The Sun.
London, England, 1818-06-04 00:00:00

I,,DUCATION 01." TUE POOR.

Mr. BtiottGnasa brought up the Report of the
Poor Education Committee.—Laid on the table,
Ile said,- the Poor Edneation Biit had been re-
stored to .something like its original efficacy a 1 d
vigour,, and theretore lie would not now oppose
the amendment's in it, as' he had at first intrud-
ed. Still,it was far trout bviug that wholesome
Measure whieh it was when they sent it to
.the
other House. The pit was now restricted to
inquiriesintoCharities for the Education of the
Poor. He was at a loss to know the cause of that,
fur the Cowin if tee toutol abuses were not confined
to such charities alone., Another most important
object was, to impeire into the state of the Poor
as tl► Education ; but rtrat hadbeen amended by
their Lordships,. and he was bound to accept it
at the end of the Session, as Ice could not help
hirnself. The power, the House - had gisew the
•Commissiimers was not only abridged, hot en-
tirely abrogated; ro.that they had no power to
call tor a single person or paper, or to compel
their attendance. The [louse might suppose that
there would be but few voluntary. witnesses when
the Commissioners cattle to make inquiry. These
charitable institutions were all anxious for in-
.quiry, as they pretended ; hut no sooner was a
question or two-put
.to. them, than it came out
that they had taken an oath not to divulge their
statutes. Bit he hoped the Commissioners would
inform the Committee of that House who they
were who refused to give them information, and
then the Committee would know how to compel-
them. Their Lordships had accused them of
slovenliness in drawing up this Bill ; but they had
at first, instead of eight Commissioners making
up tour boards, amended the Bill by making each
board consist of three Commissioners, so that
two our of the eight Were useless and sinecure
Commissioners. At last, their Luirdships, in their
wisdOtn, added another Commissioner, making
three boards only; by so doing, putting the
country to one-eighth more expense, for one-
third less work lie hoped these .atterapts at
arneridtneitt dial "tart indicate a wish to get rid
of tie ~tileasure altogether. The Honourable
Gentleinan had heard many objections to Bilk,
such as there .was no penalty clause, atid
other objections of that description, which was
feasible. 'But here the grand objection was—that
in this Bill " there was no hinting clause." This
was the first time he had heard it was necessary
that hints should be introduced into Bills. He
ridiculed the tardy progress with which causes
are proceeded en in the Courts of Equity, and
said, if hints were of service to the. two Noble and
Learned Lords who mainly objected to the Bill,
be would give them a few, extracted from evi-
dence taken before the Committee on the abuses
in respect to charitable donations. He read ex-
tracts from the evidence of several highly respect-
able persons, who, in a cause of enquiry respect-
ing a charitable institution, in Westmoreland, had
gone into Chancery in 1804, were not yet nnt of
it, and were actually ruined. So much for the
Court of Chancery! Many of these persons were
ruined, not only ruined in health, but in pocket
also. He then detailed, from a variety of cases,
one which was put down for bearing day by day,
during the mouths of January and February ; its
each dafjudgment was expected, but delayed, at
a great expellee to the Suitor : at length the pa-
pers in the case were mislaid, and it must again
be set down for hearing, But this was not all—
for ts
then there was such a thing as going into the
Master's Office, where another expence was
in-
curred, and then came exceptions to the Master's.
report, with an addition of expellee. The Hon.
Gentleman here took occasion to conipliment the
talents, learning, judgment, and abilities of the
Noble Lord who, presides in the Court of Chan-
cery. He Aid -not complain of that Noble Lord,
but of the Court ; the expence of which justified
the. satire of Dean Swift, who made' Gulliver tell
his master, the Hooky:tin, that in England a man
had been ruined who had gained a Chancery suit
with full costs. With respect to the enquiry into
abuses in charitable institutions, the House must
do its duty ; for-the country was looking to them.
Here was no town, city, parish, or hatulet which
hard not some chat ity in it; they tequired that the
House should make the charities available for the
objects for which they were formed ; the poor de-
manded it, and he Called upon the House to insti-
tute a Committee of Enquiry next Session, to re-
medy the defects in the present Bill, and to pro-
vide means to prevent the Poor from being robbed
in friture. Lie then moved an Address to [hi!
Prince Regent, to issue a Commission to enquire
into the state of the Education of the Poor, and
to report from time to dine their enquiries.
Lord CasTLEREAG!.I disclaimed (lily intention or
wish on the part of Ministers to shrink front en-
quiry into the state of Charitable Institutions.
The Lion. Gentleman must be aware that great
difficulties must arise in course of any enquiry.
s tar as he could recoll,ct, the last Com:nission
was only to enquire into st of Education given
to the I'uor. With resp,,cr_ i the other House,

