The Sun.
London, England, 1818-03-06 00:00:00

P'ET'ITIONS RESPECTING PIS

• Mr. l'unt-ti,s, before entering upon, the Os*.
trot) of whieli he bad given !uke- for this dAy.,
i»,)yed that the several> petition, presented to rloc.'
[louse from Mancliestl:r, and .various
duals, relative to the employment of Spies, he ell'
tered-on he Journals. as'sread, .
'Fire petitions were entered as read.
Mr. rtim.34,-;;sraill,: that he wished it 10.11? an'
ders ,
!ood.in the outset. of what he had to'otfer to'
the House on this ocCasion„ that lee did not mea'l/
to pass any encominnion those hit:err-4u ora:or9
whit had ,cent so busy yarious parts cat the contr.'
try. His, opinion or these persons might be
gathered from what he had lately said in the %Val
of advice to one of those p4.1-sons. 'iuce he liaa
come to town that person had applied to him, ott
which he 'advised tam not to concern him:sell'
about polities or the affairs or the Stare,. hut 10
attend to his tauiily and his business•. With re"
spect to 11)e suhiect tti which he Wish.sd to im-
mediately to, call .the'attention of the House,
thought it proper tosay, that Ire was, aware Clac
a great pot [ion of tbe,people had been in a gre'At
state of ferment; and that the most important anti
most difficult queitbaislrad been e.iscussed by half--
starved labourers and manufacturers. Such 'l'
suite of things teas so dangerous,. that it ottglit/
necessarily to attract the attent'ion, of Gayer"'
ncent. It it was necessary to employ spies, Ilief
ought to be watched most narrowly; for it auttsg
be evident that they,hadthe power, to a dreadfij
extent, not only of discovering., but of creatinter
danger. That danger was ..mite'lt greater whet'-
tht.!y were emplo3 ea among. the lower orders boll,
if they were st:m among the higher classes of so'
ciety ; for among the tatter (bey were not likcic
to acquire much ;:atence, but, with' the formee
their superior infottnarion was likely to, give then/
•ratich infitLqice„.and so toin,ll:e: thern be chosen 1,5,
leaders ttijd directors, and promoters of schemes (4
violence which would not. otherwise have bee!'
thought of: It. ,wli, with much satisfaction.tl
he WaS authorised by Sir. John liyog to statei thOL.
Lou spy hall ever been employed by that gallant
officer, nor bad any such ever been in his car'
riage on any occasion whatever, and farther, 11'4
he never-had ,any communication with such ,clo'
racters up to the '2l9tit of March. Whoever ,nevi
the g,IILInt 6ft:Cei. tcIto11: he had Mimed, Must kno``f
that his,hutnanity was as great as his;cottrage, 9""'
that on what:vet military service it might be l"
'ditty to be employed, Ire never was forgetful °
what was• doe to the subject of a free state Fl
:hod all along acted tinder the infittermes of the`e.
feelings:, and owing to that had more than.once
cur red the di4leasure of the Magistracy, by deelie
ingto comply avid, their too e:eat ea,:erne<s to crfl
ploy the military iii the suppression of any distial7#
tune. With tesiSect. to tire 11101i0I3 witlch Ire ii•v

1

-I
c
too

kneo
kno`l
e, an"
be bilo
Ful
W
these

ce i"'

ec;; le

O ef(11

.O)J.D#

he itl'

