The Sun.
London, England, 1829-03-07 00:00:00

value of ten pournta,,, there is no attempt whatever at se-
eari ty. however, is bat a half measure. —(Cheers. )
111jith that. tingir-exceptiorr, And with the exception that
Ciitholietiare nut eligible fit Oar office of Lord Lieutenant
at "(eland, find `Levrt Ghatteellor or Keeper of the Great
Seatof,Englattd, t, iWin fact a measure of untpia-
unetnitlit`i '.Emancipation..--•-(Cheers.)—To
ineastite-efthat sort I cur never esscrit.—(Cheers.)
Mr. HART DAVlSopposeil the Bill generally, hut if
it must pass, he approved of the disfranchisement of the
forty-shilling freeholders.
r. B. COOPER thought the cement of the Church,
and ,f the people, ought to be obtained on the question in-
volvin.7. the abrogation of the fundamental constitutional'
larva of the country.
Mr. C. PELHAM proposed the following as an amend-
Silent, if the forms of the House would admit it—" That
this House returns its humble thanks to his Majesty for
that part of his most gracious Speech which refers to the
unman Catholics,--that removing the safeguards of the
Con.titutinn hay repealing the Acts of the 30th of Charles
artA tq King William, would he to endanger the just
vp‘eete:itative of his Majesty, and to invade the fnntlaittental
kifshts of tic people."
'le gneatinn Ireitig Loudly cancel lbt on all sides.
Jr.* PEEL ruse to reply. Although much of the ilis-
covslim on the prefinition I had last night the honour to
introduce has had a personal reference to myself, I should
mot have availed myself of a reply merely on that entasidera-
ion. The interests involved in this question are so im-
portant and so complicated, that any topic of individual
soncei n must become a matter of comparative ihsignifi-
c.nce_ Of all that applies to myself there is but one point
I need notice, and during the remainder of these discus-
eirttVf, this is positively the last occasion on which I will ad-
vert to any point that is merely personal. Having ex-
plained all the reasons for the change in the course I for-
merly adopted, and the circumstances which placed me in
the situation of having to prOliose this question as a Minis-
ter of the Crown, if that explanation be not satisfactory I
cannot help I have nothing to add, and I cannot con-
sent again to divert the attention of the House from mat-
tees of natelb higher and public concern. But one question
was ;Int by the Noble Member for Anglesea (Lord Ue-
toiAge), to which I wish to give an answer. He com-
plains of my change, and of the course I have pursued ;
tint, if I mistake not, that Noble Lord will find in his
own family honourable Vtamples of a similar alteration of
opinion,
Lord UXBRIDGE rose with some haste, and askel tl e
Hight Hon. Gentleman whether he ref. rred to the recent
eondttet of his father ? if so, he most strongly objected
to iinth an allusion.

lie a debt, I say at once let us pay 20s. in the pound. If
we pay 15s. in the pound, the question will remain opeß

until we have paid the whole. But it will be because we
have paid 20s. in the pound we shall lie able to resist the
extottion of a single farthing more. Another objection is,
that this measure is unaccompanied by securities—at least,
by adequate securities. What are the securities in the mea-
sure? Art We to settle the Catholic Question, or are ws
not? If we are not to settle it on any terms, of course there
is a fatal and prep minary objection to this proceeding. If it
be admitted that it is right to settle it, and if some securities
would give satisfaction, a!: least I.t us hear what those secu-
rities are=(Haar.)—lf I had proposed the incorporation
of the Roman Catholic religion with the State—if I had
proposed to give a qualified establishment, or to impose on
the Crown the responsibility of appointing Catholic Digni-
taries, and entering into a spiritual intercom se with the See
of Rome, 1 have much doubt whether I should not have
been told, that so fat from giving any security, I was pro-
posing what was incOntisteet with the Coronation oath,
and ineontiatent with the maintenance of the Established
Chinch. I have much doubt whether the proposal of se-
curities of that nature would not have been viewed by
people of this country with greater jealousy than the pro-
posal to consider the Roman Catholic religion on the foot •
ing of dissent. When I look, as I have been occupied in
looking at the petitions of Irish Protestants, I find in them
the most extraordinary coincidence. I have examined
them from all parts of the country, and they demand una
voce three particular securities. The terms in which
these securities are demanded are exactly similar, and
whether I read the petitions from Cork, Armagh, Lei-
trim, Fermanagh, Wicklow, from the Bishop and Clergy
of Dromotta fltin Wexford, and Athlone, I find them, in
this respect, all alike. A fact so similar as almost to lead
to the conclusion that the demand for these securities was
suggested to the petitioners by the same common bead, and
that they originated in the same common swarm —( Hear,
hear. )—There are only three securities pointed out : —l. To
suppress the Catholic As-ociation-2. To correct the
evils of the Elective Franchise-3. To abolish the Order
of Jesuits. Now the Bill I propose to introduce will effect
all these objecte; so that it conforms precisely with
what is required by the Protestants of Irelnad.—(Hear,
hear.)—ll these securities be necessary, and if the neces-
sity of them be so urgent as it is described in the peti-
tions, let me ask this question :—Would the Protestants of
Ireland have had a chance of getting these three securities,
unless his Majesty's Speech had recommended concession ?
