The Sun.
London, England, 1842-02-24 00:00:00

UARY 24, 1842.

might range from 545.- to 5Ss. a quarter ? He.should ha e
imagined that the natural wish would have been that corn
might be as- cheap as, possible, and he ( Mr. Hawes) thought
that any attempt to regulate the price of corn within those
limits, would in fact be condemned by every one.-
( Hear.) It. would be recollected that in 1810 the price was
90s. it then fell to 705., by the late law it was 645., and now
the Right Hon. Gentleman 'came down Ss. lower, and made
it 565. ; but he (Mr. Natives) had no more faith in the decla-
ration that 565. would be a fa r remunerating price for the
British farmer, than in the former declaration that 90s. would
be a fair remunerating price. He had a right to ask the
Right lion. Gentleman for some better basis for this law than
that corn should range between 545. and 58s. a quarter. Mr.
Ellis, in his examination, thought that wheat should be
brought down till it was brought to 505., and Mr.
M'Dougall, a Scotchman, said, that the Scotch far-
mer could grow wheat, and grow it with a profit, at
a price of from 6s. 6d. to 7s. a bushel ; and when asked if
the present rents in Scotland could be maintained with wheat
at that price, he said, " I am perfectly certain they could."
He (Mr. Hawes) would now come to the opinions of agents
who were engaged in collecting the rents on large estates,
and who spoke from their own great experience ; anti from
their statements he (Mr. Hawes) formed a strong confirma-
tion of what he had before said, that the Right Hon. Gentle-
man had no right to assume that 565. was the price which would
afford a fair remunerating price to the farmer ; and if he could
not prove, that he was bound to alter the scale in conformity
with the views of those who maintained that wheat can be grovsn
at a less rate. He (Mr. Hawes) remembered that the same
arguments as the Right Hon. Gentleman made use of now had
been brought before every agricultural committee. The same
principle was adopted in 1815, to hold the price at 90s. as
was now made use of to keep it at 565. He would now come
to the evidence of Mr. Tyson. That gentleman was asked,
Looking at Mr. Coke's estate in Norfolk, do you think the
farmer could afford to pay any rent whatever with wheat at ss.
a bushel ?" The answer was, " Yes, I think he could, with a
good profit." lie was then asked, "Do you think taking the
average of years, that Mr. Coke has a single tenant on his
estate that could afford to pay any rent with wheat at ss. a
bushel ?" The answer was " Yes." And the same question
being again put to him, he said, " I am not sufficiently ac•
quainted with the soil to answer confidently ; but, looking at
the great improvements in agriculture, &c., I think the farmer
will grow his wheat cheaper." He was then asked what sys-
tem of Corn•laws he would substitute instead of the existing
one ? He answered, " I should be for a fixed duty, begin-
ning with a high duty, and going down to a low one,
as low as five shillings." He was next asked if
he thought ss. per quarter as protection would be sufficient
to enable him to compete with the foreigner; his answer was
" Yes." The next question " With wheat at 40s. a quarter,
do you think the farmer would be able to grow wheat to any
extent ?" His answer was " Yes, I do." He (Mr. Hawes)
thought that the evidence of a witness having so great expe-
rience, examined and cross-examined to such an extent, and
still adhering to his former answer, was entitled to the atten-
tion of the publite-( Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Hawes) should
be prepared to show that the effect of the Right Hon. Gentle-
man's measure would he in reality to keep up wheat above 565.;
and he should next advert to the evidence of Mr. Beckworth,
the steward of the Duke of Bedford, who said that he could
grow wheat at Se. 6d a bushel. He (Mr. Hawes) did not
think then that the Right. Hon. Baronet was justified in giving
to the House a measure which should attempt to regulate the
price of wheat between 545. and 583. and to place the mean
(565.) as a remunerating price for the farmer, in the face of
such evidence as he ( Mr. Hawes) had adduced. The Hon.
Member for Dorsetshire had, he thought, unduly depre-
ciated the price of foreign corn, Taking the price
of wheat for a long series of years and at a duty
of 165., that would form a much higher protective
price to the farmer than 535. Corn could not be
obtained at Dantzic, for a long series of years, at a less price
than 40s. a quarter.-(Hear, hear.) That was very low in-
deed. The Right lion. Gentleman, however, in order to
lower the prices, struck out certain places, and to lower the
prices of freight, in the same way struck out certain places,
which, he said, sent over very little corn, and were only nomi-
nally corn-growing countries. lie ( Mr. Hawes) would beg
leave to call the Right lion. Baronet's attention to what had
been said by Mr. Jacobs-certainly a man of great ability and
integrity ; that gentleman said that wheat at Warsaw
could not be procured for less than 28s. ; add 20s. for
fseight to London, and we have it in London at 48e ; add the
duty, 165., and the price reaches 645. It was quite clear, then,
that all that wheat, extending over a series of many years.
could not be brought in to compete with the British farmers'
wheat at the price of 565. The Right Hon. Gentleman had,
therefore, in point of fact, protected the farmers to a much
greater extent than might at first sight appear. He would
now look at the returns made by the Consuls. They stated
the price at Warsaw to be 245. ; transit 205., and duty Itis.
would make the price 60s. The whole of that corn, therefore,
could not be brought into competition with the British farmer.
