The Sun.
London, England, 1842-05-25 00:00:00

If the difficulties were so great already, why not do
their best to tvhnit food and provisions free into
the country ? He should like to hear how the
Right Hon. Gentleman ascertained that 20s. ought
to be the duty on an ox, and Bs. on
salted meat. He would not throw any obstacle in the
way of these reforms, but he must say that he did not
anticipate. that trade and manufactures would he revived
by. the tariff of the Right Hon. Baronet. There was as
earnest a desire to obtain a greater measure of commer-
cial freedom, as there was before his tariff was introduced.
Mr. R. PALMER said, if there was anything calcu-
lated to alarm the agricultural interest, it was the speech
of the Hon. Gentleman, and the manner in which it was
received. The Hon. Gentleman had alluded to the effects
of the Corn-law League ; but he was mistaken if
he supposed the agriculturists were to be intimidated in
that manner by threats. With respect to the proposition
of hii lion. Friend, he should support it.
Mr. WARD said that the Hon. Member for Berk-
shire had correctly described this motion. It was
a covert attempt to carry out the motion which
the House had last night rejected by an overwhelming
majority. If there were no parties to this question but
Hon. Gentlemen opposite and their constituents on one
side, and the Government on the other, then a
compromise might be admissible ; but there was
a much larger body more deeply interested in the
question than either of them, and that was the great mass
-of the consumers of the country.—(Cheers.) He had
listened with great delight to the speech of the
First Lord of the Treasury repelling this insidi.Sus pro-
position.—(Cheers.) If he (Mr. Ward) had any complaint
to make against the tariff, it was that it did not go far
eteeag:h. When Honourable Members spoke of their
constituents, he thought they had higher duties
to perform than to attend to the mere local inte-
rests of the different fractions which had sent them
there. They had a duty to perform to the country at
large, and it was their duty to break through the fetters
of local interests.—(Cheers.) He would place himself
at the disposal of Government—(Cheers and laughter)—
on the question of the tariff, whenever the general interest
should be attempted to be neutralized by some particular
interest.—(Loud cheers.) If his Hon. Friends near
him should move for protection to Irish pigs or Scotch
cattle, he would give them every opposition in his power.
He did not wish to appeal to the fears of the agricultural
interest, nor had his Hon. Friend behind meant to do:so,
and he did not believe that more alarm could be created
by that speech, than would have been if last year the in-
tention of the Government had been fairly an-
nounced to the country.—(Hear and cheers.) He
considered that what had been done was only valuable
as an approximation towards what ought to be done
—(Cheers.) The tariff was valuable in itself, but he at-
taelled much greater value to the speeches of its sup-
porters. If they would read corn for cattle throughout
the speech of the Right,Hon. Gentleman the Vice-Presi-
dent of the Board of Trade last evening, the Right Hon.
Gentleman would be very much puzzled to give anything
like a decent answer to his own argument ; and when
the -Corn-law should next year come under discussion,
that speech, no doubt, would be referred to.—(Cheers.)
They had tried the system of factitious protection long
.enough. * They had long tried the system of propping up
one interest at the expense of another. He would give his
support to such parte of the tariff as he could approve of.

'Mr. BUCK said that when the Right Hon: Baronet
bad brought for Ward his scale of protective duties on
corn he (Mr. Buck gave it his support, and assigned his
reasons for` so doing ;. and when the Right Hon: Baronet
had brought forward his measure for an Income-tax, from
the clear • and lucid statements which the Right Hon.
Gentleman made, he (Mr. Buck) considered it incum-
bent on him to give his support to that measure, because
it seemed to him necessary to rescue the country from
the difficulties and embarrassments under which it la-
boured, and it was now with extreme regret that he felt
himself called on to oppose the proposal of the Right
Hon. Baronet. He would not venture to say that he
never knew the alarm so great as it was when the new
tariff was proposed. -If that were so, then it would not
be changed by either the speech of the ; Right
Hon. Baronet or that of the Vice-President of the
Board of Trade last night. When the agriculturists
reflected on the immense capabilities of the Continent,
'they could not but feel the greatest alarm. He
sympathised with the labouring population in
the manufacturing districts, but he approved of their
laudable resistance to the Anti-Corn-law League.—
(Laughter.) For they felt that their (the Anti-Corn-
law League's) proceedings would be the means of reducing
.their wages still further. The Right Hon. Baronet said
that this measure would reduce the poor-rates through-
out the country. He (Mr. Buck) hoped to God it would,
but. he very much doubted it. It was not his intention
now to go further into the present subject, because he
felt that the speech of his Friend, the Member for So-
merset, was so conclusive on the subject, as to render it
unnecessary for him to do so. He would however say,
that a free trade in cattle were agreed to, those who
assented to it would soon have cause to regret it. He
believed that the present proposition was inimical to the
interest he represented, and he should, therefore, oppose
it in every, way he was able.
