The Sun.
London, England, 1820-05-17 00:00:00

FREE TRADE.

Mr. FINLAY trusted, that in presenting a Peti-
tion from the Chamber of Commerce or the City
of Glasgow, praying for a Free Trade, the House
would allow him to make a few observations On
the subject. The petitioners conceived that the
present state of trade was greatly affected by the
existing restrictions, and that their existence
ought not to be made dependant on any relaxatiou
of those subsisting in other States. The restrictions
of which they complaiued had neither been esta.
blistied by the present Administration, nor by
their immediate predecessors ; but he must ob-
serve, at the same time, that when opportunities
had offered themselves to throw the trade open,
they had not been embraced. In the recent ar-
rangements which had taken place between Go-
vernment and the East India Company, our trade
in the East had been placed on a footing full of
restrictions, whilst the Atnericao - merchant,
being under no such restrictions beyond the
Cape of Good Hope, possessed very con-
siderable advantages over the
.Brwsh trader.—
It' would, in fact, have been impossible for
the United States themselves CO have esta-
blished regulations better calculated
in-
crease their trade, and to repress ours, than those
which now existed in this country. This he
would illustrate in a few words. Ssippose that
an American and an English merchant, both
resident in London, should receive at the
saute time intelligence of some change in India
likely to create a great demand for some particu-
lar-article. In such cases, secresy• and tiispaich
were the two chief ingredients of success. The
American would instantly embark the goods which
he thought most likely to find a market, iu a ves-
sel of 150 or 200 tons, which would be sufficient
for the undertaking, anti in less than avnionth the
whole operation would be effected. What would
be the case with the English merchant ? He would
first- have to consult Counsel, to know what he
bad a right to do. He must then apply to the
East India Company for a licence for the ship,
and, as they. never gave any for supercargoes, he
must. address himself to the Board of Controul.
He must then wait a whole month, and being at
last informed that be can ,have a licence, might
begin to load his ship by the time that the
American set sail, In two months he might„be in
allittlatioll to undertake the voyage, but even then
he could not do it with a vessel proportioned to
the enterprise ; he must employ one of 350 tons,
awl would be thus at double the expense incurred
by the American, besides his difficulties and loss
of time. Notwithstanding the arrangement con-
cluded, he (Mr. Finlay) conceived that there were
many points not given up to the last-India Com-
pany, especially as far as the circuitous trade was
concerned, in which it was passible for Parliament
to interfere, and open the trade without trenching
on the privileges of that Company. lie knew
that a free trade was represented as a fair
theory, which could not be reduced into prac-
tice. But the principle was so important that
be was surprized the Government had not
taken it into consideration, and had not car-
ried it as far as it could possibly be done. The true
principle on which our system had originally been
established was, that we should have the means
of bringing into this country, anti of carrying to
others, as many commodities as could be respec-
tively consumed ; so that we should be able to
supply Holland with the produce of France, as
nearly as possible at the same rate as France could
do it herself. He then adverted to the propriety
of inquiring into the use made of Extents in Aid.
He believed also that the Usury Laws were a
greater restraint on the proper employtnent of
capital than was imposed by any other system of
legislation, and trusted that before many years all
restrictions on that subject would be removed. He
regretted that the President of the Board of Trade
was not present, as he wished to throw out what
he conceived would be a fair experimenvol
the advantages of a free trade. Ile meant the

removal of all restrictions on a few articles; He
thought this would be•attended with considerable
benefit ; it would be opening the ;loon to the
establishment of a better system, which might be
introduced by degrees, and would hold out an en-
couraging example to other nations. He then took a
view of the situation of France and America,and
of
the facilities which those countries possessed to
recover front their difficulties. He did not ex-
pect that England could - he replaced in the situa-
tion which it enjoyed some years ago, but. he
thought that , not k% ithstanding the pressure of her
taxes, it was still possible for her trade to rise
above its difficulties, and to attain a high state Of
improvement. He then moved that the Petition
be brought up.
Mr. BARING followed the Honourable Member
through some of his observations. We had so
many active competitors in foreign States, that it
was necessary we should increase in diligence to
sustain or res-tore our trade. He did not despair
of the country being able to maintain her situa-
tion, and to enjoy a reasonable degree of trade
and commerce. In cheapness of labour we could
not expect to beat our antagonists, but we had
the advantage in point of capital and materials.
This advantage must, however, in course of time
be lost to us, and nothing but the most indefa-
tigable diligence could delay that period. He had
that morning had the satisfaction of attending a
numerous meeting of ship-owners of the City of
London, assembled in consequence of the late
Petition presented to that House. .Whilst going
with them over several points which he -had ar-
gued on that occasion, he had found that they
agreed on every point except with respect to the
Timber trade. They had no objection to the
trade of all Europe being thrown open. He had
experienced. what was generally the case, that
when people came to fair explanation, they disco-
vered that there was but little difference in their
sentiments. He trusted that the country at large
would. reap considerable good from the liberal
opinions which began to prevail.
