The Sun.
London, England, 1845-06-03 00:00:00

MORNING, JUNE 3, 1845.

Catholic-religion there rendered it incumbent that a better ' had yet been made for establishing a system of Mum-Jinn
organisation should exist in any scheme of academical education amongst the middle classes of that country. It ap-
than was contemplated in that country. In England there was an peered to him that education always descender,. anti
Executive Government which was respected by the people, never ascended. and as this Bill would give the blessings . f
who paid a willing and ready obedience to it, and there were education to a class who had hitherto been unable to avail them-
established laws which were generally acquiesced in and obeyed selves of the existing system of education, he was not indhex,:
by the people of both England and yScotland, and there was a to oppose its second reading. lie could not, however. say thus
Church in both those countries which was in the possession and much without at the same time regretting that some proles:ries
exercise of great influence. There was also another relation, hail not been introduced into the Bill to provide for the reigioes
that of landlord and tenant, which yielded the landlord the instruction of those young persons who were to be educated at
du, fruits of industry, and extended to the tenant the blessings those colleges. The religious objection to the Bill might.
of protection and peace in his avocations. If we look at all however, be easily obviated by Government extending those
these relations as regards Ireland, we shall discover a very great clauses which sanctioned the voluntary endowment of theolo-
difference between them. The Executive in Ireland was vague gig al professors in these colleges.
and unsatisfactory. The administration of the law was attended Captain B. OSBORNE could not understand how Hon.
with danger and difficulty, and was unsafe. The Prime Minister Members who supported national education could oppose this
of the Government had admitted there was ro confidence in the Bill, because, in his opinion, it rather extended that prin.
administration of the law which gave satisfaction to the people ciple than otherwise. the real question, however,
of Inland, and a similar objection would apply to the at issue he apprehended to be the propriety of este-
present Established Church in Ireland. The relation of bushing a system of mixed education and secular instruction:
landlord and tenant, as it now existed, tended rather but he thought the arguments which had been applied to a
to the commission of crime than to the good conduct mixed education could be as forcibly urged against the social
of the people. On the subject of education, he thought that intercourse, in after life, of those who professed different re-
the various orders of the State ought to be united together, ligious opinions. There were certain elau3es in this Bill to
and- any measure that had for its tendency the promotion of which he was strongly opposed. Ile alluded to those clause:
the good of either class should he adopted, so as to receive which placed the power of appointing professors to those eel-
the sanction of all parties. He held with a great proportion loges in the hands of the Government, for it appeared to him
of the people of England that the Roman Catholic Church in that the Home-office was desirous of possessing as much pa-
Ireland was ore of those powers by which great good might tronage as the Horse Guards. He regretted that he eas
be promoted, and by which all the people there might be obliged to give the Government only a meagre rust
united together in social brotherhood, and be reduced in obedi- port ; but while they were legislating upon this
ence to authority, and to a feeling of just respect for the laws. subject, they ought at once to establish some central instit in
The Roman Catholic Church, in his opinion, ought to he tion, like Tririty College, for the education of youth of eli
consulted on any scheme for popular education in Ireland. sects and classes in Ireland, who might distinguish themselves
The terms which they might demand might be extravagant, in one of those provincial establishments.
but what to receive, and what to reject would be a matter of Mr. GL A DSTONE agreed with the Noble Lord the Mem-
mutual accommodation. The Academical Education Bill, her for the City of London, that this measure was an imperfect
as it at present stood, created great distrust amongst the Re- one, but in the present existing state of things in Ireland.
man Catholic Prelacy and priesthood in Ireland, and they where the religions opinions anti sentiments of the people were
hail come to a resulation, implying fear and distrust. that the so much divided, how was it possible that a measure of this
faith and morals of the middle orders of people in Ireland kind could ever approximate to perfection, much less reach it-?
