The Sun.
London, England, 1845-07-23 00:00:00

ADJOURNED DEBATE.

Lord J. RUSSELL said, that as it was not likely that
the adjourned debate upon New Zealand would come on this
night, he wished to ask if it might be brought on to-morrow ?
Sir R. PEEL was understood to say, that although it would
interfere with Government business, he would not stand in the
wey of the resumption of the debate to-morrow.
BUTTER AND CHEESE.

Mr. EWART then rose to bring forward his motion ac-
cording to notice, for a reduction of the duties upon butter and
cheese. The Hon. Gentleman commenced by observing that
there was a quantity of butter destroyed every year, which
would otherwise be used for the benefit of the poor. It was
well known that last year twenty thousand hundred weights of
butter was destroyed. He had moved for a return of the ex-
tent to which this destructive process had been carried. The
provision trade of this country was one of enormous importance,
because it would increase our trade with America. He
was well aware that even the simple motion, of which he had
given notice, had attracted attention in America. He would
refer the:Government to the circular of those eminent brokers,
Messrs. Keeling and Hunt, of the city of London, which had
shown that by a reduction in duty there would be an immense
amount of increase of revenue ; that as the duty was now levied,
it was a taz of twenty per cent. upon cheese for the poor, and
fifty per cent. for butter; and in that valuable and comprehen-
sive circular of those eminent gentlemen they had so clearly
shown the benefits which would arise to the poor, that be would
not trouble them further on the matter than referring them to
the circular which was well known and understood by the
Board of Trade. He simply proposed that these duties
be repealed. If they went into committee, he would
be happy to hear the arguments of the Chancellor of the
Exchequer, as he well knew that they would be well an-
swered by those Gentlemen who took his side of the question.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that he
certainly proposed resisting to go into Committee. He would
confine himself merely to financial reasons for not acceding
to the proposition of the Hon. Gentleman. Under the cir-
cumstances he held it his duty not to allow a further reduction
as it could not be done at this season of the year without in-
volving the country in considerable difficulty. When he con-
sidered that. in one year the duty amounted to 347,3001. he
could not acce6 to the proposition of the Hon. Gentleman.
The commercial interests of the country would be materially
affected.' It ?could have no other effect than deranging the
'progress ortrade by suppressing the duty just now. He would
reserve his opinion till the finances of the year were stated, and
then he would state the course which he would advise them to
adopt. He confined himself to the position that it would be
most destructive to the revenue to alter this duty at this period
of the year.
Mr. M. GIBSON said that the only reason which induced
him to oppose the present 1 roposition was that the duty in-
creased the revenue by 347,0001. So that if they could show
, that it imposed a greater tax upon the people than it produced
a revenue to the State, that argument would be defeated. It
was quite requisite that the duty should be taken eff, as it
pressed most heavily upon the manufacturing and agricultural
population. He himself knew that in the county of Suffolk the
people were in the habit of consuming an immense quantity of
foreign cheese, as that which was home-made there was quite
unfit for human beings, and he considered that they were
grievously injured by the destruction which had been stated by
the Hon. Gentleman who had already addressed the House.
He 'would rather discuss it as a question of simple taxation
than on fiscal grounds, as it was invariably argued by the
Government. The latter was a fallacious principle, and he
hoped it would so be regarded by the House.
Mr. HUME considered the course adopted by the Govern-
ment perfectly consistent, and even honourable, so far as re-
garded the defence of their original principles, inasmuch as
they were right in not holding out hopes to the labourer which
could never be realised.

Mr. P. HOWARD considered that at that late period of
the session the House ought nGt to entertain a measure of such
importance, and involving interests so intimately connected
with the welfare of the country. He could not see why butter
and cheese should not be treated as favourably as silk.
Mr. NEWDEGATE trusted the Howe and the Govern..
merit would protect the agriculturist and reject the measure.
Mr. F. EGERT'ON said the Hon. Gentleman opposite
said that the landlords were picking the pockets of the rest of
the community. Why they might just as well say that the
manufacturers of Lancashire were picking the pockets of the
rest of the community.
Dr. BOWRING said there might be some analogy between
the two cases, if the manufacturers of Lancashire called upon the
people to pay a higher price for their articles than they
could get them elsewhere. The manufacturers required no
protection fur themselves. They wished everything to be
open to fair competition.
Sir It. PEEL said he had been rather curious to know what
the motion of the Hon. Gentleman would be, provided they
get into Committee. The Hon. Gentleman bad been exceed-
ingly tender on that point. He had said that his own opinion
was decidedly in favour of an absolute repeal of the duty.
That was to be implied from all the doctrines which he had
ever expressed. In his notice at an early period of the ses-
sion, the Hon. Gentleman intimated that he intended to move
for the absolute and total repeal of the duty. That was accord-
ing to the free-trade principles which were held by the Hon.
Gentleman. But when his (Sir R. Peel's) Right Honourable
Freud said that this was a question of duty, amounting to
350,0001., the Honourable Gentleman then said that he meant
only to propose a reduction of the duty.
Mr. E WART intimated dissent.

