Star.
London, England, 1830-03-10 00:00:00

STATE OP THE POOL

7s to Bs.

Mr. WILMOT HORTON said it was his intention to move for
a committee of the whole house to inquire into the state of the
labouring poor, and he preferred a committee of that description to
a select committee, because the poor were likely to have more con.
fidence in any resolutions that might be adopted, when they knew
that the question was discussed publicly, and the opinions of dif-
ferent members were allowed to go forth to the public. In bringing
forward the motion it was not his intention to institute an inquiry
into the distress of the country generally, but merely to confine it to
the state of that class who depended on their labour for subsistence,
and to the means of providing something like a remuneration for
that labour. The great cause of the distress to which this class were
reduced was &superabundant population, and, until some remedy
for this could be provided, he was afraid that little progress could
be made in bettering their condition. Besides that class there was
another, who, he might say, were equally interested,—the landed
proprietors. Much had been said late about the distresses
of the farmers, and the proprietors of land; but one important
Cause of the distress under which they laboured had been but
lightly touched on,—he meant the poor rates. This was, in fact,
ales, and one of a guest amount, inasmuch u it amounted now to
between seven and eight millions annually, and fell chiefly on
the landed interest. Several attempts had been made to provide
a remedy for this evil. In 1798, Mr. Whitbread had introduced
a bill to regulate the wages of persons engaged in husbandry,
NM one of the grounds for such a measure was the great distress
to which that class were reduced by the inadequate remunera-
Am which they received for their labour, and it was necessary to
hear la mind, that this bill was introduced hem the beak nitrict
der took place, and before any change had been effused in the mo.
Wry system. It appeared, from Mr. Whitheisi's statement, that
the sufferings of this class were at that period very great. In many
ports of the country, he said, the ring dames were struggling
with poverty and misery, and that, in fact, their distress bad arrived
to such &pitch, that, if any increase were to take place, it was
possible they could submit to it for any leagisof time. At that time
a Mild, instead of being regarded as a big, was looked upon as
a curse. Mr. Whitbread therefore prapeoul a minimum of
wages instead of a maximum, which bed been the principle acted
on in the bill introduced in the nip of Queen klizabetb.
Mr. Pitt, In answer to the statmasat of Mr. Whitbread, ad-
mitted the evil, and said the state dab Muriag poor was greatly
to be wetted, but he objected to a ashamns of wages, because it
would tad to increase the evil. le muluded by sayieg, that
whatever measure might be substituted fa a minimum, he trusted
that In no ease waid maid be canted, mans on something like
sound al* bet pdidpise, and thet, shore ell, they should endea.
vour to introduce ere sasmare whit* would stoke the peasant look
on the number elide claims Tuber as an honour than as a mis-
fortune. Mr. Fox expand idesself also udwose to the repast-
tion and Mr. Whitbread. in complimenting Mr. Pitt on his
speech, concurred In the splits that it wadi be desirable to hold
out a premium for the mesematesum dlmp families. Such was
the state of the labewfmg deems la MK and since that pe.
rind labour had undergone fiaetwadeno similar to those which
all productions are liable to in at over-trading or re-
dundancy of commodities. Theapeln ks of Mr. Pitt, as regarded
the wages of the labouring classes, wee tke emu with that which,
probably, he would have pursued in any speaks of traffic or tom.
meree. Had there been a glut of sugar, foe instance, he would not
have recommended a minimum of premium be the introduction of
sugar. Shortly after this Mr. Dialtbus published his work on po-
pulation, and Mr. Whitbread introduced another bill, which he
must say, contained a great deal of heterodoxy. (Hear, hear.)—
The bill was for the education and relief of the poet, and, after pass-
ing the Commons, it was thrown out in the Lords. Mr. Ricardo,
is apsakiog of the bill, said the two great difficulties were the re-
