The Sun.
London, England, 1818-04-28 00:00:00

BPEACH nE PRIMEGE.

Mr. WYNNE Moved tit; thu Wpnit of the
Committee of Privileges on the case of Thomas
Fergusson be ruad, which being done, lie then
moved that 't tie said Thomas Fergnsson had been
proved, by, writing, and sending the said letter,
to have thAde a corrupt attempt to inlet leie in the
purity of Election,
.and had, thereby been guilty
of a-high breach 'of the privileges of this House.
The Motion being agreed to,
Mr. WY,NNE
.said, his next' Motion wonld- be;
as directed by the Committee, " That the said
Thomas Fergusson be committed to Newgate"—
Undoubtedly this was not all that the House was
bound to-do in jealous regard to the, freedom of
the Election of its. Members. The Hon. Gentle--
man here Went into a
,statement of the, evidence
that had appeared before the.Cortimittee„ and
Stated the laws in 'such cases, quo of which was,
that if any person so detected in corrnption'sbould
hold any situation I.l,nder his. Majesty's-Govern-
ment, he should be removed front his."
ofiSce, ren-
dered incapable of seri:ing,,bii,.Wiiesty again, and
be fined in the.penally of 1001. :He, should feel it
necessary to briug the subject: . ngain tinder thy
'consideration of the !loose ; and the prOper time
would he When the , Committee. had concluded
their ingoiry, and given their opinions embociied
in their Report. For himself,,he thought it' would
he more consistent if one' punishment were in-
flicted in all such eases,, and that Would he
the removal of the guilty' per Son front any office
lie might hold, whether great or small. lie should
now merely move that the said Thomas Fergosson
be committed to Newgate, and be should give
notice of its being his farther intention to move
that he should be removed froM his office of Sur-
vey,or of Taxes.

The Motion ►vas agreed to.
EDUCATION.

Mr. BRottGnAm, on moving the Order of the
Day for the committal of the Bill. appointing a
Commission to inquire into the Administration
of the Funds appropriated to the purpose of Cha-
ritable Education, took occasion to observe, that
from no discussion having taken place upon this
Bill, he understood a great deal of misconception
prevailed abroad respecting its character and ob-
ject. It vas said to propose 'something likely to
disturb all public charities, god to interfere most
improperly with the management of charitable
funds.. But this Wa3 an egregious misreorest.,,A.
tion : for it was the object of this gill not to inter-
fere with the management, but to prevent the mis-
management of funds intended for chat it able pur-
poses. .ItWitS also an error to state that this Bill meant
to interfere in any degree with private funds, for it
related solely to funds designed for public charity,
and which funds were, in fact, to all intents public
property.—But-the plan of the proposed Com-
mission was framed according to the precedents of
former Commissions, and especially of those not
long since instituted by Parliament for inquiring
into our Naval and Military Departments. Care
was indeed taken to render the Commission
effective for its object, while every precaution was
adopted to guard against.any irrelevant or im-
proper inquiry.
Mr. CANNING said, that from the views stated
by the Learned Gentleman, he would decline to
propose any alteration in the Comtuittee upon this
Bill ; but lie would not hold himself preeluded
from proposing hereafter such alteration as might
appear to him necessary in the constitution, ex:
tent, or duration of the proposed Commission.
Lord FOLKESTONE was glad the attention of the
House had been called to tile Bill, the effects of
which would, in his opinion, be much greater than
was originally supposed. He was surprised, how-
ever, at the exemption which the .Universities
were to enjoy from its operation, and thought
that it was a kind of insult to those Learned
Bodies ; as if the mode in which they had admi-
nistered the trusts reposed• in firm would not
bear investigation. He hoped ttat the name of
Mr. Baring, a Gentleman of Berkshire, who, by
his praise-worthy industry, had discovered that
not a fourth of the money appropriated in that
county to the chat itable purposes contemplated in
the Bill bad been included in the returns laid ou
the Table of the House, would be inserted in the
purposed commission. ,
Mr. BATHURST contended that the Bill went
much farther than was originally contemplated;

