The Sun.
London, England, 1845-03-08 00:00:00

cause it was only reasonable that the public should know what 7 the whole of the experiment, that it was necessary to look at
the money was really for. the matter in its full bearing, and as it affected every variety
The amendment was then withdrawn. of interest. He (Sir W. Clay) was anxious_ that that sys-
Mr. HOGG rose, not for the purpose of entering into a dis- tern should be tried, and he was confident that if applied to
cussion upon the course the Government now proposed to wear it would be found to prove the truth of his position, and
pursue, but to express his concurrence in the alterations the give a great boon to the consumer, without in the slightest de-
Right Honourable Gentleman the Chancellor of the Ex- gree injuring the revenue, or increasing the price to the con-
chequer had made in his resolutions. He originally sumer. By the experiment of putting a duty of 4s. Bd. on
objected to the rule the Government wished to establish sugar a benefit would be derived to the revenue, without im-
of ascertaining the quality of sugar without reference posing any additional burden on the consumer, and this he
to its colour. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of thought was the best mode of protection, and he, therefore,
the Exchequer had since consented to fall in with his views, and proposed it as an amendment.—( Loud cries of " Divide, divide.")
he had only now to thank that Right Hon. Gentleman for the The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
attention he had paid to his suggestions. He had communicated while he could not but allow the value of the labours of
the alteration to the Committee of the East India and China the Hon. Baronet, yet he thought that a duty devolved on
Association, from which it would be remembered he presented the House and the Government to secure a sufficient protection
a petition to the House some short time age on the subject, I by the duty they imposed for the colonies ; end the main spirit
and he was happy to say they were perfectly satisfied with the I of the argument lay, as he met submit, whether there was a
measure as it now stood. With regard to the practicability of sufficient protection provided by 'he amendment which the
working the measure, he thought that part of the matter ought lion. Baronet had proposed. 9 his was the only position that
to be left to the Government. he could submit on the present occasion. He (the Chancellor
Mr. C. WOOD wished the whole of the correspondence of the Exchequer) felt that it would be unfair to put the
which had taken place between the Government and the Bra- sugar produced by free labour in comparison with sugar which
zilian authorities to be laid on the table of the House. The was the produce of our colonies. He did not think that it was
Right Hon Gentleman contended that one rate of duty ought necessarily a matter of course that there should be a rise of
to be applied to all sugars, and that no distinction ought to be price in the article by the imposition of differential
made on account of saccharine matter, granulation, or colour. duties—( Hear, hear)—but, on the contrary, be be-
The CH AN CELLOR of the EXCHEQUF.R said that there lieved that there would be a reduction in the price
would be no difficulty in making the classification with respect of which the consumer would derive the benefit. It was his
to white clayed sugar, as it was a commodity well known. opinions that the rise and fall of price did not depend on the
Mr. F. BARING did not expect that there would have amount of duty, but on the extent of the consumption. If the
been a classification during the present year. He had always supply were to progress less than the amount of demand, the
been in favour of the classification of sugar, considering it a sys- practice would be with sugar, as it had been proved in practice
tern that would ultimately he beneficial. He thought the qua& with every other article, the proportionate increase of con-
fication by far the best mode. The duties were generally ad sumption would cause an increase in price. In his (the Chan-
valorem, but the greatest inconvenience arose from that. He cello, of the Exchequer's) opinion, the benefit to be derived
should be very glad if the Chancellor of the Exchequer would from a fiscal measure ought to be divided between the pro-
give the House a short estimate of the benefit he hoped to deducer and the consumer. The producer would obtain more
rive from the duties he now proposed. by the classification proposed by the Government than by the
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that his plan of the Hon. Baronet, and he believed that so far from
original expectation was that a greater quantity of the higher the prices heing enhanced by the imposition of the
classes of Java sugar would be introduced into the country. differential duties, they would on the contrary be reduced.
