The Sun.
London, England, 1829-05-22 00:00:00

LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, MAY '22, 1829.

and Learned Lord who introduced the Bill had, with
great ability, given an historical view of the business
before the Court of Chancery, at least of the judi-
cial part of it. It was impossible—looking at the
subject with reference to the duties of the Lord
Chancellor, in that House and out of that House—
it was impossible to deny that it became an impor.
tent consilleration for their Lordships whether jug_
tice could not be more properly administered, both
in the Court of Chancery and in that House. He
entirely agreed with the observation of the Noble
and Learned Lord—as to the complaints made by
successive Lord Chancellors on taking possession of
their office—of delays in the proceedings.. Sir
Thomas More, Lord Bacon, and all succeeding
Chancellors, had made the same complaint, and all
found that the delays could not be got rid ofiniexe-
cuting the duties of their office. Not withstanding
the many corrp'aints they had never been able' to
relieve the subject from the evils complained of.—
When he was a barrister in the Court of Chancery,
and a Noble Lord sat there for whom he entertained
a great respect—he meant Lord Apsley—an event
had occurred which he should never forget, which
showed what was the administrative business Qf that
Court. The judicial business of that Court had
been already explained, the administrative business
he would exemplify.. A person, for example, pos-
sessing large property, died, having many debts,
bond debts, debts of judgment, and other debts,
and he made A. B. his executor, who finding the
business involved in difficulty, did not care to act
in the office assigned him. Some of the creditors
filed a bill to compel the administration, and if
such a bill were not filed, a creditor might file
a bill for some purpose or other, or an action
might be brought against him, and he might
move for an injunction to stay proceedings, or
some creditor might file a bill because the executor
had paid an inferior creditor before a superior credi-
tor; or he might be obliged to amasser to a writ of
devastabit ; in any of these cases, in order to obtain
any practical relief, a bill must be filed in Chancery.
And when such a bill was filed, people were in the
habit of expressing their surprize that ,such a suit
was not speedily determined. They regarded it as
one suit, but it might so happen that there were a
hundred creditors, and the validity of the demands
of every one of them must first be ascertained before
the assets could be disposed of : and, instead of one
suit, the case was in fact a hundred suits. There
was one case for every creditor, and every legal de-
mand must be ascertained before the Court could
order the assets to be divided. The administrative
part of the business, was probably more difficult
than the judicial. He would take the case of the
Duke of Queensberry as another illustration. If lie
received one letter concerning that case, he had re-
ceived fifty, complaining of delay, and grossly
abusing him. Many of those letters were from per-
sons for whom, every person, whose heart had not
ceased to beat to the impulse of kindness, must have
sincerely felt; but what could he do ? That no-
bleman had made a great many leases which the
heirs complained of as alienations. It had to be as-
certained whether they were alienations, and if they
were not, the leases were valid. The legatees
called on the Chancellor to set the leases aside.
The tenants demanded that a portion of the pro-
perty should be reserved, to satisfy their claims, if
the leases NI ere set aside ; because the Duke had
covenanted with them to give them valid leases, and
they were entitled to substraction out of his pro-
perty, if the leases were not valid. The Court of
Chancery could not determine the validity of these
leases. That question was to be decided by the
Court of Session in Scotland; and after it was de-
termined by the Court of Session, the decision was
appealed from. A difficulty arose as to the nature of
the appeal, and as to the form in which it had come
from the Court of Session ; it was necessary to send it
back to that Court, and till the Court of Session and
the House of Lords had decided as to the validity of
the leases, the Court of Chancery could no more
order the assets to be distributed, than any other
Court of the kingdom. There was one excep-
tion ; reserving such a proportion of the property as
would satisfy the demands of the tenants, the Court
did pay out some portion to the legatees. Another
case, more administrative than judicial, was that of
Mr. Thellusson. He had so divided the property,
arid the large estates he died possessed of, that it
was impossible to say who was to take it. The
executors found themselves involved in difficulty, and
the property was thrown into Chancery, - and tile
Court of Chancery could not get it out. It would
remain there for some time to come, till it was as-
certained who was the person who was to take the
property under the will, which might not be ascer-
tained during this generation. A man might die
without debts, but leave a large personal property
in such a complicated condition, directing the trus.
tees to lay out the property in some particular man-
ner, paying the interest to some persons to whose
children the principal was ultimately devised. This
was a sort of case that had come before Lord
Apsley, for whore he had a great respect, the first
time he ever took his place in the Court of Chan-
cery. An old lady, a Peeress at that time, came
into Court, and with the respect due to her rank,
was seated on the bench, by the side of the Lord
Chancellor. She came to give her consent that a sum
should be paid out of Court, to the person who
was to take some property after her decease.
Lord Apsley told her lie would not detain her,
but she begged to be detained a little longer, as it
was only 82 years since her cause had been in Court,
and she wished then to see how they proceeded in
settling it. His Lordship then referred generally to
a case of an executor demanding an injunction as a
protection against a creditor, which we understood
him to say, he would never grant till he knew how
much property the executor had in his hands; but
his Lordship spoke at times so low that we could not
hear all that he said. There was great ignorance,
he was sorry to say, and great prejudice on the sub-
ject of the Court of Chancery, both in the public
generally and among the Common Law lawyers. It
would be some time before this prejudice was got rid
of. Even the late Lord Kenyon, who had practised
the greater part of his life at the Chancery Bar, and
who, when Master of the Rolls, thought fit to deal
with the Court of Chancery as other Common Law
lawyers, told a plaintiff who was nonsuited that he
might go, abi in nialam rent into the Court of Chan-
cery. He would ask the Noble and Learned Lord
on the Woolsack to take the matter into his consi-
deration before he interfered with the jurisdiction of
the Court of the Exchequer. Returning to the sub-
ject of the Master of the Rolls, without undertaking
to say what was the duty of the Master of the
Rolls, he knew that under Lord Thurlow and the
Lord Chancellor who succeeded him, he never had
refused to sit for the Lord Chancellor. On seal
days in particular, after the Lord Chancellor had
sat in the morning, the Master of the Rolls had
sat in the afternoon, and lie and his Noble and
Learned Friend (Lord Redesdale) had proceeded
to make motions before the Master of the Rolls till
daylight. It had been the practice for the last fifty
years to have one of the Puisne Judges of the
Court of Exchequer a good equity lawyer. For this
reason Thompson, the Chief Baron, was put on the
Bench ; this led to the appointment of Chief Baron
Eyre, Chief Baron Richards, and the present Chief
Baron. It was not his fault that there was not at
present one of the Judges of that Court well versed
in equity; he had wished to see the Learned Gen-
tleman then at the table (Mr. Courtenay,we believe)

