The Sun.
London, England, 1818-04-22 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

A Person from the Bank presented Accounts of the narm-
ber of persons prosecuted for passing forged Tokens and Dol-
lars.—Ordered to be printed.
Th,. Report of the CoMmittee on the Hallamshire Cutters'
Petition was taken into cooSideration and agreed to, and a
Bill for regulating the tt-ade ordered to be brought in.
Lord BINNING presented a Petition from the Proprietors
of certain Salt Works in Scotland, praying that no alteration
may be made in the Salt Duties.—Ordered to be printed.
Sir J. GRAHAM brought in a Bill to auginent the Salaries
of the Chancery Cleik,s in the Report 'Ottice.--r-Read a first,
and ordered to be read a second time to-morrow.
On the ;notion of Mr, C. CALVERT, an Account, chewing
the amount of the duties paid on calico prints in the yearS
1816 and 1817, distinguishing the amount in each year, and
the produce of the old and new duties, was ordered to be laid
before the House.
On the motion of Gen. GASCOIGNE, the Costs of Suit
Bill went through a'Cummittee; the Report of which was or-
dered to he received to-morrow.
A Petition was presented from the Parish of St. Mary,
Woolnot h. against the Parish Vestries' Bill.—Ordered to lie
on the Table.
Mr. HART DAVIS presented a Petition froth Bristol
against the Bill for altering the Poor Laws.
My. pRoTHERO stated the Petition to hare been signed
by very few of the inhabitants.
Mr. II DAVIS offered a few words in reply, and the Peti-
tion was read and ut &red to lie on the Table.
USURY LAWS.

Mr. Sergeant ONSLOW rose. pursuant to notice, to submit
to the House a motion on'the subject of the lasts against
Usury. He briefly described the COurse which the mistaken
policy of our ancestors bodied them to take, and asserted that
the measures which they had thought it necessary to adopt
laid by no meaes accomplished the purpose they had in view
when r:aming them. He, had convinced the Chancellor of the:
Exchequer of the Ito-opriety of taking this subject into Consi.
der,tion, and had brought in a Bill in the last. Session, which
passed unopposed to the report, when on the recommendation
of the Secretary of State fur Foreign Affairs he (Mr. Otislow)
had consented to let it stand over for further investigation.-
- He was glad that he had done so, for the consequence had
been the attention of the world had been drawn to it by va-
rious writers, and the subjett had been treated With
great ability, especially in-one pamphlet (by Mr. Cooke)
which he had read, and found to contain the soundest ()pi/.
pions and most forcible arguments. The only groin autho-
rity that he cited in favour of the Usury Laws, was that of
Dr. Adam Smith ; and the opinion he had given on this sub-
ject in his celebrated work, he had, after publication, with
the magnanimity which belonged to a great mind, thought it
dotv to withdraw. The evil consequence which it had
been supposed would follow an alteration of the existing law,
growing out of the right of foreclosure in cases of distress, he •
showed were not likely to arise ; whilst on the contrary he
could riot out many injuries that were now sustained, which
were the effects of the present laws, that 'night he prevented
if a measure like that which he would recommend to the
House were adopted. The Chambers of Commerce of Bir-
mingham and Glasgow hail declared in favour of ah alteration
of the Usury Laws, and he trusted the propriety of complying
with their wishes in this instance would at no distant day be
admitted. Thinking it right to bow to the opinions of others,
be would not noiv move for leave to bring in a Bill, but be
would content himself with moving for a Committee to take
into considei ation the effect of the existing laws against
Usury. He concluded by moving for the appointment of a
Select Committee to consider of the effect of the Laws
now in force to regulate or restrain the rate of interest of
money.
General MITCHELL thought the measure in contempla-
tion would he much objected to in Ireland, and expected
many counter petitions would be presented on the subject.
He proceeded to point out the inconveniences which he ap-
prehended would result from altering the laws against Usury,
and appealed to the House if such a measure could be neces-
sary at a time like the present, when (as had been stated ih
the debate of yesterday) every body could borrow at 41. per
cent. interest. He had never known the time when. mo-
ney could not he raised on lauded property at an interest of
51. per cent. He thought they ought to pass to-the Order of
the Day,
Mr. J. P. GRANT spoke in favour of the motion. On this
subject nearly all parties were agreed ; and few, if any, de-
ruled that the existing. laws ("some of them at least) ought to
be repealed. H• retofore, when this subject was brought for-
ward, those-who objected to an alteration of !the Usury Laws
had said, the question ought not to be raised at a time when
the interest of money was so high. Now, the House had been
told a change was unnecessary, because the rate' of interest
was low, though till now he had always understood the pro-
per time fur taidng into eonsidetation the proposed change
was when the rate of interest was reduced, as it was at pre-
sent. He should most cordiallrvute for the proposition of his
Hon. and Learned Friend.
Mr. CA LCRAET retained on this subject the opinions
which he had expressed last yeat. He Should vote for the
Committee, but doing this, he wished it to be understood
that he gave no pledge that he would support,the Bill which /
tin/Honourable and Learned Gentleman wished to bring in,
unless his opinion- should be altered by the Report of the
Committee. .

