Star.
London, England, 1830-03-26 00:00:00

TOSEIGN COIL

Mr. WESTERN presented the petition of the manufacturers of
flour in the county of Essex. They prayed, and he himself thought
it not unreasonable, that they might be permitted to take foreign
corn, now warehoused, out on paying a duty of 4s and giving security
that it should not be allowed to come into competition with our own
in the supply of the home market • and having ground it and ex-
ported it as flour to foreign countries, or the colonies, retain the
coarse parts, consisting of pollard and bran, to be disposed of here
for feeding cattle, pigs, and other agricultural purposes. He hoped
the petitioners might obtain a favourable ear from thaw official
persons within whose province lay the regulation of the supply of
the home market.

Mr. HENRIES observed that the application was not without a
precedent, and when the subject of the permission to take out fo-
reign corn from warehouses in this country to be exported was be.
fore the house, the great discussion was upon the grinding clause •
and it should be recollected that the opposition to it did not proceed
front the government. (hear.) Government entertained the same
sentiments still on this part of the question, and if the securities
required by the landed interest effectually to prevent foreign corn
coming in competition with our own in the home market were of-
fered, it was not unlikely that a proposal for putting in motion so
greet a portion of capital, and creating thereby a proportionate ac-
tivity in the manufacture of Your would be successful.
111 r. HUME supported the prayer of the petition, which was
marred to be printed and to lie on the table.

Mr. W. 8111TH presented a petition from Alcock, Esq.
of Norwich,respecting the political condition of the Jews.—Ordered
to lie on the table.

Lord J. RUSSELL presented a petition from the letter-pressmen
of t..htffield, praying for a reduction of the duties on telvertise-
nient4, on the ground that the revenue would be benetitted thereby.
Colonel SIBTHOItY spoke in favour of the petition.—lt was
ordered to lie on the table.

Sir 111. W. RIDLEY presented a petition from Newcastle-upon-
Tyne, in favour of a free trade with China.
Mr. Alderman WOOD presented a petition from the congrega-
tion of Protestant Dissenters in Worship-street, against the punish.
meet of death.

After a short conversation across the table, In which Mr. EA.
BOUCHERE, the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, Mr. STAN-
LEY, Mr. HUME, Sir O. MURRAY, *rid Mr. Secretary PEEL took
parts, Mr. LABOUCHERE fixed his motion, as we understood, for
Tuesday, the 18th of Ably.
Mr. JEPHSON, in the absence of his hon. and learned friend,
postponed his motion relative to Trial by Jury in Van Diemen',
Land, with an understanding that the subject was to be taken up by
government.

