The Sun.
London, England, 1842-03-05 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDAY EVENING. MARCH 5,184 k.

other point he wished to refer to was a subject not generally
known in that House. In ;835 a report got about that all the
masts of the British navy were rotten.—( Laughter.) He
found that after twenty years a survey was made in 1836, and
the report Was that those masts *ere Unserviceable, and were
very properly taken out of the ships, and put into a different
department. Now this proved very bad management. Ile
came then to the construction of the ships in the service. If
they happened to have a good surveyor, they generally built
good ships ; but if they had a bad surveyor, which had often
happened, they built very indifferent ships. The building cf
those ships was given to one man, whether he was clever or not.
The present surveyor constructed excellent ships, but Sir Wm.
Symmonds pat in most ridiculous sterns. Mr. Greg, of
Pertsmouth Dock-yard, and Mr. Ray, all ridiculed this stern ;
and it was impossible for them to bear eight, ten, or twelve
guns on the quarter. Every ship that had been built under
Str William Symmonds, had this ridiculous stern, and it was
necessary to unship these before before they could fire a single
gun. They were supported by an iron board, or else they
would fall into the water. If they measured the Queen on
the lower deck, they would find that she was thirty-six feet
longer on the poop than down below. He believed that those
sterns had been condsnened.as improper ; and he thought great
credit was due to the Admiralty fur their conduct in reference
to them. He was extremely obliged to the House fur the at-
tention with which they had listened to his remarks.
Captain RODS said be believed that there had always been
but one desire in that House !in reference to the Royal Navy,
namely, to render it as efficient as possible; but their endea-
vours had been frustrated by the Lords of the Admiralty, n-ho,
instead of being, as they ought to have been, its protectors,
had ben its greatest enemies. He had grievous faults to find
with the Admiralty ; and his authority for venturing to express
his opinion was, that having:commanded in her Majesty's
service for ten years, he was in possession of facts from
which he drew the inference that no service had
been more neglected than the Royal Navy since 1815. Now,
be would begin with the state of her Majesty's ships. From
1815 to 1825 and 1826, the Admiralty kept on building old ten
gun brigs, like those formerly used, most ridiculous corvettes,
which would hardly stand up under canvas, donkey frigates,
which were designated " Forty thieves."—( Hear, hear.) The
Duke of Portland, and other leading personages, at length forced
the Admiralty to build a better class of vessels. Sir William
Symmond's model was peculiarly adapted for brigs and cot vet tes ;
but when that model was first introduced, it was thought to be
so perfect, that it would answer for all vessels from the brig to
the 120 gun ship. He had always thought that as they in-
creased the size of the vessel and the tier of the guns, they
must proportionally increase the flatness of the floors. The
model answered very well for brigs and corvettes, but not for
larger vessels. When Sir W. Symmonds built his vessels, he
gave them lofty bows, which made them good sailers
when not heavily laden. He (Captain Rous) found
it necessary on one occasion to bring down his ship two
feet lower in the stern, and by doing so, he rendered
the vessel somewhat easy; arid for doing that he was found
fault with by the Admiralty. But the thing most to be la-
mented, was the failure of the steamers. The Gorgon steamer
was built to carry 1,200 troops in case of war, and if, with that
number on board, and the number of guns allotted to her, she
fell in with a heavy gale, there was great probability of her
being lost. The ships were made without any pains being
taken whether they would succeed or not; and he believed
that it arose in some measure from the fact that many officers
of the Navy, whatever ships they were apppointed to, would
always fancy their ships were the best in the world.—
(A laugh.) They would cry up their virtues, and
take care to conceal their defeats. He remembered
that after Sir William Symmond's improvements had been
introduced, three ships, the Inconstant, the Castor, and the
Pique were to be tried,
.and the last was to be taken as a
model. But what happened? Six new sister Piques were
built before the trial was made, but there were no more In-
constants or Castors. The race was thus decided before the
horses were saddled.—( A laugh.) The present system of
promotion in the Navy was decidedly objectionable. There
were at present 500 or 600 Mates in the. service, in whom
" hope deferred had made the heart sick.' —( Hear, hear.)
There were a number of Lieutenants waiting for promotion
until they had become almost superannuated. Old officers
again were always preferred for the command of vessels ; so
that a man who had been perhaps twenty years on shore,
arid who could not probably pass a midshipman's examina-
tion, was appointed to the command of an 80 gun ship
and 800 men.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") That was
what they called common sense.—( Hear, hear, hear.)
They had expected to have been much benefited by the Na-
val and Military Commission which had sat in 1839, and the
condition of Lieutenants and Mates had been somewhat bene-
fitted. Before that Commission the half-pay of a Lieutenant
had been bs. 6d. a day, and his full pay 6s. 6d. ; the half-pay
of a Mate had been 55., and his full pay 6s. Now the outfit of
a Lieutenant cost at least 100/., and for that they gave him
the magnificent remuneration of 6s. 6d. a day. But what
had the Commission done for the higher rank of officers? In
the year 1832, the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary cf State
for the Home Department had taken away part of their prize-
money from Captains, without awarding to them any increase
of pay. Now, all that the Commission had done for there
was to allow them, when fitting out their ships, to take their
plate and table-linen from the Dock-yards, paying 10 per cent.
per annum for the use of it—a favour which, he apprehended,
any friend would do them. With regard to the Admirals, all
they had done was to turn between 60 or 70 yellow Admirals
to the active list. Now, with regard to the employing
of old officers, he would point to the Mediterranean fleet, and he
would ask if that fleet was in a proper state of discipline? He
was told that it was not. He would ask, was the fleet regu-
larly manned, was it fit for active service ? What could be
the state of discipline when the midshipmen on board a line-
of-battle ship, who had been prevented from going on shore
because on former occasions they had misconducted them-
selves by exceeding their leave, had rowed about the fleet with
a flag representing a negro in chains, to show the cruelty and
tyranny with which they had been treated ?—( Hear, hear.)
While he was on the subject, he would just allude to a case
which had been most improperly made a subject of mystery.
He disliked mystery ; it looked as if there was something to he
hid.—(Cheers.) He alluded to the case of Mr. Elton. He
had been informed that Sir. Elton had been turned out of the
ship commanded by the Gallant Member for Gloucester, when
Mr. Williams was First Lieutenant ; and when he afterwards
met Mr. Williams at the social board, and made the request to
him to take a friend on slier@ in his boat, it would appear that,
from the length of time which had elapsed since they had been
shipmates, that Mr. Elton had no right to make such a request,
as they were placed on a very different footing towards each
other from that which they had previously been. Mr, Elton had
been advised by his senior officers to make an apoolgy, buthe had
refused to do so. He had afterwards offered to make an apol gy
but it was considered too late. He (Capt. R.) would not take
upon himself to say when:an apology was offered it should be re.
jetted. but it was considered in that case that the apology came
too late, and it was decided that Mr Elton should be tried by a
Court-martial, the consequence of which every one knew must
be, that ho must be dismissed the service. The Mates and
others were going to give him a jubilee, but in order to pre-
vent that scandal—and he hoped, if possible, he might be con-
tradicted as to the fact if it were possible—the officers on the
Court-martial ordered him six months' imprisonment; and he
was sent on board of a ship to receive his punishment, not in
close arrest, as should have been the case, but in open arrest, and
the consequence was, he grossly misconducted himself on board.
lie went on the quarter-deck, where he should not have gone,
and told the officer in command that he was a liar, and used
other disrespectful terms. But when he came home the Board
of .Admiralty, considering him an unfortunate culprit who had
already suffered enough, discharged him from the custody to
which he was subjected by the sentence of the Court-martial.
But if it had been a person without education, who dared to
make use of such language, or send a challenge to Isis superior
officer, he would now be on his way to a penal settlement, or
be hanged at the yard-arm. If he (Captain Rous) were on a
Court-martial, and if a doubt existed with regard to the
amount of punishment to be awarded, he would throw
the doubt into the scale of the greater punishment rather
than allow the discipline of her Majesty's Navy
to be broken. The Mates and the Midshipmen were all go-
verned by the system of rewards and punishments- It was a
fact, that many officers were anxious to prevent Sir J. Pechel's
plan being carried into effect. In the year 1812, before the
American war, it was stated by all the naval sages then in the
House, that it was impossible for an 18-gun frigate to contend
with one of 20 guns ; but at that very moment the fact was
being disproved. When he was in one of her Majesty's
vessels, in 1811, they chased the French frigate Chloine, into
Brest, and fired five to every four shots fired by the enemy. All
that he wanted was, to impress on the House the necessity of
employing efficient men. He was trading on sacred ground. as
he was about to refer to a Gallant Officer, but he had des- -
cribed the state of the Mediterranean fleet, and how necessary
it was to have men of energy and activity for that service ; and
he was obliged to say that the Gallant Officer about to take
that command, will have been sixty-seven years in her Ma-
jesty's service next August. He could not help, feeling that it
was cruel to drag men full of years and honours, from their re-
tirement, and appoint them to such a command. And what
excuse could the Admiralty make for it? Why, this—they
would tell them that it 'was Necessary to have an officer of a
certain rank to take the command in the Mediterranean, in
the event of being obliged to co-operate with a foreign force.
The excuse was ridiculous and childish, for her Majesty in
Council could at any time order an officer to hoist a flag of
any rank her Majesty pleased. But he believed that the Ad-
miralty thought the virtue lay its the flag, and not in the zeal
and energy of the man whose rank it denoted. Did they fancy
that that flag, when it fluttered in the breeze, would -restore
the circulation to the aged veins of the Commander? And
when, in a dead calm, it hung clinging to the mast, must it
not be considered an emblem of strength decayed, as when it
shook in the gale it might be taken as an emblem that the
chieftain was about to depart ? If he had been the adviser of
the First Lord of the Admiralty, he would not have placed a
fine building on a ruined arch, even though that arch was
twined with ivy and covered with laurel. lie had drawn up a
plan for the improvement of the Navy, which had appeared in
the newspapers, and therefore he should not trouble the House
with it, as any one might make himself acquainted with its
cen,ents. His object was, that commissions should not be
granted by the Admiralty to the influence of a great man, but
that something of an equivalent should be paid for it, that
of obtaining an efficient officer, without adding to an already
(wet burdened list.—( Hear, hear.) In the promotions
of Lieutenants, the promotion should be given to those who had
served the greatest number of years afloat; and as these were
selected by their Captains, who were the best judges, they would
be better selected than they could be by the Admiraltp. They
put the young men on the shelf, and drew out the old me—
They eemed to forget that they could afford to do what we
right, but they could not afford to do what was wrong. As for
expenditure, they knew that the clergy received ono-fourth of
the rental of this country.—(Opposition cheers and laughter,
and cries of " One-fifth.") Well, one-fifth would suit his ar-
gument as well. They had Crown officers, law officers, &c.,
munificently paid; but they could not afford to pay the naval
officer. But would the prayer of the priest, and the pleadings
of the lawyer, stop the bullet? No. They must depend -for
their defence on the strong arm and daring valour of the
soldier and the seaman—they must depend upon those
men who conquered kingdoms in every part of the world,
and brought this little island to the highest pitch of glory. His
object was to bring other officers forward, in order that they
might follow in the steps of their predecessors in glory. It
was his duty to. bring forward this subject. Shafts of calumny
might fly about his head, but they would pass unheeded, and
the good things might be remembered. He would finish in the
words of the old song :
" Then oh, protect the British tar,
Be mindful of his merit ;
And when again you're plunged in war,

