The Sun.
London, England, 1829-06-06 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS.—(LAST NIGHT.)
STOCKS' DIVORCE BILL.
Counsel were beard and witnesses examined on
this Bill. After which the LORD CHANCELLOR
stated that the evidence adduced was quite sufficient,
and moved the second reading of the Bill, which
was accordingly done.
MESSAGE FROM THE COMMONS.
Sir ALEXANDER GRANT and others brought up
the Sugar Warehousing Bill, Irish Arms Bill, the
Division of Counties Bill, Cotton Factories Regu-
lation Bill, Justice of the Peace Metropolis Regu-
lation Bill, togetker with several Private Bills.
The Earl of MALMESBURY presented a pe-
tition from Cambens ell, in Surrey, praying that
they might be excluded from the operation of the
Metropolitan Police Bill.
Lord DURHAM presented a petition from St.
Martin's, against the London Bridge Approaches
Bill.

The Archbishop of CANTERBURY presented
a petition from a Hundred in Kent, against the
Anatomy Bill.
The Earl of HAREWOOD presented a petition
from Mr. Thomas Wakley, the Editor of the Lancet,
against the passing of the Anatomy Bill.
EAST INDIA TRADE.
Lord ELLENBORO UGH laid on the table the
papers respecting the East India Trade, which the
Marquis of Lansdowne moved for a few days ago.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said, that in
pursuance to the notice he had given, he rose to pre-
sent petitions from some of the most important
commercial towns in England. It was not at pre-
sent his intention to enter into the subject fully, as
the Noble Lord at the head of the Board of Con-
trout had been pleased to lay on the table papers
relative to the evidence hereafter to be laid before the
House. If that information should be complete, and
he had no reason to doubt that it would be com-
plete, it would comprise an entire view of the terri-
torial and commercial revenue of the East India
Company ; of the trade between the possessions of
the east India Company and the United Kingdom;
of the private trade of merchant-adventurers from
this country to the dominions of the East India
Company ; of the trade of merchants of other
parts of the world with the East Indies; of the
exclusive trade enjoyed by the East India Company
with the dominions of the Emperor of China ; and, as
far as could be obtained, a view of the trade enjoyed
by other countries with China, not governed by the
same rules or confined by a similar monopoly as this
country. Upon all these subjects he trusted the
Bowe would have complete information before it pro-
ceeded to legislate on so important a subject. But
it was his duty to state now, that when the House
had obtained all the information the Noble
Lord at the head of the Board of Control
should be able to lay before it, it would be
matter of information far short of those which were
necessary to enable the House to legislate OH the
condition of India. It would depend on the mea-
sures that this and the other House might adopt for
the government of that country, whether its trade be
successful or not. It was only by collecting oral
information, or individual information from that
country, that the House would be enabled to come
to a sound conclusion. He trusted the House
would lose no time in gaining this information
which he hoped by the next meeting of Parliament
they would be enabled to obtain. With these ob-
servations he begged that the petition of the town
of Liverpool might be read at length. He should fol-
low up that by presenting petitions from various other
towns of the first commercial importance in the coun-
try. The Noble Marquis then presented petitions to
the same effect from the merchants of Wolverhamp-
ton, and from the Chamber of Commerce (Ireland)
to the same effect.
Lord GODERICH postponed his notice of mo-
tion from to-night till Thursday, respecting Shipping
and Navigation.
Lord SHAFTESBURY presented a petition
from his Royal Highness the Duke of Cumberland
at Earl of Armagh, claiming his right to vote for
the Representative Peers of Ireland. The petition
was referred to a Committee.
The Marquis of LASSDOWNE moved for
several additional papers respecting a free trade to
India.

ANATOMY BILL.

