The Sun.
London, England, 1845-03-07 00:00:00

NOTICES OF MOTION.

Mr. BLEWITT gave notice that on an early day,
after Easter, he should move for leave to bring in a Bill
to repeal the several Acts of Parliament which pro-
hibited the growth and curing of tobacco in Great
Britain and Irelamd.

Mr. GISBORNE gave notice that he should, on an
early, day call the attention of the House to the subject of
the powers of the Board of Trade with respect to
railways.

CONDITION OF THE LABOURING POOR.
Mr. BORTH WICK, seeing the Noble Lord, the
Member for London, in his place, would beg leave to
ask him a question. In the last session of Parliament,
the Noble Lord called the attention of the House to the
distressed condition of the labouring population. Since
then he (Mr. Borthwick) had had many communica-
tions from most districts upon the subject; and, there-
tore, he would wish to know whether it was the inten-
tion of the Noble Lord to bring the subject before the
House this session ?

Lord J. RUSSELL begged to say, in answer to the
Hon. ana Learned Member, that it was his intention to
bring the subject forward, with a view to prop )sing some
legislative measure upon it, shortly after Eater.
CIVIL DISABILITIES OF THE JEWS.

Mr. TRELAWNY,sceing the Right llon. Baronet
the First Lord of the Treasury in his place, begged to
give notice that he would to-morrow ask the Right
lion. Baronet whether it was the intention of her Ma-
jesty's Government to introduce, this session, any mea-
sure providing fur the removal of the civil disabilities of
the Jews.

Sir ROBERT PEEL begged to say, in answer to the
Hon. Member's question, though the Hon. Member had
said he would not put it until to-morrow, that her Ma-
jesty's Government did hope, at a very early period of the
session, to bring forward a Bill for the removal of the
civil disabilities of the Jews, at least so far as municipal
and corporate disabilities ex tended.—([lsar, hear.)
SUGAR DUTIES.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
in answer to a question from the Noble Lord, the
Member for London, that with respect to the sugar
duties and property-tax questions, he was anxious to
make such arrangements for the discussions upon them
as would be most convenient to the Home. lie was
willing that the discussion upon either of these ques-
tions should be ta!:en to -morrow, upon the report,
or upon the third reading on Monday.
Mr. L ABOUCHERE wished to know if he correctly
understood the Right Hon. Gentleman, in stating that ft
was not the intention of her Majesty's Government to
make any alteration in the classification of the sugar
duties this session
_2

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied
in the affirmative ; and, in answer to the question of Lord
John Russell, he begged to say that he would now defi-
nitively fix Monday next for the discussion on the sugar
duties.

DUTY ON COALS.
The CHANCELLOR, of the EXCHEQUER, in
answer to a
.question from Lord llowiek, said
apnrxoip(o)usitronbfroirngthe remission of the export
heon, at as early * period as
duty on coals.
possible,'vas mustth e

SUGAR DUTIES.
The CHANCEI4I,OIt of the EXCHEQUER, in
answer to a question from Dr. Bowaisu, said it was
not the intention of her Majesty's Government to make
any substantial changes with regard to the duties on

