Star.
London, England, 1830-12-09 00:00:00

LORD CHANCRLYOR 01 IRILASD.

Lord.FARNHAM said that if the noble earl at the ,head of his
majesty's government had been in his place either yesterday or the day
betore, be should have taken the opportunity of adverting to a subject
of Tay considerable importance--of so much impurtance that be could
no longer, consistently with his duty, refrain from offering some ob-
servations respecting it. He begged, however, that it might not be cos.
aired that the remarks he felt himself coaled upon to make on the
question he should ask upon the subject, proceeded from any feeling
of hostility to the present government. He was one of those who thought
that were the administration of justice completely separated from
all political considerations it would be so muck the better for
the country, and be lamented that the situation of the Noble
and Learned Lied on the Woolsack even, should remain a pee.
lament exception in practice to a principle which all men
admitted to be most salutary and advantageous. But if it was necasary
that the Seals of England should be held by a Callow Minister, in coo-
sequence of the important political duties which the Load Chancellor bad
to discharge, sure be was that no necessity existed for the Seals of
Ireland being in the possession of • person politically attached to the
administration of the day. He had been led to these observations by the
current report that it was the intention of his Majaty's tiovernment to
withdraw Sir Anthony Hart from the care of Lord Chancellor for
Ireland, in older to make room for a paean for whom every one bad'
the highest respect, Lord Plunket. He was in hopes that in the present
situation of the country his Majesty's Uovernment would have been dis-
posed to pay the greatest attention to ecooomy, and his great objection
te the ent to which he bad alluded, was that it saddled the
country wit an unnecessary pension of four thousand pounds
a of pensions
So soon as this arrauganeat should be completed, the number
payable to retired Chancellors would be no less than six ;
sisroakmpetrour Imunsett mote rerestoftv t• the
ery soon topottledcal world heforsbould toot
England
and another for Ireland. If this should go on, it would soon become
swam for the Lesbian to act upon the principle se usefully
le with more than a certain number of *attires at the same
thawmust be compelled, he teased, as long is romance of
thin Inalmeedve analogy, to provide that. for the future, raked Chan.
came eheeld not take the p Won until some of the antecedent dew-
agas bad died or (Lighter yrbe resent Mate of the country afforded
the t motives to avoid every needless charge or incrust-
lemma. , with respect to the Isernal gentleman who at resent.
held the somas d Inland, he bed not the Maim of kis roma se-
lisistanes, bit he isdmeSeoll that be °indicted she business of his
emit Is a eater highly Washita so the senstry, and which pee ensi
the lobbed. so the bas. He had se doubt, indeed, that If the altion.l
den is insides cholerbe then& isssieFry, tips Forted siamoor
of the bend gentleness would also aid eadsfeedes to the

