The Sun.
London, England, 1820-05-18 00:00:00

CIVIL ,us.r.

Lord CAsTLFBEAori moved the Older of the
I)4y for going into a Committee on ate Civil List
13,11.

On •he question being put,
do 14,,,ve the Ch 4 r,"—

" That the Speaker

tlr.'BetrslET objected to the conduct pursued
by the Noble Lord and his colleagues on this int-
por•tant quetion., inasmuch as they acted merely
on he Report of a COIMDItfee-appointed by ltiy
Majesty's Ministers themselves. They were now
asked to 611 up the Civil List as in the year 1816.
Then Mr. Perceval said, (hi not intet fete wi:h us
on this occasion, and the time most soon come
►Then a general revision it d consideration of the
Civil List roust come betore the House. 'rite
Civil List was then built on an Average bt
of the dearest years known in England ; and from
the- change in the corrency the same sum certainly
worked better for the Crown and the Ministers
by 25 per cent.; the difference in the currency
between tl.ese.periodsbeingegnal to that amount.
Such a stun rues now tioneee,sary. There was,
but one increase in the Civil Lis: dUring•the reign
of George IL when be asked for 400,0001. only,
and that not to pay debts, but iu consequence of
whet deticiencies. 'lire Civil. List had lately been
paid in increase nine times over to the amount-of.
nearly font millions. The same principles go-
verned the country for the last GO years.,..and well
those who govet tied might say it worked well, for
them, but certainly it tlid, not Wotk rro well
for the good of the country. It -might be the
voice of, Jacob, .but it was certainly the
hand of- E9Bll. It was not fittiOg.when the
-
people were in beggary, that the 'Monarch should
be it; unnecessary and gaudy splemiour, lie
thought some further consideration of the mea-
sure necessary, and soon atter the holidays he gave.
-notke of his intention to introduce a Bill to pre-
vent persons holding pensions on the Civil List
front sitting in the House of Commons, just in
the same manner as persons holding places under
the Government had already been, It was said by
a Right Honourable Gentleman opposite, that the

House had no right to call for any papers or ac-
couots connected with the Civil List, and for this
assertion, the autholity of Mr. Fox was quoted.
Had he been in flee House at the time, he should
have contradicted the statement ; for Mr. Fox, so
far from entertaining such opinions, held senti•
ments quite oppositr, when Mr. Burke's Bill was
under discussion. lie then contended, that it was
the duty of the House to inquire into the expen-
diture of the Civil List, and even to resume former
grants if they should appear to have become un-
necessary. Thus he thought it necessary to state,
as the opinions attributed to Mr. Fox on the sub-
ject of the Civil List seemed to be in contradic-
tion to the whole tenor of his life.
The SPEAKEN hating left the Chair, and the
question being put on that part of the Civil List
connected with ireland,

Sir J. NEWPORT said, he had carefullylooked
into the Acts of 1793, in which the Civjl List of
Ire131;(1 originated. There it was divided into 13
classes. In the present Civil List there were
only four including the salary of the Lord Lieu-
tenant. 11 that office, which be considered of
doubtful eligibility, was to continue, he hoped at
least that the addition of 10,0001. 4-year formerly
made to the salary, would be withdrawn. The
classification of 1793 he considered much prefera-
ble to the present.
Lord CASTLPREAGI4 said, the emoluments of the
situation, previous to the addition of 10,0001.
were found quite inadequate ; and even with that
.addition were not sufficient to meet the necessary
expenditnie. One Noble Duke, who lately filled
.the Office, suffered so tut uch in his privkle fortune,

that be was induced to accept a situation abroad.
The addition of 10.0001. was paid out of the Civil
List, and if the reasons for which it was originally
granted were good. there was no groomd for sup-
posiog that rhey did not still exist in full force.
Sir J. NEWPoRT thought the amelioration of the

cutrency, to the amount of 251. per cent., was a
good ground for withdrawing the addition 'of
10,0001. This amelioration made a considerable
diffetence between 20,0001. in 1812, which was
then the salary ot the Lott! Lieutenant ot Ireland,
and 20,0001. in 18'20. The Noble Lord said, the
addition of 10,0001. was thrown on the Civil List
in place of the Consolidated Fund ; but it should
be considered that an increase was added to the
Civil List, which rendered it capable of bearing
this charge. Unless there was some future op-
' portunity of proposing a reduction of the Lord
Lieutenant's salary he should certainly press it
now.

