Star.
London, England, 1830-11-13 00:00:00

SPIRIT OF THE JOURNALS.

CHIIOSICLE.—A very important question was asked last night by
Mr. Gordon, " whether it was the intention of the Chancellor of the
li:chequer, previous to entering upon the discussion respecting the Civil
List, to lay before the House the detallsof the English Pension List!"
The Chancellor of the Exchequer replied, " that the Honourable Gen.
dollen must be aware that the details of the English PerseicaLtst sever
were yicen." Mr. Hume, on this, reminded the Bight Honourebk
lientleman, that when he had made a similar demand in 18211, it was
objected to upon the ground that the details could not be brought for-'
ward until there was a settlement of the Civil List. We have a strong
prepossession against all pensions not voted on some specific ground.
No man has a right to the public money who has not done the public
service. Charity covereth a multitude of sins ; but to give away the
property of others is not charity. We trust the day is not fie distant
when the public money shall be applied only for services rendered to the

HERALD.It will be seen that the King of Holland has declared
the Belgian maritime provinces in a state of blockade, which is to be
enforced with all the rigour that such generally-important, but always
vexatious measures, are susceptible of. This policy nobody affects to
understand, for the proceedings of this enlightened Mnarch have long
gone beyond the reach of all rational comprehension.Tite only reason that
can be assigned is, that his Majesty, intending, no doubt, to facilitate
the settlement of Belgian differences by the great powers, a tribunal to
which he has long been appealing, has now done the very thing that
will give it the greatest embarrassn.ent, just in the same spirit that he
revoked the powers granted to the Prince of Orange at the very moment
that the Prince was likely to effect an accommedation.

POST.--A fact most honourable to the memory of his late Majesty
was stated by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. George IV. has been
the first sovereign since the establishment of a civil list, who has left no
debts chargeable upon it. Those of preceding sovereigns varied in
amount from 500,0001. to a million. The more the nation learns of the
character of his late Majesty, the more will it discover of those noble]
qualities which most dignify and exalt the monarch and the man. Liberal
to excess in charity, munificent in his patronage of the arts beyond any
sovereign who preceded him, he never transgressed the means afforded
him ; and the charge of extravagance so wantonly brought against him,
is thus refuted to the fullest extent.

