The Sun.
London, England, 1845-02-18 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMEN T.
HOUSE OF LORDS, Feb. 17.
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Wool-
sack at five Minutes past five o'clock.
ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE.
Lord CAMPBELL laid on the table a Bill for the
improvement of the administration of justice in Scot-
land in cases *where parties got into debt and then re-
moved from the jurisdiction of the law in this country.
He was happy to say that the Bill had been drawn
by his Right lion Friend the Lord Advocate of
Scotland.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord also laid
on the table a similar Bill with respect to Scotland.
The Earl of STRADBROKE presented .a
petition
from the medical practitioners of Suffolk against the
Medical Reform Bill.
Lord BE A.UMONT laid on the table of the House
a Bill for giving compensation to the friends of per-
sons killed by accident.

House would not consent to an increase of the navy.
SALE OF LIQUORS ON SUNDAY.
Mr. BRIGIIT presented petitions fron Carnarvon,
and other places, against the sale of liquors on the
Sabbath.

the stock of the Company had risen to a most unac-
countable height in a very short time, but what was
the cause of it he could not tell.
The 'Earl of DALHOUSIE stated that the scheme
had been laid before the House last year, and if any
objections were to be made, what he s: id was, that
they might have been made then • bat he did not
mean by that to preclude his Noble' Friend from
taking the objection at any time he thought proper.
Lord CAMPBELL gave the Noble Earl credit for
the very excellent qualities he had brought to the con-
sideration of the important subjects laid before the
Board of which he was the bead ' • but at the same
time he (Lord Campbell) believed that that Board
was altogether incompetent to decide upon those
questions. As well might twelve drunken porters
meet and give their opinions on the convenience of
one scheme, or the inutility of another of
the schemes brought forward, with respect to rail-
ways. This Committee of the Board of Trade for the
consideration of railway questions had no authority
from Parliament, and no existence in common law ;
and it was, therefore, impossible that their decisions
could be respected in the country. They examined
no witnesses, and yet they decided upon questions of
such paramount importance. True, the Noble Earl
said that they examined written evidence. That he
(Lord Campbell) supposed meant the state-
ments of the parties themselves, who felt it their
interest to make out the most plausible case
to advance their individual interests. If such
were their mode of coming to a decision, how
could they asssist Parliament in their deliberations,
if their decisions were come to without hearing evi-
dence ? These decisions must be conclusive or not.
He thought that some other mode should be found
by which the Board should arrive at their decisions.
A division in the Board would not shake his faith in
their decisions. . On the contrary, be thought this
would entitle them to greater weight. He would
suggest whether it would not be better to consider
how this Board could be improved, in order to ensure
it the confidence of the public.
Lord STRANGFORD said that one of his Noble
and Learned Friends stated that the decisions of the
Board would be influential, while the other Noble
and Learned Lord declared that it would have no in•
fluence of any kind. He (Lord Strangford) was quite
at a loss to reconcile these two things.
Lord WIIARNCLIFFE said that anyone would
suppose, from what had fallen from Noble Lords
opposite, that some particular and private object was
to be gained to the Government by the establishment
of this Board. What were the facts? The House of
Commons, finding that they were placed in a diffi-
culty by the multitude of these railways coming be-
fore them, appointed this Board to enter into an exa-
mination of the schemes, in order to relieve the House
of Commons from some cf this difficulty. This was not
done in a hurry, but after the most mature delberation.
All the Board had to do was to assist the House of
Commons, by sifting the claims of the several parties
before they went before the Committees of Parlia-
ment. It was even suggested, after the Board had
got through three-fourths of their labour, that an al-
teration in the mode of their proceeding should take
place. He could not suppose that his Noble and
Learned Friend had made this suggestion on due
consideration. Let them see during this year the
effect of the working of the Board, and then, if im-
provements were found to be necessary, they could
be made.
Lord'BROUGHAM (holding a large blue book
in his hand) _rose and said, he would ask whether he
was liable to the reflection which had been cast upon
him, that, although he objected to the constitution of
the soard now, he did not do so last year, when it
was appointed ? He held in his band the report of
the Select Coinmittee on Railways. At page 15 of
that report, it was stated that the Board should be
appointed, "firstly,lto afford additional aid in elucida-
tion of facts by the testimony of witnesses c3mpetent
by knowledge and habits and opportunity, and offi-
cially responsible." It turned out, however, that
•these witnesses were not witnesses but judges. The
report went on to state that the particular judgment
of the Committee was not.to prejudice the claims of pri-
vate persons, the examination of which was altogether
to be reserved for the Legislature. He could only
say that last year had he read this report, be never
would have expected that it would have led to a
course of proceeding such as that which had taken
place. The subject then dropped.
PENAL LAWS AFFECTING ROMAN
CATHOLICS.
Lord BEAUMONT rose to put a question to the
Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack, on the
subject of the penal laws which still effected the
Roman Catholics. He was of opinion that the
time had arrived' when all Acts which involved pains
and penalties for religion's sake ought to be re-
pealed. The Roman Catholics dick not expect that
those Acts which only imposed disabilities as safe-
guards to the Established Church would he dealt I
with. Again, with regard to one Act he begged to
make particular allusion, and that was the 13th of
Elizabeth, chap. 2. He had been told by the Noble
1 and Learned Lord on the Woolsack, that this Act
had been repealed by a subsequent Act. It appeared
that a portion of this Act had been repealed by the
Custorna Duties Consolidation Act.—(Laughter.)
Any person introducing an Agnes Dei, or beads, or
anything of that sort, was, before the passing of the
Customs Consolidation Act, liable to penalties. At
present those articles could he introduced at two per
cent, ad valorent. Bat any person at preient re-
ceiving from the Court of Rome a letter or document,
even though it should inculcate abstinence from agi-
tation, or call upon the priests to abstain from inter-
ference, with politics—or any person receiving a re-
script of that letter or document, and publishing it,
was hell guilty of high treason by the 13th of Eliza-
beth. Ile thought that while the law stood in this
position a change was required.
The LORD CHANCELLOR—In the first place
he begged leave to remind their Lordships that in the
last session of Parliament he stated that he intended
to extend the law re'orms which he then commenced.
He had referred the subject to the Common-law Com-
missioners, and they were now considering-the whole
matter. He had recommended her Majesty to add to
the Commission the names of Sir Edward Ryan, Mr.
Amos, and Mr. Richards ; and, founded upon the re-
port of the Commissioners, a draft Bill would be pre-
pared, which he should submit to their Lordships at
e earliest opportunity.
Their Lordships then adjourned.

NOTICES OF MOTION.
Mr. M. GIBSON gave notice that, in Committee
of Ways and Means, he should move an amendment
to the motion of the Right Honourable Gentleman
at the head of the Government, that no alteration in
the sugar duties will be satisfactory or permanent
which does rot involve the equalization of duty on
foreign and colonial sugar.
INCOME-TAX.
Mr. ROEBUCK gave notice that he should move
an amendment to the resolution for the renewal of
the income-tax ;to leave out the words, " professions,
trades, and offices."--(Cheers.)
TRANSFER OF REAL PROPERTY
(SCOTLAND).
Mr. WALLACE wished to ask the Lord Advo-
cate when he intended to introduce his Bill for
the purpose of facilitating the transfer of general
property in Scotland ?
The LORD ADVOCATE said the Bill had been
for some time under the consideration of the Govern-
ment, and he hoped to introduce it before the recess.
Mr. WALLACE wished al io to know when it was
likely the decision, with respect to the Weights and
Measures Acts in Scotland, would be given ?
The LORD ADVOCATE could not exactly say
that he thought it would be before the Courts in
Scotland rose.
DUTY ON SPIRITS.
Lord SANDON presented a petition from certain
inhabitants in British Guiana, praying that molasses
might be allowed to be used in breweries in Great
Britain and Ireland, and praying that the duty on
rum might be equalised with British spirits, and that
the restrictions on sugar might be removed, so that
the petitioners might have an even supply from fo-
reign States.
THE SUGAR DUTIES.
Mr. HASTIE wished to know from the Right Hon.
Gentleman, the First Lord of the Treasury, whether
it was his intention, under the new Sugar Act, to
admit West India sugar in the same class of sugar
in which it had heretofore been admitted, namely, as
Muscovado sugar ? There were 70,000 tons expected
from the West Indies—of these 50,000 would be
clayed, so that it was important to know what was
the precise intention of the Government.
Sir R. PEEL said he had stated they meant to
make a difference between Muscovado sugar and
white and clayed sugar ; but he thought it better to
postpone all discussion on the subject till the sugar
duties were brought before the House.
Mr. GIBSON wished to ask the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman whether, in classifying sugars into clayed and
Muscovado, and fixing the different rates of duty, he
contemplated the adoption of the ad valorem principle
of duty, and whether he meant, that the higher rate
of duty should always apply to sugar of the greatest

