The Sun.
London, England, 1842-03-08 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY MORNING, MARCH 8, 1842

econd time this evening, but that the discussion upon the
subject should be posponed until Thursday evening next.
SUPPLY.—ARMY ESTIMATES.

The House having resolved itselfinToaTonimittee of
Supply-,
Sir HENRY HARDINGE rose to bring forward the
Army Estimates. He said the total number of men for
which he proposed to take the estimates this year, was
122,568 ; that number was composed of 5,808 officers,
8,674 non-commissioned officers, and 108,086 rank and
file. Last year the numbers were 121,121, therefore as
compared to the past year, there was now an addition
of 1,447 ; the Canadian regiment which were 1,100, the
St. Helena company 330 men, the augmentation to the
3d West India Regiment 330. There was a deduction
of about 600 men from that, which would leave the
number for the present year about 400 more than they
were last year. The Royal Canadian regiment had been
composed last year of ten companies, made up from the
regiments then in Canada ; the men volunteered, and
every man of them had been 15 years in the service.
There was to be an addition to the 3d West India regi-
ment. The Ist and 2d 'West India regiments now
consisted of 10 companies, and 1,000 men ; whereas the
3d regiment consisted only of 8 companies, which were
now to be raised to 10 companies, consisting of 1,000
men. Each of the three regiments were to contri-
bute to send a detachment to the western coast of Africa;
and it was proposed for this reason, that the officers of
these three corps should be augmented by two supernu-
meraries. But, as officers in that service were liable to
have their health impaired, it was agreed, by the Secre-
tary for the Colonies, the Commander-in-Chief, and the
other authorities, that, after they had served a certain
period, they should, on their return to this country, be
allowed a year's furlough to enable them to recruit their
health. It was proposed that two of those
battalions if that number were sufficient should
be stationed in the Island of Jamaica.
He had next to draw attention to the 20th page of the
Estimates, in which was a memorandum, stating that it
was intended to convert six depots into six second bat-
' talions of the same strength as six service companies.
The force of the army was now 122,000 men, being
20,000 more than it was six years ago. Since 1830 the
numbers had been several times raised and reduced,
which proved the pliability of the system, while the
number of officers remained the same. But the pressure
on the troops of the line had been very severe during
the last four years, and it was absolutely necessary that
it should be removed. We had twenty-eight battalions
in New South Wales, India, and China ; altogether we
had seventy-eight battalions abroad, and only twenty-
five battalions at home—a force that could not possibly,
relieve the former to the extent the term of their ser-
vices required. Forty-two of those battalions were in
tropical climates. At the time' of the insurrection we
had but nine battalions in North America ; they were
afterwards increased to nineteen, exclusive of some
house-raised battalions. But in his plan of increasing
each depot by making six of them consist of six
service companies of 100 men each, these would
answer to be sent to six healthy stations, such
as Gibraltar, Bermuda, and stations in the Mediterra-
nean, where they would do the duty as well as second
battalions, 'and enable the authorities ashore to relieve
those regiments that had been left abroad too long. So
then, instead of having 25 battalions ashore, we should
have:3l, and, in the event of any sudden demand on the
Government in other quarters, six battalions would be
found ashore quite ready. The depots would be an ad-
ditional expense of 9,0001., the first year, but in future, it
would be about 3,0001. a year. But to meet an expense
of 63,000/. arising from some charges already adverted
to, he proposed to reduce six men each from 50 other
battalions not employed either in the East Indies or in
North America. This would be a reduction of 3,000
men, and of 61,000/. The estimate for 95,600 men was
3,510,7741., being 70,800/. more than that of last year.
The greater part of this expense would be on account of
certain changes in the West Indies, but some would be
on account of the St. Helena corps. On the whole, there
would be an increase of about 120,0001., but there would
be to meet this, a reduction of 49,0001., of which 33,0001.
would be on account of provisions for the troops in Aus-
tralia and Canada, where the return to agriculture had
cheapened food. There was a slight increase on the
good conduct pension, the recipients being now 4,648
men ; but there were also 7,000 having marks
for good conduct who had also increased pay.
The next vote was 20,000/. for libraries at home and
abroad ; these libraries he stated had given the greatest
satisfaction. The entire vote for the land force was,
therefore, 3,581,5751. The Military College involved an
expenditure of 17,000/. a year, but this did not fall on
the public, as it was sustained by the friends of the ca-
dets who were sent there. A small expense, however,
of 575/. had been incurred for some additional buildings
that had been found necessary. The total vote for the
effective service, therefore, including the school of the
Military Asylum, and the expense of the volunteer corps,
was 3,928,961/. The next votes related to the non-effec-
tive service, in which the item of the pay of general officers
was 98,0001., an increase of 13,0001. occasioned by the pro-
motion. Pay for retired officers 66,000/.,being a decrease of
15,000/. ; for half-pay, 470,000/., being a decrease of
25,0001. 'Within the last twenty years the number of
officers on the half-pay list had considerably diminished,
and there were now upwards of 3,000 on half-pay,
a large proportion of whom would be no more fit for ser-
vice. The decrease in the number of officers, since the
Peace, was 6,745, and the decrease in charge 618,000/.
The foreign half-pay this year was estimated at 58,0001.,
being a decrease on last year of 2,175/. The widows'
pension fund this year would require 141,000/. For pen-
sioners, at Chelsea and elsewhere, 1,251,414 L, being a
decrease of 7,492 t. The decrease in the number of re-
gular pensions since the year 1820 was 17,000/., and the
decrease in expense was 107,000/. 10,0001. had been
taken for last year, in order to make another ar-
rangement for the number of the pensioners. The
grant they required for the superannuated list
was 41,000/., being a decrease of 2,0004 The whole
charge for the non-effective service was 264,000/, being 38,0001.
less than last year ; and the whole charge for the effective ser-
