The Sun.
London, England, 1845-02-19 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, 'WEDNESDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY l9, 1845.

Gentleman (Mr. Aglionby) that it was for the general con-
venience of the House he had appointed Friday.
SIR J. GRAHAM'S RAIL WAY SPECULATION.
Sir J. GRAHAM said that as the House was on the subject
of railways he'thought he:might be allowed to correct an error in
fact into which he had fallen when he last addressed the House
on the subject of railways. On that occasion he stated that he
had never had any connexion, with railroads in his life. The
general statement was perfectly true, but it was made in forget-
fulness of the fact that when he had the honour of representing
Carlisle a railroad was projected, which, it was supposed, would
be of advantage to that city. On that account he purchased a
share of 100/.—(Laughter, and cries of " Oh, oh")—which he
need not assure the House he sold without any view to profit.
Mr. MONCKTON MILNES said that he wished to ask the
Right Hon. Gentleman a question of which he had given notice
the other night, and in putting that question he wished to do it
with all deliberation. When last he had named this matter in
the House he had deemed it better to give notice to the
Right Honourable Gentleman of his intention to put this
question, and to ask what instructions had been sent
out to the agent of this country abroad, with respect
to the matter on which he intended to speak, and this he did
because he believed it to be a matter of much interest in that
House. The question, then, which he wished to ask was whe-
ther, at the time that representations were made to the
Minister for Foreign Affairs of the insurrection which was
likely to ensue in the Italian States against the Government
of Austria, any instruction had been sent out by Lord Aber-
deen to the Governor or other authorities in the Island of
Corfu, that the British Government were in
possession of information respecting such insurrectionary
movement, and whether any information or other intimation
had been given to the persons at that time in the places under
the dominion of the British Government, who were likely to
engage in such insurrectionary movement, of their designs
being known, and of its having been communicated to the
Austrian and Italian Governments the movements that were
likely to take place, and the persons of the parties who were
likely to be engaged in them.
Sir ROBERT PEEL said he was happy to give an
an ample, and I think a sufficient answer to this question.
As the lion. Member has given notice of the nature of his
question, proper attention has been paid to the subject. The
Hon. Member has said that a deep interest was felt in this
question, and I believe he is perfectly correct in that statement;
and he should, therefore, feel it his duty to give a full reply to
that question. But lam sorry to say that 1 cannot do so, Sir,
without entering fully into the question.—(Hear, hear.) I
hope the House will excuse this, and 1 will give
the information we possess as briefly and suc-
cinctly as I can.—( Hear, hear.) When the British Go-
vernment last year received information that an insurrec-
tionary movement was contemplated in the Italian States, they
felt it their duty to put the Austrian and Italian
Governments on their guard, and particularly as this
movement was organised by individuals residing at that
time in possessions under the 'protection of the British Go-
vernment. In reply to this, they had been informed that some
parties engaged in that movement were resident in this coun-
try. His Noble Friend had also been informed that the Aus-
trian Government had given instructions to the General at
that time in command of their forces at Milan, to the effect,
that if any attempt was made to trespass on the Austrian ter-
ritories by insurrectionists from the Papal States, in which
it was believed the insurrection was chiefly organised,
to resist and destroy the rebels to the utmost of his
power, without any further reference to his Government.
There were certain intimations conveyed to us which led us
to apprehend great danger to the public tranquillity in the
shape of an insurrectionary movement in Italy. My Noble
Friend did convey to the Austrian Government, from time to
time, the general purport of any information which he re-
ceived in respect to the proceedings of those who had
designs against the tranquillity of Italy.—(Cries of " Hear,
hear.) He communicated no letter which he had received
or extracts from any letter, neither did he state the name of
any individual within the power of the Austrian Government.
But as it is stated in the report of the Select Committee, he
did from time to time communicate to the represen-
tatives of the Austrian
.Government in this country, the
general purport of any information connected with the
designs of those who resided within the dominions
of her Majesty—particularly in the Mediterranean—calculated
to disturb the public tranquillity. The parts with respect to
which apprehensions were chiefly entertained were in the Papal
States. My Noble Friend has not a very perfect recollection
of the circumstances, having destroyed such letters as he re-
ceived, except those of a public nature. He has not now