Sir R. PEEL—WeII, then, the Hon. Gentleman now left
the matter in a state of uncertainty. An absolute repeal of
the duty would involve a loss of revenue of 350,0001. Now,
could the Hon. Gentleman expect her Majesty's Government
could possibly accede to such a proposal ? 3 he Government
had carefully considered, at an early period of the year, all the
reductions they could make. They had found themselves in
possession of a large surplus, the result of the income-tax, and
they remitted not less than 3,400,000/. of permanent taxes.
He reduced the sugar duties to the extent of 1,200,000/., and
he had been told that the quantity consumed would not coun-
terbalance that reduction. He proposed the absolute reduction
of the duty on glass. A duty to the extent of 900,000/. was
also repealed on various articles which constituted the founda-
tion of many manufactures at the present moment. He
thought the removal of these impettiments would be attended
with many advantages to general trade, and his anticipations
had not been disappointed. 'I he Government had remitted duties
to the extent of 3,400,0001., and it was met with the entire ap-
proval of the House ; and then in the month of July, at nearly
the termination of the session, a proposition was brought for-
ward to compel a further reduction of 350,000/. With so
small a surplus of revenue it would not be advisable to make
such a remission. In addition to the motion of the Hou.
Gentleman, another Hon. Gentleman had given notice of a
remission of duty on no less than eighty different articles of im-
portation. It was not a very large amount, it was true,
but it would not be wise policy to diminish in any
degree, however small, the surplus revenue that
existed.
dHe was determined to consider this question entirely
edne
nneeer ..ere
ner dissatisfied
tohneyfi
vote
If)opina.nGt
oer
Ile, upon general principles,
Ma-
jesty's Ministers.—( a g
declined expressing any
c definite opinion on the subject.
confidenceC'it her Majesty's Ministers were made, the Right
Pm said if a motion of a vote of want of
more
Colonel S
in 113 1110 R
from the other
Hon. Gentleman. would doubtless have recourse to assistance
Sir ROBERT PEEL observed that apparently he lost their
confidN,ce every evening.—( Laughter.
Awlirtid M.
his
ia.l motion.
O'CONNELL recommended his Hon. Friend
to
Mr. EWA RT said he should press it to a division.
The House then divided, when there appeared :
For the motion
Against it
Majority
On our re-admiasion to the gallery, we found
Mr. FORSTER moving the repeal of the duty on
eighty-four articles of which he had given notice
for this evening. He expected the Right Honourable
Baronet would tell the House on what ground the duty on these
articles were retained. The whole of the duty on these com-
modities only amounted to 38.233/. annually.
Sir R. PEEL said that her Majesty's Government bad re-
pealed the duty on 400 commodities during the last two yoga, and

it was their intention to take the subject into their further con-
sideration, with a view to the great simplification of these du-
ties. He hoped, therefore, the Hon. Member would leave the
matter in the hands of the Government, who had already
shown so great a desire for their reduction.—( Hear. )
Mr, H UME supported the motion. The duty heing re•
moved from so many article would relieve the labours of the
Commissioners. He hoped, that during the recess the Right
Hon. Baronet would prepare a Bill to reduce or abolish the
duty from many of those articles that at present wore in-
cluded in the tariff.

Sir R. PEEL could not make any promise as to what course
he should take.

After a few words from Mr. Hume, Mr. Forster, and the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, the motion was withdrawn.
OTAHEITE.

Capt. PECHELL wished to ask: the Gallant Admiral a
question respecting a circumstance which bad happened at
Otaheite, in which a British officer on board the Talbot had re-
fused to recognize the French flag. He wished to know if it
was so, and the circumstances under which it took place. He
would now move for the return of which he had given notice,
of the number of petty officers, able, and ordinary
seamen, and boys, borne on the books of her Ma-
jesty's ships undermentioned at the latest period to
which the, same can be: made; eut ; distinguishing
those that have been lent from other ships or from the
service of the dockyards :—Queen, Traralgar, St. Vincent,
Rodney, Superb, Albion, Canopus, and Vanguard.
Sir R. PEEL explained that the officer of the ship in
question had refused to salute the flag of the French
Admiral on account of the protectorate, and hence the officer
was interdicted from going on shore in the island unless he re-
cognised the flag.
After a brief conversation, in which the CHANCELLOR of
the EXCHEQUER. and Mr. SHELL took part, the motion was
agreed to.
The LORD ADVOCATE obtained leave to introduce two
Bills relative to the laws of Scotland, relating to heirs, and
with regard to Crown charters and precepts from Chancery.
The Documentary Evidence Bill was read a second time.
The Real Property Bill was read a second time.
The Assignment of Terms Bill was read a second time.
The Granting of Leases Bill was read a second time.
The following Bills were also read a second time :—Customs
Laws Repeal Bill, Customs Management Bill, Customs Duties
Bill, Warehousing of Goods Bills, British Vessels Bill, Ship-
ping and Navigation Bill, Trade of British Possessions Abroad
Bill, Customs Bounties and Allowances Bill, Isle of Man
Trade Bill, Smuggling Prevention Bill, and Customs Regula-
tion Bill.