sugar.
Sir R. PEEL was understood to say that, as there
were a great number of articles upon which the duty was
to be taken off, and about which there was no substan-
tial difference of opinion, it would be desirable that a
selection of such articles should be made, and the ques-
tion with regard to them fettled.—(Hear, hear.)
POOR LAWS (IRELAND).
In answer to a question by Mr. BELLEW, on the
subject of poor-law unions in Ireland, and the debts to
which some of them were subject,
Sir J. GRAHAM said that the report on the subject
was not yet prepared ; but as soon as it was ready it
would be laid on the table, together with the Treasury
minute with regard to it.
MUSEUMS OF ART.
Mr. EWART said that he rose for the purpose of
moving for leave to bring in a Bill to enable town
councils to establish museums of art in corporate towns.
The merit of the measure was almost entirely due to the
Hon. Member for Taunton, who had acted with him on
the Committee which sat upon the subject. That Com-
mittee recommended the stnblishment of schools of de-
signiand, first of all, it recommended the establishmentof
a central school in the metropolis. It also recommended
the establishment of schools in the various manufacturing
towns in connexion with the central school. Only one
thing was wanted now, and that was, that the central
school should be devoted rather to the purposes
of a normal school for making masters, than
for the purpose of elementary education in art.
That was the original design of the school, as his Right
Hon. Friend the Member for Oxford, to whom the
country was greatly indebted for his exertions with
regard to this subject, would well remember. But
that design had not been fully carried out. As
yet, the central school in London was not
a normal school of art, but he trusted that
they were making advances towards that more
perfect system which existed in foreign coun-
tries. Another recommendation of the Committee was,
that exhibitions or galleries of art should be established
in the various manufacturing and other large towns
of the country. It was not intended that those
exhibitions should be limited to the temporary
purposes of mere ephemeral exhibitions.—(Hear, hear.)
The Committee were anxious that those mu-
seums should contain specimens of antique art, of me-
dieval art, and of modern art. That recommendation
had not been carried into effect ; and it was
to remedy this omission that the present Bill
was proposed. The Committee had hoped that the Go-
vernment would have assisted, if not by the formation,
at least by its co-operation with those who were
willing to form these provincial museums, by
obtaining perfect casts of the best specimens
of antique and modern works, and distributing
them to the various manufacturing towns, to be deposited
in their museums. In London such a gallery had been
established, but it was by no means perfect. He under-
stood it would be necessary to procure for that gallery
new casts of the various works of antiquity. But
the object of the present measure was to diffuse
these various specimens of art throughout the country ;
them
councils
os
to send them to the museums of Manchester, of Glasgow,
passto defray the
this Bill in
of Birmingham, of Coventry, and of all the large menu-
ofacrdteurrintgo towns lie e askedtown h
ne
enable
h expenses necessary for these museums by the im-
position of a small borough rate, so as to admit the po-
pulation upon the easiest possible terms. Many per-
sons were ready to aid in the formation of
tthese museums, either by the subscription of
money, or by presenting them
,with works of art.
It was to encourage these exertions that he ventured to
propose the present measure to Parliament. There were
peculiar circumstances at the present time which allowed
a facility for the diffusion of works of art throughout the
country which had never been enjoyed in times past.
By means of their railways they could send casts
of improved specimens of works of art to the
different manufacturing towns, and it would be
the fault of the Government if there was a single
manufacturing or large, town in the country deficient
of a museum of ssich a character, as might give
a sound taste in art to the population of that town, and
thus enable them to apply the skill they would obtain in
the arts to manufactures. He trusted, therefore, that
they should see before long the system of schools of
design perfected throughout the country, and that the
central school in. the metropolis would become what the
Committee revommended it should be. It was well
known that, till the Romans had such an abundance
of statues iu Rowe that th wind of the people was

improved through the eye, they never became aware of
the value of the arts ; and it was the same with the
people of this country. It had be, n said that England
wouid not mal,e toy great alvancc's in the art-,
because it NY::S a c,,matercia! nati n ; hut : e
believed, it they a& 'wed th,r rec )mrnendation
of.the Committee, that, I;ke Venice, the large manufac-
turing to mns of this country wo;ild be quite capable of
appreciating the value of the fine arts. With this view he
called on the Government to assist in pr(rro•ing this
o`iject, and to wipe away the stain that hung upon
the artistic reputation of the country.—(llear, hear.)
Ile had now shortly stated the principle of the subject
he intended to bring before the House. He did nt,t
think it necessary further to diate upon it, but would
conclude by moving for leave to bring in a Bill to enable
town councils to establish museums of art in corporate
t wns. _

