Star.
London, England, 1830-03-19 00:00:00

entered upon in the idea of an inquiry into the distressed state of the
labouring classes. Now, how could they proceed in order to ascer-
tain that the distress was general, but by going into every county ?
And the first object of inquiry would be--what number of workmen
were employed, and what wages they received. Let hien suppose
these inquiries to be ipetituted with respect to agricultural la-
bourers. But if they found they were not adequately paid—that
they could scarcely subsist upon what they received for their la-
bour, would they not be bound, in justice to the subject, to pur-
sue the inquiry further, and to inquire what bad induced the farm-
ers; and land-owners to reduce their wages to so low a point ?
They would probably answer that the re aced prices of agricul.
turd produce had compelled them to do so. Here then was another
fertile field of inquiry. What had produced the low prices of agri-
cultural produce ? The farmers might indeed take anodic" ground
distinct from that of the landlords. They might probably say
teat their rents had not been reduced to a level with the prices
of produce. and then at last they must go to the landlords to ask
them why they had not reduced their rents. Thus it was plain
that the first inquiry must naturally and necessarily lead them to
in it vepitig: tion of the whole internal state of the country. The
same process also mutt be followed with respect to manufacturing
labour. They would first have to inquire the rate of wages. and
when, they found that wages were insufficient for the maintenance of '
the workmen, they must proceed a step higher in the scale. He
was not saying that wages were in fact insufficient ; he was only
assuming that such things might be told them. They must then
resort to the manufacturer to ask why he gave wages to his work.
rien so utterly incompetent to their support. The answer would
probably be, that profits were so small that if he gave higher wages that
would be no profit ; that if he gave higher wages it would be imports!.
ble for him to compete with foreigners either in the home market or
abroad. With respect to the home market they would be referred
to the redundant supply from machinery, and to the competition of
foreigners, against which they were no longer adequately protected.
He did not say this was so ; but this was probably what they would
be told. And thus they would be led to inquire into what had
foolishly and improperly been called a system of free trade. They
would also no doubt be told that the manufacturer could not send
goods to the foreign markets but at so low a price that if he gave
higher wages he must cease to send them at all. So that theirbordships
must perceive, that instead of entering upon an inquiry into the
condition of the working classes, they would in effect institute an
enquiry into every particular connected with the manufacturing, the
agricultural, and the trading interests' of the country. But this was not
all. Not only were they to inquire into the state of the productive
classes, but into the effeetsof taxation upon the productive industry of
the country. This, it was plain, opened the 'whole subject of taxatim,
for there was no tax which did not more or less affect the productive
industry of the country. So that the inquiry was to be into all the
interests of agriculture, manufactures, and commerce, and to these
was to be added a further inquiry into the whole of the financial
affairs of the country. His noble relative had said that he
wished for a further reduction of taxation. This was very easily
said, but it was proper to recollect that for taxes taken offisome sub-
stitute must be provided. He knew it might be contended that a
diminution of taxes led to an increase of revenue, by adding to the
consumption. This, however, was uncertain. All that was certain
was, that when taxes were taken off there must be for the first yearoe
two a decided loss. Into this subject, however, it was not his purpose
to enter. All he intended was to chew, that under the present motion
they were culled upon to engage in an inquiry into all that related
to the agriculture, all that related to the manufactures, all that am
laced to the commerce, and all that related to the finances of the
country. (Hear.) He could not consent to a motion so extensive
as this. lie would not hold out to the country such expectations as
the appointment of this committee would be calculated to inspire.—
lie would not above all, lead the working classes to expect some
great improvement of their condition from the labours of such a
committee. Ile would be no party to such a delusion, or to the
disappoinunent which must inevitably follow. But this was not
all. The noble duke said he would be disposed to exclude from
their inquiries the tax upon foreign corn, or as it had been some.
what invidiously c elled, the tax upon bread. No, his noble friend
did not with any inquiry into this. But could his noble friend
answer for others ? Could he have any doubt, in fact, that the
corn laws must be discussed in such a committee as he now pro-
posed ? He was as averse as his noble Mend to the triennial discussion
of this subject. The law with respect to the importation of foreign corn
was now settled. He wished it to remain so. Nothing could be so mis-
chievous both to landlord and tenant as uncertainty upon this
subject. But he war certain that if such an inquiry as was pro-
posed should once begin, an inquiry involving the interests of all
classes--of landlords, tenants, labourers, manufacturers, work.
men—they should deeply disappoint the working classes of this
country if they did not also inquire into the foreign corn tax.
If he considered the immediate relief only of the labouring classes,
he should say that the first thing they ought to do was to remove
the tax upon foreign corn; but if he looked to their permanent in.
terests. he should say, let full and ample protection be still ex-
tended to agriculture. He would say, that to open the trade to fo.
reign corn, without any protection to British agriculture, would be
to ruin the most valuable market of our manufacturers, the home
market. li is noble relation might be disposed to shut out one ques.
thou from this otherwise unlimited inquiry. He said it was impossible.
