The Sun.
London, England, 1820-06-28 00:00:00

PARLIAMENT,

HOUSE OF LORDS, TUESO4Y, JUNK 27.
The LORD CHANCEL/I.OR attended about tour
o'clock, and after prayers, their Lordships ad-
journed till Sve &dock, when the House, re-

isumed.
Mr. Irving, from. the Cuslone,Hoose, presented
a variety of Conimerci'al Accounts, in pursuance
of recent orders of the -House ; • ,ch were or-
dered to be winter!.
Me, Firdayson, from the Admiralty ()dice, pre-
-sewed ate account the ntones anti number
j 40! and tonnage.,-- nett tee Cominiseion.,
in his Msjesey's yardseundeet (pair, &c. -in con-
seretieeee of en Addreseetsteehe House.
A number:el Bills," .chietle private and local,
were. brOoght op fulni the Commons, by Mr. S.
*Wortley, Sir N. •Colthurse. Cot. Wodehousee and.
other Members ; \eiliichevere read the first thne.
The Earl of DrAptioomeee gave notice of
_intention to move elle second reeding of the leish
Tenement Recovery, Bill to-mot row.
THE QUEEN.
- Earl Gael' asked a Noble lied if any thing had
'occurred since they had last spoken 014 the sub-
ject, which would go to prevent the necessity of
.the Committee sitting to-morrow for the pin-
,posed Secret Inquiry. It that step were not
Ike:tied necessary, he would be most happy to
waive his intended motion of that evening:
The Bail of LIVERPOOL, said, he bed no diffi-
culty whatever to answer the Noble Lord's ques-
tion. Having given his best attention to the ar-
guments which were urged at the Bar in support
'of the application of the Il)ustrious Personege, he
*load deemed it advisable to propose that 24 hours
should be allowed for consideration on the part
of the House, whether or not what was advancer!
Afforded sufficient ground for *dieting the course
-of their proceeding, as resolved upon by the
House,. And be had to state, that after the fol. •
lestconsideretiou he could give it, he had no'dif-
-ficult ye after referring to the course of their Lord-
ships' proceeding: upon other occasions, es tar as
those could be analogous, in saying that be was
decidedly of opinion that the course their Lord-
hips had thongier proper to adopt was proper and
`fitting for the ends Of justice ; and %vitt) reference
to all the considerations of the cio•e. As long as
hopes could be etorrtairied of an agreement,with-
Vol the necessity of lecturing to the proceedings
its sitting was from time to time
postponed ; but now as these were termineted,
the proceeding which their Lordships had delibe-
teately resolved- upon could too in common justice
be avoided. therefore, the Noble Lord had
any objections to offer, the present was the
regular time, and lie should not trouble their
•Lotefships with any farther •observatiouseat
present, but reserve what he had to offer on the
subject in the way of-answer to the Noble Earl."
GRVY said, he had rather expected the
Noble Earl would have stated his reasons, in the.
first instance, for proposing that their Lordships
should return to their suspended procedure of the
Secret Committee. The paaticuler course the
Noble Earl now proposed appeared, he thOught,
to savour of diet vaccillating yet precipitous prin-
ciple which had guided thecoadoct at his Mejes-
iy's Government throughout the whole of this
nnhanpy He had recently the choice of
pursuing a course more consonant to the princi-
ples of sound policy and of strict justice. The
case latteriy assumed an altered character, and
there was consequently an alteration in the cir-
comstances upon which they, were now called
upon to consider the whole question. The Noble
Earl had at first admitted-there were no sufficient
precedents for the present case, that there was err
casesufficiently.analogous ; but as far as simili-
tude could obtain, the proposed course was the
most consonant to the course of general Parlia-
mentaly proceeding. Under what circumstance-3
did the Queen stand with respect to the proceed-
ing as proposed ? The examinations were to be
ex-pane. -A secret examination of the case- rosy
go directly to affect her Majesty's character and.
