The Sun.
London, England, 1845-05-03 00:00:00

station, had had the benefit of such able counsel as defended
him, and had been tried before so excellent a judge, and so
impartial a jury, that his confession of guilt under such cir-
cumstances was a matter of much consequence, as it could not
in the least add to the satisfaction on the mind of every one
that he was guilty of the crime laid to his charge.—(Hear,
hear.) He must confess that he did not see how the magis-
trates, more than any one else who might take an interest in
the matter, had any right to call for the production of any
communication made to the chaplain.—( Hear, hear.)
The Duke of BUCKINGHAM thought the question was,
whetherior not the chaplain was justified in withholding a
statement made to him under such circumstances.
Lord STANLEY said he would make inquiry of the Home
Secretary into the circumstances, and would take an early
opportunity of communicating the result to their Lordships.
BANGOR AND ST. ASAPH.
Earl POWIS presented several petitions fro n places in
Wales against the union of the sees of Asaph and Bangor. In
moving the second reading of the Bill it became necessary for
him now to state the result of the communications he had
with the public on the subject of disuniting the two sees. He
had lately received petitions in favour of his measure from
nearly every county in England and Wales, and all
of them complained of the difficulties and inconveni-
ence which had arisen from the union of the
two sees. There was a numerous population in
both sees, and their Lordships must be fully aware of the
difficulties the present Right Rev. Prelate had to contend
against, owing to the dissimilitude which existed between the
two languages. That Right Rev. Prelate was distinguishe.l
for his learning and piety, and although he had the love and
confidence of his fleck, he confessed that he found it extremely
difficult to pay due and sufficient attention to improving the
state and . ondition of the numerous flock under his charge.
And if the Right Rev. Prelate experienced difficulties of this
kind, how would his successor, who might happen to have less
experience and be less distinguished for his talents, be able to
contend against them ? Then, if they wanted any additional
evidence of the inconvenience resulting from the union of two
dioceses, they had it. in the case of the dioceses of Gloucester
and Bristol, the union of which had given rise to extraordinary
inconvenience and difficulty. Many persons had petitioned
their Lordships whose interests were directly advanced by the
union of the two sees ; but the petitioners (for instance, the
clergy and inhabitants of Manchester) had petitioned
against the union, declaring their conscientious ob-
jection to receiving benefit from an Act which inflicted in-
jury on another part of the country. He regretted that a
Noble Lord who took a deep interest in this matter last year
was unable to attend on that occasion, but he had the satisfac-
tion of assuring the House that that Noble Lord's (Harrowby's)
apinion on this matter remained unchanged. As regarded the
appointment of a Bishop of Manchester, he thought the
enormous and increasing population of Lancashire, as shown in
the last census returns, was a sufficient inducement, or at all
events it would be an ample justification for them agreeing to
this part of his measure. The next topic to which he would
allude was an amendment which had been introduced by hi‘
Noble Friend, on the Act of 6th and 7th William IV.,
which had been the foundation of the Church Commission. He
only wished that his Noble Friend had been of the same
opinion now that he was when this Commission was issued ;
and that he and the inhabitants of North Wales could have the
advantage of the area:merits which he bad then used, for he
was sure that then her Majesty's Government and the sereral
members of the Ecclesiastical Commission would act with him.
The report of that Commission was made on the 17th of
March, 1835, and in the year following, on the 4th of March,
a great alteration had been made in the view taken
by the Ecclesiastical Commission of the union of the sees
of St. Asaph and Bangor, and on the increase of the incomes
of those dioceses. Their object at the latter time appeared to be
to alter those sees, and to apply the sums to other purposes than
those contemplated by the Ecclesiastical Commission when first
this reduction was mooted. The income of the diocese of St.
Asaph was 5,200/. a-year, and that of Bangor, 3,8001. It was
proposed to take from these the sums of 2,3001., and, with the
28,000/. already appropriated from other sources, to create a
sum of upwards of 30,000/., which was to increase the incomes
of the thirteen Bishops, to the amount of 3,0001. a year. This
report, however, did not bear the signature of Sir R. Inglis,
but of Thomas Spring Rice. At the time it was first proposed
to take anything from the 3,800/. of the diocese of Bangor,
the money was to be appropriated to the improvement of the
poorer livings. During the long time in which he had had to
fulfil his duty to the principality, he had frequently had occa-
sion to see persons high in the confidence of her Majesty's Go-
vernment ; but during the whole of his experience he had
never received a more explicit reply than had been made to a
deputation, which had, on this subject, waited on Lord John
Russell and Mr. Spring Rice, at that time Chancellor of the
Exchequer, and, from the words which fell from Lord John
Russell, it was certainly the impression of the deputation thst
it was the intention of the Government to place the bishoprics
in Wales on precisely the same footing as other bishoprics. They
conceived at that time that no portion ought to be taken from
the revenues of the Welsh benefices, as they were at
that time only sufficient, and barely sufficient, for the
wants of the people, and that if they did so they
would reduce the revenues below the requirement
of the country for spiritual instruction. That deputation had
been composed of men of the highest position, and of all par-
ties. After the interview, however, he was free to confess that
the hope of the deputation had gone be. Yet Lord John Rus-
sell had admitted that there was no opportunity of taking any-
thing from the amount of the incomes of the sees of St. Asaph
and Bangor ; although he had stated the intention of the Go-
vernment to modify those bishoprics. Since 1836, con-
siderable attention had been paid to the interests of North
Wales, but still not that degree of attention which its interests
were entitled to. In South Wales the cases were somewhat
different, yet to both portions of the country the same prin-
ciple applied. There were in the whole of Wales deaneries,
and to each see there were two canonries attached. Not-
withstanding the declaration of the Government, that it was
intended to place the Church in England and Wales on the
same footing, and to assimilate the number of the canonries to
those belonging to the chapters in England, the number re-
mained unaltered, and while the deaneries in England were
1,000/. each, while those in Wales were only 7001. each ; and
while the canonries in England were 500/. a-year, those in
Wales were only 300/. a-year. There was another source from
whence the sums required might be drawn and applied to
North Wales. This was the revenues of what were called the
sinecure vicarages, to which no duty was attached, and no in-
jury would therefore be done by applying their
incomes to active and useful purposes. if it was
not taking too great a liberty, he would address their
Lordships on two other points. 'they were illustrative of the
sense of two important bodies on this question. It would be
recollected by their Lordships that last year the University cf
Oxford had conferred a degree upon him. At the time when
this great honour was conferred he was unknown to that uni-
versity, except through his connexion with the question of the
union of the sees of Bangor and St. Asaph. His conduct on
that question had found favour in their eyes, and hence it was
that they conferred on bins that which he looked upon as the
greatest compliment ever paid him since his entry into publie
life. His only passport to their favour had been the conscien-
tious discharge of his duty. And this he would say, that his
reception for the part he had taken, and the proceedings con-
nected with that reception, coming from the young blood and
education of England, supported by the learning and ability
that presided over it, was not to be slighted or lightly passed
over. In this country public opinion virtually reigned, and
their Lordships would do well to consider it. This was not a
demonstration gotup by public excitement, and by ignorant men,
but of a body who perfectly understood the subject and the con-
sequences which would result from it. The next point to which
he would revert, as illustrating public opinion on this subject,
was a vote of thanks given him by the clergy of the diocese of
Bangor, for the part he had taken in endeavouring to prevent
the onion of the sees of Bangor and St. Asaph. The Noble
Lord here read the vote of thanks, and concluded by moving
the second reading of the Bangor and St. Asaph and Man
cheater Dioceses Bill.
-
The Duke of WELLINGTON said he could not give his
assent to what the Noble Lord who had just sat down proposed.
With respect to the petitions which had been presented, he
must express his admiration of those who had signed them for
their attachment to the Church. Still they should not be led
away by these petitions. He had looked into the petitions
presented against the union of Bangor and St. Asaph, up to
the close of last session, and out of 312 presented, only one-
third, or about 100, were presented from the dioceses of St.
Asaph and Bangor. The others were from all other parts of
England.— (Hear, hear.) He would make some observations
on these petitions presently. But what he wished to call their
attention at present to was the particular provisions of this
Bill. It was a Bill neither more or less than to repeal the Act
5 and 6 William IV., which Act was intended to carry into
effect the report of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners. He
would state the object sought to be obtained by that Com-
mission. It was desired to remove many anomalies from out of
the Church—to render it, in the exercise of its duties, more
efficient and more general—to extend its influence into parts
of the country where its superintendence was much required,
and to render it an object of attachment and affection in all parts
of the nation, but more especially in populous districts. The great
object was to review and revise the whole system, and to render it
more useful for the wants of the people. This it was desirable
to do by the means already at the disposal of the Church, and
hence, in 1835, the Government recommended the issuing of
the Commission. In the report drawn up by that Commission
certain recommendations were made, and it was well known
that the arrangements proposed to be carried out, founded OR
that report, involved a great sacrifice of patronage, not only
on the part of the country, but by the Ministry, the Right
Reverend Prelates and Noble Lords of both sides of the
House. All this sacrifice was made with the single object of
rendering the Church more efficient in its ministrations, and
better adapted to the wants of the people. For he did not see
why the public should be made to incur greater expense than
was absolutely necessary, and he was quite confident that if
this union took place, all that could be desired for the efficient
maintenance of the Church would be fully secured. He could
easily account for the number of petitions that had been pre-
sented by Noble Lords against the union of the sees, by a feel-
ing on the part of the petitioners that by the proposed arrange-
ment the temporal interests of the Church would not be suffi-
ciently atended to. No one felt more than he did the neces-
sity of making proper provision for the interests of the Church,
and he considered it one of the greatest advantages which th s
country possessed—the having men of great attainments, and
with moral worth, tilling the highest offices in the Church—
which he contended was to a certain extent to be attributed to
the circumstance of the having an adequate remuneration for
the discharge of the important duties which devolved upon
them. Associating as he did there and elsewhere with them,
he was enabled to say that a more worthy or more excellent
body of men did cot exist, and the public could not secure
the services of such men unless they were properly recom-
pensed for their services. Many, as he had already remarked,
had thought that the proposed arrangement would not effect
this, and that cause he attributed two-thirds of the peti-
tions that had been presented against the union of the sees,
but lie could assure the Noble Lords that such would not be
the case. That union was certainly the foundation of part o
the system in relation to tithe, end it appeared to him that
they would not be able to maintain the other parts of the
system if they adopted this measure.—( Hear, hear. ) It would
immediately be supposed by their assenting to it that it was
their intention to withdraw from the system altogether.—
(Hear, hear.) He begged their attention for a few minutes,
and he thought he would be able to show them that
the dioceses of St. Asaph and Bangor had no reason
whatever to complain of the whole arrangement. A
sum had been already given to augment the amount enjoyed
by the small livings, but he was not aware that any portion of
that came from the dioceses of St. Asaph and Bangor. He then
came to consider what the sacrifice would be to the diocese of
Bangor when this Act came into operation, and also what the
gain would be. The sacrifice which would be made by the
diocese of St. Asaph and Bangor would be altogether
the
tee
n d n d sinecuretha rt etcht
no r
si
rwahl which
two or
iuelsd
aal
lmnovuenr t
Et on
but, on the other hand, they would acquire thjadvantages of
g3lre la.ndlltyawleass
should be reformed, and the revenues applied to the parochial
service of the dioceses in which they exist. But that Act went
further, for one clause of it enabled, the Commissioners not to
wait till the demise of the present incumbents, but to purchase
the advowsons at any time, so that the proceeds might be ap
plied by the Act for the purposes of parochial service. Another
advantage would be the gain of three archdeacons and an
increase of deans, chapters, and canons, all of whom would be
properly provided for ; and they would also gain by the parochial
services being more efficiently attended to. He would now
come to the inconveniences of the proposedarrangement. The
two dioceses, when united, were not so large, nor did it con-
tain so many livings as many other dioceses, and he could not
understand why one Right Rev. Prelate could not perform
without difficulty or inconvenience the same duties as another
Right Rev. Prelate, whose diocese happened to be in another

