The Sun.
London, England, 1842-06-22 00:00:00

talked of conscience ! and in many discussions on religion in
that House how many bigoted refusals were there to do
justice to others, becausa they differed in religious belief from
them. There was one advantage, at all events; they were all

agreed, theoretically, at least, as to morals; but here was a
practical demonstration of the practical effect of their
English system—their conscientious system, which loft the
briber to get the value of his money from the bribed. The
effect of the Ballot would be to make men generous, noble-
minded, humane.—( Hear, hear.) The deteriorating effects of
the present s;:stem were undeniable. No one had attempted
to deny the existence of bribery. Some had qualified it; others
might have exaggerated it, but all admitted the frightful ex-
tent to which it prevailed. He certainly should vote for the
motion of the Hon. Member for Sheffield.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the observations of the Right
Hon. Gentleman opposite, would not allow him to give a
silent vote on the motion of the Hon. Member for Sheffield.
With respect to that portion of them which referrel to what
had taken place relative to the Reform Bill, he did not know
that. the account he had to give, would differ materially from
that given by the Right Hon. Gentleman. He (Lord J. Rus-
sell) would allude only, therefore, to what had been his own
expections and (.pinions on the subject. The late Lord Durham
had, in the year 1833, stated at• Gateshead, that there
had been a Committee, consisting of members of Lord
Grey's Government, appointed to prepare a plan of
a Reform Bill. That statement led to another statement

