The Sun.
London, England, 1827-03-17 00:00:00

mode of signing the Petition an assumption of supremacy over
the diocese of Waterford, which appears extremely improper, which
ought not to be allowed, and which did not exist in law. He did
not doubt, if the Petition were withdrawn, and the parties were
to designate themselves Roman Catholic Clergy in Ireland, that
the Petition would be received.
The LORD CHANCELLOR was not sorry to
have that opportunity of stating, that he was no enemy to re-
ceiving petitions from any persons, if they chose to address them
properly to the Houses of Parliament, and draw them up in such
a style as the Members of Parliament should approve of. In
the present case it was his duty, as a servant of the Crown of
Great Britain, not to allow any man to style himself, in the
British Parliament, Bishop of Waterford, except the Protest-
ant Bishop. It was the principle of our Church, and the prin-
ciple of our law, that there could be only one Bishop of one
place ; and he could only acknowledge the Bishop of our So-
vereign, and would acknowledge no other. If the respectable
person who had signed the petition would designate himself a
Roman Catholic Prelate or Bishop in Ireland, he should not
object to receiving the petition ; but it was not consistent with
his duty to the Constitution, his duty to his country, and his
duty to his Sovereign, to allow any Petition to be received there,
signed by a person who could not exist in law.
The Bishop of NORWICH withdrew the Petition.
On the motion of Lord ROLLE, the petition presented by the
Bishop of Norwich against the Catholics was then read and laid
on the Table.
The Earl of DARNLEY could not help lament-
ing that his Noble Friend (the Earl of Winchelsea) should, on
his first political appearance, have shown so much zeal and energy
in what he (Lord Darnley) could not but consider a bad cause.
He called it a bad cause, because he was perfectly convinced, that
if his Noble Friend, and those who thought with him, continued
to oppose successfully the just claims of the Catholics, they would
succeed in convulsing this great empire to its centre. He could
not but regret the strong language which had been used with
respect to a man of transcendent genius, who had long advo-
cated this great cause with distinguished ability, and who, he
trusted, would continue to advocate it until it should be finally
successful. But he would not refer to living authorities; it
should be recollected that Fox, Pitt, Burke and Grattan, the
greatest politicians, who had never agreed upon any other
question, concurred in supporting the measure which his Noble
Friend opposite so warmly deprecated. The ill-omened rejection
of this meaeure was undoubtedly calculated to induce the people
of Ireland to consider the country to which she was united, ra-
ther in the light of an enemy than a friend. He trusted that
this consummation would not take place ; he trusted that
better feelings—feelings more in unison with the Christian
charity so eloquently recommended this night by the vene-
rable Prelate (the Bishop of Norwich) would prevail in that
country. He did not absolutely despair, though he confessed
he was not very sanguine in his expectations of hearing his
Noble Friend opposite argue, at some future period, for the ex-
pediency of Catholic Emancipation, with as much zeal as he
DOW opposed it. As to the number of petitions against the mea-
sure from the county of Kent, he (Lord Darnley) was not at
all surprised that so many had been presented, for nothing could
be easier than the way in which they were got up. It was as
easy as lying. A paper was drawn up containing the usual
common-places about Church, State, and Constitution, with a
few allusions, perhaps, to the Pope, the Pretender, Bloody
Mary, and Guy Fawkes, and this document was carried about
by the Clergyman of the parish, who prevailed upon every
body who could write to sign it. In one instance, the Clergy-
man of the parish (we believe, the parish of Cuxton), charged
with a petition of this description, happened to take it, in the first
instance, to an honest tenant of his (Lord Darnley's), who occu-
pied 400 or WO acres of land. The farmer said it might be all
very right, but he never signed any thing he did not under-
stand. " Not sign it !" exclaimed the Clergyman, " why
surely you won't suffer the bloody Papists to get power into
their hands, and burn Prottatants at the stake again ?" The
farmer persisted in his refusal, and was equally impracticable, when
the Clergyman wished him to get his wife and children to
sign it. The Clergyman was at last obliged to go into some
neighbouring brick-yards, and get the petition signed by as
many labourers as could write. It was absolutely absurd to
attach any importance to Petitions got up in this manner. It
bad been, inquired of those who had succeeded in putting an
extinguisher on this question, what they meant to do for Ire-
land ? His Noble Friend opposite answered, that they meant
to convert the Catholics to the Protestant religion. If such a
selteoae were practicable to any extent, no man could be more
desirous than he (Lord D.) was, to see it accomplished, for
he bad a had opinion of the tenets of the Roman Catholic
Church, though he did not think that the Catholics •ought to be
excluded from an equal participation in civil privileges, on ac-
count of erroneous religious opinions. But to suppose that
above five or six millions of Catholics were likely to be con-
verted to Protestants, was really a most extravagant notion;
and if there were really a prospect of effecting their conver-
sion, then he should contend that this was an additional
argument for granting Catholic Emancipation ; for no one
could pretend to say, that a persecuted set was more
likely to embrace Protestantism, than one which was ad-
mitted to the common benefits of the Constitution. The
Noble Lord adverted to the language of the Resolutions re-
cently adopted by the Catholics at Dublin, which was charac-
terised by great moderation and discretion. They expressed a
feeling of regret at the vote which rejected the just claims of
seven millions of his Majesty's subjects ; they recommended
peace and forbearance, confidence in God and in the justice of
their cause. They recommended their Catholic brethren not to
give way to despair, but to await the course of events. The in-
fluence of the Catholic Clergy in the late elections had been
complainer! of ; but there had been no proof of any unconstitu-
tional interference on the part of the Roman Catholic Priests.—
They bad undoubtedly a powerful moral influence over their
flocks ; they felt their increased moral strength—they knew the
justice of their cause—they saw how they were supported in this
country, not indeed by numbers, bet by intellect, and every thing
that could make a cause respectable. The ultimate suthat cces
summer
s of that
cause was as certain as cause and effect—as sure aS
follows spring ; sooner or later Catholic Emancipation must be
granted; and the only question was, whether Parliament would
grant it as a boon, or he compelled to concede it under the pros-
pure of national calamity.
