The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-22 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY MORNIN_G, APRIL .2 1P45,

would pass. The only objection to the Bill was that the
railway would pass through the New Forrst, which was
uurloubtedly public property, and sip( uld be given for
public purposes.

, • •
(..aptain HARRIS supported the motion.
Mr. G. BANKES regretted that the Board of Trade
had decided in favour of the worst of two lines proposed ;
but rather than have no railway at all he would not vote
against the second reading of this Bill.
Mr. F. BARING t.hcught that the Chief Commis-
sioner of Woods and Forests would not oppose a railway
which had been rccommrnded by the Board of Trade if
there were not strong reasons for it.---(Hear, hear.)
Lord G. SOMERSET was understood to explain, in
the absence of his Noble Friend at the head of the
Woods and Forests, that unless some alteration were
made in the Bill, it would be his (Lord Lincoln's) duty
to oppose it, on account of the injury the railway would
cee sion to the crown larvis through which it would
pass. For himself, he (Lord G. Somevet) %you'd not
vote against the second reading, in the hope that the
alteration would be made.
Mr. COMPTON said that after what had fallen from
the Noble Lord, he would not press his amendment.
The amendment was then withdrawn, and the Bill was
read a second time.

THE NEW COMMJTTEES.
Lord PALMEESTON reported from the Committee
on the railways in group B, that the Committee assem-
bled at twelve o'clock, at which Thomas Wyse, Esq.,
and the Hon. F. F. Berkley were not present, and were
not present for an hour after that time. They,
however, came within half an hour after one
o'clock, but no inconvenience arose from their tempo-
rary absence.—(Loud cheers.)
Lord G. SOMERSET said that as this was the first
occasion on which these Committees had assembled, he
did not intend to found any motion en the report
which had been made. On a future occasion, however,
if such a report were made, he should feel it
his duty to move that all absent Members be taken int 9
custody by the Sergeant-at-Arms ; and he trusted that
the House would support him in this.
Mr. WYSE was not aware of the' necessity of such
close attention to the rules of the House, but as this was
the first time which he had made such an omission, he
trusted the House would excuse him.

Capt. FITZIIARDINGE BERKELEY was equally
of opinion with the rule which had been adopted. He
was anxious to fulfil the duty which the House had im-
posed on him, but he thought that there was a defect in
the rule by which the House wished to proceed.
He was aware that sufficient time was no-
minally given, for there were fourteen days notice of
attendance on toe Committee ; but he bad been absent
from town for a fortnight, and it was not to be wondered
at that such a thing should escape his memory. He
would suggest that some notice should bo given by the
clerk of the Committee, or by some other properly ap-
pointed persrm of the day of attendance.
Lord GRANVILLE SOMERSET slid that as the
Chairman of the Committee itad reported that no in-
convenience had resulted from the negligence of these
gentlemen he did not propose that the House should
take any proceedings respecting them, but he should ob-
serve that the notice of these Committees was
published in the votes on Saturday morning, yet he bad
no objection to such a notice as the Hon. Gentleman
had suggested; and should any further negligence
occur, he should deem it his duty to take some notice
of the matter, and he trusted the House would support
him.
Mr. WYSE believed that the Committees ought to be
attended, and he did not wish at all to shirk the re-
sponsibility which fell upon him as a Member of that
Committee.
Colonel WOOD said that he had receivei two notices
of different significations, and for different purposes, and he
wished to know by which of the two he was to be guided?
Mr. BARNEBY, Chairman of the Committee of
group C railways. reported that Joseph Somas, Esq.
had not been present at the Committee until one hour
after it had commenced its proceedings, but that no in-
convenience had resulted therefrom.—(Laughter.)
Lord G. SOMERSET said that as the circumstances
were the same, the proceedings must be the same as in
the last case.
The matter then dropped.
NEW WRIT FOR LEOMINSTER.
DUNCOMBE moved for a new writ for the
borough-of Leominster, in the place of Mr. Greenaway.

THE DEVONPORT COKE AND GAS BILL.
On the motion for the third reading of this Bill being
made,

Mr. HUME moved as an amendment that this Bill
should be read a third time that day six months.
Dr. BOWRING supported the amendment. .
Sir GEORGE GREY spoke in favour of the third
reading, stating that the question was already decided
by the Committee.
The amendment was then withdrawn, and the Bill
was read a third time awl passed.
PLYMOUTH AND STONEHOUSE GAS BILL.
The Plymouth and Stonehouse Gas Bill was read a
third time and passed.
WEST LONDON RAILWAY BILL.
On the motion of Mr. MANGLES, the West London
Railway Bill was read a first time.
NORTHUMBERLAND RAILWAY BILL.

The Northumberland Railway Bill was read a second
,me. and ordered to be referred to a Select Committee.
BOSTON RAILWAY.
The Bost( n Railway Bill was read a first time.
BARNSLEY JUNCTION LINE.

Mr. STUART WORTLEY presented a petition
against the Barnsley Junction Railway.
Mr DUNCAN presented a similar petition.
GLOUCESTER AND CARLISLE LINE.

Mr. BOUVERIE presented a petition in reference to
.his Bill, but whether fur or against we could not hear.

