The Sun.
London, England, 1842-04-06 00:00:00

VMC
• ;asked why leave out London? It was very true the averages
al London were higher than those of the other fifteen maim-
'. eeeturing and commercial towns. No doubt London was the
the of speculation ; but the fact was chiefly caus-d through
eee ivality of the corn consumed. But it was not ne-
ioerY, to exclude London, for if the metropolis *ere
in-,:ued with the other fifteen towns, the difference
, 4e range of prices for a long period would be very incon-
rable. He had eompared the averages of the sixteen ma-
ifeat_tming tovvns with those of the fifteen agricultural towns.
100 47. d taken eighteen periods, having three periods in the
• theiLne of April, August, and December, for six years. In
the ti:eare 1833, 1834, and 18:35, the averages were low ; in
DuringlYears 18:;9, 1840, and 1841, the averages were high.
-«e last three years, the prices in the sixteen commer-
th tQwes were higher than in the fifteen agricultural ones,
!tough this was not universally the case. For ten periods the
reerages were high in the 16 commercial towns ; in seven periods
they were higher in the agricultural ; therefore the notion of
Ben. Member, as to the effect of including London, was
;1 f a
nerY• He could assure the House, that the selection of
Ztowns had been made without the slightest reference, direct
gerindireet, to the nature of the districts in
which the towns
Zere taken ; and these had been taken, not with any intention
. their parts of unduly influencing the returns ; their only.
Art had been, to range over the different districts, so that
Y might insure returns from the various markets sread
vMr.y. the country. p
tv
-.AWES said, that the Right Hon. Gentleman had
tivegtlo answer to the statement he had made, that the num-
,,nrd towns selected from the districts which grew the finer
of wheat was not proportioned to the number of towns
~;en grew wheat of an inferior quality. He repeated that
assertion; and he believed that the result of such a system
th'uld be unduly to lower the averages, and of course to increase
e dutY. He did not, however, throw out any imputation
•nst the Government; and he did not mean to say that they
11"td emlninfluenced by any improper motives in the proposal they
fir E. KNATCHBULL made a few observations which
Very imperfectly heard in the gallery; but he was under-
; .ve to say that the election of towns had been made upon the
%lest principle.
VI% G L ADSTONE explained.
to -Ir• VILLIERS said he could not understand why these
Cms hal been added. According to the Right Honourable
arories . . .

syst et opposite, scarely any fraud existed, and under the old
lc ens it had been altogether exaggerated; according to the
sAist Hon. Gentleman, the Vice-President of the Board of
Qale, the addition of these towns would produce no material
4(17' Where, then, was' he use of the alteration now propo-
Sf :,--(Hear, hear.) He believed, however, that the effect
the ", alteration would be to lower the averages, and
the Presumption therefore was, that it would also have
lb Moo of raising the duty.—(Hear, hear, and cheers. )
itight Hon. Baronet did not attribute any evils to the old
ti 11,(1 .-":11e had said that it was not the cause of the distress—he
Y,. had 'aid that he did not profess to expect any benefit from the
'IW• All the Hon. Gentlemen opposite had said that the
thtet of the law was to leave the protection as it was. Why,
Vefore, did they seek to add fresh circumstances of doubt?
ttirl4,l ot merchant would enter into the trade until he had ascer-
ih
ii,e what would be the effect of the new law? How could
eY expect anything like regularity of trade until the effect of
44' alterations should be ascertained? The old law had al-
l: ofY produced mischief enough without adding a further cause
()• S.,,`nsehief to it. He should support the motion of his Hon.
.4167;11Is for doing away with these towns altogether, and. alsoi the
"" of his other Hon. Friend, in order that tne public might
Ife'e an opportunity of judging of the effect of the measure.
Ist, was at a loss to conceive how the opposition to the
motion could be justified. The Right Honourable Ba-
il`" had said that his objection to the motion was, that
ktr,()uld revive the oiscussion on the whole subject next year,
1/411 Right lion. the Vice-President of the Board of Trade
, said that it was desirable, in the legislative settlement of
th'reat question, to introduce such a measure as should settle
tiOntstion at once and finally. Now, those expressions ex-
(ist'led a degree of simplicity that he had hardly expected from
hear men. on the other side. He had hardly expected to have
itr'id this Corn Bill, which the Government had assured the
teet!ultural interest would not diminish one iota of the pro.-
t,„l°,n—he had hardly expected to have heard this Bill denomi-
(if° the great legislative settlement of a disputed matter.—
k",r, hear.) Did the Hon. Gentleman suppose that the
t,"P'e would be so imbecile as to cease from agitation in con-
ie`tieuvtice of this Bill ? On the contrary, they would only agi-
i" a ten-fold degree—(Cheers)—until they had obtained a
repeal of these laws.—(Cheers.) What (lid the present
the !ire amount to? It amounted to an acknowledgment of
is;
.Principle for which the people had all along been contend-
te;. Last year they had been told that the old law was per-
the,e"--that it had worked well. They however continued
is agitation, and this year an alteration had been proposed
s, "e law. 'That was a concession of _the principle ; in fact,
I•l'Ything had been conceded except a substantial change.
