Star.
London, England, 1830-05-14 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS—Tnunsu+r.

The House went into a Committee on Doyly's Divorce Bill, and
heard evidence.
The House resumed. The Report was ordered to be taken into
consideration to-morrow.
Mr. C. GRANT presented a petition from Brighton, in favour of
the Jews ; and a petition from John Lawless, for the introduction of
poor laws into Ireland.
Mr. TENYSON presented a petition from Birmingham, against
the consumption of beer sold under excise licence on the premises.—
The petition was signed by the Clergy and Magistrates, and 1,000
inhabitants; he cordially concurred in its prayer.
Lord BELFAST presented a petition from the proprietors of
newspapers in Belfast, against any increase of the stamp duty on
newspapers.
Mr. CHAPLIN presented a petition from New and Old Slea-
ford, against the consumption of beer, under the Beer Bill, on the
premises._

• Mr. FYLER presented a petition from the ribbon weavers of Co-
ventry, against the system of half-pay apprentices.
Sir M. W. RIDLEY presented a petition from the tobacconists
of Newcastle-upon-Tyne, for a reduction of the duty on tobacco.
Mr. S fEWART presented a petition from John Bennett, late
Collector of Ceylon, praying for an inquiry into the conduct of the
Governor, who had given orders for indicting corporal punishment
on the natives without trial.
Mr. STEWART asked whether the charges against the Gover-
nor of New South Wales had been inquired into ?
The ATTORNEY .GENERAL said the subject was under con.
sidcration, and he hoped soon to be able to lay the result before the
house.
Lord KILLEEN presented a petition from farmers in the county
of Meath, against any increase of duty on cora spirits.
Lord SURREY presented a petition from Worksop, in favour of
the Jews.
Mr. WARDS presented the fifth report of the committee on the
trade to the East Indies.
CoL C[LADOCK presented a petition from the North Riding of
York, fora commutation of tithes.

Mr. KEMP presented a petition from the Jews of Brighton, fur
the repeal of the penal laws.
Mr. STANLEY presented a petition from Preston, against the
renewal of the East India Company's charter; and a petition from
the overseers of Preston, praying that the owners of tenements under
101. a year should be rated to the poor-rate.
Mr. PANE presented a petition from Wallingford against the
Beer Bill.

