The Sun.
London, England, 1842-03-04 00:00:00

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recommendation - which had the effect of &terring capi-
tialists from embarking in railway undertakings in Ire-
'nil, The recommendation was that the selection of
rr‘thie, great lines should not be left to private capitalists.
et__tiet was sufficient to destroy the hopes of railway enter-
tins in that country ; and this gave him a strong claim
1,1,,3,1 the consideration of the Ilouse. The second re-
W__
ell was made in June, 1838, and it was attributed to
is of the ablest men of the present age, the late Mr.
to "end. The report showed that the best way
tete've Ireland the advantage of a railway sys-
the rt`las that the Government should undertake
nary --"enagenient, whereby the enormous prelimi-
tetra:Penses—law and Parliamentary—and the
were in ant compensation paid to owners of land, which
avoidedlurred by all the English Railways, would be
I:tail The Parliamentary expenses of the English,
restilts amounted in the aggregate to 1,716,000/. The
cent. l;.'as that the public were obliged to pay 100 per
than „ 'isrher under the system pursued in this country
pelf der that pursued in Belgium. The rate of tra-
sen;s: in the latter country was lied. a mile for pas-
to 46derat for limestone from ld. to 3d., for coals from id.
trust, and for manufactured goods from 2d. to 6d. He
tended that the benefits of such a system would be ex-
Lteng to Ireland—that the errors committed in the con-
he be" of other railroads may be avoided, and that
Nam nefits of railroad communication, with all the ad-
Vithagaes and improvements of the best system, combined
The moderate expenditure, may be secured to her
that 'Peculator must be sanguine, indeed, who" expected
ra,ilwaY with. two parallel lines of road would, in
tend Leland
De a remunerating one. Still, they ought to ex-
In 180 Ireland the advantages of the railroad system.
for his Noble Friend had brought forward his Act
obtain construction of lines of railroad in Ireland, and
lure ed the sanction of the Legislature to the expendi-
a two millions and a half. He hailed the proposal
Ile haPPY omen, and endeavoured to impress on the
tht'tise, that it would be a more judicious application of
pert•surn, if it was applied to the construction of given
West
an -of three great lines to the north, south, and
portions and to be distributed among them in equal pro-
ele°°s• Re read a resolution of a public meeting, over
e rh the Right Hon. Member for Dublin presided, re-
°-"ell,ffing the plan for forwarding three lines
alee;(4';• The House would perceive that this
evf4 et had been six years under discussion. How-
-1)/1124'1°h he might regret the late change of Ad-
iStratient he still hoped that the Noble Lord, the
tine:"t Secretary for Ireland, would show the same
reedieet..Y, which had been shown by his predecessor to
to the Ireland a source of strength instead of weakness
adva.--weinn, lre. • Now, nothing would contribute more to
kent:;° the social condition of a country than improve-
esta6.'° its means of communication, and especially, the
Austrianient of railways The Governments of Russia,.
en, and the United" *States had devoted their parti-
ng J.- attention to that .subject. In England, there were
of:hii7so miles of railway, which had cost 60,000,000/. ;
to 'licit 10,000000/. had been swallowed up Parliamen--
let4'xnenses, and of that stun 6,720,000/. were abso-•
and Y and unnecessarily thrown away. The most direct
t:a-sd' mode of communication would contribute to the
inuer4,4l advantage- s of both this country and Ireland, and
ase that identity of interest upon which so much
those the prosperity of both countries. Ile trusted that
inot)„--e considerations would have their due weight, and
the hence upon the mind of the Right Hon. Baronet at
Righted of her Majesty's-Government, and that the
dat,"-011. Baronet would either adopt those recommen-
to 1°-
or any other means which might be thought best
he mote these objects. There was another fact which
Net'. French) thought it right to state to the House.
Go Ps lion. Gentlemen were not aware that the
tedelrement in every instance had gained very conside.r-
-ae,e:l the advances made from time to time for rail-
-10'4./* The system of making those advances was this
stinnose was lent, at 5 per cent. for eleven years,
ie-eievernrnent had that money for 3 per cent., which
eeven years amounted to 334 showing a clear gain of
Chancellor eer
on every transaction of that nature. The
toold c of the Exchequer was aware of those facts, and
(eihontradict him (Mr. French) if he was not right.
and. Ron. Member then read a statement of the imports
a r.,,Ports of Ireland for several years past, showing
than increase on both.) That increase showed, more
inter anY "ords could &'
i how essential it was that the
lion of Ireland should
e Uld be attended to. In propor-
th -1.43 the resources of Ireland were developed, would
snurdens of England be diminished ;. and these re-
ng be speedily and fully developed by allow-
thlstuein to use, what was used with no sparing hand in
itatl eti3ell°.!rY, viz, railway communication. He felt he
la:1.--° 1911 g trespassed on • the time of the House, and
il'acTil.d therefore conclude with the motion of which
late giren notice—" That this House do resolve itself
Committeeitf.a:%..:ll,dbe of the whole House, for the purpose
ahe`-eParing an Address to her Majesty, praying that
graciously pleased to recommend to Par-
kostent, that such measures shall be taken as may appear
lik
colt 03' to secure to Ireland the advantage of railway
Munict;
the ion.