Rtet:,e"uld not be consideredlegislative settlement of a
the question, for the people would never cease to agitate until
so.7est principle which had been conceded should be fully
I,e'd out, and the law be totally repealed. The only reason
the("lie could imagine as inducing the Government to oppose
tk_ on of Hon. in°tl Friend was, that they must have a doubt
rt their minds as to what might be the result of the addition
tho*i?ese towns. If they had no doubt on the subject, why
hutki thee oppose the motion
the ,"' HARDY said it appeared to him that ite reason of
the being added was to prevent fraud. By increasing
tio,",°lllher of the towns, they increased the sphere of opera-
der .`"r those who might seek to practice fraud, and thus ren •
is very very difficult, or wholly impossible, for such persons to
un their fraudulent practices.
en ,r• LA BOUCHERE said, that the House having decided
the'""Pting the principle of the sliding scale, it became, from
to,:.°, °Merit of such a decision, only desirable that they should
I,l,ctuet the system of averages so as to guard as far as pos-
tikh. ,against fraud. He (Mr. Lab.mchere) thought that the
lid.' Hon Gentleman, the Vice• President of the Board of
ref", its referring to what the Hon. Member for Lambeth
the Itil(1 on this subject, had not dealt quite fairly with what
'4,1°11. Gentleman had said. The Right Hon. Gentleman
the You justify fraud ; you say that fraud is a benefit to
hiet,s°"sumer." The Hon. Member for Lambeth had never
the that fraud per se was a benefit to the consumer. What
ki"qoourabl•s Member said was —" That under the
4r•"e*, system of Corn-laws the operation of fraud,
Of hpi°en that system gave encouragement, had had the effect
Ne,:t4liwg into the market fereign wheat at prices at which,
th'. oliter circunistauees, it could not come into the market."
11'rea't sense the lion. Gentleman had said that if they ren-
that frauds less practicable they would injure the consumer ;
the tnass, that they would prevent foreign wheat coming into
the lisa,tkets and thus injure the consumer. He must say that
41'ef " the table appeared to be free from many of those ob •
Its In which the firs list as hable:; but as far as reared
11011:Netical
operation,t therew was I/0 very great differgencde.
tp,""er, anything that could be said on the subject must be
of P'elisrist, and, for his own part, he would prefer the opinion
es t," intelligent corn-dealer on the subject to the opinion of
Ray „lember of that House.—(Hear.) When the subject
his,',,rst. discussed in that House, he stated that lie had been
sR'-.,4"4
1 by persons on whom he could place reliance, that the
St` tisenew towns would be to influence the ad
documents
mount
'tstsdtable,felt bound to acknowledge that he had over-
'Led a.v'e effect.—( Hear, hear.) He did not think the adver-
taY th:j4l4es could be .affected to that extent, but he must also
Teem n„°" was by no means convinced that the averages
ilbe-r-f` be affected. It was remarkable that till the Hon.
,i Pe's, °r Sussex said that the averages wonld not be affected,
isle 4 on both sides of the House, whether belonging to
Lioneuffriettltural or commercial interest, whether the
""tetiaule Member for Lincolnshire, of the Honourable
Lt'ONttr o
for Smersetshire, who had epoken on the
the whole, therefore, in the position in which he stood, if
°° hs"°•Friend the Member for Malden should divide the House
ever; inntion, he should feel bound to vote for it. But what-
tttsr,°,l4se he might take on it, he hoped the Right Hon.
ith, e'••vsoold do this, that he would allow a separate account
u're 4tvrages to be kept in the towns where they had hereto-
,lle, :en taken, and where they were now proposed to be taken.
st"seki ,was no difficulty in doing it, and by that means they
wolo J'e enabled to judge of the oeration of the system. It
ss."(lt, of course, completely meet the case, but they should
llsecTat teas the working of one of the elements from which
,PPreherided that these effects might be produced.
