The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-09 00:00:00

1 Lord EBRINGTON said he believed that the princi-
ple advocated by the Hon. Member oppo-ite was one
which that lion. Member believed woold -be one of
public utility ; but be (Lard Ebringtony had ht and
other speeches upon the . proposition. 'which to him
appeared to contain many unworthy and noxious preju-
(bees, and. into which had been thrown a set of °We-
tiens to public improvement that would impede and
delay measures necessary fer the better gulation of
the morals and decency of the community. He did
think, that the reasons assigned by the Right lion.
Baronet opp: site for his opposition to the measure were
not borne out by the facts ; and even his facts had not
been borne out by the statements of those who were
better qualified, from their information upon the sub •
ject, to speak upon it; and nothing but the speech he
(Lord Ebrington) had heard from the Right Hon. Ba-
ronet would have induced him to address the House on
the proposition. When the Right Hon. Baronet had
said, that the object of foreign countries in their inter-
ments was to accelerate decomposi ion by artificial
means, he appeared to haVe forgotten or not to have read
what had been written on the subject by men very con-
versant will, it. He (Lord Ebrington) held in his hand
the report of Dr. Reid, in which it was stated that at
Frankfort, arid at-Munich, and many other places on the
Continent, not more than one body .was permitted to be
interred in one grave, in order that the process of de-
composition might go on regularly; but the passage did
not contain one word about " artificial means," but
quicklime had in some instances been used, though it
hed not been practised generally. Any ther instance
mentioned by the Right Hon. Baronet as the practice of
interments in foreign countries was rather unfortunate
for him, nr melee that those who lived in the vicinity of
St. Margaret's Church had net found any noxious or
offensive exhalations coming from that churchyard.
But what did Dr. Reid report? Why, that the air in
the vicinity of St. Margaret's Church was very tinwhole-
s,ane and injurious, not only in the morning and the
night time, but also during the day, and that offensive
exhalations had been frequently observe I by many per-
sons. Surely, then, when such a statement as this comes
from such an authority as Dr. Reid, it way rather too
much for the Right Hon. Baronet to say that the vicinity
of St. Margaret's was a healthy locality. And, again,
as to the statement of the Right lion. Baronet that those
who resided in houses surrounding churchyards, in
crowded and populous localities, were not injured by
noxious exhalations, he was again contradicted by the
same report ; but he would not trespass longer on the time
of the House by reading further extracts from it.
Tie (Lord Ebrington) was fully aware that the Right
Hon. Baronet had very many, and perhaps much more,
important matters to attend to, and that he might not
have given this question all the attention that ethers
seemed to think it demanded. If he had he would have
found that this was one of as great importance to The
public as any now under his consideration, for nothing
could exceed the effect upon the health of the people of
interments in churchyards situated in populous localities
and large cities. Those clients were felt in a sanatory,
in a moral, and in a religious point of view. And he
had no doubt but that so long as such interments were
continued the localities would not be freed from the dis-
tressing and disgusting exhibitions they had heard of.—
(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet had suggested
a remedy, it was true, but he had forgotten that that
applied only to rich people, and the poor could not avail
themselves of it. On the whole, then, he should say he
would be very glad if the Hon. Member opposite would
modify his motion, but even as it stood he would support
it.—(tiear, hear.)
Mr. HAWES said that he differed from his Noble
Friend, for it did appear to him that great difficulty lay
in the way of legislating upon this subject ; and that
fact had been proved when a Bill Was introduced upon
a former occasion, when the opposition to it was so great
by those who possessed private property in the places
proposed to be affected, that the Bill was abandoned.
If the proposition of the Hon. Member opposite was to
be carried, the Dissenters would give it their most deter-
mined opposition, for that body had upon a former
occasion recorded their opinions in reference to it in a
resolution which he found in Chadwick's report. The
Hon. Member bad stated that he was willing to protect
vested rights, but he (Mr. Hawes) would ask what
means had the Hon. Member of ascertaining the extent
of those rights?—(Hear,hear.) Reference had been made
by an Hon. Member near him to the practice of foreign
countries in this respect, but he would ask wads the
House prepared to adopt similar measures for this coun-
try. In those foreign countries the burial of the dead
was a regulation of police which it would be impossible
to bring into practice here, because it would involve the
formation of a peculiar tariff; a scale of charges, and the
establishment of a staff of officers of various sorts, and
all this would entail upon the country a vast increase of
expense. The Honourable Member for Montrose,
in his observations upon this question, had forgotten to
say one word in regard to vested rights; hut as he (Mr.
