The Sun.
London, England, 1820-07-12 00:00:00

THE QUEEMS,OUNSEL.

Mr. BnouonAm begged leave".t6 call the atten-
tion of .the House ;to it=Subjent.-41 some importance,
as it regarded the proceedings .cif- Parliament, and
'the individual convenience of some of its Mem-
bers., It ..was- known. to the ;House, that two
cases existed Members ' of that House
were by -law. prevented- from attending as 'Counsel
at :the bar of the House 'of Lords:, The first re-
ferred to writs of error.; all. questions of
Common ,Law; There- wasanother-case in Which
they were-net.legally .petinitted to appear, and
that was, Wliere;Bills'4vere.hronght under their
tordshipS' 'consideratiiiii.'• This rule, however,
had not been ;strictly:-!acte&upon,for-more than a
century, not,:- he --believed, since. the year. 1710,
from which period. Members of
:that House . had
-been allowed to attend the,har of the House of
Lords as Cointsei ilf--Caiesj-of Common, Law.
1 hey:-h4 not; hOwever, 'l3•Weii'dilowed to attend
as CounSel- against Bills,- aiiithe did not mean to
deny, that such a•-regulation `was,--produCtive of
triucl(ConVenienee.in the,peoceedings'''Of the legis-
lature.-.:-There was, .However, la `case now pend-
ing, which was-of so*-petuliarry 'important a na=
tine, that it ought' .to- un ext,hiptiOn- to this
ordinary
,and----Vqy'.‘ H pro Per- rule: 7 e -should,
therefore,, propoSe.that'the two •Law Officers of
her Majesty be excepterk,-.and thit they-be-allow-
ed. 1.6 bp herd at the bar-pf;tW4lbuser of Lords
against thc;...till-relative .Majesty: :No-
thing could. be more fair or: equitable than such
an exception; as her Majesty having no house-

h
hold, and there being a question implied • t
oes
Bill, whether she ever should have any, 1r di's.
officer to represent 143 r in the House of -1-°l'o,"
who might act for her in somewhat a similar 1.0,
pacity to that of a nominee at‘an ElectioA.
rnittee. Should that. Bill come dOWO, f°,
kkottse, which he could not
.possibly anticiPsclo
lshoul qlso,. propose. tINt her. Majesty's tthe
Law Officers bexxcepted froin voting 011 0,
question. The Hon. Member Was about to_ Pr
pose a motion on the subject;- when
the
Lora CASTLEREAGH rose and-suggestede
pediency of a previous notice, as the subject l,
of so important a nature as to require some ae.
beration. It was not improbable that a discosst°
might arise upon it. -11
Mr. BhouGilAm thought the motion' would
been•aeced.ed,to 'as a matter of course. frer•-iz'
jesty's Counsel had been twice heard at the '"
of the House of Lords without any objectic
having been taken, and could the Noble .111
possibly' think of urging one in this instance
however, the Noble Lord should persist in doing
so, was he aware of the consequenCes ? Wasfot
aivare,. that he would establish a precedent ,
excluding all Members of the House froM betiele
heard at the Bar of the House of Lords in ci`sla
of appeal ? 'Assuredly, if the Noble Lord sboalp
refuse to acquiesce in his motion, he (AAer
Brougham). would move the Standing- Of'„st
against the hearing Counsel- at their Lordsh`r
Bar in cases of Writs of Error. =
Mr. Wy NN cited "two Orders made by Parl,lre
ment on the subject, the one. in 1666 x, and tlO
-other in, 1669. The first, in the opinion of
Hon. Member; was -strictly prohibitory, batn'o'
the second there appeared a sufficient sauctl'

for the motion. proposed.
•

°

.atr. BROUGHAM said he should give no., ,/
a motion on the 'subject for to-Morrow "(this da?
„
Lord CASTLEREAGH would give no o,rio it
upon it whatever, he was only anxious, that'
‘hould not be hastily urged on, as it was lii;
to create dischs-sion. et
Mr. WYNN had taken it for granted that
Majesty's Law Officers would have propdsed
measure as a- matter to be expected from the °are
tare of the proceedings in which they if'
engaged.
Sir FhANcis Biptninr thought, in oraeri.i.,/
avoid inconsistency, that a similar proceeui';,
would be necessary in the case of the Attorl'e'cu
General, who was to attend the House of Mcf,
on the part of the King.---Notice for to-morro'