:\ i'.

TILE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY MORNING, MAY 3, 1845.

part of the country. He could not, either, see how any coin-
plaint could be made to the taking away of of u Bishop, when
there were other persons appointed to perfeeter.his duties. On
the whole, he thought he had said suffi,Vent a convince their
Lordships that there was no necessicy for tt.he measure of the
Noble Earl, and he should, therefore, move as an amendment
that it be read a second time that day six months.
The Bishop of BANGOR implored the House to listen to
the petition of the people of Wales, and the majority of the
people of England, and not to create a union of the two sees of
Bangor and St. Asaph. It would greatly inconvenience him-
self and his Right Rev. Friend the Bishop of St. Asaph, with-
out either benefiting the clergy or the population of the two
dioceses. The Noble Duke, in treating this question, seemed
to consider it a matter of pounds, shillings, and pence, and
dwelt upon the money-saving which would result to the two
dioceses if a union were effected; but the question, in his opi-
nion, and in the opinion of the clergy and people of Wales,
assumed a higher and more important character. It was cer-
tainly with them riot a question of pounds, shillings, and pence,
but a question bearing upon the spiritual wants of the princi-
pality. The people of Wales looked upon the union as a step
towards reducing the means afforded them of spiritual instruction,
and it was upon that ground, and that ground alone, that they
supported the measure which the Noble Earl had submitted to
their Lordships. The office he filled, he could assure their
Lord hips, was antthing but a sinecure. He believed there
were no sinecure tithes or livings in the diocese of St. Asaph,
from which his F. ight Rs verend Frieetl, who was not then
present, derived any he.,efit. With regard to the see of Man-
chester, he could -see no difficulty in providing funds for its.
support. Whether well or ill endowed, whether rectories,
vicarages, or curacies, it was the desire of the people that the
sees should remain as they are; and as long as they entertain
a hope that they shall not be amalgamated, they will persevere
in every exertion to prevent what they conceive to be a mis-
fortune. Whatever might be the opinions of their Lordships,
he hoped that they would not be drawn away by the eloquence
and the arguments with which the Noble Lord on the Wool•
sack was accustomed to delight their Lordships. He would
now conclude by recommending the petitions and the feelings
and the inserests of these people to their consideration.
The Earl of WINCHILSEA felt that it was necessary to
call the emphatic attention of their Lordships to the course
which they were now pursuing. There was no axiom more
true or which, as Christian legislators, they were called upon
to attend to, than that they should not follow any course whirls
was in itself evil, in order to produce what was in itself good,
for he was confident that if any good did apparently arise, it
would in the end turn to mischief. What was the case ? Why.

regard to the distance of the bishop from his fleck
the fact was, there was a railroad absolutely now
forming which would pass through both the towns of
St. Asaph and Bangor, and would bring them as near to each
other as Liverpool and Manchester. He felt deeply the indul•
genes of the House for his long trespass upon its patience at
that late hour of the night, but he did feel this to be a great
and an important question, and that it was absolutely necessary
for the equalisation of the spiritual duties of the country, that it
should be carried. If they would allow this business to be
worked by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners. If they would
allow them to undo the evils of former days, if they vreuld allow
the Church to assert its own rights, and not raise the question
' of the spiritual ur political superintendence of the Church, they
would be best serving the interests of that Church. He felt
that this was a question purely of principle, and, if it were not,
he would with pleasure have voted for the Bill of the Noble
Lord ( Earl Powis), but he felt bound to give it his most de-
;
1 cided, but most conscientious, opposition.
The Bishop of St• DAVID'S would have felt considerable
reluctance to rise on any ordinary occasion, bat he was anxious
to clear up some little difficulty which had been thrown on the
question, and the more so as he thought the vestion had
assumed a new phase since he last addressed them. The Noble
Lord was mistaken if he supposed that any one advocated this
question on any other grounds than those which it could prefer
a, being a part of the Church of England. No such idea as
that had ever existed in the mind of arty individual. But yet
the Church of Wales heti its rights and its privile --es, and if
the Calves Martins of Perth aria the Curragh of KiPare
could put in their claims to consideration, the Church of Wales
had alto an equal right to the protection of the Government.
The Constitution did not recognise that any one individual of
the community should be sacrificed, much less such important
interests as these under consideratien. The inhabitants of
Wales in this matter, as in many others, considered they had
been overlooked and neglected. This was a strong reason why
their Lordships ought to be case ions in dealing with such a
question. He did conceive .t his duty, knee nig these feelings,
to call upon their Lordships to give their assent to the Bill be-
fore the House. He admitted that in the measures founded
on the first report of the Ecclesiastical Cammissioners, it might
be supposed that a benefit was proposed to be conferred on the
Church of Wales; but chat could they think of this Commis-
sion, in their second report, which deprived _ North Wales
of one of her dioceses, and took its revenues and applied
them to support the general chusch funds ? Since he last ad-
dressed the House the state of the question was much
changed, as it was admitted, on the other side of the House,
that the law needed amendment, and that there was an injus-
tice which required to be redressed. He did admit the great
want of spiritual instruction in North Wales, and that if the
surplus funds to be disposed of were applied to improve that
spiritual instruction, great good.might result from the mode in
which it was to be effected. Ile considered the speech of the
Noble Lord (Lord Stanley ), consummate as it was in ability,
a tissue of falsehoods from. beginning to end, having no other
intention than to divert the attention of their Lordships from
the real merits of the ,piestinn. That Noble Lord had endea-
voured to impress on their Lordships' minds that in consenting
to the Noble Lord's (Lord Powis's) Bill they would be up-
setting ail that the Ecclesiastical Commissioners had done. He
(the Bishop of St. David's) admitted the great good that that
Commission had done, but so far from the present Bill
frustrating the labours of that Commission it would carry
them out in the most efficient manner. The measure of the
Noble Lord, so far from running counter to the report of the
Commission, carried out and confirmed that report in its most
material spirit and recommendations lie sincerely believed
that all that had been said respecting the revenues and super-
fieies of North Wales would not bear cut the Noble Lord
( Stanley) in the general statements lie had made respecting
the resources of the church in that district. This was not a
question whether it was more to the benefit of the Church
that she should retain her surplus revenues for the use of
the dioceses in North Wales, or apply those sur-
plus revenues to the spiritual instruction of populous
districts in other parts of tho kingdom.—( Hear. )
He would beg to draw their attention to two or three points,
which he thought likely to make their Lordships think less of
the evils which tne Noble Lord had pointed out as likely to re-
sult from the adoption of this Bill. First, he would ask them,
if the principle which they proposed to carry out with respect
to the dioceses of St. Asaph and Bangor, had worked well
when reduced to practice on other occasions. He denied that
it did, but on the contrary had proved most pernicisus to the
interests of the Church.—(Loud cries of " Question, ques-
tion," amid which the Right Rev. Prelate sat down. )
The Bishop of LONDON felt a deeply-rooted conviction,
which the experience of every year strengthened, that they
were bound to increase the number of bishoprics, and he
thought that if he had the Noble Isere: ( Stanley) as his coad-
jutor for one mouth, he had no doubt of being able to convince
him not only of the desirableness, but of the necessity of in-
creasing the number of bishops.—( Hear, hear.) He should
not have touched upon that part of the subject had nut the line
of argument used by the Noble Lord imposed upon him the
necessity of doing so. He could not consistently with the
opinions he entertained object to the Noble Earl's motion,
but, from the peculiar position in which he stood, he would
abstain from voting altogether.
The Earl of FITZ WILLIAM hoped that the language in
which the Noble Lord had so beautifully clothed his sentiments,
would not dazzle their Lordships, or induce them to lose sight
of the argument which formed the burden of his speech. The
Noble Lord says you must not add to the number of bishops ; but
if the Noble Lord had been a short time in the position which
the Bishop had desired—coadjutor over a population of
I,Boo,ooo—he did not consider that the Noble Lord would talk
of any reduction in the number of 131shmes.—( Hear, heal-. )
Lord LYTTELTON thonght that, with the number of
souls over which the Bishops had superintendence, instead
of a reduction in their number, that snore of them were re-
quired.—( Hear, hear.)
The Earl of CA RNA RYON said that after what had fallen
from the Noble Lord (Earl Fitzwilliarn) and the Right Rev.
Prelates (the Bishops of St. David's and London) he could
see no sufficient reason why they should resist the strong cur-
rent of public opinion which had set in in favour of this mea-
sure. The almost universal feeling of the clergy of Wales,
and the all but unanimous sympathy of the laity, afforded a
great reason for carrying nut the measure before the House ;
and he did not see any reason to apprehend any of that dor-
mant hostility to the Church which was threatened on the in-
troduction of a new Bishop into that House. When he recol-
lected the great disparity which hart arisen between
the temporal and the spiritual Peers, since the re-
volution, he could not but think that the crea-
tion of new Bishops would shortly be a necessity. At
the time the Ecclesiastical Commissioners made their report
and recommended the abolition of one of the Welsh sees, it was
apprehended that no funds could be raised for endowing the
new see of Manchester, but he was glad to find now, from
every side of the House, that there was no similar ground
of fear on that account, and he therefore felt assured that had
the Commissioners been acquainted with the state of things as
they are at present, they never would advise that to which so
much allusion had been made. If the measure was not passed
it was his impression it would leaveau impression of wrong on
thethe nmuimndhserofefthteheppeeotpitlewtoifs Wales; and when he recollected
presented
on this subject, and the
spirit by which the petioners were actuated, he could not
urn a deaf ear to their prayer.
The House then divided, when there appeared :
Contents present 63
Proxies
Non-Content%
Pr0xie5........

