The Sun.
London, England, 1842-06-28 00:00:00

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.

Mr. LACOUCHERE bad last night understood the
Right Hon. Baronet to say that he should to day first
move the third reading of the Tariff Bill, next
the third reading of the Colonial Customs Bill,
and then the Committee on the Poor-law Bill. Now
from the votes it appeared that the Right Hon. Baronet
had given notice that he would move the third reading
of the Tariff Bill first, then the Committee on the Poor-
law Bill, and lastly the Colonial Customs Bill.
Sir ROBERT PEEL said the Right Hon. Gentleman
was perfectly right in his recollection. He (Sir R.
Peel) was surprised when he saw the votes this morning,
and if the House had uo objection he would adhere to
the course which he had originally proposed to the House.
COINAGE OF HALF FARTHINGS.

Mr. HUME, seeing the Right Hon. the Master of the
Mint in his place, wished, as a proclamation had been
sent to him with respect to the coinage of half farthings,
to ask whether it was a hoax or really the case.
- Mr. GLADSTONE said the Hon. Member should by
right have put his question to the Chancellor of the
Exchequer ; he would, how: ver, inform him that it was
not a hoax that the Government intended to make an
issue of such coin, it was not, however, a coinage in-
tended exclusively for the people of this country, but
such a coin being in request in some of the colonies, it
had been thought advisable to issue such a coin.
DISTRESS IN PAISLEY.

Mr. WALLACE, seeing the Secretary of State for the
Home Department in his place, begged to inquire if it
was true that the Commission and Commissioners, who
had been intrusted to provide for the destitute poor in
Paisley. had been withdrawn ; and, secondly, whether
they bad left means behind them to provide fir the desti-
tute population.
Sir J. GRAHAM said that the gentlemen adverted
to had not been sent to distribute public money, but
charitable fund; raised for a charitable purpose, and their
services being no longer required they had left Paisley.
The subject then dropped.
CORPORATIONS (IRELAND) BILL.
Lord ELIOT moved the third reading of the Corpora-
tions (Ireland) Bill.
Mr. O'CONNELL said that the Government were
entitled to great credit for having taken upon themselves
the bringing forward the present measure. He believed
it would be productive of great good.
The Bill was then read a third time, and passed.
NOTTINGHAM COMPROMISE.

The Order of the Day was then read, for the attend-
ince of John Walter at the bar of the House.
The SPEAKER then called upon the Clerk to read
the Special Report of the Committee, presented yesterday.
The Clerk having read the Report, .
The SPEAKER said that he had now to ask Mr.
John Walter, whether he had any further statement to
make besides that contained in the Report just read ?
Mr. Walter said he begged to assure the House,
that in refusing to attend that Committee he was very
far from attemptiing any disrespect to the House ;
neither did he feel any reluctance to lay before the Com-
mittee appointed by that House the fullest explanation
in his power of all the transactions in which he was
personally concerned as connected with the late elec-
tion for Nottingham • on the contrary, he should feel
excessively pained if he were prevented, by what he
conceived to be a paramount duty, from rendering obe-
dience to the Hcuse by declaring all he knew. He hoped
that it would be considered additional proof of his re-
spect for the House, if he abstained from consuming its
time by any lengthened defence of the course he had
' taken—a course dictated by the deepest and most con-
scientious sense of the obligation imposed upon every
subject of the British Crown, to stand upon his
constitutional rights, and to demand that he should
be tried by none but an impartial tribunal, to which
personal prejudice and affection should be alike
unknown. He had received a summons at a quarter-
past three o'clock last Friday, requiring his attendance
forthwith, with an injunction to produce papers he had
never even seen, especially the much talked of compromise.
