The Sun.
London, England, 1827-05-02 00:00:00

lately retired from the public service. With regard to the
Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Peel) who has addressed the
Horise this evening, I am particularly anxious to express
myself in those terms of high personal respect which I feel
t rwards him. I shall not now be accused of paying my
court to that individual, if I speak my full opinion of his
merits. It may not he forgotten by the House—not be-
cause any thing done by so inconsiderable a person as my-
self is likely to dwell in their memory, but as connected
with passages in the Right Hon. Gentleman's life worthy
to be recollected—that if there be one individual in this
House, to whom on this side, (I at that time sitting on the
other side) it was my misfortune, certainly not his fault.
to be opposed in a more personal manner than another, it
was that Right Honourable Gentleman. But candour, and
truth, and justice compel me to say, that the mode in which
he conducted himself was not only at all times above all
censure, but suds as places 'aim above the possibility of
suspiCion, even by the most ingenious malice of his worst
enemy, if be had one—(cheers).—Feeling the good accom-
plished by the moderate, rational, and wholesome steps
taken by the Right Hon. Gentleman, for the amendment
of the Criminal Law—those great reforms, projected by
that excellent man (Sir S. Romilly), who was not spared
to witness the triumph of his principles, and more recently
supported by surpassing eloquence and ability by au Hon.
Friend (Sir J. Mackintosh a whom indisposition now keeps
from his place in Parliament ; I regard it as none of the
least evils resulting from the unsettled state of the Catholic
Question, that that circumstance alone deprived the Go-
vernment and the Country of that Right Honourable
Gentleman's services—(Hear, hear !)—I would add
one word respecting this great question. Base con-
duct has been imputed to his Majesty's Govern-
ment, and those who have joined it, in plain, undisguised,
and therefore to me, I confess, more palatable, because
more intelligible language, by the Right Honourable
Gentleman who spoke last, (Some friend whispered to
Mr. Brougham.)—Well, the Hon. Gentleman, then be it.
Nobody will mistake me. My friends are afraid that I
should seem to confound the late Secretary of State with
the Under Secretary. There is no danger of confusion in
this case--(A laugh.)—The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
Peel) used no such terms as those of " base conduct" and
" unnatural coalition ;" and if I read his character aright,
he is incapable of feeling the sentiments which would
give rise to that plain and honest language. But, Sir,
I say there is no baseness in this coalition, if there be
no fraud practised on the parties to this alliance.—
(Cheers.)—l, for one, did not look to see the Ca-
tholic Question made a Cabinet measure. I have no
such expectation. I look to its being advanced by the
mode in which the Cabinet has been remodelled. (Cheers.)
1 look to the ultimate good to be obtained for Ireland, if
it be pursued prudently, discreetly, practically, with a just
estiMate of all the prodigious difficulties which yet stand
ill the way, and which seem even to accumulate round
our :ceps as we approach them—(Cheers).--The very
,;sarements you have heard this evening from the Hon.
Gentleman (Mr. Dawson)—for I understood enough of
his allegory to comprehend what he alluded to--(a laugh)
—and which may, I fear, be all perfectly correct,
shew that these difficulties are increasing rather than
diminishing. Heartily and zealously desiring the welfare
of Ireland, and the accomplishment of the wishes of all Ca--
tholie Irishmen, and of a great part of the Protestants too
—for, permit me to say, all the Irish Protestants are not on
one side, and all the Irish Catholics on the other—l am
anxious in the first place for the removal of all causes of
internal disagreement and jealousy. It is notorious, that
in the last division, which postponed the hopes of the Irish
Catholics for another year, a vast majority of the Irish
Members, who are not all by law necessarily Protestants,
voted for Emancipation. But, let mo at the same tie
give forth a warning to the Catholics themselves, an'ad-
monition to their advocates in this House, and this salutary
advice to their friends generally :—Let them not at this cri-
tical moment—(cheers from the Opposition Benches,
echoed still louder from the Ministerial side)—let them not,
repeat, at this critical moment, to please their bitter ene-
'emes—(loud cheers,)—play the game of the party of the
quadrant of this House, who, already, in expectation. of
success of their shallow device, suffer it too plainly to ap-
pear by those signs and gestures and articulate sounds, by
which they make themselves understood, though they sel-
dom deal in articulate language.—(Cheers.)—Let them
not, I conjure them, gratify, the Member for Somersetshire
(Sir Thomas Lethbridge,) whose position is at this
moment, I should say,, hut for my personal respect for
him, absolutely grotesque.—(Laughter.)—Long may he
occupy it ! As the Member for Yorkshire (Mr. Dunconabe)
wished the late Secretary of State, I wish the Hon. Bart.
Sir Thomas Lethbridge) constant health and an unin-
terrupted enjoyment of that bencn which he now so pecu-
