The Sun.
London, England, 1829-03-11 00:00:00

CATHOLIC CLAIMS,

Secretory PEEL brought tip a Bill for the !Wier
of his Majesty's Roman Catholic Subjects from the Ihrahi-
lities moler which they at present labour. The night
Hon. Gentleman was cheered by the House when the name
of the Bill was read.
Mr. PunAm rose to make an observation, but was
Mandible.
Mr. Secretary PEEL was anxious to take that oppor-
tunity of stating the course he meant to pursue. As it
was the understan-.ing last night th it the Bills were to be
introduced that evening, without discussion, he thought it
advisable that as little time should be lost as possille.—
(Hear, hear.)—lf this Bill, and the other with which be
meant to follow it up, were allowed to be read a fit st time,
and printed, he thought he coull undertake that the y
should be in the bands of Members in the course of to•
morrow, and the Bills might be read a second time on
Tuesday next.—(Hear, hear.)—By adopting this course,
no Hon. Member would he pledged to any particular
course with resptct to the principle of the onv measure or
the other.

Sir E. KNATCHBULL thought that the more conve—
nient plan Would be to postpone the discussion until the
second reading.
The Bill was then read a first time, and WAS ordered to
be read a second time on Ttieloky next.
FORTY:SHILLING FREEHOLDERS. _ _

Mr. Secretary PEEL brought tip a Bill to amend the
laws made by the Parliament of Ireland, relative to the
Elective Franchise.
On the question that the Bill be read a first time,
Mr. C. PELHAM said a few words, which were alto-
gether
discussionio us to give f
both -t
but if that interfered with the St. Petrick's Cbarity,which
so rpiAl'rr.t. opportunity
furie‘l %tj lerauyi PitrlE::::gdpLarileml.:everpanysit.i tfiai X: them fur Tuesday next,
took place on that day, it would, perhaps, be debit ah!e,to
change it.
Lord MILTON had conversed with several Irish gen-
tlemen on the subject, and they thought that the 17th of
March. Wilda he a proper day for such a discuassion. Ile
hoped, therefore the day would not be .cliiinged.
Mr. PALLMER wished to know, if the discussion of
. .
both qtystume count be expected to Came
on
the
same day?
Mr. Seeretary PEEL said, that it would be inconve-
nient to fix the second reading of both. Bills for Tuesday
next; but if the discuesion of both could not conveniently
COme'on- on that day, he wonld fix the di,cuesion of the
second for the first convenient open day.
After a few wet& from Mr. MoOre, Lord Duncannon,
Mr. Henry Grattan, and Mr. Peel, it was fixed that the
second readings of both Bills should,for the present, stand
for Tuesday, next.
Mr. LENNARD presented a petition from the Manu-
facturers, . Engineers, Inventors,. and Artists of Malden,
praying for a revision of tke Laws relating to Patents.
Mr. LENNARD ,also presented a petition front Ips-
wich, in favour of the Catholic Claims, which the peti-
tioners thanked the Duke of Wellington for being about to
settle. •
Mr. CAWTHORNE presented a petition from the
town end neighbourhood of Lancaster, against the- Ca-
tholic Claims.
Air. T. GREEN bore his testimony to the respectabi-
lity of the signatures attached to the petition.
Mr. B. COOPER presented a petition from Chelten-
ham and its vicinity against the Catholic Claims. The
petitioners expressed their just fears as to the consequences
of concession. The petition was signed by 4,300 persons,
among whom was a majority of the Magistrates, the Arch-
deacon and beneficed Clergy, and four Dissenting Minis-
ters. The Hon. Member also presented a petition of a

similar kind from the inhabitants of five di&rent parishee
in Gloucester.

111 r. GREEN pre,enteil a petition from thy inhabitants
of Lotulmlale-North, against concessions to Catholics.