The Duke of BUCKINGHAM held in his hand
several petitions praying for Catholic Emancipation. The first
was from the Roman Catholic inhabitants of the county of Ros-
common. , He did not mean, in introducing this petition, to fol-
low the example of the Noble Lord (Winchelsea) ‘by discussing
the whole question of the Catholic Claims, nor the example of
another Lord, who had occupied a considerable portion of their
Lordships' time, by causing several petitions to be read seriatim,
.witiela were word for word the same. There were many reasons
why 11 onllateral debate of this kind was not one in which the
great question of Catholic Emancipation could be conveniently
discussed. It wag utterly impossible in a debate like this to settle
this great—he was sorry to be obliged to call it—this terrific ques-
tion. He should not enter into say part of the discussion, except to
notice an observation which had faller from the Noble Lord who
opened it, who had brought it forward es et charge against the
Roman Catholic Clergy, that they exercised a purely spiritual in-
fluence over their flocks. If the exercise of a purer), spiritual in-
fluence over their flocks was a clime, he wished to God tat the
e
same complaint could be made of our own Clergy. He should b
happy to believe that no influence was ever Used by the Protestant
Clergy in questions of a political nature, but that their influence
over their flocks was purely spiritual. He trusted thee the earliest
opportunity would he taken of affording their Lordships the
means of coming to a decision on the great question of Catholic
Emancipation. He said this, not because he wished for a debate
pa this question, but because, in his opinion, nothing could be ,
elOce mischievous than that the people of Ireland should believe that
thei? friends despaired of the cause, and that Parliament had shut
its ear. *Oast their claims. He could not at the present moment
look forwai7l with hope to the success of the question
theme wasr what
had occurred id the ether House of Parliament;
but
near at hand when this question must be carried, and it would
depend upon their Lordships to decide in what spirit it should
be carried. The arts of Man might for a time raise barriers
against it ; attempts might be made to check Om progress of rea-
son through the land, but the currenti of knowledge eed intelli-
gence could not be arrested by the work of human hands. The
tide of human reason could not be kept back, but it depended upon
man whether the current should take such a course as to fertilize
the land, or spread ruin and desolation around. Many rejoiced
at the decision of the other House of Parliament, but believed
that few men of sound statesman-like opinions participated in their
triumph. The decision was a subject of triumph to those who
did not wish Ireland to look to the Imperial Parliareent for
union and support. The triumph was felt by those who wished
Irelas to believe that the Parliament of England was deaf to their
claims, end that they could look only to the ravings of seditious
demagogues for the redress of their grievances. By rejecting the
claims of the Catholics, Parliament was delivering Ireland into
the hands of those demagegues--it was sacrificing Ireland at that
altar. A question involving the liberties of seven millions of people
could not be put by according to their wishes or caprice. It was
vatterly impossible that the present state of things could last. In the
same of God theos as the danger was thus imminent, as it pressed so
immediately upon them, why pot settle this question in the only way

in which it could be settled, by embracing the offers of Ireland,
and admitting her to a participation in the benefits of the Consti-
tution ? Ireland offered us every thing we could require ; she
offered us allegiance, she offered us affection, she offered us attach-
ment. If we rejected her offers, there were many on the alert to
tell her that our professions were false and hollow, and that they
were the only friends by whose efforts she would be saved. By a
seasonable concession to the just claims of Ireland, we might save
her from those who were luring her to destruction—we might
restore the tranquillity of the country, and secure the allegiance
and attachment of seven millions of people.
