The Sun.
London, England, 1818-02-18 00:00:00

IETIT I ONSL

Lord ErAlitatTotaa plesented it Petition 'Wins J.
•Leaeli, Weaver near Rochdale, In
which, being complained of the hiritt Wee-
`meta lie had received during his de'tehtion InOer,
the Habeas Corpus Suspension Act. The 'tenor'
-of the- Petition was airwilar to those of the Mier
petsons lately fiischarged.-.Ordered to He oils
-table and be printfed.
13f.thiirinaii 9;04: he had to entreat tire at-
tention sif thelloinse toils Petition'frotri another
persons,
,the vietitsts of: arbitrary priwer,
and fi'• trifstett *the,
.statement he had to snske
sonata be listened to, aad deemed %earthy- Of in-
14stia&tiOn. 1, *as .trout John, Scholel,'
the keeper of a respectable put:die-hotle at Waite-
Wr-tin. in Jude, was arrested under ulmirrient
frOrn L srd Siihruth, and cot-reeved-to the -Costte
of Cambehlge, There he remained till :January,
Wheii he' waSiiberated, wit bOut learning any cause
for hie detention. By this proceeding, the unfor-
tunate person had been completely ruined He had
tR certificate from a surgeon, stating that his con-
finement, had heels the cause of. a serious illness.
Now 'it would appiar that the only cause this poor
had been able to discover for the treatment
had experienced was, that be had been
charged by Oliver ,and Bradley with basing been
concernedln public meetings. lie, however., only
knew Oliver by coming. to his house With, Mit-
chel!, and their representing themselves as two
delegates from:Londoß, eavaged:to promote Par-
liamentary Reform; he stated in the-Petition.
that Oliver was exceedingly active in stimulating
these proceedings ; and he told the petitioner that
it Sias in vain to continue petitioning, for nothing
4'
would do,but having recourse to physical force-
His answer, on hearing such language, was, that
he was disgusted, with it, and he threatened to in-
form against Oliver. Hence (said the Gets-
Tiernan) his arrest for Mr. •Oliver no sooner
found himself s ate USd be' informed against,
t ban he called a meeting ati Setiolea's hoarse. The
petitioner, however, denied that such a meeting
had ever been held there, ou that its appointment
ever had his approbation ; and it worth? he found
that information had been obtained of Oliver him-
self" complaining to others of the slackness of
Scholes, in refusing to bold ,this rifeeting. He
denied that he was ever at any meeting, extept.
one for obtaining Constitutional Refo:m. The
Ma. Gent. continued to argue that this man's Re-
entity ought to be listened ro, as he hind flited,the'
responsible situation. of Deputy Constable --for,
three years, and also a Collector of the Assessed;
'faxes, and was very actisre• in apprehending. :the
persons charged with Luddism, insomuch' tbtrt the
provisions of the Watch and. Ward Act• were not
-deemed uecessary to be pat,in execution. For
this he received the thanks of the Magisttates and
the Deputy Lieutenant. lie (Mr. tcy had far-
ther to state,-that lie had comtnnnicated out this
man's case with a mast loyal and respectable Ma-
gistrate, who said that be had made inquiry into
it, and though he- was at first prepossessed with
an iinfavourable opinion of him. on account pd his
having been apprehended,yet he a as nose thorough-
ly convinced that he no more entertained
iillf4llolirabie to the State than Mr. Wilberforce,
or the most innocent wan in :the iiingAnyr.
tie (Mr, arongham) had only to add, that this

poor man was exceedingly moderate in the
, prayer of his petition, for be only prayed that
they would take his hard care into:consideration,
itiid give him
_such redress as they -.might
deem fit and also that the Aortae would
interpose to get returned to him the papers
IMO an old memoratrelum book, which had been
taken from !threat the time he was apprehended,
aird %%hie!' last cootained the
.doeronent to prove
a debt of 171, doe to a poor widow, without
which she could not recover. He was free from-
regarding the-ease with such sort ef levity, a ease
that exposed such abominable treatment, and Ares
so moderate in its prayer. The Petitioner ,rtid
not ask for any investigation ; he- called for no
vengeance on his persecutors ; but this Was no
argument why he (Mr, B.) should not entreat
the House to pay just Attention to the whole of'
its c)ntents.
The Petition was then brought up, .read, and
ordered to lie on the table, and to he printed.
Mr. Doeoeas gave notice, that on Thinsday
next be would .move 'for an Account of all Fees
And Emoluments received for Pardons. under arc.
Great Seal.
PETITIONS OF WARD AND OTEIERS
Lord Fut-1,1E570ne, on rising to make his pro-
mised motion, moved that the. petitions of F..
Ward, the Evanses, J Stuart, J. 13,igfileyi and
others, already before the House, be. entered as:
read, %% bid) being done, the Noble Loral said,
his motion would be founded on aIV tbese-Peti-t
tines, though he would principally fix his obsera
vations to the first, which was that of F. Ward,
and lie should conclude with moving, that this
end any others of tire same hind be referred-to
Committee. When the House hnd,consitlered
all the circurnstatices detailed in these petitions,.
he hoped they would pause before they would
;;runt a Bill of ludemnity to shield those who lord
been the authors of 30 much misfortune to in--
nividaals ; for, if be understood the Noble bort!•
opoosite on a former evening, the Bill of Indem-
nity was said by hint to be due by Parliament to
the Ministers of the Crown, and was not intend-
ed to arise out of the Report of the Secret CM-.
mittee. But before the House granted a Bill of
Indemnity to Ministers, it was necessary to see
that the people had not been•damnified -by their
measures ; and on this ground it was tirat he
xvislied (or a Committee to examine into the alle-
gations in the petitions. Within the last 120
years the Habeas Corpus Act had been suspended
ten or twelve times, yet there was only one pre,
eedent of a Bill of iudemnity, and this' one was-
of their own making ; for, although the same in-.
dividuals did not occupy precisely the sameSitna-
lions as they did then, yet they were the salve
persons who were now about to apply for it ;
therefore they had set, the precedent. They
tiered wrong in the first instance, and now. they
take their own conduct as a precedent for acting
so again. Last year the House were told theme
were great tumults and an evil disposition through
the country, and they were called on to Stl3pCila

