The Sun.
London, England, 1829-04-03 00:00:00

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the Catholic. persona of property will be willing to
become once as heretofore a lidk between GoVernment And
the people. That link which is now wititingwil: b!.!
The Ripht Re:. Prelate has, told us that thiS measure
"be the meaiis fnitire• dia4rGr, but on the contrary
I look to it as the means, as the 6.-NtetY means,
which will enable us to look forward with hop'
to the future tranquillity of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.)--
qtrestion confines itself to two or three id a
question whether there be any infirmity—fol. I!ifitinity
must call it as established in this country, which
inetk it impoisible for us at present to give to the
whole country the befiefitt of that Constitution which
exists in all the other countries, and Wiletbev there
it any thing in the Constitution Of the country- wticii pie-
Vents carrying that diy policy into ofeciition. lily Lords,
I shall not go into arguments that have been before gone
beet, to prove either by the Statutes of the country or by
the ReVolution of 1688, that that was the permanent ex.,
elusion of the Roman Catholics. I contend that there is no
evidence in any of the stattites to show that. I contend it
was not the sense in which King William trek it ; that
Parliament did Mot sti understand it, and that the sta.,
tuff§ proved the direct contrary. But the evidence in
the English Parliament is not the only evidence we have
on this subject. I think it very strong collateral
evidence when I tell you that the Scottish Parliament in
the Act of Union with England so understood it; and in-
deed it is only within the last ..V4 hours that I have read
the Act of the Scottish Parliament, by which I need not
tell you that they understand it in the earne way.—
The Presbyterians were still more averse to Popery than

