The Sun.
London, England, 1829-03-06 00:00:00

able power ; and on the other h •fid, that there was very
little probability of its icing ;bused. My objection tea the
veto 11, that it woolf he the coinmenceinent of a qti t-
iieed establishment of the Roman Catholic Church.
My dlijettdlan ie, net that lc ::;..'"1 be 4". unreasonable
ddemandein the pail of the Crown, hut ma: %r° "a",
Oreseifted to 0 a Vet of n lin of those who are can-
Clidataa fe?. this' ui;stet:leaf curt,' atM ,thin newer of episiopacy
in Ireland, WV a ..P,i 1 111111 it VEl'echit free mirselves
of that respintst et,ty which would attach rri
we should be pasties to the nomination, and, in fact, the
commencement of a qualified establishment, which, of ;!
all other things, under existing circumstances, it is de-
eieable, to avoid altegether.—(Cheeres)--I abandon the
Kati ail!'7,eft"er.-eafiret., bsscaure , it„ie no rational security ;
and, secondly, oecauee (deer:llene trlze? Ire marls
,to it which
are not worth raising. It is better that we shoald
securities, which are manifestly of no efficacy.—(Cheers.)
—lt would be ridiculous, it seems to me, to appoint a
commission of Roman Catholic Prelates to certify the clia-
racter for loyalty of a candidate fur a See in Ireland. It
world give no power to the Crown, while it would impose
a responeiiiiiity on the Crown; It would be infinitely
fairer not to take securities of no value. So likewise at to
the examination of the intercouse with the See of Rotrie,
there was no objection existing to it ; hut I confess I have
no desire myself to inspect it—(hear, hear, hear),—be-
Catise it may be argued that this is intercourse en-
tirely relating to spiritual matters ; and I suspect that,
SO far from being satisfactory to this country, it would
rather have the opposite effect ; as I believe that the people
think the Secretary of State ought no more to interfere
in the spiritual affairs of the Church of Rome than
in those of the Wesleyan Methodists.—(Cheers.)—
If the time should ever arrive when danger should
arise, I, for, one, after the abolition of the civil disabilities
of the Roman Catholics, should not hesitate a moment to
come down to this House, and ask for a law to interdict
any such intercourse, and to require all the correspondence.
that might be passing, every document, lay or spiritual,
to be submitted to the inspection of his Majesty's Govern-
ment. The great advantage of settling the Roman Ca-
tholic Question is, that we shall be enabled to take any
securities that our dangers may render necessary.—(Hear.)
We shall be enabled, in that case, to hold a high and inde-
pendent tone with respect to the Roman Catholics of
Ireland, and the Legislature will deal with them es with
any other class of the King's subjects. At present we
cannot, because the state of things growing out of the Ca-
tholic Question prevents us from taking the proper steps.
There are, however, some points which may be regulated,
and which, in no respect will trespass on the civil privi-
leges or religious discipline the Roman Catholics can re-
quire to preserve in Ireland, and which will at the same
time be satisfactory to the Protestant mind, which it is ex-
ceedingly desirable to conciliate. I think fit, therefore, to
provide, that when a Roman Catholic shall be admitted to
any corporate office, or other office in administration of
the law, under no circumstances shall the insignia of office
he taken to any other place of worship than one belonging
to the Established Church; and that the robes of au-
thority shall not be exhibited in any place of religious
worship but one of the Established Church. If the in-
signia of office be carried in religious ceremonies, they shall
be carried alone to places of worship which are in the Pro-
testant Communion. There is a practice which has grownup
in Ireland, and which has given great and Just offence : I
mean that of the Roman Catholic Bishops assuming the
titles that belong to those of the Established Church. I
shall propose that the episcopal dignities and titles in the
united Church of England and Ireland shall not be as-
sumed by the Roman Catholic Bishops to themselves.
Bishops I call them, for Bishops they are ; and they have
a right to exercise their power as such in their own church.
Their ordination is no doubt valid ; but it is not seemly or
decorous that the rights of the Bishops of the Established
Church should be publicly and ostentatiously assumed, as
their titles have been of late, by the Roman Catholic
Bishops.—(Hear, hear.)—The Bill then proceeds with
respect to the religious societies. Some of these have ex-
cited great suspicion and distrust in this country, and
given great offence. I mean the extension of those reli-
gious orders and communities which are hound by monas-
tic vows, and particularly the introduction of that order
which is called Jesuits. I do not think there should be a
provision 0 1 this head. The parties at present here
ought not to be interfered with ; but we ought to knew
their number, and require to have their names registered.
We are entitled to require also that those communities
which ate bound by monastic vows shall not extend for the
future. There will therefore be a provision against the in-
troduction of any extraordinary number of that class of
men into this country, to which they come because other
countries have set their face against them, and for that rea-
