The Sun.
London, England, 1820-06-03 00:00:00

SUPPLY.-,-ARMY ESTI NIATES.

On the motion of the CnANCELL.OR of the Ex-
cfreQuaa, the liouse resolved itself into a Cunt-
trotter of Supply.
Lord Paeraeas-Tota rose to propose the Esti-
mates for Mire present year. In bringing forward
these Icitirnates, it Was not -his intention to go
minutely into every item. _ He sboUld. content
himself with adverting to the principal 'heads, and
reserve explanations till called on by Gentlemen.
In the Laud Forces there would this year be an
increase in number in rank and file of 10,358 men,
and, including Officers, of 11,745 ; and the in-
creased charge.for _these additional forces would
be about 224,0001. The whole increase in the
Regimental Departments would be 363'0001.. and
on the whole the increase would be 416,0001.—
One head of increase would arise out of keeping
up the 48th regiment in New South Wales to
1000. It was in_ended to have reduced it to 650,
but the Government of the Colony considered the
Intl force not more than sufficient ; the increased
expence arising our of this arrangement would he
11,0001. The Noble Lord proceeded to enume-
rate other items of increase and diminution of ex-
penditure, but by no means in his usual distinct
• mintier. In the Cloathing .Department for Ire-
land there would in consequence of some new
tegolation be a saving of 219,0001. and other
items of diminished expenditure wonted appear. on
examination of the Estimates. In the Miscella—
neous Department thete was an increased expen-
diture, arising. out of tecent circumstances,
,of
61,0001. On the English Army E„tablishment
the increase was 17,5001.; on the Irish 10,5001.
In the Recruiting Department there would also be
an increase to the amount of 5,3191. the Estimate
of last year having. been short 5,00 W. Souse re-
ductions, trifling indeed, would be -found in the
Barrack and other Departments. He saw a smile
on the countenances of Gentlemen opposite ; but
he mentioned the circumstance as proving the
desire there was on the part of Government to
economize whenever it was practicable.—(Heat!)
—Gentlemen cried Hear ! and smiled at these
tm►inor retrenchments, when carried into effect ;
yet if not adopted, they were the subject of their
constant reprobation. Ile would again repeat
that these retrenchments in minute items did
clearly prove that there existed in the minds of
Iris Majesty's Government a real and constant. de-
sire to economize. The next item he would ad-
vett to was the Staff : on the whole Staff there
would be a saving of 13,1711, but on the Home
Staff there was an increase of three General Offi-
cers, two for England, and one for Scotland, at
an expellee of 3526). In the Medical Staff there
was a reduction of 11891. In the Contingencies
an augmentation of 23251. In the -Irish
Staff a saving of 4283 ; last year there were
in Ireland seven General Officers. In the present
Estimates there were wily three, but it would be
found necessary to add a fourth, though that
fourth was not in the present Estimates. At this
part of his statement the Noble Lord, who had
previously shetvu syml►toms of indisposition, was
seized with a bleeding at. the nose, and obliged to
sit down fora few minutes, when he again tat-
tempted to proceed. On the Foreign Sr, r,
(bereft), e, there was a dimilintion of 14.0001. mak-
ing, with the diminution of 30,0001.—Ilere the
Noble Lord was again obliged to sit down troni
he seeet e bleeding at the nose.

ORDNANCE ESTIMATES:
•
'Mr. WARD 108 r, in consequence of the indis-
position of thr Noble Lord, to move I be Ordnance
Estim.ites. 11r. hypo by stating, that although
many. persons were of opinion that our military
establishment was too large, he was persuaded
that it %tas not greater than the cirennyitances of
the country demanded. The increase of pendi-
lute in the department with which he was con-
nected, dummied on the whole to 133,0001,, and

