Star.
London, England, 1830-05-15 00:00:00

13,6421. was granted for relief to Corsican emigrants and Dutch
naval officers.

2,5001. was granted reedit support of the Vaccine Institution.
The Resolution for granting 3,0001. for the Refuge foe the Desti-
tute, being opposed by Mr. Hums, was withdrawn.
The House resumed.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved that the
House at its rising do adjourn to Monday..—Agreed to.

EmOLusIEXTI Or Myr ColinclLLOas.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said he was sorry and surprised at the
refusal of his Majesty's Ministers to grant the Return he was about
to move for, nor could he imagine on what ground it was refused.
The house, as the guardians of the public purse, had a right to de-
mand a return of what sums of money were received by any officers
under the Crown.—(Hear.).-Such returns had been moved for and
ordered by the house on former occasions, when the object was
to show what members of the house received public money ;
and he could not see why it should be refused when applied
to Members of the Privy Council. The Privy Council was a body
recognised by repeated statutes. In all communications with the
Crown by the House, the address was presented by Members of the
Privy Council. It was for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to 'hew
why the Privy Council should be exempted from the general rules.
He had told him (Sir James Graham) that there was a return moved
for by the honourable member for Lincoln, which made his
motion superfluous; but that motion was for a return of such
officers as held two or more commissions. (Hear, bear.) There
were amongst the Members of the Privy Council but thirty who
held two or more offices ; and there were 113 who held office under
the crown ; the former only would be returned on the motion
of the honourable member for Lincoln. Ho had endeavoured to
make out a return himself, from the best information he could.
He knew the information asked for was of a delicate nature, and he
should not read the return which he had collected with considerable
difficulty from various sources, but would read to the house an
analysis of the whole. The emoluments received by the members
of the royal family had when granted been the subject of discussion
in that house, and their amount was well known to the public;
he should, therefore, omit any mention of their emolument. Besides
the members of the Royal Family; there were 169 Privy Council.
logs, 113 of whom received public money to the amount of
6601641, annually, being an average of upwards of 6,7301. for
each. Of this sum 386,0001. was received for sinecures, 143,0001.
for services, and 121,0001. in pensions. In the 113 who received
salaries, pensions, or emoluments from the public money, there
were 30 pluralists who held more than one office each, and whose
receipts from the public amounted to 221,1331. being an aver.
age of 7.3711. to each. (Hear, hear, hear.) Of the Privy
Council 69 were Members of Parliament; of these 47 were
peers, who received salaries, pensions, and emoluments, amounting
annually to 387,8401. being an average of upwards of B,oool—
Twenty-two were members of the house of commons, and
received in the same way 90,8491. being an average of 4,1901. each.
(Hear.) Besides the 69 Privy Councillors who were members of
Parliament, 29 held offices or received emoluments in consequence
of having held offices amounting to 126,171;1. being an average of
4,3541. to each person. This analysis was not probably perfectly
accurate, but to the best of his hottest belief it was substantially cor-
rect. He was confident itapproximated to the truth. If the right hon.
Gentleman opposite (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) should say
this return was inaccurate, and at the same time refuse to produce
an accurate return, he would say to him why not prove his assertion
by the production of an accurate return, which was the only way
the people of England could be satisfied.—(Hear). He thought
it his duty to state another fact, founded on official documents,
produced in compliance with the directions of that House,
which she% ed the number of persons employed in public offices
at different periods, and the amount of their salaries in 1827,
and he would observe, that the price of wheat was then about
the same as at present, the number of persons employed was
18,269 ; the amount of their salaries was 1,374,0001. In 1827, the
number of persons employed was 22,912 ; their salaries amounted
to 2,788,0001. (Hear.) It had been said, in reply to his observe.
dons on this subject, on a former occasion, that up to 1812, the offi-
cers of customs had been principally paid by fees which were then
abolished, and their salaries increased ; but it appeared by an an.
swer published by Mr. Dee to the invaluable work of his hon. friend
(Sir Henry Parnell) which was his text book, that the increase of
salary which took place on that occasion, as compensation for the
loss of fees, was but 40,0001. In 1810, the price of wheat was
105 s. now it was 665. There were then employed in the public of-
fices 22,931 persons whose salaries amounted to 2,822 0001. The
salaries of ministers and other civil officers were raised expressly on
account of the high price of provisions, and still continued at the
same rate. (Hear, hear.) What was now the fact, as it applied to
the unhappy country gentlemen ? They were obliged to receive
half price, and pay the double annuity ; while ministers received the
double annuity, and paid but half price. On a former night be spoke
on this subject, without any intention of giving offence, but certainly
with sincerity of heart ; for he never could consent to begin the
work of reduction with subordinate clerks, and leave untouched the
large salaries of those who had parliamentary interest, and many of