General TI-lORNTON thottght the extension of the rum.
gore proposed to be introduced to Ireland would be highly
beneficial. A law of ma ;rim am was as injurious applied to
looney, as it wag confessed to be applied to any thing else.
Geoeril NIITCHELL did not wish to oppose the appoint-
went of the C.:ommittce, as the sen3e of the House seemed to
be in its favour. He therefore, for the present,,withdrew his
.opposition.
Mr. Sergeant ONSLOW replied. He wished the measure
to extend to Ireland. He knew of no part of the United
Kingdom that was inure likely to henefit by it. Ireland wanted
capaal, which was kept out of it by the existing laws.

The motion was agreed to, and a Committee fo:thw•ith ap-
. pointed.

' WINDOW TAX IN IRELAND.

Mr. R. SnA‘v ruse, pursuant .to the notice iFe
11,1;! given, to move that the petition presented by

' him from Dublin, and all the other petitions re-
ceived front Ireland on the subject of the Window
Tax, should be referred to a Committee. Ireland,
for the last twenty-five years, had most cheerfully
contributed her share to carry on the contest in
which this country bad, been engaged. When
peace-returnee, a general expectation was enter-
rained that they would be reli6'ed from the Taxes
that pressedanost heavily upon them. In parti-
cular they were led to hope that the
.Window Tax
woul4 be repealed. He thought they had pecu-
liar and strong grounds for entertaining such a
hope. The Tax, when first imposed, was to last
during the war, and no longer. To prove thiS
he referred to what had passed in the Irish Parlia-
ment, when the Window Tax was first brought
forward in that country ; from which it appeared
that Mr. Corry, then Chancellor or the Exche-
quer for Ireland, had stated it to be merely a %Vat.
Tax, and its continuance was liMited to three
years and no longer, it the war should continue
so long. Ireland had borne it to the end of the war,
and conceived herself now to be entitled to relief.
The hardships to which the people of Ireland
were exposed while this duty was continued be
shelved to be very great, and though all the provi-
sions of the law might hot be acted upon, that
they existed and could be acted upon Was an evil
which ought to be done away. The effects of this
Tax causing windoWs 'to be stopped up which
• were necessary for ventilation, had made that part
or Dublin which was chiefly inhabited by the
lower orders miserably unwholesome. The alarm
svhich this occasioned had reached the Govern-
ment, and the Right Honourable Gentleman op-
posite, who had so long.governed Ireland in a
manner satisfactory to every body, had, on this
Occasion, acted a part worthy of hintself. Supe-
rior to considerations of finance, he had directed
all the windows necessary for ventilation to be
opened, and provided that the inhabitants of
houses where this had become necessary should
not be liable to any additional charge for such
windows. This measure had been found .neces-
sary to preserve Dublin from art impet,ding plague.
He proceeded to compare the financial exertions
made by Ireland with those of England, and con-
tended, that in proportion to her means, she had
done even more than this country. He shoved
•he pressure upon her to have been greater-Allan
she could bear, by comparing the produce .6f the
Window and Hearth Taxes, on which he shoved,
from the year eliding 6th February, 1816, to that
ending 14'eliruary 6, 1818, there had been a fall,
ink; off of 112,0001. ; 80,000 and upwards on the
Windows, and thirty-two thousand pounds on
the Hearth Dirties. Within the same period, the
insolvenries'for Window Taxes had increased in a
proportionate degree. Under all the.circumstances
of the case, he appealed to the Right Hon.
Gentleman, if it could be policy to persevere in
duties which were tints rapidly falling off, and if,
while the sum of 14,000,0001. was to be-raied.to
spare the people of this country burdens which
might he avoided, the paltry:sum Of 300,0001.
(the amount of the Window, ,Tax) ought not to
be raised for the relief of the people of Ireland.
He concluded by moving for the appointment-of
a Select Committee, to consider of the expediency
of repealing an Act Of the 56th of. the King, re-
specting Duties on Hearths and ‘VintloWs in Ire-
land.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, the
Hon. Gentleman had rested his case on two