1 t
•I`ltllled to subtnit to'the House , he was ant oware
'bow his
l:laj,.!sty's Ministers could oppose it with-
out
showing disrespect to the 11:•ports of the Se.
Cret Committees. It tvas stilted Report
°I the Committee of the HOimse imf "Lords. last
''ear, alluding h.) the conduct of Spies; that they,
in some instances, encomtra.ged'crimes Which they
were intended only co prevent. The smile thing
"'as stated in various petition's presented to the
-"nose, and time persons who stated it offered to
vlgrolettetel l
the 'extent
"eLev stated of
t'eta ket
Mi-
nisters was furnished by hired spies and informers,
anti agents of the Pidice• What spi,:S.wete -was
2'cr pretty well known. Were Police. agents
11Pr.e creditable ? -11Tere there not instances of
tuele agents inciting Unfortunate individuals to
eotnmit crimes in the hope of participating in the
ewattl for their conv,iction ?—Peritap,s the House
.:ITAS not aware of the amount of these rewards ;
:rhat there were instances of three hundred pounds
beefing given frir a. single Tyburn ticket,' He did
mean to say that the disturbances the
itortliern counties were to be attributed solely to
the agents of Government. He did not mean to
say that its the home-11;e population of Lancashire
a'anng the 900,000 inhabitants which it contain;
,e'im there Might not he found some ready enough
If: engage in mischievous projects. -Bat ail the
thte respecting time state'ot Lancashire showed,
liotwit ['standing the efforts of the spies, only
' t'Persons were hound ready to engage imp their
it'sigus. Ail that was woofed ).va4 a strict, rigid,
t,));1 impartial inquiry, to show them where the
tlt of these designs properly 'attached. lie did
itot mean to Say that his Maiesty's"Miimisters could
iave treated a plmit,•if the elenicnts of a plot had
t(4 previously existed. But this he would say,
Cat the-plots wet e most convenient to Ministers,
diverting the public mind from plans of econo-
, ml and retreticimment ; and having boen thus con-
. center,!, it tvas very natural that Ministers should
1-"nle forward to screen those agents who had
It'en so useful in fomenting these plots. lie coo-
t 4
'l'qed by moving " time House, taking into
"fmasideration time Reports of the Secret Cons-
' /111ttees of time last Session, and the Report of-the
mmq the Committee, communicated to this Mos!:
23d June last„ so far as related to the en-
i()"r4geimmt;nt afforded to dkaffection by persons
;4 the -employment -of Government ; and also
4king into consideration the allegations in the
!Melonsi petitions upon the saute subject, thought
it l'ecessary that an Inquiry should: he institutedlH° practices of so alarming a tendency."
11.. F. -RoBtNSON said, that since lie bad the
itotiommr, of a seat in this 1-lonse, li did tmot.recol-
iect any instance of a more extraordinary proceed-
rl'; tilito that of the Hon,aentlensau xvimo brought
t (4,varil this motion. The lionse lotti,t recollect
* ,
parade with which the subject was first brought
Itn''Var(l7---the tart and paramount importance
vMich was attacitetl to it by the Gentlemen on
time opposite long and 'mi.,
tL i‘lte detailsintO which the lion. Gentleman him-
-f had entered *Ton the subject, and yet after
all Ibis, what had he- now brought ;for ward The
/lion Munchesttr, upon which the tube
was nraialy tonwhed, was couched in vague,
."'4411 general terms. it affected; indeed, as
113P'aitt an air as if it represented the sense of
t:e Itvitolgpopulation of Manchester and its neigh-
-411.n00d. although in fact it was only signed by
I%,velitY-six persons,—(Hcar !)—it stated that
they had instittited a light inquiry into .all time cir-
NtnstAliCeS compmeheuded in time petition ; and it
the jjottse the favo.4 to:state. that the result
.;:r this iniptiry was,, that'no treasonable designs
N 4,1 been harboured, and no atrocity projeetad in
llttchester, but by hiremi snit:- and informers
b,f (30Yerntnent. . :Such Was the general statement
the petitiovers: But they did .not deign to
ite the forma stir mode of their inquiry, nor the
totlntis Oil ''S hid) IteV cameto 'th nis coclusion,
(/' the species 'of evidence which-they were pre-
1,
• tea to. bring forward, if the inquiry for wimich
'Y wished was -granted. The lion. Geidle-
44111,himselt was well a ware of thesedeficienciei;
ell(' therefore lie opened the case of the petition-
tir3 vrith his elahorate.comments upon the peti-
-1;411, and his minute (retails of facts, whit!) he
i`."'Wsed _to sitbstantiate, and which he gave no-
tee he intended to call upon time House to 'give
ioni opnortunity of proving. But when be
Oil that he could not follow his statements
Proof. he saw that he most changeliis ground.
tlll !lieu it was that the lion. Gentleman,-with a
faCe, can down to the Hove to. alter the
t‘it"l'e of his notice ; for cite purpose, as• he stet-
°l' making it more precise; but, in point of-
-1:1, completely to abandon the gromicl. which !me
taken. ----- (Cheering on the Ministetial
mit,(nches !)—Amid why ? Was it not because he
1.1"4 knew that the stories of the petitioners could
141tIthe supported ; that the ground which he had,
could_not be -maintained ? Only let- the
(fti'e recollect the elaborate speech of time Hon.
tielliletnan when be presented the' petition. and
I: long story about a man of the name of Dew-
!tuh'rst, who had been carried to General Byog-iir
1.1:t officer's gig;' and_ qabout another man of the.
'e of Lotriax, who he said was a hired spy.,
t had the Hon.' Gentleman .no to say to
te'es" w
stories ? Si) far as General Byng was can-
11..tned. he had now told the Kull) ; all the .rest
wes a fabrication..—{Loud cheers !}--The' whole
that storys was false.—(Loud cheers. !)-eNay,
ratan of the name .of . Dewirimrst • was.
I:wn so General livitg or to Governntent. As to
(I,rtinx, the Hon. Uentleman most now timow from.
reral Bytig that that man was no spy ; or it
14:;,11011. Gentleman did not know it. before, he
tio'W it now.--(1-1ear, hear, from the
!)'--Whateyer schemes Lomax was coneertred
q vvkatever atrocities -Ise contempl.ated, lie rlici.
11'
a" a conspirator, and not a spy. It was taste
)
l( tit °o the 17th of M n arch this ma wrote n letter
tOl, Sidmouth, offering to commonicate
1
; this letter was not answered. On
'2Bth of March Lomax was arrested with seve-
diic
(„niers, and after being exatnined was released;
there ended the whole communication be--
ip tent I.4nmax and the Magistrates, or the Govern-
mlr)tme T heretmeheretme lie affirmed that all„timat, was
by Lomax Was done by him as a con.spirat or,
IC Pot as'a spy---a spy he never was, 'Thus,
those two cases broke down under the .Hon.
wiH) them Went
et
pheetiettieodni.t
tiZlrt;lnan,' and
"` Was due to the rigid inquiry of

