The Sun.
London, England, 1842-06-04 00:00:00

He believed that if the Right-Hon.. Gentleman admitted foreign
sugar at a duty of 30 per cent., instead of at a duty of 50 pot-
rent., he would find that we should have an increased consump.
-tirin of one million cwt., and that would give a revenue of
5,500,0001. instead- of 5,000,000/., which was the present
amount. - They were proceeding on a most erroneous system—
a system which injured -many parties, and benefited none.
On these grounds he supported the proposed reduction ; and in
his opinion the course they should adopt was that of gradually,
from year to year, lowering the duty, until they had adopted to
the fullest extent the principle of free trade.
Mr. P. M. STEWART s: that they had had three pro-
posals submitted to their consideration —The proposal of the
Government for a continuance of the present duty, the pro-
posal of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, the Member for
Bath, for a total abolition of all duty, and the proposal of his
Right Hon. Friend (Mr Lahouchere), for effecting in the du y
a considerable reduction. Now with regard to the proposal of
the Hon. and Learned Member for Bath, he had no hesitation
in saying that no man alive to the interests of our colonies
could have supported such a motion. With regard to the pro •
posal of his Right rion. Friend, he admitted that in principle it
was just ; but he could not. under the circumstances in which
our colonies were, approve of the proposed reduction of the duty.
He thought that it would be unfair to expose them to a com-
petition with colonies producing slave-grown sugar, and not
subject to any of the burdens which our own colonies had to bear.
If there was any prospect of amelioration, the Government.
would be to blame if they did not take their stand on the
principle of working out the experiment they had commenced,
and of which these differential duties were the protection. In
lt+33, by wise, because just, interference, the country gave
up the system of slave cultivation. What was the effect of the
competition into which they were forced by this measure
The cost of the production of sugar had been increased. The
colonies now were to be treated as integral parts of the empire ;
upon these grounds he could assist in bringing this question to
a settlement in a commercial shape ; 'but he could not look
only to one side of the qmstion. Ile would enter into com-
petition with all the world, but he protested against going into
the contest with ine hand tied up, and against those who
would enjoy at once the advantages of a free trade and slave I
labour.

Lord J. RUSSELL said the Hon. Gentleman appeared to
have argued the question without a decided opinion, both as
a free-trader and a c -dottrel proprietor. if his opinion appeared
at all inconsistent, there were many others who had shown
equal inconsistency. Upon the present occasion, he conceived
that the House might well consider whether it was not an
opportunity in which the House could evince by some prectical
proof their wish to diminish the price of the main articles of
subsistence. They had heard that this was to be the object of
the great changes that were in contemplation; yet though that
was the object the Government had the most nearly at heart,
and the House wished to accomplish, somehow there
appeared to be great difficulties in attaining it,
with respect to any of the great primary articles,
of subsistence. With regard to some articles, which, to the
working classes, were of the greatest importance, the tariff had
already been altered so as to give sonic relief front taxation ; on
salt, coal, and candles, and other articles, there had been a re-
duction, or revision, of taxation. With respect to the great
articles they were now to consider : beginning with the great
necessary, bread, they found they could not make any great
reduction in that main article of subsistence ; that for it
they must be independent of foreign supply, and they
must consider the interest of those who produced forty-
eight millions of quarters a-year. Then they came to
the great articles of cheese and butter, and here
they found the revenue was so concerned that it was
impossible to make any reduction of duty upon them.—
( Hear, hear. ) On cattle, and on wheat, they had changed
high and prohibitory duties for much lower ones, but then it
was unfortunate that at the same time they received the un-
fortunate assurance, and from the same authority,that the!people
were not likely to derive any great advantage from a reduction
in the price of meat. Then in the very important article of
sugar, important from the improved habits of the people,
which it was the duty of every Legislature to re-
mote, he was sorry to hear that they must be
content with the promulgation of their wish to reduce the cost
of subsistence. They reduced, to au almost nominal amount,
the duties on 500 or 600 articles, which never came into the
consumption of the working classes ; but on the comforts of the
great body of the poor, the change was of little importance.
