The Sun.
London, England, 1842-02-08 00:00:00

NIOrtN IN(4 SUN

Xellts It- Was desirable that any measure affecting the ! allow the Member foiathe-COuniY to hays;-..,.istai-;svit-iiiites
iNe,lrlacteo.ju.nr,ri diction ofthe Judicial Committee of the speech in reply to his.—(Hear, 0)3-'1 -'
.-L'igji-.) Did
c.si
shnuld be postpmed for the present. ' the Hon. Member eonsitld that the practice which he
j , .
E:
?_,,.,i, . , .
a.
It
ic.lo
ri
nt theinc iitAt. le
ce:
‘ayrl n ::s
Ile }"diev 4 1
iErntAiatkin;ct!siTeetorbyussitnaetses. of the ! wished ti:, ti':lA4.blish. would (if his own, Pijl4',Ve I'veile
WITH TEXAS. tarried out to -the fullest extent) entirel,A, destrby the k-
tv?!..9;:cONNELL wished to ask if the Commefb- gislative functions of the Rokis., I Cor it was not possible
tilt ~.t.ygt-rty. en toored tos,bEltdiie Government,_c. in the course - a 'atltilie that they could do anything
e -Xernibto of " been conr-rmed by.the
~ but diteUSS petitions ?—(Hear, hear.)
.But, after all,
v".` - What benefit would the Hon. Member's friends in Kelso
Present(;.— _...
;;Sir Tvirt ? for instance, derive from a six hours' debate upon the
• rEI!.:Li;--:No, I think not petition ?—(Hear.) The Hon, Member thought they
do '•
A_IA. ULE wished to ask if it was the inter- modewould of doing , Cininen OF SCOTLAND. indirectly benefited by the public attention
being brought to their case. But the legitimate
.4,4lV_lclPil.9ght Hon. Baronet, or some other AleMber (Hear, that was by . a specific motion.—
hear.) The number of petitions presented
i.7_(,,.,i11‘ri-c,leSty's Government, to briugl. in any meat- the year before last was upwards of 18,000, and their
ftliuTV reference to the state of the Church of Scot- titles alone occupied a folio page closely printed. Now,
-131 r ,013EPT PEEL would, when he had arty ,
"t, •
istu.Llycnize-Artsre in contemplation if the discussions upon each of these occupied
only two minutes (and he was sure that the
frorn.heti.llc.7A-, 11-omurable Member for Greenock, would nst be
0f.1154L0,6.1.,c,a1l -upon. give milk notice °V • contented to 'restrict even his own speech to that time, ft,
ta°jePsPtyolsit'icuneN.? It was hartilY ' say nothing of' an answer), what other business could
ernmaest to admit , be got through ? If the Hon. Member had no sympathy
si)aettetite""rin!ttie".naeantureTllenndtei°d".. of. trlnging' forward a men- : for the 40 or 50' Bills brought in last June and July by
ft(il'i;et
lilts itintr 'co. Should any such measure his friends, the lateMi Ministers sters surely he might have some for
o,(ll°.anctb-iLv..'ould give ample notice of it be- the private Bills of his own friends in Scotland. Besides
there was an understanding that petitions of importance
For himself, he must admit
• ht be iacloded in the Votes and discussed. But a
M10.110°7°7, at prese-nt arinst theintroductron of any , raig „ , . ,
easure.—(Hwir, large majority of those so printed had never been brought
ear.)
al T CIIL RCH EXTENSION. on. On all considerations he should oppose the motion.
hl-,,,1r'11{- 41VLS was about to put a question to whichhe Mr. ROEBUCK said the sole argument brought
1,4:t it.e shOuld obtain -a
more definite answer than had • ' f • Hou. Friend • that 't
against the proposition o his mi.was,i .
/,‘,..- given by the hi ht Hon. Baronet to his Right I Would cause an absorption of the time of the House.