1 in
and that the inquiry which WAS comprellen-er
#
its provisions into the administration as
vosities, and the other- great public institooo,
for education, ought not to he eotereek.l""
less some'strong case of abuse weie t
ths-
IVY, BROUGHAM, iq-e.xplanation obsr , Jets
those Abo agreed to the proem; mod ,it
was merely to commit the Bill, in order tbalde,
„might receiv-the amendments that he wag,,,,
sirons of introducing, ivith a view to ,its slin'Asfrs
(pent consideration, would -by: oo means I,l'v:
themselves to. the ultimate adoptiou ot 111e.'');
sure: He very willingly admitted tollisNoblePle: g
that the Interesi..and:character of the tlidrets:ci
would be best consulted by their beiog iocluis
in the investigation, arid in confirmation Of t 4-
opinion he adduced the conduct of that vener
and illustrious individual,'LoreSt. Vincent, "I',A
when at his suggestion a CoMinksion _of
tpt
Inquiry teas instituted, put in the trout oft
abuses into which that Coinmission Was t!'',(l,
quite, the abuses (if any exisrci) in the offi.:cgici
the Lords CommissiOners for executing thevets
of Lord High Admiral of-Eu4and at the _ Virsc
time when thot Noble 1?,.41 was hisnaell the
Lord of the Admiralty—an example wiTie'.;„'
rise to that succession of inquiries into the or —i,
abuSes of the public service, which bad been :if
highly beneficial to the country. An instaoc-io
the good effects of inquiry was to be tonna i"fi'leit
investigation which tun years ago ha'', t;f:
,u i sonic laCento soc alleged abuses in the
out
(ion of the Charter House, when it tiolie"
that the allegation- was almost, if not oitirel'
grouudless. -
Sir J . NEWPORT observed, that objections si
lar b d
e
to those urged against the present tneasilt- jot)
been.addbeed by Ministers against his proposirio,
for a Commission to inquire into the abases
-3tal
respect to the Fees of Courts of Jostice 1re0304
and Scotland, iit wide:, proposition Par'',3,,ifect
hid 'nevertheless accinieseed, and the goo" toe
of 'which acquiescence vtas now manitesi
Returns on the table.
Mr. PEEL admitted that the proposition to vr of
the Member alto& d been prodoetivetbe
great advantage,• but +otservrd that it WaS 11,1
form of an Address, praying that the Cro'cn
appoint Commissioners for the ptir-puse of "1 snit
the desbed inquiry. He thought the I.l""'es a
Learned Gentleman unfortunate in-addoc""-se:inni•
reason foie instituting an inquiry into the 'bd,
niStration of the -Universities, in which 0"
was alleged, the institution of a sisnilar frtlt
into the Administration of the-Charter-b°"9e.'
ivhich great abuse. had been alleged. 0 the
The Order of- the Day was then.read; —cl,7 irt
motion that the Speaker should leave the
short discussion ensued, in which Mr. 136turli'ci•
Mr. Brougham, and. Sir -3..,Newport,
paled. ASsej
The motion *as then agreed to, the 131",1)'
through rlthe Committee, - and the House "flo
resumed, the Report was received, and ottleremp
be taken into further consideration oo
The Bill, us: amended, was-ordered to be plin
LIITI
3 ;` • t •
ON FROM ABINGDON. ,on flog/
Sir CHARLES SAXTON presented-a peto
the Magistrates ,of -Abingdon, in Berkshire, v'o,,
were trustees of certain Charitable Instil
complaining Of various calumnious .t,lt
tidns that had been Made respecting -the ivat._‘
in which their trust had.bierr discharged,
Mr: BROUGHAM rqCated that svhat Ira fut-'
on that subject had beemetample.tely misrep 1
re'ed
etl,- and „contended that the petitioners 11°1 coo
-right to assume thoie misiepreseotations
)31c'e.
ing been the actual statements made in the
After a short conversation between Mr. 1 E;11,
tesley, Mr. Bathurst, Mr. Bronglsm,
IVy , Sir C.Saxtori withdrew the Petiti""•
Ou the motion of the CHANCELLOR 0f te
CHEQUER, the further consideration f t`)
011;ii Or
poll of Me Churches 13111 was postpone
morrow.
COTTON REGULATION BILL.
f
Sir R. PEEL, rose to -explain the object lace'
Bill which he had had the honour to toir°.:,bilf
He then described fie Apprentices' ".bal cor
had brought in about sixteen years 3:1", ~t"
n
reet the abuses which then prevailed ill Tie ar
Manufactories, which Bill had met wit!' ti.jose'
probation of the Government and of thid
Since that period a great change had tidiell Plat;
4
suo
in:tCotton Trade, and the business
,esOic
he
Farried on by the means probably of ten ttp
unlimber of children then employed', but wiw,e'cto4l
not being apprentices, derived no
from th,.. Act. The present Bill was fr,o;-,,Cot!,
include those Andrei., who were eatploye"
ton Manufactories
having been entered between the roasters 1,0
them. These at present low. no ,),-„tectorb nisi
lie hoped they would find T),:,.,,0rs
House. Men and apprentices in the co.'" c'„sal
ithout any formal C°'l,
sometimes
.worked fourteen hours in the d'lirtinie,
little children were obliged to work the °It"; shei'
They were thus made to do more t", 1", %sq"
strength would permit, and the conseque%, et''le
that in. a short time they beeatoe Pieti
ciated,, and incapable of hard labour. "'the
titions had been presented in favour of sign'`
One had been received from_Manchester, syotel
by thirty medical men and twenty-one °ft;
(t—
-who had no interest in the question vrh tereg
who only came forward to support the WO!
of humanity. Petitions had been receive oil fly
some masters themselves, and from alowst,r, not
respectable people in Manchester w",l4c„cose
tQ
engaged in the trade, praying the "-,n,let°:
shortenohe time of labour in cotton ma"' iso
ries, not only for.children, but for adult' 3,,,(1'tr,
the hours they were now eat
strength of both. He concluded by novlnt"ofiii4/
the House should resolve itself into a Cono
• 0/
on the Bill. til°
Lord STANLEY said, a great number of Pe, oilb
had certainly been presented in favour of Lli odi
.signed by very,respectable persons ; but," iieereo
standing these, he thought great cautti'n.tb 19
sary before the House should interfere 'citosieg;
manner of couducting the cotton than"f''cb,firo,
employed exhaos‘s 00,
He approved of the Apprentices' Billt
chi)
eit'
that was passed, it was comtnon to taite
fro distant parts of the country, withoo al
m
consent, and without that of their pare°lo'4,oll.l.
bind them apprentices where.they were. 'o'll
unknown. Many abuses had been proveJll'
existed under this system, and therefore

