The Sun.
London, England, 1845-06-10 00:00:00

GROUP KK

LIVERPOOL AND MANCHESTER EXTPN-

SION.

Mr. Woods, the engineer of the Liverpool and Manchester line,
gave evidence confirmatory of Mr. Lowndes' statement on Satur-
day, which appeared in our paper of that day. At the close of this
examination

Mr Sergeant BELL &SI! said he appeared for Lord Francis
Egerton and several landowners along the line, and also
for the Liverpool and Manchester Railway Company. The
avowed objects of the Liverpool and Bury line were to extend com-
munication between those towns and that of Bolton, but the real
objects of the promoters were, first, to compete with the Man-
chester and Liverpool Railway, and, secondly, to deprive it of
the traffic of the great towns of Yorkshire. He hoped the project
would find no favour with the Committee, and that the Legislature
would avoid striking so heavy a blow against that which was the pa-
rent of the railway system in this country. He did not deny that the
present communication between Liverpool and the towns at which
the proposed line would touch was at present imperfect, and re-
quired amendment. He did not deny that there was at present a good
deal of delay in the transference of goods, particularly at the Button
station; but the Liverpool and Manchester Railway, which he re-
presented, would propose a far more eligible:communication than
that projected by the promoters of this Bill. The Learned
Sergeant went on to say that the witnesses upon the other side
had greatly exaggerated the traffic and passenger communication
between these towns, and said he would produce evidence to show
that the calculations upon the other side were utterly erroneous
and unfounded, in some cases the amount being doubled, in others
tripled, in very many, indeed, quadrupled, and in not a few cases
not a single pound having left the place where thousands of tons
were said to have been transhipped. The line which he proposed
was from Lowestoft, on the Bolton and Preston line, three miles
from Bolton, to join the Manchester and Liverpool line at Newton
He had authority to state that this line would be carried
out for trial by the Manchester and Liverpool Railway,
if it met with the sanction of Parliament. The line
he proposed would pass through some of the richest coal-
fields in England. He was surprised at the Board of Trade for
reporting in favour of the Liverpool and Bury line, and made
sure that report had been founded on misrepresentations made
to them. The report set forth that the resources of the
Liverpool and Manchester line were all engaged in the
main line. Such was not the fact. There were only four subscri-
bers from Bury, and five from Bolton in favour of the Liverpool

and Bury line. A single shareholder in Liverpool had bought
more shares in the line than all the inhabitants of Bolton together.
The Liverpool and Bury line was a crude, hasty, and imperfect
scheme, sad could only have originated in the present speculative
mania. The Liverpool and Manchester line would be on a level with
the docks, whereas the terminus of the other would be forty feet
high, and some hundred yards from the docks. The stations pro-
posed by his clients were far more comprehensive, and they
could accommodate infinitely more persons than the other. The
traffic tables on the other side were altogether wrong, and he
could not but think the Board of Trade must have come
to its conclusion from these erroneous figures. The Man-
chester and Liverpool Railway had already done much—they
had gone to an expense of 250,01101. to join the Alan.
cheater and Liverpool Railway with the Leeds Railway. The
case which he had laid before them be would prove by witnesses.
Mr. Henry Bradshaw was agent to the Bolton and Leigh Rail.
way Company, and had been so fur sixteen years. Had examined
the traffic tables sent to the Board of Trade by the pro-
moters of the Liverpool and Bury line, and found them incorrect.
The traffic between Bolton and Liverpool was stated by them to be
59,506 tons, whereas it was only 25,600 tons. It was said upon
the other side that the traffic between Bolton and Wigan was in
minerals, &c., 2418,450 on the Bolton and Leigh Railway—that
statement had no existence in fact; the goods did not pass to and
from those towns.

Cross-examined by Mr. WILKINS—The foot passage traffic was
between \Vigan and Bolton. Bolton contained 90,000, and Wigan
60,000 inhabitants. Mr. Hargrave's lease in canal and railway
would end wills the present year.
Mr. Henry Abrahams, stop gate-keeper on the Leeds and Liver-
pool Canal—The annual traffic was 4:.)4,76l tons.
The witness was not cross examined.

