The Sun.
London, England, 1816-05-04 00:00:00

ROYAL MARRIAOE

Lord CARTIAREA gave nonce, that on Thurs.:
day he should move for an Address Of Congratu-
lation toltis Royal Highness the Prince Regent
on the marriage of the Priticess Charlotte. ,
Mr. WYNNE. thought the earliest possible mo-
ment ought-to he seized for l'oting the Address.
It would be more confortitable to the rules of'the.
House to proceed with it immediately, than to let

•
the •business stand over to the day named by the
Noble Lord.—(Cries of " Move, move !")
It aaortlerteo mo
d,tbnciay
that the Horse on its rising
adjourn
Wit. LIST:
Lord CASTLERgA6H (burin;; moved that the
House .6hould take into its colisideintiou the re-
port of the Committee on the Civil List) rose,
pursuant to the notice he bad given,
to move -for
leave to brio}; in ts. Bill, for the better regulation
of the Civil List. The subject he stated to be
one of great difficulty, from its com2licated na-
ture ; that it was hardly possible to make it so
clear to Gentleosen, who did not give more iitten-
tion to the details of it than most Gentlemen
could do,. as to'enableahem to see all its coin-
binations ; and it was 'also-one of great delicacy,
from the eiretnustance of Rs' bearing neon the
personal expellees of • the -Sovereigns, which were
necessarily looked:at with a jealous eye in a free
. (wintry like -this': •It was painint -to Cuter upon.
this question; as a• 'notion prevailed, that the
greater portion of what-wai voted cur the Civil
List, was. voted for the public splendour or do-
. mesric enjoyments of the, Crown, He wished to
put the question on its ,proper footing ; he did not
deny that a emusiderablepart of the slim given to
the Civil feist
.was appropriated to support the
splendour. of the Sovereign ; but the greatei por-1
thin of it was as much voted for the public ser-
vice, as the grants tut the Army and Navy.
proposed, ill th'e Esfioutteubirch he !vas about (9
Sisliniit to the "House, to omit the grants 40 the
jwtior branches of the Royal Family,as also the
Nnosor Ystablishment, which arose out of the
calamity of our'haviog. at present a Sovereign
in-
'capable of ili,char;4ing the functions of Royalty.
This rlons, it would, be, found, thatout:of,the
.80111 of 1,339,00.01. voted iot the ;Civil List, the:
''charge immediately creates( by the splendour_ or
the dootesticc:OtnfOrt;s fifAlre'Sovereign, amounted'
mite) more than .409;000/. thfis = sum
_be M..
chided thC.60,0001; tor the privy puySe ; and do-
jog this, it would be, seen, the charge inunedl7
ktrelycFcat.ed b' the 6,roWn amounted tit but
409,0:001.. Which wetsnot bne-,lliird. of the whole'
List.t7Some _of
.the debts on the Civil
•, List had certainly been incurred by the 'expense
of the Saver'eigii 'be was prepared to state
that the great mass of th,ern grew out of the pub-
lieservice. These were unavoidable, front the,
'fluctuations in the public expenditure connected
With the Civil List. "I' he allowances to
i‘linisterti.had not exceeded 200,0001. from 1804
to 1811, when we were excluded front' almost
everTPart•otthe'contincht, •Thely- now exceeded
•that aum by about 150,0001, from the altered state
of Or, political relations. The great additional
charge ihns thrown on one branch of the Civil •
List woad give the kloitse some idea of the (Ufa,
.ciaty of confieing at all times the eApenditure
..within the bontids whiehlad been prescribed for
it. The expellee 'of other loyal. Vartlilies be
wished to be looked at ; not that be meant-to cow--
tend the system acted' upori in foreign: 'countries.'
was- to be taken as a model for England ; birt-
thought it but fair that his:estimates atottld
compared with the chargessostaitied elsewhere.—
In Prance it would be seen that about 1,000,0001.
'(24,000,000,of livres) was distinctly set apart for ';
the ftovnl Family, Out,of.khis aunt no part of the
exflonCes of the public service was to ha alefraye&
—it Was fairly to set against the 409,0001. claialed
for the Support of the CroWn•in'Englan4.•and
sides the 1,000,0001'. whics he had mentioned, the..
French princes received krgessgrtind otherallow«-
ances from thee nation.. 11 4e actual eqtticesTa
the Sovereign had become greater than they. were
50 years ago, be contended this coolittbot etelte'
surprise, for.h9wvould, any Andividnal or/Sove6-
reign be expected to require no more to support
his establishment now, than was sufficient at the
period to which, he 'had referred ? It ought, also, ,
to be always retnembered,that the S'tivereign, troth:
motives of economy, bad eatliirr his reign ac-
cepted, a. fixed sum- in lieu of that provision Which
• bad been formerly Made. for the Clown. lf, in-
stead of doing this, the Sovereign had retaiKedibe
improvable funds set apart for.-his .piedeeesSbr;-
George 11. he would have had 110 'Occasion to come-
to Parliament once in thewhole course of the 56
years of his reign but; on the contrary; be,' in=
stead. -of bayiug .debts to discharge,; would, 'have
had a surplus revenike 46,300,000.14 illy! betook
into this actount all the pail isions made 'at diffe-',
rent tinies by Tarliiinfetir 'tor all the numerous-
branches of the Royill Family, and allthechargei
whielliadhcen.taken off, the Civil List and car-
ried to the. Consolidated • Fund.. Thepoblielad
therefOre gained 6,00.,0001. by the as eitegemeat
made With; 1h o,,Ctown , by which the OVereigir
gave up the fructilyiug.Tiveno4 :tivlaell"Parliatnent
lard previously placed in his hands. In moving for
leave to brio;; in his Rill,. he should first bring
before. the liquse a rctrospeetiVe view of the in-
come an' expenditure of the Civil List since.lBo4;
and heshonld, 2dly, sobwit to Mem prospectively,
the probable 'amount of its future expenditure;
and when on this head, it would be remembered,
the'provision made for it had been corifessed to be
inadequate- from the year
,1802 ; ,bot till the re-
taro of peaceit was not thought advisable to make
a new artapgcment, as from the casual aids grow 7
ing out of the war, in Admiralty droits and other
fttnds *teeming to. the, Crown, it wits hoped that
the augmented charges might be met, withoutany
tievi, provision being required, till a pacification
should at length take place. The third head on
which be should speak, would be on the prospec-
tive regulations which it might beproPer to adopt
for the time to come, in order to provide for the
splendour and comfort .of the Crown, and to make
a future recurrence tf) Parliament for assistance
unnecessary--=at least for a very 4teuded period.
lo the first place, he proceeded to state what bad
been the actual.ex'penditure of the Civil List for a
course or years. •
The average expenditure of the seven years up to
the yea! 10.11, was - - - ,01,103,000

