The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-15 00:00:00

T 1114.1 S UN, LONIJON, TUESDAY EVENING, APRIL 15, 1S15:

with the rest of the empire, until they had laid a foundation I succeed in carrying his motion, then Fe (Sir
broad and deep on which a superstructure of conciliation arid a l Charles Napier) would , support the measure of
union' f genuine cordial feeling should he built. A Minister ' the Government.—(Cheers from the Opposition.) He felt
who would attempt that would be conscious of the great that in d lug this he se eule be giving offence to a great numb: r
duly which he had performed, and would eiely the sympathy i of his constituency, who felt very strongly on this nuestion ;
of all that matt wise and good, and his memory would be at- 1 but notwithstanding that, he would ever go straieenforward ie
teneee with that favour which crowns the benefactor of his the support of every measure that he considered just, and file,
country.—(Cheers.) .. and reasonable.—( Cheers. ) When he considered the present
The O'CONOR DON said, that so cordially:did he agree state of Ireland (though, at present, there was no need to ap-
with the observations which came from the Noble Lord who hal prehend a war with America), yet, he would ask, was this just
just sat down, that he brought down the pamphlet referred to the time to throw a firebrand into that country?—( Hear.)
for the purpose of quoting the same language. It was said by an Since this measure had first been talked of as one that was in-
Hon. Member that he wished that this should be dealt tended to be brought forward by the Government—whether
with as an Irish question. If it were to he considered as an wisely or not, was not for him now to question—he would say
Irish question, he believed that an immense majority of the that it had been looked forward to with so much anxiety, that
Irish people would be fuund to vote in accordance with the the rejection of it now would have the effect of placing Ireland
proposition of the Right Hon. Baronet, lie was anxious to in a worse position than ever.—( Hear, hear.) He did con-
rise to answer a question proposed by the Honourable Member ceive that this country was bound by every tie to conciliate the
for Shrewsbury, who called upon them to repudiate the mea- Irish people. He was not the man to encourage Continental
sure proposed by the Right Hon. Baronet. He (the O'Conor Catholic countries to excite Catholic Ireland against Protestant
Don), for one, was disposed to accept cordially the proposition, England---(Hear)—but he would ask, would it not be wise not
feeling, as he did, that it was one involving in itself the educe- to give the Irish people any excuse for joining
tion of a portion of the Irish people, and enhanced as it was in any other counts y against this ?—( Hear, hear.) He had heard
value by the manner in which it was introduced by the Right much from the Hon. Member for Oxford that he regretted to
lion. Baronet. He said that it was to be received in three have heard ; but he would recommend that Hon. Member to
ways :it was turned by the Honourable Member for Shrewsbury deliberate well upon the course he was pursuing, because Ire-
into that ridicule and sarcasm with which, in his opi- land, in time of peace, was not to be quieted bat by kindness
nion, he was too conversant, but he did not for one and conciliation, and if she were not conciliated, in time of
moment venture to grapple with the arguments made use of. war she might become dangerous.—( Hear, hear.) He might
He frequently said " this is the question," but the question it- be told that it would be fully to attempt to invade Ireland ; but
self he totally avoided. The question was this, what was to those who said so might be mistaken. He had heard of the
he done with Maynooth? Was the grant to be discontinued, French Government sending out, enormous vessels to all part•
was it to be continued as it then was, or was it to be in- of the world ; and let it not he forgotten that Ireland would at
creased? Could it be discontinued under present circumstances, one time have been successfully invaded under Napoleon bud
and the state of feeling in Ireland, where there existed s / for the disobedience of his admirals. He saw, by a French
much dissatisfaction? 'Where was the Government that would paper he had received to-day, that several enormous ships had '
not remove one more element of dissatisfaction?—(Cheers. ) been built in that country, intended for foreign stations; but not
There could no doubt exist in the mind of any one as to the having answered the purpose, they were about to be converted into
success of this measure. Was there any principle against the steam war vessels, each containing 2,000 men, and well cal-
grant? If there were, in what did it consist? It appeared that culated for the service for which they were intended.—( Hear,
the principle was against that which would be sufficient— hear.) On those grounds, then, he would say, make Ireland
namely, 25,000/., but there was no principle violated in grant- happy and contented, and he would defy the world to pro-
ing 9,000/. The principle in both cases was the same, in his duce more brave and loyal subjects.—(Cheers.) If they were
opinion. In 1808, there was an increase proposed by a Pro- treated in a contrary spirit, then it was impossible to say what
testant Parliament, and yet no person accused them of yielding might be the result. Nothing was more likely than that a
one principle which involved the principles of the Protestant foreign Catholic nation should be roused against England ;
Church. It was a principle recognized in all the colonies—in anti then if the Catholic people of Ireland, or a great portion of
every one of them—( Hear, hear)—and was that princi- them should join that country, see what a position England
pie to be objected to now in a case where Ireland was to be con- would be in by having her bast subjects severed from her by in-
cerned ?—(Cheers.) The interests of Ireland were as inti- justice and discontent.—(Cheers.) The proposition of the
tnately connected with this country, as the interests which Government was no new question. The Legislature had
were more distant. As it was already thought advisable that already established the precedent for voting a portion of the
that grant should be continued in Ireland, so ought sufficient public money to the education of Roman Catholic priests, and,
be. granted for the purposes for which it teas made. The therefore, it was only carrying out that principle to increase
question was, whether the professors received an amount ado- the amount.—( Hear.) He was surprised to hear the Hon.
quate to their instructions, sufficient to induce them to speed Member for Oxford argue against this, for surely, if men
the whole of their lives in teaching for the sum of 93/. a year. were well educated, it would be much more easy for them
There was one reason put forth for opposing it, which was the to see into the true lights of the Gospel, than if they were
principle of those who would object to all establishments what- badly educated.—(C'heers. ) This country had been trying for
ever. How was it that their indignation was only called forth the last three hundred years to make Ireland a Protestant
when Ireland was brought under their consideration ? When nation—(Cheers)—and as they had not succeeded, now let
it was proposed to give anything to Ireland, then came forth them try to conciliate them by making them better Catholics.
that which would, at the other side of the water, be considered —(Cheers. 1 He did think that this was the first step towards
an anti-Irish feeling—( Hear, hear)—and which he regretted an act of justice towards the Irish people, and coming from
because lie wished to see both countries on the best terms. Ile an opposition Government, call it what they would. Conserve-
thought that it ought not to be considered an ecclesiastical en• tive or Tory, he was glad to see it. It did them great credit,
dowment, but an educational endowment. It ought not to be and he would rive it his strongest and warmest support.
considered as a junction with the State, for he believed that a Mr. S. O'BRIEN then wise to address the House. The
great many Irish Roman Catholics would object to it, but they question of the Endowment of the Irish Church could not now
would not object to a grant tothat College which would enable the be passed by ; it must now be stated in what manner the
members of that College to discharge the duties they had toper. Catholic clergy were to be paid, and from what fund. As an
form with advantage to the country. The Member for Newcastle isolated question, he considered the present measure anything
objected seemingly to the grant on the ground that the profes- but a boon. The worst kind of education was that which
sors were incompetent to teach, and that they were men of no taught its pupils that which could do them no good. From
education. He instanced the evidence of Dr. Cullen, to the what had already taken place, he could only consider the present
effect that he did not know of the existence of the sixth book of as part of a great measure. There was no one more anxious
Euclid. Euclid was not the book taught at Maynooth, but to act straightforward than himself. He believed that the
there was a system used there of the science as it was Noble Lore the Member for London, if he had brougl.t for-
taught by the Abb4 Dare, and which was laid down ward this measure, he would have been justified in doing so,
by French mathematicians of the highest eminence. and would not have violated any principle he had hitherto pro.
