The Sun.
London, England, 1816-05-07 00:00:00

CIVIL LIST.

Mr. TIERNEY, pUrgUnrit Ws notice, rose to
submit to the. House a Motion relative to the re-
gulation of the Civil List. Considering the na-
ture cif the subject, and the utinuto details to
which its discussion would lead, he felt that he.
would be obliged to appeal to the candour and
indulgence of the lionse, oir account of the time.
which he would occtttly, and the dry, uninterest-
ing statenuints which he would be obliged. to snb- ,
alit to them—statements which every ;Member,
who was in any degree acquainted with the., sub.
jeer, must know in such a discussion it ,was trite
impossitle • to avoid. When the Noble Lord
(Castlereagh) a few nights ago brought fot.warrt-
a Motion on- this sullect, there was reason 10
complain that the papers on `which the -Noble
Lord supported that Motion were not laid be-
fore the House in time for him to avail himself.
:of them in this night's discussion, With any de,.
tree of advantage. It was true, that within the'
• last days* bad studied these papers, but how-
ever much he himself (Mr. `Tierney) might he now •
master of them, the disadvantaio layin this, that
they were not before all the Members of the House ;
and every Memlier who had approached this
subject, muse reel that this - was a :disadvan-
tage of the most -serious kind. lint it ap-
peared now that this was not the only disadvan-
lege miner which he laboured, for the Noble
Lord had not only :kept hack the evidence but hall
been tatopering-with the. Jury. -What, he meant
by this was, that the Noble Lord had. held meet-
ings at his own hOuse, composed of certain Mem-
bers of the 'House, where this subject hart been
privately discussed. Nbtv he Would leave it to•
the House to judge on this conduct. Those Mem-
bers,' who were commonly called independent, or
the country Gentlemen, ‘Velf in% iced by the Noble
Lora it, private meetings at histl'ollse, where
they had the whole detallS of the husliress explain-
ed to thew. The evidence, therefore, was With.

•
• the Alenthers it was secretly explained. lie wotd,4
,appeal whether there toulii he. stranger proof of
the nervousness of hiS Majesty's Ministers—ot
their feverish-anxiety oil this topic; 6411 this oe-
c essity tinder which the'f found themselv2s
-having Bart of the House pre-informtql Upon the
question ; although, perhaps, nOt Strietly•.irreto-
tar, ye: lie did cmnplain that, it. was a course of
proceedin4 very 'unfair. The Noble Lortl had
done hint no more thaniustlce when he allowed the
other night that he T) was actaiated by a dis-
positiou to maintain the splendour of the Royal
.13etween.hiniself and the Noble Lord the
only ques'tion upon this subject was, how ;Old to
What degree this splendour ought to he nialutain-
ed If by splendour wits Memo that outward 'glare
and shekv ot magnificence which displayed itself in
ostentatious trifles, then he would oppose it. But
if it ineant thalioriest.splendoor which applied to
material concerns, which shoved itself itt ao un-
blemished character, mid in true dignity of con-
duct, then he would say, it was.a splendour which
he desired studiously to maintain. The Noble
Lord had said, that there was a disprisitiOn within
the last 'few years. to throw the amount of the
whole expenditure of the Civil List on the Royal
Family, with a view to vilify and degrade thent
the eyes of the people. Such a disposition, for
his own part, he begged most entirely to disavow.
But at the same time he could not.exaelly say,
that the Noble Lord had quite disprove 4 ail the
imputations of extravagance on the part of the
_RoyalFainily, which might. have been cast upon
I Accounts luul been laid upon the table,
which .shewed that. expellees had, been patina-
eiottsly continued, which proved :that these
imputaticins were by' no means 'groundless.--
Nolnnli hail' ever said that the whole extrava-'
ganee of the 'Civil List was oecasioned by the
Royal Family.. For his own part he said it was not.:
and in every discussion upon this subject -he had
endeavoured 10 -point out every separate branch
in which the expeuecs were incurred. 'Pie Noble
hOwever, endeavoured to spew dna only
409,0001. per anumn, or at !gal only alMut One-.
third of the amount of the Civil List, was be-
stowed in the expenses of the Royal Fatuity, awl
then the Noble. Lord said, that he wkhe'd the
house knew what was the amount of the Civil
List in France. Now lte knew not what the
Noble Lord 'might have picked up in tlie course
-Of his, travels to enable him to prove that the
Civil List of France is, above all others, worthy
of edluiretiolt ; but, at. least 'of 'this he was sure,
that if the Noble Lord had examined into every
thing connected with the Civil of -France, •
and the exPences• of the King of France, and of
the Royal Family, he would have town) one.trait
worthy of imitation; he Would have fotuil, thitt
when the Patna Ment of France lately veiled a
liberal sum for the support of one branch of the
Royal Family, there had beep it corresponding att
of liberality by the yeturn'of half the sum eu ruled.
Alt the circumstances of this count, y considered,
it would not have. been improper ot it
his Royal flightless hail sent down x tiles:44;e to
the hanieeitect willi.that to which he lain allotted in
Fran ce,. and ammuncing, that 'he had himself re JIJ
-
solsed to Act upon those principles of economy
and retrenchment which he told rceononenifed
his specrA from the Throne. 'lt was Omteros!,...-;
not j Ist lee Ihe part, of time French MNI.-,o ca.
Do: it wold, be very different : •f,ir -the pus--`,
of England bad done so snatch to salTort the
Crown, that they nOW eOm,W scArcely support
themselves, It was important that the House
should understand the real situation of thelloyal
Fatiiily. 'The papers before the House stated,
drat if the hereditary rei Mines of the Crown had
remained in the, hands' of his- Alajesty.-the amount
would.be much greater than the 'BOO,OOOl. for •
inv•oltiitredoltiet
igni vet
li:mtilteeliontizi.err`,ti:he:rieliv,tl•s:a: trteoAtea.
Intmiti)esst.:fertehltiuititt ehereditary ;tel:mts'iYal''l;tevriet
hi the life of
George the Third. Ile had minute himmmelf a state-
meta of the revenue wine!, the Royal in
all its branches derived front the country,' a6(l
•shoold 'l4.:,tve it to the Noble Lord and to the
Nouse to 'decide whether The public liberali-
ty had not been carried to' the inmost' possible
extent,
The charge fur his Majesty's Establishment tut Wind-' SOF Wat
LlOO,OOO
For her Maje,tyand .
48..aats.
For (tie four Priimmeesze;,; I-22,1J00
In slt for the rimlsor Estaldishruent i..4so,oun
109,0001. appeared to. him all CnOrlltolls grant for
the first pint of tile establishment at Windsor.
Could it be necessary, in his present wilortonate
situation, tiat his Alejestry should. have four LOrds
of theßettcharober, and as, many Grooms ? - The
revenue of the Prince Regent would be found still
more liberal.. • . •

