The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-25 00:00:00

House, whether his words were not more words of charity than
those which fell from the Hon. ;Gentleman's lips.? He
would ask the Hon. Gentleman, supposing that by means of
that collision which existed between the Members of the House,
he would say between the extreme voluntaries on his side, and
the extreme involuntaries on the other side—(Laughter)—this
Bill had been defeated, he should like to know what kind of a
Government they had reason to expect from the Government
that would spring from such a connexion—semi-bovemque
"whom semi-virumque bovem.—(Laughter.) The Secretary
for tbss Home Department, in: the speech which he made
on a late occasion, (lid more good in softening
and conciliating the people of Ireland, than any
speech which had been delivered lately.—(Cheers.) The
feelings of this country had been too subservient to Whig and
Tory.—( Cheers.) He would beg to state to the House that
there would never be an ultimate settlement of the Irish ques-
tion until the Irish Church was, not subverted, but put on a
different footing.—(Cheers. )
Lord BERNARD rose amid great confusion, expressive of a
great disinclination on the part of the House to hear. He was
understood to say that he would not trouble the House at so
late an hour of the evening but for the remarks made by the
Hon. Member who had just sat down. He referred to a state-
ment which he (Lord Bernard) made two years ago. He
wished to be allowed to refer to a speech of the Noble Lord the
Member for Sunderland; in which he asked what would he the
fate of the Irish Church, if it were to be determined by
a Parliament existing in Dublin.—( Here the noise became so
great that the Noble Lord, not being able to obtain a hearing,
sat down.)
Mr. ELLICE said that he rose to set himself right with the
House, with respect to a statement of his Right Hon. Friend
(the Secretary for the Home Department), in the course of his
speech last night. But before he did so, he wished to say in
a few words that he would give his cordial support to the pre-
sent motion. He should be at some loss to do so, if he thought
that it would in any way interfere with the success of the mea-
sure which the Right Hon. Gentleman had introduced to
the House ; but inasmuch as he should come to that
vote without injuring the progress of that motion, and as he
thought it essential upon this—probably the first step in
a new course of ecclesiastical policy with the people of
Ireland—to make a protest against making any tax on the people
of England to support any ecclesiastical establishment in Ire-
land, he thought it right, for that reason, to vote for the motion
of his Hon. Friend (Mr. Ward). He need not fatigue the
House by going over the grounds upon which he supported
this motion. These arguments had been so admirably concen-
trated in the speech of the Right Hon. Member for Edinburgh,
and that speech followed by the declamation of his Noble Friend
the Member for the City of London, as well as by the appeal
of the-Noble Lord the Member for Sunderland, that the whole
subject had been completely exhansted. Respecting the Irish
Church, against which so po;erful a statement had been
made, no answer had ever been attempted in any quarter of the
House. The Government had stated it was impossible to cope
with the opposition of the subject, but they gave no good
reason to the House or the country that they had the least
security in being able to stand where they were.—(Cheers.)
