The Sun.
London, England, 1845-03-14 00:00:00

T,. 1, LONDON, PR,IDAY EVENING,

hati-but rarely been surpassed. . But at the-same time,
he thought the Hon.-Gentleman had lessened' the im-
portance of his cause by the multiplicity of arguments
and facts which he edduced in support of it. The lion.
Member it would seem had forgotten that some of his
facts were contradictory.—(Hear, herr.) The Hon.
Member had stated that the labour of Committees who
who had sat upon this suh;ect, had al ways led to im-
proving the condition cf the agriculturist, and the culti-
vation and quality of the land. Now, he must say, that
he differed very much from the llon. Member—for at
various periods Committees had been appointed to in-
quire into the operation of agricultural protection, hut
he did not remember that 'any of these Committees had
produced any material change in the system. The
Committee which sat in 1815 and 1822, he admitted,
came to certain conclusions, which they reported to the
House ; but these reports could hardly be understood by
persons living in the present day.(Opposition aheers.)
Subsequent Committees that were appointed found great
difficulty in arriving at any conclusion upon the subject,
and, therefore, they declined to make any report to the
House, and they laid before the House nothing but two
large folio volumes, full of contradictory opinions and
facts.—(Hear; hear.) A Committee sat in 1833, and
that Committee numbered some of the most eminent
man in that House. On that Committee, he be-
lieved, were the Noble Lord the Member for the
City of London, and his Right Hon. Friend the princi-
pal Secretary of State for the Home Department. That
Committee came to a different conclusion to that which
the Hon. Member for Stockport had arrived at. In the
first place, they came to the conclusion that protection
was necessary, and that notwithstanding agriculturists
had to contend with great difficulties, and no matter
Whether it was in the time of pollee or war, great im-
provernents had taken place in the cultivation of land.—
(Hear, hear.) lie visited Ireland last year, and there he
was told, and saw with his own eyes, that the state
of agriculture was improving, and in this country he
knew from personal inquiries that the profits 'of .the.
farmer were daily on the increase. The Hon. Member
had said there could be no improeement in the cultiva-
tion of land, because capital was withdrawn from it.
Now, how could the farmer have improved his land so
as to increase his profits without cepital.—(Hear, hear.)
The Hon. Member said landlords kept their tenants in
a etate of subserviency, and they were restricted from
making the most of their farms by certain clauses which
were invariably introduced into farm leases. But the Hon.
Member forgot that those were penal clauses, and, only
applied to certain counties.—(Hear, hear.) He would
venture, however, to say that these leases did not bear a
recent date, because the Hense must be aware that
-lately improvements had been introduced into the term '
arid language of farm leases.—(Hear, hear.) In itulen-
tores of apprenticeship, to this day, they would find
early, absurd: and obsolete conditions ; but the Hon.
Member must bear in mind that it was the spirit of the
instrument that was acted upon, and not the letter. He
entreated Hon. Members on his own side of the House
not to suffer their sympathy for the prevailing agricul-
tural distress to induce them to concede the motion, for
it was quite impossible that it could be attended with any
beneficial result. What would be the utility of the in-
quiry ? Had they not already sufficient information ea
the subject? Surely, after the many discussions they had
had upon the corn-laws, and after the often-repeated
opinions of eminent political economists on agricul-
ture and commerce, they had sufficient information to
enable them to form an opinion, or even to legislate.
upon the subject if it were necessary. But even
were. they to geant tho Committee, he did not
think it would appease the public mind, or put an end to
the Anti Corn-le v agitation. No, nor would the Hon.
Member for Stockport, consent to suspend his judg-
ment on the corn laws and direct agricultural pro-
tection till they were put in possession of the deci-
sion of this Committee. Nor would Covent-garden be
restored to the muses, or those gentlemen- who there
enact tenant-farmers return to their. former occupations.
—(Hoir, hear and a laugh.) • Granting the Committee
would not either put an end to discussing the question
in that House. for he saw that the Hon. Gentleman the
Member for Wolverhampton had given notice of his
motion for a repeal of the corn-laws.—(Hear, hear.)
.He
WAS not aware-that the appointment of a Committee
would have the effect of inducing him to withdraw
his notice. _

Mr. C. P. VILLTERS—I have not given it yet.
Mr. S. HERBERT continued—At all events, he did
not think if the motion were carried it would put an end
to all discUssion on the subject in that House. But Hon.
Members opposite admitted that they had no very great
respeetior the decisions of Committees, and where then
was the use of appointing one?—(Hear, hear.) It
would not have the effect either of alleviating the clis
tres4; for the appointment of the Committee would have
a most ruinous effect upon the landed interest of the
country.—(Hear, hear.) All would be doubt and un-
certainty, and until the report of the Committee were
known, capital would be entirely diverted from agriculs
tura. Until the Committee had examined witnesses from
different parts of the country—until they had taken the
opinion of eminent political eoonomists, and until all the-
doctrines of wages, vocations, and profits had been in-
quired into, the agricultural interest, indeed the whole of
the country,would be in a state of uncertainty. The effect
of this uncertainty, there could be no doubt, would be
disastrous to the agricultural community, and indirectly,
if not directly, tend to injure the trade of the country.---
(Hear, hear.) Now, the Hen. Gentleman hal made
some observations upon the improvements which had
been made in agriculture. .The • Hon-Member at the
same time drew a comparison between the improvements
made in agrichlture, and the improVements which had
been intreduced into manufactures, which certainly,
was very , flattering to the lion. Member himself.
Bat the Hon. Member hal forgotten that manufacturers
hid a considerable advantage over agriculturists. The'
agricilthriii could only turn his
.capital once a 'year;
but the manufacturer could do it frequently.--(Hear,
hear.) A farmer sometimes had a good harvest and
sometimes a bad one. His profits, too, were often re-
duced in a bad harvest by. the prospect of a future good
one, but the manufacturer seldom or never laboured
under di-advantages of this nature.—(Hear, hear.) He
hoped the Hon. Member for Northamptoa would with-
draw his amendment. Past Committees upon agricul-
tural distress had produced no beneficial change, and he
did .not think any further inquiry would be attended
With a dill-rent result.—(hear.) It had on more than one
occasion been stated that-her Majesty's present Ministry
took office pleeleed to maintain agricultural protection.
The-Government had not, as bad been stated to-night,
made promises which they did not intend to keep. The
Hon. Gentleman had_- said the county Members had
been returned, on the pledge that they would maintain
protection, as it was previous to the last election. For
his own part he had stated his views, of the corn-laws to
his constituents, and had not concealed that the
Honourable Baronet at the same time would preserve
to the agricultural interest the protection of the corn-
law, but would make such modifications of the sliding-
scale as the altered circumstances of the 'country from
war to peace rendered •necessary.----(Hear, hear.) fie
believed 'that there was a great- deal of distress,which ,
was not 'within the reach of legislative remedy. But he
thought that nothing could more tend to alarm and dis-
hearten the farmers than that the House should
show them it - was dissatisfied with the present
arrangement, and that, at. the instance of a Gentleman:
who was no friend to them—(Rear, hear)—and who
desired twdeprivethem of all protection.-L-(Hear, hear.)