SOUTH-EASTERN LINE.
Mr. AINSWORTH asked for leave to bring in a Bill
for
thet h
South-Eastern
e formationofalne.
Maidstonei and Rochdale branch
on
GREAT WESTERN RAILWAY EXTENSION.
Sir R. H. INGLIS presented a petition from the heads
of the Oxford University, praying that the House would
sanction the Great Western Railway Extension from
Oxford to Rugby, in preference to the one proposed by
the Birmingham Company.
THE RAILWAY COMMITTEE OF THE BOARD

OF TRADE.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE rose to move, according to
ga
orredsoorl,u tNi oon.
st rwehscici cl h
r et hgeo i
releventhmsietctetei osn
000 f
ns
toatni dein
railway Bills to make a special report of the
reasons which induce the Committees to adopt
or reject the recommendation of the Board of
Trade. In asking the House to concur with
him in rescinding the standing order, he would
state his conviction that the time had come when
the House should understand more particularly what
by
yas
thatthe reolradtieor.
_ (Hear,ninwhich
htehaer.) ComTmhietteesqueoafti!bes
House were placed with the Board of Trade
involved in the numerous Bills upon which the Board of
Trade had to decide affected property to the amount of
one hundred millions sterling,and, four thousand miles
of railway.—(Hear, hear.) By the decision of the
Committee of the Board of Trade the fortune or ,
the ruin of thousands would be determined.—(Hear.) ,
He thought, therefore, that the time had arrived when
the House and the country should know whether the
Committees of the House of Commons should be merely
the puppets of the Board of Trade. It was time it should
be known whether those Committees were to be responsible
to the House and the public, or to a subordinate branch
of a subordinate department of the Government.—
(Hear, hear.)
the railway department of the Board of Trade
was to get through its business.—(llear, hear.)
By this arrangement they would have 23 speeches of
e Ile did not very well know how
counsel for the petitioning parties ; 23 speeches more for
the opposing parties, and 23 speeches more in reply,
and in addition there would be a third party—the
Railway Department of the Board of Trade—represented
by the Hon. Baronet opposite (Sir G. Clerk) who would
have to state the reasons why a particular line was
chosen. The other day the Speaker called the attention
of the House to a clause in the Midland Railway Exten-
sion Bill, by which power was given to the Compan i
y to
make branches, and to take lands without giving notice
to the owners. He had been given to understand that
the Board of Trade had been made cognisant of this
clause, and yet they never drew the attention of Par-
liament to it at all. He contended, then, that in that
case the Board had neglected its duty. He also con-
tended that the Board had acted the part of partisans,
and their reports were totally unworthy of consi-
deration by the Committees on the railway Bills.
Unless it was to put the Committee of this House in
partment
subordination to the railway department, there was no
necessity for passing that resolution at the time it was
passed. He did not see the justice of the power
of
tthhaet
rwoasardvesotefd
Tirnade to G
the railwayate
tie their inten-
tions to report
d,
Bill,' from favourably or unfavourably of any
which very bad consequences arose.
Thu Hon. Member then proceeded to read a list of the
names of lines reported against by the Committees,
and the expenses incurred each day by the respec-
tive parties in each Bill, and contended that it
was not fair or just to have such expenses entailed un-
less the report were favourable to the line. He further
remarked that it was impossible that the Noble Lord
opposite could attend to all the business of the
Board of Trade, and therefore it had become a matter
of necessity to employ subordinates, to whom a
greater part of the business was left.
The Noble
Lord had entered into some explanation upon
this subject by mentioning a coalition that it was
intended should take place between that and an-
other department by which greater facilities for the
dispatch of business would be offered, but no such
coalition appeared to have been heard of at the Board
of Trade. He then called attention to the reports on the
London and York and the Newcastle and Berwick lines,
and said that a main trunk line had been divided
between three different companies on one of their lines,
but the noise kept up by the conversation going on be-
tween Hon. Members on the beaches on both sides ren-
dered the lion. Gentleman almost inaudible in the gallery.
Now if the Board of Trade were to lay down one prin-
ciple of guidance one day and another principle another
day, it would be impossible to place any degree of con
fidence in their reports. They decided in favour
of the London and York, with a view to
the interests of the agriculturists—of the farmers
on the line ; and they proposed to send the
general public, who wished to go direct to York, round
by Cambridge. And why ? That theyy might bring
the traffic on to the Eastern Counties line.
He believed that unless the House was determined to
assert its own dignity, that nothing would result from
the establishment of that Board.
Sir G. CLERK could not admit that the reports of
the Board of Trade upon the railway questions
submitted to them had given dissatisfaction to
the country. He believed, on the contrary, that they
had gi!en satisfaction to all the country except those
persons who have an We interest in the Bills against
which thel3Uard reported.—(Haar, hear.) F or hie part

he V e.ild bear testimony to the ability and assiduity
with wh:ch his Noble Friend Lord Dalhousie had inves-
tigated the queAiem submitted to the C( mmittee under
his management.—(Hear.) The imperfection of the
mode in which railway .Bills were investigated
in the House, where the subject was but
little understood, was admitted upon all hands. In 1839, a
Committee was appointed, the result of which was the recom-
mendation to refer all railway Bills in the first instance to a
Committee of the Board of Trade. The members of the

