The Sun.
London, England, 1820-08-14 00:00:00

nuTtN,

NIINtrITS of EVIDENCE tdmire.toilteTlMllElt TitAbt,
tatiett torfJre the stil.F.cr commit•FEE of the 1-100$1%
of LORDS, aprointkql to iortoire into the Nle:to. exteitti-
lug and Netitring the FOlthiON Titkub: of the COUN-
, .T.la) and to Report to the Rouse.

(Continued from our Paper of Friday twit.)
Pie Maetis, 13° Anil, 18'206
The Marquess of LANS' DOWSE ht the Chair.

Order of adjournment read.
EDWARD ELLICE, Esq.a Member of the House
of Commons, is Called in, and examined as fol-
lows :
ilavr yutt any connections with Canada?-Yes, very con-
siderable.

h it as a merchant, or as a Lunt Owner both cha-
racters.
_•

Are you acquainted with the arrangement of Duties which
gives an advantage to the Canada .Timbet in the British
Market ?—Yes.

Do you considi:e that nrrangement ns of great advantage
to the Canada Landholder ?—I do not consider that arrange-
ment is.heneficial to' the Canada Land Owner; hccatt.e the
value ot the Timber (I speakhoth of yel low and red pine Timber
'lialtieulitrly) sold at Quebec, does notexcemihy much the ex-
pellee and labourof procuring it for ; and the Utt•
mula Landholder, therefore, gets little or uut
hing for the
Thuber itself. /

Is there not an advantage arising to the Land O►ttter from
the circumstance of hi, labour living cml.loYeil in Cutlid>;
Timber during the Winter ?—I should say, very littie• Then'
are many other purposes to which the hbour could be applied
very beneficially, besides preparing Timber far shipment ;
particularly in clearing the Lands and in burning the Timber
for making pot :liilol3, or in cutting Timber fur fuel, which is
a great occupation.
—ls the Thither cut by the labourers employed in agriculture
at other times, or by whom is it cut ?—The Timber for Ex-
pariatiiin is principally cut by a class of ptrsons called Timber
Cutters, who cut it during the NVinter season, and are
cnt-
plored during the Summer in rafting it dawn to lite port of
slripment, and very seldom by persons cntvloyed in the agri-,
culture of the Country.

the-extended- demand for Canada Timber, in conse-
quence of the arrangement of I)ulies, occasioned a great
-number of people to relol t to should have some
difficulty in answering that question, because I have nut been
in Canada for the last two or three yeats, but •1 should cer-
tainly think that many ut the immense number of persons
Who have emigrated there lately, may have been employed in
preparing Timber fur shipment; but I ,caiinet coiterive that
'Alas formed any part of the inducements those persons have
had to emigrate, front this Count ry. _
Is !bete not a period of the sear during which those per-
sons employed in cutting and preparing the Timber have not
occupation in that line?—During: a :very short period of
the year. The Timber is gei;er'ally cut in the Antonio, when
the 'leaves fall ; and as soon its they can- niake 'Winter
Snow Roads, it is hauled. ow' of the Woods to the water
side, and when at the water side,, it is there, squared and
prepared for rafting, Th.e Smuttier season is generally
employi.iF in Carrying it down in rafts to ( tiebee; and
there is very little intermediate space of. time between those
employments for, the persons,so viigitgel to turn their labour
to any other occupation. .
Are the Committee to understand, that those employed in
cutting and 'carrying Timber .are .a perfectly :distinct class
from those employed in the Agriculture ut the Country
:The persOns employed its cutting Timber for Shipinetit are, '
generally speaking, a distinct
.class ,front those rittp!tyetl ill
`Apiculture, although, certainly, .suite of the Farmers mu-
fti/A' part of their time during the Winter in cutting Timber,
Huth td'slipply the Itafts-mett and for fire Wood' for the great
To-wits, such asMoutreal and
From your ktiowiedge of the state of Canada, do you be-
lieve 'any alteration of the .duties, that Wtiuld admit Baltic'
Timber upon equal terms with t_ anada 'flintier into the En-
glish: market, would be a great loss to that province ?
The questions which the Committee have put to we before,
i--giiittf solely 'lir. 'my knOwledge as a Landed Proprietor;
certajnly the province in a hurl cantile sense would sustain
some loss, because the great expenditure of the shipping
sent' to transport the Wood to England, if 'taken-away front
the province, would to that extent be a eonsider.rhie
but the .baud Owner mould sustain very little l'o,s if DO
Pine 'finaber of any deseriptionViis shippeirfroin the ipee.
There di'stinct mil,' in ihis'respeZt,' between 'limber
and Oak, because how the grsatvr price of Oak "rinaO,rt
some part of its value is derived by the Landed Proprir tor.—
There.are also considerable Establishment) formed in Canada,
-which biter:" brew ticiie.treo-ttiaVed lip' 'the :-.Ystent Uf duties
which hums prevailed of kite,. grit) which tie entirely
ruined by the sudden suspension of the protection now
l;tauttiet to the Canada Tiniber:' These Estatilislnnelits are
principally at Quebec. I should su.:gest, that if any loss were
sustainvd !laity ;tit eration of the duties upon Timber preju-
dicial to the Caitada Trade or to the Canada Land Owner, it
'Might be'ititsply 'compensated bythe-inlitil.Sion-int`ti this' Onto.:
try of Wheat growth in. Canada, without rtstriettuu.
average quantity of tki;heitt exported from Canada cannot have
exceeded. above 25,000 quarters in a year, and the seastuauf
expottation lasting only four months it is impossible some-
-6'loes to stake advantage' of the averages ish this Country,
Elltiiig to the rate at which ‘l'lleat trout Canada is now per-
Milted tube iniPoeted into England. The quality tut Canada
Wheat is ;118!) I cry interim, and the expense ut •transporting
'it to• England, exceeding VuS. a quarter, may be an adequate
yrotect ion to the British Grower:- ,
Can yOu state what proportion the quantity of rid bears to
the quantity,of White Pinc Lant not ihetilininted with
the Timber Trade, otherwise than as a Land owner in Ca-
nada. .The_White Piue ng t lagest-qua ntlt
'nearest to the Elvers on which it is floated down fur shipment
was priliCipallY shipped' upon the first demand for American
Timber. haviv been found objectionable in the
Ist-art:cis Of this Country, 'the attention of the Timber
Growers was then directed to heel Pine Timber, and consider-
able supplies of it have since been obtained, and are now
,principally sent to this Country. The Trade in Pine
limn Canada had its origin in the great scarcity of Timber,
and. the apprehension Of• -atotal c'essation of supply front the
Baltic, about the year IBOS. Those ,apprehensions having
been 'etpressed by all persons 'interested in the surely -of
Timber fur the :different purposes to. which it.is applied in
this Country, and particularly from the litiers COrit-
wall. it Las considerably. increased by tile protection
,which
from time to time has been given to it-, until it has arrived at
its present extent; helieve;tlirst to these causes 1 tor
want of employment of the before eniploye4 in the
(t'r'ansport Service, for the last two-years', has 'very Materially
Thel,lnatit it ies of- Pine -Timber exported from Ca-
nada, having been nearly trebled since the year Is and
the Shipping cleared out front Canada , having doubled
in the • period. I believe all the eXportable. coninto=
tiei vxclosive of Timber, utig,lit have Imen
.tdriat: frontported ill about 12,000 thus of shipping,
mid the' whole' quantity of Shipping clearZd out from Que-
bec, exceeded 150,000 tons.
Do you nut believe that the expect:Slim] of some alteration
In ingC intendtd to be made iii the duties, ham occasioned se
spectilatidn,' tend a great'intreriseitif•t“'impor-
Rowi ditringt lie last, two years should.; cectainly think it
bas to sonic extent.