It was going into an inquiry of indefinite length, from
which, after some period, a measure of some sort would
ari,e, for the purpose of putting an end to the protection
which now remained.—(hear,- hear.) - The Govern-
ment-did not deny that there was-some-amount of pro-
tection which it was not intended to withdraw.—(Hear.
hear.) At the same time he and the Ministers admitted
that it was a fair and legitimate subject ,of discussion in
that House. The Hon. Member for Wolverhampton
(Mr. Villiers) had given notice of a motion on the sub-
ject, on which the whole question would be raised, before
they could have any report of the propozed Committee,
if it' should be granted. But if they were not in pos:
session of-the information for which the Committee was.
demanded by the Hon. Member for -StockpOrt, they..
were not, in a condition to • go into'. the discus-
sion of Mr. Villiers's motion:, If they.:: Were in.
a state to go into it, then there was no necessitt to send
-to a Committee up stairs fur information which they al-
ready possessed.e.-(Efear, hear.) If they told him how
the Committee would be constituted, so well known was
the state of opinion on the question, he could tell them
what, would be, the result.—(Rear, and a laugh.) He
thotight, hoWever; that the House was 'bound not to
accede to the motion, unless it 'was proposed to alter the
present law.—(Rear, hear.) It could not be pretended
that any information was required,'and the Hon. Gen-
tleman only wanted the Committee for the purpose of
expounding his own views, which he was in the habit of
doing with great clearness and ability, and at sufficient
length in the House. The Committee would ,t most
only create hopes as to the repeal of the import duties,
which could not be realised, and increase the dissatis-
faction and uneasiness which it was the desire of Par-
, [lament to allay.—(Hear.) He hoped • his Hon. Friend
the Member for East Norfolk would withdraw his amend-
ment, and that the House would negative the Motion. •
• Lord HOWICK, who was at first very imperfectly
heard, said that the Right Hon. Gentleman who_last sat
down had commenced by stating that Committees upon
agricultural distress were of no use.. That was a mere
doctrine with Gentlemen opposite.(Ree.r, hear.) He
remembered when the Governments of.which they were
members held Committees on agricultural distress in
great estimatinn.—(Cheers.) .Besides that, he denied
that Committees of inquiry were of no use.—(Hear.)
The facti which were brought out Were of importance.
The new views in which they' placed acknowledged facts
wo.re also of , importance. • He reminded Right Hon.
Gentlemen opposite, that the first step which was made
in amelioratinir the• system of protection grew out of a
Committee of inquiry into agricultural distress.—(Hear.)
A majortty of country gentlemen were induced, in
the Committee of Isls, to adopt an able report
drawn up by. all-. 11tiikieeon, which made an
important step towards improvement of the corn-laws. --
(Hear, hear.) The Committees of 1815 and 1833 were
the means of bringing together a body of information
which tied been immensely useful.—(llear, hear.) The
Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir It. Peel) aelepted
that report. Bet it did not serve the arguments uga,,nst
this motion. The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Herbert)"
said that Committees of this kind we're of no use, as ie
was, not questions_ of detail they had to 'consider, but
q6stions of great principles, which might be"consi-
dered ha the House. He (Lord Howick) had no hesita-
tion in stating that his opinion was made up.---(Hear,
hear.) He did nut want to wait for the result of the
Committee to make up his mind, nor .did he think that
the appointment of it woeld be a reason. for postponing
the motion of his Hon. Friend the Member for Wolver-
hempton.—(Hear, hear:) But, was there nothing the
Committee could do beyoad debating, on the principle of
protecting duties?—(Hear.) On the contrary, he thought
much valu-tble information could he collected indepen-
dent of the corn laws and protecting duties.—(Hear.)
They invariably found ou..the _one side of the House and
en the other the most extraordinar statements of

facts.—(Heree-hear.) -Why not go into Committe=e and
see oil whiW,Sidb the truth lay, preparetory to the dis-
cussion- which must eventually come on in the flouse?
—(Cries of"./I,:ar, hear.") Was it not desirable
to ascertain whether the existence of the laW ihad or
not the 'effect of encouraging false hopes in the 'm ads of
the farmer..?—(hear.) That it had that effect was as-
seats.; in that House, and he now assertedahat it was
easy of proof if they went into the Comm ttee.(l-lear,
hear.) It led the farmers:to expect a certain price for
their produce; and, since the peace, that fa'ae expectation
had been the ruin of thousands.—(Cheers.) Again, it
was material to ascertain what was the effect ofahe
price of corn upon wages of labour.—(Cries"Of " Hear,
hear.) He heard it repeatedly said. in the • House
that the low price of corn produced low price pf labour.
But new it was with infinite satisfaction he heard the.
Right Hon. Gentleman say that the low :price of food
brought on by abundance was a benefit to every class.-e
(Hear, hear.) That must be the case in a proper state
of the law ; but even in the present state he believed
that 'it was so.—(Hear, hear.) But he* happened
it that whenever prices were lociered there
were the_ most whining complaints on the 'part of-the
assriculturists?7(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gen-
tleman said that it was not the IoW prices that caused
the present distress but the failure of the crops...He (Lord
Howick) believed it was so. But did that account for
the language used by the Duke of Buckingham,'which
he could only describe, in the words of an old statute, as
that of a sturdy .beggar—(Hear, hear, and' laughter.)
The Right Hon. Gentlemen opposite reported 'in 1833
the most melancholy statements as to the condition of
the tenant-farmers. Their condition was painted in the
most gloomy terms—they were paying, the rent out of
their capital—and they were then in . a state of .peogres
sive ruin.—(The Noble Lord then read .at great length
an extract from the Report of the Agricultural Commit-.
tee of 1821, setting forth the distressed state of the :far.:
mers at .that period.)—lf they took -that report, the low
prices which the Right Hon. Gentlemen now- stated to
be for the benefit of all parties were the ruin of, the far-
' mers. However, the result of all the inquiries had been
to take off the protection from other articles.. He should
like to see what would the answer of the proposed Com-
mittee be to the gloomy predictions of the Dulse of Rick;
mond as to the importation, of wool since 1837: and of
cattle, more recently.—(ilear, hear, and laughter.) The
'House would remember the arguments of the Hod. N,leme
bar for Berkshire against the importation of 'pigs irhen
that llon..Member said that so many quarters of corn
would be imported in the shape i•ef
,pigs„—cLfiughte.r.)
Now he should like to ascertain in Committee what had
been the effect of the introduction of cattle ? Ile should
like to inquire 'for the facts which 'would show that pro
teetion was necessary, for the cultivation of wheat and
not for flax.—(Hear, bear.) They were told -that the
removal of protection would affect the labourer more
than the landlord, and would throw land out of cultiva-
tion. He should like to hoar from a Conlasittee, as
merely matter of figure's, whether rent entered -so much
into the price of corn that a reduction or rent would
enable the farmer to meet a reduction of prices.--(ilear,
hear.) There were many of those points on which in-
formation was easily attained, which would refute the
mass of vague, unfounded assertions which were
constantly reported in the House, and which in
_terfered with the discussion of -this, momentous
questiOnee-(Hear,, and cheers.) Suppose they had
a strong conviction • that. the Committee would not tend
to any practical result. ' Was that a ground fbr refusing
the inquiry, when they saw at that moment what was
the condition of the tenant-farmer and the labourer?—
(Hear, hear.) They might consider the inquiry useless,
but their reason for refusing the inquiry
.was, to him iii-
coinprehensible.—(Hear, hear.) The. Secretary at War
'stated that the agriculturists were of,very delicate nerves'
laugh)—and if the House were to go into the in-
quiry,. they would be thrown into a so't. of al irtn, so
that they would give up their farms.-.—(Laught-r.) How
could such a Committee as the lions Member for Wol-
verhampton most fairly offered, containing a majority
of " farmers' friends," give them such a shock?-L(Hear.)
