The Sun.
London, England, 1829-03-14 00:00:00

jest, and would thus place it in a condition to decide to
"'hid' of the petitions the greatest weight was due. As a
e tizen of Dublin, it was not for him to question the loy-
' sky of the Lord Mayor and Corporation of that city, on
which his lion. and Learned Friend had enlarged with so
• much display. Ever since the time of James I. they had
been coraidered a most loyal corporation. lie trusted that
they would continue unshaken in their loyalty ; and that
their good sense would lead them to acquiesce in whatever
• measure,' Parliament should sanction with its deliberate
approval. 'When he heard his Hon. and Learned Friend
• tell the House that he was presenting a petition from the
corporation of Dublin, and that the Lord Mayor of that
loyal corporation was not intimidated by the existing state
of things in Ireland, he was reminded of another Lord
' 'Mayor, who being out a hunting, and starting a hare, ex-
• claimed, "I'm not afraid."—(A laugh.)—" What cause,
• I would ask," said the Hon. Member, " is there for the
Lord Mayor of Dublin to be afraid ? What are we going
to de? We are going to place on a satisfactory basis the
• Peace of the city of Dublin, and along with the peace
of the city of Dublin, the peace of the whole empire."
' •--.(Hear.)—He had heard much of late of the genera
right of the people to petition, but why he hail heard se
much of it of late he could scarcely tell, for he bad never
heard the right questioned. He had likewise heard much
of the respect which ought to be paid to the petitions of
individuals. He acquiesced sincerely in that doctrine, but
if those who propounded it meant that equal respect was
to he attached to all petitions, and that we were not to con-
sider the different bodies from which they came, he begged
to dissent entirely from them. We should not treat peti-
tions with greater respect than that with which we treat
• one another, and it is well known that, though we are all
equal in this House, we give to the opinions of the same
men different weight upon different subjects. In like man-
ner, 'whoever wished to give due weight to the petitions of
the people, would refer to the means and ability of the
rne:Workers to obtain information, and to the honesty and
t hegarity of the motives by which they were influenced.
bWr.c.t. then became of the petitions of the
saddlers, and
a I.klaYers, and Plasterers, and barbers, which his Hon.
nd Learned Friend had brought forward, he would not
say with pomp, but with abundance of theatrical dexte-
rity? What did they prove? They proved the existence
of the disordered state of society which the House was so
anxious to cure—they proved that passion and prejudice
abounded amoug those from whom they came—and
. sorry was he to say that passion and prejudice abounded
on this subject not only in Ireland but also in this country
t" a great extent. He guessed that this was the case in
England from the number of petitions which had been pre-
sented against concession, and from the rapidity with
which gentlemen declared that these petitions acquired
signatures. It was only the other night that an Hon. Mem-
ber, in presenting a petition from his constituents, had
declared that they were so eager to show their aversion to
the contemplated measures of Government, that they had
aged to it thirty signatures in the course of a minute—
tn short, that they had been sailing at the rate of nine knots
an hour till till they reached the end of their parchment
and petition. Did not that circumstance prove that a great
excitement was abroad, and that the more rapidly our
measures proceed to allay it, the greater service we shall
confer upon the country?—(Hear.)—He imputed no im-
proper motives to the petitioners : he trusted that in what
! Said he had uttered nothing offensive to their feelings.
He had spoken tenderly their motives in calling them
eoel"s• He had no doubt that they were entertained
conscientious] ; but be had as little doubt that they were
only the echo of feelings existing in that House. He
honoured and respected the manner
in which the peti-
tio
ners put forward their views ; but he could not help ob-
-
serving that he had heard but little of the arguments by which
they supported them. Even his lion. and Learned Friend,
the member for Dublin, had not favoured him with any
'lngin the shape of argument. Night after night had his
Non, and Learned Friend dinned into his ears the year
1688,-1688 was his everlasting cry. He left the House
for a short time one evening, and the last words which he
heard on the lips of his Hon. and Learned Friend were
• " 1688." He came back, expecting to find that at the
end of that time his lion. and Learned Friend had got at
least a century in advance. But no, he had not stirred from
his darling " 1688." It still sounded on his tongue ; for
the year 44 1688" formed the beginning, middle, and ter-
mination of every speech of his lion. and Learned Friend.
'(Laughter.)—He had heard the Hon. Member for Glou-
tester proceed in a similar strain—he had seen him de-
scribes petition with a sirit of gravity which circumstances
rendered perfectly ludicrous. " This petition," said the
110 o• Member, " is entitled to peculiar respect—it is not
liable to any objection—it has not been signed by any women
"wit has not been hawked about from house to house—it
• has not been signed by any youth under sixteen,"—nor, he
"ght to have added, by any old woman of 88, for then the
Petition would have been quite perfect•—(Laughter.)—
. But he would ask, were all youths above 18 years of age
qualified to give an opinion upon this irritating, perplex-
ing> and complicated question ?—(Hear, hear.)—lf the
difficulties of this question were such as had been repre-
sented growing out of the construction of Acta of Parlia-
Ment, did his Hon. and Learned Friend mean to contend
that the plasterers, and bricklayers, and barbers of Dublin,
or even the Lord Mayor of Dublin himself (cheers and
roars of.laughter), were persons properly qualified to un-
derstand them ?—( Hear, hear.) But his lion. and Learned
Friend objected to these measures, because " they were,"
he said, "an infraction rif the Protestant settlement in
Church and State, obtained by the revolution of 1688,"
and he backed his opinion upon this point with the autho-
rity, the learned authority, of the Lord Mayor of Dublin.