vice was 3,963,000/. The total grant required was 6,193,000/.,
being an increase on the grant of last year of 34,829/. He hardly
knew whether any further explanation would be expected from
hint. With the best intention to carry on the military affairs of
this nation with the strictest regard to economy, ho trnsted the
House would agree with him, that efficiency was tnebest economy.
He ha 4 now to move that the land forces be increased to
95,628 amen. In the course of the present year a number of
battalions would return to this country, so that by the end of
the year the number of battalions here would be 32 instead of
25, as at present.
Lord HOWICK, who spoke in an unusually low and indis-
tinct tone, said that he had no objection to the vote which had
just been put into the hands of the Speaker, and all that he
would take the liberty of doing was to make a few
observations on one or two points in the speech of
the Right Honourable and Gallant Gentleman. With
respect to the augmentation to be made in the West
India regiments, he heard the statements of the Right Hon.
and Gallant Officer with great pleasure. No person could
doubt the policy of increasing those corps, and preventing
thereby the great mortality that ensued among the men. He
hoped the state of the barracks in the West Indies would be
also improved. The Right Hon. Gentleman knew to what he
alluded, and the frightful sufferings that ensued from the state
of the barracks. The Right Hon. and Gallant Officer had
said that efficiency was in these things true economy. He
(Lord H.) perfectly agreed with him, and he believed there
was no greater extravagance than to allow British soldiers to
remain for thirty-five years in such a climate as the West
India Islands. The Noble Lord then referred to the proposed
measure of the Gallant Officer (Sir H. Hardinge with regard
to the advantage of an increase of six regiments, but in so low
a tone that we could not catch the precise import of his
opinion. We understood him to say that he thought the
matter might be better left to the Executive, and that he did
not agree to the arrangements made with respect to the Colonels.
He confessed that it appeared to him that the arrangement
made by the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite was for the
purpose of keeping up a system which he believed in prac•
rice was liable to great inconvenience. Two battalions were
to be sent to certain healthy garrisons. Now he thought that
all regiments ought to take their equal proportions of good
Ilneamet
eana thoughtd,
othtetho en teh aht
hegreat
proposed
arrangementr relief li fs
proposedowmo dt
time
by
anote.e,Gs.tfe,nti
andtghivee nRb
itodht
the leHimloi
ago had been carried into effect. The Right Hon. Gentleman
stated that a number of libraries had already been esta-
blished, and also that the soldiers were ready to avail them-
selves of the opportunity of self-instruction thus offered to
them. This was undoubtedly a subject of congratulation.
Upon the whole he felt that the vote which the Right Hon.
Gentleman demanded was one which, under the circumstances,
the House should have no hesitation in granting.—(Hear. )
Lord ARTHUR LENNOX was glad the Right Hon.
Gentleman had announced his intention of making an increase-
in the Army; and he only regretted that that increase was not
larger. Looking to the state of our relations with China and
India, and to the unfortunate feeling of jealousy which existed
towards this country—looking across the Atlantic, and to the
frightful sources of misunderstanding between the United
States and this country, he was afraid they would not long
enjoy the blessings of peace. He did not think either that the
forces could now be relieved as often as was desirable. There
was another subject to which he wished to allude, and one of
the greatest importance to the Army—he meant the retiring
pensions to the soldiers. He did not think that, after 25 years'
service, a miserable pittance of 6d. a day was a sufficient
compensation for the labours and perils of such a service.
He would call the. attention of the. Committee to the fact that
feel it his duty, as long as he
For his own part, he should ever
his humble
voice in favour of
had a seat in that House, to raise
these men were for the most prnarotsttolfaariltyhuronkaebnleintoeoobntsatptutthioenir
own livelihood, being for the.
the old soldiers in the army. There was one question which he
dthe
six to be supplied to
ofp elannneyea:
It was with respect to the a
wished to put to the R
was to be done with those
wished to know what
six depots. He
were reduced. He would sug-
ight Hon. and Gallant Officer opposite.
accoutrements when the depots
fa
ad
day. to the pay of lance-corporals, dayd Tog that one
°I
stripes. He thought that would
serjeants, for their additional
conduct regulations.
be an admirable adjunct to the goodand Gallant Officer's
Mr. MACAULAY said the Hon.
Best before he sat down, the propriety of
He estimate was so unexceptionable, that desired, howeveddress
r, to have
House as shortly as possible.
some explanation with respect to the proposed remuneration
to six colonels of infantry'
The report stated that 1,000/.
he would a the
d add 250/ a year in the case
informed why it was proposed
in question. With re-pert
to the Canadian plan, he (Mr. Ma-
caulay) should say that there was a much better chance of sue-
a year was a sufficient allowance. He wished, therefore, to be
cess by the proposed plan than if the Right Hon. Gentleman
he wished to ask the Right Hon.
further to say, except that
respect to the Lunatic Asylum at
Gentleman a question with
state---in
• disgraceful s a e—in an absolutely
Chatham, which was in a
had half soldiers and half cultivators. He had ng
Gentleman (Sir H. Hard'
know whether the Right Hon. Inge)
izin the Chelsea pensioners.
f.
had taken any means of reoraaosai
E said the subject o the Lunatic
Sir HlslltY HARDING
rs, he
was sorry to say that the
state of that Institution was such
as to
Asylum at Chatham had not escaped his notice • '
and with
respect to the Chelsea pensioners,
change of its constitution necessary as soon as possible. He
hoped that the number of men in the East Indies
and North America in
would a short time diminish
under circumstances of more tranquil times. With
regard to the hint thrown out by the Noble Lord oppo-
site (Lord Howick) as to his plan of depots, he (Sir Henry
Hardinge) must observe, that he had seen the whole of the
Noble Lord's arrangements, and he did not think that the
Noble Lord's depot would be so effective as his (Sir H. Har-
dinge's) would. -The Duke of Wellington concurred in that
opinion also. He (Sir H. Hardinge) was not aware that he
had any further remark to make on the statement ,
of the Noble Lord, excepting one assertion of his .