cars, and 411 possible reason. for i'eferenig the case
to a Committec.—(Hear, hear, hear !)—The pe-
titioners stated that oot hitt atrocious etas pro-
itosed but !sett tile petitioners them-
selvt 8, and. theauentorable .speech of the Ilottour-
able Gentleman', admitted that atrocious proposi-
tions hadlieen matte, althorgh‘ it was, said they
were rejected with scorn and horror. It this
Were true, why did not the Petitioners denounce
the persons who inatlesocis horrible propositions ?
—(Lund cries of Hear, hear!)—As to the Petition
of Bamford; it 'stared that it was through; the in-
formation ut Lomax that he .was arrested : now
the warrant,.ot the Secretary of State against
Bamford, on which he was arrested, was dated
the 20th of Marcit'; Lomax was arrested on the
preceding day, and gave' her informatiOn till his
examination, after beiog arrested on the 28th 411--
June ; so it was to be judged 'what credit was
dire to the assertion that he was arrested ori _the
information of Lomax, for the 'thing WA's
.considering'. the 'date of the Warrant
There ivere two otber.Petitions, one from Mit-
chell and one -from Scholes. Mitchell's contained
an account of lirs connexion with Oliver, to which
rite vet y date of 'his : arrest, if there Were no-
thing else, proved that no credit .was, due. But
Scholes, in his Petition, told a very, dilfetent
story, and gave some infortnation.relative to ;NI it-
chell's objects. "Scholes. stated positively , it, his
Petition, that Mitchell wrote its his own hand
from'Scholes's house letters appointing meetings;
No matter which of the two Petitions were to be
believed, both together shelved shaleiently what
bad been the conduct, and what was the charac~
ter of the Petitioners.
.lint besides these, there
was another worthy Gentleman of the same itn-
maculate character with Mr. Francis IVard.--
The person to whom he 'alluded was Mr. Haines,
who professed in Iris Petition, a g7eat regard for
religion, and whose petition, by
ahe way, was
written in the Same hand. with that Of the re-
spectable Mr Wald. but this Mr. Haines, it un-
fortunately happened, bad been guilty of perjury.
—(Hear, hear !)—ln }SIG, two wen, Towit and
Slitter, were tried for tiring at a man its a trame-.
breaking disturbance. TOwn aviS condemned ;
Slater acquitted, on. account of an.alibi proved by.
Haines. lint, in the mean time, further evideuce
against Haines was product!, and a: the next
Seisimis he was tried for the Minor 'offence- of
leathe-breaking;, at the very time and place where
the former Crime was' committed; of which he had
been acquitted by an. alibi, anti on .this second
trial he ,:leaded guilty ; thus adinitting tire per-
jhry of Haines. Sod' then Were the Petirions
upon which this motion was fouoded Such were
the Petitions which the Hon: Gentleman moved
should be referred to a Constnittee—(NO, no !
from Mr. Phillips,)—At lean 'that reds rlie mo-
tion of, which he had give`n not ice—(Loud cries of
Hear, hear !)—at least these Vetitioos were the
grOunds of the motion,_ else why din rite Hon.
G.‘,•otlentan set cut haVint-, them-read ? The
Petitions were all false ; therefore he tailed upon
the House, in behalf of a calui»niated Government
—in hellish ola calumniated Magi,4rtley—oh'be
halt of the sacred
.names of truth and justice,
to reject this motion.—(Load chee-riug.),
Mr. F. Donoeas said, that-the Hot,. Gentle-
man who spoke last otsly pro-ved that Dewhtirst
had no: been in Geueral liyng's gig. Although
Lomax was dead, he had proofs of that person
being deeply implicated in fomenting the. disturb-
ances —(Calls of where ? where ? front the Minis-
terisl had indeed been arrest-
ed, but then he was almost immediately released.
It might be very true that Haines was perjtared,
but who was ? There was no Pet itiontront
him before the House, As a proof that for the
three months the state of the country did not
justify the continued detention of iudividuals, he
referred to Ow collectiou of Newspaper
paragraphs which the Committee Ital Chosen to
dignify by the name of a Report.. He contended
that the only part of the country Where any thing
like an insurrection had hrokeo out, -was that
which had been the theatre of Oliver's machina-
tious. What spirit must it Cut have given to the
diacontented, to be told that a connexion, of which
they had no idea, existed het wee,' them and the
metropolis, and
,that :70,000, men were ready to
march-. to. their support. It Oliver and rhis col-
leagues, having exceeded their instructions and
!towels, were protected by .Ministers, on those
Ministers 'artist, fall the is hole responsibility.—
Thtts much; however, had been proved, and he
hoped the House Ivould con•ider it deeply, that
they could not sutpend. the Habeas Corpus with-
out introdneisng the system of spies and informers,
,and that tTratiny could not he established in Eng-
land without its concomitant trails of privAte
treachery and public vice —4le acknowledged that
informers might be necessary, but their conduct
teas different from that e;.spies, trim going amongst
those by who:a they were not known, must
assume stone character, and make unfounded
and dangerous re.orestattations, iii order to
gain their confidence. What could the triode
country think when they saw the Noble
Secretary of State for the Home Department,,
a man remarkable for his morality and religion,,
entering into a reciprocity of good offices .with
r.ffians such as those, and prostituting his Am-
rality and• religion to protect them ? Woold it,
not Aake_a way from the respect due_
.to Isis ratili
And character ? ‘Vould.it not encourage .lower.
individuals, exposed to constant temptations, to;
procure their daily bread, to follow the exan,Ple
given from so high rod digoilicd a quarter ? Would
not the police officeritave his Oliver, and appease'
his,o tvn conscience by referring to what the Nol4e.
'Secretary -(1 done ? IVould he not'stty,'.ttiat. if
:indivithials had suffered innocently, yet they had
.the.intention of crime ? .As.to what was of
a system of prevention, it was, incompatible with
the BrifiSh Constitution. Prevention Would often
'be the punishment of the innocent, whilst
punishment, accordiug to tire. present nnule,
could only be the reward of the criminal. He
did not accuse Ministers of de'signedly ettiplciying
means to produco insarredion ; but he accused
them of casting tirebrauda amidst combustibles—
of receiving information with a perverted hips—
of calling insurrection what Was Mere sedition ;
and of reading a letter to the House, and keeping
hack another: All these., were sufficient grounds
for iutu the inquiry which ba Finn. Friend
proposed.

