The Sun.
London, England, 1842-06-25 00:00:00

SYRIA.

Dr. BO",VRING gave notice that he should, on Mon-
day next, ask a question of the Right Hon. Baronet with
respect to Syria.
IRISH MAGISTRACY.

Mr. SHIEL rose for the purpose of putting
a question to the Noble Lord, the Secretary for
Ireland, relative to the re-appointment of Mr. St. George
to the Magistracy of Galway. His Hon. Friend the
Member for Perth had put a similar question to the
Noble Lord a kw nights ago, and the Honourable
Member had now gone to Scotland. The question
was, whether it was, in point of fact, true, as stated
in the public papers, that Mr. St. George had been
restored ? It was stated that lie had some years
ago written a letter containing offensive language,
to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, and ,on an applica-
cation for his restoration, it was intimated that the pro-
ceedings of Mr. St. George were very improper, and
that it would be impossible to restore him, unless
an apology was made for the letter. He believed
no distinct answer was given by the Noble Lord on
that occasion, but it was stated that the papers
had not yet come over from Ireland. His Hon. Friend
had now gone to Scotland, and nothing further had taken
place on the subject. He (Mr. S.) felt himself justified,
therefore, in asking whether an apology had been made,
and whether the Noble Lord had any objection to give
publicity to the apology, in retractation of a public offence.
Lord ELIOT thought The Right Hon. Gentleman
had misunderstood him in the answer he made the other
evening. He then stated that in 1837 Mr. St. George had
had written a letter, couched in disrespectful language,
to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland. He was in consequence
removed, and the Lord Chancellor thought very pro-
perly. Shortly afterwards, the Lord Lieutenant was ap-
plied to, to reinstate him. He refused to do so, un-
less Mr. St. George retracted his letter, or made •
an apology, or wive some explanation of it.
After that the Lord Lieutenant received so many
applications from gentlemen of the county of Galway,
of all political opinions, that the Lord Chancellor did
think himself justified in communicating with Mr. St.
George, with a view of obtaining an apology or ex-
planation. Mr. St. George did give an explanation ;
but as he (Lord Eliot) stated before, he thought
it did not amount to an apology or retractation.
He distinctly stated that before. And he thought the
Lord Chancellor was very much influenced in restoring
Mr. St. George by the wishes so strongly expressed by
the gentlemen of the county. There was no wish
whatever, as had been implied in another place,
to offer any slight to the Marquis of Clanricarde ;
but taking all the circumstances into consideration—
that the Magistrates of Galway were of all political opi-
nions, the Lord Lieutenant did think himself justi-
fied in viewing the case leniently, especially after he
had been suspended for five years. He (Lord Eliot)
did not feel justified in laying before the House any of
the correspondence.—(Hear, hear.) At the same time,
he wished it to be distinctly understood, that no slight
was- intended to the then Lord Chancellor of Ireland or
the Marquis of Clanricarde.
Mr. SHIEL then gave notice that he should move for
the papers.—(Loud cheers.)
POOR-LAW AMENDMENT BILL.

On the Order of the Day for the House going into
Committee on the Poor-law Amendment Bill being read,

Mr. LAWSON rose to move, pursuant to notice, that
it be an instruction to the Committee; that they
have power to divide the Bill into two parts.
He would feel justified in giving to this Bill what would
be called a factious oppos►tion. The Right Hon. Ba-
ronet had stated that he would introduce the measure at
the very earliest period after Easter that public business
would allow ; and a measure of such importance as the
Poor-law certainly ought not to be introduced at the
end of the session. Oa this ground he felt that ho was
fully justified in the course which he was pursuing.

Sir- J. GRAHAM said the Hon. Member seemed to
admit that he had embarked in a factious opposition.
The measure was introduced on the 11th of May, and it
had now been before the House and the public for a
period of six weeks. A very large portion of the mea-
sure was, indeed, introduced in the last session of Par-
liament, and many of the principal clauses underwent a
protracted discussion. The clause to which the Hon.
Gentleman objected was, he believed, that which affected
the Gilbert unions. Now the persona affected by the
Gilbert Union Acts amounted in all to 400,000, whilst
those who are under the operation of the Poor-law Act
amounted to fifteen millions. He put it to the House
whether they would exclude the whole people of Eng-
land from the operation of the Act, for the sake of a
comparatively small portion of the community. Ile
hoped the House would by the division give a decided
negative to the motion.
Captain PECHELL concurred in what had fallen
from the Right Hon. Baronet. However, the Right
Hon. Baronet would find that the Hon. Member for
Knaresborough (Mr. Ferrand) was not the only person
who was determined to offer this Bill the most constant
end zealous opposition, and who would take advantage of
all the forms which the House permitted to obstruct and
protract the discussion of the Bill, in order to compel the
Right Hon. Baronet to separate those parts of the Bill
which had been urged upon his attention Tor that pur-
pose, and in doing which the Right Hon. Baronet would
exercise a sound discretion.
_He would read to the Right
Hon. Baronet a resolution on this subject, which had
been adopted by the people of Brighton, in public meet-
ing assembled. It was to this effect—" That the
members of this borough be earnestly requested to
carry out the recommendation of the Committee to vote
against the Poor-law Amendment Bill on every occasion,
and to oppose by every possible means which Parliament
allows every measure which will have for its object the
continuance of the Poor-law Commissioners in power."
That resolution was passed last night after the intelli-
gence received in the borough relative to the divisions
that had taken place in that House before going
into Committee on the Bill. It would be his justification
for following Up those proceedings, and he should
not be diverted from the course he proposed to himself,
by any insinuations that might be thrown out as to fac-
tious opposition to the Government.
Dr. BOWRING was one of those who certainly did
think that the original organisation of this Commission
would have established a central control which would