' the itabea's Corpni Act, and though they were'
callezl 'ort fo prove the truth of their assertions-,
they fiever did. The only instance of evils arising
from the proceedings of ill-disposed persons, to
Stiapen,ionorcessary, was• the breaking
.ont in -berbyshire. This was follOvVcd by the
Oitil sonic persons were convicted ; hut no
Other instance to call for it had been pointed not,
But it was not so much to the nature of the peti-
tions,
,as the itialiner in which the Nilnisters of
"iliii-Cii`rWirli4iieieeeded their. powers, that he
wished to c^lt ilie"attentlon of the House, foil if
they had not Abused tbose powers, they had no
,LOCcasion ttr ask b r a Bill of lndansnity and it
was. evident they hid violateat the la* in every re-
spe-et. Time Suspension 4if the liat.eas Corpus Act
gave thenttro new power to inflict rimishment vn
pthrph:l thi'y were only to apprehend them
the warrants of the Secretory of:Stale, alio
tOAeep them in custody, if it were not convenient
immediately to bring them to trial. But they
might,look in vain for airy otkr power granted to
them under the Suspension of the Habeas Corpus
Act. There were regular lot tas for taking trp the
people ; they were not to be c(mrolitted to jail by
order of Ministers, and be told, there you may lie
as. long as 'we like. 'There were regular forms Q.t.
Commitment, as_erery Gentleman knew who was ,

to the Commission of the Ye:ace. They knew the
'ate, atilt yet, it appeared, its forms had not been
adhered:to. tie -should not dispute thepower of
the Secretary of State to appreheod pei-sons its
such a way halt he • Would say, -that it was tin-
dotrbtedly nu Ilsorpittion, known only within these
one hundred and lift yyeara ,or from the tinteot 34lug
William, when one of the Jlidges, on a .particit-
lar occasion, said, that lie conceived the Secre-
tary 01 State bad the power art nalliilthfer All oath,
because he had the power.ot committing. it was
'ass' undoubted usurpation, because before that pe
riodno such power did exist. Then bow had it
arisen ? It was a perteet anomaly in the Consti-
tution, and ought, to, be.put an end to. He cook!
not find any 'Swore which tivtailed the: particu-
lar forms to be gone through betore the Secretary
ok State, or that they were diffelent from the or-
dinary farms in cases of • felony and interior of-
fences. A Justice must, betorecommitment,take
exatnination on oath, and transmit Ad to the
proper Court before which the. offence is to be
tried, and the Secretary of State 311011h1 be bound
ro take the same precaution, even its a. case of
treason, by which security is given that improper
force or violence &bids not be used. But now, it
Appeared snch undue force had been.nsld;' and
with respect to the caf.e of the petition io
fiftlrf, it did appear that the proceedings:origin-,
toed with the Magistrates of Not ling halo,. who
began by searching the petitioner's house, and
refused to 'hew. their warrant ; and that the mats
was
,soon afterwards carried to Oxford, He
been told that gt eat exaggerations-were contained
nl tke petitions.; and be conceived it possible
titer! ,aright - be; but lie could trot help oh-
s-crying, that the Secretary of State might give
au order with ,res-pect to these people, to prevent
it being known how they were treated ; and he
bad certainty done all he emild. to prevent the
Magistrates front seeing whether they were in
not._ So if they were put in irons, he bail
exceeded the law ; and therefore these people,
might feel very sore, and express ,their chagrin,.
But they were certainly condemned by the Seere,
tiny of State to solitary con.bnement, which was
Imprint tire- power given him by the law, and
which. in the Opinion-of many Gentlemetki. was ft
pooisliment not idetior to death itself. . The
N9lyie Lord. to prove his argument, read a case
front the Journals of the House, respecting Lord
Caatiemaine, who • being contaaitted to the Tower
in 1689, on a charge of High Treason, and being
a member of that ffonse,, detnaneleul to he called
on to make his complaints. He was according-
ly brought up, when he complained that he had
been cot-omitted to solitary confinement, anti
desired to have his servants anout . him, and
his lihet ty in the prison. Tire !loose, in con-
sequence, came to a series
.of .Reatrintions,
granting him, his demands, and appointing a Com-
mittee to,lating in a Bill for the better regulation
of the liberty of the subject. ',llse Attoroey-Ge-
nerd teas likewise ordered to prosecute
chat tlson,, the Kt eper of the Tower, tor ilLusage
eerrliq PeilniM-41e 110:pcd, therefore, the
would appoint a Committee to inquire into,
the abtnes mentionof in these petitioos. He
should:like to know. trorn the
.Attorney-General
what power there was that could, .get these per-
sons,.once Comniitted, out of jail, without trial
He believed there -was no. power -ma earth could
do it
.without a violation of the law, or Iris Ma•
lesty's pardon, Their own recognizances was an
int Tior sort of bail,And then ii followed that this
diode of getting them oat was as illegal as it was.
unjust, by, leaving thens with a
,stigina on.their
4haracter, which if they had been brought to trial
they would not, have _sustained. High Treason.
was tire only olience avbich- the kw ,declared
should not be bailed ;,therefore if it were true that
these people Were .committed on suspicion of that
Crime, they there not:capable of being let out on
bail cif any kind ; and thos they must have been
set free contrary to law. The Noble Lord re.-
Peated his arguments, that no new power had
het n given to Ministers by the suspension of the
Habeas Corpus Act, and contended, that if a man
bad been, kept in prison a whole year, as be might
have been in Westmorland, by being. committed
just after the Assizea had curled, And then rained
out, he would, on. briniing his action, and not
being able, to prove the facts, have his costs to
pay, and get no remedy, nor any opportunity of
tf;efending himself, The House therefore ought
to take the subject seriously up, and not pass over
such violations 4,f the liberty of: the sithilet. It
bad been complained of, that all the vengeance of
the Secretary of State had been directed against
poor friendless people, and not, against Gentlemen
who inade speeches.; bat he thought
,the lion.
Gentleman would tiow see why Ministers hail con-
fined their meastires to such
.people. It wits 1),-
ca4tse they wanted victims. hut if they had di-

reefed their efforts against Gentlemen who.tio-
derstood the law, they would nut trAve submitted.
to be fumed Out in this sort of Wily, but would

• [lave mide some noise while the poor people, it
rtti.ght easily he supposed, would be Om( to get

- • .
their libel ty on any tertna. He Idled the !louse
.
wculd entertca It is inut:on, thut the. i>etitionens

