The Sun.
London, England, 1816-09-19 00:00:00

VOLICh OF TfrO MnTROPOLIS.

:CIVIL,LIO SIMPSON tratinedj
\Vliere do you live ?-131,
tViiat are you,)--A haberdash'eV liosler;

Wre yot a builder also?--I bare built a 'le*

hauset.

Did you ever build any boats fcir
houses I—One.

•
1
Did pin ever nuke any 1110kt:tam's for that
!mine tO he Hernieti ?—Yes.
To whom ?—To- the Milgisirtites.
To wliat magittratea4—Sir Daniel Williams,
and others whom I (1111110 i name. .

Did you apply, very often ?---Three or four
years, I catinot'tifiy which.
And was ctittatanily refused ?-Ires.
Were you .40,fritt successful
By what niefinsl—Continiiiii applicationl:
Did you apitifirio any one to intercede with tht
tnagist rat fiir.you partietthirly.
Did you form any connection with airy particn.
far brewer for the purpose of inrt4e!:ing your &am
sjectl--Nof any in particular.
What do you ineitti byP not any in part;cular ?"
I.applieri to hieSsrs.•Harthury and-Co ; 1 asked
then) if they hail any influence with any (;t the
luag,istratet',.and they said they could not,give
nu instructions in the least.
Did ran put the honse in Messrs. llanbury's
till-deft-1 did.

flinvv soon'after yon pat the house hi tlicir trade,
did .you .get your itotte licensed ?-1 did not put
it in hid trade till I got the license.
Did Mr. Ilanbttly give yoo io doderstand that
he would ,11Koeurg-, you that IiCCCISC if you dealt
you'givZl'Mr. Hanbuty to unclerstauil (hut if
you got vrttrilic'ettlie }'an would deal with him ?
Na..

Viet) you mean fa tell the Committee, that you
went to Mr. ilattbnrY as a triend, and asked hint
if he could assist yott itt 'getting is license; be told
you he could tin nothing its it ; and that, having
made application fur three years successivtly with-
out .success, the teitit of that conversation ►tith
Ilanbury '(who tok yort he could do nothing
ii it) was to get you is license at thy next lift
censing day did, alter three years' trying
but it Was on arcotint Of the n'cighhn►trboud in.
creasing, and that there Wts one wanted.

having failed itt getting. the license fur flirts
years,, you at last bethought yourself to apply to
Mr. Millbury, and the mink of that Aril)'minim'
to Mr. Ilunbury 'wns your getting a license the
next licensing doy 'lv you think
.he bad nothing
to do with it ?--1. applied the very first year to
Mr. Hatibay, that was the time
,I applied.
'dnly apply once to Mr. Hanbury )--I
applied seveiul tittles the first year, but not after.
wards,

[iottN dicIPORD, 'gm. a Nagistrale, examined.]
.Wliut division do you belong to ?—Worsliip.'
street.

You arc the principal magistrate of Worship•
street am the senior magistrate.
Do you bold any other situation I—None what*
ever. '

How nrAily clerks ere there in the office 2--Two;
Is tirtre any extra clerk t—Noo none at all.
Are the clerks solicitors I—The senior clerk is:
Does he practise as a solicitor in the office
No.
Pr his attendance regular ?:---Yes.

The attelidlncle.of both of them, daily ?1-671711:
h the' attemlatre,of the magistrates daily,„aei
cording trintti?lbtV( Parliament ?—I cannot ray
according to the Act of Parliament, because the
Net direct* tlkeookcson.be opened,from ten in the
morning till titree .the afternoon ; but we hare
Nutt! from experience,. that .the public service
will ant he at,all forwarded by opening the office
ten !o'clock, 'end it very seldom happens that
we close it at three ; it has„ltappcned to me with
in these last two weeks to be sitting constantly
employf-tell within a few minutes of five o'clock.
Are there there mestistratcs attend according to
the provisions of the,.act of parliament ?—Yes.
Have you any assistance from the county ma..
gistrateis 1.--Nery little.). 1 think • but once within
the last twelve months, 'to the best of niy
lect ion.

Is your attentlance regular, in the evening
Yes.

