The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-12 00:00:00

AIR. WARD'S MOTION.

Mr. WARD said he had to thank the Speaker for the kind
intimation which he had given him in the course of the morn-
ing, as to the form in which he might bring forward his motion
without inconvenience or irregularity. He should. therefore,
in accordance with that intimation, move, upon the question
that the House go into Committre upri the Bill, that it be an
instruction to the Committee, that any provision for the par-
po-es of the Bill should be supplied out of the fowls already
applicable to ecclesiastical purposes in Ireland.
THE LATE ACCIDENT AT BOX TUNNELL.

Lord DUNCAN wished to ask a question from the lion.
Member for Reading (Mr. Russell) as to the late accident at
the Box Tunnell, on the Great Western Railway. It was
stated in the public press tat a quantity of earth and stone
had fallen in and obstructed the passage of the mail. Ile
wished to ask whether any measures had been taken to pre-
vent the recurrence of such an accident in future ?

Mr. lIUStELL said that the best answer to a question of so
much importance to the public and to the Company would be
to read the report of the Company's engineer. (The Hon.
Gentleman then read the report, but in so low and indistinct
a tone, that we could not catch the leading points.) The acci-
dent on the Bo: Tunnel Wiis owing to the severe frost and such
occurrences were more unfrequent in tunnels than in any
other places. He hoped the statement he had made would be
satisfactory. He could assure the Noble Lord that every
c a.e and attention was paid to the Tunnel, which was as safe as
the roof of that House.--(Great laughter. )
NEW ZEALAND.

On the motion that the order of the day for the second read-
ing of the Ma'nooth Colleg? Grant be read,
Mr. C. BULLER asked if the Government were prepared
to lay en the table of the House the papers relating to New
Zealand of which he had given notice.
Mr. HOPE said the documents in question or extracts from
there, as the Hon. and Learned Member wished, would be
printed and laid on the table in a few days.
THE GRANT TO MAYNOOTH.

