The Sun.
London, England, 1842-07-16 00:00:00

DISTRESS.

Mr. M GIBSON Said, that as the Right Homur-
able Baronet was not in his place, he should post•
pone his motion relative to the shopkeepers of Manchester
to another day, but he would take the liberty of
putting a question to the Chancellor of the -Ex-
chequer. They continued to receive . from the
manufacturing districts, 'nest alarming accounts of the
distress. Every day brought fresh information of the
distress increasing, and he wished to ask the Right Ho-
nourable Gentleman whether the Government had
received confirmatory statements. He should
also take that opportunity of saying that , the
greatest disappointment was felt at the speeches deli-
vered by the Government on the motion of his Ho-
nourable Friend the Member for Wolverhamp-
ton with reference to the distress of the coun-
try. The speeches contained little less' than vagua
expressions of hope that the goodness of the coming
harvest would restore the prosperity of the country.
He wished to ask whether the Government continued to
receive fresh evidence of the dis:ress of the country ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that he had been called out of town as soon as Parlia-
ment was up last night, and he had but just returned,
therefore he cuuld not give the Honourable Gentleman
an answer. _ _

Mr. MARK PHILIPS wished to ask whether it was
likely that a large quantity of corn would come through
Malta to this country ; and, if so, whether such would
be admitted free of duty ?
Mr. GLADSTONE said he did not know if a large
quantity of wheat would come to this country through
Malta, but if it did it would be treated as foreign wheat.
MEDICAL CHARITIES BILL.

Mr. VESEY wished to ask the Noble Lord opposite
whether it was his intention to press the second reading
of this Bill this session.

Lord ELTOT said he had no desire to press the Bill
with too great haste, at the same time he' thought it was
desirable the Bill should pass it as soon as possible.

SUPPLY.

The House the:i went into Committee of Supply,
Mr. GREENE in the Chair. _

The tir6t vote prop,sed was that of 84,000/. for com-
penation to persons formerly employed in public
offices.

Mr. WILLI4MS thought that in many instances the
superannuation allowances were much too great. There
was one, the second on the list, a person who had 300/.
a year when in service ; he retired in the fifty-seventh
year of his age, and the furty-firit of his service, and
his superannuation salary was 4001. He (Mr. Wil-
liams) would recommend that there should be a
superannuated fund, to which every public officer 'should
be comp'elled to contribute in proportion to the amount
of his salary, and that fund, and that alone, should be
the only superannuation fund to which they ought to
look when they became too old for service.
Sir GEORGE .CLERK supported the vote, and vindi-
cated the manner in which the superannuation funds
were disposed of.
Mr. HUME stated that the vote required this year
was higher than it bad been on any previous occasion.
It was a grant which got larger and larger every year.
He thought the plan of superannuation defective, and
suggested that the subject should be taken into
consideration by the Government before next year, with
the view of putting some limitations to superannuations.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that the amount was required,
After a short conversation, the vote was agreed to.
The next vote was a sum not exceeding 70,0001. to enable
her Majesty to grant allowances to the widows of naval officers,
emigrants, American loyalists, and others who were claimants
on her Majesty's liberality.—The vote was agreed to after some
cenversational discussion.
the following votes were agreed to without discussion— :
1,1(16/. to defray the expenses, &c., of the National Vac.
eine Institution.
BJOOOI. for the expenses of the Institution for the Refuge of
the Destituio.
3,57'21. for the expend of the Criminal Lunatic Hospital.
8,8001. for allowances to Protestant Dissenters, poor French
refugees, and others
On the nett tote being proposed,
Mr, WILLIAMS objected to that part of it which was
to be applied its the Home service, on the ground that it
could only be applied fit eying spies to watch the people. He
would take the sense of tfig House on the subject. he Hon.
Member then proposed as an amendment, that the sum of
10,00/, should he granted as secret service money, and that it
Shottid ht applied Solely on the Foreign service.
Mr. HUME said he objected to any money being so applied.
The mlinOy was distributed amongst the syoretari:.‘ of Sten
Who ware by their oaths td apply it as they tri.27—
best. He considered that a Representative Government ought
to have nothing in, secret, nothing which it was not prepared to
lay before the public.
Ste GRAHAM said he did hot ittend to argue the policy
or impolicy of having a secret fund at the disposal of the Go-
vernment; but he believed the Noble Lord ()Write (Lord
Palmer.ten) tvr.sild bevy him out in the statement, that there
was business in the Foreign Department which could not be
conducted without such a protisiOrt.
Lord PALMERSTON agreed with the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman that none of this money was applied to elec inn pur-
poses. With regard to the Foreign service, he was prepared to
say that it could not be carried on without a sum of money at
the disposal of the Secretary of State.
Dr. BO IX It 1N G said. that if no portion of this tronejikka
wanted for the ,tiome Department, he was surprised that there
was no reduction in the amount of money.
Sir J. GRAHAM, said there was a reduction.
Mr. WILLIAMS was glad that none of this money was
spent for election purposes. He did net himself believe it was,
but there were others who held a dffcrent opinion. lie should
divide the Committee on the vote.
The Committee then divided, when there appeared
• For the amendment l3
Against it
for the vote -114
. • •• •
, .
tt,
Lord STANLEY moving that the Chairman report progress,

