The Sun.
London, England, 1842-06-15 00:00:00

Sg.
t
itself

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-97

name the ifirtabers of his Committee to-morrow.

quiry ought to be instituted, on the same ground as other
Inquiries had taken place. It was his intention, there-
fore, to vote for inquiry, and fur the suspension of the
Writ for a limited time, till that inquiry should take
Place. lie thought, at the same time, that they ought
at once to determine what the nature of the inquiry
Fhouldit be, and the constitution of the tribunal to con-
sider. .
Mr. O'CONNELL would leave the constitution of the
Committee to• the Right Hon. Baronet.
Sir R. PEEL—Oh, I'd rather not have it.
Sir C. LEMON was for the inquiry, and Vie su;pen-
sion of the writ.
Sir R. INGLIS thought that it Ought to be issued for
1/elfast, even if they had a Committee of Inquiry. No
?tifficient grounds had, in his opinion, been shown why,
in that instance, the great privilege of the subject should
be withheld.
REDINGTON thought that the writ should
not 'now be issued ; and he thought the Right Hon.
-arbnet had acted, on that occasion, in a manner which
thd him great credit.—(Hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said, that his Hon. Friend oppo-
site stated that he would not suspend the writ unless the
I?nse was prepared to disfranchise the borough: Now
this seemed to him (Lord J. Russell) an extraordinary
Position. It was natural that the House should institute
an inquiry in the first instance, and leave the seat vacant
In the mean time. The facts stated to the House were,
In his opinion, sufficient to justify such a course. The
remedy which they would hereafter apply might be such
17 to procure a better and a fairer system of election at
Ifust- It might be proved that a numbee of
ilyitnesses were in the habit of receiving bribes
-,L!.ttitq might purge the constituency of that part of their
uu3', lie might devise other remedies for the evils which
11°w prevailed in the electoral system in Ireland. They
Taight find, for instance, that too great a number of names
could poll in one booth only, and they might remove that in-
'convenience. But all these things, and many others,
,Brit be the result of the inquiry. They should not allow
1 large borough to escape without any investigation into al-
ited corrupt practices, while they were ready to suspend the
4!tits iu smaller constituencies. In large boroughs, as well
14. in small ones, they were bound to take the course which
,Its_ight be thought appropriate in each instance. He confessed
11e*gretted that a different course had been taken with re-
spect to some of the boroughs in which corrupt practices were
Flo' Plained of, and it appeared to him that it . would have been
tl to have issued none of these writs in the first instance
until the different cases had all been considered. However, in
the
Present instance, he was quite satisfied with the course
wby the Right Hon Baronet, and he should certainly vote
with
m.
• ‘lr- P. SHAW in reply, said that he had no desire what-
, :4:71• -. to make this a party conflict. The Members themselves
7‘ed that they had had any participation in the compromise.
el
y- stated that no such compromise had been acted on, and
believed what they stated. A compromise, as such, was not
-ttrtong, 4* a -compromise were entered into by Members of
-, t
rouse for the- purpose of avoid ng an investigation into..
berg,;-ie., then such a compromise was a gross breach of
e on' the part of such Members, and should be visited as
-gcalt ; but here, such was not the case. He verily believed
;fit
Air, Johnson' was a bona fide candidate, and that if the
f‘.711 were issued,' there would be a severe contest,
All probability a fresh petition, and in coo-
-14-▪ 51tteuee afresh Committee. He had no doubt that
ett,;,/_iltjaal to defend the seat, was a mere matter of
The agents, ' no doubt, considered that
..,2Vould be less expensive to go to a new election than to
• Cend the seat. In the Nottingham case the Members had
t .772. declared duly. elected. But that was not the case here.
and parties here were, he believed, bona fide candidates again,
!Were would be a full opportunity of investigating the
latter before a tribunal constituted for that purpose. He did
Wl think there was any case made for the suspension of the
7t,..beeause it was the established law that the writ should
he rme until sufficient cause was shown why it should not, and
did net think that sufficient cause was shown in the pre-
' It ea, Le. He knew very well, after what had fallen from his
(C-k"' flea. Friend, what the result of a division would be.—
heers.) He knew he would be in asmall minority—( Cheers)
Ziatid he would not be willing to afford the gentleman oppo-
It party triumph.—(Cheers.) His wish, therefore, was
,iir` to press the motion.—(" Divide, divide.") If it went
thtna division, he should vote according to his own convictions,
dividliuuviing what the result would be, he did not wish to
see "'e•-•-(" Divide, divide.") As the gentlemen around him
Ined to be 'anxious for a division, he would press the motion .
The House then divided when there appeared,
For issuing the writ
:Against it
Oa • Majority against issuing the writ
oar return to the gallery, we found
Woul
r• O'CONNELL stating (as we understood) that he
•

The CUS'I OMS ACTS.