respecting barracks in the West Indies, which the
Noble Lord stated to be in a most disgraceful state.
When, in 1840, Lord Vivian was Master-General of the Ord-
nance, a motion had been made for the production of papers on
this subject, he (Sir H. Ilardinge) asked whether there was
any foundafion for the disgraceful state in which the barracks
in the West Indies were described to be. The Master-General
assured the House that the barracks in the West Indies were
M an admirable state. In the following year (1841) the
Master-General was placed in the Upper House, and he thought
the Noble Lord ought to have avoided such a remark in Lord
ViTian's absence. All the reports he had heard of these bar-
racks gave a description of them diametrically the reverse of
that of the Noble Lord. In reply to the observations of the
Noble Lord (A. Lennox) behind him, he stated that the batta-
lions would be disposed of and managed, as regarded their
accoutrements, as heretofore.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL remarked, with respect to the
plan of depots, that the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman ap-
peared totally to have abandoned the plan of depot companies.
He gave up the advantage of a certain number of places at
home where recruits might be received, and a certain propor-
tion of officers retained. He did not wish to enter into any
controversy as to the plan of the Hon. and Gallant Member,
who was fully competent to consider a question of this kind;
his long experience in military affairs, and in the civil direction
of matters of this nature, hilly entitled him to great con-
sideration when he brought forward a plan which he
thought best under present circumstances. Considering
the last, explanation mado by the Right Honourable Gen-
tleman, and the circumstances of the case, he thought the
present plan was most wise. If a general plan an general
grounds were proposed, he might alter his views, but in the
present instance he did not wish to say he had a different
opinion from the Right Hon. and Gallant Officer. He was
glad to hear that there were to be only two battalions in
Jamaica, and that there was to be a permanent barracks. No-
thing, in his opinion, was more advantageous than that the
troops in the West Indies should be placed in as healthy situa-
tions as were consistent with the defence of tnose islands.
Some correspondence had taken place between the Ordnance
Department and the Secretary of State with respect to the
barracks in Barbadoes ; but he would allude to the subject
when the Ordnance Estimates came before the House.

