The Sun.
London, England, 1845-06-04 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON,_ WEDNESDA 1
_EVENING, JUNE 4, 1845.

this was to be ascribed that state of feeling, and the condition
of party, that at the present time, and for some time past, had
characterised that unhappy country. But a better day
had dawned; and a Government who would now attempt to
govern Catholic Ireland upon such narrow and prejudiced
grounds, however well qualified they might be for a Protestant
community, were not equal to the task of legislating for a grea
empire like this, and especially for such a country as Ireland,
with its large Catholic population. With regard to the monster
meetings that had been held in Ireland, the majesty of the law
had been vindicated, a better state of feeling was induced, and
the effect of a conciliatory policy was now being tried wader a
Lord-L'eutenant, who had, as yet, shown a kind and impartial
policy in his government of Ireland. The old party distinc-
tions could no longer he maintained ; and, unless they went in
agreement with Irish interests and Irish sympathies in every
way, directly and indirectly, endeavouring to act justly and im-
partially towards the people of that country, the peace and
prosperity of Ireland could not be secured.—( Hear,
hear.) The present measure was a great advance,
and a debt of deep gratitude was due to the
present Government for introducing it, and in so doing
sacrificing friends, suffering misconstruction, and endangering
their popularity. These were so many proofs of the respect
which ought to be paid them for their courage and disin-
terestedness in submitting to Parliament such a measure of
justice to the people of Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) Notwith-
standing the loss of supporters and the clamour that had been
raised out of doors against their enlightened proceedings, they
would have the reflection of having done a great act of justice
under very trying circumstances to an oppressed people, and
would command the approbation and esteem of all enlightened
and liberal minds.—( Hear, hear.)
The Earl of WINCHILSEA never rose with more con-
flicting feelings than at the present moment, especially when
he found himself opposed, on public grounds, to those whom he
regarded in fact as Ministers of the country, and alienated from
those with whom he had hitherto lived in the firmest ties of
friendship; and he trusted that when many of those friends
looked back, in years to come, upon the vote of that night, and
the two subsequent votes that would ratify the measure, they
might not feel that remorse which many a statesman who voted
for the fatal measure of 1829 experienced to his latest hour.
—( Hear, hear.) How had the question hitherto been dis-
cussed—how had its greatest and ablest advocate treated it in
the other House? By a mase of jesuitical casuistry
and mystified sophistry (Cries of " Hear, hear")
which, after reading and reperusing, only brought him
to the conclusion that its propounder must have been edu-
cated in a seminary of Jesuits. He protested against it in
the name of the Protestants of England, whose petitions
against it crowded their table, and in the other House had
amounted to more than 11.000, signed by 1,500,000 per-
sons. He protested, however, against it on even higher
grounds—that, as a national endowment of the Church of
Rome, it was in opposition to their God. The ultra-Mon-
taine doctrines taught in the class-books of the College of
Maynooth were so monstrous that no man who upheld the
tenets of the Anglican Church, could conscientiously support
them—the supremacy of the Pope, the reservation of the oath
inculcated by the principle of salvo jure superioris, the decla-
ration of the superiority of the ecclesiastical over the civil
power—were doctrines so abhorrent to Protestantism and the
principles of the realm, that no member of the latter church
could possibly consent to their promulgation. It had been
said that this grant of 30,0001. would render the education of
Maynooth less exclusive and more liberal. But what security
had they that such would be the case? He maintained that it
would be a mental delusion if they passed this measure, and
he called upon the Noble Lord behind (Lord Beaumont) and
other Noble Lords to stand forward and save the general body
of the Irish people from the principles taught in that
seminary. Let them give to the Roman Catholics all they
require excepting this support to a system of education which
England conscientiously believed to be opposed to the true
worship of God. It was, indeed, a most important and
serious question, but let them do honestly and fairly what God,
their consciences, and their country, required from them—
( Cheers)—and let them leave the issue in His hands who was
able to save them. He would call upon their Lordships not
to abandon their sacred duties, and he would say, with the
Right Reverend Prelate who spoke last, that rather than see
doctrines so opposed to Christianity recognised by the State,
he should with him raise his voice, and use his utmost endea-
vours to sever the Protestant Church front the State; nor
would he rest until that severance were effected. This mea-
sure could not pass, for the Protestantism of England was too
strong to allow the Government to educate five hundred
priests without the people making a powerful and successful
stand against it. He prayed their Lordships to consider well
ere they passed a measure which would arouse throughout the
length and width of the country hostile feelings which might
not again be easily allayed.

The Marquis of NORMA NBYsaid that when their Lordships
recollected the part which he had always taken on all questions
connected with the state of Ireland, he trusted they would
pardon his trespassing on their attention at that time. He was
aware how difficult it would be to engage their Lordships' con-
sideration after the energetic and the eloquent speech of the
Noble Earl who had just sat down—a speech distinguished,
too, for the depth of the religious convictions which character-
ised it. But he (Lord Normanby) could not help remarking
that from the Noble Lord opposite, who had just moved the
amendment, down to the Noble Earl who had last spoken, no
Noble Lord who had adopted that view of the question had
once addressed himself to the real question opened by the
Noble Duke—namely, that this was a legislative measure of
justice to seven millions of Irish Catholics—to seven-eighths of
the population of a great nation. When the Noble Earl
made reference to the state of religious education in the colo-
nies, he was obligec to refer to his Noble Friend the Secretary
of State for the Colonies for the fact that we were obliged
to maintain other churches than the Establishment of
England. It was proved in those cases, as in the case
of Ireland, that it was utterly impossible to force religion upon
a large mass of people who were conscientiously opposed to it.
With regard to what the Noble Earl had said of the ultra-
montaine doctrines alleged to be taught at Maynooth, a full
answer had been given by the Noble Lord near him (Lord
Beaumont). The Romish Church did not claim the authority
to release from an oath —not even an oath of allegiance.—
( Hear, Lear.) The Church claimed the authority of releasing
from a vow, to -:which the authorities of the Church were
parties. An oath stood upon quite different grounds. The
Rev. Mathias Croly, who had been a professor in May-
nooth, and was now a Protestant clergyman, having renounced
what were called the errors of Popery, stated, before a Com-
mittee of the other House of Parliament, that he never was
taught to believe, when a student of Maynooth, that he could
violate the oath of allegiance or any other oath. There were
many books read in Maynooth College which he could not
defend. But it had been truly explained that these books
were made class-books for the avowed purpose of controversial
study.—( Hear, hear.) The conduct of the young men educated
in that College proved that there was no immoral effect from
the course of study taught there.—( Hear, hear.) The conduct
of the people also showed that the religious instruction had not
an immoral tendency..--( Hear, hear.) There were, according
to the official returns, seventy crimes against property com-
mitted in England—taking the population into account—for
thirty committed in Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) With respect to
temperance, it was not to be denied that the Irish were
now in a position superior to that of all other people
in the world (Hear, hear) and that was in itself
a proof of the useful influence of the priests.—(Hear, hear. )
It had been said by a Noble Lord opposite that the bishops
settled in their periodical conferences the amount of crime
which was to be committed before their next meeting.—
(Hear, hear.) That was so monstrous a misstatement, that he
would not detain their Lordships by discussing it.—(Hear,
hear.) He was ready to admit that there had been a great
increase of crime within the last year. But there had been
many causes to account for it, without arguing with the Noble
Duke (the Duke of Newcastle), who attributed the increase to
the conference of bishops, and the conduct of the priests. He
could bear testimony to the constant and unwearied exertions
of the Roman Catholic priests to restrain violence, to check
immorality. and to inculcate order.—( Hear, hear.) He had
heard with regret the speech of the Right Rev. Prelate (the
Bishop of Cashel) last night, which he was sorry to say exhi-
bited by no means a feeling of sympathy or charity towards
millions of his fellow Christians, amongst whom his ministry
was ordained.—( Hear, hear.) The Right Rev. Prelate stated
that there might be some appointment made to the professor-
ships in Maynooth which would be objected to by the clergy.