He (Mr. Doherty) told his Hon. and Learned Friend that
he had listened with great attention, not only to his argu-
ment!, on that point, but to those of all the Hon. Members
114)0 had debated this question. He hail heard many of
them, and such of them as he had not heard he had read
with greatcare ; and the calm conclusion at which, after
ail his study, he had arrived, was, that the settlement of
this question on the terms now proposed, was no infrac-
tion of the Constitution as settled in his Hon. and Learned
vrieod's favourite year of 1688.—(Hear, hear.) He did
not wish to speak harshly of his lion. and learned Friend ;
het,s felt for him a respect which his Honourable and
h—varned Friend well knew was not likely to be diminished
t-7 any difference of opinion which might exist be-
Pee them on this uestion. He really believed that
IT" difference arose qfrom this circuinstance,—that his
"°sourable and Learned Friend would never allow his
excellent understanding to deliberate on this question.—
' blreftstances had given to his Hon. and Learned Friend's
4-4114 a biati which he could not control, and he had no
t:!aht that his Hon. and Learned Friend would soon inform
to that this was a question on which he had never en-
'll4ined any doubt,—on which he had new* felt any diffi-
csti.itY• It was because lie had never entertained doubt, and
' tZer felt difficulty, that his Hon. and Learned Friend had
en• his station among the friends of exclusion. If he
hadh ever entertained doubts, if he had ever felt difficulties,
he would have inquired deeply into the subject, and instead
Islam backing himself on points of law by the opinions of
erierst brick! ere and barbers—(Cheers and laugh-
Would haveay 'ranked himself with those able, en-
lightened
persons whose petition it would be his duty to
Present soon to the House. It appeared from his Hon.
and Learned Friend's speech, that the great difficulty
Which_„ he felt to the proposed adjustment of the Catholic
iv:l44ns, arose out of the suggestion of the plasterers and bar-
-"ert of Dublin,—that by agreeing to it we were infringing
• ;II the Protestant Constitution as settled in the year 1688.
to if it were suggested to any gentleman who was going
sake a change in the settlement of his estate, that
fit a settlement was a violation of the laws, would
Litugh gentleman. go to the Lord Maydr of Dublin.—(A
)---or to the pation in the Dock-yards, or
e fLi•rtners and graziers of Sussex, and consult them
h to the correctness of the suggestion ?—(Hear,
IV If he were perplexed with the doubts suggested to
trh! es would oon discover that there vas no one to
ulft lie could so well apply for a solution of them as
1,..,e4s Who had looked into the law, and were from their
Stutt . Well acquainted with all its intricacies. By a parity
os:taatioing, he thought that the doubts of any reasonable
al to whether this adjustment was in opposition to
bye Principles of the revolution of 1688, might be satisfied
et:Electing. that 327 members of the English Bar, who
lisit-e accustomed to consider the meaning of Acts of Par-
• jud tint, and who were without any interest to warp their
te,',Pneot, had petitioned the House in favour of it. They
ts;„1 0f Opinion that it would not make any infringe-
pir"j °O the law, and in their opinion a large pro-
gar °f the barristers of Ireland concurred. He now
op pro-
gars that he should have the honour of presenting
-Pat6„°l3llsY next, a petition in favour of Catholic Emanci-
Ilar'''' signed by 100 Protestant Members of the Irish
the. (Loud cries of Hear, hear.) He should also have
fr7ll;nor. of presenting a petition with the same prayer
"tY-seven Roman Catholic barristers of Ireland.
tionedr).,l.tear.) He might be asked, why he had not men-
Lac' sooner ? Because the Roman Catholic barristers
• larll direct interest in the adjustment of the question. The
• a,,,,p0-"rlanit barristers, were they to measure their own mo-
th 'id also a direct interest the other way; and yet,
Ward eternal credit be it spoken, they had come f0r-
i111.64_411,. 1s hundred of them had signed a petition, pray-
thisroutnent to make a final and conciliatory adjustment
question.—(llear, hear.)—Do these three petitions
bar, ar:ligned by 327 Protestant members of the English
kid the 14s ‘n,her,by 100 Protestant members of the Irish bar,
t by 67 %mins Catholic barristers of Ireland,

give no support to the opinion's of those who say, that in
point of law what you now meditate to do for Ireland is no
infringementof your Protestant ( Smstitution ?—(Hear. )
It appeared to-him that the petition he had to pre-
sent was extremely valuable in another respect. II! did
not wish to disparage the petitions which his Heilluraltle
and Learned Friend had presented ; yet he intist say, that,
looking at the petitions of the hat risters of Ireland and their
167 signatures, they were entitled to at least as much re-
spect as the petitions of the Lord Mayor and Corporation of
Dublin, and of the plasterers, bricklayers, and barbers,
who followed in their train.—(Hear, hear.)—He was
ashamed to have trespassed so lone- upon the indulgence of
the House, but when he saw that his Honourable and
Learned Friend was seeking to produce an effect upon the
House by the pompous enumeration of the different guilds
from which his petitions came, he did think it right to an-
nounce to those who were anxious to come to a just con-
clusion on this subject, the respectable petitions which he
was going to present on the other side of the question.
Mr TRANI' denied the justness of the insinuation
which his Hon. and Learned Friend, who had just sat down
appeared to him anxious to propagate,—namely, that there
was scarcely any person but bricklayers and plasterers, and
barbers, opposed to the present measures of Government.
Anti now, as to the Members of the Irish bar. If he had
not been misinformed, the greater part of the gentlemen
who were most eminent at that bar were opposed to the
measures now proposed. His Hon. and Learned Friend's
colleague in office, the Attorney-General for Ireland, was
opposed to it. So, too, was Mr. Saurin, and a long list of
gentlemen, which he held in his hand, and which, if ne-
cessary, he could recite. The Irish bar, he had been given
to understand, comprised from 500 to 600 persons. His
Hon. and Learned Friend said that his petition was signed
by a hundred Protestant and 30 or 40 Catholic barristers.
(Cries of " No, no ; 67.") Take it at 67 :—and his total
does not exceed 167. He mentioned this, because his Hon.
and Learned Friend had dwelt with great emphasis on the
number of names subscribed to his petition, and had left the
House to guess how many there might be on the other side.
He had attempted to supply that deficiency. On the
general question he had so often troubled the House—
(Loud cries of " Hear")—well, it might be that he had
troubled the House, but he felt an anxiety with respect
to it which he could not control. Ile was considered,
in general, a very good setter,—(Hear, and a laugh,)—and
he had only risen, for the want of a better man, to address
the House on this question.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.)