TAXATION.
Mr. P. THO3ISON, in moving for a Select Committee to In-
quire into the expediency of making a revision of the Taxes, hoped
the house would extend some indulgence to the task he had under-
taken, as he had, for the last few days, been labouring under severe
indisposition. It was not his object to submit any proposition of a
substantive nature to their consideration nor did he himself pro.
pose any change in the system of taxation. All he desired was to
procure the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire what re-
medy could be applied to the abuses of the system of taxation, if
such abuses could be found to exist ; and if they did not exist, to
satisfy the people of this country that their complaints and suspi.
cions on the subject were unfounded. He approved of what the
Government had done; but he thought they had not gone far
enough, and he proposed to show how they could more effectually
apply the principle of taxation they had adopted, of putting as
much as possible into the Treasury, and taking as little as possible
out of the pockets of the people. It was a singular circumstance,
that the petitions laid on the table of the house, however they dif.
fin 111, all other points, agreed on this—that the pressure of taxa-
tion sees too great and too unequal. The petitions on the table were
all to dist effect. He was not one who would yield to popular opt.
nion, where it was not founded in justice ; but this opinion was
founded in justice. The hon. member fur &sex had contended,
in the late important debates, that because the country bore tax-
ation during the war, it must be able to bear It durine the peace.
During the war, however, we were able to bear it. There was at
that time a spring given to our industry, almost till then un-
known. We enjoyed at that time a monopoly of the commerce
of the world. Nut only did our capital not migrate into other
countries, but the capital of other countries Sowed in upon us.
But when peace came the whole face of things was changed.
NV, had no longer then our own prices. We were obliged to
follow the prices of other countries. Not only did we hue the
capita! of other countries. but our own capital migrated, and our
ainl industry also sought more lucrative employment elsewhere.
C'ri'er these altered circumstances, to what were we to look for
the means of enabling us to compete with the foreigner ? To a re•
doe' ion of wages of profits, or of taxation ? Wages were already at
adnimunt. P;otits were exceedingly low. It was only therefore
to a reduction of taxation that we could look for relief. If we did
not diminish the taxation on productive industry, we should lose all
the advantages which we derived from our peculiar positions from
our large eipital, and from the superior ingenuity and perseverance
of our workmen and manufacturers. But was this merely a specu-
lative notion? Had not the good erect of a reduetiun of
taxation been already experienced in other countries as well as
"err own ? Let the 'house look back at the history of the world.
Ler them read that admirable work, " La Michessetle la Holland,"
by 31. Lozac. They would there see the manner in which an er-
roneous taxation affected that country. Holland was formerly
situated nearly as we were. It had a large debt ; and although it
had not a numerous poor, yet their place was supplied in the public
expenditure by the necessity of keeping up the dykes. So great was
the anxit ty of the Dutch government to acquire information on this
imp“rtan: stihjec., that various commissions were appointed for the
txpreii. purpose; . ne of the most interesting reports front which
sae that ut,,de by a commission appointed in 1761. in the reign of
William IV. Hut it was conteuded that we had entered into con-
tracts "Aim must be maintained, that we niust preserve our good,
faith. Ile was as ready as any n.an to fulfil the public engage-
ments. and to keep up whatever establishments were necessary' for
the dignity, honour, and safety of the country. It was not so
na•li to the amount of taxation as to the incidents that he ob.
and
lie had quoted a Dutch writer—he might quote French
spanioi. Suay, I urgot, and other welters altdichired that
the %uttering under whic!i the commercial and manufacturing Clarinet
at Franc: laboured arose from the evils of uric lased
relaced taxation.
said that in his time for to raise thirty millions r the public .
Tsar‘ 415 C hundred millions were taken from the pockets of the people.
got stated that the made on which ten millions were expended
cost. the people forty millions. (Hem, heir, hear.) In the de.
I".,!'"in.g Watt of Spain that decline was attributed by thy best
_l?at.nsh writers to the most infamous impost which was wn'•••1
'awl? ever laid fel
or the manner any
Pe"
of levying taxes, Adam Smith had the fUllowlng pas-
and tax ought. to be so contrived as both to take out,
and. keep out, ot the pocket- of the people ea little as possible, over
ant atone a I.at it brings into die public treasury of the state. A
tax may tither take out or keep out of the pockets of the people a
great,_ .dineal more than it brings into the public treasury in-the four
numberfollowingo
_ways : —Firm, the levying of it may require a greater
carf officers, whose salaries may
.eat up the greater pert the prodoce of the tax,
upon he perquisite° ansi Pnee "ether additional tax upon 'the people. Secondly, t ?ay Obstruct the industry of the people, and diecouragi them
loin apping to certain branches -of 'business which raght.'give
..„^lintenance and employment ' to gnat' multitudes. While it
Wll.Ol
e the people to pay, it inter thee-diminish, a. perhaps •det-
r", souse the funds which might endble'etierd mere' tautly-to'
" kt• Thirdly; by the torfeiturms and the- perialtirs'which those

aofortunate Individuals blear who attempt unsuccessfully to evade
the tax, it may frequently ruin them, and thereby put an end
to the benefit which the community might have received hem
the employment of their capitals. FouWily, by subjecting the
people to the frequent visite and the *dims examination of the
tax.gatherer, it may expose them to much unnecessary trouble,
vexation, and oppression ; and though vexation is not, strictly
speaking, expense, it is certainly equivalent to the expense at
which every man would be willing to redeem himself from it."
Let the house look at the history of our existing taxation, and see
how closely it agreed in many respects with the description of that
kind of taxation which Adam Smith thus deprecated. In the year
1793 the revenue was only seventeen millions. That amount was
carried, by successive taxation., up to seventy millions. It would
be said by some that this took place under the administration of
Mr. Pitt. But if Mr. Pitt were now living, he (3lr. Thomson)
would call upon him, in support of his principle ; for it was a prin.
ciple which Mr. Pitt always advocated, and in the early part of his life
acted upon. Mr. Pitt might have been driven by the necessities of
the war to taxation; but the principles which he (Mr. T.) was now
maintaining, was to be found in the two great measures upon
which principally the fame of Mr. Pitt was founded the Comma.
tation Act, and the treaty of commerce with France. If Mr. Pitt
allowed himself to be hurried on in the career of taxation by the
events of a war which he every year thought was drawing to a
close, it was not wonderful that others should follow his ex.