The Bishop of CHESTER could not forbear no-
ticing an expression of the Noble Duke who had just sat
down, which seemed to call for some animadverson from the re-
presentatives of the Protestant Church. The Noble Duke had
stated, that the Noble Earl who presented the petition from
the county of Kent, had imputed to the Roman Catholic
Priests as a crime the exercise of their spiritual functions. The
Noble Duke had entirely mistaken the meaning of the Noble
Earl. The Noble Earl had not imputed to the Roman Catholic
Priests the exercise of their spiritual functions as a crime ; but
he had argued that the tremendous influence of the Catholie
Priesthood was a very powerful reason why the Legislature
should not entrust power to so many millions who were sub-
jected to it. The Noble Earl did not say that they were not at
liberty to use the legitimate influence which would follow the
faithful discharge of their high and sacred functions ; but he
argued against the abuse of their sacred trust, and the misappli-
cation of their influence to political purposes. He (the Bishop
of Chester) had no hesitation in expressing his belief, that in the
late elections the Roman Catholic Priesthood had taken down
polished arms from the armoury of Heaven, and employed them
in carnal warfare. Such conduct had never, he believed, been
imputed to the Protestant Clergy, except in a single instance,
where a Protestant Clergyman had invited his congregation from
the pulpit to sign a Petition, and this single instance of miscon-
duct had met with perhaps a merited rebuke from that House.—
The influence of the Priesthood in Ireland was a very powerful
reason why the Catholics ought not to be entrusted with political
power. Ireland was the most unenlightened country in Europe ;
and political power in the hands of a body of artful and designing
men—though he did not mean to include the whole Catholic
Priesthood in that description—might be employed to the worst
of purposes. This brought to his recollection a remark of the
Noble Earl (Darnley) which called equally for animadversion.—
That Noble Earl had thought fit to speak in discouraging, if not
contemptuous, terms of the efforts to diffuse the light of the
Gospel among the unenlightened population of Ireland. He
thought he saw the finger of God in the recent conversion of so
many of the Catholics of Ireland, and woe be to those who
should presume to lift up their hands and voices in vain and im-
potent attempts to stern the flood of light that was bursting
over the country ! If these efforts were continued in a spirit of
gentleness, wisdom, and zeal, they would bring down the
blessing of the Almighty, and the good work would go on to
its consummation. -Ile could not sit with patience, and hear a
Member of the Protestant Church speak contemptuously of these
efforts. Day by day, the tide of reformation seemed to be rolling
on—gradually, indeed, as was to be at first expected—with sure
and certain progress. He could not avoid expressing his indig-
nation, or rather his pity, at the language which had been used
in the other House of Parliament. He could not but lift up the
voice of expostulatioP, if not of reprobation, at those who desig-
nated the attempt to convert the Catholics of Ireland as a cru-
sade. A crusade, indeed, in its true sense, was not in itself re-
prehensible; its object was to plant the standard of the Cross in
regions of darkneis. But the term had been applied in a dispa-
raging and reproachful sense. Was it a crusade which Luther
undertook? Were those who. embarked with him in that glo-
rious enterprise crusaders, in the sense in which it was meant to
stigmatize the humane and charitable attempts which were now
making by a man not less distinguished by his piety than conspi-
cuous for his rank? Ile begged their Lordships' pardon for hav-
ing thus trespassed upon their attention, but the observations
which had been made this night really seemed to him to call for
some animadversion.
The Earl of DARNLEY said the Learned Pre-
late had noticed an observation of his, for the purpose of misrepre-
senting it. He put it to the House, whether he had said any
thing of which a good Protestant need he ashamed. He had
stated that he should be extremely glad to see the whole population
of Ireland converted to the Protestant faith, but ne was not so
sanguine as some others were on this subject ; and he maintained,
that if there were a prospect of their conversion, it would furnish
an additional argument for Catholic Emancipation, inasmuch as a
persecuted sect was less likely to be converted, than one admitted
to equal civil rights and privileges.
The Bishop of CHESTER maintained that the
Noble Earl had treated the attempt to convert the Catholics" of
Ireland as a visionary scheme.
Lord CLIFDEN thought that a great portion of
the population of Ireland would have long since embraced Pro-
testantism, had it not been for the existence of the Penal Code.
The Duke -of BUCKINGHAM then presented
petitions, praying for Catholic Emancipation, from the Counties
of Roscommon, Westmeath, Armagh, and from the town and
neighbourhood of Kinsale. The petitions were laid on the table.
The Marquis of LANSDOWN presented similar
petitions from the Catholic Inhabitants of Lowth, and of Man-
chester and Salford ; also from Protestant Inhabitants of King's
County, Wexford, and the town of Warrington.
Lord RODEN presented a petition from the
County of Tyrone, signed by 22,000 persons, against any further
concessions to the Roman Catholics. He could not but lament
that the question of Catholic Emancipation still continued to divide
the opinions of his Majesty's Government ; that it should be thrown
as the apple of discord among the people of Ireland, to produce
still more animosity and irritation. The system pursued by the
Government of Ireland was childish in the extremt was cal-
culated to increase and perpetuate the discord whie ; ich distracted
that country; it had drawn down the disgust of the Protestants
and the contempt of the Roman Catholics. He was aware that
this was strong language; but he felt strongly on this subject, and
his experience as a resident in Ireland entitled him to use it. The
time was near at hand when his Majesty's Government would be
forced to take some part or other ; and to decide whether they
would maintain that Protestant Constitution which their ances-
tors had lived and died to support, or sanction a Popish Domi-
nion, and a Popish Supremacy. It was impossible for things to
remain in Ireland as they were ; but it was, in his opinion, equally
impossible, consistently with the safety of the Constitution, to
suffer Roman Catholics to legislate for a Protestant Church.
