The Sun.
London, England, 1827-05-15 00:00:00

1 4...v,T( t 'Zrri 5:,.• .: ' .
10,
•. , • ...-;# '. __ 4*. - •,' ~,,.` ,• -
',,,rt,....`,..= _ ',- ~ • t ~.-. ~ ,
4: ...ro-0-.:
___,-: 'l-- ---'. 2- , '" " ~,7 "'" - ii;
P,,tava 1 .'.' :1:, . lisrs' :;' '.',:44eTatte drawn from news-:
P. ', - '.:_':,l T •-"l"..,,:!ttittote to onr connection with
a reply littknesj,>-, , , •
the-Co! .c, -..'"..c.:75-71''' - .seal pears peat, entitled to
. . . s
... .
has very rattly mad 'e-salsk• Atnong several others, in the same
-- ine•thing the Noble Marquis
strain in which he has indelfeed. The Noble Lord has
manifested his own strong dishko of the Right Holt. Gen-
tleman at the head of his Majesty's Goverment ; bat no
other fact has he made 0ut...--(Cheers.)-og hare sat many
years in Parliament—l have seen a great many Oppositions,
and, right or wrong, I have been concerned an Rome of
them-4 have read of many others, formed on various
grounds, but it remained for the present day to witness an
Opposition founded on no public principle whatever, but on
private grounds only—on motives of personal dislike tog,-
individual whom I, and the other personsree co.--- disp
-.. •
sonal ost-
Majesty's Administration, are sumo tell the ,
head.—(Cheers. )--On that--1K - '-'
Noble Marquis,
tion to concealment..xu, all I know upon the subject, if
or any other-13 be given. But am Ito be interrogated
auNcjapg the tenure by which I hold my office, and en no
t
public ground?—(Cheers.) It has been sometimes the
duty of Parliament to arraign Ministers on various grounds
—nay, sometimes to address the Crown to dismiss them, on
account of incapacity or crime. But this is the first time
that it has. ever been thought of, to ask a Minister how
long the King, his master, would continue to repose con-
fidence in him, and bow long be would continue to serve
his master.—(Loud cheering.)--To such a question I shall
!lot be the first to give an answer.—(Cheers.)--With re-
spect to the papers moved fur by the Noble Lord, and
which, although the ostensible object formed's° small a poy-
tion of his speech, I bag to remind your Lordships, that I
told the Noble Marquis on a former evening, that there was
no disposition on the part of his Majesty's Government to
withhold the information sought for—that the only doubt
I felt was, whether the information desired could be pro-
duced in that shape, and whether it could be produced con-
sistently with the just prerogatiVes of the Crown—(Hear).
--With those feelings I have prepared a form of motion,
which will give to the Noble Marquis all the information
he desires, although, perhaps, in a shape differing a little
from the Noble Lord's own motion.—(Hear.)
Lord KING—I heartily concur in the motion of the
Noble Marquis, whatever may be his object; and, some
eearsago, it may be recollected, I made a proposition of a
similar kind, being struck, like the Noble Marquis, with the
enormous and needless expenditure in this department. I
wish the Noble Marquis had then been present to support
;ne : his powerful assistance and long experience would
have been highly important. Certain Parliamentary doeu-
nents are, however, upon the table, which show the enor-
mous increase in the charge for public diplomacy in 1827,
as compared with the year 1815. The expence of Envoys
has risen from 70,0004 to 133,000/. ; of Secretaries of
Legation, from 55,0001. to 130,000/. ; and of Consuls,
from 9,000/. to 30,000/. Other returns, in the hinds of
Noble Lords, show, that the out-fit of Foreign Ministers,
estimated at 10,0001., have increased to 12,0001., sinus:
1815 ; the extraordinary disbursements to Foreign Minis-
ters, which in 1815, cost 50,0001., have now ascended to
145,000/., and the presents to them to 36,4271. These
charges, with the ordinary salaries of Ambassadors, amount
in the whole to 424,000/. in a single year, while the whole
sxpence at the former period to which I alluded, was only
120,000/. Some of the particular items in these eccouats
dso deserve notice. Lord Castlereagh's expences at Vienna
were only 21,426/, and those of Lord Stewart only 5,1341.
over and above his salary, with the small addition of 6,5281.
or certain losses. Then I find 47W. charged for a journey
to Mantua • and Lord Cathcart's bill at Vienna came to
6,909/. with an allowance of more than 6,000/. for his ex-
traordinary expellees. The presents for the Russian Mi-
nister cost only 6,800/, and other gifts to Count Woronoff,
to the Russian Chancery, &c., came to 12,7951. These
sums, I suppose, were paid as fees for our admission into
the Holy Alliance.—(Cheers and laughter.)—The arrange-
ment regarding the Consolidated Fund, and the change in
this respect that took place, I thought highly prejudicial
to the public interest, in as much as a bounty
.was
then offered upon extravagance; and in consequence
of the change, I find that a great increase took place in
the charges under every head. As the alteration was
not to the advantage of the public, so in my opinion it was
not to the advantage of the persons engaged in the diplo-
macy of the country. When the pay of a Minister at a
Foreign Court varied only between four and twelve thou-
sand pounds, the situations were considered hardly worth
the attention of Members of Parliament, and the heads of
noble families ; but now the pay has increased so enor-
mously, the appointments are given only to the connections
of Members of both Houses. The race of regular diplo-
matists, if not extinct, has on this account degenerated, as
may be seen by looking back ;at the names of individuals
who formerly represented this country at Foreign Courts.
Hr. Eden, Mr. Harris, and Mr. Fitzherbert, are names
familiar to all, and give me leave. to say quite as illustrious,
though perhaps nut quite so exalted, as some who now fill
situations in the profession of diplomacy. Let us look at
the results, and what then do we find ? That England sad
then quite as much influence upon the Continent as now,
upon a much more moderate scale of expence. In 1786,
her influence was found sufficient to overturn the projects
of the Stadtholder ; and in Italy. and the north of Germany
it was fully maintained. What has happened since? In
1816 we delivered 'all the lesser Powers of the Continent
into the hands of the greater.—(Hear, hear.)—We sacri-
ficed Genoa, nay, the whole of Italy, and Norway, and in
fact relinquished all our former influence to three or four
overbearing despotisms. Of all the squanderings of public
money, that which was spent on these occasions was not
only the most wasteful but the most deplorable.—(Hear.)
—lf I have any fault to find with the motion of the
Noble Marquis, it is that it does not go back far enough,
and I cannot guess why he begins only in 1822, instead
of including the whole period from 1815 or 1816. The
Noble Marquis has spoken of a state of what he terms
disgusting concubinage on this side of the House, which
had produced rather a Minotaur than a Ministry._a
monstrunt horrendum informs—not a Ministry so much
as an abortion of a Ministry.—(Cheers.)—He has treated
this side of the House, at different times, with some degree
of severity ; but if what he asserts be true, he has been
much " too meek and gentle with these butchers." A few
days ago I was much amused by reading the account of a
speech by a Reverend Gentleman, who, at a Meeting of
the Idibernian School Society, put on the whole armour of
vehemence, and said, " I only wish I had an hundred
bands, and in every hand a sledge-hammer, to break down

