The Sun.
London, England, 1842-05-28 00:00:00

ever anything happened to seamen they would not come
home, preferring rather to desQrt than to come home and
find themselves in difficulties. Ashort time ago we L•ad

322 ships employed in the whale fisheries, andihe Ame-
ricans had only 60 ; the. Americans now had 634 ships
and 17,000 men ; whilst we had only 3,000 men. The
length of time usually employed in voyages to the Senth
Seas was three years or three years and a half ; would
not this part of the tariff, then, be most unjust to those
who had gone out under certain expectations within the
last three years ? He thought no one would doubt but
that the retrospective effect of this proposition would be
most unjust towards those who were engaged in the
whale fishery. _ _

Mr. GLADSTONE said although he trusted the
Committee would refuse their assent to the motion of his
Hon. Friend, still he had as much respect for the prin-
ciple of commercial policy laid down by the Hon. Gen-
tleman as he had himself. This was a motion for time,
which he did not think her Majesty's Government would
be justified in agreeing to. Taking a series of years, the
British merchant would find as much remuneration
under the tariff as he had hitherto. The trade was
starving itself by the operation of exclusive low duties.
The high price of sperm oil had led to the adoption of
substitutes for it, and to that he attributed the depression
of the trade. It was right that the Committee should

take notice of the state of the trade up to 1841. He
trusted theTmeasures of the Government would have the
effect of reviving the trade. In 1831 the number of
ships engaged in the South Sea trade was 111, and the
price of sperm oil was 67/. per tun. In 1835 there were
94 ships, the price being 711. a ton. In 1837 there were
71 ships, the price 831. In 1839 there were 63 ships, the
price 951. a tun. In 1840 there were only 44 ships, though
the price had risen to 1441. ; in 1841 the number of
ships had diminished to 32 inwards, and the price to 901.
a ton. He asked whether this state of things did not
call for something to be done ?—(lfear, hear.)
Sir C. NAPIER said he presumed that the ships for
the South Sea trade, which had sailed in 1840, would not
arrive till 1843 ; those which sailed in 1841 would not
arrive till 1844 ; and those which sailed in 1842 would

not arrive till 1845. All these ships had already sailed.
—(Hear, hear.) He was sorry to say that there was a
continued decrease. in the attention paid to the encourage-
ment of their seamen. He thought it was but just and
fair that the motion of the Hon. Gentleman should be
attended to. He considered that the trade should be en-
couraged, because it would be a means of providing
sailors for the navy when necessity required it. France
and. America were now employing great numbers of
vessels in this fishery. He therefore thought that en
couragement should be given to the English fishermen.
Mr. A. CHAPMAN was understood to support the
motion.
Mr. HAWES agreed with all the general views laid
down by the Right Hon. Gentleman, but he did not
think those general views could be rightly called into
aid on the present occasion. The only westion was,
whether there were any special grounds for the amend-
ment of the Hon. Member for the city of London.
The American ship-owner was at present able to com-
pete successfully, almost fatally, with the British ship-
owner in the fishing trade. He thought with. regard to
this trade, the protection, if removed, should be re-
moved gradually.
Sir R. PEEL said, he wished to say a few words in
reference to what had fallen from the Gallant Commo-
dore, with respect to the decline of the commercial
marine of this country. If he referred to the paper
which had been printed on the commercial marine of
their country, he would see that there was no ground
for apprehension. That paper gave a satisfactory ac-
count of the British marine, as compared with the foreign.
It was a statement of the shipping employed in the
trade of the United Kingdom, exhibiting the num-
ber of vessels which had: cleared outward and
inward in 1841 and 1842, together with the number of
the crews. The number of British ships entered in-
wards in 1840 was 17,800, and in 1841, 18,525 ; the
tonnage in 1840 was 3,197,000 tons ; and in 1841,
3,361,000 tons ; the number of seamen in 1840 was
172,000, and in 1841, 178,000. Now the 'number of
foreign vessels entered inwards in 1840 was 10,198 ; and
in 1841 only 9,527 ; the tonnage, which in 1840 was
1,460,000 tons, in 1841 fell to 1,292,000 tons ; and the
number of seamen fell from 81,000 to 73,000. He
thought this statement was sufficient to prove that no
fears need be entertained of the commercial marine of
this country. Mr. Huskisson reduced the duty on
spermaceti oil, and the result of that was that in the
three following years the price was 541., 551., and 701.,
a tun ; so that the reduction in duty did not produce a
reduction in price. When the duty was highest, the
price of the oil was not higher than 551. For the last
four years the price had been upwards of 1001. a tun,
and yet the number of ships had decreased, and the rea-
son was that they gave a premium on the
introduction of vegetable oils.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
He was much afraid that no interference on their part
would have the effect of encouraging the trade to the
degree that it was injured by the prevalence of discourag-
ing causes, if the vested interests were to be allowed the

