The Sun.
London, England, 1845-06-05 00:00:00

S ( N, LONDON, THURSDAY EVENING. JUNE 5, 1845.

niated, was the one which the inhabitants of Cornwall required.
No evidence on which they could depend had been adduced
to show that the unknown line advocated by Mr.
Thomas was practicable. No levels or sections had been
properly taken. Were the Committee satisfied, then, that suffi-
cient evidence had been adduced to prove that that line was a
better line than the one proposed? They had not had sufficient
evidence to show that that line could be properly constructed ; and
in his opinion it had been improperly intruded on the Com-
mittee. If they bad not the gradients complained of on the
proposed line, they would be compelled to tunnel to a great extent
and no line could be constructed on account of the expense; but in
a county like Cornwall—a county which undulated more than
many other counties—such gradients could not be avoided. Mr.
S'evenson's dictum with respect to the rate of speed
on the line was most - exaggerated. Somehow or other
engineers were actuated by a strong feeling of hostility towards
each other, and were apt to exaggerate when giving evidence
before Committees. Mr. Stevenso❑ was a most suspicious witness.
The Learned Counsel then referred to the report of the Board of
Trade to show that they had not been imposed upon, and had con.
sequently given a preference to the coast line ever the central one. The
Board of Trade considered that the central line was impracticable
on account of its expense, that the gradients and curves on the
coast line were not objectionable for an atmospheric line, and that
with ordinary locomotive power they would not be dangerous ;
that on public grounds they could not report in favour of the
central, but saw Ito reason why they should not report in favour
of the coast line and recommend it for the sanction of Parliament.
It was true in the sections one gradient had been put down as I in
60 whilst it should have been lin 40. Upon that solitary fac this
Learned Friend had grounded the assertion that the favourable re-
port of the Board of Trade had been obtained by misrepresentation.
The other deep gradient was at the Penryn station, and could not
be dangerous, as the carriages, as a matter of couse, did not run at
the top of their speed, but were almost stationary. The other
steep gradient was on the Bodmin branch, and the objection there-
fore could not apply to the main line. Then the Hamoaze would
be crossed on a plan which would be perfectly safe. No deception
could have been practised by either Mr. Brunel or Captain Moor-
s= as it was a special provision in the agreement, between
the Great Western and the other companies who had agreed to
take shares to the amount of 250,0001. in the Company, that the
estimates should be made with a view to atmospheric or locomo-
tive traction. The estimates too were not fallacies. He con-
cluded by contending that the promoters had proved their case ;
that taking into consideration that no landowner opposed it, with
the exception of Mr. Thomas, whose opposition arose from his
being interested in another line, he, submitted, therefore, that
they must report in favour of the preamble.

the town. He considered that the favourable gradients on the
Brayton and Goole line more than counterbalanced the shortness
of the distance by the other. Besides affording greater facilities
for the accommodation of traffic to the towns in the west, it was
also a less expensive line.

By the CHAlRMAN—Assuming the superiority of the gradients
on the Brayton and Goole line, and the shorter distance of three
miles by the Wakefield, Pontefract,. and Goole line, there would,
in his opinion, be very little difference in point of time in going
by either line from Goole to Bradford.

Ater the examination of Mr. Robert Stephenson, which con.
eluded the engineering evidence, and the estimates having been
handed ii,
Mr. KNOWLES proceeded to address the Committee on behalf of
the Brayton and Goole line, but he was interrupted by the an-
nouncement that the Speaker was at prayers, and the Committee
adjourned.

GROUP X.
LONDON AND YORK LINE.
(Continued from our Afternoon Edition of yesterday.)

The Committee then entered upon the engineering evidence;
but even in this, toe, there is a species of hiatus, inasmuch as the
opposing Counsel called for certain tabular statements, setting forth
the length, width, depth, and expense of certain cuttings, which
the witness, Mr. Cubitt, was unable to furnish until
yesterday. What remained then of that class of evidence was
proceeded with, and closed yesterday; then came on the testi-
mony of the valuators, and it is now proceeding; and when
that has closed then the competing Company's Coun-
sel resume their cross-examination on the traffic tables ;
and. if an idea of the length of that cross-examination may be
formed from the vastness of the rr.aterial that is to furnish it,
it is impossible to say to what period it may not be
' protracted; and when that has closed, then comes on the
speeches of Counsel in summing up the case they conceived
they have made out, to warrant the Committee in de-
claring that the preamble of their Bill has been proved; then,
after that comes the speech of the Counsel in laying before the
tribunal the merits of the case of a competing line; then follows
the evidence in support of that statement, the crass-examination
of the witnesses, the summing up, and the reply; and then the
same round of speeches, witnesses, cross. examinations,
and replies of the various other competing lines, the
claims for compensation arc. &c., and so it will go en, ad infinitum.
before the Committee can bring their minds to bear on the vast
mass of testimony they have heard, pour a contre, with a view of
declaring whether or not the preamble of the Bill for the
London and York scheme has been proved; and all this must be
gone through and disposed of before the Committee can take into
consideration any one of the other lines attached to Group X.
The first witness called to.day was
Mr. William Simpson, land-valuer. He was called to prove
the value Of the land on that portion of the line from
Bawtry to Doncaster, and Doncaster to Wakefield. The quantity
of land proposed to betaken in was 355 acres, and he had esti-
mated the value at 53,5551. 18s. Bd.
Mr. Paver valued the land between Doncaster and York. The
quantity of land to be taken up was 347 acres, and he had esti-
mated the value at 84,5311.
Mr. Keyworth handed in tables of the tolls received on the
Fordyke and Witham Navigations.
The Rev. Mr. Sibthorp was called to prove the advantages that
would result to both parties by the arrangements made between the
two Navigation Companies and the London and York Company.
At the close of the examination of the last witness, the cross-
examination of the goods' traffic witnesses was resumed, and occu-
pied the Committee to its rising. The object of it was to
show that the tables had not been- formed on correct data, and that
the assumed traffic between the places stated, such as Lincoln and
Boston, Sheffield and Hull, Gainsborough and Hull, &c., as exist-
ing at present, and which it was alleged would be transferred to the
London and Yorkshire, had been exaggerated.
At the conclusion of this witness's evidence, the Committee
adjourned at half-past five o'clock.

