The Sun.
London, England, 1820-05-20 00:00:00

CIVIL LIST BILL.

Upon the Motion of Lord CASTLEREAGH, the
Civil List Bill was read a third tion and passed.

GRAMPO UND.

The Order of the Day for reading the Gram-
pound Election Bill a second time having been
read,
Lord J. RnssaLL moved that the resolution
passed on the sth of July, 1819, relative to the
Borough of Grampound, be lead.
The resolution having been read,
Lord J. RUSIIILL rose for the purpose of call-
ing the attention of the House to this subject.
For the benefit of those Members, who, not hav-
ing belonged to the last Parliament, were not ac-
(painted with the circumstances which led to the
introduction of this Bill into the House, his Lord-
ship detailed the various circumstances which had
led to the detection of corrupt practices in the
Electors of the Borough of Grampound, and
induced the Legislature to take the matter into
their hands. One witness bad stared to the
Committee, that there were not perhaps more
than three or four Electors who had not re-
ceived bribes for their votes ; and upon the whole,
there was as strong a body of evidence on this
subject, as was ever brought forward at the
Bar of that House. There was one circum-
stance in evidence, which was worthy of being
mentioned in partietalat—that the two Members
who had been petitioned against during the last
Parliament, had paid 8,7001. to the petitioners not
to prosecute their designs. So flagr4nt was the
corruption in this Borough, that the electors
openly avowed that they were in the habit of re-
ceiving bribes ; and an instance was on record,
that when a Gentleman attempted to put the
Bribery Oath, be
,was scarcely able to escape