. , .
Might Tie able to justify themservei, and he Wished
that inquiry might be mole into the character of
ttard, that it might he interred what reliance
'bright be placed' yo his -ellegatioos. I.le. knew
lintt the doetrioe of considering men innocent till
they were fotind guilty had long beets esti-dolled in
• that Millie. The Habeas Corpos Act- had been
4rispendes-f- in Marth ; hot be wOold contend that
it serfs improper to take imp people in this orennert
at taess atottet Mote' "wag " tiga them than
mere enspicion.- •firt F thfs very dangerous man
had not heels .tralken *up by a ,varrant front the Se-.
tretery of State ; and if- be should two nut tube
a had character. he had, aecording to o'er laws, as
moth right to jitstiee as if he. were a good one.
On the whole, he .thosr.gfst it elssolutely necessary
that the Houseshoilld intrire into-the allegations
trf this..petition, particularly as to the mode in
which the Moo laid been treated and discharged.,
Ile should therefore move, " That a Committee
be appointed toexamine into the truth- of the arks
gations cootained in the petition, and report their
opinion thereon."
-Lord' CasimeettaGu said:, On rising to make
some observetions on the motion' of the Noble
Lord, he. must frrst ask whether this motion- was
consistent with the notice he had given to the
House ? As he miderstood 'the Nohlc.Lovd,' be
said it would be competent to bins, if the House
granted him the motion, to inquire into tke
eat ions of that petition.; hot he did diitinictly tin
derstand.hito to rneartspecially the case of Ward..
Bur ,thougli he had: altered 'his course; by taping
all the petnions for his.basb, it doi not follow.
that he (Lord Castlereagh). should alter his inten-
tion of offering some observations on the ease of
Ward ;'.itor shoold- be hesitate t.o oppose the Ina'.
tiriOr of the Noble Lout 'on the subject of thiepre-
,sent petition, as Ise-should disitictly and sepa-
rately on all the others. As to the ,Bilt.of.
Jln-
`lderanityt, alihoshgls the Noble Lordhad attached
bignselif diligently t;o this subject, lie had not been
accurate in his researches ; far he had stated'• that
only one precedent existed, which was made by
the persons now its Parliament, for their own pro-
tection. '!lie Nobte Ltird mitst.allow him to set
bins right, which he•should do by stating the con-
verse of his proposition.. 13-ot he apprehended. he.
should be much more correct if !recalled on the
Noble Lord-to show any other case of the' Sus-
pension of, the Iltsireas Corpus Act, -for which-
there was- not a Bill of Indemnity.' 11 he would
refer back to King.William"s-time, he rwould..fsteil;,
that there were. theu_passed no less than three
Bills of:indemnity.: He would fool also that they
were passed in the rebellions of 1715, and. 1745',
and,
,rte 'short, ,that they invariably followed
every 'Suspension of •the Habeas Corpus Act,
in ati those ease sk where the mischiefs to he pro-
vided against had led tri-the necessity of putting
extraordinary powers into the hands oaf the. Mi.-
oisters. of the ..Crown, for the protection of the
country and the subject. But (lid the NoldeLatd.
suppose that his. 'Majesty's Ministers wanted. es.
Bill of lodenanity for having. • exercised 'those
powers ? . This, he-would tell the 'House,
nor degree the situation of inissiers: The- case
was., [hitt t hey had been cult:fisted with thegreat-
est powers tis'at.everctiuldbeimposed upon thern,k
that of ioterposing .to Ilsoe- state warritnts for klp--
r.rehendiog Per-Oils so-Tve'd of TrssAssts, anti.
tbe Bench was bound to rake notice of the pro-,
ceedingsi and to stand between the Orisoners and
the country. but he protested..apinst• its being
belieeett that Ministers lead committed any arbi
trary acts. He would positively deny- that they..
Grad cOustnitted indieidoalsto custody without Sa4•
.
tisfyine, themselces-on oath of the cireumstances,
which rendered their arprehenlion, justifiable--
(Hear, hear 1.1)-1--He . would also. deny 'that any
Person had been committed on the eridelice"af the
person who bsd made so much noise in thtitl
House, or that. his Noble Priend,:the Secretary
of Stray, has done any thing except under the
advice 111 the Law Offieets.of the Crown.--.(Hear,
Itear,t)--s-As to' the suspension of the Habeas
Corpus Act, the House bad, by a .greal -majority,
recognized the measure, anti had thereby imposed
otsMioisters the task they.had fulfilled ;- amt they
would, hov;e been..traitors tv, their trust and to the
connity they ,had hesitated toi pot' the law in
force. 'The measure was. resorted "to in conse-
,qaenee of
.the nnat.iinous opinion of two Secret
Com:duces ;1 and the Noble Lord would allow
him to say, that there was not among the Mem-
bers of those Committees one dissentient voice as
to there being a bold and organised Icouspieacy
for thepurpoSe of overthrowing both Church and
State ; and that these. conspiracies were basely
founded on the distresses of the people, for -the.
purpose of directing physical force against the
Constitution and .t he Country.—(l4ear, hear 1)--.
This was the ground,therefore.on Which lie Would'
argue the necessity of. the measures that had been
resorted to, He would go along with the Noble.
Lord in asserting that all the substantial forms of
law liad.heen adhered to ; andite worthd say, that if
-they had not been attended to, they would. not have
been defended as they had been. But did the,Noble.
Lot (1 to say,,that such persons were to be.
plaCed'in the same 'situation as if no such Bill had,:
been in operation ; and here there was evidence, 1
that there,should.be any doubt whether, it was to
be considered or not ? if the Secretary_of
.State.
was bound to give up to the Bench all the evi-
dence Ott Which he bad committed such persons to
prison, the Hoose must teel ill what a perilous si-
thation the country would be placed. He would
put a case. Suppose the Secreta'ryof State had
received,information of aplot of au alarming de-
scription,ion condition 'Burly that nothing 'shoeld
induce them to give op the names. of thel persons
who had Communicated the information, and that
thew were neverulttless to be broogirt into a Court
of Justice. Was he tie: be prevented from issuing
his warrant ? and if it were not only necessary,
but his holooleu duty to do it, was he afterwards
to be compelled to justify in a Court of Law tee
evidence oo which the apprehensions had taken
pl ice ? 1r WaS, therefore; elways necessary to
pot bet wet us him and his breach of duty to inch-
virinals a Bill of Indemnity. Sods a Bill had
alnays been. teamed, Or how won:d it be possible
fur tire. Ministers of the Crown to find means of

protectilkg the comttry, it tliey weer to. bring .tor-
ward, fl tto:ir otro defence, thr vvident., 'on

wield) filo; had hoed ? I was, therrhoe, not n

Rill tor. .pruteciing Misri,ters, hot (me lip: pro.
ecti,►g the lives and persons of individuals who