son they resort to this country. Other countries have
taken precautions against them, and are must adapt our
laws to the circumstances under which they are to exist.—
While we leave to every party the full enjoyment of the
privileges he now possesses on the registration of his name,
I feel it right to take security against the entrance of others
into this country, and against the extension of religious
communities, the members of which owe no allegiance to
any body but to their superior, who is resident at the
Court of Rome. Their expulsion from other countries,
and their arrival in England, with considerable funds,
which they may apply to purchase endotvinente, have
given serious alarm, and produced much uneasiness
among many persons, and to my mind this appears to
he a fit subject of legislation. The Bill will, therefore, take
precautions against the future arrival of Jesuits in this
country, and require the registration of those here at pre-
sent. It will also prevent the extension of those religious
orders which are bound by monastic vows, and which are
in no way necessary to the free exercise of the Roman Ca-
tholic Religion.—( Hear. )----1 have not intentionally omitted
any of the provisions which the Bill contains. I shall pro-
pose, in the next Committee, to move a Resolution, which
will he the foundation of tie Bill for the admission of the
Roman Catholics to their civil privileges, and which will
make the other regulations I have detailed. At the saute
time I may state, that after the Resolution is passed I shall
move fur leave to bring in a separate Bill, the object of
which will be the regulation of the elective franchise. Thus,
Sir, I have disclosed the principle of this measure. I trust it
will be calmly and dispassionately considered, and in the spirit
in which we ought to proceed, namely, with a desire to
put a safe and satisfactory end to this question. I.et us
all bear in mind what the consequence will be if this Bill
should be rejected.—(Loud cries of hear, hear.)—This
measure applies equally and impartially to all. I will not
pretend that specious or even solid objections may not be
made to it, as they may be made to any measure of an
extensive and complicated nature ; but depend on it, we
never should settle the Catholic Question, if every Mems
her be determined that' it should be settled according to
his own views.—(Cheers.)—l ask, whether there is not
a chance, by uniting the Protestant mind, that we shall
find new and efficient securities against any dangers that
can arise ? I ask the Roman Catholics themselves, whe-
ther the concessions which are rendered necessary on
their part are to be compared with the sacrifices made
by those who are unwilling to consent to a departure
from laws which have given—it is in vain to deny it—
an exclusive character to our Legislature and Govern..
ment ? God grant that the sanguine expectations of
those who for years have embraced this question may be
fulfilled ! God grant that the removal of the disabili-
ties of the Roman Catholics may assuage the civil con-
tentions of the country, and that, by a free intercourse,
their mutual jealousies may be removed ; and instead of
looking on each other as adversaries and opponents, they
may, by mixing in competition, join in carrying the pri-
vileges of their free state, and learn to respect and value
each other, and find out qualities which yet are actually
unknown to either. lam not so sanguine in my expecta-
tions as to the future; but I have no hesitation in saying,
that I do believe that the adjustment of this question, in
the manner I propose, will give better securities to the
Protestant interests and the Protestant establishments than
the present state of things, and avert the dangers which
are impending and immediate.—(Cheers.)—What motive
can I have for expressing the opinions 1 do, but my
honest conviction of their truth ?—(Cheers.)—With
the information of which I am officially itt possession,
with the reasons I have, after daily watching the progress
of events—which, as was said by Mr. Grattan, "like
the mist at the heels of the countryman, gradually en-
velopes one object after another,"---what motive can
I have but one of an honest and legitimate nature ?
I koow I could have taken a more popular and pa-
latable course--a more popular among the friends with
whom I have been lung connected—a more palatable to
the constituents whom I have lost. " His ego gratiora
dictu alia esse scio ; sed me Vera pro gratis loqui, et si
meum ingenium non moneret, necessitas cogit. Vellem
equidern robis placere, sed multo malo YOB salvos etse
qualecunque erga me animo futuri estis.—(Loud cheers.)
I have consulted and acted for the best for the Protestant
establishments. This is my defence to the accusations
brought against me ; this is my consolation for the sacri-
fices I have made, and this shall be my revenge,—(Loud
cheers.)--I trust that the turbid waters of strife will sub-
side; but if these expectations should be disappointed, if
struggles and contentions should still take place, if there
should be difficulties before us, let us reflect whether they
will not arise out of the artificial distinctions arising front
unequal privileges. But if there should be something in
the character of the Roman Catholic religion which will
not be content with equal rights nor any thing short of
supremacy, yet I am satisfied with the change. If the