In 18iq the charge was. - •• - 1,74,000
In Isla - - - . 3,3,16,000
1n.1814 - - 1,361,000
115 In - - " - 1,436,000
and in the year ending January FAIL, 1816 1,413(4000
The areraxe amount of the Revenues of the Civil
Liss in the_seven years op to 1011 wai 995,000
Since that perlotl. from
,yatious circumstances, the
Revenue hail risen to • - - • 1,060,000
it'lvoultl baleen, in the seveh years up to Ie I, there had
been It deficiency of 1,0010001. IR this stall of the Etkevidi.

turf, as compared with the Revenue of the Civil Liat, it
must be seen there was necessartly a tendency to incur a debt.
The gross amount of the debt created since 18(14

Fr..1M.1

was - • -
In discharge of this, P.irlittrnent had advanced
1 an&
Croon, tn,nt its West
ludic
p voelt: {else' same
And during the saute period the Crown had ad-
- vaticed, haul the same funds, for the service of
the Public - - - - - - 1,000,000
Had the Orown, instead of advancing thii sum to
~
the Public, applied it to the liq'ilidation Of the Ci-
vil List debts, it would,_have sufficed to cover
then), and made an. application to Parliament on
account-of the debt incut red ;within the period he
had named wholly unnecessary:, But it was not
merely the sum of 1,000,0001. advanCed in 1807,
that had been given from the funds:of the Crown
to the Public Service, but in the course of the
war the nation had received • not less than.
2,800.0001. from the same source. It would' be
seen from the statements, he had offered, that the
frequent appeals which had been 'made to Parlia-
ment, arose, not from the faults but from the 'visa •
fortunes, or rather from the merits of the CrOwn,
in accepting for
,the ample funds formerly
vided, a fixed income, which Was known to fie
inadequate. The debt remaining on the Civil
List. down to the sth Jan. 1816; amounted to
277,000/. 'lbis had been met by aluither ad-
yans:. from the Droitl, and therefore he had not
to propose: that a provision should be made to
covet that ex-pence. He now procaded to she
second head on which he
,proposed to speak. Jc
having been understood, that she subject was to
be fully investigated on the return of peace, an .•
isintate was made last year of its future es•'•
-.The_ monist of that estimate eras
1,478,680/), That which he .should !tole sub it;
to the consideration .of the House . amounted-
to S
1•.339,4951. There it would ,he seen tress a re-
duction, of ,139-,ooolt The WitAsor
meat he 'thought it fair to deduct from this esti'
mate.. But, for tlJe circumstance which cooed
the nation tti have, at the same time, a Sovereign
-de facto, -and a Sovereign de fare, the 100,0001:
'which tha'tUstablishinerit required might have bees'
spared, as well as -the 60,0001. for the Privy Purse,.
and the 10,0001: granted to her. Majesty in eO5l-
- of :the, situation •of things at Windsor.
But for that Calamity, the grant of 170,0001. tO •
which' he hail just referred, and which lied been
proposed to Parliament by Mr. -Percival itilBl2,
might have been spared ;- .he therefore thought
he was justified in deducting that stun frarn:F°
estimate, as it was a charge which the lustier
would not have to bear in ordinary times. PI
170,0001. deducted from the estimate which be ban
proposed oft
.33R,000!, brought his estimate down ••
to 1,168,0001. This was that which ought to be, •'
compared with the estimates of 1811 .or I
That the provision for the Civil List was Wade.
citrate, had been admitted not merely by Commit' ~
-tees of that-House, but virtually by the House
itself, in the law, by which it was declared, that '
whenever there should be an excess of 124,00015.