SUB—COMMITTEE ON STANDING ORDERS.
This Committee assembled at three o'clock. Present, Sir J. Y.
Buller, Mr. Aldam, Mr. Brotherton, and Mr. Broadley.
FORM AND NORTH MIDLAND RAILWAY,
GOOLE BRANCH.
(ADDITIONAL PROVISIONS.)
In this case the standing orders were declared to have been com-
plied with.

CAMBRIDGE AND BURY RAILWAY.
Standing orders complied with.
LIVERPOOL AND MANCHESTER RAIL-
WAY-THE NORTHERN AMALGAMATION.
In this case it was found that the notices in the Gazelle were de.
fective in one trivial point.—The Committee reported accordingly,

TUESDAY NIGHT'S GAZETTE.
DIVIDENDS.
At the Court of Bankruptcy, Basinghall-street.
L. J. Nicolay, draper, Woolwich, June 26, at eleven—J.
Wilson, boot-maker, Jermyn-street, Westminster, June 26,
at one—S. Hoadley, coach maker, New Bond-street, June 26,
at half-past twelve—J. Welch, licensed victualler, Holloway,
June 26, at eleven—B. Bright, licensed victualler, Wigmore-
street, June 26, at twelve—R. Barham, linen draper, Ems-
worth, Hampshire, June 26, at one—R. Tucker, farrier,
Dean-street, Westminster, June 26, at half-past one—W. H.
Williamson, tobacconist, Dowgate-hill, June 24, at half-past
twelve—G. Jackson, upholsterer, Hertford, June 24, at one.
In the Country.
_ _

P. Murray, travelling draper, Manchester, June 27, at
twelve, at the Manchester District Court—N. P. Wood,
banker, Manchester, June 27, at twelve, at the Manchester
District Court—J. Crump, miller, Stanway, Gloucestershire,
June 26, at eleven, at the Bristol District Court—W. Fergu-
son, draper, Liverpool, June 24, at twelve, at the Liverpool
District Court—G. Brocklehurst, H. Dircks, and J. B. Nel-
son, millwrights, Liverpool, June 25, at eleven, at the Liver-
pool District Court—T. B. Golborne and A. A. Dobbs, wine
merchants, Liverpool, June 25, at eleven, at the Liverpool
District Court—W. Oliver, printer, Darlington, June 26, at
twelve, at the Newcastle-upon-Tyne District Court—W.
Granger, pal)er manufacturer, Relly-mill, Durham, June 26,
at half-past twelve, at the Newcastle-upon-Tyne District
Court—J. Hall, cowkeeper, Wallsend, Northumberland, June
25, at half. past twelve, at the Newcastle-upon-Tyne District
Court—R. Currie, stationer, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, June 26,
at eleven, at the Newcastle-upon-Tyne District Court—C.
Murcott, coal dealer, Birmingham, June 24, at half-past
eleven. at the Birmingham District Court—J. Hayward,
miller, Milverton,Warwickshire, June 24, at half-past eleven,
at the Birmingham District Court—J. Clarke and G. Clarke,
carpet manufacturers, Market Harborough, June 24, at eleven,
at the Birmingham District Court.
CERTIFICATES to be granted, unless cause be shown to

the contrary, on day herein mentioned.
J. Myatt, victualler, Commercial-road, Pimlico, June
25—D. P. Rees, iron merchant, Crooked-chambers, King
William-street, City, June 25—C. M. Firth, lithographic
printer, St. Michael's •alley, Cornhill, June 25—T. Jop-
lin, linen draper, Sunderland, June 25—W. Granger, paper
manufacturer, Relly-mill, Durham, June 26—T. S. Stuart,
jun., drysalter, Liverpool, June 24—John Nield, Jas. Nield,
John Nield, jun., and J. Holt, cotton spinners, Dukinfield,
Cheshire, June 26—J. Nicholson, woollen draper, Blackburn,
June 25—J. S. Rowe, draper, Newcastle. under Lyne, June
25— NV. Ferguson, draper, Liverpool, June 24—G. C. Smith,
builder, Kensington-park, June 24.
PARTNERSHIPS DISSOLVED.
W. Smart and A. Tullet, stationers, Old Fish-street—R.
Beaumont and F. Kennedy, stockbrokers, Leeds—T. Wick-
ham and C. Brooks, town carmen, Swan-street, Newington
—H. Rawson and W. Field, manufacturers, Leicester—T.
Luscombe, W. Bryant, and E. James, coal merchants—B. B.
Powell and S. Bromfield, jun., rnaltsters, Tattenhall, Cheshire
—R. Beaumont, F. Kennedy, and G. Clark, stockbrokers,
Bradford—W. Ramer and J. Bleaklev, cotton spinners,
Bolton, Lancashire—J. Barrett and J. Myers, painters, Brad-
ford—J. Hamilton and J. Baines, ship brokers, Liverpool—
W. G. Watson, G. Tyrrel, and H. Cory, white lead manufac-
turers, Narrow-street, Limehouse—P. Webb and J. Irving,
starch manufacturers, Liverpool—T. Graham and W. Hay-
ward, chemical light manufacturers, Queen-street, Mile-end
New Town—H. Glynn, and R. P. Glynn, brokers, Liverpool
—E. Tassiker and J. Southworth, coal miners, Wigan—R.
Askew, T. Barlow, and S. Davenport, dyers, Manchester—
S. H. Gorringe and L. E. Blanc, milliners, Manchester—E.
Fielding and J. Craven, cotton manufacturers, Chorley, Lan-
cashire—J. Garland, C. Garland, and J. L. Garland, wine
merchants, Leadenhall-street—T. F. Triebner and W. F.
Conquest, Russia brokers, Old Broad-street, City—T. J.
Feldwick and G. Feldwick, boarding house keepers, Pancras-
lane, City—C. Raisbeck and J. Rutty, timber merchants, Hull
—J. Thompson and G. Ellerkanip, rock salt proprietors,
Northwich, Cheshire—G. Corry and E. Edge, cotton cloth
manufacturers, Preston—J. Stephenson, jun., and W. Hyde,
jun., ironmongers, Liverpool—C. J. Jordan and W. Dale,
general agents, ater-lane--J. Williamson and P. Harrison,
dyers, Pendleton, Lancashire—T. Heydon and C. Handley,
attorneys, Warwick—E. Patterson, S. Pascall, and A. G. E.
Field, haberdashers, Church-street, Hackney—J. B. F. W.
Heimann and J. G. W. Kuper, wire rope manufacturers,
St. George's-terrace, Camberwell.
SCOTCH SEQUESTRATION.
J. Burnside, bootmaker, Glasgow, June 10 and July 2, at
one, at the office of Mr. G. Kippen, Glasgow.

