The Sun.
London, England, 1842-04-13 00:00:00

withdrawn, he would come forward with some pro-
position at some future day.—(Hear, hear.) But the
question now at issue was so clearly decided, that no
muck proposition could be satisfactory.—(Cheers.) They
all remembered when the Hon. Member for Finsbury
proposed his resolution, that the Right Hon. Gentleman
at the head of her Majesty's Government said he
would take no other course except to give a direct
negative to the proposition, and he had not heard an)
different opinion from him.--(Hear, hear.) The Nobit
Lord said that he understood there was a willingness to
maintain that resolution of the House. He (Lord John
Russell) was quite willing to maintain that resolution.
—(Hear, hear.) That resolution was passed by the lett
Parliament, and was so far binding on the present
Parliament that the Speaker enforced it, and if by
making it a standing order of the House it could be made
more binding he had no objection to that course, but in
the absence of any proposition, and the question
being one as to the reception or rejection of
the petition, he could only say that he would
give his vote for its reception as he had done on the
former occasion.—(Cheers.) He thought it better when
debates were going on with respect to an income tax.
and when his Hon. Friend had a petition on the subject,
which hemoved should be received, and when he (born
Juhh Russell) held two petitions in his hand, that they
shoeld not evade the subject before them.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. LIDDELL thought the House ought to have had
some formal notice of the intention of the Hon. Member.
Ile perfectly agreed with the Noble Lord, that it was
impossible to evade the discussion of this question ; it
had, now assumed a form in which the public business
would be suspended, if some decided determination were
nut come to. The Right Hon. Baronet had taken the
course which he thought he was bound to take.—
(Hear, hear.) They were without notice, suddenly
called on to abrogate a rule of the House which had
obtained for 150 years, and if any one would consult
Hansard, they would see that it was come to in the first
year of William the Third, after the revolution of 1688,
and that, like most other rules of the House, it was not
established without sound reasons. He thought the
Secretary of State for the Home Department put the
question on its proper ground, when he said
that the rule was a remnant of protection to
the Crown, necessary in order that the
public business should not be obstructed by petitions,
which, if they were once admitted, would flock in from
every part of the kingdom. He believed that the fact of
the Noble Lord (the Member for London) being on the
other side of the House had something to do with the
opinion he had come to on this subject. Looking at the
firmness with which the Noble Lord had, on a former
occasion, maintained the privileges of the House, would
he, if he bad been at the head of the Government, have
taken the course he had now done ?
" Credat Judieus—non ego."
He thought at least that they should come to no sudden
determination upon the subject, and that they should
not come to a decision without taking into their consi-
deration the future convenience of the House. On these
groimds ho should give his vote against the motion then
before the House, as he had already voted against the
Hon. Member for Finsbury.
After a few words from Lord FRANCIS EGERTON,
which did not reach the gallery,
Mr. THOMAS DUNCOMBE rose and said it was
quite clear that there was but one or other of two ways
of getting out of the present difficulty ; the one was for
the House at once to receive the petition, the other was
for her Majesty's Ministers to come down with a stand-
ing order, and pass that order, to the effect that no peti-
tion against a tax should be received. That, as he had
said yesterday, was the proper way, considering the
views of the Right Hon. Baronet opposite, of dealing
with the subject. But what did the Noble Lord, the
Member for Lancashire, (Lord F. Egerton) propose ?
He proposed that this petition should be withdrawn, and
he would see, in the course of a few days, whether he
could not make a sort of feather bed for her Majesty's
Ministers to fall down upon.—(Hear.) That was the
way by which the Noble Lord proposed that her Majesty's
Ministers should escape from the difficulty in which
they were now placed, and the defeat which must at
length, probably that very night, attend their opposition
to the proposal before the House. Now, Hon. Members
upon his side were not prepared in the slightest degree to
compromise their principles. They had placed before the
House and the country the grounds which induced them to
think that the people had a right to address that House
by petition, on the subject of taxation, as they must upon
all other measures under the consideration of Parlia-
ment.—(Hear, hear.) He maintained that they, as the
guardians of the public purse, and as the representatives
of the people, had a right to entertain those petitions, and
that the people were entitled to advise theta as to the dis-
posal of their own money in the same way as any proprietor
of an estate had a right to direct his steward in the appli-
cation of his rent.—(Hear, hear.) That was his case ;
and until they were prepared to controvert that position,
it was no use to come down and talk about a practice of
150 years. Such arguments might then have done
remarkably well ; they might have done remarkably
well in the days of Gatton and 01(1 Sarum, but they
would not do at the present day. Public opinion was
against them—common sense was against them—(Loud
cries of " Hear, bear")—and justice was against them.
