The Sun.
London, England, 1829-04-08 00:00:00

•-•
my intention except by this public declaration to your
Lordships.
The Duke of LEINSTER presented a petition from the
county of Kildare against the monastic clause in the Ca-
tholic Relief Bill.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS.—(LAST NIGHT.)
The LORD CuANTELLoa took his seat at five minutes

before Five o'clock.

MILITIA LISTS BILL.

Sir ALEX. GRANT and others brought up three Private The Duke of WELLINGTON moved the third read-
Bills. ing of this Bill, which was agreed to, after a short cou-
Mr. ESTCOURT and others brought up another Private versation upon its provisions between the Lords ORIEL and
Bill. the Marquis FARNHAM, of LANSDOWNE, and the Duke
Mr. Johnson, from the office of the Chief Secretary '
s of Wotatoceoet.
Office for Ireland, presented a Return of the number of
Freeholders registered in Ireland. It was ordered to be THE ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIEF BILL.
printed. The Duke of WELLINGTON moved the Order of the
Several Private Bills passed their various stages. Day, that this Bill be now committed.
Lord GROSVENOR profhted a petition against one Lord DE DUNSTANVILLE had voted with the ma-
of them with a view that the parties might be heard by jority of their Lordships in favour of this Rill on a for-
their Counsel before the Bill was read a third time. ' men night, because he thought that whilst it admitted the
Lord DUNALLY presented a petition from the Bishop Roman Catholics within the pale of the Constitution, it
and Clergy of the diocese of Cashel and another place, tended to strengthen the Protestant interest and the Pro-
against the clauses in the Bill for relieving the Roman testant church snore than any other measure which could
Catholics from their disabilities fur regulating the Monastic be advised. He knew many of their Lordships who bad
Establishments. frightened their wives and daughters, and who, he believed,
The Earl of CARLISLE presented a petition from the had also frightened themselves, with their foolish notions
town of Carlisle in favour of the Catholic Relief Bill. No about the power of Pope and Popery ; but he thought
person had been permitted to sign this petition who did that if they turned over the pages of history a little more
not fully understand what they were doing. carefully than they hitherto had done, they would see that
Lord FARNHAM presented what he conceived to be a their fears were without foundation. Their Lordships
petition of a peculiar kind. It was from nine hundred ought to recollect, that even in the early ages the Popes
and eighty females who belonged to the Wesleyan reli- were often shut up within their own castles by the very
gious denomination of London, who conceived their religion princes Against whom they had issued their bulls of ex-
would be in danger by the passing of the purposed mea- communication. They were driven out of Italy by the
sure for the relief of the Catholics ; and it prayed that the people of that country, and were compelled to retire to
House would not carry it into a law. Those petitioners, Avignon, where they remained nearly 300 years. During
the Noble Lord conceived, had as much right to petition that period the Italians refused to pay the slightest atten-
the House 88 any subject of his Majesty. tion to the bulls of the church. Undoubtedly the power of
The Noble Lord presented a great many petitions from the Pope was at that time supported by a set of Ultra-
various parts in Ireland and England to the same effect. Montanes, who were not very unlike the tiltra-Protes-
Lord LITTLETON presented a petition from the Inde, tants of the present day, but there were still a large
pendent Protestant Dissenters of Northampton, praying portion of the people of Italy who refused to ac-
tor the relief of the Roman Catholics. cede to his extravagant pretensions. It was not cur-
Lord ELDON presented a petition from Whitby against prising that the Popes should have put forth such ex-
further concessions. Also from Everstlale, Sudbury, Suf- travagant pretensions; for in those drys, every person
folk, Montrose, Poole, Johnstone, Borrowstownees, Holy in authority, from the monarch who wielded the sceptre
Trinity, Cambridge, Wollaston, Aberdeen, Paisley, the down to the constable who wielded the staff, claimed more
Lord Provost, and 18,900 individuals of Edinburgh, of power than legitimately belonged to his office. Their
great respectability, and of all professions there; as well Lordships ought also to recollect, that at the beginning of
as from many other places to the same effect. He the Reformation the Pope was besieged in his own capital
wished to say, that many of these petitions had refe- by a Catholic Prince; and that after he had been taken
rence to the Bill which he understood was the subject prisoner, that Catholic Prince ordered prayers to be put up
of their Lordships' deliberations last night,—he meant for the Pope's delivery in every church within his dorni-
