Star.
London, England, 1808-03-09 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Committee on the New Malten Election—
C. Chapman, Esq. H. Colborne, Esq. J. Smith, Esq.
B. P. Blackford, Esq. G. Morgan, Esq. H. Willoughby, Esq.
W. G. Langton, Esq. T. Baring, Esq. J. Mills, Esq. •
Hon. E. Hardy Hon. T.. Brand Hon. L. Dundas
Lord Walpole G. W. Thomas, Esq. R. Wharton, Esq.
Lord Lakes Annuity NU was read the third time, and ordered
to the Lords.

The Sugar Drawbadk sod Sugar Bounty Bills were reported,
and ordered to be engrossed.
The first Sugar Drawback Bill was read the first time; the se-
cond reading to be to-morrow.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER gave notice, that
he should, on to-morrow, move for leave to bring in a Bill to fund
sonic of the outstanding Exchequer Bills. •

TREATY WITEI SWEDEN.

Mr. PONSONBY asked the Right Hon. Secretary/ (Mr. Can-'
ning) whether the treaty under which some subsidrhad already
been paid to the King of Sweden would soon be laid upon tie
table of that House ? t •
Mr. Secretary CANNING replied, that the treaty ratiSed.bsi,
the King of Sweden had been received on Smeary, and that WI
was probable that it would be ratified by his Majesty to-morrow
and that the day after he should bring Awn oadotsige ea elm
subject.

•

GRIMYWtCH WISPITAL.
MARLgs POLE moved for leave ,vb bring
for the better regulation of the Official. Ap-
Volatavapts fe..Greenwic.b Hospital,. and the Royal
Naval Afghans. He stated, that by the - okiginal
gleaner all the Officers of that Institution should-have
sereett ii the navy, or be connected with tke navy,
wkickpraision had been grossly violated. One objeCt
of hisßall vkas to restore the operation of the original