Sir H. HARDINGE defended the system of depots he
;proposed, and adduced the authority of the Duke of Welling-
ton, who assigned, as one of his reasons, that in case of emer-
gency they could be raised into battalions.
Lord II OWICK considered the present system was, as far
as the West Indies were concerned, an abandonment of the
depot system.
Mr. WILLIAMS asked the Secretary at War if the ex-
penses attending the army in China were included in the Es-
timates?

Sir HENRY HARDINGE said that no part of the ex-
penses of the Chinese Expedition was included in the Esti-
mates. The expenses of that expedition would have to be
settled between the East India Company and the Government,
and would he provided for under the head of Army Extraor-
dinaries.

Mr. WILLIAMS was not surprised at the agreement in
opinion between the present and the late Secretary at War
and the Noble Lord the Member for London, seeing that there
was no great difference between the Army Estimates this year
and the last. He thought the expenses of the army in China ought
to have been included in these estimates. He protested against
the plan of voting these estimates before they had considered
the ways and means, and thought it would have been a pre-
ferable plan for the Right Hon. Baronet, at the head of the
Government, to have made his financial statement before these
estimates had been voted. The great charge against the late
Government was that they had expended a much larger sum
than the amount of the revenue. It was true that Government
had done so, and the late Chancellor of the Exchequer had
proposed an addition of 10 per cent. to the taxation, to make
good the deficiency. What was the result ? Why, it was found
that the people would pay no more taxes, and the consequence
was that instead of realising two millions and a half,
there was a considerable falling off of the revenue after
these taxes were added. He thought the House
ought to know how those monies were to be
raised. The revenue was short last year, and all the votes
required were larger than in the previous year. The forces
this year were larger than they had been any year since 1817 ;
now such being the case, he should like to know what there
was in the present position of the country to require a larger
military force than was required during the last twenty-four
years? The Hon. Gentleman oppasite had spoken of
,the re-
lations of this country with America and France. Now, for
his own part, he saw nothing in those relations, if properly
managed, that was calculated to lead to hostilities. In
1822 the number of the military force was 30,000 less than
that proposed for the present year. There was nothing, in his
opinion, to warrant the large increase in the army in the pre-
I sent year, as compared with other periods. He should, there-
fore, propose that the number of men for the home service
should be reduced by 11,000, so that the estimates under this
head should be placed on :the same footing as in the
year 1837. If any of the number of men proposed for
the home service were destined for the war in China,
he might not now have proposed such a reduction ; but he had
distinctly understood that such was not the intention of the
Right Hon. Gentleman.—(" No, no.") He understood that
such was the case. He submitted, however, that as we had
unfortunately entered into the Chinese war it should be carried
on with vigour, as the most likely means to bring it to a speedy
termination. Now, after 21 years, the amount of half-pay was
nearly the same. At the former period, it was 2,264,1341., now
it was but 5,0001. less, he meant for the retired allowances al-
together. The officers on effecctive service were 5,808; there
were 385 retired on full pay ; 504 foreign officers, exclusive of
those the number of officers on half-pay was 5,118 ; what ne-
cessity was there for so large a number on half-pay? The num-
ber of Captains on full-pay was 1,347 ; on half-pay 1,187 ; of
lieutenants on full-pay, 1866; on half-pay 1461, of whom lie
was sure a large number would be very glad to be put on full
service; but they had no parliamentary influence to get them
on.—(" Oh.") He knew, this was the reason.—(" Oh.")
He thought the number of general officers too large, and there
had lately been a promotion. There were 452 general officers,
that was four general officers to every regiment of the line ;
he should like to know what necessity there was for this num-
ber. The Army of the United States consisted only of 12,000
men, but they had only three officers. He thought the allow-
ance for pensions, and allowances to widows was very large.
It appeared that there were 2,950 widows receiving pensions;
whether they were bestowed on representations made of some
services performed by the deceased officer, or whether granted
to the widow of every officer of a certain rank, he- did not
know, and should like to be informed. The sum granted for
pension was 371,0001. ; it of course held out an excellent op-
portunity for old military gentlemen to get young wives, but it
was very hard for the country to be called upon to pay such
; a sum as this. It might be unpleasant to the many military
gentlemen in the House, to hear such remarks, but in the pre-
sent dilapidated state of the finances, he thought it his duty to
state them. The whole amount of the half-pay was 2,264,000/.
and there was a deficiency in the revenue of nearly three
millions; how it was to be raised he knew not. Thera might
be a great reduction in this branch without injury to the
public service. In the French army there was no such thing,
and the consequence was, that officers of high rank were
obliged to turn their attention to other means of support.
The three regiments of Horse Guards, commonly called House-
hold Troops, consisted of 1,308 men, and they cost the country
85,0001, The pay of these three regiments was 24,100/. more
than the pay of any three regiments of cavalry, consisting of an
equal number of men. The three regimenta of Goot Guards
consisted of 5,287 men, and they received 39,8181. a-year,
being 16,9181. more than wss received by any
three regiments of the line, consisting of an
equal number of men. He could see no reason why the regi-
ments of Horse and Foot Guards should be better paid than
other cavalry and infantry regiments, for their duties, so far
from being more onerous, were much lighter than those de-
volving on regiments of the line. He should, therefore, move
that the second vote in the estimates be reduced by 16,918/.,
being the amount of the difference between the pay of there-
giments of the guards and the cavalry and regiments of the line.
With regard to the Horse Guards, he believed they did not
serve except in Belgium.—(Cries of " Spain.") That was
before.—( Laughter.) At all events, the regiments of the line
were moved about, and the Lfficers of those regiments were sub-
ject, in consequence, to great additional expense. The pay of
Colonels in the Horse Gaurds was 1,8001. a-year, while the pay
of Colonels of regiments of the line was only 900/. Colonels
of the Foot Guarcs had 1,2001., while Colonels of infantry regi-
ments of the line had only 6001., and there were 36 with only
