The Sun.
London, England, 1816-05-23 00:00:00

'ft ES.

Mr. Nr.wmAx, in a !speech wli ch 11,3.6
.
in m the Gallery, briefly set forth the eonvyntenres
of the )!.ysteni of collectinaithes iii kind;
anti concluded by moving ine the•appointment of
a Select Comniittee to take into consideration the
petitions on the table relative to 'l' ithes, to con-
sider of the expediency of substituting payineut
of tithes in money, liar payments in kind, for
•
period to be limited.
•Alr. Cuitwex seconded the motion. He eon—,
sidered the commntatiow of tithes .sttizgested
the motion would be productive of ino,t impOrt-
ant. benefit*: to the country., lie hul neyer.nret
With any person 'in the least acquainted •with the'
state of agricillture who had trot considered the 'pre-
sent sysigm .fone which it. wotild be most desirable
to retoem, Were Ilie change re( ommended ,
,take place, he did not t,iink less .would he paid
for tidies than was paid at pre,..ont ; Mitt the te.el-
ingsr of the parties interested in
would be spared that irritation to Which the e
no;‘, !....posed ; 412(1 this of itself want(' be no small
advantage "tti .the. country.... 1 here neeer was a
time when it wits more necesiafv to enconrage
the enitivator of. the Soil, and the iniportance of
,doptifig measures` that wthila have siieh a-teud--
ency 'oust in.oheious,toevery one who consider-
est the ett(qtrions debt the 'country had to_suti.tain,
and, the state of its increasing popuhtiorr. :Vcd-
ing that every pe,is;hie ,eneouogeiue'ut ottght to
be given, under existing eircutust tires, to the oil.'
tivutioo of the:soil ; he gate. the motion of Ilk So-
ontirable.Eriend his -warmest support, and should
be happy to see it lead to the' atibrtion of s.onie
general, nteaSore to correct the eyii which was at
present. the subject of-complaint:- '
Mr. SMITH Cantbridge) held the tight of
the Clergy to the Tithes, ‘etHvort for their wain-.
tettance to. be as stitirt4 as that or any Gentleman
to his freehold. jleiwas of opinion, that
of r4.4erting .the.eonsitteration tit' this itsjeet
any Committee, it would his bettor to submit it
to ,the collechettivhdont of the and TO •
a4lopt Ilie usual.mode.of,moving for knee t'o bring
iii a MIL to molter those alterations which niight
be thought expedient., .
Mr. Rost:. was of opinion :nothing • would .be
100{e liticly to excite-itgenerat alarm in they coon=
try, than the appointmento(t4,Comtnittea.to iii-
quire into thii subject, it their deliberation, Were
not.tiireeteti to' souk! portichLir 'p6irit 'or object:
Fie was against giving a Cominittee those gene-
pi:bpowet-s which were called lor'by the present
inotion. .-„

litrAND, _whet) he considtred the Admitted
importance of this question, than one of
giea.ter magnitude' could hardly be brought hefOre.
the House, and when he looked at the unhappy
iliftFretteo.- wl4ll disturbed' many pari3ites wider
the present syatein, thougbt it would'lee i sir itt its
to 11e regretted, if the present Motion sladUld. be
.
/JCl4:;l'.iVed ‘richOlit S owe intimat ion Liviog given by