Suppose it were ? Objections were always made against the
elevation of an individual. He had an instance in his own ex-
perience of objections being made to an appointment of a
clergyman in every respect qualified—the late Dr. Sands, whom
he had recommended to a bishopric.—(Hear, hear.) He
would contrast the charge of that excellent man is the clergy
of his diocese with the last charge of the Right Rev. Prelate
opposite.
The Bishop of CASHEL said, that his charge had been
written, printed, and published, and the Noble Marquis was
at liberty to make of it what use he pleased.—( Hear, hear. )
The Marquis of NORMANBY held the printed report of
the charge in his hand, and he read from it extracts in which
the Right Rev. Prelate denounced the doctrines of Popery as
" delusive and-soul-damning," and urged his clergy to re-
strain as much as possible their " flocks" from employing as
servants, sr retaining as tenants, persons tainted with the im-
moral and pernicious creed. The Right Rev. Prelate was re-
presented also to have inculcated the doctrine of " exclusive
dealing " in the same address.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble
Marquis was continuing to read the document when he was
inserrupted by
The Bishop of CASHEL, who rose and said—l say that
that is, from beginning to end, an abominable falsehood
and calumny—( Loud cheers)—and I say further, that it
is most discreditable of the Noble Marquis, who must
from his position as Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland have been well
acquainted with the character of the Irish people, to have had
that charge in his pocket for the last two years, and never have
spoken of it till now—(Renewed cheers)—and I would recom-
mend the Noble Marquis to be more cautious, and to read with
more attention any stories he may receive from Ireland, which
he may be inclined to bring forward the next time he is in
want of a speech. (Cheers, and cries of " Order,")
Marquis of NORMANBY—I believe I have shown the
Right Reverend Prelate every courtesy?
Bishop of CASHEL—No, Sir, you have not.—(Loud
cries cf " Order, order.")
The Marquis of NORMANBY said he only received the
letter he had been reading yesterday ; and he would now pro-
ceed to read it, as the letter of a person who had been present
when the Right Reverend Prelate was delivering his charge,
and as conveying the impression that charge made upon him at
the time. The writer rsas a Protestant clergyman.
Lord CHARLE VILLE rose to order. He did think that
after the Right Rev. Prelate had given a distinct denial
to the statement of the let er, as read by the Noble Marquis, it
would not be fair or just in him to proceed.
The Marquis of NORMANBY—The Noble Lord was
wrong. The Right Rev. Prelate had not denied the truth of
the statement. He did not say that there was nothing con-
tained in the letter similar to the contents of the charge.
The Bishop of CASHEL said he would send the Noble
Marquis a copy of the chat ge.
The Marquis of NORMANBY—If the Right Rev. Prelate
said there was not one word of truth in the letter, why then,
of course he (Lord Normanby) would be silent.
The Bishop of CASHEL said that the printed charge was a
verbatim copy of the charge he delivered.
The Marquis of NORMANBY would now proceed to read
tke letter, in order to show the impression made upon the
writer by the charge at which he was present.
The Earl of WINCHILSEA rose to order. He did not
think the Ilouse should listen to the opinions of individuals in
this way ; if they did, he would ask, where was it all to end ?
—( Hear, hear.) The Right Rev. Prelate had stated that the
letter contained what was false, therefore it should not be
read.—(Cheers, and cries of " Order.")
The Marquis of LANSDOW NE and the Earl o! WICKLOW
both rose to order, but the latter gave way to the former, who
contended that his Noble Friend (the Marquis of Normanby)
was perfectly in order in reading the contents of a letter,
stating the impression made upon the mind of the writer by
the charge.—( Hear, hear. )
The Earl of WINCHILSEA did not think it fair or just to
any man that such a course should be pursued.
The Marquis of NORMANBY said the Noble Earl was
not in order, and he would now proceed to read the letter of
the Protestant clergyman, whose name he would give, who
was present at the charge, and who, at that time, received the
censure of the Right Rev. Prelate for visiting a national
school.—( Cheering, )
The Earl of WICKLOW said the Noble Marquis was not
bat of order, but he would put it to him whether it would not
be exercising a sound discretion not to pursue this course fur-
ther. —( Hear, hear.)
The Marquis of NORMAN BY said he would now read that
portion of the letter which referred to the personal encounter
between the writer and the Right Reverend Prolate. The

I Noble Marquis then proceeded to read the passage, which was
in substance that the" writer declared he could never forget the
painful feelings he suffered, when, after a residence of a quarter
of a century in that parish (Clashmore) he heard himself thus
()ensured by his bishop for having visited a national school, and
on being told that no Protestant clergyman should do so, even
if it were only for the purpose of seeing the rules. The writer
then went on to say he found he had for ever lost all chance of
preferment, &c.—(Laughter and cheers.) He (the Marquis
of Normanby) heard the Noble Lord opposite cheer; but
he would ask him was that the treatment a clergyman of
thirty Sears' residence in a parish ought to receive at the
hands of his bishop, because he had gone to see the rules in
force at a school established by the Government of his
country ?—(Loud cheers.) The writer went on further to
say that the Right Reverend Prelate added that he would
rather see no school at all in the country than the Na-
tional Schools. —( Continued cheers.) That was the letter,
and the writer of it was the Rev. Mr. Maccassy, rector of
Clashmore.—( Hear, hear.) He would not follow up
this subject, by repeating the expressions used by the Right
Rev. Prelate, which were too coarse for repetition in that
House, and which the Right Rev. Prelate should never have
used.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Marquis then read a pas-
sage from a letter from a Protestant clergyman in Larne,
where there were 12,000 inhabitants, and where the writer
said there was no feeling whatever amongst his Protestant
parishioners against the grant.—( Hear, hear.) He (the
Marquis of Normanby) regretted that this measure had not
been granted whenithe repeal agitation was completely dead
in Ireland ; but even now he hOped to see it carried by a large
majority of their Lordships' House.—(Cheers. )
The Duke of WELLINGTON said that he made no allusion
to agitation or to any meetings held in Dublin. These meet-
ings were got up for the purpose of compelling the Legislature
and Government of the country to adopt the measure of the
repeal of the Union, setting aside altogether the decision of
their Lordships' House on the Bill of exceptions. That was his
notion. Ile said that the Government was strong and the
repeal cause was weak. He did-not say a word on agitation,
because no one could say what the course of agitation would be
from one day to the next. Ile said the repeal cause too—not
the Roman Catholic cause—( A laugh)—that the repeal cause
was weak. He took care to say, that as their Lordships were
strong they should not persecute those who were weak.
The Bishop of CASHEL, in explanation of the:remarks
made by the Marquis of Normanby, said that he would show to
the Noble Lord the letter referred to. It was always painful
to him to receive a number of applications for vacar.t livings,
and no man would ever have a better chance for speaking in a
commendatory manner of himself than in such an application.
The Archbishop of DUBLIN said that he should trouble their
' Lordships as briefly as possible. From the language used
throughout the country it would appear that all those who
were favourable to the grant were set down as indifferent to
the principles of the Protestant faith, and dangerous latitudina-
rians. lie would say, in reference to the course of instruction,
that he had occasion more than once to examine persons who
had beer. students in Maynooth, and who sought employment
in the Protestant Church, having left their own. Also young
men who were expecting situations as tutors after they left
Maynooth ; and he was cisposed to think that the
course of instruction there must be of a very inferior description.