would be endangered, and probably destroyed, by the proposed lie was not one of those ;the would join in forcing even a more
measure; and unless these difficulties were resolved, the Roman perfect measure than this upon the Catholic clergy and laity
Catholic clergy cm& not conscientiously recommend those against their wish, and it would he monstrous that on account
persons who came to them for spiritual advice, to send their of a mere majority of English voices to reruse the tender of that
sons to the colleges it was proposed to found. He which would he considered a boon in Ireland. The Noble
thought that the Roman Catholic Prelates would receive Lord stated that be thought it desirable that th. Catholie
little satisfaction from the various observations that Prelates should be consulted on this measure, and stared
had fallen from Hon. Members, in that House, on the subject. that Archbishop Murray could gists most valuable advice to the
They had been told that it was intended to ..put .down their Government. There might or might not have been such corn-
power with a strong hand. Observations had been used by the munication, as far as he knew ; whether it had taken place or
Hon. Gentleman who had last sat down as to the system of not, or whether it was desirable or not that such consultation
education pursued in Italy, and that at Verona pupils were in- sh old take place, he was rot prepared to say, but it was his
strict ed in the principles of a faction which was called ()Onion that very considerable weight should attach itself to the
" Young Italy." He had also alluded to the educational plans wishes and views of the Irish people. With regard to the
pursued in the Universities of Germany and France, but so far question of consultation with Roman Catholic prelate?, he
from following the unwholesome precedents laid down by that should express an opinion a little beyond that of the Noble
/lon. Member, he (Lord John Russell) would fly far from Lord in the course of a recent debate on the question of religion
them and avoid them as precedents to be altogether avoided.— as relating te. Ireland. He thought that the Noble Lord the
( Hear, hear.) He would ask if no means could be suggested Member for Newark (fend John Manners) adverted to it as
that would render the proposed measure more acceptable to advantageous that a diplomatic relation should exist between
the religious majority of Ireland. It had been objected to the this country and the see of Rome. He was of that opinion also,
measure that it did not embrace any provision for religious for the original prohibition of that relationship was .not a pro-
education. They had been told by the Right Hon. Gentle- hibition on religious grounds, but en religious pounds.—
man opposite that there were precedents and analogies for in- (Cries of .. Hear, hear.") It may be said that that relationship
ten talons of education without religion, but it appeared to him ought to have been renewed long ago. He agreed that it was
that the analogies had very little resemblance; and the prece- rather late now, but in any measure like the one now under
dents were without authority.—( Hear, hear.) The Right discussion, he thoueht that it was most unhap my, for a great
Hon. Gentleman had said, with respect to the schemes of edu- many reasons, that they should continue to refuse the este-
cation pursued at Oxford and Cambridge, that very little reli- blishment of a diplomatic relation and ordinary good feeling
gious education prevailed in those establishments, and yet they which existed not only between Christians but all civilised
would not admit Dissenters into those collegiate institutions. nations, and which ought to exist with the Pope in particular,
Before the reformation the hoads of those colleges were univer- on account of the religious position which he held. He only
sally Roman Catholics, but duringthe reign of Henry VIII. they referred to the fact that a diplomatic relation had been in
had been deprived of their appointments and sent adrift; and again, existence, and that it existed nowt though unavowed, in con-
in the reign of Queen Mary, they had been reinstated in their sequence of the absolute necessity which a successful Govern-
places; and further, when Queen Elizabeth succeeded to the anent thought themselves unable to resist. It was said, awl
throne, these professorships were resumed by persons profess- with a great appearance of truth, that on the question of edu-'
ing the Protestant reformed religion, and it was provided that cation there ought Lobe a communication between the Govern-
religious instruction should form a main constituent of the edu- ment and the heads who represent the Roman Catholic people.
cation taught in those universities. With respect to secular Archbishop Murray might, for instance, when consulted, give
education, it was not true that it was an evil unless accompanied the very best advice, and with the greatest ability, but his
by religious education; and, in his opinion, it was a desirable authority was not supreme ;it would be liable to be overruled
thing.—(Hear, hear.) He would say, that no man who pos . by orders from the Court of Rome. The English Govern-
sessed the means detaining secular instruction without religious ment would then be in the position of having hound themselves
education would refuse to avail himself of the means afforded. to persons not of the highest authority. The Right Hon.
