The Sun.
London, England, 1845-06-21 00:00:00

}1~.....

N, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING .TUNE 21, 1815.

I had been laid down for the management of the private
business of the House, and by taking great care how
they interfered with the decision of any Committee
they might appoint for the purposes of investigation.
This %cal not a question of broad and narrow gauges, as it was
stated to be by the Hon. Member for Stockport. The ques-
tion before the House was, whether they should stop the
further progress of the Bill ? And there was no
pretence for their doing so. They had heard from
the Right Hon. and Learned Member, the Chairman of the
Committee, that it was not a question of gauges but a
question of line.—(Cheers.) It was utterly impossible that
the House could form any opinion on the subject. They had
not the power of investigating the subject as the Committee
had, and they certainly ought to repose some confidence in
the Members who composed it. With regard to the argument
that the Committee had decided contrary to the report of the
Board of Trade, he did not see that they should pay a slavish
respect to those reports. He well knew that when he was
appointed a member upon a Railway Committee, that Com-
mittee had given the most marked attention to those reports,
but he did say, that when a Committee had investigated the
subject brought before them, and when they had considered'
the report of the Board of Trade, surely it was no ground for
" distrustine the decision of that Committee—a decision come
to after full consideration—that they were opposed to the
opinion of the Board of Trade.—( Hear.) On these grounds
it was his intention to support the further progress of the Bill ;
but, after hearing the speech of the Right Hon. Chairman of
that Committee, he (Mr. Labouchere) was not prepared to
deny that some special circumstances connected with this Bill
required special consideration. He would also admit that they
had asserted a principle which he believed to be perfectly new
in railway legislation, namely, that the line was to be con-
stricted on both principles—both the broad and the narrow
gauge. He could not himself give an opinion on the subject ;
but it was asserted by the Board of Trade that this course was
likely to be attended with public danger. But that was no
reason why they should stop this Bill, for this error it would
be an easy matter to remedy. They might introduce a claude
in the Bill on the third reading to oblige the Company to lay
down eit'.er the broad or the narrow gauge. He hoped
that before the conclusion of the debate some 'Mem-
ber of the Government would inform the House whether
they were prepared themselves to look into this question, and
to make some report to the House on the subject, or whether
they would consider a Committee the preferable mode of mak-
ing the inquiry. He certainly thought that the question '
should be fully investigated by the House and the Govern-
ment. He should be exceedingly sorry that the House should
insist on an alteration in the decision of the Committee. If
they should attempt to alter the decision of the Committee,
they would at once throw a slight on the whole of their pro •
ceedings, and by a declaration that their decision was other-
wise than impartial and judicious, in dealing with the large
pecuniary interests on which they had to adjudicate, be-
cause they were in opposition to the decisions of the Beard of
Trade, they would be unsettling the confidence of the whole
country in the most important decisions. It would be be-
lieved that this could only be done by the aid of pecuniary in-
terests in that House. and through a system of canvass and
solicitation, and would only lead to a state of confusion, and
occasion injury to the whole community.
Mr. BERNAL was inclined to give all the respect which
was due to the decision both of the Board of Trade and the
Committee, but still he could not help saying that all the
speeches were on one side, and he felt in the situation of being
compelled to call upon the Right Hon. Boronet to state his
opinion. The Right Hon. Baronet was in possession of great
mental and physical power.—( A laugh.) He was serious ; for
it was well known that the Right Hon. Baronet possessed a
power which it was almost impossible to oppose; and he called
upon him not to give the weight of his influence against the Bill,
on account of its being opposed to the Report of the Board of
Trade. He must take it that the principle of this Committee
had been an impartial one, that it was a serious and intelligent
tribunal. Nothing could be said against the ability, attention,
and integrity of the five Members of which it had been
composed ; and when he heard of the mistake of one
of the Honourable Gentlemen who had spoken, he
was glad to learn that the decision at which the
Committee had arrived was the unanimous approval of the
preamble. But the question was not respecting the line on
which the Bill was opposed. The ground of opposition was
the difference between the broad and narrow gauge. It was
proposed to adopt the broad gauge from Oxford to Rugby, and
from Oxford to Worcester, and it. was to be considered whether
the broad or the narrow gauge. should be adopted on all sub-
sequent lines. He did not, therefore, see any sufficient neces-
sity for disturbing the decision of the Committee and opposing
the progress of the Bill. He believed that even yesterday in
the .City there was the wildest speculation going on as to the
question of the broad and narrow gauge.—( Here the Hon.
