Star.
London, England, 1808-02-19 00:00:00

sotesose 411 14 „ht, of geptem-
* tin* after)
sr4°l • nal proprietor
..of t)io crikliog piece
the - leo not replied 'he, !..ia.mtat'efiraiit ►it my-
env
or for the shooting season, onto to put a
oak to it. which Makes it to all intents and
tiier jet my property. He wee glad, however, that
h Minies had acted so like this conscientious
n they hid countermanded the orders they
sertima, ' Kith respect to the ne* names of the Da-
which ,a"-- : had appeared in all the public prints.
To ' lad that they had restored. to the ships their
'll4 eones, and was happy to warless this slight evi-
. ef even nomad honesty. With respect to the
ege
~, ae precedent, he was concerned to dissent from 1
'-'Noble and Learned Friend on the Woolsack--the
c'
cited his Noble Friend did not, in his opinion,
6•-- 'tebefore their Lordships. There was no
ly to that
iiiigatien whatever on the part of this country to re-
goe to the revolutionized state of Holland the ships
oo to Stadtholder. Had the Stadtholder
sist3kenin-edinat the head of the Dutch Government and
tad a peace been concluded between the States and
dee then and in that case, he was of opinion
Ilist4atc:ueeouliba; e precedent boundtoTrestore those ships.
the of onion, he believed
Feb respect to
Ito 'kilts in error he . would be corrected) that the
tejeo fleet was deposited in our hands on the exprets
'condition of their being restored on the restoration of
tnaa ; and in the treaty D
onem them was
lifer as he understood, syllable said by
frame indicative of any claim to that fleet. [To
told Sidmouth signified his assent.]
was noting fur which he was more anxi-
tut there
than thewtO the world that what we did was
me tha
Jed the oork of Mere necessity, and that that ne-
cessity once at an cnd, wc scorned to enter into any
pitdui. calculation of turning it to our own advantage.
If as was pretended, the rigorous necessity of the case
caged us to an aggression of the strong against the
yak, let us net descend to the sordid consideration of
*pprig the fruits of that aggression to the best ac.
The case that bad been cited by a Noble
, aof a neutral vessel being subject to seizure for
on.ying on enemy's goods, did net apply
had by th
de-
a
-very act of carrying enemy's goods, the st
toted from her professed neutrality, and wasns of
no
lager entitled to the privileges and ex ti
neutrality. He exhorted their Lordships to consider
the motion now before them, with all that serious at-
tention it demanded, and concluded by concurring in
the 'sentiments of the Noble mover, that had he voted
with Ministers upon every stage in which the policy
or justice of the Copenhozen expedition had been
broueht into question, he still should have felt it his
duty to have voted for the resolution proposed by the
Noble Viscount.
Lord WESTMORLAND was convinced that the
arguments and views of the Noble Viscount who
made the motion were founded in the purest motives,
but like all subjects which involve political interests,
and great questions of-state, there must be a differ-
ence of opinion. On this ground he rose to oppose
the proposition before their Lordships. Waiving the
principle of the motion altogether, he would say, that
this country must be in a most deplorable condition
indeed, nay, reduced to the lowest state of degrada-
tion and ruin, if it were not able, at the close of the
war, at least with Denmark, to restore the ships
taken at Copenhagen, or at all events to make testis
tution for theme—therefore' the present discussion
must be at an end, if their Lordships thought that,
under any circumstances, we ought to do the one or
the other. With respect to the attacks made by
Noble Lords on the other side, as to the injustice,
cruelty, and despotism exhibited in our attack, he
shouldonlyobserve, thathlinisters, thought themselves
justified, under all the circumstances of the case,to un-
dertake the expedition, thinking it necessary to the
security of the empire. But surely such charges ill.
accorded with the conduct of the late Ministers when
*office, the they had avowed a determinetion to vin-
dicate the rights, the independence, and maritime
Supremacy of England, on the very ground assumed
and acted upon by their successors. He was well-
aware that the object of the motion was to censure
by a side-wind the present Ministers ; but why not
tvow it, and boldly tell their Lordships and the pub-
lic, that such was their intention ? He and his col-
leagues were ready to meet any, attack of that kind,
conscious that they had conducted themselves under
the difficulties of the State in the best manner for
averting the danger with which we were menaced.-
liewing the question in this light, and differing from
the Noble Viscount who made the motion, he should
sit down with stating that he must, if it were pushed
,to a divisiOn, vote against it.