Hawes) had already occupied the House longer than he
intended, he would not take up its time further than to
say that the difficulties in the way of legislating upon this
subject were so great and insuperable that he should
vote against the motion of the Hon. Member.
Mr. BORTHWICK said that this was a question
which required the most laborious attention; in fact, he
conceived, that too much attention could not be paid to
it. lie did hope that his Hon. Friend would modify his
resolution, when he considered well the form in which
he had placed it before the House. As to the practices
in Oriental countries and the South of Europe, in regard
to interment, he begged to remind the House that those
differences arose, not only from the differences of cli-
mate, but from the differences of the religious creeds of
those countries. lie would recommend his Hon.Ftirnd
to modify his resolution in such a way as to induce the
House to adopt it.
The Earl of LINCOLN said the lion. Member for
Lambeth (Mr. Hawes) had so candidly and so very ably
stated the difficulties which attached to any legislation
upon this very important subject, that he would not have
risen to address the House at that period of the debate
if' it had not been that the Noble Lord the Member for
Plymouth (Lord Ebrington) had so strangely mis-
represented, and therefore misunderstoodl, the observa-
tions of his Right Hon. Friend the Secretary of State
for the Home Department. The Noble Lord had charged
the Right Hon. Baronet with endeavouring to revive
and establish old, vulgar, and almost exploded prejudices
on this subject, and of throwing his weight into the scale
of private interest. His Right Hon. Friend, he was
sure, in the statement which he had made, had done
nothing more than endeavour to impress on the
House the extreme importance of not exaggerating
the evils which they were called upon to remedy,
at the same time impressing on the House
the difficulties which attached to a remedy for those
evils. He (Lord Lincoln) thought that was a sufficient
answer on the part of his Right Hon. Friend, when he
was charged with throwin his weight into the scale of
private interests. His Rieht lion. Friend had told the
House that he had himself endeavoured to apply a gre-
medy to some of the evils complained of. He stated
that he had instituted proceedings against some of those
parties who had privatep interests in burial-grounds, and
to be
his Right Hon. Friend then stated that it would be diffi-
cult to introduce an lislative measure on the subject,
such as would be likely
adopted by Parliament.
He (Lord Lincoln) would wish to impress on the House
that this was not a mere question of vested interests, but
it was one especially involving the interests of those very
parties for whom the Hon. Member for Weymouth and
the Hon. Member for Bolton in the course of their ad-
dresses had endeavoured to impress on the House the
propriety of agreeing to this measure—he meant the
poor. He considered that the poor man was more mate-
rially interested in this matter than the rich, and it was
on account of the interests of the poor that they ought to
hesitate before they adopted a resolution such as
that which his Hon. Friend had proposed for restraining for
ever and entirely all interments in all the towns throughout
the kingdom. Let the House consider how such legislation
as this would affect the pecuoiary interest
bet polre. _ lot
might be of minor importance to the rich tocompe I d t.
Look
must entail on the poor an enormous additionnadl expennt e.
Mahon)
at this metropolis, where, as his Noble F
• Friend
to be founnd)
inter their relations at a distance from their residences, but it
of Giles', to Would they compel the poor inhabitant
to a cemetery
had truly said, the principal difficulties
St.
ac-
company the dead body of his relation
the House beyondconeder
Hampstead, half-way to Harrow?
a heavy.e charge
wouldbu.bte almost impossi-
bilitybinotonly f theits
beingp e pecuniary n
effectedi ary expense-
i b eotef se,t
for coach hire, which could not affect the rich, but which the
poor could never bear. This difficulty was felt most strongly
by the very individual who had made his report to the Home-
office, which had been so much dwelt upon that
evening—he meant Mr. Chadwick. How did he pro.
meoainttpelraisnhoeduldofbe? leftltViolPolicine
or artisan who would not be
would look upon this mode of burying
the poor-rate, whereby he would
tfPoloireseL
ammt nabnent
her reinneasdl
Inlyu
edrytdi: eataoetvti
therefore,bl by the
wou
would
rest Honourableupo upon
thAel epmoboer
rreagteusl,atainondse.serTyh•;sooprlann3,an
thee pwo.o.:F
ew_ere very materially coll-
et' d. that their bones should
will-
inghis
rteolalotiseveausdaayr'selwieofrkfr,om
be placed in the position of a pauper.
