The Sun.
London, England, 1845-06-20 00:00:00

into the condition of those persons who had embarked a large
capital, perhaps for personal purposes, but certainly with an
ultimate view to the greatness of the country. He would
not go into a detail of the disturbances which
had taken place, or of those which were apprehended,
but he would say that it was incumbent upon the Govern-
ment to take steps for reconciling all conflicting interests, and
for placing the colony upon a sound and secure foundation. A.
comparison of the system of colonisation pursued by other na-
tions was in favour of the English system. What was the re-
sult of the French system in Algeria but to provoke the hatred
of the natives? So much so as to render it unsafe for a French-
man to walk a mile from the capital of the province without a
safeguard.—( Hear, hear.) He could not vote with his Hon.
and Learned Friend on this occasion—(Hear, hear)—but he
would call upon her Majesty's Government to state, not that
they would condemn the past, but that they would modify and
improve the future.
Mr. SHELL said that, although the papers were exceedingly
volrminous as to the controversy which had arisen between the
Noble Lord to whom the Government had entrusted the con-
trol of our colonial empire, it was evident that there were some
errors. In nine months after the treaty of Watonga there was
an arrangement entered into which had never been fulfilled. A
question had been raised as to the meaning of the treaty of
Watonga, but no question had been raised with respect to the
treaty that was entered into bet eeen the Government and the
New Zealand Company in ISIO. There could be no contro-
versy on the mater. He did not believe, nor did he kno:v,
whether the Hon. Gentleman opposite suggested that any con-
troversy could be raised; perhaps he alluded to the fact of
Lord Stanley's having signified some doubt as to the mean-
ing of that agreement. But this he knew that
in 1844 Mr. Somes, one of the most important members
of the New Zealand Company, called upon his Noble Friend to
give an explanation of that agreement, and his Noble Friend
the Member for London adopted the explanation which had
been given by the Company, and he was not aware that Lord
Stanley ever intimated that a different explanation could be
given. Plain sense and plain justice put to common sense this
question—Had that agreement ever been fulfilled? Had the
contract ever been executed? The Company laid out the sum
of 100,000/. They laid the foundation of a great colony.
They spent vast sums in the construction of public works.
And what had they received in return? The question de-
pended on a few facts. It was a great and prominent fact
that stood in high relief in this case, that an agreement was
carried, and an outlay was made by the New Zealand
Company, and nothing was received in return. That
outlay was certain, it was acknowledged by the Govern-
ment, and nothing was given in return.—( Hear, hear.)
That was a great fact, which no earthly intrepidity
of asseveration could controvert, which no sophistry could get
over. His Noble Friend sent instructions to the Govern-
ment of New Zealand to carry that agreement into effect.
He could not conceive a circumstance stronger than that
which he had mentioned—an original agreement, deliberately
made after the treaty of Watonga, not ratified by the Govern-
ment. His Noble Friend went out of office, and Lord Stanley
came in, and, to his ( Mr. Sheil's) great surprise, the Noble
Lord came at once into conflict with the New Zealand Com-
pany. They called upon him to fulfil the contract—they en-
treated him—they expostulated—they remonstrated in vaiss.
At the time of the unhappy altercation that arose between the
Government and the Company, his Hon. Friend the Member
for Cockermouth, finding that all chance of justice at the Co.
lonial-office was at an end, applied to the House of Commons.
Now; let the House of Commons and the country mark what
had taken place. The Committee which his Hon. Friend
moved for was not resisted ; they (the Government) invited
him to it. The Government formed the Committee. That
had been often mentioned, bet the fact was so important
when compared with the result, that reiteration was not in-
appropriate. How was the Committee constituted? The
Government appointed five Whigs, and ten—what should he
say ?—(Laughter.) Ten of then:habitual supporters. That
was the constitution of the Committee—five Whigs and ten
Conservatives. And among these Conservatives was placed
the Hon. Gentleman the Under-Secretary of the Colonies.
Among them was placed a Gentleman whom he saw opposite,
not then, he believed, the Secretary of the Treasury, but who
had proved in the House, not out of the House, his qualifica-
tion. Another Member was Lord Jocelyn, since made the
Secretary of the Board of Control, and another was Lord
Francis Egerton. He thought that it would be admitted that
a Committee more favourable to Lord Stanley could hardly
be found. The Committee met, the case was throughly in-
vestigated, all the documents were laid before them, all the
instructions respecting the treaty of Watonga, the different
agreements, and the whole mass of papers, swollen to a mighty
ponderance, under which the tables of the House sighed.
They examined their papers, which showed the nature of their
property and vast tracts of millions of acres, on which a
human foot had never left a vestige. After a most laborious
inquiry—and surely he was justified in saying a most impartial
investigation—to what conclusion did they arrive—with a large
majority ? To the conclusion to which his Hon. Friend invited
the House to come. They reported against the
Government.—( hear. ) That was another thing on which
the merits of the case depended, and on which he would de-
pend. The Committee appointed by the Government, with a
majority of ten, found a series of resolutions inculpating the
Colonial-office. That was a fact. But there was more to be
presented to the attention of the House and the country, whose
opinion on this subject was of more importance than any de-
cision to which the House might arrive. Lord Stanley, in his
commentaries on the report, said that the Committee was not
unanimous. He said that the resolutions were carried by nar-
row majorities. When he (Mr. Sheil) saw the statement
made by Lord Stanley, he analysed the majority and minority,
and looked to the division of the Committee which took place.
Now, he found that in the resolutions most strongly condemn-
ing Lord Stanley, and the whole of the policy upon which the
affairs of New Zealand were conducted, he found that, in what
he called a narrow majority, there voted against him his Hon.
Friend the Member for Pontefract, an habitual supporter, an
useful—and not only an useful, but an ornamental—supporter
of the Government. He found that an honourable and most
accomplished Gentleman, elected by the Government to move
an address at the commencement of the session—he meant
Mr. Charteris—he found that he also voted against Lord
Stanley. He found that Lord Jocelyn, an Irishman, who, he
was sure, on this investigation, might have remembered that
Lord Stanley was once the Secretary for Ireland--( Laughter)—
he found that he, whom they had elected as the Secretary
of the Board of Control, voted against Lord Stanley.
But though last in enumeration, yet the first in account, he
found that Lord F. Egerton, a man of great rank, of the highest
position in this country, of great talent, and of inestimable
worth—a man, of whose services the country had been de-
prived by causes which all of them had concurred in lamenting,
he found that he voted against Lord Stanley. Nay more, he
was not content with voting against him—he found that he was
the very man who moved as an amendment clauses strongly
condemnatory of Lord Stanley. If the House was not aware
of it, let them mark the words in page 20. What words could
be more significant? An amendment was proposed by
Lord Francis Egerton, that these words be added—" That
the government of Lord Stanley was productive of very inju •
!ions consequences." That was the whole ease. The entire of
the resolutions of his Honourable Friend might have been com-
prised in those expressions, and that resolution thus denunci-
atory of the Government, moved by way of an amendment. So
strong was the conviction of the Noble and virtuous Lord of the
justice of the treaty, that not satisfied with the justice of the re-
solutions moved by the friends of the Company, he moved the
amendment to which he had just called their attention. He
said he would rely on facts, and be would ask them when they
should do him the honour to advert to his observations, not to
answer him (Mr. Sheil) but Lord F. Egerton, when they would
defend Lord Stanley. After the Committee had reported what
took place, one would imagine that when Lord Stanley had
read the report of the Committee he would have retraced his
steps—he would have acknowledged his mistakes—his policy
would have been altered, or, at all events, that he
would have entered into some sort of amicable com-
munication with the Company. What course did he take ?
