The Sun.
London, England, 1829-05-22 00:00:00

MR. O'CONNELL.

At twenty minutes past Five, the order of the
House was called on, that the Speaker do issue his
warrant fur a New WTrit for the County of Clare.
SOLICITOR-GENERAL—Sir, it Will
be in the recollection of the House, that upon a
former occasion, when this matter was under its con-
sideration, some Member to whosejudgment great de-
ference was due, said it would be better to have a
reference at once to the recent statute that has passed
to disfranchise the forty-shilling freeholders. On that
account, Sir, therefore, I shall withdraw the motion,
for the purpose of adding that the writ issue with
those additions which the recent Act proposes.

The SPEAKER then put the question to the
House, and
Mr. SPRING RICE rose for the purpose of
moving an amendment to the new proposition,'
and to the motion before the House. I take the
liberty, Sir, observed the Hon. Gent., very earnestly
of intreating the indulgence of the House, to what I
shall have to say upon the present question. For I
do assure them that no individual, at any time, felt
so deeply convinced of the necessity of craving its
indulgence as I do. I wish, in the first place, to
state that the motion I make is wholly unconnected
with the individual whose name has been so often
mentioned. It neither proceeds from his suggestion,
nor from any communication direct or indirect on my
part, or on the part of any individual with whom I am
connected, and at the present moment I do not
know what may be the feelings or the wishes of that
individual. I need not therefore say it is uncon-
nected with any party feeling. I am ready to
admit that I am making the motion in discharge
of the duty I owe to the House. There is no
individual more ready to express to the House the
obligations I owe to the Government than 1 am ; it
is therefore not out of hostility to them that I bring
forward the motion, but it is with reference to
the tranquillity of Ireland, and the Act lately pass-
ed. I trust that when Honourable Members come
to consider the case, they will find, that though they
were in a majority on a late occasion that Mr.
O'Connell was not entitled to his seat, vet that they
will be induced to say it is a state of the law that calls
for a remedy. I should not have brought forward
this motion at all Lad it not been for the motion
of the Hon. Gentleman opposite. I wish to refer
to circumstances which took place on the Catholic
Relief Bill when in the Committee. Gentle-
men will recollect that in the Committee on that
Bill, an Hon. Friend of mine, the Member for Dublin,
was disposed to suggest to the House the propriety of
amending that particular clause of the Bill which
applies to Roman Catholics elected before the
Act not having taken their seats, in fact, that
part of the Act which applies specifically though
not by name, to the case of Mr. O'Connell. On
that occasion I stated to the House, as I was re-
quested to do by Mr. O'Connell, that he did not
wish that any question personal to himself should be
introduced on the passing of that Bill calculated to
intercept the progress of the measure, from which
he
_expected benefit to his country. It will be
recollected that I distinctly stated at the time, that
in making that communication, I made it merely
upon his part, and expressed no opinion of my own,
direct or indirect, on it. As this point might
be mistaken, I will not say, misrepresented, I took
the liberty of referring, with regard to this very
subject, to a Right Hon. Friend of mine, a member
Of his Majesty's Government, who is not now pre-
Sent, who spoke to me after I had made my com-
munication, and observed with what caution I had re-
served my own opinion. I admit if Mr. 0' Connell were
now to be a petitioner at the bar, if he were now
to seek that relief which I shall ask for him,
the declaration he then made might be pleaded
at the bar. But the present measure does
not proceed from him, but from grounds of public
policy, as material to the peace of Ireland. No act
of Mr. O'Connell—no act of mine, if I had
been inconsiderate enough to commit myself, ought
to distract the House from this great question which
is to convey to the country the greatest Quantum
of relief. I come, Sir, in the first instance; to con-
sider the proposition of my Honourable Friend
the Solicitor-General. It was on Tuesday last
that after a very protracted debate, which had
taken place on the Monday, an order was made for
the attendance of Mr. O'Connell; Mr. O'Connell
attended; you, Sir, communicated to him the reso-
lution of the House, and the order consequently
made upon it. Mr. O'Connell, at the hour of
four o'clock on that day was not in official
possession of the decision of Parliament. Without
notice the Solicitor-General moves that a new writ
do issue for the election of a Member for Clare,
or, in other words, he moves that Mr. O'Connell,
who had been duly elected, should be driven to a
new election. I cannot but complain of the
breathless haste with which the Solicitor-Ge-
neral proceeded. The House is here called on
to act in its severest capacity. The proposition
of the Solicitor-General was a proposition which,
in point of fact, would have been imperative at the

thne; the Learned GenL now finds himself compelled
to withdraw his proposition, and submit a new one
applicable to the state of the law as it now is ;
but which is in itself equally objectionable.
And now let us see what this proposition is.
There are gentlemen who seem to consider that it
is part of the law of the land, that upon a repre-
sentative refusing to take the oaths. the election is
to be considered void, and that a new election must
take place. Now, I apprehend the Learned Solici-
tor-General will not contend for that. I think he
will admit that it is a very different case to one in
which Mr. O'Connell might have sat and voted in
this house, and then have refused to comply with the
forms. This is an act, which if it be to be justified at
all, must be justified by the will and pleasure of the
House ; there is no law upon the point—it rests en-
tirely upon expediency, and that expediency is en-
tirely within the province of the House. The Hon.
and Learned Gent. in moving this proposition did not
state one single argument in recommendation. It
stands now as given from the chair, simply upon re-
ference to the precedent then referred to of the case
of Archdale. It is, no doubt, however, competent
for the House to use its own discretion. The-case
of Archdale is the only one that applies; the other
cases mentioned come totally under a different
principle. The individuals in the other cases were
Members of Parliament who were called upon to
take oaths; those oaths were of a different character,
and the whole proceedings were totally inapplicable
to the case now before the House. Mr. Arch-
dale had not taken his seat, he refused to
be sworn, and Mr. O'Connell therefore comes
within the principle that applies to his case.—

I could have wished that the case had rested
still upon the declaration of Mr. O'Connell refusing
to take the oath, for then he would have exercised
his discretion whether he would or would not have
asked for the Chiltern Hundreds ; but by the step
taken by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman no such
opportunity has been afforded to him. At four
o'clock in the afternoon he learns that the House
has decided against him, and in five minutes
afterwards the new writ is moved for.—(Hear.)
It is said that the su,pension of the new writ might
have been moved for, and that then it would have
rested with the House to say, whether or not that sus•
pension should be granted, regard being had to the ful-
ness of the House. Now, I confess, I can see no force
in that argument, unless the electors of the county of
Clare had applied to the House, and complained that
they were unrepresented, and called on the House