required time. With respect to every other interest he
was afraid that they must all be necessarily expozed to
unexpected competition, and the only question was,
whether they would be justified in making this an ex-
ception to the general rule. Other interests were equally
entitled to an extension of time. These various conside-
rations ought to be maturely weighed, and on the whole
he was of opinion that it would be better that the reduc-
tion should take place at once, and he trusted that the
House would assent to the immediate reduction of the
duty.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL did not differ from the Right
Hon. Gentleman as to the principle ; they were agreed
that a high protective duty was bad. It appeared that,
under a high protective duty consumption had dimi-
nished, and he thought that a considerable reduction
ought to take place in the duty on the foreign article.
The Right Hon. Gentleman had said that the British
whale fishery had nothing to fear from the competition
of the Americans ; he did not altogether agree with the
Right Honourable Gentleman in that opinion,
but he was of opinion that it was for the in-
terest of the country that the Americans should
come here and sell them oil whenever it should rise to
a high price in this country. The question was, when
ought this reduction to take place. It should be recol-
lected that three years were commonly employed in these
voyages, and that great expenses were incurred in fitting
out these ships. A gentleman, with whom he had con-
versed on the subject, had informed him that the ex-
penses of provisioning a ship which had been recently
sent out, had been very great That ship went out in
1841 and would not return till 1844. He, therefore, did
not see why the duty was not to come into operation at
that time. He agreed generally in the argument•of the
Hon. Gentleman, but he thought he carried it to excess.
- Dr. BOWRING said that the. French fisheries had

been alluded to; but the fact was, that the inordinate
protection given by the French Government to their
fisheries had altogether failed in its object, and the Ame-
ricans were able to beat them out of their own markets.
Sir H. DOUGLAS thought the duty proposed by the
tariff on dried and fresh fish would not be a sufficient protec-
tion to the fisherman.
Mr. CHAS. BULLER entirely dissented from the idea of
bolstering up the fishery trade by protecting duties.
Captain FITZROY washed to know whether they were
going at once to set aside the whole fisheries, and thereby de-
stroy the best nursery this country ever had for its seamen ?
Steam, he believed, would never be anything more than an
auxiliary to our naval force, however actively steam vessels
might assist other vessels. Having been long familiar with
the interests of seamen, he could not but look upon this mea-
sure with the greatest pain. Only two months since, a ship-
owner of Newcastle had an offer to charter ships to the Havanna
et 16s. per ton. It was impossible, however, that it could be
done at present under 20s. •He longed to see the navigat;ou
laws of this country altered so as to meet the circumstances of
the times, and when proper alterations had been made, he had
no doubt the British shipowner would he able to compete with
the shipowners of any other part of the world.—( Hear, hear.)
After a few words from Sir C. NAPIER and Mr. DIVETT,
Sir R. PEEL said he hoped the House would bear in mind
the statement of the Hon. and Gallant Officer behind him, that
the American trade was increasing ; that British seamen were
entering into American vessels; and that those who were en-
gaged in the spermaceti trade were about to abandon it.—
(Hear, hear.) it should also be remembered that in the year
1841, 1001. a tun had been charged for spermaceti oil, and that
at the same time that the consumer was subject to a rise of
60 or 73 per cent., the merchant was being ruined.—( Hear. )
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the House
divided, when there appeared,—

Ayes
Noes

108

Majority in favour of the Government
proposition
Schedule 6 was then agreed to.
Mr. GLADSTONE said, that with regard to some of the
articles in schedule 7, which imposed duties upon dye ;tuffs,
drugs, and resins, the duties were continued at a high rate,
because negotiations were going on at present on the subject of
reducing them, and therefore those duties were to be considered
as merely temporarily imposed. The Right Hon. Gentlemen
particularly mentioned isinglass, as one of the articles in
question.