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(,o•
the 197;,
the I" J.
i4l

that
entlially cnnenrred in ilie• 11.-rnfttlY
only anoren-
A^t i •
i not ,
ii‘ . "e present Bill embracet
..e,„
Ow cotton ma-
c. bat all Persons employedof passing
in,ses were totally
-
;i4et°ties, .alit) thus the twoc';
of the proceed
.1 trent. He then_ tOok.a view
of the. Cot tont
.I",'gs nf Parliament. on the subject
8..
Bin his warmest
' l', gave. the Apprentices'
to anie-
-B'Probation, expressed himself anxiousbut
declared
101-
, , die the condition of the
roar, but
now under
'_")4lself unable to support the
measurewent- to interfere
cwiti4iclera ion. The present Bill
labourers' children,
ai i'. free lahour, and with free
strongly "b
i,''' therefOre he could not but most
a Pre-
''...ett
t° it, and he believed i't to be without
the ..
-•.'eriein
1-le did not deny that
.1
tradel-2-e
~, , to tinscoontry. -
with an)
fti 4 nye had the power to interfere
to the health
I,4'l,ti)nielit be fit oved to be injurious
was not a new
1 7e people ; but the cotton trade.
e to bear in mind
.:-'i-lt.atiil he called upon the' House .
and its great
I'e
latin
• I embarked in it,
ial euse capita
• stated at
Ile then ze-
etP(ltt'tice to the country,
the Bill,
.1--,,e,4t length his objections to notpresent
subject to
"4 Iliajmain~ . .
the
Ai that
great
cotton trade than
er hardships in the co
were exposed
cliildr.
ti, others
to. t.ii employed in man,Bill did not go .
far
en• Tlie advocates for this
the employment in
th°4gh when they proved that
not so wholesome
e et'tton manufactories was
agriculture. They
as
111
with
prejudicial to
k ie labour connecter
-418 t
it absolutely
the
t I Prove that was health than
ath'
8" • dicial to .
more prejudicial
before
tium_ .
uanufactories,
......
14".ityment in most other
' , ~...
the present "ill
eo,linterference contemplated ol',utt the sittla-
lit: (I he just_ified. He shin"'
manufactories, in
i
ec,lo' those employed in lass-manufactories,
was much
ties, end • the' weaving b 1
• wh
'4114
. iii
- lof the persons .
11 e flePloeable than ttat
who, he was
ere ei, •
i trade,
l'r elgl"4 in the cotim
• f from
substantial relit,
111' isfi-f', would derive no
into a
hw.
"?I''Prese" Bill, if it should
passchildren if the
I've 4' was to be the fate of- these :_...,rove
•'esent 1)11- .
? In order to ino
it .
...on snould 'Pass • by deprive
' ',Ell' e
begin •
the
' ,-ealth was it proposed to. of
141; frith. ' of considerable portion
14,w_ , Pirents , a
..
were at pre-
loch they
tenlfiks of the family in w •
better their situation,
A"' Maintained I Would it
f rts and nuces-
ealtit° flePtire them of the
"In
apresent able to
b,,,' of life, which they were at
of affording
rlente
Ile considered that insteaduct
1 to the dis,
tttitt it woold be likely to
I add
mthe present Bill
s,,,:'nf the poor. One object ofl e
, , people. He,
t :ie. improve the morals of "
measure would
1):1v4, feared the effect of
this
scalculated upon
by 4,lteetly the opposite of thatH .
apprehended
thit, Honourable Baroliet.
i ere it was least
rjet,"4ll would create disunioww le
and their
parents
eliiitili4ble to see it, between
led to think that
111 'le°. The child would be .
been-irnmolated by
tit Per this act he would have.,
of their
shrine
tv,,,Parents, a victim on the
Bill, as it was
INqt.Te* He then opposed this of children in
ttt lartived that the emplc,yment
i
injuri-
tiiitt,nitornionfactories
WRS
particularlyt
at by relieving
thli.:)'eEkbh, and as it W,fiS clears.t/e
their health,
it ~,''"Orn labonr, it might improv
is of sustaining
1„.,i4,"hl take from them the meads
time for re-
ceit:4--that if it would atrial'
them
it out of their