With regard to the great article, sugar, they found a diffi-
culty in the way. The Vice-President of the Board of Trade
could not concede any reduction of duty, and the Chancellor
of the Exchequer proposed the continuance of a prohibitory
duty, contrary to all the principles announced by the Govern-
ment. The price of sugar, at the latter end of 1841, was 355.
per cwt., and at present he believed it was 38s. The
price of foreign sugar, with the duty, was 545. per cwt.,
The difference in the duty proposed by his Right Hon.
Friel d would amount to is. 10d. a cwt., which, said the
Right Hon. Gentleman the Vice-President of the Board of
Trade. would make a difference in price amounting only to
id. a lb. ; but that, he would remind the Right Hon. Gentle-
man, small as it might appear, would make a most important
differeneo in the weekly bills of the poor man. He (Lord .1.
Russell), in speaking of the proposed reduction of the sugar
duties last year, had stated that one great object of the then
Government in proposing the reduction, was to prevent an in-
crease taking place in the price. That argument had last year
been treated by Hon. Gentlemen opposite as absurd. y lie
( Lord John Russell), however, thought it a sound one ;
but this year he had had the happiness to hear the same argu-
ment made use of by the Right Hon. Geutleman at the head
of the Government respecting cattle and other articler. That
had been his (Lord John Russell's) argument with respect
to sugar ; but so far from being held good with respect to sugar,
it was held to be ridiculous, although perfectly good with re-
gard to cattle.—( Loud cheers.) The Right lion. Gentleman
took two grounds for refusing to assent to this motion—the first
was, the loss which must accrue to the revenue, which was es-
mated at from 600,0001. to 400,0001. ; but with respect
to the tariff generally it should be recollected that they were
considering how they could sacrifice one portion of their revenue
for the benefit of the people. The Right Hon. Gentleman
said that there was a deticiencey in the revenue amounting to
two millions and a half. He proposed to lay on additional taxa-
tion to the amount of 4,300,000/. ; and he stated that the diffe-
rence would enable him to lessen those duties which pressed in
the most burdensome manner upon the people, and that he
proposed to do se in the manner the most likely to reduce the
cost of subsistence generally throughout the country. If that
was the Government plan, there was nothing in which a por-
tion of the revenue could more usefully be sacrificed than
sugar. Other articles on which it was proposed to
make a sacrifice of revenue, were not of nearly the necee-
sity that this article of sugar was of; and throughout
the whole range of the Customs duties no reduction could be
proposed which would be of greater benefit to the people of
this country than the reduction which his Right lion. Friend
had proposed. In a petition presented from the coffee-house
keepers of London last year, it was stated that twenty-five
years ago there were not ter, coffeeLhouses, properly so called,
n London, but that now there were 1,800. Surely it was an •
portsro to the morals of the people to encourage them to use a
refreshing beverage of this nature in preference to having re-
course to inebriating liquors, and surely a high cost of sugar
tended to prevent the encouragement of these moral habits so
conducive to the welfare of the people of the United Kirgdom
—(Cheers.) Then with regard to the argument respecting
the slave trade, if it were proposed to prohibit the importa-
tion of all articles the produce of slave labour he could un-
derstand the argument ; nay, if they were to take lower
ground, arid to say we will not lower the duties on any fresh
I articles of slave produce, there might be some force
lin the argument. But he found that. the duty now
payable on Brazilian coffee was 15d., and that duty it
was proposed to reduce to Bd.—(Cheers.) This reduction
was to be made on behalf of slave-grown coffee—(Loud
cheers)—so that that which with respect to coffee was per-
fectly harmless, was, with respect to sugar, an encourage-
ment of the slave trade.—( Lond cheers.) Then, again, it
was proposed to lower the duty on American copper. Why,
the American copper mines were worked entirely by slaves
(Cheers and laughter)—and the slavery in the copper mines
was more horrible than that of any other.—(Cheers.) What
became of their virtuous indignation then?—(Loud cheers. )
It was doubtless desirable to put an end to the high restrictive
duties on copper, but if they compared the articles of copper
and sugar together, lie thought it must be admitted that the
welfare of the people of this country would be infi•
nitely more promoted by a reduction of the duty on sugar
than by any supply of copper that could ever come from abroad.
