The Sun.
London, England, 1820-06-10 00:00:00

NAVY EsTINIATES.

The House it;iving resufed'itielt intrt a Com-
n;ittee of -Supply, the rivy I?..,tintAtes were, On
:be motion ut C.WAtutetzputt, lefetreci to the

same.

It WRS moved, that „a sum not exceedin'g
1,980,5661. be grau;td tor the' Naval Service tut
the pre,enr year,

61r M. \l7. RIDLEY had
.no objection to the
raw 5 he admitted Ihat a r,..dtp;ti,m.to the aimootit
of 140 0001. had ,aketi place within the hist ye,r.
'Ube Honourable Baritilet adverted to the coot in-
oauce of the two L.-1 Lords of the Admirak.y ;
out, tru4n the ay..iletion and noise that prevai:ttl
tater the ltdioutiithtot tit the dilcos•ion tnt ,he
King's Meisage, it Was impossi!ilt to hear a syn.
tence in the Gallery.

Sir G. COCKBURN, in comecrenee of the con.
tinned noise in the Elt)he, o,a• generally ihrindi-
hie in the GBllery. We unders,,,od the iitittoar-
aLle 13aronet to maintain, that the utmost pr,cti-

ruble economy was estalrlished in -the Naval
Depar,ment„end that in consequence there was
• a redaction of .100 0001. in the estimates of this
year, compared with that of the last.
Sir Joserol Yo-exe said, he was sorry to observe
bow %scary the House-seemed in' be of that stale
and impolitic sobject of discussion, the' expendi-
tUre of the 1).11hlie money. People were el{owed
to'cliatter as much, and as long. as they pleated on
matters of this nature, without meeting with much
attrution from those for whose edification they
were slam alsiog. From what. the Hon. Baronet
rho spokt• list said, at least as he understood
through that haze of noise which existed In tiel.
}loose, it .oppt„sed Unit the Iwo Junior Lords of
'the Adinfrally only cost the nation three thousand
pounds ; but even this he thought was worth
saving, it it was not required for indispensable ser-
,With regard vo the Superannuation -end
Pension List, in his tipittioir, was tar from
'being saftsfaetory. Ilis 11.1:mirable :Friend near,
_hint (the Secretary to, the Admiralty) in one of
his conscht«Ky speeches, loot 'told them !Wit
100.0001. 'Night be saved to the nation by what
was styled, in modern language, ceasing to exist..
---(Laughter )—Rut the only worm which never
was the peblie expense. The Right Hon.
(ihe Chancellor t,f the Exchequer) al-
ways smiled at his obscivaliotis ; but 'he could
uustite him that unie.s he connived some hots to.
lay tip treasures for them in Heaven, 'they had no
chance of enjoyment, as there' appeared to be
none for them on earth: They were completely
eat up with Soperaitohistirm and Pension Lists.
Bit the system ptostied respectiag them we were,
doubling and Teadropling_evely office in the si ate.
Teere %vete at present two or three Lord Chao.
celiori to be st en walk iog about. 1.! etc ‘s yes.
three or four Extra Corninissioners of if:e
ling Board els°, and many other' instances of
a similar kind. AhhOugh he was a
.great ad-
Tocate for economy, 'be could nut approve of
the feeling which had dictated the laying down:
of the Dock-yard at Halifax. it produced
but a trifling sav'ng,- and, in his opinion, was
for a very ill-advised purpose. Tee yard was
situated in the inidst of our greatest ilierey
—at least those who were capable of causing
us the most (footsie. They were civil enough
at present, it was true. He did not know
bow far that slate of things might be, owing to-
the circum•tanceot there being no money in either
of the Es,cheotters of the two countries.—
(ilugliter.)—Wititi regard to the atnoent co( the
saving, it was nothing w.hen compared to the ex-
issuers which a certain great building in this coons
try; (the Admiralty) required for keeping in repair
alone; that cost three or lour times as morel).—
Under ,he head of (i,lealzir it wooll be ,found