p4a:lig instruction,
it it
would
put
instead of do.
in„ in Pay for ; in short, that
(sled, it would
be' 6' "tl, as the Hon, Baronet 7",-%o„id act as a
pre,if'doetive of much evil' -`t
_...:_tills in place
1.4,11, for the erection of steam -mills of
thtat-mills, and thus ruin
thefellteit to be
-his
Phu later POl these:reason3he .. ded by mov-
' 110
())He cotton
rTit,t,
as Pose the Bill, ,
_House should
r that , the
It(1Ive . 4 Amendmen.,
t day
m ittee on that tour itself into the C -,nui
Lnicimv
ori! r •
tt it •ght to offer a few
- it.,, t
.). - •fl.• He would
leords ',CP.I.LRS t notig .
Bill. ,
514
II ()I1 the principle of .this
anti he would
i,h, pon the Horise.to look_at it,
thea.y
took upon
tilltollt they passed this measure,
whole .industry of
ti p selvo, .
•' in interfere with the
kin... his side of
tie e"44trY. Though a person tan
as' a „ta„ op-
titliolle'tion was ahnost run (1(7
he'would still',
1y te, tn. the interests of human' y,
ou proceed..'
th , , ,il'e House, " Pause,- before y
h(.) had em-
fiuc.ii'',l this measure pass, thin" wTrade would
LA ''' their capital in the .Cotton
not only at,the
pre ahont them ;they wouhl look
to follow
T, P:Ilt measure, but at what wasiu.charge from
11,4 ‘vould think it necessary to I,l'
16 years nt
"bi)loy those ulho were wider
their parents
ts-
-;-, and I • thrown on lt was
t iese children
`itild h , i 'rue parish. 1' i
14,115. } them be thrown 0n,,,.
_mphiyet ii
the rtnt'e to say that if they were." '` '
themselves.. The
the
they would improve
Would
i brown
pt,i'loTi into which they would be
~
It is said that
tt,, "viii,`
them (coin doing .so. ''‘,` '
cotton mills,
Iler ill'h' of thqse employed in the
"were unfit
kr
idistoited, and that these persons
ii
a(y
,thing
la e. tine "mY, fin the navy, or indee i
to be
alter If this weteArtie, the trade
.ought liy
itii erect altogether, for the alieration proposed in the
! 411, of relieving them from one, hour_,ce
or
in-.
ttr}i,tvoillii „„t he sufficient. The printeoiti(l,llol,lit
%iiteitPlee once adopted, they
ongitr
by those
~,,,o they reduced the work to he. done
_vhat thley
ii);:::l',YQci i 4 the cotton manufactories to
capableN of
Nu., ' 'oPpose pet sons of Oteir age
have obiect.
el )""hig. He should not so much r
gnate
,It'" tkis Bill if he had considered it to . i i
°believed
3,t.itely
xvnt,
the
tin. Baronet ; but he
who
1"211' ()/.'ell to be in sOme measure its parent,uf
labour
ItCtee'ntynned, that though the 1)017
i would, be
t diminished, the labour perforn This he
if,l'hil
tt..or 1 to t+ hat was done at present.
~e,
it' Laseelles) could not understand.) l-tin.
ret"re, called upon the House to stopand
sub-
jee,''' whether what they had
heard
on
this
lained
„ were true. Ile believed the "di' cninV really
t',!'llilur the present system, had been gm.
act
tiirrKerated ; and if the House wished, ~, in-
stil Y on this occasion, he thought they wom"
ee ll'e an inquiry to ascertain what they' really
.ie
11,1 i before they suffered the Bill to Pass._
_l-...,
it"n interest in this question ‘vbatever, tti,
lit•le'l tig Ilinch as any man could do to remedy)ted
ti,,-„vils (and that there were some he. doubted e
iliev) of the present system, but he did not
as to
i4i thete
was a"Y Illii)g in it so. Wrong
IfY ii •
He c ie adoption of a measure like the present.'.
it
t "Ily opposed the Bill because he thought
a 1„,.,.,
x-parte
t;"1,1 be unjust to pass such a law on e
it '''lence. He should vote against this Bill going
t,
in 4 Cori He
ouVess it were on au u,oh-rst au 1
i g thm tile subject of it should be refryred to a
‘...011 •
otintee up stairs.
.4-1‘ 1 i
iir. PEEL considered' the Noble Lors.a VV-10 hat

