Star.
London, England, 1808-04-13 00:00:00

than to send it back to Ireland to obtain new and re-
gular signatures.
Mr. PARNELL said, there could be no doubt
that the Petition was signed by the principal Catho-
lic Nobility and Clergy in Ireland. He thought
this quite a sufficient reason for its being brought up.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
deprecated the idea of his being thought hostile to',
the reception of the petition, though it did not ap-
pear to him that it could be received in its present
shape consistently with the forms of the House.—
Frem the great bulk of the Petition, it might be sup-
posed that considerable weight was attached to the
number of the subscribers, and therefore it was of
importance that these should be correctly and regu-
larly given. His chief objection to receiving the pe-
tition in its present shape was on the ground of pre-
cedent, and as tending to introduce a practice by
which false signatures might be imposed upon the
House, though he was far from wishing even to in-
sinuate that any thing of the kind had been practised
on the present occasion. He wished, however, to
defer on the point of form to the Speaker, and should
abide by his decision.
The SPEAKER gave it as his opinion, that it was
quite clear that no petition could be received by the
House, unless really subscribed by those persons
whose names were attached. It might be, however,
necessary for any Honourable Member who present-
ed such a petition, to consider whether the real sig-
natures could be detached from those of a different
description, Or those last might be cancelled altoge-
ther, though, for obvious reasons, he should prefer the
former of these two modes.
Mr. TIER/4EY spoke shortly for receiving the pe-
tition in its present form, on the ground that it might
be considered as a good petition, as far as it had a
number of real signatures attached to it. There
could not, besides, be the least doubt that it expres-
sed the opinions and wishes of the majority of the
people of Ireland.
Mr. M. FITZGERALD mid he understood that
there were at least 17,000 names attached to this Pe-
tition, and among these, some thousands of actual
signatures. The form might not be perfectly regu-
lar, but it seould be hard to refuse it on that account,
particularly since it might easily be conceived, that
into the most regular petition a name might be frau-
dulently and clandestinely introduced, and it would
be hard indeed if this should vitiate the whole of the
Petition. He deprecated the idea of sending back
the Petition to Ireland, where those who subscribed
it could not be supposed to be acquainted with the
forms of the House, and where the not receiving of
it might be construed into a disposition to refuse to
listen to their prayers. He hived therefore, that, for
the sake of tranquillity, the slight irregularity would
be overlooked. He understood that other Petitions
would soon be presented from Ireland for a similar
object, and alluded to one from the North of Ireland,
subscribed by at least 30,000 persons.
Sir R. PEELE thought that the forms of the House
should be adhered to. A Petition for Peace was
lately presented from Manchester, said to be subscri-
bed by 40,000 people, and be was informed that there
were not more than 1500 real names. He objected
to the precedent, therefore, as liable to produce mis-
chievous consequences.
Sir S. NEWPORT coniidereZ it far from be.-
fair or conciliatory, to insinuate that the present pets-
tion was of the kind which the Hon. Baronet had de-
scribed that from Manchester to be.
Mr. GRATTAN deprecated the inhospitable re-
ception which the petition seemed likely to meet with.
If the forms of the House were strictly adhered to,
no Member who presented a petition could vouch
for its perfect authenticity, if any doubts were started
on the subject. He submitted to the House that
they should not be too critical with regard to a peti-
tion of this sort.
After a few words from Mr. Wilberforce in support
of the forms of the House, and from the Speaker, who
again stated his opinion on the subject,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
expressed a strong wish that the Right Honourable
Gentleman would be prevailed upon to withdraw the
Petition for the present, otherwise he should be under
the painful necessity of voting against its reception.
It must be understood on all hands, that the matter
of the Petition could derive no weight from the num-
ber of the names attached to it ; and, supposing there
were only fifty signatures, it would equally deserve
HOUSE OF COMMONS. the grave and serious consideration of the House.—
Mr s Aklerman SHAW presented a Petition from the Debtors
He could wish, therefore, that the Petition were with-
thek IA the Fleet Prison, praying relict:—Ordered to he on
Table. • drawn for the present, and in 24, hours it might be
CATHOLIC PETITION. presented in a regular and authentic shape.