a distinct recollection of the purport of them ; but, as far as
his recollection serves him, he never saw any communication
of a public or private nature which led him to apprehend that
a particular attack was to be made from Corfu. At any rate, he
never took any steps whatever on such communications; he
never communicated either to the Austrian Government, the
Neapolitan Government, or to the authorities at Rome ; he
never made any communication to them respecting any par-
ticular designs meditated in Corfu. Consequently, the
impression which some gentlemen appeared to entertain, that
these individuals were led into a trap by an act of the British
Government is entirely without foundation. So little reason
had he to apprehend that any particular attempt would
be made from Corfu, that no communication whatever
on the subject was made to Lord Seaton, the Gover-
nor of the lonian Islands. The fact is, that the at-
tempt took every party by surprise—it took Lord Seaton by
surprise, and it took the Consul completely by surprise. With-
out referring to the dispatches, he would state to the House
what were the facts. It appears that there were residing in
Malta, in the Jordan Islands, several persons refugees from their
own country, on account of political disturbances. They were
permitted to reside there without molestation. The two sons
of Admiral Bandiera resided at Corfu. They conducted them-
selves very quietly without exciting suspicion on the part
of the Government of the lonian Islands. It ap-
pears that on the night of the 12th of June
twenty-two individuals, and twenty-two individuals only, left
Corfu in two small boats, without arms, and no preparation
whatever was made for directing a foreign attack. It was not
until after that expedition—if it could be called an expedition
which consisted of twenty-two unarmed individuals, who
sailed from Corfu—that the Austrian Consul for the
Papal States, and the Russian Consul, made strong
representations to Lord Seaton on the subject. They
remonstrated strongly against it. Lord Seaton said he
had been taken by surprise, or he would have made previous
communication. The Austrian Consul requested that the
British war-steamer there should be sent after the boats con-
taining the twenty-two individuals. Lord Seaton said he de-
clined sending an armed steamer in order to arrest them ;
that he was not authorised to do so ; and that
he thought the reports were exaggerated. Lord
Seaton said that he felt confident no invasion could be
contemplated on the coast of Calabria, but be would send a small
boat as quietly as possible to Otranto, in order to ascertain the
nature of the project. That boat had not sailed to
Otranto till after the 12th, on the night of which the
twenty-two individuals had set sail. Intelligence of
this was given to the authorities there that it might be
conveyed to Naples; but no information upon this subject had
been received by the British Government until July, when
they received a letter from Sir Robert Gordon, our
Ambassador at Vienna, stating the facts of the case. The Aus-
trian Government strongly remonstrated with the British Go-
vernment for permitting the boat containing these 22 indivi-
duals to sail, which clearly showed that there had been no collu-
sion between the two Governments. These 22 individuals did
land ; the only account the British Government had received
was conveyed to them in a letter from Mr. Temple, the British
Minister at Naples. The British Government made no
communication whatever to Mr. Temple, because his Noble
Friend never suspected that 22 individuals, unarmed,
and seemingly defenceless, would direct a project against the
coast of Calabria. On the 26th of June Mr. Temple in-
formed the Government of what occurred on the landing of
these individuals. He said that a party landed, twenty-two in
number, thus confirming the previous report; and, on the
night of the 19th of June, they fell in with a small force, con•
sisting of a few civic officers and three gens-d'armes. An
engagement took place, in which one of the twenty-two was
killed. St. Giovanni, the judge of the town, collected a num-
ber of the inhabitants, by which the project was entirely de-
feated, and the result proved highly satisfactory to the Nea-
politan Government, inasmuch as the defeat of the party was
owing to the courage and fidelity of the natives themselves.
This answer to his Noble Friend was : that as they never
suspected that 22 individuals, wbo had up to the present mo-
ment resided quietly in Corfu, would attempt to in-
vade the Italian shores from boats, they had never
made any communication with them warning them
from it, at the same time they had never made any
communication to the Austrian, Neapolitan, or the Roman
Governments, and the reasons why they had not done so was,
that they never suspected any such attempt was contemplated.
He had now given the only answer he could give. Any im-
pression that the Government had allured these individuals
to destruction was erroneous, and totally without foundation.
THE IMAUM OF MUSCAT.
Mr. HUME wished to know whether there would be any
objection to the production of the correspondence between the
Imaum of Muscat and the present Government relative to the
affairs of that country.
Sir R. PEEL hoped the Hon. Gentleman would put the
question to-morrow.

