The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-12 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURD Y EVENING, APRIL 12, 1845.

looked upon the Right Hon. Gentleman as the last paladin of
principle, the very chivalry of abstractirn ; end, when a ques-
tion was ra ;red u bleb touched the elementary principle of
constitutional settlement and ecclesiastical arrangement, I
never believed that it could be the Right Hon. Gentleman who
would come down and g ive the House the small change
of circumstances to settle this great account.—(Laughter end
cheers. ) Have circumstances which ought to settle every
thing—have circumstances not changed since the time
of \;r. Percival? How astonished must Mt-. Percival's ghost
be—if he has a ghost..—(Great laughter.) Yet were Mr. Pitt,
or Fos, or even Burke, whom the Bight Hon. Gentleman has
quoted . to-night, brought in to settle this question,
we might feel the controlling influence of the great apparition.
But Mr. Percival to be brought in to settle it !—(" Hear,
hear," and a laugh. ) Mr. Percival seems, in a spirit as petty
as his nature, to have agreed to a miserable vote about this
a,xidental college at Ma)nooth. What, let me ask you, was
the political and religious situation of affairs by virtue of which
Mr. Percival became Prime Minister at the time of which I
am speaking? You had really then what you pretend you now
hve—a Constitution in Church and State. You had that

Constitution, and Members of Parliament being then neces-
sarily in communion with the Church, were, by virtue of this
junction of Church and S:tate, in fact members of a lay synod.
What, again, was the situation of the other kingdoms of the
empire ? You had a Church in Scotland without any Dis-
senters, the only persons there not belonging to it being the
relicts of the old Episcopalian establishment. What, also, was
the case with respect to Ireland ? There was your Constitu-
tion in Church and State not only founded in principle, but
most rigidly adhered to. What do we now see? You have no
longer in this country your boasted union cf Church and State.
N on may proclaim them still—you may make speeches to prove
that the union is as strong as ever—you may toast them at
your public dinners, but I tell you that the Constitu-
tion in Church and State no hanger exists.—(Hear, hear.)
11;hat is the broad and undenir6le fact with respect to
this proclaimed union? Why, even within my own per-
sonale
xi experienceence,l am politically I detect its
connected
hollow
with a districtness;andt which
otes,tits
n
is threatened with very severe suffering in consequence of this
supposed Constitution in Church and State ; the inhabitants
of that district are about to endure one of the greatest blows
that could be inflicted upon them, and this solely because it has
pi aced a Conservative Government to destroy the ancient epis-
copate under which they have so long been governed.—( Hear,
and cheers.) What is now the position of the Church of Scot-
land—a church which the late Earl of Liverpool held up as a
motel, and as the perfection of a religious community, because,
I suppose, it gave him no trouble ?—( A laugh.) What, I
repeat, is the present situation of the Church of Scotland ? It
is rent in twain. Besides the Kirk, there is now the Free
Kirk. Well, will you endow the Free Kirk ? Will you apply
this principle of endowment to sectarians and schismatics of
every class ? Where will you stop ? Why should you stop ?
And this consideration brings roe to the question immediately
before the House. You find your Erastian system crumbling
from under your fc et. Will you adopt a pantheistic princip!e ?
I have unfaltering confidence in the stability of our Church ;
but I think that the real source of the injury which
threatens it is its connexion with the State, which places it
under the control of a House of Commons that is not neces-
sarily of its communion. Leave the Church to herself, she
will shrink from no contest, however severe. I believe in
Ireland itself, if the question be, will you sever the Church
from the State, or will you endow the Roman Catholic
Church ?—for my own part, I believe the Protestants of Ireland
would say, " Sever the connexion between the Church and the
State, and don't endow the Roman Catholics."— ( Hear, hear.)
lint then we come to this other consideration—are we to be
bound to recognise a pantheistic principle ? Because, judging
from all that has passed, I can only come to the conclusion,
that any body of sectarians that can prove a cer-
tain population to Downing-street will be considered to have a
claim for an endowment. For my cwn part, I confess I have
no great confidence in the cure of souls in that quarter.—.
( Hear, hear.) I observe in Downing-street a disposition to
assail our old and deeply rooted habits. From that quarter has
proceeded the assault on the parochial constitution of the
kingdom. Will they complete it by attending to our spiritual
necessities? For my part, I am totally opposed to such a pro-
ceeding.—(Hear, hear.) I can conceive nothing more op-
posed to, or more utterly at variance with, the feelings of this
country than a police surveillance, such as is contemplated
over the ceremonies and observances of the Church. I abso-
lutely deny that the Church of England is the creature of the
State. The alliance between them has been one formed and
maintained upon equal terms ; and if it be attempted, as ap-
pears to be the intention, to place all ecclesiasticol affairs
under the control of Downing-street, and to subject them to
the same species of discipline that is enforced in Prussia over
the religious establishments there, I tell the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman that the people of this country will never endure
such a system. This alone is a sufficient ground with me
to oppose the Bill now before the House. I will not say that
this Bill has been introduced into this House in a sinister
and insidious manner, though I, in common with others,
have formed my conclusions upon that point; but I will as-
sert, what I believe cannot be denied, that the measure has
taken the country by surprise. But I have other reasons
fur opposing this measure.—( Hear, hear.) I oppose this
Bill on account of the manner in which it has been introduced,
and I oppose it also on account of the men by whom it has
been brought forward.—(Loud cheers.) I am perfectly ready
to meet those cheers, and I do so by declaring, that I do not
think--putting totally out of view the other objections which I
entertain—that the men who are now seated on the Treasury
tench are morally entitled to bring such a measure forward.
This measure, Sir, involves a principle against which the Right
Hon. Gentleman and most of his colleagues have all along most
signally struggled.—( Hear, hear.) When I recal to mind all
the speeches, and all the motions, and all the votes which have
emanated from the present occupants of the Treasury bench on
this and analogous questions—when I remember their opposi-
tion to that system of education which they now seek to pro-
mote—when I recollect the procession of prelates going up to
the palace of the Sovereign to protest against analogous mea-
sures with those which those who incited this proceeding are
now urging forward—when I recal to mind all the the dis-
cussions which have taken place here on the subject of Irish
education—when the appropriation clause presents itself to my
momory—( Loud cheers)—l consider it would be worse than
useless to dwell at any length upon the circumstances which
induce me to adopt this opinion. And are we to be told,
that because those men who took the course to which I have
referred have crossed the floor of this House, and have aban-
doned with their former seats their former professions—are
we to bet told that these men's measures and actions are to
remain uncriticised and unopposed, because they tell us to
look to the merits of their measures, and to forget them-
selves and their former protestations ? ( Loud cheers.) Such
pretensions naturally lead to the question whether party, as
a political instrument, is or is not to continue to govern the
discussions of this House ?—( Hear, hear.) This question
touches the whole policy of the Ministry. Let us, therefore,
grapple with it, and decide what our future course shall be in
this respect. Let us endeavour to put an end to the miscon-
ception and subterfuge which now surround us. I am perfectly
contented to place the question upon this footing. Now, Sir,
it is very easy to complain of party Government, and there may
be persons capable of forming an opinion on this subject who
may entertain a deep objection to that Government, and know
to what that objection leads.—(Hear, hear.) But there are
others who shrug their shoulders, and talk in a slipshod style
on this head, who, perhaps, are not exactly aware of what that
objection leads to. These persons should understand, that if
they object to party Government they do, in fact, object to no-
thing more nor lees than Parliamentary Gevernment.—(Loud
cheers.) A popular assembly without parties-500 isolated
individuals—cannot stand five years against a Minister with an
organised Government without becoming a servile senate.—
(Loud cheers.) The objectors to party Government may
have a good case, on the merits of which I give no opinion.
They may say, " Here are we the Parliament of England;
we have had the virtual sovereignty of this country for a
century and a half ; we have plunged the country in debt,
and we can't pay it ; we have done more than patri-
cian Rome in its most rapacious hour. We have mort-
gaged industry to protect property ; we have passed laws
on the currency which have affected property more than all the
tampering of the coinage by all the sovereigns that have ever
existed; we have violently assailed, and now still more enor-
mously menace, the parochial constitution of the country, and,
having differed on every other subject, we have at length
agreed on one point, that with relation to the civilization, the
wealth, and luxury that surround them, the people of England
arc the hardest worked and the worst fed, the most miserable
and degraded population in the world.—(Loud cheers.) This
is the case of those who are opposed to party Government.
Well, let them carry out their principle ; let them vote an ad-
dress to the Crown, go up to Buckingham Palace, fall on their
knees before our Sovereign Lady, and restore to her the pre-
rogatives which they have so long usurped and so injuriously
used.—(Loud cheers and laughter.) But for the Right lion.
Gentleman, even a pedant in favour of Parliamentary power,
who, First Minister of tho Crown, declares he is ready to go to
war to-morrow with the Lord Chief Justice of England in be-
half of your privileges—who is jealous of the slightest inter-
ference with your business or your duties, even if you cannot
transact or perform them—who enjoins the youth of England
not to make brilliant speeches, but to work on railway corn-
mittees—(Laughter)—for him to set up for one who would be
independent of Parliament and party, is indeed astonishing.—
( Cheers.) The Noble Lord opposite, the hereditary leader of
the Whig party, who founded Parliamentary Government in
this country, will, I am sure, not withhold his concurrence with
the principles I have laid down. That Noble Lord, the re-
presentative of Mr. Fox, will not gainsay the motto of that
great leader—" Men, and not measures." And how has the
opposite system answered? You have permitted men to gain
power and enter place, aed then carry measures exactly the
reverse to those which they professed in opposition, and they
carry these measures by the very means and machinery by
which they conducted the opposition, and by which theygained
power.—(Cheers.) And you are reconciled to this. pro-
cedure by being persuaded that by carrying measures which
you disapprove of, and they pretend to disrelish, they are
making what they call " the best bargain" for you. I
say that the Parliamentary course, under the usual cit.
cumstanees, is for this House to have the advantage
of a Government formed on distinct principles, and of
its consequence, a constitutional Opposition ; and yet here is a
Minister who now habitually brings forward as his own mea-
sures those very schemes and proposals to which, when in op-
position, he always avowed himself a bitter and determined op-
penent.—(Loud cheers.) He brings in Canada Bills, he brings
in Maynooth Bills, he uses expressions and excites feelings still
more objectionable than the measures; but, let me ask the
admirers of the best bargain system, how they think the Right
Hon. Gentleman would have acted had they been introduced
by the Noble Lord opposite ?—(Loud and prolonged cheers.)
Why, then those Bills would have been at least checked by the
Oppositien, by the constitutional Opposition ; the questions
would have been criticised, they would have been opposed ; in
the case of the College of Maynooth, I grant it may have been
factiously opposed ; but this opposition is a necessary conse-
quence of a Parliamentary Government. In what situation
are we placed now ?—(Hear.) Up come all these petitions;
in them we hear the loud murmurs of the people, because
there is no exponent of the national opinion in this House,
while we have a Government which came into power by an
organisation prepared to oppose such measures now engaged
in carrying them.—( Loud cheers.) How can we accuse
the Opposition? I may on constitutional grounds say, the
Noble Lord (Lord John Russell) ought to oppose the
measure, though he approves it, because it is thus brought
forward • the people find that the men who now occupy
the High places of the Government support measures
they were brought into power politically and personally to op-
pose ; it is for those who act on another set of principles to op-
pose the Government ; but we have not a Government formed
on distinctive principles, consequently we have no constitu-
tional Opposition to keep the Government in check. Now, I
hope it will not be said, because I have made these observations,
which are in entire and complete relation and affinity to the
motion before the House, that I am " bandying personalities."
Certainly we live in strange times, when Parliamentary criti-
cism on a person in so eminent a position as the First Minister
of the Crown is to be stopped by his declaring it personality,
when it is but fair observation on the character and conduct of
a public man—( Hear, hear.)—whose career is open to US,
with respect to whom we have a right to draw the inferences
we think legitimate ; and if they are not just they may be con•
travened in free discussion. I do not know what the House
thinks of this system of putting down Parliamentry discussion;
it is not a very new experiment ; it has been tried in—l will
not say another House, for that must not be referred to—but
it has been tried in what is called " another place."—(Great
laughter.) I do not know whether the position occupied by
"another place" in the public estimation and the
public eye is one of which the Members of the
House of Commons are particularly ambitious.— (Cheers and
laughter.) I remember when we used to toast

