The Sun.
London, England, 1842-04-06 00:00:00

BARRISTERS (IRELAND).

Sir V. BLAKE moved for leave to bring in a Bill to
Ater the law relating to the admission of barristers in
Ireland. •
Lord ELIOT, in consenting to the motion, wished to
guard himself against any rniscunstruction. He had
,received no representation whatever on the subject, and
he trusted that h is consenting to the present motion would
not be construed into an expression of his approbation of
the measure. Ho did not think the measure was called
for, but he should reserve his opinion until the Bill
should be before the House.-
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.

ANNUAL INDEMNITY BILL.
On the motion or Sir G. CLERK, leave was given to
bring in the Annual Indemnity Bill.
THE FLOATING BREAKWATER

Lord INGESTRIE, in rising to bring forward the
, motion, of which he had given notice, for a cop.%
of the letters patent for England, granted on the 4th
July, 1838, to Joseph Needham Taylor, and also fir re-
printing the minute or paper presented by Mr. Bentham
to the Navy Board, on the subject of the Breakwater at
Plymouth, ordered by the House to be printed Feb. 18,
1812, said that it would not be necessary to trouble the
House at any great length. The Bill to which the motion
referred, viz., a Bill for the Formation of a Floating
Breakwater, on the principle for which Capt. Taylor
had obtained a patent, had been referred to a Committee
up stairs. He (Lord Ingestre) understood that the
grounds on which that patent had been obtained were
fallacious, and the widow and residuary legatee of
Mr. Bentham asserted that the principle had
been announced by that gentieman to the Navy
Board in the year 1811. With regard to the
latter part of the motion he should not press it, as he
understood that a sufficient number c.f copies of that
minute were already in existence. Ile should, there-
fore, merely move for a copy of the patent granted
to Captain Taylor, and a statement of the grounds on
which such patent was granted.
Captain PECHELL did not know what was the Noble
Lord's object in bringing forward this motion. If it was
to show that Captain Taylor was not the original
inventor -of the plan, or that the plan itself was not a
good one, it became him to make some farther statement
to the House, in order that those who advocated the
formation of these floating breakwaters might know
what his objections were. He found that in 1811,
Mr. Bentham, feeling annoyed at not being employed in
the construction of the Stone Breakwater at Plymouth,
suggested the plan of a floating breakwater on the same
principle as Captain Taylor's. The recommendation
was made to the Board of Admiralty of the day, and
consequently was not attended to. He thought that, in-
stead of crying down and putting aside the plan of Capt.
Taylor, the Noble Lord, as a brother officer of Capt. Taylor
should have promoted it. Mr. Bentham did oriiiinat€
a plan that would have cost a million less than the Ply-
mouth Breakwater, but Captain Taylor's was by no
means a copy of it. He hoped that the Noble Lord
would not press the motion.
Lord INGESTRE had no object whatever but to elicit
the truth. From what he understood, Sir Samuel Ben-
tham being, in 1811, Civil Engineer to the Admiralty,
was asked to give his opinion on the project of erecting
a breakwater in Plymouth Sound. Sir Samuel furnished
two, plans; one of them was a plan of a floating break-
water, being similar to that proposed by Captain Taylor.
Now, the representatives of Sir Samuel Bentham were
of opinion that Captain Taylor had obtained his
patent on false grounds, not having been the
original suggestor of the floating breakwater. The
object of the present motion was to • enable the House,
before a Bill that' was now before a Committee, passed,
to form an opinion as to which was the original inventor
of the breakwater. He (Lord' I.) meant no disre-
pect to the service in withholding his titles from
Capt. Taylor, for he (Lord I.) believed the usual form
was merely to mention Christian names and surnames.
He repeated that in moving for a copy of the patent, his
object was only to obtain those details which would show
the facts connected with the case in dispute between the
parties.
Mr. LABOUCHERE thought that this was a subject
which the House could not entertain, for they had no
jurisdiction over patents, If the parties spoken of by
the Noble Lord thought that they were the representa-
tives of the original inventor, their remedy was, not to
appeal to • that House, but to proceed by action in a
Court of Law. It was evident, therefore, that if the
Noble Lord carried his motion, he still could not ad-
vance his object, for the opinion of that House could not
decide any disputed right between the parties.
