The Sun.
London, England, 1845-05-20 00:00:00

BREACH OF PRIVILEGE.

The SOLICITOR-GENERAL begged leave to call
the attention of the House to a matter of importance
affecting the privileges of the House. The House would
of course understand that he alluded to the recent
recision in the Court of Queen's Bench in the
action of Howard against Gossett--Howard having
been taken into custody on the warrant of the Speaker,
issued by order of the House. It would be in the recol-
lection of the House, that in the year 1840, in conse-
quence of proceedings instituted by a person named
Stockdale against the Messrs. Hansard, the printers
to the House, it was considered necessary that
Howard, who conducted those proceedings as the
attorney of Stockdale, should attend at the bar to be
examined. Howard had notice to that effect, but he
did not attend or pay any respect to the notice. In
consequence of that contempt an order was made by
the House that be should be brought up in custody of
the Sergeant-at-Arms, and the Speaker's warrant was
issued accordingly. He was taken into custody upon
that warrant, and subsequently he brought an action
against the Assistant-Sergeant and others of the

officers for excess in the execution of the warrant.
The sole complaint against the officers was, that they
bad been guilty of excess ; and upon that complaint the
House came to the decision that the officers be per-
mitted to appear and plead to the action. They pleaded
accordingly ; the case came on for trial in the Court of
Queen's Bench, merely on the general issue of the de-
nial of the fact. The jury were of opinion that the
officers had been guilty of excess, and found a verdict
against them for 100/. That the 1001. and the costs were
paid by the House. In the year 1843, Mr. Howard com-
menced the action in question against the sergeant, and
communication of the fact was made by the Sergeant-at-
Arms to the House. His (the Solicitor-General)
Honourable and Learned Friend the Attorney• General
moved that the notice which had been given should be
printed, and on the following day he proposed to the
House that the Sergeant at-Arms should be at liberty
to plead to the action. That proposal gave rise to a con-
siderable debate. That debate was adjourned, and ulti-
mately the House came to the resolution that Sir W. Gos-
sett have leave to appear and defend the action brought
against him by Mr. T. B. Howard for trespass. After
that, the House agreed to another resolution, that Wil-
liam Bellamy have leave to defend the action brought
against him, and that the Attorney-General he directed
to defend Sir William :Gossett and William Bellamy.
Upon that authority several pleas were put on the
record in the action of Howard against Gossett; and,
stripping those pleas of their technicalities, the effect
was, that the imprisonment which had been com-
plained of was to be justified by the authority of the
Speaker's warrant. In those pleas there was a demurrer,
and on that demurrer an argument took place in the
Court of Queen's Bench, in the month of November
last. The Judges appeared to have entertained
very considerable doubt on the subject, for they took
time to consider their opinion, and did not deliver their
judgment until Thursday last. When they pronounced
judgment, the majority of the Judges were of opinion
that the pleas constituted no sufficient justification
of the complaint contained in the plaintiff's declaration.
In that judgment, however, Mr. Justice Williams dif-
fered from the majority of the Judges. But:of course it
would be premature to discuss that part of the subject
further until the whole of the proceedings were before
the House. However, it would be right of him to say
that the Judges, one and all, had stated that their
decision did not in any way refer to any of the
privileges of this House, but to the fact of the
Sergeant-at-Arms having exceeded the authority vested
in him by the House.—(Hear, hear.) Now he would
suggest that before the House took any proceedings in
reference to this subject, they should have before
them all the proceedings in reference to the trial,
and therefore he would move that copies of
the record and of the short-hand writers' notes
should be laid before it. It would be necessary that the
House should proceed upon the matter as speedily as
possible, in order to come to a determination. But in
the mean time he would state what the steps were
which the plaintiff could take. The plaintiff was
now at liberty to enter what was technically
called an interlocutory judgment, and then pro-
ceed to assess damages, first having served an eight-
days' notice. Now, as it was impossible to say how soon
the plaintiff might enter upon judgment, it would be
advisable that the House should proceed with as
little delay as possible, because, after the damages
had been assessed, the plaintiff might sue for
final judgment, and proceed to levy the damages on the
goods of the defendant. Under these circumstances he
(the Solicitor-General) felt a great degree of anxiety
upon the subject, and how necessary it would be for
the House to act promptly upon it. But at the same time
they should act with calmness and deliberation, and
take care:they had all the necessary materials for so doing
before them. He found, upon referring to the case of
Stockdale, that Lord CarnpOell, the then Attorney-
General, moved for a CommisL'ee of this House upon
that occasion ; and he (the Solicitor-General) did think
it would be extremely desirals.'e to follow a simi-
lar course on the present occasion, and therefore be
would be prepared to move a resolution to that effect.
And then he would propose, in the terriss of that res'olu-
tion, that a Select Committee should be appointeA, for
the purpose of inquiring into the proceedings in the
case of Howard and Gossett, and then to report their
decisions and observations thereupon to the House. He
(the Solicitor-General) would be pre Pared, in the
course of the evening, to lay on the tables of the House
the names of the proposed Committee, sot ',hat tha ,House
might come to a decision upon the subject:,

Lord HOWICK said that he did not object to the
motion of the Honourable and Learned Gentleman the
Solicitor-General, but he could not help saying that the
present position of the House realised the remarks
of the Hon. and Learned Member for Worcester (Sir T.
Wilde) on a former occasion. He said that when he re.
collected the weak and pusillanimous course which the
house had on a former occasion adopted, and were now
proceeding to adopt, he fund it only realising the opi-
nion expressed by that Hon. and Learned Gentleman :
They were dragged on step by step till they lost all their
privileges by their submissive concessions to the courts
of law.

Sir R. 11. INGLIS said that he had not intended to
have said one word upon that occasion, but when he found
the Noble Lord taunting the Legislature of the country
with pusillanimity and weakness, he for one could not
sit still in his place without replying to him. He (Sir
B. H. Inglis) was present in the Court of Queen's Beach,
and he could verify the assertion of the Noble and
Learned Gentleman, that the Learned Judges there did
not decide against the warrant as a warrant, but they ob-
jected to it that no specific object was mentioned in it.
If the observations of the Noble Lord were ;correct it
was suffi •icnt that the Sergeant-at- Arms should come
to the place and seize the first Peer of the realm. lie
hoped that the House would not have the pusillanimity
to deal otherwise with inferior persons. If the powers
of the House be good for Justice Coleridge and Justice
Denman, they were good for every Justice. If he wished to
struggle with the courts of law, he would bring the
Lord Chief Justice before the bar of the House, instead
of the sheriff, or any other ministerial officer. Every
other warrant specified the case and the time that the
person should remain in custody. The warrant did not
constitute such authority as they acted on in the name of
the Queen.

The motion was then put and carried.
MAYNOOTH.

Sirß. INGLIS presented petitions from several places
in England, Scotland, and Wales, against the grant to
Maynooth, and from several Presbyteries in Scotland,
which were signed on behalf of them by the moderators.
Mr. BANKES presented petitions from divers places
in Somersetshire, Wiltshire, and various other places,
against the grant.

-Lord BERNARD presented petitions from places in
Ireland to a similar effect.

Mr. PATTISON presented several petitions agains
the grant.

Afr. SHAW, from Dublin and other places to a like
eff: ct.

Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD presented petitions
from several places in the north of England against the
grant, one signed by 20,000 people, and he thought it
would be right to state the prayer cf this petition. The
petitioners stated that they were opposed to all State
grants, and especially to the present, because it would tend
to the endowment of the Catholic priesthood. At the
same time they expressed their strong dislike to the
Established Church in Ireland, which had been sustained
against the feelings of the people.
Sir Thomas Spry, Mr. Palmer, Mr. Stuart Wortley,
and Lord Castlereagh, presented petitions from various
places in England and Ireland to a similar effect.

- Sir R. PEEL presented petitions from Limerick and
other places in favour of the grant.
Mr. HINDLEY presented a great number of petitions
from various places in England against the grant.
Sir 11. llalford, Mr. Darby, Mr. Duncan, and Colonel
Wood presented petitions against the grant.
An HON. MFIIIBER (whose name we could not learn)
presented a petition from Mimmouth, signed by 38 people,
out of a population of 30,000, against the grant.
Mr. PACKE presented petitions from Dissenting con-
gregations in several places to a similar effect.
Sir T. FREMANTLE presented a petition from Tun-
bridge Wells and other places in favour of the grant.
Mr. C. BRUCE presented a petition from Elgin and
other places against the grant.
ACADEMICAL EDUCATION (IRELAND).
Lord J. RUSSELL--I wish to ask the Right Hon.
Baronet at the head of the Government what day he
would name for the second reading of the Bill for Acade-
mical Education in Ireland ?

