The Sun.
London, England, 1842-04-20 00:00:00

last century almost exhausted. Thirty new statutes had be- n
passed with a view of remedying the evil, but without effeetudly
removing it. The last was that proposed by his Noble Friend,
Lord llatherton, and though he was amongst the supporters of
that measure he was not of the number of those who were
sanguine of its success. In prosperous times the lababourer
was master over his employer, and little difference tnen ex-
isted between them; but in times which were less prosperous
there would always be a strong temptation to the employer to
reduce the wages of his work-people. To dismiss his workmen
was the last thing which he would resort to, and he was driven
to these evasions of the law, in order to retain him in his em-
ployment, There, indeed, the workmen was no longer the
master of his employer, but was dependent upon him ; and he
was given to understand, unless he consented to a change,
either for rent or for goods, he would no longer be employed.
He was perfectly aware of what had been stated by the Hon,
Member for Salford, that there were exemptions made under
Lyttelton's Act. One of his (Sir J. Graham's) great objec-
tions to the proposed Committee was, that he thought it would
tend to aggravate the hostile feelings which existed between
the manufacturing and agricultural population of the country.
What he would recommend was,that a motion should be proposed
to th's effect, that a Select Committee he appointed to inquire
into tl.e operation of the law which prohibits the payment of
wages in goods instead of the current coin of the realm, and
in direct violation of the existing enactment. ( The Right
lion. Baronet here became scarcely audible). tie did not
question the advantages that would arise front the institution
of the most. rigid in.,uiry. The lion. Member for Salford ex-
pressed a wish that the Committee should be fairly constituted.
Ile ( Sir .1. Graham) for one could not for a moment wish the
appointment of the Committee to be concieved in any other
spirit. Ile would merely recommend what he had proposed to
the consideration of the House. Probably any Hon. Gentle-
man could suggest a defect in the proposition, ant if so, he
should be happy to listen to it. He believed there was an
amendment before the House, but he thought it would be
regular to submit his proposition as an amendment to the
motion of his Honourable It iend. He thereforelmoved that a
Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the operation of
the law, which prohibits the rayment of wages in goods
otherwise than the curreat coin of the realm, an indirect vio-
lation of the existing enactment.

Mr. FEIIIIAND wished to ask the Bight Honourable Ba-
ronet whether his motion would extend to inquiring into the
existing frauds.

Sir J. GRAHAM'S answer was inaudible in the gallery.
air. S. WORTLEY said the Right Baronet hail partly an-
ticipated what he had to say, as he had intended to have suga
giatial a somewhat similar coarse to that of the Bight Hon.
Baronet. What he (Mr. S. Wortley) ha I intended to have
proposed was, that a Committee should be appointed to exa-
mine the Ist and t2cl Will. IV., to ascertain how far it was
practicable more effectually to protect the labouring population.
Ile thought, as the subject had before been inquired into, that
it was a tit subject for inquiry, on the part. of the House, at
The present moment. He thought his lion. Friend, who
had iirought the subject under the notice of the House that
night, could in t deny th .t the remedy he (Mr. S. Wortley)
had propoed, was calculated to meet the evils com-
plaiaed of. But, still, he was not so sanguine as
its Honourable Friend. Ile thought that his Honourable
Friend hail assumed rather more against the manufacturer
than he was warranted in doing. To many of the frauds com-
plained of by the lion. Member, he (Mr. S. Wortley) could
not see how it could be applied. In the case of watchmakers,
if they made defective watches no one could compel them to
make them better. Therefore he could rust help thinking that
there was much difficulty in the motion of the lion. Member,
and he therefore thought the course he (Mr. S. Wortley) had
adopted was the best.
MUNTZ said that it was a very extraordinary thing,
that after great charges had 1 een made against the manufac-
turers of the country for three months, that they should end in
an abortion at last. He said an abortion, for he confessod that
no legislative enactments could possibly prevent the truck sys-
tem. He felt that it was impracticable, and if the House
would allow him, he would explain how it was impracticable.