The Coal Trade (Port of London) Bill was read a third
time.

On the motion that the Fees (Criminal Courts) Bill be read
a seoond time,

Mr. ESCOTT said the subject was much misunderstood.
He wished to abolish those fees which were really; unjust.
Thus, when a poor man was conviVed in a criminal court, and
the judge deemed a fine of Is. sufficient—was it not most
unfair that fees :o the amount of 21. or 3/. should be imposed ?
Certainly the law did not give the Justices, at Quarter Ses-
sions, poster to adopt any but a legal table of fees. They had
no right to exact any but legal and reasonable fees. No law
was in existence to justify the extortion which was too fre-
quently indicted on parties, whe were too powerless to resist
them. But if there were abuses in the present system—if
poor men were to be dragged before justices, and, whether
discharged or not, called upon to pay fees—and if there
were laws to justify these exorbitant fees, it was their duty
as legislators to rectify them, and to see that the poor and
helpless did not suffer from them. He therefore earnestly
trusted that the Bill would be read a second time.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL, whilst he deprecated any
hasty legislation on the subject, was willing to admit that abuses
did exist, to the great injury of the poor, and that he was
anxious to do all in his power to remedy them. By the Act
of George 111. all persons convicted of misdemeanours
were free from all fees whatever. By the 53d of
George 111. it was provided that persons charged with of-
fences, but who were discharged either by the grand jury, or
before the trial, were not liable to pay fees. With regard to
acquittals, no tees ought to be charged. But there were some
cases where the exaction of fees was both salutary and
just ; as, for instance, where parties were admitted
to bail, or where they had traversed for their own convenience.
He repeated that he considered that his Hon. Friend (Mr.
Escott) had been:Ace) hasty. He was willing to aid him to a
reasonable extent, but he was not prepared to go to the length of
abolishing fees altogether. They should apply their legisla-
tion to those eases in which a person had to pay fees ten times
larger than the amount in which he was fined. Let them not,
however, adopt a course which could not fail to entail much
mischief on the country. If his Hon. Friend did not confine
his Bill within proper limits, he should feel it his duty to
oppose it.
Mr. AGLIONBY had had many opportunities of judging of
the want of such a measure as that before the House, and he
could not conceive why the Government should oppose the Bill
on the second reading, when the necessary alterations might be
made in Committee. He hoped the Bill would be read a second
time on that understanding.
Sir J. GRAHAM considered that fees ought to be paid
when a person was admitted to bail, and that there were in-
stances where they ought to be remitted. Believing that the
Bill would do much good, when certain alterations were intro-
duced into it, he should support the second reading.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the second reading
Against it
Majority —34
The Bill was then read a second time and ordered to be com-
mitted.

The Unions (Ireland) Bill, the Jurors' Books (Ireland) Bill,
the Testamentary Dispositions Bill, the Drainage of Estates
Bill, and the Customs Acts Bill were forwarded a stage.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL moved for leave to bring
in a Bill to amend the laws relating to real property.
Agreed to.

'I he Heuse then adjourned at a Quarter to Two o'clock.

PARLIAMENTARY DIVISIONS.

(Front the Votes and Proceedings of the House of Commons.)
MONDAY, JULY 21.
POOR-LAW AMENDMENT (SCOTLAND) BILL.

Order for Third Reading read ; Motion made, and Question pro-
posed, " That the Bill be now read a second time :"—Amendment
proposed, to leave out the word " now," and at the cad of the Ques-
tion to add the words " upon Monday neat:"—Question put, " That
the word ' now' stand part of the Question." The idouse divided:—

MAJORITY-AYES, 33.
Baring, W. B. Flower, Sir James M`Neill, Dincan
Benbow, John Forester, G. C. W. Meynell, Captain
itentinck, Lord G. Fremantle, Sir T. Pringle, Alexander
Bowes, John Fuller, A. E. Ito Heston, Colonel
ltrotherton, Joseph Goulburn, Henry Rous, Captain
Bruce, Lord E. Hawes, 8.14 Scott, Francis
Clerk, Sir G. Henley, J. W. Stuart, Lord J.
Clive, Viscount Hussey, Thomas Warburton, Henry
Cripps, W. Ilutt, William Wortley, John S.
Dick, *lndia Jones, Captain TELLERS.
Duke, Sir J. Lincoln, Earl Cardwell, Edward
Duncombe, 0. Lockhart, William Mackenzie, W. F.

MINORITY-NOES, 7.
Berkeley, Craven Witkley, Thomas TELLERV.
Berkeley, Grantley Wawn, J. T. Hastie, Archibald
Nlitcalfe, Henry Yorke, Henry R. Dundas, I'.
Sheridan, R. B.