Star.
London, England, 1808-03-12 00:00:00

a transaction which took place wlsile he held a high I
and distinguished official situation in another part of
the United Kingdom. He wished for an opportunity
of vindicating himself from those calumnies to that
House and the public, and therefore begged to know
whether it was necessary for him formally to move
for papers relating to the transaction alluded to, or
to make any specific motion upon the subject ;—or
whether it w3iild be merely sufficient to state the
matter to the House ?
Earl BATHURST suggested the propriety of the
Noble Earl's making a specific motion, and fixing a
day for that purpose.
[ The Earl of HAItDWICKE proposed Monday

next.
The Earl of LAUDERDALE observed, that his
motion upon the commercial policy of the late Orders
in Council stood for that day.
Earl IjATHU RST suggested the propriety of the
Noble Earl (Hardwicio) bringing on his motion to-
morrow.
Lord GRENVILLE observed, that he should then
move that the House be summoned to-morrow.
Earl BATHURST replied, that he should with-
plraW any opposition to the question coming forward
on Thursday, sooner than give the House the trouhke
of being summoned to-morrow.
After a few words more from the Earls of HARD-
WICKE, LAUDERDALE, BATJIURST, and Lord aItEN-
VILLE,
Lord LAUDERDALE moved, that the order for
takinginto consideration the commercial popsy of
the Orders in Council on Monday next, be discharged,,
and fixed for Wednesday, in order to give Lord Hard-
ricke an opportunity of bringing on his motion.
His Lordship then read the several propositions
which he meant to submit to the House on that night,
all of which were declaratory of the pernicious ten-
dency of the Orders in Council in a commercial point
of view.

DEBTOR AND CREDITOR.
The Order of the Day, for the second reading of
the Debtor and Creditor Bill being read,
The Earl of MOIRA rose, to declare his motives
for bringing forward this measure. He assured the
House he was not actuated by any popular fee'ings
or motives ; for upon this question the tide of popu-
larity must ever run against him, although he was
the advocate for a most numerous but unfortunate
class of persons ; and it was a firm conviction in his
own mind of the necessity and utility of such a mea-
sure that induced him to persevere in bringing it
forward. The descriptions of debtors which this
Bill was intendid to embrace were of two different
kinds ; the one was the debtor confined upon mesne
process ; the other, the debtor in execution. By the
present practice of the Court of King's Bench, and
the other Courts suing out mesne process, the writ of
one term was made returnable the next ; and the
party were liable to be arrested and held to bail to
any amount, upon the mere affidavit of the creditor,
who had until the next term to file his declaration, or
by application to the Court, might enlarge the time
even for two terms more ; so that for the space of five
terms, an unfortunate debtor, under the present'
practice, must remain in prison, before he even can
know the nature and precise amount of the demanct
against him. This related to the debtor of the final
description, who has no remedy, without even the
benefit or allowance of meat, drink, or even a bed
to lie
,on, except through the mercy.or huManity clf
his keeper • and thus many honest end industrious
men are thrown into gaol, with this extreme quantity
of penalty pressed upon him, before any thing is
proved against him, and he is deprived perhaps for
ever of the means of discharging the debt. The
rendition of the other class, namely, those charged
in execution, was in some respects better, having the
power of suing for their groats ; but, even of this,
many hundreds were deprived from their notices 'be-
ing irregular, from the mismanagement of their At-
torney, from their ignorance of the subject, and from
various other causes. This class also had another
advantage, by taking the benefit of the Lord's Act,
and other Insolvency Acts ; but upon the whole,
much was wanting to be done for the relief of both
classes. The Noble Lord then proceeded to state to
the House, a Report from the Thatched House So-
ciety for the Relief of Debtors, from which he shewed
that upwards of seven hundred persons had been re-
lieved by that Society in a short space of time, all
of whom had been confined under mesne process,
and for the most trifling sums of money. His Lord-
ship particularly remarked the case of a poor wo-
man confined in Macclesfield gaol,.now under process
of deliverance by the Society, who had been arrested
for 11. 7s. 44. for bread, cheese, and butter, and the
costs amounted to upwards of 91. and many other
*1 simi ar cases. His Lordship admitted the many be-
nefits arising from this Society, but lamented that their
benevolence should injure the very cause they sought
to remedy, as it had in a great measure prevented the
I.proper remedy being applied by an act of the Legsi-
liture. Upon the whole, his Lordship was clearly
of opinion, that the present mode of suing by mew
process' as more highly injurious to the creditor than
the debtor, and was a fiction in law which the present

Bill weat,to cure. :-
Lord ELLEN-BOROUGH gave the Nobler.tail
.every Credit for the motives which induced him to
twin fUrWaid this measure, motives which must 4.
