The Sun.
London, England, 1842-08-06 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY MORNING, AUGUST 6, 1.842

Mr. O'CONNELL moving an amendment in the
clause to the effect, that the number of the Members of
the Legislature nominated by the Crown be five instead
of ten.
Mr. P. HOWARD seconded the amendment.
Lord STANLEY objected to the proposition of the
H on. and Learned Gentleman. He had already given
fifteen Members to the popular party whilst to the Go-
vernment party he had only given ten. He could not
then consent to reduce the number of the latter, as his
so doing would give an undue majority to the popular
party over the party nominated by the Crown, in the
proportion of fifteen to five.
After a few words from Mr. V. SMITH and Mr. lltesue,
The Committee divided. The numbers were—
For the amendment
Against it B2
Majority against the amendment —6l
Lord CHARLES FITZROY moved as a proviso to
be added to the clause, that such Member of Council
shall not vote on any question of supply, taxation, or
finance.
Mr. O'CONNELL said that if these Members, who
were not representatives of the people, should vote
on questions of tas.ations, it would be contrary to every
principle of the constitution. Unless this proviso were
agreed to cases might arise in which the
money of the people might be voted away with-
out one of the representatives of the people
concurring in the vote, or a miserable minority of
the representatives might vote away monies contrary to
the opinion of the large majority by the assistance of
these Members of Council.
Lord STANLEY said that the party which had the
greatest interest in economy in voting the supplies in
Nowfoundland was the mercantile party, inasmuch as
all the supplies were derived from duties imposed
upon commerce. The struggle on the part of the
Assembly had always been to vote away public
money for the internal improvement of the
island, and for their own salaries. The struggle
on the part of the mercantile party, had always been to
keep it down; therefore the state of things in Newfound-
land was quite the reverse of what it was in this country.
It was necessary that the mercantile body should have
some means of controlling the expenditure.
Mr. HUME supported the amendment. He thought
the proposition a fair and reasonable one.
The Committee then divided, when the numbers were—
For the amendment
Against the amendment 79
Majority against the amendment
The gallery was again cleared, on the question that
the clause do pass, when there appeared—
For the Clause 79
Against it 25
Majority for the clause
The clause was then agreed to. The other clauses
were agreed to without amendment, the House resumed,
and the Report was ordered to be brought up to-morrow.
RIBBONISM IN IRELAND.
Mr. O'CONNELL said that he believed he'eould now
make the motion of which he had given notice respect-
ing the late trial for Ribbonism at Armagh. His object
was not to pronounce any premature censure upon the
Government as connected with the transaction in ques-
tion. He thought there could possibly be only one
opinion as to the nature of those transactions, especially
as to the employment of the witness Hagan. The only
question appeared to be, upon whom did the responsi-
bility devolve? If the misconduct was to be attributed
to the Magistrates and witnesses, they would be liable
to censure, and without anticipating any connexion be- 1
tween the Government and those parties, if the Govern-
ment sanctioned the conduct of those witnesses, he
thought he would be safe in saying that the House
would be unanimous in censuring such conduct. He
did not suspect that the Noble Lord (Eliot) partici-
pated in those transactions. The mode in which he per-
sonally conducted himself in Ireland precluded such a
notion. It was not for him to speak in terms of flattery
of the Noble Lord, but he might speak of him as an
act of justice, and he was sure if the Noble Lord had
more power, there would be no cause for complaint.
The trial at Armagh was one of Ribbonism, and as that
was an expression fortunately not known in this country,
he would state what the nature of that offence was. It
was a crime committed by persons who entered into
secret societies and made Use of signs or pass words fbr
be
lee a
ntyo
dreeficiol
egdn i,s)eb
eeeatc hn f other.bese
hawever,j certainly a
asse oe
er 'hei purposetdi n
ons no
ft of
pa pebrpeseioanntg•
sto a
it
was,
highly criminal association, and, he knew no man who
was really a friend to Ireland, who had not exerted
himself to put down these societies. He begged the
House to keep in it ind that the possession of pass-words
made the person liable to transportatioe. Four persons
were tried at the last Armagh Assizes ; two witnesses
were produced to procure a conviction ; one of these was
a man named Hagan, who had acted as a spy upon the
prisoners ; he pretended to be a Ribbonman, he joined
them ; made himself acquainted with their secrets
and their pass-words, and this he had done for
the express purpose of denouncing them. The
Honourable and Learned Gentleman proceeded to read the
evidence of Hagan, the approver, which has already
appeared in the public papers, to the effect that the Ma-
gistrates
were aware of his proceedings, and that lie had
made Ribbonmen by the hundred. He invented ,
sixty-three classes of pass-words, and dissemi-
nated large quantities of illegal papers. the mere
possession of which was a transportable offence.
