The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-24 00:00:00

non •
ee to pledge itself to adhere to these principles, an I to
oppose this !nation which had for its object the entirei ll re CO-
TrUeloll of the pi', party of the Church in Ireland. •he !lon.
s'is miser who proposed it stated his views as to the recron-
struction tto ovears ago. He said that he would give 70,000/.
to the Protestant. Church Establishment, 'OO.OOOl. to the
Presbyterians and Weslesane in Ireland, and that he would
give the remainder to ihe Roman Catholics. That was the
principle which was now under their consideration. It was a
question of opinion., and, if they granted 26,000/. out of the
Church property this year, they would have to
grant a great deal more next year. The
.
que.s.ion
*as, whether they were to reconstruct the disposal of the 2
Property in several ways, and to confiscate the pr ,l 3
prop
'Of the Established Church in Ireland. Were they justified in
making any such appropriation? Were they standing there
as legislators looking bark and viewing all the circumstancesconnected with the Union, and the understanding
_entered
nito to continue the support of that Church at that ta-ne, justi-
fied in consenting to such an appropriation? It was imposs ble
for any person to read the words of the articles of the Union
without feeling sal i-fied that it would be a breach of a m
i"lemn compact to confiscate the property of the Church of
Ireland. They must consider the circumstances under which
she Union teas rassed, and risk them elves whether the Far-
siareents both in Ireland and England did not give addi .
Ner•ority to the maintenance of the Established Church. With rjferen tlst
ce to the Maynooth Bill it was stated •
he Emancipation Act could not have pa sed if the property
of
the Established Church in Ireland was not understood to
remain untouched. If they adopted this principle what
effect
it have unon every other description of property? Let
them look to the forfeited estates in Ireland, allowing that
iht:tie h°liiing them became originally possessed by acts of de-
ter
rid spoliation, were they justified now in going back a property
of this description ? If the Hon. Gentleman would deal in this
mariner with church property, he would affect all other pro-
pert), to the same extent.---( Hear, hear. ) There were fir
unjust tehee many Acts of Parliament. which might be held equally
lget ue'Ys Let them look at the contract existing? He did nott
'lrk favour of the Bill on the grounds of that contract,
area,
etZl- as there was an understanding they were not justified
,tking it, and they were doubly fortified in
ti.,,ita.tcha,rgument with reference to the Established
which was a solemn endowment in the
:ins: of the Act of Unhin Ile believed it involved the
i;!nn; of repudiation, and. the National Debt.—( Heas,.)
the:to Pa "Y, with regard to the latter, that they would ,
- Pay it, as they had nothing to do with it, it was en
et of the. f es the feeling of the people
of this
cou orefatners. ut no,
•enurse ntrY was too deeply involved for them to take such a
hem.' th,ey believed that it was a national compact, and lie
'onside t the Property of the Church of Ireland might
the
aufaoriire,d in the same light. Such a course would lower
se of Parliatnent and shake their confidence in this
eleniruin--P to a great extent. lie had the evidence of an
matectuer
thatof that House ( Ale. Blake) on this subject, s
titt:e
bgreatlinkhe
ocfonsidered the Protestant establishment
Connexion between the two eountriehs,
'seal Sing established by the fundamental laws of
bliss
;• rt-1, and could notbe clistut he !without danger to all the _
Llnge which they derived. He (Sir T. Fremantle) supporte.d
Established Churchon hi her grounds. He thought it
0 duty of gestablishment
*erne fthe State to maintain a religious
ands
e •
ami ennn of Christianity should he maintained by the
"enid he subjet, in some respects, to the control and re -
;;7On of the State. The Roman Catholic Church did not
'l3' with these conditions; the Established Church did, and
eo,ii'laid been connected with the State, and, as a Protestant, hehe '
isio_n not consent to its subversion. He would ask
.rare
to
Member ( Mr. Ward) what course teey
to take? Were they to adopt the voluntary principle,
inienclow all sects, or should they throw everything in Ireland.
