The Sun.
London, England, 1827-02-13 00:00:00

SUPPLY.

Sir GEORGE CLERK moved that the House
should resolve itself into a committee to consider of the supply to
be granted to his Majesty for the present year, and that the navy
estimates be referred to the same committee.

Mr. HUAIE, before the Speaker left the chair
wished, seeing the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer
in his place, to ask him whether this was not a proper occasion
for the Right Hon. Gentleman to state what was his intention
with respect to the expenditure of the year. He, (Mr. Hu►ne)
thought, that before the House was called upon to vote on this
subject, they ought not only to know what was proposed as the
amount of expenditure, but also the income of the past year, that
they might judge of the scale on which the estimates should be
formed. He wished to know whether the Portuguese expedition
had added to the amount of the estimates. He wished it to he
understood that that there was no part of the country's establish-
ments in which he wished less to see any reduction than in the
navy ; but he wished also that one general accurate view of the
proposed expenditure should be laid upon the table before the
House was called upon to vote at all. He took this opportunity
also of asking particularly, whether the Navy estimates for the
present year were to be on exactly the same scale as those for the
last, or whether they were to be increased?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
said, that any answer which he could make to the inquiries of
the Hon. Member must of necessity be unsatisfactory, unless ac-
companied with a full discussion of all the points involved in it.
As he was not prepared to enter upon those at this moment, he
could only pursue that course which he had adopted in antecedent
years. He must also be permitted to remark, that he thought at
the present moment the state of the navy was an object of so great
importance, that no obstacle ought to be placed in the way of the
vote. At no distant period he should undoubtedly be in a situa-
tion to make the fullest statement on this subject, and he trusted
the House would not think that it was from any unwillingness
on his part to meet the discussion that he now declined to let it
interfere with the present vote, but because he thought that no-
thing should stop the current course of so important a branch of
the national strength as the Navy. _ _

Colonel DAVIES shortly after the meeting of
Parliament, had given notice of a motion to refer all the estimates
to a Committee above stairs.

Sir JOSEPH YORKE apprehended that His
Majesty's Ministers were acquainted with the state of the revenue,
and that therefore they would not propose any estimates which
the resources of the nation would not enable them to meet.

Mr. MABERLY thought his Hon. Friend, the
member for Montrose, had done no more than his duty in the
suggestion he had just made. At present no man could know
what was the state of the revenue but from the accounts which
had appeared in the public newspapers.
Mr. HUME replied. He knew that he could
not now prevent the Speaker's leaving the chair, but he should
take the earliest opportunity that might present itself of ascertain-
ing the sense of the house on this subject. _ _

Mr. CALCRAFT thought' there was a great deal
in Mr. Hume's objection, but considering the state of the country,
he could not consent that any obstacle should be put in the way
of the vote for the navy estimates. Every body knew how much
depended on the navy, and that when the country was involved
iu war, notwithstanding the reliance which we placed on the
army, it was the navy that must fight us through. The praises
which had been so jestly bestowed on his late Royal Highness the
Duke of York, reminded him that the system of regularity
and fairness of promotion in the army which had been put in
practice by him, was one of the most honourable parts of his
character. He wished to recommend to the persons who had the
direction of the interests of the navy, the adoption of a similar
system.
Sir GEORGE COCKBURN would detain the
House only one moment on the subject of the promotion of officers
in the navy. It was true, as the Honourable Member for Ware-
ham had stated, that much of what appeared to be a hardship,
was, in fact, owing to a different system prevailing from that
' which was adopted in the army respecting commissions. To
alter this was not so easy as it might seem to be, but he could
assure the Honourable Gentleman and the House, that much had
been, and that as much more as was possible would be, done in
this respect.
The House then went into the Committee, Sir Alexander
Grant in the chair.
Sir GEORGE CLERK, in explaining the sub-
ject of the present vote to, the House, should confine himself to
the differences between it and that of last year There was a dif-
ference of 10,0001. in the total amount. The number of seamen
was exactly the same as it was last year, and no reduction could
be expected when it was considered, that long ago as great a re-
duction had been made as was compatible with the public service.
The cessation of hostilities in the West Indies, and the more settled
state of the Governments in South America, would have justified
the Government in reducing the numbers, but that other events
which had happened reeently rendered the necessity for keeping
up the naval force just as great as ever. In every other place the
same reasons as before existed for maintaining the naval establish-
ment. The state of Greece required as great or a greater force in
the Levant as before, and if any objection could be urged against
the estimates as respected this part of the establishment, it would
be that the force was too small rather than too large. The wages
were precisely the same, but a considerable diminution had taken
place in the victualling charges. The Board had been enabled to
effect this diminution by sending out provisions, instead of buying
them through the bands of agents, and thus procured better as
well as cheaper provisions; but some increase bad beenconsequently
occasioned in the transport service. The diminution of the half-pay
charges had amounted to 15,000/., but that for widows' pen-
sions had increased considerably. In the other departments
there had been no change, and consequently no diminution.—
The charge for new works was 36,000/. ; and respecting this,
it was necessary for him to explain that some of them had not
been contemplated when the vote of last year was proposed.
The finishing, repairing, and enlarging the Woolwich dock-yard,
and the Woolwich basin, which had also been much repaired and
enlarged, had been the principal items in this charge. A sum of
8,0001. had been expended in the erection of Pour-mills at Dept-