RAILWAYS.
Lard BROUGHAM, seeing the Noble Lord at
the head of the Board of Trade in bis place,
wished to know whether he had any objection to lay
on the table the returns he had moved for with re-
spect to the Railway Board?
The Earl of DALHOUSIE hai no objection to
the production of the returns. With respect to the
case of Mr. O'Brien, he could assure the Noble Lord
that the assertions that had been made were totally
without foundation.
Lord BROUGHAM had found that the informa-
tion he had received was perfectly correct. Mr. W.
O'Brien had purchased 204 shares in the South-
Eastern Railway stock on the 14th of December,
and by the rule that had been laid down, when per-
sons made purchases, and the broker could not furnish
the whole he had undertaken to do, an advertisement
was issued, and that was placarded about, stating the
shares that were required. The consequence was
that Mr. O'Brien's name was placarded for 204 shares;
that, therefore, gave the public the first idea of the
matter. The instant his (Mr. O'Brien's) name ap-
peared, the shares in that railway mounted up, be-
cause he had purchased these -204 shares. If he
(Lord Brougham) or other Noble Lords had pur-
chased them, such might not have been the case ; but
it was different with Mr. O'Brien. He (Lord
Brougham) had not before heard a word upon the
subject, but his suspicions had been aroused—he had
thought such a thing likely to happen, and those sus-
picions turned out to be the actual fact. The Board
of Trade, in coming to the resolutions which they
afterwards reported, did so more or less in
the dark. Then these reports were laid before
Parliament—that was to assist Parliament ; but
how could they assist Parliament, having founded
their opinions upon mere party statements—the state-
ments of the parties concerned. Why, they might as
well believe in so many fables. Then came the de-
feated men, and said—" We have collected a cloud
,of evidence, and we will go before a Committee of
the House of Commons." But he (Lord Brougham)
said they were too late, the decision had been against
them, and it would be found that, in 99 cases out of
100, than decision was final. A Noble Lord (Lord
Stanley) said that that decision was not binding upon
the House, but that they agreed to it because
it was a true one. But suppose that his Noble
Friend upon the Woolsack, who was so conversant
with the business of the Court of Chancery, could
conceive of a Board of Masters who would decide
. between parties without hearing evidence, would not
such a mode of deciding rival claims be searching in
the dark—groping in the dark ? But then supposing
that they reported in favour of one of these parties—
The LORD CH A.NCELLOR—I should accept
the report.—(Laughter.)
Lord BROUGHAM—Very likeiy.—(Continued
laughter.) But seriously, he thought this one of the
greatest interferences with private interests, and with
the commerce of the country. There were
millions, and tens of millions invested in
these questions, and continually changing hands.
Men might say, " I have 17,0001. in a line reported
against"—another might say, " I have but
10,000/. ;" and all this by a report emanat-
ing from a board which heard no evidence.
He wondered whether it was true that the North
Kent line had been rejected upon the narrowest pos-
_sible majority—whether General Pasley and Mr.
Porter were against the South-Eastern line, and Mr.
Laing and his Noble Friend the other way. Mr.
O'Brien, he understood, did not vote : consequently,
there were two for and two against. Mr. O'Brien,
however, was- present, although he took no part in
the proceedings. • Generally speaking, the mode of
• not taking any part in any proceedings was to
he absent ; such, however, was not the case with
Mr. O'Brien. As the Committee were equally
divided, his Noble Friend had to give the casting
vote—consequently there were three to two, although
with respect to persons there were only two to two.
His Noble Friend was no greater in authority after
giving two votes than he' was after giving but one.
When these things were communicated to him (Lord
Brougham) his first expression was, " Of course
this will be made known to the House of Commons—
of course, the kind of help or auxiliary process which
had been afforded will be made known to them." Mr.
Cardwell, who aas now a Member of the Govern-
. ment, was strongly in favour of large powers being
given to the Board; hat he distinctly stated
t bet the Board ought not to come to
any decision without examining evidence.
According to my Noble and Learned Friend's own
statement, he admits that the matter is of infinite
importance. But he had received such numberless
communications, complaining of the hardships they
had suffered in consequence of these decisions, that,
unless his-opinion was changed by the inf,rmation he
should receive, he should feel it to be his bounden
duty to bring a motion before their Lordships, with
the intention of having the whole of these reports
fully discussed.
The Earl of DALHOUSIE said, with respect to
the question put by his Noble and Learned Friend
in regard to the number of shares Feld
by Mr. William O'Brien, he dii not know whether
that Gentleman expected him to answer it. It was no
business of his, and he should postpone anything. he
. had to say 0:1 the subject until the Noble and Learned
Lord brought forward his promised motion. But,
with respect to the defence of any particular member
of the Board to which he belonged, he should, on
every occasion, stand forward for the purpose of
placing the facts in their proper light, and refuting
any • statements which were not founded in truth.
With respect to the other question, viz., that his
Noble end Learned iend had learned by inforrna-
. lion that the South-Eastern scheme was decided this
way the only answer he could give was this—his
Noble and Learned Friend had wondered if his in -
formation was really fact,. and it was his duty to leave
the Noble and Learned Lord to wonder on.
Lord BROUGHAM—I don't wonder now ; I am
perfectly satisfied.
The Earl of D ALIIOU SI E—The Board of Trade was
founded upon similar arrangements as those made by
other Boards. A person was placed at its head by Parlia-
ment, to whom this person was parliamentaeily re-
sponsible. Would any Noble Lord be justified in
asking a question relative to the decision of the Board
of Admiralty, or the Board of Customs ? Would
any Noble Lord be justified in asking how this
Honourable Member voted, and that Honourable
Member voted ? Certainly not ; and upon the
same principle he was justified in allowing the Noble
Lord still to wonder on. His Noble and Learned
Friend hart made some observations on the subject of
the foundation of. this Board. Now, his Noble and
Learned Friend would excuse him while he
stated how this Board was originally esta-
blished. The question was raised before the other
House of Parliament, and after being fully discussed
in a Committee, it was resolved that railway Bills
should be subject to the examination of a Government
Board ; that this duty should be entrusted to the
Board of Trade, who should have power to establish a
railway department. With respect to the proceedings
.of the Board, unquestionably there were no wit-
nesses examined; but there was other kind of
evidence. Documentary evidence was brought before
them, and upon this evidence they had decided. He
repeated, their decisions were not to be final, and
their influence would, of course, have to depend upon
their intrinsic merits. He thought, then, it was un-
just to condemn the decisions at that early period.
They ought to have a fair trial, and it was necessary
that,e the report of the Board of Trade should
considered before this fair trial could be had.
IA he the Noble and Learned Lord brought for-
ward the question with respect to the constitution of
the Board, he "
any informatmiosuns
should be happy to meet him, and give
he might require ;but, at the present
moment, he decline, upon the grounds of public
convenience, answering
the internal arrangeregethe questions with respect to
The Duke of WELnlesioNf the Board itself.
G/"ON wished to say one
word with respect to
pre9.nute7, as reports had
bein circulated to his He had had an
opportunity of knowing that gentleman. Ile had
served in a most honourable way in
impossible for
he
was respected by all ; and it was im
. gentleman to stand higher in the service sithaenfor any
had
done. He (the Duke of Wellington) believed ile
that
• his conduct had been
gentlemanly throughout'
that he was quite incompetent to commit the ant
that had been laid to his charge.
Lord BROUGHAM never meant to throw the
slightest imputation on Capt. O'Brien or his brother.
All he complained of was, the nature of the system
and its defective construction. He believed that the
information. be had received was correct. As
to what passed in the House of Lords last
year, he had never heard of it till the
present Moment.' His Noble Friend had said why not
take an objection to the matter at that time ? Why,
the truth was, that he had never heard of it, or he
certainly should have taken the objection. He did
not think that anything in . the proceedings that had
taken place in the Board of Trade had arisen from
reading the moxts. There could be no doubt that

