Star.
London, England, 1830-04-02 00:00:00

INSOLVE7iT DEBTOIII.

The SOLICITOR-GENERAL brought in a Bill for continuing
and amending the laws relating to Insolvent Debtors.

LEGAL REFORMS.-.IICOTLAND.

The LORD ADVOCATE said that the bill of which he had
given notice of his intention to move for leave to bring in, had the
object of carrying into effect those improvements in the adtnintstra.
tion of justice in Scotland, of which his right hon. friend had spoken
early in the session. The two principles upon which the measures
were founded, were those of improving the state of the administra-
tion of the law where it was defective ; and also to save expense
where it could be retrenched. The first measure which he should
have to propose related to the trial by jury, which had only been
known in Scotland since the year 11115. The people of Scotland
were become fully reconciled to it, and all that was required to
make its success complete was the abolition of what was ea/led the
Jury Court, and to have the system consolidated as it was In this
country. This was the wish of the whole of the legal profession in
Scotland, and particularly of that eminent Judge who h.ol presided
over the Jury Court for the last fifteen years, in a manner so highly
honourable to his own character, and so beneficial to his country,—
(Hear, hear.) It was proposed that the union of the Court should
take place on the sth of October. In the nest, gnat care would be
liken that all cases heretofore liable to be tried before the jury court
should still be tried before a jury in the court of session, and that all
trial issues should be heard by the two first judges, or lords presi-
dent, thus assimilating the practice to that of England, where such
issues were always brought before the lord chief justices. By the
consolidation of the courts, as many clerks would be abolished as
would give these valuable changes to the public without additional
expense. The next measure related to the court of admiralty in
Scotland, which, as now constituted, it was intended to abolish.
The court as it stood was not a valuable institution, as it had
neither the advantages of a supreme court, its decisions being lia-
ble to be reversed, nor of a local court in regard to cheapness or
expedition. . If an unhappy sailor had to recover a debt of Si.
in any part of Scotland, he must proceed to Edinburgh to the
court of admiralty before he could obtain tedress. Where the
matter in litigation was under 251. he proposed to transfer
the jurisdiction of this court to the Sheriff, and in cases where it
was above 251. to the Court of Session. He should next come to the
consistorial court of Scotland. it was at first an ecclesiastical court,
but was altered in the course of tiase. It was subject to the review
of the court of session at all times. 'lite consequence was, that a
cause was decided often three times before a judgment could be ob.
tallied. The power of this court extended in the first place to wills.
It also judged in all questions relative to estates. and actions of
bastardy ; in casts also of marriage, not only of separation a menet:
et thorst, but of actual divorce. It was meant to transfer the juris-
diction in all these eases to the court of session. This', proposal
was not unconstitutional, but would in the result be highly
useful. To refer these great causes at once to the court of ses-
sion would put an end to one great source of litigation.—
He should propose to redece two of the judges of the court of m-
elon. Two, and two only, could be saved. The court consisted
of 15 members for many hundred years. It was placed on its pre-
sent footing as far back as 1530, by James V. The lord chancellor
and the lord president were then members of it. They sat at eight in
'the morning until 11. It was provided et the union that it should
retrain within Scotland, subject to such laws and regulations
as the British Parlismeat West determine. In 1673, sixteen
Tears after the union, ea ea paned that 'when the places of the
four additional
Wen.. "coat, do, should not after be
filled up. Five these, Mpg wow . edit Is a separate mum
Zan act of 1814 the coot was divided Into two separate courts,
five judges in each, pit tee other five sat as lords ordinary,
sure iren addlite:ger higi, waft, thirsty/abet ef lords ordinary
MOM ,Fiveis dig alike tbseeforehe eared. This condb
tudon of the court only produced confusion. The lords ordinary
sat. only two days In the week. This did not look welt° the pub.
be. The * of Scotland did not, be must say. now &Sid the
necessity somber to supply the beech, ea the bench was of late

