The Sun.
London, England, 1820-06-02 00:00:00

BRII)PORT ELECTION.

Mr. LEIGH, the Clerk for Elections, appeared at the Bar of
the House, and,tated t hat the following Members had been
chosen by ballot, to furs► t he Co►nalittee fur trying the tuerits
of the Bridport Election -
Marquess of Titchficid, S. Douglas, N. Calvert, E. P. Bas-
tard, S. T. Lloyd, H. Hudson, It. T. Wiln►an, Lord 'l'. Cecil,
Mr. Sibthorpe, Lord F. N. 'Pownshend, Sir Cr. T. Staunton,
T. M. Lloyd, S. Drummond, Davies Gilbert, Lord Viscount
Milton.

Mr. HUME presentt:d Petitions from the Freeholders of
the County cf. Angus and the Boron4ll of ?Montrose, relative
to the linen-manntactnres.—Laid on the table.
Mr. HUME moved for a return of the number of Gentle-
men appoint.ed to Ensigncies in the Line, dist ingukhior; those
appointed oat of Military Colleges, and those who ontpined
them by purchase, from the 26th of January, 1819, to the 26th
of January, 1820.—Ordered.

Mr, MiiitßYATTmOved for separate returns of the real
and of the official -value of the Goods exported from Great
Britain to. Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Russia, and Prussia,
for the last. 20 years, distimzuishing each year, aid the Eng-
lish and Irish• produce from the Colonial produce; al4o for
returns of the uninfier of ships and their complement of men
employed in the said Trade (hiring the same period, and dis-
tingnishior Rritish from foreign vessels.—Ordered.
MARRY: TT then moved for similar Returns re-
specting the Exports hum British Colonies; which were also
ordered.

BOROUGHBR EDGE ELECTION.
Mr. LEIGH appeared at the liar, and stated that the fol.

ion•itts; 11roibei4 ii ail biet; ci.;cseri by ballot to.tri the i;eriti
of this Eltetollt

Mr C Finlay, Sir .T. W. S. tininersley, S.
D. Ashley, Lard H. rt. 1,1. G. A. Lee Kt'ci:
D:incomhe, Sit. W. H. Pi nigh:, HiM. C. A. Pi•Piaiit, F• Caw=
thorn, EB. Portman; R. W. falba, Rdyite, Sir C. W. W.
Wynn.
. .
Mr. COURTNEY moved for ftcturrii it the quantity of
goods exported from Gala Britain to tLe East Indiei and
China, and the number Of ships employed, during the last six
ye:irs.•••••••Ordered.

E.lwar,!s, from the Calr4litin Canal, piek.uted the
•.:
17th Report of the Committee On that Canal.—Laid on the
table.

Mr. 13F:tiNtT mo'ed for an account ot the Annual Ex-
penditure of the Atien Otlice at Dover, YarnrOutli, add other
port, during t he last two years.—Ordered;
Mr. SCARLETT nursed for an Accutnit of the number of
Causes originally entered int he y nose Pa,“:r ot t he Chief .Ins-
tice of thi King's Bench 1.4 r the last len yetis; of those re-:
tnainin,~ hi arrearS at the end of each terns ; of the Rules fur
extending. the time; and rif the number tit Casts remaining
for argument in the same Court.--;-01%leted.
Mr. TIERNEY presented a Petition from an Irish Clergy-
man, called Isaac Milton, praying. (as it Vv.is underst,,od, tor
some remuneration in consequence of service' rendered by
him in the early parl of the French Revolution •-Laid on thu
table, and ordered to be printed.
COURTS OF' JUDICATURE IN WALES.
- -

