The Sun.
London, England, 1842-06-08 00:00:00

tended to introduce into the Bill, he trusted that
the House would feel as indisnant with respect to
it as he did ; he alltn'ed to the case of apprentices
to colliers. That system i.vas carried e n in South De-
vonshire, Yorkshire, Lancashire, and the west of Scotland.
In those places many of the colliers tool; three or four boys
from the parish, and they supported themse!ves and their fa-
milies by their labour, doing no stork themselves. These
lads were of,en doomed to 12 or 14 years of such slavery. and

•
the treatment they received was awful to contemplate. . Nov,
was such a system necessary ? What was , here to learn that
required so long an appienticeshiP? Absolutely nothing but
what might be learnt in 10 or 12 days. Then, again, look at
the treatment they received. The men would send these boys
where they would not go themselves ; the consequence was that
many had their limbs broken, and others lost their lives. One
lad was brought before a surgeon to be examined ; he had
from 24 to 26 wounds; his back and loins were beaten to jelly;
his arm was broken below the elbow, and seemed to have been so
for some time. When brought before a Nlagistrate he was unable
to sit or stand. His arm had never been set, and he was obliged
to work for several weeks in that state. • It was admitted by the
lad's master that he was in the habit of beating the boy with a
fiat piece of wood, having a nail driven into it. and which pro-
jected abaut half an inch. This it was which prod teed the
wounds mentioned. But was that enough? No. The
boy had . been starved for want. of food. He was
then sent. home in a cart with his mother, a poor widow
living at Rochdale. Well might the people of Staffordshire
say that slavery was preferable to this—( Hear, hear)— for
the negroes at leaA worked in open day, and had some one to
whom they could communicate their sufferings. Now he asked
whether it was right that any man, or body of men, or legis-
lature, should inflict such evils as tkese? These people had corn-
: milted no crime whatever, or if they had he hardly knew of any
crime that ought to be so punished.—( Cheers.) He had been
over tha, new prison at Pentonville that day, arid what. did he
see there ? He never saw such preparations as were made for
those who were doomed to imprisonment—such care of the
apartments—the ventilation looked to and every care taken for
those who had broken the laws of the land. Yet these poor
children, whose only crime was poverty, were sent to work in
these mines—( Hear, hear)—there to be subjected to an in-
fallible course of igeorarice and vice—for igoorant they must
be, as they were not allowed one hour for improvement. If
the House was anxious to continue the New Poor-law—whetl e
it was unwise or not he would not say—surely it was wise to •
give some relaxation to those who were employed in the •
mariner he had described. He should therefore propose not
only that apprenticeships should be abolished, but that every
indenture in existence should he cancelled—(Loud cheers)—
and let the oppressed go free.—( Loud cheers.) He would not
long detain the House ; he felt he had already trespassed too
long—(Cheers)—but the House knew hoc, be.had laboured
in this cause.—(Continued cheering ) He would not
say how needless and erroneous it was to employ women in
this unseemly manner. But the occupation itself might still
be rendered more happy and comfortable. The course he had
pursued was part of a plan conceived some time since for the
amelioration of the working classes. There were other re-
ports that would succeed, that would exhibit deeper and more
appalliog views of this system. He had endeavoured on be-
half of the children to avert the mischief that was attendant
upon it. He had no intention to interfere between master and
man. It was easy to ascertain territorial statistics, but it was
extremely difficult to obtain the moral statistics of the people.
Ile had a rep, rt of the police in Manchester made up to the
end of the year 1641, and drawn up at great length, by which
they could judge of the children of the working population.
( The Noble Lord then readthe statement.) In the year ending
September, 1640, there were confined in the county gaol of
Durham 140 prisoners, of whom 60 were imprisoned for
breaking some small item of the law. riut he thought
it was impossible to . infer from this what was the state
of the collieries in that district. That would be much better
learnt from the casual evidence of the mistress of an infant
school, who stated that oaths were exceedingly common in the
mouths of girls of five and six years old, and that if she pre-
sumed to scold them they called her the mo,t opprobrious
names, and that their parents frequently abused her for punish-
ing them. lie had been too long conversant with the working
classes of this country to apprehend any violence from them as
a body ; but if such an evil were allowed to remain unchecked,
the day might arrive when there would be some special neces-
sity for the exercise of national virtue, and it would then be
found that the strength of the empire was frustrated because
that fatal disorder would then have reached its height. He be-
lieved that the people of this country were the most easily go-
verned of any nation on the face of the earth. If the Minister
of the country would only win their eonfidence by appealing to
their hearts, he would have no difficulty in ruling them. That
he thought was abundantly shown by the patient conduct they
manifested under their present distress.—( Hear.) His object
was to enable the poor colliers to avail themselves of opportu•
riffles of virtue and morality. It was barbarism such as he had
detailed that he wished to reclaim.. He would conclude in the
words of Holy Writ—" Let us break off our sins by righteous-
ness, and our iniquities by showing mercy to the poor, that it
may be a lightening for our tranquillity."
Mr. F. MAULE seconded the motion. The benevolence of
the Noble Lord was highly, commendable, and he trusted that,
with the aid of the House, the measure would prosper in
his hands.