ford. This had been done in consequence of some serious born-
plaints having been made against the contractors for the bad
quality of au article which was of the greatest comfort to seamen.
In the course of the last year they had been enabled to obtain an
excellent article, and the greatest benefit had been experienced by
this improved manufactory of flour, for which reasons he trusted
the expence of erecting the mills would not be objected to. The
Marine Infirmary and Hospital at Chatham had cost 7,0001., and
although this building seemed larger than was necessary, it must
be remembered that it enabled the hoard to do away with the
hospital ship, and reduce the medical staff to 4,0001., by which a
saving of 1,000/. was effected. The transport-service cost
20,000/. In the last year they had been found to be inefficient,
and an enlargement of the establishment had therefore been found
necessary. The Hon. Baronet then concluded by moving a vote
of 1,579,500/. for the charges of wages and victuals for 30,000
men, including 9,000 royal marines, to serve in his Majesty's fleet
for the year 1827.

Mr. HUME said, that it was really time to confine
this vote within reasonable limits. It was given as a reason that
no reduction bad taken place in the number of men this year, that
our expedition to Portugal had interfered to preVent such reduc-
tion. But if we were to right the wrongs of other countries at
the expense of this, the number of men which the Committee
were now called upon to vote, would in a very short time be in-
sufficient for the purpose. The House ought to pause a little,
and consider whether an expense of 6,000,0001. per annum was
not too much to pay to support Portugal and preserve the faith of
treaties. If this country had not a redundant military force, our
Ministers would never have ventured to take the rash step which
they lately thought proper to adopt. A superabundant army
tended always to encourage a nation to go to war. Where was
the necessity either for our keeping up an undiminished navy,
when it was notorious that if the fleets of all the world were
arrayed against mg, 500 sail could net be produced to compete with
our naval strength ?

Mr. IVIAi3ERLEY having voted with Ministers
for a large supply of troops for the serice of Portugal, could not
with consistency vote against the supply which was now proposed.
He thought that the present was no time to talk of reductions
either in the army or navy, and he felt the necessity of upholding
those establishments the more, when he reflected on the angry
threats which America had thought proper to promulgate in the
late speech of her President.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir J. YORKE said, that the Hon. Member for
Aberdeen and himself were friendly to the same measures, and
only differed in their means of adopting them. The Honourable
Member wanted to cut down our naval establishment, but he could
not agree with him in thinking that by husbanding our resources
now, we could employ them to a better puilsose when occasion re-
acquired. On the contrary, he was firmly of opinion, that our
best means of giving any country that might oppose us a black
eve, was to show our capability to inflict it.—(A laugh.)—He
called upon the House to look at what America was in 1783,
and what she is in 1827, and then the question would natu-
rally occur whether it were wise or safe to reduce a single
frigate—whether it were politic to cut off a single little finger
from the body of the state.—(Hear, hear.)—What would Mem-
bers say if the Right Hon. the Secretary for Foreign Affairs
had come down to the house and said, " Upon my soul, gen-
tlemen, every thing has gone wrong with us, we have neither
ships nor soldiers to go to war."--(Laughter.)—lnstead of
which, every measure of the Right Hon, Gentleman had been
crowned with remarkable success, a Jesuit which was mainly to
be attributed to the means which we possessed of assuming a
hostile position. He remembered the speech of the Hon. Gentle-
man (Mr. Hume) when it was proposed to assist Portugal. With
part of that speech he could not help agreeing ; but when the
Hon. Member spoke about the danger of going to war, the Right
Hon. the Secretary for Foreign Affairs used an unanswerable ar-
gument—" Here's a treaty, is it to be kept or broken ?" and
what was the result? Had not the Right Hon. Gentleman, in
consequence of the step which we adopted with regard to Portu-
gal, the power of saying to the Ministers of France—" Well,
Gentlemen, if you evacuate Spain, I have no hesitation in saying
we will evacuate Portugal." He (Sir J. Yorke) hoped he would
not be considered partial when he said, that one of the Right
Hon. Secretary's best assistants in the Cabinet was his Rt. Hon.
relative the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whose loss would be
generally felt, should the motions of the Hon. Member for Aber-
deen be the means of getting him out of that House.—(Laughter.)
—lndeed, it would hardly be credited how much deference was
paid to the opinions of the Hon. Member by his Right Hon. re-
lative; for if he (Sir J. Yorke) were to go to him for the pur-
pose of forwarding a job, the answer which his Right Hon. rela-
t;ve would make would be, "My good Sir, it is quite out of the
question; why, what would Hume and the economists say?"—
(Laughter. )