Lord INGESTRIE did not want the House t °judge
between the parties. He only wanted the House to
know who was the real inventor of the breakwater
before it was called upon to assent to a Bill to carry Cap-
tain Taylor's plan into effbct.
Sir CHARLES DOUGLAS, in supporting the mo-
tion, said that a Company had been formed upon the pa-
tent which Captain Taylor had obtained, and there was
now a Bill of Incorporation before. a Committe up stairs.
Now, as the House would have to adopt or reject the Bill,
he thought they should have before them every important
fact connected with the case, and those theta his Noble
Friend's motion would produce.
The motion was then agreed to.
ORDERS OF THE DAY.

Sir EDWARD KNATCHBULL having moved that
the 'Orders of the Day be now read, the Parish
Property Bill was read a third time; some clauses were
added, and the Bill passed.
Sir G. CLERK brought up the Annual Indemnity Bill,
which was read a first time:
CORN IMPORTATION BILL.
The House then resolved itself into a Committee of the
whole House upon the Corn Importation Bill, Mr,
GREENE in the chair.
Clause 9 having been put,
Mr. BARCLAY rose to move, pursuant to notice, that
it was not expedient to make any addition to the number
of towns from which returns are now made for the cal-
culation of the averages. The Hon. Member said that he
did not mean to express any opposition to the principle of
the measure of the Right Hon. Baronet ; and his only
object was to alter one of its details. He did not think
it was necessary for the purpose of attaining the
ob-
jects which the Right Horn Baronet had in view, that
any addition should be made to the 168 towns from
which the averages had hitherto been taken ; and if no
such necessity existed, it appeared to him that it
would be better to make no alteration in that part
of the existing plan. The only object of the Right Hon.
Baronet in introducing the change was to prevent frauds \
in the returns. But the Right Hon. Baronet himself had
stated that those frauds had been very greatly exagge-
rated ; and he (Mr. Barclay) agreed with him in that
opinion. He believed further that there had been frauds
on more than one side ; and that if some parties had
attempted to raise the price in order to reduce
the duties, there had been others who attempted
to depress the price of corn in order to raise the duty.
He believed that the frauds which had been committed
had been caused by the expectation of high profits, by
the parties making large purchases, but still those pur-
chases -were bone fide, and could only: be made at
considerable risk to the parties.—(l-lear, hear.)
He was confirmed is his opinion with respect to the
proposal of the Right Honourable Baronet, by the
speech of the Honourable Member for North Lin-
colnshire, that Honourable Member having stated
that in the opinion of many the introduction
of these towns would cause a depression equal to ss. a ,
quarter, whilst, in his own- opinion, it would cause a
depression of 2s. From a statement of the average prices
of wheat in 15 agricultut at and 15 manufacturing towns,
it appeared, that out of 54 weeks the average price was
much higher in the towns connected with commerce and
manufactures, than in those connected with agriculture.
If, as he strongly believed, any addition to the towns at which
the averages were taken was not necessary to prevent frauds,
and as the addition was calculated to excite some suspicion
that on one side the average prices might be depressed, and
on the other hand that they might be raised, he asked whether
it would be desirable, under those circumstances, to make the
proposed addition. If the effect of the addition of 139 towns
would be to depress the average prices to the extent of 2s. per
quarter, it was clear that to that extent the clergy would suffer,
whose income would be regulated by the former averages.
He would ask the Right Hon. Baronet how he would propose
to settle accounts with the clergy under th,,se circumstances?
Would he adopt the old system or the new one, or would he
adopt a two-fold plan, based partly on the former system of
averages, end partly on the present system, whereby 139 towns
were to be added to the present number? Every dlr.•
ficulty would be removed if the Right Honourable
Gentleman would strike out the 139 towns from
the schedule which he proposed to add. He was not actuated
by any hostility towards the Right Hon. Gentleman's measure
in making his present proposition, but while he would bow to
the decision of the House on the general principle of the mea-
sure, he could not alter then the view which he had before
expressed of a fixed duty being much preferable to any that
should be regulated by a sliding scale. He would conclude by
moving, " That it is not expedient to make any addition to
the number of towns from which returns are now made, for
the calculation of the average prices."