sent Board of Admiralty in their wise and judicious plan of
fully maning the British men-of-war..—( Hear, hear.) Go to
what part of the world the British navy now might go, they
would have no disgrace to fear as they were at present manned.
—( Hear, hear.) It was the opinion of various officers and
civilians that it would be better to have mete ships and fewer
men—that it would be better to have five vessels undermanned
than to have four vessels on full euniplement. Now he ( Sir C. N.)
was of a different opinion. Experience had proved that when
an emergency arose, it was impossible to find men to put yes.
seas in full efficiency with the promptitude that might he re-
quired. That had been shown in the course of the operations
on the coast of Syria, where the ships were improperly manned,
and where all the efforts of the Government could not enable
them to complete the ships then in service in the Meditere
ranean. If they had been attacked at that time, unmanned as
they were, it would be exceedingly difficult to say what the con-
sequences might have been. But when the fleet was afterwards
further impaired by deaths and disease, he really thought that
if they had fallen in with the enemy they would have run great
risk of being beaten.—( Hear. ) He thought that in such times
as these no British ship should be sent to sea improperly manned.
He believed that the French Government intended to keep up
twenty sail of the line : eight at sea, four its road, and eight in
harbour. It seemed that the British Government had deter-
s:mined on reducing six sail of the line. He doubted whether
the present were a moment for effecting such a reduction. But
that was a question for the Government, undertaken by them
on their own responsibility, and with whirls the Admiralty had
nothing to do. With regard to the Board of Admiralty, when
that part of the service came before the House, he should state
his opinion with regard t.o it. He should say he was not at all
favourable to the present state of the service. He believed it
was well known that all our superior officers were new of such
an age as to be nearly superannuated. Our Admirals in parti-
cular were arrived at such an age that, with the excep-
tion of one or two of them, it would be impossible to expect
' that they could discharge their duty as efficiently as they would
in earlier life have dune ; and as for the greater part of them,
it would be absolutely necessary to send out nurses with them
to take care of them.—(Loud laughter.) We had at present
but few officers under 70 years of age to command our fleets.
Although he had the highest opinion of the gallant officer who
was going out to take the command in the Mediterraitean, yet
still he could not but remember that the gallant officer was
seventy-two years of age ; and although he no doubt was per-
fectly able to perform the duties of Admiral in the Mediterra-
nean in time of peace, yet he (Sir C. Napier) would contend
that it was physically impossible for any man, seventy-two years
of age, to do the tlnty of Admiral in time of war. If he
looked at the list of Rear-Admirals, he found that but little
better; and if they went upon the present system, it would be
almost impossible to have an Admiral under sixty years of age.
Now, he would ask, was that right ? He would next allude to
the; injustice which had been done the Navy at. the last pro-
motion ; but in what he was about to say, he begged to be
understood not as desiring to bring the Army clown to the level
of the Navy, but:to raise the Navy up to ;the Army. Before
that pmmotion there were 171 flag officers, and 346 General
Officers; there were 693 Post Captains, 779 Commanders, and.
809 Colonels and 735 Majors. At the promotion seventy-four
Colonels had been made General Officers, making a total of
420 General Officers, while there were only 40 Post Captains
made Admirals. Now he considered that was great injustice
to the Navy, and this was still more apparent when they came
to consider 51 Commanders only had been made Captains, while
77 majors had been made Lieut.-Colonels. He had understood
that the reason given for this injustice was, that an Admiral
cost the country more than a General ; but he could show that
that idea was a fallacy. The additional expense of a General
officer over a Colonel was 1991. 155., while that of a Rear-
Admiral over a Post-Captain was that of 1911. 12s. 6d. Before
the last promotion, the expense of the Admirals had been
95,0001. a year ; after that it had been 105,0001., being an ad-
dition of 10,0001. The 'expense of the Generals had been
85.000/. a year before, and 93,0001. a year after the promotion ;
but it was only a small part of the expense of the General
Officers. The General Officers had most of the regiments.
There were 130 regiments, and, valuing then at 1,000/ a year
each, there was 1 30,0001. a year to be divided among
the Generals. Promotion was also much more rapid in
the Army. Many of those who were now Generals had
entered: the Army as late as 1814, while all who were
Post; Captains in 1808 were. Post: Captains still. It
was clearly shown that Lord Rodney, whom no person could
deny to be an excellent and gallant officer, did not perform
his duties so well as if he had been a younger man. When he
fought his great action he was 70 years of age, and was labour-
ing under a fit of gout, and it was evident to all that he could
not perform his duty so well as if ho had been only 40 years of
age. The next instance he would take was the action of the
let June, fought by Lord Howe, when he was 63 years of age,
and it was well known that for three years previous to the ac-
tion he was subject to mental and bodily afflictions, and al-
lowed six or seven of the enemy's fleet t.o escape under their
spritsails. The next example was that of Sir Thomas Holder.
He would next take Lord Nelson as an example, whose ac-
knowledged ability and naval talents everybody must allow,
but whose gallant actions were, in his (Sir C. Napier's)
opinion, to be attributed much more to his youth than to
any particular ability he displayed ; and he was sure that if
the other Admiralsewhom he mentioned, were as young, and
strong, and healthy as Lord Nelson, they would have been able
togive as gOod an account of the enemy as he had. Lord Nelson
was made an Admiral at the ago of 35. He fought the battle
of the Nile at the age of 36 ; that of Copenhagen at 42, and was
killed at 47. He once asked a Gallant Officer, whose authority no-
body in that House would deny—he meant Sir Thomas Hardy—
whether if Lord Nelson had been sixty years of age when he
fought the battle of the Nile, or sixty-six when he gained that
of Trafalgar, he would have fought the battle of the Nile on
the night he had, or have gained the other as ho did ,• and he
(Sir Thomas Hardy) replied that he would not. He would
next take the example of Sir J. Shumarez, but before he did
so, he would make an allusion to Admiral Duncan, who, at the
age of sixty-eight years, attacked the enemy's fleet, which was
more numerous than his o :en, upon a lee shore, at a dis-
tance of only eight miles from land, and had obtained a glorioui
victory. But it should be recollected that that was an exti a-
ordinary case, and he (Sir C. Napier) was only speaking of the
general run of men. Now, with regard to Admiral Sauinarez,
he took a small squadron at the age of forty •two to Gibraltar,
attacked the French fleet, was defeated, and lost his ship
things which rarely occur to a British Admiral.—( Hear,
hear.) He got his fleet into port, and with five sail of the
