The Sun.
London, England, 1829-03-03 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS.-(LAST NIGHT.)

The Sraaxxa took the Chair precisely at Four o'clock.
Sir ROBERT HARRY INGLIS took the oaths and
his seat, as Member for the University of Oxford.
Lord MANDEVILLE presented several petitions from
places i❑ the county of Armagh, against any further con-
cessions to the Roman Catholics.

Lord CHANDOS presented a petition from the junior
Members, the Graduates, Undergraduates, and Bachelors
of Arts of the University of Oxford, against any further
concessions to the Catholics. The petition was signed by
upwards of 300 of the junior Members of the University.
Mr. BROUGHAM said that he wished to ask a ques-
tion of the Noble Lord who had presented the petition, but
so many observations from that side of the House bad been
misrepresented that he' felt it necessary to say that he
meant no disrespect to the Noble Lord, and only asked for
the purpose pf information. He wished to know what the
numbers of that body were of which these petitioners were
a portion ?.
Lord CHANDOS said that he really could not give the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman the information he required.
He was not aware of the numbers of the Undergraduates
and junior members of the University.
Doctor PHILLIMORE said that the feeling of the

junior members of the University was decidedly in favour
of Catholic Emancipation. lie believed the total number
of the junior members was about three thousand.
Mr. ESTCOURT said that he believed that his Learned
Friend had not over-rated the number, but when he as-
.

serted that the undergraduates were notoriously friends of
Emancipation, he would take leave to doubt the
correctness of that assertion.—(Hear, hear, hear).
But he would ask—where was the proof? The proof
was all on the other side.—( Hear, hear.)—They had on
their table a petition signed by several hundreds
of the junior members against Catholic concessions. If'
thought that much better evidence than the assertion of
his Learned Friend ?—(Cheers.)
Dr. PIIILLIMORE said that the junior members had
consulted him as to the propriety of petitioning Par-
liament in favour of the Roman Catholics, but ite

_ .
had dissuaded them from doing so, under the impression
that a petition from them would have comparatively little
weight, and that they had therefore better let the Catbolie
question take its course.

Mr. ESTCOURT said that that had nothing to do
with the question. It was mere advice, which amountA
to nothing.

Dr. PHILLIMORE, in explanation, said he did not
mean to deny that the petition represented the sentiments
of the 300 persons who had signed it, hut he meant to
contend that it did not represent the sentiments of the
junior members of the University.
Mr. VILLIERS STUART said that there was a 'lc_
bating society in Oxford, and it was clear that the senti-
ments of the Undergraduates were favourable to eman-
cipation, for at that society the question was carried by a
great majority.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.)
General KING presented a petition from the Gentry,
Clergy, and Freeholders of the county of Leitrim, against
any further concessions to the Roman Catholics.
Admiral SOT HERON presented a petition from Work-
sop and thirteen other places, against Catholic Emancipa-
tion. The petitions were respectably signed and worthy
the attention of the House.
Mr. DAVENPORT said no one was Allowed to attend
a meeting, where one of the petitions came from, unless
was fivourable to the views entertained by those who
cared it. The greatest exertions were made to obtain
st :•iatures, and he knew one of the petitioners to be a❑
itl..,t.—(Great laughter.)
Admiral SOTHERON said his Hon. Colleague must
.acknowledge that the petitioners were as a body very re-
spectable.

The petition was then brought up and read.
Mr. DIJNCOMBE had the honour to present fourteen
petitions against any further concessions to the Homan
Catholics, the first was from the town if Sheffield, aiid
signed by thirty thousand three hundred individua's. ((fear,
hear.) It was unnecessary for him to say, that he entinAy
agreed in the prayer of the petitioners, he wor:!,I I:,,Tv!y
recommend it to the serious consideration of tilt.
Mr. MARSHALL said, that by the last census the po-
pulation of Sheffield was only fifty thonaand, and yet the

sighed by thirty thousand adult males. It
had been got up by the Methodist preachers and tlt'a
Clergy., whilst the opposite petition had been btrow,-Ilt for-
tvaril in an open meeting, and hail `;re•_ rigtled by seven
thousand people. The petition now presented bad been
signed by children, the prisoner; of gaols. and by vagrant
mendicants.

Mr. DUNCOMU Said, that the signatures to the pe-
tition included the 'environs of Sheffield to the extent of
four or five toils. The petition certainly had M.ri .ti tient
to the gaol 'to be. signed, but the signatures Obttined there
had ~"'ter wards been struck out, He deprecated the dispo.
anion an the House to ungervaitte the petitions of the people.
Lord MILTON rins not disposed to cry down any peti-
tion « 'weever, *each less one so respectably sisttt :o. tcs
tik
..114 ocesented by his Hon Colleague, ire '".'v rid, how-
vv-r, reasstn'l his Hon. Colleagiteotalte Gt. tWn circumstances
'oe appeared to have forget, He (I.,rd Milton) did
'not mean to dispute the cesttectitbility of the signature-,
he never email sanction the manner in whieh the
rfle,ing was liel l where it ortginared. To prove that it
rots not a pilhrlC meeting, he would mention one tad a
Tyill nova knowl'ilge. A friend of his Was 'Vitt* tO the
'fleeter.; for the purpose of opposing the resolotions, when
he was informed tnat no strutilii not be admitted,
none tiut rhos- who were favourable to them would he
l!oa-ed to take part in the proceedings—(le:it., l'eat.,;)—
,=ieretore, with all due deference to the Hera Moniber,
ti,•.er cud call this a public tuee,oz—(Hear.)—where
oaly nue side over, allowed to take part. Now, the pet.
Simi which he (Lord Milton) hail the honour to present
last week. was agreed to at a public meeting, called by the
Master Ciitler, who was the proper constituter{ officer
for such put-to-a:4es, and attended by more than seven
thousand Individuals, nut of which number not more
than forty hands were held up against it, and the signa-
tures to which he would assert were highly respectable.
Mr. DUNCOMBE presented a petition from the inha-
bitants freehold..rs of Scarborough against the Catholic
Claims. The Hon. Member observed that it was most
numerously an .l respectably signed. He also presented sis
Lollar petitions from thirteen places in Yorkshire,
Mr. KEKEWICH presented a petition from the
Mayor and Corporation of Exeter, against the Catholic
Claims.