his tir#, t:tiv;ng she wn the existceCe of
pha, site set.ea ceded for the interference of Per-
liement, he would next proceed to the remedy
meat proper to he adopted. lie was assisted in
this by looking back to what was done in former
cases. Its the year 1771, it would be found that
sech a case of corruption was brought before the
I-Tou,e of Commons, that it was thought fit to dis-
able those who had so ill-used their right of fran-
chise from a similar abuse ;—which was done by
throwing open the Borough, and admitting a
great number of neighbouring freeholders to the
right of voting. This was the case of New
Shoreham, and the practice adopted in that in-
stance had received the approbation and counte-
nance of Lord Camden anti Lord Chatham. The
House on that occasion distinctly acknowledged
that the right of sending a Member to Patliament
was an important trust, and that the right of
franchise was liable to abuse, which might be
remedied, when it occurred, by placing the right
in other hands. This ought to be done in an
extensive manner ; for unless it was distributed
amongst a great number it would evidently he.
froitless. The next Bill of the description of the
one before the House was int! odeced its the year
1733, for the Borough of Ciieklade. Its that
also hi own open to the
care the Borough was
adj teen( hundreds. A precedent was also to be
found in the case of the Borough of Aylesbury,
where it appeared that out of tour hundred voters,
fifty...seven were convicted of bribery end corrup-
tion. Hevieg shown what hail been done in
three cases of a similar nature to the present, he
came to the consideration of what was to be
done with the Borough of Grampoutid—whe-
iher it was must advisable to throw it open
to the hundreds adjoining, or to transfer the elec-
tive franchise to some other place not represented.
The glory of Grampound was gone for ever ; it
would no longer see Merchatus of the City of
London contending for the honour of represent-
ing it ; nor the satisfaction of seeing hitn almo,t
murdered who should attempt to administer the
Bribery Oath. lu the cases he had stated it
had been allowed that the freeholders of the 11 tn-
dreds had no right to the franchise of the Bo-
roughs ; but it had beets thought most expedient
in those paricular cases to give it to them. It
appeared to him there was a course more fitting
for the House to take in the present ins.ance.—
They saw that within the last 30 or 40 years thete
had grown up large towns, having an immense
interest in the country, but which did not possess
the right of sending Members to Parliernent. Of
these towns, five alone conteined upwards of
four hundred thousand inhabitants. Now, he
would ask, could that be a complete system of •
representation, when large places of so much 1111.
portance and such great population had no repre-
sentatives ? Could it have been in the intentions of
our ancestors,who had give!) the right to such small
petty towns, to deprive places of this magnitude ?
The pieseut was it favourable opportunity, he
thought, of giving to one of these important places
what they had io long had a right to enjoy. It
could not be said, that experience was against it ;
for it would be seen that in times, of public dis-
turbance, those places were always the most dis- ;
(tubed which were unrepresented. If they looked
at the History of Liverpool, or Bristol, they
would find that they did not present so many dis-
turbances as the tint epreseeted places. By grant-
lug to those the right of sending Members, he had
ho doubt it would be the means of allaying iu
great measure the danger of their political feel-
ing• And if Perliatnentary Reform were the
great object of their desire, by having a Member
in that House to advocate it for them, they might
consider their claims as partly granted• If this
Bill should pass, he should also hope that Parlia-
meta would take into its consideration the pro-
priety of adopting some means to insure the purity
of election its many of the smaller boroughs ; fur
he could not think that Grampound was the only
example of misconduct. He wished for no sweep-
ing measure, but merely for a law to prevent the
recurrence of such practices as had been detected
at Grempoued. The town which had struck him
as most etritled to the elective franchise was
Leeds. His Hon. Friend, the Member for North-
umberland (Mr. Beaumont) had stated to hint that
he meant in the Committee to propose that the
franchise should be given to two of the Ittdiogs of
Yolkshire. This, however, he thought, was not
so advisable as giving it to a large town, where
so much more considerable a number of 'lew per-
sons would be admitted to the right,
Lord CASTLEREAGH thought, that between the