The SPEAKER having put the question,
Mr. LANIBTON could not but express his gratitude to the
Noble Lord, for proposing legislation on this subject. It was
one of the many proofs which the Noble Lora had given of his
anxiety to benefit the poor. He believed, in the counties of
Northumberland and Durham, the ages were nine and ten
when they commenced work, and the exception was seven or
eight. The whole root of the evil was to be found in the cu-
pidity of the parent, and his blind ignorance. That was an
important truth, and he found a remarkable illustration of it in
the county he had the honour to represent. In the Lambton
collieries there were three large schools, where an able master
was employed, and one of which he looked over himself. But
what could be done, when the parent took away the child at a
very early age ? If they passed a law to prevent children from
working so young, they would do much to benefit the colliery
population of the country. Education was the grand means by
which they could reach the root Of the present system,
but they must take care how they legislated on such a subject.
Large bc:ties of men would be affected by their legislation, and
they ought therefore to proceed cautiously and prudently.
There was some slight exaggeration with regard to the species
of work with which dill:ken commenced in the collieries of
Durham end Northumberland. The nature of the work they
commenced with was of a very easy character; and the Noble
Lord slightly exaggerated in the statement be made with regard
to those collieries. There had been an exaggeration with re-
spect to the effects on the health of the pitmen, and the bring-
ing on of premature old age; and, as a proof of that, he had
a statement from Mr. Hardcastle, wha said that he considered
the pitmen to be a healthy race; and with respect to prem•
tore old age taking place at forty, he had the statement of the
head agent of a large proprietor of mines, )who said that they
had several men in their mines who ranged from sixty to
seventy years of age. Thanking the House for the patience
with which they had heard him, he would conclude by hoping
that her Majesty's Government would take care, in this Bill,
in limiting the age, that, while they attended to the feelings of
humanity, they would also bear in mind that they were dealing
with immense interests ; and, with respect to the labourer, he
hoped they would recollect that his labour was his own pro-
perty, and that they ought to be careful how they interfered
with it.

