The Sun.
London, England, 1845-03-08 00:00:00

been made by the magistrates should hereafter be made by the
inspector-general. This, he believed, was the understanding
then come to. it appeared desirable that he was to become
responsible for the regulation and conduct of the men, shoald
nominate and select them. This person was the inspector-
general, Such was stated to be the understanding, but what
was the fact, and how did it appear that these appointments
had been made from the records which had been made of the
appointments in the constabulary force in Ireland? By those re-
cords it was evident that the appointments in that force had been
made on the plan of the Metropolitan Police Force Bill ? Well,
what was that plan? Was it that the officers at the head of that
force had the power of appointing the superior officers of that
force, such as Captain May. Certainly not. Those officers were
nominated by the Secretary of State, and the magistrates
made these appointments under this understanding. Was this
the system on which the appointments were made under
Colonel Shaw Kennedy, under the Act of Parliament which
gave some of those appointments to the inspector-general,
and others to the Lord-Lieutenant') Did the Noble Marquis
act on the recommendations of Colonel Shaw Kennedy?

The Marquis of NORMANBY—He spoke of promotions.
The Duke of WELLINGTON—He spoke of promotions
also—of promotions from the positions of inferior officers to
the positions of superior officers. Did the Noble Marquis act
on this principle—on the principle of the very Act which he
had himself introduced ; and were the recommendations of the
Inspector- General carried into effect ? Why, by the very first
arrangement entered into, with respect to Col. M'Gregor—
that the appointments, which were, of all appointments, con-
sidered the most valuable, those from the position of ordinary
constables to be head constables, were taken away from him.
The promotions from the rank of sergeant-major to be officers
were also carried on under the same rules. By this means,
fully two-thirds of the patronage which ought, according
to the representations of the Noble Marquis, to be vested in
the hands of Colonel M'Gregor were taken from his office.
He contended that the Lord Lieutenant had a right, if ho
chose, to make all those appointments. All he (the Duke of
Wellington) desired was that he should not he called upon to
consent to this motion to eriminate the Lord-Lieutenant,
solely on the ground of an understanding which had never ex-
isted. He said that the Lord-Lieutenant had a right to make
these appointments. Not a word could he said against the
gentleman who had been appointed, and to whom the Noble
Marquis had referred. That gentleman was a man of th
highest character. There was no ground, therefore, for this
motion ; and he called upon their Lordships to resist it. With
regard to the second motion, he confessed that he thought it
extraordinary that the Noble Lord should found such a motion
in that House on a speech made by a Member of Parliament to
his constituents on his election. The Noble Marquis had al-
luded to the state of Ireland in 1840 and 1841. Were there no
monster meetings in those years ? He thought he could show
him that there were at least a dozen in each year. 'Were
there no speeches made at those monster meetings, and no
subscriptions by foreigners? He thought there were.—
( Hear, hear.) Those meetings were supposed, by the
law, to be held for the purpose of procuring peti-
tions, but not a word respectirg petitions was ever uttered
at one of those meetings. At these meetings threats of all
descriptions were held out against the constituted authorities
of the couhtry. And yet they were told that the country at
that time was in a state of tranquillity. If this was tranquil-
lity ho had never known what tranquillity was. With respect
to the returns he had not the slightest objection to give to
them ; but he should like at the same time the Noble Lord to
add a few words to his motion, calling for other returns, show-
ing what number of troops were sent away from Ireland in
the same years. He thought the Noble Lord would find that
the numbers sent to, and taken away, ware nearly equal.
There were few troops either in this country or Ireland that
were not absolutely and essentially necessary to provide for the
forces employed abroad to guard our foreign possessions, and
to preserve the lives of her Majesty's subjects in them. Fre-
quently the forces were not kept at home till the time of
their home services had expired ; and at this moment there
were some about to be sent from this country who had not been
in England a sufficient length of time to admit of their being
fully equipped. The Noble Lord, therefore, would find
nothing in these returns to commit the Government, the Se-
cretary at War, or any other person connected with the army.
Nor would he find anything to support his argument, that any
unlimited force had been kept in Ireland.