whom had large properties of their own • this could never accord
with his notions of justice.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. Payne, a clerk in
the Colonial Office, was superannuated as unfit for service, with
an allowance of 7601. per annum, and at the same time made
agent to Ceylon, an office of considerable emolument ; but he
would not animadvert on this minor case, or others of a similar
nature, when he saw Lord Cathcart receiving 23100 L a-year for
a sinecure in Scotland, being at the same time in possession
of all his military employments and emoluments; and when
he saw the Vice-Admiral opposite (Sir G. Cockburn) in the posses.
don of his civil employment of a Lord of the Admiralty, of his
full pay as Major-General of Marines, and also knew that by a
special warrant in his favour he bad received half pay for three
years, amounting to 3,oooL—(Harr, hear.)--He would read to the
house the oath administered to every lieutenant before he could re.
=be his half-pay, by which the house would see how strictly any
accumulation of income was guarded against in the case of inferior
officers. The honourable Baronet here read the oath, stating that
the person is not in holy orders, and has not any other pay, half-
pay, or emolument of any kind t why should there be an exception
made to this rule in favour of the Vice-Admiral ?—(Hesr, hear.)---
He should not now complain of the salary of the Vice-President of
the Board of Trade, when he found that the First Lord of the Ad.
miralty had 6,0001. sad a sinecure office in Scotland of 3,1001. The
heads of the Boards of Excise and Customs had their salaries raised
in consequence of high and they continued at the same rate;
but he thought it would be unjust to direct an attack against their
salaries, while Lord Melville's and Lord Rosslyn's emoluments re-
mained unreduced. The latter, besides his office of Lord Privy
Seal, and likewise his military appointments, had also lucrative
sinecures In Scotland.—(Hear, hear.) It might, perhaps, be said,
in answer to his motion, that it was merely made to gratify curl.
osity, and could not lead to any beneficial result. (Hear, hear.) He
would not conceal the objects he had in view in moving for the in-
formation be sought to obtain. His first object was to contrast the
sums paid with the services that if there were room for
a reduction of expense, whaf;temtehtight there was, it might be
Ilmade.--(bear, hear.) His second object mulct ascertain the sense
l' of the house on the point, whether the rule now applied to half.
pay, vb. that it should be suspended during the time of receiving
any salary, should not be applied to full-pay.--(hear, near.) His
third object was to ascertain whether, when ministers returned to of-
fice, the salaries of the sinecure offices they had received as retired
allowances should not abate. These were the grounds on which he
made the motion, and the objects he had in view ; and, tithe return
was granted, he hoped the house would not think these objections
unworthy of notice. He would now shortly advert to the subject
of superannuation'. One would think from their being allowed to
continue in the same state, that the subject had never been
investigated by a committee ; but it had been gravely examined
by the Finance Committee, who stated the alarming fact, that
the non.effective superannuation' amounted to 484,0001. the effec-
tive to 4,300,0001. The committee came to an unanimous resolution
that no halt-pay should be held with full pay t this resolution Was
acted on towards the weak, but was forgotten in the case of the
powerfuL (bear,) The finance committee also recommended that
military and naval officen,when employed in civil offices, should only
receive the salaries of those offices; but this recommendation was
also disregarded. The committee also recommended that the regu-
lations of 1822, for forming a superannuation fund, by a deduction
from salary. should be acted upon. The defence of government
was, that they acted on the recommendation of the committee, but
the house would not agree to It. The Chancellor of the Exchequer
brought forward the second reading of the bill late in July, when it
was opposed by the supporters of the ministers, and two others who
had left office about five weeks. The Chancellor of the Exchequer
then said that the salaries had been left larger than was absolutely
necessary to enable the individuals to provide for their own superan-
nuation, but the alternative was never acted on ; and though they did
not provide, the salaries were allowed to remain the same. The Chan.
cella of the Exchequer said, be had strenuously supported the recom.
mendadon ; but instead of that, be expressed his great regret at being
obliged to propose it, and gave itup without a Ifgovernment
would support him, humble member as he was, he would undertake
to carry that repudiated measure through the house. The hon.
baronet =included by calling the attention of the house to what fell
from Lord Londonderry in almost the last speech be uttered in the
house. When sparking of the salaries of public functionaries, be
observed, that if them were to be viewed and treated as vested
rights, there would be an end to all legislation; and were such an
idea entertained and brought forward, It 'mild instantly be
scouted. (Hear.) These words ought to be borne in the rend.
laden of his majesty's ministers on the present occisloo, and
he gusted that they would be attended to and 'acted . upon that
in= The time had arrived when the state of the country de.
the strictest scrutiny in the administration of the sake Of
govwpassar, aad he should now call upon his majeety'embistere to
fulfil Oat deemed. Let his majesty a ministers da this; -and he
pledged himself to Wag forward plans of retreathmeet, that would