• in the Edinburgh Review, which to his (Lord J. Russell's)
• mind, and to the mind of any one conversant with the trans-
actions of the period, bore the character of having been
written or communicated by some member of Lord Grey's
Government. Upon that occasion he ( Lord J. Russell)
thought it necessary to apply to his late Majesty, King Wil-
liam the Fourth, to allow him, if he should think it at any time
necessary to make a statement of what had occurred with
respect to the Reform Bill, so far as his (Lord J Russell's)
own public character was concerned. He had received his
Majesty's gracious permission, and some time afterwards he had
made the statement to which his Right Hon. Friend had alluded.
That statement referred, as the Right Hon. Gentleman had
said, to the recommendations of the Committee to Lord Grey's
Cabinet. Those recommendations were a general outline, which
was to be considered by the Cabinet before being finally adopted.
There were two points with regard to which the Committee
made recommendations which had not been adopted by the
Cabinet. They related to secret voting—( Hear, hear)—and
the duration of Parliament. The votes which he had given
previous to that occasion were in conformity and consistent with
the votes he had given since, namely, against the Ballot. He
had had an opinion—not the opinion he now entertained after
the discussions which had taken place, and the various lights
in which the question had been put—but he had had an opinion
partly gathered from his own reflections, and partly from the
speeches made on the subject by Mr. Brougham in this House
of Parliament, showing as he (Lord J. Russell) thought, that
secret voting would not be carried into effect. There were
other reasons with regard to what he considered likely to be a
consequence—increase of bribery—which had made him totally
averse to the adoption of the plan. There were other reasons
in its favour ; and with respect to the whole sub-
ject he then thought, as Lord Althorp afterwards
expressed, that it would be desirable, if possible, to make the
Reform Bill, which was to be introduced, a final measure. It
seemed to him that by leaving those questions of secret voting
and duration of Parliament to be afterwards debated, the set-
tlement of the subject would be effected better than it other-
wise could. Those were the reasons that had operated on his
mind with reference to those questions. However, on mature
deliberation, the Cabinet had rejected those two points of the
scheme, and he had willingly consented to propose the Reform
Bill without those parts of the scheme being introduced. He
had on that occasion stated that there was no provision for the
adoption of the Ballot —no provision with respect
to the duration of Parliament that he himself
did not consider that those subjects were finally concluded, but
that Government if they should hereafter see reason to think
that that measure might be usefully adopted, would be at
liberty to recommend it. That was substantially the state-
ment which he had made, differing as the Right Hon. Gentle-
man had shown from the statement afterwards made by Lord
Althorp, who considered, not at that moment, but during the
subsequent discussion, that the enactment of the Reform Bill
was a settlement of the whole question. He had endeavoured
to state carefully what was his own impression on the subject,
what was the determination of the Government, and it would
seem to him to follow from that statement that either
with respect to himself or any Member of the
then Government, they were at liberty to take any
objection which might seem to them a valid objec-
tion. With respect to the Ballot, the statements, that
had been made that night on the subject, seemed to have
this difficulty in them that they did not contain the whole of
the plan which the majority of those who were in favour of the
Ballot were disposed to support. Now, if they adopted the
Ballot, as the electoral body was now framed, with respect to
the smaller boroughs, it was probable that wholesale bribery
would be practised. He asked, then, if the Ballot had even
been found to produce wholesome and salutary effects in other
countries, was it likely to produce them in this?—(Hear)
bear.) He said with his Hon. Friend, that he could imagine
nothing more contrary to the 'English character. He could
well imagine that there were ingenious persons who had
carried to perfection the machinery of the I3aLot-
box, that they could place in a room a certain
contrivance which would prevent the possibility of any
one discovering for whom a man gave his vote; hut then
what machinery was there which would make an Englishman—.
an English farmer or an English tradesman—reserved, and
cunning, and secret, in all his transactions ?—( Hear, hear, from
the Ministerial benches.) Let them show him, if they could,
by what contrivance the character of an Englishman would be
so changed that his landlord would not be able to tell what were
his political opinions? Let them show him the contrivance by
which at no club, at no dinner, neither in the privacy of his
domestic life, nor on any occasion of public excitement, he
should betray his sentiments, or that it should only be on this
day of voting that he expressed his opinions, and on every other
day, they should be perfectly secret and perfectly concealed,
—( Hear, hear.) These things were contrived in the Senate of
Venice. In the Senate of Venice there was a most ingenious
contrivance with respect to the election of the Doge. Seven
elected forty-toe, fifty-five elected five, and five elected twenty-
three, and through that contrivance it was said that elections
were decided without bribery, without intimidation, and with-
out influence of any sort. That might suit the close and
reserved character of the Venetian Senate—it did not suit the
character of the English. --( Cheers from the Ministerial
Benches.) By means of such voting they might in some cases
prevent intimidation and bribery, but the great, the gigantic,
evil which they would introduce would far counterbalance all
the good which they would effect, and the loss of the honest
and brave English character would be a loss which nothing
hereafter could ever repair.—( Hear, hear.) He had new
stated the grounds upon which he had voted against the Ballot
on former occasions. With respect to the change then pro-
posed, he could not imagine that it was the only change which
its advocates recommended; he, therefore, asked to have the
whole plan before he voted for any change of that descrip-
tion. Taking the Ballot alone, he doubted its excellency. He
knew of no country in which it had produced those excellent
and beneficial effects which it was said it was intended to pro-
duce. He thought, in itself, it was calculated to produce fraud
and concealment, and to injure the character of the people;
and therefore now, as on former occasions, he must record his
vote against the motion. —( Cheers.)
Mr. WAKLEY said he was very much surprised at the
cheers with which the Noble Lord had been received by
Hon. Members opposite. In 1831, the Noble Lord, in con-
junction with the Right Hon. Baronet, agreed in recom-
mending to Lord Grey's Government that the Ballot should
be one of the measures taken into consideration and adopted.
He thought that showed how recklessly, thoughtlessly, or
dishonestly public men shaped their course with regard to
different measures which they submitted to the Legislature.
In that case he did not believe that the recommendation was
dishonestly made; but it was an exemplification of the fact,
that measures affecting the rights and liberties of the people were
frequently brought forward by men holding most responsible
situations without due consideration. Now he was placed with
respect to this question of the Ballot in a very disagreeable po-
sition.—(Laughter.) In the speech of the Noble Lord there
was but one argument against the Ballot, namely, that if the
Ballot was applied to the present constituencies it would lead to
other changes, the most important of which would be an ex-
tension of the suffrage. Now his conviction was directly the
reverse. The present constituencies had a monopoly of the
power of voting, the number who possessed the right to vote
being as one to seven. Did the House believe that if they were
to give to the present electors the right of exercising the electoral
franchise in secret, and free from the responsibility which the
opinion of the non-elector now threw upon him—did they
believe that the electors would be willing to swamp their own
power, by bringing in a greater number of voters ?—( Hear,
hear.) There was a great deal said about independent voting,
but he believed what they really wanted, was voting on their
own side of the question. The working classes would say, in
reference to this question, " If you are determined to adopt
the Ballot, give us first a share in the suffrage, and don't place
us at the mercy of men who are unmindful of the interests
of their country." Consequently, although he should vote for
the motion—( Laughter)—notwithstanding all he had said against
it—( Loud laughter)-he concluded simply with this remark,
that if the House should carry the motion, and if a. Bill should
be introduced for carrying it into effect, if he could not succeed
in connecting with this motion an extension of the suffrage, no
person would give to it a more hearty, a more consistent, or a
more determined opposition than himself.—( Hear.)
Lord WORSLEY supported the motion. His belief was,
that notwithstanding all the arguments which he had heard that
night against the Ballot, there were abuses in the present
system which could not be remedied by any other measure.
He thought the people would not possess the full benefit of
the Reform Bill until the Ballot hadbeenestablished._

