Star.
London, England, 1808-05-20 00:00:00

by referring to the positive prices this year, presenting the pernicious effects of the stoppage. He
owning them with the prices paid for some ontended thethat
w revenue would suffer a great de-
s. He wished to argue this entirely as a lcation from the
huntpro umpcoosnesdme so mucheasure,a ndginthraat ianpfpaiCit.
Lion. By every information which he had e distilleries did
nu Scotland, it was particularly desired in ble to the food of man as was supposed, for much of
ithe country, that the distillery from grain • hat they used was damaged, and of inferior quality.
be stopped. In the North of S4cotland there Mr. CORWEN thought the present measure of
amity, amounting to an absolute famine.— such magnitude and importance, that it ought not to
lend he would be borne out in this statement brought under the consideration of Parliament,
Honourable Baronet (Sir J. Sinclair), and he unless by some person connected with his Majesty's
surprized, on understanding that he inten- Government. He should avoid arguing the subject
in thepartial oipese the measure. The prices of corn werelight wherein it had been reported on by
) high, that the farmers could not complain of the Committee. He regretted the agitation of a
on, ; and if there had been no other grounds question of this nature at all, as it always creates a
necommendation in the report, but merel Bri- spirit of speculation in the country, which always
,he thought the measure would beproy proves
tt ruinous to a great portion of the individuals
i,been at first intended to propose the stopping the. embark In it. He said, that however much he
' - for a year, from the Ist of July, but he now respected the characters of those members that con-
, pursue a course somewhat different. Yes- posed the Committee, yet he maintained that they
~when he came down to the House, he felt per- were totally ignorant of the landed interest and the
oared to bring forward such a proposition,buty
tagiculture of the country. It was impossible that
given to understand, that the opinions of
im. measure
t could have been long in contemplation of
expectable Gentlemen might be conciliated, and s
otas a preventative against scarcity, or they
, public advantage derived from postponing it would not haved reasoned
. in the manner they did. The
gather day. This was the only reason for cultivated
l land in in this country was always sufficient,
'• be postponed it ; and it was not at all with if properlycu mated, to support double the number I
view of accommodation to his Majesty's Mini- d'- inhabitants. He regretted that so much weight
by letting the Local Militia 8111 come before it. 1 had been laid upon the report of the Committee during
! had also been a very formidable objection, the debate, and he wished that the question had been
was almost insurmountable. It had been the considered alone, without any reference whatever to
of the Committee to propose the suspending the the Report.
moose of spirits between Ireland and Great Bri. I Mr. MARIOTT maintained, that a most ample case had
sin,' awing the continuance of this act. This had, 1, been made out for adopting the proposed measure. He read the
I reports of several of the former Committees, to prove the dis-
been strongly objected to, as directly con- i tressed state of the West India Planters, and'
that unless some
tary to the Act of Union. The Resolutions 1;
.I;releanrseoefrtreolifefhwere afforded them, their ruin was inevi-
which he now intended to propose were, first, " That I table.). present Committee shewed that that dis-
t]x distillation of spirits from wheat, oats, barley, 1 tress had since increased,
tCommitteeconfirmedby t he price
simplified tir
sugar in the Gazette. The present
malt, flour, meal, pulse, &c. should be prohibited in I rent of
itthheeporho.ceedings of former Committees, and got the better of all I,
the United Kingdom from the Ist of July next to the 1
injury jethctaitonthsethraevt had formerly been urged on the score of the ,
led October ; and secondly, that it should be law-would
the sustain. He denied that if this I
ftl for his Majesty, after the 'lst of September, to con- I measure were adopted,eil
agriculturalofthe systemreaent ofeatrhe country
andy it couldwaa not
utile, by proclamation, the said prohibition for thirty bewould be deranged. The harvest
injured, as the corn was already grospving ;
/22 after the meeting of Parliament. He also in- likely,
merw oasuldthheimeas measure to be a temporary one, that the far-
vied, if the Bill should be allowed to go into aby it from sowing as much grain as usual
Committee, to move a reduction of duty on sugar- in 1809. There deterredwas coofuntry for grain from
Sweden, which country emucnh in want
rash, so as to enable the distillers to make use of su- ecnosirbni.e.He
The West
1 that some precautionary measure was indisp
in their distilleries. He had understood that theplantations had for some years returned nothing to their
west in Ireland had been very deficient, and that I India
o although the
e plant tferfis had augmented the revenue of the
ire was already a considerable scarcity felt in some I countryurs'
to the millions,
handd
beenhad afforded
h the
•of it. Under these circumstances, he thought, I means of cherishing her navalo
strength.ye.