charter in thistespeet.
Another abject of Ms 41all was to prevent in future
such misapplications of the funds of the ital,
as had been detected by the Connthslonaval
Enquiry, by obliging the Treasurer 16 tor an mo-
ney issued by order Parliarnept, for the VINa df die
Hospital, in the Bank Of EnglaaL
The Hon. Baronet neatadverted to the Royal Na-
vnaaltional ex
Asylum,pence,
a
public inttitation now supported at the
dren of seamen, especially of those who had fallen in
the service ; and as it was his desire to secure to
those persons a preference in all official appointments,
upon those establishments more immediately. connec-
ted with the naval service, and as the principle was
avowed and acknowledged by those who took a lead
in the management of this establishment, although it
had in some instances been violated, his object would
be, in the part of the Bill'which related to this institu-
,tion, to place it on the same footing with respect to
the official appointments,'as was pointed" out by the
Original charter of Greenwich Hospital, namely, to
secure an exclusive preference to such candidates for
official situations in the Asylum as hadserved in the
navy, or lived in situations connected with the naval
service ; and that even the Matron must be the widow
of an Officer who had fallen in the service of his
country. The Honourable Baronet concluded by
moving for leave to bring in a Bill for the better en-
couragement of the naval service, by carrying into
effect the purposes before mentioned.
Mr. ROSE admitted the circumstan-
by the Honourable Baronet, relative to the discovery
made by the Commission of Naval Inquiry, respect-
ing the misapplication of monies. As to the other
objects of the Bill proposed, it did not • appear that
there hail bees laid way gtoond to shew its necessity.
The Honourable Baronet had stated no case of gross
abuse in any of the appointments on the present esta-
blishment at Greenwich Hospital, or shewed any
striking instance of appointments now existing con-
trary to the spirit of the charter, where the deviation
was not absolutely necessary. The Honourable Ba-
ronet must be aware, that there were some situations
on the establishment which it was not to be expected
a man who received his early education in the navy
could fill. In the first place, the offices of Surveyor,
Architect, and Organist, were out of the question ;
and could the Honourable Baronet say, that the Re-
ceiver to the estates belonging to the Hospital should
be a naval officer ? Did he think the office of Auditor
was likely to be filled efficiently by a naval officer,
when it had been hitherto deemed necessary to have it
filled by a man of high legal knowledge ? It had'
been filled by the late Lord Thurlow, whose prede-
cessor
was a lawyer, as well as his successor. The
Bill, therefore, proposed, might do mischief, hot no
that he could see ; and with respect to the
°d
Naval Asylum, it was not entirely supported by
Parliament, but originally founded upon the liberal
subscriptions of private persons, whdm this Bill
would deprive of all controul in the direction of an
Institution to which they had so amply contributed.
He thought it would be much more decorous for the
Hon. Baronet to wait until the regulations, now in
preparation by the Governors of the Asylum, should
be laid before the House.
Mr. WHITBREAD contended, that the violation
ofthe Charter of Greenwich Hospital; in admitting per-
sons not of the Navy to appointments under it, was cer-
tainly an abuse, for which the House ought to provide
a remedy. The Right Hon. Gentleman had said,
that the Office of Receiver of Rents was one which
could not be filled by a person who had received his
early education in the Navy.. But he could, put a liv-
ing instance to the contrary of such an assertion, and
that was the Right Hon. Gentleman himself, who, if
general report said true, had his early education in the
navy—(a laugh)--though he had since filled several
high and responsible situations. No one doubted his
great talents and capacity for business. The same
might be said of an Honourable Baronet (we believe
Sir E. Nepean) who had filled the situation of Secre-
tary to the Admiralty, &c. Both these Honourable
Gentlemen were living testimonies of the truth of what
he had asserted. Did the Honourable Gentleman
mean to say, that a seafaring man could not hold a,
sinecure place ? Why, the fact was, that a man held
at that moment the very snug and lucrative situation
of Barber to the Hospital—and yet the man could not
shave!—(A cry of No! No! from the Ministerial side
of the House.)—I assert the fact, and I will give the
Gentlemen opposite the Barber's own words as to
that fact, taken on his examination before the Com-
missioners of Naval Inquiry. This man's name is
Henry Clews. Being examined, he was asked—
Q. ". What are you T—A. I superintend the shaving of the Pen-
, sioners—l can't shave myself; but I employ from five to six RIM
I have one halpenny from the men, and one penny from the boys.
—Tbe profits of my place are 1.501. per annum, after deducting
charges, fitc.—l have sometimes received in the whole Rack in the
year."—(Loud laughter.)
And this person further confessed, that lie was a
Swiu. Was not this a gross violation of the charter?
Now, surely a naval man, worn out in his country's
service, could hold such a sinecure as well as another.
But to be serious, he should ever contend that the
terms of the original Charter should be complied with
as far as possible, and that the whole• list of naval
candidates should, in every instance, be exhausted be-
fore any others were appcnuted to places under the
places under
establishment.
Mr. LOCKHART contended that any regulations
applying to the Naval Asylum, at the present moment,
would only tend to disgust the founders and subscri.
heti to that Institution, as implying some distrust of
'their intentions ; it would be much better to wait till
the4ruleland regulations which were drawing up for
that Instituiion 'should be before, the House.
Mr. PONSONBY,though he was in adverse
to Parliamentary interference with Charters,r9l
yet he
thought the present-BM' as it was proposed to revive
. and support the operation of a Charter, was laudable,
and entitled to support. But hewould advise the'
Honourable Baronet, on the present occasion, to le.
parate the objec s of the. Bill; to confine himself in
the' flirt-jun.4nm to Greenwich Hospital,' and make
the Asylum the Object cif a distitict mbasule; • ' •

alluded to

•
Mr. eitAtES: POLE agreed to
swer to something that had fallen
Honourable Gentleman (Rose), as
sident doing this and that, he said,
of the navy were not to be played xii
Mr. PERCEVAL opposed the
ground Of the incopenience of a regut
persons less qualified must be preferred
qualified.
Sir J. NEWPORT said, that the
never extend to the appointment of
sons. He contended that such a Bit.
to enforce the objects of the Charter,
praised the Hon. Gentleman for his
west of the navy.
Mr. MONTAGUE objected to
rrdenintral knowledge,-by residin,g
the E*k of Deprostramter, which 'fell
tal, he knew •tintt none bat a man i
sant with the management ar manes.
perly manage that estate.
Mr. POLE CAREW said, that
foind it impossible to adhere strictl,
the Charter, that was 4 reason for