Mr. WODEHOUSE presented petitions from Aylesford, Diss,
Dereham, and Grimshaw, against the Beer Bill.
Mr. W. SMITH presented a petition from Norwich in favour of
the Jews.
Lord EBRINGTON presented a petition from Tavistock against
the punishment of death for forgery ; and a petition from the same
place against the East India Company's monopoly; and a petition
from the parish of St. Paul, Covent-garden, against the Beer BilL
Mr. DICKENSON presented a petition from Frorne against
the clause in the Beer Ball allowing beer to be drunk on the premises ;
and two petitions from parishes in Somerset against the punishment
of death for forgery.
Sir J. WROTTESLEY moved for a return of the places where
joint stock banks were established.—Ordered.
Dlr. O'CONNELL presented a petition from the dissenters and
catholics of the parish of St. Peter, Cork, against the Vestry Bill.
He would only say, that the house had expressed no great sympathy
with the people of Ireland.
A MEMBER whose name we did not know, said he could not
hear it said that the house showed no sympathy with the people of
Ireland.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. O'CONNELL said he had made the assertion deliberately,
and would repeat it. lie had proposed, on the part of the Catholics
of Ireland, that their money should not be taken out of their pockets
without their consent by the Vestry Act, and the motion was nega-
tived by an immense majority.
lily. O'CONNELL presented a similar petition from Middleton
and ‘Vititechurch, in the county of Cork. In the latter place, the
Catholics were a hundred and twenty to one, yet the one Protestant
had power to tax the hundred and twenty Catholics. He thought
that system of legislation required amendment. The hon. gentle.
man presented a similar petition from the Catholics of Cloync, who
were fifty to one to the Protestants; and a petition from the letter.
press printers of Dublin, against any increase of the stamp duty on
newspapers. They had written a letter to him, in which they called
the Act of Union a "hell-born measure." He also presented a pe-
tition from Dublin, against the assimilation of nisei ; and a peti-
tion front Templetown, in the county of Wexford, against the vestry
act, and tithe system.
Mr. HARVEY presented a petition from Sir Jonah Barrington,
praying for an examination of witnesses at the bar of the house, in
answer to the charges preferred against him.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT said the petition had been heard by a
committee of the house. Their report was on the table for twelve
months, and now at the last moment he asks to be heard again.
Mr. STURGES BOURNE said, the committee had heard every
witness that Sir Jonah Barrington thought proper to produce, and
the expense of his witnesses was defrayed by the public.
Sir THODIAS ACKLAND presented a petition from Newport,
in Devon, against the coal tax, and similar petitions from Newton
Btuthel and Chudleigh ; and a petition from another place in Devon
against the punishment of death for forgery.
Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH presented a petition from Edin.
burgh, against the punishment of death for forgery in any case.—
The petition was signed by eighteen clergymen, and by the profes.
sors of the University ; and by eighteen bankers, and by the dis-
tinguished persons who stood at the head of the bat in Scotland.
The LORD ADVOCATeI of SCOTLAND said the law, as at
present administered in Scotland, had the effect of repressing the
crime of forgery. Every crime in Scotland was prosecuted by a
public prosecutor, at the public expense, who had the power of res-
tricting capital punishment, and capital punishment in the case of
forgery was almost unknown. The number of persons committed
for forgery from 1816 to 1826, amounted to 194, including those
for uttering forged notes, and of these only seven persons suffered
death ; and in the last of these three years there was no capital pu-
nishment ; but if the law should be changed in England, he could
not object to a similar change in Scotland.
Mr. BARING said, it there was to be no substitute for ca.
pital punishment but transportation, he thought it would amount to
no puniahment at all; but if solitary confinement, or any other
punishment that would be really felt as a heavy punishment, were
eabstituted, he would with pleasure submit to the change.
Sir M. W. RIDLEY said, if transportation wu to be fixed on
as the punishment for forgery, he hoped it would be made a punish-
ment to be dreaded. He was informed that some such convicts took
from this country the means of living there in a manner much su-
perior to what they were used to in this country.
Dlr. F. BUXTON said be could produce hundreds of cases of
bankers who had not prosecuted, in consequence of the punishment
being death ; but who would have prosecuted had the punishment
been lesssevere. He had in his possession • petition to present,
signed by 400 baeken, and 200 firms, who, for their own security,
required a mitigation of the punishment.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT thonght the punishment of death for
forgery ought to be abolished ; but that some severer punishment
than traoeportatioa ought to be substituted.
Sir T. SBARING had no doubt the desire of all was the preven-
tion of crime; and if that object could be obtained by a lesser
punishment than death, he was confident all would epee in it. He
thought that object could' le obtained. He believed hard labour
now made a part of the punishment of transportation. There was a,
growing opinloo In the cithatzy that forgery should not be punished
with death, and he thought that feats should be acted on by the
house.—(Hear, ham)

Lord J. RUSSELL thought the punishment of transportation
might be made more effectual than the punishment of death in the
repression of the crime of forgery. He should heartily support the
abolition of the punishment of death.
Alr. O'CONNELL had long been of opinion that human life
should not be taken away for offences against property committed
without violence.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, the difficulty
of fixing a new punishment was greatly increased by the long eats.
blishtnent of the existing law. He thought it on extremely hazard-
ous experiment to abolish the punishment of death suddenly; and
he thought his right hon. friend was acting with sound discretion by
withdrawing the punishment of death gradually.
Mr.HUAIE thought the right lion. gentleman had not sufficiently
reflected that the alteration should be made on principle ; and he
could not see why the punishment of death should be taken fro.n
some forgeries, and continued as the punishment of others. He
thought, on the best principles of legislation, the punishment of
death should not be inflicted on any crimes but those against life,
murder, and tees on, which was the cause of many inuthers. Look.
ing at the effect of capital punishments in America, where they
were inflicted for murder only, the house would perceive that crime
was not by any means so prevalent in that country as this, where
so sanguinary a code was maintained, which code ought to be im-
mediately ameliorated.
Mr. M. A. TAYLOR said, he knew that many persons had suf.
feted severely from forgeries committed upon them, and yet declined
to prosecute owing to the severity of the punishment upon the of.
fender. The evil of extensive forgery could only be prevented by
abolishing the punishment of death.
Mr. l% ARBUItTON supported the petition. which was quite in
accordance with the feeling out of doors generally. The bankers
had a committee of their own for the purpose of prosecuting for
forgery, and yet he knew that the members themselves of that corn.
mitts* had declined to prosecute in cases affecting their own intere-ts,
solely on the ground of the severity of the punishment.
Sir C. FORBES supported the petition.
Mr. ROBINSON also supported the petition, on the ground that
the law did not afford the same protection as it would do if the pit.
nishment of death for forgery were abolished.
Mr. MA RitIOTT said, that most persons had a dislike .0 pr.-.
acetate where they knew the result must be the de:tih of the off..ndar.
Mr. BROWNLOW said he had a petition from the bankers of
Belfast, the sentiments of which were quite in accordance with what
had fallen that night from hon. members on both sides of the house.
Sir J. MACKINTOSH moved that the petition should
printed.—Agreed to.
Sir J. MACKINTOSH postponed the Regi- tnr of Madras Bill
until Friday week.