Mr. W. PEEL, on the resentation of the petition from
the Corporation of Exeter, trusted that the House would
not suppose it MB his intention to underrate the import-
ance or the influence of the petition. It professed to be
the petition of the Corporation ; httt he was authorised to
say that not one half of the Members had signed it.—
The feeling certainly by which those gentlemen was
influenced was, that they bad relied on the prudence of
his Majesty's Government in forming the Bill for the re-
moval of the disabilities under which the Roman Catholics
now laboured—and they trusted that the effect of the
measure would be to preserve rather than destroy the Con-
stitution.

KEKEWICH, then presented a petition from
Tamworth, and another from Paisley, against the Catholic
claims.

Colonel SIBTHORPE presented two petitions against
Catholic Emancipation from parishes in Lincoln. The
Hon. Member said that the petitioners had been thrown into
a state of surprise and alarm at the recent change which
had taken place in the sentiments of his Majesty's Mi-
nisters, and they felt it to be their duty to re-
sist any attempt that might he made for the
introduction of Roman Cttltolies into Parliament. They
were of the true John Bull breed, and wished to have no
spurious cross of a Papist Bull.—(Laughter.)

Mr. HOULDSWORTII presented-two Petitions from
parishes in the county of Devon, against the Catholic
Claims. The Hon. Member, on presenting these peti-
tions observed, that they were couched in firm and manly
terms. The petitioners had entered into a review of
the present state of Itsland, and were well convinced
that merely granting the claims of the Roman Catho-
lics would sot have the effect of beoefitting that country,
or setting at rest those feuds, by which it was unhappily
distracted-,

rslre GREEN presented a petition from the inhabitants
(.)f ieilvetston, Lancashire, against the Catholic Claims.
The Hon. Member said that the petition was [signed by a
great number of independent Freeholders, whose ancestors
lied fought for their country.
Mr. H. MAXWELL presented a petition from the
Seteders of Renfrew, against further concessions to the
Catholics ; also several other similar petitions from varione
places in Scotland, and from places in the county of
Armagh.
Mr. MOORE presented similar petitions from the Pro-
testant inhabitants of Kilmany, and other places in the
Queen's County.
General GASCOYNE presented a petition from Man-
chester—a 'et which for- wealth, respectability, and
independence, eras second to none in the kingdom. He
need hardly inform the House that the petition was against
all further concessions to the Roman Catholics—a prayer
an which the great body of the people of this empire most
earnestly joined..--(hear, hear, and expressions of 'dissent.)
The petition was from the magistrates, merchants,
clergy, and other inhabitants of the towns of Manchester,
Salford, and their neighbourhood. The petition had at-
tached to it the signatures of 2,000 persons—(A laugh)—
he begged pardon, he meant 22,000 persons; amongst
whom were to be found the magistrates, warden, fifty
?t the clergy, and a great proportion of the respectable
inhabitants of the town. He la.. 'arther to state, that
the signatures had been most easily obtained.—(Hear,
hear, and a laugh.)—Persons had been employed to take
the
sons so r..eaployed found that the inhabitants came to their
doore and signed them almost unsolicited.—(A laugh. )—lf
Hon. Members required an explanation of the word "al-
most" he would say, that it was fiuind necessary to explain
the nature and objects of the petition before the signatures
of individuate could be obtained to it. He looked upon that
petition to be one of a most important nature ; to he, in fact,
a pattern upon which others might be drawn up o,d signed.
--(ilear.)—That petition contained not only the trade or
Profession of the person signing; but also, in most instances,
the name of the street, and this number at which he resided.
He could assure the House that the tannest care had beer.
taken in getting up the petition. He had not certainly
linked over the whole of the names, but he had closely ex-
amined five out of one hundred and thirteen sheets upon
whir, they were written, and he did not e-e a single name
which he could suppose to be that of a female amongst them.
--(A laugh.)—He assured Hun. Members that he was by
no means opposed to allowing females to sign such I.,etitions,
as he considered that they hail great interest in the subject
ta which they related. The G dlant Officer proceeded to
read some extracts from the petition, whit.), prayed for the
utter suppression of the Catholic Associaiion, and that no
further concessions he granted to the Roman Catholics.
Upon the question that the petition he brought up,
Sir GEO. said though the petition just
presented by the Gallant Officer did conteie the signatures
of 22,000 persons, he denied that it expressed the opinions
of the majority of educated persons residing in Manches-
ter, or of its population generally. He must observe,
too, that notwithstanding the anxious manner in which
the inhabitants were said to have come forward to sign it,
it was the elaborate production of a quarter of a year.—
The declaration was got up in November, and signed by
506 laymen, and 44 of the clergy, calling upon the oppo-
nents of Catholic Emancipation to meet on a certain day.
That requisition was met by a counter-declaration, signed
by 431 of the first inhabitants of Manchester, for pro-
perty, education, and independence.—(Hear.)—lt was
true that there were many respectable names attached to the
first declaration ; but in that respect it bore no compari.
son with the other, the persons signing which represented
four millions of property. Those who signed the counter-
petition, however, took no further steps, but confided in
the wisdom of Ministers; and in this they were justified by
the petition of 1825. The town of Manchester had not been
lowered or degraded since that period ; on the contrary, it
had increased in intelligence, and the result was that many
persons then opposed to the claims of the Roman Catho-
lics were now ranked amongst the supporters of those claims.
The petition then before the House had been hawked round
the streets by the churchwardens and vestries, and every
effort was made to obtain signatures. On one occasion,
the vestry were requested to take the petition to a school
where there were upwards of one bundred children ; but
the persons applied to hail the good sense to resist the ep-
plication. On another occasion, it was proposed to take
the petition to the workhouse for the purpose of obtaining
the signatures of the paupers, but this proposal was also
very properly resisted. He mentioned these matters, in
order to show the kind of agency resorted to in order to
get up such petitions; and it was not too much to suppose
that in several cases, where a proper resistance was not
made, such efforts were successful. The petitions had
been placed at the doors of Methodist chapels, and at
turnpike gates, and boys and carters were eked to sign their
names ; and in cases where the parties could not write,
other persons signed for them.—(Hear, hear.) The Gallant
officer had represented the petition as that of the towns of
Manchester and Salford, and the neighbourhood ; but how
far that neighbourhood was meant to extend, he (Sir
G. Phillips) could not pretend to say. The townships of
the parish of Manchester amounted to thirty, and-contained
a population of 250,000 inhabitants. Now he would put
it to any lion. Member how far 22,000 persons could be
looked upon as the majority et that body, or as containing
4-sths of its property and independence.—(Hear, hear,
mixed with hisses, and cries of " Question !) It. was not

