The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-25 00:00:00

RAILWAYS.

precise motion on the subject of the charges for fares on
railways.
The amendment having been withdrawn, the resolu-
dolt was agreed to.
NOTICES OF MOTION—AUSTRALIAN FLOUR.
Mr. MUTT gave notice that he would, on this day
fortnight, move a resolution to the effect that it was ex-
pedient to admit wheat flour free in this country fr,,m
Australia on the sane terms as it was admitted from
Canada.
TOBACCO—ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOU:!E
FOR THE WHITSUN HOLIDAYS.
Mr. BLLWITT said that he had a motion for
to-night, for a Bill to repeal the Act which
prevented the growth of tobacco in this country ;
but, before he postponed it, he w ished to know
from the Right Hon. Gentleman at the head of the
Government whether he had made any arrangement
for the adjournment of the House fur the Whitsun
holidays ?—(Laughter.)
Sir 11. PEEL said he was sorry to say he had not
considered the subject; but, speaking upon the moment,
he did not think, considering the state of the public
business, that he could allow u longer time than from
Friday to Wednesday or Thursday.
Mr. BLEWITT then adjourned hi; motion to this day
fortnight.

CHELSEA COLLEGE.
Colonel WOOD gave notice that on the Bth of May he
would move an address to her Majesty, praying that her
Majesty would be graciously pleased to order that the Chelsea
College might be thrown open to the public, under such re-
gulations as might be deemed fit.—( Hear.)
Captain LAYARD inquired of the Government when it
was likely the Chinese batta would be paid ?
Mr. S. HERBERT was understood to say that at the
earliest opportunity steps would be taken respecting it.
DOG STEALING BILL.
Mr. LIDDELL moved for leave to bring in a Bill to prevent
dog stealing, and said he would reserve any statement he had
to make respecting it till a future occasion.
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
RIO JANEIRO.
Mr. M. GIBSON wished to knew if the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman at the head of the Government had any objection to
lay before the House the correspondence which had taken
place between the merchants of Rio Janeiro and her Majesty's
Government, relative to the expiration of the treaty between
this country and Brazil ?
Sir ROBERT PEEL said, if the lion. Gentleman would
repeat his question on Monday, he would give him an answer
then.
CORRESPONDENCE BETWEEN CAPT. MEYNELL,
M.P., AND MR. YOUNG, M.P.
Sir CHARLES NAPIER said he held in his band a very
curious correspondence which had appeared in the public
newspapers—( Great laughter)—as having passed between
Captain Meynell and Mr. Young.—( Renewed laughter.)
1 Here the Gallant Commodore read the correspondence, which
has already appeared in all the newspapers, and which created
continued laughter, and some cries of " Oh, oh. "1
COLLEGE OF SURGEONS.
Colonel WOOD wished to ask the Hon. Member opposite
(Mr. Wakley) whether he intended to fix an early day for his
motion ?
Mr. WA KLEY regretted that he could not possibly bring it
on before Tuesday fortnight.
REPEAL MEETINGS IN IRELAND.
Colonel VERNER said he had a question to a-k the Right
Hon. Gentleman her Majesty's Secretary of State for Ire-
land, and he did so because he had received requests to that
effect from a large number of people in the south of Ireland.
The question was—were the Executive Government in Ire
land aware that a repeal demonstration was about to take
place 'at Dundalk, on the first of May, at which Mr. O'Connell
was to be present, and for which invitations had been sent
through the country as far as Belfast, requesting people to
attend. If so, he wished to know would the Government put
a stop to this meeting in accordance with the law as laid down
by the law officers of the Crown? He had to apologise to the
Right Hon. Gentleman for not giving him notice, of his inten-
tion to ask this question ; but he had not had time to do so,
as, between the time that would be occupied between that ne-
cessary for the notice and the asking of the question, the in-
tended meeting would take place.
Sir T. FREMANTLE said he was not prepared to give
an answer to the question of the Hon. and Gallant Member, as
he had received no communication upon the subject. But with
reference to what had passed in Ireland; he had no doubt his
Excellency the Lord Lieutenant would take such necessary
steps as might be required.
Mr. HUME wished to ask the Right Hen. Baronet whether
he was aware of a great monster meeting intended to be held in
London very shortly, the object being to bring delegates from
all parts of the country, in order to coerce the Members of
that House ?—Laughter. ) The constituencies of every town,
borough, and county, were called on to send up delegates on
purpose to form a demonstration, with the view of coercing the
House. He begged to ask the Right Hon. Baronet whether
he had taken, or would take, any steps in consequence ?
( Great laughter.)
Sir T. FREMANTLE rose amid shouts of laughter, but
on finding that the question was directed to the Right Hen.
Baronet at the head of the Government, he sat down again.
Sir R. PEEL said, that not having received one of the cir-
culars of the intended meeting—( Laughter)—be was quite un-
able to say anything on the subject of the Hon. Member's
question. He might say to the Hon. Member, however, that
he did not feel much alarm in consequence.—(Laughter.)
AYNOOT H.

avow his determination to support that Church, and yet adopt
a line of pc licy which would unquestionably lead to its speedy
and utter destruction. The Right Hen. Baronet at the head

