The Sun.
London, England, 1842-06-29 00:00:00

THE WAR IN CHINA.

Mr. HUME, seeing the Right Hon. Gentleman,
the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in his place, wished
to ask whether he intended to bring on the China
estimates on the first night of supply ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, said
that the Hon. Member for Greenock and the Hon.
Member for Dungarvon had motions on the papers
for that night, but if they would be kind enough to
let him go into the Committee of Supply, it was his
intention to take the vote for the estimates of the
China war in No. 2 of the miscellaneous estimates.
Mr. HUME asked whether the estimates would be
brought on early in the evening or not ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
the Noble Lord the Member for London had a claim
to he heard in the early part of the evening on Friday.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE presented a petition from
forty-seven members of the Reform Association of the
West Riding of 'York, complaining of the continuance
of the Poor-laws, the proclamation concerning light
coin, the abuses f the electoral franchise by the pre-
sent constituency, and praying for the speedy passing
of the financial measures before the House, in order
that the people should know the worst that could be
expected from a monopolist Parliament.
Mr. MACKINNON, in the absence of Mr. Hardy,
moved that the petition of William Roberts, respect-
ing the working of the Anatomy Act (presented 22d
June), be printed with the Votes.
STATE OF SYRIA.

Dr. BOWRIN G, seeing the Right Hon. Baronet
the First Lord of the Treasury in his place, would
take that opportunity of putting the question of
which he had given notice, respecting the state
of Syria and the mountain districts. He had
heard that a person was sent out armed
with great authority, who had once been a Christian,
and had recently become a Mussulman. This ap-
pointment had given the greatest offence to the Chris-
tian inhabitants of the mountains, and it was reported
that the irregular Albanians, who had formerly com-
mitted the greatest atro-,ities upon the coast, were
again let loose.—(Loud cries of " Order, order,"
Question, question.") The question which he had to
ask was, whether Omar Pacha was likely to be re-
moved from the Government of Lebanon, and whether
there was any hope that the Albanian troops would
be removed from their districts on the coasts.
Sir R. PEEL said, that the object of tha interference
of this country and its aliies in the affairs of the East
was, to restore the dominion of Turkey over that part
of its territory upon the eastern shores of the Levant,
and to place the Ottoman Government in the position
of an independent power. He thought, therefore, that
it would be inconsistent with the duty of a British
Minister to answer questions which in the very way
in which they were put, implied a disposition to inter-
fere too much in the internal affairs of the Turkish em-
pire. On the part ofthe British Government he declined
all intention of such interference, at the same time
that it would use all its influence to obtain the execu-
tion of any conditions to which British agents had
been pledged.—(Hear, hear.) He had the satisfac-
tion to say that the Five Powers were entirely agreed
in their views respecting the independence of Turkey,
and they were all of opinion that the best policy.
for Turkey herself to adopt was, that the Go-
vernment of Syria should be mildly administered.
He had the satisfaction of stating that the Five
Powers took the same view with respect to our policy,
and that they were at present tendering their advice
to the Turkish Government in the most perfect har-
mony. He remained of the same opinion with re-
spect to that policy, and he did not abandon the hope
that an appointment would be made most satisfactory
to the Governorship of Lebanon. He had
also reason to believe that a general assurance
would be given that the Albanian troops
sent to Syria would be employed on the coast, and
not in the interior. He had reason to believe that
that assurance would be fulfilled. He thought the
'Turkish Government would consult their own inter-
est by removing their troops altogether.—(Hear.)
lie trusted and hoped that the hopes the English Go-
vernment had entertained would be realised. Ile had
answered the question of the Hon. Gentleman, but
he entreated the House to hear in mind their general
principle with respect to foreign governments, but he
could not answer for the acts of other Governments.
He must say that the English Goverment would
do what they could to insure confidence and
to obtain the fulfilment of the engagements ; but
further than this he could not answer for the acts done
by the Turkish Government.
JUSTICES' JURISDICTION BILL.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said the House would re-
member that a Bill was passed which had come down
from the other House, for the purpose of limiting the
jurisdiction of Magistrates at Quarter Sessions. With
regard to this Bill, he must tell the House that
it was of the utmost importance that the Com-
mission for giving the Royal assent to it and
other Bills should be signed. This Bill was inserted
in that Commission, and could not be excluded from

