The Sun.
London, England, 1820-10-06 00:00:00

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vitnesses coming to speak to her Majesty's cha-
racter. if such a foul and odious interference
had been exercised, he did not know what course
tot ight be pursued in other Courts of Justice,
but he thought it would be quite sufficient grounds
for their Lordships to put an end at once to a
ra°ceeding which had neither the appearance of
w or j
J ustice. These observations he made as a
~udge, sitting there to do justice, and he hoped
their Lordships would not consider it unnecessary
to move that the Counsel be called upon to know
Is'llether proofs could be adduced in support of
their assertions, and if so, that they be directed
to Proceed.—(Hear, hear !)--The Noble Lord
concluded by moving that the Counsel be called
t° the Bar, and asked if they had proofs to pro-
duce in in support of the allegations they had made
kith respect to the obstruction of her Majesty's
witnesses.
aLord LIVERPOOL perfectly agreed with the
°hie Lord, that if such an interference did
:41" place, it was most unjust. But he felt it
tY he owed himself, a duty he owed his
J,esty's Government, and particularly that part
1,-; the Government (the Secretary of State for
°reign Affairs,) to mention, that it was their
-cadc,re disposition to afford precisely the same fa-
'ties to one as the other. And he would ap-
teal to two Honourable Gentlemen, Dr. Lush-
tj',gt°n and Mr. Vizard, for they were the Gen-
:hi:a"' who principally had the communication,
0 ether they did not give this assurance on the
t4trt; and that copies of all the instructions
()
-°reign States had been shewn to them, and
told I,'e, :.`eved, delivered to them, and were also
du that should they appoint any agent to con-
cirtettythe affairs of her Majesty, that every fa-
should be afforded them.—(Hear, hear !)
Conn(' "e assured the House that had the Learned '
ob;insel for the Queen, when they met these
tar -,,,aces, applied to the Office of the Secre-
.staJo°l State for Foreign Affairs, that those ob-
-11,-es,Prould be removed as well as they could.
in th-at" then, that every thing that could be done
and .e. case had been done b> this Governmeut ;
nod:`,any special difficulty had arisen, he would
if h-,rtaLile to say, as lie had before notified, that
rei:r majesty's Counsel had applied to the Fo-
tliftrii?ce, stating that they had met with any
tate c,„tY in getting witnesses to come over, not
to , '"°ment would have been lost in taking steps
Ile'en'nve that difficulty.--(hear, hear !)—And
lid"dertook to say now, that if any of the indi-
Ncaals who had been mentioned should he thought
tik,s!arY by her Majesty's Counsel for their case,
Nv2, 'lad only to say so, and he (Lord Liverpool)
tvit.'li take care that not two hours should elapse
of "onto messenger being sent off for the purpose
li,acau„sing him to come to this country.—(Hear,
Ajj')----if no requisition should be made by her
''"tY's Counsel, it would appear thatthey had
pt reason to complain of these witnesses being
3"ented from coming ; and if they had no rea-
koll lint the complaint, their Lordships would
it.° vi-,1"ow to judge of the motives which dictated
triokr'nis, however, he repeated, that if they did
hour e the requisition, in the course of two
hearsh a messenger should be sent off—(Hear,
tiou- respect to the individual in ques-
hav-e (General Pino), and what was alleged to
ass -„,ak, taken place in the North of Italy, he must
hislll,- the House, that from circumstances within
he 'lleblvledge, connected with the transaction,
rof Q.-°4ld not believe what was put in the mouth
roue; "rat Pino. He had seen a correspondence
ilo-ng to the subject, and he could inform the
qo'se that the only object which the Austrian
hooverilrnent had in view in giving orders that
itsiq
f its officers should appear in this country
froi.h uniform, was to prevent that uniform
had "Leing exposed to insult. That Government
tar, 'Ought this precaution the more neces-
t4kJe after becoming acquainted with what had
4.14„ Place on the landing of some foreigners
aPpr,-,:,er• The rule which had been laid down
016-" as much to one side as the other; but the
ligh-ter,in question might have taken it up in the
appe °I something derogatory from his dignity to
had al; in a private dress. But their Lordships
that its-en two British Naval Officers appear at
(lid at without being in uniform, which to them
h. not beiappear dishonourable. He declared it as
tnlod lei that no such reason operated on the
toll Of General Pino. He had some other rea-
orne est known to himself for not choosing to
Bess (:kver• As to Baron Eden, or the other wit-
the 'c'e Chamberlain, he could only say that if
re%lnset persisted in stating that their case
quited they
"'self that should come over, he pledged
steps t not an hour should be lost in taking
Thp° that effect.—(Hear, hear!),
exp,„i 'Juke of WELLINGTON said, he knew from
ttental Governments
that the Austrian and other Conti-
likeer -/-overntoents were extremely averse to
of this appearing in uniform upon any occasion
their kind• They wished them to appear in
4 thecravate Capacity, from an apprehension that
didkt'n 'net with any insult while in uniform, or
vlhcer Y thing derogatory to the situation of an
•
the se' it would be considered as reflecting on
1.11 rv.rice to which they belonged.—(Hear !)
itetiFtr:hCeIIANCELLOR stated to the Counsel
wish of the House to know whe-
f the y were prepared with proofs in support
ftrene assertions just now alluded to, with re-
(lett a:dto,the Chamberlain of the Duke of Ba-
Mr.-B"eneral Pino.
RouGIIAM did not imagine that he should
partiotlb
called on to produce his witnesses,
amid 1,1 arr'Y as it was out of the course which he
adopt. "..earned Colleagues had thought fit to
Set t
ho h lie stated that many of the witnesses
hN be produced were still at Milan. But that
speak some witnesses who could be called to
their 1° Some of those facts which occupied
Plied
.'ordships' attention. They had not ap-
-11,14 ge:t°itahg's Majesty's Government for assistance
011 over their witnesses, although they
Wave one over
his Majesty's Government would
corn
(Fley h
,e forward in a bona fide manner; for
(le'veruaol'i seen with what willingness foreign
1'044 ents had come forward to help over the
made for the
Bill, and what exertions they
re sgain to obstruct The coming of those who
tThey had; therefore; just rea-