grounds ; first, on a supposed pledge given that
the Window Tax should not be continued in a
time of Peace ; and secondly, on the hardships to
which it subjected the people, and on the imprac-
ticability of collecting it. He could never admit
that the Government were bound in good faith to
repeal the Tax when the war was at an end. In
tact, to have done this, seeing it had been pledg-
ed for certain loans which had been raised for the
service of the country, would have been an act of
injustice to the public creditor. No pledge to
repeal it bad been given that he was aware of,
and a proof would be found in the circtunstance
of its not having been repealed during the Peace
of Amiens. Ireland, he contended, had been
treated with, great liberality in her financial con-
nexions with England. He sheaved that she had
not in every instance borne her full share of the
burdens which had fallen on. the nation ; and
though more than 200,006,0001. had been raised
in England, which formed no part of the sums
pledged to the public creditor, yet even this itn-
mense sum was not sufficient, and the people of
this country had still to bear three or four mil-
lions of continued war taxes, under the head of
Excise. Ile was as anxious to relieve Ireland
from taxation as he could be to relieve this coun-
try; but he could not admit her claim was so
strong as the, Hon. Gentleman conceived it to be.
He admitted the assessed taxes of Ireland (and
especially the Window Tax), bad been increased
with a rapidity but ill calculated to produce a
permanent revenue. He was, however, far from
considering this a matter of reproach to his pre-
decessor. The duty he had to perform was one
of extreme difficulty. He bad to provide for the
letans of the year ; and to raise the sums neces-
sarily called for, he found himself obliged to im-
pose the English taxes in all the articles of taxa-
tion. That the continuance of these duties caus-
ed much distress, which had been aggravated by
a scarcity of provisions, could not he denied,
and he was of opinion it might not be _impro-
per to afford a degree of relief from that parti-
cular Tax to the people of Ireland.—(Hear,
hear, hear !)—This might be practicable, and
he certainly had it in contemplation. A
schedule was preparing which, when furnished,

. .
would spew the [-louse what were the modifica-

tions intenderL: The general principle of his plan

.. . .
went to relieve the people of Irerand flom. the
additional 25 per cent. laid on some years ago,
where, from the pressure of distress, this shmild
be found necessary. In other places where the

pressure was not so great, a smaller scale of re-

ief might be adopted.

Other eirctinistances cop-

nected with this subject woul►l uecebsarily be

brought under the coU'sideration of the House,

but on these he di•! not wish to enter till the

schedule could be produced. From the Returns
on the table of the House, he was. led to hope
that the situation of Ireland had of late improved,

and that the clouds which had hung ove; her
Would soon be dispersed. He could 'not 'aliPrOve