Or RH
to Ott' Sitlijc4
iu'linn(l4ll fray, at .no dist .4 nt 'period. Thos ”rh
INA:iv:friendly to 3401 a thange-were mit-anihia'ted
by any feel:tugs of hostility towards tie f
They did 'hot wish for the adoption (if sst. ttf
which,,wouid improve the moralsot the coni
nity, and have the effect of Teaching the peo±ilo
to,look on the Religion 4 Establisitinerd'S with Fn-
crease4 veneration. It the motion wets t•kiec:e(l,
he trristed the debate raised.Optin it Would lead
his Majosty*S-3,linisters tti cc:insider (sr the pra‘sti-
cabili y ut bringing forward some tt eneral. anti
comprehensive measure On the stihjeet. • ,
"I'he CHANCELLOR of tin. E3,;(7ltEtiti ER WI ;111 016
illiportMleC. of the subject now under theconsi-
(krationol the House. He wasapare of the ca -
barrassoients now complainedof-under the exist i!ig
system, and of the more than CiMimon auxiet.r.,
with which .any change in t;tuse la ms teas regarded
xvhich had so long coot; a net! in force from ver
to ye,ir, and be might say frotn age to age.-
was far from wishitif,7 to appear (I,:irotis of tht:nw-
in4any obstacle in the of effecting aoami
cable adjustment of the ditif!reoces which tit lite..
sent subsisted between the Clergy and the ctilti-
vators of the Soil. He on the contrary etas of
:opinion the time of Parliament 'tould omit be I/ t-
to employed than in acting as mediator and ar-
bitrator between the ifarties, though he 'rat far
from entertaining;any very sanguine exiteotr.tion,
that the object itt vieee.,att amicable adj•l.te:ent,
woititt be likely to he attained by to the
present motiofi. He in fact tout ::el dub le it of
aoy. remedy that In;rlit be when he r,e-
-collected:lll.l%v many had been brr!!‘g h t 10,
ditierent pcniods,, all of Ivltich lid facie ;i. llu
should move an,iimendinent. to the inotich;,
after the first part of it, propose I o :t!hr,!ititte words
toe, what followed " to direct the I: ommitte(
to
ingnire into the expediency enablitvg the.ptO-
prietors of tithes to grant -least!s thereof, under
due regulations.'' Ile briefly set forth the reasons
which occurred to hinvict favorer of pursniht; silt
a- course, 'wlaeh he considered 'would scent(' the
property of the Clitir-ch, and would have the effect,
where the proprietor of the land let • it to an oc-
cupier lithe-free;- of causing a proportionate ad-
vance. On the rent, and would.rathee seem to mate
a change io the prOprietary 'of the lanxt, tktri
give any inmeaiate advant.3gelo•tlie.meni)ier',H,
lie then moved his amendment.

Sir W. Scorr [roped the uropnsition Of hi.; Ilight
Hon. Friend (the Chalicvllor of. the'Pxchet4 tv*L'
would, tend to allay that dissati4action
been tinjustly ex:cited on tl.e stib.le,A of tithts,tiad
*for that reason, find that alor:', should give it his
vote. Ile .hudietul With astonishment some of
those Publications on this snlije.ct, which had the
sanetion ofrespectable nartieS, mid which cc eia
received preminms from public ,lioarck and hi
thotight Omni most cont,emptible, as well for the
misteprescntations'of facts Which they contained.,
as for.their reasohiug, if the term might b,e applied
to 'such a comprisltion.,lThe. pliblication.*of Mr:
Middleton on a Survey of Middle Sex, and a 'work
which hall been rewarded with a.'premium froth 'a,
TU-ovincial. Society for etirouraght AgricultUre
Bath and in the' West of I'..2rlicid. he mentioned as
coming under th ipt kin , lie pronounced
animated panegyrie th.C,lct-s; yvt Pplv.hu)ci
contebfled "It "Wa•i prOV,' i itoni the proceedlogs irx
the Courts oF .r.
totes on the .sonject titit.q Rte, that The twit-
lav ceneraliy not witlf the Clergy, lout with. t:iitse
who resisted .parment ni the ,tita;.'s demalple(l,
thonglOthiit tifere might .not. be .otue
tie }lid not pr'it»r• to The propos.tiHtt tit
the lioth GEOkon•,,,n to tc r this •tibieet !z-vner:al.,
Iv•ton COtninit.e.c,‘'‘.as virtunlfy to in'opose to
open a shop, ,0r....,as the :more fasbiulable tetn't'

