The Sun.
London, England, 1842-04-06 00:00:00

to his motion respecting the new towns, to move that in one
half of the old towns the averages should be taken by the ex-
cise offieers, and that in the other half they should continue to
be taken by the inspectors, as at present, in order to try fairly
what would be the effect of the increase i vigilance of the ex •
cise officers. He trusted the Committee would adopt the clause
as it stood.
Mr. P. M. STEWART said that he considered the system
of averages as one of the great evils inseparable from the slid-
ing scale.—( Hear, hear.) if they were to legislate until
doomsday, they would never do away with the inherent vice
of the system of averages.—( Hear, hear.) In Scotland, the
averages were struck before a Jury, in the presence of the
Sheriff ; yet, even under that system, there were constant
complaints of fraud. It was impossible to prevent fraud in
striking the averages.—( Hear, hear.) It was, however, their
duty to do the best they could. He thought the addition of the new
towns was a great element of correction in taking the averages.
The additional 299 towns was made for the purpose of obt dn-
ing a bona fide return of the prices of wheat throughout the
country. The greater the number of towns from which the
averages were taken the tnore they scattered the power, and
rendered powerless those who attempted fraud is the markets.
lie ( Mr. Stewart) was, therefore, surprised to hear Hon. Gen-
tlemen on that side, who like him condemned the Bill in prin-
ciple, but who thought it their duty to make the best of it—he
was surprised at the arguments used in favour of a restricted
number of markets. The old system included towns which
aught not to have been included, and excluded others. Now
the nee: list remedied this. He had only one other remark to
make, and that was that when the Right Hon. Baronet was in
search of good markets only, why did he not cross the border
and take three or four celebrated markets in the south of Scot-
land? It might be said that they would find but a bad sample
of wheat there, but he begged to say, and there were Hun.
Gentlemen on both sides of the House interested in land, who
would support him, and more especially his Hon. Friend the
Member for Haddington, when he stated that there was no
market in the United Kingdom where there was such fine
wheat or such high prices as the Haddington market, and he
(Mr. P. M. Stewart) asked why, when they were in search of
markets, they did not go to the Haddington and Midlothian
markets ?
Sir R. PEEL said the averages in Scotland were so very
unsatisfactory, that he begged to decline introducing them into
his proposal.—( A laugh. )
Mr. P. M. STEWART denied that. This was a ques-
tion of great importance. The Right Hon. Baronet having
had his joke, he (Mr. P. M. Stewart) begged to say that he
should wish a further reason. He was serious, and ho could
assure them that the markets he had mentioned were two of
the best in Scotland.
Sir R. PEEL made some remark, but in so low a tone of
voice, and with his back to the reporters' gallery, that we did
not hear the observation.
Dr. BOWRING confessed he felt some surprise at the many
observations which had been made with respect to those ave-
rages. He was surprised to hear the advocates of a free-trade
principle receive this new system of averages. The effect of
this new system would be to increase the amount of the duty,
and he thought the lion. Gentleman who had spoken last was
not aware that it must materially affect those interests he had
so well advocated. Now these averages produced an effect,
or they produced none. It was quite elear they interfered with
a great number of arrangements which depended on the old
system, and a great many contracts had been entered into,
grounded on the old system. The Right Baronet proposed to
disturb them, and he (Dr. Bowring) believed it would produce
disadvantages to the interests he was anxious to protect. The
effect of the addition of 150 new towns, would not be to de-
crease the general average. The nearer they went to places of
production, the lower the price would be ;. and the lowering the
prices caused the duty to be raised. The effect of the new
system must be to lower prices, and consequently to in-
crease the duty; and to the extent it was raised, to that
extent would sacrifices be made by those who were al-
ready oppressed by these restrictive and prohibitory duties.
Now, the Right Hon. Baronet was not satisfied with the pre-
sent averages, because the average now taken had a tendency
to diminish the amount of duty ; and he, therefore, proposed
a more stringent system of averages. The public had some
sort of benefit in the collusion or fraud, as it was called, in
raising the plices of corn, in order that the amount of duty
should be lowered, for by that very collusion the price was
lowered to the consumer. It, therefore, did appear to him
that the new system must be pernicious to the consumer. He,
therefore, could wish to see the proposal of the Right Hon.
Baronet worked under the system of the old machinery.
The amendment was then withdrawn.
Mr. WAKLEY said, he thought the proposal of the Right
Hon. Baronet was one that would seriously affect the health of
the community, by being the means of introducing corn that
would be unfit for consumption.—( Hear, hear.) Under
the proposed system of taking the. averages, tlmre would
be the greatest inducement to send wheat of a very inferior
description into the market for the express purpose of saving
the duty. He therefore wished to propose, that nowheat which
should be found to he unfit for the purpose of human food,
should be returned to the excise officers appointed under that
Act. He admitted that there would be difficulty its distin-
guishing the good from the bad. He admitted it would require
cons.derable judgment in the party in all cases, to determine
whether
,the wheat was fl t for food or not. He should therefore
not press the motion to a division, but he had brought it for-
ward in order to its consideration by the Right Hon. Baronet,
for it was really a most important subject, and one that
ought not to be dismissed hastily. But he felt it would be
useless to submit the question in the form of a motion, but he
really hoped the Right Hon. Baronet would give it his attention
Sir R. PEEL said he should not like to leave such a subject
to the judgment of an Excise officer.
Mr. M. GIBSON said the sliding scale did not do what
the Right Hon. Baronet professed, viz. admit corn when it
was wanted, because when corn was scarce there was a great
want of good corn to mix with the inferior kind.
Mr. BROTHERTON said the best thing to do was to
abandon the averages altogether.—( Laughter.) One subject
had not been referred to in the course of these debates, viz.
that of the currency. When they got to a metallic currency the
price of corn would keep low, and the increase of paper
would cause prices to rise. It was, therefore, quite impossible
that the system of averages could be good, and nothing could
convince him that such was the case.