Mr. F. CAMPBELL., ror,ti.tht tie iiisllol
brought forward his motion on the suhieet or the
‘Vel,ll Jndiestine, In proposing this inqieiry, he
begged to diselaim any intention of attaching
blame to the individn.ls Who at plc:sent consti-
tuted the Welsh Judicature it was the system
cif Width he cotnplained, and not of •those ,who
carried it into effect. The lion Member, then
proceeded:but in a tone for the most pat t inau-
dible in the gallery, ;o take a review of the sys-
tem of Welsh Jurisprudence, as it at pe,ent exist-
ed, and to point out its errors and neficirneies.
Various inconVeniencies ulisted to suitors inWelsh
Courti, and he particularly not iced the faciliti, a
wirfi which offenders could escape by crossing the
borders, now vuly an imaginary line appealing on
the snap, indeed, but no wherk. else. It was true,
causes might betaken front Wales, and tried on au
English Circuit before an English Judge; but if this
was done, there were 2 evils attendant on it, name-
ly,an increased expence and a going from home to
try a cause, both contrary to 'the ' principle
of British Jurispiudehce. Another disadvantage
was, that are Welsh Judges had not the oppor-
tunity, as the English Judges had, of consult ing
frequently together, and thus, as it were, conso-
lidatiug their judgments, by which means confu-
sion on the Circuit and d fference of j-dgment,
opinions, and decisions, which so freq.untly pc.
curred in %Vales, were avoided. It was al,o some-
what singular that 11,e certiorari was never grant-
ed in North, though it was in South IValis. Its
En-gland a party displeased or diisatisfied with the
decision of his cause, Might have the ultimate
opinion of the whole Court to which the Judge
belonged who tried the question--:his could not
be done in Wales. Another disadvantage was,
that attending snits of Equity. There seldom was
more than one Equity C.:otiosel on each Circuit,
and the advantage given to the parry which was so
fortunate as to secure him was obvious. Yet,
with ail these deficiences, and inefficient as the
Welsh Tribunals were, there was no appeal
from them except to the Honse of Peers. lie
passed over the fact of.. the Judges of these
Courts acting as Barristers ; but he must
mention their appointment by the Treasury,
which they obtained by assiduous conduct iu
that House ; and no able lawyer could sacrifice
his character by the degrading means required to
make hint one of these Judges. . He declared that
nothing more challenged the approbation of the
country than the Act of the late King, makir g
the Judges of E''gland independent of the Crown;
but they hail nothing of that kind it Wales, and
the Stature of Henry VIII. which prof,ssed to
make the Welsh equal .to their English brellpren
in point of judicature, was completely evaded.
He wished to know why, when litre were only
twelve Judges for England, there should be eight
tai IVaies ? He should move, it be obtained a
Committee, that the Welsh Judges should nx be
able to have seats in that House, He saw no rea•
6;1 why NValeS should not be put ou the sante
footing with England in point of judicature. Ha
then moved for a Select Cominittee, to inquire
into the state of Courts of Judicature in Wales,
the means by which they might abolish the same,
and to include them in the English Courts of Judi-
cature,

