The Sun.
London, England, 1845-07-01 00:00:00

STATE OF IRELAND.

On the order of the day for the House resolving itself
into Committee on the Colleges (Ireland) Bill,
Sir EDMUND HAYES said that, in pursuance of the
notice standing ou the paper, he had to ask a question of
the Right Honourable Gentleman the Secretary for
the Home Department as to the present disturbed
state of Ireland. He wished to know whether the
powers at present possessed by the Executive Government
were considered sufficient to put down the system of
outrage and murder which was carried on in that un-
fortunate country—a system carrying terror and dismay
into the hearts of the peaceable portion of the com-
munity.—(Cheers.) If the Government said that they
required other powers, he should like to know what
those powers were?
Mr. B. OSBORNE said that before that question was
answered, and to save after trouble, he should wish to
know what part of Ireland the Hon. Member referred to?
Sir E. HAYES said it was quite evident that he re-
ferred to those counties which were the scenes of those
disturbances.

Mr. B. OSBORNE—Name them.
Sir E. HAYES—Cavan and others.

Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that her Majesty's Go-
vernment had felt as much anxiety as the Hon. Member
couli possibly do, respecting what was going forward
in the counties of Wicklow, Cavan, and Fermanagh. He
could inform the lion. Member that every effort had
been made to repress the outrages and crimes
that unfortunately prevailed. They had recently
increased both the military and police forces in those
counties, and it was to be hoped this step had done some-
thing to arrest the progress of this deplorable state of
affairs. He quite agreed with his Hon. Friend that
neither polities or religion had anything to do with this
unfortunate state of things. He had been informed that
a meeting of both the laity and clergy of these counties,
without distinction of denomination, was about to take
place, at which measures would be devised:for co-operating
with the civil and miThary powers. He did not despair
but with this the existing powers would be quite suffi-
cient to secure the peace of those districts. At present,
however, he was not prepared to advise any other course.
ACADEMICAL EDUCATION (IRELAND) BILL.
The order of the day for going into Committee
was read.