of population, and the means of providing for the main-
taining of the poor. (Hear.) The latter was the great deaf-
diastase, and must remain so while sufficient funds did not exist
to peovide for the poor. The existing evil must be imputed In a
great measure, to redundancy. of population, and not to taxation
alone ; and, in confirmation of this, be would refer them to a
valuable book just published on the subject by Mr. Batten.
What was of seine importance, also, was the fact that this was not
confined to England On comparing the state of Switzerland
and England, it would be found that the same cause existed in both
—namely, a redundancy of population. This indicated that there
were some general causes common to both, quite distinct from
national debt or a change of currency. This, in fact, had be-
come so evident in Switzerland, that a law had been passed in
that country prohibiting all persons from marrying who had re.
ceived assistance, and who had not refunded the amount to the com-
munity, a measure of severity, certainly, to which the Legislature
of this country would hardly dare to resort. In 1821, another
bill had been brought in by an honourable friend of hie, in which
he suggested a masimun of wages; and Mr. Nolan afterwards in-
troduced another, which bore a strong resemblance to the bill which
it was his intention to propose ; but they had the fate of most other
bills, and were finally thrown out. The measures which he had in
contemplation would apply to four different classes of poor.—
The first included the poor who obtained an independent exis-
tence by their labour, and whom he thus designated in contra-
dieting*. to the rich, who had not to labour for their sub-
sistent*. The second included the helpless poor, who were de-
prived by youth or age, from providing for themselves, and who, in
this enemy, were supported by compulsion, or as in Frans* mad
sone mks countries, by voluntary contributioe. The third class
fo whisk be ailed the attention of the house were able-bodied men,
who were is to work, but could not get employment, or who must
perish er have recourse to illegal acts unless they were assisted.
This dem was so numerous that their present state required the ut-
most allentien of the legislature. The last class included all those
who pleherei begging to honest industry, and who had no other
resomene for subsistence. Respecting these different classes much
hillemedes might be obtained by referring to the report of the
mdse Committee. If he were asked who were wpm,
lbe wield wawa all those who received relief in say way,
whether from the parish or from corporate fends. The mere
het it receiving wages was no criterion at all : and here he
or see say that it would be quite impossible to find who wove pan.
pets and who were not, till they put an end to s system which,
if continual, would condemn the labouring class to
c= y. The system he alluded to was that of payingir:
part of his wages
to out of the poor rates.—(hear.) Such a
rwas most prejudicial the labouring classes, and
]Mssthere-
was most desirable that some means should be adopted for
the country from the expenses it was put to by pro-
viii life able-bodied men who were able to work but could not
I id employment. la order to accomplish this, it would be nun.
way for parishes to make out sepsr accounts, and to distinguish.
the anaa paid to the second and third claws—the helpless
pose, ead able-bodied min who could not obtain employ.',
meet This, be thought, could be easily dupe, and he should,
therefore, recommend, as a necessary step, to ascertain first the
amount paid to these two clausal. The next suggestion he wield
offer was, that a power should be panted to parishes to employ the
able-bodied poor in a concentrated rather than a separate manner.—
He knew that, in several places, the labour executed by paupers
produced no retnrn ; but he considered that, by concentration of
several parishes, a profitable return might be setae. He also consi-
dered that, if his Mess were carried hue operation, other measures
should be used to (*MO the redundancy of the population; and
that might be by not permluing the eriction of cottages more than
were sufficient to Whore * employed population. He did
not go the length of saying that $ tax should be imposed on the

