The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-25 00:00:00

of indecision of principle, what should hereafter determine the
course they were to pursue Were not the difficulties already
sufficiently incumbering, without calling upon them to lay down
the principles which should hereafter guide them epon this ques-
tion? then, let them deal with the evils as they at pre-
sent found them, and not state the principles to the people of
England which they might hereafter find it necessary to withdraw
from. If this measure were granted, the peace and satisfaction
that would be certain to follow it in Ireland, would more than
repay this country for a much greater conca sion.—( Hear. )
He had no apprehension that it would not pass, for the real:and
only feeling of hostility against it as a Roman Catholic mea-
sure was exhibited only by the Protestant Dissenters. But,
he would ask, was it not likely that other feelings
of hostility would be raised to it, if this
motion were persevered in? He feared that Hon. Members
on his side of the House were not sufficiently sensible of the
apprehension that such was likely to occur. He did not en-
tertain those conscientious objections to the grant that others
did; on the contrary, he did think, as a Protestant, that it
would
be for the advantage of the Protestant Church to have
its present temporalities reconsidered, and those scandals—(he
did not say it offensively)—of which so much bad been said of
it, removed.—( Hear, hear.) He did believe it would be a
great blessing to Ireland if the Government endowed the Ro-
man Catholic Church, provided it was not done in such a way
as to make either the people or the clergy feel that that grant
had placed them either in a degraded or servile position.—
( Hear, hear.) He believed that this grant would not only be
a blessing to Ireland, but an act of policy by this country, and
one worthy of the cause of Christianity.—( Hear, hear.) He
was well aware that there were very many Protestants who
were firm supporters of their religion, but were ready to admit
that the Establishment had its abuses, and that they ought to
be removed; yet he doubted very much if the taking away of
the funds of one establishment to support another would be
likely to give satisfaction.—(Hear, hear.) One thing was
quite clear, and that was, that the English as well as the Irish
people felt deeply upon this question ; and, therefore, he would
say, that if the Government could give this boon to Ireland
without giving dissatisfaction to England, ho would be
prepared to support it.—( Cheers. )
Mr. BERNAL said he regretted that he felt himself called
upon to oppose the views of his Right Hon. Friend who had
just sat down, and in doing so he should do him the justice to
say that he had expressed his sentiments upon this question,
that evening, in that bold, upright, and comprehensive manner,
that did him honour, and showed that he was incapable of utter.
ing any sentiment that he did not feel the truth and justice of
in his heart.—(Hear, hear.) But the reasons alleged and the
arguments used by his Right Hon. Friend, for the vote he in-
tended to give, were not satisfactory to him, nor were they
such as would deter him (Mr. Bernal) from giving his support
to his Hon. Friend Mr. Ward's motion. He would not enter
upon any long argument, in addition to those adduced by his
Hon. Friend, in support of his motion ; but he would endeavour
to confine himself as much as passible to the merits
of the motion itself.—( Hear, Hear.) His Honourable
Friend had said that the present Parliament should
not do any act by which to fetter the acts of future legislation ;
but how did he propose to remove the difficulty ? Did the
Hon. Member suppose that the proposition of the Right Hon._
Baronet was such a one as could not be disturbed hereafter ?
He (Mr. Bernal) would contend for it, that there were inhe-
rent difficulties in the way of legislating effectively upon this
subject, which would always embarrass it.—( Hear, hear.)
His Right Hon. Friend had said that in legislating upon this
Euestion, regard should be had to the opinions of the people of
ngland; but, at the same time, it should not be forgotten
that they should also legislate conscientiously, and in such a
manner as they conceived they were bound as legislators to do.
—( Hear, hear.) He was not one of those who had bound him-
self to that shadow of a party, or that ghost of a section—
( Laughter)—called the Irish Church party.--( Hear, hear. )
But, at the same time, he never would be one to lend himself
to what was called the destruction of the Irish Church.—
( Hear, hear.) But when he had heard Hon. Members in that
House declare, in the course of this debate, that at the time
of the Union a bond was entered into, by which the
Irish Church Establishment was to be held hence-
forth inviolable, he would ask what had they not
already them in regard td that establishment?—(Cries of
" Hear, hear.") Had they not since considerably narrowed the
whole of the Ecclesiastical Establishment in Ireland?—( Hear,
hear.) Had they not dealt summarily with the tithe question ?
