The Sun.
London, England, 1842-06-08 00:00:00

SHUTTING OUT ON DIVISIONS.

Sir R. INGLIS said; he rose in the discharge of a
painful duty, respecting a matter which those Members
who were present at the last division last night, when
the House was in Committee, would recollect—he meant
the difficulty experienced ot, the part of Honourable
Members desiring to go forth to the lobby, in
consequence of an obstruction within that lobby itself.
So at least those who were in the House under-
stood by what had occurred at the time.
When the Committee met and the-division was told, and
when other business had proceeded to the extent of the
Chairman leaving the chair, an Hon. Friend of his, the
Hon. Member for the county of Peebles, made a state-
ment to which he would not now further call the atten-
tion of the House, • than. to state that it affected
in the strongest • manner the character mid the
discharge of the functions of an officer of
the Crown who was appointed to attend that House as
its Sergeant-at-Arms. s They all knew that the Ser-
eant-at-Arms, the servant of the t'roien there,
had no means of making himself heard
.in his own de-
fence, except by a communication . on paper to some
individual. Sir William Gossett, the Sergeant-at-
Arms, had addressed to .him (Sir H. Inglis) a letter,
which, with the permission of the House, he. would
now read. •It was. dated, " House of Commons.
7th of June, 1842," and was signed, " William
Gossett." It began—" Sir,—A statement having been
made last night to the House, by Mr. Mackenzie, the
Member forPeebleshire, that I had forcibly thrust him
from the door of the House as ha was entering
for 'a division, and that • I had • adopted a rude
course towards him, I fear if I were to allow this
statement to remain., uncontradictede should
suffer in the estimation of the
,House ; and . I feel
it • due to my character, and to the situation I
have the honour • of, holding, to clear myself
from an imputation which, if correct, 'would render me
unworthy of the confidence of' the douse, in the present
discharge of a most delice te and important duty, by which
decisions of the utmost moment might be affected.
I therefbre take the' opportunity to pray the house
will be pleased to have the- matter fully investigated,
when I pledge myself that Mr..Mackenew was not enti-
tled to vote ; that I did not thrust him back ; that
after the door of the House was locked he asked me
through the wicket tn. admit him and other Members
thrust out ; and that he acted contrary to the rules of
the House in not withdrawing from the lobby
when ordered.—l have tlse honour' to be, Sir,
your -humble servant, Williain Gossett." He had also
received a letter from an Honourable Member, who
was one of these who were shut out,' but ess• that Hon.
Member was present, reshape it would be better that he
should himself state what had taken place.—(Hear.)
Mr. ATTWOOI) said he might be allowed to state
what he witnessed last night. He was one of those shut
out from the division.: lie aipproaehed the .door of the
House for the purpose of hearing the question put ; the
door was locked when he arrived at it, giving him in-
formation that the question was already put,
and therefore that it would not be COM petent
for him to vote • upon .;a question which he
had not' heard. TiVoe Members near him requested
the door-keeper to open the door, but he refused in a civil
manner. The lion. Member fur Peebles asked him to
open the door again, and he again refused, but as he
Mr. Atwood thought, in terms of strict civility.
It was his opinion that' Members should not think their
personal convenience of such importance as that the rules
of the House should be relaxed in consequence. He
observed, however, that the Honourable Member
for Peebles, instead of retiring from the lobby, took
his seat there ; and on being requested to retire, refused
to do so in very decisive terms. fle understood the
Hon. Member was afterwards removed, and he was• sure
that the officer of the Crown had not exceeded his duty,
under the-circumstancessin adopting that course. It was
abeolutely necessary that gentlemen who had not heard
the question should not remain amongst those who had
given their voices, alai were in the lobby fur the pur-
pose of being counted ; if
.they were to-remain it would
be impossible to conduct the4livisimis properly.
Mr. MACKENZIE said that he had received a letter
froni Sir William Gossett, informing him that he had.
written on this matter •to the Honourable Member for
the University of OxfOrd. About a quarter of an
hour ago, than Homan-0)1e Member told him (Mr.
Mackenzie) that he was in possession of that
letter, and intended to read it at five lie
asked the' Hon. Member to let him (Mr. M'Kenzie) see
the letter, but he regretted to say that he was not
allowed to do so. He would retract no part of the state-
ment he made last night ; he asserted then, and he would
do so now, that he thohght he was unjustly excluded
from voting, on the occasion referred to. When he was on
the top step of the stairs, the door was open, and he was
just in the act of entering when the door was pushed to.
With regard to his conduct afterwards in refusing to
leave the lobby, that was highly improper, and he ex-
pressed his•regret at it. But he felt that he was un-
justly excluded, and that he wasnot fairly dealt with. He
made no charge against the Sergeant-at-Arms. His
remarks assumed rather the form of a question—a wish
to know whether it was the rule that Members should be
excluded under the circumstances, and he was told
that he had no • right to vote, ' unless he
was within the four walls of the House.
Neither the Right Hon. Member for Oxford, nor the
Hon. Member for Whitehaven were. more anxious to
observe the rules of the House ; but the case was one
of extreme peculiarity, because it could be scarcely said
that he was either within the walls •of the House or the
lobby. There was a dull debate on a dull subject—
everything to induce Members to retire, and they drew
their conclusions from the ,number of strangers in the
lobby. But if inconvenience were Mt in coming from
the refreshment-room now, how much more would the
inconvenience be felt in the New Houses, where lone
passages and galleries would, have to be traversed by
them. He had expressed his regret for one part of his
conduct, but be appealed to his Hon. and Galiaat Friend
if what he stated was not true.