of the Government said he introduced this measurefor
the

purpose of conciliating the Roman Catholics, but did not the
representatives of the Roman Catholic Church ( Mr. Shell
and others) denounce the Protestant Chnrch in Ireland as
the most intolerable and monstrous of all anomalies, and that
to conciliate the Irish Catholics it was quite clear the Pro-
testant Church establishment there must be overthrown. The
Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government said last
session that he would support the Established Church in Ire-
land which had been established by compact, but he added
this important condition :—" Unless an overwhelming neces-
sity of public policy compels me to change my opinion." He
(Mr. Colquhoun) did not think it would require a very strong
pressure to induce this change in the Right Hon. Gentleman's
sentiments.—( Hear, hear.) So that that Church for which
they had so long, so perseveringly, and so unitedly struggled,
in opposition, must, in the opinion of the Right Hon. Baronet,
yield to the pressure of public opinion. The condition made
by him was a plank wide enough for any Ministry
on that side of the House to join with the
Honourable Members for Sheffield and Montrose,
and sweep away the Protestant Church in Ireland. He had
heard with surprise and regret a portion of the speech of the
Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government, and did
not think it wise or prudent for a Minister of the Crown to
utter—he spoke of the difficulties with which the Government
of Ireland was beset—the combinations which existed there—
and in two sentences after, alluded to " the threatening clouds
on the other side of the Atlantic ;" and further, that he reflected
with satisfaction that before the arrival of news of a hostile aspect
from America, a message of peace had been sent to Ireland.—
( Hear, hear). If it were right to establish Maynooth, let
them do it; but let him not attempt to fetter his judgment by
such terror.—( Hoar, hear). Such language might suit the
Conciliation Hail, but hardly became a British Minister. Nor
was it at all suited to convince the Hou e of Commons. The
French papers, in discussing the Maynooth Bill, said it A as a
concession to Irish agitation. If there were differences with
America or France. he felt sure that all parties in that House
would unite in assisting the Government to take that course
which became the honour, the interest, and the dignity of
England. The Noble Lord, no doubt, was quite sure that he
should be unworthy the confidence of a: great party, and un-
worthy that name which had never been stained by the impu-
tation of cowardice, if he came down to that House, and said
that, thoursh he could not overcome the arguments and the rea-
soning of his Hon. Friend, pointing to the wars threatening in
the east and west, he should appeal to their fears of the disasters
they were about to encoun'er. The poorest labourer in the
country would put on the garb of a soldier sooner than submit
to it.—( Hear, hear.) He held in his hand a statement which
was made in the Freeman's Journal, the organ of the Irish
priesthood, and he found the language contained in it to be
this 1—" The English yield (this valuable boon, no) this paltry
civility, with an agony as ifshe were yielding her life. The con-
cession which the grant foreshadows has not been won by
cringing, or by giving any servile gratitude for benefits which
she has won herself." These were the expectations of political
gratitude which they ought to entertain for the boon which they
were now conferring, and this boon would lead immediately to
further and much greater concessions. The Members for
Newcastle and Edinburgh complained of the union of all classes
of Protestant Dissenters on this subject, and the Hon. 'Mem-
ber for Sheffield told them, if they took twenty-six thousand
pounds from the property of the Established Church in Ire-
land, it would put an end to their complaints, and assuage the
Irish people. If the position taken by the Dissenters was only
a mercenary one, their opposition could not be so heating or
strenuous. The objections of the Dissenters to their giving
anything to the Roman Cetholic establishment were these :
They objected on two grounds; they objected to it on ac-
count of the voluntary principle, sad also on account of their
disent on religious matters. The Hon. M ember for Dungarvon
complained that the Church of Scotland had been made a free
church. Let him tell the Honourable Gentleman the grounds
on which that part of the Presbyterian Church became free.
Was it not, because when they came to the House they refused
them the supremacy they looked for, and yet they saw them
giving to the Roman Catholic Church what they refused to the
free church ? On these grounds they opposed the grant to
Maynooth. Honourable Members complained of their dread
of being ex' ravagant, but were they to pare down the feelings
of hard-working„ honest Englishmen to their principles ? And
were they to say to them that they should not come before
the House with petitions expressing their feelings in whatever
language they pleased ?—( Hear, hear.) They also complained
of the speeches that were made at meetings to petition against
the Maynooth grant ; but if they referred to the proceedings
at Covent Garden they might find Honourable Members
at the other side of the House making speeches
in not the most mild or most temperate language.—
( Hear, hear.) He, himself was attacked for having taken
the chair at one of those meeting?, but he did not think that
he or any other chairman would be responsible for all that had
been said at a public meeting. If so, they should give up
public meetings altogether. They would not be deterred, he
would tell the Hon. Member for Sheffield, by any lapse from
principle on the part of the Government, from supporting their
own sober convictions. When he heard the sketch given last
night by the Hon. Member for Edinburgh, of the history of
Ireland, he could not help thinking of one of those words by
which Mr. O'Connell often was in the habit of appealing to
the passions of his Irish auditors when he denominated the Irish
opposed to him, and the English opposed to him, as " Saxons."
And if they referred to the national songs, they would find that
word " Saxon " occurring frequently in the songs which were
at this day circulated in every part of Ireland. There could
not be a doubt that the Saxons, as he called them, occupied Ire-
land by successive invasions, and planted their foot on Celtic
soil; but the conduct of these foreign landlords was anything
bet politic or wise; they kept down the Irish Celt by severe
and cruel laws, inflicted on him harsh exactions, and took no
pains in his social or moral improvement. And as for the Irish
Church being a church fed with wealth, it was a church which
was starved to absolute inanition up to the last fifty years, by
he same selfishness of the Irish landed proprietors; but hen

Mr. M. MILNES said he had the honour of presenting a
petition from the University of Cambridge, in favour of the
Government grant to Maynooth.—( Loud cheering, which
continued for several minutes.) The Hon. Member was still
on his legs, when
Sir R. NGLIS rose amid loud cries of " Order, order,"
and great confusion. He said that the Hon. Member for
Pontefract had misled the House by stating that the petition
he had presented had emanated from the University. Had
the fact been so, the petition would have been signed by the
Chancellor, the Fellows, and other dignitaries of the Colleges,
and the seal of the College would have been affixed to it.
Such was not the case, and he felt hitnself justified in calling
the attention of the House to the misnomer.—( Hear, hear. )
Mr. M. MILNES said that perhaps, if the Right Hon.
Baronet had allowed him to finish, he might then have known
more about the petitioners. The petition was from Cam-
bridge, and it was signed by the bachelors and undergraduates
of that University. The petitioners stated, that as a petition
had been presented by the Right Hon. Baronet from the under-
graduates of Oxford against the grant, they felt it their duty
to record their opinion in its favour. They thought that as
there was no immediate prospect of the Irish Roman Catholics
becoming proselytes to Protestantism, Christian duty impera-
tively called upon them to advance their moral and intellec-
tual regeneration by every means in their power.
Mr. COLLETT presented several petitions from the Primi-
tive Methodists of Athlone, conscientiously objecting to all en-
dowments for religious purposes.
Sir R. H. INGLIS presented petitions from various parts
of the country against the grant to Maynooth.
Mr. BOW,' ERIE presented similar petitions.
Mr. C. BRUCE presented petitions from Elgin against the
grant.
Similar petitions were presented by Sir G. Grey, Mr. Kern-
ble (from Leicester), and other Hon. Members.
Mr. HINDLEY presented various petitions from different
parts of the country to the same effect. One he begged to call
the attention of the House more particularly to. It was from
the Dissenting Chapel meeting in West George-street, Glas-
gow, under the care of Dr. Wardlaw, and they, conscientiously
refusing themselves all assistance from the State, refused to
sanction any endowment to any other sect. They, however,
rejoiced at the removal of all religious disabilities.—( Hear.)
Mr. T. Duncombe, Dr. Bowring, and Sir J. Y. Buller pre-
sented petitions to the like effect.
Mr. HAYTER presented a petition from a place in Buck-
inghamshire, signed by six clergymen of the English Church
and by a great number of their parishioners, in favour of the
grant.—( Hear, hear.)
An HON MENBER presented four petitions from places in
Ireland against the grant.
Mr. Sharman Crawford, Mr. Ferrand, Mr. Grogan, Colonel
Acton, Sir T. Arland, Colonel Wood, Mr. Colville, and Lord
Rendlesham presented petitions from various places in England
and Ireland, against the Maynooth grant.
ADJOURNED DEBATE.

