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PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDINGS. N.,

HOUSE OF LORDS, MARCH 17.
Lord SUFFOLK wished to be informed, whether the Roble
Lords in Administration felt any objection to the production of
Mr. Garlicke's correspondence. He understood it had peen

• bdore the other Houle.
. Lord HAWKESBURY said, that before be could answer the
question decisively, it would be necessary to state some Parlia-
mentary ground for that proceeding. The Papers, he believed,
had been submitted to the other House, in consequence of parti-
cular circumstances which had there occurred.
Lord DERBY presented a petition from certain Merchants in
Liverpool against the Orders in Owned Bill, which he requested
the Clerk to read.
Lord Hawkesbury and the Duke of Montrose wished the Noble
Lord to state the prayer of the petition, previous to its being read
by the Clerk ; but after some observations from Lord Grenville
and the Lord Chancellor, the course pursuedby Lord Derby was
admitted to be strictly in order.
Lord DERBY, upon the Petition being read, dwelt at some
length on the motives of the petitioners. They consisted of more
than 400 of the most respectable inhabitants of Liverpool, who
differing from each other on political subjects, bad united in this
application, from their apprehension of the injurious consequences
to the trade of the country at large, and to Liverpool is particu-
lar, as likely to result from the Orders In Council. He concluded
by moving, that the Petitioners should be heard by their Counsel
on the s.:cond reading, in furtherance of those Orders in Council.
The Duke of MONTROSE argued that the motion was inad-
missible; as, according to the Standing. ors, Counsel could not
be heard against a Bill of Supply.
Lord ERSKINE demanded that the Standing Order, contain-
ing such proKbition, should be specified. He conceived there
was no such order. He regretted the decision come to the pre-
ceding evening, in violation of a plain and positive order. But he
wished that the House would not play fast and loose with its own
rules. His Lordship strongly insisted that the Petitioners had a
right to be heard against the measure of the Orders in Council ;
and if there was now any difficulty in point of form, it wholly arose
om the House having entertained that subject in connection with
a vote of Aid and Supply.
The LORI) CHANCELLOR said, that there was no order
to prohibit hearing Counsel against a Bill of Supply ; but the ge-
neral practice of the House had been not to hear them. He de-
precated the sort of language which was used, with regard to the
division of the preceding evening, and warmly contended that it
was strictly conformable to the true meaning of the order of 1702.
Lord GRENVILLE regarded the vote of last night as the sole
tause of the difficulty whith now occurred. Henceforward be could
only state what were their Lordships orders--what they are he
would never undertake to predicate. Last night the Orders in
Council Bill was not a bill of Supply, for the purpose of preventing
any extraneous matter from being tacked to it ; now it was a Bill
of Supply, for the purpose of preventing the people from being
heard against it.
Lord HAWKESBURY thought the prayer of the petition con-
trary to the usual practice of the House. He contended that the
Bill had been uniformly represented as a Bill of Supply, and that
there was not a clause in it irrelevant to that object.
Lord AUCKLAND said the Bill gave his Majesty an unlimited
power of remitting the duties. It was therefore clear that all that
there was of Supply in the Bill might be done away ; and there
would remain in full force a meet important system of commercial
regulations. This was a decisive proof that the Standing Order
had been violated. He conjured their Lordships not to shut their
doors to the Petitioners' and adverted, in pathetic terms, to the
listresses which were daily accumulating upon the manufacturers
quarters of the country. He deplored the consequences of
Orders in Council, as tending to shake that firmness and
energy which the people had hitherto displayed under the most
;t ical circumstances.
Lords e el:: rave and Westmoreland were against, and Lords
olland and Lauderdale for, hearing Counsel.
The Motion was then put and negatived without a division—
al after a long conversation on a point of order, the petition was
jetted.
Lord DERBY presented a Petition from the same persons
lose names were affixed to the former, complaining of the Or-
-s in Council, and praying to be heard against them by Coun-
or to hava their allegations examined into in such other mam-
as their Lordships should seem meet. His Lordship moved,
the Petition should lie on the table, and that the Petitioners
should be heard by their Counsel.
Lord HAWKESBURY doubted whether the petitioners in
is case could be heard by Counsel, there being no proceeding
fore the House to which the petition immediately applied.
Lord ERSKINE insisted, that the Orders in Council were
efore the House, by the reference to them in his Majesty's
ipcech. 4
These. opposite opinions gave rise to a long discussion : in the
‘mrse of which Lord HAWKESBURY moved, that the words
relative to hearing Counsel should be left out of the motion. This
-nendnient, after considerable opposition, was carried without a
'vision.
Lord ERSKINE, in order to institute a proceeding upon which
le petitioners might be regularly heard, then moved that the
Clouse should on Wednesday go into a Committee to consider of
the Orders in CounciL—This motion, after %short conversation.
vas negatived. Adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
The Bill for funding Exchequer Bilis to a certain amount, was
irought up and read a first time.
Mr. JAMES BULLER presented Pap m.s which had been or
lered on a previous evening, connected with the Droits of the
Idmiralty.
On the motion of Mr. STURGES BOURNE, the considera-
tion of the Report of the Pilots' Bill was deferred to Thursday
the 24th in,.
The order of the day for calling over the House was postpo-
ned till Tuesday next.
ORDERS IN COUNCIL. . _