Mr. HUME would he sorry that the idea should
be entertained that he wished to cripple the resources of the coun-
try, at the same time he could not but observe, in reply to an
observation of the Gallant Admiral, that the readiness to give a
black eye often led to mischief. When a man had a sword at his
command, it was natural for him to get into a quarrel : whereas,
if he were without the means, of doing mischief,_ it was more than
probable that no quarrel would ensue. With respect to the Ame-
rican President's Message, he saw no'likelihood of a quarrel arising
in consequence of that document, and he thought that this coun-
try would he highly censurable if any misunderstanding with
America arose out of the question to which the Message referred.
The vote was then proposed and carried.
On the motion for a vote of 955,5001. for the wages of 30,000
men, at 2/. 9s. per man a-month,
Mr. HUME referred to the alarm which was raised
on the river, when the expedition to Portugal was ordered. He
took occasion to deprecate the system of impressment as one which
gave rise to considerable abuse, and he suggested that some mode
st upl
cbtei
caed
poptedr su
etdo
inrem theednya
vtyh
of
evil.ffl
og g
nHg e also
men without
com m commented tce don
Court-
martial, u
rt_
martial, and he animadverted on other practices of the service
which he described as being equally culpable.
Sir GEORGE COCKBURN said, that it was
the earnest desire of the Board of Admiralty to act upon every
suggestion which they conceived would tend to the benefit of the
service over which they presided. If a measure were proposed to
increase the pay of the men employed in the navy, it would cer-
tainly meet with due and proper attention, but he cautioned the
House not to propose any measure that could not be carried into
.
full and complete effect. With respect to the system of inpress-
ment, it was one which this country could not with safety give up,
although he was willing to admit that it might be modified.
Sir J. YORKE thought it was the duty of the
house to search and probe the system of navy impressment.
Slr GEORGE COCKBURN complained that
the gallant Admiral had misconceived his meaning. He begged
to be understood that he rather courted than shunned the ques-
t tion of naval impressments.

Mr. SYKES said, that it was unworthy of those
who at present administered the naval affairs to countenance the
system of impressment. He stated that one of the greatest hard-
ships to which sailors were subject was the length of time they
were kept on ship-board, without being allowed to go on shore.
But how much harder was the lot of those poor fellows :who,
after returning from a long and dreary cruise, expecting to
share for a time the comforts of that home from which they so
long had been estranged, were seized by a press-gang the moment
of their landing, and consigned to serve for a period of six or
seven years, as had been the case in more than one instance that
had come to his (Mr. Sykes's) knowledge.

Sir GEORGE CLERK observed, that in time of
peace it was perfectly unnecessary to resort to impressment, but
when any great national emergency arose, when decision and
celerity were required, there was no other means to man vessels
than by adopting the system of impressment.
Sir EDWARD OWEN conceived that it was
wrong to attach odium to a practice which might not only be use-
ful hut absolutely necessary. Much had been said on the subject
of impressment, but the country should take care how it let go
one rope of its safety before it caught at another. He admitted
that, during the last war, men were kept abroad on board ships
much longer than could be desired. From the length of the war
that could not have been well avoided, but it was not likely to
occur again. As to the liberty given to the men to go on shore,
it was, in come climates, a very pernicious practice, particularly
attended with the loss of one-third of the men to whom such per-
in the West Indies, where permission to go on shore was generally
mission was granted. With respect to the charge of wanton
cruelty, he would only, as a Member of the navy, express a
hope, that when such charges were made, particular instances
would be brought forward instead of general imputations affect.
ing the whole service.
Mr. HUME could have given many instances, and
bad done so when the subject was last before the House. One
case he would state—that of a ship, with a crew of 112 men, in
which SG were flogged within 12 months, and the officer who
commanded was removed in consequence.
An Hon. Member (whose name we did not hear)
observed that the discussions in that House hai been productive
of ghat amelioration in the mode of treating seamen. With re-
spect to the system of impressment, he thought it was a disgrace to
a country professing to have a free constitution. It was one which