%% HS, a unifier, for the reception of 01i lily charges
iltit avarice., malice, or disappoiutnitlit mii;itt he
disposed to bring hit o it .tg,,y.!nyu• the C':etgy. ;If
such alt establishment Wit e fOriWd,itt Wollitt
lei+ce the House to w hAt. tvotthl be -the pro-
battle consequence. The- motion went, in stib-
staticey, to recommend that the-Clert y slopthl bt
deprived of the right of colltetirig their' ti• h ,s in
kind. This be objected to ;is tenth it 'to"
them from that solid grounifou whieli they had-
stood from'lii OA.
iii lii t u;i-
sent., Os I!•edid rather'reliii:totitly, to the inotioia
tits'amtnided bytthe•eltaneellor of the" ii.:*:cbeepter;
he held it to be a subject which •ileserved he roolA
writes consideration; and he as.Svilted to it only
it) the. hope that it might possibly teint to v,iirepitsit
thwieleelingsiortis he should rather -ay, those
prejudices which bail unfortunately elcisti;il,
• Lord CASTLiftEAGIi Coati riot giVe his assent
to any proposition that,regardeti the elaini of .the
Clergy to tithes tis less snertd-than any other s'pe-
eieß of property iu the con:dry' ; hot when orri»
po,,itioa like that of bis Right How Friend eas
brought forward, whirb hse iontersitiod
went to allow the proprietor's t• 11 *tithes nniker:
an arrangement tt hiell might beat
vatitageous to them, while it-tv“A Intric avreeable
to. others than thc'preseat sy3teia, have •
no objection to its (icing clitertainti). .safe'.
pi:rolls of the.property of the Chnreb, bad
been so: long maintuincil,, °tight. ii t_ now 'to. 'be:
given up. •He bad always found gvc3t-sliffieulfies
were in the way of - any pcinvinetit lueoMire rat
connuottition,- hut a temporary arrtnigitiren't
that suggested by bis- flight k-leo. had '
the same-obstaclo to get,. ovir., Tite
parties, he thought, would feel thent;,elYes not.
notify, interested in 'r.litoVing any difficulties that.
miglit he in the way oft such ;111 strrao,,iptttileitt...
which; if tbeClerAy and the, Proprietinyi of the
Liunrcould, in, inigirt, he proluetiVe Of
grettesufvauttlges to both. Whether this Could be
L'irOtlt,Cd •WiA3 in: Ilk Opiiii,olt VI: fair, and • IcYgri t fit'e
sithj:Cot,,i4r-inquiry. At prestyht the ClN•gy
not the power granting ir-ises •of tithes. if
were_given to then ,:,he )(id itot.l,4,te timt very •
svt-',0115 evihrlOoltbarite litho it ; Lod even if any
;draw shonidltalte ,place,•it toot,' ocel is but for
tt firaiteil period, and email •not p,o-noniently affect
the property of,llle, Cirtirch... Toe ,a))ieet cooli
first y to a C9tontittee. It wo;)41
I:6'ore the 1:1,705tt,: by Wholll ,1 0111:10' i l i)r,s
viewed with a je;tioi.s ey', as t lilt ivi,sti,:ns •
wl.e.re property was,eolicerned.;
slat only., teas property a but that
higher comidrzratioo,, the religion of the Str,te,
was also iuterested. in, the decision which ail
liouse foigittcvme to.
• Mr. Sl' vtiNtt cottlitoce-no objection to the nu).