hhuour to every feeling heari • .bat he saw this Bill
Wight with the. most mischievous and pernicious
tendencies, going* to subvert all those rules which had
been 'laid down by the most able, profoundly
learned, and he might say, the most sanctified Judges
that ever ,Oat on the benches of this kingdom. The
very manner in which the Bill was drawn up was the
.most preposterous that could be. He well knew the
Noble Earl had never stooped to the minutiz of draw-
ing this Bill ; but whoever the person was to whom
the Noble Fail had entrusted it, he had d_ the
most perfect ignorance of all the existing laws upon
,this subject; and the speech of the Noble Earl was
*only an. aggravation of the inconveniences that exis-
ted, and could not tend to heal the wound it must in-
flict. ' His Lordship then entered into a minute detail
fil6
the-rules of the Court upon this subject, which
-WerefOrmed and established so far back as the year
1656;, by some of the most enlightened, profound,
and sanctified Judges that graced the Bench of those
or any succeeding times. His Lordship then com-
mented. at' great length upon every. clause in the Bill,
which he considered preposterous, fidiculoµs,- and in
acme respects_tOmplete baldirdash. • in coirll6•King
upon the cliuses-emPoWering Justices at session to

~' ': i

,
inflict pillory
property,lloryor
he ose
transportation
bry
edup.,
hoant
s clause
t o
rSc
w•
lt-
ing es
written in blood, and more attributable to a Draco
than a X.ycurgus. He cited several passages from
Lord Chief Justice Hale, to prove that such innova-
lpeonrgniceisotaubs.lislhnedthirsuvleieswwh•tereconnosticioenreldy
.tidth°aenngspertillepseit' bthmueetasure, and concluded by declaring his
Most decided disapprobation of it.
Lord HOLLAND lamented extremely, that a bill
of this• important character came before so few of
their Lordships • and that it had also to encounter
the hostility of the Noble and Learned Lord who
spoke last. He had Made minute critical com-
ments on the form of the Bill, and had magnified
these into a degree of importance they did not
deserve. It would scarcely be supp•sed that the sur-
plus tern of President, in addition to Chairmen of
the Quarter Sessions, a mere clerical error, had occa.
sioned as much grave comment, as if the most gm:s
blunders had been committed, not in the form, but in
the substance and principle of the Bill. Their Lord-
ships would Lee that this was not the time for such
learned criticisms on the accidents of the measure—
they were now to consider the spirit, character, and
operadon of the Bill, and the shape in which it should
be presented for the sanction of the House might be
fitly discussed in the Committee. Taking the ques-
tion then in this general view, he would examine
what were the objects of his Noble Friend; (Lord
Moira). They were, 1. To obtain the liberty of the
debtor, on the surrender of his property. 2. To com-
pel' fraudulent debtors to make satisfaction to their;
claimants out of their effects. The next question.
was, how far these desirable ends would be obtained
by the change in the law of debtor and creditor here'
recommended ? With regard to the first, the autho-•
rity of Lord Hale had been cited, in order to skew
that any variations in this law would be pernicious ;
and for this purpose a general remark of that great
and learned Judge had been Mu oduced, on the dan-.
