The Sun.
London, England, 1842-05-21 00:00:00

TI4F, SUN. ON _DON, SATURDAY MORNING, MAY. 21,

- ertr—iTClptain—Meynell, Hon. H. Legge, Sir IV, Martins. Sir , CO U7L.CT ERACTIO.I%ia--) N-FIDELITY'.
Hobert Chester, Sir E ederi..k. Smith, Viscount Cantilupe, I By means of public adyertisemdrit bearm, the abovs head •
La.ly Elizabeth %Vest, and Colonel Berkeley Drummond,. Field :
arig a meeting was convened yesterday, at the llanover-squ,re
Officer in Waiting. • Rooms, for the purpose of receiving from Mr. John Brindley,
On Monday last, Aslibel Smith, Charge d'Affaires of Texas, a report of the declining state of Socialism ; and to hear a state-
was presented by his Excellency Edward Everett, the American I meut of the present plans and future prospects of the
Minister, to Lord Aberdeen, at the Foreign-office. , Socia ist party in relation to their community establishment in
Mr. Coke Smyth, the artist, at, ended at Bucking- i Hampshite. The advertiseMent stated that. John Hardy, Esq.,
ham Palace on Thursday morning, to sketch the likeness of : M.P., would preside ; and by way of a note belie, it was ad-
some of the Household who are to appear in the forthcoming 1 ded—" As this meeting is not called for discussion, no inter-
work to commemorate the Hal Costume.
. . 1 ruption will be allowed—admission by tickets only, which will
be sent free on application to Mr. Brindley, at No. 11, Exeter
Hall." The meeting was convened for 12 o'clock, and at that
hour, though the room was but very pattially filled, Mr.
Hardy, AL P., accompanied by the Bishop of Chester, Mr.
Brindle), and one or two reverend gentlemen of small note,
entered on the platform, when Mr. Hardy was voted to the
chair.

SPORIING INTEi.LIGENCE.
EPSOM RACES.

EPSOM, FRIDAY.—The followi.:g is a list of Scott's lot now
at Leatherhead :—A,tila, The Puncher, Sir Harry, Jack,
Dil-bar, :he Patuaria filly, Khodantbe, All-fours, Knight of the
Whistle. Meteor, The Ladye of Silverkehl Well, The Lord of
Holderness, Sultan, Bar-net, and, Lanercost. The following
have also arrive.' : —Fireaway, The Ono.da Chief, Marshal
Ney. 3.lirabel!e, Tiptoe (lame), The-Devil-among-ti ,e-Tailors,
Rosa'ing, Singleton, Oh Don't, Las-o, Elisa, Mr Rush's Plenipo
colt, &c.. bPsioes a great many others for plates. By Monday
there will be nearly fifty Derby horses and upw arils of thirty
Oaks fillies in the neighbourhood. John Day's, Dilly's, and
several of the Newmarket lots, will not be there before Sunday
or Monday.
MANCHESTER RA C ES.—Tnu itsnAv.