have proved of great effeciency and usefulness, not only
for the protection of the rate-payers. but of the poor
and distressed population. No man had been more
strongly impressed than himself with a feeling of the enor-
mous abuses of the old law,and of the necessity ofapplying
something like a remedy to their. He confessed that
he watched with extreme anxiety the working of this
Commission ; he had had a great desire to ascertain how
far it had effected the great objects contemplated by it.
The Right Hon. Baronet was aware that on the last oc-
casion when this measure was discussed, he (Dr. Bow-
ring) had done every thing to put the desired power
into the hands of the Government, and that he
opposed and voted against every motion brought
forward whieh tended to place any impediment in their
way. He agreed with the plan of the Poor-law
Commission as originally concocted. He believed that it
was framed with a philosophical and enlarged
view, and with a real desire to administer to the
wants of the suffering, and to protect the rate-
payers ; he had certainly hoped that the Poor-law Com-
missioners would have given effect to their peremptory
powers in a kind, and generous, and humane
spirit. He had occasion to see the working of the
Bill in the borough he
.had the honour to represent,
and he had brought before that House, not one only, but
many cases of severe distress. He did not impugn
the conduct of the guardians, nor did he bring any
accusation' against the proceedings of the Poor-law
Commissioners, but he bad thought it his duty to bring
under the consideration of the House, a state of things
. .

which was disgraceful to the state of society and
civiliza-
tion of this country. The investigation then granted was
well and kindly meant, but the manner ih which it
had been conducted had given the greatest dissatisfaction.
Neither the guardians, the rate-payers, nor the poor
themselves, were satisfied. The Report which that As-
sistant Commissioner had made had given general dis-
satisfaction. A feeling had spread that the interests
of truth and justice had not been satisfied by
the proceedings of the Poor-law Commissioners.
He -had entertained a hope that the • Poor-law Com-
missioners, knowing that their Assistant-Commissioner
had travelled out of his way to impugn tbo statements
which had been made relative to the dreadful distress
existing in the district—statements which had
since been given in evidence statements to the
truth of which several Honourable Gentlemen opposite
had borne witness—he had hoped that the Poor-law
Commissioners would have put a bridle upon this
gentleman and would have ordered him fairly and
faithfully to state the evidence submitted to him,
so as to further the ends of truth and justice. He would
confess that he had been disappointed in the
Poor-law Commissioners—grievously disappointed.—
(Hear, hear, hear) From the manner in which
the Commissioners had acted in Bolton and its
neighbourhood from the statement of feeling
existing towaris them in that neighbourhood, he
felt b•und to say, that in that locality, he thought
they had acted without discretion or humanity.
He was , desirous of fully debating the question. He
wished to discuss every clause. He was not desirous to
limit the debate, but he could not lend himself to the
forms of the House for the purposes of obstruction.—
(Cheers.) He was willing to discuss every clause, but it
was not fair, nor could it be successful to use the forms
of the House for the purpose of obstructing public business.
He was willing to discuss every clause, and to improve
the measure. So far they should have his assistance ;
but he could not go with them in that species of op-
position which was called factious, which availed
itself of certain forms of debate for an object which
after all must fail, and using an instrument which he
did not think on the whole should be employed on an oc-
casion like that.
•Mr. O'CONNELL said, that having voted against
the Government upon every motion that had hitherto
come forward on that Bill, for-reasons which were ob-
vious, on account of the state of the Poor-law in Ireland,

which point had often been before the House, he wished
to state why he should vote with the Government
on that motion.- He thought it more expedient
that the Bill should be but one Bill, as it. would
then come better before the public. They could modify
or alter it in Committee, and they would have a more
unanimous vote against the third reading.
Mr. FIELDEN expressed his determination to oppose
the Bill in every stage. They were sent to that House
for the purpose of opposing. it, What he wished was,
to dispense with the Commissioners, and to make the
measure what it ought to be.
• Sir 11. W. BARRON would vote against the proposi-
tion of the Hon. Member for Knaresborough, because he
was morally convinced that the Poor Law Bill, when
properly considered, would be found to be one
of the greatest benefits ever conferred by that
House on the people of this country. No measure
ever yet brought forward conferred so much advantage
both on rich and poor. On the poor, because it would
give them independent feelings, and teach them to rely
on their own resources.—(Hear, hear.) On the rich
beeauSe it was impossible that matters could go
on in the same state. they *were for 25 years before
the passing of the New Poor-law Act without a total
confiscation of the property of the country, and.the pass-
ing of an agrarian law. But he was glad Hon. Gentle-
men opposite redeemed the pledges they gave on the
hustings respecting the Poor-law, through the disgrace-
ful agitation of which many of them obtained their
seats. But were the gentlemen on the front bench free
from that agitation ? They did not, it was true, par-
ticipate in it, but they permitted- it by their silence—
(Hear, hcar)—while their friends and supporters
and journals were proclaiming eternal war on
the Whigs who introduced the Poor-law.—
(Hear.) 'They obtained their majority by means
of agitation against the Poor-law, the Corn-law; and the
free trade principles of the Whigs. They talked of agi-
tation in Ireland.—(Cheeriand laughter.) But the party
opposite obtained their majority by agitation on the
Corn- laW.—(Cries of " Question.") They obtained it
by agitation on. the Poor-law. That was the question.
He felt it his duty •to tell- Hon. Members opposite what
was the feeling of the people of England. Let them look
at the Times, the Morning Post, and the Herald ; those
were some of the supporters of the Government.—
Although he supported the Poor-law itself, he could
not support that dereliction from principle by which Hon.
Members opposite had been brought into power.
Mr. GRIMSDITCH said it would have been better
for the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down to have
reserved his warmth for some subject connected with
Ireland.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear." from Sir 11.
W. Barron.) His only object appeared to, be to have a
throw at the Right Hon. Gentleman below (Sir R. Peel).
With respect to the motion, he could see no' advantage
which could bederived from acceding to it, and as he Was
unwilling to offer any factious obstruction to the passing
of the Poor-law, he could not give it his support.
General JOHNSTONE said, instead of dividing the
Bill into two parts, he thought the best plan would be
to pass a temporary measure. He thought it would be
impossible to go through all the clauses.
Mr. LAWSON said as his proposal did not appear to
meet with the concurrence of the House, he would not
press it to a division.
The motion was then withdrawn.