that they were called upon to sacrifice the spiritual interests
of thousands for the sake of a paltry saving of 15,000/. a year.
The Ecclesiastical Commission might perhaps have had no
other course than that of recommending the union of these sees
at the time their report was made. But now the case Wa
widely different. England was gorged with wealth, and it WAS
going out with its millions in what he could not but term the
most shameful gambling speculation. His Noble Friend had
earned to himself that which was beyond all price in these (Ia) a
of liberal, or rather he would say, of impious opinions, by stand-
ing up for those principles on which the greatness of this coun-
try had been built, and through which alone the spiritual wel-
fare of the country could he secured. He called upon their
Lordships to support his Noble Friend in this Bill, and to dis-
regard all private opinions, and if it was necessary to
stand between the Ministers and the Crown, not to hesitate
to show the Crown what was the opinion of the hereditary le-
gislators on this important Bill. There was no vote which
would give him more hearty satisfaction than that which he
should give on this occasion, and he earnestly thanked his
Noble Friend for his manly and steadfast perseverance in the
conduct of this measure.
Lord MONTE A GLE felt that he might be considered as
deficient in his duty if he did not express his opinion on this
measure. The Howe was called upon to look at this question
in reference to its efficiency, and in doing so he was bound to
inquire into the efficiency of the episcopal superintendence of
those sees. In 1805 there had been only 520 dissenting
chapels in Wales; in 1810 there were 954, and in 18.32 these
were 1,428. This proved that the members of the Church of
England was not a majority, as it ought tobe, but a small minoroe
Such was the truth, and he was induced to ascribe this inef-
ficiency to the fact, that the parochial system had been sacrificed
to the episcopal system, and the funds had been taken from the
parochial clergy to support the bishoprics. If the endowment
of these sees could claim, as it was represented, high
antiquity, he should be quite ready to assent to
that claim ; but such was not the case, for a
great portion of the endowment was altogether of
modern date. The four archdeaconries of Anelesea were
founded in 1685. The three archdeaconries of Bangor were
endowed at the same time ; and others in different parts of the
country were endowed in 1710, and others as late as 1813.
The endowments of these bishoprics stood on different grounds
from those of many of the bishoprics of England. There was
now no surplus fund in the Ecclesiastical Commission ; and the
question was, not whether they should destroy one of these sees
in order to endow the bishopric of Manchester, but what were
they to do with the surplus. The Commission who recnin •
mended this amalgamation of the two sees had been signed by
the metropolitan of all England, by all the Ecclesiastical mem-
bers of the commission, by the Noble Lord on the Woolsack,
by Sir Robert Peel, and by Mr. Watkins W. Wynne.—
(" Hear, hear," from Earl Powys.) His Noble Friend cheered
at the name of Mr. W. Wynne, but he (Lord Monteagle)
attached the greatest weight to the name of Mr. Wynne,
not only from his personal weight, but from the
great connexion which he had with the principality. He
wished to bring under their notice the parochial condition of
North Wales, in order to lay its state before their Lordships'
consideration. The Noble Lord then read several extracts
from documents which he held in his hand, illustrative of the
parochial state of North Wales, and showing the necessity of an
improvement in the classification and distribution of livings. It
had been said that the Noble Duke on the other side (the
Duke of Wellington) argued the question as one of pounds,
shillings, and pence, hut whether it was so argued or riot,
it was the duty of the Government to make the clergymen
efficient in the discharge of their duties, by adapt-
ing their circumstances to the important duties
they had to discharge. He looked upon the religious insti•u-
tions of the country with as much veneration as any of their
Lordships could do, but it was one thing to love and respect
them, and another to look up to them with superstitious awe
and veneration. It was a matter of indifference whether the
seat of episcopacy was at Bangor or at St. Asaph, so long as
the spiritual interests of the people were properly attended to.
If they were to give way to such petitions as these, there would
be no calculating the difficulties to which it would lead.
Lord BROUGHAM said he was not going to debate the Fill,
for he gave his support to it, on the grounds which his Noble
Friend (the Duke of Wellington) had stated, and on the re-
commendations contained in the Commissioners' Report. The
whole question at present was the second reading of the Bill,
which he would decidedly oppose, and would vote for the
amendment of his Noble Friend.
The Bishop of SALISBURY said the Government mea-
sure for the union of the sees of Bangor and St. Asaph was
founded on the Report of 1835 ; but it ought to be recollected
that the Commissioners afterwards changed their opinion on
the subject, and admitted they had not sufficiently considered
the difficulties of the case before making their report.
The dean and chapter of Christchurch, Oxford, for instance,
possessed the impropriate tithes of seventy parishes, and if the
parochial wants of the diocese were great, he did not see why
they should not call upon the Legislature to pass an Act to
transfer these funds to the wants of the destitute clergy who
might happen to be in the diocese. The principle was the
same. If they interfered with the arrangements and appro-
priation of ecclesiastical revenues in Wales, he did not see ivh)
any other diocese in England should be exempt from such in-
terference.—( Hear, hear.) The number of petitions of those
who opposed the union of those sees were to be accounted for
under the influence of the feeling that if one member of the
household suffered all the rest suffered with it.—(llear, hear. )
It was gratifying to see how the Church had under the greatest
discouragement from princes and statesmen risen to its present
flourishing state. It now numbered twenty-two bishops, and
1,200 clergy, but if this system of interference were tolerated.
he could not indulge in the anticipation that this state of things
would long continue.—( Hear, hear.)
Lord STANLEY opposed the Bill, notwithstanding the re-
spect he had for the Noble Earl who introduced it.—the high
character of the Right Rev. Prelate who had just sat down—
and the public support which it had received out of doors. It
was not a question to be looked to on local grounds, nor on its
temporal bearings, but one which must be regarded as it
affected the spiritual interests of the Establishment.—( Hear,
hear.) Ile would throw aside all the arguments that might
be drawn from the exercise of the Royal prerogative on the
subject, and he contended that it was for the good of the
sees themselves that this union should take place.---( Hear. )
What were the circumstances under which the Commission of
1834 was appointed ? Previous to that time there was through-
out a large portion of the community a growing hostility to-
wards the Church, arising out of a belief that the Church did
not properly peform the spiritual duties attached to it, while
on the other hand, its enemies were exciting some alarm by
pointing to the revenues which the Church received. Now.
these were the circumstances under which the Commission of
1834, was appointed. It was made up of venerable and learned
men, and after due and deliberate investigation it came to the
conclusion that it was advisable that the union of the sees of
Bangor and St. Asaph should be made. Now, he
begged their Lordships 'to remember that this Commission
was appointed by no Government hostile to the Church. The
objects of that commission was to make inquiry into the
dioceses of England, arid to ascertain the amount of the church
revenues. There were other inquiries also, such as cathedral
dues, &c., but on that part of the question he would not enter.
The object, be it observed, was the equalisation of the revenues
en the one hand, and of the duties on the other. How then
could it be said that the principle which actuated the commis-
sion was placed upon an erroneous basis? Well, then, it left
only three dioceses untouched, and the commission remo-
delled or recognized all the other dioceses of the kingdom.
The commission certainly recommended the establishment of two
new sees, but the funds saved by the union of the two sees of
Bangor and St. Asaph were not applied to the establishment
of either of them, but to the augmentation of two other Welch
bishoprics, namely, Landaff and another. But how could the
House complain of the union of those two sees? Did not the
Commission alter and disturb the see of Rochester in a similar
manner? And were not the sees of Bristol and Gloucester
consolidated ? True, they were, and, notwithstanding what
had been stated by some Right Rev. Prelates, he could assure
their Lordships that the result had proved most satisfactory to
the country. Was it wise, then, after these experiments, which
had given so much satisfaction, to irritate or unsettle
the public mind on this subject ? It was admitted that the
alteration u ould not stop here. It was intended hereafter
if this measure were carried to make a gradual increase to the
number of bishops who occupied seats in that House.—y'
no.") Noble Lords might say no, but he told them that such
was the opinion out of doors, and he warned their Lordships
not to excite an hostility in the country towards the Church,
which, if it did not eventually destroy, must moot assuredly
prove a very serious injury to the Church. Was it wise then
at the present moment to press this measure? Would it not
endanger the seats of all the Right Rev. Prelates who held
seats in that House? Let them pause then before they took
a step which was likely to lead to a result so disastrous,
granting that there was a necessity at the present
time for augmenting the number of Bishops, which he was
not prepared. to do, he should still be inclined to think that the
consolidation of the union of the sees of Bangor and St.
Asaph ought not to be disturbed. The two united together
were 369,450, being very little more than half the average of
the whole of the dioceses, which was 558,000 souls. The
number of benefices was 262, but this was not a fair average,
because the poolation in these two benefices was not all equal
to the population of benefices of other dioceses. One half
of the population, too, of these benefices, it should be
remembered, were Dissenters from the Established Church.
He should like, then, to see any Noble Lord arguing for the
division of the two sees, and the retention of Exeter or of Lin-
coln as one diocese. Whether it was from the want of suffi-
cient episcopal superintendence, or other causes, the labours of
the dioceses of St. Asaph and Bangor were lighter than those
of almost all the other dioceses in the coentry. He quite
agreed in what fell from a Noble Lord the other night, that
they could not separate Wales from England, but that they
must consider the two countries as identical; and he should
conceive that the best mode of distributing the whole of the
episcopal staff of the whole country, so as to equalise the
dirihiatainleessia.tnd the revenues of all the sees. If the principle were
to be adogoupoidtte.dlosloetf considering the two countries as separate,
i,4sfund,Throwingthat
mthinoetrroee appeared,th f
riot
m thegained,
statements
tfeomr
eNnArtasl Wales gavet,he
eccle-
siastical more
thwiassthinc
rec-
tories, which gave 4,0001., into
,itnt7ost6hoei c.omazotnhefund, there would
favour
rueos fofWtahleessianebcaularneceof
be a gain of 8,`.1801.
an application to the public fund 'for '3,ooo'rnasoree.venW7h