Now they were to take every word this man had
sworn as true ; though it was difficult to do, yet as
it had the sanction of the Sury, they could not o other-
wise. In the next place the Government must also have
believed it, for they had transported the persons con-
victed on that evidence. All he required was, that the cor-
respondence between the Magistrates and this man, or the
Magistrates and the Government, should be produced.
He did not believe for one instant that the Noble Lord
had the least knowledge of any transactions of this de-
scriptiop. No man who sat on the other side of the
House could spurn with greater inflignatien such an
insinuation than he (Mr. (O'Connell) would. lie trusted
the Government would not attempt to screen the par-
ties implicated in these transactions. He moved
merely for the correspondence—he' cast no cen-
sure upon the Government by his motion.—(Hear.)
He entirely absolved the Noble Lord from all
knowledge of such a transaction. In the ease of Popay,
the then Government had not attempted to cast any
shield over him. Lord Althorp had at once granted a
Committee of Inquiry into his conduct, and had stated
it as his opinion that the employment of spies
to entrap persons into guilt was a most abominable sys-
tens. That abominable system had been denounced is
just and eloquent terms by the Counsel for the defence,
who, notwithstanding he was of Conservative politics,
yet did his duty nobly to his clients, and in such a
manner as reflected the highest honour on the Irish
bar. Lord Althorp had stigmatised the spy system as
abominable and atrocious. That was stronger language
than he (Mr. O'Connell) ever used. He knew the No-
ble Lord would not attempt to justify such conduct. He
trusted he would not withhold the documents. He (Mr.
(O'Connell) censured no one at present—he knew not
who was responsible for that conduct. These documents
would- inform him, and from them he should learn
against whom it would be his duty to move for a Com-
mittee of Inquiry in the course- of next session. The
Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman concluded by moving
for copies of correspondence between the Government,
Magistrates, and the police, relative to.the trial at the late
Armagh Assizes.
Lord ELIOT said, if anything could induce him to
accede to the motion of the Right Hon. and Learned
Gentleman, it would be the calm and temperate manner
in which he had introduced it. The Right Hon. and
Learned Gentleman had not endeavoured to cast any
censure upon the Government, and he did not, there-
fore, resist the motion on that ground ; but he thought
he would betray his duty, if he were, by assenting
to the production of these papers, to furnish what
he could not but consider a dangerous and incon-
venient precedent. He had had no opportunity of
seeing the correspondence, but he could well conceive
that it was of a confidential nature, and that the pro-
duction of it might tend to defeat the ends of justice,
either by putting on their guard persons who might be
implicated, or who might be objects of suspicion to the
local authorities, or, on the other hand, that it
might tend to fix imputations upon persons who
would subsequently be proved to be entirely inno-
cent of the charges brought against them.—(Hear,
hear.) The Noble Lord then went through the
circumstances of the case. Hagan had said that he ini-
tiated persons into Ribbonism, with the knowledge of
the police and the Magistrates. Upon that point he
(Lord Eliot) was not prepared to give au_opinion. He
had no hesitation in saying that the report of the trial,
referred to by the Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman,
was altogether inaccurate. He had searched the Dublin
newspapers of the day, and had found no mention what-
ever of the occurrences described in that paper. In this
opinion he was confirmed by the testimony of one who
was-in court during the whole of the trial, and who was
now at the head of the constabulary force of the county of
Suffolk. He was not at that moment able to say whether,
or to what extent, the local authorities were cognisant of
Hagan's proceedings, but he had no hesitation in saying
that, if they were cognisant of them, their conduct was
altogether unjustifiable. lie was satisfied that there was
nothing in the correspondence which reflects any blame
on the Government. He felt it his duty, however, and
it was a painful duty, because he could wish
that the , whole matter was investigated by
the House, but he felt it his duty, for the
reasons which he had stated, not to consent to
the production of these papers. He was certainly thank-
ul to the Right Hon. Gentleman for the, opportunity
which he had afforded him of disavowing on the part of
the' Government all participation in those proceedings.
