Star.
London, England, 1808-02-25 00:00:00

'.

iMerTml=!lm===lllP=mniMMltV:Nur
PARLIAMENTART rRoCELDINGs.

?At. tills

HOUSE OF LORDS, RrIiDNESDAY, IrSIiRLIARY S 4. •
Set Sicatris Rosette was this 4/ licaactl rd in
tike
Shelties e. Patrick, for the Reeritident,
tie woe Send fa Monday seat.
Tbe Peak Three MilhoinaUtnitlLaNtUldia
1111-Weetireialis tecondlisrie,
12tesj=ican Intercetielello4llir-e4 gemesiele*

.

I.totiSt 01i Obilltletitit
~ . ..
...
The Sepann)sayhtlicritlt, SValke •
pauses final the: ;ey Nan4c presented, puma% to
valet' .iiitiigigt. tbk istdelFak Wane repharn,•prayine ce-
*halo* eir the precede vir abe ilk PEtnisco, WNW,. and Coil'
deemed by the Court of JUlnalegite mate tears ago, fox !omen,-
belt/Midi. Orliiel to lie ii4tiel'akte.
A New Writ-ifes ettlestiffier titaelesoion et a Member ..for
Trsts.-m the eselS se the He& Mann Ststemsen, now Lovd
Instant Pillibils, itelltd %e the Muse e(Peetts.
A-Petitilik wet pretested from certain Pecishiesters of theßec.
tory of Steneaboterne, Northinninsianol, pray hig leave to bring in
a Militir sivielng the said Rectory into- several emdler tiring",
row intim elk of tbeGovernots of Grienwich Hosiital.--Re-
• fated to a Committee of the Members serving fee Vorthumber-
land. •
hit. MELLISH presented a Petition from the Tancen of the
Ci of Loudon and County of Middlesex, praying aBO to pre-
y the legacies et raw Shins and Hides in London and its vi
itty
c' . Referred to a Committee.
General GASCOYNE presented* Petition from the CompaN•
of Merchants trading to Africa, praying an aid of 18,0001.
ferret to to a Committee of the whole liouse.
Sir JOHN SINCLAIR gave notice of a motion ea to-morrow,
roc a Committee to enquire respecting the state of the Highways
and Puhlic Road . and the propriety of more generally adopting
biesaid-wheeled carthrs.
Mr.. vANsrt- MU' moved for an Account of the Quantity of
PerovilsoZßark imported by, anti expottcd frotn this country with-
the hut --three-emrs, distlnv•ishing the quantity retained for
home eensumption;•-end the quantity exported to Ireland.--
Ordered.
The SECRETARY it WAR presented some Returns, pur-
suant to order, respecting the Recruiting Service.—Ordered to lie
on the table, and to be printed.
DA, MISKISSON brought in a Dill for repealing and amend-
ing the Act of the 46th of the King relative to the collection, &c.
of the Emilie in Scotland; also a DUI for collecting the duty on
salt expected from Great Britain, and altering the bonds received
for that article.--Read a fast and ordered to be read a secondtime
this day.
The to} Millions Exchequer Wills Bill was read a third time
and passed.
LORD LAMS.
Lord CASTLEREAGH brought down a mes-
sage from the Km: to the fagging purport :
G. R.
His Majesty having taken into consideration the splendid
anievementall eminent services performed by the late General
Viscount Lord Lake, et Delhi and Laswarry, in India, and on
tits Continent el Europe, and kaviag bees pleased to confer upon
his eldest son, now viscount Labe, as a murk of his Royal favour,
a Pension of 20601.4 tear, with the reverden thereof to the two
sex heirs male of his body, to enable them to dipport the tide,
recommends it to his faidifel Commies to take such steps as they
may think it, tor the. purpose or gidog effect to his Majesty's
moat gracious intentions:
On the rrititioti.of Lord-CAI3TURVi.OIII, his
Majesty's Met-AtffatiliE • -..llt4l:7l4.itiliitalteli into con-
sideration on. F1047* liCßty . . - . . .