Look at the division of last year, and look at the division
of this night, from which the temper of the House may be
Judged, and I will ask any man whether it would have
been possible to have procured any one of these three secu-
rities, which, by the almost unanimous voice of the Pro-
testants of Ireland, are deemed essential for their safety in
the present condition of their country, sinless his Majesty's
Speech had recommended the consideration of the claims.
I must say, that notwithstanding so much of this debate
has turned upon the observations I made last night, I have
not had an answer to the question I put, " What do you
propose to do under the present circumstances?"—(Hear.)
—Much might be said—my Hon. Friend (the Member for
Dublin) may give us an able disquisition on what passed
in 1688, hut depend upon it that is not sufficient in the
present eondition of the world. Something most lie
done, and what that something should be is a question to
which I have had no answer. It is not an answer to tell
me, " form a united government, and resist the claims."
Some practical step must
,be taken, and what step shall
that be? The only attempt at an answer has been " dis-
solve the Pas liament, leaving the Association existing, and
the elective franchise without change.—(Much cheering.)
Where are the Ministers who would advise a dissolution ?
(Cheering from all sides.)—Shall we leave the existing
causes of agitation to operate in a tenfold degree, by in-
timating that notwithstanding all the hopes escited by a
neutral Government and a divided Parliament, an ex-
tinguisher is to be put upon every chance of evesstual
emancipation ? Thus you add to the excitement ; and,
in my opinion, you must leave the Association in pos-
session of its present power. I say in my opinion,
because all the Law Officers of the Crown have
stated that the Common Law is inadequate, and we
find that the practical Statute of 1825 was insuffi-
sient. Thus cir!.unistanced, I maintain that no majo-
rity you can gst among the English Members will
avail. Front Ireland you may have 100 Members, all des
voted to Emancipation ; and with these against you, it
mothd be impossible to conduct the local Government of
Ireland. Whatever majority you may possess in Great
Britain, it is not fire the public interest that every subsist-
ing tie between landlord an tenant in Ireland should be
dissolved, and that the illegitimate and dangerous influ-
ence of the Prie,thooil should be established. If you
had 90, or even 80 Irish Representatives, returned on
the Roman Catholic interest, and on the interest of the
Roman Catholic Association, formed as a compact body,
and acting upon a uniform plan, determined to embarras
the Government by their nightly attendance, or other-
wise, to act in opposition to any measures suggested, I
know you might carry those measures; but I say
again, that no Government so circumstanced, could con-
duct the local administration of Ireland. The whole
of the constituent body, and the whole of the represen-
tative body of that country, would be united in resist-
ance. I asked the question yesterday, and I ask again to-
day, when you recommend measures of coercion, to put
down the great and dangerous power now exerted by the
Roman Catholics, how do you propose to conduct the civil
Government of Ireland in those three provinces in which
the proportion of population is 4,250,000 Catholics to
7.'i9,000 Protestants? In every system of Government
there must be nice gradations and nice dependencies, by
which the affairs of the country are conducted ; and in
what way are these to lie observed ? You must either re-
sort to the army of England, or to the constabulary force
of Ireland, for the purpose of carrying on the machinery of
Government. Suppose you were to endeavour to in-
crease the military force..--1 tell you that you cannot
apply a greater force than is now engaged in the Go-
vernment of Ireland. I state this as a fact, that in the
course of the last summer, five-sixths of the Infantry
force of the United Kingdom were employes in conducting
the Government of Ireland—(Cheering.)—It has been en-
gaged, not in suppressing violence with whsch the State
was threatened, but chiefly for the purpose of interposing
between hostile parties, who in many situations were
threatening each other. I say further, that you cannot
calculate on what may be the consequences of beginning by
a declaration that you will resist all further concession—it
would produce a most violent re-action ; anti you would
he gradually driven to this alternative, that, instead of rest,
ing the civil and social pyramid on its base, you must re-
verse it, and place it on its apex. Unwilling as I am,
with my Hon. Friends, to repeal those laws which give an