, -.ewe then went into Gnnmittee on the Customs Acts.
ell?: the resolution imposing a duty of 4s. per ton on coal,
tincinders, exported in for.eign, ships, being proposed, a
tin .I'rY conversation ensued, in which Mr. Ward, Lord
%CI:A. Mr. Gladstone, and Dr. Bowring, took part, after
"Aoh the item wagreed to.
,muLtl the proposal of a duty of 2s. on coals in British ships,
jag small coal,
44 rdße CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the Noble
duty peen had the other evening asked why the 4s.
mtoite;
epoatebdandoned. When his Right Hon.. Friend made_
ightandel statement, the Government conceived that coal
uy of 4s. per ton without material
as 'eace to the trade of the country, or, at least, without
te4iravenience at all proportioned to the
.advantage which
ibwoi
roe derived to the revenue. It had since appeared to
that tb statements of parties connected with the trade,
uaty could not be contineed with effect. Foreignt hnaad-
luiorcquied the coal of this country, and doing so Vvern.
alk„,: a duty on it. It therefore became i
the
Govern-
to consider whether they could not derive a
„ -474.11. 4.,e from the export. The sum originally fixed upon was
ReusiutitX, and since that, propositions had been made to the
It was true, a great variety of statements had been
144-rie to the Government on the subject, and inquiries had
tot
;14; 'de, with a view of seeing how far the duty proposed
Ake 11aPosed was one which the article could fairly bear,
.and
'-esolt. of that inquiry was the proposition which his Right
had submitted that evening to the House. There
ke• also another Consideration which arose out of the state of
ariell4l,t• navigation. It had been represented to the Goveri-
• 101.4
co the owners of steam-vessels having depots of cca in
gee-'''4 countries, that the duty of 4s. a ton would be a bur-
k which they would not be able to bear, and they asked that
tepts might be devised for exempting them from this charge.
as
examination of the subject, it was found that it would
eoaltg s Possible to devise any satisfactory means of exempting
tram, scat abroad for these steamers, without leading to
It therefore appeared
micl_esireelethat such a rate of
fairly borne by the
• V.,t,4:°ould be imposed
.as
kel wea engaged in this sycstem in
.steam navigation, and
%ye 4Toid fraud ; these were the main inducements to the
r!Mtent to adopt the present proposition. The amount of
Y_ anticipated from the duty of 4s. was 200,0001., and from
ation that he had received, he believed that the duty. of
as d,the exportation of coal went on in the same proportion
-140:t'at the year that had elapsed, would produce altogether
anku, •* which was a reduction of 60,0001. on the gross
chit antieipated by his Right Hon. Friend. considered He.
tbadle House was perfectly justified in endeavouring to raise
a NJ. „which, without affecting our foreign trade, would make
fir'
addition to the revenue.
•qELL said, that, considering the strength of the Go-
tekk eat in that House, he felt grateful to them for the cdon-t
Alev4l they had made. A meeting had been lately hel
01. castle-
., upon-Tyne of the proprietors of collieries upon
Xttb-,""Ject now under the consideration of the House.
Isetie `, Meeting resolutions had been agreed to, stating the imd-
• attga„ll imposing any duty on the exportation of coals, an
littel3;A"ag that if it should be deemed expedient to impose
aka uuty, tt
Ought not to exceed 2s. per ton on large coal,
bat 1' Per ton on small. He felt grateful to the Right Hon.
trot:attt for the concessions he had made, and he trusted that
the great anxiety which the Right Hon. Baronet had
exhibited to promote the commercial interests of the
• rate „1.. if the imposition of the duty should be found to ope..
arre rreiadicially, he would not hesitate to reduce it, or to do
I• lk! with it altogether. He hoped, also, that the Right Hon.
liteittlet would consent to postpone the imposition of it to the
ki,Passible period—say to the month of October—because
cat,: convinced that if it were imposed earlier it would ope-
Oot teiudicially on those engaged in the collieries. He could
fi,d°wl2 without express ng his gratitude to the Govern-
had be not having extended the duty to culm and cinders, as
irat first proposed.