Mr. WYSE seconded the motion. Every day's expe-
rience showed the necessity for diffusing education not
only in great towns but in the provinces. Establish-
ments had been formed in many principal towns, and
the best effects had been produced. Taste. however,
for art, was not sufficiently diffused in the country.
Many of the schools of design had not the means of
availing themselves of the contributions in books or in
works of art which might be given them, by reason of
their having no place sufficiently extensive to receive
them. Without granting the power to town councils to
raise such a fund, how could they expect to create
a taste for the arts in this country, for
they knew how littl,! guarantee to the success
of an institution arose from the exertions of private in-
dividuals. They were aware that there were institu-
tions to which individuals were willing to contribute
works of art, valuable books or specimens of natural
history, but from the circumstance of there befit.- no
building in the locality capable of }lidding them,
those who would have so contributed were obliged to
retain, on their own premises, those articles which they
would otherwise have given to the public, and thus an
impediment was created to the advance of the fine arts in
this country. Ile was anxious with his Hon. Friend to
provide a remedy for this evil, and he had some
years ago introduced a Bill for a similar purpose. He
did not expect any opposition to the introduction of
this Bill, and he would defer any remarks of his to a
future stage. He would second, with great pleasure,
the motion of his Hon. Friend.
Sir W. JAMES thought the motion was highly
worthy the attention of the House. lie was gratified
to state that an Honourable Friend behind him had
given to an institution at Hull a large collection of
classical casts, and that their value was appre-
ciated. With respect to corporations, as re-
modelled by the Municipal Reform Bill, he was
glad to see that they were becoming anxious to pos-
sess colections of works of art. But be remembered
that when they were first reformed, most valuable works
of art, s.ane of them the pictures of Sir Joshua Reynolds,
and others of high eminence, which had been presented
to the old corporations, and also antique plate,
which had been, in some instances, in possession
of the old corporations since the time of Elizabeth,
were disgracefully brought to the hammer, and
sold by auction. He was happy to see symptoms of a
better taste, and, if the improvement went on, perhaps
the reformed corporations would send their children to
classical schools, where they would become acquainted
with the old verse—
" Ingenues didicisse fideliter artes
Emollit mores, nec sinitesse feros."
—(A laugh.) And perhaps in course of time they would
recover the reputation for hospitality of which the old
corporations used to be proud.—(Hear, and a laugh.)
He could only say that he thought the country was much
indebted to the Hon. Member for Dumfries for the trouble
he had taken on this subject.
Mr. MARK PHILIPS thought it was of the utmost
importance that a taste for literature and the arts should
be encouraged in the rising generation ; and he thought
some such proposition as that which had been made by his
Hon. Friend should be adopted by the House. He
(Mr. M. Philips) hoped that his lion. Friend would
give sufficient time for discussion of the merits of this
Bill in the country, to prevent any hasty expression of
opinion upon that which was intrinsically good in itself.
He had great pleasure in supporting the introduction of
this Bill. lie hoped that, when the Bill would be carried
into operation in large towns, the museums would be
opened at such hours and under such regulations as
would be advantageous to the working classes.
Mr. HUME said he had no doubt of the justice of
the motion of his Hon. Friend, and only wished that it
would be enlarged, in order to give power to the councils
not only to provide museums, but places of recreation for
the people play-grounds and public walks. The
greatest desire existed among the lower classes to take
advantage of the exhibition of works of art, and he believed
that every Host. M-mber would bear testimony to the
propriety with which the humbler classes conducted
themselves in these exhibitiens.---(Hear, hear.)
Some years ago Mr. Buckingham had introduced
a Bill which comprehended the provisions of that
which the Hon. Member was about to introduce, and a
great deal more. Ministers should lend all the in-
fluence they possessed for the establishment of
such institutions. They occupied the minds of the
people, refined their taste, and prevented
them from - being engaged in bad projects.
He submitted it was a subject well worthy of the atten-
tion of the Government, and he was sure, if they would
only consent to adopt it, the step would do theta
mere honour than any other measure they could bring
forward.
Mr. BERN AL said the manner in which the Hon.
Member for Dumfries had brought forward the subject
did him great credit; but he trussed the Honourable
Member would not dovetail his plan, but con-
fine himself to one proposition. He thought it
was highly gratifying that, so far as they could
learn the outrages which had been committed in public
museums were not perpetrated by any of the labouring
classes of the country. No operative that he was aware of
had been convicted of anoffence of this nature, but he be-
lieved the outrages which had been committed were per-
petrated by persons moving in a superior walk of life.
