The Sun.
London, England, 1842-06-18 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY 14_;VEN1NG: JUNE 18, 1842

‘sr the 1 Penp e out of doors than to the reasoning faculties of
embers ol the House. He trusted the question would be dis-
Pweed with calmness and argument, without any appeal to p-e-
-'hicta He considered the establishment of educational
as of questionable policy. It would lead to great ex-
e, and and be thought it unfair that illegitimate children aban-
-1""ed by their parents should receive a better education than
tialeflest parents had it in their power to bestow. He thought
see ergaznzalinn of district committees most. judicious, and he
te'Rrad to find the Go ,ernment had adopted measures fir the
erer -414ti°3 of apprentic'eships. He also was of opinion that it
naost important that the Gilbert Unions should not be
ai:ed to interfere with the unity of action which was so de-
evera le I°' the rood working of the Poor-laws. There were
aaomissions in the Bill, however, which he regretted.
karnna°r was of a clause authorising the boards of guardians to
tnean rangements for the payment of the comity .r. Lees, by
4061, cif which the office of high-constable might he
for "re,"ed, and the other was the omission of a clause
was —gulating the rating of small tenements. He
elee,.4lllch obliged to the House for the indulgence with
tkeL," they had heard his remarks. He had net adverted to
fate,,,'",.'ag of expense under the new system ; previously the
ext., "n` of rates had been ruinous. However, the saving of
eilse was not the object of the law ; it was to restore ha-
this of industry p to this British peasantry ; and
les ,ohject the Poor law was greatly calculated to advance.
,7-tinlselleved, on the whole, that it was founded on sound and
et,,e'oree principles, and he would not be deterred by any
6uPtliarity from ' supporting the Bill now before the House.
there such JOHNSTONE said that upon no question wasi
Houseeach contradiction of opinion as on that now before t
Iles ;L- Much had been sa:d of the uniformity of the system,.,
eaci see lion. Alember gave up that point. The present la
seeel't one man against another to an extent beyond any
tetp7" that had ever been passed. It had created a hatred
ore
eateleyer and employed. His chief ohjection to the
icssi re
as tne unconstitutional power which it gave the Com-
e"- He should be glad to know of what. use the As-
Itedees4Coenrnissioners were at all? One part of the measure
sa t'vee..'°Cally overlooked by the Hon. Member who had
the homely, the great difficulty the poor had under
enntresent lass of obtaning medical relief. He (Genet al )
11144'lirls'ance of a man having to walk twenty-nine miles
sae re °La end forwards for medical relief. No medical man
enor till:the third day. and en the fourth he was dead.
aiene" objection to the law was, that the vicious poor and
hie "'.'"ere treated alike. With respect to se hat had been
he ha relive to the Bassin.- of expense under the present system
elicin toebserve that, 'during three years previous to
.the
ace d!.°l' the present law the poor-rates were diminishing,
'atrietring the last three years they were increasing in every
a dee ; 'As to the difficulty of getting the guardians to attend,
fiend, adoss was of much consequence to the farmer, and if his
lth-n" as a guardian was 30 required he ought to be paid.
ateniu.litay:etreercetwtOasthnen Commissioners, if they had been of any
ground for continuing their pewee so. long
beta.. nkttle Proposed. In some of the items of t! e Bill now
teete Home they did not go far enough. Naeth respect
gildfa her, 6,,itardy clause, he must say he saw no reascn why the
d not be compelled to support the mother of the
e waisk.,"ag the time she was incapable of supporting herself.
kith r rialfosed to the workhouse test, which had been so
bjent`teth'd on by the Hon. Gentleman opposite, and be must
‘lfeari :the secon I reading ef this Bill as long as the extraor-
tirdeed.unlimited [rawer of the Commissioners was con-
olin
e4l thas t'Ls SIBTHORP objected to the Bill, on the grounds
twaot':ailed heavy expense, and useless expense on the
eielhe'
,""Itheut in any wise, though it had had a trial of
leve,eieeteesree bettering the condition of the poor. There
.t.vere
'atilt Uses at Uses its the present Bill upon which, when in Com-
'het ite."*.sustlel take the sense of the House. Ile regretted
'theo:4oUlti find himself obliged to support the motion of
AleTtijkietriber for Rochdale ( Mr. S. Crawford).
RIMSDITCH regretted to find such a Bill as the
ke-ealenating from the Conservative side of the House.
Selciir: that in every part ef the country this law, as now
set nit fored under the direeti in of the central power, which
the es'3omerset House was condemned by the great mass of
tolier,:il4- Upon a careful' revision of the present Bill, he
11,,..415Need the e Member
et/01,1 -that it was nothing mare nor less than the Bill of the
for the city of London (Lord John
tirseest: _ 'which had .been introduced. It was, to be sure,
seet,'4, nt differently. He did,,not know why the Commission_
Ise* "Ze.corninued for five years longer ; that meant that it
!Dale be. Perpetual, and if so, the people of this country
chin arms against it.--( Hear, hear.) The prin-
shocid9n wh his law were based were unconstitutional. Why
Z 0 the the his
have the power of a veto given
ciens7s, all eases. The Right Hon. Gentleman, in the Vac-
eett7 Bill he introduced, treated the Commission as per-
teet7,:and be opposed it on that ground. He was of opinion
1)167° Powers of the Commissioners ought to be annihilated.
teernittPower was despotic and tyrannical, and ought not. to be
ida.see any free country. He trusted the Right lion.
ltireas'e-le; would apply his master-mind 3. to the subject, and make
anion acquainted with the evils of the present system. The
te,,4l,at present were too extensive, and he hoped they would
seZie,rs In•pecters ought, in his opinion, to be introduced
.tettlel:lntend the workine of the , who would make
eets to the Secretary efhState. (These appeared to him to
i"nlee regulations, and would, he felt persuaded, be beneficial
print.°4lseed. The Hon. Gentleman then referred to the
erociples promulgated by Malthus, and adopted by Lord
leveglitan'e and said that the principles were unknown to the
of Et, egielation of England en the subject. From the time
olsep"!abeth to William the Third the laws relating to the poor
sled rfed in the most beneficial manner, but in the latter reign,
114 gl subsequent ones, Acts were passed to which the evils of
14,e oorsiew s)stern might be traced. Then came the present
%Deland he contended that it was quite inapplicable to the
10 re this country. Why should the people, if reduced
ci;na situation which would demand relief, obtain it only on the
situation
of being deprived of their homes, and having their
Patti and chattels sequestrated ?—( Hear, hear.) It was Hu-
hieh'u'e for the Commissi ners who pre.ided over
.the execu-
poef the law to enter fully into the wants and wishes of the
fie e'• Ile should feel it his duty, therefore, however unwil-
" te differ from the Government, to vote against the second
te,d, er
of the Bill.
eseltese. NAPIER said that there were some things in the
,Cireforelaw of whicilhe approved, and others of which he
thet nagl p ova" He objected, in the first place, to
penees.WerYs ofisath-)erCommissioners. He did not see why an ex-
ehitißl'lallowance should be made to those gentleman, for car-
