The Sun.
London, England, 1845-06-04 00:00:00

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written, Printed, and published, Kee' '
aeon
and the Noble Marquis won
Tres at liberty to make of it what use he pleased.—( Hear, hear. )
theThtla". Marquis Of NORM A.NRY held the printed report of
h . ,
....le's e arge in his hand, and he read from it extracts in which
allied !!'tei...ll,.rt Re.v. Prelate d.eum,inced the doctrines of Popery as
stial stn
s,'", ‘se arid-soul-den-mires ' and urged his clergy to re-
,,t to n much as possible their " flocks " from employing as
servant .
Oral' 3, or retaining as tenants, persons tainted with the. iin-
t 1 . I`l "ral and pernieious creed. The Right Rev. Prelate wa- re..
"a-ti e Pr'sented also to have inculcated the doctrine of " exclusive
'aoei ',
dealing in the same addre( Hear, hear. ) The Notee
liiie intern uls was continuing to read the document when he was
toll ''. ruPted by
iti ' • thalrhe Bishop of CASHEL, who rose and said—l say that
obi . and Is; from beginning to end, an abominable falsehood
oldcir ! ion secsa_larnnY—( Loud cheeers)—and
Nobles say further, that it
e.
na`unts discreditable of the f
Iltrlealra uis, who mu•t
qnd -have been well
,er• aentia`:'._ position as Lord-Lieutenant
os , the_ trued with the character of the nisi' people, to have had
th' 1., eharge ha his pocket for the last two years, anever hare
'Token of it
usend the Noble
elf, till no ' ( Renewed cheers )—and Ina ilk' recem-
IA Marquis to be more cautious, and to read ten h
ip mere attention any stories he may receive from Ireland, which
het et. be sea.„ ,
te' • No inedned to bring forward the next %tine he is in
tnt or a speech. (Cheers, and cries of tt Orde )
0 DiAlarquis of NORMANBY—I believe I have shown the
et Ott Reverend Prelate every courtesy ?
Efst
rt oriel-4°l, of CASHEL—No, Sir, you have not.—(Loud
~,,_ Ll' " Order, order.")
,e
I ett'enre Marquis of NOMAN BY said he only received the
i' he had been reading yesterday ; and he would now pro-
sreed
t° read it, as the letter of a person who had been present
e en the Right Reverend Prelate was delivering his charge,
t 11:d timenveying
3 e the impression that charge made upon him at
I 1.. The writer was a Protestant clergyman. .
f °l'd }-lstslll F VILLE rose to order. He dii think that
1 tlolt7 the
denial
Right' Rev. Prelate had given a distinct
it
ttarte statement of the letter, as read by the Noble Marquis,
The not .
, T,. tbe fair or just in him to proceed. ,
1, t," Marquis of NORMANBY—The Noble Lord was
thr-aeig* The Right Rev. Prelate had not. denied the truth of
taiele,i'atement. He del not say that there was nothing con-
e.
~ Tehee,n.the letter similar to the contents of the charge.
sr? 2%
ciu.l3lshop of CASHEL said he would send the Noble
The Ilaa cop).
of the chat ge.
°f
fid thererraisshooftNOß.NolrAd NaßY—lf the Right Rev. Prelate
truth in the letter, why then,
,eibi;stue,ishheop(Lord I\Tiormanby) would be silent.
CASHEL said that the printed charge was a
charge he delivered.
t4e letta larqtus of NORMANBY would now proceed to read
l'r'riteasetlie:::inPY.ooorrfder to show the impression made upon the
The 1 the charge at which he was present.
tletik'tttarl of WINCHILSLA rose to . order. He did not
this woe n House should listen to the opinions of individuals in.?
lesst(eesY if they did, he would ask, where was it all to end
iei.-art hear..)- The Right Rev. Prelate had
. stated that the
eed. eontained what was false, therefore it should not be
Tit--(Cheers, and criel of " Order.")
tete ta Marquis of LassnowsE and the Earl of Wicxeow
tot,„e)3e to order, but the latter gave way to the former, who
`4ls perfect that his Noble Friend (the Marquis of Normanby)
shootingst rt'atie in order in reading the contents of a. letter,
the •
char Impression made upon the mind of the writer by
The ege•-•-( Hear, hear. )
Ley to "earl of WINCHILSEA did not think it fair or just to
Th an that such a course should be pursued.
alit i: :lasetais of .NORMANI3Y said the Noble Earl was
the rt-sarder, and he would now proceed to read the letter of
..a3 otestant
Pre, clergyman, whose name he would give, who
...;cslisste er!t at the charge, and who, at that time, received the
"gla 1- °' the Right Rev. Prelate for visiting a national
l'e • (Ch -
..11ei- eering..,
let of ari of WICKLOW said the Noble Marquis was not
be
et order, but he would put it to him whether it would not
ther order,
a sound discretion nut to pursue this course tur-
it-set near, hear.
