The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-24 00:00:00

admit the force of its tactics, employed Jesuits and other
orders of religious men in the work of conversion. He did
not recollect in the whole range of civil history of any en-
dowed parnehiat clergy effecting any great work of proselytism.
In Ireland there were many strong reasons why the clergy
should not busy themselves in works of conversion ; they were
a visibly endowed clergy, and bad no great motive for zeal ; and
accordingly the Bible, through which they meant to proselytise,
had not been translated into the Erse language until 125 years
after the Reformation, and then it had not been translated at
the expense of the Irish Protestant Church, but at the private
expense of that great and good man, Robert Boyle. The
Right Hon. Gentleman then quoted the opinions of Dean
Swift as to the idleness and riches of the Protestant clergy, and
observed that it would be remembered how the revenues
of the richest sees in Ireland were squandered on the shores of
the Mediterranean ; and his epistles were to be found, not
like those of Peter to his flocks, but in the correspondence of
Lady Hamilton. What a contrast between the minister; of
the one Church and those of another—the one revelling in
wealth, and with nothing to do, and the other visiting the
couches of the sick in their wretched cabins, and from scanty
means ministering to their temporal as well as seiritual wants.
The Right Hon. Gentleman then quoted the opinions of Mr.
Hume regarding the expediency of a State Church, and the
benefits and evils of the voluntary system, and observed that
the Irish Church had exemplified all the evils which Mr.
Hume said belonged, not only to the State Church, but
to the voluntary system ; for it had, un the one
hand, a wealthy and indolent priesthood, and on the other,
ministers whose+ position forced them into every description of
excitement and agitation, The Right Hon. Gentleman went
on to speak of the miseries which Scotland for twenty-eight
years had endured under a Protestant State Church, when
Lords Lauderdale and Dundee commanded there, and asked
what the condition of Scotland would be, if the established reli-
gion of this country were yet kept up in Sc eland—the same
bitter feelings of enmity which existed between the people of
Ireland and England would exist between those of England and
Scotland, and England, distracted by those divisions, instead of
being first in the rank of nations, would be inferior to many now
much beneath her in power, and influence, and dignity.
And what was the result which these proceedings had
brought about ? Why, that Ireland, instead of proving a part
of the strength had proved the weakness of the empire.
What would they think of a physician who having two
patients suffering under precisely the same complaint, had for
1 a long time prescribed the same remedies for both, but having
changed his course of treatment, and keying found that it
was the very remedy which not only abated the evil, but which
cured the disease, yet refrained from adopting the same
remedies for the other patient? They would believe that either
he was dishonest to his profession, or that he had taken
leave of his senses. And why was it that the same principles
which applied to physic should not apply to politics?
With the impression that what was good for one portion of
philosophy was good for another, he should give his support to
the motion of his Hon. Friend. It was riot for him to say
what the larger measure should be, but it was because the plea
was set up for vested rights, for which he entertained the
utmost respect, that he should give his support to the motion
of his Hon. Friend.—( Hear, hear.) Such was the plea of a
Conservative Ministry ; but their proceedings on this qu stion
would give them a clue to the policy of her Majesty's Govern-
ment, and would give them a handle of which they would rot
be slow to avail themselves. He was not one of those depre-
cators, but he would tell the Right lion, Baronet that he was
giving a lesson to Ireland which it was bad fur a ruler to give,
but which a people were: never slow to learn —that the
way to obtain concession within was to agitate for it without.
What was it that had obtained the concession of Catholic eman- 1
cipation, but the agitation which had been occasioned by the
French revolution ? And what was the conduct of the Govern-
ment now ? They were allowing every measure which,
while in Opposition, they had most strenuously opposed—.
_ei beenl
that policy for which Fox, and Grattan, and Grenville, and
Wilberforce, had battled, for the granting of which, during the
' first two months, they possessed peculiar advantages.—( Great
cheering.) What had been the course of the party now in
power ? Why that they had. when in oppesition, opposed every
act which, when in power, they
w layl,
had given when they were in a position
advocates for. But what,on the other hand, had been the conduct
mosthad
redeemstrenuoused
i t
hra t
theythe
of
everytli epceadr party
whichopp os
theyopposed to
ht
to render that redemption useful, and it was from no party pur-
pose, but simply from conviction, that he gave his support to
the present measure. Did Hon. Members suppose that if the
monster meetings hail never taken place, or if th .re had been
no disturbance in America, that the same measure fur concilia-
tion would ever have been introduced? For an answer to this
inquiry, they need only refer to what had been the conduct
of the Government now in power when they assailed the Go-
vernment of Lord Normanby ? Where would have been the
present measure but for the opposition from Mr. O'Connell
and the Pope ? He had blamed the conduct of the Irish Mem•
bers in 1543. He had been led into the conviction, that
higher duties were to be performed by Members of that House,
than the agitation of the public mind, or the discussion of local
questions ; and be thought that the Irish Members would have
been better fulfilling their duty to their country by attending
in their places in that House, than by directing the move-
ments of any party in Ireland, however great He had been
led to praise the conduct of the Hon. Members for Dungarvon,
for Rescommon, and for Waterford, for rendering as they had
done the advantage of those counsels which all allowed to be
great to the public service, which would otherwise, accord-
ing -to his former conception, have been dissipated
in popular declamations; but he had learnt to believe
that the best place in which an Irish Member could
serve his country was not within the walls of the British House
of Co.nmons, but amid the patriotic supporters of the Concilia-
tion Hall, Dublin. The Government had been insensible to
the claims of Ireland till the disturbances in Canada had
awakened them to a recollection of the value of Ireland to the
British empire. Could they expect that any Irish Roman Ca-
tholic could entertain any very great displeasure at hearing the
American frontier was disturbed, when he well knew that such
a disturbance would lead to a restitution of his own rights ?
He would ask, with their knowledge of the national character—
with their acquaintance of the national susceptibility, whether
they could po-sibly expect that any uneasiness should be awa-
kened by the disturbance of the Canadian empire ? The policy
of the Government seemed to be to yield nothing to reason
but everything to force, and the measure now before
the House had been granted rather from a conviction