ount HOW ICK bad heard, with regret the intimation of
tiat in°,tl,: Gentleman opposite, that it was not his intention to per-
4ave,ii'uue eourse of which he had given notice, because he be-
atrZ..."t it he bad persevered, a case would have been made out
t• tiotekichgt_"that if it had been brought forward supported, as it
have b been supported, her Majesty's Government would
dad eon obliged to Meld.— ( Hear.) He was sorry, because
the H evolved upon him (Lord Howick) to take the sense of
tioft:l4,l6 aPon the subject, and it had imposed upon him the
44Y of expressing te the House his opinion of the
e,04 'a which the negotiations between the Hon. Member,
nthtiVe and her Majesty's Government, had been.con-
-iia bee He ought the manner in which that negotiation
Was perri! conducted was a ground for grave objection. He
laent hil,etlY aware that in all cases in which au announce:
)actit to".ucen made of an intention on the part of the Govern-
'
araraer,„Lut, P°aa a duty which wee likely to affect any of ,
11 -wetted-h.. interests of the country, those whose interests were
1412 Y a right to state their reasons to the Government
dotY should not be imposed. Nothing was more
that tb,„-an that these communications should take place, and
1414 Government should, in deference to the information
Vher.7,olll.whith might be adduced, modify the propositions
itlit iii'"ornitted to the consideration of Parliament. But, at
laatudzite e,-it was the duty of Government to make up their
lirow
:tatter deliberate consideration of the facts and reasons
iioser before theta, upon the amount of taxation to be im-
It" 4117 particular interest, • and having so de-
vras the duty of Government to propose
ft riot: "arnent the rate of duty that they thought
at tbey t°,..kaPose, without reference to the parties interested.
mid no right to say to the parties, whom a particular
Perm d affect, .‘ If you sa from your opposition, we
• )oti ers.rnend to Parliament a modified rate of duty ; but if
ettre htit in Your opposition, and impede and thwart the mea.•
i'l.°Pc4cs-we will punish you, by adhering to the wo-
ke toiaal itTesition; and impose on the interest with which you
te bea:tted luavier duty than we think it ought in reason
takehear.) A Government had no right to
of a tourse ; and •he thought no independent Member
tixtit7....tarnent was entitled to assist in carrying on any nego-
"it Oerni4""e_t induce parties to submit to the propositions of Go-
tte,angbt tou'• That was a practice against which every Member
repres set his ace. No the Government listened to the
1., 'At enlatitnlS of.personsw. Connectedwith the coal trade . gßed to th
-"u court ank the Right, Hon. Baronet, for the patience
1,4‘ hir4 esy with which he hadlistened to the statements made
er .(Lord 11 • k
Zsubject. , owie ), and the Hon. Gentleman opposite, on
ariected
.-Lie would now read to the House some documents
„ ould ,i.,._w191 the subject, and at greater length than he
lie 1/o,2en
would
the subject was so important, that he hoped
• Vftere rea"L excuse him —(Clieer. ) (The Noble Lord
~1: u a letter from the Hon.• Membe-r.foe Northumberland
• Bell), 1
4•T._ , o the Chairman of the United Committee of the
,9kic„. • •Ittel73 bland Whecawrdeale-upon- Tyne, to the effect tha,t. he
to remit 2s that the Government had shown a oisp
iztill.:dtiicb:lel:iarobiu_ttbdreal).tveetirpetetedrhd of the duty
shiproposedp dteodb
uleetho-
, twit araended ba(riNfri, e effect of inducing the coalowners
opposition to the duty as it now stood
na_piely, 4s. per ton; that it would be.
favourabl
;clot), to him
,a:v_nertinnineent of r. Bell) to learn that such a proposition
receivedYwhih e
hadby. the trade in general, as th anent was so strong that he had no hope of carrying the
ivtheneynwoteiticle
, kv';ce dotslure would be that se-
ahthle satdhdiateithe
unit f 4s ) The Noble Lord went on
ii,t that letter .wper t°ll.
_en reduction'
* :)441 as communicated to the Committee of the
fr.4'""latZ7l:ustaNteinwgeathstaltelhaendirt°eettihngewithet the
a y
2.bs,
atshgi
rnoes t they
fer
thead adopted
and of 2s on coals exported in British ship, and
ed to ex
e hat
faprreastsththeedirisegrate.ful sense of Mr. Bell's exertions
was
coneernedrimin, ating duty between British and
with tte the meeting were strongly im-
G Re *flied eCnnlettpli LW the duty of 2s. could
without •
%manly affecting the importation
was
a tc I ai Abp Chamber of

Commerce in Newcastle on the 3d of June, 1842, at which
the fallowing resolution was adopted—" That this meeting
are unanimously of opinion that the imposition of any duty on
the export of coals is not only objectionable in principle, but
will be highly injurious to the commercial and shipping inte-
rests of this district, as well as to the important interests de-
pendent on the prospecity of the trade. and, under this con-
viction, they express their hope that hi r Majesty's Govern-
ment will abandon the proposed or any other rate of duty." In
addition to this a meeting was held in Palace-yard of the mem-
bers connected with the coal district. 'This meeting was held
on the 30th of May, and then there was no intimation of any
farther modification of the plan being in contemplation ; but
on the fallowing morning another notice w a issued, and the
meeting again • assembled : at this meeting a resolution was
agreed to that it was inexpedient to accept a duty of 23. per
ton on all coal, but if the Government would fix a duty of 2s.
per ton on round coal, and Is. per ton on small. it would be
their interest to accept it, rather than risk the impsnit ion of the
duty originally imposed. A further resolution trusted that the
Government would be induced to abandon the imposition of
any duty, as they were convinced that any duty must
be injurious, in proportion to its amount, to the
trade and the shipping, and other intese,ts connected with it.