Lord SELKIRK= supported the present motion,
'though he approved of the expedition. The Noble
Lord argued for a shOrt time, to shew that there was
too inconsistency in his conduct.
Lord REDESDALE contended that the motion
d the Noble Viscount meant to convey a direct ce
sure, not only on the present Ministers, who had
planned the expedition, but also on the Parliament
of the Kingdom, which had sanctioned, by its deci-
sion, the onginal proceedings, Surely then nothing
could be more inconsistent or contradictory, thanfor
those who had supported the expedition, and acknow-
ledged its necessity, to pass sentence of reprobation i
on the result of it.
Lord DARNLEY conceived that the honour and
interest of the country should bait prevented us, in
the
.first instance, from carrying• the plan conceived
Nernst Copenhagen into execution ' • but it did not
w, that because that act of violence and of un-
justifiable aggression had been committed, that we
were to add infamy to iniquity. There surely must
arrive a state of things, and an interchange of rela-
tions between both Countries, which we should now,
while we have it in our power, anticipate, and that
with the utmost desire and satisfaction. He felt him-
self, therefore, called on to support the motion.
Lord MULGRAVE conceived that the object of
the motion, if carried, would convey a direct charge
on the present Administration, which was not jusu-
fied by their conduct, particularly in respect to Copen-
hagen. He was certain, that Noble Lords could not
mean to recommend the restoration of the Danish fleet
at this moment ; if so, they had not considered the
means which the Danish Government would in that
case possess of annoying and attacking us, in obeo
dience and in conformity to the wishes of the enemy.
Nothing could be more dangerous or destructive than
the increase of the enemy's power, under any cir-
cumstances, but especially when the possession of such
a fleet as that of Denmark would afford eeeryfacility.

, .
,for eMecting.,.their Purpose. He hardy tit ~ ... .
that air Lordships would come tO e.
'on fauna kvhat the Noble Viscount2.l. '.
143 k
litliteCt6Ch
I..toid GlLEN.Vjltiell took a titbit iieili itTsc.,./1.16".1
1401 heads of airunent ,urged by his Mai fyy* Ma
sisters, aad conauXectwith stating. that lie was de7
b
cidedly of opinion that the greatest service would
;vault to this country from the restoration of the
Dinish fleet, even under` existing circumstances, if
that Power could be thus conciliated. What danger
could arise from this act tif justice and retribution, to
a nation whose independance we had so grossly vio-
lated ? What ! did Noble Lords fear that the power
of France would be materially reduced by this sub-
traction, as it was considered, of the Danish Navy ?--;-
i Those who thought so knew little of the means and
resources of Denmark ? Did the Danes want mate-
rials for the building of a navy ? Those they had in
as great abundance as England. Did they want arse-
nals or dock-yards ? Those also they possessed equal
to this country. But it might be said that they could
not, perhaps, build a navy, even with those advan-
tages, because they wanted money : this, however,
was an expectation which would prove fallacious, for
it could not be supposed that in the present state of I
Europe the Danish Government would not be able to
procure pecuniary aid, and all other resources neces- i
sary for carrying its hostility into effect against us.
Nothing, in his mind, could be more ridiculous than
the notion, that by taking sixteen or eighteen ships
from the Danes, we had established our own security,
and completed the ruin of their navy. On the whole,
he must declare himself in support of the present mo-
tion, because it demonstrated to Europe that the peo-
ple of this country were perfectly alive to a sense of
honour, and of that proud national feeling which al-
ways distinguished them. They would not aver with
his Majesty's Ministers, that the Crbwn.Prince had
committed hostility against this country by his refusal
to compromise the interest, the honour, and the in-
dependence of Denmark. Even the present Ministers
did not attempt to bring forivard any ground for
sanctioning their violation of any principle which had
been hitherto acted on by civilized nations.