of the resent motion. The relief .which he' bad

" announced would, be thought, be better than
going into a Committee for the chance of still
greater 'relief. He was willing to try what could
be done, but when it was ren►einbered how nu-
- merous were the claims for relief which bad been
forwarded from both countries in the present
Session, he could not but-feel, that it became
Parliament to make a fair stand, and only give
way in cases where the distress was most obvious
and severe. Such be considered the present case
to he, and therefore it was that he was anxious if
possible to afford the sufferers relict.
Mr. PLUNKETT was sorry a motion so moderate
as that submitted to the House by his Honourable
Friend had not been acceded to by the Chancel-
lor of ll►e ExcheqUer. His conduct. in this in-
stance4ifforded no exemplification of that disposi-
tion for which he gave himself credit. The Right
Hon. Gentleman had contended that Government
were not bound in good faith
,to repeal the Win-
dow Tax at the close of the war, by what had
fallen from the Irish Chancellor of the Exche-
quer. But he (Mr. Plunkett) begged to refer
them to the language of the Acts of Parliament
themselves. From these he contended, that the
Window Tax.was imposed merely as a war tax in
1799, and in the Act which passed a year after-
wards, it would be found that this tax was im- •
• ppsed " for keeping up an efficient force of
43,073 Men." It was therefore expressly enacted
to maintain a war establishment ; and if this were
not under such circumstances a war tax, he did
not know what a war tax was. In an Act of the
same Session, for preventing frauds, and for the
better collecting of this duty, it was enacted that
it should continue in force three years, provided
the war should continue so long. He was sur-
prisemr after this that time Right Hon, Gentleman
should have doubt's on the subject of its having
been merely a war duty ; and, if any yet remained
in his mind, he trusted they did not'extend to any
body else. If it had not been repealed at the
time the Peace of Amiens was concluded, as it
ought to have been, that was no reason for re-
fusing to repeal it now. But for the Right Hon.
Gentlethan to do so would be an act of injustice
to the public creditor. This objection had been
answered by the Chancellor of. the: Exchequer
himself, when he offered to take off 25 per cent.
If he considered- that to repeal the Tax would be
to break -faith with the public creditor, he would
ask the Right lion. Gentleman ifm he meant to
break faith with the public Creditor, or if he
considered the reduction of a fourth part of the
Tax to be hut the fourth part of a breach of faith?
The more he thought on the subject, the more

he was surprised that the motion for a Committee
should be resisted. He proceeded to show, by
a series of financial statements, that the increase
of duties had tailed to produce a corresponding
increase of re,Penue. Ireland, he admitted, had not
contributed her 2-17rhs to the exigencies of the
.State, which she was bound to provide by the Act
of Union ; but he maintained that she had never-
theless furnished her fair proportion according to
-
her means, hild must not be taxed beyond her
strength. In England, since the war, the people
had been relieved of taxes to the amount of
17,000,000/.—in Ireland the burdens from which
they had been relieved exceeded nor 2 or 300,0001
The ChancellOr of the Exchequer had wished to
retain the Income Tax in time of peece", and had
said, without it the business of the country could
not be carried on ; yet when the House decided
that it •should be.aboliihcd, be voluntarily sur-
rendered the War Malt Duty. Having yielded
thus to the sense of the people of England, he
would ask the Right Hon. Gentleman if on the
present occasion be ought not to bow in the same
way to the people of Ireland ? Time relief an-

nouneed had been said to be preferable to the
Committee. lie wished to take the relief offered

and go into the Committee.

Mr. PEEL declared no man, however nearly
connected with Ireland, could be more anxious to
see her relieved from taxation than he was ; but
before they took off her burdens, they must con-
sider what means other bodies possessed, on whom
if she were relieved, they must be thrown. He
contended the Governn►ent were not bound in good
faith to repeal the Window Tax at the close of the
ar by any pledge that had bee►► given by the
Irish Chancellor of the Exchequer. Mr. Corry,
who, on proposing it, had said it was a tax new,
to Ireland, bad not calculated on its producing
more than 60,0001. and he had said " on the re-

turn of peace, if it were found a grievance or a
burden, it could he taken off," but saying this he
had not bound his successors in.offiee to procure
its repeal when peace returned. In 1800, another
Act of Parliament renewed the tax for three
years, and in the same Session air Act passed for
regulating the collection of it. By the first
Act that passed, all houses had been rated ac-

cording to the number of windows open on the
Ist of January, 1799.,, This was very naturally
complained of, and accordingly, in the year
1800, it was enacted, that that regulation should
continue in force for three years longer, if the
war should last so long, and then, or if peace
should come sooner, those regulations, and not
the Tax, were to be abolished, and housei were
in future to he rated on the same principle as in
England. Peace came within the three years,