Dues any ore-Sleep at the office ?---!sleep at the
Office ; I cqntlok.say4liat I reside there, because
residence' is inkpotiltle, there being only three
rooms, and thOir).'on" the attic story.
Is there any'eletk'or constable, or housekeeper,
sleep. there ?7,.-Yes,, an office keeper and his fso.
.
So thlit 'hi 'case of anytegnest being made fur
.a
roagistraie,, you can he sent for at a few moments'
warning i—Yesi; when 1 sleep there, which is
trequem, I give ,constant orders to my 'officers to
call me at any hour of the night, if My assistance
should -be necessary
What is. the extent . of the juristrli titm of, the
public office of Worship-street ?-111eititistliction
of the office is not accurately defined ; the parishes
which.make.their general application to • us for
bnsiutss are St. I.4tit; e's, St. Leonard, Shot-di-telt ;
Christ ChUrelt: ?Middlesex; Sr. Matthew, Bethnal-
green ; Mile-end Netv—lown ; St. John's, Hack..
ney ; ,St. Mary; lslfiiLrcr ; and Occasionally Oa•
risks much
.beyntml tlwou.
Have you teat couttahles belonging to the office.?
—1 think' at present nine.
Do you cooceiye that:you hare as many ,as• are
requisite .for the bottinestr. of
.the office ?r--I can
only say, that the constables colophin that they
are starvin,4 ; 1 think more might br beneficially
enlptoyed.
HaVe the constables any other ocenpatino
sides their situation in the police-office ?•-...!N0t to
my knowledge.
;re
Arcnot,
Haan they tradesmen, and keep shops ?—That Al
not
I can say some of them I know do
`Dfloteyirosualcaornysiitskorniehagtuiaitesaupize‘tviet,„?l—aryYL73y
no means. ....
What should you consider sufficient to enable.
von to wore. to tile police proper officers
should tltiuk a Oise(' salary of something Wort

