The Sun.
London, England, 1842-05-11 00:00:00

the present duty.
With regard to live animals, or 'cows and
calves, are. find
• to admit at present art absolute prohibition. We pro-
pose. them at a rate of duty which, 1 admit, is ex-
tremely low., but which, I trust, I shad be able to show,
although it.,,
of meat,. ill be such as to prevent any increase in the price
to col Apiaii,.—(
will give the agricultural interest no mason whatever
Cheering and counter cheering)—while, in
mar.ttem wed' every class, they will share in the benefits to be
del :troll from these reductions. Now, in addition to
tce prohibition on the importation of meat and live
animals, which we propose to remove, we also propose to re-
' octave the prohibitions en the importation of fish. With re-
;lard to salmon, instead of a prohibition, we propose to admit it
at le duty of 10s. a-cwt.—( A laugh.) In every case we re-
move prohibition.—( Cheers.) Soles, I believe, before were
prohibited; at all events, I know there have been many invi-
dious distinctions made that the importation of those species of
',... fish, which were for the exclusive consumption of the rich was
Permitted, while the importation of those species of fish which
were prineipally consumed by the poor was prohibited. But
I now come to a description of fish in which I imagine the poor
• have the greatest interest--I mean herrings. In that I pro-
rse/ro introduce a most important change in the duties. I
stage, not if the Hon. Gentleman opposite approves of the al-
teration or rot—(Mr. Bannerman bowed)—l know not wile-
thee 1 ant to consider that as nn expression of as-
sent or dissent. It is a subject in which I know the Hon. Gen-
tleman and his constituents take a great interest.—( Hear. )
I will read to the House a communication I received on the sub-
ject:._" Norway," it states, " produces as many herrings as we
ata. She goes to the Baltic and can sell her herrings at from
7s. 6d. to Bs. a barrel. I presume Norway herrings may be
;imported into the north of Ireland at from 1 Is. to 12s. per
barrel, while we cannot do it at less than from 20s. to 22e. I
am a free trader in respect to ever)thing else."--( Laughter. )
This is the communication I have received, and it appears that
the person who made it is a free trader in everything else ex-
cept herrings.—( Laughter. ) Now I do not share in the ap-
prehension of my correspondent, and I cannot help thinking
that a repeal of that duty would very much benefit the working
Classes but I would wish to encourage the native
fisheries so that we might be enabled to compete
with foreigners.— ( Hear.) I do not see why we should not
heat the Norwegians.—( Hear, hear.) Reduce the duty on
timber.—( Hear, hear.) Enable the fisherman to build better
boats, that they may not fear the ruder weather and the greater
Storm, and you will enable him to compete with the Nor-
wegian. His labour is as great, and his skill is as great, but
,he wants the means; reduce the duty on timber, and you give
film a new stimulus to exertion; and when you do that, you
will enable the Scotch fisherman to supply the'North of Ireland
• With the herrings which they want. I now come to vegetables,
Which chiefly enter into the consumption of the working claaies.
The duty on miens, which- is 35., we propose to reduce
t" 6d.--( Hear.) Potatoes are at present subject to a duty of
i.s2s. per cwt., which almost amounts to a prohibition.
1-luring last winter, many communications were made to me
from the North of England and Scotland, on tlt, subj„t.
Great alarm was felt at the price of potatoes, 'out the cause of
the reduction of the price was, that they were unduly forced
into the market. I should, therefor-,,- Propose to permit the
importation of foreign, potatoes, in respect to the supply of
this country. Ido not thins the apprehensions entertained on
this subject are well sounded, but, considering the import-
hance of this article, I think a duty of two shillings is too
igh to be- - maintained, and that a material redue-
' lon ought to be made in the duty on potatoes.
,„n°W:ortss from vegetables to rice. Rice may be made a most
Zatcteal element in the subsistence of the people. With respect
1,1 rice, the duty, at the present moment is 1/. per quarter,
tr..',';:owd ire propose to reduce it to 7s. per quarter. I now come
~ a vegetable, in respect to which some notice has been
`ll4ken in this House, and upon which questions have been put
Z„ " Ito rue--I allude to hops. It appears in the present tariff that
•t_,_ .
-', ".re Is no alteration in the duty on hops. I stated that the
~ •eonsideration of this question was encompassed with many dif-
-4 4eulties on account of the Excise duties and other matters,
sad that such being the case, I wished an opportunity of corn-
41„ussicating freely with parties who had a local knowledge on
• 5 ',object, and that I would suspend the decision of the Go-
. Vl:orient till I had had full communication on the subject.
That full communication has now taken place, and the Go-
r'entutent had formed their decision as to the course they would
ounilme ; and considering the were great vicissitudes in the sea-
. as applicable to the production of hops, the great variation
let,
ne supply, and the 1-.411 price they bear at some times when
eftPare ' v.'s Pared. with others, considering also the great importance of
;.. , think article as mounted with the beverage of the people, I
'e.; (Hear ,Presere, rate of duty on hops is extravagantly high.—
ta+.les i,,ar' near- ) - Although, 1 should be most unwilling in this,
toalsb„),;;l37 a.:' (),;cher interest rudely to disarrange capital, or bring
1-'4 )'et' Go Ate that would react upon other parts of the country,
'u„41,,, oOrnment considering the peculiar nature of this arti-
'nr es,'„„doik that some security ought to be taken against those
• .
~,h., '"bitont prices taken in some years. The present rate of
.- , lir oo hopss is 81. 11s. per cwt., and after giving the subject
. rim "insideration, we are of opinion, contrary, however to the
~.
ePlassion of many persons, and contrary to the remonstrances
p "le received, we feel it to be our duty to propose to Par-
enttla that the duty on hops shall be reduced from 8/. Ils.
.4.2_41,. Ios. The effect of that will be. not to effect materially
;;,'" cultivation of hops, but to prevent an extravagant price.
. 7L the
estimate how great 'a reduction her Majesty's Government
74vt-rned in duties on the articles of life, the House must look
.• eistence.of
set the \thole; look at the articles mainly necessary to the sub-
the people, and can you deny that, having made this
material reduction, we are justified in calling on the manufac-
turer to submit to a reduction in those duties which are sup-
-posed to constitute his protection. There' are very material
errors made with regard to the comparative cost of living in
this and in foreign Countries. If we institute a comparison,
' Particularly with respect to the' inhabitants of large towns on
the Centinent,• it will be found that the expense of living
•, is almost as great as in this country. Take the case of Brus-
' eels, for instance.—( The tight Hon. Baronet here read a letter
from the . British representative at Brussels, stating
• I.hat :in makiek the comparison of the cost of
*.• living in • this- country and on the Continent allowance
• was not itequently enough made for the municipal
' (lee, exaes,eil on the Continent for provisions. Thus thi town
Anus of rttssels had all but doubled the charge on articles
svitlai• he last tee: years, from 1830 to 1840. Tit, duties on
I areiC leviable on entering a town were frequently higher
e,
than -on passing the frontier. Now, supposing the answer I
have given I n the subject of the reduction of the duty on
. :articles of food is not entirely satisfactory—there is yet
another conclusive ground, independently of the cost of these
articles, on which I would vindicate the reduction. I say that
‘ *these high duties are a mere delusion ; they do nit constitute
.I.l`.Ptotection to the home manufacturer; he
rests entirely upon
i. an imaginary support—the check is the smuggler.—( Hear,
'.hear.) It is a mere delusion to tell the manufacturer
!pat we retain a duty of thirty and forty per cent.