Mr. BLAqUir.TRN ton'tettited that tine
pteser,ted by the Hon. Gentleman did not express
the 'sentiments of the. respectable inhaititants of
Manchester, 285 cif Whoirt (he-Was understood to
state) had already signed a•Connter•declatatiOn.
He then Ica& a: letter signed by three Manchester
magistrates, and written'to refute the .allegations-
made by the flon. Gentleman (Mr. Phillips) in
.his opening speech, when.presenting the petition.
The letter stated that. that speech had- not only
been republished at Manchester, but printed on
separate sheets, and sold at a price calcidated to
secure its cirCulation.-.(Hear, hear 1.)-*It..then
explained ihat several legnisitions had been'pre-
sented to the Chief. ;Magistrate of that town,
signet) by some hundreds of lite loWer classes
only, and desirinza meeting to be.called.. That
the reqnest had been rejected, but an intention
expressed td do every thing possilitesfor the relief
,of the inever orders. That subs'eriptions had
consequently' been. set on foot, .and
,that their
amount had been higher than on a'n ft; riner
That seditious pamphlets had thetrheen
imlustrionslycirculaterl, one of which in partici'.
lar justified all the ethirniitieS of' the French 'Re- •
volution under the.plea of necessity. That' two'
or three meetings hadrhen been held in the fields 1
without,a.ny interference On the part of the police
officers ; that those meetings (tad not hceii called
by 'spies inforthersr, and that no information
had been communicated to Government, brit what
was authentic and important.
Mr War. CoUIieTN.AT could not see on what
grounds the Home was called ()poll to enter into at.
inquiry, at a time .when the conn•ry was drawing
tai a close of those transactions which had certainly
been disastrous, but the issue of which' was, so
much more 'favourable than some months r ago it
could have been anticipated. When the•allt•ga-
lions contained in the petitions had- turned out to
be unfounded, the Hon. Gentleman had'said his
motion should proceed. on the general sense of the
country. The wit the wets tltuy reduced .to a mat-
ter of opinion. He thought the sense of, the
country was very different from what the Hon.
Gentleman had represe.tited, and his opinion was
pretty well supported bY What had just been stat•
ed respecting the sentiments of the iwitabitants of
Manchester, 'the .very spot whence the petition
proceeded. •He contended, that the burden of
proving tile necessity of inquiry rested with those
who called for it, and that they had not yet made
out 'sufficient grounds bin going into it. He did not
think it inconsistent with the British Constitution
to prevenr.ollences,. and. he conceived that the
tneasures adopted ‘by Miui§ters had produced that
effect. •

