Star.
London, England, 1830-03-20 00:00:00

market, and at the same time was subject to the mercy of the sea-
sons, the consequence of which was often moat severely felt by the
aristocracy and the landed proprietors in general. The issue of one
pound notes, bad as it was, in his opinion, was the only mode of re-
lieving the fanner. Even that, he was afraid, would not be suffi.
cient, and he would be a great statesman indeed who could devise
any ;ffectual remedy, and place the agricultural interest in the same •
footing with the commercial.
Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN agreed that Ministers had selected
proper taxes for remission ; and he congratulated them on having
done more than any former Government; roe did he think—while
they were determined not to reduce the establishments—that they
could have taken off more taxes. He thought that every exertion
should be made to relieve the country, as every class in the coin.
munity, shopkeepers and tradesmen, were equally affected with the
agricultural and manufacturing classes. He was satisfied, from
the inspection of various documents, and from the observations
he had personally made that the depreciation on commodities
in consequence of the change of the currency, was forty per cent.
He was not wedded to any particular remedy, nor did he think that
the way of the currency was the only road to relief; but still he
thought the question was an open one, and he had no idea that be.
cause a right honourable gentleman had brought in a bill on the
subject, it was for ever to be closed to all inquiry. He was not
frightened at the name of currency, nor could he see what
magic was in the name. He thought that property should be
taxed, and that those who drew a revenue from the country
should be obliged to contribute to the exigencies of the state.
He believed that there was a want of circulation in the country.
There was capital in houses, and all that was wanted was a medium
of interchange.—.[Some interruption having prevailed in the house,
the worthy alderman said, he was determined not to be put down
by the clamour and interruption in the discharge of his duty to
his constituents. lie would say to the Speaker, as a member of the
house once said, " I hope we are all here on equal terms." He
(Mr. IV.) who had constituents, felt himself, at least, on equal
terms with these hon. members who had not. He was determined
to do his duty, and he thought he was much entitled to ask the at-
tention of the house, out of respect to those whose opinions he
represented, as well as the hon. member who spoke for two hours
last night—(cheers).] The right hon. member for Liverpool contra-
dicted all the statements which he (Mr. W.) had made on a former
occasion, but he was ready to meet that right hon. gentleman—
that Goliah, that oracle who told the house how much he had la-
boured for the good of the country—before a jury of intelligent
men ; and he was satisfied their verdict would be in his favour.--
(hear, hear). The lion. alderman then went on to contend that the
right honourable member for Liverpool had been guilty of a fallacy
in mentioning the years from 1815 to 1820 as a test fur ex.
ports ; whereas, in 1815 and 1819 there had been a deficiency to the
amount of 10,000,0001. Great stress bad been laid upon the in-
crease of impotts, but they had increased for the last 30 years only
In proportion to the population. The official value of exports was not
a true criterion, as the real value was far less than ordinary. lie had
often repeated this, but he did not know how he appeared to the
public, as he read but one paper, and in that he was reported but
very shortly—(hear.) Free trade was nonsense—now called
reciprocity—a new name introduced by Lord Shelburne, after-
wards Marquis of Lansdowne, and rather of the description that
seemed to be praised by the honourable member for Bram-
ber. The question had been settled by Adam Smith who
had written best on the subject, and he had been echoed by Pitt
and others that what was looked for in such cases, was an equi.
velem. The country had nothing but its labour, and the Right Ho-
nourable Member for Liverpool seemed to say the less that was
I got for it the better. The system appeared to him like that phi.
losopher, the father of Tristram Shandy, who found out that the
world had been mistaken la 400 years, and that children had
come into the world the wrong end foremost. If, however, the
experiment of Mr. Shandy were tried, it would be found not more
ridiculous and untenable than that of the free trade gentlemen. The
Hon. Gentleman then touched upon silk, shawls, and shipping,
and dwelt at some length upon the duty upon servant girls gowns
not being more than that upon their mistresses. Ile then went on
to read an extract from a speech of the Right ilon. Member for
Liverpool in 1814, in support of his position, which from the cough.
ling and interruption, could not be heard in the gallery. He would
not be interrupted, for he did his duty to the public--and while
many who were disinclined to hear, applied their hours to cards and
wine, he devoted himself to public business. The labour of the
country was taxed 75 per cent, and when the principles now acted
on were carried into effect, it would be just as if 2,000 French pri.