take his seat in that Court. The difficulty of equity
practice might be known from the opinion of Chief
Baron Eyre; and an abler or a quicker man, or a
man who more considered what he' was about, he
had never knoWn on the bench. He had failed,
able as he was, to get through all the difficulties of
the question. He had miscarried in the execution of
his determination to effect some improvement. He
(Lord Eldon) thought he was entitled to ssy this,
for when he had the honour to sit with him as Chief
Justice of the Common Pleas, lie (Chief Baron E,vre)
had fairly owned to him that he had been misled in
equity, and had misled Lord Mansfield. The fends
that were collected, and to be disposed of by private
Acts of Parliament, and which could not be imme-
diately distributed, the funds of various Societies,
and' many others, for which immediate owners
could not be found, were all thrown into the
Court of Chancery,as the common receptableggeina,
or shop, for undistributed or undistributable funds,
arising from a vast variety of sources. His Noble
and Learned Friend on the Woolsack had adverted
to the dt,lay which arose horn the hearing of motions
in Gawps before they were iipe for hearing. It re-
quired a great sted!-of experienee inequity to enable
a Judge to dispose of causes on motions; but the
hearing of motions would lie beneficial if they were
such as would dispose of the whole cause before it
came to a regular hearing. Another cause in the
delay in the proceedings of the Court of Chancery
was the number of Irish causes which came by Ap-
peal to this House, after the Union; and, from the
complication of these cases, and the state of the
pleadings, one Irish cause gave more trouble to the
Judge who advised this House than twenty English
causes would do. All this load was thrown on the
Chancellor, independent of the business of his own
Court. Some time of erwards the Court of Session
in Scotland was divided into two Courts, and the
effect was, almost to double the number of Appeals.
The late Lord Liverpool had got him to sit three'',
days in the week on the Scotch Appeals in this
House—a practiee which would be very inconve-
nient, if continued, for the Lord Chancellor ought
to be enabled to devote more of his time in his own
Court ; for a Judge, unless he was in the habit of
deciding causes in some of the Courts below, could
not rightly do his duty in that House. Their Lord-
ships would allow him to say, that he was sorry that
this Bill did not include in it more of what wasintend-
ed ultimately to be done, which be admitted it could !
not well do in the present Session ; and therefore he
suggested a delay of the whole till the next Session.
As to removing the Equity jurisdiction altogether I,
from the Court of Exchequer, nothing could be more
objectionable, with reference, among other things, to
the compensations that must be made. But, in
point of fact, it could not be done. There were
many suits connected with the Crown revenue
which must be disposed of by the Equity jurisdic-
tion, the Exchequer ; and for that reason it had been
the practice, as it was the duty of the Lord Chan-
cellor to take care that there should be some one of
the Judges of that Court conversant with Equity
causes. In the time of the late Lord Chief Baron
Richards, the Equity jurisdiction was separated from
the Common Law jurisdiction of the Court of
Exchequer, and the Equity jurisdiction was confided
to the Lord Chief• Baron alone. He had heard this
morning from the present Lord Chief Baron, a most
formidable account of what would be the effect of
the notion of putting an end to his Equity jurisdic-
tion. He did not, however, say absolutely that-
no new Judge ought to be appointed in Chan-
cery; but he did object to the appointment
of a new Judge till lie knew what it was
that the new Judge would have to do. He
hoped the ' House would excuse him ; but he
thought it his duty most respectfully to his Noble
and Learned Friend on the Woolsack, and to all
others, to state such objections to this Bill as oc-
curred to him. He was convinced that the Equity
side of the Court of Exchequer would afford con-
siderable relief to the Court of Chancery if it were
encouraged. His Noble and Learned Friend hail
said, that be had resorted to the advice of the most
experienced authorities in the Courts of Equity,
and the matter was mentioned to him among others,
and he then did say that it might be of advantage
to have a new Judge in the Court of Chancery;
but he did not say that the new Judge ought to be
constituted as he was by this Bill. The Bill gave
no jurisdiction to the Master of the Rolls in bank-
ruptcy cases; and it gave no jurisdiction in these
cases to the new Judge. He agreed with his Noble
and Learned Friend in what he had said relative to
the London Commissioners of Bankrupts, and
thought it would be a good thing if the whole of the
' kind of duties which belonged to the Commissioners
were done by the London Commissioners. But
Lord Loughborough had appointed country lists of
Commissioners, and then it became a practice for
Lords and Members of Parliament to nominate who
should be on the Commission; but when he
came to make appointments to these situations, he
had of course given a preference to barristers re-
siding in the country, and as to the others he had
taken the best means ti,. ascertain who were the
most competent that could be got for the situation,.
and on that principle made the appointments. His
Lordship them adverted to the late Commission of
Chancery inquiry appointed by Parliament, and
highly commended the ingenuity, industry and talent,
with which they had done their duty to the public,
although he had not yet an opportunity of attending
to the operation of the orders made in conformity to
their recommendation; and he took occasion to say
that some Judges from the Common Law Courts
had formed almost as good Judges in Chancery as
ever had sat in that Court. When the Vice-Chan-
cellor was appointed, it was not with a view to the
relief of the Court of Chancery, but of this House,
which was overwhelmed with Scotch and Irish
causes, while, in the course of along period, there was
no more than one appeal from the Court of Great
Sessions in %Vales, and the Vice-Chancellor was
bound to attend to whatever business the Lord
Chancellor pleased to send to his Court—a matter
about which there was a great outcry at the time of
the appointment. Their Lordships ought also to
consider that if they were to have four Judges in
the Court of Chancery, there would be more ap-
peals; and this would often be attended with a per-
nicious expense—a great deal more, perhaps, than
the whole fund in litigation was worth. In cases of
bankruptcy, it was of great importance that the ulti-
mate decision should lie with the Lord Chancellor,
as he was the highest authority. His Lordship,
who did not speak so as to be at all distinctly heard
at the Bar, concluded by saying that he did not
mean to divide the House on the Bill, but merely
threw out these suggestions because he thought it
his duty to do so.
The LORD CHANCELLOR very much re-
gretted that his Noble and Learned Friend had not
stated his opposition, or rather his objection to the
Bill, at an earlier period, and had reserved the decla-
ration of his opinion till this last stage of the mea-
sure. He regretted it the more, because this laid
him under the necessity of entering again, as briefly
as possible, into some of the principal details which
he had laid before the House on the second reading.
In doing so, however, he did not mean to go over
the whole ground again v. hich he had before traversed,
but would make his statement as short as was con-
sistent with its being clear and distinct. He agreed
with his Noble and Learned Friend that the object
was of great importance, and deserving of the most
serious attention and consideration. His Noble and

