The Sun.
London, England, 1842-04-05 00:00:00

TUESDAY EVENING, APRIL 5, 1842.

countries. In Francs one-half, certainly one-third, of the
taxes were derived from direct taxation. It was also the case
in Switzerland. However,he knew the difficulties of the Right
Hon. Baronet,' and he for one was sincerely thankful to him
for the great relief he promised by his tariff. He had such
confidence in the Right Hon. Baronet, and in the honesty of
his professions; that he would not vote for the propositi n d th,
Hon. Member for Monmouth. He knew enough of the Right
Hon. Baronet to know that he meant honestly—( Hear, hear )
—and farther than to give his decided opposition to the unjust,
unequal, and odious character of an income tax, he would not
throw any unnecessary obstacles in the way.—(Hear.)
Mr. DUNCOMBE said a few words in explanation.
Sir R. PEgL said he hoped the Hon. Member for Mon-
mouth would withdraw his motion, and allow the resolution
to pass.

House.

Mr. BLEWITT said that giving the Right Hon. Baronet
credit for his honest intention., he would withdiaw his motion,
but, at the same time, he held that the honest speech of an
honest Member of Parliament ought not to be called an explo-'
sion by the Right Hon. Baronet.—( Great laughter. )
Sir R. PEEL said, that the Hon. Gentleman had misunder-
stood hiin, in attributinc, the use of the word 4' explosion" to
his (Mr. Blewitt's) speech. What he referred to was, the an-
ticipated explosion that was to take place throughout the coun-
try, in consequence of the delay which had taken place with
regard to the income tax, blit he certainly did not confound the
speech of the Hon. Member with an explosion. -
The amendment was then withdrawn, and the House went
into Committee, Mr. GREEN in the chair.

