The Sun.
London, England, 1842-04-29 00:00:00

Tease in

it'- was owing to the infernal system of papers—(Oh,
s6ll)—it was the infernal system of Judge. made
law that enforced the nece,sity of so many Judges. What was
the result of the system in the House of Lords? There were
400 appeals to tie House of Lords, from England. Ireland,
d.Scotland —( Hear, hear.) Let the Gentleman who cheered
guess what was the share Scotland had of these appeals ?
I'liey had 600 appeals out of 800.—( Hear, hear.) This was
(Nt. •of a population of two millions and a half, and thus a
"tell-informed station wrs made to appear a litigious one, from
!103 confounded system. He had done his duty in
~.,utinging the question forward, and he would defy any
N:otehman, with the exception of members of the legal
Peafession, to say that he had not justly stated
the cae. Before he sat down he might rotor to the opinion
(3!. the Honourabhs Member for Glasgow, on the last ores-
`ma the question was brought forward; the substance of it
Wl5 .this ; he said he was no lawyer, he •represented a large
mixed largely with the inhabitants, and he stated that
there was a great feeling of disguA and dissatisfaction with the
Superior Courts. Gentlemen who knew the Ifon.Member must
feel that it must be an urgent case that made him speak titus
°4 such a point as this. He was satisfied that he had shown
ti -good case for being allowed to bring in a Bill.
If he was not allowed, he begged to state that
"e,r'was called on to do this by the late Govern-
ment; on the last occasion lie brought it forward, the
Was asked why he did not not ask for leave to bring in a Bill,
and the Hon. Gentlemen opposite cheered the suggestion. The
Bill wou'd be a very short ono, and lie could not believe that
the Right lion. Baronet would refuse his anent to the bringing
it the Bill, by which alone the grievances could be remedied.
The Hon. Member concluded by moving for leave to bring in
the Bill,