—( near, hear.) If so, then, he would say, they slsould now,
once and for ever, abandon this fanciful condition.—(Cheers. )
He would say, if they meant to act in this same way for the
future, there was nothing in the history of the past to render
the pursuit of such a course inconsistent.—(Hear, hear.) He
had heard the Hon. Member for Newcastle declare that he was
inviolably attached to the Church Establishment, both from
principle and ss a matter of State policy. He (Mr. Bernal)
regretted that the lion. Member was not in his place, or he
would be ready to answer him.—( Hear, hear.) He had also
heard other Hen. Members make use of language in reference
to this, question, that was not very creditable.—( Hear, hear.)
He had heard of such expressions as the " No Popery" cry,
and Popish domination and ascendancy, and that the
Catholics were treasonable subjects to the Queen and
Constitution ; but he would say he held such language in the
greatest detestation, and he repudiated it.—( Cheers.) Ten
years ago he heard similar language used, when the Houses of
Parliament were burnt, and therefore he would hold no alli-
ance with such persons, as it would be impossible for such to
conduct the discussions of that House in that calmness of tone
and temper by which they should be regulated.—( Hear, hear,
and cheers.) He did not think the motion of the Hon. Mem-
ber for Sheffield would remove the difficulty that lay in the
way of this questi n ; bur it would tend to soften it doen ;
but the moment the present Government put forward this grant
in the shape of a Bill, then indeed it became an endowment of
the College of Maynooth.—( Heir, hear.) He had seen by
some of the papers that certain persons supported this measure
because it would have the effect, they said, of increasing
Protestantism in Ireland if once the priests were well educated.
—( Laughter.) He would like to know, from the Right lion.
Baronet (Sir R. Peel), why, if this measure had been deemed
so necessary for Ireland, it hod not been granted ten years
ago? The Right lion. Baronet had stated that he made the
concession because he feared war was impending; and that, he
(Mr. Bernal) should say, was, at the very least, an indiscreet
speech, for th, night lion. Baronet had no right to prftpose
the mea eat All, if he did not intend it as a beneficial measure.
This question nail been reiterated in the ears of the House
risque ad nauseutu, and it would be repeated continually even
if the Speaker should live to the age of 3lethwelah.—( Loud
laughter.) Ile (Mr. Bernal) contended that the state of
things at present existing in Ireland could not continue. If
they wished to maintain it, they mix,t do so by means of brute
force, and not be argument. lie thought it was possible for
two establishments to exist together in Ireland, but not on the
same ground as they did at present. In parts of Rhenish
Germany the Protestants and Catholics lived together
in the utmost harmony. In parts of Switzerland
axd Germany, it was a frequent thing fur the Pro-
testants to u'e the temple of worship in the morning,
and the Catholics in the evening_ It had been said the Catho-
lics of Ireland wished for the destruction of the Established
Chure!v in Ireland. He believed that no sich wish existed.
He believed that, many of the Catholic Members of that House
would not desire to see the Established Church in Ireland
broken up. lie (Mr. Bernal) would support the measure
conscientiously, and fearless of the result. He believed it would
be a beneficial measure, and therefore nothing should deter him
frotyt supporting it. .

Captain GLADSTONE said he wished to speak with all
due respect of those gentlemen who, from the place he repre-
sented, had petitioned the House against this grant He be-
lieved them to be actuated by conscientious motive;; but,
having made up his mind to support the grant to Mai no ith,
he could not support the prayer of those individuals. He was
not ashamed to confess that he had felt consi ferable difficulty
in coming to a conclusion on this question. Ile did not mean
to say so far as regarded the mere question of an increase of
the grant to Maynooth, for as to the necessity of that he had
made up his mind; and he thought that the present measure
ought not to be considered in that light alone. His convic-
tion was, that the increased grant was absolutely necessary.
He had himself visited Maynooth, and he could confirm the
statement which had been made by his Right Hon. Friend at
the head of the Government, that it was in a disgraceful state,
and resembled a deserted barrack more than anything else.
They had heard the declarations of many who had been cm-
nected with this institution that it was not commodious.
