Star.
London, England, 1808-05-03 00:00:00

PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDINGS.

HOUSE OF LORDS, MAY 2.

Counsel was beard in the Roxburgh Appeal Cans., Caine e.
IstNw•
On the motion of Lord ELL.ENBOROUGH, a Bill woe
brought in, read a first time, and ordered to be printed, few the
Relief of Persons detained in Prison, under Executions for
not exceeding £2O, exclusive of cops ; according to which, the
Debtor is to be entitled to his release at the expiration of twelve
calendar months from the period of his first confinement, leaving
a power to the Creditor to proceed against his effects, in the same
manner as if the D••btor had never been arrested. As this was
merely an experimental measure, it was his Lordship's intention
to corfine its operation, for the present, to England and Wales.
His Lordship said, that he had every reason Ns believe it would be
found a measure of much utility, highly beneficial to persons of
the description ...hich it was intended to relieve ; and he hoped it
would meet the wishes of some Noble Lords, who bad already
tak,m the matter under their consideration.

The Birmingham Canal Bill, ar.d three other Bills of a private
nature, were forwarded through their respective stages, and, after
sane further routine business, the House adjuwned.

- .
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Sir SAMUEL Romtr.t s, took his seat for Wareham.
Mr. Alderman SHAW presented s Petition from the Prisoners
confinid lot Debt in the gaol of Ludgate, praying relief by an in-
solvent Aet. 'The worthy Alderman, on presenting this petition,
eapressed his coincidence in the suggestions in favour of referring
petitions of this kind to a Committee.
Mr. ROBARI S presented a Petition front the Corprration
in favour of the Place Reversion

paying a -man a bounty to milt the Volunteers, srlicre
be is useful and has duty to do, to go into the Local
Militia, where he cannot be of use, and has no 'duty
to do, can be a saving to the country The whole of
k was oppressive and unconstitt.-.741141 ; it studied
every thing but the interests of the comi:Ty, and the
comforts of the soldier. It was nothing else than a I
conscription, which woad tend to depreciate, ratfuer
than encourage a military life. The Noble Lot d pro-
poses that it should be officered as the old militia: that
was impossible ; as it is, the old milhia i;annot obtain
qualified officers enough for themselves ; how then
could this subordinate Militia acquire them ? There
was another piece of injustice in it, and that was, that
substitutes would not be allowed—this was a piece of
depotism that nothing in Turkey could surpass. The
Honourable Gentleman then proceeded to draw a
cootrast between the con luct of the late Administra-
tion and the present, and concluded with expre,sing
h:s decided disapprobation of this measure.
Mr. J. SMITH supported the Bill, and observed,
that as far as his communications extended, the p in-
ciple of the Bill met with general concurrence. The
measure had been called a conscription, but it did not
deserve that n: me ; for there was one el;:use of the,
Bill which exempted every one from the ballot under
the Bill who entered any of the Corps of Volunteers.
also - ---,led the me. t ire, and

Mr. HERBERT supported , me.. 4
contended, that it did not impose any severer burdens
on the people than the nature of the times required.
Alluding to our military system with reference to Ire-
land, he would strongly recommend an interchange
of the militia of the two countries, as tending to pro-
duce a complete union of political strength, and as
likely to have a beneficial effect on the minds of the
people of Ireland, with regard to this country.
Sir FRANCIS BURDETT—u I agree with the
Honourable Member who lately addressed the House,
that the present Bill should only come from the Noble
Lord : I know none so capable of devising a measure
of its nature. He, I cannot suppose, is, but certainly
the House must be,ignoranttof the evils and mischief to
which they are about to subject the country, by per.
initting this Act to pass into a law. Let it not be for• i
Bgotten that Great Britain is a land of freedom,and that
ritons have an inherent detestation for bondage
The military of this country have, conformably to the
_ .
thr • first led *- for

