The Sun.
London, England, 1827-02-14 00:00:00

THE CORN LAWS.

Mr. HUME presented a petition from the mer-
chants, manufacturers, and traders of Dundee, praying for a tevi-
sion of the Corn Laws, and for free trade generally.
WOOTTON BASSETT ELECTION.

Mr. S. RiCh_rose., in_the absence of his Hon. and
Learned Friend (Mr. Scarlett) to move, pursuant to notice, that
the Order for considering- the Wootton- Bassett petition be dis-
charged.
The SPEAKER wished, before the Motion was
submitted, to state, that he had that morning received a letter,
signed John Bailey, stating, that in 'conseqUence of the objections
that had been made to the service of his notices upon the Sitting
Members, he did not intend any further to press the subject upon
the attention of the House ; and that' he, therefore, should not
object to the discharge of the Order for considering his petition.
Mr. S. RICE, after complaininU at some length,
of the irregular conduct of the petitioner, with regard to the ser-
vice of the notices, moved, according to notice, that the Order be
discharged for considering the petition.
The SPEAKER suggested that the wording of
the motion should be changed,- so that it might appear that the
reason for discharging the Order was, that the recognizances had
had not been duly entered into, in consequence of the notices not
having been regularly_ served.
The motion so amended was agreed to.
BRIBERY .AT .ELECTIONS.

Lord ALTHORP postponed his motion for a
Select Committee on cases of Bribery and Corruption at Elec-
tions, to Friday the 23d-of February, with the understanding that
the Resolution,- and the instruction to the Committee, which he
Meant to move, should be printed immediately for the purpose of
facilitating the discussion.
'WATERFORD ELECTION.
Upon the Order of the Day for taking into consideration the
Petition against the Election for the County of Waterford being

