The Sun.
London, England, 1829-04-10 00:00:00

LONDON, FRIDAY EVENING, APRIL 10, 1820.

ALLEGED MURDER OF MR. NEALI&-

(Prom Pic Lancet of to-morrow.)
DISCUSSION OF THE LONDON MEDICAL SOCIETY Tirol(

FLUIDITY CF THE BLOOD AFTER. DEATH AS PROOF,

NO PROOF, OF MEIRDXII..
In consequence of the excitement that has been
occasioned, particulsrly in the medical department
of the community, by the report of the evidence of
the surgeons who were examined on the Coroner's
Inquest upon the body of the late Mr. Neale, upon
a point highly interesting to the Society, we give
the following discussion, which tends to impugn the
alleged medical opinions, and which it will he re-
membered are very widely circulated.
Mr. Ture introduced fur discussion the fluidity of
blood after death, as a proof or nd -proof, of unnatural
death. He had been induced to do so, from the evidence
given on this point at the Coroner's Inquest, upon the
body of Mr. Neale, whose dissolution had taken place, at-
tended by circumstances, in the eyes of many, of suspicion
or mystery. He acknowledged himself to have been
greatly startled at the evidence given there, and sent forth
to the public., that the fluidity of the blood proved the en:
fortunate man had, in truth, been murdered.
Mr.-Snitsurx had opened the body of an individual
who had
.died of apoplexy, eight or ten hours after his
death, in the presence of Dr. Clntterbuck, where the
blood throughout the body was perfectly fluid.
Dr. RAMADGE had opened a body within the last three
months, of a person who had died of a diseased heart,
eight hours aftrr death, where the blood was purely fluid.
Dr. JonwsTosrE did not believe that in this case, as far
as evidence had appeared before the public, a scintilla of
it showed that the individual had been murdered. On the
contrary, there was found to be effusion of blood and cue-
gulate lymph, between the tunica arachnoides and pia
mater, fluid in both ventricles, eztravasation of blood upon
the pons verolii, enough to have killed twenty men, and
tumours throughout the brain as large as marble:: these,
combined with the excess of drinking, in which Mr. Neale
had indulged just before his death, were pathological facts
demonstrative to any medical man's mind, that he had died
of apoplexy, and nothing else.
Dr. RYAN had been greatly surprised at the turn this
case had taken ; at the same time he could not but think
the fluidity of the blood had a great deal to do with the
medical decision upon the case. Many of the best authors
who had written on the subject, had laid it down, that the
fluidity of the blood after death was to be regarded as
proof of an unnatural death. The circumstances of the
present case might show that such doctrine could not ap-
ply here. In the body of a person killed by lightning, the
blood was found in a fluid state ; and soo, too, where a
person died of asphyxia. _ _ _