recollection of his wife being close to him when he was at the
foot of the steps leading on to the trap, and he thought she
had followed him up the steps. After placing his child
in safety, he returned to aid his wife, and then saw the body of a
female lying senseless in the gutter, on the roof of the house. The
smoke was rising in such dense volumes that he did not recognise
the features, and, supposing it to have been his wife, with the
assistance of Mr. Robinson, his partner, he conveyed her into the
attic of the adjoining premises, where he first discovered that
it was the servant, and not his wife, that he had rescued. Wit-
ness returned to the roof of his own house, and, as well as he was
able, called out to his wife, but received no reply, and was at
last driven by the flames to make his retreat. Mr. Satchell
added that under the trying circumstances in which they were
placed his wife had shown the greatest presence of mind,
and he was utterly unable to account for her having at last failed
to follow him up the ladder on to the roof of the house. The
room in which the body was found was witness's bed-room, leading
to the supposition that the unfortunate deceased had retraced her
steps after accompanying him to the ladder leading to the trap-
door. Witness had no idea how the fire occurred.
A long and desultory conversation ensued as to the means
adopted to obtain fire-ladders on the occasion, and as to the manner
in which the engines had been sent for. A close examination into
the circumstances satisfied the jury that, with regard to the latter,
everything that was necessary had been done, but as to the fire-
escapes or ladders, it was too painfully evident that no attempt had
been made to bring any one of them, calculated to be of service,
to the spot.

After some further evidence of no importance,
1 he jury, after a few moments' consideration, returned a verdict
of " Accidental Death" in both cases.

LITERATURE.
MACGREGOR'S COMMERCIAL STATIS-
TICS. 3 Vols.
THIRD NOTICE.
In his section upon " Belgium," our author de-
scribes the physical aspect and natural resources of
the country as being exceedingly varied and fertile ;
both Flanders and Antwerp are flat, with a soil
generally composed of sea-sand and alluvious, ex-
cept in the immediate frontier adjoining Brabant.
I'he coast is low, with ridges of downs, pastures, and
a highly cultivated country inland (yielding in per-
fection all the crops common in England and the
North of France) ;—intersected by the Scheldt and
various canals which traverse the provinces. The
district features of these may be thus described :
Brabant and Hainault, highly cultivated, ex-
hibiting corn-fields, fruit-trees, pastures, and woods.
Liege and Namur have the same aspect, but
more undulated; and near the Sambre, Meuse, and
the Prussian frontiers, hilly and somewhat moun-
tainous. For a small kingdom, Belgium possesses
abundant resources. In the forests, plenty of oak
and other ship timber ; below the soil, mines of iron,
seams of coal, rich ores of copper and lead, and great
store of alum, marble, limestone, potter's clay, &c.
The Meuse and the Scheldt, with their numerous
tributaries, improved and carefully connected by
canals, form an inland navigation of which the
branches extend to every corner of the kingdom.
Railroads, admirably constructed and extending from
Ostend to Liege, open a cheap and speedy inter-
course between Ostend, Bruges, Ghent, Antwerp,
Malines, Brussels, and numerous intermediate towns.
The cloth, cotton, linen, and hardware manufactures
of Belgium have very much extended themselves
since 1814. The several provinces of Belgium are
South Brabant, East and West Flanders, Hainault,
Antwerp, Namur, Liege, Limbourg, and Luxem-
bourg, covering an area of 12,797 square
miles, and peopled by 4,022,677 souls. The
chief towns are Brussels, Ghent, Bruges, Mons,
Antwerp, Namur, and Liege, with populations,
respectively, of 112,500, 95,000, 45,500, 20,500,
77,000, 21,000, and 65,300. Though Antwerp and
Ostend are, properly speaking, the only seaports of
Belgium, yet vessels of from 200 to 300 tons can
come by sea from Ostend to Bruges, and Nieuport
will admit small vessels which may communicate
with the interior by the canals. These, with the
rivers of Belgium, extend many of the advantages of
seaports to the inland towns, as Ghent, Bruges, Brus-
sels, Liege, and most of the towns and seats of in-
dustry in the kingdom. Vessels sail from Louvain,
which is in the very centre of Belgium, with their
cargoes direct for England. The port of Antwerp,
with its spacious dock,:basin, and quays, and its safe an-
chorage, is one of the best in Europe, but approached
from the sea by a tedious navigation. It has sufficient
depth for the largest vessels, and every convenience
for ship-building. In 1838, the total value of all
imports into Belgium was no less than
9,522,1001. sterling (738,052,659 f.) Of exportsfrom
Belgium, 7,743,1801. (or 193,579,520 francs). The
annual average navigation of Belgium for the eight
years, 1831 to 1838 inclusive, was as follows :
Sailed, Belgian vessels, 470; tonnage, 57,694. Fo•
reign vessels, 1,411 ; tonnage, 173,057. Total, 1,881
vessels, of total tonnage, 230,752. The annuli ave-
rage arrivals in same year were, Belgian vessels, 475 ;
tonnage, 59,207. Foreign, 1,339 ; tonnage, 172,707.
Total, 1,874 vessels; of total tonnage, 231,914.
The chief articles of import were—coffee, grain, and
seeds, sugar (raw), woven goods, cotton, metals, lea-
ther, wool, tobacco, lead, rice, potass, dye stuffs, wines
and spirits, fruits, drugs, oil, spices, salt, and tea. The
chief exports, flax, woven goods, namely, cotton, dyed
and plain ; linens, table and other kinds; woollen cloths,
refined sugar; metals (nails, zinc, and other kinds) ;
glass (window and glass wares) ; bark for tanners'
use; arms; green and seed tobacco ; dye stuffs ;
wool ; leather, and seed oil. Out of the annual num-
ber of 45 vessels which sailed from Louvain for all
parts, 18 measuring 1,526 tons departed for England.
The value of those exports amounted to 226,500
francs. Total amount to all other parts only 11,700
francs. The French flag does not appear to have
been at all engaged in this (Louvain) branch of the
Belgian trede. Ile total estimated income of Bel-
gium for 1841 was 3,381,0001. sterling.

