The Sun.
London, England, 1845-05-20 00:00:00

NOTICES OF MOTION.

Mr. COLQUHOUN gave notice that he would to-
morrow present a petition from the London Conference
against the grant to Maynooth.
Mr. FERRAND gave notice that, on the third read-
ing of the Maynooth Endowment Bill, he would with-
draw the amendment of which he had given notice, as
he had been requested by several of his friends to do so,
in order that the division should be taken on the motion
of the Hon. Member for Gloucestershire.

On the motion of Colonel PAGET, leave of absence
was granted to Mr. W. Stanley for three weeks, on the
ground of ill-health.
On the motion of Colonel T. WOOD, leave of absence
was granted to Mr. Forster for a fortnight, on urgent
business.

BREACH OF PRIVILEGE.

The SOLICITOR-GENERAL begged leave to call
the attention of the House to a matter of importance
affecting the privileges of the House. The House would
of course understand that he alluded to the recent
eecision in the Court of Queen's Bench in the
action of Howard against Gossett—Howard having
been taken into custody on the warrant of the Speaker,
issued by order of the House. It would be in the recol-
lection of the House, that in the year 1840, in conse-
quence of proceedings instituted by a person Lamed
Stockdale against the Messrs. Hansard, the printers
to the House, it was considered necessary that
Howard, who conducted those proceedings as the
attorney of Stockdale, should attend at the bar to., be}
examined. Howard =had notice to that effect, but the
did not attend or pay any respect to the notice. In
consequence of that contempt an order was made by
the Hons.!: that he should be brought up in custody of
the Sergeant-at-Arms, and the Speaker's warrant was
issued accordingly. He was taken into custody upon
that warrant, and subsequently he brought an action
against the Assistant-Sergeant and others of the
officers for excess in the execution of the warrant.
The sole complaint against the officers was, that they
had been guilty of excess ; and upon that complaint the
House came to the decision that the officers be per-
mitted to appear and plead to the action. They pleaded
accordingly ; the case came on for trial in the Court of
Queen's Bench, merely on the general issue of the de-
nial of the fact. The jury were of opinion that the
officers had been guilty of excess, and found a verdict
against them for 100/ That the 100/ and the costs were.
paid by the House. In the year 1843, Mr. Howard com-
menced the action in question against the sergeant, and
communication of the feet was made by the Sergeant-at-
Arms to the House. His (the Solicitor-General)
Honourable and Learned Friend the Attorney-General
moved that the notice which had been given should be
printed, and on the following day he proposed to the
House that the Sergeant-at-Arms should be at liberty
to plead to the action. That proposal gave rise to a con-
siderable debate. That debate was adjourned, and ulti-
mately the House came to the resolution that Sir W. Gos-
sett have leave to appear and defend the action brought
against him by Mr. T. B. Howard for trespass. After
that, the House agreed to another resolution, that Wil-
liam Bellamy have leave to defend the action brought
against him, and that the Attorney-General be directed
to defend Sir William :Gossett and William Bellamy.
Upon that authority several pleas were put on the
record in the action of Howard against Gossett; and,
stripping those pleas of their technicalities, the effect
was, that the imprisonment which had been com-
plained of was to be justified by the authority of the
Speaker's warrant. In those pleas there was a demurrer,
and on that demurrer an argument took place in the
Court of Queen's Bench, in the month of November
last. The Judges appeared to have entertained
vary considerable doubt on the subject, for they took
time to consider their opinion, and did not deliver their
judgment until Thursday last. When they pronounced
judgment, the majority of the Judges were of opinion
that the pleas constituted no sufficient justification
of the complaint contained in the plaintiff's declaration.
In that judgment, however, Mr. Justice Williams dif-
fered from the majority of the Judges. But:of course it
would be premature to discuss that part of the subject
further until the whole of the proceedings were before
the House. However, it would be right of him to say
that the Judges, one and all, had stated that their
decision did not in any way refer to any of the
privileges of this House, but to the fact of the
Sergeant-at-Arms having exceeded the authority vested
in him by the [louse.—(Hear, hear.) Now he would
suggest that bt>fore the House took any proceedings in
reference to this subject, they should have before
them all the proceedings in reference to the trial,
and therefore he would move that copies of
the record and of the short-hand writers' notes
should be laid before it. It would be necessary that the
House should proceed upon the matter as speedily as
possible, in order to come to a determination. But in
the mean time he would state what the steps were
which the plaintiff could take. The plaintiff was
now at liberty to enter what was technically
called an interlocutory judgment, and then pro-
ceed to assess damages, first having served an eight-
days' notice. Now, as it was impossible to say how soon
the plaintiff might enter upon Judgment, it would be
advisable that the House should proceed with as
little delay as possible, because, after the damages
had been assessed, the plaintiff might sue for
final judgment, and proceed to levy the damages on the
goods of the defendant. Under these circumstances he
(the Solicitor-General) felt a great degree of anxiety
upon the subject, and how necessary it would be for
the House to act promptly upon it. But at the same time
they should act with calmness and deliberation, and
take care;they had all the necessary materials for so doing
before them. He found, upon referring to the case of
Stockdale, that Lord Campbell, the then Attorney-
General, moved for a Committee of this House upon
that occasion ; and he (the Solicitor-General) did think
it would be extremely desirable to follow a simi-
lar course on the present occasion, and therefore he
would be prepared to move a resolution to that effect.
And then he would propose, in the terms of that resolu7,
tion, that a Select Committee should be appointed, for
'the purpose of inquiring into the proceedings in the i
case of Howard and Gossett, and then to report their
decisions and observations thereupon to the House. He
(the Solicitor-General) would be prepared, in the
course of the evening, to lay on the table of the House
the names of the proposed Committee, so that the House
might come te a decision "upon the subject.

Lord 110 WICK said that he did not object to the
motion of the Honourable and Learned Gentleman the
Solicitor-General, but he could not help saying that the
present position of the Howe realised the remarks
of the Hon. and Learned Member for Worcester (Sir T.
Wilde) on a former occasion. He said that when he re-
collected the weak and pusillanimous course which the
House had on a former occasion adopted, and were now
proceeding to adopt, he fund it only realising the opi-
nion expressed by that lion. and Learned Gentleman :
They were dragged on step by step till they lost all their
privileges by their submissive concessions to the courts
of law.

Sir R. H. INGLIS said that he had not intended to
have said one word upon that occasion, but when he found
the Noble Lord taunting the Legislature of the country
with pusillanimity and weakness, he for one could not
sit still in his place without replying to him. lie (Sir
11. 11. Inglis) was present in the Court of Queen's Bench,
and he could verify the assertion of the Noble and
Learned Gentleman, that the Learned Judges there did
not decide against the warrant as a warrant, but they ob-
j•cted to it that no specific object was mentioned in it.
If the observations of the Noble Lord were 'correct it
was suffi •ient that the Sergeant-at- Arms should conic
to the place and seize the first Peer of the re.,lm. He
hoped that the House would not have the pusillartitnity
to deal otherwise with inferior persons. If the powers
of the House be good for Justice Colerid2e and Justice
),;nman, they were good for every Justice. If he wished to
struggle with the courts ef law, he would bring the
Lord Chief Justice before the bar of the house, instead
of the sheriff, or any other ministerial officer. Every
other warrant specified the case and the time that the
person should remain in custody. The warrant did not
constitute such authority as they acted on in the name of
the Queen.

The motion was then put and carried.
MAYNOOTIT.
Sir R. INGLIS presented petitions from several places
in England, Scotland, and Wales, against the grant to
Maynooth, and from several Presbyteries in Scotland,
which were signed on behalf of them by the moderators.
Mr. BANKES presented petitions from divers places
in Somersetshire, Wiltshire, and various other places,
against the grant. •

•
-Lord BERNARD presented petitions from places in
Ireland to a similar effect.
_ _

Mr. PATTISON presented several petitions against
the grant.