\Li2i `!

Iji Royal Highness'3 privy purse consisted of (per-
.
fectly unit'utubereti)
1-le'liad an additional oitowance • . . ... i q,eiv'i
The Duchy of Cornwall produced iiim ... . 1:y.10
And his Grant out of the baliiiice of the Conlididated
Fund
. 4 3 t0f...:0

In all
Of which nit account whateiter need be•given.-
I;nt this :was not all : the revenue which be• de-
rived tinder the 4th and -sth classes,, amounted to
384,004, which added to the_ 1'.::8,6001. made
512.9001. entirely fur. the Priiice Regent's Tier-
sonal splendour. As to t he, younger branches of
the Royal Family, their revenae was rather too
inconsiderable ; it amounted, in the aggregate,'
to only 238,0001. paid out of the Consolidated,
Fund; The whole revenue of the Royal Fatuity,
hawever, apart from tin! Civil List, tvat4 not less
than 1,030,0001. No one prepoiril
that revenue, big it would hai,e heen Mote gra-
tifying conduct on their 'part, had they spoptii.:
neotraly offered to curtail the eliati4e thus made tin
the people. Ile should'now endeavour to follow
the Noble. Lord its -the statements which he had
Made last Friday. The charge for the I List
.entling in January, 1814, was 1;360,0001. ; that
for 1804 had only !wen 97.9,0001, so that there
Was an'excesi of '381,000i. over 1804. The are-
iege cohnates of the seven years endin!, iu Ja-
ntiarY, IHi I, was 1,103.000 h, which rwing de-
duet ed front : .3G0,0001. tiwat prop„ sett; left an
excess of ' 'Tice Notrk Lord.uould say,
that by a'l3ol brought intw Parliament in 1811,
the House had recognised that .only iti the casts
ja which the increase should exceed 124,0001,

- ►-
-

4rf 7

denied, but e'en iftVit th'ere trotOd rentaitt ati
atigMentution -of 433,0001; 'flit I-louse 'Nat:
so accostom&A t i irpmfoni, that tfi• few hundred
thousand potinds Might produce Wit little eil'ect
upon theth.. As to Moist!lf, he thought the
41M1 of 11:i1,6001. of alartning magnitude, and
one Which ought to induce tLe House to
poise hefOre the came tti a vote on the sub-
jeCt— lie wished to infuge a spirit Of honest in-
pdry ititO the Douse, and for that
„purpose;
should prOpose prlioiottiteot of ti Committ,ce.
to consider the CF:& List Ace,n;:its, with power
to send _for persons and for dOeumeutd• Any other.
eonr'de would- tie mere nine cry.' Ile then stated;
lid had eiatted td attend thv Committee last
vent, heeause he had found it imposible Id pre.:
.cced without the evidence of persons,
.wliose at-
tendance he was not aildwed to procure. lie oti-
jectedta the present-Report of the Committee on
account of the Manner in which that Committee,
%vas composed. Ile had last year called upoti-the
lionSe to appoint a Committee to conlider hoar
to draw,;i proper estimate for the Civil List. Thud
was resisted on the ground that it would be as
outrage on tbc,feelhigs. of tliC Royal Family. Yet
the Noble Lard had done that which he would not