There had, however, been no opportunity at present to bring it lie was satisfied of this, from the slight operation of the mea-
to the test, as no vessel had arrived fiom Manilla. sure to which the House had agreed during the last session of
Sir W. CLAY said that all the orders which had been sent Parliament, and this benefit, he thought, had been greatly re-
out by merchants to Java and Manilla were orders for a higher gulated by the amount of protection. He believed that if
quality of sugar, for which, therefore, the higher duty would be sufficient protection were given to our own colonies, both
paid. In compliment to the Hon. Member for Beverley the the East and West Indies would so increase in the amount of
Government had partly given up the test of colour, but the their supply that they would be able to provide for the whole
explanation given by the Hon. Gentleman bad not removed of the wants of this country with an ample suffi tiency, and
the difficulty. that the price would be in accordance with the supply, while,
After a few words from Mr. C. WOOD, which were inaudible if they threw additional obstacles and discouragements in the
in the gallery, way of the colonists, and prevented the full and fair effects of
Mr. GLADSTONE said the reason why the principle of their efforts, their property would he so depressed that they
discrimination had been given up before was, not because it would be unable to compete with the sugar brought from other
was impracticable, but because the mode of discriminating was parts of the globe. The difference of circumstances in which
glaringly unjust. The efiect of that mode was, that low sugars, the several sugar growers were placed would act very inju-
which had undergone filtration, often had a high duty imposed riously to the interests of the colonists and the quantity of auger
on them, while upon many excellent sugars a low duty was grown for the British market would be reduced, and a con-
charged. It appeared from the returns of the United States siderable rise of price would ensue to the consumer.—(Loud
that a considerable quantity of sugar entered there cries of " Divide, divide.")
at a higher rate of duty, and this proved that the The Committee divided, when there appeared.--
69
principle of discrimination could not be carried out. For the amendment
The fact was conclusive as to the possibility of establishing a Against itls2
discriminating duty. It was as yet altogether matter of conjec- Majority against the amendment ---83
ture what foreign sugar would be introduced into this country. On Clause 4th being read,
Mr. HUME did not know whether the Hon. Member for Mr. M. GIBSON said that the Government adopted a
Beverley had read the paper put into their hands a few days highly disproportioned rate of duty on foreign as compared
ago. The words of the Act of George IV. were, " clayed or with colonial molasses, for, while they rated the latter at ss. 3d.
otherwise refined sugar, so as to be equal to the quality of re- per cwt., they charged the former 1/. 3s. 9d. What, he should
fined sugar." These were the words demanded by the Hon. like to know, had become of the intended 10s. 6d. duty ?
Member the other evening, and now conceded to him ; but he ( Hear, hear.) What had become of the principle that they
did not believe that they would remove the difficulty. Who were to raise their duty according to the variation in the quell-
was to say whether sugar was clayed or not clayed? Was the ties of the various sugars ? If they imposed a duty on foreign
party to be a custom-house officer, a refiner, or a generul molasses proportioned to the quality of the article, they ought
trader ? The volume to which he had referred pointed to impose a duty of 7s. on foreign molasses, and ss. 3d. on
out the grossest contradictions on the part of men colonial. Ue did not ask them to equalize their duties, because
who were the best inforsned on the subject. that had been already disposed of. Let them deal with
What conclusion had they come to ? That " they deemed molasses as with sugar.—( Hear, hear.) lie called upon the
it right to state the great difficulty existing in obtaining an agricultural gentlemen to support hint in his amendment.
