The Sun.
London, England, 1820-05-26 00:00:00

COMMERCIAL TREATI ES.

The Earl of L►vexrooL observed, that ntl the
Commercial Treaties moved for by -the Nuble
Matqiie” kLausdown), with reference to his mo-
tion, had already been laid before the House and
printed he therefore thought it ~,00ktl be use-
Itas having them printed again, and be-merely
laic! Copies on the Table, with a List referring to
theca.

The Marquess of LANSDOWN acquiesced in the
arrangement suggested by the Noble Earl.

CIVIL LIST.

The Earl of Ltvetteuot. moved the Order of the
Day for second reading of the Civil List Bill.
His Lordship briefly stated the object of the Bill,
thinking it unnecessary to trouble the House, at
any length. 'rite settlement of the Civil List,
made so recently as 1816, after full deliberation,
rendered quite unnecessary any new arrangement,
his Majesty having asked for no additional sum,
alt hOl It the change in his Majesty's situation
undoubtedly caused some additional expence. It
had been objected that there was a considerable
difference in.the prices of VarIMIS articles between
1816 and the present period, which tended to
render too large the sum then voted, but indepen-
dently- of it being, in his mind, quite inconsistent
with the honour and dignity of the Crown sem-
pnlously to-enter into an examination of the prices
of common articles of subsistence, the fact teas,
that the prices of various of these articles were
actually higher now than they were in 1816.
With regard to the amount also of the Civil List,
the fact was that a more liberal provision was
made for George 11. titan for his present Majesty.
His Lordship repeated his form.er argament against
disconnecting the Civil Government altogether as
to expence trom the'person of the'Savereign, and
contended that the best plair.was that adopted in
the present Bill, which, with regard to the third
class, that of our Ministers at Foreign Courts,
their pensions, allowances, &c. rendered only the
extraordinary disbursements subject to the vote of
Parliament, whilst with regard to the general ex-
penditure of the Civil List, there was this security,
first established in 1816, that whenever ti.e
penditute fOr any one year exceeded the revenue
by 15,0001. or upwards, the whole accounts of the
expenditure of the Civil List should be laid before
Parliament. With regard to the casual revenue
of the Crown, such as- the Droits of Admiralty,
&c. there was this new provision the present
Bill—that an account of the sums received for
these revenues should be annually laid before Par-
liament ; and he was satisfied that the Droits of
Admiralty (the main 'branch of-these revenues in
time of war) would be much better administered
as they had hitherto been, titan by placing th'em
wider the control,' of Parliament, on account of
the nomerous difficulties that most unavoidably
present themselves. His Lordship concluded by
moving the second reading of the Bill. .

Lord KING maintained that there was a
studied atubignity'and perplexity in the accounts
of the. Civil List, by charging sums in different
hinds, which rendered it next to impossible to
come to any right conclusion upon the subject.
It would, he contended, be a much more econo-
mical plan to vole a sum generally to the Crown,
without any classificaiion of heads of expense, as
in that case, what was wanted as • extras in
one department, night he saved in another, but at
piesent there woo no noiiye (or tconomy,;parti•

