The Sun.
London, England, 1827-03-29 00:00:00

ROMAN CATHOLICS.

The Duke of RUTLAND presented petitions from the
inhabitants of the borough of Leicester, and from the in-
habitants and rector of the parish of St. Mary's, Leicester,
praying that no further concessions may be made to the
Roman Catholics. . .

-----
The Bishop of CHESTER presented a similar petition
from the Vicar and inhabitants of a parish iu Bedford-
shire.
Lord KING, in presenting a petition from the Catholics
of Ireland, relative to the Test Oaths, +said, that the peti-
tioners complained, and lee thought most justly complained,
of the cruel slanders east upon them and upon their faith,
by that law which requires every person Galled upon to
Take a seat in the Legislature, or to perform the duties of a
public office, to take certain oaths, by which every Judge,
Bishop, or Sheriff, was obliged to declare the Catholic re-
ligion was an execrable superstition, and the Caboli4.3
themselves to be base idolatoes. This proceeding the pe-
titioners state most truly to be wholly unjustifiable. That
House had seen many petitions presented by various per-
sons against the calumnies Leaped upon the Catholic reli-
gion by the Protestants. Those petitions were presented
principally, however, he ought to say, by the Reverend
.fseech, and from their own Clergy, and he would say,
that they stated any thing but that which might be called
in accordance with Christian charity, or likely to
aesist in the promotion of harmony and union lee-
tweeze the sects. They, however, who thus com-
plained of the calumnies of the Catholic++, had shown
their discretion in the method of retaliating, or ra-
ther, he ought to say, their total want of discretion, and
much good might it do them. He had lately been reading
esome German Papers, and felt extreme gratification to
observe that the King of Prussia had expressed himself
pleeeeed with the conduct of a Protestant Pastor and a Ca-
tholic who had exerted themselves to promote liar-
many and pease between the sects; and when he read the
account of the ia,!euarch's approbation having been be-
stowed
upon them, he conid not help exclaiming, Oh,
happy people, and happy country ! where nothing is to be
gained by the profession of higoti7 And intolerance,—where
you are not called upon to sacrifice every other considera-
tion to please the advocates of Protestant Ascendancy--and
where the road to power is not through the presentation of
pestilential petitions from Protestant Parsons, nor from the '
scrutiny of pamphlets, still more pestilential, to be after-
wards preached as sermons in a chapel not very far from
that House, in order to tickle up the Noble anil Learned
Lord who sat not far from him. --(Hear, hear. Pruasia
there were no attempts to make proselytes by mischievous
and mistaken zealots, or uncandid and aspiring politicians
—men who would not suit their own views—declare a
crusade against the Catholics, and declars the finger of God
to be visible in every movement. Enthusiasts in religion
say think, and artful politicians may be ready to say,
whether they think it or not—that the Almighty favours
their enterprise ; but, unless these modern crusader'
posseee a greater degree of inspiration than their prede-
cessors of old, the advance they have yet made must
be taken as a very bad omen of the future success of their
attempts upon the idolatrous and benighted Irish :(hear) ;
attempts which—to quote the expressions so happily used
by a daily paper, when speaking of the success of coneer-
sion—are likely to be quite as feasible as a plan for bottling
the Atlantic. (Hear,) They had an authority of the
highest kind, against this attempt at conversion, delivered
in a public charge to those moat intimately connected with
those who were to be the objects of their exertions, and
therefore well worth their attention—he meant the Charge
of the Archbishop of Cashel to his Clergy, ie which he de-
c.4ares it to be his opinion, that the attempt to convert the
Irish to be doubtful at any time, but that, under present
circumst.2aces, he considers it not only unedrisable, but
fraught with danger to religion, and even to Christianity
itself. (Hear, !war.) He might indeed, to the attempt et
conversion in the present titres, apply the same illustration
which had been forrneely used iu affairs of finance, that they
were not to endeavour to !eY up a few pepper-corns, at the
expence perhaps of millions. The converts had been
few, and the attempt to extend them he considered futile,
whatever might be the political process to be adopted by
those performers on the polemical stage, who were ready
to cry woe, aye and to indict woe when they met with op-
position, or when inatters were not agreeable to their par-
ticular views. He had no doubt, howeeer, that they were
ready, in defence of their own principles, to undergo all the
martyrdom of promotion, and to disport themselves in the
flames of gratified ambition; there Ins sees for the present
very ready to leave them.
Upon the petition bring read,
Earl STANHOPE observed, that his Noble Friend, in
the o.
heern made he ade with respect to the state of the
sec*, !sesia, and the treatment they received from the
State, entil;ely overleeked the fact, that in Germany there
were no popuLar Constitutions..(Hear.)—lf there were
no elements of a popular Conatituflon in this country, he
would be as as the Noble Baron to concede to the
Roman Catholics the whole of their demands ; but in a
countr where all the
instindtions are decidedly and
yen-
tirely Protestant, he wee convince 4 no further powers
could with safety be granted to them. He
was not at
that moment about to elite into the question, re he ap-
Preheeelee be would have an 6pportunity of stating is
opinion more at larg hereafter : test he could not help
g,
observin - e
nt. Ireland, that remedy must be 3ppliod to the state
evils under whi.aTtould strike at the very root of those
present suffered.
strong Bishop
' :STER, notwithetant ling the very
• '_ direct peison 1 allusions of the Noble
;WWI 017;9"° ('.9t4 Xing), allirsiou. vhitia Le had dads

