The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-09 00:00:00

TUE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENING, APRIL 9, 1844.

Lord EBRINGTON said he believed that the 'princi-
ple advocated by the Hon. Member opposite was one
which that Hon. Member believed would be one of
public utility. ; but he (Lord - Ebrington) had heard
other speeches upon the proposition, which to him
appeared to contain many. unworthy and no. pus preju-
dices, and into which had been thrown a setsof objec-
tions to public improvement- that wouldsislmede and
delay measures necessary far the better 'rkAlation of
the morals and -dec.;ney Of the- community. He did
think; that the reasons:assigned by theAght hon.
Baronet opposite for ht's opposition to theAAsure were
not borne out by the fatts ; and even his helot-had not
been borne out by the statemetta of, those who were
better qualified, from their inforination npon, the sub•
jest, to speak upon it; and :nothing but tWepeesh he
(Lord Ebrington) had beard• from theß `iot Hon. Ba-
ronet would have induced him to address the House on
the proposition. When_ the. Right lion., Baronet had
said, that the object'of foreigti`countries in'-their inter-
ments was to accelerate dedomppslick =:ly artificial
means, he appeared to have 'fisitgotten oreaot.to have read
what had been written on
dis Object by,Men very con-
versant with it. Ile (Laid •Ebrington).W in his hand
the report of 1)r. Reid, in which -it was-Atit ed that at
Frankfort, and at •MunichsarsA many other places on the
Continent, not more than Oneody wassitoanitted to be
44114
interred in one grave, in order 'that the .44,rncess of de-
composition might go on regularly; 41 passage did
not contain one word about. " artifieiiii4Weans," but
quicklime had in some instances been -teed, though it
had not been practised generally. ~e,stsother instance
mentioned by the. Right lion. Baronet'assslte practice of-
interments in foreigneonntriea was rather unfortunate
for him, namely, that those who lived in '.the vicinity of
St. Margaret's Church -had net found -irly noxious or
offensive exhaltations:corning from -that;., churchyard.
But what did Dr. Reid 'retort? WhtsAlytt the air in-
the vicinity of iSt. littSgsiret's Church waa gory unwholes.-
some and" injurious, not • only in _the, nathasing and the,
night time, but alAs during the day,skint.that offensives
exhalations had been fiequen4
obsentftadeby many per- •
sons. Surely-, then, when sueha suits*** as this comes
from such an authority as .sr. Reid, .4,:ivas rather too
much for the Right lions Baronet-to sittlhat the vicinity
of St. Margaret's was a healthy 104IW: And, again,
as to the statement Ofthe Right Hop; Ntori 'et that those.
who resided in houses surroundings, urchyards in
crowded and populous localitiesi'welensot injured by
noxious exhalations, ite was- again CsaisVadicted by the•
same report ; but he sfetild,not trespasOonger on the time
of the House . by reading furthers4,tracts from it.'
He (Lord Ebrington) Was. ftilly awl . ""s"Shat the Right
Hon. Baronet had very many, and 19*.ps much more,
important matters to attend to, angst it he might not
have given this question. all. the, attention that otheis
seemed to think it demanded. If hellisti he would have
found that this was one of as gristiOn;iportance to the
publ.c as any now under`, Ins consideration, for nothitg
could exceed the effect upon the healil of the people of
interments in churchyards situated ins-populous localities.
and 'large cities. Those effects wore felt in a sanatory,
in a moral and in a religious point', t view. And he -
had no doubt-hut that'so long as a'tidlS interments were
continued the localitieS would not be:'treed from the dis-
tresaing:endidisgtistiriS exhibitienssAey had heard of.--.--
(Hear, hear.) The,lisight. Hon. Baronet had suggested
a remedy,. it wattithe, „but he had forgotten that that
applied only to rich' people, and thmkor could not avail
themselves of it. On theswhole, then; he should say he
would be very glad if thellea. Miter opposite would
modify his motion, but °venal if good. he would support
, .
it.--( Hear, hear.) • . - 4,.',.'..` ' ..
Mr. Hs-ssie.sugied from his Noble
Friend,
fAo
itrWE dS did
d saidappear
thatt
to
hhei
him
tha,t great difficulty lay
in the way of .legislating upon this subject ; and that
fact had been proved when a Bill *al introduced upon
a former occasion; when the oppositi*to it was so great
wouldo „gitlie;t:.teiriti opposite po
most sit e wasdet deter-
by those who possessed private spisarierty in the places
proposed to be affected, that, the Blitwas abandoned,.
bI er carried,the
proposition
the lDissenters
the Hon,
mined opposition, for. that body lied upon a former
occasion recorded their opinions 'in reference to it in a
resolution which he found in Chadwick's report. The
Hon. Member had stated:that he was willing to ttsStect
vested rights, but he (Mr. Hawes) would ask what
means had the Hon. Membt:r of ascertaining the extent
of those rights?—(Hear, hear.) Reference had been made
by an Hon. Member near him to the practice of foreign
countries in this respect, but, he would ask was the
House prepared to adopt similar measures for this coun-
try. In those foreign countries the burial of the dead
was a regulation of police which it would be impossible
to bring into practice here, because it would involve the
formation of a peculiar tariff, a scale of charges, and the
establishment of a staff of. officers- or various sorts, and
all this would entail upon the country a vast increase of
expense. The Honourable • Member for Montrose,
in his observations upon'this question, had forgotten to
say one word in regard to vested rights; but as he (Mr.
Hawes) had already occupied the House longer than be
intended, he would not take up its time further than to
say that the difficultieSin the way oflegislating upon this
