The Sun.
London, England, 1829-02-13 00:00:00

refuse to depart after the first two magistrates had declared
the assembly to be illegal. Nay, more, it was made law-
ful for any two magistrates, within whose jurisdiction
such illegal assembly sltould be held, to issue their warrants
against such offenders, to proceed against them summa-
rily, to convict them, either nit the view of one magis-
trate so present, or on the oath of ere• or more credible
witness or witnesses, and to sentence them to an imprison-
ment of three calendar months for a first offence, and to
an imprisonment of twelve calendar months for a second
or any subsequent offence, without any right of appeal
whatever. What signified, then, the responsibility of the
Lord Lieutenant, if any two magistrates who happened to
be present, no matter how factious or partial they might
be, could bring before them and convict on the view of
any one of them, any- person without appeal, whom
they might choose to suppose had attended an illegal meet-
ing, put down, not by themselves, but by the two magis-
trates selected by the Lord Liateenant? Suppose, for in-
stance, that a Catholic justice should be present when an
Orange Association, or a Brunswick Club was put down
as illegal by the two magistrates selected by the Lord Lieu-
tenant.; and 'Summie that he should have a desire to harass
and oppress any individual, who fiyr souse reason or other
had become obnoxious to him. All he had to do was, to
have that individual brought before himself and another
magistrate ; and then he could say, in spite of all the other
individual's asseverations to the contrary, " I saw you at-
tend at such a meeting ; don't contradict me. I saw you
there ; I convict you on my own view ; and you shall go
to prison for three months, if it is your first offence, and for
twelve months, if it is your second ; and you shall have no
appeal against my conviction." He had put the case as of
a Catholic justice against an Orange associator, for as they
had just heard from his Hon. Friend the Member for Lime-
rick, the Catholic Association was at the moment at which he
had then the honour of addressing them, dissolved, and there-
fore the case of an Orange justice against a Catholic associator
could not occur. But other cases of a similar descrip-
tion might occur ; and he was bound to see that the con-
stitution was not violated in other Associations. He had
put the case, he repeated, of two Catholic Justices, acting
either on their own view or on the information of some
other Catholic, prejudiced against the Brunswick or Orange
Clubs, led away by a zeal which he could not controul, and
swearing that he had seen the Brueswieker attending a
meeting at which he had never been present. A conviction
in such a case must pass against the Brunswicker, and when
once passed, as it was without appeal, could rot be re-
moved. Now this was a proceeding to which he should
be loth to give his consent ; and he said this the more
readily, as he thought that it might be altered without de-
parting from the principle of the Bill. He was now argu-
. Mg on the idea that the measure was to be made effectual ;
for if it were passed at all,. no doubt it ought to be made
effectual. He lamented exceedingly that it must be passed ;
he denied that there was any necessity for putting it before
the measure which they had been assured should follow it.
That measure should have been passed first, and then the
present measure would have been rendered unnecessary.
But, as his Noble Friend the Member 14 Bedfordshire had
observed on a former occasion, in practical politics we must
sometimes bend to coniiderations of necessity and expe-
diency—we cannot pursue our own views as we could wish
and we must therefore be content with accomplishing them
as far as we can. He must consider this first measure as
the price of the greater measure which was to follow it;
and, considering it. as such, he would say, "if it
he necessary to be passed, let it be passed in
such a way, as is least likely to increase the
evils which the measure. that is intended to follow it
is intended to put down." He had now stated the
grounds which had induced him to give his assent, though
very reluctantly, to the present Bill; and they were simply
and exclusively these,—that he had reason to suppose
that it would be impossible to carry the other Bill without
first carrying this. In conclusion, he would merely ob-
serve, that he had no doubt not only that the Catholic As-
sociation was at that moment dissolved,—not only that it
would not be attempted to be revived,—not only that they
were employed in legislating against the mere shadow of a
name,—not only that the other great measure, which be
trusted was to follow this as quickly as possible, and would
be carried as securely, would. have the effect of preventing
the Catholics front desiring to renew the proceedings against
which this Bill was directed, and which the Legislature
had now been endeavouring for the last 25 years jra vain
to put down,—but that it would also prove the commence-
ment of a conciliatory system of Government, which in a
few years would make it the astonishment of them all that
they had so long remained in doubt and difficulty uporsia
question, which, after all, was found so easy to settle.