Sir R. PEEL—I cannot exactly define the day upon
which the second reading of that Bill will be introduced,
but at the conclusion of the debate on the Maynooth
question I will name the day.
Mr. EWART said he hail a notice on the paper in
reference to this question, which was to this effect :
On the third reading of the Maynooth College Bill, to
move that, while it is expedient to open all the
public educational establishments of Ireland to the
Catholics, to reduce to its due dimensions the Irish
Church, and to establish entire civil and religious
equality between Great Britain and Ireland, it is not
advisable to extend the principle of making any religious
denomination endowed by and dependent on the
State. In bringing forward this motion he begged to
assure the Right Honourable Baronet opposite, and the
Hon. Members on that side the House, that while he
was in favour of the most liberal and extended system
of education to all denominations of Christians, he was
opposed to any religious endowment by the State
of any institution. And now, aahen this question was
coming before that House for a final decision, he
did think it but just to those out of doors, who were
opposed to it, to have their opinions and feelings ex-
pressed. He had the honour of differing from the opi-
nions of the Hon. Member the representative of the
University of Oxford upon this question, and also
from the Right Honourable Gentleman the Recorder
of Dublin and the Recorder of London. The standard
they had raised bore a device far too exclusive for him.
Their line of march was separate and distinct. Its uni-
formity and consistency might be described in the words
of Milton—

" Anon they move
In perfect phalanx to the Dorian mood
Of flutes and soft recorders; all the while
Sonorous Oxford blowing martial sounds'

He hoped the Hon. Member for Oxford University would
pardon him for this allusion ; but he felt compelled to
say that though he differed from him on many points in
reference to this question, be agreed with him only on
the principle that it was not wise to endow religious
establishments. He did not mean to say he was opposed
to existing endowments, but he was opposed to their ex-
tension, whether that extension was to be made to May-
nooth or to any other institution, for he did think that
all theological establishments should be left to themselves.
He did not admire any Government interference with
matters of religion, and the success which the Go-
vernment had met with on a former memorable occasion,
when the Right Honourable Baronet the Secretary
of State for the Home Department introduced his
Factory Bill, furnished an ample proof of the
inutility of advocating mixed theological and political
questions. He doubted, therefore, the wisdom of
agitating questions which involved the subject
of religion, and this was the reason why he
now differed from the Government on the
question of an endowment to MaynJoth. Such
a course might have been in place some forty or
fifty years ago, but there was a new spirit abroad now.
He believed that a purer principle actuated the people
than the principle of endowments—he meant the volun-
tary principle. The voluntary principle manifested its
truth to the minds of the people of this country, and it
now occupied the place which the pr:nciple of eisdow-
men ts did at a former period. This fact was proved by
what had taken place in two of the Established
Churches of this country. It was owing to the increase
of the voluntary principle, that the Free Church in
Scotland had separated itself from the parent establish-
ment; nor was it less owing to the insinuation of voluntary
principles into England, that Tractarianism had diffused
itself in Oxford, and extended its influence over the country.
A change had come over the spirit of the country,
which called on that House to legisl tte in conformity,
with it, but he was told that this system was not a sys-
tem of endowment, but simply an act of
restitution. He would like to know what in this
case was meant by the phrase " act of restitution."
Was the Church of Ireland asked to restore to the Ca-
tholic Church what she had taken from her ? .No.
This was tobe exacted from the people of this country—
it was to be taken out of the Consolidated Fund. He
should not oppose any principle of restitution,
but this was not so. He thought that, if they took
from the superfluities of the Irish Church it would
be well, but instead of doing so, they deducted this
something from the necessities of the English people.
It was an anomaly to call on the people of this country
to contribute from their hard-earned labour to the ex-
tension of religion, when that Church, which was now
almost the mockery, as it had long been deemed
the disgrace of this country, possessed so much wealth.
That was the course which he, for one, would have pre-
ferred ; and he begged to ask Right Hon. Gentlemen
opposite what course they intended to pursue ? He
asked, did they mean to make their stand upon this Bill,
or to extend the principle so far as the endowment
of the Roman Catholic clergy?—(Hear, hear.) He
believed that they would give dissatisfaction to the Pro-
testant portion of the United kingdom, and that they
would at the same time give no satisfaction to the Roman
Catholics.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord the
Member for London had said that he was prepared
to carry out the genuine principle of endowment,
and to give salaries to the Catholic clergy out of the
Consolidated Fund. The Hon. and Learned Member for
Edinburgh echoed the sentiment.—(Hear, hear.) The
Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Home
Department thought that he also was in favour
of the endowment of the priests. But the
Right Honourable Baronet at the head of the
Government maintained a prudent silence on the sub-
ject.—(Hear, hear.) He believed that the spirit
of endowment had passed away, and that a
purer spirit—that of the reformation and of primitive
Christianity had taken its place.—(Hear, hear.)
He as willing to aid in measures of
the largest liberality to Ireland, to compensate
for past oppressions. But he did not think this measure
was calcalated to do so, and therefore, not wishing to
prolong the debate, he concluded by moving according
to notice.

Mr. MARSLAND seconded the motion. He fully
admitted the wrongs and oppressions which the Irish
nation had suffered under the domination of a more
powerful country,; but he did not think that a
further extension of the bad principle of that
endowment would do anything to ameliorate the pre-
sent condition of the people, or to compensate for their
past wrongs. He disclaimed all feeling of hostility to
his fellow Catholic subjects—be disclaimed all participa-
tion in the " No Popery'. hear.) But what
he asserted was, that while they were applying what
were called remedial measures in Ireland, they were put-
ting on blisters upon -England ; in fact, they were not
laying the axe to the root of the evil in Ireland, while
they were creating ill-feeling and in England.
It had been said the Dissenters were inconsistent in re-
ceiving the Regiunt Donum and raising the cry that had
been raised against the grant to the College of May-
nooth. If
.the assertions that bad been made were true,
the Dissenters would certainly have been most incon-
sistent ; but there were many of them that objected as
Strongly as_any denomination could do to tho receipt of
the Regiunt Donum. Acting on those opinions, he should

