Star.
London, England, 1808-01-22 00:00:00

r ••• - , . •
'et He end • t mean. tal '.. 6essii, . . .
id A great deal had been sat • no . . say that Minlitete . t 4tst .be
the SCOT •
expedition to Copenhagen ; and it was.able to Make out a good cam, and• a. ntir*ieat justi.
.
tint Ministers were to receive full credit fixation of. their conduct; but, until they did, he
led from absolute necessity,. and accor- was not pipared to give his . approbation. Should
strict rules of justice. Ministers had, Ministers not lay any documents before the House
yet laid before the House those docu- on this subject, he should, on a future day, move
it information, which could alone prove , for papers. or such other information as he should
or justice of the measure ; and it cer- judge necessary,. to bring a.ca-se, which so much in-
irima facie, that it was an unprovo- volved the national honour, fairly before the House.
aggression : nor could he see any proba- • In .the consideration of that question, there were two
ice of hostility on the part of Denmark, points to be aettided. to ; first, the right, and second-
when the expedition was sent. If the ly, the policy ; and although he did not wish at pre-
iyal had entertained at that time any idea sent to give any opinion against Ministers, yet he
- with England, could it be supposed that . could.not pledge himself to approve of their conduct.
Ave left Copenhagen unprotected and ex- The next point in this. Speech which he must observe.
removed the Danish army to Holstein ? upon was, the. new relation itt which the country
certainly have been more suitable to the dig- stands with respect to the Courts, of Vienna and Ber-
character of the Crown Prince to have re- lin. This was a subject,. however, upon which Mi.
earn with his army, if he had been nisters did promise to lay the documents before the
ty thing which could have called down ' House. It was, indeed, somewhat unexpected and
the hostility of England. We have learnt ' surprising, that our relations with the Court of Vi-
\ustrian and Russian Ministers have left enna should be so suddenly and completely changed ;
and nevertheless we still have been told : but when the long and 6rm attachment of that Cabi-
;of this country, and its progressive , net to this country was considered, he thought that
improvement. He would not pretend to give 1 ' if the fallen state of Austria should have compelled
- on any of the points of his Majesty's i her to this change of conduct, we should, in remem-
; documents were before the House, by i brance of her former friendship, use to her the lan-
statements were to be borne out. The guage of forbearance, and adopt a conciliatcry tone
- which had induced him to rise was, and temper. Towards France, our old enemy, we
A express and publicly record the soy- may use as high a tone as we think proper • and even
appointment he felt at hearing nothing imitating the irritating expressions she used towards
which had been read, that indicated a this country, if we should think it right to do so ;
for the restoration of peace as soon as it but to Austria, the oldest and firmest of our friends,
ticable. we should use a language and a tone as mild, conci-
ISONBY said, that from the variety of liating, and healing, as possible. As to what relates
the speech embraced, it was by no means to Sweden, it might be recollected that it was but a
a decided opinion upon the merits little while ago when the press of this country ap-
was the more difficult, as the usual mode geared to have no other theme but the praise of the
1g the contents of the Speech to the magnanimity, disinterestedness, and noble qualities
day before, had, in the present instance of the Emperor Alexander ; and such was our high
departed from ; and the House, without the regard for the Emperor of Russia, that nothing we
intimation of its contents, were called could do was too much for him. Our opinion is now
'ounce an opinion on a speech which was changed of him, and so might it be of the King of
longest that was ever read from their Sweden. If England has contracted engagements
. therefore required a considerable degree of with Sweden, Parliament would no doubt wish them
pection to pronounce so suddenly an opinion to be performed; but if it was a subsidiary treaty that
vinous points to which it alluded. He cer- was alluded to, there must be a great difference of
I considered that the first object of the Speech opinion as to the policy of it. Considering the weakness
,as, and must be, to convey to the House informa- of Sweden, it was not improbable that in two or three
oat of the situation of the country, as it now stands, months, two or three Gentlemen might start up on the
hits relations to France and the other Powers of the other side of the House, and abuse the King of Swe-
Continent. If he were to speak generally of the state den as much as they now praised him. He thought the
of peace and war, he would say, that peace was be- House must pause, at least, before they gave an un-
yond all question the first interest and the greatest qualified approbation to a subsidiary treaty with
blessing which this country could pursue ; but in so Sweden. With respect to America, it is promised
eying, he could only mean to speak of peace abstrac- that information will be laid before the House. When
tedly ; for until the necessary information should be the House is possesseelocthat information, they would
given to the House by Ministers, it would be impos- doubtless give the stsration that was due to so im-
Ale for him to form an opinion whether it had been portant a question. Having made these observations
possible for the country to obtain a peace compatible on what the Speech did _contain, he must also state,
withitshonour and its interests. He hoped that nothing what it did not contain, and what he should have
be should say would convey the least idea that he re- wished to have seen in it. He should have wished
