The Sun.
London, England, 1845-06-03 00:00:00

IPSWICH AND THETPORD LINE.

The Bill for this project being unopposed, formal evidence was
taken on the traffic, plans, and sections, and the preamble and
clauses were immediately passed.
The Committee adjourned at four o'clock.

GROUP L.
PORTSMOUTH ATMOSPHERIC LINE.

The Committee on group L sat this morning on the atmospheric
line to Portsmouth. Present, Mr. E. B. Denison in the chair; Mr.
Oswald, Lord Clive, Mr. R. M. Milnes, and Mr. Vyvian.
The Hon. Mr. TALBOT, Q.C., opened in favour of the promoters,
and in the course of his observations stated that if there had been a
more important string of towns to which for the first time the South-
Western Company were about to give the benefit of railway com-
munication, he could not for a moment pretend to contend with the
right they claimed to supply the two important ports of Southamp-
ton and Portsmouth with their transit to London, but such was not
the case, and it was evident that if the South-Western Company
obtained their line they would provide but an inefficient line and
deprive their shareholders of a portion of their revenues, as the
return on the Portsmouth line must be an abstraction of the re-
turns from the line to Southampton. If two means of convey.
ance, however, were established, there would be all the advantages
which could possibly be derived by the public, while neither of the
companies could possibly be injured. In addition to this, the pro-
pesed line directly to Portsmouth introduced a new principle, which
all allowed to be of the utmost importance if it were available. The
bugbear of amalgamation, however, could not here affect
the question, because the proposed line must go through the
lands of several companies. By the establishment of the atmos-
pheric line, there would moreover not only be the benefit of corn.
petition but the advantages of the testing of a new principle of the
highest importance. The expense of constructing a double
line of atmospheric railway was undoubtedly greater than the
construction of a single locomotive line, but equally undoubted
was it that it was not superior, even if it were equal to the con-
struction of a double locomotive line. The expense of working
an atmospheric line was far less than that of a locomotive line, and
in proportion as the trade increased the cost of transit was reduced.
The first expense was greater, but the po;ver was concentrated, and the
interest of the Company was evidently to increase the number of
trains. It was, therefore, intended that the Company should make
their trains as numerous as possible. On the locomotive lines it
was the interest of the Company to attach as many carriages, whe-
ther of passengers or goods, as they could to one train, so as to re-
duce their expenditure. An instance of this was given lately by
the London and Birmingham Railway Company, who had refused
passengers, except by their usual trains, while, on the other hand,
it will be to the benefit of the Atmospheric Railway Company to
send as few passengers, even as few as ten, by one train. By
the report of the Select Committee on the atmospheric principle,
it appeared that that principle was, except at the
crossing places, both safer and cheaper. In another place they
came to the decision that the cost was in all respects cheaper ; and
in deciding on competing lines of railway, it was always to be re-
membered that it should not be held to be an objection to an at-
mospheric line, simply because the gradients on that line were too
severe to be overcome by a locomotive train. He was prepared to
call the same witnesses as had been examined before the Select
Committee. He thought that it was unfair that they, who had
been throughout opposed to the atmospheric principle, should take
the benefit out of the hands of those who had struggled day by day,
and inch by inch, to carry out a new principle. It was ne-
cessary to make this statement, as the Berwick Atmospheric
Company had lately been placed in a false position, in consequence
'their witnesses, Mr. Brunel included, not having been cross_exa-
mined, while the witnesses against it, including Mr. Stephenson,
Mr. Harrison, and other eminent men in that way, had been kept
under examination for three weeks. He, therefore, claimed the
right of making the examination in chief short, but of recalling
his witnesses for re-examination, so as to elicit as much information
as was necessary to explain or refute the evidence.
The room was cleared for consideration, and on the re-admission
of strangers

The CHAIRMAN stated, that considering that by the report of
the Select Committee, Parliament had allowed the practicability of
the atmospheric principle, and had sanctioned its application,
therefore they thought that it would be unnecessary to adduce
evidence to demonstrate its advantages.