Prayers having been read by the Rev. Mr. RAINFORTH,
The CHAIRMAN said, as he occupied the chair more as a
matter of form than for any duties he had to discharge, it
would be presumptuous in him to occupy their valuable time
by any observations of his own. The meeting was not called
for the purpose of discussion,- but merely for the sake of re-
ceiving information from Mr. Brindle; respecting the state of
Socialism.
A GENTLEMAN at the bottom of the room wished to know
from the Chairman whether he might. be allowed to correct any
nits. statements which Mr. Brindley might make in the course
of his address ?—(Cheers.)
• The CHAIRMAN said, if the person who had just spoken
had come in with a ticket, by which only he had a right to
come in, he would see that he had pledged himself to be go-
verned in all thngs by the Chairman ; and his detertrinatinn
was, to hear no observation from any other party but sir.
B. indley.—( Oh, oh 1)
The GENTLEMAN said he only wanted to know whether he
might correct Mr. Brindley, in case he should make any mis-
statements.
The CHAIRMAN—No one can be allowed to interfere in this
meeting.—(Cries of " Shame," and hisses. )
A VOICE—We came here to hear the truth.
The Rev. Mr. Tat-Loa, of Chester, said he thought it
would not be right 19 allow one word of comment from ail per-
son, on what might be said by Mr. Brindley.—(Oh, oh ! hisseS,
and chi era.) He knew Mr. Brindley to be one who might be
relied on —( Confusion, and cries of " No, no")—and if there
were no minister of Christ to speak for Mr. Brindley, surely
the ability with which he had conducted his proccedings,spoke
something for him. He hoped Mr. Brindley would not be in.
terrupted, but if any one should feel anti ,yed at the truths•
which he might bring forward, he had better wait for another
occasion to testify his disapprobation of them.
Some person in the centre of the room then rose, but he
gave away to
BRINDLEY who commenced by saying, that he thought
it right to state, in order that the ladies might not be
alarmed, that he had a number of police in attendance to re-
move any on--- who obstructed the business of the meet-
ing: he was not sorry, indeed he was greatly delighted to see
some of the leaders of the socialists present. and as they had a
weekly paper of theit own published regularly in London, they
could answer any mis-statements of his in that paper. lie
emold endeavour first to present to the meeting the history of
the rise,
.progress, and preseot condition of Socialism, under
which misnomer might it not be said that modern infidelity
had prevailed amongst us? He should then make one or two
quotations, which would show the intentions of the Socialist
party, and would prove their system to be one which set at
defiance God, which denounced all religion, which denounced
all marriage, which took away all responsibility, and which
threw open the flood-gates to every species of vice and crime
which man eould invent. First, then, he would say that though
it was generally understood that Socialism was a bad thing,
but few were aware of the extensively organised
means that had been. used to propagate their views,
and how gradual a progress they had made in the
world for some years. He had been acquainted with
their movements for fifteen years. When first Mr. Robert.
Owen came out and received the support of many influential
people, he was professedly a Christian man, and his establish-
ment at Lanark was under the conduct of Christian ministers.—
(s o, no.) But in 1828 he began to bring out his real inten-
tions; then he thought of doing away with all responsibility,
with marriage, with religion, and with the worship of God ;
and, instead of all that, we were all to be inhabitants of a
sort of parallelogram, in communities of 500, where there
should be no restraint, but where all should do as they liked,
think as they liked, and speak as they liked; because, not
being free agents, and having no responsibility, they could
not help doing as they liked. They progressed but slowly until
1835. when they became a regularly organised body. Com-
mittees were formed, consisting of men of good business habits ;
their central board was in Birmingham, and they sought out
men for their missionaries who had the talent of speaking,
paying them good wages, and allowing them travelling ex-
penses. From that time till 1838 and 1839 the progress they
made was alarming ; their organised branches had been more
than doubled ; they had efficient tract societies at work, and
were issuing to the extent of 1,000,000 copies of tracts and
small publications per annum. At that time, when Socialism
had thus gained ground, it was forced upon him (Mr. Brind-
ley), then residing at Stourbridge' in Worcestershire, where he
was conducting a public school, by a challenge to meet him
from Mr. A. Campbell, a Socialist missionary, then at Stour-
bridge. He attended that meeting, and beat Mr. Campbell on
his own ground. He afterwards went to a meeting called by
Mr. Owen, at Worcester; him he beat, and Mr. Owen left
the meeting followed by the execrations of thousands of people.
He then followed kim to Birmingham, where the result was
happily the same, and the Socialist party there now was a very
insignificant one. He continued his operations against Socialist
fallacies for three year., during which time he had travelled
more than 30,000 miles, had attended 500 public meetings, and
had written and published 100,000 tracts and books. He now
came in the second place to the quotations to which
be had referred in the opening, and the first to
which he would call their attention was from a
pamphlet called " Owen's Lecture on Marriage," p. 54 :
" I resume the subject of marriage, because it is the source of
more demoralization, crime, and misery, than any other single
cause, with the exception of religion and private property."—
( Hear, hear, from the Seriaists. A voice "Be ye not called
bastards." uproar, and cries of "Turn him out," " Order,"
and " Cheers.") " These three together are the great causes
of the crime and immorality which exist amongst mankind."—
(Cheers from the Socialists.)l He saw from those cheers that
be had not mistaken their principles. —( Hear, he r.) He be-
lieved it to be a system which would cause anarchy and con-
fusion to reign throughout the country, by which the strong,
idle, wicked, lazy man, might rob the industrious of that which,
by his labour and industry he had been permi-ted to accumu-
late.—( Cheers.) But the system went beyond that, it was
not satisfied with making its followers wretched for time, but it
would b:ast their hopes for eternity. He would say then that
he could not but consider this as an awful anti a devilish system.
—(Cheers.) There was one more passage which he should
quote, in proof of the positive Atheism which their principles