The 20s. which he( Mr. Hawes) had assigned as the cost for
transit from Warsaw to London was founded on the authority
of the old Consuls, Messrs. Wilson, M'Culloch, and Jacobs. If
a snore extended inquiry into this :question were desired they
would find papers before the House of Lords containing the
average price of wheat from the year 1770 to 1819. The price
of wheat at Dantzic then was 455. 4d., the freight 35.. 6d.,
which, with the duty of 165., made the price 655. ; again,
confirming the statement, that the whole growth of- the
Polish and Prussian wheat would, under the operation
of this law be excluded from competition with British grown
wheat. No wonder, then, that the Right Hon. Gentleman's
plan had excited universal discontent ; for though he fixed the
price of wheat at 565., it must, in point of fact, be much higher.
Hut in succeeding years, from 1823 to 1826, wheat was very
low. There was no demand in England, because the
harvests were good both at home and abroad. Taking the
ten years from 1821 to 1831, and taking also other years, it
would be found that the average price of wheat abroad
was 405., which, with the expenses of freightage and duty,
would make the price from 635. to 645. per quarter.
He did not mean to say that the Right lion. Baronet did not
introduce his measure with the best intentions, but then he had
no good foundation on which toe rest Isis law. if he meant to
secure an average price of 565. fur wheat to the ihome grower,
he had no light to propose a measure that would give, in fact, a
much higher protection, as any Gentleman would find upon
strict examination. In fact, the new scale would he a very
heavy tax upon bread. 'Cho Right lion. Baronet the Member
for Dorchester was opposed to a fixed duty, on the ground that
it seas impossible to maintain it. Now, if the idea of this im-
poss.bility were proved to be groundless, would the Right Hon.
Gentleman consent to give up the odious arrangement of the
sliding scale, and become a convert to a fixed duty ? Why
under a fixed duty the higher the prices were, the more likely
the duty would be to be paid. Even under the new scale the
Government would get a good deal more money than the old
scale would afford, because the latter approximated to a fixed
duty ; and the higher the price:, were of corn at home, the
more willing the consumer would be twget foreign supplies,
-and to pay that duty. But was the object of the sliding scale
of maintain price? Ifit were, look to the statement of the Right
lion. Baronet at the head of the Government, who declared
that no Act of Parliament could keep prices steady. Yet in
the same breath he sand that this was the essential intention of
his measure.-(Hear.) The fluctuations in the prices
of rye in Poland had been quoted to warn us
against relying upon the probable steadiness of price
in foreign wheat. But the fluctuations in rye were easily ex-
s lainee Rye was the main article of food of the people of
that country, who were without roads or capital ; so that if a
season were to fail in a single district, the price would be very
high, though in an adjoining province the stock might be
abundant ; but a gentleman largely connected with the trade
of Poland had observed to him that the fluctuations in rye in
that country should not at all affect England. He said the
prices of food in England ought to be more steady than any,
where else on the globe, because we had more facilities of
communication, more extended resources, and more capital
than any other country; and therefore we could always com-
mand regular and abundant supplies.--( Hear, hear.) On the
other hand the condition of Poland was exactly the
reverse, and no comparison could be made between the
two countries. The Right Honourable Gentleman re-
ferred to the period extending from the year 1765
to 1815. as a period of free trade in corn,
affected by nu other influences than the ordinary ones of supply
aad demand. But he would remind him that the French war
was one cause of extraordinary interference-indeed, to quote
the words of Mr. Tooke, there was no period in our experience
of free trade in corn of sufficient duration to enable us to draw
just conclusions on the subject. It was said that an alteration
of from 3s. to ss. a quarter would be made in the returns of
the averages by the new mode. He (Mr. Hawes) admitted
that a change to the full amount of ss. would be effected by the
addition of those new towns which the Right Hon. Baronet
proposed to introduce. The statement read to the House the
other evening by the Vice-President of the Board of Trade, con.
firmed this estimate. Taking the large towns of London
Wakefield, Derby, Leeds, Newcastle, Liverpool, and Hull, it
would be seen that on the Ist of September, 1841, the ale-
rage price of wheat was 755., whilst in the remaining 143 towns
the average was 675. 3d., making a general average of 71s. 2d.
He knew it was said that a good deal of speculation prevailed
at that time, but he would refer to the average weekly returns
made to the Board of Trade., anti ask could it be shown from
them that speculation in thelaverages was then at work ? If
you take the country towns, and exclude the large ones, you
would find a very considerable difference, as the large towns
furnished the higher averages, because of their
I greater consumption of the best quality of flour, which
caused a greater quantity of wheat to be sold.