had coati ini-Ward and heir
infOrmatrou
oti condition that their wratmes sh" 1" 744
(11.scitiita. Either, ;heti, Phew intlic!a''''}i
lie proieetid, Which proteiiiiitt was of s'sect,,i
tuttetita Kee hi t heir eyed', that without it 1
tte
woolif not hare git'eti their ititottnati"'!, Pr
htt ter
Alinisteri Of the frown must lie
Punish thent t f thA: talViosnlilleed.t, bits "".
fusiog Otr those who lord itrialde:i OW" !;
deteet the Conspiratopi„ therefore,. coustlei
tiered the Bill !Nit fairirtir Ministers, "
p.rogo•titokle the
had thereby placed their atoft,
'it'd 110,v, with defererice. to, the liablezu`,":.l
lie shoulit protest against ounitittee 0.1 'll
quiry ; -for their povvers 'weie tint cot:11,0(17r
bring charges, and the individnals:
eort,l,not opon:oath, and- this tvirold
the -Committee to the difficulty of receiviog
sal ealeneefrom, eh the persons; 60R,1°°' Jr.
proceeding could*. be founded. As die bac'',
ships those persons bad underone, he shoald,
the allegations a direct denial; though he
belittled there would be nothing in the Big
demnity in prevent any individual from bring,9,
his ease before a ..Ittry.—(Heat„ hear t)---1.11,e.;;;e
pension of the Habeas Corpus did,not a"""),:i
to Ise clatnitn:i
arty power of seVerity, ;. and with rt..speet ta.rdl '
elass- of complaints that, related It;
Meta and hardships, he wkifed: it to be &to":
stood, that there,was no necessity for any ill"lrte
by the,,EJoisse, for, the Courts of Justit7e
cumplettly,open to' the. comPlainants. tr-•
1134,10ttg. been tbelertide source of declims..,:i
and misrt•presentation, bort) 'vii 114,t,t Hotrit
out of it. There had,. been affecting Tel're*e„uti
tions of persons ittormred iti troitge"."'?' hl it'
when (iientlenteu went to examine dies' Ltai
geons, they found them- such c,mfortaltle f
as even tbeNoble.Lord himself„it he eve "i',.."•ri'
to be con t:m tined, eid not .reasortalAy ohi-01-1-„pt
(Laughter.).—lf,therefore, the issue.of.t be
lion of hard tre.attuent were to be tried al:ch
41 oar& not -to be tried in that House, `v. los
;should neither' waste its time nor degrade
'functions by stteh an.'inquiry ; for whot (70'
after allutould they adopt, on hearing par"l'e c1:1;t
hence,, but • to advise- the parties to bring 11'
Cast into, toMe other Count-1 a• mil
tt.ity, had never been. heard of in wh•iefrlllc
had no beet) •-approachetl wit
in their language, and as toll of ntsjsw
presqq.,,, though the ,Gent temen: on, to*
ptsstte side,were ready to vouch .for what the); re,
lieved to' be the (Ptah o 4 their. contents.---0.314‘
hear, bear !)•—hut that did not induce' t 1.1,3,
•
House to, swerve front- their city 011
oteasiOns, nor would it on the. present. '
tltao
respect to Ward, he would say, tbat•
never was a more flagrant instance of ntisr,;,ft
sent ation- than the stalements in his petitiul'aict
every-part of his rase. The Noble Lord ho'l sor
the,froceedings against him had been wrooP
his being attacked by the MAgistrates.
true that-the first..arveat -was by the' Magii6tf't-e,,;
but. WO .g.roundS eason. Fie
?Ft;ttrivil alt t.th of beittg engagect- to the Diffioi
System- in 181 fi, and a very few slays elftcr 116.11‘'14t#
OM.4oed the-wa4tvo-ut
• apprehend him fur High Treasou. fit coal4%.'d,
etl of being confirm! in the same roo'"
lobs, when sent to prison a felrytelki-nw,lf;
the Noble Lord_read atlida,,i4 front' the -t
6
'of Nottingham, proving that nit other tread—)
had been expeNieneen by himthan what %, 99 lisric
towards-the. tythtl nti,otters, and 'hot he :o:fr,a,
bed", ster, blankets, and,a bedstead,- iu is
MOM with stone walls, and an arched 1.04 tI
ti,,,to
. the stink he complained'of Was nOthiog
.the acid used in fittnigating the
prevent infection ; that the, man never matlc."oo.,,
complaint to Iti% whatever; and that tin
were put on him while under, his care. IV;rill',::t1
Oxford gaol he made complaints to Lord
mooth of haSdtreativ tiot, but he (I.4i)rti !,,(#.
also an affidavit to chew that these corni)!,'‘
were, etinally frivolons. lie bad what be
aunt in a week or two.he wrote to the Noble 1-,(),`.:0,
expressitigbis great gratitude for the-tst"tit,
that had been paid to his comforts.
pretended. ter be alt extraordinary mor,)l
gious character, and he Complained to '
tooth of the hardship.Of his being prifveritet?"ia
attending public vrorship. The N..ble Lara
mediately inquired into this, nod the gaula
0,
he had never expressed a wish to go to the c
lie
pel,'bitt now heknew what his wishes lit're'ibe
would allow. him the use of his own seat in if
W chapel on edoesdays, Fridays, and Stindays,"°,
whjch he shbuld have- had at-first, if be bad est,
pressed any ititem ion of going. There Ivere,t.,
great number of-other cootplaitys of harsh tle-s
talent, but both the . officers and the King's •Nici;
tenger, bad exHini4ed, and they 'declared Iv,
ptisotters had, never made the least comPl4inEre
tbeiO, but on the contrary, expressed their.si"c'o
thanks to- themfor their • kindness. There tl far
several other affidavits before him, which
troin that. Ward had experience('
thing like solitary confine:neat, proved that
bad a yard , to walk in,' and left the :prison
;:,tore health as he canoe into SeptembC,:e
arm gaol became considerably crowded, and;
t
moment this was related to Lord Sithnotitti; I'
t •
cattscd him to be removed. It Was always poi
, .
W
101 to itt to say any thing against indivi(hig,
characters, hecatt•e it never led to any conclusilf •
Judgment ; hut it -was impossible for hit siteuiv, .
to suffer the feelings and understanding of. 0
House to be so t riii,(l with from -tiny to der' lie
they were on the subject of these petitions. tie
dui riot see how GovrrOttient could give 0,
names of those from whom they had reCei'Ve"•';,
formation, without betraying the great trust ,r
posed in them, by breaking faith with those `sr:4",.';
posses%ing information of conspiracies that 1.4,
dangerous to the. State, had come forWarti `'l
close what they knew for the public good. I.
lad, however, Ito objection to communiel'e V:;
respecting 'Birth 'M n bolt"
'Ministers were ,riot bo"
secresy; and doing this, he should give ,descrif
firm or the chlractet ot Ward, little •cous"Vi:
witit.that which he had given of himself lit
petition. The Noble Lord here read le-'
ral posfrom
sages . the petition, in which I,e
tiesclibed hhnselt to have ever made it a "I'
tu, do' as he would be done by, and
men were directed to act by Jesus Christ hinoe t
fit could :eel no fear of haviu.; his house se"rche

ly.i

'I

• 141
..'li

it;

