The Sun.
London, England, 1827-03-10 00:00:00

MACHINERY.

Mr. H. MAXWELL presented a petition from
the operative sawyers employed in the timber yards on the banks
of the Thames, praying that a duty might be imposed on
machinery.
Mr. HOBHOUSE said that the petitioners, some
of whom were his constituents, requested him to swpport this
petition.
Mr. HUME called the attention of Hon. Members
to this petition, as it came from an important class of labourers.
The petition was then read, and laid on the table.
Sir J. CAMPBELL presented a petition from a
parish in Dumbarton, praying for assistance towards emigration.
—l2eferrea to the Committee on Emigration.
In consequence of a Message from the Lords, Samuel Scott,
Esq., was permitted to attend their Lordships' Committee to be
examined on the prices of corn in foreign ports.
On the motion of Mr. MABERLY, accounts
were ordered of the Amount of the Funded and Unfunded Debt,
&c. &c. in the year 182 G.
Mr. BANKES, sell., gave notice, that on the first
day that the House would go into a Committee of Supply, he
would move the Estimates for the British Museum.
SHIPPING INTERESTS and RECIPROCITY DUTIES.
Mr. BRIGHT, in presenting a petition from the
owners of British vessels in the city of Bristol, praying fur pro-
, tection to the Shipping Interests, expressed a wish that the
Right lion. Gentleman the Vice-President of the Board of Trade,
would lay before the House, Copies of the Orders in Council re-
specting the Reciprocity Duties—the ports to which they were
extended, and the times at which they were to commence.
General GASCOYNE was understood to say, that
he would take occasion to move for a Committee of Inquiry on
the subject of British Shipping.
Shippingtq uir!e
Interests
th e
proposed
Air
c.\o\mr AmLi t
tee we
L Aere to E abse n kceod fine
,
4xclusively. if
tothtleie
Mr. C. GRANT said, that there was no objection
to produce the Orders in Council, as they might be had from the
General GASCOYNE said—Certainly.
Gazette.—The petition was then read, and laid on the table.
Mr. E. DAVENPORT postponed his motion to
the 23d of May.
On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the
EXCHEQUER, it was ordered that the House, at its rising, do
adjourn to Monday next.
The third reading of the Mutiny Bill, after some conversation,
was put off till Monday, on the understanding that it should be
the first thing brought on.

CORN TRADE ACTS.
On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, the
House went into a Committee to consider these Acts.
Mr. W. WHITMORE then rose, and said that he
meant to propose some resolutions as an amendment to those
which had been proposed by the Right Hon. Secretary (Mr. Can-
ning.) He hoped in doing so that the House would 'excuse him,
because of his connexion with that class of individuals whose in-
terests were more immediately involved in this question, and be-
cause he felt a deep and painful conviction that the 'measures pro-
posed by his Majesty's Government were not calculated to produce
those beneficial effects which some Hon. Members had antici-
pated.—(Hear, hear, hear.)—ln rising to address the House on
this occasion, he could not help reflecting, that they were called
upon to consider measures of great importance to all classes of the
King's subjects, and he would add of life or death tod some: He
implored the House therefore to proceed slowly an cmitiously,
for he felt convinced that the country would not be satisfied un-
less the subject should be fully examined, and openly and patiently
discussed. Under those circumstances, he hoped that the indivi-
dual who now addressed them, with feelings certainly not the
most animating, might claim the favorr of at least a patient hear-
ing.—(Hear, hear.)—llnt if he claimed that favour for himself
individually, bow much more necessary would it be to bestow a
patient investigation on the subject itself.—(Hear, hear.)—With-
out further preface, he eh ould at once proceed to acquaint the
House with the views which he entertained on this subject, and
his reasons for opposing the propositions of his Majesty's Govern-
ment. He objected to those resolutions on two grounds—first,
,
because he conceived that corn would be subject to greater fluc-
tuations price, under the new arrangement than would be con-
sistent interest of the home grower ; and, secondly,
with of
the
be-
cause the facilities afforded to importation would raise the value of
corn in this country, and cause it to decline abroad, by which
means a great proportion of our capital would be withdrawn,
which would intend to increase the price of labour abroad, and
depress it at home. The price of corn, the Hon. Member pro-
ceeded to show, must necessarily fluctuate on account of the dif-
ference of the seasons, and it was the importation of fo-
reign corn that alone could equalize and regulate the price.—
The effect of fluctuations in the corn market were highly in-
jurious to the landed interest. The expellees of the farmer must
always be regulated by the price at which he can sell his corn.
l-lence the necessity of adopting some fixed standard to regulate
the market. If a system of fluctuations were to continue for
four or five years, it would be lamentable to contemplate the dis-
' tress and misery to which the landed proprietors, and particularly
the farmers, would be reduced; for nothing, he contended, was

