The Sun.
London, England, 1842-03-08 00:00:00

PRESBYTERIAN MARRIAGES

Mr. E. TENNENT presented three petitions
from the county of Down, praying for a prospective
and retrospective measure on the subject of Presby-
terian Marriages.
UNIVERSAL SUFFRAGE.
An HoN. MEMBER presented petitions in favour of
Universal Suffrage, Vote by Ballot, and for shortening
the duration of Parliament.

Mr. M. SUTTON presented a petition in favour of
the County Courts' Bill.
GLASGOW AND AYR RAILWAY•

The Glasgow, Paisley, Kilmarnock, and Ayr Rail-
way Bill was read a second time,
7: CORN-LAWS.

Sir V. BLARE presented a petition, praying for
increased protection to Irish grain, to that given by
the proposed Governnnt scale of duties.
Lord NEWRY presented a petition, with the
same prayer, with the addition of it request that the
Government pleu should not come into operation for
six months,

Mr. T, DUNCOMBE presented a petition from a
body of residents in the metropolis, complaining of
the manner in which the provisions of the law were
carried into effect, with respect to the burial of
paupers, under the Poor-law Act; also a petition,
complaining of the abstraction of papers from the
Irish Court of Chancery.
Mr, WYNNE ELLIS presented-a petition from
Leicester, against the Corn-laws.
An HON. MEMBER presented a petition from
Cupar and other places in Fifeahire, praying for the
total repeal of the Corn-laws,
Mr. MARK PHILIPS presented a petition,
praying for the pardon of Frost, Williams, and Jones.
An HoN. MEMBER, on the Ministerial Benches,
presented a petition from the Corn-Inspectors of
Reading awl another it praying either to be con-
tinued in their situations, or that the Hon. Rouse
would be -pleased to give them some compensation.
Mr. VILLIERS paces
petitions from Gala-
glens, and" from places in Montgomeryshire and
Durham, praying for a repeal of the Corn-laws.
Mr. J. WOItTLEY presented a petition frorti
Manchester, praying for the release of Frost,;
Williams, and 'Tones ; also a petition from the millers
of Huddersfield, praying for further protection to the
English miller. The petitioners felt assured that the
new proposal of the Government would prove pre-
judicial to their interests.
CHURCH OF SCOTLAND.

Sir ALEX. CAMPBELL gave notice that on the
15th inst. he would 'move for a Select Committee to
consider the constitution and principles of the Church
of Scotland, and into the circumstances of the late
collision between the Supreme Courts of that Church
and the Civil Courts, and to report their observations
thereon ; the Committee to have power to send for
persons, papers, and records.
CONVICTED MANUFACTURERS.

Mr. FERRAND gave notice that on Tuesday, the
16th of March, he would move for a copy of all convic-
tions that took place in the counties of York and
Lancaster, before magistrates in -petty sessions, of
persons for illegally paying wages to work
people in goods, instead of the current coin of the
realm, since the Ist of January, 1835, contrary to
the Act 1 and 2 William the Fourth, chap. 32.
Mr. S. O'BRIEN moved for copies of the Coroner's
notes 'on the inquest of Mr. M'Cardle.—Ordered.
Mr. MASTERMAN wished to ask the Right
Hon. Gentleman at the head of her Majesty's Govern-
ment, with respect to the period at which the new
Corn Bill would come into operation. Some of the
newspapers had given different interpretations to the
answer of the Right Hon. Gentleman the other evening.
and what he wished to know was, whether the
averages would be taken upon the new system the
week after the liiltreceixed the Royal assent.
Sit ii. FEEL said- it was intended that five weeks'
averases should be taken under the old system, and
the sixth week under the new one.
Sir C. NAPIER wished to ask the Chancellor of
the Exchequer whether it was the intention of the
Government to propose increased allowances to the
old captains.
The CIIANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was
understood to say that the question had not at present
been taken into consideration by the Government.
FRENCH OCCUPATION OF ALGERIA.
Sir ROBERT PEEL thought it might be con-
venient in relation to the motion for which the Hon.
and Learned Member for Dungarvon had given
notice for Thursday next, for the production of the
despatch of his Noble Friend, the Secretary of State
for Foreign Affairs, on the subject of the conversation
which had taken place between the French Am-
bassador and his Noble Friend to state at once his
(Sir Robert Peel's) intention on the subject. (Hear.)
It was his (Sir Robert Peel's) intention to lay that
despatch on the table of the House.—(Cheers.) He
did so because in the first place he thought it very
desirable to avoid what he must consider a
most inconvenient practice, namely, the raising
a debate in that House in reference to a debate which
had taken place in the Chamber of Deputies in Paris;
and, in the second place, because in any answer which
he (Sir R. Peel) might have to make to any observation
of the Honourable and Learned Member he (Sir
R. Peel) would have to make frequent reference to
the despatch in question, and therefore he thought it
best that the House should have the whole despatch
to refer to. It would be for the Hon. Member, if he
should think proper afterwards, to found a motion
upon that despatch. While on this subject, he felt
it to be his (Sir R. Peel's) duty entirely to exonerate
the French Ambassador, Cgmte St. Aulaire, from
all blame on the subject. It was his duty entirely to
acquit the Comte St. Aulaire—(Hear, hear)—of any
intentional misapprehension. He (Sir R. Peel) felt
assured that all who had .the happiness to know Comte
St. Aulaire, must feel assured that any misappre-
hension must be entirely unintentional on his
(Comte St. Aulaire's) part (Hear, hear)
and although the Hon. Gentleman might think it
necessary to correct any misapprehension, yet he (Sir
R. Peel) was sure that every one would acquit the
Comte. St. Aulaire of everything like intentional error.
The Right Hon. Baronet then laid a copy of the
despatch on the table.
BANK ISSUES.
Mr. C. WOOD said, before the House went into
a Committee of Supply, he wished to put a question
to the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, in order -to
ascertain what were the intentions of the Government
on a subject of great importance, and which had
excited great interest in the country. The
House was aware, that during the last Session
of Parliament, a Committee was sitting, of which he
had the honour of being Chairman, for the purpose
of inquiring into the circulation of the banks of issue.
In the middle of the session, those events
occurred which brought it to an earlier conclusion
than was expected, and interrupted that inquiry.
The House had barely time, at the close of
the Session, to pass an Act providing for a more
accurate and general publication of the amount
of bank-notes put in circulation, but it was impossible
for the Committee to come to any conclusion, or make
any. Report to the House. Since Parliament had
met, many` inquiries had been made of him, and
he had received a great many communications from
different parts of the country, owing to his having
been Chairman of ;that Committee, requesting him
to ascertain what were the intentions of the Govern-
ment with respect to the question. Some time since
he had mentioned the circumstance to the Right Hon.
Baronet, in order that he might have time to consider
the matter, and to confer with his colleagues as to
the course the Government might think ad-
visable to adopt. He was quite aware that
there would be considerable difficulty in re-
appointing the Committee, from the circumstance that
many of the efficient and active Members had not
seats in the present House of Commons. He, there-
fore, wished to ask what course the Government in-
tended to pursue, on a subject that had excited .great
interest in many parts-of the kingdom.
Sir R. PEEL said he had given his best considera-
tion to this important subject, to which the Hon. Gen-
tleman had drawn his attention, and he was sorry that
last year, after ha Jing applied so much time to a conti-
nuous inquiry into the matter, and with the recollec-
tion of great attention paid to it by the Hon. Gentle-
man himself, and the ability he displayed, they should
have separated without coming to any distinct proposal.
It-appeared to him that a new Committee for fur-
ther inquiry was altogether needless. For three
years there was an inquiry, into the subject of Joint
Stock Banks, which subject, as far as investigation
was concerned, was entirely exhausted by the
Committee ; or if three years would not exhaust

the subject, he (Sir Robert Peel) thought it inex-
haustible. Whilst on the subject at that time the
Right Hon. Gentleman proposed a subject of equal
importance, relative to the issue of stamps by the
Bank of England and other Banks. They sat
two sessions on the subject, making altogether
nine 'sessions. On these grounds he (Sir Robert
Peel) thought a new inquiry was unnecessary.
Should they, then, appoint a Committee of
Inquiry ? He found that no less than eight Mem-
bers of the Committee who were in the last Parlia-
ment were not in Parliament now, and of these eight
several were amongst the most regular attendant: at the
Committee, in addition to this the subjects brought under
the consideration of that Committee were of such im-
portance, that he thought they were matters with
which the Executive Government, rather than a Com-
mittee, ought to deal. This was purely a matter
for the consideration of the Executive Government,
and as soon as it was possible it should be considered,
and the determination of her Majesty's. Government
should be laid before the House.—(Hear`, hear.)
Mr. CHARLES WOOD said he entirely concurred
in what had fallen from the Right Hon. Gentleman.
He had• asked the question merely because he wished
to know what was to be done, and that the answer
might go forth.
THE TRUCK SYSTEM.

