The Sun.
London, England, 1845-03-08 00:00:00

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that
the duty on beet sugar was an excise duty, and that was the
reason why it was net mentioned in the resolutions. It was
bis intention in the course of a few days to introduce a re-
olution, making a proportionate reduction on sugar the pro-
Lice of beet.
The House then went into Committee.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then rose for
tire purpose of introducing his sugar resolutions, and said that
with regard to the policy of enforcing a distinctive duty on
di Terent classes of sugar, he thought it right to avail himself of
the opportunity to explain to the House the reasons why he
deemed it advisable to adhere in substance to the course pro.
posed by her Majesty's Government, and he would Hot suffer
Vmself to be drawn aside from his task by anything that had
been said in the preliminary discussion. He would admit, at
twee, that in attempting to impose a discriminating duty on
sugar according to its quality, he was undertaking a subject
which was attended with considerable difficulty—( Hear)—
end he never concealed from himself, nor did he now,
that it was always a matter of difficulty to impose a
duty of that description, and it was particularly difficult where
the course to be pursued was a departure from the [ordinary
p-actice. But it was admitted generally by those who were
di :posed to take a different view of this question from his own,
di it a distinctive duty on sugar was in itself a desirable object,
gee the a duty proportionate to the quality of the sugar was
just and perfectly equitable in principle; and it was one,
which if it could he practically introduced, would be fair to-
le eels every interest concerned in the decision of the question.
was also generally admitted that there ought to be some
el,stinction between refined sugar introduced into this country
s-,a that which might be introduced in a state short of refined ;
seel he was anxious that the Committee should bear in mind
those admissions with regard to what should fall from him.
The question that would remain for the decision of the Corn-
seqtee was whether they would, in consideration of the diffi-
eetities attending the introduction of two distinctive
tuties, they would abandon a measure which, viewed
fti the abstract, was just in principle and desirable
ler every interest concerned ?—( Hear, hear.) The Committee
eliould bear in mind the effect of the decision they would arrive
a'. They were now for the first time practically entering
into a new era with regard to the sugar duties. They were for
fee first time admitting into competition with the sugar, the
produce of their own colonies, the produce of certain classes of
setgar, the produce of foreign labour. Now they knew from
experience that there were different classes of foreign sugar,
seme being of a finer quality in respect of classification than
the corresponding quality of sugar produced in their own colo-
isies.—( Hear, hear.' It had been already observed that
tee finer quality of sugar would necessarily come into
the markets of this country, while the lower descrip-
tions of raw and clayed sugar would not be introduced.
They had found it necessary to impose a distinctive duty upon
fie sugar of their own colonies, and therefore they could not do
to herwise with regard to the foreign produce. Besides, by
imposing a lower duty on the sugars consumed by the poorer
casses, they were conferring a great benefit upon these classes.
its they were now about to make a change in the system, they
ought not to abandon the chance of the improvement which he
proposed, and which was equitable in principle and just to all
classes. To equalise the duty on refined and clayed sugar
would cause the refined sugar to be introduced into this coun—
try under the low duty, and thence exported with a higher draw-
Lack ; and therefore he thought that proposition would not be
introduced into the present discussion. The distinction be-
tween refined and clayed sugars had been hitherto clearly
narked; and whatever the difficulties they might have in in-
troducing a new system, it must be remembered that they had
Litherto been acting upon a system of distinctive duties. It
would, he had no doubt, be alleged that a similar principle to
what he proposed had been tried before, and had bees
abandoned. But that was not at all conclusive. The system
which was abandoned in 1823 had worked well for twenty
''ears. There was no difficulty in the distinction between
tnuscovado and clayed sugars, whilst it was confined to the
'West Iddies. But when it was attempted to apply a similar
wile to the East Indies, difficulties arose which led to a change
in the plan on which the duty was imposed. It was attempted,
ein the part of the West Indies, to show that all sugar which
came from the West Indies was clayed, and ought to be excluded
from the lower duty, and therefore, to benefit the West
Indians, an additional duty of 10s. per cwt. was laid upon all
Jiast India sugar; but let them see what was the practice of
other countries as to distinctive duties on sugar. They had
1 cfore the House a Ecomparison of several tariffs, which was
prepared by the industry of a gentleman employed by the
Covernment, and he wished the Gentlemen who thought the
system impracticable would look to that followed in other
countries which imported sugar. In most of these the
came distinctions were used as now possessed. In
Denmark, the duty on raw brown clayed sugars was 10s.
