The Sun.
London, England, 1827-05-18 00:00:00

MISS TURNER'S MARRIAGE.

Lord ELDON presented a petition frona.Edward Gibbon
Wakefield, stating that the petitioner had heard with our-
prize of the presentation of a petition to their Lordships,
praying that leave might be given to bring in a Bill to
annul the marriage which had taken place between him
and Ellen Turner. The petitioner complained that be had
not been served with a copy of that petition, and expressed
his conviction that he would be able to disprove some of
the allegations contained in it. The petitioner prayed,
that in case their Lordships allowed such a Bill to be in-
troduced, he might be allowed to appear at their bar,
either by counsel or personally, to oppose it. But as
the petitioner was now conaned in Newgate prison, it
would be impossible for him to attend without an order
from the House, and he therefore prayed that their Lord-
ships might be pleased to make an order, directing the pe-
titioner to he brought up to their Lordships' bar, at such
times and upon such occasions as their Lordships might
think fit.

„The petition was ordered to be referred to a Committee
of the whole House.

Shortly afterwards, on the motion of Lord REDES-
DALE, the House resolved itself into a Committee.

The Clerk having read the Petition of William Turner,
as well as the petition which had been just presented,
Lord GROSVENOR rose. He had not the slightest
personal knowledge of Mr. Turner, but from all he had
heard he was induced to believe _him to be a man of the
very highest character. He sincerely pitied that gentle-
man, and in order to do him the promptest justice,
their Lordships ought not to lose a single moment
in acting upon his petition. It was impossible to conceive
the distress and agony of mind in which Mr. Turner with
all the tender feelings of a father, must be placed.—(Hear,
hear. )—Under these circumstances the Noble Lord thought
that if there existed already no precedent, they ought to go
out of their way and establish one. But he was, however,
happy to hear that there was a preee&nt by which they
might be guided. lie alluded to the case of Miss
Wharton, which occurred in 1691. In that instance,
force had at first been used, and the lady afterwards, by
great persuasion, had been Induced to consent to the mar-
riage. In the present case, although "-no actual force bad
been resorted to, there was unquestionably a moral force.
But whatever difficulties he might bare felt on elis part of
the case, they were removed, and his mind greatly relieved,
by the remark which had fallen from the Noble Lord who
lately filled the office of Lord Chancellor, and whose
opinion must necessarily be entitled to great weight. That
Noble Lord said, that in many instances, fraud was equiva-
lent to force, and he (Lord Grosvenor) considered, that ifever
there was a case in which fraud should be so interpreted,
it was the one then before their Lordships. Justice should
be rendered to this young lady, and it would be only real
justice, in proportion to its promptness. He had been
informed that the Ecclesiastical Courts would grant no
relief in the present case, inasmuch, however, as the
young lady, whether married or not, could not be called as
a witness. Now if their Lordships were to act on the
suggestion which had been thrown out, and pass a law for
,the purpose of legalizing her evidence, this would cause
a long delay, and perhaps such a law should be
prospective. If it were otherwise, it might be opposed
on the ground that it was ex post facto legislation. Un-
der all the circumstances of the case, he implored their
Lordships, as speedily as the forms of their House would
admit, to declare null and void the marriage, even though
it were raid according to the laws of Scotland.—(Hear.)
Lord LAUDERDALE said, that no man could read

with greater horror the proceedings of Wakefield than he
did, and no man could more sincerely wish that the poor
young lady should be released from her engagement than
he; but he had a duty to perform, which was superior
to any appeal to his feelings. It was, that as a
Peer of Parliament, he should guard the laws of
his country, and the proceedings of that House, and pre-
vent them from running forward into a dangerous
precedent. And if ever there was a case in which
it would be dangerous to establish a precedent, it was this
—where more than in any other flew were likely to give
way to their feelings. This-was a tenfold reason why their
Lordships should consult their judgment, and that only, if
their object was to do their duty. His Noble Friend mast ad-
mit there was no precedent for the present proceeding, for, in
truth, the case of Campbell and Miss Wharton furnished no
such precedent, for. there,' the very moment the mar-
riage was performed, • Campbell absconded from the
jurisdiction of the Ecclesiastical Courts of the country.
This was a most material distinction.—(Hear, hear.)—
NoW,• if lie understood the principles upon which
the High Parliament interfered to give redress, it
was this,—that as the ordinary tribunals could give no
relief, the party injured should apply to Parliament, as the
last resource for a remedy. This was exactly the case of
Campbell, who bad fled the country, and could not be brought
within the jurisdiction of any Court. What a material distinc-
tion from the case of Wakefield ! On examining the petition
of Mr. Turner, he saw one allegation as to the laws
of Scotland, namely, that no Court in that .coun-
try' •could absolve a vinculo Mairimonii, and there-
fore that he could get no remedy from Parliament.—
When the Noble'Lord saw that assertion he was inclined
to doubt another which followed it in the petition, and
which stated that the evidence of the young lady was not
admissible in 'an Ecclesiastical Court. He, for his own
part would give no credence unless he had good
legal authority on the • subject, for most certainly he
would not rely on.the declaration of a party; but, if the
law were so, he thought the wisest course would be to pass
an Act which would leave the admissibility of
such evidence to the discretion of the Judge.—
After some further observations he Lid, that perhaps
he had attended too much to the proceedings on divorce
bills before that House, and was disgusted with the man-
ner in which they were conducted. He therefore
implored the House not to establish a precedent which
would open the may -to great abuses. The pre-
sent was a case of gross fraud. There might come
forward some other case of minor fraud ; and their
Lordships having interfered in the first case, would proba-
bly be induced to interpose in the second, and so they
would proceed gradually. and step by step, until they
would be called upon to give relief in every instance
where a man happened to run away with a lady of
large fortune. With respect to the allegation in the
petition that the Scots Law could not dissolve a marriage, he
begged'to refer their Lordships to a hook of very high au-
thority on the subject—the work of a Mr. Hutchinson.
In that book there was a case mentioneed, in which
Allan, a schoolmaster at Edinburgh, married a young
girl who was under his care as pupil. The case occurred in
1703. The girl was turned of twelve, but it appeared
that undue influence anti 'fraud had been used in
bringing about the marriage, which, however, had not been
consummated. The marriage was subsequently dissolved,
although it hpd been performed by a clergyman. This false
assertion as to the law of Scotland created a 'doubt in his
mind as to the petitioner's (Mr. T's.) version of the law of
England, when he stated that the Ecclesiastical Court could
not receive the evidence of his daughter. The Noble Lord
performed a painful duty, but in 'conscience and honour
he felt himself bound to oppose this dangerous prece-
dent.—(Loud cries of hear.)
Lord REDESDALE said, that the present was a case
of extreme difficulty, that relief ought to be granted
in some way or other, if the facts set forth in the
petition should be proved. If it were to go before
the Ecclesiastical Courts, it would remain iu them for three
or four years—indeed for a much longer period. Allusion
had been made to the case of Miss Wharton : now it so
happened that his own family was connected both with
that of Miss Wharton, and the gentleman with whom
she had been subsequently married. The Noble Lord
was, therefore, in possession of much of the family
anecdotes, and of the private history of that case. He
also had the notes of the proceedings, but these were
not, perhaps, quite perfect ; for their Lordehips must
know, that at that period notes were not taken cor-
rectly, nor with the same accuracy as at present.
Indeed it was generally admitted that the notes of
the Brandon Peerage could not have contained the
full evidence taken in that case. It was true
that Mr. Campbell had gone abroad immediately after
the marriage, but it was to France, and there he,was well
known, and might easily be cited ; indeed, to the best of
the Noble Lord's recollection lie was an officer in
the French service. He was also a brother of
the Duke of Argyle, So that there could 'be
no difficulty in making him out. The Noble Lord de-
fended the precedent in that case, and said that if their
Lordships waited until the Ecclesiastical Court should de-
cide in this case, it was very possible that one or other of
the parties might die in the mean time, and if so, the
marriage could not be dissolved-*--(Hear, hear)—so that
the surviving party would have all the rights which
could be derived from the most valid marriage, and
thus, Mr. Wakefield, if he survived the lady, would
reap all the fruits of his crime.

