The Sun.
London, England, 1845-06-05 00:00:00

GROUP SS.

COVENTRY, BEDIWORTII, AND Ar TINE &TON
RAILWAY.

The Select Committee on this group re-assembled at the usual
hour this morning, when
Mr. Calvert made an application for an adjournment. All
parties, he said, now concurred in the propriety of an adjourn.
ment, and if the Committee agreed to it he had no doubt *fa saving
of the time of the Committee, and a settlement of the differences
subsisting between the parties. He therefore prayed the Com-
mittee to put off the further consideration of this Bill till Mon-
day next.
• '• '

The CHAIRMAN wished to know if all parties concurred in this
application ?
Mr. SPARKES, on behalf of the London and Birmingham Com-
pany, was prepared to acquiesce in the application for an adjourn-
ment, but he was not in a condition to say that the result of this
adjournment would relieve the Committee from further entering
into this ca.se,

Mr. HUMPHREY, on the part of petitioners for whom he ap-
peared, would be extremely unwilling to throw any obstacle in the
way of a satisfactory adjustment of the differences existing between
the parties, but he must confess that he did not think the result of
the adjournment would prove so satisfactory as his Learned Friend
anticipated.
Mr. DANIEL concurred in the adjournment upon the same
grounds, and hoped some satisfactory adjustment of the differences
would be made.

The CIikIAMAN said the Committee were willing to assent to the
adjournment, but they wished to proceed at once with the

ER.EVTASH VALLEY LINE.

Mr. CaLvgaT said he was not aware, until he entered the room,
that an adjournment would be required in the other case, and he
was therefore quite unprepared to proceed with the Erewash line.
In fact, he thought most of his witnesses were engaged in another
Committee. Under these circumstances he trusted the Committee
would not press him to proceed at once, or all events until he
had had an hour or so to glance over his brief, and get his witnesses
and clients together. _ _

Eventually the Committee decided upon adjourning till twelve
o'clock, when it was understood all parties would be prepared to go
fully into the case for the Erewash Valley Railway.

(LEFT ammo.)

GROUP V.
MANCHESTER, SHEFFIELD, AND MID-

LAND JUNCTION RAILWAY.

The Committee, consisting of the O'Conor Don, chairman,
Mr. I. A. S. Davies, Mr. Hope Johnstone, Sir John Rae Reid, and
Sir Denham Norreys, met this morning at half-past eleven, and
Mr. JOHNSTONE proceeded to cross•examine Mr. Paul Bright,
who had estimated the value of land required for spoil banks, sta-
tions, and other purposes on part of the lime. The witness stated
that he had received the quantities of land required from Mr.
Fairbank, and had estimated it at the ;ate at which he really
thought it worth.
Mr. William Flockton—Was an architect and surveyor in the
town of Sheffield, and he was also proprietor of some 150 houses in
that town. He knew the value of land upon the line, and had
carefully examined it lately, with a view to valuation. On the two
miles reaching from the town of Sheffield he placed the value of
23,7291. That value was accepted in every case, with but one
exception. He had been instructed to be very liberal in his valua-
tions, and he had ed out his instructions. He had also
valued the ground which would be required in the hay and cattle
markets of Sheffield ; and the ground required for piers he had esti.
mated at 1,4821. The estimates, he was sure, were not taken be.
neath the real value of the property required.

Mr. Fall, on the part of the Duke of Norfolk, was called to prove
that the amount of toll paid on the Dumfries-road was only 18/.
per annum ; and that, therefore, the statement of 1,200 tons of
coal passing along it was preposterous, because, averaging 9d. per
mile for toll, that would be 2251. a year. He was certain,
therefore, that the statements already given in were founded in
error.

Mr. L. R. Reed had gone over the line, and he was certain that
the estimates for the construction of the project were greatly
underrated.

