The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-09 00:00:00

parish in which it had died. "Itis a most monstrous princi-
ple," said the Hon. Gentleman, " that a demand of 7s. or 12s.
should be made because my relations think proper to bury me
out of the parish in which I died."--( Loud laughter ) But in
some cases, where the parties were Dissenters, burial was re-
fused altogether. In legislating upon this subject, the difficulty
they won d have to contend with would be the Church, and
therefore he had great pleasure in moving the amendment he
had just read.
Dr. BOWRING seconded the motion.
Mr. MACKINNON said he felt himself placed in a very de-
licate situation.--(Laughter.) His Hon. Friend, the Membea
for Finsbury, with his winning ways, had come over to him,
and asked him to amend his resolution, and it appeared to
him (Mr. Mackinnon) that the only alternative open to him,
was either to give up the -resolution altogether, and give up
all chance of his Bill, or allow the amended resolution to be
carried, which had just been proposed. With regard to his
bringing in a Bill, it must be recollected, that he would
have to incur a great deal of trouble and expense, and would
have to consult several legal gentlemen. and after introducing
it, he would be told on the second reading that it wa' wrong
in is details, and therefore it would be thrown out. if this
resolution should be eased by the House, it would give an
impetus to public feeling on the subject. With respect to
what had fallen from the lion. Member for Lambeth, respeet-
the Dissenters, he would state that he had not the slia,hte.t
intention of reflecting on the Dissenters. He woula not
further trespass on the House than to say that he gave the
amendment his entire concurrence.
Sir R. INGLIS said that as he had taken considerable in-
terest in the Committee which was appointed to inquire into
this subject, he trusted the House would indulge him for a few
moments. He believed that the evils which were complained
of had arisen from the general neglect with which, throughout
the whole of the eighteenth century, the religious part of tha
community of England were treated by the Government. The
remedy for these evils was to be found in the extension of the
parochial system for the dead. A plan had been sug-
gested by the Committee, which was that parishes
should be empowered by Act of Parliament to join
in the purchase of ground for the .sepulture of the
r'ead. The Hon. Member for Finsbury had said that
the great difficulty they had to contend with was the Church.
Now let not the House be led away by the pleasing delusion,
that all those who were the advocates of cemeteries at Kensal
Green and at Norwood, or any other part of the circumference
of this metropolis, were embued with a pure disinterested zeal
to provide the cheapest place of sepulture for the poor inhabi •
tants of the metropolis; they were interested in inducing steps
to be taken for tha sepulture of the poor in the suburbs of th
metropolis. It mu't be recollected that, in this metro-
polis, in many eases, a large proportion of the income
of the clergy depended on what were called the surplice fees.
The maintenance of the ministers of religion, in the metro-
polis, was derived almost exclusively from the voluntary effer-
ings a their congregations at Easter, and whatever fees were
got for the burial-service, marriages, and baptisms; and un-
less they could, by extending their parochial system according
to the necessities of the case, so as to give places of sepulture
to the people more consistent with public decency, and even
health, there did not occur to him any other mode of remedy-
into the evil, which would not injure tho-e whose maintenance
depended on the present system. If that were so, it would be
a poor consolation, if it were a consolation at all, that they
encouraged joint-stock companies in seven or eight locali-
ties round the metropolis, while they injured the efficiency
of the ministers of religion within the metropolis. All he
desired was this, that if her Majesty's Government undertook
the remedy of an evil which they all admitted was great, they
would pay due regard to those interests which it was his humble
desire to advocate in that House. By providing that many
parishes should unite for the purpose of purchasing places of
burial, and at the same time taking care of the interest of the
incumbent in the metropolis, he thought they might succeed
in overcoming the difficulties which surrounded this subject.
