The Sun.
London, England, 1820-10-23 00:00:00

MONDAY, OCTOBER 23,.1820.

PARLIAMENT,

HOUSE OF LORDS-SATURDAY.

THE QUEEN'S DEFENCE.

[Continttation of Saturday's Proceedings.]

The following is the conclusion of the Evi-
dence of M. Tomazo Lago Maggiori :
Q. Who did you, come over to this country
with I—A. We are twelve or more. Ido not
know how many of us there are here,
Did you see the Count Vassali before you came
here ?—I saw him at Milan. '

Did he examine you as to the evidence you
were to give at Milan ?-=—No.

Who was it examined you at Milan when you
were examined there ?—The Advocate Cadazzi.
Did he write down what you said did.
Did you swear to the truth of it 1-1 did.
Did Cadazzi make you swear to the truth of
it I—lie did.

liow many times did you swear to the truth of
?—I believe twice.

Then did you tell a different story at two dif-
ferent times ?—No.

Who made you then, having told one story at one

time, and that story being taken down in writing
and sworn to the truth of it, swear again. For
what reason did Cadazzi make you swear to it
again ?-1 have said about twice ?—but if you
ask me so precisely, I cannot tell.
Will you swear that you were not sworn three

times by Cadazzi?—l Cannot say that.
When you say you cannot say that, do you
mean to tell us that you cannot swear that
Cadazzi made you take your oath three times ?
I cannot say precisely the time.
Though you cannot say precisely the time, cau
you not swear whether or not you were sworn
more than twice ?—I cannot swear it, because I
am in doubt.

Who was there at the time you were sworn
in the way you have described ?—An. English
gentleman.
What is his nun...! ?—I do not know.
Was his name Henry ?—I do not know what
name he had.

Was this English gentleman present each time
that you were sworn ?—He was.
How much were you paid the first time you
were sworn ?

Mr. WILD objected 'to this question. As yet
it had not been proved that the witness had been
paid at all.

,Examination resumed.

Q. Were you paid any thing when you were
sworn; and if so, how much the first time you
were sworn ?—A. No.

Do you mean to swear that you were paid no-
thing ?--I had 26 Italian livres. •
Did you have 26 Italian livres given to you the
first time you were sworn ?—No ; on setting out.
On taking your departure to come to this coun-
try, or on setting out from Como to Milan ?—On
setting out from Milan to come here.
Will you swear that you never received any
thing before you set out to come here ?—Nothing.
What have you received since you came here ?
—Nothing.
Will you swear that the only sum you have
received for coming here is the twenty-six Italian
livres of which you have spoken ?—I received
three francs, which were equal to twenty-six
livres each.

Will you swear that you did not receive more ?
—lf they give them to me I take them.
My question is, do you not expect more ?—My
own M ill has brought me here, and if they give it
me, I take it; if they don't give it me, I am sa-
tisfied.

You know that is no answer to my question ?
I cannot say any thing about ii, because I can
not tell the ideas of those ivho bring me here.

Are you married, and have children I—Yes.
Has any thing been paid to them ?—Yes.
How much has been paid to them ?—My wife a
livre, and my children half a livre.
Do you mean a livre a day, when you say your
wife had a livre ?—Yes.

Do you pay your own expences here ?—That
I don't know ; because I have received no more
than what I have said.

What did you mean by saying you should have
two Napoleons a day ?—They fixed upon two
Napoleons ; but I don't know how it may turn
out.

You say " they" fixed upon it. Who do you
mean by " they ?"—Cadazzi.
At any of the times you saw Cadazzi, did you
ever see a man With one eye—a young man ?-4
have not.

_
Was it Cadazzi's secretary that took down
your deposition ?—Cadazzi.
Cadazzi himself, or his secretary ?—himself.
Was there no clerk present, then, when your
deposition was taken ?—None.
Where do you live now ?—ln a house near
town.

How many are there together in that house ?-
I don't know..

- -
How far is it from town ?—Five or six miles

How far is it from the house in which the
Queen now lives ?—I have not been to see where
her Majesty lives.

. Do you all dine together at this house, five or
six miles from town ?—Yes.

And. breakfast together ?—=Altogether.
And talk together ?—All together.
How often have you seen Vassali or Schiavin'
since you have been there ?—Once.

have you seen Sautin Ruggiali there ?—I have.
Are you in the same room together ?—We are.
blow long have you been there ?—About a
fortnight.
Was it not at the request of Ruggiali you came
over to this country ?—No.
Re-examined by Mr. WILD.
Are you locked up iu a garden where you
live ?—No.