son to suspect that that aid would prove nuga-
tory to them, whilst it made the prosecutors ac-
quainted a long time before with the names of
the persons they meant to call for the defence ;
and he should be prepared to she w, at a future
time, that attempts had been made to tamper
with witnesses, who were ascertained to be in
their favour. In the mean time he was prepared
to bring proof of all that had been said with re-
spect to the Chamberlain of the Grand Duke of
Baden.

The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, that no imputa-
tion was meant to be thrown on the Counsel at
the bar. At the same time, it was to be observed
they admitted that no requisitions to Government
had been made. With respect to the inference
of the Learned Counsel, that for certain reasons
which he stated, they had reason to doubt the
efficiency of the aid of Government, he must say
that it was worth nothing ; for they might at least
have tried it, and then that reflection might with
some show of reason be made. He repeated his
offer on the part of his Majesty's Government, to
afford every assistance possible in the event of its
being wanted.
Earl GREY explained.
The Loan CuA.NctcLon thought that Counsel
having declared that they thought that part of
their case material, which was to be proved by
the Chamberlain of the Grand Duke of Baden,
they ought to be called in to prove by evidence
at the Bar, the allegations they had made with
respect to that individual. But even if they
should prove all that had been advanced with re-
spect to the Chamberlain, and still maintain that
his evidence was material, he should not think it
sufficient to warrant the suspension of these pro-
ceedings. Although they had no means of sum-
moning foreign witnesses, by any thing which
could have the power or force of a subpoena, yet
it appeared there was a mode to be made use of
by applying for the interposition of our own Go-
vernment. This was a point that should not be
forgotten ; and as that was the only means that
could be used, and as her Majesty's Counsel had
not made use of, or applied for those means, he
could not see what claim they could have to the
indulgence of their Lordships.
Earl GREY observed, that as an application
to his Majesty's Government would have all the
effect, he should not move for the suspension of