The substance of his (the O'Conor Don's) information fessesi ; but could that he said of the Right Hon. Baronet?—
was to the effect, that this man so vilified, so misrepre- ( Hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Newark
sented, so stigmatized, and branded as ignorant, was one had stated that England and Scotland were against the me:s-
of the most distinguished men in the literary and sure. He might with eq ial truth have stated that the province
scientific world in this day. He was eminent by his of Ulster was also against it.—(Hear. ) For his own par', he
researches in the phenomena of galvanism and electricity, must confess, after giving the measure the best consideration
anti his name was widely known and appreciated. The Hr n. in his power, he could not give his consent to it He would
Memb r for Newcastle had referred to the communications ask this question, supposing the Noble Lord, the Member fot
which had passed between the Court of Rome and the Irish London, sitting on that side of the House, had brought for-
Catholic ecclesiastics. He (the O'Conor Don) might be al- ward the measure, would it have received the sanction of that
lowed to make one short observation upon that subject. He House? and would those who now sit on the Ministerial
would merely say that those hulls, no matter how numerous benches, if they had supported it, at a new election have
they were, were of no validity in temporal or civil matters ; come back with the majority they now had ?—( Cheers. )
and he would, with the permission of the House, exemplify He found in the course that the Right Hon. Member for
this very shortly. When this country was threatened by the Newark had pursued, a warrant for the course he felt bound
Court of Spain, and the formidable Armada was ap- to adopt ; he believed that the reasons that hail been urged
proaching its shores, then, notwithstanding the bulls in favour of the Bill were extremely erroneous, and not at
promulgated by the Pope, the Roman Catholics in all calcu'ated to carry it into effect. They might disguise it
this country offered to serve in the foremost ranks, as they would, but there was an allegiance in the Catholic
for her whom they declared to be their rightful ant priests to a Foreign Power, that would ultimately
beloved Queen. The subjects of Ireland could not be loyal to be dangerous to this country. He did not blame the Govern-
her Majesty without, at the same time, being loyal to her sub- ment for bringing forward this measure, he did not blame the
ject3. It was said that her Majesty intended to visit Ireland Right Hors. Baronet for its introduction, nor did he think he
this year. He hoped it might be so. Englishmen had the was to be charged with inconsistency in bringing it forward;
advantage of her residence among them. Scotland he, however, could not give his support to a measure which he
had been honoured by her visits ; and now Le considered tended to shake confidence in public men.—( Hear.)
trusted that Ireland would be similarly honoured, and He believed that upon this subject there was out of doors a
certain he was that there she wou'd be enthusiastically general distrust of that House, which he would be the last
welcomed. Some Hon. Gentleman hail said that they post- party to lend himself to increase. For these reasons he could
poned Catholic questions until their boons were valueless, for not support the motion.
the grants had become a necessity, and the same lion. At least twenty Members rose to address the House, but the
Members again came forward and questioned the Right Hon. Speaker called upon
Baronet in such a guise that it was quite impossible for hint Mr. WYNNE, who said that the Hon. Member for Nor-
to answer them. The questions answered themselves. He thampton had alluded to the names Whig and Tory, contend-
was glad, however, to find that, on his side of the House, the ing that the principles of each party had changed of late years.
Noble Lord the Member for London (Lord John Russell ), Now he was one who had never assumed the name of Tory. If
forgetful of his pary feeling. and, on the other side, he had done so, he should say that the course of events of the last
the Right Honourable Baronet, both concurring in carrying forty or fifty years, during which he had been in Parliament,
out this measure of justice towards Ireland. He would give had been sufficient to convince him that that, party had been
his cordial support to the measure of the Right Hon. Baronet. mistaken.—( Cheers.) He had seen the Whigs moving the
Mr. LEFROY would give his vote against the second read- repeal of the Septennial Act, and the Tories resisting it. Eli
ing of this measure, and lie was anxious to do so in a manner had seen on the occasion of the Regency Bill the Tories main
the least calculated to give offence to the Right Hon. Baronet, taining the right of that House to provide absolutely for the
or to any other Hon. Member. He was the more anxious to care of the Government, and the Whigs, on the other hand,
explain his reasons, as on this question he should be opposing contending for the right of the heir apparent to do so. It had
a Ministry whose general line of policy he had supported. Ile been said that this Bill, which was before the House, was in-
gave full credit to the Right Hon. Baronet for his desire to ad- consistent with the course which had hitherto been adopted by
vance the best interests of the country, but in this case he the Tory party. Was it not consistent with the course adopted
thought he was opposed to the generally expressed opinion by the Right Hon. Gentleman in that House? Was it not
of the entire country.—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") consistent with the course adopted during the whole of his po-
The argument advanced by the Right Hon. Baronet seemed to litical life by the Right Hon. Gentleman ( Sir J. Graham)
him ( Mr. Lefroy) particularly strange. Ho argued that, be- who sat near him? Was it not consistent with the course
cause the present system worked badly in the College of May- adopted by the Noble Lord who had lately left that House
that during the forty or fifty years which he
nooth, they should try what the mere effect of pounds, still- ( Lord Stanley)? With respect to himself (Mr. Wynne) he
lings, and pence could do. He (Mr. Lefroy) objected to was proud to say,
this grant on two grounds ; the first, because it interfered with had had a seat in Parliament, he had uniformly supported mea-
the theory and practice of their present Constitution ; and lie sures of this character.—(Cheers.) He remembered when
objected to it on a religious ground, although he did not mean this question was first debated in that House, in
to discuss this as a religious question. He would put it to 1807 or 1808, that the grant to the College of Maynooth was
any man whether this grant to a Roman Catholic church was supported with the view of drawing close the connexion of
not against both the spirit and the letter of the Protestant this country with Ireland. At that time they knew that
Constitution? Whether it was not an express violation of Rounaparte had tried, by
er every temptation, to induce the Ca-
the declaration signed by the Sovereign of these realms? tholic priests to go ov to France. He offered to found
The lion. Member for Newark had spoken very plausibly in schools and institutions for them, but the offer was refused, and
favour of this measure. The Right Hon Gentleman had re- refused most faithfully and generously. He should mention
corded his opinions upon the same subject, and it was but fair that he had been much surprised at hearing, through this de-
that the Members of that House should compare the two opt- bate, Mr. Burke quoted as an authority against such a measure
pions. (The Hon. Member then quoted from Mr. Gladstone's as this, which had been proposed by the present Government.
pamphlet, in which he strongly objected to the grant to Only two sentences hadr been quoted, from the opinions of
Maynooth.) He should oppose the second reading of this Mr. Burke, in pm oof of
I . Burke's opinions being against the
measure. grant to Maynooth. Instead of these two sentences lie (Mr.
Col. T. WOOD said that he perfectly concurred in thebulk of Mr. Burke's
Hear, hear.) lie
propriety of the measure proposed by the Right Hon. Baro- writings, for there it would have been found that the institu-
net, and he would state the grounds on which he intended tion of Maynoooth was one which had been strongly
Wynne) would have referred to the
to vote for it. The Hen. Member who had last spoken,
had founded his opposition upon a religious principle. (III) Wynne) recollected
that Lord Fitz% 'lFwh
en
But iam,
But he did not agree with Hon. Members that this measure Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, recommended from the throne the
Maynnoth ; and his successor,
by that great man(
would be an invasion or the rights of the Church of England. endowment of I .
se sor, Lord Camden,
Let it be recollected that, by the Emancipation Act, every dwelt, in his speech at thed. coloof of the session, on the fact of
subject of the kingdom, to whatever creed belonging, io
the the College. He dwelt upon
placed on terms of equality with his fellow man, in regard to this fact not as having laid foundation-stone, by merely
with
the enjoyment of civil rights.—(Hear, hear.) It was true smearing the stone over
eeeove mortar, but as showing a dispo-
that that measure made an exception in favour of the Pro- sition, on the part of t,hc
sliame went,rvn to sup
pert and cherish
his having laid the foule a
was
testant religion, so far as the succession to the English Crown ; such an institution. 1h ' s taken up by the party
'
but, while the English monarchs would be certain to uphold to which the lion. Gentleman (Mr
_ • O Brien) belonged ; by
the dignity of the English Crown, the civil rights of the Mr. Pitt, by Lord Castlereagh, and by Lord Cornwallis. Mr.