of the necessity of the measure, than from any strict con-
formity with their predetermined opinions. Such had been
the case when the Irish Municipal Bill had been passed—such
was the case when the grant for rslaynooth was under conside-
ration, Would they now say that the position of the Esta-
Iblished Church was no grievance ? They knew that it was felt
as sileh by the great body of the Irish people. His (Mr.
MaeaulAy a) object in giving his support to this motion was
to render the union between the two countries one of pleasur-
able consent; and his opinion now, as it was whin he was a
member of the Government, was iet the principles of justice
should be respected, let whoever would prefer the claims of
justice; and he would do the same thing now freely, fairly, and
consistently, if the whole of the American frontier were
raging with the flames of war.—( Hear, hear. )
If a new camp, under a new Bonaparte, were
to be found at Boulogne, and England had to
contend with the whole world in arms to preserve
her place among the nations—he would say to the
Government— what you grant, grant freely ; but, what you
withhold, withhold firmly ; for it they granted to concession
what they withheld from reason, they
were only multiplying
complaint, and justifying discontent. Fur ten months he had
had the whole machinery for carrying this motion into full effect.
They expected that the Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor
of the Exchequer would reply that they were unable to
accomplish that which unthreatened they never at-
tempted, and that the Government now in . power
wculd be ready to sink all considerations for present
expediency ; and then, when convictions opened upon them,
the Government, with the Right Hon. Baronet at its head,
would suffer themselves to be dragged through their difficulties
by the same honest men whose
policy they had once vire•
lently opposed, and were now ready to adopt. He blamed no
man for a conscientious change in opinion or policy, when that
change was induced by a difference of circumstances or an in-
crease in knowledge. He knew not if the Right Hon. Baronet
would reply to the many taunts which he had beard, or that
the Chancellor of the Exchequer would express his sense of the
sufferings which he had to endure ;
though he might be in-
clined to relieve the one or to commiserate the other, yet it
was not his business to remove.thene He would not allow him-
self t 3 speak in any terms of their public proceedings or to ad-
vise them how the public peace was to be preserved ; yet he
would say that if the next mail were to bring a notification
that Oregon was occupied—if there were a rebellion in Ire-
land tomorrow, and a fleet of thirty French sail of the line
threatening the American frontier—he
would grant no more to
agitation than he would to justice, for he would grant all that
demand.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that, if he had consulted only
was necessary without force, and all that justice had a right to
as be had in former
House at all upon the present occas on,
his own feelings and wishes, he shriek: not have addressed the
debates addressed them at very considerable length upon
the same subject, and he was conscious that he now could offer
little, if anything new• upon the questi • But the speech
which the House had heard from the Right Hon. Member who
sitien in the
Graham), holding as he did a highuP:sha not think it Govern-
ment,would to trouble them very shortly. ii .
b d •
last spoke rendered it imperatively necessary for him ( Sir J.
on a former occasion
reference to that very
addressed himself to the House with
help feeling somewhat
subject, and he confessed he coulde notthe
two measures brought
be necessary for him to advert to all the. topics em race in the
forward by her Majesty's Government--measures intended as
• dthat,
under surprise
H bl
under the peculiar circumstances, theßightonoara e
conciliatory—be surprised, cons considering
re
er
pi nega
repeated
de
that
natureat
he war
ssomewhat
Gentleman should have brought to their consideration
so muchiof party fealing.—(Cheers.). The Right Hen. Gen-
tleman, in his address, concluded with a hope that justice
would be at last meted out to Ireland, but the peculiar ex-
pression of that hope from a person of high authority like the
Right Hon. Gentleman appeared to him (Sir J. Graham)
likely to create an evil impression out of doors. In the mat-
ter of the Hon. Gentlemans sentiments regarding reproof,
he (Sir J. Graham) g his heart agreed ; and he believed
that no Government entrusted by her Majesty with the con-
duct of public affairs, would think or act otherwise. Nay,
more, he believed butt a majority of the people—not of
Majesty's Government
Government
land and Scotland, of Ireland also, were resolved to the last
extremity to preserve the union of the two countries pure and
inviolate. With that sentiment he need scarcely say he cor-
dially a measure,
had introduced to the
intention e, of conciliation, and
of
they had expressed their
taham) a peeurdsuing a conciliatory
policy. He (Sir JamesHiit lion. Gentlenesan with the opinion
expressed by the
this kind the rule of _ , that in concilia-
torysures of this
dially agreed.—(Hear. hear.) But her
measures Government ought to
sesteces eut to refuso them to
With res
the demands of agitation.respect to this particular
the Right lion. Gentleman had said that it was
measure,
fear of Government, and .
extorted from the not from its jus-
tice.—(Hewn.) Hear.) How different was the
_al. _ b sentiment of the Gallant
t ice.—
Commodore the 51ember for I
.yle one, that he would not
them on that question if he thought it had been
be, to grant them to a.sense of i i h
have supported
nghd
Governmentae isen twhiathd jest) s e.overnment.—
bat this me
(Cheers.) He would say t
t. 1
aa esure, so far from hay-
. been extorted by Renato! far was it from having
ing
to a recent mitunderstantling to which the
Right reference
bail referred, that it - ' le
Right lion. Gentleman , had been deter-
bee Majesty s Government long before, and before
extracted from the fears of her Ma* , ri
breeesnpeet to this subject.
mined on by
announced by his
h ad of the ad
Right Hon. Friend at the e
lion
taVorminent.—( Cheers. )
led to the Right • Gentleman himself and
He appealed Right lionou
the House, if his. rable Friend had
to t
net at the close of the last sessi n of Parliament arinoonced
the intentions of this
There were that misunderst aid:
—(Continued cheers.) persons not politically
1 Government—he did not h •
connected with the „ ,
the mernbeis oitne Irish ier 1
b arp.iy, to eleon
them—they were
d b
this measure annotince i because
- bee been . . . it would have seen
the height of i . l' to have brou ht
•tepo icy ,g forward a measu, 0 of
have been neglecting a most • •
this kind, it would
sideration, if her Majesty's
dGovernment had not, in such
case, consulted the he s ofd the Iriih Cherch.—
ft ,l cheers.) HO sai, then that
(He4et war? en. had
been ,this twa-
in its present shape, cemmenicated before
• sure, N ember t
1 the end of the month of ov
The
, o the authorities to whom
ece.—(Cheers ) measure was therefore pre-
! he had referr
tsthe slightest reference to that • •
I pared without u misunierstandlng
' tp which the fight .
eht on. Gentleman had referred.—(Con-
,l tinged cheers.) The Right Hon. Gentleman had further
said. that this inessuro'had •Leen e:_itorted L-1: fne pfoceeclings' of
Conciliation 14112-411 ear; liPar. ) Ile w, mild again repeat
t wail thee repeal agitatiun had Leen civet turned in Ireland,