Lord TENTERDEN then recapitulated nearly the
whole facts of this case, and commented very strongly
upon the base motives from which this conspiracy had
arisen, namely, lucre and gain, and upon the cruel
frauds which had been exercised to put it in execution.
His Lordship then entered into a long explanation of the
law, in which a crime committed by fraud wall punish-
able in the same manner as one committed by force ; but
his observations being almost inaudible below the bar, we
could not catch their bearing. His Lordship then alluded
to the case cited by the Noble Lord (Lauderdale),
in which he differed from him in some points, but even
admitting, a 3 he did, that she (Miss Turner) could not be
examined before the Ecclesiastical Court, it would be
against all justice, and the intention of all laws, that he
should for a day be allowed to designate her as he himself
had heard him, by the degrading title of his wife.—
The circumstances were extraordinary—the crime was
extraordinary, and, in the Noble Lord's opinion, the
measure for redress should be extraordinary ;, and he
considered that their Lordships should let this defendant
know, and should let every body know, that if they
should, for the sake of lucre, commit such a crime,
as the present, either by fraud or force, that they ought
to be deprived of all possibility of repeating it.
The Earl of LAUDERDALE rose and explained some
parts of his former speech, which had been misunderstood
by Lord Tenterden.

The question was then put whether leave should be given
to bring in a Bill to annul the marriage of Edward Gibbon
Wakefield and Ellen Turner—lt was agreed to unanimously.
Several petitions were then presented from Agricul-
turists against the Corn Laws.
CATHOLIC CLABIS.

Lord FARNHAM. proposed to lay upon the Table a
petition signed by 20,800. Protestants of Armagh, against
further concession to the Roman Catholics.

THE ADMINISTRATION.
Earl BIANVERS, on the question, that the petition do
lie upon the Table, hoped to be allowed to trespass for a

The Earl of ABERDEEN. wished to make a few ob-
servations on the situation in which recent transactions had
placed the Administration of the country. It was difficult
for any Noble Lord who had supported the late Cabinet, to
avow decided hostility to the present, seeing that the decla-
ration had been so repeatedly made, that it was formed
upon the principles of Lord Liverpool, unless that hostility
were founded upon personal objections, which, for one, he
(Lord Aberdeen) disavowed. He might, indeed, follow the
example of some Noble Lords, whom he now saw opposite,
and, by way of contrast, resist a Government -on Lord
Liverpool's principles, as they who had formerly opposed
it, at this moment as heartily gave it their assistance._
(Hear, hear.)—Such, however, was not his notion of con-
sistency, though it might be theirs. He had heard of a
coalition, and it had been pronounced disgusting. and un-
gatural ; but he apprehended that it was a great mistake to
call it a coalition ; in the proper sense of the word, no coali-
tion had taken place. A ,coalition was the union of two
parties meeting upon equal terms, where the respective
systems, political principles and opinions are duly and
equally weighed, and -mutual concessions made. The
connection recently formed might be called an accession or
an adhesion (for that was the more usual phrase) ; and the
principle of that adherence he took to be the same as that
which would govern the accession of any Noble Lord, or
other individual in the country. Not only had it been re-
peatedly declared that the present Government was formed
on the basis of Lord Liverpool's Administration, but
the Right Honourable Gentleman at the head of it
had asserted that lie adhered with unabated affec-
tion and fixed determination to the principles of Mr.
Pitt. . The Noble Secretary of State opposite had also
declared that he should consider himself and his colleagues
disgraced .if they deviated from them.—(Hear, bear 0—
The Noble Lords. who acceded, therefore, to the Right
Hon. Gentleman's Administration, and who consented that
he should give impulse and direction to the whole system
and march of Government, and who, in order to accede,
had gone over to the other side of the House, must of
course have known upon what terms they so consented to
give their countenance and support, and all objections
must resolve themselves into -Considerations of a personal,
nature. Report indicated that the Noble Marquess oppo-
site (Lansdown) either actually formed, or was about to
form, a part of the Administration; and he, least of all,
would suppose that he (Lord A.) felt objections of that
nature to him. On the contrary, no man could be 'more
willing to acknowledge his ability to serve the Crown or
the People in any capacity. A good deal had been said of
late on the singular manner in which some of the appoint-
ments had been filled up—that a Provisional Government
had been formed by provisional arrangements. He thought
more importance had been attached to this circumstance
than it really deserved. It was doubtless in the power of
the Crown to limit the period of service of its advisers, as
it did that of its troops—(Cheers and laughter)—and the
House had not much reason to complain of this exercise
of the Royal prerogative. If .the Secretary of State for
Foreign Affairs were only provisionally appointed, so much
the worse for the country. No man who knew his ability
as well as he (Lord A.) would entertain the least doubt of
his capability to fulfil the duties of his situation at all
times and for all time, whether permanently or vice-
rially.—(Cheers.)—There were, however, •some circum-
stances in the formation of the Government, which com-
pelled him to withhold his entire and undivided confidence.
He alluded particularly to the situation of that question,
which had for many years occupied so much attention.
He admitted that he had never been able to bring himself
to view that subject---as to its importance, its advantages,
or its dangers—in the same light 'in which it was looked
at by many others. He had always thought that there had
been great exaggeration on both sides. For many years he
had supported the claims of the Roman Catholics of Ire-
land ; but in consequence of various occurrences of late
years, his support had gradually become more reluctant.
Nevertheless, that support which he had hitherto given, he
should probably continue to give, unless he saw some ex-
traordinary reasons for changing the course he had pur-
sued. That the Noble Lordt who formerly occupied
benches on that side should have gone over to the other
side of the House certainly did excite his surprise, espe-
cially when they had done so knowing, as they must. have li
known—for it was not attempted to be denied—that the
Administration which they were now supporting had been
formed under a species of engagement, that the question on
which they professed to feel so much interest should not be
made a Cabinet measure. That engagement was the more
curious, inasmuch as it afforded a very strong reason why
those Noble Lords should net support the present Admi-
nistration ; for in Lord Liverpool's Ministry, the majority
of the Cabinet being in favour of keyping the law regarding
the Catholics in its existing state, it was out of the power
of the minority to make it a Cabinet measure ; but here,'
the majority being in favour of the alteration of that law,
and the Noble Lords giving it their support because
of that circumstance, it was natural to expect that
they would have required that majority to undertake
for the success of that question ; and if ~e4e majority
refused to do so, that they would not feel sufficient
confidence in such an Administration to have given it their
support--(Hear, hear.)—These Noble Lords affected a
great anxiety upon that question, and yet they consented
to its postponement, for it was postponed ; and by that
postponement a want of confidence regarding it was mani-
fested ; so that it could no longer be doubted that its suc-
cess was less probable now than before—(Hear, hear. )
There were other matters, besides those to whiclsabe had
referred, that induced him to come to that opinion; and
in stating what these matters were, lie knew he was:touch-
Mg upon a subject that was somewhat delicate, but the
necessity and importance of the case seemed to him a full