*tee; —"atr,"a law among a class into whose wants they could tot
otit.` the objected to the principle of refusing, in all cases,
lie Zrelief. He could only say, that in the union in which
aithersettlerdian they had felt it their duty to grant out-door
Tat v_to.aged men and women, and they had not found
"„eate'",l'es to the parish funds had thereby been incurred.
I,l'enis:l;:e/ had not insisted en compelling parties to recrea'e
snints ut'eond the walls of the workhouse. He did not
orkin3 P°lftre to create among the people a feeling that the
in sees", whieh should be a refuee for the destitute, were
elahire. ,-Ytlnt stateepristins. He also°objeeted to the bas.tardy
"tele • efe did not think that it had had the effect of discou-
lleeittannorality • while it a eared to him to be cruel and
s„.ttnahl charge' unfort aspepwomen with the whole of the
-mittn •-• brineae-
; 6 g up theirun illegitimate children. In his
.t was unwise to compel a mother to reside in
'le thn "'lose with her child. It would be far better,
and
.4t.ahts to allow the clot
mother to leave the workhose
Eith"at enalfloyment'elseehere which would enable hereto
iettic,wa.towards the support of' her offspring. The present
'vat' eleont°llprevented her from leaving the workhouse without
ae de"' was cruel, oppressive and unwise. With respect to
le.s. he had understo d that they had given
44' Ikea and why, then, not let well alone ? He did
thneseenso.n why the Right Hon. Baronet should lay
tvilassa, t.,„„ unions. 'There were parts of that measure, he
in leeant-ats of which he approved ; but considering it as a
44 felt it ►to be hisd t to vote against the second read-
, Ale,u
tktli,lettli-nafeßnillik NI? said that the people of this.
.coun..try were
petthe se Mous in their opposition to the
...tiewould
seith"(nla se that in the north of England the lawearn
tseOtelate n "achy and oppression which was a disgrace to
t,13 the fe •• He challenged the Right Hon. Baronet, who
jt"t-lesseliTa.arthe pre-sent measure, to show
ins old
tre,so been ad 'west inefficient, and that the manner which
Kr4eeers "eel'
ted necessi'ated the appointment of Com-
"' Somerset House. That law had protected the
the had "': 4. •
and 1 called upon
*lit fterp,-_,‘"erl general satisfaction ; he
'ti tale is, i, "'cot to assign ally reason why they should sub-
'tete, ts stead mime" ure which was repugnant to the Con-
eiti 4 4, this cory.ln the south of England, no doubt, the
'a le `144 be
( 4'4'1(.4 00_ en abused ; but if properly executed it would have
tlytte, "Y Purpose which a Poor-law should. accomplish.
keetraet Ctan extract from a Report of Dr. hay, showing tne
asutte) Ween the labourers of the north and those of the
re Ha h ,
°lige ~ bad thus proved that the old Poor-law was well
ki,;loeg- iret'''`ted°Y the proprietors of the north. of England,
,but,
o,,eattee „ and abused by the proprietors of the south
tereasinn tie thought, therefore, it was a mighty system of
the 'aas le:4111141, the poor of the north should be punished for.
lie 'Nth. cif omission and commission ef she proprietors o
toeNee, t, The Commissioners found they could net carry out
sort' as it :°r-laws unless they removed the surplus popula-
esZY that. ti,s called, from the south of England, and he was
etimiatry h claim of the poor to a share in the soil of the
eeld have. been treated so lightly. They had a co:in-
t:as- 6Motet.t
„nil to it, and he hoped it would never be forgot -
de
14, 'lateral "3' of the poor of the south of England clung
de keen affection to the homes of their birth, and she Poor-
P"lee ra's'loners actually recommended. that they should be
4114•;:adta their homes by starvation.—(oh, oh ! ) Oh, ' he
c't: he art of a Report from an Assistant-Commissemer.
4,7`41, Jul
„ „re,
,eetornends it. It was a Report dated Man-
Iftee tote ‘-‘O, lef3s, in which he says, "Necessity must,
e of the etortteale now present population f om their homes.'
read them a letter from a manufacturerinthe
to lithe, ponngrl,aillad; who had been its constant communication
%ion!, L, eh "? Commissionets. It was from Mr. Greg
the Iterses.adwick, the Secretary of the Pour-law Comis-
of 4allsfionlensg a wish to open a correspondence with him on
tat,: f ul Procuring a supply of labourers from the south
the ember the north. No Report had ever been made of
to ale the r'f the poor kidnapped in this manner ; and he was
141 ter 416'1' as le it, but he thought he could prove enough.
e interference of the House. '1 he communication
te„utletre immense number of different descriptions et
es,atee that would be r. quired • and it was this he de-
to"Nier''t manufacturers of the. north should have
thorb see
a conspiracy with the Poor-law Commissioners
wese,tari
surplus population of the south. The Right
fre'thit h )4e,t might think he had not given sufficient proofs
the a Ash; "ad stated; he, therefore, quoted another letter
134144 firth. to E. Chadwick Esq. giving an account of
en 'ing", a family of four persons,' w' Ito had migrated from
that
kalushire. Another letter stated that employment
otsh "Was. tir,nished to twenty thousand of the poor of the south ;
the svas a proposal to kidnap that number, and was
oh) in which to treat the poor of England?—(oh,
It;rcui4nlllloshrotuulnditbyeagflaandsiwfearniny, Hon Gentleman would give
a speech. of his, in which he
":le.seeeaent.ain that this was not he case. Another letter to
et:•elelvtirsk stated
cettieso
,Stalk that twelve stout girls and boys had been
tl.O 110 t-a, ges and considered that too many hands
siettles,„ forwarded. Ile would not have trespassed on ekem'',"ilon of the House, if he had not thought
veit,414„:441111 responsibility attached to him, and as
tii-" lit r -of that
etwohatio House, he was going to hold up to
dze soli a a. publieservant of the Government for be-
ng into the most oppressive slavery those poor
441.niserable wretches.-- Dr. Kay, an Assistant
pl Isenittelssioner, had published a work called the
4-tßeical Condition of the Working Classes ems
kr110164
tkucenCotton Manufacture of Manchester." In this
teli‘leig free, °° the degrading and depreciating influence
treve„, Ills ceaseless and monstrous employment. And
s loenie7sconelition into which Dr. Kay became a paid agent
N." le the labou festifersh rers of the south from their green fields
tk qt ext r• (The licesourable Gentleman read some
ttat,.ll‘...lac_st:r describing the debased condition of the menu-
tss7nin evhithruth er
aattiseCn'''. li:it:their low diet, and inconvenient dwellings.
onev esation as then went on to quote from Dr. Kays
e Learned Gentleman spoke of the manuface
being freently the victims of inflame
";e4lise latafauehrlarea.."."e'•—(Cries of " Oh, oh," cheers, and
naseeh7,ll;e• ne knew what that cheer meant, but he
e wh. q-nge any Hon
IC i. Leh he sits , an etnber to lay his finger on a single
die3/441frivat,sex4f. herrd) had ever uttered, either in pub-
to , the ••t to inculcate loyalty to the Queen and obe-
efirftaasms,."s•—(Cheers and leughter.) He would say
entillt.ttese)lsnocriploysite, " Go,. and. do likewise."—( Shouts
t11711,,aeuz444.: 14! gaenfiterfehr litUardnesptiotlctiorpinions of Dr. Kay before he
.g the poor from the south to
reee esee,
p.. e a become an Assistant Poor-law
erasetot-n-
-blessings of the condition of the
15,.446.,.._ ;"---serJf aboglowing
,el'unthueedse sn the mostcolours. Would
Commissioners power for five years
• ' 711114 the
Commissioners tome to the bar, and say

