The Sun.
London, England, 1816-05-14 00:00:00

SHOPLIFTING.

Lord HoLLANn gave .notice, that he would on
kiiday !nom the second reading of the Shoplift-
ing Bill.
Earl STANHOPE said, that ,it trenched on' the
Trial by Jury, and proposed that the Lords be
tammoned for Friday, which was. ordered.

INTFAIFERENCE OF THE MILITARY.
!The Earl of glum said, it was with great pain:
.lie felt it necessary again to trouble the tiouse
NVith regard to the improper interference of the
^Military. A circumstance, however, had again
happened to him, which rendered it a public duty
on his pm to bring the subject before their Lord-
bliips. This (ray, on his attempting to enter Pall-
Mall, be was stopped by the soldiery, Who insist-
ed that he should not go along that street ; and
on his calling for a constable; be was informed by
theta there werono constables there, lie inquired
for the Officer of the Guard, and was told he was
Carlton-House. He did not attempt after this
to proceed up fall-Mall, but went along the Hay-
mat liet and other streets. He was not at the
time aware of an m m
y circustanee that could in the
slightest degree call for any military parade ; he
lied since learned that the Lord Mayor and Cor-
poration of London went up with an Address ; but
was this an occasion that could call for a display
of troopv, the blocking up of streets, and the in-
terruption of peaceable citizens on the King's
highway ? He felt it to be impossible for him to
pass over this second instance of military interfer-
ence tv:thout subordioation to the Gird Power ;,
aod.he therefore moved for a Copy of the Order
wider w which the Military were authorized to act
this day in 14all-Mall anti its vicinity.

LortiNiscomit -Stnmour,n trusted tike house
nuin not, under the citctulistitudts of the case,

consider this motion necessary. Ile had, on'a
former -occasion, when this subject was before
the [louse, stated that he would take care when-
ever the military were called nut for the purposes
of state/ or .public convenience, the civil officers
should he alsts stationed. had given directions
to this efluttno the civil power, and uporta recent
occasinnhe had sent for the Chief Magistrate of
Westminster, and given him positive directions to
have IC eivil force -in,attendanee,,,and it the same
time told him to consider them as directions ap-
plicable to all occasions'on which .the military
-were called out' for -purposes of state or public con-
venience. The only circumstance wantitte, was a
regular "cornmunical too to the office of the -."ecre-
tat y of State, ofilie occasions on which the mili•
tars- tvere. so called out. There was a defective
communication .uptid this subject, hot as. that
mieht.easily he remedied, .and, as in cases where
the military were called out for these, purposes, he
would, as Secretary of state, take care that there
should he a civil force stationed, be saw no ne-
cessity for the motion.
Earl FITZISII.I.IAIit contended, that what bad
been advanced by' the Noble Secret aryot State went
directly in favour of the motion, .it appearing.
clearly Irma what the Noble Viscount bad stated,
that he-did not know of the military being called out
this day; and as therefore they were not called out
nods r the sanction of any recognized and responsi-
ble civil authority, it beersone the more incumbent
lip n the I-louse to call for the authority, be that
tnnirloitY what it, might, under which the troops
had been so callod out. He was the more
,jealous
upon this point, because there appeared a repetition
of the attempt to set tin the military power above
the civil power, in violation of the first princi•
pies of the Constitution. His Lordship instanced
a'ease at York in Aug. 1814, where, on the toren-
,
mon of Mr. Sadler, the terontort,-soldieri had made
their appearance to keep the ground, and, as it
was afterwards discovered, withoot any authority
derived from the civil power it was this
nut of the military upon every trifling oet.ssiort, •
without that subordination to the civil power,
under which alone they ought to be called
that rendered it an imperative do, v on the part of
that House to interfere, partirolarly when. they
found that the pledge :Ave,' he the Noble ViscOnnt,
that upon the occasions-when the 'military were
called out they should be placed under the eon.
iron, of the civil pourer, had not been redeemed.
Lord 'Viscount SIDMOtITtI , he perteetly
Agreed, that where for the preservation or recd.
ration of the peace-it wa necessary to call nut
the military, it yogis, only to he alone in.sishor-
diaatioo to the civil power. There cold(' he no
loofa upon this poiiit, hut it "did not apply to
eases where the militarY %vete merely called Out
for pnrpirses of state or public convenienee.
that: he had stated upon this head was, that he
would take care that civil officers should he sta-
tioned -where the military were stationed,' anditi
effect thiw.br had bean most anxious in giving di-
rritions, lie must say, howeser, that upon the
orrasinns'ttt State or public eons enienee on which
the military Were Salted nut,, they, heb tved in an
exemplary rmmer, so far as be could learn, td
every