Mr. T. DUNCOMBE then rose to move--' That, coloi-
dering the distressed state of the commercial and industrious
classes of this country, together with the advanced period of the
session, and the present state of public business, coupled with
the fact, that the Poor-law Commission expires on the 31st of
the ensuing month, it is the opinion of this House, that there is
not now sufficient time to enable Parliament to give that atten-
tion and deliberation to the important changes in the laa.s for
the administration of relief to the poor which the measure
introduced by her Majesty's Ministers imperatively demands ;
and that it would therefore be more expedient, that measures
of a temporary character should be adopted, to meet any
inconvenience which the expiring provisions of exist-
ing laws for the relief of the poor may be deemed
to require." In submitting his motion .to the House,
he was not actuated by any factious motive, though hr
thought that faction, when every thing else had failed, was an
extremely useful resource. His object in submitting his motion
to tke house was merely to save time. The House had only
about five reeks to deliberate upon this important mea ure,
which contained sixty-two clauses ; besides this there were be-
tween forty and fifty notices standing on the paper. He pre-
sumed that it was the intention to allow the House of Lords
some time to discuss the measure, and the least time which they
should allow them was a fortnight or three weeks. If that time
were allored to the other House, the House of Commons
would have only three weeks to discuss the measure. The Bill
was introduced last year in the month of February, and the
House having been occupied in discussing it until the sth of
. .

April ; it was postponed on account of Italic business until
the present Session. After the anouucements which had been
made of a determinatit n to oppose the Bill, he thought
it impossible th it it could go through Committee,
before the termination of the Commission. It rested entirely
with the Opposition, whether the Bill should pass or not; and
he put it to the Government, whether it would be worth while
to proceed. The object of his motion was to induce the Go-
verment to continue the Commission for a short period.
Though he did not think the Commission at all necessary, he
thought there could be no difficulty in continuing it for one
year longer. Now, what was the actual state of public busi-
ness? There were seventeen orders on the paper to-day. Last
night the Right Hon. Baronet introduced three Bills, one of
which was upon the important subject of prison disci-
pline. " What had become of the other measures
which had been announced in the Queen's Speech—
the Bill "for the amendment of the Bankruptcy Court,
and the Bill for the amendment of the Ecclesiastical Courts ?
The latter Bill, it appeared, was to be brought in and thrown
upon the table. They had, indeed, been told that there was a

subject of greater importance than that of registration; that
the perjury which had taken place in Ireland was unparalleled.
It now appeared, however, that the Bill, with respect to Ire-
.

. -
land, wai to be postponed. He could not understand why the
Bill could not be introduced at an early period of the Session,
after the declarations the Noble Lord had made as to its para-
mount importance. hat was proposed by the Poor-law
Not only the continuance of the Commission, but the abolition
of the Gibe, t Corporations—the setting aside of all local Acts, and
the continuance of the proxy system of voting. It also established

a new set of those itinerant nuisances, the—Assistant-Poor-law
Commissioners. Was it possible to believe that this Bill could
be passed through the House in three weeks? Were they to
have no discussion on the estimates that still remained to be

voted, on the eight or nine hundred thousand pounds that
were to be appropriated to the China war, to the Canadian

estimates? Wt re all th 4 se public questions to be set aside,
and this objectionable. Bill to be proceeded with? The pub-
lic mind was not in a fit state to receive this Bill as it was at

present presgM on them. The opinion of every ninety-nine
men out of a hundred out of that House, was against the
Bili. What was the opinion with regard to the Bill expressed
in the petition he had presented to the House, signed by three
millions of the people? They stated that in England, Ireland,
Scotland, and \Vales, thousands of people were dying of actual
want, and that they looked with the greatest alarm on the de-
termination of the Government to continue the Poor-law Bill
in operation. He should not now go further into the merits
and demerits of the Uhl ; he hoped the House would agree to
the motion, and postpone the discussion of the measure till an
early period of the next session. This would conciliate the
minds of the people; but any a-tempt to push the measure
on, he was assured, would only end in defeat and disap-
pointment.
Mr. WALLACE perfectly agreed with the Hon. Member
as to the necessity of postponing the present measure, and he
believed further, that if it were persevered in, the time of the
House, which ()tight to be devoted to the consideration of the
distress of the working classes throughout the length and
breadth of the land, could not be applied to that purpose. In
the part of the country to which he belonged the distress was
becoming daily deeper and more gloomy ; nor was there a:ay
appearance of improvement in trade; it seemed as if mote
aad more of the people were being made destitute for the
want of employment and wages. The Right lion. Baronet
had told him that he could not give him (Mr. Wallace)
an evening to bring this important subject before the
House. Individual Members were now deprived of
the power of bringing such motions before the House.
Tuesdays'had been given up for public business, until their
important measures should have been disposed of. No sooner
were those measures over, than. the Right Hon. Baronet had

