The Sun.
London, England, 1811-06-03 00:00:00

«.-:i~.W..~..

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Chorch cocildbe'ellecied by the Catholics ? W:js it
by their political power, was it by their strength,
or wai• it by their influence ? •In iiiswer to that
ouestion, lie would 3.1401, that the Chereh Eva"
b:ishinents would be destroyed by the very same
means, by the very same arguments,. that 'were
rle9,,xv.etuployod to induce the Housi .to grant t
*sent indulgence. The Right Honourable Geo-
tletuatr opposite to him, who opened - this debate,
and . whose mode of espreSSion was peenharly fa-
vourable to, reeolleetipti, itt speaking Of the psy-
nient of the tithes by the :Roman • Cathofics, under
the present circUmstances, 'saidit was not only un-
just, but was against the canotrof the AlmigLty.
Now he beggeclio ask the,. EiOuse, whether, It the
present indulgence was granted, 'the next claim
would pot be fora pal ileimiion of tithes?. and how
could , rejected Aehen the payment of
tithes fo lhe Established Church, according to the
Right HonoUrable Gentleman's lauguag.:., was
" rvainst, thu cation of the Almighty re 11, in a
Protestant assembly, the Right Honourable, Gentle-
man 1
Could hold such ,Linguoge,,-,1. he .thought it
illegal
io
make a man pay for the support of • the
religious est.iblishmenis 01 a 'religion to which he
did tun belcing,!--and if his arguments were admit-
ted now, he.wish.d to ask, imv those arguments
could be tejeded in future, whin they were brought
torwarAtosUpport still. further . claims ? Did the
Gentlemen on the other side seriously mean to as-
serf, or could the House believe, that if %the It
Roman Catholics scold obtain .their present object,
that they would be satisfied with it ? Was it to he
supposed that -they would .be contented with the
grant of political power ? Couldit be believed: that
their wish for-still further voncessions would be re.
moved by a grant of the pewerto obtain them ?
tie knew there were Gentlemen In the House who
Were prepared to say, that.t he best thing that could
IN done would be to concede every thing, at,
and to surrender the whole Church lstablishment ;
.bet it would he difficult indeed to coosince the
ParliaMent,' or the people, of the propriety' of
zdo,aing such a mensure. The.cons•quettees that
would result fromgrawing the present claims. ap.
peared to him to be oatu al ,Ind inevitable. He did
net mean, to 'say that if they were graniea, they Ca.
tt,elies would be able at once to taunt a majority of
MeMbers of their own religion,to Parliament, burif
the arguments now used were admitted, their,present
advocates would` join- them, and the, irtrelt would
ultimately be the destruclion of the Church .Establiah
Meta, because the same principle .% hich Worild justify
the eone,..ssio'a now .demanded, would compel you to
go hereafier to the full extent of their demands. A
Right Honourable Gentleman on the other side
(Mr. Pensimb!) in endeavouring to stiew.that there
Was no foundation for the alarms that were onto--
1541 yd fur the safety of tho Establialied_Chuich, had
asked him (Mr. Perceval) ilhe were disposed, with
the power attached to the oilicehe now eejoyed, to,
overturo it, how.he would set about it to acconl-
plish its objtht, and whether be thought he could
elleCt it ? In an weir to that question, hp begged
to say, that if bey .had adopted the same course of
argument,. and had maintained the same principW
that that Right Nondurable Gentleman had dune,
and had urged them with succeas to Parliament, lie
should have .very r little .difficulty in. calling
,upon
Parliament to act with consistency, and to go to
the fulf extent to which . these, arguments and these
principles roust naturally lead them., Undoubtedly
it would be itnposSible for him (Mr. Percevai), after.
the language he had held, and the sentiments lie was
known to entertain upnit this subject; to urge Par-
liament Whit any propriety to destroy the esta.
:•blishments of the Church; but to these Whabad
used such arguments ac the Gentlemen on the other
side had 'done,. and who had acted as they bat when
they were in
,power, there, pbuld,exist.no such dd.-
licuitY," because) as he had before said, ,there was
no concession that could possibly be demanded that
could not be justified upon the arguments ash eft
had been brought forward in support 'of the present
claims. lie had been led into .this train of argu.
meat by the Manner in which Gentlemen had
cussed this-subject, and tie hoped. that those who
would rise- to allgWer hill), Would do it distinctly,
and'sheW to the House the grounds uPou Which they
thought that the present demand, if'granted, would
be the last, or elle that they would point oat ,to the
,House how, if it granted the present claim, upon
the arguments now,. used, it could, with consist.'.
rejett the same argunlents, hereafter, when
they were-tilted its favour of farther concession.--
He hoped the Douse would bear in mind the dif-
ference between the, way in which the question was
argued, -and 'on former occasions; it was not now
an application to the discretion or to the, indulgence
of Parliament—it was en absolute chtim of right ;
and it' was said that it ought to be granted in, the
first instance `-and that' conditions might be imposed
in the Conamittee. But if the Recruit CatholieS had
an absolute right to have demands granted, Parlia-
ment, hail nu right to impose conditions. Hewes
led, however, to' ask, .who were the, persons who
called upon Parliament to comply with the rdeMands
unconditionally in the first instance, and who
pledged%theniselves. that the It-hlt Catholics would