honour; where none were permitted to attend
on her behalf ; and, above all, it was to be con;
entered that their Lordships may, it was more
than possible, be called upon ultimately to exer-
.cise their judicial functions upon -the case. The
.courseproposed, he insisted, was hostile to the
plainest. ptiociples of -justice. The result of the
proceeding proposed would uoavoidebly produce
such a bias, or the suspicion of such a ti 4,5., in the
public opinion, as would militate greatly in that
respect against the character or estimation of their
Lordships' decision, in the event of the case
coming judicially before that House ; he meet
object against the principle of their acting in con-
fidence, upon the character 6.1 tiny individual per-
son, however high in estimation. The Noble
.Lord on the Woolsack had saint on a former night,
that in such a case as that supposed of her Majesty,
she could not be prosecuted on a charge of High
Tieawri. With all deference however to- _the
tateuts and the learning of that eminent person,
there were opinions whicit he held in as high es•
lineation as those of the Noble Lord, which had
a d,fferent tendency. In ibis point of view, he
deemed it unnecessary to enter into any subtle (Ilse
tinclions. If the Illustrious Person were really
guilty of the immoral or dissolute conduct which
seemed to be imputed to her, though she may
not be amenable tor-the high. offence alluded to,
yet she may be- tuiworthy to be placed at the
head of female society, or to- sit upon tine
Throne of the realm if found guilty of other
offences, and which may come judicially under
their Lordships' consideration. How then, he
would again ask, could ti:ey, consistently with the
' dictates of honour or of justice, erect a Secret
Committee from -amOng themselves to sit in pre-
vious intittiry ? and n hich • would go abroad
with all publicity., to the prejudice of the
character of the individual they- may have to
try From the votes of the other House they
saw they bad. suspended their proceedings in
Ril anterior stage. On the contrary, their
Lordships bought proper to admit of no de-
lay.. however, togociations %vete suffered to take
place, and edjotaremetits followed ;adjournments
' and mostly upon the express principle of waiting
for the decision of the other. House. , How that
House con ic! originate a judicial proceeding he
Was at a loss to know, and he believed it would

net be denied, that tire only tribunal competent
to entertain such charges was their Lordships'
House. Every consideration which be could
imagine went apinst the institution of a Secret
Committee. Ot late years," such modes of pro..
eeeding were ft equent, and. siewed with increased
odittiu. They ought to be, particularly "anxious
that al.--fainst Unit' first proceeding .no suspicion
c0441+1,-acrd-th ey_ sh mad .bc -cant ions. with re- •
ference to the character, honour, or dignity of
the House, not to adopt any proceeding --so ob-
noxious to :general disgust and suspicion.. Ot
the case of his Majesty individually he knew no-
thing. He spoke met vly as a Member of.one
'Luise of radian/ern, It was no part y question. '
fli:'Wolyaontebded- for the general adinit(istralion
of justice. No man could he more against yield• :
iog to clamour than himself. But When the public..
voice proceeded Irota the .best priaciples.of na-
ture', compassion, generosity, or hayed of op-'
pression, he thought it eutitied to no
,small
weight. He then adverted to what took place
in the other Honse,.when he said the Minister Of
the Crown himself proposed a proceeding which
almost went to an abandonment of the Secret
Committee ; and if this House should persevere
in that obnoxious procedure, it would form an
invidious contrast to the conduct of the other
House... This would place the conduct of their
Lordships!. House in the more disadvantageous
light, as the ivflueuce of the Crown was sop•
posed to be greater than in the other House.—
Were they prepared to meet' the attendant public
odium—the execrations of their tellow.subiects'--
and, after all, could the Noble Lord spew any
superior adventa,ge which won't' result nom per-
sisting in proceeding ,with-this COMMitteer' Were
he a Mtnnber of it, be would not willingly hear
a single paper read, and lie would require per-
sonal examination and inquiry before be should
attach the least credit to it. But ,after all what
was proposed was gone throngh, there must, on
the vie'c the Noble Lords took of the case, be a
second trial ; and instead of accelerating the
case, the sitting of the, Committee would only
produce delay. He then adverted
_to the offiCes
and- descriptions .of the component Members of
the ComMitiee, and Mien aske!l, tivOuld not a re-
hurt prOceeding from such rippear to be any other
than the teport of IN/linktets themselves ?' Again,
'. he said they should be careful to place all their
proceedings above even the chance of attached
suspicion ; and he must, contend that the mo're
simple and direct wlty was by open judicial in.-
quit y, and by directly proceeding upon the re-
sponsibility of Mit.isters ; or it may be done by
a measure partly Legislative and partly Judicial;
they sh odd stodournenly adopt a cause more con-
sonant to the principle arid practice of strict
,law
slid justice. The conduct of Miuisrers through-
out the thole of the business wri? open to much
Censure, such in fact as to bring ate best interests
of the Country and the honour of the Crown into
peril. I vistead of delaying, what he reconimend-
ed wonlas, preclude delay ;, for the Committee
would be as a preliminary to a proceeding which
would probably last for months. He then ani-
-madverted on the conduct of Ministers on'the oc-
casion, and alleged-their object .was to throw the
responsibility from their ()an on the shoulders of
is Sect et Conon;ttee, and in effeet•to turn over the
,duties of the Executive Government to Valhi*.