The petition was then brought up. On the question
that it be read,
Mr. MOORE said that he (lid not intend to follow his
Hon. and Learned Friend, the Solicitor-General for Ire-
land, through the various points of his long and entertain-
ing speech. His Hon. and Learned Friend had made,
however, one or two observations to which he must be
permitted to give an answer. His Hen. and Learned
Friend, after making a very extraordinary disparagement
of the judgment and information of the humbler classes of
his fellow-countrymen, had included within his sarcasms
all the different trades front which he had that night had
the honour of presenting petitions. The amusing manner
in which his Hoe-. and Learned Friend had alluded to
them had excited the merriment of the House. For his
own part he loved a joke, but by some strange accident he
could not enjoy it at the expence of his constituents. In -
spite of the sneers which had been directed against him, he
would say, that among the individuals whose petitions he
had presented were to be found some of the most intelli-
gent, the most independent, and the best-informed
men on every practical subject connected with the
state of society in Ireland.—(Cries of hear, hear.)—
Let him tell his Hon. and Learned Friend, that the world,
since the French Revolution, had furnished too many
examples that brilliancy of talent was not always connected
with eminence of rank. Let him tell his Hon. and
Learned Friend, that though the judgment of the poorest
man in the state might not be a title for hint to guide the
conduct of Parliament—(a laugh)—still it ought to be
taken into consideration. Any man, however " unbril-
tient " he might be, might produce a useful suggestion ;
' and there was not a subject of this realm whose feelings,
and wishes, and prejudices ought not to be treated with
respect in Parliament.—(Hear, hear.) In mentioning
that respect ought to be paid to the prejudices of the people,
he would refer to an authority which he was sure that his
lion. and Learned Friend would admit as excellent,—he
meant the authority of the late Mr. Canning, who in re-
ference to this subject, and to the general feelings of the
Protestants of the empire in 1827, declared that there
was an inert mass of opposition to these claims in the
country, which he would not venture upon the responsibi-
lity of moving. He had perhaps trespassed too long al-
ready upon the patience of the House, but his Hon. and
Learned Friend had made an appeal personal to himself, to
which he must ask their indulgence to hear his reply. His
Hon. and Learned Friend had told the House that if he
(Mr. Moore) had ever applied his understanding to the
consideration of this question, he would have come to a
conclusion on it similar to his own (Mr. Doherty's.) His
Hon. and Learned Friend had alluded to peculiar circum-
stances—what they were he (Mr. Moore) could not ima-
gine—which he said had given a bias to his (Mr. Moore's)
mind, which had led to his present course of public ac-
tion. If his Hon. and Learned Friend meant to insinuate
that he (Hr. Moore) had adopted certain political opinions
in order to get returned for the city which he had then the
honour to represent in Parliament, he (Mr. Moore) could
tell him (Mr. Doherty) that he (Mr. Doherty) imputed
to him (Mr. Moore) that for which there was no founda-
tion. Ever since he had been able to think on !political
subjects, he had come to the conclusions on which he had
recently acted. Through all his collegiate life, through all
his academical career, even then, when from the influence
of youth and the presence of classical associations, the
flame of liberty burns brightest—even then he had always
tempered his heat with a mixture of loyalty, avowing that
true liberty could only be obtained in this country by a
strict adherence to the Protestant principles of the British
Constitution.—(Hear.)
Mr. DOHERTY—I have been particularly unfortunate
in delivering my sentiments to-night, if I have said any
thing which could be fairly considered to reflect upon the
honourable feelings of my Hon. and Learned Friend. I
had no such intention. lam convinced that my Hon. and
Learned Friend did not adopt his present principles to secure
to himself the representation of the city of Dublin.—
(Hear, hear.)—l did not make any such charge against
hint. All that I insinuated was, that whilst others had
allowed their opinions to change with the change of cir-
cumstances, my Hon. and Learned Friend had remained
unchanged, because he would never allow his reason to
have fair play upon this question.—(Hear.)
Mr. H. GRATTAN bore testimony to the respecta-
bility of many of the signatures attached to the petitions
presented by his Hon. and Learned Colleague. He also said
that his Hon. Colleague had gained his seat in that House
by the use of two magic words—" Protestant ascendancy."
By such means, after four days' labour, and without can-
vassing 36,000 men, he had achieved that prize which cost
him (Mr. H. Grattan) six years' labour to obtain.
Mr. WEBB (we believe) would not have said one word
upon the present occasion, had the Hon. Member for
Gloucester been present to rebut the attack made upon a
petition which he had presented, by the Noble and Learned
Gentleman who filled the office of Solicitor-General for
Ireland. He had received letters requesting him, in case
the same system of attack which was directed against other
petitions, should be directed against that petition, to repel
it by a plain statement of facts. That petition received
600 signatures in two hours. There were no placards
issued on our side, but some were published on the other
side, containing personal invectives which might better
have been spared.
Thu petition was laid on the table, and ordered to be
printed.
