The Sun.
London, England, 1842-05-21 00:00:00

rnr: SUN. LONDON, SATURDAY MORNING, MAY 21, 1849.

stop? The question had been over and over again brought under
the eonsitterat ion of theltighest military men in- the I uri, and they
declined deviating from the orders. With regard to the amuse-
ment of soldiers., alluded to by his Noble and Gallant Friend,
the fault did not lie with the Ordnance Department.
Sir C. NAPIER said, he could not allow that opportunity to
pass without again raising his voice against the construction of
tho Board of Ordnance. It was generally admitted, and it was
perfectly impossible to deny that the Ordnance Department
could be properly conducted, unless there was a naval officer on
the Board. It was impossible that the Admiralty could cor-
respond, and carry on their business with the Board of Ord•
nonce, whilst they knew nothing at all about the naval service
of the country. He would not trouble the House with any
further remarks at present, but he hoped the Right Hon.
Baronet, (Sir R. Peel) would take the matter into his serious
consideration.
Major VIVIAN said he perfectly agreed in what had fallen
' from his Hon. and Gallant Friend, and he hoped the defect
would be supplied.
The sum of 121,8271. was then voted to defray the expense
of the establishments of the Office of Ordnance.
The sum of 109,2071. was voted for defraying the expense
of the sappers and miners.
The sum of 349,1551. was voted for defraying the expense
of the Royal Regiment of Artillery, the Royal Horse Artillery,
the Royal Riding House Establishment, and the Medical Es-
tablishment, for the year 1842 and 1843.
The sum of 34,30 i/. was then voted for defraying the ex-
penses of salaries of barrackmasters.
On the motion that 533,1771. be granted for defraying the
works and repairs of ordnance,
Major VIVIAN said that he had expected this vote would
be postponed on account of the absence of a Noble Lord con-
nected with the Government, from whom he understood he was
to receive explanations as to a question which he put on a for-
, mer occasion. _ .

at the time& the apointrnent , and the names of the noblemen
and gentlemen who recommenced them. —( Laughter.) As hi
was on his legs, he hoped the Committee would excuse him in
attempting to do justice to the metitg of a very g eat man.
When he ( Sir C. Napier) brought forward his motion tor a
naval man to be placed at the head of the Admiralty, the t ight.
Hen. Baronet read a speech of - Mr. Pitt's, condemnatory of
Lord St. Vincent as First Lord of the Admiralty. • Now, whe-
ther this was true or not, It was no argument against his (Sir
C. Napier's) motion. He might as well put the case of Lord
Chatham, who was put in and turned out by his brother, Mr.
Pitt. But he (Sir C. Napier) thought that when the Right
• Hon. Baronet read the speech of Mr. Pitt, in justice to that
great man (Lord St. Vincent) he ought to have gone farther.
Mr. Tierney, in speaking on the same subject, expressed his
surprise that the Right Hon. Gentleman ('lr. Pitt) should
have so changed in his sentiments respecting Lord St. Vincent.
The Right Hon. Baronet found fault with him (Sir C. Napier)
for recommending a naval officer, and said that it would in-
terfere with the prerogative of the Crown ; but he (Sir
Charles Napier) only followed the example of the
Right Honourable Paronet, when he brought forward
a motion to displace the whole of a Ministry.---( Cheers and
laughter.) He ( Sir C. Napier) must again express his opi-
nion that a naval man ought to be at the head of the Ad-
miralty, and he did hope the Right Hon. Baronet would, when
he had an opportunity, do justice to the naval service by ap-
pointing a naval officer to that office. He (Sir C. Napier)
spoke for the good of the service and the country. Pad such
been the case before, the late disasters that have befallen India
would not have taken place ; and he hoped the Right Hen.
Baronet in future appointments would not listen to the recom-
mendations or to the claims of friends, but appoint a man fit to
occupy the situation.
The vote was then agreed to.
25,3751. was voted for defraying the expences of medical
services.
44,3251. for divers miscellaneous services for the year.
49,757/. was voted for military pensions.
187,000/. wads also voted for civil pensions.
226,100/. for freight and ships for the transportation of
stores.
95.7941. was voted for defraying the expenses of conveying
convicts
470,54t90L New
was
voted South
fo Wales.
r der
ra y
ing the charges of the packet-
service in conveying the mails.
The CHAIKMAN then reported progress, and the Report.
was ordered to be received on Monday next, and the House
resumed.