subjects should not be lost sight of.—( Hear, hear.) It was Pitt had stated in that House, that the establishment of May-
upon those grounds that he felt disposed to give his vote in nooth would be the means of uniting the two coun-
favour of the measure.—( Cheers. ) He would also give his tries. In considering this question, he (Mr. Wynn) did
v.tte in favour of it, because he did think the Government of not look to what was the interest of the country fifty years
this country were bound to provide a suitable education out ago, but what was the interest of the country at the present
of the revenues of the State for the Irish people.—( Cheers. ) time. He felt that this Rill would confer great benefit upon
Let it be recollected that the Roman Catholic priests ware the the country to which it was intended to apply. This Bill
instructors of the Rowan Catholic people of Ireland ; that the would, to a certain extent, do away
t. with the voluntary system,
people were necessarily thrown upon their clergy for advice and on that ground he supported i The effect of the volun-
and counsel, when they had none else to look to in a country tart' system was to make the
anest priests the followers instead of
long known as suffering from an absentee proprietary.— the leaders of the people. Where
,lewas supported its
(Cheers.) In addition to this, let it be also borne in mind the contribution from the parish, there would be a strong
that hitherto the Catholic people of Ireland not only supported temptation for him not to run counter to the wishes of the
their own clergy, but were compelled by law to support the parishioners. He remembered_ the case of a priest who,
ministers of a religion which was not the religion of the ma- having denounced from the altar certain parties who were the
jority of the Irish people.—(Cheers.) He would contend for leaders of some public disturbance, was deprived of his usual
it dist this was a measure of justice that should of necessity contributions. He (-Mr • Wynne) thought
that his Right
have followed a measure of last session—he meant the Catholic lion. Friend was entitled to great credit for the manly and
Bequests Act, and one which would tend more to promote the courageous manner in which he had brought forward this
peace and welfare of Ireland, than any ether measure that measure, and he her; ed, and had the fullest confidence, that
could possibly be introduced.—( Hear, hear.) He would sup- he would carry it to a successful termination.—(Cheers. )
port this measure because it showed that some real attention Mr. COWPER, who was very indistinctly heard in the gal-
was devoted to the state of Ireland by the Government since lery, said he was anxious to state the grounds on which he sup_
they came into office ; and it should be admitted that the state ported this measure. He thought that all the objections which
of that country for the past two years was unparalleled in the had been urged to it had centred in religious grounds. He
history of civilization. He regretted that the Roman Catholic thought that any other objection which might be urged was
priests should have taken part in the great political hardly worth debating, and he was confirmed in this view by the
movement to which he alluded ; but he did not speech of the Hon.:Member for Newcastle ( Mr. Colquhoun). lie
mean to say it was the speeches delivered at ( Mr. Cowper) agreed both with the Hon. Baronet the Member
their meetings, so much as the whole movement for Oxford and the Hon. Member for Kent, in their opinions
itself that made an impression upon the minds of the people.— with respect to Protestantism. But, although he agreed with a
(Hear, hear.) Now he would ask the house, in what manner great portion of their premises, ho could net come to the same
would they be prepared to meet the agitation again, should it conclusion which they had done. Ile believed that the greatest
be renewed? prepared
they prepared to meet it by coercion and possible blessing had flowed on this country from Protestantism,
martial law, or by means of conciliation ?--( Hear, hear.) He and nothing wou'd grieve him more than that Protestantism
would say they should meet it by conciliation alone ; fer if they should be endangered. Protestantism gave the right of private
tried coercion, and succeeded by that in promoting a temporary judgment, allowed the supremacy of individual conscience, and
peace, still they would find at the end that conciliation alone toleration for those who differed from it. Still
lhes ofe did not
would do.—( Cheers from the Opposition.) He felt pain at think that the present Bill would affect the pi incip Pro•
being compelled to differ upon this question from many for testantism. The ground upon which the Hon. Baronet the Mem-
whom he entertained the highest esteem ; but still he would beg for Oxford resisted this Bill was that we ought not to
say that if it had the effect of' conciliating Ireland he would nut vote any money in support of religious opinionshar
regret it.—Cheers from the Opposition.) If this measure which we be believed to be erroneous.--( Hear/ .)
should have the effect of invalidating the claims or stability of There were, indeed, Acts of parliament to be found in the
the Established Church in Ireland, lie would rather resign his time of Henry VIII, Edward. VI., and Elizabeth, in which
seat into the hands of those who had honoured him witlitheir one religion was called false and another true ; and if, as was
confidence, than vote for it ; but he could not see how the en- stated in an Act of Parliament in the reign of Queen Mary,
dowment by the State of the Roman Catholic Church in Ire- the present measure stated that this grant to Maynooth was
land could have such an effeetww(Loud„cheersi) In fact, given for the maintenance of teaching of truth, he would in
Ireland was the only part of the wend in which it was that case resist it to the utmost—he would rather peril his life
found, that two Churches of opposite creeds could not exist in than vote for it.—( Hear, hear.) But as this measure
harmony and peace with each other.—( Hear.) Might they, did not state that it was to support the truth that the
then, not hope that the time was not far distant when they grant was to be given, and as there was nothing in
should see as happy a state of things in Ireland, and was it not the Bill to show that the doctrines taught at Maynooth
the duty of the State to endeavour to achieve it ?—( Cheers were erroneous, there was no reason to prevent him from
from the Opposition.) It had been said that by this measure voting for it. Another argument urged against t.,e measure
the Government would be only arming the Roman Catholic was that it was a violation of the conscience of Protestants to
priests of Ireland with new weapons against the Protestant contribute money to maintain what was considered error by
Church ; let them rather hope these clergymen would use their them ; but it was not altogether true that Protestants paid the
newly-acquired power in furtherance of renewed efforts at the money, for Roman Catholics as well as Protestants contributed
suppression of crime and vice.—(Loud cheers.) The Ho- to the consolidated fund. Besides he thought the Protestants
neurable Member then sat down, whereupon, as upon every of England owed some compensation to the Roman Catholics
similar occasion during the evening, at least twenty Members of Ireland for the manner in which they treated their religion.
rose at once, each endeavouring to catch the Speaker's eye, but It ought not to be forgotten in those discussions that they never
Sir C. NAPIER having succeeded, he said he would not made any setious efforts to convert the Irish Roman Catholics,
have presumed to have taken any part in the discussion this for they never preached the Gospel to them in their native
evening, but that he wished to set himself right with his con- tongue. And Dr. King, Archbishop of Dublin, protested in
stituents, under all the circumstances, for giving his vote in convocation assainst the conduct of Parliament on this
favour of this measure.—( Hear, hear.) He regretted that his ground. Ile did not think it would be much service
Hon. Friend, the Member for Sheffield, had not deemed it teProtestaniem that it adopted the present mode of resisting
with this
expedient to persevere his motion, and take a clear vote grant. He thought that Protestants
offine themselves to and not interfere
the House upon it, for ho knew many Hon. Members who argument and persuasion, . Ire-
to have supported him, in opposition to what they conceiv
conceived with a measure which was calculated to do justice to Ire-
to be an obnoxious measure. However, he had perhaps, after land.-_( Hear, hear.)
all, acted a discreet part in postponing it ; and when he Mr. GREGORY did not think that the present measure
did bring it forward, he (Sir C. Napier) hoped to see him do demanded.
had been discussed as fully as one of such importance . ~ .
out
so in a way that would not cause the motion to be thrown
He wished Hen. Gentlemen weuld dismiss theoretical views
altogether. He (Sir C. Napier) also regretted that the , from their consideration, and look at the present measure, not
forms of the House would not permit him to bring forward a in an absolute, but a relative, point of view, and to the_ effects
more moderate amendment than that of the Hon. Member for which were likely to arise from it. lie thought. that the pre.
Sheffield, in the event of his failure, for, if they did, he sent measure, like the Dissenters' Chapels Bill and the Cheri-
would move that it should be an instruction to the Committee, table Bequests Act, would have the effect of still more weaken-
that in any Protestant arish in Ireland where it should appear ing, the Protestant establishment in that country.--( Hear,
that there were only fopur, or less than four, Protestants, that hear.) He doubted whether the measure would have
all the income and emoluments arising from such parishes the result which was anticipated from it, of
should be applied to a fund for the maintenance of the Roman smoothing the angry feelings of the Roman Catholics of Ire-
Catholic College of weland towards this country. lie did believe that, as the human
if aynooth—(Hear, hear.) However, 1
the Honourable Member for Sheffield should not ' mind became more elevated by education, it also became less

ardent and aspiring. 1-1, did not think that, when the Roman
Catholic priesthood were better educated, they would ks more
likely to give their acqueseence to tnc• possession of half a mil-
lion by the Protestaut clergy, while they themselves got n
thing. Ho expected to hear from the Right lion. Gentleman
the Member fur Newark (Me. Gladstone) some powerful argu-
ments on this subject, hut though he gave him credit for the
motives which actuated him, he cunfesse.i he was disappointed
at the result of his speech. He was afraid that, if this mea-
sure passed, others still more alarming would follow ; and if so,
he believed that the volumes episcopari of the Irish
Roman Catholic clergy would be converted, by an
easy alteration, into volumes episcopari.—(Hear, hear.)
