The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-24 00:00:00

the Right Hon. Baronet opposite ( Sir J. Graham), with the
full consent of many Gentlemen i i her Majesty's Council, and
whatever lion. Gentlemen may thisik of the Refirm Bill, it
was one of those points upon which the two parties were at
issue. He would venture to say that, from first to last,
if there was a single article of the union which
ought to be considered more fundamental and inviolable than
another, it was that which settledithe comparative numbers of
the two parties to the measure who were to sit in that House.
He therefore treated the objection to the article of the
union as frivolous. But even if the article of the union was
all that the defenders of the Established Church asserted for
it, did that prove the Established Church to be a good thing ?
—( Hear, hear.) Then he heard something about the Catholic
oath. Well, supposing even that that oath ought to be taken
in the spirit in which many persons considered it should, did
that prove that the Established Church in Ireland was a good
thing?—(Hear, hear.) When lie was told that Roman Ca-
tholic laymen and prelates, when they were struggling to be
relieved from the disabilities which pressed upon them, had no
objection to see the Protestant Church continue, could any
proof be derived from that, that the Protestant Established
Church was best for that country ? ( Hear, hear. )
Then there were objections to the form of the motion. It
was said that was an inconvenient time to more the quest ion.
These were merely accidental objections ; but were there any
arguments to show that this was a good institution? Then
again—but he was almost ashamed to notice such an argument
—the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland—
he was surprised that the Right Hon. Gentleman should have
made use of it—said " that if you adopted this motion you
would unsettle the security of all landed property." Did not
the Right lion. Gentleman see the great difference between
property in which some person had a vested interest, and pro-
perty in which no party hail a vested interest ?—( Hear, hear. )
The Right Hon. Gentleman might as well have said that in 1817,
when that House resolved prospectively to abolish the offices of
auditor and teller of the Exchequer, that they were going to
unsettle all the vested and funded property in the country,
unless when Lord Granville died an auditor of the Exchequer
was appointed to succeed him to do nothing, or when Lord Camden
died that some person should be appointed as teller to do no-
thing.—(Cheers and laughter.) There was, then, a wide dis-
tinction between the two cases—a distinction which he felt con-
fident the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite ( Sir Robert Peel)
at least would fully recognize. But, after all, what were they
doing but shifting and evading the question? Had they heard
in that House one word as to treating this subject in the only
way in which it ought to be treated by any statesmanF—
( Hear, hear. ) Had they ever heard any person say
the Established Church was a good institution ? Did it answer
any one of the purposes for which an established church ought
to be instituted? Had they ever heard that? Had they heard it,
or anything of the kind to-night? Did any divine, did any
speculative writer, did any person who ever wrote in defence of
an established church, put it upon any grounds in which the
Church of Ireland, as it now existed, could be supported ?
( Hear, hear.) Why, there was not a single ground on which
the defenders of an established church supported such an insti-
tution, which was not a satire on the Established Church of Ire-
land. There was not a single authority for an established church,
come from where it might, whether from Protestant or Catholic,
Conservative or Liberal, from a divine of the Church of Eng-
land, or a divine of the Church of Scotland, from which it
could not be shown that the Irish Church was so great an
abuse that it could hardly be conceived how it existed.—
( Hear, hear.) Was anything to be found like it in the whole
world ? Was there an instance to be found except Ireland,
where the Church of the minority was established in opposi-
tion to the great mass of the people? Such a case was only to
be found amongst themselves. From the While Sea
to the Mediterranean, from the Volga to the
Atlantic, there was no where an instance of a great
establishment being given to a small minority. From
Mormonism in America to Mahomedanism in Asia, it was not
to be found. In some places there was the voluntary system, in
several places there was a church connected with the State, in
other places there were churches receiving pay which were not
in connexion with the State, but in no place except Ireland did
the church of the minority enjoy its establishment. In Eng-
land, the Established Church was the Church of the majority.
In Scotland, the Established Church was the Church of the
majority. He did not know whether it was so now, but, at all
events, it was not the Established Church of a small minority.
In their colonies they had done much for religion, but even
those dependencies of the British Crown where the people were
attached to obscene and bloody auperstitions, they did riot
establish a church for the minority. Whoever thought of
parcelling out Bengal and the Carnatic into curacies ? There
was only one country in the whole world which presented the
spectacle of a population of eight millions of people endowing
an Established Church for eight hundred thouaand.—(Cheers.)
He had heard it argued at other times, and that night, that
the prosperity and intelligence of the country belonged to those
who professed the Protestant faith. That went directly the
other way. He could conceive only two cases in which pro-
perty aught to prevail over numbers. One of those cases was
where the object of the institution was the preservation of
property—for instance, in a railway company the man who had
five hundred shares ought reasonably to have more votes than five
persons who had hut one share each. The other case was
where you wished to have a qualification to jndge of a man's
intellect. As a test of the intelligence of men, such a qualifi-
cation was indeed the only test that could be applied in certain
cases. That was the reason, he apprehended, why, in certain
cases which required a higher intelligence and greater judg-
ment, they selected special jurors in the place of the ordinary
common jurors ; but none of these cases applied to a Church
Establishment.—( Cheers.) So far from that being the fact,
when you institute a church, you ought not to think of one
rich man being equal to five poor men, but of one poor man
being equal to five rich men—( Heir, hear)—for, in the first
place, the public ordinances of religion were of more import-
ance to a poor man than a rich man. He did not deny the im-
portance of those ordinances to men of all ranks ; but the cir-
cumstances in which the rich man was placed—his being able
to have recourse to the best works on the subject of divinity,
being able to hold communion with the minds of such men as
Barrow, Leighton, and Hooker, rendered those ordinances of less
importance to him than to the poor man. The poor man had no
such books, and even if he had, he had no time to read them, and
they would be of no more advantage to him than to a Hottentot.
The difficulty was, in the case of the poor man who had no
other food than potatoes for himself and family, but was yet
obliged to sell his pig in order to pay the religious teacher.—
( Hear, hear.) He was in favour of an Established Church
himself. He thought there were great evils in the voluntary
system. If not prepared to take the same view of the volun-
tary system as many of his Hon. Friends—it was not for the
sake of Lords and Baronets, wealthy merchants and country
gentlemen—they would have whatever religious teaching they
wanted—they would have churches.' cathedrals, organs, com-
munion plate, and all that conferred dignity and pomp on re-
ligious worship—it was not such as these he pitied, but the
poor man who, out of his hard earnings, was obliged to pay ss.
a year to the Church. Cries of " Hear, hear.")