" another place " with three times three and nine
times nine— ( Laughter) ;—" another place " was once
a favourite toast at all Conservative dinners—( Laugh-
ter) —where is the independence of "another place" now?—
t„ otyh
( Great cheering.) It is not Radicalism, it is not the revohi-
in
srpiiprlaitce,o,ftothites
illillutshtriocuens tiunrsyi,gniwfilciaiinete_h? consigned
another
Cheers and
laughter)—it is Conservatism and a Conservative dictator.—
(Cheers. ) Are you prepared to meet the same fate? Every
time a Member expresses any opinions not absolutely agreeable
to the Minister of the day, is he to be stopped by a charge of
bandying personall,ies ?" Whenever the young teen of Eng-
land allude to any great principles of political life or Parlia-
mentary conduct., are they to he recommended to go to a railway
committee?—( Cheers and laughter.) I have no doubt it
would be very agreeable if this House was in the same condi-
tion, especially with regard to this Bill, as "another place."
I know that the Members of this House are different, that the
characters of the individuals who would control us are different ;
but the process with both bodies, although it varies, is in re-
sult the same. It may break the spirit in " another place,"
and it may lower the tone in this ; " another place" may be
drilled into a guard-room, and the House of Commons may
be d, graded into a vestry.—(Cheers and laughter.) But the
consequence is exactly similar, and that consequence will be,
that you will have Bills like this Maynooth Bill, and that still
more important measure which, after the admission of
the Right Hon. Member for Newark, may be looked on as
a fact, if not accomplished, yet ascertained, introduced,
and carried through this House, and of course through
" another place ;" and you may have the floor of this House
covered with petitions, and the lobby of "another place"
erowded with the constituents who have left us in despair;
hut, whatever may be the degree of public feeling, whatever
may be the depth of the national sentiment, if you choose
I to support a Government that announces no distinctive prin-
ciples, which is in turn supported by an Opposition that does
not oppose, I am certain there is no spirit and no nation that
can resist a " cross" so deeply laid and so deliberately ac-
complished.—(Loud cheers.) This Maynooth Bill is intro-
duced instead of the Irish Registration Bill—(Cheers)—the
necessity for which was as apparent when the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman was in opposition as it is now ; the necessity for which
was doubly apparent when the Right lion. Gentleman assumed
the reins of office, and equally apparent as it is now; but
which is brought in after a four years' experiment of lowering
your tone, and working that, constitutionally, by means of a
Whig opposition.—( Cheers.) We have had this Bill brought
in after a four years' experiment; and during those four
years what has the Conservative party endured? What has
it experienced? What is the treatment it has been obliged
to submit to, till the thing was so ripe that even your mur-
murs are not noticed? This Bill brings affairs to a crisis ;
the question is not to be decided on its merits ; it is to be
decided on the fact—who are the men who bring it forward ?
If you are to have a popular Government, if you aro to
have a Parliamentary Administration, the conditions an-
tecedent are, that you should have a Government which
declares the principles upon which its policy is founded, and
then you can have on them the wholesome check of a constitu-
tional opposition. What have we got instead ? -Something
has risen up in this country as fatal in the political world as it
has been in the landed world of Ireland—we have a great Par-
liamentary middleman.—(lmmense cheering.) It is well
known what a middleman is—(Cheers and laughter)—He is a
man who bamboozles one party, and plunders the other—(A.
laugh) —till, having obtained a position to which he is not en-
titled, he cries out, " Let us have no party questions, but
fixity of tenure."—( Laughter and cheers.) I want to have a
commission issued to inquire into the tenure by which Down-
ing-street is held.—( Loud cheers.) I want to know whether
the conditions of entry have been complied with, and whether
there are not some covenants in the lease which are already for-
feited ?—( Cheers and laughter.) I hope I shall not be an-
swered by _Hansard.— (Cheers. ) I am not surprised the Right
Hun. Gentleman should be so fond of recurring to that great
authority ; he has great advantages ; he can look over a record
of thirty, and more than thirty years of an eminent career.
But that is not the lot of every one, and I may say, as a general
rule, I am rather surprised (especially when the Maynooth
question is concerned), that experienced statesmen should
like to recur to that eminent publication.—( Hear, hear.)
What, after all, does one see on looking over a quarter of a
century or more even of one's own speeches in Hansard?
What dreary pages of interminable talk, what predic-
tions falsified, what pledges broken, what calculations
that have gone wrong, what budgets that have blown up !
And all this, too, not relieved by a single original thought, a
single generous impulse, or a single happy expression! Why
Hansard, instead of being the Delphi of Downing-street, is
but the Dunciasi of politics.—(Cheers and laughter.) But I
want something more than quotations from Hansard to account
for how parties have been managed in this House ; it is so
matter of fact and yet w fallacious, taking in every body, though
every body knows he is deceived ; so mechanical, and yet so
31achiavelian, that I can hardly say what it is, except a hum-
drum hocus pocus, in which the order of the day is read to
take in a nation.—(Cheers and laughter.) Now, the system
is to be brought to a test to-night. Will the House support
the Government in a measure which, according to the highest
authority,—one who has quitted the Cabinet for some reason
that has not been given, and who, probably, may join it again
under circumstances equally obscure—(Cheers),—is, in fact,
an endowment for the Roman Catholic priesthood of Ireland ?
If any vote were at stake in which the social and political
equality of the Roman Catholic population was concerned, I
would go as far as any man in the Mouse, and perhaps further
than many. But, Sir, no one pretends that this is now the ques-
tion. The grounds on which I oppose this motion are not those
of hostility to their claims, but grounds which they themselves,
after the clamour of the moment, must feel are legitimate ones.
I cannot admit the plea ad misericordiani, founded on
the state of Maynoeth. Surely men of high spirit and
bearing cannot for a moment bring themselves to suppose
that we shall be induced to vote for the measure on this plea ;
it would be an insult to them to suppose so. I know there are
Roman Catholic colleges, well organised and well ordered, that
are not in the condition of Maynooth ; there are sectarian
colleges in England with larger revenues even than those now
proposed to be given by the Government in support of Roman
Catholic principles. What sustains them? The sympathy of
their co-religionists.—(Hear, hear.) I cannot believe, there-
fore, that those gentlemen will, upon reflection, be anxious
that this Bill should pass. I do not think it a measure either
flattering to their pride or solacing to their feelings ; I do not
think it either a great or a liberal measure. The Right Hon.
Gentleman is a supreme master of Parliamentary tactics, and