building of new cottages, but he maintained that some check was
necessary to restrain that redundancy which was the great evil of
the country. He was also of opinion that, where there was a per-
manent demand for the natural labour of society, the grant of small
pieces of ground to the labourers would be attended with the most
beneficial effects. He did not propose that ground should be given
to paupers, but that as natural labour was employed so it should be
allotted. (Hear, hear.) He thought that the principles which he
had laid down were illustrated in the parish of Redbornstoke, in the
county of Bedford. The following is an abstract of the question,
he had put, and the answers he had obtained, from authorised per.
sons in the hundred :

1. What is the number of acres within the hundred at large ?--
38,037.
2. What is the amount of its population ?-13,512.
3. What is the number of rate payers?-982.
4. What is the number of able bodied labourers, accounting two
boys for one man ?-2,177.
5. What propottion of these able bodied labourers receive asstit.
once from the parochial funds ?-646.
G. What is the number of persons comprising their families, and
with them dependent, either wholly or partially, on 'the parochial
funds for support ?-3,780.
7. What is the raw of relief granted to able-bodied pauper
labourers ?

From 3s 6d to 6s 6d.

to 6. 6d.

8.64 to 10s.

e men ?—From 3s &I to 4s 6d.
and wife without children ?

95 to 14s.

with one child ?—From 5e Gd

with two children 7—From

with three children ?—From

with four children ?—From

Its to 144.

with five children ?—From

8. What system is adapted with respect to the employment of
able-bodied labourers ?—ln almost every instance in digging mate-
rials for and repairing the parish roads.
9. What sum has been expended in the maintenance of the poor
during the last three years ?-60,7611.
10. What proportion of that expenditure has been incurred for
the support of able-bodied labourers ?-13,6741.
11. What proportion of that expenditure has been incurred for
the support of their families ?—(N.B. This return includes the
allowances made to the paupers of the whole parish.)-9,4291.
12. Is there a poor-house in the parish ?—ln 12 out of 14 pa-
rishes.

13. What proportion of thetlebouras now belonging to the
wish would be sufficient to perform all the labour necessary to be
habitually performed, including repair of roads, &4?-1,4913.
14. Inat number can be spared?-681.
Annual increase of male population, moat of whom are labourers,
111. Number of acres to each able-bodied labourer 181.
Average annual amount of poor's-rates for ten years, up to Lady.
day, 1821, 15,7141.
Annual amount of poor's rates per acre, 75.10 d.
Ile did not know what the experience of other members might be on
the subject, but it was evident that hen, out of two thousand
men, six hundred were superfluous ; and the information fur.
nished him from other places was to the same effect. It was
true that this redundant labour would be absorbed by nadonal want,
and, when the circumstances that at present prejudiced the capi-
talist passed over, the fund of superfluous labour that at present op.
pressed the country would go into general circulation. Ile received
yesterday a letter from a clergyman—one among the many letters,
anonymous and with names, which the house would imagine-were
addressed to him on these subjects--and that letter stated " that
the desire to emigrate had increased with the distress, and that
they were sinking with accelerated velocity into the, jaws of
pauperism; and that something should be done to relieve the
multitude of labourers breeding (or breathing) and starving in a
state of hopelessness and fatuity." Nothing could be worm
than a hopeless state of pauperism, and the example of Ireland
was the best commentary on a system in which there was no check
to the increase of paupers. Mr. Barton, the clergyman to whom he
alluded, was of opinion that some restraint must be placed on popu.
laden; and Mr. Hodges, a gentleman of intelligence in Kent, was
of the same mind. The latter wrote" that as the labourers became