But the small towns consuming less would exhibit lower ave-
rages. The result must be then, that in consequence of the
addition of a large number of country towns by the Right
lion. Baronet to those which had furnished the returns hitherto,
the general averages would be lower, and the new Bill would
lo.ep out foreign corn longer than would be the case under the
present scale. He should not be unwilling to take into con-
sideration the alleged peculiar burdens upon land ; and if such
burdens did exist, he agreed with his Hon. and Le'rned Friend
the Member for Bath, in thinking that one of two things
should be done-either that these burdens should be repealed,
or that a fixed duty upon corn should be imposed to the same
amount. That, however, was a subject for further consi-
deration. (The Hon. Gentleman was proceeding to say that
the landed aristocracy could not complain of the prohibition to
grow tobacco and other commodities in this country, when he
was met with loud interruption and cries of " Question," from
the Ministerial side of the House.) When Hon. Gentlemen
opposite cried " question," and manifested such marks of impa•
tience, he thought he might be permitted to observe that it
was not Hon. Gentlemen on his side of the House who had
caused a prolongation of the debate.-( Bursts of laughter. es
cries of " Oh, oh," on the /Ministerial benches.) -"a
not forget that, notwithstanding the moderes- 110 could
•
.
by which his Hon. Friend, the 1" -.e and able speech
'".
had introduced his neeeloes, -"suer for Wolverhampton,
e _ ,
no one gentleman connected with
the Government gigs condescended to reply to that speech. -
(Hear, hear.) That was not, he thought, a proper course to
pursue upon sluestien which so deeply interested the people of
this pc,gptry. Now, he thought Honourable Gentlemen
sin his side had a perfect right to prolong the de-
bate, if they thought fit to do so, until they had
extracted from ,the members of her Majesty's Cabinet
some answer, and some notice of the seseeehes made in support
of the motion before the House. While no member of the Go-
vernmeot addressed himself to the subject, he thought Hon.
gentiemen an his side had a right to consider that as a general
invitation to go on until it was convenient to them to break the
silence they had observed. He was sure that every member of
that House deeply deplored the distress which so generally pre-
vailed throughout the stoentyy and in his (Mr. Hawes's) opi-
nion, that ektress was wholly and solely attributable to the
operation of that. restrictive policy which regulated our
tyasle in articles of foreign produce. He confessed, however
imperfect might be the scheme of the Government,
it appeared to him to be an improvement upon
the system -which it was to displace ; and he
also thought: that the scheme was in a great measure an imita-
tion of the policy of the late Ministry, whom a factious oppo-
sition had removed from office. A Government so entirely
adopting the policy of its (Hear, hear, and
predecessors-
laughter from the Ministerial benches)-whoni they had sup-
planted and obstructed, were net, in his opininn, a Govern-
ment which (meld maintain the confidelice of this country.
Mc., MARE PHILIPS said, that though he should not
trespass long cm the indulgence of the House, he felt it his duty
0, state his opinions upon the important question then under
their consideration. fie could not forget that, when in moving
in a former Session the addresses to the Throne, he
stated the deep distress in which the clam-dry was involved,
that statement had been repivesi with suspicioe and incredu-
lity. The eOteoca of distress was now, however, admitted on
ailihands.; and it was evident that it was their duty to devise,
if possible, an immediate remedy for the evil. He remembered
that in June last, the Right Hon. Baronet, the Member for

Tamworth, told the Noble Lord (Lord .1. Russell) that, in his
opinion, the new Parliament should be reassembled at the
earliest possible moment for the purpose of taking into conside •
ration the important questions which then agitated the country.
Now, it appeared to him, (Mr. Mark Philips);. that
the Right Hon. Baronet had forgotten his own lesson,
and that he had not seemed anxious to take the condition of
the country into his immediate consideration. And now that
the Right Hun. Gentleman's measure had been disclosed, he
( Mr. M. Philips) was bound to say, that in his judgment it
would convey no relief for the distress of the country.