'ilia up. The two divisions, consisting of four each, could not be
reducid, as tour were admitted to be the most convenient number
of which a court could consist. The reduction, therefore, must
be made out of the other branch of the court. No more than
two judges could be reduced, unless they were prepared to alter
completely the constitution of the Court. The opinion of the Com-
mission appointed five years back, was in favour of the present con-
itution of the Scottish Courts. That Commissionvonsisted of the
most able men in the country, and their recommendations extended
only to certain regulations, not affecting the constitution of the Courts
to which their attention was directed. He proposed also that the sit-
tings should be extended one month longer. The Court now sat
for Mx months, and at the end of each Session a fortnight, at least,
should be allowed for trial by Jury of criminal cases, and a month
for civil. Criminal cases in Scotland took up much more time than
here, for two witnesses were required, and it was often, therefore,
a trial of circumstances. The circuits were occupied at least six
weeks. By the additional month he now proposed, it would leave
the courts only two months in the year for relaxation front their
labours. Ills right honourable friend (Mr. Peel) emitted to men-
den the Lord Justice General in his exposition on a former night.
He was now the practical head of the criminal law of Scotland.
The office was given often to persona of rank who seldom attended.
It was most inconvenient that a person not bred to the bar should be
placed at the head of the criminal law. It was proposed to abolish
the office as a sinecure, and to attach duties to it. The office would
thus be converted to useful melees. He proposed to give the
duties of this office to the lord President, who for twenty-five
years was in the habit of discharging the functions of a criminal
judge. The two Lords President would thus have ample duties
to perform ; for he had no doubt that the trial of civil causes by
Jury would, ere long, be greatly increased. The next Court he
should advert to was the Court of Exchequer. It was the oldest of
all the Courts. At the Union it was proposed that this Court should
have the same powers as in England. In the time of Queen Anne
the jurisdiction of it was extended to all revenue cares. If such a
Court was necessary when the excise and customs of Scotland
amounted only to 66,0001. it was doubly so when the excise and eus-
tents were 4,215,0001. If;. Court of Exchequer was necessary then, it
t. is much more so now. It was proposed to reduce this Court to the
Chief Baron, and one Judge in place of one Chief, as now, and three
Barons, the number to which it was reduced nine years back. The
Court could not be entrusted to one Judge. A provision would, how-
ever, be introduced to enable them to call to their assistance one
judge of the court of session. By the act of union it was made Impe-
rative to have a Court of Exchequer in Scotland, and he felt tho-
roughly convinced that it could not be abolished without the greatest
inconvenience. To throw this court into the court of session would
be most injurious, and no saving would be effected by It. All these
changes were calculated to promote the administration of justice in
Scotland, and on that ground he was prepared to defend them. Any
little increase of expense was not to be regarded, when it was
considered that the ultimate saving, from all the alterations
proposed, would not be less than 23,6101. It would not, however,
be fair that those who were to be removed should be deprived of all
compensation, hut many were advanced in years, and cculd not be
long he a burthen to the 'public ; eighteen offices would thus be
abolished, connected with the Bat of Scotland, a most influential
body of men. Ihe house must see that the government was thus
giving up a great deal of patronage. Trusting that the measure
would prove ultimately of the greatest advantage to Scotland, he
would not trespass longer on the time of the house. He would con.
elude by moving, in the terms of his motion, for leave to bring in
A bill for uniting the benefits of Jury Trial in civil causes with
the ordinary jurisdiction of the Court of Session, and for making
certain other alterations and reductions in the judicial establish.
meats of Scotland.

The motion being seconded,
Sir M. S. STUART expressed his approbation generally of the
proposed measures. He had received a letter from an able profes.
tier i gentleman, informing him that no leas than 20,0001. was paid
lets to the clerks of the Court of Session, and who recommended
that they should be paid by salary. It was his friend's opinion that
by this change the same duties might be performed for about six
thousand pounds a year. The sum expended in law in Scotland
was enormous, and it would be a most important benefit to reduce it.
Sir G. IVA RRENDER concurred With his lion, friend as to the
propriety of reducing the fees. He trusted a different system would
be adopted in the way of paying the clerks. With every respect for
the learned Lord Advocate, he must deny that the government gave
up patronage by these measures. The time was gone by when the
judicial office could be made a subject of patronage. The public
would not now permit such a system. There were two learned 'gentle.
men appointed to the Bench of Scotland, not long hack, who never
got 8001. a year at the bar, and who, since their appointment, gave
general satisfaction. It would be judicious to select Judges more
frequently from the middle ranks (plebe. bar. Ple.approred of this
measure as faros it went. Bylaw the court of session sat 114 daysin the
}car. Sometimes they aid not sit more than one hour, and he was
certain the one hundred and fourteen days were really not more than
three hundred hours. The Court he was sure would not sit more
than taw hundred and thirty eight days in etvil causes. He believed
the effice of justice-general was already abolished. He could not
approve of its being transferred to the justice president. Since the
year 1799 the whole of the judicial establishment of Scotland was
more than doubled In salary. The increase was about 1201. per
The amount paid by the reoe4vey-general of Scotland, under
e,k head, was 1711,4001. There was to be added 24,7001. paid in
all 201,0001. paid front the sth of January,lB2te, to the sth
o: January. 182 g. The suitors paid to Odin.: offices -a large sum
Ices. He must oppose any proposition for increasing the salary
c' the judges. In the court of session the amount in 1799 was
IDOOI. in 1829 it was 37,0001. Now considering the decline
shith took place in the price of cern and other amides, he could
s.c ao reason in the present state of affairs for increasing die in.
.:re of public officers. This was as At IL subject for inquiry as any
ch.:l-. The average price of bread corn for 20 years, ending in 1800,
wa. only one shilling lower than the average for seven years from
IShi, the price Ewing 56 shillings in the former period, and 57 in
the latter. This measure was to be followed up by a further in-
crease of salary. and it was upon this point he meant to make his
stand, and wculd at the proper time do so. Ilia object was not at all
to embarrass the government. He had an account of the prices of all
.rieles in Edinburgh in 1810, when the judger salaries were last
Lilt,. LI. If 2,9001. a year was an adequate salary for a judge in 1810
te.s so now, when 2001. was equal to 2,6001. in 1810. A
hauled gentleman, whose income was then 2,01)01. a.year, was not
worth now in Scotland mere than 1,3001. Arid' respect to the
eclat of exchequer, he did not think it ought to be reduced lower,
cr rhe judges be less than two. He hoped that the fee fund would
!:•:, wondered by the learned lord. It was one highly important.
ne reduction of it would be highly acceptable to the people of
.otland.