answer all the purposes intended ; let them grant these returns, and,
by so doing, keep faith with the people of the country—(Cheers.)
The bon. baronet then moved, that an humble address be presented
to his majesty, that there be laid before this hones an "account of
all salaries, profits, pay, fees, and emoluments., whether civil or
military, from the Bth of January, 1821, to the loth of January,
1830, held and enjoyed by each of the members of his majesty's
most honourable privy council, specifying, with each name, the total
amount received by each individual, and distinguishing the various
sources from which the same is derived."

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that if he
meant to oppose any general reduction, or abatement of full and
half-pay, or if he intended to oppose the principle of the honoura-
ble Baronet's motion, he might have risen with greater diffidence
than he othetwise did ; he appealed to the honourable Baronet, and
to the house, that such never did appear to be his intention ; he
should not only grant one return, but he should grant more,—
(hear)--and give the honourable Baronet every means of scum-
plishing the objects he had in view. He (the Chancellor of the
Exchequee) did not object to the returns, but as to the form in
which they were sought to be obtained.—(Hear, hear.)—On a
former occasion the honourable Baronet was told that the papers
he required were all ready, and would be placed on the table of the
house. What did the hon. baronet then say ? why, that the returns
that were then offered were too voluminous, that they would embrace
a variety of information undoubtedly, but would not touch the points
whickhe had in view ; but the hon. baronet was told still further
that there was no member whatever of his Majesty's government,
whose of ceand emolument should not be fairly stated. He should tell
the hon. hart. now, as he did on a former oces.tion, that there was no
precedent on record for stating the emoluments of the members of his
Majesty's Privy Council. They were :appointed by his Markt,.
ty, and did not come under the denomination of the public
officers of the Government ; they might be persons holding
other offices, and deriving emolument to a large amount, but it sp.
to him (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) as invidious to
ring them forward as Privy Councillors. Such a proceeding would
be holding them up to obloquy, not because they received the public
money, but because they held an office of high dignity, and apart
from every other ; but the hon. hart. has not confined himself
to the objects of his motion, he has travelled into a wider field,
and thought proper to discuss the conduct of Government re-
lative to matters which had recently taken place; he (the Chan.
cellor of the Exchequer) alluded to the question of superannuation
la:ely before the house. The honourable baronet had not only
blamed Government, but had charged others with having
acted wrong on that question. When he (the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer) was taxed with indifference to that question, he should at
once deny the justice of such a charge ; but he begged to assure the
hon. ban. that there was a treasury minute, which caused certain
reductions in the salaries of public officers, for the purpose of
providing for the superanuation fund. Let the honourable baronet
and the house look to what he (the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer) had done and it would be found that there was, at least,
some disposition on his part to follow up reduction.—(hear, hear,
hear.) The same spirit was shewn by the Secretary for the Co.
lonies, as well as by the Master of the Mint. He had also been
charged with having placed ex-ministers on the superannuation
committee, with a view -o their support. Had the hon. baronet so
little parliamentary experience as not to knew that ex-ministers
were the last that would follow up the plans of their successors by
supporting them. Atter the fatigue of the evening lie should not
enter much into detail, more especially as the hon. baronet had said
that on another occasion he should have further opportunities of
himself going into details. He must, however, be allowed to ob.
'MC, with respect to Lord Cathcart, that that nobleman's family
were in the receipt, no doubt, of a large amount, but it was for great
services rendered to the country; and the government never intended
to keep back these pensions. The same remark also applied to
other noble families. He begged the honourable baronet to bear in
mind the characters of many of these families, which had been
characterized as birds of prey. These individuals did not hold their
pensions from any culpability of his majesty's present government.
It was the practice of former governments to bestow them upon the
meritorious servants of the crown, not that the individuals them.
selves might be provided for, but that their families might not
become destitute. What the individuals now received was not
for their services, but those of their predecessors who had earned
it for them. lle should not trouble the house further, but
simply move u an amendment to the motion of the honourable
baronet that an humble address be presented to his majesty, praying
that there may be laid before the house an account of all the Wades,
pay, fees, and emoluments of the officers of the crown both civil and
military, from the sth of Jan. 1829 to the sth of Jan. 1830, the
total 112110 UM of each of which shall exceed 2,0001. per annum. The
right hon. gentleman sat down by stating that he was of opinion
that the amendment he had brought forward would meet all the ends
which the hoc. baronet had in view.
The gallery was then ordered to be cleared for a division. On
our again entering the house we found that none bad taken
place, and
Lord MILTON on his legs, supporting the motion of the hon.
Baronet. The salaries and emoluments of the Privy Councillors,
as well es every other Officer of State. ought to be laid before the
house. Privy Councillors were judicial officers of the first import-
ance, not only to this country, but to foreign pans, and the House
of Commons ought not to be told that it was not to itterfere with
their emoluments. He trusted that the gallant Baronet who sat op.
ite, who filled the office of one of the Lords of the Admiralty
r G. Cockburn), would meet the charges that had been brought
forward against his department; he trusted he (Sir G. Cockburn)
would be able to refine them entirely • be also trusted that the eco.
nomy of the present Government would not strip the indigent, and
leave the rich to wallow in their riches.--(Quadon, question.)
Sir G. COCKBURN would not have risen on the present occa-
sion, as he thought It would have been time enough when the re.
turns offered by the Chancellor of the Exchequer were on the table
of the house. As far as regarded his own cue individually, he felt
no sort of hesitation in stating the utmost extent of eniolument
which he enjoyed. (Hear, hear.) The salary of the first lord of
the admiralty was 1,5001. per annum--the others received
1,0001. He himself received the former cum, in addition to
half pay; it pleased his Majesty also, in consideration of his
services, to grant him the commission of major-general; and he
confessed that he enjoyed the highest situation that he could
by possibility get in his profession. H. also held the rank
of major-general of the marines. He was obliged to reside
constantly in London • and he could safely assert, putting all his
emoluments together, ;hat he did not receive so much even as the
Secretary of the Treasury, namely, 2,5001. a year. He could assure
the house, go out of °thee when he might, he should go out a loser—
and that there were other officers of the Crown receiving five times,
nay ten times, the amount of his allowance. He received the rank
of Major-General of Marines in consideration of past services and
he could tell hon. members, that if be did not deserve it, be should
bow to their opinion.
Mr. HUMS thought that the Chancellor of the Exchequer could
not be sincere when he said that the returns he offered would answer
all the ends of the hon. baronet ; these returns would only give half
the information required ; he should vote for the motion of his ho.
nourable friend.