Mr. FERRAND said he had been charged with
having made assertions which were not correct, and
with having charged Hon. Members with making use
of expressions which he never did use. But in
standing forward in the House, having been deputed
by the working classes—(Cries of " Oh, oh")—of the
North of England, he trusted he should be acting
strictly in accordance with the rules and regulations
of that House if he took up a little of their time in de-
fending himself. With respect to Friday evening last he
had looked at what he had previously said in that
House,:and he found he never used the word " all "
at all—that he never did charge the Hon. Member for
Stockport with abominable cruelty to his work people;
but that he found, was another lapsus lingua of the Hon.
Member for Salford, like those he uttered the other
night with regard to his print works. The Hon.
Member said he employed twenty persons in his
print works by night during the last eighteen
months, and perhaps that Honourable Member
would be obliged to him (Mr. F.) for giving him an
opportunity to explain the great distinction which
existed between what he asserted that evening and
what he found stated by Mr. L. Horner, in the pam-
phlet which he published. Mr.L.Horner was an inspector
of factories, and he says that no person could print
works without being assisted by others. The process
was carried on by a boy, who stood, by a pot of colours,
and who transferred the colours from the pot
to the cloth by means of a brush for
the purpose of smoothing the surface ; that was called
"colouring," and the person so employed is called
the clear boy. The person so employed must per-
form his work standing, and the air must be
rather humid. He would ask' the Honourable
Gentleman whether, during those eighteen months
persons were not so employed morning and evening,
to assist the men in the print works, and whether
what the Hon. Gentleman stated the other evening
was correct, and what Mr. Homer stated was incor-
rect ? The Honourable Member for Wolverhampton
read, the other night a. declaration signed by
seventy-two cotton spinners, and he (Mr. Ferrand)
had received a copy of the declaration, together with
extracts from the speech made by him the previous
evening in the House. Those cotton spinners
say :—" We, the undersigned Manufacturers
and others engaged in and connected with the Cotton
Trade, being subscribers to the Corn-law League,
have read with disgust the enclosed extracts from
Mr.. Ferrand's speech in the House of Commons."—
(Cries of " Order, order.")
The SPEAKER said, that the Hon. Member was
out of order in reading statements made by persons out
of the House, in allusion to what had been said in it.
Mr. FERRAND—These cotton spinners stated
that they kept no truck-shops, and that they
did not. pay their workmen in any other way than
in the current coin of the realm. But he would
ask the Honourable Gentlemen opposite, if these
cotton spinners did not compel the workmen to take
cottages from them, and whether they did not draw
their cotton with paste ?—(Oh, oh.) He asked them
would they'deny what he asserted of their chalies being
composed of old rags and devil's dust ?—(Laughter.)
They asserted that they kept no truck-shops, and
that they did not pay their working people in any
other way than in the current coin of the realm.
—(Hear.) Now he had never charged them
with doing so ; he had never charged them
with keeling truck-shops ; he had never charged
them with paying their workmen otherwise
than in the current coin of the realm. But he had
said that they evaded the law by their relations keep-
ing truck-shops, by paying their workmen in the cur-.
rent coin of the realm, and then by stopping them
op their way home. Even supposing these 72 cotton-
spinners, declared by the Right lion. Member for
Wolverhampton to be the principal subscribers to
t'ic League—supposing there were 72 just men
ong the Members of the Anti-corn-law League,
could it be said that these 72 men composed the whole
of that League ? He thought they had boasted that
the ramifications of their body extended to every part
of the country—that it was a National League—that
the manufacturers in Yorkshire, and all over Eng-
land, Scotland, Ireland, and Wales had joined
them. If that were the case, how happened it that
after eight days those members of. the League had
only denied by a quibble what he had asserted ?
He turned over, and he found a circular sent to the
Members of the League from the " Anti-Corn-law
League at Manchester." That circular was as fol-
lows :—" You will oblige by affixing your name
to the declaration, and returning it at the earliest
possible opportunity." In that address which the Hon.
Member for Wolverhampton had read to the House
on Friday night there was not one Yorkshire manu-
facturer whose name was attached to it. There was not
the name of any manufacturer attached to it
who did not reside—at least he believed not one—
either in the town of Manchester, or in some other
large manufacturing towns, where they could not, and
thirst not, carry on the truck system, for this very
reason, that the shop-keepers in a mass would rise up
against them, and would not allow such a system to
be carried on. It was in secret—it was in dark cor-
ners, that the poor working men were plundered—it
was where there were no shop-keepers to rise
up and den Ounce the system as he had done in ;that
House.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) No interup-
tion would put him down. He was speaking the
truth ; and if what he asserted were false, let
Hon. Members prove it to be so. But if he did
speak the truth, in the name of the working-classes
of England he called on the Hon. Member for Wol-
verhampton to deny it, instead of devising with
the Honourable Member for Oldham, as he
had done, when he ( Mr. Ferrand) had
made his second speech upon the subject. The Hon.
Member for Wolverhampton went and told the Hon.
Member for Oldham, that the assertions made ought
to be proved ; but the Honourable Member for
Oldham told him upon that occasion, that "he had
better leave the matter where it was, for he
would himself undertake to prove what Mr. Ferrand
had said, and ten times worse."--,-(Hear, hear, and
laughter.) In the name of the working classes of
England he called upon the Hon. Member to move
for a Select Committee before which he (Mr. F.)
would prove everything that he had asserted.
He wished the House would allow him to read a
letter from a poor man, one of the working classes,
who, according to the Hon. Gentleman opposite, were
all in favour of a repeal of the Corn-laws ; and he
thought he could prove the charges he had
brought, or drive Honourable Gentlemen to the
worse resort, of seeking a Select Committee. Now
this was from .a poor working man, and he
trusted that those who came to the House pro-
fessing to be -the_ champion of the poor would
listen to his statement. The writer said "It
is with the greatest pleasure I read your speech of
last Thursday. It was one of the sort that has long
been wanted. But, Sir, though it appears to have struck
such a panic amongst them as they (the Anti-Corn-law
League) little expected, you did not positively more
than half do it. I wish some one on the Con-
servative side of the House would move for a
Committee to inquire. I feel confident it would
strike such an awe over them as that they would not
again be guilty of such practices. On Monday evening,
the 21st last, a meeting of the Anti-Corn-law League
was held in the Temperance Hall, when ---' he
would give the name if required—" was called to the
chair. Now, Sir, this is a spinning master,
and keeps a large mill in Brown-street.
He lives about a mile out of town, in a splendid
mansion on the road." The letter then went on to
state that this individual kept about twenty
cows ; that he compelled his work-people to
have about a. quart of milk a day, whether they
could drink it or not; that most of the spinning
masters compelled their people to rent cottages of
them for which they paid exhorbitant wages. It then
continued :—" Now, I will tell you another ras-
cally trick"—this is a poor labouring man—
"he makes a practice of running his mill
from Monday till Saturday, and because Satur-
day is a short day, in which we work only
nine hours, he only pays the hands for five and
a-half days. I wish you would only give him
a touch in the House of Commons on this point.
I think it would stop him, and it would
confer a blessing on hundreds of poor helpless factory
people, helpless, I say, because too many of us, owing
to the coupling of wheels"—
Mr. WILLIAMS would be glad to know the name.
Mr. FERRAND would give it to the Hon. Gen-
tleman when he sat down,
or, if he wished, he would
follow him out of the House. Nfuno l Let him
tell the Hon. Gentleman that the poor working men
had suffered so much when they had tried to expose
these cruelties, that if a Committee of Inquiry were