Member became almost inaudible, amidst loud cries of
" Divide, divide.") He was understood to say that, Mr.
Walker, the engineer, when examined, stated that though it
would be for his own interest to recommend the narrow gauge,
yet for the benefit of the public lie would recommend that the
narrow gauge should be uprooted throughout the kingdom, and
one broad gange adopted. There might be some doubt as to
the extent of the broad and narrow gauge, and when he tweed
it asserted that the narrow gauge was uniformly adopted
throughout the Continent, he thought there was a doubt as
to the exact width. He believed that they would find it five
feet in some places, and six feet in others. The length of
junction was in favour of the arguments produced on the
London and Birmingham line. It had been already stated that
the Board of Trade had not an opportunity of considering how
to remedy the evils of transferring passengers on the narrow
aid broad gauge.—(Loud cries of " Divide, divide.")
'He would call upon the House most earnestly, and more par-
ticularly on the Right Hon. Baronet opposite, to confirm the
decision of the Committee. The Committee had been ap-
pointed a properly constituted judicial authority, and he re-
quested the House to support them in the position they had
assumed as arbiters of the most beneficial mode of laying down
rails on railway lines.
Sir G. GREY said there were some particular circumstances
affecting this question which he thought made it a proper question
to bring before the House, and he expressed a hope that the Go-
vernment would see fit to express their opinion on the subject
before any division was come to. When the question
came before the Committee on the Bill, there was a
peculiar circumstance which arose between them and the
Commissioners of the Board of Trade. One of the differences
between the Committee and the Board of Trade was a ques-
tion of competition. It had been stated that the London and
Birmingham line was an integral independent railway, and it
was asked that another competing independent line should
be established by means of the Great Western Company.
His opinion was in favour of it, but he really thought it would
he desirable to have some expression of the ideas of Govern-
ment. The Right Hen Gentleman had stated at length, the
circumstances connected with the whole proceedings of the
Committee, how it was proposed to lay down four lines of rail-
way without making a new railway. He would read a few
passages in support of that idea. The House was called upon
to forbid the construction of a line of railway which had been
adopted be the Committee contrary to the expressed report of
the Board of Trade, which could not be adopted without
occasioning great inconvenience both to passengers and traffic.
They stated that laying down a double line of railway would in
many cases be disadvantageous. The difficulty of maintaining
the permanent way with a double set of rails would be very
great ; the difficulty was so great as to prevent experiments
being tried to any extent. He ( Sir George Grey) thought
that the House was not justified in stopping the progress of this
Bill, even though the Board of Trade, after the evidence which
had been adduced before the Committee, should be still of the
same opinion as that which appeared in their report. He
thought it would he well for the Government to appoint a com-
mission to inquire into this subject ; but he did not think that
the House would be justified in postponing this Bill.
Sir G. CLERK said that after the appeal which had been
made to him by the Right Hon. Gentleman it was impossible
for him to allow that debate to close without saying a few words
on the subject. He perfectly concurred with the Right Hun,
Gentleman as to the importance of supporting Committees of
that House. Ile believed that no tribunals had bestowed
greater attention in the discharge of most arduous duties
than had the Railway Committees of that House.
This was a question of very great importance. They were
not called upon now to decide, for the first time, as to which
was the best width of gauge. That question had already been
decided. He was of opinion that the laying down of another
kind of gauge would not be of that advantage which was be-
lieved, and that the loss would more than counterbalance
the gain. Yet, the Committee in passing the preamble
of the Bill, gave a decision in favour of a particular
company, and practically decided the question. The
London and Birmingham railway ran through one
of the most important districts in the kingdom, and was of
considerable length. Great traffic might be expected on any
branch lines connecting the contiguous districts, which
abounded in minerals, with the main line, so that the question
was one of great importance to that line. It was on that
ground that the Board of Trade, looking at the traffic which
might be expected on that railway—that three-fourths of the
traffic would come from the north, and either terminate
at Bristol, or before it reached it, and that a very small pro-
portion would come from the south, arrived at their decision.
With regard to the transfer of the goods from one line to an-
other being of great inconvenience, he did not think that ob-
jection had been sustained. But he was ready to admit that
the change from one line to the other should take place at a
place where it would be attended with the least possible de-
lay.—( Hear, hear.) However, all the traffic of which the
Hon. Member had spoken as passing south of Birmingham,
about nine-tenths of it terminated at Bristol—(Hear, hear)__
and no inconvenience whatever could, therefore, be felt from
the fact of a change of the gauges there, for there was very
little through traffic there.—( Hear, hear.) It had been said
that this subject had not been before the Board of Trade.