The measure had been received by the constituency whorn
he had the honour to represent, with feelings of deep de-
spondency and regret. Meny of his supporters in A141,-
chester had felt so much dissatisfaction that they had joined
with those who saw no remedy for the evils of the country
but an extension of the suffrage to every individual who
had attained the age of twenty-one years. He did
not himself, he should say, join in that movement,
although he was aware that he might, by such a declaration,
place himself in an attitude of hostility to the views of a large
body of those whom he had the honour to represent. The
Right Hon. Baronet had told them that he did not consider
that the distress of the country had arisen in any material
d-'-
eree out of the operation of the Corn-laws, and he also told
tliem that it was not in his power to offer any remedy for the
distress. He (Mr. M. Philips) did riot therefore wonder at
the disappointment which many had expressed. It had bet n
said, that the working classes did not participate in the
opinions of the advocates for an immediate repeal of the
Corn-laws.--( Hear, hear.) Now he wished to observe,
that lie had presented a petition against the Corn-laws signed
by 68,800 of the town which he had the honour to represent;
and as the entire population of that town amounted to no
more than 240,000 inhabitants, he thought that was a suffi•
ciently distinct intimation of the opinion of the male adult
population of the town of Manchester. When he first solicited
the suffrages of his present constituents ten years ago he had
stated to them his wish that a moderate fixed duty should be
imposed upon foreign corn, and that that duty should be
allowed gradually to decline until it altogether vanished. Ile
thought that such a measure would have been the best
that could have been proposed at the time. He was now
ready to support the motion of his Hon. Friend the Member
for Wolverhampton, and he felt that it was only a debt of jus-
tice to the millions of this country that the tax upon food should
be removed as soon as possible. He should say, with every
wash fairly to consider the measure of the Right Hon. Baronet,
that it appeared to him most objectionable in its character,
and that it was calculated to perpetuate in a modified form all
the evils of the present system. He admittted that it was
ran improvement upon that system, but he saw nothing in it
which would give steadiness to the trade in corn, or which
would take trade out of the hands of speculators and gamb-
lers. In the course of his own mercantile career he had never
thought it advisable to exchange the commodities in which lie
dealt for foreign corn, and he had never imported a single cargo
of corn, so dangerous and uncertain did he consider the trade
under a sliding scale. He should now say that he would not
think it consistent with his own interest to import foreign corn
under the new scale which the Right Hon. Baronet proposed.
What would become of their trade if the United Strits
adopted the plan which they had adopted at home, and applied
a sliding scale to every article of manufacture imported from
this country?—(Hear, hear.) Where were the merchants so
daring, or so speculative, as to run a risk of making shipments
of goods when they did not knew what duty might be imposed
on the imported goods ? or what merchants in this country
wo aid make over consignments while they were in doubt of the
duty to be imposed ?—( Hear, hear.) The people asked to
whom they were indebted for these laws, and they were
anxious to know who held the reins of office when the beauties
of the sliding scale were adopted, and they found that a landed
interest was then dominant.--( Hear, hear.) He did not be-
lieve that they were aware of the evils that would result from
the system they adopted ; and he was not sure that if the mer-
cantile interest had been as powerful at the time they would not
have to complain of similar evils in their commercial system.
But he considered the operation of the sliding scale was par-
tial ; and since the commencement of last Session he felt it to
be his duty to inquire into the condition of the poor where
he resided, and the population there were chiefly employed in
the occupation of hand-loom weaving ; but the extent anti in-
tensity of the destitution of the people was beyond what he had
any conception of.—( Hear.) He found that they possessed
neither bedding, nor clothing, nor furniture ; at least nothing
that could be called by those names. They had now suffered
for three years ; and as the articles of their manufacture were
exported to the United States, they were still to endure misery
for a longer period, because they would not admit the corn
which those States had to give them, if they were only allowed
to take it.—( Hear.) Though they worked as hard as possible,
they could not earn as much as would keep body and soul to-
gether, without any reference to clothing or furniture ; anti they
attributed that state of things to the operation of the present sys-
: tem. He believed if they were only allowed to import the
wheat which America had to give, this distress would be re-
lieved, and those who dragged on a mi.erable and wretched
existence, would be placed in a better condition.—(Hear.)
He was the more convinced of this, because, when a vessel
had arrived in Liverpool, from America, on the 238th of De-
cember, the cargo was exchanged for goods; and if such an
exchange was allowed to proceed on a more extended system,
what might they not expect?—( Hear, hear.) But he considered
it was very wrong to confine themselves to the single article of
wheat, for he believed if their trade was more free, a larger
exchange of every kind of agricultural produce would re-
sult.—( Hear, hear.) Hon. Gentlemen opposite were afraid
they should be flooded with corn in this country,
if a free importation were allowed ; but it should not
be assumed that foreign couutries were able to raise corn to
the extent supposed. They should adopt the rotation system,
which prevailed in this country. In the north of Germany he
did not know of any land so fertile as to produce crops in
continuous succession, so that the fears of Hon. Gentlemen
seemed to be -phantoms which had no existence. Hon. Gen-
tleman made another fatal mistake with regard to the opera-
tion of the sliding scale, when they said that wheat was only
admitted when a scarcity prevailed at home, and only in such
quantities as to make up for the deficiencies of the harvests in
this country. But it was notorious that the quantities im-
ported were not sufficient to feed the hungry of the country.--
( Hear, hear, hear.) There was one topic to which the
Right lion. Baronet had not alluded, namely, the effect of the
sliding scale on the safety of the Bank of England if, io
any one year, the scarcity of the count-y was such that they
must pay for the wheat imported in bullion instead of manu-
factures, the evils that must arise would be trivial in them-
selves compared with the evils that would follow such an ope-
ration.—( Hear, hear.) Under the present system everything
was hazardous and doubtful ; their capita was diminished, and
the loss entailed on the community was frightful to contem-
plate.—( Hear, hear.) It was not easy to calculate those
losses, and he would not give any figures to prove them, because
these, being the result of individual calculations, might not be
much relied upon ; but he would say, and without any
wish to exaggerate, that the sliding system placed the people
in a position in which it was rot right or safe that they should
continue.—( Hear, hear.) But he would produce a cacula-
tion made by the Mayor of Manchester, which would prove
the distress of the people. The Hon. Member then showed
by the statement that in the year 1836 the workman had a
snrplus, after all other necessary expenses, of 21. 7s. 9d.
