The Sun.
London, England, 1842-04-22 00:00:00

He had never heard Metre shabby arguments, than those ad-
vanced in support of that principle. The Lord Mayor of
Dublin said he was in favour of triennial Parliaments, on ac-
count of the particular transaction which gave rise to the Sep-
tennial Bill. This would argue an abstract preference for the
origin of the present system, which was the Revolution, than
for the existence of a triennial system. The Honourable
Member for Bolton, more properly, used astronomical
arguments in favour of annual Parliaments. He said
the earth makes a revolution round the sun once a year,
the planetary system went through its orbit once a-year around
tt. at great luminary ; and he added with some pathos that mer-
cha•its settle their accounts once a loan —(Laughter. ) There-
fore, on the Copernican and the mercantile systems, the Hon.
Gentleman concluded that we should have Animal Parliaments.
He, therefore feared that if the Learned Doctor
set up an agitation against Triennial Parliaments his
astronomical arguments would shake the new system.
Next, the proposition for payment of Members, would be as-
suredly scouted on the other side. The Gallant Commodore
said that if the inhabitants of Marylebone would find him a
furnished house and two clerks, he would thankfully accept
them, but he would not impose them on his constituents.
Another point further to show the incoherent system advo-
cated by some of the Gentlemen opposite. The poor
man would say, I don't want to be represented,
but I want to sit in this House to represent
my fellow-workmen while you represent the rich", and I want
you to enable my fellow-workmen to elect me. But I cannot
do this if I must be at the expense of going to London, and give
up the shuttle or the spade; therefore, all I ask is thatlthe affluent
in circumstances should pay to enable me to sit in the House in
behalf of my fellow-workmen. But several of the Hon. Gentle-
men opposite would not allow this ; if the plan now proposed
was adopted iu a modified shape it would be appealed against,
as well on account of a perfect representation as as on ac-
count of defective franchise—in short, the defectiveness of the
principle of most of the Hon. Gentlemen opposite, as com-
pared to the desires for whom they avowed to speak, showed
that if he ( Sir R. Peel) should be in the House ten years
hence he would have to defend this law against themselves as he
now had todefend the Reform Bill. On their own principles of
of reason and nature they must disappoint the majority of the
working classes, and there would be as loud a cry as ever of a
master-class and a slave-class in the country. Again, the
Hon. Member for Rochdale proposed that England, Ireland,
and Scotland be divided into electoral districts, each to return
a Member to Parliament. The, result would be that
that each district would become a manufacturing
borough in a short time. Corruption would prevail as much
as it did before the Reform Bill, and the influence of landed
property would predominate. The next proposition was that
Members of Parliament should have no qualification. But he
need not recapitulate them. The disunion of the opposite
party upon these alleged great principles was confessed by
the Hon. Member for Coventry, when he said they agreed in
the principles, but differed as to the means, and he ( Sir 11.
Peel) agreed with the Honourable Member for Leicester,
it would be futile to go into a debate upon such premises,
and, however alarmed he might be at the alleged bribery
and corruption, and bribery of election and franchise, he must
oppose the motion. If he was asked what would best satisfy
the people of the country, his answer would be, that the House
ought to manifest that desire to ameliorate the condition of the
people by passing his Income-tax.—( Great laughter and cheers.)
This would show that they wished to throw the burdens of the
State on the wealthy classes. Let them, then, pass his Tariff,
and they would prove the desire to promote the comforts of the
mass of the people. Having done this substantial and intelligi-
ble service for them, they would dispense with the necessity of
disturbing the Constitution by notions like the present, and of
altering the representative system by a step which would dis-
appoint none more than those who, in carrying the
measure, would gratify their present wishes.—( deers. )
He would advise those who complained of the absence of the
Noble Lord, and who believed his financial propositions to be
wise, to stay away—( Laughter and cheers)—that was if, upon
the whole, they believed with the Hon. and Learned Member
for Northampton, that his measures were likely to benefit the
country. He asked them to retaliate upon the Noble Lord by
staying away, and not lend themselves to any party combi-
nation. —( Loud and long continued cheering.)
Mr. MUNTZ said that he hoped the Right Hon. Baronet
did not include him amongst those who ought to stay away.