The first step in progressing had been taken, and they must
go onwards let who might occupy the reins of Government.—
(Hear, hear.) He had always during the time he had a seat
in that House, taken a very active part, and a very anxious
interest in the eubject. He was sure that twenty years ago,
since he had seconded a proposal of the Hon. Member for
Middlesex for going into Committee on the Irish Church ;
and he had at that time made the same state-
ments which the Honourable Member for Sheffield
had brought forward. Upon every subsequent debate on this
subject he had pursued the same course, and when ho became
a member of the Government, when his Right Hon. Friend
(Sir J. Graham) left the Cabinet, he had avowed the same
opinions, as distinct as language could avow them. He could
not understand in what part of his speech to the House when
the Government of Lord Grey came into power, he had given
utterance to principles different to those on which the present
motion was founded. It might have been that he then stated
that there was no intention on the part of the Government to
take from the Irish Church the means of forming a Roman
Catholic Establishment in Ireland. They had not arrived at
sufficient information to judge to what purpose or to what
extent they would make an appropriation for the Protestant
revenue of the Church. But when his Right Hon. Friend left
office, a Commission had been issued to overturn the municipal
proportions of the different sects in Ireland, so as to enable the
Government to advise the Crown with respect to practical
measures on this 'subject. He forgot the precise statement
then made by his Noble Friend at the head of the Government
(Lord Grey), but he believed that although that Noble Lord
had refused to admit the intentions of the Government to
apply any surplus belonging to the Protestant Church to any
particular object, he maintained the power of the Government
to apply the sum to any such purpose which the Govern-
ment should deem expedient.—( Hear, hear.) With respect
to his own language, he recollected well the debate arising on
the question respecting the settlement of the tithes in Ireland,
brought forward by the present Lord Hatherton, the then
Secretary far Ireland. In the course which he took on that
occasion he lamented the loss which the Government had
sustained by the retirement of his Right Honourable
Friend (sir James Graham) and his Noble Friend the present
Secretary for the Colonies. He thought then, as now, that
their retirement, under the circumstances of the case, and on
the principles on which they placed it, were detrimental to the
course of good government and the progress of liberal opinions
with regard to Ireland. The Government then had a large
party in the House. The Irish people were then disposed to
accept conciliatory measures, and if the Government had gone
on in unison as they were in the course of policy in which they
had embarked, a state of affairs would now exist in Ireland
very different from that which they had the misfortune to
witness. In stating his regret at the retirement of his Right
Hon. Ftiend and of Lord Stanley for office, he used these
terms 1—" For what had the sacrifices—(he alluded to the loss
of his two Right Hon. Friend.)—been made, but that the
Government might be enabled to act on that principle which
they avowed with respect to the measure More the
House" (it was the Irish tithe question); and upon
some ironical cheers coming from the Opposition
side of the House, "he scarcely knew how to interpret that
cheer; but if it meant that the Government were not united,
and determined to act consistenily with their declarations ; if
there was the least diffleulty in the principle o! the application
of the surplus revenue of the church of Ireland to the purposes
which had been stated by the Hon. Member for St. Albans,
he should have been the last man to join the Cabinet." That
was snffie.ent to show that he had never swerved. To the
measure founded on a system of liberality to the people of
Ireland he would give his support, and hoped that system would
be carried steadily forward. To the first step in that progress,
he repeated, he gave his willing and cordial support, protest-
ing with his Hon. Friend against the principle of taking money
for such purposes from other sources than the surplus revenue
of the Irish church, and against the principle of abstracting it
from the taxe, paid by the people of Great Britain.—( Cheers. )
Mr. E. B. ROCHE said the measure proposed by the Right
Hon. Baropet regarding Mayoooth was a good measure as far
as it went; introduced, lie believed, in a good, and honourable,
arid kindly spirit—(Cheers)—and for that reason he regretted
that the question of the Protestant Church in Ireland should
have been brought forward on that occasion.—(Cries of
" Hear, hear," from the Ministerial benches.) He regretted
it the more, because urged by old and long-entertained prin-
ciples, he must vote for the motion of the Hon. Gentleman
the Member for Sheffield. He thought the question of the
Irish Church was not so important a question now es it was a
few years ago. It was not regarded by the Irish people
with so much anxiety, because, in the first place, the
question was overlaid in the Irish Mind by the
more absorbing, and what he believed to be the more important
questioh ; and, in the second place, the people of Ireland had
seen this question of Church reform what they considered trifled
with by parties on that, the Opposition side of the Ilouse,
.be-
fore—( Hear, hear)—and, therefore, they (lid not believe that
they were sincere in proposing Church reform. He only stated
the general feeling among the Irish people. He would be
wrong in saying the Hon. Member fur Sheffield was not sin-
cere. There was no doubt about that. But, at the same time,
the Irish people take up this question with great spirit, and lay
it down very quietly—( Hear, from the Ministerial benches)
—and, therefore, hi their minds, it was not so important a
question as it had been. He regretted that the question had
been introduced oh the present occasion, because he thought it
better that the question should be disposed of by itself. He
did not know whether the Right Honourable Gentleman the
Member for the University of. Dublin, and the Noble Lord
(Lord Bernard), were quite satisfied with the aspect which
this question of their Church had taken in that House. He
(Mr. Roche) regarded it as an abuse. He deplored the. ex-
istence of that abuse in his country. It was the Church that had
been a bone of contention between them ; but he regarded it
with most regret as it was the thing of all others which pre-
vented the party which that Noble Lord represented, and
which he (Mr. Roche) represented, from uniting for the com-
mon good of their common country.—(Cheers.) He pm it
to the Noble Lord, and the Right Hon. Gentleman, if they
thought that by remaining in that House, and by keeping
the question in that House, they would keep the
Church safe as it existed at present. He asked
them to look at the state of parties in England, and consider
whether they were likely to get for that Church very flatter-
ing terms if Hon. Gentlemen on this side of the House should
come into power. Let them well consider this—whether Irish-
men in Ireland could not settle that important question more
equitably for both parties —more permanently, and more
honourably than by coming over to this country, which
the Hon. Member for the University of Dublin
admitted in his speech to be a " foreign country."
