the purpose of educating the Roman
Catholic priesthood would eventually lead to the giving
of an endowment to the Roman Catholic Church -
itself. He could foresee no such result. He was
glad to observe, too, that one of the Right Reverend
Prelates (the Bishop of Exeter) who had addressed the House
in opposition to the Bill, had made reference to Dr. Arnold,
for he trusted that that prelate would now study the works of
that divine, and in that study he would at once meet his (the
Bishop of St. David's) encouragement. Dr. Arnold had
made the following der eration :—" Good prelates and worse
Christians have talked so long about the beast and Antichrist,
that the question of charity, as regarded their duty to their
fellow-Christians, had been neglected as if by common
consent." But what need had they of such testimony, how-
ever high ? Had they not that of the present Chief Minister of
the French kingdom? Had they not that of the distinguished
Nobleman, who had just left the British shore, after effecting
a treaty which, he trusted, would preserve peace between
the two countries? And had they not the testimony of one,pf the
first authorities in Russia to the advantages arising., CO any-,
kingdom from the mitigation of religious rancour, and the al-
layment of all animosities between contending creeds? He Was
very sorry for so long occupying their Lordships, but he had
felt it to be his duty to state to the House the grounds upon
which he supported the Bill. —( Hearrhear. )
There were then loud cries of " Divide, divide," which,
however, gave way to
The Earl of CEIARLEVILI.E, who assured their Lord-
ships that he had great unwillingness to oppose any measure
which was calculated to give satisfaction to his Roman Catho-
lic countrymen. He lived amongst them, and he loved them
—( Hear, hear)--and it was painful to him to be compelled to
say anything which could wound their religious feelings. After
the observation of the Right,Rev. Prelate, for whom he enter-
tained every personal respect possible, he hoped that he would
not be offended with him (Lord Charleville) when he stated
that he listened to his speech with extreme regret. He would
wish to call the attention of their Lordships to the point
whether there was anew principle involved in the measure
proposed by her Majesty's Government, and as to this being
an endowment for the first time. The Act of 1793 was an
endowment of the College of Maynooth, and the trustees were
appointed for the purpose of establishing, endowing, and main-
taining the College of Maynooth. It was then intended to
remove some of the disabilities, pains, and penalties under
which the Roman Catholics labonred. ( Here the Noble Lord
made a long pause, and took a written paper from his pocket,
which he looked at—there were loud cries of " Hear," and
great laughter. The Noble Lord dropped the paper and re-
sumed, but again stopped. The same impatience
was manifested, upon which the Noble Lord
said he was suffering from great pain, and having
said so, referred to the paper again, and went on,
but with great . hesitation.) A question was raised
whether the class-books at Maynooth taught a different system
from that of Maldonatus and St. Thomas Aquinas. In the
canons sanctioned by the Pope, and published in 1839, it was
stated that ecclesiastics were not bound by the oath of allegi-
ance to their Prince, but that they might resist even Princes
when the rights and honours of their Church were at stake,
even for their own advantage. Kingly power was subject to,
and bound to obey the Church. This was written by Jesuits,
and he thought it would not be difficult to show that the Col-
lege of Maynooth was jesuitical. Whether his Noble Friend
opposite denied or admitted this fact, he should, at all events,
vote for inquiry. The Noble Baron (Lord Clifford) last night
asked of the Right Reverend Prelate if he had read
the report of the Commt:sioners of Education, and
the evidence of the Reverend Peter Kenny, a 'Jesuit.
He need not more particularly call the attention of their
Lordships to the letter of Dr. Kenny. ,But this he would say,
that that Rev. Gentleman was educated at the Jesuit College of
Palermo, where the form was gone through of asking certain
questions in reference to the religious feelings of the candidate
for admission' as well as the country of his nativity. When
Dr. Kenny left college he became Vice-President of the College
of Maynooth, on the recommendation of the Rev. Dr. Murray,
who gave him the highest, character as an accomplished
divine, which he (Lord Charleville) could not of course
say he did not deserve. Dr. Kenny left that college soon
after' for Cluges, and while there, it appeared by his own.
letters, that he had admitted at Maynooth no fewer than
200 of the pupils to the fraternity of the Sodality of the
Sacred heart of Jesus. Now, let him call attention to the
words of the Noble Duke near him, is April, 1829, when the
Emancipation Bill was introduced to their Lordships' House.