value ?
Sir R. PEEL said that, assuming clay sugar gene
rally to be more valuable than Muscovado, that would
be the effect of the arrangement.
Mr. LABOUCHERE wished to know from the
Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) for what period
he intended to propose the continuance of the new
sugar duties ?
Sir R. PEEL said that in making so great a
change as that which he had proposed, he was not
prepared to advise that the new sugar duties, sup-
posing they were passed by Parliament, should be
continued beyond the sth of July, 1846.
Mr. EWART moved for a return of the- quantity
of butter destroyed in bond in Liverpool during the
past year.—Granted.
PRINCE ALBERT.
Mr. BORTIIWICK wished to ask the Right
Hon. Baronet, the First Lord of the Treasury,
whether there was any truth in a rumour which had
appeared in the Morning Post and other newspapers.
The rumour itself was one upon which he did not ask
for any information, because it was sufficiently absurd
to contradict itself. The statement was :—" It is
rumoured, and, we believe, on good authority,
that the title of King Consort is about to be
bestowed on his Royal Highness ' Prince Al-
bert. This, we believe, is preliminary to apply-
ing to Parliament to increase the present grant."
He wished to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman the
question simply to afford him an opportunity of con-
tradicting a rumour, mischievous, absurd, and pre-
posterous in itself, but calculated to do very serious
injury to the object of all their loyalty and affection ?
Sir R. PEEL said it was not a good practice for
Hon. Members to ask for explanations from the Go-
vernment of newspaper reports, particularly when an
Hon. Gentleman found a rumour that was sufficiently
absurd—(Great laughter)—to be its own contradic-
tion, and wanted no explanation from him.
It was rather hard in that particular case that
the Hon. Gentleman should submit him (Sir R.
Peel) to the ordeal of answering it. However, he
must leave it to the decision of llonourable Gentle-
men themselves to ask such questions or to refrain
from asking them, because he knew that inferences
were sometimes drawn from silence. On the whole,
perhaps, on the present occasion silence would be the
best; but, to guard against the possibility of any
erroneous inference, he would state, for the informa•
tion of the Hon. Gentleman, that that paragraph was
totally without foundation.—(hear, hear.)
RAILWAY COMMITTEE.
Lord HOWICK wished to put a question with
respect to the railway department of the Board of
Trade. He observed that all the reports of that Com-
mittee were signed by all the five members of it.
Now, he wished to know if, from that circumstance,
they were to infer that ail those five gentlemen sign-
ing that report concurred in it, and whether they
were all of the same opinion? This question was of
considerable importance, because, as it was now de-
termined that those reports were not to be conclusive,
but only to be binding so far as they were consistent
with reason, it of course had a very material differ-
ence in their authority, whether a ey were the
unanimous opinion of those five gentlemen, or
whether they were approved only by two or
three of them. It struck him that, in a
vast number of railivay projects, it was almost im-
possible to find five gentlemen of the same opinion;
and, in point of fact, with respect to one of them, at-
least, it was not so, for one of the five gentlemen did
not vote; the other four were equally divided;
and the question was finally decided by the Chair-
man of the Committee giving his casting vete. He
hop; d the Right Hon. Baronet would have no objec-
tion to state what was the fact, whether the gentle-
men signing the report all concurred in such an opi-
nion or not. He should also like to ask whether it
was the intention of the Board of Trade to
lay before the House, as an appendix to their
report, the statements of the competing
companies, on which their reports were founded ?
It was of great importance that the House should
possess the statement of each company, and the
documents which they had laid before the Board of
Trade, upon which the reports of that Board had
been founded.
Sir GEORGE CLERK said that with regard to
the first question, he believed, there was no precedent
for it. He believed that when a report was made by
any public Board, that report was to be taken as
the act of the Board collectively. It was the first
time that any question had ever been asked as to
what discussions had taken place at the Board, and
he must decline giving any answer, because, if he
were to do so, it would be establishing a dangerous
and inconvenient precedent, and he trusted that
neither the Noble Lord nor the House would draw
any inference from his silence.—(Cheers and
laughter.) With regard to the second question, he had
to state that the Board of Trade had no intention
of laying before the House the voluminous statements
which had been submitted to them by the various
parties to railway schemes. He believed there would
be no objection to laying those statements before the
House if the Noble Lord should think them. necessary.
But in the future progress of those schemes no doubt
the parties interested would lay before the Committee
of that Board all the statements they had to make,
either in recommendation of their own schemes
or in opposition to the schemes of their rivals ; and
the only objection he had for laying the papers before
the House was, that they were very voluminous, and
would take a long time to copy.
Mr. ROEBUCK begged to observe, with regard
to the first question put by the Noble Lord, that a
statement had been distinctly made that certain mem-
bers of the Board had voted, and their names had
been mentioned.—(Hear, hear, from Lord Howick.)
It had been stated that a casting vote had been given
by the head of the Board of Trade.—(Hear, hear,
from Lord Howick.) If a casting vote had been
given,-there must have been an equal division of the
persons voting, as no person possessed two votes.
All the parties, therefore, must have voted. This led
to a most important conclusion.—(Hear, hear.) Now,
in such a state of things it would not do, now-a-days,
to, shut out investigation.—(Hear.) They must
know all and everything.—(Hear, hear.) If not
suspicion would rest upon those who shut out the
light---(Hear, hear)—and, if so, such a tribunal
would not be a satisfactory one for the guidance of
Parliament, and he believed that Parliament would
utterly discard the recommendations emanating from
such a tribunal, and would proceed with their inves-
tigation as if no such reports had been made.
Mr. WALLACE was not aware that the Noble
Lord intended to put any such question, but
he had come down to the House with a
notice in his pocket.—(A laugh.) The first
report of the Board of Trade had been printed,
and he now gave notice that he intended to
move that there should be laid on the table of the
heloeuustietmaallu uatheasaiddocuments that this was an unprecedented

HOUSE OF COMMO.NS, Feb. 17.
The SPEIKEIL took the Chair at the usual hour.
Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT, 1116 new Secretary-at-War,
:cok the oaths and his seat for South Wiltshire.
THE MALT-TAX.
Mr. TUITE presented thirteen petitions, praying
for the repeal of the malt-tax.
IMPRISONMENT FOR DEBT.
Mr. BROAD LEY presented petitions from places
in Yorkshire, praying for the repeal of the A:!t of the
7th and Bth Victoria, doing away with imprisonment
for debt in certain cases.
THE MEDICAL REFORM BILL.
Sir J. TROLLOPE presented petitions, signed
by all the re-pectable medical practitioners in the
towns of Spalding end Holbeach, in LincolnAlire,
against the Medical Reform Bill, and praying
the House to afford them that adequate protection to
which they were entitled from the time and expense
required for, their education.
• THE CALEDONIAN RAILWAY.
Mr. HOPE JOHNSTONE presented petitions
from various places (one of them signed by 500 of
the leading firms in Glasgow), in favour of the Cale-
donian Railway Bill.
PAPER- STAIN E RS.
Mr. MACAULAY presented a petition from a
large to ly of paper-stainers, complaining of the pre-
sent state of the law with regard to the manufacture
of paper and the importation of foreign ornamental
paper.

CURRENCY.

The How. MEMBER also presented two petitions
against any alteration in the currency of Scotland.
CHARITABLE BEQUESTS ACT.