The Right Hon. Gentleman said that, in asking for the
Committee; they (the Opposition) expected to put an
end to protection. Undoubtedly he (Lord Howick), for
one, did so,--(Cheers.) He believed that in the Com-
mittee it would be shown that the repeal of the pro
tective duties would be . a relief to the farmers them-
selves. It was because he had such perfect confidence
in the justice of 'his case, that he asked for inquiry,
because he believed that the most irrefragable proofs
would ba prodeced of the justice of his case.—(Cheerse)
The refusal to give the Committee could he'accouated
for on no other ground than that they (the Ministers)
had no confidence in their own assertionsee(Cheers.)
They would be ready enough to grant the inquiry, if
they did not find, in the bottom. of their: hearts, that
the vague sophistries which they passed muster so
boldly in the House would not bear to bessifted in de-
tail, and pass through the ordeal of examination up-_
stairs.—(Hear, hear, and cheers.) They knew that
they would undergo so complete a refutation that
they would be ashamed to repeat them.—(Cheers.)',
The only rational ground Or lion. Gentlemen oppo-
siterefusing to go into dhis Committee was, that they
had really no case; and he was the more convinced of
this, because, while they refused a Committee, they also
refused to grapple with the arguments of the Hon. Mem-
ber for Stockport against the whole.systeni of protecting
duties. If they felt any Confidence in -their case, they
might, at least, attempt to grapple with the luminous
and able speech of Hon. Member for Stockport, and
prove that: the system of protective duties ,was not the
cause of "the agricialtiiral distress. The Right Hon.
Gentleman the. Secretary at War did: net attempt the
slightest answer to those arguments.. He (Lord Howick)
would now endeavour to show why.•it • was that he ens
tirely concurred in the opinion expressed by his Noble
Friend the Member fair Lowden .S9me,time ago, wile
said that protecting duties .haeFiniTeed been the bane
of agriculture.—(Hear, hear.) If this Committee
were granted, they would' show that the system
of protection had been tried' thirty years ago, and that,-
notwithstanding all the niodiliCetions which it under-
went, it was acknowledged to be a complete failure.—
(Hear.) The Bill of. 1815 had even , this advantage;
that it was concocted according teethe views of the high s'
flown adsocates.of protection.(llcar, hear.) But the
result was, that in a few years after there was a great
deal of agricultural' distress. A Committee was ap-
pointed; containing a majority
.of agricultural Members,
who came to the conclusion that 'the Act of 1815 bad
failed in its object, but they did not give up its protecting"
system. No such thing—they said they, mistook the"
way, but they did not give up their favourite notion.'
The Committee made a report, and in consequence of
that report an alteration was .matlein the law of 1815,
and, under the auspices of the Right . Honour--
able Baronet opposite, the law of 1828, which
he afterwards destroyed,' became the law of the land.
But what was the consequence ? In 1833; 1834,' 1835,
and 1836, complaints were made in that House of agri-
culturardistress. A
,Comnitfro was again appointed,-
and the Right lion. Baronet declared that more protec-
tion wOuld
,notenend the case, and that they had better'
wait for better times—for that was the meaniug, shortly
translated, of the .report of 1833. What was the cause
of that ? There was then no Aati-Corn•law agitation,
because prices were so low that the evils of-protection
were not then so seriously felt. The Right lion. Gen.;
tleman then came forward, and said that there had been
a good deal of bungling about rrotection—that protec-
tion was a good thing, but they had- not gone the right
way to work it, and accordingly he passed his C •
Bill with a great majority.- Bat they, were now witnease
ing the happy results of his experituent,—(Hear, hear.)
Under that system. of protection, the progress of agri--
cultural improvement had been extraordinarily slow, as
the. Hon. Gentleman the Member for Stockport had
shown. If any body loeked at the country he could not
fail-to see that the degree of Agricultural improvement
was far heron' what it ought to be. Let them compare
the improvements which had taken place in agriculture
Since the peace, with the improvements which had taken
phicc in ether branches dr science, and it would . appear
from, the result,' thit while steam navigation and railroad
Alevelopmsint, and, in fact, all the arts an I sciences, had.
progreased with great regularity, the science of agricul-
ture had by no meant kept pace. with them.—(Hear,
hear.) Although the most beneficial results:might be
derived from -draining, draining was scarcely begun in
some courrtiea ; and. while farmer's allowed. the best
manure at theitOwn doors to run to waste, they imported
it At a vast expense from the comet of Africa.—(Hear,
hear.) Any person who travelled doWn to Manchester
'must perceive that while .the land in the, neighbourhood
of that town, which .was most fertile by nature, and
which had an excellent market for milleand butter which
it would yield, was grown over with rushes—(Hear,
1143.40-eland which required only a few hours to render it'
mist productive--that while the land near that town was
suffered to lie in such a state, in the town itself every
improvement was adopted which . would multiply the
means of production, and yield a saving, however small.
There was one mode, and only one,' of. accounting for
this, namely, that there was no security.•--(Hear, hear,
from Mr. Miles.) He understood .the cheer of the Hon.
Member for Somerset, and would advert to it presently.
The Cause of that difference was to be found, in the first
place, in the absence of the stimulus of foreign competi-
hear)—owing to,which the landed-proprie-
tors were content to leave the land in such a disgraceful
state as it was in at present.—(Cheers.) It was owing
again to the want of leases.—(Hear, hear.) Any Gen-
tleman who was at all acquainted with the subject, must
know there was the greatest difference between those
farms which were held under lease, and those which
were not.—(Hear.) . L-'t a person for instance compare
the, agriculture of East Lothian and Buckinghamshire.
-=-:(Hear.) But he would tell tho Hon. 'Member for
_Somerset, it ' was owing also, and principally, to that
want of security which the landlords could not give as
long as they kept up a system of security.—(Hear, hear.)
He supposed the Hon. Member meant by his cheer
that that want of security was owing to the Anti corn •
levy League, but he would tell the Hon. Gentleman that
there was notany security for the farmers hi•fore the Anti-
c-rn law League were in existence. Amiss lung as they
ware subject to the ebb and flow, which he believed were
insenstraille from protection, they would not have se.
curity:—(Cheers.) They would. not'finrl it no long as
they breathed the sickly air of pritection. It wag this
insecurity that caused capital to fi )w out of the. Country
and teebe investstt in foreign railways, at the risk of
War. E,ven if they rejected this motion, es he expected
they would, by a majority of two to one, that would not
give that security- to the farmers which the farmers'
friends themselves were conscious :was neeessary.—
(Elear.) He would now tome to a more serious part of
the case, because, after what.had been said by the Hon.
Member for Stockport on the former part of it, he (Lord
Howie's) felt it would be unnecessarily wasting the time
of the House to dwell longer upon it. But he would
come to the effect of the protective. systtm upon the
labouring classes ; and here also he thought that a
strong prima facie case had been made out against
protection.—(Bear, hoar.) In t4el. Southern coun-
ties of Englund particularly, the agricultural labourers
were in a-most wretched condition. It was the wonder
of every 'on how the agricultural labourer
.supported
Tiiinsell antTittnily :We' the wages" ho' 'receiVed:-e-(fiettr:)

Of bread, he had very fs,:r from sufficient ; of meat, he
seldom or ever tasted—( Hear)—his clothing was inade-
qutte and as to beer, Coffee, and tea, be had infinitely
below his reasonable share,—(Hear, hear.) Why any
one 'of them could not keep u labouring man and his
family for twice the nioney that the labourer could him-
self support them. How wss this to be accounted for
. From one or other of these causes—either that the
whole supply of .the nati,n was be:ow the wants
of the n. tion, or eke the labourer did not
receive a fair proportion.; or else the supply was b-itb-
tlo small and even of that the labourer did not receive
his due proportion. If that were admitted, he would
follow up his argument by Showing, that the system of
protective duties had diminished the whole supply of
the necessaries required for the national wants, and that
it els) altered the distribution of that supply. As to the
first point, it was too plain to be denied by any one.
