The Sun.
London, England, 1842-02-24 00:00:00

Gallant Admiral was bound to appear before that House
but let them recollect that the present Parliament might,
be at an end before he came back, and the next Parlia-
ment could not, in that case, punish him. But let them
suppose a man served with a subpoena by the Court of
Queen's Bench, and he declared that he would not obey,
an attachment would be issued against him for that de-
claration, and he (Mr. O'Connell) had no hesitation in
saying the Court would consider his conduct in the light
of contempt? and would put him into custody where he
would be sure to be kept to be forthcoming on the day
of trial. He (Mr. O'Connell) thought' then that all the
justice of the case consisted in complying with the pre-
sent motion. No inconvenience could, as he said, arise
to the Gallant Officer from the course pointed out, but
great inconvenience might arise from the absence of the
documents. They could not possibly refuse the motion
without probably doing great injury to the cause of the
petitioners.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL was not prepared to
accede to the motion of the lion. Member opposite, or to
the proposition of the Right lion. and Learned Gentle-
man the Member for Cork. What were the facts of the
case ? Why that the solicitor to the sitting Member
had asserted that Sir Thomas Cochrane had written cer-
tain letters in the newspapers, and those letters he be-
lieved were important. That Sir Thomas Cochrane
was going abroad ; and, therefore, it was asked that he
should be ordered to attend at the bar, in order to state
what those letters were. Now, as far as he could under-
stand the subjeet, such a proceeding was contrary
to every principle of Parliament. Election petitions were
tried by an Act of the Legislature, and not by the House.
Before that Committee witnesses were bound to attend
they were there examined upon oath, and were bound to
produce every paper or dopment they had. But the
proposition of the Hon. Member was that, because the
sitting Member was afraid he should not be able to
have the witness before the Committee, he was anxious
that the House should interfere. The Hon. Member for
Cork had asked whether the House had not the power
to prevent a witness from leaving this country ; all he
could say was, that if it had, it had a power which no
Court of Justice in the country had hitherto exercised.
He entirely disagreed with the Right Hon. Member for
Cork, that if a person stated that he believed a witness
would not attend at the trial, that he might be placed in
custody, in order that his attendance might be ensured at
the trial. Such a course would be against all law, because
a witness when served with a subpoena was bound to
obey it, and he was liable to be attached and punished
if he did not ; but he denied that the Court of Queen's
Bench, or any other Court, had the power to imprison
any individual, in order to ensure his appearance at a
trial. The Hon. Gentleman proposed that Sir Thomas
Cochrane should be brought to the bar and asked if he
had the papers referred to. Why could not that same
question be asked him in the Committee ? He denied
that the House had the power to place him in the cus-
tody of the Sergeant-at-Arms till the petition came on.
Such a proceeding was against all authority. He must
be summoned as a witness, and if he did not attend he
made himself liable for the consequences. Upon what
grounds was this application made ? He did not want
to enter into the merits of this case ; but here the sitting
Member was petitioned against for matters connected
with the last election for. Ipswich, and the Hon. Gentle-
man himself had admitted that Sir Thomas Coch-
rane knew nothing of The last election, had nothing to do
with it.—(No, no.) He had certainly understood that
the documents stated to be in his possession were only
correspondence relating to a former election. It did not
appear in the statement of the Hon. Gentleman that Sir
Thomas Cochrane knew anything whatever of the pre-
sent election. If it was necessary that the House should
possess an additional power of summoning witnesses to
be examined before it—if this House, and the other
House of Parliament, should give them the same power
that had recently been given to the Court of Queen's
Bench, it must be only by an Act of the Legislature
that it could be given. Nor was that power compulsory,
as the Hon. Gentleman supposed; but only went to this,
that where a witness would not be able to attend a
trial, either from ill health, or from being about to
leave the country, the Court was empowered to direet him to
be examined and cross-examined on oath before a Master, and
to produce any documents he might possess, that they might
afterwards be produced upon the trial. If the Hon. Member
thought that the machinery of the House was not sufficient,
the proper course was not for the House to interfere, but f3r him
to propose an improvement of the Grenville Act, so as to give
the House, or its Committee, the same'power as that given to
the Court of Queen's Bench, of examining br cross-examining
witnesses upon oath. If Sir Thomas, Cochrane were sub-
pmnaed as a witness by the Court of Queen's Bench,
that Court had the power by the recent Act to
examine him before a Master, and to order him to pro.