for food per week, whereas in 1841 he was in an actual defi-
ciency of means to purchase food. In the former year he paid
36 per cent, of his income for food, and in the latter he paid
89 per cent.--( Hear, hear.) That was evidence of the en-
hancement of the price of food on the people. Much had b.-en
said with respect to the exports of the country, but be ( Mr.
P.) would say now, what he so often said before, that the ex-
ports were a very fallacious test of the prosperity of the
country. He stated that for the last two years the increase of
the exports was to be considered as evidence of the distress of
the country, because, from want of means, immense quantities
of goods had been consigned to realise, by a system of advance,
the means, on the part of the manufacturers, of carrying on
manufactures and keeping their workmen employed--( Hear.)
He had a circular in his hand, on the information contained in
. which he should prefer the House to rest, rather' than on any
statement of his own. It was issued in January last, by an
individual who differed from him (Mr. Philips) in politics—
a large commission agent in the town of Manchester. If the
House wished he would give the gentleman's name.—
(Cries of " Oh, oh," and " No, No.") The do-
cument he alluded to mentioned the severe losses
arising to spinners and manufacturers from their present
position. Few were able to work their establishments so as
to have common interest on the capital invested; others,
hoping that they might yet be able to obtain a sufficient re-
turn for their outlay, were contracting engagements which
must, in case of any disappointment to thir expectations,
end in their ruin. It was proved, that in Man-
chester, and six other towns in its neighbourhood,
there were about sixty-three mills entirely at a
stand from bankruptcy and other causes. The circular went
on to state that the amount of exports was greater at this pes
riod than during any former years; that the increase in the
exports did not arise from any increased demand in the foreign
markets, but the manufacturers were compelled to force his
goods into the market at ruinously low prices to obtain the
means of carrying on their business. That was a
fair statement of the case of the manufacturers.
The Right Hon. Baronet, the Secretary of State for the Home
Department, was pleased the other night to read to the House
a statement of the number of mills and cotton factories, accord-
ing to the return of a factory inspector, which were built since
the year 1839. There must have been some mistike in the
statement of the Right Hon. Baronet, namely, that 91 mills
were built since that year. That was impossible, Those mills
must have been built in 1836 and 1837, and the machinery
added in 1839, anti brought into full operation in the same
year. The evils attendant on the banking system he (Mr.
Philips) would not attempt to deny; but befbre he pro-
ceeded to observe on that subject, he won't' refer to the state-
ment which he had been just alluding to. He (Mr. Philips),
shortly after the late change in the Ministry, applied to
the Right Honourable Baronet to have a return from
the factory inspector of the total number of fac-
tories in operation ; dividing those working full time,
from those working short time, and , both from those
that were closed. The Right Hon. Haronet refused to
grant him that return, on the ground that those mills
were in full operation at the time the return was 4h-i
be only working short time layn
the period the me' *
laid on the table of the House, and those urn would be
might have become in full operat;T;o and that, consequently,
.o partially employed
no return could give informs'. -
New he (Mr. Philios, ...ion of the actual state of the trade.
as the Right •-was as anxious to possess that document
ofLion. Baronet was averse to lay it upon the table
douse. It appeared, however, that in the ninety-one
mills built in that district, 16,000 persons had been employed,
and ought not those to be as much objects of their solicitude as
if they were employed as agricultural labourers? But with
respect to the banking system, he (Mr. Philips) had
himself deprecated it in the year 18,35. He spoke his
mind on the subject to his constituents in the year 1836.
He had been then the more alarmed as his constituents aid
not seem to have any apprehension on the matter. He con-
fessed, however, that at the present time his opinions had
undergone a considerable modification with respect to over-
trading and over-speculation. He had been informed by per-
sons engaged in trade, that in the years 1835 and 1836, in
almost every transaction they had with other parties, every
account was paid them in Bank of England notes. They were not
on that account chargeable with over-speculation or of fostering
over-trading, because he should like to know the farmer who,
if offered Bank of England notes for wheat he brought into
the market, would think that, in accepting them, he was en-
couraging over-speculation ?—( Cries of " Divide, divide,"
" Order, order.") He must say, that although he thought
they were suffering now from diminished consumption, as they
had hitherto suffered from over-speculation, the people of this
country were only anxious to obtain an exchange of their own
productions for the articles which they needed ; they had no
desire to see any injury inflicted upon the landed interest—
they only wished to see that interest fairly promoted
and encouraged, but not by legislative protection,
such as was now sought to be kept up. He had
heard with great regret from the Honourable Member for
Bradford, some expressions, which he thought unworthy of
that Hon. Gentleman. The Hon. Gentleman hail talked of
the " drum ecclesiastic" having been beaten in connection
with the Anti-Corn law movement.—( Hear from the Ministerial
benches.) That expression was used with reference to the
efforts of the dissenting clergy of this country; and he thought
the Hon. Gentleman had gone far to injure himself in the esti-
mation of a large body of persons, whose good opinion he (Mr.
