The Sun.
London, England, 1842-05-21 00:00:00

______ ------ n
.e_
stopti,er,,
nTshi
dee
rquestionation of
thhaedh
ibgeheene.o
Inv
declined deviating from the orders. With regard i od,
ment of soldiers, alluded to by his Noble and Gallant ' '
the fault did not lie with the Ordnance Department. .
_l,lO
eirl i taanrdoveren againiii the) broughtatnn,r mil
ut dhseei
pass without againiCthout
tho Board of Ordnance. It was generally admitted wad t
NAPIER
raising said,h he
ieso
voiceul d n oatgaalilnosstv that
oct43:tore_ol„eutitiod
Depletion
perfectly impossible to deny that the Ordnance
a,
officer ee
n,av oleeld OP
could be properly conducted, unless there was a
the Board. It was impossible that the Admira,t?of 001,
respond, and carry on their business with the Hoard'_sereice
nance, whilst they knew nothing at all about the na";ith el
of the country. He would not trouble the Hour_k, Note
further remarks at present, but he hoped the Dc “irieur
Baronet, (Sir R. Peel) would take the matter into WV'
consideration. . e fsilea
RVoInV.IaAndN
Gsaaildlahnet pFerrfieecntdly,
aangrdeehdeinhovvphedat
thel? odefect
fromw ollnila, it
h°l
of the establishments of the Office of Ordnance. , _ ;we
I:re supplied.
'I he sum 121,8271. was then voted to defray the cape me
The sum of 109,2071. was voted for defraying we es r
liors4e3.bejlAeressillisErfP
of the sappers and miners. Peale
sumy
aol f
R3e4g9i
m, I
ebnst/ .0 f wAa sr t
House Estab lle votedr3, for
R defraying
l
et'
tablishment, for the year 1842 and 1843.
telifeTtßihieeoyal Ridin g
the The sum of 34,3031. was then voted for defraying
lishment, anyd the Noe
genies of salaries of barrackmast.
On the motion that 533,177/.ers defraYing be granted for . the
Diti
works and repairs of ordnance,
Major VIVIAN said that he had expected
be postponed on account of the absence of a Nob! I'v:be esa
understood ,
nected with the Government, from whom he
.....e far
tbsi% ve .°t-ealar
the
• &as °
mtoerrecoerinvaesieoxnp.lanations as to a question which he put ect
Sir ROBERT PEEL suggested that the objee
r,..,,,j0g 0?
Hon. and Gallant Gentleman could be taken On b i'll'
_, . oil the Report. ,
Major VIVIAN was understood to assent, and the
..;,41°1" 'tbs '
agreed to.
On the vote of 208,7431. being proposed for defc_ee by e
expenses of the Ordnance Naval and Military a,"`
Treasury minute, tilt°
Captain
anydelayinPtEhCe HwaEyLoLf
thsaeidpretsheantt hreotdoi,d
hnnotthienttehnd ooWstothrnst,
in consequence of what had been said against the late
od bee!
ment, and particularly against Lord Melbourne, wheee„g toes
accused of high treason for not taking steps with reaP;ible te,
invention of Mr. Warren, which it was said would osee °:
blow up Acre and the rock of Gibraltar, and in cowl...pe"
which it was said that he had been invited to St.Petern'utioaa
the United States, it was right they should know tlliltubdeotae
of the present GoVernment respecting it. It was saTioi, GI
experiments had been made, and that the Right molt
t!eman opposite was himself present at these experialto 00
some others on his side of the House, and that a hoeteeseerl to
blown into the air in their presence. What he '7OO
know was, how the subject stood with respect to 31r°' eehjeetc
arid whether the present Government had taken up &fi to
%Nitwit it was supposed the late Governmeet liat he
have done, and whether any communication !Sole
laid on the table relating to it. He thought the $.01,0
of the Honourable and Gallant Officer to the,_'4ltr,
question very ill timed. That question had PTy:
cussed over and over again, and the conduct of the.Nontir P
would be recorded by the future historian with high r''7,t,
was the Noble Lord who had first been enabled to aPPgaete I
to warlike purposes, by interfering in behalf of the
_n free.