Mr. FERGUSON applauded the conduct of the learned lord, as
pure, honourable, and-diainterested, in the measures now proposed.
Ile concurred wish the learned lord In thinking that the Trial by
Jlry, when 'centrally introduced, would be most beneficial. He
i 32 smite doubt witt•ber the right of presiding at jury trials should
confined to the two Chiefs. Could any men be found more com-
petent to preside at soca ttials than the four Lords Ordinary last
appointed ? It appeared to him that they would be the most
persons to try such causes. He approved of the plan, so
hr as it regarded the Admiralty Court, but not the Consbeorlal
ti4urt. He should prefer allowing two of the Cenunhatotters
of the last to remain. Pie should never admit the principle of
px.enting litigation in divorce by increasing the expense. The
poor. in cases of divorce, should have theft remedy cheep. It
ought not to be confined, as in this country, to the. rich.—
The:e were, he understood, few appeals in Scotland tram the
Consistorial Court, and he thought it would be better to con.
tine it. With respect to collusion, no doubt such cases ot-
:tiered, but it was impossible to prevent it. Laid Stowell pro-
%tiered a high eulogise on the judges of that court In Scotland.
lie woe glad to hear that the Indere pageant of justice-General eras
to he reduced. It war an office purely of patronage. lie had some
doubts, however, as to the expediency of reducing the number of
judges. The question was, could four lords ordinary do the buss.
of the court 1 It was a bad principle to allow suttees to select their
judge ; the consequence was ro thetn a great weight of buslatAis,
upon owe of the judges who might happen us be a &teethe. The
it:dges of the court of Session did not perhaps sit more than three
hours a day in court, but then it must be considered that they had
to peruse a vast mass of paper:4, previously prepared by the lords
-trOinary. and which in act contain the whole case. It was not
totn:fore to be concluded 'that the only part of their time occupied
Was that passed in court. The hone gentleman.-contended that the
sahties of the judges itt Scotland ought to be increased. Being ea.
1!slled that the ditties of the court of Session were not overpaid, he
i r.tld support the motion.
Mr. ii• DRU3I3IOND could not give a silent vote on this oc-
:aeon. lie had heard the statement of the learned lord with great
satistaction and should give the motion his most cordial support.
Ile thought the business of the commissary oldito might be en-
trusted to the 'utl •of the court of sessiou, and innitatrespect
rertel g"
le
to him that
from me hon. gent. who had spoken before bins. It appeared
the arrangaMeni 'rehiting • to the Court of Exchequer
might he carried !fro effect; 'With respect to die articles of union
35 aPPIICOI,I :0 tile Court of Exchequer tree
•ov e object had been to pre-
era the ren• of than Go@rt to -
England, bat It 6ould not inter-
fere with justice to allow the busistrea of the Rifeltelpier to be shared
by the Court of Saision. The hen. member difitnot eorelider it right
o4.._psy fees to a Judge, but with regard to the portents:lf feat to
tficers of inferior Court., he was not prereekto•sar tkelleoltarift
:Ibuiiithed. At the same time he thought the existing shoed&
slide the subject of inquiry.
Colonel LINDSAY contended that the judges were !lidded to au
;,:on to their salaries. :He tought the salaries of istil* tarn In
bike ought to be an excitements to men of talent sad istegrity to
b,cutue candidate* for important officer.
'h. If UM was anxious tontopablie oentrito• reperty
rq'4l.A. but he could mum, on, that eocaskits that' ate increase of

the salaries of the judges was at all necessary. He agreed with the
lion. member for Westbury, that the judges in Scotland received
sufficient remuneration. He was happy to hair that reductions were
to take place ; but he wished to ask the right hon. gentleman how
those reductions were to take place ? He could not avoid protesting
against the late appointment°, the Chief Baron. He thought the Ba-
rons of the Exchequer in Scotland had business hnposcd upon them
which destroyed their judicial character. Their duties as Lords of the
Treasury in Scotland were incompatible with their judicial duties. if.
thought the Treasury had been remiss in not taking those duties
upon itself. The Scotch judges were not like the English judges.
The latter were never mixed up with public transactions ; they con.
fined themselves to the duties of their courts ; but the judges in
Scotland, as he understood, were concerned in most public institu-
tions : lie found them commissioners of charities, gaols, bridges,
and other matters unconnected with their judicial duties. A learned
judge in Scotland had been eulogised for reading 74,000 pages is a
year ; that did not amount to more than 70 pages a day. lie could
not consider that any labour for the salary. He himself read, upon
the average, more than 70 pages, and received no salary whatever
(A laugh.) His hope was, that government would not lose sight
of economy. They had made an excellent beginning, and he trusted
they would not call for more money to make good their intended
arrangements.
Mr. Secretary PEEL could not help thinking the lion. member
who had just complained of the pursuits of the judges in Scotland
had looked at those learned persons with a fastidious scrutinizing eye.
The honourable member bad charged them with the serious offence
of devoting themselves to charitable purposes. He was glad the
honourable member had nothing more criminal to allege against
them. All the honourable member could find to prejudice the mo-
tion was the fact that these judges joined their fellow-citizens in
promoting good works and charitable practices. The honourable
member said, in that respect, they differed from the English judges.
It however appeared by the Bed Book that the remark was not
quite correct. found in the General Lying-Inn Hospital, that
Mr. Justice Parke and Mr. Justice Gaselee were Presidents of that
Institution.

Mr. 111/MS—Honorary.
Mr. Secretary PEEL—Honorary I That would be worse than
actually becoming patrons of a charitable institution, but he knew
Justice Parke to be an active promoter of good and charitable institu-
tions. In the Foundling Hospital there were six Directors, and
Lord Tenterden, Mr. Justice Parke, and Mr. Justice Gaselec, were
three of the number.