Dr. BOWRING suggested all gums should be reduced to
one category, and admitted at Is. duty.
Mr. GLADSTONE said there was a difference of opinion on
that point, but that the subject was under the consideration of
the Government.

Schedule 7 was then proposed, and the Chairman then pro-
posed to read the articles seriatim.

The schedule was agreed to without amendments.
Schedule 8, consisting of skins and furs, was next proposed,
and the articles were read seriatim, and was agreed to.
Schedule 9, consisting of hides, was also agreed to without
change.
On schedule 10, consisting if timber and wood, not being
deals, battens, loads, staves, handspikes, bars, lathwood,
or other timber or wood, sawed, split, or otherwise dressed,
except hewed, and not being timber or wood otherwise charged
with duty, being proposed,
Alr. HAWES said he thought the proposed mode of taking
the measurement would be of the greatest inconvenience to the
trade, and he should be glad to learn from the Right Hon.
Gentleman opposite, to whom he gave every credit for the at-
tendon and time which he must have expended in framing this
tariff, what it was that induced him to charge the
duty on the load instead of on these lid foot, which would be
much more convenient, and less expensive to the trade.
Mr. A. CHAPMAN said, although Hon. Gentlemen
thought that the proposition of the Government with respect
to timber was a great boon to the shipowners, yet the ship-
owners themselves repudiated that boon. They denied this,
fur they knew that it would be the means of transferring the
trade from British North America to the Baltic. He knew
that any motion that he could make on the subject would be •of
no effect, considering the feeling of the country; but he
would venture to suggest to the Government that the time for
the imposition of the second duty might be expunged from the
tariff. He intreated the Right Hon. Gentleman to pause upon
the question. This he thought would be satisfactory to the
shipowners of the country.

Mr. GLADSTONE wished to say, before they went fur-
ther, a few words in answer to the Hon. Member for Lambeth.
The Hon. Gentleman said they ought to stand on strong
ground for the abandonment of the present system of taking
the duty. In the year 1826, a Committee on the subject
made a report, and they came to a resolution that the present
mode of taking the duty was susceptible of improvement. Now
he thought that the Hon. Gentleman had exaggerated the die-
6culty to be anticipated. He (Mr. Gladstone) did not say
there would be no difficulties, but he thought the Hon. Gentle-
man had exaggerated those difficulties. The Hon. Gentleman took

the case of cut woods; but the Hon. Gentleman must respell).*
ber that they were impel ted in equal dimensions, and therefl,re
no difficulty would attend the proposed system. The °Pini
of men who had passed their lives in this trade,
whom the uo-
vernment had consulted, were favourable to the proposition.
They had obtained the opinion of the Customs, and th Y
lieved that this system was one which could, without inia to
any one, be carried into effect. The Board of Customs 11
consulted those upon whom they were in the habit of relying:
and they also were of the same opinion ; and this had one't
raged the Government to antici, ate no opposition from the
Committee. He was convinced, upon the whole, that they
were changing a bad system. of measurement for a god °,76
and he could assure the Committee that they had arrived
this conclusion upon the most mature consideration
Sir WALTER JAMES could assure the Government
in the opinion of most practical men, the proposition 9t bK
Majesty's Goverment would prove a most injurious one ttil
io
interests concerned. He thought this was a subject
merited the re-consideration of the Government, for it 1011.,.
subject of the deepest interest to the country. With respieete
the borough which he represented he thought the pia" w„. sot
Majesty's Government would be almost impraCticable,
wholly so. This, he understood, was also the opinion of
Deacon Hume.

Mr. BARING approved of the cubic measurement of tsar
ber, but yet thought that it was attended with some incer''
venience.