nothing whatever would have ',induced her Majesty's Minis- •
ters to bring forward a measure of this kind. The
monster meetings had been put down. Their lead-
ers had been submit ed to trial, and had been

convicted.—( Hear, hear.) He admitted that in point of
form, but not in point of merit, that conviction had been set
aside.—( Cheers. and counter-cheets. ) Law, order, and com-
parative peacefulness now prevailed in Ireland, and though the
Right Hoa. Gentleman had pttt a false construction on the
measure of the Right Hon. Baronet in reference to the agita-
tion in IrelaA and the misundersiaading with the United
States, he (Sir James Graham) would repeat that this mea-
sure was determined on, without the slightest referente to
either of those events. —(Cheers. ) If the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman then was neither authorised nor justified in making

hese observations, he (Sir James -Graham) appealed
.0 the House whether measures of this kind, wi,ich were

calculated to soften existing prejudices and extend more
amicable feelings, should be blasted by such insinuations ?
(Cheers. ) He for one would not envy the success which
.might attend such efforts.—(Continued cheers.) He greatly
regretted the course taken by the Hon. Member for Sheffield
on this question. What said he of the question before the
House? He conceded that it was a good measure, that it
ought to pass, and yet he offered an obstruction 'to its progress.
The Right Hon. Gentleman, the Member for Edinburgh, had
said that this was not a mere question of 26,000/., but the real
matter at issue wau, what Church should reign dominant in Ire-
. .