Noble Lord who had just sat down, and himself,
there was no difference of opinion on the nature
of the remedy to be applied in this case. They
both agreed that whets it was distinctly proved to
the satisfaction of the House, that any place had
abused the grant of the elective franchise, inert-
sures.shoulti be taken which should so far punish:
the Electors as to secure the freedom and purity
of Election. Up to this point the Noble Lord and
he had always understood each other—they were
agreed that Grampound had so misconducted it-
self ; and therefore the consideration sees not whe-
ther a remedy should be applied, but what remedy
was the most efficieet. The Noble Lord had
stated to the House what had been the course of
legislation in former instances. lie had called
the attention of Parliament to three cases in point,
irs all which it was to be observed that the elective
franchise had been extended to the adjacent dis-
tricts. In the Noble Lord's proposal, however,
to transfer the elective franchise to Leeds, it was
fair for him to state that they differed. It appear-
Ed to him that the Noble Lord looked at this
question as an opportunity by which he might be
able to effectuate pro tanto part of a scheme for
Parliamentary Reform. He confessed that he
(Lord Castlereagh) did not look at it its that point
or view. In choosing a remedy, lie did not en-
tertain a wish to change the present mode of re-
presentation.—But he looked to what was the
remedy, which, upon the whole, was must
likely to succeed, and to be eventually car-
ried into a law. He looked at the practice!
result of the remedy more than the theoretical
He looked at it rather as au evil in the nature of
representation, to which they were called on to
apply a remedy. He had asked the Noble Lord
(Russell) to bring forward a measure on this par-
ticular principle, but he objected to any partied-
lar place. When the case was last bOUre Parha.

teiii Coif there vrl3
in Elie state of representation in Co111"11
operated in favour of carving it out nf
County, in the case of Grampoond. Last t33103'
whet; this case was hetore the House, there wg9
Bill also going throng), for disfranchiiitmg PetirYl);
lint that bad lapsed, and this cpittiriliteollY
became the fist. It did not therefore appear to VI"-
' that there was any bar to thy Borough of Grtitlii:
pound being thrown open to the fo her Distric"' f
this line of remedy they had the experience o
3 cases on the Statute Books, in which the tin
Houses of Parliament had concurred. Unless great
necessity were shewn to exist,he thotight that thie7
should not travel out of the beat en track
thought it desirable that the measure should u°
so trained as to unite all opioions, and shook{ b°
sent to the oth,r House strengthened by pre
:c."
dents, rather than !„,,,roundi-rt on a litigated Ito'''
cipte. The Noble Loud wished the House to 1."
cord in the preamble to his Hill, that wherees
Borough of Leeds had increased in wealth soil
population, ; but the [louse ennid !icor Oft!
to this %;ithout recognizing the principle, 1".
wealth and poptflat ion tot tied a t ioe to refs
Vitt'
; and that the places, which did not cfj`)/
the Elective Franchise, were f Ib4C
which thf y had a light to have. titich a privi'
ple it would be improper and itnlioSstibie to "(''
umit. Neither was he prepared to approve of I:'e
conditions on which the able Lord proposed
'ram the right of voting. He though, it 4,voidii t7e
tar too great art ex'cosiou of the eleeiive Ira tiet,i'e
to iittpait it to all pettso s paying Scot a ,d
with a tenement ••:)Ith five powids a veal /le
apprehended that there was no InStaiCe in ,VbiCrl
the tight of voting had been cieated by he'll'''
meat. It had hill), foto origoottrd to gratos of t"
Crown. This would therefore he opening a oe'd
principle, though he did not mean to say, [tot i 3
'time cases it might not prove expedient. Hot 114
more the Noble Lord travelled away !corn prrce,
dent, the more he ran the riik of assuming a
ciple which would be reisted, and ti,Z3rd.-
the fate of the whole measure. lie thfirefore
sobinitted, whether the safer course would 11'4
he to throw open the borough of Grampotol.
This had not yet been dune with any hiliough
the county of Cornwall, and if after that a net'
case of corruption arose in any of the (,oral"/
borongt,s, time mode of proceeding bq trs,o4er
might be adopiedi He silolll,l 111,7etoce rejoic6s
if the Noble Lott! would alter the torn)
propo.,ition, and ground it on greet dents lust&
of new principles. Uc shoulo
d however offer
opposition to the second reading of the Bill, an'''
it would be for the }louse its the Committee itt
decide what course it would be most advaots'
geous to pursue.