The Earl hf Esatti admitted, that _upon the
present orraion he received no insult or violence
frolt the' soldiers, and that they were of coutse
bound to obey 'the orders of their Officer.,;''''' '
The Marquis of llncattsd}tsse. whilst he gave
credit to the Noble Viscount OR the other side for
his conitiNtional ophsions, Conld not by any
means agree that he had redeemed his pledge: On.
the contrary, not only bad the interruption by
military interference been repeated, but it appeared
ftat there was a power greater than that of ''the
Noble Secretary of State, which had ordered..out
these troops without his knowledge or participa-
tion, Anil by which, in .--defiance of law, peaceable
citizens proceeding in -their, lawful avocations on
the King's highway were stopped, and compelled to
iloto the sigh' ortlt left at the pleasure ot a soldier.
It was high time that that House should interfere
when they witnessed the continuance of these pro-
ceedings, when they saw that a power was set. up
above the law, by which, in defiance of the law,
peaceable citizens were interrupted by soldiers,
acting not only withone any orders :from the civil
power, but withont any connection, With any re-
Cognized civil authority.. This had been dearly'
proved by the speech of the Noble Viscount, and
that speeds was one of the most forcible argu-
ments for the motion of his Noble Friend. 'Let
their Lordships ascertain, as it was their consti-
tutional duty to do, who it was, be 'his rank in
the State what it might, that had thus ()Nerd('
nut a tnilitary force- to stop and interrupt peace..!-
able citizens in their progress through the streets,'
without any legal or recognized authority, in de-
fiance of gory, and in violation of the Constitution.,

The Earl of bsuozaDaLe expressed his deep
regret at what had fallen from the Noble Secre-
tary of State. He had understood the Noble Vis-
count, upon a former occasion, to have given a
pledge that the military should never be called
nut, except in subordination to the Civil Power,
be now found that the pledge of the Noble Vis-
cotiot merely amounted to this, that on these oc-
ensions, as they were called, of state and public
convenience, civil officers should be in attendance,
but in subjection, as it were, to the military. He
could not hut consider this as a departure from
the first and hest principles of the Constitution ;
it assimilated this country to the arbitrary On-
veinments on the Continent, where precisely the
same reasons would be assigned for the use of the
military upon public occasions as the Noble Vis-
count had urged for their employment here. He
could not, without alarm, observe the increasing
prevalence of such a practice, and he trusted their
Lordships, by agreeing to the motion of 'his
Noble friend, *wad take a first step to interfere
for the purpose of putting en end to a system so
abhorrent to the Constitution of this free country.
Lord Viscount St DNICWTH again drew a distinc-
tion between employing the military in subordi-
nation to the civil power, for the preservation or
restoration of the public Peace, and the employ-
ment of them for purposes of state tlnd public
convenience, where it was for general conve-
nient* that those whose duty led them to the
Court should not be interrupted in their progress
thither; and were it not for the military upon
such occasions, the public in general would be in-
.
conv'enienca in a much iteater (leirce. bad