On the order of the day for the second reading of this Bill
being read,
Mr. COLQUHOUN said he wished to ask a question of
the Noble Lord opposite (Lord John Russell). That Noble
Lord was one of these Members of the Opposition who pos-
sessed great influence in the House, particularly when he rose
to express his opinions upon Irish subjects. When the Noble
Lord held office and occupied a place on the Treasury benches,
he advocated many measures which were invariably neutra-
lised by the weight of opinion on the other side, but when
a question in reference to the Irish Church was introduced
by the Noble Lord, the Honourable Member for
Sheffield accused him of deserting his principles ; yet, strange
to say, that in all discussions upon such questions—no matter
what party were in office—the Oppositien always appeared to
have the power of deciding. When the Hon. Member for
Sheffield occupied a seat on that side of the House, he was
remarkably inert in expressing his opinions upon the question
of academical education. It seemed to be the law of their
political existence, since the passing of the Reform Act, that it
was not the Government with their large majority that carried
their measures, but those who were opposed to them. He
besought the Noble Lord opposite to consider well the responsi-
bility under which he was acting. He besought that Noble
Lord to reflect well upon the advice he was about to give
upon the subject of the Irish Church ' • to reflect upon it as it he
were sitting in the Cabinet, with all the responsibility
not :of office, but of opposition. Agreeing generally in the
foreign policy of her Majesty's Government, he entirely agreed
with what the Noble Lord had said on the Oregon question,
but he disagreed with him entirely on this question of the Irish
Church. He also wished to make an earnest appeal to the
Hon. Member for Montrose and to the Hon. Member for
Sheffield. Those Hon. Members entertained opinions on the
Irish Church which were perfectly different from those which
he entertained, but it was evident they could not agree with
the Noble Lord. He entreated the Hon. Member for Mon-
trose to return to the seat which he formerly occupied on his
( Mr. Colquhoun's) side of thee House; and he besought the
Hon. Member for Sheffield to join him. Let them not be
alarmed by the name of Conservative—there was nothing to
occasion alarm in it.—( Cheers.) It was a name without a
notion.—(Opposition cheers.) Not only was it treading on
the heels of Radicalism—it was treading on the very toes of
Radicalism.—( Cheers.) Nay, in many instances, it was going
further than Radicalism—( Renewed Opposition cheering)—
and in all eases it was gaining on Radicalism at a very rapid
pace.—(Continued Opposition cheering.) He should certainly
resort to every means in his power to oppose the progress of
this Bill.—(dear, hear.) He would appeal to the House
whether he had, ever since he had had the honour of a seat
in that House, been guilty of anything like a factious opposi-
tion, but when a measure of such importance as this was
pressed forward in such a hasty manner, without giving time
for its consideration, lee felt himself called upon as a member
of the minor its', to exercise those rights with which a minority
was inveved, and which never could be exercised with
greater temperance than they had been by him.—( Hear.)
he character of the measure brought forward on the subject
of Maynooth was of such a nature that he could not help
thinking a more inadequate and injurious measure could not be
brought forward. With regard to endowment, he thought
there was great good sense in what had fallen from the Noble
Lord the Member for Liverpool the other night,
that they ought to take care not to stretch the principle of
the majority binding the minority too far; for, in that case,
they would not endow the Roman Catholic religion in Canada
and Malta, though it would not be possible for them to retain
those colonies if they carried out that principle.—(" Hear,
hear," from the Opposition.) Yes ; be fully admitted that ;
but there was another principle that they ought rot to carry
out—that doctrine where it militated against the broad and
fundamental principles of morality and the Christian religion,
otherwise they would have no right to interfere with the Suttees
of India, or the practices of the inhabitants of New Zealand.
It was once remarked of Napoleon that he was an honorary
member of all religions ; that he was a Mahomedan in Egypt,
and a Jew arid Roman Catholic whenever it suited his purpose;
but that was not a principle on which a Christian state
ought to act. He thus disposed of the question of conscience
with regard to the question of compact, he thought the
Right Hon. Gentlemen had entirely misapprehended it. It was
true that the Irish Parliament left to the Roman Catholics the
power of endowing a college of their cwn, and if they refused
them that liberty, he should think worse of the Irish Parlia-
ment than ever he did. But when it was proposed to make the
grant to Maynooth a permanent instead of an annual grant, the
Irish Parliament refused to do so by a vast majority. It could
not, therefore, be successfully maintained that there was any
compact. But to go from the high vantage ground which he
might take, and to look upon this question as a merely political
one, he would refer to the objects of Mr. Pitt, who founded
Maynooth. Lord Castlereagh, who carriedt sa Union, and
who was well acquainted with the object of Mr. Pitt, said, in
1810, that it was not his wish that there should not be Roman
Catholics—that they might continue to be sincere ; but that
his wish was to make them liberal Roman Catholics, connecting
themselves with their own Government for the benefit and the
mutual advantage of all, to the exclusion of all foreign influence.
Well, what was the effect now that Maynooth had been in
existence fifty years? It was a remarkable fact that when
the repeal was agitated, a few years ago, almost all the ecclesi-
astics educated at Maynooth, with scarcely a single
exception, were violent agitators of that measure. The
Honourable Member for Waterford, in speaking of
the Roman Catholic Association, said that Maynooth
began to be felt, and from the exclusive rature of the education
in Maynooth it could scarcely be otherwise. If a college were
established on the banks of the Isis, in which ari exclusive sys-
tem of education was pursued, from which the entrance of pub-
lic opinion was repelled, where there was no intercourse with
persons who were to occupy stations in the general relations of
society, where there were no young men educated for the law
or other learned professions, he was sure that the result of such
a system would be that it would be impossible to maintain the
connexion between Church and State for six years. Then
when they came out into the world, they were in a great degree
cut off from society by the system of celibacy ; they were men
who were filled with arrogant and intolerant views of their own
importance, and they thought that all others were bound to
obey their behests. That was the natural consequence that
might be expected from the education pursued at INlaynooth.—
( Hear, hear.) Allusion had been made to the difference
in the character of the priests who were educated
abroad and those who were educated at Maynooth. He had
lately received a letter from a gentleman who held office under
the present Government in the constabulary force. He said
that he never heard the subject of the priesthood mentioned,
without its being universally considered of the priesthood edu-
cated abroad and those educated at Maynooth—that the former
were well disposed and peaceable, the latter turbulent, assum-
ing a political character hostile to English connexion. The
Hon. Gentleman then quoted a leter which appeared in the
Morning Chronicle, signed " Phililathes," in which the
writer said that the Rorr an Catholic priesthood had entered
into the repeal movement in the worst—that was to say, the
rebellious spirit. When the subject of education in Prussia
was mentioned, the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for
Dungarvon and the Right Hon. Member for Waterford cheered ;
but those Right Hon. Gentlemen ought to know that the system
of education pursued in Prussia was very different from that
which was pursued at Rome. His Hon. Friend the Member
for Pontefract, the same night, advocated the Roman Catholic
system of education ; but he had the highest authority—that of
the Prussian Minister now in this country, respecting the dif-
ference which existed in the Roman and Prussian systems. He
said the system which prevailed in Rome was this :—A person
was taken at seven years of age and placed in an ecclesiastical
seminary, where he he was educated apart from the society of
others of the ecclesiastical profession. The consequence was
that they came out into the world very illiterate and extremely
intolerant; and however such a system might be suited
to
Italy, he hoped it would never find favour in this country.
On the other hand, under the Germanic system, the State
took the boy at the age of seven years, when he was brought
up with others intended for wordly pursuits, by which his
manners were refined and his opinions moderated. He con-
tinued there till the age of twenty-one, when lie was
placed in an ecclesiastical seminary, where he was
educated precisely as they were educated at Maynooth.
Prussia was a country composed of Catholics and Protestants,
but it was well known that the Germanic character pervaded
the
whole, and what was the consequence? Why,
this, that
when t
when the Archbishop of Cologne attempted to enforce
n
Prussia some of those intolerant measures which were ad-
mitted to exist in Ireland, lie was met. by the most strenuous
and determined opposition. In Ireland it was well known that
the Roman Catholic priests were the most assiduous fomentors
and promoters of the repeal agitation. Yet, strange to say,
the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of her Majesty's Go-
vernment had proposed to the House a measure, by which
would be kept up the system of education that those priests re-
ceived. Now, he would adduce a stronger argument in favour
of his position than the evidence of a Roman Catholic, a Mr.
M'Kenna, who had declared that the system of education at
Maynooth; was a highly vicious system. The reason that
none but men of the lower classes of society entered that Col-
lege as candidates for any of the professorships was, because
of the smallness of the salaries; yet the Right Honourable
Baronet's proposition did not propose to remedy that