Board of Trade were subjected to the strong suspicion that
they had enconraged gambling speculations, by communicating
information to certain parties who had speculated in railroads.
Now he would take that opportuni,, of declaring explicitly
and solemnly, that no member of the Railway Board had either
directly or indirectly conveyed to any person interested in par-
tieular railway schemes any information of what the decisions
of the Board of Trade were likely to be, till afteeahe decisions
were publicly made known. The Honourable Gentle-
man referred to the change of value which had
taken place in the London and York and Cambridge lines.
Why, that was the result of speculations on the Stock Ex-
change, totally uninfluenced by anything that transpired from
the Board of Trade. There were three competing lines, and
two of them had coalesced, not in consequence of any sugges-
tion from the Board of Trade, but (as he supposed) from the
consideration that it would he their interest. This having be-
come known on the Stock Exchange, it was naturally conjec-
tured that such coalition would strengthen their claim before
Parliament and the Board of Trade, and this would account
for the rise in the value of their shares. The Hon. Gentleman
had gone at great length into the reason for the Board of Trade
giving a preference to the Direct Northern Railway and the
Cambridge and Lincoln Railway over the London and York
Railway. The reports of the Board of Trade had not been
laid before the House with a view of binding the
House, but merely for the purpose of supplying neces-
vary information, and for the purpose of putting the
House in possession of the opinion of the Board of Trade,
after an examination had been made by them into the schemes
upon which they offered their opinion. These reports were
not to prejudice the interests of private individuals, who would
have full and ample opportunity before the Committee of sup-
porting their views, and of contesting the opinion given by
the Board of Trade. The decision upon the various schemes
was left entirely to the Committees of that House. The Com-
mittees of the House had dealt with reports that came before
them in such a way as they conceived they were called upon
by the evidence before them • but some allowance should be
made for the great number Of Bills that were brought before
them every day, when Hon. Members intended to find fault
with those decisions. Under those circumstances, he did
think that, in furtherance of the views of that House,
he would not be unreasonable in asking the Hon. Member
to define the cases of which he had to complain.
He understood that a charge had been made against the Board
of Trade, of which he was a member, that the reports of the
Railway Department of that Board were not sent before the
Select Committees on the Bills. He (Sir G. Clerk) should
have thought that the Hon. Member for Finsbury, before
making these charges, had well ascertained the reality on
which lie founded his accusation. He would, with the per-
mission of the House, read to that Hon. Member the standing
order upon this subject. It would be found at page 23, and
was to this effect, that every report made by the Board of
Trade should be referred to the Committee on the Bill, to
which it had reference. Under these circumstances, he trusted
that the Hou e would give the experiment a fair trial before
they consented to any of the alterations or improvements sug-
gested by the Hon. Member. He trusted, before the House
gave their opinion upon the question, that they would wait and
see what were the opinions of the Committee upon the sub-
ject. He opposed the motion of the Hon. Member for
Finsbury.
Mr. LABOUCHERE thought the nature of the standing
order had been somewhat misunderstood by his Hon. Friend
the Member for Finsbury, as well as by the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman who had just sat down. With regard to the reports of
the Board of Trade, he was not prepared to say whether they
were really deserving of credit or not; but of this there could
be no doubt—they would receive the strict scrutiny of a com-
mittee of that House, whose report would be laid on the table
before the end of the session, when they would be able to say
positively whether the reports of the Board of Trade were de-
serving the consideration of the House or not. On that ground
he was not prepared to support the motion of his Hon. Friend.
At the same time, he did not regret that his
Honourable Friend had brought the question before
the House, for however ready he might be to admit the ta-
lent and abilities of Lord Dalhousie, an I the other members of
the Railway Department of the Board of Trade, there was no
doubt the Board had committed serious mistakes and errors.
In his opinion, a great error was committed in the constitu-
tion of the Railway Board. It was an anomaly:in the constitu •
tion, and in his opinion it would have been much better if the
Board of Trade had taken the authority and responsibility on
itself. He hoped, therefore, Government would give the sub•
ject their best consideration, and see whether some alteration
could not be made in the present machinery of the Board of
Trade, so far as it related to railway matters. It appeared to
him that the Rail way, Department had, in some measure, mistaken
the objects for which they were appointed. What was the object?
It was this. They were told last year that railway legislation
had reached that point when it was necessary to establish a
tribunal to go into matters connected with railways, which
could not, by any possibility, or without incurring vast and un-
necessary expense, he brought before a Committee of the House
of Commons. Accordingly, powers were given to the Board
of Trade to establish a tribunal of this nature, but it was in •
tended that the Railway Department of the Board of Trade
should be instrumental in affording information to the Com-
mittees, and not that the Railway Department of the Board of
Trade should take upon itself to pronounce a peremptory de-
cision upon any scheme which might be laid before them. In-
stead, however, of this being the case, he could not help re-
marking that this fault run through all their reports, namely,
that they had adopted a peremptory and decisive tone. In
some instances the Board appeared to have entered into certain
arrangements with particular companies, for he found, in some
of their reports, that one consideration for their reporting in
favour of such and such a scheme was, that the company had
undertaken to charge low rates of fares. Now this was cer-
tainly an important principle, but the Railway Boardhad failed
to apply it to all railways alike. For instance, in the case of
the Great Western Railway, no considerations of this nature
appeared to have guided the Board in forming their conclu-
sions respecting the branches promoted by that company, not-
withstanding it already possessed a large and powerful mo-
nopoly, which in some respects militated against the wish of
the public. With regard to the motion before the House, he
certainly did think it would be most unwise and injudicious to
pass a standing order in one session and repeal it in the next.
Mr. GLADSTONE hoped the House would agree in the
