The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-01 00:00:00

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doubt the utility of his propositions. Now -onat he would
propose was that instead of ten a2...0. of the line there I
should be twenty—not moored_ up in Portsmouth or Ply-
mouth, where there w"..5 a liability of all their services
becoming useless; :Jut In the Cove of Cork. His reason
for this pt74o.ltion was this, that in the Cove of
Cork they would have a full command of the Chan-
nel and all its bays.—(Hear.) In two months or
six weeks perhaps they would obtain a set of naval
officers of experience in their profession, and of high
character. But he believed that it was a very bad effect
which was wrought upon naval officers by serving in
small ships, and he felt assured that no education was
equal to that which was obtained by services in small
-vessels. There were several series of services in the
respective ranks to which he was happy to bear testimony,
but to the terms of which he was not quite ready to
assent. The Hon. and Gallant Admiral the Commander-
in-Chief had been said to hare been sixty-eight years in
the service.
Sir G. COCKBURN—That is wrong.
Captain ROUS—He believed, at any rata, that the
Gallant Admiral had entered the service in 1777, and
that would show the term of service which he had
stated. He thought it much better to have twenty sail
of the line effective in their department than ten sail of
the line lazy and useless.
Admiral BOWLES said that he thought these ob-
serv,'ations were superfluous and uncalled-for.

