The Sun.
London, England, 1842-01-05 00:00:00

MORNING SUN

THE
THE TEN HOURS FACTORY
QUESTION.

CONTINUATION OF A REPORT ADDRESSED TO THE
SHORT TIME COMMITTEES OF THE WEST RIDING OF
YORKSHIRE OP CERTAIN CONFERENCES HELD WITH
THE RIGHT HON. SIR R. PEEL, BART., AND SEVERAL
OF HIS COLLEAGUES, ON THE SUBJECT OF THE TEN
HOURS FACTORY BILL.
INTERVIEW WITH SIR J. GRAHAM, BART., SECRETARY
OP STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT.
(No. 2.)
Previous to waiting upon Sir J. Graham, which they
did the same day, namely, on the 28th of October, the
deputation proceeded to the residence of Mr.W. Beckett,
M.P. for Leeds, who accompanied them to the Home-
office, where they were introduced to Sir J. Graham.
The DEPUTATION briefly stated the leading features
of the measure which they were sent to press upon the
attention of the Government. Sir J. Graham asked if
they had considered what effect a restriction of the la-
bour of all factory workers between the ages of thirteen
and twenty-one to ten hours a-day would have upon the
manufacturing interests of the country. "Do you not
think," said he, " that it would very much aggravate the
evils and the distress under which that portion of the
community are now represented to be suffering ?"
The DEPUTATION replied, that if they thought such
would be the result of the measure they would be
the last persons in the world to press for its adop-
tion ; but it was because, after a mature considera-
tion of the subject in all its bearings, they had come
to the conclusion that it would be abenefit rather than
an injury, that they now ventured respectfully to
call the attention of the Government to the measure.
They were, in the first place, convinced that they were
justified in asking for this measure on the grounds of
humanity, justice, and morality; and further, that it was
in accordance with the soundest doctrines of political
economy. They repudiated the idea of entertaining any
hostile feeling towards the employers of capital and la-
bour in the manfacturing departments of industry. The
deputation proceeded to show, at considerable length, that
the destitute condition of the operatives, and the general
difficulties existing among the employers in the manufac-
turing districts, arose from the neglect of the very first
principles of political economy—a neglect which led to
an over-supply, a supply greatly beyond the substantial
demand fur their productions. Since 1815 there had been
a continual improvement going on in the machinery, by
which three times the amount of goods was now manu-
factured with less adult manual labour than was required
in the previous period for the smaller quantity. What
had been the result? Why, that they were now actually
receiving for three times the quantity of goods less than
the same amount of money which they got in
1815 for the one-third. It was not, therefore, to
be wondered at that, coincident with this over-
production of machine-made goods as compared
with a substantial demand, wages and profits had
both decreased ; that the workmen who were
still required had to work harder for a smaller remune-
ration, the capitalist for a lower rate of profit, and that
pauperism had kept pace with each successive me-
chanical invention which displaced male adult labour,
substituting in its place either the labour of mechanical
automatons, or that of women and children. For these
and other reasons, of which an outline only is here pre-
sented, the Deputation said they were firmly convinced
that the measure they advocated was in accordance
with the dictates of the soundest political economy, and
calculated to lead back again to a greater amount of national
well-being than could be anticipated from any of those
remedial measures which contemplated a continuance in
the false course which had already entailed such evil on
the community.
Sir J. GRAHAM, in reply, urged most of the reasons
adduced by the free-trade party. He dwelt with great
emphasis upon the possible results of a policy which, by
placing our manufacturers in a comparatively worse posi-
tion than the manufacturers of the Continent and Ame-
rica, might ultimately render the capital of the former
altogether profitless, and thereby induce them to close
their mills altogether. He pictured the awful effects
which such a course would have upon the thousands
thickly congregated in the manufacturing districts, and
entirely dependent on the continuance of our foreign
trade for existence. He said it would be argued that
with such an intense and increasing rivalry on the part
of foreigners as the Deputation had admitted, it would
be impossible to interpose any checks to the production
of manufactured goods in the cheapest possible way, un-
less indeed we were determined to give our rivals the ad-
vantage in the market, and thereby put a stop to our fo-
reign trade altogether.