construction put upon the motion by the Right Hon. Gentle-
man who had just resumed his seat, because they now stood in
this position—every, one of these reports had been laid upon
the table of the House; some of them had actually been re-
ferred to Committees, and others were about to be referred,
and it was impossible they could he of any value whatever in
guiding those Committeesif they rescinded the standing order in
question. Generally speaking, he considered these reports
were valuable documents, in so far as they opened the imme-
diate question which each Committee would have to discuss.
He therefore submitted whether, at the present moment, it
would not be exceedingly injudicious to make any arrangement
which should withhold these reports from the consideration of
the Committee. He regretted exceedingly that the standing
order in question was not passed through the House till so late
a period of the last session, but at the same time he must
protest against the assertions which some Hon. Members had
made, that the order was smuggled through the House. The
subject generally extended over the whole session, for he believed
the first motion made was for a Select Committee to inquire
into the best mote of railway legislation. That Com-
mittee was immediately afterwards appointed, and,
so soon as its labours we re brought to a
close, a Bill was framed and brought in, founded
upon the report. He entertained a very different opinion to
that of the Right Hon. Gentleman who last addressed the
House respecting the appointment of the railway department of
the Board of Trade. It was quite impossible for the Board
to have taken the duties and functions of the Railway Board
upon itself, because its duties and sphere of action was already
sufficiently extended without adding to it. Then, again, the
appointment of the Railway Department of the Board was
purely of an experimental character, and if errors had been
committed, they were errors of a remedial tendency, but, at all
events, without the assistance of such a Board, it would have
been quite impossible for Government to have got through the
vast mass of railway business which had sprung up
within the last six months.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.")
He thought that the Hon. Member for Finsbury was prejudg-
ing a question which was not yet in a fit state for decision.—
( Hear.) The Hen. Gentleman said that they ought to have
limited a certain company to a maximum of charges. But it
appeared to the Board of Trade, that the case in question was
not one to which the principle of a maximum ought to be ap-
plied ; nor, indeed, could the principle apply equally in all
cases. Every case should be considered on its own peculiar
circumstances; and in some cases it would be for the advantage
of the public to fix a maximum of charges, whereas in others
there could be no limitation without a risk of putting an end to
the works altogether. On the whole, he thought the House
ought not to prejudge the question as to the efficiency of the
railway department of the Board of Trade. It had been ad-
mitted that their reports were drawn up with great ability, and
although he did not agree with them in all their de-
tails, he thought it would be unwise to interrupt
their progress, after all the inconveniences had been gone
thought, and the House was about to reap the advantages.—
(Hear.) He thought that nothing would be more unwise than
at this moment of time to attack the reports as a whole, in con-
sequence of alleged errors in respect to a particular line ; and
it was admitted that any errors which had been committed
were errors of judgment, no malversatiou being alleged. He
thought that any allusion to the reports on particular lines—
such for instance as the London and York—ought to be
avoided at the present time, when the reports were going into
very stringent examination in the Committees, where they
would be subject to the hostile scrutiny of wealthy parties.—
( Hear.) There could be no doubt that when the reports
were against the justice of the case they would be rejected. He
thought that it would be dangerous to go into the subject at
this moment—and he would :not express a wish that the House
would reject the motion, but that the Hon. Gentleman would
withdraw it.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. GISBORNE could not agree with the defence set up
by the Right Hon. Gentleman who last spoke, for the conduct
of the Railway Committee of the Board of Trade. The re-
ports of that department were the last patch upon our patchwork
of railway legislation. The Board of Trade had volunteered to
do that patchwork. In the evidence before the Committee of
last session all the witnesses from the Board of Trade stated
that they alone could do this business, and he believed the con-
sequence would be that the Board would engross the whole
power of railway legislation. He believed that the reports
would have great influence on the judgments of Committees of
the House, and that in all doubtful cases they would follow the
advice of the Board of Trade. But was the manner in which
the Board despatched the business sufficient to entitle them to
that confidence 10—( The Hon. Member then quoted from a re-
cently-published pamphlet a statement to the effect that the
Railway Committee of the Board having 2,500 Bills before
them in September, made up their judgment upon inspection of
plans and examination of surveyors' statements, and then pub-
lished the official report in November.) The ingenuity of man
could scarcely devise a more certain means of error.—(A
laugh.) They did not hesitate to decide against the general pi in-
ciple of competing lines.—(Ne, no,) But the fact was that
the public were already deriving the advantage from the fear of
competition—in reduced fares and improved accommodation—
so much, that we heard very little now of the complaints which
were so general a year ago. He could not approve either of their
decision respecting the compulsion of parties to complete their
lines whether they could or not.—( Hear, hear.) There was
one line, now in existence ten years, which had been able to
advance no farther than thirty miles from want of public sup-
port. According to the Board of Trade, that company should
be compelled to go on, though they might sell to a richer com-
pany able to carry on the works. If they offered the line for
sale they would be in the condition of the negro pig- dealer.—
( A laugh.) The negro offered his pig for sale to a white,
who would not have it because it was a little one.—( A laugh.)
" Yes, massa," says the negro, " him be little, but him d—.-_
old.''—(Laughter.) He thought the statement of t. e Railway
Committee on another matter was quite as funny.—( A laugh.
They stated that of two lines to Harwich, which they called
A and B, they preferred A; but as there was a Peer in con•
nexion with the line, they sent to the Admiralty,and the Ad-
miralty sent back (they did not say whether a porter, or
how) that they preferred line B. The Board of Trade
preferred it also. Having seen how the Board did
their duty, and how little pains they took to arrive at a right
analusitni, let the Home look to the nest gip. 11 2
ey pub.