The Petition was then read, laid on the table,
and ordered to be printed.

CORN BILL.
Mr. BROUGHAM presented a Petition from the OWners
and Occupiers of Land in the several parishes in the county
of Sussex, complaining of the great distress which they sus-
tained by the immense importation of foreign corn, and sub-
mitting to the wisdom of the House for such relief as it would
think fit to grant. He should not pledge himself to support
the prayer of the Petition as far as it went to demand the re 7
peal of the present Corn Bill, and the imposition of a gene-
ral duty on all foreign corns ; but he should be disposed to
consider the subject of the averages, with a view, not to
raise the importation price, hut to ascertain the manner in
which those averages were taken; for it was stated that the
mode in which they were now made, reduced them far below
the importation price fixed some years since by Parliament.
He therefore considered the question a fair subject for in-
quiry.—The Petition was then read and laid on the table.
'Lord MILTON presented- a Petition front certain Owners
and Occupiers of Land in Yorkshire, complaining of Agri.
cultural distress.—Laid on the table, and ordered to be
printed.
Lord MILTON then, after a short conversation with Lord
Castlereagh, fixed his motion, for the Repeal of the Wool
Duty, to Friday seinnight.
CATHOLIC QUESTION.
- - - -

Sir H. P.ARNELI, stated, that as it was not probable that
his Right Honourable Friend (Mr. Grattan) would be able
to bring on his motion respecting the Catholics ou the day
fiXed'in his former notice, he had received instructions from
Ireland to withdraw that notice altogether. A meeting of
Catholics was to be held in that country, after which he ex-
pected to receive some communication which would enable
this important question to be brought on before the end of
the present session.

BRITISH MUSEUM.
Mr. BANKES presented a Petition from the Trustees of the
British Museum, praying that the House would be pleased to
grant them the usual annual sum for the support of that esta-
blishment.—Laid on the table.
Mr. BANKES theu moved, that the annual accounts of the
British. Museum, for the year 1819, and the estimate of the
expenditure for 1820, and the sums necessary to discharge
the same, be laid before the Honse.—Ordered.
Mr. KEITH, from the British Museum, then presented the
said accounts, which were ordered to lie on the table, and to
be• printed. .
Mr. ELLICE presented a petition from the Woollen Manu-
facturers of the town of Boyne, in Scotland, praying relief
generally from the restrictions imposed upon the .trade of
this country. This was,the first time he had to present a pe-
tition of this kind front a particular body of manufacturers,
and he was convinced that the repeal of all restrictions upon
trade could alone restore its prosperity. The petition was
read and laid on the table. • . •

MILITAtty ESTABLISHMENT.
Colonel DAVIS rose to direct the attention of
the, House to a subject, always of importance,
but particularly so at a time when distress pressed
heavily on all classes of the community. He
threw himself on the. indulgence of the-House,
and greatly needed it whilst undertaking to bring
the military establishment-of the country bnfore
its view. He felt, indeed-, that he laboured under
a particular difficulty '''''''''''''''' events hall
created so much alarm, that many Aiembers, if
not.the majority of the House, however friendly
to the principle of economy, might perhaps be
disposed to resist a motion which they might con-
sider as tending to diminish the means of -main-
taining public tranquillity. As his sole object,
however, was inquiry, he trusted that be should
be supported in promoting that which could do
no mischief, and might possibly be attended with
some benefit. Whatever appearance the difficul-
ties of the country might assume, whether they
took the shape of agricultural or commercial dis-
tress, their foundation was wasteful expenditure.