------------
me
vote against the third reading of the Bill when it ca m°
before the House, and he would do so on the same2ol;
lbO
ciple with that evowed by the Hon. Member : W
fries, namely, that the Church should not. be p o
by the State.
jecis°
Mr. EWART said that he had justified the pr
sigh
H:ln'ih,ee gallery was wpraoscetehdentooarddeirveis,liotno.be cleared, but the
on which he intended to vote, and.he would not, re 1,11,
the opinion of a majority of Hon. Members, Press the
division.—(We understood that during our absence
amendment had been negatived.) f which
Mr. BAN ES, in proposing the amendment 01 , eine
he had given notice, " that the Bill be read a third
its
that day six months," which was tantamount to ioi„ be
being read at all, begged for the indulgencet I_oo
House, particularly as he would request their ae tea,llt
to some previous portions of the debate, and li trltii.
perhaps, the more think himself entitled to the Rouse,
gence, that he had not hitherto addressed the rijon,
but had readily given way to " the grouPs'' ? their
Members who had risen on every night to exPlaili the
votes to their constituents.—(Hear.) He had
there
more readily assented to this, beeauris rote.
was no necessit7
ed for himself explaining,' 110 him'
He said this, not because he assum !,ed tO
self any degree of merit, or because he 111170 bed
throw any imputation on those Hon. Members° goo
acted otherwise than he did. He would asks
ueobose
under what circumstances this question was l'eti 01'
fore them, and by what means the measure h
vanced to its present stage. He would ask if tbierernpsirr'
rity who voted for the second reading of the 1314 Hoed
sented a majority of the country. The Pgatbai
Baronet at the head of the Government hadd win
that the feelings of the people of England ant r her
were most repugnant to this measure--.ls_,ichts
what he had anticipated, and the result to which
Right Hon. Baronet had come was, that in Preoty to
to the t
strength of that opinion, it became his 1000,0
increase his energies and exert the power ill t the Or
the First Minister of the Crown, to carry ouvrome DI;
sure. His lion. Friend the Secretary for the ''''be thre,
ipnatrotniehnet cs•cearrleiedaghaiisn
setffothrtes
rsetouplier,urther, fete rof el :
the nanic'eeool
weight, and popularity of his Sovereign. Irseciiiat lle°°.o
there to enter into a controversy with the t` et, so;
Baronet as to his authority as Home Seeretararr,et 11°4
use of this power. He admitted that thet_yoursa„„
Baronet had precedent for the oeurse he tro'retas'l'l,
but the only authority that he (Mr. Ball'a osroseir
bered as a precedent, was of the Right 11°13" .0 fel),
own making. He remembered that, oh, to
„..1
occasion, the same course was resorted rifeer)„,,
the same Right Honourable Gentletna, to to
el.'s" Off'
and the name of the Sovereign was then usc- alai is•
the balance. It would be a great relief tois or al4,
Bankes) if he found that, by any rniscooce,Poed to gm' 0
representation, her Majesty had been Diu% leol‘l9
her sanction to this measure. He could h 0 or
the question as already decided, for he to thedeo,
though the House might not be entitled neWined a not
pellation of a representative, they still rerpso itelOcre,
berative body. He believed that, in re e. der. hi
particulars, his Right Hon. Friends had b was -silos&
Tiny had no idea of the repugnance that •,• ille°sjea
the people of this country and Scotland to tr! 0 dew'
He gave his Right Hon. Friend full credit nog 10.04
to confer a boon on the people of Ireland,' lima fOw to
lieved that they had been mistaken. The leen mons- 01
this measure was a general one ; and it wssosses,s,t6roof
suppose that it had been confined to the roehiu;heer
England and Scotland. It was notbecause the
that '-flit
the Church of England had been quieseenffeitots tio
fore they were to be considered as intetell;et;
Right Hon. Friend had formed a verYicau'slis ale-he
of the Established Church with respect o'o naielin to
Let the Right Hon. Baronet look to a petittcn isetil4Lett
appeared in the newspaper of that morning, , his diet-
agTaihnestEtahrisl
(B)fil
the Lord Bishop of Cashel, from the clergy ei i
are'
Mr. BANKES—Oh, a good many.
LINCOLN—How many sign°
The Earl of LINCOLN—Not many: ,4 of 168'0
Sir H. W. BARRON—Signed by Dille 43" etiti°lo
Mr. BANKES continued—At any rate thegy 003
signed by a very respectable portion of the eggoa; oti
The roe ,4
diocese of Cashel and Waterford.
Learned Gentleman the Member for -Thilrtfjoatilia
called them " fanatical insurgents ; butlmts-trircoe.
Learned Gentleman's genius frequently 1,"'",) faulnata,',
judgment and discretion. He (Mr. 13arliloa he uffr fel'
curred in the prayer of the petition to vi,a'irse-. cbtlo
ferred, and he should support it in that 0° alO 00
too° • gen
it as an honourable compliment to be en,, oe Dlsoab
petitione:of many of the Dissenters• at Seta se
had no desire to destroy or disturb t °desire obe
Church. They were on 13! actuated by w 5 bich °ILI fat
vent the spread of a religious opinion, gouriop. t,
lieved to be anti-scriptural. The lielinteblislra4
Sheffield had indeed attacked the Church nd astl7t the
but he had found himself in a dilemma, asexcerd i cote
from meeting the Hon. Member for:',hefol? Ao
time he proposed. The Hon. Member f
„'„ coo trosi,
stilted the heads of his own party,
him no satisfactory advice, and he then,,aisin res
itrist
but tn_y it ossioro
consulted the Cabinet, who could give,, Pii 3103;06
either ; and he had recourse to the sa°o'fshat° 00
Nestor geobe,hr: 04"
Montrose, who was, it seemed, the
seeing that he was always consulted by
..‘ 1. dor
found themselves in difficulty.—(Laughteitiie o°,llo
vice of the Hon. Member for Montrose wa„sif volt nog
went of the motion; " For," said he, __and 117.1111
abandon your motion, or postpone it, the see whioaol
of the Bill will be lost." This was the wsa):,ifficaltil this
Hon. Member for Sheffield got out of hi "
Billthat
was
ss
smuggled
:g.alyedinth
against the Maynooth Bill had been saltt of the. 01
and in Scotland, what must be considered_vi ino.olo
pressiou of public opinion be Ireland? 1:1'
the o°lo
whichrongh
tthlice
isecrooun!ed Illendipacitjegallito,
messenger that had been sent there with
a_;00. ih,,,
tidings returned ? Had be come back bl'i.arci rbeL
hand the olive branch of peace ? ' that Sod
turned to tell the English
he ,on 0
Royal mistress could set her WI eoOA,
Irish shore in safety and in peace ? These (1111140.eri
would leave to be answered as best the Mialf 14d I
In reference to many of the petitions whicth piss
presented by the Dissenters against the gralt„resailj
admit there were many unsound and harsh
but yett;
with regard to the Roman Catholic religion,
su,ioasitirts
authority for the use of these unusual exPretntes al of
nated from no less - a source than the std
e,eartlaes
House itself. They were to be found on the rt; sTO
the reign of King William 111., and as Icrloyedl4
words stood, the Dissenters ought not to have emplorpii
attached to them or receive any blame ills bsi 7,,A,
them. He did not believe that those petition . _01(7
laid on the table with the intention of insulting (1); no 0
ing the Irish people ; and he regretted as de_rjjesl. ae
man the manner in which they had been acutry for_Lis
was induced to give every credit to the gisleoshns
good will which they intended to offer to the `,isfik-or
by means of the Maynooth Bill ; but he felt salreetli the
the majority of the Irish Prot. 8t tilts were atileo the
posed to it, and the measure would not affyl.o onipg
least satisfaction.—(flea.r.) The discussl° 10004
original Maynooth grant had been graduallYereetPer
year after year, and something of a tacit agreso Ilegfore.,
been given to the privilege which had beein, „ow '',olo
joyed; and for this annual income the Biu -se vela
the House had been proposed as a substitute.
ads of le,
propose that the amount be paid out of the futo pelf
Irish Church, and not out of the pockets of the rr
The Rassing of the Bill would not put an eawu he 0010
tagonistic demands of the Protestants. -1-`' trod
went had been placed in an awkward positiell' iodairs
was satisfied that those members who had beano its:or
to give their unwilling assent to the measure
(01 to or
introduction, if they unhappily continued for 101
port it through its third reading, w°lll-anel iriiil
after regret the infelicitous pledge -00 for
bound themselves to give in its favour. ;,,ste,,A
Members had acted altogether in a fair and str?Jerfecti
ward manner on the question. They had not 1044
in the slightest degree with its progress ,„ he
waited patiently and in silence, and invariabkrforl js
with joy the grant as the dawning of a new etllo4o;sti
land. Now that they had seen what the conenleviantrr.
was proposed to be, it was easily to be disc The rog
what the termination must be.—(Hear, hear.).th Otto
centers had combined to oppose this grant Vi; unto
determination they were capable of, and wit cif is
power they could muster, and they stood not al,--roogA,
field, for the Established Church, who were A,9"00 0:0
arms, were allied with them against it. From Wsb rd
siderations it was apparent that the Mar° etat)el
could net be regardd merely in the light of an a
of mone but it meust be taken and considerelisiath
blow struck, against the spread of the Protestantle
01
and against th foundation of the constitution.orj A,;
It was singular how little had been heard of the d t 1 ro
establishment of the College of Maynooth, 013,,aerhs
existed a great deal of ignorance as to the n37101:4
which the question had been formerly entertained ris
Irish House of Parliament. It had been discuss rely;
after year in that Heuse; and from the genemsaer '
he could have expected more detailed reasons fo„116501/0:;
tablishment of the college than were given in
_rdeat.,o
bates. He had recently discovered a condensed fi-seiPI,A,
of the proceedings of the Irish House of Cowmen-Par ! !
it existed on this matter. It was written by ~, Rebel
man, an honourable man, whose statements couluboshi
pended on, and were no doubt correct,. He pa, as,
his statements a year subsequently to the proceeusipper,
the session of the Irish Parliament, when a Bill h lig tr,
introduced fsr the education of persons professiese FA • :
Roman Catholic religion, and for power to Po Ass brjr
truing lands. It appeared that a clause ha'postee
introduced at the end of the Bill fot inAt Or,
to give the trustees of Maynooth the sum of Luvvhfoar
of the public money. This Bill was passed.ot"geillt;
both Houses, and became established as law. floto ea;
ber of either House considered it worth white -ltstrof
any opposition, as they did not suppose the tors .
formed an essential part of the Bill. The prhiecwa th°l
the scheme, seeing the success which had atteleici.orra
endeavours, were determined not to let the POI: pr?,
off on such easy conditions, but soon afterwor°,' aoir", !
posed an increase to the grant, amounting, in the failed'
to nearly 40,0001. This effort, however, signally .„-oti,4
but the original grant of 8,000/. had been contitie,4". irs
be paid. A regular account of the items of the rid or
and expenditure of the College had been demandci bceil
given, when it appeared that not one penny 113( stlY,
received from any Roman Catholic for its • the.
port. The real facts of the matter were', tvn i i
the establishment at Maynooth was a schera' ertt`
maintain and educate 2,000 Roman Catholic priest is i°
a certain sum was set apart for bringing up etude° ioiti .:
their noviciate. None of the Roman Catholic pilot!
were ever admitted into the college, which was in -both
nothing less then a monastery. Many Members o`.4ioa.
Houses espressed their disapprobation of this ins'it". tlil '
The Parliament had been inclucA to establish it !lel
exhibition of great cunning, as it originally bau di; --
tomplated only the maintenance of an institution Pi et 9 ' !
education of the Roman Catholic youth in genera bold.
not for the priests in particular. The Roman Y.a bet
laity did not contribute anything to its support, le,i'orit 'Pt
knew the college did not require their assistance. '