liarly adorns.--(Laughter.)—But I counsel him to beware
of speaking—it is a dangerous employment of the property
of mind. Let him use what be has warily and well.—
(Laughter.) Let him vote as much as he pleases, but let
him be cautious how he commits himself to the more
arduous duty of talking. His position this evening struck
are as pre-eminently ludicrous; and almost induced me to
call it by the appellation that properly belonged to it. He
was placed, it evidently appeared, between two equal and
opposite sets of motives, each of similar power, attracted
as it were, like a certain. animal, by two bundles of hay ;
—(laughter and cheering)—so the Honourable Baronet
hardly knew whether to support the Sovereign who
was compelled, by the retirement of his Ministers, to
exercise his prerogative, and call others to their places, or
those who had endeavoured to embarrass the Government
by their sudden haste. I trust he will take the Consti-
tutional course on the present occasion ; and he may be
assured, when I tell him, that there is not in any ques-
tion, in or out of the Cabinet, the shadow of a thought all
at once to alter the policy that has been pursued for many
years with regard to the Catholic Claims, and now to make
it a Cabinet question. But will nothing but the entire
destruction of the new Administration satisfy the Hon.
Baronet ? I speak as a bystander.—(A laugh. )—lf he is
not satisfied with my relative, Lard Bexley, is the new
Lord Chancellor nothing ? Is he no security ? Did be
not hear the speech of that Noble and Learned Lord on the
last debate in this Honse, when I was sitting a humble
member of that body of which the Hon. Baronet is now the
distinguished leader—(Cheers and laughter)? There are
at least those two opposed to the Catholics, to say nothing
of a third. But with respect to that great question, I will
say, that whoever advises any man to promote it by any
-means out of this House, or to bring it here forward again
this session, in which the sense of the House has, unfortu-
nately, already been deplared against it, that man, I &ay,
will notfurther the interests of Ireland or the Catholics. Nor
will he do his duty with regard to the tranquillity of England,
or the peace of her Govermaa.:nt: but he will show himself the
worst enemy of the mome: tous interests he will pretend to
uphold, and make himself a blind tool in the hands of the
Member for Somersetshire.—(Cheers and laughter. )—That
the progress of that question may be accelerated, is my
most anxious desire ; and to it I have long directed my ata
tention and devoted my talents. As it is the custom to
talk of sacrifices, I may mention mine. I have quitted a
sitnation in this House which, considering the influence of
opinion and feeling, was in the highest degree grateful to
me ; and in which I was surrounded and (if it may be per-
mitted me to say so) supported by one of the largest, the
must important, the most honourable, and, now I may say
it, for Iwas privy to all their Councils, and my motives
cannot be suspected, the most disinterested Opposition that
ever sat within the walls of this House—(Cheers)—who
supported what they deemed right, though it kept them
out of power, and confirmed their adversaries in office; and
who persevered in that course year after year, without a
possible hope of benefit ever accruing to themselves.—
(Cheers.)—l have quitted that honourable and eminent
station, enough to gratify the ambition of the proudest of
men, on an express stipulation, which utterly excludes
the possibility of my taking office.—(Cheers.)—l have
clone so deliberately and advisedly. I shall be sufficiently
gratified in watching the progress of those opinions to
which I am attached, both as to our foreign and domestic
policy including with the rest, the Irish Question, but not
giving it a prominence which would render it exclusive,
and impede its success by making it unpopular in this coun-
try by arousing the religious jealousy of the people. When
I say that I have not become a party to any arrangements
with regard to office, I wish it to be understood, however,
that the union which has taken place between parties lately
divided will have my cordial and uniform support. My
taking office would have stood inthe way of those arrange-
ments, and I therefore at once voluntarily, and without
waiting for a suggestion from any one, resigned all my
claims to office. I have felt this explanation due, because
I have always held the conduct of every public man to be
public property, and his character to belong to his coun-
,try.—(Cheers.)
Mr. CANNING, the CHANCELLOR of the EX-
CHEQUER, rose next. I feel, said he, that it would be
=courteous to the House, and to. my Right Honourable
Friend (Mr. Peel), if I let this debate dose, without ex-
pressing the sentiments which his speech excited less than
it confirmed. Though I have not risen expressly for the
purpose of replying to the calls made on me from different
parts of the House, yet I am perfectly willing and quite
prepared, I trust, to return satisfactory answers. To begin
with my Right Honourable Friend (Mr. Peel). He has,
in one or two instances, appealed to my testimony for the
confirmation. of some parts of the narrative of his own
conduct. I. confirm them in the fullest degree. Through-
out all the diseuisions that I have hail since Parliament