that the labouring population of the south were beguiled?
Would they express their sorrow for lending themselves to the
system of kidnapping the poor from the south to the north?
Where, he would ask the Right Hon. Baronet, were the poor
who had already been passed to the north ? Could he
render any account of them to the poor relations immured in
the bastiles in the south ? If he could not render an account
of what had become of these poor the people of England would
not submit to this measure much longer. The laws of God
had been trampled on, and Ilis word scoffed at by the New
Poor-law, which denied the authority of the Bible. From tho
moment the Peor-law had become tin, law of the land the
trade of the districts to which these wretches had been passed
had deca4ed daily. These wretches had been passed from the
south of En, land, not fur their own benefit, but to save the
pockets of the rate payers. Saving of rates was the burden of
the song of the Poor-law Commissioners. When the law was
first brought forward it was declared by Lord Brougham that there
was no intention to carry it out in an oppressive mariner,
and that it was not intended to separate man and wife, or
parent and child. He (Mr. Ferrand) knew that those opposed
to the law frit as strongly as he did on the subject. He would
ask the Right Hon. Paronet, if the Commissioners had been
able to carry the law into force in the north ? They had not.
They could not. The mass of the population would prevent it.
In Isis own union ii had been attempted to be carried out in
the most monstrous and unjustifiable manner. It was a large
manufacturing district in a state of deep distress, and yet. the
Poor-law Commissioners, in order to carry out their absurd
ideas, had prohibited out-doer relief. If the Guardians
tempted to carry out that order, a worse state of ruin would in-
stantly ensue. They would have to summon the poor by thou-
sands for nun-payment of rates, and incarcerate them in the
county gaols, which would have to be made larger. They de-
ducted from the relief granted by the Board of Guardians to
the paupers the amount clue from them for summonses for non-
payment of poor-rates. Was it not monstrous that persons of
70 or 80, or 90 years of age, should be torn from their
homes and placed in a union illerkhouse, at the will
of these three Commissioners. How would the Right
Honourabte Barcni t carry the Poor-law out ? In his
(Mr. Ferrand's) neighbourhood, the relieving officer was obliged
to go about the country escorted by a troop of cavalry. The
men of the north had always done their duty by the poor—they
challenged any man to produce an instance of their having be-
haved ill to the poor whilst they were permitted to have the
management, of their own affairs—and all they asked was to be
pet mated to continue as they had hitherto gone on. It was not
twelve months since they had all appeared on the hustings before
their constituents. At that election how many of them had
expressed their utter detestation of the new Poor-law, and
pledged themselves to resist it to the uttermost.—( Opposition
cheers.) Were they determined to stand true to their prin-
ciples and professions. The electors of England were eas ly
satisfied. If they performed one twentieth part of what they
had promised, the Bill would not be carried.—( Cheers.) He
saw Pie lion. Member for Montrose shake h s head. He hoped
that those who were opi oscd to the new Poor-law were not die.
posed to vote that black was white. He trusted they would not
desert their pledges ; if they remained true to them this hill
would no longer disgrace the St ttuteebook of England. The
poor wou'd be properly treated, and not be delivered over to the
tyrants of Somerset House.