Lord HAWKESBURY agreed with the Noble,
Baron, that if the Crown Prince had only resisted an
attack made on the Danish Navy, there might be
ground for the observations which their Lordships
had just heard ;, but when it was known that there
was not only a hostile mind, but that it had been
manifested by an avowal of a determination to co-
operate with the enemy, what then was the country
to do, but to resort to every means for its security and
protection ? Having put ourselves in possession of
the fleet of Denmark, were we to be called on at this
moment to surrender it, when the Danish Govern-
ment had declared for Bonaparte, and entered most
cordially into his views of ruining us both by sea and
land ? This was in its& a proposition so fatal to the
country, that he was certain it could not be the inten-
tion of the Noble Viscount to propose or maintain it;
but the motion would have that effect, and therefore
he trusted that their Lordships would, by their votes
that night, give an additional proof of their confidence
in his Majesty's Government.
Lord SIDMOUTH spoke in reply. After the
armed neutrality in 1801, the Danish islands were
restored-in the same condition in which they were
when taken. He declared that his motion was not
intended to censure his Majesty's Ministers, but to
do an act of justice, and to regain the affections of a
brave people.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the Motion, 31 Against it, 61
Proxies, ' 20 Proxies, 44 Majority.
—sl' —.105 54
' Adjourned at Two o'clock. .

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Sir THOMAS TURTON moved to revive three Orders of
the last Session, founded upon motions of his own, fur Papers
respecting the Polygar War, and Carnatic Affairs, which were
revived accordingly.
Mr. G. PONuONBY moved for Copies of such additional
Communications as had been, received by his Majesty's Ministers,
respecting the increased rigour of the French Government, iu exe-
cuting the Decree of the Bth December.—Ordered.
Mr. HUSKISSON presented the Ten Million Exchequer Bills
BilL—Read the first time, and ordered-for the second reading to-

morruw.
Committed the Bank Unclaimed Dividends Bill, and the Sur-
veyor of Cuutoma Abolition Bill; and ordered to be reported„to-

morrow.
Read the third time the American Treaty Bill; passed, and
ordered to the Lords.
The SECRE I'ARY at WAR presented the Army Estimates
for the Year, and gave notice he should move them to-morrow
se'nnight.
A Person from the Ordnance Department presented the Ord-
nance Estimates for Great Britain and Ireland for the Year.—Or-
dered to be printed.
The Report from the Commissioner; for regulating Offices in
the House of Commons was presented, and ordered to lie en the
Table.
Su. JOHN LUBBOCK presented a Petition from the Company
of Merchants traCin.; to the Levant Seas.—Ordered to lie tartlte
Table. •
Mr. WILLIAM TAYLOR gave notice of a motion for this day
se'nnight, relative to the conveyance of specie from e Spanish
Colonies to this Country.
The Thanks of the House were voted to the Rev. lone CHAS,
rm. WOODHOUSE' Chaplain of the House, for his Sermon before
the Commies, at St. Margaret's Church, on Wednesday last. .
It was ordered, on the motion of Mr. G. PONSONBY, that
there be laid before the House an Account of an Danish Ships de-
tained as Prizes, and now pending the judgment of the Adndralty
Court in this Country, or of Ships detained as suspected of car-
rying Danish Property, on the like circumstance, since hostilities
vaarmernoed against Denmark.
Mr. T. catgrwipLE mated for some additional Papers on
etc subject of the Dardanellesquestion, namely, Copies or Extracts
from Instructions sent to his Majesty's Minister .at the Porte,
touching the line of conduct he was to pursue there, in relation to
the cause of Russia, and more especially after the Continental
Confederacy of MS.—Ordered.
Colonel WOOD gave notice of a motion for to-morrow, for
Copies of the Insumetion• sent out from this Country respecting
the Military and Naval Force sent against the Dardanelles and
EliPtr
. DUNbAS obtained leave to brink in a Bill for continuing
the Scotch Bankrupt Laws.
COLD NAM FIELDS PRISON.