SirCHARLES PRICE presented a petition in favour of the Or-
ders in Council of November last, from certain Merchants in the
City London trading to the Continent of Europe, which was
brought up and read. It was ordered to lie on the table after a
desultory conversation between Mesans. Whitbread, Tierney,
Ponsonby, H. Combe, Mellish, A. Baring, Lord Temple, and
Mr. Perccval.

BRIDGEWATER ELECTION.
The following are the Names of the Committee appointed to
try the merits of the Petition against the Election for the Borough
of Bridgewater. •
E. W. Bootle, Esq.
G. Duckett, Esq.
Lord Viscount Hinchinbrools
E. Harboard, Esq.
The Hon. E. R Stewart
W. Wynne, Esq.

Lord Lotrraine
Sir J. S. Sebright, Bart.
1 J. S. Gooch, Esq.
G. B. Greenough, Esq.
J. Farquhar, Esq.
Sir 3. G. Cotterell, Bart.
'NOMINEE!. .
D. Giddy, Esq. and W. Mellish, Esq.
COLD-BATH-FIELDS PRISON.
Mr. SUMNER, in pursuance of his notice, begged
leave to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman, whom he
now saw in his place, (Mr. Sheridan), and who had
brought forward the Petition concerning the Prison
at Cold-Bath-Fields, whether it was his intention to
propose any further steps on the subject ?
Mr. SHE RIDAN answered, that it was his wish
to allow his Majesty's Ministers a reasonable time to
institute the inquiry, in order to redress the grievan-
ces complained of. He understoOd such was their
intention ; but it it were not carried into effect before
next week, he should then feel it his duty to bring for-
ward a motion.
Mi. SUMNER said, the Petition before the House
tended to cast a strong odium upon the Magistrates
of Middlesex, by accusing them of gross inattention
to abuses in a public Prison, which, if existing, it
was their duty to redress • but if this charge was net
founded, it was incumbent upon the House to vindi7
;Cate -those Magistrates. The Petitioners, he said,
.Ought, in the 'first place, to have presented hose grie.7
-.ranee. as Grand Jurors at the Session, or to have ap.
\
/AO .to the Grand Jury who succeedecrthem, to
do so. - -lad they failed, then they should have made
ii‘' representation to the respectable Committee of
onatThiagistrates i and if then unsuccessful, vire