cuiarly as the extra exPenee of the class of Po.
reign Ministers was to he provided for by Pat ha-
ment, the only consequences of which woold be
that a greater number of persons Would he ern•
ployed and afterwards pensioned in that depart-
ment than
,were necessary. The great fault of
the general Government of the country Was pro-
fusion, there being no directing hand tO to the
limit of eartice, and each head of department
requiring what he thought requisite to make his
department perfect, instead of one sum being
voted for the Whole, and each department having
only a proportionate share. He denied that at
more liberal giant had been made to George 11.
than flit present Majesty, the fact being that the
Royal Family had, in pensions and allowances,.
upwards of 900,0001. per annum, besides the sums
formerly chargeable upon but since withdrawn
from the Civil List, and now charged upon the
Consolidated Fund. Upon these grounds, there-
tore, he objected to the Bill.
The Earl Of DAHNLE4r e*pressed his surprise at
seeing that so 'elite a Civil List should be pro-.
posed for Ireland, considering the means of that
cbutitry as compared with those ot England, with:-
out producing a single item or account to prove
its necessity. 'flue Civil List of England was
850,0001., that of Ireland 207,0001. He thought
they were bounit, on the start of balaud, to re-
quire some explanation on this head. Another
circumstance, to which he felt it his duty to al-
lude, was the increase of allowance to the Lord
Lieutenant, though the business of that Office
was tontidel'ably diminished since the Union. It
• was now increased from 20,0001. to 30,0001. gs,
year, a sum which, as the matter stood, ile Could
not help considering enormous ; and their Loud-
ships, he thought, would not do their duty by
that country without requiring Some details.
He hoped that the Noble Lords on the other side
of the ['rinse would give • some eiplanation upon
those points.
The Earl of LiVettrooL, in etplauation, stated,
that the sum now fixed on for Ireland was exact-
ly the same as it stood at the denrise ot his late
Majesty. That it was not more than the necesal
sities ot Ireland required, they had this proof,
that no sutra bad ever been remitted to this &ion-
try—(a laugh).-=They had also another fact in.
corroboration, which was tbii the time that
the Civil List ot Ireland was in debt, an Act was
passed, which rendered it compulsory upon the
Government hot to grant any pension above I'2ool.
a year, except when the pension fund was below
eighty thousand pounds a year ; the pension fond
bad long been below that sum, and yet no ad-
vance had been made in the amount of pensious,
though tinder the Act of Parliament and in the
state of the frind the Government had authority
to du so. As to the increase of salary to the Lord.
Lieutenant Of Ireland, be would appeal to those
Noble Lords who had ever filled the office, Mica
ther it was not necessary, in order to meet the
expences of that situation ? For a series of years
no advance had been made in the allowance, not-
withstanding the great increase in the price of
provisions ; and he would ask whether it was not
fair that some alteration should take plate? Wl-,cla
a Noble Friend of his had filled the situation, ili-,
salary was not found sufficient ; and he would ap-
peal to a Noble Duke, with whom he was not ita
the habit Of agreeing upon political questions, as
to the, same tact. Those who knew what the
expenditure of the situation. was, would nor,
be was persuaded, object to the advance of the
salary. _

The Bill was then read a second time, and or.
&red to be committed to-morrow.

The Matquess of LANSDoWN, on moving that
certain Papets should be printed, for the produc-
tion of which the House hatl made on order on a
former night, observed, that though they did not
contain what be kvanted, which was an account of
the trade between America and Canton, they
threw some light on the subject of which Parlia-
ment might avail itself.. It was found upoi,
qiiiry, that the East India Company had not the
means of supplying that lull intorination to Par-
liament which was desirable, but the intelligence
such as it was deserved to be considered.

The Papers were ordered to be printed, Ether
which the House adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

In consequence] of a Ballot for an Election
Committee, the Gallery was not opened till half-
past tour. o'clock. • -
Mt. W. WILLIAMS brought up the Report of the Commit-
tee to whom was referred a Petition, praying that the House
would alter and amend several Acts relative to the building of
a Bridge over the 'l' huues from the County of Middlesex to
the opposite shore,
DUBLIN GAS LIGHT BILL.

Mr. SHAW brought in a Bill to light the City of Dublin
with Gas, which was read a first and second time.

DROGHEDA ELECTION,

Mr. P. MOORE presented a Petition from Mr. Edward Al-
derson (the Agent of Mr. Thomas Wallis) and others, stating,
that a Petition had been presented we the Bth of May, against
the return made on behalf of the Sitting Member fur Drogheda,
which was ordered to be taken into consideration on the 6th

of June ; that on the 12th of May, the Petitioner received
the necessary recognizances, and gave the usual notice to the
Agent of the Sitting Member, of the names of the sureties,
in,nt that, on Saturday last, several affidavits were put in, ob-
jecting to the sureties. The Petition prayed either for time
to get copies of those affidavits, -so as to be able to meet
the objections put forth in them, or that he might be al-
lowed to present new sureties which he had ready fur the
purpose.
After the Petition had been brought up and read, Mr.
MOORE moved that the Petitioners have time to this day
fortnight to complete their recognizance.
Sir J. sTE WART said, that the sureties tendered were in
every way objectionable. One of them had but lately !teen re-
leased from gaol, where he haebeen for twelve mouths un-
der sentence for a riot; • the other was a person without pro-
perty or a home. The prayer of the Petition, he said, wa:s
quite irrenilar, and against all precedent.
Sir J. NIWPORT said, tfie House must have felt the point
as nine of great importance. • The diffencnce respecting these
proceedings was very striking, with respect to this country
and to Ireland. Here it was easy to ascertain the precise state
of the sureties, for they were on the spot. It was manifest
front tine difficulties unarm',-Ably thrown in the way of the
Irish Petitioners, that too lii‘ge a power was in the hands of
the Returning Officers; an this was a reason why every fa-
leility should be given to the Irish Petitioner, otherwise all
the inconerniencies would follow that could follow from the
abuse ortbat. power. He could speak with more coufidence
of these evils, because he had experienced the difficulties, and
had to meet the obstacles which had been opposed to him-