exclusive character of Protestantism to the Legislature, I
believe that the Roman Catholics have created a power by
the increase of numbers—the advance of education, which
we have year after promoted, which cannot now be
effectually resisted. Their numbers, wealth, and educa-
tion, are backed, besides, by their majority of a Pro-
testant Parliament repeatedly deciding in their favour,
while the Protestant mind is disunited. There is then, in
my judgment, less danger in incorporating the Catholics
with the State than in excluding, and I am satisfied that
you will thereby rather diminish than increase their politi-
cal influence. Ido not say that the present condition of
affairs in Ireland is the act of ;his year, of the last year,
of the list two or three years, or of any particular Go-
vernment; but I maintain that, item the course of events,
and above all front the eloquence employed in their behalf,
and from this overwhelming fact, that four Houses of Com-
mons have determined in their favour—there is a spirit of
union and compact among the Catholics, which, in my
view, we cannot dissolve, but by permitting political in-
fluence to operate upon them as it does upon others, thus
destroying the existing bond of connection. Let it be re-
membered, also, that it is a bond not merely uniting the
Catholics—there is an alliance between every difference of
religious opinion—between superstition and scepticism, and
I believe that alliance will be dissolved as soon as these
grievances shall cease to press on the Roman Catho-
lics. But Ido not believe that we could devise any laws,
supposing the Roman Catholics to be supported by a power-
ful party in Parliament, and a large constituent body out
of Parliament, that would lie sufficiently coercive—to use
the words of an Hon. Friend—to check and controul the
volatile and delusive spirit with which we should have to
deal. In conclusion, I only repeat that I have heard no
answer to my question, " What other course could be pur•
sued but that which I recommend ?"—(continued
cheering.)
The Bari of UXBRIDGE explained.
The Gallery was then cleared fora division. The num-
bers were—
For the Resolution 348
Against it

Mr. PEEL—What I have stated, I intended to men-
tion with perfect respect ; and if I am wrong, I beg the
Noble Lord's pardon. I thought I rzeollerted that the
brother of the Noble Lord, in a rnahnev which did him
the highest credit, last Sessieny avowed a similar change
of opinion. I thought he said, that having been in Ire-
land, he had seen vsaaton for that change—(blear, hear).—
and I only wished to notice it to his honour ; but if I am
wrong, I can only say that lam sorry for it. No Noble
Loot laid asked why, in 1827, I did not think the source
which-I took in 1828, and why I did not consent in 1827
to assist Mr. Canning either in carrying on his Govern-
ment, or the atljuetment of the Catholic Question? To
that question I reply, that between 1827 and 1828, there
was this material difference—in 1827, at the time when
Mr. Ginn* made that propssal to me, the question hail
been discussed in the House of Commons of the new
Parliament, and I had been in a majority ; in 1828
I was a minority, and in 1828 I took the ci urse
I bed eaeen in 1825. 1 beg to refer the Noble Lord to
the &bete in 1827, and he will find that I did state
the course I had pursued in 1825 precisely as I molted
it last night. I quote my wools from the usual record.—
" I waited on my Noble Friend, then at the head of the
Government, and told him, that personally it was painful
ter me to disconnect myself from those whom 1 esteemed
and respected ; but that having been left in a minor ity in
that branch of the Legislature of which I was a Illerlitter, I
anxiously desired to be relieved froth my situation. The
reply of my Noble Fiiend was, that my retirement would
Oeterrnine his own, and I finally censented to remain in
office,—my Noble Friend declining that lie deemed it of
the highest importance that the Secretary of Stale for the
reeparttnent should possess opinions as much as pr,-
sibla in accordance with those of the Prime Minister.—
Me represented to me the difficulty he should experience in
filling up the situation, and, in short, that my retirement
must determine his own. 1 was thus induced to
waive my wish for retirement, and to remain until a new
Parliament hail pronounced an opinion upon theareatques-
tion which interests and agitates Ireland." In 1827, there-
fore, t he House of Commons decided with me in favour of re-
sistance to the Claims, and in 1828 the same House took a
eifierent course ; I was left in a minority, and I determined
no Linger to remain responsible for the conduct of the
affairs of Ireland. The Noble Lord will find, that Mr.