Mr. SHAW, from Dublin and other places to a like
cff CL

Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD presented petitions
from several places in the north of England against the
grant, one signed by 20,000 people, and he thought it
would be right to state the prayer ef this petition. The
petitioners stated that they were opposed to all State
grants, and especially to the present, because it would tend
to the endowment of the Catholic priesthood. At the
same time they expressed their strong dislike to the
Established Church in Ireland, which had been sustained
against the feelings of the people.
Sir Thomas Spry, Mr. Palmer, Mr. Stuart Wortley,
and Lord Castlereagh, presented petitions from various
places in England and Ireland to a similar effect.
Sir R. PEEL presented petitions from Limerick and
other places in favour of the grant.
Mr. HINDLEY presented a great number of petitions
from various places in England against the grant.
Sir H. Milford, Mr. Darby, Mr. Duncan, and Colonel
Wood presented petitions against the grant.
An IloN. Mt.:mnErt (whose name we could not learn)
presented a petition from Menmouth, signed by 33 people,
out of a population of 30,000, against the grant.
Mr. PACKE presented petitions from Dissenting con-
gregations in several places to a similar effect.
Sir T. FREMANTLE presented a petition from Tun-
bridge Wells and other places in favour of the grant.
Mr. C. BRUCE presented a petition from Elgin and
other places against the grant.
ACADEMICAL EDUCATION (IRELAND).
Lord J. RUSSELL—I wish to ask the Right Hon.
Baronet at the head of the Government what day he
would name for the second reading of the Bill for Acade-
mical Education in Ireland ?

Sir R. PEEL—I cannot exactly define the day upon
which the second reading- of that Bill will be introduced,
but at the conclusion of the debate on the Maynooth
question I will name the day.
Mr. EWART said he had a notice on the paper in
reference to this question, which was to this effect :
On the third reading of the Maynooth College Bill, to
move that, while it is expedient to open all the
public educational establishments of Ireland to the
Catholics, to reduce to its due dimensions the Irish
Church, and to establish entire civil and religious
equality between Great Britain and Ireland, it is not
advisable to extend the principle of making any religious
denomination endowed by and dependent on the
State. In bringing forward this motion he begged to
assure the Right Honourable Baronet opposite, and the
Hon. Members on that side the House, that while he
was in favour of the most liberal and extended system
of education to all denominations of Christians, he was
opposed to any religious endowment by the State
of any institution. And now, sshen this question was
coming before that House for a final decision, he
did think it but just to those out of doors, who were
opposed to it, to have their opinions and feelings ex-
pressed. He had the honour of differing from the opi-
nions of the Hon. Member the representative of the
University of Oxford upon this question, and also
from the Right Honourable Gentleman the Recorder
of Dublin and the Recorder of London. The standard
they had raised bore a device far too exclusive for him.
Their line of march was separate and distinct. Its uni-
formity and consistency might be described in the words
of Milton—

" Anon they move
In perfect phalanx to the Dorian mood
Of flutes and soft recorders; all the while
Sonorous Oxford blowing martial sounds'

He hoped the Hon. Member for Oxford University would
pardon him for this allusion ; but he felt compelled to
say that though he differed from him on many points in
reference to this question, he agreed with him only on
the principle that it was not wise to endow religious
establishments. He did not mean to say he was opposed
to existing endowments, but he vas opposed to their ex-
tension, whether that extension was to be made to May-
`;nooth or to any other institution, for he did think that
all theological establishments should be left to themselves.
He did not admire any Government interference with
matters of religion, and the success which the Go-
vernment had met with on a former memorable occasion,
when the Right Honourable Baronet the Secretary
of State for the Home Department introduced his
Factory Bill, furnished an ample proof of the
inutility of advocating mixed theological and political
questions. He doubted, therefore, the wisdom of
agitating questions which involvbd the subject
of religion, and this was the reason why he
now differed from the Government on the
question of an endowment to Mayn loth. Such
a course might have been in place some forty or
fifty years ago, but there was a new spirit abroad now.
He believed that a purer principle actuated the people
than the principle of endowtm nts—he meant the volun-
tary principle. The voluntary principle manifested its
truth to the minds of' the people of this country, and it
now occupied the place which the principle of endow-
ments did at a former period. This fact was proved by
what had taken place in two of the Established
Churches of this country. It was owing to the increase
of the voluntary principle, that the Free Church in
Scotland had separated itself from the parent establish-
ment; nor was it lessowing to the insinuation of voluntary
principles into England, that Tractariauism had diffused
itselfin Oxford, and extended its influence over thecountry.
A change had come over the spirit of the country,
which called on that House to legislate in conformity
with it, but he was told that this system was not a sys-
tem of endowment, but simply an act of
restitution. He would like to know what in this
case was meant by the phrase " act of restitution."
Was the Church of Ireland asked to restore to the Ca-
tholic Church what she had taken from her ? No,
This was to be exacted from the people of this country—
it was to be taken out of the Consolidated Fund. He
should not oppose any principle of restitution,
but this was not so. He thought that, if they took
from the superfluities of the Irish Church it would
be well, but instead of doing so, they deducted this
something from the necessities of the English people.
It was an anomaly to call on the people of this country
to contribute from their hard-earned labour to the ex-
tension of religion, when that Church, which was now
almost the mockery, as it had long been deemed
the disgrace of this country, possessed so much wealth.
That was the course which he, for one, would have pre-
ferred ; and he begged to ask Right Hon. Gentlemen
opposite what course they intended to pursue ? He
asked, did they mean to make their stand upon this Bill,
or to extend the principle so far as the endowment
of the Roman Catholic clergy?—(Hear, hear.) He
believed that they would give dissatisfaction to the Pro-
testant portion of the United Kingdom, and that they
would at the sometime give-no satisfaction to the Roman
Catholics.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord the
Member for London had said that he_ was prepared
to carry out the genuine principle of endowment,
and to give salaries to the Catholic clergy out of the
Consolidated Fund. The Hon. and Learned Member for
Edinburgh echoed the sentiment.—(Hear, hear.) The
Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Home
Department thought that he also was in favour
of the endowment of the priests. But the
Right Honourable Baronet at the head of the
Government maintained a prudent silence on the sub-
ject.—(Hear, hear.) Ho believed that the spirit
of endowment had passed away, and that a
purer spirit—that of the reformation and of primitive
Christianity had taken its place.—(Hear, hear.)
He was willing to aid in measures of
the largest liberality to Ireland, to compensate
fir Fast oppressions. But he did not think this measure
was calculated to do so, and therefore, not wishing to
prolong the debate, he concluded by moving according
to notice.