He would make that out in a short time. He would
take an illustration from the sugar duties. He had
shown a few nights ago that the same amount of manu-
factured goods or money would buy 28} tons
of Brazil sugar, and only 18i- of colonial sugar.
He would state the matter at a disadvantage, because
the difference of the price between colonial and foreign
sugar was different' to what it was- now.-(flear,) If
the duty on sugar was placed upon•a proper foundation
they would be enabled to get in the country twenty-
six t ns of sugar in the place of eighteen.—(Hear.)
Now, could it be for one moment doubted, that what
was true with respect to sugar, was equally so with
respect to coffee and meat?—( Hear, hear.) The first
was indirect taxation, and was bad; it diminished the
comforts of the poor, -and that was its avowed object
and design.—(Hear.) The- protective duties were put
on for that object and nothing else.—(Hear, hear.)
He thought, therefore, that it was
.not only not
unreasonable to ask for, but it was the bounden duty of the
House to grant a Committee to inquire into the subject.
Could any one deny that there was some Connexion between the
distresses of the people and scarcity, especially when that scrrcity
was occasioned by, the law ? Nov, with respect to the corn-laws,
the) deprived the lab.mring man of his proper remuneration ;
labour was not protected, and he believed that the cause of the
want of the necessaries of life in America arose in consequence
Of their copying what had taken place in this country with re-
spect to the restriction upon the fruits of industry.
He did not see how inquiry could be refused on

this important subject ; if they refused it, they
would go before the country with this feeling,
that they were maintaining laws for the benefit of the owners
of the land, and fur the Purpose of keeping up rents and aggra-
vating the distress of the people. Was this consistent with
the Divine precept, that " the labourer was worthy of his
hire ?"—(Hear, hear.) But what was the fact ? Why,
while the wealthy classes were inereas'eg, in their comforts,
the poor man's rents were doubled. The hire of the labourer,
who reaped and ploughed the .fields, had been kept back by
fraud. He did not attempt to impute to any of the Gentle-
men opposite the maintenance of laws that operated against
the working classes—the labsuring classes. They were bound
by the most solemn obligations.to neglect nothing to alleviate
the condition of their fellow-men—((Tear, hear)—and how,
therefore, could they refuse granting {be Committee that was
now asked by the Hon. Member for Stockport?---( Hear, hear. )
If they went into Committee he was content—( Hear, hear )_
hut then he would say that they could not be justified in the
eyes of God or man in retaining those laws unless they granted
inquiry.—( Hear, hear.) He could never believe that an
All-wise and Beneficent Creator, who had pronounced upon
the human race the curse of labour, ever intended that labour
should go unrewarded.—( Hear, hear.) Let them remember
that every man among them was as answerable for that share
of political power which they enjoyed as Members of that
Home, and for the use he made of it in reference to the con-
dition and;welare of the humble classes, as he was for his coo-
duct in. private life ; and if therdid remember_this, they would
hardly consent to reject the motion. '
Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN said he was quite sure that •
a suspicion never entered the mind of any Member of that
House that the Noble Lord, in quoting that book to which ho
hid referred in his speech, had any intention of making a per-
sonal application ; but ,at the_ same time the House would
agree withhim that it was desirable to make allowances for
those who, as conscientiously as.the Noble Lord, came to a dif-
ferent. conclusion.—(Hear, hear.) Now, when they combined
what the Noble Lord had said, stating, as he had done, that no
other labourers, artiffcers, or manufacturere, were able to com-
' pete with English labourers,' English artisans, and English ma-
nufacturers, and:that there was. more corn grown in England,
''compared with the quantity *of acres, than in any other country
in the world exclusive of the Netherlands, he thought they
Would 'allow that the case had not been very definitively
made out against the system under which such a state of thing.
existed. It appeared that there was a little contrariety of epi-
nion bet Ween the Noble Lord end the Hon. Member for Stock-
port. The Hon. Meniber for Stockport had said, the other
night;that in proportion as they receded from the tall chimneys
they found agriculture neglected; while the Noble Lord had
stated time evening that, in the neighbourhood of Lancashire,
rushes were growing uppn the lands.—( Hear, hear.) If the
latter statement were true, instead of going into the agricultu-
ral districts, the Anti-Corn-law League should look to the
vicinity of their own town, where they might find land to be
drained, farms to be improved, and rushes to be eradicated.
Now, he had himself at a former period given notice of his in-
tention to move for a committee to inquire into the causes and
extent of agricultural distress ; bat he was anxious
that it should be entirely a farmer's and farm-labeurer's motion.
elf the House granted this moved for by, the Hon. Member, it
would be merely a matter for political economists and free
traders. Independently of the words of his, motion, the animus
of the Hon. Member's speech made him doubt whether he
would be justified in 'giving him his supeort. Skilful as that
speech was, able in its details,' and unvioleut in its language,
when he *Considered the picture' which the Hon. Member had
drawn of the tenants-at-will and the tenants-at-lease, he could
not help thinking that he made a serious charge without dis-
tinction of party against the landoweera of England. When
he heard bites' say that nothing could be more miserable than
the condition of
_those classes of persons, . that they were
averse to all improvement, that they lived in indo-
lence, 'sloth; and inactivity, and'were constantly coining to
that House for protection, he certainly did feel that it would
not be becoming in him, returned as he had been by an agri •
cultural constituency, deeply honouring the landowners of this
country, and feeling that on the whole they had done their
duty, to vote for a metioe which .had been introduced by such
a speech.—( Hear, hear.) He had the high authority of the
Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Edinburgh, for de-
claring that the deasiOn with reference to a motien fur a
COMmittee was in 'ae great degree to be determined by the
animus of him who moved for • it.—( Hear, hear.) On the
wbole he was very sorry that the Government had chosen to
reftise this Committee.—( Hear, hear.) He regretted that his
Right. Hort. Friend, speaking the sentiments of the Govern-
ment, had.feli it his duty to recommend him to withdraw his
amendment. He knew very well what was the meaning of tha' •
advice. Though it Was given with all that agreeableness and
gooanature which rendered everything that fell from that
gifted gentleman
,so undisagreeable—(Laughter)—softening
do*Uthe refusal of elle negative as much as possible, it was
st;11 tantamount to saying " If you divide on your amendment,
you will find yourself in a miserable. minority."—(No, no. )
Now there were three parties in that House in reference to this
CoMMittee. There were the free traders, who were anxious
fora Committee to blow up the country gentlemen. There
was the Government, which 'refused this. Committee,
for the old official reason, that to grant it would create excite-
ment, and raise unfounded expectations.—(Hear, hear, and
laughter.) The third party was himself, who earnestly wished
the inquiry, from a belief that_ so far from exciting it would
' tend to soothe, and that so far from unsettling it would tend
to 'tranquillise the country.—(.Hear, hear.) He could tell
Hon. Members, that if they thought agricultural distress
war local they were completely, is the wrong ; and as
he was not to have the opportunity of bringing these
farMers there to speak for themselves, he tsusted that
the House would permit him to read some extracts from the
speeches which they had made When they had met together.—
( Hear, hear.). If they had often exaggerated, that was one
reason in favour of allowing theM to come before the House,
in order that mistakes might be removed. He would begin
with a meeting at Market Harborough. The Ron. Membo,
then read a resolution, to the effect, that the admission at
foreign corn at the preseet low rate of duty was unexpected
and uncalled. for. The Hon. Member next read a petition
Durham, stating that the agrietilturists had been greatly
injured by the late alteration in the corn-law, the tariff, and
the law with respect to Canadian corn. The Honourable
Member then read resolutions passed .at meetings in.