numerous they became reckless of consequences, that they mar.
Heel, and their poverty led them into every degradation." It was
a true doctrine that the poorest men were the most disposed to
marry. With regard to the poor laws he was one of those who
thought that poor laws, duly regulated, were the best indications
of a high state of civilization ; but if the country was to have
a free circulation of commerce and of free labour it was necessary
that an.equal uniformity should prevail with regard to these laws.
For instance, if there were twenty counties with poor laws and twenty
counties without them great misery would accrue, and he therefore
saw no reason why Ireland should not be placed on the same foot.
ing as every other part of the United Kingdom. (Hear, hear.)—
Until a system of poor laws was extended to Ireland it was evi-
dent she would throw off as much of her superfluous population
as she could into this matey. (Hear, hear.) He was not one
of those who thought that population was encouraged by the
poor laws. (Hear.) In the south of England they were sup.
posed to have had that effect; but there, in consequence of a
relaxation which took place, a permanent system was founded,
which led to many 111 results. The effect had become a cause, and
then it entailed most serious evils. In his opinion, the Legislature
ought to make a decided different* between the poor classes whip
lived by their own labour, and by the poor laws. There mast
be a substantive distinction made between between them. lie
did not ask the house to coerce the poor, but they must be re-
strained from multiplying beyond the demand of society for their
labour. He knew no other way to effect that object than b
making a substantive distinction 'between these two claues by which
alone the poor would be extricated from the evils attendant on an
over-population. He did not go the length of saying that the la.
hoovers of Ireland were not to come over to England to work, or
that their labour should not be free : but he believed that it was
evident that there was a superabundant population in that country,
and it was admitted that that great increase of population was
owing to the potato—(Great laughing.) A potato-fed poca earns
over here to compete with a corn-fed people, and it was dear that
their labour must be cheaper. The evils of that system of food
were evident; and it should not be forgotten that when the
potato crop failed England had to support the greater
peed= of the poor of Ireland ;—in fact, English benevolence
was giving a bonus to the incense of Irish paupers. If this
were true he should wish to me the attempt made to separate the
pauper population of Ireland from the national labourers by a na-
tional project. He was told by some Irish gentlemen that the ides
of an over population existent in that country was absurd ; but he
had In the face of that the returns, by which it was shown that in
1825 there was a million of people patrolling the count!), without
employment. How was it to be known that a redundancy of popu-
lation existed, unless some plan was laid down ? A national men-
dicity association ought to be established—(hear.) In the opinion of
some people, colonisation at home, as it was adopted by the
Dutch, was the cheapest and the best that could be tried
but in his opinion a national colonisation abroad in the colt,.
ales was cheaper and more efficient. Something ought to be done
to put an end to a system which multiplied misery on every title ;
but be was of opinion, that until the poor were convinced of the
truth of these doctrines; all legislation would be ineffectual. It
was necessary to establish in the minds of the people that their mi.
eery depended on redundancy, and, until that evil was corrected by
removal, these was no hope that the representation could do Food.
He called on the intelligent part of the labouring community....
on the artisan, and the: labourer who had education—to inquire
into these principles, and satisfy themselves of their truth. In
Manchester, in the year 1826, after the panic of 1815, them were
2,000 persona in a state of great distress, and the. Inhabitants
agreed to give wort to all parties who were resident for twelve
months. By that means the redundant labour was accurately roes.
sured, but in progress of time all these men were taken into etber
employment, and the whole labour was profitably absorbed at no
distant period. There was a peculiar distinction between the effects
of agriculture and manufactures on the increase of labourers in
country. In his opinion, the improvements in agriculture de-
creased, whilst the improvements of machinery increased the num-
ber of labourers. The increased machinery of Lancashire would
have improved the condition at the people, if it was not counterba-
lanced by the importation of Irish I:bowers. Here he could
not avoid alluding to the subject of currency. Many ra•
demen were of opinion that a change of currency or a de-
preciation of the standard would operate in a way to remove a
portion of the national distress; but he knew no instance in the
course of history where a depreciation of money did not fail to pre-
judice the labourinit classes. (Hear. hear.) That watidezatign
ought to be well weighed by every reasonable man. Ile thought
that the people of the country should know, that if money was to
be depreciated pa cent. in the standard, or by means of
paper, there would be a practical depredation to the labourer of
every shilling from twelvepsnce to ethernet halfpenny. It was
true that a slow remedy would be afforded by dine, and that the
wages of labourers would themes until they reached fifteen pence
for the former shilling; but still be thought the immediate effect of
an alteration In the currency would be that which be bad described
—(bear.) When he heard of the reduction of the value of the
currency offered se a relief far the labouring dares, he was de-
' Brous that the truth should be made known, and that the people
should look to other sources for relief. It wield be a system
which would only benefit debuts at the expense et their mediums
(Hear, hear.) By it one grain of mks wee net coetributed is
the circulation, and he entered his protest 'MOM O. A trill
circulation consisted in the treaehe of valve boa ow ata°
another—(bear, bear.) He did not peetead se ay that the

