The Sun.
London, England, 1845-05-29 00:00:00

ADJOURNED DEBATE.
_ _ .

Mr. P. HO WARD said when he had moved the ad-
journment of the debate the other night he had felt
anxious to have addressed the House, but owing to the
lateness of the hour he did not at that time deem it ad-
visable to intrude his opinions on the subject. It had
been remarked, by a very acute observer of passing
-events, that unity was as necessary to political as it was
to artistical effect. In former times it was the custom,
on the introduction of a party measure, to resolve the
riouse-into a Committee on the state of the nation, and
al though such a course might appear somewhat vague
in
.kts object, or stringent in its effects, it was tanta-
moL wt to a withdrawal of confidence in Ministers, If I

the effect of the proposed measure occasioned a with-
drawal of confidence in the Administration, it
would not, in his opinion, tend to the benefit of the
country at large. He conceived he should not be
justified in yielding his assent to those restrictive reso-
lutions which would have that effect. If the Noble
Lord had said that the proposed measure was merely a
resolution to give his own private opinion to the House
—if he had announced his intention of not taking the
opinion of the House, Hon. Members would have been
happy to have been enlightened by the expression of his
wisdom and experience; but for the Noble Lord uncom-
promisingly to pledge every Member to every one of
those resolutions was what he (Mr. Howard) could not
deferentially submit to. He was not unprepared to admit
that the unsettled state of the country was mainly at-
tributable to the panic occasioned by the First Lord of
the Treasury ; but he would have the House to under-
stand thoroughly the nature of the proposed resolutions,
and to ponder over them maturely before they came to a
definite opinion on the matter. The ultimate results of
this measure might prove to be dangerous, disagreeable
and bad. One of the principal objects oithose resolu-
tions was evidently to introduce a change in the corn-
laws, and that was a question which could not bo pru-
dently under-estimated. When the Noble Lord proposed
the alteration of the present duty to four shillings or
six shillings he did not proceed with the judgment,
which, in his opinion, would result advantageously and
beneficially to the condition of her Majesty's subjects.
During the time the Noble Lord was a Minister of the
Crown he had proposed a duty of eight shillings, which
he considered would tend to satisfy the demands of all
classes, but the attempt was unsuccessful. He (Mr.
Howard) considered there were more efficient and more
practicable means to accomplish the desired object.
He considered that if there was a deficiency of corn,
that is was from the colonies they should be first sup-
plied. It was desirable, before altering the present
corn-laws in favour of foreign powers, to ascertain what
they would give this country in return. If this country
were to take an unlimited quantity of wheat, those
powers might impose an export duty upon grain to be
shipped to this country, and thus the condition of the
consumer and the country would not be improved, while
the whole agricultural interest would be made to suffer.
The other evening he was much satisfied at hearing the
proposition of the Right Hon. Baronet, the Secretary
for the Home Department, for altering parochial settle-
ments, and that measure, if modified in some of its
provisions with respect to settlement by birth, and set-
tlement by local residence, would remove much of the
hardships which at present were inflicted on the work-
ing classes, and be a much more practical course towards
meeting the condition of the country, than the course
proposed by the Noble Lord the Member for the City
of London. With respect to emigration, it was his opi-
nion that it should not be compulsory. The Board of
Trade ought to be an authorised body to afford intend-
ing emigrants every necessary information, but not to
force such a step upon the people. There was at present
a prospect of successful emigration. The cloud which
had overhung New Zealand was clearing away, and it
would afford a wide and valuable field for the purposes
of colonization. That country, so favourable to
human ezertion, and so well adapted to the
constitution of the people of this empire, he was sure
might be made a place of the greatest resort for emi-
grants, and produce not only on those who went there,
but to the country they had left behind, the best possible
effects. The Noble Lord had set out with stating that
this was a period of political tranquillity and commer-
cial prosperity, and then he went on to state a series of
propositions respecting the condition of the people. In
those propositions he sought to make extensive altera-
tions, in the face of the declaration by which they were
preceded respecting the flourishing condition of the
country. This appeared to him inconsistent. The Reform
Bill had been !alluded to by the Hon. Baronet the
Member for Essex, who spoke the other evening with
respect to that measure. He (Mr. Howard) thought the
results had been most gratifying, to both the country
and that House, as it left the Government more indepen-
dent and unfettered in its course, and less dependant on
party for support. To alter the provisions of that mea-
sure he judged highly impolitic, and hence he could not
support the motion of the Hon. Member for Rochdale
(Mr. S. Crawford) for an extension of the suffrage. He
believed, also, the country was indifferent to the subject.
In these times of prosperity worthy and industrious
working-men had the means of acquiring, by their
exertion, the elective franchise, and this he looked upon
as one of the great advantages of a representative system.
The Noble Lord, with his accustomed eloquence, had
adverted to the subject of education of the people. Now,
he (Mr. Howard) was not indifferent to the extension of
education, but it ought not to be overlooked that the
Executive Goverareent, who had taken up that subject,
had encountered considerable difficulty on that sub-
ject. Wero religion excluded, as in the case of the pro-
posed Colleges for Ireland, then objections were started
that such an education tended to infidelity ; or if, on the
other hand, religion were made a peculiar feature,
then the religions that were not favoured were
excited into opposition. He had been much
pleased in listening to the able statement of the Noble
Lord, but he thought it out of all precedent to introduce
such a string of abstract resolutions as he had done.
He (Mr. Howard) had sat in that House fifteen years,
and he had never known any Hon. Member introduce,
at any one time, any motion that would involve
such extensive changes :as that of the Noble Lord.
At the present time he thought the motion out of place,
and hence he should oppose it. He believed that
nothing beneficial to the country could flow out of it.
Mr. ESCOTT agreed with what the Hon. Gentleman
who had just sat down had stated respecting the motion
being made up of a string of abstract resolutions ; but
they, nevertheless, involved important practical results.
The propositions of the Noble Lord contemplated great
changes. They set out with a statement respecting the
political
tranquillity and commercial prosperity of the
country, and then entered into a series of questions, the
direct object of which appeared to be, the changing of
that Government by which this state of tranquillity and
prosperity had been brought about. —(Cries of
" Hear, hear.") That was the only intelligible
meaning that could be applied to the motion. He con-
sidered the question had been brought forward at a very
improper time, and with no hope of leading to any be-
neficial end. He looked upon it as a dangerous ques-
tion, and more calculated to excite the feelings than to
appeal to the judgment of the people of the country.
This was no time for bringing up the question of the
people's distress, or with profit and advantage to all
parties concerned. With proper management, and with
a due cultivation of the soil, there was ao necessity for
emigration. With regard to education, he thought
there was no necessity for going into the sub-
ject at present, seeing that the matter was in
the hands of the Government. But the great question in-
volved by the Noble Lord's motion was that of exciting
an agitation to make the working classes discontented
with their condition. Such discussions did no good
as they led to no beneficial or practical result. The
Noble Lord the Member for Dorsetahire had much to
answer for in this respect. He, had brought subjects
before their notice which were only calculated to excite
benevolent feelings without ending in any benefit to the
parties who were the subject of those feelings. The
Noble Lord (the Member for London) he was afraid
was liable to something of the same charge. Any en-
couragement of emigration he (Mr. Escott) held would
be attended with no great benefit, nor did he think it
necessary that such a step should be carried out. He '
believed that this country even with its present prices
could beneficially employ the whole population, If the mo-
tion of the Noble Lord were carried it would be followed
up with the most important alterations in the corn-laws.
The Hon. Member for Essex had stated that there was no
plan proposed. Certainly there was no new plan. He
remembered a Noble Lord, not then in his place
(Lord Palmerston), two years ago, on a motion ou the
import duties, reflected on what he termed the Govern-
ment's pedantic adherence to former professions.
That Noble Lord had a right to act upon the oppo-
site principle himself; but he (Mr. Escott) could not
say that the Noble Lord who had introduced the present
motion had so acted, for he had certainly shown a
most romantic adherence to his former opinions. He
had made inquiries from Members both in and out
of that House, with respect to their feelings on the fixed
duty, and with the exception of the Noble Lord the
Member for London there was not one in favour of it.
That being the case, he should like to know how or with
whom ha meant to form his Government with
respect to the fixed duty. The Noble Lord the Mem-
ber for Sunderland might certainly change his mind upon
the subject ; but, till lie heard that that was the case,
he had no right to assume it as fact; and usder these cir-
cumstances he was at a loss to know hew the Noble Lord in
tended to carry into effect the principle for which he had
so perseveringly contended. There was another reason
which made the conduct of the Noble Lord still more
astonishing. It was not more than six weeks ago
since he had heard the Noble Lord !Jay that pro-
tection was the bane of agriculture.—(Hear, hear.)
