The Sun.
London, England, 1842-04-20 00:00:00

last century almost exhausted. Thirty new statute. had been
passed with a view of remedying the evil, but without effectually
removing it. The last was that proposed by his Noble Friend,
Lord Hatherton, and though he was amongst the supporters of
that measure he was not of the number of those who were
sanguine of its success. In prosperous times the lehabourer
was master over his employer, and little difference then ex-
isted between them; but in times which were less prosperous
there would always be a strong temptation to the employer to
reduce the wages of his work-people. To dismiss his workmen
was the last thing which he would resort to, and he was driven
to these evasions of the law, in order to retain him in his em-
ployment, There, indeed, the workmen was no longer the
master of his employer, but was dependent upon him ; and he
was given to understand, unless he consented to a change,
either for rent or for goods, ho would no longer be employed.
He was perfectly aware of what had been stated by the Hon.
Member for Salford, that there were exemptions made under
Lyttelton's Act. One of his (Sir J. Graham's) great objec-
tions to the proposed Committee was, that he thought it would
tend to aggravate the hostile feelings which existed between
the manufacturing and agricultural population of the country.
What he would recommend was,that a motion should be proposed
to this effect, that a Select Committee be appointed to inquire
into the operation of the law which prohibits the payment of
wages in goods instead of the current coin of the realm, and
in direct violation of the existing enactment. (The Right
Hon. Baronet here became scarcely audible). He did not
question the advantages that would arise from the institution
of the most rigid inquiry. The Hon. Member for Salford ex-
pressed a wish that. the Committee should be fairly constituted.
lie (Sir J. Graham) for one could not for a moment wish the
appointment of the Committee to be conceived in am other
spirit. He would merely recommend what he had proposed to
the consideration of the House. Probably any Hon. Gentle-
man could suggest a defect in the proposition, and if so, be
should be happy to listen to it. He believed, there was an
amendment before the House, but he thought It eat uld be
regular to submit his proposition as an amendment to the
motion of his Honourable Friend. He thereforelmoied that a
Select. Committee be appointed to inquire into the °pet-atom of
the law, which prohibits the payment of wages in goods
otherwise than the current coin of the realm, an indirect vio-
lation of the existing enactment.
Mr. FERRAND wished to ask the Right Honourable Ba-
ronet whether his motion would extend to inquiring into the
existing frauds.
Sir J. GRAHAM'S answer was inaudible in the gallery.
Mr. S. WORTLEY said the Right Baronet had partly an-
ticipated what he had to say, as be had intended to havesug-
gested a somewhat similar course to that of the Right Hon.
Baronet. What he (Mr. S. Wortley) had intended to have
proposed was, that a Committee should be appointed to exa-
mine the Ist and 2d Will. IV., to ascertain how far it was
practicable more effectually to protect the labouring population.
He thought, as the subject had before been inquired into, that
it was a fit subject for inquiry, on the part. of the House, at
the present moment. He thought his lion. Friend, who
had brought the subject under the notice of the House that
night, could nut deny that the remedy he (Mr. S. Wortley)
had proposed, was calculated to meet the evils com-
plained of. But, still, lie was not so sanguine as
his Honourable Friend. He thought that his Honourable
Friend had assumed rather more against the manufacturer
than he was warranted in doing. To many of the frauds com-
plained of by the Hon. Member, he (Mr. S. Wortley) could
not see how it could be applied. In the case of watchmakers,
if they made defective watches no one could compel thorn to
make them better. Therefore he could not help thinking that
there was much difficulty in the motion of the Hon. Member,
and he therefore thought the course ho (Mr. S. Wortley) had
adopted was the best.
Mr. MUNTZ said that it was a very extraordinary thing,
that after great charges had been made against the manufac-
turers of the country for three months, that they should end in
an abortion at last. He said an abortion, for he confessod that
no legislative enactments could possibly prevent the truck sys-
tem. He felt that it was impracticable, and if the House
would allow him, he would explain how it was impracticable.