Lord G. SOMERSET then moved that every Committee
on a Railway Bill shall fix the tolls, and shall determine
the maximum rates of charge for the conveyance of
passengers (with a due amount of luggage) and
of goods on such railway, and such rates of
charge shall include the tolls, and the costs
of locomotive power, and every other expense
connected with the conveyance of passengers (with a
due amount of luggage) and of goods upon such railway ;
but if the Committee shall not deem it expedient to de-
termine such maximum rates of charge, a special report,
explanatory of the grounds of their omitting so to do,
shall be made to the Howse, which special report shall
accompany the report of the Bill.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said the subject which the No-
ble Lord had brought under the consideration of the
House was one of great importance, and it was, in his
opinion, high time for the House to limit the tolls and
rates of charges on railways.
Mr. BERNAL, who was almost inaudible in the
gallery, was understood to say that some uniform
practice ought to be adopted in the Railway Committees,
otherwise the greatest confusion would occur, and when
the session was about to close there would be no such

thing as remedying it.
Sir J. Y. BULLER defended the conduct of Mr.
Burke, which had been unjustly censured. If he had
been guilty of some trifling inadvertence, he at once
owned it. He would willingly bear testimony to the
high character of Mr. Berke.
Sir W. HEATHCOTE likewise eulogised the general
conduct of Mr. Burke, which he considered was en-
titled to respect and gratitude. His exertions had been
of the greatest service in ensuring order and regularity.
The O'CONOR DON said he concurred in the ob-
servations of the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat
down. There was a feeling amongst the Committee
that no practitioner could discharge his duty with more
credit and satisfaction than Mr. Burke.—(Hear, hear.)
His conduct with regard to the clause alluded to ought
certainly not to be characterised by a stronger expression
than that of inadvertence. The slightest unfavourable
impression did not remain in the minds of the Committee
with regard to the conduct of Mr. Burke.
Mr. GREENE entirely concurred in the testimony
which had been given respecting Mr. Burke.
Mr. HAWES said he wished to call the attention of
the House to the resolution of the Noble Lord (Lord G.
Somerset.) He did not think it was necessary to say a
word more respecting the uprightness of Mr. Burke.
It would be impossible for any person to say what
should be the maximum rate for passengers and
gx,ds. The company, and the company alone, could
furnish the necessary information on that point.
The Hon. Member for Devonport had said that this was
a clause which should be inserted in order to remedy the
defects complained of ; but he (Hr. Hawes) did
not think it would be possible for this House to frame
_ .

- .
On the order of the day being read for resuming the debate
on Mr. Ward's motion,
Mr. COLQUHOUN said the Hon. Member for Sheffield
had on the previous night quoted several extracts of speeches
made by him five years ago, calling on him to retract or defend
them. He thought it would be inexcusable to occupy the
time of the House in entering into a defence of those extracts.
There were many sentiments in those speeches which a more
mature reason had induced him to qualify.—( Hear, hear.) He
alone should not be excluded from the privilege of altering his
opinions—( Hear, hear)—when that alteration was derived
from communication with men of various opinions—communi-
cations which mitigated those sentiments and showed him to
regard with more toleration the opinions of others.—( Hear. )
But as to the historical facts mentioned by him and denied by
the Hon. Gentleman, he would be ashamed to occupy the time
of the House for one instant in supporting, but would put into
the hands of that Hon. Member the authorities from which he
derived them, one being a volume of the " Life of Wolf Tone,'
the agent to the Roman Catholics of Ireland, and who then
occupied the same position as Mr. O'Connell now did—(Cries
of " No, no," from the Opposition)—at all events who was a
high authority in questions relating to his own country.—
( Cries of " No," and laughter from the same quarter.) The
other volume was the " Life of M. M'Nevin,'' who, after heleft
the country, recorded the facts of which he was cognizant. I
would be trifling with the time of the Hou• e on a great ques-
tion like the present, which so deeply affected the destiny and fu-
ture condition of Ireland, to occupy himself in defending the opi-
nions of one cf so little weight as himself. He agreed in the opinion
expressed by the Hon. Member for Sheffield, that the question o
the Irish Church, though not immediately apart of the Maynooth
Bill, was closely connected with it, and that in discussing the
one it would be right to refer to the other. It was remarkable
inlthis debate how timid and delicate the members of the Govern-
ment were in touching upon the endowment of the Irish Catholic
Church ; it was to them like a red-hot bar, which every Mem-
ber of the Treasury Bench was afraid to touch, lest he should
set the thread of his arguments on fire. The Right Hon.
Gentleman the Member for Edinburgh, it was said, proved to
demonstration that there was no principle in the Bill; and the
Chancellor of the Exchequer said that the question of esta-
blishing a Roman Catholic Church in Ireland was raised from
lack of argument against the measure, and that the question of
its endowment by the State was in " the dark future." The
Right Hon. Gentleman, in the interval of his financial calcu •
lations, must have been reading Milton, for it could only have
aNseared dark from excessive light, for a more perfect view
of the future could not well have been pres nted than that with
which the Right Hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government
favoured the House. There was no Roman Catholic who would
not agree that the principle they were now discussing was the
establishing of the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland. The
Right. Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government said he
had no religious objection to the endowment of the Roman
Catholic Church.—( Hear, hear.) The only question was
whether the Roman Catholic Church would accept of such en-
dowment.—( Hear, hear.) He did not know what were the
feelings of the Roman Catholic priests ; but if they offered to
any set of men half a million of money, paid regularly frnm the
Treasury, he would like to know who would refuse it ? The
Catholic priests would put their voluntary theory in one pocket,
speech
ht he
of otthhee r .R
Right
Ht wo
na
.s cGe re tnatilne.m a
nH
the
ehad e lri
es
taenndedthteomtheenesypei
tary of State for the Home Department with admiration for its
ability. That Right Hon. Baronet had made great sacrifices,
and he did not believe that any necet.sity, however pressing,
would induce him to hide his convictions on such moment-
ous questions ; lie believed in his sincerity, but he very much
questioned his sagacity. He was surprised that any man of in-
tellect could contemplate the establishment of the Roman Ca-
tholic Church in Ireland, and believe he could maintain the
Protestant Church there for five years, after such an establish-
ment. Besides the establishment of two State Churches
would be a monstrous anomaly; for instead of fulfilling the end
for which they ought to be designed, they would be sources of
discard,rach ; n immorality, and contention. If they would establish a
Catholicßto pay u
Churchot
o they
theirey
must extinguish the Protestant
Church
for it was quiteso,
oc6eor certain
and n
3,
et
ahre.English people would l.m
never consent pockets
la largee
yd have wousum for
butthe
endowment of the Catholic, for the endowment of the
l
Protestant Churches, 6
one established Church there, be that which it would. It was
inconsistent in his Right Hon. Friend (Sir J. Graham)
to