IJeionshire and in Lincolnshire, couched in similar
language. A, resolution passed a,t, a meeting in Shrop-
shire, recommended the imitation ,of the spirit of union ex-
hibited by the members of the Anti Corn law League. The
Agrieniturat Protection Societies of Rutland, Leicestershire,
Essex, and Staffordshire, all spite in a similar ten', all declared
that' distress existed equal to that he had read. Therefore,
vvheii the Right lion. Member for North Wiltshire said the
distress was local, he muse inform him that he did not speak the
sentiments of the farmers. The distress of these farmers was
exaggerated by the feeling that the Government was either not
aware of its extent or pressure. Had one-half of the distress
existing among ' the farmers, existed in the manufac-
turing districts, there would have been no end to the
clamour raised in their behalf,—( Hear, hear.) He did not
say that in that case he should blame the manufacturers—he
did not say that in such case. he should blame the farmers. He
should not, on the one hand, charge the manufacturers with
being too clamorous, nor on the, other hand would he accuse the
farmers of being too supine.. But. he begged the House to
remember that the characteristics of the two classes
were, essentially different. It , was the habit of one
class to unite—of the other to endure in isolation.
Therefore, *hen the questiiM -of . kid-cultural distress came
before the House, both that House and the Government, what-
ever might be its political complexion, ought to remember the
characteristics of these two Plasses, and be careful how they
neglected the Claims of -the agrimilturists. he Right Hon.
Member for-North WiltShiet bad Said he did not wi-h to see
agriculturists come whining to that House for protection.
He (Mr:. Stafford O'Brien) should hiinself 'be sorry to see the
bold yeomen of England come whining to that House, or else-.
where.. 'But he was sure. the Right Hon Gentlem in did not
mean to say that if any portion of her Majesty's subjects felt
that they Were in distress; and that any legislative enactment
would remove that distress, the farmers, if they came before
that House, and spoke by petition or through the voice of their
representatiies, ought to be charged.with whining. lie laid a
stress on this, because he knew well how eagerly every word
uttered in that House by the Government was watched, and
because he was anxious to do away the effect of an expression
which seemed something like unkindness or inconsistency
towards them. The Noble Lord the Member of Sunderland
had referred to the duties on wool, cattle and flax, and had In-
stanced these as three cases in which the repeal of the
protective duty might be considered as advantageous. He
could not but think that if the Noble Lord had permitted him.
self to consider for a moment, he would have found that no
three articles could have been more injudiciously chosen. The
Noble Lord, skilful as he was in other things, would not be
considered as a practical grazier, if heThought that the effect of
the tariff, wi h respect to the importation of cattle, would realise
what was expected from it at the end of three years. With
respect to the duty on flax, the repeal applied not to flax that
hasi been grown, but to that which was yet to growl and whe-
ther flax Could be grown at all without a protective duty re-
Maimed to be proved. lie hid spoken
m E
withhagflaarna. (l
me.r_oritiliea. and'
this point,
and he had said, " If they coovurdlirly gheltsiaaprrgouteedettihveatd.
flu tayx ohn:ldierb,eehne
believed
r.
withoutt couldfThaeprotective
Noble
gorbolwe
il e
duty, but he 'denied that towns ex-
tent this had been the case. Flax was not grown in England.
Ireland," from several Hon. Members on the Opposition
benches.) He was aware of that fact, but the Noble Lord was
not speaking of Ireland, and whether flax could be grown in
England without a protective duty waJ an experiment that yet
remained to be tried. The Noble Lord alluded also to wool—
he should recollect that when the repeal of the wool duty was
nroposedthe agrieultutrh them fair creditainterestdiil tintfor
someoppo deseigre of ~
tanillr.:
therefore, might give
doro when they opposed the reduction of the duty on corn. It
showed-that they could discriminate—that they were able to
judge which duties might be repealed sod which might not.
They were not misled and blinded by any theory to declare
that every kind of restriction was mischievous, nor did they
from the other extreme wish to retain every protective duty in
operation. They applied their minds to the question of re-
striction and that of-the removal of restriction, and they might
claim ..equal:marit for.that.whioh-they -had the wisdom to refuse
and that which they had the wlldom to retain. He was sorry

•MA RCH

14, 1845.

that the Government had chosen to refuse this Committee.
He was returned to that House to support.
,the
system of protection. lie was returned on protection
principles, and from those protective principles he was not
aware that he had ever swerved.—( Hear, hear.) He had
been too long in that House to commit himself blindly,)ey any
pledge against those changes which must occur in the "re-
volution of ages," as his Right Hon. Friend the Member for
Newark had stated. But, as far as he could judge, Image* to
reason to shrink from the advocacy of these principles, and
because he believed them to be true, therefore he believed
they would bear inquiry.—(Cheers.) He was not going to
say that in that House it was prudent to grant every inquire
that every man might propose, at his own time, on his own
terms, End for his own purpose ; but he did say, that when
they had heard the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of
State for the Hsme Department get up and introduce his
Bill on the law of settlement, and tell them that one person
out of' every ten was receiving parish relief—when, in addition
to this, he was able to bring forward statements from the whole
country of the extent of agricultural distress—it seemed to
him that the time had come when there should be this inquiry.
It might be said, that the questions to be proposed to these
farmers would be beyond their understanding. It was ex-
tremely common to say that questions were beyond the under-
standing of common men, but, unfortunately, they were not
iseyond their misunderstanding.—( Hear, hear.) They were
fregeently misunderstood, with danger to themselves and to
the country. He did hope that the Government, before this
discussion closed, as they were to have no COmmittee
and no inmegy, would do him the justice of
saying that he had not shrunk from bringing
forward the cause which he believed to be that of the agricul-
turists; he hoped they would be able, -and he saw the Hon.
Member for Manchester opposite, to give them some intima-
tion that they had taken steps towards the furtherance of a
matter which was brought forward last session—he meant the
Obtaining of more exact statistic knowledge with respect to
the agriculture of this country. He did not wish to re-estab-
lish the board under Sir John Sinclair, but he did wish the
Government would announce that they had taken the matter
into their serious consideration. The Right Hon. Member
for North Wiltshire, and he believed the Hon. Member for
the West Riding, had been pleased to be very mirthful
on seeing the Hon. Member for Stockport conferring with
him (Mr. S. O'Brien); he said it put him in mind of the
entente cordiale which the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of
the Government supposed to exist, when he (Mr. S. O'Brien)
pledged himself to move for this Committee. This mirth
might be again excited, n w that he again appealed for that
Committee. But he thought from whatever side or party a
motion was made favourable to agriculture, no distinction of
political opinions should induce him to withhold his support
from it, and let him tell the Government it was not the union
of any individual Members on either side of the House, but it
was that while the benches of the House were distinguished,
and the two sides preserved, the political principles of
ime side were carried into effect by the legislation
of the other. The lion. Member fur Stockport had alluded in
in eloquent manner to the aristocracy of this country. The
aristocracy had ever stood by the people, and, he believed, would
stand by them still. While they were determined to maintain
an agricultural peasantry—while they thought that the greet
.nerit of agriculture over manufactures was that if any evils
arose in connexion with agriculture they could he brought home
ind traced—ho was certain they would belie the history of the
past and their experience of the present—they would belie all
they had read, and all they had seen of them, if they refused, at
any time, however large might be the majorities in that House,
orehe preponderance of interest, to take into their serious and
anxious consideration the great question of the food of the people.
