The Sun.
London, England, 1842-04-27 00:00:00

IPSWICH ELECTION—C.:SE OF
On the Order of the Day for th- attendance of Henry Fisk,
~Elizabeth Ann Cullen. and the Surgeon of Newgate at the bar
of the House being read,
The SPEAKER directed Elizabeth Ann Culien should be
called in.
Elizabeth Ann Cullen then came to the bar, and was exa-
tnitted as follows :
' The SPEAKER—Is your name Elizabeth Ann Cullen?—
It if.
Are you the sister of Obadiah Barwick Lucas ?—I am.
s.' Examined by Mr. PAKINGTON—IIid Obadiah Bar-
Wick Lucas reside with you in Bond-street, Ipswieh, in the
month of April, 1837 ? Yes.
Do you recollect any conversation taking place during that
mouth between your brother and a man named George Scho-
• berg?—Yes.
Do you recollect that the day subsequent to that conversation
:"' George Schobrrg committed suicide ?—Yes.
State to the House what was the effect which the suicide of
Schoberg produced on the mind of your brother. —The effect
Produced upon my brother's mind was such that we were afraid
to leave him alone.
Were you in the habit of seeing your brother since 1837 ?
--Yes.
• • Has his mind recovered from the shock of that excitement ?
Never.
Has he been, since that time, in a state of nervous excite-
bent ?—Yes.
Do you consider his memory was impaired?—l do.
Did von see your brother on the evening peeceding his ex-
amination before the Election Committee ?-1 did.
In what state of mind was he then ?—He was exceedingly
excited.
••• Did you see him since his commitment to Newgate ?—Yes.
In what state did you find him ?—ln the same state.
The witness was then ordered to withdraw.
The Surgeon of Newgate next appeared at the Bar, and, in
,replyto a question from the SPEAKER, said that he had known
"Lucas since the time of his confinement in Newgate. He had
teen Lucas that day. He had seen him professionally. Lucas
Was out of health. He considered the man was in a gloomy
state of mind.
- In answer to a further question from Mr. PAKINGTON,
the witness stated that he had particularly directed his atten-
tion to the state of mind of Lucas within the last day or two.
The man appeared to witness to be labouring under
great nervous excitement. Witness considered it quite
Possible that the state of nervous excitement under
•• which the man laboured. might so have affected his mind
as to render it probable that he could not give c3rrect evidence
with respect to a transaction in which he had taken part nine
ten-months ago.
The witness was then ordered to withdraw.
Mr. PAKINGTON then rose and said, that he did not
know whether the conclusion to which ha had come, from the
- evidence just given, might be the same as that at which the
House had arrived. He hoped, however, that it would not ap-
'•• pear to those Hon. Gentlemen with whom he had the pleasure
tt.:%of acting in the Committee, that he was going to pursue a
Bourse at all inconsistent with the step which they had taken in
4 -ordering the commitment of Lucas to Newgate for the false
evidence which he had given ; and that it would not be sup-
t'ss rsed'by the House that he was at all deviating from the opt-
,-- mon -he had expressed on a farmer occasion, that Committees
e;. • were bound to resort to the powers which they possessed, when
'- be expressed his opinion, that the statements which had been
4-1' made at.the Bar, raised a strong presumption that the false
'zt. answers ,whieb Lucas had given them, were, in a great degree,
`e occasioned by his infirmity. The Hon. Gentleman accordingly
~..moyed, that. Obadiah Barwick Lucas be discharged from her
Majesty's gaol. of Newgate.
Mr. PARKER thought that the end which the House had
t,'s • had in view in showing its determination to cause the authe-
.... eity-of the Committees to be respected, and their questions to
be answered truly, had• been attained, and he supported the
-Motion. • -
Mr.O'CONNELL doubted that the man ought to have been
committed at all. . Upon reading the evidence, it seemed very
- Probable that. his contradictions were occasioned by fatuity—
(Hear, hear)—and that no Jury would convict him of wilful
..Perjury.--4 Hear, hear.) After what the House had heard,
there scarcely could be any oppo.dtion to his discharge.
Mr. DARBY else concurred in the motion for discharging
the prisoner.
Sir C. B. VERE read a certificate from a surgeon attend-
ing Lucas, stating that he was labouring under strong nervous
excitement.
After a few words from Mr. PAKINGTON, the question
was put and carried.