subject were 'So 0,0( arid ,insuperable that he should
vote against: the motionof the Hoh. Member.
Mr. BORTHISSICht said that this was a question
which required thisnsOst.laborious attention; in fact, he
conceived, that ton much attention could not be -paid to
it. He didhope.that his Hon. Friend would modify his
resolution, when he considered well the form in which
he had placed it before the House. As to the practices
in Oriental countries and 'theSouth of Europe, in regard
to interment, he begged to remind the House that those
differences arose,. not only from' •the differences of cli-
mate,'hut from the differences of the religious creeds of
those countries.' He would :recommend his Hon. Friend
to modify his resolution in- such a way as to induce the
House to adopt it.
The Earl of -LINCOLN' said the Hon. Member for
Lambeth (Mr. Hawes) had so candidly and so very ably
stated the difficultieti which attached to any legislation
upon this very ithportant subject, that he would not have
risen to address the House at that period of the debate
if it had not been that the Noble Lord the Member for
Plymouth (Lord Ebrington) had so strangely mis-.
represented,- and therefore misunderstood, the observa-
tions of .hid Right Hon. Friend the Secretary of State
for the Horne Department. The Noble Lord had charged
the Right Hon. Baronet with endeavouring to revive
and establish old, vulgar, and almost exploded prejudices
on this subject, and of throwirg his weight into the scale
of private interest. His Right Hon. Friend, he was
sure, in the statement which he had made, had done
nothing more than endeavour to impress on the
House the extreme importance of not exaggerating
the evils which they were called upon to remedy,,
at the same time impressing on the House
the difficulties which attached to ft remedy for those'.
evils. He (Lord. Lincoln) thought that was a sufficient.
answer on the part' of his." Right Hon. Friend, when he
was charged with throwinglis weight into the scale of
private interests. His Right Hon. Friend had told the
House that he had himself endeavoured to apply a res ;
medy to some of the evils complained of. He stated
that he had instituted proceedings against some of those
parties who had private interests in burial-grounds, and
his Right Hon. Friend then stated that it would be diffi-
cult to introduce any legislative measure on the subject,
such as would be likely to be adopted by Parliament.
Ile (Lord Lincoln) would wish to impress on the House
that this was not a mare question of vested interests, but
it was one especially
involving the of those very
parties for whom the Hon. Member for Weymouth and
the Hon. Member for Bolton in the course of their ad-
dresses had endeavoured to .impress on the Houle the
propriety of ,agreeing
to this measure—he meant the
pnor. lie coosidered that the poor man was more mate-
rially interested in thieinatter than the rich, and it . was
on account of the interests of the poor that they ought to
hesitate betore• thee' . pted a resolution such as
that which his Hon.. ' . ':: ad proposed for restraining for
ever and entirely all inter 's in all the towns throughout
the kingdom. Let the Hois - consider how such.TegiAation
*
as this would affect the pecuniary interest of, t.ls.Amor. It
might be of minor im rtiftee to the rich to . . , o,.ielled to
inter their relations at apo- instance from their rein.., , but it
e .
g
must entail on the pootsau enormous additional expense.
hon Ma
nise. L.)
ook
es his Noble Friend (Lord at this metropolis, where,
were to be found.
had 'truly said, this trlncipal difficulties_ s
(O_es,
Would they compellbe poor inhahitant!of St.l a to ac-
company the dead body-of his relation to a cemetery beyond
Hampstead, half-wiy 10, Harrow? Let the House consider
not only the pecuniary expense of ,
ai this, but almost mpossi-
bility of its being effected. There would be
heavy
charge
for coach hire, which could not sffset the rich, but which the
poor could never heir. This difficulty was felt most strongly
dwelt upon that
chadwick. How did he pro-
by the very indiridual-who had made his report to the Home-
office, which hid ...been so much
evil complained of ? - Why, in
evening—he meant' Mr.
pose to remedy i,the
plan, therefore, would rest upon the poor-
the manner alluded' ,to by the Honsurabla Member
twhiosumldodneotof bheorlyviiilllg-
for Lambeth—n=oY, that the matter should be left to police
of a pauper. He (Lord Lincoln)
poor-
rates,
nesigsseutsl: tlaiooostide s
ae. s
de This
arl
,gp 09
work, r
his relative as a relief kelp the poor-rate, whereby he would
anivo°Uldar.ltoolcnowpohno
thought-that the feelings of the ploy were very materially con-
ieined in this question. They. wished that their bones should
be mingled with :these of their relatives, and therefore they
be placed in the 'position
stould be averse to stish a saeSs.usr:
subject, ethis. He did not 'wish
: to-deprecate legislation ,on tni_cuuptee t, merely wished to
jvimpress 'on the -Iltinse the d'ffi_ Ii s which attended-it; and,
She- was anxious. thatjhe Houseironould
Friend,
adopt a resolution
' such as that propoied by his which would-pre-
the &Ur.
elude the consideration of
. Awe, and would irrevocably N ledgel them to . a principle '
from which they Tloieraftei,..nesards
sotili rilereceded. lie could not
see: why his li Ow,
' pnt'ableßi'll upon this subjectte from
ii the usual
• practice of inttoducmg a
The Hon wwould be
discussed intone of`lts stages. 0 . Gentleman who had
' last addressed theS:;flouse had Torndunded his Hon. Friend
to modify his reeitOin• "
( but he Lincoln) hoped his Hon.
Friend would do
~,_no such thing,f
hoped that he would
withdraw thireYolUtion, andhimsoveeor leave to bring in a Bill
upon this subject. :'" Even if reswlluT should be' affirmed
it would 'not advance any measure which he might introduce,
'and if it 'should lie.,;negatived it would considerably impede its