—lt had been openly stated by the Roman Catholics, in
their Association at Dublin, that they looked upon their
admission to the two Houses of Parliament only as the
first step towards the acquisition of further power. He
denied that the Catholics of Ireland were persecuted ; and if
tyranny existed in that country, it was the tyranny of the Ro-
man Catholic Priesthood over the minds and bodies of the Ro-
man Catholic population. He trusted that that tyranny would
be at , length overthrown by the influence of the glorious refor-
mation which was now going on in Ireland—a reformation which
had, indeed, been designated as the vilest chimera that ever
entered the mind of man, but which he (Lord R.) consider-
ed the work of God, and the effect of the preaching of his
unadulterated word. It had been said, that the refusal of the
Catholic Claims would drive Ireland into rebellion ; he believed
no such thing; but much as he should lament' such an event,
he would rather risk it than admit Roman Catholics to legis-
late for a Protestant Government. If he were asked whe-
ther he was .satisfied with the present state of things in Ire-
land ?he should answer—No ; because the Government of
that country was, in effect, no Government, and its measures
were caicnlated to aggravate instead of allaying the evils under
which that country laboured. He had supported the mea-
sure, which had been somewhere called the Algerine Act, the
object of which was to put down Seditious Associations. The
effect of that measure, however, had been to put down Associa-
tions in Leland calculated to protect the laws and government
of the country, while the Catholic Association was still exist-
ing in all its mischief, and pouring its venom ever all parts of
the country. No real attempt had been made to put it down ; the
Government was either intimidated or infatuated. They had
heard, indeed, of a prosecution against an individual for language
used by him in the Convention. Mr. Shiel had been prosecuted
or persecuted, while his prosecutor had presumed to use language
in mother place, much more likely to promote discord in Ireland.
—The existence of the Catholic Association in Ireland was an in-
delible disgrace to the government of the country.
The Bishop, of' NORWICH said the Noble Lord
complained of his having asserted that the people of Ireland were
persecuted. He had said so, and he said it agLn, and the Noble
Lgive him leave to tell him what his idea of persecu-
tionHe had been taught in early life, by men of far greater
ability
the Noble Lord, that every disqualification, even re-
°r
w woulda
st h. a than the
striction, every inconvenience even to which an individual was
exposed on account of his religious opinions, was in its degree
persecution.—(Hear, hear.)—This being his opinion, the Noble
Lord could not complain of his considering the Roman Catholics
of Ireland as the most persecuted people on the face of the globe,
The Earl of CARNARVON maintained that the
persecution of the Roman Catholics in Ireland did not differ in
spirit from the persecution of the Greeks by the Turks. He had
beard with astonishment the declaration of the Noble Lord (Roden)

that he would rather.see an actual rebellion in Ireland than consent
to the adoption of conciliatory measures. He was satisfied that if
Parliament persisted in rejecting the just claims of the Catholics,
they would repent of the course they had taken, and resistance
might come when it was too late not only to conciliate, but to
save the country.
Lord CLIFDEN observed, that great changes had
taken place in the Roman Catholic religion. This was a fact
which he should take an opportunity of proving to the satisfaction
of the House on some future occasion.
The Earl of DARNLEY presented petitions from
several Parishes in the County of Meath, and from the County of
Drogheda, praying for Catholic Emancipation.
Lord MOUNTCASHEL presented a petition
from a Parish in Londonderry, against any further concessions to
the Catholics.
The Duke of LEINSTER presented a petition
from Kildare, praying for Catholic Emancipation.
The Army and Marine Mutiny Bills went through a Com-
mittee, and were reported.
The House adjourned at Eight o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, MARCH 16.
Lord CLIVE presented a petition from Wood-
bridge Market, against any alteration in the Corn Laws.
Mr. BELL moved for a Return of the number of
Game Licences issued during the last year.
The Hon. Member presented a petition from Northumberland,
against any alteration in the Cern Laws.
Sir H. PARNELL presented a petition frOm
Carlow, against the Importation of Flour.
Sir T. ACLAND presented a petition from South
Molton, praying Protection for the Landed Interests.

POPISH INROADS.
Sir B. MARTIN presented a petition from Ply-
mouth, praying that our happy Constitution may not be exposed
to Popish Inroads.
Sir W. ROWLEY presented a petition from a
person, whose name we could not learn, complaining of having
been subjected to various punishments, in consequence of brawl-
ing in a church-yard in Suffolk, and praying for a Repeal of
the Law.

Sir T. GOOCH said that nothing could be more
riciculous than the Law. It subjected the offender to having his
ears cut off, if he had any, and if not, to be branded with a rod
hot iron.
Mr. V. FITZGERALD presented a petition from
the Catholic Inhabitants of Kilkenny, and another parish in the
county of Clare, praying for Catholic Emancipation.
The petitions were read and ordered to be printed.
Lord MILTON presented two petitions—one
from the Merchants and other Inhabitants of Halifax in Yorkshire,
in opposition to the Corn Laws—the second, from the Manufac-
turers of the town of Bingley, in the same county, against the
Exportation of Machinery. He was bound to say, that in this
opinion he differed from the petitioners, and in presenting the
petitions he was only the organ of the petitioners sentiments,
without concurring in them.
After a few words from Mr. DUGDALE,
Mr. HUME expressed his regret that such preju-
dices as these existed in the minds of the manufacturers of th►s
country against a free communication with other countries in the
export of machinery. He hoped, before the close of the Session,
some measure would be introduced for the free export of machinery.
After a few words from Mr. CALCRAFT and Mr. LITTLE-
TON, the petition was ordered to be printed.

COUNTY OF WATERFORD ELECTION.
Mr. S. RICE presented a petition from certain
Freeholders of the county of Waterford, tesante to the Marquis of
Waterford, complaining of the base calumnies that were sent
abroad to the detriment of themselves and their clergy. They
added that it was not true, as stated, that they went to the Mar-
quis of Waterford, with tears in their eyes, to entreat his pardon,
alleging that in voting against their landlord they obeyed the threats
of their clergy.