WINDOW-TAX.

Lord DUNCAN postponed his motion with respect to the
window-tax which stood for to-morrow, till Monday. He
had stated his intention to do so in the early part of the even-
ing, and he now repeated it in the presence of the Right Hon.
Baronet.

Mr. FERRAND wished to put a question to the Secretary
of State for the Home Department. Three sessions ago, Mr.
Muggeridge was appointed a Commissioner to go into the
inland counties, to inquire into the distress existing there.
He had made his report, but it had not been laid un the table
of the House. He wished to know whether it was intended

to lay it on the table of the House ?
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that the report had been
niade, but not printed, as far as it was it would be laid on
the table of the House.
Mr. T. DUNCO3IBE said that Members had been in-
formed that yesterday or to-day they were to be fur-
nished with the list of the articles on which the duty was to be
taken off.

Sir R. PEEL said that it had been found to be convenient
to arrange the articles alphabetically, and as soon as that was
done the list would be laid on the table.

SPERM OIL.
Mr. GEORGE SMITH wished to ask a question of the
First Lord of the Treasury, which was of importance to a large
class of persons. It was, whether it was the intention of the
Government only to reduce, or altogether to take off, the duty
on sperm oil?
Sir R. PEEL said the duty on sperm oil was not to be given
up at once, but the Government did intend to provide for ulti-
mately relinquishing that duty ; but they would postpone it to
such a period as not to interfere injuriously with existing inte-
rests. He might as well state now, that after the sth of Ja-
nuary, 1849—( Hear, hear, and laughter)—the duty on sperm
oil should cease.
SUGAR DUTIES.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL asked when the exact resolutions
proposed by the Government on the sugar duties would be laid
on the table ?
Sir R. PEEL said the House would be in possession of the
resolutions to-morrow, and he was in hopes that he should be
able to furnish them this evening. In that case he hoped, in
the discussion of the income-tax this evening, the sugar duties
would not be debated, but would be left till those resolutions
were seen.

Lord J. RUSSELL thought it would be more reasonable
for the Right Hon. Baronet to postpone the consideration of
the sugar duties till Monday.
Sir R. PEEL thought the Hon. Member for Manchester
had given a notice for equalising the duties on foreign and co-
lonial sugars on Friday next, and that there was no objection
on the part of the Noble Lord to that discussion having prece-
dence of the Noble Lord's own resolution.

Lor J. RUSSELL had no objection to that arrangement,
supposing, after the Right Hon. Gentleman's motion was dis-
posed of, no further proceedings should be taken till Monday.
Sir ROBERT PEEL said, his only object in all this was
to prevent confusion in the trade, to which it was of gret im-
portance that the opinion of the House should be known. He
should have no objection to the discussion taking place on the
motion of the Hon. Member for Manchester, on Friday next;
and on Monday they could take the discussion on the proposal
of the Noble Lord.
Mr. GIBSON said it was then to be understood, that the
question of the equalization of ditty on sugar would take place
on Monday next, and for that purpose, he did not think it
ssary to be provided with the particular details of the Go-
went measure.

Mr. ESCOTT wished to know from the Chancellor of th
Exchequer, whet her any time would be allowed to those who
had paid the duty to clear off their stocks.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that its
was not the intention of the Government to allow any time.
Mr. HUME wished to know whether, as the duty on sperm
oil was to be taken off, the duty on common whale oil would
also be taken off.
Sir R. PEEL said it was the intention of the Government
to take off the duty on whale oil, and at an earlier period than
that at which it was to be taken off of sperm oil, because the
same reasons did not exist in the case of whale oil for continuing
the duty for so long a period.
Mr. R. BLEWITT, before the Speaker left the chair,
wished to ask the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of
the Exchequer respecting a paper that had been put into his
hands this morning. He referred to the copy of the Naval
Receipts and Expenditure for the year ending the 24th
of March, 1844. It was a paper laid on the table
of the House, in accordance with the provisions of an
Act passed in the fourth year of the reign of William the
Fourth, cap. 40, sec. 30. A certificate was attached to the
paper in the following terms :—" We, the Commissioners for
auditing the public accounts, hereby certify that this account has
been audited by the officers under our employ, and we declare the
statements made therein to be correct and satisfactory, subject
to the notes and remarks by the Commissioners made thereon."
This certificate was signed by three Commissioners, and he
wished to call the attention of the Right Honourable
Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the
terms in which it was written. It is stated to be
examined not by the Commissioners themselves, but by
officers under their direction, and notwithstanding they had
not done it themselves they certified that it was correct.
This was the most extraordinary document that he had
ever seen submitted to Parliament. —( Great laughter.) If
these gentlemen are to be paid for this work, and do not
perform the duty themselves, he should consider it necessary
for him to move that the office be abolished altogether.—
( Hear, near.) Now, what he wanted to ask the Hon. Gentle-
man the Chancellor of the Exchequer was, what were the
salaries paid to these three gentlemen ? He wished the Right
Hon. Gentleman to explain to this House and the country
what he considered to be the value of their certificates.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said those
accounts were audited the same as of any other public accounts.
The Hon. Gentleman must be aware that if the Com-
missioners were to examine every account themselves
it would be impossible to_ get_ through the public service