If they endowed Maynooth, all the Dissenters of the country
would have equal claims upon their liberality. They had cast
aside the principle, and could only refuse them on the shifting
grounds of expediency. But the Right Hon. Baronet should
bring forward proofs that the present measure was expedient,
an.l then he was bound to show that the argument of ex-
pediency was a justifiable one. The Right Honourable
Baronet should also clearly define the length to which he
meant to go in concessions of this nature—whether the
Nlaynooth grant was to stand alone or be accompanied
by other such concessions. After the manner in
which the measure had been received by Mr. O'Connell,
the organ of the people of Ireland, he could not wonder that
the people of England were displeased at it. That Hon. Gen-
tleman saint it had been extorted by agitation, and as long as
the Established Church remained in Ireland, there would be
no cessation of that agitation. The Protestants abstained from
agitating repeal solely because of their love of the Established
Church ; but if once this bulwark were overthrown, English
sway over Ireland would be uncertain and precarious. The
Hon. Member concluded by saying he would oppose the

Gentleman to use, when in oppposition, passions with which he
had not the slightest sympathy, and prejudices which he
disavowed.—( Rene wed cheering.) When a change a
salutary change—took place, his former coadjutors were
despised (Cheers) his supporters were disregarded
( Cheers)—and the ladder by which he had risen to power
was thrown down.—( Great cheering.) That has been the
course of the Right Hon. Baronet.—( Cheers.) I will not
now go over the events of eighteen years. I will not say what
occurrel in 1827 or 1829.—(Great cheering.) I will only
say that one such change was enough for one such Minister.—
(Continued cheeering.) He and those with whom he acts
return again to that course.—( Hear, hear.) I will not now go
into the circumstances, much as I regret them, by which the
Government of Lord Melbourne was overthrown. 1 will only
ask, was there ever a single body of men who relied on the
Right Hon. Baronet whom he has not again and again bitterly
disappointed ?—(Cries of "No, no," and cheers.) Well, then,
I leave the management of this quest ion to the landed gentry.
—(Cheers, and loud laughter.) I must refer however to this,
that the clamour which did the most injury to the G. vernment
of Lord Melbourne was the cry of " No Popery."—( Cheers.)
Now, what is the statement we hear to-night from the Hon.
Gentleman the Member for Donegal, that he supports the
measure upon principle, but does any man believe that if my
Noble Friend beside me had brought in this Bill,
it would not be opposed by the whole of that
Honourable Gentleman's part y ?—( Loud cheers.) Four
years ago a very different Bill was brought in, the ob-
ject of which was to disfranchise the Catholics of Ireland by
tens of thousands, but the party which then supported the
Right Hon. Gentleman represented the Bill as calculated to
do the greatest good, and to purge the House of Commons of
the minions of Popery.—(Laughter.) We asked you to wait—
to let it go to the next session. No, no time must be lost;
the thing must be done immediately. The change took place.
You have now been four years in power—you could have passed
the Bill, if you pleased, and when you pleased. Where is it
now ? It is flung away—it is positively pronounced by its
author to be so destructive to the representative system that no
Government could venture to carry it on.—(Cheers. ) What
have you given instead? A Bill for the endowment of Maynooth.
—( Great cheering.) Did any one ever see such a tour of
legerdemain?—( Cheers and laughter.) You imposed on the
honest, hot-headed Protestants; they looked on your Bill with
delight, and see what you have given in its place.—( Cheers. )
Do you wonder, then, at the clamour that deafens you ?
(Cheers. ) Do you wonder that petitions come upon the table
as thick as snow-storins.—(Cheers. ) Is it a wonder when for
the very measures of concessi n which you opposed when we
were in office, you now whip your unwilling followers to the
vote.—(Cheers and laughter.) Is it any wonder that
those ferocious spirits whom you roused to harrass us
should now torment yourselves ?—(Cries of " Hear, hear. )
Doyen wonder that Exeter Hall sets up its bray—(Laughter)—
and that Mr. M'Neil proclaims that the priests of Baal are
feasted at the table of Jezebel?—( Great sheering and laughter. )
If you thought that, having raised the spirit of religious ani-
mosity, you could lay it as speedily as you raised it, you will
be doomed—the day of reckoning m •st still come, and that day
has now come. The Rlght Hon. Baronet, as a public man,
is arraigned before the House and the country, to show us
some real principle with respect to Irish affairs as hich has
guided you in office and opposition. Show us how, if you are
honest in 1845, you could have been honest in 1841. Ex-
plain to us h iw after, when out of office, you goaded
Ireland into madness, in order to ingratiate yourselves with
England, you now in place turn round and throw England
into a flame, in order to ingratiate yourselves with Ireland. Let
es hear some argument showing to us that, as a Minister, you
are entitled to support which will net equally show that you
were the most factious and unprincipled Opposition that ever
this country produced. These are my opinions respecting the
conduct of Ministers. But am I, therefore, to answer the ap-
peal of the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury, and vote against
this Bill? Not so. I believe both the Bill and the Minister to be
in our hands. The inconsistency of the Minister has certainly
produced mischief, but will that mischief be lessened if incon-
sistency is to be displayed on this side of the House? I admit
that this Bill in itself—and the circumstances under which it is
brought in by the Tories, or whatever they call themselves—
will produce many evils, but these evils would, in my opinion,
be doubled, if it were to be rejected by the Whigs, and, there-
fore, it seems to me it would turn the opinion of this House into
ene vast shipwreck, as well as the whole public character of
England. It has, therefore, induced me to restrain
my feelings, and I have determined to give to this Bill
through all its stages my most steady support,
and to every Bill coming from the Government which may
appear to me likely to make Great Britain and Ireland a freely
united kingdom. I give such support regardless of all obloquy
and at the risk of losing my seat in Parliament. The obloquy
so raised I shall look upon aE glory. My seat in Parliament I
shall resign, and consider it no ignominious tender, feeling as-
sured that I could never lose it in a more honourable cause.
—( The Hon. Member resumed his seat amidst loud cheers.)
Mr. SHAW confessed that he did not sufficiently diff r
from the latter part of the observations made by the Right
Hun. Gentlemsn as to render it necessary for him to trouble
the House with any lengthened reply to them.— ( Hess, hear.)
He need not, therefore, assure the House that it was his pain-
ful duty to oppose those with whom he had all along co-ope-
rated. It was truly painful to him to do so, but if he were net
to support the amendment of the Hon. Member for Newcastle,
he should be acting contrary to the dictates of his own con-
science. He was in Ireland when a copy of this Bill, and the
speech of his Right Hon. Friend the First Minister of the
Crown, was received, and he had no recollection of anything
having given more pain—such deep distress to the Protestants
of Ireland—as did both the Bill and the speech. In using
the term Protestants he did not mean the men to whom the
Right Hon. Gentleman had just alluded, and whose petition
was presented the other night by the Honourable Mem-
ber for Knaresborough. He disapproved of their language,
nor did he represent their sentiments, but he
spoke of calm, dispassionate, anal reasonable men, many of
whom had all their lives been friends to the political equality of
their Roman Catholic brethren. Like the Hon. Member for
Newark, they looked upon this grant as the first religious
endowment of the sort since the revocation of the Roman Ca-
tholic establishment in connexion with the State. They re-
garded it as a clear indication that henceforward Ireland was not
to be treated as an integral portion of the United Kingdom.—
( Laughter.) They regarded it as the heaviest blow that had
ever been struck either by foe or by friend to the Established
Church of Ireland. The Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for
Edinburgh first attacked the arguments of those who did not
object to the grant, but objected to its increase. He (Mr.
Shaw) was one of those. Hitherto he had looked upon the
grant with the greatest possible indifference. He thought it
a doubtful policy to continue it, but he also felt it was impos-
sible to to take it away without bringing upon many indivi-
duals whose support depended on it, very great pecuniary em-
barrassment. He however agreed with the Hon. Member for
Newark, that no compact existed upon this subject, but he
altogether differed from those who said there was no distinc-
tion between the proposed and the past grant. On the contrary,
there was an obvious distinction. The Right Hon. Gen lemon
next alluded to the objections of those who opposed the grant
on the ground of religion. Now, he would at once declare,
that he totally repudiated the doctrine of the Honourable and
Learned Member for Bath, because he did not think it was just
or right to say Parliament or the country could make no dis-
tinction between two religions. True, they did not make any
practical distinction, but unless they admitted the power of man
to make some distinction latitudinarianism would usurp
the place of the real and established religion.—( Hear, hear. )
The Hon. and Learned Gentleman said that he treated that
argument with contempt. It might be so. They had the
highest authority for saying that it was not to the scribe or the
disputant of this world that these things were made plain ; but
this he might say, that it was sufficiently intelligent to the
moral sense of the community that their religious feeling was
violated. When he heard Englishmen at this time of the day
saying that there was no difference between truth and religion,
he would ask why was it part of the Constitution that the
reigning Sovereign of this realm must be a Protestant ? Why
was it that Protestantism was by law established in every por-
tion of the empire? The Hon. Member for Newark let fall an
expression the other night, that he could not understand what was
indicated by the term Protestantism, and that there were
many who repudiated that term. He ( Air. Shaw) would not
enter into any logical arguments with his Honourable Friend
the Member for Newark, but he thanked God that the name
of Protestantism was yet intelligible to the understanding and
dear to the hearts of Englishmen.—( Hear, hear)—and whe-
ther it be through the Romanism of ecclesiastics or the want
of fixed principles on the part of their political leaders, used
for the purpose of alienating the affections of the people of Eng-
land from the Church, and shaking their confidence in the
Government, they would forget the true meaning and forsake
the cause of Protestantism, then in his soul he believed
that the days of England as a nation would
be numbered, and the glories of this country
departed for ever. Though they should not, for Christianity
sake, persecute for conscience sake, on the other .hand they
should not encourage that which they believed to be erroneous.