any clause by which to fix the maximum rate of
charges. The House had not the power to do so, for the
public were of necessity in the hands of the railway
companies in this respect. For instance, what might be
a fair rate of charge on a locomotive line might not be
fair upon an atmospheric line; and was this House, then,
prepared to say that they could fix the maximum rate
of charges for each ? It would be a most arbitrary act
to do so, and he would most decidedly divide the House
upon any such clause—he (kernel it so impolitic—though
he might not-have the slightest chance of success.
Sir GEO. CLERK said he perfectly concurred with
the Hon. Member that it would be a great absurdity t
attempt to fix the maximum rate of charges ; but it
would be competent for the House to fix the rate of
charges to be made as tolls. However, he begged
to assure the Honourable Member that in one of
the Bills sent before the Committee, the promoters of
the Bill themselves had voluntarily introduced a clause
by which they proposed to fix the maximum rate of
charge.
Mr. GISBORNE hoped the House would not place
any degree of confidence either in that or any other Bill
that should contain such a proposition.
Mr. JAMES STUART WORTLEY believed that
the compensation that had been given was a real and not
a temporary one. He considered that the course that had
been pursued with respect to this subject was
one that ought to be well considered.—(Hear.)
Canals would be no longer able to compete with rail-
ways—the shareholders in them would be ruined by
the low rate at which the latter conveyed luggage
In this respect, he cordially agreed with the Noble
Lord, but thought the resolution ought to
be more stringent. He would likewise call
the attention of the Noble Lord to the high rate
of tolls, as also to the high rote of charge on the inter-
mediate stages on railroads, and to the convenience of
having additional stations. The public, by the high
rate of changes on intermediate stations were in a worse
condition than before railways were established.
Mr. PAKINGTON said there were several railways
carrying goods at so low a rate of charge as to render it
impossible for it to be remunerative. Those companies
made up the loss by imposing a higher rate of charge on
passengers than they would have been otherwise called
upon to pay. This was most unjust towards the canal
tbhe ee therefore, fp( companies,)rrop, proposed
that some
amendment
unfair to all the public. He thought,
eou
nmgdhe
mt
SOMERSETetonregulation
ew
hoped
o cpohep
dt
edsuch as that which had
agree Lontio (it
h. hatdhebehleonupserowpoosuel(di, nottile
only effect of which would be to keep up the rate of
charge on all description of passengers, and all descrip-
tion
of goods.
Mr. S ON ER supported the amendment, and stated
that if the motion of the Noble Lord was acceded to, it
would be injurious, as it would tend to suppress corn-
petition.
Mr. MORRISON thought it would be advisable to
adopt the plan which was adopted with regard to the
French railways. When the fares were lowered there,
the companies were not permitted to raise them until
twelve months had elapsed.
Sir G. GREY complained that proper notice had not

been given of the motion.
After a few words from Mr. S. WORTLEY and Mr.
STANSFIELD,
Lord GRANVILLE SOMERSET gave notice that it
was hie intention, on Monday neat, to bring forward a

came a better age, that awoke the people to a consciousness of
their duties, and the Church then returned from the position to
which it had fallen, until it came at last to a more healthy and
better condition, which was within the last fifty years. They
could not have a better link between them and the people at
this time, than the labours of men of zeal, men of education,
and men of charity, discharging their benevolent duties in the
heart of a wild and rude nation. He had seen
an example of this when he visited the residence of his Hon.
Friend the Member for Bandon, in the neighbourhood of
which place Roman Catholics were scattered through a very
wide district. He recollected accompanying a man who was
at present a dignitary of the Irish Church, and who was then
rather advanced in years, having spent a long life and buried
great talents in an obscure and charitable object, through these
districts, and he could not forget how he was received by those
very Roman Catholics ; the farmer desisted from his labour,
the cottage was opened, and the parent and child,whom he had
relieved from distress, rose to receive him, and he saw that
there was one great catholicity of benevolence and kindness
the
eat population triumphant over all, welding together discordant creeds and
best
daystha t
discordant feelings in one bond of true and lasting attachment.
If ever they did away with that Church, and neglected those
smuernro,atnhdeedtrutebsettni,inktbbeentwbeeen them anday
of Ireland's prospeaity were numbered. On these grounds he
would for ever defend the maintenance of the Irish Church,
and should give to the motion of the Hon. Member for Shefs
Feld the most strenuous opposition.
Mr. BATESON said that he, as an Irish Protestant and a
member of the Established Church of that country, felt him-
self compelled, by a sense of duty, to raise his feeble voice
against the monstrous and iniquitous measure proposed by the
Hon. Member for Sheffield. He felt opposed to it on the
grounds of its great injustice. He thought that he (Mr.
Bate-on) had as much right to come down to the House and
propose that the property of the Right Hon. Gentleman ( Mr.
Ward) should be devoted to the Roman Catholic clergy for
educational purposes House, as he
was pledged to keep the compact un-
touched and inviolate. He hoped, however, that this liberality
would not be one-sided, and he trusted that the Right Hon.
Baronet at the head of the Government would take into his
consideration the claims of the Unitarians of Ulster, and would
render them as much pecuniary assistance as would en.able
them to carry out their objects. They were about to endow
Maynooth College liberally, and already they had passed the
Charitable Bequests Act. And why did they do all this, but
on the shallow. pretence of conciliation ? But what had
been the result of this conciliation? Why, the demards
of the Roman Catholics had been increased, and the Hon.
:Wernher for Dungarvon went so far as to , they
sa • would not
be sa isfied until they were placed on a footing with the Pro-
testants of Trinity, College. The House had been told that
the root of all evil was the Protestant Church. Now, as a
Protestant landlord and a Protestant soldier, he repudiated al!
those assertions. But let any Hon. Alember in that House
get up and tell him, from the bottom of his heart, that the
Protestant Church was either a curse or an injury to Ireland.
No, he defied any Hon. Member to prove anything of the sort.
The Church, instead of being a curse, was a great benefit arid
blessing to Ireland.
Mr. BARING was anxious to explain, in a few words, the
vote he was about to give on the present occasion, and he was
anxious that the House should bear with him for a few mo-
ments while he stated the grounds upon which he was pre-
pared to vote with the Right lion. Baronet opposite, and op-
pose the motion of his Hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield.
He felt compelled to address the House, because his Right Hun.
Friend the Nlember for Edinburgh. in his able speech last
night, stated that the House was divided on this question into two
parties—namely, those who were prepared to vote with his Hon.
Friend, and those who were ready to vote against him, and to
say that the property of the Irish• Church should be maintained
inviolate. Now, although he should vote against the motion
of his Honourable Friend, he was not prepared to be included
in the latter category. He did not consider that by supporting
the Bill as it now stood he was precluded hereafter from
going into its principle, and the principle upon which Irish the
Church ought to be maintained. He believed the Bill of the
Government would prove a great boon and benefit to Ireland,
and he was therefore earnestly desirous that it should, in its
present form, be carried into effect, and in doing so he did not
think he was opposing either his former opinions or principles.
He was not bound to support an amendment brought forward
by a Member of his own party when he thought it was to injure
the practical course which he wished to pursue. His Hon.
Friend some years ago proposed that they should withdraw all
support from both Establishments in Ireland. That was the
opinion of his Hon. Friend three years ago, and whether he re-
tained that opinion still, of crnirse, he (Mr. Baring) could not
say. Well, two years ago he wished to withdraw all support
from the two establishments. ay the Church
Mr. WARD—No ; what I said was, "If you P
pay all or pay none."
Mr. BARING continued—At all events he was correct
in the sense of his Hon. Friend, though not in the particular
expression; but be that as it might, he himself believed the Bill
to be a practical proposition, likely to produce great benefit in
Ireland, and he thought the course of a practical man ought to
be rather to support what was in reality a good measure, than
support a resolution which, however wise it might be, was at
all events very ill-timed. Entertaining these views, he was
not prepared to throw any difficulty in the way of the Govern-
ment measure. Everybody t.f common sense then must know
that they could not pass the Bill into a law if they were to affix
to it the proposal of his Hon. Friend the Member for Shef-
field. His Honourable Friend, however, with perfect f. ankness
declared that he did not bring forward his measure to
obstruct the principle of the Bill, but for the sake of introduc-
ing arid laying down a great principle. His Hon. Friend said
this was the first step taken in a course which would hereafter
have to be more extensively carried out; and it was, therefore,
advisable that they should sketch out the principles by which
they were always to be guided in that course. But did his
Hon. Friend tell him what those great principles were? If
there was any advantage to be obtained in making these princi-
ples known to the people of Engls.nd, they should at any rate
make them intelligible and distinct. He could not understand
what the particular principles were which his Honour-
able Friend wished to enunciate in his amendment.—
( Hear.) If the endowment of the Catholic Church was to
be considered as the principle, what did it matter whether it
were endowed from the Consolidated Fund or from the funds
of the Established Church ? That question might be reserved
for after consideration. If it was expedient to state some
principle to the people of England, by which they would
hereafter he guided, of course it was no less expedient that
they should state that principle clearly and distinctly, but he
confessed the present was not the most favourable period
for laying those principles down. He was not surprised at the
difference of opinion which reigned on his own side of the
House. It was one of the great difficulties of legislating on
such a subject. Was it then advisable to lay down at that
moment, and while the House was in this state