Lord LASCELLES, on comparing the speech of
the Hon. Mover, when he had presented the Pe-
tition, with that which he ha.d made this night,
could not help thinking that he had abandoned
the whole of his case, and must feel that he was
not likely to be strongly supported. His Lordship
then referred to what-had been .said respecting
General; ilyng, who bad been rightly represented
as uniting in hih;sdt the General and the Citizen,
and whose. Conduct had been a pattern of iirn-
dence;moderation,,anil activity. To that officer,
not only' the ihanks of the country were clue, but
those of the deluded men themselves, for it was
his. vittiLikteer which bad prevented the thisfortnnes
by whielt they might other-Wise haVe-beett over-
taken. As to spies, be. abhorred them ;as sin-
cerely as the Hon. Geniletuan, and agreed that
they ought no! to 'be employed to conSey it mass
of conilmstibles, but to girt information, and pre-
vent that mass from exploding. Having- seen
mush of the _evidence, he must say that a great
portion of what was attributed to Oliver was
mere clamour, and fhtitif his conduet tended to
excite the h.pes of the discontented, it was with-
out the knowledge, and contrary to the intentions
of the Government.
_ Mr. Pumurs explained.

Lord MILTON conceived that the Report of the
Secret Committee,
°and the •Petitions before the
I-louse, formed sufficient 'grounds to justify in-
quiry. The conduct of Government' was' extra-
ordinary ; they allowed the House to inquire into
every thing else'but the conduct of 01,0- spies.--:
Now, if there was an engine of Government which
the House should view with „jealousy and suspi-
cion, it should be the eniployment of persons of
such a description. Lir believed! Oliver had acted
as a match to a train of combustible matter. He
'had gone down. as the -London Delegate, and .by-
the-bye Government knew it, for they had given
previous notice in the country that he would pre.,
sent himself as such, and as such should not lie
arrested. 'llae real fact was, that Ministers
.were afraid lest those transactions slitinld be in-
quired into, and it s!onlir be seen bow improvi-
dent they had been, and how ready to listen .to
the tales of persons whO wished to curry. their,
favour, and whom they no,;, wished to protect,
.not 'only front the effects.of Parliamentary inYe's-
tigation, but iron the operation of the
Lord SrSr,tNLBY, in giving his vote fvr the mo-
tion, stated that be did not accuse his Majesty's
Ministers of having employed spies for the pur-
pose of creating insurrectio.r.. He believed them
to have credited the information which they !dad
received, but blamed them for not inquiring pro-
perly into the nature of the -sources 'Whence it
flowed.