Lord CALTHORPE moved the order of the
day for the second reading of this Bill, when
The Archbishop of CANTERBURY said he
did not rise to postpone the Order of the Day for
the second reading of the Bill, but to express
his hope that the Noble Lord who had under-
taken the management of it, would not push it
through the House during this Session. He was
fully aware of the situation of society with respect
to the subject to which this Bill referred, and of
the necessity there was of afording additional faci-
lities for dissection to the anatomical student. No
observation could fall from the Noble Lord
on this subject in which he would not fully con-
cur. But the proceeding he had to propose was,
that the Bill should now be permitted to pass
through a second reading, upon an understanding,
that it should be carried no further this Ses-
sion, and that next year measures should be
introduced providing in a less objectionable
manner for the supply of dissecting rooms, which
should effectually preserve the bodies of the dead
from indignities, and secure to them interment in
eon-eerated ground, and with religious rights.
Lord CALTHORPE could not wave the second
eezding of the Bill to-night, nor accede to the sti-
pulatiozi Proposed by the Learned and Rev. Prelate.
Appalling e;:eumstances connected with this subject
rendered the neces:_ilY imperious of having a measure
passed without delay. He hoped their Lordships
would not only consent to tile. 29-cond Tiding of the
Bill, but that they would agree to con;:der in Cm'
mittee the best means of rendering the me-. 7 "ire
as
unobjectionable as possible.
The Earl of MALNIESBURY was desirous to
know if the Noble Baron meant to press the Bill in
the present session % If such were the intention of
the Noble Baron, he should feel it necessary to state
his objections to the Bill then.
Lord CALTHORPE said that the Noble Earl
would have an opportunity of stating his objection
on the motion for going into Committee.
The Earl of MALMESBURY said, that as he
objected to three out of four of the provisions of.,
the Bill, it would be uncandid in him if he left it to
be supposed that he had any hope that the Bill,
could be made unobjectionable in the Committee.
He objected also to the principle of interfering with
the bodies of persons who had not offended against
the laws. He begged again to ask if the Noble
Baron meant to press the Bill in the present session,
for if such were the intention of the Noble Lord,
he should go into his ob'ection now; but if it were
intended to postpone the Bill till the next session,
he should, as lie wished to avoid discussion, say no-
thing upon the measure.
Earl GREY said that impressed as he was with
the great benefits which would be produced by this
sill to the community at large, but more especially
to the poor—with these opinions, and with these
impressions, and being moreover fully sensible to all
the inconveniences that might result from delay, still
iie did feel inclined, if his advice could have any
weight, to advise the Noble Baron to accede to the
proposition of the Right Rev. Prelate, under the
understanding that something would be done in the
next session to remedy the inconveniences which re-
sulted from the present state of the law, and that,
in the interval, Noble Lords would turn their atten-
tion seriously to the subject, with the view of de-
vising some plan by which the object of the Bill
might be effected in a less objectionable mode. lie
regretted that the Bill could nut be carried into a
Jaw in this session ;- but, under all the circum-
eta/ices of the case, he thought the course proposed
would be found the most advisable.
The Earl of HAREWOOD begged to take this
opportunity of obcerving, that with respect to the

horrid and outrageous proceedings at Edinburgh,
which had been alluded to that evening, it was a
disgrace to the cpuntry that they had not been in-
vestigated more fully, and that the public had not
been informed of the result of the investigation.
All that the public knew was, that fifteen or sixteen
murders had been committed, mid he must say that
he thought the public mind ought to be satisfied.