mer.istre as this. He did not wish
He (Lord Lincoln)
bnt thought or
numeg
idhntgi
nit
ied wst the
h question.feelings
those 00
fTf
their
eir relatives, and therefore they
the. details of any future mea-
sure,uu_tect, he merely wished to
impress on the House the I les which attended it ; and
twoulddeprecate be a verse to
legislation s uch ao n
ttvifies
departed from the usual
he was anxious that the Houseisiohnoultrineontd,adwobpiteba
wroeusoldluptiroon.
such as that proposed by his
triroenvocoafbly pledge them to a principle
clude
andthe oowonusildderai
recommended his Hon. Friend
from which they never afterwards Loduld recede. He could not
see why his HonourableFriend
upon
H subject which would be
discussed in one of its stages. The on. Gentleman who had
and move for leave to bring in a Bill
Iparsatcat
di edereosfsiendt introducing efli n
to modify his resolution. (Lord Lincoln) hoped his Hon.
Friend would do no such thing, but he hoped that he would
a on this
Even if his resolution
upon this subject. should be affirmed
it would not advance any measure which he might introduce,
withdraw the resolution,
it would considerably and if it should be negatived impede its
progress.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE said that in compliance with the
oguse had
the Member for Lymingtor,, he
wish of his floe. Friend,
was about to propose an amendment, which he trusted
would meet with the general consent of the House, at all
events he hoped it would be supported by a majority of
that House. ' The amendment which he had to propo.e, in
compliance With the wish of his Hon. Friend, was, that the
nts within the precincts of
practice of interments the metropolis
and large cities is injurious to the health of the population
and demands the serious attention of Parliament. What were
the objections with which the question had been met? It bad
been said that his Hon. Friend should at once have brought in
a Bill. Why, his Hon. Friend had already tried that course,
without success, and he now prol'osed to try a resolution.
He (Mr. (Duncombe) had had the pleasure of serving with
his Hon. Friend on the Health of Towns Committee, and
never was there a stronger case made out for legislative inter-
ference than in that Committee. He represented that por-
tion of the metropolis in which great excitement at present
existed with respect to the Spa-gelds burying ground. The
Noble Lord hadi stated that to make thy atteretion in the
law on this suNect would be to strike at the feelings of the
poor of this country, as they wished to mingle their berms with
those of their ancestors. Why, what they complained of
was, that they could not de this. The reason why an objectiee
was raised to any alteration of the law was, that certain parties
were making large fortunes under the existing ss stem, Enor-
mous fees were demanded for the removal of a C:)rvse c t9l the

parish in which it had died. "Itis a most monstrous princi-
ple," said the Hon. Gentleman, " that a demand of 7s. or 12s.
should be made because my relations think proper to bury me
out of the parish in which I died."—( Loud laughter. ) But in
some cases, where the parties were Dissenters, burial was re-
fused altogether. In legiilating upon this subject, the difficulty
they wou d have to contend with would ht. the Church, aria
therefore he had great pleasure in moving the amendment he
had jest read.
Dr. BOWRING seconded the motion.

Mr. M ACKINNON said he felt himself placed in a very de-
licate situation.--( Laughter.) His Hon. Friend, the Member
for Finsbury, with his winning ways, had come over to him,
and asked him to amend his resolution, and it appeared to
him (Mr. Mackinnon) that the only alternative open to him,
was either to give up the resolution altogether, and give up
all chance of his Bill, or allow the amended resolution to be
carried, which had just been proposed. With regard to his
bringing in a Bill, it must be recollected, ti at he would
have to incur a great deal of trouble and expense, and would
have to consult several legal gentlemen, and after introducing
it, he would be told on the second reading that it was wrong
in its details, and therefore it would be thrown out. If this
resolution should be passed by the House, it would give an
impetus to public feeling on the suleject. With respect to
what had fallen from the Hon. Member for Lambeth, respect-
the Dissenters, he would state that he had not the slighte.t
intention of reflecting on the Dissenters.- He would not
further trespass on the House than to say that he gave the
amendment his entire concurrence.
Sir R. INGLIS said that as he had taken considerable in-
terest in the Committee which was appointed to inquire into
this subject, he trusted the House would indulge him for a few
moments. He believed that the evils which were ccmplained
of had arisen from the general neglect with which, tkronghout
the whole of the eighteenth century, the religious part of the
community of England were treated by the Government. The
remedy for these evils was to be found in the extension 'of the
parochial system for the dead. A plan had been sug-
gested by the Committee, which was that 1 wishes
should be empowered by Act of Parliament to join
in the purchase of ground for the sepal - ure of the
dead. The Hon. Member for Finsbury had said that
the great difficulty they had to contend with was the Church.