Learned Friend entered into a detail of proceedings
in Courts of Justice, and he (the Lord Chancellor)
had done the same when he moved the second read-
int, of the Bill ; and he had said, that from the
difference in the nature of the proceedings in Courts
of Common Law and Courts of Equity it was ridi-
culous and absurd to compare one with the other,
with reference to evils and their remedies. His
Noble and Learned Friend had alluded to the Chan-
cery Commission, and certainly he (the Lord Chan-
cellor) had the highest opinion of the value of the
services rendered to the public by that Commission,
and he had no hes-itat:on in saying that the very
Learned Judge who was Chairman of that Commis-
sion was as competent a man to comprehond and to
do the duties of that situation as any Judge that ever
sat in the Court of Chancery—he meant the present
Master of the Rolls. 'Many of the alterations and
improvements recommended by that Commission j
were of the highest importance. It was found that
great and unnecessary delays existed in the proceed-
ings in causes from the time of commencement till
the time of hearing, and the Commission had sug-
gested a variety of remedies to put an end to such
unnecessary delays, most of which .had been, carried
into effect by orders of the Court. Ilii.Noble and
Learned Friend said that he had not looked over
these orders; but if his. Noble and Learned Friend
would apply his knowledge, observation, and experi-
ence to the examination of these orders, he would
find there well calculated to meet the evils to be
remedied, and that as much had been done in that
respect as could be done consistently with a due ad-
ministration of justice. This they had done with
reference to the proceedings from the commence-
ment of a cause till the hearing, and they had also
looked to the great delays which took place from the
time the cause was ripe for hearing till the final decision,
and the only material objection which he had made to
the Report of the Commissioners was, that for that
latter evil they had suggested no adequate remedy—
scarcely any remedy at all, and the evil existed al-
most to the same extent as before up to the present
hour. When their Lordships considered the mag-
nitude of the subject and its vast importance in
point of the value of the property influenced by the
Court, and when they were informed that according
to the average cf the period to which he had refer-
red that more than 18 months elapsed before a cause
could be called on for bearing after it was ready to
be heard, he would ask with confidence whether
this was not an evil which called upon the Govern-
ment for its interference ? He took occasion, when
he before addressed their Lordships, to point out to
them those evils existing in the Court of Chancery,
of the magnitude and enormity of which persons
conversant only with the Courts of Common Law
were aware. If 18 months were occupied in any
cause in the Courts of Common Law, at least it
could be said that by the expiration of that period
the cause was heard and decided, and there was an
end of the litigation. Very different was it in the
Courts of Equity. In the Court of Chancery a
cause was often heard in its different stages five, six,
or seven times, and the same delay occurred in each
of its stages. Was not that a plain proposition ?
Was it not a monstrous grievance ? Was it not
such a grievance as called for the attention of Par-
liament, and could there be any objection to give a
Judge a salary of six thousand a year to meet an evil
of such a description, and to carry into effect the
object of establishing an efficient jurisdiction over
property to such a vast amount ? It was not neces-
sary to spend any time, or to exhaust much of pa-
tience in the search of the records of the Court of
Chancery, to prove that the evil was of the nature
and to the extent that he had stated it. That very
day a cause had been called on in the Court which
fully illustrated his position—he alluded to the cause
of Fuller and Paris. The bill had been filed in the
year 1820; it was referred to the Master in 1822;
in 1824 the Master made his report. Exceptions
were taken to the Master's report ; those exceptions
were entered for argument ; the hearing had not
come on for the period of two years, when the ex-
ceptions were pleaded before the Vice-Chancellor,
and the report of the Master was ovekruled. This
decision was appealed against, and the appeal was
set down for hearing. Two years after it was heard,
in 1828, and now the cause was set down for the
hearing of the appeal in 1829. This was an illus-
tration which had occurred that very morning. Be-
fore Parliament had assembled he called upon his
Noble and Learned Friend (Lord Eldon), and pointed
out to him the state of things in the Court of Chan-
cery, suggesting that the better way would be to
see, in the first instance, if something could not be
done with respect to the Court of Exchequer. He
replied in the negative, and gave his opinion that
it would better to have an additional Judge. He
(Lord Lyndhurst) would wish to know, if the evil
were such as he was stating it to be, whether a
remedy ought not to be applied; and if it were to
be applied, all he asked was, of what nature was
it to be ? If there were not sufficient power in the
Chancellor to hear causes when they were ripe for
hearing, the only way was to give additional powers;
and he knew of no other mode by which this could
be accomplished except by creating an additional
Judge. His Noble and Learned Friend at the table
(Lord Eldon), last night, in adverting to the sub-
ject had expressed his thoughts that much might
be done with respect to the Counsel; but give him
(Lord Lyndhurst) leave to say that no reproach
could be brought against the Counsel of the Court,
with reference to this subject. If the system were
such as to admit of Counsel practising in two
Courts, it certainly could not be a matter of re-
proach to them that they did so. With reference
to these gentlemen to whom he was now alluding,
there were nine of them who had most readily and
cheerfully acquiesced in the alterations which he
proposed. Ile begged their Lordships to under-
stand fully that as he was not mixing up this ques-
tion with the Court of Exchequer, or with the
transfer of the jurisdiction of the Exchequer to the
Court of Chancery. His Bill was a measure to-
taliy independent ; and he begged their Lordships
to keep in mind that it consisted of nothing more
than the appointment of an additional Judge. His
Noble and Learned Friend had said something
upol the subject of Bankruptcies. This led him
to recal to their Lordships' attention what was'
supposed to be a remedy to the evil. His Noble
and Learned Friend at the table (Lord Eldon) had
acquiesced in the notion that the evil could not
be remedied by separating the Bankruptcies from
the Chancery jurisdiction. This measure would be
mischievous and ruinous, and it would not be less
expensive, less objectionable, or less oppressive,
than the measure which be now proposed that
their Lordships should adopt. His Noble and
Learned Friend had suggested that the different
Judges in the Chancery Court should have a jurisdic-
tion in bankrupt cases. He had given the subject
much consideration. With reference to the Bar,
and to the Gentlemen who practised in the Bank-
ruptcies' Courts, the best course to take, in his
opinion, would be to confine the bankruptcies to
the Vice. Chancery Court, subject to the controul
of the Chancellor. With reference to another part
of the Bill, he should propose that the new Judge
should have power to hear all causes, as well as ay-
peals and demurrers, and motions in equity. He
should be enabled to hear every thing arising out of
a suit in equity, except some points in the equitable
jurisdiction which did not extend to the Master of
the Rolls, and which he had no intention of extend-
ing to ,the new Judge. It was proposed to add