CITE SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY MORNING, APRIL 25 1845.

of indecision of principle, what should hereafter determine the
course they were to pursue I Were not the difficulties'already
sufficiently incumbering, without calling upon them to lay down
theprinciples which should hereafter guide them upon this ques-
tion? Well, then, let them deal with the evils as they at pre-
sent found them, t,nd not state the principles to the people of
England which they might hereafter find it necessary to withdraw
from. If this measure were granted, the peace and satisfaction
that would be certain to follow it in Ireland, would more than
repay this country for a much greater concession.--( Hear. )
He had no apprehension that it a ould not pass, for the rearand
only feeling of hostility against it as a Roman Catholic mea-
sure was exhibited Kinly by the Protestant Dissenters. lint,
he would ask, was it not likely that other feeli• gs
of hostility would be raised to i , if this
motion were persevered in? He feared that Hon. Membeis
on his side of the House were not sufficiently sensible of the
apprehension that such was likely to occur. He did not en-
tertain those conscientious objections to the grant that others
did ; on the contrary, he did think, as a Protestant, that it
would be for the advantage of the Protestant Church to have

its present temporalities reconsidered, and those scandals—(he
did not say it offensively)—of which so much had been said of
it, removed.—( Hear, hear.) He did believe it would be a
great blessing to Ireland if the Government endowed the Ro-
man Catholic Church, provided it was not done in such a way
as to make either the people or the clergy feel that that grant
had placed them either in a degraded or servile position.
( Hear, hear.) He believed that this grant would not only be'
a blessing to Ireland, but an act of policy by this country, and
one worthy of the cause of Christianity.--( Hear, hear.) He
was well aware that there were very many Protestants who
were firm supporters of their religion, but were ready to admit
that the Establishment had its abuses, and that they ought to
he removed; yet he doubted very much if the taking away of
the funds of one establishment to support another would be
likely to give satisfaction.—(Hear, bear.) One thing was
quite clear, and that was, that the English as well as the Irish
people felt deeply upon this question ; and, therefore, he would
say, that if the Government could give this boon to Ireland
without giving dissatisfaction to England, he would be
prepared to support it.—( Cheers. )
Mr. BERNAL said he regretted that he felt himself called
upon to oppose the views of his Right Hon. Friend who had
just sat down, and in doing so he should do him the justice to
say that he had expressed his sentiments upon this question,
that evening, in that bold, upright, and comprehensive manner,
that did him honour, and showed that he was incapable of utter.
ing any sentiment that he did not feel the truth and justice of
in his heart.—(Hear, hear.) But the reasons alleged and the
arguments steed by his Right Hon. Friend, for the vote he in-
tended to give, were not satisfactory to him, nor were they
such as would deter him (Mr. Bernal) from giving his support
to his Hon. Friend Mr. Ward's motion. He would not enter
upon any long argument, in addition to those adduced by his
Hon. Friend, in support of hismotion ; but he would endeavour
to confine himself as . much as passible to the merit.,
of the motion itself.—( Hear, Hear.) His Honourable
Friend had said that the present Parliament should
not do any act by which to fetter the acts of future legislation ;
but how did he propose to remove the difficulty ? Did the
Hon. Member suppose that the proposition of the Right lion.
Baronet was such a one as could not be disturbed hereafter?
He (Mr. Bernal) would contend for it, that there were inhe-
rent difficulties in the way of legislating effectively upon this
subject, which would always embarrass it. —( Hrar, hear.)
His Right Hon. Friend had said that in legislating upon this
question, regard should be had to the opinions of the people of
England; but, at the same time, it should not be forgotten
that they should also legislate conscientiously, and in such a
manner as they conceived they were bound as legislators to do.
—( Hear, hear.) He was not one'of those who had bound him-
self to that shadow of a party, or that ghost of a section—
( Laughter)—called the Irish Church party.—( Hear, hear. )
But, at the same time, he never would be one to lend himself
to what was called the destruction of the Irish Church.—
( Hear, hear.) But when he had heard Hon. Members in that
House declare, in the course of this debate, that at the time
of the Union a bond was entered into, by which the
Irish Church Establishment was to be held hence-
forth inviolable, he would ask what had they not
already done in regard to that establishment?—(Cries of
" Hear, hear.") Had they not since considerably narrowed the
whole of the Ecclesiastical Establishment in Ireland?—( Hear,
hear.) Had they not dealt summarily with the tithe question ?
—( Hear, hear.) If so, then, he would say, they should now,
once and for ever, abandon this fanciful condition. —(Cheers. )
He would say, if they meant to act in this same way for the
future, there was nothing in the history of the past to render
the pursuit of such a course inconsistent.—( Hear, hear.) He
had heard the Hon. Member for Newcastle declare that he was
inviolably attached to the Church Establishment, both from
principle and ss a matter of State policy. He (Mr. Bernal)
regretted that the Hon. Member was not in his place, or he
would be ready to answer him..—( Hear, hear.) He had also
heard other Hon. Members make use of language in reference
to this question, that was not very creditable.—( Hear, hear.)
He had heard of such expressions as the " No Popery" cry,
and Popish domination and ascendancy, and that the
Catholics were treasonable subjects to the Qeeen and
Constitution; but he would say he held such language in the
greatest detestation, and he repudiated it.—( Cheers.) Ten
years ago he heard similar language used, when the Houses of
Parliament were burnt, and therefore he would hold no alli-
mice with such persons, as it would be impossible for such to
conduct the discussions of that House in that calmness of tone
and temper by which they should be regulated.—( Hear, hear,
and cheers.) He did not think the motion of the Hon. Mem-
ber for Sheffield would remove the difficulty that lay in the
way of this question ; but it would tend to soften it down ;
but the moment the present Government put forward this grant
in the shape of a Bill, then indeed it became an endowment of
the College of Maynooth.—( Hear, hear.) He had seen by
some of the papers that certain persons supported this measure
because it would have the effect, they said, of increasing
Protestantism in Ireland if once the priests were well educated.
—( Laughter. ) He would like to know, from the Right Hon.
Baronet (Sir R. Peel), why, if this measure had been deemed
so necessary for Ireland, it had not been granted ten years
ago? The Right Hon. Baronet had stated that he made the
concession because he feared war was impending ; and that, he
(Mr. Bernal) should say, was, at the very least, an indiscreet
speech, for the Right Hon. Baronet had, no right to propose
the measuie at all, if he did not intend it as a beneficial measure.
This question had been reiterated in the ears of the House
usque ad nauseum, and it would be repeated continually even'
