The Sun.
London, England, 1820-06-03 00:00:00

made in t►►e Fmeign Department ; but a stin
greater reduction might be made. lie also con-
-siderc(l that great reductions might be made in
the Siorekeeper-General's Department. ft was
not his intenti..n to submit any motion to tlie
Ilonse on tbe subject : but be caned on it to con-
sider all matters ut redoc' ion.

Mr. WARD Sail, the Hon. Member had not
pointed out any particitlar offices which he wished
to be ps:t down. lie had stared, that 19 Foreign
Offices, connected with the Ordnance, had beet,
Mot dnovn by the Master-General. and that surely
proved that the Noble Didte was sincere in his
wishes for economy As a set-off against this
Teductino, the Hon. Member had mentioned the
miserable case of four
yoime men being allo.eed
451. a year as half-pay, who bad been terned out
nf bread, their offices being suppressed. The
Him. 6- or knian had compared our present situa-
tion with that of 1792 ; but would any mars say
that the two periods were,at all similat He must
know that the pay of the military was now nearly
double. lie compared the Estimates of 1788 with
those of thepreseutAay ; anal contended that we
bad 5000 men instead of 3000 ; we had a Driver
Corps whieli'diel .not diets exist, and tee had also
a more efficient Sapper and Miners Corps now.
The state of the -Empire had greatly altered. We
bad 15 or 16 new Colonies; besides the gun-wharfs
of the Navy, which Mete under the Ordnance
Department, had been doubled. There was an
army belonging to ns in the lonian Isles, which
ought not to he stifferecl to strirve ; but if the Ho-
nourable Gentleman would get them the 30001
flout any other source they ‘vonlil be very oriels
obliged to hint, It was well known that the Go-
Yet omen, was obliged to purchase gunpowder
where they could. 'lie consequence. was, tha.t
soaoy complaints were made of it *n the American
war. Government then established manufactories
of gunpowder, and since that time there hail been
tto comp!ain!s, anti we had now the hest gun-
powder in the world. It would not he worth
while to throw away the 300,0001. which the ma-
nufactories coat for the saving of 10,(}001. a
year.

7 Mr. CREEVEY condemned severs} items in the
Estimates, but principally are charge for the•for.
tific.4tions in Barbadoes. These, he c,,ntended,
ought to be provided for out of the 42- per Lents ;
turd he read an Act of the Aisemistv of Baibadoes
to that eifect. But the 4-1 per Cents %vete dis-
posed of another way. Sir Charles Long. bad a
pen.ion of 15001. a year out of them.. Sit Honig
Popham had ;j(,ol.—(an Hon. Member called
" For what services and Mr. C. anskveted
that he did not think it necessary to go into that
matter Fulke Grevillr, Lady Mansfield
and others, had annuities nti ihem ; and instead
of being devote.} to the reparation of those forts,'
they found their way into the pockets of these
Ladies and Gentlemen. fie asserted that this
Was a misapplication of the fund, and 1.4114 what
bud been go misapplied mast be gives back again.
The result of the management was that they
(Parliament) gave English money for rrraiittain-
ing iii fortiiiicatious-, anti other local purposes,
in the Leeward Islands, while site amount which
ought ro he appropriated to those objects passed
into the pockets of others. Such a proceeding
would not be long endured. In 1812 be had
brought before the House the enormous emolu-
ments of two Noble Lords who held the offices

e,t Tellers of the Exclitqn, r; but his mo!i,,n had
been almost kicked our. He was told of veced
interests and rights, and his proposition met a
very unfavourable reception, only 45 Gentlemen
voting for it. But all E.:gland was with him,
though .the Noble Lords were protected by tire
•Hoose, and the consequence was, that a Noble
Lord goon after found it expedient to resign a
portion of this extravagant salary. He mention-
ed this as a parallel case to the present. The
House might sanction the mis.applicatiun of the
4 per cents. but the voice of the country would
ultimately force them to redress the evil. For
himself he would oppose the grant in every stage,
anti it be failed in defeating it, would submit a
specific motion on the subject of this loud. The
Hon. Gentleman also questioned the authority on
which a pension of 120 W. was paid by the Ord-
nance. thou:it he did not object to the propriety
of the pension itself.
Mr. WARD would not now enter into a debate
on the great question of the Civil List, which had
been decided by large majorities. Besides, the
question of the Leeward Islands was open to the
Hon Gentleman's animadversion, and he might
make on it what motion he pleased. The Ord-
nance Estimates was a totally distinct thing from
the half-pay and superannuation lists.
The CHANCELLOR of .the EXCHEQUER depre-
cated the observations made by the Hon. Member
(Mr. Creevey) respectiLg a Nobleman who had
resigned an office secured to him by every obliga-
tion of justice and of right. It was a magnificent
act which ought to call forth the admiration not
only of England, but of the world.—(Cheers )
But
it appeared that the Hon. Member took
credit to himself for forcing two Noblemen to a
resignation by the cogency and weight which his;
arguments had with the public. This conduct he
could not help thinking both unfair and uncandid
on the part of the Hon. Member, and certaioly it
was such as won't: be no inducement to others
who held situations to follow the example of the
distinguished individual who had so nobly relin-
quished his just tights, from his magnanimous
regard to the public interest. But he (the
Chancellor of the Exchrquet) -could assure
the Honourable Member that the arguments
be had offered on a former - occasion hart had
no influence whatever with the Nobleman in
question ; nor was it likely that what he had
said to• Light would stimula.e the patriotism of
airy person who might be otherwise disposed to
make a generous sacrifice of a similar nature. He,
did not envy the lion. Member his triumph over
the feelings of such a man as the Marquess of
Camden—a man who would go down to the ad-
miration and gratitude of posterity. The Right
Hon. Gentleman then adverted briefly to the sub-
ject of the 4?-z. per Cents., contending they were,
from established usage, disposable at the wiil of
tine Crown.

Mr. HUME denied that the 4 Food had been
accounted hereditary revenue of the Croy, n from
1719 to 1786. Till the latter yr,ir they were
licld to be public revvnue.