- 'EDUCATION.'
tte
Mr. BROUGHAM brought in a.Bill for the
,educating of the Poor. He lamented the feeb%l.
that had been 'manifested by. certain .metnberglio
4
,the Roman Catholic and Dissenting, bodies.
.tr,
'House would, hardly believe that they,had ut;:d
stood, from his.oonnecting it with the Establino
;Church, that it was, the object of. the measure of
compel parents to send their children to dOtrej
'the last remains of
_religious liberty. He: sil°,4rito
,this language_ to be little warranted' "'"ji•
,cumstances of the, country, and utterly ilahr to
cable to his . Bill. It was his anxious scis'io
meet the wishes of those of • the most respectLit'
:bodies to which he had alluded,, and he i
hcb'
,therefore struck out the:sacramental test, "'",
he had at first made a part •of the Bill.'
-they Twould.-receive this as a voucher for hi tire{
cer4y when he declared that nothing was fli; ije
from than to do.any.thiug that CO
considered hoftile to Religious liberty. tors
Mr. W.SMITH Said, the Protestant Dissen of
were in
,some degree alarmed by the provisiq'
:the 8111. but riot to the same extent as the
Catholics had been. There were some clat1.;;;
which- he Wished to see modified in the pr°g'
of the Bill. A 014
. The-Bill Was then read a first trine all"
.
dered to be read a second time to-morrow.

NEW BARRACKS. the
Mr. CALCRAFT' called the attention 0 •
0-P
'House to a subject of' some importance,
peared. froth- the- conversation' of 'the. prCte.'7,i,ot
night, that the Right Hon. Gentleman diet
know that the building of the New Barracks oe
c9rnipenced: He (Mr. Caleraft) knew thatkler'
wall of the stable had been -carried to a con Al'
able height, and that 11°" small expense ,ace
,ready been incurred. As that House was
posed to hold the purse strings of the coLuitid
it was right that, they should know Who 010,
:authorised the beginning of this work, whiel, i;00
:to costthe country 70,0001. before it had rece'o•
the sanction of any vote of that House. Ihe'verf,
:pense of the- Barrack Department had, in °-,lo'
-few' years; been increased to the enormous `l-03r1
8,000,0001. ; and it now appeared that the •
rack Board had authorized this Work to be. Ci.lo
without even the -.sanction of the 'Board, a pre
,head of which the Right Hon. 'Gentleina-',-00
sided. He concluded by moving, that tile OPT
of the Barrack Department should .a,ttetw
House to`-morrow.. a
•of the EXCHEQUEIrsaI :9. 0,1
the Contractor knew that the whole:bUsi9e:4o;.
subject to the-revision and control of l'arliara"
He hatteo"douht that the Barrack Boa Set?.
acted regularly
.and cautiously. The goo•
her had perhaps bettei• give a 'notice. i:pear.l6
Mr. CALCRAFI' thought the question •)--eforeii.
now ten times more- irriportantithan
lie • wished to know if -the...Rai:l*k: 0-°6,l:re tho
Ti 4
submitted an estimate, to the astigy
first brick was -He ,had. -no objelloale
postpone his.moilo.nbcgt-t.iyeii..llP7liqrie_d;fl6.ooll.
cellor of theE r- xcheque would -not in Oe-
time proceedWith:-thisc BLIP. .4911 °
,After a. few Words frOrn. iItEV CrrArleoor to,
the EXCHEQUER the notice was fixed
morrow. - '.•-• '
to
• . FIR .N 1 ANAS.. 4H LOPEZ.- dareNa•
Lord J. RU"SSELL rose to move an ii-ltdt 0
the CrOwntii:ghOttenliFiasiiiiisine-nt 01 idth efe
nassehLopei:.44.by- e 9.
for the sentence wlricl-: had 1 off .I"6Oche
thought it their.bennderi'd ant,
with severity-, but thititlru4;-Ni;h6130:(! ci.„.66431
means' of 'getting ca-1 le
might now;,-withwtifOiriPtY,'!'StifiL I trt
that justice, in thiss--particular case, imp r caul'
•
pended, and that mercy might tabo

