The Sun.
London, England, 1842-05-02 00:00:00

Learned Gentleman (Mr. Thesiger) to discharge the witness That had arisen from the peculiar state of the circumstances
from custody. With regard to the legality or illegality of the arising from the short session of Parliament. This had given
summons, it was admitted by the House, that if the summons rise to a serious question, and when the warrant was read at
was not legal, it was because there was a defect in the law, the table, he (the Solicitor-General) asked the Speaker whether
and whether the summons was legal or not when the witness that was a regular warrant? At the time he put that guess.
had the document in his possession at the time he was called tion, he was not aware that there were any other warrants
upon to attend a Committee, the House would do of a similar description, but he considered it to
right in visiting the individual with its displeasure. be a mistake of the parties in the peculiar
He would not advert to the conduct of the witness before the case. Now that the question had been moved, it became a
Committee ; he had no right to do so; but looking at the evi- serious matter as to how that question was to be settled. He
dense which he had given at the bar, it appeared to him (Sir agreed that the opinion of lawyers given in that Ilouse could
G. Grey) to amount to this, that he had possession of thee do- not be considered as satisfactory. He believed that nu direct
cuments—that he knew they would be wanted—and tHat be legislative power was given to the Speaker to issue his warrant.
had incautiously parted with them : but since the witness had It was issued as care ot the privileges of the House of Commits,
stated that he was willing to make inquiries as to the individual and therefore it semi= authority derived from the House, and
by whom he bad sent these documents to Captain Ward, and as not held by the Speaker independent of it. Under such cm-
there was no suspicion that he had absconded, he thought cumstances, the question was, whether any authority given by
it just, as he had been kept in confinement for three , the House was Oct put an end to by the termination of the
days, that lie should now be discharged—( Hear, hear)— session. There was great doubt upon the subject, and such
but still liable to be called before the Committee, still being being the case, he thought the patty in custody ought to
bound to exert himself for the recovery of these papers, have the benefit of that doubt. After the party
and bound to exonerate himself before the Commit- ' was discharged, they could then discuss the matter calmly, and
tee, and, it might be, hereafter before the House, deal with it as they should think fit. For his own part, he
from the charge of having knowingly got rid of the thought that all these subjects would be better decided by a
papers. If the motion for his discharge was rested tribunal out of the House, and he had come down titth a deter--
upon thcee grounds, and not upon the ground of the mination to move for a Committee to iteasere into ti e subject.
illegality of the warrant, he would consent to it. • He did not say that this question should be removed altogether
Ile would not consent to declare that warrant illegal; but from the House, but he thought it right certainly to remove it
he would, as graie doubts seemed to be entertained on the from the body of the House, and that every matter :heal
subject, suggest that some course ought to be adopted be decided by the Committee amenntt d to try
analogous to the one he had pointed out tor .I it. He Vk isheu to express his entire eoneurrehee
the purpose of eettino the question at rest.—(Hear.) I in what had fallen from his Right Hon. Fe iend, and if that
tier. FERRAND would not have trespassed 'upon 1 House consented to the discharge of the weness, he should give
the House, had it not' been for the strong language Lotice—and he would now give notice, that on Monday next
that had been used by Hon. Gentleman opposite.—( Cheers ) he should mote tnat a Select Committee be apeoihted to
'1 he Speaker last night bast told him (elm Ferra..d) tl at inquire into the practice of the House with regard to the
he was cu' of order ice milting use of the language which he summoning of witnesses to the Bar ot the House, and to report
had used, and he had immeciately withdrawn that expres- what alterations in the present law were requisite.