ample. But it was reserved for Mr. Vansittart to show the
soundness of Swift's maxim, that the arithmetic of the Exche.
quer was not like the arithmetic of common life. He found no
Isiah with Mr. Vansittart or with the parliament. It was net
difficult to believe that a parliament. which had voted eft sl
time when paper was in a state of great depreciation, that spend
note and a shilling were equivalent to a guinea, would WU
no hesitation in voting anything else. He should be obliged, in
what he had to state to the house, to enter into details of figures,
which he trusted the house would pardon. He would divide the
taxes of the country into two branches. First, those taxes which,
pressing on the raw material, were injurious to our manufacturers,
and, therefore, required revision ; and, secondly, the class of taxes
which was the principal object of his motion, and to which he wished
to call the particular attention of the house; taxes far too high in
their amount, and a great reduction in which would, he was con.
yinced, be followed by no diminution whatever in their predates.
It was quite astonishing to see the manner in which, in the days
to which he had lately been alluding, taxation was treated.
The legislature seemed to be playing tricks with them, trans.
posing them, and drawing out first one card, and then anodise.
The duty on tobacco in (heat Britain had, in the course of thirty.
nine years, from 1789 to 1828, been changed three times. Ilavinn
been advanced from 360 per cent. to 1,200 per cent it was after.
wards brought down to 200 per cent. In Ireland the same duty had
been changed ten times. The duties on British spirits and gin had,
in the course of thirty years, been changed eleven times, and had been
raised 300 per cent. The duties on sugar had been chaged seventeen
times. The duty on tea had been changed seven times. The duty on
glass had been changed five times, and had been raised 500 per cent.
He came now to examine some of the taxes which pressed most heavily
on the manufacturing and other interests. And, first, there was the
timber duty; the amount of that duty was 1,630,000/. He knew
that it was a duty which involved political as well as financial
considerations • but to him it appeared most extraordinary and
absurd on the part of the legislature to make the people of
this country pay so highly for bad timber, when they might
have good at so much less a rate. and, he was persuaded, without
any injuty to the revenue, by the admission of timber from the
Baltic. (Hear.) This was one of the blessings which we owed to
111 r Vansittart. In the year 1810, when the act imposing that duty
passed, 428,000 tuns of British shipping were employed in the
Baltic trade,, being little less than one fourth of the British corn-
menial navy. He would not, however, dwell long on this point ;
because, as he had already observed, it was mixed up with political
consideration. Such was not the case with the next,which was purely
financial—the hemp duty. The duty on hemp amounted to 70,0001.
being 10 per cent. on the value of the article. If any tax in the whole list
of taxation ought to be remitted, it was merely this. Hemp was a
material which entered into the composition of numerous products
affecting our greatest manufacturing interest. The next article to
which he should advert was soap. The gross revenue of soap was
1.374 0001. the net revenue 1,203,000/. The duty on hard soap was
threepence a pound ; but it was not merely the amount of the duty.
the regulations respecting the manufacture of it were most absurd
and Injurious. There were seven different ways of collecting the
duty on soap, which must give rise necessarily to frauds. He knew
two houses which were carrying on the trade upon the capital
of the country. There was a drawback on soap sent to Ireland,
and the manufacturers in Liverpool, who were not called upon for
the duty fur six weeks, received the drawback immediately, and
upon this drawback actually carried on the trade. A duty of 70
per cent. would be more productive than one of 100 per cent. The
duty on barilla was too high. It was more than cent. per mut
These were trifles, but not so the next.duty, that on seaborne coals.
However defensible it might have been, when coals were used pets.
cipally for fire, it was not so now, when the article was so much
used in manufactures. The result of it was to drive manufactures
inland. This was the first tax that should be repealed. 'Thom
were many other taxes that might be done away with with adorn.
tage. He should now come to the taxmen glass, paper, and printed
calicoes, the gram amount of which was 933,0001. and the net
amount 813,0001. only. The duty on Blass was raised by Mr. Van.
sittart. In 1794 the duty was low, and the consumption at home
was 87,000 weight; when the duty was raised it fell to 28,000
weight In 1827 the duty was again lowered, and the conaump.
tion, increased to 68,000 weight; at present the consumption,
with all the increase of luXury, was only what it was in 1794.
