The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-01 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, APRIL 1, 1845.

In the first place, the Government was swindled by
the contractors to a great extent ; and beside that, the
ships when built were worth nothing, or next to nothing,
He thought, therefore, on all considerations, that it
would be impolitic to put off preparation to the last mo-
ment ; and, for his part, he would be sorry to see the
Government left to have recourse to the commercial
dock-yards upon an emergency.—(Hear.) At the same
time he must say that, although he saw other countries
at this moment going to a great, and as he thought
w 'stern]. expense tor the enlargement of their dockyards,
he should be very sorry to see this country following the
example.—(Hear, hear.) Yet, looking to the actual
state of the navy—seeing that, although we had a large
number of ships. many of them were of great age.
Sir C. NAPIER—WeII, break them up.—(Hear, and
a laugh.)
Mr. S HERBERT—Many of them must before long
come to be broken up. It was necessary to increase, at
Portsmouth and Plymouth, the means of repairing and
building ship. of war, and to extend the means also at
Pembroke.—(Hear. hear.) He had had opportunities of
comparing the works going on at those ports with those
of another country, which had been referred to ; and he
could say that they would not cost one-third of the
expense.—(Hear.) Although the Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
Hume) seemed to ferget the explanation given on the
subject of these estimates by his Right Hon. Friend the
First Lord of the Treasury, the country seemed not to
forget, but to be satisfied is ith that explanation. The
increase of the expenditure was required for extended
operations to suppress the slave trade, and to afford in-
creased protection to our continually increasing
commerce.
Mr. HUME wished to state that he had not heard any
explanation from the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of
the Government, on the contrary, he had been in expec-
tation of the explanation uc to the present moment.—
(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) The Right lIOn. Baronet
had made a statement when he brought forward the sub-
ject of the income-tax that we ought always to be pre-
pared for war. But this was the sort of excuse for keep-
ing up a war establishment to which he had always ob.
jetted. But the preparations now proposed looked as it
we expected soon another Waterloo, or as if a hundred
hostile pennants were flying in the; Channel. With re-
spect to the suppression of the slave trade, the attempt
to effect that by means of a naval force upon the
coast of Africa had completely failed. Infect, accord-
ing to the opinion of the late Sir F. Buxton, the
employment of a naval force for that purpose had done
more harm than good—had actually aggravated the evil.
(Hear.) lie (Mr. H.) had always endeavoured to show
the country the uselessness of this waste of money, and
to tell the public that if they wished to have a war
establishment, they must expect to pay for it.—(Hear.)
Lord INGESTRIE regretted that the statement
of his llonourable Friend the Secretary at War
had not been satisfactory to the Honourable Gen-
tleman (Mr. Hume), for to him it had been perfectly
satisfactory.—(Hear, hear.) He had not been present
when his Hon. Friend the Secretary to the Admiralty
brought forward the first vote, but he was sure that the
statement of his Hon. Friend would be looked
upon with great satisfaction by the whole of the
naval service.—(Hear.) II believed that the navy was,
in every department, in a more efficient state than when
gentlemen opposite were in office. (Conservative
cheers.) The " trial experiments " instituted by the
present Admiralty had been conducted with perfect
Ifairness, and promised to lead to important improve.
ments in the science of ship-building. He gretuly re-
gretted that the schools of naval architecture, recom-
mended in 1806, had not been upheld—(" Hear, hear,"
from Mr. Hume)—and he thought that the gentlemen
who were engaged to superintend those schools had been
hardly dealt with. He hoped that justice would yet be
done to those gentlemen, amongst whom he would par-
ticularly. but not individually, mention Mr. Clewin, Mr.
Lloyd, Mr. Morgan, and oth'brs (whose names we did
not catch). At the same time, he complained of the
favour which had been shown to Captain Symonds,
whose system he regretted to designate as most rotten
and fallacious. Hitherto we had been groping in the dark,
in naval architecture ; and the consequence was that, in
the beginning of the last American war, we suffered
much in reputation, and would have suffered more, if it
hail not been for the gallantry of our sailors.—(Hear.)
The fact at this moment, was, that all our best ships
were built upon the model of those that had been taken
from the enemy.—(Hear.) He believed that the system
of building ships that had been adopted was most falla-
cious. Ha considered that the surveyors of the navy
had acted upon the most erroneous principles, and that
the worst results had attended their exertions.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS objected to the vote. He be-
lieved that the grossest practices had taken place,
and he thought he should be able to prove that, if
they would only grant him a Commmittee.—(llear.)
