The Sun.
London, England, 1845-07-01 00:00:00

not the Roman Catholic merchants in Dublin hare an
opportunity of having ►heir sons educated at Trinity
College, Dublin. The Roman Catholics were quite con-
tented that so much should be reserved for the Protestant
Clergy as was necessary ? Why not open twenty scho-
larships to the Roman Catholics in Trinity College, and
provide endowments which should be also open to them ?
He had taken this opportunity of offering a few sugges-
tions to the Government, because he was really anxious
that the Bill should succeed. His present impressior
was, that if this Bill was enacted in its present form it
would prc've a nullity. They must remember that the
Bishops- of Ireland were chosen by the people, and en-
joyed perfect confidence, and whatever they recommended
was to be considered as an exposition of the opinions of
the Catholics of Ireland. He should have thought that they
had had sufficient experience in the Charter school, not
to mention other analogous cases, of attempting to govern
schools independent of that opinion. If they proceeded
on their present principle, they might as well withdraw
the Bill altogether. Lord Stanley had given them a
system of poor-law, which was Carried against the
wishes of the Irish Members, and it eltimately proved a
failure. He should like to see the Government doing
justice to Ireland by consulting the opinions and the
feelings of her people.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said he had hoped the Bill
would have bent allowed to go into Committee without
any more discussion on its general principles. The
Hon. Member admitted the necessity for a measure of
this kind, and, therefore, he (Sir James Graham) con-
sidered the best course would have been for him to
allow the Bill to go into Committee, and when
there to consider what amendments were necessary

for the efficiency of the Bill. He was not prepared to
say thigt he was opposed to all the amendments pro-
posed by the Hon. Member, though he would beg lo ob-
serve that the principles involved in them had been fully
discussed both by the Noble Lord the Member for Lon-
don, another Noble Lord (Lord Mahon), and other
Members who had suggested alterations and amend-
ments. The Hon. Gentleman accused the Government
of corrupting the minds of the people of Ireland. But
he had such an opinion of the importance of diffusing
general intelligence that 1:e believed there could be no
greater means of preventing their corruption. The reli-
gious education of the students was not neglected. It
was provided for, first, under the care of the parents
themselves ; secondly, under the care of the persons
selected by the parents or guardians ; and, thirdly,
by the heads of the Halls, who would be chosen by
the professors, subject to the approbation of the Crown.
With respect to the representation of the Right Rev.
Prelates, since that was made several amendments had
been made in the Bill. Tne colleges were intended for
secular education, and that only. Religious instruction
was not to he given there.
Mr. O'CONNELL said he would not retard the House
by expressing his sentiments, and thought it would be
useless to do so after the declaration of the Right Hon.
Baronet. He agreed with the Right Hon. Baronet in
thinking the House ought not to submit to the dictation
of any body of' persons, however respectable, and how-
ever henourahle. What signified the expenditure of
money,aild the appointment of professors, if they did not
attenri to the advice of the Right Rev. Prelates, the Bill
would not sucesed, Ti.e Righ` II _et. Baronet said the
Bill had been much altered. lie was in possession of
the opinion of those prelates, which showed that the
alterations made had created no change in their minds.
The lion. and Learned Gentleman then read a letter
dated Maynooth College, June 26, from Archbishop
IVPITaIe, which set forth the unanimous opinion of the
Prelates as to the immoral and irreligious tendency of
the Bill remaining twaltered. Some of the prelates
were of opinion that they should petition Par-
liament, taking the memorial already published
as a model for such petition, but subse-
quently Agreed not to do so, in consequence of
the disrepect with which the opinions of the Prelates
had been already treated in Parliament.—(Hear, hear.)
The Right Rev. Prelate further described the Bill as a
heinous and revolting act, and again mentioned that the
opinion of the Prelates expressed in the memorial re-
mained unaltered. The Bill (continued the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman) was justly considered as a tempta-
tion to youth to neglect their duty, which they owed to
the first principles of religion. Some words in the
letter might be too strong, but it was, at all events,
characteristic of the strong feeling which the Bill had
created in Ireland. The object of its promoters was of
course success, and how could they expect success when
the opinions of two thirds of the people of Ireland were
in strong opposition to it. His object was to obtain re-
ligious as well as secular instruction for the people.
This the Bill had not done, and therefore he objected to
it. They bad positively done nothing by these alterations.
They ha i to be sure, given permission to enact a Bill for
religious purposes, but this provision/ was only
negative, for, according to the decision of Lord Chan-
cellor Sugden, that power existed already. The law
was quite settled on that point. There was no
longer any doubt but Catholics might endow schools and
convents, as the Right Hon. Baronet had said. This
measure propagated darkness; common charity would
be promoted best by giving each sect instruction in their
own religion ; let them give one hall for theology to the
Roman Catholic, another to the Protestant, and another
to the Presbyterian, but as now arranged they left all in
original darkness, and defeated their own intentions.
The Protestants comprised the wealthiest in Ireland,
and the present measure virtually allowed wealth to
triumph over religious poverty by leaving endowment
to voluntary bounty. He should take one division on
an early clause, not from any hope of success, but be-
came he felt that he should have done his duty to his
corThcience and his country. He protested against the
measure, because he regarded it as totally irreligious,
and giving a one-handed permission to darkness and
irreligion.
Lord J. RUSSELL considered the observations of
the Learned Member for the county of Cork of the
greatest importance, accompanied as they were by the
opinions of the Reiman Catholic prelates. He could not
go the length of designating the measure a penal enact-
ment, but thought some weight should be attached to
the observation of it being dangerous to faith and
morals, and certainly if pissed in opposition to the wish
of the hierarchy of Ireland, it would not at least be
useful. He should not oppose its going into Com-
mittee ; in that stage it might possibly be amended, bat
if it came out of Committee with the stigma unremoved,
he thought the Bill ought not to be sent over to Ireland.
One r,CI4 r provision he considered very objectionable—he
meant that of thy- appointment of professors ; but as
amendinente on that ,uO.k.t would be subsequently pro-
pased, he should rec rv;r any further remarks till that