1.1..ied interest was not affected by the change of currency;
but he thought that when the change was attempted, then the
protest should have been made • but it was idle to think now of
violating all contracts which had been made since that period, and
it was still more idle to look to the plan as a mode of substantial
relief. (Hear.) lie would be deceiving the people if he told
them that no remission of taxation, compatible with our engage-1
ments and good faith, could yield them relief : but he did not
tell them to look to the remission of taxation alone; and
he was desirous to impress on them, that no remission of taxation
could affect paupers, who were no contributors to the State. He ad-
mitted that those who dispensed charity would have more means of
so doing, but the paupers, even through them, would be bene-
fitted but in a small degree by a remission which did not
go to remove the great impediment on trade. For instance, the
reduction of the beer and malt duties would have very little effect.
However benevolent the feeling of the legislature, it could not per.
manently assist men in a state of pauperism, because they would
bid:against each other, and, as a demand sprung up, the numbers
seeking employment would bring all to a level again. He wished
for a committee of the whole house to inquire into these topics,
and he thought it could be done in the house with more effect than
in a committee up stairs. The proposition he maintained was to
this purport—that the sum raised and appropriated to the relief of
the poor, and bearing on the landed interest, was to be considered
as a tax, and subject to all the circumstances attending any other
mode of taxation. Also, that if a pauper population existed, for the
labour of which there was no demand, a remedy was to be found in
colonization at home, or in the colonies abroad and that, if the re-
dundancy were removed, the remainder might continue in a state of
comfort at home. He further submitted that, if the redundant
population was to be withdrawn, parishes should be enabled to raise
capital for that purpose by the mortgage of the poor-rates, and that
such a plan would be beneficial to the landed interest, as well as to
the poor. Neither could any class, and especially the landed
interest, be anything but benefitted by an alteration, for while
a pauper continued so, he was not capable of maintaining
any tax. Finally, the capital that might be employed for coloni-
zation would be much more beneficial to the labouring classes than
any timing that could be done either in the way of reduction of the
national debt or of taxation. Upon examination, he would convince
the house and the country that this would be the ease; and if so,
the house ought to turn their views to the relief that the kingdom
might experience. lie thanked the house for the patience with
which they had heard him, and would remind them of an aphorism
of Lord Bacon, who had been considered the great enemy of cola
nisation. It was to the effect, that if things went on spontaneously
to the worst, if no remedy were designedly applied, they must tad.
mately come to that end. The right hon. gentleman concluded by
moving for a committee of the whole house, to take the condition of
the labouring poor into consideration.

Mr. PORTMAN seconded the motion, and thought the country
was deeply indebted to his tight honourable Mend for the labour
he had bestowed on that most important subject. He agreed with
hint that the distress of the poor arose from a redundant population.
Last year, when there was a talk of emigrating to the Swan River,
there wire applications from no less than three hundred and seventy
persons in one small district of the county he represented, who
were willing to go to any country where they could live by labour,
bur were wholly unable to remove themselves. Mr. Burke bad
long ago said that labour was a commodity, and should not be in.
terteml within the market by legislation. He could not agree
with his right hon. friend that a reduction of taxation would not
relieve the condition of the poor; whatever Improved the condition
of the employer, would improve the condition of the labourer, and
by consequence the condition of the poor. He thought it would be
wise to pass an Act to enable a large majority of Avery parish to
make a law that should bind the whole parish to the payment of a
labour rate, by which the poor would be employed ; instead of the
horrible system now practised in some parishes of keeping them con.
tined by day within walls to prevent their doing mischief, but
enabling them to plot mischief for the night. The only way of
giving tile poor man a free market for his labour, was to alter the
present law of settlement, which prevented his finding employment
Oct of his own parish. Ile also thought that to give the labourer a
small portion of land would enable him to maintain his family in
comfort, and save him from pauperism. He thought it essential that
the landlords of England should bestir themselves In behalf of the
poor, if they expected to preserve their own situations.