if the Speaker should live to the age of Methuselah.—(Loud
laughter.) He (Mr. Bernal) contended that the state of
things at present existing in Ireland could not continue. If
they wished to maintain it, they mu.t do so by means of brute
force, and not by argument. He thought it was possible for
two establishments to exist together in Ireland, but not on the
same ground as they did at present. In parts of Rhenish
Germany the Protestants and Catholics lived together
in the utmost harmony. In parts of Switzerland
aid Germany, it was a frequent thing for the Pro-
testants to use the temple of worship in the morning,
and the Catholics in the evening. It had beers said the Catho-
lics of Ireland wished for the destruction of the Established
Church in Ireland. He believed that no such wish existed.
He believed that many of the Catholic Members of that House
would not desire to see the Established Church in Ireland
broken up. He (Mr. Bernal) would support the measure
conscientiously, and fearless of the result. He believed it would
be a beneficial measure, and therefore nothing should deter him
from supporting it.
Captain GLADSTONE said he wished to speak with all
due respect of those gentlemen who, from the place he repre-
sented, had petitioned the House against this grant He be-
lieved them to be actuated by conscientious motives ; but,
having made up his mind to support the grant to Mavnooth,
he could not support the prayer of those individuals. He was
not ashamed to confess that he had felt considerable difficulty
in coming to a conclusion on this question. He did not mean
to say so far as regarded the mere question of an increase of
the grant to Maynooth, for as to the necessity of that he had
made trp.his mind; and he thought that the present measure
ought not to be considered in that light alone. His convic-
tion was, that the increased grant was absolutely necessary.
He had himself visited Maynooth, and he could confirm the
statement which had been made by his Right Hon. Friend at
the head of the Government, that it was in a disgraceful state,
and resembled a deserted barrack more than anything else.
They had heard the declarations of many who had been con-
nected with this institution that it was not commodious.
He believed that the present state of Maynooth was disgraceful
and not creditable to its connection with the State, and that
some change ought to take place. As far as regarded the reli-
gious part of this question, he would say that he had the
strongest feeling for the Protestant religion, and he had, he
trusted, an equal respect for the religion of his Roman Catholic
fellow-countrymen. There were those who objected to this
grant, believing it to be dangerous to the Church, and to the
cause of Protestantism. He confessed that he could not bring
himself to believe that this would be the case. If the
effect of this measure should be to give a more liberal
education to those who were hereafter to become the priests
of Ireland—if it were to give an increase of comfort to
them during their stay at Maynooth, be believed that it would
be beneficial to the country, and when those individuals left
the College of Maynooth, they would not forget the source
from which they had obtained such education and such com-
forts. It was generally known, that the feelings with which
the students at Maynooth left that College were not the most
favourable to the general peace and welfare of the country.
During his visit to the College of Maynooth—and here he
wished to bear his testimony to the courtesy and kindness
evinced by the Rev. President of that institution—during his visit
to that College he put this question to the President, "Suppose
a large and more liberal endowment were made to the College
of Maynooth, do you think the effect of it would be to in-
duce the higher classes of the Roman Catholics to send their
sons there for the purpose of becoming priests?" and the an-
swer to that question had surprised him. The answer was,
" The higher classes do not exist"—he meant of course that
they did not exist in sufficient numbers to fill up the priesthood
of Ireland. He (Captain Gladstone) supported the grant, be-
cause he thought it would be beneficial to 1. eland ; bot he
felt perfectly at liberty hereafter to vote against any endow-
ment. He thought the measure had been brought forward at a
proper time, and in a proper spirit. He did not believe it had
been brought forward through fear, but that it had been pro-
po.-ed simply to benefit Ireland. But while he said this he
would contend for the supremacy of the Protestant Church
in Ireland. He conceived that a prescription of 300 years was
enough to establish that supremacy, and should it ever be
attacked it would be found that the motto of its supporters
was still no surrendoe
Lord HOWICK said he agreed to a great extent in what
had fallen from his Right Hon. Friend the Member for Ports-
mouth (Mr. Baring). He certainly did not concur with him
in his concluding observation, but he did agree with him that
the motion of his Hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield was
not submitted to the House in a convenient form, or on a con-
venient occasion.—( Hear, hear.) He thought the occasion
inconvenient, because undoubtedly it interfered with the pro-
gress of a Bill, to which he, for one, was most anxious to give
the best support he was able. He thought it more inconve-
nient, because, while the question which his Hon. Friend
wished to raise by his motion was the great and important ques-
tion whether the whole of the arrangements of the Irish Church
ought to be remodelled or not, he was of opinion that that
question was badly raised upon the appropriation of
so comparatively small a sum as 26,i)001. That
sum was far too small a practical proposition to bring forward
as a test of so great a principle, but, at the same time, as it
seemed to be the wish of Gentlemen on both sides of the
House, that this question should be considered as clearly in-
tended to decide the point of whether they were to maintain,
unaltered, as at present appropriated, the property of the Esta-
blished Church of Ireland or whether some arrangement was
to be considered—as it was the feeling on both sides of the
House, that this great question was to be so considered, and
that the division upon it was to be taken as the test of their
views upon it, he was willing so to consider it. Though he
felt on the present occasion very unequal to the task of address-
ing the House upon this subject, yet, as it was one upon which,
ever since his entrance into public lie, he took so deep an in-
terest, upon which he entertained opinions so strong, which every
year's experience only served to strengthen more and more, he
could not allow this debate to come to a close without expressing
that opinion however inadequate he might be to do so. He re-
garded the question of the Irish Church in the same light as
his Right Hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh (Mr.
Macaulay.) In his unanswerable speech upon the subject
last night, he entirely concurred. He always regarded the
maintenance of the Irish Church upon its present footing as
contrary to every principle of justice and of policy.—( Hear,
hear.) He believed in his conscience that the maintenance
of that Church had been the great obstacle to the spread of
the Protestant religion in Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) He was
so persuaded of the truth of the great principles of reli-
gion, that he firmly believed if they were given fair play—if
they were not weighed down by the. injustice of that system