battle 10:st lie fought, it must now be for other objects._
Let the worst cone to the worst, the contest must now, I
repeat, he for o•ber objects and on other grounds. The
contest teili he, 110 t far all equiliV of civil rights, hut fur
the predominance of au intolerant religion.—(Cheers.)
We 1440 fight the battle with greater advantage. If the
„,,t „,.pait.cons should be realised—if the more
- • I •••o; -owe‘ces to come should turn
formidamb •
nut. hipeven • " should Ftrugje, with
a atm]. s, ,•
Cud world, against
the sympathy of aih•the tr,? • Fe.ple
Le tninance' or an. i oant religion.---.o.:27r'')
! We shall enter into the contest with the advantage of having
dissolved the moral alliance vs now exists among the
Roman Catholics, and with the countenatlt'' tbsse au-
thorities who have, fir so long a period, opposed this
tion. They will be transferred to our side, and I have not
nAnbt that in that contest, it it should ever happen, we
snail (elects),: the unanimous feeling of
this country, as it is dcroonst.:atSdhiy those petitions which
have been presented against the measair:'.', and,itt which
find its real security.—(Loud cheers.)—By ih2 ii7isfisof
orthodoxy and dissent, and with the assistance of the voice
of Scotland, and with other aid, if it were neeessary, we
should he cheered by the friendship of every free State, and
have tll6 good wishes and prayers of every freeman, in
whatever clime, and tinder whatever form of government
or religion. The Right Hon. Gentleman sat down amidst
loud cheering for some minutes.
The SPEAKER read the motion,-which wag, that
" this House do resolve itself into a Committee of the whole
House, with a view to consider the Laws imposing Civil
Disabilities on his M jesty's Roman Catholic subjects."
Mr. PANKES said, the Right Hon. Gentleman, in the
course of his able speech, had appealed strongly to the
House; and had stated, as a preliminary reason, that things
could not remain as they stood in their present situation.
The Right Hon. Gentleman had also desired to know
what reasons they would recommend whose sentiments
were in contradiction to his ?. The Right Hon. Gentle-
man asked what answer they could give? He (Mr.
Bankes) would reply to him, that he had himself fur-
nished an answer ; for in the discussions that had taken
place during the last ten or fifteen years, the Right Hon.
Gentleman had, over and over again, sheaved the danger
and injustice of admitting the Catholics to political power.
If he (Mr. Banke) answered the Right Hon. Gentleman,
then it would be from his own speeches; and especially,
in those he had delivered in reply to Mr. Canning. The
object of this House should he to maintain the Protestant
Establishment, unalterable and unimpaired. Before be
(Mr. Bankes) entered on an examination of the provisions
of the Bill, he would recur to some observations madelby
the Right Hon. Gentleman, with regale' to the Catholic
Association. For his part, when he heard the dangers
admitted to exist, by the Right Hon. Gentleman, he
could not help doubting whether those who had brought
us into such difficulties might not be blind guides.—
(Hear, hear.)--The Right Hon. Gentleman admitted
that the Catholic Association had assumed a dangerous
tone. He recollected that, in 1525, a Bill was brought
in by his Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the -Ex-
chequer, to suppress that Association ; but the Crown
Lawyers pronounced it to be completely inefficient, and
no proceedings were ever taken under it. What then was
the duty of Government? They admitted the danger
that resulted from the acts of the Catholic Association ;
but the Right Hon. Gentleman had been telling an old
story, which, after all, afforded no reason why the Asso-
ciation was not suppressed. He would refer to the speeches
of Mr. Canning and Lord Plunkett—two persons quite
unexceptionable as to their opinion on this question. He
was glad a Bill had been carried to put down the Catholic
Association ; for many persons believed that it was an ob-
stinate and factious body. It was contended that this was
a purely political question, but he denied it—it was a
mixed question, for it was impossible to separate its
features. The Constitution of the country made a dif-
ference, and he was, therefore, entitled to say that the
question was religious as well as political.—(Cries of
" order, order !" and " hear, hear !")—After the Catholics
should once be admitted into power, there would no
longer be any security fur the Government. With regard
to the ulterior object of the measure—(here the confusion
was so great, that the Hon. Gentleman's voice became ire-
audible).—Could there be the least doubt that this measure
had been procured through the exertions of the Catholic
Association ? There had been a great clamour made by
that body, that the Catholics of Ireland were net repre-
sented, but had that been established as a real grievance?
With respect to the forty shilling freeholders.—(Here
again it was impossible to follow the Hon. Gentleman,
owing to the confusion which prevailed in the House.)—
The alteration which was to be made as to the amount
that was to give a freeholder the right of voting appeared
to him to be but a small compensation for the other
features of the measure.