that monster the Catholic religion."—(Laughter.)—This
is the mode in which this Protestant Briareus makes up in
violence what he wants in reason—(Hear, hear,)—and I
think I now see in the ranks of the Opposition many a
young Briareus ready to attack Catholicism with the sledge-
hammer of his eloquence. I hope_ and trust, however,
that those who are attacked on this side of the House will
not lie frightened by a few hard words.—(Cheers.)

The Earl of MALMESBURY referred to the increased
expence of the National Diplomacy, and contended, that
the salaries of Ambassadors and Envoys at Foreign Courts
were so small, that to support the dignity of their stations
and the cracter of the country, they were obliged to
make inrons upon their private fortunes. It was there-
fore absolutely necessary that some addition should be
made to their salaries. He doubted the expediency of the
charge made with respect to Consuls, who were no longer
paid by fees from the mercantile world, but out of the
public purse.
The Earl of DARNLEY lamented that the personal
merits or demerits of an individual had been made the
'ground of objection to a whole Ministry, whether provi-
sional or permanent, and expressed a wish that a Noble
'Friend (Earl Grey), who had spoken on a former night,
was now present, in order that he might see upon what
different grounds from those he had stated, the opposition
in fact rested. He could not suffer this opportunity to
pass, without telling their Lordships that he thought much
personal animosity had been displayed in the opposition to
the present Government. He was sorry it was displayed
'so much to persons, and so little to measures. If he were
inclined to join in an opposition to his Majesty's Govern-
ment, it would be in a different manner, and he would.
never suffer his feelings as an individual to interfere with
his duty in Parliament. But at present he was rather in..
lined to, preserve an opposite course. He had been ac-
qu
head a i not efd hiswt with j
esthe Right
y .BGhis
Government,
rHon.o men t
,Gseinn tclee
youth,
onuotwh
andat thee
felt more of pride than of any other emotion in contem-
plating that Right Hon. Gentleman's talents ; but his sup-
port was now given to 'the Government because he thought
it calculated to secure the advantage of the people. Though
at this moment an admirer and supporter of the Right
Hon. Gentleman, he did not stand there to vindicate all
the passages in that Right Hon. Gentleman's long political
life; but when he knew the position •in which his Sove-
reign was placed, by the retirement of several of those who
had formerly occupied seats in his Council, and when he
knew that the Right Hon.. Gentleman whom his Majesty,
in the due exercise of his prerogative, had called on to form
an Administration, was one with *horn he agreed in many
of the liberal principles adopted by that Right Hon. Gent.
in the, measures of the Government, he (the Earl of D.)
thought he could not hesitate to come forward and declare his
readiness to support the Government. Ifilowever, he had
not had these reasons for supporting the' Government, lie
should at least hare laid aside all personal feelings in any op-
position he might have thought it necessary to make. He
must be permitted to say, with reference to what had passed
on former debates, that if there was any one thing more