The Sun.
London, England, 1845-06-18 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY MORNING. JUNE 18, 1845.

GROUP X.

CADIVM,InGT. ,a-ND MrITCOLN ZLI.ZZA.VAW,

The Committeee sat at twelve o'clock.

Mr. Hawlies, of Spalding, merchant, examined—The chief im-
ports of that town were timber, oats, bricks, tiles, stone, linseed-
cake, linseed, barley, grocery, drapery, and sundry goods. Here
the witness handed in tables, showing the extent of the traffic in
those articles in Spalding for the year ending January, 1545.
The goods were conveyed by the Welland navigation from Stam-
ford to Spalding. Has no doubt that the general trade of the town
would be very much increased if the Cambridge and Lincoln line of
railway should be made.

Cross-examined—ls not aware that a petition was forwarded in
favour of the London and Yost: line from Spalding, and also one-
in favour of the Cambridge and Lincoln.
Mr. William Mutter, land-agent to Sir Thomas Witchcroft—
Has the management of 12,000 acres of Sir Thomas's property,
which is situate near Sleafurd; is of opinion that the Cambridge
and Lincoln line would afford a great many facilities of intercourse
with that extensive district.

Mr. Kemp and Mr. Hobson, both of Spalding, were next called,
and deposed to facts similar to those elicited in the examination of
Mr. Hawkes.

Mr. Parker, ironmonger, of Spalding, also corroborated the evi-
dence of Mr. Ilawkes, and that of the non-dealers who had been
examined before him.

Cross.examined—Goods coming from Sheffield to Spalding, by
Stamford, would cross the Cambridge and Lincoln line.
Mr. John Beale, of Cioal, dealer in wool and seeds, and all sorts
of agricultural produce, believes that the London and York line
would not be so advantageous to that district as the Cambridge and
Lincoln line.

When this witness's cross.examination concluded, the Committee
adjourned.

GROUP Z.
THZ DUBMEN AND GALWAY.

This Committee met at the usual hour; the Hon. R. Clive in
:he chair.°

The first witness examined was Sir John Burgoyne, who ap-
peared on the part of the Grand Canal Company. He had reported in
the year I 838, as one of the Commissioners, against a line to Galway,
partly on the insufficiency of the traffic also, as it would interfere
with the interests of the Grand Canal. He admitted that a line of
railway to Galway was desirable, but a better line than the present
might be selected.

Cross• examined by Mr. DAVID LEAHY—He was of opinion
that a conveyance from Athlone, by the Shannon, to the south of
Ireland, would be more desirable than by a railway branch from
Portarlington.

Examined by Mr. WARD, N.P.—A line of railway to Galway
must unquestionably interfere with the Grand Canal. He would
recommend a combination of interests of the canal with the rail_
way, which would be advantageous to both. The tolls
of both would be lowered, and the public would be
benefited. A line more to the south by Parsonstown, or through
Roscrea, would be more preferable.

By the CHAIRMAN—Has no great knowledge of the canals or the
mismanagement which has been complained ef.
Mr. Pim, banker in Dublin, Treasurer of the Dublin and
Kingstown Railway, and the largest holder of Grand Canal Stock,
and interested in the atmospheric railway. The traffic on a line
of railway from Galway to Dublin would be greatly increased if
judiciously selected. The best line, in his opinion, would
be along the line of the Grand Canal. The interests of the public
would be far better promoted by a concentration of interests. The
Grand Canal cost upwards of two millions. There are annuities
to widows and public institutions to the amount of 28,0001. per

annum.
Mr. Rowe contended that the proprietors of the Grand Canal
were landowners, and had a rigi,t to set up another lino of railway
which would equaly benefit the public, and protect the interests of
the landholders or canal proprietors
Mr. Mußpm" denied that the canal proprietors were only techni-
cally landowners, and were nut entitled to be heard against the
present line.

The room was then cleared
The Committee, after a quarter of an hour's deliberation, came
to the following important resolution :—" That the Commit tee were
of opinion that, as canal proprietors, they could pursue the pro-
posed course by hearing evidence in support of another lire."
Mr. Pines examination was then resumed by Mr. E. JAMES, as
to the advantageous locality of the line proposed, and a line
along the canal. It was a very vicious principle for one company
to invest money in another company in their corporate character.
It was not so in their individual capacity.
By Sir JAMES DUKE—Are you not aware of one railway pur-
chasing and leasing another ? Mr. Pim—l am; but Ido not think
the principle a good one.
Cross-examined by Mr. TALBOT—There were very few divi-
dends paid out to the Canal stock. Would not deny that the in-
terests of the Grand Canal would be greatly improved by
railway. He suggested that the Cashel line should have gone
along the banks of the canal as far as Salins, about ferty miles,
and then proceed across the country to Cashel.
TALBOT—Did not the Government forgive you a large lump
of money last year?
Mr. Pim—No ; we paid the Government ten thousand pounds
last year for that which was not worth more than tenpence.
Mr. TALBOT—Did not the Government advance to the Grand
Canal 120,0001., to make branch lines ?
Mr. Pim—They did.
Mr. TALBOT—And you only repaid them 10,000/.
Mr. Pins—Just so ; but the branch lines did not pay, and the
Government put the screw upon us.—(Laughter.)
This witness was re-examined at considerable length by Mr.
E. JAMES.
Mr. Mulvaney, engineer and commissioner of drainage, was
examined by Mr. Mullein-, of the Irish bar, in corroboration of
Mr. Pim's evidence, and stated that the proposed line would cross
the traffic districts of the country, instead of passing through it,
and from his knowledge of the country, a more preferable line
could be adopted. There is no engineering difficulty in the con-
struction of a railway along the banks of the canal.
This witness was examined at great length as to which would be
the best trunk branch, at Portarlingtonor Mullingar.
The Learned COUNSEL asked the witness was not Tipperary a
finishing county?—(Laughter.) The Learned Counsel intended
to have said "flourishing."
The CHAIRMAN—A very proper description of Tipperary.—
(Continued laughter.)
The Speaker being announced to be at prayers, the Committee ad-
journed until twelve o'clock to-morrow.

IMPERIAL PA RLIAMENT.
HOUSE OF LORDS, June 17.
Their Lordships sat to.day in a Committee of Privileges. The
Peers present were the Loid Chancellor, the Earl of Shaftesbury,
Viscount Hawarden, Viscount Melville, Lord Camo3s, Lord
Castlemain, and the Earl of Devon.
TILE CRAWFORD AND LINDSAY PEERAGE
The further consideration of this claim was resumed to-day.
A considerable quantity of documentary evidence was put in, and
the further consideration of the claim was adjourned sine die.

The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Woolsack al
the usual hour.

SCOTCH BANKING.
The Earl of RIPON gave notice that, on Monday next
he should move the second reading of the Scotch Bankin,
Bill.

SANATORY REGULATIONS.