He believed that the present state of Maynooth was disgraceful
and not creditable to its connection with the State, and that
some change ought to take place. As far as regarded the reli-
gious part of this question, he would say that he had the
strongest feeling Lir the Protestant religion, and he had, he
trusted, an equ d respect for the religion of his Roman Catholic
fellow-countrymen. There were those who objected to this
grant, believing it to be dangerous to the Church, and to the
rause of Protestantism. He confessed that he could not bring
himself to believe that this would be the case. If the
effect of this mcasure should be to give a more liberal
education to those who were hereafter to become the priests
of Ireland—if it were to give an increase of comfort to
them during their stay at Mayneoth, he believed that it would
be beneficial to the country, and when those individuals left
the College of 31a)neoth,
,they would not forget the source
from which they had obtained such education and such com-
forts. It was generally known, that the feelings with which
the students at Maynooth left that College were not the most
favourable to the general peace and welfare of the country.
During his visit to the Witte of Maynooth—and here he
wished to bear his testimony to the courtesy and kindness
evinced by the Rev. President of that institution—during his visit
to that College he put this question to the President, "Suppose
a large and more liberal endowment were made to the College
of Maynooth, do you think the effect of it would be to in-
duce the higher classes of the Roman Catholics to send their
sons there for the purpose of becoming priests?" and the an-
swer to that question had surprised him. The answer was,
" The higher classes do not exist"—he meant of course that
they did not exist in sufficient numbers to fill up the priesthood
of Ireland. He (Captain Gladstone) supported the grant, be-
cause he thought it would be beneficial to I. eland ; but he
felt perfectly at liberty hereafter to vote against any endow-
ment. lie thought the measure had been brought forward at a
proper time, and in a proper spirit. He did not believe it had
been brought forward through fear, but that it had been pro-
posed simply to benefit Ireland. But while he said this he
would contend for the supremacy of the Protestant Church
in Ireland. He conceived that a prescription of 300 years was
enough to establish that supremacy, and should it ever be
attacked it would be !Mind that the motto of its supporters
was still no surreed-r.

Lord HOWICK said he agreed to a great extent in what
had fallen from his Right Hon. Friend the Member fur Ports-
mouth (Mr. Baring). He certainly did not concur with him
in his concluding observation, but he did agree with him that
the motion of his Hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield was
not submitted to the House in a convenient form, or on a con-
venient occasion.—( Hear, hear.) He thought the occasion
inconvenient, because undoubtedly it interfered with the pro-
gress of a Bill, to which he, for one, was most anxious to give
the best support he was able. Ile thought it more inconve-
nient, because, while the question which his Hon. Friend
wished to raise by his motion was the great and important ques-
tion whether the whole of the arrangements of the Irish Church
ought to be remodelled or not, he was of opinion that that
question was badly raised upon the appropriation of
so comparatively small a sum as 26,000/. That
sum was far too small a practical proposition to bring forward
as a test of so great a principle, but, at the same time, as it
seemed to be the wish of Gentlemen on both sides of the
tend
sees
tt a that this question should be considered as clearly in-
decide the point of whether they were to maintain,
unaltered, as at present appropriated, the property of the Esta-
blished Church of Ireland
w or whether some arrangement was
to be considered—as it
that the division upon it(.lvrasi°tlO was
be
the feeling on both sides of the
to be so considered, and
House, that this great question
unequal
taken as the test of their
vfailetwasautphoenprite,sehaetwareaslailalinvgaryso to consider it. Though he
wttlieitask of address-
ing
isinsutobjpeacbt,liyaelti,geas,
hitete onee upon which,
e Househiseunpt
roanntche
everthsienc
in-
terest, upon which he entertained opinions so strong,e deepwhichan
every
year's experience only served to strengthen more; d could not allow this debate to come to a close withouete more,
he
that opinion however inadequate he might be to do sox. expressing
garded the question of the Irish Church in the same lightere-
his Right Hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh(Mur.