In the act there were not less than twenty-four clauses, all moss in.
convenient to the manufacturer. The duty on flint glass was per
lb. cent per cent. The duty was laid either when the glass was
turned out of the pan, or after. The duty, before it was
turned out, was three-pence a pound, and six-pence after, as it
gained in weight about 60 per cent. The cost of the Excise,
he was informed, was 26 per cent. in addition to the duty of
100 per cent. lie was told, by an intelligent manufacturer, that
were it not for the Excise and the mat duty, he could compete, in
any market of Europe, with foreign manufacturers. The cosec.
quence of this state of things was, that English manufacturers were
prevent' d from making experiments to improve the manufacture,
and to produce colours, red for instance, which were most desired.
He had no doubt that If the tax were reduced, the consumption
would be greatly increased, and the revenue not at all diminished.
He should new come to the article of paper. The net produce of
the tax was 065,00 W. Would the house believe that there were
Epenalties on the manufacturers amounting to 100,0001. The
xcise officers might enter their premises, as he was informed by
a constituent of his own, day or night, whenever they pleased.--
He had two letters on the subject from very intelligent men.—[ Here
the hon. member read extracts from those letters, mentioning in de-
tail various inconveniences to which manufacturers were subjected
in their operations by the law as it at present stood, the excise
officers having a right, at any time, to enter the premises, to inspect
the labels, for one of which, If it happened to be lost or mislaid' a
penalty of one hundred pounds wait incurred. It was also stated
that, in consequence of thesedifficulties and inconveniences the pope
manufacture was in a considerable measure migrating from this ems.
try.]—The next tax to which he should come was that on printed,
calicoes, a subject to which the member for Montrose (Mr. Hume),
whom he did nut now see in his place--(a laugh), had upon a for-
mer occasion, drawn the attention of the house. The duty raised
on printed eallicoes was 699,0001. a sum not very considerable it was
true, but the principle was bad, for the duty vas ohm greater than
the value of the article itself. But the great objection to the tax
was its inequality. It was charged at Sid. the square yard. Tina
it pressed upon she poor, and not upon the rich. The whole soma
of these three taxes was 2,626,000/. He might be told that sea a
substitute must be found if these taxes were sedum'. He was of
opinion that the reduction might be met by a lessening of the public
establishments. There were other ways also by which the deficiency
might be made up. A tax upon the transfer of personal, as well as
upon that of land was recommended by some, and in this way
the deficiency might met ; but upon that he would give noopinise.
He did not hesitate to say, that he was favourably disposed so I pin
of taxation which, they were informed, had been lately under Ai
consideration of government, but be would now enter upon the see.
ject. There were five branches of taxation. sugar, tea, forelon
'wines, 'plats, and tobacco, from which, be felt confident, if •Ibe
taxes were reduced, sufficient resourses would arise, by increase of
coniumption. to meet any deficiency of income arising from the op.
peal et' the other taxes. These five branches of revenue producedisn'
gether upwards of 16,000,0001. If they could reduce any of timul
withobt arty reduction of income, as he thought they might, it would
confer upon the public a most important benefit, without any injury to
the Excuer. There was no axiom more true than this, that to
tens of taxation two and two did not always make four; bat anther etons
teary, did not frequently nuke even one. In proof of this, be might
confidently refer to the whole history of their taxation, both in
Greet Britain and Ireland, for many years beck. " One Awe
alone was sufficient to prove that a reduction of tams did not al,
ways produce an equal reduction of income. Though 9,100,0001. of
taxed had been'mken off various articles since the termination Of the
war, the gross amount now arising from them am less by a aunt
only 3;700,000. If they proceeded further, upon a like prinelpb,
they might naturally expect like results. The Gest *neck In thud
live branches of taxation, to which he should. draw the attention of
the hou.e, sou foreign wine. A century bark the consumption. of
!Boolean: wine in this infantry war 14.000 gallons.- and* woo tw*
ammely 1,400. The right hots, gentleman OM Usancalloe of the
LiCtleqUetYllhOok hi* head at this, as if he 4o bled the earreetnesi,
Of his statement, but he did.mot speak •without asithority. It
.J 791, and from that to 1793, Aire &maga sonsurnpriee of Bor.'
dams wine was 27,000 gallons a year and of all the ether sere
me. *Me; 7,11,811911 stations r hi kel3.''tritelrOMi dietZto, iskatloo
per cent. the consumption fell to 38,000 galvms'' ease holbei