land, whether it ought to continue the bad without
endeavouring to make it better. The Right Hon. Gentleman,
at the same time, had pointed out that there were certain
limits beyond which her Majesty's Government should not go.
He could speak for himself, that no change of opinion, that no
argument in that House would induce him to admit the prin-
ciple that the Irish Church as an evil in itself, and ought to
be abolished. On the contrary, he begged to state that all

reflection convinced him, that -his most—anxious deliberations

had confirmed him in the opinion that it was the duty of this
country to maintain the Protestant Establishment in Irelani.
He did not wish, in a matter of this kind, to speak reproachfully
of Gentlemen on the opposite side of the House.—(
He must say of the Honourable Member for Sheff►eld, that
no one had argued the questi,.n with more philosophical
discrimination, unless it were the Noble Lord the Member fur
London, who entirely dissented from the views the lion.
Member for Sheffield. ( [(ear, hear.) lie did nut know
what the opinions of the Noble Lord might now be ; but, in
1838, when the Noble Lord brought forward a measure for a
change in the property of the Established Church, ho dis-
tinctly repudiated the principle of this motioh.—( Hear, hear. )
lie ( Sir J. Graham) had heard nothing from the Right Hon.
Gentleman the Member for Edinburgh to lead him to believe
that the destruction of the Established Church in Ireland would

be conducive to the prosperity of the country. or productive of
more kindly feelings between the two great branches of the em-
pire.—(Hear.) The Right Hon. Member for Edinburgh had
said that in America there was no Established Church, but

that there the clergy of each religion, and all the
sustenances of religion, were better upheld than in countries
in which there were established religions, and those well en-
dowed. But he would ask the House, were the conditions of
the two countries to be compared ?—( Hear, hear.) lie felt,
and he was sure the House would agree with him, that to carry
out an analogy would be impossible.—( Hear, hear.) That
the proposition which the Hon. Member sought to establish—
( A laugh)—was impracticable, could be proved by a reference
to the fate of those Governments in whose time the lion. Mem-
ber had introduced it. Lord Grey's Government had felt it im
possible to carry out the principle. Succeeding Governments
gave way before the overwhelming difficulty,but notwithstanding
all the taunts thrown in the teeth of that Government, a mea-
sure relating to education in Ireland was carried without the
intervention of the principle which the Hen. Gentleman now,
for the fifth time, called upon the House to avow.—(Conser•
vative cheers.) There were others more competent than he
(Sir J. Graham) to speak upon this subject, and to go back to
the times of the Stuarts, and other times to which reference
had been made. lie would only say, that the ministers of the
Established Church had performed their duty.—(Cheers.)
They had done so under more trying circumstances than any
which could be contemplated by the opponents of this measure.
—(Hear, hear.) He admitted that it was the chief object of
an Established Church to minister to the religious wants of the
%hole population. —(Cheers. ) But he did not think that the
missionary character of the Established Church would be im-
paired by the measure of the Government ; and it was no part
of their intention to transfer the revenues of that Church to
the 'religion of the majority. The principles which
he had hitherto avowed he still adhered to.—( Hear. )
He objected alike to the extreme measures of the bight Hon.
Member for Edinburgh, and the analogous motion of the Hon.
Member for Sheffield.—( Hear, hear.) The Hon. Member
for Coventry most conscientiously discarded anv intention of
endowing the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland. Lord
Plunkett stated that he considered that the Protestant Church

in Ireland was the strongest bond of union between the two
countries. All he would say was this, that he at that time
foresaw, whatever their intentions might have been, that ulti-
mately this would be the consequence which we have arrived
at for the first time.—(Loud cheers.) He understood the
Member for Nottingham, on the motion of the Hon. Member
for Sheffield, for assistance to the Homan Catholic Church out
of the funds of the Protestant Church, to give a denial of
any such intention on his part. Notwithstanding he always

Foresaw that the inevitable effect of that motion would be

the point to which they had now arrived. He never could
agree to that proposition himself, and circumstances since had
led him more and more tl consider that proposition a dan.
gerous one, and he was now better assured of it. In the
opinions he had already given expression to, he most sincerely
and conscientiously adhered, and he was most anxious that the
wants of the Roman Catholics should be supplied, and that
through the measures they were now considering they should
receive assistance in their education ; but he could nut see that

it would not render it more feasible to the Protestants of this
country, that that assistance should be rendered through the
spoliation of the Protestant Church of Ireland. He would
adhere to the opinion which.he had heretofore stated, and would
decidedly oppose the motion of the lion. Member for Sheffield.
Mr. ROEBUCK said, that when the Right Honourable
Baronet opposite undertook to oppose the motion of the
Honourable Member for Sheffield, he (Mr. Roebuck )
at least expected that he might divulge that some attempt
should-be made to answer the arguments of the lion. Cantle-
man. It did not strike him that the lion. Gentleman had
attempted to answer the proposition offered by him.—(Cheers.)
The only reason which he could deduce for such a failure in
this case was the want of argument to support a cause which
. .