k

,allow the House to do. Suppose that the Committee
ultieli he (Mr. T.) had moved for last )'car had
heel' granted, and t hattbe Noble Lord had proposed
that it should be exchisively composed of the Pay- . •
master of the Forces; the Treasurer of the Woods
and Forcatl, and the Sect etary td ',Old Tteasury;
such_ an iutiptiltot proposal would have, beil
rejected with indignation. Yet this had actuAY
taken plare, and Mr. Long, Mr. ibrodsf,.,,,, (la
Mr. Arbuthnot had been appointed by the Noble
Lord to report on the subject of the Civil USE'
!tow had they even Made their estimate ? WA3
it -merely their, owti speculation or the molt • of
inquiry ? in examining it he- should leave oot '
occasional payments altogether, and the ittol
from which the Civil List Was to be cleared. T h.ti
elairge ieinainit% after the exchoion of such e)•'"
peoces wits", for 1815, 1,150,0001. and the aye-
, rage for the, seven reatsen&ng i if 1811, 90,006
'There was au htcrcase upon tt.use years theretore
of 4,0001. ' By the establishment of IS If, chittt
augmentation would be reduced to 42,61111. Ll'
tee Sllting tfit Malltlvr in which that reduction
Was eliveted in toe ti,:i.L.-11t. items, be asked the
Nsoblu Lord how lie came .to find that 11 ,001,.
per annum would be sufficient far Anitia':,s a dOrsl
when he had declared.the year before that they. •
could not live under I
2,00 0 1 . a-year. 1: .thts
House resisted the 11,0001. he-had no doubt they
would soon have it reduced to 10,0001. lie eurn= ;;.'
.:,
plair,eil-of the exvdeeswhich 'attended the Noble
Lord's Special AlissionS to the 'Continent, tend
whiiii amounted to ,13P 0 , 8091'• anti •0l I.llone of his '.ll
.
- 1
assistants, Lord Stewart iind LOrd Cathcart, ;At!:
former of .witumi besides his pay of 25001. as Ge-
Herat oT, ti,e ..`itafr, had spent 24,1171. and the lut-
ter, na:;uding his.salary, 23,0001. The outfit: of
..•Vbh:tAadurs, which last year was rat' ' ,-.: 7•i1,0001. .

%‘..4; now unlv 51,000 i. The sal:iri - ‘rure
al,o reduced from 40,01)0.'.1,, 30,0Utn. The Howe
must led that. they ‘veve trifled with, wiu
vas one year as.absolutely tieL!essiit'Y
gi vvn tip the IleXt. II e then
of the proposed
i'or;tbw Lord 6;eward'i department. It %%;;,,
iliStead ut liti,ooo/. as 'last Vrrer. what.

had lia-pveited to .cruse a dens titi: for 96,000/,!"
year, and one of only 83,000 t this
lb• did not believe, in tact, that Lord Chohnini-
deley had made oily such demand. 93,000/. had
been given hint to he. Npt:lil i and, as tar as feed-
ing and eating couldi he had endeavoured to go
through that-sum, but had failed. liylooking at
the (Flailed)? estimAtes, he bii(*Well 'licit tic i;li all
hip exertion; and advantages the Lard Stewnid iritd
not heeli able to make his Royal cat his
Way through utOre than 86,000/. 'l hi. wasthtt
true +use of the estimate be.iug uovi reduced to
55,000/. In 181.1, it was only 7.4,0001: and yet
in the teeth Of the 'return signed by the Lord
Steward ,liimself, he
;was ttow -ninile to w,k for
83,0001. The net department he should examine
was that of the Lord Chamberlain* It was
mated last year at 43,0001. and this year t 40,0004.
Some of the charges were

•
• For St..larlies's P4taee. 1,1200 i
• For Kensington .. .. . . • .4 I
For Kew • 2.40 .i.
For Hitan,tou-eourt - 600
But for-Corlton-house, aildt the otht ir residence' of ;
on
Illa.lllsreitgylPietragi:tilbc.e‘ese' atirelegtqiestillitt:er I,(ivila:t:
ted. 'dpl2ri eool,)oelolraut(.ylL)::2:ihs ~ oo4t)t. 0:1i
ir. 'l‘ had aelicsst . . i':ji
most enormous, especially iit' till the sums sperm
during the last three ye:us-in furoitiire, were Itikca ..
.••
into consideration: Oi account of the Aisit of
the Allied • Sovereligns 30,0001.t0t tmliittire, had
hern ordered.in stoic, more than was wanted, and
it would almost appear impossible to Introdueo
any more into Carlton-house. Duri,ng the sevei), 1
'
year ending in 1-il t, :..it. „litotes's-Cost 309Q1. thil it:
was occupied hy the Royal Pukes of Ciarence,,
Cinnherland, and c.:ainhringe.. Since that time the:
expeueCS of the youogei branches ot Olt fafnily
Lad been most cruelly [educed, Kensington ofat
the residence of two ItoyA Ditties (Kent mot, Sus- ~!..i,j
sr),) and they Wyre not Supplied with the means
of repairing a broken pane of gla. They were i. 7
~,
pared'down to 1501. a piece, and all that 'to s w eii ' :•'-
ihe expellees ot Carlton-house to '21'S,0001•!----
~,,-
lie then stated ' that his Majesty's eXpen - Ces- 'tt ',..
.:,..
Windsor, including the Queen's !Pause, iwil not ex-
31
r ceded 11,7141. per annum ilnring the seven years ,r 4
already alluded to„ - And yet there• was ad- • -7.1
ficient splendour around him, and ftltes were ,Iri
given noire gratifying to the ,eyes of the. peoph:
than those that hail since taken place, and yet they were; now called upon to Vote 20,0001. !LP
Carlton tronse. To he sure, it the furniture were ~.i,
to be changed with every_tiew fashion, the Illone
might eaiijly be spent. But if it were furnished, _ ;,
as royal palaces tveFC iri former times, for'scvrn. . ''l
b .f j
or eight fear 3 at once, 10,000 i. a year would
.''
inure than suflic;elit to-keep it 41 a state of pro- '
per repair :Arid splendour. As to other residences',
of m 4.-i
the Pria Regent, there were none, for the
Cottage in 'Windsor Park was not a regular resi-; 1
denim, and Brighton %vas his private property. A 7
to the Board of. Works he Nit little jealousy, agt
it Was under the eourroul of Parlikfinek. Ho,
..
trusted lie had shewn,• that were a tilt investiga°
'tton to take place, something of Icon,iiierable lin.
parlance might bi saysd. Why should there be