These were the only papers necessary to read to the House ;
and after he had done so, and referred to the speech
of the Honourable Member for South Northumberland, he
would ask whether they did not fully substantiate the state-
ments made at the commencement, that this degree of acqui-
escence in the real trade in the rates of duties now proposed,
had been obtained by a dread that if they persisted in refusing
to agree to the compromise the Government proposed, they
would propose the ruinous duty of 4s. Was that a mode of
proceeding to which the House should give its sanction and
approbation. Ile would say no more as to the manner in
which they compromised; but lie would now consider whether
the duty, in its present modified shape, was one which the
House ought to consent to. He contended that it was not.
Had any sound reason been shown for the House adopting so
high a duty? He had received a statement from a gentleman,
who was one of the largest proprietors of colleries on the Weir,
and he stated that they had been selling coals at Is. 6d. a ton,
so that the duty, in some instances, would be 40, and, in others,
70 per cent. on the value of the article. He argued that the
increase in exportation of coal was always contemporaneous
with the decrease of duty ; there had recently been a diminu-
tion in the amount of the exportation from this coun-
try, which he ascribed to the sevete competition to
which they were subjected. In Holland they had to
compete with the Belgian coal, and it was the same
in the Mediterranean ; there was reason to fear that if any
duty was imposed they would lose the market of the Mediter-
ranean altogether. It was calculated that in the course of the
last year 1,000,000 tons of small coal had been destroyed in
the coal districts; and there could be no doubt but a still
greater quantity would be destroyed if our colliers were de-
prived, by the imposition of a new duty, of any of the markets
which they now possessed. It should also be remembered, that
in order to enforce the payment of the duty, there should be a
large addition made to the Custom-house force ; and the re-
venue expected from the duty would, of course, be propor-
tionately diminished. Coals were now shipped at all hours of
the day and night, and it would be found necessary to inter-
fere with that practice; so that the imposition of the
new duty would render various vexatious arrangements neces-
sary ; and the trade would thus •be materially crippled.
The argument he advanced was, that the effect of the Govern-
ment proposition would be to reduce the exportation of coal,
and instead of 140,000/., which the Right Hon. Gentleman ex-
pected, he would not get half that sum. The Right Hon.
Gentleman said that the exportation of coal gave an impulse
to manufactures abroad; but was it not notorious that manu-
factures could best be carried on where the coal was found on
the spot? That was the case in this country, and it was the
same with regard to other countries. The Right Hon. Gen-
tleman had said that this measure would have the effect of
making foreign countries tributary to them. It may be that
foreign countries would levy a tax on these coals, and they
would be a legitimate object of taxation. The imposition of
this duty would stimulate foreigners to pay attention to the
raising of coals from the mines in their own countries. A ge-
neral activity already prevailed abroad on this subject. In
France and Spain the attention both cf the Governments of
those countries and of the capitalists had been directed
to the subject of their collieries, and the Government of
this country was about to render them most im-
portant assistance by the imposition of this duty. The
loss, which we should experience in consequence, would
not be limited to the loss of our export trade for coals, but, if
foreigners succeeded in establishing a cheap production of
coals, they would employ those coals in carrying on a variety of
manufactories which would compete with our own.—(Hear. )
The coal trade was, at the present moment, in a most depressed
condition, and they were about to add to the difficulty, and
the distress experienced in the coal districts. If a small pro-
portion only of that trade should be lost, it would add greatly to
the general distress and depression. The ships which would be
thrown out of employment, would enter into competition with
those now engaged in the coasting trade, and thus depress still
lower the present ruinously low rate of freights. The labour-
ing men, who were now employed in raising coals for the foreign
market, would be thrown out of employment, and would enter
into competition with the other collieries, and thus bring down
the rate of wages ; and they were about to risk all those con-
sequences for a duty whirls it was calculated, in the gross,
would not yield more than 140,000/., and that, on a calcula-
tion that there would be no diminution in the exportation in
consequence of the tax, for a tax, the net produce of which,
would never exceed 70,000/. a year, and that at a time when
they were throwing away a revenue of 170,C00L, by a useless
alteration in the duties on coffee. He was surprised at the
Right Hon. Baronet adopting this retrograde policy with regard
to one article at the very time whenhe was stating, as an excuse,
for imposing a heavy pecuniary burden upon the nation, that
he was by his tariff affording increased facilities to trade.