Sir J. YORKE said that:the boo. bart.'s motion did him
great credit, and he should vote for it.
Mr. E. DAVENPORT, amid cries of " Question, question."
said that the returns required were of so voluminous a character,
that they could oot be prepared before the expiry of three months,
by which dmehonourable members would have politically ceased to
exist.

Sir H. HARDINGE vindicated the character of Mr. Brown, of
the Colonial Seartarrs Office, who was one of the individuals who
had been alluded to by the hon. beet.
Lord ALTHORP contended that the ministers would act very
unwisely were they to withhould the desired information.
Mr. HUSKISSON agreed with the noble lord who had just sat
down ; it was necessary to show publicly and openly, what were
the receipts of the Privy Councillors, and maintain no mystery on
the subject; for his own pan, he had no wish to conceal any emo-
lument of which he was in the receipt ; he deprecated above all
things the appeuancs of mystery, and that it should go forth to the
world, and forth it would go, that there was any truth in the impu-
tations brought forward.
Dlr. PORTMAN hoped the right boo. the Chancellor of the
Exchequer would not press his amendment to a division.
Mr. W. SMITH opposed the motion. (The boo. gentleman
continued to address the house amid the greatese.possible confusion,
so as to be rendered wholly inaudible in the gallery.)
Sir JAMES GRAHAM, in reply, observed, be had beard with
pain and sorrow that the bon. gent. (Mr. Smith) opposed his motion
the more especially when he (Sir I. Graham) considered that the
bon. member had been the associate of Mr. Fox, and one of the
oldest members of the opposition in the house. As to faction to
which allusion had been made, be could Imagine a state of things
when ex-ministers might have some sympathy with the existing
administration; but about three yews ago they had seen
like a factious opposition, and be would ask the Aucener=
whether it was not an opposition that rent the pond heart, and
shortened the life, of the then Prism Minister T--(Clisers.)
General GROSVENOR opposed the motion, amidst loud cries
of " Question."
The gallery was then cleared for a division. The numbers
were—

For the Motion ..
Aplost it
Ma*ity against the Mona;
Most of theordars of the day wae, on air re.admission into the
galleryC
postponed till Monday.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER afterwards moored
fora aka committee on the Acts relating to the growth and add.
vadat of tobacco in the united Madigan.
pu The
nned at Two o nsosining OrdOrdershaving hien disposed of, the House ad.
'Clsek till Monday.