when he found he was not receiving front the seats behind him
the once abundant chorus of applause to which he was accus-
tomed, he went forward to the red box, and saying, " I know
this is a great grant to Maynooth," obtained the assent of
several Hon. Gentlemen of the Opposition to the assertion.
But if the Right Hon. Gentleman's principle is correct, I
think it is not a great grant; I think it is a mean, a meagre,
and a miserable grant. If the Roman Catholic priesthood are
to be educated by the State, it must be something greater
than the difference between 23/. and 28/., something higher
than the difference between three in a bed or two.—( Hear.
hear.) That is not the way, under any circumstances, in
which I would approach a reverend priesthood. I cannot
believe, therefore, that the Roman Catholic gentlemen, on
reflection—and 1 hope they will have time for reflection--
will vote for this measure, when they consider what it is.
Who are they who introduce it ? They are the same indi-
viduals whose black shade fell on the sunshine of your hopes
for more than half a century—they are those who arrested
the progress and fruition of those hopes for more than five-and-
twenty years. Will not these considerations affect you ?
What if it be a boon ? I deny that it is one—but if it were
asueecehpat biot—onnaestitfriosmsaihdim who,to be, wouultgedydouena,ecept it from hands
polluted ?—( Hear, hear.) It is not from him you ought to
admitted, by a fatal State necessity, accompaniedas
he reluctantly
re
the
l ly
ta
n..
cesssion of your legitimate political claims by the niggardly
uccnot
avowal that he was obliged to concede them.—( Hear, hear. )
As to the Whigs, I ant almost in despair of appealing to their
hereditary duties, their constitutional convictions, or their
historical position ; but I should have thought that the Noble
Lord opposite was almost weary of being dragged at the
triumphal car of a conqueror who did not conquer him in fair
fight. I think the Noble Lord might have found some inspira-
tion in the writings of that great man whom he has so often
quoted, and whose fame he so attempts to emulate. I should
have thought that in the position of the Noble Lord—and he
has a thoughtful mind and a noble spirit—Mr. Fox would have
taken that course, which I think the Noble Lord, touched
by his high position, and the responsibility of that position, will
still take. His party may have fallen, but it still is one con-
nected with the history of this country. Other parties have
also fallen; they have been re-constructeci, and they have been
destroyed. The Noble Lord is not in so fallen a position as that
degraded
conditions position
whichsition
l againbel i
in which the Right Hon. Gentleman vras in 18.31. But let the
Noble Lord beware of this, let him beware of rising from
that
—( Hear.) They may bring some short-lived success, hut
upon
this,—let
the
Lord would disdain, —( Hear, hear.) But, Sir, if with re-
regard to this measure respecting Maynoeth I do not despair
by the same system of tactics.
gallant spirit of the Noble
of the aid of the Roman Catholic gentry of Ireland, or of the
Whigs of England, or of those who oppoie the measure on ex-
clusive Protestant principles, I think I may the more certainly
depend on the support of those who oppose this measure, be-
cause it seeks to pervert principles which it seeks hereafter
to distrust, because it seeks to lower the tone of this country
and to change the national character of England.—( Bear,
hear.) But, whatever may be the various motives and im-
pulses which animate these different sections of opinion, there
is at least one common ground for co-operationt ere is one
animating principle which is likely to inspire us all. Let us in
this House re-echo that which I believe to be the sovereign
sentiment of this country ; let us tell the people in high places
that cunning is not caution, and that habitual perfidy is not
high policy of state. On that ground we may all join. Let
us bring back to this House that which it has for so long a time
past been without—the legitimate influence and salutary check
of a constitutional Opposition.—(Cheers.) That is what the
country requires, what the country looks for. Let us do it at
once in the only way in which it can be done, by dethroning
this dynasty of deception, by putting an end to the into-
lerable yoke of official despotism and Parliamentary imposture.
Mr. ROEBUCK said, he approached this question with con-
siderable apprehension as to whether he would be able ade-
quately to explain the opinions he held upon it and the reasons
for his vote. He felt this the more because it appeared to him
f what they had heard to-night that all considera-
tiens of national welfare would be forgotten in petty private
dthaantge this hisro wasm a great national question, and that there was
pique, and personal feeling.— (Cheers. ) lie did not like on
y personal nature
other introduced to disturb three considerations which must of
• that House, and at that time, excite
necessity in great anxiety
a question like this to see feelings of a merely
in the minds of all men who felt that they had a great duty to
perform to the people, and who did not forget the interests of
Hear,
he would for the momentmake '
the people in considerations concerning themselves.—(H
hear.) And here one passing
remark of a critical character. He could not congratulate the
Hon. Member for Shrewsbury on the effect of the matter of
his speech ; it certainly had not been characterised by any of
that remarkable talent which was necessary to bear away the
open malice which it evinced.—(Hear, hear.) That speech
was certainly poor in its performance, however malicious in
its motives.—( Hear, hear.) It was said to be something
by
one who was himself worthy of praise; so
accused of inconsistency by one who was him-
self
same charge. _ Even if he (Mr. Roebuck)
weree be
unwilling to use towards the Hon. Member those hard
it ve onlswhnardto
o praised
to
be
the
words which seemed to stand in the place of wit on this occa-
sion, the argument, if argument it could be called, which
amount to? Why, the Right Hon. Baronet
formed the sum and substance of the Hon. Gentleman's speech,
could be retorted on the Hon. Gentleman himself. What did
w(atisenaor,t ohnelayr.a)
that
heldhy, it
former
opinions, and that with the
his
change of times he had changed opinions. The Hon. Gen-
tlemano the same
coTnhsteitgurteioant al
modeleq)-
charge, himself was open t
bhaisdeihnarge
What was the
sort of constitutional opposition to which the Hon. 11Iember at
Rriegmeasinflontieur!?l—Boiareoari,.e,t.healr-1.7 camelf,inhdeeetdh,eshei?s
posi
1 of his Parliamentary care was at one time the Hon. Member
for Montrose. Commebnenfg e ,vith these aspirations, he was
shortly afterwards to found in in open opposition behind the
one.
ttfomne
That was a natural question.iere An equally natural one was,
butas p formeriam tunes
dl
been for ott
brilliant merits have g hn, and the
e liberal
Right Ho-
nourable Baronet has denined thought of measures and not
of men—(Cheers and ghter)—then, indeed, we may
bwahcyk
do fi d the
he
understand the position of the Hon. Member and his unfortu-
nate of mind—unfortunate, perhaps,
nate state only because he has
never had afforded to him the opportunity of " coming below
the gangway."—(Cheers.) But, he asked, were not these
miserable displays on such a question ?—( Hear.) When they
had the country from one end to the other excited by the
deepest and strongest feelings respecting their religious belief
and expectations, was it not deeply
to be regretted that they

