The Sun.
London, England, 1842-04-06 00:00:00

cost sh be regulated by the averages of those towns only
- which have hitherto made returns in accordance with the. Act
9 Geo. IV.. but that from and after the let of May, 1843,. the
duties shall be regulated by the averages of all the towns named
in the schedule of the present Bill, unless Parliament shall in
the meantime otherwise direct."
Sir R. PEEL said, in fact, the proposal of -the Honourable
Gentleman was to strike out the whole clause, except the
word " ael."--(Laughter. ) The kin. Gentleman oppo•ite
thought the existing number of towns ought to be retained,
yet the 'fleet of his clause would be to throw them Out. He
ought at least to move that the old towns from which the
averages Were taken ought to be retained.
_Certainly his mo-
tion was worded in a very extraordinary manner.
Mr. CHILDERS said, his wish was to hare the question of •
averages settled now.
tz.it R. PEEL could not agree to the proposal. The Hon.
Gentleman suggested that, when corn reached the price of 675;
or 68s. nn duty shou'd be imposed upon foreign corn; and he
( Sir. H. Peel) wished to make a few observations upon that
point. The proposal formerly made on the other side of the
House was, that a fixed duty of Bs. should be imposed uiion •
foreign corn, no matter, what might be the price in this
country, or how unfavourable to the harvest. That
proposal, it appeared to him, would, when the price of
corn was high, operate very unfavourably for the consumer.
By the measure which he introduced, there would he only a
duty upon foreign emn of Bs. a quarter when the price reached
; and lie had reason to comeude that, upoit that riot, his
plan was preferable to that of the Opposition. With regard to
the proposal of an increase in the !Auntie! of towns from which
the averages were to be taken, he had reason to t elieve, from
the communications he received, that it woull work siiisfac-
torily, and that it would produce no effect whatever upon the
averages. The Hon. Gentleman said that frau Is were
practised both ways—that they were practised with a
view to raise the price as well as with a view to depress it.
The Hon. Gentleman said they accused the corm-dealer and •
speculator with an attempt to raise the averages for the purpose
of bringing in foreign corn at a low duty. Now that imputa-
tion might be justifiable, but it would apply to another class '
of men to try to depress the averages for the purpose of
reducing the return. But they could not set one in-
just•ce against the other; his (Sir R. Peel's) object in
wid,,ning the range of the averages was for the puipose of
preventing all fraud.
Mr. BARCLAY rose- to explain, but was met with lend
cries of order, in the midst of which he sat down.
Sir R. PEEL wished to take precaution against all fraud.
. . .

He thought that the extent of the fraud had beers greatly ex-
aggerated, more especially of late years, and his(Sir R. Peel's)
object in adding to the number of towns; was to make fraud
still more scarca. He relied on the gradual decline of the
duty. He did not attach more importance to the fifteen
agricultural towns because they were the chief agricultural
towns, than► to the fifteen manufacturing towns. He
thought it would be seen that prices were higher in
the manufacturing towns than in the agricultural towns.
He wished to ascertain the precise average price of corn in
the country, and he did think that it was a rational mode of

. -
pro:we:ling to take the principal towns. He decidedly ob-
jected to the mode proposed by. the Hon. Gentleman that there
should be a double set of return% and that the ne h set of re-

terns should come into operation a year hence, for he (Sir H.
Peel) thought such a course would necessarily lead to a re-
newal of the late discuvions on the subject. tie did not be-
lieve that the averages would be materially effected either way
by the proposition which he had submitted to the House, and
therefore he must continue to adhere toit.