Sir. J. GRAHAM said that the Hon. Gentleman who had
just sat down had asked if any Member would, after the state-
ments he had made, venture to press the second reading of the
Bill upon the attention of the House? Notwithstanding that
challenge, he ( Si: J. Graham) was prepare d to press the see
cond reading of the Bill. With respect to the observations of
the Hon. Member, in which he alluded with a sneer to the
benevolence of Dr. Kay, he (S.r J. Graham) must say that a
more truly charitable and accomplished gentleman, and one
more fitted to discharge his duties th n Dr. Kay, he had never
known. As to what had been stated about the power of the
Poor-law Commissioners, and their mode of using it in issuing
prohibitory orders, he must say, that if he wished for any test
by which to try the discretion of those functionaries, he would
take the manner in which they issued those prohibitory orders,
and abstained from them as the case seemed to require. The
Right Hon. Baronet here proceeded to quote at considerable
length the Report of Mr. Mott, showing the mismanagement
that had characterized the mode of giving relief to the poor,
and the necessity of applying a remedy, and then went on to
show the jobs which had been committed under the sanction
of the Guardians in various Unions, and particularly in the
Union of Keightley, where, accarding to a resolution in the
minute-book of the Guardians, the trials of settlement eases
were to be given in rotation to the attorneys of the town.
The consequence was that the law expenses for the last year
in that union were upwards of SCOI. He had not in-
ter (led to rise on the present occasion, but having heard so
unjust an attack upon Dr. Kay, as the Hon. Member for Knares-
borough had made, he could not sit by without rising in
defence of that gentleman's character. But to return to the
subject before the House, who were the Hon. Members that
proposed and seconded the rejection of the Bill ? One was an
Irish Gent eman (Mr. S. Crawford), who could not have seen
the working of the measure, anti Who being Member for the
only large town in England (Rochdale) which was not under
the operation of the Poor-law, could not be practically conver-
sant
with it. The other gentleman was the Hon. and Gallant
Member for Brighton (Captain Pechell), which was under the
operation of a local act. On the o her hand those were the
most ardent supporters of the law, who were connected with
places where it was in full operation. The real question now
was, whether the Commission was to be continued, or not; fur
the other parts of the Bill were mitigations of the existing
law.—( Hear, hear, hear.) When Hon. Gentlemen proposed
a substitution for the Commission, the substitute they sug.
Bested was something very like what they would
do away with. The Honourable Member for Roch-
dale proposed an ambulatory Commission, which was
the existing Commission without the mime, and the Hon
Member for Macclesfield proposed district Commissioners.—
( Hear, hear.) There were four reasons on which he justified
the continuance of ,he Commiision. The first was that relief
was given gradually and safely ; the second, that what was
found to be injurious in one union might be remedied by them
in the different unions thri.ughout the country ; the third
reason was, that if anything illegal was done, relief might be
had from the Supreme Courts of law ; and the fourth, and
strongest reason was, that recourse should be had to the local
Magistrates, which would let in all the abuses of the old sys-
tem, of which an illustration was afforded by the recent pro-
ceedings in the Keightley Union. He had troubled the House
at greater lergth than he intended, but after the calmest and
fullest consideration of the subject he came to the conclusion
that the original enactment was right in the main, a: .d believing
it to be right he was regardless of the censures that might be
passed on him and on his motives ; but he (lid not think he
would be doing his duty if he did not urge upon the House the
second reading of the Bill.—(Cheers.)
Mr. FERRAND, in explanation said, that he. plelged him-
self that the report of the Assistant-Commissioner with regard
to the Keightley Union was false.
Mr. S. WORTLEY did not think it necessary to detain
the House for any length of tittle, and for this reason, that the
main point was whether the Commission was to be continued.
He was determined to maintain the opinions he expressed upon
the hustings, and he would be belying his convictions if he be-
lieved the Eight Hon. Gentleman,_ or the Commissioners, or
Assistant-Commissioners; were what they were sometimes re-
presented to be—demons and tyrants.—(Laughter.) He cer
tainly differed wi-h them in opinion upon the :subject of the
Poor-law, but with regard to the continuance of the Commis-
sion, he held it to be impracticable and impossible to remove
the central Commission at present, and if he voted for the se-
cond reading he did so in an abstract sense. But that did not
prevent him- from evincing a general hostility to the Bill.
lie, therefore,suppot ted die continuance of the Commission only
while a necessity for it existed ; but they should not forget the
grounds of its institution, and that it was established only for
specific purposes. He should not, therefore, be considered as
supporting the Commission as a permanent institution, but
only so long as the exigency for working out the purpt ses in
which it originated existed. With regard to the Bill Wore
the House, he admitted there were improvements on the existing
law ; and one very considerable improvement was the afford-
ing temporary relief to families under certain circumstances.
These were, however, but matters of detail. The principal
question before them was, whether it was a lvisable to agree to
the second reading of the Bill, taking it as a whole. Of the

powers of the Commissioners he could nut app►ove ; and
he could not but express at the same time his dis-
approbation of the manner in which those gentle-
men had constructed the unions. Many of the unions
were too large ; and this had been found to be a source of
great inconvenience. He earnestly wished that the House,
taking into account the inapplicability of the measure, would
re-consider the whole question. He thought that they should
take into considerat'on the pr, pt iety of intrusting the execution
of the Poor-law to the local authorities. The principle of self-
government was one of the most valuable principles of the
social condition of England. 'I hey might, under the authority
of the Commissioners, gain greater uniformity in the adminis-
tration of the Poor• law ; but that advantage would, in his
opinion, be too dearly purchased by the loss of those habits of
self-government which had become familiar to the people of
this country. He did not say that they should at
once get rid of the new system; but he thought they should
endeavour gradually to return to the old principle of entrusting
she administration of poor rates to those who, by their posi-
tion, were best acquainted with the wants of the poor.
Colonel WOOD (Brecon) was one of those who would wish
to see the Bill divided into two parts. He would be glad to
find the Government prol•ose that the authority of the Com-
missioners should be continued for a limited time ; and he