Major BERESFORD said, that he was pr,:sent with
his Hon. Friend, and he thought they were in perleet
lime when they came to the door, which was .closed. H
though'. it extremely hard, alter having remained
.luring the whole of the debate to be excluded.—
(Laughter.) He could only say that in his opinion they
were unjustly excluded from the House, and that his
lion. Friend had truly stated,what passed.
Sir J. GRAHAM hoped that the discussion would
not be carried any further. • On the whole he did not
think there was any contradiction to the ftaternent. of
the officer, who discharged a difficult duty according
to the orders of the House, and, at the .same time,
with all the complaisance due to • Honourable
Members. The order was • . that the dour should
be locked at the very. moment when the question
was put, and when there was a press of Members,
this was very difficult to do with all the gentle-
ness that might be desired., He hoped what had
taken place would lead Members to attend more strictly
to the orders of the House; and at the same time confirm
the Sergeant-at-Arms in the course he .had usually
cbscrved.

The conversation then dropped.
THE QUEEN'S LETTER.

In answer to questions from Mr. C. BALDwIN and
another HON. MLMDER,
Sir J. GRAHAII said that the sums raised under
the Queen's - letttr would be paid into the Bank
of England in the names of certain individuals
forming part of the Manufacturers' Relief Committee; that
Committee was first formed in 1825, and had con-
tinued to discharge its duties at various intervals
up to last winter, when it adrainistered relief in the ma-
nufacturing districts. At the request of the Government,
that Committee had consented to continue its benevolent
labours.

Mr. HUME did not know what right that Committee
had to distribute the alms collected under her Majesty's
loiter. He had heard a statement that there were no
Dissenters on that Committee ; that in tact it was an
exclusive Committee. The names of the Members of
that Committee ought to be made known. in order that
the public might be satisfied that the relief wonld be im-
partially distributed.
Sir 4AMES Qll4HAlit agreed with the Hon. Gen-
tleman that it was of the utmost importance that the
public should feel assured that the relief would be im-
partially distributed. The Hon. Member had been mis-
informed as to the constitution -of the Committee. It
was incorrect to state that there were no , Dissenters on
it : the very last communication he had received fr9m