untathral that those who differed with him upon this
subject should feel some impatience at hearing his state-
ments—but upon this they raiglit depend, that he was
determined not to be put down.—(Hear, hear.) Out
of a population of 230,000 persons, tl:e nut-diet•
signatures was so entail ih ptoportiolij that the
petition did Pot eipi'eSS th,6 behle of the people.—
But, as aPothee ptiot that the petition did not express
the 'l4 te of Manchester, he might mention that of the two
Subscription-rooms, the Portico anti the ExChangeZ--I'do
the former of which there were 4,000 st.llA;r.-ihe';'s, and to
the latter of which all the 'reitPeCtahle people in town re-
sorted—only tIvO persons bad subscribed from the first,
ard
woald not bear a comi arisen with that of 1825, when
28.000 sigualurea were obtained in thirteen weeks; a fact
which connected with the paucity of sianatitres attached
to the present. showed what was the telie of the people of
11,nehester. Perhaps the Hobse would allow him to
mention no eirennistanee coldseeted with these petitions.
Tie 4ailne et:tempt at clamour had been made now against
the measure for ;he redet to the Catholics, which Intl been
made a century ago against the Union With Scotland. It
might be amusing to the EloUse to know, that one of the
most acti7e agents in raising that clamour was the Earl of
Yhttinglam. It should seem as if the fear of the over-
throw of Church and State descended by inheritance
to the Earl of Nottingharn.—(Qaestion.)-s-The Earl
ot that day was as far from bet!”.; fsveliealde to the
Union with Scotland ai was the Earl of the present
day from !avbilr.ng the concessions to tie Catholics. It
tYdght be amusing to the House—(No, ne) ;—but whether
it was amusing to the House or not, he intended to read
(laughter) the words of the Earl of Nottingham of that
day, regarding the Union with Scotland, that great mea-
sure of national union on which there was now no division
of opiuion, but which he believed had not produced greater
benefit to both countries than would be produced by the
measures now proposed with regard to the Catholics. His
wo ds were—" If that Union does pass, as I have no reason
to doubt it will, I may justly affirm that I have outlived all
the laws, and the very Constitution of England, and I
therefore pray God to avert the dire effects of such an itn-
pauperating Union." In some future year the groundless-
ness of the fears new existing with regard to Catholic
Emancipation would be shown as strongly as those then
expressed with respect to the Union.
An Has. MEMBEK could bear his testimony to:the re-
spectability of the petitioners.
The petition was then laid on the table.
Sir EDWARD KNATCHBULL presented petitions—
twelve from parishes in the county of Kent, and two
from parishes in Norfolk, against further concessions
to the Roman Catholics.—Laid on the table.
Mr. TtNNY SON postponed his motion regarding East
Retford to Friday, the 17th April.
CATHOLICS.
Sir STEPHEN COLE presented a petition from the
parish of Gilston, in Glamorganshire, against further
concessions to the Catholics, but expressed his dissent from