thetoupgtht
1 visable to take possession of many foreign colonies,auadc:
without at all considering the interests of the
fish
bad been allowed to enter into competition in the Bri-
Indies, the measure would be good in itself.-- les; produce of
on the
h British Islands, although
6h he did not now consider himself authorised those io.ntts lvanctihbette cultivated elainin
_t. a
toput the question, on the ground of relief to Vl/4rest I monopoly. On all these ground. net successfulheoptedaitlinoortheirr
t on would be made to the proposed measure.
lila Merchant and Planters, yet he would say that LiAocOIGNE was anxious to know what had become
their wants were most urgent—that there were many 'of Crerale alluded
'For
yesterday, of which neither side
rat estates which made little or no profit, and that 1 wernedetOttlin"roW any vhadit purpose was the,Commit-
arWest India body did appear to him abundantly en- ' tee appointed ?:I oconstile'r theolfur‘tfhteb the
oNn
se.
dstL
ralntidot
Plante, s ;.—and was he now to be cos
ntfirneed too
titled to some relief. He thought that the distresses i alone ?He combated the arguments of
the West India Planters could not be fairly attri. I 4),L scarcity in this rountrY
interest,alon eo, ftotehauddvocatitehs for the high price of provi-
boted merely to their wild and imprudent specula- 1 e sins. The Colonies
yearsde a nad
sufferedrelief
ffrom the
h
tions, but that a great part of them was to be attri-i remote of the times, having for manyyewith
rir,umnridt
toe ,
tary measures that had been adopted
bated to the system pursued by the mother country , ~......,
and by which they were prevented from entering' into a
with respect to them. He wished, however, that the ' '*--- ' -
cfroommpetthineonricien
offoreignh markets with foreign colonists. So far
subject should now be considered and argued as a Bri-risen, in consequence of the sitting
tish, and not a West-Indian question. He concluded lof the CoP itteer,nints ma•aysliopinion, that the rise would
by moving, " that the Report of the CI immittee be I have been double, had such a his Committee not sat. The suspension
would operate only on a third of the importation. The report of
referred to ^ Committee of the whole House. the Committee stated, and statedd truly, that the distress was urgent
Mt. COKE Wcii very sorry to see any measure in- and required early ia etft:bthoadentLetohitshratensvonloatet• a period, of the
t- :heed which would tend to deprive the la lea in- sessionshewed, thatre
i If the House knew the distress of the county ti
which t o amhtelsheatdhetZ
serest o.: a market which took off the surplus of theo.
1 honour to represent, the landed interest would not argue, as they
!train. He hoped that it would not be -,l.7posed, that 1
.(., 4retlanbe, againstd a.measure by which corn would be rendered
retlemen were always. ready to contr.. ' •-::
:LreitTa,un
seemed
pelodhiosieouwihomexprcalsed
edalarm at the ides of a
ahighprice of corn. They did not W 11.11: t hig' oetretna,ar
whichn when
eeHn any
yse
swubsaatitatiette
tiey only wanted a fair remunerating price. t ~, 1.,;.- grain was offered. prodigiously
thr.g, was the relief of the West India Planters, who had askedse-
liatie Lord had argued on the present high price , ... • lief in the best mode in which it was possible to grant it to them.
corn ; but, until very lately, the average price of it in i N hat would the House have said, if th • Coloniss hail requested
Norfolk had been but 40s. a quarter. The rise had the loan of a few millions > He did nhoet'eb,nliidevneotaneynttiheitlig would
taken place within the last ten days, and he had no I shake their loyalty, but he' felt th.it
for the effect, which withholding relief might produce.uplonartliewienr
doubt, in his mind, tett that the cause which produced
ecivatri
tChaoto
theCH oypo sed the present question, because he con-
that rise was the knowledge that there was a Com.