rv. cry A L'S Speech on the Petitioll of the NA lko.
111411 t Atiloli‘b 3

The CIiANCMLLort Of the Exonesatratt Said, 'the
.subject then under theconsideration of the House had
been discussed .olten and at such let.gthe chat he
i
shoindeiot enter at large Into tat present. There
were however some observations which had been
triatkeiiethe coinee of the. debate which he could ;tot
avoid noticing, iiut it shouldbe very shortly. He
, Could net help. remarking theenatiner in which the
flint. Gentleman who had just sat down had stated
his sentiments upon the 3eejeee, and he wished to
&wet the aeention of the House to it in a particu-
lar manner. He had adopted. a tone and a style of
language very differeet indeed from those which
the House had been accustomed to hear in' the
former debates opom this subject. He had repre-
' seined -the claims 'of she Roman Catholics of Ire-
land,
,and of 'all the various closets of dissenters
thruugeout the Empire, to a complete exemption.
horn all legal eistibilities, and a lull participation of
political power 'as, uncontrovertible. The House,
according to the Holt. Gentleman, was not called
npoe to grant indolgence,, but to do justice, not to
exercise a constitunonal discretion upon the pro-
priety. of acceding to the prayer of this petition, '
but to pionounce a ju4tuent upon a, claim of
right. He ieaify coutd not suppress the astonish,.
meat he telt at hearing the case argued upon such
grounds, at boatels it avowed, that the petitioners
did not ask for religious toleration, but foe political.
pe et, a';:d not to ask it as alavotif, but to claim it
w I.a right. It would ho absurd in any body or men
to ciditil eolitical power as a right,, but in the pre-
' sent case the ao,urdily was sill greater. Political
_power Ads a trust given for she benefit of the Slate;
fur the protection of all its establishments.. But if.
there.was reason to believe froM the principles and
opinions of any individual or set of individuals that,
lie or the) were eostile to the; establishments of the
State, could it seriously be contended that it Would
be wise to eni tiro that iudividual or these individuals
with the office of pr.oteaing +hose establishments,
whiLlt it was- his or their wish and interest to de-
etrOy I But the proposition was still more absurd
'wheel it ,salt asserted that the claim so exercise this
' important trust was nut to be discussed upon the,.
geoUnds of constitutional discretion; but that it must.
at . conceded .as a right. lie begged
.to be.
understood, that he. was. now arguitig. the questien.,
upon the of right : .whettier the letitioriers
Would or, w uld met, destroy the esteblishmeper. Ot
the Sia e, if inveeed with political power he, could
not uretertakeee say ; he. was merely endeavouring,
to she •w the aWur ity of the proposition that their
had a - right to :be itivested with the pos-er of de-
streyiee the Eeablisheteuts of the State. He was
quite sure aro grciutel. of,.argetrient would not
seriously he aeepied by the Gentleman who sup-
ported the claims of the Pelitionere. , It the Peti-
turners had' a right to demand a.compliatice ww ith
the .grayer of their petitieo, why there. was an end;
,of the (option ; their,c;aiin 'Must he,granted. But
it Par iiaiticlii was to exercise its discretion.upon the
then it bec.iirle nice spry to consider how
. ttlevalious inter, sti oh the State Would be affeeted
by a eeimpliatice. eoh the Petition. He begged lease
to disclaim many of the sentiments and feelings
which had been atiribited to litn in. the course of
the debate) he that he ewe, tamped any opl-
, itiurts that Were liivounablr: to intelerencs. or perse-
cution : DO wan cuold he more. willing to went re-
: :)igloui freedom iii I tic fullest sense of the word,
that, tie was. but Geolleillctl,tiad•inaulged in clog=
mewed stateitieots, amid had described the slate of
the Peiitioners in Enrage which the faete of the
.case wutips tiet warrai,L. The Right Hon. Goatee
-nein Who opened the debate, had described the situa-,
thin of the 141 Roman Catrealies eloquently, bUt
cc, taiuly inaccurately; lie said if the R enae Cathie.
lica were poor, mere they not entitled to liberty
why, who asserted that ,they were
,not ? Who ever
tit eireiturel that the Catholics,' whether rich orpoor,,
tvere not f ,Ily etnnfeil to civil and religious liberty?
It hal bee, lohineeted that I.e entertained semi-
seetes Ineeale to the Iteinan Catholic ; to this
'he begged pi:11.04 to give I leetnost unequivocal, de.
i lie bid never retteefed in the slightest degree
Lytton the cliaraaer ;or upon she loyalty of the.
tholics of Ireland, Iliraigb sentiments of .that hind
Fel tie knew, for the purpotie of misrepresentation,
u attr2hui ed to bins, but he lied dune that which
tic coliteiee tt tube his dety t 9 do he had endea-
voured ro &hew i he.
.dangerous consequences.that
would ensue'froM a compliaiice with time demands
of lee Petittoners. Au Gentleman on. the
( Ilt,T ,ido of the. House, in speaking of the number
of .lash Roman Cattiol4:s in the Army and Naiiyi
leid stated lett tbn teritiedeevett-tentlie of our sof-
d:crs arid sailors, lie believed this statement Was,
Very itiocti exJt;),,,e4trtd, but it it, same true, it de.:
'strop d one of the ligr!itnents which the.supperters
of the Catholic. claims were perpetually urging. ,
Tease Getufe.ncii ss ere constantly urging the House
to curio ly wish !he claims of the Celielies, because

