The Sun.
London, England, 1829-03-25 00:00:00

COAL TRADE.

The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said he was anxi-
ous to occupy a few moments of their Lordships' time, and
should not interrupt the business of the House, for nobody
could be more anxious than he was to have the Catholic
Question settled, but he was desirous to ask a question in
which he was personally interested, and which might
shortly interfere with the commercial interests of the
country. Nis Noble Friend was last year pleased to
pay great attention to the coal trade, and he (Lord London-
derry) looked forward most anxioutdy to the fulfilment of
the promise :;iven last rear, that he would institute a Com-
mittee to inquire into the circurnetancts connecaal with the
coal tradr. The object he had in view this evening wis
to ..sk. whether, after this great question had baen dis-
p of, such a Committer would he i,stituted for the
purpose of relieving the coal trade from the tax ttion
under it ha% so long lab oir.al. If the p; ice of
c .als were reducci, it would affect not merely the in-
terests of coal-o,aai,rs, but also those of a mu. it
r class—the consumers. The present amount of the
taxes oa coals in our;:it to London was a matter which
slaaild interest every one of their Lordships. One f,ct
worthd be sufficient to show the enormous amount of t .xes
and other charges to which that article was subjected in
London. At the Tyne, coal was delivered front the coal-
owners at 18s. per chaldron. To this were added the
charge of freight to London, amounting to 10s. per chat-
dron. Thus making the price at its arrival in the river
about 28s. ; but every one of their Lordships knew that
they could not purchase a chaldron of coals for less than
505., so that 225. were added in consequence of the various
duties and imposts to which coal was subjected. This was
one reason why he felt it necessary to call their Lordships'
attention to the subject. In the Bill to which he alluded
as being now before the other House, the city of London
were endeavouring to have a clause to make permanent a
former Act imposing a duty, but which Act would expire
in the year 1837. There was one duty of 6d. per chal-
dron, and another of 4d., which went to what was called
the " Orphans' Fund ;" but that was charged with the
payment of a certain sum. It was strange that a measure
of this kind should be smuggled through in a clause of a
private Bill. It was a manseuvre which should not he
tolerated. He was astonished that the thing should be
allowed to go on—as if the Government were afraid of the
city of Loudon. This clause was introduced in the Bill
for making the approaches to the new
..London-bridge.--
Now he would say that if this was to be considered as a
great public or national work, let it be paid for out of the
public revenue : or if there was to be a tax levied for the
purpose, why not lay it on wine, or other articles of large
consumption in London ? Coal was not a luxury. It
was an article of necessary consumption—of the greatest
necessity too. Why, then, should coals alone be made to
bear this burden. He had already shown their Lordships
that the various duties and imposts to which coals were
subjected in London, had nearly doubled the price at
which they were brought into London; so far their Lord.
ships and the public in and round the metropolis were inte-
rested in the question. He himself, as he had stated, was
personally interested ; but he spoke not from a view to that
interest alone, but from a feeling that the coal-trade and
the shipping interest connected with it were at the present
moment in a state of depression, and that much of that
was owing to the heavy duties which were imposed on
coals brought to London. He knew that a great cry had
been raised against what was called the monopoly in the
coal trade, from agreements amongst the chief coal-owners
to keep up the price ; and that to that was to be attributed
the high prices ; but he challenged the proof of that in the
Committee. The high prices, he repeated, were produced
by the present heavy duties; and if these were removed,
coal could be obtained in London at a much cheaper rate.
With respect to the question of monopoly, he could assure
their Lordships that the coal-owners were extremely desi-
rous that that subject should also form part of the inquiry.
It would, he had no doubt, be made evident that the price of
coal did not depend on the fact whether the article was in
the hands of the few or the many, for there was no regu-
lation amongst the principal coal-owners this year, and yet
coals were not cheaper; and their Lordships would find
that they would not be cheaper during the year. Con-
sidering that the present system of duties was extremely
injurious to the coal trade, to owners, and consumers, he
did implore that his Noble Friend would consent to the
appointment of a Committee, with a view of considering
the whole subject.