he thought deserved the most serious investigation, in order to
find some safe mode of dispensing with it.
The motion was now put and carried.
The next resolution was that a sum not exceeding 624,000/.
be grated for victualling the Navy.
Mr. HUME wished for some explanation as to the
extent to which Government intended to carry on the manufacture
of articles to be supplied for the use of the navy. He believed it
would be found that those articles could be had much cheaper (if
competition were allowed) than they could he manufactured by
Government. He perceived that there were mills for grinding
corn at Portsmouth and Plymouth, and others intended elsewhere.
He wished to know how far the system was to be extended ?
Sir G. CLERK observed, that if the article manu-
factured proved to be of a better quality than that which could be
obtained by contract, a slight difference in the price ought to be
no object ; but the fact was, that at the mills at Portsmouth and
Plymouth, the flour was produced cheaper and better than it could
be obtained by contract. The adulteration of flour intended for
the use of the navy had been caried to so great an extent, that it
became necessary that Government should take the grinding of it
into their own hands. In the last year, not less than 6,000 bags
of flour were found to be adulterated, either by a mixture of fo-.
reign ingredients, or by using wheat of an inferior quality ; and as
it was impossible that the examining officers could inspect every sack,
it was fair to suppose that many others had escaped detection.—
The Government, to prevent such fraud in future, determined to
gried their own corn, and in addition to the mills at Portsmouth
and Plymouth, they were to have an extensive one at Deptford,
which would thus afford the means of grinding all the flour and
biscuit-meal required for the navy.
Mr. HUME asked whether any of the contractors
sending such flour could not be prosecuted ?
Sir GEORGE CLERK replied that the adulte-
rated flour was returned to them, and if they supplied a quantity
of good flour sufficient to fulfil their contract, he did not think
they could be prosecuted.
Mr. HUME thought that if their names were pub-
lished to the world it would have the effect of preventing others
from practising similar frauds.
Sir J. YORKE wished to know why part of the
salary of the Astronomer Royal was in the Navy Estimates, and
part in the Civil List. He also wished to know why the two
Medical Commissioners of the Navy Board had 2001. a year more
than their brother Commissioners. Here were the gentlemen of
the pill who got more than those of the multiplication table, who
had many heavy and important calculations to make.
Sir GEORGE CLERK said, that before the
observatory at Greenwich came under the authority of the Admi-
ralty the salary of the Astronomer Royal was paid from the Civil
List, and afterwards (as we understood) some was added in the
Navy Estimates. As to the Medical Commissioners, they had
many important duties to perform. They were obliged to attend
the Admiralty constantly ; besides they had to examine Officers
who applied for pensions. At the Transport Board, where they
were before, they had 1,000/. a year, and, in consequence of this
and their severe duties, it was thought right to add the 2001. a
year to each.
Mr. D. W. HARVEY wished to know on what
data the large estimate for law expences was made. Though there
was a standing counsel at the Admiralty, with, he believed, a sa-
lary of 600/. a year, he found that briefs were given to King's
counsel in many cases, where they had nothing else to do but re-
ceive their fees.
Sir GEORGE CLERK said, the estimates for
this...year were in this respect founded on the same data as in the
other items—namely, the expences of the last year.
Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN wished to have an
answer to the question as to the unnecessary expenditure to King's
couMnser.l.
CROKER said, that not more than three
counsel were retained on each circuit; and it was not the fact,
that in every case briefs were given to King's counsel.
The resolution was then put, and carried.
The next resolution was, that a sum not exceeding 184,107/.
I Is. 7d. be granted for the salaries of officers and clerks in the
Admiralty, Navy Pay, and Victualling-offices.
Mr. HUME thought there were too many on the
several boards, and that the number might be reduced.
After a few words from Sir G. CLERK and Sir B. Meanie,
the motion was put and carried.
The next item was, a sum of 158,728/. 6s. Bd., for the ex-
pences of salaries, &c., of his Majesty's yards at home.
'lbis, after a few words from Mr. WARBERTON and Sir G.
CLERK, which were nut distinctly heard, was agreed to.
The next item was a sum of 560,000/. for wages of artificers
and labourers in his Majesty's yards at home.
Mr. HUME thought that this and the next item,
which was chiefly for timber, and which added to the present,
amounted to 1,600,000/., might be considerably reduced without
injury to the public service.