edintbe
Y'
had ll°
of Loi
similar
tion. (-)C",
,
,tr;
,sty►'s tsle
;a on
„q to Pr(/'

ed the e%;
abject '4,.,
one dO
di sclosi°is

NOUN WI
tier, 113;
at the
objects
Ob I e
tans ?
;t in cloWi
? Was ;It
;edent
lS in cos
)rd sho°
he t r
ng_ 0 rdei
GordshiP

13 Parl'
)Y the
and ltd
ion 01 t
y,. .
safl

notice )/
,u;
eii
was JIP-

d that 111';
opdsed
an the ",e
,hey Wel

i order to
roceetli7,
Attorlie'co
of L'3l. fo
0.111011111

tine of
be- of
ae feeli°o'lf
Leraber,4o
dies, r,
iad unuheeJ
stahli3 to
leasure of
Lo destrej
I€she
the 61'
Y
IS ifiS"bio
?SPeCtlitiotk
id he j:cfr
tie he,i,
)r his stef
as fttrAt"De
coal'

t°
r 'ener I
0

he Roola. I
rie

nod

IS' •

Ithe
ot
tlitf:ori
racks
that t r,
coosidel.
E., had se
sal
was
nit
cou-
-0,10
: 'a
• e
revel
Ihsedin a
• 4llga- r'.
the
begi
be
at re'
itoi•\.;ol#
the 'F'tP,'
tte¢A

J tp3t'
salt), of
;Wes° fit'
u.
,oa rivteo
)11.

t fore;
as I);.bit°
,ortA
ref°l to
iectiol'ood
theCoteal)
t

of
ryL~fto-
d •

.5
to
.?-srti-I,det
el' ce4'
lotiOthe
b
Oto-rai
-e,
orb
r c

. ,
Ke dekeribeai. tl chiiraCter of the e6ence com-
mitted by Sir M. Lopez,and- the:manner in which
• that • house-had called- for -his: pimishrnent, and
then proceeded to state the circumstances which he
thoughtmight be urged in favour of a mitigation of
his sentence., -In the first plate, Sir M. Lopez
'as ..now Sixty-four years of age, and two years
might therefore be considered to be• a large pro-
Portion of the-remainder of his-life, -- He believed
that Sir M. Lopez Was' now suffering, not because
he was More criminal but because he was less
Prudent than others had; been. Ile thought then,
tfninder all the' circumstartees; that if would be well
o rernit..one year of his imprisonment. • An im-
prisonment of one year,. and a fine of 10,0001.
wo.uld.‘he thought-, lie a sufficient infliction. He
IncAred an W-ould Address, praying that his Majesty
be-graciously pleased to shorten theperiod
I`l confinement, to' which Sir Lopez- had been.
sentenced in Exeter jail, to such period, and in
414:1,411 Manner, as his Majesty might think fit.
-to
IvIr• W. WYxxt was-sorry to oppose a mo-
n lik-e the present; but. he thought the House
n
~..;3°4.1 ot adopt it consistenWy or with propriety.
-the'case- of Sir M-. Lopez, was; in his opinion,
?ne.that called for a severe judgment. He-con-
lured the
.House to reflect upon what they were
of in assenting' to this-rnotion. Independently-
interfering with, and imposing new and un-
constitutional functions upon that 'House, they
t. ere
°ll°Tved establishing.' a precedent Which would be
.
fey up in almost all cases ; for thete'•were
Which would not be found to pbs'sess features
°F a 'signior nature, warranting an application like
the
jo.Preent' for the interposition of the House.
."4.r• PEEL - that if the. House
, observed, .
4._..'11-grittne case of Sir INI.Lor:-:,z worthy oitheir
ter'f . •
erence, he saw 11-0 reason.. why they should not
• Ai— s° extend the application for Mercy iri'faVour of
inat ~Swaon, whose- sentence was also of a severe
Mo,7e*a rnotion were perSisted in, he should
Le'rd' I).r,oPosi Lion to- thateffect.--tHea'r!)
fife: observed, that this was
tilirPearo Cast' in which that House was called
t° interfere with the exercise' of the royal
Plac:gialititvie. of Mercy, and what had taken
shell, t the course' of the debate, seemed -to
triot. ° what' consequence the adoption of such a
do I°ll was likely tO. lead. The =motion was -no
014
Curablehono to the feelings of -the Noble
he de
the precedent was' peculiarly to
the dePrecated, which the acquiescence ' of
to
in such- a motion was calculated
to -I"ish. It would better become the House
it .„,`ealre the' prerogative of mercy - where
-as lixd by the Constitution; and not to pres
ofProPosition 'of this nature; for the adoption
tin`il case-would naturally bring forth another,
Sp at length, it might-he deemed a sort of per-
,ll4l reflection upon any individual suffering the
li:3 •
nee of the law not to have his case brought
discussion- in that House. But the Noble
I
117,—; Navin _discharged What-he conceived to be
Out

