The Sun.
London, England, 1827-02-28 00:00:00

THE COURT OF CHANCERY.

• ---
Mr. M. A. TAYLOR being called upon by the
Speaker to make his motion on the subject of separating the ju-
risdiction in matters of Bankruptcy from the High Court of
Chancery, said, that as his Right Hon. and Learned Friend, the
Master of the Rolls, intended on that night to submit to the

House his Bill for the future Regulation of the Court of Chan.
eery, he thought it due as well to his Right Horniurable Friend,
as to the convenience of the House, to withdraw his motion, until
they were in possession of the propositions which were intended to
be carried into effect by that Bill. He hoped, however, that in
thus withdrawing his motion, he would not ulti►nately lose any
thing, as he reserved to himself the power to bring the subject
under their consideration at a future opportunity, as well as to
make any observation in the course of that night, upon a discus-
sion which he might think necessary to a proper elucidation of the
subject. No exertion, he begged to assure them, had been want-
ing on his part, to have those evils and alniSes of the Court of
Chance', under which the suitors of the Court, as well as the
public, had so long Writh,.:cl, fully and fairly examined---(Hear,
hear.),---ana tie trusted the time was now arrived when they
would be effectively redressed.

The MASTER of the ROLLS (in his full of-
ficial robes) then rose to address the House. I have in the first
place to return thanks to my Hon. Friend (Mr. M. A. Taylor),
for his courtesy in giving way on this occasion. I certainly did
anticipate the indulgence which he has afforded me, but at the
same time I am bound to express my acknowledgments for the
readiness with which it was conceded. I rise now, therefore,
in pursuance of the notice I gave some time back, to move for
leave to bring in a Bill to alter and amend the practice of the
High Ckatrt of Chancery. The House is aware, that in the
course of the last Session of Parliament" I gave a notice of
nearly the same description, and that in pursuance of that notice
I obtained leave to bring in a Bill for the same purpose as that
which lam now about to propose. It will be necessary, there-
fore, in the first place, to explain, in a few words, why I did
not avail myself of the permission I then obtained, and why,
I did not follow up the measure I then proposed in the subse-
quent stages. It must be obvious to every one acquainted with
the subject, that a measure which pm posed to alter the course
of proceeding in the highest Court of the Kingdom, must in-
volve great complexity of arrangement, and call for extraor-
dinary minuteness of detail. In the measure which I submit-
ted to the House last Session, there were provisions which would
have rendered it necessary to make an application to Parliament
for a very considerable pecuniary grant, in order to give them
a full and efficient operation. After having given that and
other circumstances a due consideration, it appeared to me, and
to others, by whose advice I was influenced, that it would be
almost impossible, during the remainder of that Session, to
succeed in earring- that Bill, and the other measures by which
it must have been accompanied, through the House of Parlia-
ment in such a manner as to give them the effect of law. These
considerations, therefore, in conjunction with others, indaced
me to abstain from pressing the Bill upon the attention of this
House during that Session, for I thought it would be an idle
waste of time to enter into a discussion of the matters contained
in it, without any prospect of coming to any satisfactory issue,
and involving the House in discussions which could only lead to
unprofitable debates.—(Hear.)—l thought it, therefore, better at
once to abandon the Bill which I then introduced, reserving to
myself the right to repeat the motion when I considered it to he
more expedient, and follow it up by a Bill, embodying those pro-
visions which I thought adequate to effect the reformations which
were proposed. This is the short history of the measure which I
then introduced ; and I am happy to be able to say that I have
reason to believe that I acted correctly upon that occasion, and
that the course I pursued has obtained the approbation of those
whose soundness of judgment entitles them to respect. I rejoice,
indeed, that I did so postpone the consideration of the question,
because that postponement has afforded me additional opportuni-
ties to consider subjects, as I have already observed, of very great
difficulty, and to mature, from further deliberation, the plans
which lam about to submit to the House. I am satisfied, too,
from that more mature consideration, that it will not be necessary
in the Bill I am now about to propose,to make any provisions which
would call for pecuniary assistance; but that, on the contrary, we
will be able to carry all its objects into effect, without requiring
any grant of money from the House. It will not be expected
that I should now go into an explanation of all the particulars of
the evils or the remedies, as applicable to the practices of the
Court of Chancery, with the same minuteness of detail,
as when I had last the honour to address the House
on this subject. lam convinced that such a course would be as
irksome to the House, as it would be painful to myself. I shall
endeavour, therefore, to treat the subject generally, and to ren-
der my references as clear and us intelligible as possible, not only
to those who are acquainted with the practice of the Court—at
least in its outline—hut also to those who are not practically ac-
quainted with the Court, and who have no previous knowledge
upon the subject. In the first place, therefore, it will be neces-
sary to understand the nature of the subject, that I should get rid
of all those cavils and objections which have no bearing upon the
question we are about to examine. I may say, with confidence,
that I have never found any one individual, upon whose judg-
ment I could place the least reliance, who attempted to find fault
with that system of jurisprudence which distinguishes the Court
of Chancery from the other Courts of Civil and Criminal Law,
and which is with us called Equity. I never recollect any one
who ventured to assert that the jurisdiction of that Court could
be dispensed with ; and, considering the nature of the subjects
brought uuder its consideration, which it is called upon to be con-
versant with, I consider it impossible that such a Court could be
dispensed with in the present state of society. If a party enters
into an agreement, the stipulations of which may be binding to a
great extent, every person knows that if we attempt to call him
to a specific performance of his contract, the law affords no re-
medy. The relief which, in that case, must be obtained, is pe-
culiar to a Court of Equity. If I have a tenant who, under
the power of a lease, attempts to cut down my timber
and to commit other dilapidations upon my property, what
remedy have I in a Court of Law ? There is none to be had.
If I wish to obtain my object, I moat call upon a Court of
Equity to interpose, and prevent what would otherwise prove
perhaps an irreparable injury to my property.—(Hear, hear.)—
I mention these instances to show that a Court of Equity pos-
sesses a power of affording relief which cannot be dispensed
with, and which we might seek in vain from a Court of Law ;
and I repeat an observation I made before, that I never knew
an individual, who possessed any knowledge upon the subject,
and whose opinion could be relied upon, who would venture to
say that equity could be dispensed with, that what is called equity

could be even administered by the Courts of Law, or that it
could be afforded by any other means than a distinct and dif-
ferent tribunal, limited to a peculiar object. If that be so, and

I can scarcely think it will be denied, then it will not bediffi-
cult to understand the points to which our inquiries must be di-
rected. Before, however, I go farther, I think it right to en-
deavour to remove a reproach which has been frequently cast
upon the Court of Chancery with respect to the slowness o£
its operations as compared with those of the Courts of Law.
In one respect the operations of the Court of Chancery are im-
peded from the very nature of the questions which it is called
upon to determine. In a Court of Law, there is only one issue
to be tried, upon which the Court may be, perhaps, able to
decide almost instantly. In a Court of Equity, the Judge who
presides is called upon to determine upon many complicated
questions connected with large masses of property in the hands
of various individuals, and to decide between the claims of one
body of men and another body, supporting their rights upon
different interests. To take, for an illustration to the House, a
familiar instance of the nature of proceedings in the Court of Law
and the Court of Equity. A man sues another for a debt in a
court of law. The questions to be determined are simple—the
existence of the debt, and its amount, and the process is ended.
Let us take an analagous case in a court of equity, and see the
course of proceeding there. A man dies insolvent, and the whole
mass of his creditors step in--and demand a division of his
effects ; but instead of the question being determined there, as in
a court of law, by one action, every individual creditor is called
upon to prove his debt, and there are, consequently, as many
causes to be tried as there are creditors to claim. It would be no
difficult matter to enumerate many other instances in which a
complexity, arising from the claims of several parties might
occur, which could only be settled in a court of equity. The
interests and the proportion of interests which contending claim-
ants had frequently in property, could only be adjusted in such
a court. No person, therefore, I presume, supposes that equity
can or ought to he dispensed with, or that it is not essentially ne-
cessary to continue and persevere in our jurisprudence. I yield
to no man in my admiration of Cie simplicity of proceedings in
courts of law-1 have been brought up in early prejudices in fa-
vour of that simplicity; hut it is in consequence of the separation
of the business in the courts of law, from that which should be
conducted in courts of equity, that the simplicity of the former has
been preserved ; it is in consequence of this just distribution,
that a single Judge in one year has been able to dispose of, during
the sittings of Middlesex and Westminster, causes to the number
of 3,ooo.—(Hear !)--These preliminary observations I deemed it
necessary to make, to assist me in directing the attention of the
House to the points which it appeared to me most requisite that
their attention should he directed. It is necessary in the next
instance, I should call the attention of the House to the course
pursued by the Commission appointed two years ago to inquire
into the supposed abuses of the mode of proceedings in the Court
of Chancery. When that Commission was issued for the pur-
pose of suggesting the mode of rectifying those abuses ; the objects
to which they directed their inquiries were—the practice of the
Court; whether any, and what alteration could be introduced into
that practice, with a view of introducing alterations in it, in order

to diminish the expence and abridge the time which it was com-
plained that the proceedings in that Court entailed. These were,
in my opinion, legitimate and proper objects. And for this pur-
pose the Commission was directed to persons of great intelligence,
great learning, and, with the exception of two or three persons (to
whom I will presently refer), to persons conversant in the business
and mode of proceeding in the Cotirt of agnecry. Persons better
qualified for the task entrusted to them could not be found in the
country. I know it has been said, that though they were very
learned persons, yet the Commission was composed of men, wh,)3e
prejudices prevented them from coming to a just judgment on the
subject. In answer
,to that obiection, I beg to say, that on that
Commission was to be found the name Ot niy notion:Ale and
Learned Friend the Member for Tregony (Dr. Lushington), who
if he was capable of being swayed by prejudices at all on such a
subject, his prejudices certainly leant the other way. The Report
of that Commission, to which the name of my Honourable and
Learned Friend was subscribed, formed the basis of the Bill

