The Sun.
London, England, 1820-10-10 00:00:00

PARLIAMENT,

HOUSE OF LORDS-MONDAY.

THE QUEEN'S DEFENCE.
[Continuation of Yesterday's Proceedings.]

CuaULEi MILLS, Esq. was next called in and eX.
amine(' bs Mr. DENMAN. _ _

Q. You generally reside at Rome ?—A. I do.
Did you reside there in the summer of 1817 ?
I aid.

had you then the honour of seeing there her
Rual.llighness the Princess of Wales ?—I had.
Did you call upon her Royal Highness
called upon her Royal highness upon her ar-
rival.

Do you know how long she remained in Rome?
I remained there myself but twelve days, there-
fore I cannot tell how long she remained.
You left before her Royal Highness ?—I did.
Had you the honour of her Royal Highness's
t cquaintance before that period ?—I had.
Daring the twelve days you have spoken of,
were you repeatedly in her Royal Highness's
to use ?—I dined at the Hotel Europa most days
w;th her Royal Highness.
Can you inform us whether at that period she
was visited by persons of rank ?—She was.
Can you mention some of their names ?—The
witness mentioned the names of an Italian Ba-
roness and a Duchess who were appointed to
wait upon her Royal Highness as maids of ho.
LOUT.

• Had she a guard of honour also ?—She had all
the same marks of distinction paid to her at that
priod which were paid to other Royal Person-
ages residing at Rome.
You have mentioned two Ladies who were ap-
pointed to wait upon the Princess as maids of
honour—were there other persons of raukin the
h‘bit of visiting also ?—There were.
Can you mention any of their names ?—Lord
Ki.lworth visited her. The Abbe Taylor was a
v:onstant guest.

At other times, besides at dinner, were per-
sons of rank in the habit of paying• their respects
to her Royal Highness ?—Persons of rank came
to pay evening visits.
Was Bergami at that time her Royal High-
Chamberlain ?—He was.

Did he in. that character dine at her Royal
Hiliness's table ?—He did.

Have you often seen her Royal Highness and
her Chamberlain Bergami in company together ?
--Frequently.
Did you ever see the smallest impropriety of
conduct between these individuals ?—Never.

Does that answer apply to the period of her
Royal Highness having been in Rome as well as
to other periods also ?—Perfectly.
Did you pay your respects to her Royal High-
ness at Pesaro, in 1819 :—I did. On my return
from Venice, I called at her Royal Highness's
villa near Pesaro. Her Royal Highness was out
airing when I called—but when she-' returned
she sent her carriage and Equerry 'and Mr. Wil-
liam Austin to desiie one to come to her that
evening.
And you went ?-1 did.

flow long did you remain ?—I arrived at her
house about seven or vight o'clock. I remained
tiwre the evening, supped, and returned to my

Did you pay your respects to her Royal High-
I.tS3 the following day ?-ller Royal Highness
sent. her carriage and her equerry to show me
whatever was worth seeing in the town of Pesaro.
Did. you afterwards wait upon her Royal
Highness ?—I returned with the carriage, and
dined.with her Royal Highness.
Did you remain that evening in her company ?
—After having walked with her Royal Highness
in the grounds, I remained an hour and then pro-
ceeded on my journey.
Had you the honour of paying your respects to
her Majesty after she became Queen of England ?
—I was at Rome when her Majesty arrived.
When was that ?—ln 820.
Can you state the month ?-1. hardly know the
mouth, but I think 'it was in February.
Had she received the account of the King's
death ?—She had.

'Had she assumed the title and dignity of the
Qaeen of England ?—She had.
Had she then two ladies of honour appointed
to attend her I—She had not.

Was there any guard of honour in attendance
upon her Majesty ?—There was not.
Notwithstanding this circumstance, did per-
sons of tank in Rome, English and Italian, do
themselves the honour to wait upon her Majesty
to pay their respects ?—Several.
Did you know those persons ?—I can speak
of those who wrote their names in her Majesty's
book.

