The Sun.
London, England, 1845-05-20 00:00:00

Group G.
BRISTOL AND EXETER BRANCHES.

The Committee, consisting of Mr. Liddell, Chairman. Mr.
Christopher, Sir E. Hayes, Mr. R. Yorke, and Mr. Entwisle,
re-assembled this morning at twelve o'clock.
The evidence in favour of the preamble having been gone
through, the Committee met to consider it; but
Mr. MERE, agent for Lady Georgians Fane, appeared on
the part of her Ladyship, who presented a petition upon
the Bill. It appeared that the petition of her Ladyship was
not presented three clear days before the Committee met; and
the Committee, under those circumstances, were in doubt
whether they could entertain the petition without the con
sent of the House of Commons.

The Chairman and Mr. R. Yorke went to see the Speaker
on the subject, and on their return,
The CHAIRMAN said that he had to state that the parties
who appeared on the petition were in good time,
but if the parties appearing for the petition were not now
prepared to go on, it could hardly be expected that the
Committee would adjourn for their convenience. The ques-
tion stood thus :—The Committee had only met before on a
project and did not sit formally upon it as a Bill till to-day,
because the standing orders came in after the resolutions of
the House. Though it might be considered in the first in-
stance as a project, it could not be considered as
a Bill till seven clear days after the second reading.
It was held that, in all cases of this nature, if the petition
was presented three clear days before the Select Committee
entertained the consideration of the Bill as a Bill such peti-
tics was in plenty of time.
Mr. THERE said that as he was now in time he would beg
to hear the evidence given in favour of the preamble.
Mr. AUSTIN said that the evidence had been already
gone through, and it was the duty of those who ap-
peared for the petition to be there when it was given.
It could hardly be expected that they, after complying with
the resolutions of the House of Commons and given evidence
in favour of the project, should now be called on to go over
that evidence a second time. The Committee must suppose
that the witnesses were gone home. But as they did not
wish to make any formal allegations, he was ready to call
evidence against that which he must call an ill-advised peti-
tion. The Learned Gentleman then read the petition, which
stated that she received no notice of the intended line, and
that it would injure and spoil her demesne.
Mr. Savory and Mr. Ward were then called, and gave evi-
dence against the petition. They stated that notice had
been given, and that the line was nearly or altogether the
same as the line which had projected in 1537, to which no
objection was taken by her Ladyship. Mr. Ward stated that
he did not call upon any of her ladyship's tenants and repre-
sent to them that her ladyship was favourable to the line in
order to get their signature.
Mr. Brunel was then called, and the purport of his evidence
was that the proposed line would not injure the house or
demesne of Lady Fane; that it was not nearer than three-
eighths of a mile, and could not even be seen from the house
of her Ladyship.
Mr. Giles, C. E., and Mr. Batten, were called on the part
of the petitioner. The former stated that a better and a
cheaper line might, in his opinion, be constructed along the
river Yoe. _ _ _

The Committee having consulted for a short time, they de-
cided that the preamble was proved.
The Committee then went on to consider the clauses.

Group L.

The Committee on Group L, comprising Mr. Becket De-
nison, Chairman ; Lord Clive, Mr. Oswald, Mr. Milne, and
Mr. Vyvian, sat this morning in Room No. 16.
Having arranged the order of business, the Guildford Junc-
tion Bill, which was unopposed, was gone through, and or-
dered to be reported.
GUILDFORD, CHICHESTER, AND PORTSMOUTH
RAILWAY.