Now let not the House be led away by the pleasing delusion,
that all those who were the advocates of cemeteries at Kensal
Green and at Norwood, or any other part of the circumference
of this metropolis, were embued with a pure disinterested zeal
to provide the cheapest place of sepulture for the poor inhabi •
tants of the metropolis; they were interested in inducing steps
to be taken for tha sepulture of the poor in the suburbs of the
metropolis. It must be recollected that, in this metro-
polis, in many cases, a large proportion of the income
of the clergy depended on what were called the surplice fees.
The maintenance of the ministers of religion, in the metro•
pops, was derived almost exclusively from the voluntary offer-
ings of their congregations at Easter, and whatever fees were
got for the burial-service, marriages, and baptisms; and un-
less they could, by extending their parochial system acsording
to the necessities of the case, so as to give places of sepulture
to the people more consistent with public decency, and even
health, there did not occur to him any other mode of remedy-
into the evil, which would not injure tho e whose maintenance
depended on the present system. If that were so, it would be
a poor consolation, if it were a consolation at all, that they
encouraged joint-stock companies in seven or eight locali-
ties round the metropolis, while they injured the efficiency
of the ministers of religion within the metropolis. All he
desired was this, that if her Majesty's Government undertook
the remedy of an evil which they all admitted was great, they
would pay due regard to those interestswhich it was his humble
desire to advocate in that House. By providing that many
parishes should unite for the purpose of purchasing places of
burial, and at the same time taking care of the interest of the
incumbent in the metropolis, he thought they might succeed
in overcoming the difficulties which surrounded this subject.
Sir G. GREY said he concurred with the Noble Lord op.
petite (Earl of Lincoln) in thinking that the proper mode of
proceeding would be by Bill, and not by resolution, and also
that it would be better to have any measure en this subject in-
troduced by some Member of the Government. The diffi-
culties which encumbered the subject had been ably stated—
difficulties which induced him to think that a mea-
sure on the subject could not be introduced
with any prospect of success, unless it were brought forward
by a member of the Government. The question they had now
to consider, he apprehended, was whether, after the facts which
had come to light with respect to interments in the metropo-
lis and other large cities, it was not a subject well deserving of
the consideration of the Legislature, and it seemed to be the
opinion of the House that any measure on the subject should
be brou*ht forward by her Majesty's Government. But if her
Majesty s Government were of opinion that the difficulties at-
tending it were so great that they declined to bring forward a
measure, he then thought that it was the duty of the House to
interfere, and even the very difficulties which attended it were,
in his opinion, an additional reason why the House should in-
terfere.—(Hear, hear.) The subject was so important, and
its evils were so pressing, that they would be forced to apply a
remedy.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir J. GRAHAM *aid be deprecated proceeding in this
matter by resolution, because it would lead to great incon-
venience, and give rise to false impressions out of doors. It
would be supposed that they were going to apply a remedy,
whereas there was no particular remedy proposed.
The Right Hon. Baronet (Sir G. Grey) said that Govern-
ment ought to turn its attention to the subject. Now he could
assure the House, that he had bestowed the greatest possible
attention upon it. He was the person who directed the atten-
tion of Mr. Chadwick to it ; but though the facts which that
gentleman collected were of the greatest importance, he must
say the remedy he suggested appeared to him (Sir J. Graham)
to be inapplicable. The question, as it affected the clergy,
which had been stated by his Hon. Friend (Sir R. Inglis), was
not the only difficulty. He did not think that that difficulty
alone would be insuperable; but in this instance that difficulty
was enhanced by others on the part of several Dissenting
bodies. Several Dissenting chapels had burial grounds
attached to them, not for the direct benefit of the
minister or the congregation, but in trust for the benefit of all
who worshipped in the chapel, whether minister or congrega•
tints. And those were not the only consderations involved.