On a great question such as the corn-laws—a ques-
tion on which so much depended—it was absolutely
necessary that the House should deliberate carefully as
to any course it should adopt. It seemed to him that
there were two parties in that House, and the country
too, on this question. He denied, however, that there
was any great feeling agitating the country in reference
to it. The great free traders and protectionists who
had been so prominent two or three years age, bad
softened down, and there was now no longer anything
like the interest which some time ago had been taken in
it. In the country there was no agitation. He must
say, that it was creditable to the Honourable
Members on that side of the House to give up
the high rates of duty, which they had recently
done. It proved there was no selfishness connected
with them; and he did not hesitate to say, that they had
acted a noble and a generous part. The other part of
the House who took a different view of the subject were
of two classes—part of them, who called themselves the
farmer's friends, and for whom he entertained the greatest
respect, were, he thought, influenced in their opposition
by the best motives. He considered that they were desi-
rous to promote the interest of the people, and he
honoured them for their intentions, however ranch he
differed from them as to the mode of carrying them out.
But he did not understand the other class of the farmer's
friends. He did not understand those who went down
to the country and made an outcry, and raised their
shouts against measures which they themselves had, by
tagthhneeadtitrcerthvehdoeeeitters, helped to carry into eifoct.—( Hear, hear,
Isfa.o)t t e
chToehirrantgßo
owilladsw a
intentions! sectb on f farmers
changed,
From
awtnhhdeoumnp
ora wereat
Itu
oot
circumstances of that change, it was impossible for the
Government to fall back upon the old principle, and the
result was that the whole system of protection was com-
pletely undermined.—(Hear, hear.)
An Hosionaleez MEMBER here rose, and moved thee
the House be counted, when strangers were ordered to
withdraw. There being forty members present the
debate was continued.
Mr. ESATT.—From the moment it was avowed
that the object of protection was to raise the price of
corn, and put mosey into the pockets of the landowners

from that moment the principle of protection had re-
ceived a blow from which it had never recovered. There
was one way of defending it, and if protection was
not to be defended on the ground of giving a more
regular supply of corn, but on the contrary, of pro-
ducing an artificial scarcity to put money into the
pockets of the landholders, then might he say with truth
that the cause of protection was gone. That was a
more staggering blow than it had ever yet received.
He felt it his duty to state, and he believed the majority
of the country came to the same conclusion, that from
the time the Honourable Member for Kent, the Mem-
ber for Sutherland, and the Duke of Richmond (in
another place), had made the statements to which he
alluded, the cause of protection had suffered, for it
was impossible that the people could be convinced by
such arguments. It might, perhaps, be prejudicial to
him—and it might be disagreeable to many of his
friends, to whom he owed great political and public sup-
' port, to have spoken as he had done that evening; but no
consideration of that kind, no favours of such a nature,
highly as he valued thorn, should induce him to suppress
his views of what lie considered right on this great ques-
tion, or to sacrifice his integrity. There were one or two
' other points, and one to which he would particularly al-
' lude before he sat down. Much had been said of the
greatness of the public distress that prevailed in the
country. He concurred in a great deal of what had
been stated in reference to that, and he would ba glad
to ask some of those Gentlemen who had left the
llouse, and who had very eloquently alluded to it, what
was the cause of the farmer's distress. He had lately been
in the country, and he could assure the House that
the want of keep was the great cause of this distress.
And how could any other state of things be expected
after the winter and spring which had just passed over.
When his Right Hon. Friend (Sir J. Graham) whom he
was glad to sae in his place, had stated a few evenings
ago the lowest price of meat, he confessed he did feel sur-
prise. The Right Hon. Gentleman, however, was under a
mistake. It was higher, he contended, than it had
been for many years, and the reason was the scarcity of
keep in the country. He would state, however, a fact,
which had just come under his notice.—(Hear.) In the
contract which had been lately entered into with
the Government for the supply of Woolwich, meat was
70. per lb., and in the contract last year it was only
6d. per lb. Now, he would state that he never knew
anything equal to the distress which prevailed in the
country.—(Hear, hear.) It was time for them to con-
sider whether any measures could be adopted to mitigate
this distress. He thought that the duties on the impor-
tation of many articles connected with agriculture ought
to be greatly modified. The farmers wanted more seeds.
It was not long ago that he had a conversation with a
gentleman who was an ultra-protectionist, but who had
the good sense not to connect himself with any of the
protection societies, and who had paid 401 last year
for seed. Now that gentleman declared to him, that if
he could have purchased this quantity for 201, he would
have sowed double the quantity of land. He had no
hesitation, therefore, in saying that these restrictions
were one great cause of the farmers' distress. They were
fully convinced that the time was come when such re-
strictions ought to cease.—(Hear, hear.) Before ho sat
down he hoped he would be allowed to say that the
course which the Government pursued was, in his opi-
nion, the best course which they could have pursued,
under the circumstances, and he would not do his duty
to his constituents if he voted for the Noble Lord's reso-
lutions. He thought, however, that as to any finality on
this measure or on that, the idea was absurd.—(Hear.)
Yet it was impossible that any Parliament or any
Government of this country could stand by any set of
measures when they were opposed to the welfare of the
people. These views were, to a considerable extent,
entertained by all the most sensible men in the country.
—(Hear, hear.) When the Noble Lord the Member for
the City of London said that the condition of the working
man must be improved, and that he was placed in a dis-
advantageous position at the present moment, he was guilty
of exaggeration, as the mass of the population were now
better employed and at higher wages than for the last
fourteen or fifteen years. As to their knowledge, he
believed that the increasing light which was extending
throughout the land, and which was teaching senators
wisdom, would, by and bye, reach the home of the poor 1
man—that it would teach them sobriety, the best means
of conducting their domestic concerns, and the first and
best lesson, that of making them contented with their lot.
Sir J. GRAHAM said he had to offer a few words in
explanation of a return of the prices of butcher's meat,
which had been referred to on a former evening. The
return was prepared by the Board of Trade, at his re-
quest, and did not refer to the price of dried meat in the
hands of retail butchers. It was made up for six years
—from April, 11139, to April in the present year. The
return showed a decrease of the price of meat sold to
the labouring classes in this year over 1140.
Captain PECHELL said he had, never heard a more
valuable or more excellent speech, than that delivered by
the Hon. Member for Winchester. Whatever might be
their difference of opinion with respeet to the resolutions of
the Noble Lord, they must all agree that be had afforded
them much useful information. With respect to the
state of education in Sussex, he had been informed that
400 out of 870 persons, confined in Lewes gaol, were
ignorant of the existence of the Saviour. With respect
to the want of education in other counties, he could cor-
roborate the statements of the Noble Lord. He stated
that not more than a third of the prisoners confined in
Stafford gaol could read. In Devonshire, Denbigh-
shire, Essex, and other counties, great ignorance pre-
vailed. Out of 131 confined in Hereford gaol, only one
could read tolerably well. The Gallant Member referred
to the criminal returns of other gaols, to show the great
want of education among the lower classes. But when
the Noble Lord wished to show that ignorance existed
among the lower classes in Suffolk and in other counties,
he might have said that it also prevailed among the
higher classes in that and in other counties in England.
Much gross ignorance existed among a class of far
higher station than the labouring class—he meant the
" farmers' friends."—(Hear, hear.) At a dinner at
Brighton, on the 24th of January last, a Noble Lord, in
reply to the toast of " The Navy," said he was happy
to say " that the only individual connected with his pro-
fession, who was opposed to the cause that was
protection—was the Member for the borough in '
which they were assembled. He was sure they must
succeed against the Anti-Corn-law League, and he had
hoisted the flag of protection, and was ready to do battle
with that body." He (Capt. Pechell) believed that
the people of this country were not so hostile to the
Anti-Corn-law League as they had been. These words,
or others of a similar nature, had been uttered in other
places, but it was rather a remarkable circumstance that
they had not heard them in that House. They had had
divisions, and all kinds of schemes, but when they came to
the point-they were never able to bring them to a fair
stand-up fight, and they never proposed any measures
for the benefit of those whose friends they professed to
be. They did not support the assertions they made
at their: agricultural associations.—(Opposition cheers.)
He agreed with the Hon. Member for Manchester (Mr.