applied to his Majesty's Secretary
final resort should have been to petit
But such a proceeding-would not
purpose of those Petitioners, and'
to appeal first to that House, as
citing. something like the clamour
former occasion, and obtaining for t
larity with the multitude. This. Pet
come with more propriety through the medium of a
respectable Member for Middlesex, and one of that
very Magistracy who were so traduced (Mr. Mellish),
but he heard from that Honourable Member, that he
had rather chosen to decline it. He was aware that
his Majesty's Ministers had taken up the subject, and
had made some progress in the nomination of a Com-
mittee of Investigation, which had been delayed by
accidental causes ; but being apprehensive that sueh
a Committee would not obtain with the multitude out
of doors, the same credit for impartiality and effici-
ency, as a Committee otherwise appointed, he should
move instead, for a Select Committee up stairs. Un-
derstanding that another Grand Jury who sat in Fe-
bruary last, and examined the Prison, had found few
or none of the grievances complained of, of which they
had made a report, and that the Committee of Magi-
strates had examined the Prison since that, and made
their report, he thought it right to move, that these
two reports be laid before the House, that they Might'
be referred, together with the Petition, to , a Com-
mittee up stairs ; and he accordingly moved- for the '
appointment of such a Committee, and the produc-
tion of such reports.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
had no objection to the produCtion of those docu-
ments, but could not see the propriety of the other
motion, for the appointment of a Committee up stairs.
In fact, the Secretary of State for the Home Depart-
ment had lost no time in proceeding to the appoint-
ment of a Commission under the Great Seal, similar
to that formerly appointed for the like purpose. In
this Commission, he had nominated all the survivors
of the former one, and the other Members would be
found highly respectable. The sole impediment had
been occasioned by the County Assizes. He regret-
ted that his Right Honourable Friend, however, in-
advertently, had tended to sanction those clamours
land misrepresentations which he himself reprobated,
by the suggestion that such a Commission would nbt
obtain credit with the public. The Commission would
make their report, and the House would then judge.
Sir FRANCIS BURDETT confessed, that he
stood in the predicament of differing in sentiment
with all those who had spoken upon the subject. In
the first place, he protested against the doctrine of
leaving the grievances of the people to be redressed
by what one Honourable Gentleman had pompouily
denominated his Majesty's Government, or, in other
words, by the Administration of the day. The Ho-
nourable Gentleman who had brought forward the
present motion, seemed to entertain the most perverse
notions of the nature of the petition which it was.Ros-
sit* to enter into the head of man. A petitiedi`Pre-
seated to that House praying for a redress of griev-
ances on the part of the people, he had construed into
a charge against the Magistrates of the County, and
the only reason he adduced for inquiring into the
matter of the petition was the vindication of the cha-
racters of these Magistrates. He contended, on the
contrary, that the petition had,nothing to du with the
characters of the Magistrates of she County, and that
if any of the Magistrates were implicated, it was the
Committee, at the head of which was Mr. Mainwarings
and whose duty it was to superintend the due execu-1
:on of the regulations for the management of the pri-
son. He was convinced that if the House of Com-
mons did not appoint a Committee of their own'for
the purpose of investigating the complaints of the'pe-
tition, neither the Petitioners nor the Country would
be satisfied. The Honourable Gentleman had
thought fit to attribute improper motives to the Peti-
tioners, because they had not addressed themselves to
the Secretary of State before applying to that House.
But be thought that the business had.been quite long
enough in the hands of Government. It was first
brought forward in 1799, 'since which nothing had
been done to redress those grievances complained of,
and he did not wonder that those who were subjected
to them despaired of obtaining. any relief frdm that
quarter. Neither was he astonished at the objections
which had been started to the appointment of a Com-
mittee of the House of Commons by the Chancellor
of the Exchequer, aware, as he must be, of what
would be the result of a public investigation. Re-
stricted, as were the powers of the former CoMmis-
sion, because it had no authority to make retrospec-
tive inquiry, and, notwithstanding the long warning
and time which had been given to the gaoler to pre-
pare for their inquiry, it appeared from the Report
then made, that he had set at nought the regulations
of the Magistrates, and the authority of the laws,—
And by the late Report of the Members of the Grand
Jury, it appeared that the prison weights were shortof
the legal standard—that innocent men were confined ,
in irons—that the Gaoler was in the habit of whippinki
and beating the prisoners by his own authorityH
that he was in the habit of borrowing money, and -ac.-
cepting blibes from the prisoners, or, as the Report •
expressed it—that the prisoners had found out the
secret of suiting their proposals to the wants of the
Governoi. The Honourable Baronet said also, that
he should be able to prove something respecting this
Governor's daughters, which, till proof is brought in
support of the allegation, we shall forbear to state.--
He concluded with expressing a hope, that the House
would interfere in a business which was at all times
important, but which was particularly so. at tie pry
sent time.
Sir C. PRICE-endeavoured to shew that se fer
from there being any deficiency, there was actually an '
increased weight of bread i and that therefote tit
had been stated in Mr. Sheriff Phillips's letter *mom
well founded.
Mr. SHERIDAN thought the proceeding of the
Honourable Gentleman who brought forward 'the
present motion the most extraordinary he had ever
Witnessed. 'Thee-Honourable Gentleman, on rising,
asked hilts whether he meant to bring- forward any
motion upon the subject of the petition which he had
presented some time h.go ? He had replied, that it was
his intention to make 4 proposition on the subject in•
the course of next week, but instead, on that accBimt,
of waving his motion on this evening, as' he expec-
ted, he had now made precisely -that -motion, which
he (Mr. Sheridan), intruded then to submit to the
House. Mr. Sheridan avowed, that he was by no
means fond of an inquiry into public grievances be-

