The Sun.
London, England, 1827-05-08 00:00:00

11

No. 10,814.

to the end of the Session, without knowing the Govern-
ment? I cannot but look back to the names of Pitt and
Fox ; and- looking at those names, I would ask, would
they ever have entered into such a Government as
this, under a declaration that it stands as a Provisional
Government? Now, if the Noble Lord will stand up and
state in the face of the House, that that is not the case,
then I will waive the calling for those papers, which I shall
now propose to have brought forward ; but, if not, I will
day after day, and time after time, do my duty to my
country with respect to what I conceive to be so con-
temptible an imposition on every honest man. That
is my firm and honest opinion—(Much laughter)—(a long
pause)—l will go a little further before I sit down—
(Loud and long continued laughter. )—lf the state
of things continues, I shall certainly feel it my
duty, although I do not profess to be able to
prove before this House what I have .:card, yet I shall feel
it my duty to submit to this House the reports that
are iu cireulation.—(bursts of laughter.)—Now, in respect
to those reports nothing is so easy as a simple and distinct
contradiction ; and if I hear that contradiction given,
I will not only apologise to your Lordships for having
unnecessarily occupied your time, but acknowledge that
I have been guilty:of a most unpardonable indiscretion—
(Hear !)—if not, I will state to this House, and to the
country, all the details that have came to my ears, with re-
spect to this provisional Government. And though I may be
arrested in tbis House—though I may be attempted to be
written down by the vile and venal ;-,,ess of this country—
though that press may ridicule me, and endeavour to place
me in a situation which, I will venture to say, would be
very painful to any man betbre the public—(Laughter.)
whether I am arrested in this House, or put down by a
venal press I say—(Hear, hear, from the Opposition, and
great laughter.)—l will tell them both that all their satire
passes by me as the idle wind, which I regard not
—(continued laughter)—and I will stand up here and
distinctly state those reports which I have heard, and
which may, perhaps, induce Noble Lords in this place,
and persons in another place, to deny distinctly what
is alleged in public.—(Loud cries of hear.)—lt is said
that a certain great and eminent Barrister did make certain
overtures, not only with respect to himself and his party,
but with respect to a Noble Marquis and his party, to the
first Lord of the Treasury. I state what I now say from
mere rumour—(hear hear, from the Opposition benches)
—but if it be not true, nothing can be so easy as to deny it.
But it is stated, that those overtures were received and
put up into his pocket. It is stated that no communication
of those overtures was made to his colleagues. Subsequently
the First Lord of the Treasury went to Windsor, and while
there, as I am informed, certain use was made of those
communications ; but without entering into what passed
at Windsor,. I will say that the result has proved what
took place. On a future occasion I may perhaps go into
details, but at present we see the Learned Advocate to
whom I have alluded, and the Noble Marquis too,
ranged on the other side of the House.—( Hear,
hear. )—From what I can understand too, the
colleagues of the First Lord of the Treasury were ignorant
of all this till a fortnight afterwards, and entirely igno-
rant of any ace having been made of the overtures
at Windsor. Now you may talk of a Cabal, but if those
reports are proved, there is another word to be made use of,
which I must call something like intrigue. If those reports
be true, that the Noble Lord should have received those over-
tures, and that subsequently the negotiation should have
proved their effect, I do think the country will record
something like what occurred in our annals in the year 1609. ,
When the Secretary of State for the Home Department I
heard of this communication, he expressed his surprise that
it should have been in the poss=:ian of the Right 11
Gentleman for ten or fourteen days, and yet be kept secret
by hint. I have no information on these points.—
( Cheers and laughter. )—I admit that I have no information
I declare to my God that I have none.—(Continued laugh-
ter.)—l speak entirely from report, and until that be un-
contradicted, lam bound to believe it. If what 1 charge
these Noble Lords with be untrue, I will throw myself on
their indulgence, and most heartily beg their pardon ;
but if the provisional Government ex:st, I will sift oil
th.. circumstances, and trust that in the end we shall see
ranged against us an intelligent Administration. As to
the Noble Marquis who has lately left this side of
the House, lie is like a fish in the water, propelled by his
tail, for I understand that he has been urged on by the
tail of his party. The Noble Marquis then proceeded to
express his regret that a Noble Marquis, who lately held
the House in admiration of his talent, should have de-
stroyed that high opinion which they had entertained
of him, by consenting to act as second at the op.
polite side of the House. It was a matter of surprise
that the Marquis of Lansdown—(Loud cries of Order)
—that the Noble Marquis of Lansdown, who was
leader of the Opposition, should be now stationed as he is
on the Ministerial Benches. The Noble Marquis con-
cluded by moving for several returns, of which the
followinglis the substance:—