Mr. GRATTAN said, that he held in his hand a -Mr. YORKE suggested, that the Petition mighi
redder, signed by a very great body of Roman Ca- be received, and theta spectal entry might be made in
dishes in Ireland, praying for the removal of the dis- the Journals of the House, with a reservation of the
abilities under which they laboured, and that they formal rules of the House.
might be admitted to all the privileges of the British Mrs CANNING was anxious that some way should
Constitution. He would not at present enter into the be found out for removing the difficulty under which
merits of the prayer of their Petition, since that would the House laboured at present. This difficulty arose
be a subject for future consideration, but should con- from the precedent, for whatever indulgence might
tent himself with moving. that the Petition be now be shown in the present instance, might be expected,
received, He wished to give notice, however, at pre- and demanded in future. He was far from thinking
sent, that he should move for its being taken into con- that the importance of any Petition, or the dignity and
sideration on the 16th of May next. The Petition was number of those who subscribed it, should affect the
signed by a very peas number of persons, and many rules of the House, and be should feel more disposed
of them of high respectability • but it was necessary to relax those rules, when the Petition came from a
for him in fairness to acquaint the House, that a num. small and unimportant body, that it might be obvious
bet of signatures were affixed which were not written that the departure could only be ascribed to indulgence,
by the persons whose names they bore, but which had and to no other motive. The Right Honourable
been -written by others in consequence of authority to Gentleman could not suppose, that, by detaching any
that effect. of the names from the Petition, he also detached some
The question that the Petition be now brought up of its claims to the grave and serious consideration
being put— of the House. The Petition, though diminished in
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said bulk, could not be diminished in importance.
he would be glad to know from the Right Honours.. Mn. GRATTAN said, that as the great objeet of
ble Gentleman the proportion of those woo really sub. the Petition was to, promote the cordial unanimity of
scribed the Petition. the country, he should not press it upon the House in
Mr. GRATTAN replied, that he was not able to its present form, thus malting their unanimity, and
state the numbers with accuracy ; but he believed probably bringing upon the House the odium of re-
there might be some thousands. jesting it. He could not engage to present it again
The SPEAKER observed, that in point of form it till after the Recess, as it might be necessary for him
might be necessary that there should be some means to have communications with Ireland on the subject,
of discrimination between those who had duly signed there being very few of these who subscribed the Pe
the Petition, and those who had only authorized others tition at present in London.
to edd their names. After few words from Mr. Whitbread, Lord
Mr. GRATTAN confessed that he was unable to Castlereagh, and Mr. W, Smith, tbe motion for
point out the distinction ; and he had merely men- presenting the Petition was withdrawn.
tioned the circumstance to the House, to remove from Dole= OW THE coUNTRY.
himself the imputation of any unfairness, or want of Lord CASTLEREAGH began by observing, that
candour. But though the form -ale Petition, he he bed occasion last year to draw the etteation of the
was aware, was not perfectly regular, yet heitions,
thought *lease to the nature of . the lewterial IXesice of the
it better to present it to the House in its present shape Courstry. He had then statedtlie sentinsents gees

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.7

rally, both as to the best *ode of ke ss'n3 up the they should be drilled 28 days in the reighbourhocd
Regular Army and Militia, and also for supplying of their own homes. He concsived that men who
that subsidiary force which would be wanting to co• were disciplined in that manner might be usetally
operate with our snore regular description of force. , incorporated with the Regular Army in the eveet
Taking the military system of the country as ha found i of invasion ; whereas the men who, by the Train-
it, at the time of his coming into office, he'tbanghe ; iag Bill, were to be trained for one year by Con-
that what related to the subsidiary force was too corn.l stables and Parish Officers, would be of little or no use.
plicated for the Gentlemen of the country to be able ; As. to the Volunteers, he must .declare that, in his
easily to carry into execution. Without, howevqr,l opinion, and in the opinion of his Majesty's Mini
attempting at once to determine on every part of so : stets, as long as they could make it convenient lo
comprehensive a system, his Majesty's present Mi. - give their services with efiiciency, there was no cis -
nisters turned their*
earliest attention to that part of , scription of subsidiary ferce the -
the existing force which was of the greatest impor- couldplace greater reliance.
tance, the Regulars and the Militia. The results of any g off in their number,
their measures with respect to these two descriptions i that the deficiency should be s-
'of force had been so very successful, that the Legis.l of view he considered the
\
lature was relieved, for the present, from the necessity I Lida as extremely important.
of making any further provisions on those heads. The ' great variety of opinions as to
measures which were taken last year had added no force which it would be s
less than 40,000 men to our regular and militia force; existence; but when the
and both these descriptions of force might now be was considered, and Ihe
fairly left to the operation of the existing system, to country, he 'thought the ropertion p
the ordinary recruiting and the hallot.—He came his Right thend (Mr,
next to a subject of no less iinportance, namely, the the number of Militia, ,
sort of subsidiary force that would be necessary to order to haye this proportion. -
co-operate with the Regulars and Militia. Although force, there should be 3:30,000.V
he had the highest opinion of the Volunteers' 'and Britain, as there were 70,000 :
thought that the greatest dependence might be Placed number were complete, there could -
on their zeal and spirit, yet he did not know what that, co.operating with the 200,000 Regulars or Mi-
was their number er efficiency, until he had seen the lititt, reinforced by 50000 from the Local Militia,
late returns. The appointment of the Inspecting there would be sufficiese force to defend the country
Field Officers had given Government better means of against ;ay possiblesattaeless The actual number c f
judging of the efficiency of the Volunteer force, and theVoltuiteers reunited foraGreatitritain was 290,00(
their actual numbers. He must allow that no country as of that number 20000 had appeared wider
had ever re
a snore effectual service from the at the last inspection—the total defalcation of Volirr.