An HON. MF.MBER here called out, " Sit down."
Mr. WALLACE rose with some warmth, and sail that lie
iwould not allow any man to tell him to sit down. Ile should
like to see the man who would take off his hat and say that to
hint —( Hear, hear.)
Sir JAMES GRAHAM could assure the Hon. Gentleman
that he had no reason to complain of a want of courtesy on his
Part, because, on a former occasion, he had, at his (Sir James
Graham's) request, postponed his motion on account of the
absence of the Lord Advocate. In the continued absence of
that Learned Lord, it was his ( Sir James Graham's) misfortune
to have to encounter the present motion, without his able
assistance; and such being the case, he:should have hesitated on
determining as to the expediency of not renewing his request,
had he not felt certain that in resisting the motion he might
Hy upon the support of almost the whole House.—(Hear.)
Hear. )
Hey
Sir James Graham's) opinion Oct the subject had been
41Pported by the labours of a Committee selected most
impartially from both sides of the House, and when he con-
sidered the names of same of the Members who sat on that
Committee, he could not cenceive a tribunal more likely to
arrive at a sound conclusion, or one more entitled to the C4U•
I,ideration of the House. In that Committee many divisions
had taken place, and upon every occasion the lion. Member
divided alone ; the subject had therefore undergone meet dis-
etission. The Hon. Member had not stated to the House
great changes ha taken place in the judicature of Scot-
land. The Exchequerd and Admiralty jurisdiction had been
abolished, together with many others, and the duties of the
judges of those Courts were now transferred to the
diminished number of Judges. Now what had been
laid by the late Lord Advocate on this subject?
Re stated before the Committee that after so many extensive
changes, that which was really necessary to Scotland was some
.pause in those changes. Lord Chief Justice Clerk had given
a similar opinion. The Hon. Gentleman had spoken contemp-
tuously of the manner in which the criminal justice of the
country was carried on, and the manner in which the Judges
conducted the Circuits. Now, for his own part he must say
that he thought the manner in which the business was con-
ducted, amounted almost to perfection. In discharge of his
official duty, he (Sir J. Graham) had constant communication
with the Judges in Scotland, and he would undertake to say a
More proper discharge of official duty, could not be found
any part of the United Kingdom. The Honourable
mentlemen had stated that the Courts of Law in Scotland were
regarded by the people almost with disgust. The Hon. Gentle-
man's motion was confined to obtaining leave to bring in a Bill
to diminish the number of Judges. The Hon. Gentleman
toooded, his motion on three anonymous letters. Now, he (Sir
`'.'Graham) would rebut those three letters by reading the
evidence of three witnesses that were examined before the
`-tosurnittee. The first was the late Lord Advocate. the second
was the present Lord Justice Clerk, and the third the present
solicitor-General for Scotland. The Hon. Gentleman had
• t,ead pretty largely from the Report of the Committee, but
tatere was one passage that bore en the motion
*hid' the Honourable Member had studiously avoided
leading. That passage was concurred in by all the
4,lenthers of the Committee except the Honourable
°etnber, and it was to the effect that the business of the
ICourts could not be carried on by one division alone. With
respect to the dmibts entertained by the Noble Lord opposite
(Lord John Russell) as to an increase in the salaries of
,etatch Judges, he ( Sir James Graham) certainly
64red in those doubts • but he &tiered, and con-
:Lotted to differ, with the Noble Lord relative to the
7 ,lultber of those Judges. He (Sir J. Graham) was satisfied
that the business of the Court of Session could not be con-
'ueted satisfactorily to the people of Scotland if the Judges
Rare diminished. In the practice of the Court, written evi-
%ice was done away with, and oral evidence had begun to be
rti4ierally. resorted to, and every requisite reform was being
ught into operation.
Mr. RUTHERFORD, who was inaudible throughout the
6reater portion of the observations he addressed to the House,
as understood to say that he was greatly surprised to find any
dissatisfaction expressed with respect to the administration of
etirninal law in Scotland. The conduct of the. Hon. Gentle-
kat (Mr. Wallace) was a specimen of the nature of the oppo-
,sition got up against the Scotch Courts. The Hon. Member
had no means of informing himself personally respecting those
Courts
, but he gathered a series of what he considered facts
from persons on whom he thought he could rely, and then on
kleh information he came forward in that House, and in lan-
guage the most reprehensible censured the proceedirgs of the
supreme Court of Scotland. He hoped there would he a
Pause to further change. Though lie quite agreed that the
Court of Session had many faults, he thought that its business
aa conducted in a much better manner than it had been ;
though still low, it was rising in pub is estimation. With
these views, he could not support the motion of the lion.
41eMher.
Mr. WALLACE rose to reply. There were thirteen Judges
tq the Supreme Court, and not more than twenty
well-
!mployed counsel. That fact stood uncontradicted. It required
the algebra to show that that was not a proper state of things.
f(Loud laughter.) Now, with respect to the
:en
appointed to investigate this subject, thir.
1;1 witnesses had been examined. Six of these
priesses were looking out for Judgeships. Two of them had
)7en made Judges. Three of them were expecting to be made
i4,arristers. Now that was the farce which had been acted in
Lie Committee. How did they get rid of the East India mo-
r, Poly, and the West India monopoly, and all other monopo-
fi:1? Were the in those cases uided b the testimon of
use.vvho were interested in the mognopoly?y Nothing could he
more absurd, unsatisfactory, or disgusting in the opinion of the
Settle of Scotland, than the administration of justice in the
fa,uPreme Courts in Scotland. Nothing could be more satisfac-
,to them than the administration of justice in the County
flutists. In the one case it was placed on a firm footing, in
other on an exceedingly bad one. The Judaea
1„° not sit in the Supreme Courts more than
01' months and a half in the year. He was perfectly ti.atis-
pe: that, with the exception of those parties who were inte-
,, ted in the present system, he would receive the approba-
eo.. ,
if ° of his countrymen for bringing forward the motion in the
thtiung terms which he had done. He did not complain of
administration of justice in the Criminal Courts, but its
linistration in the Supren-e Court was a positive farce. In
41hurgh there were three Jusiges sitting at one time. So ,
had..they to do that to spread out the business as much
tnere were often two or three Judges sitting at one
b'e over a twopenny-halfpenny case. There was nothing to
Ilevent the Sheriffs from performing the whole of the duty.
*h believed that the opposition to a change arose from those
41(.1' Were interested in the resent state of things, and in this
,Lef he would divide the Hopuse upon his motion.
pt4tredhe_gallery was then cleared for a division, when there ap-