inculcated. It would be found in the report of a public discus-
sion between Mr. R. Owen and himself, when Mr. Owen said :
" My belief then is, that in all the religions of the world it is a
fundamental principle that man has a free will, forms his own
character, and determines his own conduct ; that he has the
power of believing or disbelieving in a God, of ascertaining Isis
attributes awl qualities, and that he shall be punished hereafter
it he does not believe in a God, and ascertain these attributes
and qualities; that he is accountable for his will, his conduct,
his feelings, and his thoughts; and if he believe according to
the dogmas of his religion, and act up to thafbelief, he shall be
happy after death ; but that if lie does not believe in God, in
his qualities and attributes, he shall, after death, be eternally
tormented. I believe it is a fundamental principle in all reli-
gions, that prayers. and forms, and ceremonies, are necessary
to enable the individual to know God ; and it is moreover ne-
cessary that he should contribute money for all godly purposes ;
that in all these religions; whoever disbelieves is an infidel—
therefore I am an infidel, for I believe none of them."
lie might have added positively: " an Atheist," because he did
not believe in God. Instead et God, these unfortunate men
positively worshipped Mr. Owen, for he found that at a late
meeting all the Delegates had made a presentation to him re-
questing that he would finish some book on the New Moral
Word which he had commenced, " so that," in the words of
the presentation, " when you depart from among us, and we
see your face no more, yet we may read the perfect picture of
your mind, and may by you be taught the words of life."—
( Laughter.). Here, then, these men had given up the worship
of the living God, and had degraded themselves to worship a
worm like themselves—a poor foolish old man, who had
brought forward as a system to guide them the most ridiculous
piece of folly that had ever been imagined. He would now
proceed to show that Socialism having prospered so far,
had gone gradually and rapidly down. In Bristol they
had gone to nothing. Socialism there was as a thing that
had been. In Liverpool they had been obliged to shut up
their Institution, and advertise it to be let or sold. In
Chester, likewise, where they had established a book-shop,
and had taken every means to perfect their views, they had
not lately held anything like a meeting, and their book-shop
was closed.-1-(Cheers.) It appeared from their own Report,
published last Christmas, that out of eighty-five places where
Socialism formerly was progreising, there were only thirty-
nine left in which its principles were openly taught and ac-
ktioaledged ;. and of those there were certainly not five but
were deeply in debt to the executive of the Society ; and their
whole strength throughout the kingdom had dwindled down to
1,776 members, and in August last the whole of their mis-
sionary staff was disbanded. At Leeds and at Bradford he had
been made acquainted with the good which hadresultedfromhis
labours, and at the latter place the operatives had presented
him with a signet ring. But the SacialistA might perhaps say,
" Will you attempt to palm off on us that Socialism is declin-
ing, when we have just completed a beautiful building in
Hampshire at the cost of some 19,0901. ? He would explain
how it would be quote consi-tent th.t Sei&ais;ii might be in
a thoroughly declining irate, -and that they .iAid just finished a
very handsome buil iing. The building would be no good fin-
less they were able to show that they had funds enough
support the people in that building; it would only serve as a
large monument of folly to point at them the finger of scorn.
This community establishment commenced in 1639, when they
prevailed on about 50 people to go down and c.institutc them-
selves an embryo social community. They were al ito be ladies
and gentlemen, and were to set an example to the old worn- •
out immoral world, and their's was to be a " new moral
world." And so most assuredly it would be, for their's was
to be nothing in common with the old morality—(Loud cheers
f. om the Socialists, amid counter alieers)—because every one was
to think as he liked and to do as be liked. Then the astonish-
ing..
harmony that was to be there ! they were to live in a per-
fect paradise, and therefore they called it " a New Harmony.•'
Ha: Mori}, arising frtim 50 people all differently organised, think-
ing as they liked and doing as they liked I—(Cheers and
laughter.) . They then issued a report on the let of October,
1839, and they dated it, "New style, Year I, first day."-e-
-(Loud laughter.) But how long ,did that new style exit ?
Why it never finshed its fiat year, it ceas:d to t (slier in
July, 1840.—(Laughter.) In May they were in a regular
state of disunion, and he told the Socialsts not to go down
there, fur if they did starvation must follow. Mr. Brindley
then read several letters from persons who had been in this es-
tablishment. One 'said that the place was more like a work-
house than anything else, and them was no glass in the win-
dotes. "lhe present establishment, which had just been opened
in Hampshire, had not been erected by the Socialists, but by a
company of' speculating men, who had taken shares as a build-
ing company, in hopes that Mr. Owen would get enough in-
mates
to enable him to rent the building of them. So it yet '
remained to be seen whether the building was to be
a Socialist one or not. He had been to Bristol,
to Liverpool, and Chester,land he found that they had 'had
quite enough of community tnere. He then went to Hamp-
shire, and he found the people there, so far from being just
ready to enter into community, just in a state of open revolt ;
and they told him that he should. have plenty of facts, for they
had, been most grossly deceived; and that instead of being a
community for working men, it was for sonic of the great ones,
" some of them up at the top." And there was Mr. Robert
Owen, not living in community, but in the principal inn of
the place, riding about in his carriage. There was one poor
family. there, in particular, who would be very glad to get hack
to their old quarters.—(Loud cries of " Name, name," with
" Order," " Chair," &c., which continued for some time.)
. The CHAIRMAN said if order were not restored, he should
direct the police to remove the noisy parties.—(Cheers,
mingled with groans and hisses.)
Mr. BataroLev then pointing to a most respectable looking
person near us, and in whom we had not observed the slightest
impropriety of conduct, said, " Mr. Jones, yon are one of the
leaders, and unless you are quiet, the police shall turn you out."
Mr. JoNas replied, " l shall be quiet, Sir ; I can listen to
you with patience; I know you well."
The cry of " Name, name" still 'continued, when