'',.,.o',he is robbed of that protection in an illicit manner.
.11,74. veSir. just let me read a letter which I hold in my hand;
• from
this is important in order to remove the uneasy feelings
certainty from the minds of the manufacturers Let me read a letter
1 smuggler...--(
(Hear, and laughter.). The letter is
datecini_ z not addresse me.—( Hear, and laughter.) It is
reeans,4ee_., IE4I, and it comes from a man of, very large
Oho has -

derful discovery of steam, and the great facilities tha 1
it would afforu for bringing, from Aberdeen and other parts
of Scotland, enormous quantities of food for the London thar-
ket-if he had also been told that the produce of Ireland
should be increased to an enormous degree, I apprehend that
the English grazier would have felt a panic twice as great as
that which lately existed. He would have held it was utterly
impossible for him to contend with the importlttiona from Ire-
land and Scotland. Now lam quite ready to admit that,
with respect to Ireland and Scotland, being parts of tha
United Kingdom, they are entitled to the import of rattle.
Will it be denied that 10.000 head of cattle imported :corn
Scotland and Ireland would have the same effect on the lime
market as if they were brought from foreign countries!` I do
not say that Ireland and Scotland aboald rkst tin the same foot-
ingas foreign countries, nor that foreign countries have the same
right to claim the attethaion of their cattle on the same favoured
terms as Ireland and Scotland, which are parts of the United
Kingdom. All I say is, that the expected increase from Ire-
land and Scotland would produce the same effect on
the English market, as if it proceeded from Ham=
burg, or any other part of the Continent.-( Ileae, hear, )
If twenty years ago you had to!d an Engliali grazier to what
an extent the importation of cattle from Ireland would in con-
sequence of the application of steam to navigation have been
carried, would he not, I ask you, have considered that the price of
cattle must be so reduced in consequence that he could stand
no chance ? Now what has been the result? ilOtwith-
standing this enormously increased impertalioli, the price of
cattle has increased, the price of meat has increased--
and increased in a manner deserving of the most serious
consideration, and this notwithstanding the increased im-
portation from Ireland and Scotland. I will take the Navy
estimates in the article of fresh meat. I find in 1835 that the
contract price for fresh meat in the Navy estimates was 355. a
cwt. In 1837 it was 425. a cwt., in 1838 it was 415., in 1839
it was 465., in 1840 it was 485., and in 1841 it was 495. a cwt.
So that the price of fresh meat has increased from 359, a cart,
in 1835 to 495. a cwt. in 1841, notwithstanding the increase on
the importation of cattle dour Scotland and Ireland. The
contract price for fresh meat supplied for the use of Green-
wich Hospital, was in 1835 40s, 4 cwt. I imagine they are
supplied with meat of better quality there than they are
in the Navy. The contract price of fresh meat
supplied to Greenwich Hospital has risen from 40s.
a cwt. in 1835, to 565. a cwt. In 184 L In 1835, in
Leadenhall-market, the contract price of fresh meat for the
supply of shipping was 365. a cwt. Itt 1841 It was 48s. This
shows that notwithstanding the ittereesed importation of cattle
slite
porke o fpfro provisions, le o
u from Scotland and Ireland, there has been a great rise in the
pr
nss'e
of
he
Nntw 11:‘,!, a nv
ys take
Al
i theth i as rttoiocle
goesof saltto
swell p pork-
salt kt
the
e
amount of the Nay'-
of salt Pori,. estimates. In 1835 the price of the tierce
was 4/. 14s. Bd. ; in 1841 it was 71. 35.. 3d.-
) The rise has been a gradual rise. In 1837 it was
4s. ; in 1838 it was Si. 19s. ; in 1839 it was 61 lls. ; in
1840 it was 6/. 15s. t and in 1841 the price of the tierce of salt
pork for the use of the Navy was 71. 3s. 3d. from 4/. 14s. Bd.,
the price in 1835. Now take the instance of Greenwich Hos-
pital. The cost of meat for Greenwich Hospital was in 1841
4,420/. more than the cost of meat for the same establishment
in 1835. The household expenses had, however, increased in
1841 above 1835 12,000/. Surely I hove said enough to show
that, notwithstanding the great importation from Scotland and
Ireland, there has been that continual progress in tin, price of
meat, which makes it desirable to open a more free trade. Who
can deny it? Does not the comparison of 1841 and 1835
show that something must be done.--( Hear, hear.) The po-
pulation is increasing more rapidly than the means of supply.
But it is said there is a disorder among the cattle. And is
not that conclusive also that importation on a freer scale ought
to take place.--( Hear, hear.) There ought not to be abso•
lute prohibition, but the means of obtaining a supply from
other places. The duty we mean to propose is a duty of Id.
per pound on the importation of fresh Meat and meat slightly
salted, and of I/. on the importation of cattle. The chief ex-
ception is taken to the uniform rate of 1/. per head on cattle.-
( Hear, hear.) But in estimating the amount of danger to
domestic produce from this, we must consider what is the area
of Continental Europe with which we are to compete. With
respect to corn, the principle was different, for that could be
obtained from the most distant parts of the world, and it could
be obtained from Odessa and New York as well as from I an-
cashire ; but are there not natural difficulties which diminish
the chances:of competition in the article of meat?--( Hear, hear. )
Let me separate the case of lean cattle from fat.--( Great
laughter.) And I think I can prove completely to the English
grazier that the facility to the importer of lean cattle will
confer nothing lint advantage on him.-( Hear, hear.) I can
show him that there is no description of profit which
has been reduced in so great a degree as the profit
derived from the feeding of lean cattle-(Hear, hear)-
which, indeed, has almost ceased to be a profit.--( Hear, hear.)
I admit importation is carried on to a great extent from
parts of Ireland arid Scotland, but I can show you by a re-
ference to documents such an increase in the price of lean
cattle brought into this country, as makes the trade scarcely
one of profit at all.-( Hear, hear.) Ido not think it will
be denied that the competition of lean cattle from the Con-
tinent would be a great advantage. I have made inquiries
on this point among some of the first graziers, and I find the
profit on feeding cattle is reduced almost to nothing, and I
do believe the feeding would cease but for the manure. By
feeding lean cattle 1 am benefiting the agriculturists, who
are employed to supply cattle for market. But supposing I
placed any duty according to the weight of cattle, I should
defeat the object of my lion. Friend, because the weightof lean
cattle varies much. In respect to lean cattle, there would be
difficulty in applying the duty according to the weight. Now let us
take the case of the importation of fat cattle. From
what country would your competition in this respect come ?
No man would argue much danger of importation from Spain
or Portugal. I don't suppose in the course of years a single
ox, fat or lean, crosses the Bay of Biscay.-(A laugh.) Well,
then, take France ; let us consider whether there would be
any danger of competition there. Now, if you will make in,
quiries into the case of France with respect to cattle, you will
have ground fer apprehension that the supply is rapidly falling
off. In respect to France, there is means of procuring infor-
mation with respect to the supply.of cattle, and I want to
show you that there is no danger of the importation of cattle,
fat or lean, from France. 1 can show that for the last four
years France has been an importing and not an exporting
country of cattle ; and ff we go through the whole of the last
12 or 15 years, the balance of imports is greatly increased. But,
notwithstanding that France does import so largely, the supply
of meat does not keep pace with the increase of population. Let
us take the prices in France upon a comparison in 86 towns
and departments. In 1822 the price of beef, on the average
of those 86 markets, was 7id. per kilogramme. In 1839 the
price had risen to 9di. per kilogramme ; and in the same period
the price of mutton had risen from 7id. to ,id. In Paris the
average price of all sorts of meat was, in 1822, no more than
8d ; but on the 10th of March 1841 the price had risen from
80. which was the price in 1822, to 14d. ; and this notwith-
standing the increased importation.-( Hear, hear.) In 1822
the price of oxen in Paris was '29.6 francs, or about 121. per
head. In 1839 it was 322 franes, or about 16/. In 1841 it
was 459 francs, or about 19/. 10s. Now if there is so great a
danger from the foreign supply, how is it that prices have risen
from 121. to 191. in the years from 1822 to 1839 ?