Pere: Marquis of NORMANBY said he would now read that
heteepanf the letter which referred to the personal encounter
lu M
kb' the writer and the Right Reverend Prelate. The
in ar •
e. %bat ems then proceeded to read the passage, which was
tanifeifanice that the writer declared he could never forget the
Mid
aatierejteurilyngs he suffered, when, after a residence of a quarter
ee ln that parish (Clashmore) he heard himself thus
heir, bosh,, bishop for caving visited a national school, and
If it e. E d that no Protestant clergyman should do so, even
thee ere only for the ur oSe of geeing e rules. The writer
13:'.ef"Wreent 'ln to say hi: fopuud he-had forge er lost all chance of
he't 0,-aut; &e.---( Laughter and cheers.) He (the Marquis
tl tv'risTtianhY) heard the Noble Lord opposite cheer; but
'illye' ask him was that the treatment a clergyman of
dhands Sears' residence in a parish ought to receive at the.
ye :tf his bishop, bt cause he had gone to see the rules in
i'T'ttatitr;`?.....a,
rschool'estalslished by then Government of his
t, 9 that kesectud cheers.) The w last. went on further to
that
el" Right Reverend Prelate added that he would
,
taslal s're,," r?t, school at all in the country than the Na-
nd the'"°°'3."'—(Continued cheers.) That was the letter,
itekell.,32lisialb-ojerove,;rt7iteb(rii,ol it was the Rev. Mr. Maccassv, rector of
ear, hear.) He would not follow. up
t.., • Prelat ) repeating the expressions used
.by the Right
uoese e, which were too coarse for repetition in that
‘ed I an't which
s •••••( si the Right Rev. Prelate. should never have
4:',e fr\ ear, hear.) The Noble Marquis then rea.d a pas-
*he 't.° a lweetter from a Protestant cwlrgwybmeraen in Larne,
isistre there
the writer
141,4.i.here
was
no
12,000_. inhabitants,a
iilrbioners
t, es tee,
ee , against the grant..—( Hear, hear.) He (the
ime g,a ' .•Norinar.by) regretted that this measure had not
"a
Irere Ilted Whenethe repeal agitation was completely dea
tasjeritnd ; but even now he ho aid to see it carried by a large
t Tee bq their Lordships' H 1), (Cht ers. )
'0 •- uke -, ouse.7
' i 4itat. °I. WELLINGI ON said that he made no allusion
slit' -Ns -ere'44 Or tr, •
li kid D . - any meetings held in Dublin. These meet-
.t
saet, Oevoeot up for the purpose of compelling the Legislature
iti lsettl,4 over
of the country. to adopt the measure of the
the decision of
i 2 ir
orrl'ae Union, setting aside altoge.t
'it's Lesion tliPs' House on the Bill of exceptiohnesr. That was his
peal cake said that the Government was strongon and the
from
was weak. He did:not say a esoyd . agitation,
Belle
ottel cue could say what the course of agitation would be
eellere aY to the next. He said the repeal cause too—not
.4. 44 c
r‘ eak. sitholic cause—( A laugh)—that the repeal cause
4-1,4,g flees !le took care to say, that as their Lordships were
.; till'ee Di,..'h'nould not persecute those who were weak. k
114;1:III:CI of
.CASHEL, in explanation of the:remar s
te Ili tette Luigirquis of Normanby, said that he would, show. to
and otu to the letter referred to. It was always painful
comet -na4-teiv" a number of apolications for vacant livings,
t IheeLdat Owt:''' 14
e ever have a better chance for speakieg,in a
- resieAtehbrseraatiner of himself than in such an application.
throe -"IN a, jun Pot DUBLIN said that he should trouble thir
Iseefg,hailt as
as possible. From the language used
.
Isere
ept7vollrehie country it would appear that all those who
Pi ;-nleile ete the grant were set down as indifferent
. to
,tlilt'it h.. „Re ese-clthe Protestant faith, and dangerous latitudtiiioian-,
oei.: oad (~-"'" say, in reference to the course of instrnusc
w_ 0
,it' tliqr• stlldlenat'sio‘n more than onee to examine perso h
keisii roti.„ In Maynooth, and who. sought employment
wh, wsLarit Church, having left their own. Also young
4 ITerith • ere expecting, situations as tutors after they left
01.-e ur anu he was eisposed to think that
.the
the al% bini!ttnutiori there must. be of. a very inferior
, description.
that 4.1. Nee e
r,,, ,ue,,ii eu, from conversing with many Roman Catholics,
144.,stiaIuu teege pas not well regulated as to the course of in-
le se it taught In it. He did not find fault with the college
tlitseetecight men to be Roman Catholics, for that was to
itts,' and sei.( Laughter. ) With regard to literature, h.is-
titi,Nentt le;'et he thought it was susceptible of great m-
itt s-'1 an es., 'I making it a perpetual endowment they were
al, sr,,"attle -Mrtant check to its being again brought forward
ael,"‘tioe 'riteund of party • It appeared that the system of
41' %lei a.oPted there was' a shabby one, and he could not
l'`,, QN,15„1 '''
gto the conclusion, that it was, to a certain extent,
';n4,7l;otrisste-ee niggardly manner in which the college had
'011.,t.',," e -4," He must say, on behalf of himself and his
'); ' ;rl,' ,'"at they were not' to be considered es indifferent
61, kka;,,,t. ;lan; faith because of their refusing to join' this me-
esirrsse 'h"rincreased grant.'