thought they should afterwards consider, in the next session
of Parliament, the propriety of introducing many alterations
into the present system. He disapproved of the principle cf
making the casual poor chargeable to all the unions, instead
of making them chargeable to the parish in which they were

living.
Mr. LIDDEL thought that the House should not at once
put an end to the authority of the Commissioners. He thought
such a proceeding would be impolitic ; but, at the same time,
he could not vote for so long a duration of the Commission as
had been proposed by the Government. fie should not, how-
ever, vote against the second reading of the Bill, as he believed
it might be materially improved in Committee. The principle
that the workhouse shou:d be taken as the test of destitution
was not, he thought, applicable to the manufacturing dis-
tricts. In periods of deep and general distress, such as the
present, relief should be given out of the workhouse to de-
serving objects. It appeared to him that a greater degree of
discretion should be placed in the hands of the local boards;
and he did not wish to see the entire administration of relief
under the immediate control of Commissioners resid-
ing at a di-tance frorri the scene of distress. He had expected
that his friends now in power would not have sanctioned
the present system of Poor• laws, and he was sorry to find that
he had been disappointed. Unless the Bill were materially
altered, he should certainly feel it his duty to vote against the
third reading. He was decidedly opposed to the power as-
sumed by the Government of at once, and arbitrarily, abolish-
ing the Gilbert Unions.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the House di-
vided, when there appeared,—
F.r the second reading
Against it
Majority far the second reading -199
The Bill was then read a st cond time, and ordered to be com-
mitted on Monday.
FOREST OF DEAN.

The Report on the Forest of Dean Ecclesiastical Districts
(Advance of Money) Bill was reported aftei a short discussion,
Mr. Hume withdrawing his opposition to the bringing up of
the Report. upon an understanding from the Right Hon. Ba-
ronet, at the hi ad of the Government, that the next stage
should be taken at an early hour, and full opportunity given to
discuss it.
On the motion for the third reading of the Dean Forest Poor
Bill,
Mr. G BERKELEY moved that the Bill be read a third
time that. day six months,
Mr. T. DUNCOMIIE moved that the debate should be
adjourned.
After a few words from Mr. HOME and the Earl of LINCOLN,
Mr. G. BERKELEY suggested to the Hon. Member for
Finsbury to withdraw his motion for adjourning the debate.
Mr. T. Duncombe acceded to this suggestion; the motion
was withdrawn, and the House divided, when there appeared—
For the third reading of the Bill
Against it
Majority in favour of the third reading
The Bill was then read a third time, and passed
ASSESSED TAXES BILL.

The Assessed Taxes Bill was then read a third time, and
passed.

MERCANTILE MARINE.

Sir CIIARLES NAPIER. moved for a " Seeet Committee
to inquire into the state of the Mercantile Marine, with a view
to ascertain whether our seamen are on the increase or de-
crease, and whether the Registration Bill is effective or not."

If the motion were likely to lead to debate, he would with-
draw it.
On an intimation from Sir R. PEEL, we understood that the
motion was withdrawn.
BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
In answer to a question from Captain PECEIELL,
Sir ROBERT pEEt .said that the public business would
commence at Half-past:T4ii'euqtionday.
The House then adj(itiriled :it a'Qualerio One o'Clock.

HOUSE OF LORDS, june 17.
Their Lordships met at Fixe o'Clo k.
On the motion of-Vt-Ihtiti4 ii_,OLLINGTON the
•
Sugar Duties Bill wa,*: r^eAd4,:Onrd..titne and passed.
H E (4t)T.E:;s7li-f41411'E11,.
Lord CLONCURltVin'qiiied-'is-liather any portion of
the money collected,- in7ronsequence of the Queen's
letter, would be applied to the relief of the poor in Ire-
land ?

The Duke of WELLINGTON said that if the Noble
Lord had given notice of his question he would have
been prepared to answer it. Ile would give the answer
on the first day the House met again.
Lord FPI ZG;ERALD said that the collections were
all made in England and Wales, and Ireland had cun•
trihuted nothing.
Lord CLONCURRY said that subscriptions had ben
raised in Ireland, but they were inadequate, in conse-
quence of the incomes of the gentry being spent out of
the country.
The Earl of RADNOR wished to ask one or two
questions before the business of the Income-tax came on.
lie wanted to know what was the reason of the distinc-
tion of 21 in Scotland and 31 in England ?
The Earl of RIPON said that in the former Income-
tax Bill the tenant was charged upon two-thirds of his
rent. But it was found that this operated unequally
upon the Scotch tenants, who paid higher rents in pro-
portion than the English.

T 111;; INCOME-TAX.
The Earl of RIPON rose to propose the third reading
of the Income-tax, and in dohig so, he would have to
draw upon their Lordships' attention noire largely
than he should wish, but ho would endeavour to
compress into the narrowest compass what he had to say,
by treating the matter as one merely of business, and
by avoiding the introduction of topics which would
lead their minds from the consideration of the Bill
itself. The first thing would be to bring before them the
actual state and condition of the fina,nc.s of the country,
which was the foundation of the Bill. During the last
few years there had been a ct.mtinued deficiency in the
Revenue in the following ratio:—ln the year 1833 the
deficiency was 1,423,0001.; in 1839 it was 430,0001.;
in 1840 it was 1,457,0001.; in 1841 it was 1,51,000/.,
and this year, 1842, up to the sth of April the de-
ficit ncy was 2,139,0001. The deficiency had been
largest in the two last years. Titis alone would be euf-
cient to show the unsatisfactory state of the country, es-
pecially when the circumstances were considered which
occurred whilst the habitual deficiency was going on
and it would be impossible to melt the exigencies of
1843 without resorting to some new measure of finance.
The revenue of the year amounted only to 48,353,000 L,
whereas the expenditure, reduced as far as cir-
cumstances would permit, amounted to 50,944,000/.
the deficiency being 2,594,0001, and taking toeseiher the
deficiencies of the six years there was an actual defi-
ciency of 9,593,000/. The deficiency of 1841 was
greater than that of any of the antecedent years,
although there had been an actual increase of the re-
venue
from the finanbial measures of the Government,
which however, although successful to that extent,
was not sufficient to meet the expenditure.
The great increase in the expenditure of late years was
entirely in those great items of expenditure denominated
our military establishments, and which it had been
found necessary largely to increase, with a view to
ensure the honour and character of the country. In
the year 1838, the expenses of cur army, navy,
and ordnance, amounted to 12,827,000/. In the year
1839, these expenses amounted to 13,273,000/. ; and
there was in that year an additional expenditure
in Canada of 500,000/., making the total military expen-
diture of that year 13,773,0001. In the year 1840, our
military expenses amounted to 13,762,0001, and the ex-
traordinary expenses of that year were 716,000/., making
a total of 14.478,0301. In the year 1841, the ordinary
military expenditure was 14,012,0301. ; and the whole
expenditure, including the entlay in Canada and Chins,
amounted to 14,617 ,000 E In the year 1842, that was to say,
up to the month of April of the present year, the oral- •
nary military expenditure was 14,705,000; and when to
that was added the extraordinary expenses in Canada
and China, the entire expenditure of the year amounted
to 15,348,00(i. There had, therefore, been an increase in
our military expenditure, eince the year 1838. of upwards
of 3,000,0001. Neither did he see any prospect that that
expenditure would, for sonic time to come, be diminished.
They had wars in the East of which the) could n t cal-
culate the termination ; and it would even re. w be
necessary to make good a deficit of 700,000/. in the
axpcnses of the China war. T__e total deficit in the
r. venue at the expiration of the year 1812 amounted to
10,000 0001. ; tint! as there was no prospect that that
eficiency would be :upplied by a fortunate t oncurrence
of events, that was the basis of his arguments for the
imposition of the tax upon incomes ts hich he was about
to propose. The necessity of equal sing our revenue and ex-
pendiaire, he thought he need not argue. It was plain that it
was not safe to leave the revenue of the country with an in-
creasing deficiency. One of the reasons of the deficiency was
the reduction or, the postage, and on that occasion the defi-
ciency was 2,332,0001. ; and then Parliament proceeded to
enact new takes to the amount of 2,337,0001. It became ne-
CO, ary, when the present Government came into office, that of
many articles which were imported from foreign countri..s, and
upon which duties were levied, a thorough revision should
take place. This was shown the more necessary from the im-
port duties having but a year or two ago b: en raised in some
eases as high as twelve per cent. Having had some experi-
ence in these matters, he had always found it more difficult to
take a tax off, and more likely to create dissatisfaction, and un-
easiness, and alarm, than it was to put that duty on. Ot
course they had had to contend with those difficulties, and he
thought no one would say that they had not done their duty in
laying a foundation for a better arrangement and adjustment of
those duties. They could not of course carry this object into
effect without incurring a considerable loss of revenue. They
had, then, to consider what the amount of deficiency would he
without an alteration of th" tariff, and also what it would be
with that alteration. The estimated deficiency, supposing
that no alteration had taken place in the tariff, was 2,594,0001.,
and the estimated loss in consequence of a reduction in the
tariff was taken at 3,780,000/. It was, therefore, necessary to
impose additional taxation. The Income-tax was estimated to
produce 3,700,000/., and alteration in the stamp duties in Ire-
land 160,0001., and the spirit duties in Ireland were estimated
to produce 250,000/. It was also briginally estimated that
200,000/. would be realized from an export duty
on coal, but owing to some modification it would
not exceed 160,0001., the whole of these taxes being
4,310,000/. Out of that they had to deduct the deficiency for
the year of 2,700,0001., which would leave 1,740,000/. From
that they had to deduct the loss by the tariff, which would leave
a surplus after meeting both cases of 520,0001. It was therefore
impossible to meet these deficiencies by any other plan which
possessed so few objections. The addition of 10 per cent. to
the assessed taxes did not realise the expectations of those who
had of iginated it. He therefore thought they had sufficient
ground for the proposition of her Majesty's Government. He
was aware that it had been said that they could re-establish
taxes which had been taken off in 1815. Nothing could be
attended with more difficulty than this. It appeared that since
the war the reduction had been no less in the Customs than
9,921,0001. In the meantime, however, Parliament re-imposed
3,746,000/. It was, therefore, clear that any attempt to make
good the deficiency by raising the Customs duties, which had
been reduced upon the very principle which regulated the new
tariff, would fail. For instance, the duty open cotton wool
which supplied labour to so large a portion of
the population. Since the war the duty upon that article had
been reduced to the amount of 1,324,000/. What would be