lashed the reports two months before the meeting of Parliament.
Now, they said that it vr as not intended that the report should
have any effect upon the value of shares. Why, then. was-it
published in the Gazelle Ulf ar.) What other effect wool
the publication have, but to raise some shares and depress
others? And the fact was so. It was known that shares

which had been at a discount rose to a premium, and others
which had been at a premium fell to a discount. If this depart-
ment of the Board of Trade was to exist, he thought the Go-
vernment ought to give it a Parliamentary and
Legislative character, and not the licked up one it at present
had. If the House was to place it under come legiflative eon-
troul, he had nn objection to its existence.—( Hear. )
Colonel SIBTHORP believed that the Board that had been
constituted on the subject of raik aye, which be deitested_
(Laughter)—was most unconstitutional, and led to more
gambling transactions than any institution that had ever been
introduced into the country.—( Hear, hear.) They were worse
than the gambling transactions that took place during the time
of the rage for lotteries.—( Cheers. ) He was not sure whether

:he people had not gone more mad on the subject of railroads
han they had with respect to 1 tterieF.—(llear, hear. ) At
east it was enough for him to say that his experience, and that

vas nut small, justified him in a;serting that on no suloject had
he ever seen so much foolery displayed or ,o much money

squandered.—( Hear, hear.) He aipr;hended that the most
serious consequences would result from these schemes, and
that they would ultimately tend to the injury of every good
proposition.—( Hear, hear, and laughter.) For himself, he
was glad to confess that he was free of railways—( Laughter)
—and he had always been of lotteries.—( Larghter. ) He
meant to keep so. He thought that in most cases the
(Onion of the Board of Trade with respect to railways had
been, if not most erroneous, at least defective—( Cheers. )
He believed that the gentlemen who formed the Committee on
railways in the Board of Trade were men of the highest in-
tegrity—( Hear, hear)—but if the Hon. Member who had
brought forward the resolution had made a motion impeaching
the Government for appointing such a Hoard he would have
supported him.—(lfear, hear.) It might be con-
sidered selfish on his Fart, but he must confess
he ehould like to see every Member of that House
brought to the table, and asked upon his solemn oath whether
or not he was connected with railways ?—( Ilea-, hear.) It
he thought railroads wou!ci benefit the public, no man would
he more forward thin himself to support them ; but, believing
that they would have an opposite effect, he would most deter-
minedly and strenuously oppose the motion.—( Hear. )
Mr. BERSAL considered that great gratitude was due to
the Hon. Member for Finsbury, in bringing forward the present
motion, as he thought that great benefit 'would result to the
public from it. Much had been sa'd en the constitution of
the Committee on the Board of Trade on railroads—he would

not say much on that subject.—( Hear, hear, and laughter. )
How that experiment would turn out it was impossible for him
to say, but he would express a hope that it would be success-
ful, and that the railway projects it had approved of would be
carried out.—( Hear, hear.) But at the same time he could
not but express a hope that the enormous speculations that
were now going on with respect to other lines would be put
an end to; because it must be apparent to all that in the
speculation! that were taking place, nobody contemplated as
they ought to do the ruin that was likely to ensue from such
speculations.—( Hear.) He did not augur so favourably of this
experiment as others (Id. lie wondered how the Board of
Trade were. enabled to do even what they had done. The
Hon. Gentleman then proposed an amendment, that an humble
address be presented b Her Majesty, that she may be pleased
that all documents and statements relating to any ra lway Bill or

project be laid before this House, and that the proposals of every
such Bill should be presented to the House, and that the coun-
sel and agents connected therein should have leave to inspect

all such statements and documents.

Lord HOWICK agreed with his Pon. Friend that they
would be greatly indebted to the Hon. Member for Finsbury for
bringing this motion before the House, as it was one of great
importance and ought to be well considered. He agreed with
the reasons which had been assigned by Hon. Gentlemen for
not pressing the original motion of the Hon. Member for Fins-
bury, as he (Lord Howick) was of opinion that the Hon. Gen-
tleman bad not correctly read the standing order which he
wished to have rescinded. He thought that the offer which
had been made by the Right Hon. Baronet opposite to lay
these documents before the House would be a most valuable
concession, and one which his Hon. Friend should be perfectly
satisfied with. The Right Hon. Gentleman the late President
of the Board of Trade said, that it was premature to discuss
the manner in which the duties of the Board of Trade should
be performed. He (Lord Howick) thought that the reports
of the Board of Trade were calculated to carry great weight
with them, and a great deal of injustice would be done by their
entertaining any prejudices againq any party. And, in order
to do away with such injustice, they should care,ully look to
the conduct of the Board. 'I here was no blame to be attached

to any individual member of the Board. There was no doubt
that they had performed the duties entrusted to them ; and he
would go further, and say that they had shown considerable
diligence and ability in the performance of those duties. But,
notwithstanding that, he was bound to add that those duties
had not been satisfactorily performed—not from their
fault, but because they had imposed on them duties
which it was physically impossible for them to perform.—
Now, without casting any blame on any individual officer, it
was proper for their own sakes that this question should be
brought distinctly before the House. He would take this op-
portunity of saying that the manner in which the reports were
drawn up, and the result of their itiquirie., were entirely un-
satisfactory. With regard to carrying on proceedings in the
Board of Trade, they were told that the Board of Trade had
received statements from the parties concerned, and that the
opposing parties had not had submitted to them the
statements of the opponents. They had so opportunity of
pointing out the errors fallen into by their opponents, or
their misstatements or misrepresentations. Interviews had
taken place, in which only one party was heard. Was this a
proceeding which was likely to succeed in eliciting the facts of
the case? How was it possible that the Board of Trade, re-
ceiving statements from certain parties, not exposed to the
scrutiny and examination of those against whom they were
directed—how was it possible that they could correct the
errors and ascertain the misrepresentations contained in those
statements? And if they looked into those reports they would
find that there were direct and palpable blunders in point of
fact of serious importance. He would not go through many
instances of the kind. There was a petition en the table com-
_ _ . .