.
to issue a new writ. The electors of the county of
Clare have been unrepresented on a former occasion,
so that if the doctrine of the fulness of the House
renders it necessary that all counties should be
represented, then that of Clare has a right to
complain of the negligence of the House on
a former occasion. Clare was represnted by a gen-
tleman holding the Colonial Office and discharging
Colonial duties I believe; but if I be wrong in
that, I know that it has been represented by an
Hon. Friend of my own, who was at that very time
discharging official duties at the Court of Stock-
holm. What I now complain of is the issuing the new
writ without complaint, and without any argument
in support of it having been addressed to the
House. Such a step is bringing the House of
Commons into the exercise of a prerogative which it
has the right or has not the right to exercise in
contact with a single individual ; by it, you
are running the risk of making Mr. O'Connell a
political martyr, and of raising afresh the disturb-
ances in Ireland, of which we have lately heard so
much. I believe the whole of the community are
ready to sympathise with Mr. O'Connell. If the
exercise of the prerogative of the House against nn
individual (I mean in the case of Wilkes), created
agitation throughout the country, how much
more is that agitation to be expected and felt
in the case of Mr. O'Connell, and how much greater
is the necessity of guarding against it ? He asked
you in the address which he so powerfully made to
the House, what you meant to do with him ? Did
you mean to make him a political outlaw? I will
not repeat what he stated, but I will contend, if
there are any here who suppose this to be
regarded as a transaction simply between the House
and Mr. O'Connell, • such individuals are extremely
ignorant of the state of Ireland. Mr. O'Connell, it
is true, is the Parliamentary Representative of the
county of Clare, but he is bound up with the sympa-
thies and feelings of the Catholic people of Ireland.
The Hon. Gentleman then proceeded. The House
had heard much of the agitation that lately existed
in Ireland, and they now had many proofs that that
agitation had happily subsided. He would, there-
fore, call on the House to consider whether the step
now about to be taken would not again raise that
agitation. The House during the present Session
passed three of the most important measures ever
brought under its consideration, he meant the
Catholic Relief Bill ; the Forty-shilling Freeholders'
Disfranchisement Bill; and the Bill for the sup-
pression of the Catholic Association ; but if a new
election were now to take place, the good effects of
hese measures would be totally destroyed, it would
raise newagitators that would disturb the country from
one end to the other, for there was not a Catholic in
Ireland but who would feel sensibly the wrongs in-
flicted on the man who had fought his battles, and
without whose instrumentality he never would hare
obtained his rights.—(Hear, hear.)—And where
would be so good an opportunity for the Catholics
to display their sympathy as on the hustings for the
county of Clare, where they would feel the injury
inflicted on one of their own body, as one inflicted
on the whole community. After a few other obser-
vations, in w:.ich the Hon. Gentleman strongly stated
his opinion of the injurious effects a new election
would have in disturbing the tranquillity of Ireland,
he concluded by moving for leave to bring in a Bill

to amend that part of the Act which related to this
particular case, so as to enable the Hon. Member
for Clare to take his seat without a new election.
Lord MORPETH seconded the motion. The
great object of this motion was to prevent Mr.
O'Connell from being made an exception to their
general rules. They bad an opportunity now of
acting in the general spirit of the Relief Bill, if not
to its letter, and therefore he willingly seconded the
motion.

The amendment and the original motion having

been put from the Chair.
General GASCOYNE trusted he and his Hon.
Friend (Mr. S. Rice) would come to the same con-
_ _

elusion Of amending the Bill. The rights of Mr.
O'Connell, be must say, were sacrificed to a com-
promise between the Gentlemen on the right and
those on the left. He supported this individual,
because he thought there never occurred in Parlia-
ment a case of so much hardship and injustice. It
was said by his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Secretary
Peel) that when the Bill came into Committee, all
the Acts proposed to be repealed would be men-
tioned in the margin ; but it now appeared that the
Acts affecting Roman Catholics were not all re-
pealed. If the Member for Clare was to he ex-
cluded from his seat, they ought to consider whether
he wea not liable to still further pains and penalties.
Expediency was not to be put out of the question
here. It was the great argument in support of the
Relief Bill. They were told by his Hon. Friend
(Mr. S. Rice) that if they determined to exclude
Mr. O'Connell, agitation might again arise in Ire-
land.—(Hear, hear.) That was the observation of
his Hon. Friend, and he was right to urge it in
argument, for it was the principal ground on which
the Relief Bill rested. If this measure should be
agreed to, he would suggest one or two alterations,
which, in his opinion, would improve other parts of
the Bill, and give more satisfaction to the Catho-
lics. The lateness of the Session was no objection.
The Bill might go through ail its stages in two or
three weeks. There was a greater probability now
of improving the 811, because all agitation upon the
subject had in a great measure subsided. There
was a clause which left it open to amendment or re-
peal if necessary—(A laugh.)—He had some
doubt whether, after having refused to take the
oath, the Hon. Member could again be elected. If
that was the case, the punishment would be still
mere severe. He could not consent to visit the

!his of those who,petitaps, subverted the Constitu-
tion, on a man who only exerted himself to have
restored to those of his own religion the privilges
of which he considered them unjustly deprived.
Mr. R. ('OLBORNE thought it would be ob-
jectionable to issue a new writ immediately. But
the proposition of the Member for Limerick was
still more objectionable. He proposed a Bill to re-
medy an inconvenience which they all distinctly saw
before. His Hon. Friend came down with a pro-
position, while the Relief Bill was passing through
the House, that the case of Mr. O'Connell should
not for a moment interfere. He thought it then mag-
nanimous on the party of Mr. O'Connell; but it
would now appear as if he was oily hanging back
till the Bill passed. lie might be asked, whether
he had any alternative to propose. It might be said,
what difficulty is there in suspending the writ, and
he confessed he saw no difficulty in such a step.
They had an example in the case of East Retford,
of a writ suspended for two or three years. Mr.
O'Connell might, after a time, take that oath.—
hear.)—lie did not like the manner of his
refusal at the bar, but others had taken it as con-
scientious as Mr. O'Connell. Were there not other
possible ways of getting rid of the difficulty ? Mr. •
O'Connell might be raised in his profession, and he
knew no way of producing a vacancy for Clare that
would give more satisfaction. He did not approve
either of the preposition of the Solicitor-General, or
of that of his lion. Friend (Mr. S. Rice).
Mr. HUSKISSON must oppose the proposition
of the Hon. Member for Limerick. By the vote of
the House it was irrevocably settled that the Mem-
ber for Clare must take the oath of supremacy. In
the course of the discussion on the subject they
were frequently reminded that they were acting in
a judicial capacity. He listened with the greatest
attention to the arguments of Mr. O'Connell, and
of those Hon. Members whose legal habits and abi-
lities were most likely to enable him to come to a
just and proper decision. lie considered himself to
be acting upon that-occasion as a juryman, and if
there was a doubt he thought he should give it in
favour of Mr. O'Connell. At one time he cer-
tainly had some doubts, but he was much influenced
by the argument of the Member for Peterborough
(Sir J. Scarlett), which altered his opinion. lle
certainly did think the Relief Bill would exclude
Mr. O'Connell, but as there were doubts upon the
subject, he thought it better to allow these doubts
to remain than risk the success of the great measure.
Now, however, that the House had come to a deci-
sion on the point, they had no course but to affirm
that decision. They should have followed the pre-
cedent of 1801. Mr. Horne Tooke was then re-
turned to Parliament. The Member for Bucking-
ham made a motion for a new writ, on the ground
that he was in Holy Orders. The Committee be-
fore which the question came produced a variety of
legal authorities, from Lord Cake down to Mr.
Justice Blackstone, for the purpose of proving that
a person in holy orders could not sit and vote in
that House. Lord Sidmouth then filled the chair.
He said he had no doubt of his ineligibility, and
that he was prepared to affirm the proposition of
the Committee. Lord Ellenborough, Mr. Perceval,
and Lord Stowell, were of the same opinion. Doubt
was entertained by Lord Grey, Lord Erskine, and
others. Lord Sidmouth, under all the circum-
stances, said the better way would be to allow Mr.
Tooke to take his seat, arid that he should guard in
future against a similar occurrence. Mr. Tooke sat
the whole of that Parliament, and a more quiet or
harmless Member certainly never sat in that !louse,
whatever might have been his previous character.
Had the House acted on the same principle in this
case lie should have been glad of it. The House,
however, having come to a decision, he thought they
must affirm the decision.