This was the only capital in Europe, he believed, that
was without a museum of art, and when they saw what
was done in a neighbouring country, and the impulse
that had been given to a love of the fine arts by the
King of the French, he thought that they should stir
themselves to form a museum of art in this
metropolis which would be worthy of the
English nation.—(Hear.) Many of the works of art
of the middle ages were going to decay, and he would
implore the Right Hon. Baronet to direct his attention to it,
for the purpose of finding some means to preserve them.
Sir R. PEEL said that the subject of which the Hon.
Gentleman had alluded, ha I not altogether escaped his
attention. But many suggestions of a similar kind
were made, such of which, individually consid:red, was
worthy of public favour, and of those suggestions he
could only select such as appeared to be most im-
portant. They had turned their attention to the im-
provement of the geological museum, and he hoped
that they would be enabled, in the course of the present
session, to make some proposal for the purpose
of promoting greater access to this improved geological
museum. Ile concurred with the Hon. Gentleman in
the great advantage which would result from the encou-
raging and promoting a love of art ; but he advised the
House to be cautious in giving extensive power of taxa-
tion to municipal bodies.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon.
Gentleman was anxious to see a museum of art. An •
other Hon. Member wished to give municipal bodies
powers of taxation, for the purpose of purchasing places
of recreation; and there was another object, perhaps of
more importance than either, for which local taxes
should be levied—namely, the ventilation and the im-
proving of the salubrity of towns. But they ought to be
cautious, lest they should make the taxes for those pur-
poses too expensive ;'and thereby create a prejudice
against those objects, which they thought so necessary.
—([fear, hear.) He would advise the Hon. Gentleman,
therefore, to limit himself to his own particular plan,
and not to incorporate other. purposes with it. There
was a great disposition amongst those who psospered by
manufacturers to remember the obligations which they
owed to those through whom they derived their wealth,
and to contribute largely to the purposes of art.—(Hear.)
Re hoped they would take care not to check this dispo-
sition to contribute, by making it a subject of local
taxation. At any rate, he hoped that these town
councils would think it preferable to try to raise as large
a sum as possible by voluntary contribution. He believed
if towu councils should vote large sums for the purpose
of establishing museums of this kind, providing the
buildings and purchasing the objects for exhibition, they
would in many cases throw the public money away.
But, if the town councils would call on the affluent con-
nected with the place to contribute a certain specific sum
for the purpose of establishing these museums, stating
that, when established, they would undertake, by an
annual rate, to provide for the permanent charges of
the superintendence., they wou'd by that means induce
many to contribute for this purpose. In the case of
building, churches, it had been found that many
persons would advance a certain sum of money
over which they would have some control, who
would not consent to burden their property for
that purpose. Where the authorities had said,
" If you will provide the edifice, we will guarantee
a permanent endowment for it," it was gratifying to
observe how willingly assistance was given. He be-
lieved town councils would find many persons, in places
where manufactu'res were prosperous, who would be
willing to make presents of objects of art, or of large
sums of money to be paid at once, if they were assured
that a museum would be permanently provided. He.hoped
the Hon. Gentleman would consider this suggestion,
and that if he gave town councils any power to raise
money at all, it would be made subservient to private
contributions.
Lord J. MANNERS said he should be happy to see
the proposition of the Hon. Member carried into effect.
If the Hon. Member for Montrose would renew his Bill
he should be happy to support it. There was a growing
desire on the part of the people to provide means of
public recreation. He had the pleasure and gratification
of living in a large house where there were many works
of art ; he had witnessed persons going there who were
delighted with what they saw, but he had never heard of
a single instance of any of those works being injured by
the visitors there. He could not sit down without offer-
ing his praises to her Majesty's Government for the care
they had taken of works of art, and fur their restoration,
particularly in Glasgow and Elgin.
Mr. BROTH ERTON thought it most important in
large communities that something should be done, not
only to improve the public taste, but the m n.als of the
people. Schools of design were not sufficient, museums
were necessary, and if established he would. venture
to say they would act as a sort of moral
police. In the great town of Manchester a
aeons
of of a halfpenny in the pound would enable
in rti
to erect a building that would cost 50,000/., and in that
building might be placed works that would greatly con-
tribute to the delight, the improvement, and the educa-
tion of the people. In the town of Manchester alone, so
well did the people appreciate the value of such institu-
tions, that they had collected about 30,0001 towards