appointed, they would hardly dare- too—Come for, ~.
ward. He would prove that ail he had statec, ~,
was true before he sat down. He had giv_eA,rif
an instance of what had occurred ' in,.l
Lancashire, he would now state to the House whrit.-;
had occurred in Yorkshire, in his own neighbourhood-
The Hon. Member then read a letter which pur-
ported to be from a poor weaver residing in Yorkshire
who had been employed by a person who kept a shop upon
the premises, and in which the working men ern:
ployed by him understood that they were to spend
their wages ; the writer of that letter incurred s
debt of ten shillings, which he allowed to he liqui-
dated by a deduction of one shilling .a week front
his wages. On Saturday, the 19th of February last,
his employer deducted the full ten shillings, dis- -
charged him his service, and refused to give hinli
further employment. On the Monday following that -'
poor man applied to a Magistrate for a summons i 5,11.1
order to obtain his wages, and the result was the NiaLf'7,
gistrate gave an order that it should be paid, and be.
(Mr. Ferrand) was happy to say that the Clerk al-
lowed the poor man the tee for the summons, and thui .-*.
ended the investigation of the case by the Magistrate-
These were Anti-Corn-law League men.—(Laugh-
ter.) He (Mr. Ferrand) had scores of such facts to.
lay before the House, and he was prepared to prove. .',
them before a Select Committee ; not only that, but
the working classes of' England -were rising Li?
throughout the country to prove every word
,t..---
Anted in that House. 'W hat would P":'
House say when he told them that ' the
working classes of Birmingham had assembled ti,!..
.-
other day, and unanimously passed a vote of than
t'
to him ?—(Hear, hear, and a . laugh) Yes,, '7 -
repeated it, the working classes of Birmingnmcs
had assembled and adopted a vote of than .r.
~
to him for opposing the conduct of their
hard-hearted task-masters.—(Mr. Ferrand then rr,
ceeded to read the resolutions to which he
NfTi:
alluded.) ' He -would not detain the House N''''
reading the whole of what had taken place at that
t
;meeting, but -he said the people who adopted tha,,,,.
~ resolution were working men, who not only approve
L
of everything he stated within the walls of 6'3; -
House, but justified it, and declared themselves,..
ready to prove it. Let it not be said 'that these state'
e-,
ments depended upon him (Mr. Ferrand). Again f?:
challenged Hon. Gentlemen opposite to call for a Selec g,
Committee, and if they did not, he would do ri•-
The Noble Lord the Member for London had sat
that he had understood that he (Mr. Ferrand) In'
only urged his charges against a limited number et: ,
manufacturers. He (Mr. Ferrand) had said that he
had brought charges against a large number of inanT',.
facturers. On Saturday last he (Mr. F.) had though
it his duty to the Noble Lord, considering tl,'
high position which that Noble 'Lord held, not cal
in the House, but out of the House, to send hin',e
sample of the calico which was commonly sold tn,t;j,
working classes—(A laugh)—and 'he (Mr. F. ,an fx.
also thought it his duty to send a sample' of u'ci.'
calico to the Prime Minister of England—(Loud
laughter)---that they might have ocular demonstratice,
of the sort of stuff that was sold to the working
..„l'en.
ple ; and he was prepared to prove it. Would 0° t
Members opposite contend that calico was ui,
daubed with flour and paste ? He would cal
upon the Noble Lord to rise .in his place and saZtic.
ever in all his life he had known such plunder as Wit
which was practised on the poor in this particular ? I
was really horrible to behold.—(Cheers and laughter./
The shirting sold to the working people was elr",
pletely daubed over with flour paste. Now he (
Ferrand) 0.3
would ask if that was true ?—(Cheep
and laughter.) If it were untrue was there ev,e,l
such an opportunity as that now afforded l',
y
giving him a contradiction.—(Cheers and laughter:ie
Was it not the duty of the Legislature to afford the',,
poor people protection. They had sent to him to 113,7.
him to claim protection for , them from the Ilousrl
Did he say anything that was unfair ?—(Cheer'-r',.
It was well for Hon. Members to smile •ind eheiet, •
but would those who cheered attempt to contrawhe,
him?--(Hear, hear). It was at the request of itlie
poor people that he. had acted as he had done, at''',,,,
an Hon. Gentleman opposite would take up the cauSel,l4,,
way.—(Cheers.). Ferrand) would give
therefore begged of them not to sneer at hirn.--2-(01
and laughter.) His heart had urged him to do yili
he had done.—Cheers and laughter.) He besouth
them to bear with him for the cause he advoet.a
He would read a letter from the Manchester Guard tii;
the organ of the Anti-Corn-law League, which -ti;:-.
appeared in that paper on Ist December last. (-'-'-5,..
Hon. Member here read the letter alluded to, whienl"-.,0
signed " A Manufacturer," and which stated thata
manufacturer paid 7501. per annum more than he h g
_O
done in 1815 for flour for dressing, in consequenee.:6-
the operation of the Corn-laws. That- letter
went on to state that more flour was consumed . 41,1=-37i;
-manufactory in filling up the cloth than was 11300'
- the labourers employed in it for food, and CO
tended that while foreign manufacturers 131
cured their flour for those purposes o'l
cheap rate, it was impossible that British ,inrus!-..
eactirrers could compete with them withottt- 9
repeal of the Corn-laves. The reading'of fhiglot 4
was met hy ironical cheers and loud .141. giro
from the Opposition.) No. wonder the pr ;'4
corn was kept up in the manufacturing- .di4 '
Now he would ask Hon. Gentlemen opposite. ix,_,...
it
they deny that calico contained paste ? He had tamr__,:
that letter from their own organ. When he stated tie'
100,000 quarters of wheat were consumed to defrti
the public, more especially the poorer classes, Ti
statement was considerably within bounds. He }'d
_Teemed it to be his duty, on Saturday last, to info'iii
the Noble Lord, the Member for London, thst4,
.
would be his duty, in defending himself t,.rii-1
evening to refer to a correspondence which took 09. ~
between the Noble Lord and Mr. Baker, the SnPerf`l.,,,,-
tendent of Factories. That correspondence i'''-
ordered to be printed by the Reuse . of Com-0117
on the 21st of -June, 183. - He (Mr. Ferro"
believed that the Noble Lord the. Member '
London was, at that period, Secretary of SO"-
for the Home - Department. He (Mr. f,.:1
rand) did hot blame the Noble -"de,
for not being acquainted with the shoddy trn
, e
But he would read to the House the statement of t'sl3
Sub-Inspector of Factories, which statement '' d,
ordered to be printed by that House, as he j),•11);
stated before, on the 21st June, 1836. He °,..,,..
addressing his Lordship, " that he had to inf`..„„'
him that his report of Taylor, Ibh.ltsy- ;
and Co. (Anti-Corn-law League-men), hzi,:v%v;:i
worked their boys twelve and fifteen ''"---0
was correct. The district was DewsburYi
ei,
Yorkshire, a neighbourhood thickly 1)01)1110
'depending 'entirely on the manufacture of shed ~
cloth, which was made from woollen rags tt)rj
in pieces by a powerful machine., and reduce!
as far as possible to its original form, and the 1.1
worked again into cloth." Now, he asked Honours j.
,Gentlemen 'to listen to this, in tearing up- the"'
rags a great quantity of dust was ernittei:e,
this was called " devils' dust "—so much'
.44
that in general persons standing three or four Yll'ip
apart could scarcely distinguish the other persons.ii
the room, while the machinery was propelled -o,lle
great velocity. Would they listen to him Ivluto
he read four or five lines of the Report its'
Which he had alluded, to prove to them the. cruel
practised upon the poor while the, ir oppressors. defrati.`:;3c
' the public ? There was a -charge broi.ight ag,''l4,,e
these men before the Magistrates. A charge whiLT '.fil
inspector declared the law ,did not give him "i,'ctil e
authority to go into. He took' it, from the mouth o'. ` 0
sufferers themselves,' • and they , stated that °tthe 27th of September they went "to work at :1;1
o'clock in the morning, and with the' exception of ra:Lee
hours, and one hour at midnight, they 'did not eeo,.
working till four o'clock on the Saturday- afterao°.,;,
Did not this justify his charges againSt these 'lett
men of the Anti-Corn-law League—men who sin-il
so much for the suffering of the poor, - i
who went for the repeal of the Corn-laws, °la,
for their own benefit, but for the benefit of e th Pe°Po,l
He would now read five or six lines from
another working man, relative to the short
of those poor men for whom Hon. Gentle
pretended to feel so much, and to whose
fore, he (Mr. F.) hoped they would
poor man said, " I am engaged in
trade in • Battely, near Dewbury, I
your last speech on the Corn-laws, but
made some observations relative to the
In every piece made there are three pounds of flour'
to stiffen it, which deceives the wearer. enti-teVi
and spoils the trade. In another village, "4t,-°OA
a mile from Dewesbury, there used to be
good trade in the manufacture of paddil7,
and drugget." He (Mr. Ferrand) would attic!
Honourable Members to listen, and he vbr°,.e
tell them how the trade in that vil,'4`'is
had been lost out of the mouth of thy.
working man —not by the- operation fac,
the Corn-laws, but by the behaviour of the mant'lor
tuners themselves. The workman went on to say," "411
carried this shoddying and stiffening to such a leri,„Lb t,
that the trade was lost. The trade was entirely lob
but a few manufacturers have retired wior
fortunes. They were in the habit of using fiv,,,e'pr,
six pounds of flour in every piece." He (Air. ' ;he
rand) 'had proved his statement first of all from `ha
Anti-Corn-law League, then from the mouths 01 i."
working classes, and they should now see what deserfi
tion manufacturers gave of it, and then he sh°. 0
challenge the Hon. Members opposite once more to Li
for a Select Committee. (The Hon. Gentleman. ti'of
proceeded to read a letter from a manufacturer' f'
Whitney, in Oxfordshire, relative to the practice to,
shoddying.) He would ask Hon. Gentlemen opPosita the'
do him justice, and he would here bear record to
e,
noble exertions of the Hon.. Member for Salford On
half of the factory children, and though they were opP2eoo
on this question, he (Mr. Ferrand) hoped ',i'
to be able to unite heart and hand with that Hon. Melr4
Ilse the preservation of the factory children. .He hae7
4 16de
only spoken to defend himself from the remarks 's''" „e
against him on Friday last. He felt he had wail '-'),"-e.
his duty to the working men in England, wheal Je 'DJ
presented, and from whom he daily received o•7ores "

