The Sun.
London, England, 1829-05-16 00:00:00

Appl;ed to all Members. before tbey entereil
ti" fr. It stated that if any Member should Nr-
sz.vere to address that House before havii:g take,i
ihe oaths, he should by such an act cease to be
Member. If that Act were to be en"oreed;
!louse was bound to enforce it, he did not ,Ce
It were possible to allow the Hon. Member to a,!-
dress that House.
Mr.BROUGHAM said,that at present the How:0
knew nothing that the Hon. Member had to ad-
duce. Here was a Member presenting a certificate
from the officer of the Lord High Steward, auti;o-
rised by him to take the oaths, and signed by the
two commissioners, but the House knew nothing
of his reasons till they heard him. What-
ever his Honourable and Learned Friend might he
disposed to say on the subject, he. considered that.
the House could know nothing of his objections
till they heard them. He did not know Ivhether
his Hon. and Learned Friend might be allowed to
' put questions to him on the floor of the House on
the point of the certificate. That was quite
another thing, all the House then knew was, that
the Hon. Member had refused to take certain oat hs,
and agreed to take other oaths, and he would not
say whether they were not bound to allow him to
take those other oaths to which he did not object
—(Hear.)—if they were not bound to hear him
upon those which he did object to take.
Mr. PEEL did not think there was any material
difference whether the Hon. Member was allowed
to address the House .at the bar or at the tahle.
The whole subject was of such importance, that it
was useless coming to any decision upon any part
of it with precipitation. The Hon. and Learned
Member having made a motion, however, it was tic .•
eessary to have it discussed, but he hoped he would
see the propriety of postponing the motion till Mon-
day next, to allow every Metnbcr to come to the
discussion after a deliberate consideration of the

question.
Mr. SUGDEN observed, that the Honourable
Member could not have taken-the proper oaths
before the-Lord High Steward, because he had stared
himself prepared to object to them. The Hon. awl
Learned Member therefore might have spared him-
self his observations.
Mr. BROUGHAM But I had better not have
spared myself the observations.—(A laugh.)--
The Hon. and Learned Member seems to think that
because the Hon. Gentleman in question has pub-
fished a pamphlet out of doors, declaring that lie had
objections to the oaths that it was impossible for
him to have afterwards gone to the Steward's Office
and prepared himself for taking them. It is clear,
however, by the certificates which he produces, that
he has been there and has taken some oaths. It is
admitted on both sides of the House that this is a
is
aimndpcocrotanlsT(eie'raltiendal atten-
tion.
table or the bar, how-
etictiavosenrere; oqu fii
rtEetsihtiehst
eh
remc
aeomrtstotasittnsheer
gravetohat we must hear the
Honourable Member for Clare. Suppose he was
a petitioner, we have a right to hear him,
and in such a situation any man may be heard
here. Why not hear him now, if he is to be
heard at all ? I certainly consider that the de-
sire of the House ought to be to hear-trim. The
only question will be, whether he is to be heard at
the bar or the table, and I have no objection in com-
pliance with the wishes of the House to postpone
the discussion till Monday next.
After a few words from Sir F. riceomr, who
was inaudible in the gallery,
The SPEAKER stated that before he put the
thoughtqtlstn to
the
House,
he trustedbotlld it
put
themwould niont
fullb be
unreasonabletha
that he s
possession of the considerations which had deter-
mined him to take the course which he had, and
question
which he had before intended to take. The House
on all sides admitted that it was a subject of great
importance, both as to the consideration of the law,
and its application to the person. All I have to
state to the House, continued the Right lion. Gen-
tleman is, that though it is impossible for me to
differ from them on the great importance of the
question, and on the consequent necessity for delibe-
ration, it was for them to appoint the time for deli-
beration; and not for the Chair. The course which
I pursued, under the circumstances of the case, was
to take that line which the law of the country
pointed out to me: knowing, that if I were in error,
the House would set me right without prejudice to
this gentleman.—(Hear, hear.)—With respect to
not hearing the individual at the table, I found my-
self on this,—that I know of no instance where any
person has been heard, without a decision of the
House that he should be heard, short of being a
member of the House—(hear, hear,)—and it was
obvious if a debate were going on, with a person
thus situated standing on the floor of the House,
that he might subject himself, not to the provisions
of the statute of Elizabeth, but to those of the sta-
tute of Charles ll.—(Hear, hear.)--This is the
ground on which I stand.—(Hear, hear.)-1 do not
advance any thing to prejudice the case itself, but
merely state the ground on which I proceeded.
There is one other subject on which I will make a
single observation—that is, as to the oaths taken
before the Lord Steward or his Commissioners.
The House are well aware that the Lord Steward
and his Commissioners are not the officers of this
House. The certificate received from them, that
the person has taken the oaths, is put in by the pre.-
son receiving it; therefore, it is impossible for the
'House to know, in its aggregate capacity, what
oaths were taken ; and when no evidence is give-,
that improper oaths were taken, the preettmlltion is
that the oaths taken were proper.—(lier.r.)
Mr. TIERNEY said, the question simply was,
whether the Hon. Member for Clare should be
heard at the table or at the liar,—a question which
he thought ought to be settled at once. Because,
in point of fact, if it were not decided to-day,
another day would be lost, which he considered to
be a very great hardship to the Hon. Member for
Clare, who would not be able during that time to
know how he ought to proceed. Now if the motion
of his Hon. and Learned Friend were adopted, the
lion. Member for Clare might have been 'allowed
this evening to state at the table the grounds on
which he hesitated to take the oath proffered by the
clerk. It would not be necessary for them to de-
cide hastily on the argument which he might adduce,
—nothing would, indeed, be more proper than an
adjournment of the discussion, after the lion. Meot-
ber for Clare had been heard. (Hear.) But to
adjourn, without knowing what the Hon. Member
for Clare's argument was, appeared to him to be
perfectly absurd. The lion, Member for Clore
could not be heard at the-bar, or at the table, with-
out an application, The motion before the House
was a preliminary step, and the sooner it was de-
bmCeil
gabrheetadwasstill
a tbhteehat:i dmilorre;nnooatt:
igdafit
ttbtoheemataeaxkbetl table. If
piafpnp
de-
cided the better. He confessed that he saw no
n
difficulty in the case, whether the Hon. Member for
wouldGlieaatilibooe;r: allowed
od
to be heard at the table by a decision this evening, he
fix the day when he should be so heard. Hear.) This
was the most direct and consistent mode of proceed-
ing. It was, he contended, a question on which they
ought to be prepared to come to an immediate decie
sion, (Hear.) And if, as the Speaker had said, no
precedent could be found,—though he understood
from his Hon. and Learned Friend that there were
some,—that circumstance must render delay still less
nece,sary, But whether the precedents were more
or less, or none at all, some opportunity ought to
be given fee explanation to the person refusine to
take the oaths, He believed in three cases which
bad been quoted; the reasons given by the pn-ties
were very short,—and for any thing that he knew
the reasons of the Hon. Member for Clare might be
equally 50,.. (Hear, hear.)--But after a Member
had been reported, as regularly elected,—after he
had taken the oaths up stairs, the House, in its
wisdom, said—" We know not what to say or do."
--(A laugh,)-..'They ought, instead of putting off
the discussion, to decide at once to hear the Hon.
Member for Clare at the table; and if they decided
differently,. why then Ire might make his application
to be heard at the bar. If they proceeded differently
the Hon, Member for Clare, wliQ bad come end