He had the highest respect
Li% .'";
btit r h°e. h;s Homan Catholic brette en—( fir ar
,';:- to rn -- was not' 'more opposed to the
m ifian
4,'",:h,>4ldar.'L of those Protestants who believed that the
'Del "ra t "'Me a religion upon its subjects. If the civil
de ''''' Ras
oe e, the sto decide what the religion
'ltte%alLall err fate should make no difference between great
,d
tat ''' sy Curs; be' should exclude all sects that disagreed
idedoctsit:e"l it adopts,'. He called upon those who heall
esin7treeett
unless
follots out their principles
. and denounce
be
ts, ees th tness those for the Established Church. To
e 91:Le gralleYt should do so. He did not however understand
It 11i. - 001. could go against a
.nran's consclifenaciel
tae bee with his approval or acquieseencbe.
t"evei.,,,7i Said respecting Alaynoeth were true, e thou:sb.t
4t all7lent should rot tolerate the existence of the Col-
isiteie ner the priest. themselves,who were imbued with
' 4 lesiN4 doctrines whichs
it.waseaid to inculcate. They
' the, yen there
're 1 sole , the Bishops, on pain of break-
' Acre
_!"!'ll VOWS, to denounce that grant.
Is„ +elk different ways of driving out errors
tetLee 11„,l,r!i? their vows Was it by secular
-4i4iis stance}'- the sword? Sooner than do so he would re-
-4' erni4, and endeavour to earn his bread by the most
i- eve' nYraent•—(Hear, hear.) Ile would not resort to
4'l4sitithost;d4cttnewlzereretiouilvliderendeavour to drive out those who were in
,14.°h who taught fake and dangerous doctrines.
Roman Catholics, but he had over those
'loth netririe on, and if he found' among them any who
tel)er, tit) sof one Church, and received the emoluments
Deesse be. would drive out.—(" Hear, hear, ' and
p„_' of the 30 doing he considered he would best acquit
,0"' els,ohl:gation of his vows. There was a great dif-
lee ht
noetseo
giNiner and granting an endowment. The
re . of their
te. `4re s; s. libelonged to the nation ; and as lung
s.t 7re
shoes
tz Millions of persons, whom they might tell in
ele aPartof the nation— ( A laugh ) it was rni.culou•,
'lltqp;•l4/rde Manner as if the money had come from the
°tee ivate individuals.. It was a claim on the nation, and ~s
't. 4 Vath l' ei, 'le si.tot, 0 ics contributed to its funds it was wrong to
the tit" a Paltry endowment. He must also protest
4, 1.1: `nrY made against the word expediency.--( Hear,
1..1) et'sePerh°!es,sed. himself a votary of expediency.—( A
;',litte wh 'stud like to know what any one had to do in
0(1411 a Was not a man of expediency.—( Laughter )
hefoettioirna et there for the public expediency. There was
et lafety °I Public prayer that was said every evening
ittiottit ' and honour, and prudence of their Lordship's
t 4. Oe should if that was not consulting for public expe-
it oble like to know hat expediency was.—(Cheers.)
44,, heel-01'de. V%
were inclined to think despondingly of the
,rirelsZe it had been so much decried by the agita-
r4lalent a NYnY, he thought that, so far from that betin.g
eiiiitit ; forg:inst the Bill, it was rather an. argumen
ie4.lwes an Measure which tended to pacify and restore
kt, 44 Btir t
oneb censured by those whose trade was
still') on °Pini prevailed that the Roman Catholic
101) reland was united as one man; but the fact was
fiery,,: % there was a handful of people to agitate in
i-tir I.)'a lruig would th be aitators. The agitators,
ht number se ee're called themselves the people.
'ale; This re'rniuwdaedshim of a saying of Mr. Burke's,
15 king of a handfulof politicians thft spoke of them-
-lit e peo ,
seierueadette °I. England, said they resembled grasenop-
-0;4 ethos
which occupying a snug bank, made all the
111,te NI , the sole ecnpants of the meadow, whilst the
of " riot t4ceuUleants, ruminated quietly in the shades.
D Rnvestit It upon himself to say which was the proper
'evere lug Ireland a difficult problem to solve, as a
;Is all Rrel t esti] Ist
Neeshis , a e (Daly) had observed on the previous
to
of ne would say, that they should not consider
ere I°llo raj a few' agitators as the voice of the. nation,
e those "d the loudest clamour in Ireland against the
to Peace Who considered every measure bad which had
„r disilo and conciliation —the designs of such men
i '..
jtetldEby littepea:A. raise .a. hostile feeling between England
'rotßcv, petual agitation.—(Loud cheers.)
e d e'S rose amid loud cries for the Bishop of
de the e'euded the conduct of the professors of May-
rentsgerasPersons which had been cast upon them and
Iti.yi.oNvehait•ceurhraelloen,
eanodf
tchoenemluodsted by yin e that he thought
healinsag-, tr"anquillising, and
; qop, cectuld be devised for the advantage of Ireland.