it, and probably it would be signed within 48 hours.-
Now it so happened that the Courts of Quarter Ses-
:,lons were sitting at the present moment throughout
England and Wales. The effect of this Bill receiving
the Royal assent just at this moment, many trials
would probably take place in the different counties
of England and Wales, upon which questions
of law might arise, and a difficulty would
arise as to whether those trials took place
when this law was in operation. This diffi-
culty had been felt by the other House of Parliament,
and they had sent down a Bill for the purpose of pro-
viding that this Bill should not take effect until the
usual time of holding the Quarter Sessions had expired
Ile proposed, therefore' that they should on that occa-
sion dispense with the Standing Orders, and that the
Bill should be advanced so many stages as would

enable them in the course of to-niorro,W to send it up
to the other House of Parliament. He proposed that
the Bill should then be read a first time, vid that it

should be advanced one other stage that evening.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he was net at all
satisfied with the statement of the Right Ilan. Gentle-

man. It seemed to him that there must be some

extraordinary neglect somewhere, and the House
was aware that there were very severe critisims last
Session upon similar neglect on the part of the late
C overnment.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir J. GRAHAM said he wished the Noble Lord
joy of the opportunity of expressing some of those
feelings with which he had been overpowered since
his retirement from office.—(Laughter.) He did not
claim any exemption from official infirmity, but he
hoped the resentment of the Noble Lord would not
induce him to obstruct the passing of this measure.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE said he rose fOr the purpose
of calling the attention of the House to something
more important than even the hasty legislation
in question. He had that morning received a letter
containing a notice which had been issued by the
,board of guardians of the city of Norwich. The
Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer and the Master of the Mint had stated a
few days ago that they doubted whether there was
in fact any scarcity of silver. The notice to which
he had referred, showed not only the existence of
great distress, but also the scarcity of silver. It was
to the following—" Notice is hereby given that, in
consequence of the great scarcity of silver
and copper coins, the guardians of the poor
or this city have been compelled to issue tickets of
Is. and ls. 6d. each in payment of relief granted to
poor persons. Any tradesman or other person ad-
vancing money or goods, or both, upon such
tickets, may receive the full value thereof,
on presenting them at their office in Bridge-street,
in amounts of not less than 10s.—J. BECKWITH,
Governor of the Workhouse."—Now what was the
effect of this ? The poor were relieved by one shil-
ling and eighteen-penny ticket issued by the
guardians, and the guardians issued a notice
that they would not receive their own tickets
back unless they came before them in amounts of
more than 10s., thus enabling the guardians, in point
of fact, to give the tradesman a light half-sovereign.
If this practice were to be permitted, the whole coun-
try would be inundated with a small paper currency
at Is. and Is. 6d. He thought that was a matter well
deserving of the attention of her Majesty's Minis-
ters. No one could deny that it proved that
there was a great scarcity of the article of silver.
Notwithstanding all this, the poor-rates were
in advance, the City had been mulcted to the
amount of 2,0001. under the denomination of poor-
rates yearly, and, although this had taken place,
yearly distress was upon the increase. He hoped
the Chancellor of the Exchequer would inquire
into the truth of the notice he had read,
. .