It was not at all necessary for the party who committed this
crime, as it was called, and in some instances might be called
so—it was not at all necessary that that party should support a
shop in the neighboarhood of the manufactory. It was not
even necessary fur him to name the party in the shop; all that
he had to do was in some way, directly or indirectly, to have
this person recommended, and those parties who did not buy
at the shop very soon found that there was no more work for
them. Therefore the motion was as complete an abortion as
;mulct be conceived. He did hope that. the Right Hon. Baronet
would extend his motion, and give the Hon. Member for
Knaresborough every scope to prove all his charges. He
(Mr. Muntz) had never taken any part in that dispute, for he
frequently thought the subject unworthy of the time of the
House. He was connected with a large manufacturing dis-
trict, and he did not hesitate to toll the Hon. Gentleman
that lie had been grossly made use of. The Hoe. Gentleman
sought inquiry into the truck system. Ha (Mr. Alunta4 had
been connected with one of the largest manutacturing districts,
and he only knew of one instance in which that system had
been practised, and it was practised in so easy a manner that
benefit seemed in that instance to be the result. It was the
great distress in the country that made the truck system
prevalent. Make the working classes independent of the
master, and he defied any man to truck. It could not be
done if the work-people were independent, and could go from
one master to another.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") There
was a cause for all this ; and they were looking
at the effect, and not the cause. It they appointed
this Committee it would be utterly useless in the end, and no
benefit would be derived from it; as be had said before, they
could not prevent the truck system. Now, with respect to
the inquiry into the frauds carried on, he (Mr. Muntz) had
been extensively connected with the export trade, and he must
say that the complaint ought not to have been made against
the manufacturers, but against the price of the articles. He
had known penknives made of cast iron. The parties towboat
they were sold knew that they were made of cast iron, and
when he told the house that these knives were sold at a penny
each he did not think that any one mould expect to see finely
polished steel at that price.—( Laughter.) He had bought
thousands of grow of scissors at 3s. 6d. a gross, and he did
not think any one could expect finely polished scissors at that
price? These articles were made to suit certain markets, and
it was absolutely necessary to make them. What was the use
of their taking good scissors into a country where they could
not sell them ? If lion. Gentlemen had had as mash expe-
rience in selling and manufacturing these articles as he had
they would know he was speaking the truth. He hoped the
Right Hon. Baronet would allow the Hon. Member for
Knaresborough an opportunity of proving his charges.
Mr. PLUMPTRE had been in many cotton raanufae-
toi ies, anal he believed it was the usual practice to thicken cer-
tain cotton goods with flour. With respect to the other goods
alluded to by the Hon. Member for Knaresborough, such as
watches of a very inferior description, and cloths made of
dust, he believed that although such inferior articles were mantes
factured, they were sold at extremely low prices, and therefore
there could be no complaint on that subject.
Mr. R. YORKE considered the proper form of the resolu-
tion was that proposed by the Hon. Member for Knaree-
borough, and he should therefore support it.
Mr. M. PHILIPS said he came not to palliate or defend
any sort of fraud committed by the manufacturers ; but he
dial think that discussions like the one which had taken place
that night would Cause great injury to the trade of the coun-
try, and if an inquiry were enteredinto before a Committee
of the House of Commons it would attract the eyes of fo-
reigners, leading them to believe that, the subjects to be in-
quired into arose from the general condition of the manufac-
turers of this country.
.It was upon this ground that
he deprecated any inquiry, such as that sought by
the Honourable Member for Knaresborough. With re-
ference to the truck system, he should wish to say a few
words. He was not aware whether or not it was practised
in his district, but the only circumstances with which he had
either advocated or been concerned with respect to the truck
system was, when parties were residing ir. isolated districts, but
when population grew up, and large towns arose, he thought
then the trade should be open and free. lie did not stand
there to justify the truck system, far from it; but to express his
regret that the laws which had been passed to put that
system down had not been carried out.—( Hoar, hear.)