Mr. 0. STANLEY considered, after the division of
lasi night, it was of no use longer to oppose this part of
the measure. As strong as the agricultural interest with
the country was, it could have no effect against the com-
bined forces of the Right Hon. Gentleman. The Hon.
Member for Brecon (Colonel Wood) had told them that
Ole markets, in the county which he represented, had of
late recovered from the panic created by the announce-
,ineitt of the tariff ; but lie (Mr. 0. Stanley) could testify
that tfpat was not the case in the county with which he
was eoifuected. The depression of prices which had
followed ti,,lre from the announcement of the Government
wonld, he believed, continue hereafter.
COlonel W(01) said, that what lie had always stated
was; that he should „not have supported the Corn-laws,
unless he thought that they were no less beneficial to the
manufacturing than to the agricultural classes, and he
was still ready to adhere to that statement.
Mr. V[LLIERS said, that the Hon. Member should
have told the House whether he found any parties Co
believe that the Corn-laws were no less beneficial to the
manufacturer than to the agriculturist. The Hon. Gentle-
man had told them that they were legislating for a
class. Had he seen the proposal for reducing the duty
on cattle, sapported by those whose incomes were in-
creased. by the privations of the people, he should have
• Observed the same economy* of the time of the House,
and not have moved the amendment to the proposition
which he now intended to propose. The full extent of
the privation of the people had not been stated ; it was
not merely a small portion of the people, but millions,
-who were deprived of the use of animal food. He had
g.t.,t a statement of a Commissioner appointed by the
• Crown—(ol4, oh)—if Hon. Gentlemen wanted to dine,
he could assure them that it was only what those he al-
luded to wanted to do also. It was the statement of Dr.
Kay, who was sent into Norfolk and Suffolk to inquire
into the state of the poor. He stated that a man, his
-wife, and four children, cost on-an average 501. a year ;
• the wages of the same family, if employed, was
only 351. a, year. If this were correct, the agricultural
' labourer or 'Suffolk was on little better than half diet.
Ile said the door-1w Inquiry and successive Parlia-
mentary Comniittees had shown that the families of the
agricultural labourers had an inadequate supply of
J)read. He said that in half a year 63 individuals had
skied of starvation, being one in a population of 100,000.
Tthe want of food implied the want of everything elie,
and'. hunger caused more deaths than were registered,
bee.tuse its effects were chiefly manifested in diseasea,of
various kinds. Such was the aspect of things in this
coin:try. Now, what was the state of the manufactur-
ing district's in s.cotland ? It appeared, by a recent ac-
count from the town and county of Stirling, that a man
was detected in stealing potatoes. He was taken by the
policeman, in company with the owner of the potatoes,
to the place where f:e lived, and it was found that he
• had an aged mother and two sisters depending upon
him for support. There' was a pot on the fire, and on
the lid being raised it was found to contain a dead dog,
which Was boiling for the fax:ally.
An /lox. ox. asked w,kx they had not applied to

the ioor-house ?
Mr. VILLIERS said the circumstance occurred in
Scotland. In that country there ware no Poor-laws.—
(Hear, hear.) He believed that the people were much
worse off now than they were four hundred years ago.