proposed that for tie remainder of the session the Tuesdays
should be devoted to public businesa. Her Majesty's late
Ministers had immediately acceded to the proposition, thus
making it clear that the two great parties did not wish to en-
courage any discussion on the motions of individual Members—
that they were desirous that public business only should .be
attended to. They had now what he called a Poor-law Parlia-
ment sitting in King William-streets who were distributing
alms to the destitute in England and Scotland. He had en-
deavoured to discover by what authority these gentlemen re-
ceived money, :and also upon what principle they distributed
relief. He had been unable to discover either. He believed
they were actuated by sentiments of humanity, but still the
public had a right to know under what authority they col-
lected the money, and upon what principle they distributed it.
If he was shut out from bringing on a discussion on the gene-
ral state of the country, he would avail himself of the rules of
the House in order to force it on. He would move order after
order, so as to prevent the public business being carried on,
and if five or six Members would stand by him, he would go
on until he had forced Parliament to attend to the distresses of
the people. He believed the Parliament ought to interfere be-
tween the people and starvation. If the people were to be
suffered to starve, let the Parliament say so. And if there
were any source from which they could be relieved, let the
Parliament say. so. In this country, it was said, they had a
Poor-law that provided for the distressed poor. Did it do so,
he would ask ? In his country they had no such law, and the
time of Parliament would have been better occupied in pro-
viding a Poor-law for Scotland, than in amending the Poor-
law of England. He should support the motion of his Hon.
Friend, and adopt the course to which he alluded with regard
to the business of the House, if ho was supported by any lion.
Member.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM requested the attention of the
House for a very few moments. He found no reason to com-
plain of the motion which they were then discussing ; and so
far from considering it a factious motion, he looked upon it as
a very natural one. He thought it fairly raised a most important
question for the deliberate attention of the House. He hoped
and believed, however, that if the motion were negatived by
a majority, which would leave no doubt as to the opinions of
the House, those gentlemen who were opposed to her Ma-,
jesty's Government on the question would, as was usual in all de-
liberative assemblies, feel themselves bound by such a decision.
Let him be allowed to -call the attention of the House to what
were his feelings upon the matter then under consideration.
The Hon. Gentleman had said that it was most desirable to
conciliate unanimity in that House upon such a subject as
the Poor-law. Ile (Sir James Graham) admitted the im-
portance of that object ; but he felt that such a consideration
should yield to others of a still higher importance.
No man could bs mere deeply impressed than he was
with the widely-spread distress among the working classes in
his cow:try. While he made that admission most unequivo-
cally, he felt that the question of the administration of relief to
the poor, was at this moment environed with peculiar difficul-
ties. •It was, therefore, his duty to consider carefully in what
mode these difficulties could be met most safely and most ad-
vantageously for the public. He had some experience in the
matter. He admitted the existing distress, that there were in
England and Wales 1,200,000 persons now receiving relief from
the poor-rates.—( Hear, hear.) There was not the slightest
use in disguising the extent of the evil. He was speaking
plainly in the discharge of a painful duty. They were a deli
berative assembly—the great council of the nation, and he
should betray his trust if he did not speak to them frankly. He
admitted distinctly that the distress was wide-spread. He had
said 1,200,000 persons were in the receipt of parish relief. Ile
had asked himself hew should this difficulty best be met. He
had had experience of long periods of distress, uninfluenced by
any control similar to that exorcised by the Poor-law Commis-
sioners. He had had experience of the contrary—of control
exercised by them ; and, advising the Crown, he should
say, that the difficulties of the present moment were only
to be safely met, in the administration of relief,
by the continuance of the Poor-law Commissioners in powers

such as he asked to be extended to them by this Bill. He de-

precated altogether the short continuance- of this power only
for a single year. He was convinced that the Commissioners
could only encounter the difficulties to be overcome on this
subject by the marked countenance of the Legislature. He
wasconvinced that the continuance of the Commission for only
12 months, would mark a want of decision in the Legislature
with respect to the measure itself, and evince distrust in the
persons in whom they ought to confide. It was his conviction
that, so curtailed in power and so 'oranded with want of confi-
dence, the Commissioners could not, with advantage to the
public, manage the difficulties they had to deal with. On the
other hand by extending their power for the term proposed in
that Bill, the Commissioners would be enabled to deal with
the difficulties of the present moment. '1 he Hon. Gentleman
who had just sat down had said that out of doors, there was a
strong feeling against the continuance of the Commission,
and that the Commissioners were itinerant nuisances. Now,
as for the charge of their being itinerant nuisances, he must
say the House was aware of the extent to which distress existed
in the manufacturing districts, but in none was the distress felt
more severely than in the district around Burnley. He had
stated on a former occasion that the Government and Poor-law
Commissioners, viewing the peculiar distress of that district, had
sent down an Assistant Commissioner, of practical experience and
knowledge, to visit that district, and regulate the administration of
relief to the poor. From great mismanagement, the admini-
stration of relief there was involved in great confusion. Sir J.
Waltham, from his experience in the northern counties, was
thought the fittest person to superintend the administration of
relief, and he was accordingly sent. down. Instead of his being
considered an itinerant nuisance, his mission, which was of
temporary duration, lastinc, only for one month, was attended
with the restoratien of order, where confusion had previously
existed. He had placed the distribution of relief to the poor
upon such an improved footing, that, upon his withdrawal, a
wish was generally expressed that some similar superintendence
should be continued to be exercised in the district. Under

these circumstances, it was hard that gentlemen who were exe-
cuting a painful duty, should be exposed to such -charges, espe-
cially when they had not an opportunity ofexplaining.—( Hear,
hear.) He would again repeat, that he believed the continu-
ance of the central control was indispensable for five years;
and he entreated and implored the House, under those circutn-
tiances, not to throw into irretrievable confusion the machinery
by which so great a number of persons were relieved.
He therefore entreated the House not to decide the question on
a single motion. If the Houte agreed with him upon the ne-
cessity of maintaining the Commission, he asked them by a
decisive majority, to negative the motion. Having done that,
they would proceed to commit the Bill, and the first clause
would raise the question of the continuance of the Commission;
and when that was once decided, the remaining chores were all
mitigations of tl.e pre:ent system, except the 6th, which referred
Ito the abolition of the Gilbert Unions. Upon all those points
he was quite prepared to enter upon the discussion of them in
, the most amicab'e and conciliatory spirit, and to conciliate the
support of those who interested themselves in favour of the
poor, whose welfare be oat sincerely and deeply desirous to
promote.—( Loud cheers.) But he did not think he would be
acting with kindness towards the poor, or doing his duty. if he
consented to forego any opportunity of pressing on the Legisla-
ture the paramount importance of the renewal of the Poor-law
Commissionznot for one, but for five years.—( Cheers. )
Mr. HUME said that when the Bight Hon. Gentleman told
them that there were 1,200,000 receiving relief horn parochial
funds, and probably half that number who could not obtain it,
a frightful picture was exhibited before them.—( Hear, hear.)
For himself he had always supported the Bill and the Central
Commission as a measure essential to the well-being of the
.country, because of its tendency to promote a spirit of inde-
pendence, and habits of economy and prudence amongst the
labouring classes.—( Hear, hear.) But after the trial they had
of the working of the Bill, he did not thir.k they treated the
working classes as they ought.—(Hear.) He thought they
might continue the Commission far one year or for two, and
commence early next session with the general 13i11 A docu-
ment was had upon the table of the House—the Report of Mr.
Mott upon the ,Keightley Union—(" Hear, hear," from Mr.
Ferran,t)—to which he entreated the attention of Hon. Gen -
tlernen.—( Hear, hear.) He did riot believe that such a state
of things as was described in that Report ought to be suffered
to continue, and an inquiry ought to be instituted into the facts.