just sat doyen, to have acted the most nianly part,
by coming _forward to state his!seniiments on this
measure without disguise, and he was perfectly
satisfied, that in the course he had taken, he was
solely actuated by humanity. He, however,
could not think that the Noble Lord was justified
in objecting to this Bill, because Mr. Owen was
supposed to have been concerned in bringing it
forward. Whether that Gentleman was concern-
ed in it or not, was a matter of indifference to
him, and he called upon the House not to reject
judicious Measure becanse it might have the mis-
fortune to be supported by an indiscreet advocate.
The Noble Lord had said that he objected to this
Bill being passed on ex parte evidence, and he
therefore wished the subject to he referred to a
Committee up stairs: 'He (Mr. Peel) would limit
his defence of it to ex parte evidence, to that fur-
nished by the opponents of the Bill, and on that
he thought it would not be difficult to convince
the House that, if, without contravening some
went general principle, they could apply a remedy
to the existing evil,, it Waa their duty to do so.—
He considered that he had two class-es to reply
to—those who admitted there was an evil to re-
medy, but were fearful of the principle on which
the Bill was founded—and, in the second place,
those who were not afraid of the principle, but who
considered there was no evil to remedy. To the
first, he replied, that in ten thousand cases connect-
ed with commerce, remedies had been supplied to
particular evils without prejudice to general prin-
ciples. He shoWed that in the cotton trade there
were pecularities which called for peculiar mea-
sures; that children were obliged to work the
same hours as men, and that in manufactories
where the average time of working did not exceed
12 hours, trout accidents which stopped-the mill,
they lost a few hours, which they were obliged to
fetch tip by " extra time, and this imposed upon
them occasionally the necessity of working 15
hours in one day. The business, besides, was
carried on in an heated artnosphere. In ihe fitter
branches, he believed, it was necessary that the
body should be kept in such a teinpelature that
thestbreads would adhere to -the fingers of the
work-people. In 60411 e, the atmosphere was pol-
luted by small flying particles of cotton, and this
evil, though guarded against in some manufactb-
ries, could-not be prevented in all. The numbers
emploied in the cotton trade was another of its
peculiarities. In Manchester alone it appeared
that no fewer than 11,600 children were employ-,
ed in it. The numbers engaged in it made the
interference of Parliament necessary. But then
it was-said the effect of this Bill would be to create
disunion between parent and child, This, how-
ever, was not likely. , They-had no reason' to sup-
pose the parents would object to it._ lt.appeared
they were willing that the, hours of labia-or-in each
day should be limited to eleven ; but .they had no
'alternative,, as the masters said they must either.
remove them altogether, tvhich they could not al-,
ford to do, or they must let them work 12 'or 14
hours,. a's the men did. The Noble Lord (Lord
'Stanley) had approved of the Apprentices' Bill,
but he '(Mr. Peel) contended that those who were
to be protected by the present measure were leas
protected by the interest of the master front the
abuses complained of than ever apprentices had
been. If the latter, from ill usage, were disabled,
they become- a charge' ons Their employers ; the
former, when sick, could be-at once discharged
and replaced by other children. This, particularly
struck hint from part of Mr. Lee's evidence, who
had 'said this measure nook.' press harder on the
manufacturer in the country than on him who re-
sided in Manchester, as the latter was " near the
market sof labour." The meaning of this was,
that. if the children in his employ tailed _ him, he
Could easily procure others from " the market of
labour." At preient lie insisted the interest of
the Masters afforded no security for the proper
treatment of the children, and if the System was
so m-tich improved as some of the'opponents of
the Bill contended it was, this made his ttegoineot
but the stronger.- He' could wish to knOw, when
'the eyes of the masters were first opened to their
true interests, whether the alteration which had
taken place bad not been made as a preparation
for an expected inquiry ? . At ll events, -it was
necessary to guard, against a recurrence IA the
evils from which it Appeared .those.employed in
the Cotton Factories had but recently escaped.—
He then entered into a statement of the numbers
engaged at different factories, and.of 'their hours
of labour, and showed, from the evidence furnish-
ed by those opposed -to the:Bill, that humanity '
demanded that a measure.like that now before the
House should receive the sanction of Parliament.
Even what n as said of the measures taken to give
these poor children education proved to his mind
the hardships to which they were subjected. He
learned with disgust that they were not sent to
school, to receive that instruction which might
raise them above the machine at which they-wotk-
ed, till they had been exhausted by 13 or 15 hours
ot-labour. ' Ile wished them to receive education,
but it gt levet' and disgusted him to find, that that
which ought to be a blessing was thus.converted
into a curse. He wanted no evidence. The facts
acknowledged were enough for his purpose.—
(Hear, hear, hear !)—An Hon. Member laughed
when he said he wanted no evidence. Did 'the
Hon. Member mean to s.ay no evidence could be
produced ? That there was no evidence before the
House ?—(Hear, bear 1)—If evidence was wanted,
he need go no farther than a petition which he
himself had the honour. to present, which con-
tained the evidence of disinterested medical metrof
the highest character, and that was quite sufficient.
Another argument which had been particularly
urged by the Noble. Lord was, that it interfered
with the principle of free labour. But there had
beet) a Bill before the douse which had inter-
fered with the principles of free labour in the
case of Chimney-sweepers--;-(Hear ! and laughter)
—and that . Bill had the support of the Noble
Lord.—(Hear !)—Others again who spoke of the
unhealthiness of Cotton Mills were answered by
some Hon. Member,,who seemed to think that of
all the healthy spots on the Nee of the globe, a
Cotton Mill was the most healthy —(Laughter.)
Indeed, if all that these Hon. Members said of
the bealthioess of, Cotton Mills were true, appli-
cation might to be made to the Legislature for
thterection of Cotton Mills, for the purpose of
t tattier and nitre effectwally providing for the
health of Llisktijesty's liege subjects.---(Laughter.)