Mr. JOHN SMITH said he I'ad, three years ago, given small
portions of land to labourers, on the condition that if they received
any parochial aid, they should forfeit their tenements, he under-
taking to relieve them in case of any calamity. The consequence
was most grateful—he was never called on for any relief—they re.
gularly Raid their rent ; and they were all in a state of contentment'
and prosperity. He hoped the committee of the whole house would
be granted, because he believed that if something was not done to
assist the poor, there were districts is which violence and murder
would be the consequence. There were districts where numbers
were employed on the road at sixpence a day—a state of things
which wan not consistent with good conduct on the part of the las
bourer, or safety to the community.
Mr. BENETT said, the right hon. gentleman had astonished
him by saying that a reduction of taxation would afford no relief to
the poor. it was true, the pauper did not pay taxes ; but, if the
farmer was relieved rom taxation, he would employ more la-
tourers, and that would diminish the number of the poor. He was
et opinion, that emigration could not afford any efficient remedy for
pauperism.
Mr. T. P. COURTNAY was of opinion that no good result
could, by possibility, accrue from the motion of the right hon. gent.
The house ought not to enter into any committee at a period when
time was so valuable, without there being some reasonable prospect
at least of deriving some betoitit, which was not the case in the
present instance. For the last century and a half the house, from
tine to time, considered the question ; and the hon. gentleman
to.night had not brought forward any reason for a new line of
conduct being adopted. Under these circumstances he would ask
if it would not be better fur the hon. gent. not to press his motion
at present.
SLANEY said, there never was a time when it was more
incumbent on the house to take the poor laws Into consideration,
rid lie would call upon the house calmly, sedulously and firtnly
to look at the present state of the working population who alone
it was that suffered; it the Southern parts of the kingdom
in particular, the distress was great ; in proof of it, the rates
Jetted in Sussex, amounted to 7s. 6d. in the pound, whilst
in Northumberland they were only Is. 6d. in the one county
the rates were as one to forty ; in another, one in three ;
and of all schemes of mistaken benevolence, that of reducing
wages, and making up the amount in parish allowance, was
the worm. A few years ago the pauper population was one in
twelve; afterwards it came to one in nine, then one in seven • at the
present period it was one in six of the whole population that de-
pended on parish allowance. He was perfectly satisfied that unless
scone steps were taken immediately, things would grow worse instead
of better. Ile bad stated that one in six depended on parish allow-
ance; he Was satisfied that in and about this vest metropolis one mum in every tire was in a state of pauperism; those magnificent
piques which were raising their heads to the country were built on
rotten foundations, when such was the state of the labouring pope.
lotion of England.
After a few words from Mr. DArIzWPORT.
Sir F. BURDETT said, that if the Irish labourers were with-
eta% n from this country a great relief would be obtained ; he did
sot mean to say that the lash labourer ought not to be encouraged,
tor from it—he was industrious, and ought to be supported; but it
quite notorious that the English gentleman had his estate burdened
with Irish labourers. If the right hon. gentleman would confine his motion, and bring in a bill for sending the poor to those fine
colonies of which England made so little use, meat good might ra-
tionally be anticipated; those who emigrated and those who re-
stained at home would thus be benefitted. He would ask if it were
not possible to draw a greater portion of colonists from Ireland alone
ti r which purpose a distinct rate might be levied in Ireland.
Sir OEOROM MURRAY concurred with the hon. baronet in
support of colonization ; he had given the subject mature delibe-
Lawn when in Canada; no doubt could be entertained that much
gisitl would arise front the measure, both as regarded the mother
country and the colonies themselves. He had given the subject 1
considerable attention, and the system of letting lands by means of
autliorizttl agents had been contemplated, so as to afford facilities
,or arrangement with gentlemen and others who wished to encou.
rage emigration amongst the poor in their neighbourhood. Go-
vtinment had slways held out encouragement ; he ought to ob-
inn "vt, that there were three classes to which government had allotted
in the colonies • to the first class the land was sold to the
"Om bidder ; to the second it was allowed for the expense of sur-
vey; sad to the third class the land was given free of all charge,
with asgistance at the same time ; that, however, was done with
great caution.
After a few words from Mr. BARING, Colonel o'Oisnir, and
Lotd ALIFIORP,
hi?. E observed that there were certain fees charged on
emigrant', which operated as impediments; they should rather
rece.tve money than have it exacted from them.
Oft. MURRAY was willing to allow that the fees charged
mighitt be viesul in the light of impediments.
.%h. WILMOT HORTON, in reply, observed that if there was
one million of surplus revenue applied to free the country from its
undaat population, by encouraging emigration, more good would
vise than from remission of taxes to the same amount. He
withdraw his motion for the present, on an understanding
''out during the session he should bring before the house certain
.
oqilutions on the subject, upon a hich be should take the sense of
'ir house.