Mr. Walinsley Stanley, engineer to the Lewis and Liverpool
Canal Company—Fourteen miles of this canal ran through a coal-
field, exclusive of 6 miles near Leigh. They had 11 curves for
coal wharfs in Liverpool_ It was essential there should be a corn.
munication of this kind for coal traffics
At the termination of this witness's evidence the Committee ad-
journed to the following day.

GROUP L.
PORTSMOUTH ILTMOSPEIERIC LINE.

The inquiry on this line was resumed at twelve o'clock today,
Mr. E. B. Denison in the chair, when
Mr. ItawLmsoN called Mr. nekton!, lessee of the Epsom tolls,
who stated that the tulle were heavier than on any other road out of
London.

Mr. Evrett, an extensive contractor for tolls, stated, in reply to
the Chairman, that there was no read which had been so little in-
terfered with as this had.

Mr. White, surveyor of the Horsham and Dorking Trust,
which began at Horsham and ended in the town of Epsom, a dis-
tance, including a branch to Horsham, of 9.6 miles. The tolls from this
trust:might be divided into four heads, public conveyanees,3Bl/ 65.6 d.
post and job work, 881. ss. 10d. ; private conveyances,
5181. 14s. 4d. ; and heavy carriage, 1,120/. Bs. 10d.—making a
gross toll of 2,1081. 15s. 6d. The number of horses that passed
was 126,588, and the tonnage 36,903 tons He was also sur.
veyor of the Leatherhead and Kingston road. It was from the
latter place that two-thirds of the coals were brought to Dorking
and the surrounding country. The price of coals at that place was
38s. to 40s , out of which 125. was for carriage, the tonnage being
about 14,000 tons.

Mr. Pope, the eminent coal merchant, stated that he had been
the first person to send coals by the South-Western Railway. Fur
the carriage of coal the charges were—for unloading Bd. a
ton ; lighterage, 9d. to 10d.; unloading and warehousing, 7d. ;
and meterage, 3d.; one-half of the meterage the captain
paid; so that the cost of getting coals to the South-West-
ern Railway is 2s. 4id. a ton. On the Brighton Rail.
way the united charges were 2s. II id. a ton ; but he
was making a dock and wharf at Deptford-creek, which he was
under a bond to the Greenwich Railway Company to make a public
wharf; and from that wharf, which was between Greenwich Hos-
pital and Deptford Dockyard, he could unload the ships at a half.
penny a ton, and get coals on to the Greenwich Railway for 4d.
Had an agreement with the Greenwich Railway Company to carry
for another 4d. ; the wharfage would be 2d. ; and meterage, as usnal,
I id. a ton, so that he could supply coals at Dorking for the same price
as he could send them to Charing.cross. 1-le had had a ship of 280
tons unloaded in the dock, and there would be every facility for the
transit of goods, not only along the proposed atmospheric line, but
also with the North Kent to Chatham. He also sent a great
quantity of shoddy, a peculiar kind of manure applied to the hop
grounds about Dorking, and there was a good deal of lime which
came up from that part of the country.
To the cross-examination of Mr. COCKBURN, Mr. Pope stated
that he had completed his own side of the dock since he gave his
evidence on the Epsom line last year, at a cost of about 2,0001.,
but the other side was as yet incomplete in consequence of the
transactions between the Greenwich Railway Company and the
South-Eastern Company. One side of the dock was his own
freehold, but the other side had been leased of the Greenwich Rail.
way Company for 99 years, and they were under an agreement to
complete that side of the dock within two years from last Decem-
ber. The cost to them would be from 3001. to 5001,. and, of
course, the South-Eastern Company would be glad to complete their
side of the dock, because it would bring a good deal of tonnage to
their line. In his opinion, the means which he adopted for
the tranference of the coals from the ships to the railway wag-
gons was much more economical.
Mr. Barclay, M.P. for Sunderland, residing at Eastwich Park, near
Leatherhead, stated that the whole of the country in his neigh-
bourhood was very much in want of railway communi-
cation. The nearest station was at Ether on the South.
Western line, and the time occupied in getting to the
City was about two hours and twenty minutes, and
the mode of conveyance was expensive. The whole of the
country was thickly studded with the villas of gentlemen connected
with commercial affairs, and who very frequently came to London.
His own place was 2 miles from Leatherhead, on the Guildford
road, and about 6 miles from Epsom. On the whole the London.
bridge terminus was by far the most convenient, and there was no
other railway which offered any facilities for conveyance.
➢lr. J3seph Cubitt, engineer, stated that he was the acting
engineer in laying out the proposed line, in which he had enjoyed
the benefit of his father's assistance. The line began at the ter-
mination of the Epsom line, which was 18 miles 5 furlongs from
Dorking, thence by Leatherhead, and a tunnel at Norbury Park, 450
yards long, to Wootley-ridge, which they passed by a tunnel 660 yards
long, thence to the ridge on which Haslemere stands, which they
passed by a tunnel of 1,733 yards long, at a distance of thirty miles;
thence to Lippock, four miles; thence to Peterifield, eight miles;
and rising to the South-down Hills, which they passed by a tunnel
1,254 yards long; thence by Idsworth and Rowland's Castle,
through a short tunnel of 140 yards in length, to Havant, eleven
miles; and thence by Bedhampton to Portsmouth, seven
miles, making the total length of line sixty miles
three, chains, and the whole distance from London
nearly seventy-nine miles. The heaviest cutting would
be forty feet deep, and would require 327,000 yards of
earthwork, and the greatest embankment would require 22,000
yards of earthwork, and would be about twenty-eight feet high