He wrote a dispatch, and he seemed to have thought that as
the case was against Lord Stanley, he ought to make a cross
case of Lord Stanley against the New Zealand Company. His
dispatch contained a series of animadversions on the Company.
A report was drawn up, in which it was stated as colonial law,
adverting to a principle laid down by Sir George Gipps, a
famliar principle, namely, that barbarous tribes had no vested
property in any land. Lord Stanley's course was to dispute
the premises and expatiate on the merits of the New Zealand
Company. Let him call the attention of the House to the state-
ment in seriousness made by his Hon. Friend (Mr. C. Buller)
in his masterly speech—( Hear, hear)—that the most powerful
chief in New Zealand founded his title on the ground that he
had put all the former inhabitants to death.—
( Hear, hear.) The report had no effect on Lord
Stanley, but a great effect on the public mind. When
it was found that no grant was to be made to the Company—
that the Government would not act according to the decision
of the Committee of their own nomination, the merchants and
great capitalists of London assembled together, and presented
petitions, to which he begged to call the attention of the
Government, and to the most able exposition of the facts by
his Hon. Friend the Member for Sunderland last night,
who, with his usual comprehensiveness and wisdom, pointed
out the faults that were committed. He (Mr. Sheil) did not
pretend to say that nothing had been said comparable with the
matter which was set forth in the petition of the merchants and
traders of the City of London. That petition was presented
on, he thought, the 18th of March, 184.5. He had seen the
First Lord of the Treasury armed with petitions from the mer-
chants—he had seen him stand up in the House of Commons,
and, with the emphasis peculiar to himself, expatiate "upon
the importance of the support derived from that great body,
and, if these were his remarks, surely it would be felt that
the petition which he was now about to advance, not only con-
demnatory but denunciatory of their conduct, was deserving,
if not of the attention of the Government, at all
events of the attention of the public. The petition
stated that the differences and disputes in the colonies had pro-
duced dissatisfaction and complaint, which brought the new-
formed settlement, and the Company almost to the verge of de-
struction. The petitioners, in common with the whole commu-
nity, begged for a Select Committee to inquire into the state of
New Zealand, and the proeeedings of the New Zealand Com-
pany, and stated that, as it appeared from the report that the
New Zealand Company had been exposed to hardships and ill-
treatment, the result of the policy of the Colonial-office, they
called for prompt interference and redress. By whom was that
petition presentee ? Not by a Whig—not by an antagonist of
the Colonial-office—not by a factious partisan ; it was
presented by John Masterman.—( Cries of " Hear, hear.")
This petition was signed by two of the Hots. Members for
London, the one a Whig and the other a Tory, and yet it was
quite apparent that that petition expressed the sentiments of
his Noble Friend near him. Let him ask Hon. Members of
the Government opposite had they read the names of those
who had signed that petition ?—( Hear. ) He found attached
to it the names of merchants of the first city in the empire ;
men of unexampled opulence, and those whose signatures stood
first in the ranks of the commercial men of this, the
great metropolis of the commercial world.—( Hear,
hear.) What would be the answer of the Govern-
ment to this petition, or rather what had been the
answer ?—( Hear.) Had it not been in effect to blight the
prospects of the British empire in that region, and to place the
property of the emigrants in that country under a perpetual
cloud.—( Hear, hear.) The colony had been said to have been
made bankrupt, the progress of trade and agriculture stopped,
the plough had been arrested in its operation through the field
and the axe in the wood, and the emigrant had, in fact, become
an exile, and, in the recklesss spirit of ferocity to which in-
justice had driven him, blood had been profusely shed.—
( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord the Member for Sunderland
had said that the blood of Englishmen was crying aloud for
satisfaction for what they had suffered since their emigration
to that country, for that a feeling of just indignation had been
bet
aanpbepegannreondavdoteneterteonhdfdeeitdtah.t the disasters by which their emigration had
iearem, authoritativeness
policy
)i
oy Let,b e :gh
ae
anynnd,
longer who
ps
(sophisti-
cation, hsd
snet
pursued,
abandon attended.—(
cation, and vote in favour of the motion of his Hon. Friend.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said tnhat, after the observations
Hon that had fallen from the Right H
sat down, as well as those of the Hon..
Gentleman wwhhoo hhaadd
in-
troduced the subject, he had risen merely for the purpose of
expressing his entire concurrence in many of the observations
st
daets had
theouse.ear,
hf
ea 1 l efinonfsreo.m_(HHoona.r, mheomar.)ers on the subject, at both
He would assure Hon.
Members opposite that he was far from attempting
forto he felt
deeplyvalue
rveesrsye greatd with
th
e i importancemeas nor
af b f thise
knowing, subject
valneth
at a h s
he
ei s
did,l n s
theo tf
New Zealand were of to this country,
naval supremacy of this country, and the advantages the har-
bours of New Zealand afforded to that navy, as well as to
British commerce ; and he could also appreeia,e the value of
the geographical position of those islands, which, he was aware,
ormed the key to the traffic between this country and the

' China Seas, all which he was willing to admit were
matters of great moment to the commercial inte-
rests of this great commercial empire.—( Hear, hear.) He
was also bound to state that an additional reason he had
for concurring in the observations of his Hon. Friend opposite
was, that he was sensitively alive to the fact, that the increas-
ing population of this country required a well-regulated sys-
tem of colonisation.—( Hear, hear.) Having prefaced this
question with those observations, he now begged to assure the
House that he did not intend to follow the Hon. Member op-
posite (Mr. Buller) in all the details which he had laid before
the House, but he feared he should be compelled to detain the
House while he entered into a few of them. He was ready to
admit, distinctly, that much of what had been stated last night,
in reference to the affairs of this island, were traceable to the
two causes mentioned—namely, the mode of emigration and
the abaence from the island of those who could have exercised
an efficient and effectual control.—( Hear, hear.) He had no
wish to weary the House by entering into a statement of the
manner in which this colony had been governed under former
Administrations, he would rather now pass over that, and
come at once to the histo-y of the transactions connected with
the mode of carrying out the treaty of Watonga. The Hon.
Biet-onat then read a passage from the treaty, by which it ap-
peared that certain rights and privileges were to be pre-
served to the natives and the emigrants respectively.
He might be permitted to state that it appeared to him that the
principal difficulty which his Noble Friend at the head of the
Colonies had had to encounter, since he became the servant of
the Crown had been the task of reconciling the treaty of
Watonga, which he would assume as binding, with the charter
granted to the New Zealand Company, also given by the advice
of the Noble Lord. The difficulty of reconciling these two
engagements was stated, he thought, very forcibly, and, as he
thought, very fairly, in a paper which had been presented to the
House, containing a discussion which had lately arisen between
the Government and the New Zealand Company. The New
Zealand Company said—" It is impossible to reconcile the
missionary system with colonization. The object of the
missionaries has been to prevent colonisation, and to preserve
the nationality of New Zealand." The House knew the
opinion pronounced by the New Zealand Company, with re-
ference to the two documents—the treaty of Watonga, which
proceeded on missionary principles, and the agreement with the
New Zealand Company which was founded on the past system,
namely, the system of colonisation, as contradistinguished from
the missionary system. That was upon two antagonist docu-
meets. He entirely concurred with the view of the New Zea-
land Company with reference to the two engagements. The
Right Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down had contended
that, consistently with the engagement into which the Crown
had entered with the New Zealand Company, it was not just to
call on that Company to prove their titles to land, to which they
were legitimately entitled, before a court of appeal, exercising
judicial authority in New Zealand. He ( Sir J. Graham) must
say that the view taken by the Right Hon. Gentleman in that
particular was entirely at variance with the recorded opinion of
both contracting parties. The Right Honourable Gentle-
man then read some very lengthy extracts from the
correspondence which has taken place between the New
Zealand Company and the Government, and also with
the New Zealand Company's agent at New Zealand.