.., ..,
Sergeant MURPHY presented a petition from the
inhabitants of the city of Cork, adopted at a large
meeting, and signed by several thousands, praying for
the repeal of the Charitable Bequests Act.
POST-OFFICE ESPIONAGE.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE presented a petition from
Capt. Stalbey and another, complaining of the unsa-
tisfactory state of the report of the Secret Committee
appointed last year to inquire into this subject. These
two gentlemen had had their letters opened ; and, in
the event of the House appointing another Committee
to inquire further into the matter, they prayed the
House to allow them to be heard before that Com-
mittee, inasmuch as imputations had been cast upon
them in the former Committee, and no opportunity
hail been afforded them for vindicating their cha-
rac'ers. The Hon. Member intimated that to-morrow
he-would move that this petition be printed with the
Votes at the same time that, according to notice, he
would bring under the consideration of the House
the unsatisfactory and evasive character of the report
made by the late Secret Committee.
The lion. MEMBER also moved that the petition
of Mr. Joseph Mazzini, presented on the 14th inst.,
be printed with the vots.
THE NAVY ESTIMATES. .

Mr. CORRIE laid on the table the navy estimates,
which were ordered to be printed.
MEDICAL REFORM.
Mr. KELLY presented a petition, numerously
signed, from most respectable gentlemen of the medi-
cal profession, against the Medical Reform Bill, and
praying that the House would not pass it into a law
without material amendments.
INCREASE OF TUB NAVY.

Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN presented a petition
from.,Wellinborough, in the county of Northampton,
against preparations for war, and praying that the

THE SLN, LONDON, TITESDAT EVENING, FEBRUARY 18, 1845.

the President or Vice-President of that Board acted
as the head of it; and it did sometimes happen that
there were only four or five of them acting at a time;
but they were usually assisted in their proceedings
by the counsel of those of their body, who were
most competent to give them advice upon railway
business. Some of them engaged in railways, and others
who, though not so engaged, were most conversant
with that business, took no part in the proceedings of
the Board; but the reason they were connected with
it was becausel the object of the Government was to
select those who, from their position and education,
were best qualified to hold such a position. As to
the gentleman who was placed at the head of
the Board of Trade—he stood in the situation of a
responsible and Parliamentary officer, and was
answerable for those acts of his that had been called
in question. Mention had been made of the reports
of the Board of Trade as emanating from only three
or four members of the Board. Now, he could not
say that because a report did emanate from only
that number it should be called a report of only
three or four, no more than should a report from a
CoMmittee of that House be called a report of
three members or one member.—(Laughter.) But
the reports of the Board of Trade were now be-
fore the House as the reports from that department,
and he would contend for it that they should be held
as the deliberate and formal reports of that body.—
(Hear.) He could say, that while he was connected
with that Board he exercised his best abilities to give
satisfaction; and he would now say, that if he were
still connected with it he would defend its acts on the
floor of that House; and connected with it now or
not, he would still be ready to defend them while he
was connects with the Board—(Hear, hear)—and
he felt assured that those reports had, as they ought
to have, the confidence of the majority of that House.
—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. BERNAL had listened with great atten-
tion to the Hon. and Learned Member opposite
in his defence of his conduct while he was in
office, as a member of the Board of Trade, and
he (Mr. B.) was glad to hear him say he would' be
answerable for the veracity of the reports of that
Board—(Laughter)—and that, furthermore, he was
prepared to defend those reports, and act as their
gladiator on the floor of that House.—(Laughter.)
This was the difficulty in which the subject was in-
volved. He had long entertained an opinion on the
subject of the private bnsiness of that House, which
he was aware was not a popular one, and whenever
he had introduced it, it had not received the slightest
support. He thought they ought gradually to take
steps towards removing the chief part of the pri-
vate business from the control of that House.
They were approaching an era in civilization,
unlike any, that had been seen before, and a whole
mass of private business poured in upon them, for the
danger of which they had not provided. They had
sketched out an imperfect and hasty plan, for trusting
some of it to the Committee of the Board of Trade,
and what had been the result? Why that respect-
able gentlemen were indirectly —he might
almost say directly—accused of not discharg-
ing their duties candidly and honestly. Those
gentlemen were placed in an odious position ;
they were exposed to every random shot fired at them
by speculators, or by those who were not speculators.
He for one would not consent to stand in such a
position, and would rather give up the post of Secre-
tary or President of the Committee than encounter
the odium it produced.—(Hear.) It was said
there must be some tribunal ; but it was
impossible that with a hundred Railway
Bills before them, Hon. Members, who were occu-
pied by public business, could give-up hours every
day to attend to Railway schemes in which they had
no interest whatever. What, then, was to be done ?
Let the Government, whoever it may be composed of,
boldly sketch out the plan of some open tribunal, out
of doors, where the merits of these railway schemes
could be discussed ; and he was sure that the decisions
of such a body would give more satisfaction than the
decisions of that House. The present Committee bad
not sufficient time to attend to the business thrown
upon it—all was hurry and confusion, and so great was
the pressure to get ready the plans and documents for
the last day on which they could be given in, that
several working engineers lost their health, and some
their lives, from the excessive labour; they would
never exonerate the House from suspicion of self-
interest till they removed the control of its
private business to some other tribunal.
There were certainly difficulties attending every new
arrangement, but if they studied the credit of the
House they would lose no time in taking the question
into their serious consideration.
Mr. W. E. GLADSTONE complained that he had
been misunderstood. What he had stated was, that
if he had continued in office he should have consi-
dered it his duty, as the organ of the Board of Trade,
to defend their decisions, but he had also stated that
the Government was placed in a very different
position with regard to private Bills to that in which
it was placed with regard to public Bills. As the
organ of the Board of Trade, he should have felt it
his duty to make the best defence he could for the
decisions on private Bills, but he begged it to be dis-
tinctly understood that in that decision the Govern-
ment, as a Government, was not involved.
Lord HOWICK had not complained on that point.
What he said was, that he argued against making
the reports of that tribunal conclusive, because
they dealt with property to a much greater amount
than the judgPs in Westminster-hall ; and he had
said that if their decisions were to be considered as
conclusive, their station ought to be one somewhat
approaching to that of the judges. He had not used
the word clerk in any offensive sense, for he believed
that that tribunal was composed of honourable men.
All he objected to was, their being permitted to deal
conclusively with such large masses of property.
Sir R. PEEL was surprised at the speech of the
Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Taunton,
considering the experience that that Right Hon.
Gentleman had had in the Board of Trade. It ap •
peered to be the impression that the Government
had assumed an authority in this matter which had
not received the sanction of the House. Now the
Executive Government had only acted in perfect con-
formity, as they thought, with the wishes of the
House of Commons. A Select Committee had
been appointed last session to consider the
mode of proceeding with rearrd to Railway Bills.
They were called upon to consider if the present
mode of conducting the railway business of the
House of Commons was satisfactory or not. They
had to discuss the question of the degree of super-
vision which the Government should exercise over
these railway schemes in their early stage. They
considered that some preliminary examination
of these schemes should take place before
they were 'submitted to that House. They
said they would net discuss whether or not any
new department should be instituted for that purpose,
but they would assure them that Parliament meant
that the Board of Trade should exercise that super-
vision. If the House of Commons entertained a
different opinion, that opinion should have
been expressed at the time. It had been assumed
that the Board of Trade should exercise that super-
vision, and what the Committee proposed was, that
before any Bills were submitted to Parliament, the
schemes should be submitted to a preliminary exami-
nation, leaving it to the Government to determine
whether or not any new department should be in-
stituted for the transaction of railway business.
The reports were only intended as guides for Parlia-
ment. On some occasions the Board reported in
favour of particular lines, and sometimes they re-
ported for postponement ; but he denied that they had
exercised any powers which were not in con-
formity with the powers vested in them by
the Legislature. The Committee reported in
favour of the enlarging of the railway department
of the Board of Trade, but left it to the Government
to say how it was to be organised and how it was to
be enlarged. He denied that the directions of the
Committee had not been complied with. He thought his
Right Hon. Friend had acted with propriety in de-
clining to enter into an explanation about differences
of opinion among the members of the Board, as
to the best line of railway. If differences of
opinion had, in the first instance, occurred
among the members of the Board, as to
the best line of railway, it was quite con-
sistent that explanation and discussion might re-
concile their differences, and when all their names ap-
peared as sanctionirg a report, the fact ought to be
taken to be so, and that all the members of the Board
were unanimous.
Mr. LABOUCHERE had not complained of the
Board of Trade making these reports. What he
complained of was the mode in which the Board of
Trade, or the Government, thought fit to carry the
recommendations of the Committee into effect.
He had maintained, and he would still main-
tain, that the present was a most cumbrous
mode of proceeding, and most inconvenient to the
public service. He had expressed his opinion as to
the mode in which the Board of Trade had discharged
their duties. He would say no more than to repeat
pcipoiinonioantothwathitohhe
the
proceedings mischief
Board
done,ha d
and that the Government had to thank itself for the
hsuiss
given rise.
Sir R. H. INGLIS thought that all that had been
said on the subject was a justification of
the Govern-
ment in haven i ae-o
pp nted the five gentlemen who con-
stituted the Board.—(Hear, hear.) But his (Sir R.
Inglis's) immediate object in rising at present was for
the purpose of making a few observations on
what had fallen from one of the acutest gentlemen in
the House, who had fo 1 rmer y been member. forßochester.
He would ask that Hon. Member and the House did
he think it was possible that they could entertain the
idea of creating a new judicial tribunal for the inves-
tigation and determination of matters connected with
railways ?—(No, no.) And, if it were possible to do
so, would it not be! actually instituting another Housesef
Varliament? 'or the decision of that new judicial