He entirely objected to the vote for the increase of the
estimates of this year over the year 1835. The esti-
mates of that year were 4,200,0001, those of the present
year amounted to 6,900,0001. For keeping ten sail of
the line the expenditure was 200,0001. more than in 1841,
when there were 26 sail of the line at sea. These were
circumstances which required explanation. The Right
Hon. Gentleman said that they were obliged to suppress
piracy ; surely piracy had been carried on formerly as
well as at present. lie (SirJ.Graham) also ailuded to their
three establishments in China, where the expenditure
could not b 3 very large. The increase of the navy was
attended with an increase in the estimates of the ord-
nance. In 1835 the expenditure in the navy, army, and
ordnance department was 900,0001. less than the vote
of this year. He (Mr. Williams) shionGulotdhveelirkenesmtiemtonattkettivsohiwyn
theysfrom shooHuieldA requirerember such chh earn iMajesty'snrease
these three 3 establishments
whlisahsmemnotsrecomtphaarnedthweithwhthoolese ofof
the
year 18.5 .
the expenditureonlyplacoef tthheeya rmh
ay said
dto
fnavyea r_otf the
e ir onlyUn i t eddi
iSii teautiets,
y
was in that point. There was not one year
sinthet ther
vi ee
ea
sc.e , whenpeg stuhceh
yl
ea
ar
rse sluBp4pllieasawderteB4v2oyewdhfeoar
there was not only a war in China, but a large fleet in
the Mediterranean, and when there was an actual war
on the coast of Syria, when the fortress of Acre was
taken--in each of these ears the expenditure was
340,0001, less than in the present year. After alluding
to the immense.increase in the expenditure in the service
in this year over the year 1818, so soon after the peace,
the lion. Gentleman esti I he could not help calling it ex-
cessively extravagant.
Sir C. NAPIER observed that he did not think that
the Gallant
acted
thatre h e
s Officerentfairly(s.tr o
BoardrC.
justlyN
of
on thaepi
Napier)
towardsr
opposite aide (Sir G. Cock-
burn) furr eaet hed.roldmwiatsoschntihoeet
awarer
to the p
imputedAdmiraltyhthim al
hstehravtarner
es
last. The Gallant Admiral made use of ob
which wen© quite uncalled for ; he intimated
were twenty naval officers in the command of steam-
boats who eould support his statements. They oughtt
have sent for these otlicers and brought them before the
Admiralty for examination. He did not think it fair
for the Gallant Officer to say that he (Sir C. Napier) was
damning everybody but himself. He however did not
say a single word about the ships which he (Sir Charles
Napier) said were in the docks. The Gallant Admiral
said that he did not pull those vessels to pieces; but he
(Sir C. Napier) wanted to prevent them from being
pulled to pieces in future. If one Admiralty allows it
now, why not another do so in future? When a Minis-
ter came into power, he generally selected those who
were in Parliament hunting for place, and who may be
the greatest blockheads in the world, to conduct the
affairs of the navy, instead of those who were well versed

in those matters, but this was the nature of things.
—(Hear, hear.) He (Sir Charles Napier) himself
might be in office, but they could find many
better men than he was. Were they to think that gen-
tlemen of the House of Commons, who came there to
make a House, to keep a House, and cheer the Ministers,
were the only persons to conduct naval matters ? He
only found fault with the construction of the 90-gun
ships and all the small ships, the 44-gun ships and the
50-gun ships, which were good fur nothing ; and the
sloops of war the Gallant Admiral knew, as well as he
did, were good for nothing. He was not opposing those
small ships which were of such use on former occasions.
When they came to blockade coasts and keep ships
during winter, they found those small ships work well.
He could not allow the Gallant Admiral to persuade the
House that the Penelope, that porpoise, was a good
steamer, for it was well known by the Captain that there
was not an officer in her that had a dry jacket. The
Penelope, with steam, in a calm, would do very well,
otherwise she had only 4 feet 11} inches out of the
water, instead of six feet. There was not an officer that
did not knew it. She was the most splendid man-of-war
in the world when she had no coals in.—(Laughter.)
Well, then, if she was the finest vessel in the world, why
not make Penelopes of all the men-of-war?--(Laughter.)
That was another fact to which lie would wish to call
the attention of the Gallant Admiral opposite. And
now he came to the case of the Terrible, and he would
tell the Gallant Admiral that lie was deceived about that
vessel ; she never was intended to carry guns astern at
all, for she could not carry them.—(Hear, hear.) It
was true that many improvements had been made in her;
but the best thing the Admiralty could do in her regard
would be to correct in the vessels now in progress
of building the errors made in the Terrible.—
(Hear, hear.) One of her defects was that
her ports were only 4 feet l 1 inches out of
the water, and the consequence was, her engines sunk
her much too low. Then, with regard to the Penelope,
of which he had been speaking—why, in fact, half the
power of the engines of that vessel was lost owing to her
defective construction.—(hear, hear.) Another matter
he had to mention was one which was really provoking
to a degree to think of—(Hear, hear)—and there were a
great many Hon. and Gallant Members present, at both
sides of the House, whose concurrence in his views on
those points delighted him, and they had come forward
to bear him out in a manner that did him credit.—
(Hear.) The House had already heard, from the Mediter-
ranean, that there was a feeling in favour of the Queen.