A Return of the Appointments in the Foreign Depart-
ment at home and abroad, including the name, station,
and emoluments of the persons appointed, together with the
total expenditure of the Foreign Department.
Several Returns connected with the expenditure of the
Foreign Department.
A Return of the names, rank, and station of persons allowed
to retire upon pensions, specifying the circumstances under
which they have received their pensions.
A Return of the persons appointed to situations in the
Foreign Department at home and abroad, specifying the
cause of the appointments.
Lord DUDLEY, after defending his conduct in accept-
ing office, which he did when the services of every subject
were more than usually necessary to his Sovereign, express-
ed a hope that the Noble Marquis would withdraw his
motion for the present, and give nu:;:ice for a future day.
He pledged himself to their Lordships that every exertion
should be made meanwhile to furnish the required infor-
mation, if possible.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said that as
the papers were made out quarterly, no great delay
could arise i❑ furnishing them. He had, however,
no disposition to press the matter, but he was deter-
mined in getting at all necessary information. The
Noble Marquis heard that great alterations were con-
templated at the Foreign Office, amongst other things he
learned that it was intended to build a magnificent house
for the Foreign Secretary.—(Hear, hear.)
After some further conversation the Noble Marquis with-
drew his motions, with notice that he would renew them
on Thursday next.
The Earl :if WINCHILSEA informed their Lordships
that he had not made up his mind as to the day when
lie should submit his motion respecting the State of the
Nation. He would be prepared, however, to inform their
Lordships, very shortly, what time he should fix.

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that he deprecated discussion on this question. He had
voted against Catholic Emancipation ; but he saw no rea
son why those Gentlemen who favoured the question should
not choose their own time, and what would best suit their
own convenience, to introduce the question. With respect
to the principles of the Administration which now exists,
lie wished some opportunity would arise, when the Right
Hon. Gentleman would declare to the House the nature
and extent of those changes which have taken place. Till
that time he would suspend his opinion. At the same
time, he hoped the time of the House would not again be
occupied in this manner.
Lord ALTHORP thought it incumbent on him to take
this opportunity of stating his opinion, on the subject of
the late Ministerial arrangements. He had at first some
doubts on the subject, but was now prepared to state that
these doubts had been completely removed.—(Hear, hear
—lt was impossible not to see that they had now a straight
plain course before them, which was one great benefit &-
rived from the recent arrangements. He, and those whe
thought with him, had no other alternative than to support
those who, upon the whole, were liberal and enlightened
Statesmen; or, by opposing them, to make way for the
introduction into the Administration of the country, o'
Toryism in its most hideous form.—(Hear, hear.)—
He had differed from the Right Honourable Gentleman at
the head of the Administration cti the question of Par-
liamentary Reform, and the repeal of the Test and Corpo -
ration Acts, and he differed from him on these questions
still. But he should he rgad, if he were to wish to throw
the Right Hon. Gentleman and his Administration out of
office on account of that difference, when he could onh
have in their stead persons from whom he differed, not
only on those questions, but on every other—(Hear, hear.)
—With respect to the Catholic Question, he had thought
and still thought, that the Emancipation of the Catholic,
ought to be brought forward as a Government measure.
But here again, if he were to succeed in turning out the
Right Hon. Gentleman, he would only have in the places
of him and his colleagues, persons who were on principle
hostile to Catholic Emancipation, and who would, nuclei
any circumstances, refuse to make it a Government mea-
sure—(Hear, bear.)

Mr. COLBORNE concurred with the Noble Lord who
spoke last, in the sentiments and opinions which he hat;
expressed ; and, with respect to the finances, he agreed
that everything should be done, for this year, as quiett,
as possible, since the subject would probably next yea]
be fully investigated by a Committee cf that House. 1-h
had always felt considerable confidence in the Administra-
tion as recently arranged, and that confidence had beet
not a little strengthened by the tone and temper of the
late debates.—(Hear, hear.)—As to those v;ho had retiree:
from office, he thought it a matter of very little conse-
quence whether they had resigned collectively or not
but they did resign either collectively or separately, and
were not turned out; and, besides, it did not come witl
the best grace from them to dwell so much on difference,
of opinion among the members of the present Adminis-
tration, because it was well known what differences o'
opinion prevailed in the Cabinet to which they themselve,
belonged. With respect to what had been said by the
Honourable Member under the gallery about the Whigs,
it might be justly said, that, for some years past, the
Whigs had acted a most honourable part. He regretted
the tone and temper which had been evinced in the recent
debates—whether proceeding from resentment, or disap-
pointment, or whatever other motive, he di cl not not know,
but he could not help observing, that where there was
much want of temper there could not be much discreti,
—(Hear)—and the Gentlemen in Opposition were acting
in a way than which none could be worse for themseives

