The Sun.
London, England, 1827-03-10 00:00:00

LIST OF

WHO VOTED FOR MR. Wi]

THE IMPOIV
Abercromby, Hon. J.
Beaumont, T. W.
Batty, Harrison
Bernal, R.
Birch, S.
Birch, J.
Bright, H.
Calvert, C.
Cradock, Col.
Crompton, S.
Davies, Col.
Fergusson, Sir R.
Folkstonc, Lord
Fortescue, Hon. O.
Graham, Sir J.
Guest, J. J.
Hobhouse, J. C.
Howick, Lord

SPIRIT OF THE PUBLIC JOURNALS.

There are general rumours in abundance of the jealousies mad
intrigues of the Ministers (the limbs of the body of which the
head has been struck), for the chief office; and external ap-
pearances prove internal discord on all sides. The Lord Chan-
cellor affects to disbelieve the words and acts imputed to the
members of the Irish convention ; because, says his Lordship,
had such things been said or done, it is impossible that they
should not have been laid before a jury by the law officers of the
Crown : "it was impossible, if such things had passed, and evi-
dence could be given of them, that the parties should not be ap-
prehended, who had behaved as described in the newspapers."—
Lord Clancarty asserts the facts to be as stated, and much worse
than even the papers reported. The imputation, therefore, of
the Chancellor on the law-officers attaches.—The proceedings out
of the Ministerial circle, if they do not confirm the truth of the
rumours of the Ministerial discord, at least evince that they are
credited. A meeting of the English Catholics of distinction has
taken place, at Norfolk House, to deliberate on what was proper
to be done, in consequence of the rejection of Sir Francis Bur-
dett's ,motion ; at which meeting it was determined that no steps
should be taken till a Ministry was formed.— Times. .

Aristocracy, which in England is corrected by the controul of
an intelligent middle class, appears in Ireland in all its natural
hideousness. Seldom does an Irish Peer or Commoner open his
month even in this country, where we would think the milder
character of those who surround him might have some influence
on him, without betraying in every word he utters a selfishness,
an utter indifference to every thing but himself and his grossest
natural interests, of which a Polish Lord in these days would be
ashamed. To him the people of Ireland are nothing, and the
country is merely of importance as it enables him to draw rents,
and his son or brother to draw tithes. It never occurs to him
that. the social state involves mutual obligations ; that it does not
give the land and the people exclusively to a certain cute, with-
out throwing on that caste certain obligations in return. One of
these obligations assuredly is the treating in a humane manner the
people to whom the owners of the soil are indebted for the advan-
tages they derive from their labour. The other night we bad a cha-
racteristic epanchenic;t du cceur from one of these worthies, wile
stated in a broad unqualified manner that the Irish Freeholders
were Trustees for their landlords, and bound to vote as their land-
lords told them, leaving conscience, opinion, and all that, as com-
pletely out of the question as if man were on a level with the bratse
that perish. Last night we had another exemplification of it in a
discussion on the subject of the Poor Laws. Mr. Monk bad
very truly stated, that " it appeared that in that unhappy coun-
try, Ireland, the laws which related to the rich were executed with
all attention and severity, while those relating to the poor were
wholly neglected. In his opinion, there ought to be some power
given to exact from the Irish gentry and absentee landlords, a pro-
vision for their poor countrymen Those who,
like the Irish landlords, received all the benefit without giving any
equivalent, ought to be compelled to contribute something
more than they did to the support of the sick and indi-
gent agricultural labourers." Mr. Monck was followed by
Sir John Newport, an honest and patriotic Member, if ever
there was one in the House, and to whom the character aborts
given is certainly not meant to apply, who admitted " that the
question was of considerable importance, and he should be glad to
have it ascertained whether or not the system of English Poor
Laws might not be beneficially applied to some parte of Ireland,
where means were afforded of having the provisions faithfully exe-
cuted." The Right Hon. Baronet, however, stated, that in a
great part of the country, there were not to be found individual*
to whom the administration of the Poor Laws could be with
safety confided. He observed, that " he had no disposition to
speak ill of his countrymen, but he felt that the majority of its
poor had a propensity beyond the people of almost any other coun-
try, to live without labour. A system of provision like the Eng-
lish Poor Laws would have the effect of encouraging that propen-
sity to a great extent ; for if it was once held out to them that they
could live under any circumstances without labour, be was
convinced that no labour would be done." With respect to
the propensity to live without labour, we fear it is natural to
all mankind, and that there is no nation one whit different from
another in that respect. The difference between nations
is purely artificial ; and if Ireland remains in a state of na-
ture without the habits of industry which have become a second
natui e in .some other countries, this must be attributed to the
defects of her social organization. No doubt, with this propen-
sity so little corrected, Poor Laws would hold out a temptation to
idleness ; but then the evil would work its own cure. It would
force the Gentry, in self-dence, to set about the correction of the
evil ; and, if they neglected to attend to their interests, it would
by taking their estates from them, give them to persons who
would be able to attend to their interests. Mr. Dawson observ-
ed, that " so great was the anxiety of an Irishman to become
possessed of a hit of ground, that he would take any quantity at
the most extravagant rate of rent, without considering for an in-
stant whether he hid to pay taxes, tithes, or even rent," &c. Is
it wonderful that a man, to whom a piece of land is necessary
as the only means of his existence, should offer any thing for it,
rather than be without? Without land he cannot exist; and the
necessity for immediate support is of course what he most feels.
It is absurd to suppose that a man would thing of being
deterred by the consideration of what he has to pay, after
the lapse of a year, when he has not wherewithal to pay for the
day that is passing over his head. But impose an obligation on
the landholders to support their poor, and they will he forced to
he more cautious as to the people they allow to be on their,
grounds. They will see the necessity of ascertaining, not merely..
what the tenant is willing to give for land, but what he is Oleo
to pay. Men of property are not improvident speculatorto. but.
a man without property can never offer too much for aoe tjaing..
We contend that necessity, and necessity alone, press rig on Olt
Irish landholders, will force on that amelioration in the haliitn, or
the Irish peasantry, without which England will be reaseed to
the level of Ireland. It is useless to talk of exporting people
from this country or Ireland to Canada, if some powerful,
cause is not created to counteract the disposition on the part
of the landholders to allow the people to retain all their
present bad habits. The Poor Laws of England certainly
forced the landholders to look about them. If we look at
the description given of us in the time of Henry the Eighth,
by Erasmus and other foreigners, we were then one of
the dirtiest nations of Europe. In Queen Elisabeth's
time, according to Harrison, we were still far behind, in the,
comforts of civilization, most of the Continental nations. Tax,
are the People of Ireland alone to remain, century after ceoooky,
and generation after generation, iu the same savage condition
which the Milesians were when they first set foot on the. Wood of
Saints. Ireland is over-run with beggars, who really levy more
than would be paid under a system of Poor Lawst only the money
is levied from the wrong individuals. But civilization and men-
dicancy are incompatible with each other, In the instructive
work of the Baron de Keverberg on the indigence of East Flan-,
tiers, which had attained a most fearful height, he informs me
that it was found necessary to have recourse to assessments, and
that the change was attended with the most beneficial results.
The tax which you consider as unjust," he says, " is not
so in reality. Its direct object is the maintenance and
consolidation of public order. It is to remove from your
hearths the mendicity which importunes you, which make+,
You uneasy, which carries into the bosom of your families the best
founded alarms, as it is the hot-bed of the vices which lead to
crimes, that the produce of the tax is consecrated. The means
are at once the most economical, and the only efficacious once
which we can employ. The most economical; for the mass of
the wants being well calculated, and the distribution in aid being.<