which it is my intention this night to introduce. To that Re-
port was also subscribed the name of an Honourable Gentle-
man, not no* a Member of that Hotise (we believe Mr. Robert
Smith)—a gentleman Whom lam proud to call his frierfel--:-a
gentleman of great learning, and an accomplished scholar—
active, industrious, zealous, indefatigable, and whose in-
flexible and uncompromising character was an assurance
of his views not being influenced by prejudice of any
kin. The applause
.of the country was due to this Gentleman
for his asaiduous and pereevering attention, day after day, at the
Committee. I will then confidently reft. to the autbority of
these two names—l might refer to that of others—to contradict
and refute the supposition that prejudice prevailed in the prepa-
ration of the Report on which the Bill I propose to introduce has
been founded. The Bill, therefore, will have this recommenda-
tion, that it had not been founded or any crude and undigested
suggestions of my own, but that it takes the result of two years'
deliberate inquiry as the basis of its recommendation to the
adoption of Parliament. The object of the Bill then is, to give
effect to that Commission which was appointed with the applause
of the House and the Country—(Hear, hear)—l do not undertake
implicitly to follow or abide by all the recommendations in that
Report. A year and upwards has elapsed since that Report was
published, and it is not to be wondered that that Report on so
complex a subject, and embracing such intricate details as it ne-
cessarily did, should have been so long before the public—so long
before the acute and discerning eye of a learned profession, with-
out having many improvements suggested and superadded to those
contained in the Report of the Commission. Of some of these
suggestions I propose to avail myself, in altering and modifying
some of the propositions recommended by the Commission for the
adoption of the Legislature, where such suggestions appear to me
to promote more effectually, than the propositions themselves,
the due administration of justice. And here I must take leave to
remark upon the course pursued by a Noble and Learned Lord, a
member of that Commission, but who did not sign the Report (Lord
Redesdale), than whom there is no man better informed—in-
deed I may say so well informed—on the details of the subject
into which the Commission was appointed to inquire. With all
the respect that I entertain for that Noble Lord, I cannot forbear
from expressing my regret that he did not attend at the investi-
gations of the Commission day after day, to discuss the proposi-
tions which thew proposed, or to suggest others which he might
wish to have substituted for them. I regret, Sir, I say, that lie
did not adopt this course rather than adopt the mode which he
has done of afterwards publishing his opinions in a pamphlet,
canvassing and questioning the propriety and prudence of the
propositions contained in the Report of the Commissioners.—
(Hear, hear, hear.)—l feel myself called upon to speak out thus
boldly of the course pursued by the Noble Lord, notwithstanding
the great respect I entertain for his extensive learning and great
talents. In considering this subject fully and impartially, how-
ever, I am free to admit that there are some suggestions of the
Noble Lord deserving the greatest „attention. I have availed
myself of and profited by those suggestions. Into the detail of
these suggestions in the pamphlet of the Noble Lord I will not
now enter. I will merely mention one, and I will mention it
because it is a striking one. My learned friends will understand
me when I say, that among the propositions recommended by
the Commission, is one " that the decision of Masters in Chan-
cery should be final on questions of exceptions." Now the voice
of the profession has been very loudly, and, I think, not unrea-
sonably, raised against the adoption of that proposition, and I will
tell the House why—without explaining fully the nature of ex-
ceptions, I will merely say that it not unfrequently happens that
the issue of a cause involving property to a considerable amount,
may depend upon exceptions. To leave, therefore, the decision
of the blaster final on that on which may determine the
disposal of large property in some cases, though not in all, without
a permission to appeal, is a power which, I concur with Lord Re-
desdale in thinking, ought not to be vested in Masters, and is one
that in practice would be found inconsistent with a sound system
of jurisprudence. The inconvenience that would arise must be
obvious, from the consideration of their being ten Masters in
Chancery, and there might be ten different rules of decision—
(Hear, hear, hear !)—and the House must perceive that this
would lead to the evil (than which could be more mischievous) the
introduction of vagueness into the law of property. I object to
the recommendation of the commission, which would not allow
Appeal from the decision of the Master on questions of exceptions,
but I propose also to restrict the pi ivilege of Appeal, and not to
permit it to be transferred from the Master's to the Vice-Chaneel-
lor's Court, or the Master of the Rolls, and from their Courts to
the Lord Chancellor, and from his decision finally to the House of
Lords. This, I think, would be too extensive a permission of
Appeal, and instead of this unrestricted right of Appeal, it may_
be well to enter into some compromise, to adopt some restrictive
modification of the right, and to limit it to one Appeal; the party
having the choice of the Court to which the Appeal may be
brought, and reserving a power, in cases of nicety and intricacy,
to give his sanction, if he should deem it necessary, to an Appeal
to the ultimate tribunal. I will now proceed to other propo-
sitions recommended in the Report of the Commissioners, and
with the view of rendering the subject intelligible to all the Mem-
bers of the House, I will first explain what a suit in Chancery is,
than the outline of which there can be nothing more simple.—(A
slight laugh from the Opposition.)—l repeat, there is nothing
more simple than the outline of a Suit in Chancery ; it is in the
minuteness of filling up the details that the evil exists. If I may
borrow an illustration from the art of painting—it is as a picture
—the outline of which is simple and beautiful, but the effect of
which is destroyed by the elaborate detail of the artist. The mode
of proceeding in a suit in Chancery is this:—The plaintiff starts
in the cause by filing a bill, in which he states his own case in
his own way. The opposite party is called upon for an an-
swer, which is made on oath. In many cases, from the contra-
diction in the allegation—from the secret trusts to be sifted out—
and from various causes, a supplemental bill and answer are filed
by the plaintiff, and then the case is generally ripe for hearing.
In many instances the case may be decided upon the bill and
answer alone. In a variety of cases evidence is heard on both
sides, the case is set down for hearing, and the Judge pronounces
hjuisddgeechisasion.proAnofutenreeedvihdeisncjeudggomnee int,nthoefoorn b
e.
otohtehr sides,trihn nnaslsd,
the
sciaosne
ofis uthsuea
jllnydgate ainn enEdq.nityßuist nnaoterseolyindeeeqisiinvtoy.
onTthhee
pfirrisntcdipeciet
This decision leads to an inquiry into the next of kin or other
porn • ts of detailed investigation, according to the circumstances of
the case. This inquiry is conducted in the Master's Office, and,
upon it, the Master makes his report. This is the course of pro-
ceeding in a suit of Chancery, than which nothing can be more
simple and intelligible. Now the Commission recently appointed,
directed its inquiries with a view of ascertaining the causes of de-
lay from the issuing of the first process up to final judgment. In
prosecuting this inquiry the Commission followed the several
stages of a suit in Chancery, in every possible shape which, in its
progress, it could assume. They strove to determine what could
be dispensed with, what step could be abated, what process extin-
guished, what alterations, accompanied by improvement of any
kind, could be adopted ; and these objects of investigation the
Commission pursued with a patience and perseverance that en-
titled them to the applause of the country. I have not heard any
Gentleman say that the Commission has not done enough. The
only doubt I have at all heard expressed, is whether they have not
done too much.—(Hear, and a laugh.)---Hon. Gentlemen may
smile, but the course pursued by the Commission, I contend, has
been a legitimate and a proper one. Among the complaints
alleged against the Court of Chancery, was the evil that was stated
to arise from setting down causes for hearing within a
given period of time, which hearing did not take place
until long after that given time had elapsed. In order to form a
just judgment on this part of the subject, it was material that the
Commission should ascertain if any and what impediments created
this inconvenience. The principal impediment was found to be
the multiplicity of business of the Court ; and to remedy this
inconvenience, it was proposed that part of the business should
be taken away from that Court and transferred to other tribunals.
It might be a fair subject of inquiry, what portion and what de-
scription of business it was that might, with safety to the due
administration of justice, be removed from the jurisdiction of the
Court of Chancery, and transferred iu the manner recommended.
Upon the subject of the increase of arrears, by returns laid be-
fore Parliament two years ago, the business of Courts of Equity
was certainly considerably in arrear. That arrear was in a great
degree occasioned by the long indisposition of Sir Thos. Ploiner,
and of the Vice-Chancellor. I can state, that upon recent in-
quiries which I have made into the subject, there has been no
growing increase of arrears. It is so far, therefore, a console

ion to knots, that there has been of late years no growing in-

crease of business, and that We will be able to apply the addi-
tional facilities which the present Bill proposes, without having
greater difficulties to contend against than we contemplated at
the commencement of the labours of the Commission.—(Hear,

hear !)—Another ground of complaint against proceedings
in Chancery, is the delay in the Master's office. That
there it great delay in this department, I admit ; and I
admit, too, that the great secret of the delay generally com-
plained of, lies in the delay here. This, for the most part,
is attributable to the nature of the inquiries conducted in
the Master's office; certainly not to any neglect or dilatori-
neSs op the part of the Masters themselves. When the busi-
ness then Was ripe for decision, and ready for decision as
promptly and rapidly as a decision under circumstances could
be prepared, the blame of delay was r ot attributable to them ;
the evil was that they have no power to give activity to
their proceedings. They had not adequate means to advance
the business in their offices. To whom then is the blame attri-
butable? Unwilling as I am to say any thing that might appear
disadvantageous to any class of men, yet I am bound to say that
this delay is chiefly imputable to the agents. Indeed, situated as
the agents were in their relation to the Master's office, it was not
to be wondered at that they were not more attentive than they
were to the business there. There is scarcely a respectable soli-
citor in London who has not more business in the Courts of Law
than he can conveniently get through, and he naturally attends to
that which he is obliged to do, and leaves undone that which he
can do at any time. If a Solicitor in a Court of Law does
.not
attend to the businees of his client, the suffering client has a claim
upon bins to pay his costs. But the Solicitor who attends at the
Master's offices merely takes out a warrant which only costs two
shillings, so that Whether he attends or not, he only sustains a
trifling loss in consequence of his neglect. This was no doubt a
great inconvenience, and one which presented difficulties against
which it was not perhaps easy to provide by a legislative measure.
It is necessary, however, to give adequate authority to the Master,
in order to expedite advance the business of the office. The
Report of the Commission suggested a remedy for this evil, which
it would be fair at first to put to the test of trial ; and if it was
not found adequate to the purpose for which it was intended, the
Legislature may apply a fresh stimulus with a view of getting rid
of the Oil. Another object to be attained was, the diminishing
Whatever forms Were not found necessary for the efficient adminis-
tration of justice. Whatever deduction could be made, and what-
ever process could be safely spared, should be done with a view of
expediting the business. Another inconvenience, and a very great
one was, that by a little ceremony, and ingenuity of practice, a
party in the Court of Chancery might prevent the termination
in form of a mit, for two years from the commencement of it.
Now this was a great inconvenience, and resulted from the power
possessed by the party of amending his Bill. This permission
should not he unrestricted, or it must necessarily lead to inter-
minable protraction of suits, and he attended with manifest in-
justice to the party to whose fair interests this delay was opposed.
Accordingly, it is proposed in the present Bill, to place proper
limits to the practice in this department of the business of the
Court of Chancery ; and one ef the propositions,
With which were
ect t 1800
res
in number, suggested a remedy for p
these propositions, it had been said that ethviely mbraced for the
.
most part recommendations, to which the Lord Chan::. ellor, by
his own fiat, could give the force of law—(Hear, hear, lies.
from the Opposition !)—Gentlemen might cheer ; but it was
doubtful if the Lord Chancellor could, by his authority alone,
give to some of the measures contained in these propositions the
force of law ; and it was therefore better by far to give to those
propositions a Legislative sanction at once—recommended as they
were by the patient persevering attention given to the preparation
of them by twelve eminently qualified gentlemen, who continued
their labours for two years, and of which labours these proposi-
tions were the result. I will now direct the notice of the
House to the course respecting the Bill founded on these pro-
positions, which I would recommend the House to adopt. There
were two courses which the Legislature might pursue. The
first was, it might authorise the Lord Chancellor to give the
effect of law to these propositions. Secondly, we might, from
a certain day, declare that they shall be law. The latter of
these courses I think the preferable one; it is more direct and
rapid in its effects than the former one—and advantages, which
I shall be prepared to point out, if the Bill should go into a Com-
mittee, will be derived, from a legislative sanction being given to
them, and from making them consistent with the rest of the sys-
tem. In the Bill which I intend to introduce, I propose to re -
serve a power for the Lord Chancellor to act, from time to time,
on these propositions, in such manner as he may think proper—.
that is, that the Legislature should give the stamp and sanction
of law to the proposition it adopts, and that it may then leave to
the Lord Chancellor the exercise of a discretion to bring them
into force and action, as circumstances may require. This is not a
novel course of proceeding. Besides the reason of the thing, and
the certain inconvenience that must result from adopting a dif-
ferent course, this mode of proceeding is not a novel one—it is
not without precedent. It was impossible to anticipate the work-
ing of the system which I propose, until it is fairly tried, and
therefore much must depend upon the foresight and prudence
to whom the superintendence of the working of it was en-
trusted. In a similar case, the adoption of certain regulations
by Parliament, in the reign of George 1., for regulating the
office of Accountant-General—in the Bill of confirmation of
those regulations, a clause of reservation was introduced, autho-
rising the Court of Chancery to alter and modify these regu-
lations which had passed into law, if it should see a case of
necessity that required. tinder present circumstances there
appears to me an absolute necessity of pursuing a similar course.
This will appear more fully when these propositions come to
be discussed in a Committee, into which I shall enter without
any anxiety, without any partiality for the propositions, but
that they may be as perfect as possible—that they' may con-
tribute to the accomplishment of the good which we all have
in view.—(Hear, hear !)—For this reason I solicit the support
and assistance in the Committee of my Hon. and Learned Friends
in this House, and also of the many Gentlemen in this House,
who, although unacquainted with a technical knowledge of the
profession, from their intelligence and acuteness, may be able to
give very valuable assistance. I invite them to assist me in the
vigorous prosecution of a measure in which there is nothing of
party, nothing of passion, nothing of what is personal.—(Hear.)
I call particularly on my Honourable and Learned Friend (Mr.
Brougham), who is so capable of affording valuable and useful co-
operation; and to another lion. and Learned Friend (Dr. Lush-
ington), who signified his approbation of these propositions by
affixing his signature to the, Report. I call upon them to put
from all parts of the House, instead of
tchoemirmshitotueeld;erasntdo
Itheexspveheeet l, by becoming active Members of the
indulging in complaints and thwarting our design, to assist in ac-
complishing
ir,to p
this
opgreatoost: someject,
nesolw regulationsforongcalledv
Ibyithe ther
spt to
eccountry.
I intend,
the Masters in Chancery ; and I will explain to the House the
course which I mean to recommend to them to adopt on this
subject, not doubting that they will agree with me in the pro-
priety of the measure. I mean then to propose an alteration in
the mode in which Masters in Chancery are now paid. The
principal source of their present emolument is what is called
Copy-money. They receive twelve pence per folio on their pro-
ceedings ; being three times the price of the ordinary common law
charges. This anode of payment has given rise tovarious reproaches
am insinuations, from illiberal minds ; and the assertion which I
am persuaded is utterly unfounded that the Masters frequently ex-
tend their proceedings, merely for the sake of the additional emolu-
ment which they thence derive. Now. Sir, Judges ought not to be
subject to such imputations, however groundless; there should not
be any room whatever for any suspicion upon the subject--(Hear).
In a country like this, not even the most illiberal person living
should be able to breathe the slightest accusation against the
purity of an individual in such a station, or have the slightest
colourable pretext for the charge. The Commissioners there-
fore recommend that the present mode of remunerating the Mas-
ters in Chancery should be abolished ; and I am persuaded that
the House will see the propriety of adopting the recommendation.
But, Sir, when I state that the emoluments of each Master of
Chancery, according to the mode in which they are at present
remunerated, amount to from fifteen hundred to eighteen hundred
pounds a year, the House will see that as there are six Masters
there will be a large deficiency to supply. When we are intro-
ducing reforms in the Court of Chancery we ought not to endeav-
our to render those reforms efficient at the expence of the fair re-
muneration which is due to any individual. Every public man
ought to be justly paid for the services which he renders to the
public. The services of the Masters in Chancery are of a most
arduous description, demanding great industry and toil ; and the
persons who are qualified to fill the highly respectable situation
of a Master in Chancery, are entitled to liberal advantages. The
revenue which I have just described as that which they at present
receive, is by no means too large for their services. But if we de-
prive them of the source from which that revenue is now de-
rived, from what source shall we determine that it shall henceforth
be derived ? The fees on their Reports are at present exceedingly
small. In consequence of the large allowance which they are at pre -
sent accustomed to receive as copy-money, no attention has been
paid to their fees, which are on the lowest scale. What is the re-
• medy then which I propose? I propose, in the first place, that the
fees shall be raised to bear. a snore just proportion to the services
performed by the Masters; always taking care that they shall not
be so much raised as to give them more than they at present re-
, ceive. But even when the fees shall be raised to the extent which I
recommend, there will still be a deficiency. How is that to be