He should make no objection now, if this Bill did no more than
relax the statute of mortmain. And, after all, it was only a
compact which was entered into by an Irish Parliament ; and
never tia now had a national inconsistency been committed by
the English Government—he must also say, a national sin—of
endowing a Catholic seminary, for the sole exclusive purpose
of teaching the Roman Catholic religion. An analogy had
been attempted, by taking the case of a Protestant landlord
and a Roman Catholic tenant. He (Mr. Shaw) was of opinion
that a Protestant landed proprietor should give the utmost
facility to his Roman Catholic tenant, for the free exercise
of his owes religion, but he was not bound to give direct en-
couragement to that which he believed to lie contradictory.
He thought he saw the Member for Roscommon in his place ;
they both differed in religion and politics, but there was no
person in whose hands he would more readily place his ho-
nour or his life. On a question of religion, however, he would
not deprive him of a single right which he ( Mr. Shaw) him-
self possessed. He (the Member for Roscommon) said that
they should treat the Roman Catholics as they themselves
would desire to be treated, but he did not think that it would
increase their friendship if one of them gave direct encourage-
ment to the religion of the other, because it would show great
inconsistency and insincerity in his conduct. The first prin-
ciple which was violated was this, that while they were increasing
funds for the aid of the Roman Catholic religion, they were
diminishing the funds for the education of the Protestants, by
making a transfer of the rates to the incomes of the clergymen.
While they were increasing the buildings of the College of
Maynooth, the Ecclesiastical Commissioners were refusing to
repair the churches for want of funds. These things were not
unobserved, and could not be unfelt ; for his own part, he was
at a loss to know what had been the inducement which had led
her Majesty's Government so to do violence to the feelings of
thousands and tens of thousands who sign the petitions which
nightly crowded the table against the Bill. He was sorry to
hear the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Edinburgh
describe them as mere paper and parchment. The strong feel-
ing of England and Scotland was opposed to this measure. The
Hon. Member the Secretary for Ireland stated that there were
very few petitions from Ireland. But of all the petitions
which did come from Ireland, only one which was in favour of
the Hill was that alluded to by his Hon. Friend opposite, the
Member for Perth, which came from a congregation of Dis-
senters, as a kind of token of gratitude to the Right Hon.
Baronet. The Hon. Gentleman then alluded to the quota-
tions made by the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for
Newark from the speech of Mr. O'Connell—" Agitation, I
thank you ; the Conciliation-hall is obliged to you. Repeal
and Maynooth ought to pray for you." The Hon. Gentleman
said that this measure was chiefly important on account of' the
principles which it involved. He was of the same opinion. It
had been very strongly asserted en the other side of the
House, but it was very faintly shadowed forth on the part of
her Majesty's Ministers, who had gone too far, or not
far enough. They had excited the fears and the
Protestants of Ireland, which they could not easily appease,
and they had excited the hopes of the Roman Catholics with
this Bill, which he did not believe they intended to realise.
Before he sat down, there was one other point to which he
would wish to advert. He would wish to remind the House
and the Government that they were now touching on very
tender and dangerous ground.—( Hear.) There were very few
thinking men connected with Ireland, whatever their political
opinions might be, who did r,ot labour under the impression
that their country had long been treated more as a colonial de-
pendency than as an integral portion of the British empire.—
( Hear, and cheers from the Opposition.) So convinces! were
they of this fact, that they were all compelled to admit that
" Divide et Impere" had been the maxim by which they had
long been governed.—(Cheers.) Yes, party against party had
been too long the only rule in that country.—(" Hear, hear,"
from the Opposition.) The only rule then understood in-
variably was, the party of the Government against its oppo-
nents ; and its present state did not much differ, because it was
now the Government party so divided from side to side that
it might be called the Government divided against itself.—

measure.
Mr. NI ACAULAY rose and said—Sir, I have no intention
to fallow the Hon. Gentleman who last sat down into the dis-
cussion of an amendment which really has nothing to do with
the subject under the consideration of the House.—(flear.)
Whenever my Hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield thinks it
expedient to propose to us his motion on the subject which he
has so often introduced to the notice of the House, I may per-
haps require the indulgence of the House whilst I offer my opi-
nions. At present it is sufficient for me to explain my
vote on the second reading of this Bill, and I think
I cannot do better than to review, as rapidly as
I can, the objections which have been urged in and out of
this House against them. I think these objections for the
greater part may be ranged under three distinct classes. In
the first place, a large body of persons who it would seem did
not until now object to the grant to Maynooth, object to the
proposed increase. There is a second class, a large and re-
spectable body, who object to any grant whatsoever. They op-
pose the grant as well as the increase. They conceive that we
are not justified as individuals or a Government in supporting the
Pill. I must say that my opinion is, that they who voted
for the grant of 9,0001., are hound to vote for the higher grant
of 26,000/., and I shall be surprised, though it may not
be in keeping with Parliamentary tactics, that those who vote
for the 9,0001. this year should vote against it next. To the
principle of any public erant I do most decidedly object, but I
cannot understand on what principle they act who, while voting
for the 9,0d0/., object to any increase of that grant for the
sake of rectifying the errors of which they complain. They
may object to the claim of the Catholic Church, as be-
ing a Church teaching a system of error, but I cannot
understand how they can object to an increase of
the grant which Parliament has yearly voted for the
imperfect development of a principle which that same
Parliament has year by year allowed and advocated. You
iney condemn that establishment as teaching errors, but if you
have once voted for its support, you cannot at least condemn its
rites as superstitious.—( Hear, hear. ) You may shrink from
upholding Maynooth in all its ancient splendour, but if you do
so, you are at least bound to provide it with the means of
carrying that splendour into effective exercise.—( Hear, hear.)
You must not give to the able and effective minister of truth,
that which you would be ashamed to offer to your groom.
You are now called upon to make a grant which is worse than
that which you give to the Irish common soldier. You expect
to have your homestead calm, and vet you are anxious that the
pigs should rejoice in their stye. If you do really desire to do
good to the Catholic Church, why not do so effectually—why
question the propriety of giving 26,000/. when you have al-
ready given 9,900/. for the same object ? If you are to sup-
port the Roman Catholic establishment respectably, at least
give them the means of obtaining that respectability without
ing dependent on your will or the caprice of a
Government, and if the matter is important, it is worthy of
immediate and instant consideration. Do you expect that a
religion like this is to be counted as a matter of course? Do you
think that this is to move as a matter of course? Do you
think that this high and holy work is tr be promoted as a matter
of duty—the cultivation of this 20,000 individuals? You have
your noble cathedrals and lofty windows, your stained glass
and all your affluent appliances, to make your religion honour-
able at present, and useful for the future. I have no desire to
restrict the principle of endowing established communities, and
therefore it is that I support a Bill which, like this, is most
likely to secure the welfare of the lower classes. It is well
known that the conduct of the universities in this country is
most likely to excite the sense of injustice with which the
servitors of Oxford and the sizars of Cambridge are implicated.
You have your Margaret of Anjou, your Margaret of Rich-
mond; you have your founders of colleges ; and what a result
do you arrive at? You come to the end of the story ; you arrive
at the conclusion that all your royal colleges have to be supported
on the principle of Dotheboys Hall. There was, it is true, a con-
tract with the Irish Parlament, but how was that contract
ever fulfilled? By a disregard of all principle, a shirking of
all obligation, anti an utter contempt for equity and truth.