tYll,ltleei to EXETER then rose and said, that he
' 4,..at th,',e tle call which I:ad been made upon him,
itkle roe real question at issue had been much departed
4, ()114 "e °f the present discussion. The origin of
, if it iir ,eerned to have been forgotten, and it would
07e 'god iad I?een founded and supported wholly by the
ti of
_u his hand a paper, from which it appeared,
4 1. el:galas first established upon sufferance upon the
4tier , who t.' Roman Catholic prelates, Dr. Troy among
for theo ~Presented the memorial to Lord Westmore-
e, bee`.9rd-i of Ireland. The memorial
*44t ie"
j 's licence to establish a college wherein
"cited for the Roman Catholic church,

But it must appear that this licence was in the first
instance, to enable Roman Catholics to endow
the College. The Act of Parliament empowered them to
receive donations, but the whole amount of donations re-
ceived by May noeth College from the Roman Catholics, tip to
1814, was 5,0001. , and not a penny since then. There was
a charge of arseaable parsimony made against the Parliament
towards the Roman Catholic college of Maynooth, which he
considered wholly unfounded. `I he only miserable parsimony
which he could detect was in the Roman Catholic squire-
archy of Ireland, anti it was for those the Noble Eari who
spoke last night (the Earl of St. Germans) had reason to
blush for the state of ruin and degradation to which May-
nooth had been brought. The words of the Act of Parlia-
ment proved that Maynooth was not regarded originally as a
corporatien—it was an institution supported originally by
mere chance endowments ; and Parliament did not, he re-
peated, originally recognise it in the light of an institu-
tion which hsd any claims upon the State.--( Hear hear. )
They were told that a visiterial power was to be exercised,
hut what would he the value of visiting, when they had no
right to interfere with the doctrines which were taught at
Maynooth ? Visitors in such a case would be of nu value what-
ever.—( Hear. ) Again it was said that the reason why the insti-
tution was not properly supported was the poverty of the people.
Tots could not be the case. There was no want of wealth among
the Roman Catholics of that, country, especially among those
of the higher classes. Wealth was increasing in Ireland, and he
was clad of it, but it ought to be borne in mind that for the
last twelve years the wealthy Roman Catholics of that country
had contributed from six to seven thousand pounds to an insti-
tution for the propagation of the Roman Catholic faith in
Lyons. If they were satisfied with the character of Maynooth,
it was not necessary for them to go there with their money—
they would not have allowed the state of things, the want of de-
cency, and the absence of proper arrangements for the educa-
tion of the students to have existed. He wanted to know what
good the Bill promised to realise? The great want of Ireland
at the present time was men to teach them the duty they owed
to their God and their country—to remind them that their
first duty was to pay respect to the laws, to live at peace
with all men, and not only to cultivate peace themselves but
to set the example of peaceable conduct to others.—( Hear,
hear.) Reference had been made to the circumstances of Ireland,
and their Lordships had been told that there was some
excuse for the part the priesthood had taken in the
political t roceedings of that country.—( Hear.) He was
willing to make some allowance for those parties; but the re-
bellious and tumultuous proceedings which they countenanced
and defended were such as, by God's blessing, he should never
assist in communicating to the Christian character, least of all
to a Christian minister.—( Hear, hear. ) 'I he evil was, that
the character of the priesthood was taken from the character
of the people, and the real origin of it was in the exclusive sys-
tem of education pursued at Maynooth College. He did not
see how it was possible to educate 500 young men in a proper
manner by shutting them up in a monastic institution, making
them perfect serfs during the seven years of their education,
without connexion with the people, or association with the
superior classes of society. They led the lives of recluses,
destitute of all those associations and advantages that tended to
develop the manly character. They were not allowed during
their servitude, at any time, the privilege of walking in the
avenues adjoining the institution—to pass for a single moment
out of sight of their superintendents. And when their slavery
was at an end they passed at once from a state of complete
servility to a state of absolute despotism. From slaves they
at once were transformed into despots—( Hear, hear )—and went
forth among the people as the representatives of God—vices
genere Devon. In this country the education of
the Catholic clergy took place with the young
members of the nobility and gentry. This was not the
case at Maynooth, and hence the great difference in the cha-
racter of the Catholic clergymen of England compared Is-Ith
those of Ireland. There was no other institution in Ireland
more productive of evil than May nooth, and for that reason he
should vote against the motion before their Lordships for the
second reading of the Bill. He was some the wealthy Roman
Catholics of Ireland must be as desirous of sending their sons
to be educated along with those intended for the University as
were the rich Roman Catholics of England ; and the reason
why they had not done so was, according to his judgment,
because the system of education at Maynooth was so
degrading. The next question was, who should nominate the
students to be educated there? According to the proposed
measure, the patronage was to be vested in the hands of the
Roman Catholic Bishops. They were to have the appointment
of no less than 500 young men. Would not this be putting a
powerful ergine into the hands of the clergy?—a power which,
he contended, should alone be vested in the hands of the
Crown. It this would be considered giving undue power to the
Crown, another course might be taken ; the Crown might ap-
point four times the number to be admitted, and they should
afterwards be examined publicly by the Roman Catholic
Bishops in Dublin. Great benefit might be realised it some-
thing of that kind were adopted ; but there should be no such
monastic institution as that of Maynooth. In his opinion the
amount of the money was scarcely worth a moment's con-
sideration if the system pursued were satisfactory. For his
part, instead of one college he would have three or four col-
leges, somewhat analogous to those proposed in the other
House of Parliament for the education of the Roman
Catholic priesthood. But, he would have it a liberal educa-
tion, in connexion with the young men belonging to
the nobility anti gentry, and altogether different from the
monastic and exclusive system pursued at Maynooth. A
Right Rev. Prelate had been reflected on the previous evening,
because he could net name a remedy for the evils that affected

Ireland. Such a proceeding was unfair and unconstitutional.