Canonro.x.—Various reports and rumours—portentous signs_'
continue in active circulation on the subject of the present singular mi-
nisterial crisis. Immediately after the close of the Premier's speech, on
Tuesday se'nnight, a Noble Lord ( M—d—d) exclaimed to an Ex.
Chancellor on the Woolsack, " him, I'll bet a hundred he
has a Reform Bill in his pocket; recollect the Catholic Ruse." We
will not attempt to estimate the chagrin of his Grace, when his gra-
tuitous and bed-ridden fulmination against reform was answered by
radical speeches from Ultra•Toriea. A more abortive manteuvre
was never planned. Some credulous persons affirm, that the
Duke of Wellington is a real itemise ; and that the man whose nerves
stood the assaults of the barbarians of the East and the armies of Eu-
rope, has fallen a sacrifice to the night-mare of the chief magistrate of
the City. Events at home and abroad, equally unexpected, have greatly
puzzled his Grace. We repeat, that he is well known to be sick of
office, and " peradventure" a sense of " duty," and the difficulties of
finding his successor, alone preserve his situation. The artillery of the
boroughmongets is a machine he cannik manage ; he is cer t ain ill
calculated by nature for that instrument, and to his credit be it spoken.
Unquestionably the existence of the ministry is critical and precarious ;
but those will be bold pilots who may take the helm from the sailor
King. Tuesday next is looked to the Ides of March. To-day,
it is said, another meeting takes place at Lord Ahhorp's.—
The result is expected to determine the course of Tuesday, and
speculation is busy. We confess we are too old to believe in the modern
miracle of a House of Commons reforming itself without help from the
people. Bur the war now waging between the boroughmongers and the
people is becoming critical. Time will reveal the result. There never
will be a "strong Administration" till the House of Commons is re-
stored to the people. The contest is one between the whale and his
harpooners. Ever and anon the monster of the deep runs the length of
his line, but pierced by fresh strokes, he grows weaker and weaker. The''
Aristocracy cannot maintain the contest very long; if they are wise they
will not attempt to perpetuate their ascendancy. The Duke of Wel.
lington cannot save them, nor can they save the Duke of Wellington.
In the House of Commons the solitary situation of Sir Robert Peel is
most pitiable; he is politically Moiled.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.
HOUSE OF LORDS, ;Now. 12.
Their Lordships met at five o'clock.
Lord TENTERDEN postponed the second reading of the four bills
which he introduced for the reform of the law, to Thursday next, and
moved that their lordships should be summoned for that day.—
Agreed to.
Lord DURHAM presented twenty-four petitions from the county
and city of Durham, praying for the abolition of negro slavery.
Petitions to the same effect were presented by Earl Spencer, from
Northampton, Bolton, Leicester. Warwick, and several other places ;
by the Marquis of Bute, from Oxford, and several other places ; by the
Marquis of Anglesey, from Carnanon, and Holyhead ; by Lord Caw.
doe from Milford in:Walea i • by the Bishop of Bath and Wells from
Bath, Chard, and several other place; by Lord Suffield from several
places, to the same effect; by Lord Wharneliffe from York, Sheffield,
and several other places in Yorkshire ; by the Marquis of Hastings
from Feversham, and several other places.
The Marquis of ANGLESEY presented a petition from the uncer-
tificated bankrupts confined in the Four Courts Illarshalses, Dublin,
praying for an assimilation of the Bankrupt Laws; and a petition
horn two parishes in Dublin, praying an alteration in the distribution
of the funds of the Kildare-street Society. The Noble Marquis said
that the original intention of the Kildare-street society was to allay
civil feuds, but he regretted to say that it had since its establishment a
very contrary effect, and had tended to increase those feuds, as the die.
tribution of the money placed at the disposal of the Kildaroatreet sod.
ety was not appropriated in the manner intended. (Hear.) It was ori-
ginally intended as a model school, but trom the principles upon
which it was governed, the Roman Catholics were precluded from a
participation of the advantages intended. It was originally meant that
fuer days in the week should be occupied in the education of the chi].
then, and two in religious instruction by the pastors of the parish ; but
from the arrangements introduced, it was impossible that the Roman
Catholic children could avail themselves of the advantages intended.
Unless an equal distribution of the funds was committed to the care of
influential persons of both sects, it would be advisable for government
not to sanction another grant. In the session of 1828, when he was
Loyd Lieutenant of Ireland, a grant of 26,000 L was voted to the
Society, which sum was placed at his discretion. He then adopted
every means to obtain information as to the state of the funds, and to
his great surprise, he found that of the 25,0001. nominally placed in his
hands, 15,000 L was anticipated, and the remaining 10,0001. was sp.
propriated. He trusted that no more money would be granted, until an
understanding took place between the two leading parties in Ireland.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE hoped that the subject would be
attended to by Government. The report of the commissioners upon the
subject contained information well worthy their consideration. The
money granted t.: the Kildare-street Society was allocated with the
greatest partiality, and to purposes not intended by the Igti He
trusted that the gallant Secretary of State for Ireland would turn his at.
nation to the subject, as be appeared, by the measures be was about
to introduce fur the benefit of Ireland, most anxious to check any abuse
in that country.
The Marquis of LANSDOWN said that the Society, so fax from
producing the effect originally contemplated, created abandon.
Lord CARBERRY defended the Society.
The Marquis of DOWNSHIRE took pains to make himself ac-
uinted with the principles of the Society, and considered it worthy of
thew
nfidence of Parliament. He said that no charge of misapplica-
tion of the funds could be proved. As the President of the Soele% he
always recommended that a liberal distribution of the funds should be
made.
Earl DARNLEY thanked the noble marquis for bringing the sub.
ject before the house; it was one of great importance.
AGRICULTURAL DIBILIIZIL
The Duke of RICHMOND rose to give the noble lord opte an
epportunhy to explain the communication be made to their thipa
last night, respecting the state of the pessantly in Heat and Sussex.
lie (the Duke of Richmond) contradicted the noble bed, but hi now admitted that he did not mean to say, that what the noble Iced had
'Med did not take place in some parishes. The noble duke refined to the letter which was the noble lord's authority for his statement, and it
illpeared that the writer of it had addressed about thirty of the unem-
ployed peasants, who cried out for an increase of wages, and asked them
If they did not get an increase of wages, woo la they devil°, alele
employers' property ? " They replied that they would protect Ike Pm" Percy of their employers. They were then informed Brat if tatty pat'

this observation on their petition, that their wages should be increased.
The noble duke said that the people were not to be told that their wages
should be increased by intimidation. (Hear, hear.) He regretted that
the labourer was not sufficiently remunerated.
Lord TEYNHAM would feel very sorry if any words of his should
go out of that house calculated to berme excitement, or a spirit of
dissatisfaction. He meant to say on the previous evening, that the far-
mers in Kent had deemed it prudent to raise the wages of labourers. It
was quite impossible they would yield to intimidation. (Hear.)

- -
The Marquis of CAMDEN said that any attempt to make the
farmers increase wages could not be sanctioned. The conduct pursued
in Kent and Sussex was such that no man who thought right could
approve of it. The profits of the farmer rendered him unable to in-
crease the wages of the labourers.
Earl DARNLEY said that the wages in Kent were higher than in
soy other part of the country ; they were paid its. a.day. The &semis-
faction did not arise from low wages. but from the want of employment.
The labourers must be aware that the attempt to compel the farmer to
increase their wages, must at the saute time compel him to decrease the
'number of labourers in his employment, as the farmer's means and
profits rendered him unable to lay out more money on his farms, con-
sequently any effort of this kind would ultimately tend to Inman the
number of unemployed labourers.
The House adjourned at six o'clock till Monday.