Now he would suggest to the Honourable Gen-
a;e•urtatior.ie,ndp_ ( r
.t..aughter)--and so was desirous of : tleman opposite a course that he (Hr. Roebuck)
(hfara In 'rem the lion. Baronet, the Member for might now pursue under the present regulation, if lie
p.91161'2 ifs..t WaS his intention to bring under the were desirous of absorbing the time of the House.
411 i, e,l'ation. of the Rouse, during the present Ses- Whenever a petition was proposed to be laid on the
-il,tinteos-übject of Church extension ? table, he might divide the House on the
intentie BERT INGLIS said it certainly was his question that it' "do lie" on the table ?
to the n t 6 call the attention of the present Parlia- On that point he might divide the House, as he might
that of tsililebieet of Church extension as he had done
ini his late Parliament ; for Ire had never wavered wish to pia his vote on the records of the House. The
Hon. Gentleman also said that he had a right to make
but
llr opinion as to th ' - ' Clerk read every petition presented to the House,. i.t
• B lA-1„ e iMportance of that measure.
Sir R. iv," ES—During the present Session ? was it ever done ? The Hon. Gentleman truly said it
Sess• GINS--In th' - `the
lon.was physically impossible Gentlemen.. in this respect
e course of present were -regulated by the - feelings of the House, and
would not come forward to discuss the subject matter of
petitions contrary to the feeling of the House. He
. would-put it to the Honourable Gentleman whether he
was not much more likely to obtain a clear and pro-
per understanding of the Opinions of the people
of - this country, if the proposition were adopted.
Every man in that House did not fancy him-
self a speaker, and was not prepared to come
down to the House with a set oration ; but
he does come down with the petition of his consti-
tuents, ang prepared with their statements as contained
in the petition : he gets ready those statements
in a certain form of words,' and is able to ex-
press them to the Members of the House, and the
people
l of state that
country. He comes prepared to
much, and not to make a set oratioh ; and thanks be to God,
he did net.— (Laughter.) He comets to set forth the opinions
of his constituents, . and .that was much better done
viva voce; than by the bare form " let it lie on the table."
Under the present regulations, the people of this country
do not petition—(Hear,- hear, and laughter)—he would
even say that they cannot petition. The Hon. Gentleman
had said that during the laSt year there were 18,000
petitions ; how many of them were on one subject ?
That of Church Extension, perhaps, or on the Corn-laws?
Did he suppose that - if ha (Mr. R.) had 20 petitions to
present on the Corn-laws, he- should make twenty
speeches.—(Hear, hear.) But itif the Hon. Member
was impressed with the peculiar importance of the
petition, he ought to come forward and state . it.
It was said that he might state the substance
of the petition, but that would not answer the
purpose. The substance of . the petition merely
stated the grievance complained of, but did
not state why-----did not state the reasons of that com-
plaint. Three minutes would often be sufficient for that
purpose, but the present practice put a stopper upon
Persons trying to make the petitions of the people
heard. He would go further, he wonld say that no question
could be thoroughly discussed either by the House or the
country, but upon- the old established principle. He would
appeal to the Hon. Member for, Oxford for his assist-
ance. That Hon. Member was a. Conservative—now the
principle of Conservatism, as he (Mr. Roebuck) understood
it, was an acting upon the precedents of former times,
an abiding by the usages of our ancestors. Now,
since the Reform Bill, a new practice had been
introduced in regard to the petitions of the
people, one somewhat smacking of the • times
in which we lived, and yet the Honourable Mem-
ber for Oxford had suffered it to pass unnoticed.
He (Mr. R.) was now arguing, upon Conservative
principles, for a return to the wholesome practice
of our ancestors, and he trusted that, for consistency's
sake, the Honourable. Baronet the Member for Oxford
would vote with him: The wants of the people Would
never -be made known to the House while the pre-
sent practice was - persisted in. The newspapers
could not- make them known' to the House the
House knew- nothing of newspaper?. He was there; as
the representative of his constituents, to state their griev-
ances to the House. :It was said-he might make a motion.
To this. he would reply, that lie might not have an
opporttinity, lie m igba not be able to speak ; although per-
fectly able to -state the feelings of his constituents to the
House, he might not have the courage to make a set oration.