The DEPUTATION said that the extension of the Fo-
reign trade in the manner in which that had of late
years been effected appeared to them calculated most cer-
tainly to produce the very results which Sir James Gra-
ham seemed anxious to avoid.
Sir J. GRAHAM here said, " Understand me ; I am
not arguing as though I personally participate in these
views ; but my object is to show you what will be said
by those opposed to your views, and to ascertain the
ground upon' which you claim such a measure as a ten
hours' restriction."
The DEPUTATION proceeded to say, that according to
the arguments-presented in favour of the policy of caus-
ing-the operatives to be dependent on a foreign market
foisetnployment, it was admitted that our ascendancy in
those foreign markets could only be kept up by a conti-
nuottiecheapening of the cost of production. How was
that;.to be effected ? It could not be done by reducing
much lower the wagy ,of the adult operltt.tves..,JTht.
further displacing these adult and comparatively high-
priced laboisrers by self-acting machinery, or machinery
so contrived that what little attendance it might require
would be that of women and children, and as little even
of that as possible ; and thus we shall come to the same
result. The great. bulk of the labouring classes would
be thrown idle, whether we extended or restricted our
foreign trade under the present direction of machinery.
Sir J. GRAHAM—Yes, but not so rapidly.
The DEPUTATION—It is a sorry conclusion, Sir James,
to think that this perversion of human ingenuity should
make the multiplication of means for the increase of
national wealth offer us only the alternative of slow or
speedy ruin.
Sir J. GRAIIAM—WeII ! but how is it to be remedied?
I do not see any practical mode of averting it ; do you ?
The DEPUTATION—Yes, we think we do.
Sir J. GRAHAM—What would you recommend ?
The DEPUTATION—The adoption of a comprehensive
and efficient plan of home colonization ; for which pur-
pose we would advise the passing, at the expense of the
nation, of a general waste land enclosure Bill, which
should make provision for reasonable compensation to
all those interested in these lands. We should then
have a Parliamentary grant raised by loan, or by Ex-
chequer bills, to be applied under a Board of Control
to the settling down upon these uncultivated but improv-
able wastes our now unemployed population ; and if the
waste lands were insufficient we would recommend that
the Government should have recourse to the Crown
lands for the same purpose and in the same way. This
would increase real wealth at home, direct the energies of
the people in the first place to provide food and shelter
for themselves, 'and the surplus of their labour would
form a fund for defraying the necessary expenses, and
ultimately repaying the principal advanced.
Sir J. GRAHAM—Ah ! that might do very well if we
were beginning de novo, but under present circum-
stances it seems quite impracticable.
The DEPUTATION.—WeII, Sir James, you have just
these alternatives—either to commence this measure now
gradually and peaceably, and thus avert the evils we
have been anticipating, or to let the present system take
its course, spreading destitution, pauperism, discontent,
and disaffection, more and more widely, until it termi-
nates in general disorganization and anarchy, and then
to be forced to begin de novo, amid the wrecks of former
institutions.
Sir J. GRAHAM.—I hope matters are not likely to end
in that way, and that our prospects are not so gloomy
as you appear to think them.
Thu DEPUTATION.--We are convinced Sir James,
by long and painful sufferings, which have induced 11;
to search deeply into and ponder often on the
working and tendencies of the present mode of
using machinery, that unless a different direction
be given to its mighty capabilities it will become
the destroyer of those who so misuse it ; and not
only ,the' destrdyer of them, but also of the working
classee, 'whos'e fate is now, in a certain sense, in their
hands:, quit aftetglut, panic after panic, has visited us
of W.a years, the period between each progressively les-
serin-g, arid each finding us still less able to beat- it than
its'piededeseor, The humble comforts of the operatives'
cottage hoe dleappeared. The middle classes of trades-
men, who depend upon the lower classes, are in all but
an insolvent state, and trade is concentrated in the hands
of a few overgrown capitalists, in consequence of the
inability of smaller capitalists to contend with them.