supplied ? Each of the Masters in Chancery has already a salary
of six hundred pounds which he receives out of a fund in the
Court of Chancery, which has been gradually accumulating for
above a century. There are various and large charges Paid out of
that fund, but still there is a residue amply, and more than amply,
sufficient to meet the purpose in view. I propose, therefore, that
the deficiency in the emoluments of the Masters in Chancery,
created by the alteration which I have described, shall be supplied
out of that fund ; I think the House will be of opinion that I have
suggested a very proper mode of effecting the object.—(Hear,
hear, hear.)—The Masters in Chancery themselves, will, I should
suppose, be, generally speaking, much pleased at the alteration.
They must, I should suppose, be anxious to free themselves from
the reproaches and insinuations of illiberal minds, and from the
suspicion that they are interested in extending the proceedings
before them. While I say this Sir, I must be allowed to protest
against an opinion which, within a few days, has been promul-
gated by a single Master in Chancery, the Senior Master, but who
I hope speaks his own opinion alone, and not the opinion of the
body to which he belongs. This Senior Master in Chancery de-
clares, it seems, that Parliament has no right to interfere on the
subject. He declares that if the interference should be persevered
in, the Masters ought all to retire. Let them retire But this
Learned Gentleman says they ought to retire with all the
salaries and emoluments which they enjoyed during the perform-
ance of their duty. Sir, this Learned Gentleman ought to
be aware that there is not a Session of Parliament in which
an Act does net pass imposing additional burdens of duty on
the Judges, both in Courts of Law and Courts of Equity,
without giving them any additional emolument ; and that it ig
on these terms that those individuals accept their high
offices. I feel entitled to animadvert in this House on the,
Learned Gentleman's statment, because the time at which
he made it, and the industry with which it has been circu-
lated, sufficiently show that it was intended to influence the
House in their decision on the proposed Bill ; and I really
cannot applaud the style in which the Learned Gentleman says
that he feels called upon to discharge an important duty, and that
as far as in him lies he will not suffer any injury to be inflicted
on the sovereignty of the Great Seal, and therefore protests against
the proposed Bill.—Sir, among the other recommendations of the
Commissioners is the appointment of some other off., .s namely,
of two additional Registrars. I have attentively considered this
part of the Report, in conjunction with other individuals, and I
am perfectly satisfied that it will not be necessary to take any
step with reference to it at the present period. I am unwilling
when we are about to entail a long series of compensations on the
country, to add to the pressure by any such measure. I think that
without any public injury it may be postponed. Let us at least
try the system as it is now proposed to modify it ; and, if it is
found that the existing officers are not adequate to the discharge
of the new duties cast upon them, then will be the time to
come to Parliament for aid. But, Sir, I do not want
to encounter the present Bill, or to endanger the success
of it ; for which I am so anxious, by provisions which
might give dissatisfaction on pecuniary grounds. I am
afraid that it may he said, that under the pretext of in-
troducing a reform into the Court of Chancery favourable
to the public, we are turning round upon the public, and, instead
of effectually protecting them from the grievances of which
they complain, are adding to their burdens. Until, therefore,
I am satisfied, by the working of the system, as modified, that
thes.; new officers are necessary, 1, for one, will not propose
h ,Letion. There is one subject, Sir, connected with
this i r
question, i n
wh,,ls is of great and paramount importance. I
mesa
to bankruptcy. These are questions
most
tntrn
of a great commercial country
to state, that the result of
deeply
p questions e
affectingstion r ela
theti s
ii:n
like this. On that questotnerelst:Lce
.
much anxious consideration and consultation: is, that I do not
think it advisable to recommend the adoption, as thzrt of the pre-
sent Bill, of the proposition of the Commissioners respees`jnY Bank-
ruptcy. The subjects ought not to be blended. The great tpea-
tion of bankruptcy ought not to be united to propositions respects
ing extensive and minute details respecting the Court of Chancery.
With the permission of the House, therefore, I will not submit
that subject as a part of the measure which I am about to propose-
It is a subject which well deserves to be considered by itself. If
the House shall agree with me in opinion, I pledge myself always
to keep in view the recommendations of the Commissioners as the
Bankruptcy Question ; and to bring forward a separate messace
respecting it, which shall have the most full and explicit discsas
sion.—(Hear, hear, hear.)—Surely, Sir, the reform of the Court
of Chancery is quite enough fur the subject- of one Bill. The Court
of Chancery has no jurisdiction in cases of bankruptcy. Althosagb
the Lord Chancellor decides on those cases, he desides not as Lord
Chancellor, but as Keeper of the Great Seal. The two subjects
have no connexion, and should net be comprehended in tte- same
Bill. The bankruptcy question deserves a separate consideration;
and I again pledge myself that the House shall have ample oppor-
tunities of considering it. Sir, I have already said, and I repeat
it, that I am most anxious for the success of this Bill. It is an
anxiety which I know that I only share with his Majesty'l Minis-
ters. It has been asserted, Sir, that the Chancery Commission
originated only in the motion after motion which was made on the
subject on the other side of the House. I deny it ; and I can po-
sitively state that from the moment the Commission was issued,
every Member of his Majesty's Government was anxious for its
successful investigation of the subjects submitted to. Of the dis-
position of Government on these points the House has, indeed,
practical evidence in the noble and anxious efforts made by my
Right Hon. Friend the Secretarrof State for the Home Depart-
ment, from time to time, to reform the Criminal Law of the coun-
try. I trust, Sir, that we shall all unite in these and similar ex-
, ertions ; I trust that no personal consideration, and no party feel-
ing, will interpose. If so, there is no difficulty on the subject
which the House of Ciammons cannot surmount ; and in this per-
suasion I beg leave to conclude by moving for leave to bring Ma
Bill to alter and amend the practice of the Court of Chancery.--
(Hear, hear, hear.)
Mr. M. A. TAYLOR declared that the present
was only another of those measures which on former occasions
had been proposed for the purpose, not of accomplishing, but of
defeating the object which the House ought to keep steadily in
view. To those who had not witnessed the transactions in that
House respecting the Court of Chancery during the last twenty
years, his Right Honouralale and Learned Friend must have ap-
peared
,to open a very fair and pleasant case. The dispensing
power asked for by the Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman was
a new feature in legislative transactions. It was impossible to
accede to this proposition ; and , with regard to the proposed
Bill itself, whatever facility his Majesty's Government might
be disposed to give on the subject, and however anxious both
sides of the House might be to amend the Bill in the Com-
mittee, he (Mr. Taylor) would venture to say, that it
would its no way expedite the business in the Court
of Chancery. Before the year 1811, he . (Mr. Tay-
lor) had repeatedly called the attention of the House to the
delays in the Court of Chancery ; but all that he said appeared to
make no impression. At length, in 1811, by the casting vote of
the Right Hon. Gentleman in the Chair, he obtained a decision
of the House, that they would examine into the causes of the de-
lays in the Court of Chancery. In all his statements on these
subjects, he was not actuated by any personal feeling hostile to-
wards Lords Lord Eldon ; but he was bound to speak the truth and
he would speak it. It was well known that, on the occasion to
which he had just alluded, so anxious was the Noble and Learned
Lord, that he remained in his own room until the result of the
debate was ascertained. In the appointment of the Committee,
to whom the examination was referred, however, Mr. Perceval,
the Minister of that day, very dexterously took care that the ma-
jority of the names should be of persons friendly to the Lord
Chancellor's views ; and left him (Mr. Taylor) with very few
friends ; among whom, however, he had the satisfaction to
find his lamented and valuable friend Sir S. Romilly. On
that occasion Mr. Perceval had shown the cloven foot ; and
notwithstanding the polished manners of the Right Hon. and
Learned Gentleman who had just addressed them, the cloven
foot was again visible. In the year 1811, after many difficul-
ties, and notwithstanding the efforts of the Lord Chancellor's
adherents, a Report was at length made; and if the House would
revert to that Report they would see what the state of the Court
forte tee
Israhtiac gha nt
livna
31 8a
pl
po2 .inte
dif
tohfeChn
pd
edthteon
istvtaos.
folfill'hteheCoobmj
elnctit
and to inquire into the causes of the delays in the Court of
Chancery. " 0 no," said one of the Members, a Master in
Chancery, " we are merely assembled to inquire what are the
arrears." It is true, he was a new made Master, and knew then
very little about the matter.—(A laugh.)—l showed him the vote
of the House. He asked in what way it could be complied with.
Sir S. Romilly replied, by calling on professional men to oats
what they conceived to be the cause of the delays, " Oh no !'
rejoined the Master, " that will be driving at the Lord Chan.
cellos." The result was, that, he (Mr. Taylor) was left in a
minority in the Committee, with Sir Samuel Romilly, aid a
few others. Upon that he made a motion in the House fee
fresh instructions to the Committee. The motion was negatived.
The fact was, that Lord Eldon would not consent to it. Th(
Noble and Learned Lord had himself told hitn so.—(A laugh.)—
When the Noble and Learned Lord found that the business which
he had to perform was more than he could accomplish—when hi
found that the possession of the Great Seal added intolerably to his
burdens_ ought he not to have come forward and relieved laimsel
from the oppression. And why did he not do so ? Because the
possession of that office was most profitable.—(Hear, hear-bear.:
Had it not been so, Lord Eldon would long ago have dissever%