Take the alternative. Would they have him go
without religious instruct ion altogether? That would
be a great calamity, not only to himself but to society. Was
he, then, to pay for it ? All must say it would be a great hard-
ship from an income so moderate.—(Hear, hear.) Was it to be
derived from charity ? That was a most precarious and most
humiliating mode of supporting a Church. Ile thought it was
most desirable that throughout the country, from one end to
the other, even in its remotest parts, there should be houses
of worship where the great body of the people could be reli-
giously instructed, and would have a priesthood to which they
could have ready access, not as a matter of favour, hut as a mat-
ter of right.—( Hear, hear.) But did that apply to the
Church of Ireland ? In arguing about the English
Church, the advocates of the voluntary system opposed
it, because of the nature of its foundation. They urged
many arguments against it, whilst its advocates urged
many in its favour ; but, on the whole, he thought the pre-
sduari,,
eo
ht English nuo gruel, st letr
opCfol
sulirrnecglha.nwd;Bi
gahittt
sw—hwaeanlsl
fhpooeur ncit rmat
enh
ce
thereto was
aw•rags inen
of againsta
hv
ll
the weights were in same
uttlialitigiceabicenh suut
church
hlds, scale.—( aoil
Irf
ish
e(
defending Hear,.o wealthy—that
auiti h,hyte—h—a
erat
e
afdi
feel "Lot hear.)
Churchnlsc‘'ti
rtt
the
rchurchEnglandgumno arguments
swt
howuel
h
which, reversing every principle on which a Christian church
ought to be founded, " filled the rich with good things, and
sent the hungry empty away. "—( Hear, hear.) But there
was another end which it was urged this Church would
attain. It was admitted that it did not administer instruc-
tion to the great body of the people, but it advanced to an-
other end. What was it? I was a proselitising church. The
people were not yet Protestant, but the Church would make
them so. At present there were but shepherds, but it was
said the shepherds would find for themselves flocks.
Ho had heard that same argument ten or twelve
yeers ago, when a proposal was made to reduce the number of
Irish bishops. The Hon. Gentleman the Member for the
University of Oxford then made use of a remarkable phrase,
which he well recollected, " We must make allowance for the
expansive force of Protestantism."—( Laughter.) And the
Hon. Gentleman further added that " Bishops may be now
too many, but they will be soon too few." The Noble
Lord the Member for Dorsetshire said the other night, speak-.
iug of the missionary character of the Church of Ireland, for
he said that Church had a missionary character, that it was in
such a position as soon to spread the Protestant faith through-
out Munster and Connaught. He must say that if this lan-
guage had been held in the Councils of Queen Elizabeth he
couid conceive there would be some reason in it—if Sir William
Cecil or Sir Nicholas Bacon were called in to discuss the ques-
tion he could conceive their entertaining such opinions,
and using such terms —they might say " We have
but a few Protestants in Ireland now, but we, who
know how rapidly the Protestant faith spreads—
we, who remember when Martin Luther first
began to preach in Wurtemberg, and now see one-half of Eu.
rope embracing Protestant opinions—we, therefore, expect
that Protestantism will be speedily diffused throughout every
part of the sister country, and that it will soon become the
Church of the people, in fact, as well as in this country." Such
might have been the sentiments of Cecil and his colleagues,
and they might have been excused for such reasoning, but
when this Church had existed in Ireland from 1560 to 1845
when they had before them the experience of 285 years, it
seemed incredible to him how gentlemen of ability could hold
such language.—( Hear, hear.) And what could he done for
a church that had not been done for this church? Had it not
been loaded with honours and dignities—had it not been fenced
and protected, up to a late period, even by penal laws—and
as to money, was there ever on the face of the
earth a set of rectors who received so much for doing so little
—or a set of bishops and rectors who received half so much
for doing twice as much duty ?---(Hear. hear.) And after all
what had they to show : —The most zealous Roman Catholic
population on the face of the earth.—(Loud cries of " Hear,
hear.") Where the Protestants were 200 years ago, there
they were still—( Hear, hear.) They had not only failed in
trampling over the domain of the Old Faith, but their business
was to maintain their own pale. The Roman Catholics were
still ten to one against the members of the Established Church.
—( Hear, hear.) Now, he should like to ask lion. Gentle-
men opposite, whose zeal for Protestantism was so great, to
what could they impute this grand failure:? If he were to
speak of it as a Roman Catholic might be supposed to do, he
might exclaim, " The divine protection has preserved our
Church from great danger, and the same Pro-
vidence that turned the curses of the Prophet
into blessings, and destroyed the Assyrian host, will render our
Church victorious over all the policy of eminent statesmen."
But what further arguments were used—that the tenets of Pro-
testantism were unknown for a long period to the Catholic
people of Ireland; but during ten generations of men they had
remained the same. Yet, notwithstanding Scripture and rea-
son were on their side—they had, he repeated, Scripture, rea-
son, and wealth and power on their side, over a naked, destitute,
and oppressed people. Tho Catholics of Ireland were not
Catholics—not
which Catholics
the m
Protestanterely i nn a
faithn e.
existed, in which Roman Catholic doctrines were so tenaciously
and so generally held as in Ireland? After 300 years they
mwearse ly
there lukewarm m
in Europe in
anyewa r
country
could boast of little; more than an array of bishops, deacons,
and rectors. But this was the natural consequence of the
of Government, to perform its work and
as the mere machinery
either loved or hated—just on the
which theyyursued—it flowed from treating a Church
manner, whither loved or
which was to work on in the same
Manchester were dialiked, but they
hated. The yeomanry
policyattain its end without being c
in
same principle as the- army, or the navy, or tin poliee force,
do in Ireland Th
. ey forced a
thdir end. What did they
They uered country. posted them in
Lostile Church on a conq
continued their operations, dispersed the popu ace, and fulfilled
t h a they were oved or hated proselytises it wa
It did not matter whet e.
