Star.
London, England, 1808-06-04 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

The SPEAKER, upon taking the Chair, was summoned to the
House of Lords to hear hi; Majesty's Commission read. On his
return he acquainted the House that that House had been in the
House of Peers, and had heard the Commission read, whereby
the Royal Assent had been given to the Military Inquiry Com-
missioners' Bill, and several Private Bills.
Mr. RICHMO N El, from the Commissioners of the Customs, pre-
sented a Copy of the Memorial relative to the Woollen Good:
holongirg to Messrs. Mahony and Company, of Cork, from
Messrs. 'l'. Simmons and Company, of Liverpool.
The Land Revenue Bill was read a third time, passed, and or-
dered to the Lords.
The Hare Shooting Bill was read a first time, and ordered to
be read a second time on Wednesday.
The Irish Glebe House Bill pased through a Committee.—
The Repejt was then received, and the Bill was ordered to be
engrossed.
The Annuity Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be
committed on Thursday.
Mr. HUSKISSON brought in the Ten Millions Five Hundred
Thousand Pounds Loan Bill, which was read a first time, and
ordered to be read a second time on Wednesday.
The Cinque Ports Bill was committed, and the Report received
and ordered to be taken into blither consideration on Monday
tottnight.
The Oxy-muriatic Acid Driwbacit Bill was read a first time,
and Ordered to be read a second time on Wednesday.
'the Pilchard and Copper Bills were retorted, and ordered to
be printed.
The Small Pox Prevention Eill passed through a Committee.'
The Report was then received, and ordered to be taken into fur-
ther consideration on this day three months.
The Barrac'es Estate Billpes.ea through Committee, and the
Report ordered to be received on Wecit:esday.
The Sugar and Coffee Exportation Bill went through a Com-
mittee, and the Report ordered to be received on Wednesday.
Ths Ale Licence Bill was ordered to be omitted on Wednes-
day next.
The Acquitted Persons' Compensation Bill was ordered to be
read a second time on Friday.
The Curates' Bill was ordered to he committed on Wednesday.
The Scotch Judges Pension Bill was reported, anti ordered to
be read a third time on Wednesday, and to be then engrossed:
Mr. WHARTON hi ought up the Report of the American
Tad* Committee, and a Lill was ordered accorelingl.;.
BANKrtifs SMALL NOTLS.

Mr. HUSKISSON stated, that he had already
pointed out to the House the necessity of restraining
the negociation of small mites issued by country
bankers and others, under a certain sum. He wish-
ed to assure some Gentlemen on the other side of the
House, that he fully agreed with them en a general
principle, that the Legislature ought not to interfere
in matters of Commerce. Ent without such a regu-
lation Is he now proposed, there would be no mean;
of guarding the lower orders of people against the
• irnpositions practised upon them, and the losses they
'sustained in consequence of taking such notes as these,
instead of ri`sh, and which notes generally have a
heavy discount. He then moved that leave be given
to bring in a Bill to restrain the negotiation ofpromis-
sory notes in England, under a certain sum, and'
upon inland bills of exchange.
Mr. THOMPSON wished the Hon. Gentleman
would make a provision to restrain the issue of hank-
ers checks, for sums under ten shillings.
Mr. HUSKISSON admitted, that abuses did ex-
ist in the delivery of checks of this kind, and as far
as it was possible the Bill would be so framed as to
meet cases of the kind.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT said, that checks for
small sums were often given upon bankers in Ireland,
by persons who never had money in the hands of
bankers. The poor ignorant people to whom they
were given took them instead of cash, thinking them
as good as Bank notes. By such practices the public
were dyfrauded of several thousand pounds.
Mr. PARNELL wished that Ministers might at-
tend to the state of the silver coinage of Ireland,
which was most ruinous to the public. If something
WAS not done to remedy the evil, he should bring the
subject forward next Session.
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
HACKNEY COACH FARES.

Mr. HUSKISSON observed, that an Act had al-
ready passed for regulating the fares of hackney
coaches, according to the price of oats. But sisice
then there was an advance in the price of every arti-
cle of I;fe, as well as of horses ; and, therefore, it

would be necessary to afford some relief'to the owners
of coaches. Provision should also be made for, more
effectualli Preventing them from being injured in
their bminess by stage coaches, of which from 4. to
SOO ruu continually, plying between the metropolis
and the neighbouring villages ; by restraininj such