Whatever advantage might be derived from ob-
taining information of the proceedings of secret
societies by the aid of spies and informers,
he thought the advantage would not compensate for the
injustice and injury which would be done by employing
paid agents to
.procure information. It was with con-
siderable reluctance that he felt it his duty to object to
the production of the correspondence.
Mr. HUME said he was glad to hear the disclaimer
of the Noble Lord on the part of the Government, of all
participation in these proceedings. He wished to know,
however, whether Hagan had received any pay from
the Government ?
Lord ELIOT said that Hagan, in his evidence, diS-
tinctly denied having received any reward. In such a
country as Ireland, where the great majority of crimes
arose out of secret societies, it was almost impossible to
obtain evidence without the aid of approvers, and
though no rewards should be given beforehand, he did
not think it was inconsistent with the character of the
Government to give to approrers sufficient for their
subsistence until their services were required.
Mr. FFOLLIOT defended the conduct of Mr.
Fawcett, the Provost of Sligo.
Mr. O'CONNELL said the Noble Lord greatly mis-
took his purpose, when he attributed to him a desire to
see may part of the correspondence which related to any
persons accused of crime. The correspondence which he
wanted was that which iii'otdd show who it was that em-

-57

fluenced; -
Mr. V. SMITH said that in giving his vote in favour
of this clause, he did not wish to be understood as in
any. way sanctioning the permanent abolition of the
Legislative Council. The Noble Lord had at his (Mr.
V. Smith's) desire introduced a clause malting this a
temporary measure ; it was, in 'fact, merely an experi-
ment, such as had been tried in New South Wales and
Australia. He did not participate in the Conset vative
fears of his Right Hon. and Learned Friend, that even
if they abolished the Legislative Assembly in Newfound-
land the same step would follow here, and that we
should proceed to do away with the House of Lords.—
(Hear, and laughter). lie certainly thought there was no
ground for any such Conservative apprehension. He
would, however, beg to suggest that; in this clause it
would be as well to preserve the number as it already
existed in the Legislative Council; so as to have in the
House of Assembly eight instead of ten. He wished to
ask the Noble Lord whether it was meant that those of
the Legislative Council who sat in the United Assembly
should be movable by the Governor f:om their seats in
the United Assembly ? lie wished to know whether
that was intended, as he thought the clause would have
that effect ? Guarding his vote by the assumption that
this was only a temporary measure, he should record it
in favour of the Noble Lord.
Mr. P. HOWARD opposed the principle of the Bill.
On the principle of the recommendation of Lord Ripon,
the reduction of the official men in the Assembly to three
or five, would give the Government all it could desire,
while so small a number could not control or overwhelm
the deliberations. This course would be better than
swamping the public voice by a side-wind, and reducing
the political privileges of the people to a mere nullity.
Mr. HUME said the inhabitants of Newfoundland
were unheard and unrepresented, and the House was
now about to deprive them of the greatest of privileges—
that of managigg their own affairs, a system of man-
agement under iich the colony had improved in every
respect. He did not agree with. theilast speaker, as they
had no right to make any modificatioit"irilite.sonstitu-
tion at all. If this disfranchisement were to fieltPplied
to any one English borough there was not a
Member who would not be ready to cry out on its
injustice. He was prepared to prove that all that had
been alleged against the constituencies were gross exag-
gerations. He read an extract from their petition, stet-
' ing that they believed, if the constitution was to be abo-
lished, it would be better that the affairs of the colony
should be entirely managed by a Committee
appointed by the Government. Let them not
think this oppression would be exercised with-
out the endeavours to regain their rights and
liberties. No abrogation of the constitution, whatever,
ought to be made, and therefore he should, with great
pleasure, support the amendment, and join his Hon.