Mr. MITCHELL hoped the Government would not regp•
.
the question that night, as there was so little time for disen,
ing it; for the effect of the proposed auty would be to tb
the whole of the monopoly in the trade in deals into the 110'.
of Norway and Sweden.
Sir R. PEEL said that the only question was as to the
.
mode of measurement. Government had no objection wha',
ever t) facilitating as much as possible the commercial traroi,,,
lions of this country, and at the same time preventing fratva
Their communications with the Custom-house officers, bad,
led them to apprehend any difficulty on this paint. The P';;
Gentleman who spoke last, said that they were going to
increased facilities to Norway and Sweden. Why, the ID
effectually they could do that, the better for all parties. etc
Mr. HUME said that builders refrained from giving
ployment at present, until the low rate of duties s r ' oc' ber
into operation in October, when they would purchase tits
at a much cheaper rate than
should commence . He would suggest,
fore, that the low rate of duties imme(ll27o
Mr. H. HINDE said that his constituents would prefer, t
the propsed duty should not commence till next year. 1,64
Lord SANDOI\ observed that the timber trade only "-
for Oae change, and that was the reduction of the duty to Os
Mr. Alderman HUMPHERY wished to know if
,a:er
3i deals would be subject .to the same admeasurement as °—
timber ?

104
Sir H. DOUGLAS gave notice, that when the sub;„ti
came again under discussion, he would move that the "-
should remain at 30s. as a protection.
Sir ROBERT PEEL would also give notice that he oePrit
to adhere to his proposition, that the duty be 30s. for the ;he
year, and 255. for the second. To any proposal to
tnak°oo
duty of 30s. permanent, he would give Ms most siren'
opposition.
tho
Sir W. JAMES said, it was most desirable' to haceol,i
question settled, and he thought the best settlement of it
be to fix the duty at 30s.
After a few words fro,