There was. however, a difficulty in public education which Baronet, the Secretary for the Home Department, made al-
could not be easily resolved as to the classes who were to be lusiors to the University of Oxford, but he was of opinion
instructed. He had given his support to the measure for este- that his information was rather ineorrect. It was 14 or 15
blishing the University of London, because he thought that years ago since he left that University, and fell, perhaps, under
Disseeters, Roman Catholics, and others professing religious the same imputation as the Right Hon. Baronet; but he did
opinions not congenital with those' entertained by the Este- not think that at that time religious instruction was insuffi-
Wished Church, should not be deprived of the opportunity and cient. Before they became graduates in that university, they
means of obtaining a collegiate education equal to the advan. were obliged to attend lectures on divinity. The great bulk
tages which were derived from Oxford and Cambridge Univer- of instruction was given in the private rooms of the tutors, and
sities, from which the individuals referred to were debarred. addressed to their particular pupils ; and that, perhaps, was the
The London University possessed the power only of conferring most valuable instruction. That continued while they were
degrees. There were various colleges in connexion with the undergraduates. As respected knowledge in religion, he did
University belonging to the Independents, the Baptists, and not think that there was not an insufficient stock afforded
others, where the peculiar tenets of those sscts, as regarded when he considered that those who received it were about to
religious matters, were conducted by theological professors. be Members of that House, or who were to be country hen-
The case of analogy of this University and the Universities of tlemen, or lawyers, or persons filling the various relations of
Scotland, where the religion differed only in ceremonial per- life: In point of thee sr he was of opinion that the measure
formances from the Established Church, were not applicable to now before the House had fallen far short of measures which
the condition of education in Ireland. In Ireland there was a had been formerly granted. The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
university which was liberal to a certain extent, as far as re- Gladstone) then refer ed to the system adopted at the London
garded its under-graduates, but with respect to the bestowal University, and to the effuses of Dr. Arnold to obtain the in-
of its honours it was separate and exclusive.—( Bean) He troduction of some amount of examination on the texts of Scrip-
would contend that that university could constitute no prece- titre, which s'aeuld be common to all Christians. Ile (Dr.
dent for the establishment of the proposed educational system. Arnold) was nni prepared, however, to admit Jewe, but the
The universities intended to be formed should differ in their plan now intended was to admit Jews. The different stages
system and bearings from all the universities in Eng- of Christianity were important to he known to the historical
land, Ireland, or Scotland. They should be arranged student, whether Heathen or Christian. He might be
on such principles as would suite the state of the country. The told that that system was not as fit fer Ire-
Hon. Member for Cork objected to the scheme because all the lend as it was for England but he should sly that
professors were to be nominated by the Government. If the it was more fit for Ireland than England, because the religious
people of Ireland were willing to accept this arrangement, and distinctions in that country drove them to a greater extremity;
were content that the professors should be so named, he had and because the dangers of that iystem were more likely to.
nothing to say against the measure, bet the contrary was the arise in this country, where the religious discipline of relies;ons
case. The people were afraid of the mal-influence likely to communities was lax and weak, than in a country where intli-
result from leaving the power altogether in the hands of the viduals were under personal religious discipline. The Right '
Administration. He (Lord J. Russell) could not see the lion. Gentleman then referred hack to the middle ages, Vilin
great advantage to be derived from these colleges as at present it was not comptilsory upon the students at Oxford or Cam-
proposed, either looking to the state of Ireland, or regarding the bridge, as members of those Universities, to attend Isettires or
principles on which the colleges were to be founded. He eon- worship, because there was no daily warship. The se seem of
tended the Government ought to take advantage of the info- lecturing was no doubt a religious system, because it was ailini-
' ence which the Roman Catholic clergy possessed. Ile would nistered in a religious spirit, but it was when those wirer-
sas lot secular instruction be given if sou leave out religious sities became colleges that the religious principle was applied.
education, but if religious instruction be contemplated, The inns or halls in which the students were then received were
let the Roman Catholics he consulted.—( Hear, hear.) originally nothing, more than boarding-houses, and did not at
If you would give them authority to expel students who were all anproaeh to the character of colleges. He would beg to
dissbedient to the orders of the Board they would get over the state, that those Hon. Members who opposed the system
evil. But there remained another feature of the plan ; that was, adopted by the Government, were only enforcing, their own
the feature of giving degrees of studentship at the University. private ennions.—( Hear. hear.) The policy which induced
He thought that ought to form part of the plan. They had the Government to bring forward this measure was the same
the Trinity College attached to an University able to give de- policy as that on which was founded the 21-ant to Maynooth.
grecs, and consequently superior to these provincial institutions. lie ( Mr. Gladstone) gave his assent to this measure, not be-
For these reasons he thought the plan crude and ill-digested, cause it accorded with his own private opinions, but because it
and he thought that it would have been much better if they had was likely to be acceptable and useful to the people of Ireland,
consulted the Roman Catholic Prelates, and others high in au- and was in consonance with the dictates of society. He saw
thority in that Church; they would have had a much better many objections to the plan of the Noble Lord, and he thought
prospect of coming to a favourable termination. He meant the object he had in view would not he gained by it. He
such men as Archbishop Murray, a man whose fidelity to his considered the defects that had been complained of
church was to him a high proof of his fidelity to the State ' • and might be got over by voluntary contributions. The
had they taken such advice as his, the future would have been Bill contained one principle of religious instruction, that
much more clear and happy. The Presbyterians were, he be- was, providing rooms in which lectures might be delivered.