Friend in his exertions to obstruct, by every possible
means, the progress of this Bill.
Mr. WYSE said if the proposition were carried, he
must continue to give the Bill his strenuous opposition.
They ought at least to declare boldly whether their con-
stitution was abolished or not ; not to do so was un-
worthy of the frankness and dignity of the House. He
104 aootinue to oppose the clause, as an insult and
ihhiri to the people. It was not right for the House to
1 p&lish firsts Meg t 43 Pleeide, and then to hear the parties
accused.
The Committee then divided, the numbers being—
For the clause .. 80
For the amendment lB
Majority for the clause --G2
On our return to the gallery we loaud.

ployed those persons. With respect to what the Noble
Lord had said as to the employment of approvers, he ad-
mitted that there was a distinction between an approver
and a spy. An approver was as different from a spy, as
an honest man was from an approver. He should feel it
his duty to divide the House.
Lord ELIOT said. that personally, or as connected
with the Government, he had no objection to the pro-
duction of the evidence ; but he could not produce it
in extenso.
Mr. O'CONNELL then asked if the Noble Lord
Would produce extracts ?,
LOrd ELIOT would not consent.
The Holise" then divided, when there appeared—
For the motion
Against it 72
Majority against the motion
Mr. O'CONNELL then gave notice that he would
move next session for a Committee to inquire into the
subjeet of the employment of Hagan and Cox.
comNITY COURTS BILL.

On the motion of Sir GRAHAM, this Bill went
through Committee pro fin-ma, fir the purpose of adding
new clauses, and having the Bill reprinted. -
Mr. AGLIONBY wished to know how it was possible
fully to consider a Bill like this, consisting of one hun-
dred clauses, at the present period of the session.
Sir J: GRAHAM said that the Bill was so modified
as Would; he hoped, remove the objection to it.
The House then resumed, the Report was brought up,
and the Bill was ordered to be recommitted to-morrow.
The House then adjourned at a Quarter to Four
o'Clock till Five o'Clock.

The House resumed at a quarter before Five o'Clock.
Shortly after that hour, Sir Augustus Clifford, the Usher
of the Black Rod, appeared at the table. and summoned
the House to the House of Lords, to hear the Royal
Assent given to several public and private Bills (for
which see our Lords'. report).
Sir THOS. FREMANTLI presented a petition from
Manchester in favour of the Exeter Hall Music Classes.
WINE TRADE.
Mr. D. BARCLAY presented a petition from the wine
merchants of Salisbury and Wilts, praying that the re-
duction in the duty upon wine might extend to their wine
stock. •
Sir 11. DOUGLAS presented a similar petition from
the wine traders of Liverpool.
Mr. PACKE presented a similar petition.
Mr. M. PHILIPS presented a petition from the
bankers, merchants, and manufaCturers of Manchester,
against a variety of clauses in the Bankruptcy Bill, more
especially the fiat in bankruptcy ; also a petition from
the Chamber. of Commerce of Manchester on the same
subject, objecting more particularly to the fiat in bank-
ruptcy, and the sth, 23d, 27th, 28th, 35th, 38th, and
45th clauses.
Mr. M. GIBSON presented a petition from Liverpool
praying for the imposition of a duty upon Guiana ni-
trate of soda..
Mr. C. VILLIERS presented a petition praying for
the adoption of free trade principles.
REFUSAL OF THE CHILTERN HUNDREDS.

ellurch property. Now, if the principle of that Com-
mission were carried out, they might next year have an
Act interfering with livings of 1,2001. or 2,0001.
What security had they that the holders of these
livings would not meet with the same.fate as the Bishops?
In the present state of the House, it would, he knew, be
useless to divide the House upon the clause. He thought
it involved most dangerous principles. The Bill, as in-
troduced by the late Government, .was bad enough, and
these gentlemen (pointing to Ministers) had made it

worse.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
every provision was introduced into the Bill that was
necessary to protect the property of the Church, and to
promote those interests for which it was originally given.
The Bill was then read a third time.