i,ord NUGENT.—As some in that House had com-
menced a systematic opposition against the Ministry, he
hoped he might be allowed shortly to aL.,.te the reasons why
he supported them. His opinions on the Catholic Ques
tion had been often mentioned, and he had earnestly de.
sired that the new Ministry should stand pledged to brim
forward the Catholic Question as a Government measure;
but on looking round the Cabinet, he saw no clear indica-
tions of any such pledge, and lie had been prepared to oc-
cupy his usual station on the Opposition side ; and it was
not till Tuesday last that he had altered his intention, ante
he had heard the speech of the Right Hon. Member fot
Oxford, the late Secretary of State for the Home Depart-
ment. That speech told him that the Right Hon. Gentle-
man considered the chance of carrying the Catholic Ques-
tion as an insuperable objection in his mind to any Go-
vernment, and that what he would consider a good
Government must stand in some measure pledged t(
deny the Catholics what it was wise in policy and just
in the name of God to grant them. He found that
the Right Honourable Gentleman could only be sa-
tisfied with a Government which stood pledged against
the Catholic Question. An Honourable Gentleman,
had asked what was the bond of union between tht
Reformers and the Right Hon. Gentleman at the head of
the Administration. To this he replied, that the present
Opposition themselves were the bond of union, the prin-
cipal bond of union, among all those who supported the
Catholic Claims. He and they who agreed with him ha,:
been twitted about Parliamentary Reform, and the Test
and Corporation Acts. He was sorry that the Right Hon.
Gentleman at the head of the Administration had thought

it necessary to declare that he would oppose the repeal o!
the 'fest and Corporation Acts; but his opinions on that
matter remained unaltered, and he would always maintair
those principles upon which he had acted when he sat or
the other side. But the Catholic Question was by far the
greatest question of the present day, and therefore both h(
and his friends were deeply interested in the support of this
Government, the head of which was favourable to Catholic
Emancipation. And on this account they were deeply in•
debted to Mr. Canning for the loftiness of his mind and the
soundness of his heart. In the meantime, the present Ad-
ministration had his full confidence, and he trusted woule
continue to act so as to deserve the confidence of the bes;
and most valuable portion of the community.
Mr. MABERLY, adverted to the financial measures of
which he had given notice, and to which he would most
certainly have called the attention of the House before
now, had it not been for the altered circumstances which
had taken place, which might render a change in the mode
of proceeding desirable. He had been taunted on thi,
subject, and could no longer defer his explanation. It ha(i
been said of some Gentleman, that he had willingly sacri-
ficed his principles ; that was extraordinary language, and
language which certainly did not apply to him. He had
given notice of a Motion relative to the Sinking Fund,
the Dead Weight, and in short, to the whole of the funde(l,
and refunded debt of the country ; and he still maintained
that an inquiry into these matters and into the whole con-
dition of the revenues and experebture of the country was

I,

tr_

•
NS.

*,-., • .n• N., .k.... t,,
House, more particularly as the attest) of tl4-4Ulselials
been a second time diverted from th`li:btaiee
.:,.
the speech of my Noble Friend, as I I 1317'. ... AO.
him. lam pleased, also, with the opportelltY,of Answer-
ing the Hon. Gentleman who spoke last," and answering
him on what he is courteously pleased to say, he does not
put to me as a question, but as a recommendation only,
and in respect to which the House, I think, may probably
be glad to hear me state my present intentions. Now, Sir,
it is undoubtedly my intention to propose early in the next
Session of Parliament, a Committee of Finance, similar to
those which were appointed three several times in Mr.
Pitt's administration; after him in 1807, during Mr. Per-
ceval's Government ; and again in 1817, on the motion of
Lord Bexley.—(Hear, hear.)—lt is my intention to pro-
pose such a Committee, and to submit to its consideration
the whole state of our revenue. I ought, in justice to add,
that it was fully the intention, during the last Session of
Parliament, of my Bight Hon. and now my Noble Friend