Mr. MARSLAND seconded the motion. He fully
emitted the wrongs and oppressions hich the Irish
nation had suffered under the domination of a more
pooverful country,; but he did not think that a
further • extension of the bad principle of that
endo.vvment would do anything to ameliorate the pre-
sent condition of the people, or to compensate for their
past wrongs. He disclaimed all feeling of hostility to
his f allow Catholic subjects—he disclaimed all participa-
tion "in the " No Popery" cry.—(Hear, hear.) But what
he Asserted was, that while they were applying what
were called remedial measures in Ireland, they were put-
t:A(l'lg on blisters upon England ; in fact, they were not
laying the axe to the root of the evil in Ireland, while
they were creating ill-feeling and in England.
It had been said the Dissenters were inconsistent in re-
ceiving the Reyium Donuts and raising the cry that had
been raised against the grant to the College of May-
nooth. If the assertions that had been made were true,
the Dissenters would certainly have been most incon-
sistent ; but there were many of them that objected as
strongly as any denomination could do to the receipt of
the liegiunt Donum. Acting on those opinions, he should

vote against the third reading am
of the Bill when it came
tee,
before the House, and he would do so on the seluer
ciple with that avowed by the Hon. Memberf r
fries, namely, that the Church should not be prot c
by the State. but the
The gallery was then ordered to be cleared,
House did not proceed to a division. rind
Mr. EWART said that he had justified the Fri
lot
on whirls ha intended to vote, and he would not, ag.tufb,,
the opinion of a majority of Hon. Members, Pte' the
divisien.—(We understood that during our absence
amendment had been negatived.) f which
Mr. BANKES, in proposing the amendment ol ,
toe
he had given notice, tt that the Bill be read a ih.r°oool
that day six months," which was tantamount t° fthe
being read at all, begged for the indulgence,!eeet
House, particularly as he would request their attc,„;ght,
to some previous portions of the debate, and he:indult
perhaps, the more think himself entitled to thealetouse
ghteintehea,dtheretandeiljbagdi‘neont
vl4etroto addressed tll sop,
.. the groups" ?a their
Members who had risen on every night to exPlTati the
votes to their constituents.—(Hear.) He , them
more readily assented to this, laccretis fete
was no necessite for himself explaining, t him'
He
sthrovafiinly
self any degree of merit, or because he who bed
acted otheritmv
this, not because he assumed .°bee
ipsouttahLonheonditdh.nsedelown.eutereashkerstheug!bite;
under what circumstances this question was b bee,
fore them, and b what means the measure had.e 010,1°'
vanerd
eitnyt"(i, h
etaov iemttseadj presentofrittmajority
h soetfas ge
second
ne
dlciroceun:VdtOiril.d sill.
i. Ifori:;
s
tßhaartotnheet afet,tiiiire,ghseoafdthoef the GoverngtniaeTnnhdteshritalbseiste:etfiltstietill
were most repugnant petooplteboisf Empeasur6--is bleb tP
what he had antiei ,ated, and the result, to yr...noise
Right llon. Baronet lad come was, that in.Psrletf 01°
increasett
h() e t
Fh ei
rss ttrb(isni
ct.,:.nihsetroegrfi
eostfhaapt thde opinion,cro exertv3 it
tpoboce clear
carry
enclivrti stohhi
entice;
sure. his Hon. Friend the Secretary for the Rhe direr ,
into
cerried his efforts still further, for powe
the all3et, ee
into the scale against the people, tte- neje "-:1011.
weight, and popularity of his Sovereign. sight Pp
there to enter into a Controversy with the ton's
Baronet as to his authority as Home Sech Right
ect re llas'
use of this power. He admitted that tlied Patetior
Baronet had precedent for the oeurse hanker)reineete
but the only authority that he (Afe• •1350,11,,0ct
bered as a precedent, was of the Righton 0"-bi
aeotine:eed-nabstiail(mle)anann,king. He remembered that,o ted to y
the same Right Honourable Gentlereesa also Wige,
representation,
eapnr
Banker)
es.
n)
tiaakettniiiolieene
,olf
(fth)sttaeiwhnieedeStl Honourable
Majestyiat ceth,roeeubi course:
nagend:eye's.ai
tbiehre:cirri
oieitieldnertiron:t::oll illborn: ast°,ollleo
the
er sganucestitoienntoats
this
sire t° °dolt'
measure.adyde eidHeed, he trustee ,r
though the House might not be, entitled
lowed stoat
pellation of a representative, they still reectee
berative body. He believed that, it' been tiLig• bJ
particulars, his Right Hon. Friends ha
e- t icas -ot.
They had no idea of the repugnance t"a eie pelt eirS
tto t de
gpaevoeplitiiisofutighhistefolu.nnt.ric aiennddSfclitland for a be
johleesc,eodnftehratatbhoe)o.nhonad the
en
mellae
eof Ire feeliol; eke t
h p* kn The rntst6
this measure was a general one ; ari" the Di° hete4
suppose that it had been confined W - the etetsteere'
England and Scotland. It was not because at that
the Church of England had been crt jesF:differeet.eolic°
fore they were to be considered as, tdegoetseeel
Right Hon. Friend had formed a verY'll'to this „te.e'h be
of the Estaldished Church with reePecttition"-00!),
Let the Right Hon. Baronet look to Pe,e,
appeared in the newspaper of that eaortnureetteis
dt
the Lord Bishop of Cashel, from the elergf
against this Bill. sign.ttirei
The Earl of LINCOLN—How Wag
Mr. BANKES—Oh, a good man)" f
The Earl of LINCOLN—Not mans; e eet 0-.004
Sir H. W. BARRON—Signed by tee eft't
Mr. BANKES continued—At any rabeee 5. sal
signed by a very respectable portion of the 04 and
diocese of Cashel and Waterford. :itiagaer,a,
Learned Gentleman the Member for mt that 11`,',61 IP7
called them " fanatical insurgents ;" fob
ottetrifire
Learned Gentleman's genius freellenetrahes) hat
reel;
judgment and discretion. Ile (gr. which be
with
felt
efcurr,.reedd, inae
ttihbeepsrbaL'elrdosfupthpeerpteittitlctonot:t, I,oootseed.
be en° Ps' • es
aas an honourable compliment to Those tobesh
petitions:of many of the Dissenters. b the tie t°
had no desire to destroy or distill*. a tlesee Chef
Church. They were only actuated D):1, weieu her t't,
vent the spread of a religious lefeWshocel
lieved to be anti-scriptural. The eh I's'land shrill)/
hefbruetm mheaedti
meeting
found h
the
himselfln. in a dilemare oefere„eetl
Sheffield had indeed attacked the Chain, and bs, th
member for shetn gt:
bercoo. 00,
time he proposed. The Hon. Mena but they
suited the heals of his own PartY' then, Its it
Ijo '414
him no satisfactory advice, and hp biro ,fliaber,
he
sestor of 00,174,