Mr. HUM E said be should go further, and prove that the Judges
were members of select vestries.

Mr. Secretary PEEL considered the honourable member's
mode of answering arguments and facts a little extraordinary.
When he proved that the honourable member's charge against
the Scotch Judges was unfounded, he was met with a statement
' that the Judges in England belonged to select vestries ; but
the charge against the Scotch Judges, so far front being a
censure, must induce the house to entertain the highest opinion of
them. Was it not honourable to them to be found aiding their
fellow-citizens in the establishment of valuable institutions both with
respect to learning and charity ? There was at that time a com-
mission in Scotland making inquiry into academical studies, and
what could there be in the performance of the duties of such a
commission to disqualify even the judges ? The right hon. gentle-
man considered it highly honourable to them. As the measure
proposed by the Lord Advocate was not before the house, hs should
reserve his remarks upon it until the roper time for discussion, and
more especially so as he had another matter to introduce.
r. II UM E explained.
Sir C. FORBES thought the proposed measures would not be
well received in Scotland. if these reductions were to take place in
Scotland, his hope was that the same measure of justice would be
dealt out in England. An English Judge and a Scotch Judge
should stand on the same footing in point of salary. It would not
be consistent to give Scotch Judges 2,0001. a.year, and an English
Judge 5,6001. Nothing could be more honourable and creditable to
the Scotch Judges than the manner in which the judicial duties had
been discharged.
Mr. J. MAXWELL said these reforms had been proposed with
the consent of all the intelligent lawyers in Scotland, and he be-
lieved the public would own themselves indebted to the government
for the introduction of them.

The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said it was with pleasure he
had heard his learned friend introduce these measures. With re.
spect to salaries, they ought to have such a remuneration as would
induce the very best men at the bar to become judges, and devote
all their time to the duties of judge. He thought the commissary
court might be put an end to with great advantage to the public.
Upon the whole he approved of the propositinn submitted by his
learned friend. With respect to the lob! chief baron of Scotland,
he was sure the house would support the appointment of that learned
judge, and that no blame could attach to the government for that
appointment. Desirous of seeing all the institutions of Scotland
put on the best footing, he could not avoid asking his learned friend,
what was the cause of so many appeals coming from Scotland to the
House of Lords ? It was an important matter to ascertain what
occasioned the increase beyond all proportion of appeals from
Scotland.
Mr. R. GORDON thought the interest of Scotland would be pro.
moted by the removal of undue patronage and the introduction of
necessary reforms. He had every reason to believe that the measure
of the learned lord would give general satisfaction to Scotland.
• The LORD ADVOCATE in reply, said he should be ready to,
attend to the recommendation of the learned Solicitor-General on the
subject of appeals. The difference between the Scotch and English I
law had occasioned the increase of appeals. The knowledge of
that difference gave the parties a desire to appeal.
The question was then put, and leave given to bring in the bill.

REDUCTION OF 'TAXES.
hlr. ROBINSON rose, pursuant to notice, 0 move a resolution
for the reduction of taxes, but the lateness of the hour rendered it
impossible to do justice to the subject; the hon. member therefore
postponed his motion.

FORGERY.

Mr. PEEL said he would not have persevered in the motion of
which he had given notice, at that late hour, if it did not refer to
an important subject, which he was anxious to sec embodied into a
legislative measure in the course of the present Session. The sub-
' jest he was desirous of directing the attention of the house to was
' the simplification and amendment of the laws relating to the
crime of forgery. Befote he described the precise object of his
Bill, be would briefly notice the existing state of the law. Ori-
ginally, there was no statute law respecting forgery. Up td the
reign of Queen Elizabeth It was only punishable under the cons.
mon law ; and it was not until the sth year of Elisabeth that a
statute was passed, which, however, did not inflict the punishment
of death—imprisonment for life, forfeiture, the pillory, branding,
and the lots of ears, were, up to that period, and by that statute, the
penalties annexed to the crime of forgery. It was not until the reign
of William 111. that death was attached' about the period when the
Bank of England was first established. In that state the law re-
mained until the reign of Geo. 11. embracing only the case of for-
gery on the Bank of England. In 1728, however, the forgery of pro-
missory notes and billsofexchange Was made capital ; owing,no doubt,
to some great forgeries perpetrated about that time, which the house
would find detailed at length in the State Trials. The case 'to
which he alluded pm:dollar), was that of a reran), named Hale,
who had forged upon a member of the house of commons, named
Gibson. flubasquendy, as the public departments extended, and
business became more complicated, statutes were accumulated upon
statutes, until at length they arrived at rash a magnitude, and the
'punishment of death was 'inflicted in so many and such various
instances, that Judge Blackstone observed, in his " Commehti-
ries," that there was hardly a forgery committed, with intention
to defraud, whether upon a real or fictitious person, which was
not made a capital crime. (Hear, hear.) The result of these pro-
oetdingi was to place on the statute hook no less than 120
statutes relatiag to that single crime.—(Hear, hear.) They freight
'all be divided into two general heads. The first, those which re-
lated to general and public concerns ; the second, those which
related to official and departmental concerns. Under the first
of those heeds he would enumerate forgeries of the Great Seal,
of the Privy Seal, of the Sign Manuel, bills of exchange, pro-
missory notes, deeds, bequests, and all instrument tt affecting
the sueeestion of property. Under the second head, the official
and departmental, might be included all decuinenta con-
netted with the Navy and the Army, the Custome,_, the Ex-
cise, the Post-office, and Greenwich or Chelsea Holpitals—
every Act relating to which contained some enactments on the sub.
ject of forgery. In attempting, then, to consider what course was
to be pursued, he hit thete were not' Many difficulties to be
Overcome with reference to the geental and public securities which
were transferable and negociable, btu that thete ware very great
difficulties in the way when they tame to deal with the official
and departmental. To take, for instance, of the latter disk,
the Act relating to the lend tax. In that Act there were tad
hundred separate clauses, although only one of theta Mated
to forgery, but then chit clause, the 186th overrlded
and retfened to the whole of the other clauses; aild expressly db-
elates the penalty affixed to the crime of fornfitg the doeuntsitts'
referred to in the preceding clauses. In the same mender
the nevi pay set contained twenty douses; anti the clause Mating
to the forgeries of orders foe positions and other dominant; Ishis
to all clauses contained in the act. If, therefore, he merely took
out the forgery clause,. and did not alter the while of thit'ittc
he did nothing in the way of consolidation of the law of hr.
try, and left the offences unprovided
,for. Now he proposal' to
'leave t 6 nut department the task of revising and altering
acts cannedted With it. Zhe customs had three hnoiltedeel
slaty !Wheeled with that' department, and they bad ahead,
sedated' Mal to die number- of fen.. The stamE offise we Lee.
otgetr In the Able talk. Th navy pay oiliati sod those
Lonneettd AitWthc hapitillofine ettgagod in the same task; and he
lieurdstitat in atsliort-tithe die whole of dispels seladag to Ahern
Would be reduced into a very small compass. Hs proposed thin to

