The Sun.
London, England, 1842-07-23 00:00:00

of the Right Honourable Gentleman to en inequality
in the punisiimpnts rnovided by this Bili. In the. 10th
clause the punishment provided fur the forgery of Ex-
chequer bilis was seven years' transportation, or trans-
portation- for life, while some other minor forgeries
were punished with transportation for fourteen years
and upwards.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he
would consider the point. •
COLONIAL PASSENGERS BILL.
Lord STANLEY postponed the third reading of this
Bill to Tuesday nest, on which day he gave the Hon.
Gentleman opposite (Mr. Hawes) notice that it would
take precedence of other motions.
POOR-LAWS.
On the motion for the third reading of the Poor-law
Bill,

the central authority. If they put. an end to char
vernment by unione, they must have rricoil..,7 ":
system of parochial government, and the question 10
be if the system of parochial government should- be,
resort to, subject to local prejudices and feelings oil'.
„„..................
appeal, a system. which he believed none of those!:
heard him would wish to see established ; and if
appeal were given, he was at a loss to know to wbeiiie
appeal could be given except to the local magist,
The first was a system which he -had not heare's,
gentleman advocate. It would be a system
,of °rig'
tigated oppression and injustice to draw -.,0 le
tinctiou between what were called the deseile
poor by giving the relief, and refusing re,„;
as a punishment to those who in that nab',
circle would be considered, probably most uni,,l I
considered, as undeserving. —(Cheers.) Sacs
system could only lead to the most monstrous tY"'-i
and oppression.—(Cheers.) To give relief witheati"o
peal would only be to revert to that-state of ,ii,,eii
which had existed from 1796 to 1834, and evbie„'y
produced such a state of affairs that the interven",G4,
the Legislature was at the time admitted to be ine'r t
sable. The Hon. Member for Rochdale made it 011
his objections to the present system, that there olsfea
appeal from the Board of Guardians. He, theretv
would object to a system of local government sli to
appeal, and the Hon. Member for Oldham had totifte
him (Sir J. Graham) for saying that there was an sCrio
from .he Board of Guardians to the Assistant
.1'0; it
Commissioner, and from the Assistant Ceiaie
sioner to the Commissioners themselves.
~riel
Honourable Member bad said that the Commiss'pf,
themselves had no power of ordering refill,
He felt bound distinctly to admit that there was cartf
no power on the part of the CoMmissioners to order
lief, but where the relief had been refused capricie,voi/
by the Board of Guardians, and the party applied tt
oil,
Central Board, it Lad beet found effectual. He was u,sl/00
Hog to refer to the state of the country in 1831, 1'
tte
the Hon. Member for Oldham had stated, the
rie
tress existing in the country was a great deal worSe)
than it was in 18N. Now, with respect to that, he ac
read a letter from Bedford, a hich stated, that the di'r'e
.in Bedford was much greater than at the prese* Oi
His Noble correspondent informed him that the gill
1 contrast existed between the state of the countrecapi
the old law and under the present in the county Or is
ford, and that. speaking generally, there was a largeao
mend fur, efficient workmen throughoutthe CO ei
ea-
and that the happiest change was effected in the e oit
tion of the working classes. The Hon. Member for
ham used strong declamation against this measarey
most unjust and most unfair, and said he would ba'ott
repent of its fatal effects. What did the Hon. Gentle et
want ? Did he really desire that the able-bodied •
should be dependent on the poor-rate for his stint° $
(Hear, hear.) He objected to the present law, bu, it
did not venture to say he was satisfied with the old
After all which had occurred with respect to this 1,.' 0
would be satisfactory to state distinctly and 0PL,1%,
what law they desired for the able-bodied workP" i
He gave the Hon. Member credit for his kindgelil
the poor. He was aware that in his own
_...vni
bourhood, and with regard to those "twijf.
who were immediately
_dependent on him, he ell .14
tremely kind—(Hear, hear)—and that his acts illustrl)
the sentiments he expressed in favour of the pe:or, 1j
were themselves deserving of the highest attention;„/
he (Sir James Graham) should be glad to know Po
the Hon. Gentleman, as he was not satisfied with,
present law, what law he would recommend as a s,ll i!