titaw.o,. would, 'he-hoped, be induced to wit

.
the
..is.thation; and he mio-ht he satisfied dia.,
diindiyidual referred to would not b!,by this
th?„l,Biion placed-on- a less adva.ntageou. ..footiug
''iix.,,e good before.
li' S--
-1- • supported the motion-, as he
ti°ugh•tha.t
since the flciuse was the prosecutor,.
t'waisdPr°Per.that like auy other prosecutor, it
. • atili-t-taoriLlY fizir in' erev,' if it thought that mercy
i. extended. The"
°r count,.`
was that the= sentence was-too Sevefre.
general feeling in
they -,-'" ire did gas,
at all. blame the- Court,: or
decide indifferently. But it would givethe
trctl,.
84,_41vex, great satisfaction; if on account of._.
stance mentioned, mercy were extended to
M• L0r,....
r G t.'".
- ti oil . trit-NrEY cOrdially`Ortcurred in the mo-
tic, 5 and WiShefl. it might embrace an appl.ica.
of all Vs° for NG:Swann for saw not the weight
. , sirteja.th„.er 'difference' betweeni the two cases.
tence.
was
"XE urged the mitigation of the sen-.
... to), MUinst Mr. Swann, whose delinquency
yet- Indeed
the .Nr
„compared- to that of Sir' M. Lopez.
iluar°--°(-11P Mover `thou-ght.proper to prefer
se to the Swann --(a latigh)—rnfusing the
1., 'ties of di • d into the weaker—(a
...toh.) e nobler bir
the/iiesr.s• 13110-extOw and MONEY
it. otton, aria . supported
Mr: ABER.CROMBIE spoke against
CobllVir. CAxNrNo- said, that if the motion of the
ebr Lord
were acceded' to, it would
_establish
fer'firedent which-would probably be extremely
disc: e Lil consequence, and • involve the-House in
IN-01341s,srls for which it was' most unfit. If the
exist -(1-°11 had supposed that any impediments
case ef in way of a fair- consideration of the
tior„ the individual in' whose behalf this mo-
I/'4B eil'ss rnade, he must feel that that impedimentn
the eo:ctually removed by what had passed in
Iy hoh taSe of the present-disoussion. He earnes
Chert4i e''' therefore, that the Noble Lord would
it a c°llsent to withdraw his motion, than press
sh.,
jdtvision:
.. . .
lion. GentlerMAcitr\rostr concurred with the. Right
to
PearednanoppOsite ; • and as there ap-
derati , ne an understaiading, that due
.colvnsi-
tre..ssehol,lld be given to the case of -Sir- la-
'lig I\i' trPez in the proper "quarter, he hoped hiB °"le riend. Would be itTduced to withdraw
Iriotion..
19,41:°:_d Joior
~,T,
that if he
.usstLi, in reply", said,.
to sou't litaken, he nnderstood the Noble Lord
takeriY3,that..the caseof Sir M. Lopez would be
h 0....... Into
..consideratiousby.-the .-Crown:=---(No;.
Garr )
_,-At least lie . d--t- d. the Hon.
-.l44hsthq,„„.. t• - ) .. 44 gr 6 0,0 - . _Right
now
re.
... .., --.. up sa,.
..,, that no impediment , .
. 'ice
itito'itt in' the way of the Ctown:taking the' et -
NriiBl°llsideration, with a view of mitigating the
vili, luient. • As this- result coincideiwith the
litoor,}whickl he had talienof- the ' case-when he
t() 1,',1,,t iChefoike the H9use,- he had no.:objection
t'iotiol'udq'le his mo(Hear, hear4,--The
4 wasTthen withdrawn. • .. -
, br. r
~.. SOUTH' ANIF.IITCA..
'llov -`-augitlVdTON rose pursuant to notice, to
. ..
14 tle:sf°r certain douments.of 4reat importance
1:34.1 country relative to a transaction on the
hs lof it, 1 . pre
-40,4 -,-,
laY) 1 i 9, betWikftheTrench Govern-
fq and that. 'Ot litietto-sAv'res; Oil the,sitbject
Me.
0,
ter, a P • .
Le thro_o rince of the ".Bourtion-, family on
ue of that country. - In'bririging forward