The Right Han. Gentleman said that a misunderstanding com-
menced immediately upon Lord Stanley's taking office. Now
the fact was that no such misunderstanding arose until 1842.
He ( Sir J. Graham) was sorry that when his Hon. Friend the
Secretary for the Treasury addressed the House so few Mem-
bers were present.—( Hear, hear.) But those who had the
advantage of hearing him would concur with him (Sir James
Graham) that his Hon. Friend had used arguments respecting
the treaty of Watonga,"which were irresistible, and which he
(Sir J. Graham) would not weaken by repeating. Up to the
year 1812 no differences had arisen with respect to the nature
of the contract between the Company and the Crown, namely,
that they should prove their title before Commissioners of
Inquiry exercising judicial functions. In 1842 disputes arose
of a serious aspect, and it was the desire of his Noble Friend
the Secretary for the Colonies, if possible, to devise the means
of adjustment upon the disputed points. He first indicated
the mode of adjustment as early as January, 1843.
The instructions to Captain Fitzroy were given under a con-
tract with the Company, that he should be allowed to act
independent of that corporation. He did not wish to enter
fully into the whole conduct of the Governor there appointed,
nor all the subjects of disagreement between him and the
Company ; suffice it to say, that his reed] was founded on
allegations—subsequently proved to be correct—that he had
disobeyed the instructions furnished him. There had been a
condition always recognised by the Company, forming part of
the original engage.nent of 1640, and subsequently con-
firmed by the Colonial Secretary who succeeded the Noble
Lord the Member for London, that the selection of land
should be made within certain specified limits ; and that the
Government should receive from time to time full and effi-
cient information of the land divided there. But
since Captain Fitzroy had arrived no selection had been
made by their agent, and consequently no report had been re-
seived by the Government at home. The Hon. Member for
Newcastle- under-Lyne had said that great allowances were to
be made for Captain Fitzroy's errors, in consideration of the
difficulties which he had uninterruptedly encountered. la
that sentiment he heartily concurred.—( Hear.) It was true
that several acts of disobedience had detracted from his
merit. The issue of the inconvertible paper, and the subject of
embroiling the settlers with natives on whom dependence could
be placed, had unqustionably decreased the confidence of
the Government in their officer, And, while the remission of
all duties of custom was equally indefensibble ; at the same
time it would be remembered that the delieulty of levying
sustoms, extending over three thousand miles was a
duty extremely difficult to be performed—Hear, hear)—
but their being remitted, without any appeal or remonstrance
to the Home Government, was highly injudicious. The
Hon. Members for Lambeth (Mr. Hawes) and for Liskeard
(Mr. Buller) had made severe comments on the coarse pure
sued by the Colonial Department, and had suggested the pro-
priety of entrusting the entire management of their affairs to
the natives.

Mr. BULLER dissented. What he had said was, that local
self-government might be successfully attempted.
Sir J. GRAHAM—The Government had been charged,
also, with attending to home interests and home influences
alone. He would not combat that proposition, but would ob-
serve that if the Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) at the
head of her Majesty's Government, casting aside the interests
of 100,000 New Zealanders, at the Antipodes, had yielded to
considerations of home interests and influences, he would have
experienced much more ease, and much less opposition from
Members on either side of the House.—( Hear. The Hon.
Member for Liskeard (Mr. Buller) had quoted the advice of
the Noble Lord the Member for Tiverton (Lord Palmerston)
that they should no more suffer the nonsense of the colonial office.
Now, without offence to the propounder of that suggestion, he
would say that, considering that the Noble Lord the Member
for London (Lord John Russell) was then at the head of that
department ; and, remembering the character of the then
Under-Secretary, nonsense was not likely to emanate from
that office.—(Cheers.) However, it was not to the past that
he would refer ; that was infinitely of less importance than the
future.—( Loud cheers.) It was impossible to hear the speech
of the Hon. Member for Coventry (Mr. Ellice) and not see that
the manly and vigorous sense of that speech—(Cheers)—
demanded an explicit reply from the Government.—(Cheers.)
He for one would answer as candidly as was consistent with his
duty. The first question propounded b 1 the Hon. Member
was, what was the construction put by the Government on the
treaty of Watonga ? His answer was that her Majesty was enti.
tied to the entire sovereignty of that island. subject of course to
certain contingencies and engagements—the prime engagement
being that the natives should be protected in the possession of
land and property ; and the right of land being vested
in the Crown, that they should enjoy all the rights
and privileges of British settlers. Such engagements
should be religiously observed.—(Hear, hear.) That brought
him to a consideration of a point of some importance. The
words of the treaty were " in possession of the natives," in the
letters patent granted at the incorporation of the Company,
there was a marked difference, the expression then used was
"lands occupied or enjoyed," the concurrence of both words
" occupied " and " enjoyed " implied that some difference was
intended between them. By an Act of the local Government,
the sale of occupied lands (by the natives) was prohibited, yet
pre-emption on the part of the Crown must have been contem-
plated. They could sell something to the Crown, therefore it
must imply unoccupied land ; if so, it plainly recognised the
right of the native to sell such unoccupied land.
The Government had been asked what they intended to do
with respect to the land. The Government intended to do
that which Captain Fitzroy bad been instructed to do, but
which he had omitted to perform. It was proposed, 'within a
limited time, to call upon all the natives and settlers to come
forward, in order to prove their titles to the land and register
their names, and all parties failing at the expiration of the
time to register their names, the right of sovereignty
being secured under the treaty of Watonga,
the unclaimed lands would, of right, be vested in the Crown.
In strict conformity with the treaty of Watonga, the Crown
will also become possessed of a large portion of waste land in
New Zealand. It had been asked, how does the Government
intend to deal with the New Zealand Company. Positive
instructions.trill be given to the Governor to put them into
possession of lands within the assigned limits of which they
shall make a selection, and of which they shall retain
the possession. He had been asked, whet are the inten-
tions of the Government with respect to the duties on
New Zealand. He considered the remission of the customs
duties was a most ill•advised act. He was quite ready to jus-
tify the statement made by his Hon. Friend the Secretary of
the Treasury, that orders on the subject had been given 'to the
Governor of New Zealand, which he had not properly attended
to. He had then been asked a question of more importance
than the rest, what were to be the institutions under which
New Zealand was to be governed. He would answer that it
was the wish of the Government, and directions had been given
to the Governor, that municipal institutions should be
given to all the settlers under the New Zealand Company, and
if any farther institutions should be required, the Governor
was instructed not only to enlarge the powers of the municipal
institutions, but also to increase their number. It had been
stated, in strict accordance with the principle of colonisation,
that concentration was not desirable. Dispersion was the
most prudent way of colonising large islands ; by dispersing the
multitude, a better local government within the districts,
and a safer general government would be secured. It would be
said, however, that this was still an imperfect Government,
and that representation after all was desirable. He was not,
however, prepared to acquiesce in that proposition. A solemn
engagement bad to be observed. The natives were entitled to
all the rights and privileges of British settlers. I f the repre-
sentative form of government was to be adopted, the natives
must be admitted to a share in it. If they were admitted in
their present state of civilisation it would be premature, and if,
on the other hand, they were excluded altogether, it
would be inconsistent with justice, and would have
a tendency to increase discord, and promote a
spirit of dissatisfaction. At all events, he was satisfied suck a
system would not prove of the slightest utility under the cir-
cumstances in which the colony was at present situated.