Mr. FERGUSSON thought the Member for
Limerick had taken a most unfortunate course. If
it produced agitation it would be attributable to the
motion itself. But he saw no reason why it should
produce agitation. If the Bill excluded Mr. O'Con-
nell, it originated in Mr. O'Connell himself, who
was represented by his Hon. Friend as renouncing
all personal considerations which might stand in the
way of the measure. Ile was a friend to concilia-
tion, but if they now receded from the late Act the
effect would be the very contrary, and be an en-
couragement to future agitation. He was equally
adverse to the proposition of his Hon. Friend near
him (Mr. R. Colborne), for if the writ was sus-
pended, it would only keep up the agitation, and
give an opportunity to those who were inimical to
the great measure, of frittering it away by amend-
ments.

Mr. HusKlssoN explained.
Mr. LITTLETON regretted that such a motion
as this was submitted to the House. He admitted
the services of Mr. O'Connell to his Catholic coun-
trymen, but he had no claim to have his individual
case admitted into the Act of Relief.
Lord NUGENT-could not vote for the proposi-
tion of his Hon. Fele:A (Mr. S. Rice.) He voted
for the Catholic Relief Bill, though there were
some provisions to which he felt objections, and
among the rest that now under consideration ;
but he should not think it right to turn round and
say, that the Bill must be altered to meet the parti-
cular case in question. He was a party to no com-
promise of principle, but he felt himself called upon
to make concessions for the purpose of securing a
great public good. He saw nothing in the common
law, in the statute law, or in the law of Parliament,
which made it necessary to issue a new writ. The
course he should adopt was, to vote against both
propositions, that of the Solicitor-General, and of
his Hon. Friend (Mr. S. Rice).
Sir J. MACKINTOSH said if the motion of
his Hon. Friend (Mr. S. Rice) should be pressed to
a division he would support it. Certainly he did
know that the Bill would exclude Mr. O'Connell ;
and though be regretted it, he voted for the great
measure, lest its success might be endangered by any
minor consideration. He came to the House the
other night, determined to avail himself of any doubts
to vote for Mr. O'Connell's taking his seat, for he
considered him the greatest benefactor to England
and leeland.—(Hear.)—Seeing no reason to enter-
tain any such doubts, he declined to vote at all. As
it was now determined by the House that he was
excluded under the Bill, he had no objection to such
an amendment of the measure as would admit him
to take his seat. As to the pledge given to his con-
stituents by Mr. O'Connell, there was nothing in it
inconsistent with the character of a lawyer, or a
man of honour. He thought he might sit and vote
under the law as it stood; and such being his opinion,
he was perfectly justified in declaring it. The lan-
guage of Mr. O'Connell proved the purity of his in-
tentions towards his country.—(Hear, hear.)—cut
after all he wished the present motion would not be
pressed.
Mr. W. lIORTON concurred in the wish ex-
pressed by his Hon. Friend who had just concluded.
He never gave a vote with greater reluctance than
that of the other night ; he wished Mr. O'Connell
to be placed in that House ; but he nevertheless
had a duty to discharge, and in discharging it he
meant no personal hostility to Mr. O'Connell. The-
Catholic Relief Act had reference only to persons
elected after its passing, and without any regard
whatsoever to the Hon. and Learned Member for
Clare. In fact it was not specially directed against
any individual. The qualifications to sit in that
House were the oaths taken before the Relief Act,
and the refusal to take theth of necessity induced the
rejection of Mr. O'Connell. The House of Com-
' mons deliberately decided the question, and he
thought the motion of the Learned Solicitor-Gene-
ral should be carried.
Mr. S. RICE said, as the question involved
some feeling of honour and good faith, he
would, with the consent of the House, now
withdraw it. He wished to avoid discontent, and
if he had erred he begged the pardon of the House.
Mr. Secretary PEEL had no personal feeling
upon the subject, and lie was only induced to say a
word upon it in consequence of what had fallen from
an Hon. and Learned Gentleman. The motion
proposed was strictly according to precedent and
; analogy; and whether the Calte of Monson and

Fanshawe were exactly analogous, all ho could gat
was, that while they were not expelled, new write -:
were issued, and such was the case with Mr. Amite
dale. That of Mr. O'Connell's was similar to Mr.
Archdale's, and they dealt with him in the 613.
way. In a recent case, he meant that (if Mr. •
Southey, a new writ was issued upon his refusal td
qualify ; that refusal, however, he admitted to lig
on different grounds of disqualification. All the
precedents adduced had been since the Revolution ;
they had been followed up in the present case; the
privileges of the House as well as its dignity required
them to be so, and therefore Mr. O'Connell could
not complain either of harshness or :severity. Air.
O'Connell was elected before the conclusion of the ,
last Session of Parliament. He was in Londen
.
since his election. No motion was made on his be •
half;until he himself had recently thought proper t
press it on the House. The House hdd deeidedPi • •
dicially, and by that decision the new Wilt fint4 °
necessity be issued. It was said in certain qiiatteti
cut of this House that inducements were held otif
swell the majority against his admission; but to 0-;
assertion he gave the most peremptory and decide'
denial.—(Hear, hear, hear.)—lt was regarded ens
tirely as a judicial question—( Hear, hear)—and in
taking the course the House had pursued, the ee
slightest harshness or severity was not intended, ,
towards Mr. O'Connell. Mr. O'Connell should be
considered as a mere individual Member of Partin'
ment, and regardless of persons, this House he %rel.
sure would fearlessly discharge its duty, He ha
heard the speech of the Hon. Member (Mr. S. Rice)
with some regret. It was a bitter satire on the
tentions of Government, which he (Mr. Pee,!)
thought was undeserved, and which perhaps tee
lion. Member (Mr. S. Rice) had not himself in'
tended. lie gave the Hon. Member credit for tot
wishing to excite di,satisfaction, or retard the con' ,
ciliation, or under-rate the importance of the Cathel •
lie Relief Bill; and he was satisfied that, without
indulging in any prophetic expressions, that harmonl
and good feeling not only would, but had already,: .
most materially resulted from it. The Hon. Mct°
ber (General Gascoyne) seemed to take a different
view of the subject. That Hon. Member must haVe
.
greatly at heart the interest of the county of Lan;
caster, and the wealth and property of the town 01.
Liverpool; and as, in charity to the misguided pea'
plc in a portion of Lancashire, the Government 1.
were deermined put down all violence, he (Mrs
Peel) felt happy to say, that in answer to a letter
written •by him to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland,
the Noble Lord was pleased to say, that one regl"
ment of cavalry and two of infantry could be imme,
diately placed at the disposal of his Majesty's
vernment.—(Hear, hear.)—This was one proofs e"
least, that a better feeling prevailed in Ireland, sg
the effect of the Catholic Relief Bill ; he could 110"
hesitatingly state, that the better orders were mar:
closely approximated, and he sincerely hoped the; -•
their example would soon have a beneficial Ow'
upon those who were considered their inferil
With respect to the question immediately before ,g,,,,
House, he considered not the result of a new elite'
tion for. Clare, particularly if that were to be CO
pared with the due assertion and maintenance of the
privileges of that House.—(Hear, Ogg/
that the Disfranchisement Bill was agreed to quietlP
Past animosities were already in a great degree fea;
gotter. He rejoiced that his Hoe. Friend (MP' d
Rice) had' withdrawn hie motion; and he hoped
that rio discussion on the Relief Bill would be re:.
opened, almost within a mouth of the period g'
which it was carried.—(Question, question.) t
The motion that Mr. Speaker do issue his "IL
for a new election for the county of Clare, le
room of Daniel O'Connell, Esq. who had refused t.°
take the oaths necessary to sit and vote in
House was put to the vote, when
Mr. BROUGHAM said, that if Mr. O'Connell
had taken his seat before the issuing of the new writ' •
no penal clauses could have attached to him-
his refusal to take the oaths ax• now existingdi And
justify the issue of a new writ. The precedent an
the common law did not touch the case of the Hod'
Member foe Clare, although he-admitted that acting-.
upon their privileges, the House could act as they
had done. In the case of -Mr. Archdale he refuse'+':
to take the oaths. Mr. O'Cormell did not refuge
to take the new oaths—Mr. O'Connell, though rel
fusing to take the old oaths, could still exerciee • •
the privileges du Member except sitting and voting ;
and looking at the case of Sir Joseph Jekyll, 91
1715, it was admitted, that though he was not
sworn, he was declared eligible to sit in a secret
committee. It was a matter of mere discretion for
the House to issue a new writ, and if it. were to e
issued, the sooner the better, because he had no•••
doubt it would restore Mr. O'Connell to his seat in
this House.—(Hear, hear.)
RigChotloinito.ln.SSlßecTreHtaOryllor
stabteegigioetdtotointcluatlgiteioinn !Ebb;
repose which he had anticipated as to the quiet
Ireland. He thought that some little further tinte
should be taken, before the state of Ireland could be
considered quite delightful.
Mr. Secretary PEEL said he never indulgeg
any prophecies as to the quiet of Ireland; ;
said was, that such was the improved state 0 Rita' •
land, that three regiments could be with safety
drawn.