mentary Committees ; their conduct was guid-
ed by no fixed or s'eady principle; they suffered
the vessel of the State to sail without pilot or
guide, to be btaletted about by the adverse winds
or conflicting wavesr-- . .

-" Qum dun) sineleg-e geruntnr;
Aspera crescit ltyeins; omnique e parte
gerunt venti ; frelaque indignantia misecut.
Ipse paret; nec se, qui sit status, ipso latetur
Seiie mtis rector; nec quid jubeatve, vetetve :
'Lima to.tli moles; totatine potcntior arte est."

He then adverted to the language held by a lead-
ing Minister in the other House of Parliament,
highly panegyrical of the moral character and ac-
complishments of her Majesty, which he seems.tl
to think had very little influence on the conduct
of his colleagues in treating that illuerrions per-
sonage—a personage who now. came to the Bar
of their. Lordships as a suppliant ; though in the
course Of what Was elicited, it appeared they would
have couceded every thing, **.it: she would be good
enough to go away," with the exception of re-
storing irer name to the Liturgy ! The question
was now, he repeated, in an altered situation ;
and so variable was-the conduct of Ministers, that
at one time it formed a striking contrast to what
it. was at another. After animadverting further
on these considerations, he contended Ministers
had placed the Houses in such a way with respect
to the unhappy business in question, that they
found_ it almost impossible to- extricate them-
selv9s ; at least by any other way than the adop-
tion of those rinciples for the regulation of their
conduct to which he had referred. The Noble
Earl concluded by moving, " That the order fur
the Sitting of the Committee be discharged."
The Earl of LivettrooL rose a id said, that at
the beginning of the Noble Lord's speech he was
led to.stippose that li' meant to argue the question
on legal and consti'utional principles, and was by
no means inclined to consider it as a party rules-
lion, but as one between that House and the Il-
lustrious Individual so much referred to. He was,
however, not a little surprised as lie went on, to
find that the speech contained a most violent per-
sonal and inflammatory attack upon his Majesty's
Government. An attack which be was prepared
to repel. The Noble Lord had Made a charge of
vaccillation against the-conduct of Government,
and asserted its incapability to steer the vessel of
the State through the conflicting storms which
assailed it. 'He was, howeser, prepared to be
judged by the House, by the Coontry, and by
the acts of himself. and his colleagues in office
for the last eight years ; by these and_ their
fruits be would be judged, confident that they
would prove a striking contrast to the coudut t
and measures of the Noble Lords, who, while
in office lied ruined and degraded the couutty,
and by tlTeir counsels led it to a state which would
have proved destructive, bad it not escaped such
imminent danger by a happy change in the Coun-
cils of the Gaverinnent ; and in those considera-
tions be was at any time willing to be tried by
the House and the Courtly. Proceeding to a
view of the subject regularly before the House,
the Noble Minister said he bad no diffieully
explaining :he whole of the conduct of hi* Ala-

jetty's Government, an the principles upon which I
it acted. He meant not in discussing the genuine
merits of the case to quibble, as the Noble fiord
had said, upon words, but he would contend', as
he was sole, not only,a great proportion of their
Lorrrips, hut of the public at large, tvoniti feel
that•theyhad acted
i...4,lthis nofortuirate-.cese on
of proatibiogadditional
rt *l>i ,e 1) d
ierioltniloacies, v/iF;N oteThatiAlatCil I'o'rre4kot •
a greater inconvenience. Upon that broad grotool,
the measures and course adopted, he must say,
were just and expedient, ,and he really believe!'
