The Sun.
London, England, 1829-02-06 00:00:00

country ever produced, that that great-snessure is likely tole
brought forward not ittity by all his 31.j,aty's Ministers,
but recommended l;y Lis Msj,ty himself from the
Throne.—(Hear, hew, heir. )—lt wis true another trea-
sure had been recenaneadoil, but it . was impossible
there was no person in the country who did tint Nets!' that
those Cutholie Aosociati,aos AMA' be suppressed. It was
impossible that any GOVCT mama hut itself could exist under
its baneful effects, and the greatest evils had been occasion-
ed. Let us hope, however, that that Society will perform
an act of wisdom, and now dissolve itaelf.—(llear.)
And let us hope that all the other political societies—(hear,
hear, bear,)—will follow the same exainples. Then
.we May hope that a measure which will meet the
approbation of the IfouSe and the country wilt be
brOught before it, and that while it gives relief-to our
Roman Catholic subjects, it will at the same time preset ye
and maintain the institutions of this Protestant Empire,
which every man who loves his country, and venerates her
Constitution, would lose his life to Maintain—(hear)—and
which also his Majesty's Speech declares that it is his duty
and determination to maintain inviolate.—(Hear, hear.)
The Duke of NEWCASTLE begged to know from the
Noble Duke at the head of his Majesty's Government, alter
what had this day transpired, whether it was his in
tention to proceed by means of moving for a Committee

dereliction of his duty-towards the gatholicii, 'if he should
advocate the measure which way now preposed.—(Hear.)
He owed too much gratitude and respect to the Sovereign
now departed, and toe much to the Sovereign who now
existed—he owed it to the memory of the one and the
kindness of the other, to take care th he did nothing
which shOuld le disagreeable to the Sovereign now upon
the Throne ; het lie knew he epoke the s'utiments of that
great luau, when he that whatever be (Lord Eldon)
felt it his duty to do with respect to this important ques-
tion, his Msjesty would feel and know. that he did it in
the !moist and concientious discharge of his duty to. the
Throne; the Church, and the People. In support of the
arguments he Lad advanced, he had the experience of a
great proportion of the last century—an eventful period
'in the history of these realms. Many of the Noble Lords
around him were too young to remember the circum-
stance, or to perceive the • dangers which had arisen
out of them. The Catholic Association and its advocates
might tell them, as often as they pleased, that their
sole ol.ject was Catholic. Emancipation ; but when he
found that body introducing Parliamentary Reform
and Universal Suffrage into their discussions--whets he
saw them acting the part of Government, and directing and
controlling the people—when he perceived that while they
rejected poor's rates, they were extracting sums of money
from the pockets of the poorest and lung wretched portion
of the population; when he saw all 'these things, he could
not help feeling convinced that their object was the sub-
version of the PrOtestant institutions of the country. But
the Catholic Association did not step here ; they even re-
sorted to America, in aid of their institutions. He, too,
was willing to resart to Foreign Powers for subscriptions to
put down the Catholic Association,:if it could not otherwise
be put down. He was quite sure that body could not be
put down by any means short of the Common Law. Let
every member of the Association be made amenable at
Common Law fur his acts. Let the Association, as a
body, be made similarly amenable; thee, and not till then,
would the Association be dissolved. He must take Care
again to repeat that he could not agree with the Noble
Lord who seconded the Address, in thinking that the Ca-
tholic Association would dissolve themselves ; but even if
they did so, they would dissappoint the Legislature, un-
less such measures were- adopted as would prevent their
ghosts from ever rising. What ;was the language held
by the Association themselves? They openly stated,
that if put down as a body, they would take the field ;
they openly avowed that they looked to France—that
they looked to America, whose Constitutions they
were ready to set up in place of that of this country,
These were expressions of opinion which it was the duty
of the Legislature to watch over and guard against. Ile
had now arrived at that period of !Le when he could not
hope to address their Lordships very often upon this or
any other important question. He felt the more called
upon to remind them, that the object of the Roman Ca-
tholics were above mere emancipation. He well remem-
bered the Associations of 1794 and 1795, and he could
judge from the proceedings of these times, that when they
asked for a participation in the benefits of the Constitution
their object was to alter its frame. If such an alteration
had become necessary, let it be done openly, at any hazard,
but let them not allow it to be silently and secretly under-
mined.—[Here. the Noble Lord made some allusions to the
present state of Greece, and the efforts made by the three
Allied Powers in her behalf; but his voice fell so low that
he was inaudible even to those around him.J—Adverting
again to the affairs of Ireland, the Noble Lord cautioned
the Legislature against the admission of Jesuits into
that country ;—(Cries of hear, hear)—Jesuits—that
set of men who had been put down by the infallible Pope,
but who had subsequently been raised up by another power.
He was unwilling to go further upon that occasion than
stating, that he would take every opportunity of opposing
any Bill introduced for the purpose of granting concessions