Commission acting under the
manual. He had no ob-
those who had acted under
t they had not sufficient
se, the result of that in-
attention was not paid to
Commission as was usually paid
unentary Committee, for cer-
iiposiaietace even ofthat Report there were suffi-
cient grounds for the removal of Governor Aris from
this office. He was by no means sure, therefore, that
the Petitioners would be satisfied with the appoint-
ment of another Commission under the King's sign
manual, from which so little advantage had accrued
in a former instance. He should, however, make ,it
his business to inquire, whether they would be satis-
fied with such a proceeding, or not ; and if they wefe
not; he should still follow up his original intention
of submitting a motion to the House in the course of
nett week. He had no objection, in the mean time,
that the paper moved for by the Honourable Gentle-
man should be produced--but he mentioned a cir-
cumstance to shew how little weight any representa-
tion from the Magistrates ought to have in circum-
stances like the present. A poor girl had brought a
charge against a lawyer for a rape : this person con-
trived, by giving money, or by some other means of
influence with the Governor, to get his accuser im-
mured in a cold damp cell, in which she was so scan-
tily fed on bread and water, that when she came for-
ward to give her evidence in Court she could neither
speak nor stand. And the Magistrates, after inquir-
ing. into the circumstances, had drawn up a represen-
tation, to which sixteen signed their names, that the
father of the girl was a poor button maker, and that
it was impossible that she could have been worse fed
in prison, than she would have been at home.
Mr. MELLISH etpressed his astonishment that
the Report moved for was said to corroborate the al-
legations of the Petition. It, on the contrary, con-
tradicted them both as to the getting the woman with
child in the prison, and as to the weight of the bread.
He preferred a Committee of the House to a Com-
mission by Government, because, he frankly -owned.,
that it would be more satisfactory to the public. Af-
ter a Report from such a Committee, he hoped the
Honourable Baronet,and the other Gentlemen on that
side, would be satisfied, and that they would heal no
more of these complaints.
Mr. SUMNER understood the Right Honour-
able Gentleman (Mr. Sheridan) to have said, that he
would be satisfied if Government took up the matter.
But he (Mr. Suniner) was not satisfied. He thought
there ought to be a Committee of this House to satisfy
the public, and have this matter distinctly investigated.
Mr. SHERIDAN said, that the Honourable Gen-
tleman had mistaken what he had said. He had al-.
ways been of opinion, that a Committee of the House
was the preferable mode of proceeding. He adverted
to the situation of the deranged foreigner, who {tad,
been committed on mere suspicion, and contended
that the subsequent Report did generally corroborate',
the allegations.
The motionfor the Report was then put and carried.
Mr. SUMNER next moved for Copies of any Pre-
sentments on this subject by Grand Juries.
Mr. MELLISH stated, that the allegation as to
woman being got with child in the gaol was incorrect,
as she was delivered eighteen months after she left it.
The foreigner alluded to had been taken up as a spy,