Mr. S. RICE explained.
Mr. C. W. WN IN said it appeared doubtful t:
him if the better course would not have been toll°
first discharged Mr. O'Connell from his attentbolci3
in that House, than to shape it in its present forill"°

(Question, question.)
Mr. B. CLARKE said he had not the slighte,gt
doubt but that the Catholic Relief Bill would collier.
the most esset,tial advantages on Ireland.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL should tl4
have thought it necessary to have said any thil
more upon this subject except to disclaim that will°
he hoped was unnecessary, viz. that no feeling °.
personal hostility, nor any feeling in the remote"
degree allied to harshness personally to Mr. O'Con;
nell, had influenced him in submitting the preeeP
motion to the House.
Mr. BROUGHAM made an observation aer°,
the table to which the Solicitor-General returned
answer; but the low tone of voice in which bet
the Honourable Members spoke rendered them
audible in the gallery.
The question that a new writ be issued for
Of
election of a knight of the shire for the countC,
Clare, in the room of Daniel O'Connell, Esq., ":g
being returned from that county before the Pass,";;;
of an Act for the relief of his Majesty's 131"-, to
Catholic subjects, had refused to qualify himse",ho
sit and vote in that House by not taking the citiej
prescribed by the House," was then put, and 01
without a division.

PRESENTATION OF PETITIONS.
Colonel DAVIES, after observing that it has
expedient a limited time should be assigned for 11g
presentation of petitions to that House, and he Y,lOl
alluded to the great increase of business which 910
of late years devolved upon Parliament, moved °le
n° motion, upon presenting a petition, should be eof
tertained after five o'clock p.m., until the order° •
the day should be disposed of.
Mr. E. DAVENPORT supported the motion
his Hon. Friend. this
Mr. LITTLETON felt it his duty to leave
question in the breast of the Chairman of the 0°1;0
convinced as he was that the present system (1 •
most conducive to the interests of the public' :fp
that it ought to be left to the chair itself, as II the
cretional point, when it was expedient to wave es
standing orders of the House under circumatelits,
of emergency which ought to controul the ei
blished rder of proceedings.
Colonoel DAVIES, in reply, stated his deter°ll'
nation to press te question to a division. OOP
The galley was cleared by order of the SPEA- of
but it appears no division took place: and on e
return we found that the motion had been lost.
BUILDING ACT.
Mr. PALLMER said, that for morithan five eel
past the Magistracy of Surrey had felt it nee d
to direct its attention to- the immense indea°Bot
buildings which had taken place in the count'', glio:
to the manner in which they were constructed W