He should wish to see the Hon. Member for Lymington
bring in a Bill. He had given his attention to this sub-
ject, and had been the chairman of a Committee who in-
quired into the matter; and ought to be able to give
them much information as to- the mode of legislating.
Having presided over a Counnittee, and laiowing what
the measure should be, he ought not to procerd by an
.abstract resolution of this-kind. Ile thought it an impe-
diment to legislation. He would tisk him as their pioneer
not to press his res-olutidn, but, at once to produce
his measure. He begged to be allowed to call the
,attention 'of the Hens° to the iruportance of his resolu-
tion. He said that interment within the City was
a breach of public decorum—that it was in-
consistent with. social feeling, and with public
healtb.—(Hear, hear,) He (Sir James' Graham)
was not prepared to coincide with these statements.
With regard to public decorum he could not understand
how any.further legislation aas necessary to check it.
With reference to the case of the Spa-fields burying-
ground; he thought it his duty on the part of the Go-
vernment to institute prosecutions. The matter was
now pending. At the instance, and by the . in-
stigation of the Government, the parties had bean
prosecuted, and if the facts should be fully established,
he thought the law. was strong enough to grapple with
the matter. Let them proceed to the Bill prohibiting
interment in Cities, adopting the suggestion given them
by Mr. Chadwick, he war perfectly sure that public
feeling- would be excited to the strongest de.
gree; and if they did
.not take care it would be violated.
As long as they confined themselves to abstract resolu-
tions, the public would not become very much interested.
The Ecclesiastical Commissioners reported only against
interment in chaneels; And the report of the Sanatory
Commission, which glanced on the subject incidentally,
proposed nothing specific. He admitted that the health
of the people in large towns was only to be dealt with
by the Governmenein a comprehensive measure. The
Bill was almost prepared, and it would be brought before
the House by his Noble Friend the Earl of Lincoln this
present session. Yet he thought that this sub-
ject was so marked and distinguished from all other
causes of disease that it would be expedient to
keep it_ out of the operation of this measure.'
Then, with respect to the terms of the report of Mr.
Chadwick, his labours on this subject had been most
extensive, but he thought - there was something vx-
aegerated in his views, and his remedial measures had-
convinced him of the ill effect of legislating on the
subject. Now what .was the proposition of Mr. Chad-
wick? Why that all the arrangements for interments,
which' had been hitherto conducted by private hands,
should be-carried out by the Government, and that those
interments should take, place at leaSt four miles
outside the walls -of the metropolis. He
_thought that they ought to take care how they
adopted such principles by premature enactment; he
thought matters had - much better be left to them-
selves, and by that Means the community would be much
more inclined to accede to the plan. He belieVed
that the adoption of the proposition of Mr. Chadwick,
to take out of the hands of private parties, and place in
the hands of the Government the conducting of inter-
ments, whatever sanction it might meet with within
those walls, would out of doors be generally repudiated.
He thqugh the utmost caution ought to be observed in
legislating on the subject. He would willingly agree to
any measuree-sindeed, bring it forward—if he could only
meet.one that was likely to turn out satisfactory; but, as
at preaent advised, 'he had not, as yet been able to pro
cure, or meet with a naeasiare that was, in his. opinion,
worthy of -adoption. It had been asserted in that
House' that he (Sir J.- Graham) ought to bring
forward some measure on the subject, but the
question was, *hat that measure should be, in
order fully to grapple with the evils com-
plained of ? He must say, that on the
.part of the
Government, he-was not prepared to bring in any mea-
sure, and he thought, therefore, it would be most im-
proper to agree to the resolution of the Hon. Member
for Lymington. - His Hon. Friend had told the House
that he was prepared to bring in a Bill, hut it was ac-
companied with the condition of the House passing the
resolution. He (Sir James Graham) could not see the
necessity of carrying the resolution before bringing in a
Bill, Why not, he would ask, let the Bill be brought
in, and then let the House give its opinion upon it? With
every disposition to give the most candid consideration
to any measure brought forward by his Hon. Friend the
Member for Lymington, he felt bound to tell hilt
that he was compelled to oppose the resolution.
Mr. BERNAL thought there was great difficulty in
the resolution proposed, and although he was prepared
to go along with the Hon. Member for Lymington, in
the principle of the resolution, he could not agree to all
its dogmas. As to saying there were no dangers in in-
terments in large towns, be need only refer to some of
the first authorities in medicine and science to contra-
dict that assertion. He believed there was a great deal
of exaggeration on the subject of the number of burials
that took place in the metropolis, because it must be ad-
mitted that the •cemeteries of IC. nsel-green and other
places drew a great number of interments from the
centre of the metropolis. But still, however, it
must be admitted that a great number of
burials took place, especially in the neighbour.-
hoods in which the poor resided. In fact, the
poor were the parties who generally suffered, and as a
proof of that, he need only call upon Hon. Members, if
they disbelieved him, to go to such places as St. Cle-
ment's, Clare-market, and St. Anne's, Soho. If the
Right Hon. Gentleman was prepared to say he would
bran i.): in some measure to relieve th.• poor of the neces-
sity of bum ying their dead in those places, he would say
at once to the Hon. Gentleman the Member for Lyming-
ton, abandon your resolution and leave the subject to the
consideration of the Government. He thought it unfair
to say that it was the ministers of the Established
Church alone that offered the only difficulty to the re-
moval of these nuisances. He considered that his
Honourable Friend the Member for Lymington
had not presented to the House such a
resolution as he could agree to vote for, but, at the same
time, he must say that the. Right Hon. -Baronet at the
Head of the Home Department would not do his duty
either to the House or the country unless he did some-
thing on the subject, either in the course of the present
or the next session. Some endeavour should be made to
close those places of infection to which he had alluded—
namely, the burying-grounds of St. Clement's, Clare-
market, and St. Anne's, Soho. He, for one, should be
heartily glad to see them closed ; and it was his firm
belief that some arrangement might be made with the
parish authorities to obtain so desirable an object as that
of preserving the health of those who lived there.