over the estimateof 1804, Or.of 10,0001. over that
of 1811, the subject should be-brought under-01.
consideration of Parliament. The estimate he bad
named of 1,168,0001. compared with the average
expenditure of the seven years, up to 181 whicb
amounted to ;103,0001. gave an excess of 65:0001- • -
This was the whotaaddition in point Offact,..which Ile
_propOietlihould be made to the estimate of 18 ( 1
,and this, when—Parliament considered the Derr
charges thrown7on the Civil List, would not, he
thought; excite their surpriie,,, He was; in the
present instance, obliged •to Unite the Windsor •
'Establishinent with 'other charges which he had
mentioned. to that which 'he bad dbt ought fortvard
as the propereitimate for ordinary times,- and this 1 •
bit-ought it- up- to he sum be bad nalited...!
I,39,oool.'.Theincome of the Civil List; Biking
the Exchequer fees at 48,0001. (which they had
amounted to in the-last year), and the Scotch fees
at 10,0010., arikinilt to 1,088,0001. ; so that
comNrect the Projected estimates 41'.
1,339,0001. there would be a.• deficit' of 251 ,000 L • •
Ot this-5a- ell'arge of '170,0001. arose out of his
Majesty's malady. It was now for the House to
consiger in what way. this deficiency of 251,0001.
was to he met. There were two toodA of meet-
ing it ; the one by voting additional:revenues- to
the Civil 'List ; the other by relieving it from •
some of -the Charges which it had- hitherto
borne. He., strongly recommended the latter
course as that • which ought 'to be preferred.
When lie haul Sltewn thafin one Department, that
with which he had the Honour to be connected'
there had been in one year an increase of expellee •
to the amount of 150,0001. he thought the House' •
would feel it s% as desirable to withdraw. from Inc.. '"
Civil List charges which were subject to such!,
great. fluctuations, and ivhich were of an ilia.-
dental nausre. He wished to take from the- firtit
class a charge of 30,5001. which he purposed
carry to the Consolidated Fund. This was created':
by the allowances made to the junior branches of •
the Royal Family. Last year it had been in con.
tetnplation to propose that it should, be relieved
from the 100,0001. for the Windsor Establishment.
Under this head there had been a reduction is
present year, and -the design had therefore been
abandoned. The incomes of the junior branches .
of the Royal Family, it had been thought well
to take from the Civil List, as it was desirable
that these should all be raid from one fund---the!
-Consolidated-Fund, into which they Would IVO.
nit the demise of any of those Illustrious -.Per.
sonages. He next proposed to take certain
charges from the fourth class—the Lord Chaffi'..
berlain's. department, which were extremely fitte-',',
tuating, and incapable of being tied down mall:
fixed estimates.. He propose(' to relieve it 6'01.4
a charge .of 15,0001. fur allowances to rglreigt-/
Ministers'.; from 10,0001. for the Board of 11701)0.,
From occasional payMents to the amount of,
197,0001. and from an item in the second class,
creating a charge of 13,0001. These together',
ttwohoettierllxedvarelelnil
oideivitttel3trtetl)ifoe2iCssi v,ioloLoli s. t fr oin art expendltu
the
Civil costraitsitl
f.,would
os 3r,e6dotto.Cl7
This, compared with its revenues, would leayetk
surplus of 4,2001. lit the, first class he Antiei!
pared savings to the amount of 26,4001. wider.
the heads of Foreign
_Ministers and Consids
with respect to the former, he wished to nut)
such an arrangement as might "protect them fro.r
.
.those inequalities of income to which they wcr
now subjected...an arrangement which would save