FERR A ND—'i hey are-not true.—(Cries of " Order.")
Mr. HUME—The Hon. Gentleman says they are not true ;
but I believe the Commissioner rather than the Hon. Member.
—( Loud cheers.) He (Mr. Hume) heard' the Hon. Member
make assertions which he did not support.—( Heir, hear. )
Here was an officer making a Report in execution of his duty,
and could he ( Mr. Hume) doubt that Report ?—( Hear, hear. )

, .
The Hon. Member would, therefore, excuse him, considering
the interruption, for snaking the answer he did. —(Loud cries
of " Oh. oh," and " Hear, hear, hear.") It was the first vote
he ever gave against the Poor-law Commission, but when he
saw the misery and destitution of the country, what could he
do ?—( Hear, hear.) If the Hon. Baronet wished to remove
the distress of the people let him remove the barriers of the
importation of their food.—(Oh, oh ) They might depend
upon it the time would come wl.en they would be obliged to do
that without favour which they now refused. He had also a
greater objection, which was that when they did open their
ports it might be too late. In consequence of our rejecting
the corn of other'countries, they were led to adopt measures
against us which might render them ultimately independent
altogether. Ile should oppose the five years period of duration ;
he had not altered his opinion as to the principles of the Bill,
but he mistrusted its correctness. He would tell them that they
never would be able to maintain the Poor-laws and the Corn-
laws together. There would soon be only two classes of persons
in the country, the very rich and the very poor, and he would
like to know what advantage they would then derive from their
property. The prospects of the country bad never been so
gloomy as they were at present ; and there was no probabi'ity
of a termination to the sufferings of the people unless they es-
established free trade in provi'ions. Away with charity. lie
wished to see the population of England assume a manly form,
instead of requiring to be supported by begging letters. They,
might depend upon it that the rich as well as the poor would
ultimately feel the distress. Ile called upon them in this state
of circumstances to deal out to others that justice which they
would have dealt out to themselves.
Mr. LIDDELL said he rose to submit a proposition to the
House which he believed would, if acceded to, remove all the
obstacles to the settlement of this question. The proposition
which he had to make was, that her Majesty's Government, in
consideration of the late period of the session, would consent to
limit the Bill to the first five clauses. By that means the
present law would be continued without compromising anyone's
opinions, and they might, in the next session, discuss all the
clauses of the Bill. He thought that was a very fair propo-
sition. His proposal was, that they should pass a temporary
law, leaving the powers of the Commissioners dependent on the
will of Parliament; and they might afterwards consider the'
whole subject next session. lie did not deny that great distress
now prevailed in the manufacturing districts ; but he could not
agree with the Hon. Member for Montrose that a repeal of the
Corn-laws would alleviate the evil. It was well known that
there was now little or no corn in the ports of northern Europe,
so that the nostrum of the lion. Member for Montrose would
produce no beneficial . effects for the working classes, while it
would disturb the great arrangements which had lately re-
ceived the sanction of the Legislature.
Lord JOHN-RUSSELL said it was for the Government to
consider what course they would adopt with regard to the pro-
position of the Hon. Gentleman. Perhaps the most convenient
course would be for the House to consider the first five clauses,
and then they would are what work was before them, and be
able to see if the House would be disposed to agree to the
remainder of the clauses. That, however, was a subject for the
Right Hon. , Gentleman to consider and to determine on.
What he thought it essential that they should not do, was, that
they should not merely renew the power of the Commissioners
for a single year—such a course would tend to weaken
the authority of the Commissioners. If the House in-
tended to support the Poor-law he hoped the House
would agree to the clauses, and give the time proposed by the
Bill, in order to give the Commissioners the authority neces-
sary for the due execution of their duty. He would say no-
thing with regard to the proposition of the Hon. Gentleman;
but he must give his opinion against the advice of the Hon.
Member for Montrose, who said that they ought not to con-
tinue the authority of the Poor-law Commissioners; because he
differed in opinion with the Government on the subject of the
Corn-laws. He was sorry that the Hon. Member for Mont-
rose had introduced the question of the Corn-laws into the
discussion, and he regretted still more that the Hon. Gentle.
man opposite should have followed the example. He disagreed
with the Hon. Gentleman opposite ; and certainly the speech
of the Hon. Gentleman held out great temptation to reply ; he,
however, wuuldnot yield to the temptation, but he could not
agree, that because they had a system of Corn-laws, of which
they did not approve, that therefore they should have a bad
system of Poor laws. He believed that if they had a good
system of Corn-laws there would be fewer persons requiring
relief; but he could not agree that because they had a system
of Corn-laws of which lie did not approve that therefore they
were to have a system of Poor-law relief calculated to foster im-
prudence, arid to give the labourer relief in the worst possible
manner, by giving it in aid of wages. He thought no system
of Corn-laws could make it expedient for the House to have a
bad system of Poor-laws. He admitted that any system of poor-
lews would be rendered more difficult of administration on ac-
count of the distressed state of the country; but if they thought
the present system of Poor-laws the best that under existing
circumstances could be adopted, they ought to support the mea-
sure. He should, therefore, oppose the motion of his Hon.
Friend, and after the Bill had passed through Committee the
House would be able to see if there would be time during the
short period the session was likely to last to consider the clauses
which did not at present form part of the Bill.
Colonel WOOD should vote for the five first clauses
as they stood, but lie should wish the Act to be discussed next
Session, and that the relief should be fixed by the Act, and not
left to the Poor-law Commissioners.
Mr. FERR AND rose for the purpose of informing the
House that he believed the Poor-law Commissioners, as well
as the Assistant Commissioners, were thoroughly prepared to
vote black was white if they could only put the public money in
their pockets. He also rose for the purpose of defending him-
self as a member and chairman of the Keightley Board of
Guardians, and he hoped he should do so to the satisfaction of
the House, and prove that the Repert laid on the table by a
paid officer of the Government, was a most false and scandalous
Report.—( Herr, hear.) He was not going upon rumour, like
the Hon. Member for Bath.—( Hear, hear.) He should bring
forward the evidence of Sir J. Walsham. He was there to
speak the truth, and he cared not who he might offend
by it. The Government of the country were indebted to the
deep-rooted hatred which the poor people had for the Poor-law
fur its majority in that House.—( Hear, hear.) What hurled
the Whigs from power? The fact of standing by the
Now Poor-law. The opposing that law had given the
Conservative candidates of the North of England their
majority, and he was there fearlessly to do his duty. (He
then proceeded to read the extracts from Mr. Mott's Report,
accusing the Board of Guardians of violating the instructions
of the Commissioners.) Mr. gat, himself, said the Board
of Guardians were acting in opposition to the orders of So-
merset House. He found that Sir John Walsham, in his Re-
port, by way of introduction to the Report of Mr. Mott, stated
that the Settle poor had more than doubled since February,
1837. It would be in the recollection of the House that in a
speech which he had made a short time ago, he took upon him-
self to defend the chairman of the Board of Guardians in his
own neighbourhood, against the attack of Mr. Mott. It had
been stated by Mr. Molt that he had introduced tens of thou-
sands of poor persons from the south of England into the parem
of Bingley. The fact we s, that the surplus population of the
county of Lancashirewas caused by thousands of the poor of the
south of England being turned off their parishes and sent to Lan-
eashi re, and this gentleman emiloyed numbers of them in his rail ls.
What said Mr. Mott? He begged the attention of the Hon.
Member for Montrose. He said the guardians conducted
their business in a very satisfactory manner. Sir J. Walsham
said the guardians disposed of their business in a business-like
manner ; but he was not inclined to argu t in favour of the
proceedings as regarded a more systematic disposition of out-
door relief. He (Mr. Ferrand) had only received Mr. Mott's
Report yesterday morning, and he sent it down immediately
by the last night's post, and he had every reason to believe
that an extraordinary meeting would be held on Monday to
refute the charges brought against. the Board of Guardians in
that Report. He (Mr. Ferrand) had given notice of a mo-
tion that evening, for the purpose of obtaining sumo informa-
tion as to certain proceedings sehic'a had taken place
within the last ten slays in Settle union workhouse.
That was no party question. It was one of life or death—a
question by which was to be decided the point whether or not
the working classes were to be united in decided hostility to the
in titutions of the country. The people of England wet e not
I so forgetful of the principles of their ancestcrs, as to render it
necessary that Commissioners should be the dispensers of cha-
rity to their distressed fellow-countrymen. In the month.of
July, 1839, the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary of State

