The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-25 00:00:00

; ONDON ORPHAN ASYLUM.

Lord wirAT.ScLIFFE brought in a Bill for extend-
ing the powers of th,o trustees of that institution, which
was read a first time,
SILK WEAVERS.. . _ _

The Earl of DAYlloliSlE:gave notice that he should
to-morrow present a petition respecting silk weavers,
on which he should found a motion on that day week.
The House then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, April 24.
TOBACCO-ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE

HIP.WHITSU/sT HOLIDAYS.

Mr. BLLWITT said that he had a motion for
to-night, for a Bill to repeal the Act which
prevented the growth of tobacco in this country ;
but, before he postponed it, he wished to know
from the Right -Hon. Gentleman at the head of the
Government whether he had made any arrangement
for the adjournment of the House for the Whitsun
holidays ?—(Laughter.)
Sir R. PEEL said he was sorry to say he had not
considered the subject; but, speaking upon the moment,
he did not think, considering the state of the public
business, that he could allow a longer time than from
Friday to Wednesday or Thursday.
Mr. BLEWITT then adjourned his motion to this day
fortnight.

CHELSEA COLLEGE.
Colonel WOOD gave notice that on the Bth of May he
would move an address to her Alajesty, praying that her
Majesty would be graciously pleased to order that the Chelsea
College might be thrown open to the public, under such re-
gulations as might be deenwd fit.—( Hear. )
Captain LAYA RD inquired of the Goveinment when it
was likely the Chinese batta would be paid?
Mr. S. HERBERT was understood to say that at the
earliest opportunity steps would be taken respecting it.
DOG STEALING BILL.
Mr. LIDDELL moved for leave to bring in a Bill to prevent
dog stealing, and said he would reserve any statement he bad
to make respecting it till a future occasion.
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
RIO JANEIRO.
Mr. M. GIBSON wished to knew if the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman at the head of the Government had any objection to
lay before the House the correspondence which had taken
place between the merchants of Rio Janeiro and her Majesty's
Government, relative to the expiration of the treaty between
this country and Brazil ?
Sir ROBERT PEEL said, if the Hon. Gentleman would
repeat his question on Monday, he would give him an answer
then.
CORRESPONDENCE BETWEEN CAPT. MEYNELL,
M.P., AND MR. YOUNG, M.P.
.3ir CHARLES NAPIER said he held in his hands very
curious correspondence which had appeared in the public
newspapers—(Great laughter as having passed between
Captain Aleynell and Air. Young.—(Renewed laughter.)
1 Here the Gallant Commodore read the correspondence, which
has already appeared in all the newspapers, and which created
continued laughter, and some cries of oh.")
COLLEGE OF SURGEONS.
Colonel WOOD wished to ask the Hon. Member opposite
(Mr. Wakley) whether he intended to fix an early day for his
!notion ?
Mr. WA KLEY regretted that he could not possibly bring it
on before Tuesday fortnight.
REPEAL MEETINGS IN IRELAND.
Colonel VERNER said he had a question to ask the Right
lion. Gentleman her Majesty's Secretary of State for Ire-
land, and he did so because he had received requests to that
effect from a large number of people in the south of Ireland.
The question was—were the Executive Government in Ire-
land aware that a repeal demonstration was about to take
place at. Dundalk, on the first of May, at which Mr. O'Connell
was to be present, and for which invitations had been sent
through the country as far as Belfast, requesting people to
attend. If so, be wished to know would the Government put
a stop to this meeting in accordance with the law as laid down
by the law officers of the Crown? He had to apologise to the
Right lion. Gentleman for not giving him notice of his inten-
tion to ask this question ; but he had not had time to do so,
as, between the time that would be occupied between that ne-
cessary for the notice and the asking of the question, the in-
tended meeting would take place.
Sir T. FREMANTLE said he was not prepared to give
an answer to the question of the Hon. and Gallant Member, as
he had received no communication upon the subject. But with
reference to what had passed in Ireland, he had no doubt his
Excellency the Lord Lieutenant would take such necessary
steps as might be required.
Mr. HUME wished to ask the Right Hon. Baronet whether
he was aware of a great monster meeting intended to be held in
London very shortly, the object being to bring delegates from
all parts of the country, in order to coerce the Alembers of
that House?—Laughter. ) The constituencies of every town,
borough, and county, were called on to send up delegates on
purpose to farm a demonstration, with the view of coercing the
House. He begged to ask the Right Hon. Baronet whether
he had taken, or would take, any steps in consequence?—
( Great laughter.)
Sir T. FREMANTLE rose amid shouts of laughter, but
on finding that the question was directed to the Right Hen.
Baronet at the head of the Government, he sat down again.
Sir R. PEEL said, that not having received one of the cir-
culars of the intended meeting—(Laughter)—be was quite un-
able to say anything on the subject of the Hon. Member's
question. He might say to the Hon. Member, however, that
he did not feel much alarm in consequence.—(Laughter.)
MAYNOOTH.

Mr. M. MILNES said he had the honour of presenting a
petition from the University of Cambridge, in favour of the
Government grant to Maynooth.—(Loud cheering, which
continued for several minutes.) The Hon. Member was still
on his legs, when
Sir R. INGLIS rose amid loud cries of " Order, order,"
and great confusion. He said that the Hon. Member for
Pontefract had misled the House by stating that the petition
he had presented had emanated from the University. Had
the fact been so, the petition would have been signed by the
Chancellor, the Fellows, and other dignitaries of the Colleges,
and the seal of the College would have been affixed to it.
Such was not the ease, and be felt himself justified in calling
the attention of the House to the misnomer.—(Hear, hear. )
Mr. M. MILNES said that perhaps, if the Right Hon.
Baronet had allowed him to finish, he might then have known
more about the petitioners. The petition was from Cam-
bridge, and it ras signed by the bachelors and undergraduates
of that University. The petitioners stated, that as a petition
had b?en presented by the Right Hon. Baronet from the under-
graduates of Oxford against the grant, they felt it their duty
to record their opinion in its favour. They thought that as
there was no immediate prospect of the Irish Roman Catholic*
becoming proselytes to Protestantism, Christian duty impera-
tively called upon them to advance their moral and intellec-
tual regeneration by every means in their power.
Mr. COLLETT' presented several petitions from the Primi-
tive Methodists of Athlone, conscientiously objecting to all en-
dowments for religious purposes.
Sir R. H. INGLIS presented petitions from various parts
of the country against the grant to Maynooth.
Mr. BOUVERIE presented similar petitions.
Mr. C. BRUCE presented petitions from Elgin against the
grant.
similar petitions were presented by Sir G. Grey, Mr. Kern-
ble (from Leicester), and other Hon. Members.
Mr. HINOLLY presented various petitions from different
parts of the country to the same effect. One he begged to call
the attention of the House more particularly to. It was from
the Dissenting Chapel meeting in West George-street, Glas-
gow, under the care of Dr. Wardlaw, and they, conscientiously
refusing themselves all assistance from the State, refused to
sanction any endowment to any other sect. They, however,
rejoiced at the removal of all religious disabilities.—(Hear.)
Mr. T. Duncombe, Dr. Bowring, and Sir J. Y. Boller pre-
sented petitions to the like effect.
Mr. H AYTER presented a petition from a place in Back.
inghamshire, signed by six clergymen of the English Church
and by a great number of their parishioners, in favour of the
grant.—( Hear, hear.)
An HON Mxstaxa presented four petitions from places in
Ireland against the grant.
Mr. Sharman Crawford, Mr. Ferrand, Mr. Grogan, Colonel
Acton, Sir T. Acland, Colonel Wood, Mr. Colville, and Lerd
Rendlesham presented petitions from various places in England
and Ireland, against the Maynooth grant.
ADJOURNED DEBATE. . . .

On the order of the day being read for resuming the debate
on Mr. Ward's motion,
Mr. COLQUHOUN said the Hon. Member for Sheffield
had on the previous night quoted several extracts of speeches
made by him five years ago, calling on him to retract or defend
them. He thought it would be inexcusable to occupy the
time of the House in entering into a defence of those extracts.
There were many sentiments in those speeches which a more
mature reason had induced him to qualify.—( Hear, hear. ) He
alone should not be excluded from the privilege of altering his
opinions—( Hear, hear)—when that alteration was derived
from communication with men of various opinions—communi-
cations which mitigated those sentiments and showed him to
regard with more toleration the opinions of others.—(Hear.)
But as to the historical facts mentioned by him and denied by
the Hon. Gentleman, he would be ashamed to occupy the time
of the House for one instant in supporting, but would put into
the hands of that Hon. Member the authorities from which be
derived them, one being a volume of the " Life of Wolf Tone,'
the agent to the Reman Catholics of Ireland, and who then
occupied the same position as Mr. O'Connell now did—(Cries
of "No, no," from the Opposition)—at all events who Was a
high authority in questions relating to his own country.--
(Cries of " No," and laughter from the same quarter.) The
other volume was the "Life of AI. M,Nevin,'who, after heleft
the country, recorded the facts of which he was cognizant. I
would be trifling with the time of the Holt,e on a great ques-
tion like the present, which so deeply affected the destiny and fu-
ture condition of Ireland, to occupy himself in defending theopi-
nions of one i.f so little weight as himself. He agreed in the opinion
expressedby the Hon. Member for Sheffield, that the question o
the Irish Church, though not immediately apart of the Maynooth
Bill, was closely co nnected with it, and that in discussing the
one it would be right to refer to the other. It was remarkable
lest lie should
in:this debatehow timid and delicate themembersof the Govern-
nto
fire. touch,
he ment were in touching upon the endowment of the Irish Catholic
Church ; it was to them like a red-hot bar, which every t
hHunnld.
Mem-
berset
t ofth ethe
threadTre easufr Treasury
hisßench
arguments
was afraid
Gentleman the Member for Edinburgh,n urgh, it was said,R ig
proved to
demonstration that there was no principle in the B ill; and the
Chancellor of the Exchequer said that the
esta-
blishing a Roman Catholic Church in Ireland question of
was raised from
lack of argument against the measure, and that the question of
its endowment by the St
ate was in " the dark future." The
Right Hon. Gentleman, in the
interval of his financial calcu-
lations, must have been reading
Milton, for it could only have
appeared dark from excessive light, for a more perfect view
of the future could not aellha have been press nted than that with
which the Right Hon. Gentle man at the head of the Government
layout ed the House. There was no Roman Catholic who would
not agree that the principle they were now discussing was the
establishing of the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland. The
Right lion. Baronet at the head of the Government said he
had no religious objection to the endowment of the Roman
Catholic Church.—(Hear, hear.) The only question was
whether the Roman Catholic Church would accept of such en-
dowment.—( Hear. hear.) He did not know
what were the
feelings of the Roman Catholic priests ; but if they offered to
any set of men half a million of money, paid regularly from the
Treasury, he would like to know who would refuse it ? The
Catholic priests would put their voluntary theory in one pocket,
and the money in the other. That was certain. He had lis-
tened to the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secre-
tary of State for the Home Department with admiration for its
ability. That Right Hon. Baronet had made great sacrifices,
and he did not believe that any necessity, however pressing►
ould induce him to hide his convictions on such moment-
ous questions; he believed in his sincerity, but he very much
questioned his sagacity. He was surprised that any man of in-
tellect could contemplate the establishment of the Roman Ca-
tholic Church in Ireland, and believe he could maintain the
Protestant Church there for five years, after such an establish-
ment. Besides the establishment of two State Churches
would be a monstrous anomaly ; for instead of fulfilling the end
for which they ought to be designed, they would be sources of
a
discord, immorality, and contention. If they would
_este
tan.
Roman Catholic Church they must extinguish the _
]camnglis people wosiid
Church ; for it was quite certain th a _ e a for the
never consent to pay out of their poc hag
the endowment of the
endowment of the Catholic, and for
They _ but
Protestant Churches, 650,000 L aikere.6:(96it
wouullee;
one established Church there, be t Oaken)
ismasifteat us his Right Hon. n. •