—about fifteen miles from Epsom. The deepest gradient was lin
80, and the gradients gradually decreased 1 in 475. The horizontal
was seven miles long, and the rest of the railway was
laid out in the gradients, the steepest being about four miles long.
The Chichester Branch was about 3i miles long, and the rest was
easy in gradients. There were no curves of less than half a mile
radius. The works were certainly heavy, but easy of execution.
The total estimate was 1,407,165!., including land. That was on
the principle of a single atmospheric line, but the land taken
was sufficient for a double line. The estimate included the
pipe and the electric telegraph, but not the working plant nor any
compensation for the patent right, the last being included in the
working cost. The railway might be opened in two yoars from its
commencement. The estimate covered the Chichester branch, and
in the whole comprised a distance of 6Q miles. The proposed line
certainly went through a country far more deficient in the means
of conveyance than that through which the Chichester and Guild-
ford line passed. He had laid out a branch to Guildford,
and had surveyed another to Reigate, the plans of the
latter of which had been deposited, but both were abandoned
at a late period.

To the cross-examination of Mr. CocesueN, Mr. Cubitt stated
that the first and principal cutting was in clay, and was proposed
to be 3to l in slope, and was to be 24 feet deep at bottom. There
were 34 other cuttings passing through chalk sand and clay,
varying from 1 to 1 in slope to 1 in 3, and from 30 to
50 feet in depth, and being from half a furlong to 1
miles from each other. The total quantity of earth-
work would be 4;233,779
yards and of embankment 2,402,958
yards, effected at a charge of from 9d. to Is. 3d. a yard. The
charge for tunnelling at Norbury would be 30!. a yard, at Woot-
ley 451., at Haslemere 451., and at Buriton, 30/. a yard. The
total cost of the tunnelling would be 163,185/, and for the earth.
work 200,245/. The bridges and culverts would cost just the same
amount, 200,245/. The permanent way would be made at a cost
of 2,6001. a mile, being for ballast 660/., sleepers 440/., chairs
931. 175., intermediate chairs 2311. 155., rails at 501bs
per yard, 201/, and the laying 176/, making a total
cost of 166,400/. for the main line, and :the branch,
23,4001. The vacuum tube and the electric telegraph would cost
4,5001. a mile, making a total cost in that department of 270,0001
The vacuum tube on the main line was to be 18-inch,
and would require 320 tons a mile; that on 'the branch line
would be 15-inch, and would require 264 teas of metal per mile
The cost of the electric telegraph watid be 12,0001., and
the cost of laying that and the vacuum tube would be
240/. a mile. The cost on the branch line to
Chichester would be, for fencing, 2,8001. a mile; earth.
work, 9,3211. ; for bridges, 27,7501. ; permanent way, 23,400/. ,
for vacuum tubes, 37,628/. ; for the electric tube, 1,750/. ; land,
14,6021.; and for contingencies and stations, 9,9871. a mile; mak-
ing a total for the branch line of 127,235/, and for the main line,
1,279,9301. The number of stations on the main line was pro-
be two stations on the branch line. The stationary engines were
posed to be thirteen, erected ate cost of 61,0001., and there would
new strictly within his department, but be believed that they were