He also believed, from conversing with many Roman Catholics,
that the college was not well regulated as to the course of in-
formation taught in it. He did not find fault with the college
because it taught men to be Roman Catholics, for that was to
be expected.—( Laughter.) With regard to literature, his-
tory, and science, he thought it was susceptible of great im-
provement. By making it a perpetual endowment they were
giving an important check to its being again brought forward
as a battle ground of party. It. appeared that the system of
education adopted there was a shabby one, and he could not
help coming to the conclusion, that it was, to a certain extent,
traceable to the niggardly manner in which the eollege had
been supported. He must say, on behalf of himself and his
own clergy, that they were not to be considered as indifferent
to the Protestant faith because of their refusing to join the out-
cry against the increased grant. He had the highest respect
for many of his Roman Catholic brethren—( Hear
hear)—bat he was not more opposed to them than
he was to many of those Protestants who believed that the
State should impose a religion upon its subjects. If the civil
Government was to decide what the religion of its subjects
should be, the State should make no difference between great
and small errors, but should exclude all sects that disagreed
from the system it adopted. He called upon those who held
that doctrine to follow out their principles and denounce all
endowments unless those for the Established Church. To be
consistent they should do so. He did not however understand
how the grant of 26,0001. could go against a man's conscience
and 9,0001. meet with his approval or acquiescence. If all
that had been said respecting Maynooth were true, he thought
the Government should not tolerate the existence of the Col-
lege at all, nor the priests themselves, who were imbued with
the pernicious doctrines which it was said to inculcate. They
called upon them, the Bishops, on pain of break-
ing their solemn vows, to denounce that grant.
There were different ways of driving out errors
and fulfilling their vows. Was it by secular
violence and by the sword? Sooner than do so he would re-
sign his station and endeavour to earn his bread by the most
menial employment. —( Hear, hear.) He would not resort to
violence. He would endeavour to drive out those who were in
their own Church who taught false and dangerous doctrines.
He had no power over Roman Catholics, but be had over those
of his own communion, and if he found amens" them any who
held the doctrines of one Church, and received the emoluments
of another, those he would drive out.—(" Hear, hear," and
cheers.) By so doing he considered he would best acquit
himself of the obligation of his vows. There was a great dif-
ference also between giving and granting an endowment. The
money was not theirs. It belonged to the nation ; and as long
as there were six millions of persons, whom they might tell in
vain were not a partof the nation—( A laugh)—it was ridiculous
to act in the same manner as if the money had come from the
packets of private individuals. It was a claim on the nation, and as
the Roman Catholics contributed to its funds it was wrong to
deny them such a paltry endowment. He must also protest
against the outcry made against the word expediency.—( Hear,
hear.) He professed himself a votary of expediency.—( A
laugh.) He should like to know what any one had to do in
that House who was net a man of expediency.—(Laughter. )
They had all met there for the public expediency. There was
even a formula of public prayer that was said every evening
for the safety, and honour, and prudence of their Lordship's
deliberations, and if that was not consulting for public expe-
diency, he should like to know what expediency was.—(Cheers.)
Some Noble Lords were inclined to think despondingly of the
measure, because it had been so much decried by the agita-
tors in Ireland. Why, he thought that, so far from that being
any argument against the Bill, it was rather an argument in
favour of it ; for any measure which tended to pacify and restore
tranquillity was sure to be censured by those whose trade was
agitation. An opinion prevailed that the Roman Catholic
population of Ireland was united as one man; but the fact was
that, so long as there was a handful of people to agitate in
that country, so long would there be agitators. The agitators,
however few in number, always called themselves the people.
—( Laughter.) This reminded him of a saying of Mr. Burke's,
who, speaking of a handful of politicians that spoke of them-
selves as the people of England, said they resembled grasshop-
pers in a meadow, which occupying a snug bank, made all the
noise, and seemed the sole occupants of the meadow, whilst the
oxen, the real occupants, ruminated quietly in the shades.
He would not take it upon himself to say which was the proper
mode of governing Ireland—a difficult problem to solve, as a
Right Reverend Prelate ( Daly) had observed on the previous
evening ; but this he would say, that they should not consider
the turbulenee of a few agitators as the voice of the nation,
for those who raised the loudest clamour in Ireland against the
Bill were those who considered every measure bad which had
for its object peace and conciliation —the designs of such men
being to disunite and raise a hostile feeling between England
and Ireland by a perpetual agitation.—(Loud cheers.)
Lord DE ROOS rose amid loud cries for the Bishop of
Exeter. He defended the conduct of the professors of May-
nooth from the aspersions which had been cast upon them and
the students gerei•ally, and concluded by saying that he thought
the present measure one of the most healing, tranquillising, and
conciliatory which could be devised for the advantage of Ireland.
The Bishop of EXETER then rose and said, that he
readily yielded to the call which had been made upon him,
and thought the real question at issue had been much departed
from in the course of the present discussion. The origin of
Maynooth College seemed to have been forgotten, and it would
appear as if it had been founded and supported wholly by the
State. He held in his hand a paper, from which it appeared,
that the college was first established upon sufferance upon the
memorial of certain Roman Catholic prelates, Dr. Troy among
the number, who presented the memorial to Lord Westmore-
land, the then Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland. The memorial
prayed for his Majesty's licence to establish a college wherein
youth might be educated for the Roman Catholic church.
But it must appear that this licence was in the first
instance, to enable Roman Catholics to endow
the College. The Act of Parliament empowered them to
receive donations, but the whole amount of donations re-
ceived by Maynooth College from the Roman Catholics, up to
1814, was 5,0001., and not a penny since then. There was
a charge of miserable parsimony made against the Parliament
towards the Roman Catholic college of Maynooth, which he
considered wholly unfounded. The only miserable parsimony
which he could detect was in the Roman Catholic squire-
archy of Ireland, and it was for those the Noble Earl who
spoke last night (the Earl of St. Germans) had reason to
blush for the state of ruin and degradation to which May-
noeth had been brought. The words of the Act of Parlia-
ment proved that Maynooth was not regarded originally as a
corporation—it was an institution supported originally by
mere chance endowments; and Parliament did not, he re-
peated, originally recognise it in the light of an institu-
tion which had any claims upon the State.—(Hear hear. )
They were told that a visit oriel power was to be exercised,
but what would be the value of visiting, when they had no
right to interfere with the doctrines which were taught at
Maynooth ? Visitors in such a case would be of no value what-
ever.—( Hear.) Again it was said that the reason why the lust'.
tution was net properly supported was the poverty of the people.