unbiassed opinion on the question of fact, which sort of sugar They had been calling for cheap molasses to feed stock, and
should pay the higher, and which the lower, rate of duty. As here was an opportunity for agricultural reduction, and, at the
to sugar that had undergone any process for the purpose of same time, to relieve the rest of the community from a heavy
discharging it of its impurities, and making it equal to clayed burden ; and this, too, by carrying out the very principles of
sugar, it appeared impracticable to put in force the Act of the the) Right Hon. Baronet. The Noble Lord the Member
Ist of Geo. IV., and that the only course was to repeal that for Newark and other Gentlemen would, by supporting him ow
Act and impose one rate of duty." The whole of the volume that occasion, gain at least cheaper treacle for the agricultural
pointed oat the utter impossibility of levying the duty. The labourer.—(Laughter.) He would, therefore, move that the
owners of cargoes continually asked to know what they had duty on foreign molasses be reduced to 75., in order that they
to pay. Scarcely a cargo was introduced that did not pay the might adhere to the principle laid down by themselves on this
lower duty, a bond being taken for the payment of the dif- questiou. He would move this as an amendment, upon the
ference, if it was found necessary ; in some cases the higher clause.
duty was paid to escape delay. If this was the case Mr. EWART seconded the amendment.
where there was only one distinction taken, he asked Mr. M. GlBSON—Perhaps the Right Hon. Gentleman the
the Honourable Member for Beverley what he could ex- Chancellor of the Exchequer would be inclined to state what
poet under a plan so much more complicated? In compliance amount he would accede to
?—(Laughter. )
with the recommendation of the Commissioners, that distinction The CHANCELLOR Of the EXCHEQUER begged to
was withdrawn, and from that day to this there had been no remind the Hon. Member that the molasses he proposed to
trouble at all. He had thought that the Right Hon. Baronet, admit at a reduced duty was the produce of slave countries ;
in the simplification he was introducing into the Custom-house in fact, by the House acceding to this proposition they would
business of the country, would have considered more carefully be reversing what they had already agreed to. As to what
the complicated plan he now proposed. He could not agree had been said about agricultural distress—why, if any of the
with the lion. Member for Beverley as to the classification of Hon. Members at his side of the House, were to make such a
sugars, unless it could be done in a manner that could not be proposition as that of the Hon. Member opposite, he would
mistaken. They might draw fine distinctions, but he (Mr. be the very first to oppose it.—(Laughter. )
Hume) did not like these lines drawn between night and (lay. Mr. HUME hoped the Government would not be so hard-
They,would have different distinctions drawn in London, Liver- hearted as to refuse this proposition, as molasses was an article
pool, and Bristol, and the whole plan would be impracticable which the poor starving wretches of this country used when
to carry oat; he-regretted that so complicated a scheme should they could not afford to buy butter.
have been introduced. No two dealers would agree en one Mr. COLLETT rose amid loud cries of " Divide," and said
line of distinction, and the consequence would be, that he could not understand what the Chancellor of the Exchequer
some cargoes would be stopped, and some would be allowed had stated.
to pass. thus producing utter confusion. When any Mr. M. GIBSON said he would now move, that mo-
doub t existed, they ought to encourage the importation lasses imported from China, Java, and Manilla, or any other
of the best article, but these regulations would discourage the foreign country, whether under reciprocity treaties or other.
introduction of the highest qualities ; he regretted that the wise, be admitted at a duty of 7s. ; that be conceived would
Government should have gone against the recommendation of meet all the difficulties of the other side, and do no harm.
their own officers. He would rather take the opinions founded Mr. EWART, amid renewed cries of " Divide," was un-
on their experience, than try any newl experiment ; he could derstood to say, that he agreed with the Hon. Member that
only enter his protest against it. He had no objection to a the high duty on molasses was a great hardship,
revenue being raised on sugar, provided it went into the Mr. WARBURTON.—If the sugar to be imported under
Exchequer, but he did object to the indefinite premium and the new regulations was to be in an improved state, and not
advantage that were given to particular interests. He thought like muscovado, then an additional supply of molasses would
that protection ought to be given to the West Indies, till they be required, and therefore the duty ought to be reduced.
could be supplied with labour, or they would be unjustly The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
treated. But there was no reason why this protection should would have no objection to the amendment being introduced
be extended to the Mauritius and the East Indies ; they could in its proper place in the Bill.
already command labour, and stood in a different position. Mr. WARBURTON.—It would be only fair to make the
He wished the Right Hon. Baronet had stated distinctly what proposed reduction, for at present the different duties bore to
was the amount of protection he would give, and then they each other were as 28s. was to so was 7s. to ss. 3d.
was
would know what they had to trust to. He hoped the Hon.
