The Sun.
London, England, 1842-04-20 00:00:00

CORN-LAWS.

- . Lord BROUGHAM said, that in order to give
their Lordships an opportunity of pronouncing their
opinion on the eutire merits of this question, he would
give notice, , that When the resolution of his
Noble Friend (Viscount Melbourne) was disposed of
eh e ~vould propose the following resolutions, which referred
to, the absolute question of the merits of duties upon
importation altogether. It appeared to, him that those
- slim .resolutions, taken one after another, would give
• their Lordships an opportunity of . expressing their
eminions clearly upon the whole merits of that most im-
ien-tant branch of the question, namely, whether or not
' there ought to be any duties imposed on the importation
of corn. The first resolution was—" That no duty ought to
-I;eimposed upon the importation of foreign corn for the
r,,,leoose of protecting the agriculturist by taxing the
„int i.oduetion of food." Secend: " That no duty ought to
', .assn, imposed on the importation of foreign corn
firer -I.le purpose of regulating the trade, by taxing the
eiuraeeduction of food." Third : "That no duty ought to
. "Ibe 'imposed on the importation of foreign corn, for the
• "pet'easte of raising the revenue, by taxing the introduce
ti to of food."
I ,• eel MELBOURNE presented a petition from a num-
lter 01' farmers in the county of Norfolk, against a gradu-
, .li eel iraie of duty on the importation ofcorn and flour, and
.in teeeeurof a fixed duty. The Noble Lord then said that
,in eti!_ttnitting to their Lordships the resolution of which
,lie hedegiven notice, and. which if adopted as a substan-
tive :motion, would have the same effect as if adopted
. a" tot amendment, he, considering. that the subject of
-the Cern-laws had beers so recently discussed in every
pens hie shape, thought it would be unpardonable
in hint, in pressing his own views on their Lordships, if
he were to ,state more than would be necessary to explain
his own conduct, or than would be likely to affect the
.ultiteate decision of their Lordships. He declared that in
brining forward his measure he meant to be as calm and
• intimrtial as he could he, avoiding all party allusions and
criminatory observations.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble
Nord. who followed his Noble Friend in his speech of
last night, divided the subject into two parts ; the first
was whether it was absolutely necessary that there should
be a duty 'on the importation of foreign corn, and if it
were, secondly, how this regulation should be imposed.
Strictly speaking, it was only with the second
part. he should have to deal. To this his resolution was
confined. At the same time he would make a few obser-
vation: for his own vindication on the general question.
His Noble Frienn's resolutions would lay open the whole
question, so deeply interesting to all classes of the commu-
nity, whether it was necessary to impose a duty on foreign
corn or whether it should be left entirely free for impor-
tation for consumption from all parts of the world. He had
not always been so much as many others favourable to an
immediate and decided application of this latter principle
in the present circumstances of the world. He thought
that it would have been a far more desirable arrangement
for the human race if every nation employed itself upon
those productions, • for which the soil and climate of
the land in ithich it was settled were best fitted,
and received its supply of other productions
front the countries to which they were natural. But
whilst ' all reason and the interests of mankind.
were on that side, all usage, all custom, all' pre-
jtulices, "all feelings, with few exceptions, were
en the other—:(ll6er, hear)—and thus it happened, that
although the principles of free trade were generally ad-
mitted, the opposite principles had a strong hold upon
the public mind. Although many were to be found willing
enough to sign petitions on the general principle,
yet if you came to speak to any person about taking
'off a duty, you would find that they considered the
question only with regard to the interest of the producer.
•--(Hear, hear,) So strong was the feeling upon that
subject, that he certainly was not prepared to adopt
the resolutions proposed by his Noble and Learned
Friend.— (Hear, hear.) Yet he did not think that the
ground of exclusive burdens, said to he borne by the
agriculturists, had great solidity. He did not say
• - whether those burdens existed or not, but he said, if
• - they existed, they ought to be remedied in a direct
manner, and not by maintaining a system of Corn-laws
which was said to inflict so much suffering,
and privation on the rest of the community.