M. Phillips) considered. it no slight honour to enjoy. He
hoped the Hon. Gentleman would at some future period ackrow-
ledge that his expressions were hasty, and that they were not
justified by the circumstances, and that they had done no-
thing derogatory to their sacred character. He had also to
complain of the Hon. Member for Pontefract or, the same sub-
ject. The Hon. Member said the clergy of the Eats.

Llished Chure-
he- _.had annt ilia:sr:elves by
joining in the ere-. Was it a degreditlon fir a clergyman to
sympathise with his flock ?—( Ilesr, hear) Was it deFeda-
tion to advocate what he believed mild remove the distreas
of the country ? Ile was far from thinking that any man
degraded himself by canting forward to assist the suffering and
starving people.—(Cries of
.. Divide, divide," " Question.
question.") he manufacturers had feline in for their share of
abuse ; now he did not pretend to say that the manufaeturers
were cast in a different mould &rl others; he did not mean to say
that they would not find sordi 1 indiejtlitals amongst maustfae-
turers as well as in every other class of society; but he would
oak, whether manufacturers were Tess distinguished for the
honour- of their transactions; aye. sett for the regularity of
those transactions, than any other pertierm of the etnninunity ?
Ile would ask, whether they were less regardful of the interests,
tile welfare, and the comfort of the poorer classes, or whether
they aupperted institutions, established for their benefit,
with a liberal hand?—(Hear, Ilene) He would ask
sswhe-
ther, among manufacturers. they ever met w ith indivi-
duals, who, a spendthrifts, denreyal their property,
and turned others adrift in corns-ten-nee, and then called teem-
s lees the farmers' friend? That, hew- ver, was not the-proper
mode of arguing the questicrt Many unnecesqs y"espersisimv
hail been east upon the manufantursrs. He steod th e
justify that (-lass, no; to error: e: ii they w enssnore tir.e ,_ t o
a.n mo,e
r-
tals, but to deny that those zvp:;-,ism3 e-erehoene out by ir
facts.—(Criesof " Hear, heir.") Par Leen wishing to
retaliate, he would be glad to see our memiitry gentlemen carrying
out iroprovem. n's on their estates, and he trusted that a better
understanding would yet exist b. tw c
een the two classes. rn
behalf of the manufact tiring class, lie hat to exprers his earnest
hope that the measure proposed he the Right Hen Baronetwas not the only one which he wood Der to the country. -
it were, it would be a bitter disepi oietraent of their hepes.—
f
( Hear, hear.) They looked to him fir something, more than
the mere shadow of a measure of relist. In giving his support
to the motion of his Honourable Friend, he was perfectly re-
nardless of its effect upon any pm optrty which he now possessed
or might hereafter possess. Ile was determined to take the
straight path of duty, by voting for that without which he
believed the energies of the country would never be developed.
He felt confident that the day was not tar distant when the re-
peal of the Corn-laws must be granted. He earnestly enjoined
lion. Members to want it from their own csnvictions, and nut
to wait until it might be extracted f o:u their fears.—(Cries of
" Oh, oh.") Ile did not use that exersssion as a threat ; but
he warned Honourable Members that if they did not le-
gislate in a straight direction, the result would be
an attack, not upon the agricultural interest alone, but upon
every interest; he would avert it ire n them as he would avert
it from himself. Believing that the feelings of the people were
being alienated from that House, he earnestly entreated them
to adopt wise principles of legislation.