But there was another question of equal importance; he meant the
question of the currency, which other noble lords might be disposed
to shut out. This he said with equal confidence, would be impos-
sible also. If they were to establish such a committee of inquiry,
they could not shut it out.—(Hear, hear, from Lord Stanhope ).
His noble friend, who introduced a motion for this extensive and
unlimited kind of inquiry said " hear hear." What was this but
a proof, if proof were required, that the question of currency could
not be shut out. It would evidently be impossible to shut it out.
A noble marquis, a high authority upon this and every other subject
in their lordships' house, if he were a member of the committee,
would certainly introduce it; for upon the discussion some weeks ago
of a motion very similar to the present, he had expressly said that the
introduction of a mixed standard of gold and silver as a remedy for
the distresses of the country was a fit subject of inquiry, and had also
said that this was the ancient standard of the country. As he had
been led to allude to this subject, he woultl take that opportunity of
adverting to something which had. fallen from the noble marquis
upon that occasion. He had asserted that up to the year 1797
silver was the only legal standard I at least he so understood him.
knowing as he did the exclusive and accurate information of the
noble marquis, and speaking therefore with great diffidence, be could
not help thinking that he had in this instance fallen into an error.
He thought that in the year 1717, on the recommendation of Sir
Isaac Newton, then master of the mint, and in pursuance of an
unanimous address of both Houses of Parliament, a nation
was issued, establishing gold as the current coin ortollif realm.
Both silver and gold were then,as now, the current coin of the king-
dom, but the noble marquis appeared to think that in practice at
least silver was most employed. The fact, however appeared to be,
that gold from that time was considered the principal coin. From
1717 to 1797, the whole amount of silver coin which was issued
from the Itlint was no more than 5651. From the moment they
placed a limit beyond which silver was not a legal tender, it ceased
to be the current coin of the realm, in the strict sense of the words.
It was said that it might still be received by weight; but to what did
this amount? The intrinsic value of the silver in circulation was
30 per cent. below its nominal value, so that if a man wanted to
pay, a bill of 701. in silver, it would ke of the silver coin then cur-
rent to the amount of 1001. to pay it. Then what was the tact with
respect to the silver token. Nobody could be compelled to receive
this coin in payment to a greater amount than 21. Suppose then,
it might be said, a person had a payment to make to the amount of
701. and had silver tokens in his possession to that amount, what
would be his remedy ? His remedy was this, to pay to the Bank
his 701. in silver, and the next day he might receive for it 70 golden
sovereigns. Then what was the state of the currency now ? They
had gold as the legal currency of the country, but they had also
silver tokens, and when he said that the latter were in circulation to
'the amount of seven millions, it could not be denied that in point of
'practice silver now formed a considerable proportion of the cur.
rency. He adverted to these considerations to show their lordships
• that if 'they entered into the committee, the people would expect
them to revise the whole system of the currency. The petitions
'Complaining of distress were frequently adverted to. Were their
lordships nut aware that more than half the petitions on their table
which complained of distress distinctly ascribed the distress to the
state of the currency ? If, therefore, they excluded this subject from
their inquiry, they could not claim the merit of entering into an in.
quiry from respect to the petitions of the people. Then he said
once more that they could not enter into this conunittee, unless they
were prepared to open an investigation of all the affairs of agricul-
ture, all the affairs of the manufactures, all the taxes, all the trade
of the country, the corn laws, the currency, and that until the cam-
wince had finished its labours, complicated and protracted, the
country in respect to all these important subjects would be in a state
of suspense. He objected to such a committee, which in the end
could be productive of no advantage, and during, the progress of
its enquiries must keep every interest and class of the community
in a mate of doubtful and anxious suspense.

The Earl of MANSFIELD would agree to the motion of hie
noble friend. He should have been convinced of the necessity et
inquiring into the state of the country, even had he not heard die
admirable speech of his noble friend. But it would requite on the
usher hand vary strong arguments indeed to convince him that fir
was inexpedient for parliament to institute.= inquiry, when it was
not denied that great distress existed, land when they received maw
and urgent petitions Aunt the people, praying them to "hiveselsou
it tense., with a view. be administer relief. The objectless tin
tMie ..notion must .relate either to the object of this inquiry, ge suk
the .uioncr in. irli it Wgs proposed to conduct it. Tits *Kt
:titateoTold, t 0 ant into the situadon of the laws** anus
.pottpliAnet taqhieffeet taxation upon the row.
thee iniimatay• .I,z The ion= in which kweipentand

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to institute these inquiries appeared to him to be equally unobjec-
tionable. A Select Committee was in his opinion the bast means
by which Parliament could investigate any subject. It had been
objected that the multiplicity of topics to which the enquiry would,
lead precluded the hope of ha ever arriving at a terminatloa.