there was a sum of 4.600!. charged for the build-
ieg of a wharf in the water four the protection of
gun batteries'. This item would belound regu-
larly at its post in the N ivy Estimates since the
'year 1802 up to the preset;' time ; but strange to
say, the said wharf had never made its appear-
ance above water. Wi%h all due deference, he
-must be alio-wed to say that he could not look
upon it as any better than an absolute job—the
money had plainly gone into the pockets of 'some
one. Now, that he had made an opposition
-spee'cli, tie would by way of amendment say some-
thing on ,be other side of the question.—
eLatigh,cr.)—With regard to Sheerness -Yet& he
would tell the Honourable Baronet (Sir M. W.
Ilidley) that the stun chargel in theseEsfiluales
was totally distinct from (bar voted formerly for
the constinctiog of Basins, &c. ; and he had DO
doubt, as the effair was now in the good bawls of
an 1-lon. Friend of his, it would be conducted in
a very exemplary manner. Whilst he was On this
snbj. C. be wished to make another 'mark. He
was, the other day. at Sheerness, when a thunder-
ing order came down to discharge forthwith all
' the navieators.emoloyed in the Dock-yards. The
,blouse should he told, that a navigator signified a
fellow who went about with a wheelbarrow and
shovel iu his hand. --(Laugh, er.)—ln place of
those navigators, 200 in number,: were substi-
tuted an equal number of convicts taken froni the
hulks in the River. It sounded, no. doubt, very
%sell that we made this good and salutary use of
Theo whose lives were torfAnd to the countly ;
but let them look at the danger of it. By potting
on the convicts, they drove '2OO honest men out
of employment, who not knowing which way to
turn themselves, or what to do for their maintes
trance, were nathrally desirous to becothe convicts
also ; and asked whether it were not possible for
• the Secretary of State to make them that privi-
leged class of beings. He (Sir J Yorke). might
as well ask to be' matie into a maid of honour:
Sir M. W. Ribezir said a few woo ds, ex-
planation. -
Sir B. MARTIN defended the employment Of the
convicts. It was found that ti Jess 'they were
employed, they always wereguilty, of the 'greatekt
excesses.' They got whet( they worked three-pence'
a-day, half of which pittahce.was reserved,to-•
wards defraying the expellees of their return
. after the term of 'their tran,portation expired,,--
They appeared frOrtithe time they had been .put
_ into employment, bath correct and exemplary its
. their behaviour.
Mr. Home compared the Estimates of the pre-
sent year whit those of for Mer periods. In 1818
the total amount .of the. Navy Eviinatcs was
2,480,0001.; in 1819, 2,483,000.1 and in )B'2o
it was again 2,480 0001. Hr did not, therefore,
see where'tvas the diminution boasted of by the
Hon. Baronet. As be did not find thdre was any
reduction on the gross tonotint, neither could he
discern whether there was-any on the minor

charges. When he looked at the Naq Pay Office
lie was surprised to find that there was as trifling a
`difference of expence in the Estahlishment„ at a
time when there was only six millions to pay, as
when we had 22 millions to pay. lie thought a
little more attention ought to have been paid to
tine Report of the N,ival Committee than had
been on this and every other branch of Naval ex-
penditure. In the sixth year of peace the House"
lad a tight to expect a much larger reduction.—
Ile asked whether the House would continue the
E.ttablishment on the sane footing as when there
were 145,000 men employed, now that there were
olds' 23,000, ii.cluding Marines ; The Report of
_the Committee he had alluded to, said, the whole
scotid 'lied only 169 ships of war ; we had 594 sail
(st slips of war. He eutreated the House to con-