He wanted, therefore, to know what was the use
of the House waiting two or three days, in order
that they might hear the resolution of the Noble Lord,
the Member for Lancashire ? The Noble Lord had
voted with his (Mr. Duncombe's) party yester-
day, and he trusted he would again vote with
him that night. He felt assured, at all events,
that his Honourable Friend who had been entrusted
with the petition would not compromise the interests of
his constituents, but that he would again take the sense
of the House as to whether those petitions should be re-
ceived.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir rtOiIERT PEEL said that he could assure the
Hon. Gentleman that he was not acting under any ap-
prehension of any fall whatever, nor did he want any
feather bed to fall upon.—(Hear, hear.) He
had only discharged what he believed to be his
duty to the Crown and the public. He believed it to be
his duty to maintain a usage which he found had pre-
vailed for 150 years—(" Oh, oh," from the Opposition
benches)—not because it had prevailed for so long a
period, but because repeated proofs of the inconve-
nience of departing from it had gradually confirmed
into a long-enduring usage the practice which had
originally been adopted. He had felt it to be his duty
to maintain the rule, because he foresaw that the ser-
vice of the Crown, and the country must be most mate-
rially prejudiced, as related to the means of obtaining
the necessary supplies for the public service, by
the operation of the practice of presenting peti-
tions against the supplies for the service of the
year, and also by debating those petitions.—(Hear.)
He still held the opinion that if the House departed from
the practice—if they would allow petitions to be pre-
sented against taxes, and if those petitions were to be
debated at length, controlled only by the discretion of in-
dividual Members then they would be establish-
ing a rule, from which, in his own opinion, a
great public inconvenience might follow. lie therefore
opposed the relaxation of the rule ; and the House hav-
ing determined by a majority of 31, for its continuance;
it appeared to him that that common sense to which the
Hon. Gentleman had referred, dictated to him that
when it was proposed on the following day, that
an individual petition should be presented, it was
his duty, acting upon the expressed opinion of
the House to oppose the motion. The rule in dispute had
not, however, the force of a Standing Order, and he
admitted that a rule of that kind could not be main-
tained unless there was a very strong majority in its fa-
vour.—(Hear, hear.) He did not deny that the narrow
majority by which the rule was supported was. a
strong proof • that there was not a prevailing
opinion in favour of the maintenance of the existing
usage. But the expressed opinion of the House
in no respect altered his own opinion. Still, as lie be-
lieved that a rule of the kind could be maintained only
when supportod by a very considerable majority, he
thought that a majority of one only afforded a very
strong indication that there was not a preponderating
majority in that House in favour of a continuance
of the existing practice. He was also ready
to admit that the power which an individual
Member possessed of offering tiepetition, and debating
the question, whether it should be received, coupled with
the inability of other Hon. Members, to prevent such a
course of proceeding, induced hint to think that the time
might arrive when the lion. Gentleman might achieve
his object ; especially as it would not be in the power of
those who differed from him, to come down at four
o'clock each :.evening, for the purpose of defeating
such motions as the present. He was perfectly
willing to make all those admissions, and it certainly
appeared to him to be desirable that they should not be
left to daily conflicts upon the presentation of petitions.
There would thus be a great consumption of the public
time, and a great interruption to public business. It
would not, in his opinion, be creditable the House that
day after day they should be engaged in constant conflicts
upon such a subject. He did not, therefore, hesitate
to say that he should be very unwilling from public con-
siderations exclusively 'to enter into those conflicts, and
without at all departing from his own opinion, he was
ready to yield .to what appeared to him to be the pre-
vailing sentiment of the House. He did not
deny that if any convenient mode could be
pointed out of meeting the difficulty; ho should be
willing to desist from his opposition upon the question.
He did that in deference to what appeared to him to be
the prevailing opinion ; but he did intreat the House to
consider the position of the House of Commons.—
(Hear, hear.) What he understood his Noble Friend to
say was, that a very short interval should be given
that they might consider whether they could be
put on a satisfactory footing or not. Ho thought
the Hon. Gentleman who made the motion could not re-
fuse to withdraw it—(Hear, hear)—anti he hoped all
those who voted for the presentation of the petition yes-
terday under the idea that nothing would be done, would
to-day vote against the measure. He hoped that
if they were to have petitions from meetings
that they might be public meetings.—(Hear, hear.)