ti o a state of the greatest possible confusion? The appropri.-
;ssinl 26,000/. from the Church property in Ireland to the
s}stance of the Roman Catholics, would be the ground for
iiir:n.ed applications for a great deal more. They would be
:iv'ng a bone of contention for which they should not ceese
__,hght for many years to coMe. It would create discontent
4,;(fieititerehigious animesity. in that
.country, to an extent to
lie not had not been hitherto carried. The contest would
feep Only for power, but for money. What would be the
.ing of the Roman Catholics? They would say that they
got but a miserable inssaimeet,—( Hear, hear. ) Would it
(:).nsatiqactory to the Protestants? While they withheld any-
. 1:1Ir.g from them, they would consider themselves aggrieved
Gn_Lless Nor would those who were agitating for a national
may,enrnent be bribed from prosecuting their purpcse, and
made
more firm supporters of the British Government by any
es_ne,cssion of this sort ?—( Hear, hear.) The Protestants
it4nd be very much indisposed to continue their attachment to
sterna ; their best supporters would become in that CA.O,
~ p"aPs, their most deadly enemies. The Right Hon. Gen-
an then referred to statements made in a work called
b„ Ireland and its Rulers," which he said appeared to be written
by gentleman well acquainted with the two countries, arid in
e.sn. oh it was remarked that the abolition of the Irish Church
'(•-•1;eablishrnents would be a heavy blow to the Union.--
rie IT.' bear.) The feeling of the Protestants against such
i,raPPopriation would be as strong in England as
_ eland, which was shown by the many petitions which had
Crowded the table of the House.—(Hear, hear.) It was stated
was athat the existence of the Established Church in Ireland
deni,nstonstrous insult and inlet.), to the people of Ireland. He
ehat such was the feeling there. He wanted to know
an'inisn,. possession of property by one particular party could. be
Possession lie rest of the community. He must consider theproperty, whether by a corporation or a private
stancethat
a.raone particular church, as an accidental circumt
not
a -Nils' an insult, an injury, or a degradation o
eo die not possess it. It was
notions were •
turyi ere
quite clear th.at. toheense-
entirely removed in the earlier part of this
std
enwe:urithagtist! Romeo Catholics disclaimed any desire to in-
..tesrtferia
teoproperty of the Established Church, and they
t bat that effect in their petitions when they came
purpose of
House for relief. They used those expressions for the
...eke that thneegativing the possibility of their entertaining the
possession of property by the Established Church
;ill: an insult or an injury' to them. In 1808, in their petitions
tt. they stet that they did not repine at their possession or envy
in He was inclined to think the Protestant Church was justified
,nuni?.intaining its rights, and at the same time he was.
Ister'w Y
prepared to admit that to those rights many duties
iu attached. The grant to Maynooth could not be taken
kith light of an act of restitution. It was consistent
rn," austice, and not in the least at variance with the
lalitY or principle of the Established Church. He there-
°re trusted the House would support the Government in
carrying the Bill.
Sir WALTER JAMES very much agreed with his Hon,
"fiend, who had just sat down, that grave and technicali
_i
nblections might be placed against the motion of the on.
liicrnber for Sheffield. If the Hon. Gentleman carried his
Paint the House would be going
ascertain the Ecclesiastiea into a Committee
Revenues of the
Irish Church, instead of going into Committee on the
government Bill. He thought also that there were grave
constitutional objections to the motion of the Hon. Member
for Sheffield. Looking at the importance of the Act of
,Union,
which could not be classed among the common Acts of I ao le-
nient, he thought it would be insulting the Irish Protestant
Church if they were to go into Committee to ascertain the
°i,tl!rit..and power of its revenues, instead of for considering a
,i
which simply had for its object the endowment of the
College of Maynooth. When he stated that grave technical
and constitutional objections might be made against themo-
lion, he felt also bound to confess that he thought the subject
of
years were
the Irish Church must, before many
Paused, come seriously under the consideration of the House.
liNiecting es he did, the faith of that Establishment, and ad-
' ring its creed—devoted, as he was, to its liturgy, and to
everything which ever had or ever would belong to it—he
s still
th* it to be the duty of Parliament to take such a step a the
()tie Proposed by Government. He had been anxious to address
the House upon the subject of the Bill, because he. had. r.e.;
"iv" many serious representations from large bodies f hi
:.°orly'tituents, praying him to offer his earnest opptositioine
wtoooittihje,
ernment of the Right lion. Baronet upen
however have been ashamed of hiasself had ie giveint,antyt
countenance to these representations. All his family ha,. .ee
hip,n!PPorters of Catholic Emancipation, and he thought it was
duty still to continue favourable to the same spirit of
,Con-
n.cessio Mr. Pitt intended the Act of Union to becactehoorn,
o-
Pa!iied by an Act for the payment of the Roman a i
restaood. Amongst those who had made representations to
Upon this subject, there was a body of persons whom
eot
Tor tlll4,_em4i.n not
pass by without expressing his sincere. r .p
no
They were Wesleyan Methodists, than whot
ti ,n done so mush to advance the cause of the Chris-
Cat
theln religion. When he rememb,•red the fields in wine
sleYan Methodists laboured, though perhaps not like the
holic priests, whom they had so often reviled—when
thishe
re sic,
that, in the mining and colliery villages o
1-" l kingdom he always saw the Wesleyan minister
.wi.tfh the
Bible
in his hand, spreading the truths of Christianity,
',irk, advocating the principles cf the Gospel, he felt hound
hoe, Side him his sincere though humble respect.—( Hear,
this ) The practical views which had been taken olfi
clue'tion by many Honourable Gentlemen or at a
"fenlst' by the Right Honourable Gentleman the Chancellor
It'estlEzehequer and the Right Hon. Gentleman the Seere-
MerYe'or
Irelandwas, that it was simply a small measure for
and ti,Y increasing a grant frem 8,0('0/. to 26,000/. per annum,
had Right Hon. Gentleman, the Member for Edinburgh
isras why if they consented to pay 8,0001. for wretched-
5, should the refuse 26,000/. for comfort and cleanliness.