Sir ROBERT PEEL suggested that the objections of the
Hon. and Gallant Gentleman could be taken on bringing up
the Report.
Major VIVIAN was understood to assent, and the vote was
agreed to.
On the vote of 208,7431. being proposed for defraying the
expenses of the Ordnance Naval and Military service by a
Treasury minute,
Captain PECHELL said that he did not intend to throw
any delay in the way of the present vote, but he thought that
in consequence of what had been said against the late Govern-
ment, and particularly against Lord Melbourne, who had been
accused of high treason for not taking steps with respect to the
invention of Mr. Warren, which it was said would be able to
blow up Acre and the rock of Gibraltar, end in consequence of
which it was said that he had been invited to St. Petersburgh and
the United States, it was right they should know the intentions
of the present Government respecting it. It was said that some
experiments had been made, and that the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman opposite was himself present at these experiments, with
some others on his side of the House, and that a boat had been
blown into the air in their presence. What he wished to
know was, how the subject stood with respect to Mr. Warren,
and whether the present Government had taken up the subject,
which it was supposed the late Government ought to
have done, and whether any communication would be
laid on the table relating to it. He thought the allusion
of the Honourable and Gallant Officer to the Spanish
question very ill timed. That question had been dis-
cussed over anti over again, and the conduct of the Noble Lord
would be recot ded by the future historian with high praise. It
was the Noble Lord who hail first. been enabled t, apply steam
to wat like purposes, by interfering in behalf of the Queen of
Spain, and that intervention had enabled him to secure from
ipain a treaty for the suppression of the slave-trade. He
thought that next year the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman would
see the propriety of abstaining from such taunts, if he wished to
get his estimates passed quickly. In the discussion of the Navy
Estimates, Hon. Gentlemen on his ( Captain Pecheil's) side of
the House had abstained from taunting the other side with their
chirps against the late Government of neglect of duty in not
providing a sufficiet.t def,nce for the coasts, and with their
prophecies of a Russian fleet enteringthe Medway and burning
Sheeri.ess. Hon. Gentlemen, since they had come into office,
had, no doubt, seen the folly of those taunts.
Sir R. PEEL, in reply to the questions of the Hon. and
Gallant Gentleman, relative to Captain Warner's invention,
could only repeat what he had stated in. the early part of the
evening. He had witnessed an experiment on a small scale,
I which, as far as it went, was perfectly successful. He had never
charged the late Government with having neglected Captain
Warner's claims, on the contrary, he thought they had adopted
a proper course.—( Hear, hear.) He himself had adopted a
course of conduct precisely similar. He had stated that there
were two responsible public bodies, the Admiralty and the Ord-
nance, to which :all those questions were referred, and he had
not seen any reason to take the decision out of their hands ; but
he had at the same time said that he would speak to the Master-
General of the Ordnance, and request him to select two distin-
guished officers—one in the military and the other in the naval
service—who could test the efficiency of the experiment upon a
great scale, and he had also conveyed to Mr. Warner an inti •
illation that the experiment should be performed at the public
expense. Mr. Warner had, however, attached certain condi-
tions to which the Government did not feel disposed to accede,
and the experiments had consequently not taken place. He had
no objection that the experiment should be made at the public
expense, but he could not accede to any conditions as to com-
pensation.
Capt. BOLDERO said he wished to make one observation
with respect to what had fallen from the Noble Lord (Lord
Palmerston). He could assure the Noble Lord that in making
the statement he did relative to the quantity of arms sent abroad
he meant no offence whatever to the Noble Lord.

Lord PALMERSTON said it was a most economical pro-
ceeding to send the arms abroad.—(Laughter.)
After a few words from Sir DENHAM NORREYS,

Captain BOLDER() said it was not the intention of the
Nlaster- General of the Oidnance to discontinue the survey of
Ireland. .

