The Sun.
London, England, 1842-05-11 00:00:00

THE TARIFF.

On the motion that the Order of the Day for the House re-
solving itself into Committee on the Customs' Bill be read,
Lord STANLEY presented two peetions, one from Mon-
treal, and the other from the inhabitants of Canada, in favour
of the Government measure.

Mr. HAWES presented a petition from the timber mer-
chants of London, praying for an alteration in certain por-
tions of the proposed measure relating to the admeasurement
of timber for the calculation of the duty.
Sir ROBERT PEEL rose and said—Mr. Speaker, Sir, I
was in hopes I would be enabled to make the statement I
have to make on the subject of the commercial tariff after the
House resolved itself into a Committee on the Customs' Duties
Bill, but I think it is quite clear that it was for the general con-
venience that I did not raise any general discussion on the
tariff at that time; and as the Noble Lord (Lord Howick) has
given notice of motions which he intends to make, I have,
under the circumstances, no option but to make my general
statement previous to the motion for the Order of the Daybeing
read. But at the same time it is not my desire to anticipate
any discussion that probably will take place. I think, as im-
portant notices have been given, it is better to avoid entering
into the discussion of those particular questions, and not preju-
dice the facts by any partial representation of them.—(Hear,
hear.) Sir, I rejoice that we are now arrived at a period
when we can enter, as I trust we are about to do now, seri-
ously and continuously, on the discussion of this subject.—
( Hear, hear.) I very much fear that great public inconveni-
ence has resulted necessarily from the delay that has taken
place, but it was absolutely necessary that at whatever period
these propositions were made, a considerable interval must
have intervened between the first proposal of them, and their
being submitted by Government for the consideration of the
House in their perfect form.—( Hear, hear.) But, at the
same time. I am not complaining of any impediments that
have been thrown in the way of their discussion. The delay
was unavoidable on the part of the Government ; because I
am sure the House will feel it was the duty of her Ma-
jesty's Government to avoid having communications
with parties who were were personally interested. It
would be impossible to hold those communications without
giving some declaration of our intention as to the proposal to be
made, and those persons who had knowledge of the measure
to be proposed had an unfair advantage over the rest of the
public. There was no alterative but to make the motion with-
out the advantage of private communication; but, having made
it, the parties had time to be heard against any important
changes affecting their private arrangements. I trust that some
compensation of the evil necessarily connected with this pro-
posal—l trust that there has been the opportunity given to
those whose partial and individual interests are affected mate-
rially, to consider the whole scope of her Majesty's Ministers,
and fairly to consider whether they cannot find ample compen-
sation for the losses they may sustain in their special occupa•
tions by the general advantage which we may hope to gain
from the measure in contemplation. The House has before it,
in the papers recently presented, the existing rate of duties
upon the imports. They have also the amount of duty collected
under those duties which are now existing. They have the
original proposition submitted by the Government for the
amendment of the commercial tariff, and they have also before
them the proposal last suggested by her Majesty's present Go-
vernment. They have also the opportunity of comparing the last
proposal with the former, and also of judging of the altera-
tions made by the Government, and of the temper and spirit
with which those great arrangements had been undertaken ;
and I think it must be evident to every one who has com-
pared the first with the last proportion, that no undue influences
have been allowed to operate on the judgment of her Majesty's
Government. In the course of this discussion I have been re-
peatedly assured that I should not be able to set aside party
considerations. Now, I appeal to her Majesty's late Govern-
ment, to the House, and to all parties, whether any of the mo-
difications have been introduced from unworthy motives.—
( Hear, hear.) I think it will be seen by parties who had rea-
sons on either side for inquiry, that modifications have been at-
tended to, and their requests granted; and I think it will also
be manifest that powerful parties, who have urged alterations
without foundation, have been resisted. I think it
will also be shown that when weak parties have
suggested alterations, they have had a fair hearing;
and if favour has been shown to any one, it has been
to those who were weak and unprotected.—( Hear, hear.) Sir,
avoiding, as far as I can, reference to the specific question
brought udder consideration, I will state what the general
scope and purport of the commercial arrangements are which
are proposed by her Majesty's Government. The general ob-
ject of her
Majesty's Government has been to simplify the
tariff. It
cannot be denied that there are duties on different
articles not reconcileable with that principle. At different pe-
riods great alterations have been made in the tariff: in 1787
Mr. Pitt consolidated the Customs' duties. During the war,
as there was a financial pressure, it was the practice occa-
sionally to raise the Customs' duties by an indiscriminating per
centage ; and a great part of the anomalies of the present,
tariff arose from that practice. In 1825, the Customs
duties came under the review of Parliament, at the instance
of Mr. Huskisson, and great changes were made. I wish to
claim for her Majesty's Government no undue credit for the
alterations which are now proposed. I remember the last oc-
casion on which the attention of Parliament was called to
the subject was by the Committee on the Import Duties
in 1839. 1 do nut say that, if time had permitted, the inquiry
might not have been more complete; I never did at the time,
nor do I wish now to depreciate the labours of that Committee,
neither do I wish to deny that by bringing the attention of the
public to the state of the tariff, the Import duty Committee ac-
quired a claim to public gratitude. We have, therefore, applied
ourselves to making the tariff clear, intelligible, and, as far as
possible, consistent, which, without reference to the amount of
oreuirgend
tto rye,mwo'ovteddallbepoasitgivreeaptrci)hulbbliitconbsenoenfit.
the
ilmVpeohratavtemenndoefats.•
articles, torectuce the duty on such articles, so as to admit them
to a free competition with our domestic produce. In
the cases in which we have departed from th.s rule,
it was justified by special circumstances, but the gene-
ral ride has been to abolish all prohibition, and reduce
all prohibitive duties within the range of fair competition.
With respect to duties on raw materialsiconstituting the ele-
ments of manfacturer, the object has been to reduce the duties
on those materials to a nominal amount. On half manufac-
tured articles, which enter almost as much into manufactures
so that
willttle
as raw material, the object has been to reduce the duty to a
moderate amount. With respect to articles completely menu-
factored, the object has been to remove prohibition
manufactures of foreign countries may enter into competition
with our own ; and I still entertain a confident belief and ex-
pectation that the general result of this tariff, if
adapted,
be materially to diminish the charge of living in this country.
If you say we do not make such a reduction in this or that par-
ticular article as to make any saving in the expenses of a
family, I am ready to admit that that is true as to an individual
artic!e : hut if you consider the general effect of the redutaion
taken together, I contend that the inevitable result 'rank be'
to make a great reduction in the price of living in this'COUntry
as compared to what it is at present; and that must be
great advantage to all classes.—(Hear, bear.) I am not ap-
plying this to any one or two particular duties, but taking