hewed, favourable to the plan, but this did not give the advan- He thought secular education without religion was had, but
tage which they obtained in the grant to Maynooth. That that was not the question before the House. There were usher
went straight to its object, and was nest tainted with the points in which the question might be regarded. His Noble
defect which this Bill would suffer from. Notwithstanding all Friend the Member for Newark had said. why not establish a
these deficiencies, however, he could not agree with the Noble system of Roman Catholic education? Why if that was done
Lord the Member for Newark in opposing the second reading they
of this Bill. He should vote for it because he thought its ob- would be obliged to establish a system of Trinitarian edu-
cation, and perhaps a system of Arianism itself, and when he
jest was a good one, and he believed that her Majesty's looked at the alternative, he thought they would be doing far
Ministers would introduce such improvements into it in Com- more injury by adopting the plan of his Noble Friend than
mittee a; would render it much better than it now was. If that brought forward by the Government. Both on the
those improvements were not introduced, they would be voting ground of principle and practicability he thought the
their money for purposes which, year after year, would prove plan of the Noble Lord far inferior to that proposed by her
less and less satisfactory, but he believed that these improve- Majesty's Ministers. After having passed the Maynnoth Bill,
ments would be introduced, and he should, for these reasons, he thought they would be deserving of the reprehension of their
vote for the second reading.
constituents, if they preferred the plan of the Noble Lord to
Lord MAHON said that he should vote for the second that of the 'Government. He did not apprehend that there
reading, but only because he expected great improvements was such difficulty in electing professors as had been anticipated
would be introduced into it in Committee, and if those inn- by some Honourable Members. The Right Honourable Gen-
provements were not made, he should give his most strenuous tleman concluded by stating that amid a choice of difficulties he
opposition to it on the third reading. In 1839, his negative should vote for the second reading of the Bill, in the firm be-
against the motion of that day had been overcome by a majo- lief that if its provisions were carried out good would result
rity of only two, and he still thought that the sentiments from it.
which he then expressed that no college could be complete Mr. WYSE did not think that sufficient information
without religious instruction had been proved by experience to had been given to the House of the manner in which education
be correct. The Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary of the was to be carried on under the Lill. He was anxious that
Home Department had said that the pupils could obtain reli- universities should not be turned into mere grammar schools.
gious instruction on each day, but was it their inten- He admired that part of the plan which would tenth to oeten the
tion that these colleges were to be schools for the towns only only university they had in Ireland to all. fie had cons; iered
in which they were placed, or institutions for the this measure for many years, and though he had Some f lj.e-
provinces in which they were situated ? 1 f the tions to the details of the measure, he was as he had alway been
latter, then certainly the argument that he had used favourable to the principle which would give a mixed sis'etn
on this point fell to the ground. He was ready to move the of education, because he believed it would lead to the best re_
addition of this principle himself, or he was ready to assist any sults. The recognition of a system of academical education
other amendment. Without the addition of the principle of was a great step gained in that House. He thought education
religion, instruction would lose the best of its characteristics, ought to be based on religion and morality, and
and become almost useless. They might, indeed, enlarge the the question was, would the Pill have that effeet
mind and refine the intellect, but they would not correct the If these colleens were intended, he presumed they were, to be
heart. He trusted, therefore, that her Majesty's Government not merely colleges for education, similar to that taught in the
would consent to introduce this principle into, their measure—to Universities, but what he considered of much more importance,
introduce a principle without which it appeared to him it would to be colleges for the education of the middle classes in all the
prove injurious rather than beneficial. industrial branches, they ought to take steps to secure as many
Mr. A. HOPE said, that so far did he differ from what his students as possible, at as cheap a rate as was consistent with
Noble Friend who had just sat down bad stated, that he the maintenance of the establishments. The most important
hoped the measure would be so amended in Committee, part of the question was the appointment of the professors
but he believed that it was so faulty that no amendment could themselves. He thought it was of infinite importance, net
render it available for the purpose for which it was professedly merely in reference to the colleges themselves, but with ref.,
intended, and it apparently was only the opening of a little rence to the whole march of Government with reference to the
sluice, but it was the first step towards • the introduction social concord of the entire country, that if they were to have
of that system from the Continent which rendered them, professors in these colleges, whatever their talent and ve-
in his opinion, so inferior to the universities of this country. quirements might be, they ought to be above suspicion.