Mr. HUTT, as the representatiee of an important coal
district, felt bound to protest against the imposition of this duty
even in its tnodified form, and he felt convinced that the coal-
owners of the North of England must have had other arguments
than those derived from reason laid before them to induce them
to consent to the adopting of a proposition 30 disastrous and
ruinous to the districts in which they reside. The duty would
annihilate the export trade in small coal. He could not look
at this postcript to the tariff, without expressing his astonish-
ment that such a postcript should have been added by those
who introduced the tariff itself , so inconsistent was it with all
those p: incipl, son which the tariff was founded. As it was
hostile to all former legislation on the subject, he thought the
Government were bound to state satisfactory reasons for the
proposed alteration. When the facilities of conveyance, which
were now in progress, had been completed, the coal trade would
be subjected to a most injurious competition. Nearly the
whole of Europe, as regarded the article of coal, was as yet un-
explored, and this fact, together with the progress of railways
on the Continent, might well lead them to expect great com-
petition in coal. The Hon. Gentleman trusted that the pro-
position of the Government would be abandoned, as he was
convinced there was no soundness in it. The Hon. Member
concluded by seconding the amendment of the Noble Lord.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER explained.
Lord HOWICK explained. Although it could not be said
that a threat had been held out to the coal trade, yet it could
not be denied that an inducement had been held out to them
not to agitate.
Mr. LIDDELL said, that as the Noble Lord had declared
his intention of dividing the House on this question, it became
his ( Mr. Liddell's) duty to explain the vote which he intended
to give. He considered that great danger was attendant upon
any impost on the exportation of coal, but he was happy to find
that a difference was still to continue in favour of exportation
of English buttons. He was decidedly opposed to any addi-
tional duty on coal, but as there was no chance of successfully
opposing the original proposed duty, he had considered it to be
to the advantage of the trade to accept the modified rate. But
taking all the circumstances into consideration, he could not
help regretting that her Majesty's Government had proposed
any duty at all. Having co-operated with the Hon. Member
for North Northumberland and others connected with the trade,
with respect to the compromise, he felt bound in honour to sup-
port it, and he should, therefore, not vo e with the Noble Lord,
but with her Majesty's Government. He reposed in the per-
fect hope, that if the Government found the proposed duty bad
the effect of diminishing the export of coal, they would
take hereafter some remedying steps. They must recollect
that where a market was lost it could never he regained, and
if such should he the case with respect to the coal trade, the
Government would have much to answer for.
Mr. BERNAL said that with respect to our being able to
compete with foreign countries, they must recollect that prices
of coal in France and in Antwerp had been for some time past
declining, and he thought it very doubtful whether they would
be able to compete with the foreigner, even if there was no
duty. If the Government risked the prosperity of a great in-
terest, they incurred a heavy responsibility.
Mr. GLADSTONE trusted the Committee would not think
that the proposed imposition of a duty upon coal would be
productive of very ill effects, because Hon. Members who re-
presented the coal districts had thought fit to represent the
results as most ruinous and devastating : such opposition had
been raised to almost every proposition, and for a time they
were almost led to believe that threet taxation was a bad system
of things ; and then again, when direct taxation was proposed,
the most powerful arguments were raised against that system.
It was their duty now, however, to consider the peculiar
arguments which had been made use of against this article,
and the most feasible of those, as it appeared to him, was that
which related to the money that was expected to be raised by
this tax, which was between 130,000/ and 140/. per annum
. .

He did not think that this tax would be injurious in its con-
sequences ; if the effect of it would be to impede the progress
of the trade, then it might be held to be injurious ; but when
the effect would be to raise a sum of money for their own proper
and necessary purposes, then he thought that the impost must
be considered as a proper one. Revenue was the principal
object in view, and he must say he was surprised to hear the
Noble Lord, the Member for Sunderland, say that the effect
of this tax would be to increase the price of coal to the home
consumer; on this point he (Mr. Gladstone) was of a directly
opposite opinion ; he thought that the effect would be a certain
reduction of the price to the home consumer.—( Hear, hear.)
'fhe question for the Committee to consider was, whether the
result of this impost would be any considerable diminution
upon the amount of coal at present exported. He thought that
the case of such a result occurring had not been at all made
out, for though an impost had been imposed he did not enter-
tain the slightest expectation that the foreign coal would be
able to compete with the British. The Belgian coal was of so
very inferior a character to British, that it could never compete
with it in that country for purposes requiring good coal. In
Denmark there was no doubt but the quantity at present ex-
ported from England to that country would be increased rather
than diminished, and hedid not hesitate to say that with regard
to that country the duty of 4s. might have been imposed with
very considerable advantage. To Norway, also, he thought
the exportations would increase. We had been for many
years exporting coals to Holland, and from 1831 to 1833 we
exported no less than 120,000 tons at a duty of 3s. 4d. per ton.