Is there a sentinel, at the door ?—There is no
sentinel, but there is a key in every door.
Is the door locked ?—ln the house there is a
key that locks the door, -when we go to bed at
For what expenses were the two Napoleons
allowed ?—For each person they fixed two Na-
poleons.

How many francs are there in each Napoleon ?
We reckon 30 Byres. I cannot say precisely,
but four silver Napoleons make gold Napoleon.
Row much is each silver Napoleon ?—Six livres
and a half of Milan.

How much is each silver Napoleon ?—Six livres
and a half.
Were the Napoleons you spoke of silver ?
Silver.
Are you aware that the Government of this
country knew, that your family had an allowance
made to them before they granted your passport ?
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL objected to the form
of this question, as it was assuming the Govern-
ment made an allowance. The witness ought to
be asked that fact first.

Do you know that Government knew that your
family had this allowance you have spoken of ?
I heard so.

Did Ruggiali sit in the same part,of the boat
that you did ?—Yes.
Where did Bergami sit in the boat ; in what
part ?—For the most part on the right.
And where did the Princess sit ?—On the left.
You have been asked how many times you have
been sworn ; how were you. so sworn—what do
you mean by being sworn ?—Upon the conduct of
her Royal Highness.
What do you mean by the word juramento
I mean what passed at my deposition.
Describe all that passed at that time de-
posed to all things they asked me, and 1 have
said all those things that 1 have seen; and for
that was the oath. _ _

Now describe all you did the first time you
saw Codazzi ?—The deposition was this, that I
have said to what I have seen.

What did you do don't understand you.
What did you do when you took the oath ?
The deposition of those services that I did foi
her Royal ligbness.
Was there any book there, or cross ?—I don't
know.

. . _
Did you kiss any book or cross P—No.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAtf to the -witness.—
When you took the oath did you hold up your
finger or three fingers.
'Mr. WILD objected to this question.
The SoLicuron-G ENERAL.—Kissing a book is
the mode of swearing in this country ; but it does
not follow that it is so at Milan.

Mr. BROUGHAM.—You see, when the witness
is asked what he did, he always gives a long ac-
count of what he said, instead of what he did.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL.—The question I
put, is one strictly arising out of the re-exami-
nation. My Friends put the general question
first, What did you do ?" and finding that
will Dot do, they ask the other cfuestions--" Did
you,kiss a book," and " Did you kiss a cross ?"
Now, if they were allowed to put these ques-
tions to their own witness, surely I may be al-
lowed to ask, in cross-examination, whether the
witness held up three fingers at the time of his
deposition.
The LORD CHANCELLOR.--I understand Mr.
Brougham does not now hold up his hand against
your holding up your three fingers, Mr. Solicitor
General.

The question was now repeated to the witness

The 17V ithess.—No,

Mr. BROUGHAN.—My Lords, I object to this;
the Interpreter, after the man has said 46 no,"
interrupts him by saying something further.
The SoLiclrou-GENIaAL.—It was quite oh-
vious that the witness NI as desirous of saying

something more..
The LORD CHANCELLOR.—Put the question
again, 'and let the Interpreter not begin to give
the answer until the witness has finished.
The question was again put.—He told me to
swear to tell the truth, but I Made no sign.
When he told him to swear to. tell the truth,
what. did the witness say ?
•Mr. BnouonAm.—ls my Learned Friend to go
on with the cross-examination ?
The LORD CHANCELLOR.—You may 'apply to
the House to put this question bye and bye.
. Mr. BttouoHAm.—We have no objection that
it should be put. now.
•
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL apprehended the
time to put the • question, was, before the Peers
commenced their examination.
Earl GREY .thought the question should• be
put after.the Peers had finished their examination.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL humbly submitted
that this was the period for continuing his cross-
examination.
Mr. DEsal.,t.N objected to the House being lec-
tured.
The LORD CHANcv,Loit said, the House was
not to be lectured by Counsel at the Bar.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL could not mean to
lectuie the House, and was only desirous of

CPRIGt SEVENPENCE.

adopting the course usual on the examination of
witnesses.

The LORD CHANCELLOR thought, that as no
objection was made to the question, it might be
put now.—The question was put accordingly.
When you were told to swear the truth, what
did you say ?—They, said, you are to tell the
truth.

