The Sun.
London, England, 1818-03-17 00:00:00

ORDNANCE,

Mr R. WARD moved for a grant on account o
the Ordnance for the present year, of 120,0001.
HIGH BAILIFF OF WESTMINSTER.

Mr. Maasit rose to move for the grant of a
'tam in favour of the High Bailiff of Westminster.
This he stated to be a Case of pure unmixed jus-
tice,
which..he should but impair if he were to
speak on it at any length. He begged to remind
the Committee, that a grant in favour of this
Gentleman bad been recommended by a coinniilyt•
of thM House four years ago. 'The High Bailiff,
in the Elections -which 'had occurred of late yews,
had -taken the course which had been 'lnvariably,
pursued by his predecessors in office, by erecting
hustings; And had this not been done, scenes of
riot must' hate occurred that wont(' Infallibly
have proved utterly stihversive of the Right
of 'Election: The High Bailiff had been re-
fused payment by one of the persons elect-
ed. He had in - consequence brought his ac-
tion, hut the Court deciding against him, the
'action was lost, and the High Bailiff was left
15001. out of pocket. He now cattle to that
litmse, not for that sum, hut merely for the sum
of 8001, which he had lost by the Election of
1812: He moved that the 'sum of 8001. should be
'granted to reimburse the High Bailiff of 4Vest-
Ininz,ter for expenceS thrown on biro by the Elec-
tion-of 1612.
BAN &Vs, wished to ask the Chancellor of
the Exchequer if the consent of the Crown had.
been obtained to this grant, as from the time of
Q;ieen Anne no such resolution could be proposed
without the consent of the Crown ?
Mr. BROGDENT apolo4,rized to the Committee for not hay-
.ing qhted the consent of the Crown to have been obtained.
Mr. BASKE=s•still objected to the form of the motion.
Mr. BiIOGDEN thought the objection of the. Right Hon.
Cent!em-an Wight perhaps be obviated by introducing the
words ‘• granted to his Majesty."
The CHANCELLOR otthe EXCHEQUER stated the con-
sent of the Crown to hare hems oleaiaed lour years ago.
Mr. N. CALVERT wished to h•Lov.' v.:h.:4 were the emolu-
ments of the office of High Bailin. The,e ini;;;lit be so con-•
siderable as to !nuke it but reasonable that be should bear
the expence which had been thrown on him by au unexpected
contingency.
• Mr. BROUGHAM thought the claim thaLof justice, and
did not see that any reason could be given why the expellee of
the election should be thrown on the High Bailiff.
Mr. WY NNE thought it world he desirable that the Re-
port of the former Committee should be printed and put into
the hands of Members. He much doubted whether the
words of the Act would oblige the High Bailiff to erect hust-
ings, in such a case as that for Westminster in 1819.,—(Mr.
Brougham here that the words were imperative.)—lf the
wo,ds really were imperative, then, instead of beginning with
a vote in the i:oramittee of Supply, they should pass an Act
deeb-tring be whom the expence of erecting' hustings was to
be bo,ie. He could not understand how, in the case of
W.estmittster, the expence of erecting the hustings could
am vont son!.

nitouGH.VM said, he happened to he Counsel in the
cast- of Westminster allmled to. The existing Act was only a
temporary Act, and would expire either this year or soon
after.