The Marquis of NORMANBY said that he had given notice
of a petition to be presented this evening on tl4'subject of
sanatory regulations, but before he proceeded to present it he
might mention a statement which had been put into his hand
connected with the same subject, and coming from a particular
body of men—the journeymen tailors of the metropolis. The
subject, he might add, had been greatly discussed in Man-
chester and Liverpool. It appeared from that statement
four-fifths of the clothes made in London were made in the
lower classes of dwelling-houses in the East-end. He (Lord
Normanby ) had himself seen in houses of that character clothes
which were evidently not intended for the classes of persons
who were likely to visit in those places, and he believed
that they were made up for some of the West-end clothiers.
If the Noble Lord opposite would allow him, he should put
put a general question to the Noble Lord as to whether
the measure promised by her Majesty's Government was likely
to be brought on in the other House. He should also wish to
ask a question with respect to places of recreation, and parti-
cularly with reference to that piece of ground near the Peni-
tentiary—a place not far removed from their Lordships--
(Laughter)—and which he supposed might be applied to this
purpose.
The Duke of BUCCLEUCH said that with respect to the
first question he believed it was the intention of his Noble
Friend in the other House (the Earl of Lincoln) to bring his
Bill forward that evening; and as regards the piece of ground
near the Penitentiary, it had been let some time
ago to Mr. Cubitt for 3001. a year, and according to the
provisions of the Act could not be diverted to another purpose.
LEEDS AND WEST RIDING RAILWAY.
A NOBLE Loan presented a petition in favour of the Leeds
and West Riding Railway Bill.
Lord STANLEY presented a petition from the General
Assembly of Canada, praying for some alteration in their com-
mercial relations with this country.
LANDLORDS AND TENANTS (IRELAND) COM-
PENSATION BILL.
Lord STANLEY postponed the second reading of the Irish
Landlords and Tenants Compensation Bill till Tuesday next.
DEATHS BY ACCIDENTS COMPENSATION BILL.
On the motion of the Earl of LYTTELTON, the Death by
Accidents Compensation Bill was read a third time and passed.
DEODANDS ABOLITION BILL.
On the motion of Lord CAMPBELL. the Deodands Aboli-
tion Bill was read a third time and passed.
Earl POWIs objected to the Bill.
Lord HATHERTON said Canal Companies were in favour
of the measure. and that it originated from a deputation of
their body, which met last year in London. The Board of
Trade were satisfied with the measure. Mr. Gladstone
had taken it into his own hands, and it passed through the
other House without any objection being raised to it.
After a few words from Lord DALHOUSIE and Lord Powis,
the Bill was read a third time and passed.
CANAL COMPANIES CARRIER'S BILL.
On the motion of Lord HATHERTON, this Bill was read a
third time and pa,s, d.
EDUCATION IN IRELAND.
The Bishop of CASHEL rose to present the petition of
which he had given notice, with respect to Education in Ire-
land. After presenting a number of petitions from several
places in Ireland, against the present system of national educa-
tion in that country, he said that there was one petition to
which he begged to call the special attention of their Lord-
ships. It was signed by 1,360 clergymen of the Established
Church in Ireland, who earnestly prayed that some por-
tion of the public funds should be given for the schools
in connexion with the Church Establishment. The
Right Rev. Prelate then referred to the changes which
had taken place from time to time in the documents which
emanated from the Board of National Education, relative to the
reading of the Scriptures, and contended that it was dangerous
for Protestant children to aatend these schools. He then read
the opinion of the late master, who had given up his situation
at the London University because the pupils would not be per-
mitted to be examined in their knowledge of the Scriptures.
This eminent man had designated this proceeding the " Anti-
Christ of utilitarian unbelief." The Rev. Mr, Woodward
had also pointed out the danger which attended Protestant
children by this mixed system of education. He could men-
tion, too, the name of a gentleman whose name bad already
been before their Lordships. He meant the Rev. Mr.
Mackesey, who, in writing from Alonksland, on the subject of
establishing a Protestant school in that place, to a neighbouring
vicar at Clonmel, said he was favourable to the national sys-
tem in so far as considering it the next best thing when it was
impossible to establish an Episcopal school. Mr. O'Connell
had lately expressed himself against a united system of edu-
cation, and, in a most extraordinary paper, put forward by the
bench of Catholic bishops, the youth of Ireland were exhorted
not to attend any of the lectures of the national schools, unlesa
they were delivered by members of the Roman Catholic
Church. The only Society which had yet established a suc-
cessful plan of mixed education was the Church Education
Society, who had founded upwards of 18,000 schools, and who
annually educated 800,000 children, 32,000 of whom be-
longed to the Roman Catholic Church.---(Hear, hear.)
He referred to a case in which the priest of a parish in Ire-
land denounced the parish school from the pulpit, on account
of the education pursued in it, and the very next day the school-
master was murdered in the streets of the town. Since the
establishment of the Educational Board ignorance had increased
instead of being diminished. From 1701 to 1831 education
increased ; but from that time to the present it had gradually
descended to zero.—( Laughter.) He referred at great length
to the report of the Census Committee to bear out these state-
ments. Through that Board, which was supported at an ex-
pense of 70,0001. a year, they were indebted for the ignorance
which prevailed in Ireland at the present moment; and, be-
sides, it had displaced, and rendered in a great measure una-
vailable, the exertions of charitable institutions founded for the
promotion of education in Ireland. As a sample of the incom-
petent persons who were appointed to conduct education 4,in
the statistical schools in Ireland, he said a man, named Trim,
who had deceived and humbugged some Protest persons as pro-
fessing their faith when it was found that he was a hypocrite—
was appointed to the mastership of one of those schools.
When incompetent persons were appointed to suchimportant
offices, how could they expect education to flourish ?—( Hear. )
He would therefore say that there was more chance of kindness
from the Roman Catholics of Tipperary than they had from
the Parliament of Great Britain.—( Hear, hear.) He con-
sidered that thorough education could never be carried out
until they acted up to the spirit of the seventeenth report of
the Commissioners who had been appointed to inquire into the
state of education in Ireland, and again established the paro-
chial schools

The Earl of ST. G H }MANS desired to make a few re-
marks on the speech of the Right Rev. Prelate who had just
sat down. From his connexion with Ireland he was enabled to
say that the proposition which had just been made to their
Lordships was one which th,y could not assent to. The Right
Rev. Prelate had found f ,ult with the construction of the
Board of National Educati, n, but he forgot that the money
which was appropriated for this education was taken from the
whole community, and not from any particular sect ; and he
(the Earl of St. Germans) considered that all parties should
be represented at that board. Great objection had also been
made in reference t.) the reading of the Scriptures. Now, he
contended that the Board of Education had used every endea-
vour to meet the wishes of all parties in reference to this
point. They neither ,nforced the reading of the Scriptures,
nor d:d they preclude their admission from the na-
tional schools of Ireland. They certainly provided that no
child, whose parents objected to his being present at any
religious instruction, should be present while such instruction
was being given, and for that purpose they appo nted particular
times for the communication of this instruction, different from
the time set apart for the ordinary literary instruction ; but
while they did so ample provision was made that all children
should have such religious instruction as accorded with the
wishes of their parents or natural guardians. It was rather
strange, too, that the Right Rev. Prelate had objected so much
to the reading of the scriptural extracts, for he found that the
Bishop of Down and Connor had, in a sermon which he
preached some time ago, denounced the reading of the Holy
Scriptures without note or comment by children in schools.
There was one circumstance which he considered ought to
have considerable weight with their Lordships. The Pres-
byterians were not less attached to the Bible than the members
of the Established Church; and it was notorious that throughout
the whole extent of Ireland the Presbyterians had supported
the present system of national education, believing, as they
did, that the free circulation of the Scriptures was amply pro-
vided for. There were 944 schools in Ireland in which the
Scriptures were read, and 1,340 schools in which the scriptural
extracts were read, but all the books which were used con-
tained a body of sound religious instruction. Time would not
permit him then to read a few extracts from them, but he
hoped to do so on a future occasion, and he
was quite sure that their Lordships would be agree-
ably surprised to see the kind of books which had
been so much denounced.--( Hear, hear.) The Right Rev.
Prelate had alluded to Mr. Woodward. His opinions, how-
ever, might be quoted as much against the Church education
system, which the Right Rev. Prelate had advocated, as
against the Board of National Education. He was opposed to
a united system of education, and he war also of opinion that if
the main body of the clergy in Ireland could speak out, they
would be found to be in favour of the national system of educa-
tion at present in Ireland. The Noble Lord here recited the
opinions of the vicar of Newry with respect to the state of edu-
cation in schools which he had visited, and which were to the
effect that the children were well informed in the Scriptures,
and were receiving a good education. He (the Earl of St.
Germans) therefore held that the fault was not in the system
of education itself, but in those who did not lend their aid to
carry it out with greater efficiency, and that the assertions of
the Right Rev. Prelate were incorrect. He considered that
the statement of the Right Rev. Prelate, that a Mr. Osborne
had refused a site for a school, was not unlike the conduct of
other landowners. He held that the extraordinary statement
that education had diminished during the last ten years was
fallacious, and must have arisen from some misstatement on the
part of the Board of Education. It Yeas absurd to say that
education had decreased, for great exertion had been made to
disseminate school books, and to extend education in Ireland.
He entreated the House to pause before they gave a consent to
the proposition of the Right Rev. Prelate, for it would hava
the effect of destroying the National Board, and would lead
to serious consequences, not only to the Protestant but to
the Roman Catholic religion.