Mr. HAWES said he understood the Right Hon. Gentle-
man to say that his object was to prevent fraud. Poe cry
which had been rased for an alteration of the system ot 'taking
the averages had been raised by those who were anxious for
an alteration in the average price of corn, and the question
was, how far the Right Hon. Baronet had lent himself to that
object. Ile had written letters to several persons who were
largely engaged in the corn trade, to ascertain what was their
opinion with respect to the addition of the new towns, and the
opinion was almost unanimous that the average price would be
lowered. A gentleman to whom he had spoken on the subject,
had remarked that the adoption of new towns was confined al-
most exclusively to districts in which the soil was of an inferior
quality. Mr. M'Culloch, in his work, had given the counties
of Kent, Essex, Suffolk, Hampshire, 'Rutland. Hertfordshire,
Berkshire, and Hereford, as the districts which produced the
best quality of wheat ; and stated that the average quality of
the wheat grown in Wales was inferior. Let them now see
what were the counties selected in which the majority of
the towns for taking the averages was proposed to be added.
In the county of Kent they added four towns, in Essex three,
in Suffolk none, in Hampshire one, in Rutland one, in Here-
ford, our, in Berkshire four, and in Hertford one. He would
now take the great producing'counties. He should assume that
there were gr, at producing counties in the south and midland
districts, in which the quality of the wheat was inferior to that
grown in the counties lie hail just named, and in which but few
towns were added. In Lancashire there were three towns
added, and in Yorkshire there were fourteen. In Lincolnshire
there were ten towns added, in Stafford nine, and in Wales
twelve. In the western and southern districts there were
added, in Somerset four towns, in Devonshire three, and in
Cornwall four. Thus fifty-nine towns were added in the dis-
tricts in which wheat of an inferior quality was grown, and
only twenty towns in those in which the best quality was pro.
duced. They were confining the bulk of the towns in the new
list, where t e averages were to be taken, to those districts where
wheat of an inferior quality was grown. He now turned to
the return of towns in the fifteen agricultural and manu-
facturing districts. They left out London, although
acommercial town, and added Liverpool, leaving out London,
where the highest price was obtained, while Liverpool, where
the lowest prise was obtained, was added.—( Hear, hear. )
They had not kept up the original proportion in those towns,
and the greater number were selected from towns where wheat
of ass inferior quality was grown. He confessed that he thought
the proposed alteration would be against the public. What was
the effsct of fraud under the old sysiem? It was at all events
favourable to the public. The public gained in a reduction of
price by the attempt to work up the averages. But under the
new system the reverse would take place, and it they were
just they ought to alter the scale and lower the duty.
The Honourable Member for Somerset had stated that the
present system of taking the averages would be equivalent to a
4s. duty. He thought that the proposed scale of prices, tinder
the present Bill, should be tried for a year or two, but that the
system of averages under the old should not be connected with
it. The Hon. Gentleman did not ask the Government not to
bring the present Corn-law into operation; all that he asked
was, that the two systems should he tried together, in order
that they might be compared one with the other. Was the
Government afraid of putting its own system to that test ?
. .

(Cheers.) If so, they acre right in the opposition to this pro-
posal. —( Cheers.) Before he sat down, he would ask the
Right Hon. Gentleman to show that he had made as fair a se-
lect on of towns from the districts growing wheat of a superbr
quality, as he had from tho districts growing wheat of an inferior
quality ; and if the Right Hon. Gentleman could nut d t that,
then he (Mr. Hawes) wow:d contend that the selection of towns
would have the effect or lowering the averages unfairly, and
would be contrary to the pledge which had bean given by the
Right lion. Gentleman when he first introduced the measure.
Mr. DARBY said the Bill ought to be considered as a
whole.—lts object was to get rid of the mischiefs of the former
Corn-laws, and . one .of those mischiefs was the temptation
which it offered to speculators to force up the price of wheat'
at certain states of the market. The object of tho present
Bill Wa4 to prevent this from being done. By the combination
of the London dealers, the average were raised beyond what
they were in the country. Was the object of the Hon. Mem-
ber to keep up that system under which enormous frauds had
been committed? He altogether disputed the facts of the
Hon. Member as to the country districts, and under these eir-
eurnstances the fair way was to take the whole of the Bill
together. He should oppose the motion.
Mr. GLADSTONE sail, before he proceeded toddle more
substantial allegations of the Hun. Gentleman, he wished to set
aside the assertion that all that had been done had been with
die view of doing harm to the public. In a great measure of
that kind, calculated to agitate the minds of large classes and
interests throughout the country, it was exceedingly desirable,
in making any alteration, that it should be done once for all. In
any alteration the House should make, it was exceedingly desi •
rabic, unless there were very strong raisons to the contrary,
that it should be made at once.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon.
Gentleman had complained that all the Government had done
in proposing a change in the averages, was done to the detri-
ment of the public. Now, the Government had set its face
against the prevalence, and, as far as practicable,
against the possibility of fraud.— (Cries of " Hear, hear.")
The plea of the Honourable Gentleman was, that these
frauds wore in favour of the public.—( Hear, hear.) This
was the sentiment he expressed; he said that though there
was great mischief in the frauds as they affected individuals,
yet on the whole they told in favour of the public. Tkat would
he a sorry plea, even if it were true, but was it true? He
would admit that in their apparent effect of lowering the duty,
the frauds did seem to favour the public, but in saying that they
did so favour the public; the Hon. Gentleman was going
counter to all h s own arguments against the sliding scale.
What was the great mischief of the sliding scale? That under
it speculators had a facility of raising prices, and getting their
corn in at :he minimum of duty, and were 'thus induced to hold
corn back instead of bringing it to market. The Hon. Gen-
tleman had refei red to authorities. He ( Mr. Gladstone) could
refer to authorities which were entitled to great weight. The
opinion of those to whom he referred was., that instead of a
change of three or four shillings, there would not be a change
of as many pence in the average prices? But let them examine
the matter for thems--Ives. He confessed that he had heard
with astonishment the statement of the Hon. Gentleman, that
in the neighbourhood of the towns selected to be added to the
old list, the wheat grown was of an inferior description. He would
hardly have been more surprised had he heard it stated that the
wheat was of a finer description ; there was as mush ground
for the one allegation as fur the other. Tne Hon. Gentleman
gave them eight counties, with which the number under the
old list was 28, and the number proposed to be added was 20.
The total number added all over the kingdom was considerably
less than the old list. It appeared also to him (Mr. Gladstone)
that die selection of the Hon. Gentleman was altogether an
arbitrary one. There were several counties in which the