NOUSE OF COMMONS, Nov. 12.

Mr. Crafer, from the Treasury, brought up certain returns of the sa.
lades and pensions enjoyed by perms from the Government under
1,0001. a-year. Ordered to be printed.
An immense number of petitions for the abolition of colonial slavery
were presented from all parts of the united kingdom.
A petition from Hylton Jollifre, Esq. complaining of the undue re-
turn of Mr. Briscoe, the Sitting Member for Surrey, was presented,
and ordered to be taken into consideration on the 14th of January.

Col. DAVIES gave notice that he would, on the 2d of March next,
move for a committee to give better effect to secondary punishments.
Mr GUEST moved for returns of the quantities of iron imported and
exported during the last year.
Mr. LEADER presented a petition from the inhabitants of Athlone,
in Ireland, for an account of the funds of the different corporations in
that county, and of the application of those funds. More than a mil-
lion of persons, the hon. member said, were in a state of the greatest
wretchedness; and although Government allowed these Corporations
land of the annual value of 10,0001. yet not one shilling o t sum
was applied to relieve the wants of the people. The hon. gentleman at
the same time presented& petition from the same place for the extension
of religions liberty to the Jews.

Mr. O'CONNELL presented two petitions for the repeal of the
Union,which stated that it was the opinion of the landlords and inhabi.
tants of Kilmore, in the county of Wicklow, that there was no prospect
I of Ireland being otherwise than a burden to this country.
Mr. It. GRANT gave notice that he would, on the 23d inst. move for
the extension of the clause in the Metropolitan Police Act, disqualify.
ing policemen to vote at elections for Members of Parliament, to all
police uificen throughout the kingdom.
The ATTORNEY•GENERAL gave notice that he would, on
Monday next, move for leave to bring in a short Bill to amend the Bill
for the better Administration of Justice in England and Wales.

Lord MORPETH presented a petition froni the inhabitants of Man-
cheater, praying for the abolition or for a serious reduction of the duties
on newspapers, stamps, and advertisements, in order to destroy the mo-
nopoly that at present existed. While on his legs, he wished to ask his
boo. Mend, the member for Dover, whether it was his Intention to bring
forward any measure on the subject.
Mr. THOMPSON replied in the affirmative, but said that his mea-
sure would take a more extensive view of the subject.
Mr. GUEST moved for a return of the contract prices of flour, bread,
butter, candles, &c. from the earliest period.

Mr. BEN ETT presented a petition from the inhabitants of Wiltshire,
for the reduction of taxation.

TEE TAXES.

Mr. It. GRANT wished to ask the right boo. gentleman opposite
whether it was the intention of his majesty's government to bring
forward any measure for the reduction of tazatkn.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that, at present,
he was not prepared to give an answer to the question, although the ru-
mours afloat respecting the reluctance of ministers to reduce the taxa-
tion of the country were without foundation.

Sir N. W. RIDLEY said that be had been encouraged to hope that
the duty on sea-borne coals would have been remitted. He was quite
aware that these were times when no very groat reduction of taxation
could be expeeted--(oh 1 oh I)--but he was not anxious to enter into
a discussion of the subject; an be thought was, that hopes ought not
to be held out by the government which could not be realised. There
was, in his opinion, no subject more worthy of the attention of the right
hon. gentleman opposite than that which had for its object the elevation
of the condition of the lower classes. And he thought that if the duties
were remitted on sea-borne coals, soap, and candles, and a property-tax
laid on in their stead, that the poor would be essentially beneetted, and
the burden would be trsnferred from them to the rich and powerful,
who were best able to bear it.

Mr. ROTHSAY said that In the last year the duty on beer and lea•
ther had been remitted. The poor had felt the advantage of these boons,
but he feared much that even should the duty on seaborne coals be re.
moved, the poor would benefit little by the measure, owing to the mo-
nopoly that existed in the north. He thought that the only way in
which the industrious classes could be served, would be by a remission
of a portion of the assessed taxes. (Hear, hear.)

Mr. TENNYSON hoped that the Government would take tba ear&
est opportunity of informing the house of the manures they meant to
adopt for the remission of taxation.

Sir R. WILSON agreed that i► was a subject which ought to be
brought forward by his Majesty's Ministers. He perfectly concurred
in what had fallen from his hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle,
with respect to the expedience and justice of lying on a property-tax.
Mr. IL GORDON observed that the gallant and hon. member for
I Southwark had been encouraging government to lay on a property tat.
He could not agree to the adoption of any such measure, but he thought
that if a portion of the &ranted taxes were taken of all would go on
well ; he hoped his Majesty's ministers would give the country an as-
surance that itiwas their intention to relieve the people from a Consi-
derable portion of that taxation under which they at preum► groaned.

Gen. GASCOYNE thought that the government ought to remit the
duties on sea-borne coals, and other articles of consumption, in which
the poor were materially concerned.

Sir R. PEEL asked whether it would not be better for his gallant and
hon. friend to move at once for a committee to inquire into the state of
trade ?