2.500,000
702,000

1,738,000

•

them from anise tninoos vicissitudes CO,. wit:en
their private 'fortnnes Were now 'snmetintes ex•
' posed. ' Inquiries, had recently been -made into the
amount of thelees,reCeived by the Consols, mid
. . from the result of these lie looked for a saving ,of-
. • 10,0001.., ineking with the 16,4001.. expected to
be saved mitler the head of Foreign Ministers, IC
' total of 26,4001 P He 'Licit 'came to . the .;fourth'•
class, which included the fotir great branches of
the Household Expenditore. The whole saving
~' utt this class„.comvared with the. amount of laSt
year, was 20,0001., the total estimated 'amount.
being 234,0001..4 whereas last year it Was 254-,0001, •
. ,
lo give the House a More complete view': of .the
i savings in this class, he %wield state the Depa rtinemmts% ,
J
in which reductions hid been made. In the Lord
Steward's Department- matrof the ..expences had -
hurt curtailed. In the Lard 'Chamberlain's Depart-,
meat there was a -reduciion 'of three •th""stina
pounds ;-''. last' year the sum for it was, forty-three
thousand Poiniiis ; this year only 40,0001. Time ex-
pences of the department of the' Master of the
horse were also much diminished. If the whole,
"'lmam Of the 4th otitis of this year ayes coinpar7
ed with the expence which it included in •the
seven years preceding 1811, it wouldbe found that
the average of those years was. 259,0001.,• which.
'as 25,0001. above the present amount. -But if
the sum, atwhich the expences of this class were
estimated, should prove insufficient, atillif- any
excess of expence was incUrred;- to make which,
. •it would he necessary to apply to Parliament, the
whole object of the measure which he proposed
would be 'defeated; and the House would be de,
eeived.: Thii was ' supposition, which, he was .
convinced, woulit.lnove the very reverse of the
truth; :because the estimate was formed (spoil the
surest pi inciplet. 'To prove this, to the satisfac-
tion of the House, hti wo I
ule.wish to-touch- (not
upon the details, for theY would he: hereafter dis-
cussed) upon a -.feW of the grounds on which there
was the moit:just reason to believe that this•esti-
snare was formed on such principles as to luilke.
i
it aluntst'eettalft that the'incorne would equal the
expenditure,' and that the 'reduction was' not ,
a diusive one., in the`_ first . place, One' at
the cliitf,-; reasons. for the reduction was, that
'the prices of articles
.Ini.d lately voiniiii, Ad
Zen. ssroodly,- the establishment of the Prin.'
vess Charlotte, witch for . the -fete' last years'
baden. be.. Charged -upon, the-Civil List, was 'lltikv
Nvolultawo from je.„ _Thirdly, ' there would lbe a
'considerable saving in causeQuenee. or 411;tiltitre
being now completely •p"rov+ded'for. all Ore minor
trenched of
the Royal:Family. And ,lastly, as a
considerable snitl had been laid' out in providing
plate, there would not for the 'future be more than
o trifling sum' required for' that article. Thus; he-
'was not,: misleading the Mime,: when he 'said'
that tile estittiate had.been Moat fairly formed.,
,
and that every item, had"been duly considered,en.
that the reductions were by no means greater than'
could rea'Sonahly be made. . Taking
.the 4;h and
Eth Class together, they inclodedthe whole ex-
, pews of the,,,Royitl Household,; mere
Privy-house. On time sth :ClaSS',.,ittinvaled'
With time last yeae;: there was by the.p:r.esent erti-!
' :nate atim,ziocreasts Of 2,4401. But. he would Wish'.
that, the 4th- and AO( Cr.iSS,,'r.). rit. account of • the