Majority against the Bill ....... ; .. 32
Their Lordships then adjourned.

(HOUSE OF COMMONS. May 2.
The SPEAKER, took the chair at Four o'clock.
THE DUDDESTON A'D NECHELLS IMPROVE-

AIENT (No. 2) BILL.
This Bill, on the motion of Alr. SPOONER, was read a
second time, after a few words of opposition from Mr. Muntz.
RAILWAY COMMITTEES.
During the time of private business, Mr. APGEACHY,
who formed one of the Committee on Group X, stated that
since the morning he had ascertained that he had a pecuniary
interest in one of the railways of the group on which he sat, and
he therefore beggt d to be excused any further attendance on the
Committee. The Hon. Gentleman was accordingly dis-
chag RAILWAY.sri;
Sir G. GREY ed a considerable
Cand
rßt:Noerr‘dvaAct
LLe nELdma r NceTs presented
numberred from
of petitions an
CORNWALL
in favour of the Cornwall and Devon
Railway Bill.
BRISTOL AND DORCHESTER RAILWAY.
On the motion of Mr. AIU.NDY, this Bill was read a first
time.

HARROGATE RAILWAY.
On the motion of Mr. BOWES, thib Bill was read a second
ime.

potitiona against this Bill.
NEILSTON DIRECT
DEPTFORD IMPROVEMENT BILL.
GLMAr.
RAILIk AY.
s GB AO RWN, EBBAYR pRt•
He nAt eDa

This Bill was read a second time.
BRISTOL AND EXETER RAILWAY.

On the motion that this Bill be read a second time,
Mr. G. BAN KES said that he would take that opportunity
of presenting a petition from Lady Georgiana Fane, and
others, arid from several of her tenants, against the passing of
this Bill. He believed that this Bill was iu a peculiar po-
sition. It had been taken into consideration by the Com-
mittee previous to the second reading. It was certainly an
anomaly in the proceedings of Parliament, that the principle in
the details of a Bill should be decided upon before it had
been approved upon by the House at large. He should there-
fore beg the especial consideration of the House to the petition
which he had now to present, which prayed that the petitoner
might be heard before the Committee personally of by counsel.
The SPEAKER said that the plan which the Hon. Mem-
ber ought to adopt would be to move for the reference of the
petitions to the Select Committee. There would be three
clear days before the Ist of June, between the decision of the
Committee and the consideration of the Bill in the House.
Mr. BAN KES acted on this suggestion, and the petitions
were referred to the Select Committee. —{ It will be recollected
by our readers, that in our report of the proceedings tf the Se-
lect Committee on the Bristol and Exeter Railway Bill
it was stated by Mr. Merrewether, Counsel
for some of the petitioners against the Bill, that
the Bill had not been read a second time in the House of
Commons, and that the Committee were competent to take
evidence in favour or against the Bill, though they were un-
able to exclude the prayer of any petitioner, and of course to
decide on the preamble. The Chairman, the Ho-
nourable J. 11. Liddell, and the Committee, taking
this view of the matter, the further consideration of the
preamble was deferred in order that the Bill might be read a
second time in the Commons, and that they might proceed
legitimately to the consideration of its'merits
AIAYNOOTH.
Colonel Conolly, Mr. Thornely, Mr. Broadley, Lord North-
land, and other Hon. Members, presented petitions against the
grant to Maynooth.
Mr. Alderman HUMPHERY presented a petition from
the parish of St. George's, Southwark, signed by 600 persons,
against the Maynooth grant.
Sir R. INGLIS presented petitions against the proposed,
or any grant to Maynooth, from places in the counties of Cum.
berland, Essex, Gloucester, and from the counties of Down,
Gott, and Done al, in Ireland.
JEWISH DISABILITIES BILL.
Sir It. INGLIS presented a petition from a large number
of persons in Shropshire against the Jewish Disabilities Bill.
UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD.
Sir R. INGLIS presented a petition from the Chancellor
and Members of the University of Oxford, praying that no
alteration might he made in their Act.
Sir J. TROLLOPE prose, ted a petition from Holbeach,
in Lincolnshire, praying for a change in the Insolvent Debtors'
Bill, with a view to the better recovery of debts under 2 1.;
also several petitions against the grant to Maynooth.
Colonel ACTON presented a petition from the parish of
Shillelagh—(Laughter)—in the county of Wicklow, against
the grant to Maynooth.
Mr. FERRAND presented petitions from various parts of
England and Ireland against the grant.
Mr. HAMILTON presented twenty petitions from various
places in Ireland against the grant.
Mr. DIVETT presented similar petitions from Exeter.
Mr. BRIGHT presented thirteen petitions against the grant.
Lord RENDLESHAM presented similar petitions from
Suffolk.
Colonel SIBTHORP presented a number of petitions from
Wales to the same effect.
tacti
tn against ti3h ghrada n tbet to
nMayn forcedo o t
Mr. DUNCOAIBE presented a petition from Carlisle
ill
tpheeti
House
es complained
against the
hth• relughe