pariah. it which it had died. "Itis a most monstrous princi-
ple;",said the Hon. Gentleman, " that a demand of 7s. or 12s.
should be made because my relations think proper to bury me
out-of the parish in which I died."—( Loud laughter.) But in
some oases, where the parties•were Dissenters, burial was re-
fused altogether. In legislating upon this subject, the difficulty
they wou d have to contend with would be the Church, and
therefore he had great pleasure in moving the amendment he
had 'just read. "
Dr. BOWRING seeonded the motion.
Mr. MACKINNON said he felt himself placed in every de-
licate situation.--( Laughter.) His Hon. Friend, the Membea
for Finsbury, with his winning ways, had come over to him,
and asked him to amend his resolution, and it appeared to
him (Mr. Mackinnon) that the only alter, ative open to him,
was either to give up the resolution altogether, and give up
all. `chauce of his Bill, or allow the amended resolution to be
carried, which had just • been proposed. With- regard to his
bringing in a -Bill, it must be recollected, tl at he would
have to incur a great deal of trouble and expense, and would
have to consult several legal gentlemen, and after introducing
it, he would be told-on the second reading that it we, wrong
,in -its . details, and therefore 'it would be thrown out. If this
resolution should' be passed by the House, it would give an
impetus to public feeling on the subject. With respect to
what had fallen from the lion. Member for Lambeth, respect-
the Dissenters, he-would state that he had not the slightest
intention of reflecting on the Dissenters. He would not
further trespass' on the House than to say that he gave the
,amendment his entire concurrence.
._ -Sir R. INGLIS said that as lie had taken considerable in-
terest in the Committee which was appointed to inquire into
this subject, he trusted the House would indulge him for a few
moments. He believed that the evils which were complained
of- had arisen from the general neglect with which, throughout
the Whole of the eighteenth century, the religious part of tha
community of England were treated by the Government. The
-remedy for these evils was to be found in the extension of the
parochial system for the dead. A plan had been sug-
gested by the. Committee, which ,was that parishes
Should be ' empowered by Act of Parliament to join
in the ptirchase "of ground for the sepulture of the
dead. The Hon. Member for Finsbury had said that
the great difficulty they had to contend with was the Church.
Now let not the House be' led away by the pleasing delusion,
that all those who were the advocates of cemeteries at Kensal
Green and at Norwood, or any other part of the circumference
athis metropolis, were embued with a pure disinterested zeal
to provide the cheapest place of sepulture for the poor inhabi•
tants of the metropolis; they. were interested in inducing steps
to be taken for tha sepulture of the poor in the suburbs of the
metropolis. .It must be recollected that, in this metro-
polis, in many cases, a large proportion of the income
of the clergy depended on what were called the surplice fees.
The maintetance of the ministers of religion, in the metro-
polis, was derived almost exclusively from the voluntary offer-
ings cf their congregations at Easter, and whatever fees were
got for the burial-servite, marriages, and baptisms; and un-
less they could, by extending their parochial system according
to the necessities of the case, so as to give places of sepulture
to the
,people more consistent with public decency, and even
health, there did not occur to him any other mode of remedy_
into the evil, which would not injure those whose maintenance
depended on the present system. If that were so, it would be
a poor consolation, if it were a consolation at all, that they
encouraged joint-stock companies in seven or eight locali-
ties round the metropolis, while they injured the efficiency
of the ministers of religion within the metropolis. All he
desired was this, that if her Majesty's Government undertook
the remedy (Wan evil which they all admitted was great, they _
would pay due regard to those interests which it was his humble
desire to advocate in that House. By providing that many
parishes should unite for the purpose of purchasing places of
burial, and at the same time taking care of the interest of the
incumbent in the metropolis, he thought they might succeed j
in overcoming the difficulties which surrounded this subject.
Sir G. GREY said he concurred with the Noble Lord op-
posite (Earl of Lincoln) in thinking that the proper mode of
proceeding would be by Bill, and not by resolution, and also
that it would be better to have any measure on this subject in-
troduced by some Member of the Government. The diffi-
culties which encumbered the subject had been ably stated—
difficulties which induced him to think that a mea-
sure on the subject could not be introduced
with any prospect of success, unless it were brought forward
by a member of the Government. The question they had now
to consider, he apprehended, was whether, after the facts which
had come to light 'with respect to interments in the metropo-
lis and other large cities, it was not a subject well deserving of
the consideration of the Legislature, and it seemed to be the
'opinion of the House that any measure on the subject should
be brought forward by her Majesty's Government. But if her
Majesty s Government were of opinion that the difficulties at-
tending it were so great that they declined to bring forward a
measure, he then thought that it was the duty of the House to
interfere, and even the very difficulties which attended it were,
in his opinion, an additional reason why the House should in-
terfere.—( Hear, hear.) The subject was so important, and
its evils were so pressing, that they would be forced to apply a
remedy.__( Hear, hear.)
Sir J. GRAHAM said he deprecated proceeding in this
matter by resolution, because it would lead to great incon-
venience, and give rise to false impressions out of doors. It
would be supposed that they were going to apply a remedy,
whereas there was no particular remedy proposed.
The Right Hon. Baronet (Sir G. Grey) said that Govern-
ment ought to turn its attention to the subject. Now he could
assure the House, that he had bestowed the greatest possible
attention upon it. He was the person who directed the atten-
tion of Mr. Chadwick to it ; but though the facts which that
gentleman collected were of the greatest importance, he must
say the remedy he suggested appeared to him (Sir J. Graham)
to be inapplicable. The question, as it affected the clergy,
which bad been stated by his Hon. Friend (Sir R. Inglis), was
not the only difficulty. He did not think that that difficulty
alone would be insuperable; but in this instance that difficulty
was enhanced by others on the part of several Dissenting
bodies. Several Dissenting chapels had burial grounds
attached to them, not for the direct benefit of the
miniater or the congregation, but in trust for the benefit of all
who worshipped in the chapel, whether minister or congrega-
tion. And those were not the only considerations involved.
There were besides peculiar interests and feelings on the part of
the congregation, and even on the part of each member of the
congregation. And if they made it compulsory upon those Dis-
senters and others that they should not bury their friends in
their accustomed places of sepulture, but that they should be
removedelsewhere, then the objection stated by his Noble Friend
would arise. It was well-known that there was a natural wish
`on the part of the friends of a deceased person to ac-
company his remains to their last home, - and, if
they had to Lhe taken to a distance, his relatives
would (in the ease of a poor man) be obliged to
forego their days' wages ; and in winter they would be
driven to the alternative of either walking four or five miles, or
of procuring a means of conveyance at a great expense. But
the great difficulty of all ,was the desire which was inherent
in the human breast—a feeling upon which he could not reason,
for it was stronger than reason—a feeling which he would not
call prejudice, for it was connected with the best sentiments of
human nature—the desire of a relative wishing to lay his
bones by the side of his relative ; and however the feelings of
the public might be roused upon the great evils of the present
system he was satisfied that they would act most unwisely
in legislating hurriedly upon it. It was attended by great dif-
ficulties, but he did not mean to say that they
could not be got over by great care, caution, and consideration.
He had given his best attetion to the subject, but he was not
prepared with any measure at present. If, however, any other
Member of the Housetwho had given his attention to the sub-
ject, was able to see his way more clearly through its difficulties,
and was prepared with a remedy, he (Sir James Graham)
would be glad, instead of carping at it, to give it every aid in
his power. He could noeconeur in the abstract form of the
resolution proposed by the Hon. Member for Finsbury, though
it was an improvement upon that of his Hon. Friend. He
would continue to give his attention to the subject; and from
interviews which he had upon the subject with various Dis-
senting bodies, he was satisfied, though convinced of
the great difficulties attending it, that any reasonable
arrangement would be agreed to on their part. lie did
not think that a little delay in a matter like the present would
be thrown away. A case like the present was one in which
first impressions were always strong, hut it was one also
where the greatest deliberation was required. He would,
therefore, advise the House not to pa-s a resolution like the
present, which would only impede the object they all had in
view.—( Hear, hear. )
Mr. MACK Ls NON having withdrawn his resolution,
The House then divided, when there appeared--
For the amendment ...
Against it ...
Majority against the Government 17
Loud cheering followed the announcement of the numbers.