Lord CASTLEREAGH-gave notice of
.his in-
tention on thai dot tO: atot.re:-For lin: Mikes: to his
Majesty, that he may belsserlso34.lo.oo4 i 0 cause
a Monument to be ereeted.at tte e erpitiee, to
the Memory of the Tate LisitlViscount.Lake,„
socttibioitt. likeiAmiloirt
Mr. CALCRAFT obseernig , that :ruuktunk had.
been in circulation' for sortie &Lisk stated the
dune why Sit Ricliald Stsaihnis anti ptivinted, not
only.from effectually blockading the Rochefort squa-
dron, but froM punning hen i•Oheii•thef 'escaped
from Basque Roads, and that those innienirs went as
far as to Skj'; that a: priii4alcuse was his not being
provided with itch store; as would have enabled him
to keep his station 447 Hon. Gentleman was pro-
ceeding, When the
fying asat hiSualoisesidintsisi.eidelaid down in put-
ting a question wheiino motion who before the House.
—He resumed, and then, correcting himself, observed;
that he only sought for that information which, as a
Member, he had a right to seek.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
answered, that if the Honourable Gentleman was in
possession of any such information as the rumours he
mentioned purported to communicate, he had it in his
own power to submit it in any way that the regulations
of she House pointed out, and ground any enquiry
upon it he thought proper.
Mr. CALCRAFT then said again, ~ I ask the
Right Hon. Gentleman, whether that which I have
mentioned was not the cause of the Rochefort aqua.
drop escaping ?"
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER.—
"I am not aware of any such fact. But if the Ho-
nourable Gentleman is in possession of such informa-
tion, let him say so, and then he will have it in his
option to institute any proceeding upon it which he
may think fit."
"Mr. CALCRAFT then said, im I have such infor-
mation, and mean to call the attention of the House
• to it ; for which purpose I now give notice, that I
shall move to that effect on the first vacant day,
which will be next Thursday se'nnight."
visa INDIA TRADE.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER,
pursuant to his notice of Friday last, rose for the pur-
pose of Moving for a Select Committee to take into
consideration the anbarrasments complained of by the
West India merchants in this country,. owing to the
pretest state of their trade. The subject was one of
very great importance, which it was ettstnely..desir-
able to pmt into a course of full enquiry, us order that
, by placing the real situation of those snerchants in the
clearest view, the House might be better enabled to
judge what measures were eligible f9e,tbeir relief.l In
the conversations he had held lid* many gentlemen
in the West India trade, he understood they considered
that the most effectual mode of relieving thorn front
the pressure under which they have so long }abound,
would be the adoption of sitch.,ineasnres as would ia..
crew the consumption of augigen the home maika;
• and thereby enable them to pt rid of the accumu-
lated stock on hand. It- would be' or.elie CdMmittee
to inquire how such a purpose.couldtiesthe prornotegl,
and whether or not the confining of the home *di
lain, for a given time, to the use of sugar and ma.
lasses only, would not be an eligible measure? a
if so, whether
_it would be' adviseable to extend tht
expedient to the three parts of the United Kingdom;
or confine it to one part only ? For this purpose, he
moved that a Select Committee be appointed.--Or."
dtied, and nominated accordingly, and the Reports'
' of the ktrtiter West India Committee referred to diem.

• allie
~,if INDIA APPAISS.
wtr
were libeir
..SSON, in the absence The iGgbt Hon. Gentkraut
e Faked, the Presiarqt of '- colleagnes in ofseelladh
.coul, gave notice of a motion co • . respotisibilitav" ie.
Jr the appointment of a Committee on, the fart was, ativand
East India Affairs. - Orders of Cinmeil
DADESI OF COUNCIL DILL. , that the nsitairore
-11KR:NRY, pursuant to his notice of yester-
dayerote to bring forward his mods* fora Commit- had been adopted as; ast itt of necessity, from the
tee of Tmde an Navigation, for the "putpose of tak- proceedings of the enemy. and the circumstaace* of,
ingntto coast the subject of the late Orders in the y
' .."---- ' 'ileratin
county and of Europe; and that it was necessary
Cousealr ittahlishing many important the
in a Bill should pass,. in order to:give efficacy to the
the .extertial 'commereeof this country. Mr. Tierney reasure. He denied that Ministers bad 'hewn any
reverted td bis • .t of last night, and contended indifference to the petitions on the table. or
.the
that the bill now ore the House for carrying into situation of the petitioners ;on the contrary, his Rsght
effect those Orders, was a bill not merely for the pus Hon. Friend had distinctly, for himself and his col-
' of revenue, but enacting various commercial lentleSt deolered the situation (idle Petitioners, and
regulations ;that the bill, therefore, instead of origi- expressed his sorrow that it NMI not then in their
wer to do more towards their relief. The Right
naung as it. had done in a Comniittee of Ways and
Means, for mere purposes of supply, ought to have Hon. Gentleman was obliged to anticipate that these-
. *ginated in a Committee of the whole House for petitions were meditated and
.ready, antecedent to the
the purposes of trade and navigation ; or at least the. issuing of the Orders in Council. •He well knew that
objn.ts of the bill ought to have been divided, and was the case; and in fact, and in fair.argument, the
.