After a few words from Mr. BARING, the amendment
Member for Beverley would find reasons for the satisfaction withdraws.
he had expressed with the proposals of her Majesty's Go- Mr. WILLIAMS hoped that the Government would allow
the holders of stock time until the 14th of March, and give

vernment.
Mr. HOGG said the Hon. Member for Montrose bad ex.
pressed astonishment that he should be satisfied with the plan
of the Government. Ho did not understand what ought to
be the measure of Parliamentary contentment ; the standard
might be as difficult to ascertain as that of the qualities of
sugar. He had made certain objections to the manner of
levying the duties on sugar, and the Government had been kind
enough to attend to those objections and to remove the cause
of them. The Hon. Gentleman was astonished that he (Mr.
Hogg) should be satisfied and should hold his tongue. He had
heard of parties in a case, who having judge and jury with
them, by their impudence in talking, had turned both
against them. He believed he had the House with
him, he had got the Government with him, and
that being the case he was perfectly content.
It was proposed that the duties should be taken according to
quality, but as this appeared likely to lead to great discussion,
he, to guard against that difficulty, proposed that the word
quality should not be left to the caprice of Custom-house
officers, but should be defined by the Act of Parliament, to be
founded on three elements, colour, percolation, and the amount
of saceharine matter. This had been adopted ; the whole of
the difficulty arose from this, that the Custom-house officers
persevered in asserting that all sugars from the East Indies
that had gone through a certain process of percolation by which
they were freed from molasses, were liable to the higher duty;
all the difficulty had arisen from the dogged adherence of the
Custom-house officers to this practice of charging the higher
duties on suear that had undergone any purifying process.
Sir R. PEEL said he had been surprised by one of the ob-
servations made by the Hon. Member for Montrose. He in-
ferred that the Hon. Member thought it desirable protection
should be granted to the West Indian colonies, for some time at
least, till they could be provided with the means of commanding
labour, as they were placed in a peculiar difficulty, to which
the East Indies were not liable. A protection might, therefore,
be claimed by the West Indies, which could not with equal
justice be extended to the East Indies. Then the Hon. Mem-
ber must revert to the practice under which different rates of
duty were applied to West Indian and East Indian produce. He
did think, till the lion. Member for Montrose declared that
there ought not to be any distinctive duties, it had been almost
the unanimous opinion of the House that the produce of the
West Indies should have some protection. But the Hon.
Member now seemed to advocate a return to that practice under
which differential and discriminating duties were levied on
West and East Indian produce. • He thought the Hon. Gentle-
man who sat below the Hon. Member would be rather sur-
prised at that doctrine. The Hon. Gentleman had an objection
to discriminating duties, but he said, if they could establish& d ffe-
rential rate of duty on ths higher and lower qualities of tea, then the
principle of a discriminating duty would be perfectly just.
Well, but the Government was about to apply that prin-
ciple. He had never concealed the difficulties of the
case ; he had stated them the other night, and the interval
that had occurred since then had been employed by them
in inquiring of the most experienced Government
officers, whether this principle of a discriminating duty, with
respect to the qualities of sugar, could be carried out. The
opinion of these officers was that they ought not to abandon
these discriminating duties. After considerable experience
they said there would be nice shades of quality, which
might create some difficulty, but that after some prac-
tice with respect to the great bulk of sugars imported,
there would be no such difficulties as would be found in-
superable. Almost every Honourable Gentleman who
had spoken, had admitted the principle of discriminating
duties was not unjust. If they abandoned it now for an
equal rate of duty, he believed they could never revert to it
again. They were about to make a considerable change in the
sugar duties, and the experiment must be tried immediately, if
it was to be tried at all. If they abandoned the discriminating
duties" now, they could not revert to it on a future oceasion.