Upon that occasion, the Noble Duke gave it as his decided
opinion that monastic institutions should not be permitted to
increase in Ireland. He would now call their Lordships' atten-
tion to the 34th clause of the Roman Catholic Relief Bill, and
by that their Lordships would see whether or not the provisions
of that clause had not been carried out, in reference to monastic
institutions in Ireland. The Noble Earl then read the 34th
clause of the Emancipation Act, which enacted that any person
becoming a Jesuit was guilty of a misdemeanor, and subject
to banishment for life. Now, if they proved that persons
in Maynooth were admitted to take up that order, he did
not see how a Committee could be refused to them. He had
no reason to believe that the Roman Catholics of Ireland had
any interest in this question. They considered it as valueless.
He could not understand what good was to be derived from the
measure. If this Bill was to lead to ulterior measures, he
could easily conceive a strong desire on the part of the
Roman Catholics to have the Rill passed, and he thought the
House ought to know distinctly from Government, before they
sanctioned this Bill, if they intended to follow it
up with other measures of a more extensive character.
Ile was surprised that the Noble Duke should admit his igno-
rance of what was going forward in Ireland at the time he
spoke on the question the other night. He had himself re-
ceived newspapers on Friday morning last from Ireland, and it
was extraordinary that her Majesty's Government should be so
blind to what was being enacted in the Irish capital at that
period, as not to inquire into the result either on Saturday or
Sunday. For the particular information of the Government, he
would read an extract front two letters he had received on Mon-
day. lie referred to the levee recently held in the City of Dublin.
The Noble Lord here read the extract, which described the im-
posing appearance of the procession, and the proceedings that
subsequently took place in Conciliation-hall, with the address
of Mr. O'Connell, and the oath taken on the occasion. The
oath was a pledge binding all those who took it to make every
exertion to achieve legislative independence for Ireland by all
moral, loyal, and constitutional means.—( Hear, hear.) It was
a dangerous and deplorable state of things for a country to de-
pend for the preservation of its peace upon the exertions of
one man, who could thus, at any moment, call together such
hundreds of thousands of individuals. He thought the Go.
vernment might have taken other steps for the good of Ireland,
than the bringing in a measure of this kind, if they wished to
secure the peace and welfare of the people of Ireland.
Lord STANLEY said, whatever regret to or her Majesty's

Government might have felt, he could assure the NobleEy] -
who had just sat down that regret was sincere. He should
regret if they lost the support of the Noble Earl, or of other
Noble Lords who considered that the Government were un-
worthy of the confidence reposed in them by proposing the
measure before the House. He still repeated that in the per-
formance of the duties which they owed to the country,
and which had guided the Ministers of this great
empire in discharging the functions with which they had been
trusted, they had acted consistently, and with a desire to pro-
mote the peace and the prosperity of the country ; and he
knew not what were the measures which the Noble Earl sup-
posed they ought to have adopted. He (Lord Stanley) knew
not what those steps were which ought to have been
taken in consequence of the proceedings which he said had
taken place—but this he would say, that that department of her
Majesty's Government to which the peace of the country more'
especially belonged had got the earliest information of what had
taken place, or what was likely to take place in Dublin. They did
not hear of a demonstration which was likely to disturb the
public peace, or that in those proceedings there was any viola-
tion of the law of the land, and if that result should be upon an
occasion intended to celebrate the anniversary of the conviction
which was subsequently set aside by a judgment of their Lord-
ships' House on technical points of law—if the crowds who went
to pay their respects to Mr. O'Connell, and to express their
opinions—if a much larger proportion of the population of
Dublin, as his Noble Friend had stated, in boats and ships
came with flags to see the procession—if all these things
took:; place, and if no interruption of the peace took
place—that no violation of the law took place—that
in the opinion of the officers of the law there
was nothing in the proceedings of that day that made any man
amenable to the law. He (Lord Stanley) himself thought it
was the duty of the Government to watch that there was no
interruption of the public peace, and that they were not called
upon by such an occasion to come forward and see that the
proceedings were not beyond or above the law. He could not
think that great part of the Noble Earl's speech was pecu-
liarly applicable to the subject-matter ; neither did he pre-
cisely understand why the Noble Earl drew a distinction be-
tween the proceedings of some days in Dublin and of others.
He did not think the Noble Lord (Lord Roden) was serious in
proposing the amendment which he had brought forward. He
distinctly stated that he brought it forward—not because
he had the smallest idea that it would lead to
an inquiry not that it would affect his vote,
but to stop and defeat the measure that had been brought for-
ward by her Majesty's Government.—( Hear, hear.) He
brought forward his amendment for the purpose of an inquiry
into the doctrines taught in the College of Maynooth, and of
the discipline of the College. And why ? Because he could
prove that since the passing of the Catholic Relief Act, certain
young men in that College had been admitted into the society
of the Jesuits. The Noble Earl said he was prepared to prove
what he had stated. If such a thing had happened—
if, in opposition to the Act of 1829, any young men
had been introduced from that college into the Society of
Jesuits. he was liable to be banished for a misdemeanor.