self. He thought the proposition made by the Petition was
very rcasouable.
Mr. W. WYNN said, he ,would oppose Ifiat part of the
prayer of the Petition which- asktd .for les«:to substitute
other sureties for those originally given; if :could be ester•

ilii.lllllZ it precedent for others which ought not to be follow-
ed ; but he thought that a reasonable time ought to be al-
!owed to the Petitioners to meet the objections tuadq,to the
sureties teadered iu tt,u Cirst ,41ta:ica, Tkit: was a vrecv7

d( lit ;he case of`tti:l3crot;gli dr Elicstnere, which ozcarrea

'last !..•-sno4.
`,PEAKER said, that with respect to Irish Petitions,
t;iough they-were obliged to enter into recognizances within
H thys, yet, unlike the case of English Petitioners, there
seas no Report made as to the non-completion of the security
for 14 ott),, atter the-expiration of the first 14 days; the time
`therefore, with respect to the present case, would not expire
till the sth of June, which was but three days after the time
rr,iied for. It was right distinctly to understand whether the
Tarbes meant to confine themselres'with the sureties a4eady
utn,ed, or whether they sought to offer new sureties.
Atte, a few,words from Mr. WYNN and Mr. MOORE, the
-motion was put and carried without a division.
Mi. WYNN said, that all adiJacits lodged with the Clerk
for Election Petitions, or flit. Master hi thaneery, ought to
be (men to the perusal of all the parties concerned. •
1.1E.-li(Eit said, tkat any iintrectiment thrown in the
Way of the parties would he most •tton..arratitable, and he
would take care that tune should he uttered.

PORT'S OUT
Mr. Lee broug ht up the .to
to set ye ot. Litt 'Commit lee to

I ELECTION.

in.,sented a:;ainst the return

lutes of the ;Nlembers hallotted
tey the •flierits of the Petition
•I'he,y wete as

s~~II~~N s :

Mr. J. Wilters(fri Grant,
Mr. Cliados ik'Court,
Mr. ;F. For:
Mr. Dritl,r,
4ir 1/. ihti
J•lt. 1.14,11. W. V. Fitzgerald.
1)r. Luslyingtoli.

It. tiratishy•Coorrr,
c. W.-Taylor,
NI% Gconze Imeey„
Mr. W. li. Aslitturst,
C. Cockerel!,
Somer. Cox,rjr. John 7.110.t•liv1),
Lord Viscount Clivr,
FIIONT THF. (.0111)::

Nlessage from the L,rd; antioury_td that their 'Lordships
Lad agreed to several Bins.
Mr. f). W. HARVEY pu sentrd a petition from Mr. Win.
I'eyant, the a.ze ot of Mr. 11,.. Llratit, stating, that peti-
ti.?., had against the return of the tiitliuh
Menthey for Ahlborinnz:r. That oor of the sureties tendeled,
as it had heel-, recently discovered, uas, by deeds of part ner-
ip, bound not to enter into security of any kind for any sum
txcetallug 301. The petition prayed ter leave to substi-
tr.te a person in the room of .loin Tholopsen
petitiort.ll:-,v.ing hero hroti;.:11; up :Ind re :d,

. - . .
Mr. ii AItV by then moved that Or, petitioner,. have lour-
1., I n days time to propose a. new surety in the room of 2itr.

liter a few words (ion: \lr. (LICE,
Nit. BF:la:ROM ME said llrtt it was very inconvenient
tact the incapacity of :,01 have 1,,e0 di,elosed
Inqour. It wa, ram (final y that so touch time should have
heti) allowed to tran,pire. The list vase which had been be-
tore IltillSe Was very distinct from the present—A stowt
ni:oti its own n.etits. The petition seemed to him to (.411 on
the noose to disl,ense with its own orders.