Mr. GREENE said that the motion of the Hon. Member
was informal, as it must be brought forward when the schedule
was under consideration.

The motion was then withdrawn.
Mr. CHILDERS said, that as he had a motion relative to the
averages he would now move it. He did no: mean to obstruct
the Bill, but he thought the point was one worthy the conside-
ration of the Right Hon. Baronet and the House. He did
not wish to prevent a greater number of towns from taking the
averages, if by that means they would be rendered more sound,
fair, and just ; but as these averages, if once passed, may never
be recalled, he thought it would be well to consider the subject
at that time. His object was that those towns should be intro-
duced into the new schedules, and that the averages should be
taken from those towns immediately, but that they should not
proceed to act upon those averages for the next twelve months,
but that the importation of corn should be regulated according
to the old system, so that they might he able to compare the two
systems, and discover if there were any substantial difference
between the two. It had been stated by Hon. Members on
both sides of the House that the introduction of these new towns
would reduce the annual average price of corn in this country,
and it would be most important to ascertain that point. The
Hon. Member for Somersetshire had stated that in his opinion
the change in the method of taking the averages would lower
the annual averages by at least 35. to 45., and that Hon. Mem-
ber was, from his connexion both with the agricultural and
trading interest, in the best possible position to form an opinion
on the subject. In his opinion the duty would be found very
heavy when they came to the higher rates of prices ; but if by
a lower rate of averages the difference should be still farther
increased, the infliction would be found almost intolerable.
He could not perceive any reason for retaining the
high figures of 70s. and 735., unless it was that being
the same prices as under the old system, the farmers
would be more ready to support the new one. Another
advantage of taking the averages, as he proposed, was this,
that if before next harvest they should require a large supply
of foreign corn, they would see whether there Was any ten-
dency to act particularly
in those towns where the averages
were taken, rather than those towns where averages were not
taken, and would be able to detect whether there was any
tampering with the averages when prices were rising. It was
proposed that the income tax should cease its operation in
three Years, and should there be a great change in the Corn-
laws, he thought, by an analogy, there ought to be a power to
change the averages at the end of a year. With these
._
obser-
vations he would move his amendment In substitution of
ooff
clause 29, That from the passing of this Bill, up to th
May, 1843, the duty to be paid on the importation of foreign

corn shall be regulated by the averages of those tower
which have hitherto made returns in accordance- with the
9 Geo. IV., but that from and after the Ist of May,
duties shall be regulated by the averages of all the townslOri
in the schedule of the present Bill, unless Parliament On'
the meantime otherwise direct."
Sir R. PEEL said, in fact, the proposal of the Hon.
Gentleman was to strike out the whole clause, exeellt;
word " and."—(Laughter.) The Hon. Gentleman of
thought the existing number of towns ought to be rata'-1
yet the effect of his clause would be to, throw out-
ought t
at least to move that the old towns from uhl'",„s
averages were taken ought to be retained. Certainly
tion
w worded in a very extraordinary manner.
don d
Mr. CHILDERS said, his wish was to have the elle:-
averages settled now.
The 11°
SR R. P.e.EL could not agree to the proposal.
oftie.