had had their minds turned from the great object of the debate
B to these petty feelings and considerations? and he did hope the
• House would pardon him if he endeavoured to forget all con -
• sideration of the immediate amusement which might be de-
• I rived from malice in the guise of wit —( Hear)—and left it at
I once for the more serious subjects involved in the question.—
( Hear.) It was a question which must be regarded as of
• great importance on that (the Opposition) side of the House;
for it involved not merely the quiet of Ireland, but also the
quiet and well-being of England ; and perhaps, without
aggeration, he might say, the quiet of the world at large.—
. ( Hear, hear.) It was because he viewed the question in this
light, arid because the country generally, and his constituents
• in particular, were deeply stirred by conscientious scruples in
connexion with it, that he approached it with such feelings of
doubt and anxiety. If the question came before them now,
' for the first time, it would assume a very different aspect.
But, however easy it might be to laugh at the word "cir-
cumstances," he could not shut out from his view the present
condition of Ireland and of this country when he came to con-
sider the course he should take on this measure. " Circum-
stances " might be cited often, as indeed might " principles,"
without much care being felt for either one or the other. But
when he looked at the state of Ireland, and at the circum-
stances under which they were called upon to vote on this
question, he must say that it behoved them to place themselves
above the agitation around them, to set an example to those
whom they represented—( Hear, hear)—to do their duty boldly,
and, whatever might be the result, to act up to their view of
what was right and proper, and likely to conduce to the wel-
fare of this great community.—( Loud cheers.) Now, looking
at the grant then proposed by the Right Hon. Gentleman at
the head of the Government, he had no hesitation in saying
that he, for one, was prepared to support it. He would go
one step further, and declare that if the Right Hon. Gentle-
man had come down to the House to propose a grant, and
they were for the moment excluding all recollection of any
money having been formerly granted for the same purpose,
he (Mr. Rot buck) would at once close with the offer. But
he would take the ease as it was first presented to them. A
purely Protestant Parliament in Ireland endowed, as it was
termed, though he objected to the word, the Roman Catholic
College of illaynooth. An annual grant was made by a Par-
liament exclusively Protestant and composed wholly of the
rich, and that grant was continued up to the time of the union.
At the period of the union a purely Protestant Parliament re-
peated the vote. Various Ministers came into power ; political
parties of various descriptions took office; and under all this
grant was continued. He wanted the House, however, to re-
mark particularly the circumstances under which a grant was
first made to the College of Maynooth. This took place in
1795, at a time when the Protestant feared the Catholic less
than he feared the principles of France, when he would rather
see in every parish in Ireland a Catholic priest, a follower of the
religion of Christ, than an emissary of the Jacobin Club in
Paris, or a follower of Robespierre. During the existence of the
Reign of Terror, they applied themselves to the task of con-
ciliating the Catholics, and to secure their assistance in the
battle which they were fighting, this grant was made. As time
went on the parties in the contest changed. Napoleon, it
it is true, established Catholicity in France, but it was sup-
posed that he aimed at universal dominion, and Ireland was re-
quired to send forth thousands of gallant soldiers to tight the
great battle that was then going on between France and Eng-
land. In the year 1808 the principle of the grant was again
mooted, and again discussed, and they added to the grant that
was originally made. They found a purely Protestant Parlia-
ment acting in this way, for its own purposes, under all Mi-
nistries, up to the year 1829. In that year the Roman Catho-
lics were, as it was termed, emancipated, and entered into the
composition both of that and the other House of Parliament.
The grant to Maynooth was again renewed, and was continued
up to the time of the Reform Act. Now, it might, and proba-
bly would, be said that the doings of an aristocratic Govern-
ment were not those with which they could have much sympa-
thy, it being notorious that an aristocracy consulted only its
own convenience and its own selfish interests. But after the
year 1832 the Parliament was one which represented the great
body of Dissenters in this country ; and from that time to the
present had the grant been continued.—( Hear, hear.) What
he had to say on this subject he wished to address to his consti-
tuents and to the people out of doors. They had for
the last twelve years sanctioned this grant—they had sanc-
tioned the principle of it up to the present hour; and they
could not, therefore, now turn round and tell their represen-
tatives, whilst they suddenly startled their ears with a sort of
ecclesiastical trumpet—(Laughter)—that Protestantism was
in daily and hourly , peril on account of this grant.
(Cheers.) They had seen the former grant made, not only
without remonstrance, but with applause; and if the grant
had been made for twelve years by four successive Parliaments,
with different Administrations in power, the principle being
the same as regarded the religious question whether the grant
were 8,0001. or 26,0001., they could not be suddenly called
upon to recede from the principle on which the grant bad hi-
therto been made.—( Hear, hear.) Some complaint had been
made against the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir R. Peel) on ac-
count of his stating that there were but three courses open. It
would not be denied that it was exceedingly useful to look at
the real position in which they were placed. That matters
should remain in their present position every one acknow-
ledged to be impossible. It was admitted that the present
position of Maynooth could not continue, first, by the Hon.
Member for the University of Oxford, ho had always con-
sistently been opposed to the grant; and secondly, by those
who had had a new light brought into their minds by the
proposed extension of it. Hon. Members on that side of the
House who supported the policy of the Government con-
tended, that the providing for the proper education of
the Roman Catholic priesthood of Ireland was of the highest
moment, as being calculated to make them feel that they were
not aliens from the country of their birth. They felt that it
was desirable to do all in their power to create in the minds of
the Irish priesthood feelings of affection for the Government,
and associations of pleasure in connexion with the place in
which they were educated, instead of associations of insult and
indignity.—( Hear, hear.) It must be recollected that the in-
stitutions of this country were not in any case paltry or mean,
because they were unable to make them otherwise. They
were, in fact, for the most part, distinguished by magnificence
and liberality ; and if Maynooth were treated in a different
manner it would be attributed not to an inability, but to un-
willingness to provide proper support. The Roman Catholic
clergy had in many cases endured poverty and privation in car-
rying what they believed to be the truth from one end of the
globe to the other ; and if it were necessary, he believed they
would at all times cheerfully assist in bearing public burdens.
But when they found all the appliances of wealth exerted in
other cases and withheld in their own, they naturally felt that
they did not enjoy their due share of the sympathy of England.
What course, then, could the House pursue ? Why, they
must either get rid of the grant altogether, or accede to the
motion of the Right Hon. Gentleman. His only objection to
that motion was, that it did not go far enough.—( Hear,
bear.) He had hoped that the Right Honourable Gentle-
man would have proposed a broad scheme of academical edu-
cation, making Maynooth a Roman Catholic University, simi-
lar to Oxford and Cambridge, with the power of conferring de-
grees, so that the clergy and the gentry might equally
have availed themselves of its benefits. Had that course
been pursued, he believed no more hostility would have been
exhibited to that proposal than the present.—( Hear, hear. )
Now, there were two classes of objectors to this measure. The
first class, with whom he deeply sympathised, opposed the
grant on the voluntary principle, objecting to the endowment
of any religion by the State. They said, that at the present
moment the Established Church was the monster grievance of
Ireland, and they objected to what they called the setting up
of a Roman Catholic Church establishment as equally objec-
tionable. But he contended that this was not the setting up
of another establishment, but a contribution towards the educa-
tion of Ireland contribution in the best form towards the
teaching of the only teachers of the Irish people.—( Hear, hear.)
He regretted that the measure of the Right Hon. Gentleman
was so inadequate to that object ; but he supported it as an
approach towards national education ; and he would do's° if, in
place of being intended for the benefit of their fellow Christians
in Ireland, it were designed for Jews or Mahomedans.—( Hear,
hear.) Did they not contribute towards the teaching of the
Brahmin priests in India, and of the Roman Catholic priests in
Canada?—(Hear, hear.) In Canada there was a priesthood
endowed by Act of Parliament, and not. one word had been
said on the score of a violation of conscience. In fact, an Hon.
Member had that evening admitted, that without this it would
be impossible to maintain their colonial dominion. The ques-
tion of principle, it appeared, had no influence when interest
was concerned.—( Hear, hear.) Then they put the principle
in their pockets and sanctioned the endowment, as it was called,
of the Roman Catholic religion.—( Hear, hear.) He did not
object to this, he acknowledged the reason for it, and thought
it a sufficient one ; but why not apply the same argument to
Ireland ? —( Hear, hear.) If it could be shown that there were
in Ireland reasons for believing that they would conciliate the
people, that they would very much contribute to the harmony
of the whole people by continuing and increasing this grant,
how came it that it had the opposition of persons who could
concede to this principle for the purposes of colonial religion ?
The truth was, that there was not a single hour of any one of
their legislative days that they did not break a principle. He
supported the grant on the ground that we were of necessity
obliged, so far as the religious teaching of the people was con-
cerned, to be for the moment passive. We must contribute
as well as we could to the due education of the people in
the faith which they held, and in which we had not a
right to interfere; all that the State had to inquire into
was, were they good citizens ?—( Hear, hear.) And, there-
fore, going from one end of the world to the other—to
Canada, to India, to Malta, to the West Indies in
fact, through the whole of our foreign possessions, we found
that this was the system pursued; but, on turning to Ireland,
he supported the measure on the ground of conciliation. He
had once beard an observation made by a Right Hon. Gentle-
man opposite, " that we bad come to the end of conciliation."
He was not going to quarrel with any change of opinion which
experience might have wrought on the minds of Right Hon.
Gentlemen opposite, but he considered that within the last
two years a great change had taken place with regard to the
government of Ireland. We had adopted a different system to
that which had prevailed almost during the recollection of every
man in that *House ; and he considered this, the last proposed
act of the Right Hon. Gentleman, a most marked step in the
progress of this system of concession—a conquest over every
successive Ministry that had governed Ireland since the passing
of the Reform Bill. It had sealed upon it the doctrine of con-
cession, and both the great parties of this country were
now endeavouring to make all necessary concessions to
Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) He took this measure as one
great step 'in that concession, not because (as had
been asked) they, expected all these great conse-
quences from this paltry concession—from the difference
between 9,0001. and 28,0001. a year—for he did not expect
this. He might be asked, did he expect the priestood of Ire-
land to be bribed to our service by such means ? His answer
was, he did not want to do that • but he wanted to make the
people feel that the system was changed,—that we were endea-
vouring to do justice to that unfortunate people. Though he did
not expect great results—though he did not hope that the priests
might he established in that country immediately, yet he did
hope that when this great measure was communicated in ;all
its circumstances, the very opposition to it marking how strong
was the necessity on the Right Hon. Gentleman's mind of such
a proposition, this concession would convince the leaders of
the Irish people, and address itself to their calm and thinking
minds and generous feelings, and that their leaders and those
who wished to excite them for purposes of personal ambition
would not have them, as they now had, so thoroughly at
command and beck. He took this as the greatest boon that
had been conferred, not upon the people of Ireland, but upon
the people of England ; for we might depend upon it, that if
assailed to-morrow from abroad, and we were to refuse
this grant, the insulted people of Ireland would recollect
the insult. They had been told by many ardent persons
that the religion of the Irish was a supestitution and
moral, and parts of their books had been brought forwardim-
moral,
e it • and that to endow this college
.w.as to endow. a
prov ,
col-
lege to teach immorality and superstition. The insulted
people of Ireland would recollect this; and we should find our
danger came not so much from abroad as it was at home. Our
chief enemies would be at home, and we should be weak, and
open to the insults of the world, because we had been unjust
to one-third of our countrymen. It was upon this great ground
that he maintained the grant proposed by the Right Hon.
Gentleman. Look at the condition of Ireland at the present
moment. Suppose that at the present moment England was
in the same situation, and Ireland in a situation totally at
variance with its present condition of great depression. Sup.
pose they could find some Saxon demagogue—some William
Long-beard to appeal to the oppressed Saxon and point to his
Norman spoliator, and appeal to what was in the memory of
many living men, and speak of the desolation which was spread
through the land, of cabins burnt, of fields laid waste, and of
thousands of people turned out to starve; suppose, then,
he could point to the scene of the patient and deserving
priest, careless of danger, and wealth, and power,