l)r. BOWRING was afraid that the speed of the
Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Home Depart-
mentgave no hope to his Hon. Friend, who had intro-
duced the subject, that it would receive the favourable
consideration of the Government. He thought it a dis-
grace to a country like England, that the example of
foreign states had not been followed by it. In France,
Spain, Germany, Denmark, and in the Oriental world,
the cemeteries were removed from the inhabited places.
Nothing could be more distressing than the manner in
which the poor were interred in this great city. It was
stated in the report of Mr. Chadwick-that Mr. Wild had
stated that in many instances no less than from ten to fif-
teen funerals were appointed to take place at the same
time. That, of course, the funerals took place in a hur-
ried manner, and that the poor constantly complained of
this, and asked him the reason. As far as re-
garded the middle and the higher classes. they were
leaving the city and interring their departed friends in
the cemeteries surrounding London. He believed the
receipt of the fees for burials was the great, if not the
only cause for the objection that had been made to the
removal of burial-ge-;unds out of great c'ties.--(Hear.)
.He could net concur with his Hon. Friend (Mr. Bernal)
that the resolution of the Hon. Member for Lymingten
was .exaggerated, because it was his firm belief that in
the vast number of burials which took place in large
towns;espeeially in London, the public health was sacri-
ficed and decorum violated. If the Right Hon. Baronet
at the' head of the Home Department would .take
hand the fees,, and tell the clergy that they would lose
'nothing, the whole difficulty would be removed. Let.
any person follow the poor man to his grave—
(Hear, hear)—and see the dreadful receptacle
that was prepared for his body.mingling with its rarent
earth, and he would at (Nice exclaim that the•propositien,
of the Hon. Member for Lymington ought to be carried'
eat. Let that .same individual go to Turkey and see
the difference.there: The interment of the most menial