Sir G. GREY said he concurred with the Noble Lord op-
posite (Earl of Lincoln) in thinking that the proper mode of
proceeding would be by Bill, and not by resolution, and al-u
that it would be better to have any measure on this subject in-
troduced by some Member of the Government. The diffi-
culties which encumbered the subject had been ably stated—
difficulties which induced him to think that a mea-
sure on the subject could not be introduced
with any prospect of success, unless it were brought forward
by a member of the Government. The question they had now
to consider, be apprehended, was whether, after the facts which
had come to light with respect to interments in the metropo-
lis and other large cities, it was not a subject well deserving of
the consideration of the Legislature, and it seemed to be the
opinion of the House that any measure on the subject should
be brought forward by her Majesty's Government. But if her
Majesty's Government were of opinion that the difficulties at-
tending it were so great that they declined to bring forward a
measure, he then thought that it was the duty of the House to
interfere, and even the very difficulties which attended it were,
in his opinion, an additional reason why the House should in-
terfere.—( Hear, hear.) The subject was so important, and
its evils were so pressing, that they would be forced to apply a
remedy.—( Hear, hear.)
Sir J. GRAHAM said be deprecated proceeding in this
matter by resolution, because it would lead to great incon-
venience, and give rise to false impressions out of doors. It
would be supposed that they were going to apply a remedy,
whereas there was no particular remedy proposed.
The Right Hon. Baronet (Sir G. Grey) said that Govern-
ment ought to turn its attention to the subject. Now he could
assure the House, that he had bestowed the greatest possible
attention upon it. He was the person who directed the atten-
tion of Mr. Chadwick to it ; but though the facts which that
gentleman collected were of the greatest importance, he must
say the remedy he suggested appeared to him (Sir J. Graham)
to be inapplicable. The question, as it affected the clergy,
which had been stated by his Hon. Friend (Sir R. Inglis), was
not the only difficulty. He did not think that that difficulty
alone would be insuperable; but in this instance that difficul'y
was enhanced by others on the part of several Dissenting
bodies. Several Dissenting chapels had burial grounds
attached to them, not for the direct benefit of the
minister or the congregation, but in trust for the benefit of all
who worshipped in the chapel, whether minister or congrega-
tion. And those were not the only considerations involved.
There were besides peculiar interests and feelingson the part of
the congregation, and even on the part of each member of the
congregation. And if they made it compulsory upon those Dis-
senters and others that they should not bury their friends in
their accustomed places of sepulture, but that they should be
removed elsewhere, then the objection stated by his Noble Friend
would arise. It was well-known that there was a natural wish
on the part of the friends of a deceased person to ac-
company his remains to their last home, and, if
they had to Abe taken to a distance, his relatives
would (in the case of a poor man) be obliged to
forego their days' wages ; and in winter they would be
driven to the alternative of either walking four or five miles, or
of procuring a means of conveyance at a great expense. But
the great difficulty of all was the desire which was inherent
in the human breast—a feeling upon which he could not reason,
for it was stronger than reason--a feeling which he would not
call prejudice, for it was connected with the best sentiments of
human nature—the desire of a relative wishing to lay his
hones by the side of his relative ; and however the feelings of
the public might be roused upon the great evils of the present
system he was satisfied that they would act most unwisely
in legislating hurriedly upon it. It was attended by great dif-
ficulties, but he did not mean to say that they
could not be got over by great care, caution, and consideration.
He had given his best attetion to the subject, but he was not
prepared with any measure at present. If, however, any other
Member of the House who had given his attention to the sub-
ject, was able to see his way snore clearly through its difficulties,
and was prepared with a remedy, he (Sir James Graham)
would be glad, instead of carping at it, to give it every aid in
his power. He could not concur in the abstract form of thc
resolution proposed by the Hon. Member for Finsbury, though
it was an improvement upon that of his Hon. Friend. He
would continue to give his attention to the subject; and from
interviews which he had upon the subject with various Dis-
senting bodies, he was satisfied, though convinced of
the great difficulties attending it, that any reasonable
arrangement would be agreed to on their part. He did
not think that a little delay in a matter like the present would
be thrown away. A case like the present was one in which
first impressions were always strong, but it was one also
where the greatest deliberation was required. He would,
therefore, advise the House not to pass a resolution like the
present, which would only impede the object they all had in
view.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. MACKINNON having withdrawn his resolution,
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment ...