—(Loud cheers.) He could not understand this argument
about the slave trade. The Right Hon. Gentleman said, the
slave trade was decreasing, but that was in consequence of
efforts of a totally different description. That decrease had
been brought about by sending cruisers to the coast of Africa,
and by treaties entered into with other powers for the sup-
rression of the slave trade ; and he deubted not but that, by a
continuance of such efforts, the slave trade would be utterly
abolished. Ile could not see the advantage to be derived from
keeping up the prohibition against the importation of foreign
sugar, while other articles, the produce of slave labour,
were admitted ; and he trusted that, on that occasion, the
House would endeavour to carry into effect the principle
laid down by the Government, that as the Income•tax had been
imposed upon the people, something would be done by the re-
moval of prohibitions to reduce the cost of living. The inflic-
tion of the Income-tax was certain ; he feared that the reduc-
tion in the cost of the articles of living would prove delusive.
There could be no doubt as to the heaviness of the impost, but
the disappointment would be great, when it should be found
that the promises of relief which had been held out had not
been fulfilled.—( Loud cheers.)
Mr. ROEBUCK supposed that the Noble Lord when he
spoke of the necessities of the people, and said that unfortu-
nately they were unable to lower the price of the poor man's
bread, thought, while he was casting a slur on his
opponents, to claim to himself the credit of being
a person who would diminish that price. That asser--.
tion he (Mr. H.) totally denied. The Noble Lord
seemed to take pleasure in recounting the difficulties by which
the Right lion. Gentleman was surrounded. No doubt the
Right Hon. Gentleman was surrounded with difficulties, and
ere this he must have felt the working ,of his own iilustration,
" that every man had his herring."—( Hear, hear.) The
"herring" of the lion. Gentleman who had spoken before the
Noble Lord was colonial protection, and if he (Mr . R.) had
not checked him by an unfortunate cheer, the Hon. Gentleman
would have gone on to demand the re-establishment of slavery,
preparatory to applying the doctrine of free trade to the colonies.
Did the lion. Gentleman mean to say that the present re-
strictions upon the colonies in the VY est Indies crippled the
West Indian produce, and that. in consequence they were
unable to compete with the other portions of the colonies?
Because if it was not, it was nothing ; and if it was, he (Nlr.
Roebuck) was quite prepared to say that if he brough a motion
forward to-morrow, he would be the first to vote with him. Let

him try it.—( Cheers and laughter.) But he was the last man
to propose it.—( Cheers.) If it was not, that what did it
mean' The Right lion. Gentleman came down to the House
hound up in the West Indian colonies, and he said that they
had crippled their right aria. He said put them on a free-
trade principle; make us equal with those parties with whom
we have to compete, the parties with whom we have to com-
pete being users of slave-labour. What was the meaning of
this proposition, but to restore slavery in the West Indies ?
(" Oh, oh.") It was all very well to cry, " Oh, oh;" that was
the meaning of the proposition. If it did not mean that, what
did it mean? The West India proprietors said it was of ro
much importance to this country, that they mutt tax the labour-
ing classes for whom the Noble Lord felt such a wonderful
degree of sympathy and affection, that they were to tax the
labouring classes of this country between 2,000,000/. and
3,000,0001. per annum, for the benefit of the %Vest India pro-
prietors. Now to come to the way in which the Right Hon.
Gentleman dealt with the question. They did not wish to give
all the glory to the other side.—(Cheers. ) Therefore, they
aid, as the opposite party had a stalking horse, they would
have theirs, and that should be sugar.—( Cheers and laughter.)
They (the Ninisterialists) had given the agricultural
classes protection in corn, and they (the Opposi-
tion) said, they would not have a free trade in corn
at all, but in one of those mystifieations which were
shown by gentlemen on that side of the House they proposed
'an Ss. duty.—( Cheers.) Why, this was an illusion on the
part of the Right lion. Baronet. There would be no dimi-
nution in the price of bread, and, therefore, it was illusory.
The Right Hon. Baronet said fairly he was for protection to
to the agriculturists. He (Mt:. Roebuck) quarrelled with him
on that. He said he was for protection to agriculture, and he
proposed it in the shape of a sliding scale. What said they on
that side. They wanted to avoid protection, and, therefore,
they would propose an Bs. duty. This was the first ; then came
the second, precisely of the same description. He (Mr. Roe-
buck) proposed, not many hours before, the equalization of the
duty on sugar, and who opposed him? Why, the gentlemen
on his side the House. They said they were for protection ;
;bey werefor keeping out the foreign sugar ; they did not want