,PEAKER inquired if the motion of the
tind ''''ember was intended to raise money (as we
°f trh
-Mr FRENCH said his object was to call theattentionin IrehZdai.estfs Government to the subject of Railways r
a s
twor. IpiAAV rose to second the proposition. He had
Priehai°4 object' in view; first, he hoped that. his Hon.
would not persist in pressing his motion on her
to '"teet•Y Governmente—(Loud laughter.) He intended
time, c„ the motion, but lie felt that at the present
e:' c`i4slderine• the great measure to. be introduced by
rrAlluatstye Ministers,- and considering that the Go-
o eet_n at the resent moment were not in a position
to te se4tlisfeneh intormation as would enable them too come
fa.;_ourabl ‘eketot4°llYeuP°'
emon were t Conclusion, and considering that if a de-
n the subject now, it would be un. -
coteenon the views which he_ (Mr. Shaw) held in
thew,' with the Hon. Gentleman, therefore, he
co ,-, It it Would be unwise to press the motion
.on the
ra„v;erninent He had another object in seconding the
-"tu estate to the House his entire con-
eillreh Which
M'a
to
s the Hon. Gentleman when lie
CO in the sews o
4oe 1 that railifly communicationsi would be of infinite
t eat to Ireland. He (Mr. law) should be very sorry
acihile,t an opportunity slip for promoting a measure
heel was of real and permanent interest to Ireland,
Rath in which no party feelings were involved.
Ih„.2'egard to the particular object . now brought before the
roues. by the Hon. Gentleman opposite. he would not endea-
slci4T info prevent him pressing his measure, but he must say, from
theintorrnation he had collected on the subject, as well from
nt Iteports of the Railway Commission from the Report
f
t Committee of the House, he did believe that a system o
1111-1' might be introduced, with the best possible effect into
.ae .
set,efee_ provided it were a combined, general, and economical
ite7"l, in opposition to the system as underta _ by hat
the bodies at present.—( Hear.) He thought
I,er question as to whether the system would be remu-
tte°, o would turn on the fact of the manner
Brit would
trance re conducted—combined or. not. If Govern-
Preii !Quid introduce such a measure, and enact the neces!ary
sa„tnl " riaries, and, being combined as he said before, that is to
lineY having a common station in Dublin, and a part of the
the 55Y eight or ten miles common to all the line, no doubt
at,
eroeasure would be remunerative, but it would only
orit„l'd on whether it were conducted on that principle
the' rivate body. He thought nothing should be done till
kuottn
le subject was properly before the House. 'There was
teltt,•er Point, to which, however, he should not refer at length,
ttel4-„ve to the increased facility of communication between
lour:" and the metropolis ; but he would say that the whole
titre from London to Dublin might be performed in the
consumed in the passage from Liverpool to Dublin,
eoteid Was fourteen hours. The House had lately expended
thisnd
torn erahle. sums in improving harbours, &c., to facilitate
6°liornstnleation, and he thought they were aware of the. great
tesehie ance of making the communication as expeditious as
irerpo' lie thought the dangerous communication between
and Dublin ought to be ptio ut an endjo as soon
.als
road te 115 thought if a communication were effictedby rai
, I.- t "gh Wales, thereby having long land travelling and
-
\ Re sea. age the best results would take lace.—
te ari hear.) ' voy
He' was convinced if the Governmenpt could
kietrevailed on to consider of the improvements that
throo Le effected by a general system of railways
in th:nout Ireland they would be secured a full return
of public economy, by saving, in Post-office ?ern-
e;°ns and other Government objects, a sum consider-
DrotiZi'rmer than any they wnuld be called upon to expend in
121otteiiIng the objeCt he was desitous to see advanced. He
e'Peott " his Friend should allow the Government to have an
'''s r r,4l'itY of looking further into the subject. If he refused
telitlesl, then he should ask his Noble Friend, the Secretary
Alrrettirs, not to come to any positive decision onithe subj..ect.