Ihe conceived it might easily be urged in consonance
with just reason and equity. The seventh article of the
union provided for the amalgamation of the two coun-
tries by religious concessions and charitable endowments.
The question, therefore, became narrowed to the one,
whether that amalgamation should be effected under the
principles agreed on. Whether they would make a
grant to which they were solemnly pledged, and to go
farther—to make a grant commensurate with the re-
iiiiirernents of an increasing population. And why
should they not ? They had given the Presbyterians en
endowment for their church, they had given to the Dis-
senters a regitem &mum, they hid joined the Prussian
Church on the faith of a convention, and were they to
refuse to Ireland, the poorest, the most needy of
them all, that measure of justice and assistance
which they had unhesitatingly accorded to others? They
owed a debt of justice to Ireland, not only upon con-
tracts of political—not upon grounds of expediency or
conciliation, or past neglect, but upon the positive merits
and services of Ireland. The Irish had claims upon
England in regard for services such as no other people
had surpassed, services in war, whether rendered by her
army or her navy, services which seconding those of
England had secured her present glory and the safety
of her monarchy ; and for such services she claimed and
merited the common justice of England ; and while ad-
verting with pride and admiration to the services of Ire-
land, he would express his disbelief of the libel put for-
ward by the pretended friends of that country, that if
an opportunity occurred, they would not, as heretofore,
stand forth the champions of the British Crown. That
libel he scouted with disgust ; but be it remembered, it
was a libel not put forth by any Saxon, and he would
leave it to its publisher to answer fur it to the Irish peo-
ple.—(Cheers.) Protestantism was in England con-
nected with ennobling associations ; but how had the
Catholics of Ireland known it ? They had known it
only as the religion of those who imposed persecution
and injustice upon them, who framed a treaty only to
violate and abjure it—who enacted a penal code to
shackle and oppress them. Such, till lately, the
Protestant Church had been recognised in Ire-
land ; happily a brighter period had arisen—a gene-
ration had sprung up evincing a spirit of kindliness,
instead of that bitter animosity which had previously
to emancipation characterised and disgraced the country.
It was most important that the Irish Roman Catholics
should not misapprehend the present feeling of Eng-
land towards them, nor mistake the ripple that dis-
turbed the river, for the tide which characterised the
ocean ; and he would impress upon them the truth,
that no longer English tyranny but Irish agitation was
the barrier to improvement in that country.—(Cheers.)
He was generally disinclined to impress his opinions on
the House, and his difficulties were now increased by
those which surrounded the question.—(Hear, hear.)
He had, however, thought it his duty, fear-
lessly to assert his present conviction, and
never did he urge an opinion or give a vote more in
consonance with his sense of duty towards his consti-
tuents, his country, and with the dictates of his con-
science. He gave that vote in favour of a measure
which he regarded as the precursor of civil and religious
liberty in a more extended and truthful sense. In the
hope and confident belief that it was calculated to silence
complaint and allay division, and if the course, of which
it appeared the earnest, were carried out in all its ful•
ness and perfection, he anticipated confidently the time
when, without the acerbities of past injustice or the
pangs of too just remorse, the two countries would with
sincerity be addressed as " The United Kingdom
of Great Britain and Ireland."—(Loud cheering )
Captain MANGLES felt that in the present case all
the facts and arguments were in favour of this
measure.—(Hear.) It was said that they ought to
govern Ireland upon Protestant principles. He repudiated
such a doctrine, although he was as zealous a Protestant
as lived. •He thought they ought not to deprive Ireland
of those associations and that religion which their an-
cestors had bequeathed to them. He believed that the
Protestant Irish Church, instead of strengthening itself
by grasping at everything, was weakening its structure
in the greatest degree. For three hundred years the
Protestant Church in Ireland had had in its hands the
whole endowments of that Church, and yet what was it
now? Far less influential than it was three hundred
years ago. It was, in fact, a Church supported by an
army of 20,000 men, in order that the ministers of
it might enjoy their benefices. He believed the
Church of Ireland was the principal grievance
of the Irish people, and was one of the great causes of
the crimes that were committed in that country. He did
not see how the Dissenters could object to the grant, be-
cause they ought to remember their ancestors partici-
pated in the spoliation of the people of Ireland. They
ought to be content, as he was, to put their hands into
their pockets, in order to afford but a poor restitution for
the injuries that had been done to the people of Ireland.
He had heard Honourable Gentlemen speaking with
astonishment of the ingratitude of the people
of Ireland. What, he would ask, was the course
pursued by this country towards them but that
of merely mitigating injustice. And were the
people of Ireland to be grateful for that ? It was in
vain to expect that the Irish people would be grateful
unless they were accorded a full and entire measure of
justice--dealing it out by instalments would never do.
He had heard with regret comparisons drawn between
the religion of their Roman Catholic brethren and
idolators. He had heard that religion likened to Ma-
hometanism, Hindooism, and other systems of idolatrous
worship. But, much as he deprecated such comparisons,
he would say, had the Government of this country taken
in former times the endowments of the 'Mahometans or
Flindoos of India, and applied them to the support of the
Christian Church, he should feel justified in acting to-
wards them in the same way as he would act towards the
people of Ireland. If they had power to restore to the
people of Ireland their endowments, then he should cer-
tainly support it, but as they had not that power, he
would join with the Government in supporting the grant
to meynooth as an instalment of justice to the people of
Ireland.