The instances produced from the evidence 'were
certainly strong enough to
,suppott. the most on,
qualified of the assertions which' had been made
as to the healthiness of Cotton Mills. One of
the instances. was that of a Mill at Glasgow, in
which lie believed an Honourable Gentleman op-
posite (Mr. Finky) was concerned. it was given'
in evidence that the proportion of deAths in this
mill was only one out of 415.—(11ear!)—So vet y
extraordinary a sniall prripcnlion had very na-
turally excited the astonishment of the Commit-
tee, and therefore, as was to be expected, they
questioned Medical Gentlemen as :o the propor-
tion of deaths in different parts 91 the kingdom.
The evidence of Sir Gilbert Blane was, that the
most healthy .part of the .kingdom was Cardig•an-
shire, in which the deaths;were one out of 74.—
But that proportion, however small, was tour
titres greater than that of the Cotton Mill men-
tioned, which was .so .much healthier than the
most healthy part of the kingdom. In one of
Warton's, beautiful sono,:ts, which began with
these lines—

" In•what retired\and craggy cell
' " Delights the Goddess Health to dwell;" &c.
after Asking where the abode of this coy Goddess
was to he fotook—whether on Matlock—or athong
woods and streams—or on the sea shore, it would
certainly have been an extraordinary solution of
the perplexity of the Poet, if when he asked—

what dim and dark retreat '
" The coy Nymph fix'd her fav'rite seat ?"