making a public park, and he was happy to say that the
Bight Honourable Baronet opposi e had contributed the
munificent sum of 1,000/. towards this perk.—(Great
cheering.) Pout public parks could not be enjoyed
b:. the people at all seasons of the year, particu-
larly in an uncertain climate like this, and there-
fore the greater necessity for public measure-, for
they would not only have the effect of elevating
the minds and improving the morals of the lower classes,
but they would also eventually withdraw them from the
public house, where they now too ften spent their earn-
ings in dissipation, and convert them at length into a
sort of moral police for the prevention of many crimes.—
(Hear, hear.) Besides, when once these amusements
were established, they would he sure to receive contribu-
tions from gentlemen who could not heretofore entrust
their property to the old corporations, for those bodies
had no object but their own gratification in feasting.—
(Hear, hear.) He had great pleasure in supporting the
proposition. He thought it would elevate the minds of •
the people, and raise science to a still higher position
than it at present enjoyed.
Mr. HUTT highly approved of the measure, and ob-
served that nothing could be more successful than the
schools of design. Schools of design had been opened in
Newcastle, Sheffield, and Birmingham, which had been
attended with the greatest advantage, and works had
been produced by them which were objects of admira-
tion in every capital in Europe. Englishmen ought to
be as renowned for works of taste as they were for suc-
cess in commerce and manufacture, and nothing could
more effectually raise the minds of the people from gro,s
and sensual pursuits than such pursuits.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said there was so little diversity
of sentiment on this subject, that he did not think it
would be necessary for him to trouble the House at any
length. lie would, however, express his hearty concur-
rence in the views of the Hon. Member for Dumfries,
and his hope that his wishes would be realised. The
country was indebted for the establishment of schools of
design to his lamented friend, the late Lord Sidmouth.
Those who live in the principal seats of manufacture
ought to have an opportunity of improving their taste by
the exhibition of the best works of art. Sir Francis
Chantrey had assured him that it was from the fact of
these classic models being continually before his eyes that
he wa3 induccd to turn his mind seriously towards
the fine arts as a profession. In the large towns every
stranger, on visiting them, must be agreeably struck
with the feelings of pride and pleasure with which the
citizens regarded any work of art they happen to pos-
sess. He did not share in the fears the Right Hon.
Baronet seemed to entertain that the councils would
spend any of the money entrusted to them for these pur-
poses wantonly. Let Aim consider the benefits France