M. Gibson), that assertions like those to which he had
referred were frittering away. Ho (Captain Pechell)
was in favour of the resolutions of the Noble Lord, and
of the amendment of the Hon. Gentleman the Member
for Rochdale (Mr. Sharman Crawford.) With respect
to the question of the extension of the suffrage, the
Hon. Member for Manchester must know that petitions
were now lying on the table of the House, which had not
been entertained, but which must be entertained, either
by Hon. Gentlemen opposite, or by the Noble Lord the
Member for the city of London. The speech of the
Hon. Member for Carlisle, who was very delicate on
this subject, and who had shown more sensitiveness on
that debate than on others, had disappointed him. He
regretted that on the division on the questions before the
House, they should not have the support of the Hon.
Member for Winchester.

Sir JOHN WALSH believed that the speech of the
Hon. Member for Winchester (Mr. liscott) deserved all
the compliments which had been paid to it, and that it
would, no doubt, meet with approbation from the Mein
hors of the Anti-Corn-law League. The Noble Lord
said, that however various the topics involved in his reso-
lutions were—however different they might be, and
distinct from each other, yet there was one common bond
of union between them, and that they had a direct ten-
dency to promote the welfare of all classes of society.
In that he was disposed to agree with the Noble Lord,
but at the same time ho thought that it would have
been better if his resolutions—wide and comprehensive
as they were—had contained only subjects which had a
reference to the welfare of the labouring classes. If his
intention, in bringing them forward, had been for the
purpose of stating his own views on this question, he
certainly should have felt, and every Member on that
side of the House would have felt, however much they
might differ from him in their political opinions, most
willing to attend to everything that fell from his au
thority with respect to it. He must say, however, that
it appeared to him, that the introduction of so many
different topics into one discussion, could not fail to
distract the attention of the House, and render the
discussion desultory and inconclusive. The attention of
Hon. Members was apt to turn to some particular topic
which related to party, to the exclusion of others which
the Noble Lord had united with them, He agreed with
one of the resolutions propounded by the Noble Lord,
and in the opinions with which he introduced it to the
House. He alluded to the question of colonization. He
was glad to hear the opinions which the Noble Lord ex-
pressed on that subject, more particularly when he con-
sidered the great influence which he possessed in
that House • but at the same time ho regretted that
the Noble Lord had not earlier given his attention
to It. When he held the office of Secretary to
the Colonies, he might have given a great im-
petus to an enlarged system of colonization.
He (Sir J. Walsh) thought that it was in the power of
her Majesty's Government to devise a practical measure
which might have a tendency to effect the object of the
resolution—of relieving the redundant labour in the
agricultural districts by a well-conducted scheme of
emigration. It was particularly with reference to this
subject that be wished to call the attention of her Ma-
jesty's Government. One of the principal objects which
prevented the carrying out of such a scheme in a full and
effective manner was, the great difficulty of providing
for emigrants on their first lending in a colony, of find-
iog them employment, and of placing them in a position
in which their labour might be rendered available, and
under circumstances in which the protection of the Go-
vernment might be afforded to them. Much in this
respect he thought might he done to render emigration
to the colonies advantageous to the people of this country.
The only question, in fact, was that of the eorn.laws.
But, with respect to this, what was the state of the case?
Why, that the improvements which had been made in
England in the practice of agriculture were greater
than that which had been made in any other country in
the world. The whole of these improvements had been
madeduring the last half century. During that period
me
t re
l 4
France,elsfa san
ftl h
e 1
attempts had been made to overcome
the diffieulties of climate and soil than in any other
believednst r a tii
to nw ofe thisldbe
aposition,ew ed he
he
a were
theere
to country.ak e
soil and climate of France were far more favourable
for the procluctiol} that} Bnglitudt 4114 yet

TNE SUN, LONDON, THURSDAY EVENING, MAY 29, 1845.

the comparative state of cultivation in France was as per-
fect ignorance with that of England. He believed that
the introduction of the improved system in England was
not anterior to the year 1791, and all the great altera-
tions had taken place since them. This was the case
with the Norfolk system, and with the system pursued
in Lincolnshire and the Lothians. He did not like any
of those resolutions, which made the interest of the
labouring classes appear different from their own. It
was not the case; and in the declaration of such a prin-
ciple he thought they were arming Mr. O'Connell with
tenfold power, and they were only increasing their diffi-
culties, while, on the contrary, if they were to pursue the
right course, he was assured that the Irish peasant would
soon care little for Maynooth ; but would be led to con-
skier and value the means by which the welfare of his
, family and himself was to be promoted.
Lord HO WICK said that there was one part of the
speech of the Right Hon. Baronet who had just sat
down, which he wished had been addressed to the House
in a former debate—he meant that part of the speech in
which the Right Hon. Baronet stated that the system of
protection to agriculture had been instrumental rather
in the improvement than the retarding of agriculture.
lie did think, that if the Right Hon. Baronet had lis-
tened to the arguments advanced in introducing the
motion of the Hon. Member for Stockport (Mr. Cobden)
for an inquiry into the state of the farmer and the far-
mer's labourer,with a view to suggest some means for their
improvement, that he would not that night have come down
to the House with the observations which he had now
> addressed to it. If he had listened to that speech,
which he was bowel to say was replete with informa-
tion and sound reasoning, he would have come to the
conclusion that protection had checked and retarded
the spirit of agricultural improvements. If such were
not the case, how was it that in this department of na-
tional industry there had been no improvement during
the long peace with which we had been so happily
blessed? He thought that that speech had fully demon-
strated to the House that it had been checked and re-
tarded, and the reasons adduced had in his mind been
decisive of the question. Yet the Hon. Baronet had
neither met the arguments nor assisted them in obtain-
ing the Committee. But what did the Honourable
Baronet say on the subject as to the extent of
the improvement. All he could say was that
there had been improvement. They should decide that
there had been improvement ; but would any one who
had heard the arguments advanced in that debate venture
to say that that improvement was the consequence of
protective laws. But it was not his object to press the
arguments of the Honourable Baronet into discussion,
but his object was rather to make some general remarks
to the House on the general tendency of the general
object of his Noble Friend's motion. The way in which
the motion had been met on the part of the Government
appeared to him most extraordinary. The only speech
indeed from that side of the House had been made by
the Right Honourable Baronet the Secretary for the
Home Department. When a Member of the Govern-
ment rose he fully expected that he would pro-
pose one of two courses. Either that he would
have met the arguments or would have attempted
to deny the situation of the labouring classes. This was
one line ; the other was an admission of the condition
of the labouring classes, and all the evils which were
consequent upon it; but, however much it might be
desired, yet Parliament was unable to prevent them.
But neither of these two courses had been taken, and he
therefore thought the attempt to bring them before the
House by these resolutions was not a vain one, and this
he thought was a sufficient answer to several of the
arguments of the Hon. Baronet who had just sat down.
But how did the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary for
the Home Department meet the arguments of his Noble
Friend ? He did not attempt to meet the argument
at all, but he came down to the House and made a
speech, in which he told the House that he should meet
his Noble Friend by moving the previous question.
There was no doubt but that the situation of the labour-
ing classes was in the extreme unsatisfactory, and yet he
refused to bring it under the consideration of the House.
The Right Hon. Baronet had stated that it was the duty
of the House to consider the interests of all classes of
the community, but he (Lord Howick) thought it was
especially their duty to take care of the interests of the
labouring community. This, he believed, it was in their
power to do; and it was the duty of the Legislature to
devise such measures as would improve the condition of
those classes who were least able to help themselves;
and he thought that the object of the Govern-
ment would have been to meet the whole of the
difficulty laid before them, and not to obviate all
inquiry by moving the previous question.—(Hear.)
This was the way in which the Right Hon. Baronet met
the question—(Hear, hear.) He said he would neither
affirm nor deny that measures were required for the im-
provement of the labouring classes which it was in the
power of Parliament to adopt. He (Lord Howick) would
say that was a mode of meeting the question which, if
the House coincided in, would sufficiently evidence that
it shrunk from its duty—(Hear, hear). He could un-
derstand that the Right Hon. Baronet might either deny
that such misery really existed, or that, granting that it
did, he might propose an amendment, calling on the
House to say that it was impossible that by any change
in the law they could relieve the distress which was so
universally prevalent. He (Lord Howick) could
understand a Minister of the House taking either
of these courses, but he was quite at a loss to understand
how a Minister could propose, or the House coincide,
in saying that this subject was unfitted for the conside-
ration of Parliament.—(Hear, hear.) If he could rightly
understand the object of the Noble Lord who had in-
troduced these resolutions, it was to call en the House,
first of all, to recognise the fact that the condition of the
labouring classes of this country was far from satisfac-
tory—one in which something might be done for their
improvement and welfare ; and, next, to point out
what wore the principles on which those measures he
would recommend for their relief, should be based.