duce any papers he might have; but the House had no such ma-
chinery to carry this into effect. If it was adefect, it was a defect
in the law itself; and he thought the Hon. Gentleman would on
reflection hardly wish to see this power exercised in this ease
as it would be required in every other. Supposing there was a
witness who was keeping out of the way, what would be the
consequence? Why, that this House would be made the
arena for the trial, and the party would have to be brought
here instead of before the Committee. He would put it to
the Hon. Gentleman whether this House,sias the place where
the question could be entertained. If there was a difficulty in
the existing law, and it was necessary to give the House the
same power as the Court of Queen's Bench, it must be by an
Act of Legislature, by an act for the improvement of the trial
of election petitions, and not by the interference of the House
itself.

Mr. O'CONNELL rose to explain. He was really surprised
to find that the Solicitor-General should have so entirely mis—
, taken, him as to attribute to him a statement that a subpoena
would:be issued against &witness, and that. having been served
-with it, on an allegation, being made in the Court that he was
about to withdraw, then that the Court would attach him. This
was only a part of what he said. What he said was, that if a
person were served with a subpoena, and he declared that he
would not obey, then a writ in that case would issue from the
Queen's Bench to attach him for contempt of Court. The
Solicitor-General also said that he (Mr. O'Connell) had said
that they could examine Sir Thomas Cochrane at the bar ;
what he said was that they could !:now whether Sir Thomas
Cochrane had those documents, and was about to go away
without producing them ; and he (Mr. O'Connell) said that
his examination could not be given in evideace before the
Committee, but that his papers could, and that so far the
House might go.
Mr. AGLIONBY said the question before the House was,
whether a witness being within the jurisdiction of the House,
and being about to go out of it, was by an analogy to the
Courts of Law amenable to the jurisdiction of the House,
and whether they had power to get the papers they wanted.
He apprehended the analogy was completely similar to
those cases in which the Courts of "Law examined the '
witness upon interrogatory points ; and it would be mon-
strous if the House had not, by analogy, power to
bring the Gallant Officer to the___bar, where especially
the evidence he could give was admitted on the other
side to be of the most material importance.' They
ought, therefore, to send for the witnesses. What would be
the effect of refusing the present motion ? Why the Gallant
Officer could go abroad, and the purposes of justice would be
defeated. Any party possessing documents in cases of the
same kind need only place them in the possession of an officer
leaving the country, and they might thus be removed beyond
the jurisdiction of the House. It was, in his opinion, essen-
tial to the purposes of justice and the dignity of the House,
that they should examine into cases of this kind, and not
allow justice CO be defeated by contrivances of such a nature.
Mr. THOMAS DUNCOMBE said that though he had
seconded the motion of his Hon. Friend, he thought it right to
state, after what he had heard from such high legal authority
as the Attorney-General and Solicitor-General, that he could
not say a sufficient case had been made out to call Sir Thomas
Cochrane to the bar of the House. But lie thought it equally
clear that the House ought to have the power of compelling
parties to give evidence in cases to be tried before them. He ,
thought they had a right to require the Ministers of the Crown
to give an assurance that Sir Thomas Cochrane would not be
sent out of the country in the service of the Crown until he
had produced the documents in question in obedience to the
warrant of the Speaker. The Learned Attorney-Geoeral and
the Learned Solicitor- General had both stated that the evi-
dence of Sir Thomas Cochrane was not material to the case.