only MOON ; in 1822 the duty was lowered from 164. sd. ti
Ids. sd. and the consumption increased to 171,000 gallons; be.
twain 1791 and 1822 there was a falling of in the consumption
of all foreign wines in Great Britain, from 7,160.000 to 5.000,0811
gallons, and though the duty was raised 350 per cent. the in.
crease in the revenue was nor more than 70 per cent. Nothing
could more clearly prove that heavy taxes were impolitic. Tbey
diminished consumption, and deprived the people of comforts and
luxuries, without any thing like an equivalent advantage to the
revenue. The duty on wines was again reduced by the late Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer, and the consequence was an increased con-
sumption ; but, even now, the consumption notwithstaiffing the
rat increase of population, only equalled the consumption of 1791.
The ease was similar In Ireland; there the duty was raised 500 per
cent. but the consequent income of revenue was no more than 30
per rent. By a further reduction of the duty on wine*, he thought
it probable that the revenue might be raised six per cent. If it were
brought down to 3a. the gallon, he felt confident that the revenue
would be increased, and both countries, France and Great Britain
derive substantial and mutual benefits from the measure, a more
extended market being opened for those articles which each country
would give in exchange for the produce of the other. He moved
the treaty with Portugal would no longer stand in the way of such
an arrangement; and that, for the purpose of securing commercial
advantages to a comparatively distant country, they would not con.
tinue to oppose obstacles to a more tree intercourse with a neighbouring
and friendly nation. The next article he should come to was to.
bscco, one in general use, essential to the comforts of the lower
claws, and therefore most materially affecting their interests.
When the duty stood at la 3d. a pound, the consumption in
Great Britain was 10,972,00015. The duty was raised to 2s. 2d.
and the consumption decreased. In 1824 the duty was doubled.
The consumption was 13,000,0001 b. and the revenue only
2,600,0001. though if it had kept pace with the increase of duty,
it should have been 3,000,0001. In 1825 the duty was. reduced
to 3s. The consumption in consequence was 14,704.000, and
the revenue 2,200.0001. so that, though the duty was reduced
one-fourth, the falling off in the revenue was only 400,0001.
The cue of Ireland with respect to the article of tobacco was
still more strong. For some year's, from 1794, the duty was &I. and
the consumption 7,500,0001 b. When the .duty was subsequently
raised to 4s. the consumption fell to 2,582,000, little more than
one fourth of that at which it stood before. The duty was reduced
in •1025, and the consumption increased to about 5,000,0001 b.
It was absurd to suppose that Ireland, in 1794, with a poptils.
don of about three millions, consumed 7,500,00016. of tobacco,
while now, with a populaion of seven or eight millions, she did
not consume nearly so much. The article, therefore, must be
supplied by illegal means. Indeed, it was in evidence that smug.
gling in tobacco was carried on to a great extent both in Ireland
and Scotland, and it was an article whith afforded great facilities
for the purpose. The next thing he should come to was Foreign
spirits, and first Foreign gin. By a paper laid upon the table it
appeared that, on an average, from 1773 to 1782, the consumption
was 644,0001 b. the duty being 10s. The duty was subsequently rot
duced to ss. and there were imported 2,000,000 gallons of gin, and
an equal quantity of rum. Itrhen the duty was subsequently raised,
it was paid only on 900,090 of Foreign spirits of all kinds, and on
2,781,000 gallons of rum. From the year 1822 to 1825 the con-
sumption of rum was 2,737,000 gallons, and, with the increase of
duty which then took place, the whole amount of duty received, in
each year, was only 1,504,i001. From 1826 to 1828 the duty was
reduced, and the revenue was nearly equal to what it was under the
double duty. At this time too there was no falling offin the consump.
tion of British spirits, and the revenue amounted to 3,123,0001. being
an increase of 150,0001. In 1821 the spirits raised in Scotland was
2,200.000 gallons, and the duty, at ss. the gallon, 727,0001. When
the duty was afterwards seduced to its. the consumption was proper..
tionally increased, so that the duty received was 009,0001. In Ireland,
at the same perisd, the number of gallons which paid duty was
2,649,000. the revenue being 9/2,000L The consumption, when the
duty was reduced, rose to 9,937,000, and the revenue to t:.227,0001.
so that there was, on the whole, an increase of revenue produced by a
decrease of duty. It might be said that this was a result not at all to
be desired, and he might be told that the use of ardent spirits led
to immorality ; and that therefore it was the duty of • wise and
prudent legislature to oppose difficulties in the way of their con-
sumption. It appeared to bin. that, however the abuse of spirits, or
any other article of consumption, might be deplored, nothing could
be more absurd than to interfere by legal enactment with the habits
of the people. In proof of this he might refer to what took place
in 1746, when very heavy penalties were imposed on persons who
dealt in gin, yet, in the face of these penalties, 600,000 gallon,
were consumed in London alone. If the duty on tobacco and spi-
rits was reduced, it would render unnecessary the preventive eyes
tem, which cost the country a very considerable sum. Us amid
Wit
h to now come to the tax on sugar and tea. With to the first, he
could have little to say, after the very able of his tight hos.
friend, the member for Inverness-shire( r. C. Grant). It
peared fo him that it was a duty incumbent on them to do sottsM
to assist the West India interest. The other article to be noticed wool
tea. Upon this subject some alteration was absolutely necessary; ass
only for the benefit of the public, but for the benefit of the revenues
Our present consumption was now little more than than it was two*.
years ago, owing to the vast increase of the duty. If the duty
were lessened we should have a better article, and googillog
Ito a great extent would be prevented. He merely Oki to
_kr
grounds for the appointment of a committee for inquiry,ondi be had
Ino doubt that a general reduction on tobacco, foreign *its, aid
teas, would be beneficial to the country. The stamps wpm its pot.
licks, insurances, newspapers, and advertisements, if relooll, woad
so doubt prove beneficial to the revenue. Sea policies Milan in
the course of a few years, owing to the rate of insurance, sod the Des
suit was that they were effectd in the United States, Gamey, and
Holland. The fire insurance in this country, was osmanoo risks,
one shilling and sixpence, while the duty to govennteslit was titres
shillings. : his atone prevented the insurance of posgerly, and led
to the most serious Losses. Since 1816 the income of insurance
was only 16,0001. although the increase of papacy bad been
so immense. lie was happy to come to the last article, 01M. 9
the duty upon newspapess,and he was satisfied, if the duty were
reduced one penny, the revenue would greatly increase. The returns
to Parliament chewed 324 newspapers in the United Kingdom—the'
total consumption of newspapers was above 17 millions; while in
the Vaned States there were 800 newspapers, making a total of five
to owe greater than those in England. In France the circulation
=was seventy thousand against thirty -four thousand In Eng- '
With the reduction of stamps, them should also be a re-
daction of the duties upon adveriisements. There were ten millions
el .odvertimementx in the United States, and in England there
wan tine-tenth less ; whams, if the duty were reduced, the amount
of maws would be considerably increased. He had now gone
6.'840 the list of taxes which he would be glad to see done away,
sod Wien, of a less objectionable nature, substituted for them. His
object was to have • careful examination of those taxes, and he
trusted no one would object to grant his motion. He had no want
of confidence in his majesty's ministers; on the contruy, his pat
abject was to lend a greater degree of effect to the wishes and the
views of government. Mary interests were concerned in this
subject, and therefore a committee would be the best means
of Nameiling and and adjusting them. He knew not the die.',
pukka of his majesty's government ; but whatever their decision
night be, be trusted the house would vote for his motion. Here
was a defined proposition, and he would appeal to all those who
had presented petitions from the people, no matter on which tide of
the house, to enter into that inquiry which might relieve the die.
Inmaes of the country, and, by so doing they would be doing justice
'ID their own characters and the best interests of the notion. The
him. member concluded by moving for the appointment of a select
INnuiniteise re Inquire into the present state of taxation, with a view'
le diminish those taxes which press most heavily upon the labour-
*and productive classes of the people, witbout any diminution of
'the news of snpporting the necessary revenue, and keeping tiuth
with the public creditor.
?he motion being seconded,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER observed, that
althaegh he agreed with many parts of the speech of the honourable
member, yet, notwithstanding that concurrence, he still felt it to be
his imperative duty to resist the motion.—{Hear, bear, bear.)—Hs
was ono of those who always thought. it most advisable to. Feist the
the 5.,--.. with 0- se possible disadv