The CHAIRMAN then read the resolution, which was put
and agreed to.
Mr. M. GIRSON said, that the Right Hon. Baronet at
the head of her Majesty's Government having made state-
ments so completely the reverse of what had falltn from the
Hon. Member for Monmouth, with respect to the feelings of
the country on the income tax, he was sorry an opportunity
was not given of ascertaining what the feelings of the country
really were by means of petitions—(Hear, hear)—though
when a proposition was made for continuing the income tax in
1816, the then Chancellor of the Exchequer attempted to show-
that the petitions against the income tax did not express the
feelings of any considerable number of persons. He confessed
he could not quite agree with much of "-hat hadfallen from either
side of the House as to the proceeds of the income tax, or as to its
being discontinued in three years. The Right Hon. Baronet
held out that hope as an inducement to persons to vote for the
tax, but he (Mr. Gibson) saw no reason why, if the tax were
necessary now, it would not also be necessary at the end of
three years. The Right Hon. Baronet had laid it down that
the deficiency was one of a permanent character, and that the
Corn-laws, or good or bad harvests, had nothing to do with it.
What hope was there, then, that after three years, they would
be able to dispense with the tax, and have at the same
time an equslity between the expenditure and revenue?
He had stated that he brought forward a tariff reform, and
had made such alterations in it as would revive the trade of
the country, and rendering the Excise and Customs' duties
more pruductive, would have the effect of equalising the ex-
penditure with the income of the country. It was true that
such a cource of policy would in time have that effect, but
the alteration must be one of a bolder and more comprehensive
nature than that contemplated by the Right Hon. Baronet.
They might talk of visionary theorists,but the Right Hon. Baronet
expected a larger result from his measure than the most vi-
sionary theorist in the Anti-Corn-law League. Though he
believed a comprehensive reformlhad been the effect of equalis-
ing the expenditure with the revenue, he did not expect that
four millions of money would be forthcoming in consequence
of the plan of the Right Honourable Baronet. If the Right
Honourable Baronet was afraid of holding out expectations
which could not be fulfilled, he hoped that he had in store
some comprehensive measure with respect to foreign sugar,
to justify him in leading the country
.to believe that the in-
come tax would be dispensed with in three years. He re-
gretted that if there was any intention of proposing an equali-
sation of the duty on the inheritance of real property with that
of personal property, it was not put in execution then because
he believed that those who were willing to follow the Right
Hon. Baronet now would not in a short time be se subservient
to him. If under the tax of the Right Hon. Baronet every
person was to pay according to his means—according to
the benefits he derived from the State—why was it
to be given up at the end of three years?— ( Hear, hear.) If
the tax was good and just it ought to be retained, and those
tales on consumption, which Hon. Gentlemen opposite allowed
to be much more unjust, ought to be abolished. He had not
before given his opinion on the income tax, but he thought it
was fair to state, and he believed it also to be the opinion of his
constituency, that in the tariff of the Right Hon. Baronet there
were many excellent improvements, hut be also looked upon it
as a step to a more free system of commerce. He would not
go so far as the Agricultural Advocate in stating that the Anti-
Corn-law League had found in the Right Hon. Baronet a
fitting advocate for their propositions, because the great number
of the alterations in the tariff were of a very trifling character,
but he looked upon it as a step that would ultimately lead to
something better. The Right Hon. Baronet had quoted the
opinions of Mr. D. Hume and others, who were much looked
up to by the Anti Corn-law League, but he wished teat he had
kept in his recollection the saying of Mr. Hume—" that the
people could not pay public taxes and private taxes too." He
( Mr. G.) would have wished that the Right Hon. Baronet
had intercepted that tax which was going into the pockets of
private individuals without in the least benefiting the revenue.
—( Hear.) He wished he had intercepted the difference of duty
between Bd. and 4d. in the article of coffee from going into the
pockets of a colonial interest.—( Hear, hear.) He . wished
that the difference should be allowed to be paid into the Ex-
chequer. Supposing the commercial reform inteeduceci
by the Right -Honourable Baronet had the effect in..
three years of equalising the expenditure and revenue, and that
it was necessary in the intervtl to raise a sum of moneefor the
public service, he would in that case agree to an income tax..
The plan of the Right Honourable Baronet was to
levy a given sum within a certain, period on the. country.
The tax would take as much in three years from professional
incomes as it would from real property. Was this just? If.
Hon. Gentlemen opposite could sanction the injustice of a tax
equally imposed on all kinds of property, the community at
large would not, and conscience would not check them from
evading it by fraud when they could. Ihe Government had
made no attempt to equalise the distribution of ,theie tax ac-
cording to the actual means of different classes of the, public.
There was in fact no improvement in the resent income tax
on that of former times. If the Gorsrnirsent :Isad used halt
the efforts to impose the tax justly on does esesmun,ity the
they had used to shift in some parts of the cernmienify to favour
certain classes, there would now be no cause for complaint.
The Government then rested its apolOgy se? , the necessity of
the case. He (%lr. Gibson) would not at! sw. that there, was.
an adequate necessity to justify the.. stieh aTai.
Hon. gentlemen on his side could iiissest means to supply
the deficiency of the revenue w resorting" to an income
tax, but it was not their duty to suggeSt thetn,at preientgor,
as the Right Hon. Baronet himself had :well eeid, a physician
ought net to prescribe until he had been Called its. Nevertheless,
his (Mr. G. s) conviction was that the Right Hon. Baronet
might have avoided a recourse to this tax, by a. reduction of the
duty on foreign sugars, and an equalisation dale duties on the
descent of real and personal property. He (Mr. G.) had
pledged himself to his constituents to oppose the income tax,
and therefore he would oppose it ; and if the Right Hon.
Baronet me-nt to realise the sum he had estiMated, its produce
at its collection must be made by laying informations against
parties who had given in incomes less than they possessed, and
they must employ spies and informers, giviiig these men an
it.terest in all aduitional sums that should 'tune into the Trea•
sury in consequence of their information. Could anything be
more abhoirent to the feelings of Englishmen than such a sys-
tem ? When Mr. Vitt imposed his income tax of ten per cent.
be did not get so much under its lax and indidlgent opeiationas
he did afterwards under the more stringent system adopted when
the tax was laid on at five per cent. when spies and informers
were employed. The Right Hon. Baronet said there had been
as yet no very strong and general expression of public feeling
against the tax. His (Mr. G's.) answer was that the country