Mr. CALLaWAY, the President, had no doubt that
where life had been suddenly extinguished, the blood would
afterwards be often found uncoagulated. This subject was
one well deserving of great investigation, and the most
serious consideration, therefore be recommended the dis-
cussion of it to be resumed next Monday evening, the time
for breaking up having arrived.
(Discussion continued, Monday, April 6, 1829.)
The PRESIDENT respectfully invited a renewal of the
digression on this very important subject; and, in doing
so, hoped the gentlemen who might join in conversation
would avoid discussing the data of those circumstances
which had lately transpired, and, in fact, given rice to the
original discussion. A suppositious case, with given facts,
might be assumed, on which the discussion for all useful
purposes might be most satisfactorily conducted.
.Mr. hue, who had introduced the subject to the
notice of the Society, had, since the Society last broke up,
met with a case very much, as he conceived, analagous to
one that had of late been brought before the public, and
which he begged permission of the Society to relate.
Having seen the body after death,. he expected to be sum-
moned before the Coroner's Jury, therefore he wished to
be assisted by the members of the Society, in hearing
their opinions upon the facts of this case, which had, at
this moment, so singularly happened to come under his
notice, and which he should proceed to relate. Before,
however, he did so, he wished to correct a statement he
had made at the last meeting, namely, that Mr. Baily
began by exhibiting psarter grain doses of the extract of
belladonna ; on referring to that gentleman's work, he
had found the first dose to be "from a grain and a half
to two grains." The particulars of the case he had to
submit to the notice of the Society were these:—
Mr. H—, setat. 62, of short make, and rather a
plethoric habit. General health had been good, although
he had been a very free drinker. Latterly had become
much altered in his circumstances, and unable to procure
much spirits ; but when he drank, was observed to be
more than unusually affected by it. About three months
ago was taken in a fit at a public-house, but, on being
removed home, recovered without aid. On Thursday,
April 2, was brought home very drunk. On Friday
he talked thick, although no particular appeerance
about him called for observation from his gamily, exr
cept that it was supposed by one or two that his mouth
was a little drawn to one side. On Saturday, at eleven
A. 31., lie requested a light from a neighbour, and from
that time until about ten P.M. was not seen ; an indivi.
dual having called at his house about twelve at noon, and
not having been admitted, created a belief that he must
have been in the fit about that time. When first disco-
vered in the evening, he was lying on his right side, the
left leg thrown over the fender, his head in the corner of
the room ; and from the plaster near the floor being in-
jured with portions of hair sticking in it, corresponding
to a mark on his head, it was evident to Mr. Iliff he had
fallen against the wall. There was a alight wound on the
right temple from which blood had issued, and some was
collected on the floor. The right cheek was also bruised
and flattened by laying on it. The nostrils were sur-
rounded with a frothy mucus. The right arm bent,
with the hand pressed over the stomach. The fingers
contracted. The left arm and hand placed over the bowels.
The pupils rather contracted, equal, however, in size ; and
theconjunctive suffused with blood. Upon examining the
♦arious glasses and vessels in the room, none appeared to
have contained any thing of a noxious quality. On con-
ducting the post mortem examination on the 56, at two
, (perhaps twenty-six hours after death), in the
presence of Dr. Wilmot, Mr. Clark, and Mr. Garraway,
Mr. Iliff found, in the general appearance of the body, no-
thing very remarkable, except that, on the left side, the
face was a little drawn up. The head carried back, and
the jaws closed : skin about the thorax of a light purple
colour; arms fixed over the body; muscles rigid ; the
face of a livid character ; a bruise on the right cheek, and
a wound on the right temple; a large scrotal hernia on
the right side ; the temperature of the body cold. Upon
dividing the scalp, a larger quantity than usual of blood
escaped, quite fluid. Beneath tl_e snip, under the super-
ficial wound, considerable ecehymosis. Dividing the tem-
poral fascia, the muscle was observed to be partly covered
with a coaguluin of dark blood. The dura mater not at-
tached to the cranium by strong adhesions. The tunics
arachnoides considerably thicker, and more opaque than
usual ; between it and the pia meter a gelatinous fluid, par-
ticularly upon the superior part of the two hernaipheres.
The vessels of the pia mater nea►ly emptied of their con-
tents ; the substance of the brain rather firmer than usual ;
and when cut into the vessels appeared with open mouths,
but empty. About eight ounces of fluid blood and serum
escaped from the brain and vessels leading to it, during
the examination. At the upper and outer part
of the middle lobe, on the right side, a small
cyst, about the size of a pea; and at the posterior part of
the anterior, and inferior part of the middle lobe, a large
apoplectic cyst, about the size of a large walnut, containing
some coagulated blood—the walls of the cyst appearing
like brain broken down, and presenting, in some parte; a
yellowish hue. The ventricles contained about half an
ounce of serum. The plexus choroides more vascular than
usual, and a number of small tumours attached to it; a
little vesicle was also observed here. The pineal gland par-
took more than usual of a sandy character. The lungs
healthy, but alight adhesions of the plura costalis
to the plura pulmonalis. Stomach healthy, and
contained a fluid like milk or thin gruel, with no
smell. Intestines healthy. About a foot of the small,
same extent of the colon, (both healthy,) and a large por-
tion of omenturn, were in the scrotum. Liver firmer than
usual ; gall-bladder about half filled with yellow bile; spleen
softer than usual ; kidneys soft, enlarged, and containing
more fat than natural. Great thickness of the parietes of
the heart, still further thickened by a coating of fat. Di-