had derived from the establishment of schools of de-
sign, and from the exhibition of works of merit, and
the superior skill and perfection she had thereby ar-
rived at in some kinds of manufactures. The question
was of national importance, and he was glad to see so
much unanimity in the House on the subject.
Mr. SHEIL hoped one of the provisions of the Bill
would be to enable the working classes to visit museums
on Sundays. That was the only day they could attend
such places. Surely it could not be said that so harm-
less a recreation was a desecration of the Sabbath ?

Leave was then given to bring in the Bill ; Mr.
Ewart and Mr. Wyse to prepare it.
PRISONER'S COUNSEL BILL.
Mr. EWART moved fur leave to bring in a "Bill
enabling the defendant's counsel in civil, and the pri-
soner's counsel in criminal cases, to address the jury on
the close of the evidence for the prisoner or defendant."
The most eminent lawyers in Westminster Hall were of
opinion that a change in the present system was neces-
sary, and it was with the concurrence of many of them
that he brought it forward. The present hardship was,
that the defendant or prisoner called witnesses, two
speeches would be made for the plaintiff or prosecutor,
and only one for the defendant or prisoner. This, espe-
cially in criminal cases, was a gross injustice, and many
counsel, sooner than subject themselves to a reply from
the prosecuting counsel, forbore to call any witnesses.
Another hardship was, that if witnesses were called
for the defence, and their testimony did not, in any
respect, confirm the statement of the defendant's counsel,
an unfavourable and unjust impression might be made on
the Court and jury, and the defendant's counsel had no
opportunity of reconciling little inconsistencies, and ex-
plaining trifling misunderstandings, which might be
productive of the greatest disadvantage to the accused.
Again, different modes of practice prevailed on this
matter, and it would be desirable to estsblish uniformity.
In the Sessions Court in Scotland, in the Committees of
that House, and other places, the defendant's counsel
had the right of reply, which he thought was but just
and reasonable. He did not move to ask for leave to
bring in a Bill, but only requested that the House and
the Government would devote its attention to the subject.
Mr. HUME seconded the motion.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL could not say he ap-
proved of such a measure as that contemplated by the
Hon. Member, although at the sane time he agreed in
many of liTs observations. He felt the difficulty in
which the prisoner often stood, but at the same time he did
not think that any serious evil accrued from the present
system. The Hon. Gentleman had alluded to the system
in Parliamentary Committees and elsewhere, of hearing
the speeches of defendant's counsel, but that system was
felt to be so inconvenient that they were about aban-
doning it, and adopting the same plan as existed in
Westminster Hall.—(Hear, hear.) The Honourable
Gentleman had not brought in a motion for a
Bill, but had moved for an inquiry. He (the Attorney-
General) thought the better course would be for his
Hon. and Learned Friend to refer this inquiry to the
Commissioners who were already appointed for inquiring
into the working of the criminal law. On the list of
that Commission he would find the names of gentlemen
who were men of great experience, and whose decision
was, in his (the Attorney-General's) opinion, very likely
to be satisfactory to the country. They were inquiring
not only into the principles, but also into the details of
the effect of this alteration in the practices of the supe
rior courts at Westminster. The inquiry of his Hon.
and Learned Friend was, in fact, a portion of the duty
of that Commission ; but if, after their decision, he was
still anxious for further elucidation, he (the Attorney-
Genet al) was sure that the Government would have no
objection to the inquiry.
Mr. HUME, said that after what had fallen from the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman opposite, he must say
that nothing could be more proper, or more wise, or
better, and he would advise his Hon. Friend to withdraw
his motion, and leave the matter in the hands of the
Government. _ _

Mr. EWART said that, under the circumstances, he
fully saw the propriety of acceding to his Hon. and
Learned Friend. He was satisfied that the matter could
not be in better bands ; and he should, therefore, under
the advice of his Hon. Friend, beg leave to withdraw his
motion.