more injurious to the holders of land, than fluctuations k the price
of corn. The sudden fall of price in the year 1818, occurred in

consequence of the great importation that took place in that year.
No less a quantity than 1,500,000 quarters of wheat were then
imported, in consequence of the failure of the harvest here. But
a considerable fall of price took place in 1821 and 1822, because
the supply was greater in those years than had been for some time

before. This, he contended, would occur again, if prohibition
were resorted to, because if a larger quantity of corn was produced
than was necessary for the consumption of the country, the price
must of necessity fall. He was convinced that, if the farmers
were once in possession of the real merits of the case, they would
see the injurious tendency of a system of prohibition. He called
upon the House to reflect, whether, if a principle were introduced,
the effect of which would be to lower the capital of the country,
that capital would remain at home. In the same proportion as
the price of corn rose in England it would decline abroad. If
there was a regular demand in the English market for foreign
corn, the effect would be that it would bring 355. If there was

no demand for foreign corn, the price would be 255. Suppose
the price of corn was raised to 605., arising from the circumstance
of their being no importation ; then corn would fall abroad, in
Poland and elsewhere, to 255., so that there would be a difference

of 355. between the price of corn at home and that for which it

could be purchased abroad. Would not this, in the end, deprive
the farmers and the lauded interest of the animus so necessary to

their well-being. This system, the Hon. Gentleman observed, must
be ruinous if it were followed in England. The effect would be

that this country would soon be deprived of that capital
from which her former power and-independence had flowed for so
long a period. If Government adopted any plan by which
these effects should be produced, he contended that his Ma-
jesty's Ministers could no.longer lay claim to that wise and libe-
ral system of practical economy, for which the country was
willing to give them credit. Such a system would be totally at
variance, not only with the interests of the country, but with
common sense also ; and he owned that he could conceive no