Lord INGESTRIE wished to say a few words in explana-
tion, as his name had been mentioned in connection with Capt.
Warner's inventions. However he might be ridiculed for cre-
dnlity, he was still of opinion that they were inventions of very
great importance. With that conviction he had applied to Lord
Melbourne's Government, but without getting any satisfac-
tory answer. He had since applied to the Right Honourable
Baronet at the head of the present Government, who referred
the matter to the heads of the departments. He understood'
that a_ very proper course was adopted, and that a commission
composed of two officers of standing and character had been
appointed.
All that Mr. Warner wished to have, befoie et-
periments were made, was that ill case he succeeded ,in
producing the almost improbable results which he had pro-
mised..he should have a.guarantee from the Government, or
that House that his invention should not be thrown aside. He
(Lord Ingestrie) had not expected that circumstance
would .be alluiled to, or he would, have inade himself; better
informed 'on the subject ; but he was satisfied that the disco.
very would prove ox immediate and vital importance to the
country.
Major VIVIAN said, that in reproving the course taken by
the late Government, the Gallant Officer had also reproved
that which had been taken by the present, for the course pur-
sued was the same in each case.—( Hear, hear.) When his
Noble Friend was applied to by Mr. Warner, he had offered to
refer the matter °to three scient,fic officers. The inventor
doubted, indeed, whether that would be safe for his own in-
terest ; but surely he might have thrown himself upon the
generosity of his countrymen.—( Hear, hear.) In consequence
of his refusing to submit to this test, the Government declined
further corresrn lence on the subject.
Lord INGESTRIE said, Mr. Warner had very justly feared
that, if the Board should learn a part of his secret, it would be
a very good indication of what was to follow. Was it not
possible, that there might not be an invention superior to
gunpowder ?
Major VIVIAN admitted that it might be possible, but he
doubted if the invention was of the description the Gallant
Captain supposed.
Colonel FOX asked, if the Noble Lord knew what were the
terms, or the sum, required by Captain Warner?
Lord INGESTRIE had always 1001.. ed on that as a question
entirely between Captain Warner and the Government. He
thought that anything short of a very large sum would be a
bargain to the country.
After a few words from Colonel PEEL, which were quite
inaudible,
Captain PECHELL said that Captain Warner could not
have put his case into better hands, as what he thought right
he always pursued without reference to party. The present
Government had not been able to treat wish Captain Warner,
and therefore they had done no more than the late Govern.
ment. He thought that every person must now know that the
course pursued by the late Government was a most proper
one. Every body must know the respectability and efficiency
of the officers that were appointed to witness the effect of Capt.
Warner's invention, but that gentleman had hung back. '1 he
late Government, therefore, could not be blamed for not adopt-
ing an invention that had never been brought properly before
them.
Mr. BROTHERTON thought both the late and the present
Government had acted most wisely in refusing to reward this
gentleman for such an infernal. invention.—( Laughter.) He
trusted that no British Parliament would ever give a reward
for an invention, on the ground that it would blow up a whole
town at once.
The vote was then agreed to.
331,0001. was next voted for Ordnance Stores.
A vote of 2,78/. for expences of the Office of Ordnance
was agreed to.
The next Rem was far a sum of 169,0001., for the superannu
ation, pensions, and allowances to widows and children of offi-
cers, &c., in the Ordnance department.
The vote was agreed to.
The sum of '219,514/. was voted for defraying the charges of
the Commissiarat supplies fur the United Kingdom in the year
1842 and 1843.
The sum of 194,4964 was proposed for defraying the charges
of new works, including repairs of naval yards, from the 31st
day of March, 1843.
A statement was made by Captain PECHELL of the hard-
ships of the Admiralty withholding the sums due as arrears to
the widows of officers who had been inmates of lunatic asylums,
where they were supported at the expense of Government. An
accumulation of arrears was due to their widows at the pre-

sent time.
Sir G. COCKBURN deprecated the course pursued by the
Hon. and Gallant Member in bringing forward a statement of
such a nature without giving notice of his interition.
Sir T. TROUBttIDGE defended the conduct of the Ad
miralty. It was frequently attacked for not doing what it ac-
tually had not the power of doing.
Captain PECHELL did not think that this question should
be mixed up with pension, for civil services. The present was
a claim which the Admiralty acknowledged; but which they had
not the courage to meet.
After a few w ords from Sir C. NAPIER and Sir G. Cocxnuan,