Gentleman suggested that, when corn reached the price
ond
or 68e. no duty shou d be imposed upon foreign cern; „ the
(Sir lt. Peel) wished to make a few. observations Ur-fthe
point. The proposal formerly made on the other sule,euer,
House was, that a fixed duty of Bi. should be imi 03cnn Itp
foreign corn, no matter what might be the price'
country, or how Unfavourable to the - harvest' iof
proposal, it appeared to him, would, when the P_l re
aroer
corn was high, operate very unfavourably for the co"_nlyi
By the measure which he introduced, there would he ctej
duty upon foreign corn of Bs. a quarter when the price iet:t;bh
734. ; and he had reason to conclude that, upon that r,lordt°
plan was preferable to that of the Opposition. With re behich
the proposal of an increase in the number of towns-from.:•fr,ie
the averages were to be taken, he had reason to believ:tio:
the communications he received, that it would work s „th
torily, and that it would produce no effect whatever reef(
averages. The Hon. Gentleman said that frit' oits
practised both ways—that they were practised r it:,
view to raise the price as well as with a view to defitelao
The Hon. Gentleman said they accu,ed the corn-den re
speculator with an attempt to raise the averages for the .1:01110
of bringing in foreign corn at a low duty. Nose that,blee
lion might be justifiable, but it would apply to 10°` ~,,ose
of men to try to depress the averages for the Pe'', 0'
reducing the return. But they could not set (;)rilet
justice against the other ; his (Sir R. Peer a) ° 'Foe'
widening the range of the averages was for the
pis
preveatßAßCLAYing all fraud. 41)0
Mr. rose to explain, but was me-
,
cries of order, in the midst of which he sat claim ll (0'
Sir R. PEEL wished to take precaution 0.0115*-Itly
He thought that the extent of the fraud had been 5
aggerated, more especially of late years, and his(Sir ke Oa'
object in adding to the number of towns, was to °roe of the
still more scarce. He relied on the gradual dectl,9
duty. He did not, attach more importance t° cultor
agricultural towns because they were the chief
towns, than to the fifteen manufacturing tnwe,.9:,ber '-
thought it would be seen that prices were "ftoivi'!'
the manufacturing towns than in the ag 'coltura,!l
rl J co
He wished to ascertain the precise average price Tole'
the country, and he did think that it was a ration!'olv
proceeding to take the ptincipal towns. He deewhatiheiB
jetted to the mode proposed by the Hon. Gentleman rot of rr
should be a double bet of returns, and that the nes sir "„'
turns should come into eperation a year hence, for
.a s re'
Peel) thought 'such a course would necessarily lead
eoebr;
newal of the late discussions on the subject: He di fiber "4j
lieve that the averages would be materially effected elouse,
by the proposition which he had submitted to the
therefore he must continue to adhere to it. geode'
Mr. HAWES said he understood the Right n yse
man to say that his object was to prevent fraud. 01;1
which had been raised for an alteration of the system°off',
the averages had been raised by those who were anl„oesn°4
an alteration in the average price of corn, and tbeit'itotl9
was, how far the Right Hon. Baronet had lent hill's' ho bee
object. - He had written letters to several person' wash's engaged in the corn trade, to ascertain what 0101,,
opinion with respect to the addition of the new towns, 'O.,
opinion was almost unanimous that the average price nohjecii,
lowered. A gentleman to whom he had spoken on tbefsoisi!,,
had remarked that the adoption of new towns was On infer!:„
most exclusively to districts in which the soil was of ar'coonn
quality. Mr. M'Culloch, in his work, had uiven the
of Kent, Essex, Suffolk, Hampshire, Rutland, Hertti'ureedl',,t
Berkshire, and Hereford, as the districts which Pre(„alii!;ee
best quality of wheat. and stated that the average 1,,5 rf
the wheat grown in Wales was inferior. Let them ; rat'i I
what were the -counties selected in which
,the
the towns for taking the averages was proposed tic!, ,5 th
In the county of Kent they added four towns, in r''''4,o 11'11
in Suffolk none, in Hampshire one, in Rutland one,,/,,
ford our, in Berkshire four, and in Hertford one. lornetto
now take the great producing counties. He should at
were great producing. counties in the south alni
is, to t;;,0
districts, in which the quality of the wheat was info! b totiai
grown in the counties he had just named, and in 01“„eee • qire
towns were added. In Lancashire there were th-sird,'",ter
added, and in Yorkshire there were fourteen. In
there were ten towns added, in Stafford nine, agt re is
pe
twelve. In the western and southern districts the Ono,
added, in Somerset four towns, in Devonshire tl' t
[the d
Cornwall four. Thus fifty-nine towns were added '"oeni
tricts in which wheat of an inferior quality was gill Pre(
only twenty towns in those in which the best, qualitL'sberhjert
duced. They were confining the bulk of the townsts,t,
list, where tie averages were to be taken, to those dis"-etee'e
~
wheat of an inferior quality was grown. He nog
..7d
the return of towns in the fifteen agricultural 31.3111101;;„
facturing districts. They left out London,
acommercial town, and added Liverpool, leaviog sw,l
where the highest price was obtained, while Liverf; ,Itet'os
the lowest pi iee was obtained, was added. —(,„001
They had not kept up the original proportion in th,`'';.,,i,tht
and the greater number were selected from towns wine thilti
of an inferior quality was grown. He confessed that '''`WbeAft
the proposed alteration would be against the public.