If,therefore, the Noble Earl, or any one else, was desirous
to proceed, the law was open to them. He (Lord Stan-
ley) understood that the amendment was not to be a sub-
stantial measure, and the question was, would they accept or
reject the measure proposed by her Majesty's Government.
He conceived that such an inquiry as that proposed
by the Noble Earl would be entirely useless.
Ho would admit, nay, he would say, that if the inquiry were to
be instituted according to the motion of the Noble Earl, it
should be made with a view to elicit the practice of the officers
rather than proving from the books of the College the exploded
doctrines which might be gathered from the text-books, but
which were utterly repudiates by the professors of Maynooth.
At the best, such an inquiry must prove most unsatisfactory
and unprofitable. They had no right to institute an inquiry
into the doctrines taught at Maynooth, but they hada right to
inquire into the manner in which the professors and the pupils
had acted in the exercise of these principles. Into this they
had a right to inquire. But this was the course that
had been pursued by the professors of that College.
In 1798, when there had been great suspicion of the feelings
and allegiance of the denizens of Maynooth, and when the doc-
trines taught there had come into question, an inquiry had been
instituted into the doctrines taught at that establishment, and
of their effects on its pupils, and what was the re-
sult ? They had found, on inquiry, that there was cause
for sutpicion, and they acted accordingly. About that time a
number of pupils had been to Maynooth, and the first thing
that was presented to them was the offer of the oath of supre-
macy. Many of them had, doubtless, availed themselves of the
kissing the thumb instead of the ook, and all those little
means of equivocation which were so well known, and well ap-
preciated by those" who wished to take an undue and im-
proper advantage of it. In this instance the oath of supremacy
and allegiance had been tendered and accepted, and when the
test was tried it was itund that both the students and the profes-
sors were equally anxious to Support the character of all
in the establishment. With such a fact before them, were they
to slander away the character of those who had the guidance
of the College of Maynooth ? What was the character of the
oath which was prescribed to the students on entering the Col-
. .

lege? It contained provisions for the whole of th.ose duties,
which, as members of a social community, they were bound to
fulfil. That was the declaration of the time, and' it was fully
borne out by the politics and proceedings of Maynooth ; and
when, in 1793, the inquiry of which he had spoken had been
instituted, it bad led to the expulsion of several students from
the College.—( Hear, hear.) With regard to the doctrines
taught at Maynooth, it was very true that Dr. Crotty
and Dr. M'Hale differed in opinion as to the
doctrines taught at Maynooth, yet they still both agreed in the
principle that they were opposed to the ultra-montane prinsi-
ples which had been so feared by certain professors of the
Roman Catholic doctrines in that College. It was true that
the feelings of the country had been represented as being op-
posed to the Roman Catholic religion; but if he could under-
stand the country right, he was right in asserting that the opi-
nion of the country was gathered from the petitions made to
the House; but the fact was, that those were the petitions of
sectarians, and not of the body o 1 the people. Now he found
that a great majority of the petitions which had been presented
to that House, had proceeded from Dissenting congre-
gations, who held that no religious denominations
ought to be maintained by an endowment from
the State. It was a matter of principle, and they
prayed that net Maynooth alone, but that no other establish-
ment connected with the Church should receivean endowment.
To the Noble Lord who bad spoken that evening, he would
say that neither from Oxford or Cambridge had any petition
been presented is opposition to the measure before their
Lordships.
A NOBLE LORD—Nor from Dublin.