There are some who object to the grant to Maynooth, on the
principle that it is entirely needless, from its entire exoneration
from all claims of social and civil polity. To these I will only
say, what is the difference between 9,009/. a-year arid
26,000/ ? I must come to the point as to what doctrines will
be preached by the Church of Rome, and I am satisfied that
a charge will be made upon ter that she teaches error. If she
does teach sueh errors it is plainly evident that those
errors are the result of the system which has in this country
been imposed upon her ; and it should further be remembered
that in the inculcation of truth there is an obligation, in
sonic instances, far above the law, and that inculcation would
lead every one to appreciate his position in the social circle,
and enable him to arrive at a point, if he could arrive at all, in
which his doubts should be resolved and his hesitation be con-
cluded. You havehcard something of Church extension, and
while I desire to see that extension promulgated to its utmost
limits, I at the same time repudiate whatever errors there may
be in the Church of Rome, and acknowledge my fealty to
what I conceive to be the despotic Government of the Church
of England. Yet while acknowledging this despotic govern-
ment, I cannot, at the same time, appeal against those powers
which would render any Government the conservators of
public morals. With respect to the errors of the Church of
Reme, I will beg to say that I prefer that there should be the
religion of the Church of Rome rather than no religion at all,
and I think that while that religion is acknowledged, it is a
duty of the State to support it in its integrity.
Well, then, what arc you to do which may conduce to their
religious benefit ? Will any man, after the last twenty years
only of experience, think, that by keeping away this grant, you
will give an impulse to the Protestant religion ? If any man
thinks so, I think he ought to vote against the present mea-
sure.—( Hear.) But I do not think so.—(Cheers.) The
considerations which I have stated satisfy me ; and, although
ni propagate error is not my wish, what I say is, that I think
it better that Christianity with any form is better than the en-
tire absence of religious instruction.—( Hear, hear.) Although
I do not approve of that form, which has a strong influence
upon the people of Ireland, yet I think that if we
cannot in any other way provide for the religious instruction of
that people, it is better to confer upon them this boon, even in
spite of the error.—( Cheers.) I think that there is great
force in the argument against the State endowment of the
Church of Rome. Yet I think that if that is to be taken as a
general rule, the argument in favour of the voluntary system
does apply to this case, which ought to be an exception.—
(Cheers.) For in that island, with a population of eight
millions, a Church with a population of little more than 800,000,
possesses a million of revenue—the income of its archbishops
alone exceeding 70,0001.—( Hear, hear.) You have at the
same time, in the north of Ireland, an endowment in another
form.—( Hear, hear.) But you have in the back ground,
four-fifths of the population, without any assistance from
the State—( Hear, hear)—and theirs is the religion for which
all the original endowments were intended.—(Cheers.) This
is a case quite by itself. I was astonished to hear Gentlemen,
amongst others the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury—say that,
after passing this measure, it would be impossible to resist
lie claim of the Wesleyan Methodists of England to a similar
endowment.—(t° Hear, hear," from the Tory benches.) Well.
you think so.—( Hear, hear.) But are the cases analogous?
Is there the slightest resemblance ?—( Hear, hear. ) There
are sixteen millions of people in Great Britain —are there
thirteen millions of Wesleyan Methodists?—( Cheers. )
Yet you have a Church in Ireland, with a revenue of a million
and a half—you have the Presbyterian Church, with a State
endowment—and the Wesleyan Methodists have 100,000/. left
to the followers of John Wesley, and you exclaim against a
"rant of 06,000/. for educating the clergy of four-fifths of the
;hole population.—(Cheers.) Bring me the case of the
Wesleyan Methodists, and I shall know how to deal with it.—
( Cheers anti a laugh.) But here is a case which could not
occur in England, in France, or in Prussia, nor in any country
not situated like Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) It could lee
only in the case of a weaker country connected
with a more powerful one, which has abused its
power to enable the minority to triumph over the majority.
—( Cheers. ) Having placed Ireland in such a position as this—
nothing like which could exist elsewhere—and whilst those
touthater edg—relattheinnkdiiitw
iisneinintismsinsibtlheatforcoyunnutrtyo
meet exlst athned are pe
case
ofrpthee-
Irish Roman Catholics by saying, when you are asked to
add 17,000/. to the grant already conceded—" We are against
any endowment at all."—(Cheers.) The question may remain
to be settled at a future stage, whence is this endowment to
come? What (untie are the most appropriate ?—(Cheers. )
But I do not go into that now.—(Hear, hear.) In the first
place, it seems to be perfectly clear, that if you have
no scruple about the 9,000/. which you have
' hitherto granted, you can have none against the
increase. It seems to sne, in the next place, im-
possible to maintain the voluntary principle, unless the State
and individuals desist to give endowments for religious pur-
poses at all, or make any efforts for the propagation of truth.
0 Therefore, when I see the ease of a country in which other
; religions are endowed, and the religion which the majority of
0 the people believe to be the best, and which alone they
will adopt, left without assistance, I consider the case one
of the most morbid anomaly.—( Hear, hear.) I think,
t therefore, that, from every motive, we are bound to,
make this concession to the Roman Catholics of Ireland.—
(Cheers.) Those were the chief observations I had to
make on the merits of the measure itself. But there
is another class of objections which have been forced upon us.
' On the first night of the debate, we were called on to resist
this measure, because it was brought forward by men who
could not do so with personal honour, or with credit as public
' men.—( Hear, hear.) We have heard the same argument
again brought forward. But I think this is a question which should
not be brought into consideration. I do not think that the
measure should be weighed by any consideration of party, with
respect to the conduct of public men. I think it right
that we should pass good laws, and that public men should
seem
innhaye fixed principles.—(Loud and continued cheer-
' trig.) I think that public men should seem to have
principles, and to be guided by those fixed
principles in office and in opposition.—(lmmense cheers.)
it is most desirable that it should not appear to the world that
the mere change of situation should produce a complete chango
' in the policy of public men.—(Cheers and counter. cheers. )
But I do not think it needs any argument to prove that if the
particular measure be good, and it may yet be viewed in con-
nexion with the former conduct and professions of those who
introduced it—this should lower them in public estimation.—
(Cheers.) Yet our course is clear. We are to distinguish
between the men and the measure.—(Cheers. We ought to
adopt the measure for its intrinsic merits, whilst
of tha authors we might speak in such forms of
censure as the occasion called for.—( Hear, hear.)
In such form of censure, I feel bound to speak.—( Hear.) I
bear no personal hostility to any man, and the political hostility
which I entertain, I avow. I believe the Right Honourable
Baronet has the qualifications of an excellent Alinister—that he
possesses great talents for finance, and for the management of
this House, that he has great industry, great knowledge, and a
full determination to carry on the Government of the country
in the best manner for the interest of the Crown and the
people.—( Hear, hear.) But I cannot deny that those who, in
spite of bitter experience, a second tone have trusted him and
raised him to power, now find themselves a second time de-
luded.-_( Great cheering.) It is impossible to deny it has
been too much the habit of the Right Honourable

(" Hear, hear," from the Ministerial side.) But, 0. late' tea este
many attempts had been made by those who ought to has; fro
the last to make them, to scatter the minds of such In es es.
the right direction, and distract their intellects, to Such smpre.
tent, that they were now almost incapacitated from 0;100
hending the evil consequences of such a system..-4 d and
The national character of Irishmen had been deterierate,fro
their public spirit had become almost extinct.—(" geadrss sighl
the Opposition.) Their unpolitical interests had been 1 .nar.
of—their noble resources forgotten or neglected their
laws, their every public institution neglected or laid %ea
the;r position as a nation lowered, and their honour sacn„,,ss
to measures of imperial policy.—(Loud cheers from the ,best
sition.) Even the last remnant of royalty left the
Lord-Lieutenant, had become so great an object of info ,triV,
that it had nearly ceased to dazzle—( Hear. hear)—freiss
Castle of Dublin was now very little better than a regi'rr,,,
court for the behests of the Home-office of this conni,„ol
(" Hear, hear," from the Ministerial benches.) Then b° ,""stes
say let the British Government and the Imperial Lee,,,est
beware lest they at length form the Irish nation into one No
bond of union for the expression of a general feeling bgi
content.--( Hear, hear.) For those reasons the!, be
'e, be
offered, and not wishing to trespass longer on the roll
would give this measure his most cordial opposition. Id 04
Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT hoped the House would
the
think it presumptuous in him, at this late hour 'OOO
night, if, on account of the speeches be had heard, here,soos
endeavour to convey, in as few words as possible, his
for voting fur this measure. But he did conceive it sr ~;At
duty to say a few words in answer to the speech of the
std
Hon. Gentleman the Member for Edinburgh, and also
the Member for Dublin, on the measure now before tb„e„ Hos.
and at the tenor of which he was perfectly astonished. 1%0
Member for Edinburgh, in his speech, which, like al' to is
that fell from him, was brilliant in language and Petrol)
argument, had adduced many reasons which he (Nlr. ISO!!