ger of innovating with respect to legislative arrange-
ments. Such a passage might as fitly be applied to
any or to every subject as the present ; and if it ope-
rated in any way, it was to skew that the errors of
our public law should be expunged, and that the ju-
ridical institutions of the country should be founded
OR that immovable basis of truth and justice between
man and man, that no future alterations would be
necessary. With such a design he would most hear-
tily concur ; and to this end his endeavours, as refe-
rable to this Bill, and to every legislative measure,
were uniformly directed. He did not approve the
employment of great names on occasions to which I
their venerable authority was inapplicable ; as high II
characters had been introduced, he would notice a
few, whose opinions on this subject could not be in-
different to their country. That great man, Mr. Burke,
had openly avowed, that this law ought to undergo very
material alterations. Dr. Johnson had explicitly de-
clared, that the only intention of the imprisonment of
the debtor was to compel him to discharge the claim
of his creditor ; and, the surrender of his effects attai-
ned to the extent to which his substance would satisfy
the demand, all future punishment was unjust and
impolitic. On the whole, he hoped that trifling ver-
bal objections would not induce their Lordships to
reject the Bill, as he was convinced that in the Com-
mittee, without sacrificing the spirit of the measure,
it might undergo such modifications, in regard to the
form, as would remove all the legal objections which
had been so fully stated.
Lord MOIRA was astonished to hear from the
Noble and Learned Lord a quotation from Judge
jilale, to shew that innovation in the law was perni-
cious. Every new law, and every correction or va-
riation of the old law, was innovation; and their Lord-
ships were such fOrmidable innovators, that they sat
in that House almost for the sole purpose of intro-
ducing such changes -in the established law of the
.land. If they were to abandon this task, assigned
them by the Constitution of their country, the sole
aim and object of which was innovation, they would
no longer continue a branch of the British Legisla-
ture,and they might retire to a private station with-
out detriment to the kingdom. He entertained very
different sentiments on the subject. The changes to
which human affairs were constantly exposed, the al-
' aerations in national policy, 'and the mutability of
our external relations, made it frequently expedient.sol
to vary our juridical institutions, as to accommodate
them to the public exigencies, under the new forms
they progressively assumed. Authorities the most
respectable had been cited in support of the principle
of this bill. It was not less powerfully supported 1)7
facts than by authority. A benevolent society ha&
been established at the Thatched House, for the relief
of Debtors, and the journals of that body skewed, '
that from the year 1792 to 1802, no fewer than
12,590 had been released by their munificence—and,
of this number of debtors, 11,600 had been imprid
soned for debts on the average under 455. It was no-.1
toritius that many persons had been consigned 'to ae
dungeon for .a long succession of years, from the
iris
bility to discharge claims equally trifling. Such iv
state of things could not be endured in:this enlight-:
ened nation—and to remove a greater by a lesser
Insolvent Acts were periodically passed. But motivlsil
of humanity were not the only inducements to these.
measures—it was found that the jails of the tingdowl
were. so:grievously surcharged with inhabitants,. That-
it became necessary. to open the doors to the old in-
mates, for the admission of new ones ; and all these
inefficient schemes were to be continued, instead of
adopting the general project comprised in this, bill for
the permanent relief of the debtor, and for the early
satisfaction of the creditor ; the one was to be per-
mitted to bid defiance to his claimant within the walls
of his prison, and there to indulge in idleness, extra-
vagance, and debauchery, while the other was to be
allowed to gratify his malignity and revenge, perhaps
on an innocent sufferer, whose necessities alone con-
stituted his crime, He concluded with conjuring
their Lordships to mitigate the calamities of the un-
fortunate, byfroceeding with this bill.
The question being put from the Woolsack, a di-
vision took place, when the numbers were--
Against the second reading 9—For it s—Majority
4.—Adjourned at half-past 9 o'clock till Monday.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
The Deputy Usher ()fate Black Rod appeared at the Bar, and
summoned the Hovel to. appear in the House of Lords, to hear
the-Royal Asten.t given by Commiesion to certain Bills.