It was not at all necessary for the party who committed this
crime, as it was called, and in some instances might be called
so—it was not at all necessary that that party should support a
shop in the neighbourhood of the manufactory. It was not
even necessary for him to name the party in the shop; all that
he had to do was in some way, directly or indirectly, to have
this person recommended, and those parties who did not buy
at the shop very soon found that there was no more work for
them. Therefore the motion was as complete an abortion as
aould be conceived. He slid hope that the Right Hon. Baronet
would extend his motion, and give the Hun. Member for
Knaresborough every scope to prove all his charges. He
(Mr. Muntz) had never taken any part in that dispute, for he
frequently thought the subject unworthy of the time of the
House. lie was connected with a large manufacturing dis-
trict, and he slid not hesitate to tell the Hon. Gentleman
that he had been grossly made use of. The Hon. Gentleman
sousht. inquiry into the truck system. He (Mr. Muntz) had
been connected with one of the largest manufacturing districts,
and he only knew of one instance in which that system had
been ractised, and it was practised in so easy a manner that
benefit seemed in that instance to be the rssult. It was the
great distress in the country that made the truck system
prevalent. Make the working classes independent. of the
master, and he defied any man to truck. It could not be
done if the work-people were independent, and could go from
one master to another.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") There
was a cause for all this ; and they were looking
at the effect, an not the cause. If they appointed
this Committee it would be utterly useless in the end, and no
benefit would be derived from it ; as he had said before, they
could not prevent the truck system. Now, with respect to
the inquiry into the frauds carried on, he (Mr. Muntz) had
been extensively connected with the export trade, and he must
say that the complaint ought not to have been made against
the manufacturers, but against the price of the articles. lie
had known penknives made of cast iron. The parties to whom
they were sold knew that they were made of cast iron, and
when he told the house that these knives were sold at a penny
each he did not think that any one could expect to see finely
polished steel at that price.—(Laughter.) He had bought
thousands of gross of scissors at 3s. 6d. a gross, and he did
not think any one could expect finely polished scissors at that
price? These articles were made to suit certain markets, and
it was absolutely necessary to make them. What was the use
of their taking good scissors into a country where they could
not sell them ? If Hon. Gentlemen had had as much expe-
rience in selling and manufacturing these articles as he had
they would know he was speaking the truth. He hoped the
Right lion. Baronet would allow the Hon. Member for
Knaresborough an opportunity of proving his charges.
Mr. M. PHILIPS said he came not to palliate or defend
any sort of fraud committed by the manufacturers ; hut he
did think that discussions like the one which had taken place
that night would cause great injury to the trade of the coun-
try, and if au inquiry were entered into before a Committee
of the House of Commons it would attract the eyes of
feigners, leading them to believe that the subjects to be in•
quired into arose from the general condition of the manufac-
turers of this country. It was upon this ground that
he deprecated any inquiry, such as that sought by
the Honourable Member for Knaresborough. With re-
ference to the truck system, he should wish to say a few
words. He was not aware whether or not it was practised
in his district, but the only circumstances with which he hail
either advocated or been concerned with respect to the truck
system was, when parties were residing in isolated districts, but
when population grew up, and large towns arose, he thought
then the trade should be open and free. He did not stand
there to justify the truck system, far from it; but to express his
regret that the laws which had been passed to put that
system down hart not been carried out.—(Hear, hear.)
• lie thought if the IL nourable Member for Knaresborough was
prepared to carry out his motion with respect to fraud on ma-
nufactures, it ought not to be of so limited a nature as he had
proposed, because there could be no doubt that in manufac-
tories there were many other articles in which fraud could be
practised. Ile thought that many of the observations of the
lion. Member, with respect to foreign trade, were misplaced,
especially those relative to the Brazils. lie stated that our
exports to that country were decreasing; now he (Mr. P. )
could not accede to that. There had been an enormous slave-
trade carried on between the Brazils and Africa, and he be-
lieved that many of the articles manufactured in this country
and sent to the Brazils, were sent there for the purpose of the
traffic in human blood. He had been in the Brazilian trade
himself, and he was happy to say that the firm which he joined
had never sulks Si its character, honour, or Christian feeling, by
supplying articles to the Brazils that were for the African trade.