Mr. SHERIDAN rose to Members
a petition from .
the late Foreman and several Members of the Grand'
Jury of the County Atf Middlesex, respecting the
abuses existing in the prison of Cold Bath Fields. It
would be in the recollection of the House, that he had •
upon a former occasion, namely, in the year 1800,
called the attention of Parliament and his Majesty's
Ministers, to the gross abuses then existing in the
conduct and management of that prison. On that
occasion, honoured-by the aid of the worthy Baronet I
mar him (Sir FRANCIS BURDETT), he stated such
• cases, and aid such strong ground to przve the abso-
lute necessity of some immediate investigation of
those abuies, as to interest the attention ei Govern-

discouraging
purpok tin that occasiun Might. _ .
terred him from complying; •on this occasion, with
the request of those very respectable portions, whose
names were annexed to the petition in his hand, by
offering it to the House.. It was signed by Mr. Stevens;
the respectable Foreman of the late Grand Jury of
the county of Middlesex ; by Mrs Phillips, one of the
present Sheriffs of London, who had very laudably e:.--
erted himself indiscovering and collecting abuses inure
several prisons of the Metropolis, and by sieve:tad other
members of the Grand Jury who herd visited•the his
son, and witnessed, with their own eyess- the =bow
agaiest which ihey Awe; prayed the linerfeetuciudt
Parliament. ...)I,adbut .another observable aim*
namely, that the Peitisios whams he held- ire hitlehof
did not proceed from any party motive, aisderairdray, ,
ted for no other purpose than for the redress of extol
Ling abuses, which were reproachful to the Police, *I
not to the Jurisprudence et* the country. It was ells i
ways his principle, that.n ostler to.obtain the Teams ,
of such grievances, application should always be 1,
made in the first instance to his Majesty's Govern-
ment, to try what they, in their discretion, should be
inclined to do, and if they should refuse to interfere,
then he thought application should be made to the
Legislature. Such was the advice he had- given to
the worthy persons who had placed this Petition in
his hands ; and he understood the Foreman had been
honoured by a conference with the Right Honourable
Gentleman opposite to him (the Chancellor of the
Exchequer) the ultimate result of which was, a re-
quest to him to present. the Petition. For the pre-
sent, therefore, he should only move, that the Petition
be received, read, and lie on the table ; assuring his
Majesty's Ministers, that if they should feel inclined,
to take up the subject, institute an inquiry, and in-
troduce such measures as they should feel just and
necessary on the subject, he should most cheerfully
resign to them all the credit and popularity of the
case ; but if, after lying a reasonable time on the
table, it should not receive due notice from them, he
should feel it his duty to bring forward the subject
for Parliamentary interference.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
said, that after what had just been observed by the
Right Honourable Gentleman, as his conception of
the mode of originating a business of this nature,
and since he had come forward to the House with a
Petition, foregoing that mode, it became a question
how far Government ought now to interfere. It was
true, some of those Gentlemen, whose names were
to the Petition, had certainly called on him, and he
had advised them to represent the matter to the
Secretary of State, to whom if it should appear, on
further inquiry, that grievances, such as stale
did really exist, no time should be lost in adopting
the necessary measures for redress. The cornmu-
nication, he believed, took place so far far back
las Michaelmas Sessions; no representation of the
kind had been since made, and therefore he con-
cluded that a satisfactory explanation had been
given. Now whether or not the officers of the exe-
cutive Government should have been resorted to, on
this subject, before it was brought forward for Parlia-
mentary notice, was for the consideration of the Ho-
nourable Gentleman who had conceded that Govern-
ment ought to have an opportunity of considering
how far they ought to interfere, and what steps they
should deem the best to pursue, before an appeal was
made to the Legislature. He felt no disposition to
oppose the motion for laying the Petition on the table,
though he thought the mode of introducing it savou- ,
red somewhat of party feeling, and that the Right
Hon. Gentleman, in thus bringing it forward, had i
acted contrary to the very principles he himself had
laid down.
Mr. SHERIDAN said, that the Petitioners in this
instance were warranted, by the fate of the Petition
of 1800, to the subject agaiii under a Parlia-
mentary view, as a sort of collateral stimulus to the
justice of his Majesty's Ministers ; for upon the former
occasion it must be recollected, that n,awithstanding
all the formality of a Commission of Inquiry, and
after a voluminous Report of those Commissioners
was laid upon the table, no one measure was ever
adopted, nor any step taken in consequence, to re-
dress the grievances complained of ; and instead of
adopting the one radical measure of redress, namely,
the dismissal of Mr. Aris, the Chief Governor of the
Prison, he received even more protection and support
than he ever bad before ; and this was the mo-
tive for placing the subject now under the eye of
Parliament.