sion.—( Hear, hear.) lie had wished to call the atten- Sir T. X% ILhiE said, he apprehended that ne feeling could
tion of the House to the fact that the Chairman of the exist in the House but that of perfect cencuirenee with
Southampton Committee had reported to the House, ' what had failen from his Honourable and Learned Friend,
that he had committed the witness to the eustody of the Sir- namely, that a Committee of inquiry should be appointee. The
geant-at- Arms for having disobeyed the Speaker's warrant. , Committee which sat, and had made this Report to the House,
lie found on inquiry that the person bait be en met with ' appeared to have made the Report in such a form as to give rise
in London accidentally, that be had been taken be- ito a question of legality. The debate which had arisen on this
fore the Committee without having any opportunity question had strikingly proved that verylittle
good could follow
given him to go down to Southampton, and that it had been ' discussion on such a question in that House. This had arisen
impossible for him to go clown to search for the paper. He , more from the peculiar form of that Report than from the parti-
( Mr. F.) had heard with surprise the Hon. Member for Gates- I cutter nature of the subject matter. He did not think that a new
head assert that the majority of the Committee lead reported the Act of Parliament ee se required in this instance. The House
conduct of that man, and had directed that he should be placed I was perfectly efficient to decide on the question before it. All the
in the custody of the Sergeant-am Arms, not for the parpose of original constitutional authority which it elope possessed it still
procuring additional evidence from him, but as a punishme.nt retained, and he was of opinion that the Spealser's warrant was
for the manner in which he had given his evidence. He felt I issued by h.m under his general Parliamentary authority. The
that in using the expressions he had done, after that avowal of Committee ai pointed to try a contested election was authorised
the lion. Member for Gateshead— to report whether wens saes had disobeyed the Speaker's
Mr. HUTT—I rise to order, Sir. I feel, Sir, th:.t that summons, pr the summons of the Chairman, or had given false
lion. Gentleman is not entitled to say, after having used the evidence, or had otherwise misbehaved henself. WI at was the
indecent expression—(" Order, order.") condition in which the matter stood? A person had been
The SPEAKEII—The lion. Gentleman is clearly out of before the Committee to be examined. It was a matter of
order in characterising any expression of an Hon. Member in perfect indifference whether he went there by virtue
the House as indscent.—(Cheers. ) of a summons or warrant. He was there voluntarily
Mr. HUT r—Sir, I apologise to the House for having been under examination; he was called on to produce certain
so far carried away by the warmth of my feelings as to give papers, and it was for the Committee to decide
utterance to an expression unworthy of my position as a Member whether his conduct was contumacious in not pro-
of thes House. I rise tee order, Sir. It is evidently out of order during them. If the Committee were of opinion that
for the lion. Gentleman opposite, after having made use of an he had Lad reasonable notice to produce the papers, and that
expression with regard to the Southampton Election Committee, having had that, he made away vi Is them, in order to prevent
anel after having been called to order by you for using that ex • the jurisdiction of the Committee, he was guilty of contempt
pression, and Mier having, retracted that expression, to attempt of the authority of the liouse, and was liable to be committed.
now to. justify it. If he have retracted—which I understand I Much ambiguity appeared to have arisen from calling the doeu-
he has done—the expressions which he applied last night, I / went a warrant. lie point of fart it was nettling more than a
presume he is not now to rise here in his place to justify them. notice to produce, and the sole question was whether that doeu-
Ile apprehended that that was the line of argument which the ment, signed by the Speaker, was a reasonable notice. If the
Hon. Member was pursuing, if he did not use the very words; witness had asked for further time to comply with
and as it appeared to him that such conduct was in the beefiest the terms of the warrant, the Committee would, no
degree objectionable, be lead thought it his duty to call the lion. doubt, have granted his, request ; but his statement was
Gentleman to order. that he had put it out of his power to produce them,
The SPEAKER said that the Hon. Member for Knaresbo-- and that took place three months after he had received
rough had last night made use of a term for which he had found notice.—( Hear, hear.) It was a momentous question
it his duty to call him to order. He had used the word "vin- whether a witness should be allowed to destroy papers on the
d ctive," but when that expression was withdrawn, no reflection ground that the summons had expired. if a Committee
should have been made upon it in any other form. If he had reported that a witness had misbehaved himself, what was the
ascertained, alter the Hon. Member had concluded his sentence, House to do ? Under the Act of Parliament the Chairman of the
that it was his intention to justify the expression he had before Committee, by their direction, might, at any titre' in the
used, it would be his (the Speaker's) duty, anti he should cer- course of their proceedings, resort to the House, for the
tainly have found it necessary, to call him to older again. interposition of its authority or censure.—(Hear, bear.)