Captain PECHELL said that he had not the slightest
desire to confute the representations of the Hen. and
Gallant Admiral, but he did think that something was
due to the country, in order to assure them of the qua-
lities of the ships in the navy, and of the means by
which it was to be assured of the nature of the defences
-on which the country depended. He was the list man
in the world to disparage the efficiency of the navy.
He was not one to cry up the Russians, or to allow the
representations of Admiral Darini, of the French
navy, but he did believe that some alteration was
necessary, in order to render the navy effec-
tive in itself and satisfactory to the country.
He would therefore support the Gallant Officer in all
that could be done to promote so desirable an object;
but he, at the same time, hoped that he would give
those vessels a fair and proper trial. lie (Capt. Pechell)
did not blame him for turning frigates of large con-
struction into steam-vessels. He thought the experi
went was right, although he thought that such altera-
tions were not in accordance with the strictest rules of
ship-building—sawing ships in the middle and putting
engines into them, leaving the fore parts, the bad parts
of the vessel still standing. But still it was a different
thing to do that only once and to do it always; and he
did hope that when the Gallant Admiral gave orders to
construct other steam-vessels, he would place the pro-
pelling screw in them, at the same time adapting them
for that purpose. It was more than two years since he
had drawn the attention of the late Secretary to the Ad-
miralty (Mr. Sidney Herbert) to this subject, but it
was only very lately that he heard of the s) stems being
so far adopted that the screw was placed in the Rattler.
He had recommended some time before that the pro-
pelling screw should be placed in the royal yacht, but
that recommendation was not acceded to. He yet found
by the public press that a vessel to be attached
to the royal yacht was to be acted on in that manner.
At the present time it was absurd to talk of steam
frigates being used as vessels of war, when half of teo-e
vessels were required for the machinery and similar pur-
poses. He did hope that the construction of these ves-
sels would be on a different principle, and he thought
that the secretary of the Propelling Company would re
ceive the reward which his merit deserved from a grate-
ful country. They had been indebted to Captain
Symonds for great improvements in their naval architec-
ture ; for though he had not had the advantage of being
a ship-carpenter by trade, he was a thorough seaman,
and had opportunities of testing, and abilities to judge,
the merits of the ship. Thus he could remedy the errors
by supplying what was required by her. They were
also indebted to Mr. Whyte for certain improvements,
end he thought it was but right and fair, that they
should encourage competition. It was one of his quar-
rels with the late Admiralty that they did not encourage
Mr. Whyte. He had no hesitation, however, in saying
that their navy had arrived at such a state of perfection
that they might fairly set at defiance the naval power
of the world. He had not been in the House when the
Secretary of the Admiralty opened his budget, and he
rather thought that the Hon. Gentlem to had taken the
House by surprise on this occasion ; but, before he
acceded to this increase in the navy estimates, he should
wish to hear a few particulars as to the expenditure of
this public money. At this moment they were told that
a Committee was on foot in London, to endeavour to
sate rtain in what manner the treaties of 1831 and 1833
hail been carried out. They were told that a large sum
of money went to support a fleet on the coast of Africa,
which might, on to morrow, be withdrawn. It was
rather an unusual circumstance that treaties obtained at
so much labour, and so much cost, might yet
be, with seareely any notice, converted into so
much waste paper. They were told that the
Ministry of this country might find some other mode
of doing away with the slave trade, otherwise than by
retaining cruisers at the mouths of the rivers where
slaves were embarked, and in those other places where
they were landed. But it was curious to him to find in
every part of Europe parties flattering themselves that
they c auld by any other means than by cruisers do away
with this nefarious traffic. No complaint had, he be.
lieved, been made that they were not sufficient for this
parpcee. As for the question which had been raised in
the French Chambers, and entertained by the Minister
of this coantry, he (Captain Pechell) should be ashamed
to sit in his place as a naval officer in that llouse, if he
did not state his opinion on the subject. The circum-
stance of a French Minister coming into this country—
' into Downing-street—seemed to him the same as if
a thief were deputed from the " swell mob" to sit in
Scotland-yard with Colonel Rowan, for the purpose of
getting rid of the police officers. No doubt this commis-
sion and the Noble Duke, on the part of France, who was
a party himself to the treaty of 1833, would be glad to
get rid of this section of the British navy. Before the
year 1835, they had not been enabled, to any great
extent, to put down the traffic in slaves on the coast of
Africa ; for before that time the efforts of the officers
and men on that station had been completely paralised.
Since that year, however, he found that the British
cruisers had been eminently successful, and if they took
the two last years, they wou!d find there had been cap
tured eight vessels bearing the flag of the United States,
the Brazilian seventeen, the Portuguese sixteen, the
Spanish sixteen, the Monte Vilean five, and an-
other ship sailing under no flag, making altogether
sixty-three slave traders taken in two years, only nine
of -sthich, however, had a cargo of slaves on board, and
therefore ho thought that the British cruisers had shown
themselves peculiarly efficient. Had it not been for those
treaties, those vessels would not have been taken. In
conclusion, he hoped that the naval officers employed on
that coast, subjected to the pestiferous influences of that
climate, would be found deserving the support of their
country, so that when they returned with shat-
tered frames and destroyed constitutions, the Board
of Admiralty would give them that promotion to which
they were so justly entitled, and which they preferred
before any pecuniary reward which it was in the power
of that House to bestow upon them.
Captain CARNEGIE would only occupy the House
by making one remark in reference to the strictures
pass* d by the Gallant Commodore on the construction
of their steam ships. He (Capt. Carnegie) would only say
that he would deem it the highest honour to be placed
an command of one of them.—(Hear, hear.) He thought
'the Board of Admiralty, by their exertions for
the improvement of naval architecture, deserved the
support of the House, and the thanks of the country.
Mr. HUME admitted that observations made in that
jiouse on the state of the navy frequently produced good,
- and he, therefore, did not object to discussions of that
nature, but he must remind the Committee that they
were altogether running away from the question before
them.—(Hear, and a. laugh.) The question before them was,
what was the number of men to be employed in the navy
and what was to be the expense. He was one of those
who always advocated economy, but he never did so at the
expense of the interest or the character of the nation.
He could not however suffer that vote to pass without
opposition. At the same time he was sorry the Right
Hon. Baronet, the First Lord of the Treasury, was not
present, because the Right Hon. Baronet, when he
:brought forward his budget the other even-
ing, said he would reserve any observations
upon the proposed increase of the nary until
the navy estimates should come before the House. He
. had therefore expected that the Right Hon. Baronet
would have stated the reasons for augmenting or con-
tinuing the present number of men employed in the
navy. The present taxation of the country exceeded
-58,000,000/., and it was a matter of regret to him that
so few Hon. Members were present, when a large pro-
portion of that sum was to be voted away. They were
going to make an increase in the navy estimates, and
he wanted to know, from any lion. Member of the Ca-
binet, whether they could state any reason why the
naval force of the country should be so much augmented
over what it was in former years. For every
previous augmentation, they had had a good and suffi-
cient reason assigned, and he could not understand how
- it was that none was given now. The situation of this
country was much better now than it was ten years back,
and he therefore considered Parliament had a right to
ask the Government to give some good reason for this
proposed augmentation. The Committee must not forget
that they might do harm by maintaining too great a
force as well as by keeping too little, because it not un-
frequently happened that an increase in either our army
or navy excited the suspicions of foreign powers, and in-
duced them to augment their forces. In 1836 the num-
ber of men employed in the British navy was 115,100, I
bet in the present year it was proposed to increase it to
149.100, making a difference as large as 34,000, being
equal in comparison to the total force employed
in the 1792. It did appear to him then that they
ought to have some explanation from the Government,
as to the grounds upon which this augmentation was to
take place. The expense of the army, navy, and ord-
nance in 1835 was 11,000,0001.—that was 6,000,000/.
for the army, 4,900,000 L for the navy, and 1,000,000!.
fur the ordnance, making a total of upwards of
11,000,0001., but now the Government proposed to add
4,000,0001. to the expenses. Unless, therefore, some
satisfactory reason were given by the Government, to
justify it, he did not think it was the duty of the Com-
mittee - to agree to the vote.—(Elear, hear.) The
amount was one-fourth more now that it was in 1334 or
1836, and in the absence of any explanation, he must
snore as an amendment that the sum be 36,0001. instead
of 40.0001—(Heer, hear.)
Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT wished to say a few words
with regard to the question before the Committee ; and,
at the same time, he would take the opportunity of
replj i9gr te the Hon. Member who had just resumed his
'
(kw
.:The Hon. Member had said that no explanation
for any increase in the navy estimates.
with the Ron. Member. He begged
of this ststement, to remind the Coln-
,en hie Right Hon. Friend the First
Treasury proposed the contingence