Again, the Right Hon. Gentleman had asked what was to be
the law of succession to landed property, and more especially
was primogeniture to be maintained, as the right of succession
in that country. He thought the Right Hon. Gentleman
would not have pressed that question upon the Govern-
ment. It was a general rule of law that British subjects,
in whatever quarter of the globe they might be, as they were
still under the domination of the Crown, should carry with
them all the rights, privileges, and immunities of the British
law and of the Constitution. This was the only exp'anation
the Government could give ; and if any one asserted to the
contrary, it would be a violation of the general law. He had
endeavoured to give a most explicit answer to the Right Hon.
Gentleman, and he trusted he would be satisfied with it. With
respect to the errors that had been committed by the Governor,
the Home Government had marked their sense of them in the
most pointed manner. The question had then turned to the
appointment of a successor. The Right Hon. Member for
Coventry thought that no appointment could be a judicious
appointment which was not sanctioned by some gentlemen in
England. The Right Hon. Member for Somersetshire was
rather of opinion that his Noble Friend had been guilty of
some indiscretion, by not giving some specific and
written instructions to Captain Fitzroy.—(Hear, hear.)
The Noble Lord the Member for Sussex had said, do not
fetter the new Governor with positive instructions; tell him
the particulars in which his predecessors had failed—point out
to him what is right, but leave him entirely to act on his own
discretion. He (Sir James Graham) entirely concurred in
this. Captain Grey was the person that had been selected as
the new Governor. It would not be denied that Captain Grey
reportsse gr
teoa
thatta bi 1 i i
House,es .
that
aa
tf o
therm courseeca si
pursuedo it had beencapt stated,.
Grey,
ismissasie
Lin.d.r'dztogthrtahtto:ll)'ipptfOo
,Ifinlottwhinecedu.atbwoTrukleituhees
onlyint ..oesrbijici6iitly:;ll:fof
rnaltkucroisit:

bilay, he could not cuneeai that they had erred most greatly in
point of judgment. They did not calculate en the warlike
propensities of the savage race, which ha been well shown

THE SUN, LONDON, FRIDA EVENING, JUNE 20, 1845

new Governor. He (Sir J. Graham) could not see what
Captain Grey's rank in the army had to do with his qualifica-
tions for the office. He possessed truth, combined with expe-
rience and ability, and these were the principal essentials for
the station. He did not wish to detain the House at great
length, but he should be unjust to his Noble Friend
(Lord Stanley) if he did not state what was his
strong impression on the interests of the unprotected natives.
He did not admit that that was the end in view, but if it was
the end, then the motives which led to it could not be
impugned. He was sure his Noble Friend (Lord Stanley)
had acted from the most eenerous and humane feelings. Cer-
tainly the House had to consider whether the colonial govern-
ment, as administered by the Noble Lord opposite (Lord John
Russell), end also as administered by his Noble Friend, had
been that which was calculated to serve the interests of the
colony and maintain the dignity of the mother country. It
would be for the House to consider all these matters, as they
were justly entitled to do ; but in taking such a course they
ought to weigh well the difficulties by which the administration
of affairs in this colony had been surrounded, awl the evils that
would result from the adoption of such a course as that recom-
mended. They ought to take into their most serious con-
sideration whether it was just or politic to pass a vote of censure
on what had already been done, perhaps from a mistaken
policy, yet still, he believed, from the best intentions.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that he was called upon to
address the House, as he wished to make some exp'anations of
what had taken place between the Colonial Department, and
the New Zealand Company. He would first address himself
to the difficu'ties in which the colony had been placed, as
between the chief advisers of the Crown, on the part of the
Legislature of this country, and the colony of New Zealand.
On a previous occasion, he had stated that the proper course to
pursue, with regard to New Zealand, was to treat with the
natives for the property of the colony. He was in hopes that
the course which he advised to be taken would lead to an
amicable settlement of the question. But the course taken by
the treaty about that time prevented that course to be
taken. The Honourable Gentleman the Under-Secretary
for the Colonies, as also the Right Honourable
Baronet the Secretary for the Home Department,
had stated that the principal difficulties which the present Go-
vernment experienced in the management of New Zealand,
were principally the fruits of their predecessors. These state-
ments having been made, he (Lord. John Russell) was obliged
to refer to them, and in doing so, he would have to enter into
some matters of detail. He was there to perform the task im-
posed upon him. He had been highly complimented for the
course he had pursued by the Honourable Member for Coven-
try (Mr. Ellice) who was an intimate friend, and also by the
Honourable Member for Newcastle-under-Line, with whom he
was not on terms of intimacy. and with whom he had never
any political alliance ; but still, holding opinions different to
these Honourable Members, he felt bound to state the reasons
why he so differed. An Hon. Gentleman in the course of the
debate, said that gross blunders had been made in the
engagements entered into with New Zealand; and another
Hon. Gentleman said it was difficult to reconcile what he
( Lord J. Russell) had done with the interests of the country.
Had he made such mistakes as had been alledged, he should
consider himself unfit to hold the high office he had held. But
he was obliged to state the facts of the case. The islands of
New Zealand were recognised as an independent State in 1839.
In that year C sptain Hobson was sent out, with power to
treat with New Zealand as an independent territory, and, if
necessary, to take the country under the protection of the
Crown. Captain Hobson was successful in concluding the
Ireaty of Watonga, by which New Zealand became a part of
the British dominions. The treaty was not a long one, yet
the Hon. Gentleman who had qu ,ted it only read a part of it,
he had not read it all. He would, therefore, read it to the
House. The Noble Lord then read the treaty, calling parti-
cular attention to a passage, to the effect that her Majesty
guaranteed to the natives undisturbed possession in their
lands, estates, and fisheries, as Img as they wished
to retain possession of them ; and that the chiefs,
on the other hand, should give to the Crown the
right of pre-emption of such land as was not required
by them, at such prices as should be mutually agreed on.
The treaty was, therefore, made up of two parts—first, securing
to the natives the lands; and, secondly, reserving to her Ma-
jesty the right of pre-emption of such lands as the natives
were disposed to part with. An Hon. Gentleman had
claimed the enforcement of the treaty, but if so, let them have
the whole of it—not only that which relates to the interests of
the natives, but with regard to the rights of the Crown. With
regard to the first part of the treaty, he held that the inter-
pretation to be given to it should be the same as that of stipu-
lations in which islands have been ceded to this country in
times of war. It ought to be considered like treaties with
foreign countries, and interpreted in a manner consonant
with the common law of Europe, and in which
all civilised nations were agreed.—( Hear, hear.) What
had been the case with regard to Canada, Triuidad, De-
merara, and other places? They did not say that the natives
of these places should have possession of all the lands that
might be in their country. In the treaty that was made after
the war of 1756, no such course was adopted with respect to
Canada. No, they said that the property which the natives
held in their own right, and which they were actually in pos-
session of, should be secured to them—that no one should dis-
turb them in the enjoyment of this—but with respect to the
waste lands, it was distinctly specified that they should
be held as the lands of the Crown.—( Hear, hear.) It was
hardly necessary to go so far out of she way as Sir George
Gipps went with respect to the doctrines which were main-
tained by public writers.on the subject. He would net there-
fore quote Mr. Weeks or any other authority in reference to it.
The Honourable Gentleman the Secretary of State quoted
several paragraphs to show the sense he attached to that article
in the treaty with respect to the waste lands, and he also
quoted a passage from the instructions of Lord Normanby,
which appeared to coincide with his views, but he forgot to
state that there was another passage in the very same page of
a different tendency.—( Hear, hear.) One would have
thought that any Hon. Gentleman who wished to state
the purport of these instructions fairly should not have omitted
that passage which distinctly stated " that with respect to such
lands as were now actualy occupied or enjoyed that the undis-
turbed enjoyment of them should be secured." A little further
on there was a passage to the same effect, " that no one should
i"terfere with or molest any occupier in the enjoyment of his
property." The Hon. Gentleman the Secretary of the
Treasury alluded to Mr. Spain as a country attorney.