POST-OFFICE ESPIONAGE.
PROTESTS.

The following protests have been entered on the journals
of the House of Lords by Lords Clanricarde and Radnor,
after the vote of Friday night on the Post-office Amend-
ment Bill :

"1. Because we think that the law, which in a matter
directly affecting the rights, interests, and comfort of every class
of the community, ought to be perfectly clear and distinct, is in the
matter to which this Bill applies obscure and doubtful, affording
neither a guarantee to the subject against inquisitorial tyranny and
the arbitrary caprice of a Minister, or certain protection to a ser-
vant of the Crown who may be led by unsound precedents to ex.
ceed his lawful authority.

" 2. Because it does not appear from either of the reports of the
Secret Committees of this and the other House of Parliament, or
from any other authentic source of information, neither has it been
alleged in debate, that any danger to the State from foreign foes or
from domestic treason has ever been averted or discovered by the
stoppage or opening of letters in the Post-office; and we therefore
gather from the experience of nearly two centuries, that no benefit
arises from a practice which is so unconstitutional, odious, and de-
moralising, that nothing but the highest interests of the State, in-
volving the peace of the country or the security of the Sovereign,
could justify or palliate its continuance without some such limit
and restraint as this Bill is calculated to impose.

" 3. Because even if we could believe that the opening of letters
in the Post.office may have been at any past time useful to the
Government and beneficial to the community at large, we should
nevertheless be convinced that it cannot in future be attended by
advantages at all eommensurate with the evil of maintaining a sys-
tem disgraceful to our Government, repugnant to the feelings of
the British people, and contrary to every principle of popular or
individual liberty. " SOMERHILL."

Protest against the negativing the second reading of the
Post-office Bill on Friday last :

" 1. Because it is doubtful whether by law any power exists of
detaining and opening letters passing through the Post-office.
" 2. Because this power, as now exercised by the Secretary of
State in England, and in Ireland by the Lord-Lieutenant, is ab •
horrent from the feelings of the people, and is immoral in itself,
being in violation of confidence, and requiring for its useful
exercise secresy, which in practice has been obtained by the
forging of seals and the falsification of stamps.
" 3. Because being exercised secretly, it cannot be questioned,
and the person who exercises it, not being known, cannot be pro.
ceeded against or made responsible.

"4. Because, if necessary, as is alleged, for the safety of the
realm, or for the purposes of police, .it ought to be clearly re-
cognised by law, regulated, and well-defined ; and the provisions
of this Bill were intended for that purpose.
"5. Because the clauses and provisions against which in the
debate strong objections were urged, might have been altered in
the Committee if the Bill had been allowed to proceed, and were
not legitimate grounds for objecting to the principle or refusing the
second reading.

44 RADNOR.
" DENMAN."

The following protest has also been made against the
negativing the second reading of the Post-office Amendment
Act on Friday last :
"1. Because I think the law with respect to the detaining and
opening letters at the Post-office extremely doubtful ; and that in a
matter of so much delicacy and importance, it ought to be pecu-
liarly clear and well-defined ; and because if the law really is what
it was contended in the debate to be, I think it ought to undergo
immediate amendment.

"2. Because, despairing at present of the entire abolition of the
practice, I highly approve of the principle of the Bill which was
meant to restrain it to cases in which it might possibly do some
good, and to limit its operation within reasonable bounds.
"3. Because, if the clauses of the Bill were liable to the objec-
tions urged in the debate, these clauses might have been corrected,
and the objections obviated in the Committee.

"4. Because two most desirable objects would have been obtained
by this Bill—

" Ist—The suppression of the immoral and fraudulent practices
naturally arising out of the power itself; and
" 2dly—The limiting the exercise of the power claimed to mat-
ters of internal government, and the preventing of that inter-
ference with the concerns of foreigners, relying on English hospi.
tality, which I deem derogatory to the character of the country,
and which, as late events have proved, is likely to be prompted by
false information, and may, I apprehend, endanger the general
peace.

"DENMAN.
"RADNOR.
" CAMPBELL
"KINNAIRD and ROSSIE."

RAILWAY GAMBLING.—The Committee on the
London, Chatham, and North Kent Railway having stopped Mr.
Sergeant Wrangham in his reply on behalf of the Company, by
saying that "there appeared to the Committee to be no objection
to the line," a gentleman, who had been for some days
observed as an eager member of the antagonist group,
said hastily to a friend, "We lose 100,0001. by that,"
The announcement of the chairman was followed by rather in-
temperate manifestations of triumph on the part of the supporters
of the Bill; and in the hearing of our reporter, it was stated with
great exultation that the shares of the North Kent would rise to
three per cent. by morning.
MORTALITY IN THE METROPOLIS.—There has
been a considerable increase in the deaths during the last
week, the total number being 905, exceeding that of the pre-
ceding week by 95. The increase is chiefly from diseases of the
lungs and other organs of respiration. The number of violent
deaths was 29, of which 7 were suicides, and 4 from burns
and scalds. Sixteen died of small-pox, at the following
ages :—Four under 1 year ; 'seven 1--3 ; lime 3-5; one 5;
and one 17 years.