tute, if the law at present existing were repel"
(Hear, hear.) He had taken part in various Como d
of Inquiry ; he had read the Commission, and der t,O
much attention to the subject, but the result 01
attention did not enable hint to offer any nieeVll rd
kt,
this subject more preferable than that under discusd
It was quite vain to say that the Bill prevented 1d
except in the workhouse. He must say that such "i
be unjust. But it was not so. He had already 51,,, v"oti
that the amount of out-door relief was sporty e
The Honourable Member for Oxford ha& 1 cl'
a question to him (Sir James Graham) reiyt64
ing the number of widows relieved. There ;1;1
165,000 granted relief, and out of that nunfeer&
13,000 were relieved in the workhouse. flis ;0
Friend then asked the number of able-bodied o,!elY
the workhouse. He held in his hand the number 015 0
bodied paupers in England and Wales during thq
quarters of 1840 and 1841. 1
'c°
Captain PECHELL does that include the Local.o
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said it did not include 1,,)
Gilbert Unions. The number of adult able-be
paupers relieved in the quarter ending LadydaY,..id
was 297,675. Out of this 300,000 adult paupers, 1"
~1$
House suppose that there was one half in the workh,
_,
—one quarter ? No, those relieved in the workb,: ti
out of that number was only 50,000. Therefore jails, i
of fact the number of persons relieved was 01111
.d, I;
twenty-five persons. In the quarter ending Laity 1,
1841, the whole ntunber was 345,656 able- ,001
paupers relieved in that period, while onil
0,10
50,000 of them were relieved in the worAn (e,
He could conceive one state of things in which thes,:f.!o
hibitory order might be necessary, and another st,,', ti/
things in which it might be expedient to give to a " di
the out door labour test ; a.d other circumstance 1/
which it would be harsh and cruel to a
Under t workhouse test or the out-door labour test. U
circumstances it must be evident to every one, that 1: 01:j
discretionary powers should be vested somewhere. rill
in his (Timm-. ',metier.. could it be better vested the !v
the hands of Commissioners. He was satisfied on „tot
pply_eitner
,4
whole that this measure was adapted to secure the joi
and safe administration of relief to the pour ; for' '..,tot
relief, which was the distinguishing characteristic or I,F
policy of this country, unless checked, was caPlot
of great abuse. !laving no personal fear .'for
-t 0
obloquy which might attach to him, he 'fn.( tposr; el
measure, which in his heart and conscience he belie, $1
to be most humane. He had not hesitated a wale,'
the course which he should adopt, and het earnest'l44l
treated the House to pass the Bill, by such A 1331:1 11
as should mark to the poor that they did not hesitat t'
the course which they should adopt for t'oeir benefli•
Mr. O'CONNELL—The Right Heim Baronet, ' Pos
had just sat down, said it would be cruel in the extre le
unwise in the extreme, unjust in the extreme, if n° el(
lief should be given, under any circumstances, to 8 ite
bodied labourers. Teat, however, was the law in ece
land ; and it was his intention, on some other pea! : is
to speak more at length on this subject. N
His objectic 510
the present Bill was its continuance of the 'oro
Commission. He rejoiced to see the liberality with i. 4-170
the system was worked out. He hoped that the- _
_ar',,: /
would be ameliorated in Ireland. He had been Silw„„, 4' tic
solicited to bring the subject forward, but he would ,c• el
till the next session, when he pledged himself 'not t 474 ir
a week pass without applying for a Committee, rii
quire into the working of the system in IreV.nd. I,J
the present, he felt bound to vote against Pee Bill, ne
reason of the continuance of the Commisei on for z'',
than one year.
i$
Captain BERKELEY admired. the 'manly waY, fie
which he the Right Hon. Barons the Fiecretary for,
of
Home Department had taken upon hirf iself all theodi oe
attached to this Bill.. When the tneatsure had been ' sr
ginally brought forward he (0,-hptaizi Berkeley) had st I
ported it, and- he now rot; to dechere his willingness 1
share in the unpopulatty which was affixed to it. it
. Colonel SIBTHC;ip oßill, believing it pposed'‘o the third reading_ of t
'‘o be productive of great mischief.