it was not unfair to suppose that they ShCould not
he prepared to go the length wl►ich the Hon.
Gentleman was disposed to go. He did not think
the Ilan. Gentleman had acted very fairly, in tak-
ing a view of the proceedings in the Court of
Chancet•y in the manner in whip!' be had done.
It was . ungenerous to degrade and vilify any
legal institution. The Commission) if appointed,
would not, in his opinion, have the effect- which
the Ponottrable Gentleman hoped ; besides, they
must eventually, in sotue cases, come before the
Court of Chancery. It would retard rather than
adianca the great cause in which the Hon. Gen-
tleman was engaged, and it world be invidious
to run counter to tl►e other House. The Bill
would provide, as it now stands, for all neces-
sary inquiry, as a first step. On the whole, he
objected to a multitude of CoMmissions which
this motion would erect ; and he thought it would
he better to remain content with the Commission
already appointed, and the Bills before the
[louse, than to destroy the harmonious spit it
,rl►ich exists. These measures concocted, would,
in his purview of the case, -satisfy all the reason-
al►le, :mil indeed fundamental, feat urea of the sob-
jeer. The country had at least between 40-and
50.000 charitable institutions, which would oc-
cupy much (line at this late period of the Session,
and therefore he must ohjeet to the motion. tie
d.precated the idea of taking any proceeding, its
cie plesent temper of the Howie, which might
interfere with ally inquiry -going on. The.parti-•
cud-+t branch of education alluded to, had been
rejected in another p!rice. He then ex pressed his
surprise that • the Hon. an►d Learned Gentleman
should IlAve retired after submitting his proposal
to the House.,---His. Lordsh;p then moved the
previous yuei.tiot►.

Mr. LitouGutAm (who returned to Lis sent
shor't time after Lord Castlereagh noticed his
absence) rose to explain. He assured the Ncble
Lord, that though he was out of the gallery, be
had heard all that he had sail. He was only
takinz soar slonents, and no part of the Noble
Loid's speech was lost upon him.
Sir S. Rom ILLY concurred in thinking, that the
COUrt. of Chancery was not an adequate remedy
'for the abuses alluded to, tot tke several reasons
which had been stated.

Mr. B. BATtatrasT supported the observations
of the Noble Lord, and observed, that the lion.
and Learned Gentlemen did not, in the first edi-
tions of his Bill, propoNe to extend the investiga-
tion to all charitable institutions.
Mr. Ewsosr %vithed the measure to be made
effective, and should vote against the Bill ,in..-the'
disgraceful state in which it now was.
Mr. ABERCROMBIE said, the Commission under
this Bill would be extremely defective; and the
question was, whether it would not, be necessary
to extend an inquiry into the educati,in' of the
Poor. If the result of the inquiry',wOultr be the
disclosure of the grossest abuseS,: the House would
he wanting in its duty it it disappointed the fair
expectations of the public in that respect. If such
an inquiry was to be gone into., a great saving of
expence'wotad take place.
Mr. LOCKHART Stopported the motion, and in a
powerful anti argumentative speech,.. contended
that the inquiry ought note only to-.extend to all
charitable institutions whatever, but that it was
their duty to arm the Commissioners with such
powers for con;;Actii,g it as should leave those
connected with charities no chance of escaping the
vigilance of that House. •

The CHANCELLOR Of the EXCHEQUER said, it
would he. very irregular to adopt such a mode of
proceeding as was recommended by the Hon. and
Learned Gen►leman ; and the House had no right
of its own authority to do a thing which could only
be done by a new Bill. There ce►tainly had not
been for many years any inquiry in;o' charitable
funds; but the Hon. Gentleman-should recollect;
that there never was a time when charities had
multiplied so much as the 'present. In a future
Session of Parliament he should be ready to
follow up the present Bill by a supplementary
measure of a more effectual nature, to which the
consent of the other House might be obtained ;
but such a proceeding as was now called for,
would only increase expense, and embarrass the
commission.