Lord F. EGERTON would be sorry to say any thing that
would lengthen the present debate, but he could not refrain
from returning his best thanks to his Noble Friend for the
measure he had introduced, as he felt convinced that it would
tend to improve the moral, social, and religious condition of the
labourers to whom it applied. He considered the assistance of
the Legislature in such a matter most valuable and essential.
The two must important parts of the Noble Lord's Bill were
the age of the children employed, and the employment of
females. In a moral point of view, he considered it a most
unfit thing fer females to work in mines. His Noble Friend
did well to call for the interference of the Legislature; and on
behalf of those interested in the question, he returned his
Noble Friend his most grateful thanks._(Cheers.) There
was one point, however, on which he did not quite agree with
his Noble Friend, and that was, as to the age at which children
should be permitted to go into the mines. A benevolent
clergyman, with whom he (Lord F. Egerton) had been in the
habit of consulting on this subject, had given it as his opinion
that the peculiar bend in the bank and hands which was neces.
sary for the miners to carry on the labour of the pit, could not
be acquired if the initiative of it had been delayed beyond 12
years of age. There was but one year difference between
them, and that question might be easily arranged hereafter.
Mr. HUME had seldom listened to a statement which had
afforded him at the same greater pain and greater satisfaction.
—( Hear, hear.) The House, as far as he could p,rceive, was
unanimous in the desire to co-operate with the Noble Lord to
carry out his benevolent designs. It was painful to reflect
that these things should not have been brought to light until
now ; that while thousands, and tens of thousands, were ex-
pended in alleviating digress abroad, there should be so much
distress at home, uneeded and uncared, for. There must be
something wrong in the nature of our Government, which could
have permitted such scenes to go on so long. It was a great
reflection on those who received yearly such large sums of
money for superintending the moral and religious instruction
of the people. He did not think the Nsble Lord had at all
been guilty of exaggeration; on the contrary, the Noble Lord
had selected his cases with great judgment and discrimination.
He hoped the Government would give its best assistance to the
Noble Lord, in order to enable him to accomplish his benevo-
lent object. He approved of the proposal of the Noble Lord,
which was entirely free from the objections which he (Mr.
Hume) had felt to certain other proposals of the Noble Lord.
This was no interference between the matter and the work-
man. He did notgathe- from what had fallen from the Noble
Lord, that it was any part of his plan to compel the adopting a
system of education. He thought that such ought to lorm a
psrtinn of the plan. It was as much a duty of the Govern-
ment to provide for the education of the people as for their
physical wants. Such an important point ought not to be left
to the casual and chance attention of individuals. No foreigner •
would believe that such scenes could exist in a civilized
country. The Noble Lord was entitled to great credit for the
manner in which he had brought forward the subject, and he
(Mr. Hume would be happy to afford him every assistance in
his power.
Sir J. GRAHAM was delighted but not surprised at the
expression of feeling with which the statement of his Noble
Friend had been received by the House. Those feelings must
be cold, ;tad that reason perverted, which were not touched
by the force of the argument, the singleness of purpose, the
powerful views, and above all by the tenderness of nature,
exhibited in the speech of his Noble Friend.—(Cheers.) He
had never listened to any statement in that House which had
been brought forward in a clearer manners—( Cheers.) It
had perfectly satisfied him of that which he had known before,
but which he had never before felt so forcibly, the amiable
character of his Noble Friend. He was sure that the Noble
Lord would feel the general assent of the House to be a re-
ward for the many sacrifices which. lie !sad made. He was
sure that with respect to the objects of his Noble Friend there
could be no difference of opinion.—( Hear.) He thought it
indispensably necessary that the practice which prevailed
in Cornwell of altogether excluding females from working in
mines should be carried into general effect. It was degrading to
the character of the country, and derogatory to the manly
feeling of the pele, that females should be employed in work
of this kind.—(Cheers.) Upon this all were agreed. He
congratulated his Noble Friend, and he congratulated the
House and the country, that on such a point there was no differ-
ence of oeinion.—(Cheers.) The next provision of the
Noble Lord's Bill referred to the employment of boys. In
Cornwall, the rule was not to employ boys meter twelve years
of age. His Noble Friend propsed that they should not be
employed under thirteen years of age. That was a disputed
point, and although he (Sir J. Graham) thought that great
care ought to be taken not to interfere with the parental con-
trol of children, still he agreed with his Noble Friend, that
there ought to be limits to the years of age at which children
should be employed in particular kinds of work, and he gave
his cordial assent to the principle of the measure in this
respect.—( Hear, hear.) As to the third provision, the super-
intendence of the machinery, he also concurred entirely with
his Noble Friend. He agreed with him also in the fourth
ensetment as to the employment of pauper apprentices, and in
a B;Il which he had had the honour to lay before the House he
had introduced a provision to restrict Unions from binding ,1
children to mining trades.—(Hear, hear.) The Reports of '
the Commissioners had shown that it )vas necessary to put E.,
Jimit to the period of apprenticeships, and, In his (Sir James
Graham's) opinion, it was necessary to put. a 14114 to the exist-
ing apprenticeships.—slHear.) He was suite sure that' tVe
general approbation o all around him, and of the country at
large, would reward his Noble Friend for h's exertions.—
( Hear, hear.) The measure could not be in better hands,
And it should have his cordial support.—( Hear, hear. )