He was sure the Hon Gentleman would perceive that no i All that was deputed to the House by the Act of Par-
Member had a right to reflect upon the conduct of a Committee liaenent was, whether censure or commitment should lee
which was sitting to decide a ease upon the author ity del, gated the consequence of the verdict of the Committee. It
to it by the House.—( Hear. ) always gave him eliScerstfort to bear Hon. Members retelling
Mr:FERRAN') said, that he sincerely regretted that in that House to the proceedings and eractice of the Courts
he had used the language complained of last night.—( Hear, in Westminster Hall. The practice of that llouse was
hear.) But he did not knew whether it was necessary for him founded upon higher principles than were then proceeding in
any farther tojustify the language he lead used.—( Loud laugh-. i the Gusts of Law. It it should tutu out upon inquiry
ter.) lie was not going to justify the word st vindictive," but that the authority of the House issued in one ses-
he tiid think that the lions Akimbo: would allow- him to say I sion ceased in another, he deprecated remedying that
that the language he had used was very extraordinary language by Act of Parliament. They could make Stateliest. Or-
for a Member of a Committee. ders in one session, which would govern the proceed-
Mr. HUTT—What was it ?. ings of the House in that and future sessions. If the
Mr. FERILAND said that he had understood the Hon. House is called on to decide, whether a eitness had or had
Member to make the very extraordinary assertion that the not been guilty o: prevarication, it unfortunately happened that
Committee had not confined the witness for the purpose of the opinions of Members on that subject %%Quid be too often
obtaining Any further evidence from hint. i foretold by knowing on which side of the House he sat --
Mr. HUTT—I did not say so. i (Hear, hear.) Another important circumstance was,
Mr. FERRAND said that, so far as he remembered, I, that in these eti.cualons they saw . Members of the same
that was the language used by' the Honourable Member. Corn trei tee rising on opposite sides of the House, and giving oppo-
Mr. BERN AL rose to order. He was sure the House site opinions, and nothing could more incapacitate Gentlemen
and the Hon. Member himself would perceive that it would be assembled together in Committee for coming to acalm judgment
highly injudicious and highly indecorous that the time of the than being thus brought into collision one with another. The
House should be wasted by repetit:ons of what had passed in House would do well to consider, that in all those .cases they
former debates. had not to decide on the conduct of the witness—
elm I:ERRAND said that he had first been attacked in very all that they had to do was to look to the record.
strong language, and he had only risen for the purpose of ex- That record set forth that the party had been com-
plaining. he Hon. Member had at all events used very strong 1 • victed by a proper tribunal, anti all that the House
language towards him personally:—(Cries of "Order.") had to do, sitting in its judicial capacity, was to
The SPEAKER said. that the lion. ',Member for Knares- consider the • sentence which should be passed upon
borough had acted most properly by retracting the expression it. lie should vote for the discharge of the man, because
he had used last night, after lee had been called to order. The he thought that pending the inquiry, whirls had been
Hon. Member for Dundalk (Mr. Redington) had not, on that proposed, he ought not to be kept in custoey.
evening, as he (the Speaker) had understood him, attacked I He approved of the conduct of his Hon. and Learned Friend
the Honourable Member for having used that ex- 'in expressing a doubton the subject, and although he ( SirT. W. )
pression. But the Honourable Member for Dundalk- entertained no doubt whatever, yet lee thought that after a
had said, that if that scold were applied again, lie should feel it , doubt had been expressed by such high authority as his
his duty to use the strongest terms which the forms of the Honourable and Learned Friend, inquiry was necessary.