'ln an account, quoted by William Cobbett, from For-
tescue,.the Chancellor of Henry the Si;:th, it was stated
that the people at that time had an abundant supply of
-all sorts of flesh and fish, and that they were well clothed
and well provided with household goods. That was before
the new Poor-law.—(Hear, hear.) He believed the
people were not nearly so well off•now as in any previous
• period of our history. To,show the state of feeling to-
wards the people in the time of Henry VIII. he would
-read to them the preamble of an Act passed in that
reign. After saying, that whereas previously meat had been
sold at a cheap price, so that poor persons might obtain
enough from the proceeds of their labour for them-
selves and families, it continued that then mutton,
veal, and pork were sold at so high a rate
that the subjects of this realm could not get enough for
Their subsistence ; it provided then that butchers and
graziers should provide the people with meat and corn at
a cheap rate. In 1666, and this was worthy the atten-
tion of Irish Members who were desirous of upholding
the present system of prohibition in order to raise their
rents, an Act was passed prohibiting the importation of
all live cattle into England from Ireland, with the idea
that such a measure would raise the rents in England.
He found, however, one Roger Coke, in 1690, writing
that the effect had been to lower rather than raise the
rents. See the effect that dear food had upon crime.
From returns he had in his hand of the amount of crimi-
nals imprisoned during the last five years, it appeared
that in 1836, they were 20,000 ; in 1837, 23,000 ;
in 1838, 24,000 ; in 1839,27,000 ; and in 1840, 30,000 ;
and the price of food had been gradually riding. during
each of those years. Since the year 1837 pauperism also
hadlncreased 25 per cent., notwithstanding . the opera-
tion of the new Poor-laW ; nal there could be no doubt
that when food was dear„wor-rates were also high.
The Right Hon. Baronet said, when proposing his new
tariff, that the mere rumour of an alteration had lowered
the contracts which certain persons had with some unions
20 per cent,, and that he (Nlr. V.) thought was a proof
that by that means the: poor-rates were lowered by re-
duction in the. price Of food, and that they were raised by
a riSP, the priee'of food.—(Cries of " Question, clues-
lion,' and .. Divide:") He would not detain the House
ong. If Hon. Gentl.,trden wished to hive their dinner,
he was sorry to keep' them, and he wished that they
would show the same merry- to those whose cause he ad-
vocated.—(Hear, hear,).
_lie said they had not shown
that this alteration wonleC do any good' to the people.
The present privations of the neople showed what they
had suffered hitherto, and 13. e thought they ought at least
to indemnify them for wha. they had suffered. by mak-
ing a generous and free cha age in their system, and do
not let them have anything to. do with the Queen's begg-
ing 'letter. He considered th sit this tax was not for the
good of the Country—not for the sake of the revenue, but
e raenndts .
thatof l a
wasnl solely.for the purpose . of .1 mprc.
vin
'The raital of this country w: t. 77,100g,00th07.,
a large margin to operate u .poi. ~And, considering that

they were assured that the measure would maltd no dif-
ference in their rents, but would be made up to them in
the reduced cost of living, he hoped they,woullset a good
-example, and do justice to the -people: llWVould now
move that instead of 20s. the sum of Is. be inserted.—
(Cheers, and loud cries of " Divide, divide.")

The CHAIRMANsaid, that he should put the original
amendment first.

The question was then put, when
Mr. ESCOTT, amidst- loud cries of "Divide," said he
should oppose the motion of the Hon. Member near him.
—(Cheers.) He considered the present measure was
good in proportion as it diminished the difficulties which
lay in the way of the importation of cattle into the coun-
try.—(Cheers.) He believed the interests of agriculture
world be aided, and not defeated by the present mea-
sure.—(Divide.)
After a few words from Mr. R. YORICE, amidst loud
cries of "Divide,"
Lord JOHN RUSSELL wished to say a few words
before thedivision. He was certainly not surprised at
the sensation created by the joke of the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman, which had been • intended as a mere pleasantry.
Though the statements were very absurd with regard
to cattle, they were not more absurd than the statement
made last year with respect to corn. With regard to the
proposition now before the House, he certainly could not
vote for the Hon. Gentleman's amendment. He would
beg leave to call the attention of the Hon. Gentleman to a
statement made by Mr. Meek, with regard to the importa-
tion of cattle. He thought that the importation would not
be very large, but such as it was, it would be forced by the
operation of our other laws relating to agricultural pro-
duction. Mr. Meek stated that the butter and cheese
imported from liamburgh, amounted in 1818 to
1,000,0001b5., and in 1836, it increased to 4,000,000 lbs.