—f Laughter.) As he had been one of those who took an
active part in endeavouring to obtain a reform of Parliament,
he could not think that the Right Hon. Baronet. ought now
to complain if he asked for the Bill, the whole Bill, and nothing
but the Bill?
Sir R. PEEL—You asked for it then.

Mr. MUNTZ (in continuation)—He did net ask for it
then, but he would ask the Honourable Baronet the Member
for Dorchester, whether they had the Bill, the whole Bill, and
nothing but the Bill?--( Hear, hear.) He asked him whether
they were to have a 101. franchise, or whether they were to
have it with many drawbacks?—( Hear, hear.) He asked
whether they were to have a 50/. leasehold tenancy-at-will
franchise ?—( Hear, hear.) He, therefore, contended that they
had not the Bill, the whole Bill, and nothing but the Bill. If
they had the entire Bill, the state of the country would not be
what it was.—( Hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman may have
great sympathy with the wants of the people, but the great
cause of complaint was, that the distress of the country was
owing to not having a proper reform of Parliament. He had
now mentioned the reason why he for one would support the
motion of the Hon. Member. He entirely approved of the vote
by ballot, and he had no objection to the payment of Alem-
hers, becau.e he believed they would the better attend to the
interests of. their constituents. He did net think that annual
Parliaments would do any good, and he considered that trien-
nial Parliaments would be sufficient for every good purpose.
He was not prepared to go the whole length with regard to the
suffrage. He thought it was a subject for serious considera-
tion, but he was of opinion that a very great extension of
the suffrage was necessary, and that it would not only be
for the benefit of the people at large, but for the interest of
the aristocracy themselves.—(Hear, hear.) It was his
opinion " that coming events cast their shadows before," and
no person ought to be more interested in looking to those
shadows than those who had the conducting of the Govern-
ment; and the debate of the night was one of these shadows.—
( Hear, hear.) He hoped the Right Hon. Baronet would
seriously consider how far it may be within his power to
comply with the demands, of the people. He should, for
the reason lie gave, vote fur the motion of the Hon. Member.

Mr. E. TURNER (who spoke amidst cries of " Oh, oh,"
and " Divide, divide") was understood to say that he would
vote for the motion of the Hon. Member for Rochdale,
though he would not, after what he had seen take place at
the annual municipal elections, vote for the system of annual
Parliaments.

Capt. PLUMIIIDGE said that he would cordially support
the motion of the Hon. Member except the last seven lines.
Mr. COBDEN said that the Right Hon. Gentleman had
very ingeniously managed to mystify the very simple question
before the House.—(oh, oh.) The question before the House
was, whether after the people of the country—be spoke of the
unrepresented portion—hat petitioned the House for the Char-
ter, they would go into a Committee without at the same time
pledging themselves to anythirg ?—( Hear.) The difference
between the Right Hon. Baronet and many Gentlemen on his
(Mr. Cobden's) side of the House whodiffered from the people
outside was, that notwithstanding that difference of opinion
they were ready to consider the claims of the people.
while the Right Hon. Baronet and his supporters would shut
the door upon them, and would not condescend to give them
any consideration.—( Hear, hear.) That was fairly the state
of the case—that was the plain statement of it—but the Right
Hon. Baronet mystified it and then slammed the doors of the
House upon the people.—( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon.
Baronet predicted that if the object of the motion were carried
out it would give increase to the power of the landlords, but the
Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Dorchester said that
it would disturb the monarchy. Were they to be treated
in that way with opinions as wide as the poles asunder?--
( Hear, hear.) Were the people in those circumstances to be
satisfied with the speculations of the Right Hon. Baronet ?