Now he had not the reports with him in reference to this
ship ; but he had read it to the House before, and a most
amusing report it was—(A laugh)—for the answer to
every question in the report was—" Not tried."—(A
laugh.) One question was—" How did she ride at
anchor?" and the answer was—" Not tried." Of course
she had not, for she had been moored at Malta harbour
all the time.—(A laugh.) Then, there was the Coiling-
wood. In respect to that vessel, all he would say was,
that if her construction had not gone too far, he would
strongly recommend that she should be built upon the
plan of the Vanguard, which was admitted to be a well-
constructed ship.—(Hear, hear.) He understood that
such a mistake had been made, in regard to the Tremen-
dous, that she was now about to be cut down, without
the least comounction.—(Laughter.) Under these cir-
cumstances, lie felt bound to bring forward this subject
before the House, and not lose the opportunity of doing
so, however much he might regret the cause that com-
pelled him to do so.
Sir G. COCKBURN hoped he had said nothing that
the Hon. and Gallant Officer could find fault with in
regard to himself personally. With regard to the state-
ments he (Sir G. Cockburn) had made, all he could say
was, that he hal given his authorities far those state-
ments, and the Gallant Officer had contradicted them;
but he (Sir G. Cockburn) could not see what good could
result from asserting and contradicting in that way.
Mr. HUME did not intend to oppose the present pro-
position, though he did consider it a large one; but he
did hope that her Majesty's Government would not lose
sight of the claims of meritorious officers in the contom
plated promotions.—(Hear, hear.) He also hoped that
acme system of regulation would be adopted in regard
to those promotions, for it was the only country in
Europe that had not some such regulation. He had
received many letters from very deserving and merito-
rious officers who complained of being put aside, al-
though they wished to continue in the service, and
young m n put in their place.—(Hear, hear.) On these
grounds he did hope that something like a rule would
be adopted in making promotions, and that it would no
longer be said by the Government, as an excuse for un-
just promotions, that there were some younger members
of the aristocracy for whom they should provide.
Lord PALMERSTON said he had a few observations
to make upon this question. The navy was at all times
the most important branch of the service of this country,
but it never was more peculiarly so than it was at the
present period.—(Hear, hear.) Without adverting to
events which had happened, or which might happen at
no distant period, he did think that enough had
transpired and taken place between this coun-
try and foreign countries to convince the
British Government, that they should turn their most
serious attention to the state of their naval defence,
with a view to place it in the most efficient state possible.
—(Hear, hear.) When first the present Government came
into power, they flattered themselves, that by making
certain concessions and acquiescencies to the wishes of '
certain foreign Powers, they would be able to sustain their
friendly relations with them, as far as regarded their na-
val and military establishment; but he (Lord Palmerston)
conceived they had gone too far in making these conces-
sions, and what was the result ? According to what
had transpired within the last few months, in the decla-
rations of the King of the French and the Queen of
England, it appeared that this country had, within a
very short period, been on the verge of a serious rupture
with France. Then, they had heard enough of the
state of the United States of America to impress upon
the Government of this country, the fact that it would
be impossible to rate too highly the value and import-
ance of having their naval force in the most efficient
state possible.—(Hear, hear.) Considering also that Ene-
land was possessed of colonies whose value was of such
importance to them that their naval force could not be
in a state too efficient to defend them.—(Hear, hear.)
The first point, then, they had to consider was, as to the
number of ships they had, the number they had in an
efficient state, and their different qualifications.—
(Hear.) He had heard the Gallant Officer near him
speak upon this subject, and it evidently ap-
peared that he was much more capable of express-
, in" an opinion upon it than he (Lord P.) was.
He thought the discussion of that evening had shown,
if it luta been doubted before, that they were come to a
pass, at which it was expedient that the Government
' should call in science to the aid of practice, with regard
to the construction of ships, because it was all very well
for the Right Hon. and Gallant Admiral to say, as he
had that night, that in the last war we had ships that
were regarded as of a clumsy and unsatisfactory de-
scription, but that with these ships our sailors had sailed
after and overtaken the enemy, and defeated a superior
force. But this was not a proof that our ships were
good. It only proved that. our sailors were expert and
skilful, and that with inferior ships they had triumphed
over the enemy. The French ships that were taken,
when they came into cur service, were admitted to be
very superior to our own ships by which they had been
overcome. This, therefore, only proved the superiority
of our sailors over those opposed to them. It was well
known to persons at all acquainted with the matter that
no problem in scienc or mathematics was more diffi-
cult to solve than that respecting the constructi in of a
ship destined for the purposes of a war. It was not very
easy for the most skilful mathematician to tell what
form a solid body should be in order to be best adapted
to go rapidly through a fluid. It was not very easy
beforehand to say what would be the floating line of
a ship not launched. It was not very easy to tell before-
hand what construction would give the greatest steadi-
ness to a ship. Mere practical men could not do this,
and the man of science, in giving an opinion upon these
points, must take into his consideration the principles of
stowage, and in this, of course, he would require the as-
sistance of the practical seaman. They bad been told
that the Admiralty were trying the experiment of em-
ploying two or three men—one man to build three ships,
and another four, and so on. That was very
praiseworthy, as far as it went, and it un-
doubtedly showed a great desire to improve
and perfect the construction of ships of war.