The motion was then withdrawn.
SALE OF lIAFOD ESTATE.
Mr. HUME said, that in the absence of his Hon.
Friend the Member for Coventry, he would beg to
make the motion of which he had given notice. In do-
ing so, however, he did not feel it his duty to say a single
word, and he should simply put the motion in order to give
the Noble Lord at the head of the Woods and Forests
an opportunity of making a statement of the facts to
which the motion referred. He then, for the Member
of Coventry, moved for copies of all surveys and valua-
tions of 7,438 acres 36 roods of land belonging to the
Crown, adjoining to the Duke of Newctsstle's Hated
estate, in Cardiganshire, which has been sold to his
Grace by private contract for 1,049/ 15s. 6d., by her
Majesty's Commissioners of Woods, Forests, and Land
Revenues, as stated in Appendix, No. 2 (A), in the said
Commissioners' report fur 1844 ; and also copies of all
correspondence relating thereto.
The Earl of LINCOLN said that he did not shrink
from meeting the motion of which the lion. Member fur
Coventry had given notice ; and he only thought it both
unfair and improper not personally to put a notice of
this nature before the House, and be there present to
supportit. The House mu t be aware that it was evi •
dently intended to cast a slur upon him—to throw a sus-
picion around his proceedings—and extend that suspi-
cion to the Government of which he was a member.
He should just make these preliminary observations, be-
cause he felt that, as a public servant, there ought
to be no suspicion resting upon him. And he
said this, not only in justification of his own feelings as
such public servant, but also out of respect to the Go-
vernment of which he formed a part. It had been sup-
posed that the transaction to which the motion of the
Hon. Gentleman referred was a contract between him-
' self (the Earl of Lincoln) and his father, the Duke of
Newcastle. That was not the case. The estate of Hafod
had been in the possession of Colonel Johns, and upon it
certain claims had been made by the Crown, which the
Colonel, and subsequently his devisee, refused to admit.
The estate had been put up for sale by both these parties,
and, in order to clear the tile, and make the estate mare
marketable, it had been valued by two gentlemen—Mr.
Morgan on the part of the Crown, and by Mr. Adam
Murray, on the part of Colonel Johns and his de-
visees. These circumstances occurred in 1832. when
Lord Duncannon was at the head of the Woods
and Forests, and they were a c aissqueriee
the proceedings of the devisees of Colonel J.l,lThs,
with which the Duke of Newcastle need not and had
not hal anything to do. The Duke's purchase of the
estate was a subsequent transaction; he did not buy it
at the auction at all. Mr. Morgan stated that the extent
of the property was 8,061 aeres, and that the value of it
was I,o9Bl.—,Laughter) This might s'. em very extra-
ordinary to some Gentlemen opposite, but he believed he
should be able very briefly to explain it. The House
was aware that no property of the Crown could be dis-
posed of except under the valuation of an accredited
surveyor, upon oath.—(Hear, bear.) That valuation
had been made and stated upon oatb, and Mr. Morgan 's
valuation was 1,0981., %%Jule that of Mr. Murray waas
632/.—(Hear, hear.) The fact was, in order to makethe
sale of the estate at all, it was necessary to
ascertaine
extent of the rights of the Crown, :val. C
of the estate, yet cons
to any portion
his devisees, though they denied the riFidheotroeoaf raoawna
matter of prudence, it was bettt_eeractoripgukrtsausentdhemaciotuerasne
they had taken, than contest ho
unclear sale. This valuation was made under the
authority. of Lord Duncannon and Sir B. Stephenson
as the tii gods and
and Ftokreeshuse would
wasld
s
Forests. li
ready
aee by the survey made under it, that the extent of the
Cd
yo mt
nm i
producess ioner s
that of
authority;
ds
land' was, as he had stated, 8,061 acres. The house was
also probably aware that in order to convey an estate in
which the Crown had any rate, there must be a warrant
of the Treasury. He was ready to produce this warrant,
signed by Lord Nugent, Sir John Ponsonby, and Mr. F.
Baring, Lords of the Treasury for the time being.
In one of the conditions of sale of the Hafod estate, it
was stated that the Crown laid claim to a part of the
waste lands, but that the right of the Crown had been
purchased, and the venders stipulated no objection should
be taken by the purchaser in consequence of the claims
of the Crown to any rights of common over these
estates. It was not universal for sales to be advertised
and the warrants to be issued afterwards. They found
that the warrant, in this instance, was dated Sept, 29th,