After a few words from Lord WORSLICY and Air. FOR
STER, wkich were inaudible.

Mr, HAVES said he thought what had fallen from the
Hon. Member for Finsbury was of very great importance, and
he hoped the suggestifm would he carried out. '1 he greater
the number of towns, the greater number of places likely to
suffer from an introduction of bad wheat. He hoped the Hon.
Member for Finsbury would press the subject, and he (Mr.
Hawes) should be most happy to give him his vote.
4. Mr. GLADSTONE said the Hon. Member fir Finsbury
admitted that there was great difficulty in carrying his proposal
into effect, and he (Mr. Gladstone) thought this was
the greatest objection to it. The Honourable Gentleman who
had just sat down had advanced his opposition to the proposed
mode of taking the averages, as it would materially in-
crease the introduction of bad wheat. Ile (Mr. Gladstone) .
differed with tha Honourable Gentleman. In the first place
it assumed what was quite contrary to the fact, because it was
assumed that the new towns were merely the centre of produc-
tion, and not the centre of consumption, whereas the new
towns were composed in the same proportion of the producing
towns as the consuming towns are in the old list. It appeared
to him (Mr. Gladstone) that the sales of damaged wheat were
more likely to take place in large towns, as a great quantity
of it was used in manufactures. It was used for the purpose of
making starch. He thought it was perfectly impossible to
separate such wheat from the returns. They might rest cer-
tain of this that very litile such wheat would be entered.
Mr. AGLIONBY said the proposal of the Hon. Member
for Finsbury might be difficult, but it was not itnpossible. He
would take the price of 10s. where the return was made of
corn sold in the market, and that all corn sold for less than
one-third of that price should be excluded from the average.—
Hear, hear.) When the best corn fetched a certain price
that all corn sold at less than one-third of that price should be
included.

Mr. MARK PHILIPS said he wished to correct a
mistake of the Right Hon. the President of the Board of Trade
when he stated that much damaged flour was used in manu-
factures. He ( Mr. M. Phillips) could assure the House
that for the purpose of manufactures the very best sort of
flour was used, and for the purpose of finishing off cottons,
the flour was generally obtained from the United States: The
slightest tendency to unsound flour rendered it unfit for the pur-
pose of the manufacturer.