b,,

•;.‘
C
t •

la

„ 1116
P
t re,

;elf

:he 1

1

ch' ' - • , . .
...:
• .
~ .
Yten or x it,' • •• - -7'. • ••
tan, I , . - . i•ztsa. co..ittardes. He flit iter repre-
'teehs-::, I,'"r"c4- t" he -posse,s;eil of, all 'the finer
' ''
''s that ath;ro 1., i i iey and pathercallt•
oett.t..- , 1►, „ ,
• it'f'd Ilri...ntisery to tiiticli'he hail been soh-
.
.1,-letetli heing.tnricleoiit' liii.nrife and 'children,
Itt "!ere thus ►made to 'fill hp his or!) of 'hitter"
sitie,ll' itmead Of proviitz,,, tas heretofore, :e
eetest blessing of lii's exi,tetice. The Noble,
Loral
next drove/tried to ititrocince 4) the House
111 W") tielinsitions'in.ade by TtiOnias Savage
,and Jo-
11..ui Mitch 01, win') had bet!) 'reuidarly nonv,iete(!
43,vi being coneernetl in .the dreatifill trtiCee..oil3.
I'a'n,'jell hal taken place at teieeSter and Nottillg'
:veand 'bad suffered death.
,these Men', On the
()( t6it execution, hml Made a last at"teg'"'
t'eadtheir eountry for the crimes they halt cmittlit-
AL ' 1 a:hill confession of 'V.,lial they knew of
. isttlit3ntactimi referred to. Their depositiout
,deen taken by the Nitigistra!es of the place;
Ina( tr„ .
elli , hsnutted to Ittivertiment by Mr. Mond iv.
Nye intifeisiott of Joshua Miteliell' representtt
nt3tr,4,t6.lluVe tirgeti binyto the etuninissioil of the
t,:r,),-,'"einotts criines. It minutely. detailed :tl),e•
iiii-,i''" "i the persons whO had combined for tl
apri,"°ta of destroying machinery, and made it
IV, %," that Ward li id teMpted men to Cotnnotr
01.01,°"..elice, by offering or -giving thent.suinii t.! ,
Iti;:Y, varying in amount according to the,nag-
nt..
Ael-,,°1 the crinte'lte desited th:•iti to perpetrate.
• In Iklintheeaets of.atrocit y; he h ad tifferetirwa)rdis
`4lltevjwito should shoot varitius individuals; C e
ilerpri` Petions, a joioneyntallWlin had worked, in.:
Ivitile'le,e,tas to lie shot as an example. The Ho i • ,
to ;I ': letting- to thi4 ',airier,' Might he" disposed
to,o'''"it that what . it. stated. wits: fithithmS. They
li.l)._enulliliiri,::lliy be
prev.,eed to hear that iliftli4"l
to commit murder. The fact, howev!.!•,
•itittb.‘/.4)een elearly proved-on the. tri:4l;' that aisks..si-
of ''''--111, i" had. been regularly plantretl,. arid. t lie • prt ce
ar -11rder 48 regularly fixed as that of stock,itigs.
I)e,,Y conittion• article of traffic could havell .e2l). The deposition further stated 101. to have.
11:sill,
"vetoed as the price of. the deitli of aftice-
i,)r, who had become obnoxious to the conspiriti,-
ithri and SI. for the murder of his-
Joarneyilt a ,
tin ' had worked
uHder rice. Atter.the cotivic-
li 'lnt 4- man w p
ho was tried for a 'felony 'BCE:64IO-
- Ward said, he would liave• the Judge
;in tried him done for. ' S.,onie (14( nil /6
1",11 oil Ilia aiiiio;iticit ' ' ! '4l Gut ‘Vaird
krsis. ,
ig
th'isf
( "ii; ' litre
it ten and- declared he ' was t.itert_ll36ft in"
1,1 ittitle. Thomas Savage, who was ctinvictettartew
;,.._4,!:,:ilterwards, made a deptisitiorn stinfiltar. to that
1:.t.1i he hittlinst read, Witliniit any previous cutltili-
w:llic'"'ion with ‘Mifelii.ll. .Ttie lasilliJit ot
idi
thesis ad by 'itie, Noble to„.d., „nd it eOrroborit .
the, eonleSsitio of Mitchell with respect to
l it acied tiv ‘t.'•eril. After lie.Aring these. de-
j'.,°„si'i"ils, the 4j,-,„,re would he able to fil`rili' a
.t)c,t.Per estimate of t tie Character of \Valli; ,AVIle- ,
liinr).l"' the evi!ence ,vbicb "conta, be given against‘
licit) i,e ""glt toll,: put
',„ his trial,
r. w:ata quie.::
he ‘l,- ll," whieh lie should not go.a:.'preSetit, 1)!t
thin °?"I al)}l,-41 to the Houseth there were tatly
l'a'vel",111", l'is mural character that ought to have
lie 4,i"" from being committed to prison, after..
irtae't elee iliarged on Oath With treasonable
I'vtr':':ll%: 1, 1", (1 posittotis to teltici:‘,llilliicibleitaidt,:•;:-d;
Sat,l2,,e `I :tu sheen bt„lio-eil from
11`)Pe" 411(1,1"- h* 0 ' • nitiCli left 'hem ally
the .
through()l:uutainctlinsia"cs the disclosuri-s
.. Y ll'i:litlli!ki"g mercy
eet,t ion hath had
""1! itip, ' e. No such exp
einents
\vere „,"),'"ce over them' whet' nte".°4l'
4l'llicil—i'le by film) • I.', most bpionit moments.
~ ' Preeethia,. In
I"-
• lie trusted the
e ‘l, -, their execution..
stateril ""Id not 'be rim away with by the expa. rit
Le.tl euts of Mr 'l'ai'd i ureseuting liiinelt to
- it must ' . . - e r - . ,: • 1 of men,
'Cl,,lvli
91 th'wcte intended to make 'a. false ' imp eb ,
t.
fOl-.dizile tionse and the country.. His case",?
Illtili• vt1(;1 g'rounds for instituting a P.ttle!-.:
1.1 ail 'lir( t;.1111 tiny lira tie allegatititis contaitii
C.„ -•le petit oats on their 'rabl-e.•The comilitet of
. /4,1 Plintent, lie was satisfied, ,woold prove t.tati ‘,
litt2rY t° every individual in the Committee .11()W
itntlirlii " it would be seen that no one 11'd begin
't'''i,( outlet the latt,'Act 'but int' the ist"te!-It.
i 44 e.neegiven oil. oath, and. on
4,l(‘lvi,6l4eis of the Crown. All possible evidence
the. advice of ill e.
Cen,i'ieen 1i.4(1 before the-Committee, with the ex-
e2.tit"." nf the names of the persons furntsliing sea-
Iv( .14f()1.21"i"rt. . That these shoidtl.be wituhel.
,I 411(1
n".ep-ptis.e or offend the•iltaitse, tiniest
Ir'ill' wisi''('''t° 'lefty Ministers the aicl.of •s•ectret
et„,llii,i-eftee in tlaitxerous times. t When-.; bow"
. .. It ws See, tba ' • its. were in .pro-
kre..s.. )1
w.). , t cons,lptrac •
ifi'f)fri:l.'le .ditll itiCo"tjllalii:pareelisie.in7lrtehraet t4i‘:l-3:v.1:4:-"clein'fitil:alcarielld'
11:11t1.11:1:iliullitt,1:1:bieheYI)seaertle.oil Illit ytut'lli et oCha":111e :‘il:ra:l'ele:llt.ri(remttnssiehl:el
.6:
persons, tcontinirted to •prison.
too tie ttle circumstances art
~ the case, that no 0n.7
taaiedlYNeitive on the part ,r4' ,Ministers had ant-
‘tttst-eCelll to use tttittecessaTily,the ,powers•. a'
.1-''tlie,te. them by Valli:tint-At.' , They litatl.ne-
:lune so, tteted with vigour, .;and hail they! ilot
'lad D.,„1,14 was convinced the flutist woule& have
was --(lts of the. danger which•iiiaa existect. tliat.'it
it w.Rll°t the wish of the Government to -afford.; as
raite's their object to prevent itasiirrectkonarx-Amt
tleci4,' Ile finished by givitig•the motion, 'WA most
tied., ,
Zr ,legßtlre.
. Aloe %; jbliN SMITH .0101101 r that there ,was tint
lief. °NI in the Petition of Warti eur'.de,l"tp be 7
- art . tie'then proceeded to show thi
.tit unjustly iin,dligned the conduct of theNtagist,eates of Not-
x 1125 "i{ni 'than whom there could')
••en.
Jot be found in
ir, , "ntry more -honourable intlidoals exerci-
'%io"tit'le magisteriFd autliotity.: I.lle dying conies-
! ly, nf Alitchell lie proved to be confirmed'
tif,a aitailar statement whicii. he had made con-
' 1114'1"Iti'llY before Lous triel.._, to a professional
tiften'' wit' bad . properly •.
kept it secret •till
e t'' Mitchell bad suffere'i. 'BA though lie wit
• -,
. : ton "need
tl•te prayer of
.IVaril was entitled. to no
' 1.118- es4erl'im" it 'lid 11' Jt tallo.N that he was tare-
,114 e to inqitire lot'
; \„‘other Netitior,' J the•allegations contained in
- 'Though to.
s • oti. their table. '
;:tirrl Cot iv•('''re. likely' to do every thing i t 1: di
14t),PS and li amanitY reqttired than the Nome
kii,':' at the /Jeatl of the' Department, he
ver':. nnt "'ire that his 'intentions were arrays
ke tied in, -effect by diStant gaolers and others
je t'•"1.; vAnder him., Ile therefore, framed as it was,
i could not op '
t pose the present motion.
'S.
,:kle• GooLDING tilleWeti that what had had been'
„k. laid 01 the' treatment experienced hy James Sei-
, 21's: on
Floillstott,
.and John Knight, teasi is)tatitlett wisrepresentatio:i. Ile read a state-