the Hon, Gentleman found to crumble -beneath him. The

Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Edinburgh stated
that the Irish Protestant Church was at that time a worthless

church, because it was instituted for purposes which were at
this time utterly without value. It was a church which in a
large portion of Ireland did not exist. Fsr, let them under-
stand the meaning of the word church. They were con-
staidly confounding the word church with church establish •
ments. They were confounding the payment of a clergy who
were giving consolation to a congregation—they were con-
founding the congregation itself, who constituted that Church, ,
with those pastors who were appointed for the purpose of giving
consolation. That was not applicable to Ireland ; for in a large
portion of that country there was no Protestant congregation,
and it now came to be considered, as the Right Hon. Gentle-
man had stated, that as this property had failed in its uses,
how were they to give assistance but out of the property
which remained in their hands ? The Government said it
was a matter of high importance that this grant should
be made, and the only question raised by the lion. Member
fur sheffield was, where should the proceeds come from to
supply this grant ? Was it to come from the pockets of
the hard-working people of England, or from that portion of
property which they had in their hands, of which the Protes-
tant use had entirely failed? They were not discussing—the
Right Hon. Gentleman did not wish to introduce—any religious
feeling on this occasion; but what did the Right Hon. Gentleman
do? He turned round upon those who supported him, and said that
they were now coming to touch the Protestant feeling of the
people of England, and he himself blows the bellows to excite
it.—( Cheers.) They had supported him throughout, to the
great risk of themselves, slid this was a strange return for the
support which they had given him.—( Cheers and laughter.)
The Protestant Establishment was faithfully described by his
Right Hon. Friend, and had it been attempted to be answered
by the Right Hon. Baronet opposite ? Was it not, at this pre-
sent moment, the great ecclesiastical enormity of Europe ?
( Hear.) Was that description answered by the Right Hon
Baronet ? What did he do when he found a murmur ? He
told them to beware how they raised the Protestant hostility
of England. How was it that his own allegiance roused
that same spirit ? They were prepared to meet all that
was wrong, all that was biggoted, all that was unjust in the
Protestant feeling in England, but they were prepared to sup-
port
the strong feeling of justice on the part of the English
people, that that portion of justice which is to be done to
Ireland should be done at the least expense and suffering of
the great body of the community; and that was the grand
distinguishing mark of the two classes on both sides of the
House. It was a shifting, wavering, faltering policy, after
the declarations made on the ether side of the house; and it
was a sound feeling of kindness and consideraticn,
based upon principles of freedom and liberality, which
induced them to support this motion.—(Hear, and cheers.)
Why did he make this observation, but that it was called for by
the speech which the Right Hon. Gentleman at the head of
her Majesty's Government last made upon the question. He
wanted to know what answer th? Right Hon. Gentleman had
made to the speeches of the Hon. Member for Cork. The
answer was admitted by the Hon. Member frit. Dungarvon ;
but although that answer might have been pointedly made it
was not conclusive. What were the circumstances? " Agi-
tate, agitate," said the Hon. Member for Cork, to the people
of Ireland. " Don't go to England ; it is useless to
do that ; but meet me at the monster meetings. Put
the Government in danger. Frighten the Prime
Minister. Let him see that if a shadow of a
shade of war arise in any part of the world you will coerce
him. Trust me, and when England or the Prime Minister is
frightened, you may rely upon it Ireland will have justice done
to her." Yes, that was the language of the Hon. Member for
Cork, and what was the speech the Hon. Member for Dun-
garvon made in that House? Why, it was a reiteration of the
declaration of the Hon. Member for Cork, and the course he
was now pursuing had a tendency still further to excite arid
irritate the Irish people. What was the course? Was it to
show the Irish people that what was just in time of war was
not just in time of peace, or was it to point out the mode of re-
medying the mischief which had been done by any previous mal-
administration ? No : it was to create discontent and make
the position of the Prime Minister dangerous in the event of
any exigency arising, and thus to make it dangerous for him
to refuse justice to Ireland. Now, he asked the House if these
were not the real causes which had produced the conciliating
declarations of the Right Hon. Baronet opposite. Much in-
justice had been done by that Right Hon. Gentleman to the
great body of the people of ibis country, as well as to a
large majority of that House. They, on that side
of the House, and he believed the country at large
were supporting a measure of conciliation and conces-
sion, and not yielding to one of the violent demands which had
been made by the Hon. Member for Cork, in Ireland, and
reiterated in that House by the Hon. Member for Dungarvon.
They thought indeed that they had been dealing with the
great business of conciliation towards Ireland, until the Right
Hon. Gentleman delivered himself of his speech the other
evening. —( Hear, hear.) But how had they been deceived?
How craftily had the Right Hon. Baronet endeavoured
to cover his object with a flimsy veil w hien
required but little penetration or examination to see through.
The fact was, the Right lion. Gentleman had nearly got rid
of the difficulties at home, and probably in Ireland, by one of
his happy rnse,, By a sudden turn of fortune the Right
Hon. Gentleman fancied he had the Howe of Commons with
him, and this grant was intended as a sop for the Right Hon.
Gentleman the Member for Cork. That was a true statement
of the case. If the Right Hon. Baronet had not discovered a
small cloud of war in the west, he would not have been ilis-
tuibNl. And what was the true interpretation of those words ?
Why. the Right Hon Baronet was afraid of a war with Ame-
rica,—(Cheers from the Opposition.) That was the long and
short of it.—( Hear, and a laugh.) At the same time, the
' Right Hon. Gentleman foresaw something like a rebellion in
Ireland, contemporaneously with the war in America. This,
then, was the sop to be given to Ireland. It was at least a soil
of graceful concession.—( Cheers.) These were not his own
words, b,ut the ideas, if not the words, of Government, and he
dened any man in that House to get up awl make
any other interpretation of the speeches which had been made
by the Right Hon. Baronet. And what was the answer 4-
those statements and promises of the Right lion
More. remarkable 11 hail
for the Home Department ? lie a „IdAi
to the str.tement, and what ws's
on the peeseitt&coort made an unjust appealto ° "ad
r for Sheffield had
BfiarlAne, th'e
Frotes-
.l4nt P 719 of England. The Hon, Menges the
propos that the May-tooth grant should come out of funds.