. lUi. 13P.NNET:said, be had sources otinforma-.
lion more correct than those of Ministers,
.and
l'had witnesses by whom he ahoiibl; be able to
prove the falsehoOds and infamy of the Ghirerti-
;Meta spies, awl their ;itlempts to stir up insurrec-;
tiou. Instead of coining there, like some of the
Ministers, with dt.;ad Men's talei,-to convict the'
diving, he should bring witnesses of res.pectable,
characters, who had nor ken i.itplicated in any.
of the transactions in question. These persons
would give a hist'ory of the campaign' made last
summer by Oliver, under the -auspices ,Of the
Home Secretary, if they were admitted to tbebar
of that "louse ; and then there- could be but one
verdict, and that would he a verdict of guilt
against Ministers and their agents; Ile siontid •
prove ' that Oliver, hwl caused the me.rting , at
Thornhill Lees, and that persons bad been u, just-
ly taken up on his information. He Irad a biter.
front a Gentleman, who was ready to prove, that
lie hOard Oliver say, it was of no use to 'look to
the House of,Coinnions for redress ;
,but that the
peopif mist depend on their physical force, and
that should be a great crash. It was a very re-

. ,
~. . . .
markabk circumstance, that the very instant Oli.
vet. wititdiew'hiinsrlf frogo the H.,-ces wbert, L0n-
.... • •
s/iiraries and i‘ilsort-ectiolis were said to have pre.
~.
vailed, all was peace aoLl quiet, as it it 'were by
enchantnient.. . .

RATtatasT observed, that the Han. Gentle.
lotan,Opp'osite hadoot named his witnesses, whose
innoceime he vouched for; and he (.b.tr„ B.) had a
right to sof-3,015e that th.y were impliewed as writ
Has the-people who itad beet; 'taken up. How ccithl
`they Ii the got their information ? Muit tit y not
have teen- preent at the meetings of the disafa
fected pet sons? aiil, tltereiore, arty must have"
had souse share in the. deliberations. 'the Ho-
nOurahle Gentleman's 101°0060o; :then, tnttst
come from .sPi,es: Of his own, who trete just as
muCh deserVimi; of credi.r as the tii-es_ot Govern.
titent. It wasttie ditty (.o(46vernm, to avail them-
selves of the information gi%e,t sty spies. Here Mr.
13. quoted •the opia,ion of Chiet Justice int
the time of•Kiltg and. of Chief Justice
ti•Yre; in 1794, to,show• that it was alWays tteces..
Siiry for the safety of-^a
state to enwlity spies, and.
that the evidence of. stich men WAS admissible in.
Cotirti of jitstiee. With•reg;ard to Go—
ventotetq had no reason to suppose that-he lust
ever forfeited his Clatter as a respectable inch-
vidual.--Govertnneut might have acted ou the in-
'formation of one witness in taking 'men up
then they et;uld not be tiled for treason withonc
the -evidence of two witnesses. On :the 'whole,
he oli:tint;iiedtheresivas no ground foe the pre-
sent motion. . .