read, y
Mr. CROKER, a‘f compraintrig of the state of
the Law with respect to entering into recognizances upon Peti-
tions from Ireland in general, moved, that the time for entering
into recognizances upon that Petition, be extended.
After a few words from the SOLICITOR-GENERAL in ex-
planation and defence of the law,
Mr. SPRING RICE said, the proceedings from
beginning to end had been irregular, and the order must be dis-
charged.
The order for taking the Petition into consideration was then
discharged accordingly.
CAVAN ELECTION.
The petition of Mr. R. Henry Southwell against-the Cavan
County Election, was in a similar manner discharged, is conse-
quence of irregularities in putting in the recognizances.
LIMERICK COUNTY ELECTION.
The petition against the Election for the County of Limerick
was then taken into consideration, and the time for putting in the
recognizances enlarged t I.ursday ee'nnight.
Sir EDWARD TCHBULL moved that the
petitioner complaining °Gaul &indite return for the Borough of
Down, had acted confornsahly.with the construction of the Statute,
as to the time of entering the requisite recognizances.
.Mr. BERNAL opposed the motion, principally on
the ground that the names of the sureties were not communicated
in proper time to the Member, whose return was complained of
by the petitioners.
After a short discussion, in which Mr. Wrsrs and the AT-
TORNEY-GENERAL took a part, in support of the petition, the
House divided :
Ayes 28—Noes I9—Majority in the affirmative 9.
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.
Sir G. CLERK brought up the Report of the
Committee of Supply on the Navy Estimates.
On the reading of the Resolutions,
Sir J. NEWPORT was desirous of availing him-
self of this opportunity to add his protest to that of other Hon.
Members, against Impressment in the Navy, It was a practice,
in his opinion, which, so far from contributing to the strength,
was the real weakness of that important branch of onr national
defence. He would rejoice to see some salutary mode of in-
ducing men to enter into our Navy, besides this odious and abo-
minable one of forcing them into it. So long as it was continued,
it would deprive our navy of respectable and efficient seamen.
We had experience of its inconvenience and mischief in our men
being induced to enter into the navies of other nations., We might
have borrowed a useful lesson on this subject from the navy of
America, into which many of our men, on account of the preva-
lence of this system, preferred to enter. He cared not so much
for what expence might be incurred by the substitution of another
mode of recruiting our naval forces. An alteration in the mis-
chievous one he now condemned, would be almost worth any
price. In the early part of his public life he had protested
against the impressment of seamen, and now that in the course of
nature, he was nearly arrived at the close of his public career, he
was anxious strongly to renew and repeat his testimony against
it.—(Loud cries of hear, hear.)
Mr. WARBURTON expressed his conviction,
that if it were put to the merchants and shipowners whether they
would consent by supporting a greater number of seamen during
peace, or by any operation-of taxation to avoid the evil of having
their seamen impressed in time of war, they would cheerfully
agree to a proposition by which an end might be put to so abomi-
nable a practice.
Sir G. CLERK observed, that the arguments of the
Honourable Member for Waterford would be very applicable if im-
pressment were the general mode of supplying the Navy with
othfemm en. en
time,
of wa
men. But it was only on emergencies that this unpleasant prac-
tice was resorted to. Re denied that the Navy was an unpopular
t service. Whenever men of war, and Indiamen were fitting out
a their the
complement same
wereealways the
was fil.st to
In peace eae impressment never
ebthaaind
recourse to ; for the supply was always adequate to the necessity.
Nor was it
requisite
in war to make good the ordinary casualties.
But causes might arise where it was absolutely necessary even for
the protection of commerce itself suddenly to fit out a large
squadron ; the object of which would be lost if it were necessary
to wait for its being manned by volunteers. He hoped, however,
from the great improvement which had taken place in the treat-
ment and condition of our seamen, and from the great liberality
with which the country had granted pensions, &c. that there
would be less occasion for using the power of impressment in any
future war. But it would be unwise and impolitic rashly to put
an end to a power, on the exercise of which, under particular cir-
cumstances, the very salvation of the country might depend.
Mr. LOMBE remarked, that the present system of
punishment which existed in the Navy, was the cause of great
dissatisfaction among the seamen. What was the cause of remo-
ving the British packets from New York, but the constant de-
sertions of the seamen, whenever they could find an opportunity
of effecting their purpose? If such was the case in those packets,
in which the term of service was limited for three years, what
must it be in other instances?
Sir G. CLERK replied, that the greater number
of the packets to which the Hon. Member alluded were hired
vessels, the crews of which were not under military law. The
removal had taken place in consequence of the inconvenience sus-
tained by the masters from the great length of time which the