We cannot hear what was written ; I ask you
what persons of rank you saw ?—I saw none ; I
Gull knew it, or heard of it.
Did you happen to know at that period whe-
ther the funeral of his late Majesty had taken
place ?—I think it had.
Do you know whether Bergami was Chamber-
lain to her Majesty in 1819 and 1820 ?—iie was.
Was there any difference in the general ap-
pearance of her Majesty's household during the
three periods in which you had the honour of
seeing her ?—Noue.
Did you ever see any thing in the conduct of
these two parties towards each other in the
slightest degree derogatory to the character of
the Queen of England, or likely to wound the
moral feelings of her country ?--Necer.
Did you, in your intercourse with her Majes-
ty, ever see her Majesty conduct herself, in
pahlic or private, in a way which could justly
be called exceptionable ?
:The ATTORNEY-GENRRAL objected to this as
a leading question.
Mr. DENMAN said, that the charge against her
Majesty was, that both in public and private she
hiul r.nducted herself in such a manner as to
bring disgrace upon this country, and to put the
.1.04)ral feelings of its people at defiance. Here j

was an individual who had had an opportunity of
making correct observation upon her Majesty's
conduct, and he contended that his Learned
Friend had no right to object to the opinion
which he might, with that opportunity, have
formed.

The LORD CHANCELLOR said, that if this ques•
tion was objected to for the sake of regularity,
they must hear the objection formally stated.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said, he only ob.
jected to the leading manner in which the ques•
tion had been put.
Mr. BROUGHAM contended, that there was no•
thing leading in the manner in which the ques.
tion had been put.

The Lonn CHANCELLOR saw no objection to
the question in the abstract.
Lord LIVERPOOL remarked, that if evidence
was let in as to the general conduct of the Queen
in one instance, it must be perm;tted in others.
The LORD CHANCELLOR.—The opinion of a
witness may be received in evidence, as to any
thing which may have come under his own ob-
servation.

The question was then repeated to the wit-
ness—and he answered, " I never did."
At any time when you have seen Bergami and
the Queen together, did you ever observe any
thing in the conduct of the former disrespectful,
or such as in his situation you were induced to
think unbecoming ?—No; he always conducted
himself towards her Majesty with the utmost
respect.

There was no degrading familiarity between
them ?—None whatever.

Cross-examined by the ATTORNEY••GENERAL.
Q. Did Bergami dine with her Royal High-
ness at Rome ?—A. He did.

Where did he sit ?----In no particular place. I
have seen him at different parts of the table.

Have you seen her Royal Highness and Ber-
gami at other places in Rome have seen Bee-
gami in attendance upon her Royal Highness at
other places at Rome ; at the Corpus Domini
and elsewhere.

How did he attend her ; in what capacity ?
As a Chamberlain.

Where was her Royal Highness at the Corpus
Domiui ?—ln a box.

Where was Bergami ?—Behind her Royal
Highness.

Standing or sitting ?—When I saw him he was
standing.
Were any other of the suite there ?—Several.
How many times did you dine with her Royal
Highness at Rome ?—Upon the first occasion
three or four times ; quite as many.
Do you recollect the names of the persons who
called upon her Royal Highness ?—Many Cardi-
nals and Ladies .of Distinction ; the Cardinal
Gonsalvi was one. I usually left after dinner,
and the company came in the evening.
If there were many persons there, you can enu-
merate some of them ?—Her Majesty generally
saw company in the evening, and I dined with her.
When you say that many other persons called,
do you mean that you heard so, or do you speak
from your own personal knowledge ?—From my
personal knowledge, I was there one evening,
and I saw them as I was going past on others.
On the evening, or evenings which you were
there, can you name any other person of distinc-
tion whom you saw, besides those you have men-
tioned ?—I cannot.

In 1819 you paid a visit to her Royal High-
ness at Pesaro ?--I did.

Did Bergami sup with you and her Royal
Highness at Pesaro ?—lle
And dine the next day ?—He did.
Can you mention the persons who dined at her
Royal Highness's table at Pesaro ?—There was
Vass7.li, Bergami, Madame Oldi, and William
Austin, and two other persons with whom I was
unacquainted.
Was Louis Bergami one of those persons ?—I
cannot say he was ; I am nut sure that I am ac-
quainted with his person.
Then the only occasions on which you saw her
Royal Highness were at Rome and Pesaro ?
They were. _

Re-Examined.

Q. Did you know her Royal Highness before
she left England ?—A. Yes, I had that honour.
By a Peer.

Q. Did you feel any objection to sit down at
table with Bergami ?—A. I cannot say I did.
When did you leave. Rome ?—ln April last.
You did not leave Rome in consequence of
bearing that proceedings were contemplated
against the Queen ?—No.

By Lord LI VERPOOL.—In 1817, when you
were in the habit of visiting her Royal Highness
at Rome, did you see any English Ladies who
called at her house ?—lt was at a time when there
were not many English at• Rome; I did not see
any English Ladies.
By Lord MArisner.o.—You have stated, that
in 18120, at Rome, her Royal Highness took the
style and dignity of Queen of England ?
The LORD CiiiiICELLOR.---This question has
already been stated.