Macaulay.) In his unanswerable speech upon the subject
last night, be entirely, concurred. He alwaye regarded the
maintenance of the Irish Church Upon- Its' present 'footing as
contrary to every principle of justice and of policy.—( Hear,
hear.) He believed in his conscience that the maintenance
of that Church had been the great obstacle to the spread of
the Protestant religion in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) He was
so persuaded of the troth of the great principles of reli-
gion,
that he firmly believed if they were. given fair play—if
they were not weighed down by the Rustle° of that system

with whieh they were united, they must in the course of three
centuries have taken root and flourished on the soil of Ireland as
they had done in other countries.—( Hear.) He believed
that the Irish Church was the source of that misgovernment
and oppression under which Ireland had, for three centuries
suffered.—( Hear, hear.) That was the view which he took
of the subject, and it was one which he never concealed.
When he was in the Government, and was a party to the
appropriation clause, he never disguised the fact, that the
arguments on which he supported that proposition were argu-
ments, if pushed to their legitimate conclusion, would have car-
ried him farther than the clause then proposed.--( Hear. )
He never disguised that such was the effect of those princi-
ples, and if ho contended for a proposition that fell far
short of them, he did so only because he believed that at
that time the Roman Catholics of Ireland were prepared to
accept far less than in justice they were entitled
to demand.—(Hear, hear.) In the year 1838, when they
consented to pass the Tithe Bill without the appropriation
clause, he did not conceal the fact that he acquiesced in that de-
termination of the Government to which he then belonged, not
because healtered his opinion of the justice of that clause, but
because he felt that the time at which such a compromise might
be accepted had gone by. The Right Hon. Baronet opposite
might remember that that, and that only, was the ground on
which he consented to be a party to the bringing forward of the
Tithe Bill, without the appropriation clause. And he did not
value that clause so much for its intrinsic value as for being a
tender of part of the just claims of the Roman Catholics ; and,
when originally proposed, the Catholics were willing to accept
it as a concession, not so much to their interests as to
their feelings and their sense of honour, which were
wounded by the existing arrangements. But in 1838
it was obvious to him, from the protracted contests on
the subject of the appropriation clause, that the time
must come when compromise being no longer accept-
able, a larger and more difficult question must come under
discussion. He did not raise the question then, because those
most interested in it did not seem to think it an occasion on
which it could be advantageously brought forward. But he
foresaw that the question would be brought forward; and he
never concealed, being then in office, his views on a matter in
which he felt that justice required it should be determined.
He referred to those things merely to show that when the Right
Hon. Baronet opposite (Sir J. Graham) spoke last night of
Government on his side of the House being prepared to go
farther now than formerly, he did not do them justice, at least
he did not do it to him (Lord Howick ). He would bear him
(Lord Howick) witness that his opinions on this subject had
been frankly avowed ; and that he supported those opinions to
the utmost of his power.—(Hear, hear.) After having be-
fore addressed the House on the subject now before it, and
after the speech of his Right Hon. Friend, the Member for
Edinburgh, he should not attempt now to point out all the
defects of the existing arrangements of the Irish Church.
He wished rather to go at once to the practical
question as to how the anomaly and injustice of
those arrangements were to be met. He had
no hesitation in stating his opinion on that point.
More than two years ago he stated that the time was gone by
when a compromise would be of use. He firmly believed that
if they were contented to accept; the appropriation clause of
1835, they might, for their time at least, maintain without
serious inconvenience the Protestant Established Church of
Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) But they triumphed in their resist-
ance to that compromise, and the consequence was that they
now brought about a state of things, in which he thought a
compromise was no longer practicable. He believed that they
must now do full justice to the people of Ireland.—(Cheers. )
It was no use any longer to palter with the question. For him-
self, he would never again be a party to an incomplete and in-
adequate measure of reform—he would never disturb the
country by proposing a measure which did not go to the
root of the evil.—(Hear, hear.) When he said " the
root of the evil," what be meant was, that they
must deal on equal terms with Catholics and Protestants.—
( Cheers.) There must be no distinction—no violent ast t op-
tion of correctness of doctrine and prior claims to the regard of
the State on the part of the Protestants.—( Hear, hear, and
cheers.) Catholic and Protestant interests must in his opinion
be considered and dealt with alike.—( Cheers.) That was not
the time for discussing the proper mode of doing so, but he
would tell them. because he wished to have no concealment
on the subject, what, in the present state of his
ieformation, appeared to him to be the best mode
in which the subject should be dealt with. In the
first place, he would save all existing interests.—( Hear,
hear.) He would not in any way interfere with those who
now enjoyed incomes from the Irish Church revenues—
( Hear, heard—and, at present, he thought they were bound
to draw on the Consolidated Fund of this country for the sup-
port of the Roman Catholic Church. Under any other circum-
stances this might be injustice, but he had the strongest opi-
nion that Ireland herself ought to provide for the religions in-
struction of the Irish people, as England provided for the in.
struction of the English people, and Scotland provided
for the instruction of the Scotch 'people.—( Hear, hear.)