(Station of both ventricle', as well as the right auricle.
Ossific dOoeite (ot• Something bordering upon it) in the
aortic valves--distinctly essific in one. .!Te coagulum
whatever in the heart. On cutting through the vessels,
all the blood fluxed out ; and, in every part of the sys•
tem, it was found to be perfictly fluid, save the slush
coagula,hefore mentioned.-'
Dr. GOR SMITir 1.11,1 been induced to attend from
dip
having rea - the orrtiqt, Papers, that a discussion was
to take place tis rtiei;s, which would go far in deciding
upon whether the life of a fellow-subject was to be cut
short or not, within a very few hours from the time of
the discussion. Though perfectly unconnected with that
individual, he (Dr. Smith) had that day had an interview
with. his solicitor, and who, through an introduction, of a
member, was also preient in the Society, for the purpose
of listening to the opinione_ that were to be given. He
(Dr. G. Smith) was sure, that no !mei could feel more
loyalty to a chair than himself, rind though, in most in-
stances, he would hearti c cur in the President's re-
commendation, yet, on ' asion, when the facts of a
particular ease had gone the public, in a report so
absurd as .to have beeeslia y equalled in the forensic
world, lie thought it vivid .tO much more humane and
creditable to depart Prot s& thnistrict rule, and for every gen-
tleman to express freek*liat he thought on the sub-
ject. Who drew up lbe-- report alluded to, it was
not necessary for liiinlo inquire; but he, for (Mc,
should live nO besitatipti,* going forward on the ap-
proaching dial to state, recording to his experience, the
perfect irrelevancy of every part of that report. It had
given him great pain to find it sent forth under the sane-
tion of some very high names ; but as happy had he been
to perceive, that no sooner had it made its appearance
than the world found fault with it. The public now
looked to the Medical Society of London for a just deci- I
sion on the question ; and he trusted that no fastidiousness
would induce the President to prevent, or discountenance,
the free and candid discussion by every member upon the
facts of Mr. Neale's particular case, as they have been pub-
lished. The life of a humble individual was at stake, who,
probably, had but a small share of the worldly means of
defending himself; and the utmost inconvenience any gen-
tleman could be put to for expressing his sentiments would
amount to being subpoenaed to give evidence on the trial
that was soon to take place.
The PRESIDENT observed, that the case to which the
last speaker had referred, with a feeling that could not
fail to do hint great honour, was a case, as yet, sub judice ;
a case, the facts of which were by no means before the So-
ciety, in a manner in which its members could take notice
of them. It was true, the alleged opinions of highly re-
spectable medical gentlemen had been reported in the pub-
lic papers, but how was the Society to knew whether
those representations were correct or not ? If the mem-
bers were to enterinto a discussion upon the validity of opi-
nions, in the absence of the authors of those opinions,
great injustice might be done, inasmuch as it might turn
out, that they had never either entertained or offered such
sentiments. On no account could it be done without great
indelicacy. Under these circumstances, and as it was com-
petent for all that was aimed at to be elicited, without ad-
verting to the particular case now before the public, and
especially as the Society had the facts of Mr. Mfrs cage so
elaborately and distinctly before it, he contiaued to hope,
that gentlemen would not allude to the case that wa,s about
to be judicially disposed of elsewhere.
Dr. JOHNSTONE cordially joined Dr. Gordon Smith in
inexpressibly regretting the conclusions coma to by the
Chair. He had the honour of introducing this subject to
the Westminster Medical Society, on the preceding Sa-
turday evening, when there were nearly eight Members
present. All who chose to speak on it, had the entire liberty
of the President to advert to whatever names and facts tkey
pleased, without the slightest prohibition ; and, in conclu-
sion, one and all, with a single exception, were hesitatingly
of opinion that Mr. Neale died a natural death ; that he
had died of apoplexy, and that there was not a shade of
evidence which could by possibility lead any reasonable
man to a different conclusion, or make him have, the
slightest suspicion that violence had been used to produce
death. He (Dr. J.) • again recapitulated the morbid 'ap•
ppearances of the brain, and which he was sure, fully bore
out his judgment as to the cruse of death. The body of
a man who had died of inflammation of the lungs only a
day or two ago, at St. George's Hospital, was opened 18
hours after death, and his blood was found to be entirely
fluid. Dr. Christison, who had made many experiments
on the blood, had -found blood to flow in a perfectly
fluid state from veins, sixteen hours after death:—
Dr. Beck, in his Medical Jurisprudence, said that where
persons died from the effects of over-doses of opium, and
who sometimes lived for hours after having taken the
drug, their blood would be found to be in a fluid
state after death. So with persons who bad died front
indulging in an excess of wine, or spirits ; as well as
with persons who died from taking hydrocyanic acid, and
other poisons. In the end Dr. Beck had brought him-
self to believe, that little or no evidence was to be collected
from the state of the. blood after death. Mr. Shillitio,
who had been a surgeon in the army abroad, related, at
the Westminster Medical Society, the circumstance of
about two hundred soldiers having fallen into a state of
apoplexy, in consequence of excessive drinking, five of
whom died, and in the bodies of those he had opened,
sometime after death, the blood was found fluid. Thee
circumstances, coupled with ninny others that might be
enumerated, made it to his mind morally impossible to
come to the conclusion, that this individual had been mur
dered, nor did he think any person could come to a con-
trary determination, wi;:lie,:t at the same time arriving at
the very acme of inean.'e.
Mr. SHEARLY, ntiarcd by the most benevolent mo-
tives, had been to Newgate to tender himself as a witness
against the opinions that had gone forth to the public.
However much he felt it his duty to agree with the Pre-
sident in all his dicta, yet for his life he could not get the
eyes of his understanding so widely opened, as to perceive
any thing like a humane, just, or practically useful end to
be obtained ny the restrictions that had, on this occasion,
issued from the chair. The body of Captain Clarke,
who lived within a few doors of himself, and who died of