the whole effect 'of the reduction as to manufactured goods,
raw mater ials. and provisions. I contend that the whole effect
kill be to make a material reduction in the expense of living.—
( Hear, hear.) I will take the liberty of calling attention
to some of the reductions proposed by her Majesty's Govern-
ment in relation to agriculture.—( Hear.) I am quite aware
that in these, as in other duties, it wag impossible for us to
make great reductions without affecting some interest.—
( Hear, hear.) But, Sir, I have been told that we ought,
therefore, not to take so many articles, and that the wiser
course would be to take a fewer number and make larger re-
ductions of duty. But, Sir, I think that when you make re-
ductions which affect an individual, it is but just and proper
to give him compensation in some other articles.—(Hear.)
Let me take an article which is of great importance to agri-
culture, I mean clover seed. —( Hear, hear.) I find that
the duty on clover seed is 11. per cwt. on foreign clover, and
such is the demand for it, that the amount of the duty, in 1841,
was 141,00d1.—( Hear, hear.) The clover seed is produced in
some of the southern counties of England, but in some of the
northern counties, and in Scotland, they depend on the foreign,
or, at least, the extraneous supply.—(hear, hear.) We pro-
pose to reduce that duty from 11. to 10s. per cwt.—( Hear,
hear.) 1 know very well that in this reduction some injury
will be inflicted on those districts which derive a profit from
the monopoly, for they have in some sort a monopoly, but a
monopoly which was, however, overruled by the necessity, as
is shown by the duty producing a revenue of 141,0001.
( Hear, hear.) But I think that the cheap admission of so
important an article must be fur the general benefit of agri-
culture.—( Hear, hear.) With respect to grain, there may
be a scarcity in some years, which would render a supply from
abroad a great benefit, or there may be a superiority in foreign
grass, and it is not of great importance that it should be cheap.
The reduction of the duty on grass was from 1/. to ss. per cwt.
Now again, take onions—( A laugh from an Hon. Member on
the Opposition)—Hon. Gentlemen may laugh, but the im-
portation of vegetable of this kind is of great importance ;
and it is of importance with respect to the grower of that
vegetable, that the home grower may be able to enter into
competition with the foreigner. The duty is Is. 6d. per
pound at present on onion seed, and in this case we propose to
make a great reduction from the present amount, that is to
bring it to Is. per pound. With respect to lint-seed, hemp-
seed, and oil-seed, the duty is at present Is.; we propose to
reduce it to I d. for the purpose of encouraging the manufac-
turers here to enter into competition with the manufacturers
abroad. I will now call the attention of the House to the
changes proposed on the charges at present imposed on the im-
portation of foreign woods for purposes of ornamental furniture
and dying. The duty on foreign woods had ranged from 50
to 100 per cent. on the value of the article. The high amount
of duty has, I believe, nearly contributed to effect of late
years, a great change in the industry of this country, with re-
spect to furniture. What country in the world is there where
there might be greater ski I exercised in the making of furni-
ture than England? I cannot conceive a country in which
there are greater opportunities for the exercise of consummate
skill than this : but what has been the consequence of the high
duties upon these woods ? I know there have been cases in
which mahogany has been imported into England, re-
exported into the Continent, where the furniture has
been manufactured from that mahogany, and then it has been
re-imported into England, paying 20 per cent. duty. Great
advantage, 1 think, would arise from reducing the duty on
this wood. And I do not despair, by the reduction of that
duty, to make such alteration, that instead of leading you to
import furniture from France and Germany, you may be
enabled to make a considerable export from the produce of
the skilful mechanics of the country. At present it is im-
possible to deny that the cabinet trade, whether from the
operation of this cause alone, or conjointly with other causes,
has been transferred from this country to France and Ger-
many. I pass on then from the reduction of the duty on
woods for the purposes of ornamental furniture, and I think
we shall by and.by see the great advantage which will arise from
the reduction of the duty on mahogany. It has been disco-
vered of late years that this most useful wood, which has
hitherto been confined to furniture, may be applied with
great effect to the more substantial parts of ship-building.
It is a wood that strenuously resists the operation of dry-rot
—no wood more so—and I believe if the price could be re-
duced, it would be used with great advantage in ship-build-
ing. I think it would be also right to reduce the duty on
woods for dyeing. I pass on now to ores of metal, and I
think there is no part of the tariff which is more important
than that which relates to the reduction on the duty on
ores of metal—whether I speak of iron, whether I speak of
lead, or whether I speak of copper, in my opinion great
advantage to the commerce and manufactures of this country
will result from permitting the entry of those important
articles at a much diminished rate of duty. Just let me take
the case of copper. At present in this country you cannot
import and sell foreign copper for internal use. You have
greater advantages than any other country possesses with re-
spect to coal; you have it at a cheaper rate, and can apply it
with great advantage to the smelting of foreign copper, but
when smelted you cannot make use of it for home manufacture,
and you must send it to France and Belgium to undergo the
more valuable process, viz., to be rolled and manufactured.
And what is the consequence of this? Foreign countries can
undersell you in copper smelted wish your coals ; they can
undersell you in the production of belts and sheaths for ships,
and of boilers for steam. vessels, and in a variety of other
articles of manufacture made of brass and copper. The con-
sequence of permitting that use of smelted copper abroad has
been to give to foreign countries an advantage of 101. per ton
in the market on copper smelted with your coal. In France and
Belgium—l believe I am stating a fact—thi price of smelted
copper is 101. per ton less than in this country; and ships
in foreign countries can be fastened and coppered, on account
of this advantage, at a cheaper rate than they can in this
country; this is a decisive proof of the advantage which may
be derired from reducing the price of the manufactured copper
in this country, or rather of raising it on the Continent ; and
this tariff has had that effect already.—(Hear, hear.) I will
state to you what has been the effect of the present duty. A
foreign Power was desirous of entering into a very large con-
tract for the building of several large steam-ships. Applica-
tion was made to this country, and the only objection to enter-
ing into the contract was the very great expense of fastening
and coppering in this country as compared with Holland and
Belgium. A demand was made, on account of the expense
of coppering, to which it was found impossible to accede, and it
was then stated that the contract must be transferred either to
Rotterdam or to some part of Belgium. I believe, however,
that the matter will not be decided until the decision of the
House shall be made known. I think there is every reason to
believe that, inj case the proposed reduction in the price of
copper should be agreed to, the contract, instead of being trans-
ferred to foreign countries, will be reserved for our own. I pass
now from copper to other most important elements of manufac-
ture, which are arranged under the head of oils and extracts.
Now, I consider that the manufactures of this country have
been exposed to disadvantage on account of the price of oils
and extracts. In point of fact, there is no more important ele-
ment in the manufactures of this country than sper.
maceti oil.—( Hear, hear.) The present duty on sper-
maceti oil is 26/. 10s. per tun. That duty applies to
spermaceti oil and train and blubber oil. Now we propose to
reduce that duty from 261. 10s., in respect to train and blubber
oil, to 61. ; and with respect to spermaceti oil to 151. 10s. ;
thus giving a competition to ell the produce of America, in
cases where the price of oil in this country is extraordinary
and extravagant. I hope I am not wearying the House by
these details.—( Cheers. ) I want to establish the proof
that the general result of the tariff will be to give new life and
activity to commerce, and to make a reduction in those charges
which are unavoidable under the present system.—( Cheers.)
Now a very short time since the price of spermaceti oil was
almost 601. or 701, per tun. But of late • years the price has
risen. In the year 1839 or 1840 the price of spermaceti
oil rose to 951. and 1111. per tun. The consequence
has been a great reduction in the consumption. The manu-
facturer h ,s had no other alternative, but either to consume
olive or other vegetable oil for his machinery, or else trspay a
most extravagant price for spermaceti oil in this country, as
compared with spermaceti oil in the United States ; and there
are no oils which, when applied to certain purposes of ma-
chinery, will answer the purpose so well as spermaceti oil. We
have a formidable competition with the United States in some
branches of manufactures; and they have this advantage over
us that the spermaceti oil in that country of the best quality
is sold at from 3s. 9d. to 4s. per gallon, while in
this country the price is from Bs. to 9s. per
gallon. I propose a reduction of the duty, which
will not, I trust, seriously affect that important branch
of our fisheries engaged in the oil-trade ; but yet at the same
time it is advisable, in my opinion, that as the spermaceti oil
has borne the price to which it has of late years been raised—l
think it is advisable that there should be some competition with
the oils of other countries, so as to reduce the price within
reasonable limits.—( Hear, hear.) I do not believe that if the
price here were reasonable, the American oil could compete
with the oil of this country. From oil I shall pass to dye-
stuffs. The amount of duty at present leviaole upon dye-
stuffs is so great as to have led to considerable smuggling.
Very recently a person had smuggled to so large an amount that
he had compounded with the Custom House officers for a sum
of 100,0001. rather than defend the action commenced against
him. The great amount of the duty naturally led to
illicit importation. With regard to timber, I am aware that
a difference of opinion has prevailed upon the proposed altera-
tion in the duty on that article. Now the more I consider the
subject, the more I am inclined to think that we are about to
confer an important benefit on the country at large by the pro-
posed reduction, although at the expense of a large amount of
revenue. I beg to remind the House of a memorable doctrine
of the late Mr. Deacon Hume, on the subject of timber. Mr.
Hume says, " we have abundance of untaxed coal, abundance
of untaxed iron, and we only want abundance of untaxed wood,
in order to be provided chiefly with the thi ee great
primary raw materials of employment and of manufactures."
That was the opinion of Mr. Hume. The import of colonial
timber will, in my opinion, keep in check any demand made
upon us on account of the additional facility given for the im-
portation of Baltic timber. I admit that the proposed change
is liable to this grave objection, that it will at first be attended
with the loss of revenue to the amount of 600,0001. or
700,000/. ; but I doubt whether there is any article in which
a reduction of the revenue would be attended with better effects.
These are the principal raw materials or elements of manufac-
tures with respect to which great reductions have. been made.
I cited some instances as examples of the benefit which I think
will arise from the proposed reduction. Now I approach the
consideration of the reduction of duty upon articles of
foreign mannfactures. I propose, generally speaking, to
apply an amount of duty, not exceeding twenty
per cent., upon articles of foreign manufacture. There
will be particular exceptions, but, as a general rule,
the maximum amount of duty which has been applied to ar-
ticles of foreign manufacture is twenty per cent. At the pre-
sent moment many of the duties upon these articles are as high
as they were during the war. There does not appear to have
been any consistent, uniform consideration of the amount of
these duties. Now objections have been taken by some Hon.
Gentlemen to the proposed reduction in the duties of these
articles of foreign manufacture. It is said that by making the
reduction, and by inviting competition with articles of foreign
manufacture, we have begun at the wrong end—that we ought
to have dealt more largely with the Corn-laws—(" Hear, I'
hear," from the Opposition benches)—that we ought to have
reduced, in a greater degree, the duties upon articles of pro-
visions, and that it is not just to reduce the duties on foreign
manufactures until such reductions have been made—(" Oh,
oh," from the Opposition benches)—that we are subjecting
the manufacturers of this country to a competition w ith labour
which can be had on the Continent on more favourable terms,
and therefore that it is unjust to the manufacturer. Now I
i w sh to consider the force of that objection. My answer to it is,
in the first place, that we have reduced, in a very
material degree the price of the necessaries of life. I take the
article of corn. The duty upon tee importation of foreign
wheat is at present 15s. ; if the old law were in force it would
be 275. I say there has been a very material reduction of the
duty on the import of foreign corn ; and if any man will com-
pare the duties which are payable at this day on the import of
foreign oats, barley, and wheat, with the duties which would
have been paid were the old law it force, he must admit that
there has been a very great reduction in the duty on those arti-
cles. 1 will next take the article of meat. 1 address myself
more particularly to the reductions which have been pro-
posed in the duties on beef, either fresh
.or slightly
salted, which is subject to absolute prohibition. ith
regard to fresh pork, there is at present a prohibition— I
propose freely to admit that article at a duty of Bs. a
i cwt.
Then, with regard to lard, a most important article, be it re-
membered to the poor, and an article of the greatest importance
in many of our mar.ufactures—with regard to lard we find it
at present subject to a duty of Bs. a cwt., and we propose to
reduce that duty to 2s.—(Cheers.) With regard to salted
meat, it is at present subject to a duty of 12s a cwt., and we
propose to reduce it to 83. a cwt. On hams the duty at present
is I/. 8s a cwt., we propose to reduce it to 145., just one half