sco:
any
the
the
he)

olttri
the
P„ti
44,e
Lord
Polk

140

Pea
II()
b„

'

Ina

nt the lette as the
kddy.trade, 0111; sbitl
lemen oppo3_4l „ Lmil
e letter, the 1',4 A
listen. Th4i in ,
the shodu. , 'kt
0
ave . 0
I am told Y ..liti
ej
shoddy trr,d,_le' : i, , ,
I. ~P Atm** 1 e 1,,,,e1

scores of letters, requesting him not to be put down by
,457 opposition in that House, but to stand forth true to
e truth: That was the basis on which he had addressed
thel;Dose; on that basis held ,on that-asis
hewld
u° tall, and on the part oft thestand working classes he
"uPloreiriliem for .a
Select Committee.
),IMr' VILLIERS said he did not know what the Hon.
‘moteelhelxr who had just sat down meant by asking Hon.
4mon his side of the House for a Committee of
11117- Be thought it was his (the Hon. Member for
ofttl'es,,l?orough's) duty to move for an inquiry, and he
sideilliers) was sure that there was no one on his
trar °f the House who would oppose him ; on the con-
4, every one would support him.
Nnie lELDEN, who spoke in a very low tone of
deal 'o ,D
a, understood to say that lie believed a great
Kaapeoitruth had fallen from the Hon. Member for
ers --curnugh, but he believed that the farm-
that of carrying. on the same trickery as
The 'fr°' which the manufacturers were guilty.
Member was then understood to advert to a
thatle 'atelY brought against a poor man, who stated
had , e was driven by distress to commit the offence ; he
thou'?
gh maintain himself, a wife, and five children ; and
deans
it was then the depth of winter, he had no
we-ek ()f getting a fire. He had earned nothing that
of ,„1,'.411(1 the week before he earned only 6s. 3d., out
the r eich
he paid two debts of ls. 3d. and ls. 40., and
his f:nning 3a.'7A-d. was all he had for the support of
who --Ivy• He stated these facts to the Magistrate,
illinrsa'a that that was not a justification. for acting
distress The poor man admitted that, but said that
"r"e men to do what they would not otherwise
to the" he was sent to prison, he would get something
of and he was then starving. The fate, however,
costs Poor man.was, that he was fined 10s., including
said'il On the sentence being announced, the poor man
conl e e°ud not pay 10d., much less 10s., and he was
41.- Mit-tett to prison for 14 days. These crimes did not
frii:ne from the dishonesty of the working classes, but
itnnierstellc. sheer poverty in which the country was
th!lr- LA.AITITON said that as a Member for one of
suhn°rtheru- counties he took a great interest in the
„,„Jrt then before the House ; and he certainly could
roitt„„elP saYing that there- ought to be a Select Coin-
a,PPointed to inquire into the matter.—(Hear,
de was sure that that was the feeling of the
wh—', h nd II() rose to ask the Hon. Gentleman opposite
IT e woad move for a Committee.
warar.i!:EIZRAND said that when he had brought for-
Lit4l tot charges the Hon. Member for Wolverhampton
144 ~ `L him that the matter should not rest where it
f:• -tle had tholig,ht after that statement of the Hon.
Mher for Wolverhampton that lie would instantly ask
),,,r,a Select Committee, in order that the charges might
iiruvestigated, He had now only to say that-he wouldr
moye for a SeleCt Committee of Inquiry be ()re
ktkir' if some other Hon. Member had not previously ,
tre such a motion. •
chi r. VILLIERS- said that he had already repelled thel2
hat,!ge'.. Re had produced a statement, signed by
—`llfaetUreS, to. Show that they were Unfounded.

