The Sun.
London, England, 1820-10-21 00:00:00

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r. rowel' as to the a.nthentiCity of the
extracts
made by him.
Lord DONOUGIIMORE said that the House
ould do justice to their character by opening the
n or as wide as possible for the introduction of
1:o1lnth,
but They must take care not to admit an
hp_reper violation of confidence.
to Xtkile Marquess of LANSDOWN had no objection
ifue,,amendment of his Noble Friend, coming
th;-",u'd) to unite all opinions with respect to
u
h.B important question. Seeing that a mystery
badng over this subject from the beginning, he
apn always been for a Secret. Committee being
gr'st"ted to inquire into it. He had heard with
Loaet Pleasure what had fallen from a Noble
ecl! who had spoke from the Gallery ; and.he
IIY joined him in recommending to every
te,°2-lie Lord who was a Member of the Commit-
to abstain from seeking any information ex-
cept that which related to the mission of Rastelli.
theat.,recornmendation could not be embodied, in
s'lape of a motion ; but the House. could con-
-1,4 la the honour of the individuals ivho corn-
'Led the Committee.
ticia,°rd LAUDERDALE was adverse to the inves-
ob'i `l°ll of this subject altogether ; but as, the
he 1:;°° of the House seemed to be in favour of it,
imild Waive his objection, protesting, how-
tesrs.against the production of the original cor-
rQa°,,n, dence., which he contended would be a
of the confidence between principal and
gent.
1, tar'
a --.1.1t1, in wishing to verify the extracts
reference to the original correspondence,
4 l•,-„1. Meant that such parts of the letters should
ttliilsPected which related to the mission of Ras-
' a" from'
the extracts were made.
Thewhich
thr. Larl of CiartAuvorr said, that although
'vet.' was a general understanding that they
to i' by this measure, opening wide the doors
against they were in fact shutting them
znali.e - They called on Mr. Powell to
'ltch „uut bis own case, and to bring forward
I'l'hete-tracts as lie pleased, without knowing
Ptolver.esr the extracts were garbled or not. If the
ordi;.(4 the Committee were thus limited, their
tiojussi--;Ps would neither satisfy themselves nor
for,th:Ce to the Queen. Had not the whole case
case' b Prosecution, and perhaps more than the
nowiren submitted to a Secret Committee ? and
tee tn„Was proposed to confine a Secret Commit-
g4rbf the examination,of extracts, which might be
nligiP'? such extracts as an Agent for the Bill
Pro-c; Noose to furnish. Before their Lordships
Coin,-,"(l,ed to such a measure he thought the
state-'l,ei for the Queen should be called in, and
°I ",„°w far it was likely to affect the defence
itiltirriAajesty..- Without this, he conceived that
Perso4-I°"dships would not give satisfaction to any
TI'L or party.
Alarqu
ess of LINSDOWN thonght, that
l'lte'-iisqo had nothing to
•do
inquiring why its
:"rinvuad been disobeyed. The object of the
tOr tsar
to see whether Mr. Powell had mullet.