these proceedings.
Lord DONOUGHMORE thought that their Lord-
ships ought not to pass over the charge which had
been brought against his Majesty's Government
by the Counsel at the Bar. The statement went
as far as to say that witnesses had been com-
pelled by the Executive Power to come in sup-
port of this Bill, and that compulsion had been
used by Foreign Powers unresisted by our own
Government, to prevent witnesses from coming.
If this was not the impression intended to be
conveyed, he did not understand words and
gestures which were the most significant. There
was much of inflammation, and there had been
much of misrepresentation in this affair, and he
hoped their Lordships would resist such conduct
in lintine. It had gone too far already. If the
Queen wanted witnesses, whose fault was it ?
Her Majesty's Counsel had not made that appli-
cation which alone could ensure them the atten-
dance of those witnesses. This complaint about
the obstruction of witnesses made a very good
finale to the statement of the Counsel for the

Queen.
Lord HOLLAND defended the conduct of the
Queen's Counsel, and contended that his Noble
Friend (the Earl of Donoughmore) was not per-
fectly consistent when he complained of them.
The Queen's Counsel complained, that the arm
of power had prevented their being able to pro-
duce their witnesses. It was not for the Counsel
to explain the motives which had led to the ex-
ercise of that power. If the Counsel in the exer-
cise of their talents thought it for the advantage
of their cause to raise particular ideas in the
minds of the Judges, they had a right to do so,
and it was for the Judges to hear them ; but if
they exceeded the bounds within which they
ought to confine themselves, it was their Lord-
ships' duty to tell them they were going too far,
and must direct their attention to other points.
But he would ask if it were worthy of their cha-
racter, or if it were consistent with their dignity
and duty, to enter into an altercation with Coun-
sel, and descend to answer any insinuations that
might have been throw►. out, or to comment on
the statements that had been made.
The Earl of DONOUGHMORE explained. He
had no intention to impute any improper motive
to her Majesty's Counsel, and he would not suf-
fer any Noble Lord to cast an imputation upon
him without repelling and entering his protest
against it. At the same time, he was well assur-
ed that his Noble Friend (Lord Holland) did

not intend to use any unkind expression, altho'
he had appeared to accuse him (Lord Donough-
more) of inconsistency. He had not entered in-
to an altercation with the Counsel ; he had
merely argued upon their own expressions.
The LORD CHANCELLOR begged their Lord-
ships would indulge him with the hearing of a
very few words. He fully concurred in opinion
with the Noble Lord who spoke last but one, that
the House should not enter into altercation with
any Counsel at their Lordships' Bar. Indeed, he
should have to apologize to the House if any
Counsel had made use of an improper expression,
and he (the Lord Chancellor) had not interposed.
But their Lordships were aware of the duties
which fell to his lot to discharge, and were aware
how difficult it was to discharge them. A Judge
interrupted proceedings at great hazard, when
he took upon himself to state what would or
would not be of importance to the proceedings.
Looking at the course which the Learned
Counsel had been taking, he did not see
that there was any cause for interrupting him.
The Counsel had argued, that, under the cir-
cumstances of the case, her Majesty ought not
to be called upon to produce witnesses at all, and
urged the peculiar difficulties which they stated
had been thrown in the way of their producing evi-
dence. They stated also that letters had been
addressed to the Cbaraberlaia of the Duke of