voice of the country ; also several petitions, praying that the semination of error. That was not a temporary excitement, it
arrestment of wages should be done away with. was a deep-seated feeling, likely to last for some considerable
Mr. DUNCAN presented a petition from Ferfarshire I time. He would vent tire to say tort that feeling would not be
against the grant to Maynooth, extinct at the period of the text election ; and his own opinion
Mr. GODSON presented a petition from eeriain turnpike was, that if the Hou-e forced through this measure now, and
road trustees, praying to be heard by counsel against the Berks made it law, it would be swept out of the statute-book before
and Hampshire Railway. the new Parliament had long commence:l its labour.--(" Hear,
NEW ZEALAND. hear," and ironical cheering.) What was the language of the
Sir R. INGLIS said, that notwithstanding that he had Irish hierarchy? They thought the boon a centemottble one,
seen that certain communications had taken place between and he would quote the language of Mr.
t t'thinnell to thew
her Majesty's Government and the authorities of New Zea- the estimation in which he hole: it. ( The Hon. Gentleman
land upon the subject of a notice that an Hon. Member had then read the letter of .11r. hinnell, dated the loth of
upon the paper, which bad induced that Hon. Member to , April, accepting the ievitetimi to a public dinner at Cork. )
withdraw that notice, still, seeing that Right lion. Gentleman It was evident fmu that letter that the Finn. and Learned
the Secretary of State for the Colonies in his place, he would Member for Cork st as d termined on seeking for repeal, and
put to him, now in public, a question he had preeieusly asked would make use of every concession that that House might
him in private, namely, whether the communiemit re that had ; make to further his ate-es. Ile ri .:rated being obliged
taken place were of such a nature as to alter the posittorr pose the Right Hen. Gentlemen below him, but he felt it a
the missionaries of that colony with this country; and also duty to do so. He opposed the measure before, he opposed it
the position of the natives of the colony and the New Zealand 1 that night, end he would of pose it to the end. He felt it a duty
Company with this country, and that of those parties with each which he owed to the Protestants of that count' y, meet solemnly
other? and earnestly to protest r.gaiost the tneasure.—(‘• Hear, Lear,'
Mr. HOPE said he felt it necessary to give some explana- and cries of " Divide, divitie.")
Con with respect to what had passed last night. He d d not I The SPEAKER asked the Hon. 'Member for Ashton-under-
pretend to say what had passed between the Noble Lord under Lyue what were the terms of les motion ?
whom he served and the Hon. Member for Liskeard. In the Mr. HINDL EY —I :nom- that you, Sir, do leave the chair
first place, the withdrawal of the notice of the Honourable this dry six month.—( Nhouts of laughter )
Member was wholly unsolicited on the yea of her Celouel BT ORP secended the motion.
Majesty's Goternment, who were about to justify their Colonel VERNER rose, amidst li.ud cries of "Divi'!e,
conduct with respect to the missionaries. Freon the manner in divide." He said he regretted that the Right Hon. Gentle-
which it reached the press, it would appear that the measure man had not taken time to collect the opinion of the Prwestiirits
was more fully before the Government than was the case. lof this c-un'ry before he pr Reed the present measuni. Ile
The fact was this, that the Noble Lord at the head of the Moto, hoped the Right lion. Baron, t would give the country an op-
nial Department heard from the New Zealand Company that- port undy expreeing their real sentiments upon this measure.
an arrangement would he submitted to lion for Mr. It DDIN GT( Ohl solid titan as the Gallant :eel had
his consideration. He answered that whenever auch an chosen to speak for the Protestants ef Inland, he (Mr. Red-
arrangement should be teoposed in a proper manner, he dingtnit). although a Roman Catiitle, must erotest against his
world give it his consideration. No such alteration had yet been deelatatien as exer song the "pinion of the people '-f Ireland.
made or decided on with respect to the New Zealand Come In the die net in which he resided, there were several Con-
pany. He Fhoul(!, however, state that there was no compru- servatives who were in fsvour of and petitioned for the mea-
mise whatever on the part of her Majesty's Government. sure—( Hear, hear)—and the wish of these gentlemen was that
In answer to a question put by Lord DUNCAN, further remedial measures might he introduced.
Sir R. PEEL said that his Noble Friend at the head of the Sir R. PEEL said that whatever the opinions of individual
Commisston of the Woods and Forests had a Bill in prepare- Members might be, he did not thick it was the wish of any
tion containing certain salutary regulations. He wished the party to divide on this occasion —(Cries of " Hear,
Noble Lord would postpone his question until the resuming of hear.") The general understanding was that they would go
business after Whitsuntide. into Committee ri the Bill to-night and report progress. He
THE BRAZILS. hoped flea the lion. Member for Kent would not thirds
Mr. LABOUCHERE said that he saw in the public papers he was guilty of any disrespect in declining to accede to his
a statement that the Brazilian Government had recommended proposition.—( Hear.) He felt bound to say that, with great
the Brazilian merchants to impose 20 per cent. on cotton goods, respect to the Hon Member, he was firmly determined to
as long as their sugar was distinguished in duty from other persevere with his Bill.—(Bear. ) He had postponed the de-
colonial sugars. His question to the Right Hon. Gentleman bate on the Bill until Friday, because the Right Hon. Gen-
was, whether the Government had received any communica- denten the Member for Oxford, and other Hon. Members,
tion on this subject, asd whether such information affirmed thought that the measure could not be properly discussed
or denied the statement? if it had net been postponed to that day. The Protestants of
Sir R. PEEL raid he felt confident that no efficial information Ireland were, he believed, in favour of the measure, and he
had been received on the subject to which the bight Hon. Gen- was justified in saying that it would engender kindly
tleman referred. 'lf the Right Hon. Gentleman had given him Hear, he.-,r.) He did not say that the
notice of the question, he would have been prepared to answer whole Protestant body were in favour of the measure.
it ; but, as far as he knew, no such official information had been He held in his hand a declaration signed by the Protestant and
received. Roman Catholic inhabitants of the county of Galway—that
HOLYHEAD HARBOUR AND RAILWAY. declaration stated that the undei signed had heard with greet
Mr. HUME put a question (as we understood it) relative satisfaction of the proposition of her Majesty's Government,
to the sale of Holyhead Harbour for railway purposes. Folk- for increasing the annual grant voted by Parliament to the
stone Harbour had been sold, and he feared that all the liar- Royal College of Maynooth, and that they felt the measure
hours would eventually rivet the same fate. was calculated to improve the social condition of the Reman
Mr. YORKE replied that he thought the question a proper Catholic clergy in Ireland, and therefore to improve the soeial
one, and would have the informality erased from the Bill. condition of the country. This declaration was signed by
Mr. COLLETT wished to ask the Right lion. Gentleman, thirty-four magistrates, Protestaat and Roman Catholic, by
the Chancellor of the Exchequer, respecting a motion which several of the clergy, Vea4ed by the Roman Catholic Bishop—
stood on the book for that day. The Right Honourable Gen- it was signed by Mr. Daly, and by several Protestant pro-
tleman intended to add the name of Mr. Milues Gaskell to the prietors—in fact, by the principal Protestant proprietors of the
five members already named, as a Committee on the Chester county. In fact, among the proprietors, who were chiefly Pro-
and Holyhead Railway ; did he mean that the Committee testants, there existed, he would not say an universal, but
should consist of six members, or that Mr. Gaskell should be certainly a very general sentiment of approval of the measure
substituted for another Honourable Member ? which had been proposed by her Majesty's Government. He
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said lie did was perfectly justified in saying that in treland there was
not intend to persevere in the motion. much less opposition manifested on the part of the Church and
SCOTCH BANKING, AND SCOTCH POOR-LAWS. the Presbyterians of than country than in Fngland. He
Mr. FOX MAULE wished to know when the second would not set the example of entering into a discussion of
reading would take place of the Scottish Banking Bill, and the principles of the Bill, bat he would still retain the opinion
the Scottish Poor-law Bill ? which he had already expressed.
Sir ROBERT PEEL said it would be necessary to take Lord J. RUSSELL asked if it was the intention of his
some votes of supply on Monday, but he hoped to move the Hon. Friend. and these who acted with him, to take a division
second reading of those Bills before the holidays. on every part of the Bill in Committee; and, if so, he would
SCHISM IN THE CHURCH. be glad if he stated what parts of the Bill they were?
Mr. MANGLES said be had a petition to present respecting Sir R. INGLIS said that he was not aware of any intention
the difference which had lately occurred amongst the clergy of on the part of any Members to take the sense of the House on
the Church of England. He understood that it was Lot any other clauses than those to which amendments were con-
competent for him to present this petition, but he wished to templated by his Hon. Friend (Mr O'Brien) and the Hon.
found aquestion upon it. The petitioners deeply regretted the Member for Hull (Mr. Hemmer ). He felt that having been
strife ants discord which at present existed in the Church of indulged by the House for a considerable length of time, n
England, in consequence of an attempt to revive obso- former occasions, on the pi inciples of the 4111, it would nut be
lute ceremonies. They stated that the di-putea had right for him to take up their attention a third time.
arisen in consequence of conscientious scruples entertained by Sir ABR 10K E that though he should be sorry to
both parties. Many of the clergy of the country considered intrude himself on the House, yet he wished to say that, in the
it their duty to revive certain ceremonies, and wear certain north of Engiand, there was no distinction between the Roman
dresses which had not been in use in those parts of sae country Catholics and Protestants. Piey enjoyed one advantage
On the other hand, the parishioners said that neither she other parts of Ireland could not boast of, for they were not
nor their fathers were accustomed to these ceremonies, and cursed with th agitation which the south of Ireland had been
they strongly and strenuously objected to their introduction. convulsed with ; and as keg as they continued so, the same
The result had been that a great deal of bad feeling had been kind foaling would exist bet ween the Roman Catholics and Pro-
created. • 'lhe petitioners prayed that some measure testants in the north of England. It was his anxious wish that
might be introduced to restore harmony. The question a sound and liberal education should be extended to all classes,
he wished to put was, whether it was the intention of her but as the constitution of this country was founded on Protes-
Majesty's Government, either by Act of Parliament, or by tent principles, he did not see how the Government could con-
means of the dignitaries of the Church, to take any measures sistently with those principles maintain an establishment at
to set these disputed points at rest? Maynooth for the purl tne of propagating the Roman Ca.holic
Sir ROBERT PEEL—I do recollect, Sir, that the Hon. religion, The education there must have a tendency to narrow
Gentleman, several days since, mentioned this subject. I and contract the mind, and to cultivate the 'nest intolerant
am not prepared to give an assurance with respect to any in- notions of the infallibility of the Roman Catholic doctrines.
terference on the part of the Executive Government with re- Upon these grounds he opposed the measure.
spect to the matter to which the Hon. Gentleman has referred. The House then divided :
In answer to a question from an Hon. MEMBER on the For going into Committee l6O
Opposition side of the House, For Mr. Hindley's amendment 52
Mr. MACKINNON said that in answer to the question Majority for going into Committee
put by the Hen. Member, as to whether he intended to brine The House then went into
on the Bill.
forward his measure relative to interment in towns, he had Co On the proposal of the first clause,
say that, after the assurance given him by the Right Hon. Sir R. INGLIS submitted as an amendment to the first
Baronet at the head of the Government, that a similar men- clause, which created the perpetual incorporation of thetrustees
sure would be brought. forward at an after period, he should of the College of Maynooth, that the power vested in the
postpone it: He would rather that the Bill were brought in trustees might be placed in the hands tif that body which had
by the Government than by a private individual, and under been created by the Act of last session, namely, the Charitable
these circumstances he should postpone the bringing forward of Bequests Act. He would leave it to her Majesty's Govern-
his measure. ment to consider whether they would accede to that amend-
ment, but he would not give the House the trouble of
dividing on it.
Sir R. FEEL said that he should inform his Right Hon.
Friend that he could not acquiesce with his propesition, for he
(Sir R. Inglis) did not propose that the endowment should
less, but merely proposed that those employed to regulate Cat
endowment should be the parsons who were lately employed
under the Charitable Bequests Act. The reason he differed
from his Right Hon Friend was, because he apprehended that
the duties of the trustees of the Charitable Bequests Bill, and
those under the Maynooth Bill were not such as would war-
rant their identification. His great arid principal objection to
the adoption of this course was, that the adoption of sueh a
measure would be an unworthy and underhand implication of
suspicion.—( Hear, hear ) He found, upon reference to cer-
tain documents, that the trustees of the College of Maynooth,
appointed by the Irish Parliament, had been confirmed by the
Imperial Legislature.—( Hear, hear.) Nay, more, he found
that the Irish Lord Chancellor, and the Master of the Hells,
who, under the Irish Act, held the offices of Directors of the
College, were removed by the English Parliament, and placed
in the position of Visitors merely, and the board of superin-
tendenet made exclusively Catholic, On those grounds, then,
he should say, that he could not be induced to assent to this
amendment.
The question was then put oe the amendment, and negae
Lived without a division.
Two other clauses were then agreed to without opposition.
Upon reading the next clause, that in reference to the mort-
main laws,
Sir JOHN HANMER rose to move the omission of the
words which limit the trustees of Maynooth College in taking
any real property with which it may be desired voluntarily to
endow them. The reason he moved this amendment was
because he was unwilling to see the Government burthening
itself with those troublesome obsolete ecclesiastical laws.
( Hear, hear.) He could see no reason why the Roman Ca-
tholics should be deterred from pursuing their own system of
education, by those shadows of old feudal laws, known by the
name of the laws of inert:nein. The Hon. Baronet then re-
ferred to the statutes of mortmain, passed in the reigns of
Richard 11., Henry VIII . Charles 1., and George 11., and
contended that none of the provisions of those statutes ap-
plied to Ireland, and said he could not concur in the pro-
visions of the clause retaining those of mortmain. He had
promised that he would not detain the House by entering on
the general policy of the Bill; but he thought till. was such
an important question that it warranted his calling the at-
tention of the House to it
Mr. T. B. C. n; MITH said. that the Honourable
Member for Hull had ennewhat misrepresented the sta-
tute as it at present stottd, for by the Ist and 2d of Geo. 111.
the Government were empowered to dispense with the law of
mortmein. He admitted the fact as stated by his Honourable
Friend ( Sir J. Hanmer ) that a men might sell a whole town
ship and bequeath the ineney to the College of Maynoo h. It
might be so, but the Hon. Member must he aware that
property in land and sums in money were very different things.
The cases did not afford a parallel. If a particular circum-
stanee required the setting aside of that writ, all that was re-
quired of the Roman Catholic College, was to make out a case
to the Government, which would exercise its discretion as to
whether they would be allowed to exceed the limitations fixed
by statute. By sueh means they might be allowed to obtain
arid to hold an unlimited amount of property. On these
grounds, and seeing no necessity for the amendment of the
Honourable Member, he should feel it his duty to oppose it.
Mr. HINDLEY hoped that the Hoe, Member would not
divide the House upon it.
Lord J. MANNERS could have wished that the Right
Hon. Gentleman the Attorney-General for Ireland had given
some reason for limiting the amount of landed property to the
College of Maynooth to 3,004. lie could not see the prin-
ciple on which this restriction was based, neithsr could h • un-
derstand why there should be a fixed standard at all. He
thought that as Oxford and Cambridge were unfettered by this
law, Maynooth should be just as liberally dealt with. He
would give his willing support to the amendment of his Hon.
Friend.
Mr. ROEBUCK, in a few words, which were almost in-
audible, opposed the amendment.
Sir R. H. ISGLIS was of opinion that the existing ad-
vantage of the Church of Ireland should not be interfered with.
In this opinion he was opposed by his Hon. Friend, who hail
no desire to exclude his Catholic fellow-subjects from those ad-
vantages. The universities of England were surely entitled
to the preference, they being the nurseries of Protestantism.
He did net hold maintaining the Church in the same sense as
the Right Hon. Baronet, for he ( Sir R. H. Inglis) held that
maintaining the United Church of England and Ireland meant
mintainitig it in all its endowments, and in all its privileges.
He should oppose the amendment.
Sir R. PEEL hoped that he would be allowed to trouble the
House with one or two words on this subject. An Hon. Mem-
ber had asked him whether he should prefer that the College of
Maynooth should be gifted with land or motley. As a mere
matter of policy he (Sir H. Peel) should considerably prefer
the latter. He thought that as there must be some limit
3,0(101. a year was a fair one. He did not propose 3,000/.
because of any jealousy to Maynooth, but he thought it right
to see how that sum should be managed, and if that sum were
well-managed, the Crown could extend the power of holding
more. He thought that the question relating to the statute of
mortmain would be more conveniently dealt with at a future
period.
Mr. REDINGTON said he would oppose the motion of the
Hon. Member for Hull, not because he was riot of opinion
that Roman Catholics should be left unfettered to leave landed
property to Maynooth, if they thought fit, but because those
who were most interested in the present grant did not wish
that question to he introduced incidentally. •
Lord POLLINGTON said he voted against the measure,
but he would vote for the motion of the Hon. Member for
Hull, on the ground of leaving the Roman Catholics at perfect
liberty to endow a College for themselves.
After a few words from Sir R INGLIS,
Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD said that he would vote
for the Hon. Member for Hull, on the ground that there
should be no obstacle to endowments upon the voluntary
principle.
Sir J. HANMER replied. He could not well see the reason
of the Right Hon Baronet objecting to his proposal, after hav-
ing voted for and carried the Charitable Bequests Act last year.
No great evils had befallen the State by reason of the endow-
ments of Cambridge and Oxford, which had risen to their pre-
sent greatness in consequence of voluntary endowments. Any
person who travelled through the countries bordering on the
Mediterranean, or in the Peninsula, must be aware that the