vessels were kept at iiTew York. Their men had not deserted
into the American navy ; but had been induced by high wages—
a dollar a day—to work at unloading the ships in the harbour.
Mr. LOMBE explained.
Mr. HUME wished to state the result of all the
inquiries which he had made on the subject. It was generally
admitted that the service ti the Navy was less laborious, and that
the men had less labour, bettet food, better regulations, and more
advegeti than in the merchant-service. He had put the mat-
ter point by p'oin't to those who were familiar with the facts.
—They stated that it sVao not, the inferiority of the wages to the
wages in the merchant service of which the seamen in the navy
complained, for that was compensated to them by pensions.—
Thousands of seamen had been examined On the subject, and
they one and all declared that their aversion to the service of the
nary eiese from the discipline to which those who were engaged
in it were Object. That such discipline was unnecessary had
been proved in dation@ eases. In the Bulwark of 74 guns,
therC had not been a single corporal punishment in the course
oi eighteen Months. The seamen were dissatisfied that a Com-
mander had it in hie power to order the infliction of a summary
punishment which degraded the individual for ever, and that
there was no redress. To impressment they did not object
on an emergency. But they oblected to being torn from their
families by impressment, and then kept in the service for life.—
Whenever the urgency of the public service required that a fleet
should be expeditiously manner; the seamen had no objection
*hatever to take their turn; but tii;:y wished for the establish-
ment of some regulation to prevent their'
being detained after
the eniergenCy had ceased to exist. One great abjection to im-
pressment was the expellee Which it occasioned in tee tiers' 8"a r
for the moment a sailor ryas o.essed, he became a prisoner,
a guard, and was divested of all the rights of an P:nglishman.—
He was satisfied that the number of desertions which took place
in the course of the late war in consequence of the dissatisfaction
of the seamen almost counterbalanced the apparent advantages of
impressment ; except on one or two great emergencies. In be-
half of the seamen of England, he protested against their being
exposed to a degrading punishment. While British tars were
held up as entitled to glory, let them not be treated in a manner
so disgraceful. He intreated those who had the power to intro-
duce an amelioration of the system to' consider whether it would
not be much better to hate the fleet manned by volunteers,•by
men attached to the service, who might be allowed to go on
shore without being guarded by officers from fear of their deserld
-
tion. The system of punishment ought to be regulated ;
he world
not say abolished, because there were cases in which it was perhaps
indispensible. - But the objection was to the arbitrary manner in
which the punishment was sometimes carried into effect at the
pleasure of an individual who had scarcely arrived at the years of
discretion. Many officers were in the command of hundreds
of men, whose, experience had not taught them the forbearance
and self rule necessary in stick a station. In fact, an officer on
shore, and the same officer on board ship were frequently two as
different men as it was possible to conceive. When on shore an
officer knew that be must govern himself by the rules of society;
but when on board, being free from all controul, he too often
conducted himself in the most arbitrary and tyrannical manner.—
r would always be abused.
Man in every situation, and under circumstances, required con-
troul. Unlimited and irresponsible pow :e
—When boys who were bred up to the st:.a were daily witnesses
e despotic
of a system of arbitrary authority on the one band, and of passive
obedience on the other, it was not wonderful t:2at when they
themselves became Commanders they should assure.,
power. It was by no means, however, his wish to throw any
general censure on the officers of the navy : all he maintal.u.:4
was, that the natural disposition of man to tyrannize over hie fel-
low creatures ought to be as much counteracted as possible. If
the Admiralty took steps to_ effect so desirable an object, they
would never want seamen to man our ships.—Comparatively
speaking, few able seamen were necessary in a vessel. If, of
100,000 men, 30,000 were able seamen, the ablest officers who
had written on nautical subjects agreed that the proportion would
be sufficient.
Sir BYAM MARTIN utterly denied that the
Naval Service was unpopular. As a proof of it, the last ship
that was put in commission, the Asia, of 80 guns, in three weeks
obtained 370 volunteers, and in five weeks completed her com-
plement. An Hon. Member had observed, that the packets had
been withdrawn from New York, because the apprehension of
punishment induced the men to desert. Now the fact was, that
in the whole of the packet service of last year, there had been
only three punishments.
Mr. HUME explained.
Sir B. MARTIN explained ; and repeated that it
was quite untrue that the Naval Service was unpopular.
Sir J. NEWPORT : " That, then, is an addi-
tional argument against the necessity of impressment."—(Hear,
hear, hear.)
Sir C. FORBES, in proof of the popularity of the
Naval service, stated, that such was the run of volunteers in India
from Indiamen to men of war, that the Admiralty, in order to
prevent the Indiamen from losing the whole of their crews, were
obliged to send orders to limit the number received. He was the
last man in the world to stand up for unnecessary punishment,
either on shore or at sea. He also admitted that he had known
some instances of excessive punishment on board of ship, which
he would not now particularize, because, happily, there was an
end to all such tyrannical proceedings. It was due to Lord
Exmouth to say, that he had introduced regulations on this sub-
ject on the East India station, which had since been adopted in
the whole navy. It was now no uncommon thing for a man of
war to make a long voyage without the occurrence of a single pu-
nishment. Had such a circumstance ever taken place on board an
Indiaman? If punishments were complained of on board men of
war, bow much more objectionable must they be on board mer-
chant ships. But in some cases they were absolutely necessary.—
If the punishments on board men-of-war and the punishments on
board merchant-ships were compared, the latter would be found to
e desirable
impressment,
get
rid of. was
He a
certainly practice
be the more excessive. The condition and treatment of the sailor
on board of a King's ship had of late years been considerably im-
proved ; and his Majesty's service was now looked to by seamen as
With
hbterdesly dceept
thought that by a system of judicious bounties the necessity for it
might be diminished, if not altogether removed. I
emergency, let double bounties he given. If seamen werencases of
to be
got, Mthey oney would bring them ; if were not to be got, impress-
mwhosicthdesiitrab,lve;a u
impress-
ment would not obtain them. He
was persuaded that the coun-
try would not be dissatisfied with any additional expence to put an
end to a system so generally denounced.
A MEMBER, whose name we could not learn,
suggested the expediency of limiting
war, even if it were found
the power of inflicting cor-
poral punishment on board of men
of
impracticable to abolish it entirely. He especially alluded to the
power at present possessed by the • tommander of a vessel of how-
ever small a class, when on a foreign at tion, of inflicting corporal
punishment, without being under any controul either on the part
of the Admiralty or of any flameu_cer.
Mr. Alderman WOOD strongly
urged the neces-
sity of intro lmeing some regulations respecting impressment, and
adverted to various regulations on the subject which had been
adopted by the Corporation of the City of London.
Sir E. OWEN contended that no man was
punished in the Navy who did not deserve it ; and the sailors
were very seldom put in irons, and only when their misconduct
was of the grossest kind. The fact was, that the exception was
taken for the rule, and because punishments of the sort com-
plained of were now and then inflicted, it was given out that such
was the constant practice. Punishments were awarded, in gene-
ral, not for offences against the officers, nor against the ser-
vice, but for offences against each other. As to the supposed
degradation of the men, he could say, that perhaps in nine cases
out of ten the sufferers afterwards admitted that they deserved
all they had received. Whenever a man was brought up to
the gangway, his pl•evious character was always taken into
consideration, and if good, he was sure to have the benefit of
it. The Captain, in ninety-nine cases out of a hundred, was
the most impartial and competent judge that could be found ;
he was perfectly dispassionate, and much more likely to be
too lenient than too severe. The sentences by Courts Mar-
tial were usually more heavy than the amount of punish-
ment actually undergone by the criminal ; the Commanders often
found it necessary to mitigate it, and the greatest boon that could
be conferred upon the Captains of King's ships, was to give them
by law, the power to show clemency in cases where they thought
it merited. Much had been said touching impressment ; but he
(Sir E. Owen) was convinced that no pecuniary reward would
be found an adequate substitute in a case of emergency, and for
this reason he hoped the law would be continued as it now stood.
He was satisfied that the assertion that British seamen preferred
the service of the United States, was a libel upon the service ; it
was not the fact that men had deserted to any thing like the ex-
tent contended for by the authors of some works he had read.
Some British seamen had indeed been found on board an Ameri-
can man of tsar, but in general, men deserted, not in order to
serve the United States, but for the sake of being able afterwards
to find their way-home to England. Sailors had not, by any
means, the hatred of the impress which was attributed to them ;
that caeca of hardship and cruelty had occurred, was undeniable,
but he knew, within his own experience, of instances in which
the men who had been impressed, had declared on reaching the
quarter-deck, " You have us, Captain, and as you have us we
will enter." Such sailors were to be looked upon more in the