)m ~r. HARES,
tioar
Mr. C. BULLER said that it was now ten o'cloCk, the
.0
fixed for his motion, and he presumed the present disno..
would be adjourned to allow of his proceeding with his steel°
After a few words from Lord SANDON,
Sir R. PEEL said that the Hon. Gentleman (Mr.llo--
eet,'
was determined not to lose much time. He hoped, boceoto
when they next discussed the subject of timber, that or
would be taken upon it.—( Cheers.) He was himself in fapas
of the present proposition, but he did not wish to prevent ILt4
Members who were acquainted with the subject, from Oa
their observations upon it.--(Cheers.) In reply to an Hoe. Mitstsxa'
Mr. GLADSTONE said that he would on a future 00121
state how it was proposed to apply those duties to the Isle 0.
ate
The Chairman then reported p rogress and obtained le
to sit again on Monday.
•
PAROCHIAL CONSTABLES BILL.
In answer to a question from Mr. PA KIN G TON. ie
qir J. GRAHAM said he did not think there was iiol
bability of the Bill being brought forward this evening.
BRIDPORT ELECTION. ite
Mr. C. BULLER said that he did not•. intend to 0ce,40
much of the time of the House on the present,occasion. It
with great reluctance he brought forward any matter ince tos
considerations of a personal nature, be' ause the present ee
would give rise to a great deal of personal cantroversY.,.. to
should confess that feelings of a personal nature induced t or
bring the motion forward—his regard for, the pot".' 00
election would not induce him to do so. were it,aol,
for the unfair and hard position in which an ind,1,14
0
for whom he'had the greatest regard, was placed,--V•, t
The conduct of that individual had been made the some`, 9s
comment by a Right Hon. Gentleman, one of her Alorof
Minister, on a public occasion in Dorchester.
nothing from the Bight Hon. Baronet but perfect good hu'd
yet he thought it was not fair that a person who had nrlf
zealous advocate for Parliamentary Reform should be o'ol'
held up as a person who had violated the law of Parliannee,
purity. But as a friend of Mr. Warburton he confessed
not in consequence of anything which had been said out 000,
House, that he brought forward his motion, but in ',cue'
quence of the proceedings which had occurred in. the I',lfor•
When his Hon. Friend the Member for Bath carried bP boe'
tion for an inquiry into certain corrupt practices alleged 1°
t.'
taken place with regard to five or six boroughs, an Hen-11,"
able Member asked whether Bridport was to be included-lo'
felt that the person alluded to in that question was .Mr-
.tbe
burton. He therefore challenged inquiryi- cad he hope] tbe
House would see that it was bound in consistency to *stet' de)
inquiry to Bridport. He had on a late occasion endealiti
to satisfy the House of the propriety of that inquiry,
...,2"ttier
the Committee appointed to investigate the cases, of 0.111
ham, Reading, Falmouth, Harwich, and Lewes, aboll
be directed to extend their inquiry to .Bridport.
House would recollect, that on the motion
a5.0,,,1e
Honourable and Learned Member for Hath„`.7t
mittee was appointed en vague and uncertain,
ceainDicso,
his opinion, sufficient and satisfactory rum
"r:
ofspect to th(01:.
boroughs; but the case was much stronger promises alleged to have taken place
port, for here an individual, who was once a Member
of ere/ House, and who would not be deemed the less worthy
ins
for what he might state because he was .no longer so,
I positive allegations of a comproinise having taken place low
hwithergarcitoaßrtiwe'
he was himself concerned, and he called upon the House tto,e
quire into the case. He asserts that corrupt practices
veiled in the borough—that one of the Hon. Members
into the borough in 1839 and made a declaration of his-de",
urination to carry the borough by systematic brilserY'w
(Laughter.) Perhaps he (Mr. Buller) was going 'll)°itino
in saying that.--( Cries of "Go on, go on.") The Pe' 001
• •
er
stated that from certain correspondence the petition
c belie.ue
that persons in Mr. Mitchell's interest carried nu the efe
stie,
by the force of money, and he prayed for inquiry upon the
! ject. He went on to assert that the election was Or
_Ollll
' bribery, and that it had come within his own knowlee!c
nine votes were offered to be given to the petitioner en,-`A. io
Mitchell by an agent, and that the same agent was order's'
! nine other cases, to give money for votes in favour of• Mr. s', r
chell. He states that 3,2001. had been expended-brbirt,
chell, which he believed to be a moderate caleelatiOD O'
sum expended. That tie believed a one-third' larger aro. )1
was expended,and that Mr. Cochrane expended stuns uus
to the petitioner, to discover the amount, of which was one T,t oi1
objects of the petitioner. He (Mr. B.) believed that was a 9tr"
case for inquiry than the one made by the Hon. Menibeci
~
Bath. In the case of Bridport, the Hon. Member had „, e
cepted the Chiltern Hundreds, so that there were s., f
circumstances in the case to invite the attention of the so
But not only had parties made compromises regarding,a
election, but also compromises of judicial proceedings lia"1 011
place. He understood that in the month of February., d
no fewer than 51 actions for bribery were brought by the 7;ei/
of Mr.. Mitchell, to whose betrayal the whole of 40
, proceedings were owing. Mr: Blight, the agent, btrosi