He owned he did not think that that was a ground of
any great weight or force. It would not, perhaps, be in-
applicable to g'' back to ancient history ; if they looked
to Athens and Rome they would find that they depended
oil foreign corn. And it had been said by a great orator
in .‘ ihens, ".Of all mankind, we the flout rely on fort•ign
corn." He mentioned this to show that all the greatness
- of these countries was to be.ascribed to their dependence on
foreign core. But, supposing that the great wants of
thi.-. eonntry, its greatly increasing population, its grow-
it,. A ant, should occasion a much larger importation of
;et.eign corn necessary than they hall hitherto required,
the t would be more truly described as rendering foreign
..- , . nations dependent on us, than we upon them.—
.. , Hetet,. hear.) The tradesman was. a good deal
“ y 77ii-v ; re dependent on the customer . than the
on,t,,tner on the tradesman, provided he
.could pay.—
„leitellear.) He should say that nothing could tend in a
';""gr-tetter degree than a commercial dependence, as of
-"u .'M'r and seller, to prevent war in the first instance, to
t,'-',4"istftWet them- whilst engaged in it, and to bring it to a
' 44 ll.(fY, conclit iitit. They had been asked why they were
efts opo ' tins Bill—why, he should be for it at once if he
k
4, , ; 9,Si ; place any confidence in what his Noble Friend
said last night.—(Bear, hear.) He should be for it
,Af be could agree with his Noble Friend, that the supply
tiee. efiewl,l ,b, so inconsiderable as to be of no use to the
teeesiteteefique—(Hear.) His Noble Friend said, that a small
,Inantity would destroy home agriculture, and then our
f*atrverA w, mild not be able to supply the people. He (Lord
, ',1,-) tented his fears to be not that they should send in too
linty, but a great deal too much. lie had read a good
• deal on Ode sttbject. He had perused many pamphlets
and documents, and had heard many argument~.
" He could not find any sufficient foundation for that opi-
nion. The Noble Lord had delivered a very able
urgument to show that the poorer lands in this
country would be thrown out of cultivation ; but
the question was, how much corn could foreign countries
send, end at what price could they send it ? and he be-
tioved that that could be only ascertained by experi-
ment.—(Hear, hear.) They could not remove all pro-
tection without giving a shock ' to public opinion,
and he u'as therefore against such a mea-
sure. The question, then, was to regulate
that protection. And he had no question whatever in
his mind that the best course to adopt on the subject was
to impose a fixed duty, winch would give certainty to
trade, and remove the restrictions that impede it :
it would avoid all the frauds in the taking of the ace-
l'ages. Great discontent prevailed on the subject. If
frauds existed, a fixed duty would put an end to them ;
and if they did not exist it would do what was equally
advantageous, for it would put an end to the injurious
opinions and suspicions that prevailed on the subject.
It would give that stability and certainty, which
could not exist under the present law. But it was
said that a fixed duty could not be maintained.
He keciv very well that great efforts might be made
to inft!me the public mind on the question ; but
he behevvd that there would be no difficulty in
maintatuine the system which had been so long
maintained. In his resohniott he had not stated any
amount of duty. All that he called on their Lerdships
to de was to a affirm a principle. He recommended the
• I,e,peeition because he thought it would prevent fraud.
i!e made his motion with referenee to the past, with
iii,,yit.,tion ti; t;ge present, and with respect to the
fut:ire. with reference to tilt, past, in• justification of
th:- :iovernment which 'brought the proposition—with
r,;;:reet et
to the Imeent, because he conceived it the
fist course to be adopted, though he had little taupe of
being able to induce their Lordships to adopt it—amid
V. Ltl- respect to the future, in the perfect confidence that
it eould one day be adopted, and become the law of this
ntry.
' - 'he Earl of RIPON said that .from .the manner in
wnieli the Noble Lord had introduced his measure, than
which nothing could'be more fair or candid, it would not
be necessury tor. Ike
_GI. Noble Earl) to address their
1,, •,islaps at any length; but he must "ericreavour to irn-
ixe, it oa the House that it would be 'most unwise in

their Lordships to accede to the proposition of the No-
ble Viscount. They had last night rejected measures
intended to stop the progresS' of the present Bill, and
they had voted for the second reading of it ; but this
proposition would call upon them to rescind that resolu-
tion, and to adopt a new principle for regulating the
trade in corn, without having received from the Noble
Lord a glimmering how his principle was to be carried
into effect.—(Hear, hear.) All parties consideried it
necessary to come to some conclusion or other on this
subject. If the proposal of his Noble Friend were
adopted, and the Bill were rejected, the question would
be left as it was, and it could not be supposed
that in the course of the present session they would be
in a condition to effect an alteration of the law.—(Hear.)