, • ./
, • "
. an e guinea a week, with. ihme contingent ad!.
Vantftos, according to the setvires'iterfortnetl.
Should yon not think that those contingent- ad-
vanftiges, according to the 'services performed,
are atrinch better mode of .payinent, than allowing
The egmtanies. to share those rewards. gietto by
acts of parliament foi the apprehension and cou.-.
'Viction of offenders 1.-.-Yes, beyond all doubt.
Have you any doubt that 'it .woulVbe a Much
better plan for the carrying on :of public justice
than the mode now pursued I—lnfinitely better.
Do you not think that, judging of, the motives
of Police-officers by the motives that 'govern or-
dinary melt, they might he induced to let offenders
•purine:ii full career of crime unchecked, till they
have committed that crime frptu which they them-
-4.-!itai!cr shire something in the nature of
rew.ard by apprehending the criminal I—Speakiug
from personal observation, nod 'the experience of
IS years in thee office where I bow act, I-have no
reason for thinking that such iois-4eta the case
thut: if J. alit 'asked 11/e •trittsrino as to a general'
01)1114)1),A:wined upon the knovrktdge of •61111130;
--11aittre; .1 should cettainly think it might produce
that elfet.!
From your own observation as a magistrate, do
y013'01'111; .that the moruls of the lower orders of
people are ameliorated, 'are statioiwy, or oil the
ciechie ?.....Woefolly on the deeline. -
Have you had a "midi greater number of offend-
ers brought before you at late years, than when
voa-tict•t perforntid the duty ot a- magistrate 1—
) really nave tint. hail au opportunity of. referring
.ko napery to ascertain that fact.; but .certaiirly the
!lumbers of Ilan-dors brought before •uS within
ihese few months are much greater than they have
been for some yeari past.
Are they .for heavy offences, or for petty of-
Voces, picking pockets, and other stnall crimes 1—•
I\l ally for heavy offences. • 'll' '••
i I the you malty persona brenight before you for
picking pockets I—Not many, escrpt fur hustling
in the streets, and makine'a forcible .attack.
• -Are those principally boys, or men I—A large
proportion boys.
Are yon aware that, of the persons that are
committed to the diff,rent • prisons in the metro-
polis for picking of pockets, a' very great majo-
rity of them are not brought to trial by the Grand
July throwing out the bill I—l ant nut aware of
that fart.
Fins the number of juvenile depredators in-
creased of late years I—Certainly 'I am speaking
tfis'itir .as tartlet' observation and exparience go.
Cati you state to •the Committee any cause for
that eireumitatice?—The incrensed prOnigicy of
the lower .classes,of people.
,„
thinklhat the of:,dronkenness
ore inceetried amonght 11.4 lower orders 7u--•
I do believelt , 'certainly.
Are•inatrYpublic‘houses lieense'd at your office I
`Nolfe tit the '<Altai but •in the dlsirict 4,gr,egt
many.
• Are you in the district tif the Toiver Hamlets ?
Y.ts'i'aive: toe 1• we twit for it.
Votrtake particular care. when an applica-
tion is made to you to establish a new public-
time, 4,;) NOCICIIIIrII,,by the,teariaaony•of reputable
householders, :or by.yourcsis.vvti .titainination!, that
4.tite Wants- of the tieigliboarimod.recprire atm esta-
hlishment of that house, and that the
.person
latching' the, Ffraente is one of ropUtable character
and good behaviour --?-.4lravoca; iunsitt. the-office
•tender 'it. impossible .for .1110,10- attend coitstautly
'on the Niew, which-magistrates take of new houses
proposed to be licensed ; but I do hot believe
that any such rumination ,for such I purpose
tAktitt place rt
• kVhat knowledge. then, dci Yhtitobtain -of.the
'character of the person solic4iugfitelicense?,-.-
Frum the eertificate which ,ASiveritpred;'signed by
the minister, the majority tiff the paritib•officere)
and other,respeetable inhabitant,.
• Arc you not aware that-it is stated by Mr Col-
inhottn, in his book upon Indigence, that it is.the
ordinary practice in the=etropolii for .the =inj-
ect' of the parish .toigive Iris signature: as -a mere
'waster of form, .the -beadle leceiving a small fee;
,stud the -person • soliciting the license obtaining
Such signet-are ?--I have not 'read Mr.Colquhoun's
book .of Indigenci; and 1 am-very sure aunt such
'ls not generally the case.
• Do you know that the clergyman and
bona fide Allow, when they !sign •the
certificate, that .the 'person demanding the license
is • tlnalifietl ..to have. it
.?—1 can -may take it for.
granted that no MU svoulal so fear' forget the•tinties
of.a 'clergyman as, to urn tt 'hi.S'l`olOartirc to a fact of
`which he was not
.perionallredgiihant. -
• Do you require at your office the signature of
the clergyman ; are you'not riatiiitilfat the Act of
•Parliarnent is satkfied if it is iitoll'ed by reputable
•honsekeepere 1.-1 ant perfectly aware of what the
Act of Parliament requires ; but l• conceive the
,magistrates, haVe a discretion, and thatin the ex-
ercise of that discretiowthey aretticonsider what
'Conduces most' •to the interest of •the-pribliei 'anal
the presqvation moraliv; is like-
-100 in' the eaercise of that discretion, I appr bend, that the iiigniiiire-of the minister has been,
thought, if not absolutely neeemsary, highly ex;
i)edieta.. and ptoper.
„ -
pup it often .happen, when the license
that 'at number of houses are reported to the
bench as being very ill ovorage(ll.--41 ,belicve it
does; I have mange such reportainyaelf.
./Jas- it often happened Adtar-e'the licenses have
been taken 'away -?--Scarcely# ercerm ~.
When a house is repottetliasiTof had character,
.What part do the licensitigirtogierates take upon
that report ?—I really attilibtepntßettint•to..speak
to OW .present time, cOtTvolisub.dissatisfied With;
the• prdeeedings•of the licensing magistrates, when
did attend; that thave •in -a great ,01C23111C &lb.;
.scutett wyelffrorn rharmectiag. . '
Who are the liceniing•magistrates in that,dis,-
trict tbe niagistratce living in or acting
in it.

Is Sir Daniel IVilHams one of them I—He is the
chairman of the licensing meeting.
And ;kir. Merceron _
And Major Jackson I—Yes, generally ; I am
speaking now of the time when 1 atfentlett.
-Is it not the practice on those lieenshig- days to'
consider the report of the police magistrates
against Any public-boustiat4 'decisive reason, on-
.less sach.report is centr6ilicteetby other evidence,
_anti ,47 „authorizing th-e iiingiltrate to refuse the
license ?—No; I can speak positively to that eir-

elnnstattee, Iron, having last year reported a very
disorderly house at no great diStunci froM I,ly
own office, aid %eat n competent AVittleS.i to t'Sta-
' bbsl.3 tbefacts ; notwitbst,uding which, the house
was licensed.
: Whit:Was the Ilfittlre of the complaint that you
made against the house ?-1 have it nut in lay
immediate recollection what the specific complaint
was; it .was some very gross misconduct, general
misconduct, I believe.
Riot, drunkenness, and debauchery ?—lly re-
ferring to antes I can ascettain • the fact, but I
cannot immediately recollect it.'
Were you present during the time the propriety
of granting or refusing This license was taken into
..consideration was not ; I was detained by
unavoidable business at my lace.
Do you know whether the complaints that you
made agaitiwt • the had character aud,conduct of
that house are now as well founded as what they
were when you made them i—No, I- do not know
that.