to take into consideration the disabilities that had been
thrown on the Roman Catholics, or whether it was his in-
tention to bring in a Bill for the removal of those dis-
abilities?
The Duke of WELLINGTON, in answer, had
the honour of informing their Lordships that
it was the intention of his Majesty's Government, accord-
ing to the course proposed in his Majesty's Speech, to
present to Parliament, in the course of the present Ses-
sion, • a measure for the adjustment of what was
called the Roman Catholic Question, without going through
a committee. That measure would tead to the removal ge-
nerally of all the disabilities under which the Roman Ca-
tholics laboured, with the exception solely of that which
rested on special grounds; it would be accompanied also
by other measures, rendered necessary by the removal of
those disabilities.
The Earl of WINCHELSEA hoped that what he
should say would be marked with all the deference that
was due, net only to any intimation that proceeded from
his Majesty, but also that came from the Noble Duke at
the heed of -the Government. He had heard with much
surprise, and with the most heart-felt regret, that a
measure was now to be brought forward for the
removal of the disabilities affecting the Roman Ca-
tholics, and that, not• by those who had hitherto, con-
sistently with honor and candour uniformly advocated the
ramoval of those disabilities, but by those very individuals
who, up to this moment, Lad been diametrically opposed to
such a measure ! There was so much inconsistency in this
that he durst not give vent to his feelings, otherwise
he might use language that might tend to interrupt
the harmony of the House. If the noble Duke had
discovered of late that there would be safety to the
Protestant community by bringiug forward a measure of
this sort, the candour he owed to the House, and to that
Protestant eommunit!, ought to have induced him to
have stated what were his grounds for entertaining such
au opinion. (Hear, hear.) If the constitution of this
Country were to remain essentially Protestant no in
who did not cherish the purest Protestant
principles, was fit to legislate over them. He main-
tained that there was in the Roman Catholic Reli—
gion that character and those principles which were
perfectly inconsistent with the Protestant privileges, and
when this proposed measure should be brought forward, he
earnestly trusted the Protestant part of this Constitution
would narrowly watch this part of the Bill, and take espe-
cial care that their rights were in no way whatever
infringed by it. He once felt himself proud to
be a member of that party who advocated the
principles of Protestantism, but if a proceeding such
as was now thought of were to go on, the day would come
whets it would have to be considered a disgrace and dis-
honour to have belonged to such a party.—(Cheer.)
The Earl of ELDON having been for man • years

. .
Member of that House, clarity, which time the:question that
had culled forth the speech they had just heard, had been
frequently discussed, and during which it had been his
duty to make representations to his Majesty on that sub-

ject, could truly sily that it had never I;een discussed but
with temper and moderation, and ke trusted it would still
be discussed in the same manner. But he must say, that
he felt he should he betraying his duty to his Sovereign,
and to every Member of that House—knowing as he did
that some of them fully concurred with him in opinion—
if he did not express his opinion on the subject. He
should be betraying his duty to his fellow-subjects of this

Protestant country, whose Government had been estAlished
as Protestant at the Revolution—at that Revolution which
had been now all at once discovered to have been founded

by Protestant bigots--(Hear, hear, and laughter)—sye
bigots—but he would beg to remind Noble Lords, that if
there were bigots in religion, there might also be bigots in
laxity, and bigots in liberelity.—( Hear, and laughter.) He
said he should betray his duty to all, if he did not shortly
state his opinion on this subject, which had now becoMe
the moat important that had arisen since the Acts now
sought to be repealed were passed, and when that Esta-
blishment was formed, which it was declared should last
for ever, and which had at the same time been declared ne-
cessary for the preservation of the law, religion, and li-
berties of the country. He did not believe that he should
state the question, except with temper and moderation; he
trusted he should always do so; but be could not help
feeling deeply on the subject, and he must express his
earnest hope, that those who had to vote on the .ques-
tion would not make their minds hastily, but would act
with deliberation, and act at last only as their con-
sciences told them they ought to act. He had stood

in a - situation in this country, in which he should
have been the most unpardonable man in it, if he had
not.at all times felt the grievous responsibility of this ques-
tion, and the solemn obligation he was wider when called
on to determine it, to do his duty conscientiously to his fel-
low-subjects, to his country, and he would add to his God.
He had never doubted that those who came down to that
House to determine the question, ought.to consider them-
selves peculiarly called 'cm to weigh well the consequences
of the conduct they were about to pursue. He would say,
in his place in that House, and he hoped the people of the
country would by some means become acquainted with the
.declaration—if he had a voice that would sound to the re-
motest corner of the Empire, he would re-echo the prin-
ciple which he most firmly believed, that if ever a Roman
Catholic was suffered to form part of the legislatures of this
'country, or to bold any of the great executive offices of its
Government, froth that moment the sun Of-Great Britain
would set for ever.—(Cheers.)—The Marquis of Salisbury
had certainly talked a great deal about the rights of the
Catholics to be admitted into the Legislature, but who ever
heard of such a thing. Was it not competent for any State.
to say who should or who should nut be competent to fill
its office? No consideration on this side the grave should
ever induce him to give his consent to the introduction
of Roman Catholics iuto any of the great political offices.
With great deference to the Noble Duke at the head of.
his ithjesty's Government, he would say that if- this mea-
sure was fur the iutereit of the country, its interest had been
-very much neglected during the lust Sesshmi by thine
'whose duty it was to `have protected it. The NOble LOrd,
who had seconded the 'Address; had hoped the Catholic
Association • would have the good sense• to put an end.
to itself; but he (Lord Eldon) would be glad to know
when the members of this Association would have
the good sense to-do that which the Noble Marquis thought
they woeld... Where WAS the proof that they would do
this? they who had so kuts been catechising their fellow-
subjeets, and governing (if he might. so say) the Govern.
went for aolitilliy years. thit what then? Suppose they
should-diiSolV6 tile Association; what was to be done then ?
Why, to surrender the Protestant Ascendancy. He could
not conceive how men could bring their minds to do so in
favour of a party in the United Kingdom, who embodied
themselves! Session after Session to proclaim aloud their
sedition-74x', their fressep, fps seeh it realty was, if
their Lordslops were to believe what On' .foqud pub-
tithed of their proceedings. If his Noble., Friend sup-
posed that he could pnt an -end to the Association by a
mere Bill for that purpose, he feared that those who were
to put that Bill into execution would find' that unlas
the Association should be pleased to dissolve themselves
they would become !nor° and more. irnportaut every
diy.' Ile had had acme oiperiencu in utsttetii of thiii
kind. There was no oircumstance of more importance
relative to the sfate'of die country than what 1.4 cl passed
in the years 1795, 1794, and '1795, when- bodies of
Men associated together, and there was to be teeonven-
Lion in the Country. (Some Noble Lord on the other side
of the House laughed at this allusion to by-gone times,
when the Noble Earl, turning sharply to that side of ;the
House, exclaimed, " Well may lie laugh—quorum pars
magna fuit ;" loud laughter followed this obset vation, and
the Noble Earl proceeded.) That Convention Wined
overturning the whole Cous:itution, and he could
he 1p .entertaining strong doubts that the Rotnan Catholics
Association had: the same object, since they brought
into question that principle on which alone his Majesty
was entitled to Sit upon the Throne. This country utielit
send him :o''the grave With all the odium it might think
proper to blast his reputation with, throueli "the re-
untindei of " his life, but he should consider it
to, 'be a very great dereliction of his duty towards .
Ding and his fellow-kubjecti, and he might soy, a gross I