Now, he begged to assure the House that no subject hail come
before the Board of Trade which had occupied so much of their
time and attention as this very question.—( Hear, hear, )
The difficulty of mechanical contrivance might be got rid of
by adopting the report of the Committee, but the waste of
time and expense never could. The Board of Trade thought
the transhipment of goods, as it was called, was attended with
great expense and labour—the proposition of a double line of
rails emanate] voluntarily from the Committee. The opinion
of the Board of Trade was, that danger and inconvenience
would result from the proposed combination—that opinion re-
mained unchanged, particularly as regarded the line of com-
munication between Woburn and Worcester. It was perfectly
impossible that trains passing along at various rates of speed,
some on a narrow and some on a wide gauge, could long con-
' tinue to run without some fatal accident occurring. The Com-
mittee did not expressly recommend either system. Notwith-
standing the disposition of the House, he must say its natural
disposition, he still thought the decision of the Board of
Trade the right one, and he should support it. If the House
confirmed the opinion of the Committee they would be es-
tablishing the principle that the broad gauge ought to be ex-
tended throughout the country.
Sir THOMAS WILDE had no personal interest in the
question, except so far as it related to his constituents.
He must confess that it was an unfair thing that these matters
should he referred to the Board of Trade, where the investiga-
tions were carried out in private—(Cheers)—particularly
when they had no means of knowing the source whence the in-
formation was obtained upon which the Board acted. When
a report came out they found quotations in them apparently
from impartial persons, but when they got into Committee
they turned out to be extracts from private letters of inte-
rested persons, and yet they were put forth under the autho-
rity of the Board of Trade, and afterwards supported in that
House by Members of the Government. He must say that
the parties had just grounds for complaint. Wheu he attended
as one of a deputation at the Board of Trade, from
Worcester, he was told by a gentleman of the name of
Laing, who came out of the room, that the whole
quest ion hid been fully investigated on both sides.
He inferred, therefore, that a careful consideration had been
given to the case of both parties, and he now asked the lion.
Gentleman if he could produce the evidence which had induced
the Board of Trade to come to such a decision. The Board of
Trade had stated certain opinions as to the difficulty of trans-
ferring from the one gauge to the other; but the Committee '
thought there would be no such difficulty. The Great Western
had never received any communication on the subject. The
Board of Trade had alluded to the great difficulties That would
arise from the transfer. When a witness was called and was
asked if he wrote to the Board, he said that he had written a
private letter in reply to a private communication which he re-
ceived from the Board of Trade. He then asked the Right
Hon. Gentleman if the other side had had any similar infor-
mation?--(Hear, hear,) He also asked him if he could pro-
duce the evidence of those who said that the change could
be effected with the greatest facility. It was proposed to be done
in two ways, either by lifting up the waggons, or by putting them
on a truck, and they gave the number of minutes in which it
could be done, and the expense that would be incurred. When

Mr. Brunell had stated this his cross-examination was ad-
journed, while Mr. Stephenson's evidence on the other side
was closely gone into. But there were also other parts of the
report of the Board of Trade which, though strong in expres-
sion, were quite unsupported by such evidence as was adduced
before the Committee. What were the facts told to the Board
of Trade ? They were not known. Were both sides heard
before them? They knew that they were before the Corn-
mittee. There counsel were instructed on both side's of the
case. Witnesses were called, and surely those objections
which had weighed strongest with the Board of Trade could not
be utterly unknown to the London and Birmingham
Company. ( Hear, hear.) They could have in-
structed counsel to refer to those objections. Did it
appear that their attention had been directed to this ? Wit-
ness after witness was called, not making ex parte statements,
but examined, cross-examined, and re-examined, and now he
should wish to know which of these reports ought to li/en-
titled to most credit? Whether was an examination taken in
private by the Board of Trade—let them be given credit for the
greatest intelligence and diligence, still such an accumulation
of business could not be properly attended to by them. The
inquiry was more satisfactory when both parties made their
statements face to face, and where perhaps twenty-five days of
examination was the average. The report of the Board of
Trade had nothing at all to do with the question. This Bill
would be subject to all the legislative enactments which passed
on the subject of railways, and it might be an easy matter to
bring in a clause in the Bill to alter their gauges. They have
done this in the line between Worcester and Bristol, where
the gauges were both broad and narrow. They had heard the
evidence of engineers on the subject, and it was a matter yet in
doubt which of these gauges was the better one. He
was astonished that the Hon. Member for Stockport had not
exercised that great intelligence which belonged to him, before
he had expressed the hope that they had chosen a uniform
gauge in the beginning of these railway speculations. They
did not know then, they did not yet know, which was the better
gauge, for they had not hail sufficient experience on the subject.