.Ir. WYNN said, Ihe Petitioner should have known in Ibe
first 11131itlICe the nature of the security.

ihr s I'EA KER. said, that he thought it right to state that
lie had hat day received a letter, signed W. Bryant, enclosing
ei,etai allithivi:s, which he had offered to the Examiner; that
Ile bad attended with his Counsel and Solicitor, and requested •
that the Examiner would cllow him to t titer int.., the recog-
nizance. (;tie of the atiidarits stated, that the deponent, on
the l&th of May, Kent to the hOnse of Wm. Thompson Egli»,
rod asked hint whether he would become surety for Mr.
lcryant ; t hat F.g iu expressed willingness to do so, and
that he mentioned to him the amount of the sum fur which
Ile was to h hound. That it was not until Monday last that it
IV:ii ascertained that Eglin was hound up by deed net to enter
into any securities excerdit.g oul,--,"1 he speaker said, lie men-
tioni d thrs to show that on the 15th May Eglin was aware of
the amount of the <lt:n for which he wa, to go security.
Mr. WYNN said, that it would'appear, front this that no
fault was attributable to the parties, as they were not made
aware of the incompetency of the surety.
After a few words from Mr. HARVEY and Mr. STUnGES
BOURNE", Mr. Win. Bryant • was called iu and examined.
He said that it was not till Monday night, at 1 I. o'clock,
that he was made acquainted with the tact of the incompe-
tency of Mr. Eglin.
The witness having withdrawn, it evas ordered that the Pe-
titioner be allowed ten days to procure a new surety, in the
room of J. Th.nopson
Mr. C. CALVERT presented another Petition from William
Bryant, oir the subject of the El. ct inn for Aldhurough, which
was ordered to be laid on 1 he'fable. •

Mr. Serjennl ONSLOW presented a Petition from the At-
tormei of Alaidenhead, praying tor an alteration of the law
Trspecthlg Conveyancers.

LiTTLETON presented a similar retitioo from
Si afford.

Mr. BLACKBURN presented a Petition from n town in
Liticashire, tin; name of which could nut he heard, against
the tax 00 foieign wool.

111r..10LIAFFE presenter] a Petition from the Occupiers cf
Laud in the neig!Wout hoot! of I't:fel-stirlJ, complain:Di; of the
tustresett state of al;riculture.

Lord C. NIANNERS presented a similar Petitio❑ from the
rmers of the County of Cambridze.
Mr. CURWEN presented a Petition from the Farmers of
the vest part of the County of Citisibetlatid, prajing that the
House would take their distressed state into its consideration,
not only on their own account, but on account of the la-
bourers depentliog on them.
Papers relative to Sierra Leone were laid upon the Table.
Sir G. CLILIIK prt,ented a Pet tutu front the Heritors of
the Conoty of Edinbur4h, praying that the duty on Foreign
Wool be not repealed.
ELECTION PETITION.

Mr. HART DAVIS presented a Petition from Robt. Winter.
the agent for the Petitioner, against the return of ME. Roharts
for Walling turd. The Petition stated, that the Petitioner
had, in consequence of his absence-in the country, relied on
a Gentleman conversant in ParVamentary busines4, to give
th,e necessary niotices, and put in sureties; that in conse-
quence of a misunderstanding on the pint of that Gentleman,
the notices had not been given within the time fixed by law;
lie consequently prayed to be allowed to put in the sureties
which he now had'in readiness.

()9 the question that the Petitioner he called in,
Mr. ABLIICROIBII.: observed, that supposing all the al-
legations in the Petition to be proved, he did not, see how the
kloitief could grant the prayer of it, without making the Act
of Parliament a dead letter.
Lord CASTLEREAGH thought the House could nut be
called upOn to occupy itself with such a Petition.
Mr. ht. DAVIS then requested leave to withdraw the re-
was .withdrawn..
. :AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS. •

Lord IkIILToN Stated, that he had a Petition
from the Occupiers of Land of Holden, in the
County of York, complaining of agricultural -dis-
tress. He wees convinced that their allegations
were not only founded in fact, but were worthy of
the attention of the House. At. the same time,
any matter which related to human food ,was eh-
titled to serious consideration. The Petitioners
attributed their distress to want of protection
against the importation of foreign corn. ''They
looked to agriculture as the source of wealth,
and only asked for protection. He did not•ex-
actly know to what object the inquiry, which an
lion. Member opposite had expressed his inten-
tioo to propose, was to be directed. ‘Vonld he
merely inquire into the ability of the fanners to
bear the burdens which lay upon them, or vroeld
he endeavour to ascertain the nature of those bur-
dens It his object was only to enter into a
limited inquiry, he (Lord 11.) was apprehensive
that it would only be considered as an attempt on
the part of the agricultural interest to enhance
the price of their manufacture, for corn was as
much their manufacture as count) or pottery that
of other branches of public industry. But if the
object was to enter into a mote extended infinity
and through its means to investigate those gene-
ral causes of distress Which affected the agricultu-
rists as part of the community; he,conceived that
touch good m;ght be derived from the elucidation
of the real grounds of the distress which pressed
upon the country. The object of the Petitioners
was not to.obtain an undue advantage crver other
classes of the community; they only wished to
right themselves and others too.'
.Were it other-
%vise, he should say that their object was not
philesophical, hut calculated to do infinite this-
citet in the present state of the country.
The Petition having Leen brought up andreall,
Mr. H. SUMNER said, in consequence of the
inquiry which took place in ISIS, the House,