coeceived were reasons for passing this rneasure.—",_ the
hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman had shown that is
measure there was no principle involved.—(Cries of ;jot
hear," from the Opposition.) Nothing could be moriosis
than that such was the effect of the Right Hon. Gee,t,,, lb°
argument ; and if so, he would wish to know, then, "" „rir
measure could be called so great a violation of publierprd
ciple ?—( Hear, hear, and laughter.) He (Mr• ilecsarga
could not see what there was in this measure to 0,
the present Government with dereliction of principle.--nori,
hear.) In every year that this subject was brought "tele;
those who now belonged to the Government then suPPars
and if so why should they now oppose it?—( Hear, Bear of ths
Hon. Member then alluded to passages in the speech "1140
Right Hon. Member for Dublin, and having quoted theleto
went on to say, that the result of that had been to tbronto
Catholic interests into the hands of men who had r" Pd
nor stake in the order and tranquillity of Irelenoity
therefore, the Government had seen the neee F
proposing this measure, in order to give tb t
tural instructors of the people an inter° 10.
the State, and to place the peace of Ireland on a firtnersa
The Right Hon. Gentleman behind him, who bad islidssi
against the measure, had taken a course which he (IgrLA
Herbert) could not understand. While his speech P'6llll
tainly been aainst the esue proposed by Governme_lo4
arguments were entirely m
ina itsr favour. He argued hlllwbs'
in favour of this measure, for he showed that other cotinVol,
munificently endowed their Catholic clergy. If there
allow a grant at all, why not at once give a liberal en_sorr
knew that they had been told that night to take this 3%0,0'
ing that this measure would not have the effect ti
He He was fully prepared for the next year, and the riosi sra
and even the succeeding year, to find that this Billvi;wi,
be a successful measure, but the House must bear int' en
all good laws operated at first but slowly, although "10.9",,,
might be permanent good to the interest they were. AT,
to benefit. He was anxious, however humble his
erse
and however feeble his arguments might be cord! to Ord
was anxious that whatever might be the odium, ersote.,"
popularity, or the responsibility that attached to this rnf, fain,
good or evil, to share in it, and for this mason alone o_ooo/
higher, he troubled the House at that late hour of the Iv let
He was not one of those who thought with the Bigtestlr
Gentleman, the Member for the University of Dublinttbol
independent spirit of the Irish would be destroyedb ot rl
sure of the Government. He did not know, inflect'', egilai
Right Hon. Gentleman meant by this independea'^
Ireland. Surely measures calculated to give them
an
is'
education, and to spread abroad a more liberal feeliegs;
not be expected to destroy this Irish spirit. It ttesel,6l
pendent spirit, the Right Honourable Gentleman $
spirit of party—which unfortunately then existed to osr,,
degree—he would inform the Right Honourableo. efS
man that the Government asked for no big
planent than the having destroyed this indeperbet he
~.rfs
—(Cheers.) And such a result he thought ring „la
,"Ifs
prophesied, for no Gentleman in that House n,erogris
listened to the speeches of the Irish Members witheepli,d:"
struck by the altered tone of their speeches They"
.41
of the party feelings, they heard none of thos* of reij
appeals to religious feelings which were the disgrace„t
.11,705
debates. He trusted that the Governmer.,o9,
receive kern Irish Gentlemen that co-operation alles"iell Ast
without which the best measures would most eer dierri
His firm conviction was, that the measure was so sot; csofit
cinle and policy, and so calculated for the good a 67i eirilto
ireland, that he felt bound to give it his support."'
5 in the motion of Mr. BERESFORD, the debate
adjourned till to-morrow. B_llll9
The Justices Clerks and Clerks of the Pea- to
through Committee, and was ordered to be read a
to-morrow. .4110",/
On the motion of Mr. LYALL the following efil
were appointed a Select Committee on Commercialif
Mr. Lyall, Mr. Gladstone, Viscount Sandon, Alra' '51.40
Sir William Clay, Mr. Liddell, Mr. Bingham -7" IP-so
Stuart Wortley, Captain Gladstone, Mr. Hutt, 141.'00
Baring, Mr. Ross, Mr. Dennistoun, Mr. Wayin'
Barclay.
SMOKE PROHIBITION.
On the motion of Mr. MACKINNON, the 7„seds
mittee on the Smoke Prohibition Bill was apP'7ooo/ tlt
sisting of the following Members :—Mr.
Beckett, Viscount 11 Newry, Mr. Brotherton, Mr. r 9,
Earl of Lincoln, Mr. Octavius Duncombe, Lord Frilanordted
ton, Mr. William Henry Bodkin, Mr. Ewart,
Mr. Hindley, Mr. Protheroe, Mr. Ricardo, and '
"'"
Williams.

PRISONS (SCOTLAND). Coool,
On the motion of Mr. EDWARD ELLICr"'
on Prisons ( Sco!land) was appointed. consistin„
rofool
Ellice, jun., the Lord Advocate, Mr. Home Drum Air
Rutherford, Mr. Forbes Mackenzie, Mr. Nlicanizorbet.l
ming Bruce, Mr. Gibson Craig, Mr. William mr. P. a'
Loch, Mr. Henry Stuart, Mr. Patrick Stewart,
the
0_ 0.10,
Mr. Hussey, and Mr. Antrobus.
Mr. ROBERT SCOTT obtained leave to bring
_10:i
to declare valid assignments and surrender of chattm,
in real property made in certain cases. 1115
ADJOURNMENT OF THE DEB ATE ON
NOOTH GRANT BILL. int'
Sir R. PEEL said he presumed it was underloosla
debate was adjourned to to-morrow (this day),o"
precedence of the notices of motion. bb
croi,
Mr. BOUVERIE, on behalf of Mr. Ward, 014
doubt his Hon. Friend intended to give way as '
notice of motion. dotig'r
Dr. BOW RIN G also gave way as regardod his
The House then adjourned, at Half.past Twelve'
COAL MARKET. Ale
~j 0!
Prices per ton at the close of the market y
15s; Buddle's West Hartley, 16s ; Garr'siar 1611)pil:
Chester Main, 15s 3d; Davison's West Hartley' all JP;
Tanfield, 14s; Hasting's Hartley, 15s 9d; totirt,4
Ifis ; Morrison's Hartley, 14s • Nelson's West
New Tanfield, 14s 6d ; Old 'Pontop, 14s 6d ;,,. fr,LF
heugh, 13s 6d; Pontop Windsor, 14s 6d; Pott't'op,lo
14s ; Shipcote, unscreetied, 13s 3d ; Smith's r°,ll; ,
Taylor's West Hartley, 16s ; Townley, 15s ; 1' Vey,
16s; West Wylam, 15s 6d; Wylam, 15s 3d; li0;01,j;
Bell and Brown, 16s 6d ; Robson, 15s 6d ; Gib5,%6,13,.0r
forth, 16s 6d; Killingworth, 15s 6d ; Walker, 1,:e11_44
dell's Hetton, 18s 9d ; East Hetton, 16s; 31.011
Hetton, 18s 6d; Hylton, 16s; Lambton, icra'gr PAar
15s 9d ; New Hetton Lyons, 16s ; Richmond,
Hetton, 18s ; Stewart's, 18s 3d ; Caradoc, 1t3!;00 ,15;
18s 9d; Heugh Hall, 16s ; Kelloe, 175; Pmrelo,
17s 6d; South Kelloe, 17 ; Trimdon, 175 3d; "WolL6lol
Cowndon Tees, 168 3d ; Eden Hartlepool, 17,; at
'
M'Lean's Tees and Witton Park, mixed, 155. V3`" tt rtle'
41g
15s; Brynly hand picked, 21s; Derwentwater O
40/
Hartley, 15s 6d; Llangennech, 21s ; Lewiss 1,10
Powell's Duffryn Steam, 22s 6d West Hartle.'
16s.—Ships arrived 229.

SI!