sent, were to be thrown 'open to• Roman Catholics, ex-
eept certain accepted c:,ses—by which he (Lord Farnham)
understood Chun eh patronage ; there might be others, and
if so, of course his Noble Friend would inform Lim. The
I people of England, the Covernment might rest assured,
were not dead to this question. They did not yet know
the full exteut 'of the injury intended them; but the cloven
foot was out, and 'me long the voice of the nation would
thunder in the enn.s of Miniekre iu a manner which they
would not dare to disregard. With respect to the Catholic
Association of Ireland, every man who has witnessed the
acts of that body must feel the necessity of putting
it down. It had. paralyzed the Acts of the Irish
Government, and ought to be suppressed. The Le-
gislature attempted to do .so in 1325, and therefore
palmed the celebrated Act of that year. At that Act
the Association laughed—they felt its imbecility, and they
despised it. He hoped the Noble Duke would bear this
is mind, and not allow the Irish people to be insulted by
such a wretched and imbecile Bill. For himself, he had
bees thinking of the Catholic Question ever since he had
been able to think upon any subject, and he confessed that
he had never been able to see, nor had wiser men been
able to see, any adequate security which the Remain Ca-
tholics had to give. As to paper securities, such as the
Test and Corporation Acts, let not the people of England
again be insulted with them.
The Marquess of DOWNSIIIRE rose for the purpose
of expressing the pleasure and satisfaction he felt at hear-
ing the eloquent Address proposed by the Noble Marquess
to the Gracious Message that . day received from the
Throne. He looked upon this as a most important and
happy era in the history of his country. . The Irish people
—and, indeed, he might add, a great portion of the
nation at large—had, our the last twenty pats, looked
forward to a final adjustment of the question; a question
which, he now hoped and trusted, was to be at once, and
for ever, set at rest.
The Marquis of ANGLESEA rose, as far as we could
collect, to express his satisfaction at the part of the Speech
which indicated the intention of his Majesty's Government
to remove the political disabilities under which ties Roman
Catholics at present. laboured. In his opinion, this mea-
sere was one of paramount importance; for he was con-
vinced that it not only involved the tranquillity,
.but the
safety and prosperity of Ireland, and, he might add, of
the British Empire. He felt convinced that the time was
approaching when he might endeavour to call the attention
of their Lordships to his administration of the of of
Ireland -for the last 10 mouths. Under the impression
that- he should soon have the opportunity of entering
on the subject, he would nut think of troubling their
Lordships with it at present. Upon all the subjects con-
nected with his sudden reeal from Ireland---npon every-
thing bearing any relation to the charges which had
been brought against him, of having acted incon-
sistently with his duty as the King's Representative
—lnc was ready, and always should he ready, to enter,
and to give the most fuR and satisfactory explanation in
his power. He should always be glad to be placed in that
situation which afforded him an opportunity of explaining
the whole of his conduct, and defending himself from every
aspersion. He was most reluctant to call the attention of
their Lordships and of the public to this topic; but it was
a duty to which be felt himself bound, and he merely wish-
ed to impress upon their Lordships' minds, that he courted
the most strict inquiry. Ile was perfectly ready to vindi-
cate himself on every point ; and he only abstained from
entering further into the subject, from the circumstance
that the House was then so importantly occupied on other
topics. Nothing would prevent him, at all times, from
being ready to meet every inquiry ; and the more complete
the inquiry, the more he should feel gratified ; the closer
the investigation, the snore certain he should feel of obtain-
in,g a verdict in his favour from every person of integrity.
He would again express his entire satisfaction at the
_ _