botoseary supplies for . . biate ebb the least p. Avantage
Weise public, and that taxes should be eolevied as to bear with the
lost possible weight upon the productive industry of the country.-1
,Ilt was the duty of Government to relieve the people from taxes In
limy shape they weld ; but in a country where taxation existed .
did
here, and where it was absolutely to impose them,
house should remember that the necessities of the moment led
such an meant as, in ordinary circumstances, would never have
resorted to. The Government coesidered it their duty to do
d.',2kciluld'irCii.Tieedww`iitT,e;h7rktuiceeveZebrfnnjcuhryoftotaztleti°gZ
imams of the country. If the motion acre agreed to, it
produce a bad Impression upon the public mind, because it
appose as if the object were to promote particulai
rather than the public good. In his situation he had
apponunities of knowing the danger of preliminary answers
thogevevnasent before any general arrangement was announced;
they would lead to the tweet of trade, idle and minims spiculstions
would be entered into borsht hon. members daily represented
Yee. partitnier eentlition, the wanftaad -wishes of their ontstittscots i
end ilia his official capacity be had (OM then decisive,
total suspension of lisle wadi ' - the - - " -
ppm' et all the tax, .could nor,
*ars: Another great difficulty
reseimustwk& by the hereseembee. _
*flaw Irbickfrpr. tabe,.ampalimi .4 IPlift
whore stated how the —.Pni., was so be ispp
ther ntlesioll of certain: duties esnatessisieneaso7"=l
rester consumption of the ankles '
drould know. that in the ankles
. .