I present two e.;:.,f ii)flslitis.ents—one fur laic Male.st
una for the ? There is .100
litany' public ofth.t•r, not the Lords of
ae died-eh:tit:bee to, his MaitietY bidders
,of
"teat sinecures, aod shrike' 'of ltls Royal
tress the Prince Regent neatly !'au‘c As tti
olie regulations nI exptlices of the Civil LiStfn ;
the Iteport of th.e. COnnnittee of last yent, he saw
a warrant in which his floYal ilightmse reconi
Wended, or rather ordered, the three Conlin s-
shiners already named to lay before the Lofils of
the Treasury, at the beginning rat each spottier,
aceoUnts of the expences to ,be incurred, and at
the end of the so:hi:qua:ter, accounts of those
Miich hint really bren'ineUrred'. had
''lace for a time. Bat from October to• January
:1816, no such estimate hod been given. Some
lanoosal was midehtood to have been made to
the Treasury, of which they dill not apprOve,-
tuid in consequence Lord Hertford had refused .to
eive,,in his estimate., The Treasury were going to
Oppoitit a person with power to examine Lord
llerttord and whets On 'Oath ; but why should
such a person be worthy of more confidence than
'11!Y other, since he would he; like the test, a
set vant of time Crown. A llinute of the lieu-`
kitty, dated the 23d of February,. revealed the
subject of that disPute, the real nature of
Lard Hertford's application. He seemed to have
nuked, that Brighton having heal added to in
paint of land, and furoittire, the ex-
, pence should he defroved out of the Civil List.—
The rreasuey had refused ; but • at last came to
this compromise, to apply, or rather to misapply,
DrOiti id the Admiralty to that purpose. He
then reiol the Minute, clirreting that the thAciency
t) the Civil List be paid out of the Droits of the
Adatirah y: Winn 534,0001. had been paid I,st year,
ut that eery mnitient there ‘t et © 493,0001. in
Droits of tile Admiralty in, the hands of the
Cr•,,vo. Why not apply them at the lime, or at
least set tlnin against t!te deficiency of 277,0001.
this rat.? The i :A•1 of Liverpool and the Ghttti
cellor of the Exchequer, had represented to the
trd, 'hat the Prince Regent having made great
' ad&r.i.boc, to his resid;ence at Brighton, which
'was orivatt ;mroperty, they were of opinion that
an aid of 20.0001. snottld ire granted him, towards-
.eo‘ering • hose expenses, out of the Droll.; of
the Admiralty. The same statesman-had recom-
. kended a grant of 50,0001. out of time
.same
hut", to. pay for the furniture of the residence
at Brighton ; which, lawever, they. stividated
3lmuld lie recognised as furniture of the Crown.
70,0001. tbui came to light, us the result of that
11i0 teas Moting:The Droits of the Ad-
rttirillty were public money ; for though the Crown
bat) the firs. disposal of them, vet the Crown
must give .to aCCOLii!‘ to the country of the Mall-
soar in wuich they were emph,yed. Could any one ,
*appose that fifty thots.satid pounds' worth of
furniture could he wanted at Brighton ? Out of
the 493,0001, of I)roits of the Admiralty, a 4:17
lance of oral}' 207,,0001 remained. It the fifty •
thousand pounds and twenty thousand were de.-
ducted from it . t h t"..re would be only -about 110,0001.
troth it won't! probabiy he orged that a considera-
ble slim mast ht.. kept to guiril against the elainis
Oi co:•tors. kese, however, must:diminish every
thy, hte nice Inwe urged the propriety of ap.
poi ,t]ng a Committee, and giving it ,power to exa-
m; nei•Nons and i.emmtl tor doeutuents, Dila he trust.
• ts votes ott his side would be MinterOna.
The Right Hon. GentL:opin then contended, that
the Iltiogi'ng forward of the question in this way
mettns of lirin.ging ille.C.Town into disre..
slnet Tbeyasserted that'nwhing was so insult-
ing to time
.public as any disettSSion Oa the Civil
1.46 t,, and therefore they stopped the expenditure
from beingknown. 'There could he no 'Objection
to-a. Committee beiog appohoed to exauiine into
tat those details ; he did not: trislm . to have the
Crown degraded in the eyes of &trope ; but the
way of P;iying tradestoen!s debts was like spewing.
to all Europe that the Prince Regent was a person
'tat fit to be ti asted with the disbursement of his
°Wit money, truth time indiscretions he had coin-
rn4te,i. If he (Mr. T.) had moved for :stteli a
Committee, he woultrhe held up as a Jacobin.,
labouring to vilify the person and character, of
the Vrioer, lt could nut but he teillellibercAl
that his Royal Highness felt extremely Sore at
the eondnet, of Mr. Pitt, for holding him up.
when a yoUng man, as a ptrson nut lit to be trust-.
ed .witb honey; and' the same feeling might
we,ll be supposed to influence him now, tinder Si.
milar eircamstances. On the whole he could only,
rejoice that •tcps were likely to be taken for
keeping the expences of'the Civil List within
!)ottods'; for it had always happened that when-
ever Parlianient had couple libel l advances for this
brand', tif :exneoditure, t 1, is very liberality had.
been Made a pretence for asking for something
more. But at. this mimic lit the comma try had every
„claim on the Lloose for pkting in practice all
possible cconifinv, and no means should be left
•outried to shew the people that it deierved their
•confidenee. rJe concluded with declaring that
he should' not have thnoglit he had
duty, if be bad refrained from sayin, all that bad
taller from' him on this Object. Fie, thet'efore,
'would tut) % e, that a Select. Committee be appoiutcd
;to inquire lilt() the ll'ixpetnlit tire of the Civil List,
With power to call before it Persons, Papers, and
Records. If. he suceeed.ed in obtaining this ()h-
-im, he woulthnext movetlint instructions be given
to the said Comtpit tee to ingoire into the Expel'.
4liture of the Droits oft be Admiralty., • -
Lord,CtsTtAtteaoti wasted, after what had been
,itaid on this subject, that the House would allow
Lim to ealltbeir attention to the leading points in.
the, Right 800. (itietnan's observations. As
the Right Gent!eman.had, according to his
'usual. practice, nittile a sot t of personal attack ttpo'it
i"4l, he shotihl lake an oppor. tinity to repel the:
i:harge ; hut iii candour to that itight • lion: Gen-
dental], rte mgt declare', that there never wad. a
'speech td (midi ,took a mitre illiberal and prejudiced
"" nt the w)rolely,tem,ot. a mute imperfect one
of the question immediately before the 1-I,use,
moltiOie itqvot. of agitkitiOttifthfhlOt of the liberality
of the eotititty—Menr, hear 9, and to undervalue
every attempt Which Ministers had Made to e,unply
with site wishes of every Committee of the lioto.e to
lie wished tlr'lfonse to turn their hacks on tins
ettvtOpt (Lauhter), as olle itt an invidious .no.,
ture, ai ti to cOnSiiL:r• ti!e tint*MlOn whether the
Tonne© offered wes vropt:r to be adopted. Ile at:-