Mr. BENETT thought that it would be better that taxes should fall
upon those who possessed property than upon the poor, who were unable
to pay them. The hon. gentleman concluded by presenting a petition,
praying that the fundholder rhould be obliged equally with the land.
holder to contribute to the taxes.

Mr. ELLIS moved for an account of all monies paid to and by the
commissioner appointed for the reduction of the national debt, and of
all annuities chargeable thereon.

Mr. GORDON asked the right boa. gentleman opposite whether he
would lay before the house an account of the English Pension List?

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER► thought his hoe.
friend must have been aware that no such list had ever been given.
Mr. GRANT replied that he was aware of that. Other papers, never
furnished before, had been laid before the house, and he could assign no
good reason why the list be required should not.
Mr. HUME said that, in 1828, be moved for a return of the English,
Irish, and &etch pension list. He should now make a similar motion,
and he thought the house ought not to proceed to a vote, until these
returns should have been laid on the table.

TEE CIVIL LIST.

The SPEAKER read the order of the day, that the house do resolve
itself into a committee of the whole house, to consider the stsbfeet of the
civil list.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that as it bad
I appeared to be the desire of that house that no decision should be come
Ito that night, he meant only to propose the usual resolution, and state
the view which be had adopted with respect to the future civil
list. To enable bon. members to obtain full and clear information on
the subject, be had caused documents to be prepared. and laid on the
table of that house, in order that any boo. member might refer to them
if he thought proper.
The SPZAIML then left the chair, and the house accordingly resolved
itself into a committee.

The CH ANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that he rase, in
pursuance of the notice he had given, with the full assurance that the
house would cheafully give to his Majesty a provision adequate to the
civil government of the country, and suitable to his honour, crown, and
dignity. If ever there was an occasion when a proposition was brought
forward which could dispense with any recommendation from the pee-
-1 poser, that was the occasion, as be was ernident that there was not am
I bon. member in that Hona—cu, indeed, a; man in the country—who
would not willingly end cordially do ell in hie power to support the
dignity of the Crown. The people of England were naturally attsched
to Monarchy, and it would therefore:be their glary to maintain die dig-
nity and splendour of the Crown in a manner becoming the rank which
this country held among European mations. (Hass.) This was his feel-
ing, and be consequately fah smeared of the snenissons esneeranes of the
House in making tub a provision far hie Majesty as the eiresanstanas
of the case would require. In what be meant to propose, be was fully
prepared for the meet rigid sod critical esainination. Os the one band
be might be amused of a want of enflame libadiq ; sad, on the other,

