The Sun.
London, England, 1829-04-04 00:00:00

John Bromley Foord, David an,'
Chester, silk-broir

...... John Drakeford, Man-

Lunar& Dutton and John Overbui y, Basingliall-strzet,
wool-merchants.
John Wilson Neil and Thomas Clow, Islington, varnisl -
.rianufacturers.
William Cobham, jun., Charles Cobham, Dlward

Thos Allfrey, and Thomas Cobham, Ware, Hertfordshire,
barge owner.
Stephen ,Philpott and Chas. Darling, Ramsgate, bathers.
Edward Fairclough and Josh. Aspinall, jun. Redcross-
street, stone-merchants.
Thomas Wainer Gibbs and Henry Wyndham Gwyer,
Bristol, maltsters.
William Taylor and John Walter, Strand, tailors
William Blount and Isaac Dobell, Derby, chemists.
James Hall and George Oldfirld Needham, Nottingham,
Grecian-net-manufacturers.
William Henry Winch and Frederick William Clarancr,
St. Martin's-le-Grand, cheesemongers.
James Simpson and James Smith, Strand, cutlers.
John Miller and Robert Ferguson, Glasgow.
George Maunder and William Maunder, Exeter, Neon-
shire, factors.

illiam Culverwell and Thomas Culverwell, Walcut,
Somerbetshite, builders.

Henry Kerbey and Henry Brabam Hall, Tottenham-
court-road, Middlesex, poulterers.
Ammo Tebbtitt and Wiliam Weld Wren, Old Broad-
street, London, attorneys.
Jams, Heston and Dunbar Gibson, Liverpool, pawn-
brokers.

EX PRESS EDITION.

BIPERIALPARLIAMENT

HOUSE OF LORDS.-(THIS DAY.)

The doors of the House were opened at half-past
Twelve o'clock, and strangers admitted, before prayers
were read (an unusual circumstance). The crowd was
not great.
The Duke of WELLINGTON entered the House a few
minutes before One o'clock, and the LORD CHANCELLOR
precisely at one o'clock. The spice around the Throne
was, as on the two former debates, crowded with Peeresses
and Members of the House of Common..

The Bishop of CHESTER having real praye:s at ten
minutes past One o'clock,

RESUMED DEBATE.

The Duke of WELLINGTON moved the Orier of the
Day for returning the adjourned debate on

THE ROMAN

CATHOLIC RELIEF BILL

The Earl of GUILDFORD rose, and far some minutes
teas inaudible below the bar. When we could hear, we
understood his Lordship to say that those laws which it
was now proposed to repeal were made to defend the Church
against an intolerant state of the people. If they are now to be
overthrown, what is to become of that Church ? We may
construct a ship and turn it adrift without a pilot, and
which may be driven from place to place, a perfect
wreck, yet still a ship. King Charles thought pro-
per to protect the Church by the laws then made.
He apprehended that there were laws for the regula-
tion of every important thing from the earliest time.
James the Second was a promoter of religious liberty,
end the reason why the laws were well enacted,
was well described in a letter written by the Prince
of Orange. It declared it necessary for the safety of
the Church, that certain laws should be enacted and con-
tinued for ever. He drew a distinction between the pen. I
statutes and the exclusive laws. He also highly approved
of the exclusion of Papists. The tight of the Catholics
could only emanate from the King, though their faith told
them that their poWer was derived from the Pope. It
seemed from this, that the King could confer power and it
was one of the first laws of self-preservation to exclude those
from its jurisdiction whom it was unsafe to admit to cower.
At the Revolution it was considered it would not be safe
to admit Catholics to power. It was said that in all othee
countries contracts of this kind were implied, but in our
country it is express. All power was dissolved in the
absence of the King, whose authority was the key-Orme,
and ought to he the key-stone, to the arch of all solid legis-
lative enactment. Now, King Charles made this law, that
the people should not be in danger of having their Constitu-
tion subverted. In one of the earliest debates on this sub-
ee. ct it was urged whether there was a contract 'existing
with the King. The Magna Charts was considered an
irregular contract. It was maintained at the von-
vesrtiou there had existed certain laws, secured to the
people by contract, which al Kings in succession had been
hound to maintain. He would ask, could any Parlia-
ment, or any Ministers have a:lvieed any King to nullify
Magna Charta? The convention proceeds to rectify Magna
Charta; the Bill of Rights contains a confirmation of what
took place in the reign of Jam re 11., and then there were
made two positive laws : one to exelode Catholics,
and the other in favour a them. Now here I eta
maintain that this Bill brought into this House
is an infringement of the 13i!1 of Rights.. It may be said
that the Bill was not so in express teems, for it never had
been so stated. But after the convention, after the Bill of
Rights, after the King hall been set upon the throne,
he said in his first speech to Parliament a new settlement is
necessary. The Parliament then proceeded to exact the
new law, not only a new Coronatio4 Geth but this oath
of Supremacy according to the, precise toms
the declaration c..f rights. The Act ales cht
-
of 7e;:iog Charles the Seceod, del lease
elusion of Papists frane ll'arlierareae Mr the ex-
this was recanted,
and to stow: the 4'44 w'..i.r. which it was, as POT)
ae Dingg came to this country a law was
11 • atli
wildiaEyt
made, ut'':;ding to Ireland, to exclude Papists from the Par-
-1;e-anent
anent there. There was another law expressly providing
Mr the placing of a Protestant King upon the Throne of
the country, and a parliamentary as well as a regal seeu-
thy was required. Upon this subject the Nettle Lord on
the Woolsack said that King William changed his opinions
since the letter written by his order, but he thought that
King William's own words were a better authority than even
the words of the Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack.
When King William came down to this House requiriee
the abolition of the Sacramental Test, to which this bolls.
did not agree, he said I doubt cot that your Lordship,
will sufficiently guard, agairret Papists, though honest, you
will leavo soon for the admission of all r aoteetants.---
It was no lees evident that such ak contract existed fa-nor
what the Speaker of the house of Commute 'said to his
Majesty after the Cormeation. 1 R add"
. sling
his Majesty
he said,, "-Pelay the Cm3titui'l.-on of the country he no
longer dated from the
time of Edward tha Confessor, but
fe°l-11 ttatlth'...es of William and Mary."' This proved there
' ~ as a contract by which his Majesty was bound to secure
all the fundamental laws of the country, as he found
them. Upon the death of Queen Anne, the Assembly of
the States General consent d to acknowledge the Elector
of Brunswick, provided they were to be governed ac-
cording to the laws of Englarel ; upon no other terms
would they grant him their ellegiance.—(Hear, hear,
hear. ).---It was evident that the States General waaa
interested in no other laws of England than those wh