ciise(l the Hon. Gentienon of IttiVingtohlly
ini•represetitt what :.„i cr

on.an,toralcir'evetkirigt orm,:o :ilmr he loot
the LiStS of othei cony: = iu coin!ouisol4
except for the purpose of
-0 miir Nit:WV 1111.1 Crown Itt flits count-V, twit
its Monarchy, conipAted with' otheri„ was not -ex-
pensie, hut vas grafted on the tl•ue Npait of our
Constitution, which wt..; anijou4 for its
and sp!endour. On whnt relloed to the Inc:tease
thefloval the Riga Hun. Get4t;eman
bad aglin miirefiro,ented him-. This did not de,
pend on any economical disprisitionton.the part
of the So v,-; eign ; it tdepended on Providence whe-
ther the Itoy7ll Pogeny should be more or lesS
therefore •he had separated these
branches from the general expenditure, because if•
the expences of do..junior tiratichcA of the Royal
Family were to be cOnsidercd, oiw mast not go
to the situation of the unfortunate Monarch, for

whom au establishment was provided, hut to that
of the Prince who exereked his authority, as All

the expellees of the Crown were founded on this
department. Those in the sth class were the true
expellees ,of the Sovereign of this country : they
amounted to 490,0001. a year, ai►d to this only ;
and not to lte sum which the Right Hon, Gen-
tleman had stated. His statement ,had therefore

a tendency to inflame the opinions on the ge-
neral question, and justified an opposition to his
motion. lie proposed to refer these BAituates

. .
to K Cointnittee but a Committee would be to-
ineol.;petent to examine, into the minute de-
th;s gut-lion ; they would either under-
take what they uulcl not execute, or they would
make chewselve. re,Hro,ible for the whole ex-
pellet's of the Roy:t.l wi3hed the lioioe

to understand the nature of. the question retro-
spectively, HMI see whether the "expences grew
our of the Household, or (row those expenditures
which were avowedly connected with the public

service.
..1.1113 they would do by eaulining into
the exceedings of the Household for the List four
years, beyond those for the preceding seven years,
up to 1811, and the exceedings 'of the public ex-

penditure. The increase in .the expenditure of
the thin' blass in the last tour years '‘vas I 69 ,000 t.
above the average of the seven years to
This was a matter that exphineel itself to the

for this csoontry, (hiring- thole seven yen; 4,
Thad hardly any intercOlirse with the' Continent.