NOTICES OF MOTIONS.
Me. O'CONNELL gave notice that he would, on Thurs..
•day;_the 10th of May, cill the attention of the House to the
-stateof -Rclman Catholics in the army and navy (as we under-

"blood).
TEXAS.
.4 , Mr. O'CONNELL wished to put a question to the Right
Hon: Baronet at the head of her Majesty's Government with
respect to Texas. He wished to know whether the treaties
. between this country and Texas had been ratified ?
Sir R. PEEL said, that three treaties had been drawn up
•between this country and Texas. The one was for the giving
• facilities to.commerce, the other was for the abolition of slavery,
and the etherw as forgranting certain loans from Texas to Mexico.
Those treaties it was provided were to be ratified simal-
,; taneously, and the day_ fixed for that ratification was the lst of
August. Since the Hon. Gentleman gave notice of the ques-
t- tion, information had been received from Texas that no ratifi-
',,` Cation had taken place, but that the commercial treaty was
-toady for ratification, that the Sena.e of Texas had agreed to
• ratify the treaty for the suppression of the slave trade, and he
believed.also that the other treaty was ready for signature. He
_believed that all the treaties would be ratified in a very short
time.
Mr—O'CONNELL said that the other question he wished
to pit to. the Right Hon. Baronet was relative to the conduct
of the British 'Minister at Mexico. He understood that a
S,. proposition had been made from the Texian to the Mexican
Government that, on condition of making peace, certain sums
-.llseekl pass between them, and that a furiher sum should be
:]liven as a bribe to Saldanha. He had been informed that the
Minister of this country in Mexico was a party to that trainee •
.„
s tion, inasmuch as he had actually conveyed the letters contain-
tag the proposal. Now he (Mr. O'Connell) wished to know
-. whether that was true or not.
Sir R. PEEL was sorry that the Right Hon. and Learned
4*, Gentleman had not given notice of his intention to put the
• • question, because in cases of such importance, relating to
!.•; parts of the world so distant from this country, he was anxious to
be is accurate as possible, but it did so happen that he recol-
lected having -read a despatch from the British Minister in
• -Mexico giving an account of the transaction. He declared
' that he was.requested by a party he need not name, to deliver
tin :stetter to the Mexican authorities, having every reason to be-
.." .lieve that it related to other subjects. The letter he believed
was written in English. but the Minister was perfectly unaware
of its contents, and when he was told what it did contain, he
immediately wrote to the Secretary of State for Foreign
.Affairs, expressing his regret that he should have been un-
conscioush made the instrument of conveying any such pro-
posal. The English Minister at Mexico was as perfectly free
It from blame in the affair as he was himself.—s Hear, hear. )
ti „ Had he been aware of the contents of the letter, he would
never have been the means of conveying it..
4 -4, TRADE WITH TURKEY.
• fed Dr.
D BOWRING asked if the Right Hon. Baronet could
•
5'., state when the correspondence relative to the commercial treaty
f• t': between this country and the Ottoman Porte would be ready
.for presentation to the House ?
4' cs Sir R. PEEL said that he would make inquiries on the
''arnbject.
.4 • - SLAVE TRADE.
'ark ; L-- Captain PECHELL moved for a return of various details
connected with the Slave-trade, and slave vessels seized and
condemned by the Mixed Commission Courts.
POOR-LAWS.
t • .
Captain PECHELL also gave notice that on the 10th of
May he should move for a return of the number and names of
'h. • all persons punished for offences in the union poor houses.
I NEW POOR-LAW.
Sfr J. GRAHAM gave notice that on Thursday, the sth of
ss May, he would move for leave to bring in a Bill to continue
';; _ tke Poor-law Commission for a time, to be limited.
•CATHOLIC SOLDIERS IN INDIA.
• • Mr. O'CONNELL, in rising to move for a Select Committee
to consider and report upon the state of spiritual destitution of
the Catholic soldiers serving in India and China, said that this
was a subject of the greatest importance, and that it excited the
' . attention of soldiers and officers in the army, and of persons in
• the highest rank in society. He should confine his motion to
the state of the Catholic soldiers nerving in India and China,
with referenceto their religions instruction. He did not wish
. to include anything that related to the state of the army in
'other parts of the Empire. Out of the sum of 11,0001. dedi-
cated to the instruction of the British army, no part of it had
been laid out in India ; but the whole of it was confined to
other parts of the British empire, and, he was sorry to say,
that there was only 7AOI. laid out for the instruction of Ca-
tholic soldiers. But with that at present he had nothing to
do: His motion related to those unly in India and Chinas
With respect to the army in China, he (Mr. O'Connell) had
I,- his information from a gentleman, whose name he was ready
to communicate. He did not see any reason for
0 withholding it. It was the Hon. Captain Jerningham.