would not be effectually moved until the law had been passed
and the people had felt the working of it. When the pec;ple
felt the smart of the tax all that public feeling would be aroused
with the absence of which the Right Hon. Baronet now taunted
them.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. R. NVASON rose to order. He believed the Hon. Gen-
tleman who last spoke, and other Hon. Members, were not
aware that the first resolution had been passed.—( Hear, hear.)
He believed that it had been improperly passed.—( Hear, hear.)
Some Gentleman wishing to speak, seeing the Hon. Chairman
rise, gave way to him, and he took advantage of the interval to
put the question, when it was carried. He (Mr. W.), how-
ever, would ask whether the resolution had really passed ?
The CHAIRMAN said, when he read the resolution he was

not aware of the rising of any Hon. Gentleman. First he (the
Chairman) said "the thought the ayes had it"—then he stopped
for awhile, and said " the ayes had it." But if it would be more
satisfactory he would put the resolution in other terms.—( Hear. )
Mr. 'W A LLACE•said, on the word of a gentleman, he die
not hear the resolution read. All he could hear the Chairman
say was, " the ayes have it." He believed,,-however, the dis-.
cussion might proceed on the question not.fas well as before.
Sir E. KN itTCHBULL said he had heard the resolution
read most deliberately, and there was a dead silence on the op-
posite side of the H use.—(Cheers, and hear. hear.)
Mr. HAWES said he did not hear the question put; that
was the cause of the silence be' their side of the House.
Mr. E. ELLICE had riot heard the question read.
Mr. T. BUNCOMBE said it was of no importance whether
the House divided on the first or the second resolution; for, as
the Right Hon. Baronet said, the discussion might best come
on in Committee. He (Mr. Buncombe) hoped, however,
that Mr. Green would speak a little louder in future.
Mr. LINDSEY had distinctly heard the question put out-
side the green door.—( Laughter, and hear, hear. )
Mr. V. SMITH thought the persons outside the House
heard it better than those within.—(Laughter.) He did not
hear the resolution read.
Sir R. PEEL admitted that it would be unfair to assume
that the resolutien had passed, after the discussion that had
taken place —( Hear, hear.) However, be must remind the
House that the resolution was very well known, havieg been in
the Notice Paper about three weeks.—( Hear, hear.) He also
thought the Chairman had read it in a most audible man-
ner. However, after what had been said by Honourable
Gentlemen opposite, •he must allow that the resolution
had passed through their inadvertence, still it had passed—
(Laughter, and hear, hear)—and he was sure Hon. Gentlemen
would see that it would be most dangerous to renew a discus-
sion on a resolution atter it bad passed. He did not mean to
insist on an advantage produced by an accidental acquiescence,
but he thought it would be better that the debate should take
place on the report than on the second resolution.
Alderman HUMPHREY admitted that he heard the rest
lution distinctly put, but he believed it was not heard by Hon.
Gentleman, because they were concocting something at the
time.—( Hear, and laughter. )
Mr. PRICE thought it was most desirable they should show
the world that the energies and resources of the country were
ready to meet the emergencies that might arise ; this vies not-
only necessary to the honour of the country, but would ulti-
mately prove the best policy. Recollecting the manner
in which the proposal of the Right Hon. Baronet was
received on this side of the House, and the .ilence with which
it was received by Hon. Gentlemen on the opposite side, he
vas not surprise I at the almost universal opposition with which
it was threatened. - The opposition it received from Members
of the late Government was perfectly consistent, it the pro-
position was-whether they should adopt the proposal of the
I Right Hon. Barenet opposite, or the plan brought forward by
the late Government? They:proposed at once to reduce the
burdens of the people and to increase the revenue,
which be thought was preferable to the present plan.
—( Hear, hear.) He had always been in favour of
direct taxation, in preference to any increase of the burdens
of the people by an increased tax on articles of consumption,
but still he should offer no opposition to the plan of the Right
Hoc. Baronet. He felt very strongly the great injustice ef
laying the same amount of taxation on fluctuating incomes
and incomes arising from real property, but he should be ready
to give his candid consideration to the proposition of the Right
Hon. Baronet, and should throw no obstacle in the way of the
introduction of the Bill.
Mr. M. GIBSON explained, referring to the declaration of
the Right Hon Baronet opposite, that he would alloW of no
modification of the plan.
Sir R. PEEL said he had never stated anything of the
kind referred to by the Hon. 'Gentleman. He thought the
tax ought to be on income. He look the principle of the tax
as he found it in the last and former Act. Hei,bad intended to
propose a tax on income, and be was not in the slightest degree
shaken in his belief that the tax ought to be imposid, and he
thought it would be a very dangerous precedent to break down
the efficiency of an instrument that might become necessary in
a time of war, by making the distinction referred to by Gen •
tlemen on the other side. He adhered to his opinion, but he
never meant to express that no alterations whatever should be