eciotnhseurlt;edartidheheCahbaindetr,eewebuorsecoulate'e aleolowi-to
mfoeunntdotfhteimiesemlvoetsioinn;
Montrose, who was,
dieticulet7s e was the ▪do °
it seemed' thelted by Ile,r°o°,l
seeing that he was always (Laughter. IWO
al
vice of the Hon. Member for lion ~ it le,",111°,
Fee," said
thehe, °'
secotiab'ich
abandon your motion, or postpone it, .0, in wv, i,
of the Bill will be lost." This was the edifectolotttli
Hon. Member for Sheffield got out of 11's,.,,diog feel
al3,:i was smuggled
csomtluao.ngal,o dw
that was the way in which the second thecne
against the Maynooth Bill had been neis,ts ej of 'fie
coolsergo bed
arc'
pression of public opinion in Ireland?ith tee gin
messenger that had been sent there r: bestri4io Le
tidings returned ? Had he come hare's t5O
hand the olive branch of raee 'eon tPO-oho
turned to tell the English na- foot e,tionseilt
I:tottnlguhstthbee 100 hp;bo
,heo.
Royal mistress could set hernese (071 e°,,,e"
Irish shore in safety and in peace ?~lin bad
would leave to be answered as best the weiebeeo,7"pe
In reference to many of the eTtitioits_
_foe e,,,stek.,
presented by the Dissenters against We lb;h OPet
d bar ..Lot on
admit there were many unsound an iaa, e.eas fee
me'
regard to the Roman Catholic reltgoeetglee, °fed
authority for the use of these unususl,bciatet,S7ooooo
nated from no less a source tban the r".O tl!ijto
House itself. They were to be loan; 0 josg
the reign of King William 111., an boo slo3Moi' 0
words stood, the Dissenters ought not tee or yid bet4o',
attached to them or receive any hin°3etitionseroirese
them. He did not believe that those P
s.uhiegi sije
laid on the table with the intention ofeicinee eleePriel.
ing the Irish people ; and he regrets been
IfOtri AP?
man the manner in which they had gisilrob et,
et
was induced to give every credit to theto the 'to )
ne° or
good will which they intended i 0 0f he felt 0 getlf the
gr
by means of the Maynooth Bill ; buntsll oo_, the 00
the majority of the Irish Proteets, et ogo?"0 010
posed to it, and the measure would vele
least satisfaction.—(ilear.) The atradnaletej
e 0 e 0
original Maynooth grant had been ,goit 14%0 10000
year after year, and something of had been 000
been given to the privilege which D the 011 flo
joyed; and for this annual ipnaciodinoeticoubsettsittlotle.iateoas ellepro•
le:
the House had been proposed as st ee the, wrote
propose that the amount be
Irish Church, and not out of the P° en,,,a he 09
The assing of the Bill would_nreottePasutrad.!,,,te.poo.beetlaeo,
ifitsadei:lo
tagonistic demands of the r
meat had been placed in an awkw_ehe had. eea ear
was satisfied that those member the measuredr to ~,ra
to give their unwilling assent to tile ootiod for to
introduction, if they unhaPPildYiagc, w°°ltbei 05)1
port it through its, third rea „ledge fibeeteer;
after rearet the infelicitous. rfooar• traPrfereoi
bound themselves to give in letsfaie and st int' he
Members had acted altogether ing,ey had n5;,...4b1ail
ward manner on the question. eLt; ‘peogreriaell for 10;
in the slightest degree with iota or° eine°
waited patiently and in silence, aof a new no sled
with joy the grant as the dawning t the °l3ltscritr,o
land. Now that they had seen sy,hatu be TPA! th,
was proposed to be, it was efoigfear, heirWitbal the
what the termination must be• grid with
tot ttit,
seaters had combined to oppose. of, en 4 ttien_44•
determination they were canaemey stood re st7ettoPo,
power they could muster, and t°,_Y-e0 the. ,eta r
VrOl. ttl 00,
field, for the Established Chure.that e, ettoo
arms, were allied with them Bg1:1! the bittc'x an I_IA esp,
siderations it was apparent tout'
the tight onsider7lig,i°r?
could not be regarded merelY Tea an coot 'title
of mone but it must be taKoethe I'r°' 00• tie'
blow struck against the spread
.1_
0110400 f the a oleo
and against the foundation of
been heard
_th, enaper
It was singular how little had
omisynoo.,_e 00, in to,
establishment of the College
lir f as toetre4,o6o,
t`,
Irish which
House existed a great deal of ignoEroarhineseedribyegtchaee'eoteitella.ttbeedoedo.,l;:
ot
after year in that H,, use;
.1 an
detailed to 10 it acc'elleo
from the egos f°reees,
e could lesagevue(e)fsetxli):3)nreciilt'aealned(r'bilnent.er:dj_t were ghtedense° es 031,J.
tabliehment of the college n
thaverea .ec'incool), ude'
bates. He had recentl.y
Irishdisce house °' 11 "id babe
of the 'proceedings of the
~,
was ,rittsr coo
04 of
it existed on this matter. 1r
hose staternen
man, an honourable man, wiouet correct' ereceeb°lo pee
pended on, end were no
ender to o°loll
,ieg
his statements a year subse9urnee when
the session of the Irish Parlian
on.teeteens
tl'o` ors bee
introduced for the educatio
,_rrpoweelesase 50,4 0*(0
Roman Catholic religion, andd t°
that n f°roo°l
cruing lands. It appeareo,
the 1310 of 9. o,ooeb
0,
introduct d at the end
oat the St' )elfosettioer
to give the trustees of M.W?.'' was foe
.P to
.0
I.lll° la°
of the public money. "n's'tablished
.11 0. . 0 c
both Houses, and became! ,it wort osaectorsci
edered
bet of either House cone . let suP,P
bey did 11 he Plc
itsteen
any opposition, as t
Whiva iet the 'fads ,P
,le
the
einsee(bl
eaptilee:ss::enitaiigilrarst:tl:e.,:tl,o aidifatotrtyvtlegh
endeavours, were bestdeterun,nw"" soot2ho., in iv failat:te
off on such easy condition
t, eniounie,c'signolupe 0
posed an increase to the ge.Wort, hoec_sebieeo In;
receipo
to nearly 40,0004
grtlit"Of I,Btlf°l;hri,_titet:i: civet Oilliblad
bbeutptahide. or
iginal
tiler aceein had o `hat
f the leoliee t one r 11,,
and expenditure 0 that no ha forore, tO
given, when it Wear' Ca matter betee
received from any nomad the wa, 5°600, 'tie
port. The real facts of
noot- catholic Ptudeatsoiti
the establishment at „ avoi. up ..0
t for hri" Pei., .0
red/
None et toe -I°ll°hieli -Ai/risc -.00,
their noviciate. ads .et
ae0p,03,0!..0 titn eine thon ffec
tain
were ever admitted into
_terer. 315140 f thi° lb it bi op'
am certain saunmd
nothing less thin a ra)ildft i'saP ,Pr°b Aati(tll)leob"l9v b°l tbe
Houses expressed their
• orie ste.
N"-
-the college, 'l4. Meoll3.eotittitio
exhibition of great c
tenance 0. o,titth in r coke,
tamplated only the mainn
Cethnlie ,Yl,4e foiLPipi
education of the Roma .
ticalar. re• •te
.040'; .1)""
not for the priests in
Pal oiling te' E,eisc
The Parliament had buenenniiiigno, uLeeict fejt;
;lac
laity did not contneute aere their gt
ltheil the college did not z clittru