it had been answered, that it was in the cotton-.
mill of Messrs. Finlay and Co. of Glasgow.—
(Loud larntter !)—Yet such was the evidence
respecting this mill, that its salubrity appeared six
times as great as that of the most healthy part of
the kingdom. He held in his hand Resolutions of
the cotton-spinners of AShton-under;Line, and
also of Halifax, which stated their oidniou that
it was become highly necessary to limit the hours
of labour in-cotton and other_mills. They wished,
indeed, that the number of 'touts should be treater
than that in the present Bill—for they wished the
hours of labour to be twelve. But the number
of hours was comparatiaely of small consequence,
provided it was within due limits, for they all
admitted the principle of the present Bill: This
was the last evidence which it was necessary to
mention to the House, for it was the evidence of
the party interested. With all this, then,, before
the House, it was surely enough to skew that
,jus-
tice, and humanity, and good policy, called upon
them to pass this Bill.
Mr. PHILLIPS rose to oppose the Bill. It; was
necessary for him to refer to some imputations
which had been cast-upon the opponents of the
measure before the House, as being actuated by
selfish and interested motives in opposing it. Such
imputations he must distinctly repel. If there
were in the House any man who could say that
be (Mr. Phillips), in 'any thing which-be might
say upon this subject, was actuated by any such
feelings, he felt the imputation to be so trojist,
but at the same time so unfounded,. that he would
not think it worth his while to reply to it. Much
had•been said as to the Petitions which had been
preseoterl to the House in favour of the meaa
sure: To those Petitions tro weight was, due..
He spoke with confidence, for lie knew. the arts
which had been used in procuring them, and the
mischief which they had produced. There had,
:also been much Misrepresentation as to the' mode
of employment in cotton manufactories, and to
prove this he referred to various parts of the evi-
dence. One of the proofs of the bad mode of re-
golation in factories at present was, that the pro,
portion of children front them that attended Son,
day schools was very small. He could imagine
no criterion by which to judge of the regulations
of factories better than this. The state of the
children as to health, too, had been very touch
misrepresented. To convince the Houseeof this,
he read various extracts from the Infirmary Re-
ports of Manchester. From the opinions of va-
rious mediCal authorities which he quoted, and
especially the testimony of Doctor Hardy and
Doctor Morris,of Manchester, it appeared that the
persons most liable to glandular swellings and
ulcerous diseases were weavers, and that no
class of persons weie more free from such. disor-
ders, as well as from others that, usually occur
among persons engaged in sedentary employments
and working within doors, than the children in
the Cotton Factories of Manchester. Althongh
medical men in general,and especially those of Man-
chester, were proverbial for disagreeing in their
opinion, yet in this they all agreed. And although,
when Doctors Home and Henry were asked their
opinion, they said, that although that was their
opinion, they were sure that certain others would
think -differently ; but in this they were rats-,
taken, although the others had certainly after-
wards -altered their opinions. But lie would
:pledge himself to the fact, and. he would under,
take to prove it from the evidence before the
House, that the Cotton Spinners of Lancashire
were better off—that their work was more uni-
form.their wages more uniform—their labour
tighter, than that of any other class Of labourers
in the kingdom. It was a remarkable fact,- that
during the war, although in triany.of the different
branches of manufacture the wages had varied as
much as 50 per cent. yet in Cotton Spinning
they had all along continued nearly uniform.
The Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Peel)
bad made himself very merry as to. the evi-
dence of the healthiness of the children in Mr.
Finlay's Mill, and seemed to treat it as an
'exaggeration. But it was to be considered that
the persons employed in it were of that age which
is the most healthy, and; that the employment. it-
self was healthy: There was no argument in fa-
vour of this Bill which was not founded on the
most mistaken principles. It was said that Oa
rents could not be expected to interfere of them-
serves to prevent their children frdm working a
greater number of hours than was consistent with
their health. In the discussion on the -Poor-Laws
it had-been allowed, on both sides of the House,
that parental feeling was as least as strong, or
perhaps stronger, in the loWer tanks 'than in the
higher. But now, if the. present Bill was to be
passed, it must be onthis.principle, that the force
of parental affection was so little to be trusted,
that an Act of Parliament Must be passed to en-
force it, it was not enough that Parliament
shesitld be influenced -.by no other feelings than
those of humanity. Unless humanity was guided