Mr. GEORGE DAWSON said that these peti-
tioners complained that he misrepresented them. He did say that
475 of the Marquis of Waterford's tenants came into his Lord-
ship's hall with tears in their eyes, praying forgiveness for having
voted against Lord George Beresford, and that they were in-
fluenced by their priests. This assertion was not contradicted by
the. potialonoro. who: were only 26. •
Mr. S. RICE observed that the petition was op-
posed to the Hon. Member's former statement.
Mr. HENRY GRATTAN contended that much
greater threats were held out by the Protestant Clergy than the
Catholic, in the county of Westmeath and other places.
Mr. CALCRAFT said, the Catholic Clergy need
not take any further trouble to contradict the affidavits produced
by the Under Secretary of State for the Home Department, as
they were, as far as authority could go, already contradicted by
the Attorney-General for Ireland.—( Hear, hear.)
The petition was ordered to be printed.
Mr. FITZGIBBON presented a petition from
Croom, in Limerick, for Catholic Emancipation.—Laid on the
tab)e.
Colonel DAVIES gave notice that he would, on
Tuesday next, propose a mode of taking the poll at elections for
cities and towns.
Mr. H. GRATTAN presented a petition from
the Hibernian Assurance Company, praying fof a reduction of the
Duty on Assurance Policies.—To be printed.
SHIPPING INTEREST.

Mr. SYKES presented a petition from the Ship-
owners of Hull, praying for an alteration in the Navigation Laws.
The petition was signed by 200 persons ; and they were not only
great in numbers but in wealth, or rather had been wealthy.
They collectively were owners of shipping to the amount of
80,000 tons. But their property was now diminished in an
alarming degree. He was in favour of a free trade, but he was of
opinion, that trade ought to be free in other respects, before it was
free to foreign shipping.
DENBIGH ELECTION.

Mr. SON presented a petition from F. R.
West, E psq.,AiNrel:ting to the petition presented against his election
for the above borough, but as it was a petition of considerable
calling the attention of the House to its prayer on
importance, he proposed (in order to give time for considering the
matter),
Monday next.
wYNNE could not see how the petition
could be receive& inasmuch as the petitioner asked that his name
might be substituted for that of Mr. Ablett, there having been a
double return for Denbigh, and the subject being now under the
consideration of a Committee.
The SPEAKER said that so much of the petition
as required the substitution of one name for another, could not be
received. As to other 'natters, if it contained any, it could be

received. I
After a long desultory conversation, the petition was withdrawn.
Mr. BIRCH presented a petition from the Ope-
rative Sawyers of Nottingham, against the use of Machinery.—
Laid on the table.
Mr. HUME presented a petition from a Commit-
tee of the working class of Blackburn, to which he begged to call
the attention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, praying that the
proposed grant of 9,0001. to the Duke of Clarence might not be
made. The petition also prayed for a reduction of taxation,
by which alone they could hope to be relieved from their diffi-
culties and distresses.—Laid on the table.
Mr. HUME moved for a Copy of the Address
transmitted to this country from the Council of Upper Canada,
and of Lord Bathurst's Answer thereto, respecting the clearing
reserved lands.—Ordered.
Mr. BERNAL presented a petition from the
Council of Assembly of Montserrat, describing the low condition
of that colony, in consequence of the heavy imposts to which it
was subjected, and particularly by the 44 per cent. duty, and the
high war duty of 275. per cent. on sngar.—Laid on the table.
The petition was then brought up, read, and ordered to be
printed.
Lo
MielleArsSoffßlelEfasitt, Epryng
AaGiH presented a petition
from the Millers
for a protecting duty on Fo-
reign Flour to be imported into this country.—To he printed.
Mr. ALEX. DAWSON, in presenting a petition
from a large body of Freeholders of the County of Louth, praying
for a removal of the disabilities under which the Roman Catholics
laboured, took that opportunity of shortly expressing his opinion
on that important question for which the petitioners sought. The
petition, he said, was signed by more than 4,000 freeholders.—
Such a petition, he conceived, was deserving the attention of the
House in a greater degree than those petitions which came from
interested ecclesiastical bodies. Without the just claims of the Ca-
-1 dailies were granted, be was sure it was idle to expect tranquillity

in Ireland. The Hon. Member then brought up the petition,
which was laid on the table, and ordered to be printed.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
moved that the House, on rising, should adjourn to Monday.
PROVISION FOR THE DUKE AND DUCHESS OF
CLARENCE.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
moved that the House resolve itself into a Committee on the
Bill, to enable his Majesty to make further provision fur their
Royal Highnesses the Duke and Duchess of Clarence.
Mr. J. MARTIN, before the Speaker left the
Chair, had a question to put to the Right Hon. Gentleman (the
Chancellor of the Exchequer), the answer to which might pos-
sibly induce him and his friends not to oppose this Bill. In the
Session of 1825, a Bill was introduced into the House
for granting 6,0001. a year to the young Prince of Cumberland,
for his maintenance and education. This Bill met with consi-
derable opposition, and the House would, perhaps, recollect that a
clause was afterwards inserted in the Bill, that it was highly
expedient his Royal Highness should be educated in this country,
and the payment of the 6,0001. a year was only granted in case
he should be so educated. The object that he (the Hon. Mem-
ber) had in rising to propose the questions which he was about
to put was, in order that he might govern himself as to the steps
which he should take in the present Bill. Now he wished to
know whether or not the 6,0001. a year had been paid ? whether
or no his Royal Highness, the young Prince, had resided in this
country ? and if he had not, from what period his Majesty had
directed the money to be paid, and what were the sums paid un-
der the sanction of that Act? If it should appear that his Royal
Highness had had the 6,0001. a year paid to him, and if it should
appear that he had never been in this country, then he (Mr. J.