such a motion he had no wish to ernbattais the
measures of GoVernment; though he did: not
think that, even in the present advanced state Of
the Session, it would be proper to postpone it.
A most extraordinary.proposition had-been Made
by the Secretary of Foreign-Affairs of the 14... tench
.Government, at thetime above alluded-to, when
?'lto suspicion could possibly, be entertained, of
such a transaction being in agitationcon• the part
of the French Government. That proposition
had been, that the Prince of Lucca, the nephew
of Ferdinand should. be placed. on, the
throne. of the Spanish Colonies in. South America.
It had been stated at the same time, on the part-
of the Government of France that the transac-
tion shonld_ remain unknown to England ; and,.
at the-same time, it was asserted that Austria
and Russia were fax;ourable. to the project.
Whatever might have been the views of Austria,
he thought that such a plan could not have been
fortried unless France thought herself, secure of
the "'co-operation, or, at least, the content of
RiiSsia. France had, at the, same time, under-
taken to negotiate - for the consent of all the
Powers of Europe; and had promised to support
the new SOvereign with Such a portion of her
naval and military force as would enable him to
set, all opposition at defiance. That opposi-
tion could have come frOrn Great. 13ritain only.
'Some objection had been started by the Minister
from Buetios Ayres' as-to the practicability of the
plan. It'had then beeh proposed that the Prince
Of Lucca should marry a Princess of I3tazil, and
that a cession of Banda should take place-in con-
sequence of the-marriaae. • It hadat the same time
been given out that b-reat Britain -intended to
place a British Prince on the Throne, of Buenos
Ayres.; and then followed a tirade on the injury
done to the Catholic Religion from. such •a:step-
on the part of the British Government, But the
Government of Buenos Ayres made it an indis-
pensable condition that the consent Of the _British
Government should be obtained to the- proposed,
arrangement,. He thought he had shewn - a Par-
liamentary ground for the motion, and that it was
both the interest -and the duty-of the country to
acknowledge the independence of the South Ame-
rican Colonies. -None-of the other European
vernments, with the exception of France and
Spain, had a right to interfere with--the conduct
of Great Britain ; and, in fact, no State:that had
been privy to the transaction, had a, right to in-
terfere. It was highly probable that France had
sounded the feelings of Spain; before :She 'had,
formed such a project ; and in that case the d-6-
vernment of Spain had no right to complain, 'and
Britain was bound by no tie to that Power.
The South American Colonies had maintained
their indepen&Uce fora number of years, and to
recognize thekindependence, was a matter of po-
licy on the partof Foreign'Powers. If that were
not the case, the independence of Holland and the
United States, could never have been recognized.
This country had a Consul at Buenos Ayres ; but
great inconvenience ekisted,as to the carrying on
of diplomatic relations. At the same time that
we traded with Buenos Ayres, we treated them
as pirates ; and at the present. moment_ proceed.-