I,l'eika''shpiNGTON must say that the Right Hon. Gen-
-"enbaek d I ; d in a very indifferent manner.
presenter. there r,otinn the purpose of of or negativ:ng the
; B. ef9 he sat down he would allude tr.. a
he hadrepre‘.ented to the House from parties
tibli,e-m with the Railroads be-ween Belfast and Lurgante,
vegun-,and Drogheda Those parties did not seek
publicimmedia
''talatetrY aid from .the Government. What the
tee
4s. was that the Government should give a guaran
4„"ivtuerer eeot. for half the capital that the former should
then they would give the Government the
their of the system. He also hoped that the Govern-
ugh enable th Proprietors to get their Bills cheaply
Coe,gh Pahate• ef
rteOceennteOlnlint ;for
would•Clht p en sbee impossibleas the London for
aainidy. IBriiarh-
k which
hader hadu tex-pay. Considering the position
measures coed Ireland, and that they did not
(Alt! aia'ge demand haha of the Exchequer, he
lit
teed edington) hoped the present application would be
or
‘te.
• !eveetluiELlOT thought there was a great discrepancy be-
ep,vtne motion of the Hon. Me nber for Roscommon and
~,oureee,,(ll The gist of the latter* .was, that no other means
;`'ore do if the Government would not first take up the ques-
e'og te"'„e CLord Eliot) felt himself in a difficult position, feel-
uered he objected to the proposition, he nlight be cons-
;ir;hueltsite:ndervalue the importance of railways to. Ireland;
taPidiiy cr thought no such thing. While he admitted. that
aicommuideation was not of such importance in an
I a' in a commercial and manufacturing country,
treat et`tv'til say that the introduction of railways would confer
ernnlov,:antages on Irelar d • t the least of which would ; e the
tilar'ent and eneouraglem' not
it would give to the labourers
44sist joe9untry- This latter benefit he was most anxious to
the positiultrOduting. The Hon. Gentleman then referred to
'Pectee tn which this sub', ct stood in 1839 ; and as re-
eltee had oble Lortl who preceded him (Lord E. ) in the
e he
ehik Lord E. „.. honour to fill, no. one felt more pleasure.
atlmia.o.
e ehata t um In beam,/ testimony to the talents and . 1
14 ear e er of the Noble's'. d nho,e conduct and bearing
4t/lo ned the.
hti "N. who_ good wishes of all classes of the community,
theeal opponems to none were more willing than his Lordship s
eseknowledge the kindness of his hearts
e,i7iYear 14339 Y of his disposition. His Noble predecessor, in
p nosed a plan to the House, the o pet
vxthh:er:e_roilhdailiettsi.entroethwreeacseoogsuonniit,e the ninci that the Government
vt,s its to
the coustructlion ofl railways in Ireland. It
not pl.oe,ee-ays would pasns.ye sail or security prop::sed to
.thew.G).,o,.._
!t.e
tsis,
porf, the c ("rue= , trhalega hs
shiould
tltourvtia; proii,ictiettinat
hpea y
deficiencytl i interest of
shouldo f the money
nMao,nieeytlpaydnvAnctehde_,
ell! eilYeestlis,se; inliteietha.di no wish to go back to the consi.leration of
fcluartition
of
rheala but as it had been made part of the
illeonsidercd
"Y. If a period (1
.oirii.tGentlernan, he (Lord E.) must say
species of security little better than
irnb no Government
,general distress should arise in Ire-
:tenptn:lnuare,:oe thOs..ecardnivfnoatthh3 could come upon the counties to re-
and he doubted whether many of the
uties would
B'. tames throungehe:Ca'tlactuelatbeedro trle, ttheby
to 23. an acre. fhweh they convenetfeerd
rtno;iwsusc,lsi
that the
char
woguld vary fro 3M
preent .county cess amounted to from

3s. 6d. to 4s. an acre, and, by the proposed plan, the liabilities
of the counties would be considerably increased. The whole
of the county cess was defrayed by the occupying tenantry.
He knew not what arrangement it might ba proposed to make
on this subject between the owners and the occupiers of land,
but, unless some arrangement were made, the whole expense
would fall upon the occupier, who would derive little or no
advantage from the railway. It was true that Parliament had
affirmed the proposition of the Noble Lord by a majority
of 44, but so coldly had that proposition been received
that the Noble Lord had taken no further steps to carry it into
effect. Thus matters rested from 1839 to 1841. Last year
the Noble Lord had brought forward a new proposition, the
principle of which he (Lord Eliot) considered unobjectionable.