•. t ,

and obtain leave to sit again during the eve“ing, in orde- t.ha
the [louse might. receive the 11111 tor the protection of her •c a<
jesty', person, wh;ch h, ukderstood was to be sent clown by thei.'.

The M,s-engers frora the Lordswere 0 en called. and the
Bill deLv,red. I.vvb two amenthnent:,,
Atter a tevr words !rout the SOLICITOR-GENLII.

were ageseii to willsout
SUP 1 'ls Y.
The Meese again went into Cnarnittee on the vote of:'
a
193.048/. for the eeeense of printing:, binding, and stalienere'
for the several Government Depat tments in Scoteeds
Ireland, and the Colonies, and or prig e hag for the two Hand'.
of earliament.—The vote was agreed to. 4,
The sum of 22.0001. was then voted to defrny the c
charges.
Toe 'sum et 102 873/. was voted to defray the expentea 4,
the convict establishment at home and at Bermuda.
255,e001. was voted to defray the charites and expense3n7
the convict establishments °fa/sew South Wales.
A vote of 23,000/. for the expenses of captive negroes and
liberated Al. leans was then agreed to of
On the vote of 11,311/. being proposed for the salaries
persons employed in the care of puhlic records,
Mr. H. HINDE called the attention ut the House to ha
various unfinished publications of the Record Commission, a,:
to the state of the work entitled " The Historians of Britain.,
obiter was undertaken by . the command of his late Majesty
George IV. The conducting of this work was entrusted to In°
hands of the late Mr. Petrie, and one volume of it had hee_',l
finished. An expense of 12,00 e/. was incurred, and he belie,'
that 3,001:1. mote would be sufficient to finish the work.
Sore.'
Sir J. GRAHAM ea;d the subject to which his eh
Friend called the attention of the House, was one of nv-'
literary and national importance. He understood that c.f....,
volume of the Ancient Historians was completed, and drat
second had been left incomplete when Mr. Petrie died.
would be the duty of the Government, acting with the Nees4:
of the Public Ilecoldse :sod Sir Henry Ellis, to eon° iby
whether it would not be desirable that the publication sbts'
proceed. With respect to other publications, he should
the course
_pursued by the late Government, and teilon
recommendltion of Lord Langdale.
After a short cent:dr:atom, the vote was agreed to. sae
A vote of 30,000/. for the exeenses of public education
Great Britain, was then proposed.
Mr. EVS", ART thought that this grant was miserably 501,1,',
it was the approbrium of our estimates. Ile 'visitedI'm
whether it mai the intention of the Government to move
larger .urn. or to apply it on any new principle?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
' not the intention of the Government to prorose any °To!
sum this year ; and it would be appropriated in the
manner.
stir. MILNER GIBSON thought that the sum was
too small. He believed also that the system of eduriationt
lowed in the national scliools was most unsatisfactory. 1
..,31;r
Feared that few or no books were read in these sebools, ewe!
the Bible and Catechism. The Hon. Gentleman here 4'l°,,
a statement of the Hon. and Rev. Baptist Noel, as to thee",be
ortueate results of this system iu narrowing the minds 0, ',a,
cieldran. He was persuaded that the piau of national e°ls
cation would never be placed on a proper basis until the orileo
were opened equally to child en of all persuasions, and 0,4,
out of the hands of clergymen of any particular deneminallt,a,
Mr. BROTHERTON also thought that the grant µ'e9sl
too small, when they cons dered the paramount importance
it, object. io
Dr. BOWRING thought that the smallness of the b'ar'b,
a rich anti powerful country like this was positively disgraeea,ii
He hoped that the time was at hand when it would be O
•
increased. Mr. PROT HEROE objected to the mode according to "'
religious instruction was given undt r the present systea).
education. He was opposed to dividing that instruction; 04
special and general. it was most desirous that a sestiedres
general religious instruction shoUld be given to the chi', 0
founded on the general truths of Christianity, on Ow'
concurred.
Mr. CHILDERS thought that the House had reesl
complain th.2.= they were not furnished with the same jeer° re'
thin on this subject as the House of Lords had been. nee(