Sir J. GRAHAM then brought up the following
clause :—" And be it enacted, that it shall be lawful for
any Ecclesiastical Corporation, aggregate or sole, except
as aforesaid, from time to time, with the consent or con-
sents hereby required in the case of leases of land, to
grant or demise, by lease, for any term not exceeding
sixty years, to take effect in possession and not in re-
version, or by way of future interest, any mines, mine-
rals, quarries, or beds, belonging to such Corporation.
together with the
_right of working, or of opening and
working the same, arid together also with such portion
of land belonging to such Corporation, as shall be
deemed expedient ; and every such lease shall contain
such reservations by way of rent, royalty. or share of
the produce in kind, all or any thereof, or otherwise,
and such powers, provisoes. restrictions, and covenants,
as shall be approved by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners
for England, due regard being had to the custom of the
country or district within which such mines, minerals,
quarries, or beds are situate ; and no fine, premium, or'
foregift, nor any thing in the nature thereof, shall be
taken for or in respect of any such lease."
The clause was read a second and third time, and was
added to the Bill by way of rider.
Sir J. GRAHAM moved the following clause, to fol-
low clause 12 :—" Provided always, and be it enacted,
that in case of any lease of mines, minerals, quarries, or
beds, granted under this Act, such, portion of the im-
proved value accruing thereunder as by the like autho-
rity shall be determined on, not being more than three
fourth parts, nor less than one moiety, of such improved
value, shall forthwith and from time to time, as the same
shall accrue; be paid to the said Ecclesiastical Commis-
sioners for England, and shall be subject to the provi-
sions hereinbefore contained, relating to monies payable
to them in respect of any lease of land ; and the re-
mainder of such improved value shall be deemed to be
an improvement within the meaning of the provisions
relating to the incomes of Archbishops, Bishops, Deans,
and Canons, and Archdeacons, respectively."
Mr. AGLIONBY asked what would be the effect of
this provision ?
Sir J. GRAHAM explained the details of the clause.
Sir R. INGLIS said the proposition for which he had
been, and was now contending was, not that Parliament
had no right to deal with this property, because he be-
lieved that it had a full right to do so, but what he had
denied was, that Parliament had more right to deal with
this property than any other in the kingdom. He had
always contended that where ecclesiastical property was
increased, the spiritual wants of - the people living on
that property ought to be providendr out of the in-
creased value, but he objected to fixing a minimum income
for Bishops or any other ecclesiastical dignitaries, and
thought that they were as likely to expend that income
wisely and justly, which God's Providence, not Parlia-
ment, had given, as any other parties on which it could
be bestowed.
Mr. HAWES thought the Bill had bean greatly im-
proved by the clauses which the Right Hon. Baronet
had introduced ; but the Bill was important as recog-
nising the principle of appropriation.—(Cheers.) The
principle recognised by this Bawds- that Parliament had
a right to appropriate the surplus revenues of the digni-
taries cf the Church to other purposes, and to take those
revenues out of the control of those dignitaries. Parlia-
ment was now dealing with Church property as it ought
to deal with it. There were two principles, either of
which the Right Hon. Gentleman might have adopte:.l.
He might either have asserted the right of Parliament
to approprir to this Church property, or have left it to the
Church to appropriate its own property. The Govern-
ment had adopted the wiser course, and had asserted the
right of Parliament to deal with the property. That
principle had been before adopted with regard to Ire-
land. It had been propounded by the late Government. It
had been wisely adopted by the present Government. Yes
the Government had adopted the principle of appropriation
by the present Bill. They appropriated the surplus of
ecclesiastical property to a different purpose from that
to which it had been proposed to appropriate it by the,
late Government ; but, nevertheless, they did appro-
priate it to a different purpose from that for which it had
been originally intended, and this was a distinct acknow-
ledgment of the principle of appropriation.—(Cheers.)
If they were to take from the Duke of Northumberland
a portion of his income, and give it to a poor Peer,
would that not be appropriation ? Would it do to say,
Oh, we do not go out of the Peerage,, we, only take from
one Peer to give to another ? , He apprehended that,
nevertheless, the Duke of Northumberd would consi-
der that an appropriation. He was rejoiced to see the
Government recognising the principle of appropriation
by this Bill, and he regretted that they had not had the
courage to carry out the principle to its full extent.