Mr. John Barlow, a farmer, near Sheffield—Was in the habit
of using the hay and cattle market of Sheffield, and he knew that
the rpace now was much too limited for the purposes of the mar.
kets, and any partition of it, or contraction of the space, would com.
pletely destroy it.
The Committee then adjourned at four till to-morrow.

GROUP W.
BRAYTON AND GOOLM RAILWAY.

The Committee on this line met at twelve o'clock, Mr. Paking-
ton in the Chair; Mr. Bouverie, Mr. Maxwell, Mr. Whitmore,
and Lord Seymour present.

Mr. Sheriff, whose evidence was partly heard yesterday, was
cress•examined by Messrs. Bliss and Wilkins. lie could give no
evidence on the passenger traffic, being only engaged on the goods
traffic on the Selby and Leeds line.
Mr. Singleton, land valuer, had valued the land between Bray-
ton and Goole. A great deal of it was poor land, chiefly a sandy
soil. The length of the line was twelve miles, and he valued the
cost, allowing 10 acres to the mile, at 11,4001. He consi-
dered the line would confer great benefit on the trade of that
district.

By Mr. WILKINS—It would be an advantage in affording facili-
ties for the trade in lime and coals, and also for the conveyance
of agricultural produce.
Mr. Birkenshaw, engineer of the line, was examined by Mr.
KnowLes—He had considerable experience in the working and
construction of railways—laid out the Brayton and Goole. The
line was nearly level, except that part near the River Aire and the
Selby canal. The length of the line was 12* miles. There were
not many curves, and those were not objectionable. The greatest
curve was only three-quarters of a mile in radius. The worst
gradients were 1 in 130. The line did not interfere with any ho ,se
or park, &c. The line would afford a good communication with Leeds
and Bradford, and even Wakefield, and would also open a communi-
cation with the North of England. Comparing it with the Wake-
field and Goole line he did not hesitate to give the preference
to it, even as a communication with Wakefield itself.
By Lord SEYMOUR—The reason he thought so was the more
favourable gradients it afforded. The difference in distance was
♦ery little.
By Mr. KNOWLES—The engines on the Brayton and Goole
line would carry out a load 50 per cent, greater than engines of the
same power weuld do by the Wakefield and Goole line. The
ruling gradient on the Wakefield, Pontefract, and Goole line, was
1 in 150. That continued for 11 miles. The population on the
Brayton and Goole line was about 31,000, and on the other line
about 21,000. The witness then gave evidence on the gradients on
the line of country between Goole, Leeds, Bradford, and the west,
to show how much greater facilities, both in gradients, economy of
construction, and in accommodation of goods and passenger traffic,
the proposed line would afford as compared with the Wakefield,
Pontefract, and Goole line.
Cross-examined by Messrs. WILKINS and Buss—Got his popula-
tion returns from the census of 1841 that had been officially pub-
lished. Did not omit any town he found in the official returns.
The reason he omitted RocklifFe was because, in his opinion, it
naturally belonged to the Goole line.—(A laugh.)
Mr. Good, engineer, examined by Mr. PICKERING—Had consi-
derable experience in railways. Lived in London. The station at
Bradford of the Leeds and Bradford line was very near the town,
and was as favourable as could be selected for the public accommo-
dation. The Leeds and Dewsbury line was 60 feet above the level of
the town. He considered that the favourable gradients on the
Brayton and Goole line more than counterbalanced the shortness
of the distance by the other. Besides affording greater facilities
for; the accommodation of traffic to the towns in the west, it was
also a less expensive line.
By the CH/mimes—Assuming the superiority of the gradients
en the Brayton and Goole line, and the shorter distance of three
miles by the Wakefield, Pontefract, and Goole line, there would,
its his opinion, be very little difference in point of time in going
by either line from Goole to Bradford.

GROUP X.
LONDON AND YORK LINE.