i'he Bill fur disfranchising the forty-shilling freeholders.-- nions. He would now come to more modern times; and
The reason of his absence was ill health. With respect here he would remind their Lordships, that the most
to that Bill, he should certainly have said it was within bigotted monarchs in Spain and Portugal had made pri-
the competency of Parliament to pass that Bill, whether sonere of every Jesuit in their dominions, and had sent
occasion called for it or not. He should have looked at them into perpetual exile, notwithstanding the ecclesiastical
the Bill as a sort of purchase-money for the Catholic Re- character with which they were invested. In still more
lief Bill, and therefore he should not have given his con- recent times, the Emperor Joseph had made considerable
sent to any such Bill. reforms in the ecclesiastical institutions of his country, not-
The Duke of WELLINGTON observed that no one re- withstanding the resistance which the Pope made to some
gretted more than he did the absence and ill-health of the of them, and the anxiety which he displayed to avert them
Noble and Learned Lord. all. Had their Lordships forgotten the ease with which
Lord ELDON resumed—as to the Bar of Scotland, he Buonaparte had made a capture of the Pope, not permitting
thought it his duty to say the learning, the knowledge they him to leave his captivity, except to assist in the fete of his
had of their profession, and of matters not immediately be- coronation ? ~So why Noble Lords should fear the Pope so
longing to it, would do honour to any class of individuals. much, he could on no account discover. He considered it
The Earl of HADDINGTON said, after the high to be a foul libel on the Church of England to say, that if
this Bill should pass into a law, it would be impossible any
manner in which the Noble and Learned Lord had spoken
longer to maintain the established church. He reminded
of the bar of Scotland, it did not behove him to say one
their Lordships, that in the reigns of Charles H. and of
word about that body, after it had received the eulogium
James H., Tillotson, and Lloyd, and Burnet, and others,
of a person at once so distinguished, and so eminently
had triumphantly defended that church against all the lite-
qualified to pronounce an authoritative opinion there- nary assaults of its adversaries; and he did not doubt that
upon. He would, however, take this opportunity of
we had at present upon the episcopal bench, learned divines
stating, as some allusion had been made to the opinions of
equally able to defend its doctrines against all comer!.
the clergy of the Church of England and of Scotland, that
The Duke of RUTLAND, with permission of their
there had been lately a meeting of the Presbytery at
Lordships, would state acme of the reasons which had in-
Edinburgh, which constituted the most important cede- dosed him to vote the other evening along with the ma-
siastical jurisdiction of that Church in Scotland. It was
jority of their Lordships in favour of this Bill. It was
convened to consider of a petition against the Catholic
not that he was satisfied with the securities which it con-
claims, by Dr. Lee, a Rev. Gentleman of high celebrity, dined—for the reverse was the case—but that he was
of great personal character and talents, and who opened
anxious to get such alterations made in them in the Cora-
the subject in an able and moderate speech which did
mitten, as would enable him hereafter to support it. He
him credit; and he was glad to bear this testimony to
did not expect that the ex post facto explanation of such
the respectability of a gentleman with whom he was ac-
vote as he had given would be either interesting or emu-
quainted. The Presbytery full discussed the proposition,
sing to their Lordships; but perhaps their Lordships
and decided, after a long debate, by 20 to 11, that the would extend their indulgence to him when he stated that
petition ought to be rejeeted. In the minority were four
Ile had endeavoured to give it in the late protracted discus-
of the clergy of Scotland, and in the majority thirteen.
sion. He might say that he had made the House his
Such a decision would be productive of the greatest effect
debtor to sonic amount; for the moment at which lie had
in Scotland, where attempts had been made to delude
risen to give an explanation of the reasons for his vote, was
clteaee of the people into a belief that the Roman Catholic
the moment at which, by his giving way, their Lordships
Relief Bill was aimed at the foundation of the Protestant
had been enabled to listen to the able and lucid speech of
Establishment, which they were taught to believe would
the most Rev. Prelate who had commenced 'the discussion
be soon upset by Popery. of the second day's debate, and also to that of another Rt.
Lord ELDON gave notice that, on Thursday, he should
Rev. Prelate who had followed him (tlie Archbishop of
present a petition from Liverpool against the Catholics.