Al:.! ibiA WSi aL.ichoi, idtr; A.if.ctlz'allY ut
the Prussian Cathilie Colleges, because men of the highest
classes of society received their education there. Let him ask
what Catholic gentleman in Ireland would end his son to
Maynooth to receive his education? Such a thing was un-
heard of.

Sir J. GRAHAM said the Hop. Member had better stick
to facts.

coLQUTHOUN—WcII, let him remind the Right
lion. liarenet that the Professor of Mathematics in May /meth
College, when he %vas examined before a Committee of that
House, declared, in answer to a 'tees:tit/In that he did not
know that there was a sixtli book of Etrelirl.—( Laughter. )
Ilobourable Members argued that by paying; professors well in
Maynooth good professors would be had, and others had stated
that the reason they were called upon to grant this additional
sum of 23,0 01. gas for this purpose; but he begged to tell
them that they would pay the meney for no other certainty
than the certainty of not getting such persons.—( Laughter. )
The only men on whom they could calculate were
those who had promulgated the asceticism and se-
verity of the Roman Catholic priests, and who would
send forth men who would foster no other doctrines
in the country. On these grounds he begged to say he would
give the proposition of the Right Hon. Baronet his most
strenuous opposition. Before he sat down he beeeetl to re-
turn thanks to tin, Hon. Member for Sheffield (Mm. Ward) for
having had the courtesy to send him notice yesterday of his
intention not to bring on his motion to-day.
Mr. GROGAN said he intended to give the measure of
the Right Hon. Baronet his strongest opposition. A great
number of petitions had been presented from the city he repre-
sented, and that city, from its contiguity to Maynooth, might be
said to know something of the results of the system of educa-
tion pursued at Maynooth. lie did not think the Right Hon.
Baronet had made out any ease whatever calculated to con-
vince this House or the country that he was warranted in
bringing forward such a proposition, for he had not
shown that it was based either on compact or ex-
pediency. In the year 1795, when this grant ori-
ginated, it was riot intended to ha continued,
because in the Act of Union there was a stipulation, providing
for the continuation for tv enty years subsequently of grants
made to charitable institutions then in existence, or that had
been in existence for six years previously, and therefore it was
clear that it was intended to exclude Maynooth, because May-
'tooth had been in existence five years previously. Then there
was the evidence of Dr. Crolly, before a Committee of the
House, who stated that he believed that the increased grant of
13,006/. made in the year 1810, was not, in his opinion, a
grant for the establishing, but in order to meet expenses in-
curred by additional buildings. He did not mean to speak
disparagingly of the Roman Catholic priests ; on the con-
trary, he was willing to extend to' them the highest
praise for the manner in which they had exerted themselves
for the preservation of life and property during the
agitation that convulsed Ireland two years ago.—( Hear. )
(The Hon. Gentleman then read extracts from a speech of Mr
O'Connell's, showing the difference between the education of
foreign priests and the priests of Ireland ; and that the
great Anti-Protestant feeling in Ireland was fostered by the
education which was bestowed on the students at Maynooth.
He also referred to a statement in an article written by Mr.
Inglis, a foreigner, who stated that the priests of Ireland were
agitating priests.) And now they were going to increase the
power and the circulation of those doctrines which led the
country so near its destruction some time ago, and were now
about to give facility to, and extend the prevalence of their
opinions. The Protestants of Ireland all disapproved of the
system of education which was pursued at Maynooth, and
the ascetic seclusion which was impozed on the students. Any
body of men would, under the same system of training, turn out
into the world such men as the priests of Ireland.
A young man, early in life, put into the college with a
view to a provision for his after life, would, under the influence
of the doctrines and tenets inculcated at Maynooth, become
one of flint class to which they objected. The power of the
Homan Catholic priesthood in Ireland was absolute, and the
Protestants had strong doubts whether that power did not
extend to temporal as well as spiritual matters. It was to be
remembered that the Pope had no controul over them what-
ever ; they had a greater degeee of liberty, and were less re-
stricted by the Pope than the priests in any other Catholic
country in Europe, so that their power was almost absolute.
He objected to the version of the Bible with notes and com-
ments, as printed by the College printer, and read in Maynooth
as a class book. lie then instanced a note to the 13th chapter
of Matthew, to show the false intepretation which was given
In their Bible. Under these circumstances he did not think
it uncharitable, unjust, or ungenerous on the part of the Pro-
testants of Ireland, to object to the doctrines which were
taught in that place. Before they passed that Act they ought
to take very great care lest they were about to found a college
for the education of a set of men publishing the doc•
trines of those who were banished from nearly every
country in Europe. He meant the Jesuits, who, though re-
workable for their great knowledge and talents, were suppressed
by every country in Europe in consequence of their extreme
desire to obtain power. Dr. Kenny, who was the principal of
the Jesuits in Ireland, stated, on an examination as to the
opinions which pervaded Alaynoeth, that what they were
taught was exactly the same as in the Jesuit Colleges abroad,
where he was educated. He would net say that it was a Je-
suit college, but they had no reason to know that it was not ;
and they ought, at least, before passing the Act, to institute a
Committee to inquire into the system of education adopted
there, that they might be assured that they were not giving mo-
ney to a body who were proscribed by every power in Europe.
The Bill purposed to endow, permanently and for ever, without
the controul of the Crown, the College for the education of
Roman Catholic priests. We profess to be Protestants and
Dissenters from the Romish Church, and yet we attempted to
make the priests of that Church better controversialists and
more able opponents of the religion which we believe to be
true. lie asked could a Protestant Parliament consent to en-
dow a college for such purposes ?—( Hear, hear. ) The lsader
of the Opposition—or rather of that portion of it which sits
upon the other side of the House—was a supporter of the Bill.
But he did not disavow that he had more at heart the concilia.