Mr. CocKnuleN was retained for the promoters of the line,
and opened the proceedings by stating that the only means of
commurication between London and Portsmouth was by the
South Western Railway to Bishopstoke, and then by a branch
to Portsmouth. This was a distance of 87 miles, and occa-
sioned a considerable detour. The Directors of the present
line had purchased the Guildford Junction Railway, and it
was intended to carry on by Godalming and Haslemere
to Chichester. Guildford was not only the county town, but
also the centre of a great agricultural district, and the coun-
try to the south of Chichester was a considerable grazing
country, and if the stock or produce was not sold at Chi-
chester or Guildford might be rushed on to London. The
distance of Chichester from London was 62 miles, and to
Portsmouth 77 miles. One of the peculiar features
of this railway was, that on reaching Havant
it put out a line to Fareham, and by its corn-
munication with the South-Western Railway, formed
the coast communication for which there was already a Bill
before Parliament, in order to carry on the line to Dorches-
ter. It was intended to make the terminus at Portsea,
mediately connected with the docks, and there it would not
interfere with property of any particular value. The line was
supported chiefly by the South-Western Railway, who were its
original proprietors, and to whom the line would ultimately be
leased. This circumstance rendered the line not so popular in
Portsmouth as it ought to be, for ever since the Di-
rectors of the South Western line had selected Southampton
instead of Portsmouth for their terminus, there had been a
jealousy in the' inhabitants of Portsmouth of any scheme which
the South Western Company might project. After a little
conversation in which the Chairman stated his objection to
receive the report of the Board of Trade, who had expressed
a favourable opinion of the line, as any influential testimony,
Mr. Cockburn read portions of the report, in order to
bring the comparative merits of the lines to Portsmouth
fairly before the Committee. From this it appeared that
there were on the 65 planes gradients of 1 in 80,
extending over 14 miles 29 chains ; 19 planes of 1
in 100, and the greater portion of the remainder of
1 in 200, whereas on the Guildford, Chichester, and Ports-
mouth line, there were four planes of 1 in 100, extending
over four miles, and 70 chains, 6 planes of 1 in 100
extending over seven miles, 30 chains, and four extending over
fifty miles from 1 in 100 to 110, and the remainder not more
than 1 in 200. The respective tunnelling of the two lines
was 3,717 yards on the Guildford, Chichester, and Portsmouth
Line, and 4,234 yards on the Portsmouth Direct Line
The extent of railway which would have to be made
was in the latter line 69 miles 10 chains, and in the former
only 51 miles 60 chains. The distance to London by the
Direct Portsmouth would be to Hungerford-bridge 77 miles,
while by the other it would be to London-bridge 79 miles,
and by Stephenson's line 81 miles. From Chichester (the
only important town short of Portsmouth) to London, the
distance would be 80 miles, while by the other it would be
only 62 miles. By the formation of the Guildford,
Chichester, and Portsmouth line, the whole length
of communication on the coast line, by the electric telegraph,
would be completed, while if the Direct Portsmouth line
were adopted, it would be altogether interrupted. The
Direct Portsmouth Company proposed to work their line on
the atmospheric principle, but the advantages of this princi-
ple at present was mere speculative opinion. Incthhiceheess-teenrt,
of its proving a sound principle, the Guildford,
and Portsmouth Company were quite ready to place them-
selves at the disposal of any. branch of the Government, in
order to convert the line into an atmospheric railway.
Another advantage in favour of the South-Western project
was, that it had already expended 400,0001. in the formation
of the Bishopstoke line.
Mr. Marshall, a gentleman in business at Godalming,
and who also farmed a good deal of land in the neighbour-
hood, testified to the facility which the formation of this rail-
way would afford to the trade of Godalming and Guildford,
and especially in the conveyance of timber out of Sussex.
Competition would be excited between the Wey and Arran
Canal and the railway, and thus a saving in carriage would
be effected to the public. The cost to London wadasmaitbllhoseuartbeo9i
at.
rhe ton,present
i et
otmo omkutnhirceaet
oonr fourTh
There
eys
wereto several
Godalming and Guildford which ground for the London
market. The country about Chichester was a grazing
country, and great facility would be afforded by the pro-
posed railway for the conveyance of fat cattle to the great
markets, and in procuring coals, foreign timber, and oil-cake
for feeding cattle, a great advantage would also be obtained.
In all these matters, therefore, the formation of the railway
would be a public benefit, and, for himself, a saving of some
thousands a year would be effected in preventing the neces-
sity of hiring horses for the carriage of his goods.
Mr. Sergeant TALFOURD appeared for a Committee of the
inhabitants of Portsmouth, and stated that petitionshad been
presented to both the Houses of Parliament, signed by 10,000
individuals, and that the very great majority of the inhabit-
ants of that town were opposed to this line and in favour of
, the other.
Mr. GURNEY opposed the hearing of counsel of parties
whom he contended had no right to appear on the ground of
its being contrary to the usage of Parliament.
The Committee having decided that Mr. Sergeant Tar,-
FOURD should be heard, he proceeded to cross-examine Mr.
Marshall, who replied that London• bridge would be an i 132.•

practicable place for the deposit of timber, and that Vauxhall
was a much more convenient site.
To the cross-examination of Mr. Rawlinson, Mr. MA RS/IAM
stated that he was a Director in the proposed line, and a
shareholder in the South-Western line, but that he held
three or four times that amount of property in river and
canal shares.