It was quite easy to insert a clause in this Bill to give the
power of making either the broad or narrow way. But he
thought that it was highly unjust that this Bill should be cast
aside by a side-wind. There was the utmost desire to give
every facility to the necessities of the country. The broad
gauge was proposed as absolutely necessary for the wants of
the district through which the lines had to pass, and the inte-
rests of the parties concerned in the narrow gauge might be
met by the introduction of the additional line of rails. He
did not know on what evidence the. Board of Trade had come
to their decision, or why they should make so strong a re-
port as they had done on this subject; but he
must say that the decision of the Committee was
much more valuable, for it had been made with the report of
the Board of Trade before them. It was made with the parties
advocating both systems face to face, and the counsel employed
on both sides fully instructed to state the circumstances woich
should give that decision a judicial character. He, therefore
saw no reason why this Bill should not be suffered to
pass:
There had evidently been a full inquiry, and he ',rusted the
Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) would assist 'in giving effect
to the report of the Committee. He lookes!, forward with great
confidence to the advantages which would result in future
throughout the whole country. rfe trusted, therefore, that
the House would affirm the
.enision of the Committee.
Sir G. CLERK said }.,at the Hon. Gentleman had thrown
out an imputation against the Board of Trade for which there
was not the sliriote,t ground. The Board of Trade hail not
decided without receiving all the testimony they could desire.
They ha(l every one before them who could give any informa-
tion. They had seen the Directors of the Great Western
Company, and with them all those at all competent to express
an opinion on the merits of both systems. The principle had
been fully discussed ; and they had not only had one interview,
but a second and a third, and had not come to their conclusions
without the tidiest investigation.
Mr. H. WARD said that he should not have spoken on this
question but for the undue warmth which the Chairman had
thrown into Isis vindication.—(" No, no," from Mr. Shaw.)
The Hon. Gentleman said that his decision (lid not coincide
with the report of the Board of Trade ; but he had not shown
how it furthered the public interest.—( Hear, hear.) He
thought that the observations of the Hon. Member for Stock_
port (Mr. Cobden) were worthy of the fullest consideration by
the House. Without disputing the qualification of the Com-
mittee to adjudicate on so important a question, he thought it
ought not finally to be decided by the incidental interposition
of any committee, and they ought not to complain if the House
analysed the details of their decision, and expressed an adverse
opinion. The cuages were to be judged of by their relative
speed, safety, and means of carrying great weight. The
report of the Committee itself stated that the same speed
could be obtained on both. The Hon. and Learned Member
for Worcester had given an opinion on the proposition of tran-
shipment of goods at the point of the change of gauge, and had
expressed a rather strong opinion on the feasibility of such a
practice. Ile (Mr. Ward) having had a little more expe-
rience in such matters than his lion. Friend, having had the
misfortune to be a director of a railway company for a consi-
derable time, he could bear witness to the great inconve-
nience ever arising- from changes of a like description, in re-
spect of stoppages, transferring, waste of time, Sec.—.inconve-
niences so great, as he felt assured must prevent it ever being
used on an extensive scale.—( Hear, hear.) The real ques-
tion was, whether two members of a Committee should settle
this important point ; and whether a small party in a Commit-
tee should decide that which reepired the wisest heads and the
most practised minds, invocirtg, as it did, the best interests of
the -country.—( Hear, leear.)
Sir T. ACLAND said, that if the question was taken up
at all it ought tooe taken up
seriously. He admitted that an
inquiry into t
!tie merits of the gauges was a very necessary in-
quiry, but. the present was not the time to make it. It was
not F:ir to raise the question now, after having allowed
the two rival companies to pull themselves to pieces, and
let so doing spend 10,000/.—( Hear, hear.) This was
not the time to settle the general principle of the gauges, but
the question was the merits of the two present railways. On
their comparative merits the Committee had given a decision,
and if the Boise did not agree in that decision, it would reflect
no credit on them.—(Cheers.) Why was not the question of
gauge brought up when railways were agreed to be constructed
between Reading and Basingstoke, in which the broad and
narrow gauges came in contact. Other railways had like-
wise been constructed, in which this question might have been
agitated. If it wan right to interfere now, why did they riot
interfere then?