THE NAVY ESTIMATES.
• 1 tleror Captain, PE.CHELL said that'he wished to correct an
tae',.,.';',oich had been committed in the reports of what
'thearen from him the Other evening in the debate on
:pressed avY Estimates It was stated that he had ex-
himself
:ainse favourable to large estimates for the pur7
latio °f equipping more powerful fleets on the several
n • Now, that statement was altogether erroneous.
that ouehNtlemen opposite. had. said on former occasions
-TIN 1. avY Wits in an inefficient state and ought to be
luta red ; but he had been of a different opinion. He
to init,waYs maintained the proper policy for this country
*state, tiLe, was not to'exhaust her strength in the peace
deeiptitment:. The Minister of Marine of France had
Iliffe-,,- the statement of an intended reduction. The
NVII, 'bence between himself and the Right Hon. Baronet
linrioetween the Minister of Finance and the Minister of
the fact' Re was inclined to attach the most credit to
s,l.enr on such matters. It was quite clear that the
clue eh Government were not in the least disposed to re •
to e oleir force. He approved of the policy of the Noble
lkilied' the Member for Tiverton, and he trusted that that
Y WQultl,-be pursued by the present Government.
Aft% THE MURDER OF WARDLE.
ari ob - CONNELL begged to trouble the House with
4of 2eet,rVation on a matter which was personal to him-
solue
chef
had been attributed to him in public that in
nnth° hservations which he had made respecting the
ot he clergy, in Spain, he had said that he did
etit4Otaplain ,of such of the clergy being prose-
(44,1, ,','' were of Carlist. politics. He had meant to
c!aiiiAi!distinction, that for any act
.done politically as
Voiihr.he had no sympathy with their sufferings. He
life now make one or two observations in reference to
motiontlie of which he had given notice, for a return of
erne,gstered arms in the county of Down. That rather
.044 it of the murder of a young man named WArdle;
kr,(3 .e most cruel murders that was ever committed.
e,e` Ardle was an exceedingly fine youth, more than
tto4 t three inches in height, of exeellent conduct, and
tem
, e-hf,' Per- On Christmas evening he was at a pub-
"t ;use, and a quarrel arose between a friend of his, of
date tr,e °f M`Keon, and an Orangeman, and to tenni-
'rh !-• quarrel he put his own friend out of the house.
beene was a party of thirty or forty persons, who had
'Pai•t °lit at shooting-match during the day, and thisd
1 in t.,' ere informed by Scott, the other party engage
1 their quarrel, of what had taken place. They resumed
fuse,'a and called out to be admitted ; on be.ing
Ctrs' and they forced an entrance, and broke the windows,
ge..4,-.0. aud furniture. M'Ardle escaped to another pub-
r , use, at the distance of a mile and a half. There
iit4AP_in,,ired, and dragged from an _ innerr_ room
Vu d 7'n )or. He escaped a mile. further ;he
:MON i 'they found him lying by a lime-kiln,dragged
,
kti
%alio )ng the road, and one of them shot him dead.
.W4r ° riot wish to 'throw blame upon any party ; but
illy,, v 2.8 a shout in Court—the usual Orange cry—
Olt -- Has
Party were acquitted. The Jury who, with-
hesitation, acquitted the men on the charge of mur7
71, : oun,i
_, u them guilty of a riot—a pretty good proof
a.'" 't was an anomalous verdict. Another murder had
se
' trred since ; another young man had been shot by
h
11,,,k'ty of the same description immediately after the
",cler to which he had alluded. What protection was
ere 't such practices were to be allowed ? What he
tf,°lllaii ied of was, that the Magi: trates did not do
ttti..krru.taiost to suppress ' such meetings. The Magis-
, 'es-toek uo step to repress what he (Mr. O'Connell)
4itteei'Ved to be a- flagrant violation of the law. They ,
abnved arms and ammunition to remain in the hands of
eifotklividaals who had perpetrated this murder. Every
.4i rt ought to have been made to punish those persons.
Me,lvolibl content himself with moving that a return
itidd before the House of the numbers, names, and de-
-alp:
"
'eit lof the persons who had registered arms in the
' • utY of Down.
'lc.ite 3'PEAKER havingput the question,
to 40rd ELIOT said—He hoped be might be permitted
aienake a-few observations on the statement of the Right
-to- i!3•• and Learned Gentleman. It was no light matter
:lir nriltign the verdict of a jury, particularly when the
..tke of a fellow-creatnre was at stake. He (Lord Eliot)
trtight himself bound to say that looking.to the evi-
Ze, to the statement of the Attorney-General, and to
4 ? eliarge• of the Learned Judge at the trial, he was at
titattiodt4: conceive on what ground the prisoners were ac-
ne assured the Right Hon. and Learned Gen-
eieluthaen,lth. at his (Lord Eliot's) Noble Friend at the head
that Irish Government had felt the deepest pain on
-tin, oeoasion, not only with respect to the death of the
iiit'urtiinate man—melancholy as that occurrence was-
-11•Inialso as that occurrence indicated a continuance of
kii ,''' spirit of party warfare and bigotry which
to! Government had hoped was rapidly beginning
it instihside•—(Hear, hoar.) They also felt that.
%J.. 'Led to shake that confidence in the power of
Pre.,,' 'to punish crime which it was so necessary should
4 .4" /4 along all classes of the community. The Right
oie
Gore and Learned Gentleman had done injustice to the
`isi„r,tolleat t. So anxious was his (Lord Eliot's) Noble
tli -,1-11,° that ,the ends of justice should not be frustrated,
ei"t-„de had directed the principal law-officers of the
tiot::4 to proet:ed to' Down to condutl the prosecu-
ill ! aind he (T. or►l Eliot) believed that he was justified
( 34Yin"' thatth'ai Learned 'Gentleman had on that
i..et,,i,. ts .
were " displayed all the skill and knowledge whi.cili
the. ieharaeteriatic of him. He entirely agreed with
i
iet.:s.,,,,tght Hon. andLearnol Gentleman that such meet-
qiizein'te„rAe very reprehensible, He was not sufficiently. ac-
Rkl; 1-1-''' with the law .to know if such meetings were illet-.
that t he,agreeil with the Right Hon. and Learned Gento
the e'r'itZ ought not to be encouraged. With regartcil
t ~)111d , uttered in Court, he did not knowahleow
wereie,y
litter"' Y€) been prevented. As soon as y
L'lrte-,',4,,,_•ti1e Judge interfered, and commanded. silence,
tle'en ';')4cll he (Lord Eliot) declared the cries had notte
l'elieL,-el'eated. He meant no disrespect either to
the
Partc",:l P''rofessed by the Right Hon. Member, or to ,
hadjul,`•°.`ihich he belonged, but he believed that what
.the ti,tglnated the disturbance which had terminated in
''l!„ithilt;rtier of APArdle was a cry raised of " to hell
keat fic`tig William." He (Lord Eliot) said this to show
~ It re were strong party feelings actuating both sides.
; Its ne-„,
'4 a • - ''uNNELL said that the Noble Lord was right
114 3;112g that the cry had been raised by the Catholics.
-424 t,i. -die-b ad- seized. the_ man who raised tlici.cry,
...ut:- him wit of the meeting. The worst of the
wer'e 'natter
was, that t6.e Orangemen in that part of Ireland
Werejt" armed with heavy weapons, while the Catholics
4 (INV"ltted, though how long they would remain so,
L r,- 'Connell" could not say.
to another°l.°LlOT would take that opportunity of alluding
thatthe
1,
1 6, Jury) which had been made, which was,
aka b - was composed entirely of Protestants. It
to ha ee, n said that the law-officers of the Crown oughte
(Loe4,lbjected to the composition of the Jury. He
" ito t 'Lot) believed that the Jury had been impannelled
41m? °.,ther cases, and the next of kin to the deceased
Ivoi4ahue no such objection ; and what, he would ask,
t2atliol.'lica74l3:e
'reitt, ,„ a,ve been said in the south of Ireland, where the)t.
of the people were Catholics, if a Jury (►.
felt that as objected to on the score of ieligion? lie
"inrio.e. • the next (if kin had made no ollection to the
enni., itrion of
the jury, the law-officers of the Crowni
torll
°not with propriety do so. In conclusion, the Nob.°
being gbl,3lEnve..(l that lie would not object to the returns
thy, Mr, silea;
jut HAW said, with -regard to the Constitution of
'Plei,,,,d'e7' he begged to observe, that the Counsel em-
atuil, • 3' the next of kin were gentlemen of Ole highest
PEA r,
at the Irish bar.
Pettek
_,t' ,C,GNNELL begged to say that he had not ityl-
ttreta the composition of the jury.
lion.r,l L 7 LIOT did not impute such a charge to the
been p7adent)--iriab, but an accusation of that nature had
rile si.,e; , ..
eosea,
~ ' -e•PiteEl7 said that as the return was tinop
‘ll aingdrEahaPs the Hod. *ember would not press it as
teotion -, a ent, but woukt :tonsent to his putting the
it 4.
,T t lie (the Speake ) do leave the Chair.
atld'briligeiTlNrwEarArLd would r withdi7tw the. amendment,
as a substantive I.7otwn.
. r„.., , .R
I:CHEWER-BILLS FRAC-ll' ..n
' '14..11A to a question ut b Mr BLEWEI .i,. .
that ' 4ICCELLO P y *
thte Exe,_ It of the EXCHEQUER dated
nequer-bills Fraud Bill would be read a

second time this evening, but that the discussion upon the
subject should be posponed until Thursday evening next.