It was this conviction which had induced him to
look at the military establishment. He had de-
voted much attention to it, and the more he had
investigated, the more he had ascertained that the
most extravagant want of economy pervaded every
branch', and that a Parliamentary Inquiry was re-
quired. As the assertions which be should make
this night would probably be met by, counter-as-
sertions by the Noble Lord opposite, the only way
for the House to come to a just conclusion would
be to appoint a Select Committee, to inquire and
report on the subject. He knew be should be told
that the Committee of Financehad taken the Army
Estimates into consideration ; but the subject
was so important, that without wishing to dis-
parage the merits of that Committee, he did not
think it possible, when they had such a multipli-
city of objects to investigate, that they should be
able to enter sufficiently into the question of the
military establishment. This appeared to be the
more evident as no alteration had yet taken place
in the system in consequence of any recommenda-
tion from that Committee. The persons appointrd
to carry retrenchment and improvements into
effect ought not to be his 11,10jesty',3 Ministers ; for
as their influence was extended by the former
state of things, it was not to be expected that they
I should be disposed to adopt measures calculated

to curtail it.: This was clearly exemplified by tits
breathless haste with w,hich they had lately filled
up the vacant office of Governor of Gibraltar, the
most complete sinecure to be found in the list of
sine cures. So much so indeed, that a former
Committee had recommended its abolition. But
scarcely lead the illustrious person who filled it
breathed his last, than the same messenger who
carried the tidings of his death, conveyed-the
ippointment of Lord Chatham as his success
mr, whose military character was filled
up in the statement that he bad been Com-
mander of the ‘Valcheren expedition ! He should
now point out the particular departments where
he conceived economy might he introduced, and
should conclude by moving that a Select Cott=
mittee be appointed to inquire into the Military
Establishment of the Country. The amount of
our military force in 1787, exclusive of the army
in India, was 41,921 men. In 1820, it consisted
of 92,224, or more than double what it was at the
former period. In 1819 the expenditure of the
army had been 6,582,0001. a sum. which the esti-
mate for the present year exceeded by no less than
400,0001. What, he would ask, was tbere'iti the
situation of the country to authorise this increase
of expenditure ? He admitted that the feeling of
the House might be in favour of retaining the
present amount of our force, and therefore he
should not embrace in his proposition this night
the question of numbers. But Gentlemen must
be aware that the same cause which had required
an increase of the army, also required reduction
of our expenditure.—(Hear !)—Where the Chaise
cellor of the Exchequer had last year-proposed to
add three millions to our taxes, he bed also called
upon Parliament to declare by a solemn resolu•
lion, that it was necessary there should be an
overplus of five millions. Now, he wished to
know, was such an overplus iu existence ?
Had not the new taxes proved inefficient t
How then was that overplus of five millions, pro-
nounced by the resolution to be so necessary, to
be procured, except by retrenchment wherever it
could be effected ? For he could not supposte
that his Majesty's Ministers intended to propose
any new taxes. It was with that view, therefore,
and not from any party feeling, that he brought
forward the present motion. He should not urge
the question of numbers, though it was his own
opinion that the tranquillity of the country might
have been preserved without augmenting the
army. The House would be aware that it was
in Scotland that the most determined and active
spirit of discontent l.rol displayed itself, and
broken out into dangerous acts. The military
force in that country had never exceeded 10,000
Men ; and yet that small force had been enabled
to restore tranquillity, wilt the assistance of the
inhabitants, who had enrolled them "Ives and
taken arms in.their own defence. The Yeomanry
in Scotlais,d amounted to 3700 men, whilst in
Lancashire, the population of which was :qua! to
that of the disturbed counties in Scotland, it con-
sisted of only 554 men. In Scotland there were
four thousand volunteers ; in Lancashire goat, si
man. If the people of England had ctinielor-
ward as those of Scotland had done, there
would have been no necessity for augmeutiog
the army. and the public expenditure; • There
was a great superabundance of cavalry, and
they were quartered in districts where they
were not wanted. What occasion was there for a
Regiment of Cavalry on the coast of Kent and
of Essex ? He should be told perhaps that they
were wanted to repress smugglers. But he could
tell the 'House that they had nothing to do wids
smugglirs, for whose repression a large naval
force had been provided. In face, if be should
propose a reduction to the amount of three regi'
ments of cavalry, it would not he too much. But
this was not at present his intention. In every
cavalry regiment there were 15 dismounted ,nets
to each troop. This Ministers called a great piece
of economy, but he called it a great piece of ex•
travagance, for those men were of no use what-
ever, being neither cavalry nor infantry. He cone
ceived, therefore, that a reduction might be tuad
C
in each regiment of 46 dismounted men, elle
Major, two Captains, two Lieutenants, and two
Cornets, and the yearly saving on that single
branch would be nearly 80.0001., whilst the cat!'
valry would remain on as efficient a footing as
it
was now, for not a single effective man would be
reduced. Two Majors had been nukuown in 014
army till 1796, when the activity of the war hod
led to their creation. The same plea could not
now be urged, and therefore the teductioe of one
Major would be no detriment to the service. 1-1°
was aware that he might be represented as speak'
ing against his own profession, and indeed he
knew that if Isis object were attained, it would
injure many worthy men, and amongst then)
some of his friends, but he was actuated- by
tt
sense of public duty which imperiously command'
ed him to subdue private feelings. If his sugges'
lion were adopted, each regiment would still con'
slat of six troops of 53 men, with an establish'
meta of three Officers to each troop, which tbe
Noble Lord would certainly not maintain was totj
few. As to the WaggonCOrpe, he saw no utilit9.
