Star.
London, England, 1808-04-09 00:00:00

' PARLiiimz.vrAßr PROCEEDINGS.

•
HOUSE OF LORDS, APRIL I.
Mr. WHARTON brought up from the Commons the Inn-
keepers' Bill, which was read a first time.
Mr. Irvin, from the Customs, presented certain accounts.
ROXBURGII ESTATES.
At two o'clock the LORD CHANCELLOR and several Peers
assembled, pursuant to order. The Counsel on that branch of
the Scots appeal respecting the Roxburgh Estates, wherein John
Ballenden Kerr, Henry Gawler, and John Seton Kerr, Esqrs. are
Appellants; and Sir James Norcliffe hisses, Bart. and Brigadier-
Oeneral Walter Kerr, are Respondents, Pere called in, and Mr.
John Clarke, as leading Coussel for the Appellants, was beard at
considerable length.--To proceed again to-morrow, at two o'clock.

SCOTCH JUDICATURE.
The LORD CHANCELLOR, on the Motion
for the second reading of the Bill, rose to make his
promised observations. His Lordship said, that the
measures he proposed by the Bill for their Lordship?
consideration were of the utmost importance, as they
regarded the administration of justice in Scotland,
and were every day become more necessary, by. the
increase of its commerce, agriculture, manufactures,
and population. He had long been convinced, as
their Lordships must also have been, that some re-
medy was absolutely required, to put a stop to the
number of appeals from that country. He did not
mean by this observation to impute any improper
conduct on the part of the Judges in Scotland ; but
their formslof proceedings were so complicated as to
make it absolutely impossible, in most cases, that the
parties could come to any issue, as it was called by.,
the gentlemen of the law in this country. The Judges
were also Judges of the law, the fact, and, by virtue
of the nobile ?Ai:am, of equity. This rendered their
decisions uncertain, and often contradictory. But
the great and almost only cause of the appeals was,
that the execution on the decisions of that Court was
sifted till the appeal was decided. This induced the
parties, nine times out of ten, to appeal, without any
pretence or ground whatever, but that of delay.—
He might, perhaps, be wrong as to such a dispro-
portion. but sure he was the evil existed in an enor-
mous degree. His Lordship then stated, that his
opinionshad been misrepresented, and it had been
asserted, that he was inimical to the trial by jury
being introduced into Scotland : but he could assure
their Lordships, he was not averse to the measure,
provided it could be adopted with advantage to that
country. He, however, saw at present insurmount-
able difficulties in making it a general measure, as
he thought there were many cases where a trial by
jury could not be resorted to. This was occasioned
by what he had already stated, namely, that the
Judges, by the nail( qfficium, were judges of the fact,.
of the law, and of equity. Were juries in these cases
to decide indiscriminately, the consequences would
be still worse than if no trial by jury had been adop-
ted. He thought likewise, that the people in that
country were not; prepared for trial by jury ; and
however that nation might be as capable as other na-
tions in learning, they certainly had no distinct no-
tion in general how decisions were given in trials by
jury in this country. This he was convinced of,
from the great variety of communications made- to
him on that subject, none of which had specifically
stated in what particular cases Juries should be intro-
duced to decide. With him it was a fixed principle,
that all changes and alterations, with a view to im-
provement, especially in such cases as the present,
should be gradual and progressive ; and, at the same
time, as much as possible in the original style and
character of that which is meant to be improved.—
When he considered the habits, the usages, and what
in law considerations the people of Scotland had been
accustomed to, on this ground it was proposed by the
Bill to divide the Court of Session into two divisions,
or chambers, in preference to three, as proposed by
the Bill brought in by a Noble Baron (Lord Gren-
ville) in a former Parliament • ow consisting of
eight Judges, in which the Lord President was to
preside ; and a second of seven Judges, at the head
of whom the Lord Justice Clerk was to sit. Were
he legislating for a people similarly circumstanced
to the English public in these respects, he should pre-
fer a division into three courts ; but the people of Scot-
land, he must repeat, were very differently circumstan-
ced. This division of the Court involved a variety of I
subordinate regulations, as to modes of proceeding ;
which, as being matter of detail, would be mere re-
gularly adverted to and discussed in a Committee of '
their Lordships, than on the present occasion. The
Bill before them differed in other material points from
that of the Noble Baron ; this contained no express
provision for the introduction of the trial by jury.—
On this point he would previously advert to the senti-
ment of that profound and venerable lawyer, the great
Lord Mansfield ; it was the decided opinion of that
great man—" That the trial by Airy, considering the
" existing and long-established system of the Scots
" law, and the habitudes of the people in those re-
spects, could not be advantageously introduced into
" that country." In some degree he coincided with
the opinion of that great Lawyer on this point. In
the present constitution of the Courts, and form of
proceeding, he thought it would be unadvisable to
introduce the trial by jury into the law of Scotl4d,
at least suddenly, or to any considerable extent.—
Another feature of difference between this Bill and
that of the Noble Baron, respected the establishment
of a Court of Review; such formed no part of the
present Bill, and at present he forebore to say any
thing on that point. He Lordship would now come
to the latter provisions of the Bill, which proposed
the institution of Commissioners, with powers to in-
quire into the forms of process, the modes of proceed-
ing, &c. in the Scots Courts, the fees and emoluments
of certain officers ; and also into what cases, and in
what manner and form, the trial by jury could be
moat usefully introduced; a more extensive practice
of viva yore evidence, and other matters ; and that
such Commissicners, against a given time, should re-
port the result of their inquiries, so as that the whole
might be laid before Parliament: By these .provi-
sions, their Lordships would "sec "that a contingent
and progressive improvement in 4E7 partictilar an-
eluded in the former measure, contended for as-re-
quisite, was contemplated and Provided for in the
present Bill. His Lordship wished the Bill shbuld
be committed before the holidays ; and after the re-
cess, on a convenient day, he should move its reconi-
mitrnent. The Noble and Learned Lord concluded
by moving, " That this Bill be now read a second
time."