that were actually unemployed. They were really funds of
a sinecure character, for when the parties died who at present
possessed them, Government would be in possossion of
means to give a proper educatio❑ to the Irish people. Anil
how was that proposition met ? Why they did not want it to
be adopted. They would not emsent to disturb the Church
Establishment in Ireland, because they said it would not be
permitted by the people of England; and the Government,
with a true Protestant feeling, would cot allow the House to
touch it. He was prepared to say the proposition of the Hon.
Member for Sheffield would not in the slightest degree injure
the Protestant Church in Ireland; and in using the term Pro-
tes'ant Church he ti:ed it simply in the sense of a congregation,
and that was the simple explanation given to it by the sup-
porters of the Right lion. Baronet. Now what was the

argument used against the proposition of his lion. friend the
Member fur Sheffield ? The Right Honourable Baronet
adverted to a celebrated article of David flume. and appeared
to think that it was favourable to his own side.

Exrerience, however, proved that an augmented clergyOf;
particular church did not increase the number of the congrega-
tion ; for instance, thew had a large number of Protestant
priests in Ireland, but the majority of the people belonged
to a Catholic congregation. Jr was evident, therefore, that

increasing the number of the clergy was not supporting the
Protestant Church. Nine- tenths of the Protestant clergy in
Ireland stood almost alone amidst a Catholic congregation.—
(Cries of " No, no," from the Ministerial side of the
House.) Hon. Gentlemen on the other side said " No," but
was there any man in that House who had had personal expe-
rience in the matter, who would stand up and deny
what he had said was right ?—( Hear, hear.) Was
there any man who could get up and say that in
Ireland seven-eights of the whole congregation were not of the
Catholic persuasion? Ile was convinced no one could deny it,
far in parish after parish every congregation was Catholic. It
would be much better for the Government to say whether de-

creasing the number of the clergy would not have a better
effect in improving the Protestant Church. They had an op-
portunity of doing so now, for his Hon. Friend the Member
for Sheffield proposed that, as a minister died off, his place
should nut be supplied. The present minister only received
his revenue during life, and at his death there was no neces-
sity for appointing another. Now the means which would
thus accrue to the Government could be easily applied to the

carrying out what the Government seemed lo desire.
the education of the Catholic people, and this wotfd only be.

This, then, was the argument, that they could no longer niain-
tain in Ireland by force that which they had too long main-
tained by that means in that country. lie believed the word
used was " Protestant domination," and that that was the

thing which it was apprehended could no longer be upheld by
force in Ireland. The Government, scring that such was the

state of affairs, they yielded ; but, as upon every other occasion,
they yielded when it it was too late.—( ticar, hear.) That ha.t
been always their policy and their penalty. they tried to do
good when it was too late to do it with any effect.—(l-lear,

hear.) They had not the courage to do right—they were in
dread to do it ; but it was a feeling of dread that made them do
it in the end.—( Hear, hear.) That was not the way to do
justice to Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) He had never been hostile
to the present Government ; but he would say it was hopeless
to expect they would do jussice if they waited to do it upon
inciplcs of terror—( Hear, hcar)—and when they were terri-
fied a little more they would go on doing what they ought to
have done long ago. He had heard so much about this ques-
tion of the Church property, that he would like to ask a ques•
tion in regard to it, namely, Who made this property ?
Was it not the Roman Catholics, for Roman Catholic pur-
. .