plaining of the Board of Trade, with reference to their pro
ceedings in connexion with the South-Eastern Railway. In
this petition there was a distinct allegation of material errors
fallen into by the Board of Trade; and the parties were so
confident that they could prove those errors, that all they asked
was, that they should be allowed to have the matter referred
back to the Board of Trade. The Hon. Member for that part
of the country (the Member for Maidstone) made a motion to
that effect ; but the Right Hon. Member the President of
the Board of Trade declined all discussion on that point. The
Board of Trade in that instance, in comparing two different
liner' stated that one line had considerably heavier earth-
work than the other, but it was capable of proof that that line
which was represented as being of heavier work was actually
much easier. It had also been stated in the petition that the
Board of Trade had recommended a certain line in consequence
of the cheapness of the fare, but at the same time forgot to
state in the report that another company had offered to
brine the fares still lower. These were facts
which it was essentially necessary to point out to the considera-
tion of the House for its guidance in the adoption of Railway
Bills. Thee had pointed out to them two circumstances
which should be particularly attended to. The first was—
when a long line of railway ran into one having a short
traffic, as such junctions produced fearful collisions, and was
attended with great danger, there was a recommendation
from the House that a statement of that fact should be
given by the Board whenever it occurred. There was another
objection—railways passing a public road ; and it was a stand-
ing order that every case of that kind should be distinctly
pointed out to the House, as it was considered most essential
to the public safety. put, notwithstanding these recommenda-
tions, in the South-Eastern schemes, where there existed 21i
crossings of public roads, including in these crossings four in
the populous town of Deptford, none of these facts were ever
noticed or pointed out by the Board of Trade. He held in his hand
a railway communication from Scotland, in which it was begged
to direct the attention of the Committee to a level passing over
a road which might be considered one of the most public streets
of Glasgow. These were omissions of material facts, which
made the reports of the Board of Trade most unsatisfactory, and
most unfit to direct the judgment of the House. He could not
help observing, on coming to look at several of their
reports on railway Bills, that they were, as in the cases
just mentioned, perfectly inconsistent with each other. What
in one case they deemed a matter of the greatest importance,
in other cases they over passed without the slightest notice.
They very often decided right, but it generally happened that
every point which made against the railway which they recom-
mended, and in favour of that to which they objected, was en-
tirely kept in the back •ground, and on the other hand every thing
which could be urged in favour of the line, and against those
who objected to it—every such point was placed in the strongest
light in which it was possible for an able arrangement to put it.
These were the inconsistencies contained in the reports of the
Board of Trade, and they might be thus accounted for, for he
found in the minutes which were laid upon the table, that the
general nature of their decisions showed that they came
to those decisions long before they made their reports.
The usual course was to publish the announcements of the
proposed lines in the Gazette, and when the Board of Trade
had announced their decision, they went on to other cases,
and then drew up their report. and it did so happen that in
many such cases those in favour of the line carried it; and,
therefore, the Board of Trade were naturally induced, in the
absence of all opposition, to report in favour of that line, and
it followed that the Committee reported in the same
way. The Board of Trade must, in all instances, bear
in mind the statements they had received, and on these alone
should they make their reports. He was the more convinced
that this was the fact because he found that in one of the
cases reported on by the Board of Trade, that report was
founded upon a speech made by a shareholder at a meeting
entirely in favour of a certain line.—( Hear.) Therefore, he
would say, that he did think that the grounds he had stated
warranted him in coming to the conclusion that the reports of
the Board of Trade had been framed in the fallacious manner he
had endeavoured to describe. However, he was willing to admit
that the blame did not rest quite so much upon the Board of Trade
as had been imagined, for the officers of that Board had re-
peatedly stated, that it was physically impossible for them
to sift out from the vast mass of evidence before them, suffi-
cient facts to warrant them in coming to a satisfactory conclu-
sion upon any particular case. On these grounds, then, he
would say, that it was wrong in some measure to make the
Board of Trade subservient to that House. He did not mean
elsewhere,
observed
but b
ethe
ftsouslatywthheartothitemreis;tr,egnrootatfaerulotsartoo
sbehofuoludnd
be in matters
where the public interests were deeply concerned, and that the
views of the Board of Trade should not be hastily or rashly
taken up by the House or the Committees of the House.
And he would also contend for it that the House should not
entrust the Beard of Trade with such an amount of power and
responsibility as they had hitherto exercised. The House
should have proceeded much more cautiously and guardedly
than they had done in such projects. If they intended to make
such changes as had been suggested by his Hon. Friend, the
sooner they withheld a portion of the authority now vested in
the Board of Trade the better, for it was preposterous to sup-
pose that it ever could have been contemplated to invpeesrttytlso.ef
Board of Trade with the power of the disposal of pro
such a vast amount as that which they now enjoyed. From
the course that had hitherto been pursued by the
Board of Trade, it would appear that the House
had been framing rules and regulations to very little
purpose, because the Vice-President of that Board had al-
mitted that they had gone much further in the exercise of
stheoiurldf,unbcuttioantsthtehasanmtehteirrLieegtihslaat Right
had ever intended t
hadhe y
h
htHon. Gentleman
stated that the Board had found it impossible not to go.beyond
the line marked out by
limitthe fLegislature. To this he would
rHepoluysethtoateltlhßeroeardwsassulatfhpoi:rhoi.eituyt concedededdidb),
the
db by
House,t he
anda 'Comnfoitteea
beyond which they should not go.
regulations then all he could say was that tlyiis HouesxeceLdtbheeene
making rules to very little purpose. He ( Lord Howick) con-
ceived that the duty of a Committee on all subjects con-
nected with railway matters was to weigh well the rea-
sons laid before them that would warrant them in reporting
in favour of the line ; and to report accordingly to the
House. On these grounds then, he would say, that he
cordially concurred in the motion of the Hon. Member for
Finsbury, and hoped that the House would concur in making
the necessary amendments in the present system.
Lord G. SOMERSET said he entirely concurred with the
Noble Lord opposite, in se far as the present business of the
House in railway questions should not be transferred to any
other tribunals, but at the same time be should say, that
he never considered the decisions of the Railway Committee

c.f. of the Board of Trade, as binding upon
that Ilou•e. Ile (Lord G. Somerset) was willing to admit that
he had been in error in reference to some technical points,
and, therefore, he would wish to know whether it was the in—
tection of the Hon. MemLer for Finsbury to press his motion.
He (Lord G. Somerset) understood that the Hon. Member
intended to withdraw it : if not, he (Lord G. Somerset)

tbould certainly say he had a great objection to it.
Mr. HA WAS said he had read one of the reports of the
Board of Trade with considerable eare—l.e alluded to the report
on the South- Eas,ern schemes. A more inaccurate and more
careless document had never i:Aied from any public body ; and
yet they had been told that these documents were intendedto guide

the decisions of the Houle. Why such documents a outdo:only
mislead the House•. The Board of Trade had asfurned the

position of advocates and partisans. What was contained in
the circula- letter that had been issued to the Parliamentary
agents? There was one part of that circular which the Right
lion. Gentleman opposite had entirely omitted to notice. The
passage to which he (Mr. Hawes) referred was a. follows—"I

am directed by the Lrrds of the Committee of the Privy Coun-
cil for Trade to call your attention to the course of
proceeding with regard to railway Bills intrusted to your
care, which will become necessary in order to give effect
to the supervision of the Board of Trade over such Bills
during their progress through Parliament." Why was
it intended that the Board of Trade should have
the supervision of railway Bills, when they were before Par-
l'ament ? He would be glad to have this matter examined into.