wheat grown was quite as fine as in those mentioned by the
Hon. Gentleman. In Surrey three new towns had been in-
cluded to one of the old list ; Worcester, three new towns to
one old ; Somersetshire, four new towns to six old ones ; in
Shropshire seven new towns and not one old. one ; and lastly,
in Staffordshire, that great manufacturing and consuming
county, where there was the finest corn and the highest prices.
there was not one single town in the old list, and under the
new one eight were included ; so that, in point of fact,
those five counties grew the finest wheat in the
country. and this would test the very rash allegation of the
Hon: Gentleman that there was a total of twenty-five towns.
Now he (Mr. Gladstone) would like to know how the Hon.
Gentleman meant to substantiate his allegation. Perhaps it
would be well to state what had actually taken place with re-
spect to this new list. The object of it was to provide against
fraud, and to obtain more accurately the real price of corn in
the large towns, and the desire of the Government was to Ob-
tain a considerable number of towns of the largest markets.
For 'that purpose they communicated with the Chairman
of the Board of Excise. and they called on him, in the first
place, to make out to them a list of the largest markets, and
subsequently to make a correction of that list; and, moreover,
to regulate the list of agrieniteral towns, on the ene hand, and
the reanufaeturing owns on the other. Now, this was a sim-
p.o narrative, The Hon. Gentleman spoke of prices in certain
towns b:ing 4s. or 53. higher in the manufacturing and com-
mercial towns than in the agricultural part of the country,
and he quoted a return made last September in proof of
his proposition. When he ( Mr. Gladstone) stated that that
was a particular period, he (the Hon. Gentleman) said, " Yes,
but what is true of one particular period was true of another."
Why, some thousands of averages bad been laid on the table
of the House. 41.0 there was not one of those returns that
would not show the immense effect that was produced on seve •
ral occasions in particular markets, by speculation at that par-
ticular time, and nothing could be more ludicrously fallacious
than that the prices of that county should be a proof of the
prices in another part. The Hon. Gentleman had referred, in
support of hig viev,:, to the roupsis laid on the table eVtibitin7
tho 4;04r59 prices thg 15 agricultural towns, on the one hand',
and the 15 manufacturing and commercial towns on the other.
Now the prinmple of selecting those fifteen towns was to take
the largest markets. • The on. Gentleman blamed the Go-
vernment for including Liverpool, where very low averages
which was, that in every large
prevailed instead of high ones. This censure, then, made
The case of
rtititstthheirsacilvenqpiraospeorsc.itgiz,wao
necessatoy
Liverpool proved, that in very large towns the averages might
renge very low ; for instance, when there was a considerable
emsumption of corn imported from foreign places, though the
farcign corn was not entered in the returns when it had the
tr.,. of keeping down British corn. The thin. Gentleman