to the Roman Catholics. He was • aware that he would attention which their Lordships were about to pay to
be condemned for making such a statement, but until he the Catholic Question; but he could not refrain from
felt convinced that he was wrong, be would never recede expressing his ardent hope, that whatever was done in
from it. favour of the Catholics, might not be done in an ungra..
Earl BATHURST said, his object in riling upon that cious, niggardly, illiberal manner.—(Hear, hear.)—lle
occasion was to call the attention of the House, nut to the trusted that whatever measures alight be adopted, they
nature •of the measure of relief proposed to be extended to would be such as were worthy of a wise and liberal Legis-
the Roman Catholics further than as it had been stated in lature to offer, and befitting a high-minded, generous, lommee
the Address proposed by the Noble Marquis (Salisbury), suffering, and truly loyal people to accept. (Cheers.) lie
but-to explain an observation or two made by some Noble had attempted to say a few words to their Lordships in con-
Lords near him. It appeared to him that one Noble Lot d sequence of what they had limed with reference to the Ca-
was enraged at finding that the question was proposed to tholic Association.. This was extremely tender ground for
be taken into consideration with caution and moderation, as biro to touch upon ; fur he was not quite sure that many
if this caution and moderation were to apply to the oppo- among their Lordships (lid not imagine that Le was a
nents of the measure only, and not to those who were member of that Association. (A laugh.) Nay, sonic of
likely to support it. Such however, was not the fact ; the Noble Lords might be under the impression that he
caution and moderation were recommended equally to all, was actually under delegated powers from them. (Laugh-
and without the exercise of both it was impossible to ex- ter.). This, he could assure the House, was -not true.—
pect any beneficial-resulte from Such a discussion.—(Hear.) He remembered addressing their Lordships from that very
—lt was not intended to enter into the merits of the metres- spot (.few Sessions ago, when he got into some little diffi-
tion on that occasion ; that evas not the time for it, nor culty• by having made tree of a military phrase. PerhaOs
could it by any indirect course of proceeding be introduced what he was now going to say might in some measure sk-
in detail on that day ; but his Noble Friend the Duke, your of his profession. lie meant, however, to make use
who sat near him, had been called upon for an explana- of an old and acknowledged observation in military affairs—
tion, which Ile gave in the most succinct manner, avoiding that the nearer you were to the enemy, the less you often
all matter calculated to give rise to discussion ; and that had to encounter, and the less sensible you were of danger.
course he also was most anxious to adopt. A Noble and Thus it was with all who lived in close contact with this
Learned Friend of his had observed, that it would be incon- Catholic Association. That Association had been under his
sistent on the pat tof those who opposed the question last eye for ten mouths, and he had experienced no danger limn
year not to oppose it on the present occasion ; but he was it. The Association existed only because the House had
sure his Noble Friend would see time difference of the two not the ingenuity to pass a law by which it could
questions. The question last year was introduced without be suppressed. He hail only to a-k, was the As-
the consent of Ministers, yet that did not pledge them Sociation legal or not? Ile had sounded his Majesty's Go-
against its introduction this year, should circumstances vernment on the subject, and begged them to point out
render it expedient to do so. Besides, when the question whether the Catholic Association were illegal, and wile-
passed the other House last year, it was opposed in that thee it.were expedient to put it down. If it were; lie
House ; yet it should he remembered, that towards the could have suppressed it without the least difficulty what-
end of the Session a sort of intimation was given that ever. That the Association was unconstitutiouel, nobody
something might be done; and now his Majesty's Minis- pretended to doubt ; but he (lid not believe that any body
ters stood pledged to support inquiry, as they had pro- had undertaken to say that it was illegal. Why then did
posed it to the Throne to recommend it to the Legisla- it exist Merely because the Government bad riot the in-
ture—a measure which they could hardly have adopted genuity to pass a Bill which could suppress it. lie, how-
without being prepared torecommend some specific alteration ever, was of opinion that any Bill brought in to obtain
of the existing state of things. Ile for one had always thought, that object directly would be very bad law. If Ministers
that if ever such a measure ought to he carried, it ought would only follow his advice, he declared he would propose
to be in the form of a recommendation from the Throne- a measure that would have that effect immediately, with-
Upon this principle it was that Mr. Pitt at first proposed out difficulty, and without giving reasonable dissatisfation,
to introduce the question, having intended to take upon to any party. The measure which her would recommend
himself and his colleagues the adoption of some measure of would be—a Bill to place all Roman Catholic subjects an
relief; finding himself unable to carry it,, he retired from a footing of perfect equality with their brethren the Pro-
office. Not making the question a Cabinet question was testants.—(Hear, hear.)—Were such a Bill to pass the
also one fault of-Lord Liverpool's Administration; for that House, he was well convinced that nobody would ever hear
Administration was so formed, that it was impossible to more of the Catholic Association, It was superfluous to
unite the Ministry upon it. There were at first existing, put down the Catholic Association by .a direct Prelimi-
to be sure, certain circumstances which rendered the goes- nary Bill, for its extinction would be a necessary con;
Con a difficult one. The country was involved in war, sequence of the sett!ement of the Catholic Claims.—
and it became necessary to unite men in the Adminietra- (Hear, hear, hear.)
tion who agreed upon other points, though they differed Lord GODERICH must confess himself not a little