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said, during the discussion, of a personal nature,
with reference to the Master of the Rolls. No per-
son was better acquainted with the services of that •
Learned Judge than the Noble and Learned Lord at
the table. He (Lord Lyndhurst) would cheerfully
subscribe to any opinion in favour, of the great
merits of the Learned Judge who presided in the
Rolls' Court. He would have no hesitation in say-
ing, that there was no person who had disposed of
more causes, or had decided more que•-qions within
an equal period, than that Learned Judge. During
the period that he had presided in that Court, he
had been one of the most able in the support of the
equitable jurisdiction of the country. Whilst that
Learned Judge was oppressed by illness, he (Lord
Lyndhurst) had not thought it correct to introduce
any clause into the Bill bearing upon him, but it had
occurred to him that it would prove of great ade
vantage to the Chancery business if that Learned
Judge would sit in the morning. Their Lord-
ships would find no clause to that effect ifs
the Bill, but he was quite satisfied
that. that
Judge would have no objection to acquiesce m tho
proposition, and, in fact, he had acquiesced directly
it had been communicated to him. Respecting
the clause enacting that that, Learned • Judge
should have a jurisdiction in certuin suhordinnta
matters, he had observed that it was very hard to throw`
a new burthen upon him. He (Lord Lyndhurst)
had acquiesced in the observation, and had replied,
that he certainly had not come into office upon arty
such consideration ; and if he had any objection to
the arrangement, he dearly ought to be exempt front
the operation of the Bill. He was, however, happy'
to announce to their Lordships, that that Leartisd
Judge, in his anxiety to promote whatever could
tend to the advantage of /he public business, had
sacrificed all personal considerations, and had ac-
quiesced in the arrangement. He was perfectly sae
tisfied with the clause in th,e'Bill. The only objec-
tion to the Bill, in its present form, was that adverted
to by his Nobleand Learned Friend at the table. That
Learned Lord had truly observed, that if they in.
creased the number of decisions, in the ssme propor•
tion they would increase the number of appeals. lie
felt it was absolutely necessary to recur to this topic,
to which, however, manyof their Lordships would re-
member that he had before adverted. The observa-
tion he before made was, that as the Court of Chan-
cery was at present constituted, the Chancellor had
no power or opportunity to hear one description of
precedents... That species of business to which the
Noble Lord alluded is poured in upon biro so itices-
sandy, and in such masses, as to deprive hint of the
opportunity of hearing appeals. He acquiesced in
this objection, and the Lord Chancellor ought to be
able to devote a portion of his time to the hearing-of
causes. When he stated the number of appeals to
the Chancellor from the Vice-Chancellor and the
Master of the Rolls, upon the avet age of many years,
that
the House would be surprised to hear L
number did not exceed forty per annum. All the
business of the Lord Chancellor in the shape of
appeals did not average more than forty causes ill
each year. He would allow that if decisions of the
original causes were to be made more rapids appeals
would in all probability increase in numbers f and he
would calculate that the appointment of a new Ithlog
would be the means of increasing the present nuns=
ber of appeals by one half, so that instead of forty
there would be sixty appeals for the Clienetllor to
hear in each year. Now he would ask his Node and
Learned Friend at the table, whether he really
thought that sixty appeals in the course of a year
were likely so to oppress any Lord Chancellor that
he could not contrive to wade through his busines=s
In consequence of the present delays iii causes,
incessant motions of an adverse desetjartion
arose, and which were the subject of frequents
appeals. What he wanted was, to give all , the
suitors or applicants to the. Court of Chaneery, tint
opportunity of having their causes heard, when they
were ripe for hearing; so that there should be no
break in the progress of the business. Upon duly
considering the subject, he was sure that his Learned
and Noble Friend would find that this suggestion
was of serious consequence to the suitors of the
Court, and that it would have a material elect
upon the progress of the business of the Court,srad
upon the duration of causes. Such was the simple
nature of the measure he had to bring forward, and
to attain these objects, lie proposed the appointment
of an additional Judge. He would admit that he
had stated upon a former occasion, and he still en-
tertained the opinion, that the present measure
might be recommended from another circumstance.
The Noble and Learned Lord at the table, when he
(Lord Lyndhurst) had first brought this 13111 into
the House, had not read the report of the Common
Law Commissioners. That report had recom-
mended the separation of the Equity Jurisdiction
from the Common Law Jurisdiction. Some doubts
had been entertained with respect to this point when
he had before offered himself to their Lordships' at-
tention upon the subject. He would now beg their
Lordships to attend to what the Commissioners
had said upon this point in their report. He would
quote their words :—" We apprehend that this
great object may be attained by relieving that Court
(of Exchequer) from its Equity Jurisdiction, and by
giving to the three Courts the same advantage, and
placing them on the same footing in respect to the
mode of appeal from their decisions. It is obvious,
however, that the efficacy of such arrangements, and
the attainment of the object in view, must entirely
depend upon the judicial character of the persons
who, from time to time, shall be appointed to fill the
benches of the different Courts; and we may be
permitted to suggest that the benefit of a fortunate
selection is never so sensibly felt as when it relates
to a Court which, at the time, may happen to stand
lowest in the public estimation, and consequently to
have the smallest share of business. In this view the
selection of a Judge to supply avacancy in the Court,
which, for the time being, possesses the smallest
share of business, will generally be of more import-
ance to the public than the appointment to supply
a vacancy in a Court which is overcharged. To
insure to the Court of Exchequer, as a Court of
Common Law, an equal character of efficiency with
the Courts of King's Bench and Common Pleas, it
appears to us to be necessary that the Equity jut is-
diction of that Court should no longer be exercised
by its Common Law Judges; that the Common
Law business of that Court should be transacted, as
in the Court of King's Bench and Common Pleas,
by four Judges, and that the Court of Error for the
review of its judgments, should consist of the mem-
bers of the other two Courts." (Page 23.) Sir
J. Richardson had sa'd that the Equity juris-
diction of the Court of Exchequer ought to Le
separated and placed under another jurisdiction,
and that the Common Law jurisdiction should
be preserved. There were two modes of ef-
fecting this object. The first was by adding an-
other Judge to the Exchequer, or by adding an
Equity Judge to a Court of Common Law, and al-
lowing that portion of Equity business now trans-
acted in the Exchequer to be transacted by that
Judge. He knew very well that objections were
stated to this mode. He would ask what was done
in the way of Equity business in the Court of Ex-
chequer ? Of causes between party and party, not
more than thirty original causes were disposed
of in the last year. This was only one-tenth
of the number of causes disposed of by the
Vice-Chancellor within the same period. An
Act of Parliament had been passed to enable the
Chief Baron of the Court of Exchequer to hear all
cases in Equity in the Exchequer; and he now pre.
posed that the new Judge to be appointed in the
Court of Chancery, as far as private nutividuels were
concerned, should have the opportunity of hearing
all such causes. He did hot mean to affect the esta-
blishment of the Court of Exchequer, for it might
move with it with respect to the new jurisdiction,--
His Noble and Learned Friend had said last eight tfait
all Revenue business was on the Equity sideof ,the
Court of Exchequer, but in fact all; the officers Odle
Courts did was merely adminiskrations. In old
times the officers transacted the bueinesi Of the