Mr. MOORE held in his hand a petition from the city
of Dublin against the Catholic claims, which was signed
by upwards of 4,000 persons, all of whom had added their
places of residence to their signatures. Among them were
several of the clergy, a great majority of the higher classes
of society, and of the respectable and wealthy citizens
of Dublin, a considerable portion of the freemen and Pro-
testant feeholders, and above 400 of the students of the
University. This petition might be properly said to
speak the great Protestant voice of Ireland. On moving
that this petition be brought up,-

Mr. NORTH said, that the Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man had described this petition as conveying the sense of
the rising youth of Ireland, and particularly of those of
the University of Dublin, as well as of the heads of the so-
ciety in the Irish metropolis. It had so happened from op-
portunities which he (Mr. N.) enjoyed, and of which it was
unnecessary for him further to speak, that he had the means
of knowing what was the opinion of the rising youth of
Ireland upon this great question. And accordingly, from
his experience and best information, he could truly affirm,
that their opinion now, and indee3 for the last twenty
years, was favourable to the adjustment of a subject which
they felt to involve the peace and tranquillity of their
country. He knew, indeed, and probably it was equally
familiar to his Hon. and Learned Friend, that men might
be found who would consider the Univeisity as a fit and
appropriate place to infuse into youthful minds very dif-
ferent sentiments—who would betray the sacred trust re-
posed in them, and instead of conducting the path of youth
to purity of feeling, and generosity and liberality of con-
duct, would take the opportunity of infusing into the ten-
der mind the deadly virus of party strife—(hear)--and
at a time too, when the understanding was not matured,

and the judgment not clearly directed for the consider
of a subject which involved many diflieulties in its various
aspects. If such attempts were made in that University,
confident he was, they must have been attended w ith signal
failure. He could speak positively of the rising youth of
the Irish bar, among whom he was very happy to say there
only prevailed one sentiment, and it corresponded with
that expressed and so often vindicated by his Hon. and
Learned Friend (Mr. Doherty), who was so distinguished
an ornament of their profession. lie could not speak so
fully of the sentiments of another portion of the youth of
Ireland, who went forth from the University to the Church
of Ireland. But of them, or the great majority of them,
he could safely say, that he had seen them preparing for
the study of that sacred profession to which they were de-
stined with principles suitable to their object—he had seen
them animated by a pure zeal for their holy religion, fer-
verstly devoted to infuse the true sentiments of the Protestant
religion in Ireland; but he had always heard them upon
this particular question of Catholic exclusion say, that
they considered it not a religious but a political question,
and one which they were prepared to leave to the judg-
ment of the Government and the Legislature.
Mr. MOORE, with regard to his Hon. and Learned
Friend's contradiction, could only repeat what he had said
before, and what was demonstrated by the petition itself,
—that it was signed by a considerable portion of the stu-
dents of the University of Dublin, and he had further the
best assurance for believing, that these sentiments were
participated in by 49 out (4;50 of the rising youth of Ire-
land. If there were any disingenuous influence at work to
obtain these signatures, he could assure his Hon. and
Learned Friend that it was entirely unknown to him.
Mr. CROKER could have no doubt that the persons
who had signed this petition, were highly respectable, and
that the opinion of such a portion of the youth of Ireland
as had concurred in it was equally entitled to whatever re-
spect was due to the sentiments of persons passing through,
probably, the first stage of their education. But were he
even to go all the lengths which the Hon. and Learned
Member did, in enforcing the prayer of the petition--were
he to ♦iew it, not as an expression of youthful opinion,
but of matured knowledge, emanating from those who
were perfectly educated, who understood the laws of their
country, and had experience of their bearings upon the
community exposed to their operation, for it was expe-
rience which was the strongest and best of all the learning
that could he applied to this subject—were he to admit all
this, how far would he go in embodying the opinions of the
people of Ireland, gathered during the 28 or 30 years
which this question had been agitated among them ? What-
ever merits belonged to the youth who had signed this peti-
tion, it would be unfair to bestow on them the possession of
the light of experience—but how came it, that the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman had armed himself with arithmeti-
cal strength upon this occasion, and boasted that 49 out
of 50 of the youth of Ireland were in favour of this petition.
If so, why had they not signed it?—(Hear, hear.)—The
numbers computed by the Hon. Member as subscribers to
this petition were not one-sixth of the number entered
on the books of Trinity College. If forty-nine out of
fifty of the rising youth of Ireland, as he asserted,
thought with him, then why had he not more than
one-sixth of them upon his list, when his cause
called for their appearance? Were the fact as he had
stated, instead of being, as he (Mr. Croker) knew
it to he, the reverse, he did not think it the best or
the wisest policy to proclaim that Intolerance had raised her
seat in an University whose noble origin gave her the proud
title of being the eldest daughter of the Reformation,—an '
University which had always shown her legitimate title to
that high distinction, by her toleration and general modem-
tion of opinions, by her liberal opening of education to per-
sons of other sects, by her mild and gentle bearing in all
her ways, in the spirit of her benevolent foundation.
When gentlemen thought proper to refer in this manner to
the University of Dublin, it was time to inform them,
that she had not thought proper to express any opinion upon,
or take any part in, the present agitation of the great ques-
tion which now divided the national attention. In for..
bearing from doing so, she had evinced great wisdom, and
much propriety : her walls enclose for purposes of educa-
tion large masses of Protestant and Catholic students. It
became her to abstain from flinging the torch of discord
into ranks among which inflammable spirits may reside.
She has taken the part that became her under such circum-
stances. But there was an appeal which spoke her senti-
ments far more forcibly than the loudest tongue could utter
—the impressive lesson of her silence in the midst of
all these elements of excitement. She had on a for-
mer occasion petitioned this House against concession.
In this crisis, this acme of excitement, she remained silent;
he was therefore entitled to say, that she was the friend of
toleration, and contented to leave this question at the calm
disposal of the Legislature, having with good taste and pro-
priety abstained from agitating it in a place of education,
where it could only lead to the diffusion of political rancour
and hatred. Either the P,rotestant seal had much declined,
or it could not find vent, for the proof was in the paucity
of names to such petitions as this. He had himself re-
peatedly canvassed the suffrage of the University, as an old
and tried supporter of the Catholic claims, and he had re-
ceived support upon principles diametrically opposite to
those which the Hon. and Learned Gentleman asserts. So
much for the sentiments of the University of Dublin.
Mr. MOORE said, that the Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man should recollect, that at the time when he (Mr. Moore)
had canvassed the University of Dublin, there prevailed very
peculiar circumstances, and that when the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman had afterwards succeeded there, it was on the
strength of promises made at a former election, which, had
he (Mr. Moore) continued to offer himself, he must have
preferably received from such parties. If occasion shonld
recur, he feared the Hon. and Learned Gentleman would,
upon the same ground, be compelled to endure a very great
disappointment. It would then be seen who was the favourite.