Now, he hardly thought it was fair in his Hon. Friend to turn
round upon him with that assertion, after having inter-
fered to prevent him from explaining to the House his
views as to the materiality of Sir Thomas Cochrane's evi-
dence. But when he looked at the Speaker's warrant, what
did he find there stated?--" You, Sir 'Thomas Cochrane, are
to bring with you all papers and letters, And all copies of let-
ters or correspondence, between yourself and other parsons
on the subject of a sum of money required to be paid by you
previous to receiving the support of the Tory party in Ips- ,
wich as a candidate at the late election ; and you are to bring
with you all letters, or copies of letters, in your possession
on the same subject." Now, that did relate to the recent ,

election, and not to .the election at which Sir Thomas COch:

rune had been a candidate; and he (Mr. T. Duncombe)
would say, that if Sir Thomas Cochrane had been engaged
in any manner in a negotiation for the payment of a
sum of money to the Tory party at Ipswich to secure their
support to him as a candidate at the last election,
it would be disgraceful to the Tory party—it would be dis-
graceful to the servants of the Crown—it would be disgraceful
to her Majesty's Government, if he were allowed to go to
China before he had satisfied the requirements of the Ilotue.—

(Cheers.) He did not think a case had been made out for
calling Sir Thomas Cochrane to the bar of, the House, but he
thought• the House had a right to expect that the Right Hon..
"Baronet at the head of the Government should give an assur-
ance that Sir Thomas Cochrane should not leave this country
on the „service of the Crown until he had obeyed the Speaker's
warrant.

Sir ROBERT PEEL said that the Hon. Gentleman who
had given notice of the motion, had, in bringing it forward,
felt so doubtful as to its success, that he had said if any person
could suggest any other course he would be ready to adopt
it. And after a debate of half an hour, the Honourable
Gentleman who had seconded it, had admitted that
in his opinion, this motion could not be sustained.
It was agreed on all hands that it would be establishing a
most dangerous precedent to call this Gentleman to the bar,
and one from which he believed every Member would shrink.
In the first place, it was doubtful if evidence so taken could
be rendered available. He apprehended it could not. The
power of Courts of Justice in such case; was derived from Sta-
tute, and the House could have no such power except it were
given it by Statute. The House could not examine any in-
dividual on oath at the bar, and it could net exercise the power
sought to be exercised from any analogy between its functions
and those of Courts of Justice. The Hon. Gentleman asked
the Government to give an assurance that this officer should
be detained until he had appeared before the Election Com-
mittee. That was quite a new proposal, and one requiring
great deliberation before an answer could be given.—
( Hear, hear.) It would require the most serious con-
sideration before such an assurance could be given.
He would admit the object to be bona fide, and that the party
believed the evidence of Sir T. Cochrane was material, and
that there was nothing in the case but what appeared ; but
observe, other parties may make use of it as a precedent, and
allege what they did not feel to be the case.—( Hear.) He
conceived the issuing of the Speaker's warrant was a matter of
course, and that any person going to him and stating that a cer-
tain person's evidence was necessary, would obtain a warrant
from the Speaker, and he would not make any inquiry as to the
mr.teriality of such evidence. The immediate departure of an
officer might be essential to the public service of the country,
and if he might be retained not by the House of Commons, but
by an individual alleging that his evidence was necessary for
certain election purposes, the services of such an officer might be
lost to the country, or at least suspended till the election peti-
tion was tried, which might not be till June.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE—It will come on in May.
Sir R. PEEL—But that was not material. He thought
he bad said enough to convince the Hon. and Learned Gentle-

man—since it was e;icienifiis mind was open to conviction,
because he had already abandoned his motion—( Laughttl)
that he should be very cautious how he kept back an officer
from the service of the country, not because the House of Com.
mons interfered, but because a private individual stated that

wishedsu ehant
oeffip rcoenr ohuandc einno hispo s possessionposse
i certainon, 'bat dire wmouelnct2siitle
igrioymingthaenpyuabli7saenreveicet
d to the
Mr. WASON begged to say one word with ragas
w.ll
.hat Sir T. Cochrane would be detain
statements of the Attorney and Solicitor-Generals, and in_ n,..„
the Right Hon. Baronet had partly concurred, that if in_re:,
were to act in that case it might be hereafter used as a pre',
dent by the House ; but it should be recollected that the
vidual in this case admitted himself to have been a party t'
the transaction.—( Hear, hear.)
The motion was then withdrawn.