He dared say that the petitions against the income tax
would not proceed from hole and corner meetings, but
from meetings publicly called—(Laughter)—and he had
no doubt that all those who were opposed to an addition
in the assessed taxes, those who feared an addition to
any taxes, and those whose incomes were under 150/.
a year, would take an opportunity at these public meet-
ings of expressing their opinion against this tax.—
(Hear, hear, and a laugh.)
Lord HO WICK said he agreed with some of the re-
marks that had fallen from the Right Hon. Gentleman.
The Right Hon. Baronet said that he thought they ought
to consider the position of the House of Commons, and
he entirely concurred with the Right Hon. Gentleman ;
but when he said that they ought not to consent to the
withdrawal of the petitions presented by, the Hon. Mem-
ber for South Lancashire, on that point he confessed
that he could not agree with the Right Hon. Gentle-
man. He (Lord Howick) thought that there was
nothing sufficiently clear or distinct in the statement
of his lion. Friend near him, but he thought that consi-
dering the position which the Right lion. Baronet hold

n that House, it was for him to undertake the subject
nimself ; if he would undertake the subject, and woult
4tive them a distinct promise that in the interns
if two or three days, he would come dowi
o that House and propose on the authority
if the Government, a resolution on Standing Orders
which would enable them to present petitions of the.
lescription, then he for one would strongly recommem
o his Hon. Friend, the Member for Hertford, tha
he should withdraw the petitions he had now offere,
or presentation ; but he thought that any-thin;
,hort of such a promise from the Right Hon. Baronet
would not be satisfactury to the country, or that Housi
tle therefore begged to ask the Right Hon. Baronet
whether he was prepared to take the matter into his owl
lands. and representing as he did her Majesty's Govern-
nent in that House, to propose such a resolution a:
night have the effect of relieving the House from tin
embarrassment of its present position.
Sir R. PEEL said there were many occasions en
.vhich long practice would justify the House in calling
terson in his (Sir R. Peel's) situation—he meant a
leader of the House of Commons, as it was genersll:
ermed—to propose to it a certain course of proceeding :
but he thought that there were occasions, and the pre-
tent seemed to hint one of them, on which it words'
ie rather hard to impose upon a certain individual the
:ask of proposing the means of obviating difficulties, ti
which he, himself was opposed. Considering the opi-
dons which he (Sir R. Peel) had expressed on the mat-
.er, he thought that if he had volunteered such a reso-
lution as the Noble Lord suggested, he should have but
irovolied opposition to it. Ile, therefore, was not
prepared to give the Noble Lord that assur-
ance which he had asked ; but he was prepare
u remit his own opinions in deference to those,
f the House, and co-operate with those who
hought a course different from that which he lual
pursued to he better. He was prepared to concur witl
my Hon. Member who might think it a better course
.0 appoint a Committee to consider of the matter.—
(Oh, oh, from the Opposition.) He thought the matte'
one of considerable importance, and he had shoal:
that he would not persist in his own opinion against that
if the House. If the Honourable Gentleman pre-
pared that resolution of which he had given notice.
he (Sir Robert Peel) would co-operate with him ill
proposing it in such a shape as should be generally
acceptable to the House, but considering the opinion
that he had expressed upon the subject, the proposing o'
the resolution had better be committed to other hands.
Mr. CUMMING BRUCE rose (amid loud cries of
Divide, divide.") He said be had been just about to
make such a proposition as had just now fallen fron
his Right Honourable Friend who had just sat
down. (The Honourable Member continued to ad-
dress the House for some time, but was inaudible
luring the greater portion of his address, in con-
sequence of the noise in the body of the House arising
from the impatience of lion. Members to divide.) Ile
was understood to say that the best course would he
the appointment of a Committee who would take the
matter into its consideration, and report upon it.
They owed it to their own dignity to inform themselves
on the subject.—(Loud cries of "Divide, divide," "Ques-
tion.") The great object of Hon. Gentlemen opposite
seemed to be to induce the House to transfer deliberating
as to the propriety of imposing a tax for the calm consi-
deration of the representatives of the people to the body
of the people theinselves.—(Cheers, and cries of" Divide,
divide.") He thought it would be better to refer the
subject to the consideration of a Committee.—(Divide.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL thought it would be of great
advantage if the Speaker would have the goodness to
state the exact difference between a Resolution of the
House and a Standing Order.