upon this. But when the war ceased, the system remain- disappointed that the Speech afforded so little information
ed.—every Aheriber of the Cabinet took which side he on ono of those points which appeared to him tq be of
pleased,but not as if it were a Government question ;so that vital important*, whether he considered it he relation to
that Government did not escape its share of responsibility. the feelings, the honour, the policy, or the deep interest
It was responsible for its neutrality, and it was responsible of Great Britain; he meant the relations between Eng-
for its irresponsibility. At the termination of Lord Liver- laud and the Court of Portugal. He was given to un-
pool's Administration Mr. Canning succeeded, and formed derstarel that the communication, the diplomatic corn-
an Administration, in which he had such a minority in a" munication at least, between this country and the Court
numerous Cabinet, that two only were opposed to Catholic of Portugal was still suspended. His Majesty's Govern-
• Emancipation, and one of the two, the present Lord merit, it-was said, had been occupied in earnest and well-
Chancellor, it was known, bad never expressed himself meant endeavours to settle the difficulties of that country,
:hostile An
_the question in the event of .proper securities and to, diminish thepressure of the mischief; by direct
And yet Mr. Cumin clung to the sys- lodations with the Emperor el the Brazils. But he
tens Of his pradecessees ; the question was nut made a knew nothing of. the nature, though he was informed of
'Cabin( t question, and it consequently failed.• Since then it the object of those
.negociations—nor did he know of the
had,however,gone on gaining in importance—an importance mode in which they lyric likely to be eermineted. Unless
'too great to be neglected ; and if Government were any the House received some information from Ministers, be
longer to remain Oeutral, that neutrality would become was afraid that their .Lordships had no option but to con-
injurious to time interests of the country at large.—(Hear, elude that the negociations, whatever they were, had not
hear.)—Upon these
.grounds it was that Ministers had proceeded in a satisfactory course. Nn other inference could
humbly advised his Majesty to recommend to the Legible- be draws. The subject, he repeated, was of time utmost
tore the adoption of such a measure• importance, and it was one upon which Governmeut were
Lord FARNHAM and the Mariposa; Of DOWNSIIIIIE bound to afford the (louse all reesonahle information. At
rose at the same.thoa ; but the latter having given way, present every thing was withheld from their Lordships.
the former proceeded. Ile was anxious to say a few words He did feel that if there was any spot in Europe, or in the
more, however, with reference to the form at' time proceed- world, to which England was bound by stronger ties titan
lugs itbou.t to be introduced, titan in -opposition to time in- to any other (he would almost say by ties of affect:on), -
-teeeete of the Human Catholics in figure. But he thought it was to time little kingdom of Pot tugsl. He should Press
it right in Bruins that no mistake should go forth to the on his Majesty's 'Ministers hie expectation that their Lord-
public as to the intentions of Ministers upon this question. ships would, in due time, receive such information .on the
Ile was the more anxious upon this point, as time Catholic subject as would give thetn a hope that every thing was
Question was uric which involved the feelings and interests likely to terminete to the gratification' of all those who knew
()Stile whole
.populationi lie might say from. the Land's how to estimate roil cherish the close connexion of the two
End to John O'Groat's; and although the expressioa of kingdoms. With reference to alleirs in the East of Europe,
feeling upon it WAS neither. so loud nor so universal as he should be ready to come forward and support the policy of
might have been expected, it must be considered to have the Treaty of July. He would now say a few words upon a
arisen from the esteem and confideuoe placed by the people more important, because it was a more domestic subject.
in the high character and unbending constitutional feeling He concurred whh the recommendation with which his
of the Noble Duke at the head Of his Majesty's Government; Majesty's Speech concluded, as to the tone and temper in
and he must confess that confidence gave the public a right which Parliament might to consider the question. 33;tt la
to expect that Isis Grace would not hiveintroduced-so im- agreed with the Noble Lord who Lad epeleee. et- an seiVi'oer
portant a measure with such little notice. If it were not a part of the debate, that thee* never Ised.lecen any natuifese
little irregular, be won'd state two grounds which strength.• nation of eioleose or. temper, or of any thing but the calm-
cited this expectation on the part of the people—hen-mot the Bess whieh ought -to regulate the pt oceedings of the House,
Noble Duke's speech on the late (limo:treacls of the 64h0110 and which they were now about to manitid—but not for
• Question, and a more recent publication of his noble Friend, I the first time. So deeply did he feel the paramount
both of which a contraryopitiionprevailed; and from both • portance of settling the Catholic Question, that whatever
is was reasonable to Suppose that the Noble Duke entertained might he his individual and personal fehlings on verioal
no such intention. And here he must observe, that the recent events—events of the last two }earl,,, whicls lie cone
channels which tt,uallY convey public infortmtation, and time fessed had never led him .to autieipatr the happy event 'to 0
c meductors of which sometimes. took a peep behind tie which their attention was now adverted-4e should feel it
eettain. had, upon this occasion, studiously kept the public Lis duty to suppress those feelings altogether, even 1•
in tie dirk as to the intentions of his Maj. sty's Ministers. though he could not pretend to extinguish them. He had
The Noble Duke hail, in answer to a question ant by a never been a party to any 'consideration of the subject, but
Noble • Duke. (Newcastle) on the Cross Bench, informed ou the principle of a deep conviction of the absolute neces-
their Lordships that elf offices, both in and out eity of &Win& the question for the safety of the enlirct