There were besides peculiar interests and feelings on the part of
the congregation, and even on the part of each member of the
congregation. And if they made it compulsory upon those
Dis-
senters and others that they should not bury their friends in
their accustomed places of sepulture, but that they should be
removed elsewhere, then the objection stated by his Noble Friend
would arise. It was well-known that there was a natural a ish
on the part of the friends of a deceased person to ac-
: company his remains to their last home, and, if
they had to the taken to a distance, his relatives
would (in the case of a poor man) be obliged to '
forego their days' wages ; and in winter they would be
driven to the alternative of either walking four or five miles, or
of procuring a means of conveyance at a great expense. But
the great difficulty of all was the desire which was inherent
in the human breast—a feeling upon which he could not reason,
for it was stronger than reason—a feeling which he would not
call prejudice, for it was connected with the best sentiments of
human nature—the desire of a relative wishing to lay his
bones by the side of his relative; and however the feelings of
the public might be roused upon the great evils of the present
system he was satisfied that they would act most unwisely
in legislating hurriedly upon it. It was attended by great dif-
ficulties, but he did not mean to say that they
could not be got over by great care, caution, and consideration.
He had given his best auction to the subject, but he was not
prepared with any measure at present. If, however, any other
Member of the House who had given his attention to the sub.
ject, was able to see his way more clearly through its difficulties,
and was prepared with a remedy, he (Sir James Graham)
would be glad, instead of carping at it, to give it every aid in
his power. He could not concur in the abstract form of the
resolution proposed by the Hon. Member for Finsbury, though
it was an improvement upon that of his Hon. Friend. He
would continue to give his attention to the subject; and from
interviews which he had upon the subject with various Dis-
senting bodies, he was satisfied, though convinced of
the great difficulties attending it, that any reasonable
arrangement would be agreed to on their part. He did
not think that a little delay in a matter like the present would
be thrown away. A case like the present was one in which
first impressions were always strong, but it was one also
where the greatest deliberation was required. He would,
therefore, advise the House not to pass a resolution like the
present, which would only impede the object they all had in
view.—( Hear, hear.)

Mr. MACKINNON having withdrawn his resolution,
The House then divided, when there appeared.
For the amendment 66
Against it
Majority against the Government 17
Loud cheering followed the announcement of the numbers.
AGRICULTURAL STATISTICS.
Mr. MILNER GIBSON brought forward his motion re-
garding agricultural statistics, of which he had given notice.
He wished to ascertain the number of acres which were in the
United Kingdom, and the amount of agricultural produce
which they yielded. The House and the public were in total
ignorance on this subject, and last year its importance had
been fully recognised, when he brought forward the subject.
The Government then expressed its approval of the attempt
he had made to obtain this information, and tho then Pre-
sident of the Board of Trade said he would endeavour to ac-
complish the object. He would not now enter into the details
of the measure, but simply submit to the House the resolu-
tion which he had introduced last year, with a view of eliciting
from the Government what progress had been made in ful. •
filling their promise. Scarcely a day passed, that statements
of a most conflicting character were not made on this very
subject ; and it was most essential to the public that ex-
act and authentic information should be obtained.
The motion having been seconded,
The SPEAKER put the resolution, which was, " That an
humble address be presented to her Majesty, to the
effect that it was the opinion of the House that it was desirable
to obtain information regarding the amount of acres in cultiva-
tion in the United Kingdom—the amount of agricultural pro-
duce, with a specification of the various kinds, and such other
information as might enable the House to arrive at a correct
estimate of the agricultural capabilities of the United Kingdom.
Sir G. CLERK said he thought the Hon. Member brought
forward the matter rather with the view of ascertaining what
the Government had done on the subject than with any serious
intention of taking the opinion of the House on the resolution
itself, which it was impossible they could accede to. He was
ready to admit the great importance and the great benefit that
would result from the attainment of accurate information on
these points. The Right Hon. Gentleman the late Pre-
sident of the Board of Trade had promised to make an
attempt to obtain the requisite details, and in pursuance
of that promise had, during the'recess, written to the Right
Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Depart-
ment, who communicated with the , Poor-law Commissioners
on the subject, as it was thought the information might be fur-
nished by the various poor-law guardians throughout the king-
dom. '1 he Poor-law Commissioners, in reply, stated that
there were innumerable difficulties and objections to such a
course, and that it would be found almost impossible to carry
such a plan into operation. There was no objection on the
part of the Government to lay before the House the letter
which had been written by his Right Hon. Friend to the Poor-
law Commissioners on the subject, and their reply upon the
subject. The substance of the reply of the Poor-law Commis-
sioners was, that they could not impose any duties on the poor-
law guardians throughout the country, except what were in
some way connected with the poor-law system. He (Sir G.