line he managed to defeat the Spanish fleet. Two of their
vessels were blown up, and the rest were obliged to surrender.
Now he (Sir C. Napier) attributed the success of that exploit
to the youth of the officer in command ; a man of seventy years
of age could not possibly have accomplished such a victory.
A remedy was absolutely and indispensibly necessary for the
present evils which existed in the Navy. The cure which he,
(Sir C. Napier) would suggest was—he would not say a ra-
dical cure—( Laughter)—for he was sure the pre-
sent Government did not like anything of that
soete—( Great laughter)—but he would undertake to say it
would be an effectual remedy—( Hear, hear)—it would only
cost the Government 100,0001. His proposal was that when
Captains in the Navy came within 100 of the top of the list,
and were 60 years of age, they should Ire allowed to retire
upon pen ions of 100/. a year. He only asked the House to
give 10,0001. a year, and they would provide for old
officers, and render the service more efficient.—( Hear, hear. )
That would he making sure provision for those officers who
had been worn out in the public service, and had been the
very flowers of the service during the wars. His object was
to make some provision for those who happened not to
be the second babies of the aristocracy—( Laughter )—and con-
sequently were not promoted or made Commanders, as they
had no friends or family to push them forward.—( Hear, hear. )
He would propose that old officers should be put upon the re-
tired list, and promoted to the rank of post-captains
—.it would give them the rank, and yet it would be only
an addition of 6d. per day to their pay. Now he asked the
Chancellor of the Exchequer to give them even that 6d. a day,
it would not be much, but it would be accepted as a boon. If
the Government would once make some such arrangement it
would have one good effect at all events, namely, the service
would never again be worn out as it is now. hen he would
suggest that the proportion should go half by seniority, and the
other half by choice—( Hear, hear)—or if the Government did
not think that half was not sufficient for their patronage, as he
knew they were greedy about it—( Hear, hear)—he would
give them two to be promoted by choice, and one by seniority.
The slow promotion of the Mates especially operated to disgust
them, and had a very disheartening effect on the young men
who were entering the service. Formerly it was very rare to
find men quit the service after having joined it, but it was now
a common thing, and in those who did remain it caused the
same sort of feeling. Formerly they had some prospect of
promotion after six, eight, or ten years' service;
if the Mates were promoted after six years' service he thought
they should not complain ; but having served that time, they
thought it hard to get no promotion. He next came to the
petty officers, and if justice were done them, it would also
cost the Exchequer a little money. If they looked at the
manner in which the Navy was manned, and the difficulty
there was at all times in getting men, when he had known
an eighty gun ship lie at Portsmouth for more ,than six
months, without getting her complement, it was evident that
it was absolutely necessary something should be done to en-
courage seamen to enter the Navy. Every officer in the
House knew that the working oetty officers were the most
useful class of men possible, but the difference of pay be-
tween the able seaman and the petty officer was not suf-
ficient to make the former aspire to the station of petty
officer. Of those officers there were two classes—
the the second class having but2s. or 3s.a month more than t
able-bodied seamen. When the Duke of Clarence was Lord
High Admiral, he put a patch on their arms, and made officers si
patch
on them ; he did a great deal of good, but if he had put a a.
on their pay—(Laughter)—he would have done a great deal
more. He should propose that the pay of time petty officers
be 31. a month, and he would do away with the thirteen
months in the year instead of twelve. Seamen were paid
for thirteen months in the year, but many of them could not
understand it; he had himself heard a sailor in Cork say he
understood there were only eight pay months in the year, and
on being told there 'were thirteen, said he did not know, he
had always been told there were twelve. He would change
this system altogether, and give the sailor 21. a month.
He approved generally of the Bill of the Right Ho-
nourable Baronet for manning the Navy, which was the
only attempt that had been made to regulate the supply of men
to the naval force, for the last thirty years. But it ought to
go further, because, in the event of a war, it called on British
seamen to serve their country, and gave them only four or five
days to decide whether they would serve as volunteers or be
impressed. They ought to make the seamen understand that
the service of this country was a good service. He felt that it
would be extremely difficult to pass a Bill of that sort in the
present feeling of the country, but a beginning might be made.
Now there was an Act passed in the reign of Queen Anne re-
quiring merchantmen to receive parish boys on (board their
ships, and after they had served four years on board
those vessels, they should go into the Navy. That
Bill he might say was at present a dead letter, but when the
Poor-law Bill came to be discussed, he thought the House
would have au opportunity of making good use of that Bill.
There was another arrangement he highly approved of, which
the present Government had adopted, and that was reserving
to seamen their pensions, or rather allowing them tolave their
pensions, allowing them to be employed in the service still re-
taining their ;pensions. It had always been liberal, but he
thought it would have been better to give them more pay. He
would now come to officers' pensions. The:officer when he
went to sea lost his pension ; now, that appeared to him to be
extraordinary, because when he went to sea, he was obliged
to fit out his ship, and if he got appointed to a small one he
then lost half his pay. There was another point
with respect to pensions, to which he was anxious to call
the attention of the House. By the Queen's regulation when
an officer received wounds, amounting to the loss of a limb,
her Majesty was authorised to grant him a year's pay, and she
reserved to herself the granting of an annual pension if he had
received wounds of a certain description. But what had the
Admiralty done about 150 years ago ? they made a regulation
that no officer should receive an annual pension unless wounded
equal to the loss of a limb. He had never heard that the regu-
lation had been altered. One observation lie would make with
respect to a statement of the Right Honourable the Secretary
to the Admiralty. He said that in reducing the ships
to six sail of the line, the fully manned ships would
require the same number of men. He should have thought that
if tour sail of the line took as much material as five sail of the line
there ought to be some reduction in the materiel. With respect
to ships being placed in slips ; he believed it to be the very best
thing the Admiralty had done. He thought if the Admiralty
built more slips it would be a benefit to teyheeayereosa,urnsptetrhayee.ey,Bcouut was
t
extraordinaryTheythhaatd
afotrwtehnitryt_ys-ifixv
mostfind that out. and they
never found nut before that it was necessary to keep ships on
the slips. He believed there had been one tried at Deptford
fourteens years ago, and there it was now.—(Laughter.) AR-