culpation. He asked then, if any system, so liable to
abuse, did not imperiously require Parliamentary in-
terference to correct and improve it. He submitted
then to the consideration of the House, with great
humility, the following motion, which has long occu-
pied his most serious attention. He then moved,
" That leave be given to bring in a Bill to expedite
the issue of Courts Martial Trials and other Military
Inquiries, and to prevent any undue interference in
impeding or delaying the result thereof."
The SECRETARY at WAR said, that as he could
forme no way by which the Bill proposed could be
rendered less objectionable in any of its subsequent
stages, than it appeared to him to be now,he should op-
pose the introduction of it altogether. Independent
of the many objections in detail, there was one to the
principle, that was in itself insurmountable—the oath
enjoined by the Mutiny Bill, that was passed but the
other day, to be. taken by all Officers sitting on
Courts Martial, not to reveal their sentence till that
sentence had been approved of by his Majesty—and
that objection could not be obviated by any alteration
or amendment introduced into the Mutiny Bill, as no
such could be introduced for the space of one year,
till the annual revival of that Act. After stating
this one and insurmountable abjection, it would not
be necessary to go into any length in reply to the other
argume ii of the Honourable Gentleman. There
could be 1,0 argument drawn from analogy between
the Navy and the Army—they were services of a na-
ture so essentially different. He did not see for what
end the Honourable Gentleman had cited the cases
which he had submitted to the House. • The case of
Colonel Cochrane Johnstone would not have been bet-

tercd if the right of revision had not existed, for if
doubts had arisen in the Royal breast as to the propri-
ety of that Gentleman's conduct, those suspicions
might have as effectually retarded the professional ;
advancement of that officer. He should certainly op- I
pose the motion.
Sir FRANCIS BURDETT supported the mo-
Lion. He complained a, the hardship suffered by
Mr. Cochrane Johnstone, who had betn acquitted of
all the charges against him. And no officer could in
future be secure against undue influence, unless simi-
lar practices were prevented. It was said a measure
of this kind would interrupt the prerogative of the
King in a way prejudicial to individuals, by prevent-
ing the King from acting mercifully towards them. ;
This argument held good in a tenfold degree when j
the h.linitir of officers was attacked after an acquit-
tal. He could see no inconvenience arising from the
manner in which Courts martial were conducted in the
navy. The same practice ought to prevail in the
army. Formcrly, he said, the army was not a pro-
fession of such consequence as at present. Now it
had power to a great magnitude. He wished Gen-
tlemen to shew whaL. difference there was between
the army and navy, aqd why it was necessaryto j
have more severity in the one than the other. Fie i
quoted another case, in which the sentence had 'been
totally suppressed. The report of the proceedings
and sentence was sent to the Xing, who might keep
it as lung as he chose. The Court was all this time
left sitting. And if the Kink sent lock the sentence
to be revised, whit was this but .ordliMitthe COW