in all our constant and confidential intercourse, I have al-
ways found him in every point the same. He has always
used the same expression of sentiments, and shewn the same
exhibition of principle, that he claimed for himself in his ad-
dress this evening.—(Cheers. )—The House will have very
much mistaken my condition, if they believe it one of ex-
ultation or pleasure, or even if they suppose it productive
of feelings of complete satisfaction. From the beginning
of these discussions, I foresaw—we both foresaw—that they
must terminate in a separation—would to God it may be
but for a time !—between my Right Hon. Friend and my-
elf. I declare most solemnly, that if the question, whe-
ther that separation should be effected by his retirement
from office or mine, had been left in my hands, I would
have decided it in the latter alternative.—(Cheers.)—My
Right Hon Friend had the courtesy to state to me yester-
day, that he should make some observations this evening to
the House. I had therefore the opportunity, for which I
thank him, of doing that, without which I could not have
addressed the House satisfactorily. I have asked and ob-
tained his Majesty's gracious permission to state such pas-
sages of the late negociation, as may be necessary to my
vindication. And first, I beg to assure the Right Hon.
Gentleman and the House, that I was not unaware of the
peculiar difficulty attendant on the formation of a new
Administration, from the state of the Catholic Ques-
tion ; for I did counsel his Majesty, when he did me the
honour to advise with me, to make a Government in
every respect conformable to those opinions. To carry
that counsel into effect, would have, of course, involved
the necessity of my retirement from office; but I can de-
clare most conscientiously, that I would have laid at the
feet of my Sovereign the situation I have the honour to
hold, with a more cheerful heart, and with an assurance of
a quicker termination of the difficulties to which I have
alluded, than I have since been disposed to entertain in the
subsequent part of these transactions. It was not for me
to offer advice to my Sovereign as to the mode by which he
was to accomplish the formation of a Cabinet opposed to
my own opinions ; but the fact is most truly as I have
stated it ; I did propose to withdraw myself altogether
from the Administration, and I did advise the King to form
a new Administration, according to the principle I have
mentioned. Now, why did I do this? Why did I, who
have hitherto differed from many of my late Colleagues
upon this question, and who, as has been truly observed,
thus differing, still continued to act with them? Why did
I thus stake the existence of an Administration, even
though divided on the subject of the Catholic Claims, and
advise his Majesty to form an Administration wholly hos-
tile to those claims ? I will state my reasons briefly for
that course. Not many months ago, his Majesty received a
letter from a source to which I cannot nor will not allude,
most strenuously advising his Majesty to place the Govern-
ment of the country in a state of uniformity, and that
uniformity to be an uniform and decided opposition
to the Catholic Claims. Lord Liverpool, to whom a
letter of the same description was addressed, at the same
time as that of which I have spoken, as being sent to his
Majesty, upon receiving a communication upon the subject
from the King, addressed to that exalted personage a letter,
in which be said that, for his part, having been the author
and it might be said the first originator of a Government
formed upon the principle of entertaining divided opinions
with respect to the Catholic Claims, he, for one, never
could consent to become a member of any Government mo-
delled upon the principle of exclusion ;—(hear, hear)—and
his Lordship added, that as he was called upon to give his
advice to his Majesty, be must say that, in his opinion, it
would be extremely difficult to accomplish such a forma-
tion.—(Hear, hear.)—l say, therefore, Sir, that when
I felt myself placed under the necessity, as a Counsellor of
the Crown, of advising his Majesty to attempt the forma-
tion of such a Government, it was not for me to estimate
the difficulty of the task—it was not for me to take the
place of those Counsellors who counselled the necessity of
such a course, and petrit out how difficulties might be
surmounted or objections overcome. It was not fbr me, I say,
to point out how it might be done ; but I could not disguise
it from myself, as I had felt it my duty not to disguise it from
my Sovereign, that although the formation of such a Minis-
try was a work of very great difficulty- ;t was not a task of
absolute impracticability.—(Hear.)—N.nv, for what rea-
son that advice was not acted upos,by whose advice or by what
counsel it was determined to abandon that course, I do not
know—and more than I know I will not say—but from
the time when I first saw the-King, and pave the advice I
have described, down to the period when his Majesty came
to town, I had no knowledge of any certainty, that the
advice I gave had not been adopted. So far, therefore,
from seeking or soliciting, as the Hon. Gentleman charges
me, the post which I have now the honour to hold, I with-
drew myself altogether from any participation in the ar-
rangements, in order that the experiment which was said