' that part only which related to revenue commenced Orders in Council were issued for the purpose of,
he said,
in the Committee of Ways and Means. If the Right 1 eramteratting the evils of privation, in which,
Honourable Gentleman would propose any oiler I they were running a race with the enemy ; and that
mode equally leading to the tame object, he would 1 the operation of them was intended to prevent the
chearfully relinquish his motion ; but, otherwise, he t avil; not by running the race of privation, but by
should feel it his duty, upon a measure which men of , tampelting the enemy to relinquish his unjust decrees.
the best 'information considered as ruinous to our 1.. e assured the House, and the Right I-lon. Gentle-
al:nmerce and consequently to our existence, to press man also, that he was not influenced by any degree
upon the house the necessity of a full and deliberate of false dignity that had been imputed to him, to ab-
.
enquory from those who were most competent to pve stain from the adoption of the measure he had then
inform2tion, the merchants of this country, instead of , proposed, but he opposed it because there had already
blindly atllopting a rainous system ; for if the 'cm- *Peen three discussions on the principle of the Bill.
mercial interests of the country were destroyed, the t There were three more stages on which he, and the
responsibility of Ministers would 'afford but a Iktrry : Gentlemen opposite, might still further discuss it, and
compensation. His Majesty's Ministers, after haring there could be no occasion for it except in point of
laid the Orders of Council upon the table, never nice form ; and in that he was clear there was nothing but
proposed any mode of consulting the sense of the whit might have been, with great propriety, touched
House, or of those pe:sons in the- country most tom. Li on in the Committee. of Ways and Means ; and he
certainly recommend to his Right Hon.
potent to judge as to their probable effects, or z to ; wauld.
their prudence or their p tilicy ;: but they ccmtetted i Fiend (Mr. Foster) to pursue a similar course with
themselves with presenting- a bill for carrying OW •respect to extending the same measure to Ireland, as
beemse • he was convinced they had been perfectly correct pn
orders into la* upon no other ground that
what had been done. There was one clause, he said,
they had advised tiis Majesty Na issue them ; gad in
whichi had been found not properly to belong to the
support of this bill, they had not ;fraught forward Cas
tittle of evidence to prove its necestelt. In all nna. Bid ;and in respect to that, it had been agreed, con.
tunes formerly adopted by that House
for any imp!, fonnahly to a suggestion of the Right Hon. Gentle.
rant regulation of trade, it had unifonasly been dine man himself, that an .instruction should be given to
by a Committee of the whole House. There nwer the Committee to divide the Bill into two Bills, if, on
was any occasion which demanded a deliltemte, eau. full consideration, they should think fit so to do; and
tious, and prudent proceeding, more than the preens: as there appeared to him to be no necessity-to adopt
the existence of sure commerce depended upo:a it,and the present motion, in point of form, he was sure
that once undermind, the country was gone.. He there was none in point of substance, which might not
could not conceive upon what principle the ilight ibe fully argued and discussed, in the future stages of
Honourable Gentleman seemed determined so stcutiT I the Bill ; and for these reasons he should negative the
to resist inquiry on this subject. Although the mei:), motion- ,
sure was adopted without any avowed adviser, yet 1 Dr. LAWRENCE said, that he was so far from
the Ministers must have been advised by.:Sorneboi, y g t not paying a due regard to forms, that he thought
and what he (Mr. Tierney) wished for was, that the t forms were frequently the very essence of the most
adviser, wl!oever he was, should be brought forward,limportant matters, and sure he was they were so in
and confronted before the Committee of Trade, with a very high degree in the proceedings of that House.
