The Sun.
London, England, 1842-02-05 00:00:00

Mr. HINDLEY asked whether this Bill would control
the money derived from the sale of those lands ? .
Lord STANLEY—The Bill will apply to the money
that is to be realised ; but, certainly not to that which
has been already spent.—(Laughter, and "Hear, hear.")
with A
tgreat
presenti -
he (Lord John Russell) did Trot
terLoestrdtoJtOh think it necessary to
He
statement a tei RUSSELLent o his had Noble
friend.
enter into the details of the measure; but he was very
happy to say that in all its general principles he per-
tectly concurred. With respect to the first question on
which his Noble Friend addressed the House—that was,
-the policy of not attempting any great systematic plan
of emigration on the part of the Government, he (Lord
John Russell) also fully concurred. Indeed, voluntary
emigration was already conducted with vigour enough,
without any interference from the Government being ne-
cessary. The printed returns showed that during three
quarters of the last year there had not been less than
106,000 voluntary emigrants. This, statement he
thought went to show that Government should
not. merely hesitate, but positiiely refuse to
adopt a forced system of emigration. But with
respect to the mode of emigration now carried
on, he (Lord John Russell) must admit that there
were many abuses, in spite of the present regula-
tions sanctioned by that House. Frequently cases hap-
pened in which poor -Irish emigrants embarked
with scarcely food enough for the wants .of the shortest
voyage--and who, in case of any delay in port, or of a
tedious passage through tempestuous weather, accident,
or any other cause, had to suffer the most dreadful pri-
vations.—(Hear, hear.) He had found this to be
too often the case while he had the honour to occupy
the office now held by his Noble Friend. With
respect to the other Bills he had proposed to in-
troduce, the Noble Lord had stated correctly the va-
rious modes by which the regulations had been made
from time to time—first, fur granting ; and, secondly,
for . sale of the land. The great alteration in this
subject was the alteration made by Lord Ripon
and . Lord Howick ; the principle then laid down
that all was to be done by the authority of the Crown,
was the principle now proposed by the Noble Lord. He.
(Lord J. Russell) conceived that it was far more ad-
visable that any alteration in the regulation with respect
to the subject in 1831, should be made by the Crown,
before any measure on the subject was brongTit
forward in Parliament.—(Hear, hear.) He thought,
however, that the time had now arrived
when, after the trial of many of those regulations,
and when several changes had taken place, that
some permanent system ought to be established, and
receive the sanction of Parliament. With respect to the
particular mode in which the Noble Lord proposed to
introduce those regulations, he thought the- time for
making observatioris upon them would more properly be
when the Bill was introduced, and when he should have
been able to have seen the various regulations. He could
not see why New Zealand should be treated in the same
way as New South Wales and Australia, but he would
not trouble the House on that subject further.
He concurred with the Noble Lord in the principles
he had laid down, that all the sums laid out in the sales
of land should not be devoted to the purpose of emigration.
Ile believed, if he understood the Noble Lord right, that
some of those funds were to be devoted for that purpose,
and the others were to be the subject of further
consideration. He considered that that would be the
best mode of settling the question. He concurred in
the mode by which the Noble Lord proposed to intro-
duce the Bill ; but lie was anxious to see the
details of the Noble Lord's plan, and when he
had done so, he should be happy to co-ope-
rate with him by giving his vote in favour
of those Bills which he thought were needed,
and which he was most happy to find it to be the in-
tention of the Government to introduce.
Mr. WARD having so long taken an interest in
this subject, felt bound to express to the
Noble Lord his cordial concurrence in the prin-
ciples he had laid down, and gave him his best
thanks for having, on the part of her Majesty's Go-
vernment, proposed to introduce such a measure—a
measure which, he believed, would be productive of
the greatest good in those parts of the world to
which it was intended to apply.—(Hear, hear.)
It• was most . beneficial that the power of dispos-
ing of land in the colonies should be vested in the
Government, and he for one thanked the Noble
Lord for bringing forward a measure at such an
early moment for systematizing the mode
of disposing of land, and introducing regu-
lations so highly beneficial to the Colonies.
Upon matters of detail there may be differences,
but there never could be a question among per-
sons acquainted with the subject that part of the money
paid for land, whatever that amount might be, should
be devoted to the purposes mentioned by the Noble
Lord, and that the mode of using those funds, as
they had been fornierly used, for purely colonial
purposes, should be altered. A great concession had been
made on this subject, arid one highly beneficial to the
country and the colonies, and be should be glad to
assist the Noble Lord in the object he had in view.
There was a question which seemed to belong
to this subject, though, perhaps, not exactly
coming under it ; yet, as it was not likely that
another opportunity would offer, he should now mention
it. In the Gazette of Friday last there was
an Order in Council, proposing to permit,
under certain regulations therein specified, the ethigra-
tion of Hill Coolies to the Mauritius. in 1840,
Noble Friend proposed a measure of this kind, but tee
House decided against it. Ile should wish to know
if any further infot Illation on this subject had reached
the Government, and if they were prepared to lay that
information before the House ?