Spain, and that intervention had enabled him to soewiii
Spain a treaty for the suppression of the slave.traa,-
thought that next year the Hon. and Gallant Gentleolsl.3,
see the propriety of abstaining from such taunts, if heeTilidli
get his estimates passed quickly. In the discussion 01 , 040,
Estimates, Hon. Gentlemen on his (Captain Pechell'el4illre
the House had abstained from taunting the other side alwi24o,'
charges against the late Government of neglect of dill, the;
providing a sufficient defence for the coasts, and w; ota
prophecies of a Russian fleet enteringthe Medway and bi
0100
Sheerness. Hon. Gentlemen, since they had come int° A I
had, no doubt, seen the folly of those taunts. Or i
Sir R. PEEL, in reply to the questions of thal-11°°;00 I
Gallant Gentleman, relative to Captain Warner's iocof thi
could only repeat what he had stated in the early parte' sekS t
evening. He had witnessed an experiment on a annoy--o,l6which, as far as it went, was perfectly successful. He he'ootall
charged the late Government with having neglected
~e 1
Warner's claims, on the contrary, he thought they ha:cif:44s
a proper course —( Hear, hear.) He himself had °° thole
course of conduct precisely similar. He had-stated that 04'
were two re'ponsible pablic bodies, the Admiralty and %pi
nance, to which all those questions were referred, soltrbet
not seen any reason to take the decision nut of their haor,'"
he had at the same time said that he would speak to the c",eur
General of the Ordnance, and request him to select two". paid
guished officers—one in the military and the other In the ea
service—who could test the efficiency of the experimeot:"foti'
great scale, and he had also conveyed to Mr. Warner eltdalf
mation that the experiment should be performed at the P'
expense. Mr. Warner had, however, attached certain „der
tions to which the Government did not feel disposed to
,a,,e30
and the experiments had consequently not taken place. cSalle
no objection that the experiment should be made at the ri, i
expense, but he could not accede to any conditions as, to '
pensation.
Capt. BOLDERO said he wished to make one obserta!lori
with respect to what had fallen from the Noble Lord
Palmerston). He could assure the Noble Lord that in
the statement he did relative to the quantity of arms sesta
~J
he meant no offence whatever to the Noble Lord. ..e4
Lord PALMERSTON said it was a most econotraeOr Is
ceeding to send the arms abroad.—( Laughter.) ' e'r,
After a few words from Sir DE. HAM NORREY*t se,
Captain BOLDER() said it was not the intention a.
Master-General of the Ordnance to discontinue the sorvwE i
.• s
_,
Ireland. 1
Lord INGESTRIE wished to say a few words, in oPraiblailv
Lion, as his name had been mentioned in connection with
Warner's inventions. However he might be ridiculed ;4
dnlity, he was still of opinion that they were invention' I
great importance. With that conviction he hat:lBW utioset
Melbourne's Government, but without getting acr Honour
tory answer. He had since applied to the Right
scroll
Baronet at the head of the present Government, who, rei
too i
the matter to the heads of the departments. He 4aderiaee
that a very proper course was adopted, and that a colliglOf
composed of two officers of standing and character haa, 00
appointed. All that Mr. Warner wished to have, befalll9s
periments were made, was that in case he. suateedet,,,4
producing the almost improbable results which he had rill/
raised, he should have a guarantee from the Government/lei
that House that his invention should not be thrown aside,:„,o4
(Lord Ingestrie) had not expected that this cirouras"74,4,
would be alluded to, or he would have made himself he,
informed on the subject; but he was satisfied that the dim-.,ir
very would prove of immediate and vital importance to t.,
country.
Major VIVIAN said, that in reproving the course takettoe,
the late Government, the Gallant Officer had also reitreeds'i
that which had been taken by the present, for the course riii vi
sued was the same in each case.-( Hear, hear.) Whenj to j
Noble Friend was applied to by Mr. Warner, he had offee7„,pr;
refer the matter to three scientific officers. The in"-pro
doubted, indeed, whether that would be safe for his eacn't,eie
terest ; but surely he might have thrown himself upeclgtet,'
generosity of his countrymen.—( Hear, hear,) In consequiret
of his refusing to submit to this test, the Government dee;otc?
l -
further correspondence on the subject.
Lord INGESTRIE said, Mr. Warner had veryjustLy (il
that, if the Board should learn a part of his secret, it wonotli
a very good indication of what was to follow. WI'S i.t., 101
possible, that there might not be an invention
supee;7llt7
gunpowder ?
Major VIVIAN admitted that it might be possible 10..j°,4
doubted if the invention was of the description the. 67,01" ti
Captain supposed.
Colonel FOX asked, if the Noble Lord knew what We r Ill)
terms, or the sum, required by Captain Warner?
10;1•A),
Lord' INGESTRIE had always looked on that as a q • fife‘e
entirely between Captain Warner and the Govrnmenc[4bes. it
thought that anything short of a very large sum would ''' 'Ol
bargain to the country. efe).
After a few words from Colonel PEEL, which werel7ir 01,,
inaudible,
have Captainput.
his P
eEaCseHi
into
PECHELL e
tstaei
rd Captainhthaantds,as w hatWhaeretehronegoitirSp)
Lir
~hi
he always pursued without reference to party. The„„P,resoe°,
Government had not been able to treat with Captain v"2,60'1' s'
and therefore they had done no more than the late GoTbei'l,
ment. He thought that every person must now know ate-pie:if;
course pursued by the late Government was a most Prapit I
one. Every body must know the respectability and efacjo 1
of the officers that were appointed to witness the effect of -i'
Warner's invention, but that gentleman had hung back. opt,'' late Government, therefore, could not be blamed for not tuerdi c'
ing an invention that had never been brought properly o°' 0,
them.