Mr. J. O'CONNELL presented a great number of
petitions against this Bill ; the number of signatures
attached to them he stated to be 300,000.
Mr. ROSS said he wished to correct a statement that
had been made in a former debate, respecting the Pro-
fessor of Greek, in the College of Belfast, teach-
ing Arian doctrines. He was instructed to state
that the Reverend Mr. Bruce had never, on any
occasion whatever, taken advantage of his position
as professor to inculcate Arian doctrines. This
he (Mr. Ross) thought it was necessary to state in order
that Hon. Members might go into Committee with a
perfect understanding respecting this point.
Mr. S. O'BRIEN said that he had already stated his
belief that the Bill would be the subject of endless
revision if the House undertook fully to consider
it. He was convinced that if he endeavoured to
discuss it his labour would be unavailing, and he thought,
therefore, that he should best consult the convenience of
the House by stating thus early his objections to the
details of the Bill. Without expecting to modify the details
of the measure, he should have aneast, the satisfaction
of having performed his duty to the House and his coun-
try. He admitted the importance of education, and great
and pressing as was the physical suffering of the people,
he admitted that the education of.the present generation
might lead to a diminution of that suffering in those
that were to follow. He would, however, remind
the House of the measures which were recom-
mended by his Hen. and Learned Friend the
Member for Cork, and those recommended by the Com-
mission of Inquiry ; and he felt that they were destined
to pass another session without seeing any measure
introduced for the diminution of the suffering, the exist-
ence and the extent of which was acknowledged by all.
Ile would also remind the House, that several years ago
the Commissioners of Education in Ireland said that it
would require the annual sum of 200,0001. a year to pro-
vide education for the people of Ireland. He would
take this opportunity of saying that lie preferred a
mixed education, and objected altogether to the ex-
treme opinions held forth by the Archbishop of
Tuam on the one side, and the Archbishop of Armagh
on the other. Classical and mercantile education were,
he thought, sufficiently provided for in Ireland, but there
certainly was a deficiency of scientific instruction.
He did not object to the amount of the grant
proposed by the Government, which he thought liberal.
The friends of united education in Ireland opposed the
measure because it provided for the religious instruction
of neither ; and the friends of separate education opposed
it because all sects would be amalgamated without the
possibility of Christianising any. The Irish people were
essentially a religious people, and it therefore was in-
cumbent
on the guardians of the Roman Catholic popu-
lation of the country to approach the House with a
demand for the appointment of a Roman Catholic
chaplain. But the Bill, as at present framed,
provided for the religious instruction of neither
Protestant or Catholic ; and though it contemplated
and sanctioned voluntary endowment, such a contin-
gency was very uncertain ; and if it did not
oeeur, as he believed would be found to be the
case, no provision whatever would be made.
He thought the plan which had been suggested by the
Roman Catholic Prelates was one of the best which he
had heard, and he was persuaded that nothing but
the Anti-Catholic prejudices of that House prevented its
being adopted. The Noble Lord the Member for Hert-
ford had proposed another plan, namely, that fees should
be demanded from every student. That proposal also
had been rejected. The Catholic Bishops de-
manded for the Catholic students protection from
all interference with their religious tenets. He
thought they would admit that that body was fully
justified in the jealousy which they felt with respect to
this Act, as in the Executive Government there was not
a single Roman Catholic. They went on to say that
the Act allowed Roman Catholics to be eligible for
the chairs of geology, moral philosophy, and history,
as well as other professorships; and in some of these,
as in geology, he did not see that any point of differ-
ence could arise between Roman Catholics and Pro-
testants ; but still it was well that they should secure
the students from the contagion of infidelity. He ha
thus endeavoured to show that the remonstrance made
against the Bill by the Roman Catholic hierarchy of
Ireland was perfectly justifiable, and that it ought to
receive the consideration of Government. He did not
think that the Right lion. Gentleman the Secretary for
the Home Department could be considered the most
fitting judge of what was necessary for the education of
the Irish people. He could scarcely be thought the
most able person to decide on the merits of the persons of
either faith, who might be candidates for these professor •
ships. And yet the Right Hon. Gentleman reserved to
himself the power of making these appointments. The
next clause conferred an additional power, for it gave
the body of professors power to appoint teachers
in Galway, Cork, and other counties in connexion
with those Universities. But it was said that the Right
Hon. Baronet might, if he saw fit, reconsider this part of
the Act in 1848. Now, with respect to that, he thought
that the power of doing so existed in Parliament, and
therefore this reservation was perfectly unnecessary.
Ile should take that opportunity of saying that a measure
ought to be brought forward for opening the Queen's
College in Dublin to the Roman Catholics. Why should

rot the Roman Catholic merchants in Dublin have as
opportunity of having their sons educated at Trinity','
College, Dublin. The Roman Catholics were quite con-
tented that so much should be reserved for the Protestant
Clergy as was necessary ? Why not open twenty scho-
larships to the Roman Catholics in Trinity College, and
provide endowments which should be also open to them ?
He had taken this opportunity of offering a few sugges-
tions to the Government, because he was really anxious
that the Bill should succeed. His present impresaion.
was, that if this Bill was enacted in its present form f 0
would prove a nullity. They must remember that the
Bishops of Ireland were chosen by the people, and en-
joyed perfect confidence, and whatever they recommended!
was to be considered as an exposition of the opinions of
the Catholics of Ireland. He should have thought that they
had had sufficient experience in the Charter school, not
to mention otheranalogous cases, of attempting to govern
schools independent of that opinion. If they proceeded
on their present principle, they might as well withdraw
the Bill altogether. Lord Stanley had given them as
system of poor-law, which was carried against the
wishes of the Irish Members, and it ultimately proved a
failure. lie should like to see the Government doing
justice to Ireland by consulting the opinions and the
feelings of her people.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said he had hoped the Bill
would have been allowed to go into Committee without
any more discussion on its general principles. The
Hon. Member admitted the necessity for a measure of
this kind, and, therefore, he (Sir James Graham) con-
sidered the best course would have been for him to
allow the Bill to go into Committee, and when
there to consider what amendments were necessary
for the efficiency of the Bill. He was nt.;?; prepared to
say that he was opposed to ail the amens eats pro-
posed by the Hon. Member, though he would beZ to ob-
serve that the principles involved in them had been fully
discussed both by the Noble Lord the Member for Len-
don, another Noble Lord (Lord Mahon), and other
Members who had suggested alterations and amend
ments. The Hon. Gentleman accused the Government;
of corrupting the minds of the people of Ireland. But
he had such an opinion of the importance of diffusing
general intelligence that Le believed there could be no
greater means of preventing their corruption. The reli-
gious education of the students was not neglected. It
was provided for, first, under the care of the parents
themselves ; secondly, under the care of the persons
selected by the parents or guardians; and, thirdly,
by the heads of the Halls, who would be chosen by
the professors, subject to the approbation of the Cro'vert.
With respect to the representation of the Right Ref..
Prelates, since that was made several amendments had
been made in the Bill. The colleges were intended for
secular education, and that only. Religious instruction
was not to be given there. _ _