referents to the public eafety and individual protec-
tion, -An inquiry into the manner in which the duties -of the district surveyors were discharged,
their powers, and their legal redress as provided by
the existing state of the law, and the discovery of a eottiplete change in the mode of constructing houses,
convinced them that this subject required a minute
investigation ; and in 1824 a report was made to the :
Quarter Sessions of Surrey, by a Committee (com-
posed of Magistrates, many of whom had great
knowledge
and experience upon the subject), that
the existing law required much alteration, and re-
e°mmending that an application should be
made to
the Magistracy of Middlesex to co-operate in the
inyestigetion and remedy its defects. A Committee
" Middlesex Magistrates was accordingly appointed
kid the opinions and recommendations of the joint
emmaets were laid before the Secretary of State
ih..',lle Mantle Department. That Right Hon. Gent.
bat it proper to refer the matter, through the
,OYElrnissioners of Woods and Forests, to a surveyor
2‘ great eminence and expelience, who has given
lUch'oe his time and talents to its considera-
an, and. I have . his authority for saying, that professional men cordially concur in the necessity
of an alteration of the law. It was under such
!ailed' opinions thus collected that he proposed to
"bmit t° the House the propriety of an amendment of
the lave.. If the House should permit the introduc-
tion Of the Bill, it was his intention to have it cir-
culated for consideration during the recess, in order
cthat it might be taken up early next Session, either
ya Committee or the House, as might be deemed
pedient.. Having stated the circumstances under
twhich the measure came recommended to the House,
7(Mr..Pellmer) .would at present refrain from
j"'riff more than to add a general outline of the oh-
cets. which the Bill intended to embrace, namely, a
malPlification of the present Act, and the omission
'2f those parts which have become obsolete; provi.•
:1011i against the present most dangerous alterations
‘nd communications with the flues in party walls ;
irovisioes for the exact execution of the duties of
strict surveyors, their appointments, qualifications,
'pIY enumerations, responsibility, and returns; to the defects defects in the present law as to legal redresps
:Nast defaulters, and between parties aggrieved;
ai_"%ther provisions to guard against fire, and for the
l:ply of water and the means of escape in case of
t calamity; more effectual power over dilapidated
~druitioui buildings, from which many fatal acci-
Znts have recently happened; and the means of
do g,- by all proper precautions in the construe-
aof theatres chapels, and other large buildings,
dreadful those d
accidents, one of which, in a recent
ag alesnable case, had been followed by a loss of life
adds of property to a frightful extent. There was
tud if power to extend. the provisions of the Act
'arg°...and populous places; and it had been en-
!avoured to provide for such construction in future
°tit chiemies as shall at once assist in prevention of
4141 obviate the necessity of the employment of
childreniricleaning them.
Leave given to bring in a Bill.
ei Yu the motion for a Committee of the whole
Actttas e on the augmentation of the salaries of Judges
,
th Lis DRUMMOND was apprehensive that
of the of this motion might stand in the way
'ne meditated improvements in the existing laws
84°tland. It was most desirable that a measure
1)f this tenure should not meet with any impediment
from
a contemporaneous act of this nature. A re-
tresentation had been made to the Legislature on the
tesaitY of introducing the trial by jury into other
i?urts in Scotland beside the Jury Court. In fact,
;bad been reported by the Commissioners appointed
ZSit and decide on this subject, that it would be
trernely desirable that the trial by jury should
itut-an integral part of the knee:fiction of Scotland.
Project had been contemplated, of uniting the
latisdiction of the Admiralty Court in Scotland with
:
ceucurrent jurisdiction in that country. How these
ery desirable objects could be blended, ought to be
me LI
~,,coted before the Hausa resolved on the propriety
'''easing the salaries of the present Judges.
ilb-fhe CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
tsisterveds' that the question before them was one to-
, is Pdietinet from 'that to which the Hon. Member
had addressed his observations. It referred to an
n,.gmentation of salary on the ground of the increase
4ctive professional duty. This he believed could
hot .
Th'enletl. It could not, therefore, interfere
tvithbe the proposed alteration in the law of Scotland;
for. so far it only apportioned increase of salary in
Proportion to the carefully appreciated value of past
tteriices.
Mr. BROUGHAM was desirous of fuller infor-
thation on the subject of the constitution and the
extent of.the labour of these courts in Scotland. He
had possessed himself of some valuable information
en the subject of their jurisdiction, and also on that
of their activity in the despatch of business; and he
should therefore like to have it stated from authentic
aources •what were the days of the week and the
*tenth
a of the.yearwhen these courts were pleased
,4.- exempt themselves by their own order from duty
hevery. kind. ; -According to information which he
ad reeeived, these Judges, like other more hard-
vl.orkingindividuals—(a laugh)—forbore alllabour on
e.t Monday, and partly so on the Saturday ; on
'hilrlatter 'day it was. very generally the habit of
the judges to employ themselves for the after-part
0r the day in that species of enjoyment which was
eet
ten °ten to them jointly with less educated and in-
tellectual persons.—(Laughter.)—They were re.-
t kable, too, for the strict observance of public
1,1-erma festivals, insomuch so, that they forebore
Rete
,44,ag for three or four weeks about Christmas..
i„-m'd not mean to make any allusion to the Justi-
-1 Court of Scotland, which went the circuit.
The -constitution of Judges in Scotland was rare,
4Precedeated, and curious. There were Judges
b„ single gown ; there were others of a double
VII, who tried both civil and criminal causes; but
there were others who, in one respect, imitated the
jolleNtidled bashaws of Turkey, and enjoyed a triple
totletidiction---(A laugh.)—All these matters ought
to 'e before the Legislature ere it was called on to
sli d
/Ileee the question of higher salary topudges,
141:
°, it would seem, had so much time on their
hod the instances to which he alluded. He
it w"-"" these facts would be laid before the House ere
tohl" called on to decide the proportion of salary
So _ch it ought to vote to Judges whose duties were
iirferwhelming.—(Hear.)
the ERGUSSON thought it doubtful whether
rittilwillesent Judges in Courts in Scotland were tide-
'.
4e,r Paid for their labour. The labour of the
lt;` ln4,4lldges, out of Court, was infinitely greater
Sgr~ft at of the English Judges. He therefore
with the Right Hon. Gentleman, that it was
Put the to do justice to those learned personages.
had:"C last four years the English Puisne Judges
Jett received a salary of' 5,5001. a year, whilst the
sehuaea of Session in Scotland, who required a larger
Judges to keep up their rank than the English
hae3 and who had many more duties to perform,
Juat ;0001. a year. There was another
class of
they ea, who deserved a higher remuneration than
tlisto.le,ceived--he meant the Judges of the Con-
tettje".,t Courts of Scotland, whose jurisdiction ex-
leqi all over Scotland, who decided on the most
try, .ttat questions known to the law of any court-
Year, Whilst they received a salary of only 600/..a.
k flub equal to that of a third or fourth clerk
Altelen°l Tee' •
tiop f --e,SKISSON was surprised that a proposi-
or
,hato bee
brought
such important alterations should
4iseen orought forward on the eve of the Session...
Sire of IFela the universal opinion that it was thed de-
to
a: close Majesty's Ministers to bring this Sessionf r
the best ras early as possible, he dared to say . for
and relief teagons. Many measures of amelioration
ylehri„,,s of inquiry, had been course-
ttliii°7sti.erp" °,1.1. in orderas not to prolong thethdeistciumse-
chosen f "'lament. And yet this was
Judicial for considering an aumentation of the whole
qeotle establishment of Scotland. The Hon.
1114 House Mau °Pposite (Mr. Fergusson) had reminded
1 tngh.ah , that four years ago the salaries of the
net the udgeshad been increased, perhaps beyond
'ten ell"tY.would have been if the proposition had
But
at. the present moment.—(Hear.)—

what was to be inferred from the silence of his
Majesty's 'Ministers r=?specting the Scotch Judges
for these . four years ? Why, that there was no
pressing necessity for this augmentation.—(Neer,
hear.)—There might be very considerable improve-
ments in the system of the Scotch Courts. There
were 21 Judges ; their circuits were very different
from the circuits of England; the Chief Justice did
not go to the circuits at all. Then the Court of
Exchequer was hardly a Court. l'he salaries of the
Judges, however, had been tripled since 1793. A
singe gown in 1792 received 7901.; now 2,0001.
A system which sent so many appeals to the High
Court of Appeal stood in need of some improve-
ment, arid the worst way to improve it was to in-
crease the salaries of the establishment.—(Hear.)—
No ground for the increase appeared from the
dearness of the articles of necessity. The general
complaint of the country was, that its present dis-
tress was occasioned by the cheapness of commodities :
this, he thought, was a reason why the measure
should be postponed to another session, to be con-
sidered with reference to the duties of the Judges
and the whole establishment.

Mr. PEEL observed, that the question merely
was, whether his Right Hun. Friend (the Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer) should be allowed to state his
proposition in the Committee. Although the Right
Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Huskisson) had proposed to
treat the subject dispassionately and impartially, he
(Mr. Peel) had never heard a speech in which the
question was so completely prejudged.
Mr. HUSKISSON—" I referred to the time at
which it was brought forward."
Mr. PEEL—The Right Hon. Gentleman re-
ferred to the increase of the salaries of the English
Judges, and lamented that the increase should have
been more than the absolute necessity of the case
required. But if it be so, the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman was then a Member of his Majesty's Go-
vernment.

Mr. HUSKISSON—" I said, perhaps, more
than the present circumstances of the country would
have authorised."