warn, to sap the least of te, a very hazardous experiment, and until It
was shown morediadoctir WU-the public credit could be maintained,
the recommendation ot tib• bon- member should not be yielded to. To
take this subject in another point of view,be would ask what was there
in the conduct of the government as so the reduction of taxation,
which should take that duty out of their hands, and transter it to a
committee? Had the government shown any indisposition to reduce
the taxes on the labouring cheeses ? Had they not, in fact, been
forward in selecting those for diminution which all agreed were
prominently marked for reduction ? It was said by some that they
bed gone beyond the limits of sound dhicretion ; but, so far from
that being the case—so far were they from neglecting their ditty.
that he could confidently plead not guilty to the charge. He thotight
it was as clear as.elay that if Government had rot gone to the fell
extent of reduction, it was only because they could go no farther.
(Hear, hear.) Feeling that the Government ha not neglected thee
duty—feeling that they had afforded redress to the utmost extent—
and considering the repeal of such taxes as the circumstances of :he
country would most beneficially permit, the Government could tot
abandon their proper duty, and of course he could not concur in the
proposal for the appointment of a committee. To conclude the few
observations he had made. he would only add, that it would be an
abdication of the duty of Government, if they had not determined to
resist the motion of the lion. member. (Hear, hear.)

Mr. BANKES said that he did not wish the government to ab-
dicate its proper functions, and devolve them upon a committee ;
but. nevertheless, he was an advocate for inquiry. The public credit
should be maintained, but in his view that could not be done with-
out a commutation of taxes, which could be best investigated by
committee. Ile wished as far uhe could to spare the poor, and
throw the burden upon the opukrt--and. in saying so. he meant
that a propetty.tax should be levied—and the sooner it was done
the better tor the benefit of the country. He believed that nets of
property would be benefited by such a tax, although apparent') it
might do them injury. On these grounds he would give his sup-
port to the motion.
Mr. ROBINSON said he would support the motion, althougl.
he dilEred Mum his hon. friend as 111 the subjects upon which tie
proposed a reduction of duties. lie would not. tOr instarce, reduce
the duties on French wines. tor to France we did not export the on.. .
fourth of what was sent to Portugal.
31r. 31ABERLV said the appointment of a committee was
ne-
cessary, in order to carry into effect what the government said it
was absolutely necessary to do. He wished to relieve distress by a
reduction of the public expenditure, the only legitimate mode of
' effecting it. He could not concur in die recommendation of a pro.
perry tax in the time of peace, because, though it might be neces-
sary in a time of war, if it existed during a of peace the pub
would be the less able to bear such a burden.
Mr. BAltlNti did not dery that on some articles a redtiction
of taxation would prove beneficial, such as sugar, wine, &e.
but still he c mid not consent without any surplus revenue, to
make any hazardous experiment. He could not agree that landed.
.property in its transmission should be visited with a large statitti
duty, for it was already sufficiently buttheried. The honourable
member for Dorsetshire met the question boldly, and suggested a
property tax ; but he considered such a tax unsuited to this country
except in the emergency of a war. It was in fuct the most opines.
sive mode of taxation which could he devima in a civilised country.
A property tax would also increase rather than lessen the absentees,
and even to that extent it was highly undesirable. In fact, it nett r
could be imposed 'without the most injurious effects in a time of
(Hear.) They had of necessity an income to produce, and
peaces
not see how it was to be raised without machinery. 't he
argument for taking away the coast blockade could not be sus-
tained. If they took away the Excise officers and reduced the clinks
it would not prevent smuggling. The country would be inundated
with articles now bearing small duties.
General GASCOVNE said this was a motion to abrogate tie
duties of his majesty's government, and to d legate those duties for
which ministers only were responsible, to a committee. The house
was not aware of the danger to which they were exposed. A pro-
perty tax had been recommended, and if ministers were out-voted
they might corns down to-morrow and propose an income tax.
When he saw persons who on a former occasion opposed an income
tax stand forward on that occasion the advocates of such a taxes
(No, no,)—it exceeded in his opinion all the inconsistency of the
preseninconsistent times. Honourable members who supported
the motion had made up their minds to a property tax.—(No, no.)
In the present state of agricultural distress, he would say a tax upon
properry.derived from land could not be paid.

Mr. WARBURTON, condemning former measures, brought
forward by men of integrity, found himself disposed to vote for the
motion of his hon. friend. With respect toe property tax he should
say nothing. It would be premature to discuss a question which
was for the considersion of the committee.
Lord ALTHORP—With resixct to the argument that the
appointment of a committee would probably introduce a property
tax, the noble lord did not think that would be the necessary cone.
=lf the question of a property tax were regularly argued, he
say, that relieving the suffering part of the country from
taxation by the application of a property tax would be beneficial.
He had formerly taken a different view of the question, but he
thought now if 10 per cent. was imposed on laud that the land.
owners would gain by the arrangement. The state of distress was
now so great that nothing was to be gained by land. The noble
lord was satisfied the state of the country was using to the
arranged state of taxation. The country could bear more than it
sustained at present, but the badly arranged taxation interfering
with the manufacturer and the working classes, produced all the
evils under which they suffered. The noble lord supported the
motion.

