Star.
London, England, 1830-04-27 00:00:00

USURY.

Mr. PAULET THOM PSII.I/4—;tated that lie had endeavoured
to meet the objections which bad been made by several on two of the
more prominent points of observation, with respect to enactments of
this nature. The first applied to persons borrowing money at heavy
rates of interest upon real property. Ili* next care had been di-
rected to prevent, by a suitable provision, the danger there was to
be apprehended from young men who had considerable expectations
involving themselves in ruin, by purchasing temporary accommoda-
tion in money by stipulating to pay hereafter extravagantly high
rates of interest. Ihe bill would do a great deal of good, by facili.
tating discounts, but it would not enable the lenders of money to re-
cover more than the legal rate of interest,—namely, 3 per cent. on
twang in any Court of Jussice.
_ _

Mr-. II EA-TII COT E cold that nothing could induce him to relax
his exertions in opposition to :he bill His hon. hien.' professed to
exempt contracts and mortgages from its operation, while in reality
easy were as much affected by it as any other species of property.
In fact, it would be better to abolish the usury laws altogether
is a fair and direct way, than by a proceeding of this nature,
calculated to throw dust into the eyes of the country gentlemen,
who would eventually become considerable losers by such a
change. Besides, he would ask whether the present was a++
moment favourable to the abolition of the usury laws. If
any interest could be said to flourish now in this country, it Was I
the monied interest, —the interest of the great capitalists. Amongst
other things, the slate of the currency had operated favourably for!
them. The effect of the present Bill would be to enable them to
take almost unlimited interest. This would operate ruinously upon !
the trading, but still more so upon the agricultural interests, by ad-1
ding to that general distrust and anxiety which constituted so great
an evil. But he would prophecy that the present Bill would share !
the fate of all such Bills; and if it was evident that it could not
pees the sooner it was got rid of the better. For these reasons, he
should feel it his duty to divide the house in the present stage.
Mr. UORDON said that, during the last 20 years, he had fought
under the banner of the hon. member for Wareham, in opposition to
bills founded upon the sante principle as the present, though he de.
'paired of doing so any longer. He hoped, however, that the hon.
member would favr.ur the House with Ills present opinions upon
that subject. There was one advantage in the Balls formerly intro-
duced by a beamed Sergeant (llnslow ;) they went fairly to work :
they professed to repeal the Usury Laws altogether. But there was,
if he might use :he expression, a little trickery in the present Bill ;
for while it enabled you to contract tor the payment of ten per cent.
it prevented your being compelled to pay more than five per cent.
Ito hoped that his hon. friend, the member for Wareham, would
give the house his assistance in resisting such a bill.
Mr. C.II.CHAFT observed that, though the hon. gentleman
seemed to decline fighting ur.der his banner, lie had Ito objection
t m fight under that of time hon. gentlemen, so far as the present
question was concerned. lie did nut thank the present a less ob-
noxious measure than that which he had so often opposed. The
hon. gentleman wilt, had introduced the measure professed that it
shatild nut affect mortgages. But how could that he avoided when it
affected all moneyed transactions? lie did not think that the pre-
sent was a moment when such a change could be adopted with pro.
dace There was lever enough in the country—there was want of
confidence enough without aggravating it farther by departing from
a system which had hitherto worked well.
Mr. ROBINSON deeded that the existing system had ever worked
well for any party. At the present moment it operated most inju.
riously towards commercial and trading men. When the Usury
Laws were passed there might have been reasons for limiting the
interest to 5 per cent ; there was then less capital here and all over
the world ; but now that capital was increased, restriction, imposed
by those laws were a great hardship on those who had money to
lend, and still greater on those who wanted to borrow. It was a de-
lusion to say that money could not now bring a greater interest than
5 per cent. The fact was that the present state of the law drove
them into expensive expedients to evade it. But while he approved
the principle of the bill, he objected to that clause which held out
an encouragement to persons to defeat their contracts by an appeal
to the law itself .2
Lord ALTIIORP maintained that if ever the usury laws were to
b. changed, there could be no time more convenient for effecting
Ow change than the present. There was at present the same, or a
greater temptation to fraud; for If a party borrowed money upon
usurious interest, lie could refuse to pay either principal or interest.
The clause objected to was, therefore, a relaxation of the existing
law in that respect. He did not think that the repeal would be in.
jurious to the landed interest, but that, on the contrary, all parties
would be benefitted by the change.
Sir C. WETHERELL declared that he should feel great sur-
prise if any lawyer could be found to approve of the present Bill.
He ridiculed the provision which enabled parties to contract for
more than 5 per cent. at the sante time that no Court in the King.
dom should have the power to enforce it. Neither could he con-
ceive what was meant by the voluntary payment of interest in ano-
titer clause. The effect of the Bill would be to enhance the price
of money to the country gentlemen, and, finally, to rob them of
their estates. After the repeated discussions which had taken place
in that house, he thought no dispassionate man could maintain the
opinion that money could be left free, like other commodities, when
all history bore evidence to the reverse.
Mr. O'CONNELL declared his opinion, as a lawyer, that the
bill was a good bill, so far as it went ; and all the fault lie could
find was, that it did not go far enough. It was impossible to put a
maximum price upon any commodity ; and money resembled all
other commodities. Robespierre could not accomplish it in France.
Nor could any one, in any country; for the law was, and would
continue to be, evaded. The bill would operate as a relief to the
severity of the usury laws, by securing the principal and the legal
interest It did not turn the law into a sword, to cut down such
contracts altogether. There were many inconveniences under the
present system ; and amongst them was a high rate of interest, and
the frequent commission of perjury by juries, in order to avoid
committing robbery. If he had any objection to the bill. it was
that it did not go far enough.
The SOLICITOR.° ENERAL expressed himself favourable to
the principle of altering the Usury lAws. He agreed that the pie.
sent was a favourable moment for making the experiment, the rate
of money being now so low. It was in times of pressure that the
Usury Laws operated, and then they operated injuriously to those
whom they were intended to favour. Some evasion was always
found out. But while he approved of the principle, he objected to
the enactments of the bill ; and especially to the anomaly of enabling
a party to do what it did not enable the to enforce. The bill was
an indirect repeal of the Usury Laws.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL declared himself also in favour
of the principle, and thought that the enactments might be improved
in the committee. The rate of interest, for instance, might be
fixed there; but at present they had only to deal with the
principle on the second reading. He had always advocated the
repeal of the Usury Laws, and was still of opinion that it was
a measure which would be attended with the best effects. (Hear.)
Looking at those who brought in this bill, be should say that
it was clear those who lent the money did not make the laws.—
The borrowers of money deceived themselves greatly if they thought
they would derive any benefit from this measure. It was impos-
sible, by any legislative measure, to fix the rate of interest. The
certain effect of fixing the rate of interest would be to compel
those who wanted to borrow money to get It at a higher rate
of interest, by compelling them to resort to evasions, which
would eventually raise the rate of interest. Those, therefore, who
were most entitled to the protection of the Legislature, were those
who would be most injured by the measure. They would be still
wane off, being obliged to borrow upon annuities. The bill did
not operate, or if its operation was felt at all, it operated to the '1
prejudice of the honest borrower • whereas, if the borrower was other-
wise than honest. It acted in theft favour. How did it act with re.
spect to bankers? Not at all. It was known that bankers could
obtain any interest almost they demanded by discounting bills.—
They could get mote than five per cent. If, then, money could be
obtained upon these terms, be could not agree to the measure. It
would be a hardship upon those who had money to knd. For all
these reasons, and because the measure did not afford protection
to those who were the most entitled to protection, be should vote
against the second reading of this Bill.
The house then divided, when there appessed—
For the second reading
Against it. • .. 2l
Majority
. • The Bill was then read a second time, and Monday next fixed for
committing the BW.