commendedtothose who acted for this country to shew that it had adverted to the state of Ireland—arid he
too great a facility in their negociations with France, I was convinced that, if we were now to be engaged
or too great an an xiety to accept whatever peace she in a long protracted war, there was no subject more
might be inclined to offer. He hoped that England fit for the serious consideration of the House and the
would never bow her head before France. (Loud crier Country. He did not, however, suppose that the
of ! hear!) He hoped that those who acted for subject was entirely out of the minds.of his Majesty's ,
her, would stand upon the proud ground that the Ministers—and if any thing should be brought for-
spirit and resources of the nation warranted her to ward by them in the course of the Session, he well
take. If they were to act on any other ground, the knew what superior weight it would have to any
country's security, as well as its honour, might be lost thing which could be brought forward by men who
•fiir he was fully convinced, that if England were j are generally in the habit of opposing the measures of
low to stoop her head, she would never be able to ! Ministers. Although he had thought it his duty to
risk again. ( Loud cries of Hear ! hear ! from the make these observations, it was not his intention to
Minterial lunch.) It was impossible for him, how- divide the House .upon the Address, the reason which
ever, to give an opinion whether Ministers had acted principally induced him to make those observations
is they ought, until the case should he regularly be- was, that if he had remained silent, he might be told
'fore the House, and after the production of those do- at a future day, that having once given his unquali-
cuments and information which would be necessary tied approbation to all these measures, he was pre
to decide the question. He hoped that it would ap- eluded from afterwards objecting to them. He
pear, that Ministers had acted rightly, and if so, he therefore wished now to be understood, that he nei-
should be happy to give them his approbation ; but ther meant to express approbation or disapprobation
if it turned out that they had acted otherwise, he on the particular topics of the speech • but that he
should then freely express his opinion of their con- reserved his opinions tillthose subjects should be regu-
dict. For the present, he should abstain from any larly discussed. As to the business of Copenhagen,
1
observations on the conduct of Ministers, as he con- if Ministers should produce no papers, he would
ceived that such observations would be premature ; move for them, or introduce the subject in some
but as the House was called upon to concur in the , other shape, for a regular discussion. If Ministers
sentiments of the speech, he should make a few 'ob- I should appear to be right, they would receive the
serrations on the different parts of it :as to the ex- I approbation that was due to them—if wrong, the
rdition of Copenhagen, it appeared to be the wish of 1 country must take care never to be again involved
Ministers to obtain an unqualified approbation of in so disgraceful a transaction.
that measure, before they had given that infornia- 1 Mr. MILNES said, he would endeavour to express
tion which could alone enable the House to judge 1 the ideas he entertained of the measures of his Ma-
either of its necessity or expediency. This was a jesty's present Ministers, and try to contrast them with
subject in which not only the interests of the country, those of the Hon. Gentlemen on the opposite side of
bat the national honour, was so much involved, that i the House ; from whom he had formed very' different
besimuld not give any decided opinion until Ministers ! opinions—and he was free to confess, that notwith-
gave the House some information respecting the' standing what had been stated with so much seeming
causes of the expedition. If Ministers should not of acuteness by the Hon. Gentleman who spoke last, on
themselves produce this information, he should take the several topics which were embraced in his Majes-
care to move for it. He had heard with great plea- ! ty's speech, he was disposed unequivocally to accede
sure the very able speech of the Noble Lord who i to the Address, without the smallest objection to any
moved the address ; but he must observe that both part of it. In the order in which the Hon. Gentle-
that Noble Lord and the Hon. Gentleman who man who spoke last had proceeded, the Danish expe-
seconded the Address, had taken a ground very dif- dition was the first that presented itself ; and, in con-
ferrr from that which was stated in his Majesty's sidering it, he could not agree with the Hon. Gentle-
Slieech. Ministers stated that the expedition arose man, that if Ministers were not able to produce parti-
from a determination on the part of France to seize cular documents to the House, of the information on
the Banish navy. The Noble Lord, however, and , which they proceeded to send out that expedition,
the Hon. Gentleman seemed to consider that England ' they would thereby subject themselves to the loss of
nad practised too much forbearance, had too long , character, not only with the people of this country,
conformed itself to the established laws and usages of but with all mankind. So far from it, he thought
cations, and that it was time to depart from. this ' the general state of affairs on the Continent, the
Ijstem of forbearance, and imitate the conduct of knowledge of what Bonaparte load effected with all
Bonaparte. As to the determination of France, or of those powers on the Continent whom he had subju-,
Russia and France conjointly, he could not see that it gated and made subservient to his sovereign will and
gave u s any right to attack the Danes in their capital; pleasure, would fully justify his Majesty's Ministers
nor . did he think we had any right to presume that in pursuing the measures. they had adopted, .and
the Cabinet of Denmark would comply with their would, instead of loss of character, entitle them to