Baden, and to the Duke himself ; that the
Chamberlain was willing to come, but that he
was forbidden by his Court. There appeared
here, he thought, nothing to call for interposition.
Something too had been said about Gen. Pino and
his uniform ; but nothing, he conceived, to call
for the displeasure of the House. If, any insi-
nuation had been thrown out by the Learned
Counsel, it was to be found in what he did not
say, and not in what he did, for he had observed
" the Lawyers too were kept away, and any body
may judge why."
Lord HOLLAND explain i.
JAMES LE MANN was then called in and examined
by Mr. DENMAN.
Q. Are you Clerk to Mr. Vizard, Solicitor to
her Majesty ?—A. Yes.
Were you sent by the Queen to Carlsruhe was.
On what day did you lease England fur that purpose ?—On
the Ist September.
On what day did you arrive at Carlsrube ?—On the 14th
September.
Were yoir provided with a letter from the Queen addressed
tr, any person at Carlsruhe ?—.l had a letter from her Majesty
directed to the Chamberlain of the Grand Duke of Baden.
Did you report to the Chamberlain that he was required
to attend in England witness on the part of her Ma-
jesty ?—Yes.
Du you recollect on what day you did so ?—lt was on the
17th that I first saw him.
Did you on that day make the communication in question ?
—I did.
Did you then take any deposition, with a view of etiablinz
Counsel to examine him as a witness at the bar of the House ?
—The first time I saw him he was on the road between Baden
and Carlsruhe—l met him on the 17th. _ .

You first saw hint on the 17th on the road between Baden
and Carlsruhe. What did you then tell him ?—I told him
that he was required to attend here as a witness.
Did you take his deposition at any time I—Yes c on the 20th.
Do you know if, at that time, he bad any opportunity of
consulting his minutes ?—He had an opportunity of referring
to his journals, which be kept every day.
Was the Grand Duke at Carlsruhe when you arrived there ?
—He was not.

When did he return ?—On the 21st.
After you had taken his deposition, did the Chamberlain
make any objection to going to England ?—No ; not till he
had seen the Grand Duke, who objected to it.
Did he objtct to come to England, after seeing the Grand
Duke ?—Yes.
Did he state any conditron on which alone be could come to
England ?—He said he could nut come to England without
t hr consent of the Grand Duke.
_ . .

After the return of the Grand Duke, did he make any state-
ment on the subject of his coming to England ?—He told me,
tbat on the 23d he had applied to the Grand Duke, who had
refused to grant him permission to come.
Will you be so good as to state what were his precise
words ?—He said the Grand Duke would not permit him to
come, nor allow him to sign his deposition.
The ATTORNEY•GENERAL was going to interrupt the exa-
mination, but he apprehended that what had been told to the
witness could not be received as evidence on the case.
The LORD CHANCELLOR thought what the Grand Duke
had said might be stated.
The ATTORNEY7E:sfET6,I. submitted that it could not be
received as evidence.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said, it would not be evidence.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL remarked, that what they wanted
was, that this should be clearly understood.
Examination resumed.

Q. Did be state any thing else as a reason for not coming
to England ?—A. lam not aware that he did. He said that
he enjoyed his estate in Hanover through the King of Eng•
land, but that would not prevent his coming over, as be was
satisfied that his Majesty would not think the worse of him
for so doing.
Did you have any other corhmunication with him ?—I did ;
I wrote a letter to him.
Did he do what you required ?—He did not.
Did he ever give you any reason for not coating over, other
than that which you have mentioned ?—Nu; he said he could
nut come without the consent of the Grand Duke.

Was there a Mr. Mandeville there ?—He was.
Were you in company with him ?—No.
At no time ?—Nu.
Did he know that you were there ?—He did.
Did you communicate to him that you were there on the
part of the Queen ?—I did not.
When did you return to this country ?—The day before
yesterday.
Do you know whether during your abode at Carlsruhe any
other person arrived on the part of the Queen ?—Yes. Mr.
Siccard came.
Do you know of any application made by him ? Do you
know whether he wrote this letter ?—I know it, because I
saw him write it.
Yon returned to this country the day before yesterday ?
Yes.
You left it the Ist of September, and arrived at Carlsruhe
on the 14th ?—so that if you had applied to the Govern-
',tient immediately, twelve days must have passed before
your communication on the subject could have been received
—Yes.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL. had no questions to ask this
witness.