and would see that justice was done. He wished to
aAc the Right Root Gentleman whether he was
aware of the scarcity of the silver alluded, and if
so, whether her Majesty's Government had taken any
steps upon the subject.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
could assure the House that he had no infor-
mation of the transaction alluded to until
the Honourable Member for Finsbury had made
his statement. Though he had received com-
plaints of want of silver from some parts of the coun-
try, he had not done so from .he city alluded to by
the Hon. Member. He would certainly make in-
quiries with respect to the notice read by the Hon.
Member for Finsbury, and see that justice was done to
all parties. He could assure the House that everything
had been done to keep up the amount of silver, the
Mint had been fully employed to do so.
Mr. WALLACE thought the time had arrived
when the people should be called upon to give their
choice as to a silver or gold currency. It was his in-
tention to but a notice k upon the books upon
the subject. With respect to the allusion
that had been made as to his notice with_respect to
the Bribery Bill ; whatever concessions were made in
that measure, he should feel bound to bring his mo-
tion forward.
After a few observations from Col. SIBTHORP,
the Bill was read a first and second time, and ordered
to be committed to-morrow.
ELECTION PROCEEDINGS COMMITTEE.
Mr. ROEBUCK brought up a Report of the Elec-
tion Proceedings Committee. The Report, which
was read at length by the Clerk at the table, stated
that the Committee, after considering the best mode'
of carrying on the inquiry in which they were en-
gaged, had unanimously resolved that it was de-
sirable that no parties should be present, except
the witnesses under examination. The Commit-
tee had determined to call the attention of the
House to that subject, in the hope that the unanimous
resolution they had come to would receive the sanc-
tion of the House.
The question having been put, that the Report
should be laid on the table,
Mr. ROEBUCK rose and said, that he had a few
remarks to submit to the House upon the subject of
the Report which had just been read. He trusted
that the House, after hearing the reasons which had
actuated the Committee, would, in the language of the.
Report, sanction the course they had pursued. In the
first place there was no intention on the part of the
Committee to dispute the privileges of any Member
of the House. They had now called in question the
right of Members to be present during the examination
of witnesses, but they thought they would best discharge
the duty imposed upon them by the House, if, while
they felt that their paramount object was to arrive at
the truth, they should endeavour to obtain it with
the slightest possible pain to individuals. If they
could reconcile those two objects, he thought that
they would best discharge the duty entrusted
to their care. The House had delegated powers
to the Committee for purposes of general
inquiry ; but the House could have had no
desire fo fix on them an invidious duty. It was no
doubt desirable that proceedings of an improper cha-
racter should be brought to light, so that the House
might be enabled to adopt some legislative measure
which might prevent their repetition. But he believed
that there was no desire on the part of the House,
hile it wished to have the inquiry conducted on the
broadest possible principles, that unnecessary
pain should be given to individuals. They con-
ceived they would be best performing their duty
if, when a witness was called before them who
was willing to tell what he knew, they received his
evidence in the manner which would be least painful
to him by not permitting it to be printed abroad,
which it would be if it were an open Committee.—
(Hear, hear.) It would appear from day to day in
the Newspapers. It may be said that if Members
were admitted it was not likely they would be
made instruments for conveying what had taken
place before the Committee; that was very true,
and he (Mr. It.) believed they would not. But
if they were admitted, there would be no safeguard—
no responsibility resting with any person that their
pnceedings would not be made public.—(llear.)
He would state to the House the circumstances
which took place, and which induced them to take
such steps. On the first day of their proceedings, the
lion. Member for Harwich was called before them,
and he would state what took place.—(Cries of " Or-
der' order.") He would state the substance of it.
—(Cries of " No, no.")
Mr. ES OOTT rase to order. He conceived no
member had a right to state what took place before
the Committee.
The SPEAKER said the Hon. and Learned Mem-
ber could not allude to what took place before the
Committee until the Committee had made its Report.
Mr. ROEBUCK hoped there would be nothing in-
terposed between him and a fair statement of the cir-
cumstances; nothing which would defeat the object of
the inquiry ; he trusted there would be no fighting
within proper questions, 110 shrinking back on the part
of those who were so ready to accuse.—(Hear, hear.)
He wanted fo know if the House would go so far
back from the Committee it had appointed. and would
not give them fair support in carrying out the
object it delegated to them to inquire into
uppose this difficulty arose, that they should, to-
morrow, be obliged to explain to a Member the way
in which they had determined to proceed, the Com-
mittee would have to make a statement to that
Mcmber which would involve a breach of the rules
of the House, and with the feeling of the duty they
bad to perform they were desirous to avoid .in
any way infringing on the rules of the House. To
„uard against the possibility of such an occurrence,
they implored the" House to sanction the course of
proceeding which would be the means of attaining
the object which the House desired. The Committee
were unanimous on every point which came before
them, and on this they felt particularly strongly,
and had directed him to express their feelings
on it to the House. What was the Committee
to do ? They could only state their desire on
the matter to Honourable Members. In' every
such case the Member so addressed declared that he
did not wish to militate against the wishes of the
Committee. But they could not expect that that

Course would be always pursued by Members, unless
the House sanctioned the course adopted by the Com-
mittee. It would possibly soften the feelings of llon.