TIEHNE? had heard the Noble Lord nnt,
only with surptize but with great 'reeret. F4l
he had conceived that when his Noble Ff'
ie''
(Loud J. Russell) had introdnc,d his resolotio'.
respecing tba Boroughs provcd to hive heel:
guilty of corruption, although the Nohie
had objected to a sweeping measure agattnn
whole, be had encouraged the belief that if 'CI
were confined to the case of Grampound, it 31)00'"•
meet with his support. Ile recollected this ,lid
more perfectly, as he hail eagerly recommended 1°
bit Noble Friend not to be too diiiietW.btit so Ilikpc
whatever lie could gct—(llere Lord Cottl,re4g:
explained in a low V,tee across the table, that
had at fist expresseda decided opinion with le:
ripest to tile other Boroughs, and considered
w 'll%
of Grampound as open tor discussion ; bar (";
he had alerwArds clearly stated Its wish that
franchise should he extended to the if tturtrcd"
instead of being transferred to any other place•V
It was Certainly true that two or three days atl4l:
wards the Noble Lord had come down and CO%
tended fir the extension of the Fratichi-e in Ofre
Hundreds. If, however, any thing had or.
given satisfack,ion, not to violent liefotener"
for they considered it of no importance, lint (‘'
those reasonable and dispassionate persons %chi:
thought that something should be done, it '"At,
the idea that Government did not in end to 46
pose the present measure. They pointed if (litjd
as a proof that there teas a disposition in "If
Hoots to entertain something which savooredfil
the spirit of improvement. Nov it appe"reo
they were to be disappointed, and to he gtvenba
understand that all that would be dune woul4l
to throw the Borough of Grampoohd Opel'
the Hundreds. The Noble Lord said that '1'4.4
was a precedent for this, and that by keepingod
tittle would be a better chance of SUCCef.S for (O
r.'
measure in another place. licit that precev 4
had be*n formed only a few years since, and '4,fod
time when there was no precedent tor it, lei
same argument might therefore have then bee'l
urged against it which was used against the Pro,
sent measure. The Noble Lord had referee /.
what might possibly be done in another phice'd
Such references were improptr. This House
apt
to perform its duty; let. the other ski) its Oos
and the pnblic.would judge which had acted ..‘(O4
more propriety and wisdom. There mightl,;ie,
be a ditect rriognition on the part of the _Ol
that when a fair opportt,:nity should off'tt hog
amending the state of the Itt-prestntation, re/
House would do it. The old state of the IteP,V,
sentation had been reduced in numbers by
corruption proved toirave existed in a Bor°'lrod
and the first question was, whetlrer the
should go on with a smaller number or °Volt'
keep op the old. His opinion was, that
should he kept up; but 'bete remained to be' 51, of
bow that was to be done. When ;he Botooi,topt)
Grampound should be disfuanchised, it tryonltt se
re'
to exist, and have nu mute to du with the revel'
senta:ton that Canada or any other of our C01'1(1/
It was entirely struck out of the Constholi°
%
Now the course of time had always warred woo
the ingenuity of Man, and in a commercial c`,lol
try tirade produced great changes in places'oool4l
fluctuations in popolation. Suppose the c1.1,P
of the elect use franchise was now tieginningt'io
any man choose Grampound as a place 6( ILI ill
represented in preference to Leeds ? W°l3,,rer '
Crown hesit ate in graining is charter to the 'ideli
Ile thought hot. The House were now Pree
in that situation. Gianipotord having 0° 1,
cal existence, they were now to cooside. 0.101,
u
other place should be reptesented, ci "robbed
manner, with the least disadvantage to ills , ocr
-I
t „nr
and the most satisfae:ion to the conotrYt
Claon,
to bestow the elective traucbise.