also been the constant usage that the military
shmild lie so employed.
Earl Sy/iNIIOpB wished to ask whether the No-
ble Secretary of Stote was informed that the mi-
litary.would be called.out this day ?
The -Marquis' or LANSDOWNK contended, OA,
this repetition of• unauthorized military inter-
ference-imperatively .callea upon_ their Lordships
to take some steps, to prevent such a violation of
the Constitution ; and as a first step, they
ought to be Wormed by whose authority,these
orders had been given. It clearly appeared,
that it was not by the authority of the Noble
Secretary of State; who was the head of the civil
power, and the police ;. on the contrary, that
it was by some authority that would not ton-
&seen(' to communicate its intentions to the
Noble Secretary of State. And this was called a
defective communication—this was to be the apo-
logy for 149eking....tip streets and interrupting
peaceable citizens in their avocations. Let then
lie authority be communicateil.to the'llouse from
which these orders had emanated. The Noble
Secretary of State had given a pledge on a former
occasion, which, it was evident, hehatt-made ef-
forts to redeem, but had been unable ;.it power
greater Wan his- Ii id interposed, and set him at
-defiance. Let then this secret power be unfolded
40 the Utilise, that their Lordships might be en.-
-abled etlectuAly to interpose to prevent these con-
tinued violations of the Constitution.
Earl STANHopg declared his opinion, that if a
soldier, tinder the circumstances -butted, had killed
the coachman, or any other servant of his Noble
•Friend (Lord Esseit), the soldier acting antler or-
det s which we re illegal, wouhl have been. gnat)? of
murder, and those who issued the orders, as tic-
tessaries before the fact, wiudd have been guilty
,o 1 murder, •.• •
The Earl of I-Isnaowny deprecated the warmth
w. ich had been manifested; au l which lie did nut
think was called fur by the occasion. The calling
out the mi:;tary for the, purposes of , tiate had
been mt. practice as far back• as Memory could
mach,, 4111 it was tur the public .convenience that
they should be einp;oyed. It was not a question
of law , a conStiihie With his staff, in stopping an
individn..i on the King's highway, would be act-
ing as as 8 soldier with his sword, only
that the Appearance of ,t he latter might cause more
irritation. It was not a•ltietation as to the lega-
lily of the thing, -butt a question of custom and
usage. He recollected that, on the trial of .111 r.
Hastings, ',the military wOe*stationed in 'the aye-
hues to the High 'Court of Parliament, and yet
no objection, he belieVed, was evermade,to it in
either Hone of -Parliament. This then was,st. I
proof of the usage', tpou„'.owtsions of state, for I
public conveni.enee4.-. and it would be found that f
the convenience .of Are public. was muchbetter
consulted upon'oeeositins ollhis nature, by hay-
ing the military stotitingthflian by their 7not :being .
present. He, eadd ,:ieeiAliejeture, nu necessity
fur the motion. • ' ". •

Lord Hot,t,atip strongly,nrgett the necessity for
agreeing to the motion, in order that the powir
flaw ,+ kith the orders for the employment of the
htilitary Upoti this occasion had errianated, should
IN fully before House. The Noble Secretary
ot Stat e' had, uttered veryeOnstitotional doctrines,
taut when it tame to' the test, he was unable to
tedeeti3;oe- pledge which Ist: had given :.the mili-
tary were called ottt,- in: defiance ot• his authority,
and bit(speech, with Wiese adMissions, formed the
strongest argument for the motion of his Noble
.Frieno- (Lord ftls.tex.) As. to the. military being
called our for ,pnrposes of state, or parade, if
they Were merely to be 'paraded witlioat. inter.
rupting [moldy, of course there could be no 0b...
jection. He (Lord Holland) might think it a
had taste, And. that it was, in truth, the worst
possible taste the 14avernment of a free
ctiuntry,..to make a parade of a military force, but
conststotionally there could be now. objection.
Then came the ground of public Conveoieoce, and,
either 'public. convenience meant nothing, or it
'meant to preserve theliettee t and that; there was.
in this case a military forceeiilled out to. preserve
the peace, without any snhordination to or con-
troul of the civil' power. What was 'the ticcasion
too of calling out this Military force ? The
Lbrd.Alnyor and Corporation of Loudon came to
present an Address. He had certainly a high re-
spect for the Corporation .of Loudon, and tor the
very worthy individual' who ti'{iS now Lord Mayor;
but what is as the fact ? The Lord Mayor passes
through all the crowded and narrow streets of the
city without any soldiers to protect him, and with-,
out any inconvenience : and nt length, .when he
conies to Pall. Mall, it was to be supposed that such
a-crowd would flock to look at him, ,that a body of
soldiers were necessary to keep them off. The
whole of this, it must be evident, proceeded upon
a:gross absurdity. No reason whatever had, been
assigned for not agreeing to the motion of his
Noble Friend ; and he could net think their Lord-
ships would do their duty, if they did not require
information as to: the power front which orders
had issued :to employ a military force in defiance
of the law of the land. As to Hastings's trial,tso
far from no complaint being made, the fact was,
that the then Lord King complained in the House
of the interference 4'filsoutilitary, and some steps
were taken in contaquence to obviate the ob-
jection__