He hoped, however, that this difficulty would not be on-
ansquerable. lie ad not the good thrtune to be present
at the commencement of the Session, but the tense in which
his Majesty had been advised to speak of the distress of the country
had appeared to him, as to many others, to be rather lighter than
the circumstances warranted. Not but that he believed theirs lighter
touches might have cost more labour pothaps than all the rest of the
Speech, to those who composed it. There was s certain class of po-
liticians who believe that all was well provided they were seedbed,
like the French gourmand, quasi U a bien elites croi Ist le +wow&
heureux—( laugh.)—This class of politicians it was that recom-
mended patience to the people under their passost satiforings,assue-i
ing them that nothing was the matter. It wag an undoubted fact that
the patience of the people was most exemplary. To what this was
owing he knew not. Perhaps it was confidence in the stability of the
I present ministry, of whom there was a sort of feeling that they were
as secure as the national debt, limn which there was no prospect
that the country would be relieved.—(a laugh.) lie gave no opi.
nion of his own upon the subject. He, however, attributed the pa.
fleece of the people to other causes—to that firmness of character
which they exhibited in the field, as the noble duke, himself a mo.
dent and competent witness, had told them.—(hear, hear.) He also
attributed it to another cause—the increase of common sense,
which prevented them from being seduced by factious demagogues,
and taught them to rely in every extremity upon parliament,
in which the people were always sure to find some advo-
cates. They now knew that sedition was the surest means of con-
tinuing the evils from which they desired to be released. These
causes of the patience of the people were not perhaps so flattering to
the minister as the other one assigned ; but the augmented good sense
and loyalty of the people were fully as consoling to the nation. This
behaviour of the people deserved that the motion of inquiry into
their distresses, made by the noble duke, should be acceded to.—
Their lordships ought not to think themselves on an eminence
placed above the sympathies of the people. In other countries they
saw the splendid palace, fraught with every luxury, and beside it
the miserable thatched cottage of the peasant' like Lazarus at the
gate of Dives—an unnatural centrist. In those countries
there was no feeling of sympathy, no reciprocity of interest with
the people. But in England there were greater masses of wealth
than elsewhere, yet the wealth was more diffused than elsewhere.
Every stranger must remark in this country, that although there
might be distress, the stamp of misery did not appear upon any
one class. The fact was, that all interests were united in this
country ; for it was impossible that productive industry could
long be affected in one department without communicating to the
others. One advantage would be derived from the committee--
they would ascertain whether the misery which afflicted different
classes sprung from one cause, or reflected by one upon the others.
Ile hoped the suffering was not so deep-rooted as was supposed,
and, at alt events, that the house would save the labouring classes
from the degradation into which they were sinking. The great ob-
ject was to see to what degree, in the scale of comfort and happiness,
the labouring classes had sunk. This would be one object of en-
quiry. The next would be the manufacturing interest; nor could
they go on long without investigating into the financial system of the
I country. The operation of the corn laws and poor rates, and, last of
all and greatest of all, the currency, must also necessarily come
within the scope of the enquiry. These multifarious topics would
seem to promise an Interminable investigation ; but arrangements
could be made to make reports from time to time to the house.
He should not state what his opinions were upon these questions,
because that would afford his opponents an opportunity of pressing
upon the disunion of sentiment amongst the supporters of the motion.
If noble lords were to go into such an inquiry with their minds
pledged to pre-conceived opinions, as if they were principles from
which it would be dishonour to depart, the inquiry would be worse
than nothing. The object of all parties entering upon such an in-
vestigation should be to endeavour to discover an amendment for the
evils under which the country was labouring. This cause would
be much better than a mere blank denial of the existence of distress.

The Earl of ELDON addressed the house, but was occasionally
inaudible below the bar. He had voted for enquiry throughout the
semdon, but it had been denied. The house he hoped would now
make one struggle more. He knew not the meaning of the smile
upon the noble duke's countenance—ft was perhaps e.r officio at the
mention of this particular subject—(A laugh}- subject which filled
all hearts with grief. He believed in his conscience that the bless-
ings which this
.country enjoyed might be secured yet for many
a generations by proper conduct on the part of the government.
On a late occasion the objection to the motion was, that it was
for an open committee ; now the objection was that it was
for a select committee. He did not suppose that Parliament would
give all the relief that was expected of it; but they should satisfy
the people of their desire to relieve them. A few fine spring sunshiny
mornings bad enabled the noble duke to find that the prespeels of
the country had so much improved that he could afford to sellegnlsh
3,500,0001. or 5,000,0001. as it was expressed, of taxes. Hs hoped
this the noble duke would allow him to express his confidence
that as the weather improved, he would find still further resources
fee the relief of the country. (A laugh.) He applauded the good
disposition of the people under the pressure by which they were
borne down. None but Englishmen could bear such pressure with
se much patience, and that was because they knew their coma.