1 If the proposition of his Noble Friend were adopted, no
practical result would be obtained.—(Hear.) But he
would not put his opposition to that proposition upon
any ground of convenience. He objected to it on prin-
ciple. It would not effect the object which his No le
Friend contemplated ; but that great difficulty would e
found in its operation He thought it would aggrav to
the evils of the country, and render them more difficelt
to manage. He thought the evils would counterbalanbe
any imaginable advantage(Hear, hear.) I- is
Noble Friend declined to enter into detai s,
or state any specific scheme, further than tl t
he would adhere to the scheme proposed by his olfm
1 Government last year, namely, a duty of Bs. per quarter.
His Noble Friend had argued his case very well. He
had stated a great number of good names, but he hitd
thrown overboard also some equally good reasons.;—
(Hear, hear.) . He had stated his reasons against free
trade, and therefore he proposed a plan on the prineilie
of protection.—(Hear, hear.) But he had not told tlie
House in what way his duty of Bs. would give the ne-
cessary protection.—(Hear.) To propose a duty, whieh
was not sufficient to the protection which was thought ip-
dispensably necessary,would only deceive those for whom
the protection was intended, and would do no good to t tie
restof the community. In the present state of things gs.
would be no protection.—(Hear, hear.) Whatever
might be the objections to a prohibitous duty, if thete
was any protection at all, it must beat some point hr
other a prohibitory duty.—(Hear, hear.) If the prite
at which foreign corn could be imported into thiscount y
on an average of years was 405., and if the remunerati g
price should be between 565. and 605., and his Nob e
Friend had not said anything to the contrary, it was
perfectly msnifest that the duty of Bs. would be no pr -
tection at all—(Hear, hear)—and it would be nothitt g
more than a delusion to imagine the contrary. B t
there was another objection to this measure in his mi d
which was impassable—lie did not deny that the si -
plicity and uniformity of its operations would be a r -
r,
commendation, but what was that when the fu d
of the people was concerned ? Protection was r -
quired in this country when the price was very lo ,
but at that time this measure would afford not
His Noble . Friend said that there was something
exceedingly regular and advantageous to the ordinary
operations of commerce under the fixed duty, which d d
not apply-to the graduated scale. If the protection we e
sufficient, it must be- such as to give a remunerati g
price. The Noble Viscount, who contended for a fix d
duty, must adMit that remuneration was one of the el -
ments of the plan, but who is to say what is a remunera tit g
price ? He (Lord R) never contended for the Corn-law n
that ground, but .to keep out the foreigner when t e
price was low.—(Hear, hear.) But when the price ro , ,
and made a fixed ditty dangerous, the Noble Viscount
would rely on the good sense of the country not to o -
ject to a fixed duty on that -account, in consequence ff
the advantages it would confer when the price was lo v.
But would it not be imprudent to rely on anything )f
the kind ?—(Hear, hear.) He did not even gi .e
them a mystic view of the mode by which he w s
prepared to meet the case of a rise in price.—(He. r,
hear.) His Noble Friend led him to anticip' e
that some measure would then be necessary, but tlt n
the fixed duty vanished, and therefore the essential pri -
ciple of a fixed duty was not there. His Noble Frie d
let out that, if circumstances were favourable, and t e
agricultural interest a little more agreeable, a little mo e
might be given—it might be 12s. or 14s.
Viscount MELBOURNE—I mentioned no sum. I
' The Earl of RIPON—That showed the ingenuity of the
' Noble Lord—(Hear, hear, and laughter)—and that wits
the reason they ought
.not to go with him. But whht
was to be done when the prices rose ? Was a power o
be given to the Government ; and if so, might not Gp-
vernments differ in their opinions on the subject ? Whitt
was the objection to the graduated scale ? It was the
great rapidity with which the duty changed, and the
consequent inducement to parties to have recourse 'to
undue means of influencing the averages. But in the
case of a fixed duty, the charge would be more rapid.
It would be from nothing to Bs., and from Bs. to
nothing, and there would be the greatest uncer-
tainty from beginning to end. There fell from his
Noble Friend, a word which made him (the Earl !of
Ripon) feel that he did not look on .his proposition as
one that he could maintain inviolate. Alluding to the
various considerations that led him to object to the
motion of his Noble and Learned Friend, the Noble
Viscount (Melbourne) said that the situation of things
now would not warrant the absence of all protection.