Such is the state of our towns at the present moment.
We have given you our reasons for believing that the
increase of our foreign trade under the present system
would permanently increase neither wages nor profits,
nor arrest their downward tendencies ; and we leave
to you the consideration of these reasons.
Sir J. GRAHAM, who throughout the interview had
appeared to take a deep interest in the subject, said
that ' the views of the deputation were certainly
startling, and deserving of serious attention ; and
that one thing was certain, that we must lay
aside the notion that we could ever again become
" the workshop of the world." In 1815 the case was
different. Then we were almost exclusively possessed of
machinery ; since then other nations had rapidly ad-
vanced in this particular, and were manufacturing for
themselves. For this and other reasons, it was mani-
festly impossible that we could ever again command the
markets of the world, as we once had done.
Sir J. GRAHAM said—Why, you complain of la-
.bourers being out of employ, and yet a few years ago
the manufacturers were advertising for labourers to be
sent down into those parts of the country.
DEruTATioN—True, Sir James ; but that was con-
nected with a contract made between the Gregs and
Ash worths and the Poor law Commissioners, the pur-
port of which was to reduce wages in the manufacturing
districts. The effect was twofold. This migration sys-
tem assisted the Commissioners in carrying out the New
in the agricultural districts, and it enabled
the manufacturers to lower and keep down wages. This
keeping down of wages was so clearly the great object of
the manufacturers in many parts of the country, and the
additional hands were in many places so utterly uncalled
for by any real extension of the demand for labour, that
it is a fact, and it is one, Sir James, which we are
most anxious to press upon your attention, that in very
many instances, where new families were taken on by
the manufacturers, an equal number of the older families
and hands were dismissed to make room for them.
After a long and very interesting conversation, of
which this report will give but an imperfect idea, Sir
James Graham said--You will not expect that I should
give any distinct "pledge- as to the course which the Go-
vernruent may take. on the subject you have brought

before us in such a temperate spirit, and in support of s
which you have arguei with equal intelligence and good
feeling. All I can say
.is tnat, in common with my col-
leagues, I am most desirous to adopt any measure which
may have the effect of introducing and maintaining pros-
perity among our fellow-countrymen ; and you may rest
assured that we will use our best exertions, and give
our most careful consideration to any measures which
seem to us calculated to effect that primary and para-
mount object. lam obliged to you, gentlemen, for your
kindness in calling upon me, and for the information
and pleasure you have afforded me, and will only add,
that it will always be the duty of the Government to re-
ceive such deputations from the working classes, and to
listen to their statements attentively, ay, and respectfully.
The Deputation then withdrew.
Of the Home Secretary it may be remarked, that while
his treatment of the Deputation was unexceptionable
throughout—while there was no want of expressions of
politeness and cordiality on his part, upon the whole the
impression produced upon the Deputation was less fa-
vourable than in the previous case. Sir James Graham
seems to us have drunk too deeply at the fount of the
Malthusian philosophy to be able to get rid entirely of
its influence ; and though, while putting forward the
arguments of that school, he repeatedly cautioned the
Deputation against supposing that he was uttering his
own sentiment-s, the Deputation think that there is rea-
son to apprehend, from the earnestness of manner which
he displayed in arguing, and the importance he seemed
to attach to those opinions, that the dogmas of that
school continue to exercise a considerable influence over
his mind. GEORGE A. FLEMING.
JOSHUA HOBSON.
JOHN LEECH.
MARK CRABTREE.
TITUS S. BROOKE.

SOUTHWARK ANTI-CORN-LAW
ASSOCIATION.
A meeting of this Association took place on Monday
evening, at the Three Tuns Tavern, St. Margaret's-hill,
to discuss the effects of the present Corn-laws, upon the
trade and commerce of this country. The meeting was
graced by the presence of a considerable number of ladies,
and altogether we should say that there were about 200
persons present. Benjamin Hawes, Esq., M.P., presided,
and was supported by Dr. Bowring, ALP , J. Harris,
Esq., M.P., Colonel P. Thompson ; Sidney Smith, Esq.,
and many of the leading Reformers of the borough.