,is WOLlid liVitite,:t Ihe members of that communion
to after the naval attd rntlit;ay setrick., but if it
were tree, Sliethu Gentleman had ai,terted,
that :;calash-tentint of our Army Navy were
Irish Itunvm C4tholici, it wai hardly to be, expect..
ed titlit -compiiripce with the ploy et of the petition
would hicreatie the propos tion. The Gentlemen en
the side were perpetually'cootrafiding thtin-
sels el upon tuts subjeat : at one time they contend.;
ed that by the tcligteus reorittions which cxisted,the
&we was deprived ut tile services of the Irian Catho-
lics in our fleets atndarnaivs, and the vety next moment'
they boasted ot the tintiNntitt numbers and oi the int.
portant ,et s ice; ut the It ish :soldiers and sailors. 'Wu!,
the linter pith of lite statt-tileathe Wa3 Intl)! ‘.44,-
poseJ to agree. 'I here was no man it, the rtbuse,
to in the country, who ettertained a bigilvr oi
01 the Ind!) sok, en, or sAilore titan he kat.

---
atterwards 'agree to such conditions as might be
thought proper for the security of the listabdshed
Church ? The.. Right Rondurable Gentleman op-
posite ,to him (Mr.,Grattatt), when he introduced
the. Roman Catholic Petition on a former occaiipu,
decialett that he thought the Veto was an indis-
pensable cOndition, and he pledged ilittudf that the
Irish Catholics would cheerfully concede it, end the
other Gentlemen who on that -occasion supported
the, Petition held the same hug-nage. The Right
I lonourahle 'Gentleman Who spoke last but one, ad-
mitted then that the alarms that were entertained
for the safety of the Established Chuteh would be
well foutided, if the hewity of the Veto was not
olnained j bin he, too; said, 'the
,Catholies would,
have no objeCtion to grant it, and he quoted the an..
thority Dr..Milner upon the subject,. whe was
then soMuch the God of the idolatry of the. Geo.
tlerneu on the other ssde,-tbat they were quitiin-
dignant at.any attxtnpt to quo stion his knowledge of
t opininiis of the clithoUe Body. And )et what
was ine to 2,:Whyi the notwithstanding
all the pledges of the G,Aolcti),:ll on the other.
side, and all the assertions of Dr, Milnpr, refused.,

ever weis to L t Xpecteci Ismik Zeal, aCtivity, rev lip
mid Courage, Was to be expected troci the. 16411

soldier 4;,/I.olfor, it V./JO tilt therelol6 bveause he

toteit:siocd tioiavourablii opinion of the C.:iitho.

