Star.
London, England, 1808-02-12 00:00:00

Orders in •C(
then
as anxious as
conduct of
rice, should
he should, therefore, . oppose
Lord AUCKLAND wished to know,
--_---
was the intention- of the Noble Baron to let him go to
a Committee on Monday, as by that he would regu-
late his manner of opening the discussion. He also
wished to be informed, whether Ministers intended to
•explain the systkin founded upon the Orders in
Council?
Lord HAWKESBURY•observed, that he did not
see the necessity for gain,g to a Committee. With
respect *th
,e Orders Council, the mode of pro-
ceeding Vkich the Government intended to have
adopted was this : as these Orders required the sanc-
tion of Parliatpent, it was intended that the proceed-
s respecting them should originate in another
place. When they should appearbefore that House
in the form of a bill, Ministers would then explain the
principles upon which they were founded, the neces-
sity which had given rise to them, and the effects
which they expected from them. This order having
been deranged by the impatience of the Noble Lords
on the other side, who could not wait for the regular
course of Parliamentary proceedings, hut would force
them into premature discussion, Ministers could do
"nothing more than repel whatever objections might
be offered to their system. • .
Lord GRENVILLE conceived it to be the duty
of Ministers to offereoMe explanation of the Qrdors
in
.Council, which were perfectly unintelligible so him and
every person of common understanding with iahoin
Ihe had conversed.
The LORD CHANCELLOR. thought it very
II extraordinary that the Noble Baron should declare
that he • could not comprehend the Orders in Como il,
and at the same time pronounced that they were im-
politic and illegal.
After some farther conversation between Lords
,Aummaso, HOLLAND, LAUDERDALE, and the Loup
Cum.:m.lAß, the question on Lord Grenville's mo-
tion was put and agreed to.
MEDIATION.
Lord GREY said, that of the two subjects on which
he proposed to address their Lordships, it was his in-
tention to bring one only under their consideration at
present. The Motion which he intended to make re-
specting the expedition to Constantinople and Alex-
andria, he felt himself under the necessity •of postpo-
ning, on account of the want of some papers which
were necessary for the consideration of these transac-
tions. The subject, therefore, upon which he would
have to trouble their Lordships was, the-offers of me-
diation by Austria and Russia. Preparatory to
a specific motion on that subject, be would move for
various documents, tending to explain the nature of
the proposals made by these Courts, and the manner
is Alsich they had been received by his Majesty's Ka
ttisters. Some of these papers were already before
ithe House, but there were chasms in the correspond-
(nce and official notes which he was anxious should
be supplied. The first Motion he would make was
for copies of such official notes as might have pawed
between his Majesty's Minister at the Court of Vienna
and the Austrian Government. After the FopOsal
of mediation was made by the Austrian Minister, in
the month of April, no farther correspondence an the.
subject appears to have taken place with the British •
Government until the month of November. The cor-
respondence was then resumed, and a direct invitation
to negociate with France was communicated in a note
from the Prince de Starhemberg, and rejected, he
must say, in a harsh and petulant manner. As it was
probable that some communication might have taken
place at Vienna on the subject, it was desirable that
the copies or substance of it should be laid before the
House. The next Motion he should make would be
for a copy of the dispatch from the British Minister
at the Court of St. Petersburgh, containing the mi-
nutes of the conversation held by a Noble Friend of
his (Lord Hutchinson) with the Emperor of Russia,
on the 23d of August last. The third Motion would be
for a copy of the answer, if any, returned by Lord G.