The Duke of WELLINGTON—I can assure my Noble
Friend I do not forget the kindness with which I was
treated in the north of England, nor do 'forget the result
of the inquiries I made while there with respect to the coal
trade---inquiries which led me, though not at that time
in office, to be astonished that the prices of this commo-
dity should be so high in the city of London, considering
what they were at the pit's mouth. It is true that in the
course of various considerations on this subject during the
last Session of Parliament, and particularly upon
ms.e,
.frc:t.,picit,o,u:ari
get Bill.ii(i;:aca,oe.ti
which referred to the coal meters of the county of Sur-
rey, I did state that I should inquire into the subject,
during the recess, and that I should have no objection to
a committee of this House being appointed to investigate
the subject in the course of this session of Parliament; ac-
cordingly, I now state that I have no objection to enter
into the inquiry. I must say, however, that the re-
sult of the contemplated inquiries I have already
made, tends to prove that the duty imposed by Govern-
ment is not that which occasions the extreme expence of
coals in this metropolis, an expence which is larger than
even that which has been stated by my Noble Friend. When
I was in Durham, I understood the difference to be as
between 1 1 s. and 41s, per chaldron when on board the
ship in the river, instead of 16s. and 365. as he stated ;
and the price to the purchaser was between 50s. and
60s. Now, if your Lordships are informed eiat
the duty imposed by Government is only 68. upon this
aliount—that the dn'y iiiiposed by the city of Len'ioti is
only 4d. and 61.,—when your Lordships recollect also
that the Chancellor of tie Exchequer. a few y rare ego,
took off nalf the duty imposed by re fuoing it io Ss. and That
that made no ‘ I 1 ire c t• II c ,• in the price to the ietrehaser, it i•
dear that there must be smile abuse existing somewhere in
his dale which ove ieioes the exteerai ly high price to the
[.l,:.up.,l.anitdeea-,rin.:iy:iiiti:ett.p:ru:ti7li:ti.:(i.:looniBtnittzv;p.t'illis:oea'tie'v:te,:ullrl.late.Cyllrti,leiitilr;ildytp:l,'tl),:imi:t.tetilailsdenoeixorinvih:lib:,),ol,f,e;::a'sitsblifa.:setatn:if,ornft,rvihl
the dety cannot be levied at the place of e.xport, but
at the place of import. The. Ni.ble Duke observed, that with
respect to the duties imposed by the city of Lcriclon, and
objected to by the Noble Marquis, it was al solutely ne-
cessary that those duties should be continued, for the purpose
of making the improvements and communications which the
immense transactions of the port of London required ;
and which would be particularly necessary after the com-
petition of the new London bridge. Should the Hon.
Duke be appointed one of the Members of the Committee,
he would render every assistance in his power to investi-
gate the matter throughout.
Lord DURHAM felt astonished that 40,0001. should

The Noble Lord also presented several petition; from
some of the same places against the Sub-letting and Vestry
Acts.
The Bishop of BATH and WELLS rose to present the
petition of which lie had given notice, signed by between
600 and 700 of the under-graduates of the University of
Cambridge. They prayed their Lordships to preserie in-
violate the liberties and altars of the country. The pe.
tition arose out of the observations which had been made
elsewhere, that the feelings of the young men of education
in the country were in favour of concession to the Catho-
lics, and, wishing to wipe off this Stigma from themselves,
the petitioners felt themselves called upon to address their
Lordship; on the occasion. When the petition was first
intrusted to his care, he felt some distrust, thinking that
such a petition might be against the discipline of the Uni-
versity; hitt, on consulting some of his Learned Friends
connected with that University, lie learned that there was
no law, rule, or regulation, which opposed the signing of
such a petition by under-graduates. It was scarcely ne-
cessary for him to add, that he fully concurred in its prayer.
Few petitions which came before their Lordships had
stronger claims on their attention ; for though he feared
that some petiticris had come before their Lordships origi-
nating in sordid motives and views of self.s,4vancenient, he
was certain that no imputation of the kind conic: rest 'upon
the petitioners. Th-y were men who had been ao.;!Tied
in the pursuit of their studies—.
" ----- inter !jives academi,"--..
many of them being more accustomed to the reading the
works of Protestant divines, and therefore more impressed
with the principles of the Reformation ; and they there-
fore earnestly prayed that their Lordships might not con-
sent to a measure which they believed would be stibver-,
sive of the Constitution. The Right Rev. Prelate Stitt.
eluded by moving that the petition be read at length.
The petition having been read—