Mr. BRIGHT said if he had any doubts of the propriety of
voting for the present motion, they would have been dispelled
by the speech of the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down.
He had never heard a speech from an agricultural Member so
clear and explicit, or so easy to be underatood.—( Hear.) It was
a speech entirely to the question, and contained a large number
of statements from several of the counties of England, of the
amount of agricultural distress. But at the same time it con-
tained many paragraphs of a see-saw character, as if the Hon.
Gentleman was vibrating between his Hon. Friend the Mem-
ber fcr Stoekport and the Secretary at War. At the present
moinena ho could acarcely tell whether the lion. Gentleman
.ntended to vote for the motion or not. He had, however, cer-
tainly done himself more credit on this occasion than he did last
year, when he occupied two entire hours in reading extracts
from the speeches of gentlemen connected with the League,
which were not much to the point. He hid spoken out boldly; he
had told the Minister that there was some remnant of independ-
ence about them. He could not see how they could refuse this
committee, having g-anted committees of inquiry into the
came-laws, and even into dog-stealing. The speech of the
Right Hon. Secretary. at-War was the usual stereotypedofficial
answer which was always made to every demand for an inquiry.
When the Right El••n. Gentleman (Mr. S. Herbert) was
making his speech at Salisbury, near his own residence, there
were able-bodied labourers who were picking stones from
fields at the rate of Bd. a day. The farmers were in a state of
the utmost dismay at the ravages which were being committed
ay game on their farms. Did the Right Hon. Gentleman
give leases? He might or might not, but he (Mr. Bright)
very much suspected that he did not, and from the state in
which the Right Hon. Gentleman's estate was at present,
he (Mr. Bright) was quire sure that the Right Hon. Gentle-
man could not do without every high degree of protection. No
doubt this Committee would be refused in consequence of the
prejudic' which existed in favour of the corn-laws. This prejudice
he believed was founded in mistake. The agricultural was
not the most prosperous class. There was not another class
from whom protestioe had been withdrawn that was not more
prosperous than the cultivators of the soil, and more prosperous
than before protection, was withdraw.—(" No," emphatically
from Col. Sibthorp.) Let them take the case of the iron
trade. At one time that trade was very highly protected, and
when the Government proposed to abolish that protection the
iron masters were as much opposed to its removal as
the landlords were with respect to the corn-laws.—( Hear. )
They stated that if the protection were removed, they would not
be able to export any more iron, and'they would be inundated ,
its this country by foreign iron. Now what had been the fact?
Why, instead of the exportation of. English iron diminishing,
it had increased ten or twenty fold. The iron-masters had
now almost a natural monopoly in the supply of iron through-
out the world. Let them take the case of the
,ilk-trade. The increase in that trade sines, the
trade had been thrown open, had been mote ' than
two millions of pounds in ten years. There could be no
doubt that the abolition of restrictions with respect to agri-
culture would be attended by a large increase in consumption.
—(" No, no," from Colonel Sibthorp.) The case ' of wool
'tad that night been alluded to, and he need not advert
'o it further: With respect to the linen trade, the Hon.
Member fur Dundee would bear his testimony to the fact that
the opening of the trade had largely increased it. The protec-
tionists had first come to that House blustering, but now
they came in a more supplicating manner and asked that pro-
tection might be continued. They came down to the arena
aefore the public, but they did not come forward fairly to the
tight. Why did they not come and have a fair tight in the
committee-room? Witnessesmin each side could there be pro-
timed. Those who asked for this Committee were not party•
men. Why, if it had not been for a few of them, those on the
other (the Ministerial) side of the House might have keen
put to great risk and expense by another election last year.
they must recollect the shout, he would not say of approba-
tion, but something like execration, with which some Members
of that (the Opposition) side were hailed when they came in
from the lobby. They had never been party men in the coun-
try. If they got upon this Committee honest free traders and
aonest protectionists, without having any mere politician, they
might fairly settle this question. The farmers would be greatly
disappointed if the Gentlemen opposite did not vote for this
Committee. He did not allude to the Treasury bench, because
they were the politicians of whom he had spoken. The farmers
had sent the Gentlemen opposite to guard their interests.
Those Gentlemen had, however, allowed the Right Hon. Ba-
ronet to pass measures which were not wise. Their tenants
told them that those measures were not wise. At their
meetings they told their tenants that those measures
were not wise. The Gentlemen opposite had come
to that House as the farmer's friend, and yet they refused to
go into the examination of this question. Now, this was to)
had. There were those on the opposite side of the Houss
rho had not scrupl.ed to leave their party for their principles.
They, on the Ministerial side, had not yet left their party for
their principles. Some fifty years ago, he now spoke from what
he bad read in history, the country gentlemen, as they 'were
called, were very important Members of that House. They
fre9nently read of some of these country Gentlemen of great
weight having got up- to propose certain resolutions for or
against the Gore: timent. Nobody expected flashes of oratory
or flashes of wit, but everybody expected common sense and
honesty of purpose. Their independence was confessed by all,
and their influence was felt by all. That party had now
tilen into decrepitude and decay. bow, he was not
an enemy to the c iuntry gentlemen. Although he hail
spoken severely of them, they certainly had had satisfaction
out of him. He had said nothing harsh of them that they hail
not replied to over and over again. It had been said of Charles
the First that he could see if he would, and of James that he
would see if he could. If Gentlemen opposite could see pro-
tection as he (Mr. Bright) did —(Laughter)—he meant
with respect to the national go ,d, and not as respected private
interest—they would not continue this law against millions of
their countrymen who were crying out. Ho thought the
Right Hon. II ironet exercised a little too much influence in
turning Hon. Gentlemen opposite. Those Hon. Gentlemen
displa: el a great deal of courage at the Freemasons' Tavern,
in t when they met their agricultural constituents they really
stoke most valiantly. But they did aot do so when in thaaliouse.
tine infleenem of the Right Hon. Gentlemin put him in mind
the manner in which the Irishman tamed his horse. Did those
Hon. Gentlemen recollect for what they were elected in
1841 ? It was to keep up the price of wheat. Wheat was
then 70s. a quarter. Would the farmers have supported them
then, if they had declared that they intended to support a
measure which would brine wheat down to 45:—(11ear.)
Bat really this subject was too, serious for joking. A Cem-
mission was going about the counties of Dorsetshire, Wilt-
shire, and Hampshire; and from that Commission a report
had lately been made. From this report . it ap?eared that the
agricultural labourer expended about 30s. a year in articles
of manufacture, and that included making. ' Now the
manufacturing population were increasing, and the
agriculeural population were increasing.—( Hear, hear.)
He had spoken to the Representatiyes of agricultural districts,
on the other side of the House, and he would ask them, why
.hould they not concede to. this proposition ?—( Hear, hear.)
He would say to them, " Now, do be advised by the course
we suggest."—( Laughter.) It had been said that they, at
hil side of the House, knew very well what it was already—
perhaps they did—( A laugh)—but there might happen to be
a few who did not—(A laugh) —and, in the meantime, who
could tell but that the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of her
Majesty's Government, would come forward with some new
proposition en free-trade.—( Hear, and a laugh.) But now to
.put an end to this joking, he would ask the House to take
into consideration the state of the tenant population of the
country.—( Hear, hear.) He did not speak of them or their
condition in any feeling of anger towards the Government;
but this he would say, that when it had been well known
throughout the world that this subject would be brought for-
ward before the Legislature, he felt fully justified in making the
few observations he had.—( Cheers.)
Mr. WODEHOUSE said he did not rise for the purpose of
making any reply to the comical parts of the speech of the Hon.