SPANISH CLERGY. • .
Lord J., IIANNERS wished to know whether it
Vas th 'intentioni of the .Right lion. the Lord Mayor
'1
1-)s11..,11
_e:to,, submit. any motion to_ the House on
thc2
laish ,i,ioejre t t that persecuted body of men,
ie Cg the Spa-
to::'ffrir' he b
titled to the syrapthheylseoWf ta'sh
CleriNjedELL said it was his intention to do
no culasses. of men more en-
COLONI.A.f., INiApp,,°T DUTIES.
lir•
L kBOI.T ' - CHERI] ,lied the Hon. Gentleman
Oh, Gladstone) - what coursea: ' he intended to pursue
with re stone)
to a.,noiiee,tvh;ch he saw his name
4Ct4elled, fort o-Morrow respecting the duties payable
c 9 .allfeles imp-Sited into British Colonies. He
at
that he only intended to lay his plan on.
the of the &Ouse and not to ask the House to
;),(P0,r4e5...8 an. cTinion On it. This was the usual and the
the'"uktenent , course, and he apprehended it was
''lle thy,
non. Gentleman intended to adopt. .
11site• GLADSTONE said the Hop. Gentleman was
1 •
correct in .his supposition. He should lay
"'T_. Plan fully before the House before he asked it to
he alt vote. on
the subject.
roil ,-`l,l3Propriation Acts . Amendment Bill went
,tiit,Bll Committee,
ta.'tionitio.Gf lIT
01?
11,,tiobas
[l;7
4r• WAL
consi-
DISCUSING PETITIONS.
de . LACE rose to bring under the
had
House the motion of which he
ts.e4 notice, relative to the right of discussing ther-
People at the time of their presentation.
I) B.'l- leave, in the first place, to state the former
jactlee of the House. He had had a seat in that House
t',11,,,11ee the year 1833, and it was the custom, for some
iate subsequent to that period, for Members to enter_
Ilet'iltletails respecting the opinions advanced in'the
..aw I°lls of their constituents. That had been the
qlipA:fr „years, and it had prevailed under. the Speaker-
:,l. thatlr Manners Sutton. He did not mean to
Pkr r„,, great inconvenience had not arisen from
rue4;_e-rsPtlshing this privilege beyond the bounds of
to ap_."-ee, while he did mean to say that the refusal
tl,„ `7" :Members to speak at all upon the presenta;
i,tot petitions was unjust to their constituents, and
n
that p-au irnproper suppression of public opinion
course,
last kuu-Se• It appeared to' him to be a selfish
Tere
I‘, ad of a direct discharge of a public duty. h
Nit' n° doubt, many persons in the. House
ty t 0 that their time should not be occupied
thc,-, Presentation of petitions, but who Wished that
at w allho
01:1,i1.1,11°11:1(1 -.merely be laid on the table
go w
a '
few words of
th,l
with ere ready, at most, to allow Now of the Rouse,
that was not
kINItc, 0
illi,,la itl tNI:,
Ill'erhaytheer, to be read.
wish', be treated
--(Hear, hear.) Y
e- the table,
people expectedTthheicr petitions
'Lad ,e see them lying in hufidieds upon
did not
t.ttie-'lllnied into a bag, while not the slightest at-
Intetied4 had
been pa'id to 'their contents. lie
1 t of
thch. 4tio
feo,mplain• in .
,any way. - of the.