The Earl of CLARENI)ON was glad to find that the
great and increasing evils of the Corn-law system were
now generally admitted. He would support the motiim
of his Noble Friend (Lord Melbourne), but in doing so
he wished, in reference to the Noble Earl who had just
sat down, to congratulate the House and the. conntry on
the unanimity which almost prevailed as to the neces-
sity of a change. He wished he c_itlil also congratu-
late the Noble Earl (Ripon) on the measures he had in-
troduced. He was far from agreeing with his Nettle
Friend (Earl Stanhope) that the passing of the present
Bill would produce a revolution to which the horrors of
the French Revolution were but milk and water-
- (Hear, hear, from Lord Stanhope, and general laugh-
ter)—for certainly this measure would neither deprive
the agriculturists of the protection they now enjoyed,
nor abate a single evil of the present system.=--(Hear;
hear, hear.) Still he rejoiced to see the measure intro-
- duced, because it was an abandonment of the position the
party opposite had long held, and soon they would he
driven to another point. The present law had so far
disappointed its framers, that 2,000,000 or 3,000,000 of
the population of this country had under this measure
become dependent on foreign food. Did we not depend
upon foreign nations for the fifty milllions of manufac-
tures which they took from us, and by which five mil-
lions of our population were maintained ?—(Hear, hear.)
How could we disrense with our dependence upon
foreign nations for our supply of iron, flax, cotton, and the
rest ? How could we maintain our navy unless we had
commerce with all the nations of the world ?—(Hear.)
But yet when it was sought to extend that commerce
and at the same time to augment the food of the people,
—Parliament was told that we ought not to be depOi-
dent on foreign countries.—(Cheers.) But the true Way
to be independent of particular nations was to have coin- ,
mercial relations with them all.—(Hear, hear.) By that
means we should have a steady and constant course Of
trade, and avoid that draining of the gold, and derange-
ment of the monetary system, which only three years ago
brought the Bank of England to the verge of insolvency,
from which it was saved mainly by the assistance afforded
by the Bank of France.—(Hear, hear.) Look again
to the result of mutual dependence, as it was shown
in the late revolt in Canada, when swarms ,:f
American citizens were gathered upon the shores
of the colony, and the press and the people wire
violent in their animosity to the country, whilst the snore
prndent Government was impatient to restrain theta.—
(Hear, hear.) What was it that then prevented war ?
(Hear, hear.) It was the 15 millions of raw prodlice
which we took from America, and the still greater quan-
tity of manufactures which we sent there. This was an
illustration of what his Noble Friend had said. There
was no country with which we could carry on so great
an amount of trade as the United States, and none with
which the object • of increasing it could be obtairte:l,
whilst they were yet in our power, whilst, in short, they
were mutually dependent on each other, and before !we
compelled them, as we did the Germans 20 years ago; to
turn manufacturers. We excluded ourselves from the
supply from America in the same way as the Southern
States. His Noble Friend said that they could not get
any supply from America ; the reason was becauselwe
closed our markets to them ; they were anxious to send
it to us, and if our markets were opened, there was
every reason to believe that we should have a great supply
from that quarter.—(Hear, hear.) They (the Ameri-
cans) complained of our laws, and no wonder, when,' as
had been the case, the duty, in the course of five weeks,
varied from 225. Bd. to Is. He thought such an example
as that was a striking instance of the injurious effects of
the sliding scale, and justified the Americans in the com-
plaints they made against us: If America adopted a
sliding scale with regard to cotton, the consequence
would be that their trae with America would cease.—
(Hear.)
And if the principle of a sliding scale was hurt-
fbl with regard to countries at a distance, it would also
be hurtful with regard to countries nearer home, because -
the principle of a sliding scale was to destroy all regular
trade. The demand was unexpected when it was made,
and they could not suppose that when it was made a cur-
- responding demand would be made for their goods. An-
other evil of the sliding scale was, that the markets of
foreign countries were not prepared to supply their de-
mand, and consequently an artificial rise of prices was
occasioned in those foreign countries.-(Hear, hear.) He
did not suppose that the Government brought in the Bill
for the sake of occasional revision of the law as
the Noble Lord had said last night, were they not
holding out a premium to continued agitation.(Hcar.)