It was merely a plan to facilitate the bringing together of the
capitalists, and the persons connected with the district, and the
only duty of the Government was to take care that the terms
agreed upon between them should be fair and reasonable. But
from what he had seen and heard in Ireland, he thought there
would be great hesitation on the part of the counties before
they acceded to the proposition. He would not say that if it
were modified it might not be acceded t,, but as it stood at
present, he doubted much if the counties would accede. The
proposition, as he understood it, was, that an amount of 4 per
cent. should be guaranteed on the part of the
counties, any surplus funds being to be divided
equally between the county and the Company. He had
already. said that the proposition would entail great
liabilities on the counties, and that great objection would be
entertained to it in many of them. He would not shelter him-
self by saying that the Government had the measure under
consideration—( Hear, hear)—nor raise illusory expectations.
—( Hear, hear,) But he thought it r ight to say that the Go-
vernment would not make any advance of public money, or
give the, guarantee which was proposed by the Gentleman who
had last addressed the House. 'There were, however, other
modes of facilitating and assisting railway enterprise, which
the Commissioners pointed out, and which the Government
thought it would be proper to adopt. The Commissioners
recommended the Legislature to assist any body of capitalists
that might come together for the purpose of promoting rail-
waysen Ireland, by relieving them from unnecessary liabilities,
and by establishing one fixed and uniform system of compensa-
tion, with less regard to the extravagant demands of private
interest than had prevailed in this country, and facilitate the
Parliamentary proceedings with the least pessible expense ;
that they should also be protected from the ruinous competition
of rival companies. To that extent the Government was dis-
posed to assist. —( Hear.) The Hon. Gentleman had referred
to France and Belgium. But the case of France did not apply
to this country. The system observed in France hail always
been opposed to that of this country. All the great public
storks in France were undertaken by the Government, and
private competition was almost wholly unknown.—(Hear.)
Belgium was a small country, and the expenses of the railways
were easily ascertained. But that would not be the case in
Ireland, where the railways recommended by the Commissioners
to be undertaken in the first instance, would cost three millions.
The Hon. Gentleman talked of the refusal of England to give
that aid to Ireland to which he said she was so well entitled.
But he (Lord Eliot) thought the best mode was adopted by
the Government of investigating the subject. They had em-
ployed eminent engineers to make a survey of the country, and
the results of their inquiries was placed in the hands of private
persons, who would thereby ba the better able to estimate the
advantages of railroads, which would facilitate their enter-
prises. The Hon. Gentleman said that capitalists would not
invest their capital in Irish railroads, but he (Lord Eliot) could
inform him, on the best authority, that the shares on the
Dublin and Drogheda line, and also those on the Ul-
ster line, were better paid by the Irish shareholders
than the shares in England were. No shares had been for-
feited in Ireland, whereas a great many had been forfeited
in England. The Hon. Gentleman then alluded to the enor-
mous increase of the imports and exports in Ireland; but it
appeared to him (Lord Eliot), that such an increase in the
imports and exports was no argument for the intervention of
Government with regard to railroads, because those imports
and exports had increased without any aid from Government.
He thought that he would only be holding out a delusive hope
to the people of Ireland if he consented to the proposition of the
Hon. Gentleman. He was aware that the course of conduct
pursued by the Government might be liable to some misappre-
hension, but he thought it better to meet the proposition of the
lion. Gentleman by moving the previous question than by ac-
ceding to the proposition to encourage expectations w hich might
never be fulfilled.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. O'CONNELL said the Noble Lord had spoken with
candour. He held out no hope of railroads for Ireland, and
therefore be did not bring forward anything that would lead
them to expect something when there was nothing intended.—
( [tear, hear.) They now knew that Government would do
nothing. They said they were right in doing nothing, and
whether right or wrong they would persevere. The Noble Lord
went en to disparage the agreement of the counties and the
mode of levying the tax. But this mode was perfectly familiar,
and the more so because all public works in Ireland had
been erected by that very tax, and the advances made by
the Goverernment had been all paid by means of that tax.