Paden would sooner or later make them happy. He did not wish
to alter the currency, but he should like to see a greater number of
=notes in circulation. It was a curious fact that in Northum.
the poor rates were only one and sixpence in the pound,
while la the southern counties they were from seventeen to twenty-
two shillings. He attributed this to the circulation of Scotch notes,
for he did not believe that a Scotch note could be made to stop
in Scotland more than any other thing. (A laugh.) Nor did he
believe that it could be got to go back more than any thing else that
only once got out of that country. The noble earl enlarged upon
the advantage of a attict union of feeling and interest between the
parliament and the people. The nation had been represented as a
pillar, the base of which was the mass of the population, the higher
orders adorning the capital, and the monarch forming the apex. He
hoped nothing would be done to alienate from the monarch the love
of the people.
The Earl of ROSEBERY declared his entire acquiescence in the
motion made by the Noble Duke. With reference to the motion
made the other night for an inquiry at the Bar of the House, he
certainly had opposed it on the ground of inexpediency, believing
that the topics would become too numerous. his sentiments had
been misunderstood upon the subject of the silver currency. They
had been told that Newton fixed the standard in gold ; but k should
not be forgotten that be measured his gold standard by the value of
silver. As to Northumberland, there was a prohibition against the

Scotch notes circulating there. The secret if their peosierity was,
that they did not pay their wages in poor rates. Emigration, he
thought, ought to be one of the topics of inquiry by the Commit.,
tee, and particularly the effect of the influx of Irish paupers into
this country. 1
The Marquis of CAMDEN opposed the motion. He was of
opinion that the distress was not so general as it was attempted to
stew. The expressions in the Speech which had been delivered
from the Throne at the opening of the Session on this subject were:
not in his opinion unjust. In the year 1822 he assured their Lord.:
ships that he and many other Noble Lords were obliged to remit to
their tenants a year's rent. Nothing of the kind was the case now
as regarded his tenants, or others, as far as be could learn ; and be
could not therefore believe the country was in the same state of de.'
premien. lie knew it was considered to be very good sport to distress
the Ministry. (A laugh.) It was to the wish to copy that sport
that be attributed the determined asseverations of Noble Leeds
on the subject of distress, and the successive motions they made to
embody their opinions. As to the county meetings, they did not
express the opinion of the people. They were called to back the
opinions of members in parliament, not to collect the true sense of
the people themselves. As he had already said, the object was to
distress the administration ; and for that purpose he observed them
were in that house a motley variety of parties. They hid now ultra
benches and discontented benches, as well as CMGs beeches.—(a
laugh.) lie hoped that noble lords would not sanction a measure,
from which they could anticipate no practical good.
The Earl of WINCHILSEA gave, his cordial support to the
motion of his Noble Friend, who was destined to reap as &min-
gulithed civic honours as the military laurels which emended his
brow. The country was in the greatest distress, apicaltard as well
as manufacturing. Could any one possessing one spark of feeling,
humanity, or justice, refuse to inquire into the sonnies of that
distress ? Could the House refuse upon the insufficient pound put
forth by a Member of the Goveniment' that they mum march
into all the interests of the country, if they entered upon any
investigation. Another Noble Lied spoke against to pear
laws. If it were not for these, he W./eyed the labourites
people would be in a worse condition than they were. If adminis-
tered in their true spirit, they were theism code of laws ever named
by the wisdom of man. No one would be better pleased than he so
find the distress partial and temporary, but he assured the noble ad
who had just spoken, that he would find the distress in the county
of Kent greater than was ever known in the memory of men. H.
was informed that the fiance, of Kent were paying no rent at aIL
One man, who had paid none for seven "youv, came to his land-
lord the other day, and said, " There is some meoey, but if you
take it, I shall have no seed to pat into your ground.' The
freeholders, io his part of theveentry, were reduced tonneikaW of
what they were six yeses ago, end half tho property of the remainder
was now Mr sale. He wished be could concur with the melds earl,
that the country felt confidence in the ministry. He mild not shut,
his eyes and ears to what he had witnessed at the late county meeting.
He bed as beesinateuinental in calling that meeting be wider to'
back his %Anion 40 the aaneyaace of- the ministry. • He did sot
blame them foe what was the result of many ?an nalemanarehent,
not did he wish to maks their unenviable snowiest worse Chas 1e

, was. He did not think the petitions of the people were treated with
I that respect or attention in Parliament which they deserved. He
supported the noble duke (Richmond), and had the most heartfelt
satisfaction, as he believed all had, in seeing him restored to heath,
Iso art to be gbh to take part in the btainese of the house.