Sion of the Romish Church—( Hear )—than the preservation I
of the Protestant religion. The leader of the Catholic party
in Ireland had expressed himself in strong terms of approba-
tion of the measure, and had stated that he would so far abate
disaffection in Ireland as to give the Government the full value
of its money. Two years ago that country was on the verge of
rebellion, and if the concession now proposed %i ere made, what
good ground had the House for supposing that a fresh tht eat of
a civil war would not lead to further concessions to the de-
mands of the Roman Catholics in Ireland. Some time since,
in the north of Ireland, a large number of Roman Catholics
were converted to the Protestant faith, and they were refused
provisions at any price, and they were obliged to be supplied
by the Protestants of other parts of the country. The cheek
to conversion would be increased by the proposed grant. The
Roman Catholic clergy were trained in doctrines the mos' anti-
social and the most repugnant to the Protestant population of
the country. No petition had been presented in support of the
Bill which was indicative of a great deal, and he thought
many of the Roman Catholic aristocracy did not approve of this
measure. They might approve of the endowment of a Roman
Catholic College and feel proud of it, but it was clear they did
not feel anxious about it, for they did not present
a single petition in favour of it. He :had trespassed too long
on the attention of the House, but he felt it to be his duty to
enter his protest against the Bill—he objected to it on
principle, because it would tend to endanger the existence of
the Protestant Church in Ireland—because no necessity
existed for it, because neither expediency nor even compact,
upon which so much had been relied, required it, and be-
cause the Bible was withheld by those who were educated in
Maynooth from the Roman Catholic people. He had endea-
voured as far as he could to express his opinions without con-
demning the opinions of any sect, but he felt it his duty thus
fairly to protest against the measure.
The question having been put by the SPEAKER,
Several HON. MEMBERS rose to address the House, but all
gave way to
Mr. GLADSTONE, who spoke as follows :—Sir, I am sure