connection which he ,had -...rneotiOoe'd„.: ihOlild al.-
nays .6e ' Vie i.'o4 -together.. . The- amount . of 'the
exp.ene.cs. -on -both tlpeiethisses; for, the seven.,
/ears preceding 1,81 Uavcragedanulmally 375,0001.
Last year, thtejOint'autottnt weti.392,0601,; but.
t hislrear it was 'only 370,0901. Therefore, pros-::
r • spectively, .on tho-se two clasSes,. compared with
the stirenritesrrevious -to 1811, there was asay-
. ing annually of 800014,And coatipiteed. with 'lasi
Near 22,0001. This statement ttUghtAct protect the
• Crowd from, that odium which a certain class 'Of
men endemtioured to cast upon it, of bearing most
heavily on the fillilllCCS of the country. When' his'',
Royal' Highness the Prince Regent took upon him-. I
self the office of Regent (which in point of .fact
14" the Crown) it was found; of Course, that he,.
eould not give up all his own servants,. and at the
same. time the others who bad attended on his
lidajesty at Windsor could not be. dismissed at
ooce. Thus, what must be called a double ex- .
pence,' was unavoidably incurred.,. The sort of,
calumny which was apt to be imputed to the
Crown 'by its enemies, as to the amount of the
Itoyal expenditure, was most false and unjust.—
The proportion which the Royal axpences , bore
to those of the public departments which were
. , charged on the Cie il List, was but a drop of water
to the ocean. What swelled-.the abloom of the Ci-
vil List were those necessarily large expences which
grew out of the different branches of the public
service: Whenhe Same to the end of this eiscos-
sioh, he hoped to find that there was not in atoint.
of fact so much difference between himself anti the
Rt.: .!lort. 'Gentleman opposite (Mr.- Tierney) .as.
!night be 'expected front the preliteinery, discus-
Conte upon this .subject. He hoped they %void('
come fairly, and liberally, and candidly to the dig-
cussiou; actuated only by time desire of doing what
v..mis just between the Crown and .the people—
(Hear, hear! from Mr. Tierney). There was a
topic on which he wished to say a very few words
—the delay-in bringing' this Tatter before Par-
Siament. - it had been found impossible to have
the Estimates made- out -in October, as had been
wished, and time reason was the repairs and
improvements which were carrying on at
trighton, and the amount of which it was im-
passible to determine until long after October.
- . .
'There bad also arisett a doubt whether ' the ex-
-1 rencetof these improvements ought to he charged
upon.-the Civil List; as time residence at Brighton •
c"•p not a liqul palate, but bad 'been originally
purchased by the -4,1 t ince Regent out of his 'private
°means, altithugh he had last year resolved to have
it fitted ep for the aecomtuottation of his family.
l'h-eTreasury, therefore, As the.proper'conititu-
tional body, whose duty it was to consider this
14""',1:,ttud, upon due deliberation, reconitneftded
`that these oxpences should. not be inciodedemong
'those of the - loird' Chamberlaints DePartuteitt i .
.
I`lll ofig6t rathee to. be taken out of the Droits,.: It
tras his ' intention to lay before . the House the
Ill'e2seey -Minutes upon this subject ; and. there•
P.
fore be did not . think it was necessary for him
ta Jay any mutt. .import the subject at this time.
•..
''," would now go to the Third Class, which in-
. rktliedAhe eilatenceS of that ;.officeover which he
'" the honour to presidethe Foreigti-peimaq-.
t
I"unt• The total amount for thialleplritnent in
I,e . •
o,e, ent 'Estimate -was 226 9001,1v,hieb was a
...