Sir G. CLERK could assure the Committee that
Government were by no means inattentive to the progress which
other nations were making in the construction of particular kinds
of vessels, and when they saw any such vessels built, care was
taken that we should have similar vessels, to meet them in case
of necessity.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir J. YORKE did not think it necessary that we
should continue to build very large vessels, or that it was neces-
sary in that respect to imitate other nations who were construct-
ing vessels of such a size that it would require a crew of Patago- I
nian chaps of some eight feet and a half high to navigate. It had
often fallen to his lot to differ from his Hon. and Gallant Friend
(Sir George Clerk), but he did so most widely on Ihersubmjectnodf
describe.
the experiment made of cutting down a 74, the Bah
The upper deck was cut •officersn wehrnewobtlni gavi to go
down Tao
•
down to a deck lower, and the men still
lower, and in this state,
making it a kind of vessel wehicnh hehhaerd ly
without her proper
complement of men, she was sent on a broil-
ing hot station, where the thermometer was generally 95 or 96.
He also wished to bein
formed on what principle it was that such
change was made in several of our cutter-brigs, which were
atransformed from exceedingly good vessels with two masts, into
the worst possible kind of vessels that could be mentioned with
three masts. He could not see the reason of this alteration,
I which was about as expensive in its nature, as if the Hon. Se-
cretary to the Admiralty, who had great taste in building, should
attempt to remove the walls of the Union Club-house, in order
to stick them up in some other position.—(Hear, and a laugh.)—
He repeated, he should like to have some explanation why this
expensive process should be resorted to, which obliged the
c o peoplecK t orluextract
itN their
said,
Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer, in order to find the means of supplying
the necessary funds, to dip his fore-finger and thumbtothe
yocke t s of
G. the caBh
Sirthe subject on which
the Gallant Admiral seemed so much at a lose for information was
very easily explained. It was necessary to have a proper class of
frigates to meet those of other nations. It was well known that
one of our frigates was captured in the late war by a frigate of the
enemy, but it was not then generally known that the vessel by
which ours was taken was so much superior in size and force.—
The thing was looked upon as'the capture of one frigate by an-
other, and a general damp was cast on the country for the time.
The ship of which the Gallant Officer had given such a descrip-
tion to the House, was what it pretended to be, a frigate, and one
of the finest frigates in the world. She was one of the smallest
class of 74's cut down. A trial had been made of her, and
though the trial was a short one, it proved, as far as it went,
that the experiment was completely successful. The 74,
thus cut down, was almost nothing as a 74, and it
would have taken an immense expense to put her into proper re-
pair ; but the cost of cutting her down to her present size was
comparatively trifling. The vessels from which she was selected
were not considered worth the expence of repairing, and were
called the " forty thieves." As to the cutter brigs, the gallant
admiral (Sir J. Yorke) bad shown himself as little informed as on
the subject of the frigate. The fact was, that those cutter-brigs;
from the great size of their mainsail, occasioned an immense strain-
ing on the timbers abaft the main mast, so that after a voyage,
many of those timbers were found to be broken. In order to
remedy this inconvenience, it was found necessary to alter them
so as to give them three masts. The Admiralty had instituted
experiments to learn whether the cutter-brigs or the sloops were
the swifter sailing vessels. They pitted each of the brigs into
had put three masts, with one of the brigs in its usual
state,
found that upon all occasions the vessel with
three masts
beat the brig with two. The Harlequin, which
whandichoant nhedey
they
to the West Indies, was, before the change which had
been made in tier, a elow.sailing vessel ; but since that change
she had beaten with ease all the vessels upon that station. He
contended, at some length, that, instead of spoiling these vessels,
they had made them not only better sailers, but also much less
dangerous in action. He allowed that the Admiralty might fail
in the experiments which they had made on these vessels, but he
would not consent to give those experiments up until he was
more convinced than he was at present that those experiments
had failed.
Sir J. YORKE begged to remind his gallant
Friend, that the "forty thieves" were not built under his super-
intendence, as his gallant friend might soon see by .referring to
the requisite records at the Admiralty. The country had already
, had sufficient experience of the effects of cutting down seventy-fours.