;tenets were brought over and set to work here.
Mr. FYLEit said that the silk trade in Coventry laboured under
great distress, anti it would be an aggravation of the sufferings of
the people, if, at all events, no enquiry were entered into as to the
causes which produced it. The ribbon trade was carried on at a very
great loss, although it is said that the import of raw silk had con-
siderably increased. This was a fact against an assertion made
with great confidence by the right hon. member for Liverpool (Mr.
Huskiason). The wages of labour had also decreased, and he asked
if such a subject did not call for Inquiry ?
Mr. BRAMSTON said he had only a few remarks to make. He
was convinced of the reality of distress, though It was not universal.
He entered that house as an advocate for inquiry; but the only two
tangible objects for inquiry, namely, the currency and taxation, bad
been already disposed of. In 1819 the currency was fixed, and they
would only encounter greater evils if they now attempted to make
any alteration. (Hear.) The recurrence to a paper currency might
benefit the agricultural classes, but he could not shut his eyes to the
fact, that it would be injurious to the country. He felt satisfied
that the remission of taxes would be carried as far as prudence
would justify, and with that lie felt satisfied. If any further
remission rat taxes could take place, he would support it; but he
could not vote for the appointment of a committee. (Hear, hear.)
3tr. Lc it.:KHART said he was convinced that distress prevailed
in this kingdom, and inquiry should be entered into, to ascertain its
causes tine was a new ease of social distress; our trade increased;
our revenue did not fall off; and was not this a phenomenon de-
serving of the most serious investigation ? He attached no blame
to his majesty's ministers upon this subject; be believed the whole
house to he ignorant of the real situalon of the country, and hence
the necessity fur inquiry. This house had a constitutional duty to
perform, and he hoped they would not neglect it.
Mr. W. HORTON said he would resist this motion, upon the
ground that its object was to make an alteration in the currency.
(Cries of " No, no.")
Mr. ATTWOOD said the question for the house to decide now
was—was there that degree of distress and embarrassment In the
country which called for inquiry ? He would take the state of the
country as given in its most favourable terms, and sure he was that
even in such a state Inquiry would be absolutely necessary. He
believed the condition of the country to be most calamitous, and as
such deserving the most serious inquiry. Every interest in the State
was engaged in this inquiry the corn laws—the currency—free
trade—anti almost every other subject connected with our existenceas
a free people. The Act of 1819 fixed the price of wheat, and with that
the rent of land must fall; and that was a measure of confiscation._
The hon gentleman adverted again:to the change of the currency,
and imputed distress to that event. The petitions of the people
describing the existence of distress were entitled to more credit
than the letters read by the right hon. gentleman. The reports
made by the right hon. gentleman betrayed themselves, but the pe-
titions of the people spoke truth. The people, dissatisfied with the
conduct of parliament, called loudly for reform. The character of the
house had been changed, and the people turned from the house as
the house had turned from them. He however denied that the house
in its collective capacity was unable to protect the great interests
of the country. He could account for the unwillingness of the right
hon. member for Liverpool to go into inquiry. That right hon. gen-
tleman told them he had been acquainted with the objects of go-
vernment during the last 40 years, but he did not say that his own
measures had been influential. At a period like the present, the
house could not act upon the dicta of ministers. The right ho-
nourable gentleman bad told them of the horrors of the late war,
but he forgot to tell them the strength of the country had been
equal to the difficulty. During the 20 years of that war, the re-
sources of the country were able to meet the shock. They did not
give way until peace, when the measures of public men occasioned a
failure of those resources. The distress of the present day must have
been brought on by former dangerous and imprudent measures.