Against it
Majority against the Government 17
Loud cheering followed the announcement of the numbers.
AGRICULTURAL STATISTICS.

Mr. MILNER GIBSON brought forward his motion re-
garding agricultural statistics, of which he had given notice.
Pie wished to ascertain the number of acres which were in the
United Kingdom, and the amount of agricultural produce
which they yielded. The House and the public were in total
ignorance on this subject, and last year its importance had
been fully recognised, when he brought forward the subject.
The Government then expressed its approval of the attempt
he had made to obtain this information, and tho then Pre-
sident of the Board of Trade said he would endeavour to ac-
complish the object. He would not now enter into the details
of the measure, but simply submit to the House the resolu-
tion which he had introduced last year, with a view of eliciting
from the Government whit progress had been made in ful-
filling their promise. Scarcely a day passed, that statements
of a most conflicting character were not made on this very
subject ; and it was most essential to the public that ex-
act and authentic information should be obtained.
The motion having been seconded,
The SPEAKER put the resolution, which was, " That an
humble address be presented to her Majesty, to the
effect that it was the opinion of the House that it was desirable
to obtain information regarding the amount of acres in cultiva-
tion in the United Kingdom—the amount of agricultural pro-
duce, with a specification of the various kinds, and such other
information as might enable the House to arrive at a correct
estimate of the agricultural capabilities of the United Kingdom.
_ Sir G. CLERK said he thought the Hun. Member brought
forward the matter rather with the view of ascertaining what
the Government had done on the subject than with any serious
intention of taking the opinion of the House on the resolution
itself, which it was impossible they could accede to. He was
ready to admit the great importance and the great benefit that
would result from theßrtliatinment of accurate information on
these points. The
rident of the Boardg of tion. Gentleman the late Pre-
attempt to obtain the Trade had promised to make an
requisite details, and in pursuance
of tat promise had, during
coreess, written to the Right
Hon. Gentleman the Secretor State for the Home Depart-
ment, who communicated with the Poor-law Commissioners
on the subject, as it was thoughtgetlairediinaation might be fur-
sit throe hoot the king-
nished by the various poor-law
y., stated that
disc. The Poor-law Commissioners,
in reps,
to such a
there were innumerable difficulties and
impossible to carry
course, and that it would be found almost
such a plan into operation. There was no
Holsectotzeon the
part of the Government to lay before the
which had been written by his Right Hon. Friend to the letter
Poor-
law Commissioners on the subject, and their reply upon the
subject. The substance of the reply of the Pour.law Commis-
sioners was, that they coull not impose any duties on the poor-
law guardians throughout the country, except what were in
some way connected with the poor-law systen,. He ( Sir G.
Clerk) had no objection to give all the in ormation on this
subject in his p 'vier, but it must be obvious that unless the
statistics obtained were full, comprehensive, entire, and accu-
rate,they would not be at all satisfactory. He was sorry he
could not point out any satisfactory means for overcoming there
difficulties. He must again repeat that he was willing to give
every facility to obtain the information required, and that he
considered it most important. lie, however, hoped that, on the
present occasion, the Hon. Gentleman would withdraw his
motion.
Mr. AGLIONBY thought the subject well worthy the at-
tention of the House. He supposed his Hon. Friend must
withdraw his motion ; but he would be anxious to see these
letters, and to ascertain what the gentlemen had said on the
subject. The Right Hon. Gentleman had admitted the im-
portance of the information, but did not show much anxiety
to obtain it. They had applied to the Poor-law Commis-
sioners, it was true, but why had they not applied to the Tithe
Commissioners, who could give the largest amount of informa-
tion, and the most accurate ? There would be no difficulty
whatever in obtaining the requisite information, if a real
anxiety were felt to procure it. For his part, be would under-
take, before that day week, to obtain a return of the number
of acres cultivated in his parish, and the amount of the various
kinds of. Lckup?, and every Hoti. Member could do the same.
SitaCkiitlncWiirsa, as the represeutatiYe of a large
" • •-•-
7F4'