question. It should be recollected it was an unpre-
cedented situation—(Cheers)—in consequence of the
new Board which had been imposed upon Parliament.
Would the House take the leavings of the Board of
Trade, or would they act independently ?—(Hear.)
Mr. C. WOOD did not think the answer of the
Right Hon. Baronet was calculated to give satis -
faction either to the House or to the country. The
Government should consider whether the answer
given was calculated to give confidence in the railway
department of the Board of Trade. He (Mr. Charles
Wood) had heard from other sources the report to
which the Noble Lord had alluded. He had heard
that on one occasion the members of the Committee
were evenly divided in opinion as to a particular line
of railway ; but one of its members gave a casting
vote, which determined the Railway Committee upon
deciding in favour of the line which the President
had sanctioned, and this, too, although the only
engineer who was a member of the Committee e-
pressed his dissent to the line recommended. If the
Government wished that the reports of the Committee
should be received with any degree of confidence he
confessed he thought they were taking the worst pos-
sible course to ensure any degree of trust in the
justieb of their decisions.
Mr. MILNES said he thought Hon. Gentlemen
had erred in attaching so much importance to names
and authorities. What they should look to was the
reasons which the Committee gave for the decisions
at which they arrived. He did not see that names or
authorities had anything to do with the matter.
What the Government had said was that the reports
should be merely considered as guides, and these re-
ports could not be in any way invalidated by the
supposition that some of those gentlemen might have
dissented from the opinions of the remainder.
Mr. ESCOTT said that he feared the construction
of the Board involved much suspicion as to its pro-
ceedings. The proceedings of the Committee would
never give satisfaction unless they were public. It
sat as a court of justice, and if its proceedings were
secret they would always be liable to suspicion.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said that the answer of the
Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir G. Clerk)
would not give satisfaction.—(Hear, hear.) It was
important to consider that the inquiry had been en-
trusted to a responsible department of the Govern-
ment—(Hear, hear)—and it was not intended
that it should be left to a tribunal composed of gen-
tlemen who had no Parliamentary responsibility.—
(Hear, hear.) The Committee which sat last year
recommended that the Board of Trade should exa-
mine the applications to be made to Parliament for
new railway projects, and for rival railways,
and should report to the House their opinion
of their merits ; but he did not think that
the Committee, in making that recommendation, at all
contemplated that there should be constituted a new
tribunal, exempt from Parliamentary responsibility.
He had been a member of that Committee, and to
speak for himself, he never had contemplated any
such thing. He thought, that the Board of Trade would
transact the business itself, and that the President or
the Vice-President, or some member of the Govern-
ment, being responsible to Parliament, would have pro-
vided for the proper performance of this business in
the railway department. He thought the Board of
Trade was bound to take the duty upon itself—
(Hear, hear)—and he never before had heard
of the appointment of a tribunal constituted, as was
the one in question, of persons having no Parlia-
mentary character and no responsibility to the
country.—(Hear, hear.) He thought that those
gentlemen should not have the task thrown upon them,
however respectable they might be. He did not wish
to say a word against their respectability, upon
which there could be no imputation, but he must say
that it was not proper that gentlemen who filled such
situations as that of private secretary should have
been placed in possession of such extraordinary power
and with such little responsibility.—(Hear,hear.) He
must also say that certainly suspicions had arisen. He
did not hesitate to declare his convictions that these
suspicions were wholly unfounded. But he thought the
Government had to thank itself for having occasioned
those suspicions by the manner in which they had
instituted the Board. However, the mischief had
been done, and could not very well be remedied so
far. Still he must repeat that he did not think the
answer of the Hon. Gentleman had been satisfactory.
He agreed with the lion. Gentleman opposite that
whatever effect the report of the Board of Trade might
have on the House must depend on its impartiality.
If it was found that the engineer of the Board differed
from the rest of his colleagues upon the nature of the
report, that must, of course, very much detract from
it.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. GLADSTONE said he he did not intend to
enter into the question upon which this discussion
commenced—namely, an examination or an analysis
of the Railway Board as to the opinion of its members.
But there were two other matters introduced, upon
which he wished to say a few words. The Honour-
able and Learned Member for Winchester ex-
pressed a strong opinion, that if the judg-
ments of the Board were to carry any weight
their proceedings mutnianttaibvtueer.ep,ublic. Now he stated
most strongly to the House that there was no choice
hbo
pea tiiwi e, In t
nh
oha at sR•
hna
egi
lywtsalhiyeo i
ur
lßd po
ear
sor
tdcatb, cal dti
si
ha
agpl slu.
io(etH
proceedings
rauorbc, lei
echde
aan
rng. and
Ifth they
ythme
ust Househave
rwegasulaorf
tewmietnnetsssesa—ndthperep
Tbehfeorree
have
v e
regular
a'soarn; oafltthear
parties
at
hnedy formalm t examinationsh
counsel and agents must be constantly repsent—
sotaf
they must have all that delay and
expense which the
very gentlemen who complained of the of
want
pub-
licity were parties to expose before that House.
With regard to the composition of the Board, the
Right Hon. Gentleman opposite was the first person
from whom he had heard any censure, and far less
such severe censure as that of the Right Honourable
Gentleman. It was easy to find fault with its con-
stitution, or any plan that might be adopted under the
circumstances ; but if he lo Aced to the alternative to
which the Right Hon. Gentleman pointed out in
the remarks he addressed to the House, he
was not at all shaken in his conviction that the course
taken in the appointment of the Board was the best
course of which the circumstances would admit.
The Right lion. Gentleman admitted that if there
was to be a Board at all, he would have it constituted
of Privy Councillors. Now, he would ask the
House how it was possible to constitute the
Board of Privy Councillors, the members of which
should have patiently devoted themselves from morn-
ing till night, for the space of four or five months, to
receive deputations, to examine papers, and form con •
elusions connected with 240 railroads.—(Hear, hear.)
Perhaps it might be the opinion of the Right Hon.
Gentleman that such things were possible. In his
(Mr. Gladstone's) opinion, it was totally visionary,
and he was astonished to hear such a plan recom-
mended.by any person, but particularly by a gentle-
man of great ability, who held a high public
office in the country. Another plan was, that
the President and Vice-President of the Board
of Trade might proceed with regard to Rail-
way Bills as they did with regard to public
bills. That might be the best course to pursue if it
was physically possible that the buisiness of the
Railway Department could be got through in that
manner. But the organ of the Board of Trade
in that or the other House of Parliament
had many other matters to attend to. He had
to attend to many commercial and financial mea-
sures, and to many important matters con-
nected with their foreign and colonial policy.
At the present moment the circumstances of the Rail-
way Department were such that they demanded the
undivided mind and time of those who were called
upon to conduct the affairs of that department.
Therefore, although the institution of a novel mode of
proceeding was in itself disadvantageous, yet
the Government were absolutely driven upon
it, because the usual machinery of Parliamen-
tary representation would have been totally in-
adequate to the purpose. It was absolutely
necessary, with regard to such important matters as
railways, to take some means of assuring the House
and the country that there had been, according to
the opportunities possessed, a patient and laborious
investigation of the facts; and he did not think it
possible for any gentleman who heard him to ima-
gine that such au assurance could have been given
in this case by the Board of Trade, and to an
audience similar to that which usually decided
upon private Bills.—(Hear.) Although the plan
adopted was very far from being theoretically perfect,
and although, as must always be the case where such
great conflicting interests were at stake, great dis-
satisfaction prevailed, yet it was remarkable that no
gentleman had pointed out a course of proceeding
which, on the whole, would be attended with so
few disadvantages. It had been objected to one of
these gentlemen that he had been private secretary to
'the Secretary of State for the Home Depart-
ment. Well, he did not himself see that
that was in the nature of a disqualification, or
in the nature of proof or presumption that this gen-
tleman was unfit for his position. Why, what
changes they constantly saw taking place ! Who
censured the appointment of the gentleman who was
lately private secretary to Lord Haddington, now the
Secretary to the Admiralty.
?—(Hear, hear.) Other
gentlemen who had been private secretaries had been
afterwards made Secretaries of State; and he really
could not see that the post of a member of the Railway
Board was at all more important. He believed
that the word " clerk" had been applied to those
gentlemen. It had been said that the gentlemen who
dealt with these vast interests were persons scarcely
higher in station than clerks. Now it was impossible
to use a word more ambiguous than the word
" clerk." A " clerk" might mean one who was en-
gaged in the discharge of mechanical duties—on the
other hand it was frequently applied to a per-
son in a] public office who discharged duties
requiring very high and delicate discretion.
Nov, the position of the Board of Trade was this—