-Members on the subject, when he informed

them that they had nearly got through
the whole of the business delegates: to them, and that
they were in a condition to exclude Members who
entered the Committee without being members of it,
by the ord;nary rules of the House. But lest they
should be supposed to militate against the rules and
privileges of the House, and they were anxious to so-
licit the sanction of the House for their present course
till the Report was laid on tue table, and when the
Report was laid on the table they would challenge
the most searching inquiry upon every question on
which they should have decided. If there should be

found any one to complain of any portion of the
inquiry—of any single thing they had done then
he was ready to say that they ought not to have pur-
sued the course which they had. But, recollecting
that the House had had confidence in the Committee,

end had delegated authority to it, all they desired
was, that each individual -Member should exhibit for-
-bearance in his individual capacity upon this subject.
The motion of the Hon. Member opposite went to

order not only, that Members 'should ye ad-
mitted, but that all those whom he was pleased to

denominated accused parties, should be excluded also.
Now all those who were denominated accused parties by

the Hon. Member were each admitted to give his own

account of the transaction. He was informed of all

that had been said respecting himself, and he was
permitted to give his oNn account of the transaction
in the manner the least painful to himself. He was
sure that the complaints had not come from any Hon.
Alembor who had undergone an examination before
the Committee, he was sure thet every Member who
had been examined, would say that uothing could be
open to the slightest objection in the manner in which
the examination had been conducted. He would ask

the Hon. Member for Oxford why he was so ex-
tremely desirous now of interrupting the proceedings
of the Committee ? Had it not been for these inter-

ruptions the Committee would have finished its labours
on Saturday. As it was they could not have finished
before Wednesday or Thursday. He would ask
Hon. Members to wait until the Report should be laid
on the table, when every word of evidence that had
been taken would appear ; and if any one had any
complaint to make them, would be the time.—(Cries
of " Oh, oh," and cheers.) The inquiry would be
crippled if it were gone into publicly. The moment
the public were admitted, every witness would neces-
sarily be required to be subjected to cross examina-
tion.—(Cheers.) That might be a proceeding very
agreeable to some parties, but the inquiry was not hi-
stituted for the sake of crimination. It was de-
sirable to discover the process by which these
things had been effected as illustrations of
a fact. If the public were admitted, the proceed-
ings of the Committee would go forth to the public
day by day, every little incident would be noted and
perhaps misrepresented, and individuals would be
held up to public obloquy ; whereas, by not sufferi ng
any of the proceedings to go forth until the Report
should be made, the whole would appear together,
' and there would be no single individual, who could
be singled out for the finger of scorn to be pointed at.
For these reasons, he trusted the House would cen-
tinue to repose the same confidence in the Committee
which they had hitherto done.
Major BERESFORD said he had been appealed
to as one of the Members examined before the Com-
mittee. He had already stated that the demeanour
of the Committee had been kind and courteous ; but
he did again state publicly that he appealed against
the very formation and constitution of the Committee.
He did impugn this system of secret examination,
not because he wished to shrink from public inquiry ;
he rather wished, as the accusations against him had
been made publicly, to court a public inverstigation.
(Hear.) He should have wished it to brought forward in
an English and constitutional manner, and in accord-
ance with the recorded means and mode of conducting
an English Judicial enquiry, when I.he charges might
be made in the face of day. It was a revival of the
Court of Star-chamber, and by a happy conincidence,
it was in the old prison of that Court the Committee
held its sittings—(Oh ! oh !)—where the light of day
was excluded from their proceedings. In the heginning
of May he recollected the Hon. and Learned Member
for Bath said—

The SPEAKER called the Hon. Member to order;
he could not refer to the expressions of an Hon. Mem-
ber in a former debate.