Yoak and the Bishop of Durham). If he erred in the view
Viscount TORRINGTON presented a petition from
which he took of this most momentous question, he could
Ilarroweeate, in favour of the petition now proposed.
assure their Lordships, with the utmost sincerity, that he
Lord GODERICH presented a petition from Everton
should not err from want of a calm, dispassionate, and he
to the same effect. might even add, a painful consideration of the subject. As
The Duke of CUMBERLAND presented petitions from
far as his humble intellectual powers allowed, he had given
the Wesleyans of Woodside, Worcester, Bloomfield, and
to this question the deepest attention in all its various
nurnertme other places, against Emancipation.
branches; would that he could say, lad° et libeuti animo,
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE presented a petition
with that consciousness of correctness which ought always
from the Roman Catholics of the town of Galivay, praying
to be the accompaniment of every conscientious vote !
that in the Bill on their Lordships' table, a clause might
On this question that gratification was denied to him, and
be inserted, enabling them to enjoy all the corporate privileges
to every Noble Lord who, like himself, being hitherto
of that town which an ancient Act prohibited them from.
opposed to concession to the Roman Catholics, found
The Noble Marquis presented several other cctitions in
themselves unable to pursue any line of conduct which
favour of emancipation. was not hampered by pain, difficulty, and ember-
The Bishop of ELY presented a petition from a parish
ressment.—(Hear, hear, hear.)—lf he supported this
in his diocese against emancipation. rneaenre, he supported a measure of which the heneficiel
The Bishop of CHICHESTER presented a petition
effects appeared to be speculative and theoretical—(bear,
to the same effect. hear, from the cross benches)--and if he opposed it, he
Lord FIFE presented a petition from the Roman Ca-
ran the risk of plunging the country into evils which he
tholics of Kirkmicheel, in favour of the measure.
would not further desciibe, but of which not the least
Lord SIDMOUTH presentod two petitions against the
would be the removal of that Administration to which,
measure. both as regarded its exteinal and its internal policy, he
Lord HOLLAND presented a petition from Dissenting
considered the country to be largely indebted.—(Hear,
Ministers in the county of Ease, in fivour of the Bill.
hear.)—Much had been said on both sides of this ques-
Lord GREY presented a petition from a parish in the
Lion; and many able speeches had been delivered, and
county of Clare against the Sub. letting and Vestry Acts ;
many cogent arguments had been urged upon this subject,
also a petition from the same parish praying for the re-
which to his mind rested in a very small compass. He
'novel of Catholic disabilities. asked himself two questions. Has there been a necessity,
The Nont,E Loan also presented a petition from ltlr.
—a dominant, imperious, irresistible necessity,—for some
O'Gorman Mahon and another, praying to be alloxed to
change in the constitutional policy of this country towards
be heard by counsel at their Bar, against the Disfranchising
the Roman Catholics? And next, granting that neces-
Bill. The petitioners were not personally interested, but
say to be proved, is the plan now proposed that which,
stated that the franchise of a number of individuals depended
under all considerations, is the wisest, safest, and best ?
upon them. In the address of the petition the petitioners
He held that these were the questions which which their
did not ttate that it was the " humble" petition, &c. ;
Lordships had to consider, and no others.—(Dear. )
they. however, c' humbly" prayed, &c. ; and a ❑question
With regard to the first question, looking to the state of
would be, whether this was sufficient or not. The Noble
the feverish excitement which existed on this great ques-
Lord begged that the petition might be laid on the table.
Lion,—assuming it as a fact that the Catholic Association
Lord ELDON considered that as respected the word
was not assailable by the common law,—assuming it
humble, the petition was such as might be received; but
again as a tact that time Bill for disfranchising the forty-
that the petitioners being themselves not interested, it was
shilling freeholders was impossible to be carried without
not competent for them to make the application.
this other Bill as a concomitant —he must say that he was
Lord 310UNTASHFL said, that O'Gorman Mahon
ready to admit that the necessity was proved.—(lleac.)
and the other petitioner having been ringleaders of the
Their Lordships had heard a great many euiogiums passed
agitation in Ireland fur a long time, any eppiieatign coning on the conduct of the Catholic Association. He could not
from a quarter so auspicious ought nut to receive much
move a tingle pace in praise of that Association : on the
Encouragement from their Lordships. contrary, he considered it to merit the most bitter repre-
The petition wee ordered to lie on the table. hension. The conduct of that body, and the use made by
Lord WINCHILSEA presented numerous petitions
. it of its influence over the people, could not be approved
from various parts against the aleoeuee. of by env man who valued the peace of the country. Its
The Duke of SUSSEX presented a petition frern the
pretneed forbearance reminded him of what was said of
individual clergymen of the archdeaconry of Cleveland ; it the e
dandy equestrian ;a Rotten-row, who
was aloe signed by other persons in favour of concession. . With his left heel inadiously aside,
The aircittis of LANSDOWNE presented a similar pc. " Provoked the caper, which he seem'd to chide."