The House Was now in possession of the grounds which
had induced him to take the course he had pursued. He
believed it would be difficult to find any parallel in the
records of a free State, any example, any
precedent, not already revoked with indignation
by the public voice, for a proceeding by which a subject
was to be arraigned before a Court, the presiding mem-
ber of which had used expressions of so much personal
hostility as the lion. Member for Bath had used respect-
ing him ; and the House would be pleased to observe
that those expressions were used, not privately,
not in a whisper, but openly and loudly in that
very House, in the superior tribunal itself
from which the inferior tribunal, over which the
Honourable Member presided, had emanated. He
trusted, therefore, that he might claim the indulgence
and protection of the House, when placed by no act of
his own in so embarrassing a position. Having with all
deference to the House made those observations, which
he hoped would be considered in the nature of a respect-
ful protest, he would submit himself to any order which
the Speaker would think proper to address to him, and
he placed himself in the hands of the House.
The SPEAKER then asked, whether any Hon. Mem-
ber had any question to ask ?
The question having been put,
The SPEAKER—Addressing Mr. Walter, said—You
may withdraw.
Mr. Walter having, accordingly, withdrawn,
Mr. ROEBUCK rose and said, that he conceived he
should best perform the duty imposed upon him, which
was a Ministerial one, as Chairman of the Committee
appointed to inquire into certain proceedings relating to
the late election at Nottingham, by,moving simply, in
the formal terms, " That Mr. Walter do attend the
Committee, and give his evidence, on to-morrow, at
eleven o'clock.,
Sir W, SOMERVILLE seconded the motion.
The qiiestion having henti puff
ilffe R. H. INGLIS rose and said, that he retained the
op tions he had already repeatedly expressed. He had,
in a Mind" occeeiote alluded to the position of the Hon.
Old Learned Member for bath, to whom he might now
refer, without being guilty of any informality, -because
he was the individual who had moved the attend-
ance of Mr,- Walter, If lie had been informal on
afeteert occasion, he trusted he should not now
be violating courtesy or. propriety by addressing himselfl
. more especially tu him, He would not enter intoarte
e
question hoW far the individual who had Intel!),
,appe
_d
a right
at the Bar of the House Might or might not
to eX
Atli' br ittid teamed Memhera‘feor Bath.
Strictly speaking, no party had a right to allude
to former discussions in that House. He hoped,
irOWeVnia that the House enforce
ly the present instance that technical ad..r. Walter
had no doubt been guilty of a breach of privile4e, in re-
ferring to a former pf,. the ,flonouraol,3 and
Learned Aehibee fbl'• Bah ; lilac lib (Si t. 11: H nglis)
hViptal and believed there was Meitilk,r
who would think Aff. Witt* had
violated any privilnik re
1 lit
But if that reterate was made, and made ,blainelestly,
awl it the Hon. Mid Learned Member for path did tint
deny that he tsVel ta.t‘l2,rtist liwltiitt ifot
understand til)Oki, principle the one hotild sit cis
jutlgt, Or the other could k Wat.Od for refusing
to appear as a eriminaJ.-.---abio abit4.?l
the Hon. and Iteatnti
thaliked
an error Mr. W not
alter wasfir Brrg_P_Ahcc.
criminal it appeared,
he was only accused. The distinction might be suffi-
ciently clear to a legal mind ; but it was
not so clear to the mpjority of that House as to make it
very important what would be used. Practically
speaking, every individual called before that
Committee, by the acknowledgment made on
the previous day, was summoned before an
inquisition.—(Hear, hear.) He used the word delibe-
rately. He was called before an inquisition, in which,
without knowing who may have been heard before him,
or who may be heard after him, ho is to answer
before an individual who had declared himself
personally aggrieved by him, He was there required to
answer any such questions as the majority of!
the Committee raiglit think fit, touching every •
matter connected with the last election .foe
Nottingham, and without heieg his accusers,
without seeing any witness, be was compelled to sub-.
ject l self to theix inuisitinn.--(lear, hear.) He

had understood that the Committee had resolved
that whenever an allegation was made against
any individual, that person should have due notice
given him of it. Would that be tolerated in any
court of law Whatever ?—(Hear, hear.) Was there any
court in England, in which such a perversion and denial
of law and justice would be permitted ?—(Cheers.)