the last session of the Irish Parliament, a measure had
b introdutal to make a grant of something less than
; it was passed through' the Commons, but was
eventually thrown out in the Lords. It was a no-
torious fact that thirty of the students of •the
Maytiooth institution joined the rebellion in '9B.
A visitation of Trinity College was made in the same
Year, and it was ascertained that 17 of the students were
found to be implicated. Thus there were 17 students
from Trinity, whilst the students at Maynooth were re-
duced to 69. It was true that this was given on the
authority of a partisan, and that it appeared in a tract
written for the purpose of facilitating the union, but it
sufficiently showed how grievously the principle which
W,as adopted at the establishment of Maynooth had been
departed from, and how different was this from the en-
dowment which had now been so much spoken
or during the debate on this question. The es-
tablishment of Dunboyne was altogether on a different
footing. Much, too, had been said of restitution during
this debate; but lie would ask to whom was this restitu
!ion to be made? Was it to be made to the monastic
institutions from whom the property was said to have
been taken? In Spain, during the time the Inquisition
ilas in full power, such a principle might be advocated.
kut in France and every other country where the
9M, an Catholic religion was exercised with moderation,
be a principle would never be allowed; and he should
eit" astonished if the enlightened monarch now seated on
e French throne should ever make such a declaration.
'Then, some years ago, the project wes mowed for ad-
ilittit.t!ng members of the Romaa Catholic religion to the
%Plat Parliament., a friend of his, whose opinion was
triwasthentitled to much weight, had pointed to Belgium;
in a publication out of doors and on the benches
LI that House had said that he had been present in do-
bates of that august assembly, wherein he had seen the
seated
of Catholic Belgium and of Protestant Holland
Irted together ins a
deliberation under a Protestant
si°„4,,,a,reh, where the interests of -both parties were
til-e-v7ilY considered. This observation, which ho be-
‘es' bad great influence at the time, was made in
land-Prang of 1899, and in the autumn' of 1830, 1101-
th__,TeMoylieglieelgium were separated.—(Hear, hear.) When
'tens? ecl,as of Maynooth was first founded it was in-
ageneral academy, and not as was represented
lel5IY monastic institution. And if the plea were to
ei„t lowed that it was to be conducted on the same prin-
is Plea as oth d • • stitutions of the Roman Catho-
de Church the critic in
veeivte , same objection still held. For if the Uni-
ity or
be:, .Oxford had been conducted on these exclu-
e4ages where, he would ask, would Wickliff have
etee-; and if the German Universities had been con-
tea with similar customs, where would Luther have
keo v"? But such was not the case, for it was well
mew. n that laymen as well as those intended for the
iiigjittiV were admitted to those institutions. The
I.lnesti• .ea• Baronet hail stated that this came as no new
Intetil/nsfor he had in the middle( flast session stated his
ilotth,°ail to bring in some measure to improve May-
that but this was no improvement where everything
,e,iaittetrigaod about the grant of previous years was
Stios'il the present Bill—when all its connexion with
we
hi v`7, Was done away with, or when at least the only
that we° Prevented entire separation was the money
lattroneaa, to be paid. How was it that the Right Hon.
Oppoie? during his nine year.' seat on the
ori4in•,,lo+.
benches had not proposed to double the
nissr7p•iint? There was little doubt but that the Mi-
ivish; 7711 in power would have readily acceded to his
that "e had had the power himself of doing that in
the hi.„°llse at any mo nent. It had been truly said that
Bothleaded of this question was not perceived, for it ex-
its
the whole endowment of the Catholic Church.
kazi reeigit hexceeded the height of their cathedral spires,
liheeeaed to the throne itself. If this grant was made
leeees ald tell that any thing should- prevent a Catholic
gotten` to to the throne? This was no idle or fantastic
"hose •-•;(Rear, hear)—for the Member for Newark, for
st„Pdgment the highest respect was entertained,
•qs w'ed that which amounted to the same opinion.
Wel %id aid what was so beautifully told in the beau-
saWQr(lB hthe t.l -
_pa__ 0 e poet, after s sing passage where
Thousands had sunk on the ground overpower'd,
, there weary to rest, and the wounded to die,
f`tti were goes on to show that when the Irish and Eng-
•ertaes'e !Sing indiscriminately on the battle field, the
INSgtit
Yo said to the latter, " Change Kings, and we will
.1111 over azain." So he would say to the Right
trn
o,earronet, di;sol re the Parliament and they would fight
* and check mate his kings with their pawns.
10 ou a .
e the , remind the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary
itts 11°,ne
flonsDepartment of his own conduct during his
at 61 6UPPOrt of the Reform Bill ; and as he knew the Was useless to beseech him to listen to the voice
might ehratrY, he would defy him to dissolve. They
ott4,, b at the section with whom he acted in that
ta Y
ut he (Mr Bankes) well knew that they had the
1•
1a
th with th
e the Billm,be an
read that dayd with that isi x mpressionmonths he should
,i
at)
tiTaidesave_ GEACHY said that, after the most earnest
ijtesitaCni of the measure, he had come to the
tags g determination of supporting the third
4711%e e would do so because this was a measure
es eta most distorted vision could not torture into an
JagtO tree.
to Ireland. It was truly a measure
eit-ce• The G ernment, it was true,
oV
• faaer difficulties, and the principal of them
Nil the repugnancy of certain persons
as s• iksateligious Measure. As a Protestant, however,
s,,Si7etaner of the Constitution, he could find no
cristianl he should deny equal justice to his fellow
these Bof the Raman Catholic faith ; and, actuated
..E.itiport
_principles, he felt imperatively called upon to
7tl the measure. True, the Church of England
4ind "!aurch of Rome was in error, but he found no
of •
Au, to'dieU3tiee that would empower the Church of
betwith. .rbitipr the benefits of education to the sister
aever",b, ese char no question of theological opinion
show million -',",ses- It was a question of justice to
land wentnt that, '"eir countrymen. Experience had
people had,
And stir I • been alto as far as the Church. of Eng-
eY It was ;Other unprovided with instruction;
lags should bow time that the real church of that
be eseat edueetioa e employed in disseminating the bless-
llse;wnded, „„'",,•,_ It was only by this that truth could
°Y this mode only could the benefit of
severe sai be i
ch
went of this in Ireland. He thought the
seat than well 4.'18 country had a right to assist one
,pre ne mai, 8. another, and surely it was self-evident
010 them ericat
anoubtd superiority of the Irish Catholics
ha d •
twear,„ „ e right to that assistance. He
begothe J Ine House by enlarging on these facts,
4), th 3" the spirit in which much of the oppo-
Lir,: the hie, mess spirit
had been carried on he should
tas
Pointing
isasionauces that, out to its opponents some
• He
wOught to modify their zeal on that
solzabeth, wow not refer them to the cruel statutes
nisdeZcatiom Ind the subsequent Acts by which
lttitatie„ seobodtotnan Catholic children were for-
the paros, .bOL point out particularly to their
then e,nal Acts of .Anne ; but he had merely
:il:14;1M had k_oecause, despite of the numerous pe-
1, ee`glitost as",en presented to that House, he believed
thi:iltqa•sau;lelef.hat a new feeling had sprung up in
s,fB.•s sotrant ass. Ing of desire to do justice to Ireland.
.yarrow2l '',l.labeil',7-`,,ed at all, he conceived it should be
oqy, grog tL Los he could not conceive any greater
It Wahatuan these annual and mischievous dis-
dt „Sa tr, this as the nature of the opposition which
17t1 the'tote Bar measure ? A coalition between the
rte ire r‘stiPpoaternet his Friend the Member for Oxford
to G,ae sittniars of the voluntary principle did appear
o~ark Ili whit anomaly. He could not but remark
444,4 upea
~ the opponents to the measure had
late;
tix, sing.
tithe Members who supported it. He
ON (INN" protest against a circular emanating
,?ald
_very 1 Anti-Maynooth Committee, as con-
itil.talen;!tiet eatlettionable morality indeed ; and he
ie st; with °. J two extracts from it to show the
N, oaePertc. /%°,1,„,e,h, they regarded the measure and
stastir two "fie honourable Member then
aliosin .The
to support his statement.)
alas g that the Antlaynooth Committee
th it
ger that
48t! to:tt
_tnglish gentlemen and Members of
taitlNitlrPosse tiZtt.ed conscientiously, what right had
tittilt.°4, %laced v, any representation would have af-
-4108 ita hoped to to change those conscientious
tere thea.e4toti, Cu' ln approacing the consideration
kittPita coos )?-tenabers of that House would con-
t,ohliset he
enfuscience rather than the dictation at-
ilt!" hi t bPo °ed by the o
tiztahs pre ntlas opponents of. the measure;
41 test to branch of the discussion, he would
rigorltl.twaera,lttahbei assumption which those oppo-
til4tAa itatualature
%et 1.4%,1' the ti y advanced, that a pledge had
Inaer.o_ti'etebeir election by each Member
ef-,,,,,ti0n the increase of the grant.the
;441 ,el3l, Positive en " wholly untenable, either on
-141 "ien de gagement or equivocal implication.
144zial°Ittenethtoet eb:°ghering such imaginary compact,
atnerW emus, one just, one Christian
ate the social condition of as vast
qti of the
h te the . e empire.—(Hear, hear.) If hot esii3, Principles of their adversaries, how
etMt halt taptsiense of moderation would they not
hisht.st Minister had stated that he would
tltittlit°lsh: yena"lldren to the care of a polar bear or
wskjea, pa. Such to to the guardianship of the Eng-
tof olthear:dth similar expressions had been
hi n rem; ayooothetn remember that it was not the
ough indeed worthy of the
ts 2 tts eally Protestant Establishment. The
s%toaarn . given b •
la-sttiliitast est y its opponents appeared to sat, hey ad avour of the measure and the line
tt'stlta pled tending rather to' disarm than
arlinain44,lll &Ili:It/lee. Let them remember the
ttoy44'qtetit,,:i9s,ths,'en, when first introducing the
otti_tatit
B.the dissiet_irt Iseas a wise foundation,calculated
tsZ.a iteituittettliclitsiguuttg.ctentd!lderients of Irish society.
c)f I.°ll Worth he speak of the founda-
}, of the country that would
41,„"Etnta Institut'
01), .441 of the lon commensurate with the in-
‘titi vast Roman Catholic population,
-4 With Paltr
41'10 !trowel' grant of 9,000/. doled out grudg-
Nkikaltil td disgust ? Was it not rather in-
lbit were from which the benefits of
i/thBft: r, h to flow for the advantage of
14titeit Dieo!'l/41.4 _eat) One argument against' the
4),tl,Nta of te„i. 'd
with shame and sorrow, it was
44 th
„ins
sestet were taken from the very
yttt„ka ,_t and that the fare they got at
maeem'i hog good' as whist they were accus-
'3' of Could not conceive how
'4l c' A • ileati Christ'
%lesosea,_ eat ess_ lan men it could be objected
of x,„ s.antiany apostolical. was unmerited
th‘th' (4144-To 'Moth. it
k -eh , vat was an important (pies-
Los 014 ast ,on lookines at thedegraded
,s;hastile tttnost teimufacturin
d
Protestant r.ur
ittiZst bitehios,S7, oharactergoeaanch districts, d
Christian Church,
Ilt, is:tglar7d" the
or that Church as estsi.•
Roman Catholic
kaliitt,}ll fre`l tho.' a few the
y ,t 1,4
enurear,i7.ine England',c proscribed
rtlVic ,:%qth"' and would withdraw
NiBt},s le :4Ptti the ea
oPeei°aPhil
genee fui- they would
either
thantehhiera
sectariantmh au
et,
h metuo
orl der
attue! throu
)44:4-t—Nrat.7te
ecluhe talinisters of their faith,
ehtiitibto,__,
at
the qupstion as one of state
•°‘ heiee lM Still, than 'on the 'ground of
On that point also,

f 168.0
t'tie° 01
of ,
oote
boa
sins 01
oosA
rirese:
Novo to
b fell
ge
d I°lo
01104
ire
be.
e 1
h wh
7t 01
:o-
_A,.
blisl3l;t3t
tbe
ora ,a colr
efio ,;fe
• ,a
eat'
▪ oellicl
.
00 r'
iSelleool6
o.°
,per.
• Tb•or
be
a• baft-oos
yos do {
and b 7,01
altP
ffice oco
din.
ie
• d
fe
is Vg
oc the to
f h oriool
,0
the 5, P:
L 16144.-44;
[Ad 01,
bat 10
t no oOa
cii? obi;
iCh iinfe
"
P 459011
oAl';etir
bat
ressiel: Of
be reu 110
long 0,000
ye 011401
' etnr bee
or od,A,
one
:iog or
Olt
leePaed. she
svor fopreopo
i▪ r!,fiecl tho
t sstl' 019'0
re gre be
iroru die t
oe
„sloe 5010'1
utily Le,otb6,,
Mgre r"0
„
en 5° 100, 001
,re
ate. of
ie 9
Asis
fun „poy,it,
r
„f the the - A to
CO
iary
The b°
on
▪ .0171-to
abe its
tire
Aos to Plait
;nue.
Id I"
r°a the)? jfir
;e beut,froi
ur.
d tar
t 10
00..tbetotti
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COM"' it 01154,1
varia
discr,rbe rho
0
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tIO
In-
t
nd wt. on is
- sloe d
no. otyo
were titeseliit' si
From
MaYlw;
Lt of
cons red
ide
to r.
Dtestan,ifier
tution• okr'i
d Of °foci
moth, son),
t
0 the PI d 10 est
itertattle,,i
discus:lose;
goner r the
as ons f'thosc:ooo
:n
Ildeos •0 PA,
0;5
PPir
enbybe
nts es;4llloS4roi
vedipeio
e pree,4l vie
5 pro 10—• ,5 0
r to Pe:a.
ause
11 feroooL 1i)
of 9; thyee,
a ea )(eto
pasw. s So op
la
h while cyrof
Pose tbe .00 e i
•L
he pr(Jl t
P „
atti amen
co
the r't 35 17 le
ftorW.a:o toncoi
fall to
gs,-,ja„ity oa
,e-ni"contoeceif
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f the if
.3 fro
!lac L.ee
dons oti v „,
tinny Oro
Pfor its .00
ter werrii' e
a schc ta, 'lO
0 • prie' ots
vide
u(l3atholie ;pc
.h was ie_f jet!
I••rnbere,;itte,
this i05,!,,:0;
ablish is V,
ina;ly ha t
,titution :o
s
in gcnejth
:omen „irl etiaoi
ipport, fe; •
staileei

