The Sun.
London, England, 1845-07-31 00:00:00

ation which, besides giving us this surplus, enables us to take
precautions for the security of the country, and to remit that
part of our taxation which has appeared to us to press
most upon the labour and industry of the community.
Having a surplus, we feel that we cannot apply it better than
by taking precautions against eventual and possible danger;
and the increase of the votes for the Navy and Ordnance and
the vote proposed with respect to the harbours of refuge show
that, while we attend to the claims of the people to the remis-
sion of taxation, we have not neglected the precautions which
we think necessary for the safety of the country. With respect
to the harbours of refuge, this is the first year that any proposal
has been made. The vote is purposely small, and I hope we
shall not be driven forward too fast. Nothing can be more
important than that we should take the best opinions as to the
proper mode of securing the object. I take it for granted that
the House is satisfied of the necessity which exists for those
harbours of refuge which repeated naval commissions havere-
commended. The subject has undergone such fullinvestiga-
tion that there can be no necessity for any further inquiry.
Dover, Portland, and Harwich are the sites which, as the re-
sult of repeated inquiries, are pointed out as the most appro-
priate for harbours of refuge. We have felt it our duty with
respect to each of those places to take the opinions of the
most eminent civil and military engineers as to the best
mode of insuring to the country the greatest permanent advan-
tage as the result of the money expended. With respect to
all these places, and especially Dover, it is of the utmost im-
portance that we should have the opportunity of profiting as
far as possible by the opinions of those who are best qualified to
give advice on the subject. These various matters are occupy-
ing the serious attention of the Government, arid if my answer
to the Noble Lord be not entirely satisfactory, I entreat the
House to bear in mind that I stand in a position in which I
must appeal to their confidence, because I cannot state the par-
ticular facts upon which my own impression, as opposed to that
of the Noble Lord, is founded.—( Cheers.)
Lord PALMERSTON said that he had not stated that
the naval and military resources of the country were in a less
efficient condition than at any former period. All he con-
tended for, and he
.did it on three or four grounds, was, that
such had been the improvement in steam navigation, that troops
might be transported from one part of the empire to another
with the utmost facility, and the economy of the military
department of the country was so much improved from what
it had been in times past. He had no intention of impeach-
ing the energ7 which the Government had shown in moments
of danger, but he wished to prove that the previous organisa-
tion was defective, and that it ought, therefore, to be amended.
After a few words from Sir ROBERT PEEL,
Sir C. NAPIER said that they had at present at sea eight
sail of the line ; but they, in point of seamen, were two rates
below their proper weight.—( Hear, hear.) It was only
the other day that the Gallant Admiral opposite found it ne-
cessary to increase the number of men in those ships, and lie
could not have adopted a wiser measure. The Secre-
tary at War had stated, the other night, that no difficulty
was met with in finding persons willing to enlist into the army or
into the Ordnance, but he could assure the House that the
greatest difficulty was found in inducing sailors to enter the
navy. The Right lion. Bare net had also spoken of the state of
their steam naval force. He could tell the Right Honourable
Baronet that in this respect they were inferior to their
neighbours on the Continent, who built their steam-vessels for
an increased number of men and weight of metal, while they
(the British) consulted only the rate of speed in their
naval architecture.—( Hear, hear.) He (Sir Charles
Napier) was glad to hear that there were 50,( 00 efficient
pensioners—men able to bear arms in the country. He was glad
to hear this, because they, with a little training, and the
30,000, the standing army in England and Ireland, constituted
a sufficient defence against foreign invasion.—( Hear, hear.)
The statement of the Noble Lord had taken a great weight off
his mind.—(Laughter. )
MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
Messengers from the Lords brought up several Bills.
SUPPLY.
The House then went into a Committee of Supply.
On the motion that 80,300/. be voted to defray the superan-
nuation of persons formerly employed in the civil departments
of the Government, .