The Hon. Member for the University, in his argument in
support of the Church in Ireland, said-"'Take from us the
Church and ycu have the support of the party whie.. I repre-
sent ;" which party, said another Hon. Gentleman, was a fo-
reign garrison, existing in a foreign and hostile country. He
confessed he listened with some humiliation when he heard his
fellow-countryman obliged to make such a confession,
Mr. HAMILTON—I said a hostile, not a foreign country.
Mr. ROCHE—The Hon. Gentleman said he did not say
foreign; and, therefore, he retracted that expression, but still
it was a British garrison existing in a hostile country. Now,
he said this hostility was all on one side, for the people of Ire-
land did not regard the English party there with hostile feel-
ings. They only regarded their prejudices with hostility, and
perhaps with contempt ; but they did not regard their fellow-
countrymen in any hostile spirit, and many of them, forming
a large party in Ireland, hoped that a blessed day would come,
when they would all be united for the common good of their
common country. But be would turn from that question.
The Right Hon. Baronet, as he had previously admitted, had
brought the question forward in a good and fair spirit ; but let
him remind the Right Hon. Baronet, that all the support he
had received from the Opposition side of the House, did not
originate from a sacrifice of party to principle. Honest
men supported that motion because it was just ; men who were
not honest supported it because it was expedient. He heard
in this country, among the lower grade of the Whig party,
murmurs and reports of a coalition. He found them in-
dulging in the pleasing dreams of one day seeing the Noble
Lord the Member for the City of London, and the Right Hon.
Baronet, the First Lord of the Treasury hob-nobhing at a
Cabinet dinner. What a scene it would be for that talented
gentleman, who styled himself the historical painter of the
House of Commons. He would have the old story of
Antony and Octsvius dividing the empire amongst their
fellows. But did they suppose Ireland would acquiese to
this course? Did they think Ireland would be contented with
this paltry bribe to sacrifice the cause in which she had em-
barked? Now he told the Right Honourable Baronet
in a candid spirit, that such would not be the case.
They would not be able to quiet Ireland by this single mea-
sure—no, they must give ample and full justice. Ireland was
embarked in a cause which she thought was just and good, and
they believed they were entitled to a domestic Legislature.
He knew perfectly well that he was vainly attempting to advo-
cate a cause while bad no friends in that House ; he trusted
that Hon. Members would permit him to tell them, that their
attempting to treat with an individual would not satisfy Ire-
land. They must recollect that lately a body of men had
sprung up in Ireland, who commanded the confi-
dence of the people of Ireland, and. who would
not be satisfied with this measure. How were
thesemen called into existence? Why their existence was de-
rived from a certain declaration which a Lord-Lieutenant made
with regard to repeal in Ireland. That person proscribed any
one entertaining repeal opinions, and declared that they were
to be excluded from office. To say the least of it, he thought
this was an unworthy declaration. It was as much es to say,
" I believe you are to be bought, and if you are to 'be
bought, here is my pricer" But these men had the sym-
pathies of the people with thorn, and he said again
they must have something more than this measure before
they would be satisfied. lie was not going at that late hour to
enter at any length into this question, but if Government had
any wish that it should be settled peacefully and amicably, they