its prayer.
Mr. CARTWRIGHT presented similar petitions from
two perishes in Norfolk.
Mr. WALL presented a petition from the inhabitants of
Guilford, in favour of concession.
Mr. NORTON said, that although no doubt that peti•
tion expressed the sense of a numerous and respectable
portion of the inhabitants of that borough, yet there was
another portion who were equally respectable, who would
present a counter petition in a few days.
Lord BECTIVE presented a petition in favour of con-
cession from the county of Meath, and from one parish in
the same county against the sub-letting Act; and from
four parishes there against the Vestry Act. He also pre-
sented a petition from the Catholics of Navan, in the
same county, complaining that not only were their children
excluded front the advantages of the education given to the
poor, but they were beset by proselytising landlords.
Mr. 11. HOWARD presented a petition from Chichester,
most respectably signed, against the employment of Climb-
ing Boys in cleansing Chimneys.
Mr. HANCOCK presented a petition from Shitnrone,
in King's county, against concessions to the Catholics.
Sir C. A. HASTINGS presented a petition from the
Mayor add Burgesses of Leicester, against concession, and
expressed his concurrence with the opinions of the peti-
tioners.
Mr. 0. CAVE said it was his duty to express to the
House, with respect to that petition from the inhabitants
of the town and county of Leicester—
Sir C. A. HASTINGS—No, it is from the mayor and
burgesses.—(A laugh.)
The petition was laid on the table.
Mr. DICK presented a petition from the borough of
3,lalilon against concession.
LENNA RD remarked, that this petition, signed
only by one hundred and fifty persons, purported to come
front a district and neighbourhood containing six thousand
persons. That borough and district were, till lately, re-
markable for their opposition to the Catholic Claims, and
the paucity of numbers he had now remarked tended to
show the alteration that had taken place.
Mr. C'AWTIIORNE presented a petition from the
town of Lancaster against concessions to the Catholics.
Mr. CURTEIS presented a similar petition from the
ship-owners, &sc. of Westbourne, in Sussex.
Mr. A. CAMPBELL presented similar petitions from
the Corporations of Barbers and Cordwainas in the town
of Glasgow.
Mr. WALLIS gave notice of a motion for Friday, re-
specting the Act to remedy the abuses in Charities.
Colonel 'WILSON pi-seated a petition from the inhabi•-
tante of Stockton-on-Tees, against further concessions.
Having already expressed his sentiments i,• that subject—
(a laugh)--he should not trouble the House at that mo-
ment further than to say that the petition was .most re-
spectably- signed.
Mr. LEYCESTER presented-a petition from Alton, in
the county of Southampton.—Ordered to lie on the table.
Mr. MABERL Y ?resented a petition from Aningdon
eisainst coneession.
The LORD MAYOR had a petition to present against
further concessions to the Roman Catholies. That peti-
tion came from the Clergy of London, incorporated tinder
the style and title of the President and Fellows of Sion Col-
leee, withi❑ tee city of Loudou. Toe Right Hun. Gen-
tleman then reed part of the petition, which stated that
tt.e petitioners were opposed to coeceesion, not ruin any
spirit of intolerance, but from a fear that it would he in-
consistent with the security of the Constitution. Ile then
ob:iereed, that during the ten years he had had the honour
of a seat in that House, he had thought it his duty to give
his opposition to eonces-ion. lie had always done so from
the moat disinterested and con.cientioue feeling ; but he
was free to confess, that the question wee now about to be
brought under the consideration of the House under dif-
ferent circumstances from any under which it had previ-
ously appeared before it. lie would not, therefore, join in
reprobating a measure not yet proposed to them, and of
which that House was still ignorant ; but he was ready to
believe that the measure was recommended from a feeling
of its necessity by his Majesty's Government. He had
hitherto had full confidence in the Government, and he
would not withdraw that confidence until lie had better
reasons for doing so than the proposal of the measure seemed
to offer.—Ordered to be printed.
Mr. HUME said, it was with much pleasure he had to
offer to the House a petition from the Dean and Guild,
Council and Brethren of the Corporation of the Royal
Burgh of Arbroath, in favour of the Catholic Claims.
He knew, on good author ity, that by far the majority
of the people of Scotland were in favour of the removal of
all civil disabilities on account of religious opinions. There
had been one or two meetings in Glasgow and other places,
at which Resolutions had been passed against the exclusion
of the Catholics. In Glasgow, particularly, it must be
gratifying to his Majesty's Government to find that the
petition for the Catholics had been carried by a large ma-
jority. The purport of the Resolutions on which the present
petition was fiamded was, that it was the opinion of the
petitioners that all political disabilities on account of reli-
gious opinions were as impolitic as unjust, and contrary to
the spirit of Christianity'. he meeting consisted of several
hundreds of people, and it was resolved to be their convic-
tion that much of the disquiet of the people of Ireland arose
from the injustice with which they had been treated, and
the petitioner► were thankful to his Majesty's Ministers for
their endeavours to promote the tranquilli•y of that coun-
try. The Hon. Gentleman also stated, that he had re-
ceived communications from all parts of Se,,tland, and they
all agreed, without one exception, in confirming what ►ie
had stated before—that the people of Scotland had very
much changed their opinions on this question.
Marquis GRAHAM presented petitions from the pa-
rishes of St. Sepulchre, and St. Andrew the Great, in
Cambridge, against the Catholic Claims.
Sir GEORGE COCKBURN presented a petition very
numerously signed by the Protestant Dissenters and other
residents in and near Plymouth, stating their full anti gra-
tifying sense of the civil and religious liberties they enjoy-
ed, and praying that equal privileges might he extended
to all classes of his Majesty's subjects : and in order to ren-
der their services available to the public good, and thereby
add materially to the power, greatness, and prosperity of
the country. The petition was very respectably as well as
numerously signed, and entitled to theattention of the House.
On the motion of Mr. P. MeccstreeN, the Order of the
Day for the Committee on the Settlement by Hiring Bill
was postponed.
On the motion of the Cuanctto.oa. of the EXCITE-

Quxh, the Order of the Day . for the Coannitiee on the
Clerk of the Pleas (Ireland) Bill was postponed till Mon.
day next.