The exceedings.of the 4th and sth Class amotilit-
io the four years, to 184,0001., -which was
46,0001. a year; petting both Chasse, together,
mid out ot which was to he deducted the,expenee
of the Princess Charlotte's EstablishinenL The
Right Hon.• Gentleman would now institute a
Sixth Committee, for4liere bad already been five,
who had all reported in great detail. But till the
objections of the flight Min. Gentleman would
be fotind to relate to this 144,0001. he, how-
evex, was giving most improvident counsel to
advise the Crown to he tied ti,o w it toe certain sum ;
for it was impossible to make, a bargain to carry
on the public service it its expences were not to
by met by a proper provision. The excess in the
neeationtalliaentents was 748,0001: including the
160,0001. in the third class: Thoi a debt
grown up I!l'.lte last four years ot about 00,0001.;
but out one fourth part of, this had grtlWll out of
the household eXtleneeS ; and if the Prince Regent
had not been obliged to mike the eqn.pment, so
much spoken of, there would not hate been this
exce,s. In the tirst class there' bad been it re-
duct iron of 14,0001. The second elasS, whiCh
comprised the salaries of the 3edKes, never varied.
The third chits, which related. to the Ftareign
Ministers, had increased in the average by about
92,0001. The gross increase was 178,0001., of
which the 92,0001. had entirely geowu out of our
foreign relations. The cause why these charges
hail so increased Wits the change that the whole
situation of Lorope had undergone, and not any
thing that had taken place in the household Este,
blishment. The occasional payments must there-
tore be taken into view, when comparing the ex-
pencesof the last ;and, presentlear. The Noble Lord
then repeated many of the arguments and details he
had entered into oa Fridey evening. Reseecting
the expellee* of 'Consuls, 'he said their expencrs
lust year had Amonoted to about 40,0001. hut it
was the present opinion of Government, that the
whole.estahlishment could in let tire be maintailled
for about 30,0001. A yeer• The 96,0001. was me tilt
to cover the expellees of the Leird Steward's De-
partment ; and it,was not right to argue that every
future expenditore twist be the same. There load
not been more cxpeuce incurred at Brighton than
was absolutely necessary for the comfort and splen-
dour of the Illueteious PCESUA living there, and it
was in a greet degree goveined by the intercourse
be Was; obliged to hold. Titus the expeuce of
Brighton was AS necessarily attached to the ex-
pellees of the department in questioo as were those
of Uarltoti-house. 'The fair. way -to consider the
apoist:on atlas, how the Lord Chathherlain could
conduct the expences, of the-Crown witboot com
iog to-Parliament for arrears, and he apprehended
that cutting dowit the Stint proposed- woniii he
only laying the ground-work ornew incumbrances.
The 16-:ght ,hooutirable Gentleman had endea-.
toured to represent, that the expences iit lit ighton
had been a wanton profit ion of. the public nitie
ney ; but any person'. who knew whet Brighton
aeats some years ago, could not expect that the
Prince should live there now as he did when he
was a young man, as it was necessary- that he
should now receive all who had intercoerse with
him in is pioper manner. The'Princeßegent was
the only person exercising the Sover,-ign power
in. Europe who shad not.ie.variety of residencee,
but except. Brighton he load not a single: plaee to
which lie could go with proper comfort and splen-
dour, to enjoy the recreations of life. It was.
,nottnerely the furniture but till the tither fi flogs
trp -which hail reqeired the suns ill geestion:
He justified . the. application of the sum - from
the Uroits of the IWiniralty, which was just as
!noel) a pnblie bertlien , as if Pad latneot bed
soled it, and trusted the House would trot he
intlueeced by the Hight Hon. Gentlemaii's sweep-._
fire; charge, of these being 534.0001.. fur ap
rears of the Vivi! List: When Parliament gave
tree 100,0001. to the Prince Regent in 1012, it was
for the put-dose of liteuidating the 14.:T'eare- of- the
!hue when tie had no alioivance . except' as Prince
Of Wales, end it was impossible to 'make' lies
uquipnient withoot anditionelcherges -Tim Noble
Lora then adverted to tart: expellers in wt4ich ate