Lord Viscount MELVILLE said, he thought it.'
unnecessary to deliver his sentiments upon this im-
portant measure before it went into a Committee. If
there was any temptation, however, for him to speak,'
it was merely to compliment the Noble Baron oppo!
site, for the great candour with which he had treated
the measure on the present occasion. That _ Noble
Lord had modestly confessed, that he might perhaps
be biassed by some prejudices. He hoped the same
credit would be allowed to himself: if he laboured
under other prejudices, and other impressions, than
those of the Noble Baron, they were honest prepos-
sessions and honourable prejudices. He was sensible
that the lawyers of England might have their preju-
dices also, and perhaps in the course of the debate
in the Committee, he would find himself contesting
points with men not only of the highest legal charac-
ter, but who also might labour under honest preju-
dices in their turn. He thought the measure of such
importance, that it ought to be deliberated upon with
that slowness and circumspection which are the true
characteristics of wisdom. -His Lordship then read
the opinion of Lord Mansfield respecting a change
in the_ judicial system of Scotland. If he found
doubt as to the propriety of the measure, coming
from su ;h high authority, there was certainly addi-
tional reasons for treating the subject with caution
and circumspection. His Lordship concluded, by
intimating it to be his intention to deliver his senti-
ments at full length hi the Committee.
Lord LAUDERDALE thought that the form-
ing the Judges into three Courts would be better
than that of two • and as they were to have met on
alternate days, the same Counsel could have pleaded
in all these Courts. But by the method proposed
by the Noble Lord of the two Courts sitting on the
same day, the business of the Counsel would be
very much impeded ; and as one Court would per-
haps not give sufficient employment to him, as one of
the great Courts gave to Counsel here, it would hence
become a very serious injury. Besides, it was of ad-
vantage for the Judges to have these alternate days, as
it gave them more time to peruse thepapers by. which
the most of the business of the Court of Session was.
effected. He denied the assertion °Nile Noble Lord;
that the great bulk of the appeals from Scotlaiul weft I
made for the purpose of delay, as he hid &served
in looking over the decisions of their Liirdships;that
out of fifty-four appeals, twenty-seven bad been m-
versed. . •
The Bill was then read a second time •pa Pingo. ,
and ordered to be committed on Tuesday next:.
• COTTON AND WOOL BILL.
On the order of the day being read :for the third readtfig of the
Cotton Bill, Earl -Bathurst spoke at lerigth in support of-the Bill
Lord St. John opposed the Bill. Lord Itedesdale and Lord finwkes-
bury argued in defence of the.measure. Lords Grenville, Lau-
derdale Darnley and Auckland, opposed the. Bill, on commer-
cial aniconstitutional principles.
The question was then called for, and the House divided on the
third reading of the Bill. The numbets were,
' Contents,,44--Non-Contents, 18—Majority. 31.
The Bill. was then read a third time after which Lord Litu-
as %DALE proposed an amendment, which was negatived.
The other orders.of the day wempostponed, and the House
aljduried at Hag-is:lt Twelve o'Clock until this daT.