o .last. year's expenditure. It was necessary for.
hittl to state, that the Estimate this year was
Trained with a. view to the extent
,of our foreier;
relations-; ki4l c h was -ne7tet'gie..a.ter at pre-
sent.' It. might therefore in the course of event's
(howevemproirithle at presettt) happen, that onr'
foreign connections might hectime less exttesive'
If, hyany circumstances,- ottr'continental vela-
tiOns should be narrowed, then, of .course, a
would take place iu:thiS bran Ch. In con,
tetoplation, of the possibility of such an event,
was his intention .to ietrodirce into the Bill
which he proposed to briUg
_into the Uonse,
u. elause, providing that in case it saving shouhi
pike place upon this hranch,.that the sum so sav-
ed,-should' he applied to increase. the surplus of the
Consolidated Fend. As to the sth class; for the
purpose of etlecitialSectoity agaiiist tiny in-
crease in the tocpence,, is regelation mils nn no
new officer should be tutp-pinted- in the Royal
flonSebeld until the expetrditure fell ftom 140,0.001.
t0.125,0001..and with.this, view a.Committeeof
three. Gentlemen. bad been app-ointeil to examine
what offices could'be dispensed with. As to, the
classification of the payments', be had found it his
doty,,b,owever laborious; to take" upon himself
the arrangement On this subject:. As the most
economical mode which • could be adopted, he MiM
would propose to Parliament to vote at once. what
should be judged a reasonlble som.for the'contin-
gent expeoces of. the Civil List, 'anti to confine it-
self merely-to that stun. The auditing of
,the ac-
counts was'another very important consideration.
Nothing was more necessary than that it should he
done speedily, as it was way by having it so dune
that it could be hoped that any Onproper expetidi.
tore, in breach of the regulations of the blouse,.
might be checked.. At preseat, the mode of audit:.
ing the accounts relating to the Royal Expendi-
'titre was very defective, By the arringetnent now.
acted Upon, a great proportion of these accounts
were now .appoihted to he audited by the Commis-
sioners of Puhlic.Account's. Th'is single tact was
enough to spew the necessity-of altetation in the
arrangements ; because 'it was well. known .that
these (.;mnatisSioners well; so much. oppressed_
with business, that account', lay hctore them many
years, ere, they could po‘sibly-be' Aiiiiited: lie
was sure the (louse would agree with him, that
'all. ~the accounts slimild aud.ted within a"
year'froM the time time exnenees' were incurred—
(Hear...hear, hear - With •it view.:to a complete
and proper arrangement on this subject, he should
propose, that foe the•tektire'the-Whole of trle ac. 7
coots itiould he audited under the•iititstediate di-
rection of the Treasury, who should employ pro-
per officers for. that purpose, and that those offi-
cers. so employed. should Amy e all time necessary
faCilitiJs'afforded them ; that they should have
access to all the persons employed in the diffei'eot
-departments to which 'expellees were incurred
and in. short; every meat's' of information, to:
'enable them thoroughly aud:correctly to judge. of
every item in the .accounts.
..By this ari :angement
'he thought that it would .be allowed the best
means was taken to ettiitre,aceuracy, anal to ctn.,-
reccat.:otice. any .unitecestraty expenditpre, .and
•--bkiog the whole most competelY under coutrotil.
This, was the view of what he intended to propiAe''.
• to. the House,; and it was formed on principles so
liberal—so Much what the. Right Honour able-
- Gentleman .(iUr. Tierney) harthimself said were
his • wishes import- the subject, that ha clitl hope
'the Moose would appetive of it. . Before he
-sat down
he thought. tt neeeSsary- just to 'say
a tevir words' as to the etnoeht- of. the expenCes
in the Foreign Dgartmcnt, for the purpose tit
endeavOuring more completely to remoye.the corn-
nion mistake, that the:great amount of the Civil
List was owing•to the atimutit of the •Itoyal Ex
pendituti. He beggedonly.to refer to the fact's_
on this subject, which,would ,show exactly how.
erroneous thiS notion was, which, not withstand-
tug, it was endeavoured so iudustrionsly, to he
propagated. He also stated, that it was his • in-
tention immediately to lay before the.. House. the
Accounts relating to the Droits, subsets. he was
sure would prove satisfactory to the House. The.
Noble Lord then :concluded by moving, " That
leave be given to bring in--a Bill for the better
gulationof his Majesty's Civil Lst."
. Mr. Tisartay said, he did not intend to make
any objection to the motion of the Noble Lord.
But although he did not oppose the blingne jr)
the Bill, he by .no means was to be understood as
committing himself to•approve the principles oft
which it Wei founded. But he begged to cell-the
attention of the Hotise;to the way in which this
Bill was introduced. He had often complained
of the 'late period of the Session at which the dis-
cuSsion or the Ciiil 'List took place ; and there
wai.tiow the very same grotind for complaint, be-
cause this Bill was. introduced at such a period of
the'Session, thA it was impossible'to have a full
House before which to debate it. More than two
months ago, Le had moved Or an aceo•mt of the
Droiti of the Admiralty, which were then refused,
although the Noble Lard now fott4 it convenient
to produce them. The saute was the Case with
respect to time Lord Chamberlain's Department
and many others. There was therefore much to
be compratned of, as to the time when the Noble
Lord produced these accounts, and-brought in his
Bill, because they were both 'before
.the Houlte at
so late a-period of the Session, that it was impos,
sible for any Member of the Hoese,to avail
self of them in the way which he might wish,
and which his 'duty required. It was now Only
two days until his motion upon the subject of the
Civil List would come before the House. Now, be.
would submit whether this was proceeding. failly
, —that he should only he allowed two days to
consider thesepapersj.
_of whiCh lie could not, in.
'any degree, avail' hiihself. on Monday, without
labouring day and tight at them, and even then
he should be able to make but an imperfect use
of them. But he implored the House not to be
led away by what had been said by the Noble
Lord, nor to belleVe that the measures which he
recommended were such as ought to be adopted,
or such 'as Would the satisfactory to the country.
Lord -CASTLSREAQII.' Of all questions that
could be brought before the House,• the Civil.
;List was that which it mould be most unfair and
improper to discuss in parts, instead of looking_
at it as a whole. There was certainly, therefore,
no just ground for Complaint on the-part of the
Right Hon. Geutiemail oppo)ite, at
.!.0- the .rejtcl