He'll show his daring spirit."
Sir G. COCKBURN was happyito find young officers coming
forward in that House in the manner in which the Hon. and
Gallant Member who had just sat down did.—( Hear, hear.)
The first thing he (Sir G. Cockburn) wished to call
the attention of the House to, was the case of Mr. Elton.
Mr. Elton, as the Gallant Officer had statod, wrote a letter to
an officer whom he considered his friend, making a request to
which no answer was returned. He then wrote an insubordi-
nate letter to that officer. For this he was tried by a Court-
martial and dismissed the service, in addition to which he was
sentenced to six months imprisonment in the Marshalsea. He
had no hesitation in saying that when the intelligence of that
sentence arrived at the Admiralty, there was not au officer
there who did not consider that a severe sentence, though they
took it for granted, considering vehohad passed the sentence, that
there were good reasons for it. They then determined in their
own minds not to send him to prison. When they heard,
however, of his improper conduct on board of the Hastings,
they determined not to interfere on his ueitnif, sod
accordingly lie was sent to the Alarstralsea. The Cap.
tain whom Mr. Elton had offended by his misconduct

reverting to what occupied the attention of the Committee,
refer to one subject—the good service pensions—and on this
subject he would say that he hoped the House would continue
pensions to persons when en full pay. He hoped he might be
permitted to congratulate his Hon. Friend on the plain and
distinct manner in which he had laid the matter before the
House ; and, having had some experience himself in the office
which his Hon. Friend so worthily filled, he knew that it was
only by the strictest attention that the estimates could be
brought forward in so clear and lucid a manner. His Hon. Friend
had assumed that a reduction of six sail of the line in the ser-
vice would take place, as he observed that the Navy at present
contained 1,500 men more than had been voted for; and he
hoped that the money thus saved would enable the Admiralty
to reward honourable services. He (Mr. C. Wood) hoped that
those complaints wnieh had been so freely made when he re-
presented the Admiralty would not be made now. He trusted
that we need not expect the French to land in London, and that
his Hon. Friend opposite would believe that he might sleep
content and in peace, without having his orchards robbed by a
Russian fleet.—(Hear, hear.) Those complaints had been
made, certainly most unjustifiably, in his time—(Hear)—but he
hoped they would not be made now. He had no fault to find
with the estimates which had been laid on the table ; indeed,
it would be strange if he had, for they were as near as
possible the estimates of last year—another proof
that the successors of the late Government thought
they could not do much better than follow their ex-
ample.—( Hear, hear.) There were, however, some few points
of small importance where they differed—where the present
Government had done that, in direct opposition to their prede-
cessors, which, if they had considered better, they would not
have done. He did not object to their giving full complements
to the Navy, considering how the country was at present
situated with regard to fsreign countries. Indeed, he thought
that, during the last two years, it would have been better if
larger complements had been allowed.—( Hear, hear,) But he
thought that the Admiralty had gone to work rather rashly,
that what they had done was founded upon no sound principle.
In the Princess Charlotte, for example, when the former com-
plement was 850 men, they made it 950; thus adding 100
men more than was considered necessary, by six of the ablest
officers in the Navy. But three-deckers, which had formerly
been considered first-rates, wire to be considered first-
rates no longer, but were to be reduced to second-
rates. If so complete a change as that had to be made, he
(Mr. C. Wood) would not say another word en the subject.
He should be glad to hear if all that had been done was to de-
termine that at the present time ships should go to sea with
the full war complement; then nothing more would have to
be said; but if the Admiralty said that under all the -circum-
stances, and at all times, ships never should leave this country
but with what had been considered a full war complement, he
should be glad to hear what were the reasons which had in-
duced the Admiralty to alter that which had hitherto been the
uniform practice. He should be glad to know what the rea-
sons were which had induced them now to reverse that which
had been the decision of the Boards of Admiralty during peace
for the present and the last century. There was another sub-
ject which had been alluded to, where the Admiralty had re-
versed the decision of their proceedings—it was the allowing
of sailors to receive their pensions with their pay. That was a
subject where the late Board of Admiralty followed the course
which had been previously adopted ; and he remembered a case
in which two sailors, who were attacked with the gout, on
board of the Formidable, at Spitbead, had received the pay of
able-bodied men and pensions at the same time. Sailors who
were discharged after serving twenty-one years, received a
pension for life ; but when they only suffered under temporary
disabilities, they only received temporary pensions. The
mode in which the Admiralty got rid of that gout
case, was not by stopping the pensions, as they
surely ought to have done, but by making the men
quit the service. The Government had since decided on*
giving no pensions but pensions for long service. He (Mr.
Wood) fully concurred with his Hon. and Gallant Friend the
Member for Marylebone, that it was exceedingly objectionable
to receive pay and pension together. He though the tendency
of the present system was to destroy a principle which was of
the greatest service to the Navy—that of keeping up a constant
intercourse with the merchant service. He always thought
that the fact of those who received the pensions from the
Navy going into the merchant's service, and speaking of the
present nature of the discipline of the Navy, did
much to do away with the dread which merchant
sailors frequently felt at entering the Navy. There
was a reduction of 10,0001. for dock-yard wages; he
questioned the prudence of this step, for it was only lately, that
the operations in our dock-yards had been conducted with suf-
ficient vigour, and to the necessary extent, especially in the
building of first and second rate line-of-battle ships, though of
course he would admit that it was advisable to delay the launch-
ing of ships, as long as possible; indeed, he was desirous to
see it decided how long ship could remain on the stocks with-
out being deterioated. Here he would advert to the bad
policy of the exposure that was made of the state of our dock-
yards in 1839, when, by an attack made by the opposite party,
foreign Powers were informed that there was not more than six
month's consumption in our dockyards, though that statement
did not give the exact facts of the case. But the Government
to which he had belonged, had been gradually advancing the
efficacy of the dock-yards, as would be seen from the wages
in successive years ; being in
1836 ... £300,000
1837
1838
1839 .
1840 460,000
1841
But now the amount taken was
Again the amount voted for stores was-
-1835 £383,000
1836
1837 575,000
1838 593,000
1839
1840 1,094.000
1841
Now it was
He hoped the dockyard system would lose none
of its efficiency under its present superintendence. With
regard to steam vessels, he thought the reduction of 50,0001.,
which was made in that department,: was a very large reduc-
tion ; and, looking to the great importance of steam vessels to
the Navy, he hoped that a large number of them would be
laid on in the course of the year. There was only one other
subject to which he would allude, and that was the packet ser-
vice. The passage to Halifax had been very successful , and
then with regard to the West Indies, the passage of vessels to
that place had been performed with great success. He con-
fessed he had a particular interest in those, because they were
part of the arrangements made by himself when he was con-
nected with the Admiralty ; and with respect to expense of the
passage to the West Indies, he believed the receipts of the Post-
office were more than sufficient to defray it.
Sir G. COCKBURN said, that with regard to what the
Hon Gentleman had said respecting the manning of the ships,
he (Sir G. Cockburn) must allow that although vessels of war
may be sufficiently manned to go to sea, they might not be so for
the purposes of war. He was therefore of opinion that it was
of the greatest importance that the ships should be properly
manned; and he would ask, how was it possible, if they left
the country without the proper complement of men, that they
could perform in the Chinese and Indian Seas those services
that were expected from them ? But if the proper number of
men were first employed, they could be more easily kept up.
With respect to pensions, they found that one of the difficulties
in getting ships manned arose from paucity of pensions, and
another difficulty, which arose from the same cause, was the
number of the deserters. Those pensions were granted some -
times for life, and sometimes for one or more oears. It was
always found that the longer the men remained in the ser-
vice the more competent they became, and if they expected a
pension the longer they would be inclined to remain in the
service. 1 f they remained 21 years in the service, they were
eligible to a pension ' • and if they were invalids, they received
pen:ions for two or three years.
Mr. C. WOOD explained.
Sir R H. INGLIS said he would not enter into the
general subject. He only rose for the purpose of de-
fending the commanders of the Niger expedition, which,
he contended, was confided to men as gallant as any
who ever carried their country's colours to any part
of the world. He was most anxious to express his
cordial acknowledgments to her Majesty's late and present Ad-
ministrations for the course they adopted with respect to that
expedition. Hon. Gentlemen were very sensitive with respect
to human life when the object was one of pure, unmixed bene-
volence. God forbid that he should undervalue the loss that
unhappily marked the course of that expedition. He grieved
as much as any gentleman in that House, or out of it, for the
loss of that expedition; but when he considered the loss of life
that attended other expeditions, conducted for the single and
sordid object of gain ; when he considered the loss of life at-
tending former expeditions, conducted for the purpose of
Carrying on the slave trade, and comparing it with the
loss of that expedition undertaken for the purpose
of supporting it, he did not think the sensitiveness of Hon.
Gentlemen, was greatly to be envied who could not endure
the loss of 2,500 persons out of 10,000 engaged in the Guinea
trade, one quarter of the number of persons employed in the
ships that formed the expedition. He most sincerely thanked
her Majesty's late Administration for sending an expedition
for purposes of the purest and most Christian benevolence.—
( Hear, hear.) He believed there were other instances of ex-
peditions in which 24 out of 25 persons perished, and a still
greater proportion out of the expeditions conducted
by Oldfleld and Lander. The result of the present ex pedi-
tion, he contended, did not justify the language held by per-
sons out of doors with respect to the policy which dictated that
expedition, and he hoped they would -still carry it forward as
far as might be consistent with the general principle on
which it was conducted. He did not see anything in that ex-
pedition to justify a Gallant Friend of his in speaking in the
manner he did of her Majesty's late Administration, and he
hoped the present Government would give the principle of it
their continued countenance and support.
Lord INGESTUIE explained.
Captain BERKELEY said in explanation, that when
serving on the coast of Syria, in the month of August, 1840,
they had been warned that they were likely to come in contact
with the French fleet, but it was not until the month of
January following that they had got one man to complete the
fleet. Even the ships sent out expressly for the purpose of
meeting the fleet of France had only been able to come on
their peace compliment. Fifteen hundred seamen had been
wanted to make up the complement, and up to the month of
January, 1841, they had only got 350 of the number.
Captain PECHELL said that he could not but express his
approval of the manner in which the Estimates bad been
brought forward that evening; and he was ready to admit that
much benefit had resulted to the service from improvements intro-
duced by the present Administration. He was particularly glad to
find that the practice was no longer enforced of not allowing
seamen to re-enter the service with their pensions. His only
regret was, that the estimates were not larger, so that we might
be enabled to have three fleets in full complement—the one in
the Downs, the other at Portsmouth, and the other at Ply-
mouth. It appeared that France had not reduced her fleet,
and the Right Hon. Baronet, the Member for Dorchester, had
stated in a speech addressed to his constituents, and M. Guizot
had positively stated in the French Chamber, that no such step
had been taken by the French Government. The French Minister
of Marine had made a similar declaration, and it appeared that
France had now six sail of the line lying at Brest. Under
these circumstances, and in the present critical times, it did
not become this country to reduce the great source of the na-
tional strength, on the score of economy. But although he
regretted that the Estimates were not larger, he thought they
were calculated to give entire satisfaction as far as they went.
After a few words from Sir G. COCKBURN, which were
quite inaudible in the gallery,
Sir C. NAPIER said, the Gallant Admiral had quite mis-
understood him, if ho supposed that he meant to speak disre-
spectfully of Lord Howe. What he had said was, that it was
impossible that he could have performed his duties as effi-
ciently, in that particular case, as lie would have done had he
not arrived at such an advanced age.
Mr. WILLIAMS did not intend to offer any opposition to
the vote.
Dr. BOWRING called the attention of the House to the
great irregularity which prevailed in the mode of keeping the
public accounts.
After a few words from Mr. F. BARING the vote was
agreed to.
The next vote of 1,436,629/, to defray the wages of seamen
and marines, was agreed to without observation.
742,842/. for invalid seamen was agreed to.
On the question that 121,429/. be granted to defray the ex-
penses of the Board of Admiralty,
Sir C. NAPIER said that he had found no ground of
reason why the Navy of this country should be governed by a
civilian, when he had never been on board of a ship in his life.
__(Hur, hear, and laughter.) The Government seemed to be