What Mr. Alexander Baring and Mr. Iluskisson said
on the subject ought not to be lost sight of, who said
that the Corn-laws were intimately connected with their
manufactures and commerce. Was it not most absurd
to seek, by means of legislative enactments, to fix.the
price of food—a subject which was above all such at-
tempts ?—(Cheers.) He had no hesitation in avowing
himself opposed to all protection as a system. He de-
sired, indeed, to see duty levied for the purposes of
revenue. Last year he had given his coidial support
to the measure proposed by the late Government, be
cause he thought it would greatly benefit the producer
and the consumer. As to the protection of the Bs. duty,
when they took into consideration that the average duiv
on corn for the last thirteen years was about 55. 6d., it
must be evident to all that that duty was quite sufficient.
He compared the proposition of the Bs. duty last year
to the demand that was made in former years for the
disfranchisement of the rotten boroughs. If that de-
the Reform Bill might
mh
aavned bbeaedn lboenegn acrorme
sptlei
de d.
wSiot,b,if the Bs. duty were ac-
cepted, the establishment of free trade in corn would be
postponed for many years. Could the landlords say as
much of the present Bill?—(Cheers.) Could they doubt
that the whole protective system bad now received its
ueath-blow?—(Cheers.) Would not the next concession
we should soon most assuredly be called upon to make,
place the farmers in a much worse condition than if they .
bad a;cepted the Bs. fixed duty ? Many persons, speak-
ing of the distress of the country, attributed it to the
failure of American Banks and other Call...es: The causes
were the vigorous competition to our iiiiihnitfactures that
-had sprung up in Switzerland, • Germany, the United

States, and other countries. To that was to be attri-
buted the active competition with which we.'were met.
and the spirit of hostility which was engendered by our
own system.—(Hear, hear.) It was only by prompt,
and vigorous, and wise measures, that the future could
give to agriculture an adequate and steady protection. He
supported the proposition of his Noble Friend (Lord
Melbourne). (The Noble Lord sat down amidst much
cheering.)
The Earl of WICKLOW said, that in the debate of
last night, he by no means concurred in the arguments
of some of those Noble Lords with whom he voted. Ont.
Noble Lord said that he voted for the measure solely of
the ground that it would not have a tendency to reduce
prices. If that had been his (Lord Wicklow's) opinion.
he would not support the measure—(Hear)—for he
thought that no change of the law ought to be math
which could be without effect.—(Hear.) The opinion
of the country was, tkat this measure would reduce
the price of food. £hat hope had been held out
to the people, and he should be sorry to see that
hope disappointed. Neither did he support it on
the ground that it would be permanent, but, on the con-
trary, that it would tend to ulterior measures—(Cheers)
—because he thought it a mode by which the public
would be prepared. for greater changes—to prepare the
agriculturists of this country for greater changes—that
this law was calculated to do good.—(Hear, hear.) They
first had a law introduced to regulate the price at 80s.
or 90s. ; then that was reduced ; but the agriculturists
of this country were in as flourishing a condition as
ever.—(Hear.) He did not think this Bill at all inter•
fered with the prosperity of agriculture. But if the argu-
ments of his Noble Friends on his side of the House did.
not operate on his mind in giving his vote last night, he
confessed that the Noble Baron from Essex said some-
thing relative to taxes borne by the land which should
guide him in his vote. He (Lord Wicklow) said
that the taxes of this country had no con-
cern in this matter. They were paid by the wealth
of the country, and by increasing that wealth
by means of commerce and manufactures the burdens ce
taxation would not be so grievous. If the agriculturists
paid the taxes, then, indeed, there would be something
in the observation which had fallen from the Noble
Baronet—but 'that was not so. He (Lord Wicklow)
agreed with the Noble Viscount that the burdens of land
could not be much affected. He would now advert to
the difference between a sliding scale and a fixed duty,
or as his Noble Friend (Lord Stanhope) had called it.
the difference between the guillotine and the hatchet.—
(Laughter.) His Noble Friend said that there was no
difference ; but in his (Lord Wicklow's) opinion there
was a very. great difference.—(Laughter.) He would
much prefer the well-finished, well-wrought, well-con-
sidered instrumen,t to the rude, unfashioned one, taken
up at the moment of execution, and perhaps taken up by
the executioner at the moment rather to defend himself
than to apply it to its legitimate purpose.—(Laughter.)