made. Such an expression would be disrespectful towardi the

Mr. GIBSON said, he recollected distinitly that the Right
on. Baronet stated there should be no discrimination as to

he sources from whence income was derived ; and if they

attempted to levy the tax on any such principle, they should be
obliged to abandon the plan altogether. He did not, however,
mean to say that the Right Hon. Baronet wished to imply that
there should be no modification of the details. _

Sir R. PEEL said, he did not mean to recognise the prin-
ple of discriminating between the sources of income, and
'mild do his utmost to guard against it.
Mr. PRICE addressed a few words to the House in explain-

tion. He did not mean to say that the tax ought to be aban-
doned, but that it ought to be modified.
Mr. WALLACE said he had been a Commissioner under
the old income tax, and knew something of its working. In
the first place they would allow him to state, that wherever he
had been during the time he had not been doing his duty in
;hat House, the present plan had been very generally discussed,
and also the qu 'stion whether the Right Hon. Baronet would
be able to carry it. He must s'ate that he had heard among
all parties a belief expressed that he would not be able to do it.
They did not doubt his willingness to carry it, but there were
some who doubted his power of carrying out the income tax
and the tariff with integrity. Again r.ferring to the working
,)1 the machinery of the income tax, the Hon. Member said
that as a Commis.ioner under the ld law he had found the
. .

duty so disgraceful, and so incompatible with the feelings
and conduct cf a gentiman, that be told his father (who
was then alive) that he would never again go into such a
den of sin and iniquity as he found himself in.—( Laughter. )
Hon. Gentlemen might laugh, but by the time they had felt
the operation of the income tax for two or three years, he be•
keyed they would change their tone. Country gentlemen of
large fortunes and a strict sense of honour had appeared before
him, as well as commercial men, and the former disliked fully
as much as the latter the exposure of their rentals, and the
burdens and bonds affecting their estates, and the provisions
for their mothers, sisters, and brothers, as the merchants die-

liked the disclosure of their losses, by which their credit might
tie ruined, or their gains, by which others were induced to flock
into their trade. He spoke of the days when ten per cent.
was exacted, but he did not see there was any difference in
principle, and net much in practice, between the old plan and
the present. The Right Hon. Baronet had passed a certain Bill
called " Peel's Bill," which when taken in connexion with
the, Nationals Debt, incurred by the Tory predecessors of
Hen. Gentlemen opposite, were more at the root of the evil
than the conduct of the late Government. If it were true that

the country was at war, why could they net borrow the money
'uver again as they did before? If they were not at war, why
should they raise the revenue by an income tax? Why could
they not at least postpone it for a time, and try every other
scheme Orst ? Whatever endeavours might be made to keep
the result of the inquisition secret, it was sure, by the in-
discreiion or the gossipping of clerks, to get wind. In its
operation on mercantile men their business was exposed and
their income was taxed, while it made no difference for

the amount of their losses from one year to another.
He had no doubt but there would be many abuses in the manner
of raising the tax. Many incompetent persons would of neces-
sity be placed on the Commission, and the most odious espion-
age and exposure would ensue ;now, as formerly. That was
the principle upon which County Magistrates were appointed
in Scotland, where the', succeeded each other from father to
son, as Lords became hereditary senators) in this country.
They had now in Scotland, he had no hesitation in saying,
a most discreditable county and town Magistracy.—(Loud
laughter.) Magistrates were appointed solely because they
held a political position in the county—or because they
were born with " the silver spoon in their mouth." He be-
lieved it would be the same with the appointments of Com-
missioners under the proposed income tax. He objected to the
proposal on every ground ;he believed that-the feelings of the
people were decidedly opposed to it. He had reason to know that
the country approvedof the conduct of those with had done every
thing in their power to obstruct the adoption of thi measure.
'That was what the people wanted the Liberal Members of the
House to do, and they would not justify the conduct of some
opponents of the tax who quitted the House and left others' to
obstruct its passing. The people considered the Hon. Member
for Finsbury (Mr. T. Duncombe) as their greatest champion,
from the opposition he had given to the measure, and in his
own name, and those he had spoken of out of doors, he tendered
his best thanks to those Honourable Members.—(A laugh.)
The opposition to the proposition was called " factious,' but
the people could not understand what that word " factious"
meant. The opponents of the measure had done their duty,