so with the Church. The Church attempted to
he same manner as their garrisons. l Garrisons were natural.
not
tt
it failed. He must observe that parochial clergy were not
rines, they mu t all
ht hoew fie
vt teers tthfo4 mmaigkhintgdciffoenrverertgsardin. Tgh
its doct Church of Rome, which,

consideration. he conceived, was the only way in which he
could explain what occurred to his mind upon the subject. lie
looked upon this as ore of the most serious questions that
could occupy the attention of Parliament ; he conceived that
State policy demanded that it should be carried out, and legis-
lative price plea did not, forbid it. He had been reading over
some public documents recently upon the subject of the Irish
church, and he hail found by them that sums of money, to the
amount of H. 700,000/., had been granted to the Episcopal
Church in Ii elard, independent of revenues which the Esta-
blishment hail from other sources, within a certain period ;
that the Presbyterians in Ireland had received within the
same petiorl, 866,0 0/. ; but the sum total of the grants made
to she Roman Catholics within the same period was only
365.000/. , for nothing more nor less than the support
of Maynooth. Well. then, the people of Ireland had heard their
religion abused, and this miserable pittance begrudged them,
and- could they in England therefore wonder that. the Irish
people should have a feeling of soreness at the injustice done
them, and that that feeling, should have spread over the country
from one end to the other ?—( Hear, hear. ) He would contend
for it that religion had uothing to do with this question. Reli-
gion did not contradict conscience, though it was founded upon
it. The arguments in its favour might be supernatural, but
they were n t unnatural, or such as should force a Cover-rime t
to an act of injustice. Ile was much struck, on the first, night
of this debate, at what had !taken place in that House.
He had seen petitions from the Dissenters, and from the
towns and from the counties, some few from the Established
Church party ; and, last of all, came the miserable petition
that had been presented from some place in Ulster.—( Hear.
hear.) But yet, when all that display of bigotry and fanatical
passion had subsided and gone down. then there remained that
still small voice within all, which told them they ought to do
justice, to love mercy, walk humbly—not as Protestant ascend-
ancy men, not as violent bigots—but to walk humbly in the
sight of the great Creator of the universe.—( Hear, hear. )
Mr. M. GIBBON said that the lion. Member opposite ap-
peared to have the faculty of seeing further into future results
than the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of her Majesty's
Government. He had said that the day was not far distant
when the Legislature would be compelled to take into consi-
deration the whole question of the Irish Church and Church
property in Ireland, and in that he (Mr. Gibson) fully con•
curred.—( Hear, hear.) lie had heard the Right Honour-
able Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland's speech, and he
should say he was surprised at the Right Honourable
Gentleman's doctrines.—( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon.
Gentleman had spokon of the property of the Irish
Church as a thing most sacred—( Hear, hear) —as a thing par-
taking of Divine origin—and, therefore, was never to be
touched.—( Hear, hear.) In fact, the Right Hon. Gentle-
man's argument amounted to this--that if there happened to
be but ono Protestant in the whole of Ireland. still the pro-
perty of the Irish Protestant Church should remain untouched.
—( Hear, hear.) If such were the Right Hon. Gentleman's
argument. he (Mr. M. Gibson) would wish to know how he
would reconcile the transference of the twenty-five per cent.
Church property from the Church to Irish landlords, which
should have gone to a fund for the benefit of the Irish people?
—( Hear, hear)—or how lie could reconcile the taking the
Church cess out, of the hands of the Protestant clergyman, and
leaving it to the Ecclesiastical Commissioners to administer ?
( Hear, hear.) With regard to the proposition of his lion.
Friend, he would say that they must admit the principle that
Maynonth should he endowed, before the House should be
called upon to the consideration of the question as to what
funds that expense should be defrayed from, because it was
only upon those grounds that he considered that the fee-simple
of the property of the Irish Church was vested in
the State.—( Hear, hear.) He had not had an op-
portunity, on the second rending of the Bill. to
state his views upon giving a permanent endowment to May-
nooth ; but lie quite agreed with the Hon. Member for Stock-
port, that this was neither a religious nor a theological question,
but a question of education, and that upon those grouuds the
Government were justified in making it.—(Hear, hear.) He
did not think that the Government of a country should inter-
fere in matters of religion in taking such a step, or say that
questions of religion should form a ground for refusal, for that
would be adopting the principle that the religion of a country
should form aground for giving or withholding certain civil ad-
vantages.—( Hear, hear.) He conceived that the State had an
interest in the education of all men. He looked upon the
Roman Catholic priests as men, and therefore they should be
educated.—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) He would ask, was
not that the logical deduction ? The Government were not
hound to provide the particular plan of training that the people
should undergo. The State had merely to provide the funds,
and, that done, the public had the advantage by the State having
been the means of raising the moral standard of her Majesty's
snbjects. He contended that there was no system of education
which had not religion more or less mixed up with it ; and
therefore, when the public were taxed for education, they were
also taxed for religious instruction.—( Hear, hear.) As to
the proposition for defraying this expense out of the church
property funds, he would say, he did think it a very just ap-
prot.riation of these funds. The church funds were intended
to be applied to the best uses to which they could be put—the
Government was the party to decide that; but he would say
the very best uses to which they could be put was the advance-
ment of education ; when these were found to be too much
for Protestant purposes, then he could not see why the surplus
should not be appropriated to some useful purpose.—( Hear.)
Hon. Gentlemen opposite who opposed this motion had nut
shown that the Protestant congregations In Ireland had been
increasing; on the contrary, it was well known that they had
been decreasing ; while, on the other hand, the Roman
Catholic congregations ha'd been, year after year, increasing in
Ireland in a largsr ratio than formerly.—(Hear, hear.)
On these grounds, then, he would say that State en-
dowments should not be confined to Protestant establishments.
If the House went minutely into this question, they would
find not only that the great majority of the lower classes; of the
Irish people were Roman Catholics, but that the great bulk of
the peasantry who were Protestants had a leaning to Catholi-
city. lie had heard of one parish in Ireland, in which there
was not one Protestant; but the Protestant rector, expecting
the visitation of the Bishop, to inquire if such was the fact,
borrowed the Roman Catholic congregation from the parish
priest, and thus, when the Bishop arrived, he saw a very
thronged attendance of Protestants in the church.—( Laugh-
ter. ) He believed that ro part of Europe or of the civilised
world could present such an anomaly as the Established
Church in Ireland ; and, do what they would to the contrary,
l
do
, it
and
duyeinsttgi wouldaes
disgrace.—(Hear.)