This could not be the case. There was no want of wealth among
the Roman Catholics of that country, especially among those
of the higher classes. Wealth was increasing in Ireland, and he
was glad of it, hut it ought to be borne in mind that for the
last twelve years the wealthy Roman Catholics of that country
had contributed from six to seven thousand pounds to an insti-
tution for the propagation of the Roman Catholic faith in
Lyons. If they were satisfied with the character of Maynooth,
it was not necessary for them to go there with their money—
they would not have allowed the state of things, the want of de-
cency, and the absence of proper arrangements for the educa-
tion of the students to have existed. He wanted to know what
good the Bill promised to realise? The great want of Ireland
at the present time was men to teach them the duty they owed
to their God arid their country—to remind them that their
first duty was to pay respect to the laws, to live at peace
with all men, and not only to cultivate peace themselves but
to set the example of peaceable conduct to others.—( Hear,
hear.) Reference had been made to the circumstances of Ireland,
and their Lordships had been told that there was some
excuse for the part the priesthood had taken in the
political 1 roceedings of that country.—( Hear.) He was
willing to make some allowance for those parties; but the re-
bellious and tumultuous proceedings which they countenanced
and defended were such as, by God's blessing, he should never
assist in communicating to the Christian character, least of all
to a Christian minister.—( Hear, hear.) The evil was, that
the character of the priesthood was taken from the character
of the people, and the real origin of it was in the exclusive sys-
tem of education pursued at Maynooth College. He did not
see how it was possible to educate 500 young men in a proper
manner by shutting them up in a monastic institution, making
them perfect serfs during the seven years of their education,
without connexion with the people, or association with the
superior classes of society. They led the lives of recluses,
destitute of all those associations and advantages that tended to
develop the manly character. They were not allowed during
their servitude, at any time, the privilege of walking in the
avenues adjoining the institution—to pass for a single moment
out of sight of their superintendents. And when their slavery
was at an end they passed at once from a state of complete
servility to a state of absolute despotism. From slaves they
at once were transformed into despots—( Hear, hear)—,and went
forth among the people as the representatives of God—vices
genere Deum. In this country the education of
the Catholic clergy took place with the young
members of the nobility and gentry. This was not the
case at Maynooth, and hence the great difference in the cha-
racter of the Catholic clergymen of England compared with
those of Ireland. There was no other institution in Ireland
more productive of evil than Maynooth, and for that reason he
should vote against the motion before their Lordships for the
second reading of the Bill. He was sure the wealthy Roman
Catholics of Ireland must be as desirous of sending their sons.

to be educated along with those intended for the University as
were the rich Roman Catholics of England; and the reason
why they had not done so was, according to his judgment,
because the system of education at Maynooth was so
degrading. The next question was, who should nominate the
students to be educated there ? According to the proposed
measure, the patronage was to be vested in the hands of the
Roman Catholie Bishops. They were to have the appointment
of no less than 500 young men. Would not this be putting a
powerful engine into the hands of the clergy?—a power which,
he contended, should alone be vested in the hands of the
Crown. If this would be considered giving undue power to the
C:own, another course might be taken ; the Crown might ap-
point four times the number to be admitted, and they should
afterwards be examined publicly by the Roman Catholic
Bishops in Dublin. Great benefit might be realised if some-
thing of that kind were adopted ; hut there should be no such
monastic institution as that of Ma%nooth. In his opinion the
amount of the money was scarcely worth a moment's con-
sideration if the system pursued were satisfactory. For his
part, instead of one college he would have three or four col-
leges, somewhat analogous to those proposed in the other
House of Parliament for the education of the Roman
Catholic priesthood. But he would have it a liberal educa-
t. on, in connexion with the young men belonging to
the nobility and gentry, and altogether different from the
monastic and exclusive system pursued at Maynooth. A
Right Rev. Prelate had been reflected on the previous evening,
because he could net name a remedy for the evils that affected

Ireland. Such a proceeding was unfair and unconstitutional.
The Rev. I'relate was not responsible for governing the
country. That duty rested with the Government. The
Ministry had voluntarily undertaken the duty of governing the
country, and it was no part of the duty of Parliament to take
the business of the Executive into its hands.—( Hear, hear. )
It was for the Government to bring forward their measures,
and then for their Lordships to judge of their
value and efficacy. He thought too much of the
wisdom of the Government to consider the present
measure the best that could be introduced by them.
The Noble Duke (the Duke of Manchester) had, in the debate
of last evening, referred to the conferences of the Catholic
priesthood, arid there were proofs amply sufficient to show that
the statements made by the Noble Duke were well founded.
The common law inflicted the punishment of death by burning
those who were guilty of the crime of heresy. He need
only quote the opinions of Dens, for the truth
of this assertion.—( Hear.) If their Lordships would
examine closely into the nature of the studies taught at May-
nooth, they would find that they were not opposed to these
conferences, and at all events, they were such as ought to
make their Lordships shrink from the pestilential stream they
were assisting by this grant to disseminate over Ireland. The
Right Rev. Prelate then preceded to read from Maldonatus,
the favourite commentator of Maynnoth, in order to prove
the pernicious character of the doctrines taught there.
A very respectable clergyman who had been educated at
Maynooth had authorized him (the Bishop of Exeter) to say
that if their Lordships granted the Committee sought for by the
Noble Earl, he should be ready to appear before them, and to
detail the results of his experience there. In an examination
before that House, it was proved that Dr. M'elale, who was
the very impersonation of Maynooth, having been educated
there, having been a professor there, and not leaving it till he
was made Bishop. It was notoriously a fact, that on his visit
to Achill, he had cursed priests who had left their Church and
joined themselves to the Protestant faith. But this was only
the common spirit that actuated them throughout Europe, and
he would instance the protestation addressed by the Roman
Catholic Priests of Belgium, in 1815, to the King, when he
wished to confer civil liberties on all his subjects, without
distinction of sect. This showed at least the spirit by
which they were actuated. and the same spirit was
inculcated by the Catholic teachers of Maynooth.
Baron Richards, at the Castlebar assizes, in the year 1838,
had avowed the bigotry of the Roman Catholic priests, their
sinister influence on the people, and the effects of the perni-
cious teaching at Maynooth, to which a great proportion of the
crime of Ireland was to be traced. But the character of those
doctrines need not be discovered by a reference to an authority
so unprejudiced, yet unconnected; Dr. M‘Hale, in an essay on
the subject of dispensation, had set the tenets there held be-
yond all dispute. The deposing power, as acted upon by Pope
Pius XVII., in 1801, in trying to establish the succession of
Louis XVIII., and acknowledged by the Irish bishops in 1&19,
was equally and as incontestible the doctrine still upheld. The
class-book de penitentia instructed nothing less than perjury in
its most abhorrent and revolting form, and the question, there-
fore was, were the Government ready to endow, with the funds
of the State, and identify with the Constitution a college that
propounded and instructed a system of unqualified perjury?
He, for one, trusted that the House, when put in possession of
such incontrovertible facts, would exclaim " Not-Content " to
the provisions of such a measure.
Lord BROUGHAM could not understand the discrepancy
between the line of arguments adopted by the Right Rev. Pre-
late and the opponents of the Bill, either on the Ministerial
or the cross benches. The two Noble Dukes who had so ve-
hemently protested against the measure, exclaimed in horror,
" Idolatry, superstition, abominable doctrines, everything that
the Minister ought most to discountenance, were to be en-
dowed." Such were their arguments, and to say the least of
them, they were intelligible—they were logical, and calculated
to carry conviction. But the Right Rev. Prelate contended
in a far different strain—" I object to a system that would
endow one institution where the false ultra-montaine doctrines
were propounded; but withdraw those tenets, purge the reli-
gion of such abhorrent views, and I will vote for the endowment
of four colleges for the teaching of the Roman Catholic faith !
What, four colleges, for one of which the Noble Duke had ob-
jected so strenuously. The Right Rev. Prelate had said also
that the State did, in 1794 and 1795, not endow the college,
but gave the Catholic faith a power of voluntary establishing
an institution which, though not endowed, was endowable by
the State. But the fact was that, in 1795, the Act of Geo.
111. was passed, and in all hut the word co-operation, every
trust, even powers for grants of money, and lease of
property was accorded the Institution.—( Hear, hear. )
And as to merely holding of the trusts, it would not be suffi-
cient to make them a corporation, if new powers were not given
to them in their capacity of visitors.—The grand omission in
the Act was that there was no mention of a corporation—that
was all. The words of the preamble of the Bill, that " Whereas
there was a college far the education of Roman Catholics, and
the funds were insufficient, it was desirable to support and
endow that college," &c. There were three Acts passed in
the reign of George 111. —a Prince above all others distin-
guished for his attachment to the Protestant releion—a Prince
who was most religiously opposed to the anti-Protestant doc-
trines of the Remanists. Under whose auspices was the last
Act (the 48th of the King) passed ?—( Hear, hear.) It was
under the auspices of Mr. Percival who succeeded upon Pro-
testant principles—( Ilea , hear)—the Government of Lord
Grey.—( Hear, hear.) It um under his auspices that the
grant was continued, and that in the new Act the word " en-
dowed" was introduced.--( Hear, hear.) He knew as well as
the Noble Earl opposite that the grant was from year to year.