The Marquis of NORM ANBY said he had excellent op-
portunities, during the four years he was Lord Lieutenant of
Ireland, of becoming acquainted with the course of edu-
cation pursued in the schools, and could bear testimony to
the good eflects of the National Board of Education in Ire-
land. The Noble Marquis then read a long letter of the
Rev. Mr. Mackesey, respecting his conduct in the parish of
Monksland, in which he performed clerical duties during the
temporary absence of the minister, and to his subsequent re-
buke by the Bishop of Cashel, at his visitation at Lismore, in
which he positively asserted that he was so rebuked because he
made some suggestions with respect to the schools in that parish.
He was sorry that the Right Rev. Prelate had thought proper
to allude to the circumstance again, because he believed their
Lordships had been willing to allow the matter to rest with the
explanation he had given on a former occasion, in behalf of the
Rev. Gentleman. There was no other point upon which he
wished to correct the Right Rev. Prelate. The Right Rev.
Prelate was under the impression that the schools of the 'light
Rev. Dr. Henry, of Armagh, were confined to the children of
one sect only, but the Right Rev. Prelate was never more
mist aken.

The Earl of WICKLOW thought their Lordships' time had
been too long occupied with this correspondence, considering
that the circumstance to which it related was of a trifling and
unimportant nature. But the Right Rev. Prelate had re-
peatedly explained the matter, and he hoped their Lordships
would hear no more of it. (Hear, hear.) Now, for one
word on the subject immediately under discussion. Their
Lordships would, doubtless, remember that when the national
system of education was first proposed he did not object to its
principle ; but he objected to its introduction then, lecause it
went to destroy one of the most useful and beneficial systems

of education that had ever prevailed in Europe. He meant
the Kildare-street Society, which, at the time, was rapidly
advancing in Ireland. The question was, then, what
was to be done under existing circumstances. A more inju-
dicious thing could not be done than to destroy the national
system. Theoretically it was excellent, and if it were properly
used he knew nothing that would tend more to advance the in-
terests of Ireland ; but unfortunately it as as nut so. Unfor-
tunately it was decidedly opposed on its introduction, and that
opposition had been continued down to the present time. The
result had been that the system had proved a failure, and so it
would remain, until the Government consented to accede to
the prejudices, if they would have it so, of the Church people,
and placed the schools intended for the instruction of Protestant
children under the control of the Church School Society.
While acting most judiciously, most wisely, and most politi-
cally to a great portion of the Roman Catholic people of Ire-
land, let Ministers show to those connected with the Church of
England in that country that they did not forget them. Let
them do this, and they would give universal satisfaction to the
people that were now arrayed against them, and they would at
the same time show that they were not inflamed by a strong
bias in favour of any powerful party in that country. Let them
do this and they might rely upon it the people would begin to
think that the great object they had in view was to hold the
scales of justice with an even, steady, and impartial hand.
After a few words in explanation from the Marquis of Noe-
MA NBY and the Earl of CLANCAILTY, which did not reach the
gallery,
Lord MON TEAGLE said he was rejoiced to hear the Noble
Lord, who had just addressed the House, bear important testi-
mony to the efficacy and practicability of the national system
of education. The Noble Lord's testimony was of no small
importance, because there was no one who had had better op-
portunities of observing its operation than the Noble Lord, and
no one who was more disposed to discuss the question before the
House with greater impartiality. It appeared to him (Lord
Monteagle) that the Noble Lois' had by his excellent address
completely overturned the studied and pains-taken
arguments of the Right Rev. Prelate upon the subject. That
was no small extent of religious instruction, comprising, as it
did, extracts from the Acts of the Apostles, the Gospel of
St. Luke, and all the principal passages of the Gld Testament.
He would now compare the system of the Kildare-street So-
ciety with the present system of national education, and their
Lordships would at once see that the school in connexion
with the latter Society was far superior, even in point of reli-
gious instruction, to those of the former Society. The Noble
Lord then read the opinion of Mr. Beevers, the secretary of
the former Society, to corroborate this opinion. He (Lord
Monteagle) thought, that by providing support for the Church
Education Society, they would be setting up a sort of anta-
gonism in education in Ireland, which would be attended
with the most pernicious consequences. He was sorry to see
so many as 1,700 of the Protestant Clergymen of Ireland, who
still protested against that system of education there. He knew
the difficulties which the Government had to contend with,
in opposing a request which had been made by so respectable
a body of individuals. He thought, however, that they were
tly themselves to blame in contributing to induce the belief,
on the part of those persons, that on their accession to power
they would either abandon the best system of education in Ire-
land or allot a portion of the public funds for the support of
schools in connexion with the Church Education Society.
The working. however, of the system was the best refutation
which could be given to those who were opposed to it.
The Earl of CLANCARTY said that as he had presented a
number of petitions in favour of the Church Education Society,
he was desirous of giving his support to the proposition which
had been introduced by the Right Rev. Prelate. Much had
been said derogatory to those clergymen who had opposed the
present system of education. but no one could question the
sincere feelings by which they were influenced. The Noble
Lord then proceeded to quote the opinions of Sir R. Peel, as
expressed by him, in 1839. against the present system of na-
tional education. Had not then (continued the -Noble Lord)
the clergy of the Established Church good ground to hope that
on the accession of the Right Hon. Baronet some change would
be made in that system ? Sir Robert Peel, however, was not
alone in the expression of such an opinion. The Right Hon.
Baronet the Secretary for the Home Department had also, in
a speech made about the same time, given utterance to a similar
disapprobation of the present national system of education in
Ireland. In conclusion he hoped the Government would con-
sider what was their duty to the established religion of the
country.
The Archbishop of DUBLIN said he would not enter at
length into the subject,,but would state some of the results of
his experience, which might have the effect of dissipating some
of the misapprehensions which prevailed on the subject. He
had held his office as one of the Commissioners of the National
Board of Education under seven Lords Lieutenants and six
Secretaries for Ireland, and during the whole of that period he
had always considered it his duty to serve the Government for
the time being to the best of his ability, so long as it did not
compromise his conscience, and he had always considered it the
duty of those who held offices like the one he held to keep
aloof from all political parties.—(Cries of " Hear, hear ")
When the present Government came into power he
applied to them to state their intentions with respect
to education in Ireland, and their not declaring their
intentions for some time he considered one of the causes of
apathy on the part of Protestants with regard to education
in Ireland. It was proposed that an additional grant should
be made to the Church Education Society. Let them con-
sider what would be the immediate results of such a step as
that. Its adoption would lead to the secession from the Board
of its Protestant, and of the most influential of its Roman
Catholic members, and two rival systems of education would
be established in Ireland. He denied that the system of united
education had failed. If that anode of education did not
exist, many large districts in Ireland would not have the
benefits of education afforded to them at all. To support two
systems of education out of the funds of the State, would be
an Irish system of Government. It was totally on that founda-
tion that the Scriptures were excluded from these schools. The
supposition arose from scholars not being forced to read the
Scripture, that no child was compelled to read them if contrary
to his parent's wishes ; but to say that the Scriptures were not
read was untrue, as Scriptural lessons, carefully prepared, were
used in all the schools. Anything that they had heard with
respect to Dr. Arnott's wishing to force the scholars to read
the Scriptures was untrue, as he was of opinion that the read-
ing of them by children should be optional on the part of their
parents. He could assure their Lordships that no changes had
taken place in the system or principles of education adopted,
except in the rules for the guidance of the teachers, which had
been improved from time to time, as the necessity arose, for
the purpose of carrying it out with greater effect. It had been
said that they paid little or no attention to the business of the
Board, and that they signed papers and documents without
knowing anything at all of their contents. Now there could
not be anything more at variance with the truth. Not a meeting
of the Board took place without himself and the Provost of
Trinity College being in attendance, and often they were en-
gaged in corresponding for days with various parts of the
country on the business of the Board. But this report was
only one of the many unfounded statements relating to the
Board, which had, unfortunately, tended to abuse the public
mind of England and Scotland on the subject of the national
schools of Ireland. Let the system have a fair trial, and their
Lordships might depend upon its one day resulting in the re-
demption of the Irish people.
Lord STANLEY saia the Right Rev. Prelate who had
just sat down had so completely answered the objections
raised to this system by the Noble Lord who preceded him,
that he should have felt it wholly unnecessary on the part of
the Government to say a word upon the subject, had it not
been for one or two remarks which had fallen from the same
Noble Earl and the Right Rev. Prelate himself. He was far
from being insensible of the great value and importance of the
services rendered by the Bight Rev. Prelate in carrying out
this system of education, because he believed the success of
that system owed a great deal to the services of the Right
Rev. Prelate and that distinguished individual, Dr. Massey ;
and he begged to assure them, that if they had any reason
whatever to doubt that it was the intention of the Government
to support and maintain the existing system of educa-
tion in Ireland, they were mistaken. But he was
sure neither the Right Reverend Gentleman nor the Rev. Dr.
Murray had any such apprehension, and it was not for him to
say anything to clear the doubts of others, seeing that as he
had the honour in the first instance to bring the system before
Parliament, and had ever since given it his most unqualified
support, it would be inconsistent and unworthy of him to re-
main in a Government which had the slightest intention of
abandoning that system. He admitted that doubts had arisen
on the subject, and no doubt to that it was attributable that
Government had hesitated to accede to an application
made to them by a large and influential body
of the Irish clergy to extend the working of the system. But
Noble Lords must remember that Government had felt it to be
their duty to inquire whether it was practicable to extend the
system, as well as to ascertain whether there was any founda-
tion for certain alleged existing abuses in the working of the
system. They did examine into the working of the system—
they did examine fully into the progress that had been made in
the national schools—they did examine, moreover, most
anxiously whether it was possible to increase the grant—and
having come to the conclusion that the system was administered
with fairness, that its influence was extending day by day,
that the numbers educated in the schools were equally in-
creasing, anti that the quality of the education was improving,
they felt that they were justified in proposing, and they had
since proposed, not a continuance only of the previous system,
but a large and liberal increase in the amount of the grant.
Having come to that conclusion, they had increased the grant;
and if there was any doubt as to the fixeddetermination, on
the part of the Government, to maintain and extend the
system of national
education in Ireland, he could state
that he had lately seen a letter from the Prime Minister to the
Lord Primate of Ireland, wherein it was distinctly stated that
there was no such intention un the part of the Government. A
Noble Earl who spoke late in the debate had stated that there
was no hope of an alteration taking plide amongst the Protes-
tants of Ireland on this subject, because it involved a question
of Protestant principle. Now, if he thought this system ,
in-
volved a question of principle, not only would he abandon the
ppreh
withens io
time,n he had still and in the hope that
system, but he would become one of its strongest opponents.
No, it was because he thought the fears of the Protestants of
this lrelandapprehension
were
would bn founded in
erased
deter-
mined to give the system his best and most hearty support.
The Duke of WELLINGTON confessed that at one period
of his life he was averse to all systems of mixed education, but
his opinion was changed while he sat on the other side of the
House, and ever sinee that time he had strenuously supported
all the motions that had been made for the augmentation of the
grant, and had always endeavoured to induce those with whom
he had any influence to countenance the system of national
education in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) He always carried
into execution every measure, when once it passed into
a law, whatever might be its consequences as a legal enact-
anent. Now he applied that maxim to these clergymen, who
come forward to the number of 1,700, to call for an appropria-
tion of the public funds to the Church Education Society. The
national education had obtained the support of the Govern-
ment, the Queen, and the Legislature, and he thought that
however they might continue to denounce the system at Exe-
ter-hall and elsewhere, with their voices, their votes, their
speeches, and their writings, they should, when they went
home to their own parishes, carry into effect, like good sub•
jects, a measure which had obtained the sanction of the highest
legal authority in the land.—( Hear, hear.)
Lord DACRE moved that the order of the day for the second
reading of the game-laws be discharged, and that it be brought
on again on Monday, the 27th inst.
Their Lordships then adjourned.