whatever in keeping them. They were t mployet;
during the war in carrying the wounded men an°,
the baggage of the cavalry. These regiments 01
cavalry made frequent marches, but now they di°
not change their quarters more than once a year;
and their baggage might be conveyed at a cheapele
rate. In that manner, and by the reduction of th
Waggon Corps, 10,0001. a year might be saved'
the country. He proposed to consolidate the
fantry on the same plan which he had recommen°,
ed with respect to the cavalry, and this he
ed would give a saving of between 60 and 70,00 e
per annum, without making that arm of our f(ircif
less efficient. He next came to the Infantry St°,4
Corps ; two companies belonging to it, he nog%
be told, were now employed in Canada or sorci)
where in North America in cutting a canal.
500 f
works might be superintended by the engineers
e,
the army, and on that account it could not be °he
cessary that a most expensive corps should be
kept up. Though that portion of our force! o,
was ready to admit, was most useful in the r'',oo
but that he thought, was not a sufficient reaL:9s,
for keeping it up now that it had become atse'!
An alteration might now be made—the numbe:ct,
Officers .reduced, and a considerable saving;
ed, while our force remained folly as efficient.:z
at the piesent moment. The mode of conduc"

the Recruiting Service, be thought, might lie ad.
vantageously altered. He wished Recruiting
Parties to receive their pay and allowances from
the Paymaster of the Regiment while they were
away from the regiment, instead of from the Pay-
'nester of the District• This, he thought, would
Simplify the accounts, and if it did not do good by
relieving them from their present intricacy, still
the measure would be desirable on the score of
economy. Before the year 1795, such recruiting
essablishenents as at present existed were unknown.
TheSr had only been formed in time of war,
to settle more easily the accounts of Regiments
abroad. A return to the old system be calculated
would produce an immediate saving of 14,0001.
tumidly, and eventually as saving of 20,0001.
Aright be expected. He had been on the recruit-
ing service, anti had had five or six parties under
him ; sonic of these were distant from each other
and train him a hundred miles and more, but he
had found it perfectly, practicable to conduct the
service on the plan which he now recommended
CO the House. The (tiding-school at Pimlico,
which had been formed to instruct cavalry in the
lance exercise, it appeared to him wa.s no longer
Vented. He wished to know why this expence
Vas necessary. The reduction of three District
Quarter-masters, which lie recommended, would
give a further saving ; and the reduction of the
establishment of the Adjutant-General in Ireland,
which lie thought might be placed on the same
footing as the Adjutant-General's establishment
in England, would give a saving of more than
3,0001. The Staff of the Leeward and Windward
islands, and of Gibraltar, he thought dispropor-
tionate. to the situations in which they were
placed. On these a saving of 2,5001. might he
effected, and other savings which he pointed out
in cunnection with this subject might be realized,
amountieg in the whole to 9,0001. The office of
the Paymaster-General he did not think neces-
sary, us the Paymaster had not that controtd over
those who were to furnish hilts with accounts
which an efficient Officer ought to possess. To
Lim it appeared that the Secretary of War might
issue his warrants direct, without the intervention
or a Paymaster-General. This plan had been
acted upon in Ireland, where an army of ditty
Thousand men had been regularly paid without the
aid of a Paymaster, and not the smallest corn-
plaiut had arisen on account of the absence of such
an Officer. The Deputy Paymaster who had re-
tiled, received an allowance of 5471. per annum ;
be wished to know why this was, 'when the per-
son who performed all the duty received no more
'bath 5001 / He objected to the continuance of
Paymasters in the lonian Islands and other places
abroad at an expellee of 1,7001. per ann. The
increased expense of the War Office, which now
amounted to 51,0001. per ann., he next noticed.
In 1806 the whole establishment, exclusive of
Contingencies, consisted of a Deputy Secretary at
War anti 119 Clerks, whose salaries were alto-
gether- under 30,0001. In 1819 the number of
Clerks had increased to 147, and the salaries from
30,0001. had been augmented till their amount
Was 48,0001. He wished to know what made this
difference between the expence incurred in 1819
and tuut incurred in 1806, when we were at war
in every quarrer of the globe ? By a regulation
adopted ie 1803, die Junior Clerks were to re..
teive 80!. per annum, 'and their salaries to be
ginduttlly iticiedsetl for twenty years, but never
10 exceed 1501. He wished to know on what
principle the Assistant Examiners, since. em-
ployed, had received salaries of 2251. and 2501.