lie% of irewOci, or th,,c fir Wit au), Witile St!;1111:Itlit8

towards ipetu, mat hi! oi,policti o.eir vlailmi.; he op-
ppso m 4 d Lim,becathr htt eoticet,e(i Oat 11 'they were
granted owd toad to the deblriv:tioll of the Esta.
Churci, ii) it l.tuti. Toe Right lionburobie

A chest of superb 46y-litien was 1.14 month
ot.wdaie I from trwotta to, by the Eindrehs
Am4tria, kr the berme of the youlig
LIAM).

LON!)()N : I-Mk 1(1S, or No 4 Mai,titat.t.,,kut, bow
; And kJ:Wish:4l dY V I L INM `ARVII3'E 'S6ur• Mull
at thi S in;"0 FPI C No. Straia4, where 4dvertilemenis. Order:, for the P apor S. Lettitrs For tot: asior arc; (post.paicr,.ibt
. -

.

g cnii:4,,,n, .04 e,..*, ur„,.. ilif. House to,
rant oehettlititrifi of -thieCartolits*uricondilionatlyi
upon their pledgeirtrtite Citholics wouli,l shares
wards agree to any L'Orrittitilitililiht thiglif)bi 64ce.alrry
for Ihe . hecor ity of thelyabliairtirl Church I A, Noble.'
Lord, who had upon- the occasion that be was a6_,
luding to, taken an se.live part in stivport of the .1)e-
-4hien of the ItintiateCritholiei, and to whose opt-
nions he coulthiregulurly,veler,•because ,theytWere -
upon record, (Lord •_Gretiville)„ -had exeleisly, 4e-
dared that he considered the Pete as,,a43li9.dispq•n-
-n sableeonditio, and had Stated, th it bdtit ho and Mr.,
Pot - seed,, always, been :of ,opinion tha the , rteittrier.
140, or some condition that was equivalent to ii,,
, -
was absolutelyinefessary. :But all those Statements,
all those opiniorectere now' fergotten,, the Pete:
was no barfgeritecigsary, nay, the very Gehtlernen,
who bet
~a.litt,le thee ago asivi led that the-Velo3vbas
an terns pensable coecli!ion tie- the seeprity,ok cite
Eiianlished Church, now forw,rit even to mention
u /.:!..,•lliiiiesiie umnitialiOn too, whiCh Lid been
imentenied as.a secthity.when itiwai loutkeibar the
itoinan.Catholies would not agree to the Velo,twas
ime; also forgotten ; in snort, nothing but ab!,(!lute-
Unconditional I:6llCeSSioh tvoirld h'ilisty theft). `!'he
Hoo, Gentleman, who lipoke'lasi (Mr... Smith), bad
even declared that liii ears were utletided eitte the.
word " -toleration," becat.se it excit, d the idea 'et;
bigotry : Such 'W-tocthe facility %k 1111 Whit ii tileiiell.y!
deafensoti the ots'er side changed then opinions,
At one thee the Vela w as, ..absoto tely kvegisay): tor'.,
tile security of the Eitahkshed Church ; at another'
time it was nut worth'rnentiontng; twit v.iii.utter the
Vela wee greeted or reltlied,,these GAiiivinfAl were-
equally ready to soppiirt tf,ie Catholic. P,iiiion.. ; He.
begged, however,. not to be tresite-eisioud, he t)y
no nteafts rtieinit'tblay that I t't he .iilo.Were granted
his ouje.liou, would be remoV4tl ; he had always,
stared his opinion fairly, ried 'dist:holly rOpeo Iliii'
stl'ijed ; he thought that the claims 01 lite, Peti.•,
stoners could nut .be gratn,ed with salty to 'hi' E+ta-..
blltitted,Cliurcit, arid therefore he telt ii to be his
duty to oppose the in. His sentiments , had never
Changed, but the orteon of the Gentlemen
~en the.,
other side had tuerergoue a complete revolutien ;-
after having shewn tear they 'Were toliktitutirited
with the aoritintent*of Ihtt,Rut»alV Cithoiks; tt ey
now asked,the House to give 111;:,:li .credu for!a per-
fect knoAlet4,e of . tbo feelings and wishes of that:,
holy, afro li,efirle' declared that' the 'Esiabliihed
Church could nut be effectually secured wit iii,lit•t be
Veto, they now asked Parliament to giant the P'-'
talon without that security, and they now loud yi,'
accused those of hig?tr,) airdpersecetion who i -
I
slated upon that very condition which lily them-
selves,but 'it little timeagO te.-presetti- ea' is - itidillyn-
„sably neeessary,l •,,kie, had been- accuvert of ' luitstith SS