AGRICULTURAL STATISTICS. ----
Mr. MILNER G IBSON brought forward his motion re-
garding agricultural statistics, of which he had given notice.
He wished to ascertain the number of acres which were in the
United Kingdom, and the amount of agricultural. produce
which they yielded. The House and the public were in total
ignorance on this subject, and last year its importance had
been fully recognised, when he brought fore ard the subject.
The Government then expressed its approval of the attempt
he had made to obtain this information, and thy then l're-
sident of the Board of Trade said he would endeavour to ac-
complish the object. He would not now enter into the details
of the measure, but simply submit to the House the resolu-
tion which he had introduced last year, with a view of eliciting
from the Government what progress had been made in ful-
filling their promise. Scarcely a day passed, that statements
of a most conflicting character were not made on this very
subject ; and it was most essential to the public that ex-
act and authentic information should be obtained.
The motion having been seconded,
The SPEAKER put the resolution, which was, " That an
humble address be presented to her_ Majesty, to the
effect that it was the opinion of the House that it was desirable
to obtain information regarding the amount of acres in cultiva-
tion in the United Kingdom—the amount of agricultural pro-
duce, with a specification of the various kinds, and such other
• •

-was respected,-and his body left to moulder in a paradise
rather than in a charnel house.—(Hear, hear.)
herd MAHON did net think the Right Hon. Baronet
had exaggerated the difficulties of the subject, hut he
certainly had underrated its importance.—(Hear, hear.)
No question was mere essential to the health and well
being i,f large towns.—(Hea , hear.) True, they had
been Uhl that the Government had measures in view for
improving the health of large towns by draining, ventila-
tion, supplying them with water, and so on; but that was
nothing compared with the importance of the present
question.—(Hear, hear.) Of what use, he`would
was ventilation, when it carried with it an atmosphere;
that contained pestilence and death? or what was the
use of supplying those places with water, when that ele
ment contained all that was rank and noxious, ttrrEl
inimical to human life? He could not follow his Right:
Hon: Friend the Secretary of State for. the Mane De-
partment in the manner in which he treated so. lightly
- the course pursued by foreign nations.—(ffear, hear )
.believed that there was no country' in Europe.'
with the exception of England,' that' permitted",
interments in the hearty of their capitals: On '•
those grounds, then, he would say that there. was no;,
subject could come before, the Legislature that m'bre
emphatically demanded the attention of the *Legislature
and the public than this.—.(Hear, hear.) • But at -the
same time he should say that he had very little. hope.of
anx beneaciai result following public legislation upon:
it, bee.i.use there were so many private • interest's Cog.:
rimed with.those burying grounds that would be sure.'
to interfere. However, if there should be legislation
upon the subject, he would be very happy -to.give,aat
assistance in hispower, for be did.think the subJeewas.
one that demanded immediate attention ; but, at tliesaina.
time he should say he could not agree in -the
terms of - the resolution proposed • by Lis' Hononr-
able Friend. When the Honourable Igensbt=i-- for.
LyMington first mentioned this subject to him, ,tae
told him he would always vote for any resolution
declaring that interment within large towns Nast n"e4
conducive to the health of the inhabitants of.those tqWns,
but at . the same time he was 'of opihion,- that any,
legislative measure that should _be proposed on the sub 7
ject should be confined to the metropolis mad ,then,
after a little time, extended to the country towns. But
:he saw, by the resolution of his Hon. Friend, that he did
'not even mention large towns, he merely said towns,
Mr. MACkINNON here interrupted the Noble: Lord;`
'and, as AvtunderStood, told him, that the resolutioti
-contain the words " large: towns." . -
Lord' MAHON—WeII; then; he had been mistaken
i.trt.bat.:pe,rt4cular bat'still he could not concur in the
trs ecltitayn in
w-('''ut iii,T.ppesent§.` -Rao, "Fibili.- at 04. kgat tip*,
the;alWdy.s.,be= Ifitte 'to -urge upon. th Goyern-
ment ille--nectssttt.ftYr 'useful hilir eft-dicta-141ga:
,tion_upen.the

information as might enable the House to arrive at a correct
estimate of the agricultural capabilities of the United Kingdom.
Sir G. CLERK said he thought the Hon. Member brought
forward the matter rather with the view of ascertaining what
the Government had done on the subject than with any serious
intention of taking the opinion of the House on the resolution
itself, which it was impossible they could accede tn. He was
ready to admit the great importance and the great benefit that
would result from the attainment of accurate information on
these points. The Right Hon. Gentleman the late Pre-
sident of the Board of Trade had promised to make an
attempt. to obtain the, requisite details, and in pursuance
of that promise had, during the recess, written to the Right
Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Depart-
inent, who communicated with the Poor-law Commissioners

on the subject, as it was thought the information might be fur-
nished by the various poor-law guardians throughout the king-
dom. The Poor-law Commissioners, in reply, stated that
there were innumerable difficulties and objections to such a

course, and that it would be found almost impossible to carry

such a plan into operation. There was no objection on the
part of the Government to lay before the House the letter
which had been written by his Right Hon. Friend to the Poor-
law Commissioners on the subject, and their reply upon the
subject. The substance of the reply of the Poor-law Commis-
sioners was, that they could not impose any duties on the poor-
law guardians throughout the country, except what were in
some way connected with the poor-law system. He ( Sir G.
Clerk) had no objection to give all the inormation on this
subject in his power, but it must be obvious that unless the
statistics obtained were full, comprehensive, entire, and accu-
rate, they would not be at all satisfactory. He was sorry he
could not point out any satisfactory.ineans for overcoming them
difficulties. He must again repeat that he was wiling to give
every facility to obtain the information required, and that he
considered it most important. He, however, hoped that, on the
present occasion, the Hon. Gentleman would withdraw his

Mr. T. 'DIYNCO3IBE said that in compliance with the
wish of :his. Hoot Friend, the Member for Lyntington, be
progress. ' - -- .
was about —tit propose au' amendment, which he trusted
was, that the
pr
would meet with the general consent of the House, at all
events he boPftl it would be supported by a majority of
the Hon. Friend,
of the metropolis
that HoUse. The amendment which he had to propo.o, in
end large citiellts injurious to the health of the population
.and demands qre serious attention 1)f Parliament. What.werc
the obkiitions with which the question had been met? It had
cota pulciae nce
of w
interments
i them en wts iswhitobfin his
precincts
been said-that bis Hon. Friend should at once have brought in
a Bill. Why, his Hon. Friend had already tried that course,
without, mops', and he IriOW proposed to try a resolution.
He (Mr. (DUncombe) had hat the pleasure of serving wi.h
bis Hon. Friend on the Health of Towns Committee, and
never was ti ete a stronger case mule out for legislative inter-
ference tha in that ComMittee. He represented that por-
tion 'of the! eetropolis in which great excitement at present
existed wi 4 respect to the Spa-fields burying-ground. The
Noble Lor Eid stated that to make any alteration in the
law on this abject would be to strike at the feelings of the
poor of tlf country, asjilleyvvished to mingle their bodes with
these of eir ancestors. NAY, whit they complained of
wiii.,.that theSt Could not de this: Th -rCason why in Objection
was raise toiany alteration of the law µs,,that certain parties
werernis4Ogiarge fortunes under the existing system. Enor-
mous fees Here demanded for the removal of a corpse out of the

motion.
11r. AGLIONBY thought the subject well worthy the at-
tention of the House. He supposed his Hon. Friend must
withdraw his motion ; but he would be anxious to see these
letters, and to ascertain what the gentlemen had said on the
subject. The Right Hon. Gentleman had admitted the' im.
portance of the information, but did not show'much anxiety
to obtain it. They had applied to the Poor-law Commis-
siomers, it was true, but why had they not applied to the Tithe
Commissioners, who could give the largest arrount of informa-
tion, and the most accurate.? There would be no oifficulty
whatever in obtaining the requisite inforaution, if a real'
anxiety were felt to procure it. For his part, he would under-
take, before that day week, to obtain a return of the number
of acres cultivated in his parish, and the cmount of the various
kinds of produce, and every Hon. Member could do the s;mc.
Mr. CHRISTOPHER, as the representative of a largo