Having laid down these principles, he (Lord
Howick) further understood the Noble Lord's
views to be, that this question was so large
and so important that it ought to bet left with the
advisers of the Crown to embody and propose to the
House measures in accordance with his principles. That
appeared to him the proper and Parliamentary mode, and
he confessed that he did not understand the ground on
which the Hon. Baronet who spoke last (Sir John
Walsh) found fault with the resolutions, as calculated to
establish a difference between the labouring and other
classes. He (Lord Howick) did not so read them. He
did not understand the Noble Lord to argue that mea-
sures should be passed benefiting the labouring classes
at the expense of others. What he understood from the
speech of his Noble Friend was, that the adoption of mea-
sures, founded on those principtes,would not only be bene-
ficial to the whole nation, but to every class in the commu
nity. He understood, indeed, that his propositions es-
pecially referred to the labouring classes, as their condi-
tion at that moment was one peculiarly requiring the in-
terference of the House. Now, if he were right in his
construction of these resolutions, he thought it followed
that they on that (the Opposition) side of the House
were entitled to expect:tlie support of every Hon. Mem-
ber who agreed in thinking that if the condition of the
labouring classes were such as required the adoption of
some means or other of improvement, whether they were
agreed or not as to what that improvement might be,
because if they differed as to the means to
be adopted for this object, they might do so in a
subsequent stage, by moving an amendment when the
actual measures were brought under the consideration of
the House. But this he did think, that there was some-
thing amiss in the present social system that required
amending ; and he was of opinion, that those who
entertained those views, however widely they might
differ from them on other subjects, were bound to concur
in the adoption of the Noble Lord's first resolution.—
(Hear, hear.) He could not help feeling somewhat
disappointed, in seeing that the attendance in the House
was not better than it was. (There were about forty
Members present)—and, above all, he was greatly disap-
pointed in not seeing in his place the Noble Lord the
Member for Dorsetshire, and other gentlemen who had
concurred with him in bringing at various times, under the
consideration of the House, the condition of some portion
of the population of the country. That Noble Lord
had devoted much of his time and attention—and in a
manner highly praiseworthy—to the bringing before the
House the condition of the women in mines, of the chil-
dren in factories, and of other branches of the labouring
population ; and therefore he (Lord Howick) confessed
that he was very greatly disappointed that that Noble
Lord was not present to support them in proposing some
means for relieving the distresses—not of a particular
motion, but of the people generally, especially as all those
grievances, and all those sufferings did not arise from
any p articular local cause, but were symptomatic of a
general evil, which lay at the bottom of the whole case
—namely, the inability of the working classes of this
country to obtain a fair remuneration for their labour—
an inability to command a market sufficiently certain.
All these distresses, all these grievances, arose from this
one soiree; and the attempts made in various ways to get over
the difficulties which the population were labouring under, but
added to the existing evil.—( Hear, hear.) When, therefore,
this proposition of the Noble Lord was one not tending to dam
up the channels of industry, but to open still more the triunes
from which prosperity flowed, he did feel disappointed at the
absence of the Noble Lord, the Member for Dorsetshire, be-
cause, had the Noble Lord been in the House, he (Lord
Howick) had so mush confidence in the sincerity of his inten-
tions, in the honesty of his motives, and in his fervent desire
for the welfare of the poorer classes of his fellow-countrymen,
that he was sure that if they could have shown to him that by
the adoption of the principle on which these resolutions ware
founded the welfare of the poorer classes could be promotei, he
was sure that that Noble Lord would have supported them
whatever might have been his previous opinion, or however
opposed these resolutions might be to his former policy or to
the opinions of the party with which he was politically con-
nected.—( Hear, hear. ) He (Lord Howick) had already said
that the objects of this motion were just to call on the House
to recognise the existence of a state of things in which the
interference of the House was necessary in behalf of the working
classes, and he had also expressed his opinion that
be thought they were entitled to expect the
support of all those who did not consider the present
condition of the working classes as satisfactory, unless, indeed,
they also thought that no legislative enactment could assist to
remove them. Now he would ask if, in the speech of the
Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary for the Home Department,
he had said one word which was calculated to lead to the con-
clusion either that the present condition of the working classes
was in any way satisfactory, or that it would not be in the
power of Parliament to remedy it? That the condition of the
working classes was far from satisfactory he was willing to take
on the evidence of the Right Hon. Baronet himself. He said
that the Noble Lord rightly stated the wages of the labourer
in the agricultural districts of England. He believed per-
fectly well that if throughout the whole nation they
took the average rate of wages, the statement of
his Nohle Friend might perhaps be too low, but
in very many of the counties of England they had the strongest
proofs that the statements of the Noble Lord were correct. If
they looked at Wilts, Dorsetshire, and Sussex ; parts of
North Devon, and other counties in the south and west of
England, the rate of wages would be found to be miserably
low, He would ask the Right Honourable Baronet whether
the wages in these counties could be considered satisfactory—
whether they were not such as necessarily to entail great
suffering and great privations on those by
whom they were
received ? (Hear, WO The Right liouourabig Darolgte

had referred to the improvements in the manufacturing dis-
tricts. He (Lord Howick) was happy to believe that such
I improvements had an existence, but he would ask the Right
Honourable Baronet, if he himself had not, two years ago, al-
luded to the sufferings which prevailed in the manufacturing
districts? He (Lord Howick) had, in 18-13, brought the sub •
jest before the House, and at that time it was not dis-
puted that throughout the whole manufacturing districts
of England and Scotland misery and distress prevailed to a
most alarmiug extent. It had lasted for three or four
years, and it had then risen to its height. The description
of things as then existing was absolutely heart-rending. The
Right Hon. Baronet in describing the improvement which had
now taken place, himself went back to that former state of
things, and pointed out how fearful was that distress, Bat,
he would ask, what was the inference to be drawn from that
very fact ? Why, that the manufacturing labourers, if they
took his average earnings, was not greatly superior in condi-
tion to the agricultural labourer. No doubt at this moment
they were blessed with prosperity. But how was that? Be.
cause they had had good harvests, because they had low prices
for food, and because those low prices enabled the population
to consume bread, sugar, and tea, and that had itself assisted
in producing a flourishing state of trade. For this reason,
therefore, their manufacturing districts were at that moment in
a comparative state of ease. But was that to continue perms.
nent ? Was that state of things to be depended on ? Did
they feel convinced that two bad harvests would not occur in
'accession to change their present commercial prosperity ? Was
it not better, then, to take advantage of this short interval of
prosperity, so as to deliberate calmly on those measures which
they might think best calculated te ensure a permanent im-
provement in the condition of the working classes? They
might n see search this matter clearly and fully, and without
any undue influence being exercised to bias their delibera-
tions: but if this state of things should change—if, by a sue-
eeeston of bad harvests the pressure of misery and distress
should again be felt in the manufacturing districts, paralysing all
their energies, he would ask them whether they could, in such
a case, so advantageously and satisfactorily, he would say, and
safely, discuss the great question as to the causes
on which the prosperity of the working classes depended?