The Duke of BUCKINOHAHM declared his concurrence with
the noble earl who had just sat down in the sentiments of gratifies.
don he expressed at the recovery of the noble duke, on public as
will as private grounds. He theaeht the proposed ingot wax too
comprehensive. Had it been more limited in its object, should
have been disposed to accede to it. He thought they ought to inquire
pro ashen this investigation was now open government. If
diere was distress now, it was not for the
lesta time. For 160 years
they had been told of the approaching ruin of the country, and Sir
John Sinclair, he believed it was, stated that they had been ruined
two and twenty times. No one could doubt the motives of the noble
duke, whose public and piens* character ware above isapeschasent ;
but he shoultrbear. in mind the use that might be made of his name
and authority for had purposes. It was impossible to say what was
the cause of the distress of the country, which might flow from a
variety of causes over which they had no power of controuL For
instance, the butter they used to eat for their breakfast came for.
Innerly ont Buckinghamshire and Essex ; by the rapid conveyance
of steam it now came from France and Holland ; so that in this mi-
nute particular the interests of the country were suffering injury.—
Theorecond object proposed by the motion was to inquire into the
effect of taxes on productive labour. This would embrace a large
field of inquiry. (Hear.) They must look at the proportion that
I taxes bore to income, their effects on exports and imports. Dis.
tress was noc confined to this country. It extended to other MUD.
tries differently circumstanced. If the distress arose from taxation,
why did it exist in Switzerland, where there was hardly any taxation
—in America, where there were almost no taxes—in France, where
the taxes were much lighter than here ? If the caws was
_public
debt, let them go to America, where there was no debt; to France,
where the debt was not great, and with a sinking fund to redeem it;
to Switzerland, where there was no debt ; and then they would find
distress. Was the cause tube found in the principles of free trade? He
did not see them very extensively acted upon—but go to Denmark,
to France, to Ocrinany, to America, to any part of the world, in
which trade was restricted, and there also they would find the
people labouring under distress. It was attributed to the re.
striction of the currency by the withdrawal of the small paper. His
opinion was that it arose more from want of confidence than from any
deficiency of currency, and that want of confidence wax occasioned by
the banking system as hitherto conducted. In the bubble year,
1825, not less than 165 banks broke, and out of these 160 paid
20s. in the pound; they paid in a metallic currency the debts
contracted in a currency of paper, but that was not enough to
keep up confidence. The distress arose from other causes also • from
the breaking up of the commercial barriers established during the
war ; from the opening of new markets; front bad seasons ; and
partly, he would admit, from the return to cash payments. But
whatever might be the causes of it, he never could believe that it
was irremediable. There was even now a visible improvement.
The manufacturers were getting employment. This motion was
brought forward at such an extraordinary time, and supported by
Such an extraordinary combination of parties--the Whigs with the
True Blue Tories—that Ire must conclude the object was to turn out
his noble and illustrious friend (the Duke of Wellington.) If his
noble friend listened to their suggestions, he must do what would be
injurious to the country and disgraceful to his government.
The Marquis of SALISBURY said, he did not consider the
motion of his noble friend as calling for such general inquiry ; and
therefore he would support it. He took some pains to inquire into
the state of the labouring poor in Hertfordshire, and found that
there were six and a quarter per cent. of all the male population out
of employment. It might be a fair average for the whole male po-
pulation of England to say that the proportion out of employment
was three and a half per cent. or 170,000 able-bodied labourers,
between the ages of fifteen and seventy. If this were the case, no
strayer ground for inquiry could be brought before parliament. He
would therefore support the motion.
The Earl of WICKLOW said he should oppose the motion, as
the object of it was to inquire into a new and temporary evil. He
supported a Committee of Inquiry into the state of Ireland, because
there the evil was of a permanent nature. One cause of the dis.
tress was the peculiar circumstances of the late harvest. A reduc-
tion of rents must take place. The rents of late years could no
longer be kept up.
The Earl of RADNOR supported the motion, and referred to
communications which he had from Manchester and other places, to
prove the severity of the existing distress. The practice of paying
wages partly out of the poor's rates, was most injurious, but he
must deny that it was introduced originally for the purpose of de.
frauding the manufacturing classes. The distress was general, and
the consequences of it was a general cry for reform. He was a ra-
dical reformer himself ; but all those Noble Lords who did not wish
for reform should vote for this motion, if it were only to prove to
the people that Parliament, se now ostituted, was ready and will.
ingrthoe inquire into their grievances.