___.----

r;i (:,.:trtittte wa-y ssgoefl T
he believed that Mr. Stnrge was a Quaker. •
Mr. HUME explained amidst loud cries of " Under fit
order I" which rendered him nearly inaudible.
Fear-
• EMPLOYMENT OF cHILDRENLe e.
Sir R. H. INGLIS presented a petition frOP •t"
clergy of the Established Church in the West hiding of
Yorkshire, in favour of the measure of the Noblerut
„.
the Member for Dorsetshire, to regulate the emPloYlll.c:.:,,,:e;i.
of children in mines ; also a petition, with a sign'.
prayer, from the ministers and members of variouS
seating congregations in Yorkshire.
POOR-LAW AMENDMENT ACT.
In reply ton question from Mr. S. CRAWFORD,
Sir J. GRAHAM said that it was not his intention'tot
move the second reading of the Poor-law Aniendu"
Act until the tariff was disposed of.
EMPLOYMENT OF CHILDREN IN MINES.
Lord ASHLEY presented a petition from Clieltenhanli.. .
es
in favour of a Bill for regulating. the cruplo3'lll"t°.
children and women in 'min and colleries. The SP"hl„
Lord, in submitting to the House the Bill of whir-I.ie
l . '•
had given notice, then proceeded to say that it would.llot
he hoped, be deemed presumptuous on his part 0111'
when he rose to propound his motion to the House. nr„
when he asked for its sympathy and partial hearing, he sienna
•add, at the same time, that. he felt quite certain of obtainift;
their indulgence. The novelty rf the subject, its magyitu",ee
the deep and solemn interest that at:ached to it throughout to:
country, and the consideration of its vital influenee on the ss.';'_
fare of so large a portion of our fellow-countrymen, would
of themselves sufficient to obtain for him a favourable heel
He would not, moreover, forget the indulgence which be
on many former occasions experienced from the House. '
might now perhaps he allowed just so far to speak of himself 1
to say that there was some little reason why he then pressef
himself forward in bringing this matter under the notice°
Parliament. The Report lying on the table leas t°,
3
first Report of the Commission for which be
the honour to move in the month of Anna,
The prayer of that motion had been granted bye !he
t
then Administration ; and he must avail himself 01.
pportunity and of every other fitting opportunity of eitpres3'l:l;
his sincere and heartfelt thanks to the members of the he
Government, and more especially to his Hen. Friend
Member for Perth, the then Under-Secretary of State, and -,
his Noble Friend in the other House of Parliament, at thi
•
time at the bean of the Home Department, not only. for tma
Commission which they had granted, but for the Commissinn;ir,
e
they had appointed—gentlemen who had discharged "d
duties assigned to them with unrivalled skill, fidelity, 'Ol
zeal._( Hear, hear.) Now it was impossible fur any. 05%
whatever might be his station, if he had but a heart M
bosom, to read the details of that awful document without COte'
bined feelings of shame, of horror, and indignation. tiut be
would dwell on the evils of the system rather than. on WO
who might be accused as being in some measure kis auth°"‘„
An enormous mischief had been discovered, and En irnmene, •-d
remedy was called for. Sure he was, that if enoie who had
power would be as ready to abate oppression as those 0)011,45
suffered would be to forget its inflict:on—sure . he was Of
there would take place such a revival of good understandi%
between master and man, between wealth and want, betweel
the rulers and the ruled, as would conduce to the restoratioa
social comfort, and, under God's blessing, to the permanefn
u
security of the empire.--( Hear, hear.) When he moeeJ r
the Commission he ventured to state the manifold axedileP°r„..
tent character of the information that would be deeeeed frV-e
that inquiry, and that expectation had been fulfi'lled. There,
were other Reports still to come, which would show the wiLli
-ie
condition of the people. The Report that had already been in',
showed many sad causes of pauperism,' and disorciej,
engendered by the present system, which was, evidently. Wet
ing fast to the destruction of the British race. The Bert.,
also showed the condition, moral, social, and religious, oft"
people. He knew it might be said that vice was not new:
that it had occurred, and would occur again. . That was 0::
enough, but the danger to the country from these thing `c'e
not comparative but absolute. Their forefathers had totre
with thousands, while they had to deal with millions. e
must act boldly with the evil, or its magnitude world be 3
'great that it could not be overcome. He would now prel,
to show what was the condition of the lower orders of th
country who worked in mines and colleries ; in doing s" e,