Proposals from weakness, when it exhibited no symp- the praise of all impartial and dispassionate men.—
t(ln of this weakness. He found it still harder to When the Emperor of Russia had given up the cause
aaderstand the argument, that because Bonaparte of the confederacy in which he had engaged with
"al flagitious and unjust, and openly violated the Prussia and Sweden, and entered into the treaty of
bus and rights of nations, it therefore became notes- Tilsit, it had woon become known to Ministers what
!al,' for us to imitate his example. It had hitherto were the leading features of that measure ; and it was
been the pride and boast of this country to afford a doubtless on :he assurance of the determination of
Tema}, kable contrast to the violence and injustice of France to enforce that treaty to its fullest extent, that
ranee. England had hitherto been as remarkable they adopted the expedition in question. They re-
rcir good faith, and for respecting the right's of nations, ceived information that the Emperor of Russia
as France had been for violating every right which would employ his whole influence with the Court
Stood in the way of her ambition. If kit into a maritime cnisters did of Denmark to draw onfede-
-8...0tt. mean to eivethe House any information on the racy against this country ; to prevail on it .to
Zußlecr-beyondtheir bare assertion, he did not know unite the whole force of. its navy. aga- inst our corn-.
"' they could claim the approbation of that House. merce aad our maritime rights ; and it would (in his

opinion) have.heen an unpardonable omission 114
negligence in Ministers, after the infoniation they
had received, if they had nbt used every degree of dili-
gence and expedition in preventing a scheme which
would have militated so strongly against the dearest
interests of this country ; and, therefore, the observa-
tions that had been made against it weighed greatly in
his mind in its favour. He had heard it observed,
" that a thing might be necessary and yet unjust ;"
but to this he thought he was equally and fairly en-
titled to answer by asking, a Him can that be unjust
which is actually necessary ?" He would never agree,
while self-preservation was allowed to be the first law.
of nature, that we were bound to stand out for cer-
tainties in cases which depend on probabilities.—
Where measures were such as would allow of time
to sift thoroughly into every circumstance relating to
them, it would be most prudent to do so, and not to
act in important matters but on the fullest and most
satisfactory intelligence ; but when the safety of the
State was at stake, it would be criminal to wait for
proofs of a particular kind till the mischief should
be effected, which such proofs were intended to frus-
trate. He agreed with the Hon. Gentleman in
part of his concluding words, and allowed that
measures should be argued as little as possible on the
confidence of Ministers. He would therefore reject
that, and proceed to show that there was an actual
necessity for every thing that had taken place. He
did not think it by any means fair to argue, as the
Honourable Gentleman had done, that we had driven
Denmark into the arms of France. We ought not
to presume too much in favour of Denmark, but ra-
ther should presume that if we had not acted against
her, she would have done precisely as she has done
with regard to us. In order to form a fair and im-
partial judgment of this, it was necessary to look at
her former actions ; and then it would be remembered,
that she had acted in a manner very inimical to the
interests of this country. He had no doubt, from
what had before taken place, that Denmark, if per-
mitted to do so, would have acted the same part over
again ; and therefore he thought, we had, by the
promptitude and energy of his Majesty's Ministers,
been delivered from the effects of a measure that was
intended against, and, if not prevented, must have
proved highly injurious to the most important interests
of this maritime nation. He thought, therefore, that
his Majesty's Ministers were entitled to the just en-
comiuws of their country for what they had done; and
that the House ought to concur in that part cf the Ad-
dress which related to this part of the subject. A Noble
Lord had once observed, that he would never assist
an Ally till he did not want our assistance ; and, by
the same rule of argument, he might say, let us never
attack an enemy till they are in a condition to despise
us. He insisted, that the more concealed the at-
tempt, the greater necessity there was to guard
against its mischievous tendency, by a prompt and
vigorous defeat of it. The Treaty of Tilsit bad fixed
and bound the Emperor of Russia fast to the views
and measures of Bonaparte ; every act cf his, since
the execution of that Treaty, had daily and hourly
evinced his increasing admiration of, and adherence
to his plans and designs against this country. But
perhaps the Emperor of Russia, if he still persisted to
stoop with servility to those plans and designs, might
prove how far even a despotism like that which he
professed, could stand its ground against the united
voice of the whole nation. The Hon. Gentleman
had declined to enter into any argument on the sub-
ject of the Russian mediation ; because information
had been promised to be laid bfore the House ; and
also on the conduct of the Courts of Vienna and
Berlin, because he should move for information on
those subjects on a future day. He would not, there-
fore, take up the time of the House, by entering fur-
ther on either of those topics at the present moment ;
but he would observe; that he had no doubt on his
mind, but that the conduct of both these powers
had been actuated and guided by the predominant
and overbearing influence of Bonaparte, who
would not suffer any power on the Continent to con-
tinue at peace and amity with us ; and therefore
he thought Ministers were no ways culpable on ac-
count of the recent conduct of those governments.