Tile Speaker attended :ccordingty, and on his return informed
House, that At RoYarlssient had beengiven by Commission
to the Ten Millions and a Half•Exchtquer Bills Bill, the Tria-

stifninhe Nair?' Regulation till, and tile Poty Cusatt sr
A BBL o ~,
Mr. CANIP.BELI. brourhe up a W". for uritriFir,r tite ci:
Glasgow with water, which w us read a fro, and o;dere4 t 74
read a second time on Monday. ..
A Message from the Lords al tuonuced their usoat to the Sclikk
Creditors Bill.
The Annual Accounts of the West-lndia Dock Co,nplay .._
presented at the Bar, and ordered to lie on the Tattle. -"`
A Person from th;LondonDock Contpany presented as ae,......
of the Progress of the Works, and also of the Receipts -ova
bursements of the Company from Nuventb?t 30, Itso6, to 4
vember 30. 1907.
1
Mr. WIiARII/14 brought up The Report of the CrannitnoL,
the. Mutiny Bill. The Resolutions were read and agreed to,
the Bill ordered to be read a third time onlVlteiday. 44
Lord FOLKSI-0 NE gave notice, on the part of Sir FRAtiflt
BURDETT, that the Honourable Baronet Jute:tired, un tlit tstd
reading of the Mutiny phi, to pro ese a clause to pi event Os,ezo
in the Army from being dismissed front the 'service wit4o,4 a
Court Martial.
Sir THOMAS TutrroN postponed his notice relative to se
Carnatic, which stood for Monday the ttist of Nlatch, to Id,
day the 12th of April.
The Expiring Laws' Continuance Bill, the Expiring Laws' Pe,.
rtuanee Bill, and the lriqh Expiring LaSvs Bill, went sc.-ercr,
throu.th a Commlttve, and the reports were all order to be : .
ceiwil on Monday.

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ore not to
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Mr. Ro
a measure
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ST) INDIA eosi o
e N .
The Presidentr (f.ißoard
f Confront
the -salirdidoesuratshteieo.lincaldtohsceeoamocfceottunlotetztsl adosenttoSetrhmes sitinaoabntlieo,onref
DUNDAS) requested the House to recollect,•th—,,'
to
con
to tht
affairs of the East India Company ; and br those
counts, it appeared that a very considerable deign
had oaken place in the commercial concerns of khec
Company for,the last year, and ho was app 1.
the saute would be the case in the present
.ye,r, Irk
thought it. thoretore necessary that
an enquiry shook
be inade into the causes of that deficit,
. . and whet
wonld be the best means of preventing the store m
future) . He Was in hopes, that hefoic this time the
annual accounts from the Noble Lord at the head -
the. Government io India would have been receired
but they were.not yet arrived, though he bettered
that such accounts were.to be had as would enable
the Committee to form a judgment on the heads he
proposed. He was convinced, he said, that the bust
ness could in no way be so well done in detail, as by
a Committee above-stairs. In 1793, a rule was hid
down for an annual account of the Company's affairs
to be laid before Parliament, but it had been found
impossible to comply with that rule. He should thei.
core propose, that a Committee be appointed to en.
e
quire into the state of the affairs of the India Corn.
.iatPoat[:leillun.enntat.i
pany, to enter into all such details as might appear
necessary to them to make known to the House and
icobvncl aupdedintpobeyd moving_
to
mls
LC the ptiblic. He proposed also, that the Committee
Yae Thaa set
rcStelc7Cosmm He
ee
into the Present state'of the affairt of the East India
Company, and ay report to the House their observi•
tionsahereupon."