to be so loudly called for by the country might be fairly
tried—that experiment which was alluded to, and sought
to be enforced, by the abortive motion of the Hon. Mem-
ber for Somersetshire (Sir T. Lethbridge), I mean not,
however, to be guilty of any incivility ; but I repeat, that
I withdrew in order to have that experiment fully and
fairly tried; and I declare to God that there was nothing
at that moment nearer to my heart, than that my stepping
out of the way might remove every obstacle to that trial.—
(Hear, hear, hear.) But when it was distinctly stated to
me that such an Administration could not be formed, and
when I received his Majesty's commands to model a Go-
vernment on the same principle as that of Lord Liverpool,
of which I had been a Member, nothing, I conceived, could
possibly remain but to construct a Government of the divided
character to which I have alluded, upon the subject of Catho-
lic Emancipation, with the necessary consequence, that
the question of the removal of Catholic Disabilities should
not be made a measure of the Cabinet. But then, with
the proposal to form a Government upon that principle—
upon the very principle of my predecessor, came a new
question—a question which at once involved the point of,
whether I was to remain in the situation to which I had
been raised, disgraced in my own opinion, and discredited
in the eye of my country, or whether I was to receive from
the hands of my Sovereign, undiminished and unencum-
bered, that inheritance which a dreadful misfortune, for
dreadful I may indeed call it, had cast upon his disposal.
Now what was it I proposed? What was it I had it in
command to do in the reconstruction of the Government ?
To form a Ministry upon the principle of Lord Liverpool's
Administration. That the Government should even con-
sist of the very same individuals, I am sure I had no ob-
jection. But what was proposed to me ? That I, having
his Majesty's commands to form a Government upon the
very same principles as those of my lamented predecessor,
should place at the head of that Government another per-
son, holding upon the subject of the Roman Catholic
Claims Lord Liverpool's opinions—(Hear, hear) ?—Now
what was it I was desired to sanction by the adoption of
that course? What principle is it I was called upon to
admit ? Why, I was desired plainly to say, that I, hold-
ing the opinions I have repeatedly avowed myself to hold
upon the Catholic Question, am thereby disqualified from
being placed at the head of the Government—(Loud
cheers.) I was called upon to acknowledge in the face of
the country, that I, forming an Administration upon the
principles of Lord Liverpool—that is, of divided opinions
on the Catholic claims, was—from the very holding of a
different and divided opinion, disqualified from taking the
highest office in that Government.—(Cheers.)—l will re-
tire altogether and for ever from public life ; I will betake
myself to the farthest boundary of the earth, and into
perpetual banishment ; I will resign any and every hope
of office—for I care nothing for office—but I will not
disgrace myself by consenting to sanction a principle which
could only bring degradation to those who must become
the subject of such an exclusion upon account of their
opinions —(Hear, hear.)—To that principle, Sir, I re -
peat I could not submit. I would rather have quit-
ted office a thousand times, I would rather be proscribed
and persecuted by all who are disposed to proscribe
and persecute for opinions, than live to be execrated to all
futurity, for having, in my person, fixed such a blot upon
the cause of those who thought that every man was free to
hold opinions, although lie might not be able to persuade
others to adopt them.—(Cheers.)—l hope I have now
freed myself from the charges brought against me by the
Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Dawson), and satisfied the House
that I am not so much possessed with the spirit of over-
leaping ambition, as that Hon. Gentleman would have
them believe.—(Hear, hear.)—l have stated first, what is
literally the truth, that I expressed myself anxious to
retire; and in the second place, I have explained the terms
upon which I consented to remain. Forming an Admi-
nistration upon the principle of my predecessor, but not al-
lowing those opinions which I have hitherto held to ope-
rate as any disqualification, or to bar my enjoyment of
those privileges which I must have held had I not professed
to hold the others.—(Cheers.)—And now, not to use any
coarser language than that adopted by the Hon. Member
(Mr. Dawson), when he said the Government consisted
wholly of Catholics—and when he charges me with a
breach of faith for not having proposed to his Majesty
a Government according to my instructions—l can only
say, that the Hon. Member is right when he says I did not
execute my original intention, and I will explain how he is
right. When on the 12th day of April 1 went to the
chamber of my Sovereign, to propose that all the Members
of the late Cabinet and Government should remain Mem-
bers of the new Administration—and it ought to be recol-
lected that they were not, as the Hon. Member calls them,
Catholics, for if there was a preponderance it was rather
on the other side—was it my fault that, by a coincidence
singular enough, I by no means wish to call it any thing