the House will excuse me if I profess my anxiety to take the
earliest opportunity of delivering my sentiments in the debate.
I feel it my duty to apologise to the House for having suffered
one occasion in which this measure was discussed to pass by
without expressing an opinion upon it, or having given a vote.
The truth is that I did not think I could vote on the division
of last week, without stating to the House the reasons on which
that vote was founded, and I did not on the other hand feel
that I could put the House in possession of my views of the
entire case until the Bill was printed, and until I was enabled to
take a view of all its provisions. It was on that account, and
not from any desire to avoid the responsibility in-
cumbent on me, its common with every Member
of this House, and incumbent on me, for some special reasons,
frankly to disclose all the sentiments I entertain on this ques-
tion. I have no reason whatever to complain of the course
taken by the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for the
University of Oxford, who felt it his duty to call for an ex-
pression of this House. Representing, as he did, a very
powerful and wide-spread sentiment among the people of this
country, and entertaining sentiments the dictates of a con-
scientious conviction, I could not be surprised at the course
pursued by my Hon. Friend. I fully admit that the minority
of last week did represent the general and prevailing sense of
the people of England and Scotland.—( Hear, hear.) But,
making that admission, I must state, for my own part, that
after the most full and mature consideration of the question in
the position in which it stands, I am prepared, in opposition to
what I believe to be the prevailing opinion of the people of
England and Scotland—of my own constituents, from whom I
deeply regret to differ, and to my own deeply-cherished predi-
' lections—l am, I say, prepared to give my deliberate and
anxious support to the measure before the House.—('This an-
nouncement was received with loud and prolonged cheering
from the Opposition.) I will advert to some reasons which
have been advanced in support of the measure, and which, I
confess, appear to me inadequate to its support. My Right
Hon. Friend, in the closing part of his address, observed
that the grant he proposed amounted to no more than a liberal
and honourable construction of that compact. My Right Hon.
Friend remarked, that that compact, the Act of Union, he did
not interpret in a literal sense, but in that spirit of equity
which ought to subsist between the English and Irish people.
I confess that doctrine greatly facilitates my approach to the
consideration of this question. I believe, with the Right Hon.
Oentleman, the Member for Dungarvon, that there is some-
thing like a compact in this case. I do not mean with instru-
ments binding the parties to all eternity ; but I methane
a state of circumstances and relations between .
Parliament and the people of Ireland, which precludes
it has
the question from being considered as a newe one,ral e for
degree in
been a matter of discussion in a very considerable
previous debates upon the annual vote to Maynooth. But, Sir,
I do not think that argument is altogether
measure m on other
applicable to the
present question. have to considerthe
grounds—to consider it in the circumstances of a new measure.
With respect to the contract, I will quote a few words of Mr.
Percival, which have not been yet mentioned in these discus-
sions. Mr. Percival said, in 1812, that he supported the
grant as it stood, because it was one of those which
the Parliament of Ireland thought they should preserve
at the union ; because he found it in fact given over to Eng-
land as a part of the union. If the grant were fairly open
to opposition after the union, he should certainly be disposed
to resist it, became he thought it in principle wrong for a
State endeavouring to establish a particular system of reli-
gion, to provide for the maintenance, ecclesiastical endowment.
propagation, and encouragement of another religion. He
(Mr. Percival) found, that a Parliament composed of Irish-
men, possessing the whole religious endowments of the
country, altering the law fur the purpose of enabling parties
to establish colleges, and making, in the first instance, con-
tributions in support of a college, which was continued
from year to year. After quoting some further
observations of Mr. Percival, the Right Honourable
Gentleman read the following extract from the same
speech. " Under these circumstances, I say it would be most
ungenerous in you (the English Parliament) to avail yourselves
of that numerical superiority and strength for the purpose of
withdrawing the grant that has been conferred by the Irish
Parliament,and which, I am confident, thelrishParliament never
would have withdrawn." But he found that in the declaration
of Mr. Perceval, whose whole conscientious convictions were
opposed to the grant,whose Government was founded upon prin.
ciples of resistance to every concession, great or small, to Ro-
man Catholics, but a man whose native honesty and
candour led him to recognise the obligations of good faith
and which led him to make the declaration to which he had
alluded. When he looked at the fixity of the grant for so
many years, he could not think that at this moment there
could be any doubt with respect to the recognition of the
grant by Parliament, but he felt that the changes which were
now proposed to be made were so material with respect to the
foundation of the College, as to make the question almost al-
together a new one. He would not at all have referred to the
question of contract, had not to many petitions which had been