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;nu! elf 410,r9 fol- .mentiry Reforril Was
prounded on the asst rt ion that there were whole
tlasses of men onrepresented. This Was true ;
belt there was now en opportunity to remedy this
defect in a particular case, and the opportunity
ought 'tot to be lost. To throw the Borough
Open to the Hundreds would not be to create a
new class or voters, but giving two votes to the
Same persons. Could this be called a reniedy i
The real object which the opponents of the mea-
sure had in view was, that the [louse should do
nothing which savoured of Parliamentary Reform.
If the House were legislating for the first time,
they might be told, are you aware of the danger
Pf giving the right of voting to a numerous popu-
lation at so cheap a rate as a yearly tenement of
51. value ? But this was no innovation. This Was
sP"ken of in a County where it had been
tried• lie was convinced, that if the town of
Manchester had the right of sending two Mem-
. hers to Parliament, and seas governed as other
Oaces by good municipal officers, it would greatly
Contribute to its tranquillity. He did not believe
that were the elective franchise transferred to
Leeds, it would make any addition to the strength
of that side of the House to which he belonged.
He thought, on tl,e contrary, that if they could
secure bill one of the seats, they would be per-
' fettly satisfied. The only persons which he con-
ceived might he dissatisfied the present mea-
. sure, should be the violent Reformers, as it would
dein ive them of their strongest argument, that
the House would never do any thing to purify it-
self, He knew, however, by the speech of the
Noble Lord, that no hope of any thing being
done could he entertaiord, and that Cornwall
would keep its forty.four Members. Fortunately,
-however, the Noble Lord did not intend to op-
pose the second reading of the Bill, so that there
would be a further opportunity of discussing the
subject after the holidays. He therefore recons-
Mended to Gentlemen (halite, that period to con-
salt their friends and the feelings of the country,
and if they were then convinced that the present
measure was fit to be entertained and likely to
rive general- satisfaction, he trusted they .would
support it with their votes.
Mr. WYNN could neither agree with the Noble
Lord opposite, that the present case required the
lame remedy as had been applied in former in-
stanees,nor that precedents were indispensable. The
Present Parliament were as free to fix on a remedy
as the last, and if they could find a beer one, they
mere not bound by any thing that had hitherto
, "ken place to reject it. In the case of Gram-
Plund, corruption had beets proved to prevail so
emelt more generally titan in the other Boroughs
which had been thrown open, that he thought
the House might, without any compunction, de•
Prive it of its Franchise. But if that right were
taken away, there was no reason that it should
be given to the Hundreds who already had votes
for the County. This was therefore, he conceiv-
V, an opportunity for transferrin the Elective
l'ranchise, rather than for enlargg ing it. With
respect to the mode in which the transfer should
be made, he should prefer that which he under-
stood was to be proposed by the Hon. Member
for Northumberland. The greatest inconvenience
arose
, from the immense extent of Yorkshire, and
the numbers of its population. The right being
diffusedi amongst that mighty mass became almost
_b
_ e Collected bvailable for it was impossible that it should
into one place, or that means should
be formed for its conveyance. This, too, was an
e
Which would increase every day, and it what
"ow proposed were not done, it would foice
Itself oltimately upon the House. He therefore
°tight it very proper that Yorkshire should be
divided, that the North Riding should return two
k
itibers and the West Riding an equal num-
ner, There were many objections to throw-
, ! open tfae Borough to the Hundreds.
AaCry person who had a vote for Wotton Bassett
t also a vote for two other boroughs. If
etite elective franchise of Grampound were extend-
tt.tt."
to the Hundreds they would contain no less
s five boroughs. It certainly could not be
learned proper to make this addition to the
.„pundreds which were already so fully provided.
ilt)e Should therefore support the proposal of the
_n• Member for Northumberland. The trans-
fer_.,) of the elective franchise to Leeds he did not
tctln.ceive so advantageous, yet it it should appear
4.‘ ;').R to the House, he should not oppose it,
s;;:11 would only be in case those two propo-
aitous should fail, that he should feel disposed to
gi‘eie with that of the Noble Lord opposite.
tot SUMNER thought the House would give
41 :too just a handle for the imputations cast up-
of it: if they dealt not itt the present case in some
thCe modes proposed. He therefore felt meat
the gstait n to.the Noble Lord, who had taken up
voore'Diect: %He conceived that nothing could be
lion_ conclusive than the arguments used by the
againuartibi_
„ Member who bad just sat down,
CestC tne proposition of his Noble Friend (Lord
I'r°Perri"gh)• He thought them insuperable.
dation 3'. he was of opinicm, should be the loon-
Representation, and this principle would
te.eatablished by transferring the elective Iran-
"lmeo to the County of York. Ile hoped this
of Peer not be the only case, and that the Borough
• he Yo would be taken up too. In that case
be fn should hope that two Representatives would
o ct
for each of the Ridings of Yorkshire.
to movvßau-MottT stated that it was his intention
as an Amendment in the Committee
ridarttis,ththeeCounty of York be'
divided into two,
one consisting of the North and East
• ng, the
tine franch. other of the West, anti that the elec-
on_
else be transferred from Greuspouud to
ital.!): se divisions.
sta.e•of should not have spoken on this
itf the Bill had Sotof
oe provisions been
erea:gbe filled up' in the Committee.. But Gentle-
wouldolen
eedree?lleet, that this was a Bill for
wire
e.1-fair into a Borough, and not merely
all:•11. ancluse Grampound, a point on which
Gear Pinions were •
agf eed. The Right Hon.
ile I ierney) had carried the prinei-
*tile Noble Lord himself ; for he
Yee"led to I tit that Grampound was completely
"
'butsoed, d that tect ~p an two seats remained to be
e Gram pound
forth
11:e ilea
Bill representation. This was not the
of the Noble Lord provided for
'.)l. !be cutup electors, and created them voters
• Tbis was very different from ex-
g their political rights, and even should