the present duty. With regard to live animals, or cows and
calves, we find at present an absolute prohibition. We pi o-
pose to admit them at a rate of duty which, I admit, is ex-
tremely low, but which, I trent, 1 shail be able to show,
although it will be such as to prevent any increase in the price
of meat, will give the agricultural interest no reason whatever
to complain—(Cheering and counter cheering)—while, in
common with every class, they will share in the benefits to be
derived from these reductions. Now, in addition to
the prohibition on the importation of meat and live
animals; which we propose to remove, we also propose to re-
move the prohibitions on the importation of fish. With re-
gard to salmon, instead of a prohibition, we propose to admit it
at a duty of 10s. a cwt.—( A laugh.) In every case we re-
move prohibition.—(Cheers.) Soles, I believe, before were
prohibited ; at all events, I know there have been many invi-
dious distinctions made that the importation of those species of
fish, which were for the exclusive consumption of the rich was
permitted, while the importation of those species of fish which
were principally consumed by the poor was prohibited. But
I now come to a description of fish in which I imagine the poor
have the greatest interest—l mean herrings. In that I pro-
pose
to introduce a most important change in the duties. I
know not if the lion. Gentleman opposite approves of the al-
teration or r.ot—(Mr. Bannerman bowed)-1 know not whe-
ther I am to consider that as an expression of as-
sent or dissent. It is a subject in which I know the Hon. Gen-
tleman and his constituents take a great interest.—( Hear.)
I will read to the House a communication I received on the sub-
ject :—" Norway," it gates, " produces as many herrings as we
do. She goes to the Baltic and can sell her herrings at from
7s. Gd. to Bs. a barrel. I presume Norway herrings may be
imported into the north of Ireland at from I Is. to 12s. per
barrel, while we cannot do it at less than from 20s. to 225. I
am a free trader in respect to everything else."—(Laughter.)
This is the communication I have received, and it appears that
the person who made it is a free trader in everything else ex-
cept herrings.--( Laughter.) Now I do not share in the ap-
prehension of my correspondent, and I cannot help thinking
that a repeal of that duty would very much benefit the working
classes ; but I would wish to encourage the native
fisheries so that we might be enabled to compete
with foreigners.—( Hear.) I do not see why wo should not
beat the Norwegians.—( Hear, hear.) Reduce the duty on
timber.—( fleas, hear.) Enable the fisherman to build better
boats, that they may not fear the ruder weather and the greater
storm, and you will enable him to compete with the Nor-
wegian. His labour is as great, and his skill is as great, but
he wants the means ; reduce the duty on timber, and you give
him a new stimulus to exertion; and when you do that, you
will enable the Scotch fisherman to supply the North 01. Ireland
with the herrings which they want. I now come to vegetables,
which chiefly enter into the consumption of the working classes.
The duty on onions, which is 35., we propose to reduce
to 6d.—( Hear.) Potatoes are at present subject to a duty of
'2s. per cwt., which almost amounts to a prohibition.
During last winter, many communications were made to me
from the North of England and Scotland, on this subject.
Great alarm was felt at the price of potatoes, but the cause of
the reduction of the price was, that they were unduly forced
into the market. I should, therefore, propose to permit the
importation of foreign potatoes, in respect to the supply of
this country. I do not think the apprehensions entertained on
this subject are well founded, but, considering the import-
ance of this article, I think a duty of two shillings is too
high to be maintained, and that a material reduc-
tion ought to be made in the duty on potatoes.
I now pass from vegetables to rice. Rice may be made a most
material element in the sulssistence of the people. With respect
to rice, the duty, at the present moment is 11. per quarter,
and we propose to reduce it to 7s. per quarter. I now come
to a vegetable, in respect to which some notice has been
taken in this House, and upon which questions have been put
to me—l allude to hops. It appears in the present tariff that
there is no alteration in the duty on hops. I stated that the
consideration of this question was encompassed with many dif-
ficulties on account of the Excise duties and other matters,
and that such being the case, I wished an opportunity of com-
municating freely with parties who had a local knowledge on
the subject, and that I would suspend the decision of the Go-
vernment till I had had full communication on the subject.
That full communication has now taken place, and the Go-
vernment had formed their decision as to the course they would
pursue ; and considering there were great vicissitudes in the sea-
son, as applicable to the production of hops, the great variation
in the supply, arid the high price they bear at some times when
compared with others, considering also the great importance of
this article as connected with the beverage of the people, I
think the present rate of duty on hops is extravagantly high.—
( Hear, hear.) Although, 1 should be most unwilling in this,
as in any other interest rudely to disarrange capital, or bring
about distress that would react upon other parts of the country,
yet, Government considering the peculiar nature of this arti-
cle, think that some security ought to be taken against those
exorbitant prices taken in some years. The present rate of
duty on hopss is 8/. 1 Is. per cwt., and after giving the subject
full consideration, we are of opinion, contrary, however to the
impression of many persons, and contrary to the remonstrances
we have received, we feel it to be our duty to propose to Par-
liament that the duty on hops shall be reduced from Si. Ils.
to 41. 10s. The effect of that will be. not to effect materially
the cultivation of hops, but to prevent an extravagant price.
j To estimate how great a reduction her Majesty's Government
have made in duties on the articles of life, the House must look
at the whole; look at the articles mainly necessary to the sub-
sistence of the people, and can you deny that, having made this
material reduction, we are justified in calling on the manufac-
turer to submit to a reduction in those duties which are sup-
posed to constitute his protection. There are very material
errors made with regard to the comparative cost of living in
this and in foreign countries. If we institute a comparison,
particularly with respect to the inhabitants of large towns on
the Continent, it will be found that the expense of living
is almost as great as in this country. Take the case of Brus-
sels, for instance._-( The Right Hon. Baronet here read a letter
from the British representative at Brussels, stating
that in making the comparison of the cost of
living in this country and on the Continent allowance
was not frequently enough made for the municipal
dues exacted on the Continent for provisions. Thus the town
dues of Brussels had all but doubled the charge on articles
within the last teL years, from 1830 to 1840. The duties on
articles leviable on entering a town were frequently higher
than on passing the frontier. Now, supposing the answer I
have given on the subject of the reduction of the duty on
articles of food is not entirely satisfactory—there is yet
another conclusive ground, independently of the cost of these
articles, on which I would vindicate the reduction. 1 say that
these high duties are a mere delusion ; they do nut constitute
protection to the home manufacturer; he rests entirely upon
an imaginary support—the check is the smuggler.--( Hear,
hear.) It is a mere delusion to tell the manufacturer
that we retain a duty of thirty and forty per cent.
if he is robbed of that protection in an illicit manner.
Now, Sir, just let me read a letter which I hold in my hand;
for this is important in order to remove the uneasy feelings
from the minds of the manufacturers. Let me read a letter
from a smuggler.—( Hear, and laughter. ). The letter! is
certainly not addressed to me.—( Hear, and laughter.) It is
dated Dec., 1841, and it comes from a man of very large
means, who has a weekly intercourse with this metropolis. He
says, " I am able to forward you articles of lace, blonde, silk,
gloves, jewellery, &c., by the indirect channel—(Laughter)—
the goods to be received in London the same day as they arrive
at this port, and to be delivered by a discreet and trusty indivi-
dual."—( Loud laughter.) The letter proceeds to set
forth the per-tentage difference between the prices at
which the writer could furnish the goods, and the regular
London market prices.) The Hight Hon. Baronet continued :
Is it not clear that it is a positive advantage to the domestic
J manufacturer that he should be aware of the extent of this
competition, and that he should not be exposed to a secret.
lurking; and unseen competition, against which he could take
no precaution ?—(Hear, hear.) There is a'case which has
been brought under the consideration of myself and my coi-
-1 leagues—l mean that of the straw-plait manufacturers. Their
condition has been reported to us, arid on account of those re-
! presentations we have been induced to make an increase in the
ji duty of from ss. to 7s. Gd. I hope that will enable
j them to better their condition. But at the same time
I, wish to convince them how delusive are their
expectations of benefit from a high protecting duty.
At present, the duty upon the raw material in this country is
I not more than Id. per hundred-weight, whilst the duty upon
the manufactured article is the extravagant one of 17s. 6d.
In this case, as in others, there are great facilities for smuggling.
In one case, there is a duty of 17s. 6d. per hundred-weight ; in
the other, there is a gain of 17s. 6d. per hundred- seeight.
Here again, I say, is a complete and decisive proof of the little
advantage which is derived to the domestic manufacture of this
country from duties which may easily be evaded. Now these
are the general grounds upon which I vindicate the reduction
of the duties on articles of foreign manufacture, upon
the double ground, first of showing that we have made
such a reduction in the cost of subsistence as justifies
us in reducing the duties upon foreign manufactures ;
and, secondly, of showing that the existing rates of duties are
in many cases so high as to afford no protection whatsoever.
Now, Sir, I wish to come to another point of the tariff. I
dare say that by stating the amount of reduction I propose on
some articles of foreign produce, tending to diminish thereby
the rate of living in this country, I have, as far as I have
hitherto gone, caused some alarm to the producers of those
commodities in this country. I speak of those who are con-
cerned in the production of cattle and in the supply of meat in
this country. I leant to address myself to that case, and I
never felt more confident than I do nosy that I shall be
enabled to show that the removal of prohibitions in the case of
cattle, and the reduction of the duty on the import of foreign
meat, is not only justifiable but is demanded by a full considera-
tion of the interests W. this country.--( Hear, hear.) Now in
the first place it is quite an error to suppose that any class de-
rives an advantage from a high rate of living in this country.
In the first place, there is no man—whatever the article which
he uses—there is no man, if there be a general reduction in the
cost of living, but must derive very great advantage from that
general reduction. Looking to individual articles, parties may
be exposed to some suffering and some loss, but they must set
against that the general reduction in other articles. Let us look to
the case of the poor-rates for the last four years. '1 he price of
the articles of subsistence has been high of late years ; and we
say, justly Ithink, that the poor-rates have fallen with pecular
severity upon the landed interest of the country. During the
last four years I find that the poor, rates in England and Wales
amount, in 1837 to 5,274,0001. ; in 1838 (which was the
year ,:of the minimum amount), to 5,186,0001 ; in
1840 to 5,613,000/. ; and in 1841, they amounted
to 6,014,0001. I am quite aware that there has been in this
country a general apprehension, and what is called a general
panic, upon the subject of the importation of live cattle. It
has been constantly represented to me that it would be hut
just to defer to that apprehension, and that it was in vain to
argue against it. Now, I venture to differ altogether from
that opinion. I do not think that it would be consistent with
the part of a real friend to the agricultural interest of this
country to defer to their unjust apprehensions.—( Hear,
hear.) I admit that it would be perfectly wise, perfectly
right, to defer to sound arguments, to defer to justifiable ap-
prehensions, but it would not be right to conciliate the agri-
cultural interests by unwise concessions—it would not be
wise to invite them to rest on the unstable foundation of pro-
tecting duties.—( Hear ) No step I could take would guard
against the panic that has arisen ; but let me observe,
that some portiom of the apprehensions entertained was owing
to other circumstances besides the contemplated changes in the
tariff. If parties will believe advertisements in the newspapers,
stating that meat can be supplied from Hanthurgh at three-
penee per pound, and if people will believe these advertisements,
I cannot help them. I believe that a little inquiry would show
that the house of Messrs. something, with a fine name in
Hareburgh, who offered to make the supply, did not exist at
all.__( Hear, hear.) Parties will find that the towns which
offer to supply the manufacturing districts of the country at
threepence per p Rind, are at present themselves paying six-
pence per pound ; and my belief is, that interested parties, pre-
tending sympathy with the people of those districts,.
have inserted those advertisements for the purpose of
taking, advantage of the tariff ; sled I trust that
the delay which has taken place in bringing- it
forward, hasin-
duced the formation of a more correct judgment on the sub-
ject, and that the cattle panic is of itself fast dying away. I
have heard accounts from recent fairs,
particularly in the
northern parts of this country, which show that those who ex-
pert that the prices of cattle will be reduced, shall be much
disappointed. In arguing this question of cattle, I am not
preisared to say that there will be no reduction in the price of
cattle, but I state that the prices of cattle and meat have been
extravagantly high in this country, and that, if you can effect
a reduction, it w7ll not be such an one as to affect the price of
land, or disturb the relations between landlord and tenant. I
am about to establish, by conclusive proof, that you ought to
take security, if you can, against an extravagant price of meat,
which may arise from a defective supply. Supposing any
English grazier had been told, fifteen years ago, of the won-