the consequence of re-imposing that duty ?—( Hear.) In fact, '
nothing Lut the consideration of revenue could justify the re-
taining of the duty that was row levied upon it. The next
was the duty upon tonnage. He thought that no one would say
that this duty should be again raised to its former amount. He
believed that, looking to the increasing competition of foreign
mar.ufacturers, no one would say that it would be right to raise
the duty upon raw material. . As to the duty upon coal, would
any one say that it should be increased ? Again, look to silk.
Would you recommend that the duty upon that commodity
should be increased, when it was of such vast importance to our
own manufacturers? If he were to go through the whole of
these items, he could convince their Lordships that it would
be impossible to raise 100,0001. in that way. Coming to the
Excise. There had been since the peace a reduction altogether
of 10 000,0001. Would they re-impose that ? Take the first
article, malt. Ile was one who had always resisted the total
repeal of that tax. But would any one say that it should be
raised? The next article was salt. Was it not the general
outcry against that tax, whilst it existed, that it deprived the
poor of one of the necessaries of life? He was sure that none
of their Lordships would recommend the reimposition of that
tax. He said the same of the tax upon leather, for the
collection of which the most clumsy and vexatious
contrivances had been necessary. Great reductions had
taken place in the Excise upon spirits. In the
late regulations of the Government there bad been an increase
of one shilling upon Irish spirits. But in raising the duty upon
that commodity it was necessary to take care that they did not
give encouragement to that most demoralising of all practises
—smuggling. In that article there could be no increase. With
respect to printed calicoes, no one would think of re-imposing
there a duty of 2,500,0001. for the sake of a revenue, which.
with the drawbacks, yielded only 525,000/. It could not be
supposed that it would he palatable to the country to reimpose
the stamp duties on law proceedings, which were very properly
designated as taxes upon justice.—( Hear, hear.) Next was
the tax on advertisements. Those yielded 147,0001. ; they
' had been considerably reduced, and although the revenue had
not quite recovered from the reduction, still the number of ad-
vertisements had been greatly increased, and the public pro-
portionately benefited. Then there was the reduction of
391,000/. taken in 18.36 off the tax upon newspapers. He
did not think that the House of Commons would be disposed
to re-impose that tax, and he was sure that such a proposal
would not meet with the approval of the members of the late
Administration, with whom the reduction had originated.
It might, however, be said that they might increase
the revenue, by an addition to the assessed taxes. He
doubted, however, whether such a course would be acceptable
to the country, or whether it would in itself be politic. They
had, for instance, abolished the house dax, and he questioned
whether it would now be advisable to re-impose it. No tax
would be felt more grievously by the poor, than such a tax • it
would render their dwellings still more uncomfortable than
they were at present. So, again, with respect to the window-
tax ; its re-imposition would press severely upon the humbler
classes. It might, however, be said that they could impose
those taxes exclusively on the rich. But it should be observe I,
that if they were to adopt such a course, they would hold out
an inducement to parties to evade such taxes, by reducing their
expenditure. He thought he had said enough to show, that
by no change in our taxation could the present deficiency in the
revenue be supplied. There were some parties, however, who
thought it advisable that we should increase our revenue by a
fixed duty upon corn. Now, he should say that he doubted
the polio), of making a duty upon corn a part of a fixed fiscal
plan. It would be most unsafe to rely upon it as a source of
revenue, as the amount of duty to be raised by such means, would
necessarily perpetual:y fluctuate. Then then:: were the articles
of sugar and corn. They could not, consistently With good policy,
raise a large duty upon timber, which was an article of hourly
use, and of the utmost importance. It entered into ma' ma-
nufactures, our buildings, and cur shipping ; and he did not
think that any party would wish to see a large amount of
revenue raised by a high rate of duty upon such an article.
Sugar was the next item. The idea which had occurred
with respect to sugar, had been recently sta.ed elsewhere. It
was said that a reduction in the duty would benefit the con-
stirrer. Now he was ready to admit that a reduction of the
duty would do so if it were carried far encugh ; a small reduc-

