The Sun.
London, England, 1842-05-05 00:00:00

•
Hon. Gentleman who made the proposal, why they did not
bring a measure of their own before the House. But now that
a measure had been brought forward—a measure which, al-
though not in his opinion c.lculated to give complete satisfac-
tion to the people of Scotland, was yet of such a nature as to
afford a good basis for the settlement of the question. and might
be amended in Committee, the Government came forward and
asked the Hon. Gentleman to postpone the measure, because
forsooth they had made up their minds to introduce a Bill
which, from anything he could understand from the explanation
that had been given, was exactly similar to that which had
been repudiated by the people of Scotland when introduced in
another place, and in a former session. And yet the Right
Hon. Gentleman had now taken upon himself to say that he
believed the measure which he proposed to introduce would be
acceptable to the majority of the Scottish Church. Now he
could tell the Right Honourable Gentleman most posi-
tively that the majority of the Church of Scotland, as re-
presented by the Non-Intrusion Committee, had not given,
mad would not give, their sanction to any such measure ;
and if the Government imagined they could settle the ques-
tion on such a basis, let him tell them that they were only
hurrying to a precipitate conclusion, in the very worst
form, upon that great question which was now agitat-
ing Scotland. He had come down that evening to this
House assured, both privately and publicly, up to the hour
he entered it, that the measure would go to a second reading.
He had not only received private assurances to that effect, but
he had received a circular that morning inviting him to be in
his place to support the second reading of the Bill.
Between that and the hour at which ho was speak-
ing, negotiations, it appeared, had taken place
between the Author of the Bill and the Government, and
the people of Seotland were thus to be deprived of
the opportunity of seeing how the House of Commons
was disposed to decide ups) a question in which they
felt very great anxiety. He ahsse)d take that opportunity
of saying that he would reserve to himself the right
of taking any course he might think proper when the motion
was made for postponing the discussion. He should first ask,
however, what was the motion then before the House.
The SPEAKER having said that it was usual with the
Hon. Member who took charge of a measure to move that
it abeuld be read as one of the Orders of the Day,
Mr. CAMPBELL moved that the Bill should be read a
second tim.s that day six weeks.
Mr. FOX sIJAULE said, he was quite aware that the
course which he should pursue, of moving that
this Bill be read a second time, was one which was not
usual, but he thought there were circumstances which would
fully justify him in adopting that course, and the first of those
circumstances to which he would 411gde, was, the deep anxiety
with which, not only the Church of Scotland, but the people of
Scotland, were looking for the decision of the Howie ors the prin-
ciple involved in this Bill. It was the first time that that prin-
ciple had been fairly and fully brought before the House; and he
gave the Hon. Gentleman, who had brought it before the
House, full credit for having done so with the best intentions,
although those intentions had unfortunately been overruled.
One of the great and principal grounds upon which he
thought that this Bill should be read a second time,
and its principle either adopted or rejected, was
the fact, that the Church of Scotland was now on
the point of assembling. He thought it was only fair
to all parties that a vote should be taken on the principle, and
that the Church of Scotland should know whether or not they
had anything to expect from it. Instead of that, the
course taken by her Majesty's Government, was, first of
all to ask the Honourable Gentleman who proposed
this Bill to suspend it for five or six weeks, and in the
next place, to reserve to themselves the power
of negotiating in terms which had already failed of success for
the settlement of this most important question. The Right
Hon. Baronet had stated that this was one of the first questions
to which her Majesty's Government had directed their attention
on their accession to office. He was quite ready to give them
credit for being anxious for the settlement of the question,
but their anxiety only extended to the settlement upon a basis
to which the people of Scotland was not ready to submit.
Their anxiety was to settle it upon the basis of the
Bill introduced by Lord Aberdeen. When the Ho-
nourable Baronet, who formerly hail a seat in the
House, had proposed a clause which contained the
Non-Intrusion principle-in its wildest form, it was stated that
the Government could not, under any circumstances, accept
a settlement of the question upon those terms. Unless
therefore, the Government had retracted that opinion, it was in
vain for the Honourable Gentleman to deceive himself by
any hope or expectation that, if he postponed his measure
for five weeks, for five months, or even for five years,
he would get any measure from the Government which
would be satisfactory to the people of Scotland.