House would allow. The Hon. Member had not, however, as IHe did not thiok that the witness should now be kept in cus-
it appeared to him, used any strong expression affecting the tody ; and he should therefore vote in favour of his dismissal,
lion. Member for Knaresborough. He trusted the lien. I with the understandit'ee that he should be ready to attend again
Member for Knaresborough would allow him to say, that it was before the Committee if his attendance were required.
perfectly irregular to allude to what had been said in a former Sir C. NAPIER said that he had been last night charged
debate.—( Hear, hear.) . ,by the Right. Hon. Baronet, the First Lord of the Treasury,
Mr. H urr—Perhaps, if I am perfectly in order the House with having brought forward a motion of an unparalleled cite-
will permit me—( Loud cries of" Chair," and "Order.") I racter.—(Cries of "Order.")
presume the House is not going to refuse to hear me, in eenla• I Lord el A HON rose to order. He submitted that it was not
nation of my course of proceeding—some explanation of the proper, in the absence of -the Right Hun. Baronet, to refer to
charges made against me. Sir, lam disposed to approach this what had fallen from him on a former evening.
subject in all calmness. As I have stated, 1 did not use the Sir C. NAPIER would only say that in the course he had
expreasion attributed to me. The expression I did use was— taken last night, it had not been his intention to embarrass
(The lion. Member was again interrupted by loud cries of either the Mouse or the Government, or the Committee. lie
s• Order," and " Chair.") Sorely the commonest indulgence j was happy to find that the motion he had made last night, and
might be granted me. I did not say that "for the purpose of i which was rejected by a large majority, was now unanimously
obtaining evidence, I did think it was desirable to retain the adopted.
wit ness."—( Cries of " Greer, order.") After a few words from Sir R. INGLIS,
The SPEAKER said, that after his having called one lion. Mr. W. 0. STANLEY laid he had been much surprised at
Member to order, it was quite unnecessary for the Hon. Merin- the course admoted the minority in the Committee. He
bee (Mr. Hutt) to explain. thought it was decidedly wrong in them to state their opinions
Mr. HUTT—I will not press. i tuntil the whole of the proceedings were before the House. He
An How. Masinaw on the Ministerial benches—You have should support the motion of the Hein. Member fur Devonport.
to right. After a. tow words front Mr. REEINGTON and Sir V. BLAKE,
Mr. HUT T—Who says, I have no right ? I presume, Sir— Dlr. THESIGER moved that the prisoner be discharged
Mr. C. W. WYNN—I thought that the Hon. Member for from the custody of the Sergeant-at-Ardis.
Knaresborough had not concluded his speech. He was inter- i The motion was then agreed to.
rupted by a speech to order. He is therefore in possession oft
the House.—(Hear, hear.) . I motion,At the suggestion of Mr. C. WOOD, it .was added to the
that the attendance of William Rous Mabson, before
Mr. FERIIAND—After the remarks which have fallen !the Co
from the lion. Gentleman opposite, I shall not go on.—(hear.) The House then adjourned at Five o'Cloek.
Mr. HUTT—I can assure the House that had no intention I
Committee, be required on Mendiy.
of interrupting the Hon. Member for Knaresborough.
thought he hid concluded his speech. It is impossible for
me not to feel myself seriously affected by the different
charges made against the Committee of which I am
a member. I car, assure the House that, according to the best
of my ability, I have endeavoured to discharge my duty upon
that Committee.--( Hear, hear.) 1 will say, that with respect
to my acting as a member of this Committee, if any one should
say that I have made an unjust application of my oath, or in
any way perverted any duties as a man of honour—if such ap
allegation were made, either in this House or elsewhereel
would treat that person who made it as a calumniator and a
liar !—(Loud cries of " Order, order," " Chair, chair," and
great confusion.)
The SPEAKER—I must tell the Hon. Member that such
expressions cameo be tolerated here.— ( Tremendous cheering.)
It is my duty to call on the Hon. Member to retract his ex-
pression.
Mr. HUTT—I assure you, Sir, and the. Houle, that I feel
sincerely sorry if I have in any way offended against the regu-
lations of this House.—( ar, hear.) Using the expression I
did, I thought it was a part of speech which was per-
mitted in this House. I• had no intention of got,
beyond the regulations of the House. Both ;thee*
expressions, then, I regret to have u-ed." The 110.