The Committee, to whose investigation the merits of the seve.
ral lines comprel.ended in what is called " Group X," and which
enumerates no fewer than seven distii.ct lines of railway, assem.
bled this day, in Committee.room No. 8, at about half-past twelve
o'clock. and resumed the hearing of evidence as to the merits of
the London and York projection; but although this is now the
middle of the fifth week that the Committee have been sitting, for
six days in each week, and four hours and a half each
day, the case appears to be about as distant hom its close as it
was four weeks ago. The position in which it now stands is
shortly this :—The traffic evidence was put a stop to on Friday
last, at the request of the various counsel fur the competing lines,
upon the ground that the traffic tables were so numerous, so long,
so minute, and so difficult to he understood, that the time allowed
the Learned Gentlemen for the study of them was so short
as to render it impossible that they could make them-
selves sufficiently familiar with their contents as to proceed
with the crcee.examination of them to their owlt satisfaction or
with justice to their elients.

The Committee then entered upon the engineering evidence;
but even in this, toe, there is a species of hiatus, inasmuch as the
opposing Counsel called for certain tabular statements, setting forth
the length, width, depth, and expense of certain cuttings, which
the witness, Mr. Cubit t, was unable to furnish until
yesterday. What remained then of that class of evidence was
proceeded with, and closed yesterday; then came on the testi-
mony of the valuators, and It is now proceeding ; and when
that has closed then the competing Company's Coun-
sel resume theq cross-examination on the traffic tables ;
and if an idea of the length of that cross-examination may be
formed from the vastness of the n.aterial that is to furnish it,
it .s impossible to say to what period it may not be
protracted; and when that has closed, then comes on the
speeches of Counsel in summing up the case they conceived
they have made out, to warrant the Committee in de-
claring that the preamble of their Bill has been proved; then,
after that comes the speech of the Counsel in laying before the
tribunal the meths of the case of a competing line; then follows
the evidence in support of that statement, the cress-examination
of the witnesses, the summing up, and the reply ; and then the
same round of speeches, witnesses, cross-examinations,
and replies of the various other competing lines, the
claims for compensation &c. &c., and so it will go on, ad hilinitum.
before the Committee can bring their minds to bear on the vast
mass of testimony they have heard, pour et ronire, with a view of
declaring whether or not the preamble of the Bill for the
London and York scheme has been proved; and all this must be
gone through and disposed of before the Committee can take into
consideration any one of the other lines attached to Group X.

The first witness called to-day was
Mr. William Simpson, land-valuer. He was called to prove
the value of the land on that portion of the line from
Bawtry to Doncaster, and Doncaster to Wakefield. The quantity
of land proposed to he,:taken in was 355 acres, and he had esti-
mated the value at 53,555/. ISs Bd.
Mr. Paver valued the land between Doncaster and York. The
quantity of land to be taken up was 347 acres, and he had esti-
mated the value at 14,5311.

Mr, ititn,worth handed in tab!ei of the tolls received on the
Fcrilykti and Witham Navigation,,

The Rev. Mr. Silitnorp was called to woe e the advantages that
would result b.) both parties by the a; rangements me.de between the
two Navigation Comparies and the London ano Y.,rk t7onipany

At the close of the examina• on of the wi, riess, the crosi-
examinat.on of the goods' traffic witnesses wa, resumed, and occu-
pied the Committee to its rising. The object of it was to
show that the tables had not been formed on correct data, and that
the assumed traffic between the places stated, such as Lincoln and
Boston, Sheffield and Hull, Gainsbo ough and Hull, &c., as exist-
ing at present, and which it was alleged would be transferred to the
London and Yorkshire, had been exaggerated.
At the conclusion of this witness's evidence, the Committee
adjourned at half.past five o'clock.