Ilinsself from it.--(Hear, hear, hear.)—What did the profession
lay on the subject? That the great failure arose from the bank-
ruptcy question. It was impossible to give the Lord Chancellor
the credit he demanded for disinterestedness. But the Lord Chan-
cellor was a diffisult person to deal with. He had all the patron.
age of the law ; he had. extensive patronage of other descriptions ;
and he was a pleasing, amiable, agreeable gentleman.—(A laugh.)
The Noble and Learned Lord had no doubt threatened to
resign ; but, great as his abilities were, there were certainly
other men who could sit in a Court of Equity as well as Lord
Eldon. In fact, he was convinced that men with only half the
Noble and Learned Lord's talents, but with a little vigour and
Main intellect, would speedily get rid of the arrears by which the
Court of Chan -cry was at present disgraced. With respect to
the plan now proposed for expediting the business of the Court of
'Chancery, it reminded him of some plans which, when he was a
-young Member of the House of Commons, and Mr. Palmer pro-
posed his mail-coach plan, it had been attempted to substitute for
that plan ; but by which only half an hour was gained in cases in
which by Mr. Palmer's plan the gain was above six hours. So it
was with the plan for expediting the proceedings in the Court of
Chancery now recommended ; and the only result of it would be
that instead of a suitor in that Court suffering the infliction of tieing
Subjected to six years' proceedings in the Court, he might perhaps
be let off with five years. With regard to the proposition respect-
!ng bankruptcy which had been made by this famous Commission,
It Was so absurd that the Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman was
lery glad to abandon it. In addition to all the load of expence
Attached to the country in bankruptcy cases, the Report reemns
':needed the appointment of ten more Commissioners, to be ap-
lathfted by Lord Eldon ; and who were to sit and heat appeals
'for te purpose of relieving the Noble and Learned Lord. He
\l'esi confident that at least three parts of the Bar were satisfied
that,the Court of Chancery could not possibly go on, without the
separation of the bankruptcy cases. In the Committees which
30 in 1811 and 1812, it was given in evidence that two or thrte
Petitions of bankruptcies were almost every day set down for hear-
ing before the actual cause-paper, which was the real jurisdiction
rof the Court. Mr. Cook, and a variety of other persons, had
told the commission that this separation was the only relief that
mould be effectually given. But would the Commissioners state
where they were to find a man to conduct this business?
would say that the Chief Baron of the Exchequer was a man of
4ligh repute, and whose other avocations would not prevent his
Undertaking this service. Here they were in the eighteenth cen-
laugh)—here they were in the eighteenth century—
(laughter.)--well, then, the nineteenth century—and such a ne-
cessary reform as this could not be effected. It was said that no
Person was to he found, either on this or that side of the House,
qualified to enter into such an office. There were persons in
the profession of the law fit to hold any rank or fill any high
station, and in whom the public placed as perfect confidence as
they ever had done in the Lord Chancellor. But if Gentle-
men en the other side of the House were suspicious of the
talents or integrity of those who voted with them, let them
turn an eye to this aide, and they would find persons fully
qualified for such an office.—(Hear, hear! and laughter.)—
It Was plain to the House, that as the Court of Equity was at
Present managed, it was the heaviest affliction upon the subject.
Persons taking this view of the question had been assailed by
slums, but he would answer them facts—Non mews hie sermo.
He was not the only individual wile arraigned this Court and
the conduct of its Judge, who, hs, would assert, ought himself
to have refocused the abuses ss:nich the present Bill was intended
to remedy. Let any irsntletnan read the daily papers, and oh.
:rye the
process of. the Court. Let him mark the day on which
he cause was, set down, and then trace the postponement of hear-
-1,.11' and 'olie perpetual delays of judgment. It was not fair to cast
tAt'tions upon Solicitors, they were not in the House to protect
ess"eraselree• He knew many Solicitors who were men of the most
sssoourable character. He had been informed by one of these
fl_' enitletnen that he had been waiting the decision of a cause which
been set down fifty times for judgment.—(Hear, hear !)
.Another Gentleman had obtained a Judgment in the Chancery
'Court, for 23,5001. The person against whom he had obtained
2118 Judgment, had said to him, " if you do not take less, I will
"PPlai against the decision of the Chancellor, and you will not
only lose the interest of the money. but it will be many years
_net'or e the cause will be decided." The threat was of a nature not
to be resisted, and the party consented to accept of 20,0001.
hie all this, and much more than this, striking him in the face,
nu' Right Hon. and Noble Friend (the Master of the Rolls), in
order to get rid of this curse upon the country, was instructed to
nog in a small tinsel Bill ; and the House was to be told that if
this did not do, Ministers would afterwards grant them something
elle. He hoped the noase would go fairly into the question. He
believed that it would end in a Parliamentary Inquiry, whiCh
Would thoroughly sift the evil.
Mr. DANIEL WHITTLE HARVEY said, he
'should briefly address the House upon this most important and
interesting subject. The practice of the Court of Chancery was
all usurpation of the best principles of the Common Law. His
notion of equity was, that its office and utility were to soften the
asperities of the Common Law, and to supply the defects
of the Statute Law. With reference to the Bill before
the House, he was confident that every Member must feel himself
greatly disappointed. The suggestions made by the Noble and
Learned Lord had no advantage whatever, nor could any good
arise from adopting his measures. The Masters in Chancery re-
ceived by far too high a payment for their services. They re-
ceived for their subordinate duties nearly as much as the Judges of
she Courts of Law—for the average compensation to a Master in
chancery Was 3,500/. a year. He could tell Ministers a way in
which they might have made their measure popular by making
St economical. Why did they not take this compensation to the
M
asters in Chancery out of that inordinate fund which arose from
Each
mode in which commissions of bankruptcy were passed.
•seli commission of bankruptcy received on an average 500/. a
Year, for administering a system of law, whose machinery for de-
fects and bad consequences was decidedly one of the most incom-
petent and injurious which was to be found even in this country.
--(Hear, hear, and cheers.)—lf the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
creel) had a sincere desire to improve the system in all its branches
l
. well as in those to which he had devoted his attention, this state
ofthet Bankrupt Laws, or the mode of administering them, would
at
continue long. But it was well known to Government that
the present system of the Bankrupt Laws was one of the first of
Ys and why was it not amongst the first objects of remedy?—
(Hear,i hear, hear.)—The appointment of Bankrupt Commis-
sioner, was well known to every gentleman connected with Go-
v,,!rornent. The abuse had been of long standing. It was not,
ge many other evils, known to a few, and felt, though severely
t' hY those whom it affected ; it was notorious, and loudly
°omplained of. Young men who had had no experience—
"ho knew nothing of the law in theory, and as little
Practice, but to whom 5001. a-year was an inviting object,
couaidered themselves fit to be Commissioners of Bankrupts.—
tar' hear) ; —or the reverse was the case--old men, upon
Wfra the profession of the law had long since marked the stamp
shein"lnPeteneY, were candidates, and recipients of this office.—
arui ttd heard much about the ability, the talents, the virtues,
otlter
they h excellent qualities of the present Lord Chancellor—
roentiad heard too the delay complained of in the various depart_
over which his Lordshippresided, ascribed to one cause
hhilid to._ the other—in a word, to every body but his Lordship
rnaelf• But he would hiask whether it was possible to expect that s
Lord,h; p would con sent to the slightest alteration which was
he is7rv:ato deprive him of the charms and einolumeuts which
under the Great Seal ?—(Hear, hear.)--Was it at all
IWikheileyhthat the Lord Chancellor would give up the 15/. or the 20/.
that the 1.1,1 e bankruptcy case afforded him? lie firmly believed
from the ,rd Chancellor derived not less than 20,000/. a-year
minsitorial"ankruptcy cases alone.—(a cry of " No,") from the
Re
an 'that
.it.was the
further bennhesP—He contended that such was the fact,; and
great cause of the evils complained of.—
aske_eban‘"oeeinietrhat one of the proposed alterations was, to add a
wouki be
the eto the Court of Exchequer. What, he asked,
Barons of the Extent of this remedy ? They had already four
them look at the eer,
and what duty did they perform ? Let
alone disposed of Court of King's Bench, in which the Chief Jus-
ticethe four Barons of the
cases in the course of the year, while
and the Court itself e Exchequer had scarcely anything to do ;
the profmiousonly afforded situations for the old women of
did not get throu h r, hear ! and a laugh), who, amongst them,
Judge in the Court one-fifth of the business
his intention of Kin ' B performed by a single
to trouble th g a eneh—(Hear, hear.)—lt was not
gest, as there were twelve e House much longer, but he must su -
able Gentleman the hi Ziraaters of whom the Right Honour-
( advisable, that all appeals of f the
theses)as the head, it would
supreme Master ; and that, from
sters should be to the
should be first to the Vice-Chancellor bankanruptcy, the appeals
Lord Chancellor should have an a, ultimately that the
no previous interference in the ea.Pezellant jurisdiction, he having
Mr. GEORGE BANE
that the Lord Chancellor, instead of having
th House
each Bankrupt Commission, had no hire
Thg 15/. ore
0/ upon
his income from that branch of dut: 28..
and that
16,000/. or 20,0001., but from 3,000/. brought him not
to 5,000r°1
utmost—(Hear, hear.)—He denied altogether that th ystar at the
disposition on the part of the Commissioners of Baukr ere was any
Proceedings, with a view to personal advantage% lints to delay
Mr. J. SMITH said that he should wait patiently
for those reforms which were contemplated, and expressedi
conyictionthat great improvements would take place in Bankruptcys

subject.