Mr. O'NEIL then rose to address the House, but the
confusion still continued so great as occasionally to inter-
rupt the Hon. Gentleman. He said that an observation
had escaped the Right Hon. Gentleman in the course of
his speech—he trusted that it had only escaped him, be-
cause it appeared to convey a reproach to those who had
voted on the same side as that which the Right Hon.
Gentleman had hitherto supported. The Right Hon.
Gentleman, as it seemed to him, had brought a charge
against them of something like desertion, because it had on
former occasions been chiefly left to him to address the
House in opposition to the Catholic Claims. He could
tell the Right Hon. Gentleman, that the reason why that
had happened was, because he had been looked upon as the
undeviating advocate of the Protestant cause, and, because,
under those circumstances, other Hon. Gentlemen had felt
that they were nut justified in thrusting themselves for-
ward ; and fur himself, he begged to say, that if he had
not come forward at an earlier period, it was not from any
indifference to the cause, but from a consciousness of his
own incapability to do justice to it. The speech of the
Right Hon. Gentleman had in same degree surprised him,
for he certainly had expected to have heard him pronounce
something like an enlogium on die great architect of the
measure—on the Minister who had frainesl and put to-
gether this Bill, that was to astonish all the world ; but
the Right Hon. Gentleman, instead of that, had contented
himself with introducing the measure on the narrow ground
of policy and expediency,—(Great laughter,)—disdaining
the more noble ground of liberality and concession. The
House would allow him to remind them of the sentiments
which had formerly fallen from the Learned and Noble
Lord (Lyndhurst), and still more of the words of the Noble
Duke who was now at the head of the Government, in
which he had said that no doubt could be entertained,
from the present feelings of the Roman Catholics, that if
they were admitted to political power, their first exertions
would be to restore their religion to its original supremacy,
and to obtain possession of that property which had been
wrested from them at the time of the Reformation.—
(Hear, hear.)—Bus in spite of this opinion of the Noble
Duke, which had been expressed in 1819, he did not find
that there was any clause introduced in the Bill which
had just been proposed to the House that was calculated
to guard against any such attempt.---(Hear, hear.) But
this was not the only authority he had. In May, 1317,
tile Right Honouradde Gentleman himself had made use
of this language —(Considerable confusion. )--He really
must claim the attention of the House; he only asked
them to listen to one word from him. His motive for
alluding to these former speeches of the Right Honourable
Gentleman was that he might afford him an opportunity of
giving some answer to them, for be must confess that as
yet he had heard no reason sufficient to explain the awful
dilemma in which the country was placed.—(A laugh.)—
The Right Hon. Gentleman, in the speech to which he al-
luded, asked whether the House did not think that the Ca-
tholics would aspire to the establishment of their own. re-
ligion; and he (Mr. O'Neil) hoped that it would be con-
ceded that the Catholics of 1829 had shown no such to-
leration or temper that greater trust was to be put in them
than in the Catholics of 1817. Would not, the Right
Hon. Gentleman asked—would not the Catholics aspire to
the establishment of their religion in all its ancient splen-
dour ? If he were placed in their situation, he should an-
swer for them that he would. If then, this was the case,
had not he (Mr_ O'Neil) a right to question the policy of
admitting those into power who entertained views hostile
to the Constitution ? The Right Hon. Gentleman now,
however, contended that the safety of Ireland required
that the professors of all religions should be admitted to a
participation of equal rights.—(lncreased confusion. )—He
intreated the attention of the House. He was not forcii.g
on the House his own sentiments, but stating the words of
the Right lion. Gentleman, whose language they would
not hear now.—(A laugh.) Supposing at any time it
should occur that they should have a King who, though ap-
parently Protestant, was secretly a Catholic—the conse-
quence would he, that he would select a Catholic Minister,
who in his turn would select a party on whom he could
rely, and gradually make them amends for their long ex-
clusion from the honours and privileges of the State. Ile
begged to ask the Right Hon Gentleman—he would appesl
to him—whether he had seen a Resolution of the Catholic
Association ; and if he had, whether be supposed that the
proposed measure was one which would tend to tranquil-
lize Ireland ? On the 10th of December, last year, a Re-
-1 solution to the Catholic Association had been unanimously
agreed to, " That the best security of the Government
was to be found in the happiness and freedom of the people ;
and that they were ready to give in return for Emancipa-
tion, the security of their oaths of allegiance ; but at the
same time they were bound to declare, that any conditions
annexed to the restoration of their rights would only tend

