The Sun.
London, England, 1842-04-20 00:00:00

ppass.that foreigners would come to that House to ask the
,character of British manufactures. If they thought that the
manufacturers were making inferior articles, let them at once
throw open their trade in corn, and there would soon be an end
to it. If they would remedy such an abuse they must widen
the sphere for industry.—(Cheers.) In conclusion, he bugged
o say, that he cordially supported the motion.
Sir R. PEEL—Sir, I am surprised at the tone of the
charges made by the Hon. Gentleman, and further at the tone
lie has adopted with respect to my Hon. Friend, the Member
for Dorchester. He did not know what there was that ren-
dered it incumbent upon his Right Hon. Friend to support
the Corn-law League.—(Laughter.)
Mr. COBDEN—I charged him with cheering.
Sir R. PEEL—Sir, I think such charges as these are miser-
able modes of carrying on a debate in the House of Commons.
—( Hear, hear.) Then it. is said that we on this side of the
House circulated the speech of the Hon. Member for Knares-
borough throughout the country. Now, all I can say upon that
is, that I have never heard of the circulation of that speech,
and that lam not answerable for it. I think that such charges
sire really absurd. 1 thin's it would be much better that these
i
subjects of cheering and smiling and circulating speeches shouli
be disposed of in some other way than in a grave and important
debate in the House of Commons.—(Cheers and laughter. )
This is the first motion of which notice has been given by the
lion. Gentleman, and I am now prepared to state what course
lam ready to pursue with respect to it. lam now
prepared to deal with this question upon the principle
on which I think the House of Commons ought to deal with
it, and I do not think it would be just for the House of Corn..
mons to lend its inquisitorial If
for the purpose of conduct-
ing such an examination. f that were the case, whenever an
Hon. Gentleman on either side of the House had made a charge
against some particular party, the House of Commons would
Ix expected to examine into its truth or falsehood. —(lean )
We are to determine whether the inquiry shall be instituted
-upon other grounds. Now the first proposal of the Hon. Gen-
tleman is to inquire into the existence of frauds in the various
-manufactories of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ire-
land. I should be very sorry to be a member of that Committee.
In the first place, I could not acquiesce in such an imputation
npon the great body of manufacturers in this country. For
the House of Commons to presuppose that the manufacturers of
this country have, without exception, been concerned in the
commission of fraud is what I cannot consent to.--( Hear. )
I have not the slightest doubt that there are frauds committed
in manufactures—l have not the least doubt of it ; and so long
as the world exists, there will be fraud, there will be disho-
nesty, and no laws which you can pass will be sufficient to pre-
-vent it.—( Hear, hear.) The security you have against fraud
as in free competition, and in the preference which, in the long
run, the honest dealer will have over the fraudulent. Precau-
tit ns of this kind, when taken against fraud, very often defeat
themselves. The party who buys the article relaxes in that
natural vigilance and circumspection which he ought al-
ways to exercise.—( Hear, hear.) When I first went
to Ireland I found that there had been frauds in
the butter trade. A butter taster was then appointed ; not a
frkin was allowed to go out until it had first been tasted, and
there was then a stamp placed upon it to show that it was
genuine.—( Laughter.) People then bought the butter, taking
its quality for granted, because it had been submitted to the
butter taster. The consequence was, that frauds were prac-
tised to a greater extent than they had ever been practised
before, because there was a general absence of that caution and
vigilance which had been previously exercised.—( Hear, hear. )
Depend upon it the natural interest of the purchaser is the
.great security against fraud, and another security is that in-
tegrity and honesty all in the long run, both with respect to
the home consumer and the foreign consumer, ultimately sell
the cheapest article, and secure the greatest profit. It is difficult
exactly to determine what fraud is. You call goods manufactured
at Glasgow, at Manchester, and at other places in this country
by a foreign name; you imitate articles of foreign manutac-
tures. These may, in one sense, be designated frauds. It is
quite clear that the knife which is sold for a penny is, in one
sense, a fraud upon the purchaser ; but it is necessary to pro-
duce this cheap article for the accommodation of those who
,cannot give a higher price. Therefore, in the first place, I
:should object to any imputation on the manufacturing interest
.of this country. I firmly believe that in the main it is
exempt from that imputation, and I never could consent to
hold out to other nations that the House of Commons had
thought it neessssary to institute an inquiry into the fraud s