But it was obvious to every man, and simply because they could
not depend upon the continuance of this prosperity, that it did
no good, if it did not do injury to the agriculturist. It was
perfectly clear, that the great demand for labour which now
existed in the manufacturing districts, could not he looked on
as a permanency, and the labourers of the agricultural dis-
tricts could not conceal from themselves that a recurrence
might ere long take place, of that distress and suffering which
had formerly prevailed, and which had succeeded to a previous
period of prosperity.—( Hear, hear.) With an anticipated
recurrence of these things before their eyes, the present
great demand for labour in the manufacturing districts
had a tendency to remove some of the difficulties which
pressed upon the agricultural portion of the community. Fiir
were it not that the present state of things could not be de-
pended upon they would have large bodies of the labourers of
Dorsetshire and Buckinghamshire flocking to Manchester and
Liverpool. But although the present condition of the manu-
facturing labourer was greatly superior to that of the agricul-
tural labourer, he believed, upon an average of years—take
for instance two years together—they would find that there
was hardly any, or at all events no material distinction
between the two; and the question was one which
ought to be considered, and, if it were possible to improve
it, it was their duty to adopt measures aiming at that improve-
ment, arid the only question was whether that improvement
was in their power, because the course for them to consider
was whether they ought to adopt these resolutions or not. Now
the taking of such a step depended simply upon the considera-
tion of whether it was practicable for Parliament to do any
thing for !improving the condition of the working
classes generally.—(Hear.) Now, in coming to this question,
he could not help observing that very many unfounded objec-
tions had been made to the resolutions. One of those objec-
tions was, that they opened so wide a field and extended so
far. Now he thought, when his Noble Friend was bringing
before their attention the necessity for doing something for the
benefit of the labouring classes, it was his business to point out
not only the details. but in general terms the principles of the
different measures which he thought ought to be adopted for
their benefit. And he (Lord Howick) thought it more impor-
tant that the Noble Lord should do this, because he entirely
agreed in the opinion expressed on a former evening by his
Right Hon. Friend the Member for Taunton, that these reso-
lutions were no less important from what they include, than
what they exclude.--( Hear.) They all know that there was
at this moment a very general feeling amongst large
masses of the community, that the time had arrived when some-
thing ought to be done for the welfare and improvement of the
working classes.—(Hear, hear.) There was amongst the
community at large a most praiseworthy and a most honest—
but he was afraid, in many cases, not a very well regulated—
desire for doing something for the benefit of the working
classes. The measures which had been brought forward or
suggested by some of those who entertained this feeling, would,
in his opinion, only add to the distress which they meant to
correct.—( Hear, hear.) It was, therefore, of great import-
ance that his Noble Friend, in bringing these resolutions be-
fora the House, had, in point of fact, shown them what were
the limits and powers of Parliament in taking steps for the im-
provement of the working classes. It was important that there
resolutions should point out to them how far they could go,
and what they could not do for the benefit of the working
classes. But of the different classes of evils which his Noble
Friend had pointed out in the resolutions, there were two of
them which were most closely and most intimately connected
together. Ile people of this country, at this moment, were
suffering both from evils arising from ignorance, which all the
efforts which Parliament had yet taken had only partially suc-
ceeded in dispelling, and also from the physical evils arising out
of poverty; and in his opinion these two evils were very
closely connected together, Poverty often resulted from
ignorance, and poverty and ignorance together naturally cor-
rupted the minds of some of the rising generation. They all
knew that those who had the advantages of a good education,
and whose minds were endowed with sound principles and
useful knowledge, had seldom any difficulty in obtaining em-
ployment at a tolerably fair remuneration.—(llear, hear.)
['heir intelligence rendered their services so much more
valuable, and hence they commanded in the market a fair, and
in some instances, a liberal remuneration ; and therefore it was
he said, that ignorance was one cause of poverty,but on the ether
hand, it was no less certain that poverty was one cause of ig-
norance. His Noble Friend had correctly psinted out that it
was quite impossible for a population suffering under the 1 res-
sure of great physical distresses to endeavour to obtain the
blessings of education. How was it possible for a labouring
man residing in acottage in Dorsetshire, and earning 7s. per
week, to pay a higg rent for his cottage, a high price for his
fuel, and feed and clothe his wife and children, to give his chil-
dren any education at all ?—( Hear, hear.) No ;it was totally
impossible ; and the consequence was the rising generation of
Dorset and other districts were brought up in such a way
as to enable them to supply their animal or immediate
wants. It was clear, therefore, to him, that these two evils
were closely connected, and his Noble Friend had done well in
pointing out, in one of the resolutions which he had laid on the
table, that one important means for improving the condition of
the labouring population was to be found in education.—
( Hear, hear.) They must combine with those measures
which might be hit upon for raising the physical condition of
the people, other measures for dispelling that ignorance which
at present prevailed amongst large portions of the working
classes.—( Hear, hear.) His Noble Friend, in his resolutions,
had pointed out generally what were the means which he would
propose to be adopted in both cases, but he (Lord
Howick) thought they were all agreed as to the necessity fur
and importance of education, and he should, therefore, confine
his remarks to the SCCORII measure. His Noble Friend had
pointed out the means to be adopted—which he thought ought
to be adopted—for improving the physical condition of the
people and mitigating the sufferings they occasionally had to
encounter. Now, it was most true that neither Government
nor Parliament could effectually regulate the wages of the la-
bourer by legislative enactments. Experience taught them
that it was out of the power of Parliament to adopt measures
for that purpose. Indeed, any attempt of that kind hitherto
only tended to aggravate, instead of remove the evil, but hie
Noble Friend did not propose any such mischievous mea-
sure as this. What he proposed was simply to release the
labourer from the restrictions which were at present placed
upon his industry. Their argument was, that the restrictions
imposed upon the freedom of industry were the direct cause of
the present sufferings of the working classes, and all that was
required of Government was to remove these restrictions, and
leave the labouring man free to make the most of his own
labour in his own way. If they did that, the known perse-
verance and honest industry of the English labourer would
always secure to him a comfortable subsistence.—( Hear. )
Let hire remind the House of the great distinction between a
society in a state of civilisation and a sooiety in a state of bar-
barism. And what was it produced this great distinction ?
It was, he believed, mainly the comparative efficiency of labour
in civilised nations which produced that amount of wealth and
capital which enabled them to go on employing more labourers.
—( Hear, hear. ) He was ashamed to go bask to mere ele-
mentary propositions. But because they were overlooked in
that House, or their vast importance underrated (Cheers)
—he was induced to trouble the House by referring to
them.—( Hear.) It was the free interchange of labour ren-
dered practicable by the absence of laws of restriction which
enabled the division of labour to be fully carried out.—( Hear. )
It was the want of that free interchange of the products of
labour which caused the low state of the industrious classes in
those countries where commerce was restricted.—( Cheers.)
By one man's applying himself to a particular occupation, more
was produced for himself and more for the community
of which he was a member, than if he could
not rely upon a certain supply of food for the exchange
of his own productions.--( Hear, hear.) It was by the industry
of one country producing what another wants, that commerce
made men rich and happy. It was by that beautiful machinery
of Providence, that various nations were mutually blessed
through the industry of each other.—( Cheers. ) It followed
then, that when you interfered with the exchange of produc-
tions—when you prevented corn being sent to countries which
could produce clothes more easily, you interfered with one of
the greatest blessings of Providence.—(Cheers.) That doc-
trine was as old as Adam Smith.—( Cheers and laughter.)
But it was as clear as arithmetic.--( Cheers.) It was there.
fore a necessary and inevitable consequence that the whole sys-
tem of protection was calculated to lower and degrade not only
the working classes, but all classes of the community in'the
country which adopted that system. —( Hear, hear. ) But
amongst all other systems of protection, he saw none so mis-
chievous as that which, in a densely peopled country, refused
to admit the introduction of foreign food, is exchange
for the products of domestic labour—(Cheers). That system
was so monstrous and indefensible, and still so stoutly main-
tained that it could not be too often discussed in that House—
( Cheers). But the discussion would be best brought before
the House on the motion of his Hon. Friend the Member for
Wolverhampton respecting the Corn Laws—( Hear, hear ). At
present he wished to confine himself to the effect of those re-
strictive laws upon the condition of the working classes of
this country ; which would be best understood by comparing
it with that of the working classes in these countries in which
food was more easily obtained—as in the United States and in
our own province of Canada—(Hear, hear.) This had been
often pointed out, and no answer had been made. lie must
now content himself by allowing that no answer was possible
—( Hear, hear). He asked the Right lion. Baronet at the
head of the Government for a plain and direct answer—( Cries
of " Hear, hear"). How was it that the English peasant,
when he emigrated to Canada, the United Sates, or
South Australia, found that he could obtain the
necessaries, and even the luxuries of life, to an extent of which
he knew nothing at home ?—( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon.
Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department
had told the House that there had been a large emigration of
labourers to Canada, and that the emigrants were all well off.
