Star.
London, England, 1808-06-03 00:00:00

SCOTCH JUDGES DILL.

The LORD ADVOCATE having moved that
the House do go into a Committee on this Bill,
Mr. BANKES objected to any further proceeding
in the Bill till the necessary information on the sub-
ject was before the House. There was no reason for
pressing the measure, it being unnecessary, and the-e
being already a sufficient fund in the hands of the
Crown out of which such salaries or pensions ought
to be granted. A Report of the Finance Committee
had been ready for nearly two months, but circum-
stances had occurred to prevent it from being laid be-
fore the House. The Report embraced this subject,
and he was anxious that the Learned Lord would
agree to postpone the business only for a week, that
the House might be in possession of the inquiries of
the Committee on :he subject.
The LORD ADVOCATE said there was as little
probability of his agreeing in opinion with the Ho.
nourable Gentleman on this subject at the expiry of a
week as at the present moment. All he wished was,
to place the Judges of Scotland, in case of their being
obliged to retire from age or infirmity, on the same
footing with the Judges of England, and that such
provision should be made from a fund which would
be permanent.
Mr. J. ABERCROMBY thought it better to wait
for the Report, and not to fix a permanent burthen
on a fund which they might afterwards see reason to
be convinced ought never to have been loaded with it.
On the question for the Speaker's leaving the Chair,
the House then divided, Ayes 63—Noes 31—Majo-
rity 32.
When strangers were re-admitted into the Gallery,
the House was in the Committee, and the Chairman
was reading the Clause entitling any of the Judges of
the Courts of Session or Justiciary, the Lord Chief
Baron, or any of the Barons of Exchequer, to retire
on three-fourths of their salary.
On this Clause, Sir JOHN NEWPORT proposed
as an afriendmcnt, that the words " or Barons of Ex-
chequer" should be omitted.
Mr. HORNER said, it was altogether a mistake
to compare the duties of the Barons of the Exchequer
in Scotland, with those that were discharged by the
Court of the same name in Westminster-Hall. The
former were merely a Board of Revenue. It lad
been justly said, that on an 'average they had not

twelve causes before them in twelve months. During
the Term before last, he was informed there were only
'three causes, and during the Term just finished not a

single one.
The LORD ADVOCATE said, the whole of the
revenue questions in Scotland came before the Court
of Exchequer. If it were once to be laid down, that
persons who from age or infirmity were incapable of
instructing the Jury, a right should be allowed to con-
tinue Judges, the complaint of there being little re-
venue business in Scotland, would soon cease to ope-
rate. It was necessary to take care that the Judges
in that Court, as well as in in every other, were

efficient.
Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY was decidedly of this
mind • but he presumed to thi'k it would hardly be
said, that the Barons of Exchequer had hitherto been
inefficient. Therefore, there could be the less neces-
sity for the present Bill so far as they were concerned.
He was informed, that it was qute consistent with
the duties of this office, that the person exercising it,
should reside in a foreign country. He expected to
have heard from his Learned Friend (the Lord Advo-
cate), some reasons for the present measure, but I e
was disappointed. The Learned Lord had said that 22
causes had stood in the paper for trial during the last
Term ; but every Gentleman present knew, that there
was nothing extraordinary in this, as not one of them
might have been insisted in.
The SOLICITOR GENERAL of SCOTLAND
thought it invidious to make any distinction between
4 the Barons of Exchequer, who were Judges of one of
the Supreme Courts, and the Judges of the other
Courts. The labour, unquestionably, could not be
compared with that of the Judges of the Court
Session ; but still their duties were important. 7 hey
had even to controul the grants of tl:e Minister him-