His -heari was moat warm at the language of the Speeds,
and at the arguments of the Noble Lord opposite; for he
felt under a conviction thut the "proposition would, with
respect to terms, times. and the circumstances belonging
to it, be suds as he could honestly and consistently acceded
to. With respect to the Catholic As-ociation, he fully
agreed in what had been sail by the gallant Marquis be-
hind him (the Marquis of -log!coed). lie believed that
the most effectual Bill that could be devised to put down
this Association was, a Bill that would admit the Catholic
subjects of the empire into an enjoyment of squid political
rights with their Protestant brethren. Any other mett•
sure, if it could be effectual, would unnecessary. When
• Government was prepare] to grant a boon, it was useless
to put down by law that which must be ilims•lved by na-
ture. He did nut advise the Catholic Association to dis-
solve itself, and he cared not whether it did b 0 or not, for
the nature of things would dis Solve it. Theme would be
nothing on which they could hereafter exist. He should
not be too nice with reference to the Catholic Association,
nor with reference to the measure of securities. The hest
security to his mind was to do the thing they were about
to do.

Lord ELDON spoke not very audibly, hut to the
effect of accusing the Preeident of the Council with sup-
porting a measure to which he had declare/ interminable
hostility.
Lord BATHURST denied the sentiments imputed to
hint by the Noble and Learned Load.
The Duke of NEWCASTLE should enter Lis decided
protest against that part of the Speech 'which related to the
Catholic Question. That part of the .speech of the Presi-
dent of his Majesty's Council, which implied that their •
Lordships should accede to the Catholic Question, because
it was recommended from the Throne, formed to his mind
a strong reason why the House should reject it. Is his
op4rion, this recommendation from the Throne was the very
ground on which the House ought to reject the proposed
measure. He had hoped the Noble Duke, on Whom their
Lordships had relied as their defender, would still have
been their defender. If he entered on a course so danger-
ous, he could tell him that he would fall from that high
situation which he now filled. If Le deserted his God and
and his country be would fall. into disgrace.
Lord REDESDALE wished to state what occurred to
him on the subject, and first with referent* to the sup-
pression of the Catholic Association. Was it the intention
of Government that the common law of the land, with re-
ference to such Associations, should remaisi or not? Me
conceived that the Noble Duke might, with propriety,
propose a law which should give to the common law of the
laud, now applicable to all such bodies, another power to
prevent the evil of this particular case. What' was the
language now used in Ireland, even amongst the highest
in situation in the Roman Catholic Church ? They said,
they were preparing to sweep the pestilent hierarchy of
Protestantiem limn the /ace of the earth. Was such lan-
guage to be endured ? Was power to be given to such
persons to effect what they threatened? The Government
Must put down that spiait in the Catholic Church. It re-
mained in Ireland, it hail de slated Sprin, and had produced
such inconvenience in Portugal. This was a very difficult
task. The Parliament in the last Session, hail thought pruper
to admit Dissenters from the Church generally. When he lied
given his negative to that measure, it VIM on the impression
of the danger of similar proceedings in favour of the Cabo-
lies. He had been less adverse tirthe Dissenters, because,
although they were numerous, they were a divided body.
They were dinned into a-sty almost without end, and each
of the sects was a distinct and separate !roily. They were
not combined in the manner of the Catholics—they were
not under such subjection to their Priesthood, nor were
they connected with any Foreign Power. When the Ca-
tholic religion was the religion of the country, the Parlia-
ment had taken upon itself to regulate the correspondence

between the Church of England and that part of the
Church which was at Rome. The Bishop of Rome
claimed to be Bishop of the Christian Church, and, con-
sequently, asserted the right to regulate the Common Hall.

_
This would still be the case if individuals were to be at
liberty to correspond with Foreign Powers, without the
restraint of Government. This subject caused ranch and
serious consideration, and the Dis,enters were as much
alarmed as any other dvscripthni of Protestant,.
The Duke of WELLINGTON felt convinced that their

Lordships would nut expect front him any further details
am to what were the intentions of his Majesty's Govern-
ment with respect to the subject they were about to bring
forward for the consideration of the House. His Majesty
had been pleased to 11111101111 M his desire, that Parliament
should take into its consideration the question of settling the
Roman Catholic disabilities, and all points affecting the
Catholic subjects of the realm ; and he had pointed out the
particular manner in which the question of such disabilities
were to be taken into consideration. When he (the Duke
of Wellington) had stated svhat was the general purport
of the measure, which his Majesty's servants had intended
to propose, it was evident that he was aware that Parlia-
ment always meant to a Mere ►o that paramount principle
which his Majesty was determined to preserve inviolate. It
was really plain that Government was well provided in the
principle to which the Noble Lord had adverted. If the Noble
and Learned Lord would discuss his points when the n*asure
was before the House, the Government might derive the
utmost advantage from his assistance. Having said thus
much in reply to the Noble and Learned Lot d,he must advert
to what had Wien from the Noble Baron, his friend on the
oss-bench. The Noble Baron bad accused him of want
of candour in bringing forward this measure. In reply,
he must remind the House, that on several occasions
he had invariably stated his it cat anxiety to see a settle-

ment of the question. iie hod always added that he con-
sidered a period of tranquillity necessary, in order to be
able to bring about the object. He considered tranquillity
especially necessary, because he wished to conciliate to the
Question, those whom he knew to be adverse to it—that

class of persons from whom the Noble Lord anticipated such
numerous addresses. What he now wanted the House to
do was, what he was aware would not lead to the tranquil-
lity which he so much desired. It was, however, his wish

to conciliate, as much as possible, the people of this country
to the measure he bad been induced to adopt in Ireland.—
The Noble Duke on the (TOM bench (the Duke of New-
castle) had stated to the Hotise, that the measure about to
be proposed was inconsistent with the Constitution of the
country, as established at the era of the Revolution.—

If Government were about to propose what was to in-
4oduce a predominant Catholic power into Parliament,

le should say he was then doing what was inconsistent

witness
tf f:iot h 'flu%
that
g which could no t
cerdatiipdelointigitor, he
outrage izegilhoßtn,;7ootuitlrbmegiaosniti
teayn(e.cfnie.;l,
to himibe very agreeable. But the Noble Person to whom
I am alluding has been spared, by the delicacy of my
Noble Friend opposite, the Ninful task of aiding and abet-
ting a proceeding Which he must regard as a gross outrage,
but one which I consider as doing the highest honour to
the French Government. The decisive step of the occu-
' pstion of the Mores by the French, was, under the eh--
cumstmaces, a proof of the high honour and military energy
of that Ie•ople. Travelling farther westward, I cannot
irslp alluding to tie policy which has been pursued with
respect to Portugal. I in unwilling, at present, to enter upon
the details olthe measures which have been adopts!, with
respect to that truantry; but I am anxious that the propre
explanations should be given on that head, and that it
s'arrald be made to appear, that the correspoo(e►:ce of
the Government of this country with the land of this
house of Braganca has been carried on in the most
amicable and satisfactory manner, and with the prospect
of ►,sadimg to the most beneficial results. I now come t
that most important topic which is touched upon at the
the close of his Majesty's Sper,b_the settlement of Ire-
land ; a measure which was an alradutely indispensable
preliminary to the good government, the happiness, sad
the prosperity of that country. When I see that a groat
good is in view, there is nobody less disposed to inquire
critically and scrupulously into the motives of those by
vl loin the measures for effectuating that great good are t ►

with the Constitution ; but he was doing_. no such thing.
Ministers were as adverse to every tendency to that result,
as those who opposed them. Would any man pretend to
say, that a Catholic power did not now exist in this
country and in Ireland ? Government was not introduc-
ing any Catholic power into Ireland—for that power was
acknowledpd to exist—and it required a measure like that
now proposed, to balance it. He entreated Noble Lords
to look at the situation of the country. Nu Government
could go on in the situation of the country—in the exist-
ing state► of Ireland, and• he might add, in the exist-
ing state of public opinion on the Catholic Question.
His opinion was, that it was the wish of a majority in
both countries, that the question should be settled. Oil
this conviction, he:had, with the concurrence of his
friends, brought forward the ►neasure for their Lordships
consideration, and he entreated the House to give time to
bring the measure forward in a wanner in which they
could obtain his Majesty's assent, and the approbation of
the country. .