plan invented, not by the ingenuity, but by the malice of man,
so destructive in its consequences as that system, the evils of which
he had endeavoured to expose. The Hon. Gentleman then re-
ferred to the opinion of Adam Smith to illustrate and support
the view which he had taken. The Hon. Member having read
an extract from the Wealth of Nations, observed, here, then,
was an attempt to raise the price of food, and ruin was the con-
sequence. Was not this, then, a practical instance of that mis-
chievous system, the evils of which he had endeavoured to ex-
plain, although he found he could never sufficiently expose them ?
_(Hear, hear.)--If the holders of capital found that they could
make 10 per cent. of it instead of three, they would soon send it
to a better market. It N;as so in Holland ; and such would be
the case here if the same system were pursued. It was easy to
talk of suppressing this system by a remunerating price—but,
until the nature of man was changed from what it was, it was
useless to rely upon any such security. He hoped the House
would consider the subject as one that vitally affected the inte-
rests of the country. The question reduced itself to this--either
we were to keep our capital amongst ourselves, or suffer it to
be drawn away from us, to enrich other countries. It was the
idlest of all idle things, to think of raising an artificial free
price in corn. It would be quite impossible to foresee all the
consequences of the dangerous and fallacious principle to which
he had adverted. Ile saw that great evils would arise, in the
first instance, from the fluctuations in the price of corn, un-
der the new measure. The standard of 60s. he conceived
was by no means a fixed one ; it would have a tendency to 655.
in times of scarcity, and whenever the supply was above con-
sumption, that price would inevitably fall. No sooner was the
duty of 20s. imposed on corn, than a falling duty com-
menced also. Suppose, then, that the markets should rise in
consequence of the diminution of corn, foreign corn would
then be introduced. If the price of corn was fixed at 605.,
then the duty would be 20s. ; but if the price was 705., then
the duty would be only Is., thus the importer would gain
19s. in the duty, although he would lose 10s. in the price.-_
The fielder cf corn should not be subject to such a vacillating
and uncertain system. He should be enabled to bring his sup,
ply to market, and sell it at a fair price, without being liable to
such ruinous fluctuations. The Hon. Gentleman then alluded to
the system of averages proposed for asloptien. He objected to
their being taken weekly, and he said that frauds would inevi-
tably occur if such a plan were adopted. If averages were struck
weekly, there would be no possible means of discovering frauds,
which might be practised to an enormous extent. Suppose, for
instance, that there were 600,000 quarters of corn in bond. He
implored the House to consider the temptation which would thus
be afforded to designing persons who might conspire to keep up
the price of corn to 108. beyond what it would otherwise bring,
the consequence of which would be, that they might pocket with
impunity 300,0001. Let it be once considered that such a eon,.
spiracy could exist, and there was no doubt but such a fraud as
that which he had described could easily be practised under a
system of weekly averages, and then the .louse would see the ne-
cessity of interposing, to prevent the adoption of a measure so
pregnant with mischief. He would now refer to the resolution
proposed by the Right Honourable Gentleman, and those which
he had moved by way of amendment, and he would show that
his were not at all inconsistent with the principle which the
Right Hon. Gentleman had laid down. He fully concurred in
the opinion that a fixed duty would be desirable where it could
be established ; but he doubted its applicability to the prices at
which it was proposed to place it. The high prices at which it
became fixed were those which corn rarely attained, and the
low price at which it was again to be fixed, were those to
which it seldom descended. To do away with any ground of
clamour at either side, he would propose, that when corn
rose to 50s. and under 51s. the duty should be 20s. instead
of fixing that duty at 508. as was proposed by the Right Hon.