Such was the position of the question at that moment, when
her Majesty's Government wished the Hon, Gentleman to
postpone the recognition of the principles of that Bill to an al-
most indefinite period. He (Mr. F. Manly) only wondered
that the Hon. Gentleman was not asked at once to withdraw
the Bill altogether, because he might rely upon it that
another postponement would be demanded, and fresh difficulties
would be added to all the difficulties that had arisen from the
suspension of the question. Under these circumstances he
would not attempt to go into the great question, which he had
expected to have heard debated that night, because it was
hardly fair to the question, nor did be think he
had a right se far to intrude on the time of the
Members of that House ; and more, he believed that
no observation which he had made with respect to the
position which he intended to take would explain fully to the
people of Scotland the strong grounds for the objec-
tion he felt to that measure, for he believed it
would lead to no good or practical end.—( Hear, hear.) He
believed the Government had not at that moment changed their
minds one iota from the principles stated with respect to
the subject when the Non-Intrusion question commenced.
He did not believe that any Bill would come from
their hands, greatly extending the principles of the Earl of Aber-
deen's Bill, and under that conviction he should move as an
amendment, that the Bill be read a second time then.
_ _

Mr. PLUMPTRE hoped the Hon. Memberf Mr. Campbell)
would persevere in his postponement. He was quite sure the
Government would do what it had promised, and when the
subject came before the House he (Mr. Plumptre) should give
the Hon. Member his support.
Mr. CAMPBELL said this was a most extraordinary step for
the Right Hon. Gentleman to take.—(Hear.) He (Mr.
C.) really could not help being amused at the course which he
of all others had adopted. The Right Hon. Gent. had done him
(Mr. Campbell) the honour to gi►e him credit for good motives
and good intentions, but he did not stop there, for he went on
to say that his intentions and opinions were overruled by those
of his own friends. Now he (Mr. Campbell) would say most
distinctly that of all the gentleman in that House, there was not
one who had a less right than the Right Hon. Gentleman to
make that attack.—( Hear, hear.) He would ask the Right
Hon. Gentleman whether he ever did as much for the Church
of Scotland, when his friends were in power, as he
(Mr. Campbell) would have done now?—(Hear.) Did he
condemn the conduct of Government in delaying to do any-
thing to get the Church out of her present difficulties ? Did
he come forward, as he (Mr. Campbell) had done, with a Bill?
No ! he did no such thing.—( Hear, hear. )
An Hort. MEMBER—Your Bill is withdrawn.

Mr. CAMPBELL continued—No, his Bill was not with -
&awn, it was simply postponed.—(Hear, hear.) The Right
Honourable Gentleman had taken the very great
liberty of assuming that the Bill the Government
proposed to bring in was precisely the same
as Lord Aberdeen's Bill. What right had he to assume anything
of the kind?—(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman
gave no definite description of the Bill he intended to bring in.
( Hear, from the Opposition.) Ha only stated the general prin-
ciples of it ; and he (Mr. Campbell) could do nothing but wait
till he saw what that measure was before he went on with his
own measure. He left his case with confidence in the hands
of the House.—( Cheers. )
Mr. F. MAULE said if the Right Hon. Baronet would get
up and assure the House that the Bill he proposed was not the
Bill of Lord Aberdeen, he (Mr. Maule) should be contented.

Mr. COCHRANE said that he concurred with the Right
Honourable Gentleman- that from what had fallen from
the Right Honourable Baronet at the head of the Home De-
partment, he should imagine that the measure he proposed
to introduce would be very like that of Lord Aberdeen. Ac-
cording to the argument of the Hon. Member, if it weie
not Lord Aberdeen's measure over again, it was a measure more
favourable to the Church of Scotland. He thought 11 postponing
the question, they should be holding out hopes to the
people of Scotland which would not be realized. He should
think from 'what he had heard that the Bill about to be intro-
duced was one which he could not support ; at all events, he
should at present divide with the Right lion. Gentleman.