Mr. CARD WELL said that he did not mean to speak of
Mr. Spain or his profession in a manner disrespectful or dero-
gatory to that gentleman.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL—What he was about to re-
mark was that if is was the character of an attorney
to make a point by a quirk or a quibble, the Hon. Gen-
tleman himself showed more of that character than the gen-
tleman referred to.—(Laughter.) Before, however, he came
to the further arguments of the Hen. Gentleman, let him say
that in carrying out those instructions anything contrary to
the treaty of Watonga ought not to be construed against the
natives. The most fair, liberal, and just construction should
be put upon that treaty. With respect to those lands in the
possession of the natives, they should be left to the full enjoy-
ment of them ; but, on the other band, to push the words of
the treaty to such an extraordinary length—to push them be-
yond the treaties of all the civilised nations in Europe—to put
such a construction on them with those ignorant savages—he
would neither call it fair or honourable, but fatal to the inte-
rests of this country, fatal to the interests of the colony, and
giving them up a prey to every adventurer who chose to settle
upon their shores.—( Loud cheers.) There were 100,000 in-
habitants in the island. Supposing the country to be 100,' .00
square miles in extent, this would be one person to the
square _mile ; but on the middle island it was stated in one
of the papers that there were only 1,500 inhabitants. There
was not, however, a part of it but was claimed by some portion
of the native tribes. That was a roost extravagant doctrine.
It was perfectly absurd.—( Hear, hear.) He hoped
that the House would not sanction it, and he hoped
that the Noble Lord the Secretary for the Colonies
would not sanction it, as it would be not only injurious to the
country, but also the colony. Such being the statement of
the case, that the country would be governed by the letters
patent which he had read, and by the instructions to which he
referred, he had not the foresight to suppose that any dis-
putes were likely to arise with respect to the waste lands. He
th ni.eht that a liberal construction would be pot on the treaty
of Watonga. He was not singular in this opinion, for Major
Bunbury, in one of his letters, had stated that all the waste
lands ought to be taken possession of, and settlers placed on
them immediately. Some time afterwards a question
arose with respect to transactions in which the New
Zealand Company were involved, and his acquaint.
ante with that Company first began under circum-
stances which were not of the most pleasant nature.
The view which he took of this Company, and in this he agreed
with Mr. Huskisson, was, that it was meet essential for the
purpose of colonisation. He ( Lord J. Russell) was of opinion
that a Company like this could do far more for the proper
management of emigrants than the Government. As soon as
he found that a quarrel had been going on for some time be-
tween the Colonial Department and the New Zealand Com-
pany, and he endeavoured, through Mr. Soames, as soon as the
power of the Crown was declared to be paramount in that
colony, to effect some amicable arrangement, so that neither
the Government nor the Company might have any unfair ad-
vantage, or by which the people of New Zealand might be in-
jured. It was said by the Right Honourable Gentleman
that the agreement was quite inconsistent with the
treaty of Watonga. Such, however, was not the opinion
of the Committee which sat last year on the affairs of New
Zealand. In what manner was it inconsistent? He (Lord
John Russell) was stated to be of opinion that the agents had
purchased large quantities of land, which they were ready to
surrender to the Crown, whereas he (Lord John Russell) was
willing to admit them to terms simtlar to those granted to
other persons who were compelled to surrender a certain
number of acres of lands to the Crown, in proportion to the ex-
pense they had incurred—that for every ss. expended they
should receive an acre of land. But there was not a word said
in that agreement as to the peculiar number of acres which
they had purchased or anything basing that agreement upon
the number of acres which they bad purchased.—( Hear. )
The Crown could have had no difficulty in carrying out the
terms of that agreement to their full extent. Then the
question arose—what were they bound to under that agree-
ment? He was of opinion that the Company had a title to
land not exceeding the number of acres which had been
a.lotted to them under the award, or that a quantity of
surplus land would be left, which they would have to surrender
to the Crown. He believed the Company had acted fairly in
o
this matter. But, supposing the case that it should be fouud
on investigation that their purchases of land were not good, or,
supposing they were purchased from people who had no title to
dispose of them, the Crown had no right to make such grants.
But he owned that he did nut think the Crown could have
fulfilled their agreement.—(Bear, hear.) But it was in COTI-
- of the expense of bringing out emigrants, and on
account of their being bound to surrender a certain portion of
land to the Crown, and of the expenses which would be thus
entailed upon them that that agreement was made.—( Hear.)
And the agreement was a prudent one. But that there
was any want of consistency in that agreement with the treaty
of Watonga, seemed to him most extraordinary. The mis-
takes of the Company had been their mistakes—they had
fallen into the error into which they had fallen. But taking
all the peculiar circumstances into account, Government
was still bound to carry out that agreement—(Hear, hear)
—and he did not see while they held good faith with the
natives that they should break good faith with the New Zealand
Company. He was at a loss to know whether the concealed
correspondence which took place before Captain Fitzroy went
out was treating the Company
fairly. All that the Govern.
ment were bound to do with respect to the land was, to make
compensation to the Company for the expenses they were put to.
Now, he thought the Government was bound either to put the
Company in'o possession of their land or to make them some
compensation.—( Hear, hear.) He thought that they had a
fair claim in point of compensation, and he did not think that
there was either anything in the treaty of Watonga or in the
agreement to relieve them from that obligation.—( Cheers.)
He might now state shortly what occurred to him was the
proper course to be pursued by the local Government. He
thought the local Government seemed to have included in it
some most earnest and most zealous individuals. They seemed
to have as far as possible consulted the interest of the abori-
gines, and the feeling was strongly shared by himself and by
Lord Normanby, that the aborigines had suffered dreadful ca-
lamities. He thought it would be found an impossibility to
be any time in the Colonial.office, there to read the miserable
condition of the few aborigines left in' North America, without
being touched by a feeling of horror at the sufferings they had
undergone, and could not wonder that the :oval Government of
New Zealand should have been impressed with the same feel-
inst.; but while he gave them ererbt for thi: rrponrous snnii-

by an incident related by the Hon. and Gallant Member for
Westminster (Captain Eons) to the House. A chi f went
into the midst of an encampment of another tribe ; he
watched—he observed them, and, in a short time after leaving,
he returned and exterminated them.
Captain ROUS—It was a party of the enemy, and they
were encamped in time of war.
Lord J. RUSSELL did not doubt the correctness of his
Hon. and Gallant Friend's statement. All he (Lord John
Russell) meant to show was that those individuals had extermi-
nated one another. He was well supported in this opinion by
a letter of the Governor's in the papers presented on the first
of June. The Noble Lord read the letter, which stated that in
the island there was a total disregard of British law and
authority, and, continued the Noble Lord, he came to the
conclusion that we were not strong enough to enforce or main-
tain either. And why was this? Because they had shown a
want of firmness in resisting unjust demands. They had con-
founded kindness with what, in fact, was not such, with some-
thing which led to a foolish inconsistency, the conse-
quence of that conduct everywhere, but more par-
ticularly .where savage life was concerned.—( Hear.)
Having been told that they were entitled to more than another,
one perhaps having git one hundred and fifty pounds for his
land, while another perhaps got two hundred and fifty pounds,
and not knowing what entitled one to more than the other, na-
turally gave rise to a feeling of discontent ; and the tribes be-
came discontented not only with the arrangements for the land,
hut with the whole of the regulations established in the island.