- ‘ Vtic•,..,l, ;Inlet,,(ie.l by the t

Hon. tietoteman (iii Chancellor of the Excite-
. 'xikivr); The Tithe Proprietor,: in eases of hank-
, If.olocy, ou,t,ht tti h:ive the snote remedy as the
Proprietor of the Latotl, and not be compelled, as
he WA, at present, to coine in -With all tht• other
Creditors. l.r,e thooghtsotne provisiou of this na.
to he
?Jr. \Valli EttaLL. 4'At4., the questiod. proposed
'to be considered by the,Commitice was, whether
'the Clergy should he enabled to malienn at range-
"mem more agreeable to the landed proprietor than
'tont riow acted upon, without endaw,i,erittg the
onitoubted rights of theClotreit. This lie thought
'n fit subject for ingoiry, and should therefore vote
for the Committee without pledging himself to
any ulterior proceeding.
The CitaNcett.on of the EIACtitMUER ancl.Mr.
WETHERALL, severally explained. - •
Mr. J%nouGui a Slid the lion. and Learned
Gentleman opposite (Sir XV. Scott) hail adve%•ted,
with a jealousy utittiral to .a person who held a
high Ectlesiastkal situation, to the supposed mo-
tives of those who had brought the question on
Tittles into d4cussiou. lie (Sir W. Scott) op-
. peared to have wholly misconceived the ohject of
• 'the Hon. “elltlernalt Who .lti ought for Ward
ibis motion, when bit thought i.b.at. if no hostility
towards the Clergy was intended, that' at least the
motion went to th,akc the security of Church Pro-
perty. Ecclesiastical Property was as sacreik and
i!'.viOlable as any other prop'etty in the state.—
Though sohject 't'o the trut-old of Parliament,
the tithes proprietor had as rood a to his
proportion of the produce, tk'lle soil, as the pro-,
psietor of the land had to the remaining 9-10ths„
in the time of
,Edward W. 'our Ancestors ..00k
from the Clergy for seven years 411 the barrels
• land. . This shelved that the property of the
Cburcb was by no menns tti be considered sit in-
violable as some persons represented. When it
was the policy of th'e law to protect Any specie's
of agriculttire, the method pursued was to-ex-
'etitpt it limn the payment of tithes ; and in •proof
'of this lie eited the case of ',gadder, which Wits by
Statute protected against the payment of tithes.
llc alai tilloded to the pi oceediogs 111 Ireland re-
' tspecting the tithe of agistment, as another proot
the 'propel ty of the,Ghurch IV:IS not always
considered 'perfectly sacred. In Scotland, the
,beovlit.of a commtit.ition:of tithes was proved, as
ineqoality was there to be found in, the valne
to Church livings,(an inequality which existed in
Eugland to a most disgracefid degree„:,to the
jeopardy of Church and the great detrintepttif
'religion) 'mut in eansegnence of the :Minister re-
cei‘ing a regular stipend there was no living un-
der. 200/. a-vear. He. took this t iew of
'Subject, for the, purpose of thew ing that there
Was no danger in mooting this question ;
`tint trust it might. he itiqnired into :end an: ar-
hogc ment matte which would he for the odvau-
tags. of:, the' Chureh as well as of the Agri.culturist.
As to which his Uonourable Friend in.
tew!eci. to introduce, he had seep the headS of it,
thon,,4ht it,jiy iii' means .satisfactory, espe,
daily till ,lecontit of its compulsory luinciplesi.and
not calculated to soft ,tit places and circumstances.
The most prfsner a miew, ment. opittioo,
i'Or,;il Alt!' 10 latiOtV vt!l uorts of hatpins 'and
sales cr Pnsei k- wirb resnect.to tithes,
t.to Iliac tile Ordinary and the 1.41 y retro:1.511411011
Ol)voys ma4e parties to every snelt.bargain or
lease. This would leave the matter optional to all
parties, and would keep the property of the Church
ißciolable• 'Muth bcnefit had already been de-
Oved from the prngrgis of Inclosure Acts, which
llticl the ,e(lvet of, abolishing tithes' entirely. The
,tpotie which had been porsued in some cases wider
these Acts' was this---that Ail enactment was pro-
lotred by which ,a rate was levied for the purpose
44' purehasittg estate,. which; wits vested in the
Clergyman attid iai i SUCCOStOr6 flat' ever., in lieu of
tithes. Titos:tithes:were abolished completely, at
the ittstanee.ot all patties, auil-the arrangement
vas found most satisfactory. It was,some:such-
arraiigement as this he :wished to ,he adopted ;
but be would have no, compulsion, in a ques-
tion which so, much respected the.rights of the
property, lie agry.ed with his lion. Friend (Mr.
*and) in thinking t 4it h g seas more desir.
ahie than to have as many different modes as could
possibly be devised for the purpose of effecting
comuitontion, ,so that what Was .not appnrablie to
one district, m' one set sit' persons, might be so to
vluoth'cr. The Income Tex spewed. that the net
teat of land throoghout. the - kingdom was
1./0,009,000/. per annum. Front this it was gone
'clear dug the Church did not
,receive tiny' thing
• sloe tithe----aectording to his calculot km,
only omeyfilth of. what.it had a right to. It was
therefore greatly the .interest (if the .Church that A
commutation ,should take place, of thea it would
reteive nearly the one-tenth, instead °firmly mit-
fifth of this tedth to which they. were entitled.:,--
lie insisted very, strongly oat his, :The interests
of the Church, both religious and pecuniary, would
rec,jec ittlinitt advantage. : It wonhl completely
inn an end ,to the disgraceful squabbles 'diet ex.
13ted in malty ',A11% ot the, :kingdom on. the soh-
leet or tithes.. As .tet these disputes,- be imputed,.
no blame to the. Cirri;y, for, he waS coo-
thio alwo4r tvithWit CXecp.
wiS• Oil tlit part, of the: tithe-payer. H With
respect to the tootioo (twit Committee, he -test a
goosl deal- preitoligy4 If it; w '• 4404 Only
lOntcd irt7l-1 0,1•14111,0 t ipliCting the pctitiotaarc,'taa
thought it was, a eontrivance to which it Would •
be: much butt:;4. opt to-rehoit As Oi,the publica-
tions sespectitig tithes, whieh. lead :been rather
• ,harshly allanied to by. the Right lion. Gentleman
(Sir W. Stott), as he had ni-O, read.thetto himself
be 'could not speak. Batt; he WaS '4,oiliOlied
bear' that Right Cientrionatt speak as if Hoy
complaint made, ,agaiost . tithes bytatry tarmtr,
•
tutittUirtptitmtumuled clantuttr. The
Wole tpttioti was obusidered, it Would he
fotool that it was high trans that' the. Wittse:
should iuteticre, ittalot*lt: not by' isitv' cotoptasotit

meitattre,
PErt, rosc merely to expreLh his hope, that
IretriOd shotdd I,e iticiaded in this inquittv: -tie
very,;:nxioni for this. lit the first plitte, hca
cause many petitions hatl 'hreti pret,entett front
Ireland, praying that the .sithjrct he emi-
sidered r 2dly, e;4lle. it was alleged as a carisd
of (them/gent ; awl :idly, because the Chttrcties
of England and irt-lawl were ,p'erfectly tinite(h—=-
On ibe whole subject, he was glad to see that the