for the Home Department, had made a speech in which he
seemed to censure the principle of refusing, under all circum-
stances, cut.door relief ; and the Right Hon. Baronet stated
that the law, in that resct, had been capriciously applied.
'The Right H peon. Bar met also stated, on that occasion, that
unless the Board of Guardians in Cumberland were to be left
unfettered, he would not answer for the consequences during' ioa
the ensuing winter. Neither, unless his Board of Guardians
viere left unfettered, would he (Mr. Ferrand) be responsible rot
for the consequences du-ing the coming winter.—(Hear.)
He then read from a speech of Sir R. Peel in 1839, his opinion e.
as to the propriety of continuing the Poor-law Bill, and the .
size of unions. It was public opinion that carried the Right
Hon. Baronet into power, and if he braved the public opinion
of the North of England, he believed that his Ministry would .•
net last two years. When it was first introduced it was said
that it worked well ; but it worked well by saving the merley of
the rate-payers, and that was no test of the constitutional prin-
ciple. The whole Conservative press of the North, the ehole
daily press of this Metropolis, and the weekly press through-
out the country, were taking a tone upon this law that must
shake any man, however popular ; and if the Right BC"'
Baronet Pursued his present course, he would give Lim onlY
two years to destroy the influence he had acquired. The Right
Hon. Baronet (the Secretary of State) had attacked him rather
warmly for the exciting character of his speeches ; but had not
the Right Ilonourable Baronet himself been a member
of the Reform Ministry, who did all in their power le
influence the people? The party he belonged to had never
influenced the minds of the people—had never threatened the
House of Peers —they took their stand upon constitutional •
principles.—( Sir Robert Peel here rose and quitted the
House.) The Right Hon. Baronet had quitted the House s,e4-1
miuute too soon:.— Laughter. He could refer to more of
the flight Hon. Baronet's opinions. The New Poor-ler Ate
had dried up the springs of charity. It had taught the rich
to forget their duty to the poor. The love of idleness wag at
natural to man. There was no man who would not live With" ,Tod
out labour if he could ; and the reproach upon the poorer c-sssel
that they were idle would apply as well to those who cruthe it
them in the dust.—( Hear, hear.) The Right Honourable
Baronet might find persons to support him in paesing set
this bad law, although they had broken faith with their
tuents, and foresworn the solemn promises they had made a ;ti
the hustings. But a day of reckoning would come, old Englist: 3/0
feeling would revive, and when the agitation that commence e,is
ten ye ars ago had subsided, the English people would pass 11
solemn judgment open this measure and its promoters.
e
Colonel 'l'. WOOD sail the time had now come, when th
House must decide whether this law was to be continued or
not. He had thought it his duty to examine into the workil
of the law, and he had found that it was advantageous W
parties—to the poor, and to those who supported the poor; and,
above all things, advantageous to the rising generation. Ilef
begged to bear his testimony to the practical good working
the present system.
Mr. S. WORTLEY was not one of those who would Xer
any unfair opeositien to the Bill, but he certainly should 011,,°
it, and that decidedly end firmly. On the present occasion, '—
should feel it his duty to vote in favour of the motion of the
Hon. Member for Finsbury (Mr. T. Duncombe).
Mr. WA K LEY was surprised to hear the sentiments that
fell from the Hun. arid Gallant Member for Middlesex (‘-e
Wood). If it had not been for the support which his 14°;
Friend behind him ( alr. Hume) had given to this laiserria,io
would have been Member for the county of Middlesex.
Gallant Colonel would share that Hon. Gentleman's fate at the
next election. With respect to the conduct of the Right 14°11;
Baronet in this matter, he saw the difficulty in which he e,‘,
a;
placed in this matter, and he ceted like a cautious and a n'st
General accordingly. The Right Hon. Baronet thought 11:3,1
by the vote the Government gave now they would be OE e
hereafter, and he was right ; but he warned the Right 140nt-
Baronet against concluding that he wculd be able to carri
the law, although he might be backed by a large majority of 11l
House. '-hay had starving thousands, they would soon llac:f
starving millions; were they prepared to pass this Act .?
coercion for the poor—for it was an Act of coraciehnt
He asked the Right Honourable Baronet if he thought ts
theif this law were enforced it would be calculated to ensure
peace and safety of the country ? He hoped the Right 14°1,e;
Baronet did rot think so, for if such was the opinion of t.• -
Right Hon. Baronet, then no man had ever formed more 1,0 t:
correct or erroneous conclusions than the Right Hon. Barlir.
What harm could be done by adopting the motion of his LA' o