•
caches from taking up passengers for short distances,' to alter their decision? and did not this do away all
before they left the metropolis ; the law already the effects of Military Courts-martial. In tke case of
passed for that purpose not being properly attended certain officers of the Perth militia, some years ago,
to. He then moved for leave to bring in a Bill to do the whole proceedings were suppressed. The subal-
away the fares and rates already existing, and to . tern offices 'who h d been tried were suffered to re-
establish others in lieu thereof.—Leave given.
aevistor OF COURTS ft'f :MAL SENTENCES. daftthereyhahvaindg
nosu suffered touf•ocreonh;
imprisonment,
sothnemirenrtasnank,
Mr. LYTTLETON rose to make his promised , their characters to theworld. Itwassaid that this trial
motion, with respect to the Royal right of revising the - was suppressed to save the Colonel, who was prose-
Sentences of Courts Martial. He' was fully aware of tutor, from the exposure of his improper conduct.--e
the great importance of the subject, and waked it had This practice was also a great evil in a constitutional I
fallen to the lot of one more capable of doing justice point of view, as the Crown had now, in a great
to it—the Honourable Gentleman then entered degree, the power of nominating a Court,-martial ;
into a history of Courts Martial, and their origin. He , and if an officer was to find himself entirely at the
shewed that the power of the sword was first commit- mercy of the Crown, it was impossible he could ever
ted solely to the power of the Crown, in the arbitrary feel a sufficient degree of zeal and ardour in defend-
reign of Henry VIII. GOD forbid he should ever ing his country.
submit to that House, any proposition that tended in Sir ARTHUR WELLESLEY said, that in ad-
the slightest degree to restrain the Constitutional dition to the serious objections founded upon the Ma-
power of the Crown over the army ; but he would tiny Act, there was another which Gentlemen should
contend, that from history, it was evident that that j attend to before the present Bill could be passed into
House had a right of interference in the general con- a law, without an essential alteration in the Articles
troul of the army, and the Mutiny Act tt as a proof of of War.
that right ; that there could be no necessary connec- General FITZPATRICK was jealous of any mo-
tion between the right of revision, and the good go- tion that tended to interfere with the right of the
vernment of the army, was sufficiently obvious from Crown, in the constitutional controul of the Army.
the consideration, that such a right was not acknow- I He did not think it should be tampered with ; there
'edged, and did not exist in the navy, a branch of our was no analogy between the Navy and the Army, in
defence that was not inferior in discipline or in relation to their respective regulations ; there were,
any other requisite qualification to the army. He fur instance, many regulations in the Army that
admitted, that if no abuses had existed in consequence t would not be admissible in the Navy, and vice versa,
of the right of revisioil, it would not have become him many in the Navy that would be ruinous in the
to propose any alteration in a system of things so long i Army. What Honourable Gentleman would vest in
established ; but he feared too many instances had the Commander of a Regiment, the despotic powcia
occurred, that would go to justify the proposition he so necessarily submitted to the discretion of a Cap-
had to submit to the douse. W'hen he first had the thin of a Ship of War ?to argue thus, therefore, was
honour of a scat in that House, a paper was laid upon to argue upon a strained analogy. He should be
the table, relative to the proceedings of a Court Mar- obliged to resist the motion.
tial, whose sentence had been changed from a sentence The SEC R ETA RY at WA R replied.
of acquittal into a sentence of censure ; another case Mr. LYTTLETON then shortly replied. tie ac-
had occurred, which had excited a considerable por- knowledged he had not been awareof the insurmount-
tion of public animadversion ; a gallant officer had able objection stated by the Secretary at War. For
been honourably acquitted, and yet in consequence of the present, therefore, he should withdraw his motion.
that right of revision, that gallant officer was passed The motion was accordingly withdraw a.
over in a course of general promotion, and all his SUGAR DISTILLERY.
professional prospects and hopes closed and blasted Lord BINNING moved the second reading of the
for ever. The Honourable Member neat adverted to Sugar Distillery Bill.
the case of Captain, now Sir Isaac Coffin ; this Gen- Mr. BRAND admitted the general principle, that
tleman had been tried for making a false muster, and as a measure of policy, the distillation of corn might
was sentenced by the Court Martial to be dismissed be stopped in time ofscarcity ; and that upon a well-
his ship ; but the Act requiring, that all persons con- founded apprehension of scarcity, a power should be
victed of such offence should be dismissed the service, vested in the Crown of suspending the grain distilla-
the Admiralty, in conformity, he said, did actor- tion by proclamation. when the scarcity should arise.
dingly dismiss him the service ; whereupon he peti- But he denied that there was any scarcity at present,
tioned the King in Council, who referred his case to or that there existed, from the actual state of prices,
the Twelve Judges, who reported that the sentence any reason to suppose that a scarcity of grain in ge-
was not legal, and the Captain was subsequently re- net al would soon occur. The high price of wheat
stored to his command. He then adduced the ease alone oneslit not to be considered as affording any sure
relating to the Perthshire Fencibles ; a charge had grounds for an apprehension of scarcity. Under these
been brought against some subalterns, who, after a circumstances, the agriculture of the country ought
long and impartial trial, had reason to expert (as it not to be meddled with ; and he would therefore op-
was publicly expected) that they would have been pose the motion.
honourably acquitted, but from that day to this no I Mr. MAR RYATT adverted to the preposterous
man could say he had official knowledge of that sen- maxim, that the saving of grain would diminish its
mice, for it was totally suppressed, and there was quantity—which was the assertion of the agricultu-
great reason to suspect that that suppression was ralists. The West India Colonies, he contended, were
owing to the great interest exerted on behalf of the of the greatest use to the country, and particularly to
Colonel who had brought the charges, and whose the landed interest itself. It was of great importance,
character would have been seriously impeached in the therefore, that these colonies should not be ruined,
acquittal of the accused, and the manner of that ex- and this was the only measure of relief that at present
_ .

offered. The Committee were employed in -finding
other sources of relief ; but none of them could have
an immediate operation. This WIIS a temporary
measure. In the present circumstances, it Would be
of great use to the country, and it could not be inju-
rious to the owners and occupiers of land. Without it,
Bonaparte's plan of destroying our West India Co-
lonies must succeed ; and his other object, of. starving
this country into subtttission, might be materially as-
sisted by an improvident consumption of out' grain,
when we had the means of saving it in part, by ex-
cluding it from the distilleries. Whether viewed,
therefore, as a measure of relief to the West Indies,
or as a proper measure of precaution with regard to
this country, it was equally proper and necessary.
Mr. EDEN contended, that the present circum-
stances of the world were the strongest argument
against any discouragement of agriculture. It was
most impolitic to narrow the market, and thereby di-
minish the production of grain. From the Report
of the Committee itself, it appeared that it Was im-
proper tb extend the measure to Ireland. The distress
of the West-India Colonies was said to spring from
the stoppage of the intercourse with the Continent:
Ministers affirmed that the Orders in Council would
open this. These Orders had been six months in
operation, and what had they done ? The intercourse
had only been more effectually put an end to, and the
distress of the planters augmented. The best mea-
sure of relief would be to open the intercourse direct
between the colonies and other nations, while the pre-
sent state of things continued. He concluded, by
declaring his opposition to the measure.
Mr. BATHURST observed, that he perfectly ad-
.