apoplexy, was opened some time after death, in the pre-
sence of himself and Dr. Clutterbuck, and there the blood
was fluid throughout. Regard being bad to the post
mortem appearances of the brain, connected with other
circumstances, the individual alluded to must have died of
apoplexy. As to the external marks about the nose, as
both men were drunk, as they had rolled together on the
floor, and as they had fallen together, it was highly pro-
bable those black or blue marks had been got in that way.
There was no appearance of any strangulation having been
attempted. Sitting on the pectoral muscles might occa-
sion death.
Mr. PlEasE felt surprised at Mr. Shearly's last obser-
vation. He was tetllly at a hoes to know how sitting on a
man's pectoral muscles could occasion death.
Mr. SHEARLy meant to have said respiratory muscles ;
and by pressure upon them, there could be no doubt that
dissolution might lie effected.
Dr. STEWART, on turning to the index to Morgagni's
works, found at least 50 cases on the state of the blood
referred to. Some of the individuals bail died of fever,
some of inflammation of the lungs, some of sudden death
from apoplexy, others of sudden death from untraceable
causes, and so on. There were hardly two of the cases
alike in any two particulars. Some of the bodies ware
examined the day after death, some within a short time
afterwards,
and generally, as was stated, at a short period
after death. In some, the blood was found to he nearly
coagulated, in others entirely fluid ; in others coagulated
in the heart, but fluid throughout the rest of the body ;
in others again, fluid in the heart and great vessels, but
coagulated throughout the other parts of the system, and
so on—the whole in some particular or other varying.—
Under this authority, no sensible man could conclude, that
the individual who had been referred to had died of a vio-
lent death.

Dr. RAMADGE believed he bad opened as many bodies
as any medical man in existence; be had opened 1,000
bodies of patients who had died of one disease. lie had
seen the blood fluid in more than a dozen instances. One
body he perfectly recollected having opened eight hours
after death, where the blond was fluid. The report that
had appeared before the public, in his estimation, did not
warrant a Jury, or a medical man, to come to the conclu-
sion, that the individual had died of a violent death ;
neither did he place any reliance on the state of the blood,
as enabling a person to form a judgment on such a question.
Mr. WALLER wished to know what the patient had
died of in the particular case referred to by Dr. Rarnadge,
because he believed, that in cases where death was occa-
sioned by disease of the heart, and in other viscera of the
thorax, it was by no means uncommon to find the blood
in a fluid state after death.
Dr. RAXADGX replied, that the patient had had disease