COMMITTEE OP SUPIIL-V%

Thb CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then
moved, that the Order be read fur the whole House to go
into a Committee of Supply.
Mr. JEPHSON had a question to ask the Right Hon.
Gentletiian, which reiaked ho the area of the tetroval of
the drawback formerly allowed on the exportation of win-
dow glass from Ireland ? This removal had been very in-
jurious to the glass works of that country; and as from
the statement made by the Right Hon. Gentleman when
he brought the question fotward, it was evident he was
fully aware of the state of this manufacture, in Leland, of
which a great share was gradually introduced into this
Country, he (Jr. Jeplison) hoped for the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman's attention to the subject. The fact was, that the
price of window glass had sustained a great increase; it
was now threttold what it watt before the removal of the
drawback. He asked for its renewal, in order to give
some relief to the poorer classes, who subsisted by the
glass-works, without, he believed, injuring the revenue.
It was desirable, he thought, that a drawback of the same
amount as was formerly allowed should be granted to the
glass manufacture of Ireland, as to pieces of certain dimen-
sions, and of certain kinda, beginning, for example, with
thou• of one foot square.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could
baldly think that the amount of glass manufactured in
Ireland had been affected by the removal of the drawback.
Certainly no information had been received by Govern-
ment to that effect ; and when the House considered the
relative value of the article then and now, he could not
believe that such an effect had been produced. The object
of the removal of the drawback was to put an end to the
enormous extent of fraud. He was disposed to give every
relaxation that could be afforded, so as to increase the em-
ployment of the lower orders of Ireland. If the draw-
back were re-established, it would only again give rise,
he feared, to a great deal of fraud on the Revenue,
and be of no benefit to the people. For those reasons he
could not hold out any hope of acceding to the lion.
Member's views.

Mr. JEPHSON really thought the duty on glass exces-
sive; on what was intrinsically worth only 41., the duty
was between 6/. and 71.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
duty was only SI. 135., which, looking to the cost of the
glass, was, he thought, not very disproportionate.
ORDNANCE ESTIMATES. •
The House then went into a Committee, to which the
Ordnance Estimates were referred.
Mr. PERCEVAL said, that in appearance the Esti-
mates this year were greater than those of last year, and in
the vete he should have to propose there was a very large
increase. There was, undoubtedly, an increase in the vote
for this year as compared with the last, which was
125,897/, as it was stated at the bottom of the fourth
page of the Estimates lying before the Committee. In en-
tering on the comparison of the two years, he should leave
out entirely the sum of 6,115/. to be voted for five compa-
nies of the Royal Staff Corps, who were to be transferred
to the Ordnance from the 24th of June next, and which,
therefore, would, from that time, hear an increased charge
to that amount on the Army Estimates. It had formed
no part of the former charge, and could not fairly enter into
the comparison between this year and the last. He should
therefore leaVe it entirely out of the question, and consider
the vote far this year was 125,897/.,more than last year.
The Board of Ordnance had been able to snake credits to
the extent of 49,1501. less this year than the last. These
credits arose from the rent of building land in Kent, and
the sale of old stores. Large quantities of stores used to
he kept, and from time to time considerable sales of these
had been made, the produce of Which had. gone in diminu-
tion of the sum to be asked from Parliament.
Deducting this sum from the actual increase appa-
rent on the estimates, there would remain an increase of
expenditure this year to the amount of 76,7471. In stating
this increase to the Committee, he begged to remind
those Hon. Members who had given their attention to the
Estimates of this department, and who belonged to the
Finance Committee, or who had read the Report with re-
gard to it, that in that document they would find the evi-
dence of his Right Hon. Friend, the Secretary at War,
who, speaking on the subject of the works, stated, that
" to diminish the expenditure by 75,0001. or 100,000/.
this department had been reduced, in 1827, as low as it
could possibly be ;" and his Right Hon. Friend after-
wards explained, that " there must be a surplus, because
military orders were peremptory ;" adding, that, " accord-
ing to the evidence before the Committee, this reduction
would be no saving." His Hon. Friend, Sir George
Clerk, also stated that he was perfectly aware of the fact,
that " when the proposition was made the Inspector-Ge-
neral protested that it was impracticable, unless perfectly
understood that it was intended only as an experiment for
one year." The consequence of this was an increase, under
thV head of works and fortifications, to the amount of
69,0001. ; to which adding the increase of 14,0001. for
the purchase of stores, the general increase was accounted
for. By turning to the same evidence, Hon. Members
would see, on the same authority, that it was impossible
for the business of the department to go on with so small a
vote for stores as had hitherto sufficed ; and for the same
reason, namely, because formery the Board was able to
deduct sums for the sale of stores, and come to this House
and ask for much smaller votes on account of that sur-
plus. The stock would for the future be adjusted to the
real demand every year. As there was an increase of
69,0001. for works, 14,000/. more for stores, and in other
items 83,000/., and as the excess of expenditure altogether
was only 125,8971., it was obvious to common sense that
there must be altogether on the other heads of the estimates
A diminution to the amount of 30,000/. It was Fatibfae-
tory to state, that this diminution was chiefly in the estab-
lishment of the Ordnance; it was especially in the Civil
Establishment, in the• Departments at Woolwich, in the
Medical Establishment, and in the Royal Military Aca-
demy, that reductions had taken place. He ought to re-
mark, that for that very reason, the considering the reduc-
tiou in the charge for the artdiery, which had been forced
on the Ordnance Establishment in 1828, it would he un-
fair to take that year in comparison with the present year.
Fite only fair mode would be, to compare these Estimates
with an average of the three years betme 1828, and then
it would be proved that there was a diminution of 20,000/.
a year: The average expellee of the artillery during those
three years was 914,214/., and the expenee for 1829 would
be 893,9001., which was a diminution, as he had before
stated, of nearly 20,000/. On dividing the Estimates of
that year into the two heads of effective and non-effective, it
semi d appear that on the effective there was is decrease of
74,0001. ; inete id of which there was, on the other hand,
an increase on the non-effective head, of about 76,000/.
He would only observe, that the decrease was on the effec-
tive, and not on the non-effective, which was beyond the
controul of the Oidnance Department; for when once the
superannuation was fixed, it remained during the life of,the
party ; and these charges frequently resulted from the very
reductions made in the Establishments with the view of
decreasing the public expenditure. He did not doubt that
many Hon. Members would be much perplexed in examin-
ing these estimates, as the changes in their mode of com-
pilation had been considerable, with the view of bringing
under the distinct heads all the proper expenses of each.
Sever al sums that used to be voted in what were called
the Supplementary Estimates, were now included in the
items to which they properly belonged. A great number of
clerks' salaries had been voted formerly under the head of
Barracks, Military Stores, and the Superannuation Esta-
blishments. The whole charge of the Civil Establishment
would now be borne under that head. In comparing the no-
minal items for the Pall-mall Office this year with the nomi-
nal items of last year, the present estimates would appear
much greater than they recently were. On the whole, the
expense of the Civil Establishment last year was 483,531/,
and the vote now proposed would be 500,600/. ; but it
sheuld be remembered, that under this head the charges for
the clerks were borne, who in 1828 were supplied from a
different source. If to 463,500/. were added this increase of
24,000/. the vote for that year would amount to 507,500/. ;
from which deducting the present vote of 500,6104, and the
result would show, that on the Civil Establishment, there
was an actual diminution of nearly 7,000/. In the other
votes for the Departments at Woolwich, the Medical Esta-
blishment and the Professors of the Royal Military Aca-
demy, there was a small reduction ; in the Military Corps
there was the same establishment as last year, and conse-
quently the same charge. He had only now to invite the
attention of the Committee to the Extraordinariee, which
included two items, one for 79,4451. for the military store
branch, and 14,1671. for furniture and stores for barracks
and hospitals. Into the other items he would not enter in
detail, as they were small in amount, and of a fluctuating
nature ; he meant such as the different heads of contingent
and miscellaneous charges. There was one item of 18,400/.
for the purchase of land at Sheerness, to keep off the erec-
tion of buildings which might interfere with the works.
The same observation held good With regard to the or-
dinary service of Ireland; for if the vote to be proposed
for this year was merely compared with that of last year,
there would seem an excess in the present vote. The
charge of last year was only 124,108/., and for this year
128,979/. ; but the apparent increase was owing to the
transfer of charges to this department. In the super-
annuation for military and civil -services there was an ap-
parent increase, and actually was, so far as the vote was
concerned of 2,3711. ; but the actual charge to the public