Then, again, a chief went to the Governor, and said, We ob-
ject to that flag of yours, and if you will only take it down, we
shall all he at peace. It was plain from this, that even the
chiefs knew what the flags meant. They thought if Captain
Fitzroy took down the flag, he would at once renounce
his sovereignty over New Zealand, and then their
customs and the whole land would be restored to
them, to enjoy them as they had done before. It was
necessary, then, to consider of some plan for the purpose,
and he owned that he wished the plan that had been made out
by the Right Hon. Baronet were such as to preclude the in-
tervention of Parliament. Hequite agreed with the opinion that
the House of Commons should not interfere without there was
grave cause for interference, but if there was grave cause for
interference, it was their bounden duty to do se.—(Cheers.)
It was their bounden duty to see that the colony, in which
100,030 persons were living under the British flag, was not de-
ranged, or even overturned by the mal-administration of its
laws. The Right Hon. Gentleman told them their scheme for
the future, and with regard to land there was to be a tax on
the wild man, and there was to be registration of the land oc-
cupied by natives, but nothing was said how the registration
was to be conducted. It was easy enough to conduct a regis-
tration in the county of York, but in a place like New Zea-
land it became a matter of some difficulty to do so,
They had done here what they had done in other places ; they
had but maintained the right of the Crown. Hut to maintain
the right of the Crown was not to wrest from the ignorant
natives their lands by trick and stratagem.—(Cheers.) Mr.
Spain said that he had travelled over the country—over
millions of acres of valuable land where the human foot hail
never trod—land which showed the utmost promise if culti-
vation were applied to it. The Crown had at their disposal
that land. But if they said that this land was
to be registered as belonging to the natives,
and to be taken away because they paid no land
tax on it, they could not expect that the nation would see the
justice of this proceeding.—(Cheers.) He owned that this
appeared to him a great injustice, and likely to create a real
insurrection. The Right Hon. Gentleman proposed that there
should be a municipal form of government. One of the first
measures would be to establish a municipal form of government;
but he should like to know what the form of that municipal
government would be? He did not object to a municipal re-
presentative constitution in New Zealand. Then
they should fix the capital where the great body
of the settlers were, and appointing a government
elected from the people, they could settle the claims
of land in accordance with the votes of the great body.
He believed, seeing what Captain Hobsoe and Captain Fitzroy
had done—seeing the errors into which they had fallen—
seeing the dangers into which they had thrown the colony—he
was of opinion that the joint united sense of the settlers, speak-
ing through their representatives, could alone extricate them
from the embarrassments into which they had fallen. Captain
Grey was to be the Governor of the colony. Now he dif-
fered with those who said that a man of character and authority
should be sent out, or a person who had had longer experience
in command. He was of opinion that it required all the
vigour of life of an able-bodied man to bear tip
against the fatigues which a Governor of New Zea-
land was expected to undergo. He was of opinion like-
wise that if they appointed a man of rank like Sir Henry Pot-
tinger, they must give him absolute authority. They must
give him for a time despotic power. He would much rather have
a pence' of inferior name and character, who had not served, or
had so many years of experience, assisted by the people of New
Zealand to manage the affairs of the colony, than have a person
of higher authority, and enjoying absolute power. Of Captain
Grey he knew nothing, except as to his public conduct.
He had seen the reports with respect to the
colony of New South Wales, and they were such as to induce
him to ask him to accept the government of South Australia,
which contained one of the difficult problems to be solved in
the colonial government. Captain Grey had now for four or
five years administered the affairs of the colony, and he had
solved the problem with a degree of energy and success that
he could hardly have expected. He said, then, that if they
could give him good institutions to work with, Captain Grey
was the man to succeed in extricating the colony, and in gaining
the confidence and good will both of the settlers from this country
and the aborigines themselves. Noman could better have shown
himself, by a memoir he had written, to be acquainted with
the manner in which the aborigines ought to be treated
and turned to the usages of civilised life ; but when they
sent a man to undertake this government, it was necessary
that they should send him out divested of all petty squabbles
upon the subject, and therefore he was ready to go with his
Hon. Friend into Committee on the matter. He was not pre-
pared to say that the resolutions come to by the Select Com-
mittee of last year would be fitting resolutions to be
a4opted by a Committee of the whole House ;
but they ought to look to resolutions which
should have regard for the future establishment of a free and
independent constitution that was likely to give confidence
both to those who were there and any of our people who
might be disposed to undertake to settle in that fine
colony. It was not unworthy of the House of Commons to
undertake such -a task. It was their proper function, and if
they did not do it, it would lead colonists to believe that in that
House they could find no redress. If they did it, however, he
thought at the end of that investigation they could console
themselves with the reflection that they had undertaken the
task that was unpalatable to the Government of the day, they
had assisted in laying the foundation of a noble colony, which
at present formed a part of this mighty empire, and which in
future time would extend English majesty, English institutions.
English liberty, and the English name in that part of the world.
Sir R. PEEL—Sir, it would be unfortunate if any diffe-
rences connected with party consideration, or any conflict that
may have been carried on between the Colonial Department
and the New Zealand Company, should divert our attention
from considerations of what is due to the interests of that
colony, which is the immediate object of our deliberation. I
willingly admit that the interests of that colony are recom-
mended to us by many considerations. When I look to the
extent of the colony, the line of the coast, the quantity of land
capable of cultivation and of improvement—when I look, above
all, to its position, and to the new importance it has acquired
by events that have been recently passing before us, by the
opening of the trade with China—l agree with the Noble
Lord, that there appears every probability, so far as we are
able to form a judgment, that this colony, if its interests be duly
regarded, and its welfare fostered, is destined to occupy a most
important station in the world. I agree with the Noble
Lord that it relation with this country is most
important. Shrveying the whole of the unoccupied
portions of the globe, I know of no part of that globe
more calculated to afford a profitable outlay for the
capital and for the employment of the superabundant
population of this country. Every consideration, therefore,
I willingly admit, recommends to our cordial attention the
interests of that important colony. The question is, whe-
ther you will leave the continued charge of it iu the hands
of the executive authority, or whether you will
to-night assume to the House of Commons the
function of determining its future government. Now, what is
the course which her Majesty's Government has taken, under
circumstances which I admit to be somewhat critical ? We
have disapproved of the conduct of Captain Fitzroy, the Go-
vernor of New Zealand, for whose personal character I enter-
tain the highest respect, and for the difficulties of whose posi-
tion I must make great allowance.—(Cheers.) Yet, we have
signified to him in the most formal and authoritative manner,
that his conduct in the administration of affairs in the colony
we did not approve of; and then, though with great reluctance,
but in the performance of a necessary duty, we have removed
him from the post which he undertook exclusively from the
highest and purest motives.—(Loud cheers.) We have
shown, therefore, in the first instance, that we have no desire
to consult the interests and feelings of friends to the prejudice
of the public good.—( Loud cheers.) We have made an ap-
pointment, or contemplate the immediate appointment, of a
successor. The policy of that appointment has been questioned
by some, but I happen to possess the highest authority for the
judicious selection we have made. For the Noble Lord (Lord
John Russell) did himself select Captain Grey for the situation
which he now fills—that of Governor of South Australia.