and there was considerable doubt whether he had not
feigned madness with a view to his liberation.
Mr. CHARLES WYNNE could say nothing as to
the: treatment of that foreigner, but his commitment
was perfectly just and proper ; and it was necess try
he should not leave this country, as he had inform a-.
tion that would affect the lives of others.'
Sir FRANCIS BURDETT—" Sir, I do not mean
at present to question the propriety of the confine-
ment of this foreigner, the only question being, whe-
ther this statement in the Petition can be proved ?
It is quite impossible that I can forget that Mr. Aris
himself confessed that he had borrowed money from
his prisoners—that he whipped them, and took bribes
frog- them. Theseare actions that are directly against
the law and the regulations of the Prison. I should
hope that there would be no Committee who would
decline taking a retrospective view of these things.—
I should rather wish the Honourable Gentleman to
leave the matter in the hands of those from whom he
took it, in order that some justice might be done to
those unfortunate beings who suffer under the oppres-
sion of that gaol. When I hear Gentlemen say that
they visited this Prison, I would like to .know how
many cells they inspected? There are upwards of
300 cells in this gaol, which would require some per-
son zealous in the cause of humanity to visit, It
would be necessary to visit them in the morning, to
see how money is extorted from them, or their bread
withheld. Their scanty allowance is a pound loaf
a.day, which, if the gaoler chooses, he may with-
hold from any unfortunate person under confinement,
and starve him for twenty-four hours, or longer, as he
pleases, so as to affect his health, and bring him to
the grave ; and yet this is thought too trivial to be
stated. It is, Sir, the sort of imprisonment here
adopted that I complain of as being contrary to
the Constitution: This .prison was, at the time ,of
its erection, a perfect novelty in the country, and in-
troduced entirely as an experiment, which has cone=
pletely failed, and therefore the old law of the Coun-
try ought again to be tried. The gaoler has too
much power to inflict punishments, and complaints
are daily made as to these horrible transactions. There
is something peculiarly mysterious as to the pro-
tection afforded to this particular gaoler. He is a
Man of notorious bad character. He seems to be in-
troduced upon the same grounds as a certain Poet in-
troduced a Lawyer, who had upon occasion been led
to the performance of a' good action, and begged it
might be concealed, lest h:s good character should
rum his business. I am not afraid, however, of
this man going even, this length, as I suspect he is
incapable of performing one good action.--This man
having embezzled the parish money, he was recom-
mended to the situation of gaoler, in the hopes that
the parishioners might be reimbursed their money.
This is the sort of man under whose controul there
were generally 200 or 300 prisoners. With this be-
fore our eyes, is it possible that we can be satisfied ?,
It is not, however; upon that account alone that corn-
, plaints are to be made to this House. It not merely
,ought to expel this Governor Aris with all his crimes;
but I should wish to put an end to that new and
scandalous system of imprisonment, introduced by
adopting the system of a man, meaning well, and

