The Sun.
London, England, 1820-06-20 00:00:00

THE QUEEN.

The Earl of LIVERPOOL—My Lords, upon se-
veral occasions I have of late had to move your
Lordships to postpone the meeting of 'the Secret
Committee appointed, in pursuance of his Ma-
jesty's Message, respecting charges of which we
are all aware, on the ground that discussion and
explanations were going on, pending which it
would not be expedient to enter into the consi-
deration of the papers communicated from the
Crown. It is with regret I have now to stace,
that contrary. Jo the expectation entertaiiied, at
least for a time, by myself and by others; and
may say generally by both. Homes of Parliament
arid the Counrrv, that discussion and those ex-
planations• have failed in .producing the desired
result, and, (laying upon the 'fable a bundle of
Papers) I am commended by his Majesty to lay
these papers upon the Table, containing the de-
tails of that negociation. As in all cases where
papers are laid upon the 'fable by command of
the Crown, they ere in a course of printing, and
they will be ready for delivering to the Members
of the House to-morrow morning. Your Lord-
ships are aware that the meeting of the Secret
Committee, to whom the papers -communicated
by his Majesty's Message are referred, stands
fixed for to-morrow; but as in fairness and earl-
dom., Noble Lords ought to have an opportunity
of considering the ,Vspers I have now laid upon
the table, previous'Ao the meeting, of the Secret
Committee, in order that they may be enabled to
judge whether there is any thing iu these Paper's
that ought to influence them, either in still fur-
ther postponing the meeting of the Committee,:
or in adhering to their origioll vote, or in any.

[PRICE SEV:i.,,i3ECE.

rother manner, I therefore now move; 'hitt the
Order for the meeting of the Secret Comittittes
to-morrow be discharged, and quit the "ftcret
Committee do, instead thereof, meet on Friday.
This motion was put to the vote and agreed
to.

The Marquess of LANSDOWN—I NV;Sit to• ask
the Noble Earl, whether it is his intentiorr-to
• found any proceeding. upon the Papers whiclAe
has just laid upon the Table by command of his
Majesty ?
The Earl of LIVERPOOL-4 have no difficulty,
my Lords, in saying that it is not my intention to
found any proceeding upon these Papers. It will
be for your Lordships' to judge•of their ermtents,
and it will be competent for any Noble Lord to
make any motion respecting them that he 5611
deem expedient, or any motion as to the fur.
Cher proceeding or not of the Secret Commit..
tee. •

The Marquess of LANSDOWN—If I understand
the Noble Earl, he floes not mean to found any
proceeding upon these Papers, but it surely must
follow, from the conduct of the Noble Earl upon
this point, that his opinion is made up, that the
consideration of these Papers will form no ground
for further postponing the meeting of the Secret
Committee,

The Earl of LIYFRTOOL—My Lords, I have (ie.
livered no such opinion, nor do 1 mean to do it;
ft will be for your Lordships to consider whether
there is any thing in these papers that ought to
have the effect or not, of further postponing the
meeting of the Committee.