was lint really greater. When the Hoa. Baronet (Sir G.
Clerk), who preceded him in this office submitted the
Estimates last year, he followed a course With regard to
the superannuation allowance which had not been pursued
previoo.ly in the Ordnance deportment, and which he (Mr.
Perceval) would not continue. Thilt course was, to de-
duct from the estimate of the charge the savings made by
the superannuation of officers, and by their promotion or
death. By this plan 2,0001. had been deducted from this
item last year. He would not enter into the argument of
this mode of proceeding, but merely state that it would
not be pursued, and he referred to it merely to exp'ain the
apparent increase of the item this year. The Hon. Gen-
tleman made some further remarks on other ite.ns, but he
spoke in an low a tone, and the noise in the Gallery all
through his speech was so great, that he could not be heard
distinctly for a sentence toeirther. He concluded by moving
that " there be granted to his Majesty a sum of 70.5441.,
to defray the salaries of the Master-General, the Lieute-
n tat-General, and the rest of the principal Officers and
Clerk. in the Ordnance Office at the Tower and Pall-mall,
for 1829."
Mr. HUME confessed lie was rather disposed to waive
the discussion of these Estimates, as a very long time had
been spent by the Finance Committee in examining them ;
and he owned that by the evidence, very little progress
was made to warrant any reduction whatever. The Gal-
lant Officer. the Secretary at War, had given a decisive
opinion on the subject of almost every reduction ; and lie
willingly conceded that the Gallant Officer had done so
with perfect propriety. The difference between those Es-
timates and those of last year it was undoubtedly very dif-
ficult to understand, though on the whole he believed the
aggregate increase was not so great as it appeared. He
approved of any consolidation of the public accounts : it
was desirable that they should be rendered clear and dis-
tinct, and each head brought under one view. He was
not able, for want of the necessary returns, to make out
where additions had been made; but be observed in some
instances that there was a much greater number of per-
sons included in those items. The clerks of the Sur-
veyor-General, last year were 29 in number; this year
they were increased to 47 : the clerks of the Ordnance
from 23 were increased to 33, and in another department
they were raised from 17 to 32. He had no means, at
present, of knowing whether this increase was correct.
He regretted extremely to observe, from the expressions
used by the Hon. Gentleman, that his Majesty's Ministers
seemed to consider themselves to have reduced to the lowest
ebb the department of Ordnance. The artillery were now
separated from the Commander-in-Chief, who knew the
officers only by chance in foreign service ; and this would
remain so while there was an intermediate in the person
of the Master-General, who stopped all communication.
He submitted to the Gallant Officer (Sir H. Hardinge),
whether it would not be attended with great reduction and
great benefit to that branch of our military service, if, in-
stead of a separate department, consisting of the Master-
General, Lieut.-General, and other chief officers of the
Board of Ordnance, who had duties incompotible with a
due attention to the artillery, that corps were placed with
a command, directly under the Commander-in-Chief ;
and the same course he would recommend with regard
to the Engineers ; and thus the whole military branch
of Ordnance might be detached from that depart-
ment, which would remain charged only with its
proper duty of keeping the stores. In India the
artillery were so placed, with a commandant of
their own under the Commander-in-Chief. The divest-
ing of the military branch from the Ordnance would ren-
der unnecessary the office of Master-General and Sur-
veyor-General, and the charge of the department would
be greatly reduced. Only so many individuals should be
kept up as there was actual necessity for ; hut at present,
owing to the complicated duties discharged there the num-
ber was unreasonably great. For example, there were 26
messengers for this department alone—enough for the
whole public offices together ; and these men had salaries
of 1001., 901., and 80/. a year. He had often asked, and
never received a satisfactory answer to his question, why
this number was kept up ? Ile could only imagine they
were rendered necessary by going messages from the one
half of the offices in the Tower to the other half at Pall-
mall. A very large portion of the 70,5441., which it was
now proposed to vote, might be dispensed with. In 1796
the whole of that part of the Ordnance service for which it
was now proposed to vote that sum of 70,5441. was limited
to the expence of 18,7001.
Mr. PERCEVAL defended the vote.
Mr. A. BARING, adverting to the proposed grants in
the Estimates for Canada and Nova Scotia, wished to
know how the works there stood.
Sir 11. HARDINGE stated that these were in progress.
The gross sum which it was estimated would be required
to place those colonies in a perfect state of defence was a
million and a half; but only 35,0001. were asked for the
present year. That great work, the Rideau Canal, when
completed, would answer every purpose for which it was
intended when it was originally proposed.
Mr. BARING, although he acknowledged that the
Rideau Canal would be a great improvement to the Cana-
das, t:,aught the money laid out upon it extravagant.
Mr. HUME observed, that no answer had been made
to his objection to the 26 Messengers.
Sir H. HARDINtiE replied, that the intercourse be-
tween the Tower, Tooley-strcet, and Pall-mall, gave
them enough to do. Employing a Messenger to :Woolwich
had been found to save 2001. a-year, as compared with
sending letters by post; besides the conveniece of the at,
raogeniant in point of time.
Mr. MAI3ERLY said, that there were always men and
• horses enough at Woolwich. Why not employ a military
• instead of a civil messenger? Why not consolidate the
• establishments of the Tower and Pall-Mall ? Let the
_clerks be removed from the Tower to Pall-Mall, and then
so many porters and messengers would bo unnecessary.
Mr. PERCEVAL said that the stores rendered it ad-
visable to keep some of the clerks at the Tower; and that
the saving effected by the recommendation of the Hon.
Gentleman would he very trifling.
Mr. MABERLY explained.
Sir HENRY HARDINGE acknowledged that it would
he personally convenient to himself, were the clerks at the
Tower brought to Pall-Mall. But as, under any circum-
stances, same of the clerks must be left at the Tower,
the full benefit of a removal could not be derived.—