He would appeal to an Hon. Friend behind him, whose gallant
father had commanded the Indefatigable. whether that ship was
not in his opinion, a very indifferent vessel. What good, them
could be effected by cutting down such a vessel ? He could not
for his life conceive how a bad ship, as a seventy-four, could be
cut down into a good frigate. If he were wrong in that opinion,.
he called any officer who could either string or vlice two senten—
ces together, to contradict him if he could.

Captain PELLEW was understood to state, that
his father had always represented the Indefatigable to him as a
very good ship.

Mr. CURTEIS could corroborate the opinion
which the gallant Admiral had given as to the excellence of the
Barham frigate, by the testimony of one of her officers, Lieut.
Fortesque. He had heard that officer say that the Barham was
one of the finest frigates in the service--that she was able to carry
32 pounders on her deck with the greatest ease, but that she had
scarcely men enough to fight her, and that the had not room to
carry more. (Hear, from Sir J. Yorke.)

Sir G. COCKBURN said, that there was plenty
of room in the frigate for more men, and the gallant Admiral who
now commanded her had authority to report whether she was at
present manned by her full complement of men.

Captain GORDON bore testimony to the effi-
ciency of the Barham in her present condition, and said that she
was now a match for the finest frigate in the world.
The grant was then agreed to.
The next grant, which was for 926,062/, being the charge
for timber and all other materials for the building, repair, and
fitting of His Majesty's ships, was then agreed to, after a few ob-
servations from Messrs. 'Warburton and Hume.

£40,000 was then agreed for pilotage, salvage, bounty for
slaves, and other contingencies, after an objection had been raised
to it by Mr. Hume, on the ground that it was irregular to intro
duce into the navy estimates an account of the sums paid as head-
money for captured negroes.
The following grants were then agreed to :
£53,137 9s. 11 d. for foreign yards, salaries, wages, and con-
tingencies.

£70,385 Bs. 6d. for the victualling yards.
£59,672 I6s. sd. for medical establishments, safaris*, and
contingencies.

£6,611 7s. 3d. for the Royal Naval College.
£103,813 Is. Id. for wages to officers, shipkeepers, and: wen
belonging to vessels in ordinary.
£52,353 12s. for victuals to the said officers, shipkeepers, &c.
On the grant of £37,250 being proposed for the hired
packets.
Sir J. YORK E wished to be informed how the
taking away these packets from the Post-office worked in practice-

. -
Sir G. COCKBURN said that the new system
worked perfectly well. The voyages were now performed both
in less time and with less danger ; and, besides, Government was.
enabled to have some packets always ready for sea in a case of*
sudden emergency.
Mr. HiIME wished to know what the difference
of expence between the two systems amounted to?

G. OCCKU
considered
asß anllteNre
questionsaid, tohfaptouinfdst,hsehilliungess,tin
were ando
pence,SltrothhGee present system, perhaps, cost a little more. Under the
old system, the commanders of the packets were entitled to certain
nerquisites, from which they were debarred under the new one.
They smuggled and took fees, which they were now prohibited
from doing. They had in consequence demanded higher wages,
and it had been deemed expedient to accede to the terms which
they proposed.
The grant was then acceded to.

On the next grant of 2QOOOI. for ships building at Bombay,

Sir J. YORKE asked how long the expenditure at
Bombay was to continue? Was it right to send the work of the-
navy to be effected abroad, when our own shipwrights were-
starving at home.

Sir C. FORBES contended, that ships could be
built in Bombay at a cheaper rate, and of greater durability, than
they could be in England.
The grant was then agreed to.
On the grant of 881,0001. to defray the half-pay of flag-
officers,

Mr. 1-lUME thought that there was too much pro-
motion in our naval service; that it went on much too rapidly;
and that it was even getting beyond the means of the country to
support.
Sir G. COCKBURN contended, that from the
opinion of the Hon. Member for Wareham, who thought that
promotion went on too slowly, and from that of the Hon. Mem-
ber for Aberdeen, who thought that it went on too quickly in the
navy, it was only fair to presume, that the Admiralty, in steering.
great a steady middle course between the two, was acting with

wisdom.
After a few remarks from Mr. HART DAVIS,
Sir JOHN WROTTESLEY thought that the
system of promotion, which was conducted in the navy upon
principles unknown in every other department of the state, was
liable to great objection.
Mr. HUME skid, as promotion was asserted to be
necessary to keep the navy in order, he supposed it would be equally
necessary for the marine service ; and yet, in one year, he saw
294 promotions in the navy, and only thirteen in the marines.-
From 1816 to 1826 there were only seventy-six promotions in the
whole marine service.