Is it because the foreigners did not import oxen
into France ? It is not. Foreign oxen have been
imported into France ; but they have not prevented the in-
crease of prices, nor have they been sufficient to equal the de-
mand, so that there had been a decrease in the individual con-
sumption. There has been a great diminution in the consump-
tion of meat. From 1837 to 1840 it was represented by 48 cart.
12Ibs. I think I have shown conclusively that there is no danger
to be apprehended from competition. Now with respect to
Belgium. The Minister of Belgium saw the alarm which
prevailed in this country, and he writes, that with respect to
the low price at which meat will be brought into Great Bri-
tain, it cannot be, as has been stated, as low as 3d. per
potted, because the price in the Belgian market is at this
time twice that amount. Well, then, Holland, I apprehend,
is not a country from which we can expect to derive any
great consumption, for the price of cattle in that
country will prevent any great supply. Spain is out
of the question ; France, Belgium, and Holland offer no sup-
ply ; Prussia is an importing rather than an exporting coun-
try. The only danger I apprehend is from Holstein and Jut-
land. But the facilities of exportation from these places can-
not be so great as from Aberdeen; and, recollecting the
numerous quantity of cattle brought from Ireland and Scot-
land, comparing Holstein and Jutland with Yorkshire, and
many other parts of the country, I ask who ther there is any
chance of a competition from those places, which will mate-
rially affect the interests of the English agriculturist? I say,
at once, if you can make some reduction in the
price of meat in the London market-above all, if
you can provide a security against such an in-
crease in the price of meat, it must be a great convenience
and advantage to all classes of the community in this country,
to agriculturists as well as ethers.--( Hear.) But I say the
extent of the area from which competition is to take place is
such that no danger to the interests of agriculture can fairly be
apprehended; that there is no danger, at least, of a reduction
of the price to lid. per lb. The quality of the meat is far
better. Now take the meat on the Continent at 4d. a pound,
and compare it with the meat sold in the London market at
7id., or Bd., for you can form no safe inference of the quality
by the difference in the price. Ido not despair of this-I do
not despair of seeing you an exporting country. With the
great improvement going on in science, and the application of
those improvements to agriculture, 1 do nut despair
of seeing you arrive at the necessity of exporting
cattle.-( Hear.) Look at France. In the countries from which
France imports her cattle, I am glad to see England men-
tioned among the number. Your own mutton is far superior
tothe mutton on the Continent.-( A laugh.) Ido believe that
at this moment, legs of mutton arc taken from Hull to Ham-
busgh for consumption there. Well, now, take the whole of the
case above, and look at the gradual increase in the price of meat
in this country. I want to establish some check upon this.
Urn the whole, I have vindicated the course which her Ma-
jesty's Government has taken in removing the prohibition, and
reducing the price of meat-at least,reducing the duty affecting
the import of cattle. It is said-" Why not impose a duty in
proportion to the value of the cattle ?" I say it is almost im-
possible to apprehend any such importation as will be inju-
rious to the country. Every foreign country imposes a duty
on thesame principla upon which we lay it. In Prussia, the
duty on foreign meat is not levied ad valorem. In Belgium
the duty is 20 francs, applicable to all cattle. 1 should be
sorry to see this great metropolis-seeing the immense addition
to the imports from Ireland, derive no benefit. from the great
improvement in s earn navigation. My object is to reduce the
price of neat in London. therefore, I lay a duty of 1/. per head
on cattle, because, I consider that from the limited area from
which cattle would come in, laying on a duty ad valorem, would
have the tffect of discouraging importation. In London, jou
slaughler, and in London you consume 150,000 head of cattle,
all slaughtered meat of the country. What country would
ever supply that! Can you apprehend. that more than 10,060
head woult. come ? The total consumption of the country is
from 1,300,090 to 1,500 000 head. Is there any chance, looking
to the high srice of meat and the amount of consumption, of
any material injury to the agriculturists? I think the argument
entirely faits, The proof is quite decisive. I consider, there-
fore, acting rn the principle we have done with respect to the
tariff-I can', think there is any conceivable ground upon
which to increase the duty on foreign cattle or meat. The
import of catt e from Ireland has greatly increased in the last
few years, yet this has not affected the price, which has, not-
withstanding, tone on increasing. With their increasing popu-
lation, you nee! not fear the effect of this importation, while
it will give a security against an exorbitant increase of price in
times of scare{(,. With respect to horses, there is only a duty
of 1/. per head in importation of horses of all sizes. Why had
there nut, then, 'seen an importation of horses into this country?
For several year. there has not been an importation of more
than 400 per annum. In 1841 you imported 339 horses, while
you exported 4,5,16. I shall rejoice to see the time when this
will be the ca:e with respect to cattle, and from the
improvements in agriculture, I do not despair of seeing it.
These are the gro Inds, then, on which,l rest the propositions of
her Majesty's Govtrnment, and I do hope that I have so far
satisfied the mind sf my Right Hon. Friend that he may dis-
pense with the amendment of which he has given notice. If
he moves that amendment, I shall feel it my duty to offer him
a res,iectful but decided resistance, and I shall be curious to
know by what argunents my Noble Friend will be able to sup-
port an increase in the duty on foreign cattle. I have felt it my
duty to enter upon these statements from some undue advantage
having been taken of the tariff by some pretended sympathisers
with the farmers. At the same time, a full communication with all
parties has confirmed the Government in the opinion it enter-
tains, that an advantage will result to all parties, including the
agriculturists themselves, from the reductions I propose to
make in the duties on' foreign meat and foreign cattle ; and,
above all, from the removal of the complete prohibition the
Government found existing
when it undertook the considera-
tion of the subject. I have now fulfilled the purpose for which

..,11. y
• a wee;tly intercourse with this metropolis. He
says" it / . --- .
glOVeg,'.' 'ini able to forward you articles of lace, blonde, silk,
the 1003de:elle-. y,
&c., by the indirect channel—(Laughter)—
; at ibis , t'l be received in London the same day as they arrive
dualet :rtif,t, and to be delivered by a discreet and trusty indivi-
fo;(6"( Loud laughter. ) The letter proceeds to set
• :hash tthe Per-centage difference between the prices at
:.,,::
rn.aliatonfot clear
he writer could furnish the goods, and the regular
• 7-.°Pdon market price ' The Bight Hon. Baronet continued:
that' it is a positive advantage to the domestic
' actOrer that he should be aware of the extent of this
i . competo' . liirlii,„ I_,art, and that he should not be exposed to a secret,
''. IR) br-g) 4nd unseen comtetition, against which be could take
~' beer,-s,"lr'etift ?--(Hear, hear. There is a'case which has
-• • e • - erme,,,h.
of myself and my col-
s • seagnes.,,e_ s under
,the consideration
e ,eolieit:•, s mean that of the straw-plait manufacturers. Their
' pre4-:), ,has been reported to us, and on account of those re-
' : thitv4,l")ns we have been induced to make an increase in the
~.,she„."' go from 55. to 7s. 6d. I hope that will enable
re-
,', ,t
"s,:...stsf) better their condition. But at the same time
~.
e4xt.. .e.ttititi.ontso
of benefit
them how delusive are their
benetit from a high protecting duty:
'll Pr"ent, the duty upon the raw material in this country is
the
more than Id. per hundred• weight, whilst the duty upon
Anythreanufaetured article is the extravagant one of 17s.