The clause was then agreed to, and ordered to be added
to the Bill by way of rider.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM then-riipbsed a clause for
rendering leases void in certain cases, which was agreed to.
Several verbal amendments in the various clauses were
likewise agreed to.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM proposed a clause for the
purposes of rendering the revenues of Christ Church,
Oxford subject to the provisions of the Bill, if the Chapter
of Christ Church should avail themselves of its pro-
visions with regard to leasing.—Agreed to.
The. Bill, with the several additional clauses, was then
passed.

Lord PALMERSTON gave notice that he should on
Monday (as we understood) move for copies of any corres-
pondence which may have taken place between any Mem-
ber of this House applying for the Chiltern Hundreds and
the Chancellor of the ExChequer, in which the Right
Hon. Gentleman refused the application, and in which
the ground of that refusal was set forth.
APPROPRIATION OF SUPPLIES.
Mr. HUTT wished to know the meaning of the clause
of appropriation by which a sum of money voted for the
year 1841 had been appropriated to the service of the
year 1842.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER explained
to the Honourable Gentleman that the clause in question
was intended merely to enable the Government to defray
the expenses of the two years indiscriminately out of the
sums voted for either.
SLAVERY.IN INDIA.
Mr. VILLIERS wished to ask what steps had been
taken by the Government of India, to carry out the
resolution of the House, that the Governor-General and
Council of India should be required to take immediate
steps for mitigating the state of slavery in India, and
for extinguishing it altogether so soon as it might be
practicable ; and also what steps had been taken to do
away with slavery in the provinces of Singapore and
Penang.
Mr. BINGHAM BARING said that orders had been
sent out in November last to Singapore and Penang,
directing the Governors of those provinces to transmit
without delay a project of law for the immediate abolition
of slavery in those provinces. With respect to
India, the Governor-General at • ' the beginning of
the present year had transmitted drafts of pro-
jects of law fur the mitigation and gradual abolition
of slavery for the consideration of the Court of
Directors, and the Court of Directors and the Go-
vernment had signified their desire to accede to all the
propositions of the Governor-General on that subject.
The subject would be best understood from the papers
that would be presented to the House. In the first
place, they gave every security to individuals in en-
acting that no one should be dispossessed of his property
on the ground that his predecessors, having been slaves,
had no right to acquire it. They also prohibited the
selling of children into slavery in periods of scarcity.
The papers would be laid on the table of the House (we
understood) to-morrow (this day).
INCOME-TAX.
Mr. REDHEAD YORKE begged to ask the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer whether he was aware that
there was great irregularity. in the delivery of the In-
come-tax papers; and whether the no.ice of twenty-one
days for the return of those papers was to be calculated
from the day on which they are dated,'or from that on
which they are delivered ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
was sorry there had been considerable delay in deliver-
ing the Income-tax papers • this was not altogether at-
tributable to the Stamp-office, but arose from the Aet
having been passed so shortly before quarter- MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
day, that many gentlemen had not had the Messengers from the Leeds brought down certain Bills.
pleasure of filling up the papers ; but after today he COVENTRY BOUNDARY BILL.
believed that no person would have any reason to con- The order of the day for the House resolving itself into
plain on this ground.—(Hear, hear.) The Act required Committee on the Coventry Boundary Bill, having been
the papers to be filled up within twenty-one days after read, on the motion that the Speakerldo leave the Chair,
the time they were dated, but if it was shown that they Sir J. MORDAUNT said that the Magistrates of
were not delivered in proper time, the Government the county of Warwick were exceedingly desirous that
would have no objection to make' a proper allow- a short Bill should be introduced defining the boundaries
ance of time, and afford every facility. The Ho- of the borough of Warwick„ and that the other matters
nourable Gentleman had also asked if two papers to.which this Bill related should be left in statu quo until
were left, it was necesary to fill up both. If a gentle- next session. He had had an interview with the Right
man resided in two
places, the one being his place Hon. Baronet the Secretary for the Home Department,.