CpURCIIES.
On the motion of Lord SAYEION, a return was ordered of all ap.
plications to the commissioners of new churches fcr the building of
chapels ; and also of the number to which the commissioners
ac-
cedtd.—ln answer to ague/aim-I put by the noble lord with respect
to a misunderstanding occasioned by the seventh and eighth sections
of the New Churches Bill,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he had a
measure prepared on the subject, but it was delayed from the impos.
sibility of finding time to bring it forwsrd.
Mr. SPOTTISWOODE presented a petition front J. F. Car-
ding, complaining of the inconvenience arising from the present
mode of burial in several parts of the metropolis. The pc; Weiner
prayed that a committee of the house might be appointed ta inquire
into the subject. It was impossible, the hon. gentleman said, on
going into some of the burial grounds in and about the metropolis,
not to be struck with the Indecencies which wt re witnessed. He al-
luded to this subject before, alien he had the honour of presenting
a petition relative to a new street from Waterloo-bridge; and he
thanked the noble lord at the head of the Woods and Forests fur the
attention he had paid to the subject.
Lord LOWTHER said he concurred in what had fallen from
the hon. member relative to the burial grounds in the metropolis.
The only place over which he possessed any controul was St. Mar-
tin's Church ; and there he gave directions, which were carried
into execution, that catacombs or vaults should be formed sufficient
to contain the bodies that might be carried there for many years to
come.

Mr. HUME thought the time had arrived when the burial of
persons within the limits of the metropolis should be entirely put an
end to. In Spain, Sicily, and Constantinople, they managed things
differently, and in this respect they might take a lesson from these
countries, to which they considered themselves so superior. He vi-
sited many parts of the metropolis in the neighbourhood of church-
yards, and he was informed that at certain times the effluvium was
most disagreeable, and must be unwholesome.