poses?—(Cheers)—but property which had been directed by
Protestant power to Protestant purposes. —( Cheers. ) But
now that the Protestant interest had di..d out, it was only fair
to apply it to the very useful purpose of teaching the Irish
people.—( Hear, hear.) He would wish to know why they
should not be so applied? He had not heard any reason why
they should not, as an earnest of their intention to do justice
to Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) And now what was the real diffe-
rence between the Right Hon. Baront's proposition and the
appropriation clause? It was simply what was called the Pro-
testant principle. Hon. Members opposite said that this was a
proposition which, if it originated with Protestant Ireland,
might be consistent, but it should not have originated with
Protestant England. But the attack having been commenced
in England, the assailants hid themselves behind their excesses
in Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) Now, either this was a question
as to a great question, or it was not. It was one which asserted
that England was about to make a proposition for the education
of the people of Ireland, and the means wore to be had without
injury to any one ; arid, therefore, he called upon there to agree
to the grant, if they wished to pacify Ireland.
Sir R. PEEL said he would be very unwilling that the
House should separate until he had protested against the gross
mis-eatements and misrepresentations he had head of what
had fallen from him upon the discussion of this question the
other night. Upon that occasion lie did abstain from all party
recrimination. Ile said he brought forward this measure on
the part of her Majesty's Government, conscious that it would
be well received in Ireland. He stated the feelings of grati-
tude with which it had been hailed in that country.—( Hear. )
He did then, and would now deprecate with anxiety the
chance of a failure of this measure.—( Hear, hear.) He
knew well that the success of the measure (lid depend
upon Hon. Gentlemen opposite, and that w.th them rested
the question whether the measure should succeed or not.—
( Hear, hear.) He said then, and he would say now, that he
meant to do ample justice, as far as it was in his power, to
the motives of those lion. Members who had voted against
the measure, as well as those who had voted for it. He stated
further, upon that occasion, that he knew well that many of
those who had given their support to the Government had
done so at the risk of displeasing their constituents. lie also
stated that many others who had voted in favour of the mea-
' sure had done so at the risk of losing their seats for ever. fie
did not arrogate to himself or to those who sat with him on that
side of the douse, the origin of this measure. On the contrary,
he stated that it would have been much better if it hail come
from those who had been well known to be uniform friends of
the Roman Catholics.—( Hear, hear. ) lie was perfectly
willing to take upon himself all the consequences of the dis-