of business, and the other a country residence, in that on the subject, and that Right Hon. Gentleman had said
case it would be necessary to fill up
each paper, and he would withdraw the Bill if it were opposed by the
deliver them properly, as they would be different forms. Magistrates of the county of Warwick ; and that on
Bat if the same paper were left in two places, it would them would rest the responsibility of any inconveniences
only be necessary to fill up one, with an intimation that might occur in consequence. He would not oppose
written on the other that a due and proper return had the Bill under those circumstances, but he thought it
been made. was rather a strong measure to introduce such a Bill at
After a few words from Mr. AOLIONRY and Mr. the close of the session.
YORKE, the conversation dropped. After a few words from Sir J. GRAHAM,
AFFGHANISTAN WAR. The House went into Committee on the Bill.
Mr. D'ISRAELI asked the Right Hon. Gentleman, The Bill with amendments passed through Committee,
the First Lord of the Treasury whether the statement and was reported to the House.—Third reading on
was authentic that the Government of India had ordered Wednesday next.
the withdrawal from the troops of Affghanistan ? COURT OF CHANCERY ABOLITION OF
Sir R. PEEL said he understood despatches had just OFFICES BILL.
been received, but he had net yet had an opportunity of The ATTORNEY-GENERAL moved the third
reading them. He had received the letter stating that reading of this Bill ; and after a few words from Mr.
they had arrived since he came into the House. HIIME and Mr, HAWES, the Bill was read a third time
ECCLESIASTICAL CORPORATIONS LEASING and passed.
BILL. BANKRUPTCY LAW AMENDMENT BILL.
On the motion that the Order of the Day for the third On the motion for the re-committal of this Bill,
reading of the Ecclesiastical Corporations Leasing Bill Mr. M. PHILIPS said that he objected to the prin-
be read, ciple of the Bill, but more especially, to that part of it
Sir R. INGLIS said the complaint made against the which provided for the appointment of official assignees
late Government was, that they had proposed to convert in the country. Official assignee's had not been found
property purely ecclesiastical to purposes purely secular, altogether faultless in their connection with the Lon-
and he was afraid the present Bill had a similar tendency. don Bankruptcy Court, and he did think it would be
Sir J. GRAHAM said the Bill now introduced was very unadvisable to allow the estates of bankrupts in
substantially the same as one introduced by the Bishop the country to pass through their hands. These assig-
•of London in the House of Lords. nees were to be paid by a commission of 21 per cent.
Mr. V. SMITH supported the clauses proposed to be upon the money passing through their hands. He did
inserted by the Right Honourable Baronet. There was not think it fair to pay 21 per cent. to those assignees
no doubt that the revenues of the Church would be con- merely for paying away the money they had in their
siderably increased if these clauses were agreed to ; hands. He objected to the salaries io be paid to the
he hoped, in that event, that the agreement which ors- Commissioners, as being too large.' He thought that
ginally existed between the lessors and lessees, and which 1,8001. a year was much too large a suns for the duties
was a favourable agreement for the Church, would still those Commissioners had to discharge. Then the Bill
be maintained, proposed that ten Commissioners be appointed. That
Sir R. PEEL expressed his full assent to the principle was too small a number. He did not think that thirty
of the Bill. It had been brought in in strict conformity would be able to perform the du:ies they would be called
with the Report of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners. He on to discharge. In Manchester alone, from the Ist of
thought they were advancing the interests of the Church, January, 1841, to the Ist of January, 1842, there were
by giving to the high dignitaries a proper income, and 725 meetings of bankrupts. He entertained so strong
p,t, the same time keeping sufficient to pay the lower ones. an objection to the Bill, that he intended to move that
Mr. ACLAND regretted the manner in which the the Bill be read this day three months, that it might have
present Bill dealt with Church property. the full discussion such an important
.measure deserved.