• •~'R~4Myi ,•,,

Mr. TURNER ap; roved of the proposed measure, but denied
that in Cornwall boys of a tender age were employed in degrad-
ing and slavish work.
Mr. ST( it lIT WORTLEY cordially assented to the pro-
position of his Noble Friend, and promised him his steady co-
operation.
Mr. WARD congratulated the Noble Lord upon having
done the must useful thing that had been effected in the pre-
sent session.--( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord had accom-
plished what he bait been striving for, thsough 28 yea, s, and
had released his countrymen from werae than Egyptian
bondage—( Hear, hear)—and he assured the Noble Lord that
he had not in the House one more cordially disposed to co-
operate with him than he was.
Mr. BELL concurred in all the eulogy that had been passed
upon the Noble Lord, and could bear testimony to the truth
of the statement, that in Cumberland and Durham females
were not employed in the mines.
Mr. BROTHEItTON thought that the country owed a
great debt of gratitude to the Noble Lord for having, in the
first place. obtained an inquiry into the practices of the coal
miners, and then proposing a measure that would put an end
to those evils.—( Hear. ) It was astonishing that they should
have been allowed to exi-t in this country.—( Heir, hear. )
Seeing that great cruelties had been practised, it was desir-
able that they should be put an end to. What had been said
of Durham and Northumberland had convinced him that it was
quite unnecessary to employ ferrules in mines. Considering
the wealth the mines yielded to the owners, he thought they
ought to pay more attention to the education of the persons
they employed. He had heard that in Lancashire not fewer
than 3,000 females were employed, and that there was a very
low standard of morality amongst them. This sort of work was
unsuited to the female character ; it unsuited them for domestic
duties, and had a demoraizing effect on them and on their chil-
dren. Ile should, therefore, give his hearty assent to the mo•
tion of the Noble Lord to bring in this Bill.
Mr. PA KINGTON could not allow that discussion to
close without addressing a few words to the House upon the
most interesting subject then under abscission. He did not
mean to detain the House by making any allusions to those
details which the able speech of his Noble Friend the Member
for Dorsetshire had so faithfully described. Ile felt it neces-
sary to anvert to those details, because he was delighted to find
the impression made on the House, and the unanimous feeling
which those detaiis had occasioned in that House, that it was
absolutely neeessary that some legislative measure should be
taken try put an end to the evils described by the Noble Lord.
His (Ms. Pakingt n's) object in rising was to express the
warmth of his feelings, and the deep admiration of the course
his Noble Friend had taken on this subject. He (Mr.
Pakington) had no hesitation in saying that the
whole course taken on this subject was one which did the
Noble Lord infinite honour, as a friend to suffering
humanity, and a benefactor to these suff firing people. He
thought the House would feel that the Noble Lord had secured
to himself a name and reputation more powerful than rank and
wealth could give.—(Cheers.) He (Mr. Pakington) had also
heard with great pleasure and satisfaction the speech of the
Right Hon. Gentleman, the Secretary for the Home Depart-
ment. He must say that after the satisfaction he felt at the
Noble Lord the. Member for Dorset, he did not know any thing
that bad given him more satisfaction, and the House and the
country must be grateful to the Right Hon. Gentleman and her
Majesty's Government in giving this measure their support;
and he did hope, under these circumstances, even at that late
period of the Session, and with still important business before
the House, that the Noble Lord would be enabled to carry this
measure during the present session.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. GIBSON rose for the purpose of correcting a misappre-
hension that might arise from a statement in the speech of the
Noble Lord, of some statistics relating to prostitution in the
manufacturing districts. He thought the account was exagge-
rated, for, he believed, that they would find as much demorali-
sation in this town as io the manufacturing districts. Much of
the demoralised state of the manufacturing districts arose from
the depressed state of trade.
Mr. PROTHEROE begged to assure the Noble Lord that
his efforts were watched with great anxiety by the district
which he represented. He would take that opportunity of ex-
pressing his gratitude to the Noble Lord for having sent a Com-
mission to inquire into the part with which he was connected.
The people in the Forest of Dean had reason to bless the Noble
Lord for his exertions.