spirit of the times in which they were . out I
the public defence, been subjected to a rigoroos_cpde,
termed martial law, injurious to the feelings of ever}
brave man, and disgraceful to humanity. Such an
institution should rather now be abolished, as far as it
affects the military, than be revived against the whole
population of the nation. I feel this a degrading
circumstance attending the Bill, which I cannot
pass without severely reprobating. At the term
torocrqpion I am not alarmed, nor does such a
measure excite my dislike. I can never conceive it
a hardship that a man shall in this crisis be called
forth to defend in arms his country and its liberties.
.—(Hear ! hear ! and Bravo! from the gallery). But;.
Sir, I am eager Ministers should, before they sub-
ject freemen to a military code, render that code
such as freemen could obey or be governed by, and
not one which inflicts those punishments unknown
amongst freemen of antiquity, or only exercised on
their slaves. To patronise or introduce into pubic
the severe and sanguinary code of martin 1 iw and
military punishment, I grant the Noble )I,ord is most
eminently fitted. He has a natural predilection in
their favour, and at an early age he displayeds in the
commencement of his political career, his r.ative bias
amongst his own countrymen. The Irish have, un-
fortunately, been sufferers by his application of this
principle in civil life, and long may it be ere this coun-
try shall permit a similar experiment to be made by
the ingenuity of the Noble Lord. Had I fifty lives,
with pleasure would I sacrifice them all, rather than
permit the country to labour under so distressing a'
grievance.—(Hear, Ater l)—Whet it is considered
that France possesses at this moment nearly one hun-
dred millions of subjects, that she is not only a war-
like, martial nation, but is regulated, governed, and
led on by a ruler 'of the most comprehensive mind,
and successful policy, with armies confident of vic-
tory, and inured to enterprise, it might have easily
been expected that such a state of things would have
inspired far different ideas from those which have been
the result of the Noble Lord's reflection. In such a
state, I say, 'tis just to conclude, that all the physical
force of the country should be united in the common
cause. But it should be thus united by fair and liberal
means, not as slaves who have no tie to unite them to
the' interests of society, but the scourge and the tor-
ture. The present mode is one perfectly fitted for des-
potism, but totally imperfect as a means of collecting
our strength ; and is altogether such as must unavoid-
ably discover to the country, that any man daring to
meddle in the military affairs of the nation and propos-
ing such a measure, is not only an improper, but a
dangerous person to fill the situation held by the
Noble Lord. To profess to raise, by this mode, sixty
thcmsand men, displays so much ignorance and so
much weakness, that it cannot but appear hazardous
in the extreme to permit such a person to continue at
the head of the military department. With the vast
population and extent of maritime territory possessed
by France, 'tis altogether impossible hut she must
speedily have a fleet, which will be able to contend
with us at tea, or at least to protect an invasion on
our shores, and such, therefore, should be our system
of internal defence, that we should not feel the least
alarm had we not a ship on the ocean. The spirit,
the enthusiasm of the country, is that which will be
found the nation's best hope in difficulties, and security
in trial. I regret the sub;ect is one of those which
I cannot speak of with coolness and temper. It is
one which harrows up all the indignant feelings of
man. What! are the people of this country to be
[ coerced and flogged to she execution of their duty to
themselves, their families, and their country ? Shall
freemen alone be compelled to a sense of their duty
by the terror of the lash ? Putting out of the question
all the burden of personal service and ether incon-
P veniencies attending the measure, but which it may
be absolutely necessary for the safety of the coußtrf
that each should undergo, there never was a rlsts.
sure, perhaps, lest fitted for the completioq of its ob-
ject. Similar requisitions had been made in smut of
the nacinns of Europe, over which the French fatally

on the part of the subjects of his present Majesty,
since we may justly infer, that he will never trartsgre„
the constituted authority with which he ►s vested.—
But let me remind the House, and the Noble Lord,
that similar vigorous measures have, in other Lanes
and other countries, proved destructive to the in.
tereqs, and fatal to the existence of Princes less pro•
dent, and IoA the object of the nation's regard. 'rhe
measure professes to raise our force to toe standard
necessary, yet it provides no increase of force.
rather by discouraging the volunteer system and the
Training Act, it decreases the actuß force of the
country, for the probability of a specuLtise advan-
tage by means of a new system, whilst it degrades
the character of the nation, and the spirit of tndivi.
duals. I have but one remark further to make, and
that not directly on the present measure, but cur.•
fleeted with it in the stme way as it is with most of
the measures of Government, which is, the I:►ment,tb;e
circumstance attending all our councils anti delibera.
tions, namely, that every thing bears the distinguisLing
marks of a falling nation. But a short time ago this
House resolved to ado' t a new principle in the milk.
tary system of the country. Sctrcely had this beer:
put into e►ecutior, and before there is any po,sibaity
of its being tried fairly, thin that principle is about
to be supplanted by another, and the field !hr sp.vat.
lation is - opened. Thus there - Aothir