Mc. C. WYNNE wished to know whether the motion before
the Committee was confined only to the case of 181,2. He
still could not understand bow, in the few hours- that the
election in 1812 lasted, such an expellee as 8001. could be in-
curred.
Mr. BROUGIIAM assured his Hon. Friend, that every
item in the charge bad been scrupulously examint.d.
Mr. WYNNE said the total amount of the charge was
1,6001., but as there `was a nonsnit in one of the actions, in
the Oil er the recovery was only against one of the Candi-
dates, and of one nopety of the whAe expellee. Why, ifthere
was only one Candidate against whom the plaintiff could re-
cover, did not he recover the whole sum against that one ?
Mr. B. BATHURST read an extract from a legal-opinion
. by Mr. Richardson, stating the legal reason why only 8001.
could be recovered at law. The Report alluded to by his Ho-
nourable nd (Mr. Wynne) might be bad by any Member
who chose to apply for a copy of it.
Mr. BARCLAY trusted, that if this grant was agreed to,
the House would make the loss sustained on like occasions
by the High Bailiffs of every large town. ' -
• Mr. C. CI INERT concurred in what was said by the Hon.
Gentleman who spoke last.
Mr. LOCIiii.IRT said, if the Hon. Gentleman who spoke
last would take the trouble of examining, they would find that
this grant would lie a precedent for-no other grant-whatever.
:The. high Bailiff of Westminster was, by,Act of Parliament,
liiible to ire proceeded against by information, or indictment,
os an enemy to the public peace, if be had riot erected the
'hustings in such a case as that of 1812.
'I he CHAIRMAN suggested, that the technical objection
of the Hon. Member for Cot fe Castle (Mr. Bankcs) might be
removed by framing the motion thus : " That 8001. be grant-
ed to-his f,r the purpose of enabling his Majesty to
in,lemnify the High Bailiff."
After a few words front Mr. BANKES and Mr.

The CHANCELLOP. of, the EXCHEQUER said, that this
cas:e Was completely • distinguished from any other. The
charge in thi, case was thrown upon the High Bailiff in a way
that never was intended by the Act of Parliament. Although
he f•ad a great objection to indemnifications of-this kind, the
present case was one of ,which Parliament certainly ougl&t to
'nal,: up :he loss.
A f; cr a few ;yards from Mr. N. CALVERT, the Gallery was
cleared for a-division, but none took place, and the Vote was
agreed to.—Report to-morrow.
NATIONAL MONUMENT.

Mr. TIERNEY gave notice that soon after the
Holidays he %vould move, that the Sumgranted
bjr Parliament 'fut• the erection of a 'Monument
to COIYITTICIIIOr9IC •the Victories by Sea and Land,
e laift-out in the erection of a Parish Church for
that intrpoze.

CrIANcELLoR of the EXCHEQUER said, that
the tibject to wbic;h.he was about to call the at-

tention of the Ilonte was not connected with that
alluded- th,C llonourabl.e Gentleman,
in as much asap ecouomical arrangement for the
boilding and enlargitivot Churches
the hingdotri Was Very: .ditierent front the exection
of a Monniti,nial• Chureh upon a great-licale of
ornamental ucnie..lut,e. At the same titne, he
was tar from being disinclined to coincide with
the view,. of the Right Mon. Gentiet»an•on this
subject--(Likoir, i,e4r, heal. !)—for he thought
dim it the Hight lion. Gentlenum, would do him
the faeour-to cownu with him on the sub-
ject, it would be found that they did not disagree.
His own opinion was, that nothing could bimore
fit than that national monuments should be !Ten-
dred applicable to purposes ot-general
(Chet' jug.)
• . .
Mr. TIFRKEY expresSO great satisfaction at
what had fallen trout the Right Lion. Gentleman
on this subject. It was so notch better that this
view had been adopted in that quarter in whiCh it
cook be most advantageously and properly. car-
ried into execution, that he could not but congra-
tulate the House upon it.
NEW CHURCHES.