then wrote an official letter to the Admiralty, stating that he e
thought the punishment had been sufficient, and begging, as a -
personal favour, that the prisoner might be liberated. In reply
to that letter they stated that they could not consistently re-
mit the toll punishment, but that after the lapse of a month
they would grant a release. They considered that after the
young man had been dlsniiseed from the service, and disgracad,
by being sent to the Marshalled, if they kept him in the pri-
son any longer the sentence might appear to be vindictive ;
and, unless the House decided to the contrary, they would still
think that they had exercised a just and proper discretion.
It was not every: young man that could manage a ship,
although he had no doubt that every young man thought he
could.—( Laughter.) It required considerable experience and
knowledge, and a great deal of talent, to be able to manage a
ship. With respect to the age of an Admiral being an objec-
tion, as stated by the Hon. and Gallant Officer, he (Sir G.
Cockburn) thought that when a man had been em-
ployed, and had been found worthy of employment, it
was their duty to continue to employ him.—(Hear.) The
Gallant Officer thought that allowances should he made to offi-
cers to induce them to retire from the service. This had been
before introduced into the House, and it was decided that it
could not be entertained, and at that time it was argued and
well considered. With regard to the motion of the Gallant
Officer to increase the pay of seamen in the Navy, it was a
subject for grave consideration. In the first plate, if they in-
creased the pay of the seamen in the Navy, it would become
necessary for the merchants to increase their pay to sailors in
their ships. It behoved the parties conducting the affairs of
the country to look to this. With regard to adding to the
number of boys, they must consider that there (was always a
greater number of boys ready to go to sea, both in the Navy
and the merehatit service, than either could take, and there-
fore it would be an unwise thing tp bring up a larger number
than could be provided for, for the consequence would be,
that they would ultimately become paupers. At the time the
Navy amounted to 200,000, the next reduction caused 100,000
men to be turned out upon the wide world. Many became
labourers in the country, and were in great distress. He was
ready to admit that seamen could not be got in a day when
they wanted to increase the Navy. If they decreased the
Navy now, and a war should spring up, that difficulty they
would find. There could be no doubt that it was a highly
important thing to keep up a certain number, to prevent dis-
aster in case of war. If they kept up this number of seamen
in the Navy, the less necessity would there be for recruiting the
country. But it war were to come upon.them with but 32,000
seamean in the Navy they would have to go into the merchant
service for men. With respect to increasing the pay of the
officers in the Navy, he, for one, could have no objection ; but
it must be remembered that Captains had larger pay than Co-
lonels commanding regiments. With regard to the officers in
the Navy, they could not give too much encouragement to
them. They were very valuable men—they got attached to
the service, and moved about from one ship to another; and
he thought it highly desirable to give them encouragement.
He thought it was desirable that the officers commanding ships
should make a return of the petty officers that were fit to be-
come officers, and recommend them to the Admiralty. With
respect to the statement of the Hon. and Gallant Commodore

that many Admirals were not. fitted to command, he (Sir G.
Cockiewrn) must say he thought the Gallant Officer was very
much mistaken. With regard to the good service pension, there
was no objection on the part of the Admiralty to continue it to
those to whom it had already been granted. With respect to
the retirement of Captains, he thought it would bo a very
valuable thing to allow officers, after a certain age, to retire
upon 20s. a day.—(" Hear, hear," from Sir C. Napier) Now
with regard to another point alluded to by an Hon. and Gallant
Member on his ( SirG. Cockburn's) side of the House, viz., the
sale of commissions. It was not the first or second time it

had been mentioned in that House, but the question had nCti
been entertained. In these commissions a certain degrei of
interest must prevail. A person holding an office came to the
War-office when there was a commission for sale, and insisted
on his son or his nephew reu icing it. Now it was not easy
o resist this.—( Laughter.) He thought there was an advan-
tage in bringing young persons forward in different ranks,
although they ought not, nor did they, refuse advancement to
old officers. But still it was very useful to bring young men
forward, for young men gave sufficient money to retire
the old officer, and make him comfortable in his retirement ;
andin addition to this comfort the old man who had been
twenty or thirty years in the service felt that he was paid for
his service,. If an old officer had a son in the Navy, he came
to the Admiralty, and his name was put down for promotion on
the first vacancy. The Hon. and Gallant Member concluded
by saying that he thought it would be much more advisable to
give retiring Captains 20s. a day,instead of 14s. per day.
Captain BERKELEY commenced by saying that he was
perfectly satisfied with the answer he had received with respect
to the case of Mr. Elton, notwithstanding the odium thrown
upon the case by the public press. It was very true Mr. Elton
was in a ship under his. (Captain Berkeley's) command. His
(Mr. Elton's) friends had taken great pains to
.bring forward a
certificate from him (Captain Berkeley) approving the conduct
of the young man. Although the friends of Mr. Elton had
brought this certificate forward, they knew perfectly well why he
was obliged to quit. the ship. They were also aware of the rea-
sons that induced him (Captain 8.1 to turn him out of the
ship. He should have been content to have let the subject
rest, after the answer he had received, but for the feeling out
of doors, and the cx parte statements which had gone forth.
Having stated so much, he would just refer to the speech of
the Hon. and Gallant Member for Westminster, who stated
that a circumstance took place in the Mediterranean with re..
gard to some Midshipmen carrying a black flag round the
harbour. He merely begged to state that no such circum-
stance ever took place, and he wished to clear
.Admiral Sir
Robert Stopford from the supposition that such a circumstance
could have taken place under his command. He was quite
aware that Gallant Officer never would have allow ed it. He
(Captain B.) was very sorry, at all times, to make any eons-
parison between their brothers of the Army and themselves,
but it had been done that night by the Gallant Admiral,
opposite. He stated that the Captain in the Navy had a
higher pay than a Colonel in the Army, but it must be taken
into consideration that a Colonel in the Army had no mess,
while the Captain in the Navy was obliged to keep a table
for six months out of the year; and he had many other calls
upon him which the Colonel of a regiment had not. Much
had been said with regard to the age of officers, and it was very
well for the Hon. and Gallant Member who had just spoken
.to
allude to this, for he was promoted at a time when the list
was not so large as at the present time—at a time when there was
au absolute necessii y for such promotions for redeeming the list.
He did not think that he need trouble the Committee any
longer upon the subjest ; but before he sat down he should say
that the Navy, and the servtce generally, owed much to the
Hon. and Gallant Commodore (Sir C. Napier); and there was
one subject which, although a delicate one, he should advert to.
Be meant the comparison instituted between the Army and
Navy, as he should certainly say that it struck him most forcibly
that those who were placed at the head of the Admiralty had
not the same feelings or anxiety for the promotion of naval in-
terests, as those who were at the head of the Army, and for the
promotion of the interest of that service.—(Hear.) He made
that observation without the slightest disrespect for those
Noble and Gallant Officers at the head of the Admiralty. He
should further observe, as an illustration of what he had already
stated, that two of the last military officers who had distinguished
themselves were made Peers, while a similar distinction
had not been conferred upon Sir Robert Stopford, who, it
would be admitted upon all sides, had commenced and termi-
nated his career most brilliantly.—(Hear hear.) When it
was recollected that the result of the victory achieved by that
Gallant Officer had secured the peace of Europe, he (Capt.
Berkeley) thought that some distinction should have been con-
ferred upon Sir Robert Stopford upon the same principle that
rewards for public service were conferred upon military officers.
Lord IN ESTRIE said it was gratifying to see Gentlemen
on both sides of the House discussing t'his subject without ad-
verting to politics. As reference had beets made to Sir Robt.
hisS topfe%i
rvd:hlie
that a peerage had been conferred upon
(Lord Ingestrie) should add the expression of
that distinguished office: ; it was an honour due,
not only to him as an officer of distinction, but
it was due to the profession to which he belonged, He trusted,
alter what had fallen from the Right Hon. and Gallant Admi-
ral, that seine plan would be hit upon to secure younger men
for the naval service. He did not mean the slightest disrespect
to the officers who had been so long intoservice, but he
thought a small additional pay should be given to them on re •
tiring; it would not cost the country
much, and it would afford
an opportunity of providing for officers who had been distin-
guished, and have their places filled up
by younger men. He
wished to advert to the subject of the construction of British
ships; a subject which was neglected by this country for a
series of years, however, he was glad to see by the
newspapers that there was a committee of shipwrights
appointed at Woolwich to see that every improvement
should be effected in the construction of ships for the future.
Ile would beg leave to ask the Right Hon. and Gallant Ad-
miral whether it was the intention of the Admiralty that their
line of battle ships should be constructed for the future upon
the plans of Admiral Hay. He (Lord Ingestrie) thought that
the English Navy was not supplied with a sufficient quan-
tity of heavy frigates. He wished also to ask the Right Hon.
and Gallant Admiral a further question with reference to the
Niger Expedition. He (Lord Ingestrie) called the attention
of the House to that subject in a former Session of Parliament,
and he was extremely sorry to say that the apprehension he
then expressed had since turned out to be lamentably true.
He wished to ask (as the Noble Lord was understood) whether
any report had been received from that expedition, or whether
it was intended to repeat it.