going to hese people thus beaten down and trodden
to the earth, and ministering to them courageously
and bravely all the religious comforts which their condition
demanded—suppose a demagogue in England could say these
things, would England be quiet undo r such circumstances ?
woul t she not rise up as one man and put down the op-
pressor ?—( Hear, hear.) And had riot the Irish people
the same feelings and power as we had? And were we to
forget that this hypothetical case which he was putting was
actually the case in Ireland? Mr. O'Connell regarded the
proposition of the Right Hon. Baronet as a " bidding" against
him ; he (Mr. O'Canriell) knew very well that if justice were
done to Ireland, Ireland would no longer seek to be divided
from us, but would be our right hand in the time of war,
and our friendly ally in the time of peace. Taking into con-
sideration the religious and moral aspect of Ireland, he would
ask if the proposed grant could be considered in any other
light than as a donation given to the people in the best form ?
If he were asked the mode in which he (mild do the greatest
good at the least possible cost, he should say it would be by
educating the Irish priests. It would be a contribution made
in the best form for educating the Irish people. The grant
was objected to on the score of religious principle. These
arguments were difficult to reply to, and for the most part
he could not understand them. They eluded his under.
standing altogether. He was told the objection was that the
teaching at Maynooth was a teaching of error, and they
objected to support such teaching. He had in his hand a
very remarkable report of a speech made at Liverpool.
Ile wished to call the attention of the House to observations
made upon the present question, by a reverend gentleman at
Liverpool (as we anderstood). He really felt it necessary
to beg pardon of the House for bringing upon them a mode
of treating the present question which was in all respects
so objectionable, but yet the manner in which the reve-
rend gentleman discussed this matter was, in its way, very
striking. He said—" Was God's word to be practically
supreme, or not ?" and then he went on to observe,
that though no part of the Bible was obscure, cer-
tainly not unintelligible ; yet there were some pictures
of the sacred Scriptures to characterised by extreme clearness,
that to doubt their meaning was little less than to deny the use
of the Bible itself. The Bible prohibited the bowing down to
graven images, it prohibited adultery, it p ohibited theft.
Then he added that inasmuch as Parliament would not think
of endowing a college for promoting adaery or theft, so
they ought nut to endow a college which inculcated the prac-
tice of bowing down to graven images. Now he would ap-
peal to Hon. Members to say, if that was the manner in
which such a question as the present ought to be argued—
could he or any Member be fairly called upon to meet such
arguments ? For his part, he should not attempt to do any-
thing of the sort. Neither should he seek to answer those
who affirmed that their views of that which was the truth
ought alone to be accepted as the truth. Who should say
what was the truth as compared with the opinions of other
men? For the reasons, then, which he had stated, he gave to
the grant his most cordial support.
Lord NORTHLAND next rose, but owing to the con-
fusion which prevailed in the House, the few observations
which the Noble Lord made were nearly inaudible. He was
understood to say that he felt great regret at being thus
obliged, for the first time, to differ from her Majesty's Go-
vernment.