were agriculturists,
atatkT which were the vital interests of the
ranee sitting upon this subject. .The Report how- country,
he
could
has he felt for the distress of the
ever snowed that the permanent adoption of stich a West lnlia Merchants, he never put that circumstance into
competition with the discouragement of agriculture.
measure would be attended with great danger to the Milo W.
the Committee
dwelt on the circumstance that the
landed interest. In the county of Norfolk, the barley did not
.recalothmonutteendththc extension
ra of the
system was the most prevalent; and there was at least measure of suspension to Hede as
onofounh more produced now, than there was ten willingness to give a decided opinion on the't
sillepctr.o.
tremely surprised, therefore, to find that the Noble Lord proposed
or fifteen years ago. Instead of importing, as they
ao r.esiolution in which that suspension was extended, which, in his
formerly did in that county, they were now able to - pni otn,,wdasunhinfraction of the Act of Union, and one for which ,
export something for the general good of the empire. no er had
n tbeen laid.
n
ahoid moire for the ,
He hoped that the time would arrive, when there Committee,gons whenwaitatLlpuproseposoti,atohz „
would be no occasion for irriporting at all ,• but this omission o the word " United Empire" efeor theu
stiThun'e E" tliNatLpFarLtLoof tßhe United Empire called Great Britain." ,
he was sure of, that he never remembered the price of
no
means svgs
supported ed the.,
corn more steady and stationary than it had been Bill, and said that it by
Bill
shouldt the u interests
ot ex-
There
ism the importation from other countrieshad ceased. of the Country, but highly beneficial. Islfetjhe
tend to Inland it ssould give the people of that country a very
_.had) een little or no variation in the prices un-
great cause of complaint, as it would seem that we were taking
tills Report had got wind. He thought the Noble
cscoarnscuitnyworiteirain nditntinGr!oant Britain, while we
h
lord had most completely shifted his ground, as it ppreL;cnatiutiateotinslraeflaainndstto
was universally understood that hit propositions were 1 trade in the article of grain was free and uninterrupted', assctare-
le be brought forward by him as Chairman of a Com- 1 city in one island must in some degree drain the other; therefore
the same precautions ought to be taken for each. He admitted
rtittee appointed to consider what relief should be I
thatthe chololanniadledinterests
given to West India Planter.* and Merchants ;—and i weret
opposittnet,eraerstltsthoafttthhee loannedendmastndfalulf
yet now he had stated that he wished to have it con- , prevail ; boat he thought the landed could not the
eject to makeheu Ida
sidered not as a West India question, but as a Britishl small sacrifice to support the colonial. The evidence of Mr.
Arthur Young, he said, put the neceksity of retrenchment in the
one. We had captured a great many West India ,
consumptionwasllrtbseyoofntdheacodoubt, as hedsaie d the produce of last year
Islands, which were stated to be very valuable, but he Iannual
ro
hilseltrurasbted less
sheepthanthes
did not suppose that the real worth of many of them 1 comomptipo:i. upon theusnvholeeo,
welt so great as an ozier bed in the River 'Mantes.-- I vided to be taken under the Bill would complety do away every
alarm
roefetlive landholders, and that the measure on that account
If, however, the measure proposed was now to pass,
be hoped that it would be a very long time before a would
r.ir. p
oeiN
se
o theirN EyC OnneCyllefir
enfelrteMore surprise than he had done
ap measure
. 0 injurious to the landed • interest would on the introduction of this measure, to hear it stated that the sub-
ject was one purely British, and that the West India interest had
In be submitted to that House.
Sir WILLIAM CURTIS conceived, that in the no claim whatever. By the injudicious manner in which the Noble
Lord
inhatdereesztpraenssdedhadhlomostelf,
bonehketehdad
sienxclietteopptositition frond
Rue dii
present circumstances of the country the resolutions
ctated by sound policy, and deserved the sup-' not possibly move for the Speaker's leavingg the Chairres 'after ethceourte-
PM Of the House. 1 solutions that had been read by the Noble Lord. He commented
Sir J 7
.. . SINCLAIR said, that having been person- lon the manner in which the Right Hon. Gentleman had treated
that part of the report of the Committee which infringed on the
ally alluded to by the Noble Mover of the Resolu- I Union. The distinct proposition on this part of the
lions, he thought itnecessary to rise thus early in i saruttioceeets,oiffitdid not directly infringe the articles of the Union, yet
purposes for which those articles were formed.