Mr. B. ESCOTT said that, having listened attentively
to the whole debate that had taken place in that House
on that subject, and having heard many debates in which
the argument preponderated greatly on one side, he
must say he had never been present at one in which the
arguments of the opposition told so much in favour of the
measure opposed. Many of the Honourable Members
who had taken part against this measure had dwelt
upon the application of the public money to
the purposes of the Roman Catholic religion. It
was opposed by thousands out of doors, and by
many Honourable Members in that House, upon
this ground. Now, he should like those who rested
thei r opposition on this ground to draw the distinction
between a grant of 9,0001., as already given, and 27,0001.
as now proposed. lie could not see any difference in
'principle between the present and the smaller grant—if
it was wrong to apply 27,0001. to Maynooth College, it
was equally wrong to vote 9,0001. The Hon. Member
for Dorset (Mr. Bankes) had rested his opposition on
the assumption that the people of England were opposed
to the measure. Instead of this, ha (Mr. Escott) be-
lieved that no Member of that House could commit a
more unpopular act than to vote for its rejection. He
did not believe that any class of the people were op-
posed to it. He believed the clergy were not opposed to
it. If so, where were their petitions ? Where was the
petition from Cambridge, of which so much had been
said ; where were the petitions from the deaneries and
archdeaneries against the passing of this Bill ?
lie had lately passed about ten days in the country, and
he had only met one or two who were opposed to the
measure; while one of the best supporters of it he had
come in contact with was a clergyman of the Church of
Engleinl. He was satisfied that the people of this
country were in favour of this measure, because it was
their belief that it would benefit the people of Ireland.
Some parties who opposed this measure wore against
not only the endowment of a college for the priests of
the Roman Catholics of Ireland, but even against the
toleration of that religion itself. That course had
been already tried and failed. It had been tried during
the Cromwellian period, butit had failed to put down the
Roman Catholic religion. That faith had triumphed
against the tyranny which had been then attempted to
prostrate it. The lion. Member for the University of
Oxford did not think it proper to take away the 9,0001. ;
and if he did not, surely it was no more than just
that as the Roman Catholic population of Ireland had
increased from two and a half millions to seven millions
since that sum of 9,000/. was first granted, that an in-
creased amount should be now given for their enlarged
educational wants. It was not so much as a question of
pounds, shillings, and pence that he supported it, but as
a measure, in the language of the first Minister of the
Crown, to build up a temple of peace between the two
countries. He did not look upon it as a final measure,
for he was no supporter of the miserable finality policy
which had broken up the previous Government, but as
an.instalment of justice to lay the foundation of freedom,
peace, and good will throughout the United
Kingdom.—(Hear, hear.) It was said that we should
look to the present proceedings of the Roman Catholics of
Ireland, as a proof that the object sought to be obtained
by the measure had failed. Instead of being satisfied
with the measure, it was said the Roman Catholics of
Ireland would rest short of nothing but the wild scheme
of the Repeal of the Legislative Union between the two
countries. But he would say—though the Hos. Member
for Cork, and those who followed him, no doubt adopted
that policy—he was sure the great body of the good and
peaceable Roman Catholics of Ireland sympathised with
the opinions expressed by the Hon. Member for Arun-
del, rather than with those of the lion. Member for
Cork. In dealing with the members of the Roman
Catholic religion, he would remind the House,
in all metters of this kind, " to do unto
others as they would that others should do unto
them." They, as Protestants, should consider what
would be their feelings if placed in the position of their
Roman Catholic brethren, and the Government refused to
treat them on that just and enlightened principle. They
should recollect that it was to the Roman Catholic faith
that they were indebted for the foundation of their colleges
and public schools ; that by it their Bible had been pre-
served ; that to it they had been under obligations for
many of their most excellent statutes and liberties ; and
that its generosity and munificence in works of
charity and benevolence were a: tested by a cloud
of witnesses.—((dear.) All these were illustrations
of its past greatness. They should, therefore, as mem-
bers of the Protestant Church, and as members of the
United Kingdom, concede to the people of Ireland
this measure of justice. lie thanked the Ministers for
the measure. He rejoiced at its introduction, as he
thought it was calculated to serve the best interests of
that country. Let them carry forward the good work of
justice in the liberal and enlightened spirit in which
they had begun, and the time would come when those
who opposed the measure would regret that they had
done so, and when the people of Ireland would enjoy,
from a wise and enlightened policy, the blessings of a
brighter and a happier day—a never-ending day of
charity and peace.—(Cheers.)
Mr. SPOONER said, the lion. Member who had just
sat down had begun his address by making a statement
in which he would find he had been very much mistaken,
for he had contended that he (Mr. Spooner) had argued

TUE SUN, LO N DON, TUES_D Al' E VEN IN G, MAY 20. 1845.

the merits of this question as a question of pounds,
shillings, and pence, or, in other words, that it was a
question as to whether 9,0001. or 27,000/. should be the
annual grant. Now, he begged to say, that he
never did treat this as a money question, or as
any other than a religious question, and that he
would persevere in opposing it solely from conscientious
motives. When this question was first introduced to the
House, he said he would be willing to make any sacrifice
to conciliate Ireland, short of a measure involving a ques-
tion of conscience. But now let him ask the Hon. Mein-
ber who had last spoken whether he had read the thirty-
first article of the Church of which he had no doubt he
was a religious and conscientious member? That article
contained these words. (Here the Hon. Member essayed
to read a document he held in his hand, but after several
attempts he appeared to be unable to decypher its con-
tents, which caused considerable laughter. Having
made out a, few words such as " blasphemous,"
" masses," he then continued.) Ile begged to re-•
mind Honourable Members opposite, that it was not
by clamour that parties could be convinced, or
that ridicule could be deemed argument ; and, there-
fore, he was led to suppose that they had resorted to
ridicule because argument had failed them. And he
begged to tell the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary of
State for the home Department in the same words, that
numbers did not constitute conviction. Let him (Mr.
Spooner) not be misunderstood—towards his Roman
Catholic fellow subjects individually he felt the sincerest
friendship and regard, and lie gave them credit for
acting according to the dictates of their conscience. But
he looked upon this question as one which asked the
House and the counti y whether the Roman Catholic or
the Protestant religion was the religion of the Scrip-
tures; and if the answer should be in favour or the for-
mer, then it should be admitted that the Protestant en-