ings were pending, at the instance of the King of
Spain, to condemn- their ships as pirates. The
Spanish Colonies liAd been mentioned. only as an
additional Article to the:Treaty of -1814, at Pa-
ris, by which the. King of Great-Britain had sti-
pulated to furnish The ColOnies neither with ainns
nor ammunition. If France could dictate to Spain,
in the manner she -appeared to have done, Great
Britain ought- not to lie by,; as -in the event of
that taking place, an exclusion of all British coat,
mOdities would take place from - that portion of
South America. --The Holy-Alliance should have'
excited more attention than it appeared to have
done, on the part -of _Ministers. For, 30 years
the blood and, treasure of England .had flowed
for France, to restore the House of Bourbon to
the Throne of their ancestors, and now that
House turned upon her benefactor ; and France
had acted a treacherous and perfidious part to
Great Britain- 'lt appeared that the United States
were on the watch; and having obtained posses-
sion of _Florida--from Spain,. were .preparing to
send an Ambassador -to South- Atherica. Care
should be taken that the United States should
-not be allowed to get the-start of us ; as in those
Colonies there were-20 millions of people, and a
great demand for:British-goods. Tliellon. Mem-
ber concluded by mo.vins for Copies of all Offi-
cial Cominunications received by the British Go-
verninent, -relative to a Negoeiation.between the
Government of Vran-c• e and that of Buenos Aires,,
on the subject of pluou-g^ a•Prince of the House
of Bourbon on the Throne of that Cent-au:
Lord CASTLEREAGH opposed the motion, on the
groundS that the-production. of the documents al,
luded to could not have any other effect than that
of embarrassing G-overnment,. by leading them-
into an' explanation, which would drag on, an ab-
stract discussion on assumed facts, Of which, in
the piesent state of the information in the hands,
of Governtnent, they could_ not judge either as to
the 'good or bad foundation. He would' not dis-
guise that they were in possession of a number of
printed papetS; transmitted to Government bi-
Naval -Officers,- On the station of the river Plate,
which were in the shape.oficirculars,.stating, that
criminal proceedings had .heen instituted against
certain members of a late: Government of Ifuenos
Ayres, .for what by the;ekr§lifig Government was
looked upon as an nnconstitutioal measure. But
even these papets.couldlnot be.produced as being
official ; and therefore, undet h-e
,present cir-
cuhaSfanees, he must refuse to enter into any ex-
planatieny• which
~he .was .sure the tinuse would.
allow him to say could not be productive.of the
least practical benefit. The'llon.'-and Learned.
Member himself had not co► fined. hiinself to this',
subject alone, but had made it the stepping stone.
to an examination of the whole
.policy, pursued
by, this- towards -the,revolted Colonies of,
South America: - He must allo,decline to follow
him' into this wide .field, of discussiOn.; nor could
he ever, consent to enter into.are-eiitininatiOn of
their conduct towards-fOregu Powers. He should
reserVelimself on these subjects till, the
_proper
time should arrive for going; into them: 'lre must'be excused for taking the 'liberty of cautioning