avow his determination to support that Church, and yet adopt
a line of pc licy which would unquestionably lead to its speedy
and utter destruction. The Right Hon. Baronet at the head
of the Government said be introduced this measure for the
purpose of conciliating the Roman Catholics, but did not the
representatives of the Roman Catholic Church (Mr. Shell
and others) denounce the Protestant Chnrch in Ireland as
the most intolerable and monstrous of all anomalies, and that
to conciliate the Irish Catholics it was quite clear the Pro-
testant Church establishment there must be overthrown. The
Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government said last
session that he would support the Established Church in Ire-
land which had been established by compact, but he added
this important condition :—" Unless an overwhelming neces-
sity of public policy compels me to change my opinion." He
(Mr. Colquhoun) did not think it would require a very strong
pressure to induce this change in the Right Hon. Gentleman's
sentiments.—( Hear, bear.) So that that Church for which
they had so long, so perseveringly, and so unitedly struggled,
in opposition, must, in the opinion of the Right Hon. Baronet,
yield to the pressure of public opinion. The condition-made
by him was a plank wide enough for any Ministry
on that side of the House to join with the
Honourable Members for Sheffield and Montrose,
and sweep away the Protestant Church in Ireland. He had
heard with surprise and regret a portion of the speech of the
Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the Government, and did
not think it wise or prudent for a Minister of the Crown to
utter—he spoke of the difficulties with which the Government
' of Ireland was beset—the combinaticns which existed there—
and in two sentences after, alluded to " the threatening clouds
on the other side of the Atlantic ;" and further, that he reflected
with satisfaction that before the arrival of news of a hostile aspect
from America, a message of peace had be.'n seat to Ireland.—
( Hear, hear). If it were right to establish Maynooth, let
them do it ; hut let bins not attempt to fetter his judgment by
• such terror.—( Hear, hear). Such language might suit the
Coaciliatinn Hall, but hardly became a British Minister. Nor
was it at all suited to convince the Hou e of Commons. The
French papers, in discussing the Maynooth Bill, said it xas a
• concession to Irish agitation. If there were differences with
America or France. he felt sure that all parties in that House
would unite in assisting the Government to take that course
which became the honour, the interest, and the dignity of
England. The Noble Lord. no doubt, was quite sure that he
• should be unworthy the eonfidenoe of a 7 great party, and un-
worthy that name witieh had never been stained by the impu-
nation of cowardice, if he came down to that House, and said
.• that, though he could not overtime the arguments and the rea-
soning of his Hon. Friend, pointing to the wars threatening in
the silt and west, he should appeal to their fears of the disasters
. they were about to encounter. The poorest labourer in the
country would put on the garb of a soldier sooner than submit
. ' to it.—( Hear, hear.) He held in his hand a statement which
was made in the Freeman's Journal, the organ of the Irish
• priesthood, and he found the language wentained in it to be
this e—" The English yield (this valuable boon, no) this paltry
civility, with an agony as ifshe were yielding her life. The con-
, • . cession which the grant foreshadows has not been won by
cringing, or by giving any servile gratitude fur tenefits which
she has won herself." These were the expectations of political
gratitude which they ought to entertain for the boon which they
were now conferring, and this boon would lead immediately to
further and much greater concessions. The Members for
Newcastle and Edinburgh complained of the union of all classes
of Protestant Dissenters on this subject, and the Hon. Mem-
ber for Sheffield told them, if they took twenty-six thousand
pounds from the property of the Established Church in Ire-
land, it would put an end to their complaints, and assuage the
Irish people. If the position taken by the Dissenters was only
. a mercenary one, their opposition could not be so heating or
strenuous. The objections of the Dissenters to their giving
anything to the Roman Catholic, establishment were these :
They objected on two grounds; they objected to it on ac-
count of the voluntary principle, aad also on account of their
dissent on religious matters. The Hon. Member for Dungarvon
complained that the Church of Scotland had been made a free
church. Let him tell the Honourable Gentleman the grounds
on which that part of the Presbyterian Church became free.
Was it not, because when they came to the House they refused
them the supremacy they looked for, and yet they saw them
giving to the Roman Catholic Church what they refused to the
free church ? On these grounds they opposed the grant to
Maynooth. Honourable Members complained of their dread
of being ex'ravagern, but were they to pare down the feelings
of hard-working, honest Englishmen to their principles ? And
were they to say to them that they should not come before
the Houma with petitions expressing their feelings in whatever
language they pleased ?—( Hear, hear.) They also complained
of the speeches that were made at meetings to petition against
the Maynooth grant ; but if they referred to the proceedings
at Covent Garden they might find Honourable Members
at the other side of the House making speeches
in not the most mild or most temperate language.—
( Hear, hear.) - He, himself was attacked for having taken
the chair at one of those meetings, but he did not think that
he or any other chairman would be responsible for all that had
been said at a public meeting. If so, they should give up
public meetings altogether. They would not be deterred, he
would tell the Hon Member for Sheffield, by any lapse from
priaciple on the tart of the Government, from supporting their
own saber convictions. When he heard the sketch given last
night by the Hon. Member for Edinburgh, of the history of
Ireland. he could not help thinking of one of those words by
which Mr. O'Connell often was in the habit ot appealing to
the passions of his Irish auditors when he denominated the Irish
opposed to him, and the English opposed to him, as " Saxons."
And if they referred to the eational songs, they would find that
word " Saxon " occurring frequently in the songs which were
at this day circulated in every part of Ireland. There (AIM
not be a doubt that the Saxons, ache called them. occupied Ire-
Isrel by successive invasions, and planted their foot on Celtic
soil ; but the conduct of these foreign landlords was anything
bet politic ur wise; they kept down the Irish Celt by severe
and canal laws, inflicted on him harsh exactiorts, and took no
pains in his social or morel improvement. And as for the lii-h
Church being a church fed with wealth, it was a church which
was starved to absolute inanition up to the last fists years, by
the same selfi,hness of the Irish landed piieUsa; but then
came a better age, that awoke the re.ple to a conscious:lea; of
their dittie, and the Church then ran:tied from the position to
which it had fallen, until it came at last to a more healthy and
better condition, which was within the last fifty tears. They
comb.: not leave a better link between them and the people at
this ttm., than the labours ot men of zeal, men of education,
and men of charity, discharging their benevolent duties in the
heart of a w Id and rude nation. Ile hash seen
an example of this when he visited the residence of his Hon.
Friend the Member for Bandoe, in the neighbourhood ot
which place Roman Catholics were scattered through a very
wide district. lie recollected accompanying a man who was
at ttresen• a dignitary of the Irish Church, anal who was then
rattier advanced in v 'ars, havini spent a long life and buried
great talents in an Ob.eure and charitable object, throu2ll these
districts, and he could eat forget how he was rec- iced by those
vary Ilial-nats Catholics ; tine antler desisted from his labour,
thi. cottage was opened, and the parent acid childos horn he had
relieved from distress, rose to receive him, and he saw that
there was one great catholicity of benevolence and kindness
triumphant over ail, welding together discordant creeds and
discordant feelings in one bonil of true and lasting attachment.
If ever they did an ay with that Church, and negleced those
men, tha truest ink between them and the pop;letion that
surrosendeel them, then he would say that the be-t days
of I:eland's prosperity were numbered. On these grounds he
woulal for ever defend the maintenance of the Irish Church,
and should give to the motion of the Hon. Member for Slat f.
field the most strenuous opposition.
Mr. BATESON said that he, as an Irish Protestant and a
member of the Fstablished Church of tied country, felt him-
self compelled, by a sense of duty, to rose his feeble voice
against the monstrous and iniquitous measure proposed by the
lien. Member for Sheffield. He felt opposed to it on the
grounds of its great injustice. lie thought that he ( Mr.
Bate on) had as much right to come clown to the House and
propose that the property of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
Ward) should be devoted to the Roman Catholic clergy for
educational purposes, as he had to come and make th s motion.
The honour of that House was pledged to keep the compact ma-
. tourhed anti inviolate. Ile hoped, however, that this liberality
would not he one-sided, and he trusted that the Right lion.
Baronet at the head of the Government would take into his
consideration the claims of the Unitarians of Ulster, and would
render them as much pecuniary assistance as would enable
them to carry cut their objects. They were about to endow
Mayroeth College liberally, and already they had passed the
Charitable Itteries's Act. And why :lid they do ail this, but
on the shallow• pretence of conciliation? But what had
- been the result of this conciliation? Why, the demands
of the Roman Catholics had been increased, and the Hon.
Member for Dungarvon went so far as to say, they would not
he as isfied until they were placed on a footing with the Pro-
testants of Trinity College. The House had' been told that
the root of all evil was the Protestant Church. Now, as a
• Protestant landlord and a Protestant seldier, he repudiated all
those assertions. Fut let any Hon Member in that House
get ue and tell hint, from the bottont of his heart, that the
Protestant Church was either a curse or an injury to Ireland.
No, be defied any Hon. Member to prove anything of the sort.
The Church, instead of being a curse, was a great benefit and
blessing to Ireland.
Mr. BARING was anxious to explain, in a few words, the
vote he was about to give on the present occasion, and he was
anxious that the House should bear with him for a few mo-
ments while he stated the grounds upon which he was pre-
pared to vote with the Right Hon. Baronet opposite, and op-
poses the motion of his Hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield.
He felt compelled to address the ;louse, because his Right Hon.
Friend the Member for Edinburgh, in his aisle speech last
night, stated that the House was divided on this question into two
parties—namely, those who were prepared to vote with his Hon.
Friend, and those who were ready to vo'e against him, and to
say that the property of the Irish Church should be maintained
inviolate. Now, although he should vote against the motion
ref his Honourable Friend, he was not prepared to be included
in the latter category. Ile did net consider that by supporting
the Bill as it now stood he was precluded hereafter from
going into its p. inciple, and the principle upon which Irish the
Church ought to be maintained. He believed the Bill of the
. Government would prove a great boon and benefit to Ireland,
and he was therefore earnestly desirous that it should, in its
present form, be carried into effeet, anti in doing so he slid not
think he was opposing either his former opinions or principles.
. He was not bound to support an amendment brought forward
by a Member of his own party when lee thought it was to injure
the. practical course which he wished to pursue. His Hon.
.„ Friend some' years ago proposed that they should withdraw all
et support from' both Establishments in Ireland. That was the
As, opinion of his Hon. Friend three years ago, and whether he re-
leined that opinion still, of course, he (Mr. Baring) could not
o: say. Well, two years arts
he wished to withdraw all support
,„ front the two establishm
Ilr• WARD—No ; what I said was, "If you pay the Church,
.;.pay all or pay none."
Mr. BARING eontinued—At all events be was correct
• in the sense of his Hon. Friend, though not in the particular
~ expression; but be that as it might, he himself believed the Bill
~to be a practical proposition, likely toproduce great benefit in
Ireland, and he thought the course of a practical man ought to
rather to support what was in reality a measure, than
rodh
support a resolution which, however wise
• ;all events very ill-timed. Entertaining these
be, was at
views, he was
- prepared to throw any difficulty in the way of the Cove
..merit measure. Everebody of common sense then e rn-
, that they could not pass the Bill into a law if they were trust
st
know
• to it the proposal of his Hon. Friend the Member for to
hef-
affix
h, held, . His honourable Friend, however, with perfect frankness
_,(teoarell that he did not bring forward his measure
to
e.wtbstruct the principle of the Bill, but for the sake of introduc-
ing and laying down a groat principle. His Hon. Friend said
• shicevas the first step taken in a course which would hereafter
. bare to be more extensively carried out ; and it was, therefore,
,advisahle-that they should sketch out the principles by which
e they were always to be guided in that course. But did his
lion. Friend tell him what theme great principles were? If
1 -tehere erase any advantage to be obtained in making these prime-
it pie* known to the people of England, they should at any rate
~anake them intelligible and distinct. Ile could not understand
what the particular principles were which Isis Honour-
able Friend wished to enunciate in his ainendnitent.—
( Hear.) If the endowment of the Catholic Church was to
be considered as the principle, what did it matter whether it
were endowed from the Consolidated Fund or from the funds
of the Established Church ? That question might be reserved
for after consideration. If it was expedient to state some
principle to the people of England, by which they would
hereafter be guided, of course it was no less expedient that
they should state that principle clearly and distinctly, but he
confessed the present was not the most favourable period
for laying those principles down. He was not surprised at the
difference of opinion which reigned on his own side of the
Ataise, . It .was one of the great difficulties of legislating on
Duch a subject. "Was it then advisable to lay down at that
moment, and white the House was in this state