Mr. ‘VARREN defended the Welsh Judges against
the sweeping tirade of the Hon. Gentleman
against -all kVelsh Judges that had existed, did
exist, or might exist, in all time to come. lie
presumed that the Hon. Gentleman had not heard
of Lord Kenyon, Lord Redesdale, Sir J. Mans-
field, Sir Grant, and the present Chief Jos.
Lice of the Common Pleas ; yet the Hon. Gen-
tleman wished the House, on this sweeping 6-
rack, to believe that no one could be a Welsh
.lodge unless he lent himself to the purposes of
the Administration which appointed him. He
trusted he could call on a moiety of both sides of
the House, to say whether he had not been
employed by them at one time .or other ; he
surely then was neither ignorant or obscure.—
The motion was to get rid of the Welsh Jidges
altogether, in order to assimilate the jutispro-
, dence of Wales to that of England. In
1817, a Comir,ittee was.. moved for by Mr.
Ponsonby, which expressly said, that the Welch
Judges should not be abolished ; but they pointed
out all the defects mentioned by the Honourable
Member, and therefore the whole suhj,,ct had
already been before the House. But that Com-
mittee admi!ted, that thmigh the system had s,me
imperfections, yet it had flinch to recommend it,
in consequence of the quickness and cheapness
with which justice was there adininisered.
That,Committee anticipated all the imnerfeetinos
which the Hon. 'Gentleman had mentioned. He
had himself intended to hAye given notice of a
motion for leave to hying to a 13111 to remedy
these defects, had it not been that the Hon. Gen-
tleman gave his notice first. The Honourable
Gentleman could. state nothing into whir:h the
last Comniit tee had not inquired ; and where was
:hen tie necessity for tie 01)point:tient co-another
Committee, which must come to a. similar eon.
elusion with the first i instead of the people of
Wales not looking op with respect to their
cat ire, a Petition had lately been presented from
Carmarthen, praying that the defects admi•ted
should be amended. This Teri ion might be re-
ferred to a Committee, and' it the Hon. Member
ssed his motion to a division, he would not
oppose it, If he were supposed to have accepted

lite place for money, he shonld as it the Noble
reel (C,Astlereaoo to allow him to accept the
Chiltern Hundreds, and send him to the Cont-
mittees up stairs, where he would undertake to
mate, in a very short time, that which would
ptirchase a moiety of the fee simple of the situa-
tion of a Welsh Judge.
Mr. Ceeevev said. his Hon. and Learned Friend
(Warree), had furnished the best proof that the
Welsh Judges were appointed for political pur-
poses; for they hail never been of the same poli-
tical principles, for he hal long, until lately, gone
tither titan ever he lavigh.)
Lor;i J. ReSSFLL said, he bad seen iu a Paper
eevoted to Motivoels, a speech at tribnted to
him, which he never delivered ; stating, that he
!tad said the Welsh Jhdges were always ready
to suitor! the unconstitutional measves of
Alinisteitt. • He had said that a Welsh Judge-
ship was made the stepping•stone to the Office of
At toroey and Solicitor General ; and all that he had
seen in his time, warranted him itt saying so. He
Loped the I lon. Gentleman hail taken the office
of Chief Justice of Chester for an accession of
character, and he believed he had ; and if he felt
now more comfortably, or could hold his head
higher in society than ever before, he wished him
joy Of it with all his heart.
Mr. W. Wv NN regretted these personalities on
built sides. As to the Committee of 1817 on this
suivieet, if was so thinly attended, that the ques-
tion was never entirely discussed. Still he felt
considerable difficnity cvj b respect to the present.
motion ; and arty change in the Welsh Judicature
must be made with reference to the question of
expediting tie judicial business of the whole na-
tion. some relief might be afforded by prevent•
log the Welsh Judges front acting as Barristers.
iod,r all the e,rentitstances, he could wish that
the Committee of 1817 should be revived.
Colonel \VOOO was a Member of the Committee
in 1817, at which time the Chairman (Mr. Pon.
souby) ri as mach prejudiced against the Welsh Jo-
-dicature ; but before the Committee had finished
its kbours, ins opinion was changed, and be
thought live \Velsh Judges could nor be done
away. Mt . Owen was 'ale only evidence on that
Committee who proposed-to get rid of the kVelsh
Judic•oure altogether. If this was done, a very
heavy expense would fall on the Welsh counties
gar oew Courts. Mr. Jones brought in a Bill to
3,entedy all the evils which had been mentioned in
the Helton Of 18:7 ; hot the House was proro•
tried befute the .1;111 was perfected. No Welsh
vyirnesses would answer in English ; they were,
therefore, not 'yet ripe for ail assimilation to the
Ettf4lish mode of Judicature ; anti he was sure
sildt ail alteration would produce great discontent
lu '..Vales.
WeoTTesenY said, that every opportunity
given in the Cominit tee of 1817 for hearing
evidence on ail sides on this subject. The im-
pression on 163 nand was, that Mr. Ponsonhy
thought it would be improper to abolish the
Welsh Jedicature altogethe'r:
Mr. CHETwNND expressed his surprise, that a
lyelsh Judge should rise in that House, and de-
t the mode of his own appointment. The
Scotch Barons were not allowed to sit in the