IMPERIAL PA RLIAM EN T.
HOUSE OF LORDS, June 4.
Their Lordships met at Five o'clock.
Petitions were presented against the grant to May nooth by
the Marquis of Downshire, Lord II itherton, Lord Clancarty,
the Bishop of St. David's, Lord Hill, Lord Kenyon, and the
Bishop of Gloucester.
The Earl of Fl'l Z WILLI A M presented a petition from
L• rd Harborough complaining of acme of the clauses of the
Syston and Peterborough Railway, which provided that the
railway should pass through his park.
Lard BROUGHAM agreed that the hardship upon the
Noble Earl who complained amounted almost to a fraud.
After an observation from a Noble Lord,
Lord BROUGHAM said, that as a general rule that was all
very well, but there might be particular cases of outrage on
private property which might merit particular notice.
MAYNOOTH.
The Bishop of NORWICH presented several petitions from
congregations of Dissenters in his diocese in favor of the grant.
THE BISHOP OF CASHEL'S CHARGE.
The Bishop of CASH EL wished to say a few words
respecting the observations made last night in their Lordships'
House by a Noble Marquis (the Marquis of Normanby) upon
a charge which he had delivered at Lismore. He had thought
at the time that what he was represented to have said
could form no part of his charge, and LOW he was able to
give it a most positive contradietioa. He had succeeded in
getting two copies of that charge in London instead of, as he
feared, being obliged to send to Ireland for them. One he
had placed in the hands of the Noble Duke behind him and the
other he begged to lay on the table of the House. He could
say that the passage which had been read was rot only not a
perversion of his charge, hut that it was a complete and entire
fabrication. As he intended to re-publish that charge, he
should wish to have a copy of what was said to be his charge,
in order to give it with the charge itself, and his own defence.
He hoped the Noble Marquis would have no objection to
state on what authority he had made the accusati ; for in
these stormy times, when no man's character was safe, it was
some protection to know from what quarter he was assailed.
The Marquis of NORMANBY regretted that he had not
received, according to the Right Reverend Prelate's pro-
mise, an authenticated copy of the charge. But he had
no objection to state that the report, from which he last
night read an extract, was furnished to him by Dr. Fogarty,
the vicar-general and parish priest of Lismore—a man
of the highest character in the Roman Catholic priesthood.
He believed there was no person who knew Dr. Fogarty but
would speak in the highest terms of his moral character. He
thought that it was due to the Right Reverend Prelate
to give him the earliest opportunity of contradicting that
letter, and when he perused it he would see that Dr.
Fogarty had endeavoured to procure a copy of the charge
but was unable to do so. It had been generally reported that
the Right Reverend Prelate had given utterance to such
pernicious doctrines as exclusive intercourse, and he
considered it much to be regretted, and was a great
loss that the Right Reverend Prelate had not given
an extensive circulation to the charge which he had 'really de-
livered, and which he now laid on the table of the House. He
felt it unnecessary to say more. He was sure their Lordships
would acquit him of any intention to affix any unjust stigma
upon the character of the Right Rev. Prelate. He would ask
him, however, was the charge which he delivered an extem-
pore charge?
The Bishop of CASHEL—It was not an extempore charge;
it was a written charge, and the copy on their Lordships' table
was printed from that written charge.
The Marquis of NORMANBY—The reason why he asked
the question was, that he might set the matter for ever at rest.
When he had asked the Right Rev. Prelste last evening whe-
ther the charge he delivered was the same as the printed one
published afterwards, he had said that it was so as nearly as
possible.
The Duke of WELLINGTON •bserved that the Right
Rev. Prelate having done him the honour of putting the charge
into his hands a few hours ago, he considered it his duty to
affirm that it did not contain one word on the point al-
luded to by the Noble Marquis opposite. It was a regular
ecclesiastical charge, such as a person in the situation of the Right
Reverend Prelate ought to have delivered. There was not one
word of unkindness, nor one word calculated to wound the
feelings of any man, of any belief whatever. No one could
read it without satisfaction, nor without entertaining respect
for the person who composed it. For himself, he could only say
that he had derived great and sincere pleasure from its perusal.
Lord CAMPBELL, notwithstanding the denial of the Rev.
Prelate, the qualification of the Noble Marquis, and the testi-
mony of the Noble Duke, must say, that on casting his eye over
the document in dispute, he could not wonder at the mistake.
The Right Rev. Prelate had adopted the language of another
eminent divine, who had styled Popery as the master-piece
of Satan. With such a strong and unequivocal expression he did
not wonder that the charge had met with the interpretation
so naturally put upon it, yet so loudly complained of.
The Bishop of CASHEL—I said that some one had so said.
—( Hear, hear.) Whatever I said was against Tractarianism
of the present day.