of indecision of p-iuciplo, what should hereafter determine the
course they were to pursue ? Were not the difficulties already
sufficiently incumhering, without calling upon them to lay down
the pr inciples which should hereafter guide them pon this ques-
tion? Well, then, let them deal with the evils s they at pre-
sent found them, and not state the principles 'o the people of
England which they might hereafter find it nece ary towithdraw
from. If this measure were granted, the peat, and satisfaction
that would be certain to follow it in Ireland, would more than
repay this country for a much greater cones sion.—( Hear.)
He had no apprehension that it would not pass, for the real:and
only feeling of hostility against it as a Roman Catholic mea-
sure was exhibited only by the Protestant Dissenters. But,
he would ask, was it not likely that other feelings
of hostility would be raised to P, if this
motion were persevered in? He feared that Hon. Members
on his side of the House were not sufficiently sensible of the
apprehension that such was likely to occur. lie did not en-
tertain those conscientious objections to the grant that others
did; on the contrary, he did think, as a Protestant, that it
would be for the advantage of the Protestant Church to have
its present temporalities reconsidered, and those scandals—(he
did not say it offensively)—of which so much had been said of
it, removed.—( Hear, hear.) He did believe it would be a
great blessing to Ireland if the Government endowed the Ro-
man Catholic Church, provided it was not done in such a way
as to make either the people or the clergy feel that that grant
had placed them either in a degraded or servile position.—
( Hear, hear.) He believed that this grant would not only be
a blessing to Ireland, but an act of policy by this country, and
one worthy of the cause of Christianity.—( Hear, hear.) He
was well aware that there were very many Protestants who
were firm supporters of their religion, but were ready to admit
that the Fstablishment had its abuses, and that they ought to
be removed; yet he doubted very much if the taking away of
the funds of one establishment to support another would be
likely to give satisfaction.—( Hear, hear.) One thing was
quite clear, and that was, that the English as well as the Irish
people felt deeply upon this question ; and, therefore, he would
say, that if the Government could give this boon to Ireland
without giving dissatisfaction to England, he would be
prepared to support it.—( Cheers. )
Mr. BERNAL said he regretted that he felt himself called
upon to oppose the views of his Right Hon. Friend who had
just sat down, and in doing so he should do him the justice to
say that he had expressed his sentiments upon this question,
that evening, in that bold, upright, and comprehensive manner,
that did him honour, and showed that he was incapable of utter.
ing any sentiment that he did not feel the truth and justice of
in his heart.—(Hear, hear.) But the reasons alleged and the
arguments used by his Right Hon. Friend, for the vote he in-
tended to give, were not satisfactory to him, nor were they
such as would deter him (Mr. Bernal) from giving his support
to his Hon. Friend Mr. Ward's motion. He would not enter
upon any long argument, in addition to those adduced by his
Hon. Friend, in support of his motion ; but he would endeavour
to confine himself as much as possible to the merits
of the motion itself.—( Hear, Hear.) His Honourable
Friend had said that the present Parliament should
not do any act by which to fetter the acts of future legislation ;
but how did he propose to remove the difficulty ? Did the
Hon, Member suppose that the proposition of the Right Hon.
Baronet was such a one as could not be disturbed hereafter ?
He (Mr. Bernal) would contend for it, that there were inhe-
rent difficulties in the way of legislating effectively upon this
subject, which would always embarrass it.—( Hear, hear. )
His Right Hon. Friend had said that in legislating upon this
question, regard should be had to the opinions of the people of
England; but, at the same time, it should not be forgotten
that they should also legislate conscientiously, and in such a
manner as they conceived they were bound as legislators to do.
—(Hear, hear.) He was not one of those who had bound him-
self to that shadow of a party, or that ghost of a section—
(Laughter)—called the Irish Church party.—( Hear, hear.)
Bat, at the same time, he never would be one to lend himself
to what was called the destruction of the Irish Church.—

(Hear, hear.) But when he had heard Hon. Members in that
House declare, in the course of this debate, that at the time
of the Union a bond was entered into, by which the
Irish Church Establishment was to be held hence-
forth inviolable, he would ask what had they not
already due in regard to that establishment ?--(Cries of
" Hear, hear.") Had they not since considerably narrowe 1 the
whole of the Ecclesiastical Establishment in Ireland?—( Hear,
hear.) Had they not dealt summarily with the tithe question ?
—(Flear, hear.) If so, then, he would say, they slsould now,
once and for ever, abandon this fanciful condition.— (Cheers. )
He would say, if they meant to act in this same way for the
future, there was nothing in the history of the past to render
.the pursuit of such a course inconsistent.—(Hear, hear.) He
had heard the Hon. Member for Newcastle declare that he was
inviolably attached to the Church Establishment, both from
principle and ss a matter of State policy. He (Mr. Bernal)
regretted that the Hon. Member was not in his place, or he
would be ready to answer him.—( Hear, hear.) He had also
heard other Hon. Members make use of language in reference
to this question, that was not very creditable.—( Hear, hear. )
Ile had heard of such expressions as the " No Popery" cry,
and l'o;sish domination and ascendancy, and that the
Catholics were treasonable subjects to the Queen and
Constitution ; out he would say he held such language in the
greatest detestation, and he repudiated it.—(Cheer..) Ten
years ago he heard similar language used, when the Houses of
Parliament were burnt; and therefore he would hold no alli-
ance with such persons. as it would be impossible far such to
conduct the discussions of that House in that calmness of tone
and temper by which they should be regulated.—( Hear, hear,
and cheers. ) He did not think the motion of the Hon. Mem-
ber for Sheffield would remove the difficulty that lay in the
way of this questi n ; but it would tend to soften it dos n ;
but the mement the present Government put forward :his grant
in the shape of a 11111, then indeed it became an endowment of
the College of Maynooth.—( Hear, hear. ) He had seen by
some of the papers that certain persons supported this measure
because it would have the effect, they said, of increasing
Protestereism in Ireland if once the priests were well educated.
--(Laughter. ) lle would like to kooky, from the Right Hoe.
Baronet ( Sir B. Peel), why. if this measure hod been deemed
so neces,asy for Ireland, it had not been granted ten sears
ago? The Right lion. Baronet had stated that he mad, the
concessian because he feared war was impending ; and that, he
(Mr. Bernal) should say, wa,. at the very least, an indiscreet
speech, for the Right Hon. Baronet had no right to propose
the measua e at all, if he did not intend it as a beneficial measure.
This question had been reiterated in the ears of the House
u4que ad nauscum, and it. would be repeated continually even
if the Speaker should live to the age of Methuselah.—(t.Gui
1 iughter. ) He ( Mr. Bernal) contend,l that the state of
things at present casting in Ireland eo7:1,1 wit continue. If
they wished to in iintain it, they must do so by means of brute
force, and not by argument. He thought it was possible for
two establishments to exist together in Ireland, but not on the
same ground a; they did at present. In parts of Ilheoish
Germany the Protestants and Catholics lived together
in the utmost !lemony. In parts of Switzerland
sad Germane,. it was a frequent thing for the Pro-
testants to we the temple of worship in the morning,
and the Catholics in the evening. It had been said the Catty,-
lice of frelani wished for the destruction of the Established
Church in Ireland. Ile believed that no such wish existed.

He believed that many of the Cabolie Members of that :-louse
would not desire to see the E,tablkhed Church in Ireland
broken up. He (Mr. Bernal) would support the measure
eonseient iou,ly, and fearless of thz result lie believed it would
be a beneficial measure, and thereore nothing should deter him
from supporting it.
Captain GLADSTONE said he wished to speak with all
due respect of those gentlemen who, from the place he repre-
sented, had petitioned the House against this grant Ile be-
lieved them to be actuated by eenscientious motives ; but,
having made up his mind to eupport the grant to Mal no ith,
he could not support the prayer of those individuals. He was
not ashamed to confess that he Inid felt considerable difficulty
in coming to a conclusion on this question. He did not mean
to say so far as regarded the mere question of an increase of
the errant to Maynooth, for as to the necessity of that he had
mad; up his mind; and he thought that the present measure
ought not to be considered in that light alone. His convic-
tion was, that the increased grant was absolutely nece.sary.
He had himself visited Mayncoth, and he could confirm the
statement which had been made by his Right lion. Friend at
the head of the Government, that it was in a disgraceful state,
and resembled a deserted barrack more than anything else.
They 1110 heard the dvelarations of many who had been (inn-
n.-cted with this institution that it was not commodious.
H• believed that the present state of Maynooth was diiracertil
and not creditable to its connection with the State, and that
some change ought to take place. As far as regarded the reli-
gious part of this question, he would say that he had the
strongest feeling for the Protestant religion, and he had, he
trusted, an equal respect for the religion of his Roman Catholic
fellow-countrymen. There were those who objected to this
grant, believing it to be dangerous to the Church, and to the
cause of Protestantism. He confessed that he could not bring
himself to believe that this would be the case. If the
effect cf th's to asure should be to give a more lib •ral
education to those who were hereafter to become the priests
of Ireland—if it were to give an increase of comfort to
them during their stay at Maynooth, he believed that it would
be beneficial to the country, and when those individuals left
the College of Maynooth, they would not forget the source
from which they had obtained such education and such com-
forts. It was generally known, that the feelings with which
the students at Maynooth left that College were not the most
favourable to the general peace and welfare of the country.
During his visit to the College of Maynooth—and here he
wished to bear his testimony to the courtesy and kindness
evinced by the Rev. President of that initit utinn—duringhis visit
to that College he put this question to the President, "Suppose
a large and more liberal endowment were made to the College
of Maynooth, do you think the effect of it would be to in-
duce the higher classes of the Roman Catholics to send their
sons there for the purpose of becoming priests?" and the an-
swer to that question had surprised him. The answer was,
" The higher classes do not exist"—he meant of course that
they did not exist in sufficient numbers to fill up the priesthood
of Ireland. He (Captain Gladstone) supported the grant, be-
cause he thoug;.t it would be beneficial to I. eland ; but he
felt perfectly at liberty hereafter to vote against any endow-
ment. He thought the measure had been brought forward at a
proper time, and in a proper spirit. He did not believe it had
been brought forward through fear, but that it had been pro-
posed simply to benefit Ireland. But while he said this he
would contend for the supremacy of the Protestant Church
in Ireland. He cenceived that a prescription of 300 years was
enough to establish that supremacy, and should it ever be
attacked it would be found that the motto of its supporters
was still no surrender.
Lord HOWICK slid he agreed to a great extent in what
had fallen from his Right Hon. Friend the Member for Ports-
mouth (Mr. Baring). He certainly did not concur with him
in his concluding observation, but he did agree with him that
the motion' of his Hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield was
not submitted to the House in a convenient form, or on a con-
venient occasion.—(Hear, hear.) He thought the occasion
inconvenient, because undoubtedly it interfered with the pro-
gress of a Bill, to which he, for one, was most anxious to give
the best support he was able. He thought it more inconve-
nient, because, while the question which his Hon. Friend
wished to raise by his motion was the great and important ques-
tion whether the whole of the arrangements of the Irish Church
ought to be remodelled or not, he was of opinion that that
question was badly raised upon the appropriation of
SO comparatively small a sum as 26,0001. That
sum was far too small a practical proposition to bring forward
as a test of so great a principle, but, at the same time, as it
seemed to be the wish of Gentlemen on both sides of the
House, that this question should be considered as clearly in-
tended to decide the point of whether they were to maintain,
bulniathlteedrecd,huarscaht present
Ireland
aappropriated, ther some propertyo
arr arrangement
them
en Et
st
wasa-
to be considered—as it was the feeling on both sides of the
House, that this great question was to be so considered, and
tyhi
ets thoelmdivision
he
was willing w
so to upon it was to be toaokoesn i d
oars theit test
Though oftlehi
he
felt on the present occasion 'very unequal to the ta.sk of address-
ing the House upon this subject, yet, as it was one upon which,
ever since his entrance into public lie, he took so deep an in-
terest, upon which he entertained opinions so strong,mo which every
atsmeo
x.same
light more,il
es s i
oh
ge
gty hae
aar (tr 1
could'es
doe
opinionoxt thp allow ee r
gieuhneoeswt ethic
question
only
nne
debate
yoe
ibrsnaeattrdhovegeet
odulotarooti
ems strengthen engthen
Co tohmaui
rgcchl
hots eibnowtittorf
do andwithout
rieo-s
his Right lion. Friend the Member fer Edinburgh
Macaulay.) In his unanswerable speech upon the subject Cr.
last night, he entirely concurred. He always regarded the
maintenance of the Irish Church upon its present footing as
contrary to every principle of justice and of policy.—( Hear,
hear.) He believed in his conscience that the maintenance
of that Church had been the great obstacle to the spread of
the Protestant religion in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) . He was
so persuaded of the truth of the great principles of reli-
gion, that he firmly believed if they were given fair play—if
they were not weighed down by the injustice of that system