to the increase of the danger." There was also another Mons. Now he would ask Nyhrtli,r tars Right Hen. (-sees.
self-dissolved, hut, as he believed, changes of opinion were to take place, thatP stone of where
Resolution which hal been unanimously passed by that now ought not to have considered it was just as Right
wh
laugh,)—to the effect that any BilliaflnerlYEenxiattcinipgabtioo'lliy,—ac(a-- Right Hon. G:itleman's colleagues in the Cabinet who
ohnieerw,moilrddenro.t)—be
Htoongoouszberle toGetnlitelesmidaen
of
lndb hostility,
i tyfr,ietnhdasn shouldtlat thaehaßnidgohnt
companied with an eueroachment ( n the rights of the were friendly to conceseion, might have been induced
flo-iret3b-esgle' iti!isilntgh e :itfreeholder.tc)li —of ( (tl.:em fliii'(ii(umse—;
put down by eletuour—(hear;and great laughter)—he was those sentiment, from mere policy,
there an independent Mami:E., and not as the tool of a- they maintain ? He put °nom it to the Right II -asll e
Lord.—(::bouts of laughter. )--The Resolution went on Gentleman whether some of those persons might not
to say, that in such a case every parish would assemble and have been persuaded to change their opinions, and whether
•lermunce an attack on the rights of men whose constitu- it would not thus have been ' possible to form a Cabinet
reis constituted ' • ' •
tional den,— 'then moy crimes ; but at the satisfactory to the feelings of the people of England and
crow them with
same time they cams .. contempt any attempt united in their opposition to what is called the Catholic
tre. Meddle with the forty-s,`..'lling
__.
freeholders. Now he Claims? In his .opinion, it would have been much
wished td .kstowhow the ferty-sliiiiM: freeholders would more satisfactory to the friends of the Right Hon. Gen-
teel, when they fo;j'AM' that by this Act their .7:;abours, Venter], and redounded much more to his honour and to
who happened to be a little fisher than themselves, wC his reputation for consistency, if, instead of striking his
elevated to a superior rank—he wiend to put that to the coLosre- to the enemy, he had raised them in support of
comideration of Government, and he widred to ask the the cause he had always advocated and supported. He
House whether the forty-shilling freeholders, ow fesding was confident that the Protestants could have carried any
ilietiis'il4est.dePrived of their elective franchise, would trot cause under such a leader.—Meer, and laughter.) It
muse all their es'.e4tio4s to bully, intimidate, and force the had been contended that they were bound to make con-
-101. freeholders to vote e'sdlsey pleased ? He looked upon cessions, in order to avoid the horrors of civil war ; but
it that England bad been unfaitiY dealt with in this ques- he conceived that those who made these assertions were
tion; the country was not fairly represented; end he dared unacquainted- with the strength and resources of those
the Ministers to a dissolution--(Laughter, and iceae.,) whose interests they abandoned. Independent of all phy-
They knew they could not carry the measure if the present deal power, there was a moral force sufficient for the
Parliament were to be dissolved.—(More laughter.)—He prezetvetion of their dominion ; but by this unhappy ex-
said, in the name of the people of England—(Laughter—in pedient, which they were about to adopt, they would
which the conclusion of the Hon. Gent's sentence was lost.) be driven to the sad alternative of choosing, not between
He said that the Perliametrt of 1820 had been elected in the evils of concession and the horrors of civil wse,
the understanding that the Cabinet was so constituted that hut between the chance of insurrection to-day, in
the Catholies would never come in ; confidence in the Ad- order that they may fall into the infinitely greater
ministration of Lord Liverpool was the basis of the Parlia- l evils of civil war to-morrow.—(licar, hear, hear.)—As
meat in 1826, and he therefore contended that a dissolu- his Hon. Friend, the Member for Dorsetsbire (Mr.
tion was the only fair way of erriving at the sense of the Bankes'e, had jtustly and truly observed, they were post-
country. poning resistance toe day, in order that they may come to
On the Hon. Gentleman sitting down, relr; TRANT and the consideration of the propriety of that resistance under
Sir 11. lisotes presented themselves to the House.. The much more disadvantageous circumstances hereafter. He
cry was very general for the latter ; but NI not accuse his Majesty's Iliinisfens of being unwilling
Mr. THANT addressed the House, and said that his to matte sacrifices, nor did he undervalue those which had
feelings on the subject were so deeply rooted that all the been made he, the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Peel) pet-
eloquence of his Right Hon. Friend's four-hours' speech senally ; but he contended that his Majesty's Govern meet
had not been able to shake his opinion. He wished to had miscalculated their own strength, and undervalued tlie
examine the arguments which his Right Hon. Friend had force of public opinion, lelren they consented to give way
advanced ; and, in the first place, with respect to his own to what they called expediency. The Noble Duke at the
peculiar situation, the House had beers told that his Right head of his Majesty's Government, who had been so•much
lion. Friend had felt his situation so peculiarly irksome, in the habit of wielding with skill the energies of brute
in having to advocate the Protestant cause almost alone in force, did not seem to him to display so much skill in con-
that House, that he had almost resolved to resign his ceiving the post-t or directing the force which arises from
office. He (lid not think that the defence of the Protestant public opinion. (Pleat, and laughter. ) The Hon. Mem-
cause had been so entirely left in the bands of his Right ber for Durham (Mr. M. A. Taylor) had, on it former
Hon. Friend as he seemed to suppose, though it certainly occasion, ridiculed the idea of the admission of half a doterr
was true that speaking was much more of a trade on that Catholic Peers making any difference in the Protestant Con-
(the Opposition) side of the House than on the other.—(Loud stitution of this country. It was not, howettr, this piebald
groaning, which lasted fur some seconds.) At all events, in mixture of a few Catholics with Protestants which was to
all the discussions that he bad witnessed on the question, be dreaded, so much as the power which the Minister'
there were at least three speakers to one in favour of the would obtain of making as many Peers from the class of she
Catholic Claims. (Cheers.) On one occasion, in the course Catholics as ire thought proper. (Hear, and laughter.) Tim
of a former discussion, he had riseninine times. (Laughter.) lion. Member concluded midst visible marks of impa-
Still he could not see that the state of the Cabinet tience in the House, by declaring that if the Catholics were