Do you know whether the house is in the smile
condition now a 8 forliierly i—No ; 1 have reAson
to think it is not, because 1 have had no further

Complaints against it.
Po you know to Ivhom the house belonged, or
who VHS the 'scrum that supplied it with liquor
and sphiti ?—Noi I,caitnot recollect now ; but I
think it .WAS some person resident in Shotedueh.
Generally s•peaking, are licenses granfed and
continued in that jurisdiction with a • facility flint,
you think prejudicial to the public morals, because
granted awl continued to houses ot batt•charucter ?
In my opinion they tr!.!.
. Are there many iviases that are- technically•
called " Flash-houses" in that district i—There
-are some.
• lo which thieves, and prostitntes, and persons
of the worst .character, assemblotogether
tainly.
Hive 'repeated complaints been made against
those houses to. the licensing magistrates %—1
not competent to say that, for I have nut attended
them lately.
YOU Old mot attend those meetings, because von
found that little' or no good .resulted front that at-
tendance, in refusing the -licenses of those in
-mous house ?-,-Nlost certainly.
Have you as a magistrate any authority to,shnt
up a house, orsuspend.as license, for notorious
:bad conduct, between time days of- licensing
None;whatever, to my knowledge:or belief.
:Do you think ,that it would :bet advisable that:

upon a regular 'conviction before the sessious, ut
the Lousy-being the resort of notorious thieves,
anti 'persons of loose, idle, and profligate charac-
ter, it 'wvuld he a very desirable plan that some-
thing of that Hod should take place ?—Certainly.
DO you not think that One of the great causes
of the depravity of putilic„.ntorals in thii inetropo-
li's arises frimi the oiteit'Sive spirit-drinkiog 'which
takes place ?—I ant as fully convinced of it as
. .
apt of trry own eNtstenct.

tstorbat boors ft,re the public-horses and spirit,-
shoiks
.shut in your division
loupes have ,orilerA t4O sltt up nt eleven o'clock ;
kootving the spirit shops to be illegal, the poT
lice„magistpttes tnice no cognizance of theta what-
,e:ver as to, giving directionl..
Do you
.not think that, accordine, to the Act
of 'Parliament; the taking 011 t a notoinAl beer li-
cense, and in fact selling nothing but spirits, is
decidedly ?--Decidedly rendered illegal by
-the 17; Geo, •

As you think those spitit-shops are decidedly ii-
legali why are they not suppressed ?—That is a
question, I cannot Answer : they ought to be sup-
pressed, anti licenses ought slot to be granted.
'IS it not within' yonr jurisdiction, as a Police
Magistrate, to suppress them we cannot
act against the spirit shops, unless an intnnua.
Lion is lodged befare us lc:reciting spirits without
a license ; and if the fact were proved before 'me,
on the oaths of credible Witnesses, that a. wan,
having a beer license, kept a spiritrshop
without selling beer at .all; I. should have no besi-
,tation in convicting:him under the ,17 Geo. 11.
Arc there not in point of fact tutiby hpoits of
that nature known to your office I—Many how,ei
apparently of 'that- nature ; nest- that. 3 haie.beeo
`able: to Ascertain them to be entirely•so. •
Is it R subject 'of polite regulation to which you
have paid particular attention I-1 have paid par-
ticular attention to it.
Flave any steps beet: taken by the magistrates in
your division to ascertain whether those houses do
deal in beer or not ?-1 have particularly desired.
and indeed'directedsoch inquiries to be made, but
,as yet no result fists been, reported to me.
• !lave those directions been recently given ?
Within these three months ; anti 1 have. given
notice of a motion at .the Quarter •Sest•inns on
this very subject.
Do you believe that the regulations of the Po-
lice, that the public-houses should he shut rip at
eleven o'clock, are ittended to strictly 1-1 have
reason to think they are not:'
Uuderwhose care is it placed to enforce those
regulations am nut aware. of any power to
enforce them, except that. discretionary power
vested in 'thelitensing magistrates of the diStrict
to "refuge the renewal of Amy license to a person
who has disobeyed those orders and those reguLa-
tions which they have issued, and which they
think it necessary to enforce.
—But, 'as far'ai your experience has gone, the'
licensing magistrates. (lave never paid any atten-
tion to ascertain the fact, whether their own re-,
gefations are attended to or not ?-.r.1 am not aware
that they have: I. eantwt say positively that they
haVe nor.