the debate. it was certainly true, as the Noble Lord counteracted the
Adverting to the high price of grain, he asked, whether that was
had stated,
that there was a considerable scarcity in
an a fcir cutting off themmarket of the farmer, and affecting
bi the North of Scotland, and it was natural for him to be his industry
m that and
one which o
nterprize:e
must
asnodepttehnedlan,
butti
in the Gcontetstßwrihttnh
ertremdy anxious that this scarcity should be relieved; and Ireland
If agriculture were injured, the country
oat the same time, as a Member of the British Le- we were carrying on ?
Lature, he was bound to look to the general irate- I was undone. Without any considerable advance in the price of
merely from
r an apprehension
toent of such
d an event,
rests. of the country ; and he did not think that these ;tern in
Ikreethnof'abeutl off,
Thea n a
pricesvrci wound
ofd
...° would be promoted by adopting the present Resolu- inflicted 011 hit interest which years could not heal.
`"I,IS- He was sat rimed that, after a Committee ap- corn down to the stth of last month he held in his band; the
pointed in 1797 to consider this very subject of the middle prices of which were not such as to warrant interference.
He adverted to the evidence given beforeo the Committee by Mr.
sail stitution of sugar in the distilleries, had come to titihLat idinsthuis.
~resoe Intion most unfavourable to the proposition, opSwan
'lntim° officer of Distilleries would crease:stated!
les
Nquestion should be again revived. Since dlstille. ling; and that the recent alarm of scarcity no longer existed.—
la were first established, they had only been stopped Was this a ground for the measure ? The Member for Wexford
bushels of
, Years in the course of more than a century ; had
h.a altstated b.' hevidelsisbo e' thatHowthnre
theviner:o2uld 'an
that
and in. the year 1760, the table of the House was ile---ey in
for the Noble Lord's proposition, and hoywir:Ohuld. dine-
F') red with petitions from the fanning interest, re. EngliskGentlemen not tee that to discourage the Irish farmer was

to injure their best supply? Tie thought it was the duty of Teli-
nisters to propose some plan tor the effectual and permanent re
Ilia of the West India Merchants, without interfering in any
manner with the agriculture of the country ; and any loss that the
country might euffer, might be made up in some other way. By
the half measure proposed, great harm would be done, and no
party or intere,t whatever satisfied.
Sir A. WELI.F.SLEY was convinced, that were the distilleries
in Ireland to be allowed to go on, while those in tneland were
flopped, great mischief would ensue. The distress fur grain in
Ireland was as great as in any part of England. The last crop
was a third deficient, and the quantity of grin exported from Ire-
land to Scotland, in consequence of the scarcity in the latter coun-
try, rendered that crop still less adequate to the demand. Peti-
tions had been presented from Drogheda, Belfast, &c. praying
that the distilleries might be stopped; and there could he no
doubt that unless some efficient measure were speedily adopted, a
very general scarcity would te.ist in Ireland.
Colonel MONTGOMERY confirmed the statements of the
Honourable Baronet with respect to the deficiency of the last
year's crop. in Ireland.
Sir J. NEWPORT allowed 'let if the rest of Ireland were in
the state of the north of tl.at country, an efficient and an imme-
diate measure of relief might be advisable. But the measure
proposed was not to operate until July, by which time the new
potatoes would be coming in. The apprehension of scarcity in Ire-
land had been very much magnified by the Hon. Baronet, which
was sufficiently evinced by the price of oats in Waterford, the
greatest exporting port in Ireland, where the price had not varied
for the last two Months more than one shilling and sixpence a
barrel. This was proved in evidence before the Committee,
by Mr. Dela.ucey, who also declared that the quantity of grain
in the market of England teas little less than it was last
year. He deprecated all such interventions of the Legislature,
except in extreme cases. Nothing could be more noxious than
tampering with trade or food by Parliamentary regulations. If
the farmer were not left to obtain Isis awn profit by the rise of
grain, without the interference of the Legislature, he would no
longer till the ground. Under all these circumstances, he object-
ed most decisively to the measure. Adverting to the recommen-
dation of the Committee to suspend the intercourse of spirits be-
tween the two countries, he questioned the right of a Committee
to offer a recommendation, which went directly to an infringe-
ment of the Articles of Union.