He could not think, then, that the apprehensions with regard
to the effects of this duty had the slightest grounds for their
foundation. _ _

Mr. LAMBTON felt himself obligedto oppose the duty even
in its modified shape, inasmuch, as it was calculated to obstruct
our commercial intercourse with other nations, and injure large
and important interests. It would injure not only the great
coalowners of the north, but also the shipowners. It would
also prove most injurious to the great steam navigation compa-
nies and the continental gas companies, which had entered into
large contracts expressly on the faith of the repeal of
this fluty. The proposition of the Government was in-
consistent with the principle of the tariff, which was one
of reciprocal benefit to this and to foreign countries. The
imposition of this duty was calettrated to irritate those Govern-
ments with which we sought to establish commercial treaties,
and to strengthen whatever determinations they might have
contemi4atgd as to imposing restrictive or prohibitive duties on
articles exported by us. On that ground alone this duty
ought to be condemned. Tt was a duty greatly calculated to
impede the commercial policy which the Right Hon. Baronet
considered of such paramount importance to estaii4sh, and he
(Mr. Lambton) should therefore feel it his duty to support
the proposition of the Nobls Lord. (Lord Howick), in opposi-
tion to that of the Government,
Mr. BELL defended himself from the attack of the Noble
Lord (Howick). He had accused him of making the inte-
rests of Li; constituents subservient to a wish not to oppose
the Government 4. more unfounded accusation was never
made, and he repellecrit with lk..e scorn and indignation it
deserved.— (Hear.) He -never did, and ;4, never would,
sacrifice the interests of his constituents, to sufiport any Go-
vernmeAt whatever. No blame could attach to her Majesty's
Governmenifor tlefart they took in this subject. Nothing
could be more manly and` straightf,crward than the manner in
which they acted—( Hear, hear)—and if there was blame any

where it should rest with himself. He did not feel called upon
to oppose the proposition of the Government.

' Lord MA HON raid that he had not a single doubt
on the important subject now before the Committee.
The proposition of her Majesty's Government coincided
with the opinions of men of the highest scientific distinc-
tion in the country, one of whom declared that to export
coat would 1 e to waste the vitals of their posterity. —( Laughter. )
He should eordially support the proposition of the Government.
Mr. F. BA RING opposed the proposition of the Govern-
ment, and supported the amendment of his Noble Friend. He
was in no small degree surprised at the course pursued by the
Noble Lord who had just sat down, because he said he should
vote for this proposition because he thought it would check
the exportation of coal, while with the same breath he
stated that he believed it would have the effect of con-
suming the vitals of posterity.—( Hear, hear.) If he
was to adopt the proposal of the Government he
should be blowing hot and cold wi:h the same breath.
He owned that he felt some alarm when he found it admitted,
on all hands, that we were now engaged in a neck-and-neck
race with the foreigner. That was admitted even by those
Hon. Gentlemen who professed themselves ready to vote with
the Government. The result of imposing the proposed duty
would be to give a great advantage to the foreigner in his
competition with the proprietor of coal in this country. On
these grounds he entirely coincided in the views of his Noble
Friend the Member for Sunderland.
Sir R. PEEL said that the prevailing feeling left on his
mind by the speeches he had heard that evening, was
one of cordial satisfaction that the Income- tax had
been secured..—( Hear, hear.) The proposal of the
Noble Lord the Member for London was, that they should
raise 3,000,0001. or 4,000,000/. by taxes upon consumption.
That was the object cf the memorable resolutions directed
against the Income-tax by the Noble Lord, in which he tried
to collect as large a force as he could under his banner. The
Noble Lord had insinuated that 23,000,0001. of taxes had been
repealed previous to the year 1836, and that they should now
impose a portion of those taxes for the purpose of increasing
the revenue. That was the inference to be drawn from the
course pursued by the Noble Lord, although he might not
have said so is express terms. Now, whet, he (Sir R. Peel)
proposed to raise by a duty upon coals a portion of the three
millions or the four millions to be secured by the Income-
tax, ho was met with an oposition that made him
rejoice that the Income-tax was beyond the reach of
Honourable Gentlemen opposite. It was admitted, however,
that the present proposal with respect to the coal-tax was in •
-finitely better than that which the Government had originally
introduced. Now, that which was infinitely better, could not
be said to be very bad. If one system were infinitely better
than another, it must have been, at least, on the high road to
perfection.—( Laughter. ) The Government proposal was sup-
ported by the coal trade.—(No, no.) He did not say it was
supported universally by the trade, but it was pretty generally
supported. It was alleged, however, that a compromise had
been effected between the Government and the trade, and that
the present proposal had been the result of that compromise.