with which they were united, they must in the course of three
centuries have taken root and flourished on the soil of Ireland as
they had done in other countries.—( Hear.) He believed
that the Irish Church was the source of that misgovernment
and oppression under which Ireland had, for three centuries
suffered.—( Hear, hear.) That was the view which he took
of the subject, and it was one which he never concealed.
When he was in the Government, and was a party to the
appropriation clause, he never disguised the fact, that the
arguments on which he supported that proposition were argu-
ments, if pushed to their legitimate conclusion, would have car-
ried him farther than the clause then proposed.—(Bear.)
He never disguised that such was the effect of those princi-
ples, and if he contended for a proposition that fell far
short of them, he did so only because he believed that at
that time the Roman Catholics of Ireland were prepared to
accept far less than in justice they were entitled
to demand.—(Hear, hear.) In the year 1838, when they
consented to pass the Tithe Bill without the appropriation
clause, he did not conceal the fact that he acquiesced in that de-
termination of the Government to which he then belonged, not
because he altered his opinion of the justice of that clause, but
because he felt that the time at which such a compromise might
be accepted had gone by. The Right Hon. Baronet opposite
might remember that that, and that only, was the ground on
which he consented to be a party to the bringing forward of the
Tithe Bill, without the appropriation clause. And he did not
value that clause so much for its intrinsic value as for being a
tender of part of the just claims of the Roman Catholics ; and,
when originally proposed, the Catholics were willing to accept
it as a concession, not co much to their interests as to
their feelings and their serve of honour, which were
wounded by the existine. arrangements. But in IE3B
it was obvious to him, from the protracted contest', on
the subject of the appropriation clause, that the time
must come when compromise being no longer accept-
able, a larger and more difficult question must come under
discussion. He did not raise the question then, because those
most interested in it did not seem to think it an occasion on
which it could be advantageously brought forward. But he
foresaw that the question would be brought forward; and he
never concealed, being then in office, his views on a matter in
which he felt that justice required it should be determined.
He referred to those things merely to show that when the Right
Hon. Baronet opposite (Sir J. Graham) spoke last night of
Government on his side of the House being prepared to go
farther now than formerly, he did not do them justice, at least
he did not do it to him ( Lord Howick). He would bear him
(Lord Howick) witness that his opinions on this subject kad
been frankly avowed ; and that he supported those opinions to
the utmost of his power.—( Hear, hoar.) After having be-
fore addressed the House on the subject now before it, and
after the speech of his Right Hon. Friend, the Member for
Edinburgh, he should not attempt new to point out all the
defects of the existing arrangements of the Irish Church.
He wished rather to go at once to the practical
question as to how the anomaly and injustice of
those arrangements were to be met. He had
no hesitation in stating his opinion on that point.
More than two years ago he stated that the time was gone by
when a compromise would be of pre. He firmly believed that
if they were contented to accept; the appropriation clause of
1835, they might, for their time at least, maintain without
serious inconvenience the Protestant Established Church of
Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) But they triumphed in their resist-
ance to that compromise, and the consequence was that they
now brought about a state of things, in which he thought a
compromise was no longer practicable. He believed that they
must now do full justice to the people of Ireland.—( Cheers. )
It was no use any longer to palter with the question. For him-
self, he would never again be a party to an incomplete and in-
adequate measure of reform—he would never disturb the
country by propesinr a measure which did not go to the
root of the evil.—(Hear, hear.) When he said " the
root of the evil," what he meant was, that they
must deal on equal terms with Catholics and Protestants.—
(Cheers.) There must be no distinction—no violent asr et op-
tion of correctness of doctrine and prior claims to the regard of
the State on the part of the Protestants.—( Hear, hear, and
cheers.) Catholic and Protestant interests must in his opinion
be considered and dealt with alike.—( Cheers.) That was not
the time for discussing the proper mode of doing so, but he
would tell them, because he wished to have no concealment
on the subject, what, in the present state of his
ieformation, appeared to him to be the best mode
in which the subject should be dealt with. In the
first place, he would save all existing interests.—( Hear,
hear.) He would not in any way interfere with those who
now enjoyed incomes from the Irish Church revenues—
( Hear, hear)—and, at present, he thought they were bound
to draw on the Consolidated Fund of this country for the sup-
port of the Roman Catholic Church. Under any other circum-
stances this might be injustice, but he had the strongest opi-
nion that Ireland herself ought to provide for the religions in-
struction of the Irish people, as England provided for the In.
struction of the English people, and Scotland provided
for the instruction of the Scotch 'people.—( Hear, hear.)
As a permanent arrangement, he held that it would
be what justice required, and they had no right to call on the
English people, or on the Scottish people, to contribute to the
religious instruction of the people of Ireland.—(llear, hear.)
But as a temporary arrangement the case in his opinion was
different—he thought it was the fault of the English themselves
that Ireland was not in a situeion at once to provide for the
religious instrnction o' the Roman Catholics from the Church
property of Ireland. It was the prejudices prevailing in this
country which prevented a measure from being adopted by
which a considerable fund would be already at their disposal.
—( Hear, hear.) If the prejudices of the English and Scotch
p ogle had not interposed, the appropriation clause
would have been careied in 1835 ; and not only
that, hut if these prejudices had not interfered—if
they had b'en able to deal with the application of the pro-
perty of the Irish Church as reason and common sense dic-
tated—his opinion was, that they would not be compelled to
fritter ass av and waste that property as they had been.—( Hear,
hear. ) They scandalously waited that property—first, by
the arrangements of len with reference to bishop' lands.
If the property of the Irish Church had not been devoted to
unpoeular purposes—if it had not been applied to objects
which the general sense of the people of Ireland was against,
his opinion was that they could not have so wasted that pro-
reit y—that if the property of the Irish Church was devoted
to the instru-tion of the great body of the people,
neither Parliament no: the people of Ireland themselves
would have consented to the arrangements made wish regard
to the bishops' lands.—( Ilear, hear.) In like manner it was
an unjust application of the revenues of the Irish Church which
compelled them in 1835 to coreent to a sacrifice of 25 per
cent. of that property. As, therefore, that mistake was
forced on Parliament by the prejudices—he admitted tl.e honest
prejudices—of the people of England and Scotland. the cause
of that mistake might fairly fall on those who committed it;
and the peaple of England and Scotland ought to pay for a
time a' provision for the Catholic Church ; but ultimately, he
said, that that provision ought to be supplied by Ireland her-
self. If he had to deal with the subject, he would say,
let the whole property of the MAI Church be vested
in the hands of comsnissieners. Let them pay the incomes
of existing incumbents, and as those interests fell in, the first
charge on the funds would be to make due provision for the
Catholic clergy—be said the first charge, because he knew
that on his side of the House, as well as on the other, it hod
been the custom to say, that the surplus ought to go to the
Roman Catholics. He repudiated that notion as altogether
unju,t, and said that the Catholics had, in every point of view,
the first claim on the funds. They were tl.e majority—they
were the poorest, and the property was originally set apart
for the maintenance of their Church. Upon another ground
they had also a just claim. He thought it was fur the national
interest that the Roman Catholic clergy should be provided
for, precisely as he thought it for the interest of England that
the clergy of England should have an independent provision,
without trusting to the contributions of their flocks.—( Hear,
hear.) lie thought it of the most essential importance that the
clergy of the great body of the Irish people should have ine
comes independent of the caprice of those wham they taught.
He was most distinctly opposed to what was called the voluntary
principle. He was utter,y unable to understand the views Of
those who adopted that policy. Gentlemen upon both sides of
the House agreed that the State ought to intei fere in support
of the education of the people, and that it ought not to be
trusted merely to the voluntary efforts of individuals. Large
grants were made for education in England, in Ire!and, and in
Bcotland ; and he regretted that the unfortunate sectarian
feelings which prevailed between Churchmen and Dissenters
prevented them from carrying out as far as they might the be-
nefits of education, the means of which the State was willing to
provide. If education, then, ought not to be trusted to the
voluntary efforts of individuals, the case was mach
stronger against leaving the religious education
of the people to the support of voluntary contributions of indi-
viduals. Why, those who were the least sensible of the wants
of religion, were the very persons to whom the advantages of
religion were of the most importance, and they were the per-
sons who would be the least inclined to contribute t• its sup-
port.—(" Hear, hear," from the Chancellor of the Exche
quer.) He was glad to hear the Right Hon. Gentleman cheer
that. If the Hon. Gentleman concurred with him in that
fe,hrig— if they felt the necessity of providing religious in-
struction for the people, let him (Lord Howick) ask
them in what shape it ought to be provided ? Was it
in the shape in which it would be useless, or in a
shape in which it would be acceptable ?—( Hear, hear.) Was
oughtit for practical
supply
purposesl
itgh
ieoyu
sm eeadnute
attoi
o in providea fiotrt?m,to
faifflnfsouwrsd,ohthi,inctgihhmeiiyit
uclet,
that
attaht belyree tui
religious
itoitruhyset
hpeeedmoupscleaeltvoi
eofsn
irne
waslnand.—( Hear. )
would be
thoughtmh oo
ws most
could
pI fo
r ttahneeye ,
in a manner in which it would be most acceptable? Ile was so
persuaded of the necessity of such a proposition, that he
was ready to find means for it from any source—
he was ready to take the money, in the first in-
stance, from the Consolidated Fund, or from any other fund,
for he felt that with regard to the Catholic population of Ire-
land, it was absolutely necessary to provide for the religious
instruction of that country. Why should they compel the
peasantry of the most destitute and worst taught country in
the world to find the funds for the payment of the religious in-
struction they received, when there was a magnificent national
endowment which he said was theirs by right ? To do that
was the moat flagrant violation of justice which England
had ever been guilty of.—( Hear, hear.) But if they provided
in the first instance for the Catholics, he was
perfectly willing also to provide for the Protestants.
He was quite willing to meet the assertion, that the Protestant
Church was inadequate to its purposes, upon higher and nobler
grounds than any that had been alleged. He thought that the
property of Ireland should be taxed for the purposes of this
Bill, in the amount in which it was relieved in 1838.—( Hear,
hear.) He thought that there might be obtained a fund which
would meet all the exigencies of the case which had been so
strongly put forward, and he concurred with those who had
given it its due prominence. But he would ask the Right
lion. Gentleman opposite, was he really serious ?--(Cheers. )
Did he really mean to say, that if the Bill were frankly and
faithfully proposed to the House, as a measure to satisfy the
Irish people, it would be refused?--(Cheers.)
Sir It. PEEL—No.--(Cheers.)
Lord HOWICK agreed with the Right Hon. Baronet. He
was sure that nothing which might equalise the position of re-
ligions in Ireland would be rejected by the House.—(Cheers.)
He thought that all religions in Ireland should be placed upon
an equality, and he was sure that the people of Ireland would
never be contented with less.—(Cheers.) They had been told
that a message of conciliation had been sent to Ireland. What
was the tenor of that message ?—( Cheers. ) In weighing the
value of that offer, let us consider what it was worth.—( Hear,
hear.) Let us only consider what are the real facts of the
case. Let us consider that the poorest people in the world
were obliged to support the richest priesthood, who preached
doctrines—when they preached at all—quite opposite to the
opinions, often hurtful to the feeiings, of those who supported
them.—( Hear, hear.) The security and safety of the
Established Church had always been made the pretext of
oppression to Ireland.—(Cheers.) Was it any wonder that
animosities should arise ? Would we, as Englishmen, say that
there should he sustained in this country by all the powers of
the people, and by all the rights of the constitution,
a Catholic Church, which the people abhorred, and which was
maintained by majorities of troops in one part of the empire,
and majorities of votes in another. He would ask the House
theystT heo
eu lr should intended
suggest
Government,
to allow him to come back to this question. How could Right
Hon. Gentlemen opposite bring this measure forward unless
t too gohneo Hd doubt, further
Hon. Baronet
Upon?Bhaardo
nfee
felt
tt
to
oihs
considerasret themselves
the question
whatgq rueheasattdi obne
diffi-
culties been
effect of his speeches upon his own partisans.—(Cheers.)
and embarrassments 'from the opposition of their present
Hight Hon. Baronetwhich
had said that he wouler 'dee
they held when out of office. The
piinciples to those
that some expression of his Secretary for the Home Department
Ise himself if he did not acknowledge
was
hasty and ill-advised. But he
(Lord Howick) would ask,was it not i '
nionous to the repute-