Sir A. WELLESLEY ,:lained.
Mr. ELLISON, after having divested the subject of all the ex-
traneous matter that had been introduced in the course of the di*-

cussion, entered Into an examination of the real merits of the
question ; contending, at considerable length, that the appeeheu-
sions of the landed interest were ill founded, and that some mea-
sure of precaution was indispunsible.
Admiral HARVEY observed,as the mode of relief to the West
India Merchants recommended by the report, was of a descrip-
tion that he totally disapproved, he must vote against the Speaker s
leaving the Chair. If a strong case were made out of distress, he
should be most ready to accede to any plan by which grain would
not be affected.
Mr. FOSTER, as he telt compelled to vote on this question
against those with whom he usually concurred, explained the mo-
tive by which he was actuated. It was his conviction that no
tampering of the Legislature with agriculture ought to be allowed
except in an extreme case, which did not seem to exist.
Mr. WINDHAM argued to the same purpose, and.remarked
on the extraordinary change in the question which had taken
place within the last twer ty-four hours. The West India interest
had been completely left in the back ground, and a domestic s:ar-
city made the prominent tigure in the canvas of the evening.
Mr. H. SUMNER was of opinion, that our colonists suffered
more by the investment of Britsh Capital in foreign islands,
than by other means whatever.
Sir CHARLES BURRELL declared his sincere conviction of
the dangerous tendency of the measure which was then befure the
House.
Lord CASTLEREAGH argued at considerable length, to prove
that barley and oats wereat present nearly double the price which
they Nvere sold at in the years 1795 and 1800, in London, and in
some puns of Ireland they were treble the price that'they were in
these two years of remarkable scarcity.
Mr. JOHN SMITH did not think the measure went far enough.
Sir H. MILDM kY thought it necessary to controvert the as-
sertions of the Noble Lord (Castlereagh) M order to prevent the
effect of any unfounded alarm in the country, whish might be the
consequence of his calculations, if they were net disproved.
Mr. W. SMITH denied that the proposition was the produc-
tion of the Committee. The stopping of the distilleries now could
not be productive of any benefit to the We-t India Colonies.
Mr. M. LAING opposed the motion, and Lord BINNING
made a' hort reply.
On the question for the Speaker's leaving the Chair, the House
divided—Ayes, 122; Noes, 108. Majority, 14.
While Strangers were excluded, another division was threat-
ened, but did nut take place.
On our re-admission into the Oallery, the Assessed Taxes
Amendment Bill was read a second time.
The Committee respecting the Put clsc;e of Annuities was fixed
for Thursday ; as was also the Committee of the ;English Local
Militia Bill.
The other Orders of the Day were disposed of, and at half past
four o'clock the House adjourned.

moved by referri
uP°thm
L e v
hae
Wtish quest km' Sc odB•
'ved
reo
of the cour
:lune
stopped,
Els searcitY, aim
He believed he wot
k, an Honourable ]
was really surprize
jed to OPP•se the n
ow so high, that tl
icy inj t the and if
urY
k recommend
interests, he the
been at first it
It.— • forlotilirnes a yea]
eteoled to pursue
—4,/ when he cat
JP"^ ared to b
er s rrven to um
o,s
irtiropectable Gi
;jot public adva
'Tn another day.
which he postpone
view of accon
14Y
by letting thi
Ito had also
,ich was almost
0 of the Comm
ocourse of spir
am, during the c 4
ho , been str,
teary to the Ac
which he now ince
the distillation o:
malt, flour, meal,
United Kingd
loot October ;
fal for his Majest:
toe, by proclam
es after the mei
ended, if the Bill
Cgromittee, to it
rah, so as to en
in their distill
west in Irelam
• thee was ahead]
pots of it. Um
that without at
west Indies, the
Although he did
teput the questi4
Wit Merchants
their wants were
Feat estates whi
ar West India b
titled to some re
tithe West Indi
bated merely to
lions, but that a
bated to the syst