persons of known experience, competence, and pro- His Right Honourable Friend, 'and their side cf the
pity, who were ready to bear testimony to the ruin- House, wished for evidence : the Right Honourable
ous tendency of the measure. There were many men' Gentleman opposite and his colleagues went solely on
of the first-t haracter and profoundest commercial their own arguments, without condescending,to fa-
knowle3ge, both in and out of
_that House, who, your the House with any information or evidence on
though perhaps not very adroit in the composition of which they could form a fair opinion. All that they
kpeeches, were nevertheless competent to .give that could gather from the explanation that had hitherto
House the most important commercial informatim been given, was, that his Majesty wished the House
and valuable opinions upon the topic. He instanced' to pass a Bill to carry the measure adopted under the
a late production by a merchant (Mr. Baring) dis- Prerogative into legal effect, by fixing duties. When
"kinguished for information, experience, and ability.-- the Right Honourable Gentleman had beep asked
It was from such men he wished the House to have what would be the operation of the Bill, and what'
in opportunity of full inquiry. The Right Honour- the duties were likely to amount to in the way of re-I
able Gentleman seemed bent upon carrying his men- venue?? his answer was, he could not guess ; so that
. sure into law without any inquiry, as if he wished to the House were entirely in the dark on that part of
I "Do good by steal*, and lard to find it fame."' the subject. The Right Honourable Gentleman had
He assured the Right Honourable Gentleman, that also said, that one Committee Was as plod as another,
his resistance to the measure arose from no peevish and yet he had owne4, that there *as a clause in the
or narrow motive of party, or vexatious opposition ; Bill that ought not to be there, because it had origi-
but he feared the Right Honourable Gentleman was nated in a Comiiittee of Ways and Means. This
running into dangers of which he was not aware, and was a measure which would deeply affect the vital in-
for the fatal consequences of which he would find, too terests of the country, our trade and commerce; and
late, that it would not be in his power to make before every thing was put on the cast of a die, the
amends to his country. He, therefore, most earnestly House ought to seek fury information. Some allusions
deprecated all precipitancy in this measure, and im. had been made to the petitions upon the table with
plored him to agree to suspend the progress of his respect to peace. He was one of those who would
bill, until such time as the inquiry of a Committee of never recommend popular petitions on such subjects,
Trade and Navigation should have enabled him and because he thought they rather were likely to retard
the House to judge rightly of its true tendency and than forward so desirable an object ; but at the same
eeobable effects. He begged to call to his attention time, when the House were on a measure out of
the petition for peace, now on the table, presented, he which might arise another war, he thought it was
understood, from thirty thousand manufacturers, their duty to be cautious; and that they should take
complaining, but in respectful and decorous terms, every means to shew the people that the measure was
that they wanted bread. The necessary consequence calculated to frustrate the intentions of the enemy, by
of passing the bill, he feared, would be an increase of counteracting his measures ; and that could not be so
those thirty thousand to three hundred thousand in a well done as by the evidence of merchants, and those
very little time. He concluded by moving a Com. best acquainted with the trade and commerce of the
mittee of Trade and Navigation, to sit on Thursday country.
se'nnight, for the purpose of taking this subject into Mr. ADAM assured the House he would detain
consideration. them but a very short time. He could not agree with
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEER the Right Honourable Gentleman in his argument,
QU
said, that if he considered this question as an opposithin nor in the advice which he had given to the Chancel-
merely vexatious to himself, he would not trouble the lor of the Exchequer of Ireland ; for they had, iii his.