tion of the Right Hon. Gentleman himself ? was it not most
hurtful to that great empire, of which so large a portion was
confided to his care? was it not most hurtful to the dignity of
that House, that upon a great question, in which so many in-
terests were involved, a Minister of the Crown was placed in a
situation to hold such language and to make such amendments ?
A few short months might bring the Right Hon. Baronet
to the distressing alternative of asserting to the
House that " I was wrong before, and I am
not right now."—( Cheers.) The Right Honourable
Baronet had needlessly and wantonly renewed difficulties
which were passing away. If they have given to the shadows
form and substance, it is not our faults. You (said the Noble
Lord) fought with me inch by inch when I asked of you to
give this much of concession to the Irish people. Do as you
will, you cannot govern the people. of Ireland as heretofore.
For my part, I shall support the amendment.—(Cheers.)
Mr. HAMILTON opposed the resolution. A reference
had been made to the Blue-book, and he had also made it his
business to refer to that Blue-book, and he found that the re-
presentations which bad been made of the state of the Irish
Church were entirely incorrect. He found, by that report,
that there were eighty-two benefices in Ireland. He was
aware that a distinction was drawn between parishes and
benefices—(Hear, hear)—but he found that a great difference
existed between the representations of the Roman Catholic
party and those who were opposed to them. The Hon. Gen-
tleman then went into a series of statements respecting eke
number and the value of the benefices in the hands of the Pro-
testant Irish clergy, in order to show that the means at present
derived from the benefices and from the parishes possessed by the
Protestant clergy were only moderate remunerations for the
duties they had to perform. He believed that the propagation
of Christian truth was not to be effected by merely human
means, and he thought that the success of the Irish Established
Church was not to be charged upon it as a deficiency. They
had no means for rendering the Irish Church Establishment
available for its purpose, and if they considered that this Es-
tablishment was to be answerable for its effects, he would ask
what had been the effects of the Educational Commission ? It
was well known that the Educational Commission had failed in
effecting all that it desired, and he thought that the promotion
of Christianity was not to be effected by any merely human
means. They had heard a great deal of restitution during
that debate.—(Hear, hear.) But what was the case ? At
bta
the time the Irish Church oined those endowments, it was
not in connexion with the Church of Rome. Until that con-
nexion had been formed, there had been no question as to the
possession or the use of the revenues which were attached to
the Church. In the time of Henry 11., this connexion had
been formed, and had continued for three centuries, but at the
Reformation this connexion had been broken, and it was not
until all hope had been gone and the allegiance of the popu-
lation of Ireland was lost to Rome that the Pope had attempted
to establish any other Church. Much had been
said of the injury offered to the Roman Catholics of Ireland,
but he thought that something should be made of the insult
offered to the feelings of the Protestant inhabitants of Ireland.
The Protestants had always been the main dependence—he
might call them the garrison of the Government in Ireland.—
(Ironical cheers.) In 1835, at the request of the Minister of the
day, the Right Hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government,
the Protestants of Ireland had readily and in a moment dis-
solved a confederacy which was dear to them from many recol-
lections, and in which their prejudices had been interwoven.
He did not wish to speak harshly of the Members of her Ma-
jesty's Government, but he thought it was his duty to warn
them of trifling with the feelings of their Irish fellow Protestants.
They would, in such a case, find that Protestants would
league themselves with repealers—( Hear, hear)—or, what
would be as bad, they would see party conflicts—one class
naturally exulting in the triumph of their own Church and
their own party, and the other bitterly regretting all conces-
sions made to the rival party, and determined, as far as they
could, to thwart any such intentions on the part of the Go-
vernment.—(Cheers.) These would be the fruits of this
motion of the lion. Member for Sheffield, if it were carried
—a measure, the result of which would be a subversion of all
good feeling, and the substitute of the opposite; exultation on
the one hand on account of these concessions being opposed to
the antagonist feeling ; on the other side, of deep and fruitless
regret and poignant °disappointment...4 Cheers. )
Mr. B. OSBORNE expressed his sorrow that he had not
had an opportunity at an earlier period of addressing the
House on thateuleject. He had, however, listened with great
attention to the debate, and he could not avoid expressing a
doubt that it would exhibit an unsatisfactory spectacle to the
admirers of academic rule and of academic education, for they
would find the Members who represented the Universities,
with but one exception, to a man disinclined to grant this con-
cession to Ireland, and disposed to battle—nay, to die—in the
breach ere the measure should be carried.—(Hear, hear.) The
Hon. Gentleman who had last spoken. and who was the re-
presentative of a decreasing party in Ireland—he meant the
Orange party—had threatened the Right lion. Baronet with
the enmity of his party—if he persevered in his intentions he had
threatened to amalgamate with the rcpealers.
Mr. HAMILTON explained.
Mr. OSBORNE would accept the explanation as it was
given, but when the lion. Member lauded the patriotism and
loyalty of the Protestants, and referred them to the times of
Archbishop Hunter, hr. ( Mr. Osborne) would carry him to a
still earlier period. He would take him to that period in the
history of Ireland when Protestants were the abettors of rebel-
lion, when Wolfe Tone and other Protestants were the leaders
of rebellion, and, therefore, he said, away with the cry of Pro-
testant integrity and Protestant loyalty. The Roman Catholic
subjects of Ireland, he would aver, were as loyal as the
most Protestant Members in that House.—( Cheers.) If
the Honourable Member had but made himself acquainted
with the principles inculcated at the College of Maynooth, he
would not have joined in raising the senseless cry which had
been heard against that Cat hole seminary. He (Mr. Osborne)
was much struck with the speech of the Right lion. Baronet at
the head of her Majesty's Government on the preceding even-
ing. The Eight Hon. Baronet appeared, on that occasion,
to be more engaged in the task of defending his own consistency
than the character of the Irish Church, sod, with his usual
adroitness, he, in the after-part of 'his speech, referred to
O'Connell and to the Oregon territcry—to everything, in fact,
but the real question before the House, which lie thi•ew over-
board altogether.—( Hear, hear.) He held in his hand a
paler containing the recorded opinions of three of the
Right Honourable Baronet's friends—men of great talent and
filling a high position—and the first he should refer to
would be Lord Brougham.—(Laughter.) He was new sup-
posed to be of the same party-with the Right Hon. Baronet
(Continued laughter.) That Noble Lord said, in speaking of
the Establishment in Ireland, " God forbid that the Church
should have the same power over its property that individuals
Fad over theirs," and he argued that the Church revenues
might be legally applied to the purposes of education as the
State might think fit. The Hon. Gentleman had alluded to
the subject of compact, as known and acted on at the time of
the Union. What was the Act of Union? It was this. The
repreeentativee of a small minority of the Irish people, in
order that their Church should be perpetuated, and in conse-
quence of certain pecuniary reasons, sold the liberties of
the Irish nation and the Irish Church. (Loud
cheers.) lie asked if the Government were to act
upon precedent, why that which was thought good for Canada
should not be good for Ireland also ?—( Cheers. ) Why should
not the same principle be applied in both countries.—(Heir,
hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary for the Home
Department seemed, in his speech of last night, to have rather
mi,represented the opinions entertained by Hon. Members on
that side of the lieuse • He seemed to think that they desired
the entire subversion of the Irish Church. He e ould answer
for himself, and he knew that he could answer for many others,
that they desired no such thing. But they could wish that
that Church had tried to fulfil the expectations on which it
had been originally founded. lie could inform the House that
in Ireland there were 218 parishes which contained not one
the usefulness of the Established Church
Protestant.—( Hear.) 723 parishes had not one Church, and
consequently no service at all.—( Hear, hear.) lie could not
then help lamenting the ignorance exhibited by Hon.
The Hon. Member hail endeavoured
airteltahnedTimCCi:beuerts n)o change had taken
to carry the House with him by referring to what he called the
gil‘nlircrirlii.oebulaesnrspder—crisoldeCcohifienetgirise. reformation. Why, the reformation had
There hal been,
place in the opinions of the people. The Government and the
monarch of that day wanted to seize the revenues of the Irish
Church, and this
innedveeerdt, a
ale erne
revolution
reformation afforded a pod colour for that
purpose.—( Hear, hear.) How was that Reformation carried
out? In James theFirst's time the Bibles were
ordered to be translated into Irish, and an anecdote
was preserved of a perser, compl!ining, that in the reign of
lauctioni n
F.lizibeth they had English nobles. and Irish ministers • but in
the time of succeeding monarchs, they had Irish nobles and
ministers•—
English ( Laughter). He was prepared to
•men-
tion, on the authority of the very work quoted by the Right
Hon. Baronet the Secretary for Ireland, that there was no
similarity between the Irish and the English Churches. Tha
English Church held its temporalities with the sanction of the
great. body ef the English people. That was not the case with
the Irish Church• existed also a vast difference between
the doctrines of the churches. The work observed that the
religion of the Irish Church was a species of Puritanism
rather than Protestantism. The Church preached a sour
morality quite opposed to the liberal tenets of English
Divines. What was the language of some of the ministers of
the Protestant Church in Ireland ? The Right Rev. Prelate
said that the penal laws were for the benefit of the
Papists.—
( Hearehear. ) What was their conduct towards
the Right lion. Baronet when he brought in his educational
measures? Their language was only worthy of Exeter Hall,
and their exclusive University of Dublin. lie would ask the
House if it bad ever produced one great man, or one eminent
writer ?—(Hear, hear, and cheers.) Perhaps some name
might be given them by the Noble Lord the
Member for Bandon—some little minister eminent
in his little sphere, but one name worthy of note had never yet
emanated from the Dublin University. lie held in his hand a
Government pamphlet, issued from the Government office in
Dublin, and entitled " Probate of Wills," and he would take
the liberty of reading the whole of it to the House, as it was
not very long, to ehow the amount of Church property left by
some of the Church dignitaries within the limited period of
forty or fifty years. lie found, among other facts stated in
it, that the Lord Bishop of Cork left at his deceaoe property to
the amount of ...................................... £25,000
The Bishop of Dromore 50,000 -
The Bishop of Limerick... .................. 60,000
The Bishop of Killaloe lOO,OOO
The Archbishop of Dublin ............... 180,(00
The Bishop of T
uam ..................
The Bishop of Raohoe
300000
The Archbishop of Armagh ....... ,
350 000
The Bishop of Clogher
The Bishop of Cashel