The Earl GREY—I cannot avoid, my Lords, in-
truding upon your Lordships a few observations,
upon the very extraordinary and unprecedented
course of proceeding which has been resorted to
with regard to this case by his Majesty's Minis-
ters. They, in the first instance, brought down
a Message from the King, making certain charges
against her Majesty, the Queen Consort. The
papers communicated with the Royal Message,
his Majesty's Ministers move to refer to a Secret
Committee, and it is clear that they had not then
in contemplation any delay in the meeting of that
Secret Committee. What circumstances subse-
quently happened,we are not permitted to know in,
any authorised shape; but there can be no doubt,nor
was it scrupled to be statecl,that thedelayafter%vards
proposed with regard to the meeting, is to be at-
tributed to the course of proceeding •adopted by
the House of Commons; a mode of acting which is
certainly directly contrary to that, which has al-
ways hitherto been the rule of this !lAise, which
never permitted itself to be in any way governed.
by the proceedings of any other assembly., We
are now, however, informed by a communication
from the Crown, with an expression of reet•er,
that the negaciation which was commenced sub-
sequent to the original Message has failed, and
the very extraordinary proceeding has been re-
sorted to of throwing down a number of Papers
upori the table, for the House to do Avhat they,
please with, but with an intimation that no pro-
ceeding is intended to be founded nonn them by
his Majesty's Ministers. This, I maintain, is
wholly unprecedented,it being the constant course,
where any communications are specially made front
the Crown, for some proceeding to be founded
upon them by the Ministers of the Crown. But
it is evidently the object of the Ministers of the
Crown, in this instance, to attempt to shift all
responsibility from their own shoulders to the
two Houses of Parliament, and this is a course
which it becomes your Lordships to resist. It is,
indeed, consistent with their whole conduct, of
which it has been the uniform object to throw off
responsibility, wherever they possibly could, upon
Parliament ; but 'it remains for Parliament fit mly
to resist a course of conduct which is so utterly
inconsistent with what ought to be the conduct
of responsible Ministers of the Crown. It is for
them to say. what is the proceeding they propose
to institute, and not to throw upon this House
the task of considering what is the course that
ought to be persued. His Majesty's Ministers
must have made up their minds as to the contents
of these rapers, and as to their effect with a view
to the proceeding or not of the Secret Committee,
and undoubtedly the more manly andahrect course
for them !o pursue would be to say at onee what
they propose and what they mean. As it is, we
are left completely in the dark, the Secret Com-
anittee is postponed without any avowed object,
and the whole conduct of Ministers leads only to
lower the dignity and character of this House,
and place it in a situation which I must elll high-
ly disgraceful..
The Earl of Hatutowev—My Lords, after -4-hat
has been said by the Noule Earl, I (eel it incum-
bent upon me to address a few words to your
Lordships upon the subject which now, occupies
your attention. To the charge, of this proceed-
ing being unprecedented, my Colleagues and my-
self must plead guilty, if it can be shewn that
there is any precedent-of a similar case. But when
it is known, as it must be, that Ministers could
derive no light from precedent (there being none
of any similar case), and only some swill glint-
merings front Analogy, it' is surely too notch to
stigmatise the proceeding as unprecedented, as if
it_were a gt kvons charge against the Ministers of
the Crown, that they have no precedent to follow.
In this point of view, the only proper course that
they thought themselves justified in eidoptine, was
to advise his Majesty to consult both Houses of
Parliament, as to the proceeding that might to he
adopted. And it surely ought not to he matter
of objection in this House, the ;Members of which
are the heteditaty Councillors of the Crown, or,
in the other House, the Members of which -are
more pecidiariy the Representatives of the People,
that their ad% ice is asked by the Crown, ai to a
proceeding so entirely novel iu the history of the
country. 'the Noble, Ball, Wilt .-says that the

:postponement of th meeting 'of tlie Secret Com-
mittee wes urged on the gratin(' of what occurred
in another place, will allow .me to say, that he
was not present during the former proceedings
regarding this subject, and that that was not the
ground upon which the postponement took place,
it being distinctly stated by my Noble Friend,
that discussion and explanation were proceeding,
and that therefore it became expedient to post-
pone the meeting of the Secret Committee. That
'this negociation has failed,'is matter of regret to
all, but surely under such circumstances the only
course to be adopted, is that which has been pur-
sued, to communicate to Parliament the result of
that negociation•, and leave it to them to say,
whether it requires any proceeding to be-'-adopted
with -regard to the meeting or not of the Secret
Committee as originally determined 'Ton.
Lord Hot emen—lt appears to me, my Lords,
that when the Noble Earl repo has just sat down,
seems to triumph in the idea, in answer to my
Noble Friend, that there is no precedent for such
a case as the present, he forgets that it is not ex-
nctly the form of a precedent that is to be looked
to, but the reason of the thing. Reason, then,
surely requires that the responsible Ministers lee
the Crotvn should he ready to state to Nadi-miens
upon their responsibility, what course of proceed.
ing they deem it expedient should he adoved, and
not that they should endeavour to shift and shuffle
<►tl that responsibility Upon Parliament itself.
‘Vluil has been the consequence of this vacillating
policy of the Ministers ?—that this House, 1 mu3t
sty with my Noble Ftiend, has been placed in a
disgraceful situation. We were told that our dig.
tiity required that we should complete our pro.
seeding by nomineting the Secret Committee, but
whet, after the repeated postponerneets of the
meeting of that Committee, becomes of our dig-
Icily now ? The Noble Earl who has jest sat
down, has said that the postponement of the
meeting of the Committee was not in con.equence
of the proceedings in the House of Commons, butt
what are the facts ? On the second day of this
luroceeding, ' a Noble Baron took the manly
and direct course of moving to postpone the
Ballot for the Committee, on the express ground
of what had occurred in the interval (namely,
in the House of Commons), tending to excite a
hope of conciliation, and what did the Noble
Earl at the head of his Majestsy's Councils say ?
That he had no information swots the subject,
that he did not believe there was any prospect of
conciliation ; and yet the Noble Earl proposed to
pus pone the meeting of the Committee; which
postponement came, in fact, to the saute point as
the motion of the Noble Baron. To what then