The SPEAKER said that the present rule, pro-
hibiting discussion on the presentation of petitions, was a
resolution of the House, and was, therefore, binding only
on the present Parliament. The House had, during the
present Session, confirmed that resolution, and therefore
during the present Session the rule founded upon that
resolution could not be questioned. In another Session,
however, that resolution might be questioned. If the rule
were made a Standing Order instead of being de-
pendent upon a resolution of the House, it would not
only be binding upon the present, but upon all future
Parliaments until it should be rescinded.
Lord MAHON, said, as one of the Members for Hert-
ford, and as one who had voted in the minority the pre-
vious night, he was anxious to make a few observations.
He thought that under the circumstances his Hon. Col-
league should not persist in his motion.—(Hear.) His Hon.
Friend, the Member for North Lancashire had announced
his intention of bringing forward on Thursday next
a resolution upon the vote which he had given, and the
sentiments which he had expressed.—(Hear, hear.) He
would put it to his Hon. Colleague whether the position
of the question was not materially changed.—(Hear,
hear, hear.) If that resolution were not sufficient,
he (Lord Mahon) would not shrink from the duty
of renewing the vote which he had felt it his duty to
give.—(Hear, hear.) He would therefore request ;his
Hon. Friend to withdraw his petition. Should, how-
ever, the Honourable Gentleman persist in his
motion, he would move as an amendment
that the debate be adjourned till Friday next, when they-
would have an opportunity of deciding upon the resolu •
tion to which he had referred.
Lord FRANCIS EGERTON said, it might,
perhaps, be convenient to all that he should read to
the House the notice which he had given : "To
move resolutions confirmatory of the practice
of this House, as laid down from the Chair
in 1839, with respect to the reception of petitions
and permitting the presentation to this House of peti-
tions against taxes to be imposed for the year ; the said
resolutions to be Standing Orders of the House."
Lord PALMERSTON said that he would recommend his
Hon. Friend to accede to the proposition of the Noble Lord
(Mahon), and adjourn the debate till Friday, provided the
Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) would state to the House
that he was prepared with that influence which he possessed,
from his position, to support the proposition of the Noble Lord
(Lord F. Egerton.) if the House had that assurance from
the Right Hon. Baronet, that he would give his assistance to
carry the Standing Order for the purpose of permitting the
presentation of petitions, he hoped his Hon. Friend would con-
sent to the adjournment.
Sir ROBERT PEEL said that the Noble Lord assumed
that he (Sir Robert Peel) was acting in concert with
the Noble Lord (Francis Egerton) but such was not the
fact. He was not aware of the resolution the Noble Lord
had to move, and therefore it was impossible for him to give
any positive pledge to support his resolution.—(Hear,
hear.) At the same time he would say, that from what he
had heard, he was prepared to agree generally in it. He would
reserve himself upon the -point of the Standing Order. If the
House thought it advisable to present petitions on the subject
of a tax, it was desirable that the intentions of the House should
be known with respect to the debates upon them. As he had
not seen the resolution, he could not give any positive pledge to
support it; but upon the general objects of the resolution he
would promise the Noble Lord that he would give it his cordial
support.—( Hear. )
WAKLEY regretted the proposition of the Noble
Lord opposite, and he regretted still more that it received any
concurrence on his side of the House. Although they were
not conquerors on last night, the nature of the contest showed
who would be the victors on a future occasion.—(Cries of
"Divide, divide.") He had long thought that the practice of
petitioning was useless while the practice of debating petitions
was entirely prohibited. The great questions of the abolition
of the Slave Trade, Catholic Emancipation, and the Reform
Bill, were all carried by debating petitions. But now pe-
titions were simply presented to this House and disregarded.
He thought it had been shown that they could gain their ob-
ject without any compromise. It was clear from the consti-
tution of the House, and the regulations that now prevailed,
that they could succeed in presenting the petitions of the
people against:taxes under consideration without any compromise
or stipulation. Why should they make that which was now
objectionable still more odious, in order to obtain a privilege
which they could secure without it P Common sense told him
that no such proposition should be acceded to. See what they
had gained by the present discussion. They had debated the
petitions, and by the debate they were likely to get rid of one
of the most unconstitutional practices that ever obtained in
Parliament. Ought they, then, to be parties to gagging
themselves? Ought they not rathereae before tootrrey t andhe
Hooblistaeini
in be-
half freedom of speech when they m
of their constituents? Nothing could be more reason-
able than the petition which had been forwarded to the Hon.