Next, as to what the Noble Lord had stated respecting some
of the counties not being likely to give their consent. He had
received information on this point, which led him to think
that the Noble Lord's belief was not accurate. He had reason
to !snow that most of the counties were perfectly ready to
come into the agreement. In most of the counties on the
different lines, the Grand Juries had actually declared their
assent to the mode proposed. In some counties, the Grand
Juries had made no declaration at all, but he thought he
was borne out in saying that no Grand Jury had declared
against it On this point he thought the Noble Lord laboured
uncle; a mistake. If the counties were tested to-morrow, the
result would prove to be as ho had stated with regard to
Grand Juries. If it were the question whether the
counties should be absolutely liable, it would raise a different
consideration ; but the entire revenue of the line, whatever it
might be, would be the first protection to the country, and if
they were only borne out by a Government guarantee, there
was no probability that the counties would be called on for a
single shilling; on the contrary, the rate of profit had been esti-
mated so low by the Commissioners, that it was impossible to
have any railroad that should pass any of the principal towns,
but it would produce that rate of inteeest, especially if the line
was constructed under Government superinteridence, without
the waste of expenditure of private railways, on the Drogheda
line, which had been referred to, the expense of passing the
Bill was 36,000/., and the whole of that expense, under Go-
vernment management, you'd be spared. He confessed that
he could not agree with the Hon. Ger:finnan who had spoken
before him, with respect to Government superintendence of
railways. One great evil of railways in England was, that
wherever there was a rai:road, there was a monopoly, and a mo-
nopoly without remedy, fur there could nut be any rival line on
account of theexpense. It was a constitutional principle in leng
land, that the road wits the Queen's highway, but they had
intro bleed an anomaly into their system by giving
the highways of England to public Companies. Now,
Ireland was as yet untonched, and though of course,
he should prefer the lines to be under the manage-
ment of a Government more friendly to Ireland, yet, what-
ever the Government might be, he thought it would be an ad-
vantage if the railroads of the country could be put under Go-
vernment inspection and Government responsibility. They
did not call on this country for any money to be advanced ;
they only asked for a guarantee upon ample security. The
expence of obtaining an Act of Parliament would be entirely
done away with, and there would be an opportunity of making
the road in the cheapest possible manner, while no roads would
be constructed but such as would be likely to be useful, and
which would have a probability of a return for the outlay upon
them. The Noble Lord had spoken of the advantage Ireland
would derive from the able Report of the Commissioners, and
the convenience it would be if railways should hereafter
be constructed. But of what use was an excellent Report if
it was to he followed by no consequence ?—( Hear, hear.)
The Report had an effect, and a very prejudicial one; it esti-
mated the profits. of those undertakings so :ow that nobody
would venture to embark his capital in them. '1 he Report
stated that no more than 6 per cent. could be expected to be
realized from the expenditure, and that statement had thrown a
damper upon private speculation. The Noble Lord, the late
Secretary for Ireland, did not persevere with the measure he
had introduced, not that he disapproved of the plan, but be-
catoe,he foresaw that with the opposition given to the measure
in that House, it was not likely to succeed elsewhere. The
Noble Lord had, consequently, abandoned his own thorough
conviction that it would be most advantageous to have the plan
carried out in Ireland. lle (Mr. O'C. ) had only, in conclu
sion, to express his regret at whit he had heard that evening,
and to implore his Hon. Friend not to press his motion.
Lord ELIOT said in explanation, that he doubted whether
it would be expedient, in the event of the failure of the railways,
to come upon the occupiers in the counties. With regard to
the Grand Juries, it appeared to him that they were not al-
ways to be considered to speak tie sentiments of the tenantry.
Captain JONES said that lie did not think that the Govern-
ment would find that the rate.payers in counties would consent
to be taxed, even though such were the wish of the Grand Juries.
Mr. S. O'BRIEN thought that the Government ought to
take up the subject, because the Government would be anxious
to give convenience to the public at the smallest cost, while
private individuals would do the most they could to obtain the
greatest profit. The expense of conveying the mails on rail-
ways would have been saved, if this system attire formation of
railwaytehad been adopted. If they had to begin again the sys-
tem of railways in England, he should say that it
would be the most politic course for the country
that such principal lines as the Great Western
and the Birmingham ought to be opened at the national ex-
pense. With respect to Ireland, there were other considera-
tions which, although they might be forgotten in this country,
were not forgotten in Ireland. Those who like him (r.
Smith O'Brien) were favourable to maintaining the union be-
tween Ireland'and this country, said that the United Parliament
ought to legislate for Ireland in the same manner as her own
Parliament would have done.—( Hear, hear.) Now with re-
gard to this question, the circumstances of England and Ire-
land were not analogous. In England there was a large sur-
plus capital. In Ireland all the capital that could be com-
manded could be advantageously applied to the cultivation and
draining of the land, and therefore it was not a use-
, ful application of capital to embark in railways.—( Hear. )
It was the duty of Government to assist the people of Ireland
in carrying a general line of railways through that country, and
he (Mr. O'Brien )-maintained that it was also the interest of
the Government to do so ; that both countries would be approxi •
mated by such a measure; that Lancashire and Yorkshire were
equally interested with any part of Ireland—(Hear, hear.)—
and certainly when 6,000,000/. or 7,000,0(10/. would give a gene-
ral ral brie of railways throughout all parts of Ireland, that sum was
so insignificant that, in his opinion, it should not be spoken of
at all by the Government. So far as the county which he
represented was concerr.ed, he felt it his duty to bring the
matter under the consideration of the Grand Jury at the last
Assizes of Limerick, and they expressed the most anxious
wishes that a general system of railways should be undertaken
as soon as possible.