—esero
ii‘teYt
solved.
sweeping
nt)rogh tembHi cesßa countrywnigsohuv‘t
denise o anaysa.
this
straelodd in g
Irish
seehtooqfpru,petrosetsaiiird question
athico,aha,idit not
ad-
mitted the difficulty of it : but he (Mr. Gibson) would say
that it never would be, until all ascendancy were done
away with, for there should be no ascendancy cf any
sort.--( Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") He did not think
that the State should grant to Ireland this favour, not from
fear, but from a strong,
claim to be placed conviction that the Irish people had a
upon( terms of perfect equality with any
other portion of the inhabitants
hear.) Nothing but
retants of the British nation. —(Near,
equality of civil and religious rights would
do ; and if that course
we
amalgamation of the Irish and te adopted, then would there be a real
nglishtop let,haatndthbeothbe
a happy and contented people.—(Cheers.)
Hon.
Sir J. WALSH said it would appear' heoimp
Member opposite was an enemy to all Church Establishments;
but he (Sir J. Walsh), being an advocate
for such Establish-
ments, as most necessary to the happiness of mankind, he
would oppose the motion of the Hon. Member for Sheffield,
because it would strike a blow at the Established Church, both
in this country and Ireland. The llonourable Member for
Sheffield had stated certain grounds, with which he
(Sir J. Walsh) fully concurred, though he could
not concur in his conclusions.—( Hear.) lie admitted
that three of the provinces of Ireland contained a dense popu-
lation, the majority of whom were Roman Catholic., but there
were a great number of Protestants in those districts who
possessed wealth and intelligence, and were, therefore, a most
important part of the population. He said this, in order to
prevent the existence of the impression that there was no
religion in Ireland but Roman Catholic. From what he heard
during those debates, it would appear to him as if there could
be nothing gained on one side which was not taken from the
other. A most unfortunate state of things existed in Ireland,
destructive of the internal repose and tranquillity of the
country, which it was the duty of the Government
to remedy, as far as they could.—(Hear, hear.) So
long as there was a feeling in Ireland that
she was treated with injustice and humiliation, so long
would a feeling of irritation and estrangement towards this
country exist. The Government of this country ought, there-
fore, to apply a remedy to those real evils under which Ireland
was suffering ; but that was not to he at the expense of others;
and at the present juncture he thought that the motion of the
Hon. Member for Sheffield, was ill-timed, for it might do
much to neutralise the good effects of the measure proposed by
her Majesty's Government. He admitted that the Church of
Ireland was in an anomalous position—(Hear, hear) ;—hut
the state of Ireland was quite as anomalous as that of the
Church. He thought it was much better frankly to accept
the boon proposed by her Majesty's Government, than
to excite feelings of irritation in Ireland. Nothing would
have a more injurious effect in Ireland than any concessions
that would increase the danger of the Protestant Church in that
country. If the present motion were carried, so far from
tranquillising Ireland, it would have a directly opposite effect.
He hoped that the measure of her Majesty's Government re-
specting Maynooth would he followed up by others tending to
soothe the Catholic population, but he trusted that the Right
Hon. Baronet would consider that the honour and faith of the
country were pledged to maintain in its integrity
the Protestant Church of Ireland, and he trusted
that he would not, in any plans which he might have in view
for the amelioration of Ireland and the Catholic Church, do
any thing which would have ;he slightest tendency to render
less efficient or less secure the Established Church in that
country.—( Hear. )
Mr. MACAULAY said he was desirous of catching the
Speaker's eye, because it so happened that he had never yet
had an opportunity of fully declaring his views on the im-
portant question now before the House. He was not in the
country at the time when this subject was before discussed in
Parliament, when it had almost thrown every other question
into the shade—which convulsed the whole political world—
which divided the administration of Lord Grey, and overthrew
the short-lived administration of the Right Hon. Baronet.—
( Hear, hear.) The motion of his Hon. Friend the
Member for Sheffield went to the whole question. It
was true he only asked, indeed, for 26,0001. from the
Irish Chores, but he understood his motion to go to the whole
question. It appeared to him to resemble an ejectment from a
single farm, for the purpose of trying the title to the whole
property.—(Cheers.) lie did not conceive that any person
could reasonably vote for his Hon. Friend's proposition who
was not prepared to go further.—( Hear, hear.) And, on the
other hand, he conceived that every Gentleman who opposed his
Hon. Friend's proposition, must be understood to do so with the
feeling that the whole of the property of the Irish Church ought
to continue exclusively in Protestant hands.—( Hear, hear. )
The question then was, whether the Established Church was
an institution which ought or ought not to be maintained ? He
should have thought it a t ruisrn—though the discussion upon
the subject led him to think that it was one which
had not occurred to any Gentleman on the opposite
side of the House who had spoken upon it—that when
the Legislature was going to decide whether a great
institution ought or ought not to be maintained, the
first thing to inquire into was, whether it were a good or a bad
institution. His own opinion was, that the Irish Church was
a bad institution—that it was a very bad institution.—(Hear,
hear.) That was his deliberate opinion, lung entertained,
confirmed by much observation and reflection, and an opinion
he thought, he could support by most unanswerable arguments.
He was not now speaking rhetorically, or with exaggeration, nor
did he intend, nor was it his wish to excite any angry feelings,
but it was his deliberate opinion, that of all institutions exist-
ing in the civilised world, the Established Church in Ireland
was the most utterly absurd and indefensible—( Cheers)—and
he wished for no better proof of that than the course which had
been always taken by its advocates—by the course which had
been taken by its advocates that night.—( Hear, hear.) He
would only ask any Gentleman if he had ever heard
any person argue the question on its merits.--(l-;ear,
hear.) He had heard, indeed, of the articles of
the union, which ought not to be violated. Well,
but there were articles of the union spite as important as the
article relating to the Established Church—those which re-
gulated the relative number of Members which were to sit in
that House as Irish Members. But those articles had been
altered by that House, and upon the motion too of the Noble
Lard the Secretary for the Colonies, with the fall consent of

admit the force of its tactics, employed Jesuits and other
orders of religious men in the work of conversion. He (lid
not recollect in the whole range of civil history of any en-
dowed parochial clergy effecting any great work of proselytism.