the transfer be *ifteied, be .i;id not kloY that lie
shoold agree to this soft of compensar ion. 1r wis
from that sorvivance of-pitrt of the right of Gram-
pound that be deliver! this ground for wishing to
pursue the course atfop ed in former instances,
that of oveewhelining c •trupt ion by the addition
of a strong independent body. But should the
Home determine in favour of the transfer, he
could have no hesitation in saying that he should
prefer the mode proposed by the Honourable
Member for Northumberland. To the present
Bill, its preamble, anti enactments, he should
offer opposition in every stage. He apprehended
that the principle of the wild theories of Reform,
was the universal diffusion of the elective fran-
chise, and if be looked at the preamble of the
Bill lie roomd sentiments recorded which tended .o
confirm those doctrines. If he looked at its de-
tails, he found the tight of suffrage made so wide,
99 to throw what the House considered popular
representation into the shade. Every person
having held a tenement . worth five pounds a-
year far only six months, was to enjoy 'the
right of voting. Now there were few places
in England which possessed so extensive a right,
and many where it was tar more limited. If
Parliament at this day proclaimed th :r such was
the principle of representation, instead of diffus-
ing general content, it-would' erect a standard by
which other towns would compare the mode in
which:Alley enjoyed 'the right of suffrage, and
would disturb the peace of those who were now
fully satisfied with their lot. He was, therefore,
glad that not one single Member, with the excep•
:ion 01 the Noble Lord himself, had declared that
he would vote for the' Bill as it wai. Most had
expressed a preference in favour of transferring
the elective franchise to Yorkshire, a proposition
in which he should feel himself dispoied to unite,
if that if his Noble Friend did not meet with the
concurrence of the House. 'He admitted that be
looked with jealousy to the introduction of the
principle of Parliamentary Reform, and that be was
reconciled to it only on the ground of necessity, and
in consequence of an existing evil. He could on
no account agree to the enumeration of a proposi-
tion which led to the admission of a principle,
the consequences of which might proceed muck
further than the House intended to go. He
was for throwing Grampound -open to the
Hundreds ; and if, after that, some other
Borough should be guilty of similar corruption,
the transfer of the elective franchise might take
place. In this he hoped he should not be consi-
dered as avowing a wish that such a case might
arise ; on the contrary, he trusted that the lesson
now to be given would prevent its recurrence ;
that it would have the force of a warning, and
would act as a beacon, to teach ether boroughs
possessing similar rights to take care how they
abused them, With this guard upon his senti-
ments, he should be disposed to consider the mea-
sure as candidly as any gentleman' who might be
impelled by other views. He should prefer trans-
ferring the elective franchise to Yorkshire (sup-
posing the plan of his Noble Friend not to be
adopted), because there the House would not be
under the necessity of creating the right of vot-
iog. He thought it of great importance to take
hold of some fixed principle, and the principle on
which be wished to act was, that the transfer
should be made on a basis that was already esta-
blished. If he must agree to a transfer, let it be
to those who already enjoyed the right of voting.
If he most retoim, he preferred reforming within
the circle of the Constitution. To attempt to
create a new right, would be to furnish matter
for endless discussion ; for all might differ as to
the proportion of the numbers by whom that right
should be exercised. It appeared that in 1800, the
population of Leeds was 53,000. In 1810 it had in-
creased to 62,000, and it -might be presumed that
if it bad continued to augment in the same ratio,
it must now be about 75,000. [Here Lord
J. Russell said 70 000].—Well, out of these
70,000 allowing 35,000 to be.rnales, and leaving
out about 10,000 for nonage, the rest of the male
population might be estimated at '26,000. Now
the Noble Lord proposed, that not less than
8,000 of these should enjoy the right of voting.
If this was not universal .suffrage, it would at
least create a belief that Padiament preferred an
extension of the representation much greater than
other places possessed. In the town which he
bad the honour of representing, though the popu-
lation exceeded 100,000, the number of voters
was only 4,000. The proposed arrangement
would therefore create invidious comparisons
and general discontent. It was said in the case
of Wooton Bassett, that the same freeholders
had a right to vote for three boroughs, but this
would not happen in the present, for when the
neighbouring hundreds should have receivedGrem-
pound, they would be saturated, and could take
in no more votes. Time could be no object in
transferring the elective franchise from Gratnpound
to another place, when it was confessed by the
Bill itself that voters would remain to be provided
for, and that no other Borough bad yet been
thrown open-in Cornwall. lf, after this, any other
case of corruption should arise, the Noble Lord
should have his admission, that a case of necessity
was made out, and that it was proper a transfer
should take place. He only Wished for some.de-
lay before such a measure should be adopted, and
that the House should act by Grampound as it
had done by Penryn. Should a second case then
occur, he repeated that the Noble Lord would find
there was no difference between them. He would
take this course at present, in the hope of pre-
venting a recurrence of similar corruption ; hot,
it it should re-wear, it would overpower his re-
sistance, and he should give way.