,conduc .
duty tra-
Posm e Clek, ,who duty discharged the Quile he him. It was the Act of Parliament of__wllincshe.
that theree°lliplained. He had already told the House
Perv, had been a time when the petitions .of the
laEt •i,were treated with the greatest respect. But- the
nallv. aP,iarnent--a Parliament to, which he irld.w'
par'. 'et it was no honour to belong—a do-nothing,
f whichalla inefficient . Parliament,
ikv he. was • ex •• dingly sorry that
t 0 . the .
he
labours
b o
hadur s
• qedhi, • . Lee
Parliament it was
1,z1;c1,
~ -4 tinui and his health—that
tit•(.l.l ~.);i-li,Ped the rights of the people in regard to
44 4:4'sk'n of their petitions in the House. He
the
Ii nlean• to advocate any waste of the time
'llitie,' cul the contrary, he wished to dischartgoe his
`'"tlstit 4 far as he was concerned, with justice
muzzled,
1111,1 treats; but he did not wish to be
iillce tiltui.zled
in that House
he- had been
He had de-
;leasrseid the
7th of °eft)
.I'. ehruary, 1839.
t of each preceding
ti.4l°:seelitotthhautt Iste,:wmoulldeneecmallenthe attention of the
1) I"'l.lorit uncleet, but he had had such rinesepileftrofoinr
Ilessing it Y of the Rouse, that he had refrained arliata
..uPon them He no sooner
14 no e•-'' s'Leeeed ' which' w• as
was strong
that, her to d ed by another,saw the late
c.O • e reso . 0 what it might
.under the
ii-aritisidcratirj ,Nerl to bring this question.
which
deem expedient,
11,01,141 %Isl.' qf the House. The Parliament_
__e
-pt‹. IN yes the
taken away the
the
0t,?,-..„'
shag rsgnated a Whig Parliamen
liberties
Parliament; the
th
rip that "Nriated a Tory Parliament. 1
most
or 'et for theu'A:lit would show which had
mt!etitiotiin hiherty
tOleges. k wuieh he held to be one of the highest
at
of the subject—for the right
he
_Prescilt.,. hat new Members might observe
Oexpected tune was no criterion as to what might.
e-;11N i, at a later. period of the session. At
11)---tre;
,Z,5e.r...? upon their good behaviour—(A
ot. ti, ii,, the,
1,,,_.7 only at the -commencement of the
to
ti . 'iltes ' had
not got into that immense. run
ttre • ,which rila,d • Member anxious
‘l, another _ e every
der heathe , . out
ef hi, way, The time
cashed un-
it
the Astitions of ti-e people would be Pus-
1 • in a manner that would quite
Ilew 1 `able i ' . '
would come
itly:-etlihers. ma nn
r, a• twlt I was quite aware howeas
, 11 ~, the public busine s should
hetbe. L.:rilotAD:eo.O
secured
their
pasre
kali.r Possible, and he was a: -nn •
important astonish
commerle
that that object
ci6-etel lee:: :rhs-ein-xpuir°ffieus anxious
t Ministers of
1)1.4,4, li` was still more anxious that the rights . t
coUld. possibly
d
4illttp.bes of the people should not be infringed upon. A
takj
,f,,,e Period of the session when the months of June
(1.11 'Y ha • •-' ' 50 to 60
I s a ' arrived, there would be from
buN loonth brono•lit b,f' • the 'House at least, if,
rl pres,4t , ~,.. b° fore (loll k.rovernment acted their predecessors.
as .
Pet' • e' MAI NI I • ld be told that when.
~,, itt,o4 , • i em iers won
it
''Rht I, "a 8 desiNd to be particularly considered
that h. -e printed with the Votes. He begged to tell them
_
tall?)., disputed
to have them printed had been success ,
/Vilt.ell he pre in the last Session: In the case petition°fda that it
'tishoulii he
i.,P;reented from Kelso he move
ordered
11. e t:r•i'ted with the Votes, and it was
S' • se; his
upon the list, but the
Niott iv as- name was put
had oPPcu•-
tunit \-,as turned over, and he neveran
Ili •Y C't brinr' 'petition. It sometimesl)l).lied , :. bulg on the .
Od from
1";e0tlai,•• d 'lequentl,y with the petitions presen ~.
''l)al' '1;114 the Clerk was unable to read the names.
's' Ally ' .