Member continued. lie would dismiss this subject. lie
was surprised that the Right Hone Gentlemen who occupied
the Treasury benches did not stand forward in defence
of the Honourable and Learned Gentleman. He thought
that the Honourable Gentleman had given notice of a motion
for Monday to bring this subject under the consideration of the
House, and he thought he would have acted a more becoming-
and a far fairer part if he had communicated his intention to
the Committee or to one of the Members of that Committee,
instead of bringing the subject under consideration late in the
evening. He was not surprised that many exalted and Hon.
Members did not acquit the. Hon. and Learued Member of
disingenuousness. He thought he acted with a great want of
candour.
Mr. THESIGER said he did not know if the Hon. Member
was in order. He had endeavoured to explain to the Honse,
that Le had not-any improper mottoes, and he trusted he bad
explained that satisfactorily.—( Hear. )
Mr. HU IT presumed. he was in order.—(Hear, hear.)
The Hon. Gentleman had made an explanation whieir might
be satisfaatory to his own mindebustit was not so to his {-Mr.:
Hutt's) mind, nor to a majority of that House.—( Hear,
hear.) With regard to the motion which had been brought
before the House, he could only. say, that gentlemen -of the
legal possession on butte sides of the House having decided that
the warrant was not a legal instrument, the individual in ques-
tion ought .o be discharged. But the House must recollect that
it was not for disobeying a legal warrant that he was confined.
He would say in addition, that Members who served upon
Committees, lead a very arduous duty to perform--( Hear,
hear)—which was rendered still more so, when, after serving
upon a Committee from I I to 4 o'clock, and then pet forming
their duty as Members in the House, they were called upon at
half-past two to defend atm meet len of their conduct.—( Cheers.)
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said that after the debate
which had taken place there could be little doubt that this
individual ought to be discharged from custody. His Right
Honourable Friend near him, who had given his
opinion on the subject, ought to be conclusive on the point.
Ihe present was a question of great constitutional importance.
He should not enter into anything like an argument upon it,
but should merely call the attention of the House to it, and they
would at once see its very great importance. Ile could not
quite agree with his Hon. Friend, that there lead been any
practice prevailing in that House which the present notice fell
in with, because the point . was altogether a new one,
and it was because it was a new one that he con-
sidered it of so much importance. He woule show the
House that the question could not have arisen before. Pre-
reels to the passim, of the present Act, it was so well confirmed
that everything of this kind, commenced in one session of Par-
lemma ended with that session, that even a petition against a
returtmil prepared but not presented in that session, was with-
drawn, and a new petition presented in the subse-
quent. one.—( Hear, hear.) Thus, not only everything in the
shape of (eiders and warrants ceased vs itle the • ession, but even a
petition itself. Then it was usual for the House to g.ve the
customary order to the Speaker to issue his summons to the
witnesses to attend. Under the Bill of his Right Hon. Friend,
(Sir Robert Peel,) a clause was, for the first time, introduced,
by which a petition presented but not prosecuted in one session
of parliament, might, be left over to the next one. lie did not
think that it lead ever occurred, that a petition presented in
one sessent of Parliament had been tried in another.
Sir G. GREY—A few sessions ago.
The SOLICITOR- GENER A L—Butno such question asthe
present had ever occurred. The present case had not e risen from the
Bill of his Right Hon. Friend, but from the circumstance that
so many petitions were presented after the general election,
that in the short session of Parliament, it was not possible
to try them. It was thus the euestinn had arisen, whether
the warrants then issued were binding in the present session.

RAILWAY RETURNS.

We extract from the lic.iihray 2111,gazine the sums re-
ceived on the principal Railways of Great Britaii,
tor the week ending on the day of the. month prefixes
to each. The return includes the money received fot
passengers, parcels, carriages, horses, mails, and Mer-
Chutrdixe

*eel— •
Naive
of Railway. Miles Total.
x.s. d.
ended Opened.