CAM, the law were more clearly and properly defined on the

Mr. BROUGHAM : I cannot help regretting that

has fallen to my lot to offer my opinions upon this very iMpor-

tant question, without having heard any thing from the other

side of the House, in answer-to the able arguments of the Hon.
Member for Colchester, and to the equally powerful and impres-
sive observations of my Hon. Friend the Member for Durham
(Mr. M. A. Taylor)---obttrvations of such a nature, that, in my
mind, they called for the fullest explanation and answer, if answer
could have been given, from the Honourable Gentlemen who
Have taken the other side of this question.—(Hear, hear, hear !)
My Hon. Friend (Mr. M. A. Taylor) has the honour of having
originated a motion to remedy those abuses ; he has also the credit
of having struggled with unabated zeal, against them from time
to time; and he has now, unlike the projectors of other great
reformations, the satisfaction of witnessing, that although every
thing he has sought to accomplish is. not yet conceded, still that
the principle upon which he 'set out is no longer attempted to be
denied in any quarter.—(Hear !)--Remedy after remedy had
been proposea at various periods for grievances of the most press-
ing nature--scarcely a year had elapsed in which the gross and
crying abuses of the Court of Chancery had not been pointed out
by many Hon. Members, but by none more strenuously than by
my Hon. and Learned Friend (Mr. Sohn Williams), now, unfor-
tunately, no longer a tiember of this House; and yet, notwith-
standing there Various recommendations—as far as regards any-
thing effectual being done—as far as regards any measures of prac-
tical and real relief—as far as regards the application or the pro-
posal of anything like a remedy for a mischief so enormous, that
I should fatigue the House if I were, for the hundredth time,
to give it the names it deserves, or the expressions ex-
torted, whether fitin lawyer or layman, from suitor, or only (as
lam happily myself) spectator of the miseries of suitors--a mis-
chief, the like of which, I verily believe, no other nation on the
face of the civilized globe ever suffered itself to he contaminated
or mocked with—a mockery of what ought to be the pure ad-
ministration of justice. I say, as far as regards a remedy for this
prodigious evil, nothing—less than nothing—worse than nothing
been accomplished. We are then in the beginning of
the subject—we have inquired, but made no progress ; we have
searched but found not; we have gone through the matter, but
have arrived at no result; we have groped iu the dark fcr two
years, and for one year reflected upon our gropings, in order to
ascertain whether any faint glimmering of light has broken in
upon us ; but as to any thing being done, or anything proposed
or brought before the House, for this people, who have been so
long mocked, and will now be insulted if they are still to he
mocked, we have made just no progress at all, and we stand in
twenty-seven where we stood in twenty-four.—(Hear, hear.)—
And who, let me ask, has a right to say he is surprised ? What man
is so forgetful—what man is so thoughtless and unreflecting, as to
ha--e a right to say "I am astonished that nothing has been ac-
complished !" He was forewarned that nothing would be done—
that nothing could be expected to be done by a Commission
so constituted, emanating from such a quarter, and pro-
posed with such views. At the head of the Commission stood the
Learned Judge whose conduct was to be the subject of inquiry,
and from whom the proposal of the Commission emanated. (Hear,
hear.) The principle of the examination was neither more nor
less than this—is the delay of which all men complain, which
acts upon the suitors as a denial of justice ; which makes this
public Court of Justice a public nuisance—the fault of the system,
or of the individual who placed himself at the head of his own
Board to inquire into his own conduct? (Hear, hear.) We are
told, indeed, that his Lordship did not attend--that be did not
take the Chair. Than who did take it? Was it the Vice-Chan-

cellor, or the then Master of the Rolls, promoted by the Lord
Chancellor, from the ranks of the profession, to assist him, and to
snake up for his deficiencies, in one of the many Courts created
for the purpose of removing from the shoulders of one man a
burden which no one man was capable of sustaining? If the
Noble Lord did not attend, he was ably and amply represented, and
his interests duly guarded ; for who were the other Members of
the Commission? Masters in Chancery and Commissioners of
Bankrupts were, doubtless, in regular and patient attendance,
struggling with each other for the sweets of office and the favours
of the Noble Lord ; and to these are to be added my Honourable
and Learned Friend (Dr. Lushington), and the late Member for
Lincoln (Mr. R. P. Smith). What could two men, however
impartial, however earnest, accomplish in such a melancholy mi-
nority ? If they had been two angels, in this den w;th Chancery
retainers and Chancery expectants—with Judges, Master, and
Bankrupt Commissioners, most of them hungering and thirsting
for promotion, and incited by the recent advancement of one who
so little expected it, it would have been nothing less than a mi-
racle if they had been able to resist the tide, into the very midst
of which they were plunged. We all know how these matters are
conducted. The Lord Chancellor professes himself before the
Commissioners a very ill-used man, " more sinned against than
sinning ;" he beats his breast, and tears his reverend hair—he
sheds salt tears, and talks of his God and his conscience.—(Hear,
and laughter.)—He declares himself distressed at the poverty of
his family, with only a million and a half, plus the inheritance of
his good name.—(Hear, and laughter.)---And then comes the di-
vision—the counting of noses ; and the result before such a tri-
bunal may be guessed without much danger of mistake. The
Lord Chancellor, indeed, seldom attends, and for his purpose, per-
haps, the seldomer the better, for the greater the influence of his
presence when he does make his appearance ; it was not making
himself cheap ; it was not coming forward on all paltry occasions,
as if training his colleagues in the Commission to vote in his fa-
vour. He was well aware that he was in good and safe hands,
for the purpose of stifling inquiry and producing delay. He
managed the whole affair with the most enviable dexterity ; he
met the supposed inquiry with all the charms of the most en-
tire good humour—with all the fascinations of his venerable
age, and with that profound learning and high talent which are
blended with the history of the law beyond the memory of any
of the individuals upon whose minds he was to operate.. With
all these claims to respect and veneration, and laying aside that
authority he had a right to assume, and the very deposition of
which was so well calculated to captivate and mislead, he en-
tered the assembly and prevailed almost at the instant' of his
arrival. The inquiry dwindled as to its objects and extent, was
mitigated in its form and manner, paralysed in its power, and
neutralised in its results.—(Hear, hear, hear !) I per-
ceive a smile on the countenances of the Right Honourable
Gentlemen on the other side. They naturally think that it
would be ridiculous for me to conjure up all this machinery,
in order to move Masters in Chancery, since they must natu-
rally feel the strongest attachment both to the man and the
system ; but he had also to produce an effect upon my Hon.
and Learned Friend, and upon the Hon. Member for Lincoln.
The rest of the Commission voted one way, thought one way, and
sawwith one pair of eyes, and those were the eyes of John Lord
E
on--(Cheers.)—On such a subject it was just as inevitable
that they should see with his eyes, as that John Lord Eldon should
see with his own. I wish, therefore, to call the attention of the
House to the situation in which we now find ourselves. Out of
the whole Inquiry has arisen a mass of matter,
of which it has
° th
been truly said that nine-tenths relate to the mere practice and
details of the Court of Chancery, a reform in which
might have
been adopted and carried into effect by the orders of his Lordship
alone. The remaining tenth was, perhaps, an improvement,
required an Act of Parliament. It relates to the
taking
awayappeals from the Master's office, and altering the jurisdictionof
in matters of bankruptcy. But (says my Right Honourable
and Learned Friend, if he will still allow me to call him
so after his advancement), the matters of detail are so con-
nected with the rest that they ought both to be included in
a statute. I wish he had given us a specimen of the kind, for
his speech, able as it was, and abounding in illustrations and
examples relative to the jurisdiction of a Court of Equity, and the
progress of a suit, and its conclusion (of which, by the bye, we
never hear but in speeches), contained no specimen of the combi-
nation of the matter of detail with the matter of more general
importance. The suggestion now is, that we shall do all by bill,
and give the Chancellor a dispensing or suspending power. is
that in consistency with my Hon. Friend's argument? The
Chancellor is vindicated on the ground that he has so many occu-
pations, that he could not turn his attentions to these reforms;
but surely he must have had plenty of time to issue a short order,
which should merely suspend all the existing forms, on the ground
that he did not approve them. The Chancellor, however, is to be
allowed, at his discretion, to suspend all the orders Parliament
may enact. Is this, I would ask the House a fit mode of legis-
lating ? The two branches of the Legislature adopt a measure,
after much deliberation, and this measure receives the sanction of
•the other Sovereign, besides the Lord Chancellor in his sovereignty,
of which we have heard for the first time to night. The three
estates of the realm having thus determined upon the
reform of the equity jurisdiction, one would supoose, that
it only remained to be carried into execution. But no ; we
dare not do it. There is a power behind the Throne greater
than the Throne and the two Houses of Parliament. We must
first secure the concurrence of Lord Eldon ; we must mitigate
his wrath ; and we must yndd to him, as the Commissioners did
before us, ere we can venture to legislate without leaving him a
controlling power—(Hear, hear!)—Permit me to say, that my
Right Hon. and Learned Friend has here taken a leaf out of the
book of the Commissioners, when he talks of the Sovereignty of
the Great Seal, and an accroachment, as lawyers term it, by the
188 propositions of the Report. He gives the Chancellor a power
which the Sovereign does not enjoy.—to dispense with the execution

of an Act of Parliament. Ana how (Ines he vindicate this proposi-
tion ? By a reference to a case, which, when looked into, if not dia-
metrically opposite, has no reference whatever to the point he wishes
to establish. The Statute of the 12th Geo. I. creates the office of
Accountant-General of the Court of Chancery. The Lord Chan-
cellor had made certain orders relating to most immaterial matters,
namely, the mode of accounting with the Master, keeping the
bonds of the suitors, and directing that the Master, with the
six Clerks, should go to the Bank and open the chest, and with
his finger and thumb take out certain securities there deposited,
on givinc, a written receipt. These were most trifling regula-
tions of detail, but Parliament thought fit to legislate upon
them ; and it is enacted that this order may be dispensed with
by leave of the Lard Chancellor. The two cases are not to be
compared, for the proposition now before the House relates to
the most important points in the constitution of the Court of
Chancery. If it do not, my argument falls to the ground, and
my Right Hon. and Learned Friend triumphs in his precedent of
the 12th Geo. I. But we have not yet got to the end of the dif-
ficulties in which we are involved. It is a painful, or at anv
rate it is a Most unpleasant duty, to make any observations which
may by possibility be construed into personality, even towards a
great public officer. But my belief is, and that opinion I share with
many honest men who have gone before me—with some of the
ablest men who live—with the profoundest lawyers in the Court of
Chancery, and with the most experienced practitioners in our other
Courts, who have studied, examined, and watched, the judi-
cial conduct of the high individual to whom I alit:Ale; that it
is the man, the individual Judge, John Lord Eldon, more than
the system, that is to blame with reference to all these evils.—
(Much cheering.)—On former occasions, I have given my rea-
sons for this opinion, and I have admitted, as I do admit, that it
arises, in some degree, from laudable scrupulousness. It pro-
. ....