agricultural community, must say a few words on this subject.
Since last year he had made inquiries among the most intelli-
gent of his con tituents and found that there would be great
tiifficulty in obtaining the requisite information. He.therefore
saw very great difficulty in procuring any thing like. accurate
information. He had commuiticated with very intelligent
Persons. among-his own constituency, and they had all agreed
that it was next to imp sale to give the information o a, to
lead to the result which his Hon. Friend the Member for Man-
chester, evidently aimed at—lie meant the quality- of the i;ro-
duce of the country. It w be, he must acknowledge, a
very desirable thing if this could he done, but he believed that
perfect accuracy was next to impossible, and if the returns
were not accurate they would be worse than useless. He did
not wish to prevent these returns, but it was a weh known
fact, that appearances were frequently deceptive,- and last year
the crops bore every appearance of a huge yield, but it
turned out that it was much lighter than was
generally expected, and he believed that if five stacks were
to be taken in rotation they would find that the grail pro-
duced would be at least one-eighth more this year than it
was last. He believed that ;it was a general impression that
persons speculatively engaged in the corn-trade could send
Individuals throughout the country who from a mere inspec-
tion of the crops as they stood could arrive at some vague
notion of the quantity of the produce. But that_was not suf-
ficient for the purpose of the motion of his Hon. Friend the
Member for Manchester, and he himself • could not see in
what way they could come at any satisfactory conclusion if
he could render any assistance in arriving at that conclusion
he would most readily do se, but as the matter stood he did
not see the likelihood of any great utility from acceding to the
motion.
Mr. WARBURTON was glad to see such a concurrence of
opinion in the importance of this question on both sides of the
House. But he believed that the information would not be so diffi-
cult to obtain as some Gentlemen imagined ; and if the Govern-
ment really felt that the information was desirable, he believed
that where there was a will there was a way. His Hon. Friend
the Member for Cockermouth (Mr. Aglionby) had referred to
the Tithe Commission. He believed that they would find no
difficulty in getting the acreabte surface under cultivation ;
and if they wished for the amount of produce they might apply
to the registrar of births, deaths, and marriages--- (Great
laughter.) Well, all he meant to observe was, that there was
machinery already in existence; and if they objected to the
returns of the Tithe Commutation Act, they might employ
instead the officers engaged to make the ordnance survey.
He believed that a saving would be effected and that some-
thing like 700,0001. or WO,OOO/. would be saved from the
cost of the Poor-law Commissioners in the aggregate
of parishes. An objection had been taken to any
accurate survey of the country, because Hon.
Gentlemen conceived that it might lead to a remodelling and
an increase of the land-tax. Within the last four or five years
repeated attempts had been made to obtain this survey, and
Lard Sydenham especially had used every effort to obtain a
Committee with a view to that object, but he had been beaten,
and the matter remained still in abeyance. He was, however,
glad to see that there was an alteration in the views of Hon.
Gentlemen opposite, and that they were wiser than they had
been. But he was only fearful that there was not the disposi-
titan for he must repeat that where there was a will there was
a way.
Mr. DAF,BY conceived that this discussion could not pos-
sibly lead to any useful end. It was true that the Tithe Com-
mission would give them the returns of all the acres under
cultivation, but those returns contained no data to meet the
requirements of the llonourable Member fur Manchester,
for it was next to impossibility to get at the amount of agricul-
tural produce. 'I hey could not gunge the barns,_ nor ascertain
the amount of stock in its several conditions. No Peiger than
two years ago it was conceived that there was likely to be a
very large crop ; the straw, it was true, was a very large crop,
but when the grain came to be thrashed out of it, the yield
proved to be exceedingly light. What he would ask the Hon.
Gentleman then was, who was to furnish the information?
If it were not accurate it would be mischievous, and he thought
that any attempt to make it accurate would prove entirely
futile. For these reasons he should oppose the proposition.
Mr. BARING said that he was glad to see that such a sense
of the importance of this question was on both sides of the
House. He was aware that there was the utmost diMeulty
in obtaining correct statistical information on agricultural
topics. Lord Sydenham had used ever yexertion to obtain it,
but he had failed. Yet to the extent to which the Hon.
It'ember for Manchester desired the returns, he thought there
would be no difficulty. He feared some corn-law reason
for refusing the effort to obtain that information. What
might be a bugbear at first, was frequently found easy
of attainment afterwards, and if they began by making
these returns from year to year, they would be able to get
them more and more regularly. He was not sure whether he
should have risen on that occasion, were it not to refer to the
valuable statistical details presented by the Boa'd of Trade, and
commonly called Mr. Porter's Statistics of Trade. He re-
gretted exceedingly that these returns were now two years
behind-band, because the returns were of much service to the
country, and would be still more so if they were regularly
matte from year to year.
Sir W. JOLLIFFE was convinced these statistics could not
be attained without considerable difficulty, and even then he
should be inclined to question their accuracy. The Ho.
nourable Member for Bridport admitted that the
surveys were fifty per cent. erroneous ; and if this
statement were true it would be necessary to have another sur-
vey of the whole country before they could promise these
statistics. Now if they had to wait for that cheque, th&Hon.
Member for Manchester would have some time to waitbefore
he could see the eroduce.

Dr. BOW RING admitted any calculation could only be of
an approximate character, but experience would bring them as
near the truth as possible; and thus they- would form an
important element for the information of the country. Mr.
Porter furnished them with some valuable information upon
nearly all ether topics connected with trade, and he could see
no reason why they should not have correct returns of the
produce of land.