tone, but in modern times the course was com-
pletely altered; for it was well known that the So-
licitors of the different Boards employed by Govern-
ment did the whole of the business which used to
be done by the proper officers of the Court. All
those officers now did was, merely to record the
proceedings, though they were paid the same fees as
when the burden of the business lay upon their
hands. The Common Law Commissioners, in their
report, had recommended that the Court of Exche-
Laer should be altered into a Court of Common
w and of Revenue. He meant not to touch that
part of the proceeding. He begged, however, that
kioble Lords would not infer from that, that it was
not the intention of Government to interfere with
it, for he coull inform the House that for several
years past the Lords of the Treasury had directed
their attention to that part of the establishment of
the Exchequer. It had appeared to their Lordships
to be cumbrous and unnecessary, and various
Ants of Parliament and reports had been drawn up
by the Law Officers of the Crown, upon the
principle that the whole of this department should
be remodelled. Their Lordships might form some ade-
quate notion of the absolute and urgent necessity of
remodelling this department, when he laid before
them one strong and remarkable fact. He alluded
to one of the highest officers of the revenue depart-
ment of the Exchequer, who for very many years
had never been within the precincts of the Court,
or had seen any thing of its business. He had, in
fact, for many years resided upon his property in the
East Riding of Yorkshire, and had received five
thousand a year ; whilst all the duties, such as they
were, were performed by his deputy, who did not
receive more than five or six hundred a year.
Lord ELDON—Name, name him. Whom do
you mean
'the LORD CHANCELLOR—IIIs name was