The Government entered office on the tacit understanding He could not give his assent to that portion of the Bill which
that they would conduct the affairs of the country on the placed the power of nominating those professors exclusively in
principles of Conservatism, and that they would uphold the the Crown. Any precedent for such a proceeding could not be
Constitution in all its integrity. Yet in 1845 they had pro- found in any of the Universities of England and Scotland.
mulgated a measure similar to the one introduced by the His views of the Bill were founded on objections which he
Whig Government of 1825, which they had patched up in- considered applicable to it in its present state. He would be
stead of re-constructing. He concluded by expressing his ready to give his assent to other principles connected with this
intention of giving his most strenuous support to the amend- measure as a mere matter of education. There would be no
ment of the Hon. Member for Newport.
hope of religious spiritual equality in Ireland, unless you told
Mr. M. MILNES explained that whenhe referred totheuni- the people that the religious feelings of their youth should not
versifies of Oxford and Cambridge, he wished it to be under- be prejudiced in any way. He would not wish for an exclu-
stood that they were in a more efficient state than they had sively Roman Catholic College, or for an exclusively Preeby-
been for years before. terian College, but let it beequally free from religious influences
Mr. V. STEWART thought that some kind cf education of every description. As regarded Maynooth, it was proeer
was loudly called for in Ireland. Means had been taken to that its fundamental principles should remain unaltered, it wee
give the higher classes of that country an efficient education, solely appropriated for the education of Roman Catholic
whilst the education of the middle and lower classes had been priests, and to the furtherance of that object let it be ran-
comparatively
neglected. He gave his best thanks to the Go- tinued. He could not admit that the Crown ought to interfere
vernment, for having adopted a measure which would have the with the regulations of that University. The present pro-
effect of facilitating the progress of education in that country ; posed system of education would not administer satisfactorily
and it was one which he thought was the best that could be to the requirements of the people. Whatever scheme was
devised under the present circumstances of Ireland. It founded on just and liberal principles for the education
butof the
would have been folly to have recommended a system Irish nation, should receive his most cordial support ;the
.
of education at variance with the opinions of the clergy, who establishment of such system must leave open the
.ad_vantages
had great influence over their flocks. It was recommended by to he derived from it, equally, fully, and fairly to all classes ns
some that a system of mixed education should be adopted; but the community.
if that were so, the Protestant College on one side, and the Mr. ACKLAND observed that he would shortly se•view the
Roman Catholic clergy on the other, would oppose each other, means by which it was proposed to carry the Acacl 'emical Edu-
and much of that good feeling which subsisted between this cation measure. Hitherto no Member who " d spoken on the
country and Ireland would be very much diminished in cause- subject had expressed his unqualified eseprobation of it.--
quence. The opinion held by many of the Bishops, that if the (Hear.) The measure had been so much dissected arid
education to be adopted was to be a mixed one, that they should pulled to pieces by different lions Gentlemen, that only a bare
have the appointment of all the professors was absurd With stump remained. There wan a great difficulty in dealing with
respect to an assertion which had been made by the Right Hon. the question as regarded the assumption of an Hon. Member,
Baronet the, Member for Oxford (Sir R. Ai. Inglis) that who concluded that the appointments to the professorships
be under'stood attempts had been made to subvert the national should be placed distinctly on a religious footing. The result
s.•hools of Ireland, he referred to the case of the Rev. Mr. would be that persons going into those colleges should have a
M'Nee, who was censured by the Rev. Dr. Davey, the Bishop religious education without one farthing tiering been paid for
of to the principles on which the Bill
l the seaside he interested himself in a school which was at- was founded, the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the
tended by a great number of Protestants which the resident Home Department had quoted from the report published in
clergyman bad neglected, because he differed with the system 183 G, that it was intended to frame the Bill on " sound prin.
of education which was pursued in it, and did notttlh e it his elides," it
.had benenAbernoiuhgehrateafomrwe adrodwanstorethstaintig
null': en na
n d" t soot tut nuds
to Ideal with sound principles it would be ad-
duty to attend it, and the children were consequeny io-efndtehreeidr
tpirleinyci‘ivdeersen'gNolirahge
visable to consider on what those principles rested. He eon
liable to be educated in a faith different from that
parents.