to be at a distance of three miles from each other, and were to be
double engines of, together, 130 horse power.
Mr. GUNNING appeared for Lord Grantley, who has an estate
near Wonersh, and endeavoured to elicit from Mr. Cubitt that the
direction of the line had been needlessly altered. It appeared that
the nearest point of the railway would be within 150 yards of
Lord Grantley's house, where there would be an embankment about
27 feet high, but the village of Wonersh lay between the two.
There was, however, a portion of the line not more than 300
yards from the house, where there was no building to intercept the
sight of the railway. The radius of curve at the park was about
three-quarters of a mile.
To the cross-examination of Mr, M. Smirst, Mr. Cubitt stated
that there would be seven roads crossed at a level, and he proposed
to cross the line by small balance bridges, which were to remain
up generally, and which would be lowered over the tube whenever
a carriage wanted to pass ever, and a man would be placed at
those points to lower and raise the bridges.
To the cross-examination of Mr. WADDINOTON, Mr. Cubitt
stated that the branch line would leave the main line at Havant,
and he proposed to use the station of the Brighton and Chichester
line at Chichester.
To the cross-examination of Mr. ItswLiNsON, the witness
stated that the main rooms looked away from the line down
was a wall twelve feet
preremises, and the whole
of the village between the house and the railway. It was intended
hthigehoppaotsitethveallebyu,
back of
thattbethe
to pass the canal by a viaduct screened from the house, except the
upper windows, by a wood. The line would run about 200 yards
from Gosden House, the seat of Mr. Sparks, but it went altogether
through farming ground, and he did not think that any ornamental
property whatever would be disturbed. They had contracted for
the atmospheric tube at 8/. 15s. a ton, while that on the Epsom
and Croydon line was to be 71. 15s. a ton. The rails on this line
were to be 111. 10s. per ton.
To the inquiries of Mr. M. MILN2R, the witness stated that the
great features of the line had been adopted from the beginning, and
he had adopted this line, because from Godalming it was the
shortest, and enabled him to join the atmospheric line at Epsom ;
and he did not think that the advantage of the better gradients, on
the other line, was worth consideration.
To the inquiries of Lord CLIVE, the witness stated that there
would be nineteen engine stations between London and Portsmouth,
and there would be five or six crossing places on the line. There
would be a means of communicating, by the electric telegraph,
between station and station.
To Mr. Oswstn—The witness said that the heaviest portion of
the line was between Godalming slid Dorking; and the steepest
gradient, lin 80, was on the way to Havant. There were many
gradients steeper than this, there being one on the incline plane of
the Birmingham line of lin 37. The tunnels were 14 feet clear
way, and 16 feet high, clear. The brickwork was to be 18 inches
in the chalk, and 2 feet 6 inches in the sand and clay. He could
not speak as to the opportunity of continuing the traffic, if the
tunnels were to be enlarged for a double line, nor could
estimate the expenses, but the proportion might be half as
much again.
The Committee here adjourned till twelve o'clock to-morrow.