•
• •
mut=t th;le by the gaoler, from it appeired
they hallheentreAlvd ,A.it4 the krefnteSt-kilizlS,S,
and tat! beet! allowed indalgenees w .10 in tk it
Sittlatic.n they had 'no right to expect.. Ele read,p
[ester signed by two of them,
.addressed to Ole
Altve,istrates, to express their gratitude
.to Mr.
Eaststaff,. the 'kaitler, for his kindness
.to them
during their confinement, and *for his generosity
in tornishint-there 'With money when they were
about tii eetrirn to their homes. • .

Sir W. la3loll 41141 oot soapect the Noble, Lord at
the head of the Home Department, nor any of his
Malecty's Ministers, of disposition, to abuse the
-poWers Atli=cli bail been given to thein by the
Habeas corpus Saspension Act ; but, nevothe-
less, as they had a number ot• l'etitions before
them Which complained of great hardships sus-
tained by the Petitioners, he held it to be the
ditty ot. that House IO Institute an ini)oiry into the
truth of the allegations urged against -Ministers,
and should therefore vote for the motion.
Illi:26oßDobi•wasno in the Hoose When Bagu-
ley's petition Was presented ;• but he had written
to the Goyernor of Gloucester Gaol, whom he
kneW to beta man of great homanity,•and by hint
he was authorized to contradict some of the
,gatious'which it cOntainedl • The petitioner had.
stated that on his. arrivalsat the rim' he, Wel3.
'placed in a cistern of ctild,water, •which irad Rlt
effect-nt proaticing ti fever.'l'llegaoler. said, that
•according to the rules of the prison he had ti'ek
put in a wont bath, which •he hail sairt Wa
very comfortable ; so fay from his.. being it
in consequence of it, he had gone into prisot,
on the 12th of-April, and had never been inj
Jlksposed till the. 20th 'of' ,May. His situation
had been made as comfortable as posSible ; he
• •
had 'been permitted to walk every day ; lie was
- allowed a 'guinea 3 week fOr provisions," and so
.cayeful were the gaoler. and tile magistrates that
he should not , be cheated, that limy, took upon,
themselves.to eitanqiue all his hills. Baguley had
• ex pressed himself satisfied with the treatment he
reeeived. The visiting Magistrates had-been ad-
mitted', and any Magistrate of the county that
\Visited to see the prisoner.
~Sir George Noll had,
onrush occasions the gaoler had'
taken'the-to,be out of the way, that hi, inisoaer
•inight speak without restraint. Bat though this
petition-was false.e-though all the petitions on the
tale were false.. he.saw no reason tin rousing
the- inquiry for. On the contrary .it sp.
pe,ared ti, him; tinder-such c;rcutustances, to be
the more detalrable,'