Thee Catholic soldiery had to meet the same dangers as their
cy ' -comrades—they had to encounter the same effects of 'climate,
and they displayed the same gallantry in the field. The ex-
• cellent gentleman to whom he had referred would be ready, if
a Committee were granted, to give an account of the heart-
"' „.. • 'rending sufferings of those Catholic soldiers especially who died
-of sickness. He wnuid at the same time bear testimony to the
humanity of the Protestant chaplains, who had behaved with
the greatest delicacy, in not obtruding themselves where their
‘‘s,•; tspiritual services could not be accepted, but who did every-
;". abing in their power to alleviate the temporal wants of the un-
a fortunate Catholic soldiery. The only subject of regret was
, • • that those Catholics were deprived of spiritual assistance of a
Virid eimilar to that which was extended to the Protestant sol-
i - diery. He could show the House a case of most complete des-
, es.' - tritution in that respect. He had been totally misinformed, if
• OW feet were not that no Catholic clergyman had attended the
ascoops to China. It should also be remembered that the attend-
ance of at clergyman was considered of infinitely more importance
• -by Catholics in their last moments than by members of any other
persualion. A Catholic clergyman had to administer the last
'sacrament; and he (Mr. O'Connell) was sure, that every
Memberof that House would be anxious that Catholic soldiers
- • should not be deprived of such consolation. In India the
- sops were scattered at such a distance from each other, that
few of the Catholics had the benefit of the attendance of a
he 'Oman of their own persuasion. He would read a letter
received from a Catholic clergyman in Calcutta, dated
• 11. . 4
,; the 19,1 i February last, upon that subject. The following is
an extra *A from the letter :—" You have heard of the sad fate
of Lieut. .cart, Neon-in-law of General Sale. If his advice
bad been talon, We should have had a better result. When
Sturt was wolindeal, our native soldiers gave themselves up to be
butchered. Met so the' 44th Regiment, most of whom were
These poor fellows, reduced in the last degree by
hunger and cold; never abas:doned Stint vshile he had life in
they mounted him on a
him. When he was too weak to walk,
pony, and supported him as long as tit. could. Not oneutf_thes7
poor fellows has escaped. I wish they had n:'4 a
butpriest near h
nothingli
n
Our friends in India have taken this matter .”
it. home, for
can be looked for until some measure is originate..
, 0 ove
every answer given to our applications by the Indian i
, • went, has been mere evasion." Now much dependen ' the
rz
.• been placed on a sort of pledge made by a Alember of
late Government on the subject, while the question of the Ess.
India Charter was under discussion before, and on the occasion
• of an interview between several Catholic Members and the then
Mr. Grant (now Lord Glerielg), who was accompanied by Mr.
I'.'s. Gordon. The deputation were given to understand that not
bringing the matter before Parliament while the question was
. ,in asitatien, the Government would be induced to supply re-
'l! • medics for the grievances they complained of. He (Mr.
O'Connell) had repeatedly urged this species of pledge on the
late Government, and had been promised from time to time
that something efficient would be done. But he was sorry to
say that nothing had been done ; and the parties on whose be-
half they had applied, remained in the same state of sp:ritual
destitution they were in at the time of the interview. When
kw• he asked the Right Hon. Baronet and Gallant Officer the
Secretary at War whether anything was in contemplation in
this matter by the present Government, he was plessed to
re-
fer him to a Parliamentary paper laid on the table of the I louse
' on the motion of Lord Ashley, on the 2d of March, .1839.
[Sir H. Hardinge made some remark.] He (Mr. O'Coi inell)
really thought there was something like a want of courts •:y 0,,
, the part of the Right Hon. Baronet ; but now he ssis I that
tke Right Hon. Baronet had mistaken his question, whit h was
. whether it was in the contemplation of the Government to do
anything in this matter. lie (Mr. O'Connell) was then
ticketed by those motives, whether the House would &ea him