justification for so doing. lie alluded to the report of the
speech of a Fright Reverend Friend of his, and addressed by
that Right Reverend Gentleman tnthe Clergy of his dio-
cese. Their Lordships might probably have seen that
4peech, but he had reason to believe that all the particu-
!ars contained in it were substantially correct. In that
speech were contained many cogent arguments against the
probability of the success of the Catholic Question. Now,
he should wish any of the Right Reverend Gentlemen to
inform him how the arguments in that speech could be
reconciled with the conduct they might be called on to
pursue, under the present Administration. Whether they
were responsible for the arguments contained in that speech,
or whether they were, in fact, the authors of those argu-
ments, he was not quite certain ; but still that speech had
not been uttered on an occasion wanting either in solem-
nity or character. He asked the Riglt Rev. Bench oppo-
site him, whether the Government had not acted upon
those arguments, and. postponed the consideration of the
question in consequence of their urgency? If that were
,4), then he asked then\ whether they did not feel the dan-
ger to be more remote than under the Administration over
which Lord Liverpool had presided ; and yet it would
seem that that danger could not be so remote, since his
Noble Friends had gone over from that side of the House,
because they said that they expected a probable and a
speedy determination of the measure in their favour. How
could these two contradictory opirritns be reconciled with
each other ? Either the promise of a neutral Administra-
tion was intended to be kept, or it had been made merely
to delude their Lordships ; and the Noble Lords from that
side of the House had gone over to the other, acting upon
the Jesuitical maxim that such conduct was proper, because
the end justified the means.—(Hear, bear.) The ques-
tion regarding the Catholics was said to be an important
one. He thought it possessed less importance than many
were inclined to attribute to it; but in this instance it in-
volved the honour and character of public men, which he
thought of the utmost importance. Their character and
honour, in this case, he thought they had rendered very
questionable; and, under these circumstances, it was not
to be wondered at that he could not afford his entire confi-
dence to an Administration formed as this had been. (Hear.)
The Earl of ABINGDON apologised for troubling their
Lordships at this moment, which he did for the purpose of
denying, in the most positive terms, that those who sat on
the side of the House with him formed any part of what
might he called a factious Opposition. He trusted that
his conduct would not be considered in that light. All his
life he had been a strenuous supporter of the Government
He had been so from feelings of loyalty and attachment to
his King and Constitution—to the Constitution as esta-
blished in Church and State ; his support had also arisen
from the conviction, that the principles upon which they
had acted were the best calculated to maintain both Church
and State.—(Hear.) He was, therefore, of opinion, that
a departure from those principles would- endanger the wel-
fare both of Church and State. With these sentiments,
how was it possible for him to sit on the other side of the
House, and to pledge himself to a concurrence with an Ad-
ministration whose principles it was impossible to ascer-
tain ? On a former occasion, when he had spoken upon
this subject, some thought he had stated too much—some
notenough—and some there were who thought he had
stated nothing at all.—(A laugh.) He had therefore risen
at this moment to explain his intentions, and having done
that he should trouble the Lordships no further.
Lord HOLLAND and some other Noble Lords rose at
the same moment, but the cry for his Lordship became ge-
neral, and he proceeded:—lt has always been my endea-
vour to abstain from troubling your Lordships with any ob-
servations at any time, except upon questions at the mo-
ment under your consideration, or likely soon to be brought
before you for discussion ; but it is the fashion now-a-days,
since the Recess at least, to introduce discussions totally ir-
relevant to the consideration of any subject, involving no
general principles on which it would be likely that your
Lordships' decisions should be required, but only making
profeisions of faith on the one side, or examining into pro-
fessions of faith on the other; not only with respect to the
Government, but to those individuals who are connected
with it, or intend to give it their support. It has hap-
pened that recently I have changed, not so much my corn
pany as my seat, and some observations have been made
upon that circumstance; and I am put upon my trial, not
for any opinion I have expressed—not for any vote I have
given—not for any principle I have entertained, but for
the seat I have thought fit to occupy. _(Hear, hear. )
I am called on to explain why I have changed my seat,
and why those who have acted with me have changed
their seats at the same moment. It has been said, that
I and my Noble Friends have hitherto disagreed with his
Majesty's Government. That is not strictly true ;
though if we had disagreed upon all questions, our dis-
agreement would have been much more strong with those
who have quitted his Majesty's service, than with those
who have remained in it; yet are we charged with incon-
sistency by those who have quitted that service—a charge
which I again deny. It seems to me, that in point of con-
sistency our case and their own arerearly similar ; 'for if
they claim the merit of-consistency in opposing a Govern-
ment with which they find fault, surely we have our equal
claim to that merit in supporting a government which we
see approaches most nearly to those principles we have so
long advocated. The Noble Lord who spoke last but one
put the question of our conduct upon that of Catholic
Emancipation, and seemed at a loss to comprehend the
course we have pursued, as he supposed that the present
Government would act with regard to that question upon
the same principles as those which had distinguished the
Administration of Lord Liverpool. Now, I hold that not
I to be exactly the case.—(Cheers from both the Opposition
and Ministerial benches.) I say, my Lords, that I hold
that not to be the case, because I do not think that the
present Government holds, entirely, the same principles
as Lord Liverpool's Government did.—(Hear.) I have
always heard it stated, that a person most inimical to the
Catholic Claims was at the head of that Government. ( Hear. )
One of two things is true—either it was as I state, or it was
not ; I am alluding to what has been stated as one of the
reasons for the resignation of those Noble Lords who have
lately quitted his Majesty's service; of whose resignation I
do not complain, since it will be better for my argument if
what they have done be founded upon right reasoning--and
I say, that whether the general principles of' Lord Liver-
pool's Government are to be departed from or not, this I
know, that the present head of the Administration differs
so far at least from Lord Liverpool, that he is not inimical
to the Catholic claims.—(Hear, hear. )—The Noble
Earl who lately addressed your Lordships, seemed to
suppose that those who were favourable to these claims,
and who now gave their support to the Government,
ought to haVe required, if they had been dealt fairly with,
that as there was a majority in the Cabinet, the Govern-
ment should be pledged to concede the Catholic Question ;
at least this appeared to me to be his opinion, when
he called on me to explain why I sit here, and why, with-
out the certainty of carrying that question, I give my sup-
port to Government? My reason is shortly this—that
without any such absolute pledge, I can forward the debris
which I have long supported. What, my Lords, on the
one hand, is likely to be the consequence of my taking my
seat on this side of the Hous&..-(I beg pardon, my Lords,
for speaking so much of myself, as if I were a person of
such great importance) ; what, I say, is likely to be the
consequence of that change of my position, and what, on
the other band, would have been the consequence of my
remaining on the other side of the House? lam willing
to try the propriety of the change I have made, even upon
the Catholic Question alone; and I say, that when I had
reason to believe that that Government, which was com-
posed of individuals, to whom I felt I could unite myself
upon that question, might not have been constituted, as it
now is, without my support, and beyond this, that those
to whom lam opposed upon that question, might then
have formed the Government, I was justified in affording
that support which would answer, if not the immediate
success, at least the ultimate advantage of that question
which I had so long advocated, and would prevent the
adoption of those measures which, throughout my political
life, I had opposed, deprecated, and lamented.—(Hear,
hear.)—The same arguments, therefore, upon which Noble
Lords on the other side maintained their consistency, are
sufficient- to prove the consistency of my Noble Friend and
• myself:—(Hear, hear.)—l say, therefore, that we are not
fairly without a test of the consistency of both parties, and
Noble Lords upon the opposite side of the House can easily
determine, if they please, whether a majority of your
Lordships can justify their opinions by your own, and can
afford to place your confidence in his Majesty's Ministers:
Those Noble Lords have been called a factious Opposition,
and they seem jealous of the expression ; but I think I may
assure them, that when they have sat there a little longer,
they will not be so jealous of the use of that expression.—
At present, however, Ido not wish to fix it upon them. I
am willing to believe that there is nothing factious or uu-