wELCII JVDICATURZ.
The ATTOIINEYOENERAL said he had now to call the
4:41.ti0n of the huuhe to a subject which had been advestrd to in
the spttch from the throne. The proposition which he had to sub-
w.t% dividrti into two panto--tirst, the abolition of the Couit of

Grand Sessions in the county-palatine of Chester and in Wales;
and next, the introduction of certain measures to facilitate that ob.
jest. He intended that the system of the administration of justice
in Chester and Wales should be assimilated to that which existed
in England. (Hear.) There was at present 20 Judges employed
in the administration of justice o 12 in England, and eight in
11 Wales. He proposed to reduce the number to IC with their at.
Itendant officers, who formed an important part of the patronage
of the crown. The house would, therefore, see that, in reeotu.
mending this alteration, the crown had no object of patronage in
view, but•wished rather to consult the service of the public. At
former periods the number of judges varied occasionally front 12, 15,
and 16; but for the last 130 years 12 was the regular number, and
more causes were tried within that time in England than in any
part of the known world, though there pas no other with so small
a judicial establishment. He proposed that his Majesty should
appoint an additional judge to each of the common law courts; and,
that one of those judges should transact business in chambers during
term, three judges remaining in court to assist the chief justice. He
proposed, likewise, that each of them should have a common jurisdic-
tion in all matters where the courts themselves had a common juris-
diction, no matter in which court such matters might arise. The hon.
and learned gent. then adverted to the devotion of the several terms
according to the present system, and proceeded to state the 'Altera-
tions which he meant to propose. At present no time of recreation
was afforded to the Chief Justice of the Court of King's Bench and
the other Judges ; therefore some alteration was absolutely neces-
sary. No man could possibly entertain a higher respect for the
noble person who presided over that court than he (the Attorney.
General) did ; and he should be extremely sorry to suggest any-
thing that would not meet his approbation ; but he must at the same
time say that, indefatigable as the learned judge was to whom heal.
luded, still the business was considerably In armor ; and the only re.
medy appeared to be to render the other courts more efficient.
He proposed that the Michaelmas Term should commence on
the 2d of November, and conclude on the 24th. There would
afterwards be a short vacation till the Bth of January, when Hilary
Term commenced, and by this arrangement Hilary Tern: would gain
two clear days. He proposed that the Spring Circuits should termi-
nate at the beginning of April, and that the Easter Term should
begin on the 15th oithat month, and end in 24 days. There would
be then a clear fortnight between these two terms. He proposed
that the judges should sit only one week between these two terms.
The month's sittings after Trinity Term would give somewhat less
than two month's vacation. He proposed that the judge who was
out of court should transact at his chambers a great part of that
business which was now transacted in court. In the measure ,he
now brought forward he did not propose any alteration of the law,
or in the procedure of the courts. These would be subjects of else.
nor consideration, and would be brought before the house on distinct
and separate grounds. The learned gentleman also proposed
that no arrest should issue for any sum under 1001. unless upon
special application to the judge. His object was to diminish the
power of arrest as much as possible. He stated that one great ob-
ject of the measure would be to abolish the court of great session in
Wales. He then described at great length the forms of proceed.
ings in the equity courts of Wales, and the remedies that were re-
quisite: his bill would propose the remedies. The bill should be
printed as early as possible, and circulated through Wales. He
concluded with moving for leave to bring in a bill to amend the ad-
ministration of justice in'Englandisnd Wales.
Mr. O'CONNELL lainented to observe that the bill pointed out
nothing that amounted to amendment as far as suitors were con.
cerned ; the convenience of the Judges and practitioners in the
courts only appeared to be considered. As to the arrangement,
which was coutemplated, of not arresting for sums under 1001.
that would be an improvement. He wanted to see the law cheap,
expeditious, and intelligible; but nothing was here proposed that
would effect such object. Special pleading iinpecied justice. Violent
changes were dreaded, and yet the jurisdiction of Chester and Wales
were to be destroyed. The local tribunals were to be annihilated,
and new Judges provided ; and justice was to be carried from
their own doors, instead of to them. He saw no improve.
meant, except for the judges and great practitioners ; because where
would be the advantage of allowing the Welch to come into the
English Court of Chancery, where theh cases might be heard by
the generation after next.—(Hear, hear.) He was against the mea-
sure, because it went to annihilate local jurisdiction, to which the
people were attached, and consequently against the wishes of the
people; and seconeßy, because it would increase rather than di-
minish the expencea.
Sir J. OWEN also said that the new measure would increase the
expenses, and that the bill would not pressed till after
Easter so that hoped
be
might know a little of what was intended.—
(Hear.)
Alr. 'WILBRAHAM thought the bill might be generally use-
ful, yet be did not see the necessity of destroying the local jurisdie.l
tiara of Wales.