By the existing arranie'rnent of the Board of Trade, parties

who wished to submit information to the Board, pending an
inquiry, were prevented doing so. It was quite clear that
such a tribunal as that, acting, as it necessarily must, with
great precipi;ation, could never give satisfaction. It might
be said to those who objected to the Board of Trade, " What

other course would you propose ?" He did not think it was
necessary to answer that question. He thought that there was
great objection to the transfer of the business of that House to
a Government Department or Board. Another objection which
he had to the Board of Trade was, that they did not make any
reference to the locomotive system on railways, as compared
with the atmospheric system, as in the case of the Newcastle
and Berwick railway. Altogether, he thought the functions of
the Board of Trade we►e most objectionable.
Mr. BECKETT DENNISON said he had been averse to
takituc any part in this discussion, simply because the London
and York Railway, in which he took considerable interest, bad
been reported against. He would, therefore, reserve much of
what he had to say until after the Committee on the Bill had
completed its labours. He had the most perfect confidence that
the Committee would do justice to all parties. and if that.

.....
Committee should come to the same conclusion as the Board of
Trade he would be one of the first to bow to that decision. His

lion. Fi lend the Member for Finsbury had made a pointed
allusion to a conversatitot which his Hon. Friend the Member
for Finsbury had had with him (Mr. Dennison). He cer-
tainly had said that he was in a condition to prove that four
days.before the Gazette Caine out respecting the London and
York Railway, it was very generally circulated in the City,
and letters went into the country conveying the intelligence
that the London and York Railway would be repotted seating,
that the Cambridge and Lincoln would be reported of favour-
ably, and t at the Direct Norther') would also partially
be reported in favour of. When this was mentioned to him
he said the latter part of the story was a most
extraordinary one ; that the Direct Northern, which professed
to be seven miles shorter than the London and York line, should
he cut off at Lincoln. Why did that company make such an
Arrangement if they had not previously known what was to be
the decision of the Board of Trade? It was quite clear that
they had some foreknowledge of the fact. He was quite ready
to prove what he had stated to his Hon. Friend. He was
ready to produce persons at that bar who would state that they
were in possession of this knowledge on the Saturday preceding
the Gazette which announced the decision of ' the Board..
He could easily understand this, because by going to the
Board of Trade, and putting questions, the answers
to them might give a hint as to the coming decision.
He had been in communication repeatedly with the officers of
the Board of Trade, and he cored safely state that he never.
went fur:her than to lodge a statement with them, and he
considered it to be his duty never to ask a single question re-
specting either the London and York Railway, or any other
railway which the Board might have under their considera-
tion. He was upon the Railway Committee that sat last year,
and which recommended that Railway Bills should be sent to
the Board of Trad,. His Right lion. Friend the President of
the Board of Trade had stated mist accurately that
it never was the intention of that Committee that
the Board of Trade should rule the decision of that House.
He believed, however, that the Board of Trade had far ex-
ceeded the duty which had been intrusted to them. He could
prove that the report respecting the London and York Railway
was inconsictent with itself, as there were contradictions in
various parts of it. He therefore said that it would have been
much better if the Board had confined itself to considering tbe
written, statements which had been sent in to them by the pro-
moters
of the different lines. He believed that conversations
had been held with the Board of Trade, by which a
knowledge could be obtained respecting the decision that
was about to be made. He thought that the Gazette, which
contained the decisions of the Board or Trade, for or against
a railway, ought to be accompanied simultaneously with the
report of the reasons for their decision. Atter the report ap-
peared in the Gazette, it was customary for parties who had
been reported against to make representations to the Board, to
induce them to make some alteration in their reasons for
coming to the decision which had been announced in the
Gazette. Lie said that it was not fair or just. The report of
the Board had in many instances been compiled from stale-
ments which had been submitted by the favoured or success- •
ful parties. lie had been in conversation with a gentleman
with respect to one of those reports, and upon his doubting RS
a,:euracy the gentleman replied, " Oh, do not doubt it, for I
drew it up myself."—(Laughter. ) The Board of Trade there-'
fore were c.impelled to became the advocates for or
against a railway. Now with respect to the fu•
ture proceedings of this Bill he should take the
liberty of suggesting a mode by which a great deal of dissatis-
faction which existed with respect to the Board of Trade, might
in future be prevented. He thought the Board of Trade might
perform the duty of the Classification Committee, and refer in.
groups, to the Committees of that House, the various railways
that came before them. lie believed that if their functions
were confined to this they would give satisfaction, but this not
being the case, hit conviction was that, the reports, as they were
at present drawn up. would. in many instances, puzzle the
Members sitting on a Committee, and render them no assist-
anee whatever.
Sir G. STRICK L.k ND said he believed that the Committeee