In Ireland there were many strong reasons why the clergy
should not busy themselves in works of conversion ; they were
a visibly endowed clergy, and had no great motive for zeal ; and
accordingly the Bible, through which they meant to proselytise,
had not been translated into the Erse language until 125 years
after the Reformation, and then it bad not been translated at
the expense. of the Irish Protestant Church, but at the private
expense of that greet and good man, Robert Boyle. The
Right Hon. Gentleman then quoted the opinions of Dean
swift as to the idleness and riches of the protestant clergy, and
observed that it would be remembered how the revenues
of the richest sees in Ireland were squandered on the shores of
the Mediterranean ; and his epistles were to be found, not
like those of Peter to his flocks, but in the correspondence of
Lady Hamilton. What a contrast between the ministers of
the one Church and those of another—the one revelling in
wealth, and with nothing to do, and the other visiting the
couches of the sick in their wretched cabins, and from scanty
means ministering to their temporal as well as spiritual wants.
The Right Hon. Gentleman then quoted the oeinions of Mr.
Ilume regarding
benefits anti evils of the voluntary system, and observed that
the expediency of a State Church, and the
the Irish Church had exemplified all the evils which Mr.
Hutne said belonged, not only to the State Church, but
to the voluntary system ; for it had, on the one
hand, a wealthy and indolent priesthood, and on the other,
ministers whose. position forced them into every description of
excitement and agitation. The Right Hon. Gentleman went
on to speak of the miseries which Scotland for twenty-eight
sears had endured under a Protestant State Church, when
Lords Lauderdale and Dundee commanded there, and asked
what the condition of Scotland would be, if the established reli-
gion of this country were yet kept up in Scotland—the same
bitter feelings of enmity which existed between the people of
Ireland and England would exist between those of England and
Scotland, and England, distracted by those divisions, instead of
being first in the rank of nations, would be inferior to many now
much beneath her in. power, and influence, and dignity.
Anal what was the result which these proceedings had
brought about ? Why, that Ireland, instead of proving a part
of the strength had proved the weakness of the empire.
What would they think of a physician who having two
patients suffering under precisely
the same complaint, had for
a long time prescribed the same remedies for both, but having
changed his course of treatment, and having found that it
was the very remedy which not only abated the evil, but which
cured the disease, yet refrained from adopting the same
remedies for the other patient? They would believe that either
he was dishonest to his profession, or that he had taken
leave of his senses. And why was it that the same principles
ehich applied to physic should not apply to politics?
With the impression that what was good fur one portion of
philosophy was good for another, he should give his support to
the motion of his lion. Friend. It was not for him to say
what the larger measure should be, but it was because the plea
was set up for vested rights, for which he entertained the
utmost respect, that he should give his support to the motion
of his Hon. Friend.—( Hear, hear.) Such was the plea of a
Conservative Ministry; but their proceedings on this question
would give them a clue to the policy of her Majesty's Govern-
ment, and would give them a handle of which they would I of
be slow to avail themselves. lie was not one of those depre-
cators, but he would tell the Right Hon. Baronet that he was
giving a lesson to Ireland which it was bad for a ruler to give,
but which a people were: never slow to learn —that the
way to obtain concession within was to agitate for it without..
What was it that had obtained the concession of Catholic eman-
cipation, but the agitation which had been occasioned by the
French revolution ? And what. was the conduct of the Govern-
ment now ? They were allowing every measure which,
while in Opposition, they had most strenuously opposed—
that policy for which Fox, and Grattan, and Grenville, and
Wilberforce, had battled, for the granting of which, during the
first two months, they possessed peculiar advantages.—(Great
cheering.) What had been the course of the party now in
power ? Why that they had, when in opposition, opposed every
act which, when in power, they had been the most strenuous
advocates for. But what, on the other hand, had been the conduct
of the party opposed to that?—why, that they had redeemed
every pledge which they had given when they were in a position
to render that redemption useful, and it was from no party pur-
pose, but simply from conviction, that he gave his support to
the present measure. Did Hon. Members suppose that if the
monster meetings had never taken place, or if there had been
no disturbance in America, that the same measure fur concilia-
tion would ever have been introduced? For an answer to this
inquiry, they need only refer to what had been the conduct
of the Government now in power when they assailed the Go-
vernment of Lord Normanby ? Where would have been the
present measure but for the opposition from Mr. O'Connell
and the Pope ? lie had blamed the conduct of the Irish Mem-
bers in 1843. He had been led into the conviction, that
higher duties were to be performed by Members of that House,
than the agitation of the public mind, or the discussion of local
questions ; and he thought that the Irish Members would have
been better fulfilling their duty to their country by attending
in their places in that House, than by directing the move-
ments of any party in Ireland, however great. He had been
led to praise the conduct of the lion. Members for Dungarvon,
for Roscommon, and for Waterford, for rendering as they had
done the advantage of those counsels which all allowed to be
great to the public service, which would otherwise, accord-
ing to his former conception, have been dissipated
in popular declamations; but he had learnt to believe
that the best place in which an Irish Member could
serve his country was not within the walls of the British House
of Commons, but amid the patriotic supporters of the Concilia-
tion Hall, Dublin. The Government had been insensible to
the claims of Ireland till the disturbances in Canada had
awakened them to a recollection of the value of Ireland to the
British empire. Could they expect that any Irish Roman Ca-
tholic could entertain any very great displeasure at hearing the
American frontier was disturbed, when he well knew that such
a disturbance would lead to a restitution of his own rights ?
He would ask, with their knowledge of the national character—
with their acquaintance of the national susceptibility, whether
they could possibly expect that any uneasiness should be awa-
kened by the disturbance of the Canadian empire ? The policy
of the Government seemed to be to yield nothing to reason
but everything to force, and the measure now before
the House had been granted rather from a conviction
of the necessity of this measure, than from any strict con-
formity with their predetermined opinions. Such had been
the case when the Irish Municipal Bill had been passed—such
was the case when the grant for Maynooth was under conside-
ration. Would they now say that the position of the Esta-
blished Church was no grievance ? They knew that it was felt
as such by the great body of the Irish people. His (Mr.