Gower to the note of Baron Budberg on the 30th of
June. In that note, some charges affecting the ho-
nour and character of the country were preferred—
charges which it was the duty of his Ma)jesty's Mini-
ster at the Court of Russia to repel. These charges
were afterwards repeated in the note of Count Ro-
manzow, and more specifically set forth in the Russian
declaration. They were contained under three or
four heads : the refiisalao lend any military assistance
to Russia, the refusal to facilitate the negociation ora
loan in this country, and the vexations suffered by the
commerce of Russia. Of these three, heads of accusa-
tion the last only was repelled in his Majesty's decla-
ration. The two first were passed over in that per-
fect silence, which implied an acquiescence in the truth
of the charges. The first was by far the most serious,
and upon that he must claim their Lordships indul-
gence for some time. The refusal. to make any mili-
tary diversion is favour of the Continent, was one of
the chief accusations against that Administration, of
which he had the honour to form a part. It was a
charge which had been pressed against theft 'bf their
opponents in all possible shapes. This calumny had
been industriously circulated among the public, and
much relied upon in another place : but he trusted
before he sat down he should satisfy their Lordships
that it was wholly unfounded. His Lordship here
went into a detail of the military operations upon the
Continent daring the time the late Administration
was in power, and maintained that at no time was the
course of events such, as to justify them in sending
a large army to the Continent. There were only
three points at which a diversion,. or co-operation,
could be effected. They must have been attempted
either in France, Holland, or within the Baltic. What
cd y.. 5 or 80,000 men, the most Which could have
spared by this country, effect against the popn-
4ation of France ? It would be to send them to ter-
tain captivity or destruction, for within three days,
three times their number might be collected against
there. Was it in Holland that this diversion was to
be attempted ! Independent of the difficuky of este-
bli4hingmagAzines, there were other obstacles to ef-
lecting a descent In that country. The Stag* ren-
dered access to the coast almost impossible, and them
was no strong place under cover of which- the mint
could take post. Was it within the Baltic duo
this diversion was to take place ? He would Fit is
to the Noble Lord.(l.ord hfulgravt), both en his
military„ and nautical capacity, to declare, whe-

7,77-7

.ussians had been driven ascots
descent could have beet attempt-
chance of success cut the coast of
d was the only place where a land-
safely effeeted,and SwediAh Pome-
by a French army, too powerful!
_ this country or Sweden could have ,
collected in that quarter. Where then was this Milt-
tary assistance to 'be given ? Did the Noble Lords at
the other side of-the House suppose, that the landsng-1
of twenty or thirty thousand men at Memel could
have changed the fortune of the war ? His Noble
Friend hehind him (Lord Hutchinson) could bear
testimony that it would not. The Russians were so
deficient in arrangements, that they were often in
want of 'provisions. They had-neglected -to establish
magazines ; and the accession of such a force, in-
' stead of being an advantage, would have only added
to their embarrassments. He trusted that he had
fully replied to this charge ; the next respecting the
refusal to facilitate a loan, would be more easily dis-
posed of. Russia, it was true, had proposed to snake
a Iban tof:eix millions in this country—but it was
found, upon consulting some of the first merchants,
that it would be impossible. unless the re-payment
was guaranteed by the British Government. Russia
offered a species of security, to be sure ; namely, that
the doties levied in that country upon the importation
of British goods, should be made payable here as an
export duty ; but this being a duty of a precarioin
and uncertain nature, was not accepted. The lenders
would accept of nothing short of the guarantee of the
Government ' • and that, for many reasons, could not'
be granted. The negotiation, therefore, fell to the
ground. The only charge remaining was, the injury
sustained by the Russian commerce. It was true, a
number of Russian vessels bound to the ports of
France had been detained ; but they were afterwards
released, and ample compensation made to those whiS
suffered by their detention. They were released in
consequence of a representation from the Russian MI•
nister;that though France and Russia were at war,
there was ao Interruption to the commercial relations
between thetwo countries. In proof of this he men-
tioned, that the Russian Consuls remained at all the
French ports, in the full exercise of their functions.—
To this representation Ministers listened, and the de-
tained ships were released, and an assurance given
upon an understanding that they should convey so
contraband of war, that they should meet with no in-
terruption for the future. His Lordship expressed
his hopes, that be had in some measure satisfied their
Lordships as to the injustice of some of the charges
preferred against him and his colleagues, and the pro-,
priety of their refusing to accede to the proposals,
which made the subject of another ; and concluded'
with reading the first of his series of motions.
Lord HAWKESBURY felt it necessary for him
to make some observations on the speech which the
Noble Lord had just delivered. That speech was
principally divided into heads—first, respecting the
Russian mediation, and the conduct of the present
Ministers upon the subject ; secondly, the Noble
Lord had thought it necessary to go at considerable
length into an apology or defence of the late Ministers
from the charges or accusations which had bees
made against them by persons in this country, and
by the Russian declaration, which charged the Go-
vernment of this country with neglecting to co-ope-
rate with their allies on the Continent. As to the
first point, namely, the Russian mediation, he must
state that his Majesty's present Ministers never dis-
guised or concealed the desire they had to conclude a
peace with France, if such a peace could be conclu-
ded on fair and honourable terms, and should extend
to his Majesty's allies, as well as to bas coos territories.