religion that the Sovereign of the State was bound to protec
and support, and, further, the prerogative of royzlty would be
annulled by the superintendence and control, whis..h of right
belonged to it, being surrendered into the hands of Catholic
priests, and finally to a foreign power. He did not believe that
the present Bill would establish or promote any improvemeo
in the social condition of the country for which it was intended,
and the policy that instigated such a measure was, in his opi-
nion, indefensible and ineffably bad. He would not enter into
! any discussion on the heavy charges that had been brought
against the College of Maynooth. Several Noble Lords, during
last night's debate, had borne testimony to the erroneous nature
of the doctrines dissemina'ed there. and the Noble and Learned
Lord who had concluded the debate had confirmed the whole
case by his lucid and incontrovertible arguments. During a
long series of years no effort had been made. to obtain an in-
creased support. for the institution at Maynotath. Nothing
had been said during that interval, and the inference to be
drawn from the silence would be that it was not necessary to
squander so large a sum of the public money in propagating
Catholicism, as was contemplated by the present propeeed
measure. Commissioners had been appointed to investigate
generally into the condition of education in Ireland, and they
had reported very voluminously as to the present state of the
educational regimen at Maynooth. Evidence had been brought
before the House, but it would consume a vast deal of time to
consider singly the papers in which that evidence was con-
taioed. It might, perhaps, be an interesting inquiry to make,
but in the absence of that evidence he would briefly refer to the
statements of a late celebrated Lord Chancellor, who, in his
official capacity as one of the visitors of Maynooth, had said
that the young men there were brought up in a condition more
servile and more degrading than at any college of the Jesuits ,•
and that it was impossible not to notice the countenances of
these young men, whose eyes were continually cast down to the
ground, and whose whole demeanor showed they were discip-
lined to submit to the power of despots. Such was the testimony
of a most respectable witness as to the condition of dings at May-
nooth, hut perhaps the principal question to be consiJered was,
whether the proposed measure would be generally beneZcial to
the interests of Ireland. All that had been heard and pub-
lished of the conspiracies, murders, and outrages of every de-
scription in Ireland had been the result of misgoVernment.
The true character of the Irish people was excellent. There
were none who were naturally more attached to the sovereign
authority or more grateful for benefits received. And, on the
contrary, there were no people who possessed so keen a sense of
injustice and oppression, and, above all, there existed no people
who had a more profound contempt for inconsistency, whether
it was of a political tendency or of a religious nature. Ireland
had been for too long a period subjected to be governed by the
miserable resort of expediency—( Hear, hear)—and a wretched
expedient was now contemplated in the proposed endowment, by
making a weak concession to the priests, in order to gain their
support in conciliating Ireland. The only true system, which
was the Scriptural education scheme, had been thrown aside
as ineffectual and was lost, and the domination of the priests,
which had been tacitly allowed by the late Government, was
openly encouraged by the present Administration.—( Hear.)
The Bequest; Bill had not produced a contrary spirit in the
country. They were still true to their Spiritual Lord, the
Pope, to whom they had sworn to be faithful ; and nothing
would induce them to sell their support of that principle on
behalf of any other authority. This feeling was borne out by
the whole history of Ireland, and it was afeeling which the
Government could not but respect. No doubt there was a
great difference in the state of Ireland now, compared with
what it was before Sir Robert Peel took office, and for what
he had done he considered him entitled to the confidence of
the country. If, however, he forced the establishment of this
institution of Maynooth on the country, it could scatter that
confidence to the winds. Before that Right Hon. Baronet
took office, Ireland was agitated in a serious manner, but on
his accession to office, a state of comparative tranquillity was
induced, arising, for the time, from the high constitutional feel-
ings which were aroused in the country by that event. Bat
that state of tranquillity did not last long. Under the guidance
of the able repeal agitator of that country, the people were
brought into a state of unexampled excitement for the repeal
of the union. While this was going forward, the Government
was looking on with mute astonishment, witnessing the whole
population of Ireland brought together to monster meetings, in
tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands. The excitement
showed the people of that country ready to follow one man
wherever he chose to lead them, and then only restrained
from acts of bloodshed, and actual rebellion, by that
man, who exercised over them such unbounded control.