That was owing to there being less corn grown, and
more land being used for pasture than formerly. He
thought that this very clearly showed that the effect of
the Corn-laws, as now proposed to be estahlished,was to
induce the persons to apply land to grass, and to look
for profit to the exportation of cattle. Now he thought
that the best way to prevent that from being carried to
an excess, was to adapt the Corn-laws to the cattle duty,
and to equalize the two—(Hear, hear)—so as not to
force the farmers to apply themselves too much to graz-
ing. As he could not vote for the proposition of the
Hon. Member now before the House, so neither could he
vote for the proposition of another Hon. Member, which
was to be afterwards brought on. He thought the pro-
position of the Government, that the duty upon
cattle should be 20s. per head a very fair one.—
(Hear.) The duty was not excessive, for it amounted to
no more than eight per cent, ad valorem ; and therefore,
although he should have preferred It different rate, yet
he did not like to oppose that which came from the Go-
vernment, as it was really an improvement on the tariff.
There might be many things in the new tariff which he
might wish to have been otherwise, but wherever he
found that they were, after all, improvements on the pre•
sent system, he would not oppose them.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir R. PEEL said that the course which the Noble
Lord intended to follow almost prevented him from re-
freshing his memory as to a certain province in Russia.
—(Hear and laughter.) The Noble Lord had accused
them (the Ministers) of having raised an alarm respect-
ing. the quantity of corn which could be imported from
a single province in Russia. The fact was the late Go-
vernment sent out a gentleman to collect information on
the Continent as to the corn which those countries
could supply ; and amongst the Reports there
v. as one from an English Consul in Russia, who
gave the ' amount of corn which could be im-
ported from that _country in one week as 38,000,000. qrs.
Now the Noble Lord who was so anxious to obtain the
most correct and the fullest information preparatory to
an important change in the Corn-laws, caused that
Report to be printed, without asking a question as to
the grounds on which this extraordinary statement was
founded.—(Hear, hear.) It passed altogether unnoticed
until he (Sir R.Peel) called attention to it, and suggested
that there must be a mistake in the figures. That state-
ment had never been questioned ; it had been printed,
and he (Sir R. Peel) was the first person who had asked
if there was not some arithmetical error in the
statement. Reference was made to the original
letter, and there, not the figures, but the words,
thirty-eight millions of quarters, were found written
at length in the handwriting of the Consul.
The Noble Lord charged his (Sir R. Peel's)
side of the House with countenancing the error.
The Noble Lord himself was certainly more open to the
charge of making that exaggerated statement, since it
was the Noble Lord who had caused that statement to
be printed at the public expense ; and until he (Sir R.
Peel) had made inquiries on the suject. had not called
on the Consul for any explanation.—(Cheers.)
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the
Committee divided, when there appeared—
For the original motion 209
For Mr. Miles' amendment

Majority for the original motion ... —165
Major VIVIAN rose to move that the duty on cattle,
meat, and other provisions mentioned in the tariff, im-
ported from the Canadas, be equal to the impart duty
from other foreign countries. It was well known that
Canada could export but little of those provisions, but
they obtained their provisions from America. There
were seventy thousand square miles of fine country
in Ohio, with every facility for a large supply from
that country ; and, therefore, with a differential
duty in favour of the Canadas of 25., the consequence
would be that the settlers in America would immediately
turn their attention to producing cattle, and they would
have eventually an immense quantity of foreign meat
sent by the Canadas at a duty of 2s. He trusted the
Right Hon. Baronet would reconsider this matter. He
(Major Vivian) was bound to bring the subject forward,
as his constituents were largely interested in the matter.
Sir 11. PEEL said that he could not accede to the pro-
posal of the Hon. and Gallant Member. The present
arrangement would be beneficial both to the colonist and
to the consumer in this country.
Major VIVIAN said that the parties who would really
benefit by the Government proposition would be the
Americans, who imported cattle into Canada.
Mr. C. BULLER said that the route from the Ohio
River by Lake Erie into Canada, along the River St.