STATE Or THE POOl.
Mr. SLANEY raid he was rejoiced to think that the abuses prac-
tised upon the poor would be gradually relieved. There was au es-
sential difference between the condition of the poor in the labouring
and manufacturing climes. His early impressions were in favour of
the land, but without the improvement of the manufacturing classes,
the state of the former could not be beneficially improved. (Hear.)
—ln 1801, the number of manufacturers was as six to five, and
in 18.30, they were two to one as compared with the agri.
culturists. There was an increase as to population in different towns
of from thirty to fifty and fifty-four per cent. between manufacturers
and agriculturists. However, it was quite clear that the people now
were generally better off than at the commencement of this century.
In cotton and wool the importation had greatlysincreased; and what
with the use of machinery the comforts of the people were in-
creased. In fourteen years the increase of tonnage was sixty-fold
to what it had previously been to our colonies, and he was glad
to think that ere long their condition would be materially bene-
fited. We had formerly a monopoly in our manufactures ; now
we had two great rival powers against us, and it therefore became
the more incumbent upon us to exert our utmost power to counter.
act it. We had great fluctuations, amongst which was machinery
against hand-looms, which were now about 240,000, and power-
looms in 1830 were equal to the power of three times 163,000.
Machinery was useful, take it in any and every way, for
women and children could earn something, whereas, in former
times, and in different trades, their labour would be unpro.
ductive. A very great change had taken place in the locality
of our manufactures in consequence of rail-roads, some from
fashion, some from other causes, and in illustration he would
mention the glove manufacture at Worcester. In the last year,
since the trade was open, there was an increase of one hundred and
forty-four thousand dozen. This was an extraordinary instance, and
proved the necessity of not relaxing the system of free trade. The
fashion had also its operation in other cases, say from shoe-buckles
to shoe-strings, when it was found that Coventry was benclitted at
the expense of Birmingham. The same character applied to our
Sheffield ware ; and it would be necessary in the change of cir-
cumstances to give every facility to our commerce. The American
tariff', amongst other things, called for the attention of the Govern.
ment. We could not command a general market; but it was
in our power to facilitate the means of the workmen's support. The
benefit societies would best prove what he meant to establish. Free-
dom of capital would overcome natural disadvantages, as might be
seen in the cases of the high-priced Americans, and the low-priced
inhabitants of India, with regard to the cultivation of cotton. Tak-
ing Alanchester as the centre of a circumference of thirty miles, the
wages varied from 20 to 5 shillings per week, so that in fact one.fifth
supported the other four-fifths when the latter were in a state of short
employment. Birmingham used formerly to be called the toy-shop
of Europe, and it still deserved that name. The workers were paid
by money, and by the piece; there were three divisions of that trade,
ibut unfortunately the workmen made no provision for the seasons of
distress. In Sheffield there were several classes of tradesmen, earn-
ing different sums per week, and it would be of great advantage that
they should all be put into a situation to meet the fluctuations of the
times. He would say nothing of the people of Wolverhampton, or
of the mining districts, than whom there was no more improvident
class of persons ; but his great object was to raise funds to protect
such persons against the miseries which ill-health and old age would
impose upon them. It might be objected to the general establish-
ment of benefit societies, that they would determine the rate of
wages: but as opportunities were given to the humbler classes to pre.
vent the fluctuation of wages, in that proportion would the work.
men become the more tractable. The alteration of the currency and
the price of corn naturally produced an alteration in the price of
wages ; but now that the same fluctuation did not exist, the chances
of disorder or combination could not exist. The system of in.
surance had greatly increased and improved in London, particularly
in the trade of tailors, and others. The carpet weavers of Kid-
derminster, sad others, came upon their fellow-trademnen for
support, when out of work; but the provision was only tem-
porary. He only asked for facility to prevent the contingencies to
which these industrious classes were subjected. He implored the
house to bear in mind the great advantage of attending to this sub-
ject—for in attending to the morals and the interests of the manu-
facturers, they would confer the greatest blessings upon the coun-
try. In proportion as the condition of the workman was elevated,
in the same degree would they be tractable, useful, and valuable in-
dividuals. He would now conclude by moving for the appoint-
ment of a select committee to inquire into the means of lesseaing the
evils arising from the fluctuation of employment in manufacturing
districts, and to improve the health and comfort of the working
classes dwelling in large towns.
Mr. MARSHALL seconded the motion.
Mr. CRIPPS said he did not mean to throw cold water upon
the subject; but be was afraid that the expectations of the
bon. member could not be realised. The depression in manufac-
tures in the northern and southern counties which had taken
place since 1846, would prevent the possibility of giving any effect
to benefit societies. And if such societies already existW.
would make against the argument of the hon. member (Mr. kilsneth
With regard to the tailors, they were perhaps the best pal 4 of
other tradesmen, and their funds were not supplied to support the
poor, but to ksep up the prices of their labour.
Mr. ROBINSON wished to know from what source the boa.

member (Mr. Shinty) arrived at a knowledge of the numbest of
dozens of gloves made in Worcester in any gives year ? Price rather
than quantity should form the decision upon this and other similar
quest ions.
The CHANCELLOR. of the EXCHEQUER wag afraid that
the object of the hon. member could not be realized, and for the best
of all reasons, that it would be impossible to provide against a con-
tingency, which was not susceptible of a fixed period. In friendly
societies, each member subscribed while in a state of employment,
and from his superfluities yielded to the support of his fellow-work-
men ; yet looking at the general condition of the state of wages,
and wishing to afford every facility for inquiry, he would not oppose
the motion, althottgh he feared it would not accomplish the object
which the hon. member had in view.

Sir 0. PH ILL! PS considered that the plan of savings' banks
would confer very great benefits upon the working classes of the
community. He thought that agreeing to the motion would tend
to benefit the condition of the labouring classes still more.
lllr. SLANEY said that when ravings' banks were first instituted,
they were considered as Utopian ; but a million of persons had been
since enrolled, and in savings' banks no less than 'Weal millions of
money had been deposited.—The motion was then agreed to.
Mr. S. RICE presented a petition from Dublin against the duty
on coals.—Ordered to be Lid on the table.