ASS" •
Cap!ain I.ECH EL I. gave notice that when the report should
be brought up, he would present the petition of Airs. Forbes,
which would give the Admiralty an opportunity of giving the
necessary explanations.
Lore INGES 1 RIE was not present when the vote for the
deck-yards had been agreed to, but he wished to dr, w the at-
tention et, the Committee to the importance of naval architec-
ture. He condemned the present system, which made the Sur-
veyor of the Navy sole judge of all proposed improvements, and
attributed the present miserable state of our naval architecture
to the eoutinuanee of that system, They had several trials of
ships of late years, but they had not been fairly conducted.' There
had been a degree of favouritism manifested which had ope-
rated most prejudicially. This was a subject of very great im-
portance. and he was sure it was well worthy the attention of
the Government.
After a short conversation,
Sir C NAPIER said he had not had time to give this branch
of the estimates the attention he could have wished. Looking
to the amount annually voted for the civil naval service, up-
wards of 100,000/., he put it to the Committee whether it wai
right that they should have the whole of the situations in the
different departments filled by civilians. The manning of the
navy had been always a source of complaint, and he asked Hon.
Gentlemen opposite—and he did not do so with any factious
feeling, but he wished to call their attention to the propriety
of employing naval men in this department—he asked whether
such a course as this would not hold out an inducement to
persona to enter the navy? How many pensions would be saved
by the Government, pensions given to clerks and pursers, who
were perfectly able and competelit to fill these situations. They
had but one man who had been a purser employed in this de
partment, and he would ask whether this was as it ought to be?
He should very shortly move for certain returns of all
the civilians now employed in the navy, poiniinT out
the situation held by them before their appointment,
and whether they. were gentlemen's or noblemen's ser-
vants, together with the First Lord of the Admiralty in office

in Ireland, of the repeal of the m kit drawback in thai part of MOSES NEW. in k c p,.r flr•at Malvern, Worces‘tert,hke,
the United ! Mav 97 d the Cvown Inn, Wm ster

Me. IZEDINGTI.)N expres,e,t s surprise 1)-at ihe
tro-
ve: iimeht &hoot i now move for a t,oinmitt,e, after they bail
already made up their min:s on the subject.
After a few worth from M. SMITH O'BRIEN, the mo-
tion was agreed to.
In reply to a question from Mr. P. BORTHWICK,
Sir J. GRAN AM said that he would state on Monday when
he would proceed with the Poor-law Rill.
The House then adjourned at a Quarter past Eleven.

White and Eyre, lledt
Wore; c,
JOHN STEWART, linemiraptr, Hampton-street, Wal-
worlh,`May 31, at one, and July I, at eleven, at the Court of
Bankruptcy. Graham, Basinghall-street, official assignee ;
Reynolds, Adam-streo, Adelphi.
WILLIAM HOOPER, tobacco manufacturer, Reading,
May and July 1, at eleven, at the Court of Bankrnptcy,
Edwards, Fret7erick's-place, Old Jewry, official assigneee ; An-
lington, Gregory, Faulkner, and Follett, Bedford-row, London.
JON ROWLEY. Sen., curry-comb maker, Wilienhal,
Staffordshire, May 31 anti July 1, at eleven, at the Swan Hotel,
Wolverhampton. Hicks and Alarris, Gray's Inn •square ;
Chaplin, Gray's Inn-square, London ; Turner and Corser,
Wolverhampton.
ILLIAAI 'THORPE, stone mason, Goole, Yorkshire,
May 31 and July 1, at twelve, at the Guildhall, Doncaster.
Gaisworthy and Nichols, Cook's-court, Lincoln's Inn, London;
Wilson, Goole.

L

ELECTION COMMITTEES.
CORE (COUNTY).
The Committee met at the usual hour, Mr. HAYTER
in the Chair.
Mr. Percy, Mr. Alexander 11.1'Carthy, Mr. Goggin,
and one or two other witnesses were produced before the
Committee, and gave evidence of a similar description to
that already adduced.
Mr. Warre, the Clerk of the Peace, not being able to
attend to produce the
.registry-book, in consequenee of
indisposition, it was agreed that they might be put in at
a subsequent period.
The evidence on the part of the petitioners having
been brought to a close at about three o'clock, the Com-
mittee adjourned till eleven o'clock this day, when
Mr. Smith is to sum up.

DIVIDENDS.
At the Court of Bankruptcy, Basitighall-street.
A. Clugstoa and C. P. Chapman, brokers., Thames-street,
June 10, at half-past eleven—B. Baker, distiller, St. John-
street, Cletkenwell, June 10. at twelve—G. Woodcott, builder,
Browntew-mews, Gray's Inn-lane, June 15, at two—U.
Thorns‘m, coal merchaat, Hackney, June 13, at two—A.
Dixon and W. Taylor, merchants, Huddersfield, Yorkshire,
June 13, at half-past one—M. Parkes, printseller, Golden-
square, June 11, at one—.l. Bowers. grocer, Chipstead, Kent
—E. and C. C. Manning, drapers. High-street, kdgate, June
11, at twelve. _ _