Clerk) had no objection to give all the imormation on this
subject
t hny
obtained
gnttihraet,
accu-
rate,uanndlessthe
He was sorry he
could not point out any satisfactory means for overcoming these
full, comprehensive,
m ust
satisfactory. be
difficulties. He must again repeat that he was willing to give
statistics
ih
wouldis paver,
riot were
e at ullt, t
all
every facility to obtain the information required, and that he
considered it most important. He, however, hoped that, on the
present occasion, the Hon. Gentleman would withdraw his
motion. _ _

----iiir.AGLIONBY thought the subject well worthy the at-
tention of the House. He supposed his Hon. Friend must
withdraw his motion ; but he would be anxious to see these
letters, and to ascertain what the gentlemen had said on the
subject. The Right Hon. Gentleman had admitted the im.
portance of the information, but did not show much anxiety
to obtain it. 'They had applied to the Poor-law comm;s-
sioneri, it. was true, but why had they not applied to the Tithe
Commissioners, Who cowld give the largest atrumut of informa-
tiow, and the most accurate? There would be no difficulty
Lis part, he would under-
whatever in obtaining the requisite infotratiOn, if a real
lett dt°ayPrw°:elikr,e IC:obtain a return of the number
ao6niaeic'ertlepsewlc"eultivated in his parish, and the ar;iquat of the various
kinds of produce, and every Hon. Mem'ber could do the 811T11,4
Mr, CHRISTOPHER as the representative of a large

agricultural community, must say a few words on this subject.
Since last year he had made inquiries among the most intelli-
gent of his constituents and found that there would be great
difficulty in obtaining the reqnsite information. He Therefore
saw very great difficulty in proeuring an)thing like accurate
information. Ile had communicated with very intelligent
persons among his own constituency, and they had all agreed
that it was next to imp ssible to give the information so as to
lead to the result which his Hon. Friend the Member for Man.
chester, ' evidently aimed at—he meant the quality of the pro-
duce of the country. It would be, he must acknowledge, a
very desirable thing if this could be done, but he believed that
perfect accuracy was next to impossible, and if the returns
were not accurate they would be worse than useless.' He did
not wish to prevent these returns, but it was a well known
fact, that appearances were frequently deceptive, and last year
the crops bore every appearance of a large yield, but it
turned out that it was much lighter than was
generally expected, and he believed that if five stacks were
to be taken in rotation they would find that the grain pre-
duced would be at least one-eighth more this year than it
was last. He believed that ,it was a general impression that
persons speculatively'• engaged in the corn-trade could send
individuals throughout the country who from a mere inspec-
tion of the crops as they stood could arrive at some vague
notion of the quantity of the produce. But that was not suf-
firient for the purpose of the motion of his lion. Friend the
Member for Manchester, and he himself could not see in
what way they
.could come at any satisfactory conclusion. if
he could render any assistance in arriving at that conclusion
he would most readily do se, but as the meter stood he did
not see the likelihood of any great utility from acceding to the
motion.

Mr. WARBURTON was glad to see such a concurrence of
opinion in the importance of this question on both sides of the
House. But believed that the information would not be so diffi-
cult to obtain; as some Gentlemen imagined ;.and if the Govern-
ment really felt that the information was desirable, he believed
that where there nas a will there was a way. His Hon. Friend
the Member for Cockermouth (Mr. Agliotiby) had referred to
the Tithe Commission. He believed that they would hind no
difficulty in getting the acrealee surface under cultivation ;
and if they wished for the amount of produce they might apply
to the registrar of births, deaths, aid marriages— ( Great
laughter.) Well, all he meant to observe was, that there was
machinery already in existence; and if they objected to the
returns of the Tithe Commutation Act, they might employ
instead the officers engaged to make the ordnance survey.
He believed that a saving would be effected and that some-
thing like 7(;0,000/. or 600,000/. would he saved from the
cost of -the Poor-law Commissioners in the aggregate
of parishes. An objection had been taken to say
accurate survey of the country, because lion.
Gentlemen conceived that it might lead to a remodelling and
an increase of the land-tax. Within the last four or five years
repeated attempts had been made to obtain this survey, and
Lord Sydenbam especially had used every effort to obtain a
Committee with a view to that object, but he had been beaten,
and the matter remained still in abeyance. He was, however,.
glad to see that there was an alteration in the views of Hon.

Gentlemen opposite, and that they were wiser than they had
been. Put he was only fearful that there was not the disposi-
tion, for he must repeat that where there was a will there was
a way.