Mr. O'CONNELL said he would not retard the House
by expressing his sentiments, and thought it would be
useless to do so after the declaration of the Right Hon.
Baronet. He agreed with the Right Hon. Baronet in
thinking the House ought not to submit to the dictation
of any body of persons, however respectable, and how-
ever honourable. What signified the expenditure of
money,and the appointment of professors, if they did not
attend to the advice of the Right Rev. Prelates, the Bill
would not succeed. The Right Hon. Baronet said the
Bill had been much altered. Ile was in possession of
the opinion of those prelates, which showed that the
alterations made had created no change in their minds.
The Hon. and Learned Gentleman then read a letter
dated Maynooth College, June 26, from Archbishop
Miele, which set forth the unanimous opinion of the
Prelates as to the immoral and irreligious tendency of
the Bill remaining unaltered. Some of the prelates
were of opinion that they should petition Par-
liament, taking the memorial already published
as a model for such petition, but subse-
quently agreed not to du so, in consequence of
the disrepect with which the opinions of the Prelates
had beeu already treated in Parliament.—(Hear, hear.)
The Right Rev. Prelate further described the Bill as a
litinees and revolting act, and again meutioned that the
opinion of the Prelates expressed in the memorial re-
mained unaltered. The Bill (continued the llon. and
Learned Gentleman) was justly considered as a tempta-
tion to youth to neglect their duty, which they owed to
the first principles of religion. Some words in the
letter might be too strong, but it was, at all events,
characteristic of the strong feeling which the Bill had
created in Ireland. The object of its promoters was of
course success, and how could they expect success when
the opinions of two thirds of the people of Ireland were
in strong opposition to it. His object was to obtain re-
ligious as well as secular instruction for the people.
This the Bill had not done, and therefore he objected to
it. They had positively done nothing by these alterations.
They hael to be sure, given permission to enact a Bill for
religious purposes, but this provision was only
negative, for, according to the decision of Lord Chan-
cellor Sugden, that power existed already. The law
was quite settled on that point. There was no
longer any doubt but Catholics might endow schools and
convents, as the Right Hon. Baronet had said. This
measure propagated darkness; common charity would
be promoted best by giving each sect instruction in their
own religion ; let them give one hall for theology to the
Roman Catholic, another to the Protestant, and another
to the Presbyterian, but as now arranged they left all in
original darkness, and defeated their own intentions.
the Protestants comprised the wealthiest in Ireland,
and the present measure virtually allowed wealth to
triumph over religious poverty by leaving endowment
to voluntary bounty. lie should take one division on
an early clause, not from any hope of success, but be-
cause he felt that lie should have done his duty to his
conscience and his country. He pretested against the
measure, because he regarded it as totally irreligious,
and giving a one-handed permission to darkness and
i religion.
Lord J. RUSSELL considered the observations of
the Learned Member for the county of Cork of the
greatest importance, accompanied as they were by the
opinions of the Roman Catholic prelates. He could not
go the length of designaiing the measure a penal. enact-
ment, but thought some weight should be attached to
the observation of it being dangerous to faith and
morals, and certainly if passed in opposition to the wish
of the hierarchy of Ireland, it would not at least be
useful. He should not oppose its going into Com-
mittee ; in that stage it might possibly be amended, bast
if it came out of Committee with the stigma unremoverl,
he thought the Bill ought not to be sent over to Ireland.
One otht r provision he considered very objectionable—he
meant that of the appointment of professors ; but as
amendments on that subject would be subsequently pro-
posed, lie should reserve any further remarks till that
psi id.
The House then went into Committee on the Bill.
On the first clause being read, proposing that 100,0001.
be appropriated for the erection of three colleges, appos•
tioned in sums of 33,3331. 6s. Bd. respec, ively,
Lord J. RUSSELL rose to move an amendment. He
moved that in line 17 of the clause, the words be inserted
"including the building of the halls hereinafter men-