self.
Mr. J. ABERCROMBY said it had been admitted
that the Barons of Exchequer in Scotland came in
place of the Old Lords of the Treasury. The duties
of course, which devolved on them, :-e:e not, and
could not he judicial. The House was row called on
to give Tensions to the name of Barons of Exchequer,
for in no other way did they resemble the persons in
this country exercising judicial functions. There were
many offices of a ministerial nature, the duties of
which were important, but still the persons holding
them were not allowed to retire cn salaries.
Mr. ROSE supported the clause as it stood.
Mr. BANKES declared, that all the explanations
made by Gentlemen acquainted with the duties of the ,
Barons of Exchequer in Scotland, did not satisfy his
mind that their offices were judicial. He could con-
ceive it perkctly possible that they might go by the
same name, and not have the same duties to perform
with the Barons of Exchequer in Ireland. A person
!night-once belong to a Court of Justice, and yet his
character not be judicial. As for instance, his Right
Honourable Friend opposite was Chancellor of the
Exchequer, and head of that Court ; and, on the
principle now contended for, must be entitled to a
salary on retiring from his office ; but this, he pre-
sumed to think, would hardly be maintained.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL Of SCOTLAND explained.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER.
said, that it was a matter of ncr minor consideration
that, by the Act, the Judges held their situations
Islam der bone se gerserint ; and that the case of the
Sheriffs of Counties in Scotland, alluded to by an
Honourable Gentleman, was not at all analogous, as
such officers were not thereby removed from any pro-
fession in the duties of which they had been pre-
viously employed. He denied that these pensions
were so much for the benefit of the individuals con-
cerned as for the benefit of the public, by securing an
adequate and uninterrupted administration of justice.
Mr. WINDHAM said, that the question ought to
be argued upon the general principle of grants upon
superannuation, and net upon the strair.ed analogy of
reducing the Scots Judges to the same standard as
the Judges of this country. Such a h ass.m:lat'oa re-
minded him of the cld fable, " How we apples
swim." And as to the p'urality of duties, the divi-
sion of such labour was more like the division of bu-
siness between Jack and Tom :—" What are you
doing Jack ?"—" Nothing, Sir." " What are you
doing Tom ?".." Helping Jack, Sir." (a laugh).—
Let Gentlemen speak of it as they would, it was, after
all, nothing more than spreading a small substance
upon a great extent. It did appear to him to be a
provision not at all called for.
Mr. ROBERT DUNDAS thong} t it was a suffi-
cient answer to the objections why the Welch Judges
were not pensioned as well as the Scotch, to remind
the House that the Welch Judges had, with their ap-
pointment, the benefit of their practice, and of such im-
portance was that privilege considered, that there were
many English barristers who would not accept of the
place of a Scotch Judge, and who would yet be very
glad to get that of a Welch Judge. Gentlemen at the
other side had had recourse at the same time to two
arguments that destroyed each other. It was argued
that the place was a sinecure, and should not other-
wise have a pension on retirement, and at the same
time it was apprehended that the Scotch Judges would
be anxious to retire and enjoy the profit of a pension
without the trouble of the office. This was saying, it
was and was not a sinecure ; either must be given up :
it must be admitted, either that, if it is a sinecure there
would not be such inducement to retire, or that it is
not a sinecure, and therefore worthy of a future com-
pensation, when the Judge retires through old age or
infirmity.
The Committee then divided on the amendment.
Ayes 41—Noes 84—Majority against amendment 43.
On the admission of strangers, the House was receiving the Re-
port of the Committee of Ways and Meow, and the different
Resolutions were severally read and agreed to, and a Bill ordered
accordingly.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER acquainted the
House, that, in consequence of some accidental inadvertency, the
BUI, which had gone through that House and been assented to
by the Lords, for continuing the Commissioners of the Public
Expenditure in the business relating to the department of Mill-
i tary Inquiry, had been left out in the commission held yesterday,
and that of course, not having received the Royal Asssot, it had
not pass'd into a law. The preceding Act under which the Com-
missioners sat expired yesterday. He hoped, therefore, that under
such peculiar circumstances the House would suffer a new Bill to
be brought in, which might be read a first and second time, and
then committed.
The SPEAKER observed on the novelty of the proceeding,
and thought it should be marked with the serious notice of gm
House. At the same time, that in consideration of the accident
stated to have occurred, the House might with reason be disposed
to yield to the urgency of the case, without pursuing it to any-de-
gree of jealous scrutiny.
Mr. PONSONBY thought it would he expedient to make a
special entry of the ease upon the Journals.