Mr. DARRY conceived that this discussion could not pos-
sibly lead to any useful end. It was true that the Tithe Com-
mission would give them the returns of all the acres under
cultivation, but those returns contained no data to meet the
requirements of the Honourable Member for Manchester,
for it was next to impossibility to get at the amount of agricul-
tural produce. They could not guage the barns, nor ascertain
the amount of stock in its several conditions. No Voger than
two years ago it was conceived that there was likely to be a
very large crop ; the straw, it was true, was a very large crop,
but when the grain came to be thrashed out of it, the yield
proved to be exceedingly light. What he would ask the Hon.
Gentleman then was, who was to furnish the information ?
If it were not accurate it would be mischievous, and he thought
that any attempt to make it accurate would prove entirely
futile. For these reasons he should oppose the proposition.
Mr. BARING said that be was glad to see that such a sense
of the importance of this question was on both sides of the
House. He was aware that there was the utmost difficulty
in obtaining correct statistical information on agricultural
topics. Lord Sydenham had used ever yexertion to obtain it,
but he had failed. Yet to the extent to which the Hon.
Member for Manchester desired the returns, he thought there
would be no difficulty. He feared some • corn-law reason
for refusing the effort to obtain that information. What
might be a bugbear at first, was frequently found easy
of attainment afterwards, and if they began by making
these returns from year to year, they would be able to get
them more and more regularly. lie was, not sure whether he
should have risen on that occasion, were it not to refer to the
valuable statistical details presented by the Board of Trade, and
commonly called Mr. Porter's Statistics of Trade. He re-
gretted exceedingly that these returns were now two years
behind-hand, because the returns were of 'ouch service to the
country, and would be still more so if they were regularly
made from year to year.
Sir W. JOLLIFFE was convinced these statistics could not
be attained without considerable difficulty, and even then he
should be inclined to question their accuracy. The Ho.
nourable Member for Bridport admitted that the
surveys were fifty per cent. erroneous ; and if this
statement were true it would be necessary to have another sur-
vey of the whole country before they could promise these
statistics. Now if they had to wait for that cheque, the lion.
Member for Manchester would have some time to wait before
he could see the produce.

Dr. 130 W RING admitted any calculation could only be of
an approximate character, but experience would bring them as
rear the truth as possible; and thus they would form an
important element for the information of the country. /Ur.
Porter furnished them with some valuable information upon
nearly all other topics connected with trade, and he could see
no reason why they siwubt not have correct returns of the
produce of land.

Mr. GLADSTONE said it would be imagined from the
arguments indulged in by Hon. Members opposite that the
Government lacked the will or the zeal necessary for obtain-
lag this information, but so fares he was concerned, he must
altogether disclaim any such indifference. He thought the in-
formation was valuable to the public at large, but
it was especially valuable to the agricultural eommuni'y.
There was, however, great difficulty in the way of obtaining
it with any degree of accuracy, for the farmer had not the
same opportunities for making calculations as other trades and
professions. So far from there being a disinclination on the
part of the Government to adopt steps on this subject, he be-
lieved they had been examining every class of officers, who
were in any degree, prima facie, capable of undertaking
the inquiry, but none could yet be found, to
whom they could intrust so important and difficult a
matter. One Hon. Member opposite recommended that the
returns ought to be collected by the clergymen of the various
parishes throughout the country, but, for his part, he thought
they were sufficiently occupied in other matters without
thrusting upon them other duties. Then, again, the lion.
Member for Cockermouth had advised the House to entrust
the inquiry to the Tithe Commissioners, but, independently of
their bein4 also sufficiently occupied they had not
pursued their operations into all the parishes of the country.
Up to the present moment many parishes had not come into
the views of the Commissioners, and with respect to ttose
parishes the functions of the Commissioners had teased.—
( Hear, hear.) They came to this discussion unLer very tin_
avourable circumstances. Ile would "..commend that the
House should wait for full infororgilen, and he had no doubt
that it would be 'shown tbm',, there were great difficulties in
the way of obtaining tast information. Tbere would be ex-
pense certainly, —But he did not think that the Muse would
grudge tte expense. There was nothing inquisitorial in the
inquiry, if they could, in the course of the spring, ascertain
the breadths of they
employed in the course of the year upon
particular kinds of produce. The farmers had but little oppor-
tunity of stating what really affected them. He hoped, there-
fore, that when the House came to read the correspondence,
they wonld be disposed to give the statements on both sides
their fullest consideration.