Mr. ROEBUCK objected to the principle of the
Bill of the Noble Lord, who seemed to con-
sider that it was the privilege of the Crown
to dispose of the lands in the colonies, which he did not
agree to. Emigrants go to encounter extraordinary diffi-
culties, and they ought to derive from the land they enter
all the benefit they could derive from it. They
go to meet difficulties much greater than those
of other people, and let them, then, in God's
name get all the benefit they can derive from
'the soil they go to' tenant.—(Hear.) He believed
that a really well constituted system of colonization
must commence by defining the limits of the colony;
make them small in extent ; and when each colony has
arrived at a certain number of inhabitants, let the
government be vested in the colony itself, and
then give up all overlooking on the part of the
mother country.—(Hear.) He ob.;ected to the theory
lately broached, that all the proceeds of the colonial
lands ought to be appropriated to emigration. This,
however disguised, was but an additional clause to the
New Poor-law Bill. The Noble Lord, the late Secretary
for the Colonies, had had ample opportunities of knowing
the evils arising from these circumstances, and he
had him Self proposed to the people of Canada
a tax on immigration into that colony, as the
best plan of discouraging the influx of a poor
class of persons to the colony. He spoke with
accuracy on this point, as he read the Noble Lord's de-
spatch, which recommended the tax which he alluded
to. This was one of the circumstances which created
an ill feeling between the people of this country and the
Canadians, but they were obliged to do it in self defence, in
order to prevent being overrun by the poor of the country.
Let the Colonies have their own land to be applied to
the purposes of their own Government, and not as a
premium on emigration to that country.—(Hear,
hear.) He was decidedly of opinion that the
Colonies ought to have their government in them-
selves, and be limited in their territorial extent.
Let the Colonies be limited by some preconceived rule in
their territory and extent. Let them be confined in their li-
init to the extent of possession no more than equal to their
means of cultivation and their wants. But at this early
stage he would put in earnestly his protest against any Bill
by which the proceeds of the Colonies should be made
applicable to English purposes. lie defied any lawyer
to prove that the land of the Colonies in any way be-
longed to the Crown. They belonged to the Sovereign
no more than the highways of Great Britain ;
they were only part of the Sovereign's dominions,
r and were not the property of the Crown, but
the people. If the people of England sent out
colonists, they would be best provided for, and the evils
which .the Noble Lord endeavoured to provide against;
would be best prevented, by enabling the colonists to pro-
tect themselves.
Sir GEORGE GREY having been on the Committee
last year, in which the condition of the colonies was con-
sidered, wished to express his satisfaction at the course
which the Noble Lord had taken in forminghis measures
upon the recommendation of that Committee. He hoped
however, that the Noble Lord considered the question
of the minimum which had the effect of keeping down the
price of land to that level. He wished also to ask the
Noble Lord whether he intended to make any alteratiOn
in the law respecting the emigration of Hill Cwlies ?
Mr. S. O'BRIEN said 'it was certainly a subject cif
congratulation to him to find that the Government had
taken up the present question ; and his only regret was
that they had not introduced a more comprehensive mea-
sure. The proposal of the Noble Lord did not, unfortu-
nately, go far enough ; and for his (Mr. O'Brien's) part
he felt that no measure of the kind would be completely
satisfactory which did not give our surplus population
an opportunity of transferring their labour to other
parts of the empire, in which it would be adequately
rewarded. He also regretted that the Bill was not to
extend to the Cape of Good Hope and the colony of New

Brunswick.
Lord STANLEY said that he had to state in answer
to the question put by the Hon. Member for Limerick,
that the Governor of the Cape did not think the Cape
fit for the introduction of a large number of emigrants,
nor was there any land fund capable of being appliedlor,
the purpose of emigration. The circumstances of the colony
of the Cape, and the small portion of good land compared
with the mountain districts, rendered it impossible
that so effective a system of emigration could be ex-
tended to it as to the colony of South Australia. With
regard to the Order in Council which appeared in the
Gazette, it was true that her Majesty's Government
were of opinion that it was expedient to-prohibit the
emigration from Now South Wales to the Mauritius.
Mr. FITZROY said, in regard to what had fallen
from the lion. Member for Bath, he was extremely sur-
prised to hear from him such statements with regard
to the limitation of the colonies.—(Hear, hear.)
Ile thought the Hon. Member for Bath should make
himself acquainted with the circumstances of the dif-
ferent colonies; before he objected to what had been pro-
posed for their benefit.
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
THE STANDING ORDERS.
Sir G. CLERK then moved the Standing Orders,
which were agreed to.
APPROPRIATION AMENDMENT ACT BILL.
Sir G. CLERK hrought in this Bill, which was read a
first time.
On the motion of Lord ELIOT, certain returns
were ordered relating to e Poor-law in Ireland.
The House adjourned, at Half-past Six, to Twelve
o'Clock to-morrow.