---
tribunal would be considered after in the House of conne.tax would not be temporary-, but would b 1
Russell) be'
Commons as if it had come from another branch of always renewed. He (Lord
joh
inn regard to the
the Legislature ; and it would have to be considered in I. incevecred
ei thetl
xq u e sst i otnh
ew d
l
ConlChancellor3s be, '
of the Exchequer load
I
its successive stages as a Bill which came from one
stated last yeaar, between a renewal of that impost 21_,,
House of the Legislature to the other. But he thought
a national insolvency.—(Hear, hear.) well, now le.;
that the present Committee of the Board of Trade
the House look at the statement the Right lion. Ba.roll":
was nearly in the situation of a grand jury. The made upon financial and commercial grounds. As to
inquiries were ex parte ; and when the report came what had been stated upon financial grounds, he.(l-fc'b
up to the House it was like an indictment sent from John Russell) would own they did not admit o'er
a grand jury, having only prepared the case fault. As to the statement in her Majesty's spete. e civil
for adjudication. The report did not deprive it was not her Majesty's intention to increase 13 c
the House of the power of examining all the list this year,' of course the House and the cou,n, tali
were not a.
evidence on both sides, and voting as it thought fit. should be rejoiced at this, while they .t to
There was another observation which he had to make. snerpFiscr,cl asteieti -tflrelearv, aensdtiamlaatubgQh.tle VVR'iith reePecn..,
ht Hun.
An Hon. Gentleman opposite had said that the answer h
of his Right lion. Friend (Sir George Clerk) had tron:tnheaedaleft out ofnahiys statement that which he 01:t,
not been satisfactory, as respected the appointment of J. Russell) looked upon as the most necessary part.!l,,ted
while he went into a detail of matters not at all lur 'for
some gentlemen on the Board. But it was admitted for. There were which were always locked
upon all hands that those gentlemen were qualified as a matter of course in the report of the Secre
for the duty, and their characters were admitted by rated
above War; and the House always admitted that a ctehtanresideir-
every gentleman who spoke upon the subject to be able army force was required to be kept up in
_tea
above suspicion.—(Hear.) vies, and the supplies for that department were gra
nll,,
Mr. WAKLEY thought that no complaint had without any objection by the House, whether the P".",
with re
been made against the Government for having insti- in pdowerhmeets Whi or Tory.—(Hear, hear.)
tilted the railway department of the Board of Trade. gzedtotte
finnadvythegastti,minat s, he (Lord J. Russell) was,rec;
He thought it was admitted the House itself was to 'this department, the n(gteds
blame for all that had been done.—(Hear, and a jwhich was apparent in the years 1834 and 1844!:_..
now about to give way to more vigilant attenti sail
laugh.) For all that had been said was that (Hesr, hear)—nor did he think that a force of ten
the system had not worked well, and that of the line, for such a maritime power as
_ese,..
the Government should propose to the House to was, should be looked upon as a great ," the
remedy the ineffieleney.—(Hear.) With respect to sion.—(Hear, hear.) But it did appear, ot_ates
the statement of the late President of the Board of whole statement of the Hon. Baronet, that th ovoidl' "11
Trade, he (Mr. Wakley) thought that statement were very large indeed, and much larger thanthese
or
made matters worse, when he said that if been expected, considering the absence of
0. 4 ire
he were in office still, he would stand up in the House which ledf to anh increatsBe4rtmee fewthe y,eeaarrslBl2,• axe ',orlon
and defend the report. Now, that course would be sta
tnhcee , ruohmi i
et
expenditure,e year
includingj over half a tal,_11:1,
to take upon the Government the responsibility of of
the report, and to give the latter the weight for thep support of the army in Canada and pl'ii's
of Government authority. The manner in which the amounted to 18,107,000/. Then, the estimates or_tto
year ending January, 1843, including I,3so,ooolLTtes
inquiry had been conducted gave great dissatisfaction, over nineteen millions ; and the amount of the est, ee
and the public felt that they had suffered considerable to January, 1844, was 18,895,0001., and this ain?oTareer
injury. That was the impression in the western conceived, should be looked upon as considerably ere
counties. He (Mr. Wakley) hoped that the than it ought to be, when it was remembered
_ll_,._'ever,
Government would give up the idea of having was no peculiar cause for it.---(Hear, hear.) 1.,-lliinie•
any such tribunal at all.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") he hoped and believed,. that when her Majesty sid 1150
INCOME-TAX. tors came prepared with their statement, they svou ~,is
The Order of the Day for going into a Cum- come prepared with good and sufficient reasons, for '5O,
increased amount of the estimates, and if the) (tor
mittee of Ways and Means was then read, Mr. he would not join in any vote for a 'l,llB
GREENE in the Chair. rial diminution of them.—(Hear, hear.)e. tot
On the motion that the income-tax be continued, consequence of voting those estimates would of
being put, there would be a surplus with the ince 're
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, he was very glad 3,400,000/. Now, he thought if the whole ofethellle
to:
that the Right Hon. Gentleman had consented to was to be disposedlodfhwith.dretspaetetthteo manyha belenlujudiseitta
postpone, for another day, the decision of celuessicheohseesne,nitwvyaohurespeecsta h
the House on this question, because the more to promotiyog the industr9i_es
he thought of the question the more he commerceY ofsthe country. The tax on cotton- ill le
tax on the raw material—a most important mater sea
conceived its importance to be great and
trade, was against all sound commercial principle_ to
greater even than the Right Honourable he must confess that he rejoiced that it was proarts% otl
Gentleman himself seemed to suppose. take it off.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to th
..es tb,s
If he could agree with the Hon. Gentleman glass he concurred with the Right Hon. Baof articl.e!
the Member for Kendal, who seemed to be greatly that tax greatly impeded manufactures in thattei sot d°
enamoured of this tax, and thought that it ought to and be thought the Right Hon. Baronet coyel°_, to to,
i;
be permanent, he could find some comfort, because better than take it off. With regard, howvee, r
the sfillesc-
he believed it was approaching to that accomplish- of the other taxes it was proposed to xi
to). to she. -h to
ment—(Laughter)—hut, for his own part, he had observations. would. not apply. With l3 not 015
_..9i
been accustomed to consider the income-tax neces- tion duty of the Right Hon. Baronet who did Yen ss_ct
nary, indeed, in great emergencies—for the carrying keep up any surplus, why 300,000/. should bege did ,',,t
in auction duty he could not tell. Although °„. eallail_.
on of a war of an arduous and costly nature,
generally agree with the property-tax of thw4 bee,'
but subject to some of the greatest objections which Member for Lincoln, he thought it would h a_'olo/
could be urged against any tax.—(Hear, hear.) He much better to have taken off the tax on fire-10,7d 61
had always been of opinion that it was unequal, and than auctions. The Right Hon. Gentleman lg. ',I
vexation and fraud were inherent in the tax. that there had been no complaint made of the_e ateeit,_7,
It was impossible to deny its inequality, for no man was true, and-he seemed to take to himself. nof Al;
would say it was equal that a person whose income finding out a tax that ought to be removed, beo°_,
was derived from a landed estate or the funds, which he nobody complained. Now, generally spear..".thees