1832, and the sale advertised on Sept. 16th, 1833. The
sale was by Mr. George Robins, and as he had stated
his father, the Duke of Newcastle, did not buy at the
sale, but after it. When the conveyance came to be
made out, it was ascertained that there was no koundery
line, and upon a more accurate survey of the estate, it
was found that instead of there being 8,061 acres there
were only 7,438 acres. On this, the Duke of NeWcastle
demanded an abatement, and the Woods and Forests
allowed 62/. This made the purchase money 738/. This
took p'ne.e in 1833. The Ilouse would wish to know.how
the diff:rence arose when he said the purchase money was
7351., and the actual amount received 1,049/. The ease
was, that in conseeence of those boundary lines being
in an unsettled state, a period of ten years had elapsed
between the contract and the completion of the purchase.
The Duke of Newcastle (his father) had denied, just as
urgently as Colonel Johns had done, any right of the
Crown at all, and whilst the business was in abeyance
he (the Earl of Linco'n) had thought it necessary to
place all the proceedings in this transaction entirely
above suspicion, and he had aecordingly charged his
Noble Father interest at the rate of four per cent. This
amounted to 3111. 15s. 9d., and this, with the peineipal
sum, made up the whole amount of the purchase-money
handed into the Excliever.—(Hear, hear.) This the
Duke thought very hard, and perhaps it might be called
sharp practice, for the Crown had not a right to build a
tenement or plant an oak on the estate. The Crown
was lord of the manor, but Colonel Johns had gradually
driven off all the small freeholders and pcitsessed himself
entirely of the rights of common for more than 20 years.
And though he knew it required sixty years to bar the
rights of the Crown, yet so worthless are these rights in
the event of the inclosure of more than 7,000 acres, the
Crown could claim rent fur only one-twentieth part of it.
If the House were at all dis:atisfied with his statement

—(Cheers from all parts of the House)—he was ready
to produce every letter and document that had passed in
every stage of the tranaaction ; but the business bad
been in hand more than twenty years, and ha was in-
formed, on application at the office of Woods and Forests.
that as many letters as two and three a week often passed.
concerning it. The papers were consequently exceed-
ingly voluminous, and he believed would, if printed, fill
one of those large blue books. A desire to save expense
to the country—(Hear, hear)—was his only reason for
withholding them. But if there was the slightest doubt,
he was ready to produce the valuations, all the docu-
wnts. the contract, the papers, the conveyances, and'all
the correspondence that had passed respecting it. He
trusted, therefore, that the Hon. Member for 'Coventry
would be perfectly satisfied, and if he were so, that ho
would come down to that House and state, in a full,
fair, and an honourable manner, that his suspicions had
been entirely and completely removed.— (Cheers.)
Mr. HUME said that the explanation of the Noble
Lord must remove every shadow of suspicion from the
minds of Hon. Members with regard to this transaction.
After the itatements be had made, and the documents
he had read, it was impos..ible that any Hon. Member
could entertain any opinion otherwise than that it was
quite a regular and natural proceeding, and therefore,
if allowed, he would withdraw the motion, and he
would also say for himself, that the Noble Lord had
exculpated himself from any charge, in the fullest., the.
fairest, and the most satisfactory manner.
After a few words from Mr. SHAW,
The Earl of LINCOLN begged to tender his sincere
thanks to the lion. Member for Montrose, for )he fair
and handsome manner in which he had expressed him-
self. He thanked the Hon. Member most sincerely ; but
at the same time he hoped that the House would allow
him, in justice to himself and to his family, to produce
the papers relating to this subject. He hoped, therefor 6,
that the motion would stand, merely leaving out the
word " correspondence."
Mr. HUME said that he should willingly concur in
any course required by the Noble Lord, and therefore
he begged to leave out the word " correspondence" in
the motion he had just laid before the House.