would be returned to represent that noble county—the
county Louth ; and if Mr. Bellew showed his face, ugly as
it was, it would be handsomer going there than it would be
going away.
Mr. O'CONNELL again rose, and said he had to hand in
521. Ils. from Washington, in the district of Colombia, and
250/. from Baltimore.—(Cheers.) The Hon. and Learned
Gentleman expressed his deep gratitude, and that of the
Association, to their :American friends. The Hon. and
Learned Gentleman concluded by moving that it be referred
to a Committee to prepare suitable replies to the American
correspondence.
Mr. SOMERS seconded the motion, which passed.
Mr. O'CONNELL wished to make an observation or two, in
reference to the increased grant to Maynooth. He had been
informed that Peel intended making the grant 26,0001. per
annum, besides which, the buildings were to be repaired,
under the superintendence and at the expense of the Board
of Public Works. He had been reproached with neglecting
to oppose this grant, and reminded of his oft-repeated prin-
ciple—that every religion should pay its own clergymen.
That, certainly, was his principle, and he should like very
much to see it carried out ; but, while the Established Church
took money from the Catholics and Dissenters, for which it
gave no value, he would take all he could get for Maynooth.
Mr. R. D. BROWNE, having expressed his full concurrence
in the Liberator's observations respecting American sym-
pathy, referred to the recent speech of Mr. Wakley, in .which
that HOE. Gentleman alluded to the absence of Irish Members
from Parliament, and invited them to come forward and
expose the grievances of their country, if any existed.
Mr. O'CONNELL proceeded to comment upon the speeches
recently delivered by Mr. Wakley in the debates on the Ad-
dress and the Budget. Mr. Wakley had been made a mouth-
piece of, to insinuate charges against Irish Members, which
were totally without foundation ; and he (Mr. O'Connell)
charged him with the grossest ignorance regarding Irish
affairs. This ignorance was so " crass," that it seemed to
be pretended, and Mr. Wakley was in the position of
" Abegoil, who went to hell without sin." In reply to the
demand made by Mr. Wakley, that Irish Members should
make a distinct declaration of the measures they required
and would be contented with, Mr. O'C. read a number of do-
cuments published by himself, and other members of the
Repeal Association, when the Precursor Society existed,
in which the required list of grievances and their remedies,
were put forward. Mr. Wakley's ignorance, pretended or
real, of these public documents, proved him unfit to legislate
for the country, and Ireland could put no confidence in a Par-
liament composed of such persons. The Hon. Gentleman
concluded his speech, which was a comparatively short
address, by moving that copies of the reports, and other do-
cuments, to which he had alluded, should be forwarded to
Mr. Wakley by the Secretary of the Association.
Mr. E. B. ROCHE seconded the motion.

Mr. O'CoNNELL mentioned, that on the next day of meet-
ing he would give notice of a resolution to the effect, that a
petition to Parliament should be prepared, praying for a re-
peal of those clauses in the Emancipation Act which affected
the Jesuits a,-id other revular clergy.—(Cheers.)
The rent for the week was announced to be 7511.105. sd.