The 'Duke of WELLINGTON was extremely
glad that the Noble Baron had consented, as he
understood he had, to proceed no further with the
Bill in the present Session. He approved so strongly
of the object which the Noble Lord had in view,
and of the principle on which the Noble Lord pro-
fessed to proceed, that if the measure had beer] dis-
cussed, it was his full intention to have supported
the second reading, and to have done all is his
power to amend the Bill in the Committee.—
(Hear, hear.)—Why he was glad that the Bill was
to be postponed was, that he was aware of the op-
position that would be raised to it, and of the quar-
ter from which that opposition was to come; and
knowing, too, how much influence that opposition
was likely to have upon the country, he could not
help feeling that it was extremely desirable that such
effects should not accompany the measure as it
passed into a law. He was delighted, therefore, that
the Bill was to be rostponed, and although he could
not take upon himself the task of bringing forward
a measure upon the subject, yet he would willingly
co-operate with any Noble Lord who should bring
forward another measure, even on the principle of
this Bill, to get rid of the horrible evils which were
produced by the present system.—(Hear, hear.)—
Unless they could increase the number of subjects
for dissection, they would do nothing. The first
thing, then, to be done was this—but it could only
be well done by being done in the way which was
least objectionable to the feelings and prejudices of
the people.—(Hear, hear.)—With respect to the
observations of the Noble Earl (Harewood) upon
the subject of the Edinburgh murders, he could only
observe that the most diligent investigation into
those horrible transactions had taken place, and that
punishment had been inflicted where the laws of
the country allowed the infliction of punishment.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE was sorry that
the, Bill was to be postponed. When another mea-
sure was brought forward, he should certainly pro-
pose that that part of our law which directed that
the bodies of malefactors shaulil be given over for
dissection should be repealed. He trusted that early
in the next Session some measure would be brought
forward on this subject.
Lord 4 TODERICH regretted that the Bill should
be postponed, and trusted that the Government
would take the subject into their own hands.
The Earl of HADDINGTON had also to re-
gret the postponement of this measure. He begged
to observe, in answer to what had fallen from the
Noble Earl (Harewood), that the dreadful circum-
stances which had taken place at Edinburgh had
been probed to the bottom. As the monster Burke
could not be brought to punishment without the
evidence of the monster Hare, it seemed very likely
that these were the only persons concerned in the
murders.

After a few words from the Earl of HAREwoon,
and the Earl of HADDINGTON,
Lord TENTERDEi begged leave to draw their
Lordships' attention, for a few minutes, to this sub-
ject, which he considered to be one of very great
import. That the state of the law, as it now exist-
ed, was susceptible of improvement, he did not mean
to deny; hut he thought that whatever alterations
or amendments it might be deemed necessary to in-
troduce in the law, ought to be effected by a mea-
sure exceedingly different from that now before
their Lordships. It was not his intention to state,
in detail, his objections to this measure, but there
were one or two points to which he most strongly
objected. He could not see the necessity of that
part of the Bill which went to enable a Secretary of
State to establish as many schools of anatomy in the
metropolis as he might think proper. In Paris, he
believed, there were but two schools of anatomy.
Whether that number was sufficient for this great
metropolis, he could not say; but he would not
place such a power as that to which he had alluded,
in any hands whatsover. He felt another, and a
very strong objection, as to some of the regulations
of the Bill : for instance, it was proposed, that the
bodies of the destitute, of the friendless, and of
those who had none to help them—of those who
were compelled to take refuge in our hospitals and
public institutions—it was proposed that their bodies
should be given up for dissection. Now, he be-
lieved that those individuals felt the most uncon-
querable objection to the dissection of their bodies ;
and he did not think that the feelings on this sub-
ject would be in the least degree removed by
the consideration, that, subsequent to dissectkii.
their bodies would be decently buried. One argu-
ment, which was strongly urged in favour of the
measure, was, that it would prevent the recurrence
of such crimes as had lately been committed in Edin-
burgh. Now, he thought that what had already
been done, would, in a great measure, effect that ob-
ject : because he knew that proper attention would
in future be paid, so that professional men would at
once discover whether subjects that were brought
to them were the victims of barbarity or persons
who had died a natural death. Trusting, therefore,
to the feelings of the profession, the members of
which he considered as a humane and honourable
set of men, he had every reason to believe that such
vigilance and attention would hereafter be manifested
by them, as would effectually prevent any trans
' action similar to those which had recently been dis-
covered from again taking place. He wished to
know whether this Bill was to be read a second time
and to stop there, with an implied pledge on the
part of their Lordships, that a similar measure was
to be sanctioned in the next session; because he
begged it to be understood, that as an humble mem-
ber of that House he could not consent to such a
proposition. He was perfectly ready to concur in
any proper measure, having the same object in view,
but he could not agree to have it effected in this
particular way. In the last session of Parliament a
noble Marquis (Lansdowne) had proposed to re-
peal mt.. .. .
clause in a former Act of Parliament, which
directed that
the bodies of murderers should be
given up for dissection,and he had this evening
timated his intention, when :."v measure of this na-
ture came before the House, to
feet that alteration in the law. Now he Ter:-