5001. The disproportion between Lieutenant- Colonels was
also great. The pay of the soldiers of the Horse Guards was
Is. 111/2d, that of regiments of the line ls. 3d. ; the pay of the
Foot Guards is ls. Id., that of the regiments of the line ls.
But the cost in the maintenance was equally disproportionate.
The cost for the Horse Guard is 681., which is 211. more than
was paid to the cavalry soldier in the regiments of the line.
'There was another vote, to which he had a decided objection,
and with respect to which he should divide the House, he al-
luded to the charge for the Yeomanry Cavalry ; he could see
no necessity for that, and therefore he should vote against it.
He wished to know whether any part of the 95,000 men were in-
tended for China, because if they were not, he should move that
11,000 should be struck off the proposed number.
Sir 11. DOUGLAS was not at all surprised at the mild
tone taken by Hon. Gentlemen opposite, because he was sure
they must be sensible that the course adopted by his Right
Hon. and Gallant Friend to meet the present exigencies, ought
to have been adopted long ago, by those who were at the time in
power. Such a course ought to have been pursued at the
time of the rebellion in Canada. He would now come to the
Chinese war, and he would say that for many years past the
strength of the British army had never been such as to enable
the Commanders to perform the services required of them, and
the force now was totally inefficient. With regard to the war
in Affghanistan, he was of opinion that it was the insufficiency
of forces which compelled the military officers there to act in suds
a manner as they would not otherwise have done ; and be
charged those who did not then increase the forces, that they
had forced officers who knew their duty, and who knew it well,
to deviate from the rules of warfare, and to do that which
they knew not to be safe. He therefore congratulated the
Secretary of War for what he had now done ; but he (Sir H.
Douglas) thought that the measures now proposed should
have been taken long before. He should make no more obser-
vations on this point. He should now touch on what had been
said relative to the means of improving the character and
comfort of the British soldiers ; and here he must congratulate
the Hon. Member for Sunderland, the late Secretary of War,
inasmuch as not one request which he (Sir H. D.) had made,
to that Noble Lord relative to the improvement of the soldier
was neglected by him. When he (Sir H. D. ) was Governor-
General of the lonian Islands, there was only one chaplain in
the whole force, and he had seen soldiers dying in the hos-
pitals praying in vain for spiritual relief. He had represented
this to that Noble Lord, who had added another chaplain to the
service ; he then asked for four Roman Catholic Chaplains,
and the Noble Lord sent them three. He ( Sir H. D.) was of
opinion that means ought to be taken to instruct the soldier.
He had always observed that the man who took to his books
made the better soldier. He was also of opinion that
some system should be introduced and established in
every regiment to enable the soldier to save his money.
He had introdnced a savings' bank in his own
regiment (the 52d Light Infantry), and in a very shot t time
there was 5001. deposited in it. The Regiment, however,
was soon after broken up, and that money was returned to the
soldiers ; but he regretted to say that many irregularities
were the consequence of the money being returned, and in
some instances he was sorry to say that Courts-Martial had to
be held. He was sure that the Hon. and Gallant Member
for Marylebone, who so eloquently depicted last evening the
effects of the want of a full complement in his service, would
feel the necessity of a full complement in the army. But he
did not think that if a French fleet had come upon the Eng-
lish fleet, they (the English fleet) would have. been beaten,
He thought the Hon. Member's practice would go against his
words, and that the gallant men on board the Powerful would
not have given way before a French fleet.
Sir C. NAPIER said he did not wish it to go forth to the
country, or to be generally understood that the British navy
would not ha.-,e done their duty, and have done it well, if they
got into action with the enemy ; but he did maintain,
and he would tell the House and the country, that he
conscientiously believed that if the British navy had
come into contact with the French after they had begun
their operations in Syria and got sickly, though they would
have done their duty to the utmost of their power, they would
have been beaten.--( Hear.) Hon. Gentlemen should not
attempt to depreciate their enemies. He..
in would re-
mind the House of what took place America.
when they held the Americans in contempt, and sent over an
manned navy (they had a civilian for the First Lord of the
Admiralty then) and the British flag was tarnished.
Sir THOMAS TROWBRIDGE said he could not concur
in the opinion that if the British fleet had been attacked in

the Mediterranean it would have been defeated. There were
at that time 750 supernumerary marines at the disposal of that
fleet, who could have been put on board those ships if required,
mad he (Sir Thomas Trowbridge) confidently stated that the
result of any action with the French fleet would be very diffe •
rent from what had been stated by the lion, and Gallant Gen-
tleman. He thought his Gallant Friend's ideas were quite
extraordinary, and he must say that he had been much aston-
ished to hear so many Naval Officers speaking in such a way
as not to uphold but altogether depreciate the character of the
British Navy. On another occasion he should speak more at
length on this subject.
Sir C. NAPIER wished to explain. There never were 750
marines at their disposal. There were 250 marines, but that did
not supply the deficiency, for they were 100 men short, and had
134 sick. The Gallant Officers there did not know what it was
to be beaten. He did.—(Laughter.) He was beaten once by
the French fleet, when he was under-manned. He was
beaten ; his mainmast knocked down ; and if the French had
stuck to him, he should not have been there now.
Captain LAYARD wished to know if it was the inten-
tion of the Government to make any alterations as to
the time when soldiers might obtain a free discharge. He had
been informed that at present, after having served ten years, a
cavalry soldier could obtain his discharge by paying 211., and
an infantry soldier by the payment of 151. After 12 years' ser••
vice, a cavalry soldier must pay 151., and an infantry'soldier 10/.
for his discharge. After 14 years' service, a cavalry soldier
must pay 191. arid an infantry soldier 51. After 15 years' ser-
vice the cavalry soldier must pay 61. and the infantry soldier
gets a free discharge. He (Capt. Layard) believed it would
add to the benefit of the service, if, after 10 years, an in-
fantry soldier might claim a free discharge. He believed
that, considering the position of the country at present, that it
was absolutely necessary that there should be more men. If
anything should occur in India, our forces would, no doubt, be
attacked by the Burmese, and the probability was we should
be defeated.