Sir 'W:l7eutSl3 read a letter. which he had receiv-
ed; statment made by The la4t
Sneaker, and statingihe prisoitet's contact to have
heen orderly that. irons were never thought of
for htth. He voted for the inTdry.
Sir'F. BUitoSir was not satisfied With all he
had heird of f'the good treatmznt experienced
uy' these 'petitioners. He remembered when .the
int/duct' of Aris, the Guyer:nor of Cold Bath-
fields',' wag under consideral hut, that similar
statement'ss` had been made in his favour.
Ya. by him (Ails) an act of cruelty:, had
been •cciinguittcd only pat allel by that related
ih"the caliOf a -prisoner in the Bastile, who had
Made a friend of a :i;!'irler, and who, when it was
his 'keeper, had telt the loss of
.iris com-
panion (rtio.ugh so loathcome an anim.d) a, if it
hail been dear.vst relation. A poor tuan, who
had vee'n 'confined io'Cold Batli•fields Prison for
fourteen or' fifteen months, had induced a bird to
entite throUgh- 'the hats to hint, till the little ani-
mal grew so familiar that it would feed with him,
'and usedtosit on his shoulder. . Aris visiting :01e
o
man. te:,illoroirtg, --saw the" bird in this situation,
and inonediateliypized it, and crushed 'tO
death in his Arts,, he i'resole
leeted with horritr, had prErved his Charac-
ter, notwithsondirM the charg•es brought against
'bigif and bad been- the subject of statement's
-similar to those -.he-h4id hiard.this night,. Which
had fallen froth 'Gentle:Mery who, lie bad no dOnbt,
were couriatteed they spcykt '-ro-th, but who had
but little investigated the merits of the case. On
:the isreQta' meals-ton, lteconterUled, it Mattered
not what Ward toiglit he ; be a Luddite—
ieT'llity he lhe roan who 'committed the late mur-
'ders ItT GrVeltrmiCili it was of no importance to this
dehttic,las-Otat on which the kionse had to decide
was the qvestiota, whether they should not in-
'quit'e. if tkielietitionerinow before the House liad
not hee.n.illi-grillycMifined, and as illegally fibe-.
rare& 1-le.ma,mained that the inquiry called'for
WBST tiecessrtry; Many of the l'titioners spOke
svel', of tlieirj.,ilors. It. Was said by one Of our
'' Seldom the steeled jailor is the
Mend' of It • now appeared that we had
many kind-hearted jailors, but that " the steeled
Aliirister‘ were not the friends of man." On ,the,
novernment he charged all that the petitioners.
'Lad suffered. The imprisonthents which had taken
lace Confci tioebe rielcuoled. as in them. both
Magna 'Charm and the' Bill of Rights were
violated. lVhile such 'powers were exercised. as
were elainied by that' 11ouse, it was nonsense to
talk of oriVhaving a Canstitution. He would ra-
ther such powers should he exercised bra King,
'fOr'theii the People might petition a House of
Commons With some 11011eS tit -ohtaining.redress,
A t-pieseut they Could only petition pro fornta
•
those by whom they were lopireo.
11Sr. WlL.BitrivoticE said' if he h'ad formerly
spoken 'irt fii.ioor of Aris, tile Governor of Cold-
braf.fieldS*Priion, it was on the authority of Mr.
Owen, the Chaplain-Getieral ; :and of a statement
tt..stingon such a loundatiou as lie had' in that
Genbleuran'i repOit, thr what he said never
could be asheined,, NoW he had giveo, up his
Authority, would the Hoh. Baronet give no his
for the bird story.? Ile 'Meant to vote again'st the
proposed inquiry, as in his opinion the )louse
Could oat hare a stronger presumption that it was
unnecessary than was furnished by the mass of
falielitiodS which the Petitions before them vvere
shcwri to conteMo; Ile defended %vitt! much ant-
' (toil it'll and' elmOeirce the Suspension of the
Habeas Corptis Act under Circumstances like those
which 'had Marked the last year.
• Sir F. BUSD'ETT s.tltt, rite story of the Bird he
had heard trout an Flo's. Georleman, formerly
Member for COYentrY (Mr. W. Bird.)
Mr. WILBERFO4IC6 explained.
• Sir S. ltoNitt.LY said, though Bills of tOderniiity
had in other times followed Suspensions of the
Habeas Corpus Act, one had never till now been
louuded on the Report of a Cumaiitte. Tire

cret Canirit:te:tras tat present sitting 13 s a Grand
Jury to receive cy.idence femn the. accuser; but
Unite from „the..,:tecused..,
.Tl:e . Petitiooers, had .1
been carried, prisoners_ ,to„almost every oArs .of•
the Kin•_..aloin., ..r hey ctiinplaitied,of having brew
cut off troth all rO.9llllllliCA.t 101 l AV itil their friends,'
and ;of :other , liardships..
,:'.r hese tallegatioos
ought to Jte inquired into, , that the. House.
~: . -
might know, the• facts on 'which they were to:
he called anon. to, pass a AM pt Indeinnity.--4-
The „Noble swell, tali! that the Act of Intleninity
of
,1801 was IQ, he the precedent for .the Act now
iO,CoureinplatiOn. ~And Ket the Noble Lord said, `1
that lftes such alit Act vvas passed, I:trim's might
brint; actious against jailers, pr others, for_criieliy,
although the words of .the Act,ot .18Q1, expressly'
providedobat all such a,ctions should be discharged.]
It was with much regret he heard the:seniiinents
which felt.frorn his I-ton. Friend,. (11Ir. Willicr-
force), lei here is prisoner complained of ill-.t reat-'
ment; it was 'very strange that 'Ore.:answer of the'
gaoler that•he bad notheen ill,treated was held as •
ol complete refutation of
.the charge. to
.such
cases tiie ;hottotir and :Veracity of .gaolers was
,not to,. - be,
,trusted. ; His Honourable Ft iend
"(Mr. W.) said, that if the truth of ,the Facts
~. .. .
iw the petitions were inquired Into
,'by,
,thcase
I MeMbers' whit brought thenitorward, thti(then lie
woutragree to an inviry , but that; as ,In tht
-present case no such previous ,inildity, had heel)
rnaffe, he'would not Vote in tavoor of the motiod
tot a Coininittee Of Inqiiiry, bid his Hou.Priend
forget that the Member. for Shrewsh.try, had ex-
presslyd
state, that he had inquired into the truth
of
the statements insane of the petitions ? ,-li this,
weteieeollected, he Bolted his,Hon. Friend would
-tread back his steps."-The truth was; that aniti..
- quiry preparatory to a-,ltill of Indemnity was cont.
uteneetl ~ by Ali iiisfers , themselves •,- an :inquiry
where nothing was produced but the evidence
-alone of the parties accused. The object of the
present motion was, that the accuser's should
have an opportunity •of . prodncing, their evi-
dence, He wished. it expressly to be under-
stoOd, that he did not mean to sty that any.
-of the acts of which the petitioners complain-
ed were illegal ; . yet they wet e acts of gross
cruelty atidoppression. Was -it nothingAat tnen
Were arrested and putt in chains, and,carded.about
front place to place, eipose& to the. eyes of
,tlie
pirpolace, as the evidences-of that dreadful plot
on which the system acted upon by Minist eoc was
supported ? Ha verily believed iliat,the motive. in
Moving about the prisorwr,s in irons from place to
-place was to exhinit them to the public:with the
view of producing•an effect of Ibis kind. ' It was
to be,hoped, -thatt he Ilonse would -be at length
toused to the danger of the system lately acted
upon. 11 nut, 'the melancholy result Could easily
be anticipated, For even, as in-Rome of old, the
frequent use of a Dictator- led to,the, perpetual
Dictatorship, which finally destroyed the liberties
of the people, 50 in this'coontly the freptent sus-
pension or die Habra; Corpus Act must end in its
total repeal.
Mr. AsuußsT, in a low tone, read-a letter
,giv-
ing an account of the stale of the Goal at Ox-
fold, trout the •ItepOrt of ,'the MagistrareS, Who
hail e\pressly examined into;Ore truth of,the coma
plaints made by some of the State prisoners. It
turned ont firm) exa winati9n that all these cow
0-
0 din r s were in terly unfounded or frivOlons.
,fr Nr. IloLstii SUMNEU thought that the Noble
' LOrd whose 11106 M) Wit* brought betorethe noose
1 had not acted quite fairly ; for although his notice
referred to only erne petition, yet, he bad travel-
t I led into the cases of all the petitions laierbe-