constitutional in their conducfp,but tinusr*yi tbit front
what rhave observed of
improvement
illey impatient.
.." • .
I will apply to them an mprovement or a 'tale of Doctor
Swift made by a .Noble Earl who lately held. a blue
ribbon, and as that improvement seethe to me much better
adapted to the purposes of my argument than to those to
which-his Lordship applied, must be •allowed to quote
it upOn this occasion. The tale, as he stated it, was this :
About 26 years ago a complete change of a very curious
kind occurred in this country; all the men were changed
into women, and all the women into men ;: in that change
the maids of honour became officers Of the Blues, and-the
officers of the Blues were converted into maids of honour.
—(A laugh.) The Noble Earl said that those officers of
the Blues who became maids of honour, though they might
at first walk with "too great manliness of step, and in other
respects conduct themselves- rather indecorously for elegant
and delicate females, yet; On the whole, at the end-Of a fort-
night or a month, they became as respectable, as decomui, and
is genteel as the real maidstf honour had been' before them ;
hut that the maids of honour who had beedine 'Officerei
of the Blues were converted into such a set of trouble-
some, impatient, quarrelsome persons as had never been
peen before ; theygive themselves up so much to swearing,
brawling, blaspheming, and drinking, and were so constantly
At the head of troops of blackguard boys, kickitig up such
riots, that there was no place into which they went that
it was not' eared they would destroy.—(A laugh.)—Such
was the description which-the Noble Earl gave of the change
;a the maids of honour; and -that description, I think, I
may apply to the Noble Lords opposite, although I am
quite unwilling to describe their conduct hy- the term fac-
dous.—(Hear, and laughter.)—l say, -my Lords, that I
will not call them factions, because I hold it to be their un-
rlonbttsl privilege, as Members of Patliament, to enforce
their opposition to the Administration in every cOnstint;
rional way ; and I only wish that in doing so they would
,ring the matter to a plain issue, by putting a direct gees-
ion before the House, instead of adopting means which I
link derogatory to the dighity of the House, and to men
engaged in the service of the country—l mean the course
sow employed of throwing dirt upon one -another, without
toy definite object. I am required to explain what
:re the principles of the Administration, and how fiar.
they are engaged to act one way or the other, and
.0 what extent my Honourable Friends and myself
tgree or disagree with them. That question will be best
answered by our conduct ; but as it is put with a view of
.aisting imputations upon us, I will answer these impute-
ions, by asking, in my turn, what vote have I altered__
what opinion have I changed—what principle have I
abandoned, since I quitted my former seat ? I answer
'teen seated on this side of the House, nor the first in
.tone.—(Cheers.)—This is not the first time that I have
.which I have supported Ministers in whom I thought I
ould place confidence. When last I was seated in: this
dace, the queStion of Catholic Emancipation (a term
.vhich custom has rendered convenient, but which in itself
i consider to be improper) had lately been moved and re-
ected in both Houses of Parliament, and an Administration
.vas then formed, that intended to pursue a lenient, prudent,
,nd a conciliating syttem, and to keep that question at
est for the time. So far, therefore, that Administration
vas similar to the present; yet, when I then sat on this
.ide of the House, I was not taunted with inconsistency,
although I felt, at that time, as strongly as I do now, the im-
tortance of conceding:what • • d Catholic Emancipation.
--(Hear, hear.)—l do no. o say that I will not,
ither in this House or out o. -very thing I can that
i think calculated to-forward , ermination of that
mestion ; and I ask whether I shown have been forwarding
t, when, by my hesitation to support the present Govern-
nent, I should have been assisting in the attainment of
tower by those who entertain, what I am willing to admit is
t: constitutional, a sincere, but, at the same time, an ire
ieterate opposition to the success of that question ? Those
who entertain the strongest opinions against the concee--
ions claimed by the Roman Catholics are now no longei
?art of tilt Governrnent.—(Hear.)---The Noble Earl wh-,
eecently addressed your Lordshipsoupposed that my Noble
Friends and myself bad been •in constant opposition to
Lord Liverpool's Governnient. In that opinion he was
ncorrect ; for I must say, that for the last three years,
here has not been one division in this House, on which I
lave voted, without having the honour of the concurrence
tf the Noble Earl at the head of the Council ; and I think
I may add, that with-the 'exception of divisions upon the
Catholic Question, there -have only been two within that
-ime in which I have been oppoted to Lord Lh'erpool him-
elf.—(Hear.)—lf the Right Hon. Gentleman, now at the
lead of his Majesty's Government, adopts, in many cases,
-he same principles which I have long advocitted, must 1
,ppose him, because he does not agree with me in all ?
dust Igo to him, and say, "Di you renounce-the opinion,
Titi formerly held regarding the principles of Mr. Pitt,
with which I never can concur, for if you do not, I never
.an support your Government." I say, my Lords, can
oi to him, and put these questions, and insist upon hit
Leveeing with me in every thing, before I consent to afford
rim any portion of my support? I say not ; and I further
assert, that if men always pursued such a line of conthee,
lisagreements could never end, and all Administration,
would as much resemble a rope of sand, as did those Noble
.ords now sitting on the cross bench, who, when they re
ired from his Majesty's Councils, declared that they has
'ot acted in concert in so doing.--(Cheers.) I agree in
he opinion stated by a Noble Lord, who had held office
,early forty years, and who for some years had thought of
.esigning before he could positively make up his mind
ipon the subject—(Hear, hear, and a laugh)—that the
eight of resignation is a sacred right, belonging to a
11inisier—a right which he may at any time exercise,
aid which I should have been sorry to have prevented
ny of those Noble Lords from exercising at any time
hey might have thought fit.—(Hear, and laughter.)---
I am at a loss to conceive even, on what grounds the
\loble Lords opposite differ from myself, since I do not by
uy change of seat pledge myself to support the Govern-
vent in all cases . whatever, and since, in supporting a
atntinuation of that foreign policy which has been pursued
,hr the fast three years, lam only supporting that to -which
those Noble Lords themselves must be supposed to have
riven their full concurrence so long as they continued
Members of Lord Liverpool's Government.—(Hear.)—.
'half the difference between those Noble Lords and myself
a small, it must be at least equally small between the
recent Administration who continue those measures, and
ny Noble Friends and myself, who hays so frequently be-.
ore that period pressed them on the attention of the Go,
:ernment. When I consider what has recently been
'he policy of Government with regard to the Corn Laws,
,vith regard to the Commercial System of this country,
and herrelations to Foreign Powers, I cannot for the life
if me help thinking that these measures would not have
tappened to have been adopted, if the Right Hon. Gentle-
nan had not been in the Go, eminent ; and that if he
,hould be no longer thereia different line of policy would
inmediately be pursued—(Hear, hear.)—There are cer-
Ainly some:subjects on which I differ from that Right Hon.
ientleman ; one of these is the subject of Parliamentary
leform ; yet I know no right which any body possesses to
dl me, that because I differ from him on that subject,
owe no right to support him on any other. I formed a part
.I the Government twenty years ago ; .and although I then
from
meld the same opinions that I do • now upon the subject of
SlCtem.
deform, yet I did not then think it necessary to suornit that
mestion to the House. I have supported it from the time of
lenyt
jen
early, n upon 4; and Ideclare, ayout)h; Ihavealwaysdift.ere T hrei Eight
Hfm
in all
lie bottom of myheart, that I shall not vote differently upon
that subject in whatever part of this House I may take
ny seat.—(Cheers.)—Agraeing, therefore, as I do with
the present administration upon many measures, I shall
support them in all.those measures in which we do con-
; but I shall not be influenced, by my change of seat,
o support measures with which I-do' not agree.--(llear,
hear.)---I differ from the present Opposition in many
things, but in none more than in- the coarse they are ne,e
dursuing, in which crimination on one side will lead to
recrimination on the ether; neither Of which can be in-
'-lulged -in without lowering the 'character and honour of
those who employ-such means in the eyes of the
(Hear, • hear.)—But when I hear, as I have heard, a Noble
Duke calling the Right Hon. Gentleman at the head of
'of the Administration the most profligate politician he ever
heard of, -I -cannot avoid recolleeting that that Noble Duke
has for some time supported that Right Hon. Gentleman •
is Minister for Foreign Affairs, and as the manager of the
affairs of his Majesty in the House of Commons. That
he has supported that Right Hon. Gentleman is true ; he
has supported the Administration regularly, I cannot say
cordially, because lately I must acknowledge I have wit-
nessed in him some coldness, especially upon that topic on
which I for one have given the Right Hon.. Gentleman my
cordial, disinterested,' and uniform support..—(Hear.)-1
confess that, looking at all these circumstances, I cannot
conceive how those Noble Lords can find fault with us,
who are convinced of the necessity and importance of carry-
ing that question, for the support we are willing to give to
a Government favourable to. our view of it, when they
must kitow that We do so because we conceive we shall
serve our warn principles better by supporting the present
Government thawbropposiogit; and,- thereby risking the
formation of a Govermisent entirely opposed to us upon
thatenbjeet. Ido maintain, my Lords, that lam hot te
be °hailed with inconsistency fdr iupportiug the Right
Hon. Gentleman, because I withheld my support from him.
during the two last years in' Which, he wag a Member ot
Lord Liverpool's Aduiinistration—au Administration, a.
head of which, and the majority of which, by ttiir opposi.