Sir H. HARDINGE said the improvements which were
proposed would have the most beneficial effect upon the army.
i _Many fathers of families, who had formerly prevented their sons
from entering the army, were now infinitely more inclined to
let their sons enlist. With regard to the pensioners it was a
I very difficult question. He had already frequently expressed
his sentiments in that House and elsewhere upon that subject.
They were reduced 17,000/. since 1829, yet the question in-
,
volvedso many grave and serious considerations, and more par-
ticularly considering the state of the finances of the country,
the question deserved the most serious attention of Govern-
] ment.--( Hear, hear.) In 1829 when he first formed his war-
' rant it was submitted to the then Government with the Duke
of Wellington at its head, and they gave their concurrence to
that plan ; with regard to the amendment of the Hon. Mem-
ber for Coventry, he (Sir H. Hardinge) hoped he would not
press it to a division. With regard to the pensions of half-pay
officers, there was a very large reduction. Out of 17,426,
nearly one-third had died, the diminution in the public ex-
penses was 618,9001. He could go through the estimate,
giving an account in detail, but it would really occupy the
time of the Committee too much, if he were to attempt to
answer every question of the Hon. Gentleman. There were
no less than 6,745 officers who had died off the half-pay list,
and he hoped that would satisfy the appetite—(A laugh)—of
the Hon. Gentleman, opposite (Mr. Williams). The present
number of troops are not kept in this country merely to keep
down disturbance, but it was proposed to increase them on ac
coont of the pressure which was so great upon them abroad.
That pressure was so great, that many regiments had been
fifteen and twenty years in India. Was that a fit or a proper
state of things ?—( Hear, hear.) It was to relieve that pressure
that the increase of troops was proposed; it was absolutely re-
quested both for the efficiency of the service and to secure to
the troops that humane and generous support which they ought
to receive.—( Hear.)
' Viscount HO WICK, who spoke in a very inaudible tone of
voice, was understood to say that this question should be con-
sidered with reference to the finances of the country. lie was
rejoiced to see that the Right Hon. and Gallant Officer was
now satisfied with the effect of the warrant of 1833. The con-
cluding observations of the Noble Viscount were inaudible in
the Gallery.
Sir H. HARDINGE said the Noble Viscount must have
misconceived what he stated, as to pensions ; his opinions had
undergone no change. When he brought the subject under
the consideration of the Government of that day, they had ap-
proved of his (Sir H. Hardinge's) plan. However he was
satisfied that a great modification must take place even in the
existing warrant, and he still reiterated the opinion, that the
warrant proposed by Sir J. Cam Hobhouse was very moderate.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that when the Right Honour-
able Gentleman stated that Sir J. Cam Hobhouse's warrant was
insufficient, it was to be hoped he (Sir H. Hardinge)
would not fall into the error of falling back upon the former
warrant, and giving soldiers retiring pay whose conduct did
not entitle them to it ; he (Lord J. Russell) had received let-
ters from several Colonels in the army, complaining that men
who had conducted themselves in an improper manner were
intitled to, and had received pensions, just as well as if they
had been persons of good conduct.
Mr. WILLIAMS did not understand what the Right Hon.
Gentleman (Sir H. Hardinge) meant by expressing a hope
that the death of so many half-pay officers should satisfy his
(Mr. Williams's) appetite.—( Laughter. ) He did not know
what that meant, but he supposed it was a military term—
( Laughter I—however, he was sent there by his constituency,
and when he saw the state of distress and destitution in which
the country was placed, he did not think that the Army should
be exempted from duties which they had formerly
performed ; he objected to all further taxation, and
he had also to state that he was not at ail
satslied with explanation which the Right Hon. Gentleman
had given with regard to officers on half-pay. He had met
many of those gentlemen in all ranks and stations of society,
and he knew that many of them were most anxious to serve—
their health and constitution enabled them to do so; but he
(Mr. Williams) dared say that in consequence of the number of
applications for ensigncies, that were from time to time made
to Hon. Gentlemen who had the disposal of these situations, it
might have been deemed expedient not to call upon the services
of retired officers ; however, these were the things which in-
creased the public expenditure.—( Hear, hear.) Still
after the statement of the Right Hon Gentleman opposite,
that such a large force was absolutely required for the public
service, he (Mr. Williams) would not feel himself justified in
proposing any amendment, and he would then fore withdraw
his motion.—( Hear.) The motion was then withdrawn.
Mr. O'CONNELL wished to make one observation in re-
ference to the Canada question. He had lately, upon more oc-
casions than one, the necessity of calling the attention of the
House to the party spirit, of a very violnt description, which
existed among the Militia corps in Canada. Now there was
nothing more remarkable among the soldiery of this country
than their total abstinence from all party spirit. In Ireland
and other places, whenever the military happened to be
called upon, they never upon any occasion whatever
evinced the least prejudice or party feeling ; it was not so in
Canada or amongst the local soldiery there. Now, if it was
intended to raise the corps in Canada, that evil would not be
sufficiently guarded against.
Sir H. HARDINGE—The men are British soldiers.
Mr. O'CONNELL—Then the recruiting is not to be in
Canada ?
Sir H. HARDINGE—No.
Mr. O'CONNELL then stated, since that was the case, the
objections he was about to make were removed.
On the vote being proposed that 3,500,000/. be granted for
the expenses of her Majesty's land forces for the ensuing year,
Mr. WILLIAMS moved an amendment that that sum be
reduced by 63,980/., on account of the extra pay given to her
Majeaty's Horse and Life Guards.
Sir H. HARDINGE said before the Hon. Gentleman per-
sisted in dividing the House upon his amendment, he ought to
be aware that for the last twenty-five years that question had
been considered as determined both in Parliament and in Com-
mittee,:and also by those who were termed the Liberal party. On
the whole it had been taken that the Guards had always per-
formed their duties in London in a most efficient manner.
The residence of a soldier in London was much more expensive
than country quarters. Its fact, it was well known and ad-
mitted that the officers of the Guards had given their services to
the country almost for nothing.—( Hear, hear.) In the field,
as well as for their subordination to the civil authorities of the
country, and the admirable manner in which they invariably
conducted themselves, there was no body of men more dis-
tinguished than her Majesty's Guards—(Hear, hear)—nor
better adapted to the performance of their duties. Under such
circumstances he hoped the Hon. Gentleman would not press
his amendment to a division.
Colonel RAWDON said he would walk out of the House
if the Honourable Member for Coventry pressed his motion
to a division. With • regard to the addition to the expenses
upon the country, which had been alluded to, he should state
that the difference between an ensign's pay and the pay of an
officer of the same rank in the Guards was only three-pence a
day; when the Committee remembered that an officer in the
Guards was obliged to live in London at great expense, in his
own lodgings, having not the benefit of mess—having not the
benefits of barracks, or fuel, or light, or any of those other ad-
vantages which were afforded to officers of the Line, he was
sure the Hon. Member for Coventry must see that three-pence
a day for an officer of the Guards beyond the pay of an
officer of the Line was very insufficient.—( Hear, hear. )
Ile believed that the difference between the pay of a Lieuten-
ant of the Line and one of the Guards was 10d. per day. The
higher the rank of each officer, of course the larger his pay and
the greater the difference. It must be notorious to every one
that in London the expenses of an officer were much greater
i than in other places, and the pay of those quartered there ought
accordingly to be higher. However, of course it was for the
House to decide the question.
Colonel THOMAS WOOD said that whatever might be
the advantages which the Household troops possessed, they well
earned them. It was not for him to draw any comparisons be-
tween the various branches of her Majesty's troops ; but he
must say that the Household troops were as good and as efficient
as any branch of the troops in her Majesty's service.
Mr.WIi.LIAMS had only referred to the difference between
the pay of the officers of the Line and of those of the Guards.
He had not raissd any question whether they were paid too
much or too little, nor had he made any observation relative, to
the conduct of the Guards. However, he was not aware that
the Household troops were in any degree superior to those of
the Line, and he should divide the Committee on the vote.
Captain BERKELEY requested the Hon. Gentleman not
to press his amendment to a division. If he did so, he (Capt.
B.) should vote against him.
The Committee divided, when there appeared--
For the motion
For the amendment l2
Majority
—132
The vote was then agreed to.
The following votes were then agreed to :-
166.922/. for defraying the charges and expenses of general
staff officers.
82,467/. allowance for the principal public officers of the
Military Department.
5301. for repairing the damages done to the Military College
by the thunder-storm in May, 1841 ; and 15,0901. for defray-
ing the expenses of the Royal Military Asylum and the Hiber-
nian Military Schools.
On the vote that 82,458/. be granted to her Majesty for de-
fraying the charges of the Volunteer Corps being put,
Mr. WILLIAMS said that he would take the sense of the
Committee on that vote. If Mr. Hume were in the House,
he would have pressed the motion to a division.
The Committee then divided, and the numbers were—
For the grant .................... .... 133
Against it
Majority for the grant .............. —ll6
The vote was then agreed to.
The following votes were then put, and agreed to without
discussion :