-Mr. WYNN, Mr. CANNING. and Mr. H. SUM-
NER, having mutually explained,
Mr. GRENYELL gave his unqualified approbation
to the Bill, so tar as it concerned the disfranchise-
ment 4 Grampound ; but he should preter thFit the
elective franchise should be transferred to York-
shire, or some other county, instead of the town
of Leeds. As to what leis Hon. Friend (Mr. H.
Sumner) had said respecting Pettryn, be really
thought that he could not have read the evidence
produced on that case. lie would not else have
so totally mistaken the bearings of the question.
The evidence had proved th.t in the Boiough of
Grampound almost all the Electors had been guilty
of corruption. But at Peuryn,'out- of 300 Elec-
tors, bribery bad only been proved against eight.

Would it be consistent then for the House -to
punish 300 innocent individuals for the siike of
eight criminals ? Should any morsure he intro-
duced into the House with such a view, he should
do his duty in resisting it to the utmost of his
power.

►slr. D. GILBERT bore testimony to the tespee-
tahility of the two Hundreds t►► which the elective
franchise of the Borongh of Grampound would he
extended, should that Mode of proceeding be
adopted by the House. The voters, 4e conceiv-
ed, Would be as independent as any county elec-
tors. With respect to tl►e other modes ntoposed,
he should certainly prefer that of which the Hon.
Member for Noll humbelland had given notice,
to that brought forward by the Noble Author of
the Bill. lie then represented the evils likely to
proceed from too (lit ect and general a dleleg►ation
from the people. An assembly so constituted
would engross the whole authority of the State,
and atter sweeping Monarchy itself from the face
of the land, would go through all the rounds of
Revolution, till it ultimately settled in military
despot►sm. He bad no fear that the transfer of
the elective franchise from Grampoimd to Leeds
would have that effect ; bur considering that rnea•
Sure as the first step to such a system, he thought
that it was one against which it became the House
to be guarded.
Sir J. NewpoaT. contended that ,Cornwall had
already a greater share of the Representation of
the Country than it had a right to command, , He
approved of the proposed transfer to the county
of York, and wondered at the objections started
by the Noble Lord opposite (Lord Castlereagh)
against making wealth and population the basis
of representation. For that was the very prin-
ciple on which that Noble Lord had acted when
Irelanii had been united to the British Empire.
He had then taken the amount of the population
and the taxes as the grounds of representation,
and had carried that system to such a length, that
when two places were found exactly alike, lots
had beets drawn to decide which should have the
preference. He thought that it was a wise and
just practice, which did much credit to its author,
and which ought to bring; upon the Noble Lord
the reputation of one of the greatest practical
Parliamentary Reformers that had yet existed.
Lord CASTLERBAGH explained.
11r. WARRI3 expressed his disapprobation at the
fate, which it required no great sagacity to see,
awaited this Bill. Like other good Bills that had
been brought in, and which were smiled on by the
Minister at the time, be had no doubt that this Bill
would be made quite a different measure when it
came out of the Committee, tram that which it
appeared when it went in. He was no, wild Re-
fOrmer, bothe thought this Bill went to effect a
moderate Reform, in a way that conld not alarm
the most timid. He should therefore give it his
support, and he hoped that Ministers would give
it their most serious consideration before they de-
cided to oppose the object pf the Noble Lord:
Mr. W. SMITII 'argued, that if taxation and po-
pulation had not appeared to the Noble Lord to
suggest the best grounds for granting the elective
franchise, be would not have adopted it on a for-
mer occasion with respect to Ireland. By acting
thus, he could not but think that the Noble Gold
had sumilied 4 testimony to the goodness of this
principle, which. he would now find it extremely
difficult to get rid of : he did not see why the Bo-
rough of Urampound should be thrown open to
the County of Cornwall. In no case did it ap-
pear to 1111:11 that this could be necessary or proper:
he wished to know what great difference there
would be between a housekeeper in the to .vn of
Leeds paying scot and lot, and inhabiting a house
for which he paid 51. per annum rent or upwards;
and a 40s. Cornish freel►older? He thought the
former likely to be quite as much enlightened as
the latter.

Mr. D. GILBERT remarked, that his Honourable
Friend, the Member for Norwich, had himself,
when he first came into that House, represented
the Borough of Carnel:ord—he felt inclined to
ask of his Hon. Friend how he 'got in for that
Borough ?
Mr. W. SMITH had certainly represented a Bo-
rough, and was free to state that the means by
which he got in were perhaps mot such as would
meet with the public approbation of that Hense.

Mr. BATtritasT said, it was admitted on all
bands that the Borough of Grampound was placed
in such a situation by its misconduct, that some
measure became necessary to present a recurrence
of that which was the subject of complaint. It,
however, did not follow that it was to be dis-
franchised. In similar cases the House had not
disfranchised the offending Borough, but, by
throwing it open to the adjoining Hundreds, bad
admitted a number of purer irOters 'to counteract
the evil. The question now was, what was the
best to be done-with the Borough ire question ?
To him it appeared that the 'preferable course
would be to throw it open to tire.adjoining Hun-
dreds, as had been done, in tbe ease ot the other
Boroughs. This was sanctioned by the practice
of the House of Commons down to the last time
of their meeting. It was admitted by the Noble
Lord that there were voters in the Borough of
Grampound whose interests ought to be consi-
dered, and the Borough upon the whole had not
been proved to be more corrupt than Shoreham,
if it had been proved to be equally corrupt. He
therefore, in the present case, Saw no reason for
adopting a remedy entirely new in its character.
Mr. Hontropsa supported this Bill on princi-
ples very oiffereot from those avowed by some of
its supporters; be supported it because it would
go to prove that the House were disposed to adopt
some system of reform; and this he would have
stated but that he was afraid his alliance on this
occasion would be as injurious to the Noble Lord
(Lord J. Russell) in that House, as the alliance
of the Noble Lord opposite (Lord Castlereagh)
had been to biro in the Country. It there were
Reformers who were not disposed to accept any
thing short of the whole of their demands, he was
not one of them. He was grateful for any thing
that might be .given in port of the rights claimed
by the people of this Country, and lie th,refore
thanked the Noble Lord (Lord J Russell) not
only for what he had done now, but for what he
had done on former occasions, lie then briefly
set forth the advantages which would result trout
a Reform, which, lie contended, far from destroy-
log the blessings of the Coustitutiou, would Clltt•