Mr. PEEL—That may be; that is another
question. The proper time for the Right Hon.
Gentleman to have objected was, when the subject
was before the Government. With respect to the
present case, it had been the usual practice to make
the salaries of the Scotch Judges bear a certain pro-
portion to those of the English Judges; and when
the increase of the latter was made, it was in the
contemplation of his Noble Friend, then at the head
of the Government, to increase the salaries of the
Scotch Judges, which various causes had conspired
to prevent. He had been called upon to advise his
Majesty as to two vacancies on the bench. All he
asked was, that his Right Hon. Friend might be
permitted to state his proposition.
Mr. FERGUSSON explained.
Mr. HUSKI:!,,SON explained. He did not la-
ment the augmentation of the salaries of the English
Judges. He merely stated that the year 1825 was
somewhat different from the year 1829, and that he
did not believe there would have existed in 1829
the same facilities and inducements to bring the
measure before Parliament.

Sir JOSEPH YORKE was not about to give
any grave opinion on the subject; but he must say
that the argument of the Right Hon. Gentleman
who spoke last, as to the difference between 182.5
and 1829, was not without weight. But he was
surprised to hear what had been said about the diffi-
culty of getting persons to fill these offices. What I
was there no Scotch lawyer to be found, in 1829,
who would become a Judge without an increase of
salary ? His Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Peel) had
asked, with all that gravity which so well befitted
him, and which he so much admired, " shall we not
after increasing the salaries of the English Judges,
bring the Scotch Judges square with them, consi-
lering how much they have to do, and the impossi-
bility of finding any others to fill their situations ?"
He (Sir J. Yorke) was disposed to place consider-
able confidence in the Right Hon. Gentleman ; he
admired his talents, he admired his eloquence, and
the undeviating consistency which had marked his
conduct; but he was sorry to say,—he wished to
use parliamentary language—that after this point he
did not believe him.—(A loud laugh.)—As to the
one vacaney=or the multiple of one—on the bench,
which had not been filled up, he was convinced that
if a hundred Scotch Judges were to be de-
funct to-morrow, there would be abundant oppor-
tunities of getting others. The Hon. and Learned
Gentleman opposite (Mr. Fergusson), who was a
Scotch lawyer, and who had been improving him-
self by contact with the wise men of the east, kad
told the House of the heavy duties of the Scotch
Judges, and the various matters they had to con-
sult about, of the prodigious mass of matters re-
lating to crime and property which came before
them ; and he thought it would strengthen their wits
to give them a considerable quantity of money.—(A
Laugh.) But he (Sir J. Yorke) thought that the
poorer a man was the sharper he was, and that he
ought not to blow out his jacket with roast beef on
a Sunday, but to keep him spare and thin, in order
that his brain might be in a clear and healthy con-
dition; in order that the sensorium might not be
overloaded with the sanguineous humour, but that
he might be able at all times of the day to give a
clear opinion. (A laugh.) He therefore differed
from his Right Hon. Friend, and also from the
Learned Sage from the East—(alaugh)—and should
give his negative to the motion for going into- a
Committee. As to the remark of his Right Hon.
Friend about the Right Hon. Gentleman near him
(Mr. Huskisson) being a member of the Govern-
ment when the salaries of the English Judges were
increased, he (Sir Joseph Yorke) could conceive
that that Right Hon. Gentleman might have had
his opinion on the subject, and that it was not quite
necessary that he should say, " Oh, I agree with
you cordially; oh, for Heaven's sake, do just as you
like; I agree to every thing." (A laugh.) There-
fore it was too much to fly out upon the Right Hon.
Gentleman and say, " Why, you know you were a
member of the Government at the time." (The
sharp and snappish tone with which this was uttered
created much mirth.) He did say that . this was
going on too far; here they had tonight a measure
coming forward to reduce the income of the coun.
try (he meant that respecting sugar); and if they
were now to increase the salaries of Judges, while
they were cutting at a clerk here, and cutting at a
clerk there, they would be stopping the spigot and
letting it run out at the bung-hole. (Loud laughter.)
Mr. PEEL observed, that the facetiousness of his
Hon. Friend rendered it impossible to take offence
at what he said. He had, however, fallen into a
mistake in assuming that the object of his Right
Hon. Friend's proposition was to bring the Scotch
Judges (as he expressed it) square with those of
England. This mistake showed how necessary it
was that the House should hear what the proposi-

tion was.
Mr. KENNEDY made a few remarks which we
could not hear.

Mr. HUME agreed with the Right Hon. Gent.
oppOsite (Mr. Huskisson), that, after the Govern-
ment had posponed almost every plan for the good
of the country, divesting themselves almost of all
the duty of a Government, on the ground that it was
so late in the session, it was most extraordinary that
they should, at the present time, come forward with
a proposition for adding to the expenditure of the
country by increasing the salary of the Scotch
Judges. They ought to have attended to the peti-
tions of the people before considering the salaries of
Scotch Judges.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, but no
division took place. .
The House hav:ng gone into a Committee,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
said, that he had hoped his proposition would have
met with general concurrence; and, though he now
rose with somewhat a different impression, yet he
could not think that the House would receive it
otherwise than favourably. He looked upon his
proposition rather as the discharge of a debt that had
been long owing, than in any other light. The
House had, almost unanimously, in. 1826, agreed to
an augmentation of the salaries of the Judges in