with respect to flour, he would ask the Hon. Member for
Knaresborouali whether it was possible to make cotton of cer-
tain fabrics without flour ? He believed that there was hardly
an instance of such a thing. It was true that at one time a
large weaving establishment had been driven by the high price
of flour to the use of sago.—( Hear.) The Hoe. Gentleman
then referred to the evidence of Mr. Wm. Graham, from which
it appeared that flour to the amount of some millions was annu-
ally used in the thickening of cotton. Ile thought that the
Right Hon Baronet opposite had adopted a most discreet
course, but he did not think legislative enactments would put
down frauds of the description adverted to by the lion. Member
for Knaresborough. In conclusion he begged to say, that he
cordially concurred with the propriety of the investigation pro-
( posed by the Right Hon. Baronet.
Mr. LOBDEN did not rise to disturb the harmony of the
debate, but he thought it was his duty to call the attention of
Hon. Members on that side of the House to the state of the
present question. The subject had been mooted by the Hon.
Member for Knaresborough, on ho believed the fifth night of
the debate on the Corn-law question. The Hon. Member had
on that occasion made perhaps one of the strangest speeches
that had ever been heard in that House. He was cheered
loudly by lion. Members opposite, and by the Right Hon.
Baronet, the Member for Dorchester. The Hon. Member for
Knaresborough had repeated his charges again that night, but
he had taken a wider range. Ile now said that his charges
were levelled against the whole mining interest of Lanarkshire
Mr. FERRAND —No.
Mr. COBDEN had taken down the Hon. Member's words,
and he had referred to Glasgow and Ireland.

. .
Mr. FELIRAND—No, no.
Mr. COBDEN must repeat again that he had taken down
the words, and he must distinctly state that they were made
use of. Now he (Mr. Cobden) would state, that the iron-
masters of Ireland and Lancashire were not members of the
Corn-law League. The line. Member for Knaresborough had
even gone further, and taken in the ironmasters of Stafford-
shire. It appeared, therefore, that a great change haA come
over the Hon. Member. He no longer now made it a party
question, or an attack upon the manufacturers in a certain dis-
trict, but he took in the whole miners and irunmasters, and
roundly asserted that they were connected with the truck
system.—( Hear, hear). The Right Honourable Baronet,
the Member for Dorchester, had fairly laid open the
cluestion. But why did he not take the same step
before ? • Why should he allow the charge to be levelled
against a particular party? The Right Honourable Baronet
cheered and smiled when the lion. Member for Knaresborough
was charging our political party, but when there was no longer
occasion for that, when the charge was made general, he
adopted a very different course. Now what was the fact ?
Why when the lien. Member for Knaresborough made his
first attack, upwards of 10,000 copies of his speech were
printed in the manufacturing districts of England. He
( Mr. C. ) confessed that he did not attach much importance to
the Hon. Member for Knaresborough's statements, because he
had made them upon such insufficient evidence, but he looked
certainly with surprise at the rapturous applause the
speech of the Honourable Member for Knaresborough had
met with Ii sin the other side of the House, and partieu-
lady front the Right Honourable Baronet opposite. The whole
of the ironmasters and the mMing interest were now mixed up
in this question,
Mr. FERRA ND—No.
Mr. COBDEN—I presume I am to understand the manu-
factures are included.
Mr. FERNAND—Yes.
Mr. COBDEN presumed that the inquiry would embrace
all parties.
Mr. FERRAND replied in the affirmative.
Mr. COBDEN did not think, as sonic lion. Members hal
stated, that the inquiry would injure the manufactures in foreign
countries. He did not think that it would affect the trade of
this country with them, because he thought it was absurd to
sup' •
suppose foreigners would come to that House to ask the
that -
character of British manufactures. If they thought that the
manufacturers were snaking inferior articles, let them at once
throw open their trade in corn, and there would soon be an end
to it. If they would remedy such an abuse they must widen
the sphere for industry.—(Cheers.) In conclusion, ho begged
to say, that he cordially supported the motion.
Sir R. PEEL—Sir, I am surprised at the tone of the
charges made by the Hun. Gentleman, and further at the tone
he has adopted with respect to my Hon. Friend, the Member
for Dorchester. He did not know what there was that ren