ble the Crown to maintain true dignity, while the
people would gratefully fed that they were hi
possession of the Government to which, by their
true and ancient Con:ritotion, they wcre
Mr. EDW. WAED rene,rked, thc.t a Clause could
he introduced in the Committee to elf ct any al-
Iteration that those who were dissatisfied it
in its present torn might desire to mote ; and,
therefore, on every account it appeared to him
proper to let it go to the Committee. ‘Vhichever
of the plans now suggested !should be adopted,
he thought the result would be a specits of Par-
y Reform, effeeted in a way the least
likely to alarm those who were opposed to the
views of Reformers in general. Oti evety account
the Bill ()tight to be allosved to be read a second
time, and passed to a Corniniit,e.
Lord J. Russat.L, in itply, complained of
the Noble Lord opposite, -tor opposi,g his
motion on such weak grounds as those lie had sup-
ported himself on that night. It appeared that he
(Lord Castleteagh) hid little in' say, but that
the measure which be. (Lord J. Russell) pro.
posed was diffes cot from that adopted in the
case of Shoreham ; but this was as well known iu
December last as it was now. lie could see no
substantial ()hive ion to the transfer which he
proposed. In Cornwall, the population ktiooonted
to 217,000, arid 44 Members were refitment. in
Yorkshire there was a population or 303,000 per-
,Ons, and but 32 membeis were reit:rued. lo tine
totmer cases one member was returned for every
b,000; in the latter hot one was returned for every
12,000 persons. Under such circumstances he
cook! see no solid objections to tire transfer of the
elective franchise trout Cornwall to a town inYotk -
shire. He was glad, as he was opposed to a cer-
tain class of reformers, to have an opportunity of
proposing the reform which Ire now jiroposed,
and which he regarded as perfectly analaguits to
the 'ancient law of the land. - He indulged iii
visionary schemes ; but he I bought the PiesideriC
of the Board of Confront cherished visionary hopes
when lie supposed -that the punishment of one
Borough would restore all the other Boroughs in
Cornwall to perfect purity. He had only to say,
in reply to the Member for Northumberland, that
if it met the wishes of the House, he would, wlrtn
the Bill got into a Committer, be ready to close
with his proposition, and he wished the Noble
Lorry opposite might evince a similar disposition.
Lord CASTLEREAGH, in explanation, said, he
had agreed so far with the general principle of
the Bill as not to object io its bring read a su-cottd
time, leaving the points -on vsliich they Were at
issue to be -disposed of in the Committee. lie
hail. before stated his objections to the Noble
Lord. lie was satisfied that it world not p.sa
both.fjouses in its present form, and ti eittore he
,bad. suggested to the Noble Lord the. xpedi, trey
of modifying its provisions. He hoped the Morse
would see that in every respect he had acted w.th,
every sort of candour, both in his public and Hi•
vale character, towards the Noble Lord.

The, Bill was then read a second time, and or.
tiered to be comniitted on that day for nigi,r.

The Clef k of the Peace Bill was mad a aird
time, sod passed.

ALIENS.

Lord CASTLEREAMI gave notice, that after the holitlayi
be would propose the renewal of the Alien sifl, and the Natu-
ralization of Foreigners Bill.
MR. R. CHRIS TIE BURTON.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAI, Preserttefra petition from
the Wardell of the Fleet, stating,t hat one of the creditors of
R. Christie Barton, Esq. (who having heen returned Metobte
for Beverly, was released from confinement for debt, by order
of the House of Commons on the I7t h 181 E) had corn-
uteneed an action against hint (the Warden) for an alle;ed
permission to escape, and prailng t he protcoi,en ot the liouse.
Referred to the Committee of Privihges, which %%;19 dirt cted
,to sit on Thursday.