But, with all deference to the Admiralty, he did not
held them altogether to be possessed of that scientific
Knowledge which was a necessary element of this sub-
ject, and, therefore, they ought to call in the aid of
scientific men, and also the experience of practical men.
—(Hear, hear.) He thought this would involve a very
trifling expense, while it would be the means of approach-
ing to certainty with respect to the principle of con-
structing ships. Undoubtedly, the class of ships which
peculiarly required the attention of the Government was
the steam-ships. It was quite evident that the
construction of their ships required great improvement.
The Right Hon. Baronet had said that we were placed
on a satisfactory footing in this respect, as compared
with other countries ; that our horse-power of steam,
as compared with the horse-power of our nearest neigh-
bour, was in the ratio of three to two. He did not
think that was altogether a satisfactory statement, as
the Right Hon. Baronet had omitted to state. what was
the proportion of the vessels, which was a material
point of consideration. Now there was another branch of
this subject which his Ilon.andGallant Friend had intended
to bring under the consideration of the House, but whit
he had purposely abstained from touching on that night,
because the subject was too large to be treated inci-
dentally, and some more fitting occasion would present
itself for bringing it forward. lie (Lord Palmerston)
meant that part of the motion which referred to the
defence of our dockyards and protection of our coasts.
That was a most important subject, and he would net
anticipate what his Hon. and Gallant Friend might sly
upon it, but he believed that there was no subject which
more urgently required the serious attention of the Go-
vernment and of that House. There was one other
point connected with this subject which he could not re-
frain from saying a few words upon. He did not at all
agree with lion. Gentlemen who found fault with the
amount of the force, nor did he require any further ex-
lab] ae nyaht iaodn
madf r() me. tit), e
wGooutiedr,fro
we netv
etro,
ojffuesrt iafyfethw e o
ri
dn
se ruepaosne
ths augmentation
o Africa
for
th
o ft he e
sufoprperee,ssion
at the stationsthesle trade.
Now, on the
coast
Now, he should most cheerfully concur in any reason-
able augmentation of force for so great an object, but
he must own that there did appear to him a great and
manifest inconsistency between the proposal which the
Government now made, and the language which they
held on the subject of the slave trade. lie might say
without exaggeration, that the present Government had
turned ont their predecessors on the question of the slave
trade. It was the division on the great sugar debate,
which had caused their aecession to office, and on that
occasion they had said that to admit Brazilian sugar
would be impious, as it would only have the effect of en-
couraging the slave trade. What had happened ? The
very first thing thoy did after coming into power w—
rist* a treaty for the suppression of the Aliv- '

r(i
trade, and

the next thing they did was to let the United States out
of their engagement to co-operate for the suppression of
that trade, and they were now about to cancel
a treaty with France for the mutual right
of search. Was he the only person who thought that
the mutual right of search was essential to the suppres-
sion of the slave trade? The first authority to which he
would refer was one at the time of 1814, at the con-
clusion of the war. The Noble Lord then read an ex
tract from a dispatch from Lord Castlereagh to the Duke
of Wellington in 1814, in which the necessity and im-
portance of prevailing upon France to establish a mutual
right of search was set forth. So strongly at that
time was the importance of this measure felt,
that the Prince Regent, with the advice of his Minis ers.
wrote a letter to the King of France, urging this point,
and expressing in the strongest terms his anxiety that
the French Government would agree to the proposal.
the Duke of Wellington was instructed to make. The
Duke of Wellington, on the 26th of August, 1814, made
a proposal for a mutual right of search within the
northern tropic, as far as longitude 25 from Greenwich,
which was to the same extent as the treaties
then existing with Spain and Portugal. Upei,
that note a conference with the plenipotentiaries
of France, Austria, and Russia, was held. That
memorandum was transmitted to the respective
Courts, but there was no answer to it till the conven
Lion of Aix-la-Chapelle, in 1918. A number of ques
tions had been sent to be answered, and they were of
importance in this respect, that the answers to them
showed that the slave trace was in those times accom-
panied with as many horrors and excesses as it was at
the present moment, contrary to the opinions of some
who thought that the measures adopted with regard to
the slave-trade had increased its cruelty and harshness.