SUP PIAr::ARMY ESTIMATES.
The House having resolved itself into a Committee of
Supply,
Sir HENRY HARDINGE rose to bring forward the
Ariny Estimates. He said the total number of men for
which he proposed to take the estimates this year, was
122,568 ; that number was composed of 5,808 officers,
8,674 non-commissioned officers, and 108,086. rank and
file. Last year the numbers were 121,121, therefore as
compared to the past year, there was now an addition
of 1,447 ; the Canadian regiment which were 1,100, the
St. Helena company 330 men, the augmentation to the
3d West India Regiment 330. There was a deduction
of about 600 men from that, which would leave the
number for the present year about 400 more than they
were last year. The Royal Canadian regiment had been
composed last year of ten companies, made up from the
regiments then in Canada ' • the men volunteered, and
every man of them had been 15 years in the service.
There was to be an addition to the 3d West India regi-
ment. The Ist and. 2d West India regiments now
consisted of 10 companies, and 1,000 men ; whereas the
3d regiment consisted only of 8 companies, which, were
now to be raised to 10 companies, consisting of 1,000
men. Each of the three regiments were to contri-
bute to send a detachment to the western coast of Africa;
and it was proposed for this reason, that the officers of
these three corps should be augmented by two supernu-
meraries. But, as officers in that service were liable to
have their health impaired, it was agreed, by the:Secre-
tary for the Colonies, the Commander-in-Chief, and the
other authorities, that, after they had served a certain
period, they should, on their return to this country, be
allowed a year's furlough to enable them to recruit their
health. It was proposed that two of those
battalions—if that number were sufficient should
be stationed in the Island of Jamaica.
He had next to draw attention to the 20th page of the
Estimates, in which was a memorandum, stating that it
was intended to convert six depots into six second bat-
talions of the same strength as six service companies.
'rho force of the army was now 122,000 men, being
20,000 more than it was six years ago. Since 1830 the
numbers had been -several times raised and reduced,
thich proved the pliability of the system, while the
number of officers remained the same. But the pressure
on the troops of the line had been very severe during
the last four years, and it was absolutely necessary that
it should be removed. We had twenty-eight battalions
in New South Wales, India, and China ; altogether we
had seventy-eight battalions abroad, and only twenty-
five battalions at home—a force that could not possibly
relieve the former to the extent the term of their ser-,
vices required. Forty-two of those battalions were in
tropical climates. At the time' of the insurrection we
had but nine battalions in North America ; they were
afterwards increased to nineteen, exclusive of some
home-raised battalions. But in his plan of increasing
each depot by making six of them consist of six
service companies of 100 men each, these would
answer to be sent to six healthy station; such
as Gibraltar, Bermuda, and stations in the Mediterra-
nean, where they would do the duty as well as second
battalions, and enable the authorities ashore to relieve
those regiments that had been left abroad too long. So
then, instead of having 25 battalions ashore, we should
have:3l, and, in the event of any sudden demand on the
Government in other quarters, six battalions would be
found ashore quite ready, The depots would be an ad-
ditional expense of 9,000/., the first year, but in future, it
would be about 3,000/. a year. But to meet an expense
of 63,0001. arising from some charges already adverted
to, he proposed to reduce six men each from 50 other
battalions not employed either in the East Indies or in
North America. This would be a reduction of 3,000
men, and of 61,0001. The estimate for 95,600 men was
3,510,7741., being 70,8001. more than that of last year.
The greater part of this expense would be on account of
certain changes in the West Indies, but some would be
on account of the St. Helena corps. On the 'hole, there
would be an increase of about 120,000/, but there would
be to meet this, a reduction of 49,000/., of which 33,000/.
would be on account of provisions for the troops in Aus-
tralia and Canada, where the return to agriculture had
cheapened food. There was a slight increase on the
good conduct pension, the recipients being now 4,648
men ; but there were also 7,000 having mark,
for good conduct who had also increased pay.
The next vote was 20.0001. for libraries at home and
abroad ; these libraries he stated had given the greatest
satisfaction. The entire vote for the land force was,
therefore, 3,581,5751. The Military College involved an
expenditure of 17,000/. a year, but this did not fall on
the public, as it was sustained by the friends of the ca-
dets who were sent there. A small expense, however,
of 575/. had been incurred for some additional buildings
that had been found necessary. Tne total vote for the
effective service, therefore, including the school of the
Military Asylum, and the expense of the volunteer carps,
was 3,928,961/. The next votes related to the non-effec
tive service, in which the item of the pay of general officers
was 98,0001., an increase of 13,000/. occasioned by the pro-
motion. Pay for retired officers 66,000/.,being a decr,ase of
15,000/. ; for half-pay, 470,0001., being a decrease of
25 000/. 'Within the last twenty years the number of
offic2.rs on the-half-pay list had considerably diminished,
and there were now upwards of 3,000 on half-pay,
a large proportion of whom would be no more fit for ser-
vice. The decrease in the number of officers, since the
Peace, was 6,745, and the decrease in charge 618,030/.
The foreign half-pay this year was estimated at 5ii,030/.,
bailie-9 a decrease on last year of 2,1751. The widows'
pension fund this year would require 141,000/ For pen-
sioners, at Chelsea and elsewhere, 1,251,1141., being a
decrease of 7,492/. The decrease in the number of re-
gular pensions since the year 1829 was 17,0001., and the
decrease in expenSe was 107,0001. 1000/. had been ,
taken for last year, in order to make another ar-
rangement for the number of the p:mrsioners. The
grant they required for the superannuated list
was 41,0001., being a decrease: of • 2,003/. The whole
charge for the non-effective serviceiwas 264,000/, being 38,00(.1
li-ss than last year ; and the whole charge for the effective ser-
vice was 3,963,000/. The total grant required was 6,193,0001.,
being an increase on the grant of last year of 34,8291. He hardly
knew whether any further explanation would he expected from
him. With the best intention to carry on the military affairs of
this nation with the strictest regard to economy, he trnsted the
House would agree with him, that efficit.ncy was tee best economy.
He hal now to move that the land forces be increased to
95,628 men. In the course of the present year a number of
battalions would return to this country, so that by the end of
the year the number of battalions here would be 32 in)tead of
25, as at present.
Lord HOWICK, who spoke in an unusually low and indis-
tinct tone, said that he had no objection to the vote whic.. had
just been put into the hands of the Speaker, and all that he
would take the liberty of doing was to make a few
observations on one or two points in the speech of
the Right Honourable and Gallant Gentleman. With
respect to the augmentation to be made in the West
India regiments, he heard the statements of the Right Hon.
and Gallant Officer with great pleasure. No person could
doubt the policy of increasing those corps, and preventing
thereby the great mortality that ensued among the men. He
hoped the state of the barracks in the West Indies would be
also improved. The Right Hon. Gentleman knew to what he
alluded, and the frightful sufferings that ensued from the state
of the barracks. The Right Hon. and Gallant Officer had
said that efficiency was in these things true economy. He
(Lord H.) perfectly agreed with him, and he helieveil there
was no greater extravagance than to allow British soldiers to
remain for thirty-five years in such a climate as the West
India Islands. The Noble Lord then referred to the proposed
measure of the Gallant Officer (Sir H. Hardinge with regard
to the advantage of an increase of six regiments, but in so low
a tone that we could not catch the preci,e import of his
opinion We understood him to say that lie thought the
matter might be better left to the Executije, and that he did
not agree to the arrangernents made with respect to the Colonels.
He confessed that it appeared to him that the arrangement
made by the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite was for the
purpose of keeping up a system which he believed in prac•
tics was liable to great inconvenience. Twe battalions were
to be sent to certain healthy garrisons. Now he thought that
all regiments ought to take their equal propertions of good .
and bad climates. He thought that great relief would be
given to the line, if, instead of the arrangement proposed by
the Right lion. Gentleman, the one he proposed some time
ago hid beat carried into effect. The Right Hon. Gentleman
stated that-a number of libraries had already been esta-
blished, and also that the soldiers were ready to avail them-
selves of the opportunity of self-instruction thui offered to
them. This was undoubtedly a subject of congratulation.
Upon the whole he felt that the vote which the Right Rm.
Gentleman demanded was one which, under the circtriesatr. an)ces,
the House should have no hesitation in granting:—
(
Lord ARTHUR LENNOX was glad the Right Hon.
Gentleman had announced his intention of making an increase
in the Army; and he only regretted that that increase was not
larger. Looking to the state of our relations with China and
India, and to the unfortunate feeling of jealousy which existed
towards, this country—looking across the Atlantic, and to the
frightful sources of misunderstanding: between the United
States and this country, he was afraid they would not long
enjoy the blessings of peace. He did not think either that the
forces could now be relieved as often as was desirable. There
was another subject to which he wished to allude, and one of
the greatest importance to the Army—he meant the retiring
pensions to the-soldiers. He did not think that, after 25 years'
service, a miserable pittance of 6d. a day was a sufficient
compensatipn for the labours and perils of such a service.
He would call the attention of the Committee to the fact that
these men were for the most part totally unable to obtain their
own livelihood, being for the most part broken in constitution.
For his own part, he should ever feel it his duty, as long as he
had a seat in that House, to raise his humble voice in favour of
the old soldiers in the army. There was one question which he
wished to put to the Right Hon. and Gallant Officer opposite.
It was with respect to the accoutrements to be supplied to the
six depots. He wished to know what was to be done with those
accoutrements when the depots were reduced. He would sug-
gest before he sat down, the prepriety of adding one penny a
day to the pay of lance-corporals, and 3d. a day to that of lance-
serjeants, for their additional stripes. He thought that would
be an admirable adjunct to the good conduct regulations.
Mr. MACAULAY said the Hon. and Gallant Officer's
estimate was so unexceptionable, that he would address the
House as shortly as possible. He desired, however, to have
some explanation with respect to the prorostul remunerati -n
to six colonels of infantry. The report stated that 1,0001.
a year was a sufficient allowance. He wished, therefore, to be
informed why it was proposed to add 250/ a year in the case
in question. With respect to the Canadian plan, he (Mr. Ma-
caulay) should say that there was a much better chance of suc-
cess by the proposed plan than if the Right Hon. Gentleman
had half soldiers and half cultivators. He had scarcely anything
further to say, except that he wished to a'k the Right Hon.
Gentleman a question with respect to the Lunatic Asylum at
Chatham, which was in a disgraceful state—in an absolutely
shocking condition. It would also Le a great satisraction to
know whether the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir H. Ilardinge)
had taken any means of reorganizing the Chelsea pensioners
Sir HENRY HARDINGE said the subject of the Lunatic
Asylum at Chatham had not escaped his notice ; and with
respect to the Chelsea pensioners, he was sorry to say that the
state of that Institution was such as to render an entire
change of its constitution necessary as soo's as possible. He
hoped that the number of men in the East Indies
and North America would in a short time diminish
under circumstances of more tranquil times. With
regard to the hint thrown out by the Noble Lord oppo-
site (Lord Howick) as to his plan of depots, he (Sir Henry
Ihirdinge) must observe, that he had seen the whole of the
Noble Lord's arrangements, and he did not think that the
Noble j,cird's dppt would be so effective as his (Sir H. liar-
dines) would, 'hg DPke of Wellington concurred in th,it
opinion also. He (Sir H. Hardtop) was not aware that he
had any further remark to make on the statement
of i.%:fe Ole Lord, excepting one assertion of his