per, annum I With respect to the Commis-
sariat Department, be thought a change might
be made that would produce considerable bene-
fi . He wished all contracts made to be sub-
sumed to the Commanders of Regiments, and by
the reforms which be suggested he thought a sav-
ing might be made of 12,0001. in Great Britain,
anti the further saving to be expected in Ireland
Inieht bring the total' to 20,0001. The office for
examining accounts in errear formerly cost the
annual sum of 2,9001. It now cost 2,7001. Thus
the charge was ouly 2001. more for the foreign
aleeartment of the Army, when numerous.foreign
yogis. were in our service, than was now paid
ibetely Aar winding up the account. All these
Were matters wide; required explanation, and he
therefore thought it could not be denied that they
Ottght to be referred to a Committee. After
iouching on several other topics, he came to no-
lice the Comptrollers of the Army accounts.—
•Prom the 19th Report of the Committee of Fi-
t:nice, it appeared that, in 1797, when the most
active operations were carrying on in every part
'tn the globe,and the Army Extraordinaries amount-
ed to nearly 6,000,0001., there were two Comptrol-
lers,with salaries of 11001. each, which, with those
'of the officers under them, were something less than
•4,5001. In 1819, when the Army Extraordinaries
amounted to little more than one million, there
Were three Comptrollers, one with a salary of
20001. per annum, and two with salaries of 1,5001.
.leach, beside 57 other officers, whose salaries
made the charge altogether 1,2501. being an in-
crease of 8001. over what it was in 1798. He
wished to know why this increase had taken place)
`--The system of the Military College might, be
thought, be advantageously changed, and an an-
nual saving effected. The present establishment
of the College was unnecessary. These were
Petty details, but it was on these that the saving's
trere to be made, and these charges, though but
.little in themselves, were enormous in their
amount. The retrenchments which be should
Propose would amount to about 400,0001. per an-
tun, and this was surely an object. He came
• to the Superannuated List. In 1810, a re-
gelation had been made under which those only
were to be superannuated who bad been ten years
'1 the service, and who were incapable of conti-
ing longer in it, and to such pensions were to be
P'anted not exceeding one-third of what had been
their full pay. Notwithstanding this Resolution,an
under Secretary at War, who had been but six
~rears. and a half in the service, had, however,
Pot on the List, and had received, beside
liia other allowances, an additional 10001. per
,s"num. In the Foreign Department, one person
had served as a Clerk for five years, bad re-
ed on a pension of 4561. This w.as more than
tiGeneral Officer received, who had served in all
climates for 30 or 40 years, and wasted his health
and his
d she •
s blood in the cause of his country.—
th
• " Aimy Medical Department, oue luau bad

been superannuated, on an allowance of 8001. per
annum, who continued to hold the situation of
Physician to the Forces. Another 'person at the
Medical Board retired on 6001. per annum, and
held the situation of Physician to Chelsea College,
which was a sinecure, and thuS he received 11001.
of the public money for nothing. A Commissary-
General of Musters had retired on 6001. per an-
OWN, and held the situation of Secretary to Chel-
sea Hospital, and thus received annually the sum
of 11001. from the Public. The Widow of an Ac-
countant received 4001. a year. In the Barrack
Department of Great, Britain two officers had re-
tired on salaries of 8001. per anti., who had served
hu! 9 years. Besides these, some gentlemen who
hod been engaged in making tip the accounts of
Gen. Delaney, received 5001. and 6001. a•year on
account of that single business. Ought not such
abuses as these be inquired into ? He now came
to the Barrack Department. For the Barrack
Offices there was a charge of 16,0901. Fo,r the
alterations and repairs of buildings there was a
charge of 53,0001. for Great Britain only.' He
was confident that, if an inquiry were instituted,
half the barracks now kept rip would be found
useless. The tact was, however, that it was use-
less to recommend to Government ally system of
economy whatever. So long as they could retain
any thing like patronage in their grasp. 'they
would keep it, and they could only be made to
change thek plans by the decision of that House.
There was no hope of retrenchment, unless that
House took the business into its own hands. It
was with this view of the subject that he should
move for a Select Committee. If he bad fallen
into any error, instead of makine captions objec-
tions to what be had advanced, Ministers, it sin-
cere in their professions of regard (or economy,
would assist him rather than oppose him, and
sanction the inquiry, which he contended was
necessary. He concluded by moving, That a Se-
lect Committee be appointed to inquire into the
whole Military Expenditure of the Country, and
report their opinions thereon to the house.