Lord STANLEY, in continuation—Nor from Dublin, and
if Noble Lords would carefully examine the signatures ap-
pended to those petitions, they would find that of
the Members of Oxford and Cambridge who had signed
those petitions—( Hear, hear)—a preponderating number
were in favour of this measure . But of the petitions emanating
from dissenting congregations, he would say, that they were
founded on a supposition altogether erroneous—they were
founded on an apprehension that the measure tended to the in-
jury of the Protestant, Chursli, ..and to the promotion of the
Roman Catholic faitl2,..;-)loz. he could as-ure their LorylshiPs
that if he thought thil that-measly° would tend in the slightest
degree to the injuri, of the Protestant Church, if he thought
that it tended to injure them in their temporal,
or still more, to injure them in their spiritual in-
terests, he (Lord Stanley) would be the first to
refuse his sanction to such a measure, he would be the very
first to denounce that measure, and he would continue his op-
position to it to its very latest stage. He was afraid that the
distinction was not sufficiently marked between those measures
which, while they benefited the Roman Catholic Church, in-
jured not the Protestant Establishment. And he:was one who did
not think it necessary to injure the one in order to advantage
the other. He did not think that the benefit conferred on the
one must necessarily injure the other. That was no new opi-
nion of his, and without pretending to any bastard consistency,
he could inform the House that in all times there had

been no change in his opinion, on the subject under dis

cussion ; there had been no alteration in his votes. He
could well imagine that many of their Lordships, who, pre-
vious to 1829, would have been desirous of witholding poli-
tical power from Roman Catholics, and who were opposed
to the present measure on the ground of argument, that if
they entrusted political power to a people ignorant, they
would pervert it, to them he would say, it was better to en-
trust that political power to an educated than to an unedu-
cated people. In the year 1821 he had strenuously resisted
a proposition which he believed to be inimical to the
interests of the country,_ but that did not prevent him in 1825
from voting for a measure of larger compass than the present
measure, brought forward not for an annual endowment only to
the College of Maynooth, but for the relief of the whole body
of the Roman Catholics. He had been asked whether it was
not a necessary consequence that this endowment of the Col-
lege of Maynooth would not lead to the endowment of the Ro-
man Catholic Church. He saw no such necessary conse-
quence—he saw no such probable consequence. They had for
fifty years given a constant annual aid to the College of
Maynooth, and he could not see that its perma-
nent endowment necessarily led to an endow-
mentof the Church, any more than that an annual endowment
for the one, should lead to the annual endowment of the other.
He saw obstructions in the opinions and in the prejudices of the
people of this country ; ho saw obstructions and objections in
the Roman Catholic clergy themselves ; he saw many and
great objections in the way of this endowment, but he would say
that if any such objections existed in his own mind, religious
scruples would not prevent him from supporting the motion.
Where was the injury to the Protestant Church? Was it
an injury to their temporal or to their spiritual interests?
He knew none such, but it did appear to him, that if an in-
jury to their temporal interests were to be apprehended, that
was still more strongly to be apprehended from an unendowed
than from an endowed establishment—from a body of men
who had been refused every thing, than from a body of men
who had been themselves endowed fur the promotion of reli-
gion. If they looked to the spiritual interests of the Church,
or the influence which the education of the Col-
lege of Maynooth would have upon the morals of
the youth, he would say that such a danger might be appre-
hended, if Catholics and Protestants received the same educa-
tion from Roman Catholic teachers ; but that not being the
case, he could conceive no such danger. There were some
who indulged in the dream that, at some future
period, in consequence of some indefinite or un-
defined legislation, the whole of the Roman Catholics
of Ireland would be within the pale of Protestantism. No
one could wish to see such a consummation more than he
did ; but, looking at the experience of the past, and the pro-
bability of the future, he confessed that he regarded such a
vision as wholly Utopian. Confessions from the Roman
Catholic religion could not be impeded by this measure, be-
cause if the measure should have any effect upon
Roman Catholics at all it would not be to
make them worse, but. rather to make them less and better.—
( Hear, hear.) He was deeply sensible of the many errors and
failings of the Roman Catholic Church, and as strongly con-
vinced of the superior purity of his own Church, and the truth
and doctrines of his own Church ; yet if he were en-
trusted with the care of a being whom he loved best in
the world, say for instance, a child of his own,
he should much rather prefer bringing it up in the profession of
the Roman Catholic religion than leaving it wholly destitute
of religious instruction.—( Hear, hear.) Rut this was not a
parallel case with Ireland, for a large proportion of the people
of Ireland were Catholics. They would be Catholics and must
be Catholics, and the question for them now to consider was,
whether they should be instructed Catholics or not.—(Hear,
hear.) Whether they would suffer their priests to be ignorant,
illiterate and unlettered on the one hand, or well educated and
well instructed on the other.—( Hear, hear.) Then, again,
looking at the matter in a religious point of view, he was far
from thinking that he was doing anything hostile or at variance
with his religious professions, and he said as a Chris-
tian, not less than as a politician, that it was
right, and wise, and good, that they should
give their Roman Catholic fellow• subjects the best
possible religious education in the form of warship
they preferred to receive it in.—( Hear, hear.) He would not
go over the ground of argument which had been followed by
his Noble Friend, who was connected with the county of Lime-
rick, with regard to the question of principle, so far as the
same measure might apply to the colonies—( Hear,
hear)—but he would simply simply content himself by
reminding their Lordships, that so far from the measure
introducing any new principle, he might mention that in Ca-
nada, Malta, and other countries to which England was bound
or attached by treaties or otherwise, Roman Catholic institu-
tions were endowed and supported out of the public funds.—
( Hear, hear.) He had carefully examined all the authorities in
favour of the endowment of Maynooth and against it, and from
a full oomparison of all that he had heard, and
of all that
he had read, he could come to no other conclusion, gm that by