When he had heard that statement he thought Hon. Members
were about to refer the alleged compromise to the Committee
of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman the Member for Bath.—
( A laugh.) But seriously, for his part, he could say he had
entered into no compromise.—( Hear, hear.) He had merely
pursued the course which he thought, upon the
whole, it would be advisable to follow. The Noble
Lord opposite (Lord Howick) came over the pre-
vious night and made a proposition to his Noble Friend (Lord
Sandon), and said, " If you bring your duty down to 6s. or 71.,
I shall support you, but not above that."—(Hear and a laugh.)
Why should not the Government, in a case so much affecting
the public interest, bo allowed, as well as the Noble Lord, in the
case of sugar or coffee?—(Hear and a laugh.) All the nego-
tiations that had taken place on this subject were published in
the Newcastle papers—( Hear)—and yet these negotiations
were spoken of as secret and unworthy compromises.—( Hear.)
He would return to another part of the subject. The state of
the revenue was embarrassed, and here was an article—not ca-
pable of reproduction—in which this country hail natural ad-
vantages.—( Hear, hear.) He would not say that it was de-
sirable to prevent the exportation of English coal for the
purpose of putting down foreign manufactures. He would
only say do not altogether lose the advantage offered of sub-
jecting it to revenue—( Hear, hear)—and he would show that
the duty proposed would not tend to prevent the exportation.
In the years from 1836 to 1841, the exportation of coal had
risen from 736,000 to 1,848,000 tons.—(Hear, hear.) That
showed that it was an article which would bear a duty, and he
could not think that a duty of Is. or 2s. would put an end to
such an exportation.—( Hear.) And he had the authority of no
less an economist than Mr. Warburton, for saying that it was
not desirable to encourage the exportation of British coal. But
on the other hand it was said, that foreign countries would take
umbrage at this attempt at restricting the exportation. Now,
what was the poicy of foreign countries themselves on the sub-
ject ? In the Mediterranean ports, France laid a duty of 4s. 6d.
a ton on foreign coals imported in French vessels, and 6s. 3d.
when they were imported in foreign vessels.—( Hear, hear. )
But on other parts of her coasts she charged 4s a ton on coals
imported in French, and Bs. in English vessels. In Holland
the duty was 6s. 10d. a ton. In the United States, which
took some of our coals, a duty of 6s. Bd. per ton. So it was
with Sweden, Sardinia, and Prussia. He thought that when
foreign countries did this, they had no right to have the ad-
vantage of our coals, and to have an extensive revenue from
them besides.—( Hear, hear.) Besides, this was not like silk
and other articles, which could be reproduced almost without
limit. Now, it might be true that some foreign countries had
coal mines. But take the scientific maps of Germany and
France, and look to the comparative extent of the carbonife-
rous strata. The superficial area of the coal tracks in France,
was not more than one two-hundredth part of the whole, whereas
it was in England one-twentieth. He thought, therefore, that
nothing was to be feared from the competition of the French
mines, whatever encouragement might be given to them.—
( Hear, hear.) Notwithstanding the heavy duty imposed
upon our coals by the French Government, still the
importation was large ; and in some towns, as, for instance,
in Nantes, the consumption was entirely of English coal.
He would read a letter which he had received on this subject.
—(Name, name.) He could assure the Committee that it was
a bona fide letter, from a person engaged in manufactures,
and he hoped he should not be called on to injure him by a
eisclosure of his name. ( The letter stated that the writer had
no objection to publish the fact that the coalowners of New-
castle and Durham had refused to let him have small coal
except for exportation, and that some time back they refused
to send him 200 tons, unless he went to the expense of having
it screened at 4s. per ton, and in consequence he did not get
them.) There was something, continued the Right Hon.
Baronet, in this, which he did not understand; but certainly
there was a general impression among the manufacturers of
the country that there was a higher price demanded for small
coal, if it. was to be used in domestic manufacture, than if it
was to be exported. He made every allowance for the coo-
tingent expenses, but still that was the general impression.
Now, that was a rather unfair disadvantage to which the do-
mestic manufacturer was exposed.—( Hear, hear.) He
was quite aware that no duty could be imposed
oa any article without producing some disadvantage,
but he did trust that under all the particular circumstances of
the present time, seeing the great financial exertions the House
had been called on to make, remembering the duty now pro-
posed to be laid on was imposed on the same article by every
foreign country, he hoped the House would not deprive them of
the supply to be derived from a duty that it was believed would
not injure either the shipping or commercial interests of the
country.
Mr. HUME rose amid loud cries of " Divide, divide." He
said the Right Hon. Gentleman had mixed up two questions
entirely different. The whole matter depended on an arrange-
' went of the trade with the shipping, and ought not to be con-
sidered at all. They had been told that science had assisted
the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the proposition he had
made. Ile thought no one connected with commerce could
have made a proposal so contrary to all the sound principles of
trade. It was limiting the market of a commodity which they
possessed in abundance. His objection to the proposition
rested on the declarations the Right Hon. Gentleman had him-
self made. The duty on exportation lessened the consumption,
and narrowed the market for it; they had a proof of what took
place when the duty was formerly imposed, and had they not a
right to expect that the same effect would be produced again ?