Lord ASHLEY said it was almost unnecessary for him to
reply to what had been said. He. must express the sincere
gratitude he felt to the House for having so taken up the ques-
tion. He felt that the House would obtain great honour with
the country, as they had no sooner discovered the enormous
evils which existed than they attempted to remove them.:
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
_
WITNESSES INDEMNITY BILL.
_ _

Mr. ROEBUCK wished to ask a question of the Government
with respect to a Bill he had introduced. The writ for Notting-
ham had been suspended until this Bill was passed, and he only
wanted to know alien the further discussion upon this Bill
would be taken. He had been in that House night after night
till a late hour, expecting this Bill to come on.
Lord STANLEY, who spoke with his back to the gallery,
and in so low a tone of voice as to be scarcely audible, said that
the subject was one of great importance ; although his Right
Hon. Friend, the First Lord of the Treasury, was unavoidably
absent, he thought he \ might undertake to say, on. the part of
his Right Hon. Friend, that they would go on with the discus.
lion at five o'clock on Friday (as we understood).
Mr. ATT WOOD wished to know if the duty on timber
would be reduced, imported into the Isle of Man?
Mr. GLADS'I'ONE said this was a question which did not
come under the consideration of the tariff; but no change was
contemplated with respect. to the Isle of Man—that would be a
separate considerati-n.
THE TARIFF.

The House then resolved itself into Committee on the Cos
toms Act. _ .

On the clause regulating the duty on boots and shoes being
proposed,
.Mr. PALMER said that as he had presented many
petitions on this subject he wished to say a few worth.
He believed that every person engaged in the manufacture of
boots and shoes was in very indigent circumstances, and if Hon.
Gentlemen in that House would be as energetic in upholding
the cause of their poorer brethren as they were in protecting
their own interest, he believed that he should in this case have
as good a majority against her Majesty's Government as there
was the other nigat against the motion of the Right lion.
Member fur Bath. lie must say that he did not think her
Majesty's Government had done enough for the people, not-
withstaneing what the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the
Ministry had said about his desire to give employment to the
poorer clases.--( Hear, hear. ) He was afraid the Right lion.
Gentleman the Vic-President of the Board of Trade would
not assist him. Might he hope that anything would be done
towards giving increased protection to the manufacturers of
boots and shoes by Hon. Members in that House ? He begged
to move that the duty on•laches• boots and shoes, which was
formerly 1/. 10s. per dozen, now 125., should be increased
to 1/.

Mr. WARD would support the tariff in this point, because
he believed it would extend trade and open new channels for
commerce.

Mr. LAWSON said that there were upwards of 30,000
working shoemakers in London alone; and if foreign boots
and shoes were to be admitted at a reduced rate of duty, those
men would be thrown out of employment; and he should likes
to know what advantage would arise to the public wlf.eh
might compensate those men for the loss they sustained? He
thought the case of the working shoemakers deserved the atten-
tion of the House, and he hoped this part of the tariff would
be reconsidered.

Mr. B. WOOD believed that there were but few parties in
this country who were so poorly off as the makers of boots and
shoes. He did not mean the shopkeeper, but the actual
manufacturer.—( Hear, hear.) The tax about to be imposed
was Is. per pair, instead of 2s. thlt' Now he believed that the
whole of that difference would be taken from the pocket of
the labouring man ; and he must say that he thought the
Right Hon. Gentleman had dealt more hardly with this class
of 'nun than with any other. He could assure the Right Hon.
Gentleman that there was no class of persons in greater distre.s
than they weze ; and he did hope the Right Hon. Gent. would
consider the proposition of the Hon. Member for Essex.
Mr. GLADSTONE thought that no grounds had been
made out to sanction any departure from the proposed altera-
tion of the duty on this article. It should be remembered that
we were at present great exporters of boots and shoots, we
could already make them at as cheap a rate as any ether
country in the world, and by lowering the duty upon the ma-
nufactured article, he conceived that he was conferring a great
boon upon the trade, inasmuch as greater facilities would be
afforded to exportation.