those fifty-ere actions, the penalties on which am° 1
to 25,500/ But there was further evidence of bribery 1"1)°,
case, for the Western Times had a paragraph accusisll',
parties of bribery, for which Mr. Blight brought an act° 'se'
libel, and the defendant justified the accusation of briber! ')fir
gave the names of 74 persons who were bribed for lUr jto
chell. Thus, in the present instance, there was not
trifling with the dignity of the House in order to cone* is
proceedings at Bridport, but there had been a
.e,
compromise of judicial proceedings, lest those practit ,001;
bribery should be dragged before the tribunals of the fl ld
The difference between this case and the others was s
this, that in the present case they had better evidence',"
had not to trust to hearsay, they had the petition before 'of
stating the facts, and they had ample means of proving the 10101
sactions stated in that petition. In the other cases, the 1 10
had been called upon to interfere to prevent a comp/eau/o'o4e,
the present case a compromise had taken place and been ea
into effect. The compromise had been completed, she in' trgi
had been suppressed, and the seat bad been transferred I' icl;
Gentleman sitting opposite.— ( Heat, hear.) The first e` ic
tion made to the present motion was that it would giv,,el,
much trouble to the Committee that was appointed to in I,
into the subj,:et. He was happy to say he had spoken of ed
matter to his friend the Member for Bath, and lie had n°,..tee'
jection to the present case being considered by that Colunir.fA
—( Hear, hear.) Another objection he had heard state,' rte
that this case differed from the others, because it had not occa
in the present Session. The compromise had taken plee°';
it was immaterial whether it was effected in' the l'er•t
the present session ; it was a compromise growing out 4,00
same class of elections, and occurred in the same toes, air'
June. He could not conceive any ground upon which ag•J gA
( tinction should be made between the present and the other Out
• eases. Any person who wished to expose bribery coo'',
raise any argument against the inquiry in the preseet.oo
There were some observations, it was but fair to the °le!,
Members to make—his motion implied no inquiry int° /10
personal conduct, but he should be acting unfairly if 11.8.0,0
not avow, that such a charge was made against theirPel'ilet
conduct as they were ready to meet, and it was a charge
would he most unfavourable to them 'if they did not 0 0110
in rebutting it. The charge against the Hon., Gentlett
to his left was, that he had come in for Brid
as a second candidate in the same political interest at,;sYl
Warburton ; that Mr. 'Warburton's election had beet)
carried by so large a majority that he had never found:: Oil
cessary to resort to bribery.—(Cries of Oh, oh, 0,10;
" Hear, hear.") It was delightful to hear that cheer, 1)1
eit
he was sure it never emanated from a Member who &e a,
been guilty of paying head money, or spending a farthtl beet
treating. With respect to Mr. Warburton, he had neve_ vet°,
compelled to pay money to individuals to induce them "ea 0::
for him, but the Hon. Gentleman below him was aee°'„re.°l;
having recourse to that—(Hear, hear)—and the disel-0
that was owing to his quarrelling with his agents.--t 00,
of " Hear, hear.") The statement made again!'s 0
other Honourable Member was one less diffic"' tli
allege than to prove in precise terms. The statement 01;0,4
.;;
there was an understanding between him and Mr. Waro e d
on taking his seat, which was rot fulfilled on his part..T.L.'o, s
new stating merely what was in the petition. ( The /1` at /,
Learned Member then read several parts of the petite° I a
also extracts from letters written by Mr. Cochran', ).,„ el
made these statement's and read these extracts withoy‘t
feeling against the Hon. Member. He only as is'ae_,
a r•i,
him in possession of the charges against him.—(l/-eir ti 1 110,
In conclusion, lie would say that it seemed to hut, alat
l;ortant additional ground for the interference of the
r, • Ay
that in these compromises the character of its Memb.ecid .0
involved, and charges against their personal character 1-0 rf ,Pta
tally rose up. He begged, in conclusion, to move-liege
au inquiry be made into certain corrupt compromises?. ye,t!
have been entered into for the purpose of avoiding 1 /.€.O
tiou into gross bribery which had beer, allege to ha:in .17is
practised at the election for the borough of Bridrr'p in last ; and, also, whether such bribery has taken ',lac- ft
aforesaid town."
en%i°
Mr. COCHRANE rase with more than ordinary wet)),
because, lie was about to occupy the House upon a :su,eif ;Iv
no public importance, but one that was personal to h'ln-itl24,c
trusted, therefore, that the House would listen to Idni,hat
dulgence, while he endeavoured to answer the chargiseke'ot biro
been made against him. The Hon. Member for L instll.o.to
fairly stated that there was no direct charge maA'le ags.e-reel
(Mr. Cochrane), but the inference was that he had emt., 014
a compromise pr arrangement with Mr. Warburton,
ovi'o9l9o
he (Mr. Cochrane) had obtained his seat. Now, lie nl .0 fto
really what did take place. The inference to be d,ra'cis.gooe„,o
the first paragraph in the petition was that be had
ti
Mr. Warburton ; that he had given him this itif°olr —On
the 24th of August, two days prior to the first date e"