ceeds from a slowness and unwillingness to pronounce an opi-
nion, long after that opinion had been in fact formed, and which
he does not adopt slowly or hesitatingly, for no man has a better
right, from the qualifications I have enumerated, to arrive at an
early decision. He also evinces a perseverance in that opinion
which might be called pertinacity in any man less acute, less ex-
perienced, less learned, or less accomplished in all departments of
his profession. Therefore I say that no man is better entitled
quickly to form and firmly to hold his opinions upon cases brought
before him ; but he has an unaccountable, an unfortunate,
and almost a morbid infirmity, which prevents him from mak-
ing up his mind, and pronounaing a judgment (won an opinion
he has formed.---(Cheers)—l am told that the Chancellor is
overwhelmed with business—that he has snore occupations than

any one man can get through—that he is laden with snore duties
than, peradventure, any two men can discharge—and that it is
no wonder, therefore, that he leaves some of them undone. I agree
with my Right Hon. and Learned Friend in the explanation he has
given of some of the delays, which arise from the attorneys in
Chancery having too much business- I only marvel that he does
not apply this reasoning to the head of the Court. If a man had too
much to do, he of course neglects all those matters which need not
be performed by a particular hour. That which applies to an Attor-
ney will “pply to a Chancellor ; for the lowest practitioners will
be governed by the same circumstances as the head of the profes-
sion. The Keeper of the Great Seal and the Speaker of the House
of Lords mem; :,elides, have some business of his own—he has
ae..-i:lnulated a large revenue which he must manage, and he has
besides a vast patronage, legal and clerical, to be dispersed amongst
his adherents. His Parliamentary duties are laborious, not merely
as presiding over one branch of the Legislature, but as the most
effective and able debater ox the side of that Government of which
he forms so distinguished a Member. He has, besides, high
functions as the confidential and highly influential (if I may
use the expression) adviser of the Crown. He is much about
the person of the Sovereign, much with the Members of the
Cabinet, and he is in constant intercourse with persons of dis-
tinction at Court and in Parliament. With all these multifarious
employments, unless you can find a man not only above the rank
of a Solicitor, but even far above the qualifications allotted to
frail humanity, some of them must be neglected and postponed.
What I have here stated is in perfect accordance with the explana-
tion of my Right Hon. and Learned Friend, who has lately been
advanced to preside over a Court of which he will be one of the
greatest ornaments that ever entered it. When he has obtained
more experience, he will find that some person or other has mis-
instructed him in another part of his speech, where he asserted
that there has been no arrear and no accumulation since the ap-
pointinent of Lord Gifford as the Vice. Chancellor. He will permit
me to inform him that the grossest delusion has been practised
upon him in this respect. I need only refer to a case printed under
the authority of a learned and excellent person who was Counsel in it.
I allude to ex-parte M‘Naughton, which was commenced in 1820 ;

and as one fact is worth twenty assertions, I will mention one or two
of its leading features. It was an appeal from that admirably con-
stituted body—given up on all hands—the Commissioners of
Bankrupts. It was a petition against the appointment of As-
signees by five creditors, whose debts amounted to 427/. The
debts of the whole body of creditors were about 20,0001. The
petition was brought on ; it was heard over and over again be-
fore the Vice-Chancellor, and before the Chancellor on appeal, and
the case ran the gauntlet of hearings, re-hearings, reports and ex-
ceptions, and all the train of interminable litigation. The case
commenced six or seven years ago, and there it is at this moment,
at the head of a list which I read this morning, in the publication
of my friend Mr. Montague. The estimated expences of this pro-
ceeding are 5,0001.—a sufficient proof, I should imagine, of the
operose nature of Chancery litigation. My Right Hon. and Learned
Friend has drawn a very agreeable picture of a Chancery suit, and
by means of his bright and fairy colouring, has not only rendered
it almost fascinating, but has shewn that it is as innocent as a suck-
ing babe. lam afraid, after I have endeavoured to daub it, the
bantling would scarcely be recognised ; but when we see that
5,000/. have been expended upon debts amounting to only 427/.,
it is quite enough, without any effort on my part, to render a
proceeding in Chancery more disgusting. I may add, that the
briefs of my excellent Friend in the course of the suit, being
weighed in the scale, not of law and justice, but of tallow chand-
lery, amounted to 251bs. ; but whether they were weighed by
troy or avoirdupois, I proess myself unable to determinine.—
(Cheers and laughter.)—Therefore it is, that men cease not to
cry out against the jurisdiction of this Court ; therefore it is that
they will not hold their peace ; that they will not be put off with
palliatives, but that they insist upon a speedy and adequate reme-
dy for this portentous evil.—Sir Samuel Romilly, many years
ago, contended that the arrear in Chancery arose from the man-
ner in which business was done ; and I have his authority, if not
that of the Vic:-Chancellor also, for accusing not merely the sys-
tem, but the man by whom that system is administered.—(Cheers.)
The evils of the Court of Chancery were at that time such, upon
the confession of the Chancellor's best friends, that some remedy
was on all hands allowed to be necessary. What was the remedy
proposed? Nothing less than the creation of a new Court of
Chancery.—(Hear, hear.)—For that purpose a Bill was intro-
duced, which passed the House of Lords without objection ; but in
this House it was ably and brilliantly opposed by an Hon. and
Learned Friend of mine (Sir J. Mackintosh), who is now, and
has generally of late, I regret to say, been absent from illness. It
was opposed, too, by the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Canning)
now Secretary for Foreign Affairs; and, with a weight of learn-
ing and experience, by the very Learned and Right Hon. Gentle-
man (Sir J. Leach), who is now himself the Vice-Chancellor.—
The Lord Chancellor has always been complaining of the vast
mass of business he has to toil through. Yet Lord Thurlow and
all his predecessors were competent to bear this burden. But Lord
Eldon must, for his relief, be invested with the power to create a
new Court of Chancery, which has already nearly doubled the
business.—(Hear, hear.)—The arrear has gone on, year
by year, increasing. There was an arrear when the
first Vice-Chancellor was appointed. Soon there was a
greater arrear—and I predict that it will increase.—
My Hon. and Learned Friend (the Master of the Rolls) has al-
luded to a pamphlet, if indeed I may so call it--(a laugh)—
which has recently been published on this subject by the Senior
Master of the High Court of Chancery, who comes forward with
all the titles that deck him, and with all the authority that backs
him, not to send forth a pamphlet, but to promulgate a manifesto
against all change in the practice of his jurisdiction. These
sentiments, as proceeding from the " Senior Master," might
well have been understood to have been those of all the Mas-
ters, if the Master of the Rolls, the first of those Masters, had
not this evening so handsomely disowned them. By the way I
may remark, that in doing so, he applied a salve to the wound be
inflicted, by saying that there was a great deal of wit and elo-
quence in this pamphlet. It may be se ; but if there be any wit
in it, it has certainly escaped me, though I freely admit, that for
aught I know, there is what may pass for such in the Master's
office.—(Laughter.)—Of this document, coming from so high
a quarter, I have, as the Speaker sometimes does with documents
from other high quarters, obtained a copy to avoid mistakes—.
oa
tdy afew passages from it. The
of
f
the Great Seal maintained
t(iitlsueghofteirt)—ais, •nd Irhweillsonvoevreireg
against the 188 Propositions of the Chancery Commission."—
The effect of the 174th proposition, the Senior Master contends,
would he not only to dispossess the Lord High Chancellor of his
authority, but, coupled with the eight following propositions, to
despoil the Great Seal of its Sovereignty—(a laugh)—and what,
he adds, would be worse, to despoil the suitors of its protection—
(Continued laughter.)—And then comes the passage in which I
suppose my Hon. and Learned Friend found the author's wit.
" PROSPERO—You'd be a King of the Island, sirrah ?
STEPHANO—I should have been a sore one then."
But the writer adds, that he alludes to no particular Vice-Chan-

cellor ; nor, I might say, do T to any particular Chancellor.—
(Cheers.)—What he says, however, is quite unfair. Every man
of common candour, acquainted with the facts, must know that
this is a groundless charge against the Vice-Chancellor. If the
right of appeal was direct from him to the House of Lords, we
should ace an altered state of things. Though, unquestionably,
the present condition of the appellate jurisdiction is inexpressibly
absurd. The merits of the case can signify nothing to the three
Lords who hear one-half of it, nor to the other three tords who
hear the other half of it, nor to the three who sit while judgment
is given by a man who is not a Lord; and thus is ridicule
brought on the highest assembly in the land, in order to save
Lord Eldon, where he is as deficient as in the Court of Chancery.
In another part of his pamphlet, the writer observes insidiously,
" The number of Appeals from the Lord Chancellor to the
House of Lords is very, very few, while those from the Vice-
Chancellor to the Lord Chancellor is very, very many." This,
I take it, is the eloquence which my Honourable and Learned
Friend found, as the other was the wit.—(Laughter.)—" The
inference," the Senior Master goes oil, " is so obvious, that I
cannot bear the pain of having it drawn more strongly." But,
Senior Master, you shall bear the pain of having it drawn more
strongly. The meaning of the passage is this :—" I will praise
the Lord Chancellor, who made me a Master in Chancery,
and I will do so at the expence of the Vice-Chancellor, who does
not enjoy the same influence at Court ;" and that he has it not I
lament, from the bottom of my heart, for he deserves every ho-
nour for the struggle he has so gallantly maintained, if he had no
title to honour better founded before.—(Cheers.)—" Him," how-
ever, in effect, says this Senior Master, " I will not praise. He
has no favours to dispense. He has neither power nor perquisites
to give to those of our cloth who will laud him. But the Chan-
cellor I will praise. I will say the appeals are many from the
Vice-Chancellor to the Chancellor, because of the unfitness of the
Vice-Chancellor ; and that they are few from the Chancellor to
the House of Lords, because of the eminent fitness of the Chan-
cellor."—(Cheers.)—What, did it never strike this grave autho-
rity, that the reason why the appeals were few to the House of
Lords was, that an appeal from the Lord Chancellor in the Court
of Chancery, to the Lord Chancellor in the House of Lords, was
an appeal from himself to himself? (Hear !) The man is a fool who
hopes for any result from this protracted litigation, except the
loss of additional time and money. Did it never strike this grave
authority, that some of the judicial habits of the Chancellor
tend directly to the multiplication of business? A very good ex-
planation of the many appeals from the Vice-Chancellor may be
given without imputing them to any defects or infit mities on his
part. What, I ask, should be thought of a Judge, who never
hears the decree of another Judge read before him without carping
at it? Ido not believe the Lord Chancellor does so from invidi-

ous motives. The practice results from his subtlety, his ingenuity,
his extreme refinement of mind, which lead him always to look
out for what has rot struck other men before. I appeal to every
lawyer versed in Equity, whether, since the commencement of
Lord Eldon's Chancellorship, so many doubts have not been ex-
pressed on every appeal heard before him, that when he does not
reverse the decrees, he shakes them so that other suitors are ad-
vised, as the phrase is, to take " the chance of the tables," in ex-
pectation that some of the difficulties may be made available to
themselves. (Cheers.) That is one reason why appeals are so
frequent from the Vice-Chancellor to the Chancellor. It forms
also, very often, a ground for re-hearing his own judgments?
(Cheers.) No man has had so mush done for him as the
Lord Chancellor. In the House of Lords a Deputy Speaker