respecting barracks in the West Indies, which the
Noble Lord stated to be in a most disgraceful state.
When, in 1840, Lord Vivian was Master-General of the Ord-
nance, a motion had been made for the production of papers on
this subject,:he (Sir H. Hardinge) asked whether there was
any foundation for the disgraceful state hi which the barracks
in the West Indies were described to be. The Master-General
assured the House that the barracks in the West Indies were
in an admirable state. In the following year (1841) the
Master-General was placed in the Upper House, and he thought
the Noble Lord ought to have avoided such a remark in Lord
Vi7ian's absence. All the reports he had heard of these bar-
raeks gave a description of them diametrically the- reverse of
that of the Noble Lord. In reply to the observations of the
Noble Lord (A. Lennox) behind him, he stated that the batta-
lions would be disposed of and managed, as regarded their
accoutrements, as heretofore.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL remarked, with respect to the
plan of depots, that the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman ap-
peared totally to have abandoned the plan of depot companies.
He gave up the advantage of a certain number of places at
home where recrui's might be received, and a certain propor-
tion of officers retained. He did not wish to enter into any
controversy as to the plan of the Hon. and Gallant Member,
who was fully competent to consider a question of this kind;
his long experience in military affairs, and in the civil direction
of matters of this nature, fully entitled him to great con-
sideration when he brought forward a plan which he
thought best under present circumstances. Considering
the last explanation made by the Right Honourable Gen-
tleman, and the circumstances of the case, he thought the
present plan was most wise. If a general plan en general
grounds were proposed, he might alter his views, but in the
present instance he did not wish to say he had a different
opinion from the Right Hon. and Gallant Officer. He was
glad to hear that there were to be only two battalions in
Jamaica, and that there was to be a p.trmanent barracks. No-
thing, in his opinion, was more advantageous than that the
troops in the West Indies should be placed in as healthy situa-
tions as were consistent with the defence of those islands.
Some correspondence had taken place between the Ordnance
Department and the Secretary of State with respect to the
barracks in Barbadoes ; but he would allude to the stipject
when the Ordnance Estimates came before the House.

Sir H. HARDINGE defended the system of depots he
proposed, and adduced the authority of the Duke of Welling-
ton, who assigned, as one of his reasons, that in case of emer-
gency they could be raised into battalions.
Lord HOWICK considered the present system was, as far
as the West Indies were concerned, an abandonment of the
depot system.
Mr. WILLIAMS asked the Secretary at War if the ex-
penses attending the army in China were included in the Es-
timates?

Sir HENRY HARDINGE said that no part of the ex-
penses of the Chinese Expedition was included in the Esti-
mat,s. The expenses of that expedition would Nava LI be
settled between the East India Company and the Government,
and would be provided for under the bead of Army Extraor-
dinaries.