Wakley's) lion. Colleague? He (Mr. Wakley) had er.,,
asked to take advantage of the forms of the House in opness
this Bill to the last, so that the Commission should die a nat°',.,t
death at the end of the month, but considering the pre tin
awful state of the country, the amount of distress existing 3,
likely to exist, he now expressed himself ready to yield to rho
suggestion of hie Hon. Colleague, and to consent to the co,
tinuauce of the Commission for another year. He did not 01.'3_
sent to this arrangement without unwillingness, but still le':
would consent to it. The Right Hon. Baronet had spoken
of
a factious opposition. That was not a just remark on the Pall to
the Right Hon. Baronet. The Government had no nee' •
complain of the manner in which they had been treated 1,11,
that House—( Hear, hear)—they had never experienced aavf
thing but a perfectly fair and candid opposition, and on mere
the Opposition had given the Governin;as
its support. The question was ono of great f,tf
tional importance affecting as it did the sa.f it
and comforts of millions of the poor of this country; antd:i to
was in the power of the House to do anything calcula.e eot
conciliate the suffering people, it was their duty to take ,t'i„se,
course, instead of carrying out, their own theoretical prinei
to the uttermost. He hoped, therefore, that the Right 11. g-)
Gentleman would take the proposidon of his (Mr. VirabeLst
Hon. Colleague into his serious consideration.. eel— to
hoped that they might not divide on the question to-nigo!llout
qrder that the Right Hon. Gentleman might have twenty ass
hours more for consideration. The Right Hon. Baronet
little aware of the feeling in the House and of the still strong,.'
feeling out of doors in regard to this most important subjeca.6
(Hear, hear.) Allusion had been made to the Report of rr.;‘,.
Mott, and although admiting the statements made hY,7
Mott to be exactly true, he thought some censure neign"o,
some points attach to the guardians of the Keightley lk` (101;
yet he saw infinitely more to censure in the spirit in which o°,
Report had been drawn up than in anything that had ° be/
done by the Board of Guardians. Were they legislatina.o,:.,
would ask, with an understanding that the destitute pcor eat
a right to relief ?—(Cheers. ) Had the destitute poor a rk,
to relief?—( Cheers.)
Mr. ROEBUCK—No. t°l n,4
• Mr. WAKLEY—The Hon. and Learned Member for '-dietes2
denied their right. I\ ow he (Mr. Wakley) would saY'" sr;
every man who denied that right, however fit he might be,pei
be a legislator in that House was unfit to carry out the Pee"-
law—( Hear, hear)—because it showed that his mind vwserf."
sate .0
constructed that he was incapable of carrying it out in r „ toe',
spirit.—(Hear.) Now what did Mr. Commissioner Mott e,„Jaki
this point. What said this perambulating luminary, who -tioea
dered up and down the country, for the purpose of instrne,
Boards of Guardians in their duty of informing A.lagi'vtroble?
how wrong they were in ordering relief—of :Sowing , fee
Lords that they knew nothing of their duties to the poor_,l ore
aristocracy of the kingdom was sinking itself to the lowe'ff;st
of degradation and infamy by consenting, in order to c,
seeming saving of a few pence, to be insulted by the hire" „el,
of the Government in every union in England. Relief, l'erois6
was generally confined to the paymert of rent to 211 al'rf :Or• 4
extent. This might, or might not be true. If true, he 't tees ~
Wakley) did not approve of the practice. In the
this..., The paupers insolently claim relief as a right. ors,
that was the statement of one of the Poor-law Corninis.4°ister
and put upon the table by a Minister of the Crown, the Whisaid
for the Home Department. A Poor-lava Commissioner gad
that the paupers insolently demanded relief as a right .eare
they that right under the Act of Elizabei h? For nearly 20"t)t, tif
they had that right, and did they take that right from the 00
the Poor-law Amendment Act ?—( Hear.) If not, tWell rigor
principle was it' that they acted? If the paupers had !few,
to be relieved, No man was accountable for starving "e:s re"
(Hear, hear.) If they had no right to relief, who 10011:,..
sponsible in law for starving them ? The paupers in°o,l in
claimed relief as aright Was that man to be continnpoor
the Commission ? He (Mr. Wakley) for one, if the f thar
law Commission was to be continued, and the agent °o'
Commission, who had dared to make that statement and 9
0011
it to the House of Commons —said, if there were no other grj
rd
for refusing co continue the Commission for a period r;oef.
years, that was sufficient, unless such a man was distal con"
He, for one, would offer his unflinching opposition to it! sod
tinuance, for he could conceive nothing more monstretifoot
unjust--nothing, in fact, more guilty than for a biredd 'row
of the Government to dare to say that the poor man hs.fied
in
lently demanded relief as a right. Now, what did he fit
the last part of the Report? tie would read the whole
°f tt.
—" Two Magistrates afterwards attended the meeting 'wood,