Alter a few words in explanation from Mr. SHAW,
Sir R. PEEL said, he inferred from the speech of the
Hon. Gentleman who had brought forward the motion, that his
object was to recommend the Government to,undertake a system
of railways in Ireland at the public expence, and that they would
advance a sum of money to carry out those objects. Through
out the whole of the Honourable Gentleman's speech,
that appeared to be his object. However, he (Sir R. Peel)
was bound to suppose, from the Right Hon. Gentleman's dis-
claimer that he had no such intention, that he did not mean
those expenses should be borne by the public, but that they
should be undertaken by private individuals, When it was
stated that an advance of public money was an insuperable
objection, the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. French) sail, with
correctness, that it was not his intention that those works
should be done at the public expense ; but he (Sir R. Peel)
should say that he thought that disclaimer of the Hon. Gen-
tleman also at variance with the context of the Hon. Gentle-
man's speech. If there were any doubt s :upon the subject, the
motion of the Hon. Gentleman itself had completely set
them at rest ; because the Hon. Gentleman did not
propose that an. address should be proposed and voted
by the House itself, but that the House should resolve
itself into a Committee of the whole House, far the purpose
of preparing an address to the Crown—for the preparation of
an address where money formed no object. The whole House
was the proper authority to address the Crown, but a Commit-
tee of the whole House was the proper authority where any
pecuniary demand was sought to be granted ; and, therefore,
again he said, if he arg .ed fi;m the speech of the Hon.
Gentleman, he should have thought that an advance of
money was his object. He (Sir R. Peel) granted that if
party considerations could have iefluenced her Majesty's Go-
vernment, that should have been, of all others, the very pro-
position in which, as a party movement, it should be his studs'
to acquiesce.—(Cheers from the Ministerial benches, anil
ironical cheers from the (apposition.) He had no doubt
that if her Majesty's Government had said at once

that they were ready to undertake a system of railways, I
in Ireland, that they would have conciliated a great number 1
of supporters amongst the Irish Representatives.—( Hear,
hear, from the Opposition.) But in the present state of the
finances of this country, would the Hon. Gentleman say that
6,000,0001. or 7,00,000/. would be a matter of such insig-
nificance, or so utterly unworthy of thought, that her Ma-
jesty's Government should be at once ready to undertake and
become the makers of such an extensive system of railways.
If he (Sir R. Peel) thought the Government could honestly
incur such a risk in the present state of the finances of the
country, and if it was a matter of indifference to them whether
they undertook a fresh expenditure, no doubt the Government
might have conciliated a considerable number of valued sup-
porters ; and therefore if her Majesty's Ministers had not taken
that course, it proved they were actuated by far better mo-
tives.—( Ministerial cheers.) He declared most sincerely
that if he thought such an expenditure could be encountered
with profit—if he really did believe that the undet taking by
the Government to make 540 miles of railways in Ireland
would be for the permanent and real advantage of Irelaad,
mar.), of his scruples would be thereby removed ; but he be-
lieved it would be for the real interest of that country that Irish
gentlemen should act on the principle which had
been attended with such satisfactory consequences
an England—( Hear, hear)—that it would be infinitely
better if they were undertaken by private speculation. He
really did think that when Hon. Gentlemen asked for public
money that they did not ask for what would be advantageous
to that country. When he looked at the whole history of the
Irish Parliament, whose experience they (the Government)
were now asked to follaw—when he considered the grants of
that Parliament, and when he recollected the grants to the
Royal Canal, the Grand Canal, the Tyrone Canal, and the Shan -
non Navigation, he knew what would be the consequences.
Mr. FRENCH was understood to say that some of those
undertakings were not at the public expense.
Sir ROBERT PEEL said that surely the Tyrone Naviga-
tion was undertaken at the public expense, to afford facilities
for the working of the collieries on account of the exaggerated
statements then made of the value of the coal mines. He
would undertake to assure the House that if those things were
left to private speculation the individuals engaged in them
would weigh accurately the possibilities of remuneration and in-
terest for the capital expended, and then no doubt they would
not be undertaken, unless there were very good grounds
to hope for success ; but he should say that to advise
her Majesty's Government to expend the sum of
6,000,0001. or 7,000,0001., and to recommend them to
undertake that extensive system of railways at an expense that
probably might not be remunerative—after bringing together
an immense congregation of labourers—and then aster giving
undue incentives to exertion upon their part, it would be a
weakness, and would only increase the evils and distress which
they attempted to remove. The Hon. Gentleman said that
he ( Sir R. Peel) had in 1839 opposed the scheme proposed by
the late Gave nment for the introduction of railways in Ireland.