voncerned wh.le ant.
that fi.ey Were., :;crr3lAtily illlctl-ka!111i1 it)
AttiEe, lire; -Kiva, fully warr,„iiie4. tl4 cif
-of the virile. He deoi'ed that Lords
Stewart had tittyli employed ass
Ist him at Victims : threy had come there in ills-
:harp- of their public duties as Ambassadors to
toe Sovereigns. ho had repaired to that capital
t he iocrease thetie ypences were partly at-
tributable to, the depreciated value (4 It Ut eV,
-
iti,hich obliged theth to disburse about 1:',01. to
obtaitOhe value o( every 1001, Witli reapect
to himself, every rail of the etpeOces of the
other Ministers was drawn through hint, and
Oat of the WhOle 43.0001. incurred hy these
missions) it won't! be found that -23,0.00 i,
was all the proportion connected with himself
He hadticen on three missions, >n that the average
was only about 80001. for each. Ile was obliged to
make long journeys, and to carry with him a
large establishment, having not less than twelve
persons'attached to blot. for the business of his
Office at home, lie was not conscious that there
had been any splendour in his department; and be
was obliged to appeal to the good nature of the
persons who saw him, to excuse the want of it.
He trusted the House would not think it eipe-
dient. to travel out of the usual grounds, to enter
into whine examinations• of the eipeneei of the
ktoyal Family; this was not necessary in order
to have a clear view of the question, for
there was such a mss of 'information already
oat the table, that no new Committee could thrOw
any light upon it. There had never been any at-
tempt" to refuse information to the Right lion.
GentlemAti, Rot• ever an account which (sad riot
beta granted w:th the utmost liberality, trhert
asked for by an Address to the Soveleign. It Was
quite impossible that a reduction- could be made
on the expellees of the Clown, without an injury
to the public service. The whole amount of
the increased charge in four years, did not exceed
1e10,0001., mid he was confident that if the equip-.
meat of the Regency, and the other extraordi-
nary circumstances hail not occurred, he should
hive been able this day to have stated, that there
had not been any exceedings in the Lord Chains
berlsia's Department. The Noble Lord, after
repeating many of his arguments, concluded with
expressing his hope that the House would not
institute any enquiry, except by way of an Address.
Mr. CALCiiiire could not agree with the Noble
Lord, that this question was one which ought not
to he pre .sed oil the attention of the House.—
If what concerned the people and the splendour
of the Crown was not aii interesting question, lie
knew not what could interest them on any octets-
snot. The question had now'grown into one of
the greatest, importance ; for after the investiga-
tions of five Committees, it had been found that
every Estimate, hoNever great, had been in a few
years much exceeded in those departments; How
did this happen ? Was it found in any other of
the departments of the public service—in'
the Army and Navy Mitimites, for instance ?
The reason was, Ow the House applied them-
seises to this subject, and enough wax given
for the s,er required. Ile should • be
the, last man it) ask for explanations relative to
the Civil List, if he did not 'Set: that still intiniry
was totally tut availing ; audit. the House did not
go into the investigation, he would not believe
that A ItiAit vote for it this night,
wild not think that in a few years the prhent
amotort of arrears would also be exceeded.—
Them e was Ho mole indelicacy in investigating this
than any other department of the public expendi-
ture ;- and he would Say, thilt if the House were
, e
in earnest in Their wisnes for economy, they
Ought to begin the examination of .expenses in
the highest qttar:ers.--r-lle alludt:d in teilo of
censure to the ground which had been alleged
for the diminution in a part of the estimates
oil account of the fall in the price of provi-
sions, contending that such ground was absurd.
an,wer to what bad I,teen said of the advantages
that had accrued to the public by the alteration
iii the hereditary revenues, of the Crown, he
said he would undertake to prove that the nionarch
would not have been so well oil by retaining
them as he had been by the annuity that was
voted for the Civil List. To go on adopting these
estimates iVill.ollt Nil investigation, waS giving
tray to the (Heim of Ministers. He defended
Mr. Tierney (rum the charge of invidionsness, and
saitl‘ he thoilgiA the disclosure of 50,0001, having
been taken from the Droits of the Admiralty in'
one sum, for furniture, the most extraordinary
chmitance that had ever happened. There 'seas
no occasion for any new auditor, as suggested by
• the Noble Lord. In his opittion,- the persons at.
ready in office were folly competent to the task.
lie was glad the Noble Lord had explained away
what he had Said, as was" supposed, about this
cpuptry being niggardly towards its Princes, by
contrasting their income with"that of the King
of Frauce. an ab“dute Monarchy chos4 to
throw as great a,burthen as it pleased oil the peo-
pie, it
.veits no reawin why we should give the
Crown More than bad for years been found neces-
11e, Wii3 of opinion, on the whole,.. that the
inquiry.w
proposed waithe only one that as likely
to answer the purpose.
Mr. C...LoxaT justified Lord Castlereagh against
the cliargt of hating represented this goestion as
one not iuteresting to the pablic. lit. had said he
was afraid' the details would itot be interesting to
the lionse, but that he tlioaght the question ryas
one of the greatest interest to the country.' This
misrepresentation was certainly lateniional,
but a more direct one was never. nt. lr. The
reason why the Estimates in question were. ht..):4!
:erroneous than those of the Army N:lvy was
obvious. ,o,t, latter were hroaght hefOre the
floose every year ; but this wks not ti:e citse with
the Civil List. There had 'hevil VAiti-
tnates of the Civil List si!tee the present ayees-
slon to the Throne, The Right Hon_ Gentletbau
then took a view of the -efforts of himself the:
tither Gentlemen who had been charged with the
examination of the Estimates, with a view to their
diminution ; and adverting to the (lialinotion of
139,000:.,, he declared that they had taken
the:greatest pains to investigate the subject. from
the sole nonive ilf'nn anxiety todo their ditty. Ile
I bought (hcl'e were: Iwo matto tab defect, iti.the
I.4itgetnctit with respect to the Civil List: the
-first was the practice of 'giving at fixed iiiitOine to
meet certain charges which were constantly vary.