BnthvßaeftnOotrnTi
hoosaHnudi
British
Reinttailetsn'hhdOenii:ngaofrtersohlrtuinoanwaumdlgi
eshitennthityvabewtoinntiothtuirowletdnhfoo.eue_swould
late and the pTt ilif ';
_s,,t
tfl,for
gentlemanGovernmentuw,3ls3niat
erlna.d,oti
once.—The vote was then agreed to.
00/. was next voted for Ordnance Stores.
dne(grbliagotouwirgehruetpeavirTeeoo4l
es"
,
A vote of 2,78,e/. for expences of the Office of Orb/lila' r? .
,
was agreed to.
'The next item was for a sum of 169,0001., for the suPe'-eettil'
ation, pensions, and allowances to widows and children t 4 .i"
i
cers, &c., in the Ordnance department. "1 1,
The vote was agreed to. ' ' - 4I
et' '4
The sum of 219,5141. was voted for defraying the chere, -do
the Commissiarat supplies for the United Kingdom in the ' , .3"
1842 and 1843. s I.)
et
NAVY ESTIMATES.
_Si.
2,
The sum of 194,496/. was proposed for defraying the Ct.-pro t ,
includingwB43asm. repairs of naval yards, from the f
od
fa
Any eoswft aA'tleoarntr kce
March,
made by Captain PECHELL o f the by .40
ships of the Admiralty withholding the sums due as arty,ifi
...I,olof e ..'
the widows of officers who had been inmates of lunatic asY`rio4l ",
where they were supported at the expense of Governme_;.,o, . ; accumulation of arrears was due to their widows at tb.!:l--.,1" '
sent time. .. ,
Sir G. COCKBURN deprecated the course
pursued 1 i
h -t;
Hon. and Gallant Member in bringing forward a states:acel
..es,,/,
0, i. se
such a nature without giving notice of his intention.
~_ .;ar. r,/ Sir T. TROUBRIDGE defended the conduct of the se f ;
miralty. It was frequently attacked for not doing what II
tuallv had not the power of doing.
~a- 014 tic
Captain PECHELL did not think that this question 91iee tip`
be mixed up with pensions for civil services. The present bad
.0f
a claim which the Admiralty acknowledged, but which the/ . ',,, not the courage to meet.
After a few words from Sir C. NA PIE R and Sir G. CocLaselleola ' '4l,
Captain t ECHELL gave notice that when the reportrebesr
,e 4 t
be brought up, he would present the petition of Mrs. r°''
which would give the Admiralty an opportunity of giving
necessary explanations.
Lord INGES I RIE was not present when the vote i, f, et.
dock-yards had been agreed to, but he wished to drew bciter
tentien or the Committee to the importance of naval ere gar
two. He condemned the present system, which made the }ad
veyor of the Navy sole judge of all proposed ircprovernect, ectc'tore ,
attributed the present miserable state of our naval arehttr.„l, 01
to the coueinuance of that system, They had several t Atte ' ;
ships of late years, but they had not been fairly conducted. or , 74, ,
had been a degree of favouritism manifested which hadline,'
rated most prejudicially. This was a subject of very gre-;op,fPe'4 4 ,`,
portance, and he was sure it was well worthy the Oleo°
~c,A).
:j s
the Government. A, fl
A fter a short conversation, e. Of y'
• lillActis4
Sir C NAPIER said he had not had time to give /11,4:
of the estimates the attention he could have wished. ", itlti
to the amount annually voted for the civil naval servietti, eos' sr
wards of 100,000/., he put it to the Committee whetbersteegt ,s‘r'°„e
► right that they should have the whole of the situations
o"4Wfie
different departments filled by civilians. The mactitilli got' '', '6l i navy had been always a source of complaint, and hell"' fictiCllll' 'I( 71, Gentlemen opposite—and he did not sin so with `ens -.oriel :.01/ -
feeling, but he wished to call their attention to the Plethef s- t , t'
of employing naval men in this department--he asked vi rit to sl ,' jr,
such a course as this world not hold out an Indoc,elneneovect •
..il
persons to enter the navy? How many pensions would lir; , *VW . 4,; I
hwaedrehini perfectly
ofencet lmy ablemaw who
and h caodm pbee teen.
at top ofirlsletrheenis epsioi t;reda
by the Government, pensions given to clerks and pre The ss '
i doe ? ,
partment, and he would ask whether this was as it Wag of al, .. ii
He shoUld very shortly move for certain returns °a4 00. - i
the civilians HOW employed in the navy, poll:7000w , '
the situation held by them before their aPPeI,. 'sere
n 9
and whether they were gentlemen's or noblerFe ;„ offer
vents, together with the First Lord of the Admiralty I"
tr.oltist.. dr
to her! ,