For the motion
Against it ....
Majority against the motion .......
POST-OFFICE.
tiltjr. WALLACE was again on his legs, on our re-admission
th rie gallery. The Hon. Gentleman said—Notwithstanding
tile adverse opinion which has been pronounced by the House
ti, the motion I have just now made, I beg to move for a return
A,lqit I call plunder by the Post-office. The question is,
pt"ether the return which shows all the monies, whether hills
the.zabange, or notes, or gold, or trinkets, or other articles,
lel°n have been lost through the Post-office shall be printed
the Votes, and those who wish to see the return printed
)4. Vote with me. lam now speaking of the return of 1837,
110,4,41 contains 22 pages filled with those abstractions of money,
1,",4 notes, bills, &c. The return in 1838 contains 25 pages ;
t, '839, it contains a still greater number ; and in 1840, it
1p wins 273 pages ; so that it appears this trade is increasing,
those who wish to encourage this trade will vote not to
NI, these documents printed. The returns that are known
tptibit abstractions to the amount of 600,0001 or 700,000/.,
k,„ What is the amount of the new returns I do not
htfn.• The return is in three different parts, and the
tl;(t Committee for Printing have ordered that two parts
1d be printed, and that the third, which contains the items,
pft'llid not. I suppose this has been caused by reasons
liteeohoray on the part of the Committee. But if I
ui been informed that the Printing Committee would
44 print the items I would not have taken
likatee of the matter. But in point of fact the return
originally moved for by Major Chetwynd, who took the
tp.e course in 1837 which I have done. On looking over three
Iltilszlqtr pages of the return which is now to be printed, I find in
wed Page that coins, bills of exchange, bank notes, money
I era, Cheqnes, drafts, chains, and patterns of silks, satins, and
llitlens have been abstracted, and I think a great cause of all
is owing to the Post-office authorities not registering let-
t,• I see two Honourable Members present who
lte connected with the Post-office under the late Go-
V:raent, and who recommended improvements on the subject.
,„te is a great difference, Sir, in these returns between the
q*"effice and the Treasury, and I believe that the whole body
.I),."'e people will thank the House for agreeing to my returns.
lh4„ :People never know what may become of the money which
ly transmit by post; for I believe that the letter sorters, and
It letter carriers, and others in the Post-office, have got
10 (LlPert in abstracting money out f letters, that there is
qtfety whatever in the transmission of mon through
k_Post-office, either by letter, or by orders.- (Hear. )
lt"..dieve that it is well worth the while of this House,
quire into the subject, and the expense of the returns
,d be as nothing compared with the security which the
VP would feel if they knew that the Post-office was properly
acted.—( Hear, hear.) There has been already enor-
-110 expsnse incurred in the returns. As to the motion
','ll I have on the paper, I am perfectly indifferent
i° hoes the House may deal with it. The Honour-
iiiAlernber then concluded by meving—" That the return,
wrte"mg the applications which have been made to the Post-
>( for letters which were missing, and which contained
two;}' or money's worth, which return was presented to
tokouse on March 4, be printed ; or failing in this, that a
)n filets abstract thereof be made and printed along
kik, the return, which was moved for in connection with the
Ilkje, and which was made to this House on the 18th of May,
Allaabeen ordered to be printed."
. HUME seconded the motion.
`P. GEORGE CLERK opposed the motion, and said that
tti4Petitions move fr would not be wot t the expenfurni Ise. t
tk,L,. Ibean nu necessary waste of the public money to h
tlp7'returns when there were already documents before the
.`
lat". and accessible to the public, which contained all the in-
lation that could be afforded.
r' V. SMITH thought the motion of the Hon. Gentle-
-1,4 tnneh too extensive. It went much further than the re-
af the 4th of March. It also exee ded the terms of the
ttit t the Hon. Gentleman made at a former time, which was
N 4411 account of the number of letters, front the sth of
Ss, try, 1837, to the sth of January, 1841, franked or
applied or not applied for, containing money
- Or other property known to have been secreted
:ghat
servants of the Post-office; but to the terms
:vat the Honourable Baronet now added the words
oitt Illoney's worth." But then, by going into the " ap-
ttZtt*s" for letters, the I-lon. Gentleman would throw a
440 of undeserved io putation on the servants of the Post-
Now, when persons applied for letters, and not getting
t ti 1 e dth t they had been 10-t in the Post-office the ge_ a
445 that many of the letters were lost between the writing

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