(Lord Gifford) was made to assist him, who certainly dispatched
the Scotch Appeals with great success, and gave general satisfac-
tion to the practitioners and suitors. That Noble and Learned
Lord (Gifford) sat from day to day, six hours each day, and
during every one of those hours his mind was on the stretch, at-
tending carefully to what passed before him, and making himself
master of the case. He was then prepared to give judgment
without any interval, without taking home the papers—(A laugh)
or keeping the parties in anxiety, to the great increase of their
costs, till he had forgotten the arguments altogether, or perchance
lost the papers --(Renewed laughter.) That was the way in
which Lord Gifford administered justice in the House of Lords.
I will not follow the example of the " Senior Master of the High
Court of Chancery." I will not state the contrast unfairly and in-
sidiously. But I will state clearly and expressly, that the con-
duct of Lord Gifford, in the House of Lords, was a great and
striking contrast to that which Lord Eldon follows both in the
House of Lords and the Court of Chancery. The same may also
be said most justly of the Vice-Chancellor. Nothing keeps him
from his court except severe illness, when he is actually con-
fined to a sick bed. Six days in the week, (luring six hours
each day, he sits patiently attentive to his duties. He suffers
nothing. positively nothing, to interfere with them. He
does not waste an hour at the beginning, and an hour and a half
at the end of the day—his mind is on the stretch the whole time.
He decides more causes, and gets through a greater mass of busi-
ness, than any .of the Equity Judges. In the diligent and able
performance of his duty, he resembles those great Judges of past
times, who were the ornament of their own day, and the envy as
well as the regret and admiration of ours.—(Loud cheers. )—But
the Chancellor still needs help—(a laugh).—My Hon. and
Learned Friend (the Master of the Rolls) has invited us on this
side of the House, to give him suggestions for the improvement of
the Court of Chancery, from our own experience of that Court and
others. I have a suggestion to offer with regard to making a
Deputy Speaker, who may not be a Member of the House of
Lords. This is one of the most unwise steps that can be taken.
What has been the course of this practice? The Lord Chief
Baron was first taken from the Exchequer. In ISI9 he fell ill,
and the Lord Chief Justice of the King's Bench was planted as
his successor, under a Royal Commission. Still he was not a
Member of the House. He could not open his lips on the cases
argued before him. All he could do was to put the question.—
Surely, then, I am justified, without transgressing the bounds of pro-
priety, in stigmatising this practice as anomalous and absurd (cheers).
While on this part of the question, I would relate a fact that oc-
curred while Lord Chief Justice 'Abbott was sitting in that capa-
city in the House of Lords. A case was one day heard before the
Chief Justice, and appointed for further hearing on a day on which
Lord Eldon, who had in the mean time recovered, came down to
the House. The case was postponed till another day, when the
Chief Justice heard the residue of it. The House then adjourned
during pleasure, and other cases were heard by Lord Eldon.—
The Chief Justice went away to his own Court, and on another
day came again to the House of Lords, where he was present while
judgment was given in this case, which he alone had heard. Do
I say that judgment was given by the Lord Chancellor without
knowing any thing of the case? No. I am perfectly well aware
what was done. The Lord Chief Justice had communicated
to some one, what should be done. But is it not a mockery on
the sacred forms and attributes of justice, that in this manner
we should make a puppet of the highest Judge in the kingdom,
the next in rank to the Chancellor himself, the Lord Chief
Justice of all England.—(Cheers.)—But now the Lords are bal-
loted for to insure their attendance. Two of them come daily.
Two on one day hear one part of the case, on the next two others
hear the remainder ; and the case thus proceeds day by day, be-
fore a different set of Lords every day, until the Deputy Speaker,
who, not being a Member of the House, cannot, in fact, speak at
all—(A laugh)—whispers the judgment to be passed by those who
perhaps have not heard one word of the argument. Ido trust the
administration of justice will be spared this foul blot.—(Cheers.)
is-I am one of those who think, that Lord Eldon is of the number
of those Sovereigns who " bear no rival near the throne."—
(Hear, hear, hear.)--He has lived to reap the fruits of that prin-
ciple, on which he has so long acted, of not promoting men of
his own profession, lest they_ should become his rivals. He is
reaping the fruits of this principle in these his latter days. He
finds now, that through fear of raising competitors, he is left with-
out able assistants. I will ask why the Lord Chief Justice
has not been elevated to the Peerage? If I am told it
has been offered to him, and he has refused it, my question
is answered. I well remember when my friend, the late
Member for Bramber (Mr. Wilberforce), remarking to 'me,
when Lord Gifford was made a Peer, that . that was .an ar-
rangement which would suit the convenience of Lord Eldon,
as from the new Peer he could fear no rivalry. My respected
friend observed, that he did not think it !Vat .to see the Lord
Chief Justice of all England waiting with a coronet in view,
,
while an inferior Judge had one given to himb atondcea.
k
again, why has the Lord Chief Justice not. see
create
Chief Justice) had been elevated to the state to which his talents
pHeer
ehasneverye,
can rightcnn f
rwhich i
m_
at ironne,d Ipe aerrna
tahe deer?Lordand the regard of the profession for him entitled him, Lord Eldon
swnoru
sclo7.c, sy haveassistance b ewe nn
us
ludr ro
haveund
beene d
eeer t
endi e n
to,
aaindd
hoitmh e
in
m ea-
exe-
cuting his judicial functions. I have now concluded the observa-
tions I intended to make on these propositions. I have dischar-
ged my duty, and a painful one it has been.—(Hear !)—I need
not add, for I have often said it before—but I will repeat it, in
case any Member should be present who has not heard. me, and
for the vindication of the opinion to. which I have given expres-
sion—that it has been painful to me on this account, that what-
ever public differences of opinion I may have had, or have now,
with that Noble and Learned Lord (the Lord Chancellor), I agree
with all those who have mentioned his name in this House or
elsewhere, that, holding a high situation, as he does, not only
by his claims as a lawyer and man of talent and practical wisdom,
I admit freely , and cordially, that of all the Judges before whom
I have practised (and I have practised much),
he is, out of all
comparison, and beyond all doubt, by much the most agreeable

to the practitioner, by the amenity of his manners and the in-
tuitive quickness of his mind ; though, if I must add the infirmity
under which he labours, he is certainly the slowest in deci-
sion. I have delivered my sentiments as a public adversary; hut
in private life I have, and can have, no hatred against him. The
Hon. and Learned Gentleman sat down amidst loud cheering.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said, his Hon.
and Learned Friend (Mr. Brougham) had admitted that the
Lord Chancellor had not only done all he could in the discharge of
his multifarious duties, but that he had done more than it could
be expected human faculties would accomplish. But without tra-
velling into all the catraneous arguments of his Hon. and Learned
Friend opposite, he begged to recall to the attention of the House,
that the question before them was, whether the Resolutions recom-
mended by the Commissioners appointed to inquire into the prac-
tice of the Court of Chancery should be embodied into that law
to which his Learned Friend had that night called their atten.
tion. If the Commissioners had been seduced by the suavity of
Lord Eldon, as his Honourable and Learned Friend had stated, so
as to make the Commissioners think as he thought, and their Re-
solutions to be nothing more than the Resolutions of Lord Eldon
himself, they weft only in the same situation as his Honourable
and (.earned Friend, who had been so seduced by the amenity of
the Noble and Learned Lord, that he could not make up his
mind as to his character, and balanced his censure by his praise.
He had listened stilfh great pleasure, as he always did to the
speeches of his Hon. and Learned Friend, to his ingenious, elo-
quent, and facetious speech ; but he must say he had departed
from the only question before the House. He for one regretted
the absence of the Member for Ilchester ; but he thought he had
left nobody behind to supply his n lace in showing in what respect
the Report which his Hon. Friendj
regulations were
wcia,Liehledi,:smwoocelkderoyowtieaes. deficient.
One One objection had been started,
Bill to be introduced by his Right Hon. Friers.;
to be enacted for the practice of the Court of Cblits.'erY ; but the
Judge presiding over that Court was to have the power ..!'f alt,er-
ing these regulations. If these regulations were settled ant: '-
termined by the Legislature, he should oppose, as strongly as an?
Member, any attempt, on the part of any Judge, to alter them.
But the House would remember that this was an experiment ?
and therefore it was that the Head of the Court was allowed to
snake any modifications in them he might find necessary. In
this he only exercised a power which the Chief of every Court
was allowed to exercise. His Hon. and Learned Friend had also
gone out of his way to attack the mode of conducting the Appel-
late Jurisdiction of the House of Lords, and the influence of the
Lord Chancellor had been supposed to exercise over the Creation
of Peeps ; but he wished to bring back the Roust to the single
question before them, which was, whether the Bill, founded oil
the Resolutions of the Commissioners appointed to Intrite into
the Practices of the Court of Chancery, should be introdued of.
not, and with that the arguments used by his Hon. and Leariitt
Friend had nothing to do. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman
sat d wn by apologising for troubling the House at that late boar
on such a dry subject.
Mr. Secretary PEEL hoped, though the hour was
late, and the House in a very exhausted state, that they would not
think he was preferring, after the speech of the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman opposite, an unreasonable claim to their attention and
indulgenee, by detaining them by a few brief observations. There
was no man, he was ready to admit, more incapable tilts he wed
of entering into any discussion of the merits of the 158 resArtiense
though, if he had leisure, he should have paid them great ati**"
tion. But he would fairly own that his other avocations had oe-e.
copied him so much, that he had not had sufficient time to give•
them that consideration which they deserved. Before be re-
ferred to the speech of the Honourable and Learned Gentleman,
there was one point on which he wished to make one
or two remarks. There was one subject which, whether a man
were a Chancery Lawyer or not, and whether he had studied the
Report or not, he would be able to form an opinion ; he alluded to
the state of our law relative to the transfer of real property, and the
difficulty there was in making out a good title. There was 110
manwho had purchased or sold real property, who had not been
made aware of the numberless modes which might be, and some..
times were had recourse to, to defeat a just contract; and thus, wise.
ther or not, some means might not be adopted to put an end to such
proceedings, to facilitate establishing titles to landed property, and
to give its owner a more ample security, became an object well
worthy of attention. There was one passage of the Report, for be
had read that, though he had not had time to examine the whole
of the Resolutions, in which he heartily concurred. The Commis-
sioners state, " that no person can have had much experience in
Courts of Equity, without feeling that many suits owe their mi•
gin to, and many are greatly protracted by, questions arising front
the niceties and subtleties of the law and practice of conveyancing.
Any alteration in this system must be made with the greatest
caution ; but as connected with the object of saving time and ex-
pence to suitors in the Court of Chancery, we venture to submit
to your Majesty's consideration, whether it might not be proper to
commit to competent persons the task of examining this part of
our law, with a view of determining if any improvement may be
safely made in it, which might lessen the expence and narrow
the field of litigation respecting the transfer of real property."--
In this view he fully concurred, but he felt there were great diffi-
culties connected with the subject, and that it was one which
ought to be approached with the greatest caution. He did not
exactly see why he should be applied to on this subject • perhaps
it was on account of his situation, and because he had made
the improvement of another branch of our law the object of his
study, but he had received offers from men of talents to contri-
bute their assistance towards improving this part of our law.; and
only a feiv days ago he bad received an offer of services from a
gentleman of such great talents—an offer so tempting that he did
not wholly despair of being shortly able to devolve on a few per-
sons—and he thought a few would be better than many—he did
not despair, he said, of being shortly able to devolve on a few dis-
tinguished persons the task of forming a Commission, meriting the
confidence of the House and the Country, which should consider
the best means of carrying into execution the recommendation of
the Report to lessen the expence and narrow the field of litigation
respecting the transfer of real property.—(Hear, hear.)—lf the
inquiry were to devolve on such men, he was sure the conduct of
the Commission would merit the approbation of the Public.—
(Hear, hear.)—After these observations he would proceed to
notice the speech of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. He could
assure him, that in speaking of the Lord Chancellor, he was under
no great personal obligation to him ; he had never received from
him any personal favour ; and if he then rose to repel what ha
thought unjust accusations, he could assure that Hon. and Learned
Gentleman and the House, that he did it only from that respect
which he bore him as a colleague, and from that personal friend-
ship which the House would not undervalue.—(Hear,
He hoped the House would bear in mind that the very.severe.st-
tack which had been made by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
on the Lord Chancellor had been made in his absence.
Mr. BROUGHAM, interrupting the Right Hon.
Secretary, appeared to make light of this remark,
and said he
spoke of him as he had a right to do as a Minister of the Crown.
Mr. Secretary PEEL said, in continuation, he did
not deny the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's right to make the
attack, he only wished to remind the House that it had re
made on the Lord Chancellor in his absence,
entertained for him feelings of respect, to vindicatelie been expected
attack, which he had a right to say could n t
Zile "wished the lion.
on such a motion._( Hear, hear !)
had no right to come, and which' made it thiendallahltlvarfeoseomwheno
r of Sehestors, and
rec_ollect, that in his
ho had no means of
had called on the House not to attack men
w
present
to vindicate
the accusations, and who were not
replyingertoeerere.
Though he was sensible that there was a great
n tHnoOots
House
)
Member for
efobradDbueerheavmersyvhreoehdadee cheered, 'chats onreuledte
theirdifference ch
between these Solicitors and a Minister of the Crown,
aslasiduchbeafosrteatet:
would first that he he
He
stood up to defend him..
consistent with fairness to attempt to throw discredit
was not
yet the absence of the Lord Chancellor was his reason why
on the Minister of the Crown for his private conduct. Ha
would admit the right to call into question his mode of discharging
his public duty ; but he appealed to the good taste of the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman, and to the House, if it were proper to go
into an examination of his private character. The Hon. Member
for Colchester had stated that the Lord Chancellor's emoluments
he contradicted ? The amount of time income of the Lord Chan-
cellor
atnounhteadd,too.2oa,OfoOrOml.elp. eorcyceasairo;n,anbdeewn
and, out of that income, he bad to pay Subordinate Offi
sala-
ries, amounting to 2,5001. per year. He did not then ceraconi
the exact amount of the Chancellor's income, as he had rek.---km---
at the subject lately, but he believed it was less than not
-----
year, and about 13,5001. When it wars considered 14,000/. per
that this was the
chief prize in the lottery of a very uncertain
no year to
man would consider 18,500/. per profession, he thought
insinuated that the Lord o large a salary. • The
Hon. and Learned Gentleman had illsu
Chan-
cellor had used time influence conferred
prevent some of the Judges gain; on him by his situation, to
'
lieved that the Hon. and Learned
dromoted to the Peerage. He be-
would not enter into the eireu Gentleman was musinffirmed- Me
Instances which induced hii Majesty to
confer a Peerage, but he would
the Court of King'sßench say, as to the present Chief Justiceof
,who had at all times discharged his duty in
a manner that would do honour to the Judges of the highest-characters
who had ever filled his
high office, he would say, that the Lord
Chancellor bad never thrown th h t obstacle in the way of
a
his promotion to the Pee esr tes
in him either a competitor goer, aanrdiveaoluld have no
But
tthe :Lord Chan or
had, according to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, used his
,