The Rev. Prelate was not responsible for governing the
country. That duty rested with the Government. The
Ministry had voluntarily undertaken the duty of governing the
country, and it was no part of the duty of Parliament to take
the business of the Executive into its hands.—( Hear, hear.)
It was for the Government to bring forward their measures,
and then for their Lordships to judge of their
value and efficacy. He thought too much of the
wisdom of the Government to consider the present
measure the best that could be introduced by them.
The Noble Duke (the Duke of Manchester) had, in the debate
of last evening, referred to the conferences of the Catholic
priesthood, and there were proofs amply sufficient to show that
the statements made by the Noble Duke were well founded.
The common law inflicted the punishment of death by burning
those who were guilty of the crime of heresy. He need
only quote tl.e opinions of Dens, for the truth
of this assertion.--( Hear.) If their Lordships would
examine closely into the nature of the studies taught at May-
nooth, they would find that they were not opposed to these
conferences, and at all events, they were such as ought to
make their Lordships shrink from the pestilential stream they
were assisting by this grant to disseminate over Ireland. The
Right Rev. Prelate then proceded to read from Maldonatus,
the favourite commentator of Maynooth, in order to prove
the pernicious character of the doctrines taught there.
A very respectable clergyman who had been educated at
Maynooth had authorized him (the Bishop of Exeter) to say
that if their Lordships granted the Committee sought for by the
Noble Earl, he should be ready to appear before them, and to
detail the results of his experience there. In an examination
before that House, it was proved that Dr. M'llale, who was
the very impersonation of Maynooth, having been educated
there, having been a professor there, and not leaving it till he
was made Bishop. It was notoriously a fact, that on his visit
to Achill. he had cursed priests who had left their Church and
joined themselves to the Protestant faith. But this was only
the common spirit that actuated them throughout Europe, and
he would instance the protestation addressed by the Roman
Catholic Priests of Belgium, in 1815, to the King, when he
wished to confer civil liberties on all his subjects, without
distinction of sect. This showed at least the spirit by
which they were actuated, and the same spirit was
inculcated by the Catholic teachers of Maynooth.
Baron Richards, at the Castlebar assizes, in the year 1838,
had avowed the bigotry of the Roman Catholic priests, their
sinister influence on the people, and the effects of the perni-
cious teaching at Maynooth, to which a great proportion of the
crime of Itelai.d was to be trac, d. But the character of those
doctrines need not be discovered by a referenee to ati authority
so unprejudiced, yet unconneeted Dr. 5I hale. in an essa) on
the subject of dispensation. had set the tenets there held be-
lond all dispute. The deposing power, as acted upon by Pope
Pius XVII.. in 1801, in trying to establish the succession of
Louis XVIII., and acknowledged by the Irish bishops in 1809,
was equally and as incontestible the doctrine still upheld. The
elas:-book de penitentia instructed nothing less than perjury in
i;s most abhorrent and revolting form, and the question, there-
fore was, were the Government ready to endow, with the funds
of the State, and identify with the Constitution a college that
propounded and instructed a system of unqualified perjury?
He, for one, trusted that the House, when put in possession of
su,th incontrovertible facts, would exclaim " Non-Content " to
the provisions of such a mea-ure.
Lord BROUGHAM could not understand the discrepancy
between the line of arguments adopted by the Right Rev. Pre-
late and the opponents of the Bill, either on the Ministerial
or the cross benches. The two Noble Dukes who had so ve-
hemently protested against the measure, exclaimed in horror,
" Idolatry, superstition, abominable doctrines, everything that
the Minister ought most to discountenance, were to be en-
dowed." Such were their arguments, and to s.), the least of
them, they were intelligible—they were logical, and calculated
to carry conviction. But the Right Rev. Prelate contended
in a far different strain—" I object to a system that would
endow one institution where the false ultra-montaine doctrines
were propounded; but withdraw those tenets, purge the reli-
gi,n of such abhorrent views, and I will vote for the endowment
of four colleges for the teaching of the Roman Catholic faith !
What, four colleges, for one of which the Noble Duke had ob-
jected so-strenuously. The Right Rev. Prelate had said also
that the State did, in 1794 and 1795, not endow the college,
hut gave the Catholic faith a power of voluntary establishing
an institution which, though not endowed, was endowable by
the State. But the fact was that, in 1795, the Act of Geo.