Mr. CHOKER must tell the Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman, that he flattered himself exceedingly with his ex-
pectation, that whatever became of him (Mr. Croker), a
Protestant bigot could ever hope to represent the Univer-
sity of Dublin.—( Hear. )—Surely it was only necessary to
refer to the names of those who had represented it, to de-
monstrate that this kind of intolerance could not find ad-
mission there. Take the names during the whole of the
time that this Catholic question had been agitated. In
1793 the University was represented by Mr. Browne and
Mr. Hutchinson, who were both in favour of the Catholic
question ; next by Mr. George Knox, the very person
who, in the Irish Parliament, brought forward a motion
to admit Catholics into the Legislature. For a short time
after, the University was, Ire knew, represented by Mr.
Foster, who has, like other enlightened men, lately changed
his previous opinions, which were anti-Catholic, into those
of the promoters of concession. After him came the ablest
advocate the Catholics ever bad in Parliament, Lord
Plunket, who had been repeatedly returned for the Uni-
versity. With the single exception, then, of Mr. Foster,
the University of Dublin has, since 1793, when these
Catholic discussions became urgent, returned representa-
tives who were always favourable to the Catholic claims.
The petition was laid on the table.
• Mr. HENRY WHITE presented petitions in favour of
the Catholic claims from Whitechurch, Sandiford, and
other parts of the county of Dublin, where all the rank of
the resident nobility were agreed upon this question, and
where the names of the chief residents would be found con-
curring in the desire to put an end to these religious dis-
qua;ifications.

- Sir F. BURDETT—I have a petition to lay before the
House from the Roman Catholics of Ireland, and I trust it
will be the last time I ever shall be called upon to present
it. At the same time, I shall claim attention to another
petition, demanding equal consideration : and I am sure it
will receive it when I state the honourable manner in
which it has been prepared and signed, without induce-
ment or solicitation, by eight thousand inhabitants of Lon-
don, who have also annexed their places of residence. No
person was allowed to sign for another; and, as a proof, I
may mention that a gentleman of the name of Holdsworth,
of Argyle-street, by a note requested that his name might
be added to the rest, but the request could not be com-
plied with. The petition may be looked upon as a fair
sample of the sense of the enlightened Protestant inhabit-
ants of the kingdom—as fair a sample of the Protestant
sense as the other petition I have to present is of the
Catholic feeling. Much has been said in the course of
these discussions about the manner in which petitions have
been got up, and the weight to which they are entitled : no
man can be more unwilling than I am to cast a slur on
petitioners, and still more to throw any impediment
in the way of petitioning; but circumstances must be.
taken into considerations, and we well know that all the
worst passions have been appealed to, that every thing
that could excite animosity and rouse vulgar and obsolete
prejudices has been brought forward on the one side, and
it is fit that some distinction should be made between the
two kinds of petitions. No persons who have seats in
this House would condescend to such a course ; but there
are persons throughout the country endeavouring to pro-
duce feelings the most violent and absurd, not merely by
addresses but by prints, so that those who cannot even
read are still enlisted on the side of illiberality. I have one of
these productions in my possession, representing a person
with a torch in one hand and cat o'nine-tails in the other, and
this representation is accompanied with some curious anec-
dotes of Priests. Then we have a view of the Pope, Guy
Faux, and what is called " the Delights of Popery," with
other monstrous and insane absurdities, of which no loan
not led away by folly and passion would be guilty. That
which is addressed to the understanding of the people, if I

may so say, is well worthy of that which more immediately
appeals to the it eyes. Aiming other things we are told, in
one of the publicationa, "It is an article of the Roman
Catholic religion that no faith is to be kept with heretics,
and that Roman Catholics arc not bound &ica by the most
sacred oaths." Then are subjoined a number of ques-
tions, such as " Who burnt to death the Protestants
in 1519 ?" " Who burnt them in 1520 ?" " Who was
the author of the Gunpowder Plot ?" " Who massacred
200,000 Irish Protestants in 1611 ?" " Who are now as-
sisting the Catholics—but the uniform opposers of the Ca-
binet and of the Throne for the last twenty years?" This
last question seems a little illatimed, at the moment when
the Duke of Wellington and the Right Hon. Home Se-
cretary, who have uniformly supported the Cabinet and
the Throne for the last 20 years, are also supporters of
concession. Such things are almost beneath notice ; and
they would be quite beneath it, but for the baseness and
malignity of the design with which they are circulated:
It is ridiculous to suppose that any sensible thinking or
well-educated person would be affected by them, and it is
gratifying enough to see how little they have operated
upon the class which was intended to be influenced by
them. Undoubtedly a very great number of peti-
tions have been presented ; but when we know that
they have been got up by frauds of this description, what
importance can we attach to them? No wonder that such
as were thus alarmed should subscribe petitions. If they
believed the representations to be true, it was natural that
they should hasten to affix their names ; but petitions thus
got up are evidently not entitled to the consideration which,
under other circumstances, they would receive. Some
lion. Members, on this side of the House too, have said,
with more candour than justice, that we ought not to be
too nice in examining how petitions have been got up, and
that errors would be found on both sides. It seems to me
that this statement is founded on a degree of over-candour,
and that it is not doing justice to the petitions in favour of
the Claims to admit its correctness. I believe that no peti-
tions for concession have been obtained by any such means.