but I have no occasion to mention his name
---it is well known to all of you.—(Laughter.) His
Lordship continued—There was another point of the
business of the Court, to which he would now call
the attention of the House : he alluded to the Ex-
thequer informations respecting publications. These,
he must state, were in every respect strictly Equity
proceedings. When he had had the honour of fin-
ing the office of Attorney-General, he had had ample
opportunities of knowing the extent and number of
these proceedings, and of becoming acquainted with
them in all their progress and relations. Now he
could say that there were not two of these cases
filed in a year. He could assert that the claims of
this class involved no point of equity of any conse-
quence whatever. He should say that the Chief
Baron, with the assistance of the Judge under the
Lord Chancellor, might decide all the causes of this
description, without, as he could conceive, any
difficulty or inconvenience. He did not think that
it could be necessary for him to go into any fur-
ther details upon any part of the subject at the
present moment. His proposition was simply the
appointment of an additional Judge to the Court
of Chancery. - If in the result it should turn out
that this additional Judge should have time to do
any other business in the Chancery Court, he could
only say that he might then be made available for
the purposes of carrying into effect the recommend-
ations of the Common Law Commissioners, if Par-
liament should think proper to adopt them. His
Bill was now before their Lordships, and he had,
he believed, distinctly explained his object as well
as his motives of proceeding. He could only re-
peat his trust, that the House would feel most
sensibly the enormity of the existing evil, and how
necessary it was to provide a suitable remedy with
as little delay as possible. Many who heard him
contemplated these evils only through' the medium
of report, but they were more deeply impressed
upon the minds of those who practised in the
Chancery Court. There the. present system was
seen in its effects upon the ruin of families, and
the misery .of individuals. The conflict of the
passions, and the exhanStron of funds, were not
only sources of • present misery; but' they entailed
poverty and. wretchedneis not only upon individuals,
but whole classes of individuals.—(Hear.)—He
hoped the House would be- satisfied, now that he
had, in the performance of his duty, pointed out to
them the circumstance, nature, and character, of the
existing evil, and the Legislative measure necessary
to relieve it he trusted the House would supply.
Lord ELDON explained— His Lordship denied
the conversation relative to the assent of the Master
of the Rolls to the present Bill, in the parts relating
to this Court.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that the
Master of the Rolls had declared he had no objec-
tion to sit in the morning. He had objected to
hear pleas, motions, and demurrers ; but the Bill
had been so framed as to obviate that objection, and
ne had made no complaint that it was not satisfac-
torily obviated.