What was it that blasted the industry' of the people—that cheated
them of the profits of their labour, and left them a prey to famine ?
It must have been the unfortunate culpable legislation of that House.
It was the duty of the House of Commons to 11nd out what those
causes were; and to point out fairly how they were beyond the coe.
trot of the Legislature. They told the people that the ruin of Iffird
was occasioned by the bad harvest. In 1828 they told them the bar.
vest was over-abundant. Machinery had been described to be the
cause of that distress. The steam-engine was blamed, but if that was
the case, they could not frame a law to restrain the use of steam. it
was, however, absurd to suppose that machinery had produced dis-
tress. One of the choicest gills which science bestowed *amen be-
came destructive in their councils; but it had not reduced society to
the present state of distress. Could they tell the people that the
bankers had ruined the country by not leading their money to
when but a few years ago those very bankers were charged
with ruining the country by lending too much money ? The bankers
were now to be joint-stuck companies ; and It could not be forgotten
that not many years since joint-stock companies were sai.i to be the
cause of ruin to all classes. In this hour of distress he might
call the attention of the Howie to the real state of things.
During the evils of war and the quietude of peace ;that House had
been occupied in changing laws in abusing the monetary system,
witicii affected all relations in life. They had given •it .is pct.
petual mutation, and when they had but the finishing touch to their
system, they fotti4 the country involved in misery and distress un-
known before it fell under the curse of baneful measure*. It was
sad. in extentiatinn of these calamities, that Other countries were
equally exposed to distress. That was not the fact. No country in
the woad was setraing under distress sad privation like this country.

He could not suppose that distress in England did not affect other
countries. France, America, and other parts of the world tru.4 be
affected by the state of our embarrassed commerce, but no nation was
so miserable as England. The hon. member adverted to the paper
circulation, and contended that it was the standard in which their
great engagements and contracts had been founded. That s'ai:dard
could not be taken away without producing in all transactions hor.
rible confusion, and the present state of the country, which on
former discussions upon the currency was predicted with fatal Rem-
racy. The difficulties of the country had arisen from legislative
measures, and he for one would never admit that those difficulties'
were beyond parliamentary controul. In entering upon this subject
the hon. member had been anxious to prove that the distress under,
which all classes laboured was susceptible of remedial measures,
and without a breach of faith to the public creditor, the house of
commons might enter upon inquiry.
-- - -

_ . .
Mr. PEEL said, the question before the house, if agreed to,
would open inquiry and discussion on every subject hat could have
the remotest bearing on the public interests. He would merelioad-
vert to what had fallen from the hon. baronet, the member for
wall, to say that he never mentioned the honourable baronet, or the
party to which he was allied, with intentional disrespect. He did
not mean to defend the calumnious paragraphs of newspapers ; but
if the honourable baronet had been their object, the time would
come when he would be convinced that such weapons were as dan.
gerous in their recoil as in their attack. (Hear, hear.) With respect
to the subject before the House, he felt that distress existed in the
country to call forth all their sympathy and all their exertions
for its alleviation, by every means compatible with the safety and
honour of the country.—(Bear, hear.) His Right Honourable
Friend the Member for Liverpool had considered the unusually
large sums drawn out of the savings banks in the course of the last
year, as proof of the distress of the country. He could explain
that fact in a satisfactory manner ; one which both his Right
Honourable Friend and the House would be glad to hear. Pre-
vious to the month of November, 1828, the interest on de.
posits, In savings banks, was threepence per diem ; from
that period it was reduced by law to two-pence farthing ;
and it was prohibited to any individual to deposit more than 301. in
one year, and when the deposits and interest amounted to 2001. all
interest ceased. This of course led to the withdrawal of many sums
above 2001. and it appeared that in 1828, the deposits above 2001.