.6d.
In ohh ease, as in others, there are great facilities for smuggling.
•The ot-ei‘ case, there is a duty of 17s. 6d.. per hundred-weight ;in
1-4,, "er, there is a gain of 17s. NL per hundred-weight.
ki le again, I say, is a complete and decisive proof of the little
ent"tege which is derived to the domestic manufacture of this
ar-el4llry from duties which may i asily be evaded. Now these
tr the geheral grounds upon which I vindicate the reduction
the le • duties on articles of foreign manufacture, upon
atithdeahle groend, first of showing that we have made
es i a reduction in the cost of subsistence as justifies
etd,l' -r
ae
educing the duties upon foreign mufactures ;
ie man 'et°aell}', of showing that the existing rates of duties are
I\o Y cases so high as to afford no protection whatsoever.
dor:, Si''' I wish to come to another point of the tariff. 1
SarntBaY that by stating the amount of reduction I propose on .th'e articles of foreign produce, tending to diminish thereby
bathe of of living in this• country, I have, as far as I have
eoteror."lg.one, caused some alarm to the producers of those
eee,42mies in this country. I speak of those who are tone
this , t!1 the production of cattle and in the supply of mea in
beve,intr.Y. I want to address myself to that case, and I
•etteh...elt More confident than I do now that. I shall bef
esiti:ll to show that the removal of prohibitions in the case o
lUet-I.atid the reduction of the duty on the import of foreign
flora 1:s not only justifiable put is demanded by a full considera-
, the ii°' the intr:rests o' this country.—( Hear, hear.) Now in
.rivt,'lt'place it is quite an error to suppose that any class de-
- )ti tilea advantae from a high rate of living in this countryh.
-• lie .. first
n._ thes Plate, there is no man—whatever the article whic
' ~"4tor."-C,there is no man, if there be a general reduction in the
),,ette ,-;'`ving, but must derive very great advantage from that
' Zs' re.; 'eduction Looking to individual articles, parties may
el44,',e.,(lttisom.e suffering and some loss, but they must set
tkt ll'at."natt.h.general reduction in other articles. Let us look O
Zie : WPf the poor-rates for the last four years. The price of
'''Y 't,-,,Lea of -b ' tenee has been high of late years o
Ise'eri tys'Y ithiannk stilts at the posr-rates have fallen with pecu.iar
,4%; ePott the'landed interest of the country.
_During_allleies
Barslke: I find that the poor• rates in England and W
Nt. -, 1837 to , •'-.1 0001. ;in 1838 (which was the
Nei '°l the -.
• a'-' ' (mat), to 5,186,00(1 ; in
'l6 to a,. - minimum are .
to 044 - 0.6L1,000/. ; and in 1841, they amounted
I,„%tatiss 'AV. lam quite aware that there has been in this
Wilie,'a.general apprehension, and what is called a genet al
•4" ht-:)°ll the sb'•t f the importation of live cattle. It
Jo.. t u jec .o 4 te.-Z, onstantly represented to me that it would be but
144 zoi'ai_t• to that apprehension, and that it was in vain to
11,eospillitilost it. Now, I venture. to differ altogether from
ev... Psi- n• Ido not think that it would be consistent with
,t of ' interest of this
hear -7' a real friend to the agricultural
t') 14 defer to their unjust apprehensions.—(Hear,
tilt);
I Mel-
Nolo d...t, it that it would be perfectly wise, perfectly
stiiiietisioti:r !* to sound arguments,. to defer to justifiable ap.
1,.' tttitl i*, but it would not be right to conciliate the agri-
tet-: to-iit't: rests by unwise concessions—it would not be
.ek eke C,Y., I them to rest on the unstable foundation of pro-
ttel'eat. l'e'.---(llear ) No step I could take would guard
to ,;si.'lers*:4' Panic that has arisen; but let me observe,
tats tyre Panic
of the apprehensions entertained was owing
t's‘i- li,nrestances besides the contemplated changes in the
tt.64, th,toties will believe advertisements in Ihe newspapers,
„est-IllessLoleat can be supplied from Hamburgh at three-
-I,`"atin re, "d, and if people will believe these advertisements,
4410014 T them. I believe that a little inquiry would show
~01111.-Sqf liletof Messrs. something, with a fine name in
:er t,,` '4'lllo offered to make the su iply, did not exist at
Iree,L.4tie,i' Inear.) Parties will find. .tihat the towns which
Peoer
?'°,- 2 the manufacturing districts of the couotry. at
Indio`' Zr pound, are at present themselves paying six-
hare ir)Vid ; and my belief is, that interested parties, pr-
taki, insert Pa.thy with the people of those districts,
the „.....R, IEO ,those advertisements fur the purpose of
11400, ,4"La.ritage a the tariff ; and I trust that
letivel the futeh has taken place in bringing. it forward, has in-
LI, 1,1, ormation of a more correct judgment on the sub 7
-iPtve he'al,:liat the cattle panic is of itself fast dying
_away. I
pest Pertaceatints from recent fairs, particularly in the
ti.,_ that ~, lof this country, which show that those who ex-
irnegwitisbeipinesoti
p;4lppoiot,`;.e prices of cattle will Ore reduced, shall be much
'ateti'lear";:u. y Itharthue of cattle, I am not
eettts;roaot 2 state that the priees of car°tetnldenacitiielonmnathheavperiebeeennf
etle • '''Y hi,gh in this con
lark!,
r,(Iloo. it will not be suchntr- ' and.
AM abu (14turb the relations h between that, if you can effect
Z, e out toestablish, by conclusive one as to affect the price of
I!,(itZettrity, if
you can, against an extravagantPrnnf'
e !teen landlord and tenant. I
that
pyrojuroooufgmhteatto,
English arise from a defective supply. Supposing any
, fifteen years ago,
• kazier had b Id
been to
of the won-

I rose, which was to state the 'general scope'of the commereril
arrenreemeots prepottfl tett Her Majesty's deVernitienf, Ind iii
tindie,ate those pi-thins of it which have been most exposed to
tieeptions, from many gentlemen who were the most strenuous
advocates of the principles of free trade ; for, with respect to
the principles themselves, I apprehend there can be but little
differente--(ChterS)—that is to see; with respect to the ad-
vantage of purchasing in the cheapest inerket.--(Cheers. ) I
know the meaning of that cheer, but I do not Wish ndw to
enter into discussion with respect to the article to which dq
exception has . been made the eat-t. Cie df Strlar. I
have slatted, ~till tid it;ilitilt to suite again, the reasons
iitY make this article an exception from
rules generally applicable; but I do nut wish to enter
now into this discussion. Some objections have been
made to this arrangement on account of its limited extent. It
has been said that the question ought to have been dealt with
with a more unsparing hand. I am, however, of a different
opinion. I think we have gone far enough, and that if we had
made a greater change with respect to the Corn-laws, it would
enly hate aggieivated the distress under which the country la-
bouts. I think, considering all the contingent circumstances,
we hare made as great a change as is justifiable. It is impos-
sible to deal with such great interests within. feeling their vast
importance, and in doing set we tiettst take tare to do as little
injury as liosChlO tb individual interests. I have acted on the
prinelpies laid down by Mr. linskisson, with whom I acted in
18:25, in carrying out • Ifs commercial reforms; it is
in the temper and spirit of his words that I
sod my colleagues hive acted, an 4 have attempted
to act. We have attempted to simplify the tariff, but with
care and circumspection, 30 that as small an amount
of individual suffering as possible shall be inflicted. I deeply
regret that it should be necessary to create any, or even the
apprehensions of it ; but if you admit that objections on that
ground ought to weigh against the change, then you mint
postpone it indefinitely.—( Heir, hear.) I sincerely hope that
the result will be an ineraese of the command over the enjoy-
ments and comforts of life on the part of industry. We hive
made this proposal in a time of considerable financial difficulty,
setting the example to other countries not, to seek to repair
their finances by restrictions on commerce and trade with
foreign countries, and I regret that other enlightened commu-
nities have not done the same, but, at the same time,
I am bound to say that I think it is for the interest
of this country to buy cheap, even if other countries
will not buy cheap too. Notwithstanding temporary
obstructions, I believe that the example of England will finally
prevail, and though other countries may entertain a delusive
hope of repairing their finances by restrictive duties, yet ex-
perience would prove that they would not succeed; a loss of
revenue would he the consequence. What was the consequence
of restriction and prohibition in Spain, where they existed in
full force ? Why, eternal conflicts on the frontier, and no revenue.