Gentleman. He would then have duty decreased 2s. for every
Is. which the price rose above 50s. ; and increased 2s. for
every ls. it descended below it ; and whenever the price rose to
555. and did not exceed 655., he would have a fixed duty of 10s.
This, he thought, would go in a great degree:, to remedy the de-
fect in the resolutions of the Right Hon. Gentleman, and would
prevent that great fluctuation of prices against which those reso-
lutions did not sufficiently guard. Supposing wheat to be at 555.
with an import duty of 10e., he would be prepared to contend
that at that price there could be no importation at all injurious to
the British agriculturist. In proof of this position, he would re-
fer the Committee to the Returns of the amount of corn imports
from the year 1775 to 1815, from which it would appear that
in no one year with the price as low as 605., had the quantity of
wheat imported exceeded 600,000 quarters. At higher prices
no doubt the importation was greater, for instance in the years
1800 and 1801, which were years of great scarcity. With the
exception of those years, (his reasons for omitting which would
be evident), it would appear that from the year 1795 to the year
1805, (we believe) with the price at 635., the importation did
not exceed 480,000 quarters. With the experience then of those
-ears before him, he was fully justified in contending, that with
corn at 555. and an import duty of 10s. there could 'not be any
amount of foreign wheat imported which would be injurious to
d'spoborer):antoa,nd .that the fears of those
the British agriculturists ; that all the alarm existing on that
t throwpart
of
I tt
hh
ee poora
argument.
g u aenpcits,
gwlerdhoothmbidneilwiteovoeuadlndoeb:eietfrotuhaenndedffNaecvhrtonloNlys;toiluilmi
out of cultivation, would turn out to be equally unfounded. This
It was said, that if we imported even so small a quantity of
foreign wheat as 600,000 quarters, it would displace so much
British corn, and by that means materially lessen the value
of the whole. This argument was founded on the assumption,
that our own home stock was fully equal to all the demands of
our market. Ile very much doubted that to be the case. True
it was, that since 1820 we had a very slight addition to our
home stock from foreign importation, except what was sonic short
time back let out of bond, and the small quantity which we got
from Canada. But then it should be remembered that we had
up to that time a good stock on hand, which was generally equal
to three months' consumption. Let time Committee consider what
had taken place since 1820. From that year to the year 1823,
the price continued to decline so much so, that almost all who
had speculated in corn from autumn to spring, and from spring to
autumn, lost very considerably. Those losses continued and were
so heavy that at length all speculation ceased; and when it was
announced to be the intention of Government to make an altera-
tion in the corn laws, no person who could get rid of it would
hold corn ; and he believed it would be found that there never was
a smaller quantity on hand than at the present moment. He
should be told that this Was an old story, and that he had said
the same thing in 1825 and 1826. He had said so ; and his
opinion, which was still unaltered on the subject, was, he con-
tended, borne out by the facts. He now repeated what he had
said in 1825 anti 1826, and maintained, that if, unfortunately,
the same system of corn laws, or one approaching to it, were con-
tinued, we should find ourselves in difficulties from which we should
find it very difficult to escape. He knew that his forebodings on
this subject had been laughed at ;butimtlpotourtgahtioitnswfarsomfouctuaincaodna-,
con-
venient to laugh at them on a former occasion, those who did so
were since glad to avail themselves of, and hailed a measure
which added to the home stock, by
and by taking some foreign corn out of bond : and but for that
measure, we should have had occasion to open the ports. Then
if what he said in 1825 and 1826 were true, it was equally so in
1827 ; for though the last harvest was in wheat a fair crop, it
was in other kinds of corn much below an average crop. The
wheat of the last harvest was in a dry state, and sooner fit tOr use
than for several years, and we began our consumption of it much