_ again appears .„.ing
but vaccination in council, and irresolution and igno-
rance in those at the head of affairs, who, while they
are employed in talking about practical politics, dis.
cover themselves to be mere journeymen politicians,
without discernment enough to discover what is right,
or resolution enough to persevere even in their own
conceptions of rig►h• and wrong, and profes.,ing prin-
ciples totally contrary to the authority of all those
venerable characters who have written for the instrue.
Lion and imprirvement of humanity."
Colonel WOOD maintained, there was not so le.
nient a Military Code in any other country in Europe.
It was not the authority of the lash that prevailed.
He would tell the Hon. Baronet, English Officers
were averse to that species of discipline. Soldiers •
would rather be tried by their officers than by a Jury
from among themselves—so much for the Military
Code. He agreed v.:th the Honourable Gentleman
opposite (Mr. Herbert), with respect to the inconsis-
•in the Militia Resignations. The English Mi

tency in me _ u.
litia might go to garristin Fort George in the Ncrtii
of Scotland, but they could not be sent to Ireland
this demanded a remedy. He did not consider the
present measure, in so far as it was unpopular, to give
any influence to Ministers.
Mr. WHITBREAD would expttin to the Hon.
Gentleman, how a measure that was extremely unpo-
pular might give great iufluenee to Ministers. No-
thing is more unpopular in this country, than the
great and constant increase of taxes; yet nothing can
be better calculated to give patronage and influence
to Ministers. Ano,her Right Hon. Gentleman had
given great credit to the Noble Lord for the valiant
manner in which he fought in the ranks, in citable
fishing the Union between Great Britain and Ireland.
Here he could net but recollect the saying of a great
conqueror of antiquity, who asserted that he would
take any town, if he could only get an ass loaded
with gold introduced into it. The Noble Lord was
the first to approve the measures of my Right Hop,
Friend, (Mr. Windham), particularly with respevt
to the Volunteers, and now he comes to absorb the Vo-•
luntcers • for that must be the effect of his Local
Militia plan, if it has any. His maxim with respelle
to the Volunteers seemed to be, " Lamdandi, ernandi,
tollemli." He here entered into a general comparison
of Mr. Windham's Training Act, and Lord Castle.
reagh's Local Militia, and contended, that if the
former had been suffered to have its full effect, there
would now have been a suffi..ient force in thecountry
for all purposes of defence. The operation of a ballot
he considered as most injurious to the people—(Hs et
hear! hear 1)-.-but now we shall have a constant suc-
cession of ballots. He was happy to understand tlyta
many of the provisions, which would have been mese
obnoxious, were to be withdrawn. The effect of the
twenty-eight does siaining would be, that the subjects
of it would be corrupted themselves; and that on
their return, they wild corrupt others. Every per-
son must perceive, that the plan of the Ministry is to
convert the Volunteers into Militia, The expense
would be enormous. He would not oppose its going
into the Committee ; but was persuaded, that what-
ever amendments may in the mean time be made,
there will still be subject enough fur discussion re-
maining.
Mr. WILBERFORCE said, that if he must speak
his sentiments without reserve, he did think 'that
neither within that House nor out of it was there an
adequate sense of the danger a the present crisis.—
He did not think the plan of his Noble Friend of suf-
ficient extent ; that, as far as it did go, it sboidd have
his hearty support. He felt the ditfici:lty of his Noble
Friend's situation, and was aware of the difference
of an individual stating an opinion in that House,
and a Minister proposing a digested plan for the de-
fence of the country. At the same time he regretted
that his Noble Friend did not fzel himself warranted
to call upon the people of England to defend them-
selves. All agreed upon the necessity of a large stan-
ding force at the present crisis. Now his principle
was, that as far as could be done there might be con-
stituted a body which could be rendered easily trans-
ferable. He would wish a force of this kind to be.
if be might use the expression, a sort of raw material.
out of which we could any tune manufacture a
regular force.
Mr. WINDHAM could not divine what reason the
Honourable Gentleman who spoke last could have
for supposing, that those who were most hostile to
the measure of the Noble Lord were not as fulls
sensible as himself of the existing, dangers of the
country. The point of difference is not as to the
sense of the amount of that danger, but the mode of
meeting it. With respect to the Gentleraen opposite,
the sense of danger seems so wholly to engross their
minds as to deprive them of all wer-of adopting
adequate means for averting it.-.. Hear I hear! hear!)
—That the crisis demands • g extraordinary,
is a sort of motto to their measures. Theirreseat be
considered as expensive and inefficient.-7 N
Noble
Lord and his Colleagues thotight they did business.
when '• only makiog,'a disturbance. They