gretteil to say that, o: the three sister kingdoms, Englatel,d
far the worst educated.
6,000 or 7,000 inhabitants. a:'d other towns, there was bt,n,ot
I the town of Oldham, which conta.'e'o
general school for the education ef children. fie trustee `4,0
sltice.m6eogfg
eeddut
some
ri riminp eronvt ,e improved
nsay
the S'cretary for the Home Depart tnt.'lt, whether Itrot
ight Hon. Genlroe
toetatis,krethewo;7ld be adopted b_
the intention of the Government to pr0,70,e
of money to promote, in conjunction vs euu
the system of singing flow taught at Exeter-hall I test
Sir J. GRAHAM said that he was surprised ;n ,000
the lion. Member say, that in -towns of 6,000 or 17
inhabitants, there were no schools.
-Mr. CHILDERS—GeneraI schools. eloill
Sir J. GRAHAM did not know what the
Gentleman meant by general schools. All he coul'ltio
was, that he believed that religious and moral edul,eco
was given in almost every town. As to what hat' etc
said respecting Oldham, nothing but the Hon. Gekote
man's veracity could induce him to believe these;he
meat. In answer to the Hon. Gentleman's tpleat.°l, for
had to state that Government intended only to sitting,"
the grant which had been given last year fur edarn,. ft
none of which would be applied to those singing schn°loo
would be for the Government to consider whether, p
future occasion, they would bring forward any qe
measure for that purpose. 11 the
Mr. R. YORKE said there was no way in wh-ceeog
public money could be better expended than in g'
religious and moral education to the people. 1,708
Mr. IHIME had certainly expected that soreeilee
would be done by the Government for the improre'llielt
of national education. The lamentable state in
this country was in this respect, was a reproach Woof
I Legislature. When the Whigs were in power,
lie
were most anxious to establish a general and eNte .0°
system of education, bet they were opposed 14
party now in.power. The Government would do
to expend the public money tea the education °ll
people than on the building of prisons, upon whicilere
of 20,0001. in one place, and 20,00e1 in anotbereettl6
squandered. If they educated the people they
a)'
prevent crime, and thus do away with the fleeces'
prisons. -An 1,50.,
An Hos. MEzereeen, whose name we could not ,IPP
suggested the propriety of Government ue`iii;,:lie
some cheap remedy in cases of public charities,
re
whea cause of dispute arose, the tends that we -4,0
queathed for the promotion of education were exl"'"
on litigation in the Courts of Equity. 1,00,
Mr. HARDY objected to what some Hon. Gent:ete
ore
called general redgious instruction being ace`,
in the schools. The instruction should be Ichers
.If they admitted sectarian as well as orthodox te" rtlt
into schools they would have different interpretation: itir
upon the same texts of Scripture, and those then scilr
portant. The true object of education was to tr310,05e
children so that they might in after life discharge ejiio
i
duties strictly, soberly, and honestly. Such an e,boi
should not be merely Secular, for persons of the h 0t44
secular education were often guilty of the o_4°oll
crimes. Religious instruction was inseparable fPw:oolu
education, and no kind of merely moral instruction j
supply its place.
Mr. GIBSON said that the clergy hal been tri
found wanting. The Inspectors, who were 001004
clergymen of the Church of England, regretted te'bil3;
netional schools there was no real eduitation. The f
ren were taught nothing but the formulariet4 ,`,110.4"
Church, anti be hoped the Government would ete'oele':
themselves to be bound down to so hopeless and
a system. fetigctl
Sir R, ING LIS contended that no plan ° wor!cii
tion could, according to the Constitution, be sul
by grants of the public menies from the liouseeior,
ts as not based upon the principles of the Estaei,A
Church. He had heard the Noble Lord, the Pr
of of the Council, express opiniosis whic:e were incdn',
with this, and which he hoped were also at varian,', 04111
the opinions of the rest of her Maj,st
to
.'"5,0"
he trusted would rot allow that Ntsate-Losed
representative. What he consirlerd educatiellr°hsriS":;#
which was commenced in childhood, upoit `cf,hrie'e
principles, and perfected in adult life in the 4:ji poi*
Church, under Christian ministers. He coultler