are we to at►ribute the postponement, except to
the knowledge of what had passed in the House
of Commons, and the wish to await for the !w-
-ater proceeding of that House ? As to any ar-
gument of not allowing the contents of the Pa-
pers in the mean time to be known to the Secret
Committee, it is quite absurd ; because the ballot
has placed six Loids upon that Committee, who,
being part of the Administration, must have pre-
viously known all the contents of them ; and see,
my Lords, to what suspicion the conduct of ctili
sisters upon this occasion leads, compared with
their conduct upon other occasions. When we
have had Green Bags against the People there has
been no delicacy on the part of Ministers in stat-
ing at once all the contents of -the Papers, though
sealed up in a bag, and anticipating all the strong
measures that it has been pretemted were rendered
necessary by the disclosures ;bus made. But here
we have a Green Bag, about the contents of which
the utmost reserve and delicacy are to be observed;
not a word is to he disclosed of them,and the House
is to he placed in the singular situation of annulling,
es it were, its own decision of appointing a Com-
mittee to consider the contents of a Bag, and
then refusing to unseal the Bag, thos.keeping the
Committee like Judges suspended in air, waiting
for the case that is to be laid before them.----The
whole of this proceeding, 1 must say, is most dis-
graceful to the House. As to the plea shat an
universal feeling was expressed that some open-
ing should'be left for conciliation, it must be in
the recollection of your Lordships that nothing
was said by any Noble Lord upon the subject,
previon4 to the proposition of the Noble Earl on
the ocher side, on the second day of this proceed-
ing, for postponing the•meeting of the Commit-
tee ; and we therefore still conic to this, notwith-
standing what has been said about the dignity of
the House, that our conduct was-in fact governed
by the proceedings of the House of Commons.
The Vail of HARROWBY, in explanation, denied
that the proceedings of the House of Commons
hat; any influence upon the postponement of the
meeting of the Committee, which arose front the
impression that an opening ought to be left for

Conciliation.
The Earl of DARNLEY maintained that not the
tightest reason appeared from any thing tl►at
passed in the interval, between the first and se-
cond day of this proceeding, for postponing the
meeting of the Committee, except what had pass-
ed in the House of Commons ; and this be con-
tended, whatever might be said on the other side,
was the real reason, for the postponement ; and
that the object of the further postponement now
".4,05, Still to wait to see what course the House of
Commons would pursue.
The Earl of LiveerooL, in explanation, con-
tended that it appeared to he the general wish,
even on the lost day of this proceeding, that
means should be found, if possible, to avoid the
painful necessity of carrying on this investigation.
As to what he said, regarding the prospect of
conciliation, on the second day's proceeding, he
denied that his words bore the import attributed
to them by the Noble Baron on the other side,
namely, that he said there was no prospect of
conciliation ; all he conveyed was, that he had
no special information to ground any opinion
upon the subject.
The Earl GREY, in explanation with regard to
precedent, observed, that he never tneant to say
there was any precedent of a case like Ilse pre-
sent, but what he meant to contend was—that

there was no precedent of any Papers cotn►unni-

_ .
cited to the House from the Crowri, referring to

and pending any proceeding before the House,
upon which some proceeding was not founded

by the Ministers of the Crown.
The Et►ri of DARNLEY repeated Ids former ob-

iection to the course of proceeding.

Lord HoLLANI) in explanation stated, th,st the
ground of his objection was, that the Noble
Earl had laid 'papers before the House without
giving them arty reason to suppose to what con-
clusion they might lead.
Lord DACRB said, that the House might still
be placed in great diffitulties, should the House
of Commons chance to form an opinion upon this
subject different from that which was expected.
High as the legal opinion in the __ ft ouse was, that
no impeachment could be instituted' against the
Queen, non constat that the House of Com Mons
might not differ from that op=nion, and institute
an impeachment. He begged to ask, whether
the ground for adjourning the meeting of the
Committee wns to he found in the papers now laid
on the table ? The Noble Earl did not say it was,
but from the course pursued, such waV to be in-
ferred. lie was also desirous to know what_was
the extent of these papers, and to what point they
reached ? Did they refer solely to the recent ne-
gociacions, or did they contain those previous
negoeiations which-should be known to the House
for the purpose of obtaining a perfect knowledge
of the-recent transactions lie further desired
to know .vhether the Noble Earl would have any
objectioil to furnish such other documents upon
this subject as might be thought necessary
The Esti of LIVERPOOL said, that the best c.v..ay
of knowing whilt the papers referred to, was to
cause the Clerk to read the title's of the papers. •
The Clerk was about to read the list, when
Lord RoLt.tt reminded the House that the clues-
Lion ofadjourninent was before them.
Lord HOLLAND said he should move that the
papers be read, in order to see it it was proper
that they should agree to the adjournment.
The Eall of LIV KRPOOL observed that the-ques--
tioos were distinct.
Lord HOLLAND maintained the right of any
Peer to call for the reading of papers lying on the
table which might . have a courection with the
question in debate—the reading of an Act of Par-
liament for illumine.