But surely the fact that the grant had been given, year after
year, and in every year for fifty years, was of greater impor-
tance in support of the grant than if it had been given at once
and for ever.—( Hear, hear.) It showed a greater determina-
tion on the part of the Legislature to continue the grant, under
the very name used in each successive Act, than if
it had been made at once a fixed and permanent endowment.
—( Hear, hear.) He placed little value upon the animosities
exhibited at public meetings. He believed that those annual
displays of fanaticism would be happily put an end to by the
Bill before the House.—( Hear, hear.) It was no argument
against this measure that it would go to promulgate the ob-
noxious doctrines taught at Maynooth ; for it was denied by no
opponent of this Bill that lefaynooth, with all its doctrines,
must still be supported..—( Hear, hear.) Was it not better—
as it had well been said by the Noble Duke op-
posite—that if the Roman Catholics of Ireland must
be educated by priests, those priests themselves ought
to be educated as gentlemen.—( Hear, hear.) He would
read an extract from an English traveller, who said that on his
visit to Maynooth he found the condition of the pupils one of
great deprivation. The union workhouses were palaces com-
pared to the College.--( Hear, hear.) Nothing could exceed
the povery and squalidity of the establishment. (The Noble
and Learned Lord read the extract at great length, depicting
the extreme poverty of the pupils, and the filthy state of their
accommodation.) It was absurd to say that doctrines were
taught in the College which rendered the controlling power
of the Crown nugatory.—(Hear, hear.) For in the Chan-
cellorship of Lord Plunkett, that Lord Chancellor did, as visitor,
institute inquiries into the conduct of the pupils; and they,
when examined upon oath, gave evidence which proved that
they had no indoctrination opposed to the obligation of an oath,
and the result of the inquiry was, that the abuses complained
of, and proved, were removed.—( Hear.) He did not wish to
give any pain to Members of that House professing the Roman
Catholic faith, nor to persons professing that faith out of the
House; but he must declare that no opponent of the Bill was
more opposed than he was to the doctrines of the Church of
by
not
like
k eh
tehaed b
owoikt
sh
wahtriple e
rcer orwe
and.
Rome, or more opposed to the power of an hierarchy governed
-(Hlaynooth College. He
ear, hear.) He did
‘
did not say that books were not to be read because he, or their
Lordships, did not like them.—(A laugh.) He then went
through a catalogue of books of various doctors, amongst
whom he mentioned Thomas Aquinas, whose doctrines
he did not approve, but whose works, be thought, might well be
no doubthey Contain
thatti the booksthse
o
read with advantage. He differed from the Noble Lord oppo-
site in his views • for it was quite a mistake to suppose he could
mentionedbe
wereth'eisne views.
existence,
There
bad doctrines that had been mentioned. But o
beside the question now before their Lordships,.athinsdan d
if it were
was totally
not so, he would be ready to vote for the es()mmittee • He had
heard a great deal about Maldonatus and heresy, and all that;
but some of those arguments went to prove that these
bad doctrines were taught in Maynooth. No doubt
and wasth a tt
the dogmas taught in Maynooth were the Ro-
manist dogmas ; but what other could be taught
there? Surely they were not to invent new books—if so, then,
they were to have their own books ; but even so, the fact
would be found that all those bad and dreadful doctrines would
shrink into a page or two.—( Hear, hear.) And now let him
remind their Lordships that the Church of Rome was not the
only church that had fallen into error. He much feared that
melancholy indeed was the condition of the ecclesiastical dis-
cipline of another church. He was not now alluding to the
spiritual or ecclesiastical power of that church. That church
to which he alluded had exercised a great secular power, not-
withstanding all that had been said about the Pope, and the
Councils, and the priests, though he should certainly say that
the former had never carried it so far as the latter.—
( Hear, hear.) In modern times that church had been
as much distinguished for its tolerance as its piety, and this
he had said of it fifteen years ago ; but he should peremptorily
deny, that it was always as tolerant as it was now ; and if he
took the trouble he could find writers amongst the old fathers,
who furnished as strong illustrations against the intolerance of
that Church, as any that had been adduced against the
Romish Church. These things were not confined to the
Episcopalian Church. The Dissenters and Wesleyan Me-
thelists were the loudest and most incessant in their outcry
against it. Well might the bench of bishopiesay, that these
religionists had no right to look for an extension of
civil and religious liberty for themselves, since they
had been so violent in their opposition when con-
cessions were made to Roman Catholics. They were
the last, too, who should charge other religionists with holdng
persecuting doctrines, for, if he selected a writer who of all
others la:d down the doctrine of extirpation with more ela-
borateness—who even went so far as to say that the body of the
heretic should even be burnt—who taught not merely the right
o the body to save the soul—he should
n Calvin.--(Loud cheers.) Among
butsay
thatthe dutythat o
man f destroying
was
J
the various devices which that man resorted to for the purpose
of carrying into effect his diabolical doctrines was the practice
of letter-opening.—(Loud laughter.) The Noble Lord pro-
ceeded to state an instance of this man's cruelty in the case
of a Spanish physican. He got him to come to
Geneva, where, in consequence of his religious opinions,
he was denounced, condemned, and burnt to death forty-eight
hours after, without even the common forms of justice, and in
mockery of every feeling that actuates humanity. The Noble
Lord then went on to adduce another instance of the most
intolerant persecution on the part of the Presbyterians and
Calvinists, from an American author, Mr. Gerard Spottis-
woode, who described the sufferings of an individual whose
only crime was worshipping in the Common Prayer Book of
the Church of England. He would now leave this part of
the subject, and he would ask who would think the worse of
Glasgow, Edinburgh, Hackney, or any other college where
Dissenters were taught ?—who would ever think the worse of
them because there might be found among their dusty shelves
a copy of the works of the persecutor and murderer
of Geneva—the. author of the most elaborate treatise on
persecution that the world has ever seen—without any

attempt even to efface the page, palliate its cruelties, or apply
rn antidote to the poison which it administered. Who, he
would ask, would think of involving all the students and pro
fessors of those colleges, and the system of instruction taught
there, in the doctrines which were promulgated by Calvin?