Ne -in vented Spectacles, TelescollfoitC
Glasses, Microscopes, &c. The artificial aidhlep-00l
the sight by Lenses, is one of the most valilauo
rived from science, and it is indeed of vital !citiy,
that the adoption of Spectacles to imperfee's,
be regulated on proper principles. Afessrs'ireenir
bolomons, 39, Albemarle-street, Piccadilly, —bole
posite the York Hotel, having devoted their 0,0,06
to this branch of science, and their long e%telPsesliros°'
tice, have enabled them to invent Spectacle Leiii bQ
new construction, which have gained universa r
tion. Immediately they are placed beforebefbagYi
vi.ion, that mist and dullness which apPea,,r t
~ir
eyes is at once removed, every nbr-ii
c!ear and distinct, so that the most age"'tief
sight becomes bright and brilliant, and is br° 00/4
youthful, natural and original state. Achill( 0°,4
scopes, Opera Glasses, Microscopes, Scc. , FA,
kind of Lenses to surpass any ever inv,en;4 tfo,
Invisible Voice Conductor Sound MagniueVoca:ri;
persons, is not the least perceptible nor more.
hef ea,
able than having a piece of wool in its plaae.:es 01.4
immediate relief to old standing extreme Tail theness. Those valuable inventions have ga""erey:j
qualified approbation of above 400 of the pig° "0
hers of the medical profession. Caution.'veolaepivAl°
and B. Solomons, opticians, are not in any VINO° rtl
with a person of the same name in thortorflo
neighbourhood, nor in any part of the c° coli„
prevent mistakes be cautious, and observe, noir'
had at 39, Albemarle-street, Piccadilly, °13:,,,,/
York lintel.
BIRTHS. f the II
,r
On the 10th inst., at Liverpool, the lady 1
Iliff, of a son. 4L Pl° 11
On the 10th inst., at Hamilton- terrace, ,--
Mrs. Henry Troubrige Wright, of a sun• r the
On the 10th inst., at the Grove, Old Wriadse'
the Rev. R. Lewis Brown, of a daughter.

~12ARRIED.
On the Bth inst., at St. Saviour's, 3-rv, J. -
Evans, to Eliza, fourth daughter of the late Jr. Ch 4
Bankside.
On the Bth inst., at St. Marylebone Churc to 5/.
Cook, of Duke-street, Manchester-squamboo.
fourth daughter of W. Burchett, Esq., of illciluer'
On the 10th inst., at Shadingfield, John of
Bury St. Edmund's, to Anna Maria, daughter
Esq., of Shadingfield Hall, Suffolk.

dd. '
-------:,i 51
DIED. „.00,.., nevi
On the 29th ult., at his residence, 150, voll°l,
Henry Chambers, Esq., Royal Marine Servic,„°;.; fn,"dd
last surviving son of the late William Chet°, r,',.-nerlw4ol,
years effective officer to the Hon. Board or ""di.
and sincerely regretted by his family and frien oar
,ogi
On the 7th of February, at WinterbournF;irs.
.giv
Thomas Selby, Esq., late of the Island of Al'lloo, ,T;•• $l,
On the 3d inst., at Bedford-place, 1311gdPioll/
'
daughter of the late Patrick Anderson Escl'' -f. Cl'i
On the 4th inst , John Crossley, Esq., °
01'
Giles's, Buckinghamshire. -n Dil A 4
On the 9th inst., at Hove, Brighton, mac,c,it. Gs
Captain (unattached), late of the 81st Reit°„.l)o6' 4/
On the 9th inst., at Harbledown, tja°—
Buckley, Esq. gacI;OP ji,
On the 10th inst., at Ward's House,
_id,
Warty, Esq., aged 76. std
..zi
On the 11th inst., in Mary-street, Ilar°P'
ti,099-
00
thias von Hoist, 86.
YOL 9, 9l
$ si
',lilted 'nd eubl4ghaci by Milnto3,ttotO
The Suu .: the '-
Strand, in the Precinct of the Savo!, 1—
Middlesex, Tuesday, April 15, 184.5.

L

e toßut, or
gilt to hay hose
f such men
, d
from c. to such an
re'
„
Hear, he': ti
deteriorated:ft:o
13 Hear
lad been lost •
cted—their
d or laid
honour sac p°'
:
s front the ucit
left thent,!,,,
kject of infaro4l:
r. bear)—an!,lo,
;ban a registo".,
if this coulltriA
. ) Then he tr,r;.
penal Legol..7oi
;ion into tgle
oral feeling ° bpi
,cs that he 1,6
on the Horse,
rosition. of
pot
House yr° the
late bosr hOUI4
heard, he reaot
his s hit
nceive it
'each of ,the h
;h, and XIS° ;I:olef
before the 00,
mi.,hed• Th other
Lich, like I rfal is
e and Iwterbert)
he (Mr.
measure. shit
[town that Heir,
.( Cries of e clear
ould be °°l.
Hon. Gel)„,,, ibis
then. 7 din'
on of Pogr[)ert)
(Mr. ii.";harg'
ne3sure tu f eat'
principle •••;oirit
brought td it
then suPP°r Tbe
' Hear, hear''i th
th d
the epee° w the.
quoted tee
men to tboert/
o had to Pr Old'
nd;
of INA ity
the 10ce,51:,;
Ole
an mtereit
I on a firmer
polo
who had Clod
eh he (Mr'
speech hP't,
Governme° bil
argued by s.noti
other cottotrol'er,ii
If the)" 9
•
. liberal relea'.orr
ake this 0. .
effect anr-ct/afterg
id the Ye''l,l n';
his Bill a'o J, tb"
bear in to_ht: re' llt!
Llthougb
hey were Bodt ;
urnble 61,130
be con'idetrbe
odium, Dr
eoure,,
to this ro., capor
,
on alone tleepio,
our of t,
th the It.Vbai Pt,
of Dublin.ot
troyed by ott
indeed, `*.eitl
J
c j
itle e n de"t
e them ancoVr
>eral feel rier',
ipd
t• lf, bI asat,„l,ll
itleina" ea
r
exist '" Geo, ,
onnoo hurahilaeh tI
ercoi:,:td,
Indepe"dbt be tor
ight
House e° bei
ithou iro
vi
abets d
he it
TheY erge' tr
,f those of 0,1
e disgrace: 00;
overninen sotOit,
,tio.• „,
_ and
taw,
most err dip Pis
tas so or et,
ood of t"filest.'il
Ipport.---t 0,0
he debate
itto
poacellilti°l
a third 0
read 01
• gen!'ee/
following foo
• l
nmercia chap
on, 31r• jog ;100
gilani Ttljr,
311."0,1
r. Wavvri,
fayr
• ~et
tho
as aPrn" flea, 'OO
3lackg
n, Mr: `jcis 1.0
Lord I'roith°!,o
it 11/03
•o, 'and Mr.
11 Jli
tro
ti)'
heCot
of 0,,
nsi~ting
ae Drui Jr
utican...or.b„
e.,
Y
evvart, Alt.
eto bring ir•lnitaer"
of abattie
iIA
'sON °h.'
L. tba tit
0,4
undo's; 000
ay),and had o°3
-ard, said be
eriad
ray reo
IA his o°tio°'
Twelve'
.1.1/0 10'
'
cet :
trr's
Hartle7'ollrjit
Holl..tleP
West 143),1.J.5
Is 6d ; ,s prt3ta
pots 1 ale
pont7'llsll:
15s;
5s
Gi3d ; 17s ;);rja
bs,°lj;6tl:,,
;k Has° 141°r"
)n, ; ,
tond, 1"11sVli
• 183' _4057;:
Les' tiv
7s ; pire,y
's 3d ;
179; th 4'10:
5 • Son rilefl' sll'
,"
sit
water ,bff,
:s, ger, Ne
.14
Oifto
▪ eg,
!lescor
!la
• aiii 'lO ce
valt !'"itop 'bole
' vita
,„3i00',3
orfect 0;s, or
jessrs'direcY
dilly, oc'
I their " irOC 001
-- ti
ro,
;acle lie, 0110 i
uiverss` isle OE
before 'for'',
,co
appear bi.
r`objeci
d I
tai
t age ' gb
• bro .c
,d is au
chr°f 410 be.
A o C _
I ventev.fOr iotV
ago].
fierl, col t
itrld
.4 ",
,r more "tbelj
; place ;ea of 110'
me cas tP
ye gine.l `
„a-
ti
;he pri- go, et ,
y•
Viaf.oll;
n
the c°- op
-0, ..0 tb
bs>4ll
billy, ey
_------
tdy of t 0 Se
b
ce, st. J°llll'
• di3or,
VI 2
Mr. J,l lel
Ate Mr' Oil"
01
,bur C-h , stt pi
tO
;are,
ortt, prop
;bter of ,
A SVA°
er
Str4o„pg
rvice'rY, Pirdee
nmbe
friet•
tl4peer
o
urne,, ogor
olt.
'lll/uhtolitotle°
13'g of P'4,110
:SCP'o f Cb
...L.,
Da ,idD° doff
t.
neubnri'
Ante
gackileP A Di"
r'
sto--
O eift
Ok of
300 e, 031 f
in Okc.
▪ iri