would have to detain the House with a long and wearis`-'we
detail ; but it was better to snake out a case by evidenc
than by mere statement. He would first of all call the aUej.;
tion of the House to the age and sex of persons employed, i,
mines and collieries. This differed in different parts, lie".6e
some parts the male only was employed, while
in othelle;e
female was employed too, and in South Staffordshire, Shropselle,,
and Derbyshire, it was the custom to employ. children in•,7„
lieries at the age of five or six years. In Somerset, children
tweeo five and six years of age were employed in the min,ee's
In the smaller collieries, towards the hills, they were even a'
earlier age. In Cumberland many at seven years of age ;
South Durham some were found as early as five years of agor
There was a ;remark of the Commissioner, Dr. .IVlitchele
this subject, which he would mention. The Commissioner s;
it was very true the children employed were not very numee°re
still their number was such as wan painful to conternid?,,,
Many there were who now heard of such a state of thin
for the first time, but it was an evil which he firaily.bthe:„,'
they would hear of with sorrow and regret. However,
in J tice to the great coal mines in the north of Englan°l4,
(Lord Ashley) must say that the greatest care •44
kindness had been shown towards the workmen, and me
.gigr,
of the evils stated in the Report were not mentioned as 4'0040
cable to the great northern mines. In North Devotithere
1,
some children employed in the mines at five years of age. In
the east of Scotland it was more common for children to begot
work at five nr six years than in England. In the wvstrih,
Scotland children began to work eta very early age. In N°
Wales children of five years of age were rarely employed irt 0-
mines, but very commonly at seven years of age. In S'onf
Wales more cases occurred of children of early age than in
other. It was not unusual there to take them into the l,t7s 1g
four years of age. In North Somerset the ages were gen!!b.ce
between six and seven. In Ireland the es at which child
e
were sent into the mines were never under taghirteen and betvrtes
hat
that and eighteen. Wirth respect to Ireland, he saw het,
neither children of tender years, nor females of. any age "'
ever, were employed in those underground opertitio':
could not but say that he had often admired the georositY
warm-heartedness of the Lish people, and he must say tha • e
this were to be taken es a specimen of their barbarism, he tr t
not tar:huge it for all the refinement and polish of theta
civilised nations. The next point • was the chars''',
of the localities ; arid this formed a very material
ele
sideration. If the ventilation and drainage were,oo
that• was a great alleviation. If otherWiee, the 01er
painful diseases would be engendered. The charsetio
of the employment must depend, to a reat extent, on to,
seam, which varied from ten inches to twenty yards. In S°..°
Staffordshire the mines were warm and dry, and there b'ates
con•iderable supply of fresh air for ventilation. The ;yr'
might be said of Warwickshire and Leicestershire, but in
ole
byshire the state of things was very fearful; black done fre•
very prevalent, the ventilation was very bad, there weee,oll
quent and fatal explosions, and the work people were rhere
distressed by the quantity of carbonic gas which every ";,,e 9
abounded. The Report stated that many of the pits we'li,,es
wet, that the work people bad to work all day With their s the
covered with water, which was constantly dripping frs'nley's
roofs ; and that, a short time after they commenced their
.apy,
labour, their clothes were drenched. The children, 'esPecl eicie
complained of this state of things. It must be borne it. '"e'„;s4
that in this district the regular period for a full day's labour la
fourteen, and necasienally sixteen hours.—(Hear, bele. )ee:e
North Lancashire, the drainage was extremely bad; thee,' the
was always knee-deep, and often belly-deep in water. 1"olie
east of Scotland, the working was sometimes WO the
hundred to two hundred yards from the main road
,eesi
females had to crawl back on their hands and ki
the drainage and ventilation were both exceedingly ere
In North Wales the roads were low and narrow ; theleutt
was dirty, nasty, damp, and badly ventilated. In
Wales ventilation was neglected. The people complain'
the presence of carbonic acid gas, sufficient to produce
rious effects on the workmen, though not to stop '
As a general result, the Commissioners stated that
men in Glamorganahire and Pembrokeshire suffered
of ventilation, which produced unwholesome dises
had a manifest tendency to shorten life or abridge
of useful labour. The Hansa would see it was abut's'