98,000/. for the pay of general officers.
6ti,000/. for the full-pay of retired officers of her Majesty's
Lnd forces.

472,0001. for the half-pay and allowances of retired officers of
her Majesty's land forces.
58,4331. for the half-pay and reduced allowances of the
officers of the foreign corps.
On the vote of 141,4931. for the pensions and allowances to
the widows of officers,
Mr. WILLIAMS said, perhaps the Gallant Officer would
have no objection to explain the principle on which these
pensions were granted. He was more particularly induced to
ask this question, from observing that a great number of the
recipients were widows of officers of low rank. For instance,
there were 824 widows of lieutenants, and 245 of ensigns and
cornets. He wished to know whether they were the widows of
officers who had died in actual servicu, or after they had
retired.

Sir H. HARDINGE stated unless he officer had retired on
half-pay, for wounds or infirmities contracted in the service, the
widow was not entitled to a pension; or if he retired after

t
wa 'seen ty
theyears
os.e ri‘vi iecnei,btelri ehna tdh
ae
lwuiddeodwt
(7. a so f a
al sno
oel
do t iotffil eede. r
roTtt!
rsing, and thus entailing a heavy expense on the ccuntry,:
barred by the regulation that if an officer married after the al
of sixty, his widow was not entitled to a pension.
IloAtilor.urCablieljtTGEelntitlheiandanbeeonv;o•aticteh:ngbufot r
atsh eh
een ttrvaanscen of
r,
his place; he must throwi himself on the court,!:.
of the House, as he wished to state a fact relst
to she character of a gentleman.
the
NavyH HEAstRi
mDaltNGeswEo
would
i emoamteedotno
duringthe
he entlmanwttiels
evening,
e
he would have the opportunity of making his statement.
Mr CURTEIS acceded to the proposition.l.
The following grants were then severally agreed to : 1`20,01,
for the insrease of allowances consequent on the p osustio.e:
1,251,414/. for defraying the charges of Chelsea and Kilts
ham Hospitals. e of
41,0001. for allowances and compensations in the oati!rs,
superannuations, and retired allowances to persons formerly be
longing to the civil establishments of the army.
Mi. WILLIAMS could not help being struck with the jars
sum Sir setH down to the retired clerks.
. HARDINGE stated that they were amost deservthireir
class of men, and mentioned the case of Mr. 31oore, the
br
of Sir J. Moore, who, because he was obliged to reside Tit of
voluntarily and from patriotic motives, resigned a pen' s°
800/. per annum. The vote was then agreed to.
THE NAVESTIMATS. teil
he isras
On the motion that a sum not exceeding E
2,950/. ',thea re'
to her Majesty to defray the expenses of the office for
gister of merchant seaman, at 01
Mr. CURTEIS said he would not trouble the holt , ha'
greater length than he could avoid, but considering
ttras
''velled
ratter of a young man of importance, and having tethat
sixty miles for the purpose of vindicating it, he tras„esch
of
the House would grant him a patient hearing. The ;fated i 0
the Gallant Captain opposite (Captain Rous) rer-
the Morning Chronicle in reference to Mr. Elton, a.:l from
incorrect. In the first place he differed very mater sea be
the Gallant Captain, the Member for Westminster, "'hos or
stated that the Admiralty had not supported the died tenet
the Navy by remitting the remaining portion of the seeerallSt
He believed that he spoke the sentiments of society gea,
and the world at large, when he declared that "oil
their convict ion that the sentence originally that the
upon Mr. Elton was an unnecessarily severe one, ants 'Son mAdmiralty had exercised a sound and judicious discre toos
extending their clemency to that gentleman. He was apt 'll
with the Gallant Officers of the Navy, as to the "fssri
etiquette displayed by a Midshipman, in requesting a -0,0
not from a commanding officer, but from a superte.rsssio,
in the Navy. The application was made by a alidslurs,
a gentleman, who had very
recently been made a Captie; St't
who had served as Lieutenant in a ship .in win's, tt,
Elton was Midshipman. It was an application, net IP'
Gallant Captain had stated, that he would grant ssfis
to a gentleman who was travelling on the coast doe!
but that he would allow a boat, after convent* e
, Williams to his own ship, to proceed from thence totbasitioall
of Syria, which would have occupied twenty minutes atalithatiej,4
time. No answer was returned to the application, „Or
it was proved to be not an unreasonable one, by the liae-
one of the Lieutenants of the ship, viva yore, made toll
, request to Captain Williams, and was refused. fles de(
surprized that Midshipmen of the Navy should draw ,ig-up bt
slaves, when such servile marks of distinction were kePt updet
tween the Captains of the Navy and those who we,riebiritsej;
their command. He begged to say that those Ali"oeta'
had the same feelings as their superior officers ; that, g`gatitf,j
speaking, they were their equals in birth andh is;
, and that there ought not therefore to -eof6e.;
a distinction between them that a young ue/tA
a Midshipman, might not in the most polite terms tria`saael!)
• request as had been made in this case. The favour Tortsiio
was of the most trivial description ; had he (;11r' 1d
, been a traveller in that part of the world, he We'catio'
thought it ungenerous and most unkind of anY fasstify"
in the Navy to deny to him so slight at,,,
Not only in his (Mr. Curteis) view of t'-0
ter had he erred greatly, Sin refusing to extend she
a favour to a brother officer. Previous to this affaitgedihrsi
not known either of the parties concerned. Having, he "os
Elton since, and thinking his case one of hardsn'Plie
taken up the matter upon public grounds. belie
, I came to a point in which he did riot
to say that Mr: Elton was in the wrong' letter
, (Mr.
C
urteis) did not stand there to defend tnato (Re,
which, in a moment of impatience and anger, he wetet ,
tain Williams; he hesitated not to sly that for tha 13at'
dent letter, he deserved dismissal from the service' 6fitor
should be recollected that he afterwards took the yell of 0;
portunity of offering an apology. What was the demaafrhatleits
[ tain Williams ?He demanded not only an opology thStoil
but also an apology for the original letter, requsstits foeog
would confer upon Mr. Elton the favour of allowing "'sisal 0
to be taken from the vessel to the shore. New, that at's fortioi
was necessary, and ought to have been promptly give:us it is
seeond letter, there could be no manner of doubt ; "'sed
not equally clear that an apology was ref too
the first. Mr. Elton was afterwards broug of t
' court-martial, and he was bold to say, in the face otes"
iiriroeugsnel,arai
tnide s ofb
but
the
thatworld, e
rneowt
eindeed that
verya th euyt;ett
•Ars'i otibscatt'iet
stances attending the court-martial. He belies- 0e of
stated an undeniable fact, when he asserted that °i on,
officers who sat as the judges upon that 00c•-:itseLy
. called upon to give his testimony as a for
and he had the authority of officers of hot" for ;t
slims, that it was a most unusual circurnstatiFtettess,
Officer presiding as a Judge to be called as a wireere,',-,0
j was indeed true that he was called also for the deisiost"l3;
that the evidence on the one side might be weighed larger
on the other; but for the defence, or for the e the e 1
believed that there was great irregularity to the fis
ceeding. But he believed further, that to ta r
of the world it did seem extraordinary that Sece,
son should be first dismissed from her I‘l2.ie' es"l
vice, and then, when he no longer belonged
for almost an indefinite time, the sentence was thats‘iffad
be imprisoned, but that his imprisonment vt)
commence until after he had arrived in Engiatrireateass
consequence was that this young man was
impel that a prisoner for several months before his imp