House , and why street(' - the Wel.h Judges 1
it appeared extremely wrong that a person should
sit as a Legislator, and also as a Judge.
Mr. ALLEN contended that the cheapness and
celerity of the administration of justice in Wales
were counterbalanced by the inconvenience tois-
log from the facilities given to litigation. Be-
sides, it was a very unfair way to estimate the
excellence of jurisprudence by the cheapness with ,
which it was obtaitted. He therefore claimed for i
his countrymen a participation in toe jerispru-
&lice of England. They could never have a fair
administration of Justice with inferior Judges,
Barristers, and Attornies. The best way would
be to take the Southern Counties of the Oxford
Circuit, and connect them with South \Veles ;
and the Northern Counties of it with North
Wales. In this way they would be able to secure
a more respectable Bar than at present. The
cheapness and the number of Attornies were the
great causes of liti;.ettion in ‘Vales. He there-
foie supported the motion. He believed that Mi-
nisters were perfectly ready to give up the pa-
tronage of the Welsh Jedge-ships, it it should
be found necessary for the due administration of
justice.
Lord CASTLEREAGH said, the Hon. Gentleman
had done his Majesty's Ministers DO more than
justice. He had entered the House with an 3pi-
uion that the Report of 1817 was perfectly satis-
fac ury ; but he had since learned that, owing to
the (leech of the Right Hon. Chairman of that
Commit:ee (Mt. Ponsonhy) that Report was not
BO deliberately considered as might have been
wished. It might he desirable to revive that Com-
mittee ; but the Hon. Mil-libel's motion went too
far, as it almost called upon the Home to pro-
nounce at once the extinction of the Welsh Judi-
cature; a measure- directly hostile to the Report
of the former Committee, and the whole holy of
the evidence on which it was founded. He felt a
desire to inquire into this subject still farther ; but
without prejudice to the existing Judicature of that
cosier; y. He was therefore convinced that the Hon.
Mover would not wish to adhere to the express
words of his motion. The Committee, if revived,
might go into a more extensive inquiry than the
last ; amid he mild wish that the report of that
Committee should be-referred to the new one. He
thew moved an emendment, that a Committee be
appuinted simply to inquire into the present state
of Judicature Wales. He protested against
that mode of ergement, that men were less trust-
worthy because they had otficcs conferred on them,
which they mould be enabled to distinguish
them in their prof:tssionalchatacter. He defend-
ed Mr. \Verse.t from the imprudence and inacen-
rary of the statements made against him, for hav-
ing changed from one side to the other or.that
Wiese. - He always liked to see men look at pass-
ing events —(Hear, hear t.)—No man had been
held in hietier estimation than his Honourable and
leeerned kriend.
;l1 r. BA DP AM did not triSli to prolong the debate;
b,), he w,,s bound to declare that he hail a different
onieion as to the PCntltttenta entertained by Mr.
esoshy, with respect to the tentedy to be ap-
r4e Welsh Judicature. One day he asked
:sotery what he thought he'd best be done
L • ,eirittlee. His reply was ittuarkable—

" tTpon my word Illon't know; there are dirri-
enities both ways ; but 1 think the best thing you
can do will be to get into the great boat," mean-
ing, that they should assimilate the jurisprudence of
both countries. The opinion of Mr. P. was, that
the appoiwrnents of the Welch Judges were noto•
rioutly corrupt. He stated the case of an Attorney,
who asked a ‘Velsh Judge once how he could give
an opinion 'as a Judge contrary to' that lie had
given as a Counsel, and take the King's money,
and the pat ties' too ? This clearly showed that the
opinion of the Welsh Judges might be obtained
on cases which they might have after‘vards to de-
cide. He agreed'in the amendment of the Noble
Lord.
Colonel WooD and Mr. W. WY NN explained,
as did Lord CASTLEREAGH. .