the Drect statement at the Bar of that House.
tl'vers of that Committee were not adequate
Pet‘'tel- te4d they were appointed for, it was coin
it to them to ask new powers from the
`9loise. Their object was to elicit the truth, the
at ;Toth, and nothing but the truth, so as to
Perciile bottom of the transaction. He should
tilPfOrliP' tile amended motion, in preference to
anal.
~ of l/ARNARVON thought the• Committee
l'ot I.)e in an awkward situation if they had
seel'",,Power to inspect the letters themselves,
"tr c-,.1` the extracts submitted to them were
`vou'i,Cl Without that power the Committee
‘-` completely in the hands' of Mr. Powell.
e CmanY thought there was no necessity for
Thar, thmmtttee being vested with any, other power
1941 of Verifying the extracts with the or
%SS; That he thOught was every power the
r, Th-eciould give.
."3111) CHANCELLOR then put the question,
cliNledell.dd by Earl GREY, when the House
Corte
„t, • •
12t
il*COtitents
14 fa,ol Majority
-43
„.
tl
of the appointment of a Secret Committee.
.°lllnvrin Peers were then appointed on
'e°ltnilittl() „
°uneil rd Pres; ~„‘t of
the Lord Ellenborough
Earl a Lauderdale •
(,h ey
oral "f li,, 131 1 Lord Erskine
Lord 'dorets Lord Ross
I Lord Amherst
I Marquess of Lansdown.
1% ii°lllr re-admission'into the House, we found
1)4.448, caji3i....u_nnAm addressing their• Lordships. . He
th luvg to their r4collection, that when Mr.
en, I as under examination' on Saturday,
co 40,181 •
„ ups had been pleased to call in the
Citlatio "11 b Oth Side§ to take a part in the ex-
open 4-la-% consequence of which they had
into Parties to the inquiry which was going.
am, the fact
tit g tak of an obstruction of justice
b • en place. He submitted, therefore,
're lig thus parties to the inquiry, they
1,14_, entitled
r to see :the correspondence
I„„ waled to the alleged obstruction,
-14 I"; ed to
to know, whether their
Ar \tith sl.ps A
such 41". would assist her Majesty's Counsel
ipesent edus•as might be necessary, either at
fags' for pu
I'l4, f °l' at any future stage of the roceed-
°rY "slung the investigation toga satis-
-1411 ;
had • , The examination of Mr.
t be 11 been partially gone into;• it
the (14r. .;;cessary to call that Gentleman again.
itaori.c.,,:esetioctio_ll.)oriFigiohtarn) thought that the truth of
be got at without securing the
oes to- the whole correspondence of the
410 whichi,if there was nothing wrong, there
"t444l"se,,,Zilinnloatohj•ection. " Your Lordships, I
"`i Itast , e nlquiry into the motives which
!hat tell]. being sent away, for it is impos-
-1„„ ation can proceed with that course of exa-
'Rtli ' Proving the conspiracy that I have al-
:0,111,1411:.'„10,6fret: dssattnloctan examine this witness. The
en
37, ce was broken off by his absence,
examine him, I hope and trust
that
ses_nPs will allow us to examine the per-
t "t Rastelli away—Mr. Powell."
not •" tiotti -
lit
ins ' .'IIANCELLOR said, that he had it
krUction from the House to make any