aa r
the effect. of fraud under the old sysiem ? It was atioctior‘
favourable to the public. The public gained in a rentiotief
price by the attempt to work up the averages. Hut het' lE:r,
new system the reverse would take lace, and if t.,,i
just they ought to alter the sestet and lower
.",hyti,
'fhe Honourable Member for Somerset had 'stated
present system of taking the averages would be equivael
;set"r,
4s. duty. He thought that the proposed scale of prlct thst
the present Bill, should be tried for a year or two, h°,,e,l°o
system of averages under the old should not be 'conent nri
it. The Hon. Gentleman did net ask-tbe Gaols/el
that
$,;(;1'
bring the present Corn-law 'into operation;
was, that the two systems should be tried tog,ether, ;00 le
that they might be compared one with the other.‘ t telt'r„s
Government afraid of putting its own system to tusthi,riv
(Cheers.) If so, they were right in the oppositioe sit
po3al. —(Cheers.) Before. he sat down, he woulaf,d
Right Hon. Gentleman to show that he had made a 4,
lection of towns from the districts growing wheat eff,,,ionwt,
quality, as he had from the dish iete growing wheat 0 'ids the'
quality ; and if the Right- Hon. Gentleman could Inn Iroil
then he (Mr. Hawes) would contend that the selectint.sirlOV
would have the effect of lowering the average 4 n?„,„e ble
would be contrary to the pledge which had been gt"esta,t
Right Hon. Gentleman when he first introduced the,erePoe
Mr.' DARBY said the Bill ought to be 01104;e filiet
whole.—lts object was to get rid of the mischiefs of ,leoplal
Cornllaws, and one of those mischiefs was the (11001
which it offered to speculators to force up the Orl4,orre,
at certain states of the market. The object of Liiiteo+,l
Bill was to prevent this from being done. By th beoil,' of
of the London dealers, the average were raised ~.„
they were in the country. Was the object of the tifur;td; ,O
her to keep up that system under which enorinon4 is 01
been committed? He altogether disputed the faciseteitill
Hon. Member as to the country districts and under the
cumetances the fair way was to take and
whole of
otr
together. He should oppose the motion. th*„
Mr. GLADSTONE said, before he proceeded
substantial allegations of the Hon. Gentleman, he °,l,°
aside the assertion that all that had been done hit-oes'.",,-f
the view of doing harm to the public. In a great
that kind, calculated to agitate the minds of largee,4 10
0,
interests throughout the country, it was exceedinguiof
in making any alteration, that it should be done onerd'iere
any alteration the House should make, it was exeeeeon
rable, unless there were very strong reasons to tbeitt
that it should be made at once.—( Hear, hear) thildetti'
Gentleman had complained that all the Governtnef, tha, tics
in proposing a change in the averages, was donerot l!e
went of the public. Now, the Government baudscnor.
against the prevalence, and, as fix as pr thr,
against the possibility of fraud.—(Cries of " "—that I',
The plea of the Honourable Gentleman wts'e .) the
frauds were in favour of the public.--( Hear, "ker,rog.b.ijoil
was the sentiment he expressed; he said that r"0,11coro!,
was great mischief in the frauds as they affeete" fie;
yet on the whole they told in favour of the public.