amounted to 2,273, while in the year 1829 they amounted to no
more than 1804. But he was happy to have to state the smaller depo-
sits, including all under 201. had increased nearly 4,0001 in the year
1829. In the year 1828 the deports under 201. were 68,2041. In the
year 1829, the deposits under 201. were 70,1591. There had been an in-
crease in Liverpool, Sheffield, Leeds, Southampton, Norwich, Exe-
ter, Truro, Warwick, in Whitechapel, and Panton.street, Hay-
market. (Hear, hear) He knew the sympathy of the House
with the poor so well that they would not think him too minute.
(Hear, hear, hear.) No one could feel more steeply the necessity of
enlarging by every means the enjoyments of the poor, which was a
security for their good conduct, and the best security of all property.
Of this feeling, the measures proposed by Government had given
proof.—(Hear. hear.) His Right Hon. Friend had recommended
the transfer of taxation from articles consumed by the poorer
classes ; but he did not name the substitute ; he believed, however,
he might say it was a property tax.—( Hear.)
Mr. HUSKISSON here said he meant a property tax on certain
classes.

Mr. PEEL said the subject had been fully considered by govern-1
meat, and it was thought better to have recourse to the reduction of
taxation proposed by his right honourable friend. It would, how.
ever, be inexpedient in him, as a minister of the crown, to offer any
opinion on the measures that might be deemed expedient to be
taken for the benefit of the country hereafter. (Hear, hear, hear.)
He was free to confess his opinion decidedly was, that most of those
honourable gentlemen who intended to vote for a committee on the
present question, intended to direct their attention more to a re-
vision of the currency and free trade question than to any other ;
the whole tenor of the hon. gentleman's speech was to that effect.
(Hear.) The currency question had been discussed and re-discussed
since the last bill in 1819 was brought in; nothing in his (Mr.
Peel's) opinion would be more imprudent than after eleven years'
operation of that bill a change should now be attempted ; why does
not the hon. gentleman (Mr. Attwood) in a proper way provoke dig.
cussion on that important question by producing his bill ; that would
be a much more satisfactory way of going to work than by vave
allusions of a dissatisfied nature ; but much as the bill of 1819 had
been blamed, he could not think that his Alajesty's ministers were in
error in bringing that forward ; he knew he would be charged with
being unfeeling by stating so much ; however unpopular the doctrine
might be, still he believed in it. His majesty's ministers at that period
adopted the only alternative that could be come to without causing
a breach of public faith. The measure of 1819 was blamed for
every evil that existed ; he would ask the house was there no panic
previously to that year. In 1810, when the country was poasessedan
inconvertible paper currency, a commission was appointed to inquire
into the then distress of the country : that e.ommisaon did report that
distress existed. (Hear, hear.) The right honourable gentleman
then went into a defence of the Ricardo system of currency at
some length, contending that the country being in a state of peace,
immediately after an expensive war, in 1819, the Bill of that
year ought to have the benefit of all advantages which it would
have had during the war, when an impulse was given to business oil
every description; during the first period of 14 years of that war,
the country exceeded its income in no less a sum than 189 millions,
sterling, and the following 14 years 238 millions, judging merely
on an individual question, where such expenditure took place be-
yond income, a revulsion of no ordinary kind was inevitable; the,
authors of the bill of 1819 were therefore not to be loaded with all
the ills of the present period ; these ills—many of them at least—
were beyond legislative controul.—(Hear.) He believed that much,
of the present distress might be attributed to steam and machinery,
but the advantages of these were beginning to be felt, and
they would ultimately tend to great advantage—(hear;) but
even as regarded this distress, there was a division of opinion.