with whieh they were united, they must in the course of three
centuries have taken root and flourished on the soil of Ireland as
they had done in other countries.—( Hear.) He believed
that the Irish Church was the source of that misgovernment
and oppression under which Irelt.nd had, for three centuries
snffered.—( Hear, hear.) That was the view which he took
of the subject, and it was one which he never concealed.
When he was in the Government, and was a party to the
appropriation clause, he never disguised the fact, that the
arguments on which he supported that proposition were argu-
ments, if pushed to their legitimate conclusion, would have car-
ried him farther than the clause then proposed.—( Hear. )
He never disguised that such was the effect of those princi-

pies, and if 'he contended for a proposition that fell far
short of them, he did so only because he believed that at
the time the Roman Catholics of Ireland were prepared to
accept far less than in justice they were entitled
to demand.—(Hear, hear.) In the year 18.38, when they
consented to pass the Tithe Bill without the appropriation
clause, he did not conceal the fact that he acquiesced in that de-
termination of •he Government to which he then belonged, not
because healtered his opinion of the justice of that clause, but
because he felt that the time at which such a compromise might
be accepted had gone by. The Right Hon. Baronet opposite
might remember that that, and that only, was the ground on
which he consented to be a party to the bringing forward of the
Tithe Bill, without the appropriation clause. And he did not
value that clause F o much for its intrinsic value as for bring a
tender of part of the just claims of the Roman Catholics ; and,
when originally proposed, the Catholics were willing to accept

,
it as a 'concession, not so much to their interests as io
their feelings and their sen e of honour, which were
wounded by the existing arrangements. But in IBS
it was obvious to him, from the protracted contests on
the subject of the appropriation clause, that the time
must come when compromise being no longer accept-
able, a larger and more difficult question must come under
discussion. He did not raise the question then, because those
most interested in it did not seem to think it an occasion on
which it could be advantageously brought forward. But he
foresaw that the question would be brought forward; and he
never concealed, being then in office, his views on a matter in
which he felt that justice required it should be determined.
He referre.-1 to those things merely to show that when the Right
Hon. Baronet opposite (Sir J. Graham) spoke last night of
Government on his side of the House being prepared to go
farther now than formerly, he did not do them justice, at least
he d'd not do it to him (Lord Howick ). He would bear him
( Lord Howick) witness that his opinions on this subject had
been frankly avowed ; and that he supported those opinions to
the utmost of his power.—( Hear, hear.) After having be-
fore addressed the House on the subject now before it, and
after the speech of his Right Hon. Friend, the Member for
Edinburgh, he should not attempt new to point nut all the
defects of the existing arrangements of the Irish Church.
He wished rather to go at once to the practical
question as to how the anomaly and injustice of
those arrangements were to be met. He had
no hesitation in stating his opinion on that pint.
More than two years ago he stated that the time was gone by
when a compromise would be of use. He firmly believed that
if they were contented to accept: the appropriation clause of
1835, they might, for their time at least, maintain without
serious inconvenience the Protestant Established Church of

Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) But they triumphed in their resist-
ance to that compromise, and the consequence was that they
now brought about a state of things, in which he thought a
compromise was no longer practicable. He believed that they
must now do full justice to the people of Ireland.—(Cheers.)
It was no use any longer to palter with the question. For him-
self, he would never again be a party to an incomplete and in-
adequate measure of reform—he would never disturb the
country by proposing a measure which did not go to the
root of the evil.—(Hear, hear.) When he said " the
root of the evil," what he meant was, that they
must deal on equal terms with Catholics and Protestants.—
( Cheers.) There must be no distinction—no violent a,sump-
tion of correctness of doctrine and prior claims to the regard of
the State on the part of the Protestants.— (Hear, hear, and
cheers.) Catholic and Protestant interests must in his opinion
be considered and dealt with alike.—(Cheers.) That was not
the time for discussing the proper mode of doing so, but he
would tell them, because he wished to have no concealment