Macaulay's) object in giving his support to this motion was
to render the union between the two countries one of pleasur-
able consent ; and his opinion now, as it was when he was a
member of the Government, was that the principles of justice
should be respected, let whoever would prefer the claims of
justice; and he would do the same thing now freely, fairly, and
consistently, if the whole of the American frontier were
raging with the flames of war.—( Hear, hear.)
If a new camp, under a new Bonaparte, were
to be found at Boulogne, and England had to
contend with the whole world in arms to preserve
her place among the nations—he would say to the
Government—what you grant, grant freely; but, what you
withhold, withhold firmly; for if they granted to concession
what they withheld from reason, they
were only multiplying
complaint, and justifying discontent. For ten months he had
had the whole machinery for carrying this motion into full effect.
They expected that the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor
of the Exchequer would reply that they were unable to
accomplish that which unthreatened they never at-
tempted, and that the Government now in power
wculd be ready to sink all considerations for present
expediency ; and then, when convictions opened upon them,
the Government, with the Right Hon. Baronet at its head,
would suffer themselves to be drged through their difficultiestt
by the same honest men whose
lently opposed, and were now ready to adopt. b
whenam that
man for a conscientious change in opinion or policy,
in-
would reply to the many taunts which
change was induced by a difference of circumstances or an
lion. Baronet
crease in knowledge. lie knew not if the Right
d or that
policy they had
.olnceevdiroo.
'se of the
the Chancellor of the Exchequer would express his s
• en
be
sufferings which he had to endure ; though he might
te the other, yet it
in-
clined to relieve the one or to commiserateallow him-
was not his business to remove them. He woulddnnt r
to
ad_
self to speak in any terms of their public procee ingsdo.
et he
vise them how the public peace was to be preserve ,
notificationy
would say that if the next mail were to britir'eer
rebellion in
that Oregon was occupied—if there were a
threaening•the American frontier—he well.'
ail of the line
Ire-
land tomorrow, and a fleet of thirty Frenchlt grant no more to
he had hear
agitation than he would to justice, for
WO
was necessary without force, and all that justiceuld grant all that
had a right to
demand.
he had consulted only
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that, if
have addressed the
lie had in former
House at all upon the present occasion,
idaerable length upon
debates addressed them at very
consthat lie now could offer
s
his own feelings and wishes, he should not
the same subject, and he was conscious
But the speech
little, if anything new upon the question.
on. Member who
ry or
him (Sir J.
last spoke rendered it imperatively necessa
(elitis m in the Govern-
Graham), holding as he did a high
did not think it would
ment, to trouble them very shortly.
be necessary for him to ad
topics embraced in the
which the House had heard from the Right H
e farmer occasion
Rigd ressHed himselfGentlem
toanthe 's
vert
speech,
to all
House wit the
re topafe
ogrence to that very
subject, and he confessed
ad
he could not help feeling somewhat
a‘a
surprised, considering the nature of the two measures brought
forward by her Majesty's Government—measures intended as
conciliatory—he repeated that he was somewhat surprised that,
under the peculiar circumstances, the Right Honourable
Gentleman should have brought to their consideration
so m
ne
concluded with a hope that justice
wouldlm
out to Ireland, but the peculiar ex-
r last
address, f
meted
eeltiena f
that hope from a person of high authority like the
c au bh be
at asy
pression of
Right Hon. Gentleman
appeared to him (Sir J. Graham)
likely to create an evil impression out of doors. In the mat-
ter, of the Hon. Gentleman
s sentiments regarding reproof,
he (Sir J.
Graham) from his heart agreed ; and he believed
entrusted by her Majesty•
that no Government
duct of public affairs, would think or act otherwise. Nay,
of tl
believed that a majority people—not of Etig-
more, he lreland also, were
land and Scotland, but of resolved to the last
,
extremity to preserve the ofunionnthe two countries pure and
inviolate. With that sentiment h need scarcely say he cor-
dially
introduced House a measure, agreed.—( Hear, hear.) But her Majesty's Government
had to the o of conciliation, and
ed their intention of pursuing a conciliatory
they had express
He (Sir Jamespolicy.Graham) agreed
with the opinion
Right lion. Gentleman, that in
expressed by the
knd the rule of
concilia-
tory measures of this Government ought to
be, to grant them to a sense of justice, but to refuse them to
the demands of agitation. Withrespect to this particular
measure, the Right Hun. Gentleman had said that it was
extorted from the fear of Government, and not from its jus-
tice.—( Hear.) How different was the sentiment of the Gallant
Commodore the Member for Marylebone, that he would not
have supported them on that question if he thought it had been
extracted from the fears of her Majesty's Government.—
(Cheers.) He would say that this measure, to far from hav-
ing been extorted by agitation—so far
Was it from having
any reference to a recent misunderstanding, to which the
Right Hon. Gentleman had referred, that it had been deter-
mined on by her Majesty's Government long before, and before'
that misunderstanding had arisen it had been announced by his
Right Hon. Friend at the head of the Government.—(Cheers.)
He appealed to the Right Hon. Gentleman himself and
to the House, if his Right Honourable Friend had
not at the close of the last session of Parliament announced
the intentions of the Government with respect to this subject.
—(Continued cheers.) There were persons not politically
connected with the Government—he did not hesitate to name
them—they were the members of the Irish hierarchy, to whom
this measure had been announced, because it would have been
the height of impolicy to have brought forward a measure of
this kind, it would have been neglecting a most important con-
sideration, if her Majesty's Government had not, in such
a case, consulted the heads of the Irish Church.—
( Hear, hear, and cheers.) lie said, then, that this mea-
sure, in its present shape, had been communicated before
the end of the month of November, to the authorities to whom
he had referred.—(Cheers.) The measure was therefore pre-
pared without the slightest reference to that misunderstanding
to which the Right Hon. Gentleman had referred.—( Con-
tinued cheers.) The Right Hon. Gentleman had further
said that this measure had been extorted by the proceedings of
Conciliation Hall.—( Hear, hear.) He would again repeat
t until the repeal agitation had been overturned in Ireland,

TB E SU N, LO NDON,_'IIII3RS DA N' EVENING, APRIL 24,,)845.