t
came
e prig'
Dug/.
Dtecte'A

ut the

rinCiPle
ag
.69 IP

wol

the last session of the Irish Parliament, a measure had
b ,en introdue:d to make a ;rant of something less than
MOW- ; it was passed through the Commons, but was
eventually thrown out in the Lords. It was a no-
torious fact that thirty of the students of the
Mayaooth institution joined the rebellion in '9B.
A visitation of Trinity College am made in the same
Year, and it was ascertained that 17 of the students were
found to ho implicated Thus shire were 17 students
from Trinity, whilst the students at Maynooth were re-
"'lced to 69. It was true that this was given on the
authority of a partisan, and that it appeared in a tract
written for the purpose of facilitating the union, but it
sufficiently showed how grievously the principle which
Was adopted at the establishment of Maynooth had been
departed from, and how different was this from the en-
dowment which had now been so much spoken
of during the debate on this question. The es-
4.,t4tblishment of Dunboyne was altogether on a different
`°°fing- Much, too, had been said of restitution during
this debate; but he would ask to whom was this restitu
"ion to be made? Was it to be made to the monastic
institutions from whom the prop'rty was said to have
been taken? In Spain, during the time the Inquisition
was in full power, such a principle might be advocated.
But in France and every other country where the
Roman Cath 'c religion was exercised with moderation,
such a princi would never be allowed; and he should
be astonished the enlightened monarch now seated on
the
When, throne should ever make such a declaration.
i 1.1 ri t: i st I,
some years ago, the project was mooted for ad-
liaitting members of the Roman Catholic religion to the
h Parliament, a friend of his, w.hose opinion was
ll"s3s entitled to much weight, had pointed to Belgium;
both in a publication out of doors and on the benches
zr that House had said that he had been present in do-
.t.'illtt." Of that august assembly, wherein he had seen the
sia'--118 of Catholic Bslgium and of Protestant Holland
;sated together in calm deliberation under a Protestant
1141" arch, where the interests of both parties were
1111113' considered. This observation, which he be-
th_yed had great influence at the time, was made in
itinvispring of 1829, and in the autumn' of 1830, Hol-
the (;mile
Belgium were separated.—(Hear, hear.) When
tend:stales.°
a of Maynooth was first founded it was in•
k .;:::(1," a general academy, and not as was represented
11,-"„PlY monastic institution. And if the plea were to
ei ;1" Red
that it was to be conducted on the same prin-
itl es asother academic institutions of the Romati Catho-
ve-ehureh, the same objection still held. For if the Uni-
sistissitY of Oxford had been conducted on these exclu-
4,, usages where, be would ask, would Wiekliff have
and if the German Universities had been con-
apt`eo with similar customs, where would Luther have
ltiroels red? But such was not the case, fur it was well
/I_l,W:li...that laymen as well as those intended for the
Might iri were admitted to those institutions. The
taesti„„,- Baronet had stated that this came as no new
nittat;;'-ior he had in the middlecflast session stated his
,71,0ethi:b4 to bring in some measure to improve May-
mat n,,,'11t this was no improvement where everything
tnuitte,lB.good about the grant of previous years
with
tistd to the present Bill—when all its connexion with
tie 1,1,1,e Was done away with, or when at least the only
that Was Prevented entire separation was the money
11ar004,.3 to be paid. How was it that the Right Hon.
Oppos:':! during his nine years' seat on tho.
origin li'len benches had not proposed to double the
aistrve?rant? There was little doubt but that the Mi-
Wish:" tb."oo in power would have readily acceded to his
%lit B He
had had the power himself of doing that in
Ate byes at any Imo neat. It had been truly said that
'rid
r
this question was not perceived, for it ex-
, , the whole endowment of the Catholic Church.
and re-gut exceeded the height of their cathedral spires,
ehoeseched to the throne itself. If this grant was made
etteeesunid tell that anything should prevent a Catholic
Atatietrr to the throne? This was no idle or fantastic
vslioi-, (Bear,-hear)—for the Member for Newark, for
bad' Judgment the highest respect was entertained,
litwstated that which amounted to the same opinion.
tifai would
add what was so beautifully told in the beau-
-11 of ofthe after the
• say poet,
Lhousands had sunk on the ground overpower'd,
kid then weary weary to rest, and the wounded to die,
lish ssoepnei°es on to show that when the Irish and Eng-
alitree - ' !Ying indiscriminately on the battle field, the
Yfight r said to the latter, "Change Kings, and we will
on.ku over azain." So he would say to the Right
Il'dates atenet,dissolre the Parliaincnt and they would fight
e eoeuytlgnie, and checkmate his kings with their pawns.
.or the .i.: remiud the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary
tleoue„'"nie Department of his own conduct during his
'fat' it was of the Reform Bill ; and as he knew
the "eas useless to beseech him to listen to the voice
'bight hcbuetrY, he would defy him to dissolve. They
pose Lerit the section with whom he acted in that
tasoot,,' ottt he-(Mr. Beadles) well knew that they had the
Asa '3' With the
. 0 thatm, and with that impression he should
• kr• m the Bill be read that day six months.
%hod said that, after the most earnest
Illthe •erlttnio of ss_
.sttatin the measure, he had. come to the
din t; determination of supporting the third
s_qieh the He would do so because this was a measure
t of „ n most distorted vision could not torture into an
to
• concession" to Ireland. It was truly a measure
te
..._Justice,
The Government, it was true, had
0404,70anter difficulties, and the principal of them
to • from
s_ it as ‘ the repugnancy. of certain,. persons
.441
44 telilou. rut. F,. •abui e. AS a rrotastant, nawever,
s,Pe•soo ts!nember of the Constitution, he could find, no
s'hristiY. he should deny equal justice to his fellow
"Yth,:_es of the Roman Catholic faith ; and, actuated
%pont," principles, he felt imperatively called upon to
41tid—t-h" the measure. True, the Church of England
ttasaametiehu,.r.ch of Rome was in error, but he fourid no
4setigsm ot Justice that would empower the Church of
ehti to justice
the l'
bett:ll- Thi, J e benefits of education to the sister
seas:eu theses wag no question of theological opinion
sho-vvm mill' churches, It was a question of justice to
land : them that
altoLett' countrymen. Experience had
...en% be • Ple had, far as the Church of Eng-
and su! • %4
talit- .F it wgether unprovided with instruction;
t.y shou_ 42 now id h --w thee that the real church of that
de °I oduem• " employed in disseminating the bless-
-13 ati, ion, T
At was only by this that truth could
tirZitestantismand by this mode only could the benefit of
th vernroent be inculcated in Ireland. He thought the
as of this country had a right to assist. one
thatch.thstes Well as
IN'e 1:1111Aeri another, and surely it was self-evident
%13 Ahem. a cal superiority of the Irish. Catholics
I.°lsld'oet
wn alsdoblited - right to that assistance. He
%I? wheo he eP•rY the House by enlarging on these facts,
Wit% cl th • 84W the spirit ,in which much of the oppo-
e the 1.,? measure had been carried on, he should
inatirt., 4UertV of
ta.,.. ‘44tance , Pointing out to its opponents some
'''esion 8 that Ought to modify their zeal on that
fjf Xl' . 110 Run 1,1 she lailbeth, - not refer them to the cruel statutes
hida"nctia d the subsequent Acts by which
,_`sen. /Cu of Roman Catholic children were for-
a•
the
would not point out particularly to their
cntioneAll_Parochial Acts of Anne ; but he had merely
117°01. i thEt`4tther,e, because, despite of the numerous. pe-
thigh Linio_.ftet been presented to that House, he believed
4 "Nut!. " soul that a new feeling had sprung up in
lishts
...3:--a feeling of desire to do justice to Ireland.
e7SpeZ,_nt passed at all, he conceived it should be
~,,I.to re-' '.net, for he could not conceive any greater
iZonts Tir,l than these annual and mischievous dis-
4i,en to was the nature of the opposition which
esti 1100. t ls measure ? A coalition between the
1,,, , the 4,..._Baronet his Friend the Member for Oxford
iit':lto,gailPhrters of the voluntary principle did appear
I,e,,,totie ibugular apomaly. He could not but remark
to,ltrited _ which the opponents to the measure had fpon also
em_Pon the Members who supported it. He
tkett? the ter his protest against a circular emanating
wo ipt
very al Anti-Maynooth Committee, as con-
virit!!ol read _ questionable morality indeed ; and he
ita'elice w."ne or two extracts from it to show the
settdatipportleth which they regarded the measure and
•Ilow 040 or ?. (The Honourable Member then
shotosupposiswotheaxttltes
Atontis.upport his statement.)
ttilhela lotslowlittat Maynooth Committee
, English gentlemen and Members of
t.vrY to suppose voted voted conscientiously, what right had
o„, arti, •,.17, se that any representation would have af-
orttcuks. iTieuched them to change those conscientious
%nit- - question °Ped, in approaching the consideration
tern their ow_ / the Members of that House would con-
ao Pled to b: Conscience rather than the dictation at-
eate:vhilst o_ enforced by the opponents of the measure;
ben. his
Protest
this branch of the discussion, he would
4,l's hadt'u":itwst to the assumption which those oppo-
$O"- the en at ttarruntably advanced, that a pledge had
. e 418, oo tune of their election by each Member
kaoti: ita asli latu.re against the increase of the grant.
4, Oda of3emption was wholly untenable, either on the
It the Positive e s
NIN toms the, nbagement or equivocal implication.
._Rem__ , ; denouncing such imaginary compact,
Itt-""'oar ,wr in °tie generous, One just, one Christian
th-Tral i° ainelio,-ate the social condition of a vast
i!eY h Portion -
tnel44l3'sed th of
the empire.—(Hear, hear.) If
so,_:e to ever principles principles of their adversaries, how
is er,'na.
.o,'''Y sense of moderation would they not
'‘o C' tru, 4.oaptist minister had stated that he would
•lishelariatetiihts children to the care of a polar bear or
Itapi:lihops. YeQna, as to the guardianship of the Eng-
-ogoled, od let and similar expressions had been
*O,l. ge of ~,„ them remember that it was not the
tet,' eaetoi Ma them
thou h 'ndeed worth of the If °lle 'eB °f the p g i , • y
it• the P(Atticall rotestant Establishment. The
Of e 5t50,...1. given by its opponents appeared to
4%•-6224eiit they m favour of the measure, and the line
wolktitZeta their adopted tending rather to' disarm than
a of r . esistance. Let them remember the
to tuttitin, • -.Lora , .
.itiaoa,.nsinntisestitehlei ;d'
k tpttloaolsethama.en, when first introducing the
taterci tit: institu at it was a wise foundation,calculated
discordant elements of Irish society.
tiosognage, did he speak of the founda-
oeetteios, of an i_n_lvorthy of the country that would
4417_1%144
~L, institution commensurate with the
.in ,„'„tneilti;:'..a vast Roman Catholic population,
'llisted "ttsQ arvolltr_r grant of 9,0001. doled out grudg-
Jt linit withtrtighu disgust ? Was it not rather in-
..elandp might source from which the benefits of
3,Nasc,l:---(Ileor '',. were to flow for the advantage of
.itt the
he had 's'enr-) One argument against the
;Nat eisissista
ofutiiard with shame and sorrow, it was
Za3-400t,atioo,
ihni. J.neooth were taken from the very 171%m ;',t. was '°el tY, and that the fare they got at
IL% kt''' at holt g°°d US what they were accus-
ii'‘t ka Berehl e• ne could not conceive how
Yoloifeesshris.tian men it could be objected
titth, nrieclucati
tizhiett
has vast m
'0 vfil_,eats of AA._ entially apostolical was unmerited
.4-Ite
ore: olighmnooth. It was an important ques-
pat, on looking at the degraded
hs of .s
eats Meat thaenil
acturing and rural districts,
fZ(lahs,dl._ teaohitin.
_,,, e erecter of a Christian Church,
seb, un Engio.4-'1 the Protestant Church as esta•
that of the Roman Catholic
Fa7t,
_ad ?„15 to with. , or
las.krish ty this a few years since proscribed in
I'warp- , from - !-% meaeure England would- withdraw
--4.1,,,,, aattss;
.Inhishi + yuiiestt""'°n ; and, more than that, would
• lift% I' !tee 0
theet
. IL 11% q erit
_,People, for they would much more
Avalti,t4
tileaatiott
thaocr ial benefits of either sectarian or
.+ll)lANispoe zutez t °ugh the ministers of their faith,
% ey wadBed 1 hthell 8 Cif educational boards. He had
ton 11 . r to look
trs4......tdentabi_ - at
. the question as one of state
. mettr
i_e Justice, than on the ground of
near.) Still, on that point also,