Mr. HAMILTON would be sorry to give a silent vote upon tended that educational instruction should be left entirely' to like the present; but he agreed with the Noble the willing selection of the recipients, and not thrust upon
an
nord who had moved the amendment. that no system deserved them ; and he further considered it a perfect delusion to schemeat-
opoiftlicadnuscoaftitohne inR olmrealannl.,ditwhoitlhiao
cultergy
there.
religion. He, tempt any
the name of education that was not based upon
therefore, could not absolutely give his assent to every part of the interests anl consulting
the measure of the Government; but, nevertheless, he agreed They will not receive an
with the Hon. Member who had just sat down, that there without suspicion, h
3'
aMo3"ase ich they could not adopt
The P.'t had met w
were large masses of the Irish people attached to no particular fusel of the Iris ith the unanimous re-
.
religious sect, who would be glad to take advantage of these reel-- '•
... Bishops to adopt it. For these reaseses, not
prig
colleges, in the event of their being sanctioned by Park..- - •
~,suing it as a measure contradictory of ;hoes long and
Great fforts had lately been made to --• because
eeent. consistently entertained,
itmongct the lower clams or , -
introduced it as in consonance with the ne-
,omote education ment consistently
1'
. "--
.. sae Irish people, but no attempt cessity of the times, and rendered compulsory by the pressure

from without, but considering it in theory and pract
they had the experience of the Scotch, Belfast, and
colleges, though the latter he scarcely considered in point—,
sentiaily impolitic, he should, though reluctantly, recoesk,
hc; v.tte against the second reading of the bill. inkTra
entering this opposition it might be retorted that he simuld"•-( I
prof OS vi a better expedient; though he did not assent to that
proposition,. he was-not. unprepared to give a sketch of what
be considered would be a preferable, if not a benefical system.
Ili, would suggest that an honest and fair attempt be made by
Liu- Gov..' nment to induce parties well inclined in Ireland to
❑nits for the benefit of their respective Churches, and volun-
tarily to establish colleges and religious academical institutions.
Stn.th a apt. in he believed would, under the sanction of a fos-
tering Government, prosper in itself, as withdrawing dissen-
sions and conciliating acrimonious feelings, and at the same
time affording a feasible means of education and religion. In
the absence. however, of anything approaching to suc a Twin-
eirle, he could not assent to the present measure, althonAli. at
'lie same time, be protested against the conduct attributed to
the Government.--( Hear, hear.)
Mr. MORE OTERRALL regarded the princirle of ii 6
Fill as wholly dissimilar from that of the national education.
i:, the latter the inpil remained under the surveillance of his
,gents, and was I y them trained up in the religion they destred
--ltd professed ; but in the measure now proposed the students
‘, ere wholly divested of authority or control. On political and
ligious considerations, therefore, he felt it his dote to give his
v.,te against the second reeding of the Bill. He regretted,
!terefore, that he could net vote for the second reading of the
13,11.

I"

after a few words from Caet. I3ERNAL OSBORNE in
:;placation,
Sir R. PEEL s until he had heard the speech of the
!light Hon. Gentleman I e thought whatever dill, renees of
opinion might prevail oil the detaila of the measure that there
Was a general concurrence in one sentiment—if the Govern-
ment could overcome the difficulties which had arisen
!rem different religious creeds—( Hear. Lear)—and could ex-
tend academical education in Ireland, that it would be a gre; t
hems— (Hear, hear.) His lion. Friend doubted whether that
nectessi'y existed, and whether the institutions would effect
e good that was interded. Looking to the population, he
reigin now be assured that they could overcome the difficulties
select: they had to encounter—that, looking to the state of Ire-
land—to the extent of the populaticn—an ample provision for
aced:en:eat education was called for a, much as at Oxford. Cam-
ender', King's College, and other institutions in this country.
They lad undertaken the educati in of the lower orders. 'they
had 400 iestioniuns iu the country. with the pupils from the
ege of 12 to 14. the most important period of all whose educa-
tion was to be superintended. They could not send them to
Seetland, anti the question then was, were they to have esta-
blislaucets in Munster and Connaught or not, with the means
of education? He would read an extract from a work of great
Interest to all who had anything to do with the means of edu-
eat ion. The work was the composition of an eminent: proles-
or, Dr. Kane. It had been necessary to establish a geolo-
gins! professor, and they had appointed him because they
It'd a strict confidence in him, and had no fear
of the fulfilment of his duty. This was the
person whom they had appointed to instruct the whole
per,plo of Ireland, and they did not think that because he was
a Roman Catholic he would pervert the office he had been ay.
pointed to fill for sectarian purpeees. What was the opinion of
Dr. Kane, given long before the establishment of those aca-
demical institutions was contemplated? What, he said. was
the opinion of Dr. Kane with respect to the resources of Ire-
land and the means by which those resources were to be deve-
loped? He gave his opinion in the concluding chapters of his
work. In the course of those ob,ervations he stated that his
impression ;vas, that the want of capital was the bugbear of
helmet. What Ireland wanted was a development of
the industrial energies of the country. This would
develupe the whole of the resources of Ireland.—
( Hear, hear.) It was this e liich led to the institution of the
collegiate establishments. This was an answer to his Hon-
Frieed the Member for Somersetshire, when he told him.
that the instructive institutions of Ireland were to be founded
on the principle that the instruction of the lower classes was to
he confided to men who were in the confidence of the people.