' . • Mr. CREEVEY said, he did not rise to oppose
the inaction—on the contrary, 'he was extremely glad
to find, that at length the Right Himourable Gentle
manyas convinced, as he himself had long been, u
the necessity of such a Committee, and such an in.
yestigation. He had long conidered discussing the
affstirt of the Company in the form of a Budget as
idle and nugatory, and calculated only to deceive the
House, the 'Public, and the Cornpapy, on the reel
stile of their affairs. He wished to be informed whe
'ther the territorial revenues of the Company we to
he the objects Ofinquiry by this Committee ?
DUNDAS said, he wished it to be perfectly
understood, that it was intended that the .phole ,
fairs of the Company, territorial: and commercial,
should be enquired into. He thought, however, the
commercial concerns should be the first object of in•
qulry. The motion was then agreed to, and the fol.
' lowing Gentlemen appointed on the Committee :
.11,11 r. Dundas Mr. Johnstone Sir 1. Anstruther
J.earcl Castlereagh Mr. Cretvey Sir R. l'eele • ' .
The Chancellor of Mr. C. Grant Mr. Sturges Boor
the Exchequer Mr. C. Mills Lord Morpeth
Mr. Grenville Mr. Patterson Mr. Fitzhugh
Mr. Wilberforce Mr. N. Vansittart Mr. Hohhouse
Mr. Wallace Mr. Tierney Mt. Vanderitigni
I. Colonel STANLEY presented a petition from a great number
1 al Manufacturers at Manchester, against the Bill on the Orden
he Council. He stated, that several of the petitioners bad lone
time ago communicated their opinions privately to the Maned.
br of the Exchequer, informing him how injurious the (Mimi'
Council would be tp their trade. He moved that the petition b 5
I brought up, which was agree 4 to, and (wing read, it Wilt 0rd0.4
that the petition be considered on Thursday next, and that the
petitioners be heard by themselves or Counsel.
The Committee of Ways and Means was postponed tillMoodn.
'ADJOURNED DEBATE—ORDERS IN COUNCIL
The Order of the day for resuming the adjourned
debate on the Orders in Council Bill having been-rneight
ad,
Lord FOLKESTONE said, that he was last
of opinion the petitioners against. this Bill should not
be heard ; but as the House had determined to hear
them, and on a day subsequent to the passing of the
Bill, it *odd be nugatory and of no avail ; he there
fore wished that the debate' should be adjetamed fur.
titer till 'after Thursday, and would move, as
to
ithendment, that insteightad of the word tonow," be. ad.
" Monday se'nn."
1 The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
lilieughtit would look more kind and indulgent, and
fess di'srespectful to the petitioners, as they had cotm
ti tlfe-House in a respectful manner, to hear thembi
Alb& Counsel,. and to know their case. He felt that
they should not be suffered to obstruct the Bill
ff there be a grievance, it would, in his opinion, b,f
bitier for the House to give the petitioners an oiip4.
trinity of being 'heard, than to say tliey shpuld. not a
all he attended to.
went,
STANLEY shortly supported the am
which,. on the question, being put, was *an
.Sred without a division. the
Mr. WHITBREAD asked the Chancellor of
Exchequer whether the subsidy in the tresitY v:lnto
' *Sweden, laid on the table yesterday, was in adiiitio.it
'the subsidies in any former treaty, or eoinprised
1. The CHANCELLOR Of the EXCIIEgt..;
" said it vias comprised in it.
•ned debate on the Orders in Council Bill to be
The,Order of the day was read for the dotage:
sinned. •
! thought it was unjust as to neutrals, and inevistroeys
s,,t,
Mr. A. BARING spoke against the fill. _He
a 4 a measure: The chief ground taken by
I *as stated in the' preamble to the Orckrs of Cr._
to be that the Government of France had i"'nedl,7_.
tai' Decrees, ' The question was, how far,we_
justified in making neutrals Safer for this
• tallition could, in his opinion, be justified in: h
trtsw,,
.c'theile assumed. by Miffisters, that neutrals ni_us
pconsequences of the retaliation which 114. b-C