It would be senseless and utterly monstrous to do so. Thomas
Aquinas never could be compared, for a moment, to that vio-
lent and restless exterminator. Let him say one word of King
William, who ought to be revered in this country and Ireland,
not merely because he founded civil liberty, but because he
saves them from Popery. His name might be made a watch-
word by fanatics, but it was not in that sense he used it, and he
heartily agreed with the Somersets and the Godolphins of his
day, that had their Lordships then lived they would have passed
the penal code. Last of all, he was told that Sou cannot con-
scientiously give money for the propagation of error. In the
first place, the money would be given, whether or no. Secondly,
the money partly belonged to Catholics. Thirdly, Maynocth
was only one of a number of establishments recognised and en-
dowed by the State. In Canada the Roman Catholi
Church was established by this country. The Righ
Reverend Prelate was wrong in stating that there was
any provision in the treaty of Paris for endowing
the Roman Catholic faith—nothing was guaranteed in
that treaty but toleration. Constant grants were made by
the Legislature for the sustainment of the Catholic establish-
ments in the colonies, and at Malta even the regular clergy
were paid by the State. In Malta the Roman Catholic Church
was of the most rigorous and exclusive character, and yet it
was supported by the Government, while no cry, voice, or
whisper, had been raised against it. Before sitting down he
would say a word respecting the mode in which the grant had
been met. His Right Hon. Friend in the other House, .at the
head of her Majesty's Government, had been reflected on for
the course he had pursued on the present measure. It was
said that one reason of introducing the measure was the great
alarm expressed respecting the relations of this country with
America. Another reason given was, that without some step
of this kind agitation could not be put down. He (Lord
Brougham) denied, as broadly and distinctly as his wards
would enable him to do, that any such appre-
hension had influenced his Right Hon. Friend in bringing
forward that measure. His Right Hon. Friend might have
referred to the relation of this country with foreign countries,
and the difficulties connected with those relations, but he
(Lord Brougham) denied that any such plea had been advanced
as a reason for introducing the present measure, and for this
reason, that it was a pure anachronism. For it would be re-
collected that last year, before any difference with America was
dreamt of, his Right Hon. Friend, in answer to Mr. Wyse,
distinctly announced his plan with regard to Maynooth, and
also his views with respect to academical educatidn. The al-
leging that the measure was introduced to still agitation, was
equally unfounded. He had been represented to say that agi-
tation could not be put down by force, and he (Lord Brougham)
said so too, for he held that it was impossible to put down agi-
tation by such means, until it broke out into violence or insur-
rection. But agitation in Ireland had verged upon that ex-
treme, and his Right Honourable Friend had used
force, when force became necessary, and that force
had been triumphantly successful.—( Cries of " Hear, hear.")
Agitation at all times was an evil, especially in thickly popu-
lated countries, and if the measure now introduced was calcu-
lated to quiet and improve that country, in this respect it was
entitled to their support. He was told that the Right Rev.
Prelate (the Bishop of Exeter) had made out a case against the
grant to Maynnoth, and Bishop Higgins had been cited to that
effect. That Right Rev. Prelate had said, a few years ago,
in a manifesto respecting the repeal movement, that he owed
nothing to the aristocracy of Parliament but contempt, a few
years before, on the occasion of the repeal of the Penal Code.
How such a change had taken place in so short a period, he
could not conceive, or how unbounded respect could be con-
verted into unqualified scorn; however, his scorn and his re-
spect he valued in the same degree. That Right Reverend
agitator had said—" Why shoukl Ireland be thankful for
17,0001. a year, it was but three farthings a week !" Such
argumentation he (Lord Brougham) had never be-
fore heard.—( Hear, hear.) Why, if 300,000/. a year had
been accorded upon such a principle, the grant
might be said to be only fiv ?pence a head, or less than a half-
farthing a week.—(Laughter.) But Dr. Higgins no more
represented the population of Ireland than Mr. Wilkes and Mr.
Alderman Sawbridge when issuing their mandates from the
London Tavern, and commencing " We, the people of Eng-
land," embodied or represented the population of this country.
—(Laughter.) He felt gratified, however, that the Govern-
ment, conscious of its own integrity, and regardless of the cla-
mour of party, had fearlessly maintained its course, believing,
as he did, that the popularity which followed a. brave aet was
much more honourable than that sought after by spurious pre-
tensions, and that if they persisted in those brave acts they
would deserve, as they would obtain, that enduring and invalu-
able applause.—(Cheers.)
Lord CL A NCARTY, amidst great confusion, and conflict-
ing cries of " Adjourn," "Go on," " Question, question,"
moved the adjournment of the debate.
The Bishop of ST. DAVID'S was anxious though at that
late hour to address—(here the Rev. Prelate was interrupted
with reiterated cries of " Adjourn, adjourn," " Question,
question," in the midst of which—

Lord CLANCARTY protested against the irregular course
adopted by the Right Rev. Prelate. The question of adjourn-
ment had been raised, and he for one would persist in it.
The Bishop of St. DAVID'S—I wish to give your Lordships,
in as succinct and short an explanation as possible, the reasons
for my vote on the present occason.
Lord CLANCARTY (rising amid great sensation, and loud
cries of " Order, order,")—l, my Lords, have moved the ad-
journment of this debate, because I consider it my duty to
address a few words before the discussion terminates. Six
addresses have been presented this night in favour of the Bill,
while only two Members have spoken in favour of the amend-
ment of the Noble Earl near me (Lord Roden), and I have
been anxiously waiting an opportunity to state my views upon
it. Hitherto I have been unable to address your Lordships, and
therefore it was that I secured for myself the tacit right of
commencing the discussion to-morrow, by moving the adjourn-
ment of the debate.—( Loud cries of " de on.")
The Duke of WELLINGTON—My Lords, I think it will
be more consistent with the convenience of this House that
the debate be adjourned till to-morrow.
The greatest confusion here arose, Members not understand-
ing whether the Noble Duke intended this day, Wednesday
(it being now one o'clock), or Thursday. Cries of " To-
day," " To-morrow," " Thursday," proceeded from all parts
of the House, in the midst of which

The LORD CHANCELLOR contrived to make himself
heard, announcing that the House stood adjourned to Five
o'clock this day ( Wednesday).
Their Lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, Juue 3.
SIR HENRY POTTINGER.
Mr. HUME (in continuation from our Third Edition)
said—He had known Sir Henry Pottinger for many
years, both in his private and public capacity, and he could
at.sure the House that his conduct would bear the fullest investi-
gation. While he was anxious to protect the public purse from
any improper expenditure, he would say that withholding from
officers in her Majesty's service that remuneration to which
they were justly entitled did great injury to the service. The
Hen. Gentleman then referred to Parliamentary returns, and
to other documents, to show that pensions had been granted to
those who had filled diplomatic offices. Sir Henry Pottinger
was sent to China, not as an ambassador, for this country
was not at that tirneon friendly terms with the celestial empire,
but to negotiate for the restoration of peace, and he performed
the important duties which devolved upon him more success-
fully than others whe had been sent out with a
similar object in view. No one had been able
to accomplish so much, and those services were
both ' recognised by the country and the Government.
The Gallant Officer's business was to effect a treaty with
the Chinese authorities, and he was enabled to fulfil
his mission almost to the direct letter of the law.
Everything pointed out to him was accomplished by
the influence he gained over the Government of China. It
was the opinion of those who were in China at the time that
no other individual could have obtained the confidence of the
Chinese authorities as Sir Henry Pottinger did. Was it no-
thing to think that he was the first man who had ever been
able to complete a commercial treaty with China? Surely
then he was entitled to hope he had made out a sufficient case
for calling upon the House to support his motion. There were
many men distinguished, but because he was a man of certain
opinions they refused him honours and votes, or even a pecu-
niary reward. They had already drawn a line of distinction
between civil and military officers—should they not now break
through that rule and grant a reward which was deserved ?
He thought he had made out a fair claim to the House, and he
begged to conclude by submitting the motion which he had
already read.
Lord SANDON seconded the motion, and said he would
shortly describe what there was in the services of the gentle-
man, whose conduct
had been under discussion in that House,
to warrant Parliament in conferring extraordinary rewards
upon him. He would briefly allude to the manifold meritorious
services of the Gallant Gentleman, which he had rendered
under peculiar circumstances, and at great pecuniary sacrifices
and loss of rtealth. He had finished a war in China, under
circumstances of great pain to himself, and under stipulations
of so important a nature as would drown the recollection of the
cause of its commencement in acclamations to him who bad
effected so glorious a termination. He had preserved the
honour and character of his country in a manner that no other
man was capable of performing. He could not think that
such services should be met with only a trifling pecuniary re-
compence.—( Hear.) For services neither precisely civil nor
military, which opened to the world a free traffic with the
most industrious people in the world, it was not sufficient to
award a yearly comparatively trifling sum.—( Hear, hear. )
With regard to services of another nature he would
not rely simply on a priori circumstances, he
would look to the opinion of the whole mercantile world as to
the growing intercourse arising from the treaty with China,
effected by the Gallant Gentleman. He would also look to the
great moral results arising from these negotiations, which, no
doubt, would lead to the cultivation of Christianity among the
Chinese people. He could not think that the Government,
under these circumstances, would refuse to give him an ample
recompence for the dangers he had undergone, and the difficul-
ties he had overcome, and the pecuniary sacrifices he had made
in the public service, in effecting so much good. And he
would call upon Hon. Gentlemen connected with the Crown,
to come forward more freely in reward of services so ines-
timable.