by justice it Would produce much mischief.
,The Legislattire could never interfere between
the_ labourer and his emphoyer, either io regn.-
biting the hburs of tabour or wages, without.
doing mischief.. Waii it really to be supposed that
Parliament must interfere .to prevent • workmen
frotn.lahouring a greater niimber -of honis than
was consistent with theii- health ? .What if, when
wages.wiae-at the low est—wheo the poor %veaver
was obliged to work sixteen hours in order to earn
just such a pittance as- would ktpport life—what
if the House had then interfered to limit the boors
of labotir-7if they ira.l old the scantily-paid :stork-
man, yon Work too 1-tie.7-you will injure your,
health—we must interfere to prevent you ;-s-if this
had been done, what' would have been the con-
sequence ? Would it not Lave been that the
miseirahle workmen would have bee;: st,rved,into
rehetliun? It teas a fact which strongly•called for
the attention of the [louse, that iii the couoty in
which there Was the Lit ge,st proportion of the pc.-
polalion einployed in eottow factories,
.the po, t.
rates were lowest. In Liincashite the poor rate
was only, 10s. 51 in the pooml, which was lower
than any other elotity in England. except Cum-.
berland, in which tiiey were only 91. 9d. iu the
pound, The propor,ion, of thcpopulati-ou i,t 11,40.-
casltire who received parochial aid was 54 per
cent. lower than in any county of
,England except
Cumberland, where it was only 5 per cent. To-re-
cur to the argument lOUIII6I on the unhealthiness.
Of the employment, he ciritended that the sona-
(ion of the Members of that liouse
more Ililileß:thy than that of any cotton spinners
in the kingdom, and that there ,were more causes
operating to impair the health of the Speaker,
than any labourer in the most ill-regulated cotton
factories.—(A laugh.)—Much had deers.-swim of
the hot air in mills, but it turned out the highest
tempersature in any of, them was nu more than
74 degrees ;_ and the evidence of •Mr. HoldswOrth
stated,. that if the temperature were -higher that;
between 70 and SO, it must injure the spinning.
But one of the greatest evils incident_to the BA
was, that it encouraged the spirit of combination
among workmen. • It was to this Very spirit that
the petitions which had been presented to the
House were to be ascribed. These,petitions were
drawn up in public-houses, by-disorderly and dis-
charged worktnen, who wished to increase the
-rate of wages, and diminish the hours if labour.
If this Bill'were carried, the principle would soon
be extended to woollen manufactories. 'l'o these,
indeed, the arguments in favour of it were more
applicable; for he helieeed they were not in
general so healthy. On the whokt, he hoped the
House would see the impolicy and injustice ef
the• measure, and would reject the Bill.
Mr. BuOTLR WILBRAHAM spoke very shortly'in.
favour of the Bill, bat urged nothing new. • :
- Mr. W. SMITH said it 'slid not, require much de.'.
tail to convince the House whether it was proper
that chilihen under ten years of age'should be
employed 15 hours a day or 12 and LI It was
not that the mere, employmenS of ebihiren was,
objected to, but that they were over-wrought.
It was a fact which appealed .in evidence, and
could not be contradicted, that the cotton-spin-
ners of Preston had egreed.sduring the discussion
.of this measure to employ
,their children only 13
hoofs a day. . •
After a few words frau') Mr: FIN LAY, Mr. t
SMITH, and Mr. 'Roar NsoN , the House- divided--4
1.76-r.going into the Cummittee .. 91
Agoitist it
IthijOrity forgoing into thetommittee —65 •
The House having resolved itself into a Corn-
mitte.e,

Mr. LAMBE was-understood to propose, on ac-
count of the late hour, that the Chairman ask
leave to_report progress, and to sit again. A de.;
sultory conversation ensued between Mr. Finlay,
Sir. J. Newport, Sir F. Burdett, Mr. Peel, Sir'J.
Mackintosh, Lord Stanley, and Sir R. Peel, who
Was not adverse to the motion, the Chairmen ob-
tained leave to report progress, and to sit agai9
to-morrow. . . • _

. ,
The Labourers'. Wages Bill was read a second time, anti'
ordered to he committed this day.
. The Report on the Saying Banks' Bill was received, and
ordered to be taken into considegution this day se'nnight.
• The Loan B►ll was read a second time, and ordered to bo
cminni4ted this day.
General HART moved for a Return and Account of all
Sums of Money charged as Contingencies on the Board of
Exeise in Ireland, from Jan. 1816 to March 1818.