Mr. C. WYNN thought the bill would be of the greatest benefit
to Wales.

The SOLICITOR.OHNERAL observed the additional judges
were required, and would enable the system to work out the bud.
ness, regularly in England and Wales, which was not now the ease.
He question whether it was advisable always to have justice at
the door—squity was more likely to be administered by men who
were abstracted from localities. At present the judges were only
barristers at the English bar—ought that to c.mitinue P Barristers
were men who abut their eyes to the truth—they only sought to pro.
mote their diets' interests.

Mr. O'CONNELL neither wished to have local appointments,
nariudges in Wales, who were practising barristers in England.
Mr. GREEN observed, that with all the influence of the Wynne
in Wales, at the late meeting in Denbigh, every man was against
the proposed ineasure--(hear.) This was the first time that new
measures were forced on s people u their desire, contrary to their
wishes. If three new judges were wanted in England, let England
have them and pay them; but do not disturb those institutions of
which the people did not complain. Having pracdsing barristers as
judges, might be altered; however, after what he had heard, he
thought poor, despised Wales, ought to be grateful to the Attorney.
General for even leaving them the trial by jury.
Sir C. COLE said that his county was entirely for the abolition of
the Welsh judicature.
Mr. FEROUSSON said if the bill were not palatable to Wales,
that would be to be regretted; but that fact was doubtfuL
Mr. PEEL said, that this bill was by no means all that was in.
tended to amend the Courts of the country; it was to amend the
Welsh judicature; and two county members had spoken in favour
of the change. Even the hon. member for Clare wu not satisfied to
have barristers for judges; but without occupation in England, how
could they pay for judges for Wales exclusively. .4.t present almost
every ease of Importance was transferred to England.
The ATTO NEY.GENERA.L replied.
Mr. HUME wished that they would attend to Mr. Bentham's
plan, and Introduce unifoemity of principle and practice into our
law courts.

Motion agreed to.
Mr. P. THOMSON obtained leave to bring Ina bill to amend
the 4ws:relating to usury.
The Game Laws Bill was read a second time.

The remaining orders having been disposed of, the have ad.
journed at a Quarter past Three o'Clock.

HOUSE OP LORDS—TuEsDAY.