Cord HOLLAND said that Lis Noble and
Learned Friend (if he would permit him to call him
so)" on the Woolsack, would, he hoped, excuse him
for-having postponed stating his objections to the
II to: so lste a period of its progress through the
House. He felt it his duty, however, to the public
to state what his objections to the Bill were, for he
had considerable doubts of the propriety of the mea-
sure. His Noble and Learned Friend on the Wool-
sack had said that the Bill was a very simple Bill,
and this was his (Lord Holland's) objection to it.—
It was a Bill to create a new office and a new juris-
diction. What he complained of Isas, that the
House was called upon to do what might he neces-
sary to do eventually and upon the whole, but which,
until the whole subject was embraced, was per se
malum. He would not withhold his assent to a
grant of ten, or even twenty thousand a year to ally
officer, if he thought by voting that money, he
should really do any thing to expedite- the adminis-
tration of justice. God forbid he should have any
such feeling. But taking the Bid as a simple propo-
sition, it reminded him of what had been said by
Sir Edward Coke, " There were two great evils,
of airy pretences and of mischievous consequence—
the cresting of a new office, and the creating of a
new operation." These two things the House was
called upon to do. He did not object to a new
Court, or a new Judge, for he was inclined to sus-
pect that both would be found necessary; but he
objected to the appointment of either as a preliminary
measure. Let the House have the whole case and
the whole remedy before it, ere it acceded to such
a proposition. He felt very grateful to the Noble
and Learned Lord for his speech. What he com-
plained of was this, that the Noble and Learned
Lard having in that speech sketched the out-
line of the various measures which it was
his intention to propose, had subsequently brought
forward only one part, and that not the most
estimable part, of those measures. The Noble
and Learned Lord—and the hour (it was nearly
seven o'clock), perhaps, suggested to him
(Lord Holland) the illustration—having sub-
mitted to the House, and to the public, a bill of
fare, containing the names of a number of excellent,
and delicate, and palatable dishes, instead of pur-
suing the usual custom on such occasions of laying
the dishes upon the table, laid only the reckoning.
—(A laugh.)—lt was rather too much thus to call
upon them to pay for the feast, before they had en-
joyed it. He did not oppose the principle 'of the
Bill : but still he was very desirous to know' by what
other measures it was to be followed. The course of
proceeding adopted by the NOble and Learned. Lord
would admit of what might, however, be considered
as too ludicrous an illustration. It was well known
that mans of the cockneys and Gilpins of the pre-
sent day, owing to the great improvemept that had
taken place in the diffusion of knowledge, were in-
duced to take their wives •and families to see some-
thing of the Continent, instead of being- satisfied
with their former trips to Brighton 'or Margate.
When John Bull, who had been accustomed only
to a chaise and pair, prepared to set off with his
ecitinpanions and luggage from the first post town in
France, he was akreeabiy surprised to find that the
pole was taken out of the chaise, and a shaft sub-
stituted; and that there were to be three horses
abreast. ",This will be fine driving," quoth John.
n.. o.ttla_ however. he speedily be.