tion would have no good effect. Let them see the effect on the
revenue. The proposition was 4s. on one-sixth of the present
duty, and on foreign it was 30s. instead of 635. Now, what
would be the (fleet of that, ? In would, in the first place, be to
diminish the revenue derived from British sugar one-sixteenth.
In 1841, the net revenue derived from sugar was 5,114,000/. ;
consequently, if that duty of 20s. had been levied instead of
245., the effect would have been to reduce the amount of that
one-sixth, and there would be a loss of 852,000/. But the
as umption was not only a loss, but that there would be an
increase to the_ revenue, arising from that charge, estimated at
700,000/. ; so that, by this plan, they were to lose
852,0001., with a gain of 700,000/. to meet it. The
consumption of the last year was the largest ever
known in this country. The consumption was equi-
valent to 24ilb. per head, and the average price was
375. IV., exclusive of duty. The duty being 205., according
to this hypothesis, would raise the price to 575. lid. In the
years 1830, 1831, and 1832, the price of sugar was remark-
ably low:
Years. Price. Duty, Total.
In 1830
1831
1832 ...... 275. 6d,
the average price for ti:e three years being 50s. 3d. Now, to
reduce the price from 245. to 305., would have the effect of re-
ducing the price down to the average price of those years.
Now, what cold be tie amount of that addition to the con •
sumption, which was about Ilb. per head, and would an-.ount to
8.328 tons of sugar ? The total amount of consumption would
be 218,7:1 tons, producing an increase to the revenue of
218,0e01., and this to meet 820,0001. loss. These were the
grounds in on which he defended the course adopted by her
Mejeety'e Government—the situation of our finances, without
any prospect of a reduction in the expenditure, would justify
the course they had pursued. It was absolutely necessary to
make a great shirt once for all, and therefore he conceived,
that in spite of all the objection—in spite of all the supposed
beeefits offered by other schemes—schemes more plausible, in
one sense— in spite of all, lie still thought their Lordships
wauld do well to follow the example of the other House of
Parliament, and pass that 13111 as the most efficient mode of
meeting the exigencies, which must be met somehow, and
which, if they oid not meet, they would expose the.country to
the greatest i.ossible evils.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE rose to more the resolution
of which he had given notice for the second readine of this
Bill. He was happy that his absence had not retarded the
progress of this Bill, which it had never been his wish to ob-
struct.—(Hear, hear, from the Duke of Wellington.) All
that he widsed was, to have an opportunity, with those who
agreed with bins, of expressing his disapprobation of the mea-
sure. He entirely agreed with the Noble Lord who had just
addressed the House, that it was necessary that the revenue
should be raised to an equality with the expenditure, and that
the deficiency ought not to be made up by an addition to the
national debt.—( Hear.) Neither did he think that anything
could be done by reducing the establishments of the country,
which were rot greater than the exigencies required. As to
the present difficulties of the country, he was neither so san-
guine as to suppose that they were immediately to terminate,
nor was he so desponding as to apprehend that they were to be
permanent. But he agreed altogether with the Noble Lord
that the deficiency was to be dealt with, without these conside-
rations ; that it was to be supplied without considering whether
it was for this year only or for many in prospect.—( Hear,
hear.) But then he came to the question of the
Income-tax as a substitute for all those taxes which at
present were in existence. It might be a great and beneficial
change from the present system of taxation to cne of income—
it might be a beneficial change : but it was one which they
were not in a condition to discuss. It was a change, which
was not warranted by a deficiency of two millions ar.d a half.
It would stand to reason at all times that when they were called
upon to make good a deficit they should do so as far as pos-
sible by modification of existing taxes. How much more so
was that necessai y when they considered the distress and suf-
fering of a large portion of the population ? In such circum-
stances, if they were compelled to resort to direct taxation, it
should be to tiiat mode which would be the least burthensome
and the least unpalatable. Let them see how this applied to
the Income-tax. The book was on the table; it was large,
thick, and voluminous; it was a gigantic offspring of a five
months' labour.—( Cheers.) It was certainly an effieacious
tax. So was the lancet an efficacious instrument. The tax
would surely draw the mosey from the pockets of the people
as the lancet would draw blood from the veins of the patient., or
from the arteries perhaps, as there was litt'e discrimination
in the mode of applying it, or regard to the consequences
which would follow to the constitution or comfort of the patient.
Efficacy was the sole recommendation of the new tax. It had
been elsewhere boasted that the tax would affect the rich alone,
that, in fact, they were taxing themselves; but was it not really
the case, that this tax struck immediately at that capital which
put the labour of the country into activity, and that. the only
savings by which those who paid it could relieve themselves of
the burden, would came from that fund from which employ-
ment was given to the people? An Income-tax was a gigantic
instrument, which had been used in cases only of the greatest
exigency ; and he could not but feel surprised that the Govern-
ment had thought it necessary to have recourse to it to meet a
deficit of 2,500,000/. It reminded him of a party who had an
elephant sent to him, which he employed in his garden in seve-
ral trifling services ; but he soon found that the trouble of
keeping the elephant more than counterbalanced the services
which the animal rendered. The Income-tax had
in addition, the great disadvantage of being essentially
an unequal tax. It was unequal, even with respect
to the landed proprietor • for although parties might seem to
have the same interest inland, there were various circumstances
which, in reality, rendered their interest very different. It was
very unequal as regarded tenants, whose interest in their hold-
ings was influenced by various circumstances, which could not
be taken into account by the collectors of an Income-tar. But
the tax pressed still more unequally on trades and professions,
which were for ever varying and uncertain. He had a still fur-
ther objection to an Income-tax, in the fact of its being one of
the most inquisitorial nature. He thought he hail said enough
to convince their Lordships that nothing but an abso'ute neces-
sity could justify their agreeing to this tax. He denied that
this necesdty existed. He believed that there were other
means of increasing the revenue. He was not going to revive
the discussion on tie Corn-laws, but, the principle of protection
having been confirmed by both Houses of Parliament, he must
say that this tax seemed to be, not for the purpose of benefiting
the people, but merely of protecting those laws passed for pro-
tection. The corn introduced last year, if a fixed duty had ex-
isted, would have produced 500,0001. in addition to what it
had produced. He then came to the question of sugar, and if
ever there appeared to be created by Providence
an article made to be subservient to the wants of
the pe,ple, that was sugar. It being an article pro-
duceel abroad justified a small duty on its introduction: This
article demanded the care of the Legislature, and that care was
given not absolutely to deprive the poor man of this article,
but to extremely narrow .his consumption of it.—( Cheers.)
Noble Lords could hardly believe the suffering of the poor
cottager from this deprivation. He had had personal oppor-
tunity of witnessing this. The consumption had been reduced
by this sort of legislation to less I er head than a convict's al-
lowance. In 3r'ine cases it had been reduced to one-fourth
the amount of a convict's allowance. It had been found that
a cottager had at first taken sugar from one member of his
family after the other, until it was found that he only pur-
chased at last enough to sweeten the food of a sick child.—
' ( Hear, hear.) Water did not rush to its level sooner than did a
disposition arise to purchase sugar in large districts upon a sud-
den reduction i f price. Thousands of tons of sugar were kept
out of the country by this species of legislation. He could
name many articles, the consumption of which had rapidly in-
creased upon a reduction of duty. One of these articles was
coffee. It appeared from the statement of Mr. 11Iartineau that
the moment the price fell to below 60s. the demand was un-
limited. An immense demand suddenly sprung up. He was
not one who thought that there should be a complete equaliza-
tion of the duty between the colonial produce and foreign produce,
but nothing could be more pernicious than a system of enor-
mous diffei ential ditties. It was proved by the Chancellor of
the Exchequer last year that a reduction in the duty on sugar
would produce to the revenue an income of 500,000/. There
was one argument with respect to those duties which he was
glad to find his Noble Friend had not made use of. It was an
argument continually made use of in the other House, that
however desirable it might be that the people should have cheap
Lugar, still it could not be given to them while a state of
slavery existed. He thought it did honour to his Noble Friend.
But there were persons who recommended the people to starve,
and the country to go without revenue, in the hope—resting
on a weak foundation, a foundation their pi oceedings were
calculated to take away—in the hope of the slaves being eman-
cipated in various States of South America. There was a sort
of conscience which flitted over the Budget of the Chancellor
of the Exchequer so well trained, that it knew when to appear
and when to disappear—when to show tself, and when to with-
draw itself.—( Laughter.) He supposed they would not re-
fine any more sugar for them. Oh no. They had refiners at
home, and it was necessary that their interests should be pro •
tested ; they did not mind refining a little sugar ; it was only
when sugar came into the home consumption that they began
to be discontented.—(Hear.) When he stated that he thought
these were rather shallow pretences than solid arguments to
induce foreign Governments to adopt a different policy from
their present, he trusted they would not think that he was less
impressed than any of their Lordships, with the horrors and
abominations of slavery, and with the positive necessity for the
abolition of so cruel and disgraoeful a practice. But it was the
threats that he objected to. It must be by the moral example
which they set to other nations, and by proofs of the efficacy of
free labour, which they could afford, that they could ever hope
to induce foreign nations to abolish the slave trade. He did,
however, protest against any attempt to interfere with the in-
ternal arrangements of other countries, knowing, as he did,
that such attempts were attended only with failure, and were
calculated to induce resentment on the part cf the country in-
terfered with. It had lately come to light that a most barbarous
and cruel system of labour had existed for some time _in
the mining districts, with which their Lordships had hitherto
been unacquainted. Why, what would their Lordships think if
the French Ambassador here should suddenly rise up and say
that that country would no longer continue its commercial ar-
rangements with us unless we consented never more to employ
females or children in such a manner in cur mines? Why,
whatever might be the feeling of their Lordships upon the im-
propriety of that kind of labour, they would most unquestionably
think that such an interference was must presumptuous and
uncalled for on the part of any other country.— ( Ilear, hear.)
They should not, then, threaten other countrie3 to abandon
their commercial treaties with them ; but they should set themsuch an example of the efficacy of free labour as would convince
them of the benefit which' would arise to themselves by adopting
that course in preference to slave labour.—( Hear, hear.) He
he had stated sufficient reasons to show that no time
.a
srhegoaurlddiugbe
sugar Ile
effectinginueshuuld briefly advert to the ar-
ticle timber. His Honeurble Friend 'calculated last
a change in the laws
year that the reduction of the price of Norway timber would rdd
something like 600,0001. to the revenue ; it was known that
the price of Norway
timber regulated the price of other timber,
b
and if ss. were taken off Norway timber, foreign timber of a
quality could be purchased much cheaper than at pre •
sent, and the consumption, in consequence, would considerably
increase. He must say that, having considered the measures
proposed by the Government last yeast,. he firmly believed that
people than
they would produce a revenue of something like 1,700,0001., and
if a deficit to that amount could be made up by these measures,
why should they have recourse to anag
rieneoe:bemloee Income-tax
hwe
posed tax was always much more
such a tax as an Income-tax
hicAh sethief-tiarflx--
by a self-imposed tax, he meant
one by which it rested with the people, whether they would pay
it or not, by using or rejecting the articles on which the duty
sum, calculated
a
upon the earnings of the individual, without the slightest
gwaaishiemreprocs eat
di n a
to p
tphoes i
doorstion to
gnad tax
demanded_
con-
sent of the party taxed. He had not brought forward this the present re-
solution with a view of opposing Government—
( Hear, hear)—but he believed that other measures might be
adopted which would at once be more beneficial to agieculture
and manufactures; aid, believing h
t at, firmly as he did, he
thought that he bad done nothing more.th an his duty in pro-
posing the amendment which bad beenlaid upon the table of
the House. —( Loud cheers.)
On the question being put,
Lord COLCHESTER rose to make a few remarks relative
to the article of sugar. The Noble Marquis, with his usual
re of the es, )1
eloquence, had described the desi P e to be able to
oar which, he e t
obtain an increased quantity of sa„ on the
could not obtain unless the duty on foreign sugar were lowered.
Ile (Lord Colchester) would beg to call the attention of the
House to a Committee of that House which was appointed two
years ago, open a petition from the East India Company, for
the purl ose of inquiry into the capabilities of. India for produ-
cing sugar. A great deal of evidence Ws. taken before that
:Committee, from which it appmed that a sufficient quantity of