Sweepstakt's of 20 Sovs. each and 40 added, fur two yrs old
colts, Bst bib., and tithes, at 2lbs. Three quarters of a mile.
(6 Sub )
Mr 'iris ow's Pharaoh by the Mummy ( Hardy)
Mr. King's St. Cutbbert
The foLowing also started, but were not placed :-- Mr.
Worthington's Hooton, Mr. Dawson's Isabella. and Mr. \Yd.
hams' V.seount.

Betting-7 to 4 agst Pharaoh, and 2to 1 agst Viscount.
Won early by two lengths.
The St. Lege: Stakes of 25 :;.ovs. each, with 50 added;
colts, Est bib; filitrs, Sst 31b. _►;ile and three quarters.—
(3 Subs.)
Mr. Bristow's Harroldston, walked over.

Her Mjesty's plate of 100 mumeas, for 3 yrs old, 7st' 21b;
4 yrs, 9-t 21b; 5 yrs, 10st ; 6 yrs and aged, lOst 51b—
Ti,ree roil s and a distance.
Mr. Heseltine's Tht. Shadow, 5 yrs
Mr. Dawson's The Biddy, 3 yrs.., 2 0

Betting-5 to 4on the shadow. Won in a canter by 20
lengths.
Plate of 501. added to a sweepstakes of 5 .ovs. each for 3 and 4
yrs old ; the second to receive 101. out of the .takes ; 3 yrs
old, 6st 101 b ; 4 yrs. fist 2l1); fillies and geldings allowed
3lb ; winners once, 3 lb ; twice, slb ; and thi ice, 71b, extra.
—Heats, a mile and a goarter. 3 subs.
Capt. Harcourt's Amapa, 4 yrs (Lye) 1 I
Mr. Park's fby Physician, dby Soothsayer, 3 yr 5........ 2 2
Mr. Siandbank's Hookah 3 3
First heat won easy ; the second, cleverly,

RIGHT OF SEARuti QUESTION.