answer to the proposition of the Learned Gen
tleman.

The Earl of CARNARNON said, that it was im-
possible her Majesty'S Counsel could prove the
innocence ..of their client, if persons wha Came
and swore to her guilt were to be sent out of the
country after they had perjured themselves, and
were not liable to punishment for their offences.
As a wish had been expressed by her Majesty's
Counsel to that effect, he would now move that
Mr. Powell be called to the Bars

The LORD CHANCELLOR said) briefly, that
nothing could be more dangerous than such a
course of proceeding. lie would not enter into
arguMent upon it ; he would content himself
with saying—Not content.'
Lord LIVERPOOL thought that the preferable
period for again examining Mr. Powell, if airy
further examination was necessary, would be when
he appeared at the bar with those parts of the
correspondence which the House had just order-
edhim to produce. e

Lord HOLLAND said, that a select, that is, a
Secret Committee had been appointed ; and that
Committee was not, they knew, to divulge any
thing that was brought out before them, either
to the Counsel or to the public. There never
was so strange, so absurd, so anomalous, and
so mysterious a proceeding. An obstruction
of justice had taken place, and the Queen's
Counsel had a right to fully complete the
Inquiry that had been begun by their Lordships ;
they had a right to sift the motives that
induced Mr. Powell to send Rastelli out of the
country. They ought to have Mr. Powell placed,
at the bar, and the Queen's Counsel ought-to be
allowed to elicit from him the whole truth of this
scandalous affair, that the injustice of the case
might be completely developed.' The Inquiry
had not been complete, conclusive, or satisfac-
tory. Her Majesty\'s Counsel were as much in-
terested io it as their Lordships, and the same
feeling which had induced their Lordships to
direct that the correspondence between the par-
ties should be laid before a Select or Secret Com-
mittee, led her Majesty's Counsel to seek after
the same satisfaction by other means. They
only wished for that information which their
Lordships had for themselves desired and taken
steps to obtain. ' They could not have access to
The correspondence laid before the Secret Coln-
mittee ; they were not even, in strictness, sup-
posed to know any thing of the existence of that
Committee. They wished to pursue the in-
quiry begun to a complete and satisfactory con-
clusion; and their Lordships would be acting a most
inconsistent and unjust. part if they did not af-
ford them every necessary co-operation. If they,
were not likely in this detestable proceeding ul-
timately to arrive at substantial justice, they had
better cut the gordian knot, and give up the case
at once. It had been said that Bills of Pains
and Penalties formed part of the Constitutional
Laws of this Country—he should like for the
Noble Lords to. state what was the mode of re-
ceiving evidence in such proceedings, and whe-
ther it was confined to the practice of the Courts
below. The only object the House ought to con-
sider was the justice of the case, and if in pro-
ceeding-after the defence of the case had been
completely broken in upon, it was impossible for
her Majesty to have justice, the contemptible
proceeding had better be given up.
Lord ELLENBOHOUGiI thought that the ab-
straction of ltastelli should be considered in two
points of view ; first, as an obstruction to her
Majesty's defence, and second, as a breach of
privilege. It was under the first point of view
alone that the House had determined that Coun-
sel should be called to take a part in the exami-
nation of Mr. Powell. As a question of privi-
lege, the Counsel had nothing to do with the bu-
siness ; and it was on a question of privilege
alone that he conceived the correspondence had
been ordered to he laid before a Select Com-
mittee. The appointment of that Committee was
not therefore, he conceived, any objection to re-
calling and examining Mr. Powell, with respect
to the alleged obstruction of justice ; but he
would not consent that he should be called, on
an abrupt motion for that purpose, without any
special application having been made "by the
Counsel for her Majesty.
Lord DARNLEY did not know with what ap-
pearance of justice their Lordships could, refuse
the request of Counsel to examine Mr. Powell
at the Bar. He could not sufficiently express
his contempt at this odious and contemptible
proceeding. The House had sat for the last
three days without advancing one single step.
On coming down to the House in a morning, and
seeing the formidable apparatus that surrounded
it, he could scarcely believe himself awake, but
that he was still in a feverish dream. These pro-
ceedings would be interminable, unless they got
rid of them at once, and the sooner they did that
the better.

The LORD CHANCELLOR put the question, that
Mr. Powell be now called to the bar, which was
negatived without a division 4

Mr. BRo u Am.—My Lords, we will now_call
another witness.

ATAXANDRO OLIVIERI was then called, and sworn.
Mr. TYNDALL.—Q. Were you ever in the ser-
vice of the Viceroy Of Italy I have been.
You served in the army in Russia ?—i did
Were you taken prisoner there was.
When did you return from Russia?—On the nth of Fe-
bruary, 1815.
Were von afterwards in the French army ?--.Yes.
What rank did you hold in that army ?—That of Colonel.
When did you first see her Royal Highness the Princess
of Wales?—ln the year 1816, when she was at her Villa at
Como.

Who introduced you to her Royai Highness ?—Baron Ca-
ratetti.

Do you recollect ever seeing her Royal Highness at Rome ?
—I do.

When was it ?—ln 1817, when she came to Rome and re-
twined there.

When did she leave Rome ?—The beginning of June.
Did her Royal Highness give you any invitation to visit at
her house ?—Many times; she did me the honour to in•
vice me to her table.

Did she ever invite you to her Villa at Pesaro?—She gave
me all invitation in the month of November.
__

Did you pay her a visit ?—Yes, on the 11th November.
' Was her Royal Highness living at that time at the Villa
Caprini ?--Yes, she was.
Was any proposition made to you to join her RoYal High
ness's suite ?—There was.

t
In What situation was 'yon to join her. suite ?—As one at-
tached to•her Court, without eniployment.
How long did yots serve in that capacity ?-(=-1 continued so
till the 14th of November, in the following year.
The whole of the year 1815 ?—Yes.
Did you then receive any other appointment bad the
honour of being one of her Chamberlains; I was to receive
salary.
Was you the sole Chamberlain, or did you act jointly with
.some other person ?—Tlitre was nobody but Bergami and
myself.

