The Sun.
London, England, 1829-04-06 00:00:00

laughter. )—My Lords, I have heard a great deal of
English common law, and I have heard that the law
against the Association was not rightly executed ;
that if the law against the Association was not sufficient,
other laws ought to hive been neide. With that opinion
I perfectly agree. I hope no one will attribute to me,
air arty Noble Lord, that for the purpose of keeping
we wen: actuated by unworthy inotives.-eallear.)—
taertain!y there Wi`i no one who could tat see to what these
things woeld lead. Bet it was hoped that better 'timea
neiehl name, anal ws 'were afraid of bring-inn tan ;lie
C iris. The crisis did come, and whet nets the result?
' The appointment of Mr. Canniran, and the adoption of those
measures by the. Government which have brought Ireland
and England into that state in which, I agree with the
Noble Entko, it is necessary there sheuhi now be a
settlement of die question. My Lords while speattitne, on
thin aubject, I hed almost forannen his Maje.ety's 'i"it to
Ireland. Who were. the persons Who Were present then?
- Who, but those who are now the Catholic Bishops, who
in theie paraphernalia anade an address to his Mt-
ionty. Was that no symptom? Could not tit it teed
then to exrert something, and, lent of all, the letnn
e hat was written on the subject. All these things must
Piave led men to expect what wart to come to rase.
• should have been ashamed, after the statement which
:had been made by the Noble Lord, to have Oeen:hied the
Honey at length, but I cannot forbear mentioning a story of
Erasmns.--(llear, hear, hear, and laughter.)--I mean a
dialogue between Charms and an evil spirit, in which
the latter told him that he must have a larger beet,
fur there were so many souls coming over the riVet Styx
in conseqnonce of religious disturbances, that: his present
hark would be unable to carry there over. I think that
ear!, is peculiarly applicable to the present !ante of the
nountry, for the father is now agaitest the son, the brother
• against the brother,and the landlord divided from the tenant,
and hardly any thing anae now wanting for tlum to curse
to blows. Such is the division of opinion amongst all
daises of persons, that I repeat the words, the landlord is
divided from the tenant, and even the fain sen--n(langhter)
e.lee part in broils. Every body is trying to do this for
the sake cf humanity towards. the poor Irish, Who are
roncerued in this question as much as the people of Mogul.
I should think that the sooner this matter is brought to
the Content tins better, but it must be clearly seen that
the mischief is with ourselves, and the Roman Ca-
thelicrn of Ireland have Mr disposition to act harshly
towards us if we only do them justice. —(Hear, hear. )
It is true we have had a Pill to put down the Catholic
Association, hat is there :toy one man who supposes that
he can execute t'artt law,—(hear, hear,)—for I assert that
all Linn, strong as they are, are carried by public opinion.
I recollect that I put down the volunteers who had for
manc years domineered over then Gauntry with
a Pimple proclamation. We then put down a more dan-
gerous association) but then we had the Protestants of
Ireland and the petaple of England to support us unani-
mously. Now, however, you have a part of the
Protestants cf Ireland, and nearly the ti-hole of
the 'landed proprietors, assenting to this mea-
snre, because they think it will improve their estates.
Von have also a large matority of the House of Commons
in favour of it.--(Hear, hear.)—l will now ask if, under
these circumstances, there is any Noble Lord who veil
take upon his Herculean shoulders the danger and
responsibility of refusing this concession.—(Hear, hear.)
I think no an has a right to resist this measure, unless
he is prepared to meet that danger and difficulty. lam
not only one of those who approve of this measure on
account of the policy of it, but from what ought
most ta operate on the consideration of all, the
nresent benefits to Ireland that will result from
in. Whatever the next grievance may be, for there will
lie some one, it will be long before so largo a ma-
jority of people of all ranks will be enlisted in their cause. I
4abeerve that one of the points in opposition to this
measure would have !teen that of a temporary
remedy, but I believe, that if such had been
tried, it would have been a useless attempt; and if we
bad made up our minds to emancipate Ireland, it never
could have been done at a better period than the present;
for If the Catholics can command the Government, the
Minister, and the landlord, I must think it better to
have a certain number of avowed Roman Catholics in
Parliament than to have a great number of secret sup-
porters of Catholicism, whom you would not know how
to appreciate, as they were acting under Catholic in-
firience.—(Hear, hear.)—:'mother part of the objection is
that by this measure we destroy the English Church.
Now, I think it is the only way to protect it. lam
satisfied that when this measure has passed, those
Noble Lords who have uniformly supported it
wilt stand up to protect the Protestant interest,
and the Church Establishment. I must now offer a few
observations on the coronation oath, and I think the (nes-
tiort alone stands in this way, whether the words,
of the coronation oath are technical or constructional,
In the first place, what are we to do supposing them to be
technical. The oath is a great law necessary for the ad-
mission into office; and from the time of Elizabeth I
find that oaths for public offices have at all times been
subject to continual alteration. Such was the case in the
reigns of Charles the Second, of King William, and
of Queen Anne ; and with regard to those oaths, it is
very curious that in both the Unions with this
country, it is specifically stated that they shall continue
-as they are ; how long? Why till they are altered.-
- (Hear, hear.)-;-We Will now come to the construction of
'them. A persein may act as he pleases on the construction
of them. His Majesty:if he thought it right to rob the
Church of any one gain, or any established property,
in this country, might do so. I contend, however, by
this measure you weaken Catholic power, for, instead of
having 100 Members in the Bnitish House of Commons,
or, as lately proved, above 200, the Catholics would not
have 20. On this construction of the present measure no
Protestant could complain that it affected his rights in
this country, and I believe that going apart in such case
would he nothing like a breach of the oath; if it would, there
is unfortunately many honourable men would be guilty of
this offence? There are two classes to which these oaths are
applicable, the civil and the military, and I should like to
-know which of the oaths of these two offices it is allowable
to alter. In 1793 the Attorney-General authorised me
to admit officers into the army with an alteration of the
oath, and within these two years the others have been
uttered. We are told that this measure is hostile to the
opinions of the people of England, and I am certain that if
such be the case that it will not have the beneficial
• effect anticipated. That question, however, can only be
decided by a reference to the petitions presented, and we are
told that there are 2,000 on the one side and 500 on the
other. That, at all events, only shows that there is a great
variety of opinion, and, I think, if they werefairly looked into
it would be found that oneahalf at least would be in sup-
port of this measure. lam certain that we lessen the
power of the Catholics by this Bill, and also, that we give
additional power to the people of England, and secu-
rity to their church. The Noble Lord then continued :
The wav in which these differences had been accounted for
was of the most extraordinary nature. It was said, when
Pitt and Fox differed, that one of them was right and
that the other was wrong—that- whenever they happened
to agree why both of them were wrong.—( Loud laughter. )
Just so with the Government to that time, and so