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE—Vast and paramount
a is the impoi tenet) of the subject of the state of Ireland,
'and the consideration, of the nicourcs which may be best
calculated to introduce peace, prosperity, and contentment
among the mass of the population of that country, we
must not allow ourselves to he so far engrossed by this
great object of domestic policy, us entirely to forget
that there exists a continent of Europe. The topics to
which the Speech directs our attention, with c4.roffe
to our foreign policy, on, some of thit,n ui least are
also of the utmost impertauee. Whew will, afterwards
be discussed at greater length; Gut even now they
ought not to be dismissed without some observations.
First, its to the war which now rages in the East of
E.uropo bet Ween Russia and Turkey. lam truly early
that the efforts of his Majesty's 'Ministers to put an end to
that War have not been more successful. lam sorry that
they have not better succeeded in averring theippteket4o
of those horrors with which such a war must he utVii.lo;
if it should disturb the general lasi, e yi.tupr. -.1/4t
admit that I do not know
any rue.rlt:ce. mace calculate:a to
avert such horrors Von the ptAicx puystrecl la 4 year, found-
ed on the Treat;, 9. COT4i a4ilt ferrying into effect the
deter Diu t;u tti comer] sari t the cessation of hostilities
fAreeee,,Vear, hear.)---I regard that policy, and the
sera to which have resulted from it, with the highest ainii s.
bation. It is a line of policy which. has given tk iR
e :jest
sanction to the Treaty, notwithstanding the alhakionaCti
some that it Would be in terferinewith th‘e artt;eiiees,t pviueiplea
of national policy to take pK.se---4.4.qju oVinlc Kilian of the do-
minions of our Wklift44 'l,kkoit ancient, and moat en-
lightened tit a view to the pacification of Greece,
an:, Otitititu en,' to the inhuman warfare which was
waged in that country. It was an act of sound policy
aml plain justice to take possession- of the Mores, ak-
though by some it was considered as a gross and abomkt,‘4l.}a
outrage ; an I I cannot help admiring the delipOy of my
Noble Ft iced, the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs,
who sent one of those who hxl au d'ecidedly ili%approved of
the interfinenee of ;he three Powers with the Grecian part
e( the Qttutpan cultirc cut of ths way to anotLer ticettq

be roposed. Ido not go the length 4.f a Noble Lord who
tl.at every art of grace and favour ought to emanate
.`run► the Crown ; hut I do say, that acts of grave and
favour do come with peculiar grace and propriety from
r'►e Crown.—(llear, hear.) A. Noble Lord had said, that
;f the Catholics were to be admitted to ail the privi-

le; el of the Constitution as fully and freely as the Protest •
ante then the King, as a Protestant, would have no se-
curity fur his Crown. But it is because none hot a Pro-
terttant can hold the Crown, that I see nothing, dengerone
in the removal of Catholic disabilities—(hear, beer)—eince
a Protestant Sovereign will have the selection of all the
great Cfficere of State, and all the most influential Officers
of ,tie Crown, so that the hi beet secut ity will exist for the
arty of the Protestant Establishments of this country.—
(Hoer, hear.)—But it is said that it is necessary, as a pre-
liminary. to pat down the Cutholie Association. I hold,
with my Noble Friend near me, that the short way to carry
that into effect is to remove the Catholic disabilities. I
hope the Noble Duke will succeed in his object; but it
will be by his second measure, and 'not by. his first. He
,cannot but remember that other. Ministers have attempted
to put down these Associations, but that they hate nut
succeeded. Lord Liverpool pertiettlarly attempted it, but
failed? But was it from want of ability in , Lord Liver-
pool that he failed ? Was it front want of zeal and per-
seer: ance ? Or was it from wept of zeal, perseverance, and
ability, in the Noble Marquis, who was then, under his
Majesty, at the head of the Irish Government, that the
suppression could not be effected? I thought, at the time
when these measures of suppression were tomer considera-
tion, and I expressed my opinion, that they must prove
utterly inefficacious, because they did not go to the root of
the evil—(hear, hear)—and because the Homan Catimlics
lied no other way of giving vent:to their grievances. You
may as well attempt to extinguish u volcano by sweeping
sway the cinders, here and there, from its crater, as to
suppress thew Associations by direct coercive ineeeures ;
and if you could succeed, the flames would burst out in :,
far more dangerous way in another quarter, though, nor' in
a way so open and visible. You may imprison the Catholic
Association in the Castle of Dublin, or in a dungcott in any
other situation ; but it is a ler sitter made of givieg vent
to the feelings of public discontent, than that fire which
for a time smoulders in the dark, to burst out at List with
a more territie conflagration. No man can be more sensible
than I am of the evils of au irresponsible body existing;
in
the country, veering with every gust and breath ore
po-
pular feeling. But the way to put an end to that state of
things is to give a more constitutional vent to tlt,t peptder
feeling—to bring the Boman Catholics to this and tea-other
House of Parliament, where the feelings of the muse of the
community may have vent, by discussion and col isien of
sentiment in Parliament. That is the mode of suppress-
ing the Catholic Association. I concur with the Noble
Lord who seconded the Address, and who spoke so warmly
and with so much goad sense, and who had the advantege
of the knowledge derived front experience in the perae
ur
anee of his duties in Ireland, that the effect of rote,. ing-
the Catholic disabilities will be to dissolve the Associetiete
Let it be remembered that the Association springs out of
repeated refusals on your part to consider the griev-
ances of which the Catholic population cemplains.--e
In 1812 you refused to listen to their emnplaints,
and to consider them with a view to a remedy, and you
had then no Association. Jo 1819 you refused to listen
to their complaints, and you had then no Association. It
was when you repeatedly turned a deaf ear to their peti-
tions and complaints that at length the discontent of the
people of Ireland found a vent through the Association ;
and now that the majority which before opposed them
are willing seriously and bona
,fide to take the subject
into consideration, the Association will soon dissolve of
itself; and I hope we shall not much* longer see this por-
tentous contest between religion and property. It is only
to be regretted that the settlement of this momentous
question did not take place long before this time. What
immense good would have been effietted if the advice of
Mr. Pitt had been followed at the time of the Union—an
advice whick did more honour to his memory as a States-
man than any other advice which Le gave, or act
which he did, during the long period of Lis adotinistra-
tien. The time, however, has at length come when
a gratifying prospeet is afforded of having- that to
mentous question settled which has so much e