In all an amount of •••••• ••••••• "'£1,935,0
And all this amount, be it: remembered, collected in the
apace of forty or fifty years.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.")
They hadheard various allusions to their not wishing to take the
property from the Protestant Church. He did not believe
that they wished to take it, nor was it his wish that it should
be done, but he wished that that Church should be placed on
a better footing. Dr. Doyle, in an examination; before the
House of Lords, stated that he had a greater respect for the
Established Church than any other Church which differed
from the See of Rome, but that he thought that the property
was as prejudicial to the Established Church as it was to the
Irish people. He remembered the days when a Viceroy
was put in Coventry because he agreed in some matters
with Mr. O'Connell; and now they were sending messages
of peace to Ireland, and dragging at the chariot-wheels of a
convicted eonspirator.—(Cheers. ) He thought that there
were very few Honourable Gentlemen at that or the other side
of the House who would be Inclined to agree with measures
extracted under such conditions. (Hear, hear.) On
a late occasion, when he (Mr. Osborne) had
the honour of addressing the House, it was his
intention to have voted against the Hon. Gentleman's proposi-
tion, not because he objected to the grant, but he objected
that it should be taken out of the consolidated fund, inasmuch
as the people of this country objected to their money being ap-
plied to the objects of the Roman Catholic Church. Ho was
very much shaken in that intention when he heard the speech
of the Hon. Member for Kent, who dealt out damnation to all
his Roman Catholic fellow-countrymen.—(Laughter.) That
was what first altered his opinion. It was succeeded by the
Hon. Member for Elgio, who claimed the hardihood of a sort
of Birmingham Pope—(Laughter)—instead of a Member of
the Senate, and pronounced the religion of three-fourths of
the population of Europe to be an awful delusion. He could
not countenance such a gross insult to the Roman Catholic re-
ligion. He would tell the Ron. Gentleman that it was better to be
Insane in his charity than rational in his malice. He would
refer him to: what was said by Burke, that he that dis-
sented altogether from the Christian religion was most Pro-
'tent. He would put it to any dispassionate Member of the

House, whether his words were not more words of charity than
those which fell from the lion. ,Gentleman's lips ? He
would ask the Hon. Gentleman, supposing that by means of
that collision which existed between the Alembers of the House,
he would say between the extreme voluntaries on his side, anti
the extreme inveluntaries on the other side--(Laughter)—this
Bill had been defeated, he should like to know what kind of a
Government they had reason to expect from the Government
that would spring from such a cminexion—semi-bovemque
virum semi-virumque bovem.—(Laughter.) The Secretary
for the Home Department, in the speech which he made
on a late occasion, did more good in softening
and conciliating the people of Ireland, than any
speech which had been delivered lately.—(Cheers.) The
feelings of this country bad been too subservient to Whig and
Tory.--( Cheers.) He would beg to state to the House that
there would never be an ultimate settlement of the Irish ques-
tion until the Irish Church was, not subverted, but put on a
different footing.—(Cheers. )
Lord BERNARD rose amid great confusion, expressive of a
great disinclination on the part of the House to hear. He was
understood to say that he would not trouble the House at so
late an hour of the evening but for the remarks made by the
Hon. Member who had just sat down. He referred to a state-
ment which he (Lord Bernard) made two years ago. He
wished to be allowed to refer to a speech of the Noble Lord the
Member for Sunderlanel, in which he asked what would be the
fate of the Irish Church, if it were to be determined by
a Parliament existing in Dublin. —( Here the noise became so
great that the Noble Lord, not being able to obtain a hearing,
sat down.)
Air. ELLICE said that he rose to set himself right with th
House, with respect to a statement of. his Right Hon. Friend e
(the Secretary for the Home. Department), in the course of his
speech last night. But before he did so, he wished to say in
a few words that he would give his cordial support to the pre-
sent motion. He should be at some loss to do se, if he thought
that it would in any way interfere with the success of the mea-
sure which the Right Hon. Gentleman had introduced to
the House ; but inasmuch as he should come to that
vote without injuring the progress of that motion, and as he
thought it essential upon this—probably the first step in
a new course of ecclesiastical; policy with the people of
Ireland—to make a protest against making any tax on the people
of England to support any ecclesiastical establishment in Ire-
land, he thought it right, for that reason, to vote for the motion
of his Hon. Friend (Mr. Ward). He need not fatigue the
House by going over the grounds upon which he supported
this motion. These arguments had been so admirably concen-
trated in the speech of the Right Hon. Member for Edinburgh,
and that speech followed by the declamation of his Noble Friend
the Member for the City of London, as well as by the appeal
of the Noble Lord the Member for Sunderland, that the whole
subject had been completely exhausted. Respecting the Irish
Church, against which so powerful a statement had been
made, no answer had ever been attempted in any quarter of the
House. The Government had stated it was impossible to cope
with the opposition of the subject, but they gave no good
reason to the House or the country that they had the least
security in being able to stand where they were.—(Cheers.)
The first step in progressing had been taken, and they must
go onwards let who might occupy the reins of Government.—
( Hear, hear.) He had always during the time he had a seat
in that House, taken a very active part, and a very anxious
interest in the eubject. He was sure that twenty years ago,
since he had seconded a proposal of the Hon. Member for
Middlesex for going into Committee on the Irish Church ;
and he had at that time made the same state-
ments which the Honourable Member for Sheffield
had brought forward. Upon every subsequent debate on this
subject he had pursued the same course, and when he became
a member of the Government, when his Right Hon. Friend
(Sir J. Graham) left the Cabinet, he had avowed the same
opinions, as distinct as language could avow them. He could
not understand in what part of his speech to the House when
the Government of Lord Grey came into power, he had given
utterance to principles different to those on which the present
motion was founded. It might have been that he then stated
that there was no intention OR the part of the Government to
take from the Irish Church the means of forming a Roman
Catholic Establishment in Ireland. They had not arrived at
suilicient information to judge to what purpose or to what
extent they would make an appropriation for the Protestant
revenue of the Church. But when his Right Hon. Friend left
office, a Commission had been issued to overturn the municipal
proportions of the different sects in Ireland, so as to enable the
Government to advise the Crown with respect to practical
measures on this *subject. He forgot the precise statement
then made by his Noble Friend at the head of the Government
(Lord Grey), but he believed that although that Noble Lord
had refused to admit the intentions of the Government to
apply any surplus belonging to the Protestant Church to any
particular object, he maintained the power of the Government
to apply the sum to any such purpose which the Govern-
ment should deem expedient.—( Hear, hear.) With respect
to his own language, he recollected well the debate arising on
the question respecting the settlement of the tithes in Ireland,
brought forward by the present Lord Hatherton, the then
Secretary fur Ireland. In the course which he took on that
occasion he lamented the loss which the Government had
sustained by the retirement of his Right Honourable
Friend (Sir James Graham) and his Noble Friend the present
Secretary for the Colonies. He thought then, as now, that
their retirement, under the circumstances of the case, and on
the principles on which they placed it, were detrimental to the
course of good government and the progress of liberal opinions
with regard to Ireland. The Government then had a large
party in the House. The Irish people were then disposed to
accept conciliatory mea•ures, and if the Government had gone
on in unison as they were in the course of policy in which they
had embarked, a state of affairs would now exist in Ireland
very different from that which they had the misfortune to
witness. In stating his regret at the retirement of his Right
lion. Friend raid of Lord Stanley for office, he used these
terms:—" For what had the sacrifices—(he alluded to the loss
of his two Right Hon. Friends)—been made, but that the
Government might be enabled to act on that principle which
they avowed with respect to the measure before the
House" (it was the Irish tithe question); and upon
some ironical cheers coming from the Opposition
side of the' House, " he scarcely knew how to interpret that
cheer; but if it meant that the Government were not united,
and determined to act consistenily with their declarations; if
there was the least difficulty in the principle of the application
of the surplus revenue of the church of Ireland to the purposes
which had been stated by the Hon. Member for St. Albans,
lie should have been the last man to join the Cabinet." That
was snffic.ent to show that he had never swerved. To the
measure founded on a system of liberality to the people of
Ireland he would give his support, and hoped that system would
be carried steadily forward. To the first step in that progress,
he repeated, he gave his willing and cordial support, protest-
ing with his Hen. Friend against the principle of taking money
for such purposes from other sources than the surplus revenue
of the Irish church, and against the principle of abstracting it
from the taxe. paid by the people of Great Britain.—(Cho ers.)
Mr. E. B. ROCHE said the measure proposed by the Right
Hon. Baronet retarding Alaysooth was a good measure as far
as it went; introduced, he believed, in a good, and honourable,
and kindly spirit—(Cheers)—and for that reason he regretted
that the question of the Protestant Church in Ireland should
have been brought forward on that occasion.—(Cries of
" Hear, hear," from the Ministerial benches.) He regretted
it the more, because urged by old and long-enterta'ned prin-
ciples, he must vote for the motion of the Hon. Gentleman
the Member for Sheffield. He thought the question of the
Irish Church was not so important a question now as it was a
few years ago. It was not regarded by the Irish people
with so much anxiety, because, in the first place, the
question was overlaid in the Irish mind by ;the
more absorbing, and what he believed to be the more important
questioh ; and, in the second place, the people of Ireland had
seen this question of Church reform what they considered trifled
with by parties on that, the Opposition side of the House, be-
fore—(Hear, hear)—and, therefore, they did not believe that
they were sincere in propesino Church reform. He only stated
the general feeling among the Irish people. He would be
wrong in saying the Hon. Member for Sheffield was not sin-
cere. There was no doubt about that. But, at the same time,
the Irish people take up this question with great gpirit,-and lay
it dawn very quietly— ( Hear, from the Ministerial benches)
—and, therefore, io their minds, it was not so important a
question as it had been. He regretted that the question had
been introduced on the present occasion, because he thought it
better that the question should be disposed of by itself. He
did not know whether the Right Honourable Gentleman the
Member for the University of Dublin, and the Noble Lord
( Lord Bernard), were quite satisfied with the aspect which
this question of their Church had taken in that House. lie
(Mr. Roche) regarded it as an abuse. He deplored the ex-
istence of that abuse in his country. It was the Church that had
been a bone of contention between them ; but he regarded it
with most regret as it was the thing of all others which pre-
vented the party which that Noble Lord represented, and
which he (Mr. Roche) represented, from uniting for the cam-
mon good of their common country.—( Cheers.) He put it
to the Noble Lard, and the Right Hon. Gentleman, if they
thought that by remaining in that House, and by keeping
the • question in that House, they would keep the
Church safe as it existed at present. He asked
them to look at the state of parties in England, and consider
whether they were likely to get for that Church very flatter-
ing terms if Hon. Gentlemen on this side of the House should
come into power. Let them well consider this—whether Irish-
men in Ireland could not settle that itnportant question more
equitably for both parties —more permanently, and more
honourably than by coming over to this country, which
the lion. Member for the University of Dublin
admitted in his speech to be a " foreign country."
The Hon. Member for the University, in his argument in
support of the Church in Ireland, said—" Take from us the
Church and you have the support of the party whir.: I repre-
sent ;" which party, said another Hon. Gentleman, was a fo-
reign garrison, existing in a foreign and hostile country. He
confessed he listened with some humiliation when he heard his
fellow-countryman obliged to make such a confession,
Mr. HAMILTON—I said a hostile, not a foreign country.
Mr. ROCHE—The Hon. Gentleman said he did not say
foreign ; and, therefore, he retracted that expression, but still
it was a British garrison existing in a hostile country. Now,
he said this hostility was all on one side, for the prople of Ire-
land did not regard the English party there with hostile feel-
ings. They only regarded their prejudices with hostility, and
perhaps with contempt ; -but they did not regard their fellow-
countrymen in any hostile spirit, and many of them, formins,
a large party in Ireland, hoped that a blessed clay would come,
when they would all be united for the common good of their
common country. But he would turn from that question.
The Right Hon. Baronet, as he had previously admitted, had
brought the question forward in a good and fair spirit ; but let
him remind the Right lion. Baronet, that all the support he
had received from the Opposition side of the House, did not
originate from a sacrifice of party to principle. Honest
men supported that motion because it was just ; men who were
not honest supported it because it was expedient. He heard
in this country, among the lower grade of the Whig party,
murmurs and reports of a coalition. He found them in-
dulging in the pleasing dreams of one day seeing the Noble
Lord the Member for the City of London, and the Right Hon.
Baronet, the First Lord of the Treasury hob-nobbing at a
Cabinet dinner. What a scene it would be for that talented
gentleman, who styled himself the historical painter' of the
House of Commons. He would have the old story of
Antony and Octavius dividing the empire amongst their
fellows. But did they suppose Ireland would acquiese in
this course? Did they think Ireland would be contented with
this paltry bribe to sacrifice the cause in which she had em-
barked? Now he told the Right Honourable Baronet
in a candid spirit, that such would not be the case.
They %mild not be able to quiet Ireland by this single mea-
sure—no, they must give ample and full justice.
,Ireland was
embarked in a cause which she thought was just and good, and
they believed they were entitled to a domestic Legislature.
He knew perfectly well that he was vainly attempting to advo-
cate a cause whi la had no friends in that House ; he trusted
that Hon. Members would permit him to tell them, that their
attempting to treat with an individual would not satisfy Ire-
land. They must recollect that lately a body of men had
sprung up in Ireland, who commanded the con&
deuce of the people of Ireland, and who would
not be satisfied with this measure. Ilovv were
thesementialled into existence? Why their existence was de-
rived from a certain declaration which a Lord-Lieutenant made
with regard to repeal in Ireland. That person proscribed any
one entertaining repeal opinions, and declared that they,were
to be excluded from office. To say the least of it, be thoughtt
this was an unworthy declaration. It was as much as
otosalle
" I believe you. are to be bought, and if you. are.
hwl the m-
biiught, here is my price." But these men y
polities .of the people with them, and he said again
they must have something more than this measure before
they would be satisfied. He was not going at that late hour to
enter at any length into this question, but if Government had
any wish that it should be settled peacefully and amicably, they