Con to the question which I advocate, afforded me sufficient
grounds for opposing them. But when I find that there,
are topics on which I can agree with that Right Hon. Gent
I feel, is I always have felt, ready to afford him my sup- •
port, ha order to further those. measures in which we both
concur. There are topics on which we may still disagree, '
and one of which, I mean the repeal of the Test and
Corporation Acts, will probably soon conic under the
consideration of the House ; and I declare, that if I amn
ealled upon to move it, I will do so let me sit where I may
—(hear, hear, hear.)—l would ask those who idolize the
memory of Mr. Pitt—and I will speak of him with re-
spect, because I know there are some who do idolize him
—whether he never formed part of an Administration
where differences existed upon certain subjects? I ask them
whether, while he was Chancellor of the Exchequer, he
did not move the subject of Parliamentary Reform ? I ask
them whether year after year he did not recommend the
abolition of the Slave Trade? And although I have
heard, that if he had applied all the abilities he possessed
to the carrying of that measure, it might have succeeded
sooner, yet I never did hear him attacked for forming part of
an Administration in which be differed from many of his
colleagues upon those two subjects. If those Noble Los& will
go into the history of Mr. Pitt's life, they will find that he
advocated measures in whichhe differed from those persons
with whom he was associated, and they will also discover
that he even formed part of what he himself thought at the
time a provisional Government. To the utmost extent,
therefore, can I defend myself and my conduct upon the
example of Mr. Pitt. I beg to apologise to your Lord-
ships for having detained you so long upon this subject ;
but perhaps you will permit me, as I have entered upon the
discussion, to say a few words on what has fallen from
Noble Lords on the other side of the House upon another
subject. I art ready to acknowledge their right of
resigning: I will suppose that all that has been said
upon the subject of concert is mere stuff and idle
rumour, but then I must say—and they will excuse me
the use of this term—that they acted very foolishly, if, on
determining to resign, they did not concert together for the
purpose of rendering that resignation effectual in the way
they proposed, and if they did not combine together for the
purpose of inducing his Majesty to reconsider the appoint-
ment of those to whom he had committed the administra-
tion of his government. I find no fault with them for
having exercised the right of resignation ; indeed, there is
no proceeding that has given me such hearty joy for many
years past—(hear and laughter)—since I think with them
that what has happened must be a great step towards the
accomplishment of those measures which they deprecate,
but which I have always supported.—(Hear, hear.)—But
the Noble Lords must not take advantage of these things
in both ways--they must not say that they will oppose the
Government, because they fear the consequences of its
measures will be to exclude the exclusionists, and will
ultimately lead to some relaxation of those laws which
we wish to see relaxed; and also, at the same time,
turn round upon us, who disagree with them, and
call for our support in their opposition to measures
with which we concur. Some of these Noble Lords are
opposed to the Right Honourable Gentleman, because they
say he will carry the question to which they are hostile,
and to which we are friendly—while others maintain, that
we must be stupid or blind if we do not see that it is his
intention to abandon that question entirely. They give us
both sides of the picture—they !hew us the black and the
white—they tell us what they like and what they dislike,
and would have us agree with them in both ; hut I say,
that they as well as we must make our option. Mine is
already made. I think that lam justified in supporting
the Government, because I agree with them in some
things, although there are circumstances which I could
wish to he otherwise.—(Loud cheers from both sides of the
House.)—l will give the Noble Lords opposite all the ad-
vantage which they think they ran obtain from this declar- '
ation. I speak openly, and I say again, that there are cir-
cumstances in the present Administration which I could 1
wish to be otherwise. I think this will generally be found
to be the case in human affairs. I think we shall seldom '
witness an instance in which, *hen a number of men are
united together, there may not be some among them who
will not see things they could wish to be altered. The 1
obedience of men to the interests of party, for the support '
of principles which they hold just and necessary, is seldom '
known to he founded upon an entire concurrence with every
petty measure which their party may find it nece9- 1
sary to propose. It is sufficient if in the majority
of the great objects of their union their opinions con-
cur. In the present instance I give my support to 1
rime Administration, because I believe that by so doing, '
I am assisting the cause of civil and religious liberty,
more than I could do by joining in the Opposition.
The Noble Lord who has, till recently, maintained his I
seat upon the woolsack, made a declaration a short
time since, the sincerity of which I acknowledge, although '
J believe that he came to a mistaken conclusion, since I
cannot but think that throughout his life he has been op-
posed to the real liberty of the country. I have, there-
are, always been hostile to him in his political capacity;
but I have received so much courtesy from him, that I en-
tertain, if he will permit me to say so, a great regard for
him personally. From our political differences, therefore,
it is not to be wondered at that I should be surprised when
I heard him make the declaration 1 have alluded to,
and. when I heard him state that his reason for resign-
ing was for the sake of religious and political liberty.
I could not but be surprised at such a declaration, be-
cause I saw that he imagined he forwarded the inte-
rests of religious liberty, by refusing one-third of the peo-
ple of this country admission to civil rights on account of
their religious opinions, and because I recollected that
during the thirty years in which I have been in Parliament
aNre has not been one measure for the abridgement of
civil liberty, which he, and those now connected with him
have no,, uniformly supported—(Hear.)—l have changed
my seat, for the purpose of resisting and contending against
those measures a7hich these Noble Lords have so long sup-
ported, and in dohie
s so 1 do not think that I am liable to
the least charge of poin;:cal inconsistency.—[His Lordship
from all parts of the
resumed his seat amidst c:Leering
House.].
The Earl of WINCHELSEA sal 4- he was not pledged
to support any particular set of measures, and he should
therefore give his independent support to any which seemed
to him deserving of it. What confidence could he have in
the measures of the present Administration when he took
a view of past events ? What confidence did the late coali-
tion afford to him? What pledge—what security did they
give for the uprightness and integrity of their conduct ?
It was not merely upon the measure of the Catholic Ques..
Zion that he thought the principles of Lord Liverpool's
Covernment had been departed from, but there were
others which proved to him that he could not give
his support to the Government. The Noble Baron who
had just resumed his seat, had said that this Adminis-
tration was not the same as the last. He thanked the
Noble Baron for the avowal, and he now knew how they
stood. A sacrifice had been made on one side ; and it ap-
peared from that declaration, that it was not made by the
Whig party who had joined the Administration, bat by
the Right Hon. Gentleman to whom they had given
their support. When he considered what that Noble
Baron had stated, he could not but think that the Right
Honourable Gentleman had sacrificed his Tory principles
as a stepping stone to the high situation which he at pre-
sent held. He (Earl Winchelsea) bore that Right Hon.
Gentleman no private_lmstility, but he felt towards
him the strongest degree of political hostility, which he
should never hesitate boldly and openly to avow. That
hostility was founded upon the recollection of events that
he could not erase from his mind. He did not think that
the conduct of that Right Hon. Gentleman towards his
late Noble Colleagues, who stood deservedly so high in the
estimation of the country, was marked with that openness
and candour which ought to be expected ; and his (the
Earl of Winchelsea's) feelings upon that subject were so
5-trong, that if every one of the Administration were Gen-
tlem:ita possessing Tull' principles, and that Right Hon.
Gentler:24n was at their head, he should stand where he
now did. It was not, therefore, on the Catholic Question
alone that he should oppose the Administration; but it was
because he had not witnessed that uprightness, integrity,
and consistency, which could aloue entitle it to the confi-
dence of the country. However, on that question he had
a strong opinion ; and when it was considered that it was
now almost openly avowed, that those who possessed the
power of the Government would exereiae that power, if not
openly, at least clandestinely, for the success of that ques-
tion, which, he bad no hesitation in saying, was against
the sense of the British Nation, he thought himself justified
in exercising the most direct opposition to the Government.
If that question was to be carried, in God's name let it be
done openly and fairly. Let the people of this country be
told that their political and civil liberty depended upon
their granting these concessions to the Catholics. Let
that declaration he made openly, and he would to the last
hour, raise his voice against it. He thought the present
Administration was one which every individual who had
supported the last, and who wished to preserve his political
character, should oppose; and of this be was certain, that
at least it had not the support of'the nation.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH observed, that the Noble
Baron who had spoken from the opposite side of the House
bad exhibited some soreness—which be must designate as
an official soreness—at the conduct of those who were now
in the PPl"aiticin' for taking the opportunity of raising
little debates ;Thenever that opportunity was afforded them.
In condemning that 1,711*, the Noble Baron had little re-
4:*
isrd to the useful rights of itie Qprositieu, when be suf-
-4.„.
.1 •