Lcrd S I'ANLEY said that when the Hon.. Member
rose to present this
-petition, he felt considerable anxiety,
from which, however, be was released by observing the
quiet manner in which the Hon. Member had presented it.
He believed the petition itself spoke of consternation, con-
tuition, awl dismay, (a laugh) being spread through the
country on account of the intended measures regarding the
Catholics; but the Hon. Member, from his quiet manner,
did not seem to suffer front any of those alarming feelings.
That there was a number of men highly excited upon the
Catholic Question in that district, he hail no doubt ; but
from his own knowledge of the district, be thought he
might say that that was not generally the case.. The de.
Free of excitement to which he had alluded was proved by
the fact that the principal part of the petition wwit the ex
pression of a teish that vain and wicked men might be re-
moved from before the presence of the King.—,(Laughter.).
There was a co: tain Rev. Parsonage in the neighbourhood,
who, on a former oceasion, when this question was under
discussion, having been invited out to dine with a friend,l
who was a Magistrate in the neighbourhood, sent an eirs
cure because he thought that during the prosecution of
mist important and momentous question like this, it was
not proper to go out to dinner any where —(Hear, 114
laughter.)—He trusted that that Rev. Gentleman, note:
that the measure was so near its accomplishment, would
feel the necessity of abstinence of this kind more stronglt
than ever, and would not only refuse to go out to dine
with a neighbour, but would betake himself - entirely to
faaring awl prayer.—( A laugh.).—He believed that this
petition Lad been hawked about from house to house, and
that it hail been carried among- the men working in the'
slate quarries, but with little success; and that out of .a
population of 5,000 only 30 persons had signed it.
Mr. GREEN could not but observe, in reply to his
Noble Friend's statement regarding this petition, that as
there was a great number of signatures to it, and as it was
the third w hich he had presented from that part of the
country, there was a strong feeling there against the mea-
sures now proposed.
Sir F. BURDETT should say nothing against the pea-
_ •
ti'

ion, as he had a great respect for the right of petitioning
at all times, hut he wished to observe, that there were pe-
titions on the other side of the question; and that on Thurs.,.
day night he should present the petition from the Catholics
of [reboil.