I hope and trust that this is the last time I shall have oc-
casion to say a syllable on this question, and I will, there-
fore, take this opportunity of addressing a few parting
words to the House ; and I shall then take my leave of the
topic with the utmost satisfaction._ It must be a source of
much gratification that the measures have already produced
a most beneficial effect in Ireland, and in future I am sure
that we shall see all the pleasing anticipations of the King's
Ministers realised. I had no notion, however, that the
first fruits would have ripened so speedily. Not only is the
Catholic Association at an end—of which body it is but
justice to say that it took the earliest opportunity of reliev-
ing us from the embarrassment or offence that might be
taken at their existence, but other advantages have succeed-
ed. The moment the recommendation came from the throne,
supported by the ability and good faith of the Government,
the Catholic Association threw itself on the justice and judg-
ment of the Legislature, so that in Ireland at present there
are no agitators, and there is no agitation : even the Anti-
Catholic agitators have disappeared ; for while they addressed
themselves to the most ignorant passions they obtained no re-
sponse. They, therefore, left the question to be discussed
by Parliament, and to be decided upon its own merits by
the proper tribunal. The able statement of the Right
Hon.illorne Secretary leaves little for any man to say upon
the general question ; and it was no sooner received in
Ireland than, I am authorised to say, that even the Bruns-
wick and Orange Clubs were at an end, and the respect-
able persons of all parties at once made a voluntary move-
ment towards reconciliation. The Brunswickers were met
with open arms by the Catholics, and every thing indi-
cated peace, harmony, and good will. Much has been
said in reprobation of the conduct of the Right Honourable
Gentleman, and it is unnecessary for me to undertake his
defence ; but when it is said that his character has been
any way injured, I beg to ask what is the foundation of
the character of any man? They do not impeach his
honour, or the integrity of his motives—the benevolent
desire to conciliate and tranquillize can he no impeachment
of his heart. On what other grounds does character rest ?
If intellectual power be to be taken into the account, the
Right Hon. Gentleman was convinced of the necessity of
the measure, his masterly and manly speech carried the
same conviction to the House. But there is no imputa-
tion in that respect. There are no reasonably strong
grounds for such a representation ; and no doubt it has
arisen from the circumstance of some Hon. Gentlemen
being attributed to merely momentary feelings, and to the
angry sense of some disappointment, more than to any real
depreciation of the character of the Right Hon. Gentleman
in their estimation ; and I do expect that on a little re-
flection, they will soon be willing to confess their mistake,
both as to the results of these measures, and as to all the
observations that have been made on the manner in which
they have been introduced. It is impossible for me to
take leave of this subject without adverting, with feelings
of the highest gratification, to the able assistance the Right
Hon. Gentleman has received from the excellent speech of
Lis Right Hon. Colleague, the Secretary for the Colonies.
I must say, that since I have sat in Parliament I have
never heard a more effective or eloquent speech, and it was
to me a source:of great gratification to hear it from the lips
of a soldier, because I have always had a strong feeling of
regard and friendship towards the body of gentlemen of
that profession, than whom none are more enlightened
or benevolent, nor of any class can it be said more fairly
or truly, that they are men of the world, in the most
honourable sense of the words, and that their experience
makes them more practically acquainted with the affairs of
mankind than other persons, and more calculated for what
they are thought not to be in well qualified for—the Ad=
ministration of the affairs of Nations. The Right Hon.
and Gallant gentleman read, from the ranks of the Army,
a lecture well worthy of the mediation of the Church.—
(Cheers.)—We must, with reference to it, adopt the re-
verse of the old adage—" Gedunt arena toga.". But the
most eloquent and admirable passage of his speech was one
so honourable to his feelings and to his understanding; it
comprises so much argument in so small a compass, and
goes so directly from the heart of the speaker to the heart
of the hearer, that I cannot praise it too highly; it is that
iu which, deprecating the civil dissensions that arise from
the existing state of the law as to religious opinions, the
Right Hon. and Gallant Officer said, " We have no such
regulations in the Army.—(Cheers.)—There we have no
religious distinctions. Catholics and Protestants sleep in
the same tent, march in the same rank, and mount the
same breach together.—(Loud cheers.)—They are only
emulous of performing the save deeds of glory. They
are buried in the same grave, and they rest in the hope of
salvation front the same Redeemer."—(Continued cheers.)
—This eloquent passage, from the lips of a military man,
I will cite as an answer to the senseless cry of " No
Popery ;" and when any sentiments are attributed to
persons which they never uttered, for sonic fraudful and
mischievous purposes, I would have that passage inscribed
in letters of gold, and with it I would enrich the walls of
every cottage in England, and of every cabin in Ireland.
—(Great cheering.)—With respect to the measures of
relief and conciliation themselves, and the Noble Duke
at the head of his Majesty's Government, who has con-
ducted them to their present state, and will, I have no
doubt, guide them finally to a happy issue, I may now
say he is

•' With surpassing glory crowned."

I can only, in common with the rest of my fellow country-
men, who will, I am sure, all be joined in a very, very
short time indeed, in acknowledging how much we owe to
the ability and talent displayed on this important occasion
by the Noble Duke, and who in one accord will render
their thanks for the benefits which all, in a short time,
will perceive, and must approve. I remember a passage
in a great writer of our own country, Harrington, which
recurs to my mind very strongly, with reference to the
formation of the present Administration : " There is in
military men a peculiar capacity to become the leaders of
the Aristocracy, and in the government of States, which
is the peculiar business of gentlemen." This is a striking
illustratioa of the truth of the observation I have already
made—(Cheers.)—The petitions I have to present are
from the Catholics of Ireland, and from the people of the
metropolis, in their favour. But if I speak only of the
Catholics of Ireland, I mean of course, in all the observa-
tions I have made this evening, to apply what I have said
as fully with reference to the Catholics of England, as to
the Catholics of Ireland. If I have not mentioned the
Catholics of England, nobody can forget that they have
always, as a public body and as individuals, been free
from all reproach. Their conduct is above all praise ;
and when they are received back to that place in which
they ought to be in relation to the Constitution, we
shall then have an • united Empire, and this House will
no longer have its time taken up, as it has been for
too long a period, with this question, and the interests
of the country, both foreign and domestic, will receive
more ample consideration, and be promoted in a much
greater degree than they can possibly be at present. Is
it nothing to look forward with the most sanguine expec-
tations as to the effects to be derived from the measures
that have been introduced by his Majesty's Government?
I have this morning had a letter from Ireland communi •
cated to me, the contents of which I will make known to
the House, because I own I had no conception that there
would have :been so speedily an effect so extraordinary.
This letter is from Clonmel, where, it seems, the Quakers
are a considerable body, and were extremely opposed to
the Catholic claims. In this letter, , we haveinforma-
tion that there has been a reconciliation between the
most adverse of those opposed to the Catholics, and that
the work of conciliation is proceeding at a rapid rate.