Mr. GLADSTONE said it would 'be imagined from the
arguments indulged in by Hon. Members opposite that the
Government lacked the will or the zeal necessary for obtain-
ing this information, but so far as he was concerned, he must
altogether disclaim any such indifference. He thought the in-
formation was valuable to the public at large, but
it was especially valuable to the agricultural community.
There was, however, great difficulty in the way of obtaining
it with any, degree of accuracy, for the farmer, had- not the
same opportunities for making calculations as other trades and
professions. So far from there being a disinclination on the
part of the Government to adopt steps on this subject, he be-
lieved they had been examining every class of officers, who
were in any degree, prima facie, capable of undertaking
the inquiry,. but none could yet be found, to
whom they could intrust so important and difficult a
matter. One Hon. Member opposite recommended that the
returns ought to be collected by the clergymen of the various
parishes throughout the country, but, for his part, be thought
they were sufficiently occupied in other matters without '
thrusting upon them other duties. Then, again, the Hon.
Member for Cockermouth had advised the House to entrust
the inquiry to the Tithe Commissioners, but, independently of
their being also sufficiently occupied they had not
pursued their operations into all the parishes of the country.
Up to the present moment many parishes had not come into
the views of the Commissioners, and with respect to those
parishes the functions of the Commissioners had ceased.—
( Hear, hear.) They came to this discussion under very un-
avourable circumstances. He would recommend that the
House should wait for full information, and he bad no doubt
that it would be shown that there were great difficulties in
the way of obtaining that information. There would be ex-
pense certainly. But he did not think that the use would
grudge the expense. There was nothing inquisitorial in the
inquiry, if they could, in the course of the spring, ascertain
the breadths of land employed in the course of the year upon
particular kinds of produce. The farmers had but little oppor-
tunity of stating what really affected them. He hoped, there-
fore, that when the House came to read the correspondence,
they iconfd be disposed to give the statements on both sides
their fullest eoniideration.
Mr. HUME thought that with all the time the Commis-
sioners had been engaged upon this inquiry they could have
given a full s'atement to th? House. The Commissioners of
Tithe Inquiry had had plenty of time, and he would undertake
to make a fuller report at no greater cost than 3,00 1. Whet
the Reform Bill was in progress he (Mr. Hume) suggested the
employment of the parish schoolmaster to do the duty of the re-
gistration. If the Government would oily take a lesson from
the practice of the East India Government they would see how
easily the proper returns would be made from local agents. In
every district in Bombay the whole of the produce, twice a-year,
was recet ded by an officer in each village. He holed the time
was coming when we should have similar returns of the produce
of every acre in the kingdom. It appeared, to him that they
were making difficulties which did not exist.—(Hear, hear.)
Colonel SIBTHORP said tat he would object as much to
a man coming to discover the produce of his land as he would
to one who came to Darn what was the quantity of wine
his cellar contained.—(Laughter.) Nothing could be more
absurd.

Mr. VILLIERS thought that when the Gallant Member
made that observation, he forgot the distinction between the
produce of land and the contents of his cellar. Ile would tell

him the difference—one was for food •for the public, and the
other for his awn private use. He di() not undertake to supply
them with wine.—(Laughter.) What they wanted to know
was, what was the amount of fond in the country, which infor-
mationhe did not think it ddficult to obtain ; but the Govern-

went did not wish if to be known what the difference waa be-

tween the supply and the demand. The Hon. Member for
Lincoln stated that the tenants objected to the information,
through fear there would be an immediate rise in the rent.
They had given their sanction to persons being sent on the
continent, to obtain information whereon to found their ar-

rangements. He only mentioned that to show that they thought
it possible to know and, to learn correctly what was the

amount of the produce when it suited their purposes.
Mr. DENISON did not think there was any unwillingness

on the part of the Government to seek for this information.
For one, he should be glad to see such returns produced, and
considered that it could be accomplished and might be ob-
taMed by parties properly appointed. If the machinery were
geed, be was sure that the results would be beneficial. He
hoped that the Government would pay attention toast) sugges-

- - •
tines which were made.
'Haled
witouhltdd, bee
heshiadr. plan.MnoltlapilroEpßoseGdiaßS°
competent bythe
lopkinmiohnero
Gentleman the SecretaryHonourabfoler
be
ffoti.‘lNt.e'Swaaurknd to ire tlheomwosats been
however,el
authorityPriesenreotdno that
t-
h-thee
subject.tho
Home When the
Department Right
ohed Hon.
h
im
fluarnndi s h
sowne d b ywtiht
he
wh ether it would
Government with regard te.nt
de-
sirable to have correct statistical information 'gnu
the United Kingdom, he said
barley, wheat, and oats, fancTitayti°onf
that there could not be a more imperativedutyfonf the
od the
people were supplied Go-
vernment than to ascertain the quantity o
with, and that he was surprised
that the Government bad not got such returns long before.
The Hon. Gentleman concluded by recommending the House
to appoint a Committee to inquire into the best mode of ascer-
taining the produce of the land.
Sir ROBERT PEEL had not the slightest objection to the
production of the information. As to the poor-law guardians,
he doubted the policy of mixing up poor-law unions with_poli-
tical objects. He doubted the policy of employing Poor-law Com-
missioners to furnish the information required, considering it
much better to have parties appointed for that purpose. He con-
sidered that the hest plan would be to have the correspondence
before them, together- with The statements of the Poor-law
Commissioners. He trusted the Hon. Member for Manchester
would not' press the subject to a division, as he could assure
him the Guyer nnient would be most happy to give all the assis-
tance to obtain the information. His Right Hon. Friend the
la.e President of the :'Bottrd •of Trade while in
office—('Hear, hear)tt-had dune all r- an -his power
to obtain information. He thought the Executive-Govern-
moot would be better able to form a plan than a Committee ;
but if it was Lund necessary, there could not be the slightest
objection to that Committee.
Mr. MAW. 0 thought it would be better if his Hon.
Friend ,hould wait till the papers had been produced.
Mr. M. GIBSON then withdrew the motion.
On the motion of Dr.. BOW RING the following Members
wore appointed in Committee on colonial accounts:—Dr..
Bowring, Mr. Hope, Mr. Spooner, Mr. Trotter, Mr. 111•Gttachy,
Sir Thomas Hepburn, Mr. H. J. Mr. Gtogan, Me-
Pringle, Mr Forster, Mr. Cobden, Mr. Bouverie, Mr. Aldam,-•
Mr. Hume, and Mr. P. M. Stewart.
'I he Customs Duties 'was reporied, the Bill ordered- to
be engrossed, and read a third t4me to-morrow.
The Public Museums- Bill was•reported, and oschTed,to be
read a third time to-morrow.

The Glass Excise Dirties Bill IS as reported, and ordered to
be rfacla third time to•morrow.