light of volunteers tiVra men serving by col npulsi 6n, and anxious
to avail themselves of ttie first opportunity to eseal
Mr. FYLER, in a low tone of voice, referred to
the opinion of Madame de S.:•ael, and maintained that impress-
ment was contrary to the free spirit of the Constitt. ttion, and an
opprobrium upon the British nation.
The Resolution was then agreed to.
at the last Vote in the Estimates,
Mr. HUMS rose, merely for the liats:dtvol'hiptlei.uelsto,ehteattotcheoeti;ii,snte:ehnyre:
his protest against this mode of voting away viac mill ions of the
public money for one branch of the service
without any accounts to enable the House to
revenue would be able to meet such an expenditt lit was con-
trary to the dirty of the,Representatives of the
to a course so precipitate. The weight of taxati, us at the pr esent
moment, depressed the nation below every other in the w orld ;
other States were caving money and paying off the it debts, while
in England, the only. question seemed how to spew it, eve n be-
fore it was known that tve had it to spend.
A MEMBER under the Gallery was tmdeirstood
to object particularly to heavy charges for Sierra Len! ae, and
other worse than worthless coionies.
Their A
ReportGRANT
.
agreed ta
Sir brought p
the RClort. ..on the
Postage Duties Acts, which was agreed to.
MISCELLANEOUS EST-I:MATES%
Mr. HERRIES brought up the Miscellgneolm,
Estimates, and they were ordered to be prin. ted.