shier whether the great expense wan not rilpro.
portioned 'to the circumsta,,ces 'of the country,
and `Jgain enforced the necessity of economy:
then aditetted to the cost of alteratinns in the
Yards, which amounted to 1,500.0001. ; but ex-
, pressed
_himself not certain that there•were not
sufficient reasons-to be adduced in support of it,
The economy he recommended was in the large
establishments anti high salaries, not in the stibal-
. tern departments.
Sir li. MARTIN, in answer to some of the re-.
marks that 110 been offered, said, that 17-6 ships
had been brfiken up, and 324 sold,-in all 500 ;so
tNat In tact, lire reduction since the peace ha4i
been, it any thing, too Ithsty.. %With regard !o the
.ships repaired, it was to enable them to complete
their few remaining years of service, and a mea-
sure of absolute necessity for the protection of
our colonies and commerce., lie . defended the
other items of the estimates on a comparison
,with the years 1791, 2; 3, or which was fairer,
with the five years preceOing ; economy had been
s; udied in every practicable way, and carried to
the utmiust extent in every department. In the
Navy Office 68 Clerks had been reduced, and a
corresponding number in the Navy Pay Office.
All the rest of the expenditure was according to.
the Report of tile Comniiooners of Navel Inquiry,
who had sit for many :years, and pointed out
every possible.t:etrenchrricnt.. By the alteration in
the Transport Board, 13,0001. a year was saved
to the country•
Mr. Hume complained of the Transports being
idly employed, more for the•couvenieney of ()di-
cers abroad than for the general service.
Sir P. OMMANNY &feuded the existing system.
So' fir front the Navy being ,00 extensive, it was
by no mesns what it ought to be. The ships
in ordinary • had not even
,men enough to man
a boat to put an Officer on sitiore in a reiliectable
manner. . •.

Sir 1. CoFFIN dechred that Ire did not think 'he
Naval atiaiis of the contr could be_becler con-

ducted !hail bey were. 'tile utwost economy was
notorions is eves y branch.
Mr. Tus..itNtslri alluding to, a Gallant Officer
(Sii J Yoi4e) hoped he w-tild go toe WOole

. ,
way in his new opposition tine,. and ,i4ve them
his votes as well as his speeches.—(A laugh)--
He rose now, however, to •inte a very tii.dress ng
case to. the house. respecting which a pets inn
had about a mouth ago been put into fits hand.
It was tram wo,Ladies who were so reduced in
their affairs as literally to have no prospect he-,
fore .them but the workhouse. Yet they were,
and in no very remote degree, of so respeciable
a.rank in lite as to be descended from tto High
Sher Ai of Cornwall, Their father had expended
his means in placing big family of nine cotidi
in the w.otid. Six of his sons tvere in the navy,
one in the artillety; and all had died in the ser•
vice of their country. Of those in ti;e! na%y. iwo
:were itilled in action, and,' ti o deed of the yellow
'fever ; their father fell a victim to a:broken heart ;
and soon after the last brother, in the 'army, died.
at Gibraltar of a disorOer caught in the pertotm-•
ante of his duty, leaving these unfortunate sisters
utterly destitute. In this forlorn situation they
had addressed a letter to. the Doke- of York, who
replied to them with all the feeling and conside-
ration belonging to his character, and (Lee to
atheir inisfortont-s ; but as only one brother had
- .
been in the army, and six In the navy, be recoil).