• The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER Said
the motive which probably prevented the Governs
ment of the day from taking any steps on the subject
was, that the Parliament to whom the Report was
made, recommended no measure for adoption.
Mr. SHERIDAN said, that Parliament forbore,
depending upon the Government.
The Petition was received and read. It was dated
Saturday, Nov. 3, 1807, and was signed by the Fore-
man and eleven of the Grand Jury of Michaelmas ses-
'ion ; and it complainedof short weight, not only in the
bread delivered to prisoners, to the amount of from
one to two ounces in some of the daily loaves, but that
each prisoner lo it, by deficient weight even inthepri-
son pound weight, kept for the purpose of a check, for
such bread. It complained that persons against whom
no proofs of,aay crimehadbeensubstantiatedbeforethe
Magistrates, were sent back to that prison under pre-
tence of reexamination, and sent to solitary confine-
ment in cold cells, eight feet three inches long, by
three feet two inches wide. It stated, that the Petiti-
oners found a mother, a daughter and son of credita.
ble appearance, in s.parate cells, their health exposed
to injury from the cold extetnal air, without any
warmth from fuel, while even the felons wen allowed
a large fire in the common room ; it stated the distress-
ing case of a female, a foreigaer,,smt there wader a
temporary privation of her reason, in which situation
she was debauched by one of the sons of Governor

tli.i ,
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.4 peritA 44fir wit,
Signed by men, who, hi fae; ceased ""'"k Se licit.
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evening; to ballot A Conimittee on the Writtlaghdia PEW
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Mr. DENT rose, and said, that* in ordetaille-Ventlemeo ihould
not be carried away by impallsticins injuilinis- `to the character of
an Hen. Baronet, from the imputations of an Hell. Member, en
a former night, respequa. *.g e remittance of the value of the wised
seized from him, he should now move for certain papers illu,:rar
tive of that transaction, as well as those of the meritorious &Arse-
' ter and conduct of that Han. Baronet. He, therefore, moved for
a copy of the memorial of Sir Home Popham to his Majesty, Id.
117 es, praying leave of absence ; and of a lettat from Sir MO
Stevens to Sir Home, signifying his Majesty's permission,. on tn.
signing his half pay. Also a series of other papers respecting the
voyage of Sir Home in the Etrusco to India, the Ipgrobation of
the Governor and Council of his services there,hod their recom-
mendation of him to the Court of Directors at ome, and dews to'
the restoration of Sir Homes property in the ship President and,
her cargo.—Ordered.
Mr. LONG gave notice, that he should move on to-morrow fot
papers to sheet that the restoration of Sir Home Popham of his
property, in that instance, was an act of justice.
Mr. LUSHINGTON wished to know what the Hon. Gentle-
man meant to prove by the documents fur which he had moved.
Mr. DENT answered, his object was to take the earliest oppor-
tunity, in the absence of the Honourable Baronet, occasioned by
the unfortunate accident of fracturing his leg, to vindicate his
character from the imputations that had been thrown upon him;
and in reference to a notice of a motion given by an Honourable
Gentleman. .
Mr: LUSHINGTON said, his notice of a motion respected the
conduct of the HMI. Baronet in respect to the American vend
Prioident,for which he had exchanged the &now, for the pur-
pose of violating the charter of the East India Comp any, and ob-.
taming colourablk ship's papers, to coins Ids project.—The Hon.
Member was called to order.
Mr. LUSHINOTON said, he was about to move for papers;
and as he was not certain shay would be granted him, was alp
stating grounds foi his motion. He, however, bowed to the aura
thorny of the Chair, and said the misfortune of the Hun. 'Baronet;
and of some other bf his talially, furnished motives sufficient to
dissuade him from goingfarsher into the .object at present. * Hi
should only move for. certain document* to justify WS eendliCt CO
a former night, snd to illiotrate the subjectpreparatory to a future
investigation. He concluded by moving ter a long series of pa-
pers, containing copies ofthe correspondence of Sir Home witheaa
riots departments of Government, the charter-patty, and tithe
.hip's papers, belonging to the ship President, and various dace:- •
merits on the proceedings thereon, before the Admiralty Court,
with the decree of the. Court itself.