PlUnßanLalwCerßtUo SaIgNuEesStiSon.—frTomHENfrEXCHEQUER BILL,
Sir ROBERT PEEL said, it was his intention not to
teed with any public business until the resolutions in the frpo,
mittee on Corn-laws should have been decided.--(B
hear.) The strongest representations had been
to him of the inconvenience already occasioned to 'flot
corn trade by the uncertainty.—( near, hear.) !le 'Tot
responsible for the delay.—( Hear, hear.) He coul
to
answer for the Course which Hon. Members might shpts
take. But he though it of so mach importance, that he
be enabled to bring in the Bill, that he would not interri
on his own part any impediment in the way of Preeee
with the resolutions, by wagbrinin forward any pubic totem
1,
Mr. F. BARING asked he then to understand that he
subject of the Exchequer Bills was not to be brought for "
according to the announcement of the Right
man the Chancellor of the Exchequer? resolw
Mr. GOULBURN—Not until after the Corn-law
tions have been disposed of.--( Hear, hear.) t
Mr. HAWES wished to know if it was intended to go of
the question of the Exchequer bills, which the Chance t 0•
tis
the Exchequer announced it as his intention to bring .t,
the
morrow ( Thursday), until all the questions involved
.ed
proposed Corn-law of the Right Hon. Baronet were dine
of ? It certainly was quite impossible in any case
throu ;h all the resolutions in one night.—(Hear.) dir
Sir ROBER PEEL trusted that he had not shown 211,0 did
po.ition to prevent the discussion of the resolutianis 20 the
not mean in what he had said, that he would postponek; sre
other public business of the House, as far as it lay with, °sliest',
til the whole matter in all its details was disposedlus'—'s, the
hear.) He spoke only of the preliminary resolutilii:
Committee, and not of the subsequent stages of•the,'''' opt
Mr. C. WOOD said that no one complained of isles'
Honourable Gentleman as having impeded the diSsse;
Gewritle•
All that had been asked was whether the question of the wet.
quer bills would be brought on according to the an/win-1000
He was under the impression:that the mod m, with re Torii:
the Exchequer bills, would have been brought on 'Jaded wit'
day, and that the Corn.law debate was to be proce,ev-sl, that,
on Rriday. The Right Honourable Baronet nog "e
all the ether business of the House should be sus2,_ceseliouse,
from any pressure from his (Mr. Wood's) side of tll,eu, 113018
but in order to give precedence to the Corn-laws. '''',l"es that
of the business of the House was to be postponed, in cr--,ilyes'
the Corn-law debate should go on from day t° sf that,
( Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Wood), did not complain Lbethe
but he wished to ask the Right Honourable Baronets-1s Beni
it was his intention that the Corn-law debate should ta'"iisa;
eedence of all notices upon the days for which they were of the
and that it should be proceeded with before the orders"
Nouse were disposed of ? of
Sir R. PEEL stated that that was quite in the discreticikll
the Members of Parliament who had given those notices, vat
he could do on the part of her Majesty's Governmentsvi:t
to interpose any other business until the House had at.' 100
posed of the resolutions with respect to the Ccr°ol
He could only trust that other branches of the
would entertain a similar opinion : but of course he,e°,et tht
attempt to control them; they had now been occupied
motion of the Hon. Member for Wolverhampton since
day last.
Several HON. AlEmazas—Friday, Friday.
tl' the,
Sir R. PEEL—At all events, the Hon. Gentleman's the,
must be disposed of before any progress could be made wl
Corn-law question, and he was anxious it should be deters re'
as soon as possible ; because, from all the information 110, ":",,ii!!
ceived upon the subject, he was quite sure be was amainaccordance with the interests of the public in doing a.
power to take the sense of the House as early as possit lei IISO
Mr. HAWES thought the statements of the WO do'
Baronet were somewhat at variance with the statement of set
other Right Hon. Gentleman who was also a kfembee,,°ofr
Majesty's Government; he alluded to the Chancellor of t'
chequer,
"
Sir R. PEEL said he was quite aware what was thel
sition of Members of Parliament with respect• to leg"' far s!
He thought it very desirable that they should adhere, 0,1 101
possible, to the general regulation of the House ; andieese!"/
Hon. Member claimed his right to press a motion on else"
day, he was not disposed to interfere with such an exec
his discretion.—( Hear hear)
Colonel RAWDON' rose. to ask the Noble Lord the Ser;
tary for Ireland if he intended to bring forward toset"eitb
(this day) the measure of which he had given noticeoicl
respect to Presbyterian mixed marriages. He thought le Di
persons in Ireland would be filed with considerable idaretlie
the announcement of the Right Hon. Baronet, that noretie°
business would be proceeded with until the Corn-law cla
had ben settled.—(AL
made so laugh.) odi
Mre. O'CONNELme observation on the ea."
ject which was inaudible.