ligion was a complete delusion. He was ready to admit
that this was not the place in which to enter upon a
polemical discussion.—(flear, bear, and laughter.) He
was aware that many of h's remarks would not be
received with cordiality by those who were now listen-
ing to him. Neverthess he would not flinch from de-
claring, openly and honestly, what he felt to be his im-
perative duty. This measure had been reported
upon without the slighest inquiry having been
made as to the course of education pursued at
Maynooth, but he would state what it was.
The first book to which he would call the attention of
the House was one which they would find alluded to in
the report of the Irish Education Committee, at page
449 of that report. The book to which he alluded was
that of Bailly. In the second volume of that work,
page 138, they would find it laid down that the Pope
might dispense with oaths ; and in another page of the
same bock, it was stated that the Supreme Prelate could
dispense with vows and oaths in all cases. In this the
writer was confirmed by St. Thomas Aquinas, and
several others. 1)r. M‘Hale said that it was laid down
as a proposition that the utility of the Church was a just
cause of the dispensation from oaths, and that the
superiors of the Church were the judges of what was
for the utility of the Church. Then there was Gelasius
(as we understood)—the name being received with
suppressed laughter by several Hon. Members, the Hon.
Gentleman continued. The mention of that name might
cause laughter amongst Hon. Gentlemen opposite, but
the book which he had mentioned was a class-book at
Maynooth. If Hon. Gentlemen doubted it, let them go
into that inquiry which he asked for. Gelasius said
that bishops had the power of releasing persons from
oaths provided just cause existed. And who were to be
the judges of the just cause ? Why the Catholic
prelates themselves. He would ask the Hon. Member
for Montrose if he was prepared to make this annual
perpetual grant, and to give this large sum of money to
persons irresponsible to Parliament ? It wast:in vain to
say that this measure would be a final measure, or that
it would be received as such by the Catholics
of Ireland. The Roman Catholics would not
be doing justice to themselves, holding, as they
did, that theirs was the primitive church—holding, as
they did, that all who differed from them were heretics,
they would not, he said, be faithful to themselves if they
accepted this as a final measure. It would be only looked
upon by them as a stepping-stone to further concessions.
He would entreat the-House then to pause before they
sanctioned this measure. If they doubted, then was the
time to stop this Bill and to demand inquiry. The Pro-
testant Members of that House had in the most solemn
manner declared their belief that the Catholic religion
was idolatrous and superstitious, and yet they were
asked to give their consent to a measure for
the training up of the priesthood who taught
that religion. It was the paramount duty of the
Government before they did this, and of the Lord
High Chancellor of the Kingdom to come down to Par-
liament and ask that that declaration be no longer bind-
ing. It had been said that the feeling which had been
evinced on this question was not a spontaneous feeling,
but the effect of di*tion and agitation. But could any
sensible man think that without some responding feeling,
that any set of linen, however talented, sitting
in a room in London, could cause to be laid
on the table of that House petitions 'deeper
and thicker than the heaviest fall of snow on 'Scotch
mountains.—(Laughter.) The people of Great Britain
thought and acted for themselves. The great body of
the petitioners were men who acted on the spur of the
moment. His Right Hon. Friend at the head of the
Government had described his feelings as a mere effer-
vescence. He wished to deal with it as a doubtful ques-
tion, but his Right Hon. Friend should know that re-

ligious feeling was deep in the minds of the
people of this country. The warning which his
Right Hon. Friend gave last session did not alarm
the country, because they looked upon him as the Pro-
testant leader of a Protestant country—as the Protes-
tant adviser of a Protestant Sovereign—as the leader of
a party which rallied round him for four years, and
placed him i❑ that high and honourable position for the
purpose of preserving the institutions of the country as
they found them; and, above all, for the purpose of con-
serving and preserving the constitution, which this mea
sure went directly to undermine. He challenged the
Right Hon. Baronet to test the feelings of the country
—he felt sure he was conscientious, and that nothing
but a sense of public duty would induce him to do what
he had done—but let not the Right Hon. Baronet pro-
ceed further in this course before he threw himself on
the Protestant feeling of the country; and if he acted in
accordance with their feelings, he would find that
warm support which he could not otherwise obtain.
He might depend upon it, the country would not sub-
mit quietly to this change—the greatest change that had
ever been proposed by any Minister of the Crown since
the days of the Revolution. He called upon the Right
Hon. Baronet to appeal to the country, and if the voice
of the country was found favourable to the measure, he
would never more give it an iota of opposition ; but let
not the country undergo that change at the hands of a
Minister who had been placed in power under very
different expectations.—(Hear, hear.) They might
plaister the wounds of the public mind, but they would
break out with increased virulence ; the public feeling
might smoulder, but it would break out sooner or later ;
and he therefore called upon the Government to pause
before they committed this great error, which they could
not recal, and which would, he conscientiously believed,
be fatal to the honour, the peace, and the prosperity of
this country. He thanked the House for the manner in
which they had heard him. He had no feelings of ill
will towards his Catholic fellow-countrymen,with many of
whom he lived in terms of friendship. He gave them
credit for honour and honesty ; and he thought that if
they did not act as they had done, they wouP +ot be
performing their duty according to the views of tne re-
ligion to which they belonged.
Mr. C. BULLER said he told his Hon. Friend the
Member for Waterford that he was doing an exceedingly
foolish thing when he entered into the subject of
theology, and entered into an explanation of the doc-
trines of the Roman Catholic Church, for he might be
sure Hon. Members on the other side would quote
volumes of theology.—(A laugh.) See the consequence.
The lion. Member for Birmingham had thrown aside all
other questions, and entirely devoted himself to the study
of the Catholic divines—(Laughter)—the 140 volumes
of St. Thomas Aquinas, and the voluminous writings of
Talacosius, wasn't it ?—(Laughter.) Well, then, Gal-
latius, or some such name. The Hon. Gentleman seemed
to have waded through these, and having found in them
two or three doctrines which he considered reprehensible,
called upon the House to condemn the measure under its
consideration. So that they were to refuse this measure
of concession to their Roman Catholic fellow-subjects
because the Hon. Member for Birmingham had found,
among the immense collection of the works of the great
writers of the Catholic Church, monuments of the
ability and zeal of barbarous times, a few opi-
nions which he considered repulsive.—(Loud cheers.)
After this warning, he hoped Hon. Members, in the fu-
ture discussion of this question, would leave the question
of theology where it then stood. The Hon. Member for
Birmingham seemed to be fearful of encountering ridi-
cule. lie could assure the Hon. Gentleman that he was

before Parliament with a firm determination of carrying
them through. He hoped the day was not far distant
when the endowment of the Roman Catholic Church
would take place, for all these measures led to it. He
found that this measure was proposed by Ministers who
were put in power to arrest the progess of a principle on
which they confessed they must govern Ireland. There
was one point on which he would make concession to the
opinions of those opposed to him, averse as they were
to the policy on which they ought to govern.
He did not think the experiment was disproportionate
to the object. He was obliged to admit that he could
not look upon the measure as a solitary measure. It
was not a solitary measure at the present moment. He
looked upon it in connexion with the excellent measure
for the increase of academical education for Ireland,
which was introduced the other night; and in connexion
with the promise given the other night of assimilating
the municipal franchise in Ireland with the municipal
franchise in England. Whatever might be his objections
to the details still he could not think that he could for
a moment bring these objections against a measure
which showed a policy of justice towards Ireland.
It seemed to him to be the duty of every friend to Ire-
land—of every person wishing justice to that country,
and of every person who wished to continue the con-
nexion between the two parts of the empire, to support
the measure which was now before them. That was
a policy to which he gave as strong and as unhesitating
a support, as if it were introduced by a Liberal Mi-
nistry, and as if the existence of that Ministry de-
pended on its support.—(Hear, and laughter.) If this
measure were rejected by them, they would discontent
the people of Ireland, and give them a just cause for
showing that the repeal of the union was the only
remedy for the evils of the country. The claim of the
Irish people to have their religion upheld and respected
was just as great as that of the people
of England and Scotland to have theirs upheld,
and 36,0001. was a very small sum for that
purpose, considering that they had deprived them of
that endowment which their 'ancestors gave them for
the support of their hierarchy.—(Hear, hear.) Certain
speeches on both sides of the House resolved themselves
into this, that they could not support an endowment of a
church, because they adopted the voluntary principle,
and they ought not to give anything to any church
whatever. The application of the voluntary system in
the present instance was quite absurd, because they en-
dowed the Presbyterians and Unitarians in the north of
Ireland; but whatever be the religion of the rich they
gave them some of the public money, and it was only
when poor men came forward for the support of
their religion that they buttoned up their pockets.—
(Hear, and laughter.) That was a principle which was
both odious and ridiculous. It could not be just, for
they called upon the Catholics to pay all the Protestant
sects, and why not pay them something in return. The
arguments used were, that the doctrines of the Roman
Catholics were unsound, but though he was ready to
submit that many of their doctrines were erroneous, he
at the same time considered that the religious opinions of
every class of the community should be equally respected.
The existing repugnance to the Roman Catholic religion
was quite ungrounded. They used invariably to ground
their case on the assumption of a temporary expediency
to coerce the whale party in power to fall in with their
views. Their case was precisely similar to that which
was equally tenable for all parties. They considered if
a new policy to be pursued towards Ireland was the
means of their obtaining the reins of Government
they would be fully justified in following it
up.—(Hear, hear.) They thought if they could
place the Right Hon. Baronet in power, they could
make him the instrument of their intentions. The pro-
posed measure was of far too great importance to the in-
terests of Ireland to be lightly discussed. It was to the
mutual interest of all parties in the House to co-operate
one with the other ; and without that mutual union it
would be impossible to do justice to the long-neglected
claims of the Irish people. He had no great misgivings
as to the ultimate effect of giving satisfaction to Ireland;
but then it would require the energetic and united
efforts of all parties. Every step in the conduct of
their policy towards Ireland should be unanimous. He
considered if the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the
Government were disheartened in the progress of the
policy at present pursued towards that country, a great
and glaring wrong would be perpetrated on the Irish
nation; and the Right Hon. Gentleman might rely on his
(Mr. fuller's) support, not only on this, but on
every occasion when a similar measure to the present
should be proposed for the amelioration of Ireland.—
(Cheers.) Public opinion was more in favour of the
measure than was commonly thought. He would suggest
an idea which was more important than the Right Hon.
Baronet was willing to admit. He would inquire, now
that he had done so much for the Irish nation, what did
sHaetiasriachtieoa with
which
wise
the speech of the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of the
lesson s proposeon
Home Department had been received, and it was a matter
of great congratulation for him. Good policy was now
being pursued towards Ireland, and it might be con-
sidered as the omen of better times hereafter. The
Catholic emancipation was not happily the last boon
which the people of Ireland were to obtain,
nor was it now intended, since they could no
longer exclude the Catholics as religionists, to debase
them as a political party. Lord Melbourne's Govern-
ment had done all that laid in its power towards amelio-
rating the condition of the Irish nation, and the people
were satisfied that all that could be done had been done,
and it was the satisfaction that resulted from this convic•