On the motion of Mr. HAWES the debate was then ad•
journed.

AUCTION DUTIES REPEAL BILL.

The Auction Duties Repeal Bill was read a second time, and
ordered to be committed on Monday.
The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and the
House adjourned at Half-past Twelve o'clock.

THE MURDER AT
HAMPSTEAD.

TRIAL OF MOCKER.

CENTRAL CRIMINAL COURT.

OLD COURT.
The examination ofJaines Hocker (continued from our
Afternoon Edition of yesterday)—He said he had got
rather more than he expected. When he took off his coat,
I saw that the sleeve of his shirt was torn. He said that
he had been with Sarah Cox and her brother, and had
got it torn in romping. I never knew who Sarah Cox
was. The next morning he came over to breakfast., and
gave his father a sovereign, his mother one also, and
paid me a half-sovereign he hai owed me for four or
five months. I had lent it to him as he was out of em-
ployment. lie had been out altogether for seven months.
On the Saturday night Mr. Watson was in our house,
and we had some conversation about the murder. Mr.
Watson said it was an awful thing; and I said I heard
some people talking about it outside. My brother said
we had met to enjoy ourselves, and that was a gloomy
subject to talk upon. On Sunday, after coming from chapel,
my brother asked me to stay in a littlelonger. Idid so. On
the same night I read an account of the murder at a
friend's house, and saw that a letter, addressed James
Cooper, Hampstead, was Eund in the pocket of the
deceased. I had seen my brother address letters to De-
larue by the name of Cooper. On the succeeding morning,
I woke my brother, and asked him if he knew who was
murdered at Hampstead ? He said, no ; and I told him
it was poor Delarue He was much agitated, and said
poor Delarue! I then went to my father's, and returned '
to Victoria-terrace almost Immediately, when I observed
that my brother had been crying. Afterwards, iN hen in
my father's house, my father said he thought it was his
duty to go to see the body. He said he would go. Soon
after my mother came in, and said that the body had
been owned by the brother. My brother then said he
should not be required, and would not go to see the body.
My brother showed me a watch. I had been told long
before that he had sold or pledged a watch fur Delarue.
He gave me to understand that he had redeemed a watch
which had been pledged, and I thought the one he
showed me was the watch. The watch I ee here is the
one he showed me. I recollect the officer Scotney coming
into our room. My brother let him in. Scotney asked
me if I had a watch. I said no ; and then he asked
my brother if he had one. He looked confused,
and attempted to reply. I interposed, and my brother
then went to the pillow and gave Scotney the watch.
He also brought him a watch case, and brought forward
three duplicates, one for a watch, one for a ring, and one
for a chain. I was surprised at seeing the duplicate for the
watch, but my brother said the watch he showed me
only came there on Friday morning. I did not
see the watch in the course of Friday. I be-
lieve my brother was on intimate terms with
Delarue, sometimes seeing each other two or three times
a day Mr four days in the week. I recollect that my
brother brought home some three or four pounds, and
said that Delarue lent it to him. My brother was a
schoolmaster, and could write very well. I don't know
that this note is in my brother's handwriting, but it may
be. He could write two or three hands.
Cross-examined by Mr. CLARKSON—I saw Delarue for the
first time about four months ago just at dusk. I have heard
my brother address him as Mr. Cooper. My father and
mother were aware that my brother had got money fro:7.
Delarue. lam not aware that my brother had seen Mr.
Delarue on the morning of the 21st. He said that he had
not seen him. I knew that Mr. Delarue was anxious to get
my brother a situation. I always understood that my brother
was very much attached to him. I was working at home
with my father as a shoemaker until past eight o'clock. I
think that about twelve months ago my brother
was paying attentions to a young lady at Hampstead.
lam not aware that she was introduced to Delarue. His
intimacy with her ceased about the month of June. I never
knew her myself. I did not at any time press my brother
for money. I would have been contented to have let it re-
main till he got a situation. lam not aware that Delarue
was in the habit of keeping a school. I did not observe any
marks upon my brother's dress or person on his return on
Saturday morning. There was a light in the room. My
brother is twenty-two years old in May. lam his younger
brother.

Cross-examined by Mr. CHAMBERS—I cannot say how
long it was before the 21st of February that Delarue gave
my brother the ring for which the pawnbroker's duplicate
has been produced