'The Earl of FORTESCUE said that some observations
having been made by the Noble Duke, implicating his conduct,
as well as that of his Noble Friend who preceded him, with re-
ference to an understanding which was stated to have existed
on this subject, and relating to the power of the constabulary
inspector to nominate persons entitled to promotion in the
force, lie trusted their Lordships would allow him to trouble
them with a few observations. He would remind their Lord-
ships of a speech made by the Right Hon. Gentleman at the
head of her Majesty's Government, upon the introduction of
the Irish Constabulary Bill, on the 15th of February, 1836.
The Right Hon. Gentleman, on that occasion, stated that
Colonel Shaw Kennedy should have the appointment of all
racers under him, for whose conduct he was responsible.
Under that understanding he believed that Colonel Macgregor
succeeded to the appointment of inspector-general of the force.
But the promotions were understood to be of this description.
The gallant colonel was to have the power to promote a
sergeant to the rank of officer, and it was left, he be-
lieved, to the Lord-Lieutenant to promote the officers.
But still the promotion of an officer to a higher rank was uni-
formly left to the recommendation of the inspector-general.
The complaint made by Colon() Macgregor was, that a person
he had recommended to fill the situation of a stipendiary magis-
trate had not been appointed to that situation. Colonel
Macgregor, however, had no right whatever, under the terms
of his understanding, to make any such complaint, the
stipendiary magistracy being a totally distinct body to the
police force. Still, he must confess, that of all the stipen-
diary magistrates appointed in Ireland none performed their
duties more efficiently, or more to the honour of themselves,
than those who were taken from the constabulary force. No
complaint had been made against the gentleman who had been
appointed in that instance ; and so far as he had had an oppor-
tunity of judging, he believed the gentleman fully capable of
discharging the duties of the office; but he wished it by no
means to be understood that he thought him superior
in this respect to the gentleman recommended by
Colonel Macgregor. The re commendation, however,
of the inspector-general being slighted, they complained that
the force had been injured, and it was upon this ground that he
supported the motion of the Noble Marquis. The Noble Duke
had been pleased to refer to the state of Ireland, and the meet-
ings which had been held in that country in 1840 and 1841,
but he thought the Noble Duke would be fair and just enough
to agree with him that these meetings could not for one moment
be compared with the monster assemblies held in the year
1843, which had since been so frequently discussed in that as
well as the other House of Parliament. If meetings of the
alarming nature described by the Noble Duke had been allowed
to take place, he (Lord Fortescue) would have been responsi-
ble for the results ; and, certainly, if they had jeopardized the
tranquillity of Ireland, he could never have been able to stand
op in that House and defend his own Administration.
But he must remind the Noble Duke that when
the present Government first took office, Sir R. Peel,
in answer to some complimentary observation made by
his Noble Friend Lord John Russell, admitted that they found
Ireland in a comparatively tranquil and peaceful state. The
Noble Duke had pointedly alluded to the collection of funds
made at those meetings. Now, during the whole time ho had
the honour to be connected with the Irish Government, the
repeal rent was frequently tinder 1001. a-week, and never in
any one week did it, he believed, exceed 2.oci. Their Lord-
ships were aware that during the years 1843 and 1844 the
amount varirdfrom 1,0001. to 2,0001. a-week, and even at the
present time he believed the collections amounted to 5001. or
600/. At all events, he might state the average to be between
.300/. and 4001., and this was sufficient to indicate the feeling
iu Ireland on the subject of repeal. He was afraid, therefore,
no comparison could be made in the state of Ireland now, with
what it was when he had the honour to hold office. He
would, however, abstain from drawing inferences until
the returns were before them—(Hear)—at the same time
he could not help remarking that the condition of Ireland bad
not improved in latter years. A change, he was glad to see,
was about to dawn upon the country, and if the Govern-
ment would only carry out their present intentions with regard
to Ireland, there could be no question they would soon bring
about a better state of things. He thought the grants they
intended to make to increase the number and powers of Ro-
man Catholic Colleges were likely to secure the future wel-
fare of the people, and create a better feeling in Ireland towards
this country. He had supported the appointment of the Com-
mission to inquire into the relation of landlord and tenant in
Ireland, and he was happy to say the results of that inquiry had
fully borne out his original views on that subject. Certainly
he did not agree in all the suggestions contained in the report ;
but there were some which entirely agreed with what he
thought ought to be done in Ireland, and he only hoped the
Government would carry them into effect. The general tone
and temper in which this report was drawn up was no more
than what he expected from the high moral character of his
Noble Friend who headed the Commission ; and he hoped the
report would receive at the hands of the Government that con-
sideration to which it was so justly entitled.