The Hoe, thee riete into Committee on the Bill.
On the first clause being read, proposing that 100,0001.
be appropriated for the erection of three colleges, appor-
tioned in sums of 33,3331. 6s. Bd. respec:ively,
Lord J. RUSSELL rose to move an amendment. He
moved th et in line 17 of the clause, the words be inserted
" including the building of the halls hereinafter men-
tioned," and that they leave out the words "not exceed-
ing 33,3331. 6e. Bd. for each such college."
Sir J. GRAHAM opposed the amendment as decidedly
at variance with the principle of the Bill. It would be
introducing the principle of religious education as a part
of the scheme if they allowed this provision to be intro-
duced into the 13.11. He therefore decidedly objected to
what the Noble Lord propesetd. He considered that the
100,000/. would be little enough fur the other purposes
A. the Bill, without eppl; ing any of it as the Noble Lord
desired. If it was the opinion of the House a discretionary
power might be invested in the trustees, but the amend-
ment was at variance with the principle of the Bill.
Mr. WYSE said that he differed from the Right Hon.
Baronet as to the principle of the Bill. There was no
necessity for considering the halls and the colleges as
bound OR the same principle, for they were indeed
essentially dE'erent. If it was objected that no grant
could be made fie. religious instruction in the halls, yet
that objection was overruled in the colleges. If the
governing body of the colleges were not worthy of the
confidence of the Catholic community, then indeed
the objection might be made, but if it were, though he
should object to tho supremacy of one governing body
over the proceedings of another as being incompatible
with that supremacy which ought to be held in each,
yet, under the circumstances, he did not see that the
amendment was opposed to the principle of the Bill, and
ielvas entitled to his support.
Mr. Sergeant MURPHY thought that any aid con-
tributed out of the public purse would be contingent on
• any contributions of the nighbourhood.
Sir R. PEEL said that the Government had made a
much more liberal provision, fer they had proposed that
100.0001. should be appropriated to the erection ofcolleges,
halls, and other edifices, but without the appropriation
of any portion for the resideeces of the professors. Yet
they would not refuse any aid for the secular instruction
of the youth sent to these colleges, and it would be un-
reasonable to refuse the same aid for the religious
instruction of the pupils. They were ready to receive
these contributions for the endowment of these halls,
And they were quite ready to allow the use of the pulpits in
those hulls to the clergy of the Catholic body. (gear,
hear.) The object was not to conciliate the Catholic
body, but to adjust the respective claims of the several
parties. Was it not then reasonable to say the Roman
Catholics, the Presbyterians, and the Independents
s should provide for their own religious instruction? They
were willing to provide for the best secular instruction
of those bodies, and he thought that it would be unreason-
able to provide for the r, ligtous instruction of theßoman
Catholic pupils, and he thought, therefore, that any ade
•judication of money out of the public
• contrary to the principle of the Bill. purse would be
Mr. VERNON SMITH—The object of this amend-
nient was not to test the validity of the grant, but to
• elicit the feelings of the people. He contended that it
was a bad principle to leave the moral supervision to
voluntary contributions. He quite agreed with his Hon.
Friend (Leril J. Russell) that the professional system
what had the llon.
was quite unfitted e:e Ireland. Now,
Genl ternan toll t" ;a tte ether night, why, that these
eeleges weee ,ieteieled for benefit of the middle
e-!assee. The studies r active life of that class began at
17 or 18 years of age, and at that time it was in which
'relieious instruction was most especially needed, and yet
thele:g'rit Hon. Baronet proposed to leave this religious
instruction to the voluntary feelings of the people. He
thought the effect of such arrangement was not likely
•to prove very satisfactory His Noble Friend wished to
••:b tablish with more certainty these halls which seemed
'likely te provide for erhication of the Roman Catholic

pupi;9.
Mr. SILL `X said th this que-,tion of the balls na-
tnrally led to the endowment of the Roman Catholic
Church in general, anal a he knew that if they endowed
one professor they must endow others, this proposition
was clearly in opposition to the Bill. He thought,
therefore, that the Noble Lord ought to be able to ex-
plain the grounds on which he thought this endowment
should be made.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that, as was shown by
'the ohgtrvations of the Hon. Moinhor for Waterford, it
lwas the proposal of the Government not to give re•
ligious education, but only a secular edncation for the
people of Ireland. Now, as the, clausi now stood, it W 4