earlier than usual, and we were now going hard upon our stock.
He did not say this with the view of exciting any alarm ; but he
thought it was best to look at once to the real state in which we
were placed with respect to the amount of our stock on hand. He
would not assert that that stock might not be found sufficient, if
consumption were to proceed upon its present scale ; but if our
trade and manufactures should be so much improved as to increase
that consumption in any great degree, and if the next harvest
should fall even a little below the last, we should find ourselves
in a state which could not be contemplated without considerable
alarm. Should such a state of things arrive, it would be found
that the stock of foreign corn imported at 60s. or 655. would be
hut small, and that it would get as high as '7os. before any quan-
tity came in large enough to give a sensible relief to the market.
He would now say a few words to remove what were urged as
some of the popular objections to the view which he took of this
question. Great alarm, he knew, had been excited in some minds
by the quantity of corn which it was thought might be imported
from Odessa. Great stress, he knew, had been laid upon an as-
sertion that wheat might recently have been purchased, and that it
was, in fact, purchased there at 7s. the quarter. He wouldstate
a few facts connected with this subject. The wheat which was
thus mentioned, was wheat which had been long kept. It was
quite an inferior quality, and totally unfit for the English market.
There was a transaction going on which would show how un-
reasonable were any alarms of the landed interest on the score
of what could be procured from Odessa. One individual (not
one of those who was formerly engaged in the importations of
corn from Odessa, the greater part of which, on its arrival
in this country, had been found wholly unfit for use, and
Was thrown away_ but a person unconnected with the corn
trade, and who had not burnt his fingers in it) had en-
tered int° a speculation to bring corn from the port he had
mentioned. It was purchased there, not at 75., but at 188. the
quarter. The freight from thence (exclusive of insurance) was
generallye 12%, but at the present moment, it would, he believed,
to found not to be less than 15s. the quarter. This brought it
s_3s• To this were to be added the rate of insurance, and the
p_ront of the importer, which he could not state at lees than 71.
the quarter. Indeed, there were some who considered the risk so
Tgreat, that they would not insure such a freight at any price.
hus, then, taking the charges 'he
though of had mentioned, this wheat,
an inferior quality, could not be brought to our shores
at leas than 401. the quarter, to whith was then to be added the
duty This statement would show from practice, and not theory,
that there was not the slightest ground for any alarm as to the
corn which might be imported from that quarter.—(Hear, hear.)
--This, it should be remembered, was the price in Odessa, with-
out the demand of the English market ; but there could be no
oubt, that when it was known that that market was opened, the
price
at Odessa would rise considerably above its present amount,
and, With the increased price, the English grower need have no
alarm
as to the competition. Another popular objection was,
abortb 7a admitting foreign corn to our markets, we should in a
y time be placed in a kind of dependence on the market of a
tteteign state, and that state might withhold from us a supply at
,ne moment when we should mo.t require it. This objection was,
he thiought, altogether without foundation. The great effort of
II that Kind which had ever been made was during the supremacy of
uonaparte. By his anti-commercial regulations, he endeavoured
t° strike at the root of our trade, and particularly to prevent our
fleittiag a supply of foreign corn. But what was the result of
tat attempt ? If they looked to the returns of the imports from the
qaltic (luring the continuance of these restrictions, it would be
uad, that the quantity of foreign corn which reached our shores
411 very considerable—and that a very large part of our supply
'Tia
themfr the ports of France itself.—(Hear, hear.)—He would
Isoe year
1810 fer example ; that year when the Berlin and
When we
illan decrees were enforced with the strictest severity—that year
had to supply an army in the Peninsula, and when it was
an object of the utmost importance to the French Emperor, to
Prevent our obtaining a sufficient supply ; yet in that very year it
was remarkable, that we had imported a very considerable quan-
-1::q Of corn from Flanders, Holland, and France itself—all which
It'el were under tie dominion of Napoleon. From France
e got in that year, 225,710 quarters; from Flanders, 167,154,
:id from Holland, 189,016, making, in the whole, 581,880 quer-
41' from ports under the sway of that individual who had made it
Point to exclude the English from the markets of the Continent,
and "who
8 had endeavoured to cut off the supplies of our army in
Pain•—(Hear, hear. )—He could not give a stronger illustration
ef the utter inability of any Government to prevent a supply of
;nu, when a demand existed for it in another.—(Hear, hear.)—
he were not afraid of fatiguing the House, he would call their
hat he feared he had already:trespassed too far on their indulgence.
'n conclusion, he would implore the landed interest to consider the