In the United States of America, I am sorry to say, the same
attempt has been made; and in the empire of Russia, where the
attempt to fetter manufactures will bring its own punishment.
The example of England, if she pursue her course
in the right path, must tell on foreign countries; and if they re-
sort to a contrarylsolley, that ought not to discourage you.
Act on the Priisciples you 'believe to be sound, and though
they may be for a time unprofitable to yourselves, yet they
will tell to your advantage among those who are wise enough
to follow them
Mr. LABOUCHERE said it would be better to discuss the
tariff when the details came before the 'House, but he thought
this was a favourable opportunity for making some general
observations. He had heard the principles just laid down with
great pleasure. Those principles were, to a great degree, those of
the late Government, as well as the measures; and he was sorry,
at the time they were introduced, a party struggle should have
deprived the country of the benefit of them. The Right lion.
Baronet had occupied considerable time in meeting the objec-
tions that had been made to the effect of parts of the tariff.
That sense of injustice was mainly founded on a belief that he
had dealt with the great question of the Corn-laws in a very
different manner to what he had adopted in dealing with minor
interests. He could assure the Right Hon. Gentleman that it
was the feeling of the late Government that a Corn-law,
founded on a just commercial principle, was necessary for the
foundation and corner-stone of every honest and effectual tariff
reform.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman told the
House of a gcotch correspondent of his, who told him
that he was a very good free trader in everything
except herrings. Be (Mr. Labouchere) was like that
Scotch gentleman—he thought the Right .Hon. Gentleman a
very good free trader in everything except the articles of corn
and timber.—( Hear, hear.) There was another very impor-
tant exception, which, however, he did not wish to eater on
now, as it would come more fully under theconsideration of the
House at a future period, and that was the article of sugar.
—(Hear, hear.) The main anti essential difference between
the measures of the late Government and those of the present
advisers of her Majesty was, that whereas the late Government
thought it impossible to bring in any general measures of com•
mercial reform, which must materially affect so many classes
of the community, without dealing boldly and fairly with the
question of the Corn-law, and so important an article in the
consumption of this country as sugar, the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman had introduced his commercial reform, dealing, as he
(Mr. Labouchere) thought in a very unsatisfactory manner,
with corn, and wholly leaving out sugar. He could not,
therefore, on these grounds, but retain his opinion that the
measures of the late Government were more just, more satis-
facfory, and more effectual than the proposals of her Majesty's
present advisers.--( Hear, hear.) He could assure the Right
Hon. Gentleman that he saw a great deal most valuable in
the tariff which he had laid before the House; he viewed with
great pleasure the greater part of the alterations now proposed,
and he was satisfied that the effect they would have on the com-
merce and manufactures of this country would be most bene-
ficial.—( Hear, hear.) He would not follow the Right lion.
Gentleman through the whole of his statements; he quite
agreed with him that the most favourable and useful parts of
the measure were principally those which had incurred the
greatest opposition throughout the country. He believed that
what the Right Hon. Gentleman said about the importance
of reducing the duties on woods, minerals, and oils, was per-
feeder true. A circumstance was stated by his Noble
Friend on a late occasion which came within his
(Mr. Labouchere's) own knowledge, and which was
alone sufficient to show how important it was, with
reference to the shipping interest, to reduce the duty
on copper; it was this—a house in London had cons
tracrest last year, at the same time, with the British Ad.
miralty and the French Admiralty, to copper-bottom a quan-
tity of vessels, and the French Admiralty had their ships 15
per cent. under what they were supplied to the English at—
nay, more than that, he believed that ships which used to come
here to be coppered went now to Rotterdam and Hasnburgh,
because they could be done so.much cheaper there than here.
In the same way with regard to furniture woods, to oils, to fish,
to potatoes, and to many other -articles to which the Right
Hon. Gentleman had referred. The Right Hon. Gentleman
had truly said, that in many of those cases in which parties
complained of protection which had been taken from them, in
point of feet the protection now served them nothing, because
the smugglers stepped in and deprived them of all the benefit
they might otherwise derive. He alluded particularly to the
subject of lace, and that reminded him (Mr. La-
bouchere) of a document which he received when in
the Board of Trade, and which, though a private
communication, he had inserted in the records for the benefit
of his successors , it was from the lace makers, praying him
to reduce the duty on foreign lace ; the smuggling had become
so notorious that the trade themselves were convinced tht t it
was doing them more harm than a moderate duty would do,
and that the only protection 'which they could have against
their foreign rivals would be the imposition of a moderate duty.
The night Hon. Gentleman had alluded—though he said he
did not wish again to discuss the question—to;.the Corn-laws,
as an instance of his having been successful In reducing the
price of one great necessary of life ; he said, " look to the duty
on foreign corn, and compare it with what it would have been
had the old law been in force." He (Mr. Labouchere) ad-
mitted that the terminal duty was less than it would have been,
but then he imagined that the
was
of the sliding scale
stepped in, and that corn as effectually excluded
now as it had been under the old law.—( Hear,
hear.) No fore'gn corn came into the market now ;
the truth was, that speculators all believed that prices would
rise, and that the duty would fall still lower, and thus the nrw
sliding scale was operating precisely in the same manner as the
old scale operated, arid the foreign corn was held back, and
none of it came into consumption under the present law.—
( Hear, hear.) He would not trouble the House with any
further observations; he would only assure the Right Hon.
Gentleman that he should enter into the discussion of this tariff
with every wish to do it justice; he should bring forward no
petty quibbles, no violent and unnecessary opposition. He was
sure that they would be passing the time unnecessarily if they
attempted to discuss whether an article should be is. more or

meats or the, purpose of rehuttingihe statement that the
ketilritent had beep, converted to' principles which it had
hitherto opposed. He tilißts Irweyer, enter hi. decided pro-
teet against' the truth of tne allNtitloft; thet there had
been a change of principle on the part of the GosWrnetant.
