The Sun.
London, England, 1827-06-19 00:00:00

POOR OF IRELAND.

Lord CARBERY had to present three important
petitions on this subject. It would be in the recollection
of their Lordships, that, in August last, distress existed
to a very great extent among the poor of the city of Cork.
In that unfortunate state, the principal inhabitants called
upon their Mayor to call a public meeting, to consider
the best means of alleviating the prevailing distress. In
consequence of that requisition, a meeting took place, and
lie had never seen a subject of such importance discussed
with more temper and moderation. The result of the
meeting was, that a petition should be presented to their
Lordships. During the last forty years, the population of
Ireland had more than doubled ; forty years ago, it
amounted to about three millions and a half. The poor
of Ireland were not like the poor of England, collected
in villages; they resided in detached houses, and unless
their condition was brought under the notice of charitable
individuals, they might die of want. He admitted that,
by Act of Parliament, the establishment of houses of in-
dustry was directed, and by right they might claim admis-
sion; but when he stated that the whole of the public and
private funds appropriated for that purpose amounted to
only 46,0001., they would perceive that such means were
but little calculated to afford any adequate relief. His
Lordship then concluded by presenting the petitions.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, that with
respect to part of what had been said by the Noble Lord,
there were parts of Ireland where that system had been put
a atop to. It was a subject peculiarly for the considera-
tion of those Noble Lords connected with Ireland, particu-
larly for the Noble Marquis who was now enjoying his °Gant
cum dignitate, and whose attention to the subject had led
to the expectation that when he took office in that country
some benefit would be derived from the advantage it would
enjoy from his great talents.—(Hear, hear.)
The Earl of KINGSTON moved that the petitions be
read, in order that it might appear by whom they were
signed.
The petitions were then read.
The Earl of LIMERICK was happy that the petition
had been read to their Lordships, and would venture to say,
that a more curious one had never been offered to their
Lordships. As often as the subject of introducing the poor
laws bad been mentioned in that House, he had delivered
his opinion that no measure could be so mischievous to
that country as that subject which had been brought
forward with The best intentions by the Noble Lord.—
, ge did not think think this petition was entitled to much
consideration from their Lordships, when brought forward
at this late period of the Session ; and he feared it would
not be productive of good.
Lord CARBERY, in explanation, said, that his state-
ment included the gross amount of the funds of the dis-
pensaries in every county in Ireland, and the petition was
signed by the first merchants in Cork.
Lord FARNHAM knew that the introduction of the
Poor Laws into Ireland would meet with great opposition
from the landed proprietors ; yet he thought that every
civilized country ought to provide for the maintenance of
those disabled by age or sickness. If the people of any
country more than another required such a provision, it
was the people of Ireland. Since the Union, the habits of
the people of Ireland were so changed, that every landed
proprietor sent his children to be educated in England. It
was difficult to get over early habits ; and the associations
they formed here tended to prevent their return to Ireland.
It was admitted that the peasantry of Ireland never heard
of their landlord but under unpleasant circumstances. He
should be as sorry as the Noble Lord to see the English
system of Poor Laws introduced into Ireland, but he
thought the abuses of the English Poor Laws were a
warning to them to introduce only such a system as would
be beneficial to the peoples at the same time that it was
free from the objections complained of. He hoped next
Session that some measure of the sort would be adopted.
The Earl of LIMERICK begged to say a single word
on the subject. The results of the Union had been spoken
of, and he well recollected what had been said at the time
that measure was proposed. It had been said, that as
one of the contracting parties they must abide by whatever
alteration the English Parliament
might choose to introduce
into that country; all he now said wag, that if ever he
should live to see the day when the poor-laws should be in-
troduced into Ireland, he should most deeply deplore having
ever given his weak assistance to that measure.
The go of DARNLEY regretted that his Noble

Friend's angry feelings had been so excited on the subject,
and that his indignation always boiled over when the subject
of introducing the poor laws into Ireland was mentioned.
He had given way to the Noble Lord opposite, because well
aware that no one was better acquainted with the state of
Ireland, and that he was one of its most useful resident pro-
prietors. Their Lordships were not to be told that the
poverty and misery of 7,000,000 of their countrymen were
not entitled to consideration when petitions were presented
to them on the subject—a state to which their attention
must be called at some time or other. It was not possible
for things to continue to exist in this state, and that in one
part of the empire individuals should be suffered to die in
the streets. If his Noble Friend, the next time he visited
his property in Ireland, would divest himself of his preju-
dices, he had no doubt he would view the question in a dif-
ferent light. He hoped his Noble Friend would bang for-
ward some measure on the subject next Session ; he would
not pledge himself to any particular mode of proceeding,
but, as far as it depended on him, the question should not
sleep another session.
Lord GODERICH was anxious to say a few words on
the petitions that had been presented. If he was not mis-
informed with regard to the habits and feelings of the
poor of Ireland, there was nothing for which they were
more remarkable than their kindness and attention to their
fellow poor; and he could not help fancying that the in-
troduction of the poor laws might tend to harden their
hearts. (Hear, hear.) He threw out this suggestion to
guard their Lordships against proceeding in too great a
hurry to introduce this system into Ireland.