To the renewed examination of Mr. GURNEY, Mr. Marshall
replied that the distance by the Direct Portsmouth Line from
Godalming to London would be forty miles, while by the
other line the distance would be thirty-three miles. The
number of the inhabitants of Petersfield was about 1,500,
while the population of Chichester was 10,000 or 12,0000,
and the trade between Godalming and Chichester was much
greater than that between the former town and Petersfield.
Mr. Mangles, M.P., testified to the necessity of communica-
tion between Guildford and Chichester by railway, and stated
that a company had been formed for that purpose last autumn
through whose direction the line was to be surveyed. The whole
of the district was richly cultivated, and tl:4 traffic would be
chiefly derived from the south country, while the atmospheric
line passed from Chichester to Portsmouth through one of
the poorest and most desolate tracts of the country. The
proposed line would be a much greater convenience to Guild-
ford market than-the direct Portsmouth. This was of im-
portance, as Guildford market was perhaps the highest
corn market in the south of England. Godalming and
Guildford were opposing places, but the greatest ad-
vantage would be obtained for both places b 7 the
Guildford, Chichester, and Portsmouth Railway. He had not
personally ascertained the population of the district through
which the atmospheric line passed, but repeated his impres-
sion that that part of the country was barren and deficient of
inhabitants. The other line, on the contrary, went through a
country rich and well peopled.
Mr. Edmund Nicholls, a tanner and currier at Guildford,
having a tanyard at Midron, and another in the town of Go-
dalming, said he had a considerable business there, buying
his hides in London and his bark in the neighbourhood cf
Godalming. He consumed about 13 tons of bark per week.
The country was hilly, and the tolls heavy ; and look-
ing both to purchases and sales, the proposed railway
would be in his estimation a great convenience, both to him-
self and the neighbourhood generally. Godalming contained
about 4,000 inhabitants, and near to it were several large
mansions and demesnes. The line of railway would pass be-
tween Godalming and Westbrook, the seat of Mr. Dlu.skett,
thus cutting off the communication of that house with
Godalming; and as a river flowed on two other sides of the
property there would be only one side open to the country.
But it appeared, from the cross-examination of Mr. Gurney,
that the estate was in Chancery ; the house, which for many
years had been uninhabited, was in a very dilapidated state,
and the communication with the town very bad. The two
lines of railway also passed so as to be equally disadvan-
tageous to the property.
Mr. Chennel, official corn-seller at Guildford, stated that
the quantity of corn brought to that market varied from 400
to 700 quarters a week. The supply came chiefly from the
south, and but little from Petersfield, and his impression was
that the intercourse between different parts of the country
would be greatly increased, though of course that would to
some extent depend on the number of stations.
Mr. George Sayers, a waggon-master at Guildford, stated
that the carriage through Guildford to London was chiefly
for live stock, and the return was for groceries and other
similar necessaries. This witness testified to the traffic front
the several places in the neighbourhood, and he stated that
by far the larger part of it came from Chichester, and but
very little from Petersfield, the business at the latter place
being trifling.
The Committee adjourned till to• morrow, at twelve o'clock

Group E.
NORTHUMBERLAND (ATMOSPHERIC) LINE.
This Committee proceeded this morning to heir the evi-
dence in favour of the promoters of the Newcastle and Ber-
wick line, and against the Northumberland (Atmospheric) line.
Mr—Bidder's evidence occupied the attention of the Com-
mittee the entire day. He stated that he had made
several experiments from the formula of Mr. Hawkesley, a
large gas manufacturer, and he found that on the atmos-
pheric system they could not procure a vacuum of fifteen
inches in less than nine minutes, with two engines of fifty
horse power each, and with twenty-two strokes per minute.
The greatest speed which could be attained wculd be CS
miles an hour. The resistance would be 14 pounds per tor,
and the train would meet the same resistance in return.
Forty-five tons could be carried at the rate of thirty miles
an hour on a level, with a vacuum of fifteen inch• ;
thirty tons would be conveyed at the same rate on a gradiet
of 1 in WO.

Mr. Bidder was then cross-examined by Mr. A.LExAyt)Eit
—He did not think that the valve in the piston wou'd k ,e
any great effect in stopping the train by admitting atm»
pheric air. It would not- admit it quick enough. He
thought that it would, in certain cases, have the effect
of retarding the train ; but in most cases it would
not be brought into play at all. He never saw a piston
fitted with valves for retarding. The revolving power
was objected to; it wore the engine. They were
obliged to use it passing stations, but they always
avoided it when it was possible. He adopted Mr.
Hawkesley's formula, and it was on that be founded all
his experiments, the application of Mr. Stephenson's for-
mula created what appeared to him to be anomalies,
because Mr. Stephenson did not allow sufficient
for the friction of the air. When he analysed Mr. Samuda's
formula he found the same. He believed Mr. Hawkesley'a
formula to be correct, and to account for the anomalies of the
formulas of Mr. Stephenson and Mr. Samuda. By Mr.
Stephenson's experiments a vacuum of eighteen inches was
obtained in three minutes all but two seconds. The leak-
age depends on the length of the pipe. The experi-
ments made with respect to the atmospheric resist-
ance were quoted in Robins's Mechanical Philosophy,
and were made many years ago by order of Government.
The result of these experiments, he believed, was Mr. Bruners
apprehension that he would not be able to attain a high
velocity on the atmospheric principle.
The Committee then adjourned till Wednesday.