Martin) had no hesitation in declaring, that the House had been
deluded in the passing of that Bill.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
—I am extremely happy in the prospect of having the support of
the Hon. Gentleman who has put the questions to me, with re-
spect to the present Bill before the House, from the answer
which I have it in my power to give.—(Hear.)—l have to state,
that in point of fact, of the annuity of 6,0001. granted to his
Royal Highness the Duke of Cumberland, not one farthing has
ever been paid.—(Cheers).
Mr. J. MARTIN said, that the allowance to his
Royal Highness the Duke of Cumberland was 18,0001., and from
the list he perceived, that in January, 1825, there was an item of
21,0001. charged to his Royal Highness. This, he thought, re-
quired some explanation.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
said that the sum named by the Hon. Gentleman had accrued ;
but, in fact, it never was paid. His Majesty had never thought
fit to oblige the young Prince to reside in this country hither-
to, and consequently the allowance granted was never required.
On the question being put, that the House resolve itself into a
Committee,
Mr. HUME thought it was too much to come and
ask for 9,000/. a year in addition to the large sum which his Royal
Highness already received.
Mr. MABERLY did not think it was just, nor
right, to bring forward the distresses of the people in a question
of the present description. He was as desirous as his Hon.
Friend (Mr. Hume), or any Gentleman in that House, to have
them removed. His Hon. Friend had certainly a right to ex-
press his opinion on the subject, but he should not bring forward
those topics which, in his (Mr. M.'s) judgment, had nothing
bearing upon the question before the House.
Mr. TENNYSON thought that the Royal Family
in this country should be in some degree dependant on Parliament
for their income. He was desirous of seeing them live in the
splendour befitting a great country like this. There were cases
in which the Ministers had neglected their duties in not providing
for members of the Royal Family. The ease of the Duke of
Sussex, was one in which the Ministers of the time had neglected
their duty in not providing him with better funds to maintain his
exalted rank and station as a King's son. It was a well-known
fact that his Royal Highness married h lady of high rank early in
life, when he was about the age of 21, and that his late Majesty
was not advised by the Ministers to make a suitable provision for
him until his Royal Highness was 30 years old. He was na-
turally involved in vast expences, had a settlement to make on
the lady to whom he was united, and the consequence was, that
he was much involved in debt. When he received the 18,000/.
a-year, he very generously appropriated half that sum to
the discharge of the debts which he had been compelled to
contract early in life, and the fund thus established would
in the course of a few years be ample to pay off every six-
pence which was owing. When his Royal Highness married, he
did,not even receive the usual allowance which was, granted to
other members of the -Royal Family. When, it, was considered
that his Royal Highness was a subscriber to almost every bene-
volent institution in the country, it could not fail to be a matter
of surprise how be was enabled, with so very limited an income,
to contribute so extensively to those establishments for which this
country was so famous. With respect to the grant under dis-
cussion, it had his entire concurrence.
Mr. PENDAR YES was inclined to consider that
the grant was both untimely and prejudicial, when the table
was loaded with petitions complaining of distress and taxation.
Mr. W. SMITH could not give a silent vote on
the question before the House. The sum of 9,000/., he was
ready to admit, if divided among the people of this country, was
a mere pittance not worth a consideration, but the grant was pro-
posed at a time when distress prevailed to such a degree, that the
country would be apt to infer there was no desire of retrench-
ment.
Under the present distressed circumstances of the country,
it was incumbent upon the House to be as prudent and econo-
mical in the expenditure of the public money as was possible.
Mr. LEYCESTER considered the grant no more
than a proper tribute of respect, and public approbation of his
Royal Highness's conduct, for he (Mr. L.) was not one of those
who entertained that absurd and demoralising doctrine, that
character and conduct should not be at all taken into considera-
tion on such occasions.
Mr. MONCK thought that if the Hon. Member
who had spoken last, had succeeded in proving any thing, he
had proved too much, for if the Duke of Clarence was entitled
to this 9,000/. on the grounds urged by the Hon. Gentleman,
a fortiori, 90,000/. a-year would be a more adequate provision.
But he (Mr. Monck) considered this whole proposition unrea-
sonable and unfounded.
Mr. CALCRAFT—With respect to the present
grant, he (Mr. Calcraft) had already expressed his opinion upon
it, and he saw no reason to alter the sentiments then avowed.—
If we were to have a monarchial Government, we must of ne-
cessity support the members of the monarchy in a state of suitable
dignity, and the present grant, instead of being unreasonable,
appeared to him (Mr. Calcraft) the most moderate that his Ma-
jesty's Ministers could, under the circumstances, have proposed.
Mr. MONCK explained.