The Glasgow, Garnkirk, and Coatbridge Railway Bill was
read a third time and passed.
The Great Soutbei n and Western Railway Bill (Ireland)
was reported, and the Bill was ordered to be referred to the
Committee on Standing Orders.
The North British Insurance Company Bill was read a
third time and passed.
LONDON AND SOUTH-WESTERN RAILWAYS.
Tho reports of the London and South-Western Railways,
Nos. I and 2, were brought up and received.
CORNWALL RAILWAY.
The report of this Bill was brought up. On the motion
that it be received,
Captain BERKELEY opposed the motion. He was against
this railway on several grounds. Falmouth was the first port which
ships reached in coming from the westward, arid it was neces-
sary that there should be telegraphic communication between
that harbour and London. For such a purpose a railway was
much required. But, according to the route which
it was proposed to take, the present railway having
to cross two rivers, it would be impossible to
preserve at all times the telegraphic communication
entire. This was a serious objection. The line crossed five
navigable rivers, over three of which swivel bridges were to be
erected. When it was high water they would require to be
open; when it was low water they would have to be shut; so
that great inconvenience would arise in the traffic of the railway.
All these objections might be avoided by their taking up the
Central Cornwall line. It was true the Board of Trade had
reported against that line, but that was no just reason
why they should not take the subject into their considera-
tion. The central line would save a distance of sixty miles
between Falmouth and London ; it would also save the
time which would now be required to cross the Hamoaze by
the floating bridge, which would be at least twenty minutes.
The Central Railway crossed above the Hamoaze. The pro-
moters of the present Bill talked about making docks at Fal-
mouth. Why they had no power to make docks, neither had
they any money to do so, and they were deceiving the House.
Most of the engineers who had been examined said that it was
not only a roundabout, but a dangerous line, and the railroad,
instead of being a quick communication between Fal-
mouth and London, would be a very slow one. Under
these circumstances be would not detain the House longer,
but would at once move that the report be brought up that
day six months.
Mr. MACAULAY hoped that, as chairman of the Com-
mittee, he might be permitted to say a few words. If the
House did not place confidence in the Committee, or if they
thought that no prima facie case had been made out, then they
ought to move that the evidence taken before the Committee be
printed.—( Hear, hear.) But he hoped that upon the strength
of a series of assertions by an individual Member
the House would not overturn the deliberate and
unanimous decision of a Committee. It was said
that the majority of the engineers examined before
the Committee had stated the line to be dangerous, and that
had been stated by a gentleman who had not heard a syllable of
the evidence. Now, speaking from his recollection of the
evidence, he should be inclined to say that such was
not the case, and he considered it rather too much
for a gentleman to get up and read a printed paper,
put forth by the opponents of the Bill, in opposition to the
report of the Committee, which had carefully examined the
subject for twenty days—( Cheers)—and who certainly had not
shown themselves the mere tools of the Great Western Com-
pany. Four schemes bad been propounded by the Great
Western Company before that Committee. Of those schemes the
Committee .had reported in favour of one and rejected an-
other, and had postponed the other two.—( Hear.)
The Committee considered that there were consi-
derable objections to the gradients of the proposed line,
particularly if it were to be worked by locomotive power.
But they thought that the county of Cornwall ought not to be
without a railway ; that It was of the utmost importance to
secure a railway communication between Plymouth and
Falmouth, and that, in fact, this was not a mere
Cornish, but a British question.—(" Hear," and cheers. )
If they rejected this line, what line could they take?
The plan was brought before the Board of Trade, and re-
ported against by that Board. They examined the
difference between the competing lines—they called upoa
the promoters of the Central Cornish line, but they
did not appear. Why did they not appear? Why did not the
promoters, he repeated, come forward ? He had seen a defence