Ile reminded the Right Hon. Baronet that no act of the Whig
Ministry was so welcomed as the reduction of the duty on
sea- borne coal ; all the credit that England then gained
they would lose by the proposition of the Government.
It was against all sound policy to lay a duty on exports instead
of on imports. Believing that there was no special ground is
this case for departing from the general rule, he would cer-
tainly vote for the entire removal of the tax.
Mr. HODGSON HINDE said the body of the coal trade in
the north of England had agreed to accept the proposition of
the Government. He agreed with the estimate of the Right
Hon. Gentleman the late Chancellor of the Exchequer as to the
amount which was likely to be derived to the revenue from this
source He did not think that it would amount, as estimated by the
Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government, to 140,000/.
He hoped before they divided that the Right Hon. Baronet
would satisfy them as to the time when the duty would come
into operation ; that was a most important point to the brokers.
Ele wished to dispel the groundless alarm which, from the state-
ment of the Noble Lord the Member for Hertford, it ap-
peared existed with regard to the duration of the coal mines.
From a paper which he held in his hand he could state that one
coal field in the North extended for fifty miles in length by fif-
teen miles in breadth ; that field would be sufficient to supply
the consumption of England for the next 1,700 years, and that
calculation had been made upon the assumption that the average
thickness of the coal was eight feet, whereas it was nearly
twenty-four feet—( Hear, hear)—and he would further state
that even if the coal fieldsof Northumberland and Durham were
exhausted, the coal in the West Wold would be sufficient for
the consumption of the United Kingdom for 2,000 years.
Lord J. RUSSELL was desirous, before the House went
to a division, of stating the reasons which induced him, with
regret, to vote against the proposition of his Noble Friend, the
Member for Sunderland, and to oppose the views of his Right
Hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth.—(Hear, hear.)
But before he stated the grounds on which he was about to
give Isis vote, he felt it necessary to allide to the speech of the
Right Hon. Gentleman, at the commencement of which the
Right Hon. Gentleman had, as he (Lord .1. Russell) thought
hitchheheimhpadosbiteieonn
left, unnecessarily,land
which al lhuadde d
otdo
etehde dhiiffimc t
of the Income-tax. The Right Honourable Gentleman
tdotiepsroipno:e'
said that the taxes which had been proposed in place
of the Income-tax, had been taxes on articles which,
if imposed, would have been the destruction of the
trade in that article. Now the basis of the Propositions which
he (Lord John Russell) had brought forward was a reduction
in the duties on corn and sugar. Now with regard to the
question immediately before the House, if the question were to
be decided solely upon the principles of trade, if the question
they were discussing was whether they should prohibit the ex-
portation of coal, whether they should prevent the manufacturers
of foreign countries from deriving the advantage which they
might gain from using our coal, he certainly should not consent
to such a proposition. But if the Right Honourable
Gentleman, the Vice-President of the Board of Trade,
had discarded all those arguments, and had at once
stated that the one object the Government had in view
was the raising of revenue—( Hear, hear)—in the present
state of the finances they had to consider if the tax was of so
objectionable a nature that the House was bound to vote
against it. It was said that the trade would be destroyed. If
that were the case the revenue could not be obtained, and the
same arguments which would go to show that the trade would
be destroyed would also go to show that as a measure of reve-
nue the measure would be useless. But he did not
think that that ease had been made out. He admitted
that it would be a perilous experiment. But ho did not
think that a trade which had been increasing for many years,
would be likely to be decreased by the proposition before the
House. A duty of 4s. might perhaps have inflicted a serious
injury upon the trade. A statement had been made that the
proposed tax would amount to a ditty of 25 per cent. on round
coal, and to a higher duty on small coal. He did not think
that that was a just manner of computing the amount of the
tax. The proper method of computation was to consider what
would be the per centage on the price of coals, with the duty
on foreign coals. Now, the price of British coals at Marseilles
was 225, a ton ;at Amsterdam it was 235. An addition of 225.
a ton upon that would only amount to 9or 10 per cent. upon
the art*. Tiqt duty would not be destructive to the trade.
Ever since 1837 the eft of coal} to Denm4rk, to America, to
Holland, to Germany, and France, ha increased, Under those
circumstances, the revenue proposed. could be raised without
serious injury to the trade,' and under those circumstances he
felt that he mould not he j„stiAed !-3 refusing the Government
a revenue of I40:000?.; sehicle'courd iliT'ettlineci without any
serious injury, He wished that the' ()Onion 'of the eoalowners
had het been influenced lir the threat which had been held out