Nor' for his aryt hld net take so narrow a view of the
lile-"• considered it, so far as his fellow-countrymen
anevconcerned, a large and conciliatory measure, involving,
House'elY to lead to many important results. He wished the
Isei, to look at the conciliatory spirit in which the mea:eue
and'een received in Ireland—(Cries of " Hear, hear ")
to 6,,then to say whether it was net more just
the ••••°' at the measure- rather as one of a series of measures
itsoniin a single measure. It was so looked upon in Ireland,
, as so considered b' the Cork Southern Reporter, which
rl.its'rPe!ited the feeling oyf the principal Catholics in Ireland.
ajenelieved the Catholic clergy of Ireland would be to
f
tnleerPt.the additional boon, if it was given them in a spirit o
the aln:m and kindness; but then, if that were done, of course
ejquestion came home to him, " Where is the money to
oi_ie from ?),
bl
Well, then, if it did not come from the people
y.esland, he was bound to ask himself was he doing justice
fellow-countrymen, by saying to them, " You pay for
for own church on account of conscientious scruples—you pay
eruntaY church also, and now you must pay for another. ' He
the hound in this instance, not only to look to the interests of
rest:l4los Church, but he was bound also to look to the inte-
eers!,°f what his flight Hon. Friend the Member for the Uni-
t.: tc,yhootfoOh xoffoErdoealled "the nearer and dearer institutions of
gland," and he cautioned the House not to turn his dissenting fellow-countrymen against that Church.
14)' oonld not do anything. which would give a severer blow,
_.,i/e heavier discouragement to that Church, which he be-
lo ttel now rested upon the affections of the people, and which,
„,iti.°o truthful words of Mr. Hallam, "is sustained by, and
notice asset for the people."—(Hear, hear.) He wished to
shis, before he sat down, some of the religious objections to
gm'eT,eaasure. It was said that it was not their duty to propa-
seh„,`-• tholicism ; and here he would take the liberty of asking
atarvass Catholicism ? There might be error of various kinds,
Witaerrei.nt might be so slight or so insignificant compared
even e many truths which they disseminated with it, that
slot `ne best Christians could not say that his own creed did
erii4itts:tain some portion of error. Error, on the other ha!,d,
so deny? he so false, so abominable, and contain in it something
fore, , anti-Christian that it was their bounden duty to come
steti.aersu and resit it. He did riot believe Rome was either
,ottessehristian or idolatrous, and yet his Hon. Friend, in his
all ti4o..nee,leelieved Rome to be anti-Christian, and adopted
Presenr bigoted expressions in the petitions which had been
Caserei-ed aeainst the Bill. Now although he saw much in the
be aa"' °I Rome to de lore he was far from believing it to
Paes:(- anti-Christian.p ' Church,. for. it was able to pro-
(l4 trt.ith notwithstanding its many errors. tie
i'ha 7i to
os Know any one proposition that was more
the Church, f o u
ael steShaaritndation of his belief altoether, than to
to which our ancestors. belonged,. taught
doctrines that it was perfectly impossible for any
ttlie
eel ii belonged to it to reach salvation. What must he
ss of those gentlemen who came over to this country
tt;lithese'aynooth College, when, as they advanced towards thas
)811(114'e first thing that met their eyes was a dozen or
4Otis. ragamuffins carrying immense placards concerning
Itralor against the grant to Maynooth—with, on the one
e oiau_ergreat gaunt walls of Westminster before them, and on
b!easke"ae the comparatively finery work of Mr. Barry What,
t!sktotOi Must be their feelings but those of distaste, if not of
rtss slid °r the charity or benevolence of England.—(Cheers.)
onelitti.t look to the consistency of the arguments used upon
-"ltd. or the other; but, taking the whole of them into