establishment of any description of force than this teere might be stated* between ao and 40,000 men.
country had derived from the Volunteers. There was As, however, the counties on the coast raised more
no kind of subsidiary force to which he would be more than their proportion of six times thenumber of Militia,
inclined to trust the fortune and fate of his country ; so the deficiency became more
.considerable in other
and the country was not only indebted tq them for places. He should theirefbee propose, that the Crown
coming forward• at a moment of danger, but for might be enabled to raise 00,000 local Militia, to be
their continued and unremitting exertions eversince ; Proportioned in every county •to the defalcation of the
for the Volunteer Force of the Country never stood Voltinteers, from the number which was first struck
higher in numbers or efficiency than at the present out, of six times the amount cf the Militia. He should
moment. It must be recollected, however, that when now proceed to give an outline of his idea of a local
peace should arrive (and it was necessary, in the pre- Militia. He thought that it was right to' depart as
sent situation of the world, to be prepared in peace as little.as possible from the usages ands blished habits
well as in war) then perhaps those exertions might of the country. The Militia systwas now en.
somewhat relax. It was somewhat dangerous to trust grafted in the habits of the counter, and he wished
y zeal.. This would to assimilate this subsidiary force to the principles of
entirely to the effect of voinntne
be like looking merely to the
systemi of-she moment, the Militia. The great difference would be this—
without constructing our military ys on splisso.a during war, the Militia regiments have the same duties
neat and stable principles, which would be equally atrithsthe Regulars as to the defence of the cou=y, - ;
applicable to a state of peace or war. In fact, it was whereas he 4sould wish to assimilate the local 11We tia
during the continuance of war, that the military sys. to the condition of the regular Militia in time of
tern of the country should be so organized, as to gua- peace ; and unless in the case of actual invasion, they
rantee our security in a state of peace as well as of war. were not to quit their counties: He should nest con.
In a peace, those military discussions which were now Sider what class of people were to compose this Mi.
allowed to be necessary, might be considered as irri- litia. He considered that the service proposed was so
sating to those with whom we were at peace, and as light thet no one could complain of it as a burden.
indicating an hostile disposition. It was, however, He was convinced, that if it had been proposed to the
so necessary that we should consult for our safety in Volunteers in the first instance to give some serious
peace, that when we looked at the actual situation of pledge to their country of their iuteation to give their
Europe, we would perceive that the only chance we services fora certain time, and to go' out on pertna-
could have of meeting the enemy upon fair ground, neat duty once in the year, mast of the Volunteer
even in a negotiation for peaie would be to have a aorps would have agreed to it. This would have
military sytem so well organized, as to convince him been no burdensome duty, especially when it was re-
that lie could not hope to be able to do us any serious collected that they came forward in defence of their
injury, either in peace or in war. Under these car- country, and of every thing which was dear to them.
curnstances, heithought it became the duty of Par. He, therefore, could not consider the sort of service
liament to lay down settle • permanent foundations which would be assigned to this local Militia as lay
for the defence and security of the country. ; to hardship. On that account he did not think the same
adopt such fixed and stelae principles for our mi. relaxations of this system should be allowed as what
litary system, as would not leave the country trust. took place in the regular Militia. In the first place, he
ing to the mere chance of voluntary zeal in the hour did not think k necessary in this local Militia to allow
of- danger. He thought it was time that ants the privilege of serving by substitute. This was neces-
blished system should now be introduced, so tha the sary in the common Militia, as the person serving was
security of the country should never be compromised. generally obliged to give up his former occupetion or
By the military system, as his Majesty's present Mi. employment , but it was not necessary in the local
nisters found it at their coming into office there bad Militia; where every man would be trained almost at
been an Act passed for training the of
fice,
popula- his own door, and would be an permanent duty only
tion of the country to arms, by training 200,000 each in his own county, and for a limited term. If substis
year. This Act, however, was not mandatory, but tutes were allowed in this local militia it would go di.