concerned the Protestant State. Then who.
laws 7 He had already drawn - —. were these
• u!stinction between the
laws which gayer
for V-- the aura, an 1 C.:ose enacted
security of the Church. These securities were
not wady confined to the Coronation Oath, but all those
Laws were now by this Bill to be obeyed. By the
3 0 I It Charles H., a Papist was prevented from sitting in
hither House of Parliament. The civil obligation of
the Coronation Oath carne before their Lordsitj, s as joint
uardians, with the King, of the Protestant establialatnent,
and their Lordships were to judge when the King swears

znacy of the Protestant Church,whetber they could ceeascien-
, that he will to the utmost of Lis power maintain the stirrc.
tionsly advise him to deprive that Church of the protection
which these Ima afforded. The precise Means by which iti
preserVation was to be effecoe was not pointed our, but
it could only be done by a confirm trion of all the Ines
in force for its security. He would not deny the om-
nipotence of Parliament to make or repeal laws, but
he denied its power to repeal these laws, which were
a mope. t between the people and the King, to which
repeal, the people had given no assent—but, on the cow-
leery, from which they dissented, without appealing first
to the people by a dissolution. Their Lordships should
not condemn their posterity to slavery and superstition,
and if there were any of their Lordships who entertained
no fear for the safety of the church, they should at all
events consider the calamitous consequences to their effspring,
and should have compassion for their suns and grandsons,
et, deter them from consigning them to all the horrors of
religious intolerance. It was contended, that this men..
sure was brought forward for tie purl'oee of greeting
3
all classes of his Majesty's subjects,
but
no beneficial effects; there were more harmonious feel-
ingsay unions
in separation than in such unions. The hi story of
n%
the world of no parallel which sould be considered
as a safe rule, in the present instance, but in no country in
Europe Was the spiritual power of the Catholic Church ade
mined to such unconditional power as would he given to
it by the measure now proposed. The Noble and Learned
Lord on the Woolsack told their Lordships that the Ca-
tholics disavowed the temporal supremacy which their
Church formerly claimed. Though he admitted that this
disavowal was not communicated through a vote of the
Council which was the only formal way in which it could
be done, as the Noble Lord admitted this he should have
told us when it was that the Catholic Church ceased to
laim that supremacy which they bad formerly adhered to.
It was said by the advocates of this measure that the Roman
Catholic religion 'haul 'changed; .but he sireinl4- refer -N-oble,
Lords to a declaration of the late Pope, Leo XIL wherein
he declares that it cannot change; and it should be cement-
b Ted that this declarrition was made in the 19th century.
—(Hear, hear, hear.)—There could be no safety in
admitting Roman Catholics into civil offices ; he
was bound by his oath not to divulge any secret, let it be -
what it might, that tended in any way to lessen the power
of the religion he professed. Now:if the Catt.olic religion
was not changed, he would ask the Noble Duke at
the bead of the Government what had induced
him to bring forward the present measure. He did not
dispUte the statement made by the Noble Duke the oiler
evening respecting the situation of Ireland,, but if he under-
stood it right it only amounted to this that England could
not govern Ireland ; but Ireland had the power to govern
England.—(Hear, hear. )—But he (Lord Guildford) would
say, that if those laws which used to be considered good
had not been abandoned, there would have been no
necessity for the present Bill. It was said whilst
the question remained unsettled there could not be a
united House of Commons, and that all the rising talent
of the country were favourable to the claims of the
Roman Catholics. That might be the opiuirene of
some, but for his own part he heel- heerd I o
argument to convince him that that ea:as the case. They
were giving political power tr, the Catholics, and yet, for-
sooth, that it was said would protect the interest of
the Protestant Church of Ireland.—(Hear, hear.)—He
Believed the nation, in the history of any fernier period,
were dissatisfied by. any measure introduced by Govern-
ment. lie knew that there were many aepirieg mint.;
who would enter into any experimental system for
novelty and fame. They could not exist without it,
they would throw their former friends on one side—
men whose excellence entitled them to the greatest re-
spect and attention, to accomplish that object. He did
not say how far these. remarks were applicable ire the pre-
sent case. The Noble Lord here went into some
historical facts connected with Magna Charta, th e
Reformation and other periods, butlfrom the low tone
of voice in which lie spoke we could not gather :he put•
port of his observations. As soon as the Noble Lord *T3
came audible, we understood him to say, that when the Fes-
tablished religion of this country was Catholic, the Clem.
never could be subdued, unless the existing wonarch
was a tyrant, and he was fearful that the time might
rave when it would be necessary to govern it by arbi-
trary and vindictive laws. He would net say that the
Roman Catholics ought to be deprived of their Tell.:
eious privileges, in fact they ware not, hut he would (ten-
tend that political and civil rights ought never to be granted.
to the professors a a faith whose tenets were deetrac-
tive of all liberty—justice was the proper meaning oTe the
word liberty, and thatreligiou which did not practiia-z: justice..
ought not to have liberty. This principle bred been acted
upon fur more than 2,000 years. It was, his firm opnion
that liberty and the Roman Ceetleolie religion emed:
not exist together. The pitsiotisin by which it
was said they were influenced fur their country's good
he was firmly persnadtir, had no other object than to ex-
tend their euetaer and increase their influence. He
earnestly besought Noble Lords to protect the prin-
ciples of that Revolution which placed
the present
illustrious House of Brnnswick upon, the Throne
of these realms—to protect those civil, and religious liber-
ties that were held so sacred by o'er forefathers, and which
he was convinced could only 'oe done by objecting to the