matized as factions those who shewed a disposition tc look
closely into the acts and conduct of Government. He had
always umlerstoed that two things which were equal to the
same were equal to one another ; and he could not, there-
' fore, understand how those Noble Lords who, it now
' seemed, had agreed with the measures of the late Govern-
talent, could have been, as they always had been, its oppo-
nents in that House. The Noble Baron had said, that the
present Administration was not upon the principle of Lord
Liverpoel's ; other Noble Lords were inclined to support
it because it was ; while a third class had avowed that
they did not know what those principles were. Now,
there being so many differences upon this subject, he wished
the Noble Viscount opposite would state what, were the
principles of the present Government; and further, that he
would give an answer to that question which had been put
to him, and would say, whether there was any engagement
on the part of Government, binding them not to use that
influence, which, as a Government they possessed, to carry
the Catholic Question.—(Hear, hear, hear.).—What secu-
rity had Noble Lords, who had now joined the Administra-
tion, taken to carry into effect the principles they had long
advocated ? Was the Mint a security—were the Woods and
Forests a security? Did their Lordships see any of those
Noble Lords occupying situations which gave them a
guarantee that their favourite principles would be carried
into effect ? Did they look to the conduct of the Right Hon.
Gentleman for that security? If they did, in what situa-
tion did they stand ? Was it not known to their Lordships,
that but a few short weeks had elapsed since that Right
Hon. Gentleman had proposed to his Majesty—and hold-
ing the opinions that he did, it was impossible to say how
he reconciled that proposition with his oath as a Privy
Councillor—the formation of a Government entirely hostile
to the granting the Catholic Claims ? Was not that Go-
vernment to be founded upon the principles of Lord Liver-
pool's Administration ; and did not that Right Hon. Gen-
theman himself express the greatest anxiety to retain in the
service of his Majesty those who were well known to he
hostile to those claims ? Did that look like a sincere desire
to forward the interests of the Catholics ? It was impos-
sible to say, therefore, to what part of the Right Hon.
Gentleman's conduct those Noble Lords looked for security ;
,but it was evident that, look where they might, in no part
could they find it. No one could doubt that, in going over
to the other side of the House, the noble Baron had some
great object in view ; and great indeed it ought to have
been, for much had he sacrificed to attain it. The Whigs,
as a party were annihilated. Their very name was gone ;
that name with which all his fame, and that of his Noble
Friend, was connected ; that name which had distinguished
his public character, and the public character of his an-
cestors, was annihilated. The Whigs, as a party, might
have had their errors ; but their party was looked to as one
in the possession of many honours, and of much influence. It
was now extinct, and its extinction had been accomplished by
a prostration of personal dignity,ofwhichtlierewas no example
in the former history of the country. That circumstance was
much to he regretted. The dignity of public men was part
of the strength of the people—that dignity the Whigs had
once possessed, but now they had sacrificed it, and with it
their public usefulness. They had sacrificed it, too, with-
out receiving one pledge that any one measure they advocated
should be carried into effect. He would not look back
merely for three weeks, but for three years, and then he
should see the commencement of that system of adulation
which had disgusted the public mind ; of that system
which had placed one Minister in contrast with his Co--
leagues, and which had made his conduct and opinions the
subject of particular praise, though it was well known that
there was no measure of the Government with which all
the Administration were not equally identified. A Noble
Earl behind him (Earl Grey) had recently, in a speech of
the utmost eloquence, and of eloquence of the hest kind,
because it was the eloquence of consistency and candour,
struck all the grounds from beneath—they were all gone,
or if a part of one remained, it was only the half of the
ground of religious liberty. The country now knew how
to estimate those who had taken place under such cis cum-
stances, some of which seemed to him to be very suspici-
ous. It was known that it had been intimated, in a certain
quarter, that there were several persons, not great in
number, but weighty by their tact and influence, who
would support the Right Honourable Gentleman if he
were placed at the head of the Government. On this
circumstance he (Lord Ellenborough) had some observa-
tions to make. In the first place, that communication
should have been public. It should have been made in
Parliament, and ought not to have been concealed from
those who could haNe assisted his Majesty with their
Council. In the next place, lie (Lord Ellenborough) ob-
jected, upon principle, that the leaders of a responsible
party should go over to an Administration, and not hold
responsible offices. He trusted that the bad example which
bad been set in this, would not be followed; and he
trusted also that on no future occasion should a gentleman,
entrusted with the leading of the Government in one
House, he seen acting in concert with those who had ge-
nerally been opposed to that Government, and thus ousting
his former colleagues. He acknowledged that these things
might, prima facia, appear to be worse than they were ;
but they were bad enough, and lie should take every op-
portunity of holding up to public indignation such conduct.
His Noble Friend, who had gone over to the other side
of the House, seemed to think, that if he had not gone
over the present Administration could not have been sup-
ported. Perhaps in one respect he was right ; but be
(Lord Ellenborough) was convinced that if that Noble
Baron had not gone over, an Administration would have
been formed, much more consonant to his wishes than the
present. The Noble Lords who had gone over reminded
him of the well-known lines of the Poet