An hon. member said that it w::s in Manchester the subject of much
controversy : the town being divided in two parties, one arguing
that there was no distress, and the other contending as strenuously
that die distress was great. (A laugh.) He (Mr. Peel) there-
fore would not take Manchester as a criterion of distress ; nor
Liverpool either, because honourable gentlemen better able to
speak of the state of that town were in the house; but he
would select a district where the honourable gentleman will be
able to bring forward contradictions to any of the statements
he (Mr. Peel) should make, in proof that the distress was not
on the increase in that quarter (Birmingham) at any rate. (hear,
hear.) —And before he entered into any statement, he was willing
to assure the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Attwood) that he (51r.
Peel) was willing to submit his Bill of 1819 to any test the Hon.
Gentleman might think fit to br'ng forward.—(Hear )..—ln 1819,
the date of the Currency Bill, there were in Birmingham 18,000 pre.
mins, including warehouses ; in 1828, there were 22,000 inhabited
hhuses ; therefore as far as an increase of building went, the currency
bill had not operated in a disadvantageous manner. Then, as to the
value of property, the difference there vas as great ; he would allude
to one particular instance : three acres of land which were pur-
chased in 1827 for 6,00!. per acre, had since been sold for 2,4281-
per acre.—(Hear.)—Ground-rents, too, of forty years' purchase.
were readily bought at lOW. A house, sold in 1828,at 3,b001. and
lately re-sold at 4,200!. The various tradesmen in the town had
increased in the same ratio; in 1820, there were 198 =haters ; in
1829, there were 241 ; in 1820, there were 1,150 sellers of tobacco,
and in 1829, there were 1,568. If further proof were wanting, it
might be quoted, that
.in 1819, the year, be it remembered, of the
Currency 11111, there were, in the san:e town of Birmingham,
of four-wheel carriages, 38 ; in 1822. there .were forty-four; in
1827, there were 136; in 1828, there were 157 (a laugh); and,
to show the House how the middling classes were off at these
periods, he (Mr. Peel) should quote the state of the two.
wheeled carriages (great laughter); in 1819, there were 301; in
1822 there were 321 ; in 1825, there were 388 ; and in HMI, there
were 471 ; therefore, he would again remind the house that the bill
of 1819 had certainly not prevented an increase in these things; but
bow have horses increased ? Why, in 1819, the number was 923,
and in 1828, notwithstanding the duty, they amounted to 977 !
The toll duties had also increased in the same ratio ; so also had
the canals ; indeed, the income of the tolls taken on the various
canals in that neighbourhood had increased to sixty.hve per cent.—
(Hear, hear.) He should, therefore, take leave of the currency
bill, imagining that he had convinced the house that its
effects had not been very mischievous. With respect to the real
question before the house, and which, after all was said had been
very little spoken to.—(hear.) He had asked the hon. member
what was the plan that he intended to bring forward, Oh ! says
the hen. gentleman, I am too old a soldier to inform you what it is
I intend to do,— (a laugh,) and after a fortnight's delay, he comes
forward and moves for a select committee of the house ; he (Mr.
Peel) did think that a committee of the whole house was much
better than a select one. Did the hon. member think a committee
of twenty-one gentlemen could, during the present session, enter
into the whole history of the currency, the corn laws, and many
other topics which had relation to the present distress, and report
thereon ? No honourable member could suppose that any thing sa-
tisfactory could come from such an operation ; in the midst of re-
turning prosperity, he (Mr. Peel) was unwilling to gn into details
any further ; but he had received letters that morning, which con-
vinced him, and would convince any honourable member, that the
country had passed the worst. (Hear, hear.) lie confessed that he
dreaded the remedy to be proposed worse than the (Ukase. He
should vote against the motion of the hon. member; it would do
the country more good to rouse the inqt.iry than to raise false hopes
by granting it. (Hear.
Sir CHARLES WETHERELL rose Amidst loud tries of
Queation," and at length obtained a hearing. Fur some time
there was so much noise in the House that we could not hear
what fell from the Honourable Gentleman. When we could
understand what he was 'eying, he expressed an opinion that I
the Right nowt:obi, Secretary had dedieat•ll five minutes nil