The Duke of Sostotx contended, that it appear-
ing the military were called out without the au.
thority of the Noble Secretary of State, who was
the legitimate .organ of authority for such pur,
poses, the house ought,to be informed by what
authority the orders, were issited, and he there-
fore supported the motion.
EarIiSTANHOPE quoted from the Journals of the
House the proceedings regarding Hastings's trial,
from which it appeared that it, was in consequence
of an Address of the House'to his Majesty to sta-
tion the military in the avenues to the High Court
of Parliament, as had been usual in similarcases,
that the .militu'ry were upon that occasion em-
.
ployed

Lnrd Viscount SIDIVIM/TET ridicttle4 the idea of
what was illegal in itself (as contended nu the
other side), being, rendered legal by an Address
of that Millie, and maintained that the usage was
what was referred to.

nOril FIOLGAND strongly urged 'Abe...fallacy of
the argument of the Noble St-retary of State, the
fact being- well. itootin. tliat the military were
only employed upon the occasion alimicti to, ii

I

I 2

subordination to the civil power, and cbristitu•
tionally employed at the instance and under the
discretion of a recognized authority. In this case
there was no recognized authorityi and no efforts
should be wanting to get at the authority front
which the orders emanated. .

;~

Lord Viscount SIDMOUTH again contended,
that if the employment of the military was illegal,
the address of the House could not render it legal.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNS said, neither his
Noble Friends nor himself had ever contended
that the 'employment of • the military was Illegal,
but. merely that it ssas so when. they were not
called out to assist and in subordination to the
civil power. By what authority had the troops
upon this occasion been called out ? The Noble
Viscount had spoken six times, but had never given
a direct answer to the question whether there Was
any civil authority. He (the Marquis of .Lani.
downe) now asked him for the last time, whether.
the orders for calling out the military this day had
been issued from the office of the Noble SecretAry
of State, or front any civil officer I---No atISIVer
was given.
The House- divided on the motion—
Contents 16
Non-Contents .
Majority against the Motion —l7
While the strangers were excluded, 'we undeti...
itand, the Marquis of BUCKINGHAM postponed hir
intended motion for an Address to the Prince Re{
gent on the subject till Friday.
One or two Petitions were then presented, anti
the Bills upon the.table 14n-or-fled, After wilits4
an adjournment (till to- morrow) took place.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Sir S. RoMILLY postponed his motion respect.
ing the Protestants in the south of France to
Thursday se'nnight.
Mr. Maherley took the paths and his
Rye, and General Mitchel for Antrim.
On the motion of Lord LASCELLES, the Agri-
culturßi ComnOtee was postponed on acc"nt 01
the indisposition of Mr. Western.
The county rate and the highway surveyors
Bills went through the Committee : itlo" "
Priday. seat for

HUSH ROMAN CATHOLICS,
Mr. GRATTAN observed, that be had a Petition
to present from the Roman Of 11.6111'
which he intended to present on Wednesd ay.its
should not immediately make any motion oil this
important. subject, but.only move, that the Peri"
Lion should.lie on the table. He should on ait
turc opportunity inform the House in due time or
any indttritt.—Hc—tvished that in the course of
the session this question, under all its circuits..
stances, should be very amply discussed,
but on
what particular motion he had not as yet ete"..
mined. Ordered to lie on the table.
The Hon. Mr. listimert,made Several rework°
en the state of the. Petworth•House of Corte",
lion, which, he said, was merely collection or.
solitary cells, wherein'individuals passed ilar sod
nights in a dreary state without occupation. tie
mentioned the cue of a woman confined for three '
years, not baying been able.to find bail, Nod Wall
at last removed to a mad.hoose. He mOved el
return of persons confined in the Petworth House.
at Correction, distinguishing eseh ease.
Mr. Minim. explained the circumstances Sf
this person's confinement, who was unable to
procure sufficient securities. lie believed she,
was deranged, as she had attempted to set fire to
a person's house, and committed other outraga.
As to thfi cells alluded to, they were owipg-to the
construction of the place, which had no commas
room of meeting.

The return was ordered ' also accounts of per 4
eons confined there for the last three years.
The Report of the committee or Supply for Jrc•
land was received, and the Resolutions agreed to.