The question was then put from the chair.
Sir J. HOBHOUSE did not anticipate .any objection to the
measure. He considered that the present was a special case,
and it would be almost impossible for any individual to render
in a similar manner such highly meritorious and useful services
as had been rendered by Sir Henry Pottinger— (Hear)—and it
was unlikely that any future occasion would arrive for which
the reward for services, now about to be awarded, would con-
stitute a precedent. On the return of Sir Henry Pottinger,
in ill health, to the seat of war in the East, he had made two
stipulations only with the Administration—one was, that he
should not have any colleague to act with him in his high capa-
city, so that the responsibility might be left to himself ; and the
other was, that the directions given him by the Government
should be private, and no stipulation whatever was made for
the reward of the services he should render. Sir H. Pottinger
was willing to leave the reward for those services entirely in
the hands of the Government. Lord Aberdeen, at a public
meeting, in describing the merits of the Gallant Officer, had
said, so great was the confidence of the Government in him,
that he had been left in China to act almost entirely on his
own discretion. There was no hyperbole in saying that the
distinguished services and high honours of Sir Henry Pottinger
precluded him from accepting a subordinate presidency as a
commensurate reward. He was entitled to far higher re-
wards. He would say that the present income of the Gallant
Officer was so ill-proportioned to his high station, that he
could not live in England in I manner becoming his condition,
and was precluded from entering that society to which
he would be so great an ornament.—( Hear, hear.)
The Hon Baronet then read a list of the different towns in the
United Kingdom and in the colonies, which had presented
votes of thanks to Sir H. Pottinger, for his services in China
In nine hours the names of 14,000 working men, in Man-
chester, were affixed to an address expressive of their admiration
of the great good he had conferred on them by re-instating the
trade between China and this country. He was elected a
member of a number of corporate bodies, and the City authori-
ties presented him with the freedom of the City of London and
' a gold box at an entertainment at Guildhall. Lord Aberdeen
had stated, in speeches in relation to the affairs of China, that
be had for
.three years been in constant communication with
Sir H. Pottinger, and that it was right to declare that his con-
duct in China gave himjust claims on his country—that as
difficulties arose he was able to overcome them by
the firmness and energy which he displayed.—( Hear',
hear.) As to the immediate benefits which he had

conferred on his country, the Government were more
competent to speak than he was. The Lord Provost of Glas-
gow, at a t anquet given to Sir Henry Pottinger in that city,
said that the manufacturers of Glasgow were deeply indebted
to him, for increasing their intercourse with China, and that
though they could not thank him in fine language, they could
thank him with the sincerity and cordiality of British mer-
chan.s.—( Hear, hear.) Every community which carried on
a trade with China might say the same with equal justice.
Others then, having done so, he hoped the House of Com-
mons would do the same, and trusted that the Right Hon.
Baronet at the head of the Government would not think it in-
compatible with his duty, as the guardian of the public purse,
even though it might be a little against precedent, to give Sir
Henry Pottinger some reward for the valuable services he had
rendered to his country.—( Hear, hear. )
Sir RO3ERT PEEL said, the speech of the Right Hon.
Gentleman who had just sat down was, at any rate, a conclusive
answer to a great part of the speech of the Hon. Gentleman by
whom the motion was brought forward. It might be inferred
from the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir J. C.
flobhous?,), who made many unjust observations that there
was a disposition on the part of her Majesty's Government to
underrate the services of Sir Henry Pottinger. No occasion
had ever offered itself in that House in which ho had
not cordially done him justice —( Hear, hear.) He did cer-
tainly state, as a reason for not including Sir H. Pottinger in
the vote of thanks to Sir William Parker—and he said it was
with regret—that the occasions were so rare, and the services
which rendered such a mark of public approval necessary so great,
that a vote of thanks was not proposed, rather on account of
the danger of establishing a precedent than from any desire to
underrate the services of that distinguished man. He (Sir
R. Peel) was prepared to repeat in that House all he said of
Sir Henry Pottinger. Having no personal acquaintance with
him, but well knowing his name and his character, he should
have as unbounded confidence from the Government as from
their predecessors. The Right Hon. Gentleman said it was
unfair to give a distinguished officer 6,000/. per annum after
long services, and to grant a similar sum to Sir Henry Davis.
But that was because a certain salary appertained to a certain
office.

Mr. HUME was understood to say that he did not draw that
comparison.
Sir ROBERT PEEL said he understood the Honourable
Gentleman to say that Sir Henry Davis was not so
well entitled to that pension as Sir Henry Pottinger.
Sir H. Pottinger had shown the utmost discretion, and he gave
him the greatest thanks for the kindness with which he had
treated the Chinese, and for the firmness and decision by
which he had brought about the treaty between this country
and China, Ix he (Sir R. Peel) knew the difficult position in
which he was placed.—( Hear, hear.) In one respect, Sir H.
Pottinger could say that justice had not been done to him. He,
took upon himself the responsibility of opening the trade with
China to all nations, as well as to England. No doubt
he was desirous to form a treaty with other countries, hut
the first instruction which his Noble Friend at the head of the
Foreign Department (Lord Aberdeen) transmitted to him in
1841 was this :—" Secure and well regulate trade with China,
and constantly hear in mind, that we seek for no exclusive ad-
vantages, and demand nothing that shall not be enjoyed by the
subjects of all other countries. " ( Hear, hear.) Those were
instructions which were sent to Sir H. Pottinger by his Noble
Friend before the signature of the treaty ; and, therefore, let
it be said for the credit, not only of Sir H. Pottinger, and of
the two great parties in this country who had administered the
affairs of Government for the last four years, since the diffe-
rences with China commenced, but for the credit of the whole
country, that no wish was further from their in-
tentions than to secure in their intercourse with
China peculiar and exclusive rights.—( Hear.) Let it be
known to Europe and to the world that there was no man in
this country who wished to secure narrow and paltry advan-
tages to which the whole world should not be equally entitled.
—( Hear, hear.) Any one would infer from the words of the
Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Hume) that they had withheld from
Sir 11. Pottinger some reward which it was in the power of
the Government to confer upon him, and the Right Hon.
Baronet (Sir J. C. Hobhouse) said that they had encumbered
him with laurels. He ( Sir R. Peel) did not say that he had
been created a baronet for his services in China, but for long
services to the country in sarious ways. He did say that they had
conferred upon him the highest honorary distinction next to the
garter—a distinction which had been conferred on many great and
brave men—a Grand Cross of the Bath. That honour was
conferred upon him by the approval of a gracious Sovereign.
—( Hear, hear.) Did not the Hon. Member consider that a
distinction, unless it was accompaniel by money ? He (Sir
R. Peel) believed that Sir H. Pottinger was proud of that
honour, not because it was unaccompanied by money, but be-
cause it was a mark of the approval of his Sovereign. He
thought, therefore, that he had shown that the statement of
the Hon. Member that there must be some reason why Sir H.