How dexterous and amusing soever he might be, that would
not satisfy the people in their present state and temper.—
( Cheers.) What was the condition of the people when they
talked of the Reform Bill? They knew it did not improve
their condition in any one resnect.—(Loud cheering from
the Ministerial benches.) He found a sufficiently loud re-
sponse to that from the Hon. Gentlemen opposite.--( Cheers. )
But were the people physically, or morally, or intellectually
better now than they were ten years ago ?—(Ministerial cheers. )
Were they not, in point of fact, a scandal to the whole of Eu-
rope ?—(" Oh, oh.") Was there any national education at
all ?—( Hear, hear.) Were they not the only people in Europe
without a national education ? Was there not more physical
suffering in this country than in all the rest of Europe .'—(" Oh,
oh.") And were these distresses and evils to be remedied by the
imposition of an Income-tax on the industry of the trading
classes of the country ?—( Hear. ) Would the country be deluded
by such pretences ? The real question was, and they should
not mystify what he said, was whether labour was to be re-
presented in that House or not. He would vote for the mo-
tion of the Honourable Member for Rochdale, on the
ground that the labour of the country ought to have
a full, fair, and free representation, and not from
any abstract theory of giving the people other
rights, but because it would insure to them a better state of
living. The very instincts of the people wouldsgive them better
fiscal laws than they received from that House.—( Hear, hear. )
The misrepresented people were pining and starving, while
hundreds of thousands of quarters of corn were locked in their
bonding warehouses. That would not be case if the people
were fairly represented.—(Hear, hear.) He believed the
middle classes would now have as much interest in giving
the franchise to the working classes as the working
classes themselves. The middle classes found they could
not ;lalit you. They tried you on the question of free trade.
And ‘, hat was the conduct of the party opposite? They had
succeeded by playing off one class against the other.—( Hear.)
That was the policy that was too apparent to be misunder-
stood by any one who had a seat in that House. Something,
had been said about danger to the aristocracy and the ino-
relly. The monarchy had been brought forward rather
ostsmatiously upon that occasion. Now he denied that there
was any anti-monarchial feeling among the people of this
country ; but he said that towards the aristocracy, and towards
that House, there prevailed a most intense feeling of hatred.—
(" Oh," oh," from the Ministerial benches.) Well, if there
were not such a feeling, where was the danger of giving the
people the franchise? He spoke after a pretty extensive ac-
quaintance with the working classes ; and lie did say, that in
the borough of Stockport, which he had the honour to re-
present, a most intense hatred would be found to prevail
among the vast majority of the adult population against the legis-
lation of that House. They attributed their distress directly to the
legislation of that House; they saw in their closed manufactories
the effects of that legislation, and he believed they were per-
fectly right. But where was the danger to the monarchy?
It was too bad to bring forward on such a subject as that the
name of her Majesty, which was snore popular than any Sove-
reign who ever preceded her on the throne ; it was most unfair
to bring forward her name, and to make the danger with
w!sich she was threatened a reason for denying justice to her
people.—(Cries of " Ilear, hear," and " Oh, eh.") He begged
to remind Hon. Gentlemen opposite that the movement for a
large extension of the franchise was not confined to men of
desperate fortunes or of reprobate characters. He begged to
remind them that there were men now at the head of that or-
ganisation who were equal to any of the aristocracy in moral
power and moral worth. He begged to remind them that
many of them were their equals in fortune. And where, he
would ask, was the danger to the monarchy from these men ?
Hear, hear.) There was one man in particular among
the advocacy of an extension of the franchise, who had achieved
for himself great distinction in another field, and who had
surrounded his name with a halo of glory in another clime—
one who had won for himself au honour Which Hon. Gentlemen
opposite were now attempting to filch from him for their own
parposes.—(Cries of " Name," from the Ministerial bunches.)
He could have no hesitation in naming him—he meant Mr.
Joseph Sturge.—( Laughter, and derisive cheers from the 111 inis-
Serial benches.) Yes ; and those who worked with bins in
the cause of the Africans, were joining with him now in work-
ing, out the emancipation of their poor fellow-countrymen,
who were suffering, he believed, as much of privation and of
misery at the hands of an aristocracy, as ever the negrocs did
at the hands of their owners in the West Indies.
Mr. JOHN ARTHUR ROEBUCK said, that he would
only occupy the attention of the House for a very few
moments. He should not like to allow the motion to go
to a division without expressing, in a very few sentences,
the mode in which he considered he was bound to act upon
that occasion. When he looked to the institutions of this
country, he saw certain rough methods introduced of attaining
a particular object ; the object sought to be attained being that
of getting that degree of intelligence in the governing body
hich might enable them to govern the country in the manner
most conducive to the general welfare. The mode hitherto
adopted, as he had already said of attaining that end, was by