lands in the hands of the monasteries were much better culti-
vated than the lands which were held by lay persons.
Lord CLIVE would support the motion of the Hon. Nlein"
'moth
ber for Hull. He thought that as the College of Alay
could hold land imlir.Jctly, by means of the intervention of
trustees, it would be much better if it were allowed to hold it
direeCy.—( H, hear.
The galleryear ) was then cleared for a division, but none took
place, the amendment having h-en withdrawn.
Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN moved the sutstitution of the
word " thirty" for the w. three"
clause. He thought that his tont-ton was different f, om that of
the tins. Mernh.r for Hull. He wished to give the Roman
Catholics of I eland an opportunity of acting on the vttlorearY
principle, which they seemed to approve of. He did not agree
tv;th the Hon. Member for Montrese, that his motion,
a.detd. •• !rad ,r-ie.ff-.n mit of don'ts.
Mr. HUME recommended the withdrawal
in the 31d line of the 2d
mrnt, because it would excite unnecessary alarm. Beth ought
thepuhlic had ~.lroarly greatly the nature a he Rill.
Sir R. INGLIS' thought the Hon. Member was nutidd:ing
oven the Government, an ' would not there ore soPlvrt ban.
He th,tight the Hon. Member would at once withdrew the
the
clause and allow them to proceed to the consideration of
of the areenfi-
ot'rer clause .
SMYTFIE thnueht it. was very absurd in a State to
tolerate and even to rocegni.,e rebgion, and yet proscribe
gioos munifi,eneo and lim.t its extent. —( Hear.)
fter a few words from fir. I) NI: BY,
Mr. HUME said he had been quite misunderst,,od. If Hoe.
Gentiem,,,, asked him what he would do if lie had the poWekti
of remodelling the three k•ngdorn. s, he did not think he %glut
he hound to tell thero—( A laugh )—they v ‘'re there tolegis:a
upon a particular subi,ct. Some we-e ro,-re alarmed the,
Pretended increase of Po-ery—he e,e,tessed he tit no of
at
nil on the subject. Some Hon Members had spa" °C wan
of gratitud, .be the part 6f the Irish t,;(c he did no.
think the Irish people could be expected to go down ermAthhetil
knees and thank 'hem 'or so small a fa,our. they ha" lie
little reason to express grattode for what. had been lollet
ithy
regretted that more Christian feeling and Christian syra
for our Roman Catholic fellow-countrymen had not been to
generally shown.
Mr. 110ERUCK wished to know whether the goo. ADM.
ber for Nortlrimptoushire would divide the
Mll‘use. 'd by
r. S. O'BRIN sai, hat atter wht had been Sal
the Hon. Member d for thet University of a
Oxford, he did 11t
think he would. The Hon. Gentleman seemed to have grea
anxiety to 1%-oceed with the Bill. legs'
Sir R. IT,IGLI a id he intended to give every fair an-
timate opposition to the measure, but none other.—( n"
Mr. Pd reminded the House that e° to
Member—that no one or: his side of the House asked hi°