House at all about it; as it was, he was so confident opinion, commenced in error, and they ought to re-
of having proceeded on fair and just grounds, that it tract, instead of persisting. He said it had always
would not be necessary for him to trouble them with been the practice of the House, when any material
many observations at that time. He could not, how. alteration of the law was to take place, to resolve
ever, but think, that the opposition was vexatious to themselves into Grand Committees of Trade, Grand
the interests of the country much more than to him- Committees of Religion, Grand Committees of Jus. I
self, for it went expressly to delay a measirteavhich Lice, &c. and this was done for the hest purpose,in,
the circumstances of the country, and the situation of order that every such change should be adopted Only
• Europe required to be adopted as speedily as possible, an the fullest and most serious consideration. It was
and which had always received a decision after the a mistake, he said, that the standing order of 1703
most ample discussion on the subject. The Right was repealed by .the order of 1773, for it really was
'Hon. Gentleman, in the whole of his arguments this not ; and even by the last order, it was made neces-
slight, hid violently complained of want of inforrna- 1 sary, that any Bill relating to trade should always
Lion ; whila be, for his part, conceived that every de- originate in a Committee of the whole House, which
gree of information had been given that could at ail gave it one more stage, and that a very important
be considered necessary. , The Oilers of Council had one : for in that Committee they had the power of
been laikbefore the House for their information. going into every matter relating to it, as in 'respect
They had been fUlly discussed atto the necessity, the to extiediency, as to policy, or necessity, which dis-
policy, and the efficacy of them, and the House had I tinished a Committee on Trade from a Committee'
-decided.lo their favour ; and the next thing to be done I on-Face. He had looked for precedents, as well
was, to give them a practical effect, by adopting aI as the short time he could spare would allow, and
mode of carrying them into execution ; 'and this thought he had found one that was in poiros. In 1731,
was intended to be done by'the Bill then pending in 1 when there existed certain duties on yarn from Ire-
he House, and which gave rise to the present mo. I land, which were appropiated to different uses, it
aioa: ' It was open to every Member of the House, ! was thought wise to repeal those duties, and place
and of course to the Right Hon. Gentleman who had ; them solely on the aggregate fund, which was merely
'nit sat down, to enter fully on the subject in the a change of one fund for another. It was them agreed
Camtnittee of aid Means, and to examine evi. to panto a Committee of the whole House, in the
clewe on: any or all the points that might bear on the nature if a Committee of Trade, befer even that
trade, commerce, and navigation of the country, and measure was adopted. He put a case that the pre-

. •
... •
rotative so,oo be used to make any aiterAtioaka..
course of *for,. trsti:then that House was applital
I
foe the putpoee of ,legalizing such act of premise;
mid the Howe endure that such a measure should
adopted, without originating in a Commit
of Justice ? Would they endure V:l:tuch anon,'"
t chess le should commence in a Coausittee'
-.
C;121 and-Weans I Ike will sure shelf eroza eat"
and as the House had, by neglectingtopeigiame 4:
Bill alluded to, suffered it to originate in nCotutoit.
tee of Ways 'and Means, instead of a Coniaitteo of
the whole House in the way of a Conimittee af'rrato
he thought they ought to be then checked, tuna thi,'L
the best way
_would. be to retrace their steps.
Mr. ROSE thought the Honourable Gentleraaa
had made a mistake between the Graud Committee
arivasti nod the SO:adiv Order of 1773, as both
were ,a
were contemtion of matteroutune •
uo
marations.aadalterations Were intended to. be mad
in trade, ana,.iti that case it was requisite that the big
shoulduriemate in a Committee of the whole Rouser
,bat this was not so M the present case. Whateverthi,
lassovation.was it originated in the prerogative, w
had been used from the necessity of the ivautmnca
.of the Continent of Europe and of this country—ond
ii was therefore necessary the House should, by the
present Bill, carry the orders of Council into
cal effect, by fixing duties which were matters of
finance, and therefore properly..came under the
cognizance of the Committee of Ways and- Mesas._
He denied that the trade of the country was allettd
by the Bill. - • • •' •
. The question being loudly and clamorously mod
NY
for—Mr. PeNSON ,said' he was story to Iles,
Gentlemen so much wis'a- for the quest:on, as they
would certainty be disaypointed. The Right Honour.
able Gentleman Who spoke last had said there was no
alteration of trade by the Bill, but that the Rine bad
IdoOe it by his prerogative, arising out of his bap.