He did not look to one side of the House or
the other; he appealed to the House generally, and he
asked them as English gentlemen, whether they would
consent to the continuation of this system ? He
had intended, a few nights ago, when he heard
that an Honourable Member had been refused
admittance to the Committee as a party, though he was
told he might be admitted if he insisted on his right
as a Member, to have tried whether this tri-
bunal, giving it credit for every impartiality and
desire for justice, ought not to conduct their
proceedings on the same principles upon which every
other Court of England, from the highest to the lowest,
conducted its inquiries with one memorable exception.
That exception was the Star Chamber—and in another
country there was another exception in the Inquisition.
Let him not be told of the case of a Grand Jury ; that
was a preliminary inquiry, and there was a wide dis-
tinction between that tribunal and the tribunal
which the House had, he ventured to say, too
hastily instituted. A traduced person required
to appear and submit himself to seven judges
Admitting that they' were of absolutely unimpeachable
character, was it fitting that an English subject should be
ca!led before this tribunal without any power of protect-
ing himself, when if it were a jury he might challenge
the Jurymen? The Hon. and Learned Member himself
(Mr. Roebuck) would not contend that he should sit as
a, juryman at the trial of Mr. Walter, and if not as a
juryman ought he sit as a Judge ? But the lion. and
Learned Member was not the only party with
whom the House had to deal. Mr. Walter
had appeared at the bar of the House, had
made his protest, and stated his willingness to sub-
mit to its order. With that order he did not, in the
circumstances of the case, think it his duty to interfere.
Who had been Mr. Walter's advisers, or whether he had
had any at all, he (Sir R. Inglis) knew not ; but, if lie
had been his adviser, he would not have counselled him
to take that course he had done. In his opinion he had
relinquished the high ground upon which he might have
stood. First, by writing the letter which he had done;
and, secondly, by the statement that he had made to the
House. Then they had a willing witness, but
a different case might occur. With that will-
ing witness they might deal as they thought fit.
but suppose an individual should claim the benefit, nut
of the law of the country, but of the principle of the law.
—(Hear.) An individual might claim to be tried before
a Jury, against no one of whom they could make an ob-
jection ; at all events not to be tried before a Committee,
the leading Members of which had pronounced an opinion
decidedly unfavourable to him. He could conceive no
situation more painful than that of a Judge, situated
like the Han. Member for Bath, and for the lion. Mem-
ber's own sake, as much as for that of Mr. Wal-
ter's, he would deprecate the Hon. Gentleman's
continuance as Chairman of that Committee. In
any, other tribunal, but a Committee of the House of
Commons, the Judge would shrink from presiding under
such circumstances. Mr. Walter having submitted to
the order of the House, he did not feel himself justified
in making any motion for the purpose of preventing the
Order of the House from taking effect.
Colonel .SIBTHORP said he cordially agreed with all
that had fallen from the Hon. Member for Oxford. He
knew not whether more to admire the able speech of
the Hon. Member for Oxford, or the straightforward
and respectful conduct of the gentleman who appeared
at the bar. He gloried in the conduct of that gentle-
man, and. if it should be the pleasure' of the House,
to visit him with its pains and penalties, he would be the
first to pay him a visit.—(Loud laughter.) A more un-
constitutional and arbitrary system had never emanated
from the British House of Commons.— (Hear, hear.)
Sir GEORGE GREY though t.the House ought not to
be satisfied with merely adopting the motion, but that
something should be done to enforce the authority of
the Committee. He could make every allowance for the
feelings of a Gentleman who had been attacked in the
loose, and therefore he had no wish that any harsh steps
should be taken ; but if he rightly understood the speech
which had been made at the bar. The Gentleman who
made it had demurred to the authority of the in-
ferior tribunal, though he bowed to the authority
of the House, and he thought it most important, they
should not 'sanction any such distinction. He would
thereford suggest that the motion should be followed up
by an admonition from the Speaker.
Sir R. PEEL said he was quite prepared to support
the authority of the tribunal which had been regularly
appointed by the House. The authority rested
in fact not with the Committee but the ,House ;
but it would be impossible for the Committee to carry
out their powers unless they come supported by the
House. Considering that Mr. Walter had expressed his
readines to submit to any order of the House, he (Sir R.