sugar could be obtained from those Islands to supply the whole
of this country at the price which the Noble Marquis men-
tioned as a desirable one, sixty shillings ;.and if that were
the case, he could see no reason for reducing the duty
upon forcgn sugar. The late inadequacy of the supply in
those islands had not arisen from the change from slave to free
labour, but f, om the uncommon droughts which prevailed. Ile
rr.ust dissent from the proposition of the Noble Marquis, be-
cause he thought that the revenue upon which the Noble Mar-
quis calculated would not be realized by his proposition, whilst
our colonies would be considerably damaged if it were allowed

to pass.
Lord BROUGHAM thought that the business would be ex-
pedited if he rose early to express the opinions which he still
entertained upon this subject. He agreed with the Noble
Marquis in all his remat ks upon the inequality of the Income-
tsx, upon its too faithfully performing its office of extracting
money from the pockets of the community, but unjustly, un-
equally, and oppressively ; and he agreed with the Noble Mar-
quis, above all, in the feelings to which he so eloquently gave
vent upon the inquisitorial, necessarily inquisitorial, nature of
such an impost. There was one quality of the tax, however,
which the Noble Marquis omitted to consider, and which he
owned, more than all the rest, gave him a repugnance to it,
and that was its powerful nature for all purposes. Not that,
like the elephant, its proboscis was was equal to picking up a
needle, but that it was equal to tearing up a tree or destroying
a rock. That was a weapon he would not put into the hands
of any Government, as it was a resource carefully to be con-
fined to times of exigency. As an ordinary source of
revenue, it was one that ought never to be entrusted to
ail Government. His consent they never should have to
raise by a stroke of the pen, any sum of money that
the patience of the people would bear. They had had
a sample of the consequences of introducing the Income-tax in
1616. In March ot that year they destroyed the Income-tax,
and as it was in 1816 so it would be now. He entertained the
same objection he had always felt to this tax ; but when :he
question was between the discredit of the country, between a
continuing deficit, }ear after year, in the revenue—when that
ficit went on increasing from year to year, the Parliament
was called upon, and positively bound, if it would not desert its
duty to its country, to put an end to a state of things which had
gone on from bad to worse. The question being how to meet a
deficit—a growing deficit. which was, according to one calcula-
tion, upwards of 3,000,000/. and another, 2,soo,oool—such
being the deficit to be met, the only question was whether his
Noble Friend's plan or tine Income-tax was best to be adopted,
it being admitted that the Income-tax would be 'the worst, if
the other was possible. They had had from his Noble Friend
a restatement of the plan of last year, with a slight alteration in
the sugar duties. Now he could not help thinking, if his
Noble Friends behind him had always entertained the same
hostility to the Income-tax they did at the present moment,
they wwuld have adopted a different course of dealing with re-
spect to it. When the Government brought it forward, they
would have resisted it ; they would not have allowed one single
instant to elapse from the moment the proposition was made,
before they announced their hostility. liras such, however, the
course taken by his Noble Friends ? Did they oppose it when
it was first brought forward? Certainly not. It was intro-
duced on Friday, 11th of March, and a whole week was allowed
to elapse before they could make up their minds to oppose it.
When it was brought forward, a Noble Friend of his avowed
that, as a whole, all parties must clearly admit it was a great
plan, and worthy of the Ministers of a great country. That
was all the resistance, opposition, and protest that was made
against the plan. On Monday, the 14th, an opportunity was
given to his Noble Friend of recalling the admission he had
'bade on Friday, but that opportunity was not embraced, and
even on Thursday, when the debate was brought forward, his
Nehle Friends had not made up their minds upon the subject of
the Income-tax. Even after a meeting had taken place in the
ssity, complaining of the injustice of the tax on terminable an-
nuities, they did not make up their minds; and it was not till
.he next week it was deteimined to oppose the mea-
sure in the House of Commons ; and has Noble Friend
now opposed it candidly, certainly, but faintly.
Again, this was to be taken into account, that when grain s-
€l, as the ports would be open, and the Bs. duty would be ob-
tained. But in that very year there would be a deficit of Ex-
eife, which would have to be set off against all the gain from
the fixed duty ; so that upon the balance it would give actually-
no revenue at all. Last of all came the objection which was
the most important and weighty—that it was a tax upon food,
a bread-tax, which Parliament had no right whatever to levy.
—(Hear.) Still he preferred any fixed duty to a sliding scale—
as much superior to the present slidings tale as the latter was
to the former one. The Government of last year (according
to the declaration of a Noble Friend of his, not made in that
House, nor in the other, but elsewhere) brought forward the
proposition of the Bs. duty neither as a measure of finance, nor
as a measure of relief, but because they were urged by the
importunities of their friends and goaded by the taunts of their
adversaries. Coming next to the sugar duties, the same per
eentage of differential duty was maintained. But he felt it his
duty to protest against the doctrines laid down on this subject
by his Noble Friend behind him (the Marquis of Lansdowne).
If his Noble Friend would favour him with his attention, he
would endeavour to show him that the reduction of the duty
would not be compatible with a desire to discourage the slave-
trade. It was not to protect the planters be desired, but to
protect the Africans in Africa against the slave-trade. What
was the ease ? Our own colonies produced too little sugar.
What were the means—the easy means, by which his Noble
Friend proposed to raise a revenue? By taking off 4s. from
the duty upon the foreign production, so much revenue, I
amounting to 750,000/. yielded by the colonial sugar, must be
abandoned ; and to gain the 800,0001. of revenue wanted, and
expected to be derived from this tax, 1,500,0001. must be
raised upon sugar from Cuba and Brazil. This proposed sub-
stitute for the Income-tax—this positive and certain means of
supplying the deficit in the revenue—must be raised by import-
ing Ii)0,000 hogsheads of Cuba or Brazilian sugar. It was
mighty wed to talk of all the good that would be done to the
population of our own country—of their comforts, their in-
creased trade and wealth. But what did it mean but that
some 20,000 or 40,000 unhappy Africans should be torn from
their homes, carried through all the horrors of the m'cltile
passage, to raise, in the West Indies, the sugar which was to
give that duty?—( Hear, hear.) He agreed with his No-
ble Friend that sugar was no 4 the only article of
slave-labour production. But the tria things passing by the
same name, were as different as two things similarly named
could be. There was no possible cpmparison, except in the
name, between the employment of slive,labour in cotton and in
sugar plantations. The slave trade kas not to be regarded as
an institution of Brazil or Cuba—it was an institution of no
country. Tie Legislature of this ceuntry, of all others,
owed it no respect.—(Hear, hear.) But the whole propo-
sition of his Noble Friend went directly to encourage, to foster,
and, if possible, to perpetuate it.—( Hear, hear.) He held it
to be plainly demonstrated that the instant they lowered their
duties en the sugars of Spanish colonies and- the Brazilian
empire, 40,000 or 50,000 negroes would be taken from Africa
to the horrors of the Vest Indies. This view of the case re.
conciled him in some degree to the Income-tax. He woel4
now, however, state seine of the objections which he enter-
tained to this measure. Knowing the impossibility of making
any material alterations in the Bill as it stood, he would not
urge his of at any great length. lie would first suggest
to the House that the course which common fairness towards
that House would have seemed to dictate was to divide the
Bill into two parts. If their Lordships would give their careful
attention to the details of the BM, they would Fee that there
were defects in it which the warmest friend of the measure must
desire to see remedied ; but there were some facts relating to
the levying of the tax itself, which he was perfectly certain
must be altered as soon as their errors were made manifest.
He now referred to that part of the Bill which related to the
appointment of the Commissioners. The way in which
this was arranged appeared to him to be altogether
unintelligible. The Land-tax Commissioners were to meet
and to set down in writing the names of such Com-
missioners as should be appointed under the Act. Then came
a provision " that any seven, or any seven of the whole num-
ber, and not less than seven, or any less number than seven,
riot being in any case not less than three of the persons so set
down, and in the order in which they shall be, or set down in
such list, shall be Commissioners for the general purposes of this
Act." Now observe, if the Act required him to take upon him
the execution of this Act, he was liable to process to compel
the execution ; but how was he to know whether he was to
take upon himself the execution of the Act? How was he to
be indicted and by whom? He could not tell, nor could any one
else, whether he was one of the seven. Then it was provided
that in ease there should be a sufficient number of Com-
missioners chosen or appointed for general purposes, and so on,
and it was not said by whom they were to be chosen. Now,
with respect to courts of justice it was provided by the 30th
clause that the Lord High Chancellor, the Chief Justice, and
the principal officer or officers of each Court, should respec-
tively have authority to appoint Commissioners. There was
nothing to show what was meant by the term ":principal officers."
By the 191st clause which was the quorum clause, " only two
Commissioners" were enabled to execute every power of the
Act. Now, observe the consequence. If he put in a claim for
exemption, two Commissioners might refuse to grant it, but
he might go to the other two, and those two might sign a
certificate which was binding upon the Commissioners for
special purposes. Therefore ary two Commissioners might
give him the exemption, and the special Commissioners had
no option, any
.more than the Receiver-General. By the 44th
clause persons in the situation of trustees, agents, guardians of
infants, and committees of lunatics, were entitled to deduct
from the incomes of those parties coming into their hands
whatever sums they had been assessed with. But then came
the 61st and the 165th clause, by which if a person should not
have been so assessed as to enable him to deduct, he was to

be entitled to be repaid the money which he had advanced.
Vut there was no provision to prevent the party from applying
the money repaid to his own use. The 166th section was very
remarkable. It was there provided, that whoever should be
guilty of any fiaud, or whoever should fraudulently conceal or
—not " and"—or untruly declare any income—not falsely or
merely, but untruly, in optima fide—should be fined 20/., and
treble the duty charged. That referred to the principal. What
was to be the line inflicted upon an accessory ? They would
naturally say less. But no—the principal being fined 20/. and •
treble the duty, the accessory was to be fined no less than 501.
The parties appointed under this Act had most important func-
tions
to perform, they were judicial functions, and quasi judi-
cial funct ons. He could not help thinking, that it would have
been better to have divided the Bill into two parts, one relating
to the portion of the Bill to which he had alluded, and the
other to the money part of the Bill. They might then have
made alterations mist uselul to the measure, and creditable to
the Legislature. The same observations seemed to him to
apply to the only ether matter which he should call their Lord-
ships' attention to—viz., that part of the Bill relating to the
examination of witnesses. There was the schedule F contain-
irg five forms of oaths, to be taken by various functionaries and
officers employed; new, there had been unquestionably great
improvements made in Bills which had passed through their
Lordships' House ; that of reducing the number of oaths as far
as possible, and substituting declarations for oaths alone,
could be effectually and useftelv done. Ile had no mania rof
ch.uld that one of the best changes they could have made in
this 13111, would have been to have subotituted declarations in
the place of oaths. So, also, with respect to the exa-
mination of persons under the 124th section. He had no manner
of doubt, if the suggestion he had formerly made of di-
viding the Bill had been acted on, that their Lordships
would readily have leant to the proposition of altering those
provisions to which he had alluded. He particularly alluded
to section 125. It was lawful to the Commissioners to exa-
mine any persons whom they thought likely to be able to give
evidence re-pecting the asses-ments made on any other person
—neighbours, friends, relatives, all but with one exception,
viz., agents. Persons confidentially entrusted might be called
up n and examined with respect to the income, and
circumstances, and the expenditure the whole mode
if living. The Commissioners might examine any per-
son but the agent. It might be said that a person might
escape from this examination by payment of 20/. But many-
persons could not afford to pay that, and he was sorry to say
that there would be persons ever ready to give evidenc, to the
Commissioners. But solicitors might. be examined as to the
amount they had paid to counsel. Correspondents could be
examined as to all that passed between them and their met-.
chants. Consignees of merchants in the same way. Trades-
-1
men as to the affairs of their customers, when they paid their
last account, a d what was the amount, and what money was
due. There could, therefore, be no confidential trust between
tl.e customer and the tradesman. Bankers cculd be called to
give evidence will respect to their customers, and what the ba-
lance was in their hands. Father could be brought against the
son, and the son against the father; brother against the sis'er,
&c. Having said so much, he thought their Lordships, from
the necessity of the case, must accept the measure. Ile need
not attempt to prevail on their Lordships to do that which
would be hopeless—even if he did not feel the necessity of that
measare—to reject the measure, except he did so again to re-
' . mind them of the consequences of that rule being so erro.