tioned," and that they leave out the words "not exceed-
ing 33,333/. 6s. 841. for each such college."
Sir J. GRAHAM opposed tbeamendment as decidedly
at variance with the principle of the Bill. It would be
introducing the princip!e of religious education as a part
of the scheme if they allowed this provision to be intro-
duced into the Bill. He therefore decidedly objected to
what the Noble Lord proposed. He considered that the
100,000/. would be little enough for the other purposes
of the Bill, without apple ing any of it as the Noble Lord
desired. If it was the opinion of the House adiscretionary
power might be invested in the trustees, but the amend-
ment was at variance with the principle of the Bill.
Mr. WYSE said that he differed from the Right Hon.
Baronet as to the principle o: the Bill. There was no
necessity for considering the halls and the colleges as
bound on the same principle, for they were indeed
essentially different. If it was objected that no grant
could be made for religious instruction in the halls, yet
that objection was overruled in the colleges. If the
governing body of the colleges were not worthy of the
confidence of the Catholic community, then indeed
the objection might be made, but if it were, though he
should object to the supremacy of one governing body
over the proceedings of another as being incompatible
with that supremacy which ought to be held in each,
yet, under the circumstances, he did not see that the
amendment was opposed to the principle of the Bill, and
it was entitled to his support.
Mr. Sergeant MURPHY thought that any aid con-
tributed out of the public purse would be contingent on
any contributions of the nighbourhood.
Sir R. PEEL said that the Government had made a
much more liberal provision, far they had proposed that
100,0001. should be appropriated to the erection ofcolleges,
halls, and other edifices, but without the appropriation
of any portion for the residences of the professors. Yet
they would not refuse any aid for the secular instruction
of the youth sent to these colleges, and it would be 1112.
ieasonable to refuse the same aid for the religious
instruction of the pupils. They were ready to receive
these contributions for the endowment of these halls,
and they were quite ready to allow the use of the pulpits in
those halls to the clergy of the Catholic body.—(Hear,
hear.) The object was not to conciliate the Catholic
body, but to adjust the respective claims of the several
parties. Was it not then reasonable to say the Roman
Catholics, the Presbyterians, and the Independents
should provide for their own religious instruction? They
were willing to provide for the best secular instruction
of those bodies, and he thought that it would.bo unreason-
able to provide for the religious instruction of theßoman
Catholic pupils, and he thought, therefore, that any ad-
judication of money out of the public purse would be
contrary to the principle of the Bill.
Mr. VERNON SMITH—The object of this amend-
ment was not to test the validity of the grant, but to
elicit the feelings of the people. He contended that it
was a bad principle to leave the moral supervision to
voluntary contributions. He quite agreed with his Hon.
Friend (Lord J. Russell) that the professional system
was quite unfitted for Ireland. Now, what had the Hon.
Gentleman told them the other night, why, that these
colleges were intended for the benefit of the middle
classes. The studies for active life of that class began at
17 or 18 years of age, and at that time it was in which
religious instruction was most especially needed, and yet
the Right Hon. Baronet proposed to leave this religious
instruction to the voluntary feelings of the people. He
thought the effect of such arrangement was not likely
to prove very satisfactory His Noble Friend wished to
establish with more certainty those halls which seemed
likely to provide for the education of the Roman Catholic
pupils.
Mr. SHAW said that this question of the halls na-
turally led to the endowment of the Roman Catholic
Church in general, and as he knew that if they endowed
one professor they must endow others, this proposition
was clearly in opposition to the Bill. He thought,
therefore, that the Noble Lord ought to be able to ex-
' plain the grounds on which he thought this endowment
should be made.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that, as was shown by
the observations of the Hon. Member for Waterford, it
was the proposal of the Government not to give re-
ligious education, but only a secularieducation for the
people of Ireland. Now, as the clause now stood, it was