they were so eat imateil by 9-10ths of the popula-
tion of the country. Was there any alternative
between the treating of her Majesty with all the
homage and respect due to the Queen of England,
and the way'in which they had acted? They had
the grounds cif an accusation against her conduct,
and the v-rry next day after her arrival it was
deemed advisable to institute proceedings' in con-
seeptence ie both ['louses of Parliament. In an-
w her place, the principle (hat governed the mea-
sores taken FO avert the necessity of pioceeding
to extremities, and its decision, was procrasti-
nated ; they were willing to adopt any course
short of retracting the charges', in order to pre-
clude the necessity of. the close inquiry. Upon
this prineiele they bad acted, and be would ask
what prouif of vaceillating did that show and he
,most deny the doctrine of the Noble Earl, that it
her M.,irsty were guilty, a long investigation be-
fore Parliam,nt would be an inconvenience, and
derogatory to the interests of the Country and
the honour of the Crown; but when the Illus-
trious Personage came and braved inquiry,
Mieisteis if they withdrew
.from the charge,
would act in a manner far more derogatory
to the honour of the Crown and the inte-
rests of the Country. He trusted the House
at large would do his Majesty's Ministers the jus-
tice to believe they were really desirous to avoid
the Inquiry ; bet if, from the Conduct of others,
it. were forced' upon them, it was their ditty not
to shrink from it. The accusation divided itself
into two branches : the principal charge could not
he made the ground of criminal procedure; nod
he-was prepaied to argue that point, if necessary,
with the Noble Lord. The opinions he had given
upon that head were not only given upon the
high authority of his Noble Friend upon the
Wnolsack, hut he had consulted other U-gal Au-
thorities upon the subject, and he could submit to
any Legal Authority in the Kingdom. The sia-
rore'of Edward I) L ordained that adultery with
the King's wife, or with the wife of the Heir Ap-
pareto, or King's eldest son, was high treason,-
and on the petit of those females where their con-
sent was fairly presumed. Such an interpretation
was put on the Act where at'iy subject (Witte realm
was concerned-; but. in tlae instance, of a foreigner
the case was partly different, the charge of high
tteasou could not lie. against him, and where
there were no principal, the other offending
party could not 'be deemed liable to the penal-
ties of treason. Adultery, generally speaking,
wets held to be a civil injury, but not a crime.
Under such eirctort,stances, therefore, could
charge of miaderneanour be preferred in a Court
below There was no difference as to the
parties, but in the magnitude of the offence. That
which was not a crime by law, could not be tried
by any of the Tribunals in this country.; and they
I •
had no right, to create a crime for the occasion.---
lte; ;otily'conise, therefore, whieh it- was pus- -
sible for Ministers to adopt under such circuit)...
stances, was for a proceeding for a Bill of Divorce,
or by a Bill of Pains and Penalties, and it then
catne to the point, its which House such proceed-
ings could more properly originate, and he be.;.
lieved there could be, no doubt as to the propriety
of its originating in their Lordships' Houle, more'
especially with reference to its being a legislative
proceeding. He'had looked anxiously with re-
spect to- the cases of Bills of Pains and Penalties,
and there was no instance of any one where some
previous irquiry had not taken place. He would
ask, therefore, whet her it was fitting that their,
Lordships'- House- should entertain Atte!) a Bill
without some previous inquiry, or without some
authority of their own to proceed upon ? Titers
should be some intervening authority betwixt the
Ministers of the Crown and- the Houses of Par-
liament in such a case. A proceeding of im-
peachment, it was stated, was not likely to arise
out of such a case as that in question. Drawing
to a conclusion, after he bad discussed the above
points, with his accustomed force, talent, and
perspicuity, the Noble Minister contended there
were no just grounds laid for complying with the
prayer of the petition.' The great remaining
question was, whether the case was fitting to be
proceeded with, or whether it would not he pre-
ferably in their Lordships' House, and with snore
preliminary inquiry ? ,With respect to clamorous
objections against Secret Committees, he trusted
no serious argument would be founded upon
those, or that they would stiffer themselves to be
drawn from the right line of their duty by any
such considerations ; and he must think that no
solid Objection could be laid againsta.tommittee
composed of characters so nuimpeuchable in every
respect as those which were selected by their
Lordships for the present important- occasion.—
He hoped the House would not be deterred by
' faction---hy prejedice—by any thing that might
occur out of doors, front calmly proceeding to the
impartial discharge of their duty. They were to
consider whether the course now proposed was
consonant to the practice of Palliament, 11,they
thought it unparliamentary—if they thought it
,harsh towards her 'Majes'y, then let them vote.