The SPEAKER did not conceive the statement of stfhatt;
weight to warrant a proceeding of so grave a nature.
Leave was then given to bring in a Pill to revive and continue
an Act of the 45th of the King, for appointing CommissionLrs
Public Fapenditure ; which was brue4ht in accordingly, read
first and second time, committed, and the report received.
Mr. GRATI'AN presented two Petitions, which were laid pp
the Table--the one from certain Grocers and Spirit Retailer; in
Dublin, praying relief against the operation ef the Spirit Retaa
Prohibition Act ; and the other front certain Prisoners, confined
for debt in the Sheriff's Prison, in Dublin, praying rditi,
The Irish Glebe Clouse Bill was thrown out in consequence of
an amendment by the Lords; but it appvaring that their Lot&
ships had no intention to encroach on the privileges of the House,
leave WAS given, on the motion of Sir A. WEL-LkSLEY, to brief
in another Bill to the same etTect.
The Military Conunissioters 11.11 was read a third lima and
passed.

LONDON VACCINE iNsTITVTION.
Sir THOMAS TURTON presented a Petition from the Pro.
prietors of the London VUClfie institution, detailing their service,
in the great cause of Vaec.ination, noel praying the support of that
House.
IR ft tre the Pet it ion was read,
Mr. I'i.'l.l.Flt rose and observed with er.niderable warmth,
that a grus7.er forgery had never been submitted to that House.
The SeIiAILER interrupted the fionottralde Member, and re-
minded him that the Petition had rut been yit rt ad ; and that
when it was, the House would be better nabled w judge of the
nature of its contents.
Mr. FULLEIt resumed his Mt amid considerable laughter.
Sir 'rURTON (the Petition having been read) moved, that
it do lie on the table, when
Mr. FULLER again rosessad Valorized for his abii7tui:caaut:osa:
of rising before. ' He said that this la:nines, was a gross cheat ; a
palpaisitriek t 9 swindle the public ; or, if it was not absolute
swindling,it went very near the wind. When they
to solicit his-subscription. he thought they were at the !arid of
some convivial corporation (a Laugh ),but what did they turn nut to
be? A parcel of Quakers ur Presbyters, or whatever they wzre
called—they had got at first five guineas frcm him—but tlte no.
went he dttected them, he thrtataned them with a Bow-street Of-
ficer, and a charge for swindlieg ; and the dread of detection soon
frightened them into a re-deiivery of his fve guineas. What a
shame then was it to see their cause espoused by any man in that
House—a Member of Parliament should be asitzmed of having
any thing to do witirsuch fellows (a laugh). lie was nut to sup.
pwe, th t :he Honotirable Baronet shared in their gains (a laugh).
That G. mleman might laugh if he ple;ls,d, I.r.d kok and spent
'need e. Wee a lawyer (a laugh,), but it was a poor way to spew
hi ..s. If ctl, ar.d to make a noise and stir fur notoriety (alaugh).
H: hoped the House wou:d not cuut:ten:.nce such it piece of
awn )ling.
Sic THOMAS I'URTON was sorry the Honourable Gentle.
mast was nct in as good lit to tun with himself, .is the House
seemed to be with him. lle would say, however, that it was not
for that lit nvurable Gentleman to excite his resanunent. The
petitien was taen ordered to lie on the table.
VACCINAIION.
Mr. ROSE observed, that the promoters of Vaccination were
entitled to considerable reward. The Vaccine Inoculation had
prevented much mortality, and having himself been a witness of
many benefits arising from the invention, 1w considered ithis duty
to promote the institution in such a manner that the virus might
be administered in a proper way. He had no partiality for one
professional Gentleman more than another; hut ht tlas anxious
that there might be an Institution for promo:leg the system, and
that the practice might be placed under the direction of the Cols
lege of Physicians. He was induced to make these observations
in consequence of what had fallen from an Honourable Member
on Vaccination ; but it was his intention to defer his Motion on
the subject till Thursday next.