- • •HOUSE OF COMMONS.
The SPEAKER acquainted the House tkat he bad received a
lesteeffrom Admiral Stirling, conunending the squadron off Monte
ViWeo, in answer tp the thanks voted by the House nn the 1; ti
of April, 2607, to himself, and Officers, seamen, and marines, for
she valeliir displiyedin the capture of that place. • '
• Lt PERCY, Obairrnan of the Weiford Elecek,n
reported, that...the caumhtee were prevented from proceeding
thii day by the absence of one of their Members, Mr. Baca-
rut, occasioned by an illness which: rendered his attendance
dangerous to hii.tie. *Mr. litcxrceto era/ accordingly excused
from further atteadinee..3": • .•

•
On the questien being put,
Lord GRENVILLE sac, and entered into a


Lordsiips 11191110-
Writ was griedit
Hem. WiMani
SESit
hr
mot want to be'

brief, but perspicuous
leading points thro
Lord. This great
sure before their
Court of Session in
three Chambers or
he had the honour _
'was universally admitted,
come necessary in
titration of Justice SCOTLAND obtained Jame
preservation of the public records
Lordships, his proposi‘. part s_ inked Kingdom.
Sessions into three, preferably to any oilier number of Mr. N. VWNSITTART gave notice of a motion on Tuesday,
divisions, was the result of much laborious inquiry I for the produedon of Papers respecting the Trade and Nevi..
and mature reflection upon his part. The suggestion gallon of die Kingdom.
Mr. BANKES gave notice of a motion for Monday, as we un-
was entirely his own. He still remained firm in the I
derstood, respecting the increase and diminution of the. Civil List
conviction of its superior advantages ; nor did any Revenue.
thing the Noble and Learned Lord had thrown out,
shake that conviction in his mind. Much was said of
the long habitudes of the people of Scotland in these
respects, their accustomed usage, and their consequent
attachment to the present form of their Courts of
I trastra" . .
Law, and the modes of proceeding therein. For his
Printing Journals of th.. w
part, lie believed their fellow-subjects in that part of
the United Kingdom, universally felt the necessity of
some important change in the amelioration of these
things. Nor did he believe they were so much at-
tached tached to the Reesent form and constitution of their
Courts, as to be adverse to any change which would
induce an effectual and decisive improvement therein.
He differed materially from the Noble and Learned
Lord as to what he had said respecting the impracti-
cability, or the injurious tendency, of the introduction
of the Trial by Jury into the Scots Law. The autho-
rity of Lord Mansfield was referred to by the Noble
and Learned Lord. However he might respect that
Judge as a great law character, he was far from think-
ing him infallible ; from his authority in the present
case ke widely differed. He disapproved of the Bill
as a measure in itself ; first, on account of the di-
vision of the Court of Session as proposed by it; and
secondly, because it did little or nothing beyond pro-
posing that division. It did not go far enough. Aa
to the proposed Commission of Enquiry, upon which
the Noble Lord laid such a favourable stress, he also'
differed from him. He entertained no such favour-
able hopes as to the result of such enquiries. He
thought, for obtaining the necessary, and at the same
time speedy information, their Lordships must be in-
debted to their own time and labours, or to those of
their Committees ; the process of external enquiry
would besides tend to retard and delay the completion
of the necessary consequent measures; and he trusted,
that should the House ultimately adopt that expe-
dient, a specific time would be insisted on for the de-
livery of their Report. Notwithstanding he felt those
objections most forcibly, he confessed, that upon the
whole he should prefer the passing such a Bill as the
present, to leaving the grievances complained of with-
out any remedy whatever, and on that ground he
should not object to the Bill's going to a Committee
in the House, that it may receive some salutary and
efficacious ameedments.