Examined by the PEERS.
By Earl GaLy—Q. Did you ever take an oath
before any tribunal at any time ?—A. No.
By Lord ELLENBOROUGH—Did the rowers in
this boat sit or stand ?—They stood.
Were not their faces towards the head of the
boat ?—Towards the head.

How many were there before the carriage you
have described ?—Six.

How many behind ?—Four.
What oar did you pull, counting from the head
of the boat I—The nearest to the carriage.
I want to know what oar you pulled, counting
from the begd of the boat 1-1 pulled thatliearest
the. carriage behind, nearest to the Princess.
What oar did Ruggiali pull I—Two oars be-
hind me.

Ain I to understand Ruggiali pulled the third
.TOlll the steru ?—Yes.

Did the witness pull the fourth ?—The fourth
oar from the stern.

By Lord LAUDERDALE—Has the witness of,
late years had any defect in his eyes ?—About
two years ago I have been ill.
During the twenty times the witness rowed
the Princess, did he always pull the same oar
Mr. BROUGII.4.3I—This" is assuming that the
witness has said twenty times.
The LORD
.CHANCELLOR.---YOU may use his
own words.

Did you, upon all occasions, row iti.the same
position with regard to Ruggiali ?—The same

place.
Can the witness say that Ruggiali never rowed.
the Princess when he was not there cannot
say I was there every time.
Lord CATitcAnT.--The witness has stated that
his situation was nearest her Royal Highness, IC
wish to know, could he see over the awning of
the carriage could not.
How high did it come ?—Equal to my head.
The Chevalier VAssAr,t sworn, and examined by

Mr. DEN M AN.

Q. From whence do you come ?—A.
Do you understand English=?--A little.
What is your ➢rofession ?—I am Equerry to the
Queen of England.
Have you auy other profession ?—None.
Have )ou been in any other I—None, except
being in the army.
What rank did you hold ?—I was Captain in
the late disbanded regiment of Royal Dragoons,
in the Italian army.

Where did you first become acquainted with her
Royal Highness ?—At Durand, at the house of
General Pino.

Did you have the honour of seeing her Royal
s at Milan, or Gen. Piilo at Milan ?—Yes.
Did you dine there ?—Yes.
In what year was that ?—ln 1816 or 1817.
DC) you know Hergami know him.
Was he there ?—Yes.
Did he diiie with General Pino?-14 did.
Did her Royal Highness invite the witness to
accompany her on any journey ?—Yes.
What journey ?---From Milan to Turin.
Did he accompany her ?—Yes.
Before she set out on that journey, did her
Royal Highness employ 'the witness in any ca-
pacity ?—I set out from Milan, and performed
the office of Secretary.
How long did you remain in the service ?
Till her }loyal Highness went to Caprani.
What year ?—I believe 181 S.
Recollect yourself ?—I think it was 1818 ;
but do not remember precisely.
Did you enter her Royal Highness's service
subsequently.?---Yes.
In what capacity ?---As Ecquerry.
Has he continued in that service ever since ? Yes.
Has Bergami been in her Royal Highness's
service all this timel—Yes.
In what employment I—As Chamberbkin;
Had Bergami any thing to do with the luzuse-
hold I—He had the regulation of the house.

Was it his duty to hire and distniss the ser-
vants ?—I believe it was hi's duty►
Have you seen her Royal Highness and Ber-
gami walking together at any time 1-1 have.
Did you ever.see them walking together alone
—Sometimes in the garden, and under the
portico, .
Have you seen them riding out together
have seen them in a carriage with others.
Did you ever s*ee them walking or riding toge-

ther. without attendantS, except iu the garden or
about the house ?—I have said that I have seen

them walking tOgether alone, in the garden and
under the portico ; but when I said they were
alone I was wrong; they were not alone; for
when I was looking at them, I cayself'was within
a little distance o(them.
Do yon know whether Bergami was received
at the tables of the neighbouring families of dis-
tinction ?—.of what neighbourhood ?.
Of .the neighbourhood of Pesaro ?-7Yesr
Were you with .her. Royal Highness' at Mu..
rich • . ,
Do you remember if her Royal Highness dined
with her suite with the King of Bavaria ?-7i-Yes,
Do you know if Bergaini dined at the table of
the King?—Yes.
Did he dine with the dinediat the
:table with the King. •