Irernea to be •satisfied that SOs. %vas the lotsest
price at which the corn grower could be,protect-
ed against foreign competitors. A specific in-
quiry ought now, in the first instance, to take
►dace on that subject, to ascertain whether the
means thus devised to protect the agricultural in-
terest had proved effectual, and %vhether other
measures were necessary to carry those which
were then adopted into effect. it would then be
for the House to inquire into the present state of
those connected with
,the -landed interest, and
how far the price of corn would be likely to be
affected by attending to their wishes. An inquiry
on these subjects would, in his opinion, tend to
tranquillize the public mind. The question for
them to consider should he, in tire first instance,
not whether an increase of price should grant-
ed, but whether their former measures had proved
efficient.

Mr..CU4WEN was of opinion, that unless an
inquiry took place, and unless adequate protec-
tion %vas granted to the agricultural interest, the
dintini!.lied growth of corn in the country would
hi! such, that ithitucely the public must pay in-
finitely dearer for their corn than they had hither-
to paid or than Wltiti other eireonwances they
would be likely to pay. Both the agricultural
and the manufacturing classes were' strongly in-
retested in the insiitntion of such an inquiry.
The country ought not to be left at the mercy of
foreigners for a supply of grain. could wish
a great proportion of the Committee to whom the
inquiry might be confided, to consist of commer-
cial men.

Mr. Cotta did not think that the present dis-
tress arose from the want of a protecting price,
but from the weight of taxation, and eepecialiy
tioin the cluel and intt►nlitic tax laid on Malt in
the last year. LLel►►re that duly was iimitiosed,
matte's were improving hi Nottolk. They were
nor so well as could be wished, but they seemed
to be looking up. He considered the real cause
or all the distress was to be found in that system
on which Ministers had oniformly acted ever since
they had been in the House, and it was his opi-
nion tbat it that system were not abandoned, the
country must still go cm from bad to worse.
Mr. RICARDO ‘vas convinced that if further pro-
tection were granted to •tl►e agricultural interest,
the Measure must be highly detrimental to all the
other classes in -the community. These Gentle-
men-had a: great opinion of countervailing duties ;
but if the principle .were followed up .on which
they were dh,posedto act, the effect of it must be
to cut off all out foseign trade. Sopposing corn
could be had from Poland for forty or fifty shill-
ings per quarter, in that case, to protect. those
Gentleman; an extra charge.of 40 or 50 shillings
must be imposed on thecontooner. They thotight
it most unreasonable that the agricultural inte-
rest shook" wish to raise the price of corn. A
more nuseasomabie time that) the present could
not have been chosen for agitating this question.
If the prayer of 'the Petitioners. were attended
to, it would increase the distresses of the people
beyond measure, and he therefore hoped that
mielmin these few days the House would give it a
decided negative.
Mr. I3ENETT (of Wiltshire) contended, that the
agricultural interest did not wish for any measure
that wouhramount to a prohibition attic, impor-
tation of corn. As far as be,,*, tlerstoc,rt their
prayer, it was their objetvint to raiie..the I►rice
of corn nrtnrcesserily I►igb, but to kOp is at a
steady remunerating price—and lower it could noc
be expected. If all the polls were open, by a
sufficient protection ' not .beiog granted, the pre.
sent taxation'coold not be borne, the OM' rates
could not be paid—the, labourers could. not be
employed. He would prove from the history of
the country, that when the highest protection was
afforded to our agriculture, corn was sold at the
cheapest rate ; and durint, tbe"sixty years in which
ti bounty was given on the exportation of grain
in the last century. the price of cotri had been
lower than at any other period. The Act of 1815
did. not afford the farmer the requisite protection.
When the price of grain-was advanced, the sport-
ing merchant gained all the profit, and all the
odium fell upon the landed interest.
Lord Minfoist said, the support which be should
give the Petitioners would delieoil upon time cha-
racter of the measures that tr►ighit be proposed.-
The Petition was ordered to lie on the Table.