,"',
could leave to his children entire, was in the same po- lieved that when the people found a tax_
_Deus's, berg'
sition as a person in a profession—a surgeon or an they objected to it, but that was not. l.lievis the
• artist—whose bread depended on the continuance of (Cheers.) The tax on soap, he believed, ~.ah
his health, or who, by the loss of a limb or a defect one remaining on the necessaries of life w.„'l! ht 0,
Smith said ought to be repealed, but the Rig
"To
of eyesight, might at any moment be deprived of his Gentleman had said nothing with respect l'°. ought at
income.—(Hear, hear.) No person could say He thought that the Right Hon. Gentleelau_as to for,
that those two persons should be considered have gone further. He thought that in fairrlceotee ler,
in the same light. Neither could any person fairly House the Right Hon. Gentleman should 1117 d-tat aPo
deny that great vexation was inseparable from that ward and said to that House, "Do you think
~„ the Pivis
tax—that a person engaged in trade, who was obliged petual income-tax will be sufficiently repluuJoiere,bieb
either to submit to the payment demanded of him, remitted by my proposition ?" But then,
lan t° ' °
or show all his accounts, and the matters in which he another part of the Right Hon.
tB. Baronet's P crosse:o.,,set,
was engaged, was not subject to very great vexation.
mheeabnef directgdeetmemereial the attenTihoen
Refight: eiio-0. rbeij :0
With regard to the fraud and evasion, he believed no
had referred to the tariff policy.o 1842, and he asedree ill rif
man who had been concerned in the collection of this
improved condition of the revenue to the elianlnit folgo
tax would deny that great frauds were practised
under it ; that the man of the most integrity tariff. Now, he thought it would have boll* (18 tie
the Right lion. Gentleman had given sircre' rod itte
and the most honour paid the tax fairly instead of general statements. He had 133''f reve,o,
and was subjected to the least reduction, while those House that there had been a great increas.e_uut tee fie
who wished to evade the law either found the means in the Customs, but not a single wordsail)friseted V
of doing so, or entangled the Government and them- titular articles on which that duty had
141.'s 0111'01
selves in the most expensive proceedings. Such being (Lord John Russell) believed that a5....1 far as th3betloo
the evils of this tax he had heard with surprise from judged from returns presented to the
_Bo
I-Ion:13'11e u„i'°3
the Right Hon. Gentleman on Friday night that regard to
there
dhuatdiehs which theeat Rightie.s
to the reve;clsilt
they were inseparable from it. He had sometimes rhedemucean,
dt
theat
theeenre
g aatgirnerease in the Costff.. 1;40
thought that by different modifications, by alterations
with respect to uncertain incomes, and by changing tbeen'solely on articles untouched by his taori6ot Pis
regard to the articles of consumption in th
the tee;by
particular provisions which bore hard upon particular schedules, there appeared a loss of 5,5001. on roebelte
classes, the tax might be rendered less vexatious. The reduced, but a gain of 17,000/. on those on seer of
Right Honourable Gentleman had had three years the Right Hon. Baronet's measure. In the 7.'4 tats es
to observe the operation of the tax, and there was no there was a gain on those not touched by
_1,,,' by ;".5 ef
reason why he should not wish to make it more equal 1,695,0001., while the loss on those affeetse.l-40'.016
and less vexatious if he could. Yet he declared that 686,0001., leaving a total :gain on these . 'ft, it"`ece
it was impossible so to do, and that he 1,900,000/. Now as far as that statement si,er,"o.bt voe
would show by argument that any attemptthat the proposition of the ni'c' IPA
appearßaronet had not been fairly put to le'repiy lip'
of that kind would but aggravate the injustice.
The gain which had taken place had been ent•lo lool'ot to
He did not pretend that the process was not vexatious
to the improved condition of the country,
_' tocqo,olB
and inquisitorial.— (Hear, hear.) But what he harvests, revivals in trade and manufactures_ ±, the Pa h,
argued on the last occasion on which the changes in the tariff. The Government,?°tuboy 1501,000
property tax' was imposed was, that any attempt of Trade might have a case to show. If
so in'.ted j
to make any alteration would lead to a greater injus- thought the Right Hon. Baronet should P_ egle;„ss,
nice than that which it cured. He did not, and he the House what that case was, and whynn_e_bivb
oa` ,O.
could not prove:that the defects were such as could not considerable increase on those articles 0
r"oet P.Vofef
be remedied, but what he proved was that they were reduced the duties. The
rTehmeevßeig4hoto Lticre: froorleotp
inseparable from the nature of an income-tax. What, to
oatrut of threantariff. But there was anet/311:sol°0$ of
then, was the conclusion ? Why, that this was a tax
duties, with regard to which the Right IDA. 000,00
whose great merit was its productiveness to the
dealt differently. With regard to thoseie/Atievell
revenue,.but which could only be imposed on great
commercial policy to which he had alllg!ett of °oil
and urgent necessity. When the Right Hon. Baronet pro- which were long ago settled in the opintu ra torieece
posed the income-tax last year, he alleged in its defence who at all looked into them, and with l'gathilt
,e,,5`03.
the necessities of the times. He said that, although they
were at peace with the powers of Europe, yet the addi- there was no opposition—one principle. an feeta.cl:s ay
was, that there should be no export dut). Apia e plea
tions made to the armament in the Mediterranean, the
war with China, with all the expenses which it entailed,
Charge
of manufactures. Another Pr,llso,- eoliedgc,
a duty on the raw materials and boo, itoe%
the war in Canada in the west, and near the Indus in These were excellent principles which were lere an fespee,,,
the east, though they did not . amount to an European
by all. In 1721, Sir Robert Walpole 1.13 that as f f:.
war, constituted circumstances of emergency which, in
tion by which no less than 130 articles min re , reettii
his opinion, justified the imposition of the tax. He were affected. With regard, to thew tueo the ,soil'it
went still further, and said, that in imposing this tax, he little dispute. Everybody was glad to 11,3) persoato
of
would not consider only the sum which it was requisite
tion and to have the advantage of it• doteallwoolid,
to raise to balance their income and expenditure, but to wish to dispute with the Bight Hon. Gepot,too-„tie`,.
make a provision for the alteration of certain duties on
customs, that would increase commerce and invigorate was a good thing to take off the duty 011
coil co 30$,t
who would wish to see the export duty ond peel' of ,esi,
industry, thereby trying an experiment which he thought Therefore, the Right Hon. Gentleman habotioa ovr..ii
would succeed in improving the condition of the people, tae of these circumstances in the aPP t witb_o e. 10.1,,,
and at the same time get hack the amount of revenue principles, where he was not likely t° In,',.e pot 'O3 iiii
that had been sacrificed. He thought he was not stating tion. But there was another prinCiUsipOle ~5 Pio
inaccurately the grounds on a hich the Right Hon. Da- acknowledged, of which Sir Robert %hell Y'rattt :04
ronet based the tax on its original imposition. But in statesman of his day were ignorant, but b„ s gosh ioi
addition to the grounds so stated, they had also the re- developed and proved to demonstration
setta 0 c 00 're
marks of the Right Hon. Chancellor of the Exchequer, and a great writer, Dr. Adam Sn3ith'inciple b.hetlbioe
during the last year, to the same effect. The Right Hon. soon after acknowledged to be a just Pe_cioie 1,,,,,„t0:A8
Gentleman, in adverting to the Budget he was then an authority than William Pitt—the Oru;ri 'code: cern°,