. " Stabant orantes primi transmittere cursum,
Tendebantque menus ripe ulterioris amore."
That being the case, the Noble Baron had no power on
the subject. The Noble Baron would do him the justice
to acknowledge, that he had not acted in that manner. He
had told that Noble Baron some time since, that he felt
every disposition to support that Noble Baron's Adminis-
tration, but that he could not bring his mind to support
that of Mr. Canning. The opinion as expressed he had
deliberately formed ; and if he had not formed it at that
time, the circumstances connected with the creation of the
present Administration would have given rise to it. The
Noble Baron thought lie had acted the best for the attain-
ment of the Catholic Question, in pursuing the course lie
had adopted. He (Lord Ellenborough) admitted the sin-
cerity of that opinion, while he was disposed to doubt its
accuracy. He did not believe that the Government would
do anything for the Catholi.,72. ; or it, as a Government,
they do any thing, they would be deceiving all parties,
so that by their present conduct they afforded a good rea-
son to both Protestants and Catholics to oppose them. He
was no Member of a factious Opposition. He spoke in
that House merely as an individual ; but when he saw that
no part of the Government went on without an abandon-
ment of principle—be cared not on what side that aban-
donment was—be thought there could be no better ground
for mistrusting. He should offer them a constant opposi-
tion—not a factious, but an unceasing and vigilant observ-
ance of every measure of the Government. It was stated
that the Cabinet were not to interfere upon a particular
question. What was the result of that statement, but to ex?
cite improper hopes and fears, which might produce in
Ireland a situation of things of the most terrible and
afflicting kind ? No man was more desirous than him-
self that that question should be finally set at rest, but at
present he despaired of it. Wherever lie turned he met
it, till it became a burthen too intolerable to be borne. It
he went into the Cabinet of the King he met it there. If
he went into the ChUrch he met it there. It deprived his
Majesty and the country of the most efficient men for the
public service; but not satisfied with its public mischief, it
invaded the sanctity of private life. It divides father from
son, and created dissension where all ought to be harmony.
In England it was a grievance, but in Ireland it was a
11 malediction. With that feeling lie could not but desire its
final adjustment. If events were left to their natural
course, they would produce all he wished. He did not
like the Government to pursue such a line of conduct as
would make them appear to give promises they might not
keep, exciting hopes and fears, and justifying neither, by
which they would create incalculable mischief to Ireland,
Since they would create despair by pursuing so deceptive a
course. _ _

Lord HOLLAND explained, denying that be had called
the Opposition factious, and—
Lord ELLENBOROUGH repeated his questions, re-
garding the communications that had passed between Mr.
Canning and the Whigs.
Lord Viscount GODERICH observed, that the Noble
Baron who bad just sat down had frankly stated his inten-
tion of taking every opportunity convenient or inconve-
nient, of manifesting to their Lordships and the country
his determination to carry on that which he had, in the
early part of the Session, described as an uncompromising
hostility to the present Government. He had plainly
avowed, that his object was, by those separate, inconve-
nient, and unsatisfactory discussions, to produce an impres-
sion on the public mind. Such might be his object ; but,
in effecting it, they who were thus put upon their trial had
the most unjust imputations cast upon them, and were re-
viled as me❑ almost incapable of honourable and proper
feelings, and as only influenced by the paltry abomination
of gain. He complained of this course as most unjust ;
and he declared that if fair dealing was intended, it would
no longer be pursued. If they were to be told that they
did not deserve the confidence of the country, for God's
sake let a motion be brought befoie the House for that pur-
pose ; be sought for nothing else, He declared that it was