Mr. COB EN thought the House should have commenced
the application of the pr;nciples of free trade with the great
article of corn.

Mr. S. WORTLEY said that the protection to home-
grown corn had been diminished, as well as the protection to
other articles.

Mr. COBDEN said that the Right Hon. Baronet at the head
of the Government admitted that corn and sugar were two
articles practically excluded from the operation of the prin-
ciples of free trade.
Mr. WILLIAMS was decidedly of opinion that the House
should have begun by diminishing the duties upon corn and
sugar. .

laptain PECHELL supported the amendment.
Mr. B. WOOD complained that many of the reductions in
the tariff would fall with peculiar severity upon the poor
labourer.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that he
believed the proposed alteration would be favourable to the
tradesman in this country. The present duty upon foreign
boots and leather was so high, that it was evaded to a great
extent and became practically inoperative. He deprecated the
discussion of other articles than the one under discussion. •
Air. COBDEN said that it was not the fault of free traders
on this side of the House that the Government had commenced
by making an exception with regard to corn, but as long as they
did make these exceptions with regard to different articles they
must expect to hear of them ; and, as far as corn was concerned,
he hoped the Ministry would continue to hear of it till the mo• '
mcnt of their political death.—( Hear, hear. )
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
when be was addressing the Committee he merely confined
himself to the question before it.—( Hear, hear. )
The Committee then divided, and the numbers were—
For Mr. Palmer's amendment
Against 14 l4d .
Majority against the amendment —ll2
The item was then agreed to, as were the remaining items of
the tariff, as far as the articles, of cotton mannfacture. On this
item,

,
Mr. MILNEIt GIIZSON wished to know on what principle
the Goverment proposed to levy a duty of 10 per cent., on ar-
ticles of cotton manufacture ? The cotton manufacturers did not
ask for protection, but only to be allowed to exchange their
produce freely with the corn and other commodities of other
countries.

Mr. GLADSTONE said he had never supposed that the
cotton manufacture had been raised to its present state by
means of protection. It was similar to the case of the iron
trade. The iron trade had no more been raised to its present
state by prOtective duties than the cotton trade ; but there were
certain branches of the iron trade to which a moderate protec-
tive duty was of some importance. There was no trade which
had less reason to fear foreign competition than the cotton
trade; yet there were certain cases in which protection was
thought necessary as a security against the effects of foreign
competition, and he hoped the Committee would not refuse
that protection in this case, in order to prevent certain agri-
cultural gentlemen from using it as an argument against re-
pealing the. Corn-laws.

• Dr.-130 WRING supported the Government proposition.
Mr. M. GIBSON said he hoped if they retained the duty
on cotton, it would not be made a pretext for retaining the du-
ties on agricultural produce.
Mr. COBDEN said that the whole question was whether the
cotton manufacturers were or were not benefited by this nomi-
nal protection. If it could be shown that they had no protec-
tion, he trusted that Hon. Members opposite would be willing
to withdraw their claim to protection for articles of agricultural
produce.--( Hear, hear.) He contended that the cotton ma-
nufacturers had, in fact, no protection whatever ; on the con-
trary, that they were placed under the greatest disadvantages in
competing with the foreign manufacturers.
Lord SAN DON said he could not admit that the state-
ment of the Hon. Member was correct; if all cottons were of the
same quality, it would be perfectly true.
Dr. BO RING said that at the first meeting of the Anti-
Corn-law delegates a resolution had been passed to the pfrgEt
that, while they reguired free trade in corn and provisions. they
up proteCtio4 §yei'y'arti4 coiiiained
T.t7NiVYO: OD, in s4PPOrt of the government .pro-
position,ineiltrheire.l‘allrliql.finu;ted the words of Mr. Hoskisson, who in l tip goo
that the then dutit • on manufactured cotton imported were a