Sir GEORGE COCKBURN rose to reply, but from the
low tone of voice in which he spoke, it was impossible to hear
a sentence. The Gallant Admiral was understood to say that
the strictest attention would be paid to the construction of Bri-
tish ships, with a view to make them the most perfect, the
strongest, and the best possible description of ships that could
be constructed, both as regarded their stability, their power of
sailing, and, what is still more important, the working off ir
lee shore. The most particular attention should be paid to the
construction of the bows and steps/4 which were the great
points where strength was required in,ships,of,war,. They
might still effect some improvement in the construction of ships,
hut he was hound to say he believed the very best ship in the
British navy was the Inconstant. The sailors described her by
using a nautical phrase, which was—that she sailed over the
water like a duck, whilst the others had their bowsprits under
water.

er
to a ver
y which was
Lord STANLEY said it might be proper for him to notice
a subject which was brought under the consideration of the
Committee by the Noble Lord who had just sat down ; he
meant the Niger Expedition. That expedition was undertaken
with a desire to increase and improve the communication, if
possible, between this country and the interior of Africa, and
carriedif possibleon
there.put a 1
tstop v a
st o
impossibletl sytern o
to dfen slavery
that
great extent that expedition was a failure.—(Hear, hear.)
He would not say it was altogether a failure, because it showed
a disposition upon the part of the people in that country to im-
prove and enter into commercial intercourse with this
country. However, it was impossible to contend against the
climate of Africa. The Government would not feel them.
selves justified, after the lamentable losses that had occurred,
again to risk the lives of Europeans and white persons in
' to send another expedition up the Nile.
attempting He be-
lieved he might safely say thst the Government who had sent
out that expedition had no idea of the fatal results.—( Hear,
hear.) With respect to the British Vubjects who had esta-
blished themselves in the interior of Africa, it was a matter
deserving of the most serious consideration whether it would
be possible to interfere for their protection. He (Lord
Stanley) would decline saying anything that would show an
intention upon the part of her Majesty's Government, or bind
them in the least, to give protection to those people.
He
totally disclaimed the idea that British protection by force of
arms could or would be given to them, and if British subjects
would settle themselves there, they should not expect
any protection from this country, but they must live
under the laws and the Government of the country in which
they chose to reside. At the same time, he should say that
they ought not to be altogether abandoned by the Government.
It deserved serious consideration whether it might not be pro-
per to send out a small frigate to that country, for the purpose
of removing or bringing home those British subjects, if the
chose it, and afford them that moral support and protection
to which, as subjects of this realm, they were entitled; the
vessel might be entrusted to the care of negroe3, who would
not be affected by the climate ; at the same time he (Lord
Stanb y) should say that, looking at the dreadful 1033 of life
which had occurred in that expedition, her Majesty's Govern-
ment had no intention whatever to repeat it.
Mr. CHARLES WOOD said he had the greatest satis-
faction in hearing the statements which had been
made
by the Noble Lord of the intentions of her Majesty's
Government, with reference to the Niger expedition.
it zags 1101 Lis intention to go into many matters which
had
1
occupied the attention of the House. He would only, before

folios ing the policy of Turkey, which appointed the Capitan
Pacha on the ground that he had been born within sight of the
sea, as was the canoe with the present First Lord of the Admi-
ralty. It was aid that a civilian was appointed to the office,
because he was less likely to have personal motives for promot-
ing officers in the service. But if he were obliged to
have recourse to a naval officer to assist him, he (Sir
Charles Napier) could not see how that naval officer might
not have his relations and personal friends to promote just as
much as if he were the First Lord of the Admiralty himself.
From the year 872—( Great laughter).—to a recent period in
our history, the Sovereigns were the heads of the Admiralty,
they were the kings of the sea, and the Navy was immediately
directed by High Admirals. In the reign of Queen Anne,
after Lord Pembroke had served the office of Lord High Ad-
miral, the Commissioners of the Admiralty were appointed, and
the system had continued since ttat time, for what reason he
knew not, unless it was that the Ministers of the day, on look-
ing about them, found that civilians possessed more Par-
liamentary influence than naval men possessed. An-
other reason was, that it was extremely advantageous to the
Minister of the day to have the whole of the administration of
the Navy under his control, particularly when parties were
nicely balanced in that House.—( Hear, hear, and laughter. )
He wished to show that this was no new opinion of his, or ex-
pressed from opposition to the present Government. As far
back as 1816, he had addressed a letter to Lord Melville, in
which he had pointed out the objectionable manner in which
the Navy was governed. In this he did not allude to a mere
Lord of the Admiralty, but to something even worse. (The
Hon. and Gallant Member then read a short extract, in which
he made a strong objection to the appointment of a military
man to the Board of Admiralty.) This was in 1816, and he
believed he followed it up, when the Right Hon Baronet. was
at the head of the Admiralty. ;Then he came into office he
( Sir C. Napier) pointed out the propriety of having a Com-
mander-in-Chief of the Fleet. He could not understand,
when the Army had a Commander-in-Chief who was not a
Cabinet Minister, wnile the Master-General of the Ordnance,
the Quartermaster-General, the Military Secretary, and all
the officials of the Army administration were almost, exclu-
sively, military men, why, there was not a Commander-in-
Chief, or whatever name he might have, at the head of the
Navy. There were many reasons why there should
be one ; it often happened that the First Lord of the
Admiralty was very ignorant of naval affairs, but after remain-
ing in office a little time, he imagined he was a perfect sailor,
and he believed that in the case of the last Lord of the Admiralty,
he assumed a great deal more power than he had any authority
to do, because in the Board of Admiralty the re-
sponsibility was divided. But if he was not mis•
taken, the late Lord of the Admiralty did assume
a power that had never been assumed before; it was with re-
spect to manning the Navy. A scheme was prepared, after
great deliberation, for keeping the number of the Navy as low
as possible, and that was to be a war complement, with one-
eighth to be taken as a peace establishment This was pre-
sented to Lord Minto, who pat it in his pocket, and
never brought it before the Board at all, and no-
thing was heard of it till it wasunderstood
Lordship had struck off one-fifth instead of one-eighth. Was
that a proper way for the naval administration to be con-
ducted ? In the time either of the Earl of Chatham or of
Lord Spencer, the Board of Admiralty desired to supersede
Admiral Bridport, but several of the Lords of the Admiralty
refused to sign the order, when they were threatened by the
First Lord that if the order was not signed, the Board
should cease to exist.—(Hear. hear.) But it went even
further than this; he had been told on good authority that in
the time of Lord Spencer, several sheets of foolscap were sent
round and signed, though many of the Lords of the Admiralty
did not know the contents. But an instance had occurred of
late years. He had read in one of the Malta papers that in a
letter from Lord Minto, Admiral Stopford was ordered
to proceed off Candia, and there wait for orders.
Was the Gallant Admiral right or wrong in obeying that
order? If the First Lord of the Admiralty was responsible, the
naval administration would be better conducted. They had a
Vice and Rear-Admiral of England ; he did not wish to de-
prive them of their offices, but for the future he should pro-
pose that there should be two Lords to assist
the Commissoners of the Navy in carrying on affairs. He
would put the Vice-Admiral of England at the head of the
dockyards of the kingdom ; for if there had been one officer
at the head of the dockyards for the last tea years, they would
not have been twenty-five years in i riding out that- it
was necessary to keep a ship of war on the slips to
save her from rotting. If they had such an officer they would
not have found the masts of sixty or seventy sail of the line
totally rotten. If they had a Commander-in-Chief at the head
of the Navy the British fleet would never have been
manned in the way it had been, for he would
have told the Prime Minister that he would not
take the responsibility of sending the fleet to sea in
such a manner. The present Board of Admiralty was
nothing but a screen to escape responsibility, for if any dis-
aster happened to whom could they apply? They
could not hang the whole Board of Admiralty.—
(Lsughter. ) One man might be impeached, and more
easily than four or five, but at present the blame would be
thrown from one to another through the whole Board. He
thought he had heard it stated that night that the stores of the
Navy were reduced to the lowest possible scale ; that they were
all on paper; that, in fact, there was nothing in the dock-
yards at all. Now, if the First Lord had of his own will and
deed, and without consulting the other Lords, had reduced
the dock-yards to that state, he would ask whether the
First Lord would take the responsibility of the con-
sequence to the country ? He had stated his objections
to the manner in which the Navy was governed,
and he would only make one other observation, which was,
that if it continued to be conducted in the same manner by a
Board of Admiralty, favour and affection in the promotions
must go on through every branch of the service. The Right
Hon. Baronet (Sir J. Graham) had, during his Administra-
tion, destroyed the Navy Board and the Victualling Board, but
if he had gone further, and destroyed the Admiralty itself, he
would have done still greater good. He had great respect for
the Noble Lord (Lord Haddington) at present at the head of
the Admiralty; he believed he would job the Admiralty as
little as any of his predecessors ; but if the First Lord of the
Admiralty were made perfectly responsible, he would not ask
a naval officer to be placed there.