Sir R. PEEL was understood to say, that in matter 't
serious a nature, every facility would be given to hick,
House to adopt measures for remedying the evil %chi"
arisen from the decision of the Judges.
BUILDINGS REGULATION BILL.
On the motion for the second reading of this Bill, , ode°
Mr. F. MAULE moved that the Bill should be routs inter'
time that day six months. The Bill was so worded as °ties t°,
fere with the privileges of that House. It was his intei4rej
move, some future day, that the subject should be i•tr,o
Pot
the Committee up stairs. It was extremely desirable
an end to the practice which so universally existed t", rev
towns of running up houses of the worst description_tt hist;
deuces for the poor. For the present, he would' eor;etii°
self with moving that the Bill should be read a seconuti
sea
day six months.
bsolute 1 tg
Lord ASHLEY said he could speak to the a egg s,
speedy necessity for some measure being adopted t„s° tonl:/e
the manlier in which buildings were erected in larts",o
No one could have &wide& of the evils which arose firer
t of
a mattt,bie th
masses et the people in populous cities from the Wan
regulations on this subject. s me
Lord SANDON said it was ver desirable that in ie
sure of this sort they should ptrhoecyee.ahlovneidryonclayu.ataiodusita, bele eatst'
their endeavours to prevent, south, Loeb::
ing evils. He thought the Committeelip stairs roathe n:an
them to produce such a Bill as would be adapted Noble
of the different localities.
,ith the' early
bJe.hGinlidAbHitnAM( said he perfectly agreed ilsstwe
Lerd Ashley) that this '" °' had
Lord behind
affected the health of the country and large' fi Bille fie
population of large towns. It appeared that l's-leasan.'' of
been brought forward by the Right Hon. Ge_lfik Joser is
(Sir J. Graham) did not pretend to pledge binia7splti
the provisions of these Bills. There was one.intoos.,' "sees` "f
the Borough Improvement Bill, which enable-'` h.ratss t
Councils to mortgage, without limitation, the borotitoped theori
the purpose of effecting these improvements., Of s
would be no delay in coming forward with these two vied'
helhad no doubt that a fair and impartial measure ‘ t,
effected. ' • •
f Kr' t
Mr. FOX MAULE had now to repeat his moll t:nas
ing his other Bill. He had great satisfaction in' 'the •
50.1°,1
the Right Hon. Baronet was undertaking a Bin °nht, thst:a
of drainage, and he (Mr. Fox Maule) had no dou trot
of the three Bills, some good measures would be °flash' tot
He should be happy to afford all the assistance he e° eo!
Right Hon. Baronet. esinsa
Mr. MARK PHILIPS was glad to see this arrao;st
made between the Right Hon. Gentlemen. This sui'o hAiile
of most pressing importance, as hitherto speculations .
ing3 in towns had no other check than their own °ste 00 I
et
would ask, however, whether the Right Hon. Baronet ier
to refer all the Bills to the Committee up stairs?
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said the Government wouldfero
take the Drainage Bill on their own responsibility, r`
the other two Bills to the Committee up stairs.
'1
The Order of A
the Day forDJOURNED resumingDEßATE. de
0
the adjourned for
having been read, epee. so
Mr. EWART said that he would have preserved
.b,.ve
the present, but that it appeared to him he would
guilty of suppression of opinion, amounting alnir's,tchlie_,
I cerity, if he did not express the disappointment w"' erorre
he believed his constituents also, felt at the measure,s`ress°,;e
by the Right Hon. Baronet the First Lord of the ,:issr°oo
On the 18th of September last, the Right Honourable isDo of
said that it was not likely he would go through tphselt it
daily imposed on him, if he should not possess the
log I(
proposing to Pnrlianient those measures which llev;ett; oie
his duty to the public welfare to bring tbrife-oes';ists
there was an assurance from the Right deletai-D'',
Baronet that he had acted up to that t 't et
he (Mr. Ewart) could not for a monilhe r3rojer
lieve him ; but he must state that there was, on • g
the country, a strong feeling that he had been aclerebieet
other influences than those of his own mind ; thascee ib°
been influences behind the Cabinet, greater than liee t 0 the
itself. He (Mr. E.) believed if it had been left govislieoe'
Right Hon. Baronet himself, he would have, in A" 000 opt,
dictates of his own opinions, given them a measures sib'
ducive to the interests of the country than the P so ,t 0'
He (Mr. Ewart) believed he would have done j. Woe
out adopting the system of the sliding scale, :arse see°
a fixed duty.—_( Hear. ) There was another cbaseciple
to the Right Hon. Baronet, which it would, sr', es,
well if he had adopted. He might have adopted t"i't
of a duty declining from year to year, until at last been ;lig.