The Right Hon. W. C PLUNKET'r could not
conceive, that when his Royal Highness was placed in the situa-
tion of Heir Presumptive, he would not be subjected to increased
expenditure, and require an enlarged allowance to meet that ex-
penditure, and he (Mr. Plunkett) was sure that there was no man
in the country, however humble his condition, or however he
might feel the pressure of the times, whO would not support the
necessary dignity, and keep up the fair establishment of
con t the
branches of the Royal Family as cheerfully as they would ri-
bute to any other public disbursement.
Sir T. ACLAND would vote for the present mea-
sure, because he conceived that the Ministers would not have done
their duty to the Crown, and that House would not do its duty
to his Royal Highness, nor enable his Royal Highness to do his
duty to the country, if a reasonable supply were not afforded him
to meet the necessary expenditure of his station.
Mr. BEAUMONT objected to the breathless haste
with which this vote was carried through the House in the pre-
sent distressed circumstances of the country.
Mr. Alderman WOOD objected to the grant,
as an unnecessary tax upon the lower orders of the people, on
whom all the expenses of the Government ultimately fell. The
Worthy Alderman was proceeding to make other observations,
but he became quite inaudible in the Gallery from the loud cries
of " Question" in the House. Finding himself thus interrupted,
he turned towards that part of the House from which the cry
principally proceeded, and said, " You shall have the question
whenever you like, but not till I please."----(Loud roars of laughter. )
--He added, that he would not be placed in the situation which
they had heard of lately—he would not he put down by clamour,
nor would he suffer the supporters of this measure, like the agri-
cultural interest, to have it all their own way.—(Hear, hear.)—
He had never interrupted any man in that House, nor would he
suffer himself to be interrupted.—(Hear, hear.)----He opposed this
grant, because there were thousands of poor men who would have
to pay for it, and because every pot of beer or every glass of gin
they might otherwise drink would go to contribute towards this
increased allowance to the Royal Duke.
Mr. Alderman C. SMITH denied the position of
Mr. Alderman Wood, that the money would come out of the
pockets of the lower orders ; and supported the grant as both mo-
derate and necessary.
Sir R. HERON felt it to be his duty to those who

sent him there to oppose this grant, which seemed to him unneces-
sary, improvident, and extravagant.—(Hear, hear.)
The House then divided on the question, whether the Speaker
should leave the Chair, when the numbers appeared to be—
Ayes, 99 ; Noes, 15 ; Majority, 84.
The House then went into a Committee.

Mr. W. SMITH did not object to the sum pro-
posed, but to the principle on which the measure was founded.
If any thing ought to be granted, the sum now proposed was rea-
sonable enough.
The Bill then went through the Committee, the House re-
sumed, and the Report was ordered to be brought up on Monday
next.

WIDOWS' PENSIONS.
On the motion of Mr. CROKER, the House went
into a Committee on the Widows' Pension Bill, and the Report
was ordered to be brought up on Monday next.

SCOTCH CREDITORS. -
The Scotch Creditor's Bill went through a Committee, the
House resumed, and the Report was ordered to be brought up on
Wednesday next.
POSTPONEMENT OF BUSINESS.
On the question that the Second Reading of the Irish Public
Works' Bill be postponed until Monday,
Mr. HUME begged to be informed why public
measures were put off in this unaccountable manner? The effect
would be to occasion so great a pressure hereafter, that the busi-
ness must be done negligently and very late at night. There
seemed to be a complete dissolution of all the functions of Govern-
ment, from some cause or other. Perhaps the inferior Members
of the Cabinet were waiting until a new Prime Minister was ap-
pointed.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HERRIES could speak as to the measure the
postponement of which he had proposed, but no further. It was
a Bill that related to Ireland, and he had been particularly re-
quested to defer it for a few days, in order to ascertain whether it
would not be fit to introduce some alterations.
Mr. Alderman WOOD was quite ready to sit and
discuss public business until twelve o'clock, at least ; and he saw
no reason why it should not be brought on in the regular course.
The postponement was then ordered.
ANNUAL DUTIES.
Mr. HERRIES proposed the second reading of
the Annual Duties Bill.
Mr. W. WHITMORE was willing to postpone
such remarks as he had to make upon the measure until it was
committed, provided that stage were entered upon at a sufficiently
early hour.
The Bill was then read a second time, and the Committee upon •
it fixed for Tuesday.
STIPENDIARY MAGISTRACY IN IRELAND.