Mr. HUME advocated the improvement of the natural har-
bours of the country, that they might offer a better defence than
hitherto in the time of war, although he was a man
of peace and not of war, one hundred and fifty thousand
ships annually entered and left our ports—a number perfectly
astonishing when the smallness of the island was taken into
account—for which there was no proper protection in the na-
tural harbours of the country. He hoped that the Government
would assist nature, and devote a sum of money to what he had
suggested.
Sir R. PEEL thanked the Hon. Gentleman for calling their
attention to the subject. The report of the Tidal Commission,
and his suggestions, should receive due attention from the
Government.
Mr. P. HOWARD wished to say a few words on the subject,
as he had attended a deputation front the Isle of Man, which
had waited on the Right Honourable Baronet with
respect to improving the unprotected harbours of that island.
The authorities of that island were ready to devote a portion of
their revenues, to this object if they were supported in their
efforts by the Government. Independently of the advantages
which the construction of harbours of refuge would confer on

the shipping in that part of the empire, they would be im-
portant elements of national defence in the event of war.
Mr. WILLIAMS said the persons who received the vote had
in many instances rendered an important service to the country.
They had received large salaries, which enabled them to save
money, by which they might support themselves when unfitted
for active service. Their support fell heavily upon the country.
The vote was then agreed to.
A vote of 1,8501. was proposed for defraying the expenses
of the national vaccine institutions. It was agreed to.
5,000/. was proposed for the Refuge for the Destitute.
In consequence of a suggestion made by Mr. HUME,
Sir J. GRAHAM proposed that it should be reduced to
the usual annual amount voted, namely, 3,000/. for the same
purpose.
'the vote of 3,000/. was then agreed to.
The next vote was one of 11,800/. for the Polish refugees
resident in this country.
Mr. BORTHWICK did not w15t,'...0 increase the number of
refugees, but thought some additional grant our;., .n be made.
If the Right Hon. Baronet could by any remonstrance w;;l's
the French Government prevent the transmissien of refugees
from that country to this, he thought it would be highly
desirable. It was certainly a very heavy tax on
English benevolence, and money was expended on foreigners
to which cur own poor had a prior claim, but there was no
alternative for these poor foreigners but starvation, if Parlia-
ment did not interpose.
Sir R. PEEL must decline making any remonstrance with
the French Government on the subject, and he thought there
was some compensation for the expenditure in the reasons as-
signed for the refugees coming to this country. England
was the only country in the neighbourhood of
France to which refugees would be admitted after
being expelled from France, and the refugees themselves
preferred England to any other country, as being able
to enjoy the greatest toleration and liberty there."—(Cheers.)
However, France was at present encumbered with 11,000 of
these refugees—this country had 12,000, so that, in fact, the
number was nearly divided.

Mr. .1. ABEL SMITH said, that, it might not be out of
place in him to remark upon the intelligence—the melancholy
intelligence that had reached this city to-day, of another alarm-
ing fire in Quebec, by which 1,300 houses were burned and
thousands of poor people reduced to destitution and suffering.
He wished to know whether it was in the contemplation of the
Government to alleviate the sufferings of these poor people.
Sir R. PEEL said he had learned, with the utmost regret,
that another calamity had befallen on a previous similar
occasion. The Government then had done all that was
possible for the sufferers, and be felt confident that on this
occasion similar care and sympathy would be evinced. The
people of this country had exerted themselves in the most
creditable manner, and he trusted that a like benevolent
anxiety would be now evinced. He thought, however, that
Parliament should show its sympathy with their suffering
fellow-subjects, and he would propose a vote for that purpose
on a future occasion—the vote would, he thought it right to
say, be not so much for the purpose of raising a sum as to
mark the sense of the House.—( Hear, hear.)
The vote was then agreed to.
A vote of 4,9321. was proposed to pay the pensions of minis-
ters belonging to the dissenting congregations which had been
formerly included in the civil list.
Mr. HINDLEY proposed an amendment, t r the effect that
5,688/. paid to Independent Ministers be withdrawn.