in language extended far beyond the usual Parliamentary li-
cense, would have been contented to listen to the Noble Lord's
observations in silence, and to have practised that lesson of
Christian charity which he seemed not yet to have learned
—a lesson which taught him never to apply hard words
to the innocent and unoffending-, had he not felt the sub-
ject which gave rise to those observations of an import-
ance too paramount to permit him to let the Noble Lord's
remarks pass unanswered. The Noble Lord had been
pleased to express himself in terms of very great contempt
of the idea of Reformation, and to give to the language lie
had made use of respecting an interpretation, very hostile
to its true claming. and very much at variance with the
spirit of Christian charity. If they were to believe in Re-
formation at all, or in the accounts of those events by
which the moat remarkable Reformations were preceded,
they must be prepared to admit that some signs were to he
shown when Ireland was to be enlightened—that some
symptoms must be manifest to point uut the time when the
work was to be undertaken. And if there were at present
in Ireland some of those symptoms apparent, whether
forced forward by the premature encouragement of
individuals, or the effect of the approach of the time
when they were to be enlightened, was it not, he
would ask, the duty of • Christian teacher not to cast re-
proach and rebuke upon those appearances of the reception
of truth, but rather to foster and encourage it by pre-
cept and by exertion ? With reference to the observation
which he had made in that House upon the hope of the
conversion of the Catholics, and which the Noble Lord had
made the subject of so much comment, the expression that
"he thought he saw the finger of God in the recent con-
version of the Catholics of Ireland, and that woe would be
to these who should presume to lift up their hands and
voices in rain and impotent attempting to stem the flood of
Gospel light that was bursting over the country," he begged
to say most distinctly, that he did not intend to declare spi-
ritual or temporal woe to those who opposed the will of
the Meat High. But he would repeat, that if any man did
attempt to stand up against the will of God, and oppose
his puny efforts to the will which was thus declared, woe
would be to him sooner or later. He had only one word
more to add in speaking words of encouragement to those
who were engaged in the work of reformation ; he had
endeavoured, as a Member of the Legislative Assembly,
to speak in terms of prudence and caution of those evils
which in such an attempt were to be avoided, and to guard
against that kind of hostile opposition which nothing but
the union of great worldly wisdom with the most devoted
piety could possibly counteract, and he hoped that in doing
so he had not made use of any expressions or indulged in
any hopes which were averse to the profession and to the
practice of a Minister of God—(Hear, hear.)