withdraw tip amendment. MeW
Mr. S. O'BRIEN said he understood what the Hon• the
her for Dundalk meant, and would divide the House 00
amendment.
Tha ficuse then divided, when there uppeared—
For the amendment ............... 33
Against, it
Mr. against the amendment
Mr. LAW, who had a motion on the paper for OP, to
,bleo

MAYNOOTH.
Sir R. PEEL presented petitions from Rochdale, and places
n Bedfordshire, in favour of the grant to Maynooth.
Mr. H UNIE presented two petitions from Arbroath against
the grant to Maynooth. The petitioners regarded all State
assistance to religious denominations as unjust, unnecessary,
and impolitic, and on that ground they prayed the House not
to pass this measure.
Mr. Ewart, Mr. Lawson, and Mr. Srnollet presented peti-
tions against the Bill.
Petitions against the grant were presented by Lord Claude
Hamilton, by Mr. D'lsraeli, by Mr. Hastie, Captain Pechell,
Mr. S. Crawford, Mr. C. Bruce, Colonel Fox, Lord Ebring-
ton, Mr. Forbes, Sir C. Lemon, and Mr. Denison (Surrey).
On the motion that the Speaker do leave the Chair,
Mr. HINDLEY said that in rising to object to the Speaker
leaving the chair, he was only discharging a painful duty, and
one which he undertook individually, without concert with any
other Member of that House. He felt great regret that the
Government thought it consistent with their duty to go n
with the present measure. What was it doing in England ?
It was throwing the whole country into convulsions. It would
raise the fires of religion, which would not easily be destroyed.
—(Laughter.) It would make the next election a polemical
arena, where the religion of every man would be taken into
consideration. The Right Hon. Baronet must be aware that
this measure had excited such dissatisfaction that at least
1,200 individuals had been induced to come up from the coun-
try, and spend several days in the metropolis, to protest
against the measure. As the Right Hon. Gentleman the
Member for Newaik said, the country was against the measure.
Let not the House imagine that they were wiser than all Eng-
land—(Laughter)—or that, because they happened to have
secured their seats in Parliament, they were to act in contra-
diction to the feelings of the people of the whole country. He
would repeat it, that nothing could be more opposed to the
feelings—or the prejudices, if they would—of the Protestants of
England than this measure. He would ask, if this measure had
created so much ill-feeling and confusion in England, did it at
the same time effect any good in Ireland ? ( Laughter.) He
had heard it said that a great deal should be done to conciliate
Ireland. He would admit it, and he would be ready to sacrifice
everything but principle to do so. But can it be believed that
this measure would have that effect ? He denied that it would,
and in order to prove his assertion, let him read a letter which
had recently appeared in the public prints, from the
pen of the Right Reverend Dr. Higgins, a Rcman Ca-
tholic Bishop in Ireland.—(Loud cries of " Oh, oh,"
order and laughter, amidst which the Hen. Member attempted
to persevere, but he would not be permitted. He then pro-
ceeded to read extracts from the letter as if he were continuing
his speech.) He then went on to say that he did believe that
the last week had created a feeling in favour of the repeal of the
union in England, and he felt convinced th.t the I iisseetere
would rather consent to that measure than that ireired shontd
be made prosperous at the expense of England. 11.. wield not
trespass further upon the time of the House ; but if any lie...
Member would second his proposition, that the Speaker do not
leave the Chair for the purpose of going on with this Bill in
Committee—(Great laughter)—he would divide the House
upon it.—(Hear, hear.)
Colonel SIBTHORP said if he could conceive that there
would be the least chance of the Hon. Member opposite suc-
ceeding in his motion he would second it, but he did not think
his doing so would have the least effect.—( Laughter.) He
had been accustomed to judge of men by their ac'ions, and
therefore he should say that the Right Hon. Baronet at the
head of her Alajesty's Government had not shown himself a
practical Protestant in this instance, for he did not, as
he was bound to eo as a Minister of the Crown,
use 'his best efforts to uphold the Christian religion.
If the measure was so important, why should he delay its third
reading until the 19th of May? He would have entertained a
better opinion of the Right Hon. Baronet, if he had gone on
with it without the slightest delay. How would the Right Hon.
Baronet stand with the elections, if he were to dissolve Parlia-
ment 7—( Hear, hear.) On one of the most important quese
tions the Right Hon. Baronet was forced to have recourse
to the support of men who were only seeking
to undermine him.—(Laughter.) He did not blame them for
it, but he did not like truckling.—( Renewed laughter.) Those
were days when people thought but of themselves:, but the
Right Hon. Gentleman would go anywhere for a friend.—
( Continued laughter.) But why did he not ask the country
bow they liked his policy? He came into power on very
different professions. He was then for Church and State, and
for the agricultural interest. But how would the Right Hon.
Baronet be now received in Marti-lane?—( Great laughter.)
The first quality in a Minister was consistency. The Right
Hon. Gentleman professed himself their protector, supporter,
and friend, but he took them in and deceived them. This was
only the first of a series of measures which he had in contempla-
tion. He should say, with deep regret, that he had no con-
fidence in any party ; he did not know where to look for any-
thing on which he could ground any hopes for the safety and
honour of the country.—( Laughter.) He hoped he had in-
dependent feeling enough to vote against any men who showed
such inconsistency. He should tee very wrongly upon any
question that would affect the maintenance of the Protestant
Church. They had given their defiance to the opinions and
feelings of the people of this country, and if the Minister of the
Crown should forget the duties he owed to one with whom he
was connected in council and advice, then the sooner that
Minister was removed from that situation which lie so badly
filled the better. The Right Hon. Gentleman would fied him
on that, as on all other occasions upon this question, opposed
to him.
Mr. PLUMPTRE said, that if the Government were dis-
posed to force this measure through the House they had it in
their power to do so. Out of all the measures which had come
under the notice of Parliament, since he had the honour of a
seat in that House, he should say that there had been no mea-
sure, viewed in all itslbearings and probable consequences if it
should pass into a law, that he had viewed with so much re-
pugnance. The movement which had been made by the Go-
vernment was a most unhappy one. It was unhappy, because
if they were now to withdraw this measure, it would cause
much agitation in Ireland. But that state of things would
net be so unhappy, as would he called into existence by the
passing of this Bill. He had always viewed the matter in that
light, and whenever he had opposed this grant it was on this
ground that he did so, and it was en the same ground that he
opposed it still. Those were the grounds on which the people
of this country opposed the measure. They distinguished be•
tween truth and error, and in that light they viewed it. They
protested against error, and they were arranged on the side of
truth, and they said in their inward conscience that they could
not consent to allow the public money to be used in the dis-