Apr. 23 Birmingham & Derby Junct. 48 1,061 11 8
22 Birmingham ard Cloueestvr 55 1,509 17 8
16 Brandling Junction 25 715 4 9
22 Chester and Birkenhead ..
24 Dundee and Arbroath
24 Eastern Counties
23 Edinburgh and Glasgow
23 Glasgow and Ayr ..
23 Glasgow, Paisley, & Greenoi•k 22} 658 8 11
23 Gland Junet , Chester &Crewe 113 8,636 3 ti
23 Great North of England 45 1,302 10 2
24 Croat Western
21 Halle ' 18 '224 12 6
23 -Hull and Selby
23 I,:.neaster & I'reston Junction 20i 396 8 1
22 Liverpool and Manchester .31 3,833 2 7
.23 London and Birmingham--; 1121 16,313 4 8
'2B London and Blackwall ...... - 847 15 10
,23 tondon and Brighton ...
3 Ditto Shoreham Branch
26 London and Croydon . 101 443 8 91
28 L, ndon and Greenwich 34 829 15 0
" 25 London and South Western
22. Manchester, Bolton, and Bury 10 572 11 21
. 25 Manchester & liirrninglam
23 Al •..nchester and Leeds
23 Alidland Counties • 57/ 2,524 0 10
23 Newcastle and Carlisle 6o* 1,245 8 3
21 Newcastle and North Shields 7 312 '3 11
24 Northern arid Eastern ...
23 North Midland ' ' 724 3,987 10 9
22 North Union ...
23 Preston and Wyre
25 Sheffield and Manchester 7 281 'll 6
24 Ulster
23 York and North Midland '2B 1,562 12 11

VESSELS OF THE uNiiED
KINGOO3I.

A return has been laid before Parliament of the number of
vessels above fifty tons burthen, and the total amount of their
tonnage registered at each of the ports of Great Britain and
Ireland, including the Channel Islands. The thi ee chief ports
in England are London, Liverpool, and ;Newcastle ; in Scot-
land, Glasgow (incloding Greenock and Port Glasgow), Aber-
deen, and Dundee ; in Ireland, Belfast, Cork, and Dublin.
The returns for
vessels, 598,554 tons ; Liver wol, 1,097 v., 307'852 t. ; New-
castle, 1,143 v., '259.571 LI.
, Glasgow; 662 v., 187,545 t. ;
these places are as follow :—London, 2,405
Aberdeen, 298 v., 54 443 t D
Bel-
fast, 250 v. 44,458 t.: Cork, 021 v., 29,765 t. ; Dublin, 134 v.,
• 23,072 t. 'Total for I.:uglafitl 10,804 v., 2,033,345 t. ; Scot-
-, ‘ .; Dundee, 282 v., 50,060 t. ; •
land, 2,261 v., 429,635 t. ; Ireland, 1,037 v., 165,969 t. ; anti
for the is ho!e of the United Kingdom, including the Chat-owl
Islands, 14,416 v., an 1 2,668,732 t.

NORTHERN AND EASTERN RAILWAY. With
much pleasure we lay before out readers the following extract
!'rum the letter of a Shareholder :—" You may remember in
what a depressed state the funds of the Nor.hern and Eastern
Railway were for a long time, and I am sure you will be glad
to hear they are Low in excellent condition, so muds so that a
circular has been sent to each party in arrears with his calls, to
the effect that money is (Taming in so fast on the delacntures,
that the arrears need aof be paid until next year. The calls
were at one time very licavy—.2s/. per share in 12 months.
This line will do well now,"—Railfrull Magazine.
On Saturday several workmen were set to work in
filling up a portion of the deep hollow between Ilolboand.ill
and Snow• hill, in order to afford an approach to the new street,
which is nearly three feet above the car riage- way of the has
The paving ot the new street is completed, and was this morn-
ing viewed by the Surveyors and several of the Committee. It
will be completed for traffic in the course of the day, when 'it is,
expected that foot passengers will be allowed to ss.pa
Accounts from Berlin, received by the French Go-
vernment, state that on the 23d inst., at night, the ex-King of
Tolland was still in peat. danger. The fever had subsided, but
his strength was nearly exhausted.
VIENNA, APRIL 16.—The Duke of Saxe-Cobourg,
on his return from London and Paris, paid a visit to their
Majesties, and then went to Prince Metternich. It is said that
his daughter, the Duchess of Nemours, will visit Germany at
the end of the summer.