Tier cwt. On raw white clayed sugar it was Bs. 3d. per cwt.
tOn others, the duty was altogether prohibitory. In Sweden
She duty on refined was 4s. ; on white powdered, 2s. 6d. ; on
•ecllovr brown, Is. He would not go into a detail of the tariffs
oaf France and the United States, which, next to this country,
-mere the greatest consumers of imported sugars. France im-
lmrted annually 8.5,000 tons, and the United States 65,000.
They also employed this system of distinction, which was
pound to effect its object, and without complaint. In France
the distinction was classified into four types, and in the United
:States he found in the tariff the same threefold division which
vas contained in these resolutions. Now he did not think so
tadly of the business of the House and of the country as that
we could not carry into effect a system which was found
pactieable in other countries, in which, certainly, the
eeiservance of the law was not more faithful on
the part of the public servants, and of those who
*paid the duties, than in this country. He had, therefore, the
strongest reason to believe that a distinctive duty would be
Mound practicable, and it was admitted by all to be equitable.
'The next point was, what was the opinion of those in this
country who are acquainted with the subject ? Those to whom
the Government must look on questions of this kind—that is,
the Customs—were they favourable to the plan? They had the
s'-port of the Chairman of the Customs to that effect.
'The evidence of the officers who had been examined was—not
that there was no difficulty—but that the difficulties were not
:in any degree insurmountable, and ou the whole they thought
that the attempt ought to be made. Nor had he confined his
:inquiries to those who were connected with the Government,
acrd who might be disposed to concur in the views of the Go-
vernment. But he had put himself in communication with
!persons who were practically acquainted with the trade ; some
said that the plan was impracticable; others thought there
were difficulties, bat that the plan was nevertheles both prac-
ticable and expedient. But he found from the admissions of
those who were most opposed to it, that their opinions were
riot altogether to be relied on ; and, in fact, it was the prac-
t ice of the trade, to make the same distinc-
tions in buying and selling. He had also acquired
slew knowledge as to the practice in respect to
Java sugar, which was divided into twenty sorts, and these
sere judged of from samples sent in numbered boxes to this
country. The buyer selected the quantity he wished for, and
the number being sent out to Java, the order was executed ac-
cerdingly. What was practicable between buyer and seller,
could not be impracticable for the purpose of duty. He
tad also the advantage of a meeting at Liverpool, which,
was open to all connected with the trade, and a majo-
rity, though certainly a small one, decided in favour of the
pan. It was thought at that meeting that the chief difficulty
would be in this, that the officers of the Customs at the out-
posts might have different opinions as to the qualities from the
officers in London, and that this would lead to confusion. But
it was to be recollected that the outports where sugar was im-
ported were but few, and were not now at a great distance
from London in regard to time. London imported one.fifth
whole quantity, and Liverpool another fifth ; and there were,
besides, only four or five ports for the importation of sugar.
TberefOre, whatever objections there might formerly have
been, did not exist now. The words which he had introduced
into the resolutions were—that the sugars should be " lis-
t inctly marked as white clayed,:or sugars equal to white clayed,"
in order to shut out any question as to colour; and in the Bill
which would be brought in to give effect to the resolutions,
care would be taken to prevent colour being made the test of
attaching the duty.—( Hear, hear. ) In that he was supported
by the highest authorities—amongst others by Mr. Deacon Hume,
a man who had spent the whole of his life in connexion with
the subject. Relying on such authority, en that of several
'Boards of Trade, and on that of those who preceded him in the
office which he held, he was convinced that it was for the in-
terest of the consumer, the grower, and the dealer, that the
distinctions which he introduced should be maintained.