Member for Hertford. Nothing could be more objec-
tionale than that the people should not have an oppor-
tunity of expressing their opinions. (I-fear, hear. )
They had now an opportunity of discussing petitions, but the
proposal was that that opportunity should be now cut off. It
was better to enter into no compromise at all, but to take the
division on the question whether the petition be received or
not, leaving her Majesty's Government to bring forward any
measure they might think proper.
Sir GEORGE GREY said, as he understood the Noble
Lord opposite, nothing approaching to a compromise hati been
proposed. A resolution already existed, binding on this Par-
liament, preventing them from receiving petitions; arid the
Noble Lord proposed to move a resolution merely repeating
that. He confessed he did not sae the use of such a resolution,
but, assuming that they adopted it, they gave up no right
they at present possessed. The concession, in which the Right
Hon. Gentleman stated he was prepared to concur, would
open the door of the House to the people against taxes, with-
out in the slightest degree giving up any right that Members
at present possessed.
Mr. WALLACE rose amid loud cries of " divide." He
thought if they did not go to a devision on that question, a
great occasion would be lost to the people. Besides this
nothing would induce him to forget his duty, which was to
obtain the right of debating petitions. In the next session of
Parliament he would take care that the rule should be again
tested, that the constituency might know who the men were
who were willing to let their petitions be debated.
Mr. cuRTEIs thought the House and the country were
much indebted to the Hon. Member fur Finsbury for the way
in which he had taken up the question. He thought the Hon.
Member for Finsbury ought to be joined with the Noble Lord
in bringing forward the resolution.—( Cheers.) It would not
be fair to the Hon. Member for Finsbury, if, after all his ex-
ertions, the Noble Lord should alone have the credit of bring.
ing forward the resolution.-7-(Cheers.)
Air. O'CONNELL wished to know if there was any ques.
tion of adjournment before the House.

The SPEAKER said there was not.
Mr. O'CONNELL could not see how they could lose any-
thing by adjourning the debate until after the day when the
Noble Lord would bring forward his resolutions. There would
be no compromise in consenting to such a proposition. They
were all still of the same opinion that they had been, and by
consenting to the adjournment they might perhaps get rid of
all difficulty. He would therefore move that the debate be
adjourned to Friday next.
Mr. COWPER would willingly have pressed his motion to
a division at once, but as he did not see any great inccnve-
nience from the adjournment, he v ould consent to it, although
ho must say that he thought the simplest way of settling the
question would be to receive the petition, inasmuch as it ap-
peared that the objection to receiving it rested solely on a point
of practice; and in his (Mr. Cowper's) opinion, the simplest
way of reversing a practice was at once to introduce a con-
trary practice. He could not sit down without complimenting
the Right Hon. Baronet on the manner in which he had given
way to the feeling of the House. He would not objeet to the
debate being adjourned to Friday.
The debate was then adjourned to Friday.
VICTORIA PARK BILL.
The Victoria Park Bill was read a second time.
NOTICES OF MOTION.
Mr. WALLACE gave notice that, in the everrt of the in-
come tax being carried, he should move, on putting the main
question, that the words Great Britain be omitted, and the
word England only be substituted.—(A laugh.)
Mr. O'CONNELL gave notice of his intention to move for

...............,..„,...........,,„„,„
a a ittee to inquire into the spiritual destitution of die ,
11,
,iii soldiers in India.
AFFGHANISTAN-
Mr, ESTCOURT wished to ask the Right Hon. Gentloon'
the late President of the Board of Control, whether al;
lain papers, which had been laid on the table of the linn'f
he years 1839 and 1840, relative to Indian affairs, contaiiiw,,s
,riy Justification of the Government of which the Right 091' .+
Gentleman was a member, for the expedition to Affghanist*"".