credit to the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Peel) when he
touched upon that subject—was it, I say, my fault, that,
in the chamber of my Sovereign, I received six Protestant
resignations ?—(Cheers.)—The Hon. Gent. (Mr. Dawson)
has charged me with a breach of faith in not making my
Cabinet a mixture of half and half. But the Hon. Gent.
has forgotten to mention the simple fact, that I could not
do so, because the Protestant half withdrew themselves.—
(Cheers.)
Mr. PEEL (we believe) here observed, in a low tone,
that the Right Hon. Gentleman did not state the matter
quite correctly. There were not, we understood him to
say, so many resignations.
Mr. CANNING, resumed.—l certainly did take four of

these resignations in my pocket, and the other two I receiv-
ed, as I said before, in the presence of my Sovereign.
(Mr. Peel here observed, that one of them was not an
enemy to Catholic Emancipation.)—l beg pardon. There
was one Catholic Lord—(Lord Melville)--(A laugh)--among
the number of those who thus resigned ; and yet, we are
now told, these resignations grew out of the question of
Catholic Emancipation—(Hear, hear.)—Amongst them,
however, came one Lord, who had not that plea. To him,
I did not, from the first, mean to allude, and I will not now
abandon my determination---(Hear, hear.)—Five of these
resignations came, however, in twenty-four hours ; and I
would now ask the House, whether it was fair, after such
an abandonment of place by these five Protestant Peers, to
impeach me of a wilful non-execution of the orders of my
Sovereign—(Hear, hear.) ?—But the matter did not end
there. About the middle of Thursday—l believe it was
on a Thursday when the House adjourned—about two
hours before the meeting of the House, and after I had given
directions to move a new writ for my return, I sent to the
King a communication to the following effect :—" Here-
with I inclose that which disables me to execute the com-
mands with which I have been honoured upon the subject of
the formation of the Cabinet. It is now as open to your Ma-
jesty to take any' new course you may consider expedient to
the immediate execution of your wishes, as if I had not re-
ceived the commission with which I have been intrusted—
no step having been vet taken which can be at all consider.•
ed irrevocable; but ithink it becomes my duty to state openly
and fairly to your Majesty, that it will be impossible for
me to go on im the course you have prescribed, if my writ
i,s not moved for before the adjournment during the boli:
days." I cannot repeat his Majesty's answer, but it is
sufficient to say that his Majesty gave me permission to
form an Administration, and commanded those things
which by my hand have been brought to pass.—(Hear,
hear.)—This then, Sir, is the situation of the present Ad-
ministration, alai these are the means which have been
adopted in its formation.--(Hear, hear.)—l have meddled
not with the condmit or the motives of others. I appre-
ciate in the fullest degree the delicate forbearance of the
Right Hon. Gentleman, when be felt bound to allude
' to the motives of others, and I feel bound to imitate
that forbearance. What the motives of others were, there-
fore, I repeat, I cannot say. The results came as I have
stated. These results have to me been most painful. I
' say painful; and the more sc, as I may say the feeling of
opposition which they exhibit, was to me, in eve!), in-
stance—always excepting that single question I have men-
tioned—wholly unexpected. I really am in ignorance of
_ .

the cause of that opposition. Ido not know how I have
sinned against my late colleagues. I have never know-
ingly excited any feelings of hostility in the breast
of any single individual of those who formed the late
Cabinet. Between my Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Peel)
and myself on every question, public or foreign, on every
private arrangement—on every point of domestic manage-
ment, with, I repeat,one well-known and unhappy exception,
there was at all times the strictest uniformity of opinion.—
There does not exist, indeed, 1 may say, a single indivi-

th,ll who.p sentiments upon every question were in more
perfect accordance`with Joy own ; and I do not think the
country could possibly have sustained a greater calamity
than in being deprived of that Right Hon. Gentleman's
services, not only in the department over which he so be-
neficially and honourably presided, but in the general coun-
cils of the country, although it is still happily open to him

to continue his career of usefulness by taking a Part in the
general business of this House.—(Hear, hear.)—As to
the remainder of my late colleagues, I repeat, I am igno-
rant of the cause of their secession. So far, at least, as I
know, every part of that course of foreign policy I have
felt it my duty to pursue in supporting the interests of the
country, has always received their unqualified approbation.
At least, nothing has come to my hearing, either in Par-
..