perhaps it would be alleged against him that he had adopted a too ri-
gorous system of economy. He wished however to steer, if possible,
between the two extremes. He wished to avoid lavish prodigality, and
at the same time keep clear of niggardly parsimony; but still be felt
convinced that Lis course would receive the approbation of the House.
In bringing forward this proposition, be felt that he stood in a situation
of greater difficulty than ever be had been placed in during any former
Session. The eitcumstat cos were novel to him. This was a measure
incidental to a new reign, sod it was for a Monarch who ascended the
throne with the respect, with the love of his people, for whose dignity
and comfort they were called on to provide. (Hear, hear, hear.) Du-
ring the whole of the last reign, no claim had been made on that house
for any 'provision for the liquidation of debts incurred by the Crown
beyond the allowance granted in the Civil List; and it would be satis-
factory to the house to learn that no debt whatever had been contracted
by the Crown since last they Suet. This was not the case in former
reigns; for, in the reign of Queen Anne, 500,0001. were applied for.
In the reign of Geo. I. Parliament granted 1,000,0001. and in that of
Geo. I I. 500,0001. But the rum granted for the debts of the Crown
over and beyond the Civil List allowance during the reign of George
111. amounted to between 3,000,0001. and 4,000,0001. The late reign
closed, however, without leaving behind it any debt, and this was cre-
ditable not only to those who bad the arrangement of the late
Civil List, but to the liberality of Parliament who granted it. (Hear,
hear.) It was impossible not to give praise to the late King
for his limited expenditure. ( Hem, hear, bear.) There was another
peculiarity in the proposition which he was about to make, which he
thought ought to call forth the approbation and insure the thanks of that
house. A greater extent of revenue had been surrendered to the dis-
posal of parliament than at any former period : (hear, hear.) Not only
did his majesty surrender 800,0001. per annum, but also the casual re-
venues and droits of the crown, which in all former reigns were left
under the control and at the disposal of the crown. In making these
surrenders of his rights, his majesty had not only met the wishes of his
people in point of economy, but obviated all the objections which were
started in former parliaments. By the proposition which he (the
Chancellor of the Exchequer) meant to propose, he wished to avoid
the incurring any debt by the crown after the Civil List should
have been arranged by Parliament : (hear, hear, hear.) The
very name of debt. he thought, carried with it an imputation of mis-
conduct on the part of those by whom it was incurred. Itch ought not
to exist; and in his judgment it would not be just of that house to
make any arrangement which might probably lead to such a result.
(Hear.) It would therefore be advisable to avoid any such consequence,
that the crown should have a proper provision assigned to it ; (Hear.)
and the question in the first place was, what amount would be nem-
sary for that purpose ? In forming an opinion on this point, it would be
necessary to recur to the past, rather than to the future ; and in forming
the new civil list, he should prefer taking past experience for his guide,
rather than entering into any fresh calculations or estimates, mak-
ing however such changes and altetations as the varied circumstances of
the crown might render expedient. From the papers on the table, the
house would learn the total amount which had been granted by the civil
list to his late Majesty. By the civil list which was voted at the com-
mencement of the reign of the late King, his Majesty had a specific al.
lowanee of 800,0001. a year for England, 270,0001. foe Ireland. besides
109,0001. of the hereditary revenues of Scotland, which his late Ma.
jesty was allowed to apply to the civil service of that country. His late
Majesty was also left the droits of Admiralty, which amounted to
a further sum of 32,8001. and all these his present Majesty surrendered.
From the new civil list there would, therefore, be a deduction of
166,0001. as compared with that of the former reign, on which it was
founded. The amount of the Civil List which he proposed by his re-
solution, would not be for different parts, but for the whole of the united
kingdom. He meant to assign particular classes to particular parts, so
as to render the whole clear and intelligible. The total amount of the
present Civil List, instead of being 970,0001.w0u1d not exceed 884,0001.
As the Civil List would now comprise an allowance both to the King
and Queen, the consolidated fund would be remitted, a sum of 26,0001
the sum allowed to his present Majesty when Duke of Clarence,
and a saving to that effect would be made to the country.
Other swings to the amount of 15,0001. and 119,0001. would also be
made by a system of retrenchment which had been adopted, but which
bad as yet produced no benefit to the country; he alluded to the ar-
nutgensect which the government had entered into not to fill up certain
public offices on their becoming vacant. A further reduction of 10,0001
would be effected in the Irish Pension List. The whole saving, as he
bad said before, would be 181,0001. This did note resent a fair picture
of ;ha expenditure of the civil list. In the present case, his Majesty
was blessed with a Queen, who shared the respect and love which was
borne towards his Majesty, and the house could not withhold from her
Majesty the allowance usually made to the Queens of England, which
during tbersigns of Geo. I. and 11. was 50,0001. per ann.Having a Queeu,
the King, like all married men, had additional expenses on his establish-
ment, end that was a circumstance which ought not to be forgotten ;
he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) knew not how to estimate a sum
for this purpose; but in the 970,0001 was contained all that was deemed
necessary both for King and Queen ; in former civil lists no provision
was made for pensioning the old servants of the deceased monarch, and
that Ineumbrance consequently fell upon the consolidated fund. On
the demise of George the Third, the pensions allowed to old servants
amounted to 91,0001. and a further sum of 19,0001. was granted for the
same purpose after the death of his Queen. No such claim was now
intended to be made, his Majesty having undertaken to compensate such
of his royal brother's servants as he had not taken into bis own establish..
ment out of the allowance made to him by the civil list. Such were the
pecuniary savings to the country intended to be effected by the new
civil list; and it now became his duty to advert to the new dill list
establishment. There were a variety of opinions on this subject, and
some were for separating the private from the public expenditure of the
King. It might, however, be difficult to draw the precise line of de.
marcation ; but for his (the Chancellor of the Exchequer s) part, be
could not see the advantage of such a separation. In order to avoid one I
class of objections, he had removed from the present civil list the salaries
of those officers who had been paid partly out of the civil list, and partly
out of other fund*, so that the present civil list would present the actual
amount to which payments were made. The salaries of the judges and
I other officers of the government, including the speaker of that house,
had been transferred in that manner. This was the arrangement
which he had to submit to the house, and, in order that they might
be clear and intelligible, he had classified each department of the
public expenditure. The civil list was intended to comprise
ten classes. The first referred to his Majesty's privy purse,
which, instead of 80,0001. was 110,0001. The second related to the sa-
laries of the Gentlemen Pensioners and other officers attached to the
household, the amount of which was 140,6461. The third comprehended
the household expenditure, and that was estimated at 210,6001. The
fourth referred to the Royal charities and other special purposes, and
amounted to 23,2001. The fifth applied to certain pensions upon the
Civil List, which, by Mr. Bible's act, were 74,2001. The sixth em-
braced the expenditure of Foreign Ministers, both Ambassadors and
Consuls, and would be covered by 1.400,0001. although the expenditure
of the last year was 1,660,0001 which proved the disposition on the part
of government to bring down every branch of the public expenditure as
low as possible. The only instances in which the salaries of Ambassadors
had not been reduced, were those stationed at Paris and St. Petersburgh.
It was also intended to reduce the outfit hum 7,8001 to 0001 and
make a deduction ham the salaries when the parties were absent on pri.
Tate business. The diplomatic expenditure would be brought intoner.
rower limits, as it was proposed that, in fhture, Parliament should pro-
vide for the consular establishment, which created an expense of 30,0001.
The seventh class comprised the hereditary revenues, which had always
been placed at the disposal of the crown, and which amounted to
137,0001. The eighth included the salaries of the Lord Chancellor and
other high officers of state, forming a sum of 54,0001. The ninth em.
braced the civil list of Ireland, which was reduced him 270,0001. to
145,0001. and on which a further reduction of from 40,0001. to 00,0001.
was proposed to be made; and the tenth refined to Scotland, with respect
to the 515,0001. allowed, for which no possible objection meld be
made. It must be quite obvious that, in eabmitting these emboss to
the Ileum, it would also be nuareary to provide for fauna coadegmdee,
and that was the rumen that asum bad been retained over awl above
the actual amount of the Civil List, for answering such coethipschs.