was such as to call for the present measure ; and he
thought that he was warranted in conclu,ling, that his
Right. Hon. Friend's dilemma was not so well founded as
he had supposed. But. his Right Hon. Friend had said,
that he would not have been able to have carried and•
strong measure for the suppression of the Catholic Associa-
tion. He did not see how that could be. Would not all
those who had voted against Catholic Emancipition last
year have voted for the putting down of the Association,
besides those who were in office ? He would then ask,
what became of the plea of his eight Honourable Friend,
as to the extreme necessity arising out of a divided Cabinet,
and of an unmanageable Houseof Commons? For his own
part he could not see that his Right Hon. Friend need
have deserted the cause of Protestanism. He did not in-

tend to make use of his Right Hon. Friend's speech, which
he had in his hand (a laugh)--and which Le might also say
he had by heart. He must, however, be allowed to say,
that it was a speech unanswerable even by his Right Hon.
Friend himself; and by that speech he (Mr. Peel) was so
screwed—so nailed down to the cause, that he defied him
to make a reply. He conceived all securities to be mere
delusions, calculated to postpone, but not to avert the evils
of concession ; and he was convinced that if the Govern-

meat persisted in thus flying in the face of the people of
this country, under the pretence of pacifying Ireland, they
would inflame the Protestants of England into a much
snore dangerous discottent. The Hon. Member conclud-
ed by declaring, that if the Catholics must be represented,
and if they Inuit be admitted into Parliament, he would
say, let them have a Parliament of their own in Ireland ;
for he would much rather consent to that, even if it
went to the dissolution of the Union, than that Catholics
should ever be permitted to sit in the Parliament of Eng-
land.—(Hear.)
Several Members then rose together ; but the call for
Sir Robert Inglis being both loud and general, the
Speaker declared that Honourable Member entitled to
precedence.
Sir ROBERT INGLIS then rose, and commenced bs,
expressing the pain he felt in being compelled to express
opinions upon this question diffel eat from those now adopt.
ed by his Right Hon. Friend—for he would still call him

so (Mr. Peel), and by the other Members of his Majesty's
Government. The Right Hon. Gentleman on this occa-
sion, as well as on the introduction of the Bill for the Sup-
pression of the Association, justified the change in his sen-
timents with regard to the Emancipation of the Catholics,
upon the ground of expediency and sound policy. Now
he conceived, with all submission, that the expediency or
the policy in such a case, and under such sacrifices, ought
not to be light, to form a justification for a departure from
long-established principle. He was prepared, indeed, to
contend that in a question so extraordinary, and involving
such weighty consequences, the expediency ought to be
almost approaching to overpowerin, necessity. Now the
Right Hon. Gentleman bad foundedb his defence of this
expediency upon three different grounds, which he had
successively laboured to establish. 1 he first of these was
raised upon the views he took of the present situation of
Ireland, both moral and political. The second was raised
upon his recollection of the evils which were engendered
by the formation of a Cabinet whose Members were divid-
ed upon the subject of concession to the Catholics. The
third was founded upon a history of the difficulties the
Right Hon. Gentleman himself had laboured under as a
Member of the Government, in what is called leading the
House of Commons; and then might be added to these
grounds a fourth reason, founded or composed of the two
last put together. Upon the first of the reasons for the
change of the Right Hon. Gentleman's opinions, he should
not at present make any very extended observations, be-
cause be conceived that the Right Hon. Gentleman bad
used the arguments upon the state of Ireland much more
forcibly and with much better effect when he urged them