came disatisfied. He saw in the centre one power-
ful animal, able, like the present Master of the
Rolls, to draw the whole equipage himself; but then
he saw at the sides of this noble creature two
miserable nags, from whom he could expect no as-
sistance.—(A laugh.)—The harness also appeared
so bad, and the traces so loose, that it was evident
the progress of the vehicle must be slow. John
complained to the Postmaster of the hardship, and
received an explanation in a jargon which he did not
very %yell understand, but from which he was able
to gather that the Postmaster laid great stress on
the efficacy of a fourth horse. To John's great dis-
may, hove er, this fourth horse was never attached
to the carriage; and he found that he had to pay
for that the benefit of which he had never received.
Such was exactly the simple remedy of the Noble
and Learned Lord. Their Lordships were called upon
to take it alone; and to trust that the other andmore
desirable measures would make their appearance by-
and-by. It was, however, AO new measure. It had
been tried before. It was simply another Vice-
Chancellor's Bill. At the time when the Vice-
Chancellor's Bill was before their Lordships, he
(Lord Holland) had opposed it on grounds, some of
which on consideration he gave up, but others of
which still appeared to him to be just and right.
The Noble and Learned Lord, probably in the
warmth of ar;uenent, alluded the ether day to the
objections to that Bill which fifteen years ago had
been urged in the other House by Sir John Leach.
He was sorry the Noble and Learned Lord had done
so ; because he had not added, as he should have
done, what followed. He had not added that Lord
Castlereagh, in ans wer to the recommendation of
Sir John Leach to compel the Master of the Rolls
to sit in the mornings as well as in the evenings,
had said that Sir William Grant, the then Master
of the Rolls, had been consulted on the subject, but
that he was averse to comply; so that there was an
end to the matter, as it would be improper and un-
constitutional to interfere with a patent office against
the will of the existing proprietor, and most cruel
and unjust to do so with reference to so eminent a
Judge, and from whom the public had experienced
such valuable services as Sir William Grant. In
the propriety of this observation the House, and he
believed Sir John Leach, acquiesced ; and that was
a circumstance which the Noble and Learned Lord
ought to have mentioned. The Bill now in pro-
gress created a new Court and a new Judge. He
was not prepared to say that they might not be ne-
cessary, and desirable, in conjunction with the
other measures which the Noble and Learned
Lord had it in contemplation to introduce. But
he was not prepared to agree in the first in-
stance to the creation of a new Court and a stew
Judge, until he should have a clear understand-
ing of the measures by which that proposition
was to be followed. As to the clauses of the Bill,
some of the objections which had been entertained '
towards them had been removed, but others remain-
ed. When the Bill was first introduced he felt an
objection to the clauses which went to impose on
the Master of the Rolls a jurisdiction which he had
never vet had. He thought those clauses cruel and
unjust to the individual who at present held that
high situation, and probably fraught with incon-
venience to the suitors of the Court. With regard
to the subject of the motions, pleas, and demurrers,
he begged to say one word. He believed that the
Master of the Rolls did not take cognizance of tno-
tione, pleas, and demurrers belonging to the Cow t
of Chancery. There was no law by which the
Lord Chancellor was empowered to send such mo-
tions, pleas, and demurrers to any other Court. But
when the Vice-Chancellor's Bill was under conside-
ration, it was so framed as to enable the Vice-Chan-
cellor, whenever the Lord Chancellor might think
proper, to hear and determine, and to give orders
respecting motions, pleas, and demurrers from the
Court of Chancery. It was thought that this regu-
lation would operate as a great relief to the Court of
Chancery. Those motions, pleas, and demurrers
were, accordingly; sent to the Vice-Chancellor's
Court during the ten years that his excellent friend
Sir John Leach was at the head of it ; and during
that time he (Lord Holland) believed that there

were never two in arrear. Now to say that when that

eminent person, after working so industriously for
such a length of time to keep down the arrears of his
Court, was raised to the higher and more honourable
station of the Master of the Rolls, bec-ause during
the two years that he had left the Vice-Chancellor's
Court the arrears had accumulated, the burden was
to be sent to follow him into the Rolls Court, had

appeared to him to be a piece of injustice, cruelty,
and hardship, which it was difficult to characterise
in terms of sufficient reprobation. From what had
fallen from the Noble and Learned Lord, however,

he was happy to find that he was in error on this
subject; an error arising, no doubt, from his own
inadvertence. He was very happy to be corrected.
Still, however, the certainty which the suitors of
the Rolls Court _at present enjoyed, would be lost

by the clauses of the present Bill; an arrangement
to which he must object, until it was proved that
the number of motions, pleas, and demurrers sent by
the Court of Chancery to the Vice• Chancellor's
Court, was too large for that Court to deal with.—
On that narrow ground, therefore, he was still dis-
satisfied with the clauses of the Bill. He would
move as amendment, that the Bill be read a third
time on that day fortnight.
Lord REDESDALE earnestly wished that the
Noble and Learned Lord would withdraw the
Bill, for it was one which required much greater
consideration on the part of their Lordships, as
well as on that of the Noble and Learned
Lord. It required much previous communica-
tion with the Barons of the Exchequer, and
with the other officers of that Court; a com-
munication which, he believed, bad not hitherto
been held. As to the appellate jurisdiction, when
it was considered that the appeals from the
Court of Exchequer lay only to that House, while
the appeals from the new Judge would lie to the
Lord Chancellor as well as to the House, it was
evident that the proceeding was calculated to in-
crease the burden on the shoulders of the Lord
Chancellor. What necessity could there be for the
passing of the Bill in the present Session ? It was
only a part of a general measure, the remainder of
which could not be considered until next Session.
He repeated, therefore, his hope that the Noble and
Learned Lord would withdraw the Bill. He (Lord
Redesdale) might, without vanity, be supposed to
know something more about equity business than
the Noble and Learned Lord, having breathed the
air of a Court of Chancery for nearly three-score

years.
Lord TENTERDEN had no objection to the
principle of the Bill, or to the creation of a new
Judge. The immense increase of legal business, con-
sequent on a similar increase in the business of the
country, rendered such a measure advisable. But
he strongly deprecated any reduction of the equitable
jurisdiction of the Court of Exchequer--a jurisdic-
tion which, in his opinion, ought rather to be
strengthened and augmented.
The Amendment was then negatived without a
division, and the Bill ►vas read a third time and
passed.
-The Marquis of LONDONDERRY presented
a petition from certain coal agents, praying that the
London Bridge Bill might not pass into a law.
Adjourned at Half-past Eight o'clock.