Sir R. PEEL said it was exceedingly difficult for those who
were Alinisters of the Crown to divest themselves of any influ-
ence they might be possessed of, in giving an opinion on a
subject of so peculiar a nature as the present ; and he thought
that, as a general rule, Ministers of the Crown should refrain
' from expressing any opinion on such matters. He had heard
the discussion, and he would pronounce his opinion in a purely
judicial manner, unbiassed by any considerations except those
of general benefit. The Right Hon. Gentleman had asked
him to exert all the influence he possessed on the subject. lie
would, however, exert no influence whatever. He would not
interfere with the report of the Board of Trade, nor, looking at
the construction of the Committee, would he attempt to influ-
ence them. At the commencement of the present sea-ion, he
had made a public statement that the report of the Board of
Trade did not constitute a final decision. He considered that
they might be extremely useful in enabling Committees to ar-
rive with greater facility at a more correct judgment; but the
reports were never intended to form a definite opinion. The
Committee had been presided Over by a Right lion. Gentle-
man, than whom a person of greater experience, or more fit to
perform an office of that nature, could not be found, and he had
informed him (Sir Robert Peel) that the Committee were
unanimous in the opinion which had been expressed
in their report. The opinion which he had formed
regarding the matter, and formed purely in the
exercise of judicial authority was, that it would not be wise to
overrule the decision of the Committee. He had acted ex-
tremely judiciously in the matter, and he could prove it by
stating that he held in his hand a petition from his own con-
stituents adverse to the course which he was now pursuing.
He thought it would be inadvisable and replete with difficulty
to overrule the opinion of a Committee on matters of this kind,
and he should most unhesitatingly give his support to the de-
cision of the Committee.
Mr. W. 0. STANLEY said he thought there were some
points in the subject before the House which deserved their
attentive consideration. The Hon. Member quoted something
from a blue book which he held in his hand, but such were
the cries of " Oh," and " Divide," that it was impossible that
even the Hon. Member who sat next him could hear him.
Mr. SHAW said the facts were exactly opposite to what the
Hon. Member who had just sat down stated. The Committee
was not in favour of any particular line, but would approve of
the best.
Mr. MUNTZ had no share in any railroad and no interest
in any gauge. The difficulty was to have to settle the subject
at last. The Right Hon. Gentleman opposite said he would
not determine in favour of arty gauge. Who, then, was to
determine? It was a most important question, and the expense
of determining the best gauge ought to be paid out of the con-
solidated fund. —( Laughter.) It was very well for Hon.
Members to laugh, but wituld they laugh when the adoption of
both gauges caused loss of money, loss of time, and loss of life?
He ought to know something of these matters, and he pre-
ferred having one gauge to two. Would the House pledge
itself to carry out one of those gauges without further informa-
tion. The question was of the utmost importance. How were
they to get large trucks into little tunnels ? He thought the
Board of Trade was composed of very sensible painstaking
men, and the House should not lightly disregard its recommen-
dation. He had no interest or feeling in the matter, but would
again recommend them to inquire into the subject of dispute
before they decided upon it.—(Cries of " Divide.") He knew
Hon. Members wanted to get to their dinners ; he, too, was
hungry; but a broken neck was no such light matter.
Mr. VILLIERS STUART said there would be no danger
whatever in adopting the recommendation of the Committee,
which he thought should be preferred to the decision of the
Board of Trade.
Lord INGESTRE said, as his constituents were much inte-
rested in this question, he must say a few words. Ile hoped the
Hon. Member for Stockport would bring forward his motion
on a subsequent day—it was far too important a question to be
hastily decided upon.
Mr. GODSON rote amid loud cries of "Divide," but each
time he attempted to speak he was met by such a storm of
" Oh, oh !" that he could get no further than the first syllable.
He, however, continued standing with a bundle of papers in his
hand, looking vacantly round the House. After the lapse of a
few minutes he proceeded to say that the Committee
had no confidence in their own report, and he would
undertake to say that the Committee could not receive it.