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE expressed a hope, that
in the few observations whirls he intended to offer to their
Lordships, nothing would fall from him which could be
supposed to exhibit any want of respect to the under-
graduates of Cambridge. In the character of an under-
gradu .te of that University, he had spent some of the hap-
piest hours of his life: but it had never occurred to him
during that period to lay his political sentiments before
their Lordships; nor was he sure, had he been so disposed,
that he would have found a Right Rev. Prelate willing to
be the medium of their communication to the House.—
Without refetence to the side from whence the petition
came, he thought it highly desirable that no petition on
such a subject should proceed from the under-graduates
of the University. Four or five years ago, when the Uni..
versify of Cambridge came to a decision upon the Catholic
question (the opposite to that at which they had recently
arrived), some of the under-graduates expressed to him a
wish to sign a petition in favour of emancipation, but he
then expressed the same opinion that he did now,—namely,
that it was desirable they should do no such thing ; and
accordingly it was not done. He understood, that in the
University of Oxford the under-graduates had drawn up
two petitions, one for and the other against emancipation ;
but the proctors, who probably were more severe critics on
political matters than subjects of ancient history, laid their
ruthless hands on those petitions, and suppressed both.—
He understood that time authorities at Cambridge in-
tended to have acted in a similar manner with re-
gard to the petition before the House, but its supporters,
by some means or other, outstripped the vigilance of
the proctors, and it found its way into the Cambridge
coach. He believed, however, the Vice-Chancellor had
testified his entire disapprobation of the proceeding,
,and
finding a disposition existed on the part of some of the
under-graduates to sign a counter-petition, he cal'ed on
the heads of the Colleges to oppose it ; and in compliancs
with the recommendation of those learned pet sons, the
young men abandoned the project, although he understood
that so many as 250 in Trinity College alone were pre.
pared to sign the petition. He might here observe, that
the present petition was signed by only 600 persons,
whilst the whole number of under-graduates of Cambridge
amounted to 1,560. He could not perceive any thing in
the course of study pursued by these young men which
peculiarly fitted them for judging of the tenets of the
Romish Church, and he considered that it would be better
for them to pursue their studies than to be thus antici-
pating the passions of future life. Their Lordships had
already received petitions from apprentices, schoolboys,
and charity children, all of whom were, he thought, less
competent to form an opinion on the Catholic Question
than the under-graduates of the University of Cambridge,
and therefore he would not object to the present petition
being laid on the table. He hoped, however, it would
not be supposed their Lordships were sanctioning the prin-
ciple that young men who had not taken their degrees
were competent to form themselves into a tribunal for in-
structing Parliament as to the course it should pursue.
Lord KING said that the Right Rev. Prelate who pre-
sented the petition seemed to consider it one of its recom-
mendations that it proceeded from the ingenuous feelings of
youth. Now, as the ingenuous feeling would be stronger
in persons who were under-graduates of Cambridge, the
petitions of the youngest boys in public schools would on
that principle be more valuable. The Noble Lord then,
as we understood, expressed his surprise that amongst the
many appointments which the Right Rev. Prelate had en-
joyed in the course of his life, Ite had never possessed those
of Master of :Trinity College and Dean of Christ-church,
for which his opinions with respect to the education of
young men seemed eminently to qualify him.
The Bishop of LINCOLN said, that the Right Rev.
Prelate who presented the petition had reflected on the
heads of the University of Cambridge, of whom he (the
Bishop of Lincoln) was one, for not putting down a cer-
tain debating club which at present existed. He was far
from approving of the club, but at the same time he
thought it would have been right that the Right Rev: Pre-
late should have taken more pains to acquaint himself
with the reasons which had induced the heads of the Uni-
versity to tolerate its existence. He might, however, ob-
serve, that it was one thing for the under graduates to
debate in a club, by the regulations of which they were
precluded from discussing political questions which had
occurred since 1800, and another for them to send peti-
tions to Parliament. Young men were sent to the Uni-
versity for the purpose of education, and what could be
more foreign to that purpose than that they should be en-
couraged to neglect their studies and employ their time in
framing and transmitting petitions to Parliament? He,
besides, entertained considerable doubt as to whether the
under-graduates could in that character present petitions
to Parliament. The University of Cambridge was a cor-
poration consisting of the Chancellor, masters, and scho-
lars ; and whenever they addressed the Throne, or either
House of Parliament, their petitions were passed in the
senate, in which no under-graduate had a voice.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE was quite clear that it
would have been the duty of the House to have rejected
the petition, if it had purported to be that of the under-
graduates of Cambridge : but it only represented itself to
be the petition of the " under-signed under-graduates."
The Bishop of OXFORD said, that so much of the ob-
servations of his Right Rev. Brother, who presented the
petition, as referred to the University of Cambridge, had
been answered ; and, on behalf of the authorities of the
University of Oxford, he would declare, that no tolera-
tion was given by them to debating clubs in the univer-
s ty. He could not forget, however, that 20 years ago,
he helonged to a debating club in the Oxford University;
and that club had continued to exist, because, like the
Catholic Association, it had been found impossible to put
i down..—(A laugh.)—When the members of the society
were hunted out of one room, they met immediately in
another. The Noble Marquis was right in stating that
petitions on this subject had been entirely suppressed in.
t le University of Oxford, not on account of any ruthless-.
ness on the part of the officers of the University, for those
who were most active on the occsation were friendly to
emancipation, but because they considered the proceeding
improper is itself. He could state on Isis own authority,
that some of the most konourable -young men in the Uni-
versity, afterwards called oti" the proctors, mirLabanked
them for not having permitted: them- to d'o--aioAbaurd a
thing as to petition Parliament:- 'The Rightaßev/Prelate
concluded by expressing. his. Jegiit'i, tliat,-714)"""rage-