Mr. PEEL trusted that the House would allow him to
say a few words in answer to the observations which the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman had made upon the supposed
authority, which this Bill gave to the Magistrates of Ire-
land in general. The object of the clause with which the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman found fault was to render the
Bill effectual, as it was admitted it ought to be rendered if
it was passed at all, and not to place the liberty of the sub-
ject under the risk of abuse front any of the local magis-
tracy. He apprehended that under this Bill no magistrate
would have power to interfere with any assembly until the
Lord Lieutenant had pronounced it illegal. He appre-
hended further, that no magistrate, even after the Lord
Lieutenant had pronounced it illegal, would have power to
direct its dispersion, until he received express authority to
that effect from his Lordship. The only magistrates who
had power to demand admission into any place where there
was reason to believe that an unlawful association or as-
sembly was held, were two magistrates selected by the
Lord Lieutenant, and especially appointed by him to dis-
perse it. ' Now, if it were possible to provide that those
two magistrates should have jurisdiction within every part
of Ireland, or that they should be present in every part of
Ireland at one and the same time, that would be enough ;
but suppose that the patties who refused to depart from
the meeting which the magistrates ordered to disperse
should escape from the place in which it was held, how
were they to deal with such offenders? It was easy to sly
that only those two magistrates should take cognizance of
the offence so committed ; but those two magistrates might
be engaged in other dteties at a distance from the spot
where such offenders were apprehended, and thus it
would be necessary to keep them in custody till those
magistrates were once more at leisure to examine them.
The reason for granting to the magistrates a power
of summary conviction was, to prevent delay in
the operation of ,the Bill, and to give it that energy
and efficacy which was so material to its success.
The Right lion. Gentleman then proceeded at some length
to defend the power of summary conviction given to two
Magistrates ; but his arguments were delivered in a tone
of voice which rendered them very indistinctly audible in
the gallery. He concluded by saying that if the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman could provide any means of appeal
from this summary conviction, without destroying the
efficacy of the Bill, he should be most happy to attend to
his (Mr. Brougham's) suggestions. Before he sat down,
he would call the attention of the Hon. and Learned Gen-
tleman to the vast difference which existed between the
penalties of the present Bill and those of the Bill passed in
1819 for the suppression of these Associations. By the
Bill which was passed at that time, the Magistrates had
poWer to suppress any Assembly which was sworn on
oath to be dangerous. If the patties attending such meet-
ings, after hearing their order to disperse, refused to depart,
they rendered themselves liable to very severe punishment ;
their offence was declared felony, which rendered it impos-
sible for then to be admitted to bail, and their punish-
ment amounted to nothing lees than transportation for
seven years. It appeared to him that a less punishment
would meet the object which he had in view on the pre-
sent occasion. He therefore reduced the punishment from
transportation fur seven years to imprisonment for three
months ; and as no bail could be given for the felony under
the old Act, he did not see objection to making the con-
viction summary under the present. He was sure that the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman would, upon consideration,
see that there were sound reasons why he should not con-
fine the jurisdiction to the two magistrates whom the
lord-Lieutenant might select to put down illegal meetings.
Mr. BROUGHAM, in reply, called the attention of the
Right Hon. Gentleman to the words of theclause to which
he objected. The clause stated, that if the persons as-
sembled at one of these illegal meetings should not disperse
within a quarter of an hour from the time of the notice
given to that effect by the two Magistrates selected by the
Lord Lieutenant, " it should be lawful for the same Magis-
trates or for any two Justices of the Peace then present,"
to cause such persons so refusing to depart to be appre-
hended; and such persons so apprehended might be pro-
ceeded against in a summary way for such offence, before
any two Justices of the Peace before whom they might be
brought, and were, when convicted thereof, to be impri-
soned for three or twelve calendar months as the case
might be. Now it was clear from this clause that any two
Magistrates might convict an individual for an offenca
against its provisions, and that, too, without appeal. He
admitted that the considerations which he .hadjust urged
ought rather to be reserved for the discussion on the Bill
in the Committee, than to be made on the second reading
of it; but his anxiety to render it effectual must be. taken
as his excuse for mentioning the subject now.
Mr. PEEL thought, that in all cases where parties were
dissatisfied with the execution of this Bill, the Lord Lieute-
nant of Ireland would be the fittest person. to appeal to.
Mr. BROUGHAM again read the words of the Bill, to