After the noises with which he was assailed had in some degree
subsided, he proceeded to say that the original Bill contained
fifty-two clauses, and that the Committee had added fifty-eight
—more than doubling it. He called upon the Chairman and the
Members of the Committee to point out the clauses which they
supported in their report._( Oh, oh.) On the small five lines by
the side of the main line, for the use of coalmasters at Stour- '
bridge and Dudley, they increased the toll from Id. to lid. par
ton, thus increasing the profits of the company fifty per cent.,
and the company were empowered to charge as much
for the conveyance of coals and iron a hundred yards as for
miles. Thus the coil-masters of South Staffordshire would
have to pay 1,000/. per cent. more than by any other line. Such
was the report whieh they were called upon to pass. He held
in his hand a petition from those carrying on business in the
mining districts of that county, in which they complained of
the manner in which the Committee had treated them.—
(Cries of " Oh, oh," and" Divide, divide.") Now, proceeded
the Hon. Member, amidst the most discordant noises, and with
a peculiar action and emphasis, which called forth repeated
peals of laughter, I call on any three of the file Committee men
to rise in their places and say that they read the clauses which
they inserted in the Bill.—(Laughter.) The report which
they brought tip is contradicted by the clauses which they have
passed, and the House should send it back, that it may be re-
considered, for I hold that the public have no right to be taxed
in the way they have laid down.
Colonel ANSON, on the authority of the coal-masters and
iron-masters of South Staffordshire, stated, that altbesigh there
was some ambiguity in the Bill, yet they were perfectly satis-
fied with the tolls which it irnposed.—( Cheers. )
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For receiving the report
Against it .....
Majority for receiving it
The report was then adopted.
OXFORD AND RUGBY RAILWAY BILL.
On the motion that the report on this Bill be adopted,
Mr. LOCKHART said, on the receipt of the Oxford and
Rugby Railway Bill, he had said that the two schemes had been
supposed to be so assimilated with the one which had just been
discussed that they ought to go together. But though he knew
that this to a great degree was true, there was indeed so great
a resemblance, that what had induced him to vote against one
Bill would induce him to vote against the other, He should,

therefore, move that the report be received that day six
months.
Mr. COLLETT said that the decision had certainly sur-
prised him. The inhabitants on this line were not as in the
other case divided in opinion, and he should, therefore, feel it
his duty to divide the House, not so much on this particular
line, but on the great question of the broad and narrow gauge,
as it affected the whole country, and he should, therefore,
second the amendment.
Mr. SHAW said that the decision of the Committee
had been fully dicussed in Committee. The honourable
Member for Sheffield had stated that Oxford was a less
impoi tant place than Rugby. Without assenting to this, he
was yet quite prepared to concur in the arguments which had
been adduced by that Hon. Member. He must say, how-
ever, that this was not a question as to the broad and narrow
gauge, for the broad and narrow gauge they had, and they
could not get rid of it; and the only question was the incon-
venience to be incurred, and he thought that no places were
more convenient for the alteration than Oxford and Rugby,
and he should, therefore, adhere to his resolution.
Mr. GISBORNE said that he quite agreed with the Board
of Trade, that Oxford was in itself a place of great im-
portance, and Rugby, on accsunt of its consumption, was of
no importance at all. The Birmingham Company were in
such a position, from the abstraction of the traffic on one hand
from Liverpool, and on the other by the new line from Bed-
ford to Leicester, that they were certain to provide all the ad-
vantages which the public could require. The Hon. Member
said, that if the railway were lost now, the county would
never have a line at all. From this he was compelled to dis-
sent, for from the experience which they had lately derived
from the proceedings from one end of the country to the other,
he had very little doubt but that a project would be brought
forward next year, and he should, therefore, vote for the
amendment.
Mr. ri-lACLEAN said that the House was not yet sufficiently
in possession of information to enable it to judge of the ad-
vantages of those two gauges. A little more time would not
be lost if this question were postponed for a few month.
longer. The alteration which it was proposed to establish
would require an alteration in every one of the coal waggons
which were employed on the Birmingham line. Those wag-
orTthh,ey andm
wag-
gnus cost from 301. to 40.. each, and as to the attempt to
ght
another eta
b i
lift those waggons into other waggons and trucks, it would be
so expensive that the attempt could never be made with any
aplrlolbmaebsilirtuynoning
fadvtaontthageen.
ni'ht h oneos e gauge
i ni gn
to the west.
Mr. NE WDEGATE said that it so nearly affected his con-
stituents, that he could not ref,:se to occupy the House for It few moments. The no.-se in the House was so great, that it
was next to impos_,inle to hear what the Hon. Member said ;
but we unde
I.:stood him to say that, as the whole district on his
side of oxford must be supplied from the coal districts be-
} °:.a Birmingham, there would be an increased difficulty in
getting their supplies if this interruption of the gauges was to
be made.