in print, which certainly was the worst defence he had ever
met with. They said they did not come forward because of the
extreme scarcity of money. Upon this ground they alleged they
could not go on with the undertaking. If they could not
find capital in May, 1845, when were they to find it ?
( Hear, hear.) The fact was, the Committee went much
further into the merits of the proposed lines than
was their duty. And as regarded the engineering evidence,
the great mass of it went to say that the line selected was the
best practical line. If the House thought this a case for their
interference, they might have the evidence read over; but he
trusted tkey would not accede to the motion of the Gallant
Officer.
Lord G. SOMERSET said he thought the decision of the
Committee was every way entitled to deference. He thought
that by acceding to the motion of the Hon. Gentleman the
House would form a very dangerous precedent, and would there-
fore:oppose it.
Mr. PENDARVES thought, that notwithstanding
the engineering difficulties, a proper line of railway
might be carried through Cornwall. He believed there
would be sufficient traffic to support a railway. The
point of securing an advantageous communication between
London and Exeter in time of war would be highly important.
He felt perfectly satisfied that the line, as described in the
plan, never could be properly carried out. Both the Admiralty
and the Board of Ordnance were opposed to the line, and the
authority of these bodies constituted a strong objection. Let
them seek their own line if they please, but at the same
time let other parties have the opportunity of proving the ad-
vantages of another line. He felt persuaded that if the Com-
mittee had had a sufficient opportunity of hearing the evi-
dence on the line which had been shut out, they would have
come to a different decision on the subject.
Sir CHARLES LEMON observed that it had been stated
that a line might be projected which would reduce the distance
between London and Exeter to 60 miles less than the proposed
line. His Hon. Friend came forward as a septuagenarian, and
said that the distance might be diminished by seventy
miles. The line at present before the House was supported
by all the landowners in its vicinity, every one of whom were
shareholders in it, and further his Hon. Friend was the first
person who moved the adoption of the line which he now op-
posed.
Mr. PENDARVES explained, and admitted he had ori-
ginally supported the line, but had subsequently seen St to alter
his opinion.
Mr. RASHLEIGH said that, as one of the representatives
of the other division of the county (Cornwall), he would say it
was the unanimous opinion of the people whom he represented
that the railway before the House would be conducive to
the interests of the country at large. He would not enter
into details on the subject, although, if it were wished, he
would go into a description of the entire line. It passed
through one of the finest and most fertile districts in the
county, and it was the general desire of all the influential per-
sons and landowners that the line should be adopted.
Mr. TURNER said that he had been originally a member
of the Provisional Committee upon the opposing line, but as
that scheme was not properly carried forward, it was suffered
to fall to the ground, although he himself had subscribed
one-fourth of the expenses. He was understood to say he
would support the motion.
After a few words from Captain PLUMRIDGE,
Sir S. SPRY said he would withdraw the clause which he
had proposed.
The motion that the Bill be reported that day six months
was then put, and negatived without a division.
The report was then received, and the Bill was ordered to be
engrossed.

DUDDESTON AND NECHELS IMPROVEMENT
BILL.
Mr. SPOONER moved that the time for receiving the
report from the Committee on the Duddeston and Nechels
Improvement Bill be adjourned until Monday, the 30th inst.—
Agreed to.
NEWPORT AND PONTYPOOL RAILWAY BILL.
Lord SANDON moved the adoption of the report of the
Committee on the Newport and Pontypool Railway Bill, which
was agreed to.
MANCHESTER AND LEEDS RAILWAY BILL.
Mr. PRINGLE moved the adoption of the report of the
Committee on the Manchester and Leeds Railway.
FACTORIES BILL.
Mr. AGLIONBY presented petitions from the Messrs.
Shaw, of Yorkshire, and other m►ll-owners, praying for the
adoption of the Ten Hours' Bill.
Captain LAIRD presented petitions from Stockton, Bury,
and Ashton-under-Lyne, praying for the adoption of the Ten
Hours' Bill.
Mr. T. DUN COMBE presented a petition from Hudders-
field in favour of the Ten Hours' Factory Bill.
SCOTCH POOR-LAW BILL.
The HoN. MEMBER. also presented petitions from places in
Somersetshire praying for the insertion in the Scotch Poor-
law Amendment Bill of a clause for the relief of the able-
bodied poor.

NEW ZEALAND.
Captain ROUS gave notice, that he would withdraw the
addition of which he had given notice on the motion of the
Hon. Member for Liskeard, and that he would move an amend-
ment instead, to the effect that the proceedings of the New
Zealand Company were a violation of thr '?ht. thr

le Crown.

-Y _..e rights of ti
PLAY-GROUND AT MILLBANK.
Lord R. GROSVENOR said that he wished to ask a
question of the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the
Home Department respecting the ground which had been
lying waste for a number of years near Millbank Penitentiary.
When he left London last year he had understood that this
piece of ground, which consisted of about five or six acres, in con-
formity with sanatory regulations recommended in the report of
the Health of Towns Commissioners, should be left unbuilt upon
for the recreation of the inhabitants. The banks at that spot
were washed by the tidal water, which had always been
considered greatly contributive to health. But he was
surprised at being subsequently informed that the Noble
Lord at the head of the Woods and Forests, and
the Secretary for the Home Department, had decided on
letting the land on building leases. The whole loss would be
not more than 1,0001. in the first instance, and about 300/.
a year afterwards. He wished to know whether it was still
determined to withhold this advantage from the inhabitants of
that populous neighbourhood?
Lord LINCOLN said that the circumstances were these :
the land consisted of sixteen acres, and was let on lease about
five or six years ago. All this ground was let on build-
ing leases, and was now covered with buildings, '
except about five acres, constituting the open
space alluded to by his Noble Friend. With respect
to these five acres, when it was proposed to build upon them,
the inspectors of prisons expressed an apprehension that such
a proceeding would be injurious to the health of the
prisoners. But when the plan supported by his Noble Friend
for improving the space for public recreation, and not for
building, was submitted to the inspectors, they withdrew their
objection, upon which, in fact, the answer of his Right Hon.
Friend ( Sir J. Graham) had been grounded. Subsequently
he ( Lord Lincoln) consulted Mr. Cubitt as to the value of
the property, and the cost of improving it as pro-
posed. The estimate of the eminent engineer was, that
the expense would be about 2,000/., with the sacrifice of
a rent of 100/. a year. In the first place, then, he must say
that he did not think the locality had so much claim upon the
Government for such an expenditure as other neighbourhoods in
the metropolis, and, besides, the expense could not be incurred
by the Woods and Forests without nit Act of Parliament.
Sir T. D. ACL AND gave notice that when in Committee
on the Irish College Bill he should move the insertion of a
clause, requiring an assurance from both Catholic ann Pro-
testant professors, that a portion of the New Testament should
be daily read by the stuNEWdentsZEA.—( HLANDear. )
.

Mr. CHARLES BULLER said that if he had only to
claim the attention of the House to the complaints on the part
of the New Zealand Company, in such a case he would rely on
the justice and fair dealing of the Gentlemen he addressed to
preserve the rights of private property ; but that case was en-
tirely merged in a far greater case of public mismanagement.
The petition of the merchants of London and of the New Zea-
land Company, which he had the honour of presenting, com-
plained that a useful enterprise, wisely and usefully devised for
the benefit of the people of this country, had been marred by
the interference of the Government. After a successful
commencement, that colony, which, from its position and re-
sources, and the energy brought to their development, was
rapidly and steadily improving, was now in a stagnant and
perishing state, and a great body of emigrants—industrious
men—had all been cruelly treated. He waved all the advan-
tages that he could derive from the complaint that the Govern-