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isted, or that Parliament was bound by it. But what belied to
consider was, the proposal of the Right lion. Gentleman at the
head of the Government, which effected most important alter-
ations in the foundation of the College itself. He was not
merely going to chance the grant frorn being an annual into a
permanent cue, but lie was going to piece the building under
the immediate control of Government, thereby establishing a
eonnexion with it set clo.e as it (mild well be. The increase of
money appeared to him most nepurtant , tot. simply because it
was an increase of so many thousands, but because it altered the
eheraet,- of the State in relatien to the College. Originally it
certainly was not ititeieltel that, the
State should entirely maintain
this college; and the Dnke of Wellington declared that the
institution m's not to be entirely supported by the State. In
fact the eight or nine thousand a rear voted to Maynooth was
only understood as the part of a collection made for its support-
The State was only one of its contributors. But it was clear
they were now going to depart from that system. The whole
plan was about to be reconstructed. The professors who had
but scanty salaries, were now about to be liberally rewarded,
and the aliment, education, and care of the pupils there was to
be taken under the consideration of the State. The basis of
the College was about to be changed a me"
material change, but that change he had made
up his mind to support.—( Hear, hear.) He entirely re-
pudiated one argument that had been employed in support of
the lei-Teased grant—that of restitution. He disclaimed it in
every point of view—in point of law and constitution, and on the
ground of its being contrary to everything he knew of history.
lie would not now go into the details on that argument, but if
that was to be done as an act of restitution, it was one of the
most shameful confessions that could be made by the Legislae
tore. —( Hear, hear.) The Government made a gift of a
shilling or a sixpence in the pound. If this were made a ease
of restitution, nith' it not be most shabby, worse than shabby
—iebituous and disgraceful to offer such terms ?—( Hear.)
It had been sussed in favour of the grant that great results
would follow front it, it. consequence of the good feeling which
it would excite and the system which would be adopted. He
would net entertain extravagant expectations on this head ;
and regarding the argument, which had been used with some
plausibility, that now a higher class of men would be reared
for the priesthood, he thought that the members of the priest-
hood were among those classes which could supply the number
requisite for the discharge of those duties. Reference had
been made to Germany by the Hon. Member for Newcastle,
and it was said that there the sons of the Roman Catholic aristo-
cracy entered the Church. But how different was the case
between the two countries. The Catholic Church in Ger-
many was recognised by the State. It was in possession of its
ancient endowments, and enjoyed all the privileges which tra-
dition had handed down to it. The Catholic Church of Ger-
many had much the same reference to the State as the Pro-
testant Church in England. The grant might certainly give
dignity to the professors at Maynooth, and improve the tone of
feeling. The professors at present were very scantily paid;
and the consequence was that in most instances they
vacated the professor's chair, and sought parochial charges.—
( Hear.) N‘ hen larger salaries were given, there was little
doubt that a higher order of men would be obtained—men of
greater learning. The pupils would, in the first instance,
derive the advantage of this, and they would in turn impart
the benefits of it to their flocks. It had been urged, in favour
of this measure, that it would extend Protestantism in Ireland.
He did not know how it struck other minds, but he declared, in
sincerity, that he thought it would just be as reasonable to say
that the discovery of printing had made books scarce and dear,
and the application, of locomotive power to railroads had retarded
the facility of communication. He did not know what expecta-
tions could be formed of converting men by furnishing them with
ease and leisure, giving them a comfortable means of sub-
sistence, particularly to members of a people abounding in
national talent, to a people equal to any other on the face of
the earth. It was, he repeated, most extraordinary that such
concessions should weaken men's faith. He had no credit for
placing the measure in the position which it now occupied ;
neither had he the responsibility of placing it in that position.
Ox the contrary, it was clear that if he had been an
agent in any way, it was rather in retarding than
promoting the measure. lie must now revert to the argu-
ments in favour of the measure. It was urged that the
Catholic paupers of Ireland were very numerous; that they
were in great poverty, and that they had great diffi-
culty, nut only in supporting their own clergy.
but in supplying themselves with the necessaries of life.
His Hon. Friend had grounded his opposition to the measure
upon the opinions of Mr. Pitt. Now what was the object of
Mr. Pitt with respect to this matter. 'Was the object of Mr.
Pitt to found the College, and nothing more ?—(Cheers.) He
was not now discussing the question whether Mr. Pitt was
right or wrong. The object of Mr. Pitt was to found an esta-
blishment. to train the Roman Catholic priesthood, and that
provision should be made for their subsequent support. They
had been trained to a considerable extent, but no provision had
been made for their subsequent support. That might be right
or wrong, but surely it was unfair in argument, when only •
small portion of the views of Mr. Pitt had been carried into
execution, when only a limited period had expired, to condemn
the whole experiment. If the experiment was tot e tried at
all, it ought to be tried completely. His Hon. Friend the Mem-
ber for Newcastle hail spoken much on the defective state of the
College of Maynooth with regard to literature. Now could any
man look to the state of Ireland, could he look to the discus-
sions in Ireland with regard to religion—could any man reflect
on the position of Ireland, especially during the last century,
and haying duly weighed those considerations, could he sup-
pose, that if it were true this literature was defectively incul-
cated in the College of Maynooth, it would form a ground for
Parliament refusing to support it. That was matter for amend-
ment in detail. lie confessed, after entering into these consi-
derations, he could nut deny that the burden of proof lay with
these who were the opponents of the Bill. lie would ask him
self whether there were grounds in our law or Constitution_
and not only in our law and Constitution, but also in the con-
viction of the people, which formed the living basis of the
Constitution, any great principle on whic he could
steadily refuse or reject this Bill? Was there such a principle?
He could see no ground on which the opponents of this Bill
could permanently and securely stand. He believed that con-
ciliatory measures had a natural force in wittning the affection
of men. On one side it was said that to withhold this grant
would, under all the circumstances, he contrary to justice ;
and, on the other side, it was said that, under all the circum-
stances, the grant was contrary to religion and duty. Ile