Captain CARNEdIE said the only reason why it had not
been thought expedient to place a naval officer at the head of
the Navy was, that it was said he must be in the Cabinet, as
it required a man of great talents and active habits. Now his
answer to that was, keep him out of the Cabinet, if he was not
worthy to enter it. The Navy would not complain of it.
The Army, he believed, did not complain because Lord
Hill was not in the Cabinet. The Navy did not
want a man versed in State secrets, but a man
who knew the secret of _ governing the Navy.—(Hear.)
if they were not to have a Naval Lord at the head of the Ad-
miralty, lie hoped Government would see the necesity of be-
stowing (some ,of the appointments, that came daily in their
gift, upon naval men. Such, for instance, as the Second Se-
cretary to the Admiralty, now so ably filled by Sir John Bar-
row. He hoped, also, that hereafter the Government would
take into consideration the propriety of making naval men
Commissioners of Greenwich Hospital. In conclusion, he
must say, in justice to the Hight Hon. Gentleman, that the
civilian at the head of the Admiralty Board was one of the
most competent that had ever been appointed.
Lord HOWICK admitted the importance of the subject that
had been brought under the consideration of the Honour-
able and Gallant Officer. But while he did so, he had no
hesitation in, saying, that he gave the preference to the existing
arrangement, because it by no means excluded naval men
from being First Lords of the Admiralty. He thought
it would be extremely inconvenient if it were laid down
as a rule that persons of high rank in the Navy were to be made
Fit st Lords of the Admiralty. Such a system had worked ill
in the Army, and he felt convinced that it would do so in:the
Navy. He would not at this hour of the night attempt
to refer to instances where such an arrangement in
the Army had been attended with the very worst effects.
But this he would say, that at a fitting opportunity he should
be prepared to show, in the Administration of the Army for
the last thirty-five years, a series of mismanagement and
blunders, affecting the lives and the welfare of British soldiers,
by which hundreds of thousands of lives, and millions of
money had been sacrificed. If he could show that such a state
of things had occurred in the Army, he trusted that a system
which had led to such results would not be followed in the Na-y.
He thought that the country and Parliament looked for the good
management of the Navy to the First Lord of the Admiralty,
but he could not carry out the different services connected
with the office without he could find high officers to co-ope-
rate with him. If officers in the Admiralty did not think
affairs were carried on in a manner of which they could approve,
their duty was plain and simple, it was to retire from the
Board. There ought to be the most entire confidence
among the members of the Board of Admiralty, therefore
he regretted that the Hen. and Gallant Officer had read the
letter which he (Lord Howick) was convinced had not been
intended to be read to the House of Commons. The reading
of letters of that kind would put an end to all confidence among
Members of the Admiralty. His (Lord Howick's) object in
rising was not to let the speeches of the Gallant Officers that
had been delivered that night go forth without giving his
opinion on the plausible doctrines advanced in those speeches,
namely, that they ought not to put an unprofessional man at
the head of the Admiralty.
Sir H. HARDINGE said that at that late hour of the
night it was not fitting to discuts the question whether the
Navy ought to be governed by a civilian or not. The report
which the Noble Lord had signed—every tittle of the evidence
upon which the report had been founded, and which had been
given before the Noble Lord himself, went in a direction con-
trary to the judgment which had been arrived at. If Hon.
Members would read the evidence of the Duko of Wellington
before that Commission (it was a Commission appointed by his
late Majesty), they would find not only in the evidenoe given
by the Noble Duke, but also in that given by. Lord Vivian, by
himself, and several other Military Officers, .that the intended
plan of superseding the Commander-M-Chief, by a civilian,
would have a most disastrous effect spew the Army,
So strongly impressed was Lord Vivian with that sentiment,
that when, as part of the plan of the Noble Lord, it was intended
to abolish the office of Master-General of the Ordnance, or re-
form it, he intimated that sooner than accede to such a depre-
ciation of his office, he would resign. The Noble Lord must
be aware that the Duke of Wellington and several officers
condemned his plan. As for himself, he would never consent
to the functions of Commander-in-Chief being conferred on a
civilian.

Ca Stain BERKELEY explained that the Hon .4 ..4444.4.4.4.4.44.4444
was Gentleman
In tistaken in saying that the question of manninee.had been a
Board eiuestion while he Berkeley)(Capatawian3bsth vas the Board.
The mdi '<e
el
Incbe)he enw taken
ur carriage,iar Lord,ste
rbeing(
nadn he
a ssaiadboutot tohri'lseaH'eolo-tios'
it will end, the complements will
(tscieerralied'4lh°tai°:::r.nd I shall have to give up my seat at the not be
Shortly after he (Capt. Berkeley) went down into the
country, and while there ho received a letter from the Hon.
Gentleaut n, saying—" One•fifth will be taken off instead of
one-elk-MI), and that, I trust, will satisfy you." His answer to
that coormunication was the publication of his answer to Sir
John Ilarroves letter, and the resignation of his se* at that
Board.
Sir ROBERT PEEL would address himself to the question
which bad been raised by the Hon. and Gallant 0m0e,..
He did not consider that it was fitting that this House should
lay down a rule that, under all circumstances, the office of First
Lord of the Admiralty should be filled by a naval officer. lid
should by sorry to tai down a rule excluding, under all circum-
stances, a naval man from the office of First Lord of the Admi-
ralty, btrt the present system did no such thing. It. }eft the
office opt n to naval officers, while at the same time it did not
exclude civilians, and he should be sorry to see the House
depart
itadbe froooam the
dmiii istecceodnsftoitrutn
oioeatlyuandeeer century.
—ch(Hethare,
hear.
.)
Since 17.97 there had been only two instances in which
naval man had been at the head of the Beard of Ad-
miralty, and the Right lion. Baronet was justified in saying
that the administration of the service had given general satis-
faction. Let them consider the great naval exploits which
had been performed with civilians presiding at the head of the
Board. Tht re were alvtays naval officers in the Board to
girt. the First Lord advice, and when they looked
at the names of those who had been First Lords
for the last, forty years, Lord Spencer, Mr. Gren-
ville and .Lord Grey, he thought the 'House ought to
Navy.
It might be necessary, to make reductions in the
Navy. It was clear that a civilian was most fit to make those
reductions. A gain, a civilian was much better fitted to intro-
duce reform into the Naval Service than a Naval officer could
possibly be. A _Naval Officer would be too much under
the dominion of professional prejudices—(.Hear, bear,
hear)—prejudicesw Inch personally did him the highest honour,
to carry many measures into effect which might be carried
into effect by a civilian. On the whale, he trusted the Howe
would not interfere with the present constitution of the Board
of Admiralty.

Sir J. NAPIER could not agree with the Right Hon.
Baronet in the high character which he gave the Board
of Admiralty. He (Sir Charles Napier) had been
in the service forty-two years, and during the whole
of that time he had heard constant complaints of the
manner in which the Navy had been ruled by the Board of Ad-
miralty. The argument of the Right Hon. Baronet as to the
number of celebrated men whe had presided over the Board of
Admiralty, told in his (Sir Charles Napier's) favour.—
(Cries oft " Hear, hear.") Lord Barham was the First
Lord at the time when the battle of Trafalgar was fought;
shortly alter there was a change in the Administration, and
Lord Howick, now Lord Grey, succeeded him. lie was suc-
ceeded by Mr. Grenville, who was succeeded in his turn by
Lord Audley, making four changes in one year. He (-Cr C.
Napier), well recollected the inconvenience attending those
changes, and he had reason to do so, for he
had well nigh become a victim to them himself.
( The Hon and Gallant. Member then read a long letter, that
he had written to the Board of Admiralty in the year JBl6,
complaining of a civilian being placed at the head of the Ad-
miralty, as it was annoying to the feelings of officers to be
obliged to state the circumstances of every action to a chief
who knew not how to appreciate them.) The continued changes
which took place in the Board of Admiralty entailed an enor-
mous expense on the country. When the Board of Admiralty
was under the last Government, they made changes, and (lid a
great deal of good by doing so. When the present Adminis-
tration came into office, another general change took place, and
destroyed the good the last Board of Admiralty had done. Now
all these changes brought great expense upon the country—
an expense lion. Gentlemen were not aware of. The Noble Lord
near him said that the remedy was perfectly easy, for, if one
Lord of tko Admiralty disapprovecrof what the Board of Ad-
miralty did, he could put a check upon them by resigning.
But he (Sir C. Napier) did not think Hon. Gentlemen were
much inclined to resign office at all, because, they kept in as
long as they could He never saw a Lord of the Admiralty who
was willing to resign his situation and give up 1,0001. a.
year—( Continued laughter)—therefore, he thought the check
was very insufficient. The .Noble Lord said the British Army
was in a direful position, and yet that army, under the Duke of
Wellington, had obtained the most glorious victories on record.
But the Noble Lord was no soldier. Ile pretended to say the
Army was ill-ruled, and he wished to keep the Navy in their
hands, in order to increase the patronage ofthe Government.—
(Loud laughter.) They had heard the Right Hon. Baronet
tell them of the great victories of our men ; and he (Sir C
Napier) knew that during the latter period of the war the ships
were so insufficiently provided, that when a shot was fired at
the enemy they could not hit her.—(Laughter.) He
was in the Mediterranean fleet at the time when
the war commenced with America, and instead of mantling
ships suffic,ently well they sent out British men of war to be
taken and disgraced, and this was under a civil Board of
Admiralty. What did that Board of Admiralty do when they
found out their mistake? Why a secret order was sent
out to the officers on the American station not to
engage American frigates if they fell in with
them, thus throwing the whole of the blame on the Captains.
The Captains did as they were ordered. " When I get the order
(continued the Gallant Commodore), I put it into the only fit
place for it, the quarter-gallery."—(Loud laughter, which con-
tinued for many minutes.) He remembered perfectly, well
when the late King became Lord High Admiral, the
Navy at that time was not in a wholesome state, it was ex-
tremely inefficient. He (the late King) found no justice was
going on, great patronage existed, and everything was saeri-
, ticed to political influence. He (the late King) did
' a great deal towards reforming the Navy. He used to
go down to Portsmouth and examine the ships himself,
Every Captain, when Ihe heard that the Lord High Admiral
was coming down, took particular pains to see that his ship
was in order, for he well knew, if it was not, the Lord
High Admiral would complain. He (Sir Charles Na-
pier) remembered one case of an officer, under his com-
mand, and a gallant officer he was, serving in the
Burmese war, being severely wounded. He fell ill and was near
to die, and he saw his junior officets promoted. Notwith-
standing his being recommended by his Commander to the
Admiralty, he could not get the smallest redress. He (Sir
C. Napier) himself asked the reason, and went to the
Admiralty, hut he could not get the smallest re-
dress ; but he wrote to the Lord High Admiral,
and the answer was, the officer was appointed to a
Captaincy. These things would occur again, and it they were
persisted in, it was perfectly impossible that the Navy could be
carried on with credit or advantage. He (Sir C. Napier)
had seen the British Navy himself in America
near being disgrac,tl ; if they (the British line)
I had fallen in with a .French brig during the war—il'•
manned as the British vessels were, in consequence of the
stubbornness of those under whose management naval
affairs were then conducted there was not an
officer in the British line who could say they
were sure of victory. If the British Navy was ruled
by British officers, he was sure that those things
would not happen again. The Hon. and Gallant Member
concluded by moving, as an amendment, a reduction in the
estimate to the amount of 4,5001. _