When the tables were cleared,
The CHAIRMAN said, that he felt the most lively satis-
faction in being called to preside over such a meeting, a
meeting which he sincerely trusted would be the fore-
runner of similar meetings in every quarter of the metro•
polis, and thus become the leading point of a movement
which it would not be found easy to resist.—(Hear.)
They had met to discuss a question of vital import-
tance, a question which their opponints told them was
not sufficiently understood ; but surely the distress that
had existed for such a length of time was quite suffi-
cient to give them every requisite information with re-
gard to the subject. It was monstrous to feel that a
small portion of interested persons had for years been
able to stand out against the millions.—(Hear, hear.)
It was a monstrous thing to know that such was their
system of legislation that to benefit 1,000, they inflicted
ruinous injury upon a million.—(Hear, hear.) Yes, a
small body of persons, by some influence, he knew not
what, had been enabled to make themselves masters of
the people at the expense of their rights, and even the
lives of the people, and for the sole object of putting
money into their own pockets.—(Hear.) A body of
forty thousand selfish individuals were enabled to per-
suade the large body of the people, by what induce-
ments he would not say, to send their nominees into
Parliament, there to maintain laws that were inflict-
ing irreparable injury upon the people themselves.
Looking, however, at the movement that was now
taking place, looking at the talent and energy called
forth to direct and assist that movement, he doubted not
but that the eyes of the people would soon be opened to
their true interests. Emigration was talked of as a
means of alleviating the existing distress. But who
would be the persons to emigrate ? Would it be the
halt, the lame, and the blind ? No, but the hard-work-
ing man in the full vigour of his body and mind, thus
depriving the country of her mast useful citizens.—
(Hear.) Let the Corn-laws be repealed, and that which
was now a surplus population would find abundant em-
ployment.—(Hear.) He would call upon Colonel Thomp-
son to propose the first resolution.
Colonel THOMPSON said he would endeavour to ex-
plain the causes of the complaints made against the Corn-
laws, and the remedy for them. Let any gentleman pre-
sent propose to his imagination his forming one of the
occupiers of the upper soil of a limited island, capable of
producing a limited amount of produce. The interior is
filled with materials for manufactures and commerce, and
there are active mariners willing to carry the produce
of those manufactures to other countries, to exchange for
foreign commodities. How would the parties proceed ?
At first, doubtless, the produce of the upper soil being
adequate, things would go on well with the occupiers
and all parties ; but as population increased and the pro-
duce continued limited, there would necessarily arise a
scarcity of food. It would be immediately discovered that if
the product of the manufacturing industry of the people
could be exchanged abroad for food, it could be done to
great mutual advantage. Suppose, in this state of things,
the men who happened to have first become the posses-
sors of the upper soil were to stand forward and tell the
people that they should be prohibited from seeking food
in foreign markets—that they must confine themselves
thought of an island so situated ? And yet was not
this the state of this country at the present moment ?
Restricted to home produce, they were necessarily com-
pelled to give to the owners of the upper soil a greater
amount for the produce that was essential to life ' • and
in order to do this, they must have less food for the clay's
work, or must work a greater number of hours for the
same quantity of food. This operated upon all the la-
bouring population from the highest to the lowest, for
the manufacturers' profits were nothing but the wages of
a higher order of labour. The great misfortune of this
country was, that their Governments were formed for
the public evil, and not the public good. They had a
knot of cunning men setting themselves together, not to
devise how the trade of the country should be promoted,
but how it could be hindered, and trammelled. He
thought, however, more favourable times were at hand.
Those who took the lead on a late occasion might cer-
tainly have begun earlier. Had they done so, he be-
lieved they would have been successful.—(Hear, hear.)