If the object of a fixed duty was to increase commerce and
manufactures, he believed it would be better than a
sliding scale.—(Opposition cheers.) Other nations:
would know better the grounds on which they were
trading, and they would know what price they were to
pay.—(Cheers from the same quarter.) Ho thought the
trade would be more fixed and certain ; but the
Noble Viscount having declared that the object of
a fixed duty was to protect agriculture, he thought
that object would be better secured by the Bill of his
Noble Friend. He would now only allude to the circum-
stances of Ireland. He heard many persons declare that,
sere it not for Ireland, they would be disposed to vote
for a fixed duty, but that Ireland being so peculiarly cir-
cumstanced, they would, for her sake, vote to maintain
the Corn-law. If he thought that the proposed altera-
tions tended to injure the interest of that country, he
would feel bound, circumstanced as he was a ith regard
to it, but especially on account of the conduct pursued
towards it by this country—not lately, but at a former
critical period of her history—he would feel bound to
oppose it. Had Ireland been protected and fostered by
their predecessors, she would now be a source of wealth
and credit to England, instead of a mill-stone around her
neck. He should, therefore, feel bound to oppose those
alterations if they tended to injure the interest of that
country; but if there was any part of the empire which
should feel less than another any distress from the pro-
posed measure, that part was Ireland. The Noble and
Learned Lord opposite, yesterday alluded to the decrease
in the exports of wheat from that country, and he
argued from that an improvement in the condition of the
people. He feared that such was not the case. For the
last three years, there were peculiarly bad harvests in
Ireland, and scarcely any wheat was raised that was fit
for exportation. It therefore became necessary to apply
it to the other uses—the use of the distiller and brewer.
The greater consumption of wheat in Ireland had been
principally caused by bad harvests ; for then the wheat,
being unfit for exportation, was sold very cheaply to the
people. He hoped that the people would get a taste for
wheat ; but he thought the climate of Ireland not fit
for wheat, while it was admirably adapted for oats ;
therefore, while the protection on wheat was lowered,
that on oats ought to be higher. He was glad of the
change made by the tariff as to foreign cattle. What-
ever effect the change would produce—and he only
feared, that in respect to cattle, it would not be
much—still, it would so far serve as an inducement
to the people of Ireland to apply themselves to the
cultivation of corn. It might be true that the nations of
the Continent would not be able to import much cattle
into this country. Yet there would be this advantage,
that the measure, by raising the price of food on the
Continent, would place the artisans of this country on a
par with their Continental rivals. For these reasons he
had last night given his vote for the measure of the
Government, and would now vote against the proposi •
ition of the Noble. Lord opposite.
Lord VIVIAN said, he had endeavoured to divest
himself of all party feelings in coming to the consideration of
this question ; and when a Member of the other House, he had
supported, in opposition to the wishes of his constituents, the
same opinions which should on this occasion govern his vote.
His profession as a soldier had prevented him, until recently.,
from giving the question of protective duties his consideration ;
. but when he did come to examine the subject, he was con-
vinced that protective duties were of little advantage to the
protected class, and a great disadvantage to the public.
( Hear, hear.) In a country like this, where the population
was daily increasing, and the demand for food and labour also
increasing, he thought the proposed legislation most unjust,
and he thought it better to fix a minimum of labour than a
minimum of food.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord proved
last night that they had not to fear any great importation of
foreign corn. During one hundred and eighty years,
in which this subject had been legislated upon, thirty-eight
Acts of Parliament had been passed, and yet no satisfactory
conclusion had been come to ; with this view, he thought that if
they admitted foreign corn free of duty, it might set those
matters at rest, and restore the quiet and tranquillity of the
country. He was most anxious that this should be settled ;
and he should, therefore, be glad to enter into such a compro-
mise as a fixed duty. e knew there was a feeling throughou,
this country, that the agriculturists were antiching themselves
by these laws, to the detriment of the other classes. He (Lord
Vivian) did not think so. He agreed with the observations in
an excellent pamphlet, called," Corn and Currency," written
by the Right Hon. Gentleman at the head of the Home .)e-
-partment, that the commerce and agriculture of this country
were so dovetailed together, so linked and bound up in one an-
other, so connected, that they could not be separated. He ac-
knowledged that the agriculturist was the best customer of the
manufacturer, arid that, if agriculture suffered, manufactures
must suffer with it ; but when he saw that the manu'acturer
was not able to compete with the foreigner, and that the Corn-
laws were partly the cause, he considered that agriculture must
itself suffer. He thought that the great cause of the present
difficulties were to be attributed both to agriculturists and manu-
facturers, who sought t t keep up war prices after the war had
ceased. He was rejoiced at the alteration made in the tariff,
but he compained that more was not done ; but he thought
there was an inconsistency in imposing an Income-tax, which
was the most obnoxious and disagreeable tax that could be
imposed, while the corn and sugar monopolies were nut
touched. He would say ore word before he sat down with re-
spect to being able to maintain a fixed duty ; the very argu-
ment showed that there was little danger that prices could get
up. It reminded him of an anecdote in which he was con-
! cerned. An officer met him one day in the street, and said he
was glad that he was not present at a certain battle, because he
' would have been killed, and when he (Lord Vivian) asked how
' he knew that, he answered that his successor was killed.—
' (Laughter.) He rejoiced that some progress was to be made
in free trade, and he hoped they would not stop at where they
now were. To borrow the language of a Noble Friend of his
(Lord Palmerston) in the other House, the ground had been
broken, the outworks' had been forced, and they would soon
see the giant commerce set free.