terden) must say that he would look at a proposi•
tion of that kind in a very different point of view, if
it formed part of a general system, from that in
which he would look at it if it stood by itself.
Lord CALTHORPE could not avoid expressing
his surprise at the oppesition to this Bill. All he
could say was, that, by the postponement of this
measure, more injury was likely to be inflicted on
the feelings of individuals during the interval be-
tween this and the next Session, than could possibly
happen if the Bill had been agreed to.
The Bill was then withdrawn.
METROPOLIS POLICE BILL.

The Duke of WELLINGTON, in rising to
move that the Metropolis Police Bill be committed,
said, that it was not necessary for him to detain
their Lordships with many observations. There
could be no doubt—and every Noble Lord who
heard him must be aware of the fact—that no
branch connected with the administration of public
justice in this country was so deficient as the police.
This was clearly proved by the great increase of
crime in the metropolis, as appeared by the returns
laid before a Committee of the other House, by
whom this subject was investigated in the course of
last year. It appeared from those returns, that in
the last six years the total number of criminals
committed for various offences had increased to the
amount of 2-sths. The commitments in London
and Middlesex in 1822, were 2,539; in 1825,
2,902; in 1828, 3,516; thus making a positive in-
crease of 2-sths in 1828, as compared with 1822.
This proportion did not arise from the prevalence of
any particular crime, hut it prevailed inalmost every
species of crime which was ordinarily perpetrated
in the metropolis and its neighbouring districts,
during the same period. [ln support of his position