Mr. TANCRED said that the coal from the south and
western districts was already so cut off by the existing rail-
ways, that it was of the utmost importance that no additional
impediment should be thrown in their way. Their only sup-
ply now was from the Leicester coal field, am. the coal of that
district was of so friable a nature, that it was lifted into the
carriages in large pieces, and if transferred from one carriage
to another would inevitably be made worthless for all domestic
purposes.
Mr. VILLIERS STUART thought that so much had
been said against the Committee that he thought it was high
time that something should be said in their favour. He, as one
of the members of that Committee, could assure the House
that the utmost care had been taken by the Committee to make
a full investigation into the merits of the rival schemes. He
had himself seen, not models, hut carriages of the two descrip-
tions which it was proposed to employ in the transference fie m
one gauge to the other, and there was neither danger nor ex-
pense in the original outlay or the current expense. And
with respect to the friableness of the coal, there was not the
least probability that it would he in any way injured.
Mr. WARD thought that the inconvenience that would
arise from the shifting of 60,000 tons of coal from one rail to
another would not be compensated for by any advantages arising
from the use of the broad gauge. He thought one of the very
first objects in a railway was an uniform line.
Mr. BRAMSTON said that the Bill now before the
House would greatly facilitate trade in the districts which it
traversed. The Hon. Member for Sheffield had in the course
of that debate referred to a member of the Committee who
could not make up his mind on which side to vote. He did
not know to which of the in -mbers of the Committee the Hon.
Member referred, hut if he referred to him (Mr. Bramston) he
was not ashamed to say that where great interests were in-
volved he did consider on which side, as an honest man, he ,
ought to give his decision.

Mr. SPOONER said that if any Hon. Member would but
take the trouble to look how the great northern lines were
carried out, he need have no hesitation afterwards in supporting
the narrow gauge. He trusted that the House would remember
that this was not the decision of a united but a divided Com-
mittee, and that they would reject the report.
After a few words from .11r. Drummond, Lord George
Bentinck, and Sir T. Acland,
The House divided, when there appeared—
For the adoption of the report 79
Against it
Majority 36
ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE.
Lord G. SOMERSET moved that the House at its rising do
adjourn till Monday.—Agreed to.
COMMITTEE OF PRIVILEGE.
Sir F. THESIGER brought up the report of the Com-
mittee of Privileges, and fixed Thursday next for its consi-
deration.

CUSTOMS.
The House then resolved itself into a Committee on the
Customs Bill.

BUTTER AND CHEESE.
Mr. EWA RT, conceiving that the House, at that late hour,
was not in a position to do justice to the subject of which he
had given notice, obtained leave to postpone his motion on the
subject of butter and cheese till the next supply night.
REDUCTION OF THE DUTY ON TALLOW.
Mr. E. BULLER then brought forward his motion for a
reduction of the duty on tallow. He said that, in 1842, the
duty on articles similar to tallow was very materially
reduced, and the result had proved most satisfactory.
It was unfortunate that both then and in 1834 the
article of tallow was omitted from the reductions made in the
tariff, because it was an article largely imported into this coun-
try, and one considerably used by manufacturers. In the pre-
sent year the duty on articles of the same description was again
reduced, but still the article of tallow remained untouched;
and it was because he thought it was an ascertained principle
that articles of a similar character ought to be dealt with in the
same manner, that induced him to ask for the abolition of the
duty on tallow.

After a few words from Mr. EWART, which were not dis-
Lnctly heard,

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
whilst he opposed the m,tion upon financial grounds, he was
ready to admit that the subject of the motion required the
serious consideration of the Government.
Sir R. PEEL opposed the repeal, on the ground that the
Government was not prepared to make the reduction.
Mr. WILLIAMS said that that was no ground for the re-
tention of this tax. The weight of taxation was thrown upon
the great mass of the working class. It was better than con-
tinuing it upon the poorest class.
Mr. MITCHELL said that a great advantage would be de-
rived from taking the import duty off tallow.
Mr. E. BULLER then replied and withdrew his motion.
COPPER ()RE.
On the motion of Mr. PARKER that all duties on the im-
portation of copper ore should cease and determine,
Sir C. LEMON spoke of the value of foreign copper ere,
particularly that brought from France and Chilia, and con-
tended that the trade of the country in copper would be
greatly benefited if the House should accede to the motion of
the Hon. Member.