Is it not the general belief-in that district, that
provided piiblicans deal withparticular individuals
for beta; there woolifbe no difficolty in getting
their licause•on the licensing chi)? ?,-,Suelt q belief
certainly prevalent.
110 -
. a
yon not'believe it to be the geueritl prac-
tice of the licensing magistrate, ',luta the day of
granting fresh' liceniesi to .th/u.re if any coin -
pinints are lodged against the person who applies
for that license ?---lt is so.

Are you not of opinion', that if the orders given
by the Magistrates for the regulation of the 11-
Ceinted houses were not attentird to, cooplaints,
would be made against the itul;vidolds
beying their orders ?-1 du not 1Ln0,4 ; I cannot j

•
there would tint ; ff the-instancts were very:
glAring, they would..:
.
llas it not often ontirrell to yoni or is it not
within your
.own knowledge, tl:at complaints
have been laid against the conduct of publicaOs,
which, according to your judgment, ought to
ha%e deprived them of their licenaes, or prevented
their renewal, and yet•no notice'llas been taken of
them by the licensing Magistrates ?--,-instances
have occurred where coMplaints hose been made,
and the licenses tetNwed but not to my know-
ledge where no notice has been taken of the
Complaint.,
t was meant by the expression f' no notice,"
no punishment in the nature of a dcpriyatiou of
the license had follo'wed that report )Certainly,'
instances of that kind have occurred.

To what Trisool do yon commit 2—Sometimes
to the NewPrisou, sometimes to the House of
Correction for re-examination, and sometimes to
New4ate when folly committed for trial.
What distance is the public-,ollie, Worship-
street, from all those three prisons 1-lahcinld
think from a mile and a half to two miles.
lei what way are the prisoners conveyed back-
wards and forward. ?.-rSumetimes in a coach, and
otnetitnem on lout.

11 they pay for the coach, they are conveyed in
it apprehend the' is the case : in some in-
stances 1 have directed than to be sent by a coAch,
and ordered the money to be !mid.
13nt, generally speaking, the prisoners are hand-
mitred two and two, and paraded through the
streets from the office to the place where they
are committed ?—Nut having seen them, !cannot
say ; 'hut 1 believe that to be the case.
•Are you aware shat the New Prison at Clerk-
enwell is one of the worst managed prisons in
the metropolis ?--,No, i am by' tic means aware
ot

Do yon know that in that prison persons of all
ages, and for all offences, are mixed imliscrimi-
nstely together ; that tilt re is' no allowance of
bedding or blankets, or even straw ?—\-o, I ant
not aware of that fact, certainly.
Do you attend the licensing of public-houses in
the Borough do, occasionally.
Is great
,attentioti paid there by the licensing
Magistrates to the correction of any abuses that
may arise in the public-houses, by refusing to re-
new licenses %where complaints of such public-
houses have been laid before them

Do you not think that the neglect of correct-
ing the mismanagement of public-houses, by .re
fusing the renewal of licenses, is not, on the part'
of the licensing 11agistratts, doing that which ma.:
terially affects the morals of the publia %.7-1 have
llottlit of its influence on the morals of-th
public.
Is there a regular correspondence carried on
between your office and the different public police
offices in-the metropolis €--Certainly not . '
•Do,you.not tiriok that the public justice would
be .very much furthered if such a correspondence
wits tiaily-earried on, in respect a. greater of-
fences chile!( t14,4t a freOent-conitutirticinfolt
Might be productive of great benefit iii tire dii-
covery of tdrences but the tact is, thatthe
ferent fstt;fp +belt• infornoliisti to
themselves, and do not wish 10 comnploicale it to
others, that they may have the (.161Ft-I:tad adritn-
Cage of (!erecting oifenticri,
.1)o- you unt think it would be adOienfrie to re_
model the several police r.itablistnnents- of the.
metropolis,
,to ourlte•nne.-central*lioard,-Vvhich
won't! hold a general correspondence with
different police establislitnenti. within the nietril.
polis not prepared to say it would •be'fol-
!weed with advantage ; I iktive not contider'cil is
maturely cuough to satisfy toy 'mind it would be.
14(it you are prepared to sky; that-at present;
there is little or no correspondence going on•bei.
tweet) the different offices, and that it would be
an:advantage to the public if there was ?L--Cer-
tainly it would : thereis flood at present, iiirthcr
than this, that we take up our iimathly reports to
the Secretary of State, and which ar'e afterwards
tent to Sir -Nathaniel Conant, whereby he is schg-
nizant of all'tbe proceedings of the other officti.
(To be continued.)