~, •
Clittrell tithci ;. I,,mitre•coes-
ii,),,ed. In the situation of Irchtud, there were
inatly ciretintitinic.es lt:ad to a,' per-
fectly satisfactory arrangeineut. .He believed,
that with rerpect to disserite;-.-., would be•move
aavisA ble to substitute a p:iyineut In the ‘vay of
rent-tithe, for one in the way of tithe. Great
difficulties existed in Ireland, as to the -collection
of tithes. \\' the Comint tee was appointed,
Many' plans:w on hi be ileveloped aud.sithnaitted to
the judgment of the Howie.
Mr'.:lloLars Sust:lLn thought the subject of
tithes was most deserting thesittonsideratimi of the
House, and !hat the present was it most fit time
for the inquiry. He thought that the mere ap-
poinopent (du Committee to consider the Peti-
tions would be productive of little good, unless
some particular object was pointed out, on which
the. Committee should report. It would, in his
opinion, be better to discuss the subject in a
Committee of the tehinle I-1011,e, and then to ap-
point a Committee up stairs to inquire into any
particular branches of the subject, or Aer a dis-
cussion in a Committee of the whole libuse, that
a Bill should be introduced.
Sir H. PARNELL regtetted that it was proposed
to mix the discussion of the qoestiott on liish
'Tithes with that which respected those of Great
thitain ; because, as it 'respected Ireland, the
question was !lobe different.
Alga 14. littows: insisted strongly on the neces-
sity of making eOttlC tlitCtotion itt the ayv•
tent of Irelaini.
Lord /Sftl.l.oll thought that there was much ex-
'aggerit idn'On thestibject of Tithes. He thought
there were many objections to a. commutation.
It would expose the Clergy to the nec'essity of
incurring great expintees in erecting buildings,
and also'!, would have a tendency to draw them
away.from their sacred functions to attend too
much to agricultural pursuits. At the same time,
he admitted that there were many good arguments
in favour of commutation : Jib; opinion on the
whole was, that some alteration in the present
sy,tein was necessary : he thought it would haVe
been better that, the House should have either
agreed to the motion of his Hon. Friend, or to
have negatived it altogether.
IlaowN explAined.
Mr. LESLIB FosTea vindiCated the Church of
Ireland front the charge of rapacity.' It ttitt;, in
his 'opinion; to 'the tHoderatinu 01 that Church
that its,vituperation waS owing. The tithe on
flax was only sixpence for the Whole crop. There
was none fur turnips. That for hay was 4s. fill.
per. acre. A.Clergyman iii Ireland•had offere&to,
cominute the whole of his tithes for 2s. per acre,
but that had not been accepted. The chief ob-
jection in 'lreland was to the existence, not the
rate of ti:hes, lie had risen meiely' to vindicate
the character of the Irib Clergy, who had not
made themselves judges in their owe came, and
of whom x notch greater proportion were resident
on their livings than at die English Clergy. Only
two-thirds of kithes'of lrelaml were the pro,
perty of. the,Chureb; the tither third was in the
hands of lay proprietors, and that would increase
the difficulty of isuy settlement tespecting the,
tithes in that country:
Dr.t.t vial:sett.
biEtVPQOI said that great bebefit woold
the eerta'..nty of tenantry in Ire.:
land. lie .eoridetimed the practice which had,pre-
wailed in several parts. for clereyinCo to exchange,
their livings in order to get rid of the leases which
they had given. ..„Sottiethiog should be Otte to
tewedy that, evil.
Colonel Wools agreed with the Noble Lurdiort-
posite (-Milton). that clergymen should not be
made large landholders. lie suggested that it
would be the mdst advantageous-Platt for them to
give leases of their tithes to the owners, and not
to the occupiers of land.
Mr. PausToN did nut object to the Comtnittee
as fur as it would go, but he thought that it' would
not go fin• enongh,' and that some more decided
uleasure ot.gitt aolie adopted.
l\lr Ni.:NVNIAN repiia l,'
Th.! :,,tion was th.co put, and the Amendment
catried without-it
A Committee appointed. •
Mr. W. SMITH' perAipollCd t,is ltlOtioll respecting
Extents, till to-mortoW scianight.