On the 29th of September, 1822, the Duke of Welling-
ton wrote to Mr. Canning from Paris. In that memoran-
dum he stated, that the slave trade was carried on
generally under the flag of France, for the obvious rea •
son that France was the only one of the great maritime
Powers of Europe which had not entered into the trea-
ties concluded with his Britannic Majesty, and the other
Fevers had too much respect for the flag of France to
seize those vessels which sailed under it. The Duke o!
Wellington went on to say, that endeavours had been
made to introduce improvements with respect !o Spaie
and the Netherlands, but no improvements could be
carried into effect as long as a contraband trade was
carried on under so respectable a flag as that of France
The memorandum had been sent to the Congress or
Verona in November 1822, but the Congress separated
with a vague expression of their desire to see an ono
put to the slave trade. Now he (Lord Palmerston)
would say that no man of proper understanding cool»
doubt, even if there was no authority to prove it, that it
was absolutely impossible, unless there was a mutual
right of search, to put an end to the slave trade—
(Cheers)—and that the conduct of the Government, in
having virtually given up the mutual right of search with
France, was quite inconsistent with all their declarations.
the consequence of which they now found to be the
augmentation of their navy. He confessed the declare-
; floes made by the Government with regard to the slave
• trade were calculated to excite the most painful feelings
in the minds of those who heard them. But perhaps it
• might be said his alarms were unfounded, because 0

the-result that might be expected from the labours of the
Commission, that Commission being composed of two
distinguished men, who enjoyed the highest possible
reputation. He could place no confidence in men placed
in their position, for they could only come to one result
If, indeed, they were asked to consult upon some means
in addition to the right of search, for the suppres
sion of the slave trade, he could place confidence in
their labours, because they could say nothing more
was to be done. But in Lord Aberdeen's dispatch it
was said that the right of search treaty was
suspended in the meantime, and once suspended
by the mutual consent of the two Powers, it could not
be revived again without their consent. And to make it
more humiliating to this country it seemed that the pro-
position for its suspension was made a condition imposed
by France upon England.—(Hear, hear.) It was in•
deed painful to see two individuals of such distinguished
character compelled to do work so little worthy. Of
the reputation they had hither to maintained he could
only say that if the Government pursued the course
they seemed determined on pursuing, an enormous in-
crease of the slave trade must be the manifest result.
Looking at the returns he saw that there was is
marked increase in the number of slaves landed
on the continent and islands of America
since they had left office ; and, though it had been said
that this was owing to the exertions of General Valdez,
and some sudden changes in the Government of Brazil,
and also that some assistance was afforded by the
Governments of Cuba and Rio, yet, without denying that
these causes operated in a slight d. give, he maintained
it was owing much more to the measures which the
late Government adopted, with respect to the Portuguese
vessels, both north and south of the line, and the mea-
sures they adopted with regard to the baracoons on the
coast of Africa, both of which caused the Brazil, Spanish
and Portuguese capital to be withdrawn from the slave
traffic. He did not wish to throw blame on any one ;
but he believed the traffic had lately increased.
He should be curious to see the returns. If the Govern-
ment persisted in their plan of relinquishing the mutual
right of search, there must be an enormous increase of
the estimates of the nave ; and, if they looked to what
passed, it was curious to see how the Government, in
dealing with foreign Powers, were led on from one step
downwards to another.—(Hear, hear.) What passed
eith respect to this particular commission ? M. Guizot,
who had negotiated the treaty of the right of search in
this country, was an ardent supporter of the treaty. He
authorised his ambassador in London to sign it, but in
six weeks afterwards he turned round and refused to
rwify it, which, he must say, was a breach of national
usage and of good faith.—(Hear, hear.) And this
was done without any remonstrance ; but the
French Chambers, encouraged by that, demanded of
el. Guizot that he should ask to have the treaties of
1831 and 1833 cancelled. What was the reply of M
Guizot ? He said, " How can you ask me to cancel
existing treaties ? Why, what would be the conse-
quence ? I shall be met by a distinct refusal on the
part of the English Cabinet, and will you ask of me to
submit my country to a direct refusal, which would b.
an insult to her. That anewer was accepted by the
French Chambers, but M. Guizot soon found that he was
entirely mistaken in the men whom he had to deal with.
Then there came other things ; there came the Ash
burton capitulation and the dealings with Spain, which
y—
led M. Guizot to see that he was dealing with persons
who—to use a phrase of his Hon. Friend the Member for
Finsbur "
were made of very squeezable materials."
Guizet then said to the French Chambers, "-Well, I
have been thinking these twelvemonths on this subject,
and now I think that these negetiations may not be so
hopeless as I thought they were last year, and that, by
doing so, I will not expose my country to such a decided
and peremptory refusal ;" and M. Guizot judged rightly
of the men with whom he had to deal. The negotiations
were entered upon, and M. Guizot had been successful.