ment had been guilty of a breach of contract.. His complaint
was that a wise system of colonisation had been frustrated by a
feeble and petty jealousy. He knew no lesson so instructive on
the subject of colonisation as that which Nev Zealand fur-
nished. If he could prove to the House that the New Zealand
Company had followed that line of poli, y most conducive to
the interests of the people of this country, and on the soundest
principles, then he would ask the House to enforce the agree-
ment which the Government had entered into with the Company.
It the House would agree with him in the soundness of those
principles, which every sensible man outside the Colonial-
office must, he thought, concur in, he thought he would have
no difficulty whatever in snaking out a complete case. If the
Howe held the opinion entertained by commercial men and
the great mercantile community of this country—if they
thought that it was beneficial to cut out new employment for
the shipping, the trading, and the manufacturing population—
in fact, to extend the British name to the farthest ends of the
earth—to extend her arts, her language, and her civilisatimi.
He said that this was the great end which the New Zealand
Company had in view—an end which was worthy of the policy
of a great country—worthy of the consideration of a wise and
patriotic Uovernment—a Government overlooking, excusing,
and repairing the many errors which might arise, with cor-
diality and with benevolence. He believed, than, this there
never was a fairer field for British industry. He believed that
they never had opened to them a fairer prospect than the island
of New Zealand. With the one disadvantage of a long steam-
voyage, it opened up the fairest field for the capital of this
country. The extent of the island of New Zealand was nearly
as great as that of Great Britain and Ireland. He found that it
consisted of 78 millions of acres, out of which, deducting
morass land and the great chain of alpine mountains, there
were still left no less than sixty millions of acres of valuable
land for arable purposes. The island had another great ad-
vantage, in an extended line of coast of snore than three hun-
dred miles, abounding with harbours. In confirmation of
these facts, he should refer the house to the evidence of highly
credible and respectable witnesses, who had been examined
before a Committee of that House during the last year, and he
would read an extract from a letter of Governor Fitzroy's.
dated the 16th of September, 1844. The House would find
it at page 141 of the Parliamentary Papers, which had been
laid on the table. (The Hon. and Learned Member then
read the letter, which described the island of New Zealand as
being most valuable, and capable of the highest
cultivation; abounding in mineral wealth, with large
mines of copper, sulphur, iron, and coal.) Captain
Fitzroy stated, what had long been known, that
there were excellent mines of iron, copper, and sulphur close
to the coast—that the whales were again returning to the
coast. And here he would remind the House that the
Southern whale fishery was the only whale fishery in the
world, for the fishery in the Northern sea had almost entirely
declined. Of the political position he need not remind Lord
Stanley, for its whole aspect would be presented to his eyes.
And he (Mr. C. Buller) might say that he did not think that
any man of sense could not but see what this country would be
in the hands of any other power. The French were in posses-
sion of the Friendly Islands and the Marquesas. The United
States were in possession of the Sandwich Islands. On
one side there was the coast of America, the isthmus
of Darien, Mexico, and Oregon. On the other,
there was the whole of the Asiatic coast and the
Indian Archipelago. Under a British Government, new
Zealand was the natural arbiter of the ocean in which it was
placed. In every portion of the coast there were harbours
capable of taking the whole of the fleets of the world, and if
the government were judiciously administered, the possession of
the country would establish British empire over the Pacific
Ocean. It became necessary, then, that this fine territory
should be colonised in a regular manner, for it should be recol-
lected that it was being colonised in an irregular manner.
Sailors and sawyers, who ran away from the whalers:which came
there, had all settled on the island, and taken possession of
allotments, and it was at length seen that it was impossible that
things could go on there without British government and Bri-
tish law, and that it was necessary that some means should
be taken for carrying order into New Zealand. The first regu-
lation was introduced by the Church Missionary Society. He
would not attempt to speak with disrespect of the Church Mis-
sionary Society. He must say, however, that in the colony
of New Zealand religious zeal had been used by worldly men
for worldly ends. This afforded an instructive lesson, and one
that ought well to be considered.—( Hear, hear.) Many of
the persons to whom he had alluded, not only jobbed
in land for themselves, but they jobbed for others. Mr. Camp-
bell, the head of the Church Missionary Society, had made ap-
plication for himself and friends for land to the extent of forty
miles square. An apologist of this gentleman in a pamphlet
which had been addressed to the Hon. Member for Oxford,
(Sir R. Inglis) said that the Rev. Gentleman was justified in
making this application. Of the thirty-five persons who had
been employed by the Church Missionary Society in 1838, no
less than twenty-three had sent in claims for land,—the total
of which amounted to no less than 186,000 acres. This fact
was mentioned in the Company's petition which he had pre-
sented a short time ago. The Rev. Henry Williams, one of the
missionaries, had obtained 11,000 acres. The same apologist
to whom he (Mr. Buller) had alluded said that this Rev.
Gentleman was fully entitled to this extent of land, seeing that
he had a large family to provide for. With respect to the other
missionaries it had been said that they had made application for
the land with the secret object of restoring it to the natives.—
( Laughter.) This was a melancholy page of history, and he
would not have alluded to it if it had not been to show what
the influence of the Church Missionary Society had been.
Whatever might have been the good effect produced by the
exertions of the missionaries in New Zealand, there could be
no doubt but that the first intercourse of the New Zealanders
with Europeans had been attended with fatal results. In the
year 1825, a chief, named Hogae, who had been educated in
England by the Church Missionary Society, returned to New
Zealand, bringing with him a cargo of fire-arms. He used
those fire-arms against the other native tribes. He aimed at
conquest—dreadful conflicts ensued—the other tribes got par-
tial possession of firearms, and were instructed in the use of
them—a war of extermination was the consequence. The
middle island was utterly depopulated, and the northern island
suffered greatly. Every traveller who had visited New Zealand
since had spoken of the disastrous depopulation which had been
the consequence of those wars. Another instance was that of
a most remarkable character, of whom they had lately heard a
great deal in connexion with the massacre of Wairou—he
meant Raphinera. He was a chief of the Southern Island.
He had made war against a rival chief—had defeated and
taken him prisoner—had hung him up by his chin to a hook—
had tortured him—and the next day the chief's wife was seen
with his entrails hanging about her neck ; and this Rapin.
raua was the chieftain who was the object of the especial
patronage and regard of Governor Fitzroy.—(Cheers.)
Other serious evils had also resulted from their connexion
with Europeans. It was said that the New Zealanders were
not as yet much addicted to the use of ardent spirits, but it
should be remembered, that some time always elapsed before
the wild man became thoroughly imbued with a taste for ar-
dent spirits, and as the New Zealanders had already began to
acquire that taste, he was greatly afraid, that unless some
great moral effort was made to raise their character, they
would suffer as much from the use of ardent spirits as the North
Americans had done. But the introduction of more innocent
commodities had been productive of almost equally fatal results.
Nothing had been more fatal than the substitution of the
blanket for the native mat. It had given rise to the most de-
populating conflicts. It was quite clear that up to the first
attempt at regular colonisation the depopulation of the country
had been going on rapidly. Many districts which had been
formerly well peopled were at the present moment absolutely
uninhabited. It was proved upon the authority of a gentle-
man ( whose name we did not hear) who was well acquainted
with the whole region, that in 1837 the depopulation of the natives
had gone on so far that they were but a remnant of the
race, which flourished within the memory of many European
residents. It became, under those circumstances, the policy
of the English to establish their authority, and to lay down
some rule of government for the colonists. But all those who
had given their attention to the subject said that the present
mode of government could not be persisted in.—( Hear.) His
esteemed friend Sir R. Inglis had referred to the statements
of Mr. Clarke as a high authority. But he (Mr. C. Buller)
could scarcely ascribe such high authority to the statements of
a gentleman who combined in his own person the occupations
of Church missionary and jobber in land.—( Hear, hear.) He
could not be persuaded upon such authority that the New
Zealanders preserved records of the regular succession of their
landed estates for 30 generations, or about 800 years. He could
not think that such was the case amongst a people, who were
clothed in mats, and fed upon fern roots, until Captain Cook
supplied them with potatoes.—( Hear, hear.) He could not
believe that they were, as Sir R. Inglis had said, in a state of
civilization equal to that of our Saxon ancestors, who
laid the foundation of our Constitution, maintained a represen-
tative system, and the trial by jury.—( Hear, hear.)
All this squeamishness, therefore, about applying the old Eng-
lish word " savage," seemed rather fastidious and absurd, when
the subject of it was the only people who sedulously, or rather
obstinately, persisted in cannibalism. A common expression
of all neighbouring tribes had been " Pork is the food of the
European and human flesh of the New Zealander."—
(Laughter.) They were inferior to the Caffres in all the arts
of government or war, and were in every respect unworthy of
comparison with that or any contiguous or contemporaneous
race. But while thus deficient. in many of the facilities which
usually were conspicious in the most barbarous aborigines, they
had qualities which rendered them peculiarly easy of civilisa-
tion. Instead of the gloomy and morose insociability which cha-
racterised the North American, they were possessed of an amenity
of disposition, and an inclination to associate with strangers,
which marked the character of the negro race. They were
easy to be accosted. Europeans readily found access to them ;
and as they had no chase, they lived on the produce of very bad
agriculture, and were interested in learning the arts of others,
and repugnance between them and Europeans consequently
subsided. It therefore was perfectly easy to amalgamate the
two races, and it was right to have conquered and subjugated
the one, because it was hopeless to civilise the other—the New
Zealander—except by establishing British rule. There were
about 100,000 inhabitants in the whole of this large country.
Stewart's Islands was totally uninhabited ; the middle island
was as large as England and Scotland together, and contained
barely 1,500 inhabitants; and there were about 10,000 people
in the southern part of the northern island. It was preposter-
ous to assert that the possession by a few inhabitants of so large
a place was to exclude the rest of mankind from going there to
cultivate the soil, and turn it to some useful account. He
knew no justification of any such principle. The land
seemed to him made for mankind generally, and it was
not for a particular race to prevent all other races
from enjoying it. The Government did not limit colonists as
to the possession of the country, and he did not see why the
New Zealanders should have more right to progress themselves
in their wanderings from valley to valley, of one valley more
than another, than the English had to make a settlement
in the country. Suppose, for instance, the population of France
were to be reduced to 20,000, which would be the number in
proportion as compared with the inhabitants of New Zealand
confined
exclusively suppose, further, that the entire population was
exclusively to Brittany and Normandy, and lived solely by
cultivating the fields in those districts, would anybody assert
that it was proper and justifiable to allow that people to devote
the remaining part of that extensive territory to eternal bar-
renness ? and that other countries would not consider it advis-
able to pour in their hordes to occupy the waste land? The
condition of New Zealand, as contrasted with this statement, '
was precisely similar. A civilised man, whenever he comes in
contact with a savage, was bound to treat him with consideration
and kindness. He was bound to guard against anything
that should allow the savage to }perceive his own degradation
by a supercilious assumption of superiority. He was also un-
der an obligation to communicate to him all that he was ac-
quainted with as regarded the civilised arts. He could not
conceive that any better proposition could be adopted
than the principles of our own laws, and of all
civilised nations. That law had never asserted the right of
depriving the Indian of his possessions. The law of other na-
tions had been that the Indian was not to be deprived of every
right. At the same time the rights of property among savages
did not assimilate to the rights of property in civilized nations,
and therefore could not be regulated by a similar law. The
principle laid down by several eminent jurists was, that you
were not to deprive the savage of the land he owned, and you
were to respect in him the universal rights of property which
he hitherto possessed. It had beers said by some writers that it
was right, in regard to savages, even to limit their appropria-
tion of the land for the purposes of the chase. This rule,
however, had not been applied to the natives of New
Zealand. They had not been interfered with in this
respect. They had not been disposssed of their
lands, but to that extent which all writers on the laws
of nations admitted to be correct in principle. That which
they were in the habit of using as hunting-grounds had not
been interfered with. The real evil connected with the colo-
nisation of New Zealand was the bringing of a strange and a
superior race in contact with the natives; and the latter could