Mr. TALBOT said that this met part of his difficulties, but it did
not altogether relieve him from the difficulty of establishing the
superiority of the atmospheric principle as tested by fare, speed,
and safety. He thought that some declaration should be made by
the counsel on the other side as to the course they intended to
pursue with regard to the cross.examinatioa of the witnesses he
might call.
Mr. GURNEY, Q.C., stated the course adopted by Mr. Talbot
was the result of consultation between the gentlemen engaged on
behalf of the promoters, and he thought that as he was alone this
morning he ought to have the same advantages before he gave a
decisive reply.
Mr. Tamen assented to the reasonableness of the proposition,
and proceeded to say that he should say nothing further respecting
the atmospheric principle, except to state that it was untried—that
the works on the atmospheric line to Epsom were abandoned. The
line was certainly not laid down, but it had not been urine.
cessarily delayed. The proposed line was intended to
restore to the country the traffic which had hitherto
passed through the district, and to save the ruinous
consequences of a permanent abstraction of the traffic. The line
proposed to pass through Croydon to Epsom by the line now in
formation, thence to Leatherhead, Micklam, Dorking, Gcdalming,
Haslemere, Havant, Chichester, and nearly the same route as the
other line. The population had been stated very unfairly by the
other side, it being in reality 132,000 on the atmospheric line
against 119,000 on the other line. The fares proposed by the
atmospheric line for first.elass passengers would be 2d. per mile,
for second-class passengers lad. a mile, and for third class pas.
sengers Id., making the fare for the whole way, for first-class
passengers I Is. 6d. against 215.; second class 9s. against 14s. ; and
6s. for third-class against 6a. 6d. The distance was 69 against 53
miles; the capital 1,400,0001. against 1,000,0001. The works were
much the same, the tunnelling on the atmospheric line being
4,230 yards, while on the Guildford line there would be about 4,217
yards. The Atmospheric Company proposed to dispatch 15 trains
every day both ways, and to attach third-class carriages to two-
thirds of the trains, while the South. Western Company only sent
nine trains a day, and only one regular third-class train both ways.
The time which would be occupied in the journey to Portsmouth
by the atmospheric line would be 2* hours, while the
South-Western Company would require 33i hours, being a
saving of nearly one half. The traffic had also been unfairly re.
presented, there having been an evident attempt to under-rate the
traffic from Portsmouth. By the coach travelling there had been
formerly ten coaches a day, making twenty journeys, thus giving
an aggregate of 7,300 journeys in the course of the year, which,
at the usual average of nine passengers each journey, made at
least 65,700, at 10s. each journey, gave a total of 37,8b01 a
year ; doubling this, after the usual railway communication,
made 65,7001. Adding to this 20,0001. more for incidental pas.
sengers, and 10,0001. for parcels, gave upwards of 90,000/. a year.
exclusive of a great portion of the intermediate traffic. By the
Guildford line there would be twenty-four public roads crossed at
a level, while there would only be eight crossed at a level by the at.
mospheric line. He had only further to observe that he might,
perhaps, have to trespass on the Committee to some length with the
traffic, because that had been so much dwelt upon by the opposite
party. With these observations Mr. Talbot closed his address,
and called

Mr. Grover, a provision-merchant at Portsea, who testified to
the general convenience of the termini both at London.bridge and
at Portsmouth, espeeially the latter, where the road where the
railway terminated was the highway entrance to Portsea, and
amply broad enough for the purpose.
Mr. Redwarn, a fishmonger and importer of foreign fruit, stated
that he had a considerable quantity of goods from London, for
which he had to pay ss. a ton for cartage, and the terminus at
London-bridge would be of the utmost convenience, as when yes.
seis arrived too late in the tide, they could be got down the same
evening, while they would of necessity be too late either
for Vauxhall or Hungerferd. He now paid 3001. a-year for car-
riage from London, and would, if this railway were made, have
all his London goods by rail, instead of, as now, having a large
quantity coastwise.
To the inquiries of the CHAIRMAN', the witness stated that he paid
ss. a ton for carriage to Vauxhall, 20s. thence to Gosport, and ss.
more thence to Portsea. He was not aware that the terminus at
London-bridge had no communication with the water.
Mr. James W. White, a linendraper, stated that he had fre-
quently been obliged to have goods by van, instead of by rail, in
consequence of the delay, arising partly from the distance of
the terminus at Vauxhall from the City, and from
the early hour at which it was necessary for the
goods to be there. The van was, however, now taken off
the road, and great inconvenienee was now felt, as the wholesale
houses in the City were generally very busy just at the time when
the goods ought to ne sent off, and thus a day was lost. It was his
of inion that the feeling in favour of the atmospheric line was very
strong.
Mr. Marshall, clerk of the Commissioners of the town o
Portsea, testified to the narrowness of the road through the gate
over the Unicorn.bridge, it being a single line of road and was
the only means of access to the town of Portsea.
To the cross-examination of Mr. M. Sarni, the witness stated
that passengers might by another route get into the Lion-gate.road
which was the main approach to Portsea. The termini of the
two railways were about a quarter of a mile from each other.
MT. James Paul, a brewer and ale and porter merchant at
Parties, stated that he should make a considerable saving if the
proposed line were formed. He had had 53 tons down early in
May, the cost of which for freight, wharfage, and insurance was
49/. IBs., while, according to the reduced rate of the South.
Western Railway, it would have been 26/. 12s. for all the ex-
penses. By the atmospheric line the charge would be only about
two.thirdi of the latter sum. All his ale, and most of his
porter went by water, and as much as five or six weeks' delay
frequently occurred. If the terminus were at London-bridge he
should save Is. a barrel in carriage, and he thought that if this
terminus were used that all the goods would go by rail,
and the trade to Gosport would almost entirely cease. The ter-
minus at Portsmouth was also much more convenient than that of
the Guilford Extension line. He testified also as to the feeling
of the town, and to the signatures to the petition.
The Committee here adjourned till twelve o'clock to.morrow.