Do you know that application had been made
to the Government of Rome for a passport far her
Majesty the Queen of England ?—I know that
an application was made to the British Consul.

Do you know whether application was made to
have her Majesty designated as the Queen of
England ?—I know there was.

By Mr. BROUGHAM through the Lord Chan-
cellor.—lfow do you know this,,?-11cr Majesty
told me.

(These questions were ordered to be struck out.)
Did you know that Bergami had waited at
table as a servant ?—Cornmon report had inform-
ed rne•—(Struck out.)
By Lord FALMOUTH.—When you dined and
supped in company with the Countess of Oldie
were you introduced to her ?—I was introduced
to her the first time.

What were her manners F—They were unob-
trusive and natural.
Did you consider them as those of an Italian
Lady ?—I did not consider them otherwise.
Was the Italian she spoke good—pure Italian?
—She spoke with the accent of Lombardy.

You did not think that indicative of vulgarity ?
All persons have it who come from Lombardy.
By Lord Livcaroor,.—Was the Italian she
spoke grammatically correct ?—I am not suffi-
ciently versed in the language to answer that
question:
Did you ever, discover any thing incorrect to
your knowledge. -?-1•To.
When were you introduced to Countess Oldi?
In Isl 7, when her Majesty arrived at Rome.
Earl GREY—How long have you been in Eng-
land ?—I arrived in May.
Ilas any application been made to you for in-
formation respecting the conduct of the Queen in
Italy ?—Never.
JOSEPH TJEULLIE (a Frenchman)examined.
Q. You were a Colonel on the Staff, formerly
in the service of the Viceroy of Italy ?—A. Yes.
And afterwards upon the, taff of France ?—Yes.
Are you a Chevalier of the Orders of the Iron
Crown and Legion of Honour ?—Yes.
had you a brother a General of Division?—Yes.
Do you know Bergami ?—Yes.

Where did you first know him ?—lle was
Marechal de Logis (Quarter-master) in the first
regiment of Italian Hussars.

In what year was that ?—At the end of 1800
and the beginning of 1801, and the eighth year
of the French Republic.
Was your brother the General who command-
ed Bergami at that time ?—He commanded a
brigade of cavalry (two regiments), and the' first
Hussars was one of them.

Were you Aide-de-Camp to your brother ?
Yes, t *as Aide-de-Camp to my brother Gene-
ral Tieullie.
What was the conduct of Bergami at that
time ?—(Objected to by Mr. PARKS.)-The con-
duct of a good sub-officer and a good soldier,
who had never had any thing to reproach him-
self with.

Did your brother knowßergami at this time ?Yes.
Did he conic from the same country ?—Yes,
they are countrymen.
Did Bergami ever come to the dinner or sup-
per parties of the General ?—No, I never saw
him there.

Did you continue to know Bergami then, or
was there some interval before you saw him
again ?—A great deal of time intervened.
Did you ever see Bergami at the evening par-
ties of the General d'Alamberte ?—No, I did not
see him, but I knew that he went to the house of
M. d'Alamberte.

When did you see Bergami the second time ?
—On the frontiers of Spain, in the year 1808 and
1809, at the time when Marshal Suchet com-
manded a division of the French army, which
proceeded to Spain.
In whose service was Bergami at that time ?
He was in the service of General Pino.

In what manner was Bergami treated by Gen.
Pino ?—With a great deal of confidence, because
he was a person who had the General's own con-
fidence.

Did you visit Gen. Pino?---I Visited Gen. Pino
when business of the service required it.
Did you see Bergatni on these occasions ?—I
have sometimes, not always.
Do you know of your own knowledge that
Bergami dined with General Pino's evening par-
ties cannot affirm that.

In what estimation was Bergami held by Gen.
Pino and the officers, and how was he treated by
them ?---He was received with the greatest con-
fidence, as a man who enjoyed the whole confi-
dence of a person in the situation of Gen. Pino.
In what esteem was he held by the officers ?
Ile was very well received as an honest and
faithful man.

Cross-examined by Mr. PARKE.

Q. Did you know Bergami when he was in pri-
son at Lodi ?—A. I never heard any thing of it.
Was Bergami a servant of General Piuo's fa-
mily ?--He was a confidential courier of General
Pino, and entrusted with his affairs.
The Duke of CLARENCE here expressed his
dissatisfaction at the translation of, the last an-
swer. The French word was particuliere, and
he should like to be informed whether that word
had ever been translated " confidential."
After a conversation between several Noble
Lords, the French word was ordered to be in-
serted iu the Minutes with the translated answer.