Sir JOHN C. HOBHOUSE said that the Hon. Gentl,el.
man who put the question to him would of course permit bll
(Sir J. C. Hobhouse) to remind him of what had ocirga,g
vith reference to the circumstance. Her Majesty, in `74)
.peech which she had addressed to both Houses of Parliaaien'
,a the opening of the session of 1839, had informed theii of
his expedition having been undertaken. In the course ortl4,
ession of that year the Right Hon. Baronet opposite care(
i hope that every information would be given respecting t""
aoceeding. Subsequently, in both Houses of Parliarrienti
he production of papers on the subject was repeatedly s'irif
'or. Those papers were produced. No less than seven setsL°
,iapers were produced, of which four referred to eorrespon''-
.nee which had boen engaged in between the Governor-Cre;',
ieral of India and his councilors. The late Governine°.;;
onsidered that those papers would give to the Houses of P4r; ',
,lament an opportunity of forming a fair judgment upon ' i
.natter.—(Hear, hear.) NVhat that judgment was, if it le•
rue that si'ence gave consent, they had a ril,,
to form a pretty correct idea of ; for the Right Hon. Gen`.e.-
'llan, the present Secretary of State for the Home Depaetnirni
'saving fixed a motion for the :?.(1 of April, 1839, with r Wroii '
'n Indian affairs generally, no more was heard of the inc4i,
after the product'on of the papers. Besides, those papers';3l.'
:ould inform the Hon. Gentlemen that the Governor-Gooe'%;
,f India published a proclamation in which the matter 11'0 r '••:
plained. He could only say, in conclusion, that those volio,.
nous papers had been prepared wills the greatest care. ..nbg -,
Mr. LABOUCHERE wished to put. a que.stion to the Weer,
flon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Treasury, with rrttetH:,
to the amended copy of the tariff. He wished to know irWert'.
,he Right Hon. Baronet would have any objection to iWt.i.
the amount of existing duty opposite to each article, and e
'he amount of revenue actually received last year ? tie.
Sir ROBERT PEEL said he would take the sugges
~
nto his consideration. With respect to a great narnbc,
01
01
articles it would be easy to adopt the suggestion. The °,..A
difficulty was that the specification of many of the articles 01
been altered.
Mr. LABOUCHERE had understood that it was done ii. `,
'he first tariff.
w Bit ,r;
After a few words from Mr. GLADSTONE, Lord „ r on-
sEI.L, and Sir R. PEEL, the papers were laid on the table.
..
CHURCH P.
Mr. LAMBTON begged toR kO nowPERTY Com the Right .:11_,;,inli.,';
Baronet, in pursuance of the motion of which he had al; ~
notice " whether it was the intention of her Majesty's Garent
merit to propose any legislation this Session on the sntre IR' ,
the enfranchisement of Church leasehold property 3° i
hought the subject was too important to be entrusted into
other hands but those of the Government. &Di,
Sir R. PEEL said he could not hold out any expectoe
that her Majesty's Government would propose any legit i- '
on the subject.

THE TARIFF. qtai
Lord EBRINGTON said he wished to ask a question tie,
Right Hon. Gentleman, the President of the. Board of TTlss,
He observed that in the proposed new tariff, the duty 00 0 it',;;
,
had been much reduced, whilst that on hops remained
..,4,',,,
was. He wished to know if the Right Hon. Gentleman 1/7"•'.
allow the duty on hops to be re considered. tbeS,''
Mr. GLADSTONE said that the rates of duties on soil .
articles had been adjusted with due consideration ; at the oi. ,
time that he said that, he should add that they were anigoary
to give an opportunity to all parsons to be heard ; the se , ,
was still open, and still subject to consideration. •
ELECTION COMMITTEES.
..tti
Mr. R. WASON rose to call the attention of the Nee- itgi •
the practice adopted by Counsel before its Committeo, 'go,
the view of providing a remedy, having for its object tli
vantage of the suitors, and upholding the dignity of 0814,0
cial tribunals of this House. The Hon. Member spoke' fps
low a tone of voice, and amidst considerable noise la
House, that we could. scarcely hear a word of, to
Honourable Gentleman's speech. Ho was understoo° s
say, that the motion was for the purpose of apPlYiffsee
remedy to the evil which existed of employing ...ass
Counsel before Committees, by which great expense was taly(l4
unnecessarily on the suitors. In altering this practice, heed
not wish at all to affect the interest of the Counsel, or to Mutat
their fees, for lie hoped that his motion would have the effilot
relieving the suitor without at all affecting the Counsel. not
been said that the public had a remedy in their own handhos
he (Mr. Wasen) could not agree with such a supposition. ~.sg
greatest injustice and inconvenience was likely to arise "ciet.
the very expensive nature of proceedings as now cease
thil
before Committees. In the year 1832, he remember
the Noble Lord, then Member for Dorchester, and now 01.1441 .