Sir ROBERT PEEL rose and said—When, Sir, I took an
opportunity of submitting to the IL use the proposal of her
Majesty's Government upon the s abject of the Corn-laws,
I felt it nay duty to state !bat 1 thought that the
extent to which the existing Corn-laws had operated
in producing that distress, the existence of which was
not denied, had been considerably eeaggerated. I said that I
thought that there were odor cites s in o,eration which might
be referred to as accounting, in a considerable degree, for the
distress which unfortunately existed. One of those causes I
stated to be, that there had been an undue stimulus to com-
mercial and manufacturing enterprise, in consequence of the
aid afforded by joint-stock banks and manufacturers acting
in concert. For that express on of opinion I have been
called to account by many Honourable Gentlemen who
have taken a part in t his debate. I have been told that
this doctrine of oversprodue•ion, of undue speculation, is ri-
diatdous. It was with some satisfaction that I heard the
Hon. Gentleman, whome attention hss been specially directed
to such matters, and who represents the town of Alanchester,
the great seat of the cotton maeuneeure, cenfirn ing, to the
fullest extent, the statement which I made, and admitting tLat
to that system of joint-stock banks, to that unnecessary and un-
natural stimulus to manufacturing reeculatisn, a considerable
portion of the present distress was attributable. ( Hear,
hear.) Sir, the Honourable Genii. man naturally enough
vindicates his ewe constituents Ide not attach aby blame to
• them : that is not the question. It may Le that there was an
lover-issue of Bank of England toren, but that question I will
rot discuss. All I say is, that there is sufficient to
.justify me
in not partaking the despair and despondence which prevail,
when I have pointed out one cause of distress, which by
htiniely precaution might have been avoided, and when I am
confirmed in that by the rap ricnrc and practical
knowledge of the Honourable Aleinher. I said also that I
thought the diminution of our experts to the United States,
might be accounted for by the disart angement of the monetary
system of that country. Here leo I have had the Honour-
able Member to confirm my view. Ile most expressly says
that, however our own moiansry system may have been.de-
ranged, either the same or other causes have operated with
greater force in the United States, and that the derangement
of tlee market of the United States, must neeesserily have
operated injuriously to our manuracturee.—( Hear, hear.)
Sir, if I may estimate the extent, by the amount
of the diminution of exports, it must be considerable.
I find, Sir, that in the year 1839 the declared value of our ex-
ports to the United States remember, not the official
valise, but the declared va.'ue of the chief articles
of British manufactures, woellens, cottons, silks, hard-
ware, cutlery, earthenware, &c., amounted to 7,585,00 a ;
in 1840 the declared value amounted to 8,839,000/.,
while in 1841, the declared value of our exports
to the United Stites of America had fallen from 8.839,000/.,
which it had been the preceding :,eer, to 5,200,000/.—( Hear,
hear.) I know that it may be sail !het time diminished export*
to America was more than eampensated by the in-
crease of our exports to other parts of the world.
But, Sir, is it not evident, that hewever mush our exports
may have increased in other parts of the world, the houses en-
gaged in the American trade mu t have suffered extreme de-
pression, that they must have experienced great difficulties, and
some of them have been plunged into extreme distress.
in consequence of the sudden interruption hi their commercial
dealings with their usual cu,netiet ?—( Hear, hear.) 1 said
that the disturbance of our arnica' le relations with China, by
diminishing our exports to that country, I -considered *,-0 be
another cause of the meti.ting ids re..s. The Hon. o.,iitlernan
the Member for Paisley defers wish rise, to that point,
anti his is a high ati'lmti'y t n such a subject. The
Hon. Gentleman, if I inirlestw,il him right, stated the
other evening, that the total au, icd of our exports to China
hail increased. I find from the ailici returns that the amount
of our direct exports to Chita Sieve undergone a diminution
within the last two years, and possibly the diminution
tray have led me to overstate the amount, and to attribute
more to that cause than eau be faidy attributed to it in
producing- the distress under \Odell we are at present labour-
ing-. With respect to our present t xports to China, the dimi-
nution in them is considerable. Ia 1839 the direct exports to
China amounted to 1n201,85.2/. ; in 1840 they had fallen to
£51,000/, and in 1841 they hal faleri to 52-1,000/. At the
same time the Hon. Gentleman says that, although there has
been a diminution of our direct respites to China, there has
been an increase in our ins'irect exports mere than commensu-
rate to that diminution. I think the Hon. Gentlemen meg-
tioned Singapore.
Mr. HASTIE—And time Fact
Sir R. PEEL.—.As to the East Indies, I arms not prepared
to state the amount; but I will take the amount of the aggre-
gate exports to Singapore and Chioa together. In 1839 the
amount of our exports to Singapore and China together amounted
to 1,582,030/. ; in 1841 it had diminished
to 1,211.000/
that is taking the aggregate of Singapore and China together, s.cs that nut only does there appear to have been a falling off in the
amount of our direct exports to China, but in our exports to
China and Singapore taken together, or, I may have overstated
the amount of that diminution; but I think that the Hon. Gentle-
men can be hardly correct in saying, that in 1840 and 1841,
there had been an increase in the amount of those exports. How-
ever, the Honourable Gentleman from his situation, is cer-
tainly a high authority on the point, and I certainly am its..
cline;! to pay great deference to his opinion ort the
subject.--( Hear, hear.) I protest at the same thme—.
a doctrine which I know to he very unpalatable in several
quarters, but a doctrine which I felt it to be my imperious
duty explicitly to state—that the prejudicial effect of the Corn-
laws on manufactures in producin the present distress, had
been considerably overated. Sir, I am bound to say that
finding lion. Gentlemen oho were entitled to be considered as
authorities on that subject, I have scconsidered that opinion.
but I can see no reason for alteting it. Sir, I should be un-
principled and unwiseif 1 attempted. in the slightest degree, to
underrate theirnportatine of m .nufact ores. I believe the prosperity
of the manufacturleor interest is e,ential to the well-being of
the country-.,—( Loud cheers.) When 1 occupied a place -on
the other side of the House I often stated an opinion, which 1
know some of my friends heard with a'arna, as to the importance
of manufactures to agricultural prosperity.—(Cheers.) Ihave
always maintained that opinion, and it cannot be said that I
have now newly taken it up es a Minister of the Crown.