Those who had watched the progress of events during the late
wars'and who remembered that his Right lion. Friend had
supported the measures for the reform of the tariff, which were
ihtradused by Mr, Ifuskissor,) would see that he could not be
jtistly Charged with having abandoned his former opinions.—
(ilettie
,fl6af. ) It tied been, stated that. the .principles upon
which the proposed alteratioeis pfoce:.•ded were instorieally
ass miated " with the late Administration. Were the lithe a
fitting rine he would be prepared to show that there was no
justice whatever in such a claim ; and that, in point of fact,
taking the twenty-seven years which had elapsed since the
war, there were no seven years which had been less fruitful in
commercial legislation than the seven years of the late Admi-
nistration.—(llear. ) He said this merely in answer to the
allegations on the other, side.—(Hear.) Ho thought that all
they had to do was to proceed at once to the discussion of the
measures before the 'House, and not to inquire who had the
honour of firs' propounding ,the principles on which they were
founded.—( Hear, heap, )
Mr. ROCHE said, as the representative of the largest
agricultural constituency in Ireland, he could not but feel a
deep interest in the ineanees propounded be the Government.
He had always been a sincere and open advocate of the prin-
ciples of free trade, but on she Fresent occasion he had great
difficulty in coming to a conclusion. . He believed, however,
after full consideration, that the ultimate result of the Corn-
law would be to inflict serious injury in Ireland.—( Hear, hear. )
He could not understand why one principle had been applied
~to corn, and another to provisions. If a sliding scale were ne-
cessary to prevent corn from falling to ruinously low prices,
surely it was equally necessary with respect to meat.. As he
I thought, however, that many benefits would be conferred by
the proposed alteration, he would not vote against it.
Mr. G. PALMER said thit the measures which the late
President of the Board of Trade had brought forward last year
were similar to those which were now proposed by the Right
Hon. Baronet when on the other (the Opposition) side of the
of the House. He (Mr. Palmer) had opposed those measures,
and he would therefore now feel himself bound in conscience
to offer his opposition to the' measures proposed by the Right
lion. Baronet. Had the Right Hon. Baronet stated last year
what his opinions were, very different indeed would have been
the division, and different would have been the result on the
hustings. As for himself (Mr. Palmer), had he avowed himself
the supporter of such measures, he would not have obtained 50
votes. He thought the agriculturists had great reason to be
alarmed at the measures proposed by the Right Hon. Baronet.
Those measures would not be attended with those bene•
ficial results to other classes which were expected, and ulti-
mately the Right Hon. Baronet would be compelled to repeal
the Corn-laws altogether. The same engine which had been
brought forward in the case of the Reform Bill—the multitude
—would be again brought into operation.
Colonel SIBTHORP had,. listened with great attention to
the speech of the Right Hon. Baronet—a speech marked by
ingenuity and subtlety, but which he disliked for nothing so
much as for the applause which it elicited from the. Hon.
Member for Montrose.—(Niess Hume.) The Right lion.
Baronet was charmed by Hon. Members on the ether side,
and particularly by the lion. Member for Montrose—
(Laughter)—but he ought to be more on his guard.—
( Laughter.) His motto ought to be
" Timeo Damaos et done ferentes."
He thought there were several things which ought to be in-
troduced into the tariff, and which were omitted, especially fat
cattle and meat. He regretted that the Hon. Baronet had yielded
•se much, and further concessions would be required of him.
On the Order of the Day for the House resolving itself into
a Committee upon the Customs Acts,
Lord HOWICK said that he would postpone the motion of
which he had given notice.—(Hear, hear.) He begged leave to
give notice that when it. was again proposed to go into Com-
mittee on the subject, he would propose it.
The motion was then withdrawn.
Major VIVIAN said that the Noble Lord having with-
drawn his motion, he begged leave " to move for any addi-
tional details which may have been supplied by Mr. Meek to.
' the Government, relative to the -importation of agricultural
produce, salt provisions, &c., or any passage or passages which
may have been suppressed." He found, on comparing the
original Report with that laid on the table, that something
very important to agricultural produce had been kept back.
The observations of Mr. Meek, at the end of the Report, were
well deserving the consideration of the agricultural Members.
Mr. Meek there stated that " salt meat, imported from Ham.
burgh, would afford a sufficient profit," and that he thought was
well deserving the attention of lion. Members.
Lord WORSLEY seconded the motion. He thought it
was most important that this information should be laid on the
table, and he hoped Government would not refuse it, as if they
did, it would increase the panic which the measures already
proposed had caused.
The question having been put by the SPEAK E
Mr. GLADSTONE rose. His great objection to the mo-
tion of the lion. Gentleman was, that there had been no sup-
1-ession or omission of information. The only suppression
that had taken place was the name of a party at Hamhurgh, but
the information he gave had been laid before the House. He
objected to the motion ; first, because it was in the power of
the Government to suppress any information they received if
they thought proper; and, secondly, that, in the present in-
stance, no information had been suppressed.
Mr. M. ATT WOOD thought that all the information which
the Government were in possession of ought to be. laid before
the House. So far femia there having been an alarming increase
in the price of butchers meat, there had been, with the eeeep...'
tion of the last two years, a gradual decline in the price since
1818, He thought that the best course would be to leave the
matter without interference, and the temporary inconvenience
would cure itself.
Sir R. PEEL was surprised that the Right Hen. Gentleman
went hack to 1818, whereas lie (Sir R. Peel) had carried
back his comparison of prices only to 1835, since which there
had been a constant and alarming increase of the price of meat.
—(Hear.) With respect to the present motion, there must
be a very gross breach of privilege somewhere.—( Hear, hear. )
The Report of Mr. Meek ivas prepared for the confidential
information of her Majesty's Ministers only, and they had given
to the House all the substantial information which the Report
communicated.—(Hear, hear.) Communications were re-
ceived from individuals who disclosed all they knew, but
upon the condition that their names should not be diselosed.—
( llear, hear.) If such conditions were to be disregarded,
there would be an end-le- all confidence;- -and he hoped the
House would not compel the Government to be a party to such
a gross violation of confidence. —( Hear, hear.)
Mr. M. ATTWOOD explained.
Lord J. RUSSELL said, that if the information asked for
would cause inconvenience to the Government, or involve any
breach of confidence, he would be the last person in the House
to support the motion of the Hon. Gentleman who asked for it.
But he thought that the Right Hon. Gentleman the Vice-
President of the Board of Trade, in refusing the production of
the return, had taken away all reason for refusing it,
He did not attribute any blame to the Government, for no
publishing the passages in question, but he thought that now,
that they had been asked for the information, the best course-
they could pursue, would be at once to produce it.
Mr. S. WORTLEY said that he could not but regret that,
at a moment when the House was about to enter on the consi-
deration of the important 'subject of the tariff, Hon. Gentlemen
should have thought it worth their while to waste the time of
the House—( Hear, hear, from the Ministerial benches)—upon
a motion, -having for its object nothing but the production of
Mpapers, which, they had been assured by two members of her
ajesty's Government, would convey no useful information.
He called upon the House to proceed at once to the considera•
tion of the great question before them, and not 'to run after
shadows, which it would be vain to pursue. Tor his part; be
was satisfied with the explanation given in respect to the
passages in question.