Now, he wanted to know how it happened that all those men
who had been so badly off at home, were so well off in another
country ?—( Hear, hear.) It was not because they were mere
industrious than at home, for no one had ever found fault with
their industry at home.—( Hear, hear.) At home they had
had all the vast resources of this great country, in capital and
machinery, to render their labour productive.—( Hear, hear. )
The cause could not be that they were less taxed in Canada or
in the United States, for it was demonstrable that, in propor-
tion to its wealth, this country was the most lightly taxed in
the world. (Cheers, and cries of " Oh, oh.") It
was undeniable that the amount of land which
lay open to them to cultivate, was the great
cause of their improved condition ; and to render
their condition at home equally comfortable and in-
dependent, it was only necessary to throw open to them, for
the exchange of the products of their labour, those wide lands
of the earth, where food was abundant, and the peculiar pro-
ducts of their own industry most needed. These countries
could all produce corn much cheaper and in much greater
abundance than they required. Australia could very well send

to the
Lord had omitted to state nix opinion as _
au to.
operation of a fixed duty in a time of scarcity• u
the Noble Lord had said nothing
prolific season to levy such a duty would be Impelli.hijecm; yet
the executive authority remittina the duty on corn under
te
lush
circumstances. The Noble Cord had omitted to ari,hse aro
,pinion on this question the previous evening•
resolution referred to the political tranquillity and conot.ll ,he
prosperity of the country. It could not be denied
thont r•f a
partyof making a pro'
js..„
Noble Lard (Lord John Russell,) had divested his Ina °the
resolutions implied distrust and avant of confident:am/84"in;
Majesty's Ministers.—( near.) On this subject it r
of the
character. yet still co one could fail seeing 01 her
the House to determine if improving the taaatire, to pay
oountry—imposing taxes on thetas who could affey
of to
them—releasina indestry, and relieving the diScaltlie,hu Gee
country—if those" were to be taken as reasons why then
thee
yernment was not entitled to the confidence of the country gt,
was the Noble Lord correct in the position he had ta
nuo, the
referred to the improved comforts and social conditiohe
re!,
people—to the removal of embargoes on trailc—t° t raercial
sion and improvement of the laws upon which °That the/
transactions depend ; to all these he referred as evidence
_, had
(the Government) had not been remiss in their dutyien"atty,
done that which entitled them to the confidence of the
uestisa
Ile could not think that the habitual discussion of this q uf the
did any gooel.—( Hear, hear.) lie thought the subjeftmatioa
corn-laws could be much more efficiently discussed by °mow
specifically introduced, as by the Hon. Member ara
ham ton, than in the manner adopted by the fr'l°,bieuf"th°lo
the Member far London. According to the thatstatemens ass
Hon. Member for Essex he was led to understand her
agricultural interest had withdrawn their confidence regret
Majesty's Government. To this he could only ear° ir env
that they should have seen reason to withdraw the
01,00
fidence, but he would nevertheless consider it histh dutY !earliest, of
what he considered best calculated to serve e
niint
rit ea'
the country, as he believed the policy of the Governe
ecoaatri
duced to the general good. If they contrasted
_surd not
as it was in 1841, with what it was at present, it,.% dace.
but be admitted that a great improvement had talrliita,, he
With respect to the changes that had taken place in t 0(00'
believed that so far as they had not increased the price lie,
they had had a beneficial effect. The welfare Of thorn routriaatt
tors of land did not dend upon the sum which oded
bring in the market.—(Hear, hear.) He asked tuvaatine.
proprietors whether the returns from corn the circeil;counts
which determined their welfare. If he looked upon thittag fro
which were given of the state of the country as rest'
that
the
the high prices of corn, he was perfectly satisfleo446.
landed interact would not be benefited by such a
gate FoLit the
(The Right Hon. Gentleman then read extracts of
communications of a General commanding in the Or the ststet
land to the Secretary far the Home Department, sneutotrY A
of the country in May, 1841, and the state of the
,0,1 ogre:
present, from which it appeared that the former Pe.ril fer
most disturbed one, and the latter was so tranclai, oter„
taken in a question which had recently
from political agitation, that there was no intereistorhed rir;
public mind—namely, the Maynooth question.) the s lea
tiaued the Right HOL Gentleman), depend upon it,..„„ai
of things in 1842 could not have continued( I. Pied
of " Hear, hear.*') The Honourable Meraberd for
blia
had said that be had been disappointed, anle,e,they
withdrawn his confidence from her Majesty's urLartit ala-
-60 much dstoit, ceeiv
consequence of the course which they had pursue° d his °°":
had not gained his confidence—if they had forfeite ,th abl
dence in consequence of the rapidity—(A bePed
they had proceeded in those changes, he most certtrille
that he would proceed, if not in accordance with,at afea,c'a
the Opposition, at least in a common expression er,”coevia',44
fidence in them.—( Hear, hear.) He was perfecl the/
under any circumstances, that the principles on wlibicraostl' to
proceeded were sound ; but he thought it most ju'a'tay, he,toit
and most prudent not to proceed too rashly and ba- the -
take that cautious and deliberate course which I°looo
certain to secure the permanent prosperity of tahfared.),,,er
The Right Hon. Gentleman sat down loudly eh arid -00
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, that as a'before
pied so much of their time on the questictations °dia.
House, he would very briefly refer to the °be' aaerse
had been made by Honourable Members in thea-teaf I,,cheites
debate. When he had such testimonials of the alive sdf[thei
dustrious classes from day to day—when he fours alas," • idled
of the corn-laws ceasing from using argurnenl (01'1;10
had been in the habit of using, and these 0",, 0114 Os!
force—it WAS obvious that th time must se,ei'eoosi.an'aarre°
restriction would cease, when Parliament wernate be :tar thee
a duty of 40s, or 50s. per cent., ought no loageirfe sn,autepair
as injurious to the farmer and the labourer. bated 00P"'0.11
to state this to the House--theg were in 0 ft-draisa,,ttet .
five prosperity—the people in the north were -re --ale
e.
tical disturbance—their labourers generally co' ,o%g'
than when food was high. Parliament, thereforea hest
.e teas
Into without any suspicion as to its motives. Oa oathet'bu area
the circumstances before it, to come to a deeisie at he tloa9e
portant matters.—( Hear, hear.) Whatever etigto the felt
sult of the resolutions which he had subraittedot the: bad
that night, the great question would remain,' re Was iersra
convinced that in a time of distress, when taei not tal 130
harvest, and corn was high in price, they can't „asset' saoo
the present torn-laws exactly as they were at alit Part;
if the Government were to propose that 014 tbst'
in the corn-laws, no one would pretend to say oessr tot
in that House would be capable of resisting alai men to g, the
this would be the case, and he called on them
, „,,„:deredtrle,te,
such a concession—he appealed to those who aaai the Pe ir
present law increased the price of the Was The re'
make such a concession as the one pointed er_ent lisa re.
Honourable Baronet at the head of the Gove nu'it34l, anoutee
ferred to the changes which had taken place sineee _dohs
'of
He (Ler $
infereraesdurteos twhheicchirctuhmesGtaonvceernasmeifotithwaderteaknenn.i
Russell) considered those changes had bee caused'Aerial afterati
made m • Goric'ej
seasons—( Hear, hear)—and that
ht by an unwise
the argument. If they were broils
and he measures had !Prod; of
anent into a bad state, ant- t such an unespeeted sto_,
prosperity, they might expect that
But if from °wol
things might continue without check.
taken pisee_ 0
time they had seen the alterations which fl .oporterair
r if
by chsilog, is
the country and to its property would occur.
,a the au,
Edward Knatchbull brought forward a motion ni, areif'te
could not but expect that alterations of vast: in ral..ffeat
that distress was not partial but general, in which' ° hoe
ported by a number of Members on the cabe veto ado
House. In Iti3ti a debate ensued on topics analog sere tet3i,st
involved in that debate, in which admission' diell'ala
similar to those heard in the course of that disedit; the e'rt
the great prosperity in the various branches Of fra veal sisal
cotton, and other branches of manufacture Sier... u
by iniudes
increased in quantity and exportation, an dial of ae.gaii
consumption, and yet in 1837 there was a vast f corn
and dangerous speculation. In 1838 the pricyou to 01,
to rise to a price that was seriously m1)11;07 arafe.o4
bourer, which continued for the years 1839, is-_na se,efe'
when there was a continuance of bad harvests, sea
and distress amongst the people. He would askasis oss toter
rence to one Government or to another, if •t"to er the
aufficient indication that they might have agar°, (mania fool
similar seasons of distress to 'that which existeee, gaol 00
years? He really wished to put it to the Houtica hejerid:
all other consislertions—as a question an la now Jed
thoroughly convinced himself—whether they W0u..„0,41,:,
what measures they thought best--whether they - shekel)
that if alterations were to be made, theltua..V.;Fai
made in this time of comparative prnsPeriaa that iia.s°
A Noble Lord had said in the course of the deb arsertu (she or
tection were carried a little further, it Was sure reset
that an alteration of the corn-laws would in mac} ora le
most beneficial to the farmer. This was bat
feet agreement with the public interest. 13'1,-,t „taeroraeltett
Gentleman had raised another question- The "-e bad Ptreoti°
no objection to part of the resolutions which _ this
and even they seemed to think that legislation 0" dereo
might be held on a part of it.