Mr. WARD rose amidst loud cries of " Divide," and said
that in the then state of the House he should compress the few
remarks be had to make into as few words as possible. He
ruse with peculiar satisfaction, at the close of a long debate, to
find that hardly any of the statements upon which lie rested
his case had been contradicted. In fact all his allegations
were admitted—nobody disputed them, for all acknowledged
that bribery and corruption prevailed to a great extent. The
Hon. Member for Pontefract absolutely gave him hopes of his
being a convert to the measure. He (Mr. Ward) had risen
as the advocate of the Ballot, believing that they could suppress
bribery by law, and that they could not touch intimidation.
The Noble Lord said that the Ballot was not sufficient. One
half of those who looked to the question that night did not at-
tach any finality ; on the contrary, he did not believe the
Ballot alone would be the means of a perfectly free representa-
tion of this country; but he said that it was the most bene-
ficial and practical change the circumstances of the
country would admit.—( Hear, hear.) Nothing would
more contribute to put an end to that practice
which they all seemed to deplore. The Noble Lord objected
to it on the ground that it would lead to further organic
change. Now, the Noble Lord had to contend with that argu-
ment when he introduced the Reform Hear, hear )
The Noble Lord also referred to Rome, and said that
the Ballot existed there when corruption was at its
highest. He (Mr. Ward) did not think the
people believed that the Ballet would introduce a higher
state of morality amongst constituencies, but they
believed that it would check intimidation and bribery. The
Noble Lord also referred to France, but a French writer had
lately said that their great security lay in the Ballot, and that it
was their highest privilege, and he further stated that. if it were
abolished, the power of the Government would he increased.—
( Cries of " Divide, divide.") He would not detain the House ;
he had felt it to be his duty to bring the subject forward, and
he should leave it in the hands of the Howe.
The House then divided—
For the motion .. 157
Against it '29o
Majority against the motion .. —133
CUSTOMS BILL.

The House then went into Committee on the Customs Bill,
and certain verbal amendments were made.
The House then resumed, and the Bill was ordered to be
printed.—Report on Thursday next.
ELECTION PROCEEDINGS.

On the motion of Mr. ROEBUCK, Mr. W. Miles and Sir
W. Heathcote were discharged from further attendance on the
Election Proceedings Committee ; and Mr. Wilson Patten and
Mr.-Eliot Yorke were added to it.
MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS (IRELAND).

Lord ELIOT moved for leave to bring'in a Bill to amend
the 3d and 4th of her present Majesty, intituled, " An Act for
the Regulation of Municipal Corporations in Ireland." The
Noble Lord explained that the object of the Bill was to remedy
some informalities that had occurred in municipal elections in
Ireland.
'l'hc motion was agreed to, the Bill was subsequently read a