tion which induced them to place confidence in the Noble
Lord's administration. Bad policy pursued towards a
country for whole centuries was not to be remedied by the
adoption of one solitary measure. The Irish people
re naturally suspicious of the good faith of the present
Government, when they teak into consideration the
treatment they had hitherto received from them. They
were doubtful what would be the result of the policy at
present pursued, but he would advise the Right Hon.
Baronet only to persevere in the course he had elected to
follow, and Irishmen would soon be satisfied of his
good intentions towards them. National feelings were
not always the less favourable because they were not
always noisily expressed. He was firmly of opinion
that the repeal of the Union, about which so much
noise was the greatest enemy to the in-
terests od been
of
bthenpehoepalrd, e o
f
Ireland. The question was one
of great importance and considerable intricacy; and, in
his opinion, the manner in eihich it had been met was
the only means of obviating the danger which would
have resulted had it been less resolutely dealt with. The
Right Hon. Baronet had been repeatedly taunted upon
the severity which he had exercised on that occasion;
but his conduct then, even if it had been reprehensible,
had now been amply compensated for by the boon which
he had offered to the Irish people. Hon. Members
might discuss the question of the Oregon territory at
their leisure, but he would remind them that there were
many political Oregons in Ireland, the boundaries of
which had not yet been settled. And this wrong-
headed policy of curtailing and restricting the
rights of Ireland had been pursued for centuries.
Against that policy the
Government of this country
would now contend only by following such a course as
the Right Hon. Baronet was pursuing.—(Hear, hear.)
He trusted that the Right Hon. Baronet would go on,
and he was sure that if he did so, he would secure to
this country the entire affections of the people of Ire-
land—(Cheers)—and render the connexion of Ireland
with this country a bond of strength, instead of a mark
of opprobrium and subjection.—(Hear.)
Sir V. BLAKE, at great length, supported the mea-
sure of the Government, whose pc licy he defended with
,
great warmth. But he was heard very imperfectly in-
deed, and many passages of his speech
which excited
great merriment in the House, were entirely lost to the
gallery. We understood him to conclude by recom-
mending the establishment of a second university in
Dublin, without interfering with the privileges of that
which now exists.
Lerd INGESTRE rose simply to give his vote for
this grant. He would frankly confess that if the vote
had come from the other side of the House that he should
have opposed it, because he had seen, in their conduct
when on the Ministerial side of the House, a truckling to
public opinion which he should ever oppose. But the
contrary was.the case with the present Ministry. They
had vindicated the supremacy of the law, and then they
prOposed measures for the pacification of Ireland. He
had always been an advocate for what was called justice
to Ireland, and he had given a vote, though a silent one,
against the grant, for he felt that it was so small as to
enable the Roman Catholic priests to teach mischief
without any corresponding power to do good. He would
have preferred a modification of the term, and would have
liked to have a definite period fixed for the grant.
Three years would certainly be too short a time for
toping the effect of the experiment, but five or seven
years might have been so. As, however, he had no
opportunity of availing himself of this advantage ho
should vote for the grant as it stood on the motion.
Mr. LAWSON moved the adjournment of the debate.
Mr. REDINGTON opposed the adjournment.
Mr. LAWSON said that there were several gentlemen
who wished to address the House, and it was clearly
impossible to finish the debate that night. He had him-
self endeavoured to catch the Speaker's eye early in the
evening, and should desire to state his opinions, which
he could not do that night.
Lord MOSELEY opposed the adjournment
Sir R. INGLIS approved of the adjournment.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL thought the debate ought to
proceed for an hour or two yet.
Mr. lIINDLEY said that it was not fair to charge
the opponents of the measure with not having come for-
ward to express their opinions that evening, especially
after the extraordinary opinion advanced by the Hon.
Member for Honiton.
Sir R. PEEL would not oppose the adjournment, al-
though he thought it better to continue it for another
hour or two. If they were to do so he was convinced
that any Hon. Member who wished to address the
House would have a fair and patient hearing from a full
House. He (Sir R. Peel) would venture to predict that
from five till nine o'clock next evening- the House would
ho co:nparatively empty, and he thought that sufficient
time for the consideration of this question, whieh was to
be seen in the. diminished agitation against the measure.
Lord INGESTRE said he was much surprised
at the statement of the Hon. Member for Wallingford
for he could not discover what connexion there was be.
tweet' his (Lord Ingestre's) speech and the question o
adjournment.

not inclined to ridicule him. It was more in sorrow than
in anger that he heard such discussions, and in such a
spirit. He felt pained that the Hon. Member should
think it necessary to declare in that House that their

Roman Catholic fellow subjects were labouring under an
awful delusion. He certainly thought that an Hon.
Member who spoke in that way—an Hon. Member who
took credit to himself for a considerate regard for his
Catholic fellow-subjects, and who yetcould insult them in
this deliberate manner, was himself labouring under an
awful delusion. He hoped there was no occasion to be
guided by the advice of the Hon. Gentleman and the Hon.
3lemlier for Dorset to dissolve Parliament. He did not
see any necessity for it.—(Laughter.) The Hon. Mem-
ber for Dorset said that the Right Hon. Gentleman the
Secretary of State for the Home Department had ad-
vised a dissolution of Parliament on the Reform Bill ;
but the reason of that was, that the Reform Bill had
been thrown, of which there was no chance of the May.
nooth Bill. lie was one of the very few Members who
had received no remonstrance from his constituents on
this subject, although he had given the Bill and would
give the Bill hii most anxious and zealous support, and
he thought that his constituents had thereby acted pro-
perly, and shown that they thoroughly understood the
real principle of a representative Government. He looked
upon the provision for the education of the Catholic
clergy as a great good, and he regarded it as a stop in
the right direction—the first advance towards a Just
and concililiatory lino of policy towards Ireland. It was
not a mere change of opinion in a particular man, but a
total change of policy which muit now be persevered in,
whatever Government was in office. Roman Catholics
were now put upon a level, in point of civil rights,
with their Protestant fellow-subjects. The Emancipa-
tion Bill had been passed—the penal laws had been
abolished—the Catholic Bequests Bill had been carried
into operation—and now the Government proposed a
measure which would afford a full and satisfactory mode
of education to the Roman Catholic priesthood. He re-
garded all these things as a portion of that line of
policy which would ultimately be found the most
beneficial. Coercion had failed, and it was most remark-
able that the very men who most strenuously opposed
thoe measures of relief to Roman Catholics were now
their most ardent supporters, nay, actually brought them

LUNATIC ASYLUMS.
Sir T. FREMANTLE, after a short discussion, in
which Messrs. Iledingten and Grogan took part, ob-
tained leave to bring in a,Bill for establishing a central
asylum for lunatics, and to amend the Act for the lunatic
asylums in Ireland, which was reada first time, and or-
dered to be read a second time this day week.
The oilier orders of the day were then disposed of,
and the House adjourned at half-past twelve o'clock.

HOUSE OF LORDS, May 19.
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat ou the Wool-
sack shortly after Five o'clock.
A message from the Commons brought up several Bills.
The Exchequer-bills Bill WAS read a third tuna and
passed,

Lord PORTMAN presented petitions from Somerset
in favour of the grant to the College of Maynooth.
Lord BEAUMONT presented petitions from the
Catholics of Clithero, complaining of donations and be-
quests left for Catholic purposes having been appro-
priated to subjects other thin those for which they were
intended.

The Bishop of ST. DAVID'S presented several pe-
titions against the grant to the College of Maynooth.
Lord MONTEAGLE presented petitions in favour of
the grant to the College of Maynooth from Tunbridge
Wells, signed by three Protestant clergymen and a great
number of inhabitants of that town.

The Marquis of ELY presented a petition from the
inhabitants and parishioners of the parish of lieleslEerry,
in the county of Tyrone, against the grant to the College
of Maynonth.

Lor'd STOURTON presented a petition against the
Debtors and Creditors' Bill.
PUBLIC MUSEUMS BILL.

Lord WIIARNCLIFFE moved the committal of the
Public Museums Bill.

The Bill then went through Committee, in which cer-
tain amendments were agreed to.
Lord ASIIBURTON presented a petition from an in-
dividual, whose name the Noble Lord did not mention,
complaining of the hardship he had experienced by the
operation of the 201. clause of the Debtors and Creditors'
Act.

The Marquis of BREADALBANE presented a num-
ber of petitions against the increased Maynooth grant.
These were petitions against the proposed endowment.
his Lordship then presented petitions from Glasgow and
several ether places against all grants to religious bodies,
one of which, from the Free Church of St. Cyrus, and
Dr. Keith, its head man, of European eminence. These
might be said to express the feelings of the Dissenters,
and to exhibit the force of the voluntary principle.