Peel) on the whole thought the best and most dignified
course to pursue would be to signify to Mr. Walter that
it was his bounden duty to attend the Committee
and give evidence. That he thought was the
best course, which had also been adopted in the
case of Mr. Fleming, who had refused to give evidence,
which he deemed inconsistent with his character as a
man of honour. The order of the House, on that
occasion, was, that Mr. Speaker should inform
Mr. Fleming that he was bound to attend the Committee
and give evidence, and also that, whatever objections lie
had to advance should be submitted to the Committee
for their decision.
After some further discussion,
The gallery was then cleared for a division, when
there appeared—
For the motion 223
Against it
Majority for the motion
[LEFT SITTING.]

-146

EAST INDIA HOUSE.
COURT OF PROPRIETORS.
ADJOURNED DEBATE ON THE AFFGFIAN WAR.
(Continued from our Third Edition of last night.)
Mr. THOMSON (in continuation) proceeded to say--
The most important communications were dreadfullY
mutilated ; and a great many had not been supplied at
all. All that was left out was important, as showini
the state of the Affghans, and containing the real
opinions of Sir Alexander Burnes. Sir Alexander
Burnes was a victim to their policy ; he (Mr. Thomp-
son) would say it—he was a murdered man. His under:
standing, his patriotism, his charity, and experience, all
said," Go not to the war." To depose Dost Mahomted
was a stroke of most unwise and unjust policy. He wr49
the man to preserve peace, and were he still in power they
might be at peace with Affghanistan. He (Mr. Thoinir.
son) was a native of this country, and a member Of
that Court, and he said that the country ought to o
PaYt
the expenses of this war.—(Hear, hear.) lie did n
care tor the dividends—(Hear, hear.) He hoped that
none of them would get their dividends next year, andi
then they would perhaps evince a more Peneefli
character. Perish the money—live the law of God.
(Hear.) What right had we to talk of revenge ?
venge, indeed, upon the Affghans For what ? ;
cause we had attacked their country, dethroned the
king, and they had resisted our attempts, we mast Is
out for revenge ; and the melancholy spectael!:th
presented of a Bishop in India finishing a speeen with
presented
the. words " Only let us get at them." He did th.
that Daniel Wilson forgot himself there. Get at tr 13,,,„;
indeed. Yes, to thiow ourselves on our knees, and fri
for mercy for the injuries which we had inflicted use
them; but he did say that the country should bear
th
expenses.—(Hear.) Instead of quarrelling with
Atfghans, he thought the Russians were more wOru.V.ti,
our ire, yet we were on the most friendly terms
them. Indeed, he thought that the Russians should be
the expenses of the war, for they certainly derived WI
benefit from it than any other people.—(Hear, ht.;
Upon the showing of Sir John Hobhouse, he (i."'
Thompson) declared this war to be an unconstitutionai.
and an inhuman war, and one of a most impolitic for
In answer to the question, however, " Who is to pay.
it?" he ansn ered, most unhesitatingly, " Great Brital°,'
—(Hear.) It was not the interests of India, but tha,g;
terests of Great Britain, that stimulated this war. •L''t
interest of India was not to spend 6d. in it. Parliatne,%
had been accountable for the war, and Parliament 135°,
right to pay for it.—(Cheers.) Whether he looked at t",,
the
the
characters to have been promoted by its success, or e
characters to have been impaired by its failure, or ad
honour of the flag—the flag of Great Britain—which ,
been planted in the country, he felt that this Wile ° r`r
tional question, and not one fbr the East India COrc
pang. He did hope that they would prosecute th'lso
suit, though he had little hopes that they would do
successfully.—(Cheers.)