Earl of ROSSLI N opposed the motion as too general. It
embraced an inquiry into the state of the manufacturing classes,
the agricultural classes, the effect of taxation on productive in-
dustry, the effect of each tax upon each branch of industry, the
poor laws, and various other topics of such extent, that it was to-
tally impossible any committee could embrace them. Let the dis.
tress be as general as it might be, could any benefit arise from such
enquiry ? He :supposed the remedies proposed would be as vs-1
nous as the subjects. The noble earl (Stanhope) would no doubt
=an unlimited issue of paper. Another noble lord (Lord
vine) would propose a silver standard, which could not be
done without a depreciation of ten per cent. and then they would
soon be met again with the cry of " filthy rags." Another noble
lord would propose a restrictive commercial system, and a return to
the formed corn laws.
_______ •

The Earl of ROSEBERV rose to explain.
The Earl of IiOSLYN said he did not allude to him, but to
the Noble Marquis of Lansdowne. The Noble Marquis recom-
mended a silver currency of 66 shillings to the pound of silver. This
might afford relief, but it would be one of as fraudulent a nature as
any previous alteration of the currency. It would be better at once
that the country should declare itself like other bankrupts, unable to
pay, and cheat its creditor. of a curtain sum. Besides all this, the
Committee was to inquire into a commutation of tithes ; and a noble
Lord suggested also, that from its labours Gentlemen might de-
rive great advantage in the management of their estates. His
belief was, that the distress arose front the uncertain and fluctuating
state in which the country was placed for some time back with res-
pect to currency, trade, the corn laws, the alterations proposed or
suggested in almost every thing affecting the public interests. By
these means a spirit of speculation, and an apprehension of change
was introduced, which bad done great mischief. Much evil was
occasioned by the breach of confidence between the bankers and the
farmers. The great advantage of Scotland was, that this confidence
had never been interrupted, because the system of banking there was
founded on a solid basis. He might also remark, that the corn laws
were not long enough in operation to produce confidence on the pan
of the agriculturist, and.' sense of security was necessary to carry on
his operations snecessfully. If the motion were,agreed to, it would
only excite hope, and set the minds of all afloat on speculation. Ile
must look upon the motion as intended to convey disapprobation of
the government. If there were any charges against ministers, it
would be better to state them openly. There were many circum-
stances which indicated that the distress could not be so great as it
was represented. The consumption of tea and coffee increased, and
there was but a very slight diminution in that of sugar. There was
an increase also in the consumption of British spirits. The export
of cotton goods had encreased. This might be no great proof of
prosperity, but the 'oncost could not have been produced without
giving menses of employment. When people talked of the hum-
tion of Irish labourers, be must observe that he could allow no dif-
ference between English and blade labourer, and he should never
listen to any proposition for making an invidious distinction. Did
not the very persons who complained of this irruption take advan.
tage alit ; did not the farmer benefit by it? (•• No," from a Noble
Lord.) Then why hire them ? Because their labour was cheaper,
and these were many parts of the country in which the harvest could
not be got in without them. Others complained of the great import
of Irish produce ; he rejoiced at it, for it was a proof of the improve.
meat of that country.
The Earl of CARNARVON was induced to attribute sense part
of the distress se the withdrawal of the small notes. lie sold their
Lordships in Htle, when the question of currency was agitated.
that if they contracted the issue in the way then contemplated, that
great and serious evils would follow. He then said if their Lord-
ships passed that measure, that it would cause millions of paupers.
especially ameog the agricultural classes. He might be, however.
mistaken in the masa of she present unparalleled disavow, by
attributing a pardon of it to lbw alteration in the currency. Me
thought that cite greatest boon which could be conferred by Parlia-
ment, would be to umballats the currency on the basis of that which
existed in the cluttered basks of Scotland. Ile thought that the
Inquiry sought by the prams motion ought to be granted. He
dieldd, therefore, give eloomootiaa his support, not with a view, he
could assure the noble duke at the bead of his Majesty's government,
embarrassing his adoideuadeN but from a rim belief that brae-'
ficklaaulta would low bear its Migglon.
Lord GOWER omidewed the aunty would be beneaued by the
rodoadoo of taxation whiiik bad bees recendy armoaatal..sevartlie.
Iwo, be thought it Ed& be carried tardier without esdoagering the
honour and safety of the enustry. He was permuded drat no Mi-
shits: was better ededetediesdhrce sty inseam then the table
duke at the bead Olds 3 bed he peuesaid the
costumes oldie toottry.faV leneElirZed. 4, be had the Irma
belief duit else isi.poihlea 10 Motion of tits, noble duke was to
lighter*, Modem ebb* panted the esenuettnity. as much all
i he peed* sail. lievitexpround these ereadens. he begged in
say that be aboul4 ewes dee mann %tete thlibeese.