mended them to prefer r hen claim to the Admi-
, rally, as better founded. He (Mr. T.) imputed
blame to no one in what he was stating • it was
smrhply to point cut what he thought ,a dis-
credit to the± British service,. that be told
this affecting 'tale. The sisters applied to Lord
Melville, who was also con-welled to deny them
relief, because there was no fund in the navy ap-
plicable to persons in their relationship to officers
who had perished. The Noble Lord at the same
time regretted this extremely, ns the Admiralty
felt for their case, and wished it could admit) s-
ter to their wants. Thus, from 1816, they were
left in utter • destitution till their pets ion
was accidentally put into his bawls. Hav-
ing ascertained its accuracy, be :bad
on Lord Melville and on the Right Honourable
.Gentlernau opposite (the. Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer), and it was but Justice to 34y, that from
the NOble Lord and from the liight,lionourable:
Gentleman lie bad received the most kind and
feelioveception. , As there was no' other fund.
on
,which the Petitioners could be pensioned, the.
I.Zight Honourable Gent letup had recommended
Ahem to the bounty of the Crown, and they were
placed on the civil List--(Hear, bear !)—This
had rendered it unnecessary for hits to present..•
their Petition, but he mein lolled the circumstances
to show that there were instances in which the
relatives of those who fell in the favourite ser- ,
_vice of the country were not provided for as they,
ought: He was aware that there were difficulties
in the way of providing for the sisters of Officers,
but he thought the most economical Member of
the House wotdd sanction the placing at the dis-
posal of the. Admiralty a fund to be applied to
the relief of persons in this situation. It was, true
as a general principle the provision for sisters
might he too' extensive, but a fund strictly watch-
ed for those whose reliance on their brothers was
of the same kind as that of daughters on their
fathers ought to be established. He hoped this
matter, which was indeed a disgrace to the ser-
vice, would be taken into consideration.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER expressed
great commiseration for such cases when they 4.3 c
curred ; but observed that the recommendation of
the Right Hon. Gentleman was contrary to w!.at
had been decided by the Committee of 'Finance,
which, after a patient inquiry, had advised that
the pensions should he limited to wives and di-
rect descendants of Officers. Whetiever particu-
lar cases of diStress arose, be could assure the
House that the bounty of the Crown would be li-
berally and bountifully extended to them. lively
disposition to afford relief was felt, !bough it
might not perhaps be thought advisable to open
ihe dcor to claims so widely as was pointed at
by the Right Hon. Gentleman. The matter
should, ho,, ever, be taken into consideration be-
fore next Ses,ioo, and if any thing could be done,
it would be proposed to Parliatueut.
The vote of 1,980 5661. was then put.

Sir M. W. RIDLEY proposed as an amendment, 1,978,5661.
deducting 2,0001. as the salaries of two Lords of the Adnii-
rany.—The amendment was negatived/ and the origival lU-
solutivu agrevd•tu.

On the next vote, 1,591,4801. for building, rebuilding Ships,
&e. over and aboVe the wear and tear, Mr. flumc, inquired
into the charges for Stationery-Oul. at the Admiialty,
1 .9051. at the Navy Odice, and 2,0001. at. the Victualling Of-
fice. These sums he thought very large, and wished to know
how the Stationery was supplied; and what, besides paper,
pens, and ink, was included under that head ?
Sir G. WARRF,NDER was not aware of any thing but Sta-
tiOneiy being incraded under the heads; he explained than
of these, departments had to send much abro:id.
After some further remarks. from Mr. MINIANEY, Mr.
Humu, and Sir B. ?saris, the Resolution was agreed to;
as were also votes of 385,5001. for transports, &c. on foreign
minions, and 235;0001. for the transport service.
Sir JOSEPH YORKE, after recalling to memory the emi-
nent services of Mr. Rdhert Seppings, asked if tha, Gentle-
man had touched the cash, as it was understood last year he
would? Mr. Harrison. a Secretary to the Treasury, had got
50001. extra for his services; 'and he -hoped Mr. Seppiogs,
who had done sn much, was not neglected.
Sir.B. MARTIN said, he. would not act an honest part if
he slid tint aeknowlsdge in the highest terms the benefits
hich the naval service hail derived from Mr. Seppings.
That Gentleman could 'not be overpaid, and he believed that
he had been forgotten.
Mr. ELIAB HARVEY also bore testimony to Mr. Sep-
pings' great merit. No civil 'servant of the Navy had ever de-
served so much.
Admiral COCKBURN gave a similar opinion.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,. that in
rewarding Mr. Seppings, his own inclination had been con-
sulted, 4n d a provision for his family made agreeably to his
wishes.
The Report of the Committee was ordered to be received
on Monday.
Mr. ARBUTHNOT gave notice that he would move the
miscellaneous Estimates on Monday.
The Irish Court of fniancery Bill was read a second time,
and committed fur Friday.
The Irish Exchequer Chamber Bill was read a third time,
and passed..