Mr. C. LONG showed the duties of the Pay-
master General to be duties of importance, and
connected with great labour. When lie came
into office the accounts were in arrears for 25
years. All these bad been passed, and the ac-
counts were now in such a train, that all-the home
accounts but those of the last year' had been
passed also. For the superannuated allowance
which had been referred to, he was not respon-
sible, The Accountant's Widow, who received
4001. per annum, was the widow of au, ac-
coentant who had held that situation at a time
when the situation was one of very considerable
importance. 'When the Hon. Member said the
Act to which he had alluded had not been com-
plied with in. the cases of three persons be had
mentioned, he might reply to him that it had not
only been complied with, but that not one of the
three bad received what he might have claimed
under it. One had been in the service 50 years,
and had not received what ought to have been
his allowance, and the other two had not received
any thing near what they might have claimed.—
He proceeded to spew that Ministers, whatever
might be said of their anxiety to preserve their
patronage, had of themselves abolished all the
Paymasters on foreign stations, but those of
Malta, Gibraltar, and the lonian Islands.
Lord PALMERSTON had hoped the subject of this
night's discussion might have been suffered to rest
till Friday. He would, in his reply to the Right
Hon. Gentleman, be as short as possible, and if
he should not answer him on every topic, the
House would rerneniber that the Hon. Member
had the advantage cii"eing able to choose his
points of attack, on sothe of which it was not to
be expected that he would be prepared at the mo-
ment to give that explanation which might be
supplied. The Hon. Gentleman bad commenced
his speech by an attack, which he did not think
they deserved, on the COMMittees which had sat
within the last two years. These he had been
pleased to say had done nothing—or, at least, be
contended that no good had resulted from their
labours : be thought they lied displayed as mach
industry, and as sincere a desire to do their duty•
as any Committees thit had ever sat. With "re-
spect to the increase which appeared in our mili-
tary ,force in the present year over that of the
last, he might-safely leave `"the-House to fo'rrn
own opinion. If the events'of the last-year(which
were known to the House) were not sufficient to
convince them that the increase was necessary,
he was sure that no argument that lie could use
would bring conviction to their minds. .The
House, however, must have greatly changed their
opinions if they could think the increase which
had taken place other titan necessary. The Hon.
Gentleman had given it as his opinion, that by the
means which he had suggested, a total saving of
400,0001. might be effected annually. He could
not meet the Hon, Member at that time with a
calculation opposed to his ; but if he might judge
from the statements he bad heard from him be-
fore, be shonld not be inclined to estimate the
saving! at any such amount. The question was
not whether a saving would be effected by the
arrangements be bad suggested, but whether
its importance would not he more than counter-
balanced by the change introduced by that mode
of organization of which he was the advo-
cate. The Hon. Member had said, if the people
of England had exerted themselves to preserve
tranquillity as the people of Scotland had done,
there would have been no occasion for that in-
crease of the army which had been thought ne-
cessary. Stating this he wronged the people of
England. The country gentlemen had every where
exerted themselves to preserve 'the public peace,
and the remark of the Hon. Gentleman was over-
thrown even by his own statements. He had re.
presented Scotland to have put on foot a Yeo-
manry 3000 strong. If in this estimate he was
correct, to make up the 25,000 yeomanry in Great
Britain, England could have no fewer than 22,000.
Colonel Darns said, he had remarked that there
were only 554 yeomanry in Lancashire.
Lord PALMERSToN replied, that the number sta-
tioned in a particular district could be no argu-
ment against him. Various circumstances might
make the Government anxious to have more in one
place than another, and it was not Lair from the
number in. any particular district to aSsuine that
there was any thing lik-eipatity to be charged on the
people at large. But tltv Meatber proposed

the sweeping measure of discharging all the dis-
mounted men. In England it had'been thought
desirable to diminish the expense of the cavalry,
by dismounting a number of men in each regi-
ment. Bit instead of viewing this as a measure
of economy, the Hon. Member proposed the fur-
ther reform of discharging all these men. If this
were determined upon, the next time the subject
came before the House, they might expect to hear
the Hon• Gentleman expatiating on the absurdity
of having as many horses as men in the cavalry
regiments, and proposing that some of the men
should he dismounted, and these he might subse-
intently recommend to be discharged, and thus he
might go on till we had no cavalry remaining. He
skewed that the cavalry were necessary to be kept
up to maintain the public peace, and to protect
the revenue, and the opinion expressed by the
lion. Member as to the propriety of adopting
another system of organization of our army, did
not appear to him to establish any ground on
which Parliament could proceed to decide for
the recommended change. The Honourable
Member objected to the waggon train, yet he ad-
mitted that a great part of it was employed in re-
moving the cavalry baggage. If diminished, the
efficiency of the cavalry must be diminished, as
troop horses must be employed, or horses must
be hired, whenever a removal of baggage was ne-
cessary. This would not be desiraole, and it was
the duty of Government to provide for its remo-
val in the most efficient manner. With respect to
the saving of -60 or 70,0001. which the Honour-
able Gentleman thought might be made on the
infantry, he was inclined to think that no such
saving would result from the adoption of his
plan, while the diminished efficiency of that
branch of our force would infinitely more than
counterbalance any saving that might be made;
and unless a certain force were kept op during
peace, on which a larger force could be formed on
time commencement of a new war, the Govern-
!tient would he exposed to the greatest embar-
rassment. The change which the Honourable
Gentleman wished for with respect to the Guards
was in direct opposition to Mr. Burke's plan
for separate issues and separate establishments,
and the recruiting system be showed could not be
changed without great injury to the public ser-
vice. The Riding School at Pimlico had been
established not merely to instruct the cavalry in
the lance exercise but to introduce that uniformity
into the cavalry exercise which had been wanting.