It was quite true he had done so ; and he had then acted on the
very same principle upon which he now acted. If there was
a certainty that those railways in Ireland would pay the
amount expended upon them, it might be different ; but if not.
he very much doubted the policy of the Government interfer-
ing in them, er of forcing on speculations of that description ;
they would not repay the expenditure. They had all the ex
pertence of England to direct them in the matter, and no doubt
they would Derive the greatest advantage from it. Why
did not the gentlemen of Ireland determine upon
one line of radway—suppose from Dublin to Cork
or Limerick—then it would be quite fair to give such
advantages or facilities as Government superintendence
could afford, if they wished it. They had the land in Ire-
land already surveyed. They had their plans made out.
• and a country particularly favourable in point of geological al-
vatetages. Why not then leave the matter to themselves;
first, were the proprietors willing to permit their lands to be
taken upon a different principle from that usually adopted in
this country ? Were they willing to permit a valuatien of them
to be made, not according to the estimate of the proprietor, but
upon some fixed principle, as in Russia or Prussia? If the pro-
prietors were not willing to do that, he should tell the House
that the Government would have very great difficulty in seizing
upon the lands of any gentlemen, and forcing them to part with
them. If proprietors of land were willing that their
own arbitrary estimates should not be acted upon, that might
indeed afford a great facility. If the price of those lands were to
be fixed or determined, suppose by Government Commissioners
—here again, for instance, would be the means of profiting by
the experience which they had of railways in Engl and,
by taking a price that would compensate for the lands, and
prevent very great exactions; the country might profit by
that experience, and mighf thereby avoid many of the evils and
embarrassments which had arisen in England. Surely the
competency of the people of Ireland to undertake these works
were not denied? If they resolved upon one line of communica-
tion and forgot political or party divisions, and the asperities to
which they led—if tha people of Ireland applied thcmsel -es in
downright earnest to enter upon those speculations they would
—they must succeed.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Hon. Gen-
tlemen on the opposite side admitted in their speeches in this
House, that the resources of Ireland are rapidly increasing
that they are improving every day—that their agricultural pro-
duce is increasingshowing that they could rely upon their
own native resources. Why, then, did they ask for needless
assistance from the Government? Could not the people 01
Ireland show that they were equal to the task which the
people of England and Scotland had accomplished ?
( Hear, hear.) Let the people of Ireland, in the first instance,
prove by the tranquillity of their. country, that capitalists
could safely expend their capital there. But then it was said
that want of tranquillity, and the heat of agitation, prevented
capitalists from speculating with their capital in Ireiaqd. But
if that country were perfectly tranquil—if its pcople were
united together for their mutual advantage, the money
those capitalists (who, as the Honourable Gentleman
opposite said, were overflowing with wealth, and seeking out
remote quarters of the world wherein to apply it with advan-
tage) when they had reason to suppose that their specula-
tions would be good in Ireland, it might be depended upon
that money Would flow into that country in greatabundance.
What, for instance, was the account of the Railway Commis-
sioners with reference to the railway already completed in Ire-
land—the Dublin and Kingston Railway ? That was a railway
undertaken, he believed, by private individuals.
An HON. MEMBER on the opposite benches was under-
stood to say, that the Government had advanced money for that
railway.
Sir R. PEEL said that might have been ; however, the re-
port to which he then alluded was that of a Company
relying upon their own resources. lie recollected per-
fectly well when Lard Morpeth was about to introduce an
extensive Government scheme of railways—when he had se-
lec'ed a railway from Dunn to Cork, to be executed by the
Government—he had met with a great deal of opposition from
Government in other parts of the country, who said that it
was not fair to select one single line of railway—that notlener
could be done unless three lines were commenced—that
3,80:),(.00/. should not be expended in the comphi.
Lion of one line, but that a sum of money should
be advanced for the commencement of three new
lines. He (Sir 11. Peel) thought that tho consequence would
be, that there would be imputations upon the impartiality of
the Government; and, so far from giving satisfaction, it would
be said that there should he some otner lines selected. Taking
advantage, then, of all the errors in the completion of railways
in England, and having the advantage of any assistance which
Government could give in seeing those works properly conducted,
and in making new arrangements with respect to the purchase
of land, and affording facilities for the purpose of preventing
enormous expenses, he (Sir R. Peel) did not despair that Ire-
land would easily, by the assistance of the Irish and English
capital, be capable of conducting railway speculations to
a satisfactory issue. His proposition was not founded upon
any indifference or hostility to Ireland, but under a real and
conscientious belief that the interference of Government would
only check the enterprise of private speculation, and be an im-
pediment to the success of the undenaking.