mcnt sholld be held out to the young men in the universi-
ties, to induce them to embark in discussions which must
divert their attentions from those literary pursuitsin which
it was the wish of the heals of those establishments to
train them.
The Earl of ELDON gave notice, that on Thursday
next he would present a petition from the under-graduates
of the University of Glasgow. He felt it his duty to pre •
sent petitions from any persons who were entitled to
petition Par:iament. He thought he should be able to
prove to their Lordships that young men in Scotland were
able to judge of the Catholic Question at the age of
eighteen years.
The Bishop of ROCHESTER presented a petition in
favour of Emancipation from Tunbridge-wells.
The Earl of ELDON presented 33 petitions from dif-
ferent places in England and Scotland, all praying that no
further concessions may be granted to the Cttholics.
Petitions against the Roman Catholic claims were pre-
sented hy Lord KENYON, horn the members of the Na-
ti:teal Sefton! in Lincolnshire; from the rural (lean and
clergy of a deanery in Ayrshire, and from a parish in the
county of Denbigh`; and by Lord FARNHAM from various
places in the counties of Cavan, Wexford, Monaghan,
Mericnetb, Down, Carnarvon, Wicklow, Armagh, Water-
ford, and Donoughmore. •
The Duke of WELLINGTON presented s petition from
the burgesses and other inhabitants of the town of Forfar,
in favour of the Roman Catholic claims.
_ . .

Mr. Smith presented the 15th report of the Commis-
sioners for making the roads and bridges in the Highlands
of Scotland.—AFljourned.