GROUP LL.
THE LONDON AND SOUTH-WESTERN

_ _
ILAILWAY EXTENSION.
The Committee on this group sat at half-past twelve o'clock this

morsing.
with.

The evidence in favour of this extension was proceeded

Mr. Cornelius Tobin was called and examined by Mr. SMIRKE.
He stated that he was the principal manager of traffic on the South_
Western Railway. He was of opinion Vat the intended extension
of the passenger part of the railroad would be of great assistance to
the Nine Elms part. He saw Mr. Herne's traffic tables, and he
perfectly coincided in them. The goods traffic had increased 500 tons
per week within the last six months. The present station was ex-
tremely inconvenient, and the subject of general complaint. The
removal would do away with a great nuisance arising from cab
and coach stands in that part of the road. The alteration would
be of great advantage to the Company; and the interest of Mr.
Francis and that of the Company were the same.
The witness was then cross-examined by Mr. Francis's agent, but
his evidence was unshaken.

The case for the promoters of the extension having been closed,
Mr. MONTAGVE CUAMBESS addressed the Committee on the part
of the petitioners who opposed the extension. He said that he
appeared for Messrs. John Francis and Charles Francis Burnett, the
Bishop of Carlisle, and his leaseholder, Mr. Alleyne 'Williams, Mr.
Woodward, the Rev. H. Tower Streeton, Martha Carr, and certain
inhabitants of the parish of Lambeth. The Learned Counsel then
went Into details of the injury that would accrue to the petitioners
for whom he appeared. The Bishop of Carlisle and his lessee, Mr.
Alleyne Williams, would be irreparably injured. When the
Committee were dealing with a question of this matter they ought
not to look to the persons, but ought to take into consideration
the protection which they ought to afford to church property, and
take care that it should not lose in value to the successors of the
prelate or to the Church, which would be benefited by that pro-
perty. The value of the property in question was 6001. a year,
which would be much lessened if Mr. Woodward could not receive
his rents. Mr. Woodward had within the last twenty years be.
come a rich and wealthy tradesman, and had erected m ,ny hundreds
of houses, the rents of which would be materially interfered
with, and he would become a man of comparative poverty, and such
compensation as was generally introduced into railway Bills could
net recompense him. His other clients would be similarly injured, as
their property was new property, in which large sums of money had
been invested. The traffic tables, he alleged, were grossly erroneous,
and the preamble was not proved. It was originally intended to
extend the present line to some place near Hungerford-bridp
from the terminus at Nine Elms. But it appeared now that
there was to be no extension from the present ter-
minus, but from the Wandsworth junction, which was
contrary to what was advertised. He argued that the Committee,
when dealing with this scheme, had to consider whether
the present line of railway could supply the demands
of the vicinity of London or the demands of dis-
tant passengers, which the traffic tables showed. It
would require four lines of railway to supply those
demands. According to the present ground plan it would
be impossible to do it. There should be an additional embank.
ment, for which there was no provision made in the estimate.
On the other hand, the Committee ought not to con-
sider the contributary branches which were contemplated—
they should look to the main trunk alone, and it was a case for post-.
ponement of such a scheme until they knew whether the branch
projects were to be carried out. If an injury was to be done to a
vast number of individuals and was to be excused because a greater
number were to be benefited, they should not do that injury
until they saw that the greater number were about to be bene-
fited. He then alluded to the advantages which it was
alleged that the intended extension would bestow upon
pleasure passengers, and argued that the pleasure excur.
sion traffic was the most futile and most unsatisfactory
that they could rely upon, as was already found out on the Brighton
line. He would conclude by saying that the present scheme
would destroy the comfort and convenience of a vast number of in-
dividuals, and was to be carried out at the enormous expense of
800,0001., and he would ask whether it was not a case which
ought to be postponed until they saw more clearly with reference
to the advantages which the public would derive from it. If jus-
tice were done by granting proper compensation, twice the above
sum would not be sufficient. The result of the evidence which he
would produce would be that the intended extension would not be
for the public benefit.