The Government of this country, out of compliance to
a foreign Government, and to maintain as they thought
one foreign Minister in power six months longer than
he her might retain it, and to catch for
him otar:.vi
ise
votes on a narrow division, sacrificed
all those
principles which this country, the nation, and
Parliament had for years held as most sacred, and
were goingto bring upon the innocent and unoffending in-
habitants of Africa an increase of those horrors which
must necessarily accompany the slave-trade.—(Hear,
hear.) He could only say if they pursued that course it
would be difficult for men to determine, and he would
leave it to them to choose whether they would be guilty
either of most miserable weakness, or most hateful and
detestable hypocrisy.—(Cheers.)
Sir B. PEEL said that he would first address himself
to what had fallen from the Hon. and Gallant Officer
opposite. He.regretted that the Hon. and Gallant Offi •
eta. had 'been prevented from making his motion
in the manner he himself wished (Hear) but
he had an opportunity of making his speech
and he could not help thinking that the result would not
be very different if he had made the motion in the
manner he intended. The Noble Lord said that he con-
curred with the Gallant Officer in the opinion that
science ought to be called in aid of practical experience
in respect to naval improvements. He (Sir R. Peel)
concurred in that sentiment; but the question was who
should be the presiding authority when science was
called in aid of practical experience. The Gallant
Officer proposed a Committee, but he (Sir Robert
Peel) must say that the Board of Admiralty was
the proper tribunal to conduct an inquiry of
that kind, and to decide upon its results. He
could conceive no advantage in superseding the au-
thority of the Board of Admiralty, by making them su-
bordinate to the authority of the Coramission :ought to
be established. lle apprehended that the Board of Ad•
miralty took the course which the Hon. and Gallant
Officer d
rho
e
oppo3ite recommended the Commission composed
r would
clearly a
t rust ln
of naval officers to take. It did avail itself of the aseist-
!ulnooo,Neor men distinguished for science and for practieal
k
prlersetnhitsßCooarmdmoir Assiodn a
asl apm
ty wpooui
implied, and there could be no doubt but both Boards
rwould come into collision in a manner which would be
fa
from serviceable to the country. He did not object
to the course which the Hon. and Gallant Officer had
taken as to the propriety of calling in the aid of men of
science. When they looked to the immense sums of
money expended in the building of ships, he must consi-
der
it of the utmost importance that any experiment for
improving the construction of vesselseshould be fairly
tested. What he contended for was, that as the Board Admiralty WaS responsible for the expenses of the navy,
its authority ought to be enforced, and they should be
entrusted with lie conduct of experiments. Why the
hoard had contemplated
these
experiments by calling
for an
additional
number of seamen, for, otherwise, those
experiments could not be mule. If the navy was re
d
ed to the bare number of men consistent with
the
national safety these trials could not be made. M• s Right
Hon.
Friend at the head of the Admiralty
expressed
himself •
entirely of the same opinion with the Gallant
Officer opposite in tsis respect, and even invited
the assistance of the Gallant Commodore, and offered to
place at his disposal a steam-vessel, which his •
great
naval knowledge and experience would enable him to
superintend.—(Bear, hear, and cheers.)
Sir C.
NAPIEB—I have been applying these twenty
years for it.
Sir R. PEEL—And the
Gallant Officer has now, from
a Board of Admiralty composed of hien tif adverse
politics, obtained now 'h yin at he rintless y sought for
during twenty years.hear.) Could • n '
thing
be a stronger proof ear'
•
the proper
constitution of
the present Board of Admiralty
hear.) The
Board was presided ore
member of the r by, the most
navaldistinguished
member hear.) The
Gallant Officer said that
Board was formed from party
considerations, and 0:
Ad-
ministration he it there was a change of Ad-
e-might be a member of the Board of
ee • Well he (Sir R. Peel) would think the
...owe a. ,judicious one. The Ron. and Gallant Officer
might speak of his friends beside him, but surely a
Board of which such man as Admiral Otago and the lion.

and Gallant Officer near him (Mr. Corry) were members,
could not well be censured for its party bias. With re-
spect to the defence of the dockyards, to which the
Noble Lord had alluded—by whom were the dockyards
neglected ?—(Hear, hear.) 'Was this Government
chargeable with it ? Why it was the present Govern-
ment that originated a plan for their defence. There
was no necessity for a Commission—they had had a
Commission already—and the subject had already under-
gone the fullest consideration from the highest autho-
rides in the country. He could assure the Noble Lord
I,hat the subject had not escaped the atten-
tion of the Government, and the result would
be seen in the measures which they would
propose in the course of the present session.—(Hear,
hear, hear.) The censure of the Noble Lord on
this head did not apply to the present Government.