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PRICE 7D.

of tlta'.'btatt; she had likewise been subject to repered
Immo*liage from the uterus; and, on opening the body,
the lungs were found to be in an cedematous state, which
regattled as the proximate cause of dissolution.
, Mist P4tocroa had had em opportunity of seeing the
bodies Id persons who bad been xilleti bk lightning opened,
And there the blood Was found to be invariably fluid ; and
not only that, but the muscles were found to be unrlgid
for 60 or 70 or more hours after death. In persons, again,
who had died under the influence of ardent spirits or ati-
mull, the blood was very frequently fluid, and the muscles
not rigid for 48 hours after death; and this Mr. Hunter
had attributed, as he (Mr. Proctor) thought, to a very na-
tural effect, that of the stimeli.
Dr. WALSHAM said, that Mr. Hunter, in his work
upon the state of the blood, inateuced the ease oft hare
that had been hunted to death, in`•hich the blood was al-
ways found to be in a fluid state. He observed, that'in
such cases there was not a sufficiency of the vital power in
the blood, to coagulate He regarded the coagulation
of the blood, as well as the rigiditj of the muscles after
death, to depend on the degree of suddenness With which
animal life was extinguished. If the living principle of
else blood was instantaneously destroyed, coagulation and
rigidity could not take place.
Mr. TAUNTON wished the President to explain the state
of the blood he had generally found in bodice where death
had been occasioned by apoplexy.
The PRE'SIDENT said, that where sudden extinction of
life bad taken place, be had.-generally., found the blood to
be in a fluid state. No doubt many present would recol-
feet that, in dissecting the bodies of persons who had been
hanged, and where life had been by other means cut short
suddenly, it was necessary for them to have kept their
sponge pretty close to their scalpel. In the body of a per-
son who had died last summer of apoplexy, to which he
had been called after death, he had opened the jugular vein,
from which a little blood flowed at the time; and, on
going into the room on the next day, he was perfectly as-
tonished to find the immense quantity that had issued from
the orifice. Even then it was only necessary to lift the
head gently up, and to 'make slight pressure on the vein,
to urge out a father quantity in a fluid condition.
The REGISTRAR observed, that• Mr. Wray had wished
the Society to be informed that he had met with the body
of a boy found dead, from which, by opening the jugular
vein eighteen hours after death, the whole of the blood
flowed from the system in a fluid state.
Dr. JOHNSTONE conceived that Dr. Welshman must
either have mistaken the writing of Mr. Hunter, or that
Mr. Hunter• himself must have been misinformed respect..
ing the instance of the hare, because the fact was, that if a
hare was sprung upon and killed immediately by hounds,
on eviscerating it, the blood would be found fluid ; but if
she were hunted for two or three hours, and then killed
instantly by the dogs, there would not a drop of blood
flow in evisceration, and the muscles would be found stiff.
This showed that no importance was to be attached to the
mode of death, since so many circumstances bore oa the
fluidity or non-fluidity of the blood after dissolution. Fur-
ther, in cases of apoplexy there was often found to be ex-
travasation of urine, extravasation of the fasces, and seminal

emission.

Dr. WHITING (a visitor) felt satisfied that there was
often an entire fluidity of the blood after death,—that is,
that there was no contraction of the fibrin. There was
often a complete separation too of the fibrin, leaving the
serum and red particles of the blood mixed together, and
which gave the appearance.of a fluidity of the blood.—
He was by no means a believer in the vitality of the
blood, therefore he could not fall in with the sentiments
that had been advanced by one of the speakers. On the
contrary, lie felt firmly convinced there was no more vi-
tality in this, than in any of the other fluids of the body.
He should be ready 'to support these opinions whenever
called upon to meet any gentleman entertaining different
notions.

----
Mr. BRIA Nl' was surprised at this position, and hoped
to see Dr. Whiting at the Society on a future night.
Dr. RAMADCE attempted to exhibit some morbid
specimens, but the .-President informed him that, as
the time for breaking up had arrived, he should dissolve
the meeting, adjourning the discussion of the night till
next Monday, when he had no doubt it would be ably re-
earned, and when he hoped to have the pleasure of seeing
Dr. Whiting again as a visitor.