Earl See said there was no question re.
gularly betore'llre House, but the None Earl.
having laid papers on the table by the command of
his Majesty which must shortly come under con-
sideration, the regular way was to read the whole
of the papers. Not one of 'their Lordships, with
the exception of Ministers, knew what they con-
tained, so that he thought
_that the titles might at
least be read,

Lord I(oLts said, that if the sense of the House
was against his motion be certainly should not
press it. lie had moved it on perceiving that
there was no question before the House.
The LORD CIIANCSLLOR said, the obly motion
before Iheni was the question of adjournment.
How far the speeches which their Lordships had
heard bore any reference to that Trestion,it was
for, the House itself to decide, but fur his ow•n
part, he should say that he was not able to dis-
cover any. Any Noble Lord might introduce to-
pics, the application of which it would be difficult
to bee until he had made it himself.

The Clerk then read the titles of the Papers,
which were as follow

No. 1. Copy of a setter from the Queen to the Earl of Li-
verpool, dated June 9, 18211.
No. 2. Copy of the Answer addressed thereto, by the Earl of
Liverpool, on the I.oth of June.
No. 3. Copy of a Letter from the Queen to thl Earl of Liver-
pool, dated June 10.
No. 4. Answer of a Letter in reply to that of the Queen from
the Earl of Liverpool, dated Julie I I.
No. 5. Copy of a Letter front the Queen to the Eat! of Liver-
pool, dated June 12.
No. 6. Answer of the Earl of Liverpool to the same, dated

June 13.
No. 7. Copy of a Note addressed by the Earl of Liverpool on
the lath of .June to his Majesty.
No. 8. A Copy of a Note addressed by Mr. Brougham to the
Earl of Lim rpool, Stating bet Majesty's consent to the ap-
pointment of two persons on her behalf for settling all
matters in dispute between herself and his Majesty.
No. 9. An Appendix, containing the names of the pet sons
proposed as arbitrators on the part of the Queen, with a
view to conclude an arrangement, dated June 15.
No. 10. A Memorandum of an arrangement proposed to the
Queen, on the lath of April last, previous to her coming to
England.
No. 1. Protocol of the first conversation held on this subject
at St. 3antes's-square. '
No. 2. Protocol of the second conversation held at the Foreign
Office.
Nos. 3 and 4. Protocols of the third and fourth conversations
held at St. James's-skluare.
No. 5. Protocol of the fifth and last conversation held on this
subject at the Foreign Office.
The Earl of LAUDERDALE here wished to be in-
formed if the Noble Earl opposite was disposed to
communicate such papers as had passed in this
affair, not only 'us but before the 9111 of June,—
He was anxious to inspect the whole evidence
and facts, in order to see whether it was prudent
or wise to have negociated at all since her Majesty
had arrived here, or whether the business was
fruitless from the first. The Noble Earl had
himself the advantage of seeing the whole of the
pallets now referred to ; while their Lordships
;aw only their detached parts, for any thing to the
contrary yet known. He wished to have the
antecedent parts.
The Earl of LIVERPOOL bad no objection to
produce one document of anterior date, the only
one then officially communicdted to him. When
the whole of the papers were before the Hoase,
Noble Lords would be enabled to form theieopi-
nions on the entire case, with explanations of par-
ticular part'.

Lord ERSKINE{ wished to know if the Noble
Lord thought it possible for them to 'advise the
King, whether the negotiation would prove ef-
ficient or non-efficient if their Lordships were ig-
norant of the contents of the Papers upon which
that negotiation had been established. That was a
question which could be decided by his Majesty's
Government alone, because they bad seen the
papers ; but their Lordships would never venture
to deliver an opinion on a subject of which they
knew nothing whatever. He, for one, therefore,
should never give his opinion upon such 'donna-
(lot) ; at the same time be did not wish it to be
supposed that he felt any anxiety to drag open
the question. He had consented to the Secret
Committee, because he considered it both a legal
and constitutional proceeding ; but the present
was a question totally distinct from that proceed-
ing, and until he heard those papers, he, for one,
would never deliver an opinion on the present
subject.
The question was then put, and the House ad-
journed.

;For the Proceedings hi the House of Commons, sec our
Fourth Page.)

I mroIITANT boctiAlgNTS.—Tiln QULEN

COMMUNICATIONS on the Part of THE QUEEN with
HIS MAJESTY'S GOVERNMENT 1 laid before Both
Hauser of Patliament, June 18-204