111. was passed, and in all hut the word co-operation, every
trust, even powers for grants of money, and lease of
property was accorded the Institution.—( Hear, hear. )
And as to merely holding of the trusts, it would not be suffi-
cient to make them a corporation, if new powers were not given
to them in their eapasity of visitors.—The grand omission in
the Act was that there was no mention of a corporation—that
was all. The words of the preamble of the Bill, that " Wheraas
there was a college fir the education of Roman Catholics, and
the funds were insufficient, it was desirable to support and
endow that college," &c. There were three Acts passed in
the reign of George 111. —a Prince above all others distin-
guished for his attachment to the Protestant religion—a Prince
who was most religiously opposed to the anti-Protestant doc-
trines of the Humanists. Under whose auspices was the last
Act (the 48th of the King) passed ?—( Hear, hear.) It was
under the auspices of Mr. Percival who succeeded upon Pro-
testant principles—( Hea., hear)—the Government of Lord
Grey.—( Hear, hear.) It vias under his auspices that the
grant was continued, and that in the new Act the word " en-
dowed" was introduced.—(Hear, hear.) He knew as well as
the Noble Earl opposite that the grant was from year to year.
But surely the fact that the grant had been given, year after
year, and in every year for fifty years, was of greater impor-
tance in support of the grant than if it had been given at once
and for ever.—( Hear, hear.) It showed a greater determina-
tion on the part of the Legislature to continue the grant, under
the very name used in each successive Act, than if
it had been made at once a fixed and permanent endowment.
—( Hear, hear.) He placed little value upon the animosities
exhibited at public meetings. He believed that those annual
displays of fanaticism would be happily put an end to by the
Bill before the House.—( Hear, hear.) It was no argument
against this measure that it would go to promulgate the ob-
noxious doctrines taught at Maynooth ; for it was denied by no
opponent, of this Bill that Alayneoth, with all its doctrines,
must still be supported.—( Hear, hear.) Was it not better—
as it had well been said by the Noble Duke op-
posite—that if the Roman Catholics of Ireland must
be educated by priests, those priests themselves ought
to be educated as gentlemen.—( Hear, hear.) He would
read an extract from an English traveller, who said that on his
visit to .11Iaynooth he found the condition of the pupils one of
great deprivation. The union workhouses were palaces com-
pared to the College.— ( Hear, hear.) Nothing could exceed
the povery and squalidity of the establishment. ( The Noble
and Learned Lord read the extract at great length, depicting
the extreme poverty of the pupils, and the filthy state of their
accommodation.) It was absurd to say that doctrines were
taught in the College which rendered the controlling power
of the Crown nugatory.—( Hear, hear.) For in the Chan-
cellorship of Lord Plunkett, that Lord Chancellor did, as visitor,
institute inquiries into the conduct of the pupils; and they,
when examined upon oath, gave evidence which proved that
they had no indoctrimation opposed to the obil,:atien of an oath,
and the result of the inquiry was, that the abuses complained
of, and proved, were removed.—( Hear.) lie did not wish to
give any pain to Members of that House professing the Roman
Catholic faith, nor to persons professing that faith out of the
House; but he must declare that no opponent of the Bill was

more opposed than he was to the doctrines of the Church of
Rome, or more opposed to the power of aw hierarchy governed
by a head with a triple crown.—( Hear, hear.) He did
not like the hooks which were read in Maynooth College. He
did not say that books were not to be read because he, or their
Lordships, did not like them.—(A laugh.) He then went
through a catalogue of hooks of various doctors, amongst
whom he mentioned Thomas Aquinas, whose doctrines
he did not approve, but whose works, he thought, might well he
read with advantage. He differed from the Noble Lord oppo-
site in his views; for it was quite a mistake to suppose he could
be correct in those views. There was no doubt that the books
mentioned were in existence, and that they contained those
bad doctrines that had been mentioned. But this was totally
beside the question now before their Lordships, and if it were
not so, he would be ready to vote for the Committee. He had
heard a great deal about Maldonatus and heresy, and all that:
but some of thus-' arguments went to prove that these
bad doctrines were taught in Mat nooth. No doubt
the dogmas taught in Maynooth were the Ro-
manist dogmas ; but what other could be taught
there? Surely they were not. to invent new books—if so, then,
they were to have their own books ; hut even so, the fact
would be found that all those bad and dreadful doctrines would
shrink into a page or two.—( Hear, hear.) And now let him
remind their Lordships that the Church of Rome was not the
only church that had fallen into error. He much feared that
melancholy indeed was the condition of the ecclesiastical dis-
cipline of another church. He was not now alluding to the
spiritual or ecclesiastical power of that church. That church
to which he alluded had exercised a great secular power, not-
withstanding all that had been said about the Pope, and the
Councils, and the priests, though he should certainly say that
the former had never carried it so far as the latter.—
( Hear, hear.) In modern times that church had been
as much distinguished for its tolerance as its piety, and this
he had said of it fifteen years ago ; but he should peremptorily
deny, that it was always as tolerant as it was now ; and if he
took the trouble he could find writers amongst the old fathers,
who furnished as strong illustrations against the intolerance of
that Church, as any that had been adduced against the
Romish Church. These things were not confined to the
Episcopalian Church. The Dissenters and Wesleyan 11.-
tholists were the loudest and most incessant in their outcry