for the motion of the Noble Earl,' The House
had consented to certain delays in the hope of
seeing an accommodation effected, bur all at-
- tempts to bring this about having failed, they had
now only to proceed to the 'investigation of the
Papers. They were to take that course which
was most analogous to that which had been taken
on former occasions, and-which was best fitted to
procure im
paitialjustice.`. Referring the Papers
which had been bronglii down to a Secret Com-
mittee of their Lordships, it was not for the pur-
pose of trying any individual, but merely to de-.
teratine,aehether any species of proceeding what-
ever should take place. The party concerned
would afterwards have the full ,benefit of ,e public
trial, it tar.het proceediugs should be determined
.upon by the Committee, with every. opportunity
of iettutting the teiderice that 'Ili& be broakiht

to support any charge preferred against her.--•
This their Lordships would see was the true clot,
racier of the proceedings now' recommended by
Ministers, and he had only to call upon them to
act by it according to whahilley conceived to be
their duty. k -.
.Lord E !NENA had voted in tleit'T instance
I(sz theNkecret -COMMillec, but it% es inipossibla
fpr'Silm —ll6`tir'to AieUr'in tO•projeriity o? pro-
ceeding with the Inquirysinv Secret Committee:
He then proceeded to exprain the grounds oft
which he had given his former vote, and thenad-
veiling to the situation in which things stood at
present, said he had little expected (hot the cots'
sideratiou of the question would take the tarn
that it had. A ResOlation had been passed in the
other Hotiae, to Which he had a right to refer,
by which the Queen, so. far from being regarded
as criminal, had been recognized as eetitled to all
the jurisdictiim—not jut hidicrion
,but privileges.
which .they had attempted to take ' away, and
which they still persisted in eh:erupting to take
from her. He bad supposed that the Govern-.
merits had a charge against her which they were
prepared on their owo responsibility to bring be•
tore the House. Such, Irnwever, did not "weal'
to he the fact. Ministers were not disposed to
take so decided a step, thou ii they had not
' scrupled to advise that her Majesty's name should
be put out of the Liturgy. He doubted whether.
-under the 'Act of Unitotmity, they possessed .con-
stitutionally the power of reeommending, to the
Crown the omission of her name. His Lordehip
read over the Resolution of the House of Com-
mous, and argued that it was quite impossibic tor
tier Majesty to accede to the wish therein ex•
pressed, as,- if • she had done so, she would have
impeached her own innocence by sanctioning the
omission of her name in the Liturgy. Her
Majesty had since been heard by her Coun-
sel at their Lordships' Bar, and they had
heard her demand a public trial, and the full
recognition of her rights 'and privilegiss
Wilco the' business was first brought forward it
'appeared to -him that he had no duty to perfurte
but to vote that an inquiry into the Papers laid
before Parliament should take' place, in order to
determine whether or not any further proceeding •
was necessary. But he had now to consider wire' .