The surrenders made by his Majesty would account for his (the Cyan•
cellor of the Exchequer's) asking such ac additional vote. Although
the present Civil List provided for charges to the amount of 100,0001.
more than the former, yet it was 161,001. less in the total amount.
Having thus laid a statement of his plans before the House, he would
sit down with the full cooviedon de his mind, that such an arrangement
would be made as would be satisfactory, not only to his Majesty but the
public, as there was no disposition either in that House or eisewher:, to
withhold from his Majesty that allowance which was nectalory to up.
hold the splendour and dignity of the Crown.
Lord ALTHORP said that it would not be necessary—indeed, it
would be impossible—far him to follow the right hon. gentleman
through the details of his statement; and he thought that a,elect corn.
mine, ought to be appointed to go through these details, as a cam.
miller of the whole house would never be able to undtrsrand them.
The difficulties had been inmost ten.fold by the manner in which the
accounts had been confused. The house, by agreeing to this r"olutian,
would appear to be giving 960,0001. to the crown ; whereas, in ro'nt of
fact, the greater part of that sum properly belonged to the pui.lic ex.
penditure ; and it was not, in his opinion, adding either to the dignity
or commit of his majesty, to render him an 'gent to pay away the pub.
Ile money. (Hear, hear.) The proposition of the right hon. gentleman,
instead of improving or clearing the statement of the accounts, only
rendered them the more perplexed and confused.