England ; he said unanimously, because, though twe
divisions took place, one of them was upon the pro-
priety of certain regulations, and the other was
upon 4001. or 5001. of augmentation. When he
recollected this fact,—when he recollected the fact
that Government were then asked why they did not
augment the salaries of the Judges in Scotland,—and
when he rec,:ilected that Lord Goderich replied,
that that subject ought to be, and should be taken
into consideration; when he knew, moreover, that
the Government intended to augment the salaries of
the Scotch Judges—he could not but regard himself
rather as discharging a debt incurred by the intima-
tions of Government than as proposing to augment
the public expenses in a time of difficulty. These
being the circumstances of the case, he could not
admit that the period at which his proposition was
brought forward was an argument for additional de-
lay. . Besides, the- duties the Judges had to perform,
and not the particular period, ought to decide a pro-
position of this nature. The leading ground on
which he founded his proposition was, that the
present salaries of the Scotch Judges were not
of such an amount, with reference to the emolu-
ments of the profession from which Judges were
drawn, as to secure to the public men who were
competent to the discharge of individual duties,
and who had proved themselves to be so, by rising
to eminence as advocates. The salary of the Lords
of the Court of Session was no more than 2,0001.
a-year. Now he bad been informed by those who
were acquainted with the subject, that the more
eminent banisters made much more by their profes-
sion, than the salary of the Lords of the Session;
and it was hopeless, therefore, to expect those gen-
tlemen to accept a seat upon the bench until they
had arrived at an age when retirement from the busy
occupation of an advocate became desirable to them.
Having made these general observations, he would
proceed to state the nature of his proposition. There
-were thirteen Lords of the Court of Session, inde-
pendent of the Lord President and the Lord Justice
Clerk. The salary of each of these thirteen Judges
was 2,0001. a year. Five of these Judges were also
Commissioners of the Court of Justiciary, and for
this additional duty they received 6001. more. It was
his intention to add to the salary of each of the
Lords of the Court of Session 5001., so that the sa-
laries of the Lords of the Court of Session would be
2,5001., and the salaries of the Lords of the Court
of Session, who were also of the Court of Justiciary,
would be 3,100/. It had been usual to make the
salaries of the Judges in Scotland equal in amount
to half of the salaries of the Judges in England; but
the House would see that he had not carried his
augmentation so far. Another addition he proposed,
founded on the opinion of that House, was that
the higher Judges ought not to be allowed to benefit
by the.sale of subordinate places, for which reason
they took away from the Chief Justice this kind of
patronage, and gave him an addition to his salary in
lieu of it. So he proposed to take away from the Lord
Justice Clerk patronage of this kind, and to give him
an addition of 1,000/. to his salary—making his
salary in the whole 5,000/. a year. He proposed
also to make the same addition of 1,0001. to the
salary of the Lord President, with the view of com-
bining with his office an office which was now a
sinecure—he meant that of Lord Justice General.
He did not propose any addition to the salaries of
other Judges, because they did not appear to call so
urgently as the others for additional remuneration.
He also meant to exclude from additional remunera-
tion those Judges who, as Judges of the Jury Court,
received remuneration in that capacity ; and for this
reason—because the state of the Jury Court must
shortly come under the consideration of Parliament,
and that would be the time for proposing augmenta-
tion, if any appeared necessary. Thus it would be
seen that lie had gone below the usual mark in
his proposition, and if the increased salaries of the
Judges in Scotland—that is, increased as he pro-
posed to increased them, were compared with the
salaries of Judges in England or in Ireland, he
thought that his proposition would be found reason-
able. As to the observation of the Hon. Member for
Reigate (Sir J. Yorke), that men's wits were shar-
pened by their being as poor as possible, he begged
to remind him that one of the worst evils of poverty
was, that it made men ridiculous in the eyes of
others. He put it to the Hon. and Gallant Member
if it would be right to place Judges in this situation.
He begged to move as a resolution, that it was the
opinion of the Committee that the following addi-
tions should be made to the salaries of the Judges
in Scotland,—namely, to the salary of the Lord Pre-
sident, 1,000/. ; to the salary of the Lord Justice
Clerk, 1,0001. ; and to the salary of each of the
Lords of the Court of Session, not being Commis-
sioners of the Jwy Court, 500/.
Sir J. YORKE—I cannot permit the Chancellor
of the Exchequer to remain unanswered by the
Hon. Member for Reigate—(Hear, and a laugh)—
whose arguments he had considerably over-stated.
I did not say that you ought to starve men in order
to produce .their wits. For what I did say I have
authority. Allow me to refer to a volume which is
not very often quoted in this House,,but which is
nevertheless a very high authority—and let me say,
with old Hagar, " Give me neither poverty nor
riches ; not poverty, lest I should steal; nor riches,
lest I should forget my God." Did I ask you to
visit the Scotch Judges with any greater poverty
than they are under now ? No; I said leave them
as they are. When my Noble Relative, who was
called for shortness " Prosperity Robinson"—
(Loud laughter)—proposed a vast increase in the
salaries of the English Judges, I was not at all sur-
prised ; but I did not suppose that the Right Hon.
Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer)
would have caught the mantle of my Noble Rela-
tive. I thought that he came in with all the ex-
treme notions of a strict economist, and that he
would not let a shilling go out of the Treasury
without first looking on either side of it.—(Hear,
and laughter.)—Whether the ,Right Hon. Gent.
has lost his popularity, and therefore takes up the
Scotch Judges. as my Noble Relative took up the
English Judges, or whether it is for some other
reason, I can't tell. Neither do I know whether. he
is right or wrong; but this I do know, namely, that
it is my duty to vindicate the Hon. Member for
Reigate—(Hear, and laughter)—from misrepresen-
tation, and to tell the Right Hon. Gentleman that
the Hon. Member for Reigate did not recommend
the House to starve the Scotch Judges, but that he
merely suggested that it might not be wise to fatten
them.—( Hear, and a laugh.)
Mr. BROUGHAM admitted that it was a very
ill saving of money to underpay men holding high
offices—for such men should always be independent
and respectable, and they could be neither if they
were underpaid. There must, however, be limits
and a rule to guide them in this as in other matters.
No doubt men in the vigour, not in the first, but in
the second vigour of life, should, if possible, be
placed on the bench—no doubt that such men should
be in the possession of a considerable professional
income. If men possessing these two qualifications
refused a seat on the bench, then they might be
sure that Judges were underpaid. But he denied
that it, was necessary that the bench should be filled
from the first class of lawyers or from the second
class of lawyers, dividing them into classes by the
extent of their practice. There was a third and a
much more numerous class, arid he would venture
to say,that in England there would be no difficulty
in finding in the third class men of talent, expe-
rience, arid independence, who would be glad to
take a seat on the bench at the ancient salary of
4,0001. a year. So in Scotland he had no doubt
that such men
.would be found to whom 2,0001. a
year would be sufficient. The Right Hon. Gentle-
man seemed to be impressed with a notion far too
high of emoluments of Scotch advocates. He was
sorry to say—he should be glad if it were other-
wise—that many men at the Scotch bar who were
very fit to be Judges did not make 3,000/. a year.
As to the proportion between the salaries of Judges
in England and Scotland, it was quite clear that we
had invariably broken through that proportion, and
therefore there was an end of that argument. Ile
was rather alarmed, however, at this part of the
sight Honourable Gentleman's speech. For if,