nary, in order to make out a case,• that he should
matter accurately, and for this purpose it was better
the words of the evidence itself, which might easily '
ened by the efforts of one's own imagination.
:Now, with regard to the nature of the employment,
especially worthy the attention of the House. It aj
children and young persons were employed to dra
chains in Shropshire, Derbyshire, the West Ridint
shire, Lancashire, Cheshire, the north of Scotland,
South Yorkshire. The children were compelled to
fours, with a girdle round the waist, and they were
loads by a chain which passed between their legs.
where they were so employed, were worse than a
sewer, and more wet, and they continued all day
foul air, a damp place, and destructive ti
Witt was the testimony of the people the,
this point. One said " the labour was sev,
old miner said, "he could only say it was a
A young child, Robert Norfolk, said " that he was
work at seven years of age; that a girdle was tied
hint; that the skin broke, and the blood rack (I(
.said " that he was afraid of beteg beaten' if he said
and that he could not straighten his back the whole
the West Riding of Yorkshire girls were employed
and they worked, being. naked down to the waist.
collieries these females worked with adult colliers,
also naked ; two gentlemen stated, that though liTiL
few miles, they could not have believed that such ci
isted. The Commissioner went on to say, that in a
New Mill the chain had worn holes in the troir

girls, and he slates that no sight could be so di
indecent—no brothel could equal it. It was it
the Noble Lori) to enlarge on all these horrors • the
was nlost abundant, and seleetion would be difficult.
he would say, that nothing could be mere graphic er
ing than the eviden.:e of many of these poor girls
who, insulted, oppressed, and corrupted as they
(xhibited oftentimes a simplicity and kindness %chic'
dered tenfold more heartrending the system that had fort
away' from the holier and happier duties to which P.N.,:
had destined them, into occupations so unsuited, so harl;3,l,
degrading.—(Cheers.) Some girls had to traverse„tls°,i
14,000 and even 16,000 yards daily. In the east of ; so,
girls and women were mostly employed in carryingearpOlt,
one girl, of six years of age, had to make fourteen) ola 7
day with a weight of 501bs. of coal in each journey, "f
ascend a height equal to that of S. Paul's cathedral. .s`sittoe_of
It appeared, from the evidence taken before the Coln°. g
td
Con) tew
that fathers had frequently ruptured themselves in 'I sys r
upon their children's backs.—( Hear, hear.) therelo'4,
were bad for the female sex generally, it was stilllo,
rible for pregnant women. He would refer them 'nig rsthper
deuce of the work people themselves, and he would rietfie;etli,
upon the evidence of the work people than upon die teir
evidence put together. He had never been misled t'e or
Bence of the working people in any thing that relate(eidenco;
own condition.—(Cheers.) Let them look at the t (°lO,O
Betty liaise. 'She stated that she worked with belt or
her waist, and a chain between her legs ; that, in aseeo roPe'cli
pit she had to lay hold of a rope, and if there were hod *',er:
anything that she could catch hold of, that it vial. sys'eo
That she was frequently standing up to her thistn; skin beep
that her clothes were constantly
110
wet, and that b!„, bild„00,
frequently rubbed off by the belt and chain. I°Th ;91°.
known in which women had been delivered of childr!,ach
to work in a week. The oppression of coal-bearing v'''ssbose.oo,
impair women in after hfe ; there were few v• ot Plied 4
were not injured before they were thirty years elaiways Op!
hers of them had dead children, and they were day s afterlife
to go to work in the pits within ten or twelve al, theYorlk
were delivered, and up to the moment of deliv,e lorfe
kept at work. One witness stated that it WaS only and the
that it crushed their' haunches, bent their anew:
said „of!
them old women at forty. One old Scotchwnizna sir
Zoo- be!
Commissioners, you may just let Queen Victoria
wave die
are all true loyal subjects, that we do not wive the, oeth°,,
that we object to horse work, and that she w,"
get u'ssid 'ef
ings of all the coal women on her head if she II 40
the pit and send us to other work.--(Cheerilie bless' ever;
(Lord Ashley), and she would not only haye.singa -0' The
all the Scotch coal women, but the hie:), . evell OA
female who felt for her sex, and dalughtt'r."
who knew what, it was to have a 4l;preef,
next point of consideration was the hours
emplo7.. rsee
time arest. When the work-people lindef,u,',l,4oo o'e" .
appeared that the regular hours for the n"" . •

ed. In ';',l ts!efi,
corm:42M% te,.1,,
D• produce
stop the s4,:orly,t
that the
Tered from h" O'
o
diseases.
,e,rt,'?t'
;
bridge the lece'd
Lbsolutely ;1'
should Statedott!,l
I better tf"lill'!')",
saillpypbees
ttion.--(r".f
ovment, til.t.
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ds " •
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hey ha'tb I
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