Ilrent rights. True.but his Majesty had referred di
act of the exercise of his prerogative to the considera-
tion of the House Of Commetot, and requested Mae
to adopt the legal wens of carrying it into practical
, effect. In ER cases' of exercise of the prerogative, the
douse of Coinmons had a right to enquire and coo
skier whether his Majesty had been well-advised is
that act. This no one could deny. What had been
• done on former • eccasions ? He had a precedent,
which he thought was very *.ialogous to the present
case. There was no part of the king's prerogative
which was more universally allowed; than that of his
right to enter into treaties with foreign powers. Ac-
cordingly his Majesty, in 1787, entered into atom.
mercial treaty with France ; and how did Feria.
matt then proceed-? His Majesty in his spettliin-
,formed the Horse:of-Commons, that he had conduct.
ed a treaty_of navigation and commerce with them*
Christian 'King, and' recommended it to them tomes
it into consideration. How did the House act? Dif
they proceed to bring in a bakte carry it into dm
by originating it in a Committee of Ways and Mean.
No—they made an order to consider that part of the
speech -which related to c immerce, in a Committee
of the whole Housz, in o:der to examine whether hit
Majesty had been well advised in the exercise of that
They deter nined, in a Committee of
the whole House, that he had exercised that prow-
tive properly, and afterwards addressed him to ikt
effect=--and then they went into a Committee of Ways
and Means, to consider how to carry the duties into
effect. His Right Honourable Friend said, Mathis
matter was a measure of great novelty, and ofet-
treme importance, and ought therefore to be coca-
dered with the greatest attention. He was of the same
opinion ; and as he thought the bill should have ori-
ginated in a Committee of the whole House, he would
support the present motion.
Mr. TIERNEY allowed there had been opportn-
nity for a discussion of the question, but none for a
decision of it, because. it had not been takeu.npaa
proper Committee. The Chancellor of the Lecke-
quer had once said, there had been opportunity
a decision ; but he had since very dexterously &n
ped that word, and afterwards only used that of fis
cussion. The Committee of Ways and Means sea
only proper in matters of Finance, except them wa
a particular instils. ties ; and that not having take
place in the present bill, the House had proceeded!
error ; and in a case of such magnitude and imps
tance to the country, could not do better than to r
trace its steps, and receive information on the subjes
The Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Rose) k
said, there was nothing in this Bill contrary is t
usual and ordinary course of trade ; this he dealt
In case a neutral ship was warned into a port lid
kingdom, that had cotton and Jesuit's bark on boo
she must leave those articles behind her—this wait
in the first Bill, but it was is the new edition of it
and. if this was not an alteration in' the course of te
he could not tell what was. It was an infringan
of the Navigation Act, and ought to have origin
in a Committee of the whole House, and not it
Committee of Ways and Means ; because when a o
mittce of Ways and Means was wanted, it was ale
expressed as such a Committee. He instanced 11
of the Lord Advocate of Scotland, a few Sess
past, having brought its a Bill for altering the col
tion of teindr (tythes) in Scotland, when the Spe
had expressly reminded hits, that being an alien
of the law of tythes, which belonged to the Chu
the Bill must originate in a Committee of the w
House. He appealed to the Speaker if that sra
the case. He thought, therefore, the House g
do well to pause there, and consider this subject I
maturely. If, however, the House decided ag
him, he would have the satisfaction to reflect,
he had done his duty, in putting them in the se
doing right by calling for information, and with
he must rest contented. The Right Hones
Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer)
said, that he. would advise his Right Home
Friend to originate his Bill for Ireland in tlet
way ; that was, a Committee of Ways and N
If he did, he should have an opportunity of in
his sincerity ; for he had asserted that he
Tierney) might have called for and examine evi
on the Committee of Ways and Means. lithe
cellor of the Exchequer for Ireland, should the
tread in the same steps in introducing his B
would try the sincerity of the Right Hon. C
man, by calling for the examination of witness
would be able to give more information to the
'Flllan they had yet received.
' The SPEAKER said, that as he had been
upon, he would certainly state to the House w
thought on the subject. The rules of the How

cl
. .. . _
, . .s acifinattertispecting-the
1 .. ; ; •i
s of,
-S O
Ills
slay -mischiefs or evil* so
' the
0411 .c.. neat on it. The Right I
Mon if*, bid staiji#4, that he and his etdleagi
in, the state eyr Adopted the measure 9n their own res
appealed to the House Whether the.
.
L. whether he had not suhmitted. the C
Lotice of Tester. to the House, and disactly state&
. __ A —.a a. ay. a..