Mr. HUME did not wish at that moment to enter into a
slebate. But he would suggest that time should be given to
the growers and others to dispose of the stock which they had
in. hand.
Mr. F. BARING was understood to say that the resolu-
ti ins might be taken now, and that the suggestion of his Hon.
'Friend (Mr. Hume) might be introduced in the Bill.
Sir R. PEEL said that a clause might be added at the end,
according to the suggestion of the Hon. Member for Beverley.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought that
it would not be expedient to extend long the time before the
Dill should come into operation.
Mr. M. GIBSON said that the preamble of the resolutions
stated that the purpose of the duties was to raise a supply for
her Majesty; whereas, it was avowed by the Government
that one of the objects was to give a bounty to the growers of
Sugar in the West Indies. Now he thought the preamble
ought to state the whole of the objects.— ( Hear.)
Mr. HUME apprehended that as a Committee of Ways and
Illeans could only vote supplies for her Majesty, they could not
adnt measures to raise money to put into the pockets of %Vest
India proprietors.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said they
had power to vote the money, because it was for the purposes
of the Crown.
Mr. HUME protested that they had not.
Mr. WARD asked if it ought not to be distinctly stated
w hat part of the rate went to the Crown, and what part went
into the pockets of the producer?
Mr. WILLIAMS thought the resolution answered the
etuestion put by the Hon. Member, because it stated how much
wes saved for the public service, and how much was raised for
the use of the West ledia proprietors.
Lord SANDON said all the money raised would, in fact, go
to the Crown.—( Laughter. )
Mr. M. GIBSON moved the insertion of the following
words, after the word " Majesty : " " For the purpose of giving
a bounty to the growers of sugar in the colonies." This, he
thought, would make the rate intelligible to the public.
Mr. GREENE ruled that the amendment could not be
received.
Mr. M. GIBSON said he certainly heard the Chairman,
the last time they were in a Committee on Ways and Means,
put the first resolution towards raising the supplies granted to
her Majesty, that " in lieu of the duties of customs there be
levied the following duties on sugar." The resolution was car-
ried and afterwards withdrawn. They were now going to
move a resolution for the benefit of the colonists, and, there-
lore, he presumed it was the intention of the Government to
abandon the former resolution. It was, therefore, hard that
he could not move an amendment to the original resolution.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought the
lien. Gentleman could not be serious, and if he were not, he
could only tell him that this was not the time to joke. They
were then in a Committee of Ways and Means for granting her
Majesty supplies, and it did not matter in what terms they
framed their resolutions.
Mr. BRIGHT protested against the Right Hon. Gentleman
assuming the amendment to be al jest. He did not think it was
joke at all, for the Hon. Gentleman who had brought forward
this question was the representative of a large manufacturing
with constituency, whose trade Brazil would be totally de-
otroyed if the resolution were agreed to.--( Hear, hear.) He
P
must protest against this hop, skip, jumpsort of a manner
of voting away the public moneyand a
for the service of the West
India planter; and instead of meeting the amendment
ebmy
ecnaltlintgo
it a joke, it would be much better for te vrn
grapple with it at once.
Sir ROBERT PEEL entreated the Hon. Member for
Manchester not to persist in interfering with the usual course
of business of the House.
Mr. M. GIBSON said, if the Chairman ruled that he was
not in order with his amendment, of course he could not per-
sist in it. It was said that his amendment was at variance
with the usual practice of the House. Now, it was admitted
that a Committee of Ways and Means would violate the spirit of
their rules if it interfered with the matters connected with
trade. The distinction between a Committee of the whole
House and a Committee of Ways and Means, he understood to
this :—in a Committee of Ways and Means they must confine
themselves to voting supplies to her Majesty's Go-
vernment ; in a Committee of the whole House, they
could pass resolutions regulating or relating to trade. He
therefore thought it would be more regular that they should
agree to the present resolution in a Committee of :the whole
Mouse, and not in a Committee of Ways and Means. It was
8 hard cafe that he was not permitted to add those words, be-