31r:
the rig

repeal all the acts which inflicted a capital punishident for letscry,
whether the offence be cheer Wilk or departmental, and to
tame a certain description of ofFebc4.4 for which, and no other,
the punishment of death was to he it flicted. Of the 120 statutes
to which he had alluded, 81 ibflictod the punishment of death.
The bill he proposed would contain only four clauses, sad
in them he proposed to col lidate the whole statute law re-
lating to forgery. it would coutniv in one clause a distinct enu-
meration of all forgeries 11:e which the punishment of death
was to be iefl:eted, whether the olre”ce was committed ea ;' • general
or the departmental class ; and the act would, therefore, consolidate
dole of the laws rel.:C.lg to forgery In all public and ptivate
affairs. lie ils..tight I: a most important object to diminish, as
mach as possible. the number of offences to which the
punishment of death had been attachtd. He had, indeed, no
u-sitation in avowing, that he was a strong advocate for the
mitigation of capital punishments. (Hear, hear, hear.) He
wished to remove, in all cases where it was practicable, the
punishment of death ; for it was impossible to conceal from our-
selves, that capital punishments *ere more frequent, and the Cri.
minced Code more severe, on the whole, in this country, then
in. any other country in the world. ft was better, however,
to proceed cautiously, so as not to embarrass their judicial functions,
in the event of any increase of crime taking place, and that in.
crease being'attributed to the laxity of punishment they had intro-
duced. They had, however, both reduced the number of offences
for which death was inflicted ; and that punishment had also, in
all cases, been more sparingly applied. On a comparison of the
number of executions in London and Middlesex, in time of war
and peace; it appeared that they were much more numerous in
time of peace. Whether it was that dishonest and profligate
persons were carried off by the demands of war, or that the
quantity of employment was greater for all, it was impos-
sible to say ; but the fact was so, as the return sufficiently
proved. In the seven years of peace which succeeded the
year 1783, although the number of the population was less and the
number of crimes less, yet the executions were-much more numerous
than at any former or succeeding period. The executions in the
seven years amounted to 378, or 56 on an average each year. In
1785, there were 97 executions. In 1787, 92 executions. And now,
taking the seven years from 1816 to 1822 both inclusive, the execu-
tions were only 192, or on an average of 27 each year; and in the
last seven years, from 1822 to 1829, there were only 122 executions
making an average of 17 each year, or about one-third of the execu-
tions of 1784. He would now proceed to state the offences on which
he proposed to remit the punishment of death. The great principle to
which he adhered was to confine that punishment to the forgery
of negociable and tranfcrable securities, and to every thing
which represented money. Ile might add to them the forgery of
the Great Seal, the Privy Seal, and the Sign Manual. He should
also add the forgery of wills of personal property. In documents of
that kind no witnesses were necessary, and as they were generally
not produced till the death of the parties, and might therefore be
made the instruments of great dereption, and cause great injury to
families, he had thought it right with regard to them to retain the
capital punishment. lie added to these all false entries relative
to Public Stocks. All forgeries of promissory notes—all frau-
' dulent attempts to procure moneys-all forgeries of the notes
of the Bank of Englend—in fact, all documents represent-
ing money, or which came under the denomination of
negociable or transferable securities. In the cases where
lie remitted the punishment of' death, he was confident there would
be much difference of opinion as to their propriety, and that some
persons would be inclined to suppose he had not gone far enough,
and others much too far ; but he was of opinion that there would be
more security in that course, and that a great deal of good might be
done by the increased caution which these exceptions would introduce.
He proposed, therefore, to except fiver the punishment of death all
forgeries of receipts for money and goods— all issuing of forged
stamps, or forgeries of stamps--all attempts to defraud by forged
onlers—all fabrications of bank paper, that is, the paper on
which notes are stamped—all forgeries of deeds and bonds, and
every document which did not come under the class he had
named, and which were not negociable or transfereble securities.—
Fur these offences death was now very rarely inflicted, and he was
ready to admit that it ought not to be inflicted. After quoting the
opinion of the Committee of 1819, in support of the position that
the threat of death, without its constant infliction, tended to defeat,
rather than promote, the end in view, the right honourable gentle-
man eulogised Lord Bacon, who contended, in his works, tOr the
principles he now asserted ; and having adverted to the won-
derful sagacity that great man displayed, he expressed his
surprise that any persons in authority could have perused
his reeommendationa, and left it to the present day to carry them
into effect. He confessed he never heard the name of Lord Bacon
without feeling the force of those lines of Cowley, which he thought
very preferable to those celebrated verses of Pope, in which he de-
scribed him as at once the greatest and the meanest of mankind.
He did not recollect more than the last couplet of the verse of Cow.
ley, which he believed ran thus—
" And from the mountain top of his exalted wit,
He law the promised land, and chewed us it."