liament or in the Cabinet, which indicated any thing but
perfect agreement of opinion. I cannot charge my me-
mory with even the sliglitCsf gyrriptom of any alienatithi,
and I have already expressed my determination uot to at-
tempt any conjecture"as to motive. As lam resolved not
to say any thing which may be called unkind, I have ab-
abstained, therefore, la what I have said, from stating any

thing more than how I am situated with respect to those
Noble Persons, And how I came to be so.—(Hear, hear.)
There were, however, one or two topics adverted to by the
Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Peel), upon which he must
permit me to say a few words, and upon whith I think he
has proceeded rather upon a mistake, than from iany in-
tentional misrepresentation. The Right Hon. Gentleman
when he addressed the House, said, how was it _possible not
to perceive, that without doing any thing active in the
cause of the Catholics, without moving even a finger in
their support, my mere existence in my presCiat position.
and the absence of those others—for whose absence, be
it recollected, I am not responsible—must be taken as
a moral promotion of that question upon which we have
been hitherto divided.—(Cheers.)—Sir, I cannot possibly
deny the truth of that observation—(Cries of hear.).—
It is literally true ; and any one who will take the
trouble to put that question and that answer together,
must find in the answer a reply to the taunts; of the Hon.
Member for Somerset (Sir T. Lethbridge), when speak-
ing of the support which the Opposition have declared
their intention to bestow upon the present Administration.
That Opposition have declared their intention to support
me. And why? Because they see the very same thing
about to come to pass as the Right Hon. Gentleman—that
without stirring, as I have said, a single step in the advo-
cacy of the cause they have espoused, nay mere existence
where I am is an unquestionable advance of their object
(Hear, hear.)—lf it be so, as it is I cannot help it. lam
ready to anticipate the advantages which it confers. But
surely the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Peel) .is not pre-
pared to contend that a reason which has been good for him
is bad for them.--(Hear.)—Surely he is not disposed to
contend that if he was justified in resigning his situation
because he thought the Catholic cause, which he opposes,
received an impulse by my advance, others are equally jus-
tified in saying they will support me, because the question
which they support has received that impulse.—(Cheers.)
If, therefore, the Catholic cause receives a support, not by
any of my endeavours, hut merely from the effect of an im-
pulse created by my situation, surely I cannot help the con-
sequences; and I can only say, in reply to the taunts of
the Hon. Gentlethan (Sir T. Lethbridge) upon the subject
of the support of the Opposition, that I trust they will
upon those subjects afford me the support which I may be
found to deserve, tempered only by that degree of difference
which may be found to exist b..tween us.—(Hear.)—How
I would ask, does the Catholic Question stand now? I

say, it stands precisely as it did in the year 1812—that is,
from a particular part of the year 1812—for there is a
difference. The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Peel), in
adverting to that point, has not sufficiently distinguished
one part of that year from the other, and by that means
created an apparent inconsistency. It is tiresome to refer
to books ; but I must take leave to trouble the House with
a short extract from a work which I have sent for since
the Right Hon. Gentleman addressed the House. In as-
signing my reasons on the 25th of May, in the year 1812,
for not joining Lord Liverpool's Administration, the Right
Hon. Gentleman has remarked that I said, the taking any
part in a Calsinet, constituted in the manner proposed by
the Noble Earl, would have the effect of smothering my
own opinions upon the subject of the Catholic Claims ;
and yet, en the 22d of June in the same year the question
was proposed by me, and carried by a large majority. I
admit that; but I would ask, was there nothing interven-
ing between May and June to produce such an event ?
That is the material fact which the Right Hon. Gentle-
man has omitted. On the 25th of May, Lord Liverpool
came to me with a proposal to take a part in that
Administration of which he was appointed the head.
After one or two questions-1 believe, index ', after
one preliminary question—l asked (the Right Hon.
Gentleman here read from the Annual Register of that
year, apologising for the want of any better reference, by
stating he was taken wholly by surprise)—'4 Whether I
was to consider the opinion and policy of the Government
as remaining altogether unchanged, upon the question re-
lating to the laws affecting the Roman Catholics ?" Lord
Liverpool answered, " that his own opinions upon this
subject remained unchanged, and that he was not aware
that those of his Colleagues bad undergone any alteration."
—Now, what was the difference between this period and
that to which I have alluded ? Mr. Percival and Lord
Castlereagh both declared, in Lbate, on the 22d of April,
but the month before, that the Cabinet were unanimously
of opinio,,, the question I relief to the Roman Catholics
could not be conveniently agitated at that period, nor was
there any hope of coming to any satisfactory conclusion
upon the subject. At that time, therefore, the Cabinet was
constituted on the footing of a general resistance to the
claims of the Roman Catholics; and in that state of things
I refused to join the existing Administration. On the