of that House, to whom the management of Railway Bills was
referred, hail done their best to lay down rules by whieh an in.
justice might net be done immedia•ely. He was sorry, how-
ever, to think that both landed proprietors and speculators io
railways had received great injustice by means of the legis-
lation of that House. The effect of the reports of the Board
of Trade, instead of lessening that injustice, had greatly aggra-
vated it; and he trusted the House would, before they sepa-
rated, re-consid.r their rules and regulations, with a view
to their revision. The Board of Trade had lost sight
of the public interest in their decisions.—( Hear, hear.)
The Railway Board had favoured small schemes, which cut up
the country without showing any regard for the interests of the
landed proprietors, and which would never pay any profits.
He would support the amendment of his Hon. Friend below
him, and he hoped that after this session the reports of the
Board of Trade would be entirely put an end to, or that it
would be differently constituted.
Mr. G. BANKES said that he had come to the conclusion
respecting the Board of Trade which the Hon. Gentleman who
had just sat down had come to. The reports of the Board of
Trade had favoured the large companies who possessed so much
influence, and those persons who felt themselves injured by
their proceedings could not obtain attention to their com-
plaints. Ile thought the Board of Trade had greatly
exceeded the powers which it was the intention
of Parliament to give them. He lately saw a re-.
port of the Great Western Company, in which they stated
that the Board of Trade sanctioned an agreement between their
company and another company ; but he had never thought that
that House had constituted that Board a board of reference. It
was evident that they were assuming to themselves a regular
and permanent authority. He begged leave to call the atten-
tion of the House to one case of considerable hardship which .
had been already brought forward in another place. It was
the case of a lady of rank and fortune, but, unfortunately for
her, she was opposed to a powerful company, who had said
that they could command 100 votes in that 'House. She re-
monstrated against a railroad passing within 100 yards of her
man-ion, and expressed her dislike at it ; but the day after the
agent or surveyor of the company called on one of her tenants, .
and on his declaring that he would be guided by this lady,
this agent or surveyer induced him to sign a paler, giving
his consent, on the representation that this lady had assented
to the railway, which was contrary to the fact.—( Hear, heu.)
Now, he believed there were many cases of that kind. And
in the instance he had mentioned, when a remonstrance was,
made, she was told that she must get used to railways as
other persons —(t Hear," from Colonel Sibthorp.) In the
case of another person who had to deal with this very company,
when he found no other means to avail him, he took up thee
surveyor under the Wilful Trespass Act, and had him fined 61.
—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") He thought that the Board
of Trade had too much power, and lie should vote for this •
amendment.
Mr. COLQUHOUN said that it was rather surprising that
not a single Member had risen during that debate to bear
his testimony in favour of the Board of Trude, except.
indeed, the Vice-President of that department—( Hear)—
who, however, only ask of them to suspend their judgment till
after the reports. He thought that there ought to be either a
preliminary inquiry into the subject, for he had doubts whether
the Board of Trade was not unwisely constituted. He thought
it gave an impulse to dangerous and imprudent speculations
and to call on the House to say they were satisfied with the
Railwaypepartment of the Board'of Trade as at present consti-
tuted was unreasonable. He would vote for the amendment
which had been proposed.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE replied. He would withdraw his
own motion in favour of the amendment of his Hon. Friend
the Member for Weymouth, which was one of the resolutions
he intended te propose himself to-morrow. He should like to
get an answer from the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir
G. Clerk) to the question which had been already put to him—
namely, what was meant by the power of supervision given to
the Board of Trade over the reports of Committees of that House?
What right had the railway department of the Board of Trade
to send for documents to Parliamentary agents, relating to
particular lines? When they had laid their report on the
tahle of that House their functions had ceased, and they had
no right to further interference—they had no rig ht he repeated
to interfere with Committees of that House in any manner ;
any such interference or supervision was an impertinent
assumption of authority, which the Legislature never
intended they should possess. Throughout the discussion
not one Member had attempted to defend the course pursued
by the Board of Trade. On the contrary, it clearly appeared
that these reports were of no more value than the paper on
which they were written. The Right Hon. Gentleman the
President of the Board of Trade (Sir G. Clerk) had attempted
to defend them, and he could say very little for them. Great
alarm and jealousy had been excited in the public mind by these
reports, the worthlessness of which was now fully ascertained.
The business of the house had been thrown back a full month by
waiting for these reports. He felt obliged to the Hon.
Member fur 'Weymouth for kis amendment, which he would
adopt, and withdraw the original resolution.
Sir GEORGE CLERK said that, with respect to the super-
vision, it was recommended by the Committee of the House,
in which that department of the Board o; Trade had origi-
nated. One duty of supervision was to considet- the various
schemes presented; the other to point out te the litalSe the
,
introduction of any new clauses which might affect the Isaiah('
interest. The communication of the Board of Trade with OW
Parliamentary agent was necessary to prevent clauses of an
extraordinary nature being introduced into the Bills.
Mr. DUNCOMBE wished to know what right the Board
of Trade had give such directions to Parliamentary agents?...
(Hear, hear.) " If orders had to be communicated they ought
to issue from that House, and not from the Board of Trade—
( Hear, hear.) In point of fact, they had no right whatever
to issue such orders—( Hear, hear.)
The original resolution was then withdrawn, and the amend"
went put, and carried without a division.
Mr. WARD presented two petitions, one in
t bfavtouerEoufteruthie,
Eastern Counties Railway, and another agents
Union Railway.

AIAYNOOTH.
Mr. S. CRAWFORD said that he had given notice
that, at some future stage of the Maynooth Bill, he would
move a re,olution against all State grants for Ecclesiastical
purposes ; hut he found that he could not do so at any stage el
the Bill until it was reported by the Committee, whet he
would do so.

Mr. LAW gave notice that, in Committee on the Maynooth
13111, when the question was put as to whether the appropria-
tion should be made out of the Consolidated Fund, he would
move that the several sums payable for that purpose should not
be paid by the Commissioners of the Treasury out of the
Consolidated Fund.—( Hear, hear.)
FIELD GARDENS BILL.—THE GAME LAWS.

Mr. BRIGHT said that when the Field Gardens Bill was
in Committee he would move a clause empowering the holders
of allotments to snare and destroy game.—(Laughter.)
Lord GRANVILLE SOMERSET. in answer to a question
from Mr. Morris, said he would, on Thursday next, move a
resolution respecting the Railway Act, which would quite meet
his views.