He then adverted to the case of America, and hoped
that the good sense of the moderate and thinking
people in that country would so far influence its go-
vernment, as that matters might still be brought to
a fair and reasonable accommodation. His Majesty's
present Ministers had on their part shewn every desire
to do away every cause of complaint as far as they
could, without making a sacrifice of our most impor-
tant rights. If, however, after the concessions
which have been made on their part, a rupture should
be found to be inevitable, no blame could possibly
attach to them ; but the whole must be attributed
to the overweaning and all-powerful influence of
France. With regard to peace, he suspected that at
the present moment it would only prove a mere inse-
cure suspension of hostilities ; and on the whole he
should give his cordial concurrence to the present
Address.
Mr. WHITBREAD intended, at a moment so
critical and important, to submit a few observations
to the House ; but even if he had had no such inten-
tion, he should have found himself called upon to ad-
vert to some things that had fallen from the Hon.
Gentleman who had just sat down. For the talents
of that Hon. Gentleman he had a very high respect ;
but well as he thought of them, and notwithstanding
the appropriate praises which he had bestowed upon
the Noble Lord who moved the Address, accompa-
nied as they were with a recommendation to his
Right Honourable Friend (Mr. Ponsonby ) to be
more acute in his reasonings, he would excuse him if
he ventured to say, that he did not think that he had
ability QUITE equal to the task of overturning the
eternal principles of justice, and those unchangeable
laws of morality, which it was wholly out of the
power of all politicians either to alter or to shake. If
there was no other justification of the attack upon
Denmark than what had been given this evening, he
had no hesitation in declaring it base and treache-
rous ; and in prognosticating, that it would prove
as prejudicial to us in its political consequences as
it had been unjust in its origin and cruel in its mode
of execution. The Honourable Gentleman had at-
tempted to justify the deed, on the score of necessity;
and in doing so, had argued, that the more concealed
was the enmity of Denmark, the more necessity it
was for us to follow it up. But by the same mode of
reasoning, would not any individual in private life be
justified in assassinating another, whom, for some
cause or other, be suspected of entertaining a sentiment

AkshoiWaled hatred > n the lionoutahie ten&
man Who setbnded the Addicts (Mr. Ellis), in talk;
in gof our resciortes' ntiMbered arhong them Mir ;no&
rarity as a nation, he was surprised didllobt
blush. Are we really, Mt. Whitbread asked] be*
to thispass, that it is announced in a public dechtria
tion,wven in the name of the King, that teef WlIo
have been always-bending at the altar of the Wing.
GOD, acknowledging -his superintending Providence
and professing. obefience to his laws, have been
ways in the wrong,' and that Bonaparte, that iron=
shipper of Baal, has bden always in the right ? The
•HOnourable Gentleman, too; had talked of the gl&
rious results of the contest, -while, with the salt*
breath, they were told, that after fifteen years war, fie
had arrived at a state In which we could ekert dtii
naval force so as to surprise the enemy ! And Imw
was this illustrated ? We had, in the course of the
last summer, taken sixteen hulks (for this was the
only name by which he could call them) from Den-
mark, so many tons of hemp, and a quantity, he
knew not how many, of spars, masts, &c. And what,
he had asked, had we paid for these, merely politically
speaking ? We had-given the whole maritime popular
dos of Denmark to France ; we had given to France
the hearts of all her people. Mr. Whitbread declared
that be would rather have seen the fleet of Denmark
in fort:ed hostility againt us, manned by her sailors)
acting under compulsion, than he would, after what
has happened, see them moored in our own ports. In
addition to the inveterate animosity of Denmark, to
which this act had given rise, had it not also been the
means of cutting off our communication with the
Continent, as well as of throwing Denmark into
the arms of France ? But we were told, that it
would be dangerous to grant the information de,
sired. To whom, he asked, would it be dangerous ?