—(Hear, hear.) Before making his present proposition, he had
referred to the bill of 1821, which had been read a third time
in that house, but did not pass the other, and he found that
there was no very material variation in the principle of the two
measures. He had also referred to the code Napoleon, and he also
found that there yes no very material variation in the principle of
116 proposition and that of the code Napoleon. There was one pens.
liar season for being cautious in their advances towards the midge.
titre of the punishment of forgery. It was an oftbnce chiefly core.
mined by persons of ability and information, and whose ability and
information frequently gave them the means of committing it to
great extent. For instance, in the case of Fauntleroy, the for.
genies which he committed amounted to above four hundred
thousand pounds. If the capital punishment were entirely re.
mined, some secondary punishment must be substituted. Now,
however extensive the crime of such a man as Fauntleroy,
be (,Hr. Peel) was quite sure that if such a person had been
sentenced to such a punishment as two years' hard labour on
the public roads, the sympathy of the public would soon have
been cached at seeing him degraded to the condition of associating
With the commonest and vulgarest criminals. if he had been sent
to New South Wales,
.such a man in that agony would have
found that transportation was the slightest punishment that could
have been inflicted on him. Looking at these and other considers.
tions, he must deprecate the sudden and entire cessation of the
punisliniont of death (or forgery. Let the effect of the measure
which he was now proposing be watched. Desirous as they
611 were of gradually mitigatthg the severity of our criminal
axle, lie entreated the house not to load such a disposition with
She opprobrium which might be cast upon it should premature
'Meta proved injurious. Let the progress be gradual and cautious,
Sal he was confident that the object would eventually be attained.
It ought to be recollected that the number of offences to which the
present law applied was very considerable. Upon the average,
every one of the sixty-one acts which he had described compre.
beaded five distinct offences. Qf this, however, he was per.
traded, that the mitigation of the punishment would diminish
the present facilities which the offender had of escape. It would
insure the conviction Of the offender. There were offences con.
'fleeted with forgery which the canting law did not touch. One,
shad that a very great one, was the forging of acceptances of
individuals on foreign bills of exchange. He doubted if any
peaky whatever attached at present to such a crime. It was
Ilia intention, however, to remove that doubt, by conipre.
bending the offence in the provieiona of his bill. There were
several other offences, the punishment of which was at least
doubtful. If an Ruglish person dying at Paris made a will, and
imother will was *forged, that offence ought to be subjected to
the saute punishment as the forging of a will in this country.
He meant, therefore, to propose that it be enacted, that when.
ever a document of thht nature was executed, the punishment
of
forging it should be the same as if it had been executed
its this country. He proposed also to remove a great huffier.
feclion in the law, by proposing to alter the la* of venue; and to
&peuse with the necessity of proving the place where the forgery
Asseonimitted, provided the feet itallf were proved. He was
to trespass so long on the attention of the? ouse ; but be it=
importance of the subject would he Ms apology. The Vet be&
gent. here briefly recapitulated the objects as they regarded forge%
ahich his bill contemplated. Connected with the law of forgery wed
the low of coining. It was his intention to 'tropic the consolidation
FA' all the laws having reference to coining, std to mitigate the
ltiw with respect to capital punishment, as it affected one
eirence in the arme manner ite he proposed to mittpte ft
at it afrected the other. Should tiesc Wile pass daring the ,preassa
session of parliainent, little would remain to be done in the coma&
dation of the criminal law. He bed been encouraged toirce
sue abs
course which he was pursuing by the fact that in no sin instance
had what had hitherto been done proved injurious. A though so
litany statutes had been repealed by his former measure, no evil
consequence, whateVei Mid resulted. He could not conclude
Without repeating his deep obligations to the two gentlemen
Idiom invaluable assistance he had obtained in the .preparation of
Ms measure. (Hear, bear.) The one was liir. Hobboese,
Oho, having fulfilled the duties of Under Secretary oh Stile
for mead pate with great teal and ability, had retired into private
life; retaining Me disposition' be serviceable to the public. The
other wee his hon. friend Mr. Orepon, whaled aid Mkt been Miejt
imaserial. Nothing could exceed the saki of that gentleman in'aii
;desk ; and to him and to Mr. Holdontee the country ass greatly
for their persevering exertions. The right hon. get lit Mill
conbliihlea byg asking. leave to being in a bAI to emend the la*
to
r. SIM ON took-the oFahlty, espetiefelink
hrable gentleman pot been inland to* (utile',
eas satisfactioneguath*icit be had Belled, to tbe
t t leOltot)tublo ' 0%16141'114"i:156in ,55
so doe; y indebted fort ire tent thi erfonhtft
It was a vetch which had given Idol more gratification than any