What do you mean by the word particuliere
Do you mean a private courier, or what ?—lres,
he was a courier particularly attached to Gen.Pino.
Did you see any thing of Bergami between. the
year 1800 and the year 1808, when you saw him
in the service of General Pino ?----Nu.

At what period of the year 1808 or 1809 was
it that you saw him in the service of that Ge-
neral ?----I do not particularly recollect. It was
when General Pino's division was marching on
Barcelona.

But can you say about what period of the year
it was think it was about the beginning of
winter.

Can you not say whether it i-as of the year
1808 or 1809 ?--I cannot say precisely. lam
almost sure it was the beginning of winter.
How long had you an opportunity of seeing
Bergami in the service of General Pino ?—As a
division does not always remain together, but are
detached, I cannot say how long he remained
where I was.
Did the division march at the time ?—We did
not actually go on the march, but moved to pass
the river Hue.

Was Bergami always hi the dress of a courier ?
—ln common clothes.

Were you ever in England before ?—Never.
When did you first come to London ?—Six
weeks ago.
Have you remained in England ever since you
came ?--The first time I remained in England 21
days.

Where did you go afterwards ?—To Paris, to
my house, where I am established.
Did you remain at Paris, or did you go any
where else ?—i never moved from Paris without
leave of the General of Division and the Minister
of War.

Were you at Beauvais when you went to Pa-
ris ?—ln going to Paris, I was with a messenger