On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the Ex-
CHEQUER, the order of; the day for taking into
consideration that part of the speech of the 14;!rds
Commissioners, at the opening of the Session,
which recommended the building of new Churches
and Chapels, was read; and the House resolved
itself into a Committee on the subject.
The CHANCELLOR of the Exursttatipt: thew said,
t 1... c no coma. ' •cation had ever been matte from
the Throne which was more entitled to the grati-
tude of the punlic than the present. More than
a century had now elapsed since Parliament bad
afforded .an accommodation to the public, by the
erection of new churches. That measure, how-
ever, was impelled, because no more than e'even
churches were then built, and since then -there
had been no additional accommocktion for public
worship. - Nor Ling could have ao long delayed
tit: accomplishment of so nece.sary art object, but
the difficulties in thick .the conntry had been
placed. The lrtcreaeC of our population since the
period in gut stion had reduced, the accommuda.
-don to so small a proportion, that 'it became the
duty of Parliament to remedy this great, and:
growing inconvenience. This want of aceommo-
dvion arose How front the great increase of people
in places which were formerly laid out into very
lalge parishes. Time population had been dotibled.
since the last increase ail churches took. nlace.
The average number of inhabitants
..vas 11,600.
for each parish the ,iota-tse of London ; while_
in that of Oxtord the nuimber was only, 2092.
There were therefore four to on more in one
diocese than in another. The dispropurion,, were
still greater in individual parishes. In the parish
of St. Martin's in the Fields, there were 26,000
ionabi,ants, while in aowiter parish there were
94,000, and inliary-le-bone there were 750,000.
In many parishes only a small proportion could be
accommodated. There were three parishes, its
which were 210,000 people who could not be ac-
commodated : there were eight; in which the de-
ficiency was front 30 to 40,000 people; anti in
twelve more, the deficiency amounted to 20,000.
It a church could contain one-third of ate inaa-
bitaats at one time, that would be a sufficient :lc-
commodation. , In a work published by- a Mr.
Yates, it appeared that the population of Londfin
was 1,129,000 ; and there were churehes only for
the accommodation of 151,000,- having; above'
900,000 persons without any accommodation.
The towns of Roman origin 'were divided
smaller districts, and were better prosided than
ihe others with churches. In the dioceses• of
York and Chester the disproportipn of the num--
her of churches to the population was less than
in that of London. In the-diocese of York there
were 96 churches, which afforded acconanhda-
don for 130,000 inhabitants. The pOpnlation
consisted of 720,000 souls, which consequently
left 580,000 souls unprovided with church-room
In the diocese of Chester there were 157 pa
ishes ; the population was 2,280,000 souls, an,

of these one million were unprovided with church.
room. Four parts of the population of Surrey
-were also without the accOmmodat ion of a church.
It was not, however, to the accommodation 'which
would be afforded by churches, that the benefit of
the present measure was litnittd. It tvould go to
increase the number of spit itual Ministers, and
afford to the people a greater share of that pastoral
instruction and attendance of which they stood in
aced. •It would lighten the duties upon some
Ministers, who had at present a great deal 100
much to do. In one parish it was stated, as,
the ordinary functions-!of the Sunday, that the
curate attended the church at nine o'clock in

the morning, gave early service, service at
eleven o'clock, and service in the afternoons—
lie then baptized from 1 to 20 children, and
read the burial service at from five to eight
funerals. In another parish the curate bad gene-
rally 50 christenings on a Sunday. Upon the
great festivals he had, at the least, 120.- Ile
had usually to celebrate 140 banns of marriage on
a Monday—they seldom were so low as 100, and
on one occasion they amounted to 156. Where.
the duties accumulated so much, it was morally
impossible that they could •be performed with all
that attention and investigation which they re-
quired. Impositions might pass unlimited, and
thus the civil rights of individuals might •be,nrost
materially.affected.—(lear !)—The outline of the

measure was—be should propose the vote of one
million sterling, to be paid ultimately out of ex-
tents in aid. This sum, though voted at once,
was riot to he all issued at one time, but as the
occasion required. It would be entrusted to
Commissioners, who would be vested with the same
powers and discretion as the Commissioners who

were appointed last year for the advancement of
public works. He thought this preferable to vot-
ing an annual sum. He should move at present for
the issue of Exchequer bills to that amount, which
would be chargeable on the extents in aid of a par-
ticular year. The Cummissipners would not con-
fine their inquiries as to'the necessity of building
churches to the metropolis alone, they would se-
lect any district where it was clear to them that a

want of accommodation existed, and it might be
more satisfactory to the House to know that a sum
out of this hind would be given to any particular
parish in furtherance only-of every fair exertion on