Lord BROUGHAM said an observation had been made in
the course of the debate upon a speech delivered by a Right
Hon. Friend of his upon the election hustings, which he could
not suffer to pass without a remark. He was perfectly certain
that if anything had been stated in the report of the speech
of his Right Hon. Friend which was not in strict accordance
with the fact, that his Right Hon. Friend had been misrepre-
sented. At all events, if he had made use of the expressions
attributed to him, he must have used them asa figure of speech,
and not meant them as a deliberate statement of fact, because
no man in his muses could have so grossly and diabolically stated
what was not the fact. No doubt the expression was uttered
in the heat of eloquence, and it was on that account excusable.
It appeared then that Colonel Macgregor had been consulted,
but that the individual whom he recommended was not taken,
but another one was taken, one who was allowed to be a fit
man. The course usually taken in the appointment of magis-
trates in this country was for the Lord-Lieutenant of a county
to recommend such persons as he thought fit for the office to
Government, and when the Government were desirous of ap-
pointing an individual, or individuals, to the magistracy, it
was usual to consult the Lord-Lieutenant. That was
the coarse which he (Lord Brougham) had pur-
sued when he held the office now filled by his
Noble and Learned Friend on the Woolsack. He had
been accustomed to consult the Lord-Lieutenants of counties
when he wished to appoint magistrates, because he naturally
conceived that they were most likely to be acquainted with the
characters and positions of the gentlemen in their respective
counties, who were fitted to fulfil the duties of magistrates.
But he had not always followed the recommendation which he
received, and in several instances he had deviated from those
recommendations, and appointed other individuals whom they
had never named. Ile (Lord Brougham) therefore thought
that no slight whatever had been put on Colonel Macgregor,
and that he had no real ground of complaint, and he thought
that that House should not interfere with the responsibility of
the Lord-Lieutenant. If the case put before him was a fit case
for attention, the Lords Lieutenant no doubt would follow the
recommendation ; but if not, he was not in his (Lord Broug-
ham's) opinion bound to attend to it, and if he refrained from
following it he conceived that his doing so was no slight to
Colonel Macgregor, and that there was consequently no ground
for the present motion.
The Marquis of NORMANDY said he had no disposition to
remark with severity on the speech of the Hon. Member
(Mr. Sidney Herbert) at Salisbury, but be did exceedingly ,
regret that his recollection had not been more accurate, when an
Hon. Member chose to make observations respecting any
public proceeding without any expectation of being called to
account for those observations. A time would come when it would
be the duty of Members of either of the Houses of Legislature
to comment upon any observations upon their personal fulfil-
ment of duty. This, he conceived, was an occasion of this
kind. The Hon. Member had made a speech at Salisbury, in
which he had observed very strongly upon proceedings in Ire-
land ; and he (the Marquis of Normanby) thought that he
was not at all out of due course in conceiving that there was a
responsibility for these observations.—( Hear, hear.) They
had heard of the responsibility of an Opposition. He, for one,
felt that there was also a responsibility on the Government ?---•
position, and
(Hear, hear.) What, then, would they say to a man who was
amernber of that Government, and a member of the Cabinet,
violatingdnon the discretion which was expected from a man in his
yet that he was to incur no responsibility for
,g4t.herTmheaynihfeasdto3alilnhweharicdhotfh thperiTneaimpl;rot
of public
pmuba.lnicifemsteon,
were widely proclaimed and did theeir Lordships conceive that
these documents were not fitted for remark in that House ?
attention—tie Their
meantwould
threcollect r
declaration
c.hilsrd excited no little
Noble Lord not then
present (Lord Stanley), who had declared his aeoat. in
another place, in 1834, that he could never think
with those men in opposition to whom the whole a 1243i:111