not stand against the former unless great care was taken. The /
(the Government) were bound to protect these people
against the encroachments of the former, and to see that com-
pensation was given them, not for the land that was appro-
priated by the new settlers, but on account of the inferiority-
of their position. Was this compensation to be given to them.
in money, or was it to be given in the shape of rum, brandy,
muskets, or gunpowder? He was sure there was not a man
in that House but what would recoil from the idea of such a
compensation. He could not better express his views on this
kind of compensation than by reading a letter from the New
Zealand Company en the subject. The Hon. Member here
read extracts from the letter condemnatory of the practice of
granting compensation of this, hind, either in spirituous liquor
or fire-arms, and pointing Dut the superior provisions
which the New Zealand Company had afforded.
The Hon. Member, after reading the document, said it could
not be denied that the Company had been the best friends the
savage had ever found. It might be said that the Company
purchased land too cheap, but what was the
.fair value of land
which, in reality, had no pi me—they gave store for it than
had been given for the whole state of Pennsylvania. They
thought giving back to the savage one cultivated acre out of
ten was ample compensation—the very best kind of cOruPensa-
tion. The Colonial-office thought they discharged this'll' duty
when they enabled the savage to sell his land at a high Price.
It was very hard to preserve the savage when he came into
contact with the civilized man—it could not be done by laws or
regulations—it could only be effected by the force of sympathy's-
The laws did not arbitrarily alter the distinctions among thes
savage race, but preserved them, and when they took away from
the chief his warlike distinctions, they gave him more solid re-
wards by making him a large landholder. The savage could
be only preserved by amalgamation, and the project of the Com-
pany was a large and a sound one, which had been thwarted by
a narrow and a feeble policy. The policy of the Missionary
society, as appeared by the evidence of Mr, Dennison before
the House of Lords, was to engross the entire control over the
savage. This policy had nearly ruined New Zealand, and
had entirely rained Tahiti, and thrown it into the arms of
France. In short, nothing could be more arbitrary than the
views of those missionaries. The Government sent Mr. Busby
to New Zealand, in 1837, as the resident in that country,
and he was directed to acknowledge the i'rew Zealand flag—
they then had no flag, but a number of flags was
sent them of which the natives chose the gaudiest. /i.lr.
Busby got thirteen of these savage chiefs together, who, in a
pompous manner, declared their independence under the title
of the Congress of the United Tribes of New Zealand, and
concluded the declaration in the oddest possible manner, viz.,.
by putting themselves under the protection of the Government.
These flags, declaration, &c., were, to use the emphatic and
idiomatic language of Mr. Carlyle, nothing but lies and sham.
Nothing could be more absurd than this declaration of inde-
pendence. So far did these missionaries and this pretended
Congress push their pretensions, that France, seeing the island
so much better cared for by the British Government, was
about to claim it for herself ; and were it not for the prompt
interposition of his Noble Friend (Lord Palmerston) it would
have been sacrificed. When the Company interfered to put
an end to thost wretched manifestations, Lord Stanley defended
the conduct of the missionaries, and said that those who dif-
fered with him must resign their posts as Government officers.
The missionaries, Stack, Williams and others went about ob-
taining the signatures of the chiefs to this wretched treaty of
Waitanga. The chiefs, it was true, signed this treaty, but it was
quite plain they knew nothing whatever about whet they were
signing, and, indeed, it was quite plain they did not, for what
man, savage though he might have been, would barter away
the nationality of his country for a blanket.—( Great laughter. )
It might be supposed he was speaking jocosely, but, in truth,
the reward given to the savage chieftain for his signature
was a blanket. The missionaries poked into every hole and
corner, and by promises and rewards induced those ignorant
savages to sign a paper, of the contents of which they have
since declared they understood nothing. In some of these dip-
lomatic negotiations with savages, where the bargain was all on
one side, a piece of tobacco was thrown in ; and it is somewhere
recorded that one of the chiefs being found fishing in Cook's
Straits, was hooked on board and bought over with a glass of
rum. Yet the act of this assemblage of savage, ignorant chiefs, was
designated by Lord Stanley a solemn treaty, and spoken of in the'
same manner as those of %I estphalia or Amiens.—( Hear.) But,
as he had already said, the chieftains who signedit had repudiated
it. They declared they were ignorant of what they were
signing. The Government had, therefore, no right to take
advantage of this treaty. They possessed the right which dis-
covery gave them, and no other. The treaty did n.et remove
that paramount obligation which superior civilisation had im-
posed on them. But admitting for a moment that these asipa-
tures were bona fide ones, how could the signatures of sosne
chiefs in the northern parts of the island bind those who resided
in the southern, as they were not a representative body.---.
(Hear. ) Captain Hobson only took possession of the southern
island, and therefore it in no way affected the case, and
throughout the whole of the controversy between the New
Zealand Company and Lord Stanley, that was invariably kept
in view by the Company. After the treaty of Waitanga it
was well known that it only applied to the southern island. He
was now coming to the real question. He did not object to the
treaty of Waitanga, or the provisions by which the Act re-
cognising it intended to carry it out, but he would show that
the treaty had been erroneously interpreted, and that her
Majesty was fully entitled to the possession of the waste lands
—and that, too, by the treaty of Waitanga itself. It was
said that they had taken possession of the lands of which the
natives were the rightful owners. But was that the case ?
The country was, when we took possession of it, only in the
hands of what were called "savages;" and the question was,
what would be their state under the British Government,
and what under their own laws. As they were circumstanced,
it was utterly impossible for them to occupy the soil, and
therefore they could not possess any property. As they could
not possess property, they could not alienate it. And how
was this argument sustained ? Why, they presumed that the
natives were in possession of the land, and they
went from one chieftain to another, and be stated,
that he laid claim of the land from headland.
to headland. How had they been represented? He would
give an instance. Mr. Coates had stated that Dr. Dakenback
had been refused a piece of land, because he had no Bibles to
give them. This was one specimen of the way in which mis-
sionary reports were made up, and would show to the public
the way in which they were gulled. This statement was made
two years after Dr. Dakenback had published his travels; but
on referring to Dr. Dakenback himself, he found it stated that