Mr. .1. SMITH was convinced, front being a
Member of the Committee, that, unless this 1-lo Use
were determined to shot their ears to all inquiry,
it was impossible for any body of men, consti-
tuted as this present Commission is, to do away
with abuses in public charitiei. 1-le was instruct-
ed, on the part of the (Makers, to state, that they
were anxious to hate their institutions examined
and sure he was, that no honest men, holding
charitable • trusts, would object to having their
trusts inquired into.
F,BURDETT fully coincided with the opi-
nion of. the Learned Gentleman, and the Honour-
able Gentleman who spoke last, as to the neces-
sity of a full inquiry into the subject. lla wished
to know what was there improper in such an ad-
dress to the Crown, as should carry into effect
the wishes that had been unanimously expressed
by that House,' when it passed a Bill • that was
since Mutilated and deprived of every thing bene-
ficial to the country. And these mutilations were
made by a high legal character, who was pro-
perly the protector of all who had none else to
protect them ; and who ought to have-.been the
first to defend the poor against those dilapidations
of property that had been intended for their use.
it was impossible for hint to conceive that that.
high legal character could have acted from mo-
tives which a candid and benevolent ,mind Would
suggest to itself. It was revolting to an honour-
able mind to suppose that a set of Trustees would
show any reluctance to give every intormation
that might be required of them. An inquiry into
such scautlalons abuses should never-be let to go
out of that house ; it should be pursued by
Committees of that house, and shoold not
he left to Commissioners appointed by the
Crown. The result of such inquiries had al-
ways been the incurring of great expence, with-
out any effectual remedy. As to the Court
of Chancery, such wet e the modes of-proceed-
ing there, that it would be a mere farce for
any one to institute an inquiry there respect-
ing any charities, or to expect • any thing
like justice there. Suitors might wait for years,
and waste all their substance, and he rained, be-
fuze they could obtain any thing like justice, al4 j

thotigh the law sail, *that justice shoulA oe.'r'ct
delayed to any one; and it was natural"l'lcott
that the very learned person who presided en I .ad
Court :could resist d proceeding that. 'ven(
it. op
immediate efrecttlitl correction of all 3‘ol
Great numbers Of beneVOlent persons were
►ll- r
promoting plans for the eddeation of the
and subscribing large sums Nor the porpoie;, °lto
it was a gross injustice iii them not to 31)?4, to
their patriotic • objects those fends belonl-',10,1'
charitable donations which were nosy So se'fld 0;
Doily abused. He trusted that the Learned ,—te
denten, who had •devoted a most landableil.:r
Lion to this most important question, vrqu''
severe until he finally succeeded in his etiortg•
Mr. CANNING justified the conduct of tbeilAPP
in what they had done respecting this tid"i,-,04
the 20th of May the Bill teas sent onto the 13"-e'it
of Lords, and they had only a fortnight tO-orid°iguld
and modify a work that had occupied the Sc!`
of Commons during the greater part of. (bed 00
sion. Many other important Bids were Se- ei
along with that Bill ; and it was not (0 beek-I)1
peeled that it would be so speedily sent ba-jit.
the Lords in the Corm in which they reset gill,
They left out some m aerial parts of illfr pe,
which they felt it necessary to put off Oer
S
tore discussion ; and unless it would be 49e
;0W
that the 119 use was to take the whole
ht
of legislation: into its oven hands, it was vi',(2).'ittig
to impeach the condutt of the other House
adopting all that had passed icr that Honsere4,79
ing this Was it to be said that the.''telt
would never agree to what they had lately Or from
and what.. public inconvenience could ariO .for
their amendments ? There Was no preteeiad 1
saying that any practical objvct could be Iti;1
from presenting an address to the Co`c-f,ltlljorl:e
doH.; which, the House would be malcin6,bol!
sit ides. towards arrogating to itself tbeir
power of the legislation of the country. J.:vitt;
the new theory of Reform, to give such P° 11.
the House of Commons, let it he decleredee
once. This was as much as for the
10 say, that it had a short cut to the Cl"
doing which, the power of the other lioose‘-ilif;
be called in question. It was to preveot
chievons conflict of this kind that lie nos °Noe
the address. Jr was a proposition to do, ‘itret
coercion of one branch of the legislJtorcid
another, that which another branch had
to do. this infringement on the po%vekre)a
Lords was made in one instance, it might ",to: '
("
in many others. Besides, there was enoogd Pi;
copy the attention of Commissioners until Ole
liament should meet again ; and then the" Itl°!
Clause, of the Bill might be revived c‘)ti
House. This address would not mill be
stitutional but would he utterly nin:"“)rjfititi
the Commissioners would have as 01°)"
to perform as they possibly could attend t°t'i,
fore the next Session of Parliament, withott Is
ing additional ditties imposed on thew 1:700
Crown. There was not therefore any tag 001‘;
point of tune, that could justily the Moose 'lolf 11,
ing such an itiroad on the constitution oil'',
country ; to stigmatise the Lords for Otoeral'
their' duty ; • and to establish such a di'hl'inect'(l,l:
precedent. This was the ground of 105
In the moths ; and he assured the LCarrte
i 3 0l
denten that he was not unfriendly t°
jec:: -
. f 11,5 dir