the rscase would be somewhat analogous to that of
an unequal income-tax protracted to similar periods.
If, therefore, it is impossible to impose any other in-
come-tax than the present, it is impossible to de-
fend its imposition by any other plea than necessity.
That plea abandoned, the ground is cut from under
its continuation. It behoved Sir Robert Peel, who
was pre-determined, it seems, to continue it, to have
overthrown this position, which not only stakes every
reflecting mind, but which is irrefragably deduced from
that which he himself assumed in laying on this im-
post. It was on the plea of necessity that the objec-
tions against it were met. It was on that plea—on the
case of urgency for suppporting the public credit—fur
filling up the deficit which for one or two years had
existed, after indirect taxation was said to have reached
its limits that this war tax—this income impress-
ment—was alone defended. It cannot be defended so
now. It must be fairly admitted that the public allowed
the plea—so far as silence gives consent. It was an
honourable feeling that prompted them to take the word
of the responsible Minister both for the necessity he
alleged, and for the concurrent duration of this forced
requisition with that necessity. His " supplemental
noses" should have sympathised (like Taliacotius's)
with that which they first were cut from ; his grand
excision was justified by necessity; and with that neces-
sity its product was bound to drop. Even then, it
is true, certain Whigs declared there was no
necessity in the matter. They were not listened to :
we are not sure that they should have been listened to
on so vital a point. The great advantage which Sir
Robert Peel had, at that time, over his opponents,
was, that while their propounded resources were hypo-
thetical, and discovered very suddenly—his were direct.
perhaps vulgar, but there was nothing untried, nothing
experimental about them. Had the Whigs been in force
to propose a property-tax, along with their other changes
—as an interim measure awaiting their full effects—they
would have pre-occupied that strong ground which a
Minister holds in England (long may it be so) who
confronts boldly the worst emergency. This ad-
vantage Sir Robert Peel took at starting ; but how
can he claim it now ? The strength of his case
then was the exceptional nature alike of the crisis,
and of his provision for it. That the one would pass
away, and the other would vanish along with it—that
the extraordinary effort would cease with the extraordi-
nary occasion--was the fair prospect held out. W ell—
the occasion has past ; and what has become of the pros-
pect, anu of the promise ? If the income-tax is to be
permanent, it must be on grounds opposite to those of its
imposition. The arguments on which the one was justi-
fied will so far from "coldly furnish forth" the other—
that they must actually be reversed. We were then told
that it was a measure of last resort, to meet an exigency
of instant peril. Such measures in their own nature
must be bad. The more complete the Premier endea-
voured to make his demonstration of the urgency—the
more evident is it that a measure of urgency belongs not to
a season of no urgency. He has had time for setting his house
in order. If this direct tax was to be perpetuated, he has had
time for turning it into something else than a perpetuation
of injustice. It is alleged that all taxation must press un-
equally. Yes—but taxes upon expenditure have this
element of equality in them—that expenditure generally
will be proportioned to means. In proportion as taxes
strike objects of more luxurious expenditure, they be-
come fairer in their incidence ; though, unfortunately, a
large taxation cannot be levied mainly on such objects.
But, more or less, a man can limit his expenditure, in
proportion as prudence demands, and deny himself such
taxed enjoyments as would curtail due provision for the
future. He is not left this refuge in the case of direct
taxation on gross income ; and therefore it is the more
imperative to graduate such taxation with some approach
to equity. There is no such approach even pretended in
the impost now sought to be prolonged.