as the English Judge rose, he s‘qta to draw
after him the Scotch Judge, why was he not
also to draw after him the Irish Judge ? It
might be said, that the Irish Judge ought
to keep company with his fellow Judge in Eng-
land, and that when he saw the English Judge
reaching, by a rapid stride, to a salary of 5,5001. a I
year, he ought not to be stranded, as it were, on
4,0001. year, as before. As to the augmentation of
the salaries of the English Judges, he must say that
he never heard a proposition with more unmingled
disapprobation than he heard that of Lord Gode-
rich, and he believed that no persons were more
astonished at-that proposition than the twelve indi-
viduals who were most interested in it. (Hear and
a laugh.) With respect to the Scotch Judges, he
thought that 2,0001. a year would be found suffi-
cient, but if a seat on the bench were declined on
the ground that 2,000/. year was not enough, then
there would be a good reason for augmentation.—
Enough, however, had been said by the Chancellor
of the Exchequer to show that this proposition was
premature, for many alterations would probably be
made in the Scotch judicial system next Session►.
The sinecure Committee reported that the office of
Lord Justice-General ought to be abolished; and be
believed that, after the termination of the existing
interest, that office would be abolished. It could
not therefore, be contended that the provision
proposed to be made by this Bill was for the
purpose of compensation. It was said that
it was intended to re-model the office of
President of the Court of Session. Why not
let the augmentation of the salary await in-
stead of preceding the increase of the business of
that office. He thought that in estimating the •
amount of increase of salary by the amount of busi-
ness performed, the Judge of the Jury Court, who
had twice as much work to do as the other Judges,
ought to be allowed more than 100/. per annum
than the others. The Scotch Judges had in-
comparably less work to do than the English Judges,
in consequence of the absence of that refinement,
which created great litigation► in this country. By
the establishment of the Jury Court the business of
the Judges had been diminished, while their salary
had been increased. The Judge formerly used to
be obliged to read large quantities of written evi•
deuce and to compare the arguments, and then de-
cide on the fact at issue. The decision of the Court
was now left to the Jury, and therefore the Judge
was saved the great labour of reading through these
vast minutes: He was of opinion, that a propor-
tion should be kept up between the labour done and
the salary given for that labour, and he thought
that it would be better, in the present state of the
country, and when it was stated that something was
to be done next year with the duties of the Scotch
Judges, to postpone the question respecting their
salary till it was arranged what amount of business
they were to perform.—(Hear.)
The LORD- ADVOCATE thought the pro-
posed augmentation of the salaries riot unreasonable,
because it would tend to make the Judges inde-
pendent. He was of opinion, that when the subject
of the practice of the Scotch Courts came under
consideration next year, Parliament would be better
able to deal with the subject than when connected
with a question of salary. The income of the Scotch
Judges was certainly inadequate; and barristers
were often solicited to become Judges, and many
individuals refused for a length of time to take places
on the bench. He must say that a great extent of
business had come before these Courts for many
years past, and, at this moment, he knew that there
was in one Court a year's arrear, although it certainly
was not a very heavy errear. The time of the sit-
ting of the Judges was not to be viewed as a matter
depending on them; but a much greater portion of
their time was occupied than the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman had stated. In every case counsel were
heard, and if at one time the Judge sat less than at
another, it might be attributable to two causes—the
one, where the Counsel spoke shortly, which was
not usually the case with them—the other, where
the Judges themselves did not deem it necessary to
speak at any great length. He believed, however,
that both divisions did their duty, and he hoped
that the House would not withhold its sanction from
the very moderate addition to the allowance of the
Judges which was now called for.
Mr. FERGUSSON argued that, instead of going
to the third class of lawyers.to select Judges, it was
always much better, and he hoped the practice would
ever prevail in England and Scotland, to select them
from the very first class. They could not judge of
the talent of an individual, clever though he might
be, who was unknown in his profession ; and there-
fore there was some danger of making a mistake by
selecting from the third rank. The safe rule was, to look
to the higher barrister, and the more general the employ-
ment, the greater the emolument, the better was the
ground for selection. He must say that the Secretary of
State, for several years past, since he had the selection of
the Judges, had acted in a manner which was exceed-
ingly creditable to the Right Hon. Gentleman. It was
formerly said, that these appointments were political ap-
pointments; but the Right Hon. Gentleman had se-
lected persons who were opposed to him in political prin-
ciples, and whose only recommendations were their
great learning and ability. This was proved by
the appointment of Lord Gillies, Lord Alloway,
and other eminent mea. He conceived that the
Commissioners of the Jury Court were harshly
treated by this arrangement,—and the conduct ob-
served towards them would be very ill received in Scot-
land. They were excluded from any . additional emolu-
ment. Now, those Judges were appointed for life, and if
they 6id sway with that Court to-morrow, sech a step
could not he taken without making compensation. Now,
if those Judges pleased to say, " We are dissatisfied, be-
cause no adequate compensation is given to us for this ad-
ditional duty ; we do not choose to undergo this labour
for 1001. a year, and we resign," how could persons be
procured to discharge their duties, on the same terms, un-
less they were wholly incompetent to the task which they
affected to undertake ? He did not like these partial ar-
rangements—doing justice to some, and perhaps injustice
to others, on the ground that proceedings were to be taken
up at an indefinite time. He thought it would be invidious,
' in making this arrangement, to shut out the Commis-
' sioners of the Jury Court. He did not, however, mean,
as he was not likely to succeed, to call for a division on
this resolution.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ex-
plained.
Sir G. WARRENDER concurred in the praises which
had been bestowed on these learned persons, but he did
not concur in the propriety of the time when this propo-
sition was brought forward, and still less could he concur
in the Justice of the grounds stated by the Noble and
Learned Lord for introducing it. Because, he confessed,
it appeared to him, that if a great change were to take
place in these Courts on the recommendation of a com-
mission especially appointed, it would be much better to
wait till the arrangement was concluded, rather than to
settle the salaries of the Judges in the first instance.—
(Hear, hear.)—The Right Hon. Gentleman opposite had
been eulogized for his impartial selection of Judges ; but
all the praise did not belong to him, fur Lord Gillies and
Lord Alloway, both eminent men, were selected long be-
fore the Right Hon. Gentleman was in office. When this
addition to the salaries of the Judges was called for, he
could not but recollect that those salaries were increased
four times since 1797 ; and that one of them, in that
period, had risen freoi 3,0001. to 4,3001. a-year. Neither
could he leave out of his consideration, that, when those
salaries were last increased, wheat was 130 s. a quarter,
and every thing else dear in proportion.—(Hear, hear.
Then he could not overlook the change which had taken
place in the currency, which gave the Judges an advance
of 20 per cent. on their salaries ; besides which, the re-
moval of the property tax, and the reduction of the asses-
sed taxes, gave them a considerable advantage. Under all
the circumstances, though he respected those gentlemen,
and knew them personally, a sense of public duty com-
pelled him to oppose the motion.
Mr. HUSKISSON contended that the arguments ad-
duced in support of the motion by the Learned Lord were
inapplicable to the case. It appeared that the case of the
Scotch Judges had been under consideration for four years,
and had been postponed, from time to time, upon two con-
siderations—the one was, that a revision and a reform in
the Scottish Courts were in progress, but it appeared that
that revision and reform had not yet been effected, but
would probably be completed next year, and in his opinion
it would be proper to wait for the settlement of that ques-
tion before they adopted this proposition. The other rea-
soe was, that there had lately been various alterations in
the adminstration of the country; and, if they did not
grant this additional allowance now, they might despair of

its eter being granite!. fie, however, did not know whe.
they it was supposed that another administration was likely
to take place before the next session ; he thought there ryas
neter any thig less likely than that which seemed to fill
the Learned Lord wi-h so intich apprehension. The pro-
per mode of proceeding would he, first to consider the
state of the administration of justice in Scotland, to exa-
mine how the Judges performed their functiontand duties;
and that having been done, and a due revision having been
made, .it would then be time enough to determine what
salaries were to be given.
Mr. H. DRUMMOND said it was his opinion that in
conjunction with the increase of salary some new arrange-
ments should be made with respect to the duties performed
by the Scotch Judges. As there was little hope of the
latter object being effected this Session, he would move as
an amendment, that the Chairman do report progress.—
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. PEEL said, that as he perceived it to be the gene-
ral feeling of the House that the question should be post-
poned to next Session, he would not press it on the pre-
sent occasion, though his opinion of the justice of the
measure remained unchanged.
After a few words from Mr. Hcsta, the CLIANCELLOA
of the EXCHEQUER, and Sir C. FOILBE,,

The original motion was withdrawn, and the House re-
sumed.

The measure therefore stands over to next Session.
ECCLESIASTICAL COURTS BILL.

The report on the above Bill was brought up.
Sir J. NICHOLL moved that the amendments be read
a first time.

Mr. HUME moved as an amenime.nt, that they be read
a first time this day three three months.
The House divided, and the numbers were—
Fur the original m0ti0n...33 I Against it 3
Majority 30

Whilst strangers were excluded another division took
place, but upon what question we could not ascertain.
The numbers were-32 to S.

On our re-admission we found Mr. HUME declaring
his intention still to oppose the progress (f the Bill.

Mr. PEEL then said, that as the Hon. Member was
determined to pursue this vexatious course against the
decided sense of the House, be must request his Right
lion. Friend to postpone the measure to Friday.
The further consideration of the report was then post-
poned to Friday.
The other orders of the day being disposed of, the
House adjourned at Three o'clock.