If they had thought such a peace could have been ob-
tained through the Russian mediation, they would
have gla.dly embraced it ; but it was well known
that Russia had, at the -treaty of Tilsit, entered into
secret articles, which they could sot doubt were di-
rected against the interests of this country, or perhaps
against the existence of some of the powers who were
allies of his Majesty. The Russian Minister, the Ba-
ron de Budberg himself, did not deny that there were
secret articles prejudicial to this country. He would
not, however, state what those articles were, but only
said, " that upon his honour the shutting of the Rus-
sian ports against the English trade was not one."—
Under these circumstances his Majesty's Ministers
thought it necessary to ask what was the basis on
which it was proposed to make peace, and what were
those secret articles in the treaty of Tilsit ? They
thought that if either the basis was inadmissible, or
that these secret articles went directly to the prejudice
of his Maty, or his allies, in such case it would be
idle and dagerous to carry on a mock negotiation
for peace, which could not produce any beneficial ef-
fect, but which would prove delusive to the hopes,
and prejudicial to the interests of this country. If an
honourable could be made, his Majesty's Mi-
nisters would be glad to conclude it, but if the thing
was impossible, they thought it dangerous to hold out
false hopes to the country. No peace could be ho.
nourable to this country which would surrender its
ellies.to the enemy ; and as the secret articles of the
ileaty must be supposed to be directed either against
Majesty or his allies, it appeared to his Majesty's
Ministers, that it was absolutely necessary that they
diould hs.ve.iome information on that subject before
'they could consent to• have the country lulled into the
idea that they were to-expect peace. As to the second
point in the speech of the :Noble Lord, the apelm
that he thought it necessary to make for the late
'sisters from the charges in the Russian declaration,
which appeared to him to be countenanced by his
Majesty's present Ministers, he should first chstr.e,
that them was no possible document or official paper,
to he found in which his Majesty's Ministers had
countenanced or supported those charges. If, how-1
ever, he was called upon to pronounce an opinion, it
would be hypocritical in him to deny, that he thought
the late Ministers acted in many points . from a very
r different view of the subject from that which was en-
tertained by the present NEnisteri. There were- mar y
points in which he agreed with what had been stated
by the Noble-Lord, and some in which he differed.
He agreed with hits* thinking that the late Mini-
sters could not have prevented the, quarrel between
France and Prussia, nor that 'defeat which was SP dis-
astrous to the P-russian nation ; but although it was
out of their power to give any effectual succour to
Prussia, yet in the next campaign, which ended so un-
fortunately, but which began so fortunately (Here
Lord Grey asked strop the House, when or where
it was fortunate ?) Me meant when the power of

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Russia lia(d been brought into the field to
Prussia, then the cause of the Continent.
to be by no means in so desperate a state as'ix—m,_
Ministers seemed to consider it. If it wire'ile
lowed that the French succeeded principally
riority of nunibers, then it might be sup ' th.—Yr•
great .part of that superiaritYmaight Lave been
"Orby proper co-operation, especially as it was 47
ed that Sweden was ready to co-operate with its
grant* He agreed with the Noble Lord also is
principle he laid damn that he would not
larger loan to any foreign power than he .grantt ;
would
subsidy, as it might 'be expected that such loana,D4
fall ultimately upon this country, and that a 14,..er A.
sum would be asked in the way of loan than
be demanded as a subsidy. He thought the •
--" "
,
six millions was too great to give to the Eznp„.4
Russia, either as subsidy or loan ; but it did isaa,7l
low, that because that sum was too large, Mi
should have drily refused hint, and not
Wog. it was natural for the power who asked
mace to name the highest sum, but it did among;
that if that was too no assistance at all shoili
tticatstvei. Althouglemat'should have objected to
, yet when he considered that it was a
pawn upon which ,the last stake of Europe wait
pending, he should not have objected to three masers;
Either as a subsidy, or, if it was mere gratifyinatbig
pride of Russia, as a 1431. He thought their, le
Ministers were wrong in not giving, at lean shalt,
cuniavy assistance which the circumstances • .
and which our. Allies had a right to expect He
thought also, that, although he did not charge ;rim
with any positive breach of promise, or viOlsooki
any express assurance of co-operation, yet th,,t
had by their expressions held out a hope, and induct
a belief in the allies that it was their intentional to.
operate. Those _hopes and expectations had bet
deceived, and the Continent were now taught to loco
iiponlES 'caiiitry as it nation that goaded others to a
war, but which avoided partaking in the dangeoso
losses of a COntionotal.waa. He thought it Irak
have been better to run 'the risk of a loss din*
than to lose our 'rational honour, and be considered a
country which would involve others in dangers tlst
we ourselves would decline. He also thought the la
Ministers had been wrong in talking of co-oreration,
when they made no preparations for that purpose,.