11UPZIANNIVATIOWL
The CHANCELLOR et the EXCHEQUER rose to call the
Wend= of the house to this subject. as one of peat impedance.
Ile vu about to bring in a bill to nosolate thus mitten, and he
hoped be should succeed in doing it In s way stabbctoey to pan.

mint. He sltunld premise by saying that he did not Inca::
troduce any alteration in the principle of superannuatioax to
which there was no objection. It could not be dented' tote
that the principle of providing tOr retired public servo.;
was tmobjectionable. A few years ago to had hint
self introduced a measure upon this subject, but, Iron.;
little support he received in the house, he felt obliged ~
abandon it. The causes, however, which operated with the I
mace Committee in the tecoirmcndation of a measure upon e..
subject, still existed. The report presented an intrueithe mete ee
information upon the subject. The house should know that the
whole amount of allowances to civil and military (takers are
between 5 Lod 6,ooo,oool.—(hear). A subjtct of such importance
it had been thought necessary to have looked into, and it ten
now proposed to have the opinions of competent persons epee
the subject.—He had a bill prepared which he would after.
weeds intruduce, and then submit the whole question to the
house ; for he could not agree to die plan which had for some tee .
been followed, of enacting in one yeas what they found neat yet;
necessary to repeal. It was better to lay down. on a fair principl:,
sonic specific a:A intelligible plan, and then make up their minds t
adhere to it. Ile could not see any objection to his motion, aid ei
would there :.cre move that a select committee be appointed to inque •
into the civ I euperennuatione, and to con eider wet alteraiieei
might be neceemary.
The motion was then agreed to, and a committee appointed.
CORIION moved that it be an instruction to the coniteetee
to consider the expediency of placing full pay and Italf.pay othetes
under similar tegulations, when appointed to civil (Aces.
The CHA NCELLOR of the EXCHEQUI:R could not cense
to the motion, because it would embrace a totally different queetioe,
and thou lit it would be better to discuss a measure of that Mire .
ance by itself.
The motion was put, and negatived.
51r. W. PEEL obtained leave to bring in a Bill to repeal the,
.55:11 Geo. 111. cap. 49, entitled an Act to procure a Return of Per.
sons committed, tried, and convicted, for Criminal Offences and
Misdemeanors.

Sir CHARLES WETHERELL postponed his motion relative
to the appointment of another sludge in the Court of Chancery till
thiv day iiesiniglit.
Adjourned at One o'Clock.

HOUSE OF LORDS—Tits, DA Y.

APPEALS.
To be Lard at to o'clock.

Cathieluel v. Wilson et e contra. Appeal—to be further hearJ.
OHDELS OF IHE DAY.

John Hadley IVOyley's Divorce Bill—witnesses to be examine,'
tbetcon at the bar, and toll to he read a second time—[Lords
dcred to be specially summoned thereon.]
Poor Lava (Scotland 11111)--to b: read a second time.—[hurl.
ordered to li,:hunimoned.]
Duke of Argyll's Estate Bill—to be considered in Coinmittte.
East Retford Dill—witnesses to be examined in support thereof.

I

THE EVENING STAR.