generally of t:ne manufacturers of this country. Now the
inquiry in is'oich we are about to enter, limited as it is by
m}' itight ',lon. Friend, is an inquiry of which I think it is
d flii.ult to foresee the conclusion. I have had some expe-
rience ed inquiries into the effects of the tuck system. It must
be inlanitted that it is desirable, prima facie, to pass a law that
all r ereons should receive payment for their labour in the cur-
re al coin of the realm. But 3ou will find that there are msny
ases to which that principle can scarcely be applied. I think
his Majesty's Government are the largest truck-masters. They
iundsrtake to supply both the army and the navy with mothes ;
taat undoubtedly is an exception. Therefore you must put a
limitatinn upon the principle that reward for labour must he in
the current coin of the realm.—( Hear.) In the course of this
inquiry I have no doubt you will find gross frauds; we cannot
be free from them in the present state of society. —(Cries
of " Hear, hear.") Now 1 cannot conceive anything so
Lad as the eetulect of the master, who in violation of the law
abuses the power which he has over his workmen, by corn-
polling those workmen to buy of him inferior articles at the
till price- I believe you will find that that practice exists ;
and I musts Say
that I cannot conceive a more unwarrantable
.abuse of power. lam very much afraid that the answer is not
a cur pleto :Ind satisfactory ono that where there is a
full demand for labour, there is an end of fraud.
'cause, observe, where the master and the workman necessa-
rily reside in certain localities, the demand for labour may be
larisk, and yet the muster may have an opportunity of abusing
Dsi s pawer over his workmen by the practice of the trues system.
-cif you can expose and prevent that abuse of power,
I shall heartily rejoice in that result. But then
on the other hand, you will find this : You will
furl the caw of a mine opened in a mountainous dis-
trict, and far removed from any town, where the workman has
no alternative, but to go from four to five miles for his
provisions, and hue a reduction made on account of his loss
time ; you will find the case of a master, from a considera-
tion of the interest of their workmen, consenting, at a loss
to themselves, to establish a shop for the purpose a enabl,ng
his milkmen to purchase his lucid -.without going so great a dis-
tance ; you will find that in some cases the charge for provi-
sions is f.ir and reasonable, and that very great advantages
arise from Abe system. If it is contrary to law it ought not to
exist, but you must not be too strict in applying the principle
that the employers should pay their wages in current corn.
Well then, again, with respect to the employers of rural labourer-.
I believe many people look hack with regret to the period
when the farm labourer lived in the same house as his em-
iiloser, believing that there was then a better security for the
mm-als and c.l conduct of the labourer than ued,r the present
eys'em. persons believed from the cesation of that
on:ter NI hi 11 the labourer was considered as part of the
carrely of Ins master; but that practice necessarily implied
tae truck ss stem. While, therefore, no man can reprobate
mon: hit I do the abuse of authority on the part of that
master, who cornue s his workmen to purchase articles of him,
olaalier they be good or bad, and still more who passes off
ai titles, end eampels his workmen to pay for them an
eaorhitant price—whde I do this, I feel it my duty first to
rot iiy to those who have had less experience of the matter than
in)self, that the time when a full anti comprehensive report
will be made is probably a very distant one ; and secondly, to
warn them against concluding too hastily that they can, with
nilsantige to the working classes, entirely put an end to the
pia:lice of paying wages upon what is called the truck system.
fir JOHN GUEST supported the motion, and stated that
in the borough of Monmouth, where there was orse of the
hugest works in the world, there was not a single instance in
whieli the truck system was practised.
111 r. slid COPELAND supported the motion.
A-. E. TURNER said he could state confidently that the
wliela of the wages in the county of Cornwall were paid in
iii,ey.

Mr: VILLIERS said, that es he had taken upon himself to
(-ill upon the Honourable Gentleman opposite to substantiate
this charges he had made, he felt that censistency required
Linn to snppo, t the present motion.—( Hear, hear.) The
Jleneurable Gent'eman had alluded in his speech to the tee-
model which be (Mr. Villiers) had endeavoured to read to tile
.11euse Leon the manufacturers of Yorkshire. Having fiat
Irs.ented a petition, which the Hon. Gentleman objected to,
leseaute tt did not include the parties whom he h,d charged,
he subsequently received one from the Hon. Gentleman's own
district, and that be might know who the parties were he had
pnblished it with their names and residences in a public news-
paper.• Ile thoughteehereeire, that the Hon. Gentleman could
net eveasittetitly withdraw his motion.' • .