)her, consistently with his duty, he could vote for
an inquiry which it had been.deciared by a Reso'
lotion of the other House of Parliament (which
Resolution was assented to by Minis ere) could
not be other than derogatory to the Crown, and
injurious to the best interests of the COuntrys 14
was unwilling to be placed in the invidious siloa...
tion of a pioneer to Ministers, who thought 1)0;
per to hang back in the dear. They bad diacharg'
ed her name from the Litaoy,.and having door;
this, they ought to have brought forward their
charges 'against her Majesty, and afford-ed her,
a fair opportunity of rebutting them. The Queers
would now appear to be calumniated if denied tiro "
trial Which she bad demanded. No Secret Come
mittee could with propriety be resorted to in the
present state of things. They had gained a poi
from which, after the demand which bad beta
made on the part of her Majesty, they could not
recede without her consent.
The. LORD CHANCELLOR declared, that it 1143
long been his anxious wish to save the' count
from the evils inseparable from the inanity seleio
now became unavoidable. He then explained 4‘
• some length the grounds for the opinion he boa
given on a former occasion, that what had beet'
imputed to the Queen could. not amount to ui ig'a
Treason. Lie begged to state to their Lordshipso
and be wished that he bad a voice that torrid
make what hi was about to/say heard by 10
whole Country—he wiJlied his words could've/
' the ear of every individual from one extremityo
his Majesty's dominions to the other, while •b°
declared that it was a most abominable and -hT''
just reproach that haul been cast on his Majest.,:s
Government—(he spoke tor' himnself,•and he ~ye
sure that he might say as much for. his Colleagro
, in office) when, it was supposed that there 1"5,
ever any intention on the part of Ministers 1490:7
pose of this business by a Sectet Committee its
offensive sense of the word. tie did not thrio::
from 'responsibility, and every one of his MajetnY
Ministers was' with himself as responsible for Op
Bag which bad been biougbt down,- of which s
much had been said, as they could have beer) tai,
l
any Bill that they might have thought it circle
duty to introduce. When the conduct of tie
King or' Queen of this country was called in qdeot
Lion, something more than a mere 'question
to
Ministerial responsibility was involved. Mioiste
might be wrong, or they might be right ;ref
might .be applauded or they might be peinisheA ;*
but the country was placed in such a situation t
such a time, that the' responsibility of Mioisrfs...
became a matter of minor importance. fle 14 .
there as a Peer of Parliament. As an indivicusi
he had some knowledge of the papers which lis,
been brought down to the two Houses, bat' !,,,j,
Member of Parliament he. could have no knowle've
7 as
of them. Ile was of opinion that if the 140.1 b.
Were'not*to institute some inquiry before tine stilt,'
ject was brought forward in the House,•they 'Oise
surrender some of those functions which it scB9o.
'portant tothe.country that rarliument should cog,
finite It) exercise. He had seen in some of the "scot $
' papers that it had. been stated elsewhere °at
Bill of Attainder could not be originated ill of
House. To this he would reply that there v..tee
had occurred a greater mistake. He defend'"_clet
oalliitgeobitnit:nheaeltreogf,alrdSe
arse taCs(isiteninterirt Committee, a
and a Sctop
Committee, he would take upon himself t° (wit
protecea
to the Queen. But it was said that, her AP.lre a
did not choose that her affairs should go
bet.° 40
Cdir(rit,n tinti t tweeas.
.f
oSrhteb
etirut igtioi t,c((s)irrjj
seicdtert o.it
what, belt
rifili:0:::
to their conntry required from -them. lf,ol°o, It
her Majesty hail urged such an (shire"
te, its
should have felt himself called upon to 5" 'V,
the most respecttul terms that he could ose!valt:
he would recommend that such a coarses;..,ocet
be pursued in tier case, amid in t hat -ot every '4_o the
/who tv-asConsort of the Kingiot Englaochtfuet fts:
principle that her interests would be bespon9j
fended than they could 'be. ho the mere re e ,vpol a
bility of Ministers; He thought that Houterious
never be gush enough to, entertein so
_6 ioquill;
charge without instituting some .orevio"_ _
.00.,
' That those-who formed the Comnlitle'.l: eolisi
the Papers might be pretested stosi.;(.l 1)., •

Iti!red as
41 camel
44(
Will
If
a Res:
,14:"Ight j
stlould
re
Ile spoke
tQ ijolovv
teftYlo. b
"e.cess,
mere kll6
milting o
t 0,,,.
v, edit,
r. Jusii

ief.-11
dui-
eel by
zm to
to be