So much for the particular motion ; but the Noble Lord
opposite had considered this a legitimate opportunity
`'or making observations with respect to the foreign policy
of the Government, and particularly regarding the right
of search. He wished the Noble Lord would bring this
matter to the test, and take the vote of the House
of Commons on it. The Noble Lord recollected per-
fectly well the result of his motion relative to
the Ashburton Treaty, or as he called it, Capita-
, lation," and did not like even to make a motion for the
production of papers, the House had on that occa-
eion shown so little sympathy with the Noble Lord.
Li The treaty made by Lord
.Ashburton with the United
States had teen entirely approved of by Parliament, and
whose vote had declared it consistent with the honour
and interests of England. The Noble Lord, he repeated,
would never forget that unfortunate result of his attempt
to depreciate the services of Lord Ashburton. The
Noble Lord, fearful of encountering the opinion of the
House by making a specific motion, had introduced the
discussion on the navy estimates. The Noble Lord
talked of concession, but at the same time admitted the
propriety of conciliatory language. hut he (Sir R. Peel)
felt convinced that the Noble Lord had no reason to
complain of any undue concession, and the use of tem
perate language would not make them less firm and de-
termined, though they were certainly anxious to pre-
serve the peace of Europe. If the Noble Lord ()lei& cted
to the conduct of England with respect to the affairs of
France and Morocco, and France and Otaheite,
let him bring forward a spec.fic motion on the subject.
He thought that the most had been made of those op •
pertunities, and if concessions had been. made, they
had been made with the especial object of preserving
the good understanding that had hitherto existed be-
tween the two countries, and surely it would not be
conceived, that the peace between two such countries
as these should be risked or destroyee for the sake of the
protectorship of two small islands in the Pacific, 8,000
or 10,000 miles from the particular sphere of the French
Government ; and he did not think that the good un-
derstanding which had subsisted between this country
and France should be destroyed on account of
this difference occasioned by the island of Otaheite.
With respect to the right of search, the Noble
Lord appeared disturbed because the most eminent
men, each of them known for his hostility to the
slave trade, the Duke de Broglie and DI. Lushingten,
had united together for the purpose of ascertaining
khether or not it were possible to substitute some ottu r
measure on the part of Engl aid and France for the
suppression of the slave trade, that should be more
efficacious than the right of search. No doubt it was
to be lamented that a public feeling should have arisen
in France which tended to paralyse the efforts made to
carry out the right of search. If England and France
cordially co-operated, it appeared to him that that mea-
sure was more efficacious than any, but its efficacy must
greatly depend upon the cordiality with which it was
carried on.—(Hear.) The treaties alluded to by the
Noble Lord, in the case of countries not very willing to
act upon treaties, were not very specific and particular.
It is true that at a certain period there was a strong dis-
inclination, on the part of France, to exercise this right
of search, and a strong opposition arose against it. But
when had that opposition arisen, and who had been the
cause of it ? It was after the events of the Syrian
campaign in 1840, when the Noble L.ird was Minister
for Foreign Affairs, that the opposition to the right of
search arose. Nothing of it was heard in 1838 or 1839;
and without entering into the question of who was
to blame, it was certain that in 1840 there was an inter-
ruption to our amicable relations with France. It was
no inherent opposition to the right of search which led
first to the vote in the Chambers, then to the non-ratifi-
cation of the treaty, and then to the strong exhibition of
feeling in France km. the substitution of some other mode
of suppressing the slave trade. The Government were
not to blame that they found that feeling prevailing
when they succeeded the Noble Lord in the administra •
tion of foreign affairs ; but if that feeling was in exist-
ence in France, it was the policy pursued in France and
England which was the exclusive cause of the -opposi
tion manifested in France to the right of search.—
(Hear, hear.) If the Noble Lord thought the Govern-
ment were wrong in not resenting; the non-ratification
of the treaty, there was a period in which he should
have called the attention of the House to it. The Noble
Lord, as he (Sir Robert Peel) understood, said that
the right of search was now suspended. It was not so.