Mr. HUAIE thought that with all the time the Commis-
sioners had been engaged upon this inquiry they could have
.given a full statement to the House. The Commissioners of
Tithe Inquiry had had plenty of time, and he would undertake
to make a fuller report at no greater cost than 3,00 1. When
the Reform Bill was in progress he (Mr. Hume) suggested the
employment of the parish schoolmaster to do the duty of the re-
gistration. If the Government would only take a lesson from
the practice of the East India Government they would see how
easily the proper returns would be made from local agents. In
every district in Bombay the whole of the produce, twice a-year,
was receided by an Acer in each village. He hoped the time
was coming when we should have similar returns of the produce
of every acre in the kingdom. It appeared to him that they
were making difficulties which did not exist.—( Hear, hear. )
Colonel SIBTHORP said that he would object as much to
a man coming to discover the produce of his land as he would
to one who came to learn what was the quantity of wine
his cellar contained.—(Laughter.) Nothing could be more
absurd.

Mr. VILLIERS thought that when the Gallant Member
made that observation, he forgot the distinction between the
produce of land and the contents of his cellar. He would tell
him the difference—one was for food for the public, and the
other for his own private use. He did not undertake to supply
them with wine.—( Laughter.) What they wanted to knew
was, what was the amount of food in the country, which infor-
mation he did not think it difficult to obtain; but the Govern-
ment did not wish it to be known what the difference was be-
tween the supply and the demand. The Hon. Member for
Lincoln stated that the tenants objected to the information,
through fear there would be an immediate rise in the rent.
They had given their sanction to persons being sent on the
continent, to obtain information whereon to found their ar-
rangements. He only mentioned that to show that they thought
it possible to know and to learn correctly what was the
amount of the produce when it suited their purposes.
Mr. DENISON did not think there was any unwillingness
on the part of the Government to seek for this information.
For one, he should be glad to see such returns produced, and
considered that it could be accomplished and might be ob-
tained by parties properly appointed. If the machinery were
geed, he was sure that the results would be beneficial. He
hoped that the Government would pay attention to the sugges-
tions which were made.
Mr. MILNER GIBSON said it had been complained that
he had not proposed a plan. He would, however, refer to the
opinion of Mr. Saunders, who was stated by the Honourable
Member for Newark to be the most competent authority on the
subject. When the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary for
the Home Department asked him whether' twould
de-
sirable to have correct statistical information furnished be
y the
Government with regard to the quantity of land sown with
barley, wheat, and oats, in the United Kingdom, he said
that there could not be a more imperative duty on the Go-
vernment than to ascertain the quantity of food the
people were supplied with, and that he was surprised
that the Government had not got such returns long before.
The Hon. Gentleman concluded by recommending the House
to appoint a Committee to inquire into the best mode of ascer-
taining the produce of the land.
Sir ROBERT PEEL had not the slightest objection to the
production of the information. As to the poor-law guardians,
he doubted the policy of mixing up poor-law unions with poli-
tical objects. He doubted the policy of employing Poor
law Com missioners to furnish the information required, considering it
much better to have parties appointed for that purpose. He con.
sidered that the best plan would be to have the correspondence
before them, together with the statements of the Poor-law
Commissioners. He trusted the Hon. Member for Manchester
would not press the subject to a division, as he could assure
him the Government would be most happy to give all the assis-
tance to obtain the information. His Right Hon. Friend the
la,e President of the Board of Trade while in
office— ( Hear, hear)—had done all in his powe
to obtain information. Ile thought the Execwive Go ern..
anent would be better able to fortis plan than a Committee ' •
but if it was found necessary, there could not be the slightest
objection to that Committee.
Mr. RICARE 0 thought it would be better if his Hon.
Friend t,hould wait till the papers had been produced.
Mr. M. GIBSON then withdrew the motion.
On the motion of Dr. BO.WRING the following Members
were appointed in Committee on colonial accounts:—Dr.
Bowring, Mr. Hope, Mr. Spooner, Mr. Trotter, Mr. M'Geaehy,
Sir Thomas Hepburn, Mr. H. J. Baillie, Mr. Grogan, Mr.
Pringle, Mr Forster, Mr. Cobden, Mr. Bouverie, Mr, Aldam,
Mr. Hume, and Mr. P. M. Stewart.
he Customa Duties ilia \vas reported, the Bill ordered to
be engrossed, and wad a third time to-morrow.
The rtiblic Museums Bill was reported, and ordered to be
read a third time to-morrow.
The Glass Excise Duties Bill was reported, and ordered to
be read a third time to-morrow.