Mr. CARDWELL opposed the amendment and supported
the original vote.
The House then divided, when there appeared_
For the original motion 52
For the amendment
Majority against the amendment 44
A vote of 2,146/. was then proposed, to defray charities,
bounties, and other charges in Scotland.
Mr. WILLIAMS objected to the vote.
The vote was agreed to without a division.
A vote of 1,329. was agreed to for defraying the expenses o
the House of Industry in Dublin.
2,500/. was agreed to for the Western and Lock Hospitals.
1,500/. was voted to defray the expenses of Stephens's
Hospital.
5001. was voted for the expenses of the Hospital of Incurables.
On the vote of 33,264/. being proposed for Non-conforming
and other ministers in Ireland,
Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD, according to notice, op-
posed the vote on account of its smallness, and proposed that no
less than 306,0001. be devoted to these clergymen.
Mr. WILLIAMS did not agree with the liberality of his
Hon. Friend, and opposed the vote on the principle that no
class of clergymen should be paid by the State.
Mr. HINDLEY objected to the vote on the same grounds,
and said that these clergymen could have very little depen-
dence on the effect of their religion on their flocks, when they
looked to the State for provision.
Mr. HUME suggested that after the passing of the vote
no new recipients should be taken on the fund.
Mr. WILLIAMS, said if the Hon. Gentleman would not
press the amendment to a division, that he would do so, as
his constituents objected to the State paying the ministers of
any religion.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the vote
Against it
Majority .. —5B
On the sum of 22,565/. being proposed for the colony'
New Zealand,
Mr. J. A. SMITH asked the Right Honourable Baronet
for an explanation of the present position of the affairs of New
Zealand.
cr
uRs
s.i
oPnEoEf L
thatsai ds
utbh
;etc
tt.h is
iwfatshen oHt
oeutri
ambel
et oGeennttelre
mi into
a dSisi
was desirous to open up the matter afresh, he would have an.
other opportunity for that purpose.
with the matter
Mr. HOPE sat
oi d
wt hhai
ct h
thhce
oe sneonutr a voteble Gheandt
enmo
at hni nagl
utdoe
dd. o
Mr. ROEBUCK said that this was the last colony which
should be dependant upon them for support. If a little care
taken in its management, such a vote as the present would
'lrYeer altogether ltogether unnecessary. It would be able to maintain itself.
He would recommend, in New Zealand, what he would call a
political survey by properly appointed persons, and in every
district so surveyed, a power to be granted to every one,
whether white or black, to registerwahsimssoelfp,
awrciethlletdbeouti"inotof
ywould recommend a general
vcootuirnagi
e,
and
wheni
ttoli the u a
tceost: nht
or
representative system. Let not this great question resolve
itself into a petty squabble between the Colonial Government
and the New Zealand Company, but exercise a broad and
comprehensive principle ; and then there would be an end to
those painful discussions which had lately occupied the time
of the House.
Mr. HUME said that the way in which our colonists had
been treated all over the world required that Parliament
should pass en Act declaring what rights should be enjoyed by
the settlrrs in our colonies. He recollected the high hopes
that were excited, a few years ago, when that colony was first
settled, and he was much grieved since to find the evils
which had clouded them, and disappointed so many. All
the mischief, all the petty quarrelling and division
in the colony had arisen from the meddling of the Home-office.
Ile thought that no good could take place until the rights of
the colonists were properly defined, and a settled form of go-
vernment conceded. Tb e United States of America managed
their colonies in a different way. When they colonised a tract
of country, they had it surveyed end snapped oat, and the set-
tlers hail a valid title given to thorn to the tracts of land allotted.
Had this been done in New Zealand, a great deal of the evils
which had overtaken that colony would have been avoided. lie
iraylored the Right Hon. Baronet to interfere and ?make a pro-
' per aettlanent of tha (I:withal, 4s u CU tiwtocl flit ;41 tie