which had ever fallen from the right honourable gentlenev:. Still,
however, he lamented that the right honourable gentleman had not
gone further; apprehensive, as he was, that the law of forgery, evert
after it bad passed through the right honourable gentleman's bands,
would retain too much of the ferocity which belonged to vs ori-
ginal character. What gratified him most was to see that the
enlarged and enlightened mind of the right honourable gentleman
was turned to the subject; persuaded a, he was that the more the
right honourable gentleman considered it., the more lie would be.
come convinced that excess of punishment defeated its own object.
If he thought that the right honourable gentleman meant to s:sp
here, he should deeply regret it ; but he was happy to hear lilac
hold out the expectation that this was but the earnest of future pro-
ceedings of a similar character. He had been desired by his
honourable arid leaned friend, the member for Evaresborougii,
to express his regret that he was unable to attend the present dis-
cussion. It had been hit honourable and learned friend's ia-
tendon to move the abrogation of capital punishment in all to-es
forgery. How far his hon. and learned friend would.penevel 2 '•.
that intention after the proposition of the right hon. gentletnun, 11,.
(Mr. Buxton) did not know. His hon. and learned friend had also
contemplated a sweeping enactment, abrogating tl:e punishiaeot
death in all cases but murder and attempt to murder How f..r his
honourable and learned friend would now pirsevere in that prliosi-
tion, he knew

Mr. LENNARD also expressed the great satisfaction with a hich
he had listened to the right hon. gentleman. At the sante time, b.:
regretted that the right hon. gentleman had not gone further. II •
did not. however, distinct the right hon. gentleman, and therefore
looked forward with hope to a future petiod when more would be
done. The right hon. gentleman had spoken of the difficnlty of fix-
ing on a secondary punishment as an obstacle in the way deb.:lbis.
ing the puni hment of death. Now, although hard labour in the cotta: •
try might tot be a fitting punishment, he did not see why haul
labour in the West Indies or other Colo:des might not be o.—
In his opinion, the fear of it would operate more tffettually t.
deter front the commission of crime than the fear of capital punish:-
inert. Among other things, the coutnry was greatly indebted •
the right hon. gentleman for this, that he had relieved the quo.' ie.,
of the mitigation of the penal code from the odium of beipg
dered a party quextion. He (Mr. Leonard) remembered the time
when every proposition similar to that of the tight hon. gentlenet.
was considered to he made in hostility to the government and 1: e
laws. The right hon. gentleman had the credit of having destroy;
all such prejudices.
Mr. S. RICE, entertaining the sante feelings which had been ex-
pressed by his honourable friends alto had preceded hint, could not
remain entirely silent on an occasion so interesting to Isumaisity
and the public good. Ile thought that tile ,::.ode which the right
Lon. gentleman had adopted was very ingtnititi, and was well cal.
culated to diminish tiie obstacles in the way tat the attainment os
his object. For his exertio: s the right honourable gentleman would
receive that mot t gratifying reward, the approbation and applause
of every man in the country, whose approbation and applans •
were valuatle. He hoped, however, that the right honour.
able gentleman would attend to the departmental bills as well
as to that for which he had that evening moved. While,
however, he admitted the great obligators which the country ow.el
to the right lion. gentleman for what he had already done, and while
he was anxious no: to urge hint bcyord a wholonnic sliced, being
satisfied, on the contrary, that to outrun Ole public feeling, or to
create an alarm out of doors, would be most pernicious to a system
which could be advantageously supported only by public opinion--
I he regretted that theright hon. gent. hiitl not at once determined to go
farther. But although the right hon-gent. had postponed the consult,.
mation for whfch he (Mr. Spring Rice) wished, he was persuaded
that he hod not postponed it indefinitely ; but that his object was
to approach it by degrees and 'with caution. On one point, how-
ever, in the proposed measure, he would take the liberty of remark-
ing. The right hon. gentleman proposed to retain the capital pu-
nishment as applicable to the forging of promissory notes and bilfs
of exchange. Now in his opinion, bills of exchange and promis-
sory notes stood on different grounds ; and however grave the of-
fence of forging bills of exchange, It was not to be compared to the
offence of forging promissory notes, which parsed at once, and with-
out difficulty, from hand to baud. He coefessed, therefore, that
he should think the right lion. gentleman's bill more perfect if it
removed capital punishment from the offence of forging bills of ex-
change He wished that the discussion had conic on earlier, that
he might have entered more into the question.
Mr. Alderman THOMPSON-would not acknowledge any dif-
ference in offences for forging bank notes and bills of exchange.
Immense sums were employed in London in the discount of bids.
and every protection ought to be given to them against forgery.
Mr. TRANT regretted that the total abolition of the punishnu nt
of death hid not been proposal, and he was sum that the measur;
of the right hum. gentleman would not meet the wishes of the coon.
try. Were he on a Jury, lie would commit the minor offence of
perjury rather than hang a fellow-creature for the trifling offences
for which the law now sentenced him to death.