• ,

•

.

fluence to raise an Equity Judge to the Peerage, in whom h
might have expected a rival, and heitstd his influence to keep bad
the Chief Justice, who, from being in another branch of the law
could never have come into collision with him. Nor could he fai
to remark the conduct of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, i:
holding up a Judge to approbation, for his undivided attention t,
business, when his object was to disparage the Lord Chancellor •
when, at other times, that Learned Judge was the object of the
Learned Gentleman's attacks. But it served his purpose now t,
praise him at the expence of the Chancellor. It was but justice is
him to pay a tribute to the memory of Lord Gifford; but if there
were any judge mo-c capable than another of exciting jealousy
such as the Learned Judge imputed to the Lord Chancellor, i!
was Lord Gifford, but who had excited no such feeling as that
which he (the Hon. Gent.) had attributed to the Chancellor, and
which be (Mr. Peel) believed never had influenced his conduct.
The Learned Gentleman had been exceedingly severe on those
who had advocated the appointment cf the Commission, and had
said, that when the Commission was proposed he had observed a
smile on the faces of the Ministers, as if they intended by the Com-
mission to defeat some hostile purpose of the Opposition. He denied
that the smile, if smile there was, could justify such an inference.
It was impossible for him, or for any other man, to deny that
the system of the Court of Chancery presented great impediments
to the administration of justice, and entailed a grievous expense
upon the suitors. He had proposed tht Commission with a full
sense of those evils, and from a co-aviction that a Commission so
constituted could devise the riltr:c effectual means of relief; but if
he had stood alone ;n that House, and not a single Member could
have been found to ao:eport him, he never would have consented
to the appointors__ tof a criminatoty Commission, moved for by
the Hon. 3.r
ember for Lincoln in a speech in which that crimina-
thrY C:lanmission was advocated, and whirls speech was seconded
4.-.. At supported afterwards by many other members of the same
-,side of She loose. In that speeds the Honourable Member said,
"it is ziat the system, but the man. I mean not to criminate the
system, but the man, and it is into This conduct that I
call for an enquiry." He thanked God that they did not lis-
ten to that appeal. He thanked God that they withstood the
attempt to humiliate the Lord Chancellor. The Hon. Member
for Colchester (Mr. Harvey), in that night's debate, admitted
that he had done more than any of his predecessor., and that
she defects of the system ought not to be attributed to him. That
Hon. Member, in a speech which displayed great knowledge of the
subject, and which was calculated to make a considerable impres-
sion upon the House, admitted that the defects belonged to the
system, and not to the man—(Hear, hear.)---And after admit-
ting that he had done more than all his predecessors, concluded a
panegyric—no more than just—by these emphatic words—" that
his decisions, although slow, were always accompanied by a secu-
rity which amply compensated for the delay—( Hear, hear)."—He
was followed by a gentleman totally unconnected with the profes-
sion of the law, holding a high rank in that House, and among
the commercial men of the country—the Honourable Member for
Midhursa (Mr. John Smith), and he admitted, that no man in
high situation had ever had so much to do as the Lord Chancellor.
—He again was followed by the Honourable and Learned Mem-
ber (Mr. Bron;;eam) ; and in what terms did he speak ? He
aradmitted, ;:nat in all his experience before all the Judges it had
'ever Iseeii his fortune to appear, he had never pleaded before
-sisfone with so much satisfaction as before the Lord Chancellor;
and he even went on to say, that if he had a fault, it arose from
4 sincere desire to administer the most impartial justice.—(Hear,
hear !)--He had thus quoted, he would not say from the mouths
of his enemies--for enemies he hoped they were not—but from
the mouths of his political opponents, testimonies to the character
of the Lord Chancellor as high as any man could be ambitious of
obtaining. He would not attempt to weaken their effect by any
thing which he could say ; and he would only, therefore, add,
that if the description thus given be a true one—and it came
from the mouths of those who were not to be supposed de-
tirous to over-rate his merits—then he would say that he
bad a great consolation in the reflection that he had raised
hs voice against the appointment of a Commission, which
avowed its object to be not to inquire into the system,
but to criminate the man.—(Hear, hear, hear !)—He would
now say a few words with regard to the charges brought
against himself. It was perfectly true that he had recom-
mended the appointment of the members of the Commission, and
he had done so because he thought they would honestly execute
the task assigned to them, and because he thought they were the
men most competent to the duties which were to be performed.
The Hon. and Learned Gentleman says, however, that the Com-
mission was composed wholly of the friends and immediate de-
pendants of the Lord Chancellor—(hear, hear)—persons who
either owed him obligations for favours past, or were seeking obli-
gations for the future. He could not, he confessed, avoid feeling
astonished at that assertion. The Vice-Chancellor was one of the
Commissien. What motive could he have to screen the Lord Chan-
cellor's errors, or to decide according to his wishes? Mt. Hart
was another, a Gentleman high at the Chancery Bar, seeking nei-
ther favour for the future nor owing obligations for the past ; for
he believed that he owed even his silk gown to the recommen-
dation of Lord Erskine. He could have no motive for conceal.
ing a fact or changing the truth. Mr. Bell was another person
proposed to be a Member of that Commission. He had himself
intimated to Mr. Bell his wish that he would become a Member,
but not until Mr. Bell had retired from practice at the Bar. It
was impossible, therefore, to accuse that Gentleman of a desire to
favour the Lord Chancellor. Then there was the Hon. Member
for Tregony (Dr. Lushington), and the Hon. Member for Lincoln
(Mr. R. Smith), neither of whom were likely to be influenced by
any improper motives in their decision. Was it possible, he would
ask, that all these Gentlemen, some of them Members, who almost
uniformly espoused the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's views in
politics, should be so weak as to suffer themselves to be de-
luded by the Lord Chancellor's urbanity, into a consent to
propositions which they knew to be decidedly erroneous ?
The very supposition, on the part of the Hon. Gentleman, was a
species of censure which he would not venture to cast upon them.
If any man wished to know what was the daily labour of the Lord
Chancellor for the last three years, and what was the amount of
business disposed of in the Court of Chancery, lot him turn to the
1,115 th page of the second volume of that flimsy Report, and he
would find it described with the most painful particularity. It
was, to his mind, a most painful and humiliating sight to see the
daily occupations of such a man detailed. But, if any man
wished to see them, let him turn to that page, and he would find
them. He was not one of those who thought the Lord
Chancellor—the first Lawyer in the kingdom—ought to be ex-
cluded from all connection with the Cabinet. He did not think
that the first Law Officer in the realm should be precluded from
giving his opinion upon those cases of criminal law which came
before the Government; and if there were any who thought,
that in looking at that paper that the Lord Chancellor
had not done enough in six hours a day, let them recollect the
various other avocations which required a share of his attention.
Let them take the whole tenor of that excellent person's life ; let
them consider tthat the whole gravamen of all the charges against
him rests upon a too scrupulous desire to administer impartial
justice; and when they have recollected that lie has held the si-
tuation of Lord Chancellor for a longer period than any other
who ever preceded him, let them say whether any man of feeling
could consent to a course which must have brought down those
grey hairs with sorrow is the grave, as he was confident they must
have been brought, had the motion for an inquiry into his conduct
received the assent of this House.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. BROUGHAM, in explanation, begged to
observe, that in speaking of the private fortune of the Lord Chan-
cellor as being a million and a half, he did not intend to describe
it as amounting to that sum, but merely as being, according to
common rumour, very large.
Mr. PEEL said his earnestness on the subject pro-
ceeded from a desire to guard against the probability of such re-
port going abroad among the people at the present moment, as
that the Lord Chancellor has amassed an immense fortune by
Bankruptcies, such an assertion was calculated to make an impres-
sion which might be extremely prejudicial.
Mr. BROUGHAM admitted he had said that the
Chancellor's yearly income was 18,0001. and never more than
20,0001. a year ; but he expressly declared that not more than
one-fourth, if so much, arose from bankruptcies.
Mr. ABERCROMBY would not at that late hour
detain the House by many observations ; but he could not allow
the insinuation and argument which had been pressed so strongly
by the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Peel) upon the sub-
ject of the Chancellor's resignation, to pass without a slight
explanation. The Right Honourable Gentleman seemed to think
that the motion of his Learned Friend, the late Member for
Ilchester (Mr. Williams), contained propositions and expres-
sions so degrading, that it was impossible for the Lord Chan-
cellor to hold his place for an instant, if the House had
consented to adopt it. Now the motion of the year 1811, which
the House had actually received and adopted, was in every respect
the same.—He believed it would puzzle the Conveyancers, with
whom the Right Hon. Gentlemen seem to have been holding such
an intimate connexion, to point out what there was in the one
motion, which must cause the Lord Chancellor to resign the in-
stant it was carried, different from the other, which being car-
ried, yet allowed him to remain contentedly inoffice.—(Hear.)
Mr. PEEL said, the speeches, the manner, and the
avowed motives of those who made the motions, were better in-
dications of what was intended than the motions themselves.
Leave was then 'given to bring in a Bull for the Improve-