tirely extinguished. , Such a course would have, the ,00;
policy. Until some such principle was adopted oor, ,its
policy.
Hon. Baronet would neither see the country re,se of "„, the
tion tire. When the Right Hon. Baronet at the 0-1:00°,1, It"
Session requested time to consider this important "I oh', be
country had a right to expect that the proP,°'3 13';
would introduce might be mature and sera' -deelarir
final. But they had heard the Right 11°"„,eet ,
tenet the Secretary for the Home Depart odd
0..
that so far from anticipating that the measure, gotort t"
he expected that it would continue to noir aria""e'etes,
changes. Instead of adopting the doctrine ° of Pessrjenel,
Right Hon. Baronet had adopted the doctrineed t°
mutability ; and they would seem to be destilar Pr'. AT,
a succession of changes until the people saw only
carried into effect which they had so long
fuortgese,:at
the Legislature. It would appear, there
was the scale of the Government a sliding hhi,,,,:stsbnthuoleftth
the Cabinet itself was a sliding Cabinet. Sueciarati° 110,0
inference which he could draw from the tt for the dioree*,
Right Honourable Baronet the Secretary eses ,
`that the eit''
Department. All parties agreed d, as ta ef,'
,d.
prevailed in the country, and they only differe
...war to 0
e,
of that distress, and the nature of thee rdioressAoseget
The Right Hon. Baronet had attributed th oneteeY 500°0
circulation, to over-production, and to th.i.e.mbt fion•or cre'ro
ments in the United States. But the aleridations tosis°
took the worst means to reduce that over-p,lljea ono
a market for over-production ; and, in at... 0 Arne;
Jo coo,:o
was the least adapted to place our trade•
wmiothrefeoglaidrdbtaosi the e
incumbent on this country to extend its ifaineot.t.co.
At t
Unitedn •ha tsttiamt
States
wereo
f Arat
ehreralc
a_t
rkeTsi treegY %el ati tt
tb
with America, it was at the present Arneo'old cee'rte
time the new tariff was operatinhg
question the to
old
duties were to be lowered by it, and t therefore hish Thee
on in Congress in July next. This wasee „ilia,
:try. "
offer to that country those commercial "
ith this _ tbetloVo,
extend and not limit their intereoursew; ind creeo°,
rtr
giving every facility to the trade in el:iron
_the privet
were other inducements, t which ouef LA" t the 11.00 °f lag
meet the,Northern States weremaintthi e g
Souther!)
_Sr toe otbe
tention to their own manufactures ; introductl°ll. whaefore,
the other hand, were in favour of the_on,
of therf se of
factures hem other countries, and freedplow°, t
Middle States were in a state of s_u_siPenese
States twasteeolootri
was the time to bring over those 1!le e that
ts itift
this country; and yet this was.
aimmeasurso she ',noes;
for the purpose of introducing et,ii pp i.!°l,
present, which prevented this country Would
_l,ers oft
States of America the trade in con/ the connetary ;‘,„l
When they talked of the distracted , tho t sa thi!
cial to the growers of that oountry
s3tnautrof
ought to consider meeri
thettne; had ectauths
tem of America, they
rn from send t.°tioos
otohe
It was 'r°"" eiedera"soe'
in other ways•
that the were no
r
country payments .
tes; uti th ewy ahs a tah arte ftahseed
•0 this country laws lan°
that had been established l
scantly unsettling the conimeilci
told n prosee
between this andsother countries,
turbances had arisen in America.
anltihetqls.crtietyrigidelastf°l.
to
intearki:atnnse wc °e
re obliged...