Et' RICE SLvLNYrNcra

for tile sake of greater clearness he is edit divide
the different heads of expenditure into three
classes. The first class was eomp6,ed ut such
articles ót increased eXpteeti, ere ~s were a iie ne-
cessary consequence of re'gularions, eehlen end
either been approved by this Haase or in strive
instances sanctioned by the laws of the country.,
The Second consisted at those attieleSMiich were
rather matters of arraegeieeet than cif whit, ienal
expellee ; the third was coetposed of those items
which certainly added to the espeoces_of ekes Mie
!nary establishment, but Which were j retitled by
the eirctitswances of the times, 'lh:enter !lead he
wotdd mention was one of 10,0001 , conipesed
partly of the aneetint of the iecreased expeoce of
she oiduance. militate,: corps esit! easily et other
items which it was nit is the power .01 the Heese to
coetroul, There was micelles ititt of 30001 , be-
ing the amount of gretuitieS 'greeted for mcriased
services and good coodoct to persons in the Civil
Department. • The pi iocipal source of the in-
creased expenditereewa&linsrasisieg trout tbs.:sad-
ditions to the halt-pay establishment awl to super-
etmeetions„ These items amounted to 55,0001•,
which was nearly half of the excess which he had
set out with stating to the Horse. 'The second class,
which consisted rather of matters of arrangement
'ban of additional , expence, was confined to the
military contingeticies of the ordnance establish.
ment. Iu the Miscellaneous charges was au item,
of from '25 to 26,0001. for allowances of bread
money, meat, beer, coals, &c , the excess under
tlds head album-sting to 3,5001. Among these
items was one to .which he flattered himself the
House would most cheerfully accede, he alluded
to teium of 6,0001.• charged to the ho:iy of the
account for the exPences of the trigonometrical
survey, which was commenced under the etispices
of the late Gen. Mudge. Ueder the head of tor-
provided,services in the_ Ordnance Department
the amount stated was 40.0001. though the re-al
amount was not more than 25,0001. and this arose
from there beieg balances in hand equal to the
difference of those sums. The third head con-
sisted of those items which constituted an obsolete
addition to The expenses of.the Ordnance Depart-
ment.
Against these additions it would -be ne-
cessary to set the savings which had been made
in this year; not less than 19 es eblisionenie in
this departsneut, the expense of which amounted
to 5001. per annum, had been put down. Light
establishments in the West Indies, enumerated its
the Estimates, had been completely 'put down.
These sums added 10 the former Made a saving in
the Ordhisries of 5,0001. aad in the Exile:ordi-
naries of 11,0001. making a saving in the cyliole
of 16,0001. After deducting t Isis. suns the whole
amount of the increase of expeediture would be
133,0001. The Honourable Mrtinher stated, that
he was ready to answer -soy -qtiestions, and to
give tiny explaeation which might he required
upon the subject, and concluded by movieg that
a stint of 292 6941. Si SA. be granted to his Ma-
jesty for the Land Service of the Ordnance De.
pertinent.
Mr. Hume locked to the total of the excess of
the year, and not to the i,etes, tied he considered
that the state of the country required the strictest
economy. In 1819 he found no des tease. Tile
-total amount of (militaries of 'het year was
520,0001. while those of this year were 540,0001.
The extraordivaries for 1819 were 220,0001.;
'those of 1820 were 280,0001. The kl bile ,x.
pence for England and Iseion 1, in 1814, was
e 49,2401.; while those of the present year were
940,6801. The net expewlitere of last year, and
that of the present year, made a difference of
130,0001. But the difference would have been
mod) greater if credit bad not been taken for
170,0001. for old stores over the same item of
last year's account. He did think they were
bound to attempt a comparison between Ihe
amount of the total of the Ordnance in 1792,
which was 419,4981. for the whole Ordnance in
the year before the war. Let the House compare
that with the expence in the sixth year of peace.
If he took the averages of the six years hcfote
1793, and the six years since 1814, there would
be found an increase of 800,0001. ; both periods
being times of peace. He admitted that no real
reduction could be made, but by the individuals
in the various offices of this department of the
State. The Commissioners of Military- Inquiry
had recommended the reduction of the salary
of the Secretary of the Master General of the
o:doance from 20001. to 8501. a year. He
did not know whether that reduction had ever
taken place. He bad no iced the money eel-
, lected on certain revenues at Gibraltar had
been illegally appropriated to the Civil List,
while 7,0001. had been ippropriated to repairs at
Gibraltar, for which purpose that money should
have been applied, according to the intention of
the Order in Council, undsr %%Lich it was levied.
He objected aho to the expenses of the Tune('
Islands ; which were by Treaty bound to main-
tain 3000 troops. Any additional number of
troops were to be paid by this country ; he there-
fore did not • know why the sum of 30001. was
asked for these Islands, It was %veil known that
we had guepoedsr eSSough in the centitty to last
20 years of pellet! ; and yet there was a sum of
10,0001. for
the
manufactere of eeimpowder ; trod,
he undeistood, that Goveremeut every year WaS
making gimpowder at six or .se‘eit pounds a bat-
rel, and selling it'at three pounds. It that was the
case, he thought it was not worth while to keep en
the manufactory at such an expeece. kle also
objected to young clerks of three, five, seer!) and
nine years vending, having been diseherged tei
pensions of 451, a year for life, being halt their
full salaries. According to his opinion, these
things vrere contrary to law : aud they were spe-
eimees of the economy to be followed up by Mi-
nisters. He was thankful to the Master-General
of the Ordnance for the reductions he had already