and then the Tax continued, but the objection-
able regulations ceased. Mr. Corry afterwards
renewed the Tax Without considering that he %vas

in any way guilty of a breach of good faith. In
1807 the Right Hon. Baronet "(Sir John New-

port) brought in a Bill for regulating the pay-
ment of this Tax in Ireland in the same manner

as in England. But he could, not find that any
clause had been introduced into that Bill, con-
taining or even implying a pledge that the Tax
should continue only during the time of war.--,
This part of his argument was, he thought, quite
sufficient to satisfy the House of the fallacy of
the notion that there was any such pledge given
as had been asserted. There ivas a part of the
argumcnt..against this Tax which would be en-

titled to much more consideration than all that

had been said about a pledge, namely, if it could
he shewn that this Tax increased the extent of

the contagious fever in Ireland. When he (Mr.
Peel) was engaged in investigations relative to
the fever, it occurred to him that some windows

might have been closed, which if opened might
have assisted the -recovery of patients, and pre-
,iented t h'e progress of disease. With this view it

500
was that he had thought it his duty to Is f
official order, authorising the opening. °viola
window which a medical man should certif.,' TO
by being opened contribute to the hell" ;',J611
inhabitants. The result of this order o°,olo
very fair criterion for judging how far it W,aere
that this Tax had contributed to increase °loth(
valence pf the fever. 'What, tioen, bad bee this
number of applications in consequence O eiitt
order? In Dublin, not one; in Kildare, not °I)e;
Waterford, only one ; in Limerick, "I ire,
Cork, none. Io short, over the whole °„os(°
land, there had only been seven applieatti 110
have windows opened in consequence O.s th,,
order.— Hear, hear, hear !)—frorn
might he fairly deduced that this lax ha 01°
operated to increase the fever. When thetoefl,
of houses chief' affected by this tax u'65.00
into considerationy , it would be seen that tlilsfel
what might be expected. lii Irelaed,co,
house having less than seven windows an jj(Jot/
hearths, was exemed frotn the tax. Ile
mean to say that his tax did not bear in", 115
ip
on the lower orders of the people. .13p rill
direct operation could not have any of
the fever. It must therefore be clears
argument founded on the effect of this tasVed
reference to the fever, must want all force;
was one other part of the argument to t",sioe
must refer. It was,-that there had not beets dit
the peace a remission of taxes in
same proportion as in Great Britain. 1,1); 01
completely fallacious. England raised
Taxes by the Property Tax and others, 111.07 bl
not extend to Ireland. Ireland raised litoll sclle#
way of loan. By the consolidation of tile od
piers of the two kingdoms, Englauti hati.bste
herself liable for the loans of Ireland•
fore, it could net be said that Ireland `;l,ogl,,f'
fairly treated. On the whble question,
no greater reduction could now be [lode,
t doe
tax than that now proposed by his
Friend. b
Sir JOHN NEWPORT said, be tbotigh‘-:ei
persuade the House that those who '''',9"catsil(g„'
the remission of this lax, favoured 9'l"a:ft iy;
which, in' its relief, must principallY eer,
lower classes. With respect to the fectwol'Al
pledged himself that the concurw" "5,2 i I°-
of medical men allowed that the coutag.lol"4:,
been extended by the stopping up of 'es t"
He could speak with particular colinaerieerojei
and on the authority of Dr. BarrY, Ije .tlfef
tained that the spreading of the contagl dr"!
was to be traced to windows being; eh'se(i et tile
As a proof of this, it had been found treat
lower apartments of lodging-houses, whe
windows were not closed up, were in a cote''`'
healthy state, while the, tipper apart te
windows had been clnsed'Up, were ° 54„f the