Sir G 11. SMYTHE had five petitions to present against
further concession', to the Roman Catholics. He had ne
wish to detain the House with any observations on this sub-
ject, but lie must be permitted to enter his protest against
the indecent haste with which this Catholic Bill was abottt
to be pasied through the Howie.
Mr MICHAEL ANGELO TAYLOR could not un-
derstand what the idon. Baronet meant when he spoke of
there being indecent haste in getting this petition through
the Howe. He was net aware there had.been any haste •‘
in the matter. The measure now proposed •had been' ler
years discussed, and than which. they were called- on Le
adopt was a plan which gave securities that were impreg-
nable, and which proved that there was, on thepart of the
Government, a praiseworthy desire to heal all the anima-
sities of Ireland. It wee the existence of those animosities
that was most to he feared—not the measure that was to
remove them. They were told that the supporters of this.'
measure might look thrward to the General Election with
anxiety ; for that they wonld find they had displeased
their constituents. He might not live tosee that day, but
if he did, he should be able to say to his constituents (if
the Bill pissed into a law) that he had assisted in a great
work of Christian benevolence and Christian charity. Ha
must say, that when he saw from the Clergy of the coun-
try such great quantities of potitione .against this measure,
that those who signed them ned those who brought them
forward did not seem truly to understand the nature '
their religion.
. .
Mr. D. W. II ARVEY.saiti his Hon. Colleague was at
least a plain spokeu person ; and as he thought the Go- e!
vernment would not yield the question, so be also appeared
to think that at an approaching (election the country won't/-
not for2et the course a.lopted by those Members who had--
bctraeed their. trust. He knew not whether his ,lions
Colleague alluded to him (no, no, from Sir H. Smythe);
hut fur himself lie would say, that if a dissolution of Pare -
linment should take place to-morrow, and the excitement
should be so great as to be attended with the loss of their '
seat to any who supported the measure, he should never-,
thelees give his vote in its favour.—(Hear,
one canlil say that he had;. hetrsyed his trust; and if his '
constituents, that is, those who had voted for him, would,-
is a letter sianed by the majority of them, living apart
those other matters on which they had agreed with /34UP
call on him to resign his seat on account of his vete'en
this question, he would not wait the approach of a Geneva
Election to carry their wishes into effect—((hears.),..
lh. would never hold a seat on any other tenure, than thAt
of freely exercising his own judgment on all matters that
might come before the House,—(Cheers.)—He wished to
tike that opportunity of explaining something that ()centred
the other night ; and the mistake connected with which
was one among the many proota of the inconveniences (
an incidental debate. He had stated that this measure
did not contemplate to confer ell the advantage°
which by a more extended arrangement might have been
secured ; and lie apprehended that the want of that sort of
arrangement would leave many sources of dieconteer
among the people or Ireland, and woull disappoint the
Government in their belief that this measure would insure
the tranquillity of Ireland. lle had stated that one of.
the most 1 uiilnl sources of complaint that would 001 re-
main, would be loon 1 in the present state of the Church
Establishment of Ireland, and that no measure was calcu-
lated to do exteosiva good, unless aconnpaniel by wane -
plan to t..ke inter coosideration the eccleeiast'ell revenue
of the two count ice. When he had made these state-
ments, an Hon. Gentleman near hied had assumed a tope
which he certainly hail no right to assume, and haul taken
or, himself the office of Parliamentary Lecturer of these
whase opinions did not harmonize with hie views. Ile
required ne such admonition as that which the Hon. Mem-
is
r had bestowed, for that Hon. Meinher had protested
against the remarks which he (Mr. Harvey) had made'
and hail said that he would oppose the Bill if he thought
it was calculated to affect the revenues of the P.i°ll,
Church. He (Mr. Harvey) thought at the mount
that the boldness of the assertion furnished no weak.,
proof of its insincerity ; and ho thought also, that It
be referred to the Records in which the proceedings
of that Hott.e were preserved, they would shew that
that Hon. Member bad once entertained a different
opinion In 1825, a Motion had been made by him for
a review of the state of the Ecclesiastical Revenues. llosir
he meld support such a Motion, and yet afterwards state'
on this occasion, that belch! so different un opinion, must
be left to his ingenuity to explain. lie begged thiftue
Hon. Member would pursue his own course, and not give
advice to others. His object was as independent al th3.t
of others. lie bad a right to make this explainition,he,
cause, though he did not rank among the most ardent of
the friends of the Church, yet he was a warm and sincere .
supporter of the Eitablietfitiente :aid thought thatall
were should use their utmost exertiors to pees this Bill.
Mr. SPRING RICE said, after the direct alluciort
which had been made to him, the House would excuse hint
if be took the liberty of making a few remarks in reply t°
the observations which liad just fallen from'the Hon. Diem'
tier. They would remember that these observation* had
been made after due deliberation by the Hon. Member for
Colchester, who might better, and more convenientli; Wag
made them at time time. The Mon. Member had adepte
the office which he bad been blamed for assuming,'"
namely, that of Parliamentary Lecturer. In the {rut
inetance, he would appeal to the House whether the
whole course of proceeding of the lion. Member was note
precisely that of reading a lecture? If the• staternear
of that Hon. Member was true, and he (Mr. Rice) ha`i. •
really taken on himself the office of reading a lecture,
he oAulledrrialprepreL,:i
hCoairlicnhgeenteorawnleittiho-en Tot'
apclersuoinretoizlitel;,
sup-
port. The Hon. Member had varied altogether id t",
statement lie had made ? if he had only made one fernier,
occasion the statement Which he had now madeehe (Mr"
Rice) would not, have quarrelled with it; but what sial
the statement he had then made? Why that he supporte"
ie the, h.clll,ied insthoaft r
taheeaCa.ntrleialw ould trail to a c
i as he
Roman Catholics and Dissenters, and others, 'for the Pnt.:a.
otidni:iionnetleYi.
pose of making a combined attack on the 'Establishet:
Church of Ireland. He was unwilling to refer to iv,
had taken place on a former occasion ; but if what pa_
then was to be brought against him, he thought the Kea°
would allow him also to refer to 'it against the lEl°'
Member. If it was on such groan& that the Hole itlenea
bet's vote was to be given, lie (Mr. Rice). as an individuals
' atteched as ha had been, even from his childhood, to the'
cause of the Cetholics, would rather see the Hon. Member,
oppose the measure, than see himself exposed;'lie would not
sly to the disgrace, but the inconvenience of such euprrt'.,
Ile (Mr. Rice) had always been ready to acquiesce r°' a'
motion to inquire into the state of the Irish Church, Trit ,
regard to their leasing preperty—with respect to .thwdat'!'e
feel utiun of tithes—and with respect to educationalicoi
riveted with the Irish church. But if the Hon.' 11fereiteL
,could chew: him 'lMr..ltice) that. Imbed acquiesced la'
sanctioned any deterntination of the sort. wl,ich, that,He°,
Meinher had protested in the late debate,-he would say the,
he had never desired nay such thing. The two queetiool