As a permanent arrangement, he held that it would
be what justice required, and they had no right to call on the
English people, or on the Scottish people, to contribute to the
religious instruction of the people of Ireland.—( Hear, hear. )
But as a temporary arrangement the case in his opinion was
different—he thought it was the fault of the English themselves
that Ireland was not in a situation at once to provide for the
religious instruction of the Homan Catholics from the Church
property of Ireland. It was the prejudices prevailing in this
country which prevented a measure from being adopted by
which a considerable fund would be already at their disposal.
—( Hear, hear.) If the prejudices of the English and Scotch
p-ople had not interposed, the appropriation clause
would have been carried in 1835 ; and not only
that, but if these prejudices had not interfered—if
they had been able to deal with the application of the pro-
perty of the Irish Church as reason and common sense dic-
tated—his opinion was, that they would not be compelled to
fritter away and waste that property as they had been.---( Hear,
hear.) They scandalously wasted that property—first, by
the arrangements of 1,-33, with refererce to bishops' lands.
If tl.e property of the Irish Church had not been devoted to
unporular purposes—if it had not been applied to objects
which the general sense of the people of Ireland was against,
his opinion was that they could not have so wasted that pro-
petty—that if the property of the Irish Church was devoted
to the itistru tion of the great body of the people,
neither Parliament no: the people of Ireland themselves
would have consented to the arrangements made with regard
to the bishops' lands.—( Hear, hear.) In like manner it was
an unjust application of the revenues of the Irish Church which
compelled them in 1833 to convent to a sacrifice of 9.5 per
cent. of that property. As, therefore, that mistake was
forced on Parliament by the prejudices—he admitted tl e honest
prejudices—of the people of England and Scotland. the cause
of that mistake might fairly fall on those who committed it;
and the peop'e of England and Scotland ought to pay for a
time a' provision for the Catholic Church ; but ultimately, he
said, that that provision ought to be supplied by Ireland her-
self. If he bad to deal with the subject, be would say,
let the whole property of the Irish Church be vested
in the hands of commissioners. Let them pay the incomes
of existing incumbents, and as those interests fell in, the first
charge on the funds would be to make due provision for the
Catholic clergy—he said the first charge, because he knew
that on his side of the House, as well as on the other, it had
been the custom to say, that the surplus ought to go to the
Roman Catholics. He repudiated that notion as altogether
unjust, and said that the Catholics had, in every point of view,
the first claim on the funds. They were tl.e majority—they
were the poorest, and the property was originally set apart
for the maintenance of their Church. Upon another ground
they had also a just claim. He thought it was for the national
interest that the Roman Catholic clergy should be provided
for, precisely as he thought it for the interest of England that
the clergy of England should have an independent provision,
without trusting to the contributions of their flocks.—(Hear,
hear.) He thought it of the most essential importance that the
clergy of the great body of the Irish people should have in.
comes independent of the caprice of those whom they taught.
He was moat distinctly opposed to what was called the voluntary
principle. He was utterly unable to understand the views of
those who adopted that policy. Gentlemen upon both sides of
the House agreed that the State ought to interfere in support
of the education of the people, and that it ought not to be
trusted merely to the voluntary efforts of individuals. Large
grants were made for education in England, in Ireland, and in
Scotland ; and he regretted that the unfortunate sectarian
feelings which prevailed between Churchmen and Dissenters
prevented them from carrying out as far as they might the be-
nefits of education, the means of which the State was willing to
provide. If education, then, ought not to be trusted to the
voluntary efforts of individuals, the case was much
stronger against leaving the religious education
of the people to the support of voluntary contributions of indi-
viduals. Why, those who wet e the least sensible of the wants
of religion, were the very persons to whom the advantages of
religion were of the most importance, and they were the per..