SUE—COMMITTEE ON STANDING ORDERS.
This Committee assembled at three o'clock. Present, Sir J. Y.
Buller, Mr. Aldasn, Mr. Brotherton, and Mr. Broadley.
YORE AND NORTH MIDLAND RAILWAY,
GOOLE BRANCH.
(ADDITIONAL PIIOVISIONS )
In this case the standing orders were declared to have been corn.
plied with.
cArannximE AND FURY RAILWAY.
Standing orders complied with.
LIVERPOOL AND MANCHESTER RAIL-
WAY-THE NORTHERN AMALGAMATION.
In this case it was found that the notices in the Gault, were de.
fective in one trivial point —The Committee reported accordingly.

(TUESDAY.)
GROUP I)D.
IMPORTANT DECISION.

THE CALEDONIAN, THE GLASGOW, DIM-

PRIES AND CARLISLE RAILWAY.

[Part of the following was omitted in our yesterday's Morning
Edition.]
The Committee re-assembled this mot ning at twelve o'clock,
and shortly after proceeded to the consideration of the proposed
new branch from the Dumfries line through the Delvine-pass.
Mr. Iliunsau called on Mr. Miller, the engineer, to explain to
the Committee the nature and route of the intended branch. He
exhibited a plan and section of the proposed line and explained to
the Committee the course of the branch. The survey had been
male in a couple of days, and if longer time were allowed a more
correct and a better line would be obtained, and he had no doubt
that by extending the point of separation further south, a more
favourable gradient might be obtained. There was a gradient of 1
in 75 in a tunnel of two miles in length. It was pro-
posed to deviate from the Dumfries line a little to
the north of Carron bridge, and carry its termination to a place
called Elvine Foot. The distance between these two points was
1 b miles, and of that portion there was a plane of 5i miles long,
on a gradient of 1 in 75, and another plane of 4 miles in length,
where there was a gradient of I in 90, which no doubt could be
improved to 1 In 100, by carrying the point of departure farther
south. There would be also a tunnel 2 miles long through the
rock, the strata of which was composed of greywhacke. He had
estimated the cost of the tunnel at 401. per yard, and considered it
a fair value. The total cost of the tunnel would be 140,0001.
Comparing the proposed branch with a similar length on the Cale-
donian line, on the south side the gradient would be as 1 in 70, 1
in 75. lin SO, and lin 100. On the north side they would be
as 1 in 150, and lin 100. There would be curves at each end
of the tunnel, averaging from half a mile to a mile in radius, and
neither of these would be objectionable in a tunnel with a
double line. If more time for further inspection of the locality were
given, a shorter line, and a less curved tunnel, could be obtained,
and it would not be necessary to introduce more severe gradients.
Neither would the execution of the works take up more time. He
had no doubt, from his experience as an engineer, that an easier
line might be obtained if more time were given. The whole
estimate of the expense of executing the 15 miles of railway
through the pass was 315,0001. It appeared that the saving,
in point of expense, as compared with the construction of that por-
tion of the Caledonian line extending from Elvan-foot to Carlisle,
taking the proportion of Mr. Locke's estimates, amountei to
512,0001.
On cross-examination by Mr. Cocxnnnse, Mr. Miller said he had
instructed Mr. Blythe to make a survey of the Delvine-pass last
week. A survey of the ground had been executed last year, but
the section was confined to the turnpike road through the pass.
He had not given this up in despair, and he should prefer it if he
had the choice of a line to Edinburgh. The original gradient had
been lln 70, but it had subsequently been altered to 1 in 75. The
height of the mountain through which th e tunnel passed was 1,150
feet above the level of the sea, and is the highest summit on the
line.

In reply to a question by Mr. HILDYARD, the witness said that
additional distance on the proposed branch, as compared with the dis-
tance between Carlisle and Elvanfoot, was from nine to ten miles.