Mr. WA KLEY said if he had to propose a remedy, it would
be one not relished by the Hon. Baronet, as it would be to, make
the trade in corn entirely free, but that would not exactly suit
the previsions of this Bill —( Hear.)
The clause was then agreed to.
Clauses 10, 11, 12, 13, 14,15, 16, and 17, were also agreed to.
On clause 18 being proposed,
Mr. A GLION BY said, he objected to this clause, because it
nlt place the inspectors in the city of London, and those in
the other, towns in the kingdom, upon the same footing. If
any inspector had been guilty of fraud or misconduct, he
ought to be subject to immediate removal. He also objected to
the proposal to give compensation to the present inspectors.
He thought that where individuals bad not b:•en convicted of
neglect in the performance of their duty, they should be re-
tained in office.

Sir R. PEEL said there was a power vested in the Justices
of the Peace of removing individuals who Lad been guilty of a
clear neglect of duty. It was *considered, however, tint it
might be desirable, in some cases, to relieve from perform-

anCie of the duties of inspection an individual who had been
guilty of no such neglect, and, therefore, a power to that
effect was proposed to be vested in the Treasury. He could
not understand the extreme jealousy of vesting in till!
Executive Government the power of removing the inspectors.
He would venture to promise that in every case of removal the
grounds of it should be stated to the House.
After a few words from Lord WORSLEY arid Colonel Sin.
THORP,

AGLIONBY said he would na trouble the House by
pressing the point which he had brought under their attention,
but he wished to a:lt the Right Hon. Baronet what was the in-
,. .

tention of the Government in proposing these clauses ? Did
they intend to dismiss the present inspectors on giving them
compensation, and vest the duties in the officers of excise ?
Sir ROBERT PEEL—The inspectors' authority would
cease under the new law, but it was the intention of the Go-

vernment to retain every officer qualified for the duties imposed
by the Bill ; but certainly the Government had no intention
of removing them all, and giving them compensation. He
could not state more exactly at present what the Government
would do with those officers, but they would be treated with
every consideration. . _

Clause 18 was then agreed to. Tho following clauses to 23
were next agreed to._ _

Lord WORSLEY postponed his amendments to elauals 23
and 24.

On clause 26 being put,
Mr. THORNELY hoped the advantages of the new law
would be extended to the United States, oy all•wing their ports
to participate ,in the advantages enjoyed by Odessa and the
ports of the Baltic.
Lord WORSLEY rose to propose an amendment to this
clause. He said he was anxious that the averages should be
taken at a longer period than that proposed by the Bill.
lie thought it would be advantageous if the period was ex-
tended to ten weeks instead of five. It would benefit the
farmer by giving a falter average throughout the year, and
be an advantage to the consumer, by giving an opportunity
of getting a supply of wheat from a grater distance. Ile
moved that the blank in line 33 be filled up with the word
nine." The Noble Lord stated, in referring to the great
meeting at Lincoln, that he had asked the opinion of a
staunch Conservative as to the plan of the Right Hon. Ba-
ronet, and he said if he had been in the House he should have
voted against all the propositions of the Right Hon. Baronet.
Col. SIBTHORY opposed the amendment, expressing his
astonishment that the Noble 1 ord should profess himself the
farmers' friend, and yet sit and act with those who were en-
deavouring to ruin them. The Noble Lord wanted to have the
averages extended to ten weeks, because it would facilitate the
importation of corn. Now he ( Col. Sibthorp) was not for an
importation of corn, and he believed the farmers were not for it
either.

Mr. R. PALMER supported the amendment of the Noble
Lord.
Slr. GLADSTONE apprehended that there was no ob-
jection, on principle, to the proposition of the Noble Lord; it
must turn on what would be most convenient in practice. It
must be considered how very differently the proposal would
act under different circumstances.. When prises were rising,
he was afraid it would postpone the reduction, while on
the other hand, when prices were falling, the farmer would be
exposed to foreign competition long after he would otherwise,
be. It was well known that the turns of price in the corn
tnarket were very sharp and sudden, at a particular season ;