Board of Guardians, Messrs. Ellice and Greelnn 00
to whom I stated the complaints made." 1. „or
preceding paragraph he stated that the reeletesiet
officer had been repeatedly summoned for 0'
relief in several cases. In the last paragraph the relle"-Zeitlye
firer was stated to complain of being summoned. If telof of
held relief was he not to be summoned? He complain ..,,se
grievance, and Mr. Mott seemed to interfere for the ntroe le,
preventing the Magistrates granting the summons. 'earol,l"
them look to this. Could any one conceive a more 01°,0, 91'
course of proceeding? Mr. Mott said, " two Magislr:', sole
'
tended the meeting of guardians, to whom I stated tha's. sole;
plaints had been made by the relieving officer of his ben;' bat
moved. They said that the clerk had granted surnnion-Vd, tbi!,
they always told the relieving officer that relief rested wliseiCh
Board of Guardians." The Magistrates told ti" !,°
officer, therefore, " You have nothing to fear from 11.3' wed wA.
too, was in a district where the law was as little under, sit
the ,
the Magistrates as the guardians. This was the of t
was laid with so much eclat on the table of the House eio,
mons. If there was anything to stamp the Comull'`rthisOto,
disgrace it was this. The very parties who carried on t was ed.
were obnoxious to any Poor-law, and their only Ale' osile,ee
get rid of giving relief to the destitute. If the poor
relief lie was called insolent. This stamped, in his (1
opinion, more odiously the character of Mr. Mott thal
which bad been thrown out against the Keightley 1-Tn°oolitas.
could discover nothing which related to the Board deo Issawja.,
so bad as this. Now if that was the spirit, in which we/ ,no
carried, out the Right Hon. Baronet might deller'..,e; it
that the screw might be turned too tight upon a hurZilt
There was more distress in the country at this Inix'o3, in on;
any man could imagine. He (Mr. Wakley) was f iterS°o
habit of meeting tradesmen, farmers, and all classes
rd
and since he had been in public life he had never hear „sae
to equal the statements of the public distress. Every`.traceo,
complaining of want of business. There were ae°Pore at o„
ing the country, seeking employment, willing to
wages they would give them. lie had himself a st" at $0,16,
few miles from town, about ten miles from Laosnkcie::::7otit°boutler
there had Leen a scene more painful than it was l'e'seekingkose
scribe. The poor people came acroesahe country, d riot we to
work, without a farthing in their pockets. Thee' ha eionel et
at work in the field half an hour before they
buy bread; they were utterly incapable of wo,:ri:7arid eeoi
sustenance as they went on. They slept in the oa for
houses, and some of them did not take their Clothes
tobey „co:. I
together. But the statement they made was, thaLeaa, be.rae
rather die than go into a union workhouse.--(",, the n 00
Now he said that they had made by their Poor-la,, be haW he
houses houses of torture. As he had already state? 6 be; his
desire to go into the general question at that ~gaolrner_oe eer•
hoped the Right Hon. Baronet would adopt the pre
oartollatee
Hon. Colleague for continuing the Commissioo ons
hNo esple;ti;
He was exceedingly hostile lied he proposition,
ee%t et
te
the Commission would have a natural deaan ". perona
It was a physical impossibility for the flight I!°,ntberefer:',ol3
get the Bill through by the end of next moat.% corotet7oo
hoped he would take the proposition to renew 1.00,0;, foe
for one year. If the country considered that t',:eo„ regrog
a good one and salutary he would express his r'esunn the,
he would offer no hostility to the meaeure. in_efieet ca
seat he entreated the Right Hon. Baronet tat. it sesoo; the
proposition of his Hon. Colleague. Ile thougntee9. e
Ile
the most rational under all the eiscurnstaT; gear.) .t not
most reasonable to submit to the House'( it, it,
hstowaoo.
earnestly implored the Government to recoil lei!' c
o'itbe
adhere to the determination expressed by the tour
Gentleman ; and he hoped that he would in ositioonlorr.4s
evening state his willingness to accede to the Pt preen t Ye s
Mr.'COCHRANE said he should not have rolhio, tool, ti—
the House if he did not think it incumbent npoo
pl.:men
,ppuebeltictoexthpilsanßatilir ofitehewcaosuseuserrlrmiseirditetnhttaetiliti...oiri
jainepe_ani7lairio.tist.o
had confined themselves to observations upon quest•' la
and had not entered into the discussion of
ottrifiewbslelo'titheri,acti::
concerned the people in general. Every but t
floe la
two objects—one, relief, speedy and effecttleal. at relief _ratite j
the least important, seemed to him to b. enerclr 3 blesfe
offered in such a manner as to coil forth the oatbot SW or t",
bothos
althee
vt
hproaorgrgi.vueu Ie
argument,
ntd, tt appearedhhaetr
teht teeoi
vfihersirn.:4ot,hitie.hloiif..;ho.lt:A.idbeerfhil,_e p.a.., se

--- --"

ers.
ne when the
MP
:on; inuen
the workie(
t &goons to 11
le poor; He
?.ration. P,
,c 1 working 0'

lo would safer
should olVir
t occasion, e
notion of Ihe