Pottinger remained unnoticed, was an unjust insinuation—that
there was no foundation for it. There was no honorary distinc-
tion which the Crown had not conferred on Sir H. Pottinger,
and he could not say, so far as the Crown was concerned, that
he had been unfairly dealt with. Then they came to the pe •
cuniary consideration—that the Crown having some power to
grant a pension had not exercised it. He did not hesitate to
say, that if the Crown had been free to grant a pension, the ,
Government would have at once advised the Crown to grant
it—( Heai, hear)—but in the case of Sir Henry Pottinger the
Crown had not the power. What then became of these invi-
dious distinctions ?—( Hear, hear.) The last Government had
the power to confer a pension upon him, but the present Go-
vernment could not legally exercise it. You say, continued the
Right Hon. Baronet, that the Crown is niggardly. Who im-
posed that restriction ? Why, the House of Commons and the
Right Hon. Gentleman.—(" Hear," from Mr. Hume.) The
Crown could not grant a pension to any one, whatever service
he had seen, on account of diplomacy, except he bad been in
the service for fifteen years, and unless in actual service for ten
years. And therefore the Crown had not had the power to
grant a pension to Sir Henry Pottinger. It was admitted by
the House of Commons that there were claims upon the gene-
rosity of the Crown for various distinguished services performed
for the public good. Pensions might be granted for personal
service performed for the Sovereign, and pensions might also
be granted as a reward for the performance of public services,
or for important discoveries in science, literature, and the arts;
and to provide for all these pensions, the House of Commons
only gave the Crown 1,200/. per annum.—(Hear, hear.) It
did not, however, imply any reproach upon the Ministry, be.
cause they had not asked the House of Commons to grant a
specific pension for this distinguished officer ; for, had they
done so, it would have been establishing a somewhat dangerous
precedent. But such a step on the part of Government would
have been attended with great inconvenience, for scarcely
a week pissed but there were claims brought before him,
%hie'', he thought, speaking comparatively, were as just and
legitimate as the claim made by the lion. Member opposite;
and how could they he provided for out of 1,200/. a year 2
( Hear.) He would take the case, for instance, of the late Sir
William Nott.—(Cheers. ) Look at the distinguished ser-
vices of that lamented and gallant officer—(Hear)--and
see how easy, how quiet, how equitable, would be the
claim of any Hon. Member to the consideration of Parliament,
were he to make an appeal to that House, on behalf of the
family of that distinguished and gallant officer.—(Cheers.)
What a strong case could be made out in such an instance as
this. He returned home, after exhibiting abroad a constancy
and valour in behalf of his Sovereign and country which en-
titled him to the public approbation. He came home broken
in health, unable to receive that approbation, while others re-
ceived the highest rewards which the throne and the country
could bestow upon them. But Sir William Nott's health pre-
vented him not only from enjoying the merit he deserved, and
the admiration of his fellow-countrymen, but debarred him of
the opportunity of being presented to his Sovereign, and re-
ceiving her public thanks.—(Hear, hear.) Again, take the
case of men of science. How many there were who had strong,
claims upon the generosity of the Crown, for the useful dis-
coveries they had made in the sciences, the arts, er literature,
whose claims might be urged upon the House with as much
force as those of Sir Henry Pottinger.—(Hear, hear.) Why,
he was applied to the other day for relief by the daughter of a
distinguished public professor, lately deceased, and if they were
to establish a precedent, would not Government run the risk
of constantly having these and similar cases pressed upon them
by the House? He would not go so tar as to say that these pro-
fessors were as distinguished as the gallant officer, who was the
subject of this discussion, but those: distinguished individuals
had sacrificed the interests and welfare of their families for the
public good, and although their claims were not quite so strong
as those made out by the Honourable Member, they were
nevertheless precisely the same in principle.—( Hear, hear. )
But, considering the general feeling of the House of Commons
on this subjeet, he was not disposed to interpose his opposition
between the generosity of the Crown and Sir Henry Pottin-
ger.—( Cheers. ) The motion did not imply the slightest re-
proach upon her Majesty's Ministers, because they had per-
formed a painful public duty in opposition to their
own personal wishes and inclinations. Nevertheless, he should
be sorry, now that the matter had been brought forward, that
there should be any division upon a subject of this kind, and he
should certainly not oppose the motion.—(Great cheering. )
In compliance with the wish of the House of Commons, and
contrary to his strict public duty, he should take upon himself
the part of advising her Majesty to make some provision for
this distinguished officer.—( Renewed cheering.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL was rejoiced to hear the closing de-
claration of the Right Hon. Baronet, and he could not help
saying one word upon this subject, after what had fallen from
the Right Hon. Baronet. He wished to express his own feel-
ings upon this subject, and to state that he thought her Ma-
jesty's Government had always shown a disposition to reward
merit whenever they could consistently do so.--(Cries
of " Hear, hear.") And let not the -Right Honourable
Baronet suppose the House had the slightest disposition
to throw blame upon the Government for the course they had
hitherto adopted in the case of Sir Henry Pottinger.—( Hear. )
He thought, with regard to this case, the House of Commons
was in some degree called upon to express its opinion, because
the Right Hon. Baronet had truly stated that the House of
Commons had placed limits upon the power of the Crown to
grant rewards for diplomatic services. Government had been
perfectly consistent in acting up to the general rule, but the
case before them was an extraordinary one, and justified an ex-
ception to the rule.—( Hear, hear.) After what had fallen from
his Hon. Friend the Member for Montrose it was impossible
for him to say anything more forcibly in favour of the distin-
guished services of Sir Henry Pottinger. He agreed with the
Right Hon. Baronet that they ought not to establish any
fixed precedent for their guidance, but, considering the par-
ticular circumstances of this case, he did think it formed a case
of itself, and the exception ought to be made in its favour.
Lord PALMERSTON could not allow this discussion to
close without expressing his sincere satisfaction in the con-
cluding declaration of the Right Hon. Baronet. He must say
he thought the decision which the Government had come to
with regard to the motion of his Hon. Friend, was as honour-
ableie to themselves, as its result was flattering to the diguished individual who was the subject of it. Het quite
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ward given at the suggestion of the Commons of England.—
(Hear, hear.) Government might rest assured they incurred
no risk by establishing this precedent, because the case
stood upon peculiar and exceptional grounds.—( Hear, hear.)
He trusted that he (Sir H. Pottinger) might long continue in
that state which would enable him to perform other services to
the country. Every relation which it was his duty to fill he
did accomplish • and considering the people he had to deal
with, and the distance he was from the Government, he could
not acquit himself in a manner more deserving of the approba-
tion of the Crown. The instructions of Lord Aberdeen in
1841 certainly justified Sir Henry Pottinger in inserting the
article alluded to in the treaty ; and it was one of the acts
which showed his high idea of the responsibility which he was
under. There wes no man living more ready to acknowledge
the services of those to wham the Right Hon. Baronet oppo-
site alluded to than Sir Henry Pottinger himself. The suc-
cessful result which took place in China was not owing to Sir
Wm Parker, but to the conduct of those who preceded him.
It would be honourable to the House of Commons, to the Hon.
Member who made this motion, and would give the greatest
satisfaction to the country at large if the Government agreed
to this vote.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. JOHN ABEL SMITH supported the vote, and was of
opinion that the success of the motion would be the more ho-
nourable to Sir H. Pottinger, because he was neither directly
or indirectly connected with it.
Mr. ROSS would mention one circumstance where Sir H.
Pottinger had risked his own character, and the funds which
were at his disposal, contrary to his instructions, by advancing
money to the Hong-Kong merchants, because he felt himself
bound to pay it in support of the dignity of the Crown. He
mention b
mentioned the circumstance, in order to show the claim he bad