To Ministers ?' It might or it might not be so,
for he verily believed they had none to give.—
Who gave them the information on which they
acted ? This he could not well conceive, since they
had already asserted their being in possession of it ;
and it surely was not very material, after avowing
this fact, whether they imparted the substance of the
• " ,rmation or not. Their informers would be no more

compromised than they were already. Such pretexts
would be wholly unavailing to protect them from the
execrations of all mankind ; with which, indeed, they
were already loaded. But what, he asked, could in
their minds have created the necessity for this attack?
He owned that he could conceive a case in it
might be justifiable ; but till this case was made, he
was obliged to express himself in the strong manner he
did ; particularly when they seemed pertinaciously to
refuse any documents which might tend to their justi-
fication. An inference had been attempted to be drawn
of the hostile intentions of the Danes, from the circum-
stance of their having assembled their army upon the
frontier of Holstein. But, in his mind, this circumstance
told quite the other way. If the Court of Denmark had
known that there were any secret articles signed at
Tilsit, of the nature and tendency described, would it
not have occurred to it, that this Country might be
made acquainted with them, by some means or other,
and that an attack upon her wouldbe the consequence ?
Instead, however, of concentrating her army in Zea-
land to oppose the attack which, upon the supposition
stated, she had such occasion to apprehend, she assem-
bled her force in a position to oppose France, from
whom, as is pretended, she had nothing to fear. As to
the fact itself we have assertion against assertion—the
assertion of the Crown Prince of Denmark on the one
hand, and an assertion which Ministers had put into
the mouth of their Sovereign on the other; and for his
own part he had no hesitation in saying, that he gave
credit to the former in preference to the latter.
Whitbread here adverted to an expression used by the
Noble Lord who moved the Address, highly deroga-
tory to the courage of the Crown Prince, and such as
certainly never ought to have been applied to any man
who, like him, had been tried, or, indeed, to any man
who was untried. He saw, however, with sorrow and
regret, that it 'vas quite the fashion to deal out sar-
casms, and sometimes abuse, on those powers who, in
consequence of the pressure of circumstances, had been
compelled to abandon our cause. He was fa- from
thinking that the Emperor Alexander had dese -ted its
in a moment of despondency and alarm, as had been
stated, but that he had been forced to the step he took
by the strong necessity of the case. Such reflections,
to say the least of them, he thought extremely injudi-
cious, and he had seen some observations in the public
prints, which deserved to be more severely stigma-
tized. From the subject of the expedition to Copen-
hagen, the Honourable Member passed to the emi-
gration of the Court of Lisbon, from which Ministers
had the countenance to claim great merit. That this
had turned out fortunately, he was ready to admit,
but that they had any thing to do with it, he utterly
and entirely denied. In the Speech, they would
make the world believe that they were not likely to be
tricked and bamboozled by the Prince Regent of Por-
tugal, as they would have been by the Crown Prince
of Denmark, had it not been for their vigorous and
energetic measures. No, no. Every thing at Lisbon
was sincerity, openness, and good faith. They and
their agent Lord Strangford, brought about the whole
by dexterity and address. But in the Midst of all this
boasting, did they forget that the Prince Regent had
published a Proclamation in the first place, telling, all
the English to get out of the way as fast as they
could, and in the next place announcing the' deter-
mination to join the Continental confederacy against
this country. In the mean time, however, Bonaparte's
inj udic ious, cruel, and wicked proclamation (they might
call it by what epithets they would) appeared, and in
the absence of Lord Strangford, the Prince Regent
changed his mind. At length Lord Strangford re-
turned ; finding very unexpectedly that the Court had
embarked, he assured it of the forgiveness of his SoVe-
reign, and fortunately the fleet set sail to the Brazils.
This was the plain matter of fact. As to the com-
mercial prospect which this event was represented as
opening to us, all he could say was, that the Gentle.
men on the other side, who had drawn such a lively
picture of what might be expected from it, were very
young, and might live to see their prophecies realized,
but for himself, he had no such hope. He could nei-
ther, therefore, approve of thanking Ministers for
getting off the Court of Portugal to the Brazils, not
for their expedition to Denmark, in which, in his opi-
nion, they had a great deal of demerit ; and if he
thought that he could be supposed as approving t f
that part of the Address which related to these sub-
jects, he would move that the two paragraphs shoald
be left out. But there was another part of the Ad-

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