tu
t
Sir R. PEEL—That could only be obtained by 0
the
to the Crown. a tee° Ot for
Lord J. RUSSELL had no objection areit wsl .011
course that was to be pursued. But it clear 'colas! ht ,
duty of the Ministers of the Crown to legislate 600 pligke bt
any class. He thought that the same °bi filett; erg
raised by the amendment of his Hon. Friend the Thot
Wolverhampton to the purpose of the Committee. had sir
Hon. Gentleman said another of his rascalcolleague' th:,
confidence of the Hon. Baronet the Member fea, tb !fel
Tyrrell), and he thought while stating tet-therarieetee,ll
should also recollect what was just t?th a
that the Ministers had come into power oat. . 00°01
the ground of which they had never carriedd the erard
who thought with him would say the tariff, an •th theceltsof
tion of tallow and cattle, had not so interfered Y',ibiaarlarti"la
prosperity as to militate against the interests et t` this ted fe
classes. The small importation of cattle in °0 streedd'iel
from abroad could not in any great degree hott, Canshoderree
markets, nor could the introduction of core 111) hive to 011oa,
greatly injured the interests of the farmers or,weedoistitaf
the general prosperity. He could not be Pre-aeat 'alotiair
with all the principles of the measures a the ref pc rael
but certainly he thought that the farmers 'I ofgoa,
reason to complain of the measures of the Riga,aooLbt 0 or
net. He did not mean to complain of the,, ,'"he Pirei,e oQs
Right Hon. Baronet; but the speeches as the ae,
Gentleman in 1840 and 1841 had certainly. le", leo l'abo,„fate°
the country to expect measures based on princrrthoaa sovrhal
posed to those en which he had always acted
ci heei het,
repeated, he believed the measures which he I aot
were useful and not injurious. At the electioe:oat ,11
begun a series of measures which would eetrtall „tal tbloha
obtained for him the confidence he anPasclPLird'atit
The lion. Member for Essex had expresslY he (`'„eafrtasr
( Hear, hear.) It was not to be expected th,atoern'-orrif
Russell,) could give his confidence to the 'of $ 100% of
however anxious he might be as a member -et hrtati,
he
party to reduce the influence of the Ministry, tri,rhi%
that he would rather support them tllatiod ' u flee oar
the Hon. Baronet the member for Essex; --had
was opposed to their general policy, if he w'leferee'''
measures carried, he should feel obliged, in Pr di'
port the Ministry now in power.
The Noble Lord sat down amid lend cheers' f 0 Ph` ,t 9°,10,
Lord CLENIENTS rose amid loud cries, %id
_,olutraaty
vide," "Go on," " Order," &c. He coml"s1 the '"
lusion whatever had been made to Ireland ai,flean°s,t plaot ter
—(" Oh, oh," " Divide, divide.") It align" OM" crl,
gined that a repeal of the union had alread4ohie 1.0
(Cries of " Oh, oh," and laughter.) Tile
in vain attempting to be heard sat down- aretl--- 33
The House then divided, when there app e •a 3 „fl
For the amendment ........................... •
Against it ..................... ............ ••' ben .Mete
Majority against the amendment •-tia'a,
The House again divided on the original Ine
appeared— 104
For the resolutions ................. lfag /5 „r
Against them ............................... ' oet°ll,
Majority against the resolutions •••
a to sag
ea
Mr. HENDLEY called upon the Speak ea bets‘cod t
Members were to be excluded from the ne:soo he e off/ee
sions upon two separate motions. The re. by th
question was, because he was refused admit" ore'
of the House on the first division. afen'ar
Sir E. FILNIER concurred: with the totaladea. ,
vders
site, as he was one of those who had been exa_d eateabutad ,‘,,
°
The SPEAKER said that the officers n'
Member ~
misapprehension of their duties, for Hon' oacts•
admitted upon each division. to T'gt:'
The House then adjourned at a Quarter
_ a,
Nor
On the ISth ir'st., at Morwick House, - )Ir6•
lade of Hour.; Mayhew, Esq., of a dauglis
oyster,
On the,l3J).
BIRTH 8. ti umberls9
19(11 rust., at Newton-road, )
the
Chsaa,tl, of a son. af
0 Sitive,
Peter Koch, lasq., of a son. tee •
• ce, liiscoan
On the 26th inst., in Eatort-pla
On the Ist inst., at Frankfort-on-
a daughter.
the

' corn to this country. They never even had referred to the
agricultural produce of America. If they only allowed corn to
come from Australia without coming under the Canadian duty,
they would, indirectly, by that reception bestow a great benefit
upon both countries. They should exchange with other
countries,by which their feud and the wants of the people might
be furnished. He would call the Right Hon. Baronet oppo-
site as a witness of the advantage of low prices, fur he
had lately told them what the Ministry had done for them.
Ile had told them that as food had guile down In prices, and as
wages had he:teased, that chime had diminished and education
had extended itself. That was this account of the Right lion.
Baronet opposite, who stated that the supply of food was great,
and the price of food was low. These advantages were
dependent only on the barometer; but they should not depend
alone on the tenor of the weather, but also upon the good will
of the nation and the continaance of industry. By the adop-
tion of those principles vindicated in his Noble Friend's reso-
lutions, not only would great advantages be conferred on the
labouring classes, but those advantages would be carried to
their greatest height. The present state of the law, as it
affected prices of agricultural produce, could nut be upheld ;
for if it were, it would be impossible that there could be any
continued demand for labour. The more he persevered in
following this subject into its minute details, the more
the stronger he found his argument fortified, namely, that the
lower thy prices of feed, the greater the abundance, as well
as the advantages to be derived to the country from such a
state of things. It was quite clear that a state of the law which
would enable the poor to supply themselves with a cheaper and
more abundant supply of food and clothing than they now could
do, the better would it be for all classes of the community, be-
cause it would cause an increased demand, net only for the ma-
nufactures of this ceuntry, but also for imported articles.—
( Hear hear.) If the Government permitted a free trade in
corn, ;hat led necessarily to cause a further increase in the re-
venue of the manufacturers, and then again that would,
in its turn, lead to a greater consumption of agricultural
produce.—( Hear, hear, hear.) It was quite clear
that there could be no greater blessing to the
country than abundance and cheapness, while, on the
other hand, nothing could be more deplorable than
scarcity and high prices.—( Hear, hear.) They knew, from
what they had heard in that House that evening, that the agri-
cultural classes had not hitherto participated in the advantages
of a good harvest.—( Hear, hear. )—And, until the prices of
agricultural produce should be reduced to their proper level,
the farmers of this country would find it difficult to meet their
engagements.—( Hear, hear.) W hat did the present state of
things augur but this, that the present supply was not com-
mensurate to the demand.—( Hear.) Whereas, if the Govern-
ment did but increase the facilities of produce, there could be
no doubt. that the prosperity of the farmer would be increased.
These were the views he entertained on this subject, and,
holding them, he could not but support the resolutions of his
Noble Friend, for he regarded them, beyond all doubt, as
tending towards the prosperity of the farmer, and the pro-
motion of the happiness of the working classes, of this country.
—( Hear, hear.) But he should confess he felt inclined to go
even further than his Noble Friend in the assertions recognised
in the principles he laid down; but such as they were, if they
should not be carried out to the fullest extent, he
feared that this House would see, in a few short
years, perhaps a few months, the whole of their beneficial
schemes tumbled to the ground.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.")
Here the Noble Lord was interrupted by cries of " question,
question." Hon. Gentlemen might cry " question,' but he
thought they were bound to listen to the arguments of those
who were of opinion that the present system operated most
epressively on the working classes. In his opinion the time
for compromise had gene by. Compromise would have been per-
fectly practicable a few years ago, but now the time was come
when the corn-laws and every other protective duty ought at
once to be repealed. He would deal with the corn-law and
every other protective duty. He would abolish at once and
immediately every duty not levied bona fide for the purposes
of revenue. Whatever was intended for protection he
would at once repeal. The difference between him and
the Right Hon. Baronet was as to the beat mode of
arriving at free trade. The Right Hon. Baronet wished to do
so gradually—he ( Lord Howick) thought the best mode of ar-
riving at it was the shortest, the most direct, the quickest.