Did DARNLEY le* in IMidarede tee dens' tx the vote he,
should give, he tifiould suet ben a kw etteenente on their Lord-'

ships' time. Re never roe with more *All feelings than on the
present occasion. The noble duke who had proposed the formation
of a committee, bad drawn such pictures of misery, and other noble
lads who had followed in the debate had likewise added to those
wretched scenes the distressing objects which they bad witnessed,
that if he felt persuaded any relief could possitly arise from
the investigation, Hon forbid that he should stied in the way
of the motion. If the noble duke could point out any means
of alleviating the distress which had been described, he
(Earl Darnley) would give him his vote. But to go into
a committee, and examine every scheme which would be
brought forward with a view of benefltting the parties whom it was
i intended to benefit, he was fully persuaded that if the motion were
carried, it would only end in disappointment. Under these circum-
stances, such being the impression of :his own mind, he could not
assent to the proposition of the noble duke. He would not now take
up the time of the house by stating his own views with respect eltber
to the cause of the distress, or its extent, but he must be permitted
to say that he did not believe the distress was either se great or so
general as many noble lords imagined. His conviction on this sub.
ject was, that the distress, although pressing, which he mast admit,
was not so general, nor of so desperate a nature as many believed.

Lord HOLLAND was surprised that the noble earl who had last
addressed their lordships should have expressed himself unfavour.
able to the motion, because, when the noble earl, a few days ago,
spoke on the subject of the poor of Ireland, he took credit to him.
self for having proposed a committee on that subject—which had
not been adopted by their lordships ; but that the other house of
parliament had now acceded to the formation of a committee, hay.
log a similar object in view. (Hear.) He (Lord Holland) was also
surprised at the course taken by the noble lord opposite,
the Privy Seal (the Earl of Rosalyn), who had described the
consequences as being frightful, should their lordships con.
sent to go into a Committee. If he (Lord Holland) were not mis-
taken, there had been actually within the last few days, a Commit.
tee agreed to for the poor of Ireland. The Noble Earl (Lord Darn.
ley) had always senn, against an distinction between the people
of Ireland and land.—(Hear. But it would seem that them
wu to be a distin and the oble Earl countenanced it.--(A
laugh.)—He (Lord Holland) was desirous of seeing Parliament
tile its rights. If measures were to be adopted for the benefit
of the people, be liked to see them done by the Parliament.—
He was not a radical reformer, like his friend below him (the
Earl of Radnor), who had manfully avowed himself as such,
and who had, with an acuteness peculiarly his own, advanced
arguments favouring his views. He (Lord Holland) had been
however, charged by some persons with at least a taint of reform
about him. He had never advanced arguments which might be
construed as favouring that doctrine, so powerful as had been ad.
veined that night, even by noble lords opposite, high in office. The
arguments of those noble lords was, that parliament could do no-
thing—for they urged that no good could be done by the appoint.
ment of a committee. Why, was not this putting aside the forms of
Parliament, and, in fact, advocating radical reforms The arguments
of those noble lords went to the abrogation of Parliamentary
forms and proceedings. He was anxious to see the true constitu-
tional mode practised—that of addressing the two Hou.es of Par.
'Lament. The reason why he voted against the motion of the Noble
Earl below him (Earl Stanhope) was, that he:conceived the motion
too general : the objects likely to be three introduced were of too
multifarious a description. He believed that the Crown had been
lately addressed for the purpose of effecting a reform of Parliament
and, on some occasions, the Noble Duke at :he head of Adminis.
tration had been appealed to to redress some grievances. (Hear.)
These were bad signs of the times, which It was the duty of the
House to correct. The Noble Lord, in conclusion, signified his
intention of voting in favour of the motion.

Lord ELLENBOROUOH (who entered the house at an eatly
period of the debate) concurred in what had fallen from the noble
baron, that whatever could be done for the benefit of the community
ought to be done by parliament. The noble baron, however, could
not impute, with justice, to his Majesty's government any intention
of withholding from the people benefits which they could confer.
Ministers bad invariably shown a wish to alleviate the burdens of
the people, and they had never shrunk from the responsibility
which attached to them. The objection which his Majesty's
ministers entertained to the motion of the noble duke was.
that they did not conceive any good would result were the com-
mittee to be appointed. The noble baron could not charge the
government with a want of sympathy. His majesty's ministers
possessed as much sympathy for the sufetings of the people as
the noble baron himselt.—(hear, hear.) The noble lord had pro-
ceeded to describe the labours of a committee. After which he
said he never knew a committee probe a subject to the bottom ; he
never knew an instance which was thorougly investigated by one,
unless he excepted a committee where opinions were can.
valved of which the noble Baron was a member. That investi.
gation was certainly conducted by the noble baron with a degree
of ingenuity and success seldom witnessed (but probably not
with much advantage to the country)—he meant with respect to the
Athanasian Creed. (A laugh.) If the committee were acceded to.
in all probability there would be a variety of topics introduced, each
noble lord would have a favourite subject to investigate. Within
the last nine months a number of committees had been formed, the
subjects of which might, with propriety, be introduced into the
labours of the committee moved for by the noble duke. With their
lordships' pennhaion be would read some elite titles of those corn.
mittees. They were on the following subjects : Agricultural distress,
foreign trade,the post laws,the game laws,exportation of machinery.
emigration, parochial settlements, parish vestries, Irish vagrants, and
other importantsabjects. A committee like that moved for was likely
to embraces° many subjectsthat no end would be found to itslabours.