were distinct and independent of each other; but if there !
'as any connection between them, be would maintain, that
if there was any measure more than another calculated to ;
give Peace to the great body of the people, and to insure,
nthe Prosperity of Ireland,. it was that question which was
ow elder consideration.
Mr. W. HARVEY. said, that on his own statement he
would peeve that the Hon. Gent. had himself supported a ;
motion of the Holt. Metniser for Aberdeen of the very de-
erriptiou he charged him (Mr. •W. Harvey) with having ;
euPPorted. He undertooL, on the presentation of a peti-
thm, to prove from documents in his possession, that the
Hon. Gent. Lad supported a motion of the kind he had
stated, and which was resisted by Mr. Plunkett as having
direct tendency to spoliate the property of the Established
Church of Ireland.
Mr. BUTLER CLARKE said that having attended
choely to the discussion which had just taken Place, he
must Ray that, however the Hon. Member for Colchester
might have qualified it on this occasion, there could be
little doubt that he had said that the settlement of the
Cathelie Question would lead to a consideration of the
emoluments of the Established Church. Now he (Mr. B.
Clarke) who had the honour to represent a Southern
county in Ireland, almost entirely inhabited by Roman
,Catholics, could positively state on the subject of tithes
there was not the least dissatisfaction, The Tithe Com-
mutation Act had enabled the people to get rid of the
evils they had formerly endured. It hail healed all wounds ;
and lie could affirm, that. throughout the county of Kil-
kennY, there was no discontent arising from the collection
of tithes among the e, I
Mr, gnat P
by tare --NL`OW /aid, that if the ohjects aritunmeed
as t Roo and Learned Alenaher for Colchester sere such
he really and
with regard to the Catholic Question,
and the great results to beasce . unplished by its success, he
thought it his duty to distsent as sternly as possible from
being supposed to pat take in the views the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman had
Learn announce Front what that lion. and
anti ed,qentleman had sta:ed, be believed that the Hon.
Learned Geneetnan Really did partake in the views he
hadso announced--namely, that the success of the Catholic
Question was to be prejudicial to the interests of the Eista
'shed-Church. But that Hon. and Learned Gentleman
w'4B that respect single in his opinions ; he was single
among the great body of lion. Members in that House who
preys it forward to assist in the accomplishment of this
Portant measure. Very different were the grounds on which
al
he over. 13.)
bad alwaj a supported the question; for he had
ways distinctly stated that he did so because the Protestant
Church, the Protestant Establishment, and the Protestant
11,:rmitit.titions generally throughout the Empire, and portico-
, Yin Ireland, *ere in the greatest possibie'danger from
troe
tatiteilim. of this question. Ile was sure the Roman
Ch"4"anlies of Ireland bore no hostility to the Established
urch' .a
religious establiihment. The Roman Ca-
olic,
Church,;`( arch. (
had 'no' .interest in overthrowing the Established
Hear, hear, hear.)—He was anxious before
diseriksiort arose to ask a question of the Honourable
bastl7.nber (sir 9. Smythe) who had introduced it, and who
d'it,g_:l4.erved that this -WaEl an " unqualified and uncon-
fZ measure of Catholic Emancipation," and there-
It rvtasat " the eoutury had great reason to be alarmed."
Einanciliilteior ' ad.iiiitted, afull, fair, and liberal measure of
d• and he was grateful fur the Bill, and he
believe the Roman Catholics of Ireland were so. But the
Stilinr:.o llfle,mher was altitgether Wrong in calling it a mea-
Now unconditional • and unqual.fied Emancipation."
~}o there were conditions, and
.very heavy conditions
tratL:irttending this measure, wbich seemed to him-to be
p arson. a conditional 'and qualified measure of Emanei.
T
he Honourable Member had complained of
the Elective Franchise being in the hands of the
I°").-shilii"g Ft 'holder- te- were so ineuenced
1 ors 11 the p • •
""ts, that they were likely to return
nmhhNolotwile:Lto the Protestant Institutions Of the
would remind the Hon. Member that
the great measure of grace and concession was accompanied
Bill for., 'the disfranchisement of those -very free-
f:tinr*""'"‘ helm}, and severe measure; against 'which his
duct KR revolted ; for the forty-shilling freeholders had con-
h ed thernielYes in a manner above all praise. They
he; ',Naked the' danger boldly in the face, like. men.. ;_ and
aq not language to eakeia the admiration he felt
for
ttiee gallant, honest, and independent freeholders of Ireland.
'Jellied. that' they were-priest-ridden. There had been
a Lati°4ltunvernent. The priests had felt the national
-
dl4'd seen which Way the current set—all they had
on,
„was to go with it.
Seeretary PEEL was sure the Hon.. Gentleman
h-e"hid hini for differing in opinion with him, when
Zeatdlhat•tlae Disfranehisemernt-Bill might, be argued
aß,tonadtre'ntirely distinct from it• connection with the
to o'':!Arf' Catholic relief. It was not necessary or proper