Lawrence, with all the rapids, was so circuitous, that he
thought it was quite clear more would be lost than gained
by the difference between the duties ; he was of opinion,
therefore, that the system could not departed from in
this instance. He wished to point out to his Hon. and
Gallant Friend, that if there were any apprehension of
provisions being brought in from Ohio to Sidney, that
that would not give the Canadas any advantage over the
United States.—(Hear.) The difference was only one of
10s. This kind of smuggling could not be apprehended,
and if it should take place, he did not see any
particular harm in it ; because if the people should
get food a little cheaper, he did not think that
that was a matter calling for the interference of that
House. If he wanted to find reasons for voting against
any clause in this measure, he should be able to find
plenty of a theoretical nature for voting against this
clause. They had now to contend with a great evil—
the question of the Canadian timber trade, that had been
an evil of their own fostering. Let them beware lest

they raised up such another enemy fur the future. He
did not think, however, that any protection that could
be given could foster a cattle trade in Canada. He did
wish to go out of his way to find arguments against not
the tariff. He looked at it as a whole, and he considered
it was the greatest measure that ever was carried in
favour of free trade. He did not say the greatest mea-
sure that had ever becn proposed, but, if they got it, it
would be the greatest measure ever carried in favour of
free trade.—(Cheers.) When he saw the extent to
which Ministers were disposed to carry free trade prin-
ciples, he was almost inclined to forgive their past sins
for the manner in which they had, in this tariff, boldly
attacked monopoly. He was anxious the tariff should
be carried with the gloss of free trade upon it, and there-
fore he was inclined to accept it without looking so ad-
mirable a gift-horse in the mouth.—(Laughter.)
Viscount HOWICK said that as the amendment of the
Hon. and Gallant Officer appeared to be at first sight in
conformity with the resolutions, which he (Lord How-
ick) had submitted to the House, he could not vote
against it, as he intended doing, without shortly stating
the reasons by which he had been determined to adopt_
that course. It was clear, as had been stated by the
Right Hon. Baronet, that it would be impossible that
cattle could be brought from Canada •, and, therefore, the
proposition of the Hon. and Gallant Officer must be nuga-
tory. He (Lord Howick) could not help seeing that the
amendment had been moved, not to carry into effect the
principle for which he (Lord Howick) had contended,
but to allay the unfounded alarms of the gentlemen of
landed property. He did not wish, by any vote of his
to lend any countenance to that alarm. He approved of
that part of the tariff relating to cattle, and he could not
vote for an amendment that would be supported by those
who opposed it. But though he approved of this part of
the tariff, yet he thought the Right Hon. Baronet had
begun his free trade at the wrong end in regard to the
interests of agriculture. The tendency of the improve-
ments in agriculture was to increase the production of
stock, and diminish the cultivation of corn. But the
course now taken tended to discourage the improved
system, and to encourage the mistaken attention paid to
the cultivation of corn. The principle laid down with
regard to cattle, applied with double force to grain.
Sir R. PEEL said it was very difficult to form a judg-
ment as to what the practical effect of these reductions
would be. It had been asserted that the protection given
to spring corn was much greater than that given to
wheat, as spring corn was that most used in feeding
; cattle and the Noble Lord proved that he acted wisely
and for the benefit of agriculture in giving less protec-
tion to spring corn than heretofore. It had been stated
that there need be no apprehension of the economic mode
of importing oats in the shape of fat beef, since the
country that sent them the most fat cattle sent them the
most oats also.
Lord HOWICK said the Right Hon. Gentleman
seemed now to take a pride in having encouraged the
importation of spring corn, because it was applied to
feeding cattle. But the great mistake he had com-
mitted was this, that he had not considered corn
on the same principle as he had considered cattle.
The tendency of the system was to discourage the adop-
tion of the best systems by the agriculturists, and to
encourage them to trust to the old system of wheat cul-
tivation for raising their rents. All these discussions,
however, only showed how destitute her Majesty's Go-
vernment were of any fixed principles on the subject.
No general or fixed principle was adopted.
Sir R. PEEL said he was very sorry that the Noble
Lord had so soon repented the compliment which he had
just paid to the Government.—(Cheers.) Re would
just mention, with reference to the Corn-law, that in the
week ending the 12th of May, 1842, 15,000 quarters
of wheat had been admitted at a duty of 125.,
and that in the following week, 5,764 quarters,
had been admitted at the same duty. He thought that
showed that reduction might be expected from the altera-
tion in the duty, and that the public could not be exposed
to the inconvenience of a sudden and extravagant rise in
price.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. LABOUCHERE said he thought the Right Hon.
Baronet had shown a disposition to evade the objection