and intolerance;, this .wactin -accusation .which, be,,
Urtii most An/11011S to deny,' because he felt
.thi4 !it
was unjust. He was as warn, and as steady a 'friend
,to religious toleration as. any' of Odic 'whir 'lt'd'
• thrown on t insineatiens, .against: him ; ; Wit it•;was..
religious toleration, and nut the toleracipqot.tre-
' dent • philosophY .of whieli he was the advocate. ~ He
Aliad seen trial-the-loudest advocates 'retieill'a'Aitra.
itiOn of miaderu ploilbsophy, wereiirvebeit,they had.
the power, the most intolerant perAeseters..4z the
commencement of the French Ittvulution, ibe4e.
modern Philosophers declairtiedieudiy and elcqutni-
.ly in favour ,oi perfeet religious treedoin.,..- tireiy§xere'
listened to,.and the Bstablislred Cptpcti wasideotroy-
ed, and its Ministers underwent le, st&rest and
-moot cruel •• per secu I ion' kern ' those''ua dviictii es 'for
unlimited .toleration and univetsitt titrilanflirbpie-i--,
There was ane other point upon which he wished
, to ..tnake a 4 few . observationeti'before'ilititiAo H 0..
Those who supported the claimeof AlerSe Petitiohet'S
seemed to think thaLthey were getting neater to
the accoMplishment of their objeeti
:but he Was;
convinced that they 'deceived themselves ulpouthrit
poiot,4-the nearer thoy;aqmidat.,,,'in Their .own
opinion, to the attainmedr df their objet}; the
greater would be the—ditficulties the! would have
to encounter. Gentlemen must not •StiPpirse that
becatise- -the people, were tio*k'qUiet'„'ond did 'dot
come forward to express their opinions 1-esptting
~the...obje6liolehis Petition,: thet tfrey-would'remarn
equally quiet if they thougheit had any chaired -of
success. The people-were-quiet', because they rested
1 with:. confidence upon- the Wistionlbf 'P.irliainent;
but, if-,,once- they .thouget there- way ground for
alarm, they would loudly expre 3 tlicirsentitrienta
:When, some time ago,. he enn.nl:tined•da Ortliarl
that the Church Wasin danger, I:tirl exineSsk'd that
opinion, Gentlemen mutt rernember wellifiV t`6f}l.6t
it produced. He • should tie tow,,perlitirß, iiiat lie
had excited an,utifitunded- alarm, that he lead e:xage
gerated the danger, that be !red mri-stated the faLisi
but even if that were true,- still the etre& N.virs the
same; whether the danger was 'real or nor, still
Gentlemen could not' have 'forgotten 'the elfee.-t it
prodaceduponAtie public tnind. The same conse-
quences .would again, follow; whenever the danger
again approached, • He wished 'therefore that Geed:;
tlemen should not deceive theniselves or other's by'
indulging expectations Allot they were near the at-
taint-nem of , their objeet. He' wished them nat'to
suppose that because the people' Were Ittret' when
they knew there was 'no danger, that ifieywouid
remain se' it they were cenvieicetil ha' it really ex=
isted. At the period Ao which -he' i‘V its ' all udi ng , the
apprehensions of the public Were very great; thy
had,,,it was -true, •subsided;; but it was because those
by whose condual those apprehensions weievexcited
were turned out-of power. :He therefore Mr it to
be !Us _duty to warn the House not, to suppose Uit.
because the people, thinking they were sale in the
hands of Parliament, had not openly expressed their
sentiments upon this subjett,.it was one upon which
they were catelecs and indifferent. _lf at any-future
time Parliametit should, eontrary to his expeetation;
feel disposed to eopply 'with the prayer of this Pete,
titer, he hoped it would take care to ascertain; , slid
to ascertain accurately, the public opinion, before it
adopted any definitive meesure. i He. ht ped it would
not go, rapetly to work.: but would cowl ,ear well and
&limy betere A. i a a-epipd a measure, ' which, if coti-
ciliition was .. its otriett, might 'prote 'on apple of
discord. . . '