sons who would be the least inclined to contribute to its sup-
port.—(" Hear, hear," from the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer.) He was glad to hear the Right Hon. Gentleman cheer
that. If the Hon. Gentleman concurred with him its that
feding— if they felt the necessity of providing religious in-
struction for the people, let him (Lord Hoessaior.rck;iNolarasa
shape
in which
inks
them in what shape it ought to be provided ? Was it
th esh a e
it
in
wouldwhichbe
ita e
ewpotualbdi e
?b_ Hear,(
e useless,
it for practical purposes they meant to provide it? If so, they
ought to supply that religious education in a form in which it
would be most acceptable to the people of Ireland.—( Hear. )
If they thought that religious education was of such im-
portance, how could they justify themselves in not affording it
in a manner in which it would be most acceptable? He was so
persuaded of the necessity of such a proposition, that he
was ready to find means for it from any source—
he was ready to take the money, in the first in-
stance, from the Consolidathl Fund, or from any other fund,
for he felt that with regard to the Catholic population of Ire-
land, it was absolutely necessary to provide for the religious
instruction of that country. Why should they compel the
peasantry of the most destitute and worst taught country in
the world to find the funds for the payment of the religious in-
struction they received, when there was a magnificent national
endowment which he said was theirs by right ? To do that
was the most flagrant violation of justice which England
had ever been guilty of.—( Hear, hear.) But if they provided
in the first instance for the Catholics, he was
perfectly willing also to provide for the 'Protestants.
He was quite willing to meet the assertion, that the Protestant
Church was inadequate to its purposes, upon higher and nobler
grounds than any that had been alleged. He thought that the
property of Ireland should be taxed for the purposes of this
Bill, in the amount in which it was relieved in 1835.—( Hear,
hear.) He thought that there might be obtained a fund which
would meet all the exigencies of the case which had been so
strongly put forward, and he concurred with those who had
given it its due prominence. But he would ask the Right
Hon. Gentleman opposite, was he really serious ?—(Cheers.)
Did he really mean to say, that if the Bill were frankly and
faithfully proposed to the House, as a measure to satisfy the
Trish people, it would be refused?--(Cheers.)
Sir R. PEEL—No.—(Cheers.)
Lord HOWICK agreed with the Right Hon. Baronet. He
was sure that nothing which might equalise the position of re-
ligions in Ireland would be rejected by the House.—(Cheers.)
He thought that all religions in Ireland should be placed upOn
an equality, and he was sure that the people of Ireland would
never be contented with less.—(Cheers.) They had been told
that a message of conciliation had been sent to Ireland. What
was the tenor of that message ?—( Cheers.) In weighing the
value of that offer, let us consider what it was worth.—( Hear,
hear.) Let us only consider what are the real facts of the
case. Let us consider that the poorest people in the world
were obliged to support the richest priesthood, who preached
doctrines—when they preached at all—quite opposite to the
opinions, often hurtful to the feeiings, of those who supported
them.—(Hear, hear.) The security and safety of the
Established Church had always been made the pretext of
oppression to Ireland.—(Cheers.) Was it any wonder that
animosities should arise? Would we, as Englishmen, say that
there should he sustained in this country by all the powers of
themaintained
naod
_inot_n.tpaaet ;epernldi. ett
majorities
by
symaoemnfndovjoobtr oppositeeyi
majorities
nse lola thefnbotr rti rights of the constitution,
o
they eota intended h
a Catholic ehurch, which the people abhorred, and which was
a
nsH Heoeas partor wouldo sfoofkr
wtthabreed empire,uHnolue unless
ial...tottocog?ni
farther
taheekr
tit hiosnq
tuheisst ipoanr.t
of the
could
questionß i Right
the erect oriii
The Governmenre, clieripoirethgeaplrrsythoifosiria
culties and embarrassments 0.4W4 Hon. Baronet to consider what had been
from the oppoliarsititoinsi
principles to those whicelrtsh
doubt, had felt themselves in great diffi-
culties
whetnbeouHtomooaffes.
despise himself if
Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary
had said that he would d •
that some expression of his was hasty he did not acknowledge
(Lord Howick) would ask, was it notairl*tur 4l:advised. But he
Quo
to
t:Dhffit
repots.hee(iceprCea.prhrte:er
rsree shnn.
The