How long did you remain in the situation of her Majesty's
Chamberlain ?—To the beginning of last February.
Do you receive at this time any pension or salary from her
Majesty ?—1 do,not.
Have you received any since the time you left ber service
—I have not. •

Are you a married man ?—1 am.-
Have you any family ?—A slaughter.
‘Vhere do your wife and daughter live ?—At Rome.
Were they at any time while you were in her Majesty's
service with you ?—Never.
Du yon live with them when you are-at home do.
Do you. recollect her Majesty being at Rome in 1517 ?
About that time her Royal Highness set out from Rome.
For what pait-did she set out ?—She set out for Senegaglia.
Do you remember whether it was the evening when she set
out ?—lt was evening ; I sumed with her Royal Highness.
What time in the eveningdid she set out ?—About midnight,
Did you hand her Royal Highness into her carriage ?—I
had that honour.
To what sort of carriage did von hand her ?—lt was a
Carolini ; what I should in English call a chariot; a lan-
daulet.

Besides her Royal Highness, who w•as in the carriage ?
The Countess Oldi, Chamberlain Bergaini, and a small child
yictorine. •

Do you remember whether N'assali 4.as on that journey ?
I do.
Was Mr. Hownam also ?—Yes.
Did you st:e them both in their carriage ?—I saw them and
bowed to them.

Have you ever travelled yourself in the same carriage ?—I
have travelled in it, but did ❑ot travel in it on that occasion.
Do you know the carriage well ?—Yes, I know it.
Do yoU know who rode as courier from Rome on that occa-
sion ?—I saw Carlo Forti as a courier.

During the time you were Chamberlain with Bergami, what
were the manners and conduct of Bergami towards her Ma-
jesty ?—His conduct was that of a respectful servant. - •
Did you ever see any thing improper or indecorous in his
conduct towards her ?-7-Never.

When her Royal Highness was at Rome, who were the per.-
sons who visited her?—Many e: the first Roman nobility.
Can you nor C any of them ?—Cardinal Gonsalvo, Ruffo,
Cardinal Cachagatzi, and several others.
Do you recollect Baroness Andlean' ?—The Princess An-
dreani was with her Royal Highness as dame d'honneur.
Did you ever see her Royal Highness in company with his
Holiness the Pope ?—No.—(A laugh.)
Did you ever see her Royal Highness with the Countess
Gomerelli ?—I do not knout.

Do you know the Printe and Princess Gabrielli ?—I do.
Did they make visits at the house of ber Royal Highness ?
—They did many times.
At Pesaro was her Royal Highness visited by persons of the
first nobility, the Archbishop of Modena and others ?—Nut
at Pesaro, but at Modena, when her Royal Highness was
there.

Do you know whether Bergami. has been received at the
houses of the best families at Rowe, When her Royal High-
ness was not there ?—1 have been present many times when
he was so received.

Have you seen her Royal Highness, *hens*alking, take
the arm of any gentleman of her suite have also some-
times had that honour.

What was the conduct and demeanor of her Royal High-
ness to persons of her suite I—Affable, but at the same time
dignified.
When her Royal Highness appeared abroad in the morning;
who generally attended her ?—All those who belonged to her
Court.

How did she generally pass her morning ?—After having
taken breakfast, she went to take an airing in her carriage,
and then she passed some time in her library, or writing.
Who generally attended her Royal Highness on these oc-
casions?--If you ask me during all the time her Royal High-
ness was at Rome, I cannot tell ; hut if you ask during the
time I was in her service, I will explain.
I refer to the time you were in her service ?—During the
time her Royal Highness was at Pesaro, she saw much society.
Was her company composed of persons in her ofvn suite?
—Yes, sometimes.

Doyou know whether her Royal Highness ever used a car-
riage which had au apron to it while at Pesaro 3—l tiever'saw
such a thing. .
Do you know whether the ever had such a carriage ?—I
cannot say, never having seen one.
Cross-examined by the ATTORNEY-GENERAL.
Q. What countryman are you ?—A. Of Tivoli. 1 was born
there, hut 1 live at Rowe. _ . _

Where did you live when you were first in the service Ober
Ror•al Highness ?—I was returning front France to Rome.
How long had you been in France ?—I remained in France
till the end of the year 1815; I then went to Milan, and
thence to Rome.

Then you left France at the end of 1815?--Yes.
I ask how long you had been in France ?—I remained in
France-till the year 1815, then•l went to Milan, and then I
went to Rome in 1t416.