must enter upon the consideration of it at once, but he could
assure them that nothing short of what he had stated would
satisfy Ireland.
Lord PALMERSTON did not intend to go into the ex-
traneous topics which hail been introduced in the course of the
debate—" sufficient for the debate was the question thereof."
If his lion. 'Friend had brought forward his motion under the
circumstances, and in the same circumstances in which he first
gave notice, he should have felt it to be his duty
to vote against it, unwilling as he had been to
take any step which could by any remote possibility
have impeded the Government Bill, which, to a certain extent,
had been carried ; but the course which the Right lion.
Gentleman bad since taken, had enabled him (Lord Palmer-
ston) to give the motion his support. The question the Hon.
Member had now brought forward was this, Whether there was
not another fund from which the grant proposed by this Bill
could not be supplied? The Hon. Member had originally
asked why should not the grant be takea from the Consolidated
Fund ; but he had altered his motion, and he now
asked, why not procure it from the funds crea-
ted by the reduction of the Irish Church establishment ?
He ( Lord Palmerston) would have voted for the motion for
supplying the grant from the Consolidated Fund, if he had
persevered in it ; but he (Lord Palmerston) would prefer that
this money should be taken from the other source, and there-
fore he would give his vote in favour of that proposition. The
first question the House had to consider was, could there be a
surplus of Church funds sufficient to meet this demand, after
providing what was necessary for the support of the Protestant
Church established in Ireland ?—( Hear, hear.) He did think
that no person, who had heard the statements made upon
that subject, but would feel satisfied that ample funds would
still remain for the proposed measure, after providing in the
most ample manner for the Protestant Church.—( Hear.)
Then, he would ask,,had this house authorised the Govern-
me, tto make this grant? He should say that no Member,
who had voted for the Church Temporalities Act, could dio-
rite that the House had that power. The resources
of the Church, it had been admitted, were at the
disposal of the State, who held them in trust for certain uses ;
if that were so, then, he would contend for it, that those who
had brought in the Church Temporalities Bill should make
such use of this surplus fund as it was quite apparent it was
intended for. On those grounds, then, he would vote for the
endowment of the College of Maynooth out of this fund.—
( Hear' hear.) He knew he would be met by the statement
that this would be going a step beyond the appropriation
clause, and that granting a sum for education in Maynooth
from this source would be granting money for the exclusive
education of Roman Catholics. But he contended that the
Church Temporalities Bill did not repudiate such an applica-
tion of the funds, for they were intended for the purposes of
general education of the Irish people,, the great majority of
whom were Roman Catholics. If, then, it should be found that
the Established Church did not require the'aps lication of the
whole of those resources, then he would feel no difficulty what-
ever in applying them to aid the religious instruction of the
people of Ireland.—( Cheers.) In Ireland there were eight
millions of people, of whom seven millions were Roman Ca-
tholics. In Ireland there was a large Church establishment,
which educated about one-half of the Protestants of that coun-
try, and the State paid, by a grant, for the religious instruction
of the ether half; and was it then possible that this House
could contemplate six and a half millions of the poorest portion
of the people of that country reviving religious instruction
from their clergymen, who were dependent for their support
upon what they received by going from door to door, and from
farm to farm, to collect the means of eseetence?—( Hear, hear.)
Whatever might be the result of this discussion, depend upon
it, this country would be compelled, sooner or later, to adopt
some such measure.—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear.")
For a long while party prejudices would not permit this ques-
tion to be brought forward ; in the meantime it had been
freely discussed outside, and at length the force of argument
had become so strong as to produce a react ion, and then the
Government came forward with their measure ; but they came
when the time had gone by—they came forward when their
spontaneous offering appeared not what it was, but as a sur-
render to fear, which he was sorry to see, and which he felt
assured the Right HAn. Baronet opposite (Sir R. Peel) did
not intend.—( Hear, hear.) However, he did hope that this
impression would not have the effect of deterring the Govern •
ment from the path they had resolved on to pursue, in regard
to the prosecution of other means of conciliation which he be-
lieved they had in contemplation. —( Hear, hear.) There were
many other questions of a conciliatory character to Ireland
which he hoped to see brought forward, and the carrying out of
which would soon prevent the use of such expressions as " a
hostile nation" applied to England.—(Cheers.) But if the
Government imagined that this alone would be sufficient to ac-
complish perfect tranquillity in Ireland, they would find their
mistake, for there this would be looked upon as a measure
yielded to fear, and not elicited by conviction.—( Cheers.)
Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT—Sir, I mean to say a few
words before the debate closes, and they shall be very short. I
shall not enter into the question of the Protestant Church
Establishment, and I will make no further allusion even to the
motion the Hon. Member for Sheffield has brought forward
than to say that I deeply regret that this question should have
been brought forward now—first, because I think that it will
be little understood ie Ireland, and next, that it is introducing
for discussion between the leading parties of this House abstract
principles which have no reference to the measure before the
House, .any also because the only influence of this motion, if
successful, must be, of course, to destroy -the measure before
the House. I should have thought this system of introducing
the assertion of principles into the discussion of particular mea-
sures had already led to so much inconvenience in the hands
of the Honourable Gentleman himself, that he would
have been the last person to have proposed such
a course; Look to that measure which was admitted on both
sides of the House to have been of paramount necessity for
the tranquillisation of Ireland—the nesure, fur the settlement
of the tithe question. Look to the annual attempts that were
made to introduce that suicidal clause, which long delayed the
settlement of that question. Bus, Sir, I have risen on this
occasion more especially to call the attention of the House to
the statement which was made last evening and repeated again
to-night, in spite of the emphatic contradiction given to it by
.my Right Hon. Friend, namely, that this measure had been
brought forward, not from any sense of justice, not from any
preconceived opinion as to its fitness for the state
of Ireland, or the effect it might have on
the tranquillisation of that country, but that it had
been extracted by fear and alarm, created by the Oregon
question.—(Cheers.) Sir, I think it was shown by dates last
night that this measure was contemplated—nay, more, that it
was already put into shape long before the question arose re-
specting the Oregon territory.— (Cheers.) It was announced
long before any suspicion was excited in this country with
regard to the territorial boundary of North America, or that
any rup'ure was feared. It was stated further that the Bill
had been actually drawn, and Roman Catholic prelates con-
sulted so far back as November last. Nay, I may say more.
During the last session, when the discussion took place on
the vote for education, and likewise for the grant
to Maynooth, on the introduction of the subject
the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Waterford (Mr.
Wyse) called the attention of the Government to academical
education in Ireland, and my Right Hon. Friend at the head
of the Governmennt, in answer to that speech, said the subject
had already been under the consideration of the Goverment ;
that only the lateness of the session, and his unwillingness to
bring on so important a measure fur the prosperity of Ireland,
had prevented them bringing forward the measure. I can go
back to a still higher slate because a communication was made
to me by the Government on the subject of this measure. I
ray, therefore, that nothing can be more contrary to the fact
than that any unworthy motive had actuated the Government
—a motive, I think, disgraceful to the character of her Ma-
jesty's Government, and one which 1 am anxious to
repel, not only because I think it would produce
a most unfavourable impression as to the character
and con luet of the Government, but would greatly diminish the
good effects to be anticipated from this measure. I very much
regret that the Right lion. Gentleman the Member for Edin-
burgh, forgetful of all these facts, has studiously tried to fix
this imputation on the Government. I regret this much, be-
cause it appeared to me that the Right lion. C.:gentleman was
thinking less of the benefits this measure might produce in
Ireland, than of the degree of party strife it might cause.—
( Cheers, and counter-cheers.) I perfectly understand those
cheers, but, I must say, that I drax a great distinction between
the course the Whig party has pursued on this occasion, and
that which they formerly pursued. I am as willing as any
man to acknowledge any disinterested support of theGovern-
merit. I must say, however, that the Right Hon. Gentleman
the Member for Edinburgh has taken a course
diametrically opposite to that which was taken by
the Noble Lord, and has endeavoured studiously to flit a
charge of inconsistency on the Government, and in such a
manner as might be calculated to injure the success of this
measure in Ireland. Let it go forth to Ireland that this mea-
sure has been extorted by fear, and all its advantages wib be
lost. If through that cause the measure should be ineffective
for tranquillising Ireland, the responsibility will be with the
Right Hon. Gentleman. lf, on the contrary, the anticipa-
tion of her Majesty's Government shall be realised—if the,
measure does produce tranquillity—if it should have the
effect of attaching the feelings of the Roman Catholic priest-
hood—if it does carry out the views of her Majesty's Go-
vernment, then the Right Hon. Gentleman will have thi s
consolation, that it was not for want of his opposition that

the measure had not failed in tranquillising Ireland.—( Hear. )
I allude to this .because I think we ought not to admit the
claims of the frequenters of Conciliation Hall in the success of
this measure. 1 have already stated that this measure was
first announced in answer to a speech of the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman the Member for Waterford, and that it has arisen from
no sudden external cause whatever. This measure is to be
attribu'ed to those gentlemen in Ireland, and those Roman
Catholic prelates, who not fearing the consequences, and ex-
posing themselves to great obloquy, and great misrepresenta-
tion, and great abuse, no,.ily.stayed aloot from agitation and
refused to have any partnership in measures which
they dissappraved of. The Government were determined to
bring forward this measure, not as a bribe, not as a concession,
but as a measure which they believed to be right—and they
bring it forward because they believe it to be right, arid because
they believe and know that there are Roman Catholic Gentle-
men, and Roman Catholic prelates, who are most anxious to
give their influence in promoting the prosperity and good
order of Ireland.—( Cheers.) I undertook to say as few words
as possible. I was anxious to vindicate the Government from
this charge which has been made against them—to vindicate
them from the charge of inconsistency in bringing
forward this measure, a measure which they supported when
in Opposition, and which they now carry out when in office ;
and I was anxious, likewise, to vindicate them from the impu-
tation of this measure having been extorted from them by
menace and fear, and by the dread of a hostile foreign country.
It was a sense oijustice which prompted them to put it forward,
and I beg the House to recollect, that when agitation was ripe in
Ireland,that was not the moment the Government chose for bring-
ing, this measure forward. It was after the law had vindicated
itself, and a comparative state of tranquillity had been established
that they did feel it their duty, in conformity with their declara-
tion, that they would govern Ireland with impartiality, justice, and
conciliation, to bring forward this measure in redemption of
that pledge, and I trust that it will be received in Ireland in
the same spirit in which it has been conceived, and whatever
thrers the Government may receive from Exeter-Hall, or
from the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Edinburgh,
neither oae nor the other will deter the Government from pur..
suing that course which they conscientiously feel to be neces-
sary for the tranquillity of Ireland.—( Cheers. )
Sir H. W. BARRON rose amidst loud cries of " Oh, oh !"
"divide, divide." He said he would not detain the House for
many moments at that late hour of the night—but being the
only Catholic Member from Ireland who had risen during the pre-
ibilt debate, he was anxious to explain the reasons upon which
he would give his vete ; and he trusted the House would ex-
tend its indulgence to him while doing so.—( Hear, hear.)
He bad always been an open, firm, decided, and manly oppo•
nent of the present Government; but when he saw them
changing the principles upon which they acted
when in Opposition, he tendered them his own
thanks, and the thanks of his constituents. Seeing the
spirit in which the Government were disposed to act towards
Ireland, he could not consistently vote for the motion of his
Hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield. —( Hear.) He thought
it would be gross ingratitude towards the Government, if he
welt to vote for the motion. That motion was most inoppor-
tune and ill-timed, and taken in connexion with the measure of
the Government, he could not conscientiously support it. He
would not answer the taunts and abuse which had been cast
upon the Roman
.Catholics by petitions and speeches in that
House. They exhibited little of charity or religion. He was
glad that in the meetings held" in Ireland, no such calunmious
or abusive language was heard. If the Right Hon. Baronet
followed up the measure for the endowment of Maynooth by
other measures, he would find that no part of the British do-
minions might be more easily governed than Ireland.—(Hear.)