at Beauvais. I passed Beauvais in the oigbt;
the messenger did not stop. • t P
You passed through Beauvais the nigh
cow
Yes ; I passed through it at night with the, is
rier, and it is always night by the time
,cour chesrßeauvais.
f
a
`''‘DO loNa.prson.Noof the na2,411 „Si
411k4
-‘, tYlkiiVes at. *alio ?-114 ;q. lfnffepers°-
that name from Lugano.
Did you see him at Paris ?—Yes, once. ,N7o:i
Was that when you were last at Paris ?---'' i
it was before my first coming to England.
1110
How long ago is it ?—I think between to° ''
three months.
Had Rossi any one with him when You .
hint ?—No ; he was alone: ;
Had you then heard of the tumult at Doverf
Yes, I had read an account of it in the Fret
the
papers.
Did you communicate that to Rossi ?----SLiti
nothing was said about it. oce,
Never ?—Not by me. I saw him but i.° up
and that was for only about a quarter of on `l°
That was the only time you saw him .---- ,ii.
Who applied to you to come here ?—The Qu'"
~
How did she apply to you ?—By letter. ,
[The witness very composedly took snuff (Jur
ing his examination.] 'Lifts
Mr. WILLIAMS declined re-examining the
ness.
What were the different degrees in the serlifisi
in which Bergami was ?—The lowest degreeier,
hussar, the next is brigadier, and then (lung.'
master, and then marshal de logic. for
Lord CATHCART.—What description of slagt
tion do you consider that held by Bergami o°l
General Pino to have been ?—He was edam'
no..
to General Pino as courier of trust and c°'
dence.
V'
Was he attached to him as a domestic ?r'
There is some difference in this partici'or'
si,
Courier to a person of rank is not looked on
a servant in Italy.
fs'
Do you know from whom he received his •J
dt
lary ?—I know nothing about that, because 1101
not belong to the household of General Pin° '
Lll6'
was my superior officer, and I could not med.
with his private affairs.
Do you know whether Bergami's COBllecti?'
with General Pino had any relation to his puh- llc
o,i
service ?--I have already stated twice that ii,
was confidential courier; further I cannot °pa.
because I did not belong to the household, $0.4
could have no knowledge of the private cancer
of my superior officer.
The witness was then withdrawn:
CARLO FORTE examined.
of
By Mr. BROUGHAM through the medial:oo
the Italian Interpreter.—Q. Were you e!
courier in the service of the Princess of Will
—A. I was.
• ' ' h
When did you enter into the service of her Roy'st - I"
nets ?—On her departure from Milan.
Do you recollect if that was iii 1817 ?—Yes. 001
In whose service were you before in Italy, before yoa
_...1
into that of her Royal Highness ?-1 was in the sera
the Viceroy of Italy.
..-7 •4°
In what quality were you in the Viceroy's service •
chief courier of the capital. p 01
You said that when you entered the service of oe, -.:1,
cess. she was going away from Milan, where Was she IVO°.
To Rome.
Did you apply to be taken into her service ?—Yes, I aid'',
Now what was your motive fur making that application'
Because I was at that moment out of place. ~ on
You told us that her Royal Highness was going to
bad you any relation there ?—Brothers.
Any other near relative ?—'The Duchess de Cologne.
What relation was the Duchess to you ?—My aunt. the.
In what carriage slid her. Royal Highness travel o,,tet• '
journey from Milan to Elaine ?—ln a small English 1110.-„ar
How many other carriages had she with her on that-)" '
ney ?—Two more. and
Of what kind were these two?—One was a Cabrioletta.
the other a Bastadella. Caf'
What sort of carriage was the Bastadella ?—ft is -
riage covered, with four seats inside. ii
gnr
Now, was the landaulet you have spoken of an Engl°3
riage ?—lt was.
Was it different from the bastadella ?—lt
Was it of quite a different appearance I—lt was, with el
different seats. that
Did her Royal Highness have any other carriages on
journey I—No. el.
li.
Now, in which of those three did her Royal Ilig . '
travel I—ln the landaulet.
Had it glasses as is usual with such carriages I—lt had.
Had it any curtains ?—Yes.
of
What sort of curtains 1—Sill:. idt,
Do you remember whether those silk curtains tErew $9.,,p bf
up and down with a spring ?—They were pulled 61°' weft
means of strings, which kept them combined, and they
lifted up with a spring. - „4"
Now, do you remember leaving Rome to go to Sep ii
lia I—l do.
Did you travel by night or by day?—By night and Jaf'
Did you pass the first night on the road ?—Yes. ,z.ii4ati'
When did you rest the first day on the road ?—At '
A 5
at nine in the morning. , ..,
When did her Royal Highness rest the second day'
ten in the morning, at Loretto.
And at what time did you arrive at Senegaglia ?---Tn4 fat;
lowing dy, at 1 o'cloc
Do youa know a personk• of the name of Sacchi or Saccb'°i..
—I know Sacchini.
Did he accompany her Royal Highness on the joantir#
have just been speaking of?—He did. Aff
How did he travel on that journey ?—From Milan Obrie:
cone on horseback, and from Ancona to Rome in the cn goil
letter from Loretto to Rome the same as the day bef(taie
at Loretto I mounted on horseback myself, and aeconir
her Royal Highness to Rome.
Did you mount at Ancona or Loretto?—At Lorett?.oelf
Front Koine beck to Senegaglia, how did Sacchit" boat."
and how did you ?—Sacchini was in the cithriulettar "
,r , '
and I was on horseback beside the carriage.
fill
What was his business in going before the carriage '
order the horses and pay fur them. 7 a orofs
How did you travel on that same journey •-•-•
4'
horseback.
..is
)tstll'ber
Did you accompany the carriage on horseback • f, 0,,
to
t. When you near any ge, go on
Royal Highness'swere carriage 1 sta
—Aboutdid halfy ou
a mile before
..„1,
ing the end of a stage.
Do you mean to say, that excepting that half mile' fr 43 os
ways kept close t the cariage ?—I c.
Did Sacchini order ther horses of the Princess whenit:of i):‘
before her, as you have described, during the 1011 -.jai '
journey front Rome to Senegaglia I—He did, spa r 1,-•
them
Did any other at the same ti
rsome. , ionei.
pen ride as courier on that
iiii'
There was not. Cer"l
If there had been, must you have seen him -...-
let
because I was always there. . ncisu •
on %tVhhaot tor:et:slit:riff 1
—with
eh,eer
,Rzyhael,
itHighnessoyal ll i
giltitnit tit CoL:of
test of Oldi, Bergami. and Victorine.
thaOtnj
Did you ever see her, in the morning, Ott the ii"
In tie
journey?
11a_p
Verydi did Voi cftt
often
i ioi en
filege n el
.rapl l,;vf sit
her iiitt0t...:_i,.,.,0 5,1:05;
Countess of Oldi ?—Sometimes. 5..-
ro 'ln't'
middle,
did the Countess of o:di sit in the carriage • 4 liere
Do you mean in the middle, between the, 133, fight,
Royal Highness ?—Her Royal Highness W 55 "-Willy' iroef
Baron was on the left. and the Countess in tlie;stie.i.:ni the
Do you recollect whether during
front Milan to Rome, and front Rome to '
, , carrattc,..risg‘
Countess of Oldi ever travelled in Ali,' ',the' -condo' ,§.
Loretto she was taken ill, and Went into the sc
fit.,
loot
Whose place did she take in that carriage ? v
any part
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