The CHAIRMAN expressed his satisfaction that tl'i.
s
question had been brought before the Court of Fr°
prietors. He agreed with'the mover of the resolatio,t
that this was a question of an European character. to
(Hear.) There was one point on which it appeared
him they had not sufficiently touched. It was this—bird
INISNeiI who was extremely anxious that the siege,-/
Herat should be raised. He had nearly completed o'nt
thing to the satisfaction of both parties, when C°ll-re
Simonovich arrived, after which his exertions "'e,t
rendered of no avail, and Shah Soojah underwent a gr"-as
change. This he (the Chairman) thought was a stt°-d,
Nproof of Russian interference. It was there that GOA
esselrode, in reply to a demand for an explanation, stab'ot
tha Count Simonovich had acted against orders; .0
did they not see that it was possible for there to be L:ic
kinds of orders—one in the case of things going seanntot
and all being successful, and one in case they should lila
succeed ?—(Hear, hear.) He (the Chairman) confesli,
he was surprised to hear Lord Palmerston say th2t',,tbs,
was not a foreign question ; if it was not, how ba,"
as Foreign Minister, so much to do with it ?—(11-ehs
hear.) This matter had claimed the attention of
Board of Directors for a long time, and so long sc
as the month of April last, a remonstrance was trap
mated on the subject to her Majesty's Government. In
thought this Court ought to pursue a middle courses,"er,
not say that this was an European question altog'
r of
but that it partook in a great degree of the charact,e,s
an Indian question. He did hope, that the proceena3,7o
of her Majesty's Ministers would be such as not on Yes)
restore their finances, but peace also, in India.—(Cheetee
He should propose the addition of a word or two V 340
motion of the Honourable Proprietor, which he
Chairman) might say he hoped would be es"ti,n
almost without a dissentient voice. The people of a,
country were already very heavily taxed, and he 11,,,n
sure that the Minister of the country could Mardi}' eavr
sent to burden the people anew in order to pay ti°e:at,
penses of this war. The Hon. Member's motion at pres,.l,es
was to the effect that it was not right that the ealn,s-
of the war should be borne by India, but by the I,,ceg•
quer of the United Kingdom • ho (the Chairman) ~"de
ged to recommend that it should be altered so as t° of
vey the meaning that, it was not just that the wb°lol.-
the expenses should be borne by India, but that a P,bis
tion of them should be paid out of the Exchequer efilist
country.—(Hear, hear.) He thought it was desirable that
they should- be unanimous in the determin°iila
they came to.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. WEEDING recommended that the expenses sh°
be borne equally between Great Britain and India. ye
Mr. SALOMONS consented to insert the aniendnie
recommended by the Chairman in his resolution. 0,
31T. BARNWELL supported the view of the Directo.,
An Hort. PROPRIETOR thought it of the greattlot
portance that some means should be adopted toprAto
these great and terrible wars in India. It appeare„'„w
him, that at present the President of the Board of t'io
trol and the Governor-General caused these ""to
whenever they pleased, and they had no means
prevent it.
After a short conversation,
tss ob'
Mr. SALOMONS rose to reply. He stated that le 0.
ject in bringing forward this motion bad been Oicig
pletely answered.—(Hear, hear.) It had often strion
him as remarkable that when devastating wars were]. to
dertaken, no Member of Parliament came forelars
inquire into the foundation and the policy of Buell s' jet
—(Hear, hear.) He thought that a war carried on, t'fictr
the name of the East India Company, should not ba.A
it
ried on without an inquiry into it ; and he consider it
the most constitutional way to bring it before Iwo,
meat. The policy of this war was condemned in „els
strongest manner by every one at all conversant '4OO
Indian affairs. All on a sudden they found therasee'vp
staggered by a war of a most unheard-of char°,6o,
Was it not right, then, that they should inquire err
ther that war originated with that Court or the o°Y,Jel
ment ?—(Hear, (-hear.) He thought it was'
it was further their bounden duty to jujisni-
into the manner in which their finances had hee° a he
pated. He said that was their bounden duty, ni,ion
was glad that they had done so. He was still of 01).
that this country ought to bear the whole of then tof
pease. He would, however, consent to the amendwe
the Hon. Chairman. l
Mr. LEWIS wished to know whether the seec°l4seaq°
the motion had any power to prevent an alteran'
1,10
the
Mr.o mtion which he second
ated
TEroarrsos said th any individual metuberof s
a right to oppose the withdrawal or alteration
motion, and he should do so. ipen.