Sir H. PAKNELL said that it was a great fallacy to suppose that
any saving had been made because the amount of the present was less
than that of the former Civil List. The former Civil List, it would be
recollected, was founded upon an estimate made in 1815. It was, be
though; impossible that the house could come to any vote without a
full enquiry by a select committee, and he hoped the right hon. gentle-
man would not object to that course. The confusion and mixing toge-
ther of that which related to his Majesty in his private and public capa-
cities, was perfectly disgraceful.
Mr. HUME said that the statement which they had heard only in.
creased the perplexity. It was fitting that the house should vote to his
majesty a sum that would ensure his majesty's dignity and comfort,
(hear, hear t) but he (Mr. Hume) thought that the right bon. gentleman
had not adopted the proper course in bringing forward his proposition.
by founding it upon the report of the committee of 1815, as that and
two former reports, made in 1803 and 1812, expressed a regret that the
expenses of the crown should have been increased. As regarded the 4
per Cents. there was no concession at all. The hon. member went over
the various deductions me& in the Civil List, and said that the house
were to perceive from this List that only 24,0001. were given up by the
government. The expense of the Civil List was more for the support of
the aristocracy than foe the necessary keeping up the establishment of his
majesty, vs the dignity of the crown. What had the payment of pen-
sions to do with the Civil List ? and why were they made to form a por-
tion of the list ? A large portion of these pendent were at pleasure.
He should wish a committee to sit to consider these pensions, scarcely
one of which were foe public services. Peers, peeresses, and peers' sons
were pensioned for the purposes of that house. The time was come
when such things should no longer exist : the people wanted a cheap
government, and they ought to get it. The constable of Dover Castle
was. according to this paper, to get 24,0001. and odd per annum. Why,
he would ask, should be get so much money for such a situation ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER explained that the
Duke of Wellington, who was constable of the Castle in question, had
given up the sum alluded to. (Hear.)
Mr. HUMEs Then there is the Mast r of the Hors. Gen only knew
who be was ! (A Member : I know him) (a laugh.) The paper which
he had in his hand was so full of items, that it strongly reminded him
of a tailor's bill. Of the 1,120.0001. voted foe the Civil List of 1820,
only 413,0001. was appropriated for the purpose of his Majesty. It was
most necessary therefore that these matters should come under the eon-
'lactation of a Committee, to see bow far the list in question was Olt was
not a fit mattes to be curtailed. He should certainly vote for a Select
Committee on the subject.
Mr. BROUGHAM agreed with his Noble Friend that the
Civil List was a fit subject to be enquired into by a Select
committee, and precisely on the grounds suggested by his hen. friend
(the member for Middlesex. in 1820 be proposed that such a course
should be adopted with respect to the civil list as was now suggested.
Was it not a strange thing, be asked, that in this great trading nation,
where every merchant felt the great necessity and vast importance of
keeping his accounts in the most intelligible and dearest possible manner
melee suffer the consequence of his neglect; was it not strange, be said,
that in such a nation, that in our public offices, where every thing
ought to be plain, intelligible, clear, and satisfactory, that they
Nid every thing complex, unintelligible, mystified, and most un-
satisfactory ? (hear, bear, and laughter). And this too when millions
weredue, and the interest upon that debt amounted to millions. It
was, as they all knew more important that millions should be better
accounted fee than units: this the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself
knew. (Loud laughter.) It was Elide towards his Majesty to charge
him with expending three or tow times more than be really did. What
was the complaint out it deem ? Why, that our King cost us
1,120,0001. while the Praline of the United States only cost his
country 25,000 dollars, se W. sterling. (Hear, hear.) Now,
was it not most unjust Mesta Ids Majesty to let this go forth to the
public ? Why should he be charged, as by the civil list be was, with
being an expense to the country of 1,120,0001. when, in point of fact,
the actual expense of his Majsty's household hardly exceeded
400,0001. (Hear, hear.) Milton expressed himself its favour of a re-
publican form of government, because he said the trappings of a Mo-
narchy would Stout a Republic. Now all those things that were
serted in the Civil List, which had, in truth, no real connection with It,
were the trappings of which he (Mr. Brougham) complained. Why
were not those things taken away ? Why should they be attached to a
place to which they did not belong? It was unjust, unwise, and impo.
lithe, in a limited Monarchy to continue those things. Their conti-
nuance might lead to the worst results. One word upon the saving to
the nation effected by the plan laid before the House, with respect to
which he must say he felt great disappointment. For instsoce, why, he
would ask, was the annual income of the Duke of Clarence, which fell in
as a matter of course, up= his secession to the Throne, to be taken credit
for by the government, and laid before the House as one of the items.
' Now the speech, which, by the way, appeared to be intended
to mislead rather than guide the nation, as to what was really intended
by the government; who, be would ask, could ever read the King's
speech, and not suppose that when his Majesty was giving up his " he.
reditary and amid revenues without reserve," that he intended to give
lup the revenues accruing to him from the Duchies of Cornwall and
Lancaster? And yet, as it appeared from the right hon. gentleman's
speech, his Majesty intended no such thing. (Hear.) His boa. sad
learned friend, the attorney gams', might, to be sure, tell him, that
these revenues were not hereditary. ( Hear.) "Hear," says some one; no
Ildoubt a lawyer. (laughter.) But they weft revenues accruing to the
Crown, and as such, he did consider that they were to be given up. But
it was either owing to the grossly ignorant manner in which the King's
Speech was drawn up, or the gross ignorance of those who heard it, that
such a mistake as this to which he had alluded had arisen. The King's
Speech had produced not only dissatisfaction, but indignation all over
the country, and he could appeal to any County Member if suck was
not the fact • and under the circumstances, he begged to say that he
hailed with 'satisfaction the proposition that he understood was to be
made by his noble friend, or his right hon. friend (Sir H. Parnell :) he
did not know which it was, who Intended to make it, namely, to retry
the whole of the Civil List to a Select Committee.
Sir R. PEEL rase to reply. ( Mr. Brougham at the moment was
about to lave the house. The right honourable baronet begged the
honourable gentleman would not have the house; just at that moment.
Mr. B. resumed his seat.) He did not ask the honourable and leart.al
gentleman to resume his seat, for the purpose of bearing what he had to
say in reply to the charge of ignorance, attributed to his aujery's go.
vernment ; but as he (Sir R. Peel) was about to bring a charge of ig-
norance against the honourable and learned gentleman, he did set wish
to do so in his absence. The honourable and learned gentleman at.
taibuted :pose ignorance to his majesty's government with re-rot
to the King's speech, and particularly that part of it relating to the
king's giving up his hereditary and casual revenues, thus aggravating
the Public discontent by false statement. Now, what was the language
of King George the 4th to Parliament upon his accession to the throne?
Why, that he would relinquish all the hereditary revenues to which he
was entitled. But did King George the 4th, or Change the 3d, who
said the same thing, give up the revenues accruing from the Duchies of
Cornwall and Lancaster ? Certainly not : (hear. bear.) He therefore
placed the charge of ignorance upon the hoe. and learned gentleman,
and not upon the government of the country.