nothing whatever would have :induced her Majesty's Minis-
ters to bring forward a measure of this kind. The
monster meetings had been put down. Their lead-
ers had been submitsed to trial, and had been
convicted.—( Hear, hear.) He admitted that in point of
form, but not in point of merit, that conviction had been set
aside.—( Cheers, and counter-eheers. ) Law, order, and com-
parative peacefulness now le evaded in Ireland, and though the
Right Hon. Gentleman had pat a false construction on the
measure of the Right Hon. Baronet in reference to the agita-
tion in Irela d and the misundersianding with the United
States, he (Sir James Graham) would repeat that this mea-
sure was determined on, without the slightest reference to
either of those events.— (Cheers. ) If the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman then was neither anthorised nor justified in making
these observations, he (Sir James Graham) appealed
to the House whether measures of this kind, W.ich were
calculated to soften existing prejudices and extend more
amicable feelings, should be blasted by such insinuations?—
(Cheers.) He for one would not envy the success which
might attend such efforts.—(Continued cheers.) lie greatly
regretted the course taken by the Hon. Member for Sheffield
on this question. What said he of the question before the
House? He conceded that it was a good measure, that it
ought to pass, and yet he offered an obstruction to its progress.
The Right Hon. Gentleman, the Member for Edinburgh, had
said that this was not a mere question of 26,0001., but the real
matter at issue was, what Church should reign dominant in Ire-
land, whether it ought to continue the bad without
endeavouring to make it better. The Right Hon. Gentleman,
at the same time, had pointed out that there were certain
limits beyond which her Majesty's Government should not go.
He could speak for himself, that no change of opinion, that no
argument in that House would induce him to admit the prin-
ciple that the Irish Church was an evil in itself, and ought to
be abolished. On the contrary, he begged to state that all
reflection convinced him, that his most anxious deliberations
had confirmed him in the opinion that it was the duty of this
country to maintain the Protestant Establishment in Ireland.
He did not wish, in a matter of this kind, to speak reproachfully
of Gentlemen on the opposite side of the House.—( Hear. )
He must say of the Honourable Member fur Sheffield, that
no one had argued the question with more philosophical
discrimination, unless it were the Noble Lord the Member for
London, who entirely dissented from the views of the lion.
Member for Sheffield.—(Hear, hear.) He did not know
what the opinions of the Noble Lord might now be ; but, in
1838, when the Noble Lord brought forward a measure for a
change in the property of the Established Church, he dis-
tinctly repudiated the principle of this motioh.—( Hear, hear. )
He ( Sir J. Graham) had heard nothing from the Right Hon.
Gentleman the Member for Edinburgh to lead him to believe
that the destruction of the Established Church in Ireland would
be conducive to the prosperity of the country, or productive of
more kindly feelings between the two great branches of the em-
pire.—(Hear.) The Right Hon. Member for Edinburgh had
said that in America there was no Established Church, hut
that there the clergy of each religion, and all the
sustenances of religion, were better upheld than in countries
in which there were established religions, and those well en-
dowed. But he would ask the House, were the conditions of
the two countries to fie compared?-( Hear, hear.) He felt,
and he was sure the House would agree -with him, that to carry
out an analogy would be impossible.—( Hear, hear.) That
the proposition which the Hon. Member sought to establish—
(A laugh)—was impracticable, could be proved by a reference
to the fate of those Governments in whose time the lion. Alem-
ber had introduced it. Lord Grey's Government had felt it im.
Possible to carry out the principle. Succeeding Governments
gave way before the overwhelming difficulty,hut notwithstanding
all the taunts thrown in the teeth of that Government, a mea-
sure relating to education in Ireland was carried without the
intervention of the principle which the Hen. Gentleman now,
for the fifth time, called upon the House to avow.—( Conser •
vative cheers.) There were others more competent than he
(Sir J. Graham) to speak upon this subject, and to go back to
the times of the Stuarts, and other times to which reference
had been made. He would only say, that the ministers of the
Established Church had performed their duty.—(Cheers.)
They had done so under more trying circumstances than any
which could be contemplated by the opponents of this measure.
—(Hear, hear.) He admitted that it was the chief object of
an Established Church to minister to the religious wants of the
whole population. —( Cheers.) But he did not think that the
missionary character of the Established Church would be im-
paired by the measure of the Government ; and it was no part
of their intention to transfer the revenues of that Church to
the ;religion of the majority. The principles which
he had hitherto avowed he still adhered to.—(Hear.)
He objected alike to the extreme measures of the Bight Hon.
Member for Edinburgh, and the analogous motion of the Hen.
Member for Sheffield.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member
for Coventry most conscientiously discarded any intention of
endowing the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland. Lord
Plunkett stated that he considered that the Protestant Church
in Ireland was the strongest bond of union between the two
countries. All he would say was this, that he at that time
foresaw, whatever their intentions might have been, that ulti-
mately this would be the consequence which we have arrived
at for the first time.—(Loud cheers.) He understood the
Member for Nottingham, on the motion of the Hon. Member
for Sheffield, for assistance to the Roman Catholic Church out
of the funds of the Protestant Church, to give a denial of
any such intention on his part. Notwithstanding he always
foresaw that the inevitable effect of that motion would be
the point to which they had now arrived. He never could
agree to that proposition himself, and circumstances since had
led him more and more to consider that preposition a dan-
gerous one, and he was now better assured of it. In the
opinions he had already given expression to, he most sincerely
and conscientiously adhered, and he was most anxious that the
wants of the Roman Catholics should be supplied, and that
through the measures they were now considering they should
receive assistance in their education ; but he could not see that
it would not render it more feasible to the Protestants of this
country, that that assistance should be rendered through the
spoliation of the Protestant Church of Ireland. He would
adhere to the opinion which:he had heretofore stated, and would
decidedly oppose the motion of the Hon. Member for Sheffield.
Mr. ROEBUCK said, that when the Right Honourable
Baronet opposite undertook to oppose the motion of the
Honourable Member for Sheffield, he (Mr. Roebuck)
at least expected that he might divulge that some attempt
should be made to answer the arguments of the Hon. Gantle-
man. It did not strike him that the Hon. Gentleman had
attempted to answer the proposition offered by him.—( Cheers.)