the Church of England, and if there had been anything

like indifference on the part of the English lan, the
Scotch would not have failed to come forward and
snpplied that which was deficient in that part of the
law as it then existed. Now there is a provision
to make. The establishment of the Union is permanent
by the Scottish Acts. Then there is one to make the
Courts of Quarter Sessions permanent. Then comes the
simple clause with respect to the oaths to be taken by
Chancellors during continuance in office. I have, there-
fore, better evidence that it was the policy of the
Scottish Parliament, as it was that of the English, not to
look forward to that which might be the most injurious
to our Government ; namely, the permanent exclusion of
the Roman Catholics. The Presbyterian religion is perhaps
the most averse to the Boman Catholic of any in existence.
In hearing what the opinion of the Presbyterian then was,
it may not be amiss that your Lordships should hear
what is their opinion now, for we have the Bill sent
up from the other House, and it does so happen
that though a Noble Duke has presented a petition from
Scotland against this question, and which was repre-
sented to have the names of all the persons in Scotland
opposing the Bill, it appears that no less than forty Re-
presentatives of Scotland have sapper-ter] the measure. I
think it somewhat extraordinary that in the speeches of
those who in and out of the House have argued the measure,
they should be perpetually inviting to historical discussion
on this subject—that they should he saying you are to con-
sider this and then that—and after they hare pointed out
all the differences, they turn round and tell you that if all
the great mass of the people of England were drawn up
in array by numerical figures, the greatest number are the
persons best able to decide upon the Question. No
person can hold the opinions of the people more
sacred than I do. But I cannot consider this the
reflected and reconsidered opinion of the people that
this measure should not he carried forward. 1 have
given my vote in favour of this Bill, not because it gives
political power to the Catholics, but because it removes
encroachments. It does not add danger to time Church,
Let us, my Lords, for a moment consider whet aat danger
is:which is contended for by the opponents of this Bill to
be the result of the measure ? It is suppose d, and has been
stated by the Right Rev. Prelates to-night, that a person
was to be elected who had not authority to sit in the
House—that he had gained an influ nee which neither the
influence nor the power of the Church Establishment,
nor the purity of that doctrine which the Church
establishment is capable to support, would tend to con-
troul ; but that it would be the means of bringing a sys-
tem of error into this enlightened age, to captivate
the understindings, and overthrow the Protestant
religion. I admit, my Lords, that this is a
possible consequence, buts it is highly improbable. If
these possibilities are to be expected, I only wonder that
any of your Lordships have been able to sleep in your
beds for the last hundred years.—(Much langhter.)—
Let me ask the House to consider, and above all let me
ask the Right Rev. Bench to consider, what are the dan-
gers to which the Church is exposed in the present state
of things. I say, if there is any way more than another
to gain thousands and thousands of enemies to the Church,
it is by continuing to oppose the proposed measure.
The sons of millions of Roman Catholics of Ireland are
daily to be told that be their education and their knowledge
what it may, there is one bar they must get over before
they can attain political power, namely, the Church of
England. The Right Rev. Prelate who spoke last hoped,
if this measure passed, his Majesty's Government would
adopt some measure for the purpose of destroying the
Priesthood of Ireland. Now, I think, the most efficacious
step to be taken for that purpose is the passing of the
measure now before your Lordships.—(Hear.)—l do
not know whether it has struck your Lordship. as worthy
of remark ; but it certainly has struck me, that in the
election which took place at the dissolution of Parliament
in 1826, the Roman Catholic priesthood did show a dis-
position to interfere ; and not only did they show this
disposition, but they actually did interfere with a very
great and monopolizing power—so it is alleged. Now it
happened, that within a year of the same time, in France,
there was a dissolution of Parliament, and the Roman
Catholics thought that they had or ought to have
had a great object in influencing the election.—(Hear.)—
In that country they did not succeed ; but in Ireland they
succeeded to a considerable extent ; and why ? Because in
Ireland there was an exclusion which was calculated to
produce a false, a mischievous Government, if you will,
hes a powerful one. I say, in that view of the
question Ireland requires the most serious consideration of
your Lordships. I most sincerely warn your Lordships
not to mistake time nature of those exclusions and dis-
abilities which under the operation of particular times
and necessities have been engrafted upon tile Constitu-
tion. It has been truly said, my Lords, that those agita-
tions, arising out of temporary religious feuds, resemble
the occasional eruptions of the volcano which disturb the
natural world. I sincerely wish that these measures had
been adopted at an earlier period—at the Union of Ire-
land with England, when the measure alluded to by the
Noble Duke was brought forward to effect the object now
sought to be accomplished. For then all these evil conse-
quences would, in the spirit of a statesman-like policy,
have been prevented. But I believe the time is not now
too late, and I am grateful to his Majesty for avowing
that policy. I trust the measure will be successful, fir I
our happy to add, that in the construction of this Bill I
see nothing but a just regard to the State, and that which
will afford happiness to six millions of loyal subjects.
The Bishop of OXFORD explained.
The Bishop of LONDON said, my Lords, it is not
my intention to trouble your Lordships with a lengthened
statement of the objections I have to this measure.
Because I entered at length into the reasons which in.
duced are to withhold my assent from a similar measure
on a former occasion, and nothing has happened Niece
to induce me to alter my opinion, but, on the contrary,
from all the evidence produced in this and the ether
House, and from every additional information I have gained
respecting Ireland, I am satisfied that the immediate re-
moval of the Catholic disabilities is certainly not that re-
lief which Ireland needs.—(Cries of Hear, hear.)—
The removal of such disabilities will not touch one of the
most serious evils which harass that country. Before
I enter into some of my objections to this measure, I
may he permitted to say one word on what the
Noble Marquis who last addressed the House has said ;
with all my respect for him, I must say that he has placed
the Church of England somewhat unfairly when he states
that if their consent to the measure is withheld, it will
keep up the agitation of Ireland. It would have been
fairer to have said, if the Constitution withheld its con-
sent, for the Church of England is a part of that
Constitution, and a most essential part it is.—(Hear,
hear. )—Therefore I say, it is not fair to say, the
Church of England is the only obstacle in the way of grant-
ing what the Catholics now require. But under any circum-
stances, I cannot regard the concessions now asked as likely
to produce that pacification which it is desirous should
be brought about. How can we regard that measure
which settles only one point as calculated to produce that
desirable peace and quiet, when there are a great number
of other points on which there is the greatest dissatifaction.
I am persuaded, as I hope I may say without any violation
of charity towards a body of men who I believe for some
years have been discharging what they considered their
duty, that the Church of Ireland will never be
satisfied till it has obtained those ulterior ends it has
in view, or until its members can be convinced it
is impossible to obtain them, and that conviction is not
likely to be wrought in their minds by success on the present
occasion.—(Applause.)—The power proposed by the
Catholic priesthood in Ireland, the Noble Marquis has attri-
buted to the disqualifications which it is said it is the object
of this Bill to remove. But, my Lords, it don not appear
clear to me that the power possessed by the Catholics
of Ireland, doge arise from a Imo of disalailitiool4a moo