merely an enabling statute to allow the Executive to reedy to impose a heavy tax : men would magnify
call out such a portion of the population, if it should the importance of the duties of the service, and would'
judge it adviseable. Although the Bill had been give large sums to substitutes. Instead of allowing a
passed for some time, there had been vfry little done substitution, he should propose as a relaxation! that
in order to carry it into execution. His Majesty's fines should be imposed upon persons that could not,
present Ministers did not conceive it necessary to ad- attend, and that those fines should be so serious, as tie
vise his Majesty to call out so large an additional sub- prevent any person from absentinghiniself that was not
sidiary, force as 200,000 men in the present year.— prevented by very serious business. He Should propose
They, however, hoped to be able to point out a way to make it penal for any parish to offer, ounties for sub-
which would render what were raised more efficacious sutures, or for any individual to offer himself for a
than those men would be, raised and drilled by the pa- bounty. It would be also necessary to prevent insuring.
rish officers and constables under the provisions of the —As to the probability of getting the men, he should
Training Act. That Bill they thought was much top not think it difficult, when the easy nature of the ser.
complicated in its nature, and he did not conceive; vice was' considered. He should, however, propose
that it would be by any means so efficacious as the 1 some small bounty, not exceeding two or three guineas,
Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Windham) who j to the person who enlisted into the service for four years.
proposed it, seemed .to imagine. By the time you iln this service, he thought men should not be taken, as
had balloted for your man, found him, and brought ; much advanced in life as it was customary to ballot
him to the place of training, a great part of the year -. for them in the regular militia. Instead of from 1$ to
would have elapsed, and he would be entitled to his 45,he thought it would begoing far enough to say from
discharge at the end of the year, when it was pos 15 to 95. It was well known, that when a man was
sible for him to have learnt enough of military disci- , somewhat advanced in life, he could not learn military
pline to be of any use. Whatever some Gentlemen i manoeuvres with equal facility. It would be next to
might think of an armed peasantry, he never thought ;be considered, how these men were to be officered. He
Much use 'could be made of them, unless before the I did not see any. reason to telex from the qualification
enemy should arrive, there were regiments enough , required by law in other Officers of Militia, as he was
for them to join, whether Regulars, Militia, oe 1, convinced that many of the resident proprietors would
Volunteers. A number of men tolerably acquainted ibe glad t. become Officers in such a service as this,
with the use of arms, and thrown into existing regt. ' when there would be no occasion
,for them to leave
merits, would be of much greater use than a greater their county. He would wish,however, that any
number of unregimented persons, with the very loose person who had been a Field Officer in the Army,
and irregular training proposed in that Bill. He land afterwards retired, might be-a Field Officer also
conceived the greatobject for training the people would t this Local Militia, whether he had the quelification
be to fill up the vacancies in the Regular and Militia in point of property or not. This force, however
regiments immediately on the landing of an enemy. I should not be permitted to be an obstacle either to the
Our Regular and Militia Force now amounted to I ordinary recruiting of the Army, or to the Militia :
200,000 men rank and file ; and if each company was I and therefore be should propose that persons should
raised to 100 men, we might have 250,000 in our ,be permitted to volunteer from it either to the Rt.
regimented force, which, with the addition of the Vo- gulars or the Militia, except at the periods of the year
hmteers, amounting to near 400,000, must be rec. when the Local Militia should be on permanent duty,
koned sufficient to defend the country against any ,He had a great ho many pe that of the Volunteer corps
force which the enemy could accumulate against us. wou be willing to transfer their services, and to be.
He did not pledge the Government to ballot for the come local Militia. There would be this advantage
men who were to fill up the ranks of the army in case attending such a change, that there would no longer
Of invasion, as he thought it was the duty of Govern- be any occasion for a stock purse ; but the expences
molt not to afflict the country with unnecessary bal. of the establishment would be borne by the public.
Inert • He was conviriceel• that if a subsidiary force This would be a great advantage to many of the
was raised, in the nature of a local Militia, they might corps, who commenced on a very, extravagant scale.
be soon put in that state pf discipline as to be an ae-1 which Would be done away completely by entering
quisition, instead of incumbrance to do regiments of into the local Militia. According to hie. calculation,
Regulars or Militia. He should wish that the Crown this local Militia would not cost our.* than the Vo,
should be enabled to embody this local *Via*" 21 Itutteers, or. as much as the trained mei. If sisai
days in lie Ye% within tbair ali4 efinottp 04 *2 we " 2119514 mak, a milliar roTtat9a tat keep up.
,
• .
. . ,
, •
.., , . '
.

Force la which the country
knee; but if there should Le
umber, it became necessary
I be supplied, and b‘ that point
"li\\
establishment of a ()cal Mi-
ant. There was nec rily a
ksto the quantumof s 'diary
necessary to have al sin
..t whole amount of our rce
ke great demands upon ($
ie propurtion first adopted
I (Mr. Yorke) of six time
it a, was. fully sufficient. In
poraon.froin the Volunteer
30,000. Volunteers for Great
'O,OOO far Ireland—and if this
there coed be no doubt but