At length the country was filled with troops, and the meeting
at Clontarf was put down; then it was to be said to the repeal
leaders was due the credit that no collision between the sol-
diers and the people did take place. In his (Lord Clancarty's)
opinion if at first a vigorous effort had been made by the Go-
vernment to put down these proceedings it would have been
successful, but ithe attempt was made too late. The people
had become organised, they had learned to despise the Govern-
ment, and had active and intelligent leaders to guide them.
Then followed the prosecution of the leaders, and that course
was a failure—it did not serve the purpose of a vindication of
the law of England.—(Hear.) Instead of this,- it weakened
respect for the law, and caused the people of that country to
lose all respect for the judges of Ireland,
The Duke of WELLINGTON—My Lords, in debating this
subject, I beg leave to submit that the question is a Bill for the
establishment of a college at Maynooth. I do not know that
the monster meetings, or the conduct of the Government in re-
gard to those meetings, bears any relation to the question.
submit that the Noble Lord should attend to the question, and
not refer to the Government respecting that which might be a
proper subject of discussion at another time ; but is not at pre-
sent. The subject now is Mavnooth.—( Hear.)
Lord CLANCARTY said lie did notconsider he was leaving
the question by referring to the monster meetings, and could
not bow to the opinion of the Noble Duke. He referred to
the monster meetings, to show that if no respect had been
shown to the law f England, great submission at least
had been shown to another authority—that that
deference which was not tendered to the Crown, was
not withheld from the leaders of the Roman Catholic popula-
tion. Though the authority of the Government was so weak
in Ireland, the power of the Pope was well known. Their
Lordships would recollect that what he referred to was the
submission of the people of Ireland to the Pope's rescript, at a
time when the law failed to work out a similar submission.
After the receipt of that document, a consultation of the
bishops of Ireland was held in Dublin, and the result was an
agreement to the principle of this endowment to Alaynooth. A
strong feeling had been expressed by the Protestants of Ire-
land that the present Government was unable to govern that
country, and he had stated these matters in order that their
Lordships roight understand the true bearings of the question.
Two years ago, when a measure was proposed to educate the
poor factory children in the principles of the Church
of England, a feeling was raised against it, and it was aban-
doned ; but now, while the voice of Protestant England and
Protestant Scotland was unanimously raised against this en-
dowment, it was altogether disregarded.—( Hear, hear.) He
admitted that healing measures—measures of improvement—
were necessary for Ireland, but they should be such as, would
tend to social improvement. But of all the measures origi-
nated within the walls of the English Parliament, that now
before their Lordships to endow the College of Maynooth, and
to recognise the Papal authority, was the last that should have
been expected from an English Parliament, a Protestant Go-
vernment, and a British Sovereign.—( Hear, hear.)
The Duke of CLEVELAND said ho was anxious to occupy
a short time in the discussion, not so much to occupy their
time in the consideration of the measure before them, as to
vindicate his own consistency, inasmuch as he differed on this
question with many of those with whom he usually acted. In
supporting this Bill, which he conceived it was his duty to do,
he was only pursuing that policy he had taken as his guide
ever since his entrance into public life. The debate had
hitherto been taken on religious grounds. Now he under-
stood from the Noble Duke who introduced the measure, that
it was more of a political than a religious subject. In that
view he (the Duke of Cleveland) wished to consider it. He
supported the measure for the relief of the Roman Catholics in
181.5, when it was introduced, and supported it up to its
being finally carried in 18A. He had been a regular sup-
porter of that principle from the time he entered the House of
Commons in 1812, until it was brought to a happy termination
under the auspices of the Noble Duke (the Duke of Welling-
ton) and Mr. Secretary Peel. For 17 years he acted with
the Whig party, and supported every measure brought forward
by them, with the exception of that of Parliamentary Reform,
which he had always opposed. Since then, he
had supported the Conservative party. His motto was
now, as it had always been, " measures not men. "
He could not see that any new principle was involved in this
additional grant. It was true that the arguments which bad
been adduced laid great stress on this being an annual grant.
But if they were to take the circumstances under which the grant
was made, the number of years which it had been allowed, he
would ask them whether they could suppose that it was ever
likely to be withdrawn ? Could they suppose that they could
ever retrace their steps? Whatever might be the case, they
might advance, but they could neverretrograde; to retrograde
now was an utter impossibility. He did not think, therefore,
that there was anything wrong in giving his consent to this
grant, or any real distinction between a grant which was sure
to be made annually and one which rendered that grant perma-
nent. With respect to ulterior measures he would not look at
them at the present moment. There were persons who took
a much more comprehensive view of the question than he did,
and who conceived that this was only a prelude to other mea-
sures. He knew not that such would be the case, but he felt
that he could only look at the measure before their Lordships
as a measure isolated—as one without any consequence. It
was in that way that he must consider it. He could not take
it in connexion with any measure in the back ground. If it
were so connected, and if were so put forward as a feeler to ascer-
tain the state of public opinion, and with a view to introduce
measures of an ulterior consequence, though of a similar kind,
it was a most complete failure. if they at all doubted that,
let them look to the petitions which daily crowded their table.
Those petitions were countless, and emanated not from any dis-
taut or obscure corner of the country, but they had poured in by
thousands from every district, and from every town, from Beachy
Head to John o' Groats. They might disregard public opinion
now, as in some instances it had been disregarded, but they
might carry the principle too far, they might push it to an
extent which was not quite safe, and, in this instance, it bad
been expressed with too much loudness and fervour not to be
heard. In the advocacy of this measure, however, he had
heard some sentiments expressed which be knew not how to
comprehend. When he first heard those opinions stated he
knew not rightly how to believe his senses. They had been
expressed by a Noble Lord a member of the Government, and
who held a position in her Majesty's household. He knew
not whether that Noble Lord (the Karl of Hardwicke) bad held
any conference with the chief officers of the Government, but
it did seem strange that that Noble Lord had stated that
if the Roman Catholic Church was to be endowed the
endowment should not come from the consolidated fund,
but from the resources of the Protestant Church in
Ireland. Ile (the Duke of Cleveland) knew not that
such a project was in contemplation, but if it were so be
trusted he should never live to see it. It was not for him to
solve the difficulty, but it did seem extraordinary that one
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were, should have held such opinions. There might have
a change in the views of the Cabinet, and of thepol. y which
they intended to pursue, but when he recollected the speeches
of the Noble Lord, formerly the Secretary for Ireland,
and who
was now Secretary for the Colonies (Lord Stanley), as
well as those of Sir Robert Peel and others, to which hehad
listened with so much delight in the House of Commons, he
was led to believe that they would speak in the same way in
which they intended to vote. Had the Noble Lord forgotten
that it was for this very reason that Sir Robert Peel had re-
signed in 1835, and that for a similar reason Lord Stanley had
left Lord Grey's Government? He had thought it his duty
thus to express his sentiments, and he had done so with con-
siderable anxiety, and repeated he saw nothing in this Bill to
which he could not completely assent. He should therefore vote
for it, though he was aware that in so doing he should
be opposing the opinions of a great portion of the
people of this country. Another course remained for him.
He need not vote at all, but tbat was a course which he had
never pursued in any debate, and it was one of the shabbiest
expedients that could possibly be adopted. It was nothing
else than publishing to the world that a man was not compe-
tent to form an opinion at all upon the subject. This was a
measure which in some degree intimated the policy which they
intended to pursue towards Ireland. They had many
grievances to be remedied, and these remedies could only be ob-
tained through the means of conciliation or by the power of
the sword. Whatever might be attempted, the sword of the
State must ultimately prevail in any contest which might arise,
however dreadful that contest might be. He was, therefore,
glad that a policy of conciliation was affected towards Ireland ;