Mr. VILLIAMS was not surprised at the agreement in
opinion between the present and the late Secretary at War
and the Noble Lord the Member for London, seeing that there
was no great difference between the Army Estimates this year
and the last. He thought the expenses of the army in China ought
to have been included in these estimates. He protested against
the plan of voting these estimates before they had considered
the ways and means, and thought it would have been a pre-
ferable plan for the Right Hon. Baronet, at the head of the
Government, to have matte his financial statement before these
estimates had been voted. The great charge against the late
Government was that they had expended a much larger sum
than the amount of the revenue. It was true that Government
had done so, and the late Chancellor of the Exchequer had
proposed an addition of 10 per cent. to the taxation, to make
good the deficiency. What was the result? Why, it was found
that the people would pay no more taxes, and the consequence
was that instead of realising two mallet-is and a half.
there was a considerable falling off of the revenue after
these taxes were added. He thought the House
ought to kow how those monies were to be
raised. The revenue was short last year, and all the votes
required were larger than in the previous year. The fore s
this year were larger than they had been any year since 1817 ;
now such being the case, he should like to know what there
was in the present position of the country to require a larger
military force than was required during 'the last twenty-four
years? The Hon. Gentleman oppasite bad spoken of the re-
lations of this country with America and France. Now, for
his own part, he saw nothing in those relations, if properly
managed, that was calculated to lead to hostilities. In
1522 the number of the military force was 30,000 less than
that proposed for the present year. There was nothing, in his
opinion, to warrant the large increase in the army in the pre-
Ant year, as compared with other periods. He should, there
fore, propose that the number of men for the home service
should be reduced by 11,000, so that the estimates under this
head should be placed on the same footing as in the
year 1837. If any of the timber of men proposed for
he home service were destined for the war in China,
he might not now have proposed such a reduction ; but he hail
distinctly understood that such was not the intention of the
Right Hon. Gentleman.—(" No, no.") Ile understood tha
such was the case. He submitted, however, that as we hat'
unfortunately entered into the Chinese war it should be carried
on with vigour, as the most likely means to bring it to a speedy
termination. Now, after 21 years, t- e amount of half-pay was
nearly the same. At the former period, it was 2,264,1341 , now
it was but 5,000!. less he meant for the retired allowances al-
together. The officers on effecctive service were 5,808; there
e ere 385 retired on full pay ; 504 foreign officers, exclusive of
those the number of officers on half-pay was 5,118 ; what ne-
ce.sity was there for so large a number on half-pay? The nutre
her of Captains on full-pay was 1,347 ;on half-pay 1,1-87 ;of
lieutenants on full-pay, 1866; on half-pay 1461, of whom he
was sure a large number would be very glad to be put on ful'
service; but they had no parliamentary influence to get them
on.—(" Oh.") He knew, this was the reason.—(" Oh.")
He thought the number of general officers too large, and there
had Ist •ly been a promotion. There were 452 general officers,
;hat was b.ur general officers to every regiment of the line ;
ha should l,ke to knew what necessity there was for this nuns-
tier. The Army of the United States consisted only of 12,000
men, but they had only three officers. He thought the allow-
ance for pene.ens, and allowances to widows was very large.
I t appeared that there were 2,950 widows receiving p nsions;
ehether they were bestowed on representations made of some
services performed by the deceased officer, or whether granted
to the widow of every officer of a certain rank, he did not
know, and should like to be informed. The sum granted for
pension eas 371,00 e/. ; it of course held out an excellent op-
portunity for old military gentlemen to get young wives, but it
was very hard for the country to be called upon to pay such
a sum as this. It might be unpleasant to the many military
geneemen in the House, to hear such remarks, but in the pre_
s, ut dilapidated state of the finances, he thought it his duty to
state them. The whole amount of the half-pay was 2,264,0001.
and there was a deficiency in the revenue of nearly three
millions; how it was to be raised he knew not. There trigEt
be a great reduc'ion in this branch without injury to the
public service. In the French army there was no such thing,
and the consequence was, that officers of high rank were
obliged to turn their attention to other means of support.
The three regiments of Horse Guards, commonly called House-
hold Troops, consisted of 1,308 men, and they cost the country
85,000/. The pay of these three regiments was 24,100/. more
than the pay of any three regiments of cavalry, consisting of an
equal number of men. The three regimenta of Goot Guards
consisted of 5,287 men, and they received 39,5181 a-year.
being 16,918/. more than was received by any
three , regiments of the line, consisting of an
equal number of men. He could see no reason why the regi-
ments of Hoge and Foot Guards should be better paid than
other cavalry and infantry regiments, for their duties, so far
from bring more onerous, were much lighter than Those de-
volving on regiments of the line. He should, therefore, mov,
that the second vote in the estimates be reduced by 16.918/.,
being the amount of the difference between the pay of the re-
giments of the guards and the cavalry and regiments of the line.
With regard to the Horse Guards, ke believed they did not
servo except in Belgium:—(Cries of " Spain.") -Thet was
before.—(Laughter.) At all events, the regiments of the line
were moved about, and the s fficers of those regiments were sub-
ject, in consequence, to great additional expense. The pay of-
Colonels in the Horse Gaurds was 1,8001. a-year, while the pay
of Colonels of regiments of the line was only 9001 Colonels
of the Foot Guarcs had 1,200/., while Colonels of infantry regi--
ments of the line had only 6001., and there were 35 with only
500/. The disproportion between Lieutenant-Colonels was
also great. The pay of the soldiers of the Horse Guards was
s. 111,y, that of regiments of the line Is. 3d. ; the pay of the
Foot Guards is ls. Id., that of the regiments of the line Is.
But the cost in the maintenance was equally disproportionate.
The cost, for the Horse Guard is 68/., whielrie-21/. more than
was staid to the cavalry soldier in the regiments of the line.
There was another vote to which he had decided objection,
and with respect to which he should divide the House, he al-
luded to the charge for the Yeomanry Cavalry ; he could see
no necessity for that, and therefore he should vote against it.
He wished to know whether any part of the 95,000 men were in-
tended for China, because if they were not, he should move that
11,000 should be struck off 'the proposed number.
Sir H. DOUGLAS was not at all surprised at the mild
tone taken by Hon. Gentlemen opposite, because he was sure
they must be sensible that the course elected by his Right
Hon. and. Gallant Friend to meet the present exigencies, ought
to have been adapted len&ago, by those who were at the time in,
power. Such a course ought to haile beeri pursued at the
sCtrheinngetshe owf• a rt,h
ea nßd r
ihties oaur
ml dy shaayd that e fro
br
eienna ns
such
tithe of the rebellion in Canada. He would now come to the
h
eaals'stopaesntabtolee
the Commanders to perform the services required of them, and
the force now was totally inefficient. With regard to the war
in Affehanistan,he was of opinion that it was the insufficiency
of forces which compelled the military officers there to act in such
a manner as they would not otherwise have done ; and he
charged those who did not then increase the forces, that they
had forced officers who knew their duty, and who knew it well,
to deviate from the rules of warfare, and to (lb that which
they knew not to be safe. He therefore congratulated the
Secretary of War for what he had now done ; but he (Sir 11.
Douglas) thought that the measures now proposed should
have been taken long before. He should make no more obser-
vations on this point. He should now touch on what had been
said relative to the means of improving the character and
comfort of the British soldiers ; and here he must congratulate
the Hon. Member for Sunderland, the late Secretary of War,
inasmuch as not one request which he (Sir H. D.) had made,
to that Noble Lord relative to the improvement of the soldier
was neglected by him. When he (Sir H. D. ) was Governor-
General of the lonian Islands, there was only one chaplain in
the whole force, and he had seen soldiers dying in the hos-
pitalspraying in vain for spiritual relief. He had represented
this to that Noble Lord, who had added another chaplain to the
service ; he then asked for four Roman-Catholic Chaplains,
and the Noble Lord sent them three. He (Sir H. D.) was of
opinion that means ought to be taken to icstruct the soldier.
He had always observed that the man who took to his books
made the better soldier. He was also of • opinion that
some system should be introduced and established in
every regiment to enable the soldier to save his money.
He had introduced a savings' bank in his own
regiment (the 52d Light Infantry), and in a very shot t time
there was 500/. deposited in it. The Regiment, however,
was soon after broken up, and that money was returned to the
soldiers e but he regretted to say that many irregularities
were the consequence of the money being returned, and in
some instances he was sorry to say that Courts-Martial had to
be held. He was sure that the Hon. and Gallant Member
for Marslebone, who so eloquently depicted last evening the
effects of the want of a full complement in his service, would
feel the necessity of a full complement in the army. But he
did not think that if a French fleet had come upon the Eng-
lish fleet, they (the English fleet) would have been beaten,
He thought the Hon. Member's practice would go against his
words, and that the gallant men on board the Powerful would
not have given way before a French fleet.
Sir C. NAPIER said he did not wish it to go forth to the
country, or to be generally understood that the British navy
would not have done their duty, and have done it well, if they
got into action with the enemy ; kut he did maintain,
and he would tell the House and the country, that he
conscientiously believed that if the British navy had
come into contact with the French after they Lad begun
their opera, ions in Syria and got sickly, though they would
have done their duty to the utmost of their power, they would
have been beaten.—e Hear.) Hon. Gentlemen should not
attempt to depreciate their enemies. He would re-
mind the House of what took place in America.
when they held the Americans in contempt, and sent iver an
ill- manned navy (they had a civilian for the First Lord of the
Admiralty then) and the British flag was tarnished.
Sir THOMAS TROUBRIDGE ;said he could not concur
in the ors Men that if the British sleet had been Attacked in