Therefore,- on the whole, the Government had decided that
the experiment ought to be tried, because they believed the
principle was a good one, and because the best experience
proved that the difficulties attending its operation might be
overcome. In Bristol, Liverpool, and London, the greater
quantity of the sugar consumed in this country was
landed. A small quantity was brought into the Clyde, but the
greatest amount, not less than four-fifths of the whole, was im-
ported into those three ports. Liverpool was now within ten
hours of London, and by bringing the officers of these ports
into close communication with each other, they hoped it would
be possible to establish a unity of action, and conduct the exa-
mination of the sugars in such a manner that the trade would
not be subjected to great injury. That was the conclusion the
Government had drawn from the inquiries they had made since
the subject was last under the consideration of the House.
The preponderance of practical opinions was decidedly in favour
of a trial of the experiment. He thought the House would
have inferred from the general course of this debate, that opi-
nion was in favour of trying the experiment. He could not
help thinking, too, that a great change was to be made in
carrying on this manufacture, by the application of new
machinery, greater skill, and fresh capital. They could not
judge of the future state of this trade by the past.
Sir WILLIAM CLAY thought the Right Honourable
Baronet was bound to show some grounds for these
differential duties. He thought the House and the
country had a right to expect this. Seeing that the
prime cost of sugar was not more than 10s. per cwt., it was
too much to impose a duty equal to 100 per cent. on the prime
cost. He thought this was neither just to the people of
England, nor prudent to the colonies themselves. He believed
the time was fast approaching when British India would settle
the question as to the comparative productiveness of slave and
free labour. He believed that British India would produce
far more than enough to make np any deficiency that might
Government t o
take
_place in the supply of sugar from the colonies.
aAlarlaeldßaloroud Criesof" divide, divide," the Honour-
endeavour proceededonfetthesayha
dthat l he
referencebeiieire believed to
hat this
of revenue, but he believed that those
served better by the adoption of his Sir s;lpgiam,ses would be
His
object was to impose a duty of only 4s. Bd. y s)wptlan.
hich
was equal to 4/. 13s. 4d. a ton, and by the adogeorncof thiswplan
no less a sum would be saved to the consumers in- this
country than 1,160,000/. The Right Hon. Gentleman the
Chancellor of the Exchequer had laid that he wished to apply

them the benefit of a draw back, in order that they might dispose
of their stocks without loss. He should propose that the altera-
tion should commence upon the sth of April.
Mr. HUME begged to ask if the Government welted allow
a drawback upon sugar in stock, purchased after a given day ?
He thought the question was a very lair one.
Sir ROBERT PEEL said that it had been the invariable
practice, in changes of the Customs' duties, to carry them
into effect without any drawback. If it were in the present
instance allowed to one class of traders, the great holders of
sugar would also demand it. What the Government had pro-
posed was, that the Bill should not come into operation until
the 14th of March, which was giving them a month from
the original announcement. He hoped the House would not
require the Government to extend the time to the sth of
April.—( Hear, hear.) The probability was notorious, before
the meeting of Parliament, that an alteration would be made in
the sugar duties. It was stated in connexion with the income-
tax. He would give the House a proof of this. Shortly before
the meeting of Parliament he received a memorial signed by
seventy houses in the sugar trade, and by the Chairman of the
East India Association, the Chairman of the West India Asso-
ciation, Mr. Stirling, chairman of tile Chamberof Commerce,
and by every house in the sugar trade. The memorial was
prepared in December, and set forth that, as a sum of not less
than ten or twelve millions was annually invested in that
trade, the memorialists approached the House most earnestly
to entreat that any change which was contemplated should be
announced early after the meeting of Parliament, and should
come into operation as speedily as possible.—( Hear, hear.)