Atide,l; ;;:i;;as—the consideration of the compensation
th a must be given to them for the house which they now
had at the Tower.
After a few words from Mr. Hums, the CHANCELLOa
of the EXCHEQUER, and Mr. MAIKKLT, the vote of
70,5441. was agreed to.
On the question for granting 8,6001. for defraying the
expellee of Salaries of the Officers of the Establishment at
Woolwich,
Mr. HUME inquired why the Inspector-General of
Artillery, who was an officer, continued to receive 3501.
a-year, besides his other emoluments ?
Sir HENRY HARDINGE—The Inspector, though a
General in rank, had only a Colonel's pay, and the 3501.
was only Staff pay.
Mr. MABERLY recommended that instead of a mili-
tary officer to inspect the artillery, which embraced much
common work, a skilful wheelwright should be appointed
to the office.

Sir HENRY FIARDINGE said, that all the improve-
ments made in our artillery, which had brought it to be the
most effective in Europe, had been effected by officers.
Mr. HUSIE was of opinion that a wheelwright, or
skilful mechanic, would be better for the office than a Gene-
ral Officer. But letting that pass, he begged to inquire
why an Inspector of Gunpowder was kept at Feversham,
when the powder was made at Waltham Abbey ? We made
about one thousand barrels of powder a year at Waltham
Abbey ; and the inspector of this manufactory lived at
Feversham. This was a good specimen of the mode of
managing business at the Ordnance.

-Sir HENRY HARDINGE contended that it was ne-
cessary to have a good store of powder in case of war ;
and according to the scale of our expenditure last war, we
had not above three or four years' supply on hand. At
Feversham there was a manufactory for restoring and dust-
ing powder ; and if the Inspector lived at Waltham, he
would have to visit Feversham. The Ordnance wished to
consolidate the manufacture, but it was impossible, for the
buildings were already erected at Fevereham and at Wal-
tham Abbey.
Mr. HUME contended that viliat was done at Fever•
own might be done at Waltham Abbey. We were manu-
facturing powder at an actual lose, which might be avoid-
ed. Ile had visited the powder manufactory at Fever-
sham, in order' to verify some statements made to him, and
the persons present would not admit him.—(A laugh.)—
It was quite wrong to calculate the expense of powder by
what we expended when we had 360,000 men under
arms, and 1,000 pendants flying. Our present expendi-
ditui'e was 8 000 barrels a year, and we had 200,000 bar-
rels in store.
Sir HENRY HARDINGE observed, that in the 16th
Report of the Military Commissioners, it was stated that
the establishment at 'Waltham Abbey had saved the coun-
try 79,4531. up to 1814, and since that period it had saved
the country 25,000/. per year.
After a few further observations from Mr. Wynn, Sir
Henry Hardinge, Mr. Hume, Mr. Maberly, and Mr.
Baring, the vote was agreed to.
On the question for granting 42,8171. for the salary of
thew Civil Establishments of the °flee of Ordnance on the
Home and Foreign Stations,
Mr. HUME objected to the salary of the Storekeeper