Mr. VILLIERS STUART called the attention
of the House to the appointment of a Stipendiary Magistrate at
the village of Kilmacthomas in the county of Waterford, under
the provisions of the Constabulary Act. The facts were within
a narrow compass, but the question was one of general import-
ance ; it was not a Waterford or an Irish question only, but it
touched the rights and interests of the whole empire, and the sta-
bility of the Constitution itself. In March, 1826, the late Go-
vernor of Waterford called upon the Magistracy to take into con-
sideration certain outrages at Kilmacthomas. Opinions were
divided, and the Magistrates separated into two parties, although
both agreed that the disturbances arose out of the spirit generated
by the eve of a General Election. On the 3d of April, the first
intimation was given of the intention of the Irish Government to
appoint a resident Stipendiary Magistrate. A Meeting was held,
and it was there carried by a small majority, approving of such
a step ; but the dissenting Magistrates sigaed a Protest, declaring
that it was unnecessary, on account of the peaceful character of the
County, on which it was inflicting a heavy burden. Very soon
e which
by
that tthheey
High
the w e
subject
ue
She-
riffb ej e
em-
afterwards, a letter was received from the Right Honourable
Gentleman opposite (Mr. Goulburn), announcing that the ap-
pointment had been actually made. On the 12th April, a County
Meeting was held, and Resolutions, strongly disapproving such a
bodied,
o edsef werecourse,
Waterford. aged r
presented re
An
A ton ;
intimation
mhd
the Lord
oottrdwu Memorial,
t in
Lieutenant,
hn given,
should be taken into immediate consideration. Seven months hav-
ing elapsed, and no answer being returned, the county naturally
felt indignant at the disrespect with which it was treated ; and
despairing of Justice from so motley a body as the Government of
Ireland—(hear, hear,)—a public meeting, under the authority of t
the High Sheriff, was held on the 14th Nov., when the petition to
Parliament with which he (Mr. V. Stuart) was entrusted had been
agreed to. Such were the brief facts, and the House would not fail
to recollect that the meeting of the 3d April, which took place at
Dungarvon, was on the eve of a general election in a county which
it was known was to be contested. At such a time, when it be-
came the Irish Government to close its ears to all party represen-
tations, it had thought fit, listening to the representations of
one party and deaf to the remonstrances of the ether, to make
the appointment of a stipendiary Magistrate, as a mere mock-
ery of and satire upon the administration of justice. The ob-
ject seemed to be, to counterbalance the popular feeling
at Kilmacthomas. Had robberies, murders, the burning of
houses, and villages, the midnight seizure of arms, been com-
mitted in that district ? No : and the House would hear with
surprise and indignation, that at the moment chosen by the
Irish Government, the County had been free from every
thing that could be fairly called disturbance. On the approach
of a General Election, no doubt there was a certain degree of
excitement , some foolish old women, not certainly as wise and
prudent as the Right Honourable Secretary for Ireland, had fur-
-nished children with a few faggots for bonfires, and drums, and
the abomination of penny trumpets were in request among the
younger inhabitants ; but only in two instances had the peace of
the district been at all more seriously disturbed, than by these
juvenile processioners. Even those two instances were deemed of
too trifling a nature to need further inquiry, and the calendar af-
forded the most irrefragable testimony of the general tranquillity
of the county. No doubt the Right Honourable Secretary would
contrast the state of the county of Waterford at such a time,
with the calm and quiet of the Archiepiscopal borough of Ar-
magh, which had the good fortune to have him for its Representa-
tive. But such unanimity could not be expected in all parts of Ire-
land, and if the Right Hon. Gentleman himself had never stood on
the popular interest, the Lord Lieutenant, before he was exalted to
the Peerage, had had some experience of the violence of party &d-
-ing during a general election. It could not be said, that such an
appointment was necessary from the want of resident magis-
trates, for within four or lye miles of Kilmacthomas, there
were as many Justices of the Peace, ready at all times to discharge
the duties imposed upon them by the Commission. As matters
now stood, the county W 8.3 called upon to pay 8001. a-year for an
individual to reside among them, whose interest it was, for the
sakeof
House keepingin
his place,
to produce disturbance. —ln order
to put the ion of the necessary information upon
this subject, he moved for copies of Memorials presented to the
Lord Lieutenant from the county of Waterford.
Mr. POWER seconded the motion in a very few words.
Mr. GOULBU Pt NT observed, that, whatever com-
plaints had been made against those who had, at different times,
administered the Government of Ireland, this was the first time
that a Lord Lieutenant of Ireland had been blamed for adopt-
ing the measures which be was authorized to take by an Act of
the Legislature. The Lord Lieutenant was bound to do every
thing in his power for the preservation of the peace, and this
was all that he had done in the present instance. He positively
denied that the appointment of the Stipendiary Magistrate, of
which the Honourable Member had complained, took place on
account of any personal regards ; and the Honourable Member
could hardly refuse to acknowledge that he himself had always
been received by the Lord Lieutenant with every mark of respect
and kindness. But it was well known to all, that, during the
late election, the County of Waterford was in a state of the highest
excitation, and that the effects were not confined, as the Hon.
Member seemed disposed to persuade the House, to the beating of
drums, and the blowing of penny trumpets. It was known that
parties of 20 or 30 persons were often on the eve of coming into
actual conflict, and that a magistrate could not execute the simple
process of a distress for rent without calling out the police of the
county. As for the expence to the county, he had only to say,
that it was much better to pay seven hundred pounds a-year to
an active Resident Magistrate, than to pay much larger sums as
compensations for losses and damages which might otherwise
occur. It must be obvious, that this mode of precaution and pre-
vention was the most humane course that could be adopted with
respect to the people themselves. This was the conduct which
the Irish Executive Government had pursued, and in that conduct
that Government was, to say the least of it, fully justified.
Mr. H. GRATTAN contended, that the appoint-
ments made, and the orders sent by the Government, were most
unconstitutional.
continuation,been highly said, t that
the proceedings The SPEAKER remarked, that the observation
House.
Nrc. eH. GRATTAN,
of
the Govern m
was irregular, as there was no question about a Bill before the
.:n
nnt
had
unconstitu-
tional ; for they had established a Police with watch-words and
challenges, resembling an armed force ; and such a system, if per-
severed in, would prove the destruction of Ireland.
Mr. LOTT (Member for Homton) was surprised