, .
terfere • he would support the motion .
able Relative.
Sir JOHN ORDE denied that there was any 11e
cessity whatever for the Bill proposed. The hi
tion could not be in better hands than it alrenay,.„,:
An Act of Parliament would give the Truitees—no
power which they did not possess by the Charter.
Mr. EDEN explained the duties of sever of the
officers, to the performance of which persons edo,,
cated in the navy, he maintained, were e0z0n,,,.
and supported the motion. '-'""'s
Sir F. BURDETT thought it a very unusual and
extraordinary practice to oppose even the introdtunne
of a Bill, the object of which was to remedy gressan4
acknowledged abuses, The proper time for using the
reasonings which he had heard this night, wouidleie
been when the Bill was in its progress throtigh the
-House, as it would then have been seen in whac,,
stances it might be necessary to depart from therein.
lations of the charter with regard to appointrootth
and whether'such a departure might be at all
sary. There did not appear to him the shadow 4 a
reason in what a Right Hon. Gentleman had girl
i against the proposed Bill ; and the only reason he
could assign for this was, that it was not possible
even for his ingenuity to suggest any thing plausible
against it. But he rose principally for the putposeof
thanking the Hon. Baronet for persevering, in spite
of every obstacle, in the exposure of abuse; and
whatever might be the fate of his presentnotui,
though he might fail to persuade the House to accede
to it, yet still it would have some good effect in the
prevention of abase.
The question was then loudly called for, and a dii
vision took place, when there appeared,
Against the motion 78—For it 52—Majority 96.
On our re admittance to the gallery we found Sir
C. Pots moving, that there be laid before the House
a Copy of the Charter of Greenwich Horpital, which
was agreed to.
• , KIM= BILL.
The House went into it.anninittee on the Mutiny
Bill. ..•
. .
Lord CASTLERUCH proposed a elms 10
allow men the opt:on to enlist for life, instead of fop
a limited period. The reasons for this alteration. is
the plan of the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr,
'Windham) he had stated last Session. He woubloovr,
therefore, only give an outline of them. This clans,
did not destroy the plan, but protected it from having
the bad effects that might be apprehended from st.,c•
He himself was no enemy to the principle of limitel
service—both he and the late Mr. Pitt had approved
of it, and resorted to it in time of war : but he was sr;
enemy to the exclusion of service for life altogether.
Tilt Right Hon. Gentleman said that his plan was
ruined, end that he disc himself of all sort at
responsibility. He allow he was so discharged,
but if his plan had been strictly adhered to, we would
not now have had the advantage of the military mea-
sure of last Session, which had been one of great A.
ciency, He observed, that the Right Hon. Gentle.
man's plan was the only one of all the expedients that
had been adopted, which had not augmented the
strength of the army, and whose utmost merit was to.
have kept it stationary. He stated first, the augmen•
cation of the whole force, from 1804 to 1808, which
was 59,000 men. From July 1806 to July 1807, while
the Right Hon. Gentleman was in Administration,
the addition to the army had been only 7,000 men,
of which he had got 6,000 from the Additional Force
Act. He then stated the increase of the Regular
Army alone, during the same period ; and said, that
the augmentation during the Right Hon. Gentleman's
administration was only 6,000, being exactly the
number received by the operation of tl,ie Act Were'
mentioned.
Mr. WINDHAM opposed the clause. He did
he did so upon strong grounds, as it was a clandes-
tine and insidious attempt to overturn all the prinde
pies of military service he had submitted in diecourse
of the existence of the late Administration. That
plan embraced limited service for seven years, four`
teen and twenty-one, and the question was, upon the
present occasion, whether, in the Mutiny Bill now bee
fore the Committee, the clause proposed by the Nogg
Lord was intended for the Bill, or the Billfbr the
clause ? It was but justice to the Noble Lord to state.
that m 1806 he opposed, and so did all the psi
Ministry, the plan of limited military service, he (Mr.
W.) at that time submitted. That plan went as this
did, upon a clause in the Mutiny Bill, the only mode
in which so very material an alteration could be made,
But how did the fact stand ? Before he (Mr. Wiett
ham) submitted his plan, a notice of two months was
given, and after the plan had been developed, de.
hate upon debate took place, and various discus-
sions upon the policy and extent of the measure
were continued for a length of time. Not only
was his new plan fully and explicitly stated, but
he had the precise clause he moved, in addition to
the Mutiny Bill, printed and circulated long antet
cedent to the discussion. He did not blame the
Noble Lord for attempting to insert the preS
clause in.the BM, but he condemned him for doi
it so mreititiousty and clandestinely. He broil
up this clause upon no lonwr a notice than this
week, in the Report of the Committee of SupplY AI
the Army Estimates. On that day he (Mr. Wind•
ham) eireng the secret out of that Noble Lord. Thy
proposition of the Noble Lord evidently went to the
overturn of the Resolutions for liMited service adori•

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