Canning did full justice to my motives. During the
'sbole course of the discussion my Right Ilon. Friend ad-
mitted, that it was impossible fur me to joinhim, and he
used these expressions in the course of his speech :—" To
begin with the more agreeable part of my task, the speech
of my Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Peel), who has in one or
two instances appealed to my testimony for the confirma-
tion of so:ne parts of his narrative of his own conduct, I
confirm them in the fullest degree. I can bear testimony,
that throughout the discussions that have taken place since
Parliament adjourned, 1 have kept up with my Right
lion. Nieto' the most constant intercourse—that through-
out I hava found in lint the same candour and sincerity,
the expreesion of the same just feelings, and the uniform
exhibition of the same high principle to which he has laid
claim in the speech which he has this night delivered.—
I the House, that they much mistake the position
in which I have the honour to stand, who believe that po-
sition to be one of gratified ambition or of unalloyed satis-
faction. From the beginning of these discussions I fore-
saw—both of us foresaw—that they must terminate in our
mutual separation. Would to God that separation may
be but for a time ! Had the question been merely between
my Right Hon. Friend anti myself, and lead it been
to he decided by his retirement or by mine, I do most
solemnly declare it should have been decided by the latter."
I retain my opinion still, that it would not have been for
the advantage of the King's service, and I believe also, that
that was Mr. Canning's opinion—that he should have been
here at the head of the Government advocating a settlement
of the question, and that I should likewise have been here,
Secretary for the Home Department, opposed to him, and
backed by a majority of four. In 1828, when I proposed
to retire, leaving been in a minority, I said, " The time is
now come, the new House of Commons having decided in
favour of the claims, and the House of Lords being opposed
to concession, when an attempt must be made to settle the
question, and to that attempt I will lend myself." With
reference to entirely another matter, I find a passage in a
speech by Lord Liverpool, which contains his Lordship's
opinion, as to the probability of forming a united Govern-
ment. Lord Liverpool stood justly high in the estimation
of the country; he had conducted its affairs for a longer
period than any Prime Minister, during the last century.
His memory is now held in respect, and the people had
confidence in his opinion, at that ()fan experienced and ho-
nourable Statesman, and be thought that no Govern:ru nt
could he formed, at th et time prepared to offer a united and
unqualified resistance.—(The Right Hon. Gentleman here
read a passage from the speech of Lord Liverpool, to the
tenor he had stated.)—l believe Lord Liverpool himself
declared, that to any Government formed on the prin-
ciples of exclusion, he would not be a party. Therefore,
when the Noble Lord and others speak of the facility with
which a Protestant Government might have been formed,
they must dispute and deny the authority of Lord Liver-
pool. My lion. Friend who spoke from the upper bench
and several more, have deprecated any precipitate proceed-
ing upon this Bill. Now, apart from any considerations
connected with discussions for the last sixteen years, on the
principle and details of the measure, I ask whether, with
respect to this single isolated proceeding, I can be fairly
charged with undue baste? The King's Speech, I appre-
hend, on opening the Session, afforded a sufficient indica-
tion that the adjustment of the Catholic claims was contena
plated ; but on the first day I was asked by the Hon. Mem-
ber for Dorset, what was the general principle of the in-
tended measure ? 114 answer was " I will go as far as to state
that the measure will embrace the general removal of disabi-
lities, although there will, of course, he some exceptions and
other arrangements." That intimation was given on the
.sth of February, and we are now at the 6th of March,
without having taken any definite step. That simple state
of facts negatives the possibility elf any charge of previpi-
tation. Another observation in the way of objection has
been inade—namely', that the measure I shall have the
honour to propose gives complete Emancipation, as it
is called, to the Roman Catholics. It does so. The basis
on which we proceed is that which I have explained last
night—namely, equality of civil rights—and the more I Majority for the Resolution . ota
think on the subject, the more lam satisfied, that if we The announcement of the numbers was received with
once make up our minds to abandon the present system of general cheering.
exclusion, there is no intermediate point at which we can While the Majority were waiting en the lobby, Mr. Se-
' safely and consistently stop, short of the abolition of civil die- cretary PEEL requested the Members not to go away, as he
unctions, and the restoration of political power. Some may intended to move the Resolution fur bringing in the Bill
onsider that what we bestow is a free gift, which we have a in the Committee.
r ,be to withhold, but which we grant on the principle of ex- On our re-admission into the GAlery, we found the
pediency.
.0;
j in
think it the payment of a debt which we House in Committee.
aeenotatttattnete retaining. If it be a free gift, we have I mr. PEEL, amid the confusion that prevailed, was un-
abetractolly tie rrilitle withhold it, but can we safely do deretood to say, that it was his intention to bring in his
so, ur is it a graciuto mods of granting the Watt'? it 11111-on, Monday, as he wished to push the Bill forward.