The vote was then agreed to.
On the resolution for granting 122,006/. to defray superannua-
tion allowances to naval officers and their widows,
Mr. HUME asked a question with respect to
the sum paid to Lord Carhampton, whose name appeared in
the list.

Sir G. CLERK and Mr. CROKER explained.
From their statement it appeared that Lord Carhampton was an
old officer, and had been placed on the retired list. In, conse-
quence, he could not again be called into the service, nor could
he receive any promotion. Under these circumstances it was,
that 14s. 6d. a-day, the sum equivalent to his half-pay as
captain, was granted in the nature of a pension. To this he had
a positive right.
Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN observed, that the
saunbystoattihteitalirneteliieefstt,o,tvlaies cboyuantrreyd,ucwiiiotnhouotf
the
jpurroipnegr twheaylatnodgedivoer
various estimates.
The vote, after a few words from Sir J. YoaKE,. Mr. Alderman
WAITHMAN, and Mr. HOME, was agreed to.
The sum of 1,500/. was granted to defray bounties to Naval
Chaplains.
On the vote for 8,000/., to defray the charges for Widows and
Orphans on the compassionate list,
Mr. HUME inquired who were eligible for the
charity ?
Sir G. COCKBURN answered, the widows and
orphans of every naval officer who died without fortune ; and their
cases were so closely sifted as to render evasion impossible.
Vote agreed to.

On the vote of 105,0001., to make good the deficiency in the
charitable fund for the support of the widows and children of war-
rant officers,

Mr. HUME inquired how that deficiency arose ?
Sir G. CLERK answered, that the sum of 90,0001.
voted last year was not sufficient for the purpose intended. This
fund arose out of a variety of contributions ; but as they were not
sufficient to cover the expense, it was found necessary to apply to
the House, and the sum now wanted was 105,000/.
Mr. HUME asked whether there was any limita-
tion to those pensions.
Mr. CROKER answered, that formerly there were
two limitations, but there was no limitation at present. The
limitations had been removed by Parliament, in consequence of
the exertions of the gentlemen opposite.

Mi. HUME thought that the former plan was by
far the more proper. Limitations, as to the persons who should
receive this bounty, ought to be established ; because he under-
stood that some persons receiving these pensions were possessed
of 1,600/. or 2,0001. a year. .He thought, therefore, that a
change ought to be made, and he wished to know how it could
be best effected.

make any alteration, as the existing system
Mr. CROKER said, the Admiralty could not
had the sanction of
Parliament.
Vote agreed to.
The sum of 10,000/. was voted for the pensions of Marine
Officers' Widows.

knoorw
ththeeLtaittael
Omart.h
He motion forMS e expressed
r e s grantingsed
ttoo make good the defi-
xiency of the charge for the out-pensioners of Greenwich Hospital.
and amount of the property belonging to Greenwich Hospital.
Mr. CROKER said, the sum now called for was
estotapbalyishtmheenor-peWnhsieonneevresr, livnhfoormfoartmionedwnaao.peaarilt.ed
for
respecting
the:funds of the hospital, it was always readily given; and he was
happy to say, that the estates of that excellent charity were. ma•

caged as well as those of any private individual. No person could
be an officer of that hospital who was not an old seaman.
The vote was agreed to.
L. The sum of 159,0001. was granted to defray the superannoa-
hiclo of commissioners, secretaries, clerks, &c. who had served in
ans
Majesty's dock-yards.
The awn of 247,9691. was granted for defraying the expence
of new works and repairs in his Majesty's dock-yards, after a few
words from Sir J. YORKE, Sir G. CLERK, and Mr. HUME.
£259,000, for the purchase of provisions for troops anti gar-
risons on foreign stations, and for the convict service, and for the
Value of rations for troops to be embarked on board ships of war
and transports.
£220,000 ware voted for the expences of the transport service.
The House then resumed, and the report was ordered to be
brought up to-morrow.