he conceived it might easily be urged in consonance
with ju=t reason and equity. The seventh article of the
union provided for the amalgamation of the two coun-
tries by religious conceesions arid charitable endowments.
The question, therefore, became narrowed to the one,
whether that amalgamation should he effected under the
principles agreed on. Whether they would make a
grant to which they were solemnly pledged, and to go
farther—to make a grant commensurate with the re-
quirements of an increasing population. And why
should they not ? They had given the Presbyterians an
endowment for their church, they had given to the Dis-
senters a regium donum, they had joined the Prussian
Church on the faith of a convention, and were they to
refuse to Ireland, the poorest, the most needy of
them all, that measure of justice and assistance
which they had unhesitatingly accorded to others? They
owed a debt of justice to Ireland, not only upon con-
tracts of political—not upon grounds of expediency or
conciliation, or past neglect, but upon the positive merits
and services of Ireland. The Irish had claims upon
England in regard for services such as no other people
had surpassed, services in war, whether rendered by her
army or her navy, services which seconding those of
England had secured her present glory and the safety
of her monarchy ; and fur such services she claimed and
merited the common justice of England ; and while ad-
verting with pride and admiration to the services of Ire-
land, he would express his disbelief of the libel put for-
ward by the pretended friends of that country, that if
an opportunity occurred, they would not, as heretofore,
stand forth the champions of the British Crown. That
libel he scouted with disgust ; but be it remembered, it
was a libel not put forth" by any Saxon, and he would
leave it to its publisher to answer fur it to the Irish peo-
ple.—(Cheers.) Protestantism was in England con-
nected with ennobling associations ; but how had the
Catholics of Ireland known it ? They had known it
only as the religion of those who imposed persecution
and injustice upon them, who framed a treaty only to
violate and abjure it—who enacted a penal code to
shackle and oppress them. Such, till lately, the
Protestant Church had been recognised in Ire-
land ; happily a brighter period had arisen—a gene-
ration had sprung up evincing a spirit of kindliness,
instead of that bitter animosity which had previously
to emancipation characterised and disgraced the country.
It was most important that the Irish Roman Catholics
should not misapprehend the present feeling of Eng-
land towards them, nor mistake the ripple that dis-
turbed the river, for the tide which characterised the
ocean ; and he would impress upon them the truth,
that no longer English tyranny but Irish agitation was
the barrier to improvement in that country.—(Cheers.)
He was generally disinclined to impress his opinions on
the House, and his difficulties were now increased by
those which surrounded the question.—(Hear, hear.)
He had, however, thought it his duty, fear-
lessly to assert his present conviction, and
never did he urge an opinion or give a vote more in
consonance with his sense of duty towards his consti-
tuents, his country, and with the dictates of his con-
science. He gave that vote in favour of a measure
which he regarded as. the precursor of civil and religious
liberty in a more extended and truthful sense. In the
hope and confident belief that it was calculated to silence
complaint and allay division, and if the course, of which
it appeared the earnest, were carried out in all its ful-
ness and perfection, he anticipated confidently the time
when, without the acerbities of past injustice or the
pangs of too just remorse, the two countries would with
sincerity be addressed as " The United Kingdom
of Great Britain and Ireland."—(Loud cheering.)
Captain MANGLES felt that in the present case all
the facts and arguments were in favour of this
measure.—(Hear.) It was said that they ought to
govern Ireland upon Protestant principles. He repudiated
such a doctrine, altheugh he was as zealous a Protestant

as lived. He thought They ought not to deprive Ireland
of those associations and that religion which their an-

cestors had bequeathed to them. He believed that the
Protestant Irish Church, instead of strengthening itself'
by grasping at everything, was weakening its structure
in the greatest degree. For three hundred years the
Protestant Church in Ireland had had in its hands the

whole endowments of that Church, and yet what was it
now? Far less influential than it was three hundred

years ago. It was, in fact, a Church supported by an
army of 20,000 men, in order that the ministers of
it might enjoy their benefices. He believed the
Church of Ireland was the principal grievance
of the Irish people, and was one of the great causes of
the crimes that were committed in that country. He did
not see how the Dissenters could object to the grant, be-
cause they ought to remember their ancestors partici-
pated in the spoliation of the people of Ireland. They
ought to be content, ai he was, to put their hands into
their pockets, in order to afford but a poor restitution for
the injuries that had been done to the people of Ireland.
He had heard Honourable Gentlemen speaking with
astonishment of the ingratitude of the people
of Ireland. What, he would ask, was the course

pursued by this country towards them but that
of merely mitigating injustice. And were the
people of Ireland to be grateful for that ? It was in
vain tl expect that the Irish people would bp grateful
unless they were accorded a full and entire measure of
justice—dealing it out by instalments would never do.
Re had heard with regret comparisons drawn between