Mr. BROUGHAM observed across the table, that he really believed,
from the speech, that his majesty was to give up all his revenues.
Sir R. PRIM did not me how such an inference could be drawn,
when tonnes King's spathes were recollected. With respect to the
proposition fora select committee, he should reserve whatever he had so
say on this subject till the matter came properly before the house. But,
in passing, he would remark, that if the Holm of Commons agreed to
11 adopt the proposed course. and examine into envy item connected with
his Majesty's household. it would be adopting a most extraordinary and
unusual mum and one that was not calculated w abases Um dignity
or honour of the crown. (Hear, hear.) The cam adopted b Govern-
ment upon this occasion was that which was usual upon a of the
kind. He saw nothing complex and inesagrwoes about the aschants
furnished. to the house. He dii not sec the improriety misiai
up ankles expenditure for the crown and Wow far the omit* of
the crown. With respect to maims anartalaml ant of dome,
be begged to say that Its wail not kelp Wow Gimp t but nee.
thing could he wan wisegwated thee those otaameenee. Look lbw in.
gawk at a Istise in which the latifais of lime lea
said to tooth* a year he. floremmims trim the fiat trai
that that Nobleman did not twain a single Wide; free the eemitey.
Great weight was attethed to the imam in miteties, eat he mindtted the
etetwonne it otatebeed palmed moth odie. deo In the counay.
Het ite read ehmemer Milt be takes him what be W jut stated.

I

Hew were Government to be accountable for such notions being ehreu.,
laud. Nothing co,,lti prevent interested potions from making those
statements, or ignorant persons from being gulled by them. With res..
pect to the offices of Lord Steward and land Chamberlain, they were
necessary, for the purpose Of keeping up the link between the King
and the Aristocracy. '1 t was miiinitrous to suppose that the Civil List
merely meant the, expense or his Majesty?, Household. With respect
to dividing the items of exi.enditare, he certainly saw a great disadvan- '
!age in such a course of proceeding. The present mode was one that'
hhd the sanction. in addition to other great men, of Mr. Fox. How.
ever. the question was one of grave consideration ; and when the matter
came to be discussed, he should give it his best attention.
Mr. BROUGH A M was glad he had bate detained. He expected
that he should have been proved ignorant, but he would presently prove
that it was not he but the Right Hon. Secretary that was afflicted in
that way. His arguments' were mis-stated ; not intentionally to be
sure' but they were misstated. He charged the last King'* Speech
with being ignorant and ungrammatical, but did he at all refer to any
other King's Speech ? Certainly not. Why then should those speeches
be adverted to at all ? So confident was he that the revenues of the
Duchies of Lancaster and Cornwall were to be given up by the Crown,
that he on the first night in his speech spoke of the " noble surrender of
the King, of those revenues. for the benefit of the people." But if
those surrenders only amounted to what had been given up by the
late King, whose reign nobody but the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer could call economical, how could he call them noble ?
And yet, while he was straining his throat, lauding the King
for giving up those very Duchies, no one said he was mistaken
in his calculations. He expressly adverted to the duchy of Lancaster,
and pointed at his hon. and learned friend, the Attorney-General, who
find been attorney-general for the duchy, and yet not one word was said
against him. Although there were three ministers of the crown pre-
sent when he was saying all this, not one of them opened one little cor-
ner of his mouth to say, " You poor, unhappy mortal ! you unfortu-
nate eight! you are quite mistaken; no duchy of Lancaster has been
given. No ;no such thing. He was allowed to go on. lauding his
Majesty, and not one word was said to set him right. (Laughter.) It
was certainly not his intention, nor did he believe it was his noble
friend's. should a committee be granted, to examine the scullions of his
Majesty's kitchen.
Sir R. PEEL in reply, said that his majesty's ministers on the second
night informed the house, in answer to a question put by the hon. mem.
her for Colchester, that the king did not mean to give up the revenues
of the Duchies.
Mr. BROUGHAM said that that was the first time he ever heard of
this fact.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that as his hon. and learned
friend was in the habit of making very long speeches, he perhaps would
be creused. if he forgot portions of them.
Mr. BROUGHAM.—It is easier to forget than recollect.—
(Laughter.)
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said that he was so used to this
mode of warfare from his hon. and learned friend, that he was not
astonished at an exhibition of it now. He denied that it could at all be
understood, that the words " without reserve," meant the giving up of
the Duchies of Cornwall and Lancaster. His hon. and learned friend
was not justified in his arguments by any Act of Parliament, or any
tormer King's Speech.
Sir J. STEWART denied in the most positive terms that his noble
relative, the Marquis of Bute, received one single shilling for the last
,ixteen years from the government.
Lord PALMERSTON did think, as many others thought, that the
words " without reserve," meant the giving up the revenues of the
Duchies of Cornwall and Lancaster. (Hear, hear.) He regretted that
advantage was not taken of this present period to simplify the accounts
before the House. He thought that it was not for the dignity of the
('rown that charges should be made in the Civil List totally unconnected
with the expenses of the Household. He thought that as the Civil
List contained other matters than those necessarily connected with the
tspenses of the Household, it was a fit subject for inquiry by a Select
Committee. _ _

Sir H. PARNELL gave notice that when the right hon. gentleman
proposed the further consideration of this question, he would move for
a select committee to inquire into the entire of the civil list.
The house then resumed, the chairman reported progress, and obtain.
ed leave to sit again on Monday.
Mr. HUME moved for a list of those persons who received pensions
in England, Ireland, and Scotland.
After a few words from Sir R. PEEL, notice of the motion was
given for Monday.