But some other gentlemen tell us that he is not of high rank
enough. Why, as for these native chiefs of New Zealand, do
not Hon. Gentlemen believe that they attach much more im-
portance to the past success, the character, and the energy of
the man, than they do to the conventional rank which he may
happen to hold. He holds the rank of captain in the army ;
but he has been successful in rescuing a colony from difficul-
ties which were deemed to be very great by those who ap-
pointed him. The Noble Lord says he presumes we shall give
him instructions to enter into personal squabbles with Colonel
Wakefield ; I must say I think that is a most unworthy sugges-
tion.—(Cheers.) We shall give him the assurance of entire
confidence; we shall entrust to him, so far as is con-
sistent with the Constitution and law of this country, an
unfettered discretion, laying down no doubt the general
principles by which we think he ought to be guided ;
in the difficulty of issuing instructions at such a dis-
tance, under the circumstances in which that colony
is placed, the discretion he will have will be unfettered by any
particular instructions.—( Hear, hear.) Now, with respect to
the future government of this colony. Looking at its distance
and the great difficulty of issuing orders from this country for
its government, I for one am strongly inclined to think that
representative government is suited for its condition.—( Hear. )
It has not the objection which might apply in a penal colony.
You have rescued New Zealand, at any rate, from the evils
attending penal establishments. I speak only of the general
principle ; I think there ought to be a form of government
constituted for New Zealand, in connexion with those who are
immediately interested in its local prosperity, assigning to them
a due weight and influence in the administration of affairs. In
short, I cannot think what assignable interest this country can
have in New Zealand, except in the promotion of its pros-
perity. Why, our connexion with it, depend upon it, must
depend altogether upon that connexion being a profitable one.
—( Hear, hear.) It is impossible, at the distance we are from
the country. that we can seek any advantage in a connexion
with New Zealand, except that which may result from re-
ciprocal interest, and, above all, from the promotion of local
prosperity.--( Hear, hear. ) At the same time, it is impossible
not to see the great advantages of a representative govern-
ment. The Noble Lord says, that. Auckland has been im-
properly selected as the seat of the executive Government. I
apprehend there were reasons for it at the time it was so
selected as the seat of the civil and military arrangements;
and the removal of the executive Government from Auckland
must depend not upon local or general considerations merely,
but upon what shall be most advantageous to the colony.—
( Hear, hear.) Considering the distance of the settlements
that are extended over the northern island, it would be no
easy matter now to apply the principle of a representative
government according to the construction we place upon it.
I believe that by far the best plan would be the formation of
municipal governments, with extensive powers of local
taxation, and powers of meeting all local demands to
be established in the first instance. In the opinion of Mr
Burke the farms of representative government in North
America did grow directly out of those municipal institutions.
I do not think it would be wise to adopt the suggestion of the
New Zealand Company, to make a proprietary' government
here. I believe the best form of government will be that the
Crown here should superintend the external regulations of
that country, and that the local executive government should
wine ee rh;:‘••-rnn' W. ~•1
three authorities established? Would you have the drown and
the Company, each exerciseing control over the local govern-
ment ? That is a system of goverment so .ntried and so Lao-

malous, that I cannot think that success would attend it.—
( Hear, hear.) With respect to the Now Zealand Company,
I think it important that they should retain in full exercise
the powers committed to them with regard to settlement
and commerce. I believe that Company may be made a
useful instrument of government, not exercising any
control over the local, government, but as a great
commercial Company, acting on enlightened principles,
and assisting the executive Government in devising means of
emigration and employment fur the surplus population of this
country.—( Hear.) As to the question of revenue, it is very
difficult, at such a great distance, to do more than to lay down
general principles. But wide all my respect for Capt. Fitzroy,
the abandonment of all revenue constitutes a serious mischief.
—( Hear.) The Customs regulations should be re-established,
if there is no other mode of raising a revenue less onerous to
the people of that country.—( Hear, hear.) The fact of their
having been abandoned does not constitute, in my mind, any
objection to their re-establishment.—( Hear, hear.) As I
said before, it would be unfortunate if our personal and party
conflicts prevented us from paying due attention to the inter-
ests of that colony. If I wanted a motive for so treating those
interests, it would be furnished by sympathy for those who went
out thither expecting to find a prosperous home. Having sail
this, I come to the particular m Alton of the Hon. Gentleman. I
come to that motion which was intended, according to the speech
of the Hon. Gentleman, to affix censure and condemnation on
my Noble Friend. I shall vole against the motion, because
the resolutions which the most competent judge of the affairs
of New Zealand, who has read more, and written more, with
respect to New Zealand than, 1 believe, any other man in ex-
istence—because those seventeen resolutions which he has pro-
posed have nothing better to encourage one to agree to them
than that they are admitted to be inapplicable to the state of
affairs in that colony. -( Hear, hear, and a laugh.) That
would he enough to make me determine to oppose them. Yes;
I admit there is one resolution which has a direct reference to
the case of New Zealand—that which declares that respect
should be paid to the treaty of Waitangi. Everybody says he
is ready to respect it. ; but there is a great difference of opinion
as to the mode in which that treaty should be respected.—( A
laugh.) But the Hon. Gentleman inter.ds his motion to be a
condemnation of my Noble Friend.---( Hear, hear.) Now, in
order that you may judge of the justice of these imputation.
upon my Noble Friend, I want to recal your recolleeion to
the circumstances under which you were connected with New
Zealand at first. Your feelings then were very different.
'f here was a different impression on the public mind with
respect to colonial engagements eleven years ago, when your
relations with New Zealand began. In 1.834 there had been a
strong feeling in Parliament and amongst the people of this
country, that England was justly chargeable with injustice in
its treatment of the aborigines. That was the prevailing feel-
ing in 1834. That public man, whose death has been sincerely
lamented by all who admire the devotion of great talents to the
cause of humanity—l mean Sir Fowell Buxton—in the year
1834 in this House moved an address to the Crown to this
effect—" That, deeply impressed with the duty of acting upon
the principles of justice and humanity in the intercourse of this
country with the native inhabitants of its colonial settlements,
the House calls upon the Crown to adopt different principles
from those heretofore acted upon in some of our colonial pos-
sessions." In 1836 a Committee was appointed at the instance
of that same Sir Fowell Buxton ; evidence was taken, and in
1837 a most full and able report was made. This is one obser-
vation in the report. The Committee say---" It might be pre-
sumed that the native inhabitants of any land had an incon-
trovertible right to their own soil—the plain and sacred
right which seems to have been understood in this coun-
try." In 1839 arose the question whether we should form
a new relation with New Zealand. Lord Normauby
was acting under the influence of that report. When
we say that Lord Normanby made an imprudent engage-
ment, that he wrote unwise dispatches, it is easy for
us to lay down those doctrines with regard to Lord Normauby
as you are now disposed to do with respect to the conduct of
Lord Stanley. But we do not remember what the public
fe ling was in regard to our relation with the aborigines
which induced Lord Normanby in 1839 to act as he did. It
was under the influence of that feeling, in the spirit of which
the dispatches were written, tl,as your relation with New Zea-
land was formed, and which now constitutes the difficulties
with which Lord Stanley has to contend. The first dispatch
which Lord Stanley wrote referred expressly—and I cite it as
a proof that what lam stating is correct—to the report of
your Select Committee, and your adoption of the principles of
that report, which had made a deep impression on the public
mind, with regard to the relations you should establish with
the aboriginal natives of any country in which you might
form a settlement. It is not the executive:Government,
but you who are responsible, then ; for you agreed to the ad-
dress to the Crown praying the Crown to protect the rights of
the aborigines ; you are responsible for the doctrines laid down
by the Committee.—( Hear.) Well, the question arose, shall
we establish a relation with New Zealand ; Lord Normanby
expressly referred to the report of the Committee.