it is with the present Government,- M Lords, when

it shall be known that this measure has been
brought forward and sanctioned by his Majesty, and with
the consent of his Majesty's Council, I think, I may
venture es anticipate a concurrent opinion in the
public mind, and that when this Bill shall have
passed into a law, the country will reap from it tnose im-
portant benefits which in my judgment it is calculated to

confer upon us.
Lord SIDMOLITH.—My Lords, after the very extra-
ordinary speech of the Noble Lord who has just sit down,
I must claim your Lordships' particular attention to some

parrs of that speech, which I am honnd to notice.
My Lords, it has sometimes happened that when a per-
son has changed his own opinions, he has found
it necessary to resort to the expedient of incul-
pating others, for the express purpose of keeping up a
show of consistency. Whether or not this applies to the
Noble Lord it is not for me to say, but I confess that I
was never more surprised than at hearing the speech of
the Noble Lord—nor am 1 less surprised at the charges
which he has nude. My Lords, it is just eight years since

a respectable gentleman (Mr. Grant) was appointed to
the office of Chief Secretary of Ireland, which at that
time was in a very distracted state. I have already said
that Mr. Grant was a most respectable gentleman,

and with the utmost admiration for his talents, I

am free to admit that the appointment had not my concur-
rence; but I yielded to it from the distressing exigency of
the occasion. It is well known to the Noble Lord that the

appointment had not my approbation. lam compelled to
say thus much in reply to the chargeof the Noble Lord,
and I feel that I am justified in breaking punctilios, in
thus adverting to this circumstance. The animadversions
in which the Noble Lord, has indulged on my conduct,
were, I think, perfectly uncalled for. I will now, my
Lords, call your attention to another charge upon which
the Noble Lord laid the greatest stress. I mean
the reception which was given by his Majesty to
the Roman Catholic Bishops on presenting their address
after his Majesty's return to this country ; a question had
been put by a, NoWe Friend of mine whether there was
;NI o+CtiOn to his Majesty receiving Catholic Bishops in
elm character of 13ishops. As it was a point worthy of H