the Noble Duke here contrasted the number of per-
sons committed in 1822 fo;.the different crimes of
burglary, assault with intent to commit rape, rob..
bery on the highway, &c., with the number of per-
sons committed in 1828, for the like offences, but
so indistinctly, that it was not possible to catch the
numbers accurately.] It was perfectly clear to him,
and to all who had considered the subject, that this
rapid and extraordinary increase of crime arose
wholly from the deficiency of the police. Their
Lordships must know that the state of the watch in
most of the parishes of the. metropolis was most in-
efficient. Indeed, nothing could possibly be more so.
And though the state of the watch was thus con-
fessedly inefficient, yet, from events which had re-
cently occurred, he believed it was well ascertained
that the watch was exceedingly expensive to parishes.
He might say that they were almost as expensive as
they were inefficient.—(Hear, hear.)—lt was very
evident that the present system required great and
extensive alteration ; for although numbers of rob-
beries, burglaries, and crimes of all descriptions oc-
curred almost every night in various parishes of the
metropolis, yet it appeared that no effectual mea-
sures were taken to prevent the recurrence of such
outrages. Indeed, a list might be formed of parishes.
in the neighbourhood of the metropolis where there
was absolutely no protection for person or property.
—(Hear, hear.)—ln the metropolis itself—in 'West-
minster—where there was a watch in every parish,
the system was so badly arranged, that in fact there
was no co-operating communication between the
watchmen of one parish and those of another; and
even in the same parish there were frequently dif-
ferent watch establishments, governed by different
local authorities. In one parish, that of St. Pancras,
there were no less than eighteen different establish-
ments formed under different Acts of Parliament,
not one of them having any communication with an-
other. The consequence was, that the watchmen
of one district were content with driving thieves
from their own particular neighbourhood into that
which adjoined it. But there was no doubt what-
ever in his mind that it was perfectly practicable to
prevent, in a very great degree, the commission of
crimes by a new regulation of the police. Many of
their Lordships must recollect what used to take
place on the high roads in the neighbourhood of the
metropolis some years ago. Scarcely a carriage
could pass without being robbed, and frequently the
passengers were obliged to fight with, and give
battle to, the highwaymen who infested the roads.
But such a thing as a robbery committed by a man
mounted on horseback was now never heard of.—
This change had been effected by an improvement in
the police system; and their Lordships must be
aware that it was easy to establish, even in the city
of Londe's itself, a watch so framed as to prevent the
commission of crime and outrage. There was an-
other point to which he svi,hed to call the attention
of their Lordships, and that was, the desire which
so generally prevailed throughout the country, to
diminish the number of capital punishments,—and,
indeed, to soften the severity of punishment in all
cases. Now, the best mode of avoiding the
infliction of punishment, was to prevent the
growth of crime ; and the Legislature would
do away the necessity of frequent punish.
ment by adopting a measure of this description,
which would place an efficient police in the hands
of the magistrate. The measure then before their
Lordships had for its object to form a new police-
office for the metropolis, and the surrounding dis-
tricts; and under the powers of this Bill, it was to
be an office which would have the whole direction
of the new police, two justices being appointed to
carry on the business of the office, under the Secre-
tary of State for the Home Department. The pro-
visions of the Bill might, if circumstances rendered
it necessary, be extended to places in the counties
of Middlesex, Surrey, Hertford, Essex, and Kent,
not enumerated in the schedule annexed to the Bill,
to the distance of twelve miles from Charing-cross.
rhe justices were to have no power beyond what
was necessary to protect the peace of the country,
and to carry this measure into effect. It was pro-
posed by this Bill that a body of constables should
be raised, and placed tinder the particular direction
of this office. It was intendedrat first, to restrict
the operation of this measure to a small number of
parishes, and to extend it, by degrees, to such other
parishes, not named in the schedule, within the dis-
tance of twelve miles from Charing-cross, in which
such an alteration might appear desirable. The ex-
pense of paying the patrol, &c. was to be defrayed
by a rate, in the same way_ as the poor's 'rate, but
not to exceed eight-pence in the pound. These
were the leading points of the Bill, and lie now
moved " that it be committed."

Lord HOLLAND did not mean to offer any ob-
jection either to the principle or the details of the
Bill; but there was one point to which he wished to
draw the attention of the friends and the support-
ers of the Bill, which he conceived was worthy of
consideration. By this measure, he understood that
the same rate would be levied on lands as on tene-
ments, which would inflict a great hardship on the
outstanding parishes. In some instances, he be-
lievd, the rate would be as high as three shillings an
acre; and, in his opinion, the principle was hardly
equitable. It was scarcely just to levy the same
rate on those who had lands arid no houses, as en
those who possessed houses, since it was obvious
that the latter would reap the greater benefit from
the Bill.