der ful discovery- of steam, and the great facilities that
it w mild afford for bringing, from Aberdeen and other part'
of Scotland, enormous quantities of food for the London mar'
ket—if he bad also been told that the produce of Ireiarld
should be increased to an enormous degree, I apprehend that
the English grazier would have felt a panic twice as great 21
that which lately existed. He would have held it was MVO,'
impossible for him to contend with the importations from Ire:
land and Scotland. Now lam quite ready to admit that,
with respect to Ireland and Scotland, being parts of the
United Kingdom, they are entitled to the import of cattle.
Will it be denied that 10.000 head of cattle imported item
Scotland and Ireland would have the same effect on the hO5
market as if they were brought from foreign countries? I
not say that Ireland and Scotland should rest on the same fet'y
ingas foreign countries, nor that foreign countries have the 01.1
right to claim the admission of their cattle on the same favour ea
terms as Ireland and Scotland, which are parts of the Unite
Kingdom. All I say is, that the expected increase from Ire'
land and Scotland would produce the same effect 01
the English market, as if it proceeded from Hat''
burg, or any other part of the Continent.—( Hear, bearit
If twenty years ago you had told an English grazier to abet
an extent the importation of cattle from Ireland would in Car
sequence of the application of steam to navigation have bees
carried, would he not, I ask you, have considered that the price ed
cattle must be so reduced in consequence that he could 51°
no chance ? Now what has been the result ? Why, notwit
standing this enormously increased imporiation, the price
cattle has increased, the price of meat has increased''
and increased in a manner deserving of the most seri ,°
consideration, and this notwithstanding the increased igt:
portation from Ireland and Scotland. I will take the )164
s.
estimates in the article of fresh meat. I find in 1835 that t`',
contract price for fresh meat in the Navy estimate, was 3tt'si
ewt. In 1837 it was 425. a cwt., in 1838 it was 415., in
it was 465., in 1840 it was 485., and in 1841 it was 495. aof
So that the price of fresh meat has increased from 355. a eslt,
in 1835 to 495. a cwt. in 1841, notwithstanding the increase 'o
the importation of cattle f'om Scotland and Ireland. Ibe
contract price for fresh meat supplied for the use of Greer
with Hospital, was in 1835 40s. a cwt. I imagine they are
supplied with meat of, better quality there than they s
in the Navy. The contract price of fresh teen
supplied to Greenwich Hospital has risen from
a cwt. in 1835, to b6s. a cwt. in 1841. In 1835,4
Leadenhall-macket, the contract price of fresh meat fort
supply of shipping was 365. a cwt. In 1841 it was 481. s 0
shows that notwithstanding the increased importation of- ea'lo
from Scotland and Ireland, there has been a great rise in
price of provisions. Now let us take the article of salt porks;
salt pork for the use of the Navy. All this too goes to swell ta;
amount of the Navy estimates. In 1835 the price of the tier
of salt pork was 4/. 14s. Bd. ; in 1841 it was 71. as. 3dt,
( Iles.r.) The rise has been a gradual rise. In 1837 it trip
Si. 4s. ; in 1838 it was Si. 195. ; in 1839 it was 6/. Ils.;
1840 it was 6/. 155.: and in 1841 the price of the tierce of 51,
park for the use of the Navy was 71. 3s. 3d. from 4/. 14s.
the price in 1835. Now take the instance of Greenwich HOtI
pital. The cost of meat for Greenwich Hospital was in 1
4,4207. more than the cost of meat for the same establishrafsi
in 1835. The household expenses had, however, increasea.
1841 above 1835 12,0001. Surely I have said enough to 911,j
that, notwithstanding the great importation from Scotland tot
Ireland, there has been that continual progress in the pricierho
meat, which makes it desirable to open a more free trade. 1,,5)
can deny it? Does not the comparison of 1841 and '`'s,
show that something twist be done.—( Hear, hear.) The rivs
rulation is increasing more rapidly than the means of surf's
But it is said there is a disorder among the cattle. Ardis
not that conclusive also that importation on a freer scale ot
to take place.—( Hear, hear.) There ought not to be s'es*
lute prohibition, but the means of obtaining a supply 1;0.
other places. The duty we mean to propose is a duty astif
per pound on the importation of fresh meat and meat
salted, acid of 11. on the importation of cattle. The chief
caption is taken to the uniform rate of 1/. per head on cattle!o
(Hear, hear.) But in estimating the amount of danger,l
domestic produce from this, we must consider what is thesp
of Continental Europe with which we are to compete. ,A
respect to corn, the principle was different, for that cou'd
obtained from the most distant parts of the world, and it
be obtained from Odessa arid New York as well as from
cashire ; hut are there not natural difficulties which dimity)
the chances:of competition in the article of meat ?—( Hear, li,e,cat
Let me separate the case of lean cattle from fat.—(ulit
laughter.) And I think I can prove completely to the Engoit,
grazier that the facility to the importer of lean cattle,. eat
confer nothing lint advantage on him.—( Hear, hear.) 'bp
show him that there is no description of profit oroll,
has been reduced in so great a degree as the Pros,,
derived from the feeding of lean cattle—(Hear,
which, indeed, has almost ceased to be a profit.—(Hearshei.ots
I admit importation is carried on to a great extent re
parts of Leland and Scotland, but I can show you by jean'
ferunce to documents such an increase in the price o' eel!
cattle brought into this country, as makes the trade searsit'
ore of profit at all.—( Hear, hear.) Ido not think itor
be denied that the compel ition of lean cattle front the •,,V
tinent would be a great advantage. I have made' inqu for
on this point among some of the first graziers, and I fie sj
profit on feeding cattle is reduced almrst to nothing, s'f,
do believe the feeding would cease but for the manure.
feeding lean cattle 1 am benefiting the agriculturistssod
are employed to supply cattle for market. But snail;
placed my duty according to the weight of cattle, I 'or;
defeat the object of my Hon. Friend, because the weight:oo,
cattle varies touch. In respect to lean cattle, there isto
difficult yin applying the duty according to the weight. No 1,070,;
take the case of the importation of fat cattle.
what country would your competition in this respect el:,slPe
No man would argue much danger of importation from
or Portugal. I don't suppose in the course of years a e‘litel
on, fat or lean, crosses the Bay of Biscay.—(A laugh:) ldl4
then, take France ; let us consider whether there
any danger of competition there. Now, if you will rna'' ,s,
quiries into the case of France with respect to cattle,
have ground for apprehension that the supply is rapid!): ii,for!„
off. In respect to France, there is means of procurig.oo,,
raasion with respect to the supply of cattle, and
0011,
show you that there is no danger of the importanle
fat or lean, from France. 1 can show that for tn exporti"
years France has
;handeen an importing and net, a„le of thesji°
country of cattle
12 or 15 years, the balance of imports is greatly itirresste sap?.