Mr. C. GRANT dill not think the peseta en-

tiry More &In atieleare to Ott neos;ritio Oxpetien
of 'he sit tiatiort. He telt confident that the Noble
Lord Veho filled it at present %%wild lie a cons,de-
rable loser were it •not that everything was con-
ducted with .the greatest economy. It would he
too hard if the office coold trot he accepted) with-
out certain .itijory to private fortune.
Mr. Tetetesv said, the only knowledge he had
of the office was derived front the paper formerly
laid Upon the Table, in which it Was-divider) into
12 or 13 classes. The question sYBS, whether the
sitnation -was such a one as should render any
expenditure of private tortune quite unneces-
sary. When the salary Was only 20,0001. he
never beard of. any person whO 'refused it on that
account. Some were of opinion that the office
was not necessary. Of this he could not form any
opinion. It however it was to be considered as
a mere situation of money, it was their duty to
lOok into the matter before they agreed to this
rote.: They owed it to the public to ioquite
SIOII seas necessary.
Sir H. PARNELL did hot see any great advantage
derived by the city of Dohlio from the expeodi-
-taire,ot a salary of 30,0001. The. country, no
doubt, was notch indebted to the Noble Lotd,
who at present filled the situatioo, as well as to
the Bight IlOn. Gentleman opposiir (Mt . Grant.)
They had dote much to temove prejudices which
hitherto had been prodnetive of serious injury ;
30 0001. was not the only expsnce incitholai to
the sitratitto. It cost rni less than 100.0001. a
year, a great deal of whieli might be saved if a,
'different p•licy was adopted.
Load CAO-etttre,i6ti•sAid,. !bete .was no objecs
tion tee gierea Speeifie,iiiol) of the way in
which the Irish Civil List was applied. The ooly
queetion tosw was, as utu the piopriety.ot the all..
tlirion Made in 1810 to the 14"110, fa". e"a"C3
; a measure which was then -adopted atter tic
and matore discussion. Ile could 14,b0k upon this
propositioo as introdticed for nrenther purpo,e
than to gut rid' ut the office altogether by a side
wied. He was trot prep3red to come toi he con-
clusion that it oas useleas. It would be a den-
gerons.ettPeriment •eo try how the whole machine
of Government could moils without the iuterven-
tioa of any prrsOn_of rank and ability is represent
it in that country. With respect to the aticiiuion
of salary,- however the value of currency might
)lave risen, he did not believe the Lord Lieu-
tenant experienced; in-consegoetice of it, any great
saving in housekeeping. It the Right Ho).
Ba-
ronet (Sir John Newport) formal iiiinselt by the
rise of currency 25 per cent. bet'er, lee was a So-
litary instance. 'He did not think it at all desir-
able that the place of Lord Lieutenant of Ireland
should be such a one as could not be filled by
able and experienced men,.. unless they possessed.
besides the ample means of such Noblemen as the,
Duke of Bedford" or the Duke of Devonshire.---
Lord Whitworth, for instance, a person of great
$ experience, who filled many importatit missions,'
and whose fortune, though ample, was not ores,
grown, .was he to he shut out front such a situa-
tion because he could not fill it without great in-
jury to his private fortune 'The Right tioa. Ba-
ronet might, if he pleased, bring the subject su-
tler the consideration of the- House in any' other
shape, but he hoped he would nut press his objec-
tions upon the present occasion.
Mr. Strew was surprised that any Irish Member,
should wish for the removal of. the bird 'Lieute-
nail! from Dublin. Toe citizees of Donlin would.
be ,strongly oppOsed to such a proposition, tines:
he hoped -that for the trifling sum which the Lord
. Lieutenant cost this coati y, a measure would
never be adopted which would cause such exteo-
sive injury aid • ruin.
Sir J. NeweouT wished the salary of the Lord
Lientenaot reduced to what had. been found suffi-
cient in former times. As to what he bad said of.
.a virtual increase leaving taken place of 25 per
cent. front the state of the currency, he advanced
it not on his nwit authority, but merely adopted
statement that had . been made over and over
again in that House, without contradiction. The
Nobie Lord, speaking on this subject, seemed to,
have recourse to the argument ad honiineni, when
he inquired if his laconic had been increased 25
per cent. by the change, Whatever the effect of.
it might be. on his very limited income, be „con-
trived to live within it.