,t; i
General Gel JrJHNSON objected to giving unconirol
power to racy three individuals, whoever they might
and thfreefore he oppoied the Bill, Hon. Gentlemen ‘! f
Poslf".., who bad opposed this Bill, must be very co{o t
Waisfied, if they now voted for the third readin,p,o
the Bill had been so garbled and mangled that it w es id/
possible to know what it was, or -on what they. t f,41
voting. Its principle was to make the people live 0,0
little as possible, and to constitute the Commii, iio° to
judges of how small a quantity of food would ar'effie9ct
keep body and soul together. It could never enbeilto
wages, it must depress them ; and as he ass Qr,)po.
~,
everytLing that tended to ceetraliaation, he was opP'
to this Bill.
The gallery wns then cleared, and the: House divided'
For the third reading ." . 103
Against it
Majority in favour of the third reading --73
The Bill was then a third time,
we
Sir T.D. ACLAND said he sliould move the fall
ing clause as a rider to the Bill :—" To enable /4':(as
diens to appoint local committees for receiving aPri,ti,ot
tions of poor persons in parishes situate`, at a cer of
distance from the place of meeting of thea 1303rc i d
tiiti
Guardians." He hoped the Right Hon. 13aronet "ci
be neur on this subject, but allow the }louse to exP, 1/
its opinion on it. Be had known many pi )or perionshef'
and 18 miles across the country to obtain relief, anal"'
all, return disappointed. It' they introduced L*
Committees, they would have another
good effect be' t" aOl
relieving the poor applicants ; they would be a ' -
of cheek, upon the Board of Guardiane.
Sir C. ;NAPIER seconded the motion. The Rigbal•
,ss,
Baronet 4tated that he had known cases where the '-'",, elite
mission( rs had obtained relief for people aho had 'mete
unjustly reitistd 'relief by the guardians, and tbi nerP
stated as one proof-of the good of the Commiss:c „Ay
eV by, how often, he should like to know, did the Lt, e
missioners o round, and how could the poor or f,31 the
them for relief; alien they had been refused it °roper,
gust diane ? Ile had not seen a Pour-law Coaarai s'wetee
or an Assistant-Commissioner, in his Uni 1.0, ' ther•,;-
months, and he did not care if he never; saw or .otorg
(Laughter.) He firmly believed that ,:n, coma iiesi„,,ood
prevented the guardians' from male,ng
as they often fen inclined to do. 'de should ri ='°11:1, tile
the 1a,4 ' s°,:ead
that the people should give ti„tr money to. elelicaiiieg
support of the union poorhow,es, and, insteted 01 Unto
them " Union Workhouses:l
Clubs."—(Hear.)
•
The clause aas then read a first time.
he would cull theta '
On the motion the.t the clause be read a ocotd tio • -
Captain RECI-r-IuLL approved of the elou90:,i0111‘.
~..,
thought it would, he deeiralsle if the extent of the an
i 0
be circurascribed. •
Mr. P. HOWARD trusted the clause evatild:beceiv
spy
Mr. the unanimous vote 'of the House. %
. .-- • -':-..,e,'''
Mr. P. BORTHWIC.Ii. supported the es asvi.
• ditto'
Mr. HARDY woalit be very glad to se e this
passed.
General
J'bHNSON thought the local in 2
toritte es
ought to breve the power of orderiCoa
ng relief at once ;-'
reporting, cases was a very- lofty; proCess.
Sir J. GRAHAM highly atoproved of
he thought it would be most etestrable to in
le
.t.cleusei b6`
At the same time that he consented to the.,,__ti tO
wished it to be understood t hat he could not d lee
the Committee power tQ or der relief.— (Cheers') be let'
The clause was then agreed to, and ordered to .
tached to the Bill.
the R. i'l!t
Sir T. D. ACLA'SD returned thanks to _ :4s
v ) '" Hon. Baronet and the I rouse for bating acceded
motion. the eila_4useLtarehorie.,j„.:
The Bill was then read: a third time.
On the question that the Bill do pass, „ e
Mr. FIELI)EN moved . that the Bill be prints'.
An Hole: MEMBER Sec ended the motion.