At this town of Cioninel, fur ezampla, the Quakers lot med
a strong political party against the Catholics, but soon
after the King's Speech on the opening of this Session of
Parliament, several Quakers, respectable merchants in
the town, proposed to the I. ;tilers of the Catholic party,
through their Secretary, that measures should be taken
to reconcile the Catholics to the Quakers, who, it was
stated, would readily aleveion all s!:els hestili•y to the
Catholics. The Catholic leaders nut only read this with
great satisfaction, but they declared that they wished the
reconciliation not to be postponed for a single day, and
they proposed that the parties should meet, and parade the
streets arm in arm together, and thus publicly manifest
their friendly sentiments towards each other. They did so
accordingly, and every body cheered them, and "party
spirit," the letter says in conclusion, "seems suddenly at
an end."—(Cheers.) Why, then, should we not, having
reason, if not experience, for our guide, get further on in
history than we have actually reached, and looking on the
year 1529 retrospectively, and judging by the example of
the States where the principle of the quality of civil rights
has been established without reference to religious opi-•
nions, as it has been in so many countries through
the world, new and old ; why then, I say, should we
not expect with some assurance of certainty, that the
same tranquillising and beneficent effects will be pro-
duced here ? I do hope that those Honourable Gen-
tlemen who entertain what I believe to be very
honest prejudices and opinions, with regard to this
question, will see some reason in our expectations, when
they look to the facts, at home and abroad, to which I have
called their attention; and that they will feel that there is
some ground, at least, for reducing the apprehensions they
suffer as to the success of these measures. I have no doubt
myself that the same good consequences will result here as
in all other countries where the same principle has been
adopted. Look for a moment at France—a country for-
merly hostile to this country, and which used to support a
party connected with the Catholic religion, and endanger-
ing the Protestant Establishments of England. See in
what a different situation now men are placed in that libe-
ral and enlightened country, where all persons, of all reli-
gions, are not merely tolerated, but where Protestant and
Catholic Deputies sit in the smile Chamber, by each others'
side, so freely that it is impossible for any one to learn who
belongs to one sect, and who to another. When we see
the universal peace now prevailing in that country, for-
merly so convulsed with religious quarrels; when we see
all there at rest and in happiness, surely it is not too much
to expect that the same results will follow here—(Cheers.)
I offer up my ardent prayer that it may be so, and so
saying, I express my fervent hope that I may never again
be called upon to say another word on this subject.—
(Cheers).—The Hon. Baronet concluded by moving that
the petitions be brought up.
The petitions were, one from the Roman Catholics of
Ireland, and the other from a large body of the inhabitants
of the Metropolis.
Mr. TRANT censured the eulogium which the Hon.
Baronet had thought proper to pronounce on a military
government.—(" No,. no.")—Certainly the Honourable
Baronet said that circumstances had proved that military
men Were in the whole best suited and calculated to carry
on the Government of the country at the present moment.
So at least he understood the Honourable Baronet, and he
believed his ears had not deceived him. How long the
Hon. Gentleman had been of this opinion he could not
say. Ile believed, however, that the Hon. Member once
held opinions of a different nature. He could only say for
himself, that he was not quite so much enamoured of a
military government as the Hon. Baronet appeared to be.
Lord LEVESON GOWER—I rise to express my en-
tire approbation of all that has been said by the Hon.
Baronet, and my gratification at what he has stated re-
specting what I may almost call the premature reception
of this measure in Ireland. It might have been ex-
pected that its reception on the part of his Majesty's Ro-
man Catholic subjects would have been attended with
something like the intoxication of victory, or the insolence
of triumph.—(Hear, hear.)—By any thing I can learn
from the accounts daily received in the transaction of of-
ficial business with Ireland, I find that the measure has
been received by the Catholics in that calm, and rea-
sonable, and satisfactory way, which does reflect the
greatest honour on the Catholic population, and on that
portion of the King's Protestant subjects who have ad-
vocated their Claims. I believe they have received the
announcement of the intentions of his Majesty's Govern-
ment with a warm but temperate though zealous gratitude
to the Sovereign to whom will belong the singular glory,
in addition to all other brilliant acts of his reign, of con-
summating his fame by the completion of these mea-
sures.—(Cheers.)—lf ever I apprehended, on an occa-
sion like the present, that we should fail in carrying
this measure ; if I ever dreaded that it would one day
come too late for any useful purpose; if ever I was afraid
that the book of the Sybil had been burnt once too
often ; I now consider all my apprehensions unfounded.
With regard to what has been said by the Honourable
Member for Dover as to a Military Government, I confess
that I have followed, and that I do follow, the political
banners of a Noble Duke, in which I have little less confi-
dence than I could, under other circumstances, in follow-
ing his military banners, which never were unfurled but
for victory.—(Cheers.) There may be difficulties attend-
ing the completion of these measures. I will not dwell
on the scenes of the Noble Duke's military story ; nor on
the plains of Assaye, where his first victory was gained ;
nor on the field of Vimiera, where he beat the veteran
troops of France; nor on the lines of Torres Vedras; did
any prospect of glory expand open to that Noble Duke
which teemed with such illustrious achievements as he has
now before him.—(Loud cheers.) If the sound wisdom
and good fortune which have hitherto followed him through
the long history of his splendid life, should be crowned, I
hope not closed, with the glory of accomplishing this mea-
sure, it will, in the comparison, even impair the lustre of
his former renown.—(Great cheering.) If I had one
prayer to utter for myself and those around me, it should
be that I may live to see that day, and happy indeed I shall
be when I do witness it—when the names with which we
have been so long familiarized shall be laid aside, when
liberated Spain and subjugated France shall be raised for
freed and placid Ireland.—(The Noble Lord sat down
amidst general cheering.)
Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN observed, the petition
presented by the Hon. Baronet was signed, as had been
stated, by 8,000 or 9,000 individuals. He knew no-
thing at all of the persons by whom it had been got up, nor
was he aware previous to coming into the House that it
was to be presented this evening. All lie knew was, that
he had seen the place on Cornhill where the petition lay for
signature, he had gone in without being personally known
to the people who superintended the signing of it, and he
observed that every individual who applied for the purpose
ofattaching his signature, was asked where he lived, and
told to put his residence as well as his name to the docu-
ment. This was perfectly fair—there was no trick or ar-
tifice resorted to—he met one gentleman, who, on going
into the place and inquiring the nature of the petition, was
told plainly that it was in favour of the Catholic claims—
no attempt at delusion or deception was made ; and an-
other gentleman who went in by mistake was told the
same, and declined signing it. These circumstances came
under his own observation, and proved that very different
means were resorted to as regarded this petition from
those which were adopted in the case of petitions of a con-
trary tendency. He would not trespass further on the at-
tention of the House at present, but intended to take an-
other opportunity to state some facts and circumstances
that had come within his own knowledge relative to the
artifices resorted to in getting up anti Catholic petitions.
Lord NUGENT, with reference to the subject of a mili-
tary Government, observed, that the Hon. Baronet, the
Member for Westminster, merely said there was nothing in
the character of a military commander to incapacitate him
from looking largely, wisely, and liberally at matters of
state policy. Could the Hon. Member for Dover say
nothing for the labours of the Convention Parliament which
sat in 1655, and was happily the means of introducing into
England the great soldier who afterwards conducted our
Government ? Could he see in the exertions of that Par-
liament nothing but an effort to introduce a military govern-
ment ?—(Hear.)—lf the Hon. Member for Dover could
see no distinction between the Hon. Baronet's just eulogium
of the Duke of Wellington's Administration, and an ap-
proval of the principle of a military Government, it was
not the fault of the Hon. Baronet, but of the Hon. Member
alhßani
tamdi
rvosehenel
etfa.otl
atnitl-I:dejee t
Ihvreoe
tranquillizingujNo
nidoc
sbe d at
Noble
fL t Lord,
rtadh:ec
etoehffuveeincdstterenyoec.fre
Secretary
ttalG,offeredyso d fgogri
which he sincerely trusted would remove ther.ebaalnatrnettmliamleneosities
thatad timeorrnee
friends of this measure might not be deceived as to its ex-
pected consequences. He trusted and believed that they
would prove right in their anticipations.
Mr. C. PALLMER had one observation to make with
reference to an assertion made by time Hon. Baronet as to
the mode of getting up anti-Catholic petitions. He was
ready to admit that a large proportion of the petitions
might have been signed by individuals urged on by their
fears and feelings, and not easily capable of being influenced
by argument. Bnt he wished to exclude from this con-
clusion, the presumption, supposing the arts complained
of by the Hon. Baronet to have been used, that the larger
portion of the petitions were the consequences of them.
He was not then going to follow the Hon. Baronet into
the distinction which lie had drawn between the sentiments
entertained by the intelligent part of the community and
the opinions of more uninstructed persons upon this ques-

thin. Of this he felt certain, that, if the question wcre to
he th•l'l:?Cd between the Hon. Baronvt and hint by nutnbers
wonld be detcrmintll in his (Mr. PaHiner's) favour. He
defied any lion. Gentleman opposite to he more rejoiced
than be titould be if the measure were to be generally re-
ceived with the cordiality, and finally attended by the
tranquillity, security, and advantage which its authors ap-
rared to expect from it.
The two petitions, which purported to he those of cet -
tain Irish Catholics, and of 8,000 Protestant inhabitants,
householders, and wale adults of London, Westminster,
and their vicinity, and prayed for the equal admission of
Roman Catholics to civil privileges, were then read, laid on
the table, and ordered to be printed.

Petitions to the same ere t were presented by Mr. A.
Stewart, from Kilrea, in the county of Londonderry; by
Mr. Lamb, limn a place (we believe)in the neighbourhood
of Dangarvon ; by Mr. asthope, from the Protestant
Dissenters of Hainsworth, Gloucestershire; by Sir W.
Ingilby, from Long Sutton, in the county of Lincoln;
and by Sir H. Parnell, from Maryborougb, Stradballv,
and two other places in Ireland.—They were ordered to be
printed.
Petitions against the Roman Catholic claims were pre-
sented from the Protestant Dissenters of Plymouth, from
Irvington, Walharopton, and another place, by Mr. I3as.
taid ; from a parish in Northamptonshire, by Mr. eig-
son ; from Rushden, in the same enunty, by Mr. Cart_
wright ; from Midillesham, in the canity of Suffolk,
Mr. Trant ; from Cannon, in the county of S.-dop, by
Lord Uxbridge ; from Clonfert, in the county of Galway.
and Newcastle, in the county of Limerick; and als9 from
certain Noblemen, Gentlemen, Clergy, and Freeholders of
the county of Clare, by Lord Tullamore ; and from a place
in Monmouthshire, by Lord Granville Somerset.
They were ordered to be printed.
Mr. Secretary PEEL presented the petition of the silk-
throwsters, praying for further protection to the home
manufacturers. The Right Hon. Member also said, he
had been charged to present a variety of petitions, some
against further concessions to the Roman Catholics—
namely, the petition of the clergy of Cloaca and Kil-
laloe, from the clergy of the diocese of Clonfcrt. He had
also a petition from the inhabitants of Norton-on-the
Moors, and from Chichester, and a parish in the county
of Forfar, in favour of the meditated concession. He had
also several petitions to present from the Catholics of
Longford, in the county of Tyrone, of Tullamore, of
Killmachrone, in the county of Galway, and a parish in
Monaghan, in favour of the meditated concessions to the
Catholics. He could not but remark, that the tone of
these petitions from the Roman Catholic parishes of Ire-
land were undoubted indications that they were satisfied
with the terms on which they understood the arrangements
now in progress were to be made.—(Hear.)—He had not,
he acknowledged, expected to have found those terms
would have given so much satisfaction to the Catholic
body ; but he had been greatly disappointed in finding
there was so strong a disposition, both on the part of both
Catholics and Protestants, to bring their differences to a
final conclusion, and aid his Majesty's Ministers in the
adjustment of a question so fraught hitherto with difficul-
ties and excitement.