Ns, lIARDY did not know if they were to inquire into
f. anis in England and Ireland what tort of frauds they should
are to investigate, but he was certain, if they once began it
teeee would be no termination. Frauds on foreign purchasers
Nv,;11.1(1, in the end, cure itself ; but the other part of the inquiry
teas err!ainly very important—that was the frauds said to he
committed on the people employed by the manufacturers. If
to steers the ca c. it was high time the inquiry should be
made; it W 11.4 due to those who were not represented in that
llnuse. fie knew of instances in which masters had established
shops, -at their own loss, for the accommodation of
their -workmen, to prevent their being oppressed and
cheated by small shopkeepers. In the case of the
hen works, that had been mentioned by the worthy
.Al.lermati behind him, it would be a great convenience to the
workmen. `f he investigation recommended to the Hon. Gen-
tleman by the Hon. Secretary, would be practicable, and he
should vote for such an inquiry. If the Hon. Member went
beyond that he would certainly fail.
IIDWRING said he should not have risen, but for
some of the observations that had fallen from the Hon. Mem-
bsr for Knareshorough. Similar observations had already done
serious damage to trade and commerce, by representing that
the goods of English manufacturers were of an inferior descrip-
tion. some statements of the Hon. Member had been widely
circulated, and used to the injury of their manufactures,
to en extent of which the Honourable Gentleman
might not be aware. Ho. felt bound to state that the
general character -of English merchants and manufacturers
stood as high as.any of the same class in other countries.
Ile bad had opportunities of seeing it placed in advantageous
contrast with, the character of merchants of other countries.
`ll.O lion. Member had referred them to the old and absurd
legislation with regard to manufactures. The Statute-book
wss lull of these interferences with the freedom of trade, and
in many places manufactures had actually perished in cone
seTuence of that interference. What they wanted was emah,
cii etion from enthralment with regard to manufactures, and to
that alone could they trust for safety.
Sir C. BURRELL thought the Hon. Member for Knares-
borough had been completely justified in the course he had
taken, and lie did not think that he was liable to the taunts
that had been thrown out against him. He had done his duty
manfully and fearlessly, and with great honour to himself.
Mr. *I:ERRAND replied. He doubted whether the Stand-
ing Order of the House, which was said to render his second
resolution unnecessary, would be sufficient to protect the work-
ing man giving evidence before the Committee. However,
he should accept the offer of the Right Hon. Baronet with re-
spect to the truck system, and leave the manufacturers to
fight out the question themselves as to the frauds in trade.
They might depend on it that this question would not be al-
lowed to rest, but that from day to day there would be more
urgent demands for inquiry.
The amendment to the resolutions proposed by Sir James
Graham was then put and agreed to.
CRIMINAL LAW (IRELAND).
Mr. Sergeant JACKSON troved for leave to bring in a
Bill to assimilate the law of Ireland, as to the punishment of
death, with the law of England; to abolish the punishment of
death in Ireland, in certain cases; and to establish other pun-
ishments in lieu thereof. The Hon. and Learned Member
stated that one case, in wizich it was proposed to abolish the
punishment
of death in Ireland, was this:—At a time when
they were at war with France, an Act was passed, 'punishing
with death any person, in the service of the Drench King, who
might land in Ireland. He apprehended that there could be no
objection to the repeal of that law.
Leave was given to bring in the Bill.
THE GRINDING ACT.
Mr. HUTT moved for a Select Committee to consider the
ions
expediency of renew;ng any of the provis of the Act of
George IV., commonly called the Grinding Act, and under
what modifications.—Agreed to.
• LOGAN NAVIGATION.
Lord ELICj moved for leave to bring in a Bill for vesting
the Logan Navigation in the Commissioners of Public Works
in Ireland.

IRISH ES.
The NOBLE Loan brought up the Iris Kh
Turnpike Trust Bill,
which was read a first time, and ordered to be read a second
time on Monday.