So far from having a proper number of transport
ready,they actually discharged,in themonthofldanh,
nutty transports, which had before been Mile service
of Government. After a variety of observations a
the other parts of the speech of the Noble Lord (hal
Grey), his Lordship concluded with expresso y a no.
diness to grant many of the papers moved to ;bit
there were some which he thought it would be imps,
per to produce.
Lord MOIRA considered, that his Majesty'spe.
sent Ministers had no right to ask Russia to comm.
nicate the Secret Articles of the Treaty she hadiaa
forced to sign at Tilsit. If the Emperor of anat
signed secret articles, he had pledged his honour the
they should be secret, and we could not resioriall
expect him to violate that pledge. At the mans
meat, however. and in the same breath, that wesieeisi
the power of Russia to be a fair guarantee between
and France, and rejected that mediation, we ahead
it as between us and Denmark, and thought that, is
that case, her nue was quite sufficient. If tie
late Ministers, trosur-ever, did not send= army tole
assistance of Russia. it was because no 21211 y, whit
this country could send, had the smallest chance at
turning the fate of the last unfortunate camp -
The greatest force that was ever spoken of as .
to attempt a diversion with was 30,000 British aocp,
. and 15,000 Swedes. This force, collected at Sad
nand, could have had but very little effect on the as
paign. It would not have prevented the defeat ride
Russians ; and if the event of the battle had evenly.
nod out the other sway, and that the French had her
defeated, still that force would have been too an
throw in the rear of such an immense army on its vs.
treat. It was impossible that this force could hale
acted upon the flank of the enemy, for they were to.
eased by great rivers, the Oder and the Vistula. b
such an expedition, our risk would not be Tautly a
army, but it would be the army of Great Wain--
This certainly should not be risked, unless there vs,
a probability of gaining some most important edam
nage. The fact was, that the late Ministers vai
convinced, upon the fullest consideration, that is
troops which they could send were not likely to
duce any important effect, and that there was fah
one chance remaining for Europe. Tothat onetime
they paid the utmost attention. That chance Wad
that Austria might be brought to move, and that
the Austrian army marched down to the LowerElin
bind the communications of the French array, 'nig
case Europe would have had a-fair chance of its deli-
verance. If that chance had occurred, the citzurmtw
ces would have arrired in which the late Milton
would have been prepared to co-operate with 2 Oa
tary force. Combined with the Austrians, every. t 1
might be hoped for ; but if merely combined with dt
'Swedes, the danger that our army would raa.sar
much greater than any chance they couldhave
of al
tering the fate of the campaign. It appeared kraal
accounts, that the French army had a superiorityortr
the Russians of at least sixty thousand men; and
when it was considered in how different a manner the
two armies were commanded, it could not be rati
posed that any reinforcement we could. have seal
would have out-balanced this disproportion isml
hers. He utterly denied'that the Russians had eyt.
any prospect of success although their soldiErspla.ef
immortal honour at Eylau. It was a military On
in all countries to endeavour to kcal) the pet,'"
good humour by giving very favourable aosoots.4i
their military succes, es • but the fact was, that libel
battle of Pultusk (which they claimed as a sista*
they were defeated with_ the loss of eighty piecod
cannon, and the Russian army would have been 01.
terly annihilated, if the badness of the roada had r 6
prevented a division of French army from con*
up in time.
Lord HUTCHINSON hoped the House svor:Il
i.
allow him to state some matters schich,from the sc.
ation htd held, were within his own Fergana' IrD4
ledge. The Russian army never had any chance j
succeeding in the campaign, or even in the ha__
Eylau, where they fought so bravely. The- re!:
had certainly the victory. They remained- for
days in the field of battle, and immediately arP. I
made themselves masters of the magazines at slaml
and returned to their castionents, *ten theY
tually covered the blockade of several strong t;

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;ouncil, and to rove that they aim tier lbw,. iipip the Rus
unconstitutional, ;or impolitic., *e was the Ifill$12; any de
as the Noble Baron, that the whole 1 tha ed wisb the Sisialkst
the Administration with respedtm AM*... the allttic. Stialtund
Lundergo the most ample discussion.; .agal ipz could have been
therefore, not oppose the motion. rania was observed 1
r re. sr T /64rt wished to know, whether 'it for any force that thi