The Noble Duke then proceeded to advert to some of the
thane from several Magistratgs and Freeholders of the
details of the Bill, but owing to the manner in which be
county of Wilts; aleo petitiene from Mt. D. O'Connell,.
dropped his voice at the end of some of his sentences, we
Mr. E. M`Donneil, arid the secular clergy of the Boras°
;tide' elleet only their import. We understood the Noble
Catholic religion in Ireland, against the Claueein the 130-
Duke
ae.ttrot-
the
e'thao.demßi ilsliowohoi which I I.,_,laetfht
;1%7,
and
man Catholic Relief Bill for the suppression of the monase
office of Prime Min
.erquis of ANGLESEA presented a similar peti-
tToi suggest trot an exception should be made of that office.
..tieTohrdiieArsi
Lion from' an iediSi4oet of the name of Devereux. He also
There were other provisions which he should wish to see
presented three other pelitione feoro iffereat parts of Ire- made when the Bill was in committee. Though he oh-
land, with a similar prayer. •c( •tti to some parts of the detail, and could not support
The Duke of WELLINGTON rose to move the Order -'
the farther plug eau pf the Bill unless he found that in the
a.` time Day, when there was a cry from some Noble Lords
toneCommitteeof
tbos adequate Securities weie provided, still he was
fin. ' the peeeentation of more petitions. The Noble Duke o
gave way, and Lord reenoe: rove to give a public notice to sureo
would
beteie who
funeral
thought that the passing of the mea-
-1 knell of the Protestant Church
THE ANTI-CATHOLIC PLIFIIQNERS IN SCOT- in any port of the United Kingdom. He did not think
, ,
LAND. that day which would see Catholics take their seats in
The Kart of ELDON-1 am not anxious to present any , 'artianierit eeoelil be the destruction of the Constitution, or
more petitions at pipsent against the Roman Catholic Relief •1 that it could be said of it,
Bill ; but I think it roy duty to state, that I have received I " Venit summa dies et ineluctabile tempos."
a great number of petitions from Seotleno, soda' it is I H
e hoped and believed that there were yet' miny years,
impossible for me to present, in consequence of their ; probably centuries, if the world should list 'so long, of
having no names on the first sheet. These petitions liappioese in utore For this our beloved country. But this
ore so very nutnerow, that it is impossible for me to . feeling could not alter his view of the measure before their
Send ekes. bark to the petitioners, in order
_to have ' Lordships. They were bound not only to lonic at the pre,-
them set right.
t thinks it necessary to make this . bable effects of the measure in their own time, but to con-
statement to them here, by w'ili of anology for not ; sides th
ooseoiy for themselves, who neireetslve
to come
buteaf for Lerthem.
presenting their petitions, and a more 'ttileat eta; 77:- ' act,not posterity.l'heyWTieenre to
the
peditious mode of communicating with them I do net ', Bili thoeht have
any doubt, i.e heped they would see an end
passed into a law, of which he could not
'knew. I have also received another petition to' present, no* entertain
which I should Nape ssent back to the parties who sent it of those asperities and the irritation which at pt-escalt e;:,
to me, had I known their et:drees. One of them was a istetl betweSn Profestanta and Catholics. He hoped 'their
the would gradually, for he could not. expect that they would
petition from those persons who called thetnselyee
friends of civil and religious liberty. The petition .ur- iirinea;ieeely, subside, and that a spirit of union wiiuld
ports to have been agreed to at a place called the Me- influence-both. To the Protestants he would say, "what
ohe.nics' Institute, and is signed by three individuals, one you do give, give freely, and in a spirit. Qf Paucilifttio;l."
of whona is called Hwy Hunt--(A laugh.)--That is aTo the Catholics he would observe, " receive with gra-
petition which t cannot present consistently either with titude that which is awarded ; show that your religion
the forms of the House or with the matter which it con- which you deny to be intolerant, is capable of producing
tains, I have A 9 other means of informing the parties of the kindly fruits of Christian forbearance. Show that as