the partial discussion of this qtleation'.' He was
sure the I-louse wodd acquit him of any intention
tif embarrassing the quest:on. The. Right Hon.
'Gentleman. however,.ettagt;eirated clheii he talked
'of the ‘lisadvantaize tinder vehlah hihiSitra froni
the time at which the :aecoolits were laid before
the House; .for he would ituture •to stay,' that
when, the Right Lion. Geptlematt looked at .the
accounts, he WAS so thnronghly master of the
subject that he Wottld,understand them in en mi-
iiutes.

TIFAII,MY tittia, tie had 'complained that be
h4(.1 only two flays-to considerthuse papers, not
so as'.to citable himself to understand' them, but
lo make the Home iintlerStawl tlieth.

.sir F. BUEDEPrT protested against any money
being-taken from the Proits °ldle Crown, or of
the Admiraiy, for the purpose of constructing ex-
pensive ornamental works at Brighton,' where it
appeared after all, -that there was' .no Royal Pa-
lace. He could ngt,forbear oxpeessing his sur-
mise at the way in which the Noble Lord ex-
pressed himself, when- be said' there' was a tem.'
dent,' in the Civil LisOto out-grow the sum voted-
by Parliament ; and- the Notlie Lord then told
theist a very long story about
,this; but for his
own part, it seemed to him, that there` was only.
one way of preventing this, and that was, that
the House should . not vote • away any money-ta
pay oti those. outgrowings. He agreed perfectly
to'the principle of dividing the Royal expeures
from the other branches of the Civil List', but he
looked tvith jeolo.vsy sit all sums voted for any at
the branches ; and -be thought Ministers ought
to be mode responiihle 'for any excess. Of the • ex-
penditure above the stun toted- by Parliaritent.
As to- the Bill now. proposed; he believed it..would,
be as: much disregarded .as all the former .Bills-'
upon.- this siibject. Mr. Burke's Bill was passed
with the very same-view as that how.prop6sed,*
but it had been utterly disregarded., It would be
much. better for the Hort 4 to make -the reSpoosi-.
bility of .Ministers, wbicli was so much talked of,
a re slily. r
The motion wits then agreettto without: oppo-
sition..

fiusKtoom rose to make a few observa-
tions relitive to' the 'sum of 23;0001. which had
been grAted Co the CoamissiOriers for niunaging
the Adairs of Woods and
.Forestai it•wasjotpoisk-
.ble to state the part;colar itenis for which this .suiri
had been expended, but be had no objection What-
vier- to (*Gish the totals'; •

Tte-a$ ttv AttFer.yed•; that, his object was to
ascertain What proportion ok this money had been
expended in repairs, and pnichases.'
Mr. 1-10,K1,sN that (here would be no.
difficulty in ut iliiat the t eturn• in the manner then
desired. He woliht fornish an account for the last
ten years Under those particular. heads ; -and for
that purpose, lie begged leaVe to
,withdraw the
papers thebibetort, the Haase:
'Lord ALTHORPE, in a low tone of voice,eam-
"ptainticl that certain papers for which 'he had
moved some time.agor had not been produced.
Mr. TIERNEY Complained that an account ,of
the increase of salaries in eertain.departments,
which hid been laid upon the table, had .not yet
been printed.
..'the, §nsts..Ett begged to state, that a great
quantityof.,parrs had been sent to the printer;
but, as it'was not enstOinary to niark' any particu=
Akir papehti being first wanted, the printer gene-
rally.yeturnedc.the whole•together, and. this was
the only yeason that the document to which the
Right Gent. had alluded,'‘vai not then be-
fore the HouSe. ." • •