Ile thought if the Honourable Member for Knaresborough was
prepared to carry out his motion with respect to fraud on ma-
nufactures, it ought not to be of so limited a nature as he had
proposed, because there could be no doubt that in manufac-
tories there were many other articles in which fraud could ba
practised. He thought that many of the observations of the
Hon. Member, with respect to foreign trade, were misplaced,
especially those relative to the Brazils. He stated that our
exports to that country were decreasing; now he (Mr. P.)
could not accede to that. There had been an enormeusslave-
trade carried on between the Brazils and Africa, and he be-
lieved that many of the articles manufactured in this country
and sent to the Brazils, were sent there for the purpose of the
traffic in human blood. He had been in the Brazilian trade
himself, and he was happy to say that the firm which he joined
had never sullied its character, honour, or Christian feeling, by
supplying articles to the Brazils that were for the Africantrade.
With respect ,tp flour, he would ask the Hon. Member for
Knaresborough whether it was possible to make cotton of cer-
tain fabrics without flour ? He believed that there was hardly
an instance of such a thing. It was true that at one time a
large weaving establishment had been driven by the high, price
of flour to the use of sago.—( Hear.) The Hon. Gentleman
then referred to the evidence of Mr. Win. Graham, from which
it appeared that flour to the amount of some millions was annu.
ally used in the thickening of cotton. He thought that the
Right Hon. Baronet opposite had adopted a most discreet
course, but he did not think legislative enactments would put
down frauds of the description adverted to by the lion. Member
for Knaresborough. In conclusion be begged to say, that he
cordially concurred with the propriety of the investigation pro-
posed by the Right Hon. Baronet.
Mr. COBDEN did not rise to disturb the harmony of the
debate, but he thought it was his duty to call the attention of
Hon. Members on that side of the House to the state of the
present question. The subject had been mooted by the Hon.
Member for Knaresborough, on he belie Vet the fifth night of
the debate on the Corn-law question. The Hon. Member had
on that occasion made peehaps one of the strangest speeches
that had ever been heard in that House. He was cheered
loudly by Hon. Members opposite, and by the Bight Hon.
Baronet, the Member for Dorchester. The lion. Member for
Knaresborough had repeated his charges again that night, but
he had taken a wider ranee. He now said that his charges
were levelled against the whole mining interest of Lanarkshire.
Mr. FERRAND—No.

Air. COBDEN had taken down the Hon. Member's words,
and he had referred to Glasgow and Ireland.
Mr. FERRAND—No, no.
Mr. COBDEN must repeat again that he had taken down
the words, and he must distinctly state that they were made
use of. Now he (Mr. Cobden) would state, that the iron-
masters of Ireland and Lancashire were net members of the
Corn-law League. The lion. Member for Knaresborough had
even gone further, and taken in the ironmasters of Stafford-
shire. It appeared, therefore, that a great change had come
over the lion. Member. He no longer TIOW made it a party
question, or an attack upon the manufacturers in a certain dis-
trict, but be took in the whole miners and ironmasters, and
roundly asserted that they were connected with the truck
the tame
B a stepet
Baronet
on
system.—( Hear, hear). The Right Honourable Baronet,
the Member for Dorche,ter, had fairly laid open the
question. But why did he
before? Why should he allow the charge to he levelled
? i:henoßt take r
ight
1-en ou
achleaeinr:td aandpasrmtiicluedlawr Ipieanrttyhe Hon. Member for'Kuareshoreugh
was charging one political party, but when there was no longer
oceacion for that, when the charge was made general, he
adopted a very different course. Now what was the fact ?
Why when the lion. Member for Knaresborough made his
first attack, upwards of 10,000 copies of his speech were
printed in the manufacturing districts of England. He
(Mr. C.) cenfessed that he did not attach much importance to
the lion. Member for Knaresborough's statements, because he
had made them upon such insufficient evidence, but he looked
certainly with surprise at the rapturous applause the
speech of the Honourable Member for Knaresborough had
met with from the other side of the House, and particu-
larly from the Right Honourable Baronet opposite. The whole
of the ironmasters and the mining interest were now mixed up
in this question,
Alr. FERRAND—No.
Mr. COBDEN—I presume I am to understand the manu-
factures are included.
Mr. FERRAND—Yes.
Mr. COBDEN presumed that the inquiry would embrace
all parties.
Mr. FERRAND replied in the affirmative.
Mr. COBDEN did not think, as some Hon. Members had
stated, thatthe inquiry would injure the manufactures in foreign
countries. He did not think that it would affect the trade of
this country with them, because he thought it was absurd to