Thomas Hecker examined by Mr. BODKIN.—I am the
father of the prisoner. The prisoner boarded at my house
in Charles-street. He was at home from four till about
half-past, and when he went out he had on a hat and mac-
intosh. He said that he was going to get some money that
he had previously told us off. He said that he had re•
ceived a note from Mrs. Edwards, stating that she weuld be
ready to accede to his request for a loan on Sunday night,
and he went en the Friday instead. (The prisoner's clothes
were p. oduced.) These are the clothes he had on on the
Friday night. The ring I now see I found among the
cuttings of leather, and it was given up to the police.
I remember on the Saturday, after the Friday, seeing the
prisoner's shirt. It was torn, and he accounted for it by say.
ing lie had been frolicking the night before. I did not know
Delarue. I knew that he went by the name of Cooper, and
when I spoke to my son about it, he said that he went by that
name merely because he was eccentric.
William Watson—l am landlord of the house, No. 17,
Charles-street. On the night of the 22d of February 1 was
in company with the prisoner and his father, in the latter's
house, when I said, " This is a shocking murder at Hamp-
stead, and no one knows who did it." The father said, " A
murder at Hampstead, what a shocking thing." The
father then asked how it was done, and I told him
that suspicion attached to three soldiers, who were seen in
that neighbourhood. The father said, oh ! the cold-blooded
rascals. The prisoner said, don't let us talk about that, it's
a gloomy subject. Just then, the brother James came in and
said that everybody was talking of a gentleman murdered at
Hampstead, and a love letter was found in his pocket. The pri-
soner said, don't let's talk any snore about that ; I'll sing you a
song ; then they sung a song. They afterwards sunghias
me
duet ; but before they did so, the prisoner showed
shirt and coat, which was torn on the left a
I first heard d.t
of the
He he
had been romping with a parcel of girls.
gavel information
to murder
Scotney Monday evening.
Edward Scotney, examined by Mr. Bont
in the T division, and in consequence ofius—inlfearmmeatiesnerl-
gean
received from Watson, I went to No. 1 le,iegVictoA rsriap-eterrean came
to got there about ten o'clock in the more
?hea Herd
the..ecleoo;r,la,mndthleaspekreedenif. Tlhoemaiadsllleeopckpeerseli)v,eedu thheevree
saidto )
of the murder of Mr. Delarue at Hampstead? He
said I have. And I said then I believe you were very
intimate with him. He said yes; and I then informed
him that I was a sergeant of police, and that I took
him into custody on suspicion of the murder. I then went
up to his room. His brother was there, and he desired him
to get up and dress. I told him I meant to search for a
watch which I believed belonged to Mr. Delarue. He said,
"You may." His brother said, "Tell the policeman the
truth, Tom, he does not believe you." The prisoner then
pe
r pledget
wh c for he i
said
mad
went to the pillow and gave me the watch out.. He said he
dhuacdecl getthriteeenotFherirdtaicykeints for erninpgro toy h h
Hee
npgr
eo d-
to Delarue.

Francis Partridge examined by Mr. CIIAMBERS—I am an
inspector of the A division. I went on the 25th of February
with Scotney to apprehend the prisoner. I found in the
prisoner's room a pair of trousers between the sacking of the
bed, and a coat. I went on the succeeding day and made a
further search. I found a shirt wristband, with a portion of the
sleeve attached to it There were marks of blood upon it.
I got a pair of trousers and waistcoat at 17, Charles street,
Portland-town, where prisoner lived. There were marks of blood
upon the waistcoat and on the left sleeve of the coat. I
found also bottles containing certain kinds of writing fluid
and note-paper in the room at the father's house. I also
found wafers marked with the letter F. 1 see that the
wafer on this note is a duplicate of those found in the father's
house. The note-paper also corresponds with that found by
me. I received a sovereign and a half from the prisoner's
father.

Inspector Sliackell, of the Detective Police, produced the
mackintosh found in the father's house. In consequence of
certain information, I searched the prisoner's lodgings along
with Inspector Haynes, and got, from the parents of the
prisoner a shirt and pair of stockings, all stained with blood.

i._ .7': i

I also found in the room the bill of the watch, produced find
identified as that belonging to Delarue.
Inspector Ilaynes. of the Detective Police, went with
another officer and searched the room, where he found a
coat button. He afterwards went to the House of Correction
and ordered the prisoner to take off his coat. He found the
sleeve stained with blood, and the left-hand pocket all
bloody, as if the hand had been thrust into it. He compared
the button found in the held, as also that found in the room
with certain buttons torn off his coat, and they agreed. He
also examined the prisoner's trousers and drawers, and die-
covered that the left knee of either was stained with blood.
The prisoner had no wound on any part of his person.
Cross-examined by Mr. CIARKsON—The buttons are of a
very common character, and may be met with every day.
Daniel Delarue examined by Mr. BODKIN—I live at 55,
Whittlebury-street, Euston•square--I lived with my bro-
ther. I have been at the inquest, and saw his body there.
The watch produced was the property of my brother. It
had a gold chain, which he wore round his neck. I alas
know the ring, which I observed him wear on the Sunday I
last saw him.

Susan Kitchener, servant at the house, 53, Whittlebury-
street—l saw Mr. Delarue on Friday, the 21st February.
He said lie was going out, and would return in an hour and
a half. He told me to keep his fire in. I know he had a
watch, and I saw it on him about nine o'clock in the morn-
ing. I saw the gold chain hanging from the pocket as late
as two o'clock. 1 should not know the watch. It was a
silver one.

James Euston, police-constable in the D divison-1 was in
the cell with the prisoner, and he said, without my asking,
that he wished to see the waiter of the Swiss Cottage. I
told him he could see the gaoler. He did see him ; and, after
he was gone, the prisoner said that he had gone to the Swiss
Cottage a quarter of an hour after the murder, that he called
for a glass of rum and water, and paid for it. He said also,
" There, that Baldock did not know me; I was five-and-
twenty minutes in the field." That was just before the first
examination.
Sarah Ann Cox, examined by Mr. CHAMBERS—I knew
Rocker on the 21st February. I had known him seven
months. I did not see him on that night at all, nor for a
month before. I did not see him romping with any girl in
my company.
Eleanor Edwards—l reside at 6, Bath-place. I have
known the prisoner forabout ten weeks. He never made ap-
plication to me for a loan of money. I had no disposition to
lend him any.
By Mr. Justice COLERIDGE—I did not know any members
of his family.

_ ....
James Fell, Chief Clerk at Marylebone Police-court, pro-
duced the examinations taken at that court, and the few
words said by the prisoner at the close of each examination.
The letter signed " Caroline" was also put in and read.

This closed the case for the prosecution.
Mr. CLARKSON then said that his Learned Brother, Mr.
Ballantine, and himself had attended for the defence, at the
request of the Sheriffs of London, but as the prisoner him-
self had expressed a wish to address a few wurds to the gen-
tlemen of the jury, he trusted their Lordships would allow
him to do so. _ _