Mr; TaktißY thought this explanatipn quite
'satisfactory, but he hoped some exertions would
be made, to furnish this paper Uy ' • 7
slfOrt conversation then. took plate between
Lord Althorpe, the-Chancellor,of tire Exchequer,
Mr, W. Wynne, Mr. Tierney, and Lord.NC.as.tl,...
reagh, relative to the names of the Commissioners
who had been appointed to inquire intti the reduc-
tions to be made in the salaries of different De,
partulents, When LOrd Gist lereagh concluded with
saying, that the names ut those pigraoti eptiltEnot
be mentioned.
_ SILVER . COINAGE. :

Mr. GititsfeeLt, tOse; to present a Petition frbin
doe of:the' Wards of the City of Lomion;.praying.
for a new silver currency. The. Hon., Member
iivislreal to stare, that a plan %vas (hen under the
consideration of hjs }Maiesty'S Oovernmettt which
would relieve the country from that inconvenience
under which it. hail .ainfered for a great many vears
past. He then adverted to a -pampidet published'
by. thelate LeirdLiv'el'pool, in 1805 and expre,s-
ed aliope, that. whatever might, be the plan Of
Ministers, it would be,,fouoded Oil that principle
upon which every Gournment of Europe, except
-England, had always acted. The House Was
awAre that, according to the 'Mint Laws, sup-
posing a person to take a pound of silver to the
Mint, it was exchanged for 6.2.5. which made ex-
actly the same weight. Dining the hist century
this Country had,heen possessed of the worst silver.
coinage. in Europe. • ,He had recently seen some
specimens of ,a new coin front the Mint which
certainly did great credit t
.o the persons whnso-,
perintended that department ; .and he ‘'could take
that opportunity Of stating, that, in his opinion,
those persons discharged the duties•of their ofliee
with great- honour to themselves end ads antage
to the country.
Mr. Wat.i.mit.t vie POLE. Said, that; ai this sub-
ject was under theconsideration of his Majesty's
Government, it would be impossible
.for him to
give any opinion et present. As to the three-
shilling tokens, to which, be believed; the Hon.-
Member had allirded; it .wei perhaps the.besecoin
that had been fabricated during the present King's
reign. He was very much gratified in hearing the
opinion which the Hnn. Member entertained of
the Mint; and lamented that another Mir. Meat-
,ber, who had expressed very:different sentiments
on a former night, was not „then present. He
begged to‘inftiriu the Heine, 'that a most respec-
table jury of goldsmiths had been convened at the
mint, who declared that they could not discover
any diU'erence between some lot,o (Purl whlch bad
been coined at London, and others which had
,been coined at Paris. T h e directors of the mint
at Paris had written word, that • they were asto-
nished tofind the accuracy with Which thoselpieces
had been fabricated. He then held in his' hand
eight.lOuis d'ors and he stboultl tae glid"to hand

,„
had been coined at London, ano sbe other !0.,i nt
Paris ; and, tiniest Gentlemen A'ete acq tainted
with the private merle of the mint of Pa is ~he
pet-MI(10i that they could not tell the diffe"ence.
Mr. 3. P. GRANT would not trouble the /louse
With more than two words on this .si.t:4eei.. Re
Would inertly state, that the relative value of gold
and silver was trinsiderably altered ; anit*e could
Hot do better" thuo make one metal a legal tender,,
and leave the other to find its value in. the Market.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT, adverting to what the
Right, lion; Gentleman ,had stated respecting the
louis d'ors, wished to know why v‘ e should take
opon ourselves to .counterfeit-the coin of another:
comury -
'The CrtArldet.tiott of the-Excomtnnsaid, that
the !olds d'ors had been struck at London by'the
express authority of the French King.•
Mr. W. ?NA. begged Just to add, that we had
not copied' the letter or. 'symbol of the fiend:
Mint.

'The.Petition WrCS tbe9,brought lip, and ordered
to lie on the table.

'Mr. 4. P. GRANT Moved, that certain Papers
relative to distillation in Scotland should be forth-
with' pranced. ordered.'
Lord ALTII'ORPR moved for an AcoOlirit of the
Drawbacks on Leather exported during the last
five years. Ordefed.
. .