I impossible for those who were engaged in the service of
his Majesty to do justice to the duties they had undertaken,
if they were to be attacked in this way. When those im-
putations were thrown upon them they were expected to
treat them with indifference. For himself, he must de-
clare, that he should meet the decision of such a question,
when it came—if ever it did come—with that calm and
fearlessness which he had hitherto shewn upon political
questions ; and if the results should prove different from
his anticipations, he should still feel the greatest indiffer-
ence.—(Hear, hear, hear.) But lie was not indifferent to
the language with which he and his friends had been fan•
some time assailed. It was impossible to remain altogether
insensible to the violence of that language.—(Hear, hear.)
Did the Noble Lord imagine that Ministers were ice or
stones ?—(Cheers.) True it was, that they had hitherto
thought it necessary to their honour and character to re-
press the feelings which the language to which their Lord-
ships had recently listened, was calculated to excite in their
breasts.—(Hear, hear, hear.) It had hitherto been the
duty of the side of the House at which he sat to repress
those feelings, but he trusted that in future such a distress-
ing necessity would cease to exist, as he expected, that in
candour, a question and a vote to determine what the real
sentiments of the House were, would be introduced. He
did not quarrel with the Noble Lord for doing all that it
might be in his power to do, to hurl Ministers from their
present seats. If it was the opinion of Noble Lords in
that House, and of Hon. Gentlemen elsewhere, that he,
and those with whom he had the honour of acting,
had forfeited the confidence of Pediment and of the
Country, in the name of God, let their Lordships de-
finitively pronounce an opinion to the effect, and let the
present Ministry be sent about their business.—(Hear,
hear.) But if, on the other hand, we have not deserved
to be thus stigmatised, let there be an end to that petty and
harassing warfare. All that he or his friends could say
was, that they were anxious to meet the question fairly, if
any Noble Lord would have the goodness to bring it fairly
forward. But he must, once for all, protest, in the most
decided manner, against being thus baited, night after
night, with questions so artfully contrived, as that silence,
upon the part of himself and his Colleagues, could be tor-
tured into the most unjust and injurious constructions.
The questions which the Noble Lord had, that night,
thought proper to put were not, however, of a nature, even
though unanswered, to justify such conclusions; but he
would, nevertheless, give, without the slightest hesitation,
the most explicit answer to those questions, still maintain-
ing that he might, with perfect safety and propriety, stand
on his right of refusal. The Noble Lord had enquired
whether, in the formation of the present Government, such
as it then was, there had been any stipulation either in
favour of or contrary to the Catholic Claims ? For him-
self„ as well as for his Colleagues, he could assure their
Lordships, that he had never heard of any such stipulation,
either the one way or the other ; and that, as far as he
knew, it only had existence in those vague rumours and
reports to which the Noble Lord had thought proper to
lend the weight of his name and character. If any such
engagement had been proposed to him, he would at once
have rejected it—he would not say with scorn, but in a
manner which must have for ever precluded the renewal of
a proposition of a similar nature.—(Cries of hear, hear,)
He had spent some time in Parliament ; and he must say,
that during his political experience, he had never heard
made, against any Administration, a charge more false and
groundless than that which their Lordships had recently
heard.—(Cries of hear, hear.)—For himself he could only
say, that he appealed to the tenor of his whole life, as the
best refutation of such a calumny.—(Hear, hear.)---While
making this assertion, he was far from accusing Noble
Lords with having alleged that which they knew to be un-
true. He doubted not that their Lordships believed all
they asserted ; but he was sure that their Lordships and
the country would concur in his opinion as to the error
under which these Noble Lords laboured. He professed to
know nothing concerning the proposals of assistance and
conjunction asserted to have been tendered by Noble Lords,
whose usual seat was at the opposite side of the House to
that of the Right Hon. Gentleman who was at the head of
the Government. But even were be better instructed in
this respect, he saw no reason which could induce him to
be communicative.—(Hear, hear.)—He was totally at a
loss to understand how Noble Lords could possibly justify
to themselves a system of hostility, founded upon idle and
groundless rumour.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH observed, that his questions
were grounded on admissions from Noble Lords opposite.
Viscount GODERICH said, that the only admission of
which the Noble Lord could avail himself, was, that the
Right Hon. Gentleman at the head of the Administration
bad done his utmost to form an efficient and powerful Ad-
ministration, without any sacrifice of public principle.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH agreed with the Noble Vis-
eount, but still asserted that that Administration could not
go on.
Viscount GODERICH said that that remained to be
proved, and he most anxiously desired to have the question
solved by a Parliamentary vote. The mode of assault to
which lie was now directing a repulse, was not of that
species which the manliness and candour of the Noble
Lord would have induced him to expect ; lie bad thought
that the Noble Lord would have immediately come into
collision with Ministers, and fairly contest the debateable
ground, instead of skis mishing at the out-posts, and annoy-
ing his opponents, without any definite object. It was con-
trary to the expectation which he had formed of the Noble
Lord's conduct, to be bemired, and baited daily like a male-
factor. The Administration was not tried, and all he de-
sired was fair play. Ministers wished to justify their cha-
racters; they were mutually anxious to rescue themselves
from such a species of harassing persecution as the pre-
sent. He would not touch upon the Catholic question, as
it involved too much discussion. On the present occasion,
he could not, however, refrain from testifying his advocacy
of that measure—(Hear, hear.)—as sincerely as any of his
present or former colleagues. But that attachment had
its bounds, and would not carry the question by main force,
neither would the Noble Lord himself, under the circum-
stances. The concluding part of the Noble Lord's speech con-
tained a most extraordinary charge. It implied that there
should be an equality on both sides on the Catholic ques-
tion. He would ask the Noble Lord, if that was not the state
of the recent Cabinet, at the head of which Lord Liverpool
sat for fifteen years? And yet that Cabinet did not
receive the Noble Lord's support. He had often wished
its dissolution, and now proposed it as a model. He (Lord
Goderich) did not adopt the principle of necessary equality
upon the Catholic Question ; and he felt that, as the Ca-
binet was formed with respect to it, he was left open to
take office under the Right Hon. Gentleman. The com-
ponent parts of Lord Liverpool's Government still remain-
ed, and let the test be its acts. The remaining Members
of that Cabinet had given their counsels to the King for
more than fifteen years ; and had, through good and
through evil repute, borne the country through all itsgreatest
and most alarming perils. Could anysacrifice of principle be
alleged against the Merabers of the present Government?
The political Members of it repelled any such insinuation.
Their principles were unchanged, and all he asked of their
Lordships was to suspend their censure until proofs were
adduced to justify it.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH explained, and said that
his questions were founded upon admissions by the Noble
Lord.

The Marquis of SALISBURY made some observations,
which were rendered inaudible by the noise in the body of
the House.

The Marquis of LANSDOWN was anxious to give to
their Lordships every explanation which his political con-
duct appeared to require, when a fair and fitting opportu-
nity was offered, but he declared that no oonsideration—
however anxiously he might feel upon the subject—could
induce him to he accessary to these irregular, unfair, and
lie would add ungenerous discussions.—(Hear.)—He
should take care that, as tar as it was in his power to pre-
vent it, Noble Lords should not pursue discussions of this
nature in such an irregular way. But while he said this,
he wished it to be understood that he was anxious for an
opportunity of explaining, item by item, every charge,
founded or unfounded, which had been made against him,
whether taken from the actual circumstances of the case,
or collected from the idle rumours of the day.—(Hear.)
—He assured their Lordships that he looked with the
most unmixed confidence to a removal (when a fair op-
portunity offered) of every shadow of blame or prejudice
' with which his conduct had been assailed. He trusted,
also, to prove to their Lordships, that the present Govern-
ment had been brought together under feelings as honour-
able as those which influenced the formation of any Ministry
mentioned in any period of our history. He repeated, that
the admission given by the Noble Lord and Noble Earl
opposite was false. When he said this, lie did not, of
course, mean to assert that the Noble Lords were guilty
of a wilful misrepresentation. He merely requested, as
an act of justice, that the House would not condemn him
or his friends unheard. When an opportunity occurred
to exculaate themselves from such a charge as one
which had been adduced against them, it would be
most gladly taken advantage of. In the mean time, it would
not be too much to hope that the House would not be car-
ried away by the torrent of eloquence or invective in which
the Noble Lord was pleased to indulge without any foun-
dation. He might also hope, that their Lordships would
not be disinclined to credit the assertion of his readiness,
' on the first occasion, to vindicate himself and his Noble
Friends from the charge which had been so studiously and
so undeservedly cast upon them. If, however, only the
tithe of what was alleged against them were to be believed

before the juncture of redress, it would he a gross injus-
tice. The Noble Lord, who had launched into such a
strain of phillippic, might have acted more prudently, if
he had deliberated more maturely, and considered what
the nature and composition was of the Government he at-
tacked, and the merit of the Opposition with which he
leagued himself, before he ventured to vent such virulent
censures as those by which he had committed himself so
extensively. He (Lord Lansdown) would not trouble their
Lordships with any more words on this subject, which was
on the present occasion irrelevant. He would wait until
a fair opportunity presented itself for their Lordships to
form an accurate opinion on the Government, and the op-
position which had elevated itself against it.
Their Lordships then adjourned.