_1 S

of the income-tax, he did so upon three
distinct grounds. The first was the impos-
sibility of any reduction in the army—the second
the necessity for an increase in the navy—and the third
the necessity for making great financial experiments. It
was upon these distinct grounds that the Right Hon.
Baronet brought forward the continuance of the income-
tax ; and he believed that, at the time, the explanation
gave general satisfaction. But the lion. Member must
not forget that it was a matter of importance that the
country should be protected by good and seaworthy ves-
sels, whose capabilities could not be ascertained without
some practical experience. To acquire this experience,
it was necessary that an experimental squadron should
be established, and this conid not be done without in-
curring great expense. It was only by experimental
squadrons they could test the capabilities of a ship or
a steamer, and the Honourable Member had heard
that the Government intended to resort to this expen-
sive source of gaining maritime information. But what
was the state of our commercial relations? Why, it had
been stated that in 1841 there had been a positive in-
crease of 35,000 men for commercial purposes. On the
coast of Africa an increase had been made in the naval
force, with the view to the protection of commerce, and
the suppression of the slave-trade. In China there had
been an increase of 100,000, and five vessels, for the pur-
pose of maintaining order in the merchant service, and
the protection of the British commerce in that quarter
of the globe. It was to he rem-mhered that piracies in
those seas were not eceasional and unexpected, or occur-
ring at distant intervals, but were systematically carried
on by the military chiefs upon the coast of Borneo and
the adjacent Islands, as a part of their state policy. The
lion. Member, therefore, could hardly object to any ad-
ditional increase being made in our ravel force, for the
advancement or protection of the commercial interests
of this country in that quarter of the globe.
The commerce of the country was daily extending, and
it must entail upon the public a corresponding extension
of the expenditure. The Hon. Menilpr had further
asked whether in this time of profound peace the Go-
vernment proposed to build line-of battle ships and in-
crease the dockyards, because other countries were use-
lessly incurring similar expenses ? Now, he (Mr. S.
Herbert) thought that nothing could be more impolitic
than to go on continually chaneeng our own establish-
ments in accordance with the changes adopted by
other countries.—(Hear, hear.) However, he would say,
look to the different position of this country and of the
others referred to. Those countries had not the same
amount of colonies that we had, and they would con-
centrate all their naval force within their own parts.—
(Hear, hear.) But the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Hume)
said he agreed with the Galls.nt Officer opposite that
there was no occasion to build more ships at present,
but that they should wait until war came, when, if they
had need, they could build fifty ships in one year. The
Hon. Gentleman had also said that they could man 120
new ships in a year.
An lloN. MEMBER-It has been done.
Mr. S. HERBERT—But they should remember that
an enemy would not put off hostilities until this country
was prepared with its full naval force.—(Hear, hear.)
And the House should look to what was the state of facts
at the present moment. The Government could not at
present, upon an emergency, immediately obtain an
additional stack of timber, sufficient to build five ships in
one year.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir C. NAPIER—Oh, it would come in.—(Hear.)
Mr. S. HERBERT—But while we waited for the
timber to build, our coasts might be blookaded.—
(Cheers.) Formerly, when we were in an unprepared
:tate, it cost the country a vast deal to build vessels in
a hurry, which were of little or no use. W e were
obliged to build ships upon the spurt of the moment.

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