F the places
frAil fll,fin tell hire that if the names o ,
tlltie'ty•lcuee 'petitions had been presented were not read me ""'- "se distineily, d if Hort. Members did not un-
fro67,..i-what the nam'easnwere, or where the places. were,
n'e,b, si ,
.said t, , len petitions were presentet.,
1 that it could
(11,1„1,,,, that tiny were properly presented? If the House
lii)t.l::.ki,uow where they were presented from, it could
fiN-11-44... 1 that petitions were presented at all; thep ,
„4111 .pet.": (Mr. Wallace) desired that in presenting
•he
bet
,Blons to the House, for the future, there should
lk a discus strinp,;ent rule, no matter whether there was to
he th s'll%ion upon the subject or not. The rule should
v. • at th
,enerai, . ose wbo presented petitions
should , state,
tititis, '3, their contents, the prayers of those pea-
s thouiciaind the i.bjets or wishes of the petitioners. That
w4tkne striQtly the right of the Members of the House,
Pi4e,. l• a collision of opinion or a discussion had taken
that
,lle (NIL 'Wallacedid not-hesitate in saying ,
th' Pre f deal• .**l the rirhts of the '
Pr?eple sent mode oing ni.,l
lc.,lis, Iva' unjust towards them, end inconvenient to the
for ~' 44,1 he hoped that they should he attended to
tl)
set Thoug,h he was not in a majority he would take
sense
of the House upon the subject, he would
b4tche to the the
of motion he had given, and would
eent,,, "ge a word of it. An Honourable Member then
tav
„anicated something to Mr. Wallacceproceeded to
shl.;-..' '441. he would adultthe scar gestion ighis Honourable
lieud wh 1 . g .
oal,{ : o lad just told him that the rule of th! Hou_se
thr,"o)e read ea
the subject of presenting petitions; he
1141, i_ere submitted that that was the ' proper time to
th,„ the rule of the House read, and lie
wished
lacalier would direct the Clerk to do so.
Itspeetit4eY having read the Order of the House with
41,. „? !he presentations of petitions.
Nit,,,":4LLACE said that he thought-the most coin-. 1
ti,4
.1' uay would be for him to move that that reso u
ti,)4.:li,euld be rescinded, as that would bring the ques-
41-", re properly before the consideration of the House.
Sir
,-;1,9E13111Cli. seconded the motion.
tictoaill'uEßT INGLIS thought that the Hon. Gen-
t
~ was noaware of the absorptioa of the time. of
e Horse 1
1., _ v. would be occasioned if his motion
1,,.t
~,,neressful. The number of petitions. presented
`'tip -'slon was 16,801—(Hear)—and. if each of these
a.‘•-• • . • .
i,-Lu.lipttuted bv only one speech, of two minutes,
' Would be • .I'l .f
ki_
in.ipossi e or the House to attend to
i„...T, other• busness. • But surely if the Hon attend
Member .1
vr"elitetaTetition from lielao he could not refuse to

• .
He would make use of the argum- entnm ad hominern to
the Hon. Member for Oxford, and claim his vote for this
motion upon Conservative grounds, as a return to the
practice of our forefathers.
Mr. BROTHERTON' thought it necessary to give
his reason for voting as he intended. He had as great a
regard for the right of petition a 3 any Hon. Member
could have, and would be the last to say anything to abridge
it, but he was sure the present motion would not
answer. the purpose proposed. He had seen this
House, before he was a Member of it, when
the prM)oSecl plan was in full operation ; and
he could. state that at that time it turned out a per-
fect failure. The petitions were neither noticed by the
newspapers nor by the Members of the Honse; the time of
the -House was occupied by a few loquacious Members,
so that it was utterly impossible for the majority of the
Members to present the petitions entrusted to their care.
Ile felt bound to declare that he had attended in that
diouse ten days successively, and he had never hadan op-
portunity- of presenting a single petition; at this time he had
seen a great number of Members with petitions, which
they were anxious to present, and a feeling of justice
erevented him from presenting those that he had.