on the subject, what, in the present state of his
ieformation, appeared to him to be the best mode
in which the subject should be dealt with. In the
first place, he would save all existing interests.—(Hear,
hear.) He would not in any way interfere with those who
now enjoyed incomes from the Irish Chinch revenues—
( Hear, hear)—and, at present, he thought they were bound
to draw on the Consolidated Fund of this country for the sup-
port of the Roman Catholic Church. Under any other circum-
stances this might be injustice, but he had the strongest opi-
nion that Ireland herself ought to provide for the religious in-
struction of the Irish people, as England provided for the in.
struction of the English people, and Scotland provided
for the instruction of the Scotch 'people.-7( Hear, hear.)
As a permanent arrangement, he held that it would
be what justice required, and they had no right to call on the
English people, er on the Scottish people, to contribute to the
religious instruction of the people of Ireland.—( Hear, hear. )
But as a temporary arrangement the case in his opinion was
different—he thought it was the fault of the English themselves
that Ireland was not in a situation at once to provide for the
religions instruction or the Roman Catholics from the Church
property of Ireland. It was the prejudices prevailing in this
country which prevented a measure from being adopted by
which a considerable fund would be already at their disposal.
—( Hear, hear.) If the prejudices of the English and Scotch
people had not interposed, the appropriation clause
would have been carried in 1835 ; and not only
that, but if these prejudices had not interfered—if
they had been able to deal with the application of the pro-
perty of the Irish Church as reason and common sense dic-
tated—his opinion was, that they would not be compelled to
fritter away and waste that property as they had been.—.( Hear,
hear.) They scandalously wasted that property—first, by
the arrangements of 1533, with refererce to bishops' lands.
If tl.e property of the Irish Church bad not been devoted to
unpopular purposes—if it had not been applied to objects
which the general sense of the people of Ireland was against,
his opinion was that they could not have so wasted that pro-
perty—that if the property of the Irish Church was devoted
to the instru-tion of the great body of the people,
neither Parliament nor the people of Ireland themselves
would have consented to the arrangements made with regard
to the bishops' lands.—( Hear, hear.) In like manner it was
an unjust application of the revenues of the Irish Church which
compelled them in 1833 to consent to a sacrifice of 25 per
cent. of that property. As, therefore, that mistake was
forced on Parliament by the prejudices—he admitted tl.e honest
prejudices—of the people of England and Scotland. the cause
of that mistake might fairly fall on those who committed it;
and the people of England and Scotland ought to pay for a
time a' provision for the Catholic Church ; but ultimately, he
said, that that provision ought to be supplied by Ireland her-
self. If he had to deal with the subject, he would say,
let the whole property of the Irish Church be vested
in the hands of commissioners. Let them pay the incomes
of existing incumbents, and as those interests fell in, the first
charge on the funds would be to make due provision for the
Catholic clergy—he said the first charge, because he knew
that on his side of the House, as well as on the other, it had
been the custom to say, that the surplus ought to go to the
Roman Catholics. He repudiated that notion as altoeether
unjust, and said that the Catholics had, in every point oeview,
the first claim on the funds. They were tl.e majority—they
were the poorest, and the property was originally set apart
for the maintenance of their Church. Upon another ground
they had also a just claim. He thought it was for the national
interest that the Roman Catholic clergy should be provided
for, precisely as he thought it for the interest of England that
the clergy of England should have an independent provision,
without trusting to the contributions of their flocks.—( Hear,
hear.) He thought it of the most essential importance that the
clergy of the great body of the Irish people should have in-
comes independent of the caprice of those whom they taught.
He was most distinctly opposed to what was called the voluntary
principle. He was utterly unable to understand the views of
those who adopted that policy. Gentlemen upon both sides of
the House agreed that the State ought to interfere in support
of the education of the people, and that it ought not to be
trusted merely to the voluntary efforts of individuals. Large
grants were made for education in England, in Ireland, and in
Scotland ; and he regretted that the unfortunate sectarian
feelings which prevailed between Churchmen and Dissen•ers
prevented them from carrying out as far as they might the be-
nefits of education, the means of which the State was willing to
provide. If education, then, ought not to be trusted to the
voluntary efforts of individuals, the case was mneh
stronger against leaving the religious education
of the people to the support of voluntary contributions of indi-
viduals. Why, those who were the least sensible of the wants
of religion, were the very persons to whom the advantages of
religion were of the most importance, and they were the per-
sons who would be the least inclined to contribute to its sup-
port...--(“ Hear, hear," from the Chancellor of the Exche
quer.) He was glad to hear the Right Hon. Gentleman cheer
that. If the Hon. Gentleman concurred with him in that
fealeig—if they felt the necessity of providing religious in-
struction for the people, let him (Lord Howick) ask
them in what shape it ought to be provided ? Was it
in the shape in which it would be useless, or in a
shape in which it would be acceptable?—( Hear, hear.) Was
it for practical purposes they meant to provide it? If so, they
ought. to snpply that religious education in a form in which it
ss ould be most acceptable to the people of Ireland.—( Hear. )
If they thought that religious education was of such im-
portance, how could they justify themselves in not affording it
in a manner in which it would be most acceptable? He was so
persuaded of the necessity of such a proposition, that he
was ready to find means for it from asy source—
he was ready to take the money, in the first in-
stance, from the Consolidated Fund, or from any other fund,
for he felt that with regard to the Catholic population of Ire-
land, it was absolutely necessary to provide for the religious
instruction of that country. Why should they compel the
peasantry of the must destitute and worst taught country in
the world to find the funds for the payment of the religious in-
struction they received, when there was a magnificent national
endowment which he said was theirs by right ? To do that
was the most flagrant violation of justice which England
had ever been guilty of.—( Hear, hear.) But if they provided
in the first instance for the Catholics, he was
perfectly willing also to provide for the Protestants.
He was quite willing to meet the assertion, that the Protestant
Church was inadequate to its purposes, upon higher and nobler
grounds than any that had been alleged. He thought that the
property of Ireland should be taxed for the purposes of this
Bill, in the amount in which it was relieved in 1838.—( Hear,
hear.) He thought that there might be obtained a fund which
; wou'd meet all the exigencies of the case which had been so
; strongly put forward, and he concurred with those who had
. given it its due prominence. But he would ask the Right
Hon. Gentleman opposite, was he really serious ?—(Cheers. )
Did he really mean to say, that if the Bill were frankly and
faithfully proposed to the House, as a measure to satisfy the
Irish people, it would be refused?---(Cheers.)
Sir R. PEEL—No.—(Cheers.)
. Lord HOWICK agreed with the Right Hon. Baronet. He
; was sure that nothing which might equalise the position of re-
ligions in Ireland would be rejected by the House.—( Cheers. )
He thought that all religions in Ireland should be placed upon
an equality, and he was sure that the people of Ireland would
never be contented with less.—(Cheers.) They had been told
that a message of conciliation hail been sent to Ireland. What
was the tenor of that message ?—( Cheers. ) In weighing the
value of that offer, ►et us consider what it was worth.—( Hear,
hear.) Let us only consider what are the real facts of the
case. Let us consider that the poorest people in the world
were obliged to support the richest priesthood, who preached
doctrines—when they preached at all—quite opposite to the
I opinion!, often hurtful to the feeiings, of those who supported
them.—( Hear, hear.) The security and safety of the
Established Church had always been made the pretext of
oppression to Ireland.—(Cheers.) Was it any wonder that
animosities should arise ? Would we, as Englishmen, say that
there should he sustained in this country by all the powers of
the pesple, and by all the rights of the constitution,
a Catholic Church, which the people abhorred, and which was
maintained by majorities of troops in one part of the empire,
and majorities of votes in another. He would ask the House
to allow him to come back to this question. How could Right
Hon. Gentlemen opposite bring this measure forward unless
they intended to go further ? Upon this part of the question he
should suggest to the Hon. Baronet to consider what had been
the effect of his speeches upon his own partisans.—(Cheers.)
The Government, no doubt, had felt themselves in great diffi-
culties and embarrassments from the opposition of their present
principles to those which they held when out of office. The
Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary for the Home Department
had said that he would despise himself if he did not acknowledge
that some expression of his was hasty and ill-advised. But he
(Lord Howick) would ask, was it not injurious to the reputa•