the 10th and II th clauses, said that the • Bill ens' l
trustees to receive any amount of personal property. and age
quantity of landed property. The remaining clauses aesed
Bill principally rested on the foundation of the Conseil
en deo
Fund. He proposed to negative all the clauses deP the
upon the Consolidated Fund, but to take no division on
intermediate clauses.
On clause 4 being proposed,
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that in line She erenkitre;
pose an alteration. If they would lock at clause 7,
°would
provision was made for the Dunboyne students,
84theyfor the
en
observe that provision was made for attendance, e" wedge
se ii students, whereas, in the clause now under the ceideot,
raticn of the Ilouse, provision was only made for the preeto was
vice-president, princisals, and vice-principals. The sn our
limited to 6,0001., which was to be at the disposal of theseords,
tees. It had been suggested to him to add the selse
Whereas it is expedient that provision be made for the cipal•
ries of president, vice-president, principal, and vicViews.
in said colleges, and to extend the attendance and other 11
sarles tbe supplied for their se." • esti
fer-
Aftero a few words from Mr.o he
LAW in approval of the
of the amendment, ueut the
Mr. PLUMPTRE said that much had been said au; think
poverty of the Roman Catholic clergy, but he did nne seeh
that Roman Catholics themselves would admit anlre sof!
poverty-they would repudiate the imputation• ExPeenrsilegheat
beautiful churches were everywhere building ttiedj on 6
Ireland. In Waterford, 70,000/. had been eaPen •
Wei
cathedral. r
Mr. HUME would ask the Honourable Member fee cesa•
why grants were made to the Universities of (Word anergy ?
bridge, to the Protestant Di-centers, and the Scottish then be
If the Hon. Gentleman would answer this question,
_sot in
( Mr. Hume) would give the Hon. Gentleman at"-
would
the question he had asked claw
SIBTIIOUP trusted this deteetable
allowed to pass.-( Great laughter. ) be Finn.
no
Mr. WILLIAMS said he had always found that for
Member fir Kent was ready to vote money
everything except the grant to Nlaynooth. The•vote per
to the Bishop of Exeter, for his expenses in visiting,
aloe,
tion of his diocese-the vote of 11,000/. to the clergl°,loholiese
nominations in the colonies-the vote to the Jews' by tbe
pperte"
Wesievans, and others in Jamaica-all were su
Hon. Member for Kent. -0210°
Mr. WYSE made some observations, which were
in the gallery. Oent •
Mr. FERRAND said the Right Honourable so 0
at the head of the Government had stated that it;
p
ped;ent , to pass this measte eas a meetiure
of this ,
to Ireland -w eat had been the result se 0, lied
most lavi notiso.
Hr. S. O'Br en hail. in the Conciliation, , ":e of 0,0"
about an Americen fleet sweeping the Chanoet, fee (tirer
third of the British army deserting the Queenl would ha
Ferranti) trusted that her Majesty's Govern:oer' mosee ilia
the decency not. to force this Bill through Ceen?; le kil.
night. He believed tint during the Whit'n- enovene
general meetings of the constituencies would bed to Os°
"1- ledge • ents•
'Ray Members had come into that House Pe onstiflx
that
their seats a hen called upon by a majority of we're'
stood
Were they ready to redeem that pledge? He tten-,`,.is Ras
the Hoontir.tble Member otposite (Mr. Start:ol"i
pared to do so, ant this did him honour. by a dr„
Mr. ST NSFIELD said he had been waited upon d es,
mutation, and he had eerta;.nly stated that he had felt ~Le--enets.e
henoitr to vote according: to his own conscience.--(C' bar
He felt that this was a measure of justice to that partde eery
lbjesty'g °minions to which the Bill was applied. 5'..501t.
mainly object, d tie this money being taken from the nf tbe
dated Fund, and he had therefore supported the motto` yid
Honourable Member tor Sheffield. This motion 01'4 e 0
successful, he still felt it to be his duttbere
vote for the motion of the Government- °short,
were many other questions asked him. Amongst gains;
whether he would continue to support this ecieasureeogbt
the opinions of his constituents ? Ile said that he thought tbs.,
his key to attend to the wishes of his constituents, rots ea
he had a higher duty, which was to attend to the
~ that,.
the whole commons of England.-( Cheers.) ne n-iesce P„;
he were to be forced to vote against his own eon "
report be psi
would rather resign.-(Cheers.) He had been
say something about resigning. He had said jest
twba o r°613%
stated to the House, that he would prefer reslgn-ng s
against his conscientious opinion. wulen:
M-. SHAW ebjected upon principle to the en-' • obsn:
f his ghat;
any Catholic college, and the amount was no Pert (hipk e
tion.-( Hear, hear.) At the same time, he did net aler"
ra eotri
the college itself would be benefited by the g-nth's 0°- so
It had been very truly said that the Catholics this a
scuspiphit.,n-hteesd
tuselvreerlasludcoullueugleds,duantdhehesamtherght that t" ohr -
He Would
oaail,,ge
to give the Catholics the power of endowing a
themsrWelvesY. Lenrn Aleo4
M. SE said that the Right Hon. and ee-ollegee
ber spoke as if the Catholics of Ireland supported 531,0 y, o"be
their own ; whereas they supported a college in lee Wt.
in Meath, one in Kilkenny, and one at Carlow• eeose r )
the fact that they supported colleges at their own 41(4e,h.fasi,
titled them the more to support from the State.--4 ofi"tee
It was impossible in the present condition of thadequaten Moo
nooth that the education of the priests could be bad tine je
high office they were destined to till. The state is Ow
upon itself the} support of the college, and the least of
was to ive a suffieient support. catholOalf
Mr.SHAW had not denied the liberal:( yof the 000 0
Ireland as regarded the education of their educatecl Prlote
said the State ought generals to b called upon to „s' 04
for them. As for ;he g purposes of a l'beraeelo t
the University of Dublin was open equ fly to Ca.-s, sue
Protestants, except only the officeis on the fou elate
_aa
scholars and the fellows. reath°;-
Mr. REDINGTON said that a, an Irish the 01 •
he felt the deepest interest in the allege in wa-caiho
were to be educated. He denies that ne Roman,- --that 01
Ireland des: rued the taunt of the L Aimed itecorneriles et
ought to support their own college. The Catty • ales-ses
late years. built churches out of th, it our eileansbehol'ee site
riesl those great temples of which their Vied h7,,ester
restore had built, and which were new "seeneurehosthl'' oe'
professors of the dominant religion. He hopeo"- the o-
co
hear again such illiberal language even fr° 00_1,010 •
and Learned Recorder. The State bad Cear.ses,
tributed a small portion of that of which the .
Church had be, n plundered with the sanction ef eserlitetii
and it was time that the contribution should be inc;thith•etCh •
Sir R. INGLIS protested again-( the language b the
Member who spoke la-t, and said that the Elablis of of
' , net
had olunaered the Roman Catholic with the e•- t,,
State. There was much of that kind of language re:101010
doors, but he could not hear it in the House eriethnsuthe Cnt 0!
Mr. WYSE said it gas matter of histery. tria,„"oloo,,s• spit°
Church was plundered at the period of the Rehirrilie 11-eo•
was it that Church alone that was plundered but eotsOott"
ld
landed proprietors in Ireland were plundered 1"- as- are 0011;
Mr. Ole `ASHY GORE believed that the reeob_de
he exceedingly useful. and he could assure the see Sf7ool
Baronet that he should have his firmest liepPort; by' 0'
elle° •
the eight Ho'. Baronet that he was supporteu sa etie
la 0,-
religieus testing in the House and out of dog be sirooor
Whatever might be the consequences to hiinseif " superdel
the measure his most strenuous and meat religien' brisk frnooftno "
eonsidera, ien on earth could induce him to shr.' of so toe
Oaring the joy which he telt at the announcerner es of 000
a measure.-(Chsers.) He respected the feetqr oath
who petitioned against the measure, hut
_ld Diet aieet
known that t very change for the better ho'Gevereoebo
equally boisterous ypo-ition, and he hoped th, sod
w old not he deterred om persevering in the plow-
coo re
work which they had begun. at ie slstn
Mr. 3A‘I ES was anxious to state the fact that, Legt ,oter
which he had la' sly visited, Belgium, the tath'ellef) os Fr too
of that country granted a handsome stipend to ee or the
tant clergymen in that country. In Brussels there
t,
.Lo7iter
clergymen, who had salaries from the Govern,
sonpesivt
were several others similarly supported in ded iheesigh,
towns. He was sorry that circumstances prectu the
beity of being present to vote for the naeaeuret;io, of
.5
"
Hon. Baronet. He would now take the oPPnr, es,efieltr
cordially giving his suppo. t in favour of the gran"
The chase was then agreed to. stifle
On clause 5 being proposed, the
Mr. COLLETT wished to know what was _ floe'
which the Dunboyne students were to receive 7
that thee'
Sir R PEEL said that it was their intentional. they
boyn students were to receive 651. each per all 7, Were
This clause, together with clauses 6 an t too
agreed to.
w uSir
in.
trts AcllsluAsell,lushaiiduhtlriealtatehde t
uwtahsedatra°,lllolait]9;,:sh°follthl;
students. He wished that the words " profess W
be put befo -e the word " students." against the
, A te
Colonel SIBTHORP said that he was ,he cow;
Bill from beginning to end. He would do
" a
_uobter.,
does Members to throw it out altogetber.---(l'a D
The clause, as amended, was agreed to. " , to.
Clauses 9, 12, 13, and 14, were then agree trod0
On clause 15 being proposed fed to the `',it'Gt t
Mr. PLUMPTRE said that as it rela e`
othveerutlhases ehducuckastiwohniuphurwsuereed
uastetdheth clan°
to of this
Clause 15 was then put and agreed ty po'
Before clause 17 being read,
clause being read, to state, in reyly to the Hoe
nosfr bee it stet
Mr. WYSE said he would take the oPPnartfuenroheraePere.r
site, that " Denn's Theologs' was not notraisa tet; to, IP
been read, at Maynooth College. lie would mayneet _jipeCer
ceroel.lege, he
wool
16'
wlras e
whatever. And now, having said this, he ,gage h.° • oh'
erroneousnd,ur in so thaty oth ethe k
inPgodpuem
uE u exercisedrure y
,t;eltOorki:t.abte:ouiti,
iandduitsieona,
tt
thhaet tut en
iwv
eo
rusl
ti
ieusu di:4e r
ttha ki
se
ctoouraCtardy:
j°
viSpitelY