theaffonourable and. Laartied Gentleman- frazn
into what .he is pleased to term the.
Holy Alliance. He (Lord C.) had watched
:that Alliance as Much as' the Learned Gentle-
alma-and, he'mnst say, that he saw no reasonable
:grounds for those sentiments of distrust-he had ex-
pressed. If •he were to say all he knew' and
thought with regard to those Great Powers, he
could prove that they conducted themselves on a
far different spirit from that attributed to them.
He- saw nothing on the • face. of those papers
which pointed more against Russia than Austria
He protested against that spirit of -catching at
abstract incidents, and building inflammable mat-
ter upon them. He assured the Learned Gen.-
tleman that if in this transaction any discredit
should result to the Great Power alluded to, it
would be the, first time there hattbeen reason to
alistrust- that or any other of the Powers consti-
tuting that Alliance, whose honour and interests
were individually and colleetiVely engaged in the
maintenance of the happiness and rights of the
people of the whole of Europe. . Up to the pre-
sent time he could expressly state that they were
all:untainted. He trusted, therefore, under all
circumstances, the House would see the propriety
of his not lending himself to the propagation of a
discussion from which no benefit could be derived,
but on the contrary much prejudice mightbe done
with reference to Foreign Powers.
Sir JAMES MacKmosn contended thatno time
was more fit for bringing forward and discussing
a motion of this kind than the time when foreign
Powers Were making encroachments of a clandes-
tine and treacherous nature oulhe National. in-.
terests of thiS country. He thought the' Noble
Lord. should have no objection to -produce such
documents as were in' his possession. He wished
gie HouSe patticularl.y-- to observe, that the ne-
gociation respecting' the establishment 'of a.Mo-
narchy at Buenos Ayras, .was carried on in the
'month of May 1819, just at the time when that
House was employed in'passing a Bill to prohibit
British subjects from entering into the service of the.
South Americans---a- Bill, the' effect of which-was
to enable Spain to recover possession of those,pro-
vinces. The Continental: Powers were
.privy
to the plan of for Ming the New Monarchy in
those extensive regions ; while England, kept in
ignorance on the subject, Was discussing the meaa
sure to which he just alluded. If the British
Government had known of the existence of-such
a-negociation, the Parliament surely iv-ould never
be called. on to„ pass a measure • so. hostile to its
literests: lie thoUght itivas of the utmost hnpor-
tance that the House should have this information,
in order to show to foreign nations that this
country was not inattentive to their proceedings:
By agreeing to this measure, the House would
strengthen the hands of- his Majesty's Govern.
ment in every7negociation. which might :be had
on this- subject. The relations of South America
and Spain were certainly, at this time, in a very
peculiar- ; because the recent transac-
tions in Spain had materially changed the whole
aspect of things in South America. lie must say
that a return •of those provinces to the yoke of
an odious despotism, was a thing which he had
ever objected, to ; but when a nation became free,
'and was capable of governing itself, as Spain now
appeared to be, it was possible that a junction,
mutually advantageous to both Fifties, - might-
now take place between Spain and the Aine.-
rican Colonies. lle was' not very sanguine on
this point ; but'it might happen. Spain had al-
ready performed two of the greatest services that
ever were • conferred by any nation on mankind.
The first was the,expelling, with a small min=
tary force, an:.anabitions invader from her-terri-
tory ; the other important- service was that of
heap .recovered., her. liberty -without the
effusion-of blood. Indeed, the time was arrived
when the spirit of reformation,, in all political in-
stitutions, was too powerful to be
"resisted: and
heiaelieyed the only dangers to be apprehended
were.those that arose. out of the passions of_poli-
tical leaders. -The progress in reformation cha.:
racterized the present-age, and any :Goaernment
that resisted .it was sure to be defeated.
.a.;
Mr.. CANNING conceived, that enough had
been
.stated to show that papers of this. kind ought
not to be produced in their present imperfect
state. It might be honourable and beneficial for
Gentlemen who had no ostensible situations to exa
press their sentiments as the-two Hon. Gentle-'
men had just done ; but would it be fit for the
Government to give any expression of sentiment,-
or to lay before the House a detail of fa6ts,
which were'not sufficiently full and authentic to
act` upon, and thus to hold out to this country
and to EUrbpe an-imbecility of councils., highly de-.
trimantal-to the interests of the cOuntry. As to
what-his: Learned Frierid said of this negociation
being carried' on at the time'when that House was
passing the Foreign Enlistment he would say.
'that:although other countries might act treaa
cherously to us, --it was most satisfactory to us to
think that we had not dpne any thing with .which
we could reproaCh ourselves; although other na-
tions pursued a'differeth course. He entertained a
different opinion from his lion. and Learned
Friend, as to the . reconciliation which he sup-
posed might be advantageously made between'-I
Spain in her present reformed, state, and the South:
American Provinces; for Provinces were, always,
worse treated by countries that had their popular
assemblies, than, by those which were governed"bY
an absolute. monarchy. He was surprized to hear;
the Learned Gentleman say,. in 'defiance ofi
,history so- universally known, that the Sim.-
niarda had driven, away their invaders by the
aid of a ,snaa.ll ...military force ; for what could_
they
have done,w)thoot the Duke of Wellington.
and his army ?. As to this country acknowledging
the Government of Buenos Ayres, he- wished to.
'.know, -while one 'Government Was driving anaa
other,out, which of them was to be: aCknOW-
Jedged ? lie retained the same wishes now for
South Anierica, as he did before the late-changes
in Spain. As to the:Papers moved for, they'Could
not be produced without great inconvenience; and '
it would be impossible to give satisfactory..infor-
mation on many of them.