ORSLEY thought that, taking the averages in these
Ptis:"°lls would not produce the effect the Right Hon. Baronet
Atta-IP'ted, in preventing fraud. He thousslit it would make
441i,L,flure difficult—( Hear, hear)—inasmuch as three or four
"'a'tivals,
t'"uals, who by getting stooks of wheat, and selecting per-
41s,k make sales of them, over and over again in different
kiseets, had affected the averages, would now have to employ
4'44 °Rents. Fraud could be rendered more difficult, but
:tee, 00t be absolutely prevented. He did not think that the
:sere of taking the averages in these towns would be to lower the
Neile by 2s. though there was a general impression among far-
* set
-tuat it tvo'uld do so. He believed that the farmers considered
:eites,lale of duties not sufficiently protective, and, therefore,
anything that the considered would secure them
tstpieulotection. But he should. not be doing
.his duty ahem
tut
• be the'itt,isal Member if, there being not a sufficient protection
11:11(1 fanner, he aVempted to gain it by anything like a side-
-11%1 e did not place much reliance on the fact of there
ZiGuildfordaaturg towns and fifteen agricultural.
tts t 1 gave an higher average than Liverpool, but
t le Wheat of Guildford was of the finest sort, used by
etie
thee
.hers, while the return from Liverpool included the in-
tirtsh wheats. There was not a fair return from these
kists °t
,*s• He would vo in favour of retainn the towns,
Ith.e i would make thete Bill better, though iti wgould not cure
t jeer evils he complained of.
'sal' t HOWARD was also in favour of retaining the addi-
-14 qr.
s(- s:kt 5,.-I;LDEIIS did nut intend to divide the House on
-118.'1611; but he should certainly divide upon the subject
tikUtik '4e 29th clause came under the consideration of the
Ilt9lr.'
°l4
s, ^0 LIONBY said that before the discussion was
kwe " h
, wished to ooserve, that the admission formerly
sisr;si .at frauds had been committed, seemed nov• to be
S'''s sii" by Hon. Gentleman opposite. He could net con-
tl grounds of that alteration of opinion, and he did not
st ts that
reasons had been assigned for it. In his opinion,
114 4e:re many inconveniences inseparable from the system
ev:,ages, and he bslieved that the only remedy for
IktiNs's would be the adoption of a fixed duty.—
'es rho' He had reason to know, that in the neigh-
terosses' of Carlisle, there had been a difference in the
i af from 35 to JO. He now wished to ask the Right
th,-40net to what extent he thought the amount of collect..
ktra,l4 reterns might be reduced by the alteratiens which he
Vs„ Fehr and how he expected the addition of so many
would affect the returns ?
tt 41i ~FEEL sail that it would be difficult for him to say
th:7 lis,6"t• be the extent of the reduction of the expense ot•
ti t% A the averages under the new system ; but he had
Oa !" think that they would be collected by the
Idid I.°r a less sum than the present amount.
ay knot deny that frauds had been committed.
Ises-tVere, certainly, great frauds committed uoder the old
11,,,srss: kid it was difficult to say to what extent frauds may
414",; ,Perhaps he should not call them frauds, but cam-
lisi4n °r
heededspclations, with regard to corn, for the purpose
al.t.
Kt so ctteman opposite seemed to suppose , but by the ad-
-44,1) a 0 towns he thought that frauds, though not corn-
- isS4lisosevented, that frauds of two kinds would be prevented—
loll' tile rtlthe purpose of raising the prices of corn and.diminish-
ti 4 50401,Y, and frauds for the purpose of diminishing the
tsti%t.stist raising it when persons had large stocks on hand.
114 In it kIY that the Hon. Gentleman was not strictly cor-
keit stni,'l4,ing that the price of corn must vary with the port.
*,stit grea, show him that the price of corn in counties 7
kliss'ites producing counties—was higher than in
rot' Prudeeing the best wheat.—( Hear, hear.) In
th,-,e(3 Which were free from the influence of foreign
is ice titer
would be higher than in those places wh:cti
uetter wheat. He thought that the price in Leices-
;:,!le.' ts,„be higher than the priie in Essex or Kent. The
Ills Isis' "umber of towns, the greater would be their influ-
t,hsit'etsse Places where corn was imported ; Hid the greater
14t ;t town" of inland towns, the more would the influence of
4i d.'" which imported corn from Scotland and Ireland,
f.41,-(;1J: -;* The morethose towns were diminished, the mere
istesiseA -°fluenee of the others be increased. If the Hon.
k'44 wanted fully to carry out his principle, he ought
e'4-• er, that in one of the towns the old method of taking
'stA, 'aitNtei' should be retained. The Right Hon. Gentleman
tif that one of the causes tending to produce a lower
tPet 4'ere-ge would be the employment of excise
14(e-rs• sstake the averages instead of the corn In-
Nis her
Honourable
in order to carry out his prin-
.' the onourable Gentleman ought, in addition