emancipated, all the predictions and anticipations which
the Right Honourable Gentleman had formerly made or
felt would be realised; but he trusted that public opinion
would yet have its weit;lit, and that its voice would ulti-
mately be heard by the highest power in the country.
Sir GEO. MURRAY—Although I have ne,,v 5,1""'
given any vote upon this question, or taken any the
discussions which have at various periods taken place in
this House, I feel it is now absolutely necessary that I
should state my opinions—a necessity which I feel as an
individual Member of the House—and still more as a per-
son holding the situation of a Minister. So strongly in-
deed am I convinced of that necessity, that I think it
would be inconsistent with my duty if I failed to express
the opinions I entertain upon this most important question.

The only occasion when I gave a vote upon any question
connected with the Catholics xi as in the year 1825, and
upon the Bill for putting down the Association ; arid I do
not hesitate to express the conviction I had then, and which
I entertain to the same extent now, that the existence of
such an Association, whether composed of Catholics or of
Protestants, was inconsistent with the authority of any
form of Government in any country.—(Hear, hear.) On
the same grounds I voted during the present Session for

as forming an apology for the Bill to suppress the Catholic
Association. It might, however, be asked whether the mea-

the suppressing of the late Association : but with this ad-
ditional motive, that I conceived nothing could so much
impede or prejudice the discussions upon the measure now
before us, and which all persons admit to be calculated to
produce such important benefits to the country, as the ex-
istence of such an Association while those discussions were
proceeding. Although, however, I gave my vote to put
down tke Association of 1825, I did not take any part in
the discussions which afterwards took place upon the Ca-
tholic Question. I confess, however, that I had a strong
feeling in favour of the claims of the Catholics; but I found
the question surrounded by so many difficulties, and saw
so little prospect of the contending parties coming to any
satisfactory conclusion, that I abstained front taking any
part, either by my voice or my vote, in the discussions
which followed. Soon after the passing of the Bill of
1825, I was appointed to the chief command of the
army in Ireland. This appointment, of course, brought
me more closely in connexion with the people of

that country ; but having, in addition to the duties of
Military Commander, being called upon fora short
period to fill the situation of one of the Lords Jus-
tices, in the absence of the Lord Lieutenant, the
situation of the country was brought still more clusely
under my notice i❑ this double capacity. The result of
my observations was a thorough conviction that the coun-
try had arrived at a state in which it was impossible it
could remain, and that tie Government must either ad-
vance or recede from the course it had pursued. I say
impossible to remain, because all the ties of society were
beginning to be loosed, and the bonds which bound man to
his fellow man on the point of being broken.—(llear.)--.
Back I knew it was impossible we could go, so as to esta-
blish any thing which would merit the name of civilised
society. We could indeed, I admit, have formed a state of
society founded upon penal statutes, and supported by the
sword or the bayonet, but we could form none which would
bear the slightest analogy with any thing known or ima-
gined under the British Constitution.—(Hear.)—l would
here beg to offer a few remarks upon the observations of
those who declare we are going to destroy the Constitu-
tion. 'I hey who form the opinion that the result of this
measure will be the destruction of the Constitution, seem
to have taken up the notion that the principle of the Con •
stitution is a principle of exclusion. That is not my
notion of it.—(llear.)—On.the contrary, my opinion is,
that the object of the Constitution is to diffuse its blessings
to all classes of the community.—(Cheers.)—lt is an ar-
gument much relied upon by the opponents of the pro-
posed measure of concession, that the present proposal of
Government is an infringement on the Constitution of

sure of Emancipation now in contemplation could be said
to be any remedy for those evils which the Right Hon.
Gentleman so eloquently described ? Without saying one
word upon the subject of the Association, he might assert
with confidence, that as those ills were not caused by the
denial of emancipation, so they would not be removed by any
plan of concession which might be proposed by the Right
Hon. Gentleman, or any other person. lie would call
upon the Right lion. Gentleman and the House, to look
back with him at the history of Ireland, and to point out
any period in which the unhappy inhabitants of that coun-
try were not living in a state of social misery ;—(flear, and
loud laughter)—he repeated in a state of social misery
and actual war—(a laugh)—under every form of Govern-
ment. At all times—before the distinctive names of Ca-