had
rirler ss penalty' n the freeholders for what the y
t -"e• He (Mr. Peel), in submitting these measures
" that lani,se, had maintained the great principle of the
equality of civil tights among all his Majesty's subjects ;
and accordingly he had proposed that the principle of dis-
lealineation should be extended to the Presbyter4n free-
holder, and to the member of the Church of England,
es well as to the Roman Catholic freeholder. He en-
treated his Honourable Friend also to recollect that he
had maintained the elective franchise untouched in
the corporate towns, in order that it might not be
!epresented as a measure of inequality and injustice.—
fhere were many minsiderations of the utmost importance
involved in this question. Was there any thing more de-
*'llitle in Ireland than a connecting link between the aria-
ravr and the peasantry? .11y raising the qualification
the elective franchise, many benefits would be con-
of'trt'l on Ireland. Let Hon. Gentlemen look at the state
With of those who now' exercise it, and contrast it
It• "h the effect that would be produced by raising up an
'Pendent 'Pendent and respectable class of voters. He knew the
ti Gentleman Gentleman had not intended to allude 'to him in par-
-`
1,4:4re-irat if the Hon. Gentleman had not rested excht-
this question on grounds on- which it ought not to
avNarily argued, he would not have referred to it.
heew" going` to state the number of 4.05. freeholders
hi ;'°"l,l not name any particular county. It would hardly
;'Sir to select the county the Hon. Gentleman himself
;Presented. But there were returns of Counties in
hog4s", by which the proportion of those of the forty-shil-
t,, freeholderts who could write their names might be. as-
-3,,41. In 'one county, which ho Would not name, of
freeholders, registered in 1825, 19,205 were
an ":mne". In other countieS, where there were 10,000
-'5,000 forty-shilling freeholders, he had no doubt of
hilditg4.tilitle to prove that not one hundred of the 15,000
but
that ,P.i.ed to he registered at their own instance; ;
I:,t`le regiett•ationhad been effected either by some 11-15.
15.
club, or by the landlord, who expected them to vote
„- exact compliance with his will. All these were im-
Portant
mmealier. considerations to be weighed in judging of this
e He would again beg Hon. Members to look at
e d'ate"f the middle and lower classes of Ireland ; and
if
could be satisfied by the evidence of the Roman
r Catlin
and ecclesiastics; if they thought the cause
teligion could be promoted by cutting off' a strong temp-
itht4ll to peijury ; -if they were satisfied of the tendency of
14 measure to raise up a class of respectable..and lode-
tnylent voters, he believed that this would not be deemed
t`iPstiod at which there existed an insuperable objection to
t hstroductien of thith'r
s tneasure, which,uld be productive
thebr roam. of oe ,
Oeietiliffyiintages to Ireland.
hi,!r:lirttoWNl, OW had never
.been so unfortunate in
h. "le asjfr'e had'Keen that evening, if, in the observations
; made, .he had seemed to the House to throw this.
tf:dtit a/16e measure for disfranchising the forty-shilling
' His feeling was, to go along with the Right
4;4* Gentleman. In 1825 'he had supported the Dia-
r'hiliteinent 1111, and lie consideued it a measure
le Istrictly
in'itself, and full of advantages to the people of
lit. d. Next to Catholic Emancipation itself, it was the
te- litefulineasure that could be devised; and he would
.14,1:7henever it came before the House, he would throw
N 41(1,4
iotll.er conaiderationa, and support it.
~.,l_4l.lSitpisHEit COLE, on rising to present a
lafi-nn'eg`ii:itent the' Cathodic Claims, said, that though he
boysher en twelve years a member of
:that 'llotiSe, he had
take Yvt given art opinion on this question. He. should
41): ths't Opportunity of sayitg a few words Upon it. It
tere,arttrt.O' film,- with respectio the measure brought for-
on, by hisMajesq's Government, that it wan argned..en
tr4,,l'ide to be no concession, and on the other side that it
thillg,a 4lllj
-aeCted to any iv' curities. In this state of
PI 41' he theme-let his Majesty's Government were com-
tl,J itlitifled 71)y "'hat they had done; and 'he trusti d
1h,":41,1-recei-ve the utmost support of that House..
'lltre"`" say, that though be supported the general mea-
e,lrii•atict ipproved of the principle of the Bill, yet the so-
Ntiiilie' Were not carried to the extent he had hoped ferd.
Wouldre
offer no factious opposition on this gro:in
dpi • measure, which he believed was calculated to pro-
tr an the i)e!it political effects, and such other consequences,
'le,iY roan with the common feelings-of Christianity would
petitr,'• The Gallant Member concluded by presenting the
teir Ci• SMYTH presented five similar Petitions from
4:41.• KECK presented a like petition from the Arch-
°non and Clergy Of Lancaster ; and another from Horton-
*!ll. &Hill, in that county.
euct!' T. GOOCH, on presenting some petitions from
th,ll4gainst concessions to the Catholics, protested against
in Zay in which..the petitions of the people-were treated
days, Rt House. On the question at large, in a very few
he Woad h., L:- L