Lord DURHAM did not wish, more than his
Noble Friend, to offer any captious objections to
this Bill, but still he was desirous of making a few
observatiens on the measure. What he objected to
in this Bill was, the inconsistency of its preamble, as
contrasted with its provisions. It appeared, from
the statement of the Noble Duke, and also from
that of the Secretary of State for the Home Depart-
ment, so far as they could judge of it from the irre-
gular way in which those matters were made public,
that the principle on which the measure proceeded
was that of uniformity of action. The preamble
said, " Whereas offences against property have
latelyincreased in and near the metropolis, and the
local establishments of nightly watch and nightly
police have been found inadequate to the prevention
and detection of crime, by reason of the frequent
unfitness of the individuals employed, the insuffi-
ciency of their number, the limited sphere of their
authority, and their want of connection and co-ope-
ration with each other; and whereas it is expedient
to substitute a new and more efficient system of po-
lice in lieu of such establiAments," &c. Now, after
this preamble, he certainly did not expect to find in
the very next passage a provision- to limit the ope-
ration of the Bill, and to exclude from it one half of
the metropolis, namely, the city of London. He
wished to' know whe;ber the police who would be
formed under the new system, in any given parish,
would be obliged to afford their assistance in other
parishes, where the same system did not prevail,
and where the rate was not paid, He should also
like to know whether the new Magistrates would
in any way interfere with the establishments of Bow.
street, Hatton-garden, &C.
The Earl of MALMESBURY agreed with the
Noble Baron opposite (Lord Durham) that the
operation of this Bill should have been extended to
the city, and if he were a citizen, he should object
to it, because the city did not come within the
scope of its provisions, since the consequence would
be, that it would make all the thieves *ssemble in
London, as an asylum.
The Duke of WELLINGTON said, that with
respect to the Noble Lord's objection, that the Bill
did not apply to the city, he begged to state, that
the understanding was, that the same plan as that
on which the watch of Westminster, or rather of
the metropolis, would be formed after this Bill had
passed, would be adopted in the city. As to the
Noble Lord's question on the subject of the duties
of the new magistrates, he begged to inform him,
that the office about to be created for the directiori
of the police of the metropolis, was an office for the
superintendence of that specific
establishment alone.
Lord DURHAM said, that one portion of what
had fallen from him had been misunderstood. On
referring to the 13th page of the Bill, a clause would
be found, the operation of which was to throw the

support of the new police upon the poor-rates of the
parish in which that police should be introduced.
Now he wished to know whether such police would
be liable to do duty in the adjoining parishes which
might not be tinder the operation of this Bill, and
which, in that case, would derive all the benefit of
the new police, While the entire burden of its sup-
pert would be thrown on one individual parish.
The Duke of WELLINGTON said that such a
police would certainly be liable to be employed in
every parish in the district.

Lord DURHAM put the case of six parishes,
one of which might have come under the operation
of the Act, and it would be thus charged with the
entire burden, while the benefit would be shared in
common with it by the five remaining parishes.
That, he conceived, would be a great hardship.
The Duke of WELLINGTON
.understood that
it would be optional on the part of parishes to ac-
cept or refuse this Act.

The Earl of ELDON merely wished to express
his concurrence in what had fallen from the Noble
Baron (Durham) and the Noble Earl (Malmesbury)
as to the lateness of the period in which Bills of
such importance were brought into that House.

Lord DURHAM had never intended to make it
a matter of charge against his Majesty's Govern-
ment that this Bill had been introduced into the
House at this late period. His complaint referred
generally to the lateness of the period at which a
great number of important Bills were usually sent up
to that House, and he conceived that an arrange-
ment might be made with the other House of Par-
liament, so as to obviate that inconvenience. The
principal cause of this influx of business at a late
period of the session into that House was to be
found in a rule of the House of Commons, that no
Money Bill could originate but in that House. He
had reason to know that many Members of the
House of Commons were anxious that that rule
should be done away with, so that Money Bills
might originate in either House. Some arrange-
ment of that kind, he conceived, might be effected,
so as to divide the public business between both
Houses.
The House then went into Committee on the
Dill, and the House having resumed, the report
was agreed to, and the Bill was ordered to be read
a third time on Wednesday next.
On the question being put for the second reading
of the Offences against the Person (Ireland) Bill
(as we understood),

Lord CARBERY suggested the propriety of
postponing a meas►►re of such importance as regarded
Ireland, on account of the late period of the session
not allowing of sufficient time for its consideration.
The Earl of WICKLOW said, if the Bill were
now read a second time, there would be ample time
for discussing its provisions in Committee.
The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered
to be committed on Wednesday next.
Several Bills were then forwarded a stage.—Ad-
journed.