The Marquis of SALISBURY said, that if any thing
was a curse to this country, it was the poor laws ; and he
wished to suggest to those Noble Lords connected with
Ireland, who were disposed to introduce a similar system
into that country, to make themselves acquainted with
their practical details and effects here first.
The Earl of DARNLEY explained.

Lord REDESDALE believed that the proprietors of
land in Ireland were in the habit of giving relief to the
poor, where they had the means of so doing. If any mea-
sure of this kind were to be tried at all, it ought to be in
large towns like Cork; for which purpose an act of Par-
liament might be had applicable to the peculiar circum-
stances of the case.
The Earl of BELMORE understood from the Noble
Lord that it was his intention to move for a Committee on
this subject.—(" No," from Lord Carbery.)—The Noble
Lord dissented. Then he (Lord Belmore) did not know
what to say about it. In that part of the cuantry where
he resided, the land was taxed at a rate varying from Ss.
to I Is. an acre. In consequence, therefore, of this high
state of taxation, there would be great difficulty in esta-
blishing poor laws there.
The Marquis of LANSDOWN would not have taken a
part in this conversation, but for an allusion on the part
of a Noble Marquis. It would be recollected that the ob-
ject, or rather the effect of the poor laws in England was
two-fold—first, to relieve the aged and infirm ; and se-
condly, to assist those who had no employment. The first
object was a more limited one, and one which any person
acquainted with Ireland would be disposed to think de-
served the most serious attention. But as to the second,
considering the state of the population in Ireland as com-
pared with the means of employment, he feared it would be
surrounded with difficulties. He was not disposed to ob-
ject to the measure of providing dispensaries in different
parts of the country. He was happy to understand that
there were many dispensaries now, where there had not
been any before ; and he therefore thought that the Bill,
enabling, or, he believed, compelling Grand Juries to esta-
blish dispensaries, had been a most:salutary measure. He,
however, was anxious that no expectations should be excit-
ed in that country which it might afterwards be found im-
possible to realize.
Lord CLIFDEN knew that a great deal of charity was
bestowed in Ireland. He hardly knew a parish in which
a dispensary had not been established.
Lord CARBERY said that it was his intention, after
he should have presented two other petitions which he held
in his hand, to offer this proposition to the consideration of
their Lordships—" That an humble Address be presented
to his Majesty, praying that he would be graciously pleased
to direct an inquiry to be instituted by the Government
in Ireland as to the practicability of establishing a system
of relief for the aged and iufirm poor in Ireland, either by
parochial assessment or other means more suited to that
part of the United Kingdom; and to order that such in-
formation that might be obtained on that subject be laid
before the House at the next meeting of Parliament." His
Lordship then presented two other petitions from parishes
in Cork on the same subject.
The Earl of KINGSTON presented two petitions from
Cork, deprecating the introduction of Poor Laws into Ire-
land.

Tke Earl of BELMORE asked if the Noble Lord (Car-
bery) would make his intended motion now?
Lord CARBERY—Not now, certainly.
ADMIRALTY BILL.

On the motion of Lord GODERICH, the House re-
solved itself into a Committee on this Bill.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH had intimated an intention
to move the introduction of a clause, providing that all
Commissions signed by the Lord High Admiral should be
countersigned by one of the Council. But he now under-
stood that they must be countersigned by the Secretary;
and although he should prefer one of the Council, yet as
there was a second person responsible for the appointments,
he would not carry his intention into effect. It was
doubted by some legal gentlemen, whether the Crown bad
the power to separate the droits of the Admiralty, by
patent, from the Lord High Admiral, in whom the common
law vested them. He understood, however, that it was
the intention of the Noble and Learned Lord on the wool-
sack to turn his attention to this question, and therefore he
would not press it upon the attention of the House any
further at present.
The LORD CHANCELLOR had already directed his
attention to the subject.
After a few words from Lord TENTERDEN, and one
or two other Noble Lords, the clauses were all agreed to,
and the House resumed.

The Bill was then reported, and ordered to be engrossed.