notwithstanding that France does import so largelY., t“.,n•
of meat does not keep pace with the increase of riot"
_a't tosef
us take the prices in France upon a comparison in ow(
and departments. In 1822 the price of beef, on the 1639 rt
of those 86 markets, was 'lid. per kilogramme. In
,s are,
'last fa!
price had risen to 94. per kilogramme ; and in the !a.T`..irs t;,
the price of mutton had risen from lid. to 9i-d. In Yal- e t))
average price of all sorts of meat was, in 1822, no more sat'
Sid.; but on the 10th of March 1841 the price had riseoo.oo.
81(1. which was the price in 1822, to 14d. ; and this n
standing the increased importation.—( Hear, hear. ) Ifsb
the price of oxen in Paris was 296 francs, or about 11;
head. In 1839 it was 322 francs, or about 16/. In littot
was 459 francs, or about 191. 10s. Now if there is so g_
danger from the foreign supply, how is it that prices haleitst!
from 12/. to 19/. in the years from 1822 to -041
Is it because the foreigners did not import
into France ? It is not. Foreign oxen haved,,ol,
imported into France; but they have not prevented t'he
crease of prices, nor have they been sufficient to equal si roe
mand, so that there had been a decrease in the individal'ossi!
sumption. There has been a great diminution in the eon, co',
tion of meat. From 1837 to 1840 it was represented 040
12Ibs. I think I have shown conclusively that there is eu_ests,
to be apprehended from competition. Now with tol'osi;
Belgium. The Minister of Belgium saw the alar°39oset,,,
prevailed in this country, and he writes, that with ressrai
the low price at which meat will be brought into Gr'sd,
j taro, it cannot be, as has been stated, as low as it
t potted, because the price in the Belgian market tell/
time twice that amount. Well, then, Holland, I aqise te7s
is not a country from which we can expect to de,„, 11*-41
great consumption, for the price of cattle
n.
,o'c,
country will prevent any great supply. SPst acri
of the question ; France, Belgium, and Holland del: co t,
ply ; Prussia' is an importing rather than an export J,sll
try. The only danger I apprehend is from Holstein ace, 0.4
land. But the facilities of exportation from these 100 g yv
riot be so great as front Aberdeen; and, recalleod
numerous quantity of cattle brought from Ireland alt,,es,
land, comparing Holstein and Jutland with Yotseeial
many other parrs of the country, I ask whether t ord,
chance of a competition from those places, which s*,, I Doi
rally affect the interests of the English agriculturist •
at once, if you can make some reduction sllrif
price of meat in the London Idarket—above 50,00
you can provide a security against such riselottst
crease in the price of meat, it must be a great e°
and advantage to all classes of the community thist sag s
to agriculturists as well as others.—( Hear.) reo
extent of the area from which competition is to taKe folto
such that no danger to the interests of agriculture caprojacil,
apprehended; that there is no danger, at least, Of test took
of the price to 21-d. per lb. The quality of the l's
better. Now take the meat on the Continent at 4d...ollritaf
and compare it with the meat sold in the London r ep,
70., or Bil., for you can form no safe inference of try
by the difference in the price. Ido not despair of tioths
not despair of seeing you an exporting country.
great improvement going on in science, and the aPP (In!
those improvements to agriculture, 1 do hOsr'sl!
of seeing you arrive at the necessity of, 00 den'
cattle.—( Hear.) Look at France. In the countries Triasleai
France imports her cattle, 1 am glad to see Eggl.olfit
tinned among the number. Your own mutton I! blaeliefpo
to the mutton on the Continent. —( A laugh.) I dr7se to 40.1
at this moment, legs of mutton are taken from ri;aolejoil
burgh for consumption there. Well, now, take the rice °` tlil
case above, and look at the gradual increase in the uPerir 101.
in this country. I want to establish some chechisla irle„ 541
Upon the whole, I have vindicated the course 91011113.110s.'"L'ail
jesty's Government has taken in removing the Pr atity aft
reducing the price of meat—at leasnreducing the a
the import of cattle. It is said—" Why not irar- 711
Ptlijie
pro; tion to the value of the cattle ?" I say it 15 7111set,isli
possible to apprehend any such importation 85 v'cle $
rious to the country. Every foreign country ireP°lrssitial!
todhruret)tl:teouits,yaniiiusere.2iii6r,icinfcrmaiinielta,:st,uips
onno"t•hliecvhie:i.eadlavyailotremisn
dt
sorry to see this great maeit'prolipcoaible to all
tchaettilme.rneinetbsed
to the imports from Ireland, derive no benefit from
recoce
improvement in seam navigation. My object is
fteii. rerof
price of meat in London, therefore, I lay a duty ed arei‘o.ot's
on cattle, because, I consider that from the limitsW
which cattle would come in, laying on a duty adloc,
have the effect of discouraging importation. Int.ol,:d f
slaughter, and in London you consume 150,000
stiatrirle,
all slaughtered meat of the country. What c.thos
ever supply that ! Can you apprehend that more eh eol?si'd
head would come ? The total consumption of In_sec,noid
from 1,300,000 to 1,500 000 head. Is there any e:-,a.u"optlf-!,,
to the high price of meat and the amount of e Tse arg%er,',
any material injury to the agriculturists? I thinlcaorsides! 'to :4
entirely fails. The proof is quite decisive. pets i
done with 1
fore, acting on the principle we have arau
whichar can't—
Ito
increase think
th
ethere y iso na
foreignconceivable
cattle
import of cattle from Ireland has greatly increaitoh
nefi';l
ttleor,e6Viertattolt- e,
withstanding, gone on increasing. With their ueation.rieo
few years, yet this has not affected the price,.uw_erleasiegts,,
lation, you need not fear the effect of this impo of y
there
times ut scarcity. With respect to horses,.o, 4,
it will give a security against an exorbitant increase ,12
of 1/. per head on importation of horses of all sls,9if
there not, then, been an importation of horses into
._`„,oo sP,.O
For several years there has not been an imporl'uorse)9•4(
than 400 per annum. In 1841 you imported 313r0", sapo tip
you exported 4,536. I shall rejoice to see the '2l,d freia)
will be the case with respect to cattle, seetisq
improvements in agriculture, I do not despair Kos', soiy!
These are the grounds, then, on which,l rest the. Pi hio,yl
her Majesty's Government, and I do hope that‘ta, he
satisfied the mind of my Right Hon. Friend li.ivel notiices to
pense with the amendment of which he has give to crooor.
he moves that amendment, I shall feel it my ditty be cats 901
a respectful but decided resistance. and I 'l' 010"
know by what arguments my Noble Friend aslll.,bbease ffyse;/,
port an increase in the dty on foreign cattle.
.1.01aea",t,,,,rw
duty to enter upon thesestatements from some
,"e,
,nnfost
having been taken of the tariff by some pretendlo.tioit.,"
with the farmers. At the same time, a full comniunipion.,(l ate
parties has confirmed the Government in the
.°PS, Jr)
tains, that an advantage will result to all parties' pit Oat _,
agriculturists themselves, front the reductionsr,
above all, from the removal of the complete s *f"
make in the duties on foreign meat and fn.re_isg„sl- Atlvsttes,
Government found existing when it undertook „,ell/'
tion of the subject. I have now fulfilled the Purr