operate. In the month which followed April, and after
the death of Mr. Percival, a great change took place,

and the Catholic Question was then placed upon that foot-

ing which it has ever since retained—(hear!). After the
death of Mr. Percival, during whose administration opi-
nions in favour of the Catholics were not to be mentioned
by a Cabinet Minister, things were so far changed that a
Cabinet Minister was not only allowed to think the Catho-
lics might be emancipated, but even to speak, if he thought
proper, in their favour. The question was then placed, I
repeat, upon that position, in accordance with which the
Right Hon. Gentleman and myself have acted for so many
years ; and I remember well that the great advocate of the
cause (Mr. Grattan) held that alteration in the constitu-
tion of the Cabinet as a great victory, and every one!of its
supporters looked upon it as a material change in the
prospects of those who sought to he relieved—as a proof,
indeed, that it was a change, and a material one, the ques-
tion was almost immediately after carried, as has been
observed, by a large majority. There was no inconsistency,
therefore, in that part of my conduct to which the Right
Hon. Gentleman alluded.—(Mr. Peel here made an obser-
vation, but whether of \assent or dissent we could not per-
ceive.)—Then I will take it the other way; and say I was
consistent; I opposed the agitation of the question when
circumstances rendered it inexpedient, and I supported it
when those circumstances rendered it likely to be suc-
cessful. I have not the vanity to suppose that any thing
I said could have had an influence upon the question; but
only three weeks after I urged the excuses to which I have
referred, the following conversation took place in the House
of Commons. The Right Hon. Gentleman then read the
following passages from the Parliamentary Debates :
" Mr. SPENCER STANHOPE rose for the purpose
of putting a question to the Noble Lord opposite. He
wished to know if it was intended on the part of the pre-
sent Ministers, that the same policy in every respect should
be observed by them, in reference to the Catholic Question,
which has been observed by the Administration under the
conduct of a late Right Hon. Gentleman?

" Lord CASTLERZAGII said, that he felt some diffi-
culty
in answering the question of the Hon. Gentleman
literally, the arrangements for the new Ministry not haying
been yet fully completed. But as to the spirit of the
question, lie thought, he could he more satisfactory. He
could say this, from his knowledge of those employed in
forming that Administration, that generally their senti-
ments remained the same. Upon a former occasion they
had thought, inclusive even of those who were favourable
to the measure, that the present was not the time for dis-
cussing the question ; and in still thinking so, the recent
decisions of Parliament formed a leading consideration in
influencing the adoption of that opinion. The sense of
Parliament having been, at- least for the present, defi-
nitively pronounced, they thought that any immediate re-
vived disciission would only create irritation, without being
productive of any thing useful. He was aware, however,
oft', growing change, in favour ofthose claims; and in sub-
mission to that change, and the real sentiments of certain
members of the Government, it had been resolved upon as
a principle, that the discussion of this question should be
left free from all interference on the part of the Government,
~ad that every member of that Government should be left
to the free and unbiassed suggestions of his own conscien-
tious discretion."

On the 25th of May, the House will therefore perceive
that all was resistance to the Catholic Claims in the Cabi-
net. On the 25th of June all was altered either into ac-
quiescence in assertion of opinion or absolute support--
(Hear.)--But, to come to the point, the question remains
at the present moment, just as it was described to be by
Lord Castlereagh in the year 1812, and as I myself de-
clared that it remained in the very last debate upon the
state of Ireland in the year 1823. On that occasion I

perceive I used these words :—" He held himself as per-
fectly free as any other member of that House, to pro-
nounce an opinion upon that as a great national riuestion,
and as such to give it bis support, reserving only to himself
the right of-selecting the time when he was to give that
support, and the manner in which it was to be afforded,
according to his judgment of the degree of success which
was likely to attend such exertion." Those were the
words I used then, and my opinions are not in the slightest
degree varied at the prese:•t moment. The footing upon
which the Government now stands is this—that each Mem-
ber of the Administration is at liberty to exercise his judg-

ment in suppOting or opposing the. Catholic Claims; but
if any Member of the Cabinet, or the Government, thinks
proper to bring forward any proposition to carry into
effect his partieular views, he, must do so individually