Mr. P. M. STEWART said, that on one sf the most im-
portant questions of the day, the House was thrown into a most
awkward predicament. How did the Church and people
of Scotland stand in the midst of these disputes, and motions,
and Bills? They were now placed in a most awkward situation.
At what moment had the new light sprung up in the eyes of the
Hon. Member for Argyleshire ? Let him ask him, as a friend of
the Church of Scotland, if he believed that she would consent to
1 its being withdrawn at the very moment of its second reading ?
(No, no.) The Hon. Gentleman said it was not withdrawn,
but postponed ; it was a distinction without a difference.
( Hear, hear.) The measure was postponed for five
or six weeks, and in the interval the General Assembly
of the Church would meet, and the Hon. Member knew, that
at the last meeting of that body, it was considered of
the greatest importance that the opinion of the House of
1 of Commons should be known before the Assembly met
again. In what an insulting ignorance were the people of
Scotland left by the withdrawal of this measure ; and
(lid the Hon. Member withdraw it without knowing what was
the measure which was about being introduced by the Govern-
ment ?If the lynx-eye of the Hon. Gentleman had not perceived
what was the nature of that measure, he must be wil-
fully blind, for it was, to all intents and purposes, Lord
Aberdeen's, and nothing more. One of the objects on which it
was said the measure was founded, was maintaining the civil
right of the patron ; so did the measure of the Honour-
able Member. It gave the people a voice in the
rejection of the presentee ; so did the measure of
the Hon. Member for Argyle. But then came the fatal 1
link for which the Church of Scotland condemned the Bill of
Lord Aberdeen by an overwhelming majority, namely the provi-
sion that the Presbytery should weigh and consider the rejection.
Was not the speech of the Hen. 3lember the Secretary for the
Home Departraent enough to silence the expectation of any
good Presbyterian? He had stated that the Bill of Lord
Aberdeen was abandoned in consequence of the
high state of feeling of the people of Scotland.
But he knew that excitement had not abated. He co.ild tell
them that feeling had by no means abated. On the con-
trary, and it would be seen by this unfortunate proceeding on
the part of the Hon. Member for Argyleshire, it would be seen
by the proceedings at the next meeting of the Assembly, that it
would put further out of reach any settlement of this painful
and harassing question. Scotland had a right to complain of the
course that had been adopted by the Right Hon. Gentleman
the Secretary of State for the Home Depart-
ment. How were they left ? He protested against
the course taken by the Hon. Member for Argyleshire.
Up to last night his colours were nailed to the mast, but now,
at the eleventh hour, they were told that the Bill would be post-
poned for five or six weeks, and that it would be superseded
by one that was intended to be introduced by the Government.
If his Right Honourable Friend persisted in taking a
division on the question, he should divide with him ; at
the same time entering his solemn protest against the
course taken by the Hon. Member for Argyleshire. He would
sit down by saying, Let the blame rest with those who volun-
tarily undertook the task and now deserted their post.
Mr. CAMPBELL admitted that his colours were not only
Lailcd to the mast up to last night, but to the
middle of that day, as it was not till late in
the day that he knew the attention of the Government would
be given to the subject. He thought it was too much that he
should be accused of doing anything to insult the people of
Scotland.
Mr. WALLACE said that although he did not approve of
the Bill entirely, he would vote for its being read a second time
now, in order to have it amended and improved in Committee.
The Bill as it stood, did not go far enough for his views, or for
those of the great majority of the Church of Scotland. This he
asserted confidently; ne knew the fact to be so. The people of
that country demanded a restoration of their right to choose
their clergymen, without any interference whatever by either
clergy or laity, and this, said the Hon. Member, it will be my
d,,ty to obtain for them when the Committee sits. That is, a
full and fair choice of their ministers, and they having been so
chosen." that no interference or any kind of interruption shall be
offered Lhereafter to their ministry, by any set of men whatever,
be they la.ty or clergy. This, in plain homely language, is what
the people of Scotland really want, and no half measures will
`satisfy those rho are conscientious, and this will induce me