*Lig most desir-
able the country for these ten years past, and ar
.f
.11y most sitteete atal
Shull
warmest support. I feel cor,fi''..eni that it is the intention
atteleh givenLojt.ct
intonayrle etittent al ohfav cearryint:
of . his Majesty's Ministers to propose the consideration of
the subject, with a view to a termination favourable to the
Catholics. I feel confident of this flout the words of the
Speech, and from the, nature of the subject itself; for it
would be madness, and something worse than madness, to
hold out these Lopes to the great body of the Catlsoficss,
and then to throw them hack again upon discontent.—
(Ilear.)—There is now an absolute necessity to enter upon,
the discussion with the serious anti bona fide iutention
come to a result favourable to the claims of 'the mit-
lions of the Roman Catholic population. The sub-
ject has often been unsuccessfully discussed Ott the peti-
tions date Catholics : but now, with the support of his.
Majesty's Ministers, there is every reasonable prospect of a
successful termination, an the greatest and most per-
d thus
mauent good will he effected for this eountry.—(ilear.l
The Earl of ABERDEEN said, the Noble Al trqu'A had
.not advert,d to some other measures mentioned in 'ois
je.ty's Speech, for which he was not more respor,sitde than
his colleagues, but in which he might, from situation
he held, be thought more interested ; and hr}: t-tese for the
purpose of expressing his readiness to gies access to evciy
epeciet of inforreatien concerning nu(z toveign policy, and
to say that he was really to enter iirAce the closest exam:ill-.
tion ofevery part of that polioyi, particularly the room. Ir.
had pursued respecting Vortugal. • Ile was quite tv,ily to
and enter into any expla44km thr,t
give every informatimk
was neeessaric, to justify what had been done I jet! be was
then sera that our for:sign policy It'oold 1x,4-ekre from the.
Noble Marquis the same praise which le had bestowed 014
the other subjects mentioned in ttia, Majesty's Speech., The
Noble Marquis would find, a•' their L trdsbips w0,u141 find,
that what had been atone respi-etin; that country w,04
strictly consistent vith the principles of justice.. His Lad,
ship again r.,-\.mssitl'his readiness, and even his anxiety, to
meet airy investigation into thAt or any other
foreign. policy the Nate Marquis might alio:,
to was then
agreed
institute:
Tin! 4,4estion that the Addrette be ' 'Viper to
put by the LORD CIIANCELLOP.
Their Lordships adjourned , hurl carried nem. con.
at few minutes past Nine

ottalthi

•
ALNWICK A-ADRES3 TO THE DUKA OF
NOR Trf 1.11 m: et On Saturday an Address was pre-
sentHl to lAki nt Alnwick ?ay upwards
of 74:1'ARfs4n4. expavihing their gratulation on his appoint-
; tint to: Coe Coverrunent of Ireland, asj their high
r,iation Lis Grace's private virtues and public ac.„ of
beneficence; and statiuz, that Ole. examPle atfordeit by his
Grace of residing on the otr.te of his ancestors 'would, if
thgenerallily fuatllotved, in'AFF.Qvethe ttondition of any -rountry—
ui decelyVAAng to the Aristocracy of that nation to
which his cAce is. tot the eve of departure.. The deputation
whe !4,4,•5er.t.e.1 the address were kind ly rexeived by his Grace,
much dime() on this" interesting occasion,
aud elpressed bint,ell in reply ;01,6 effect—" that his up.
:I
pointment to flu: Lieutenants reland had come more in
shape of a command than, areqUest, and he therefore Con-
Ili demi it 'gas duty to attend to his Sovereign ; but, from
the arrangement wllich he had made, he hoped soon again
to have the pleaaere of enjoying the society of hie Alnwick
friends.".' The character of his Grace is such as to endear
him, to who know him,
In Great Britain there is one soldier for every
1229 inhabitants, Fratire ISB, United States 1,977, Russia
77, Prussia 80, Austria 118, Netherlands 142. The re-
lation of the fleet to the population is—Great Britain, ore
ship of the, line or kigate to every 82,979 inhabitants,
France 290,909, United States 316,000, Russia 686,250,
Austria 2909,094 Netheriaris 170,556.