the religion of their Roman Catholic brethren and
Illllli,LLVl J. sse it lieaLta
hometanism, Hindooism, and other systems of idolatrous
worship. But, much as he deprecated such comparisons,
he would say, had the Government of this country taken
in former times the endowments of the Mahornetans or
Hinduos of India, and applied them to the support of the
Christian Church, he should feel justified in acting to-
wards them in the same way as he would act towards the
people of Ireland. If they had power to restore to the
people of Ireland their endowments, then he should cer-
tainly support it, but as they had not that power, he
would join with the Government in supporting the grant
to maynooth as an instalment of justice to the people of
Ireland.
Mr. B. ESCOTT said that, having listened attentively
to the whole debate that had taken place in that House
on that subject, and having heard many debates in which
the argument preponderated greatly on one side, he
must say he had never been present at one in which the
arguments of the opposition told so much in favour of the
measure opposed. Many of the Honourable Members
who had taken part against this measure had 'dwelt
upon the-- application of the public money to
the purposes of the Roman Catholic religion. It
was opposed by thousands out of doors, and by
many Honourable Members in that House, upon
this ground. Now, he should like those who rested
thci r opposition on this ground to draw the distinction
between a grant of 9,0001., as already given, an 27,0001.
as now proposed. He could not see any difference in
principle between the present and the smaller grant—if
it was wrong to apply 27,000/. to Maynooth College, it
was equally wrong to vote 9,0001. The Hon. Member
for Dorset (Mr. Bankes) had rested his opposition on
the assumption that the people of England were opposed
to the measure. Instead of this, he (Mr. Escott) be-
lieved that no Member of that House could commit a
more unpopular act than to vote for its rejection. He
did not believe that any class of the people were op-
posed to it. He believed the clergy were not opposed to
it. If so, where were their petitions ? Where was the
petition from Cambridge, of which so much had beeu
said ; where were the petitions from the deaneries and
archdeancries against the passing of this Bill ?
He had lately passed about ten days in the country, and
he had only met one or two who were opposed to the
measure; while one of the best supporters of it he had
come in contact with was a clergyman of the Church of
England. He was satisfied that the people of this
country were in favour of this measure, because it was
their belief that it would benefit the people of Ireland.
Some parties who opposed this measure were against
not only the endowment of a college for the priests of
the Roman Catholics of Ireland, but even against the
toleration of that religion itself. That course had
been already tried and failed. It had been tried during
the Cromwellian period, but it had failed to put down the
Roman Catholic religion. That faith had triumphed
against the tyranny which had been then attempted to
prostrate it.. The Hon. Member for the University of
Oxford did not think it proper to take away the 9,0001. ;
and if he did not, surely it was no more than just
that as the Roman Catholic population of Ireland had
increased from two and a halt millions to seven millions
since that sum of 9,000/. was first granted, that an in-
creased amount should be now given for their enlarged
educational wants. It was not so much as a question of
pounds, shillings, and pence that he supported it, but as
a measure, in the language of the first Minister of the
Crown, to build up a temple of peace between the two
countries. He did not look upon it as a final measure,
for he was no supporter of the miserable finality policy
which had broken up the previous Government, but as
an instalment of justice to lay the foundation of freedom,
peace, and good will throughout the United
Kingdom.—(Hear, hear.) It was said that we should
look to the present proceedings of the Roman Catholics of
Ireland, as a proof that the object sought to be obtained
by the measure had failed. Instead of being satisfied
with the measure, it was said the Roman Catholics of
Ireland would rest short of nothing but the wild scheme
of the Repeal of the Legislative Union between the two
countries. But he would say—though the Hon. Member
for Cork, and those who followed him, no doubt adopted
that policy—he was sure the great body of the good and
peaceable Roman Catholics of Ireland sympathised with
the opinions expressed by the Hon. Member for Arun-
del, rather than with those of the Hon. Member for
Cork. In dealing with the members of the Roman
Catholic religion, he would remind the House,
in all matters of this kind. " to do unto
others as they would that others should do unto
them." They, as Protestants, should consider what
would be their feelings if placed in the position of their
Roman Catholic brethren, and the Government refused to
treat them on thstj ust and enlightened principle. They
should recollect that it was to the Roman Catholic faith
that they were indebted for the foundation of their colleges
and public schools ; that by it their Bible had been pre-
served ; that to it they had been under obligations for
many of their most excellent statutes and liberties ; and
•
that its generosity and munificence in works of
charity and benevolence were attested by a cloud
of witnesses.—(Hear.) All these were illustrations
of its past greatness. They should, therefore, as mem-
bers of the Protestant Church, and as members of the
United Kingdom, concede • to the people of Ireland
this measure of justice. He thanked the Ministers for
the measure. He rejoiced at its introduction, as he
thought it was calculated to servo the best interests of
that country. Let them carry forward the good work of
justice in the liberal and enlightened spirit in which
they had begun, and the time would come when those
who opposed the measure would regret that they had
done so, and when the people of Ireland would enjoy,
from a wise and enlightened policy, the blessings Of a
brighter and a happier day—a never-ending day of
charity and peace.—(Cheers.)
Mr. SI'OONER said, the Hon. Member who had just
sat down had begun his address by making a statement
in which he would find he had been very much mistaken,
for he bad contended that he.(Mr. Spooner) bad argued.

the merits of this question as a question of pounds,
shillings, and pence, or, in other words, that it was a
question as to whether 9,000/. or 27,000/ should be the
annual grant. Now, he begged to say, that he
never did treat this a: a money question, or as
any other than a religious question, and that he
would persevere in opposing it solt ly from conscientious
motives. When this question was first introduced to the
House, he said he would be willing to make any sacrifice
to conciliate Ireland, short of a measure involving a ques-
tion of conscience. But now let him ask the Hon. Mem-
ber who had last spoken whether he had read the thirty-
first article of the Church of which he had no doubt he
was a religious and conscientious member? That article
contained these words. (Here the Hon. Member essayed
to read a document he held in his hand, but after several
attempts he appeared to be unable to decypher its con-
tents, which caused considerable laughter. Having
made out a few words such as " blasphemous,"
" masses," he then continued.) He begged to re-
mind Honourable Members opposite, that it was not
by clamour that parties could be convinced, or
that ridicule could be deemed argument ; and, there-
fore, he was led to suppose that they had resorted to
ridicule because argument had failed them. And he
begged to tell the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary of
State for the Home Department in the same words, that
numbers did not constitute conviction. Let him (Mr.
Spooner) not be misunderstood—towards his Roman
Catholic fellow subjects individually he felt the sincerest
friendship and regard, and he gave them credit for
acting acc)rding to the dictates of their conscience. But
he looked upon this question as one which asked the
House and the count' y whether the Roman Catholic or
the Protestant religion was the religion of the Scrip-
tures; and if the answer should be in favour of the for-
mer, then it should be admitted that the Protestant re-