Mr. MARTIN thought, that if the punishment of death wkre
abolished, it might be done gradually.
The SOLICI'fOH-GENERAL was sorry if the measure of his
right honourable friend should be construed into a preliminary for
'abolishing the punishment of death. Whatever might be the opi-
nions of the enlightened persons, the country at large was not pre.
wed for the abolition of capital punishments. If the measure was
found to work well, then the house might go a little further.
Mr. BENSON thought the measure went as far as public sensi.
ment would admit.
Leave was then given to bring in the bill.
Mr. MOORE then obtained leave to bring in a bill to extend to
Ireland the provisions of 38 Geo. 111. for the due administration
of assets.

31r..Secretary PEEL laid on the table of the house the Conven-
tion of commerce and navigation between Great Britain and
Austria.

Mr. Secretary PEEL then brought in the Bill fur amending the
law relative to Forgery—Read a fint time, and ordered w be read
a second time on the 28th of April.
Mr. DAWSON brought in a Bill for transferring the 4 per tent.
Annuities, which was read a first and second time.
The other Orders of the Day were then kettled, and at Thirty.
five Minutes past Two the Lieuseodjassed.
At the Ckuitlebar assizes, which commenced on Wed-
nesday afternoon, the most important trial is that of Mr. Michael
anders, of the county Limerick, for the wilful murder of his wife.
The life of the prisoner is insured to a large amount, having for.
Burly held large tracts of land.
No less than 9,636 individuals were brought before
the Glasgow police-court, duffing the last year, on charges of being
drunk and discrderly ! There are WOO licensed public-houses in
Graegow.
The Hull Advertiser states, that 8,000 persons, many
Of them rich, and thereat active, intelligent, and industrious farmers
and merchants, are about to emigrate to Australia.
• A letter-carrier belonging to the Poit-office, in Live, -
pool, is now in custody, on a charge of havirig stolen a letter, eon.
Wining a remittance to the amount of nearly 6001.
TIIE MARQUIS OF DONEGAI.L V. STA N Inso
GkAnY, ESQ.— At the Antrim Asaires, ion Sitrieday, lle.'Staples
rose and said, that he was authorised by Mr. Grady to mate', behalf
Of himself and his son, that a much more ample agokogy
.weal now
hired than bid been made by Sir 8. Idaf. and that the conduct of
Mn, cli, bad arisen entirely from misconceptioa.. When Counsellor
StaPles had concluded, Counsellor Gilmore rose and said, that
the illatquis of Donegal! Went never actuated by any vindictile
&ling towards Mr. Brady, end was only influenc..d by a due re.
Find to the bocpur of his family ; that the apology was sufficiently
ample, and fteely accepted by the Mrrquia of Donegall, with the
thaderstanding that the record should never he brought down again.
The judge expreised his high satisfaction at the manner the affair
had tenoinated, and fn all disputes where highly respectable faMilies
wen Interested, those &Stirs were much better settled out of ciiurt.
DERTR uvrivE Fi it E.—Sbanloth Cottage, near Trim,
k•tisti residence of Westby Perceval, Pte. wai destroyed by fire en the
morning of Monday last. Mr. Perceval had a most miraculous es.
.nape, he was actively engaged in removing some articled, and was
teeth to go into the parlour, the ceiling and roof of which in a n:o.
spent fell in with a tremendous cash ; nothing was to be hilted out.
rside but the most piteous cries and lamentations of his Ferrante, an 4
ethers : imagine the Jay and gladness that took possetsion of every
lidividual on seeing Lim come out safe from another part of the
louse. The fire was accidental.
The inhabitants of Fet:er.-Ihne have liii so& di, s
past been subiebted to a rilsance to which' the prompt attention .of
the City authorities should be dtieciekt, in,,order iltat 41K pub:4i
health may not be Mimed: Fir along tiiiie pin burials have been
perfianted in the vaults below Eliniliapid, in Fettcr.lane, and there
are at present many Inat.drcd .co s which are phapy Airleovercd
with'eafth, the bodies being in d. Tint singts of acompositi.m.
ViTy recently it has been ellaceivend ti at the aster, tither from
'springs or.othkr anises, has flowed, ii,,o, thf nate. 4..4417 of two .
suite there was not less thilitliree.feet'of water lo the vitills, which,
from Its remaining 'timpani. semitried the .most. noisitisie elthisla •
that c-n ,II eradhly he torweived. . hiJnhaltitaetsiresi dina An thitt
Ate vicinity of the (+a " • WCTC cOdiffilled to' reeit theft •
iceds
sad dozorelootd; Ansi. ' Ma was the:stssieliMat is
ly possible to trans business. Tha, auiyaaat tot obr
-.wed by' its befog found alUstilutily nets nary to pomp out tutor
:Water i.:eittl the heetekd at "Ails "1......_,Nt -14 Pliatillill,..l.:'.
but cannot be fulewite/Egex
esttairdri
adlriv. ..
rCity'aittstyat sealittAPD- •
man I°l%ol, bat.% the /10440”..1144. itilbilaA std Ana tit.,
ikal.jt
,two of the Catantoo Coumu,...also atter-de and forttd the nuisience
eitesadlaity geed. It. i: ikrid itlif lino ea'sli 'tett raft be t Nen
to plesrp thecomittpwy of 4i s, IPOINOCS% 5A%;411 dean 4Ve4hit;l4
I„4„lefice of hot smslise., it is mem iil.r; irotstle that tvelovia
would Le engendered. ash eh, in the densely , rowitd state of 'corr.,
lane, roust.be productive of a great swifter r.f laurel% We.

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