The SPEAKER then suggested that unless a grant of pub-
lic money was wanted, the terms of the motion, " that the
House res Ave itself into a Committee of the whole House"
should be omitted.

Sik R. PEEL submitted that the House should guard most
strictly.against the principle of establishing a precedent by ap-
proving of that mode of eriginating giants of money.
Mr. WAKLEY said the Government was placed in a very.
awkward situation when they refused so reasonable an
application as that made by his Hon. Friend (Mr. French).
He hoped the Right Hon. Baronet would act on his own re-
commendation with respect to Ireland. It was in the power
of the House to make Ireland prosperous. It was not neces-
sary that there should be a grant of money to carry out this
recommendation. It was only necessary for the Right Hon.
Baronet to act fairly to Ireland—to give them social rights
and privileges equally with the people of this country. By this
he would catry out the resolution. He did hope the Right
Hon. Baronet would not forget his own recommendation, but
that he would set to work, and give to I-elan i the benefits
which this country at present enjoyed.
Lord .1. RUSSELL rose, but was for a considerable time
inaudible in• the gallery. He was understood to say, that he
did not object to the form of the motion before the House,
but he thought the Government ought not to make any pubic
grants for the formation of railways in Ireland. He
did not think that it was well for the Minister of the Crown
to grant money under any circumstances to particular branches
of the community; but when ,grants were made, they should
con,ider the benefit of all. He thought, therefore, that the
House of Commons ought to be much more disinclined to
make grants of money than they had of lite years. 'He thought
this argument told not only in the present case, but against
many motions of past years. ( The Noble Lord here spoke i a
so low a tone of voice as to be almost inaudible in the gallery. )
On the 30th of June, 1841, a motion was made that the House
should resolve itself into a Committ e of the whole House, to
consider an Address to her Majesty, stating to her Majest y the
blessings the country enjoyed under the Established Church—
(Laughter)—and to assure her Majesty that it. was the duty of
the Government to employ a cet tain portion of the we,:lth of
the country to the extension of the Established Church ;
and humbly representing that the House would cheer-
fully accede to such measures as her Majesty should re-
commend, to enable the people of this country to enjoy
the blessings of worship in the Established Church. For that
motion there appeared 149, and against it 168. Had that
motion been earned, it. would have 1(1 to very considerable
grants.
Mr. POWELL, in answer to the lion. Member for Firs-
bcdoui dmr yne,osbtrerrgeogsmie
ddei t
.toi stall ty thc
oatuntthrey, , railethh olualg'hdedthperyorpercietiovresd n
theirlrebinn-
d
Mr. FRENCH said, after what had passed, be would with-
draw his motion —Motion withdrawn.
• COPYRIGHT BILL.

Lord MAHON, in moving for leave to bring in a Bill for
the amendment of the law relating to Copyright, said he
should not attempt to raise any discussion. The subject had
been so frequently discussed in that House, he thought any
further discussion would be better reserved for the second read-
ing of the Bill. He wished only to state the principal altera-
tions which he proposed to make. It was provided in the
8.11 brought in by Mr. Sergeant Talfourd that the
term of protection should be sixty years, commencing at
the death of the author ; and the Bill be (Lord Mahon) in-
tended to introduce reduced the term to twenty-five years.
He should also introduce a clause to gua,d against the possible
suppression of works by the descendants of the author, by
gi,lng a discretionary power to the Lef,•islature. These were
the alterations he should introduce into his Bill.

Mr. WAKLEY thought ttat twenty-five years would be
found as objectionable as sixty.. He hoped when the Bill was
brought forward the No: le Lord would be prepared. to show
why authors should have a different title to their works from
any other invet.tor. If the Noble Lord could satisfy the
House on that subject he was quite sure he would be successful.
Unless he could satisfy the House upon that point he hoped
would be unsuccessful.
Leave was then given to bring in the fill.
CORN IMPORTATION BILL.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he did tyits;:the First Lord
of the Treasury in the House, but he wished to ask when it
wai proposed that the Corn Importation BM should be read a
second time.
Fir G. CLERK said the Bill, he believed, would be brought
in to-morrow (this day) at five o'clock, when, he doubted not,
the Noble Lord could the information he wished.
Tho other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and the
House adjourned at Half-past Nine.

We understand that Mr. Under-Sheriff Pritchard
is a candidate for the office of Town Clerk of the City of
London, vacant by the recent decease of the late talented and
respected Henry Woodthorpc, Esq. We cordially wish Mr.
Pritchard success, for no citizen more truly deserves it.