country. In this ease it was probable that his Majesty's Govern
went would think it neceseary, at the same time, to adopt some
mere economical arrangement than the present and if any thing of
this nature was in contemplation, he should be glad to receise inform'.
thin upon it, and this was one of his objects in noticing the : übj-et.
The circumstances and temper of the country, required, be must re-
peat, on the pan of Government, the utmost attet.tion to econinny in
every department of the public service.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that nothing could be more
fair than the question of the Noble Lord, and he only regretted that he
had put it at a time when the most minute and clear informatioo could
not be obtained, both on account of the absence of his Noble Friend,
to whom any statement, maid it be made at all on the economical part
lof the subject, peculiarly belonged, and because. with reference to the
present situation of the meawilmnint; the question, at the present mo-
ment, was premature. The Noble Lord said ;hat he hoped some
economical arrangement would be attempted ; if so, it was obvi-
ously impossible that such amingemeuts could yet be in a state so ad-
vanced as to admit of his making any communication upon the subject.
The noble lord had also adverted more distinctly to a reported anarge-
ment respecting the Lord Chancellor of Ireland, and had put a question
as to the swum), of that report. It would be felt by their lordship.
that It was impossible for a person in his situation distinctly to answer
the question of the noble lord. Whether the principle which required
the separation of the judicial and political character was deviated from
widely in the single instance of the seals was a question of no less diffi-
culty than importance. The first impression of all would be, that the
answer to this question would be is the negative; and all would,he might
almost say instinctively, desire to see this anomaly removed. But the
person holding the seals filled an office so entirely peculiar,and had many
various functions to fulfil, several of which were of a nature exclusisely
political, as not to render the question by any means so clear as might
at first sight be imagined. But this was not a question which they
could now discuss with advantage. It involved the greatest and most
im t changes—the adoption of a course never yet known at any
in the history of this country since the office of Lord Chancellor
ad existed, and called upon them to put one great branch of the civil eritowitan
justice of the country upon a footing very different from that on which
it had stood in all preceding times. This was, he said, the great ques-
tion, and one very tit for discussion in that House; and on a proper oc-
casion, and after r'ue notice, he should not be found backward to cuter
upon the discussion with that deliberation and solemnity which the im-
portance of the subject required. But then the noble bad said,why
not in Ireland separate the political character from the office of Lord
Chancellor ? To this he must give a similar answer. He had had a long
experience in political life, and had witnessed many changes of Ad-
ministration, and he never knew a single instance in which a change
of Ministers was not followed by a change in the person filling the
office of Lord Chancellor of Ireland. In 1801, when Lord &aloud'
came into office, Lord Redesdale went to Ireland. In the next
change which took place, the same rule was followed in Ireland as
in England, for the Irish Chancellor remained, and in England land
Eldon did not go out of office. But in 1006, after the death of
Mr. Pitt, Lord Redesdale came back. and Mr. Ponaonby obtained
the Irish Seals. Then in the year 1807, on the formation of the
Duke of Portland's Administration, Lord Manners was appointed,
and remained in °Moe during the Administration of Mr. Per-
cival and that of Lad Liverpool, which were in effect con-
tinuations of the same Ministry which entered office with the
Duke of Portland. When Lord Liverpool ceased to be minister, then
his noble friend, Lord Lyndhurst, became Chancellor of England: and
in a short time afterwards, as short as the completion of the arrange-
ment admitted, Lord Manners was withdrawn from Ireland, and Sr:.
Anthony Hart appointed in his place. All these changes took place
at the same time in England and Ireland, and he could not say
that any sufficient ground had been alleged why a distinction
should be made upon the present occasion. To divest the Lord
Chancellor of his political character, so as to render his tenure of
office independent of political movements, would he a change of
East importance and influence in Ragland. In Ireland also it would
although not
irest. The noble lord must ad.
mit that change,
no charge against the Government that it did
and deviate from the course which been thought right, and utii-
formli pursued by all preceding Governments. Ile (the Lord Chan.
cellar felt they could not be charged with any impropriety, because
they id not deviate in an unusual, not to say unprecedented manner,
from the established practice. He (the noble lord) asked whether the
government had come to any final decision upon the subs. This
question he could answer decidedly in the negative. When he was
asked whether the government had such a change in contemplation, he
felt that he should ill discharge his duty if he did not refuse to answer.—
(Hear, bear.) lie was bound not to say what was in the contem-
plation of Ministers until some decision had been adopted, That
he leaned to the change It was not necessary for him to say, after
the observations he had already made. (Hear, hear.) Then with
respect to the argument of economy, and the allusion to the limitation
of the jointure of widows in well.regulated private establishments.—
This cave was not in point • for there was no instance in which the re.
tiring pension had not been granted to Chancellors. To depart from
this practice might be a change for the better, but still it would be a
great change. But be would say this mach, that if such a change as
that to which the question of the noble lord referred were to take place—
and he repeated that nothing was yet decided on the subject—it would
be found that the arrangement had not been made without a due regard
to economy. lie pledged himself that whenever the arrangement should
be laid before their lordships, it would be found that economy had been
regarded, and be should bemuch aurirised if their lordships did not find
that the arrangement was such as would wove them to have consulted
the distressed state of the country as far as so minute an affair could af.
feet the situation of the country t and he admitted that every farthing
of the public money was of importance. He had detained their lord-
ships longer than he intended, and should only say, in conclusion, that
in this and every other screw rat they should have the greatest regard
to econonsy.
The conversation then dropped.
SUPTOSID 41111141/SIX.m-PIOCIISSION OF TEI ?RAMIS SOCJSTIES.
Viscount MELBOURNE said that their lordships were probably
awarethat there was now in the custody of the officer of the house a
person charged with a grievous offence. He apprehended that, without
any argument, their lordships would agree with him that the proper
comae for them to pursue was, to order him to be delivered up to the
=civil authorities. Ile should, therefore without further *beer-
move that James Pak, now in the custody of the officers of the
house, be delivered over to the civil authorities, to be dealt with in due
course of law.