ligion was a complete delusion. He was ready to admit
that this was not the place in which to enter upon a
polemical discussion.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) He
was aware that many of h's remarks would not be
received with cordiality by those who were now listen-
ing to him. Neverthess he would not flinch from de-
claring, openly and honestly, what he felt to be his im-
perative duty. This measure had been reported
upon without the slighest inquiry having been
made as to the course of education pursued at
Maynooth, but he would state what it was.
The first book to which he would call the attention of
the House was one which they would find alluded to in
the report of the Irish Education Committee, at page
449 of that report. The book to which he alluded was
that of Beilly. In the second volume of that work,
page 138, they would find it laid down that the Pope
might dispense with oaths ; and in another page of the
same bock, it was stated that the Supreme Prelate could
dispense with vows and oaths in all cases. In this the
writer was confirmed by St. Thomas Aquinas, and
several others. Dr. M`liale said that it was laid down
as a proposition that the utility of the Church was a just
cause of the dispensation from oaths, and that the
superiors of the Church were the judges of what was
for the utility of the Church. Then there was Gelasius
(as we understood)—the name being received with
suppressed laughter by several Hon. Members, the Hon.
Gentleman continued. The mention of that name might
cause laughter amongst Hon. Gentlemen opposite, but
the book which he had mentioned was a class-book at
Maynnoth. It Hon. Gentlemen doubted it, let them go
into that inquiry which he asked for. Gelasius said
that bishops had the power of releasing persons from
oaths provided just cause existed. And who were to be
the judges of the just cause ? Why the Catholic
prelates themselves. He would ask the Hon. Member
for Montrose if he was prepared to make this annual
perpetual grant, and to give this large sum of money to
persons irresponsible to Parliament ? It wasin vain to
say that this measure would be a •final measure, or that
it would be received as such by the Catholics
of Ireland. The Roman Catholics would not
be doing justice to themselves, holding, as they
did, that theirs was the primitive church—holding, as
they did, that all who differed from them were heretics,
they would not, ho said, be faithful to themselves if they
accepted this as a final measure. It would be only looked
upon by them as a stepping-stone to further concessions.
He would entreat the House then to pause before they
sanctioned this measure. If they doubted, then was the
time to stop this Bill and to demand inquiry. The Pro-
testant Members of that House had in the most solemn
manner declared their belief that the Catholic religion
was idolatrous and superstitious, and yet they were
asked to give their consent to a measure for
the training up of the priesthood who taught
that religion. It was the paramount duty of the
Government before they did this, and of the Lord
High Chancellor of the Kingdom to come down to Par-
liament and ask that that declaration be no longer bind-
ing. It had been said that the feeling which had been
evinced on this question was not a spontaneous feeling,
but the effect of dictation and agitation. But could any
sensible man think that without some responding feeling,
that any set of men, however talented, sitting
in a room in London, could cause to be laid
on the table of that Hous© petitions 'deeper
and thicker than the heaviest fall of snow on Scotch
mountains.—(Laughter.) The people of Great Britain
thought and acted for themselves. The great body of
the petitioners were men who acted on the spur of the
moment. His Right Hon. Friend at the head of the
YeiiieflZT —lihd.steNribeA . MaeVACTS
tion, but his Right Hon. Friend should know that re-
ligious feeling was deep in the minds of the
people of this country. The warning which his
Right Hon. Friend gave last session did not alarm
the country, because they looked upon him as the Pro-
testant leader of a Protestant country—as the Protes-
tant adviser of a Protestant Sovereign—as the leader of
a party which rallied round him for four years, and
placed him in that high,and honourable position for the
purpose of preserving the institutions of the country as
they found them; and, above all, for the purpose of con-
serving and preserving the constitution, which this mea
sure went directly to undermine. He challenged the
Right Hon. Baronet to test the feelings of the country
—he felt sure he was conscientious, and that nothing
but a sense of public duty would induce him to do what
he hadslopet—but let not the Right ion. Baronet pro-
ceed further in this coin se before he threw himself on
the Protestant feeling of the country; and if he acted an
accordance with their, feelings, ho would find that
warm support which he could not otherwise obtain.
He might depend upon iti the country would not sub-
mit quietly to this change—the greatest change that had
ever been proposed by any Minister.of the Crown since
the days of the Revolution. He called upon the Right
Hon. Baronet to appeal to the country, and if the voice
of the country was found favourable to the measure, he
would never more give it an iota of opposition ; but let
not the country undergo that change at the hands of a
Minister who had been placed in power under very
different expectations.—(Hear, hear.) They might
plaister the wounds of the public mind, but they would
break out with increased virulence ; the public feeling
might smoulder, but it would break out sooner or later ;
and he therefore called upon the Government to pause
before they committed this great error, which they could
not recal, and which would, he conscientiously believed,
be fatal to the honour, the peace, and the prosperity of
this country. lie thanked the House for the manner in
which they had heard him. He had no feelings of ill
will towards his Catholic fellow-countrymen,with many of
whom lie lived in terms of friendship. He gave them
credit for honour and honesty ; and he thought that if
they did not act as they had done, they wou/' sot be
performing their duty according to the views of ene re-
ligion to which they belonged.
Mr. C. BULLER said he told his Hon. Friend the
Member for Waterford that he was doing an exceedingly
foolish thing when he entered into the subject of
theology, and entered into an explanation of the doc-
trines of the Roman Catholic Church, for he might be
sure Hon. Members on the other side would quote
volumes of theology.—(A laugh.) See the consequence.
The Hon. Member for Birmingham had thrown aside all
other questions, and entirely devoted himself to the study
of the Catholic divines—(Laughter)—the 140 volumes
of St. Thomas Aquinas, and the voluminous writings of
Talacosius, wasn't it ?—(Laughter.) Well, then, Gal-
latius, or some such name. The lion. Gentleman seemed
to have waded through these, and having found in them
two or three doctrines which he considered reprehensible,
called upon the House to condemn the measure under its
consideration. So that they were to refuse this measure
of concession to their Roman Catholic fellow-subjects
because the Hon. Member for Birmingham had found,
among the immense collection of the works of the great
writers of the Catholic Church, monuments of the
ability and zeal of barbarous times, a few opi-
nions which he considered repulsive.—(Loud cheers.)
After this warning, he hoped Hon. Members, in the fu-
ture discussion of this question, would leave the question
of theology where it then stood. The Hon. Member for
Birmingham seemed to be fearful of encountering ridi-
cule. He could assure the Hon. Gentleman that he was
not inclined to ridicule him. It was more in sorrow than
in anger that he heard such discussions, and in such a
spirit. He felt pained that the Hon. Member should
think it necessary to declare in that House that their
Roman Catholic fellow-subjects were labouring under an
awful delusion. He certainly thought that an Hon.
Member who spoke in that way—an Hon. Member who
took credit to himself for a considerate regard for his
Catholic fellow-subjects, and who yetcould insult them in
this deliberate manner, was himself labouring under an
awful delusion. He hoped there was no occasion to be
guided by the advice of the lion. Gentleman and the Hon.
Member for Dorset to dissolve Parliament. He did not
see any necessity for it.—(Laughter.) The Hon. Mem-
ber for Dorset said that the Right lion. Gentleman the
Secretary of State for the Home Department had ad-
vised a dissolution of Parliament on the Reform Bill ;
but the reason of that was, that the Reform Bill had
been thrown, of which there was no chance of the May -
nooth Bill. He was one of the very few Members who
had received no la m eistranee from his constituents on
this subject, although he had given the Bill and would
give the Bill his moat anxious and zealous support, and
he thought that his constituents had them by acted pro-
perly, and shown that they thoroughly understood the
real principle of a representative Government. Helooked
upon the provision for the education of the Catholic
clergy as a great good, and he regarded it as a stop in
the right direction—the first advance towards a just
and concililiatory line of policy towards Ireland. It was
not a mere change of opinion in a particular man, but a
total change of policy which must now be persevered in,
whatever Government was in office. Roman Catholics
were now put upon a level, in point of civil rights,
with their Protestant fellow-subjects. The Emancipa-
tion Bill had been passed—the penal laws had been
abolished—the Catholic Bequests Bill had been carried
into -operation—and now the Government proposed a
measure which would afford a full and satisfactory mode
of edifeatims to the Roman Catholic priesthood. He re-
wardeir all these things as a portion of that line of
policy which would ultimately be found the most
bettefleiaL Coercion bad failed, and it was most remark-
&Me that ihe very men who most strenuously opposed
thoise measures of relief to Roman Catholics were now
th etr most ardent eupportgat nay, actually brought them