Mr. W. SMITH declared, that before the lreport
of the 'Committee of last Sestion, it came to his
Vmuwleuge., that not only the evidence; but that
the moral character of. Oliver hadl been im-
peached; and that information he had laid before
the Secret Committee. He had 'stattf, and he.
could now pinve, that. Oliver had been guilty 'of'
a series of frauds upon his employer. lie had
'witnesses' to prove the fact. The witnesses
who 'could prove this were four in (lumber; they
stated there, was no Man who could miS up so muck
cleverness and plausibility, with a total disro.
lard to truth-and principle. One Of these wit-
nes,ses was in one of the first commercial Concerns
in London ; the other was his - son ; the third
was a respectable solicitor ; and .the-fourth was
Oliver's employer, who had in 1812 preferred font-
isidicunents against that man, but withdrew
them afterwards, because it was more suitable to
his, private interest, and that was the only blam'e-
able act. done by 'the' employer. • The charges
against ,Oliver had come before an arbitrator;
-who, in his award, declared that
.by false entHes
and other- frauds. Oliver had taken away 305/.
front his employer ; which sum, the, arbitrator
awarded against bint.• In the course of ten years,
he had, small errors mule on his own %ide, con-
verted tliat money to his 'met) use. 'the. name of
the employer was RustalLa carpenter bhd buildcite
Another circumstance stated by Nilson, was, that
Oliver had.brought'forward his own daughter to
make a false oath before, the referee; and that
his daughter afterwards came to ,install, and de-
clared to him that she swore falsely, and that
her father. made her swear falsely. Atter theSt;
facts, which could.be proved, it was impossible for,
him not to support the motion for inquiry.
Mr. BkTIJURST Said that 'lnstall, the employee'
Of Oliver, had. been •cothpelled by the arbitrator
to pay the wht!le,costs of the tour itedictm,ent;
and that he (Riiiiidl). had the •secutity oftwo .per,
sons for any deficiency that might be awarded
against Oliver.• Respecting the danghter, the
Right •Honourable.Gentleman read the,minutes•of
berexasnination, which stated, that Rustell took
her father's books ..anti papers away, and he ar-
gued that this exathination affOrded nothing lit
proof that her father had suborned her. When
the businesS was brought forward in the Court of
Kiug.'s 'Bench the rule against Rustall Was 'di's.-
Charged with costs, Oliver 'undertaking•-not to
firing another action..

- Mr. W. SMITH replied, that.he was confident,,
it this Case was investigated before a 'Committee,
it would turn out to be just as he had staled. ,
. Mr. TIERNEY said, the question was, not whee
ther spies and informers werelo be emp!oyed by
Government, but ‘vbet her such spies awl informers'
as were'now descrinvd should be tolerated by die
votes' of the House. in the decision they had
given respecting the reports of the two Coni-
mittees. .There were :twenty-five persons, all.'
of good character,: who were ready t 9 pro-
duce testimony: as to three spies having been
employed by .bovetnment. SuppoSiOit lqii-
ebell and the other petitioners to be men
of bod cliar:icter, (he did not knots whether
they were or not) they were not incompetent to
give ev;dence: they were witnesses as admissible;
as Castles, who had bten.bronglit forward to take,
away the lives, of five persons. lior there was
one of the petitioners whose eharaCter lie knew.
.to be good ; and that was Scholes. Now the
question here was not whether spies ought or
ought not to be employed, bat whether such
fouous spies as those who had been mentioned,
lie, could not help :reprobating the system of
spies and ininrlO's which had grown up
among us, and which was disgraceful tolbe
country. The ColleetiOn of the revenue was aS-
si,:ted•by liordes of informers, who Were vi'Tat chink,
aml *spying
sitito men's, donkestie 11 fairs. it one
ot these were to come to a 'gentleman, and induce
him to return to the assessor a less number of
hors:.s than he actually .kela, and after entrapping:
the gentleman. into his, :laud Upon the revenue
give information against ititn, and get part of the
penalty, wood not such a wretch be Ceprob.ited
-by every body ? What'llifErenee', then, was there
between hint and Oliver, who had,endeavoured to
entrap men into the comm,issjon of crime ?--it
was said;that Oliver caused no mischief. Was it
no dating teischid *hen he represented himself
as a delegate from 20,000 men, ready to rise in
arm; ?—The names of the:evidence to sopport.his
own friend's statement wire called for by, the op-
posite side, why did thesr' not *give the names of
tlesvidenFe examined before•the Secret ComMitA
tee ? lie was sure,his 1-lon.,Friend would .matte
good his-caie. 'The Ministers. refused an investi-
LOrion because they knew• it would tuin out tO their
thiativantage. ''here twist be soniething'in the'
bark-.ground which they didnotchoose to discover.
But could they indeett believe, that this Method
o I meeting tills question would4iut rather augment