Here men had been sent from every part of the
country, that they might be instructed so as to be-
come riding-masters themselves, and this was
found of great importance, and had much improved
our Cavalry discipline. The Hon. Gentleman had
expressed • surprise that the establishment of the
Adjutant-General in Ireland was larger titan that
of the Adjutant-General in England. This, he
chewed, arose from the numerous subdivisions of the
meth Such also was the case of the number of
officers, employed in the Leeward and Windward
Islands, and at Gibraltar. The General Officer at
Tobago was also the commander of the forces in
several other islands ; and in each of the islands
the General Officer was Governor of the Island as
well as commander of the forces. Upon the whole,
if he were to follow the Hon. Gentleman through
all his statements, he was confident that the
400,0001. which he thought might be saved would
be reduced to a very small slim. The amount of
the Salaries, Btc. at the War Office, which in
1819 was 48,0001. having been, as the Hon. Gen-
tleman stated, under 30,0001. in 1806, arose from
this circumstance ; the establishment bad never
been augmented in proportion to its increase of
business, and an immense accumulation was the
consequence, which had not yet been disposed of
so as to admit of any reduction of the present
j establishment. He did not think the Honourable
Gentleman's plan fur settling the accounts, and
issuing the payments of the Army, would be se
'conducive to time public interest as that now acted
upon, For the period from 1811 to 1816, no
fewer than 1286 accounts had passed the Board,
-and only 45 remained from various causes unset-
tled. For 1817,113 accounts had been settled,
and 21, frOm serious causes remained unsettled.
The accounts of 1818 were now under examina-
tion ; those of 1819 were not yet due, It would
from this statement be seen, that so far from there
being at present an arrear of accounts as former-
ly, time whole 'business of the current period (as it
was called),avas completely adjusted down to the
end of the year 1816. The accounts of Agents
were quite distinct from those of Paymasters.—
When disallowances were made in the ac-
counts of Agents, they were either paid into
time Bank of England, or set off against them
on the payments they had to receive from the
Pay-Office. The Hon. Gentleman was for going
back to the old system in doing away the present
establishment of a Commissariat Department ;
proposing to supply the Army with meat and
'bread through the Commanding Officers of Regi-
ments. This arrangement, he was convinced,
would entail a considerable increase of expense.
From time experience which had been had of
it, no arrangement had ever been made which
had beep so beneficial as the Commissariat ;
and, indeed,, it was.- obvious that contracts
made on a great scale, as by this Depart-
ment, must be more economical than where each
Regiment went to the butcher in the town
where it should happen to be stationed.—
There could be no surety to time butcher, in the
latter case, that a great part of what he provided
might not be thrown upon his hands, as a consea
qnence of time removal of time regiment ; whereas
in dealings with the Commissariat the contractor
was sure of his supply, at least for some mouths.
With respect to the Hon. Gentleman's objections
as to the present establishment of the Quarter-
master-General's Department, he had to observe,
that it was as far as possible on the same footing
as in 1792, with time single exception of the Li,
thographic press, which he believed had been pro-
ductive of a saving to the public, and was certainly
highly serviceable in the particular part of time ser-
vice its which it was employed. With regard to
the Comptroller's Office, as well as his own, it was
to be remarked, that the business of examining
accounts arising from a war, did not end with
the war itself. it was not till after war bath finish-
ed, that. the accompts belonging to it were pro-
dticed. On the head of the Military College, the
Hon. Gentleman had allowed that Great reduc-

lions had been made, but still not enough. The
House would see when they looked at the
papers before them on the subject, that an ar-
rangement was to take place on the 24th of June
next, for consolidating the Senior and Junior
Colleges. By this arrangement the bead of the
Senior Department would be abolished, and many
Professors dispensed with. On the subject of the
number of Cadets admitted annually into the
Establishment, it appeared that the total number
of vacancies for -Ist commissions, in the year
1818, was 207. In the year 1819 there were
182. Allowing, therefore, that there were
200 commissions annually, he was sure the House
would not consider that 70 new Cadets in each
year were too many. The Honourable Gentle-
man made another objection with respect to
the manner ofereating the Cadets. They were only
boys, he said, and ought to be treated as
boys. It was necessary that they should have
some persons to instruct them in discipline ; and
whether these persons were called by military
names or not, he thought was of little moment.