Gentleman who had just sat down —( A laugh)—but at the
same time he should say that his mind had been
made up on the vote he should give on this
question.—( Laughter. ) He had heird of the speech
made by the Noble Lord the Hon. Member for Sunderland,
and that allusion had been made to it by the Hon. Member
opposite; bathe (Mr. Wodehouse) wou'el say, that that speech
*as worthy of the days of Cromwell.—(Laughter.) Strong
remarks had been made on the state of the lam in respec to
corn is former times; but he would ask Hon. Members to re-
collect the state of the country at that time. —( Hear, hear. )
In a speech of the Hon. Member for Wo'.verhampton, on
this subject, it had been stated that when prices vtere low.
agricultural property was at its height ; yet in the years 1835
and 1836 such was not the case.—( ar, hear.) then again,
the Nuble Lord lied said, that in the years 1810 and IE4B, the
same argument applied, but there was no competent record
of the kind that could be referred to. As to what had been said
about, the state of the law in 1835, in reference to this subject,
in that .year a gentlemen, name' Mr. Senior, published a
pariiPhlet, in which that gentleman had shown clearly that the
wages then paid were less in proportion to the receipt of the
farmer.—(Hear. hear.) Then, with regard to what had been
Said by Mr. Deacon Hume, he would but say this—when .Mr.
Hume was asked by Mr. Chapman (it having been said that
there was a great article of expenditure in the navigation of
ships) could he make any suggestion whereby this onerous
Charge might be reduced—he was asked would any remedy

he could suggest produce any effect in bringing the same rate
of wages paid in British ships to that paid in foreign ships, :%Jr.
Hume said it wool I be impossible to say, because there was a
great variety of foreign ships, and a great variety of rates of
wages, and a great difference as to the quality of food in foreign
ships, but that the price of provisions in the ships
must be cheaper, and the wages less. He hoped this juste
milieu Government would take notice of these remarks of Mr.
Hume. Wages were the very marrow of the whole question,
and the Government should give Mr. Hume's evidence their
m_st serious consideration. He knew he ought to sit down.
—( Laughter.) Noihlng enuld give him more pleasUre than
to know that he would never I)? called upon to open his lips
again.—( Renewed_ laughtcr. ) It had been his fate, and.it.
was still his fate, that currency should be the great stumbling-
block between him and the Right Rol. Baronet at the head
of the Govemm,nt, and he verily believed that currency had
more to do with the question than anything else. He would
give a decided negative to the motion of the Hon. Gentle-
man. The farmers, from top to bottom, would be thrown
into despair—( Hear, hear)--and it would entirely unsettle
men's minds on a subject already the cause of so much dissen-
sion and excitement.

Mr. WILLIAMS said the Hon. Member who had just sat
down began by reflecting upon the speech of the Noble Lord
the Member for Sunderland, and skid it was characteristic of
the days of Cromwell. Without saying whether he would
agree with him, he would observe what he considered the Hon.
Member's eech was characteristic of—the present day and
no other.—(Laughter.) The speech was characteristic of the
class to which the Hon. Member belonged. If the Hon.
Member would excuse him from expressing his opinions
freely, he would say, that he represented the decline and decay
of his class. The Hon. Member for Norfolk must not be
offended with the remark that he was about to make.

Air. WODEHOUSE—Not a bit.—(Laughter.)
Me. VILLIERS—The Hon. Member said he bad exagge-
rated and misrepresented in some former speeches, and animad-
verted to a speech made by him in which he stated that in
1797 the agricultural classes were depressed. He presumed
in that assertion still, although the Hon. Member for Norfolk
said that at that time were very well off.
Mr: WODEHOUSE—I did'not say any such thing?
Mr. VILLIERS said he understood' the Hon. Member to
say they were very ill off. That was the year when country
Gentlemen tested the scheme of making other people pay the
wages of the agricultural labourers. lie would now again
state that there was no period when the price of food was high
that the labouring classes were not seriously distressed.
• Mr. WODEHOUSE-182'2.
Mr. VILLIERS—It was precisely in that year that a
Noble Lord, in the other House' of Parliament, spoke of the
distress of the labouring daises in the agricultural districts.
The statement of the Hon. Member for. Stockport was clear,
full, forcible, and lucid, bat how was it answered ? He stated
what the condition of these districts was, he desired investiga-
tion, and challenged contradict ion=he called upon the farmers'
friends, but they did not adduce a single argument against
what he stated. The Secretary at War affected to treat the
question with great indifference, but he could assure him that
it was one in which the people of this country felt the
deepest interest, ar.d he bitterly complained of the mode
in which the Legislature had treated the subject. He really
thought that the Right Honourable Gentleman had treated
the House with indifference, if not with neglect and contempt.
Could the Right lion. Gentleman deny that Protective So-
cieties were in active operation in all parts of the country, ex-
pressing their opinion on the agricultural depression and distress?
Was net that an evidence of general distress? He (Mr. Villiers)
thought that this was evidence of great importance, and a proof
that the distress which existed was both general and great,and
he thought that it supplied a sufficient reason for inquiry. Yet
it was said that committees were of no use, and he thought that
the Hon. Member for Wiltshire (Mr. Sidney Herbert) had
treated the House with disrespect, for he had asserted that if
they would tell him who sat upon the Committee, he would
easily draw up the report. What was the inference to he drawn
from this ? Why, that Committees were of no use. Now, he
would defend the House before the country from the assertions
of a Member—from the assertions of a Cabinet Minister, and
he would venture to tell that Right Hon. Gentleman that Com-
mittees had been of the utmost use. He would venture to as-
sert that no great measure had been brought before that House
without a previous inquiry.—( Hear, hear.) The Municipal
Law, the Poor Law, the Reform Act—all the great
measures had been preceded by inquiry—(Cheers)—and he
really thou :gist that in making that assertion the Right -Hon.
Gentleman had treated the !Luse with great contempt. He
(Mr. Villiers) was of opinion, that his Hon. Friend had
chosen a very opportune period for bringing fenteard his
motion, and that it was entitled to deference and great con-
sideration from the House. He could not for his own part un.-
derstand on what principle the Government granted or re-
fused these Committees. They had granted a Conatnittee on
the game-laws the other night ; they had not refused inquiry
to the shipowners last year, and, why not then grant a Com-
mittee asked for by nis Hon. Friend. The motion stood pre-
cisely on the same footing, and was equally entitled to inquiry
as the motions to which he has
.referred.—(Hear, hear.)
A meeting hod been held the other day at Warwick,
where the Earl of 'Dartmouth was in the chair, at which
speeches were made and resolutions passed declaratory of the
conviction of those assembled. That the measures of the pre-
sent Government went neither more nor less than to confiscate
property. —(Hear, hear.) They said, that their measures
would eonfiscate property. The Earl of Dartmouth said so,
the meeting said so, the resolutions said so : and he thought
that it wes a very great shame that those assertions and resolu-
tions should go uncentradieted. Let them grint this inquiry,
and they might summon the whole of these parties before the
Committee, a• d make them state the grounds on which they
made these assertions.—(Hear, bear.) It should be recol-
lected that this meeting we attended by a great number
of country gentlemen, and that they would go home end
diffuse these opinions.—(Hear, hear.) Now, it should be
recollected that the opinion of these Lords and Squires
was accounted as gospel much more than that which
the clergyman preached.:--( Hear, and great laughter.)