(From Gal grvine's Messenger.)

CHAMBER OF PEERS.--SITTING OF MAY 17.

The President said that, as no person claimed the
right of addressing the Chamber, they +I ould- proceed to
the order of the day, which was the discussion on the
bill for extraordinary and supplementary credit.: on the
estimates of 1841 and 1842.

Viscount Doubouchage complained at considerable
length c.f the increase of 'licit- expenses, which, he
thought, threatened complete .ruin to the natbse
The Marquis de Boissy, after having passed in review
the state of the finances, proceeded to speak of the right
of search, and demanded not only that the Treaty lately
proposed should not be ratified, but that the reciprocal
right of search should cease altogether. He thOught he
ought to insist on this point, no matter what the avowed
organ in the Cabinet of English interests might say to
the contrary.—(Loud murmurs and cries of " Order.")
Count LanjuinaisThe • phrase was not completed.
Let the Honourable Peer be allowed to repeat it.
The Marquis de Boissy did not mean to designate any
Minister. He only quoted from a journal which was
considered the organ of the Government.—(Marks of
denial.)
The President requested the Honourable Peer to
withdraw the expression. It ought not to be necessary
to inform him that every expression insulting to a
Frenchman, and particularly to a Member of the Cabi-
net, ought not to be uttered. It was evident he spoke of
a Minister, and not of a journal, and he (the President)
should be obiiged to call him to order if he continued.
The Marquis De Boissy repeated his phrase amidst
much noise, which prevented the remainder of his speech
from being heard.
The Marquis de Gabriac adduced arguments to prove
that England was unjustly accused of Machiavelisin, in
her demand to have the treaty .for establishing the right
of search adopted by the Great Powers, and particularly
by France. He maintained that she was actuated by
philanthropy.
Count Mole—The words which had b. en just spoken
in a manner obliged him to address the Chamber. From
1817 to 1831, the treaty for a right of search had been
constantly proposed by England" to France, and France
had as constantly rejected it. He did not mean to say
that England had any hidden or dangerous design in
doing this. On the. -contrary, he believed that the de-
mand took its origin in the religious feelings of England,
which always exercised a great influence over the resolu-
tions of her Government. In 1817 he Was Minister of the
Marine, and England, us he had just stated, made propo-
sitions to obtain the right of search. The Ministry which
existed then, under the Duke of Richelieu, refused to ac-
cede, tirst, because the position of France immediately after
an invasion did not allow her to show any facility in mat-
ters which in any way affected her sovereignty, and, also,
because it might give rise to differences tending to de-
stroy the good terms on which the two countries stood.
England continued her efforts, and even accused France
of not adopting sufficiently severe ineasures. As Minister
of Marine, he had introduced a Bill for repressing, still
more than had before been done, the slave-trade. The
Bill was voted, but exactly in the same profound silence
as had accompanied the voting of ;he indemnity to the
foreign assnies, so great was the distrust of the Chamber,
and its tears of the independence of France being com-
promised. Other propositions were afterwards made by
England, and successively refused by Baron Pasquier and
Viscount de Chateaubriand. Then came the Revolution
of July, which, though it in no way changed the ques-
tion, certainly increased the friendly terms on which the
two countries were placed towards each other, and from
which proceeded a Treaty of reciprocal right of search,
which the just susceptibilities of the French nation had
before then refused. When he (Count Mole) came to
power in the year 1836, he found the same propositions
which England had lately succeeded in getting agreed to.
He htid been scme time in power before he was aware
of the propositions, and then only from an application
made by the -English Government to him to send his
answer. - At a later period, in 1837, Portugal made pro-
positions similar to those of England, which . were pe-
remptorily rejected. These propositions tended to in-
crease the zones in which. the search was to be made.
In 1838 England again made proposals, and the answer
was, that the matter.would be taken into consideration.
How then did it occur, that When so positive as answer
was given to Portugal; a more hesitating reply was given
to England. It must be borne in mind that he was then
personally accused of neglecting the English alliance, and
that the accusations were even made in theChamber.Hewas,
therefore, unwilling to send Well n reply as would give ad-
ditio 1.0 grounds for suspicion. He, therefore, endeavoured
to adjourn the question by dilatory proceedings, but
never consented to augment the -zones specified in the
treaties of 1831 and 1833. Such had been his part in
the question. He had never intended, and he defied any
one to say, as had been asserted, that his administration
had consented to extend the existing treaties. He felt it
right to give these explanations, because both in the
Chamber, and out of it, his name had been cited on this
question. He was only anxious that the Chamber should
fix with precision each man's responsibility.
The Minister of Foreign AfThirs—The Chamber would
perceive that Count Mole had gone back on the past,
and treated the subject in the manner which he (M.
Guizut) had always avoided. What had been just
said Lift him at full liberty, if he pleased, to allude or
not to facts not affecting himself, and not, therefore,
touching his -own responsibility. Yet, after what
had been stated, he would go back too, but not far-
ther than the Revolution ofjuly. He would show the
Chamber that the written despatches to'and from Count
Mole did not exactly square with the words they had
just heard. (Here the 11s.n. Minister realm a number of
despatches t) and from Count Sebastiani at London,
tending to prove that Count Mole had not opposed so
f. rmallyas he had stated the extension of the zones, in
which the right of search was to be exercised.) He
then continued thus—The diScussion oil the question
cannot take place to-day, but in my eyes it results from
all the negotiations that France is morally engaged to
sign the Treaty. Since the last discussion in the Cham-
ber, the position of time question is in no resp•ct altered.
The ratification of the Treaty has been po,i tively refused,
and no en!ragement has been taken to ratify it at any future
time. It is said, that when time Ch .mbers are over the
Treaty wilt be signed. I might take such an assertion as
an insult t) my common sense. Do ysat suppose
that the matilial presence of the Chamber is what acts
on • the determinations of Governments? No, gentle-
men, whether you be absent or present, it is certain that
your opinion and wishes are equally looked to by us. The
line of conduct which I i.dopted two months ago in re-
fusing to ratify the Treaty, I will equally pursue when
the do,rs of this building ar- closed; and, in the actual
state of things, I conceive that I should fail in my duty
were I to recoinniend the ratification.