.
pleasure that he might have incurred, this he stated on Friday
night, and he added upon that occasion ' Visit the Minister if
you will, but let not sour disphAsure fall upon the measure
itself."—( Hear, hear.) It would be base indeed, if they were
to attempt to throw the onus of the support they had
received upon the opposite side of the House, for the indig-
nation it had created should be visited on that side alone.
Ile was surprised at the mode in which the lion. and Learned
Gentleman commented upon this subj,ct. The measure re-
' ceived his support on the second reading. He was perfectly
aware .f the nature of the measure. lie ( Sir R. Peel) ex-
plained fully that it .vas his intention to provide the funds out
of tie public revenue, and he had never given him reason to
suppose that he would consent to the diminution of the furs'ss
of the Established Church. He had never sanct'ssued the
opinion that they would, during any stage of the measure, con-
sent to the appropriation of the revenues of the Established
Church —( Hear, hear.) The Hon. and Learned Gentleman
was perfectly aware of the principle of the proposition of her
Majesty's Government. He ( Sir R. Peel) gave the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman full credit for the motives by which
he was actuated, for he was aware of the stroll..
feeling which prevailed in the city which the Hon. and'
Learned Gentleman represented on this subject, and the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman was ready, as others were ready, to
incur the risk of supporting the second reading. The Hon.
and Learned Gentleman said that he stated that the measure
was brought forward in consequence of the agitation of Mr.
O'Connell. He (Sir R. Peel) stated directly the reverse.
lie stated that during the prevalence of that agitation they
combated it by the law, that they succeeded in Ireland at
least in their appeal to the law, that the consequence was a
suspension of the agitation, at least. so far as the immense
meetings tending to disturb the public peace were concerned.
After this determination to vindicate the law, and after those
meetings were suspended, they considered whether some other
measures might not be adopted which would be likely to afford
a more permanent remedy to Ireland than the application of
physical force.—(Hear, hear.) They, therefore, proposed a
measure making better provision for charitable endowments.
That measure with the exception of sense opposition from a few
Roman Catholics, received the general assent of the House.
Were they then taunted with having yielded to intimidation—
were they not then told that the coarse they were taking was a
wise course? It was not said that there was anything undigni-
fied or dangerous in that course. They were supported by some
ecclesiastical dignitaries of the Roman Catholic Church who
were apposed to the repeal agitation. Mr. O'Connell never
asked for the endowment of Maynooth—Conciliation Hall never
asked for it. But a great number of the Roman Catholic
clergy and laity, who, seeing the spirit in which the Govern-
ment were inclined to act, and that the Executive were inclined
to act in a friendly spirit, asked for this measure ; and it was
more in deference to their opinion, than to any threats or. inti-
midations that they brought it forward.—( Hear, hear.) Nor
did they bring it forward in consequence of their relations with
the United States ; for it might be recollected that he had
given notice soon after the suspension of agitation, voluntarily
and without necessity—without any person calling upon
him to do so, that he was ready to run the
risk of exciting Protestant feelings in this country, and dis-
tinctly declaring that during the present session he would
bring forward the subject of academical education ; and that
he would, at the same time, bring the subject of Maynooth un-
der the consideration of the House. Did lie not add, at the
same time, that they would_act, not in an adverse but in a
friendly spirit ? And did not any person who heard him know
that it was his inter' ion to improve that institution ? He
therefore brought forward the measure. Ile had abstained
from noticing the attack of the Right Hon. Gentleman oppo-
site; and he seemed to be disappointed that he (Sir Robert
Peel) had passed it over. tie would tell the Right Hon.
Gentleman the reasons why he did so. He knew that
the success of the measure depended upon the
votes of Hon. Gentlemen in that House; and it was not far
him to alienate that support by party attacks. He thought it
much more consistent with his duty, to act in that way, being
ready to take the consequences of the success or of the failure
of this measure. Feeling deeply satisfied after proposing this
measure, that the public interests required that it should be
passed, was it not more becoming his position that he
should concentrate every effort to the passing of the
measure rather than provoke party attacks or promote party
recriminations?—(Cheers.) Powerful as were the talents of
the Right Hon. Gentleman, great as were his abilities, yet he
could assure him it was not from any fear of a conflict with him
that induced him to forbear.—(Cheers.) It was that sense of
public duty with regard to the importance of tise measure,
and the effects which its failure would produce in
Ireland, that had led him, after maturely considering
what course he should take, to do that which would best promote
the success of the measure; but the Right Hon. Gentleman
compelled him to notice his attack. The Right Hon. Gentle.
man asked, was it not humiliating that he should promote this
measure? He felt no humiliation—(Cheers)—he felt no
humiliation in discharging a public duty—but he should feel ,
humiliated if, believing this measure to be of importance to the
welfare of Ireland, he shrunk from proposing it, because they
might charge him with inconsistency.—( Cheers. ) But if he
believed it to be a measure calculated to do good in Ireland—
calculated to engender kinder feelings between the two coun-
tries—so far from feeling any hurnilia'ion in proposing it, he
owned to the Right lion. Gentleman that he felt perfectly satis-
fied with the motives and with the act. —(Cheers.) The
humiliation would be if he shrunk from performing a public
duty from any fear of the Right lion. Gentleman hunting
out some passages of his, and charging him with incon .
sistency. lie supported the grant to Maynooth
when
out of office. In 15-10 he voted with the Right
Honourable Gent!eman, and spoke in favour of it when he
was silent.—( Hear, hear.) Ile objected t(‘) the withdrawing
of the vote. Where was then the incon,isteney
mm in support
it now ?—( Hear, hear.) They wished to imidrove the build-
ing, extend the accoo al.ion, eleva'e the e ucat ion, give a
decent allowance to the teachers of youth—whore, then, lie
repeated, was the inconsistency i f nowd supporting a measure
fur the cowinuin to of whictihe'h uniformly voted? The
Right Hon. Gentleman said 'thaat those who voted f'7,-,
9,0001. could not
was absurd
vote for the 26,0 Er;,
besides that it in thos who and
vote for a salary to professors to ho would
would keep them in a starvihrT, v`',' only for' a sum which
Hon. Gentleman himself
Government of w
give increased ee,-cifo 1, t inconsistencyl
beca.us?.4l44ead o'fbe4in ost loalleanreeding
condition. It was the Right
o said so, and yet he accused the
in proposing a grant which would
annual, the MaYnooth, merely
ine.reiaed aidthe grant would be
permanegnt.m ( Hear, hear.) Ile did not then
; reply to those observations of the Right lion. Gentleman, but
' addressed himself to those of the Noble Lord the Member for
the City of London, who took a for different view, and who in
a generous spirit came forward to support the Government in
accordance with a virtual engagement that the Opposition side
of the How IT (mitt support any measure brought forward for the
s--- -