titaation in which they were placed. He would implore them to
take cafe how they adopt a principle, which would not be one of
4nion, but of schism and discord between themselves and the
great masa of the people of this country. It was impos§ible to
e!internplate without serious alarm the evils which must result from
au interruption of the good understanding which existed between
the
aristocracy and people of this country. Let him then implore
roe landed gentlemen to look well in time at the evils which must
tolloW from the course which many of them seemed now desirous
e,l4°Pt----a course which, if it did not fail them immediately,
ap-a'at cartainly do so in the result. Let him implore them to en-
4:nut, while there was yet time, to heal the breach which had
•ia'adY commenced, and of which, if farther widened, it would be
IThPnssible to speculate upon the consequences.—(Hear, hear.)—
at 11°u. Member then moved by way of amendment,
roenever the average price of wheat, made up and published in
thee* required by law, shall be 50s. and under 51s. the quarter,
dattY shall be for every quarter IL"
a ,nriginal resolution, which made the same amount of
nlentpPPlY to a price of 605., was then read, and the amend-
Mr ri
that lit:, '''• GRANT rose, but spoke in so low a tone,
coil `"e more than the general import of his remarks could be
'lntbe eiLl the gallery. We understood him to say, that it would
at ,length
for him to occupy the attention of the Committee
t•
4" int He did not feel called upon to follow his Hon.
oiraaltayetia
alto the lengthened detail through which he had gone,. as
Part of his arguments had reference to the question
he (mr`,.,..elY before them. In the general principles, for which
'14,60: "itinore) had. contended, he fully concurred, but. the
In the 6",:ta% how far those principles applied to the ques. non.—
P'esent Place, his Hon. Friend had said, that the effect of the
that I! Place,
d 7 f et,1.,7, as well as of the proposed resolutions, would be
ii-eLeud° th„"`"g a fluctuation of prices. He then proceeded toot.
luarterty- new. mode of striking the averages weekly instead d
entrrat On the ground that i. would be le open to fau an
'nnbioat. k 1" than the old mode. t
He could see no reasonr why the
rwilieta„raber for Bridgenorth should fix upon 50s. as the price
Xv. er ha,, the
affix the duty of 205., inasmuch Ls it was
''`l's collat.; "ne average price of wheat for the last seven years in
A:. 4 th YiLhut he could see a very good reason for fixing upon
ti'entaltleers74t from which the scale of duties should spring, in
Peace Of tikeL°,l that a protecting price ought to cover the ex-1
eym'att than 6- TiL eulturist, and that for the last few years no less a
see n relpito. eLeuld effect that protection. Besides, of late
coed init,,,Z bad been vested in agriculture, which would be
vat." to. rri;", if the Hon. Member's scale of duties were ac-
churl' :
Whi wilight Hon. Gentleman made a few other obser-1
sldirhuy tleeelariZre,,uterly inaudible in the gallery, and con-
the e„ • pA-6,,,,,,it intention to oppose. the amendment.
ti -"achlet v447'41 ELL entered into an explanation of]
reewlito the _
ar.• .I,A
at; v 1011,, ll' '4. pursued since the year 1813, in rela- i
heel', -411 of the -tis. Measureswhich had been proposed for the
1'44% idv°eatein,in corn.. He had been accused of having
tion w' luul road t; "'el prices but he referred to the speeches
send, °untied
that e 418'13 and'lßl4, to prove that wascpm wtt a All which he had then done, to con-
k two corn srauderat .
et, He amcieat to e Protecting duty, Ireland was able to
had felt, r„nwned that hi auPPIY the demand of the British. mar-
..on, ,
principle la
„Lute exte, a.° longer felt the alarm which he once
Arerober'fi, e anould prefsive importation of foreign corn. On
led hini
notetßridg,orth er the amendment proposed by the Hon.h
misters: ' aielill'e diesiitis'6eidnitthere were various reasons which
press his ea', ' erefore tr,
Mr. lardment to .'
•
posed the arne
should with the resolutions proposed by Ml-
st.ed that the Hon. Member would not
DI/1.1,a division.
.
to-ndwit nm;sent of thii:id, hat he had last night op-
The safeet eZu -rl)(4se that otifen,• Member for Dorsetahire, and he
jesty's Minister,
the aPPeared taile Hon. Member for Bridgnorth.
agTictdtural Which ateereen to be that proposed by his Ma-
Colonel
mend the man
1 ABrnE; etyeen the plans of the ultras of
• now i„,.._ , rig classes.
I,:
I:,
fi 3 c
oi i
or
u„
n.r. ow
vo
ursvieesencidbtyh
Ministers,the
...,y contended, that the measure
milbeir4efotiarbturepnendment on it proposed by
cious prit7.4 i ~ were all founded
called a
ridgnorth, and the old system
the growe;Ple,„,nf giving what was
naunerati, !not principle wse
uP°O the erroneous and perni-
remunerating price to
as the count had a moat, rroneous, inasmuch as a re-
eunstantly i. 7inereased itit tendency to advance ; and just
proved t, • ---,easiti then
.Population, it advanced in a ratio
1s a . g pr ee
lir
rateirenc? to the manner in which the
protecting duasertion b..
e„1 at which,. protection began. He
had been p
preferred Pfd in in- led
in every successive corn law that
Bridgaortil: Proposition
°f his
between 1. 774 and 1815. He
closely to ~..t0 that of °n hut Hon. Friend, the Member for
always 114::"At free trade , lusters, because it approximated more
v th
a 41 eurn which the late Mr. Ricardo had
s e I._.
eau for: the" country.. He was sorry that
ik