. -
and state, at the same time, in his place in Parliament,
iliat capacity.—(Cheers.)—l
have thought that, as the question has stood for fifteen
years sineolßlSlY. it ought to. stand still. lam satisfied
that it shoukl stand, so: I never thought that it could have

been objected to. Looking at the state of men's minds
upon the subject—a state better alluded to than explained
—I concieutiously. believe that it is the only footing upon
which,_ at present, it safely can stand—(cheers o—and if
there be any who would seek to push forward the question
beyond that point, and hope to accomplish their object, by
a premature exertion of power on the one hand ; or if there
be others who would not hesitate tostifle all just and natural

expression 'of feeling or opinion, at the risk of a national
convulsion, I can only say that I am not of their number)
and that I am not prepared for the consequences of a con-
vulsion in either England or Ireland.—(Loud cheers.)--
I remember very well how much turned upon thievery subject
during the last debate. I remember it was said that things
had been done and words spoken, which ought not to
have been done or spoken ; and that we ought "not,
therefore, to use expressions. or hold out hopes which
we could not possibly realise. Much as I estimate the
importance of this measure—and God knows it is of para-
mount importance—yet I value as highly, I will not say
mere highly, that tacit mode of resistance which, at present,
prevails in this country. No consideration could induce
me to run hostile to that ; but if you ask me, do I there-
fore despair that the Catholic cause can ever he triumphant,
I say—no. I cannot feel despair upon such a subject.
By a tranquil, steady perseverance in our course, not by a
factious opposition to fixed opinions, as some ill-advised
persons would suggest ; by ,a wise and judicious adherence
to argument and reason, I see the time ripening fast, when
well-disposed men in this country will look back with sur-
prise to the coin se they have pursued, and wonder
that they could have been deluded by any bugbear to
a resistance to our wishes. But I repeat, lam not
disposed to run counter to these opinions, however
erroneous ; for I value one week of peace in England,
before the hastening or accomplishment of almost any theo-
retical or practical good whatsoever. I know, however,
that darkness will be followed by illumination—l expect
that the night of darkness will be followed by the dawn,
and I await its coming; but I never can allow it to be said,
that the advocate of freedom, of conscience forced con-
science to consent to freedom.—(Cheers. )---I hope I have
on this subject explained myself clearly—(Cheers)—as well
as upon the other points to which the Right Honourable
Gentleman alluded. It is not for me to attempt to lay
open the penetralia, or to explain what is passing in the
privacy of the Royal breast. I respect that illustrious
Person's prejudices as much as I venerate those motives
which actuated his Royal Father ; but if I am asked whe-
ther I consider the Coronation Oath to be any obstacle to
the accomplishment of Catholic Emancipation, I say no—
no more than Lord Liverpool thought it--(Cheers)—no
more than it is thought to be an obstacle by the Right
Honourable Gentleman himself--=-(Cheers;)—and if this
was the time to argue that point, I would undertake
to derive some of the best reasons for what I propose,
from what has been advanced upon that subject. Let not
those who oppose us say now, that hopes arc excited which
must blast the peace of Ireland. Does the Hon. Gentle-
man who talked of silence upon that subject, believe that
such a thing is possible ? The question may sleep for a time,
but it is that sleep from which it will awake with renovated
strength to the accomplishment of its final triumph. Look-
ing at the question as it stands now, and judging accord-
ing to the evidence which presses upon me, I cannot con-
ceal from myself the fact, that the question has gained a
vast accessien of force, although, God knows, that gain
was not of my seeking. But it was not gained in that
manner which could induce me to force it upon this
House, when I see so large a portion of the community
holding a contrary opinion.—(Hear, hear, hear.)—l sin
not aware that I have now left any thing material to
answer. If there be eny subject upon which information
or explanation is required, I shall feel obliged to the querist
who may afford me the opportunity to answer. [The
Right Hon. Gentleman here paused for a moment, and con-
tinued.] lam where lamby no seeking of mine. I pro-
posed a course by which I must have been excluded altogether
from office, and the principle I protested against was one to
which I could not submit unless I was prepared, as I said be-
fore, to compromise my character, by allowing that the opi-
nions! hold on the subject of the Catholics must be considered
as a kind of disqualification for the highest official situation.
When, in 1822, I was called from a situation of wealth and
power and ambition, and when I made a sacrifice of the
advantages which that situation conferred—no inconsider-
able sacrifice, let me sa.:. , for a poor man—l accepted the
office which was not only not of my seeking, but which
was against my inclination—l accepted it, so help me God,
without any stipulation. And had the offer been accom-
panied, as it ought to have been (had I been dealt honestly
by) by any stipulation—had it been intimated to me, that
my services were to be accepted as long as it might be con-
sidered convenient to receive them ; but that if the office
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