SUPPLY.
The Housithaving resolved itself Into a Committee of Supply,
Mr. HUSKISSON moved the following Greats:—
Maintenance of Convicts ... ... ... 445,000
Stationary and Printing for both Houses of Parliament 51,500
Stationary Record Office ... ... ... 2,500
Printing Journals of the House of Lords ... 21,000
Towards defraying the Expence of an Estimate for the
better preservation of Public Records ..., ..: 4,459
Pay and Cloathing of the Militia ... (Same as last year)
Allowances to Adjutant and Subaltern .
Officers of Militia disembodied ... ... (Ditto)
Mr. HUSKISSON then moved for a further sum of 30,0001.
towards carrying en the building of the. Royal Naval Asylum at
Greenwich, and said, that he should have oecasioa "to'move for
a further sum, for the salaries and allowances of Dacus, and

maintenance of the children.
Sir CHARLES POLE objected to the grant of so, jage s suns
for an establishment, the management of which be -said was
every thing it ought not to be; and the Officers of which were
not of i proper description, as he should spew en Monday nest.
He thought that before any further grant shiiAild be made
account should be delivered of the application already Made of
the former grant. He had reason to believe there was ghat im-
providence in the expenditure.
Mr. HUSKISSON said, that he should certainly be for the
production of such an account ; and also of * estimate of the
future expense. But, in the mean while. he thought the build-
ing should not be suspended till the enquiry sbnuM he complete.
The building was already far advanced; and by its suspension, a
considerable expense would be incurred under *• caatract fee*

building.
Mr. WHITBREAD thought the enormous expences to which
the country was put by the building of Darraeks was a sufficient.
warning against voting sums for any public building without a
specific estimate.
Sir CHARLES POLE said, that an additional reason for in- ,
sluing on the production of an estimate and acceiants-tif expend-. ,
tore in this cue was, that a great part of the sums formerly grant:
ed for this institution was squandered in preparing reddened for,
and giving extravagant salaries to unnecessary Officers.: For in-
stance, a large sum was devoted to *converting apart of the build-
ing destined Jar an infirmary into a commodities residence for. a
Reverend Doctor Clark, to which were added furniture, a gar-
den and paddock of about two acres, and onVollete, and allow-
ances of coals and candles, and a .slaty of SOIL s year as auditor:
an office surely which did not require igebe maintained at such an
expellee, merely for examining the accounts of maidenapee,for.
60 boys and 40 girls, for that was the wick of his official duty.
There was not a parish in London whereof the Vistty Clerk had
not three times more badness to transact; and any clerk from the
yards of Deptford or Woolwich could do the whole of this Gen-
tleman's business in less than a month, at less than a twentieth
of the expence. Dr. Clark might be a very worthy Clergyman,
but he could not see the justice of burthening the establishment
with unnecessary and extravagant expences merely to create erne-
lument for him.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought, from
what had been said by the Hon. Baronet, that estimates and ac-
manta ought to be produced; but he did not deem 30,q001. an
extravagant demand for carrying on a building of that magnitude.
However he was so convinced of the necessity of the estimate and ,
account, that lithe Hon. Baronet did not bring forward a motion
for them, be himself should do it.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT thought 50001 suffieknt, pending the
proposed enquiry, in order that the House might be convinced the
former grants had been fairly expended.
Mr. HUSKISSON acceded to this sum; bat added, that if even'
the whole had been voted, it would net have been issued from the
Treasury without due enquiry. With respect to the Officers, and
thelisalarics, he was not comretent to say whether or not those
salaries were too large ; but the Honourable Baronet would fruit-
lect they were appointed by the Commissioners for conducting the
Institution.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT also urged the necessity of having the
estimate.
After a few words from Sir CHARLES POLE, in which he
said the expenditure of the last year was considerably increased by
the preparation of the House for the Auditor, the sum of 30001
was agreed to.

nova sandid discussion - ' A , new the Lords
o by the Noble ano' '• ' . 6,, ..-• • • Bark
• . of Mr. R. D
L•t prominent feature oftitet, "4.-q." ,- b, the et As'tgoi.
roons
Lordships was, the divisic. " ''"", ‘•-•461 ~ • the Chiltern
in Scotland into two, instead of ' ''': ,Ms ALMER gave machos, a
oritivisions, as proposed in thelliL • to mave for a Coalvttliht
tr to submit to their Lordships. ..Irsdlimzabi• Palmer, *fo,B"l",„a...".'"'"'"'""" . ••
Ldmitted, that some change had be. c Clailiestall yes seiverted,
a the preset system of the Admini- engrossed. - •
ein Scotland. He could assure their 1 The 'LORD APIrOCATE of SCOTLAN
roposition for dividing the Court of to bring in a Bill for
the better preservation of
1_ _ , _
_r i a that RarLofthe United Kingdom.
-• .- _