Did the Noble Lord believe that these two eminent men,
the Duke de Broglie and Dr. Lushington, would have
assumed the functions they had consented to undertake if
they were not animated by the sincerest desire to put an
end to the slave trade. Dr. Lu.hington could not be
charged with a desire to promote the political objects of
the present Government ; he saw that the right of
search had become ineffective, and he had only consented
to accept these ditties in the earnest hope that it might
be possible to devise something more effectual. lie (Sir
Robert Peel) believed, in spite of what had been
advanced by the Noble Lord. that the efferts that htel
been made on the crust of Africa had been most be•
neficial, and he trusted it was needless to say that the
Government would not give their consent to the substi
tution of any plan that should be less effectual for its
object than the' right of :search.—(Hear, hear.) If some
other plan should be found, then it was an agreement
with France that the right of search should be sus
pended, not abandoned, until it could be proved by ex-
perience whether or not the new experiment were effi-
cacious. If France would consent to keep a very large
naval force upon the coast of Africa, cordially acting
with us in the determination to make every effort for
the suppression of the slave trade, and if no conside-
ration on the score of expense were suffered to
interfere with this cordial union, he believed that that
course might be more efficacious than the right of search
as it now existed It was in the hope of devising
some such means that the commission had been consti-
tuted. With respect to other matters touched upon by
the Noble Lord. as the Noble Lord opposite (Lord Jobe
Russell) had given notice of a motion upon the subject,
tie (Sir R. Peel) thought it better to abstain from any
reference to it, or matters connected with it, until the
Noble Lord had had the opportunity of bringing for-
ward that notice. But when the Noble Lord (Lord
Palmerston) said that, in making the agreement which
had been negotiated by Lord Ashburton, that the
Government had acted inconsistently with the honour,
and had sacrificed the interests of this country, to
that statement he (Sir Robert Peel) felt bound to give
a prompt, a most distinct, and peremptory denial.—
(Hear, hear.) He believed that no such sacrifice had
been made. The Minister of the United States had
been charged, as this Government had been charged,
with sacrificing the interests of America ; and because
he had made an agreement with this country for the
interests of peace, he had been denounced by the
war party with having consented to an arrange-
ment that was subversive of the honour of his
country. And so it would ever be. If two great
countries, animated by a sincere desire to preserve
peace, attempted, in a spirit of mutual conciliation,
to effect an adjustment by which immediate danger was
removed, no doubt it would suit the views of party men
in either country to denounce the Ministers by whose
agency such an adjustment had been made; and if those
Ministers were not supported in conciliatory endeavours,
there was no security in any country against the risk of
constant hostilities —(Hear, hear.) He did not believe
that either that House or the country disapproved of
the efforts that had been made to maintain peace.—
(Hear, hear.) He did not believe that that House or
the country would think that the power of the Govern
ment to resist unjust demands, or to maintain the inte-
rests or honour of the country when the maintenance of
them became necessary, had been in the slightest degree
impaired, 'either by the holding of conciliatory language,
by the direct avowal of a desire to preserve peace, or by
having consented to compromise, Where-compromise was
possible, and where mutual concession had put an end to
immediate danger.,-(Hear, hear.) He did not believe
that past moderation would incapacitate the Govern-
ment from acting with vigour, firmness, and determina-
tion, whenever it might become necessary to assert them.
—(Cheers.)
Lord J. RUSSELL was astonished at the tone assumed
by the Right "Hon. Gentleman with respect to the obser-
vations of his Hon. Friend. He thought there was suffi-
cient reasons for making an inquiry respecting the in-
crease of the naval force upon the coast of Africa, when
there was an increase of the navy estimates de-
manded.—(Hear.) There might be reasons for this in-
crease of the estimates, but there were also other reasons
for the observations of his Hen. Friend ; and it was
necessary for the satisfaction not only of the House, but
also of the country, that these questions should be ex-
amined. There was certainly very great excitement
respecting the suppression of the slave trade. His Noble
Friend (Lord Palmerston) had stated that Lord Castle•
reagh and the i)uke of Wellington had thought the right
of search a point of the greatest importance. It had been
written, signed, and ratified b y them ; and was the
House now to be told that it should be abandoned
and yet Government proposed, at the same time, that the
estimates for the navy should be increased in order to
suppress the slave trade. Was it not under such circum-
stances excusable in his Noble Friend to say, " We do
not object to this vote, but is it not fair, at least, that we
should know .the purpose for which this money is wanted
—the object to which it is to be applied ere we grant it?"
The Right Hon. Baronet, in reply, had taunted the
Noble Lord with the course he had taken with respect
to what was called th • Ashburton treaty. Ile did not
think the Right Hon. Baronet had any reason to plume
himself on the result of that treaty.—(Hear, hear.) The
proper merits of that question
Noble LweinootrT be lost sight
of in the able speech of the
Wan the treaty in effect? His Noble FriendWthneyS' wechrnet-
tary of State for Foreign Affairs at that time had in-
formed the House that the American Government bad
advanced certain claims, and they (the British Govern.
ment) had made their claims, which, nut being
acceded to, • they gave the question up. The
American Government said, if we accede to your
propositions, shall you, in return, give us the navigation
of' the river St. John's. Many persons might think that
a great portion of the territory given up to the Arne-
ricane was scarcely to be considered either as
a loss or gain ; but then they ought to consider
the manner in which that territory was trans-
ferred ? Was it fair to the Madawaskwa villagers
that they, if willing to abide under the protection
of 4er Dritsuuio JAaJesty, should Pir trash:Ted