present measure.

Lord LILFORD would not detain their r ordsiiips any
great length t,F time with what he
to say, the most
iuportent question that cow:, be
put to the House
was, whether the ade-i.
tion of these measures would
he inc°4si'"t-with the safety of the Protestant re-
-I'osll "":., by law established. He thought that they
7, ere not inconsistent ; there were two grounds which
called for the immediate adoption of them,—these
;rounds were expediency and State necessity. Had
,he grounds of expediency been proved, he (Lord
Lilford) was of opinion that it had, and most satisfactorily;
the question of State necessity may not be proved ; still the
triumph of bringing in these measures where that shall
have been obtained will be great. What is to be done
Are we to disregard the opinions of those parties Woo, bi•
-ill others, are admitted to be hest acquainted With 'e lee laws
which more immediately aitict that couu.tty.,
the measure of relief i..intended for whom
; 't 4 that one of
two things must be donee--coneeasieb
to his Majesty's Ro-
man Catholic 7.ubi,cts must Le
granted, or the irome-
, r bite establishment of railite:ry laws in beta rel.—(Hear.)
—He (Lord Liltord) ad
tered strictly to the Protestant
religion—a religion to which he had been bred—he
still
would continue t:o adhere t e it ; and notwithstaedieg any
charge of ir'.consisttncy that milt be beote;ht ag it t
lie should give his vote in favour of the naeasutes
which Inv.; come recommended from the Throne.—(Hear,
hear.)-,.And be would repeat that tue charge of incoe-
, .istency should induce h to withdraw his support
(Hear. )—He considered the adoption of these measures as
a necessary step to the obtaining of a second union.
which will indeed make us our WadiVided einP're; W;th
regard to the securities, have been mentioue as He-
_ cessary, his COVVVicyki,ol was that the super-teeemenee of
. the Protestant Religion, as by law esteblis;,ea, was the hest
security that could he brought forvete 4—(lfe;:r.)—The
Noble Lord concluded by 9:,;10 giving the uttasure his
sanction—a measure from,
V.:446 the happiest results would
arise.

Lore Gramme/Ton and WESTMORELAND then toe at
wome time,—the cry, however, for the latter predo-
minated:

Earl WESTAIMIELAND then said lto bop d
t!) be excused if he trespassed on their L'adships' time by
a few remarks which he had to tr.aike, The Noble EA
c•nceived that the House was bound to the second reading
of the Bill now before thou Lordships. Noble Lords ought
to have kept their op:talons upon the subject until the B::1
curie to its last stage; the :Ltt•agt..r,,s e:ti,:e rk-ccAntrewied
from the Throne, and tii Douse is re,ie,,t,d by thr
mornmendatiovs to well c,:t:‘•ider tita. sulject. Ile (Earl
\V-eshTOreliknd) SCRS of opinion :hat the should go
judo a CAI nittee. This rnrasure is to make great and