anentably diseased. So much for this par' the
ergument, when, on the very showing °0
Right Hon. Gentleman (who said that `vbehillt
health 'of the people was concerned evetYh are'
else should give way), this Tax oughttc' /re
pealed. Then as to the financial state °
land, he maintained that the repeal Of theserP
was a measure not only
for the country was no longer able if,
it. It was
,no act of grace for Great Styli
to take upon itself -the liability for tnhe
of Ireland, because it was thole beir
absolutely and unavoidably necess"q" vs°
the time of the Union the window re% w 35
rrsr
Is. to 3s: for each window, whereas now it„
from 4s. to 14s. ; all the other taxes bad bee'i;lioa
creased, sonic of them even, in a larger Ilr°l“loiitei
wise, but neces
—the tax on wine for instance. The tax 01.0,0
now, compared with what it was at ihe "o{o
the Union, was increased in the proportiond „eh
to two, and so far from its being alte"it`i tbet
an increase to the Revenue, the fact %ca",,): o.lo'
Revenne from wine now, as compared "11.0,ed
1
what it, had been at the Union, had dinititircolls,e
the proportion of one to two. Tl:e, 11',"'
quence of the immense increase of taxau°l-iders'n,
land had been to encourage Irish laud" wet'
become absentees. The people of 1"I'"Inei 11,6
fully entitled to the remission of this taxi
hoped the House would be convinced lhat''ee
and good faith, and, he would add, stelae
of yi
quire(' them to accede to the propos ith°ll
Hon. Friend.
eef
Mr. PEEL ' explained. fole ,
Sir N. COLTHURST spoke strongly in 3 seatethe elf
the repeal of the Tax. He confirmed
tent of the Right Hon. Baronet as (0 tr tCI
of closing up windows baring been in -°
increase the contagions fever. g" tl!
Sir F. FLOOD thought this measure, 7.elslij
the lives of thousands of the people °` "irerisee
and the honour of Parliament. He was vi"
that the motion for a Committee to ing`,.l.rell ti
the subject was resisted, especially 'lfte•
altirneitellec
the Chancellor of the Exchequer bad
He must call this a mortal tax, 1.4911;13e000
that it occasioned the death of at le3. most 'l;5
sons in the capital 'of Ireland. It wi39,; -that
lancholy case. If fact, it might be sa"„ce 1r„," -
Tax, by occasioning windows to be e,i (
I-ic ra
had converted the houses into graves. ca, (P-§
tained that Parliament was pledged" all
'8 rt
Tax to continue only during the we': ,ter
glad that the Chancellor of the Excne"i l
now Chancellof of the Exchequer' for Ire'aluid
more. humanity anti more knowledge cQeref°l4ll
rest in the breast of any man. It was, tiP 1111,Alif
with much confidence he appealed to t`tre,, Fie
Hon. Gentleman on the subject of tills tfa
least be hoped, that instead of One-4°"'„-
Chancellor of the EXchequer would agree (-
ofie-half. *ch 11$f
Mr. GRATTAN said, that the Parrs --I),:citY
been laid upon the table skewed the ece's-rfeel.;
seceding to the motion of his Hon• Frien
ldt.l at (1.
*ere Papers on the table which slievvet'e-nj 00";
pfoduce of the tax had fallen off 'front 3.-/ it
to 300,0001. There were also Parr' -6,11:d
sheAred the number of those capable ot
tax had diminished. As to what had he;9 elee
respecting the Parliament departing trout 00
gageMent (he did not speak 'it in an accut/t
sense), that was a question on wiiieh the 00etif
mittee might decide. The case of 6°Yertsef°f
issuing orders, which in effect repealed an reielec
the Legislature, was of itself sufficient °e( tb
an inquiry necessary. It had been said II eto
Q`
Petitions all prayed for te total repeal of
but did it therefore follow that the "11l

foot!
te•
Ise Stditees
t Cu
he to
r°

ed
ree
1611
Ire Isee
Orr:0'0
(lre 1/
11 tj
ri a a,
d
belie
f.
000
vogt
ibst
ie
e f°tijif
1011 s§
fi :(of
ter
1 „1!1°0
al i
id 0
:°I" for"
here ;Ail
9 'll
irt h,
to re

lid) jot
sitY f
es woo
di°
tbstno
so,o'
orbileis
Vioa
ccn °;ir'
9 rife
.c" l e011';
e met)
ei
Act ief
c o'
0 r tbd
tb6cto ;
lie :AO