. .
Mr. BIVOUGIIAM re .lied ttt defcnce °'
tion ; after which the House divided, wl,
)-
appeared—
For the Motion.

. R 9 4
............
..to

Against it •- 116.
Another motion proposed by Mr vs° ,41
was negatived withont a
division.
An animated conversation arose asl° °re C:6
::?;1"
to' be put sued should the amendments
Charity Schools Bill by the Lords be rje'7o
% vhich concluded with the deciaratingll
i
Brougham, that be would rather take Li'eji,lar°:#
as amended by the Lords, than nothirig;
It! would, at a very eat ly period of the 14Cef%olit;T
sion,. move for the appointment of c.otrel,v
sinners, and, il- possible, the very sklo'ied
stoners who were to act under thil
quire into the abuses of all Public C 1011.00:
every where the pour %vete robiked, low lipe,
places, he feared, under very high palrulleCii
The amendinenta made by the Lords t .#f
city Schools Inquity_Bill were agreed to; it
Ott the motion of Lord cAst,ERE,Oto
°
ordered that the House at its risitig 5b

jaunt till Friday.
P ANT H EON TH EATR E. ,itiof1;011,
re%
Sir F. BURDETT said, he had presented 3 111
time back from Mr. Cundy, of the Panthcoil'ressf:oorlie
case was very hard. Ills license had been soVraol• r.;
Lord Chamberlain Pfter expending 50 or 60/4, tad tr:
concern. This he did not think the Chamberilictitto'oo4
to do, as the Pantheon was not within his ittri9 •405 por
admittimr that his patent was only for a year,
►;O3 invefo
Mon of Lord Thurlow, that the town was ,
and honour to continue it. He would, there° aro',
Committee to inquire into the subject. 1331.' 0/4
Lord. Yarmouth, Lord John Thynne, ith
Mr. J. Calvert, opposed the motion. Id Is'
t sc°"' tl)
Mr. P. MOORE hoped the Hon. Barone ed it 0
his motion. The truth as to the losses sustain
apd.
cern was, that there was so much corapetitio_otrotOW
Theatres, that they were all going fast to 4" 00,
F 1 i
The Motion was accordingly withdrawn. ,ould 000
Sir F. BURDETT gave notice, that he if yisi
bring forward a motion on the subject of N`e. stir
vention. elePer
The Report of the Select committee on 0.1e
00,3 t•
was laid upon the table.--Adjourned until J.

er
001

ices
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5i SP'

41.
MARRIED'. ,ratfersd$1.
114 i
f •
Yesterday, at St. James's Church, Vranci9 Ides'
of Hall's-place, near Maidstone, to Hai riet,
of Henry Martin, Esq. of Sackville-street.

cley
DIED. treet,.
On Sunday last, at his house, Red Von 1; cad°
well, Mr. Adamson formerly of Air-street', 4'celbecl4
(in Saturday last, 'William iiutiloti, Esq• ce. soh
aged 53.
Yesterday, aged 38, Mr. William Guise Ste" et'
StOnapleSunn.
a"Ce"S7(
I Bohn ri
Wakefield,
nday last, at Wakeeld,
ringer of Leeds, Yoi Shetliekt, and Will .t e
.'OO t°l
a few days illness, arising film') an intiaturdl3y
the intestines. His bene'nt was fixed for 1- ,e 0
Leeds- Theat re.

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