The witnesses to be examined would be numerous. Them would
be the writers of all the pamphlets on the topics included in the in.
Tay. He had a list of topics upon which pamphlets had been
written, connected with the subject. There were lb writers who
had issued pamphlets on the corn laws; seven on the currency ques-
tion ; and others equally numerous who had exercised their pens on
subjects which might be supposed to bear upon the labours of the
committee. The appointment of such a committee as that sought
to he established, he was fully persuaded could not be attended with
benefit, but on the contrary ; and therefore he could never assent to
the motion.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE could not forbear troubling
the house, after the speech of the nettle baron who had just sat
down, with a few observations why he gave his support to the
motion. The argtunents of that noble baron were against the prac-
tice of parliament. He had denounced the formation of the Com.
mattes of that house. (hear. hear.) His line of argument was
decidedly in favour of radical reform. (hear, hear.) What
would the people of Manchester, and of Binningluun. who
were suffering to the extent they had heard described,
think, it their Lordships should refuse an inquit into the
condition of the working classes ? AVhilst he (the Marquis of
Lansdowne) had the honour of a seat among their lordships while
he existed—he would adhere to the forms of the house. (Hear.
hear.) If their lordships abandoned the interests of the people—if
they attended not to their complaints--what would be the effect'
not such as had been contemplated by the noble baron, but the
consequences would be of the must serious description, decoke-
tire of the Constitution itself. The arguments of the noble
earl (Privy Seal) had somewhat surprised him. This was a new
theory of committees, as well as that of the noble baron. The
grounds upon which he (Lord L.) had opposed the motion of his
noble friend near hint (Earl Stanhope) on a former night were Moe
—that the motion was of toogeneral a nature. The motion, however,
now submitted to their lordships was not liable to that objectior,
and therefore be should give it his cordial support. The motion was
for a specific inquiry—it had a specific object. On the et:talon
to which he had alluded, he had declared that, if any noble
Lord brought forward a specific motion on the subject, he would
give it his support; and he now redeemed his pledge. being perfectiv
satisfied, from the manly character of the Noble Duke alto had
brought tontrard the prevent motion (cheers) that nothing was intend-
ed by it more than the words of the motion expressed r—there was
ootbing kept secret—nothing lurking behind the terms themselves
la addition to these reasons, he thought the present a good time to
game the inquiry, for no party feelings prevailed in the House.
The Noble Lord who spoke last had stated that the object
should be to produce stability. What ! stability to the pre-
sent condition of the poor! Could any titan wish fur it? A
more unnatural condition had never existed than that between the
poor and their employers at the pros nt moment. The noble mar-
quis then quoted a statement of the condition of several parishes in
Oloucestetshire which described 20 out of 24 as containing one-third
more labourers than the land required. Out of that superobut.dancv
the middle-aged and married men, who must be relieved, were em-
ployed at low wage, the test being made up out of the poot-
noes, while the youngest and ablest were not employed at all.
and thus systetnatically driven out of the parish. (HW, hear,
hear). Ile knew that these circumstances might be accounted
fee is fumy ways; but this tarnished an additional reason for
going into a committee. Another point to occupy the attention
of the Canaan*: was the necessity of adopting some alteration is
the law of settlement to prevent it from operating to deter persons
from making establishments. The influence of taxation upon the
productive indutory of the country called also fee itiveofigation....
These was use article, in particular. to which he should allude in
illustration of this panto* the subject, and that was the article of
sea borne coals. It could hardly be disputed but that it was
for the advantage of the matey that fie) should be equally
diffused. That, however, was not the case. It was the pa-
ductiaa at mom counties ; and this partiality of redoubt!.
instead of being remedied or mitigated, was aggravated by
the state of the law. The manifest tepdency of all mob laws
was to prevent the,growth of manufactures, mad in that way
to disatrumge the productive tmlusay of the eountry.—(liass.}.
lie did not complain of whet the (40WCTSUU0Di had already done-
with respect to the reduction of. toes. On the euotrary, he admit
ted that they were judicious as. far as they went, but reduction
might set to mop titers. Many rases would admit of Willi re-