could not adopt either the one or the other. Now, he would
look for a moment to the material of which the opposition to
this measure was composed. A large portion of
the petitions presented against this Bill had pro-
ceeded from persons who objected to any grant being
made for the support of any religion. It was a very common
thing to find persons opposed to each other combining toge-
ther to oppose that which they mutually opposed. Those
parties might on other subjects he diametrically opposed to
each other. What would be the position of his lion. Friend
the Member for Newcastle if lie should succeed in rejecting
this Bill ? One-half of those who would support him were
against religious endowments of any kind, and against all reli-
gion connected with the State. Nor was this the only diffi-
culty which his Ilonourabie Friend would have to deal
with. There were others equally great. Some of
his supporters had a conscientious objection to the
R:.man Catholic religion, but were prepared to support
all forms of the Protestant religion. As he had said before,
it was easy to get a combination against a certain measure or
principle, but it was not so easy to induce the same parties to
combine for another object. He said that if they rejected this
Bill, they were bound to state to the people of Ireland the
distinct and intelligible principle on which they had acted.
Now what was the constitutional ground on which they stood ?
Many persons said, 't Let us recognise the different forms of
the Protestant religion as being entitled to the support of the
State ; but let us not go further ; let us exclude from the support
of the State, whoever has any community with the Church of
Rome." He could not recognise that principle, either in a
constitutional point of view, or in a religious point of view. Ile
could not understand the alliance between the Constitution and
the law of the country and an undefined principle such as was,
indicated by the term Protestant. He knew that it was pro-
vided by law, that the Sovereign of the country should be a
Protestant. But that became defined by Act of Parliament,
the Sovereign must be a communicant of the Church of Eng.
land. lie was not speaking of the merits of the different forms
of religion, but the general term Protestant might
lie applied to that which might vary from day to day.
There was no ground for the refusal of the Btll of his Hon.
Friend. He believed that the boon that had been offered
would be received and considered as a great one.—(Hear.) He
looked upon the present case as one of great importance. He
considered the measure of great importance and one that was
giving a great boon. lie trusted the house would adopt it,
and he called upon the people to do so notwithstanding their
preconceived opinions.
The Earl of ARUNDEL and SURREY supported the motion,
believing the intentions of the Right. Hon. Baronet to be
sincere. lie had the greatest respect for the Hon. Member
fur Oxford ; he would go even further, and express a hope that
the lion. Member would permit him to say that he enter-
tertaincd for him the highest esteem—( Hear, hear)—yet he
( Lord Arundel) could not avoid saying that the Honourable
Member appeared to him to be admirably fitted for the
situation of high priest of the Jews.—(" Hear, and laughter. )
He ( Lord Arundel) was a member of the Roman Catholic
faith, by conviction ; and, from the fact that that conviction
was the result of tis having read those scriptures that it had
been said Heinen Catholics were not allowed to read.—
( Laughter and cheers.) But, at the same time, he should say
that lie was the enemy of religious persecution, no matter in
what part of the world it was practised.—( Cheers.) He did
not mean to delay the House by any further observations ; but
he could not sit down without expressing his most unqualified
admiration of the course the Right lion. Baronet at the head
of the Government had pursued on this question.—(Cheers.)
IWith a large and determined minority against him, yet he had
persevered
'll it, and surveyed with his wonted calmness the
progress of the storm lie had raised around him.—(Cheers.)
Mr. D'ISRAELI said be should apologise to the Noble
Lord opposite for having persevered, when they both stood up
together; but he begged to assure the Noble Lord, that be
would not for a moment have persevered, had he not believed
that he, and not the Noble Lord, had caught the Speaker's
eye.—(Hear, hear.) lie was extremely glad that the Noble
Lord had expressed his opinions upon this question ; and he
begged to assure the Noble Lord that, in the observations he
was about to make, he did not mean to say anything calculated.
to annoy the feelings of the Noble Lord, for he deeply sym-
pathised with, and had the most profound respect tor; his
creed.—(Hear, hear.) lie now came to the speech of the
Right lion. Gentleman the Member for Newark. That was
an extremely able harangue, and one which the Right Hon.
Gentleman appeared to have thought it necessary to pass the
gangway to deliver.—((sheers and laughter.) 'the Right Hon.
Gentleman had informed the House that lie supported the
proposition of his chief for certain reasons which he deemed
unanswerable, and not because of any other causes which
might have been suppoeed.—("
Hear," and laughter.) But be
(Mr. D'lsraeli) would ask, why need the Right Hun. Gentle-
man have passed the gangway to deliver this speech, or, in
fact, why need he have crossed the House to do so ? (" Hear,"
and laughter.) How could so subtle a casuist have deemed it
necessary to have gone into such a lengthy explanation of his
arguments?--(" Hear," and laughter.) But the fact was,
that the Right Hon. Gentleman was aware that the present
position of the Government was this, that the principle on
which they acted was now worn out, and that they should
the. efore discover some new principle on which to act;
and he (Mr. D'lsraeli) believed they had found it
—( Cheers and laughter.) But what was it ? He was willing
to acknowledge that the reasons of the Right lion. Baronet
had been fairly and plainly laid down ; but if so, let him ask
had no attempt been made to adumbrate this new prin.
ciple ? %% as not this principle, or rather were not those new
principles, the very same that had been the principles on which
Governments had acted that now no longer existed ?—( Hear,
hear)—and was not the opposition to them the very foundation
of the Conservative theory ?—(Cheers.) lie (Mr. D'lsraeli)
was quite ready to agree with the Right lion. Gentleman ire
much that ho had said, and to declare that the relation between
Church and State, at the present time, was:extremely unsatis-
factory.—( Hear, hear.) He (Mr. D'lsraeli) had now been
some nine or ten sessions in Parliament, and therefore
he had had some occasion to observe the to m-
pestuous manner in which the subject had been
met here. The Right Hon. Gentleman had made the grave
assertion that the Government had endowed the English
Church, that they had endowed the Anglican Church, and
could they, therefore, refuse the endowment now proposed?...
( Ilear, hear.) Now he (Mr. D'israeli) would ask,
_e had they
H
endowed the Anglican Church 9—( Hear, hear.)
Hon en-
tleman, with all his casuistry, to
the contrary. The
,s
11"eto it
con-
tended they had not; and he would defy the Right • G
Church, no doubt, had large estates attached but then
new question Igen 4nd if so, he would like to know what
when the Government talked of endowing a new Church,