Count Mole addressed the Chamber, in opposition to
the notion that he had been fa% ourable to the ex-
tension of the zones. It was certain, he said, that every.
Ministry had endeavoured 'to extend the treaties of
1831 and 1833, by groin. the other Powers to consent
to them. When the treaties existed, he was one of
thos, who considered that they ought to be respected,
but he had never exerted himself to procure any exten-
sion of the right of other Powers, and what he had
said referred simply to the .zones in which the right of
search was to be exercised; When even Portugal pro-
posed it, he had always rejected it in the most formal
manner ; and that in 1838, when he had had before his
eye 3 the Treaty of the Five Powers which England had
communicated. In December, 1838, he was surprised at
the consent given by his Ambassador to the protocol, but
he could not at the moment; when the address was dis-
cussed with so much acrimony, disavow what the Am-
bassador had done. He must then repeat that the ex-
tension-of the latitudes in nhich the right of search was
to Le exercised had always been opposed by. him, and
that the only aim of the efforts of his Administration
was to get the existing treaties observed. Personally,
he had always been opposed to• the right of search.
The discutsion was adjourned to the next sitting, and
the Chamber rose at six o'ckek.

The West India steamers are allowed for the pre-
sent, through an especial favour from the Admiralty, to be re-
paired at Pertsmouth, the West India Company's dock at
Southampton not being yet completed. 'I he Company have
purchased a portion of land at the mouth of the Itchen river,
opposite the Southampton Docks, on the road to Netley Abbey.
The old road to that far-famed place has been destroyed on pur-
pose to enable the Company to make their dock. The immense
expense to which the tumpany have been subjected lately bas
prevented them from using any funds for the present in com-
pleting their dock. The expenses of the West India Company
are estimated at 1,0001. daily.