against it. Well might the bench of bishops say, that these
religionists had no right to look for an extension of
civil and religious liberty for themselves, since they
had been so violent in their opposition when con-
cessions were made to Roman Catholics. They were
the last, too, who should charge other religionists with holdng
persecuting doctrines, for, if he selected a writer who of all
others la .d down the doctrine of extirpation with more ela-
borateness—who even went so far as to say that the body of the
heretic should even be burnt—who taught not merely the right
but the duty of destroying the body to save the soul—he should
say that that man was John Calvin.—(Loud cheers.) Among
the various devices which that man resorted to for the purpose
of carrying into effect his diabolical doctrines was the practice
of letter-opening.—( Loud laughter.) The Noble Lord pro-
ceeded to state an instance of this man's cruelty in the case
of a Spanish physican. He got him to come to
Geneva, where, in consequence of his religious opinions,
he was denounced, condemned, and burnt to death forty-eight
hours after, without even the common forms of justice, and in
mockery of every feeling that actuates humanity. The Noble
Lord then went on to adduce another instance of the most
intolerant persecution on the part of the Presbyterians and
Calvinists, from an American author, Mr. Gerard Spottis-
woode, who described the sufferings of an individual whose
only crime was worshipping in the Common Prayer Book of
the Church of England. He would now leave this part of
the subject, and he would ask who would think the worse of
Glasgow, Edinburgh, Hackney, or any other college where
Dissenters were taught ?—who would ever think the worse of
them because there might be found among their dusty shelves
a copy of the works of the persecutor and murderer
of Geneva—the author of the most elaborate treatise on
persecution that the world has ever seen—without any
attempt even to efface the page, palliate its cruelties, or apply
en antidote to the poison which it administered. Who, he
would ask, would think of involving all the students and pro-
fessors of those colleges, and the system of instruction taught
there, in the doctrines which were promulgated by Calvin ?
It would be senseless and utterly monstrous to do so. Thomas
Aquinas never could be compared, for a moment, to that vio-
lent and restless exterminator. Let him say- one word of King
William, who ought to be revered in this country and Ireland,
not merely because he founded civil liberty, but because he '
save them from Popery. His name might be made a watch-
word by fanatics, hut it was not in that sense he used it, and be
heartily agreed with the Somersets and the Gudolphins of his
stay, that hail their Lordships then lived they would have passed
the penal code. Last of all, he was told that you cannot con-
scientiously give money for the propagation of error. In the
first place, the money would be given, whether or no. Secondly,
the money partly belonged to Catholics. Thirdly, Maynooth
was only one of a number of establishments recognised and en-
dowed by the State. In Canada the Roman Catholic
Church was established by this country. The Right
Reverend Prelate was wrong in stating that there was
any provision in the treaty of Paris for endowing
the Roman Catholic faith—nothing was guaranteed in
that treaty but toleration. Constant grants were made by
the Legislature for the sustainment of the Catholic establish-
ments in the colonies, and at Malta even the regular clergy
were paid by the State. In Malta the Roman Catholic Church
was of the most rigorous and exclusive character, and yet it
was supported by the Government, while no cry, voice, or
whisper, had been raised against it. Before sitting down he
would sly a word respecting the mode in which the grant had
been met. His Right Hon. Friend in the other House, at the
head of her Majesty's Government, had been reflected on for
the course he had pursued on the present measure. It was
said that one reason of introducing the measure was the great
alarm expressed respecting the relations of this country with
America. Another reason given was, that without some step
of this kind agitation could not be put down. He (Lord
Brougham) denied, as broadly and distinctly as his words
would enable him to do, that any such appre-
hension had influenced his Right Hon. Friend in bringing
forward that measure. His Right Hon. Friend might have
referred to the relation of this country with foreign countries,
and the difficulties connected with those relations, but he
(Lord Brougham) denied that any such plea had been advanced
as a reason for introducing the present measure, and for this
reason, that it was a pure anachronism. For it would be re-
collected that last year, before any difference with America was
dreamt of, his Right Hon. Friend, in answer to Mr. Wyse,
distinctly announced his plan with regard to Maynooth, and
also his views with respect to academical education. The al-
leging that the measure was introduced to still agitation, was
equally unfounded. He had been represented to say that agi-
tation could not be put down by force, and he (Lord Brougham)
said so too, for he held that it was impossible to put down agi-
tation by such means, until it broke out into violence or insur-
rection. But agitation in Ireland had verged upon that ex-
treme, and his eight Honourable Friend had used
force, when force became necessary, and that force
had been triumphantly successful.—( Cries of " Hear, hear.")
Agi-ation at all times was an evil, especially in thickly popu-
lated countries, and if the measure now introduced was calcu-
lated to quiet and improve that country, in this respect it was
entitled to their support. He was told that the Right Rev.
Prelate (the Bishop of Exeter) had made out a case against the
grant to Maynooth, and Bishop Higgins had been cited to that
effect. That Right Rev. Prelate had said, a few years ago,
in a manifesto respecting the repeal movement, that he owed
nothing to the aristocracy of Parliament but contempt, a few
years before, on the occasion of the repeal of the Penal Code.