Dlr. BERRIES said it was a two-fold motion—first a Budget,
and secondly, an inquisition into all the scheme of our taxation, to
be carried on by a Committee. It had been considered by many
honourable members an indirect substitution of a Property Tax, in
lieu of many taxes which the honourable mover did not approve.—
This Budget had been censured in severe terms. The hupourahle
member for Callingtod had called It a profligate motion. The ho-
nourable member for Dorset had taken the earliest opportunity
of reprobating the tenure of this Budget. They could DOS have
a more miserable expedient than that of having recourse to
successive loans and votes of credit.—(Hear.}.—lt was only
yesterday that a deputation waited on him fur the reduction of the
duties upon a particular trade, and they said on that occasion,
whatever you do let it not be known until it is done. If you sulky
your intention to transpire you will stop the trade. In the same man.
ner would the proceedings of a select committee operate upon every
trade; in short, a committee could not be justified in taking the sub-
ject out of the hands of government. He thought perhaps that it
would be beneficial to remove the pressure of taxation front one part
of the community to another, but that did not prove that it was then
the proper time to adopt a propery.tax.
Sir H. PARNELL adverted to the proceedings in the Finance
Committee, and thought that the Committee had objected to inquiry
into certain parts of the revenue ; and he called upon the honour.
able member for Callington to look to what the manufacturers were
doing in the Netherlands, and decide whether the manufacturers
under the present state of taxation could compete with foreigners.
The hon. Baronet recommended the arrangement of the wholeof the
Imes in a Committee, and thereby see what taxes might be thrown
overboard. If the House thought proper to relieve industry .to the
amount of 2,600.000 L meats might be resorted to, without a pro-
, peety tax. He had no ejection to a well.regulated property tax,
but there was no occashirs for it. They might reduce the civil
rents, and the army and navy, wWch would raise a sum
to render a property tax unneerssary.
Mr. Secretary PEEL said the 'propos! wan certainly one which
guild appear for the first time in the annals of perlisnrent. The
'potion was that a select committee be appointed for the' porpoie of
revising and considering the wltele system of taxation.' That
house had the power to inform itself of every tax, soel if they
had such a power, his advice was to reserve the pentiession of
il(berar, bear, hear.) The right honourable gentlemen' &st-
yled the house to rely upon its united strength for the attainmeot
edr an important question, and not 'delegate its porter to a 'select
cousmitttee. (Hear.) He should give no opinion on a propetLe tax.
but he advised gentlemen not to consent to give up the multi&• to a
select committee. They ought to reflect That the governMilii 'Res re.
spossible for their memuren,and that thegovernment would 1)e screened
under & select committee. Every gentleman ought toconsider that no
one had stated in clear terms how a property tax was to be ippfia. If
then wereany Irish members present, they would feel. Olt tlrelated
bad hitherto been no party in a property tax. The appointment
of twentyione prisons would make them the most inilmetant men
in AK country. They would have a power which he. for one,suld
sot consent to give to any men.' The government WAS bound' to op-
pose the motion. He would never • consent to remain a`noillittal
officer of the crown for the purpu,e of registering, tbi ediepi of a
committee.— (Hear )
Mr. BRIGHT opposed the motion. He would never tonaret to
'pave that roo,t abtomipable tax, the roperty?tax, reacted. Mr. MIJSKION said if the appointment of a committee under
the cheumstances stated Was untionstoutior.aktte for ooe-ohotifd'op.,
pose it. The right hon. gentleman tootended that the stuns powersproposed to be given to this committeehid been given to the mi-
n-duet: on trade, and other committees of inquiry ; he data 'truth
or expect that the Wawa of the committee 'Moult( beraken.oo. the
ground upon which the house would proceed, either to inditee or to
impose _razes. Alt lw visjbeel mos. that the house and the country
elicit try
_
Nh+Slill

of

II 1t•

tlicuy cowl
such abuse
satisfy the
dons on tl
tiovemmet
enough, at
apply the
much as p
out of the
that the pe
ft/CCM al
tion wal. t(
all to that
nion, whe
founded it
in the lot
ation &it
During th
that time
known.
of the wo
countries,
But whet
We had
follow tt
capita!
Ail and
Unties th
the mean!
diaf ion id
plinimu
to a rldUe
1101 Bimini
the advant
our large •
of our am
lative no
taxation
our own
Ler them
by 31. Li
roneous
situated
had not a
txpenditu
the :mai( t
iniportan:
express
was that t
tracts ro,t
faith. If
°tents, ar
the digni
nokli to
jected.
and span i
the sulteri
ot Franc:
dully yft
venue a h
'forgot st
cost the p
dining at
Spanish
taiPIY ev
of the ma
sage
and keep
and ahoy
tax may
great dea
following
number
to the
Impose
tray dust
from app
nJ sin renal
ablillty ti
I'l soon.
WO bu. .1.

- . . ..
ada copse t 1 ha bed sine deg* decisive u •
nwell, should have UK bait Odle Infuenuidpi,o.hich mold pptfaiL be to
a et tide would be the weal.
An inquiry into the elicited by dick inveetiptions. /hi these reitsoni he iboold eel!
1. teas" .could nate •osodocietl whims enxelderabie for the rnntion.
her sleet docility and would arise in the Nurse tibl C. 8= said that le 110 i big_ "pivot thivpotipn, he
I, the hommeimbet• ileemleeed him *We &tan should tuti ' - iiiionifitiidy it& ?fie !natio& w itch be :A-
-friotosPl 11t.be.J•10414 at leileulad, .10111 b* tea. witted tithe bouseos,ol•l night. 114.1,44;thes props* a Ir.
et the. deficiency was to lisapplied. ,Be atilt this Amodio', foe a imptsitttip4opspr.3out . here. ithe,tkeal; 4pc-
f caulks duties oterbiseesprneate for the loam by the Akiiije es limo ireio to be*abandoXed, &ski
ption of the ankles taxed : bet the tint+. ortiltaiinneßdt sooppitgon. .
hat In the articles Which he *ld ealled..lo,..khet ! OM .ft 4.lhT..mtlt)" upon thmeitteAtilhe
pr ithaalsee a orithaoltraillionaidirellesse.• M. .of lb* Ute wet. t 9 k cuvelided iit f a

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