•
Mr. ELLICE implored the Noble Lord., and
Right Hon. Gentleman to extend- their care to

_ .
the great interests of th..- conntry connected with
the South American Colonies, to which he looked
Chiefly for the relief of our manufacturing and
commercial distress. He expressed much satis-
faction at the speeches of the Noble Lord and
Right Hon. Gentleman.

After a few words from Sir F. OMMINEY,
Dr. LUSHEIGTON replied, and in consideration
of the papers not being official, obtained permis-
sion to'withdraw his motion.
EAST INDIA VOLUNTEERS.

Mr. CANNING moved the third reading of the East India
Company Voliniteer Bill.
Mr. CREEVEY spoke against the increase of the military
force, and in favour •of economy. The East India Company
he considered as a public grievance, in itself, and was sur-
prised at their asking, a• force to repress the people. - He also
asserted that the regiment would be useless e hen _raised, and
that any rioters might seite their arms in tie depot and turn
them against the peace. For these reasons he moved, as au
amendment, that the Bill should be read this day
-six months.
- Mr. HOB HOUSE seconded the ne,tion. • •
Mr. MONEY stated that the Bill before the House did not
raise any new body, but merely revived a regiment which had
been on embodied by the East -India Coeipanr, and
was found to be as -efficient and'ineritorions a body as the
country boasted.. reminded the House of the necessity
there was for some such protecting force to be in preparation
against the repetition- of such predatory attacks :14 those
which had been coininit ted by the Spafields rioters and when.
30,000 stand of arms, and property e mounting to about 12 or
1'3,000,0001: were left almost defenceless. .
Mr. HOUHOUSE said; that though it was usual to talk of_
the people being misledby demagogues, he was convinced
that the people entertai•hed none Of the evil designs- imputed
to them. He objected to the extent-of the Army. %Vt.. had
92,000 men, of whom 36,0.00 were kept for Britain alone, being
6,000 more'tharrOliyer Cromwell had to keep down t he conn-
try when be usurped it. The "lion. Member also objected to
the barracks in the Mews, and ridiculed tray fears being en-
tertained of the disaffected, which he thought were so often
spoken of, that they Came to be credited as children were said
to tell
,srpries of-ghosts till they believed in their existence.—
He reettinmenducLipstead.of soldiers, to remove the causes of
complaint itethe count ry.
. Sir F. OMMANEY was in favour of the Bill. • • •
'Mr. W. WILLIAMS also supported it, as a firm-friend to .
the liberties of the people. Any plan of economy he would
vote for, and the reduction of the army was athing that his
eimstittitional jealousy would always favour; but he had no
objection to a force like that now .rinder consideration. It'
Was-composed of cithtens, and could never he available, ex-
cept,Against an armed rabble or •tniuultmous assembly, with
whose proceedings no liberty could co-exist.
The Amendment wasnegatived, and the Bill read a third
time and passed. _