tree• of!,;
be a sorry plea, even if it were true, but was it ,
ptin' tMA
would admit that in their apparent effect of lowerine eer
if e
the frauds did seem to favour the public, but in sa) .tr
eas "(
did so favour the public, the Hon. Gentlenianryg pde
counter to all h,s own arguments against the °pat
What was the great mischief of the sliding scale? ,ttingor"
it speculators had a facility
of raising rices, and
coin in at the minimum of duty, and were thus Ivo; ;;
t'i'lt,
corn back instead of bring ng it to market. I,ll',teee'
tleman had referred to authorities. He (Mr. (31" ighr'j ;
refer to authorities which were entitled to great °'tescoogrie
opinion of those to whom he referred was, that, Ibe
change of three or four shillings, there would rie„e
of as many pence in the average prices? But let rho had tiL
the matter for themselves. He confessed that onoi;n',:t
with astonishment the statement of the Hon. Gender' oel'e
in the neighbourhood of the towns selected to be a 0, liQiot thj
old list, the wheat grown was titan inferior descrietit:ied
hardly have been more surprised had he heard it gosh tipoito
wheat was of a finer description ; there was
~,a9 Clef ",;,,
for the one allegation as for the other. The tinir;,e On
gave them eight counties, with which the nun' J-Jed!'itetobd
old list was 28, and the number proposed to be aseenineeso
The total number added all over the kingdom "‘'nr, Gi'ther
less than the old list. It appeared also to him O'llottele.eh the
that the selection of the Hon. Gentleman was • %111 to,
arbitrary one. There were 'several counties Toe
eri,
wheat grown was quite as fine as in those wee had 0' t 0
Hon. Gentleman. In Surrey three new tuwe'neel ;
eluded to one of the old list ; Worcester, three ofid Isst,4
one old ; Somersetshire, four new towns to °. „oat
Shropshire seven new towns and not one old 01' eeTerirro
in Staffordshire, that great manufacturing an, ighes'itert ,
county, where there was the finest corn and the f
there was not one single town in the old list, eoiet
,n
e new one eight were included ;so that, in et of
the
those five counties grew the finest cflegatien
country, and this would test the very rash al fl
Hon. Gentleman that there was a total of "yew, thelfsr4e,
Now he (Mr. Gladstone) would like to know,On. recio
Gentleman meant to substantiate his allegatl niece ''',Fs'3l,l
would be well to state what had actually take" i
t pee .3e
spect to this new list. The ,dajeet of it was, °riee of to co,
fraud, and to obtain more accurately the real
_rent was _ol€.o
the large towns, and the desire of the Governtr,,,st tfsthitiee
tarn a considerable number of towns of the. ta,.170
For that purpose they communioefat‘ehdt, sivaritah,biaineadi
of the Board of Excise, and they called an market)
place, to make out to them a list
subsequently to make a correction of that linstle 0;0
to regulate the list of agricultural towns,
_oovr": this "I.go
the manufacturing towns on the other. Pi
rico ,
rt of the fore.;
tpo:ewnnsarbreaitnigve4.
3. Torhse3l:lhonig.hGerenitnlerntia„ni
nelpittsnkuecoielluPrina,
martial towns than in the agricultural pa
_,,er rtt*
and he qucted a return made last SePteestr,ate,a.at7, 41.•
his proposition. When he ( Mr. Gladstone)
s
Why, sotto, thousands of averages had be
,a,
hpaatrti
sieturlaaer period,
particular
fitchuei
aHr Hun.
period n,t,lo.atr, ;0;00: Atahrre,
bntai
t °n
wouldo the
notHo showse,a
thend emreenws,a,s
ffneoett
rat occasions in particular markets, b •specud 10,10;
thate vvofeanst Ficeistutrohn/er;
sl
than that the prices of that comity should b aa,freter
rir
titular time, and nothing could be more ludi,ero_n
support t(l,innitisa.ne
ottlinbu:;-ee(solleievt;ll,e(.ll
prices irioafnhoitishevriepwa,rtt..
thTehreetlulornns. Guie(nl
the course of prices in the 15 agricultural tiny"- on the
and the 15 manufacturing and commercial towns °" to 0;
Now the principle of selecting those fifteen torsos we the ,r
the largest markets. The Hon. Gentleman b! ever'.
vernment for including Liverpool, where very I°.o, I'4g
prevailed instead of high ones. This censure., te"very
against his own proposition, which was. that '" e:o7e
town the range of averages was necessarily, e
rLainvgeerpvoero I
yo proved that
ftohra
nisntavneerey, largewhen townstre thuhile4bs.a.s3ecrrnii!dArs:;Ei
c'Ansumption of corn imported from foreign places' it h5.".„0.0
foreign corn was not entered in the returns when Geptio"
effect of keeping down British corn. The Hon.