1688. But, Sir, I will not consent to date the Constitu.
tion of this country from the year 1688.—(Hear.)-1 hold
. .

that at that period the best principles of the Constitution
were upheld, improved, and amended. But the Const:tu•
tion itself is referred to a much earlier date—to the law,
and institutions which had been established by Catholic
hands, and cemented by Catholic blood.—(Cheers.)—lt
has been argued by the Hon Bart. (Sir R. Inglis), that at
some remote period disturbance has prevailed in Ireland ;
that dissension now prevails there, and, therefore, that dis-
turbances shall continue. So then we are to infer from
the Hon. Baronet, that discord is to be the perpetual des-
tiny of Ireland, in all future, as it has been in all past pe-
riods of her existence. Is it that there is any thing in
the peculiar climate of Ireland, or in the brave and gene-
rous character of her inhabitants, that should render
her impregnable to improvement, and incapable of that

tholic and Protestant were known there—before even the
rule of England was felt in the country—the people were
discontented and turbulent, anti party spirit and private
dissension produced misery and crime. In later times, and
referring to these periods more immediately within the
memory of those he addressed, were there not Peep of
Day Boys, and Defenders, and united Irishmen, and Sha-
navests, and llockites, and various other parties of insur-
rectionists, disturbing the peace and checking the pros-
perity of Ireland, not upon any question of concession or
not concession, but upon the same general principles of
lawless violence, and habitual turbulence. It was to the
suppression of societies of this kind, and to the punishment
of the offenders, or the removal of the cause which gave
rise to the offence, that the attention of Government ought
to have been directed ; and if new powers were required
for that purpose, ha contended they were not to be sought for
in a measure which not only trenched upon the liberties of

tranquillity and civilization which England enjoys, and
which Ireland has an equal right to,
,and possesses equal
means to arrive at the enjoyment of? I see nothing in the
state of Ireland which should exclude her from the full
possession of those advantages which my own country
(Scotland) has recently reaped from the advances which
she has made in the cultivation of the arts of civilization.
_-(Hear.) And from the opportunities which I have had
of forming an opinion during the period that I held a mi-
litary command in that country, I am convinced that there
is no nation which is more eminently capable than Ireland
of deriving advantage from the cultivation of arts, science,
and manufactures. It only requires the encouragement of
a liberal Government :to afford her the opportunity of
realizing all there advantages ; aye, and in a degree,
to.), beyond the conception of the Honourable Baronet
(Sir Robert Inglis) to form an estimate.—(Laughter and
cheers.) The great evil of a divided Cabinet was another

the Protestants of England, but even went far towards
the total overthrow of the-Constitution itself. Is that Con-
stitution there had been no alteration since the year 1688,
when it was finally settled i❑ its present form ; and he re-
peated, that before they were called upon to make such an
alarming change in our institutions, it ought to be proved
that Parliament hal been applied to and refUsel its sanc-
tion to those measures of coercion or improvement which
he was prepared to prove might have been applied with
success to the evils the Right Hon. Gentleman described.
So much for the Right Hon. Gentleman's reasons, de-
duced from the state of Ireland.—( Hear, and a laugh.) lie
would now take leave to say a f•nr words upon the state
merits with respect to dissensions in the Cabinet. The
Right Hon. lkntleman, when be declared his determina-
tion to support concession, asserted that his ',pinions re-
mained unchanged upon the subject of the danger of that
concession—that, in fact, he retained all his former °in-

point on which much stress had been laid. Upon this
subject it is only necessary to refer to the brilliant example
of my Right lion. Friend, who has wisely changed his
• 'urse of action, when he conceived that change was con-
stent with the service of his country.—(Hear, bear.)-
1 at his change of opinion to that side towards which
I have always inclined.—(A slight laugh.)—ln his change
of conduct I rejoice, and I hail it as the best pledge that
can be given of the satisfactory character of the intended
measure. It is the best pledge that can be given, not only on
account of the sources and opportun ties ot knowledge an in -
formation which he has peculiarly possessed, but also became
his past conduct o❑ this question gives assurance that he will
not consent to any alteration inconsistent with the due pro-
tection of those institutions of his country which it has
been the main object of his politic,l life to cheti.li
and preserve.—(Hear, hear.)—The measure is the result
of the deliberations of a united Cabinet.—( Hear, hear ;