Mr. Blythe stated he had proposed the plans and sections which
Mr. Miller had explained to the Committee, and perfectly agreed
with Mr. Miller as to the practicability of making the proposed
branch, but thought that it was susceptible of improvement.
Mr. COCK➢URN then called Mr. Locke, the engineer for the
Caledonian line, to give evidence. He said he had sent down
several gentlemen last week to survey the pass, and read a letter
of instructions which he had transmitted for their guidance
in making the survey) from which it appeared they
were not to confine their investigations to the line
already made out, but to examine generally the district, and to
make allowances for having engineering works. A distance of
10 miles in the direct line would be lost by taking the branch
through the Dolvine.pass, and there would be several other strin.
gent objections to the scheme. One of the principal disadvantages,
as compared with the Caledonian line, was the necessity of having
a tunnel. Ho considered the curves in the tunnel were
highly objectionable, and taking also the circumstance of the
gradient being 1 in 75 into view, there was no doubt this passage
through the tunnel would be attended with great inconvenience,
if not with danger. He was of opinion that the tunnelling could
not be executed for less than 501. per yard. The increased ex.
pense of working the line the whole distance to Edinburgh would
be ten per cent. The proposed detour would not, in his opinion,
afford any corresponding advantages to the great inconvenience and
expense that would be incurred, and would destroy the objects of
the Caledonian Railway as a direct trunk line into Scotland
Mr. Foster, mining engineer, deposed that se had had consi-
derable experience in mining affairs, and was satisfied, from the
peculiar nature of the strata through which the proposed tunnel in
the Delvine would pass, that its construction could not be estimated
at less than 601. per yard.

Mr. M'Phee, who had surveyed the intended branch, entirely
corroborated Mr. Locke's evidence.
Mr. Pare was then called to show the influence which the con-
struction of the Delvine branch would have on the general traffic of
the trunk line.
The evidence on both sides having been closid,