Sir G. GREY felt bound to protest against the course
pursued upon that and every other occasion by Hon. Gentlemen
opposite of imputing a wilful obstruction to the measures of
the Government —(lcer, hear) —to lion. Gentlemen on
that (the Opposition) side of the House, whenever they
thought, upon the eve of discussion of any measure which
was admitted by the Government to be of the utmost. import-
ance—whenever they thought it necessary to ask for informa-
tion which might enable them to come to a right decision.—
( Hear, hear.) He was ready to admit that there had been an
unnecessary delay interposed upon that occasion, but he
should say that the whole of the blame of the delay, if blame
there was, rested with her Majesty's Government. They had,
as it appeared to him, unnecessarily resisted the reasonable
proposition of his Honourable and ' Gallant Friend.
lie was disposed ro rely upon the statements of the Right
Hon. Gentleman opposite that the extracts were immaterial,
and that no blame was imputable to the' Government, but he
thought that the extracts should still he'produced for the in-
formation of lion'. Gentlemen who might think it desirable
that they should be communicated to the House. Ile thought
it established a dangerous precedent if information were re-
fused, not because its production would be• prejudicial to the
public service, but because a member of the Government
stated that he did not think it was material. He should say
that if they were to estabiish such a doctrine it might
be a proof of the omnipotence of the Government,
but w uld at the same time time 'be a proof of a want of a due
regard for the wishes of Members of that House.—( Cheers. )
Lord STANLEY said, that ,notwithstanding the charge
made by the Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman.who had just
sat. down, against his Hon. Friend the Member for. the West
Riding of Yorkshire, he could not but say, that it arpeared to
him, in reference to the present subject, in the first place, that.
there had been a waste of public time.---( Hear, hear.) In the
next place, the flight lion. and (,earned Gentleman had ex- I
Whited a good deal of unnecessary warmth—( Hear, hear)—
in reflecting the imputations which lie supposed had been
thr.iwn upon she Gentleman opposite. All that his (Lord
Stanley's) lion. Friend had said was what he would
himselt venture to repeat, that,. upon that particular motion,
a good deal more had been said than the motien, itself required.
—( Hear, hear.) The papers in question were Very immaterial
-and valueless. The omission in question was not attributed to
.any belief on the part-of the Government that the publication of
the passages would be inconvenient to the Government, but
because they were Considered confidential and irrelevant.
There were but two passages omitted ; one of those passages
consisting of some half dozen or dozen lines containel a practical
suggestion of Mr. Meek, relative to the conduct of his man
department ; and the other omission was that of
the name of a person who heti furnished information. The in-
formation was gisen, but the source was withheld. No mate-
rial point was omittei in the Report of Mr. Meek, and all the
important informatidn he had given was communicated to that.
House. The Noble Lord (Lord John Russell) had said they
were not to blame for having withheld the passage in the first
instance,
given.that although the
information might bei I
mmaterial and valueless, yet it would be
Thethateef
but
Right
Hon.it had
Gentleman
been asked'
or, it ought to be
said,
establishing a dangerous precedent if the Government were to
refuse to give it to the House. —(Cheers,) He (Lord
Stanley) contended that it would he establishing a must dan-
gerous precedent to grant the papers. These communications
but in a manner proving
wet-3 of a confidential nature, and it was complained that the
Government withheld them. It. could only have been by a
committed by other parties,
breach of confidence that any Member could have become pos-
sessed of those documents ; anti was it because the Hon. and
Gallant Member' had become possessed of that information in a
tantlibaalit.ienat( breach
of
ctootyliii:firlmende! nteatbt olsevbetta•ev have
oibn:bs(e'enlfc' called upon to produce these
papers?—(Cheers,) He should oppose the motet:alias tending
to establish a bad precedent.—(o,ce". )
Mr. SHIEL said that it might be a bad precedent for the
Government to give such information, and he would tell them
what was a worse precedent ; it was a worse precedent for the
Government to produce to the House of Commons a document
purporting to be perfect and complete—(Cheers)—and calling
upon the house to legislate upon the information furnished by
If that GovernmentPleiPi—( Loud cheers.)
at least had
that document, at the very-time that they knew that such de-
meant chtwaargseil:ietrlis well ererfolcuendetnz
the" complete,_(
been guilty of suppressio veri.—( Cheers and counter cheers.)
The document purported to he perfect ; it purported to be the
report of Mr. Meek ; the name of James Meek was attachedto
passage had been sup.
(Clieers)—and that
pi tr;es
st(h,de—r et ilvearsenNov
ams ennot inoontem,
taodethtahtart
fraenc3
document was made the foundation upon which they were called
upon to make a great change in the commercial system. if
there had been any note made to the effect that certain pas-'
sages had been omitted, the Government
.would have been
justified in refusing to produce the information required. As it
was, their refusal was without justification.
Sir. MUNTZ considered the simple fact of Minister after
Minister getting up and declaring the documents to be' of no
value, sufficient to justify him in considering the document
to be of very great iroportan* Gentlemen opposite were

Is. less. —( Hear, hear.) He was satisfied that a right con-
clusion was more likely to be arrived at by the Minister of the
Crown consoling with those concerned in his own office, than
by any discussi,ns in the House. He .should, therefore, give
his general support to this tariff, though there were one or two
points on which he differed from the Right Hon. Baronet.
He should, however, reserve his opposition to those few points
in the tariff where he thought right had been violated, or great
and flagrant injustice committed—such as sugar—till another
time ; but he was sure it was quite unnecessary to discuss in
detail 1,200 articles, which were enumerated in the tariff.—
..

( Hear, hear.) On the whole, he viewed the tariff with the greatest
satisfaction, and he rejoiced to say, that though the late Govern-
ment were prevented, from bringing into effect these (measures
when they were a Government, that that which he anticipated
had taken place, and that they had, and should have, the gra-
tification, as independent Members of the House, of giving
it their support when it should come under the consideration of
the House.—( Hear. )
Mr. I)'ISRAELI did not think that the Hon. Gentleman
opposite had succeeded in making out that claim to those pgin-
ciples of free trade, which of late years had been said to be
the peculiar characteristic of the party to Which they belonged.
It was qu to clear that in 1780 the Whigs were opposed to free
trade, for they opposed the introduction of the new measure
of Mr: Pitt into the 'House of Lords. In the House of Lords
the Whigs then had a great preponderance of parliamentary
talent, and there was not a single Member of that party who
did not record, in the most energetic language, his reprobation
of the new principle of commerce introduced by Mr. Pitt.
One of the greatest ornaments to the party in the House of Lords,
Bishop Watson, in the vigorouslanguage which distinguished him,
delivered a speech in tl.c House of Lords against the measure
of Air. Pitt, and concluded with a resolution to.the effect that
the new measure would be dangerous to the State, and was
only called for by a great emergency, which did not then ex-
ist. Several other bright ornaments of the Whig party enter •
tained the same opinion; therefore they could not claim the merit
of having originated these free trade principles, and yet Hon.
Gentlemen opposite hailed with shouts the Right lion. Ba-
ronet's declaration. When the Right lion. Baronet came into
office he merely came to support that line which had been
adopted by his party.
Mr. HUAIE could assure ,the Hon. Member who had ju=t
sat down that he was not prepared to go back to the year 1760
to trace the progress of free trade principles. The Hon. Mem-
ber had stated that shouts of approbation came from that (Vie
Opposition side of the House) when the Right lion. Baronet
expressed his opinion that night. Ho (Mr. Hume) had no
hesitation in saying that he for one expressed his opinion
loudly ; and why, because he hailed the Right Hon. Baronet
as a convert, and those around him as Converts, to free trade,
of which he (Mr. Hume) had been a humble advocate. Was
that no cause of triumph, no reason of rejoicing? He
could say that nothing political had given him so much plea-
sure for 25 years. Twenty-five years ago he had told them that
it was best to go to the cheapest market. He had then heard
Gentlemen opposite say,that such opinions would destroy the
country; and now he found the Cabinet—the Tory. Cabinet
coming forward to advocate those principles. Free trade prin-
ciples were the order of the day. He was delighted to
say so, and to find that so large a majority as that pos-
sessed by the Right Honourable Baronet was to be
applied to a 'pod purpose. He thought the change pro-
posed by the Right Honourable Baronet would cause the
country to rejoice. He bad heard with great satisfaction the
statement of the Right Hon. Baronet. He thought it did him
great credit, and he woul& not upbraid him with any thing that
had passed, for he hoped time and circumstances had changed
him. He (Mr., Hume) should be most anxious to give the
Right Hon. Baronet all the support in his power'. Let him
carry out those principles, and apply them to corn, and he
would soon find the country relieved from difficulty. He only
wished that the Right lion. Baronet had applied to corn the
Fame principles as he had applied in other cases. He must
reform the Corn-laws—the state of the country imperatively
called for a change. With respect to the tariff, as he had be-
fore said, he could not 'A ithhold from it his approval.