POSTAGE DUTIES.
The House then resolved itself into a Committee on the Postage
Sties Acts (GreA Britain and Ireland.)
Mr. HERRIES stated, that in the resolutions
which he had to propose to the Committee, and which were in-
tended for the foundation of a Bill, the object was to remove cer-
!iiiit irregularities and inequalities in the Post-office duties affect-
ing the communications between England and Ireland. His
'light Hon. Friend had also consented to remove a regulation
which pressed heavily upon the mercantile community—he
"leant the extra postage on invoices, bills of lading, and
ereantile accounts, which, under the present system, were
%object to additional postage, even when contained in the same
'beet of a single letter. This was founded on au ancient act,
Pcksed in the reign of George 1., but this afforded no reason for
continuing the tax. It was obvious that the rates of duty on
letters in the interior of Ireland ought to be put upon the same
footing as those in England ; they were at present much lower,
to some cases 100 per cent. It was not, however, proposed to
adopt the expedient of a sudden alteration, so as to place them
'exactly on the same footing as in England and Scotland. It was
by the present measure merely intended to raise the Irish postage
only so far as to make it payable in English sterling instead of
Irish currency, which was about eight per cent. below the other.
After the resolutions were read,
Mr. HUME expressed his disappointment at the
present measure. He bad understood that all the Acts of Parlia-
tOent relating to the Post-office were to be consolidated, like the
jury laws and the custom laws. No man could at present
make out what was the law in respect to the Post-office, so
that it fell upon the secretaries to interpret it. A branch of
taxation yielding a revenue of 2,000,0001. required that the
greatest facilities should be afforded to the public who paid it.
There were, however, regulations in the Post-office productive
°f great unfairness. Some persons, by paying a fee, received
their letters earlier than others. In some parts of the town
there was a difference of two or three hours in the delivery. It
would be desirable that a clause should be added to the bill, re-
Vecting letters to the officers of the army and navy. A letter
might at present be directed to an officer at Portsmouth, and if he
°ad quitted, and proceeded to different parts of the world, on ser-
vice, the letter would follow him with accumulated postage. The
Nvoie principle should be adopted with regard to them as to soldiers
and sailors. The Hon. Member then adverted to the want of a
Axed rule in charging letters by distance. He had expected that
in these resolutions there would have been one permitting news-
papers to be sent to the Colonies free of postage.
Mr. HERRIES, in explanation, said that it was
his intention to introduce a clause in the bill on the subject of
newspapers ; but it was not fit to be the subject of a resolution.—
"The clause which it was his intention to introduce would obviate
111 the objections urged on former occasions respecting news-
Papers.
Mr. HUME stated, that his object was, that news-
Papers should go from England to the CHonies upon the same
terms as to Ireland, and for the Colonial newspapers to be received
here at a duty equivalent to that paid on newspapers printed in
4gland. He therefore moved; that it is the opinion of this
Committee; that all newspapers printed in the United Kingdom
should be allowed to be sent postage free to all the British Co-
ino-ies and possessions abroad, on the same terms as from kingdom
to kingdom ; and that Colonial papers should be received in the
%kited Kingorn, subject to the same duty as is paid on papers
Printed in England.
Mr. HERRIES said, that there would be ample
T,PPortunity in the progress of the Bill for the consideration of
this subject, without adopting the resolution now moved, espe-
eiallY as his Right Hon. Friend was not present to reply. He
hoped, therefore, that the Hon. Member (Mr. Hume) would not
Press it.

Mr. WARBURTON said a few words in support
of Mr. Hurne's resolution.
Mr. HUME, in consequence of what had fallen
from the Hon. Member (Mr. W. Horton), would withdraw his
!resolution.
The house resumed, and the report was ordered to be brought
.111) to-morrow.
Mr. HUME postponed his motion respecting the
414titly at Barackpoor till the 22d inst.
ARMY ESTIMATES.
Lord PALMERSTON brought up an estimate
ofthe charges for His Majesty's land forces. Ordered to be
Printed.
Lord PALMERSTON gave notice, that he
" 041 d move for a supply on Monday.
SLAVE TRADE AT THE MAURITIUS.
, Mr. WILMOT HORTON moved for an ad-
-141 to His Majesty for copies of all correspondence respecting
%." slave-trade at the Mauritius, which had not been already laid
utfore the House.—Ordered.
The House then adjourned at a quarter to twelve o'clock.

PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDINGS.

PRICE OF IRISH STOCKS, FEB. 10.
Bank Stock 236.4 St. Patrick Insur. (per share)...
Congo,ls, 3 per cent Royal Irish Ditto —
Gov. Stock, 3}l, per cent. ... fiN% National Ditto lO
Ditto, New Patriotic Ditto —
4 per Cent. 0564 Hibernian Bank —
Gov. Deb. *i per cent SS,,ieti Provincial Ditto
Royal Canal Stock
Grand Canal Stock Imperial Mine —
City Deb. 4 per cent. Mining Co. of Ireland
Ballast Office Deb. 4 per cent. Commercial Buildings —