ir.tg their arntl nut ; end the second Was; the
~ero:e thiltcontroul it, which those who
wetlfielo res4ionSible for the' eXpentlittire ;:vhielt
oogot rake ehAce ought to possess/ The 'varia-
tions in the ef,arges threw': .on
Very ~great..:. Till bitterly„ Tice' printing ~f
Horses of Parliament was ch3vged Ott tn! Civil
List. first, estimate forp his service, was
10,0061. tip to 1803, .it bad never leached.
20,0001.; it was taken off the List in Ibo 4,
atid the eipeoce for prioting for the two- floitses;'
wai now h. twecn bO,OOOl, and 90;000i, :Was
ti suhivet dt.bere son.e
The disbursemen:s node to Porei;:;n 111inis.teri
had increased tront-10,0001. to 130,00111. Unihr
these circumstances, iitithiiig could be etpetned
but what had Occurred—that the Crr;wai %Ito- Uhl he,
compelled to -moire to yarlianient tO•rgain the
means of discharging the debts on the Civil List,
The seCond defect which tie hail noticed,-. sortie
considered to have been remedied by Mr. Mike's
Bill; but he denied that that measure had had the
desired effect. He opposed the proposition of the
Right lion. Gentleman for...taking Ministeri
the framing of the Estiniates, as he contended
this went to take away, that responsibility, and
consegitently that coniroul; which ought to rest
with the Lords of the Treasury. The etiurSe
which theltiglit Hen. Gentlethan wished to be
pursued with respect to calling for perions, pa;
pers, and records, he cotild not approve. It was
an innovation on the establiahen forms Of the
Raise, andfroin these he thought nothing that
had been Urged. in the preieitt debate Ouglit to in-
tiuce them tri,depavt. concluded by expre.-
ing himself most decidedly in favour of the'
of his Noble LCRAFr eXplitillett.
IIr.WYNA:tt. COttiphined of the repea(pd appe,oi
made to the liberalsty of Parliament, erbeit
Crown had the means of meeting all the demand
upon it out of funds of its own. He disapproved
of the Droits of Admiralty being applied to the.
building or enibellishing of private residences for
the Sovereign, which he had it in hi* newer hi
give amity 'to boint: favourite, .to-niorroW. lie
should not object to, their beiug applied to meet
the expences of repairing some of the public pa-
laces which belonged to the nation, and could not
be alienated. Ile thooghit it of importance that
the Ilonse should know on, what principle that
minute had been determined open, which declared
the residence of the Prince at Brighton ought to
be paid for ntit of those funds which had becti
appropriated•to the Royal PalaceS. He was sur•
prisedat the charge of 50,0001. that appeared in the
estimate for new furniture, remembering as lie did,
that last year, when a Charge, 'of 30;0001. tinder
this head Was objected to, they Were told that did
furnittire which that sum Wits to pay rot had beeii
. stowed 'up to meet some filturc occasion, and that
consequently, the country would sustain no loss,
at such an expence would not soon occur • again.
The charge ro bleb 1L;: had adverted appeare;i.
to him of a very objectionable • nature. In the
present situation. of the country, an additional
scrutiny ought to take place Wine any
clonal charge was' incurred.
The CIIANCELI.OIt 01' the EXCItt6VER WlS!led ti
say a few words upon the 5 wbjvc; Of Droits of
Admiralty : it had been Charged agaiast -Gavel
' ment that it had been gtiilty of a breachoi. its
duty in coming, ao wihen. it its
• hand a large fund that ,diglit L devoted to tat'
Cis it List; 'rot' appliealde (tut.
face of'tad coonts- -appeal-en so or: *Zri NUM. ;
btit to it a note was appended', whi,:h. the Hn.,•
G. otleman seemed to havemverloolted, that it ated
" that there still remained variOus claim:: of cap:. .
tars kis, rewards not yet deierioinvil upon ; this
expeoces on .cOnsienmed pr'opesty-, stud other con.
tingencies, . to
.'the iiiptidatitin of which the
.277,0001. will be applied." In fact, alto deducting
the 50,0001. for Brighton, aud the other sums to
be pad out of this fund, the- disposable balance
would pot-be found to ext.:oo3o,oooh acetirdinK
to the statement of the proper ailleer.
cad the Ilouse not to forget what large sums had al.
readybeen paid out of the Droits of Admiralt y
total amount ofpayments last year was 950,000.t0f •
which 44,0001. had beet; distributed in navy re-
wards, 390,0001. in discharge of the inctouliraneei
on the Civil List, variant small sums to the Con.,
'solichted Fund,2OANL for furniture; and '2-0,0001.
for the use of the Princess Charlotte; So thartha
amount remaining was • exceedingly iniignifiennt..
Ile Wats convinced that there was no lemndatiott
for Elie complaint that Ministers were unwillitvo
produceaccounts : they had always been ready to
give all useful information, and tO remove all
'ntredless jealously as to•tbe application of the
money, It might not to be. forgotten, ttist Ids
present Majesty had applied one utillion and a half
to oc:service of •• the public out of the Dvoits Of
-
Alr.,Titiar,:av,very shortly replied. He persist.
ed that no tiern,l ought to have 'twit made upoo
Parliathent to supply the. dctieieneic* lie the Civil
List, when the- (fruits of the Crtiwri, as; w hick
there 'still rOttiained a strrphts 'of 277,0001.,
might have been resorted to; I.k insisted that
sufficient remuneration Isad not. been givo.lt to that

naval captors,
%:?
The cIIANGIit.LnR of the EXCIIECIVnit answer-
ed, 'that a much larger grant ltii I3ecn niaai-t()
the captor. ditring the last two years tlCatt had
beenct4,toinary tluripg any (ornier year.
diviiion then tool t place tlion 14tt .14otiOn
a Cowmittee, whens the nttalhers'werl4"

,„A Fes .

; ; qi3
Majority akennst tfi tdininn.... --Di
When thelery was agalh' opened,. Lnrti
FOLKSTONE wits Jo his I.evq—oriposing the bring.
'mg kip or Cliff itcpott of the Bank ltestriction.
Bill. Ile concluded by infiving, dint the
adjourn.—On'th‘ining there appeared—,
For- rtinAtijoncantettt
Against, it
\Ve understand Mr. !Sennett Meet' Wartli Malted
flit:. other Orders nt tile Day, with an intention of
dividing the tion:e, when the ChaticellOr tit the
Exol4,(ltter comieoteti- to- pli,t pone-the Report Ate,
the Bank Restriction Bill to Vifctinetilluy.,
14,trit Ltt 11 P. AG hr0.,00. in it Bill for bi-,t,t4.
TigniatiOg Ci‘R , tit's reitt4'4l4.4
d‘treil to be teal i z•ecood liEtit .iii ~(flonday:
'rue other tittkrt ti,e Day wit,: aisisase,l of. •
and actittliipast•Tivelve thy iluititt
jourtied.