introducing, explained the various reductions that ought to be no protective duties—thu..t,tdreS, 'mist') of
were made, among which were several that did notof mane doing sOc •
come into Mull operation till lately. The Right. Hon. to protect certain branches
classes of industry, they were, in Inc' ',rent ,0 01i, i)
Gentleman then said—" lam not able, on the short ex- one part of the community for the aPP‘vs. bulbeef,oo
perience we have had, to conjecture what would be the another; but that after all this benefit ,s oil ,of eoeos
result of the reductions, still less what view the House rent benefit, because that very ease itsnelebelr_sid 0
would be disposed to_ take in the course of next year. whom they committed this injustice, c! _ be ic_`'s i0_,,.,)
Jn this year the income-tax would come under conside- they deprived the consumer of articles i„ore;r, lifFto
ration again, and then it would be for the House to de-
termine whether it should continue or not. Such laden-- ,ee , e
to buy, that very class itself. was Ole dey tel
long run by that species of 'ewe
being the case it must be obvious to every one that he
should not be acting an honest part if he induced the But this, though a sound principle, i.0,..d.613:tej.) l'aitto'lly
eatestwriters, and acknowledgeda"-;eo Ifootrit the
House to consent to any large reduction of duties, Grenville, and Mr. Huskisson, and D
which could only have the effect of preventing. Parlia.-
ment from coming to an unfettered judgment on this werepart inly
otrhtehy,
thcommercialeeo m eof
legislationstate snl
e.lol:f_ tvil,l:loe,
eenpoi;poisitii);.°ol),,ere‘44
subject, because if the reductions diminished other former principle in not being liar coolie? was r4l,
branches of the revenue the House would have no al- easily admitted by all classes of t,,l(:,at, eittaa, strtaf'pOo
ternative but to reimpose the tax or take refuge in na.- the contrary, whenever a change oar ''',' viole L'siv:o3,
tional insolvency." The First Lord of the Treasury posed, they always found a fierce :si.",
,„bobu',o tho',,,oto
was said to be very reserved with respect to his inten on the part of the protected inte! I:; it,
t. viol:Jo.,
tions, but he (Lord John Russell) must own that he did not only that itself an I all belongll2E:rticela.,.:ob
oate.
not think he would have been so reserved as to conceal nation itself was interested in the_, F-Dvt
it:o : fitl
his intentions from the Chancellor of the Exchequer.— national industry.—(Hear, bearkrt)owledge°,votiestie;
(Hear.) He had just given the grounds on which the truth of this principle was aac -sea thi" D9e aeto
latter declined to make any great reduction of duties. writers and wise stetesnien aavl
,e,with bores „ t
Now, in bringing forward his propositions the other deliberation should be used in doingan'eet--i: nereoiel'eii:
evening, the Right Hon. Baronet lost sight of both • -, e
In idea, there were no laws on the. eut'oeuna e it to Vielli
these grounds; and he certainly expected that the Right fit matter for legislation. If tb_eYwas 0' eveil",,je,tlii
Hon. Gentleman would have shown some particular cir-
cumstances in the condition of the country, which called elantmemanitd apfurnaiusdh orif atchteoyf
could,felo ny,ml:ardefero.rotolt)),.otorpreia, eo.A.eel!
ofo
for a remedy of a formidable and searching nature. lie crimes. But when a man was, 6°_; ofiustall.ij: in Orrroy
had scarcely touched upon either of these topics. He night, in order to produce a pie:
other fixti"wits iv°ojetee`,
had never given any statement as to the reduction of the he wished to exchange for sores
_, an act
to b 00)..,
revenue. The Right Hon. Gentleman took a very popu- support himself and fan:dly—n routes n 0 on th letioli
far course—a course which produced great enthusiasm, all praise and approbation,
allow, Dear, of lee e'l'it),
but which he thought was one attended with no incone fered with by legislation.—(
that spiritato eieTtiogl,y,
siderable danger to the country. The Right Honour- sition.) How perverted "dseal of cerlcaeourage„,rectt'd
able Gentleman showed that if they went on with- which turned from a great
tried to e"" of er,ettOoel
out an income-tax, there would be a small defi- :
it was unable to prevent, tr.
__change
scese, „ th
,i.
ciency, the year after next, in the income—that to interfere with the natural
_e_Tiieb Tue!i_ar.)
.1.:i005:0
would be a ground for continuing the income-tax and to control that desire loy.)l(Leear,.lrthe orrighthe
for a short time, and the resolutions in- the Chairman's to earn an honest livelihor r and led wered to Pie
hand seemed to justify the continuance of that tax for a neentiel!._hteee woe Ce
short time. But the Right lion. Gentleman went on with emir really
..ito were just principles
those great men whom he a
person "-to to re",
the consideration of a great number df other taxes, and ought to be the object
ensd t° be a-ctivss, 01
._ti,
the duties which he proposed to abolish, and then, when Right Hon. Baronet prothose restr id, withf Eoc'eir
he had totally destroyed the surplus which remained, endeavour to break do
of leg
nt'utnooopolice, ahldition °t.ot
and left only 70,000/., he took advantage of the popu- and abolish those unjust
re natural cc't goo- Burets .100'
shlaatdion,
larity which the abolition of taxation caused to induce and caution, restore a ne()
the Righbring
tinemoo
the House to consent to the income. tax. . The result of With respect to sugar did
remote, or ~ wee t 0 coPt.ltioo
that course would seem to be the imposition of the in- to
terfere in any way rilear, 'hear' eopese t sobibl,pet
come-tax, not merely for three years, but perpetually.— plan of legislation?—(' did lie not !) total ?ft chc,oll
(Hear, hear.) If the Right Hon. Gentleman had taken non.) On the contrary,
this year, tier no?
_is,
another course—if he had said, " Now look at my tariff by the law he brings in who sent tii_ii colon
foie! foc
—see what my tariff has produced ; see that, although against certain countries,
from our odwo this by rotlace of
the duties have not entirely recovered from their reduction, rate than- that obtained
ropesed who only Prod° 131,'
they have been gradually increasing, and in three years Right Hon. Gentlem.vt_Rion, and 1r
was th,e.t leoll•soe_
I hope the original amount will be restored." ing the present proi lei.
that the sagg the ilig" ono " p°s°
The Noble Lord went on' to say that he regretted such a restriction was.
He did think that
03ethivg) liPicdci
the course the Right Honourable Baronet had slave colonies. 0 eeded on 'c'r, heare_no4e here
taken ; no period in history could be shown in which the ronet should have pr eo,a.e_oieaiid riot. ti;
oozy, le
revenue had, from a reduction of taxation, increased to than on that pretence
i.l...;nanee hen", shoal' oro _dot!
the amount of 6,000,000/. ; for that, in three years, that the negotiator (w"
zil to Gerela any
foe oil to Pee
should be the amount it should increase to, in order to had been sent from Bra
to admit sugo ohjectoace4l",
balance the deficiency. It was not assigned as a reason on his return, proposinz
yo gown ntton, I; l'11sla'•
for the continuation of the income tax, the position in would naturally say, gco
_.,,,5... „re _ so
f its relations
which this country was placed by reason o slave-grown coffee, slave- . die vvv, Ish :' .elb ifei
with foreign States, because the Hon. Baronet said they psi- bear)
tobacco—(ll. ' ' - - '
a °lle inticles wig- or ti'lfert44o
other ar to stle-teall eit
were at peace with all foreign powers ; neither was it no objection to admitw,, respect, , , $ll
justified by reason of the reduction or the abolition of grown,
_and
_evert it",„. send
11-O.Y-7: 801
duties the Hon. Baronet had proposed ; therefore 'he have no objection, eu
(Lord John Bowl) was justified in saying that the la.' to 13staii, and WS ofOr

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