(Viscount Goderich) to lay before this House such a pro-
position, and that intention would have been executed ham
not public events taken so extraordinary a course as to drive
him, at that time, from his purpose ; and had not the state
of the country been subsequently such as to preclude any
immediate expectation of bringing such a measure to a
successful issue. lam the rather glad that that measure
was postponed, because, without desiring, by this state-
ment, improperly to raise the hopes of the country, I du
feel justified in saying, that its condition is gradually,
slowly, but perceptibly improving.—(Cheers.)—Under
these circumstances, whatever may be the ultimate disposi-
tion of this House, after we have looked our financial situa-
tion fully in the face, and after this Committee shall have
brought its labours to a clo►e, I shall hest discharge my
duty, and best consult the interests of the country, by keep-
ing all things this year as quiet as we possibly can, by
avoiding all resort to extraordinary measures, and by shun-
ning every thing which would promote agitation, or excite
speculation of any kind in the community. Hat.lue,-
stated thus much, in the hope that it will not be un-
acceptable to the House, I shall, in the next place, pro-
pose to proceed on Friday, in Committee, with the votes
-f Supply; and I have to state to the House, that unless
any accidental cause shall arise to prevent me, it ha my
present intention to submit to the House, my financial
statement for the year, before the Whitsun holidays. (Cheers.
I will proceed with the votes in the Committee of Supply,
next Friday evening, and then will be the legitimate
opportunity for all those who have made up their minds
to evince their loyalty to the King, and their anxiety for•
the interests of their country, by postponing the supplies--
(Loud cheers)—to proceed with their opposition—.
(Cheers)—then I say will be the legitimate opportunity,
not when the motion before you is merely to postpone the
Committee. I should hope Sir that this will be the last of
these extraordinary debates, and that the House, seeing
that an Hon. and Gallant Officer has a motion before it,
relative to the shipping interest, and that so many gentle-
men connected with that interest are knocking at its doors,
it will, at least, condescend to hear them.-- :leers.)
Lord MILTON hoped that he might still be permitted
to say a few words, the design of which was to express hie
grateful satisfaction at the intention of the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman to refer the state of the finances of the country to a
Committee of that House. This was a measure which
was now imperiously demanded; and unless the Right
Hon. Gentleman could, with the aid of that Committee,
find means to make the Revenue commensurate with the
expenditure, or the expenditure with the Revenue, the
calamities of the country, instead of being relieved, would.
!se greatly aggravated. His Noble Friend near him (Lord
Althorp) had exactly expressed his sentiments with regard
•o the present Goverment, and in what his Noble Friend
`mad said he fully concurred.
Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN had no hesitation in say-
ng that it was his wish to support the present Govern-
nent, and hoped that their measures would be such as to
'table him conscientiously to support them. This much
ought it desirable for him to state, being one of the
2epresentatives of the capital of the kingdom.
Sir H. HARDINGE did not understa"3 the myste-
pious and shuffling r.-anner in which the Catholic Ques-
tion was attempted to be smothered.
The petition was then ordered to be printed.

Colonel DAVIES withdrew a notice of his which •tool
..n the Order Book for Wednesday neat, fur the passing of
11,,..olutioi1—ths'.. in future zhe Estimat,a c' fr.e year
ihould, previously to th it being printed, be referred to a
Select Committee.

highly expedient, and it was his intention to do every thing
in his power to see that point fully followed up. Certainly
lie would not willingly sacrifice his principles—whether
the Right Hon. Gent. was or was not opposed to such an
inquiry he then did not exactly know; but at the saint
time, he distinctly stated, that he would not he satisfied with
the semblance of an inquiry. But if the Right Hon. Gent.
would promise such a Committee of Inquiry as he con-
tended for early in the next year, lie would, in the mean-
time, suspend his objections to the Estimates, and go along-
with him in his financial measures. He did not insist upon
an answer from the Right Hon. Gent. at present, as that
would perhaps be hardly fair ; but he did most earnestly re
commend this course to him, as one which would give great
satisfaction to the country, and prove no slight means of es-
tablishing his Government. With respect to the question M
Parliamentary Reform, he had voted for reform; and if the
question were brought forward with the real intention of pro-
moting that object, he would most strenuously support it.—
But if it were brought forward plainly with the view of em-
barrassing the Government, and putting an end to the pre
sent Administration, then he would move the previous ques-
tion upon it ; for he did not think himself called upon
rashly to lend his aid to the destruction of an Administra-
tion in which all the talents and all the discretion of the
House were united, to an extent that had hardly been ever
before witnessed.—(Hear, hear. )_Among whom was In
likely to find the greatest liberality in carrying his designs
into effect ? Certainly among the present Administration.
One Hon. Member had been against the postponement o
his propositions on the present occasion, although his
object in doing so was to procure a more perfect inquiry,
and, indeed, formerly, some objected to all inquiry, and
nothing would serve them but to plunge headlong into all
manner of ,xpence and extravagance. This choice, how-
ever, was made, and he certainly would support the Right
Hon. Gentleman and his Administration.—(Hear.)
Mr. CANNlNG—Although it was certainly my deter-
mination not to be provoked to take any part in this dis
cussion, arising on extraneous matters, I am yet, not pro-
voked indeed, but induced, Sir, by the speech of the Lion.
Member for Abingdon, to address a few words to the

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