Alexander Stewart, Esq., father of the Irish bar,
and the oldest magistrate in Downshire, died at his seat,
Ballyedmond, Rostrevor, in his 93d year, last week.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.
HOUSE OF COMMONS, Feb. 18.
EMPLOYMEN 1' OF CHILDREN IN FACTORIES.
Lord ASHLEY, in continuation, proceeded to say—
It had been at first stated that such children might be
safely left to the affectionate solicitude of parents and
masters, but the Legislature thought and enacted other-
wise. The measure of 1832, though an imperfect mea-
sure, had been productive of relief to thousands. Per-
petual attempts had been made to drive them from their
purpose, but no taunts would drive him from his purpose.
lie had been told that there had been far worse evils
than those he had brought under the notice of the House.
In the first introduction of the Factories Bill, when he
had invaded the collieries, he had been referred to the
printing-house, and thence they wished to drive him to
the corn-laws. Let it be so ; but he would ask the ad-
vocates of abolition of the corn-laws, what more that
abolition would do than perpetuate the present state of
commercial prosperity. They had cheap provisions and
abundant employment; and yet in these favourable cir-
cumstances what was the actual condition of the chil-
dren ? The repeal of the corn-laws would leave those
children as it found them. Whatever good it might do
to other classes, it would do no good to them. But here
he would most solemnly declare, that if he believed the
repeal of the corn-laws would place these many thousands
in a condition of comfort, and keep them so, he solemnly
declared that, in spite of every difficulty, he would vote
at once for the entire abolition of the corn-laws. He
had been asked where he would stop. In reply, he had
no hesitation in saying, Nowhere, so long as any portion
of this great evil remained to be abated. He confessed
that his desire and ambition was to give the labouring
children of this empire the opportunity of education:
He would continue to labour in this work while he had
the slightest hope cf success. Would any man deny
that this was a subject well worthy of the deliberation of
that House ? Let the House look at the increasing
facilities which had taken place for mischief. What was
called the march of intellect had facilitated the means of
mischief. He would only just refer to those valuable
tables which had been prepared at the Home-office on this
subject. In 1843, 13 persons were hung for murder.
There were three females who had murdered their hus-
bands, two males who had murdered their wives, one
person who had murdered a child, and one who had
murdered her father. In a summary of this state of
things, published in a magazine in 1844, and written by
Mr. Symonds, a barrister, it was stated that murder and
rape had increased 38 per cent. on the average of the
last four years, rapes 57 per cent., other horrid offences
53 per cent., arson, which exhibited malice in its
worst shape, 28 per cent. The newspapers con-
stantly detailed crimes which in novelty and
atrociousness exceeded the imagination of mankind.
He would not dwell on the subject, but there were two
cases so gross that the records of sin in England pre-
sented few instances of similar wickedness. One mother
had poisoned four of her children in succession, merely
for the sake of the burial fees ; another had held her
daughter over the fire till it was burned to death. If
they would not, as a nation, undertake the task of re-
moving such crimes, let them not, by the continuance of
the present system, render it impossible to re-
move them. Means had been taken of late years,
schools were multiplied, and qualified persons, both
within and without the Established Church. were
ready to devote their energies to this work. But the
entire absorption of the children, by almost unceasing
toil in so many departments of industry, had defeated all
their efforts. Time was when men maintained that
utter ignorance and exclusive labour were the best gua-
rantees for the tranquillity of a people—a most aweful delu-
sion. The people in the ale-houses listened to composi-
tions in prose an d vere, written with great force and power,
and embellished with all the attractions of modern art,
compositions so seductively written that in them they found
vice and violence dignified into heroism. The guilt was
the guilt of the Legislature, who encouraged that guilt by
conniving at it. The Legislature could not disguise from
themselves that they were standing on a very rotten
foundation. They might augment their revenue, they
might increase their navy, and extend their commerce.
These were all very good things, but they were very
little in themselves, and afforded but a very weak
foundation, whilst they neglected the moral and physical
welfare of the great mass of the people.—(Hear, hear.)
All might appear very well and prosperous; but the
hour of difficulty would discover that the Government
of this country had done nothing to secure external
liberty or internal peace.—(Hear.) But still they were
left without hope, nor, perhaps, had they anything to
fear but from indifference and neglect.—(Hear.) He
trusted still in Providence.—(Hear, hear.) There were
great and increasing means of good.—(Hear, hear.)
The vast progress of human ingenuity and power, as de-
veloped in the increaseland improvement of steam-boats,
railways, and machinery of every kind, might be con-
verted into instruments of mighty benefit. Let the State
direct its efforts to these ends, and the Almighty would
prosper their endeavours, and its children would rise and
bless it.—(The Noble Lord sat down amidst cheers.)
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Sir J. GRAHAM said that although he had the mis-
fortune often to differ from the Noble Lord in the views
of the questions which he brought beore the House, yet
he recognised the purity of motive—(Hear)—the single-
ness of purpose, and the honesty of means with which
the Noble Lord endeavoured to attain the great
objects which ho had at heart, and also the
touching eloquence with which he enforced his views.
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bring this subject under the consideration of the House,
that House but gave the Noble Lord credit for
s.
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dyoe,
purity of motive which influenced him in this matter.
well
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been made in such choice language, physical con-
without undervaluing in any deLiteenhg rossoetruibderrsei
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observations
condition,
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time, concede
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utnbooet
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that
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master-manu-
facturers tme
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aeyrriaersdetrksjdpihoetnne.interest r
comfort, and he stated that, in consequence,
improved—greatly improved as compared with that of
vedrahhasecuiasmhertveay,anslmiatttoolomfeatoierchnunkamotlsleeuduladrgrafhneteuahorti
nfneetatd,ochabrtauatees:tirtme,creindiosoffti.daintgoeclinirnteeondayortmeyfwtenhtellnhyaardeet,
better in principle than that propounded by the Noble Lord.
House to the step which his Noble Friend asked him to
distinc-
tions between the labour with respect to which his
processes
dgosoispGnteel fort h
othere
h e childrenblar baon uchreosf of faso
childrenu r mma manufac-
tures.—He materially
fac-
tories, ccl