Among the youths who were there eaucated they were to give
all the prestige of their early years, and to mix in the world
with the impression that they were to mix with those with
whom their early years were present. Supposing they had.
altogether laid aside the question of religious education. still
there were points which well deserved the observation of the
House and peculiar to the country of which they were speak-
ing. They could not send the pupils to England or to Scot-
limit, and he thought that the best plan would be to institute
:wider:deal institutions in Ireland. But what was the religious
portion of the religious orders in that country, and what was
their position with regard to the State. What was to be done
w:th those professors of a moral and scientific character. 'fhe
Ito!e of the youths of the country were to be instructed.,
and see citing to his Honourable Friends, there was
to be a difference between the Roman Catholic
anti the Protestant. The Presbyterians might make the same
claim. and what would be the consequence of the principle
which his lion. Friend the Member for Oxford ( Sir R. H.
Ingli- adopted, and who styled the subject one of immense
on.iiesseess. There were Protestant, Roman Catholic, and Pres-
b teeter. prejudices to grapple with in this matter. There was
no poectistion of fifty years, as was the case with regard to
Ma:at:stole There was here no awful delusion to be advocated
in In, lame of religion. He was aware that he had stated the
suleearee of the speech of his Honourable Friend the
Member for Oxford—not the speech which he heel de-
livered, but the speech which he would have delivered if
he hat beea apprised of all the circuaistances.—( Laughter.)
The original proposal was that Government should only pat.
tinily contribute to those institutions, and the grand juries of the •
different counties should provide for these institutions, and the
comeibutions of Government were to depend upon the exteisa
of the voluntary contributions. By the present measure, how-
ever. Government bound themselves to erect buildings and
establish professorshinn and it was not unreasonable to call
upon the parents of the children to be educated at these col-
leges to attend to their religious instruction. What was the
religious instruction given at Harrow ? Was it done by a
toaster giving a morning lecture on theology ? No ; the coarse
hi this—the parents of the children ascertain the tunre.... cha-
racter of certain persons who act as tutcrs at Harrow, and if
their inquirit s prove satisfactory the parents commit their
children to 'he care of the tutor, and invest him with
parentsl authority. Now was this much better ? Was it not
mo e effectual than establishing a religious system of education.
and why should not the same course betaken at these Colleges?
It was the eeurse taken at the institution in Liver fool and,
Bristol, where it had worked well ; and why should not the
same system be extended to Ireland? But Parliament hafr,
already sanctioned the extension of this system to Irele.nd,
fur in Kilt) Parliament sanctioned the establishment of an
institution which was called the Belfast Academies/ In:tit u-
lion. that institution affords Oassical and mercaenoe sauce_
tion to youths, disconnected from all religkw, instructions.
Dr. Crony had borne his strong testimony ir, favour of those
institutions, and he would pledge the expee.ence of this distin-
guished prelate against the predictions of those Hon. Members
who said the religious education let the youths to be brought
tip at these colleges would be ne'glected. Dr. Crolly distinctly
stated the religious education of the pupils in the Belfast Irsti-
.e.d to. and a due and proper regard
tution were strictly attend
was paid tone various v.eligious principles of all who we:e edu-
cated at that establ;nment. Now, this was Irish experience,
and he—setting lt against the predictions which had been in-
dulged in, by some Honourable Members might add,
that the only objection Dr. Crolly had against the Bel.
fast institution was that it possessed professors of theo-
loge,: and divinity. Now, nothing had more surprised
him than the opinion of the Irish Roman Catholic prelates. He
had read the documents they had published on this measure,
and nothing had filled him with so much surprise. Was it not
monstrous to suppose that a youth professing Roman Catholic
principles could not be instructed in theology except by a Roe
man Catholic tutor. Now, this appeared to him to be •realty
absurd ; but were not the youth belonging to the
Established Church placed upon the same footing
as those professing Roman Catholic principles ? But
independently of this was it likely that a professor of anatomy,
after describing the miracles of the working of the human body ;
after describing how every artery was connected with the fibres
of the human frame, would terminate his anatomical lecture.