How such a change had taken place in so short a period, he
could not conceive, or how unbounded respect could be con-
verted into unqualified scorn ; however, his scorn and his re-
spect he valued in the same degree. That Right Reverend
agitator had said—" Why should Ireland be thankful for
17,000/. a year, it was but three farthings a week !" Such
argumentation he (Lord Brougham) had never be-
fore heard.—( Hear, hear.) Why, if 300,000/. a year had
been accorded upon such a principle, the grant
miel,t be said to be only fiv'pence a head, or less than a half-
farthing a week.—( Laughter. ) Hut Dr. Higgins no more
represented the population of Ireland than Mr. Wilkes and Mr.
Alderman Sawbridge when issuing their mandates from the
London Tavern, and commencing " We, the people of Eng-
land," embodied or represented the population of this country.
—( Laughter.) He felt gratified, however, that the Govern-
ment, conscious of its own integrity, and regardless of the cla-
mour of party, had fearlessly maintained its course, believing,
as he did, that the popularity which followed a brave act was
much more honourable than that sought after by spurious pre-
tensions, and that if they persisted in those brave acts they
would deserve, as they would obtain, that enduring and invalu-
able applause.—( Cheers.)
Lord CL NNCA RTY, amidst great odusion, and conflict-
ing cries of " Adjourn," "Go on," "Question, question,"
moved the adjournment of the debate.
The Bishop of ST. DAVID'S was anxious though at that
late hour to address—(here the Rev. Prelate was interrupted

with reiterated cries of " Adjourn, adjourn," " Question,
question," in the midst of which—
Lord CL AN CA RTY protested against the irregular course
adopted by the Right Rev. Prelate. The question of adjourn-
ment had been raised, and he for one would persist in it.
The Bishop of St. DAVID'S—I wish to give your Lordships,
in as succinct and short an explanation as possible, the reasons

for my vote on the present occa.on.
Lord CLANCA RTY (rising amid great sensation, and loud
cries of " Order, order,")--I, my Lords, have moved the ad-
journment of this debate, because I consider it my duty to

address a few words before the discussion terminates. Six
addresses have been presented this night in favour of the Bill,
while only two Members have spoken in favour of the amend-
ment of the Noble Earl near me (Lord Roden), and I have

been anxiously waiting an opportunity to state my views upon
it. Hitherto I have been unable to address your Lordships, and
therefore it was that I secured for myself the tacit right of
commencing the discussion to-morrow, by moving the adjourn-
ment of the debate.—( Loud cries of " Go on.")
The Duke of WELLINGTON—My Lords, I think it will
be more consistent with the convenience of this House that
the debate be adjourned till to-morrow.
The greatest confusion here arose, Members not understand-
ing whether the Noble Duke intended this day, Wednesday
(it being now one o'clock), or Thursday. Cries of " To-
day," " To-morrow," " Thursday," proceeded from all parts
of the House, in the midst of which
The LORD CHANCELLOR contrived to make himself
heard, announcing that the House stood adjourned to Five
o'clock this day ( Wednesday).
Their Lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, .June 3.
The SPEAKER took the Chair shortly before Four o'clock.
The amendments on the Newcastle-upon-Tyne and North
Shields Railway Bill was read and agreed to.
The Glasgow Markets Bill was read a third time and passed.
On the proposition of Mr. GREENE, the following motion,
of which he had given notice, was agreed to :—" That in con-
sequence of the extraordinary pressure of private business
during the present session, the time for presenting reports from
Committees on private Bills be extended till Monday, the 16th
of June."

Mr. GODSON moved that it be an instruction to the Com-
mittee on the Manchester, Sheffield, and Midland Junction
Railway Bill to consider the petition of Earl Fitzwilliam and
others against the Sheffield and Lincolnshire Railway Bill.
Lord G. SOMERSET said that, providing the standing
orders had been complied with, he could see no objection to
the motion ; but he thought, at present, it ought to be post-
poned.
After some observations from the O'CONOR DON,
Mr. GODSON withdrew his motion.

On the proposition of Mr. MANGLES, the following motion
Ras agreed to :—'• That all the memorials,rpapers, and docu-
ments, presented to the Board of Trade, with reference to the
several lines of railway referred to the Select Committee now
sitting on the railways comprised in Group L be referred
to such Committee; and that the evidence taken before the
Committee on Railways, Group E (Northumberland lines),
and ordered by the House on Friday last to be printed, be
referred to the Committee on Group L."
11r. P. M. STEWART then moved that the amendments
upon the report on the Great North of England and Richmond
Railway Bill be received.—Agreed to.
On the motion for the consideration of the report of the
Leeds and West Riding Junction Railway Bill being put,
Mr. CHARLES WOOD said that he bad no objection to
the recommittal of the Bill, provided the parties were prepared
to carry out the proposition they had made to the Committee.
with respect to the modification of the tolls. If that was not
done he should then move the postponement of the third
reading.
Mr. P. Al. STEWART was sure the directors of the
company would fully carry out the spirit of the proposal
they had made to the Committee.