..~amovs•
:ilities that
other parts
ondc.n mar,
of Irelaod
,reheni that
as great al
was utter!!
from 10'
admit that,
arts of the
ri of cattle.
ported t:00
la the boo!'
ries ? lue
same foot;
ve the sao,-
me favour
n
the Unite',
from Ire"
effect 0°

rose, which was to state the general scope of the commercial
arrangements proposed by her Majesty's Government, and to
vindicate those portions cf it which have been most exposed to
exceptions, from many gentlemen who were the most strenuous
advocates of the principles of free trade ; fir, with respect to
the principles themselves, I apprehend there can be but little
difference--(Cheers)—that is to say, with respect to the ad-
vantage of purchasing in the cheapest market.—(Cheers.) I
know the meaning of that cheer, but I do not wish now to
enter into discussion with respect to the article on which an
exception has been made the art de of sugar. I
have stated, and am ready to state again, the reasons
that, in my belief, make this article an exception from
rules
.generally applicable; but I do not wish to enter
now into this discussion. Some objections have been
made to this arrangement on account of its limited extent. It
has been said that the question ought to have been dealt with
with a more unsparing hand. I am, however, of a different
opinion. I think we have gone far enough, and that if we had
Made a greater change with respect to the Corn-laws, it would
only have aggravated the distress under which the country la-
bours. I think, considering all the contingent circumstances,
we have made as great a change as is justifiable. It is impos-
sible to deal with such great interests without feeling their vast
importance, and in doing so we must take care to do as little
injury as possible to individual interests. I have acted on the
Principles laid down by Mr. Huskisson, with whom I acted in
1825, in carrying out his commercial reforms; it is
to the temper and spirit of his words that I
and my colleagues have acted, areil have attempted
"'to act. We have attempted to simplify the tariff, but with
se; bcare and circumspection, 30 that as small an amount
'tvair „41# individual suffering as possible shall be inflicted. I deeply
trft 01Ivegret that it should be necessary to create any, or even the
aas apprehensions of it ; but if you admit that objections on that
teol ,ground ought to weigh against the change, then you must
.34ste, Postpone it indefinitely.—( Hear, hear.) I sincerely hope that
so,* the result will be an incraese of the command over the enjoy-
ao e,4i,inents and comforts of life on the part of industry. We have
*lll' Made this proposal in a time of considerable financial difficulty,
-ring setting the example to other countries cot to seek to repair
tea satheir finances by restrictions on commerce and trade with
Sit_ „jereige, countries, and I regret that other enlightened commu-
hoot,• pities have not done the same, but, at the same time,
40s. I. am bound to say that I think it is for the interest
ai,"- „Of this country to buy cheap, even if other countries
tidiswill not buy cheap too. Notwithstanding temporary
obstructions, I believe that the example of England will finally
?its; „prevail, and though other countries may entertain a delusive
tlsn; hope of repairing their finances by restrictive duties, yet ex-
'aifteo perience would prove that they would not succeed; a loss of
141116,,l'evenue would he the consequence. What was the consequence
▪ sOf restriction and prohibition in Spain, where they existed in
Hof
force? Why, eternal conflicts on the frontier, and no revenue.
Ice In the United States of America. lam sorry to say, the same
4 attenipt has been made; and in the empire of Russia, where the
'hes attempt to fetter manufactures will bring its own punishment.
r-kr The example of England, if she pursue her course
;63;4 in the right path, must tell on foreign countries; and if they re-
pls Sort to a.; contrary policy, that ought not to discourage you.
41s, Act on the principtis you believe to be sound, and though
41-t's they may be for a time unprofitable to yourselves, yet they
will tell to your advantage among those who are wise enough
. to' follow them
Mr. LABOUCHERE said it would he better to discuss the
• •
,tariff when the details came before the House, but he thought
this was a favourable, opportunity for making some general
observations. He had 'heard the principles just laid down with
great pleasure. Those principles were, to a great degree, those of
the late Government, as well as the measures; and he,,Was sorry,
41e!. et the time they were introduced, a party struggle should have
e deprived the country of the benefit of them. The Right Hon.
Baronet had occupied considerable time in meeting the objee-
• tibias that had been made to the effect of parts of the tariff.
r`. - That sense of injustice was mainly founded on a belief that he
Zbad dealt with the great question of the Corn-laws in a very
different manner to what he had adopted in dealing with minor
tOs
• _interests. He
,could assure the Right Hon. Gentleman that it
Was the feeling of the late Government that a Corn-law,
' ,;' founded on a just commercial principle, was necessary for the
fOundation and corner-stone of every honest and effectual tariff
reform.—( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman told the
Howe- of a cotch correspondent of his, who told him
that he was a very good free trader in everything
except herrings. He (Mr. Labouchere) was like that
Scotch gentleman—he thought the Right Hon. Gentleman a
very good free trader in everything except the articles of corn
Ind timber.—(Hear, hear.) There was another very impor-
tant exception, which, however, he did not wish to ester on
as it would come more fully under the consideration of the
House at a future period, and that was the article of sugar.
• —(Hear, hear.) The main and essential difference between
the measures of the late Government and those of the present
advisers of her Majesty was, that whereas the late Government
thought it impossible to bring in any general measures of cons.
'Dermal reform, which must materially affect so many classes
of the community, without dealing boldly and fairly with the
question of the Corn-law, and so important an article in the
consumption of this country as sugar, the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman had introduced his commercial reform, dealing, as he
(Mr. Labouchere) thought in a very unsatisfactory manner,
with corn, and wholly leaving out sugar. He could not,
therefore, on these grounds, but retain his opinion that the
measures of the late Government were more just, more satis-
factory, and more effectual than the proposals of her Majesty's
ppasent adv sers.—( Hear, hear.) lie could assure the Right
Hon. Gentleman that he saw a great deal most valuable in
the tariff which he had laid before the House ; he viewed with
great pleasure the greater part of the alterations now proposed,
and he was satisfied that the effect they would have on the com-
merce and manufactures of this country would be most bene-
ficial.—( Hear, hear.) He would not follow the Right Hon.
Gentleman through the whole of his statements; he quite
agreed with him ,that the most favourable and useful parts of
the measure were principally those which had incurred the
greatest opposition throughout the country. He believed that
what the Right Hon. Gentleman said about the importance
of reducing the duties on woods, minerals, and oils, was per-
fectly true. A circumstance was stated by his Noble
Friend on a late occasion which came within his
(Mr. Labouchere's) own knowledge, and which was
alone sufficient to show how important it was, with
reference to the shipping interest, to reduce the duty
on copper ; it was this—a house in London had con-
tracten last year, at the same time, with the British Ad-
miralty and the French Admiralty, to copper. bottom a quan-
tity of vessels, and the French Admiralty had their ship' 15
per cent. under what they were supplied to the English at--
;nay, more than that, he believed that ships which used to come
here to be coppered went now to Rotterdam and Hamburgh,
because they could be done so much cheaper there than here.
the same way with regard to furniture woods, to oils, to fish,
tl
potatoes, and to many other articles to which the Right
:deLGentleman bad referred. The Right Hon. Gentleman
eoro",l4y, said, that in many of those eases in which parties
het of
of protection which had been taken from them, in
of• fact the protection now served diem nothing, because
th,„"mugaters stepped in and deprived them of all the benefit
abjale, 1'44 otherwise derive. He alluded particularly to the
ect of lace, and that reminded him (Mr. La-
thtlehere) of a document which he received when in
e„e' Board of Trade, and which, though a private
utonumication, he had inserted in the records for the benefit
of his
Successors, it was from the lace makers, praying him
reduce the duty on foreign lace ; the smuggling had become
30 notorious that the trade themselves were convinced thr.t it
.I'4l doing them more harm than a moderate duty would do,
'tut that the only protection which they could have against
their foreign rivals would be the imposition of a moderateduty.
did Bight Hon. Gentleman had alluded—though he said he
"ut not wish again to discuss the question—to; the Corn-laws,
m
an is ante of his having been successful in reducing the
rrice a one great necessary of life , he said, look to the duty
!,11 foreign corn, and compare it with what i would have been
Aad the old law been in force." He (Mr. t Labouchere) ad-
?hitted that the nominal duty was less than it would have been,
but then he imagined that the blessings of the sliding scale
etePped in, and that corn was as effectually excluded
:00W as it had been under the old law.—t Hear,
'hear-) No fore:gn corn came into the market now ;
Ithe truth was, that speculators all believed that prices would
and that the duty would fall still lower, and thus the new
'404 lag scale was operating precisely in the same manner as the
°ld scale operated, and the foreign corn was held back, and
none of it came into consumption under the present law.—
(Hear, hear.) -He would not trouble the House with any
further observations; he would only assure the Right Hon.
Gentleman that he should enter into the discussion of this tariff
With every wish to do it justice; he should bring forward no
.; Petty quibbles, no violent and unnecessary opposition. He was
sans-that they would be passing the time unnecessarily if they
attempted to discuss whether an article should be Is. more or
t Hear, hear.) He was satisfied that a right con-
e,' 'tittsion was more likely to be arrived at by the Minister of the
'mown consulting with those concerned in his own office, than
, any discussions in the House. He should, therefore, give
" "of general support to this tariff, though there were one or two
Points on which he differed from the Right Hon. Baronet.
Re
should, however, reserve his opposition to those few points
ip the tariff where he thought right had been violated, or great
;',ediliagnant injustice committed—such as sugar—till another
• ••
time ; but he was sure it was quite unnecessary to discuss in
detail 1,200 articles, which were enumerated in the tariff.—
' (Hear, hear.) On the whole, he viewed the tariff with the greatest
' s.. • 4etiafisotion, and he rejoiced to say, that though the late Govern-
, 'Aunt were prevented from bringing into effect these [measures
'leken they were a Government. that that which he anticipated
, ',,•d taken place, and that they had, and should have, the gra-
s, " atation, as independent Members of the House, of giving
-41thejr support when it should come under the consideration of
• the
_House,—( Hear. )
D'ISRAELI did not think that the Hon. Gentleman
. • '"?Posite had succeeded in making out that claim to those prin-
'', t'ldes of free trade, which of late years had been said to be
ir Peculiar characteristic of the party to which they belonged.
• ;u qu.te clear that in 1780 the Whigs were opposed to free
•'
tomes f
they opposed the introduction of the new measure
„.°l-51r. Pitt into the House of Lords. In the House of Lords
',!F Whigs then had a great preponderance of parliamentary
• ;Zeta, and there was not a single Member of that party who
net record, in the most energetic language, his reprobation
•, to" • the new principle of commerce introduced by dir. Pitt.
L'e,_ of the greatest ornaments to the party in the House of Lords,
• 'flop
BassWaton, in the vigorouslanguage which distinguished him,
teliver eech in the House of Lords against the measure
.
N:r. Pitt p , and concluded with a resolution to the effect that
o'ge
new measure would be dangerous to the State, and was
tlnty' called for by a great emergency, which did not then ex-.
1; t,, Several other bright ornaments of the Whig party enter-
'.
Zed the same opinion; therefore they could not claim the merit
m'living originated these free trade principles, and yet Hon.
ateeliemen opposite hailed with shouts the Right Hon. Ba-
atet's declaration. When the Right Hon. Baronet came into
" he merely. came to support that line which had been
„Pted by his party.
H ME could assure the Hon. Member who had just
':'10:1""en that he was not prepared to go back to the year 1780
:sli.;',taee the progress of free trade principles. The Hon. Mem-
, tead stated that shouts of approbation came from that (the
titian side a thc House) when the Right Hon. Baronet
`4l his opinion that night. He (Mr. Hume) had no
in saying that he for one expressed his opinion
'Ora 1/40'; and why, because he hailed the Right Hon.
.Baronet
tlyenvert, and those around him as converts, to free trade,
4,„:, 1114
,leh he (Mr. Hume) had been a humble advocate. Was
"cause of trium h, no reason of rejoicing He
444 P
• •
nothing political had given him so mueh plea-
tri's`'. It• lt,,* 25 years. Twenty-five years ago he had told them that
Vets Qt.,',l best to go to the cheapest market. He had then heard
ti 44, V 2 eso-lieraen opposite say that such opinions would destroy the
ter4ltrY; and now he found the Cabinet—the Tory Cabinet
'h "s) rail tag forward to advocate those principles. Free trade prin-
were the order of the day. He was delighted to
sie,,7, and to find that so large a majority as that pos-
, niqu by the Right Honourable Baronet was to be
,L'l4l. to a good purpose. He thought the change pro-
. • itt7„_. by the Right Honourable Baronet would cause the
inZ.TvY to rejoice. He had heard with great satisfaction the
• , t-ment of the Right lion. Baronet. He thought it did him
e't credit, and he would not upbraid him with any thing that
I,4l4Pastied, for he hoped time and circumstances had changed
Itio He (Mr. Hume) should be most anxious to give the
t Hon. Baronet all the support in his power. Let him
;! osTofeut those principles, and apply them to corn, and he
, soon find the country relieved from difficulty. He only
• that the Right Hon. Baronet had applied to corn the
ief iftlePrine 1 he
forelp es as had applied in other cases': He must
Corn-laws—the state of the country imperatively
• lot, "1 a change. With respect to. the. tariff, as he had be-
said, he could not withhold from it his approval.
• Mr. GLADSTONE said he did nut rise for the purpose of
• "PlYieg epith di,chaille_.
his to Hon. Gentlemen opposite ; but he would
the eonteroplated
duty by discussing who were the authors of
changes, or by entering into detailed argil:

merits for the purpose of rebutting the statement that the Go
vernment had been converted to principles which it had
hitherto opposed. He must, however, enter his dacided pro-
test against the truth of the allegation, ghat. there had
been a change of principle on the part of the Government
Those who had watched the progress of events (hiring the late
war, and who remembered that his Right Hon. Friend had
supported the measures for the reform of the tariff, which were
introduced by Mr, Huskisson, would see that he could not ba
justly charged with having abandoned his former opinions.—
( Hear, hear.) It had been stated that the principles upon
which the proposed alterations proceeded were historically
associated with the late Administration. Were the time a
fitting one he would be prepared to show that there was no
justice whatever in such a c:aim ; and that, in point of fact,
taking the twenty-seven years which had elapsed since the
war, there were no seven years which had been less fruitful in
commercial legislation than the seven years of the late Admi-
nistration.—( Hear.) He. said this merely in answer to the
allegations on the other side. —( Hear. ) He thought that all
they had to do was to proceed at once to the discussion of the
measures before the House, and not to inquire who had the
honour of first propounding the principles on which they were
founded.—( Hear, hear. )
Mr. ROCHE said, as the representative of the largest
agricultural constituency in Ireland, he could not but feel a
deep interest in the measures propounded by the Government.
He had always been a sincere and open advocate of the prin-
ciples of free trade, but on the present occasion he had great
difficulty in coming to a conclusion. He believed, however,
after full consideration, that the ultimate result of the Corn-
law would be to inflict serious injury in Ireland.—( Hear, hear. )
He could not understand why one principle had been applied
to corn, and another to provisions. If a sliding scale were ne-
cessary to prevent corn from falling to ruinously low prices,
surely it was equally necessary with respect to meat. As ha
thought, however, that many benefits would be conferred by
the proposed alteration, he would not vote against it.
Mr. G. PALMER said that the measures which the late
President of the Board of Trade had brought forward last year
were similar to those which were now proposed by the Right
Hon. Baronet when on the other (the Opposition) side of the
of the House. He (Mr. Palmer) had opposed those measures,
and he would therefore now feel himself bound in conscience
to offer his opposition to the measures proposed by the Right
Hon. Baronet. Had the Right Hon. Baronet stated last year
what his opinions were, very different indeed would have been
the division, and different would have been the result on the
hustings. As for himself (Mr. Palmer), had he avowed himself
the supporter of such measures, he would not have obtained 50
votes. He thought the agriculturists had great reason to be
alarmed at the measures proposed by the Right Hon. Baronet.

Those measures would not be -attended with those bene

ficial results to other classes which were expected, and ulti-
mately the Right Hon. Baronet would be compelled to repeal
the Corn-laws altogether. The same engine which had been
brought forward in the case of the Reform Bill—the multitude
—would be again brought into operation.
Colonel SIBTHORP had listened with great attention to
the speech of the Right Hon. Baronet—a speet.h tnarked by
ingenuity and subtlety, but which he disliked for nothing so
much as for the applause which it elicited from the Hon.
Member for Montrose.—(Mr. Hume.) The Right Hon.
Baronet was charmed by Hon. Members on the ether side,
and particularly by the Hon. Member for Montrose—
( Laughter)—but he ought to be more on his guard.—
(Laughter.) His motto ought to be
" Tirneo Damaos et Bona ferentes."

He thought there were several things which ought to be is-
troduced into the tariff, and which were omitted, especially fat
cattle and meat. He regretted that the Hen. Baronet had yielded
se inuch, and further concessions would be required of him.
On the Order of the Day for the House resulving itself into
a Committee upon the Customs Acts,

Lord HOWiCK said that he would postpone the motion of
which he had given notice.—(Hear, hear.) He begged leave to
give notice that when it was again proposed to go into Corn-
mitt.e on the subject, he would propose it.
The motion was then withdrawn.

Major VIVIAN said that the Noble Lord having with-
drawn his motion, he begged leave " to move for any addi-
tional details which may have been supplied by Mr, Meek to
the Government, relative to the importation of agricultural
produce, salt provisions, &c., or any passage or passages which
may have been suppressed." He found, on comparing the
original Report with that laid on the table, that something
very important to agricultural produce had been kept back.
The observations of Mr. Meek, at the end of the Report, were
well deserving the con§ideration of the agricultural Members.
Mr. Meek there stated that " salt meat, imported from Ham-
burgh, would afford a sufficient profit," and that he thought was
well deserving the attention of Hon. Membirs.

Lord WORSLEY seconded the motion. He thought it
was most important that this information should be laid on the
table, and he hoped Government would not refuse it, as if they
did, it would increase' the panic which the measures already
proposed had caused
The question having been put by the SPEAKER,
Mr. GLADSTONE rose. His great objection to the mo-
tion of the Hon. Gentleman was, that there had been no sup-
pression or omission of information. The only suppression
th it had taken place was the name of a party at Hamhurgh, but
the information he gave had been laid before the House. He
objected to the motion ; first, because it was in the power of
the Government to suppress any information they received if
they thought proper; and, secondly, that, in the present in-
stance, no information had been suppressed.
Mr. M. A TT WOOD thought that all the information which
the Government were in possession of ought to be laid bef ire
the House. So far from there having been an alarming increase
in the price of butchers meat, there had been, with the excep-
tion of the last two years, a gradual decline in the price since
1818. He thought that the best course would be to leave the
matter without interference, and the temporary inconvenience
would cure itself.