Major BERESFORD resumed—He claimed the
same privileges as were secured by the constitution to
every criminal who was placed even at the bar of a
Criminal Court, to hear what the evidence was against
him—what was the crime with which he was charged,
and what was the character of the witnesses who were to
support it. The worst criminal had counsel appointed
to him by the Court, to assist him in his defence, and
if he was a foreigner, an interpreter was supplied at
the public expense. Although the course pursued by
the Committee was against any principle of law and jus-
tice recognised in this country, he was bound to ac-
knowledge that it was not their wish to inflict pain upon
any individual, but yet their private inquiry, and their
exclusion of-the accused, was worthy only of those times,
when the chair was graced by the present Speaker,
was occupied by it Leuthall or usurped by a Charles.
Col. SIBTHORP had heard with great satisfac-
tion the Hon. and Gallant Gentleman who had just
down. The Hon. and Learned Member for Bath
said that he did not wish to inflict anything painful
on any person. He (Col. Sibthorp) would ask how
it was that an Hon. Gentleman, who was lately a
Member of that House, was called to the bar of that
House, not a very enviable situation, to be examined
by the House ? He (Col. Sibthorp) was much hurt
that the Right Hon. Baronet, the First Lord of the
Treasury, had, in the fit of a moment, sanctioned
the appointment of that Committee, for he regarded
it as little else than a Committee of secret assassination.
He did not shrink from stating everything concerning
uis election, but before such a Committee he would
not have answered one word. He should, therefore,
take the sense of the House on the motion of which he
had given notice, that the order for appointing the
Committee on election proceedings be forwith dis-
charged.
The motion having been seconded,
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, if he understood
the Hon. and Learned Member rightly, he had stated
that the Committee would be enabled to carry on
their proceedings to much better advantage if no
Members but those belonging to the Committee were
admitted. Now he (Lord J. Russell) had every dis-
position to give confidence to the Committee, believing
it to be an extremely well selected one ; but if the
Hon. and Learned Member had made the motion of
which he had given notice, that no Member but those
belonging to the Committee should be admitted, he
could not have assented to that motion, be-
cause he could not interfere with the right
of Members to be present at the examina-
tion before the Committee. With respect to the
generality of Members, lie was sure no Mem
ber, for idle curiosity, would attend; but with respect
to the Members who were concerned in the inquiry,
and although they were not impeached or indicted,
they might feel their characters concerned, and were
desirous to be preset, and he (Lord J. Russell) for
one, could not vote for the exclusion of such a nnmber
They had been informed that the Committee were
now near the end of their labours, and as the House
had every reason to confide in the manner in
which the inquiry had been conducted, he. hoped
that the object the Committee had in view
might be obtained by the general absence of Members
during the proceedings. The Committee was com-
posed of Members of all parties, and he was persuaded
that their only wish was to elicit truth and do
justice to all. But he should at the same time
state, !that he could not concur in any posiitve
vote by which Members interested in the inquiry
would be excluded. With respect to the motion of
the Hon. and Gallant Me:nber opposite (Col. Sib-
thorp), he need hardly say that he could not approve
of it. The proper mode of objecting to the
inquiry would have been to divide the House
at the time the motion was made for appoint-
ing the Committee. He did not think it would
be at all proper that the Commietee should be
now dissolved by a vote of the House. He was glad
to hear that their proceedings had been harmoniously
conducted, for, if he had understocd ariAte
their resolutions had hitherto been unanimous.
He was persuaded that the only way in which any
benefit could be derived from the investigation must
be by a persuasion on the part of the House and the
country that the Members of the Committee had dis-
charged, their duty with a view to the public interest,
and not for the sake of punishing or exposing indi-
viduals.—(hear, hear.)
Sir R. PEEL said, that he need scarcely say that
was his intention to offer a decided opposition to the
motion of his Hon. and Gallant Friend. He could
assure the House that he bad not given his assent
of the formation of the Committee in a moment of
haste or forgetfillntss, and that lie did not repent of
the vote he had given in favour of an inquiry
into the allegations made in that House. he
had further to say, that he very much doubted
whether the authority and credit of the House would
not suffer if the House had shown a disposition to
assist all inquiry into those matters. He thought that
if such strong objections were felt to the course
that . had been
pursued, it would have been
better to have stated those objections at the time
the Committee was appointed, rather than
to urge exceptions which were not preised, at least
to an equal extent, when the original proposition
was made.---(Hear.) He had given his consent to
the enquiry upon exactly the same grOunds on
which the House had appointed, similar Committees
on other occasions. In the case of the Yarmouth,
the Stafford, and the Liverpool Election Committees,
the House had not thought that the failure
of the inquiry before those Committees pre-