The Duke of CLEVELAND addressed their Lordships
solely from a paramount sense of duty. He very much feared
from the silent vote he had given last night, if he did not ex-
plain his views on the present occasion, his conduct would be
liable to misconception. The total repeal of protecting duties
he hoped he should never live to see. He did -not oppose the
present Bill as regarded wheat, but he thoUght a very uncalled-
for reduction had been made of the'protection on oats.—( Hear
hear.) If that large importation of wheat should take place
which aas anticipated, he thought it would be most injurious,
and the same observation would apply to barley. They
must all bow to the aspect of affairs ; they all knew
the great outcry which was raised for change, and
with regard to wheat, if they must have made a
change at all, he did not think they could hetet, made lc ss change ;
and though he condemned the alterations on barley and oats,
still, taking the measure as a whole, he considered it his duty
to vote f the' second reading of the Bill, and he was most
anxious that it should pass into a law. But notwithstanding all
that bad been said, be was much staggered at the finality of this
Bill.—( Hear.) He must say that he was a good deal astonished
at what bad fallen from the Noble Earl, who said that nothing;
could be considered a measure of finality excepting the laws of
the Medes and Persians. He (the Duke of Cleveland) would
vote for the present measure with a firm conviction that it would
never be altered in his lifetime. With resrect to a fixed
duty, he thought, as a measure of finance, it would be
more productive than a sliding scale; but as a
measure of protection, it would be totally ineffective; and
therefore, whether it was a high duty or a low duty he should
feel it his duty to oppnse it.—( Hear and Laughter. )
The Earl of RIPCN had only meant to say, that no
law which might be passed could be considered umalterable, but
that he hoped the present measure would not be speedily
altered. He should have thought that the minister who brought
forward the Reform Bill, and said thatit was a final measure,
might very well have allowed this to be considered a final mea-
sure—( Hear)—and being convinced that it would be betty r
far the country it it never should be changed, he was deter-
mined, that so far as it lay with him, never should be changed.
The Earl of ROSEBERRY:opposed the Bill. It• must be
utterly unsatisfactory to the farmers or the public at large. It
was knosn that it could not last, and as a preparatory plan it
was bad. He thought a fixed duty would be more satisfactoty
than any other, because he thought the price would never rise
to a ruinous amount—because it would put an end to speculation
—because it would lessen the demand for bullion—and, there-
fore, keep the currency more regular, which was the cause of
the i.eriodical distress of the country, and because the profits
now made by the speculation would go to benefit the consumer.
—(Hear, hear.) If they thought a fixed duty of Bs. too low-,
they might lay
on a duty of IN. per quarter, and gradually
lessen it every year by is. With respect to the proposed
would
d not ( t
ion
trouble otfhe their towns
Lordsh at p
sliding scale he objected to the " rests" in it, and
tothe addition
toip the
eresepnrt withese hisn umber.
Ifs N‘u
objec-
tion as to the medium point, but as to the resting point, he
considered them wholly illusory ; he thought it was absurd to
suppose that in the ascending scale it would be possible to stop
at IBs., or in the descending scale at 65., when, at those very
points, it would be' the interest of the speeulator, as well as
clearly in his power, to run the duty up at one point, and to
bring it down tio nothing from the lower. He had always been
favourable to the impost of a fixed duty-on cora. He