at Dover and Enfield, and contended that these two offices
were unnecessary.
After a cgsversatien between Mr. Perceval, Sir H.
Hardinge, and Mr. Hume, the vote was passed.
The next votes were for 3,813/. for the expenses of
Master Gunners ; 71,959/. for the corps of Engineers
and Sappers and Miners.
Mr. HUME objected to the great sum charged for the
pay of officers in this latter department.
Sir H. HARDINGE said that the subject had been
scrutinised by the Finmsce Committee, and that in his
opinion, the Officers of Engineers were the most employ-
ed sand the worst paid.
The next vote was for 257,342/. for the Artillery.
Mr. HUME objected to keeping up 4,000 Artillery-
men in peace. The whole expence prior to 1793 tvas
100,0001.
The next votes were 29,413/. for the Horse and Rocket
Artillery; 1,223/. for the Director of Artillery and the
Field Train ; 8,392/. for the Medical Establishment of
the Ordnance.

Mr. HUME wished the Medical Officers to be available
for every branch of service. Government were discharg-
ing Medical Officers of the army, and taking on others for
the Ordnance.

Sir H. HARDINGE maintained that such an arrange-
ment would not be to the advantage of the public service.
The number of Medical Officers had been reduced from
118 to about 30. . _

' Mr. BARING could not agree in the necessity of sepa-
rate Medical Establishments for the different branches of
the service.

The vote was then put and carried.
On the vote of 8,5071. to the Professors of the Royal
Academy at Woolwich,
Mr. HUME suggested that the Establishment ought to
be assitnilated to that of the Naval Academy. In peace
individuals ought to pay for their own education.
On the vote of 430.715/. for the Extraordinaries of the
Ordnance, deducting 130,0001. for old stores,
Mr. WARBURTON thought the public ought to have
the benefit of the Ordnance survey, which had cost so
much, and that the survey of Ireland ought to be finished.
Sir H. HARDINGE said, that the Irish
_survey would
be carried on immediately, and the whole would be en-
graved in the Tower of London.
After a few words from the CHANCELLOR of the
EXCHEQUER,
Mr. HUME adverted to the great expences incurred ut
the Colonies, and maintained that the Colonies ought to
bear such charges. The money raised at Gibraltar, for
public works, was brought to England, and applied to the
King's private purse, and the people of England were
then taxed to perform these works.—(Hear, hear.)—The
Hun. Member went into several other practices of a simi-
lar nature.
A MEMBER said that these sums were applied to the
King's Palace.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. PERCEVAL said that the repairs of Gibraltar
were very extensive.
Mr. MABERLY observed, that the works of Canada
would oblige Government to keep double the present force
to defend it, and very soon the Canadian would see th•
expediency of governing themselves.
Mr. S. PERCEVAL next moved that a vote of
302,5761. be granted as the charge of the Office of Ord-
nance for the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ire-
land, on account of allowances to superannuated, retired,
and half-pay Officers ;to Officers for good services ;to
superannuated and disabled men ; also for pensions to
widows and children of deceased Officers, late belonging to
the several Ordnance Military Corps, for the year 1829.
After a few words from Mr. Hume and Mr, CROKSK,
The resolution was ae,teed to.
Mr. S. PERCEVAL next moved that a vote of
45,6441. be granted to his Majesty as the estimate of
charge fot the Civil Superannuated or Retired Allowances
to persons late belonging to the Office of Ordnance in the
United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, in respect
of their having held any public offices or employments of a
civil ■atute. _ .

The next Resolution was 117,6361. as the total sum
for the expence of Barracks in Great Britain and Ire-
land, which, as well as the preceding Resolution, was
agreed to.
The following Resolutions were then moved and agreed

to:-
102, 721/. for defraying the charge of the Barrack De-
partment in Ireland, after deducting a sum of 10,8501.,
savings made upon stores of a former year.
93,6121. for the charge of the Military Store Branch
of Great Britain, Ireland, and the Colonies.
2,6001. to defray the Exchequer and Treasury Fees, on
the total amount of the preceding votes.
6,1151. to meet the Estimate of the Pay and Allow-
ances of the Five Companies of the Royal Staff Corps,
transferred to the Ordnance from the Army Estimate.,
for six months, commencing from the 25th of June, 1829.

The House having resumed, the Report was brought up,
and ordered to he received to-morrow.
WAYS AND MEANS.

On the:motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHE-
QUER, the ;louse went into a Committee of Ways and
Means.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved,
that an advance of 12,000,0001. be granted as a portion of
the supply required by his Majesty for the service of the
year.
After a few words from Mr. HUME, the Resolution
was agreed to.
The House having resumed, the Report was brought up,
and ordered to be received to-morrow.
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.
Sir A. GRANT brought up the Report of the Com-
mittee of Supply. The Resolutions were read and agreed
to, and leave given to bring in a Bill pursuant thereunto.
Sir G. CLERK brought up the Report of the London
Bridge Committee. The Resolutions were agreed to, and
leave was given to bring in the Bill.
ARMY MUTINY BILL.

Sir H. HARDINGE brought up the Report of the
Army Mutiny Bill. The Resolutions were read and agreed
to, and leave was given to bring in the Bill. The Bill
was then brought in and read a first time, and ordered to
be read a second time to-morrow ; to be committed pro
forma, and then to have it printed and put into the hands
of Members.