ber for Dorsetshire (Lord Ashley), having a pettyOS
presented against his return, rose, and said in, 40.
place with characteristic manliness, that he had of , I
doubt as to the validity of his return, but that be V*
not prepared to undergo the enormous expense of defendljoga.; .
seat before an Election Committee. The constituents o'oll,,
Noble Lord came to his assistance on that occasion, and be,o, '
declared to have been duly returned. That was, howeeertise
instance of the great evils of the present system ; and it .1
manifestly desirable that that system should be remedit".°_*,sr
was a notorious fact, that the petition was presented 190 4
that Hon. Gentleman, merely for the purpose of putting ot ..
to extraordinary expense. The consequence was, that s'!ig..,
gentlemen, though differing from him in politics, stlbscricif e
many thousands for the purpose of defending his seat.
,e4O !
it not notorious, that they could neither attack nor do'co. ,'
seat, without an expense of many thousand pounds? .1
that would be decided in tho Courts of Lew for a few ha t e , '
before that House cost as many thousands:44n the toilet,. - ,
...,
that ever occupied them, the Committe were obliged to "464 •'
01
on one Saturday, because they could not get Counsel to er..4,
The expense of that adjournment was enormous to the b,
He remembered a story that was told him of Mr. Ilarris°.. iiii
a Member of this House; the Hon. Member being "V'st
Court of Exchequer, found Mr. Harrison warming his°, O.
the fire, when he said to him, " Why, Mr. Harrison, ti,"
at least a score of Members calling out for you in the
,r,',00
of Commons."—" I should wonder if there were not,'. 6010 ,
Mr. Harrison ; " for I am engaged in twelve election riosiet
and as I cannot attend all of them, I think I am dile -00 .
perfect justice by attending to none."—(Hear, heilf.',oo .
laughter.) He thought it was not right to limit the nom ,
of Counsel who should appear before those Cess'"%itits,•':
They ought to leave it to the judgment of the .
for'. :
how „many Counsel they would employ. The , ~
lotion on their books was evaded every day•-lt. of
'i
of
mere waste paper, and it ought ito be rescinded,
if lie could get the House to adopt the resolutions that 10
about to propose, and which he thought would meet, and
meet, the exigencies of the case, he would himself
,e 4
that the present resolution be rescinded. The rose!' O,A
f.
po
which he was about to propose to the House were—sittibsil..4;
parties attending before a Committee of the House, anger,
ing liberty to be heard by Counsel, shall, at the first 11/,• 4,1;.
deliver to the Chairman the names of the Counsel r°500•:,!•
by them; and, secondly, that on no account should sot it
eel appear before two Committees on the same day, nwe.eolleil '
of them should have closed its proceedings. What ohl eel
should there be to those resolutions? the only interegt"
could possibly be affected by it would be the il3, el+ '
of some few Counsel, but he even doubted "„eiete*
mately it would not be for the benefit of Counsel theo,,„oese
He would not have the least objection to postpone tb4;o;
tion of these resolutions until the close of the present ° Il°
but every one must see the necessity for an alteratioe.dgiti
ha called upon them to take care that they did not allows.
out of that House to shake their purses in the faces of lT
ood
Members, inducing them to submit to compromise to herh
expense; and, on the other hand, not to let Hon. Mcia the
who unjustly retained their seats, shake their purse', hoe to
faces of honest and bona fide petitioners, and defy *chides
proceed on the same ground. . The Hon. Member con ,
by moving the resolutions.
Mr. WALLACE seconded the motion.
The SPEAKER then put the question. es.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM wished to know whether i! of.
competent for the Hon. and Learned Member to prore
resolutions till he had rescinded the Standing Order.
0, order
The SPEAKER said he thought that the Brandin
ought to be rescinded first. di4
Mr. WASON said he did not interfere with the Staple
Order. He only sought to add the two resolutions
Standing Order.