prints and dye-works—were, speaking generally,
healthy occupations. Many of the processes took
place in the open air. Some of the processes must
be carried on in a high state of temperature,
but, speaking generally, the children employed in
these works were healthy, and the operation could not
be said to be unhealthy. The marked feature of fac-
tory labour, with which they dealt last year, was labour
conducted by machinery. Now, what were tha facts
with respect to it ? Why, that it was easily regulated
with respect to time,and the labour might be stopped with-
out injury. All these circumstances were wanting with
respect to calico-printing, because, when once the process
began, it must be continuously carried on without inter-
ruption until completed, otherwise the work runs a risk
of being destroyed or irrevocably injured. With respect
to the work there were months in the year when they
were deemed to be slack, and there were other
periods when the works must be continuous
Now, with regard to the employment of young children,
it would not be possible for the manufacturers to avoid
employing them; and for this reason, that unless the
manufacturers were satisfied to sacrifice a large amount
of profit, the employment of children would be indis-
pensably necessary. His Noble Friend had mentioned
another branch of manufacturine employment, that
which was called block-printing. Now' this was a branch
of trade to which the profits would not admit the appli-
cation of manual labour. as it would not pay, and
therefore it was that children were employed in that
department; they did the work as well as adults, and
therefore their services were required to carry it on. If,
then, the Legislature were to raise the wages of children
to the amount of that of adults, the result would be,
either the total suspension of that branch of manufac-
tures, or the wages would be so much increased that
the article, the produce of block-printing, would be so in-
creased in price as to materially retard the consumption.
He had mentioned those circumstances in order that the
House might see the necessity of drawing a line of dis-
tinction between the different departments of labour in
manufactories. But now permit him to mention a few
of the peculiar and increasing difficulties that exist to
prevent legislation upon this subject. He believed it
had been stated that in France the legislative regula-
tions with regard to the mode of employing children were
very satisfactory. But in France the machinery used
was not the steam power, and the labour was not so con-
centrated ; and the consequence was, that, according
to the reports of the medical men, it was not so easy to
deal with disease as in the English factories ; that eva-
sion was practical to a great extent, and the result of
that evasion was, that while the idle and dishonest man
benefited by it, the honest labourer was placed under the
most cruel disadvantages. Now he begged to observe,
that in the particular trade to which the Noble Lord had
directly alluded, the hours of labour were comparatively
short, and in many instances there was no night-work
at all. If the system of inspection advocated by the
Noble Lord were carried out, the honest manufacturer
would be placed in an unfavourable position, while op-
portunities would be afforded to the dishonest employer to
evade the law. He was bound to state that late hour
work had existed, but not to the serious extent stated by
the Noble Lord. Late hour work was disadvantageous to
themanufacturers, and it was to their interest to repress it.
When late hour work did occur, it was occasioned by
competition, and the House ought to be cautious how
they legislated with the interests of the labourer. He
did not objtct to the introduction of the measure, but he
was bound to give his consent to it with considerable
reluctance, because the Noble Lord appeared to proceed
further with this system of legislation. The question,
then, was, how far were they go, and where ought they
to stop ? If they went too far in interfering with the re-
gulations of the working population of the country, there
was no doubt it would be attended with serious results.
At the same time, he could not refuse to consent to the
introduction of the Bill, but he must reserve for himself
and the Government the most perfect discretion with
respect to the mode in which the details of the Bill were
to be carried out.
Mr. WAJJLACE was happy to find the Government
gave their consent to the introduction of this measure.
From the cautious manner in which the Right Hon.
Baronet had allowed the Bill to be introduced, it would
be necessary for all parties to make out an extremely
good case before they could be admitted to partake of
its exemptions. The Right Hon. Baronet had distinctly
stated there were three classes of persons who might be
said to be included in the proposal of the Noble Lord.
Now he did think the dyeing and bleaching
departments ought to be considered as coming under the
categoryof the Noble Lord, and he would take leave to
intimate that it was his intention to make an effort to
prevail upon the House to include these branches in the
Bill. It would be his duty to bring their case under the
consideration of the House when the Bill arrived at the
proper stage for his doing so, and he trusted he should
succeed in prevailing upon the House to include them in
the Bill.
Mr. HUME was glad to bear the statement of the
Right Hon. Baronet, and the conclusion he had come to.
He agreed with the Noble Lord in lamenting the pre-
sent condition of the labouring classes, but he must, at
the same time, remind the Noble Lord that the manu-
facturing population was not the only suffering
part of the community. Distress existed as well
in the agricultural as in the manufacturing dis-
tricts. He only differed from the Noble Lord in
the remedy he proposed. The Noble Lord was taking
a wrong course to effect his object ; alai although the
Government had yielded last year—reluctantly, no doubt
—to some of his proposals, thinking them to be of a
beneficial tendency, still they might unconsciously carry
this system of interference too far. He warned
the Government of this, and cautioned Honour-
able Members to watch the progress of the,