Lord HOLLAND did not wish by any means to prolong
the present conversation, which he thought could not tend
to any useful purpose, which he knew was moat irrelevant
to the petition then before the House, and which he could
not avoid declaring to be altogether unconnected with the
great question upon which they had been so frequently
called tw decide. He could not, however, suffer the matter
to terminate, without observing, that the Reverend and
Learned Lord who, if he would permit him such an ex-
pression, was, to borrow one of the Learned Lord's own
phrases, one of the most polished weapons of the Ecclesias-
tical armoury in that House, had begun by rebuking the
Noble Lord for having introduced his petition by the use of
hard words, while the Rev. and Learned Lord :seemed to
have forgotten, that the whole proceeding was founded on
the use of hard words—(hear,)---and that the very matter of
complaint on the part of the Catholics was the application of
those hard words which it was contended ought to be exer-
cised against those who used them in return. The whole mat-
ter reminded him of a little anecdote which, he believed, he
had once before mentioned to their Lordships, and which he
had found in an old Spanish Jest Book. In Spain, the flock, of
sheep are often in danger from the wolves, and the shep-
herds, as a protection, arm themselves with a long spear,
tipped with iron at one end, and, at the same time, avail
themselves of the assistance of a large dog. Now it hap-
pened that one of these shepherds and a dog had a quarrel,
and the shepherd, in defending himself against the dog,
killed him with his spear. The shepherd was seised by
the owner of the dog, and carried before the Alcaida, to be
tried for the offence. Why, said that Magistrate, did you
kill the dog ? The shepherd replied, because he ran at me
with his mouth open to bite. And why did you strike
him with the spear of your stick ? why not rather strike
him with the butt end, and beat him off? Because, said
the shepherd, he came against me with his mouth foremost,
and not with his tail.—(Hear, and a laugh.)—So it was
with the Roman Catholics. The Protestants called them
idolatrous and superstitinue—they loaded them with the
most opprobrious and insulting expressions; they goaded
them on to violence, and then they affected or felt sur-
prise, when the Catholics attempted to retort upon
them any portion of that language, or that insult, which
they themselves had provoked. With regard to the
other question, the conversion of the Catholics, or the
New Reformation, as it is called, what that had to do
with the question of Emancipation he had yet to learn.
Either it must be admitted that it has nothing to do with
the question, or else it must be meant that the Penal Laws
are meant to assist the work of conversion, aad to force
forward the work of reformation—(Hear.)—lf that be so,
then he would call the proceeding persecution.—(Hear. )
To *lake use of a temporal weapon for spiritual purpose.,
was, to all intents and purposes, persecution. (Hear, hear.)
If, however, it be conceded, that the work of conversion
hes nothing to do with the qeestiou, then they were equally
subject to tee reproach of making use of spiritual weapons
for carnal and temporal purposes, and equally guilty of per-
secution. In either way, therefore, what they were now
doing meant nothing, or it meant to give countenance to
persecution. The Reverend Lord had, however, gone
further, and denounced woe to all those who should at-
tempt to lift ap their hands to stay the doud of light.
The Bishop of CHESTER interrupted the Noble
He did net say any thing of the kind. He said, when the
time of that Reformation begins, woe be to him, who should
attempt to stem the flood.
Lord HOLLAND continued. Well, the time when the
Reformation begins was a saving clause certainly—(Hear !
and laughter.)—But in what way the woe might be ap-
plied, he apprehended there might unhappily be found some
who were not unwilling to Ilse it. But there was another
point to which he wished to call their Lordships' attention.
When the question of Catholic Emancipation was discus-
sed in that House, lie recollected perfectly' well, that the
merits and demerits of the Catholic religion termed with
some Learned and Reverend Lords one of the most promi-
nent and imp scant topics—the merits of the Catholic re-
ligion discussed among Protestants—(Haar),--and where
40g, but Protestants were present. He would not say
how such a proceeding might be considered in that House,
but in private society, the discussion and the decision of a
question in which two parties were interested, and only
one present, would have been considered ungentlernanlike
and uncharitable—(Hear, hear. )—He recollected, too very
well, that one of the topics dwelt upon most strongly as a
ground of hostility to the claims of the Catholics, was the
command and,thelanxiety to make proselytes, which was said
to characterize those who professed the Catholic faith (hear.)
Now be would say that the House must snake choice of one
of two things. They must either say that it is not right to
blazon forth the deeds done in the cause of Reforma-
tion, and to harangue upon the interposition of God on
behalf of the purer and better ftith, or else they must admit
that they, the Catholics, are also to be commended for their
real to produce reformation—(hear,hear.)—aud they must,
perhaps, even go further, and judge of both by the effects
of their labours, declaring that religion to be the purest
which produces the meet abundant proofs of the truth of
their faith.—(Hear, hear.)—He would ask, was any man
disposed to go time far, and place the truth of the faith of
Protestants upon such a trial ; and place the purity of its
doctrines, and its favour and acceptance with the Supreme,
upon a constant alternation of temporary triumphs.—
(Hear, hear.)—He concurred in opinion with the just and
exemplary Archbishop of Cashel—whom he was sorry not
to see in his place, and whom he would be proud to have
the pleasure of knowing personally, and whose near rela-
tionship to the wig. and comprehensive-minded Dr. Law-
rence left no surprise upon his mind that he had fol-
lowed his steps. :He concurred with that wise and
virtuous Prelate in the Charge which lie had published,
and which he had read with pleasure. When he said
that, however anxious he might be to spread the truth•
of the Gospel, end however zealous he might be to
call unbelievers to the faith, the attempt would, at the
present moment, be attended with many lied effects, by ex-
citing a s,;;irit of the same description among the Catholics;
and he finally conelqded by declaring, that whether Pre-
testeetissn could gain any thirig by the efforts at conver-
sion, was dubious, while that Christianity itself would
suffer, was certaiee—(Hear.)
Lord CARBERY said, the Noble Lords opposite seemed
to think, that all the hard words should be used on the
one side, and none periniteed on the other. The Catholics
were gill more inclined to make use of strong expressions
than the Protestants, and even declared that no Protestant
was entitled to salvation.
The petition was laid upon the table, and ordered to be
Print*i.--Their Lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF CONINIONS, 51Ancli 2S.
WEST LOOE.

On the motion of Mr. H. CLWE, a new writ wai or-
dered to be laud for the Borough of wtst Looe, in the