He considered that it would ber quite impossible that a
presentation of petitions could be carried on if every
Meinber was allowed to make a speech upon every
petition—(Hear, hear, hear). With respect to the
observations that had been made as to the disorderly
manner in which petitions were generally pre-
sented, he must be allowed to say that he
considered the manner in which petitions had
been presented latterly was most orderly. Every
Member had an opportunity of stating what were
the contents of the petition which he had to present,
and he thought that that was quite sufficient ; but as
to supposing that every Member was to state his own
opinions on these petitions, he considered it quite absurd.
He was of opinion that the people had a right to have
their petitions heard and attended to, but he did not
think that that could be effected by allowing Hon. Mem-
bers to make long speeches upon their presentatiop.
Mr. O'CONNELL considered that the petitions of the !I
people were treated in that House with a levity which I
was unbecoming. He admitted that the late practice in
the presentation of petitions was an inconvenient one.
He thought that a middle course should be adopted, be 7
cause he could not but think that the practice at pre-
sent adopted was insulting to the people at large.
The House ought to refer the question to a Committee,
which would doubtless devise some meae3 of giving a
more substantial hearing to the petitions of the people,
so that no one should have a right to complain,
as at present, of the mockery and insult of throw-
ing bundles of petitions together on the table,—
(Hear, hear.) He hoped, therefore, that the House
would rescind its resolution, and follow it up by
some plan which would neither trespass upon the public
time nor give the people reason to complain.
Sir ROBERT PEEL said that if any insult were
offered to the people through the present mode of pre-
senting their petitions —if there were a mockery of 'cere-
mony, to use the words of the Honourable Gentleman,
by throwing bundles of petitions on the table, that was
the fault of the Members who so presented them—
(Hear, hear)—because the rules of the House
imposed no such necessity. ,He would refer to the
rules which had been adopted by the majority
of the last Parliament. The rules said that any
Member presenting a petian must state the place
whence it cane, e 3 that if an Honourable Member were
not able to pronounce the names of Irish and Scotch
places,the rules gave h im liberty to learn to pronounce them
properly—(Laughter)—which it was his duty to do, not
that of the Clerk.—(Hear.) The Member presenting a
petition was bound also to state the number of signatures
and the material contents of the petition. If the
petition complained of personal violence, and re-
quired immediate redress, it might be entertained
and discussed forthwith.—(Cries of " Hear.") And if
the subject were of a special nature, it might be printed
in the Votes, and a notice of a motion on it
be given. Now, if they were to return to
the late system, there would be no limit
to the presentation of petitions.—(Hear, hear.)
It was true that, in the abstract, every petition had a
right to be read by. the Clerk, and attended to by the
House ; but it was clear, that if the Clerk was to
read every petition, their whole time wouid be absorbed,
and if Members would listen carefully, all he could say
was, that this would be different from their usual course.
—(Laughter.) But now the question was, did the
increased.eoulede then ot infer from
During
adoptedth ea
et
th et
N,n,
Since
mode diminish the confidence of the people ?
,se
rhagade
74010 thee aeh
increase 8'
number was oumSbeessrio*onfs ptheteiitrioanN
essi oonf.
petCiteiortoasi,nltyhatththeye
petitioners were dissatisfied
with the present mode of pro-
ceeding. He (Sir It. Peel) rbe ;eyed there was no alternative
between adhering to the rule and the complete relaxation
individual of it. If they permitted
Members to exer-
cise their discretion the consequence would be con-
tinued debates on the
presentation of petitions. Members
an
would be much less anxious to do justice to the object of
the petitions entrusted i
to
own individual and them, than to state their
personal opinions. That would
necessarily provoke reply; reply would provoke re-
joinder, and they would b
e involved in the same diffi-
culties as they experienced
from the same source some
twelve or thirteen years ae
Mr. ROEBUCK here madeo some observation across
the table, which was not heard
Sir ROBERT PEEL proceededin the gallery.
order was made in February, i 832, to say the present
ship of Mr. Manners Sutton,' during the Speaker-
to lead to the prevention of debatest the intention of it was.
question, however, really was, what on petitions. The
conform-
able to public feeling and topublic should be
As far public feeling was policy on this score.
concerned, lie (Sir R. Peel)