Mr. Wiltshire was the first witness called. On examination by
Mr. M. CHAMBERS, he statedthat he had been a surveyor and architect
at Lambeth for the last thirty years, and was well acquainted with
the property in that locality. He surveyed the pro.
jected line several months ago. He thought that it
was exceedingly objectionable, because it would cut property in a
diagonal direction, and passed all the great thoroughfares in a
diagonal line. It would be more injurious than if it went
directly across or by the side of property. He discovered that
there could be made as good a line, and not at greater
expense, which would not destroy property by so cut-
ting it in a diagonal direction. The property of the Messrs.
Burnett, Woodward, the Bishop of Carlisle, and Mr. Streeton, would
be injured in such a way as not to admit of compensation.
The witness was then cross.axamlned by Mr. HILL—He adhered
to his statements on examination in chief.

Mr. Cottingham, architect, wa‘ next examined. His evidence
corroborated that of the former witness with respect to the impos.
sibility of affording full compensation to the proprietors of the pro.
perty which the intended extension would cross.

After a brief cross-exanaination of the witness, the Commit.
tee rose.

GROUP N.
SOUTH DEVON AND TAVISTOCK
RAILWAY, &.c.

At the sitting of the Committee thin morning,
Lord Morley, Chairman of the Chamber of Commerce at Ply-
mouth, gave it as his opinion that the branch to Sutton Pool would
offer great facilities to Plymouth; that the inhabitants were in
favour of it ; and that the traffic which such a line would carry
would be considerable.

Mr. Brunel, the engineer to the Company, was then examined.
He stated that the line and branches would be worked by atmo_
spheric traction. The estimated cost of the branches, including
land and the laying down of the atmospheric system, would be
Tavistock branch, 157,000/. ; the Launceston branch, 130,0001.;
Sutton Pool branch, 22,009/. ; New Passage, 35,100/. On the
Tavistock branch there would be three tunnels, and a curve of
eighteen chains, on a gradient of lin 42. On the Launceston and
Tavistock branch there was a gradient of 1 in 26k, but that was at
the point of starting from Tavistock; at the Launceston end 1 in
27i for three-quarters of a mile. On the Sutton Pool branch the
smallest gradient was 1 in 40 for a distance of the chains, and 1 in
64 for about half a mile. On the Millbury branch the smallest
gradient was lin 43; in New Passage 1 in 23. The smallest
radius of a curve on that line was 22 chains.

By Mr. Ba►LwELL—The Plymouth and Dartmoor line, worked
by horse power, could not be rendered available for the purposes of
the presumed Sutton Pool branch. They proposed crossing that
line. The atmospheric pipes might terminate on either sid., or
he would carry the apparatus and the lines across 1S inches below
those laid down.

Mr. BRAMWELL then addressed the Court on behalf of Alder.
man Johnson, the proprietor of the Dartmoor line, and held that
the projectors of the lines before the Committee had violated cer-
tain promises entered into with them respecting the taking of that
line for the purpose of using it on a portion of their line. They
subsequently altered their plan and proposed to carry their line in
the same direction, and within 40 feet of it, by which great injury
would be caused to the property of Alderman Johnson.
the room was then cleared, and after a deliberation of three.
quarters of an hour the Committee adjourned until to-morrow.

GROUP P.
NEWPORT AND PONTYPOOL.

The Committee re-assembled at their usual hour this morning,
and were occupied a considerable time with amending and passing
various clauses of an unimportant nature, and affecting only the in.
terests of parties locally concerned in the construction of the pro.
posed line.

The Committee having passed the remaining clauses of the New.
port and Pontypool Railway, the Bill was ordered to be reported,
and, as had been surmised, they proceeded with the consideration
of