By the new arrangement, which was about to be
effected, the Professors who at present attended
only for two hours a day, were to give their at-
tendance for a period of six hours in summer and
hve in winter. That he thought was as great a
length of time as any man could be expected
to give his mind, so as to be useful. The
Honourable Gentler-nap also had thought fir to
say, that it was not necessary to instruct officers
before they joined the army, asserting that in ge-
neral they had forgot all they had learned at
College in less than two years. The Honour-
able Gentleman, he believed, had himself been
at that College, and he hoped that he could in his
own case contradict his own argument. He
trusted that he was not an instance of thet rapid
forgetfulness. At all events, he hoped the obser-
vation of the Hon. Gentleman on this point was
not true. His conviction was, on the contrary,
that the young men from this establishment, by
their general conduct, had shown the advantages
the army had derived from it. He could also
state, in opposition to the Honourable Gentle-
man's opinion, that the highest authorities
in the army thought that this Establishment
was necessary to a nation which thought it
necessary to have an army at all. If we had a
regular army at all, it was evident we ought to
have a good one ; and we could not have a good
one unless the officers were properly instructed in
their duty. The consequence of there not being
an efficient school for military men in this coun-
try, would be the driving them into foreign coun-
tries for that instruction. And it deserved the
most serious consideration, as to what would be
the evils attendant upon such a line. He requested
of the House to reflect on the consequences of
sending young men into foreign schools at that
time of life when the mind was being formed into
a stateof manhood. He wished British officers to be
British, not only in name, or in birth, but in !belt-
feelings and conduct. lo reply to the Honour-
able Gentleman's remarks on the retired allow-
ances, be begged to remind him, that the alloW-
ances he specified were made previous to the passe
log of the Act to which be said they were con-
trary. He had been in many errors that night ;
and, amongst those, was his interpretation of the
Act in question. Many of the retired allowances
he complained of bad been granted to persons
whose offices had been altogether abolished ;
whilst the Act only ortlered that a certain liue
should be observed in granting allowanceaeo offi-
cers retiring from ill health, or otherwise., when
another took their place. He believed he had
gone through all• the points of the lion. Gentle-
man's speech, and be thought he bad succeeded in
shewing that no ground had beets laid before the
House for gran ing him a Committee.. Nothing,
he contended, was more simple, than for any
Member to slew sufficient reason for being grant-
ed a Committee ; but the lion. Gentleman had
entirely failed in this, It the mover could sheor
that the question he desired to investigate was
difficult to be comprehended, and that he could
throw light on the Committee, or that he expecte
ed the Committee would throw light on hint, then
there was something like a cause for granting a
Committee. But the subject was sufficiently
clear of understanding. Commissioners had
already been appointed, who had examined it in
all its details, having sat several years for
that purpose. The Honourable Gentleman, per-
haps, thought that every turn of the spade might
turn up some venerable fragment of old abuses; but
he would find that every stone bad beets already
turned. He repeated, that no sufficient parlia-
mentary ground,had been given for granting the
Committee which had been proposed to the House.
It appeared to him that the Hon. Mover had so
mistaken the facts, and the grounds of his con-
elusion, that be should be sorry if the House gave
him any encouragement. He was the last peruser
tO treat lightly any topics connected with the dis-
tresses of the country; but it ought to be remem-
bered by the Hon. Gentleman (Colonel Davies),
that the burdens of the country, at this moment,
were the consequence of that struggle which we
had maintained single-handed against the concen-
trated lorces of the civilized world. He knew
that the object of that struggle was not military
glory ; nor was it for acquisition of territory ;
nor even from the more excusable motive of as-
setting our rights—he knew it was a struggle for
our very existence. It should always be remembered
that the burdens eve at present laboured under was
the price we bad agreed to pay for our deliverance.
—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. Ceectleve.olaserted, that from the speech
sit the Noble Lord (Palmerston) it would appear
that his Hon. Friend 'was contending for souree.
thing dishonourable. All, however-, that his
Hon. Friend had .urged upon the House oo this
occasion was the propriety of -looking into the
burthetis of the people, its order to see if it were
not possible to alleviate ttiem. It was a question
at all events, whether by an inquiry.they might
• not make these burthens more tolerable to the
nation, by showing tilem that there was no re-
lief for them. His HOn. Priced had taken a la-
borious antlosefol task upon himself in bringing
these -aecountsebeforeebe attention of the House;
• and he had shown, how a saving of stone limo-
sends might be effected. The Noble Lurd (I'.)
said, that it was -easy to show reasons to the
• House why a Committee, should be appointed.