the part of the parish itself.—(Hear, hear !)—lt
would be given in-the.way of encouragement_ and
assistance, rathrt.thau as a complete exoneration,
and so far as tie parish was unable to raise funds.
of itself. In all cases the property of the incuni;
petits and patrons would be lett inviolate. Power
Would be given to the Commissioners to revive an
old parish in a district where a new Church would
.he built, and to plaCe the paristiouers under the
care of a new spiritual Minister ; and where pa-
rochial Chapels would be built, a Curate for it
would be provided by the Commissioners, who
would be removable only by the Bishop of the
Diocese, and,not by: the Minister of the Parish
,only. ' This, however, was not to affect the civil
.rights of those Ministers, nor in any other way
to diminish their jurisdiction. In his calculation
of the disproportion between the number of
Churches, and the amount of the population, he
did not make any reduetionlor those who were not
members of the Church of England. He thought
that Chnrches .should be prepared for all those
who might wish to attend them ; and he was
sure that there Were many of the Dissenters who
would attend-the Churches, 'if they could find ac-
commodation enough.—(Hear, hear !)—The pa-
rishes which would '.come forward most liberally,
would receive from the Commissioners the most
liberal aid ; and be anticipated great assistance
from the Society for Building Churches, which
had already produced much good. The patronage
would fallow the line which was already in prac-
tice, and every-. party would have his proportion-
able share of it. This was a measure wholly se-
parate fratif'POliticiAt came home to every friend
of the Church, such as %Lie those whom he _saw
around him. He concluded with moving a re-
solutionfor the issue of Exchequer Bills, to the
amount of one million sterling, for the Banditti:
of New Churches.
General TMORNTON expressed his satisfaction
that this measure was brought forward by the
Chancellm of the Exchequer. He was glad also
to learn that the monument in honour of the vic-
tory of Waterloo would be applied to the erec-
tion of a Church.
Sir C. MONCK thought it right that the people
should he suplied with places of worship. No-
-thing was more likely to check the progress of
Dissentera, or to reclaim them to the Church of
England. He did not, howeser, hope for any
great amelioration ,In the. morals of the people
from the tnrasure. The City of Norwich con-
tained thilty-nine Churches, yet he did not
think if particularly remarkable for the reli-
Ohms 'or moral habits of the population. 41,
therefore, any hope on these points were form-
ed, he was afraid it would fail. Under the prac-
tice of the Roman Church the same number of
Churches would have been sufficient for a larger
amount of population, because the Catholic houses
of warship were always open, and the people were
not obliged to be all there at once. It was worth
consideration, then, whether some modification in
the church-service .might not be necessary. The
service might be shortened, or performed oftener.
'The sum of money required was a large one; but
he ,a w no reason why one million should be ne-
cessarily laid out on the one hand, nor why it
tltould be limited on the of tier. He approved ge-
nerally of the plan which the Right Hots. Gentle-
man deieribed.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that
he had omitted `to state, that in Oltery churches
there would he free pekes for tho'se of the parish
WI-JO were unable to pay for them.—(Hear, hear!)

shronld:also haestated, that it was intend-
ed that three services should be performed each
day. It 'tiii':4llt he thought advisable to increase
lirpes of service caeli4day in the churches already
-ocisti,g, Sand- probably some improvement might
be effected in that way.—(.(Dear;.hear !)
Mr. CALVERT asked, whether it was intended
that the service should be subdivided ? .•

The Cl-lANCELLOR Of the EXCHEQUER replied in
the negative.

Mr. W. SMITH said, that there were mony
parishes so large, that those at the remote parts
of them:- could not attend the churches at all.
-There were some parishes in Scotland forty miles
long ; and he knew one parish in which, from
some of the parisioners, the church was thirty
piles :di-stant. He hoped, therefore, that some
,attention, would be paid to that part of the king-

• dom. •
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, tha
there was no objection to submit a separate urea,
sure for Scotland.

Dr. PHILLIMORE thought the measure altoge-
ther unexceptionable.
The question was then put. The Resolution
was agreed to neon dis. Report to-morrow.