Sir R. PEEL said that lie thought he had given suffi- He did not know that it would be competent to him to
sßobitgoedifrhieoettarhlle,
cient proof of his wish to see Episcopal Superintendence adopt such a coarse, but he wished to manifest the de-
increased in proportion as the population augmented, by tided objection he entertained to the Bill.
supporting the proposal of creating two new Bishoprics— The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that there was no
those of Ripon and Manchester. such thing as a payment of 2;1 per cent. to the assignees
lon. Baronet had out of the dividends. The matter was left in the hands
he agreed to the of the Commissioners. Under the existing system the
creation of two others. expenses, which amounted to about 30,0001., were paid
Lord PALMERSTON. said it appeared to him that out of the different estates, and would be saved by the
firstir.aAboCliLshAetNl it)wsoai(Bl that
tptihice
there could be but two sound opinions upon the present present Bill.
Hon. Baronet. the Mr. WILLIAMS said there was much good in the
with Church pro- also. Those who were most interested in the Bill were
Member for the University of Oxford, who contended present Bill, but there were some objectionable points
leiopinion of Hon. desirous of its being postponed. But 'if it, were perse-
Gentlemen on his (Lord 1 almerston s) side, who .main- vered with, he would not vote amtinst going on with it.
tamed that Parliament had a right to dispose, according Mr. FOSTER admittedthat
questionpe thatrt perry
haaeri inthel:nieytr
circumstances
ion') oisntiiaiong)nchetosf t;
the present law required
to its discretion, of any fresh accession to the property amendment, but he thought that, in justice to those who
of the Church. It seemed to the intermediate were most interested, it ought to be postponed.
position taken up by. the him that
Government, that Parliament Mr. BERNAL complained of the Bill coming before
had a right to deal with Church property in.one way y and the House from the House of Lords at so late a period.
not in another, was altogether untenable. Those who He would put it to the Right. Hon. Baronet whether
agreed with him (Lord Palmerston) were'of opinion that those who were interested in the Bill would be dealt
the improved value in Church property would be best fairly with if it was proceeded with at such a late period
appropriated to Church-rates. of the sessional year ? He agreed with what had fallen
Mr. DARBY contended that Church property ought from the Hon. Member for Manchester ; but hoping that
devoted to se • -
not on any account to be secular purposes. the Bill would not be persevered with, hp would not on-
Lord PALMERSTON explained. ter upon the subject.
Mr. HARDY thought the fund accumulated from any Sir J. GRAHAM was most anxious that the House
increased value that might be given to Church property should go into Committee on the Bill, as he thought it
ought to be devoted exclusively to spiritual purposes, and was for the advantage of the tradihg community of the
for that reason lie supported the Government measure. country that it should be passed during the pre
Of the plan of the Noble Lord, which was to devote the sent session.—(Hear, hear.) The Bill had come
surplus to the extinction of Church-rates, he certainly down to the House with •' the' highest authority
could not approve. The fund ought to be devoted ex- and sanction, namely that of the
.Lord Chancellor and
s. the Master of the Rolls ; and after the best considera-
elusively to spiritual purpose h t h
Mr. HENLEY said that w a ad fallen from her Ma- lion he had been able to give to the subject, he believed
'est ).'s Ministers had increased his objection to the Bill, if they went into Committee on that Bill, and paged only
It was avowed that the object of the Bill was to carry two or three of its provisions, the best results would be
out the recommendation of the Ecclesiastical Commis- elected ; he alluded particularly to the appointment
sion. Now that Commission had originated from a of fixed Commissioners responsible for the performance
slight pressure from without hi Ireland, not amounting to of their duty, and also to the nomination of official as-
what the Right lion. and Learned Member for Cork signees. They would effect a great 'good if they only
would call a heavy blow against Church-rates. The Go- I'assed the clause which gave to the creditor the Power
vernment of the day yielded to the pressure, and nine or of summoning his debtor, and asliing him whether or
ten Bishops were swallowed up to get rid of Church- not he acknowledged the debit,--Gear, hear,) maker
rates. At least, the revenues were swallowed up. lie most Important provision in the Dili was 11110 i the certi-
knew not what had become of the Bishops themselves, fleet° of the bankrupt was not to ha made subject to the
The Commission had then been appointed, and had dealt caprice of his creditors, but to be decided after jatliew
with what it had chosen to denominate the excess of consideration.—(Hear, hear.) He trusted, igAcicc, al;