Ore the ,klous'e, by prisoners confined under. the
Suspension Act. It so happened that he Or.
Stunner) could speak as to the. truth ,-).f
tibns iiione of titose petit ions—thatolOgden. With
respe;f to. the petition he must say, that he (ibuld
bring fOrwrd twenty witnesses to prove that 0g—

den hittiseit bad contradicted many of the'allega-
tions in It. He could speak positively. on di is•suiv-
jeer ; for an -Hon. Friend of his, one ot.the. Ma-
,gilitriites:.for,the county of,Snrrey, had visiteif tise•
gant,,..and inquired into the (acts of Ogden'S:case.
It'eerteinly was true that the; prisdners• had been'
put in. irons, bet not that he had, been heavily'
honed ; end oil it representation being made' to
the Secretary of State the irons were taken off; h
Was expressly. proved by Mr. Dickson -(the most
'respectable andhumane Gentleman .who was em-
ployed to give medical advice and assistance .to
prisoners) that, Ogden brought into, gaol with
him that complaint for•which he afterwards
derw,ent a skilful and successful operation. And so
humane had been the., attention • paid to Ogden,
that the titan himself repeatedly.. expressed-his
thankfulness„. that. being brought 40 •gaol had
been the means of curing bins ‘orthat complaint,
which under less .skilful treatment than that of
Mr. Dickson, . the prisoner, himself said. linigitt
have tetminated The. prisoner had also
expressed. much gratitude to the gaoler. ''So much
for, the truth of the allegations in this. Petition,
which Was the only one among- those before, the:
House of
.which h,e 14new any thing. Some Gen-
clement _however, wished to persuade the, House..
to believe till that the Petitioners stated; and
nothing that the gaolers stated in theirlustifica-i
tion. It must
.be its the recollectior, of thellouse
that an inquiry was instituted souse years a.4oioto
the state 'of the gaols of Liticoln and. Lancaster,
the, result of which was, that there wat.no serious
cause of complaint. An. Hon.. Baronet .(Sir F.
Burdett) must recollect the result of a..CoMmittee
.appointed at ' his instance to inquire into .the
grievances of, a foreigner. ot. the name of Colville,
who had, beets taken up and imprisoned. The re-
sult that the Cuitstitittee was unanimously of
opinion that there was no troth in the allegations
of the petitioner as to cruel:treatment.
Sir F. 13u eney'r said, that ne was a. Member. of
the Commit tee:mentioned by the llon..Gentletnan
who spoke,last, and.r.hat that Committee had..been
1111dIlhn011i againse his. (Sir .F.-litsrdett's) opinion.
,IiF;NtIcT insisted
.that the coin.Pbtint i)t
which &Adel' had' been Fortunately cnred in pri-
shit was caused by his being frond lilacs
to place ,heavkly maiptAined.
the letter rend by
.the Ilononrable Cient,lesoan
(Mr. Aditir'st) was not contrndietioh t.)
the allegations in the Petition'; Although sucli
letters
.ihight he proOncecLand. read :in the Howie
by way of floerish, and .to. give effect to, the
opposition to such a motion as the present, haven
what the Noble Lord (Castlereagh) stated

in no.,stitaY cnntradicted Ott -a"centlnt'iieen by
in his pettrion...,.l.As:ps,Tri, stafe7.
rnenti,ln th.e Peeition.:ot. Alr.,liagnley that e hitt
he,en:phinged into a cold Nib, he,emald
that he.had conversed with ,the petitioner spice
that the statement Intil been, contrrn44,;,d, and
that he said he, was avillink.ro .prove,r. -by Ilk
A.• to its being said- kltar the p tilioner
had refused ,tp, attend at . chinch, ht. ht7ggert the.
lipase to attend to the.,reason given hy.thy peti-
.whtell, was, that ,he.woold,, not consent to
sit ,in the sam.e ..pew with ii, prisoner itt a felon's
dress. He believed all. the facts stated in the pe.
tic ions to. be true, and he would therefore vote tot
the..motiott. „ „.. .

,
Nr.:Pti.mu ars rose, midst much coughing and
cries of .epiestbni,,to confirm . the statement
tuade. by his Hon. Friend. (Mr. Bennet) relatih
to sOgdett,,,
The ATTortNEv-GEr ERAr. said, no man Could
read Ogden's petition, without observing that' it
was!.meant to convey the impression 'that the
. weight of his chains had,causrd the hernia to
.burst and, render a chirurgierti operation neces-
sary. l,t seemed „now to be.. admitted that .no
such impression could be produced by A true
stateriwnt of. the facts of .the case. Notwith.-
'sranding„ . was said about the Indelimily
Ad•of .1801, in point, of law that. Act would not
any Truth y or oppression on the part of' a
gaoler. 'After an /V.( a ggoler would still be
amenable to a civil or. criminal prosecution for
such acts of cruelty or oppression. His
Learned Friend•(Sir Satituel-Rourill4had givetra
colouring to tßese Vaies which %;ere not fair,
'when. Lie stated thatthe pi isoners were exhibited
To•prodoce an impression on the public ntintl. fhe
truth was, that in choosing the places of conqie-
Meta for the persons whom it was necessary to
arrest, the s,,,fest and Most commodious gaols
were. chosen. •- The Noble Lord who brought
forward the motion complained of the 7 pri-
.soners , beittg -set at large without trial.—
Allere was nothing in the law that rendered it tie-
cessopy •to afetain a State Prisoner after it was
4onn&that. there.was not sufficient wound for a
prosecution. The Secretary of State had a power
:to.commit, and a power to discharge on his otrti
warrant. Tice lion. and Learned {lent.. then en•-
tered into an able discassi4n of the salutary effects
produced by the arrest of the•rinpleaders of those
plots,,which, if not then prevented, would have
ovetturned the Government, the Laws, and the
Liberties of the. Country.
My. W. LAMB wished to say a few words in
explanation of the vote which he should give. The
.chiet allegations in the petitions were for unjust
detention. The allegations of ill treAment were
comparativelylew. if the motion had been for'a
Committee to inquire into 'the truth of ate allega.
• lions of ill treatment, he would not have objected
to it : •but the present twotion teas in such general
reruns, that it invoked ques.ions which ought not
to be sent to a. Committee, especially while there
Was a Secret Committee hate sitting by a !poi u t
men' of the House, whose inquiries were directed
to the general question. With liit tietc, be felt
it his ihoy to vote agains• the motion.
Lord FOLKESTONE t eplied.—t lo said lie It of no
objection,that.the Committee for which he moved
.should Committee.
The House then divided— •
the Ml oral • 59 •
Against it , . 167
Majority against titr Motion.— ,---!--109
AiEsNE PR(cEss.
Mr. OGLE rlloved for leave to briti2. in a. Rill to
abolish Imprisonment for Debt On Mesuc Pr,)cess.
—Negatived without a division.
Adjourned at One o'clock this.unn