But they must not be too severe upon them.—
(Hear.) They were all liable to err, and ought to act
gently towards one another. There vi as another circum-
stance which he thought favourable to the present move-
ment ; he meant the change of feeling amongst the work-
ing-classes. Hitherto the cause had suffered much from
the withdrawal of the influence of the working-classes ;
but he had strong hopes that the time was coming when
the influence of the working-classes would be thrown into
the scale, and thus united for one common good and with
one common object, drawing all at once and all together,
he felt convinced, whatever opposition they might meet
with, they would attain the object which was dear to all,
and which was for the benefit of all. He would conclude
by proposing the following resolution—" That the cause
in which we are engaged, viz., the total repeal of the
Corn and Provision-laws, is just and righteous, deserving
the support of every lover of his country and of the hap-
piness and prosperity of his fellow citizens, and which,
from the daily increasing distress in nearly all parts of
the kingdom, calls for renewed and increased exertion."
J. HARRIS, Esq., M.P., seconded the resolution.
The resolution was put and carried unanimously.
Dr. BownING proposed the next resolution. The re-
solution afforded him much gratification, as it referred
to the great progress which this question was making in
the public mind. The question had suffered nothing by
delay. On the contrary, it had now been dragged into
the broad light of day, the fallacies that surrounded it
had been smitten down, and the people, enlightened upon
the subject, were determined no longer to be denied the
benefits and blessings of a free communication and inter-
change of produce with the rest of the world. Tho Hon.
Gentleman, after referring to the celebrated petition re-
specting free trade, presented twenty years ago from
certain merchants of the City of London, said they were
now again putting forward those great principles, not as
a few intelligent merchants, or a few opulent and influen-
tial individuals, but as a whole community. The suffer-
ing millions had been taught wisdom by distress. After
some brief remarks he concluded by moving—" That the
prospects of success to our efforts are encouraging beyond
all precedent—such as hold out the strongest hope that
by unremitting and persevbring endeavours, we shall ob-
tain the speedy realization of our most ardent and long-
cherished desires—the entire abolition of those unjust
and oppressive laws."
A. PELLATT, Esq., seconded the resolution. They
were all agreed upon one point—namely, the inapolicy of
the Cora-laws, and it was high time for them to diffuse
amongst the people all possible information on the sub-
ject.—(Hear, hear.) It was evident that some radical
and important change must take place, if the happiness
of the people was to be studied. The present restrictions
upon trade must be removed, or the working man would
soon be, if, indeed, he was not at present, unable to pay
his way.—(Hear, hear.) Many of the continental manufac-
turers were enabled to purchase their raw materials at
half the cost for which they could be obtained in this
country. They were in that way enabled to undersell us
in our own colonies and home markets. Unless the price
of provisions, and especially of corn, was reduced,. the
best interests of the country would soon be entirely
destroyed.—(Cheers.)
The CHAIRMAN put the resolution, and it was carried
unanimously.
JAMES WILSON, Esq., moved the following resolution
—" That the assistance and co operation of ladies, in the
prosecution of this good work, is of the greatest impor-
tance, and will most essentially promote the accomplish-
ment of its objects. We, therefore, earnestly and press-
ingly invite the aid of the females of Southwark—mo-
thers, wives, and daughters (after the example of their
countrywomen in Manchester and other places), by sigr.-
ing and obtaining signatures to memorials and petitions,
and by collecting subscriptions, to assist us in this laud-
able, life-preserving undertaking."—(Cheers.)
Mr. SIDNEY SMITH seconded the resolution. Accord-
ing to the testimony of James Deacon Hume, Esq., the
amount of the bread any beef tax was a hundred mil-
lions annually, and that burden was imposed on the
country under the pretence that it was necessary
for the protection of the agricultural labourers of
this country, as they had large burdens to bear, and
were unable, unless protected, to compete with the fo-
reign grain grower. The principal burdens which they
mentioned as an excuse for their conduct were tithes and
poor-rates. The one did not exist in Scotland, nor
the other in Ireland, and yet Englishmen were enabled
to compete with them ; and if Englishmen could main-
tain a competition with the untaxed wheat of Scotland,
why could they not do so also with that of France, or
any other country?—(Hear, hear.) The agricultural
labourers in England and Wales were estimated at the