The only reason which he could deduce fur such a failure in
this case was the want of argument to support a cause which
the Hon, Gentleman found to crumble beneath him. The
Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Edinburgh stated
that the Irish Protestant Church was at that time a worthless
church, because it was instituted for purposes which were at
this time utterly without value. It was a church which in a
large portion of Ireland did not exist. For, let them under-
stand the meaning of the word church. They were con-
stantly confounding the word church with church establish-
ments. They were confounding the payment of a clergy who
were giving consolation to a congregation—they were con-
founding the congregation itself, who constituted that Church,
with those pastors who were appointed for the purpose of giving
consolation: That was not applicable to Ireland ; for in a large
portion of that country there was no Protestant congregation,
and it now came to be considered, as the Right Hon. Gentle-
man had stated, that as this property had failed in its uses,
how were they to give assistance but out of the property
which remained in their hands ? The Government said it
was a matter of high importance that this grant should
be made, and the only question raised by the Hon. Member
fur Sheffield was, where should she proceeds come from to
supply this grant ? Was it to come from the pickets of
the hard-working people of England, or from that portion of
property which they had in their hands, of which the Protes-
tant use had entirely failed? They were not discussing—the
Right Hon. Gentleman did not wish to introduce—any religious
feeling on this occasion; but what did the Right Hon. Gentleman
do? He turned round upon those who supported him, and said that
they were now coming to touch the Protestant feeling of the
people of England, and he himself blows the bellows to excite
it.—( Cheers. ) They had supported him throughout, to the
great risk of themselves, and this was a strange return for the
support which they had given him.—(Cheers and laughter.)
The Protestant Establishment was faithfully described by his
Right Hon. Friend, and had it been attempted to be answered
by the Right Hon. Baronet opposite ? Was it not, at this pre-
sent moment, the great ecclesiastical enormity of Europe ?
( Hear.) Was that description answered by the Right Hon
Baronet ? What did he do when he found a murmur ? He
told them to beware how they raised the Protestant hostility
of England. How was it that his own allegiance roused
that same spirit? They were prepared to meet all that
was wrong, all that was biggoted, all that was unjust in the
Protestant feeling in England, but they were prepared to sup-
port the strong feeling of justice on the part of the English
people, that that portion of justice which is to be done to
Ireland should be done at the least expense and suffering of
the great body of the community • and that was the grand
distinguishing mark of the two Classes on both sides of the
House. It was a shifting, wavering, faltering policy, after
the declarations made on the ether side of the House ; and it
was a sound feeling of kindness and consideration,
based upon principles of freedom and liberality, which
induced them to support this motion.—( Hear, and cheers.)
Why did he make this observation, but that it was called for by
the speech which the Right Hon. Gentleman at the head of
her Majesty's Government last made upon the question. He
wanted to know what answer the Right Hon. Gentleman had
made to the epeoches of the Hon. Member for Cork. The
answer was admitted by the Hon. Member for Dungarvon ;
but although that answer might have been pointedly made it
was not conclusive. What were the circumstances? " Agi-
tate, agitate," said the Hon. Member for Cork, to the people
of Ireland. " Don't go to England ; it is useless to
do that ; but meet me at the monster meetings. Put
the Government in danger. Frighten the Prime
Minister. Let him see that if a shadow of a
shade of war arise in any part of the world you will coerce
him. Trust me, and when England or the Prime Minister is
frightened, you may rely upon it Ireland will have justice done
to her." Yes, that was the language of the Hon. Member for
Cork, and what was the speech the Hon. Member for Dun-
garvon made in that House ? Why, it was a reiteration of the
declaration of the Hon. Member for Cork, and the course he
was now pursuing had a tendency still further to excite and
irritate the Irish people. What was the course? Was it. to
show the Irish people that what was just in time of war was
not just in time of peace, or was it to point out the mode of re-
medying the mischief which had been done by any previous mal-
administration? No: it was to create discontent and make
the position of the Prime Minister dangerous in the event of
any exigency arising, and thus to make it dangerous for him
to refuse justice to Ireland. Now, he asked the House if these
were not the real causes which had produced the conciliating
declarations of the Right Hon. Baronet opposites Much in-
justice had been done by that Right Hon. Gentleman to the
great body of the people of ihis country, as well as to a
large majority of that House. They, on that side
of the House, and he believed the country at large
were supporting a measure of conciliation and conces-
sion, and not yielding to one of the violent demands which had
been made by the Hon. Member for Cork, in Ireland, and
reiterated in that House by the Hon. Member for Dungarvon.
They thought indeed that they had been dealing with the
great business of conciliation towards Ireland, until the Right
Hon. Gentleman delivered himself of his speech the other
evening.—( Hear, hear.) But how had they been deceived?
How craftily had the Right Hun. Baronet endeavoured
to cover his object with a flimsy veil which
required but little penetration or examination to see through.
The fact was, the Right Hon. Gentleman bad nearly get rid
of the difficulties at home, and probably in Ireland, by one of
his happy ruses. By a sudden turn of fortune the Right
Hon. Gentleman fancied he had the House of Commons with
him, and this grant was intended as a sop for the Right Hon.
Gentleman the Member for Cork. That was a true statement
of the 'case. If the Right Hon. Baronet had not discovered a
small cloud of war in the west, he would not have beers dis-
turbed. And what was the true interpretation of those words ?
Why, the Right Hon. Baronet was afraid of a war with Ame •
rica.—(Cheers from the Opposition.) That was the long and
short of it.—( Hear, and a laugh.) At the same time, the
Right Hon. Gentleman foresaw something like a rebellion in
Ireland, contemporaneously with the war in America. This,
then, was the sop to be given to Ireland. It was at least a sort
of graceful concession.—( Cheers.) These were not his own
words, but the ideas, if not the words, of Government, and he
defied any man in that House to get up and make
any other interpretation of the speeches which had been made
by the Right Hon. Baronet. And what was the answer to
those statements and promises of the Right Hon. Baronet the
Secretary for the Home Department? 'Why, he had added
to the statement, and what was still more remarkable, he had
on the present occasion made an unjust appeal to the Protes-
tant people of England. The Hon. Member for Sheffield had
proposed that the Maynooth grant should come out of funds.