Mr. GLADSTONE said he did nut rise for the, purpose of
applying epithets to lion. Gentlemen opposite ; but he would j
ill di.eharge his duty by discussing who were the authors of
the contemplated changes, or by entering into detailed argu-

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY MORNING,- MAY IL 1842.

,
more id-f-terct:-T-da e tn-tli-e-p-roduCtieri of documentsthesdocumentsthan I
those on hie.(-Arr.Nlunt s's) side of the House, and if they sup-
ported Government in their refusal . to produce Ahem,
he trusted they would not hereafter' reproach that
Mr: Mtisrz'S) side of the House with having led them
into C setere. It would be their own fault if they suffered the
Government to Iced them by the nose.—(Cheers and laugh-
-ter.) He judged of the importance of these documents more
from the manner of the Right Hon. Gentleman the President
of the. Board of Trade, than from the matter of his speech ;
and, judging from the .Right Hon.' Gentleman's manner, he
should consider that the papers contained important informa-
tion,—(Cheers. )
Mr. CHRISTOPHER did not believe that the Govern-
ment
had Suppressed any weint information, and there-
fore he could not vote for the motion. —..(Clieers and
laughter:.) He was as desirous of receiving information
as any Honourable Gentleman opposite could possibly be,
and was dissatisfied with the information afforded. More
particularly was he dissatisfied Stith the contradictory state-
ments of Mr. Meek ; and considering the perfect fairness and
candour with which the Right Han. Gentlensan the President
of the Board of Trait—(Cheers, 'laughter. and criesOf " Oh,
olr!")--.hail made his statement; he felt bound to vote With her
Majesty's Government.--( Cheers and laughter. )
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL said this was not the first time
that the Hon. Member for Lincolnshire had' come down to
the House, intending to vote against the Government, but
some singular circumstance had always happened—
either a Minister 'had made a candid statement, or the
conduct of the Opposition had been such as the Hon.
Member could not approve, so that the Hon. Member had in-
variably ended by giving his vote to the Government.—(Cheers
and laughter.) He (Mr. M. J. O'Connell) did not believe
in the panic with regard to the tariff, but still he thought. in-
formation ought to be produced, in order to allay the panic.
In these sorts of cases, honesty was the best policy; and, there-
fore, he.thought the papers ought to be published. If the
Government had any objection to urge against their production,
they might have conveyed an intimation to the Hon. and Gal-
lant 'Member immediately after he had placed his motion on
the paper. They might have communicated to the Hon. and
Gallant Member the substance of the information at all events.
He had never professed the principle of obstruction—( Cheers)
—and how long so ever he might remain in opposition, he
never would; but he trusted that he should never be induced
to withhold his support from a motion' like the present. He
was surprised that the Noble Lord the Secretary for the
Colonies should complain of the warmth and temper
exhibited by that (the Opposition) Side of the House. 'She
Noble Lord was the last man in the world who ought to make
such a complaint :
" Quis tulerit Gracchos de seditione querentes."—(Cheers.)
Mr. LAMBTON thought the statement of the Govern-
ment.perfeetly' satisfactory, and considered it would be esta-
blishing a dangerous ' precedent to, consent to the motion.
The information must have been obtained by a gross breach of
confidence, and the House ought to be told how the Hon.
Member obtained it ;• till they heard that they could not decide
on opposing her Majesty's Ministers.--(Divide, divide. )
Lord SANDON wished to ask the Hon. Member for Bolton
whether the papers were painted by the late Secretary of State
for Foreign Affairs for the use• of the House or nut ?—(Dr.
Bowring did not appear inclined to answer. ) As it was a very
general practice for Hon. Members to put questions to one
another, he hoped.thellon. Member would condescend to give
an answer. •
Mr. C. WOOD rose amid loud cries for Dr. Bowring, who,
however, did not reply to the question, and Mr. Wood 'gave
way to . .
Mr. MILES, who said he was the last man to call on the Go-
vernment to bring forward any papers but such as they pleased,but
they must consider what the public would think of the matter.
If no Government interest was compromised, he trusted that
the motion would be agreed to.
Mr. C. WOOD must protest against the doctrine laid down
by the Right Hon. , Gentleman, the Vice-President of the
Board of Trade, in the answer he had given to the question.
First, lie refused to give the information, beCause it was Of a
confidential nature; but the second part of his answer was, that
it was perfectly immaterial, and he then stated the substance of
it, thus showing that the first part of his answer was Without
foundation.--(Divide, divide. )
.Mr. SHAW begged the House to consider the delay which
the question under the consideration of the House :had
already experienced, and called upon Honourable 'Mem-
bers not to delay it longer by motions of this sort, more espe-
cially when he was sure that the Government had not withheld
anything which was at all relevant or of the least importance.
Major VIVIAN rose to explain, but the cries of " Divide"
were so loud as to render his observations but imperfectly
heard. He said that he had received the information on which
he acted from some person not connected with the Govern.
ment. He believed it had come into his possession from the
negligence of a party connected with that department ; but he
(Major Vivian) not being connected with any Of them, thought
he was not committing any breach of confidence.—(The groans
and cries of " Divide " had here risen to such a pitch as to com-
pel the Hon. Member to resume:his leaf.)
Several other Hou. Members attempted to speak, but they
were not allowed to proceed.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the House
divided—.

For the motion
Against it
Majority
The House went into Committee pro forma, the Chairman
reported progress, and the House resumed.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL wished to know if the tariff was
brought forward on Friday, when the Income-tax Bill would be
read a third time.
Sir R. PEEL said, he proposed to take the third reading of
the Income-tax • after Whitsuntide. He had proposed to take
the tariff on the earliest day, and therefore he named Friday.
He had also named Friday for the Income-tax, and he should,
therefore, postpone it till after Whitsuntide. Supposing the
essential points of the tariff to be agreed to, he thought' that the
House would have no objection to name a day fur the third
reading of the Income-tax Bill.

Lora J. RUSSELL said he had no objection to the course
the Right Hon. Gentleman proposed—viz., that they should
make some progress in the tariff, and then proceed with the
Income-tax. They certainly had not made much progress in
the Committee that night. Ile(Lord J. Russell) was glad to
find that the Right Hon. Gentleman had made progress that
night, tts his 3tatements had been made upon abroad principle,
for
.the 'principle would apply equally to sugar and corn, and
this was really agreat progress.--(A laugh.) _
IC—PEEL said if the Noble Lord wished it he woula
name Monday week or Friday week ; he had no objection which.
Loki JOHN RUSSELL thought it would be satisfactory to
the country to know that a day was appointed.
Sir R. PEEL then would say Friday week.—(Cries of
" Monday.' )