PRINCESS'S TIIEATRE. OXFORD-STREET.
LESSEE, MR. J. M. MADDOX. •

Tills EVENING,

Will be performed the Play of TIIE STRANGER. The Stranger,
Mr. Wallach; Baron, Mr. Archer; Count Wintersten, Mr.
Courtney ; Mrs. Hailer, Miss Cushman.
After which, Mr. lIENRY RUSSELL will sing his popular ceps-
posiuons, accompanied by himself on Kirkman's grand Fonda
ilanoforte.
Mr. SANDSand hIsINFANT BROTHER, MAURICE, will appear
ill
.their 'leafing and Wonderful Entertainment, DE SALON,
FREAKS OF FANCY.
To conclude with a New (Irani Oriental Melo-dramatic Burlesque
Extravaganza, in Two Acts, called TIMOUR THE CREAM OF ALL
THE TARTAR& Tirnour, Mr. Oxberry ; Zorilda, Miss E. Stanley

TREA.TRE ROYAL, LYCEUM. UNDER TUE MANAGEMENT OF MRS. /KEELEY.
T HIS EVENING
Will be repeated a New Original Drama, to be called ON DUTY.
Principal Characters by Messrs. F. Vining, F. Mathews, and Keeley;
Miss Villars, Mrs. Woollidge, and litis a Grove.
After which, THE MARRIAGE CERTIFICATE. Prin
Miss Grove, and Vining, Mrs.. Keeley.
re be followed by a Burlesque of English story,
Olden Ideas and Modern Notious—lnvested With all the Pomp and
Display of Scene—Painters engaged expressly--Costumes according
Ballet, Music. and Novel %lege Arrange-
to Fancy—Mechanism,
meats—to be called, WIIITTING'TON AND lIIS CAT Dick Whittington, Mrs. Keeley ; Maley Moloch, the Lien Tamer of the
Dessert, Mr. Keeley ; the Cat, Mr. Collier, supported by mess,.
F. Matthews, and Wigan ; MIS Fairbrother, and Miss Grove.
To conclude with the New Farce of A MODEL OF A WIFE. In
-well Messrs. A. Wigan, Frank Matthews, and Meadows, Mrs.
WeoUldge, and Miss Fairbrother will perform.
The Box-ottice is open daily, under the direction of Mr. Grogan
corn Ten till Four.

ASTLEY'S ROYAL AMPHITHEATRE.
PROPRIETOR, MR. W. BATTY.
Triumphant Success of the New Spectacle.
THIS EVENING.
The Performances will commence with a Grand Military Equestrian
Drama, entitled TILE MAID OF SARAGOSSA.
Scenes in the Circle, introducing M. and Mdme. Demos, the cele-
rated French Equestrians.
To conclude with the admired Faree of THE SPECTRE BRIDE-
aROOM. . _

In arrangement has been made with Mr. White (the cejebrated
Lion Tamer) who will appear on Monday, April 14, .and exhibit his
Wonderful Feats with his unrivalled collection of Lions, Tigers,
Leopards, Panthers, &c.

DAVIDGE'S ROYAL SURREY THEATRE.
THIS EVENING

Will be performed WILLIAM TELL. Supported by Messrs.
Hughes, Hicks, Fredericks, Heslop, Lewis, Mrs. M. Hughes, Mrs.
Hicks, Miss Chartley, Miss Pearson, Mrs. H. Vining, &c.
After which, THE IRISH TUTOR, in which the Infant Power,
Yla sHerou, will appear.
To conclude with BLANCHE HERIOT. 111 which Messrs.
Hughes, Hicks. Fredericks, Heslop, Cowell, Miss Martin, Mrs. R.
Bonner, Stc., will perform.
Places and Private Boxes to be had of Mr. Kerschner, at the Box-
Once, from Eleven to Pour.