I have always maintained, and have never hesitated to avow.
my opinion that the prosperity of manufactures was of more
importance to agriculture than any e‘stem of Corn-laws—
(Loud cheers) —and in proposing- aim alteration in the Corn-
laws, as a Minister of the Crown, I am riot now stating that
opinion for the first time.—( Hear, hear, and cheers. ) On
looking over the documents which have been laid on the
table of the House in relation to this subject, I feel convinced that
I am right in stating that the prejudicial operation of the Corn..
laws on our cotton manufacture has been greatly overrated.
The effect of the Corn-laws in raising the price of food in this
country has been stated to be that of disabling us from com-
peting with foreign countries. Formerly the Hon. Gentleman,
who may be considered as the great champion of this question,
used to say time exports of our manufectured goe-.'..s had conti-
nually diminished year after year, in corisequ,7-nee of the greater
cheapness of food in countries competing with us, and they
would continue to diminish, unless "ee were enabled to pro-
cure food as cheaply as our
—( Hear.) Such was
the statement made by the ;lon. Gentlemen in former times,
but now the Han. Gen::iernen discovers that during the last
two years no "xA^.rts had increased—t llear, hear)--and now
the Hon, "e'...milernan turns round anal ,ays, My opinions have
nvidergor.e a change, and I consider the increased exports of
our -cotton manufacture as a proof of its failure.
Mr. M. PHILIPS —The increase has only been within
the last two years.
Sir H. PEEL—Yes, but if you have greatly increased
exports, although the profits of the manufacturer may have
been diminished--
Mr. M. PHILIPS—There have been no profits at all.
Sir R. PEEL—Still what becomes of the danger of foreign
competition? You now manufacture so cheap, that lif the
increase of your manufacturing exports be not a test of manu-
facturing prosperity, but have been accompanied by a decrease
in your profits, yet still the price of f..od in this country has
not prevented you from overpowering your manufacturing
competitors. Notwithstanding the prise of corn in this country,
you have been enabled to undernal all your foreign
( Loud cries of " No, no.") You have been enabled to increase
your exports.—( Tory cheers.) 1 have been a Member of this
House for thirty years, and it certainly is a nee
doctrine to hear that an increase of exports has
done no good to any one.—( Cheer: and laughter.)
may have been worked without profit, because.
I will not take the case only of the old mills. I know it may
be said that they
it is better to use machinery than to keep it idle. But haw
can you account for toe building of new mills, if the profits of
manufacturers be so materially lessened? Since PM ninety
new mills have been built, not in the whole kingdom, but only
in one particular district, which cane under the notice of Mr.
Horner within thelast two years. I say they began building these
mills before the commencement of that period; if no profit is maids
and they are worked at a loss, it would surely be better that
the mills should remain unoccupied than to begin working theta
with a certainty of incurring foe.. (The Right lion,
Baronet then read an extract from Mr. Horner's Report,
from which it appeared that in the district under
his (Mr. Horner's) inspection there 1112.1 been built since the
Ist of January, 1839, 91 new mid, employing a power equal to
3,350 horses.) But then it is remarked, true the exports have
increased, but the reason is the home consumption has fallen of
on account of the dearness of provisions, that the demand at
home for manufactured goods heving decreased, it is oserceese4rir
to dispose of the goods in some mannor, and thereto. 1,91.
distress fruit
of deep distress in the manufacturing districts—efareest severely.
have been sent abroad. It is impossible to dispute the existences
which the manufacturing interest, have s,uiff"ces,
i the cotteo
I believe I am right in saying, that. of
tn reatest instances of
manufacture suffers the greatest;
foundg existing in those,
districts
distress tihnatutaievhe
prejudicial prevailed
operation
po,siti?it I have taken, that,V4,
I`..ltatige in the
exaggerated, I was oblieed from.
Now, wishinir to justifyiatte,tne„.
has been unduly
operation of
exeathe statement' I did, that I 4'
a sense of duty to m
cotton is
d make
expectation that in a could not
itilan't.ecilltieeitmanufacture. —( Hear.)
e ndanv sud would be fon s da n, any Ira di
Corn-laws
f for that
distress.
' e ate, Or any
extensive Tele Ihi LxPlarta leave b •
e been entertain any confident