Ober t,
The SPEAKER said he understood the Hen. lge A
confine Counsel to one Committee. eatre"
Mr. WASON said he did not care if the number of
were unlimitted. • ter
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that he understood tberint 'ill
tion of the Hon. and Learned Member to be to resins
oser,
number of Counsel, He had not himself much exper_„HlostitY
the subject of Election Committees, but he had fl7O ,4'
attended them, and his experience would lead hir°.. eft'
notwithstanding that some inconvenience did arise fr. 7-0 IP
nent Counsel being employed in more than one case,; flea
business was conducted with great ability, and if the ice
Gentleman's resolutions were carried, it might devicsue tot;
in many cases from engaging eminent Counsel. 11',...° C°° JO'
tion the Hun. Gentleman proposed was, to confine '-',..1e JO' '
some particular province in his profession. He (' ' the rs;
Graham) felt bound, for the sake of others, to 0pe°58.,4 ,0
position. Nothing, in his opinion, would be more uo.loTehetlrs
io restrict parties in the selection of the Counsel they „s o_,,d,
employ, especially when the parties themsel%pno .
cognizant of the circumstances in which the lawyer ei*, itto of
Up( n the whole, he must say that he d,d not see 01' ieet'ho
venience from the practice now prevailing of emploYll'ess, ,g
eminent talents and great experience, arid the busy are t.. 70...
thought, was satisfactorily conducted. He was not t,‘,. Geo!,,
suitors had any reason of complaint. The Honeurabeloo
loorAr
man was likely to be engaged in anElection Coronaitishe 14 e
and he would then be able to judge for himself 0 .....1„ OP°
or otherwise of the present practice. He would certain '
to
the resolutions of the Right Hon. Gentleman. ~ intended
Mr. W YNN said that the existing rule was ner°,'
it
to prevent the employment of any number ch it Pe,
but in order to save the time of the Houseaorsit,ed
vented more than two being heard before the hid, a f&o.
Ile recollected that an Election Committee, 01A,egiooaouse
of his was a member—he meant the Middlesex "„'" the `:ii 0f
mittee—sat a much greater number of hours tl,l3Lted t•P,,ber
of Lords had for seven years during the celeeloo, Neitide•
Warren Hastings. If the propositions of the .„ one ge„arti-
were carried into effect, they would have to retalienaol.rosto
man for the whole Session, because who could tell sc aosrb- 0
cular election petition would be heard? Every ono ivWould h-icsh
engage the best practitioners they 0 mid, and °lola of 1 Heine
ber be employed for the whole Session, during the: non. 113 e
time they were to receive no other retainer. „ito Wan be
ber here lowered his voice so much, that he was q" • n t°s" os
in the gallery; he was understood to sa n conelusic°o,:ad pit
did not see how the proposal of the lion. Member
one
tically be carried out. eel i, d
Mr. WALLACE said, he was sure that ho Pa
MeMber lUable
must have felt much indebted to the II". , of his Ca' ..ion
just sat down, and who had devoted so n
muc
for the esPreioas
time to the practices of Election Committees,
_r. wapsoeigint
of his opinions or, this question, and he (.51
iqnutintethcee rintaiinndsthoaft
tthhoeseope,iininioloyseeheenihpandseedx
grievous -sloe
The expense of Election Committees w•as.weed 0 se° 'test
was a grievous and gro wing evil—andl
he
system wasc
___.
remedy. One great objection to the present_.o
nuttee to Qtr;is
Counsel ran from place to place, and from t) in
note, but it was
was a Joe Miller story or , Harrison,
..°2*"lo
mittee.—( Hear, hear. ) He did not inosv _!'blieolthoerried.3ll
it,aotetsoredin.nnetile.ril
ililtr. he might
Abu
cases, that it 1 his
said,true or
eThief
hleatehademinnnetntaetCnoalulynseslarid
said it, that he was engaged on so many
keep
his fees t .
be no more than justice to the pal
Ifesthe Couti.el couldenviver!
pocket without speaking a word.
Wallace) could not understand hew g I
at one time.
more places than one
oula " they could not be in
in that House c (
_.e
_.,
could not understand how their friends
..
their duty, was it just for them to takeentt.leientirenfe,esk?nevyllingithhet
value for it. li
isil;o
to
11,
fend them in taking money without
House. He would not allow himself.b
toring he had been i et
he at once adjourned the Court, considering
the first Counse _
suited. He (Mr. Wallace) thatbelieved
hear, and laughter.) Lord Denmangihvaindg
.seethnanpneixeadmupleen,
10..
whom that visitation was made. He believed.____,.. He b°
Pr:
whom Lord Denman shut his %Jou"• But n'
was one upon
case.
ree
the bar—the first official Member of thatllouiseitrwwasm7Beo'rt:t
to see this principle followed in the presentf
professional inter
t
in that House—as almost every family
it almon'A.
of the profession—that was
Hoare for b“ comprised members
in that
was afraid there was too much
ofparon
sib's to And a favourable consideration any Rote lostgle:J