Sir R. PEEL was surprised that the Right H'n. Gentleman
went back to 1318, whereas he (Sir R. Peel) had carried
back his comparison of prices only to 1835, since which there
had been a constant and alarming increase of the price of meat.
—( Hear.) With respect to the present motion, there must
be a very gross breach of privilege somewhere.—( Hear, hear. )
The Report of Mr. Meek was prepared for the confidential
information of her Majesty's Ministers only, and they had given
to the House all the substantial information which the Report
communicated.—( Hear, hear.) Communications were re-
ceived from individuals who disclosed all they knew, but
upon the condition that their names should not. b,. disclosed.—
( Hear, hear.) If such conditions were to be disregarded,
there would be an end to all confidence ; and he hoped the
House would not compel the Government to be a party to such
a gross violation of confidence.—( Hear, hear. )
Mr. M. AT CWOOD explained.
Lord J. RUSSELL said, that if the information asked for
would cause inconvenience to the Government, or involve any
breach of confidence, he would be the last person in the House
to support the motion of the Hon. Gentleman who asked for it.
But he thought that the Right Hon. Gentleman the Vice-
President of the Board of Trade, in refusing the production of
the return, had taken away all reason for refusing it,
He did not attribute any blame to the Government, for no
publishing the passages in question, but he thought that now,
that they had been asked for the information, the best course
they could pursue, would be at once to produce it.
Mr. S. WORTLEY said that he could not but regret that,
at a moment when the House was about to enter on the consi-
deration of the important subject of the tariff, Hon. Gentlemen
should have thought it worth their while to waste the time of
the House—( Hear, hear, from the Ministerial benches)—upon
a motion, having for its object nothing but the production of
papers, which, they had been assured by two members of her
Majesty's Government, would convey no useful information.
He called upon the House to proceed at once to the considera •
tion of the great question before them, and not to run after
shadows, which it would be vain to pursue. For his part, he
was satisfied with the explanation given is respect to the
passages in question.
Sir G. GREY felt bound to protest against the course
pursued upon that and every other occasion by Hon. Gentlemen
opposite of imputing a wilful obstruction to the measures of
the Government ( Hear, hear) to Hun. Gentlemen on
that (the Opposition) side of the House, whenever they
thought, upon the eve of discussion of any measure which
was admitted by the Government to be of the utmost import-
ance—whenever they thought it necessary to ask fur informa-
tion which might enable them to come to a right decision.
( Hear, hear.) He was ready to admit that there had been an
unnecessary delay interposed upon that occasion, but he
should say that the whole of the blame of the delay, if blame
there was, rested with her Majesty's Government. They had,
as it appeared to him, unnecessarily resisted the reasonable
proposition of his Honourable and Gallant Friend.
He was disposed to rely upon the statements of the Right
Hun. Gentleman opposite that the extracts were immaterial,
and that no blame was imputable to the Government, but he
thought that the extracts should still be produced for the in-
formation of Hon. Gentlemen who might think it desirable
that they should be communicated to the House. He thought
it established a dangerous precedent if information were re-
fused, not because its production would be prejudicial to the
public service, but because a member of the Government
stated that he did not think it was material. He should say
that if they were to estabiish such a doctrine it might
be a proof of the omnipotence of the Government,
but w' uld at the same time time be a proof of a want of a due
regard for the wishes of Members of that House.—( Cheers. )
Lord STANLEY said, that notwithstanding the charge
made by the Right Hon. and Learned Gent,einan who had just
sat down, against his Hon. Friend the Member for the West
Riding of 'Yorkshire, he could not but say, that it appeared to
him, in reference to thC present 'subject, in the first place. that..
there had been a waste of 1,103E6 time.—( Hear, hear.) In the
next place, the Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman had ex-
hibited a good deal of unnecessary warmth—( Hear, hear)--
in reflecting the imputations which he supposed had been
thrown upon the Gentleman opposite. All that his (Lord
Stanley's) Hon. Friend had said was what he would
himself venture to repeat, that, upon that particular motion,
a good deal more had been said than the motion itself required.
—( Hear, hear.) The papers in question were very immaterial
and valueless. The omission in question was not attributed to
any belief on the part of the Government that the publication of
the passages would be inconvenient to the Government, but
because they were considered confidential and irrelevant.
There were but two passages omitted ; one of those passages
consisting of some half dozen or dozen lines contained a practical
suggestion of Mr. Meek, relative to the conduct of his own
department ; and the other omission was that of
the name of a person who had furnished information. The in-
formation was gi ,en, but the source was withheld. No mate-
rial point was omitted in the Report of Mr. Meek, and all the
important information he had given was communicated to that
House. The Noble Lord (Lord John Russell) had said they
were not to blame for having withheld the passage in the first
instance, but that as it had been asked for, it ought to be
given. The Right Hon. Gentleman said, that although the
information might be immaterial and valueless, yet it would be
establishing a dangerous precedent if the Government were to
refuse to give it to the House.—(Cheers.) He (Lord
Stanley ) 'contended that it would be establishing a must dan-
gerous precedent to grant the papers. These communications
were of a confidential nature, and it was complained that the
Government withheld them. It could only have been by a
breach of confidence that any Member could have become pos-
sessed of those documents ; and was it because the Hon. and
Gallant Member had become possessed of that information in a
manner, not discreditable to himself, but in a manner proving
a breach of confidence to have been committed by other parties,
that the Government were to he called upon to produce these
papers ?—( Cheers.) He should oppose the motion as tending
to establish a bad precedent.—(Cheers.)
Mr. SHIEL said that it might be a bad precedent for the
Government to give such information, and he would tell them
what was a worse precedent ; it was a worse precedent for the
Government to produce to the House of Comm ans a document
purporting to be perfect and complete—(Cheers)—and calling
upon the House to legislate upon the information furnished by
that document, at the very time that they knew that such do-
cument was neither perfect nor complete.—( Loud cheers. )
If that charge were well founded, the Government at least had
been guilty of suppressio veri.—(Cheers and counter cheers.)
The document purported to be perfect ; it purported to be the
report of Mr. Meek; the name of James Meek was attachedto
it; there was no mention made that any passage had been sup.
pressed—there was no note to that effect—(Cheers)—and that
document was made the foundation upon which they were called
upon to make a great change in the commercial system. If
there had been any note made to the effect that certain pas-
sages had been omitted, the Government would have been
justified in refusing to produce the information required. As it
was, their refusal was without justification.
Mr. MUNTZ considered the simple fact of Minister after
Minister getting up and declaring the documents to be of no
value, sufficient to justify him in considering the document
to be of very great importance. Gentlemen opposite were

more interested in the production of these documents than
those on his ( Mr. Muntz's) side of the House, and if they sup-
ported Covernment in their refusal to produce them,
he trusted they would not hereafter reproach that
( Mr. Mun'z's) side of the House with having led them
into a scrape. It would be their own fault if they suffered the
Government to lead them by the nose.—(Cheers and laugh-
ter.) He judged of the importance of these documents more
from the manner of the Right Hon. Gentleman the President
of the Board of Trade, than from the matter of his speech ;
and, judging from the Right Hon. Gentleman's manner, he
should consider that the papers contained important informa-
tion.—( Cheers. )
Mr. CHRISTOPHER did not believe that the Govern-
ment had suppressed any useful information, and there-
fore he could not vote for the motion. (Cheers and
laughter.) He was as desirous of receiving information
as any llonour-ahle Gentleman opposite could possibly be,
and were dissatisfied with the information afforded. More
particularly was he dissatisfied with the contradictory state-
ments of Mr. Meek ; and considering the perfect fairness and
candour with which the Right Hen. Gentleman the President
of the Board of Trade—( Cheers, laughter, and cries of '• Oh,
oh I")—had made his statement, he felt bound to vote with her
Majesty's Government.—( Cheers and laughter. )
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL said this was not the first time
that the Hon. Member for Lincolnshire had come down to
the House, intending to vote against the Government, but
some singular circumstance had always happened—
either a Minister had made a candid statement, or the

conduct of the Opposition. had been such as the Hot).
Member could not approve, so that the Hon. Member had in-
variably ended by giving his vote to the Government.—(Cheers
and laughter.) He (Mr. M. J. O'Connell) did not believe
in the panic with regard to the tariff, but still he thought in-
formation ought to be produced, in order to allay the panic.
In these sorts of cases, honesty was the best policy ; and, there-
fore, he thought the papers ought to be published. It the
Government had any objection to urge against their production,
they might have conveyed an intimation to the Hon. and Gal-
:ant :Member immediately after he had placed his motion on
the paper. They might have communicated to the Hon. and
Gallant Member the substance of the information at all events.
He had never professed the principle of obstruction—(Cheers)
—and how long so ever he might remain in opposition, he
never would; but he trusted that he should never be induced
to withhold his support from a motion like the present. He
was surprised that the Noble Lord the Secretary for the
Colonies should complain of the warmth and temper
exhibited by that (the Opposition) side of the House. The
Noble Lord was the last man in the world who ought to make
such a complaint

" Quis tuferit Gracchos de seditione querentes."—( Cheers. )
Mr. L AMBTON thought the statement of the Govern-
ment piniectly satisfactory, and considered it would be esta-
blishing a dangerous precedent to consent to the motion.
The information must have been obtained by a gross breach of
confidence, and the House ought to be told how the Hon.
Member obtained it; till they heard that they could not decide
Ln opposing her Majesty's Ministers.—( Divide, divide.)
Lord SA NDON wished to ask the Hon. Member fo Bolton
whether the papers were printed by the late Secretary of State
for Foreign Affairs for the use of the House or wit ?—(Dr.
Bowring did not appear inclined to answer.) As it was a very
general practice for Hon. Members to put questions to one
another, he hoped the Hon. Member would condescend to give
an answer.

Air. C. WOOD rose amid loud cries for Dr. Bowring, who,
however, did not reply to the question, and Mr. Wood gave
way to

Lill.. MILES, who said he was the last man to call on the Go-
vernment to bring forward any papers but such as they pleased,but
they must consider what the public would think of the matter.
If no Government interest was compromised, he trusted that
the motion would be agreed to.
Mr. C. WOOD must protest against the doctrine lad down
by the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Vice-President of the
board ab Trade, in the answer he had given to the question.
First, he refused to give the information, because it was of a
confidential nature; but the second part of his answer was, that
it was perfectly immaterial, and he then stated the substance of
it, thus showing that the first part of his answer was without
foundation.—( Divide, divide. )
Mr. SHAW begged the House to consider the delay which
the question under the consideration of the House ;,had
already experienced, and called upon Honourable Mem-
bers not to delay it longer by motions of this sort, more espe-
cially when he was sure that the Government had not withheld
anything which was at all relevant or of the least importance.
Major VIVIAN rose to explain, but the cries of "Divide"
were so loud as to. render his observations but imperfectly
heard. He said that lie had received the information on which
he acted from some person not connected with the Govern-
ment. He believed it had come into his possessioa from the
negligence of a party connected with that department ; but he
(.Major Vivian) not being connected with any of them, thought
he was not committing any breach of confidence.—( The groans
and cries of "Divide" had here risen to such a pitch as to com-
pel the Hon. Member to resume:his seat. )
Several other Hon. Members attempted to speak, but they
were not allowed t.r proceed
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the House
livid, d

For the motion
- Against it
Majority
The House went into Committee pro forma, the Chairman
reported progress, and ►he House resumed.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL wished to know if the tariff was
brought forwar•l on Friday, when the Income-tax Bill would be
read a third time.

Sir R. PEEL said, he proposed to take the third reading of
the Income-tax after Whitsuntide. He had proposed to take
the tariff on the earliest day, and therefore he named Friday.
He had also named Friday for the Income-tax, and he should,
therefore, postpone it till after Whitsuntide. Supposing the
essential points of the tariff to be agreed to, he thought that the
House would ha•re no objection to name a day for the third
reading of the Income-tax Bill.
Lord J. RUSSELL said he had no objection to the course
the Right lion. Gentleman proposed—viz., that they should
make some progress in the tariff, and then proceed with the
Income-tax. They certainly had not made much progress in
the Committee that night. He ( Lord J. Russell) was glad to
find that the Right Hon. Gentleman had made progress that
night, as his statements had been made upon a broad principle,
for the principle would apply equally to sugar and corn, and
this was really a great progress.—( A laugh.)
Sir R. PEEL said if the Noble Lord wished it he would
name Monday week or Friday week ; he had no objection which.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL thought it would be satisfactory to
the country to know that a day was appointed.
Sir R. PEEL then would say Friday week.—(Cries of
Monday.')