All that they proposed was acquiesced in. A month was
given and he submitted that there was no reason why the
time should be extended to the bth of April.
Mr. WILLIAMS said that the memorialists were persons
connected with the import trade, and they would not be such
sufferers as the growers. He thought that it was only just
and reasonable to give the growers a drawback upon the stock
in hand.
Mr. THORNELY said the gentlemen who had signed that
memorial were importers, not dealers, and all their goods were
sold in bond. Those who were most affected by the proposed
alteration had made their purchases, believing that the existing
duties would continue until the sth of July.
Mr. SHELL said he had received a letter from a grocer in
Clonmel, who stated there was not a bonded warehouse in
Clonmel, and the consequence was that the grocers had been
compelled to take a large quantity of sugar for home consump-
tion for Tipperary. New the Right Hon. Gentleman must see
that injustice would be done to those parties by the proposition
of the Government.
Dr. BOWRING thought that if they were to establish a
drawback on sugar, it would lead to great embarrassment, see-
ing that the Right Hon. Baronet proposed to take off the duty
from 430 articles.
Lord EBRINGTON said he had received letters from
several of his constituents, complaining of the probable effect
of the Government with respect to sugar.
Lord SA NDON—Though he perfectly concurred in the po-
licy of the Government, yet he thought it would press exceed-
ingly hard on certain parties, therefore he thought some draw-
back should be allowed.
Mr. TRELAWNEY inquired if a drawback had not been
allowed under similar circumstances?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said a draw-
back of 3s. had been allowed in 1838, under similar circum-
stances, but in that case no notice was given. The general rule
with respect to Customs' articles was, that no return should be
made in the articles themselves, because the dealers were not
obliged to take those articles out of bond unless they required
them. He thought the refiners had less to dread from the com-
petition of a low duty than any others, for they were a small
body and could protect themselves by keeping up the price.
Mr. BRIGHT considered that that debate aught to teach
them to place their duties on a sound principle. That would
prevent a renewal of those debates every year, and the merchant
would know how to make his calculations, which he could not
do now.
After a few words from Colonel FOX,
Mr. BRAMSTON said that if the Hon. and Gallant Mem-
ber divided the House, he would support him, because he
thought the case of the sugar refiners was a very hard one.
Lord EBRINGTON thought that the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer was best answered by his own resolutions. If the re.
liners could keep up the price, what became of the advantage of
the reduction of duty ?
After a few observations from the CitancELLoa. of the
EXCHIQUBIL and Mr. HINDLEY,
Sir R. PEEL said he trusted the Hon. Member would not
divide the House.
Mr. HUME advised his Gallant Friend not to divide the
House.
The amendment was then withdrawn, and the resolution
was agreed to.
The House resumed, and the Report was ordered to be re-
eeived on Monday.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM moved the second reading of the
Justices' Clerks and Clerks of the Peace Bill.
Mr. B. ESCOTT trusted that the Right Hon. Baronet
would postpone the second reading of the Bill to a future day.
After a few words from Mr. HENLEY, in opposition to
the second reading,
Sir J. GRAHAM postponed it until Wednesday next.
The LORD ADVOCATE obtained leave to bring in the
following Bills :—A Bill to simplify the form, and diminish the
expense of obtaining infeftment in heritable property in Scot-
land; and a Bill to facilitate the transmission and extinction of
heritable securities for debt in Scotland.
On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHE-
QUER, Mr. Cardwell was aided to the Hull Docks Committee.
Mr. JOHN ABEL SMITH moved for copies of all corres-
pondence between her Majesty's Government and Captain
Elliot, Sir Henry Pottinger, and others, relative to the difer-
cues of 406 chests of opium.—Agreed to.
The House then adjourned, at One o'clock.

We understand the sum of 250,0001. will be asked
for in the present session, to be applied to the repairing and
extending the fortifications in Malta, more particularly the
lines known there by the name of the Colonera.—Afaltie
raper.