Mr. TRELAWNEY made a few observations which were
not audible in the gallery.
Sir G. CLERK contended that it would by no means be
beneficial either to this country or to foreign countries to have
the duty altogether abolished.
Mr PARKER withdrew his motion.
Dr. BOWRING moved that the duty on One logs, not
exceeding 10 feet in length, and 11 inches square, be reduced
to 12s. 61. per load. He considered that if the duty were re-
duced to the amount he had proposed, that the trade in tim-
ber with Sweden and Norway and the Baltic would be greatly
increased, more particularly at the present moment, when
great quantities of timber were required for the railways in the
course of construction.

Sir GEO. CLERK opposed the motion, on the ground that
when the motion was under the consideration of the House in
1842, the duty on foreign timber was greatly reduced, and he
now saw no reason to make the alteration proposed.
The galleries were elearked for a division, but none took place.
The House resumed.

SUPPLY.
On the motion for going into Committee of Supply,
Mr. WILLIAMS objected to their going into a Committee,
to vote away large sums of money at that hour of the night, and
advised the Government to postpone doing so until Monday.
Many Members had left the House on the understanding that
the Customs' Duties Bill would have 0.;.1...pied the whole of
the night.
Sir ROBERT PEEL said Hon. Memb.,:s frequently com-
plained that they did not bring on the estimates on the days
which were appointed for doing so.
Dr. BOWRING said the lion. Baronet must know that it
was generally understood that the House would not go into a
Committee of Supply that night.
Mr. WILLIAMS moved the adjournment of the House.
The galleries were cleared for a division, but none took place.
THE CASE OF MR. MAYER.
On the motion for going into Committee of Supply,
Mr. WILLIAMS, after complaining of the motion for supply
being brought se suddenly forward, brought under the con-
sideration of the House the case of Mr. Mayer. who was some
time back charged with an assault before Mr. Twyford. The
Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Williams) entered into a detail of the
circumstances of the case, which was reported in the police re
ports at the time. Mr. Mayer went to the house of his
brother-in-law, who had seduced his daughter, and inflicted a
blow upon him with a stick. Mr. Mayer was taken before Mr.
Twyford, who committed him for trial, and refused to take
bail, although Mr. Mayer had received such provoca-
tion. The conduct of the person assaulted was most
horrible, and would justify almost any violence.
He thought the country had a right to know the grounds upon
which that magistrate had acted in direct opposition to his
duty, and then the public would see whether the Right Hc,i.
Baronet had discharged his duty in merely censuring him. If
proper precaution had been taken, such repeated complaints
would not be made of the misconduct of almost every magistrate
on the police bench. If the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary
of State for the Home Department had not systematically
neglected to apply those correctives which it was his duty and
in his power alone to inflict.—(Hear, hear.) At present
the censure of the public press was the only notice taken of
magisterial misconduct, and the only protection which the
public possessed. The public were deeply indebted to the
press for the exposure it from time to time gave of abuses, and
for the defence it invariably accorded every class of the injured
and oppressed. Had he been aware that between eleven and
twelve o'clock at night he should h ave been called on to discuss
a question of spelt intense interest to the public, he would have
been prepared with documents to lay a case of oppression
before the House which must have compelled the Right
Honourable Barouet, unwilling as he was, to accede
to the wishes of the community, and have agreed to
the following proposition with which he would conclude. The
lion. Member then read the motion of which he had given
notice—" For copy of the correspondence between the Secre-
tary of State for the Horns Department -anti Mr. Twyford, the
Police magistrate, in reference to his commitment of Mr.
Mayer, an inhabitant of St. Marylebone , to Newgate, for an
assault, under circumstances of gross prov ()cation, after his re-
fusal to accept bail for him, although tenth red to any amount."
Mr. S. CRAWFORD seconded the motion.
Sir J. GRAHAM thought that after the Speaker had be 3n
left sitting at half-past two that morning, and had since been
sitting ten hours uninterruptedly, it was too bad for an Hon.
Member to rise and speak against time, solely for the
purpose of preventing the House going into Supply.
The Honourable Member had called upon him for an explana-
tion, and he would detain the House only for a few n toments.
The provocation which Mr. Mayer had receiw.scl, he t idmitted
was great, but the assault he had committed was very de, liberate.
lie left his house after dark, armed with a bludgeon, pc oceeded
to the house of his brother-in-law, knocked at ths s door,
and when it was opened, struck at and stunned him. The
gentleman assaulted was attended by a vogeon —he WI re-