Must remark on what h.el 5-,m his Right Hon.
Friend, if he now En ca , him en, but he
felt that he coat respect anti es-
teem he had ally.), •et; !hat 11.ghi G-ni'eman,
though he owbe Ii•• 1.11 longer pot tLe rt! of
full confidence in biro as 1. linerly. The Right 11,x1. Gen-
tleman, in his able and excellent speech i n Thursd4, had
alluded to a nmnbur of lion. Gentlemen who had taken his
former view of this subject, but had done so silently. He
was one of that el iss ; and be could tell the House in a few
wores why he had not 'oftener troubled it with a speech,
bes.aus: he bad looked on this question as a matter too great
f,r him to grapple with.--(Hear.)—The Right Hon. Gen-
tleman had also drawn a comparison between the number
of Members returned on the Catholic 'lnd Protestant sides
from the most populous counties and the largest towns,
awl he had made the numbers out to be nearly equal. But
this was all before the last election. Luck at what hap-
d since the beginning of the Session, when the public
were made acquainted with the intentions of his Majesty's
Government. The only two popular elections were those
of Oxford and Ne :ark.—(Cheers and laughter.)—Yes,
there was another—Carlisle.

After a few words from 11r. D. Davenport, Sir F.
Blake, Mr. Hudson. Gurney, and Mr. Peel,
The titles of the different petitions were read ; they were
from Mildenhall, Hawley, and other places in Suffolk.—
To be printed.
Sir T. GOOCH then presented a petition from Yar-
mouth to the same effeet.—To be printed.
Sir 'l'. GOOCH then presented a petition from the Rev.
Charles Aldridge, in favour of the Catholics. He would
only trouble the House with one sentence from the pcti •
tion : the petitioner sal 1, thpt although he had preached
enough to make old Antichrist ashamed of himself, yet he
was informed that the Pope sat now as quietly in his chair
as be did before the petitioner preached his sermons.—(A
laugh.)—To be printed.
Petitions both for and -against the Catholics were after-
wards presented by Mr: .Stanley, Mr. Sykes, Lord Beetive,
Mr. F. Clinton, Lord Ebrington, Sir G. Philips, Sir T.
Lethbridge, Mr. (l.Pailtner, Mr. P. Pryse, Mr. Kavanagh,
Mr. B. Clark, Mr. Abercrombie, Mr. R. Trevor, Mr.
Hume, Captain Wemyss, and Mr. S. Rice.