and the country could not see how they could be accused of
faction. For his own part he would now, 'Land at every stage,

use his utmost endeavOurs to stay and stop the passing of this
disgraceful measure, and called upon the real friends of their
country to do the same.
Mr. CHRISTMAS said, that upon the whole he approved
of the proposition before the House ; and he thought that the
exigencies of the country required that some such measure
should be adopted. He should not, however, approve of the
adoption of indirect taxation under ordinary circumstances, but
he telt that the country should not now hesitate in taking such
a course. He would, at the same time, admit that some alte-

rations might be advantageously effected in the Government
proposal. He thought, for instance, that professional men or
persons deriving their incomes from salaries, and whose means
. .

might at any time be diminished by illness, or other causes,
should not be called upon to pay to the same extent as the pos-
sessors of realised property. .still, in his opinion, the time had
come when some extraordinary step should be taken to meet
the public exigencies ; and he would remind the House
that in A great country like this there should, as much as pos-
siblj, be an excess rather than a deficiency in its revenue. He
should observe that there were some parts of the tariff proposed
by the Eight Hon. Baronet whichle could not approve of.
tie did not, for instance, approve of the regulations relating to
the importation of foreign provisions, which would be felt, and
be greatly prejudicial to the interests of Ireland in particular,
as he had reason to know. It his opinion it was advisable to
increase the duty upon foreign cattle, as the present
proposal
was very generally disapproved of. He was extremely desirous
to.tee an alteration in the duty on starch. The manufacturers
justly complained of the present duty, and were entitled to
great consideration. The Hon. IMPriaber concluded by eating
that he would support the proposal of her Alajesty's Govern-
ment:

Mr. WAKLEY said, he thought that Honourable
Members on that side of the House were labouring
unuer a great disadvantage. The major proposition having
been carried, he could not see what they would gain by resisting
the' measure. His opinion was that they should rather husband
all their strength to resist the proposal in its future stages.—
(Hear, hear.) He would-not waste the time of the House by
going at present into the general propositions submitted for
their consideration, but there was a proposal in reference to the
landed interest, on which he wished to offer a few remarks. It
had been felt by all persons in this and every other civilised
country that taxation to be useful must be imposed according
to the means of the people—that there should be no apparent,
no virtual inequalities. His constituents asked him why it
was that a special provision had been made for the farmers
whilst no such provisions had been made for the _trading por-
tion of the community.—(Hear, hear.) Of course they referred
to the proposal for exempting farmers from that scrutiny,
that oppressive, annoying, and torturing ordeal, which trades-
men were to undergo in giving an account of their income.
He was free to confess that he believed the Right Hon. Baronet
Lel applied all the vigour of his intellect--and a great intellect
he doubtless had—to the circumstances of the country.; that
he had sincerely applied his mind to the necessities of the
empire ; but at the same time looking at the tariff and at all
the proposals of the Right Hon. Baronet for the relief of the
nation, he could see no aecordance between the propositions
made and the intentions manifested. Let the House reflect for
a moment upon that scrutiny to which tradesmen especially
were to be subjected. They had heard the account of his
Hon. Friend behind him, of the operation of the income tax
when his Hon. Friend was himself a Commissioner. 4` Was it
nothing to undergo such scrutinies as lie had described? Was
It nothing for an individual to be questioned? Was it nothing for
him to be put upon his oath, to be treated with contempt,
and even when he had given his statements upon oath to have
his evidence rejected? Yet this was the kind of ordeal
which the tradesmen of this country were to undergo. From
this scrutiny, however, the farming interest was to be ex-
empted. His constituents inquired why one rule of legislation
was to be adopted with regard to tradesmen and another with
regard to farmers ? He was under the necessity of referring
them to the Right Hon. Baronet for an answer. He could
discover no satisfactory g.iound for the exemption. He knew
very well that the farmers were complaining that their interests
would be ruined and sacrificed by the introduction of foreign
cattle on the terms proposed by the Right Hon. Baronet. They
might calm their fears. They would suffer no very great sacri-
fice. All the calculations had been most shrewdly made before
they were submitted to the House.—( Hear, hear.) The
Right Hon. Baronet never intended to inflict injury on the
farmers, and if he had thought that his propoiitions would have
that effect, he might well have hesitated before he submitted
them to tne House. If the necessities of this country
demanded that the people should make sacrifices, he
believed that they would willingly make them ; but he be-
lieved, that there was no necesiity for that which was now pro-
posed, and if there were a necessity for sacrifices, let them fall
with equal weight and pressure uperfall classes of the commu-
nity. Now, what was the first proposition with reference to
farmers ? Wny, that a farmer who rented a falai of less then
3001. a year, should not pay one farthing of income tax ; and
besides, the farmer was to be entirely free from the scrutiny
which, after all, was felt to be the master grievance.—( Hear. )
The second proposition was, that when the rent was above 3001.
a year, the profits should be assessed at only one-half. The
general belief was, that that was proposed to secure the good-
will of the 5.1. tenants; that it was intended as a sop to Cer-
berus—a means of satisfying the great leoded monster of this
country. He could not understand the ground of this distinction.
With reference to the tariff, his great objection was, that the
Right Hon. Baronet did not first secure a reduction in the price
of bread. Many persons doubted whether the proposed alte-
ration in the Corn laws would, on an average of years, at. all
affect the price of wheat, though-it might,and probably would,
secure a more regular trade. Many of the duties were re-
duced 50 per cent. ; for example, the duties on articles of ma.
nufacture in brass, pee ter, copper, shoes, gloves, and furs.
The effect would be, to throw thousands of ss orkpeople out of
employment, whilst no material alteration would be made in
the price of food. He firmly believed that the Right Hon.
Baronet intended to benefit the country ; at the same time, he
must repeat his conviction that the proposals made would have
a most Injurious effect on the interests of the great body of the
working classes of this country.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.")
Much had been said with respect to the introduction of cattle.
The Hon. Gentleman who spoke last said, that on this score
they were greatly alarmed in Ireland. If the landed interest
of England would but investigate the subject—if they would
but give due consideration to what were really the wants and
necessities of the working people of this empire—if they but re-
flected on the immense amount of wealth they themselves accu-
mulated, in consequence of their having given freedom to the
commerce of this country, they would be satisfied that in order
to improve their own possessions, and acquire security fsr their
'own property, they must unfetter the giant of commerce in
this country, and by so doing they would retain what they had
already acquired. He therefore trusted that the Right Hon.
Baronet, before considering the question definitively, would
take a review of his proposition, and notwithstanding the cla-
mour that might be raised by interested parties, that he would
see that it was not inccnsistent with his duty to make a pro-
posal to the House which would have the effect of bringing
wheat into the market at a lower price than at present. If the
Right Hon. Baronet did so, he would be hailed as one of the
greatest blessings which this country ever produced in the shape
of a Minister. Millions and millions would bless his name.
Mr. STUART WORTLEY had no desire to prolong the
debate, but he would not let it close without making an obser-
sation on the extraordinary statement of the Hon. Gentleman
opposite, namely, that certain exemptions were allowed to the
farmer which were not given to other classes. He (Mr. Wort-
ley) denied that there was anything like an exemption in the
proposed general arrangements. It was perfectly :rue that the
assessment was to be made on the farmer according to the pro-
portion of rent paid to the landlord. The Hon. Gentleman
asked why any distinction was made between the agricultural
tenant and the tradesmen in towns on the subject of the
income tax? The Honourable Gentleman appeared to be at
a loss for an answer to that question. The answer
was very obvious. It was simply this, that in the
case of the agricultural tenants, they had something which
multi be taken as a test of the amount of property on which
the assessment was to be laid ; whereas, with respect to per-
sons deriving incomes from trades and professions, no such test
existed, and they were therefore compelled to make an inquiry
before the assessment was made. With respect to the propor-
tion to be laid on the tenant, that might form a subject of dis-
cussion, but it was a totally different question from the one