The CHAIRMAN thought this should have beend
tioned before. The Hon. Member had proms leP
agree to the amendments, and several members bt:a be
the Court under the impression that they' w°,,„
unanimous. Unless that could be done now, P- :e0
Chairman) must move an amendent gr
Mr. S. G. TUCKER said that unanimity was $
point ;he thought they should all agree. dist bet
The CHAIRMAN said he was extremely sorrY.,,,,
had been treated in this way. He was of opinly P;.;
by their conduct they were marring their objecot.sb P
was now compelled to move the amendment vcr
had requested the Hon. Proprietor to accede to. can
The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN seconded the asiencblte
Major-General ROBERTSON said he should '
the original motion. 0061
After a short conversation which ensued, the 5,,510rr0
was put, and the Chairman's amendment'wns„ Con
to be carried. A division was demanded, and
divided, when there appeared— en ',,
For the orieinal motion 0 OA'
Fur the Chairman's amendment 0.
Majority in favour of the amendment be
GENERAL LODWICK'S CASE. 2eaE° en
General LODWICK rose to move that lug
nrinted. (It will be recollected that in J uly, • co• a'ot
the case of the Rajah of Sattarah was under ti,;.olv ~°Ol
deratit:n of the Court, the Gallant General India, aloe
certain eL,arges against his colleagues in 3-11,,,iarte:00
Willoughby and Colonel Ovens, who, in I:tell-of
with himself, coistituted the Commission be 't defrie
the Rajah was exasnined, and to whom a grje'lgonoLo
unfairness was imputed. These charges } -baa den
to India, and a reply to the whole of them he
transmitted to England. The Gallant Genera, loich
prepared a reply to that rely, and it was this
, long
proposed should be printed.] glee 014
er
The Clerk read the statement. It was 11
one, and confirmed the assertions made by tb
General in July, 1841. co reto,
General LODWICK moved that the papers
should be printed. and
nee
Mr. LEWIS seconded the motion.
~s„ the PI IA
Mr. WEEDING opposed the resolution, L
that if they printed this paper, Colonel Ove'
„,i), p!7.11%,11
Willoughby would request to have their rgine
too ; and every one who spoke on the case ios 1/11
cf. Sattarah would want to have their el N.° of Pr
also. The Gallant General had an opportunitYof it
it himself, and he must oppose the printing
ivnoi
est:ion was
the sanction of the Court.•riet°t
The CHAIRMAN hoped that the Hon- r°l3ll, read
neat
have been satisfied with having his statone)riatingtholt
and &ivin,es notice that he should move the idni r
ant
meeting. He (the Chairman) must saY hr and
it would be politic to print those papers, 411 t 00'
. -thastance, he should vote against it.
C°llj- tjsollg
cm. • OLIPHANT was of opinion that . „ilea
de.
Mar" to have an opportunity- of VII
0 has
and the 133°—°
n e
character.rTahl
then put,
dared to be carried. •
The Court then adjournen at o'clock.
IMPERIAL PARI-3--
tlll

—......-40.----r-
-wiiSaitrtJ:otkMpElacS
place as
to
tAhleNtdes
HOUSE OF COMMONS, June g7'
iictl9
POOR-LAWS.
Gentleman referred. He (Sir J. Graban2,) jber of
' ft
honour of seeing the Hon. and Gallant luen?„,e Gilhoes
head of a deputation on the subject of future
pauidtahticonclidtolt ilae:bshbitee-alliilic‘
Unions, which rendered him rather cautious 111
_i.
ii.
to such interviews.—(Loud laughter.)
•. ,oligiltlit°o.-'
Captain PECHELL wished to know if the Aeon
Baronet had declined theme terYiew. with
th '.
frC93.4 the Brighton Board GuardieDs ' ~