with an attempt to undermine the religious principles of hie
puoils. He could not conceive it possible that a gentleman.
holding the high station of professor of the sublime sciences est
anatomy and astronomy should take advantage of the
Petwer he
-possessed over his pupils to turn their minds against those re-
ligious principles in which they had been brought up. —( Hear,
hear.) lie thought that the plan would be incomplete, unless
these colleges were incorporated with each other. The union
of these institutions into one university would I.e preferable to
the giving to each college the character of tin university. If
the plan worked well, and met with confidence, some time
hence would be the period for considering whether then they
should be incorporated, and what power the universi-
ties should possess with respect to the giving of
degrees, &c. They did not make any declaration
then on that subject. The Crown would have the power
even without the aid of Parliament of incorporating the EMl-
that
versities, which would, of course, be the case if the colleges
gave satisfaction. The measure was at present objected to,
because it did not comprise every thing which might here_
o ftoounthdesetpliaffraerte,eat creeds of
after be connected with it. These were the principles 012
lag
(Vi.i.rliciuchrwtthaelceesamofeltroelatnhde.
aconclusion,position con
os considering npog theu:ahteipooelrefi
they had a better chance of making that system of religious
education more acceptable to those whom it may me„.., mums._
Hie
tdh ee Iym professors,ici concern
mcoearryn trheattoiri
resort
professorstht
oeytwh those
sree
colleges.belongingto
Hon. Friend
said that no system of education could aiiswer un-
less it was founded on a religious basis, but he
should aslinit that religious instruction should ema-
nate from the Church of England. There were objec-
tions made by a high party in the Roman Catholic Church,
but still notw'Astanding these objections, notwithstanding the
opposition which by some portion of the laity was urged
against this plan, he (Sir Robert Peel) yet had reason to
think that there was a very considerable portion of intelligent,,
and respectable men of all persuasions who were disposed grate-
fully to accept the proposal of the Government, and they
trusted that experience would falsify the predictions which were
'urged against the measure. If they could carry on the system
which prevailed in the national schools, if they could unite the
youth of Ireland in one common system of education, he be-
lieved that they would go far to soften The asperities Which on
account of religious differences existed in social file
its
Ireland, they would alleviate the condition of the youth of
Ireland, they would lay the fotuntation of the development and
improvement of those natttrat and material resources with
which that country abounds, which had not been developed less
from the want of capitol than from the want of that industrial
and scientific knowledge which, combined with an instruction
in religion, it eras the object of the Government to bestow.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL said that he should say a. es
ihvaocsitlbset 6;xrpivlaanteataionnd opfubhliiscdtiiffeesr.ingiliferoEmngtlliisoisle
elizt3chattv_iohnonsillari
ens').;ted him to see thatthey, the Roman Catholics, had no.
a•
.11iPZ in the way of undermining to fear from their Protestant
stihtereszlee, toTthheartefrowmereeveorzespoerecthwothat
pointswas
fellow-countrymen. He was sorry to see that the present
Bill was brought in in its present skeleton shape; they learned
madeinannndtmheorneppwoi
which he felt strongly opposed to, and which he would Oppoi on a future occasion if they were not amended. He was allud-
inge
to the points contained in proviso in the 14th clause.
He thought there could he no opposition to something of this
kind, that persons when they entered the college should state.
what were the religious opinions they held. He thought there
could be no objection to that. He thought in endowing
chapels there was a great deal in what the Right Hon. Baronet
had said. He thought Ilpfpli the whole, with the alterations be
had endeavoured to suggest, the Government measure was a,
good one. He thought the Government should not hate the
power of appointing the professors, but as things now were it
would perhaps be better to leave the subject in the hands of the
Coeernment. He regretted that while the measure had been
brought forward the great evil of the exclusiveness of the Dub-
ha University should still exist.
Mr. SHAW rose amid laud cries of "Divide, divide ,•'
Ile (lid not entirely approve of the measure, but he had toot
beard one propose a better for it, and he had not a better to
propose himself. Ile thought, therefere, that he was not justi-
fied in refusing to give his assent to a measure brought forward
under the auepicee of the Government.—( Heer, hear.)
Sir tf. BLAKE would wee for the secons; reading, AY-though
let seas not satisfied with tote Bill in its present form.
'fhe House then divided, when there appeared—
For the motion .
Against it
Majority for the Second Reading —t":6s
POOR-LAW—SCOTLAND.
The Poorehnv Amendment (Scotland) Bill, was read a

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