in proportion to the wants of each, it results that nothing is granted
to superfluity, and nothing is lost. In the visit which we made
in ISIS, the generality of the Local Authorities assured us, that
the amount of the tax remained far below the alms which fear
and disgust had previously exacted from the citizens. In most
of the communes the difference was valued at the double, and
some even the quadruple."—Morning Chronicle.
Various rumours and suggestions have been afloat, since the de-
bate on the Catholic question, as to the probable retirement of Mr.
Canning and his friends from the Government. If it be true, as
we have seen it stated, that he experienced any unfair play upon
that occasion—such as Treasury Circulars being issued upon
a question avowedly not a Ministerial one—we cannot wonder
at the personal warmth which Mr. Canning exhibited in the
debate ; nor should we be surprised at his refusing to re-
main a Member of an Administration in which se evident
and disheartening a collision exists. The real importance of
the question itself has always been, in our estimation at least,
much over-rated, both by its advocates and opponents ;
and its actual consequences are much more serious, and to
be deprecated in the schism and disunion it creates, than any real
advantages or mischiefs that would flow from its adoption on the
one hand, or its rejection on the other. Though we have had
the misfortune to dissesit from one important feature of Mr. Can-
ning's foreign policy, we are ■ot on that account the less sensible
of his talents, or of the importance of the influence of his per-
sonal weight and character to the Councils of the country ; but
we are free to confess that it has all along surprised us that
Mr. Canning, or any other man of high feeling, should
have even joined an Administration who were at variance
upon a point of so much supposed vital importance as
the Catholic Question ; we say of supposed importance,
because its importance is, we repeat, on all hands vastly overrated.
It is essential to their own honour, we should think, as well as to
the true interests of the country, that those who compose the
Government should be united upon the main points both of their
foreign and domestic policy. To be met at every turn by differ-
ences among themselves, must embarrass their deliberations and
cripple their exertions in a way most injurious to the public ser-
vice; while it leaves the country itself at a less how or where to
repose that confidence which is so essential to a Government
over which public opinion holds so marked and extensive an
influence. The difference we allude to is, however, much too
great and sincere on both sides to admit, we fear, of any re-
conciliation ; and however we may, in the abstract, wish to see
all religious distinctions put an end to, it is impossible to expect
to see what is called the Catholic Question ever carried by the wil-
ling consent of the Protestant community, either of this country
or of Ireland, while the Catholic agitators themselves exert every
nerve, as they have unfortunately long done, to keep alive all
those feelings, alarms, and objects of excitement which are most
calculated to prevent it. We wonder that such men as Mr. Can-
ning, Sir Francis Burdett, and Mr. Plunkett, have not long since
told the Catholic leaders in plain terms, " Either you must serve
yourselves, by adopting a different course to that which you are
now pursuing, or we cannot serve you. It is in vain that we,
year after year, labour for your cause, while you are labouring as
zealously against it." If, therefore, Mr. Canning's continuance
in the Government depends upon his carrying this question at
' present, we believe the thing to be impossible. And the only
middle course we can imagine is, that the question itself should
be abandoned till those in whom it originates have the honesty or
the discretion to adopt a line of conduct no longer calculated to
defeat their own object, and ueutralise the efforts of their best
friends —Morning Herald.