Mr. Justice COLERIDGE had no objection, and informed
the prisoner that if he wished live minutes leizure before
making his defence, he was at liberty to retire for that time.
The prisoner said, "Thank yoe, my Lord, I should like
just five minutes;" and so saying he turned away:and stepped
lightly down stairs into the passage that communicates be-
tween the prison and the dock. On his re-appearance he
maintained the same unconcerned and flighty manner that
had marked his conduct up to this point throughout the whole
of the trial. He advanced to the centre of the dock, holding
in his hands three or four sheets of manuscript. He then
folded his arms and stood for nearly a minute perfectly cool
and impassable, as if waiting for silence to be restored. He
leant over the dock and consulted for a moment with. some
interval
of greatestperson pointl:sei
bCle calmnessourtarid aagnadindreNv composure.hhn himself with w
of about a minute of painful suspense ensued whilst be stood
turning over his papers. He appeared as perfectly col-
lected as any one of the witnesses who had appeared
against him, and it was observable, from the steadiness with
which he held the papers, that not a nerve trembled. In a
clear, though a somewhat mincing, and evidently in a very
laboured tone, he then addressed the jury in the following
terms, reading from the manuscript :
" I beg to read to your Lordships and to the gentlemen of
the jury two statements that I have furnished to my counsel
through the medium of my solicitor. I have very carefully
perused the depositions against me, and I find nothing in
them to the truth of which"—'
[At this point the prisoner hesitated, as if unable to read
the manuscript. He repeated, " And I find nothing in them."
He again stopped and gave utterance to a subdued but impa-
tient expression, as if annoyed at himself for not being able
to read more readily. After another lapse of nearly a minute
he recommenced.]
" I have very carefully perused the depositions against me,
and I see nothing in them of a serious and weighty nature
to the truth of which I object. I wish to communicate to you
all I have to say as calmly and dispassionately as possible,
and to that end I shall not attempt the least apology or de-
fence. I will state to you every circumstance connected with
the depositions, leaving it for you to say whether they are
consequential or not. The two grand questions are—how came
my clothes to be saturated with blood; and, how did I come
into possession of the property of the deceased? The former
I can answer satisfactorily to my own conscience; but no-
thing on earth shall cause me to divulge it, at least on. this
side of my trial. It were an easy matter for me to fabricate
—to make a lie; but I will not do it; and to prove to you
that I am so fur conscientious, I have amongst some prs-
vete letters here, which I have had conveyed to me since I
came hither, one in which a desire is expressed to account
for the manner in which my clothes were eo besmeared ; and
the person in his devotedness to rise offers to forswear him-
self; but I would rather have this mysterious part of the
affair remain as it is, by leaving it in the hands of my counsel.
I know while doing so I endanger my own safety, but I have
urgent reasons for doing so. If this gloomy affair terminate
adversely, I die a martyr; if otherwise, by my taking a de-
fensive course, I live a traitor. This sounds paradoxical,pro-
bably, to your ears, but such is the fact, of which I excuse
and pardon your disbelief until it be further evidenced to
you. I will therefore quit this part of the subject with this
remark : after such a painful and ignominious exposure of
everything connected with my present and former circum
stances, together with every vile and contumelious insult
and misrepresentation, I can have no desire to survive the
issue, be it ever so favourable to nay innocence. I am
ruined inevitably and irrevocably, and I am too much the
Englishman to fear death, whatever form it may assume.
But more to the matter. The deceased, Dalarue, bad
frequently offered his services to me in the way of pecuniary
assistance. (I ought, perhaps, to have told you that I had
known the deceased for nearly two years.) It was
about six months after our acquaintance that he made
the first friendly overture of the kind, and it
was something like two months following that I ac-
cepted it. He at that time gave me 41. 10s., which
was the whole of the contents of his purse, accompa-
nied by the words, Hecker, never see me again if you
once venture to return me this trifle; I am no friend of
yours in your estimation if you view it as a loan merely.'
Last August I kept away from him for a month or live
weeks, on account of the shabby condition of my apparel.
He took it unconfiding on my part that I did not acquaint
him with my embarrassed circumstances, and he then good-
heartedly insisted on my turning to the best advantage 51.,
which lie threw at me, wishing he could punish' me in
the same way right on for a whole day. Such was the
nature of our intimacy. I have had property belonging to
deceased of considerable value. A large telescope—l should
say worth 71. or e/.—also a smaller one, and an opera glass,
microscope, &c.—all of which he lent me at different times,
and which I believe are to be found at his apartments now.
My parents, and several others, remember to have seen them.
The deceased also entrusted me with a silver watch, a silver
watchguard, and part of a diamond ring. The part which
contained the diamond only remained. I had to dispose of
them for 3/. 17s. The deceased was anxious to make up a
certain sum of money by a given time, and I understood the
request as a delicate wish for me to pledge the articles for
him. 1 got them pawned at a Mr. Richardson's, Henry-
street, Portland-town, for the required amount. The de-
ceased gave me the duplicates, which I handed over to
the officers when they searched my apartment. How I came
with the watch and ring which the brother of deceased
identified was in the following way :—ln our engagements of
late deceased had often been half an hour behindhai:d. His
watch, for some time past, had performed irregularly. He
frequently struck it with his walking cane, in a momentary
ill-humour, which accounts for the seconds pointer being
gone. lie gave it to me to be cleaned and repaired for
him, at the same time producing his ring, which had
always been too large for his little finger, to he lessened,
and for the brilliant to be reset, which it needed, in
consequence of an attempt to prove its genuineness,
which he effected by removing the brilliant from its setting,
and striking it with a hammer, having first placed it on
a stone fir that purpose. He had used all his influence
towards putting me into a comfortable situation, but had
failed until the morning of the day on which he was mur-
dered. I forgot to state that it was on this morning that de-
ceased gave the watch and ring to me. On that morning he
saluted me in a pleasant air, and said he brought me good
news he hoped. He then led me to think I should be a little
better to do in a few days, but that he would acquaint me
with more anon. He provided me at the same time with
(what indeed I had for some time expected) 12b in gold.
The deceased had so often lent me money that I was ashamed
to mention his name again to my parents; I, therefore, forged
a falsehood, and represented Mrs. Edwards as the donor. I
was in possession of the money in the morning, and that ac-
counts for my positively assuring my parents that I might
hhve it by calling on Mrs. Edwards in the eveni▪
ng. At
seven o'clock in the evening of the Friday I went to the Swiss
Tavern, and called for ruin and water. I stayed there nearly
three quarters of an hour. There was. another man—
apparently a gentleman—in the room during the whole of
the time, to whom I read portions of the day's newspaper.
A candle was on the table, close by me, while 1 was reading.
It was a bitterly cold night, and. the fire was burning cheer-
fully. I stood in the front of it for some time. H-
ad my
alawnt:ll-oei
clothes at that time been disordered. or bloody, the gentle-
man or the waiter must
.have seen. it. The waiter remarked
sarptvd,reeotrhcteealdleteattthhfeeuel
:rri,tieih.rwnieiter)ari
entdonAoweftntabett
releorrloandl
left the
lighted
thlehfedi ttlpeauv,vhbeaelmuni
public-house
directedu anywhere
e sm o n
nitteyo
at the inquest, after failing to identify me, that the person
wash them, why suffer my clothes to remain as they were,
ear
the
will
? But it is not my place to write in this manner.
was committed, for it lay
r.oad, whither I was going. inAms yI
path across the fields, in a line with the spot where the deed
INa-papyrotaochtehde
HHaiunveprEsttoceakd:
held, whistling a merry tune, a policeman ran out from the
hedge, and accosted me with the words ' Young gentleman,
sad work liere ; here's a dead man.' I immediately scaled
the fence with him, and asked him if he was sure the
man was dead ? The policeman (Baldock) said, ' There
was no doubt of it.' I felt the pulse of the deceased.
It was still. Ile remarked that the deceased was a
young man. It was an awful spectacle, and we both
wept. I felt quite sick and chilly, and told the policeman I
should shortly take some brandy. I proposed to him to do
the same. I continued with him and the deceased, without
offering to withdraw, for forty minutes. I told Baldock that
some months back I had been in the habit of crossing
' the adjacent field from Hampstead several times in a
week at a late hour in the evening, and that I usually
carried a pocket stiletto as a life-preserver, which I showed
him, asking him whether the possession of such an instru-
ment were illegal or not. He said he thought not. He re-
marked that the blade was very bright. Baldock asked the
time of the night. I looked at the watch which has since
been produced, and told him. Sergeant Fletcher and some
four or five other policemen then arrived with a stretcher,
Almost all of them addressed me on seeing me on the spot
with Baldock. 1 accompanied the policemen, four of whom
carried the corpse. 1 asked one of them if it were necessary
for me still to attend them ; he said, if I could give no in-
formation, it would be useless. I had made an appointment
to be in Portland-placethat evening. 1 found that I had al-
ready exceeded my time through remaing so long with
Baldock. I left them with the corpse when I had got as far
as Church-row, Hampstead, and hastened towards my desti-
nation."
[This appeared to be the conclusion of the first statement,
and the prisoner took up another paper. After a momentary
pause, he proceeded :—]
" I wish to explain to you as nearly as my feelings will
suffer me, the nature of my present trial, and to show you,
that to attempt an extrication out of my misery, by a full
disclosure of everything connected with this sad affair, would