The Duke of WELLINGTON said that he had heard of something
which was of much greater importance than the occurrence which se-
maimed the motion of the noble lord. He understood that an address
had that day been presented to his majesty In by the delegates of
a tumultuous assemblage, which had p to the palace in pro.
cession, with flap, banners, and music. The admission of any portion
of an illegal assembly to the person of his majesty was a dangerous no-
velty, upon which their lordships would be more anxious for explanation
than on the subject of the noble lord's motion, as it was of infinitely
greater importance.
Viscount MELBOURNE said it might perhaps be satisfactory to
their lordships that be should state the whole course of moendirris
which hail led to the transaction to which the noble duke alluded. The
day after he had received the seals of his office he bad been waited on
by a deputation of the Trades Societies, who expressed their anxiety, in
consequence of the severe disappointment they had experienced in the
postponement of his Majesty's visit to the City, to be permitted to pre-
sent an address to his Majesty in person, to show their loyalty to the
King and their attachment to the Constitution. Seeing no objection
to the presentation of an address by these three persons in tee usual
way at the Levee, be took his Majesty's pleasure on the subject,
and he agreed to receive them. It was distinctly understood, that
the Addicts was to be presented by three persons only, and in
the usual manner. Yesterday be was greatly surprised to find,
from a placard which was posted about the town, that the different Trade
Societies intended to meet and proceed in a body to St. James's. He
made inquiry about it, and he learned that such was the determination
which bad been adopted. He immediately consulted with those who
bad the immediate charge of the public peace, the Magistrates and the
heads of Police, sad they all agreed that in their circumstances it sae
better to let the procession proceed without interruption. The heads of
the Police said that if no intenuptiun were attempted to the proceed-
ings they would be answerable for the public peace. In these circum-
stances he thought it would be better that the should be per•
omitted to take their course. The procession =ell: plate, and he
was happy to say that he had every reason to believe that no interrup-
tion to the public peace bad occurred. If any further explanstion sere
required, he should be happy to afford it.

The LORD CHANCELLOR admitted that the assemblage of
great number of persons to proceed with an address to his Itlaj..iy,
was a proceeding which ought not to he encouraged, and it was to i.e
lamented that this 'node of displaying their loyalty should hove struck
the mind of the Societies, for it could not be doubted that all great
assemblages of people, upon whatever occasion, in a place like Laicism,
were alasys attended with danger to the public peace. lf, however. a
great number of persons expressed a wish to see thew Sovereign, and
proceeded in procession towards his palace foe that purpose, as the
Trades Societies had dace, however inconvenient ex even dangerous
they might be, still it could not be prevented, for the law of the wan.
try was that a breach of the pence must actually occur before embody
had a right to interfere. Now he quite agreed with his Noble Friend
that the persons belonging to the police haling said that they appre-
hended no daoger to the public pesee—(hear, hear>s-and they it nii.bt
be recollected best knew the means at their disposal for 16 pre.
asevatios--it would have been unwise to attempt to pretreat the
intended procession by force, for it was only by force that it could have
been doom Before he left the Palace be had not omitted to inquire
bow this assemblage had omdected themselves, and be found that as.
thing could be more peaceable than their conduct, net only during their
Pei bat at the Palace, when Remise about, waiting probably to
anv"
leis , foe he undimmed a report was spread about mosiirthe
crowd aft 'bating would posbably present himself at a window. There
was as domes, no es peemien of impatience, although they weer for
a amslimaide period educed in their eapeetation, kis Majesty
having boss engaged b beigiog a Corned ; nothing, in Amer, could be
menanise sod ealkorly than their whole conduct.

t.