Lord CASTLEZRAGH .disclaimed all allusion to
the income of the -Right
.Hon. Baronet. With
respect to what he said of the 25 per cent, it
appeared• that be advanced it for himself, but
had merely picked it up from some one who had
dropped it.
Mr. W. POLE said that the salary when only
20,0001. was quite inadequate. Every • person.
who filled the situation in his time expended
double that sum. The Lord Lieutenant had many
important duties to perform. The situation was
very far from being a sintsettre. lie was at the
head of almost every public charity, and a cowl-
derable part of his salary went towards their
stipport. • Nothing, he was convinced, wouirt
give more dissatisfaction in.. Ireland than the
idea of withdravt ing him. Such an event would,
be looked upon by the Noblemen and Gentlemen
of the country as a very serious evil, because it
would deprive them of a Court, which was a
matter of as much importance there as here. T bete
were in that country Gentlemen of as high a mind
as Were to be found in any other, and it was de-
sirable that they shotildliave an opportunity, when
occasion required, of communicating immediately
with the representative of Majesty. Their pride
would naturally be hurt it thete was no possibility
of doing it, unless through the intervention of
SeCretary or any other Officer of inferior rank.
He would say there was luridly a man of re-
spectability in Ireland oho 1 did not think t lee
greatest calamity which could happen to that coun-
try was the abolition of the Lord Lieutenancy.—
As to the s'alary, he would agree with the Hon.
Baronet, when Mr. Perceval had proposed an
increase, it was not intended that the salary
should be adequate to the expences incurred by the
person holding +he office, but that it should be
such as would induce a man of rank to undertake
the office without running the chance of mining
himself. He was satisfied that no man could
perform as he ought the duties of that high office
without a sacrihee of 10,0001. of his own pro-
perly.. He did not, drink the 1101 i, Baronet ever
intended t Ireland should be deprived of a
Lord L;eutenant, but that the salary should be

f'itthile4l. die salary tVete iVoilla
be impossible for Koyexcept }I man of overgrown
proper! y to dccept the office without ruining
himself.

Mr. TtgagaT said, be did not lend himself t°
the introduction of any proposition for depriviDg
Ireland of a Lord Lieutenant.

Sir H. PARNaLL-,-,With respect to the assertion
of the Learned Member opposite respecting the
opinion eniertained in Ireland of the Lord Lieu"
tenancy, lie should decidedly differ from Wow"!
The Hon. Member lived for a considerable time
in the Castle of Dublin, and it was not probobld
that he should hear anv thing in that place against.
the Lieutenancy; but he (Sir H. P.), who pasB"
ed a considerable part of his rime in the Country./
heard many express an opinion that a great alte''
ration was wished for in the Executive Govern.'
merit of the Country. He would recommend Oa!
there should be in Irel tlid, as in England, Lora
Lieutenants of Counties ; tand he thought the j,%
,ecutive would then go on as well without a. Lie'''.
tenant. The principal defect was the want of di'.
rect communication with the Executive.