The CHANCELLOR ofthe EXCHEQUER wished to knoW
from the Hots. Gentleman, the nature and object of the moths he
meant to found upon those documents. . ,
Mr. LUSHINGTON explained,#at it was the object he ori-
ginally avowed, namely, to sheW that the grant of 25;0001. to'Sie
H. Popham was a misapplication of tilearublic money.
Mr. LONG said, he alsoddieel it Illy to prove the contritil
The Papers were ordered „ i i..••• '
°untie 13.• AIL.
The Order of the Day. being read for the second
reading of the Bill for carrying into effect the Orderi
of Council respecting neutral ships,
Mr. EDEN rose, to declare his sentiments shortly
against the Bill. He would leave it to the Gentleasen
of more eloquent abilities to expatiate on the mischief:
vous principles of the Bill, as violating both national
and municipal laws; while he'should content himself
with protesting against it, as a measure, not, as it
was professed bole. of retaliation upon the enemy;
or to crush the power of the Tyrant of France, bit# of
injury to neutral nations, and of vengeance against
the unoffending, for the injury done to ns by the ene-
my, more especially of injury to America. In con-
sidering this subject, he wished to discard from his
view every thing on the doctrine of retaliation, witli
this single remark, which he conceived to be the great
principle of the Law of Nations ; namely, that re-
prisals against' an enemy can be no excuse for injur-
ing an unoffending nation ; but the consequence of
carrying into effect those orders . against the ships of
the United States, would be an indirect violation of
that principle. He would be glad to know,'where
his Majesty's Ministers had revoked the assurances
they had given to America, or whether they proposed
to execute the orders rigorously. If so, he foresaw
the most dePlorable consequences to the commerce
and connexion 'between the two countries, and that
we should adopt the law of retaliation with much
greater severity towards America than towards
France, who had unequivoCally relaxed- the severity-
of her decrees towards America.
Sir JOHN NICHOLLS supported the Bill.—
The policy of the measure, and its inconsistency with
the law of nations, he observed, could only be decided
upon from a view of the circumstances from which it
originated. The decree of Bonaparte, which was
intended for the purpose of excluding us from the
commerce of the world, was the great original cause
from which the necessity of this measure was deriveci.
Aczording.to this decree, an American, or any °dies
neutral, might bring the produce of their different
countries to Britain, but were forbidden to take there
a single bale of our commodities, under the penalty
of confiscation. It therefore became the duty, as
well as the interest of every neutral natibii, to repel,
by every means,, the effects of such a violent Mee-

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id • ;report of , •fit hW against nt • ..e*dt c .!,,,,, •,......1 .
...' attic
ll" ...; ts.. . .whi.ciii- 400 .is. *Aim x.• thi' Pit 16414, "g'*%lst,litt °klbi''''" ' '17..r."' • - is- t,' '
akfissumurs did Aot, Ana -the.staistiai,ibnitas to' preeeding fletsiort;;lircidigti,:siir Ifi;"'‘..l.'
found
the. rum
'of z theie eskutuity, yet they were Catinty-c6tittaiOdU,.tciritill,dtai ',' : - • . •
..
found suffietendy•nunierous. And stating tO4natify -die don. They i/.nieltiefed 'fly b. •-• ' ' *. ttiat .
representation which had beettiiistda- : Perhaps tie very tif-tlise thattif irai die i*fitt. O %tilt tWo
Ministers of that day were influenced, in not siccing inspection ; 4nd ttrit (Frey were conellictl* ilk.,
upon the report of the Committee, by not beifig dis- teqsire bolifiry-ircinldhaike in'abled,iffetrto'4l 'atkir:,
posed to be influenced by popular chuhour. How. abuses still nidreglaiiirand nufilertins., : ;4- ',_ . ,
ever that might be, the redress proposed was entirely Mr. SVMNBRThad hoisbjection ti thOWstitian,i,l)iik
abandoned. But, discouraging. as the failure of his thought the -Molise riltild not'Oielielt dlirelt plftr„
nun:6k tin that occasion Might. be, it had not de- potted to be the petitiOn Of a Ora n& Jur?, and WA,
• _ • i ~_ —..... ..,;.1...... ;...; et,..4,_ ,-.)ssed ttl fie so last

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