SMALL DEBTS' BILL.
The Earl of HARDWICKE presented a petition in favour
of the Bill for the better security of small debts.
MAYNOOTH.
Earl RODEN presented petitions from various parts of Wales
against the grant to Maynooth.
Lord CHARLEVILLE presented petitions from Helstone,
in Cornwall, against the grant.
Lord DENMAN presented a petition to the same effect.
Lord BROUGHAM presented a similar petition.
ADJOURNED DEBATE.
The Earl of CLANCARTY, in resuming the adjourned
debate, said he thought it was a sufficient apology for his hav-
ing moved the adjournment, that only two in-
dividuals were suffered on the preceding evening to
address the House in support of the amendment
moved by his Noble Friend • but, independently of this fact, not
one single Irish Member had yet had an opportunity of ad-
dressing their Lordships. He thought the admissions
made by the Noble Lord who closed the debate last
night, on the subject of the Roman Catholic Church,
were strictly in favour of the amendment, and the
Noble Lord was acting rather inconsistently in opposing it.
It would be a consideration for her Majesty's Ministers how far
they intended to carry out the principle of the proposed
Bill.—( Hear.) The Noble Earl had asked if there were
151 benefices without a single Protestant in them. It appeared
there were 10 with no Protestants in them, and 42 with 10 or
less. In 24 there was no provision for them at all. He spoke
of the saving truths of the Roman Catholic Church, and he
spoke of its approximation to the Presbyterian Church.
He (Lord Clancarty) could not agree with the Noble Earl in
the explanation he had given of the proposed Bill. He thought
the Scottish Church was a pure church, and were he in Scot
land, he would willinglingly go and worship with the pro-
fessors of the Presbyterian faith ; but if, on the contrary,
he were in a Roman Catholic country, he should feel that he
could not conscientiously bow the knee before an image,
or address himself in prayer to the Virgin.—(Hear. )
With the Noble Earl who followed him on yesterday's debate,
he would most cordially agree with his sound and Protestant
feeling. In every sentiment :that had fallen from him, with
the exception of his observations on the Act of 1829, he
would cheerfully coincide. He saw nothing in the emancipa-
tiors of the Roman Catholics that could argue danger to the
Protestant Church.' It had not been argued that the Roman
Catholics in Parliament supported any measure in opposition to
the interest of the Established Church. They took oaths to
bind them in respect to the interest of the Church, and they
observed them with the strictest regard. He could say that
many of his tried and most consistent friends in Ireland were
Roman Catholics, and he always found them most desirous of
acting for the general good of the country. He mixed with
them at meetings of the boards of guardians and elsewhere, and
he invariably found them anxious to do everything in their
power to forward the interests of Ireland. He would say a
few words in reference to what fell from the Noble Marquis on
the other side of the House, who spoke last night. That
Noble Marquis had brought a charge against a Right Hou.
Prelate; but it was a great relief to him (Lord Clancarty) that
the reply of that Right Rev. Prelate had been most satisfac-
tory. The Noble Marquis had withdrawn his charge, but he
(Lord Clancarty) would have been better satisfied if he
had done it in a more unreserved manner, and if he had given
the Right Rev. Prelate notice of the charge he intended to
bring forward. There was a great distinction to be drawn be•
tween the course which the Noble Duke had adopted towards
the Right Rev. Prelate, and the course taken by the Noble
and Learned Lord opposite, in reading the garbled extracts
which he had done. Though he could not look upon the Go-
vernment of the Noble Marquis with so much respect as he de-
sired to show, yet he felt deeply obliged to him for his admi-
rable Church appointments, as was evident in the appointment
of Dr. Ponsonby. He would now allude to what had
fallen from the Most Rev. Prelate the Archbishop of
Dublin. He said that there appeared to be no distinction
between favour and endowment, and persecution and intole-
rance. By the solemn promise which he had given he had
engaged to drive away all error, and sooner than break his
faith with this promise, he would resign his sacred profession
and retire to a humble sphere. The real question was, whe-
ther the Roman Catholic was to be encouraged and made a
friend of, or whether he was to be regarded as an enemy ?
There could be no denial of the claims of the Roman Catholic
people of Ireland to the consideration of her Majesty's Go-
vernment. But he did not think that the Government was
under any obligation to uphold what the Noble Lord opposite
( Lord Beaumont) called the" immutability" of Roman Catholic
doctrine. His Noble Friend, he thought, had made a sufficient
case to justify an inquiry or examination into the tenets taught at
Maynooth, and what bad fallen from a Noble Earl (Lord
Hard wicke) with reference to Dr. Eaton onlyshowed the necessity
for the amendment of his Noble Friend receiving the utmost
consideration of the House. He certainly could not possibly
agree to this measure, because it was in direct opposition to the
oath he had made on first taking his seat amongst their Lord-
ships. He had sworn to sanction no measure which should
give power to any foreign Prince, and vet he was now called
upon to sanction an institution under the authority of the head
of the Roman Catholic Church. There was a very strong
feeling abroad on this question, for it was supposed out of doors
that the Members of that House were bound by something
more than their oaths. He, for one, would say he always held
that the Members of the Legislature were bound by ser-
tain principles of legislation by which they were bound
not to recognise the papal authority in any way in this realm.
He had no doubt that their Lordships attached paramount im-
portance to their oath of allegiance, and it was because he
knew that fact he had deemed it his duty to call their attention
to this particular point. He would not trespass much further
on their Lordships' attention, but he did hope that before their
Lordships should make any hasty legislation on this important
subject, they would consider well the points to which he had
called the attention of their Lordships. He would never con-
sent to establish such a college for the education of Roman
Catholics, as it would be interfering with her Majesty's right
of supremacy over the ecclesiastical seminaries within the
kingdom, and, in that respect, would be highly unconstitutional.
Great stress had been laid on the fact that the religion of
Maynooth had received the sanction and support of successive
Governments. It was said that Mr. Pitt had founded May-
nooth, and that Mr. Percival had subsequently supported it.
For his own part he could not justify an act that
Tfiase di in
oittrelrfwu'ne-
justifiable, and in his opinion no act could be just _ otherwise
than on its own intrinsic merits. It was an Act for the endow-
ment of a college for the education of Roman Catholics, and
at the time it was considered objectionable that Roman Ca-
tholics should be obliged to resort to the Continent for their
education, when they might, by an Act of Parliament, obtain
that advantage nearer home, and in that respect it was con-
sidered a fair enactment ; and in 1795, and the three follow-
ing years, money was awarded for the purpose of establishing
acollege, but it was kept under the power and control of
the State. The Noble Earl had referred to the Charitable
Bequest Act of last session, and he had some foundation for
his objections, for it conferred upon Maynooth a corporate
character for enjoying the endowments bestowed upon it, and
on that principle was recognised the Roman Catholic church
in Ireland, as subject only to the Pope's domination and con-
trol ; but that Act did not so positively acknowledge the Ro-
man Catholic church as the present proposed Act did. He
would put it to the Noble Lord whether the present measure
was not calculated to encourage the Roman Catholic religion?
He would contend that no expediency could justify this mea-
sure for religious education in Ireland. If it was intended
that such an Act should pass, let the oath of supremacy be at
once abolished, and then might the policy now proposed by her
Majesty's Ministers be proceeded with. He felt it his duty to
give his support to the motion of the Noble Earl in the inquiries
he had suggested should be made, and it would become Noble
Lords to consider well before they gave their assent to the
Bill before them. The principles of the Bill were to teach
doctrines that were damnable to their recipients, and highly
objectionable to the country, and which were opposed to the