_sd
Mr. HINDLEY rose amidst loud cries of "
" Oh, oh." lie could assure the House lie did not 1.1, of
make a speech.— ( Hear, hear.) lie rose for the purPesss..
asking whether a division would take place on the first Fruit
poa
tion the Speaker would put fro n the chair, and whether,toini,
voted against the proposition, looking at it in its siniele tees al
and supposing that he was determinedly hostile to the msn,o-
Bid, whether he was bound to give a negative to the Pr°r-
tion that the Speaker do leave the chair ?
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the motion l4B
Against it
Majority against the motion ......
On our being re-admitted to the gallery, we found
in
Sir R. H. INGLIS on his legs addressing the He
answe
R.r to
PEEL questisaidon from
that it whowas•his wish that they sum, s.e old ge
Sir c.
into Committee, and that the Chairman should report Presir„
osis
Of course they would go into Committee again to-taarrlsotcli
day), after he had made his statement with respect t° line of
banking. He was most anxious to give a general
°lOttiSit
that measure, in fulfilment of a pledge given to th? doss
Members wile were interested in the question. If that of the
skin on that statement were not prolonged the suiSP-
Maynooth grant might be taken afterwards.
Sir R. H. INGLIS thought Monday the better dal% nine
Sir R. PEEL was of opinion that as they had alreal they
days' debate upon the subject, it would be better disci „
should get through the subject as soon as possible. lieLoar
the circumstances he should feel it his duty to bring the -
forward to-morrow. ss, same
Colonel t^IBT HO RP—Although he 'had voted in h.:4 re-
lobby with the Right Hon. Baronet, did not do so ou`s`re did
spent to the Right lion. Baronet or to his measures. '
not like the principle of expediency on which the WO
Baronet seemed to found his measures. subject
Mr. HUME would wish to say a few words on the Ai•d not
of Scotch banking, when brought on tomorrow'bu""after-
object to the Maynooth question being proceeded wit'
wards.
Sir ROBERT PEEL said he would not bring forward tbe
Maynoeth question after nine o'clock.—( Hear, hear.) until
Mr. LA W thought they should not proceed with it it to
Monday, and begged of the Government to poste°
that day. hol
Sir R. PEEL declined acceding to the proposal ;4-eor
been asked not to brine. it on after nine o'clock, and ",fione.
genial, but he would' not consent to a greater Peil'
ment.—(Cheers.)
Lord NORTHLAND protested against any factious();
sition being given to the Government—he would not k°
self to it. • ht se
Mr. C. WOOD thought the measure might be hrollgis bo
to-morrow after the Scotch banking question, vrhidi so °5OlO
only, as on former occasions, a mere outline by a Melchor°
Government. t
Sir R. INGLIS had understood that the Governoseepior
consented to postpone the further progress of the Bill tits'
day, after the House going into Committee pro for,"--, coo
night.—( No, no.) A strong feeling prevailed oat of au'as
the question, and he hoped the Government would cow'
postponing it to that day. sin
Mr. PLUMPTRE denied that any factious opros1"--whisP
been raised. In consequence of the rapid movenseati ,00tto
had already been made, it would' e more preferable to Pas's Os
the sitting of the Committee on the Bill to ilext Moodal'itiois
at the same time repudiated anything like factious °Pr'
as far as he was concerned. iny
.tbit
Lord J. RUSSELL did not think that there was -,104 oil
like fictions opposition displayed ; the Bill had been es'opfot
as fairly as possible.—(Hear, hear.) As he did riot doe
that a long discussion would arise on it ; he sotslid
that they should go into Committee to-morrow. sset tlw
Lord NORTHLAND having stated that he only tits-
he would be no party to factious opposition,"arid t"
The House went into Committee, pro forums'
Speaker got leave to sit to-morrow in Committee. , ,
TliE INFEFTMENT (SCOTLAND) BII"'".
This Bill was read a third time and passed. sa of, the
The other orders of the day having been dispos
House adjourned at One o'Clock.
11°
MR. LANGFORD'S ADDRESS
THE SUB-AGENTS OF KENT- nritisit
GENTLEMEN—As Messrs. Morison, of the leased
College of Health, New-road, London, have been P „Stet'
to appoint me their general agent for North JOn'ilbeir
residing ten years in Strood as agent for the sale ig
aa
valuable medicine, you will expectme to saysoraett.,oo.
the subject. 1 have had to contend with a host 0,11 je
inks, euch as chemists, doctors, &c., all interess of
keeping the truth from the people, and the?,.l7b'eo'll,
course, poured forth a torrent of abuse against alas
of Mr. Morison, viz.:—that an impurity in than
is the cause of all diseases ; that such it»puritY casat
be eradicated by proper vegetable purgation ; •foe
human being or animal body has too much blooosei "and
that it is much more agreeable to nature to clean Pre°,
purify in the proper way, than to take tvaY,,t 003,1'
cious stream of life by the Linea—thus at once uce„„,
ib
our own doctors. Such a theory no doubt cuts
I"iraters
trade of the doctor I I Of late years a host of worlOs
have sprung up, who have pirated Mr. Morison s
called)
and under his theory have pushed forth their Wd jpe:
valuable medicines, but the greatest humbug 311ket
sition of all is cc Parr's Life Pills," since it is tt j"- rofe'
Parr never made a pill in his life, and it cars be
that he could neither read nor write, and Ilevervut the
will, having nothing to leave; so that the storY er frol
Clergyman finding his will is all a lie and forgeb)s4a
beginning to end, and 'would never have heei!s c"
but for Munson.i Examine the sellers of porobug. As
this point, and you will at once find out the lit efts give
regards regards the efficacy of the Ilygeian medicin who
reference to persons in my own eeighboulb°° 'hos bet'
taken them with the best results. So various wore',
the cases, and some of them of that desPerte,olictet::
that from my experience I would say to the t )'°'
il
° never despair, though given up by doctors, jo
have given Morison's Pills a fair trial." I intvi"' osa
short time to publish a list of cases of cure in sin
neighbourhood, and if you, as agents, can forwar“,"-
this work of humanity ('Or we are all interested °oil
great question), by sending me any cases of cure, of,
shall be inserted with mine.—Yours, most respec‘r°

JOHN LANGFOIW'
General Ilygeian Agent, Stu°
od

°IlAt
JONATHAN SHARP.—In the present stab° °f or.
relations with America, any work wh'cli should tLicees,
us an insight into the true character of the I,'' ;
from unquestionable sources, must be vary de',`ll:l,ida
and this, we have heard, has been done after`
that cannot fail of producing great effect in this eu,bao
in a new publication bearing the title of Ji);:rr-ittee
Sharp ; or, the Adventures of a Kentuckian. '
by Himself." Report speaks of this narrative aght,
tN
veying the most extraordinary picture ever hreug.totr
fora the English pliblic of the recklessness andl4 the
dente of Brother Jonathan, especially as regar,,T, the
state of affairs in Texas, the proced.ings
Mexicans, with the Indians,' and other interer,
titulars illustrative of things as they are throug"tZ eri'
States. As these revelations proced frorn 'fthei
can, they are of course from good authority ; an 04
are said to comprise a series of adventures a)hero01'
that "Jonathan Sharp" has every probability of ,iIrl"
ing as popular a character as his distinguished °-
man " Sam Slick." AO:
M. TRIERS' HISTORY OF THE CONSUtr".l!Orittil'e",
EMPIRS OF FRANCE.—The Third Volume of
Campbell's authorised English Translation of b-1415,1Pcb
portant Sequel to M. Thiers' " History of the f-eviei
Revolut:on, ' haljust appeared. The Vines, i° ";-00
ing this work, observes that " The Publiclitilail
M. 'rhicrs' History of the Consulate and the
Is an event of an interest not confined to the r'rethla
e-
iterature. The charms of so facile a style, the the;
of Lo lucid a narrative; and the abundtince of it';tiv,el.'
tm and hitherto unexplored materials, place o'3lolo'
amongst And if
the most important productions of i'ut,cos,sl.
the policy, the glory, and the evil of the, to thie
late and Empire are here deliberately subjecVa
judgment of the" sparld, perhaps the future Pc.sl;-10:6
prosperity of Europe depend on the spirit on whit OP'
past transactions are reprobated or applae• 111 v
tared or condemned." The sale of this work,' 3,0
derstand, has been truly extraordinary in 1.1413411ta its
well as in France. What has no dbt, intro Ern
in this country is the circumstanceu of thellls
lish Authorised Translation bein •published at c" I 10
shillings per volume, each containing matter -eq:bileslr
500 st a
ordinary Bvo. pages; thus forming one of the -.it°
ea
t, as well as most important works ever preSeatLL
the British public. de'
a c -
;0

Spring with its effects on the complexion
stitution generally.—The system of every Per-btlit
more or less affected at this period of the yeE41.,',., to A,-
obviate these seeming natural accompaninien"" study
climate like our own, has been a subject f,.°l: vh)"•,-
hitherto unfathomed by even our most el:1141'4i"; beec
clans and practitioners. An article has, howe're-;a311,
recently imported into this country from Claintt:pr fole
fast gaining celebrity, which proves to be a
ins obviate to
_cutaneous afflictions generaliPs only„.'
substance is a white powder prepared front he Chines"
of a most harmless nature, and is Called by't-,e,„,0 vi,)„
" Meen Fun" or Celestial Skin Powder. ce
have not yet experienced the comfort of its app- 000
should do so without delay, In addition t".;tli,che 4‘„til
inestimable qualities, it will be found to render. al
bf
delicately white, smooth, ar d soft. Sold ret3l;.a. et,c"'
perfumers and, chemists, in boxes 3s. 6d. and "11
and wholesale by the sole proprietors, Fabian ,111„(01011'
(late Watson, Fabian, and Co.), 24, Mark lane, -";11i0e.
without whose signatures on the label none arc geintitty'
THE ROTUNDA.—After undergoing magY.,„.oo,°:;
tions, this building, in the Blackfriars-road, celebratedlatctf
sion as the Surrey Library, Leverian MuseuMs: and more
ut to
the scene of the blasphemies of Carlile and Taylor, IS rv/01'
opened as a branch of the Government school bodesign
House.

. —
,i
. .
BIRTHS. "
On the 22d inst., Mrs. T. K. Kingdorb.,_ of Acacia-4°a 1,
John's-wood, of a son. - tell'
~ #e,,
On the 22d inst., the wired Andrew Murray, -(l,,diat
wich- common, prematurely of a son, which died inigt" .
Ve-
after birth. ~
On the 23d inst., at Rochfort Villa, Gloucester-04'
0'
gent's-park, Mrs. R. J. S. Todd, of a sein.' wif° o 1
On the 22d inst., at St. John's-wobtl-road, the .
Phillips, Esq., of a son