When the t clerk arrivqrt

. .
EXPENCES OF THE COLOI `LIES.
Mr. HUME wished to put a
questi, In to the Un-
der Secretary for the Colonial Department. 1 /nring the last
th.ree or four years, he (Mr. Hume) had moved tt.':l"
varion 3 ac-
in order to make file office of the Hon. Gentle nun as effi
cient its -
rooib!e, and he wished them to be annually ' laid upon
the Table. 7`2 eY related to the heavy charge made upon this
ec„.otry for her Colonies ; and what he wished now to know
cement had yet been made to fin "nigh the
counts,
was, whether any mat;
House with ageneral estitnis.!
e which would give some idea of
the enormous e nce of our Fo;"..`'ig
n Military, Naval, an.iteic,?re
Civil
g
mere details given
before
the Establishments ? He did not allude to ,!lle
the Estimates were voted, but an enlarged and cemprebe. naive
view, which would enable any man to form a judgment whe tier
it was worth while to keep all our Colonies at isa enormous , t
sacrifice. • .

Mr. W. HORTON replied, that papers were-
already upon the table from which the Hon. Gentleman would be
able to collect the information be desired. They had been an-
nually presented, and might be again obtained this year, although
he was not prepared to say that such was the best mode of com-
municating knowledge upon the subject. Desultory conversa-
tions like these upon such subjects, led to no advantageous result,
and he thought that the time taken for putting the question, not
well chosen.
Mr. HUME thought that 'no better moment could
be pointed out than when other departments were laying esti-
mates upon the table; and those regarding the Colonies had not
yet been presented. Had they been beiore the House, it
might
dared, that from the papers to which 1‘ .embers had already
promise the
have been fairly urged that he came too ,lagtee.ss.
("eFhoer
doesnei,relc:c. de-
access, be was not able to obtain the intelli
Hen. Gentleman what he wished. Estimates of .
Mr. W. HORTON could by no meails
military expences of the colonies would not be kid .
distinct from the estimates for the Navy and Army of th..'
the naval and
..),n the table
EK-Tire. The Hon. Gentleman might, if be pleased,United
molts ft, x.,:pired would be useless to him, and unnecessary for ,`he
call
,for an
twanmt of the average contingent expenditure ; but the 6.0"-
se in a more perfect and complete shape, so as to
to6seeelf::'hat .vas the civil expence of every colony, hide-
country at larg. • He hoped that this year the estimates would Iv,'
the army and navy.
PROMOTIONS IWITE ARMY AND MARINES.
enableopet rdeedn ittto of the charge far'
Mr. HUME gave notfee that to-morrow he would.
move for returns of the promotblis in the Army and Marines,
similar to those moved for last year.
On the question that the House adjouri.`,,
Mr. HUME begged to ask whether the Hon.
Gentleman was prepared to state at what period the: Report of the
Commission sent out to Sierra Leone would be lai,`l upon the
table.
Mr. HORTON answered, that the Commission,
was now in England, and he expected that the Report would be,
upon the table before Easter.
Adjourned at a Quarter past Ten.