This, too,, would be for the interest of the agriculturists
themselves, because what they wanted was certainly for the
future. This was his great objection to a fixed duty now, tor
there would be no certainty in a fixed duty. Experience de-
monstratingly proved that the wisest course was to get rid of
protection. The system of protection was a delusion. A gra-
dual relaxation of that system would be liable to great objec-
tion. It would keep trade in a perpetual fever, which would
cause great loss and injury. But this was not the question im-
mediately raised by the first resolution. The question raised
by the first resolution was, whether the condition of the la-
bouring classes was satisfactory or otherwise. If otherwise,
could Parliament improve it; and if they could improve it,
was it not their duty at once, and without delay, to apply them-
selves to the remedy.—( Cheers. )
Sir J. HAMER argued that a reduction of protective
duties would not benefit the consumer in this country, inas-
much as experience had taught them that when the import
duty on any article was abolished the price of that article
abroad was immediately raised. It should be recollected that
one-eighth of the whole population last year received paro-
chial relief. There was one thing to which he was desirous of
calling the attention of the House—the education of the people
of the people in the fine arts. Some years ago an elector, after
telling him at the hustings that poverty had stripped him
of his franchise, expressed an earnest wish that ha ( Sir J.
Hanmer) would in Parliament support measures for the edu-
cation of the people in works of science and art. He had since
done so, and would be always most anxious to forward the
views of the poor man whose object was to give his children
the means of obtaining a decent livelihood. In 1835, before a
Committee of that House on the fine arts, much valuable evi-
dence was given. And the engraver of the Mint, Mr. Cockerel],
an architect, and others, gave evidence to the effect that a ge-
neral diffusion of artistical and scientific knowledge would be
most advantageous to the country. In fact he thought it
would open a channel for the employment of much useful and
ingenious labour. He thought everything ought to be done
which could be done to improve the cultivation of the land
and place this country in this respect on the same par with
other countries, as it was in point of skill and manufactures.
Sir ROBERT PEEL had heard with surprise the expres-
sion of the lion. Member for Sunderland, that apathy per-
vaded the majority of the House on the question then before
it, and had charged disregard of the welfare and condition of
the people upon his side of the House more particularly. If
he (the Right Hen. Baronet) thought that real indifference
was felt on the condition not only of the labouring classes, but
of the entire community, he should agree with the proposition
so emphatically advanced, that such was a proof of the incom-
petency of that House to legislate for the welfare of the country.
—( Hear, hear,) But it was in no such feeling that the list-
lessness of the House was to be sought. It was rather attribut-
able to the predominant conviction, that the Noble Lord had
not brought forward his resolutions either in the spirit or the
method calculated to ensure success in Parliament, or advan-
tage to the country. He had alluded to the absence of the Mem-
ber for Dorietshire in rather unfair and certainly unmerited
terms. No man could have evinced a greater anxiety for the
welfare of the people, nor have devised more satisfactory mea-
sures for their benefit and prosperity.--( Hear, hear.) But he
had taken a different course from the Noble Lord the Member
for the city of London. He had suggested practical measures,
not general and indefinite propositions, and he was the last
person on whom an invidious expression on his absence should
be passed. The Noble Lord might have turned to the right
and left on his own side of the House and seen many Members
who would support him in his present motion, who were not
to be found in the number of those who supported him in the
early part of the evening. He would not take the course
pursued by the Hon. Members opposite, but would merely
mention what, perhaps, others were not aware of—that at the
early part of the evening an attempt had been made
to get rid of the question by counting out the
House.—( Laughter. ) He could not see that any useful
purpose could be answered by undertaking a change in the
policy of the law. And as to the expediency of bringing for-
ward a series of propositions, each of them deserving a separate
discussion, and requiring some considerable time—such time
as was worthy of the importance of the subject—the test was best
found in the course adopted by his followers. One had alluded
to the poor-law, another to the suffrage. But, independent
of the number and incongruity of the propositions, it was im-
possible to follow or adopt them. No abstract resolution could
or ought to be adopted as to a change in the laws, before the
mode whereby the change was to be effected had been promul-
gated, or at least suggested.—( Hear, hear.) With respect to
colonisation, there never had been a time when a more exten-
sive scale was proposed and open to a Government than when
the Noble Lord was Secretary for the Colonies. He (the
Right Honourable Baronet) would not retort by taunt or
reproach, but he would remind the Noble Lord opposite,
that, with all the facilities offered at that period,
he was unable to suggest a plan of systematic
colonisation. That the subject was of importance he freely
and unequivocally admitted, but before he pledged himself to
any system he should like to know its nature and details.--
( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord had done justice to the course
pursued by his opponent% in the prosecution of this debate.
The absence of asperity had been marked, and he hoped that
such calm and dispassionate discussion would always charac-
terise the consideration of a subject so important and mo-
mentous. But what had been the course adopted by the Go-
vernment with respect to the education of the peo-
ple ? They had lately proposed for Ireland a vote
of 75,0001. for the purposes of national educa-
tion. In 1841 the vote was 50,0001. In 1841 the sum
proposed for educational purposes, in England, was 30,000/.,
in 1844, 40,0001., and for the present year the amount voted
had been no less than 75,000/., being an advance of 35,000 L
on the present over the preceding grant. But he thought they
had done nothing which ought to dishearten them. They had
increased the grant for educational purposes from 40,000/. to
70,000/. He considered it a great object to promote educa-
tion, when it carried with it the approbation of all parties.
The resolutions of the Noble Lord, he thoaght, would be of
little value, when compared with the systera which the Go-
vernment intended to promote, and to aid which the
Government would call upon those who, by their money and
time were capable to co-operate with them in the attainment
if the object. But let us not be too liberal with the expendi-
ture of the public money. Let us proceed gradually, with pru-
dent generosity, to insure the co-operation of those who are
willing and competent to assist us. He knew of no higher con-
necting link between the lower and the higher classes than the
desire of those who were able, and came forward voluntarily to
contribute to the comfort of individuals, to whose labour they
were so much indebted. The Noble Lord demanded that we
should give our support to a rather liberal and extensive mea-
sure for the promotion of education. We have already had the
authority of a fatal experience of measures founded on liberal
and comprehensive principles.—( Hear.) It is easy to make
the proposition—it is more easy to bind ourselves by a pledge,
but let us pause and consider before we in any way commit
ourselves. We thought that the Educational Bill was a liberal
and comprehensive measure, but we had reason to congratulate
ourselves that nopledges had been given in a restricted degree.
He objected to the resolutions of the Noble Lord that they
amalgamated together too many circumstances which could
be much better disposed of by single discussion, and he ob-
jected to the Noble Lord's request that we should legislate
with respect to education, to colonisation, and to parochial
settlements. This, in his opinion, was the principal objection
against the reception of the resolutions that had been proposed
by the Noble Lord. The Right Hon. Baronet then proceeded
to read the resolutions which had been proposed by Lord John
Russell, and said that he was surprised that the Noble Lord
the member for Sunderland had expressed his intention to vote
in favour of those resolutions, because the Noble Lord had
previously indicated some objection to pursue such acts and
deliberate arrangements as might be more beneficial to her
Majesty's subjects. He ( Sir Robert Peel) did not know how
he cuuld differ from the Noble Lord, or take those resolutions
into consideration unless accompanied by those arrangemer•
which would be more beneficial to her Majesty's subject- He
really thought that the Noble Lord would have 0--
omote'd that
course as they had riot pledged themselves
course, except it were accompanied l' „. to any particular
liberated arrangements," which
e these
w
,s b
, would
ant
d
de-
were believed meat
mote the interests of all el.is,es of her ilajest
considering the tAture of the policy that hail beeni hitherto
pursued, he could not conceive how it was possible the Noble
Lord the Member for Sunderland should vote in favour of the
resolutions proposed by the Noble Lord. The Noble Lord the
Member for Sunderland had underrated agitation on the sub-
jecs, The Noble Lord who had introduced the matter, had
also declared, that in the event of the resolutions ho pro-
posed being carried, he should recommend a fixed duty of
either be., Os., or 7s. If he was well supported by his
friends and the House lie would propose tie. ; if
otherwise, then he wvuld propose es, The Noble

-------- !OSP
DIED.
On theal.,2esithLiandsyt.,TiiinoLng,laegseeacipBl;.ce, Southampton'
the Dow • • froJeriJ
major
Early in January last, in New South Walei, it. lia
slinoobviieni net,dheoeilii,l2yfsostr
surviving
It: eviriTNiy,s•itno.
inst.,
liar Ma
I,l:lE(oarjit.eitsahtlylo:ls.lpa3lt4actLi , 1110,giii!:,110,10 n ~ 1•51110( e,
lane, Fleet-street. ii3fsl3s
On the 2t;th inst., in North Wales, Agnrels'.:::l6Bl°'tli:
daughter of Dr. Day. Southwick-street.

YOV:44'.f
London: Printed and Published by 111URPO - Ilse
No. 112, Strand, Printer, at The Sup& Officab `'oalog •
Strand, in tie l'rectuct of the Savoy,* ow
iliddleaez, Thursday, May 21, 11464