Now, he did not believe these nsiertione,- bttt • yet they had
calm of complaint. They complained that wheat was very
low, and he did not believe alt these assertions of the conse-
quence of the loW_ price of itheat,—(Laughter. ) But he found
that that there wee another meeting held at Stafford three
days ago, in which the speeches of those who attended the
meeting, and especially,ef the Secretary of the Society, charged
the Right Hon. flaroaet with all sorts of defalcation of prin.
ciple.—( Hear, hear.) Now ho really thought that all this Iva.,
calculated to do a great deal of injury to the country.— ( Great
laughter.) And ha was very sorry tor it—(Laughtsr )—and
he thought it ought td hi reuinied. The Hon. Member for
Northampton had adopted a curious rhrase. He said that the
agricultural mind was much agitated.—( Great laughter.) This
was a new phrase, but perhaps it was understood by the Hon.
Gentleman who used it, as be was the librarian or secretary,
or something of .a literary capacity of the Central Protection
Society—he could not say what, but that was no matter. But he
thought that the best method of sorehing the agricultural
mind was to accede to the request of His Honourable Friend.
It was upon these grounds that he should most cordially support
the motion.

Mr. G. BANKES said, at that late hour of the night, he did
not intend to oceupy the attention of the Rouse for more than
a very few minutes. He should confine himself entirely to the
question that was really.before the House, the question being
whether or not they should have a Committee to consider the
distress, and causes of the distress prevailing in the agricul-
tural districts, b •cause they had been informed by the Hon.
Member who last addressed them that the motion which he
annually brought before the Mouse would not be denied them,
whether they had the Committee or whether they had it not.
They knew, too, that another motion stood for to-morrow on
the subject of agricultural distress, and, at no d stant day, he
hoped to bring in a measure to remove such local taxation as
pressed upon farmers. He should, therefore, have ample op-
portunity for discussing the general principle which attached
to the question of agricultural protection, and this induced
him to confine himself to the question immediately before the
House. For his own part, when the suggestion was first
made by the Hon. Member for Stockport, he met it with a
most unhesitating denial, and had his lion. Friend the
Member for Northampton made the Fame suggestion
he should have met it in the same manner. He must
beg to offer to the Hon. Member for Stockport his ex-
pression of gratitude for the candour with which he had
made his proposal, but certainly the agricultural in-
terest could net enter with any satisfaction upon an
inquiry in a Committee which was proposed by the Hon.
Member for Stockport. But he could not see the advantage
of withdrawing a discussion from that House into the more
limited arena of a Select Committee, and leaving to he con-
sidered by fifteen Members what well deserved the delibera-
tion of the whole House. The existence of the distress was
denied by no one. What then was the use of a Committee?
The cause of that distress, he ventured to think, arose out of
their having departed from the principles of protection. As far
as he was himself concerned he had no desire for
this Committee, because he had nn doubt about either the
existence of the distress or the cause of it. Then with regard
to the remedy, it was quite clear they could come to no ami-
cable conclusion in a Committee. The members of the Anti-
Corn-law League admitted that they owed no allegiance to the
soil of England. They could carry their wealth to foreign
climates and still be in the same favourable circumstances, but
landed proprietors could not do this. They were forced to
remain on the soil of England. He had listened with great
attention to the speech of the Honourable Mem-
ber for Stockport, and he could not but observe
that there was a remarkable omission, and the same omission oc-
curred in the speech of the Noble Lord the Member for Sun-
derland. They had omitted to say what they were to do with
the surplus population of the country. This was a question
which. lion. Members who advocated free trade always avoided.
If we imported the quantity of corn that could be, and (if the
protection were removed) would be sent from countries
where it was cheaper grown than here, and where it was of a
superior quality, it was quite clear that a great portion of the
landonust be withdrawn from cultivation to a vast extent.
(Hear, hear.) No contradiction could be given to that by any
Committee, sit as long as it might.—(Hear.) But , with the
enormous weight of committee business that pressed upon the
House—upwards of two hundred railway committees—( Hear)
—and the Patna Committee, on which he had the honour to
be associated-with the Hon. Member of Durham, he was satis-
fied that they might for this year at least dispense with the
Committee. He did not say that there should riot be a Com-
mittee upon the subject. Neither did he think that the House ,
of Commons was the fittest place for such an iquiry. At the
same time he admitted that when there was a question of doubt
and difficulty, inquiry by Committee was desirable.—
( Hear, hear.) In this case there wan no doubt
or ditficulty—( Hear, hear)—and he did not see a neces-
sity for a Committee.—( Hear.) He did not believe that any
information could be obtained beyond what they had at present.
There was another objection to the motion. 'There had been
no petition for inquiry, although the Hon. Gentleman the
Member for South Staffordshire had presented a petition com-
plaining of the present sliding scale as affording inadequate pro-
tection.—(Hear.) With all passible respect for the Member
for Stockport, who moved for the Committee with so much
ability, he should give the motion a decided negative.
Lord INGESTRIE said that the Noble Lord who presided
at the meeting at Wolverhampton, referrer% to by the Hon.
Gentleman opposite (Colonel Anson), was no Lord Lieutenant
of any county. The petition from that meeting only complained
of the present sliding scale as not affording adequate protection.
Colonel ANSON rose amidst loud cries of " Question,"
and said he would not detain the House five minutes.
He wished to explain an error into which he had. fallen. lie
had received three petitions to present, complaining of inade-
quete protection-- one from Wolverhampton, another from
Lichfield, and the third from Stafford. The resolutions agreed
to at the meeting of the Agricultural Protection Society at
Wolverhampton was sent to him with the petitions, and it was
by a ton hasty reading of the resolutions he had fallen into the
mistake that the petition IT as against the sliding-scale.
The Hon. Gentleman then proceeded to read the petition in
which the petitioners stated that the distress of the tenant-
farmers required the consideration of Parli irnent.--( Cries of
"Divide, divide.") He was the represwritivive of an important
county, and he felt bound to refer to those petitiores which had
bazn placed in his hands.—( Hear, hear.) He did not vote for
an immediate repeal of the corn-laws, but he thought that a
fixed duty would give confidence to the agricultural interest,
and be had supported his Noble Friend behind him
in his view.' upon that subject. He did not approve of agri-
cultural s ;cieties, for he thought they did more harm than
goyl.—( Hear, hear.) He thought that amore steedy price
would be maintained by a fixed duty than under the present
system. He would support the motion of the Hon. Member
for Stockport, because he did not think the agricultural jute-
; rest need be in any .fear from inquiry.
7 Lerd WORSLPY rose amid loud cries of " Divide,
; divide." He iait he would• nit detain the House for
' I any length of time, hut he thought he ought

' to exp'ain the reasons which induced him to vote against the
motion of the Hon. Gentlemin the Member for Stockport.
He was a member of a Committee which sat in 1836, on the
subject of agricultural distress, and though they had heard
evidence from April to June, they were not able to come to
any conclusion.—( Hear, hear.) He opposed the motion, be..
cause he thought that Committee would come to no conclu-
sion. He thought it would only do mischief, that it would
hold out false hopes to the tenant-farmers and labs,urers, and
upon this ground he thought it unwise to appoint a Committee.
He would not seek popularity by holding out hopes to the
agriculturists.--( Hear. )
Mr. COBDI:li replied. All were agreed as to the
cause of the distress that existed—(Hear, hear)— and yet
they would not agree to any inquiry on the subject.—.(Hear,
hear.) In short, there was not a single motion put forward by
the benches opposite which was not a source of laughter--
which was not considered a sham. If Gentlemen opposite
would only separate .themselms from the Governtnent, they
Might do anything they pleased. •
strangers were thea ordered to withdraw, and the House
divided, when there appeared—
Por the motion ....
Against.it
Majority against the motion —93
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and the
House adjourned at a Quarter to One o'clock.