Bill when it dead be again brought before them.
Every act of legislation on such a subject was an act
of useless interference in the affairs of manufacturers—an
unjust interference between masters and labourers which
could not but be mischievous. If this were a country
where persons were obliged to labour—if this were a
country of slaves, then, indeed, legislative interference
might be necessary. But the English artisan was at
liberty to work where he liked—he might make what
agreement he pleased, he might work as he liked. Thera
were some who thought the Legislature ought to stand
in the place of a parent, and to interfere to protect
women and children. He was not one of those.
He admitted that isolated acts of oppression might take
place, but he never would admit that any stranger could
step in effectually to supply the place of a parent. Doubt-
less in some cases, under existing circumstances, parents
might be found who would urge their children to undue
labour, but where food was cheap and labour abundant,
where, in fact, society was properly constituted, he could
not believe that such a state of things could exist. He did
not believe that such a state of things existed generally at
present. He believed that the Noble Lori had been told
of certain extraordinary cases, and he must protest
against any legislative interference in the matter, which,
in his opinion, would do more evil than good. If the
rule were laid down, it should be made applicable to all
parents and all children. He was at a loss to know why
the Noble Lord should select one class of the commu-
nity for legislative protection, while he left the others
destitute. It was contrary to nature to interfere in this
manner,—it was bad—it was erroneous—children ought
to be left to the management of their parents. If so-
ciety was in that state which the Noble Lord had stated,
let him direct his exertions towards removing the root of
the evil. Why was it that in England, which was reck-
oned the most enlightened country in the world, there
were so many monsters who disgraced the human form,
and why was it that parents, in order to obtain a liveli-
hood, were obliged to place their tender offspring in
situations of difficulty and danger ? If the Noble Lord
would visit the dwellings of the poor in the Metro-
polis—(Hear, hear)—be would find there misery
equal to that which he had depicted as existing in the
manufacturing districts. Before he sat down he would
call the attention of the Noble Lord to a pamphlet upon
the working classes, addressed to the Right Rev. the
Bishop of Exeter. The Hon. Member proceeded to read
extracts from the pamphlet, one of which said that phi-
lanthropy was a good thing, when under the guidance of
wisdom and prudence ; but highly mischievous and pro-
ductive of great evil when used by meddling persons.
The extract quoted went further to speak of the acts of
certain persons high in station, and to say that all busy-
bodies were dangerous, but the worst of all a Govern-
ment busy-body, for the one interfered only with the
welfare of units, the other with the existence of mil-
lions. The Legislature, continued the Hon. Gentleman,
should give the people an opportunity of making the
most of their labour, and should remove those fetters
which monopoly and class interests had placed upon in-
dustry. The working classes, so far from asking pro-
tection, desired to have protection abolished—they want
a fair day's wages for a fair day's work, full employ-
ment, and an opportunity of sending their labour to the
best market.—(Hear.)
Mr. COBDEN did not altogether coincide in the ob-
servations of the Right Hon. Baronet regarding calico-
printers, but would offer a few observations on the speech
of the Noble Lord. He gave the Noble Lord great cre-
dit for his motives, but he must say that he did not see
what reference the numerous instances of' great demora-
lisation had on the question before the House. He did not
pretend to say that people employed in calico-printing
were treated worse than other people. But surely it
was not necessary, in speaking of calico-printing, to relate
how many people had been sentenced to death for mur-
der, arson, and other great crimes ; nor could he, for
the life of him, see what the burning of a child to death
by its own mother had to do with the subject under the
consideration of the House. These things led the public
mind to suppose that calico-printing was necessarily of
a demoralising nature; and he left the House to say
whether it was fair to encourage such a belief. The
Noble Lord had said a great deal about the duration of
the employment of children in this branch of manufac-
ture, but the fact was, where children were employed in
an apartment where the temperament was mild, and not
hurtful to their constitutions, and where they were shel-
tered from the inclemency of the weather—they had 3s.
a week, whilst the children in agricultural employments
were exposed to the severity of the weather, and had to
work hard for is. 6cl. a week. The Noble Lord said that
children engaged in calico-printing were addicted to
lying, stealing, and quarrelling. He confessed he could
see no reason why children in this department should be
more vicious than others; nor had the Noble Lord shown
any reason. In one or two matters the Noble Lord had cer-
tainly exaggerated—for instance, in stating that children
of three and four years of age had been employed in
calico-printing. The Noble Lord had not given his
authority, but surely he should know that it was morally
and physically impossible that children of such tender
age could labour.—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord
quoted cases in which children worked for long periods
without any intermission ; but he, Mr. Cobden, could
only say be had never heard of such cases. The Noble
Lord had attempted to give a tone and bearing to this
subject which did not naturally belong to it. In calico-
printing, and other trades of the same kind, the time of
labour was not fixed or compulsory ; they did not begin
and cease with the steam-engine, as in other branches—
it was the wish of their parents that children should be
employed—they worked in the same rQQi With them,