After a few words from Captain PECTIELL in support of
the amendment; also from Mr. Woon and the Hon. SIDNEY
HERBERT,
The question was put from the Chair, and the Amendment
was negatived without a division. The vote was then agreed to.
The next vote for 716,799/._ to defray the charges of the half-
pay of the officers of the navy was agreed to, after a short con-
versation between Mr. Williams, Mr. Charles Wood, Captain
Pechell, and Mr. Sidney Herbert.
The House resumed, the CHAta•stax reported progress,
and obtained leave to sit again on Monday.
EXCHEQUER BILLS.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER brought in
a Bill for the appointment of a commission to inquire into
the Exchequer Bills' fraud, which was ►ead a first time, and
ordered to be read a second time on Monday.
Lord ELIOT brought in a Bill to amend an Act of her
present Majesty for vacating any presentment for rebuilding
the Gaol of Newgate in Dublin, and vacating any contract be-
tween the Commissioners for rebuildirg the said gaol and the
contractor, which was read a first time, and ordered to be
read a second time on Monday.
The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and the
House adjourned at One o'Clock, till Monday.

THE CORN-LAWS.-MEETING IN

SHAD WELL.

A very numerous meeting of the inhabitants of the parish of St
Paul, Shadwell, including the most influential merchants and ship.
owners of that district, was last night held in the Vestry room,
"to consider the means to be adopted on Sir Robert Peel's intention
to perpetuate the Corn laws."

Mr. CAREW, one of the Churchwardens, having been called to
the Chair, stated the objects of the meeting; and it having beers
intimated that some Chartists were in the room, who were not
parishioners, requested that no one would interfere in the business
of the evening who was not a parishioner.
Mr. ALLAM moved the first resolution, which was as follows :
"That this meeting deeply sympathizes with their fcliow.country.
men who are the subjects of severe fulferings and privations, and
same time
as tradeeannotis
but
lei-ast ess
declining,eir
and m
anxious
eocmon concern for
)caving
forth r
fttat the
eeinterest,
our shores, the whole of which is attributable to the baneful effects
of the Corn and pnwision_lawa. This meeting further expresses
their disappointment in the measures prepared by her Majesty's
Government, which measure, instead of affording the least be.
nest, only tends to perpetuate the same iniquitous system, and
that such plans are alike an insult to the nation and to suf-
fering humanity. Seeing, therefore, that they have declined to
repeal those laws, which would be the only means to remove
distress, and improve trade, the meeting do memorialize het' Majesty
to dismiss from her counsels the present Ministry, and appoint such
men as will appreciate the nation's claims, and render to the trading
and commercial interests that justice so long denied them." Mr.
Allam reviewed the plan preposedby Sir R. Peel, and contended that
the Corp-law was no benefit to either the manufacturer or agricul-
turist, but was the bane of all classes, more particularly the poor.
He knew it was difficult to approach Royalty, and it was more than
probable that their memorial would not Rod its way to her Majesty,
but if it did not, those to whom it would be confided would see
what was the opinion of this populortt distriet.
The resolution having been seconded,
Mr. Faun moved an amendment, which, on being read, was
found to be so nearly like the motion, and no seconder having been
found for it, that it fell to the ground,
The original motion having been put, was carried unanimously
amidst great applause.

Captain BERKELEY said, that with respect to his leaving
the Admiralty, he had written the letter which the gallant
Commodore had read in explanation of the reasons which in-
fluenced him to resign his office. The letter was a mere state-
ment of facts. He had been guilty of no breach of confidence
whatever. He was not the first that had published any state-
ment on the matter. His publication was in answer to a pub-
lication of the second Secretary of the Board of Admiralty,
who was present at all their deliberations, and who knew his
(Capt. Berkeley's) opinion on the subject. He had published a
defence of that statement, and he had been rewarded by the
First Lord of the Admiralty by the purchase of his book.—
( Laughter. ) He (Capt. Berkeley) found it necessary, without
entertaining any ill-will towards his colleagues, to
make that statement, which he did, and the letter
which he wrote was a simple statement (as there were so many
mis-statements abroad) as to the reasons which had influenced
his conduct, and one of those reasons given among his constitu-
ents was.--that he was about to change his polities and go over
to the other side of the House; it therefore became him in every
just way that he could, to account for the manner in which he
left the political party to which he belonged then, and still be-
longed. If the Gallant Commodore would wove that the sa-
lary of the First Lord of the Admiralty, ao long as he was a
civilian should be reduced, he (Captain Berkeley) would go
out of the House and vote with him.
Mr. C. WOOD regretted very
gretted very much that the Gallant Officer 1 SCHOOL rou. \\rms.—By the Authoress of
had read the letter
' " Temptation." —This work belongs to that estimable class of
in
novels, the aim of which is not merely to present a vivid or
Sir C. NAPIER said he was authorised to do so.
striking picture of society, but, also to convey lessons of deepest
Mr. C. WOOD then regretted very much that the Gallant
im ) Hance in e ard to the Hes of conduct in life,
Officer had authorised the Gallant Commodore to read that practicaly
which its 'happiness isr gordinarily and easily affected. The,
letter. Surely the Hon. and Gallant. Gentleman would not Authoress writes chiefly for her own sex, as the title both of
deny that the Fiist Lord of the Admiralty was at liberty to this and her former production intimates, and she teaches how
write to an Admiral on a foreign station, giving him information. ' on the one hand, by inconsiderate waywardness of temper, the
Sir C. NAPIER—Orders.(A laugh.) fondest unions in that tesselated trial of marriage may be gre•
Mr. C. WOOD was surprised that the Hon. and Gallant dually enfeebled and dissolved, while on the ether, an ha-
Officer should talk about orders. Surely the Hon. and bitual cultivation of those delicate affectionate amiabilities
Gallant Officer must be aware that no orders could be issued which should be ever associated with the character of woem.aon-
by any single Member of the Board of Admiralty, but First. rarely fail in rendering smooth even the roughest ways of d
Lord was surely at liberty to write a private letter to Sir Robert
Stopfore, giving him information, and Sir Robert Stopford enestic intercourse. The incidents by which she illusiorsaft,e,asrhieectr
kindly lessons are spiritedly designed, and in situationseotrasted disc
could not be blamed for going to Candia on the information interest bring into action characters
he lia:il received from Lord Matto. The Hon. and Gallant of most
tnd tie. merits of
similarity. In a word, both for its purttes,f; amrives,,
Officer had said that he (Mr. C. Wood hadis fairly
its vitaliser of execution, "The Sell 0, '"
t all those who come
stated Csat the Naval stores were in a most discreditable entitled to a cordial welcome am
state. He (Mr. C. Wood) had said no more to-night than he !
within the circle of the i purls whontointgcsuntemplates.—Herald.
had said three years ago when he was in office.

Mr. A. C. ALLAN then proposed the adoption of a memorial
founded upon the above resolution, to her Majesty, which was
unanimously agreed to.

A Committee was then appointed to carry the resolution into
effect, and it was resolved that the proceedings of the meeting
should be advertised in the Times, Sun, and Morning Advertiser.
It was then proposed by 'Mr. JACKSON', and seconded by Mr.
WARDLE, " That the best thanks of this meeting are due, and are
hereby given to the Proprietors of The Sun newspaper, for their
zealous exertions for the interests of the people, and more espe-
cially for the publicity giros to the proceedings of this parish."
A vote of thanks was then given to the Chairman, and the meet.
lug separated.