mitted the general Principle, that an interference with
agriculture was improper. But general principles
must have a general application. At present the cir-
cumstances of the country were peculiar, and we had
only a choice of difficulties. Considering, therefore,
the distress of the planters along with the actual want
of food experienced in many parts of the country,
under all the circumstances of the case, be could not
but approve of the proposition.
Mr. DAVIES GIDDY objected to any interfe-
rence with the agriculture of the country on any
ground, except that of scarcity; and if the Bill should
go into a Committee, he would move to leave out
that part of the preamble that made the distress of
the planters in any degree the foundation of the
measure.
Mr. COKE repeated his assertion, t} at the West
India planters had, by their speculation, in a great
measure brought their distresses on themselves. He
wished, however, these distresses to be relieved, but
not at the expellee of the viculturist. They had
accused the landed interest of a desire to monopolize.
But grain could not be monopolized, though -sugar
might. The landed interest were said to be an un-
reasonable set of people, and too anxions for high
prices. They were not, however, the advocates of
high prices. It was not by the high price Of one kind
of grain that the farmer was enriched. This Was often
no more than what was requisite to repay him for the
failure of other sorts. If the markets were harrowel,
however, no more grain would be produced than
would' be necessary for the dimipished alusumptionl

and we would soon have scarcity and high pti,:es. H.,
objected to the measure, therefore, bec:tu e it xruilL
tramp agricultural ercertion, and in the long run grea,
ly advance the price of grain.
Mr EYRE approved of the measure, both as are,
lief to the planters and as expedient from die rre.,..
situation of turd country
Mr. WILBER 101 ICE 1111..licatc.d th:f meaßlite,
on account of :he apprehended scarcity, ar.d the want
actually experienced it different places. 'Fix :to.
cultural interests would not suffer, for the exclusion
of grain from the Distilleries would not throw lilt°
I the market a quantity equal to what had been usuall%
i• imported. The measure, he said, was gmeraliy ay
proved in Yorkshire.
1
Mr. CALVERT, adverting to the cltanours about
high prices, observed, that if we wen. to rail: out
,
i own supplies, the farmer must have a rice that: mig,ir.
I render it worth his while to cultivate poor as vifil 4'
rich land.

Sir J. NEWPORT deprecated tampering wit!:
agriculture of the country, and deelarc:d, tilat this
measure Would be of the niost fatal consecpace to
the tillage of Ireland, which was beef:ming ar:at
source of supply to Gre..q Britlin. Every thing
that he had heard only confirmed his objection to
the measurtt. To prove that there was no actual
scarcity, he stated from competent authority that tl:e
price cf grain was falling in there i,la es wi:ere, from
the stoppage of intercourse with the neighbouring
districts, it had risen to the greaten. height.
Mr. MANNING spoke in favour of the Bill, ;hick
was absolutely necessary to prevent the ruin of the
Colonies.

Mr. LOVEDEN contended, that there was not the
least necessity 14 this measure en any of the grounds
that had been stated.

Lord-BU RGLILTR s T stated the fact, that in re-
bruary, 180'2, the price of wheat was higher at the
opening of the distilleries than now when they w(.l-
- be shut ; and then there could not be a prospect of
an abundant harvest, which we at present had. This
fact *as a, complete answer to all that had been said
about a scarcity.
Sir JAMES HALL would think, that he Aar,
doned the best interest of the country, and laid the
foundation of famine, if he neglected any opportunity
of opposing this measure.
Mr. WESTERN had not heard one word in answer
to the observation, that in istr2 the prices of wheat
were higher at the opening of the distilleries than now.
when they were to be shut. He contended, that from
the state and steadiness of the prices of grain in gene-
ral, there was not the least foundation for the opine-
hension of scarcity. Nothing like a case had, there-
fore, been made out, that could justify this measure.
The moment would come, when the House would
grievothly lament the discouragement given to the
agriculture of the country.
Lord WILLIAM RUSSELL expressed his sur-
prise at the silence of Ministers on a question of this
importance, and especially of the Right Honourable
Gentleman ( Perceval)who had risen on a certain occa-
! sion, and spoken against time for an hour without
saying a word that applied to the point in hand. He
wished to know, whether Ministers considered them-
selves as responsible for this measure, which was
brought forward under such suspicious circumstances?
He asked, whether it was wise or politic to restrict
agriculture in the present circumstances of •he :min-
try d The proposition appeared to him inct taste=
with common sense.

The House then divided, For the Seccn I Read.
ing 90—Against it 39—Majority 51.