down without expressing his gratification that "
jesty's Ministers were not following the example
Noble Coleaene it the head of the Council. aOiOs
Sir J. GRAHAM wells' not sit in silence and hear t of t)
putation cast upon his Noble Friend the Presided_o4l
Council, that he held opinioni which his colleagues. ettoFti,e
repudiate. His Right Hon. Friend (the Member f?r, is kw
University) professed _to be the greatest lover ofs oreet'o d/
House, House and yet, in a manner by no means accordielloces,
he alluded to speeches that were made in the other omega
(Cheers.) He was a supporter of the present •Goc 01P0
and yet he took the brat means of sowing distension the t to
them, and of lessening their influence, by representinV ttio
at variance with each other.—(Cheers.) With 'lt O e
what had been said last evening in the House of Lerf"oo roan
President of the Council, upon a Bill sent uP et"
House, he would say that his colleagues agrecl'oce tee
with his Noble Friend and when the Bla ft%
with the amendments proposed in the Rouse,' int
last night, it should have his support.—(ehee'irei tlOf
Hon. Baronet had -alluded to what had fall re "e'' se °,
an is
Noble Friend the President of the Council, and 11.50 peo„
the sentiments of his Noble Friend were contrary es),,totn,`,f
the Established Church. He (Sir James Gr'aWal'.,\see s
only observe that his Noble Friend had uttered those 'l3l' coo
in the presence of the Primate of all England, of th`.oel4cl
London, and of the whole bench of Bishops, and 'f *
have reference to any passage of that speech whic'e e)
trary to the doctrines of the Established Church, t'", ?F
ide, 1,
no doubt at once have repudiated t hem.—( Cheers- )„0
however, the Hon. Baronet the Member for Oxford,;
himself as a more efficient and better guardian of tfihee Olje
than the Bishops themselves.—(A laugh.) green
prig
Baronet had throughout his speech dealt in vague ti.jeee eer
and he had vet to learn what specific objection thewits
liarencet had to make to that speecie—e Hear.)
..rat
0 the
to the subject ot education, he would say, that it . ct, t tats`
tention of the Government to adhere on that subr trot t tot
minute of Council of 1839.—(Cheers.) It Kat 5• s
minute had been passed by their political opn°7-01040
should not be forgotten that it bail been pa," f e.
might be called a defeat—that it W3S the result 'he late,
raise, the terms of which had been dictated to t it 01 el
bt
vernment by their political opponents—that f'tbe 6,0 i;
measure of the Opposition which now constitutee,Y
..,$
,01
ment.—( Cheers. ) The Archbishop of Canter°l,elethi`i", t
Bishop of London were parties to it. The 3„,PricebioWieel,se.
inspectors was subj• ct to the veto of the " ,teelljte
Canterbury. To the provisions of that minetee'r ) 0 t
Government were determined to adhere.—(Chetesede t ot
the p:oeistous of that minute, no grant could b,: oversno,
0 the- teat e
classes as Exeter Hall ; and if her Majesty els '„,p
should deem it arliament 00 ,
distinct application r"'ell,l be. made to r roe e
xpedienr to propose a grant t for oh
rive
estimate would be P `,061
pose, and a supplernenta. , . seder o non
t regularly tsee.dutti oro
tarty bse,u2bsej subject tisikoeuludout7,, bort,
("CiLitinmens would, be
§l3"_,
subject. —(Chr ers.) If he were esisec,l
classes, bef tbet!,
nitro on the setsiect of Mr. Belle: roved owe,
Music was an inn- ,cent and a moral recreate).
c_uid , ye
oths_
have no heshatiee in saying, that be ,I,rend .be 46,1.
ment more desirable for the working
thereclasse for e wire r
vied. In addition to the singing classes
a,,r.on,
eitisses, one for arithmetic, one for weitin%
;°llos.i 6
ere,wing. N,w. he could no! irnag'"e ',set Ins , ele-pre
teriathio than these three cia,ses. ding the-eber use
Sete 00
' artisans.—( Hear. )
, .e. He said no! Tee persons fon. re II ,
C
were adults an.. • him with speaking as I)er tbe'' eek,
Montrose had taunted . Th. ,f he vel ebe ..
e lon. Mew _ca to oop
restraint. He could assere ricleacqe`ar,)
under no restraint, and that Ire nae, klY.'"( 1 I".°P° Aft' Ise
Member had said that the Govv.zeteletne: Dees.
eenersl 22,
he always endeavoured to speak, frra!
eat ought,".°lo,esv nt.ri
g ate!'. scheme—some
.„ • '
sre".l` aL , earl"
del irr
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