The CirLIRMAN said he had been desired by the Committee to
state, as the present inquiry had been made to afford them suffi-
cient ir,formati n in arriving at a proper decision, that they
wished to express their satisfaction at the creditable manner in
which the engineers on either side had conducted their surveys,
and at the ready willingness that had been evinced by the diffe.
rent competing parties in falling in with the views entertained
by the Committee.
Mr. HILDYARD then proceeded to address the Committee on be-
helf the Edinburgh and Glasgow Railway Company. It was ob-
jected on their behalf that the forks on the Caledonian line had
been carried farther north in their point of divergence than had
been contemplated by the Commissioners appointed by Government
for the purpose alone of interfering with the traffic on the Edin.
burgh and Glasgow Railway. It would be recollected that the
dividends on that line since its construction did not ave-
rage more than five per cent., and it would also
be remem►ered by the Committee that the Union Canal Company
had been appointed carriers to compete with it. Two alterations
had been proposed by the parties for whom he appeared, which
consisted hr the formation of a junction at Croy and another at
Ratho, and it had been intimated by the Committee that this was
a good arrangement. Looking also at the differential arguments as
between the Caledonian and the Dumfries Railway+ it would
be recollected by the Committee that a line had al.
ready been laid down to Kilmarnock and Dalkeith—that
Bill for making a line to Hawick would be read a third time this
very day. The preamble for makiug a railway from Kilmarnock
to Cumnock had been passed ; it could not in his opinion be pos
Bible for the Committee to entertain any doubt that the distances
between Hawich and Carlisle and Curaneek and Carlisle must
necessarily in a ♦ery short period be connected together. As re-
spected the effect of a line through the Delvine.pass, it was evident
that the whole traffic from north to month would be continued
from Canonbridge to Carlisle, including Dumfries an Annan. The
Learned Gentleman referred generally to evidence tendered by Mr.
Locke and Mr. Miller on the two proposed lines through the Del-
♦ine-pass. He also quoted from the report of the Commissioners,
to show that it was likely that only one line would afford a remu-
nerative profit through the south of Scotland, and concluded by
warning the Committee not to decide in favour of the Caledonian
line.
Mr. Coestinnx then rose and addressed the Committee on be-
half of the promoters of the Caledonian line. The main question
on which the decision of the Committee rested was, which line
afforded the greatest facilities and convenience as a direct trunk
line between London and the north of Scotland. The Railway
Commissioners and the Board of Trade had both .entertained the
subject, and in both of the reports that had been issued, the
Nithsdale Railway had been disapproved of, and the Caledonian line
had received the preference. It was, perhaps, a matter entitled
to some attention to consider how the public had been interested
in the two lines placed before them. On the Caledonian line there
was not a single dissentient landowner; and without detracting
from the merits of either line, it would appear that the promoters
of the Dumfries line were at present without any scheme for con.
fleeting Hawick with Carlisle, and the various contingencies
upon which such proposed communication depended, ren.
dered it unlikely that it ever would be made. As the
supposition of the making of the Hawick line depended
almost entirely on the Dumfries line, it was a question whether the
Hawick line would yield with the Dumfries line similar facilities of
traffic as the Caledonian. The ♦arious circumstances under
which the preamble of the Bill for the Hawick line had been
passed were th.n recapitulated by the Learned Counsel, and from
the severe nature of its gradients, curves, and tunnels, he contended
it could never be made available fur the accommodation of the
through traffic. If this was the fact, the case for the promoters
of the Dumfries line would tall entirely to the ground. Thus far
he had spoken on the comparative advantages of the lines to
Edinburgh, and the districts in that part of Scotland. As re.
garded Glasgow and Paisley, the difference in point of distance
between the lines was fully ten miles in favour of the Caledonian.
When it was said by the opposing party how important it was
that Dumfries should be on the train line, it should be remem-
bered that Dumfries was not a manufacturing town, and
that its connexion with London and Glasgow was not of Insuperable
importance. It was admitted that Dumfries was not on the main lines
but then its proximity to Glasgow and London was rendered as ad-
vantageous on the Caledonian line as on the competing line. As
to Annarr it had only a small population and but little commerce,
and from its situation on the Solway the navigation was rendered
exceedingly difficult, and there was no data on which to ground the
assumption that it would be an improving port, or that the Cr.ledo.
nian line should be rejected because it slid not accommodate it so
fully as the Dumfries line. It was ridiculous to suppose that pas.
sengers going from Carlisle to Liverpool would go by steamers from
Annan. No man in his senses would entertain the idea of
travelling north sixteen miles from Carlisle to Annan, to be con-
veyed by steam-boats to Liverpool, where a direct railway corn.
munication already existed between Carlisle and Liverpool, and
yet on the traffic.tables of the Dumfries it had been taken for
granted that passengers would go in this way, and the number of
passengers had been doubled. Another question. relative
to the communication between Scotland and the coast of
Ireland, and looking at the relative distances be-
tween Edinburgh and Glasgow, and the coast of Ire.
land, it was incontestably evident that the distance
by the Caledonian 1 ne was some fifty rules sherter than by the
Dumfries line. The Clydesdale branch was a very important one
when looked at in connexion with the Caledonian line, and would
bring in a great increase of traffic along the line. It was Unde-
niable that it was a matter of the greatest importance that there
should be no intervention of any obstacle in the free and through
traffic from north to south, and he contended that as regardel the
Glasgow junction, promoted by the Dumfries Company,
the greatest obstacles did exist on that junction, inas-
much as it was impossible for it to be made, according
to tl e evidence of Mr Vignelles, their own witness, There Was
nothing to be said in support of the Dumfries line, either as
regarded its facilites as a branch line, or its local accommodation.
A point, However, had been casually mooted by Mr Miller, which
had swelled into a considerable object, the intention of which was
to embarrass the Caledonian line in its fundamental principle of
forming a direct main trunk line. He alluded to the proposed branch
through the Delvine-pass, and contended that, from the unfavour-
able nature of the gradients in the tunnel, there was
every probability of a catastrophe of the most appalling
character frequently occurring, and there would be a loss of at
least ten miles in the direct distance to Edintinrgh and Glasgow.
The Learned Counsel then read an extract from the report of the
board of Trade, to show that in every instance where a railway