111 r. BARING would be sorry to see the oflice ih
question abolished ; at the tame time he wo"1(1‘
observe, on the genet al question of reducing thg,
salaries, that whenever any reduction of this de- •
scription was proposed, they were told from :11°
other side, that if there were no salaries, the si"
tnations could be given to persons only of lai
fortune„• Such he Ivas sole, hid been the iii '
riahle prac:ice since he hatl had the honour Of Ll.'
seat in that ['wise'. When the 10,0001. hid bee"
added to the -salary of 'cite Lord Lkutrit.op tiff.
there was sortie shadow of excuse itt th.
dtereased slate of the etnreney at the time the jo'
'crease-was tuide. , It. was a circumstince worthy
of rematk, in reflecting Ott the inetinalitv of s4'
larks, that the Governoti of the Cape of 000,1
Elope had a salary of 10.0001.; which was :net C
111111'S !Midi as the sKldries ,tiriched
the colonies. When the fortunes of rll persons e 3 ;
fft present were seen to be reduced, he thought it
e tair case for consideration vrbether the salaries
of public oilierrs should not ,be reduced ako.
a proposition he, thought vtioidd ben very tale
to be brought before the House, trod in every re"
sped deserving of its attest

The clause vvos thin trgr'retl to, and the &het
eh of the Bill hAving been iTiine thr►>,►gh, ;he
House resumed, anti the Report cyas ordered to
be received to-morrow.

The other Orders of the try viere the disposed
of, and the Ilnose adjourned. .

Sfitne labourer, who were lately employed b/
Mr. NRAtart, in trenching the land adjoining tha
Don-John Field, in Canterbury, came in cont4er
with a steamed grave containing the perfect ske'
leion of a -man, who from the teeth which re".
mained in the jaws appeared to have been' of grelle
age. The !pave was steamed in chalk, and front.
the composition of the mortar wi!li which it
was worked, as well as from some old fottinfatioo4
near it, is conjectured to have been wi:bin tho
Ote of the_ Chinch of SL John, which, it is said,
formerly spoon there-abouts. From the appear':
anceof the grave, it is supposed to have remainto
undisttubt-d maiq centuries.

IMPORTANT t:'!OIIYrATION.—From calculating
by the College Of l'hy.sici.yins, no. less than 40,0°1'
die annhally itr Great Britain or ;Consunoinini),.
anti at leant ia,ono in London. Thedve
,Turnbull, Eq. a very ingenious Surgeon, acey
taitietl 'chat every 2011) person was ruptured '•
;These complaints, are truly alarming to every ill'
4livirlual who uses the letst exertion. ,It is 0511
iuctetlible the. number that quiler troth a certaill
Disease, by being improperly trPar-ell; It tv4;
those circumst ance.s,itsduced I)r.l,:onrEi to seleco
eminent Physicians and Surgeons, of at least 31
years' experience,, to fount a Aletlical, Board ; 10'
since the establishment upwards of 39,000 I".
lbents have been cured without, rOnfyiement".

many of them after ipyspitals bad
Messrs. COOPER and Co. are consniten ic
Woodstock-street, Oxford.sttect ; and gt
lot I e 11Ouse, Great Charlotte. st reel, opposite lb..
Rev. Rowland Hill's, daily, from eight till eirlt
Mechanics have advice gratis ere! y evening, I°lll3
six till eight ; and on Sunday mornings until I •
o'clock.
!,..t.* RUPTURES of 30 years standing radicoll
cured uithout confinement.
*4.* There are private doors at each house, 314'
• plivare r00r...A for Females.
N. 13. The Afflicted would do well to resea;
Messrs. Coom and Co.'s Lectures on two Prif
vailinu, Diseases, published at one shilling, !ll'
Mr. HARVEY, 22, Ildackfiia,s-road. They ill
also. prove memo! to young Practitioners:

Yesterday, in Gloucester-place, Portman-square, the
of Wil I.vocit, E
Bsq. of a son.
At Ainolilly, N. ~1 on the stk 'inst. the Lady of the ,
William Fraser, of a son and heir.

MARRII4".D.
t St'
On Monday, the 15th inst., (for • the third timeo,9the
Chntient-Dain,, by the Rev. William Gurney, Rector, 4-'4104
tine 3e-wetter Louisa ['lnland, third daughter of the late; od
Putland, Esq., t. John George Frederick Hassel, Esq.•
resident at Bottlogne-sur-Mer. The prtrties were preri°,;l4/
married at Boulogne-stir bier on Tuesday, March '2! t 33l
and at the British, Ambassador's, Paris, un Tuesday, Fe`"
,