the Doctor had desired to go to the top of the mountain, not
because he had no muskets or no Bibles, but because the na-
tives refused to allow him to ascend the mountain unless he
gave them four sovereigns, and he had not at the time so much
gold about him.—(Hear, hear.) The chief claimed the moun-
tain, because he said it was the backbone of his ancestor.—
( Hear, and a laugh.) Now he (Mr. C. Buller) was very far
from saying that a man might not have a property in his back-
bone —( A laugh )—but it was very evident that in this instance
the claim to the land arose from no sense of the right of pro-
perty, but out of a superstitious notion. But in the question
before the House, it was not so much a matter affecting the
rights of property as the rights of sovereignty. The law re-
cognised no right of property but that which was accom-
panied by occupation. The law was full of precedents
upon this point, and the principle itself had been adopted
by the Government in the treaty of Waitanga. For in the
two documents sent to this country by Captain Fitzroy, it was
explicitly laid down, and the terms used were, " Such lands
as were enjoyed or occupied by the natives." Now, the word
" enjoyed" was of much narrower significance than the term
"occupied," and the Government only engaged to give a
guarantee for the possession of that property which, prior to
purchase, had thus been enjoyed or occupied. This very
plainly showed the sense in which the Government understood
the second article of the treaty of Waitanga. And there was
no doubt that the waste lands which were not occupied by the
natives were in the possession of her Majesty by the right of
sovereignty. He would be one of the last persons in the
world to destroy the rights of another, but he thought that
there was nothing to prevent the assumption of the waste
lands by the Crown to which they properly belonged. The
system which had been adopted of paying the natives for the
purchase of that which they never possessed, was altogether
mischievous. It was the act of bad friends—he would net say
of false friends—to give large prices to the natives for land,
which would only be wasted in the gratification of their pas-
sions, and was neither more nor less than administering poison
to the system. Prices had been unduly elevated, and to a
certainty they would come down, and it was not in Bibles or
in gold that the price would be seen, but in rum. gunpowder,
and tobacco ; and the only object they would effect would be
administering to the rude and violent passions of the
natives.—( Hear, hear.) He was here ascribing no
such evil tempers and dispositions to the settlers
for it was a rule which invariably came into operation
when a society in a high state of civilisation came into contact
with a barbarous tribe that the latter were invariably:destroyed.
It had been witnessed in every quarter and country of the earth,
and seemed to be a necessity which could not be overcome.
But in this instance the destruction might certainly be retarded,
if not altogether prevented. Which, he would ask, was the better
mode of securing the interests of the natives—to pay them high
prices for that which was not their own, to enable them by a
wild indulgence of their passions to destroy themselves ; or, by
nurturing up for them a property which might prove useful,
enable them hereafter to enjoy and improve that to which they
were really entitled. By a document which had been laid be.;
fore the Legislative Council, it appeared that, out of 60,000,000
of acres, the Government had retained only 1,700,000 acres
for itself, leaving 58,300,000 to the natives, or to be purchased
as the natives might be disposed to sell, only reserving a right
of resumption to the Crown. The evil, however, did not end
here, for by interfering between the native and the white man,
the Government had absolutely destroyed the only benefit
which they expected to achieve. When the Government had
first taken possession of New Zealand, it had appropriated the
whole of the land to itself, but they had been di-
verted from their design ; but this had been the
principle adopted by Lord Normanby, and his Noble
Friend at the head of the Colonial Department
in the late Government ; and the consequence was, they were
obliged to adopt a system by which they had forced
land up 11. an acre, which bad afterwards so fallen as to cause
a serious loss to those who held it. In September, 1844, Go-
vernor Fitzroy issued another proclamation, by which he
had imposed a tax of a penny an acre on all lands which were
not held by the natives, and this had afterwards been increased
to twopence an acre. Now, this was exceedingly strange, for
it was evident that the exemption was not to be extended to the
Government lands, for that would only be imposing a tax on pro-
perty, for which, if it was not paid, the land would be liable to
confiscation, and it was ridiculous to suppose the Government
should impose a tax on their own lands, and then confiscate
those lands to themselves if that tax was not paid. Lord
Stanley had, indeed, spoken in the most glowing terms of the
propriety of Government adhering to the terms of the treaty,
but he had at the same time privately winked at his Colonial
Governor, who in consequence Imposed a land-tax.—( A laugh. )
It was done as robberies are always done.—(Hear.) He smiled
at them while he was doing it.—(Hear, hear.) The case was
very different during that short period when the Noble Lord the
Member for London and the Noble Marquis (the Marquis of
Normanby) held the chief power. But how did Captain
Hobson, the first Governor of the island, after the treaty had
been entered into with Government—how did he act? Why
his sole object—the only governing idea in his head—seemed to
be the very ludicrous one of impressing the Company's settlers
with a very high idea of his own dignity.—(
Laughter. )Ha
outwe of the i
ntout, accompanied aniedb
y English settlersBtpersons,
ea ltawblsi
already established ,0,00
instead of soothing any misunderstandings that might have
arisen with the Government, he took the very measures
plicate them as far as he could, Where had hefixed oltds !emit;
of Government? Among the natives ! They did not want
him. They had no desire to be the witnesses of his
greatness.—( Laughter.) He did not go out to govern
the natives but the English settlers, and yet he fixed his
seat of Government among the natives. It seemed to him
(Mr. C. Buller) that whatever advantage might have arisen
from the amalgamation of the interests of the natives and the
settlers, that the means adopted to bring it about had the
very opposite tendency. Another evil, of a most mischievous
character, was the speculation in land—the disposing of parcels
by auction—and the extent to which this system was carried
could scarcely be credited. Advertisements were circulated,
and town land, in consequence, sold at Auckland to an amount
of 38,0001., twenty-one acres alone having brought the dis-
proportioned sum of 21,000/.—( Hear, hear.) All the best
ta
spots in the New Town had, however, been reed fur
the
Government officers.—( Hear, hear.) And whatin did the
pr rote home
fh oanaceoau
country
of the Governor say
to
patch, which seemed
moresa y likethis? h aHt tee mw
tradesmen to run down his rivals, than the report of a man
placed in an important colonial situation. And yet the affairs
of the colony flourished, and they founded new towns at Nelson
and other places. Their first great principle was to supply
land at 20s. an acre, allowing 155., however, to be retained for