Mr. B. BATntinsT defended the Welsh Judges.,
A sorpo,ititions case might be put to a man on
which he might afterward be called to judge.
The Welsh Judge alluded to was one of the most.
honourable and learned men in the Court of Chan-
cery in kis thy.
The CHANCELLOR Of the EXCHEQUER said, that
from early recollections he could say, that unless
the Welsh Bench and Bar were much changed
within the last-20 years, they were both entitled
to the highest respect. He had himself practised
there under,Lord Redesdale, Lora Manners, and
Sir W. Grant.
Mr. W• PARNELL WAS sorry to have beard any
slur cast on his friend the Chief Justice of Cites-
.ter, who could r.ot be actuated by any base mo-
tive, but only by a justifiable love of power—
(a latiti)—ot doing good to his corn ry.
\lr. R. MARTIN said, the Hon. and Le3rned
Judge of Chester had never belied an opinion he
had given on the other side,ot the House, for he
believed he never sat on that side. A- to a ellnlige,l
Of opinion, he would ask the Learned Q,lten's
Solicitor General, if peradventure he should be
elevated to the Bench, he would like to have his
opinions given in that House brought against hitt)
on the Bench.

Mr. DartmAn said, he had no fear that any
c•pinion he had ever delivered could he bro.ight in
judgment against him, in whatever situation- he
might alti,rwiaids be placed.
Mr. CANinstiLL replied. lie denied that lie had
accused all the IVtisit Judpes of being con Opt or
ignorant. He than whhdreN the- original mo-
tion, and acceded to the Amendment of Lord Cas-
tlereagh.
The Amendment was then agreed to without
a division, and a Select Committee appointed ac-
cordingly.
LABOURERS' WAGES.
Mr. LYTTLETON rose to move for leave to bring
in a Bill for the payintint of Labourers' Wages in
Money. He should propose to take a'vay. the
appeal to. the Quarter Sessions, as a' poor man
would have occasion to travel many miles with
his witnesses. But some good must be sacrificed,
as some individuals supplied their workmen,. wlft
goods at a lOwer tate than the market price. Lie
then moved that leave be given to bring in a Bill
to secure to Workmen more effectually the. Pay-
ment of their CVtges.
Sir .1. MACKIN'T'OSH thought that all restrictions should
be taken oil from payment of labourers. He should oppose
the motion.
Mr. F. ROBINSON said, though he sbonld not oppose the
Bill, he-would not pledge himself to its support.
Mr. WROTTESLEY took the same side,
Col. WOOD hoped the measure would not I! hurried.
Mr. HUME stated that the present law was evaded, and
would hate been better pleasi-dthatt the exisi mg Act been re-
pealed ; and that master and labourer sluaild be put on the
same footing.
Mr. BARING said, that the remedy consisted in the repeal
of the existing Laws, and not in their enforetment. He
wished a Committee had been moved, for perfect freedom
should be left both to master and servant.•
Mr. uTTLEToN replied aunt said, the laws in force were
meant for the protection of the- honest workinati. In the
Nail Trade in Staffordshirt and Worcestershire, some masters
did not pay in money, hut in a depreciated rate of goods.
Should the House be adverse to the Bill he had nu objection
to a Committee.
Mr. W. thought that a Committee would answer
the purpose of the Mover better than a 13111,—Leave was then
given to bring in the Bill.

BANK BALANCES.
Mr. GRENFELL should defer his observations on
the subject to a future 6pportbuity, on account of
the business about to come before the House.
He then moved for a variety of accounts betwixt
she Bank and the Government, similar to those
moved for on former occasions, which were or-
dered.