tending to benefit his species--I mean the late
Howard.. His system, however well he might be
disposed, was not that which ought to have been is
the view of the Legislature of that day, and ought
not to actuate this Mouse at the present period.
His view of the subject was of this kind :--He
served, in those receptacles of misery which he visited
at home and abroad, that there was a constant besi,
of intoxication, and an improper connection of Theft
and female prisoners, by their being kept teixed te.
gether. His object, therefore, was, to separate the
prisoners, which he conceived could only be effected
by cutting then off from those temptations and
profligate courses, and consequently retommeseed
solitary confinement. He however also-recommended
every kind of alleviation that could diminish the
rity 'cif that severest of punishments that man en
endure. He hoped that by this course the 111061 hag,
med. enlprits'might be brought back to habits of n.
elitsti7 : but we cannot find- in his book 'all the ether
seventies' that can 'be invented, joined with that of
'solitary. confinement. In regard to this gaol, wean
that that part which ought to be devoted to the me,-
cise of the prisoners, is appropriated by the gaoler far
feeding his hogs and his chickens. If any person will
be pleased to go and visit this prison, they may he
convinced of these and such like abuses. The person
of a prisoner, it must be recollected, is under the eye of
the law as much as that of any ether man in the ha'
dom. , What can we say of the fellow who can bell
men in chains ! Yet this is the conduct of this Gene.
nor Aris, as they choose to call him. When I visited
this abode of wretchedness, there happened to be a
turnkey, who had more humanity than this Governer
Arts, his. son; or his soniit-law—for there is a whet!
family, of gaolers, who, as it were, rnonopolize the
whole ensortions of this gaol. This turnkey confessed,
that the prisoners, were not allowed to see their wives,
' their children, or friends, except:in the preseact of
this head gaoler, their tormentor; nor hadtley*
opportunity to get pen and ink to write their grin
vances. The whole place, Sir, is a place of decep.
tion. It is to the visitor airy and sweet, and a man
may think it better to be there than to be in Newries
This is apparently the case to a person unacquainted
with the wiles and deceptions that are practised,.
There is a very fine chapel, and several Very good
rooms ; but as ,to the filthy and miserable cells, •
man can possibly conceive what they are, unless ,
use means to succeed in getting into them. I had
visited the prison -tem or three times, and there
'were some of them that I never knew of, till by
mere chance I got secret intelligence of them.
re-visited it, and I remember of a person of f
name of Jones, who was confined in a dark cell.-..
It takes more than a whole day to see the prisoners.
I asked to lee this Man, and I was at last take:
him. He was a miserable object, apparently in tie
utmost despair. His head was bound round. He
said that Arii had beaten him unmercifully a consi-
derable time before, and that he had spit blood ever
afterwards. Aris did not deny it, but merely said,
that he would beat every man in a similar manner,
who behaved so insolently-as he had done. I wish the
House thereforeto consider whatare the circumstances
attending this new system of imprisonment, and it
cannot fail to have its due effect upon the minds of
the public."
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
said, that Government was not connected with the 9'
pointment of Governor to that -
Honourable Baronet had stated
of the present inquiry or complaint.
disposition on the part of Government
inquiry • and it was not necessary '
into a dourt of Inquiry, upon such,
Government might have as well
plaints as the present or antecedent
fore there could be no particular,
againt the present Government,
evidently slept upon their posts.
Sir FRANCIS BURDETT
formerly stated these grievances
the antecedent Administration
the circumstances extremely stroll)
quirt', wishing that Government •
to remedy the evil. By this means,
hands ; but so far from these grievances
'sed, it had not been put into the
missiorers so appointed to inquire
they actually stool in the same sir
were.
Lord FOLKESTONE trusted
,feel the necessity for the appointment
and that the Honourable Baronet near .
Francis Burdett), who had interested himself so ee.
in the affairs of this prison, would be appeinta
member of it.
naMmesr. NoVfltlheoßseE
whoßFOvißeCreEaspapoid
for the regulation of this prison, and the removal n
._
abuses that might exist in it, he was then:ooNY,,
convinced there could be no Committee appoint
that would be more ably qualified to remedy tbe7ll
in v4t.e.hden ashCe o lwmmked i att
,ssicf

uid

1114
E V

had b,
doors
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jr of State ;and their ing cogliucted by a Commis
petition that House. author* of the King's sign w
a answer the obvious *donate the characters of tho
they preferred father the former Commission, but tl
a better mode of powers, and what was worse,
lir fomented upon a qatry spewed that the same at
for themselves pops- the Report of such a Commiss
; Petition would have te the Report of a Parliament
_ ..1...r„........ nfthat

gr. E
of ll‘
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- arid
guilt ti
it AC Bit
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$2).1
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be -
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the
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rives, ',a
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7 al
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tutted
Is, no -- •
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—.;

)XMCCLCU LAM ar7
Prison, What the WI
was not the subject wul"A,..
tt. There was every
anent to make every "kw
y to erect the House
h.occasion. The late
redressed these cont. r: I
dent one, and there. I°"°.
ground of complaint
, the last one having
added, that he had ye
s and complaints to
; and they, thinking
ong, instituted an in.
t should be permitted
!ans, it went out of his AV
ievances being
be power of the , 1
ire into them, so
situation they fouler 1111
be
fisted the House vr 1
:meat of a Committee, Nei
ronet near him (Sir 1184
himself se slik