Lord Normanby says:—" I have concurred with that Com-
mittee in thinking that the increase of national wealth and
power promised by the acquisition of New Zealand would be a
most inadequate compensation for the injury that must be in •
flitted on this kingdom itself by embarking in a measure essen-
tially unjust, and but too certainly fraught with calamity to a
numerous and inoffensive people, whose title to the soil and
sovereignty of New Zealand is indisputable, and has been so-
lemnly recognised by the British Government." You have
acknowledged New Zealand as a sovereign and independent
state. I think you were wrong in that.—( Hear.) You acted
under impressions that were honourable and natural, but im-
pressions which induced yeti and the executive Government
to adopt a course not only calculated to weaken your authority,
but which was injurious to the natives themselves.—( Hear,
hear.) I think that it would have been infinitely better to
hare commenced relations with New Zealand on the ground
of prior discovery than on the ground of cession on the part
of the chiefs. Ido not hesitate to say that the treaty
of Waitangi was most unwise for the natives themselves.
I think it would have been much better fur us to have
asserted the right of sovereignty with the usual formalities,
rather than to have accepted sovereignty by cession from
the chiefs. Look to what took place in 1839—100 k to
the instructions you gave to Captain Hobson, woo
was to form the treaty. They were to this effect :—" New
Zealand is independent. The Queen, in common with her
Majesty's immediate predecessor, disclaims for herself and sub-
jects every intention to seize on the islands of New Zealand,
or to govern them as part of the dominions of Great Britain,
unless with the free and intelligent consent of the natives, ex-
pressed according to established usage first obtained. The
Government have resolved to authorize you to treat with the
aborigines for the recognition of her Majesty's authority over
the whole or any parts of those islands which they may be
willing to place under her Majesty's dominion." Here, then,
were instructions to Captain Hobson to accept a partial do-
minion from these chiefs I Observe what Lord Normanby
says in his instructions to Oaptain Hobson. He says :--
" These, however, are impediments to be gradually overcome
by the exercise, on your part, of mildness, justice, and perfect
sincerity in your intercourse with them (the natives. )"_.-
(Hear, hear.) You now profess to find that the missionaries
are inconvenient auxiliaries. What said Lord Normanby
to Captain Hobson ? He said,—" You will, I trust,
find powerful auxiliaries amongst the missionaries, who
have won and deserved the confidence of the people,
and among the older British residents, who have
studied their character and acquired their language."
—( Hear, hear.) It is therefore rather hard to turn round
now, and after accepting the aid of the missionaries in esta-
blishing your authority, to denounce them as land-jobbers.—
(Hear, hear.) These methods obviated the dangers of the
acquisition of large tracts of country by mere land-jobbers; it
will be your duty to obtain by fair and equal contracts with the
natives the cession to the Crown of such waste lands as may
be progressively required for the occupation of settlers resort-
ing to New Zealand. There is, then, no claim here on the
part of the Crown to possession of the territory in consequence
of sovereignty, but Captain Hob:on is merely directed to treat
with the natives, according as the wants of the settlers might
arise, for lands not actually enjoyed or occupied by them, but
for the waste lands of the islands, with the express admission
that those lands were of no value to the natives ; for Lord Nor-
manby proceeds:—" To the natives or their chiefs much of the
land of the country is of no actual use." Is it net clear
that Lord Normanby 's instructions to Captain Hobson were to
take the lands, not by any prerogative of the Crown, but by
cession from the natives? I now contrast the language you
hold now, with respect to these engagements, with the
language held then. The New Zealand Company state,
that with respect to these contracts they had always had
serious doubts whether the treaty of Watonga, made with native
savages, would be treated by lawyers otherwise than as a
praiseworthy device for amusing and pacifying savages. I be-
lieve that there are a good many lawyers.in the New Zealand
Company ; and this may be the language of lawyers ; and if
you hold this doctrine, you will vote for the resolutions of the
Hon. Gentleman, for they are founded on such a doctrine.—
( Hear, hear.) But what was the language of statesmen? Was
it that those engagements were a praiseworthy device for
amusing and pacifying savages ?—(llear.) The Noble Lord
opposite wrote to Captain Hobson as follows :—" Among the
many barbarous tribes with which our extended colonial em-
pire brings us into contact in different parts of the globe, there
are none whose claims on the protection of the British Crown
rests on grounds stronger than those of the New Zealanders.
They are not mere wanderers over an extended surface in search
of a precarious subsistence, nor tribes of hunters or of herds-
men, but a people among whom the arts of government have
made some progress; who have established by their own customs
a division and appropriation of the soil ; who are not without
some measure of agricultural skill, and a certain subordina-
tion of ranks, with usages having the character and authority
of law. In addition to this, they have been formally recognised
by Great Britain as an independent State, and even in assuming
the dominion of the country this principle was acknowledged ;
for it is on the deliberate act and cession of the chiefs, on behalf
of the people at large, that our title rests." That was the
language held by statesmen. You must hear before you come
to the vote which the Hon. Gentleman asks you to adopt. Do
not transfer the responsibility to Lord Stanley. He is acting
in pursuance of your avowed intentions, and before you con-
demn you meet hear the qualifications, reserves, and appre-
hensions with which the native chiefs entered into the treaty.
Observe what Captain Hobson says with respect to the forma-
tions of the treaty. He had appointed a levee to be held at the
house of Mr. Busby, at which the parties to this negotiation
were invited to be present. Captain Hobson says:—" Pre-
paratory to the meeting, I had appointed a levee to be held at
Mr. Busby's hots:Se, at eleven o'clock, to which I invited all the
principal European inhabitants, the members of the Chnrch
of England and Catholic missions, and ail the officers of this
ship, and was highly gratified to find that nearly every one
either here or in the neighbourhood favoured me with their
attendance I then read the treaty, a copy of
which I have the honour to inclose ; and in doing so, I dwelt
on each article, and offered a few remarks explanatory of
such passages as they might be supposed not to understand.
Mr. H. Williams, of the Church Missionary Society, did me
the favour to interpret, and repeated in the native tongue,
sentence by sentence, all I said. When I had finished read-
ing the treaty, I invited the chiefs to ask explanations on any
point they did not comprehend, and to make any observa-
tions or remarks on it they pleased. Twenty or thirty chiefs
addressed the meeting, five or six of whom opposed me with
great violence, and at one period with such effect, and so
cleverly,-that I began to apprehend an unfavourable impression
would be produced. Revewah, while addressing me, turned
to the chiefs and said, Send the man away ; do not sign the
paper ; if you do, you will be reduced to the condition of
slaves, and be obliged to break stones for the roads. Your land
will be taken from you, and your dignity as chiefs will be de-
stroyed.' At the first pause Neni came forward and spoke with a
degree of natural eloquence that surprised all the Europeans,
and evidently turned aside the temporary feeling that had
been created. He first addressed himself to his own coun-
trymen, desiring them to reflect on their own condition, to re-
collect how much the character of the New Zealanders had
been exalted by their intercourse with Europeans, and how
impossible it was for them to govern themselves without fre-
quent wars and bloodshed; and he concluded his harangue by
strenuously advising them to receive us and to place confidence
in our promises. He then turned to me and said, You must
be our father. You must not allow us to become slaves. You
must preserve our customs, and never permit our lands to be
wrested from us.' One or two other chiefs, who were favour-
able, followed him in the same strain, and one reproached a
noisy fellow named Kitigi, of the adverse party, with having
spoken rudely to me. Kitigi, stung by the remark, sprang for-
ward and shook me violently by the hand, and I received the
salute apparently with equal ardour. This occasioned amongst
the natives a general expression of applause, and a loud car
from the Europeans. in which the natives
,joined; and thus
tut Lo,tuess ut the meeting Owed, further consideration of
the question being adjourned to Friday at 11 o'clock, leaving,
as I said, one clear day to reflect on my proposal." The conse-
queuce was that the treaty was piped, These were the dr.