in the Marshalsea commenced. And he contend
' was but an act of justice on the pait of the AdnairaLYz.4.4,l?,
that fact into consideration. Magistrates at Quarter ?S":6
j,
ST re° '
account the confinement which had been su e CsP„
and Judges at Assize, were in the constant habit of taini'r
fore a prisoner was brought to trial. The Gallatoeatoest.
tain had asserted that that portion of the impfoiLt
to tlitt sooai
could not properly form a portion of the sentence.
.iroct Chi
tautly was a very extraordinary assertion. The (17- that
tain, the Member for Westminster, had assertr-, mice ‘-'",s
additional imprisonment was caused by the circtial,';o his eis
the comrades of this Gallant Midshipman—not onYci to
ship but throughout the fleet—had intends,f:)jev saeantss
him a triumphal dinner, that was to say, r, ,hie br
give him a farewell dinner. Was that any grotto° .„ shaliV
ditional imprisonment? He saw the Gallant Captat'i,„ Gslis
head, but he appealed from the Gallant Captain t°,. ,se? st/
Admiral. Which of these authorities was he to heittikiq
doubtedly on that occasion he was rather r
.) et
Admiralty under his shelter. —( Great laugh e;ht,
entirely approved of their conduct —he tlitlloo.
showed themselves to be men of feeling and dise'iosl alb'
their conduct, in reference to this matter, they exerae y
per discretion, and showed that they would not '`)Cartr,ol
selves to be misled by others. That was his Olt* icios4
opinion of their conduct, and he felt sure that that 0P of?
re-echoed without those walls. He now came tosoy
point. He believed that the Admiralty would hacetrs
the sentence on the young man's return to this coriat-or(10,
he not, with a fatality which certainly seemed estr-strlts?
brought himself again into a scrape—( Laughter )•,,„ sist'oS
now complained of in the Gallant Captain oppos"'"c00
that he had asserted that Mr Elton gave the lie to the hi
der of the ship in which he was placed, but as he bad tlstia,
yrivate that he had forgot to state any of the extelect9
cumstances. To show that he had not taken uP oc00()
frivolous grounds, he would read to the House a tsis V,
which he considered to be of some importance. In ajaisestort
he had paid to Mr. Elton in the Marrid e
had shown him this document, and ,j,",-thes
upon him as a gentleman to examine it and state wit' rot',
it was correct in every particular. Mr. Elton havingto
stated that it was so. Even after this, fearing tnats,eticeiot
have read it inattentively, he had in the Pr'
two other gentlemen, repeated his request, , 0.P.,
eOO
him again to read it deliberately, and inform 11'"is, 10'1,
or not, it was accurate in every particular. The 014,1dtW
which he mentioned was the use of the word " tisa',.'aorfrotr
(as we understood the Right Hon. Member) ougir's et'
to the phraseology of the Admiralty, to have beet-asossi
senger." On his asking him whether the statensen,..„(fies(i,
aggerated, his reply was—" Quite the contrary• reocets' st,
He did not mean to defend his conduct to Capt. Law'
it was not the fact that his conduct was unprovo'ese hebatft
by the Gallant Captain. The latter, he held, was, Rasrey',
correct in every particular. It stated, " that it arsroteil 11°i
extraordinary that, after having made an unres,! t Volt"
logy, he should be treated as he had been; t'sjrelster
been taken by the Hercules to Malta, where he co `d tie
fur five weeks confined in the cock pit, where_ bog (11,
was allowed to speak to him. He had been scut o"tay I;fif
Prometheus to Gibraltar"—on board which, he nti j'Oe
lowed to say in passing, that he had been treats the e sof
greatest courtesy by the Commander—" and fr°,Tsre sch See
metheus he was transferred to the Hastings, n",',; cir,s;
again put into close confinement in t"" sPe'isos;
where no person was allowed to speak tit'ioa
him except the servants who brought t tits at rti
that he was not allowed either wine or spirits, ba:vecl
of those restrictions were removed when he gurisstitiessllol
Helen's ; that be was then taken from the sfisioov.,pt,
brought from thence between two men, like a eit's'-eeth'o t!'it
in a second-class carriage to London, by the trssoti
Railway." It was harsh treatment towards a Phly re">o.l
position of a gentleman, and whose family were it bokYe stc
able, to be taken in this manner—the gaze of eve so "sS
lodged in the Marshalsea. That he considere joss "Sir'
s,...AEftletronh,iswahror,ivhale pinerEcenisg•
hard treatment to a person of 19 years of age, ti late illsatisfijs'
tot. c,l tr.
qt. ht
iar:tn ehei
sentenceso
fwpuo
hisnu would
punishment would r
toiwe do
Capt.ui belnd forgiven,eLifaewetr.en,
ceg,
ebhuentoisrl,:tnie.tert:t
he
,oe;11::(0:t
perceived by
htheewpaaspgerirs,e°o toss or,
the provocation which Mr. Elton had received
his conduct to Capt. Lawrence, and he contended Ise
not at the time amenable to martial law. e inuflol4)l
AnMintz/zit—He had no right then to b .11 unify
Mr. CURTEIS—Why was he allowed to bet; saY, joire
—( Hear, hear.) But the statement went on
was taut ;1/
Mr. Elton was walking on the quarter-deck, hed ft° er"
the Mate of the ship, when Captain Lawrence rus_sth Pssid
cabin and upbraided the Mate for daring to talk wand 0:41
who was disgraced, and who disgraced the sersic.e it:00 oolti'eo
to Mr. Elton, he said, ' How dare you sPet't upon,oo teJ
officers ; you are a disgrace to the service
°. aim, and
the unfortunate young man, being goaded t so" to
the appearance of unceasing persecution tosvards.t. Navitool
the impression that he was no longer is tu aftel,oso;
Captain Lawrence that he was a liar, but that tee
the u„
sent an apology." He (Mr. C.) differed fres': bat th
is'
Admiral, who stated the other evening that t° bat ti.'lo.
sent after Mi. Elton had been in the Marshalsea tie had.
w, s that it had been sent before. He thoughleeised_9o,
out a sufficient case to show that Mr. Elton hantiato 1,10`,10
provocation, and he believed if he had struck Car_or but to
he would have been amenable not to martial u;ss„tains::e,
civil law. He wished it to be understood tlitts,,kl'Js se
reuse had exerted himself to get Mr.
Gallant Ado'
was
ste correct,
anything the e trs'
remitted. He believed what the Galls ats'
to C3rSali
flioartel shtaeteddidthenotothweirsh ntioghtim'ap*
Williams except that he was the original caursesseid, 11`
affair, and, at all events had not treated 1%1 • "sneste ,i
yeller with the courtesy which he might havfreo':
the se,:oithiJ
believed that Mr. Elton deserved dismissal
at.._on4 p,_4{
but he did not think that he ought to receive to'hilin. Neap
ment, because a dinner was about to be given passions. jto
accuse Captain Lawrence of being
forgettingar
d
.h iEmlsteolnf,, when
ohfe
musoerde
tthhaenextpnisnacs. shi een.9s
cuse him. Neither had he any charge to bringw'al at
sltaitopf
Williams, and all he was anxious for
arties--(lsas.,
partial justice should be done so, an _ W 3, ress,s
He perceived that the Gallant Officer below tr ritundere;p
the. ta.n
that it wthOt
bring down upon him the force of
( Laughter.) He informed the Gallant (
intention to bring the subject forward,'a,msP'h
was a pity the subject should be again
to foliose. K 4,
lie thought it no undue course to pu in°. any O.'
did not `ll.
matter as he was doing, for he 'tole! ilhr,,eer°

=aa~ .
S,

4,474

h
a

t. • e
ar
.4
1, hi
°'4
64. w
sn.q 0 •
401 th ,
fJ

lt

.

= t}

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ki
,411',414
'44),

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kt

~6';°~

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rt,

entitled. Thl
Id officer mar
e country,
d after the

!ntrance of !II
was not I°
the coutte
fact relative

ientlenian
iv bes
evening,
ternent.

to : 120,6.0°1'
he p oTitteoo:
and Kdrualo

of
the nature
b
Is formerly

with the large

most deserrigr
)re, the brothe
reside abrescloi
xi a pensiosi

0/. be grLuted
ice for the rr