Can -you state the present amottlit of the population of
Canada ?—Nu, I cannot. It very Mitch altered since
ti.t4 COI-miry, that 1,00111:d hc taleunst at a:4w .0
State it exactly.
lobryOur jiropetllt ip-Tpiter or I.4lteei•
perry in both. The izreatest part is in Latter Canada.
Tu4i, have sonic...Kt UpperCanaitzt ?—Yes. •
iPAs,-V1P,.vY4101,1,,te.,- you have • been giving reference to the
pinperty tipper'or-LoWir Caliada? =The ass leis I hate
siven cfrxeitce to both proenn.:cs. . The. COnituittee are
aware ,that seare'eli'.atry earl he hrotight down from
any. Uppet-Catniefa, except by the Grand River, the
Rapids of St. Lawrence increasing very much the rise: ut
!winging Thither down. fly that navigation froth tipper ca-
nada, and of course the expense of it. All this pt:iticipally
retatti tli Knit TinitiCr;. Its Oak 'timber andr`Staves 'are of
greater importance, from the greater value they arc of to the
persons employed -111 that trade; and possibly some ;traitor*
lion of these time bc obtained in the Upper as ilb t .I‘.
- •
LoWer Prot inces.
YouttavF been xpeaking-part y of the (..;anada Tim ;
the Committee wish to know whetlte!. tin. re is any very large
qUainity uf• Tinibe`r which you to eeiritc frbm ttt
North est pints ut the United States, and particaltilly. front
the pros ioce of New Yolk ?—1 am particularly_ intOrmed upon
that,sul6vct ; haviugconsiderableproperty- iu the state of New
I't) the CAnitilh tine; -ntiif I know a e.oli'sickr=
able,quantity of Oak Timber is-utotally scut- Itthe Ntiiv,ig"°""
front Lake t_ ham plaitie into the Hirer St. Lawrence but I
am quite errta'itt. that the itatuti• of the Nat ittutinotietwer"
L he Champlailie and the River St. LaWretice avant
rendetrit impossible:, wit lit any prospect .of •rfintitirratiwt..lol'
persons employed iti the Timber 't cadets, convey Pine:timber
situ . .
Chwitht-hv't hat' Zlotiveyatiee.! • •'
• You tura .1 he Reit Pine ?-
1 11/Call 114.41 l'itte as well as the
‘Vlitte. The rapids in thl: River flow-ins from Lake "(Annuli-

atd Wt:deVitigliliiiigoot, I 44641144
,hat a coad deal at ,romidless jealousy has existed in Canisaa
with respect to the importation of artic a. of this descriptil
from the neighbouring- States, which are principally suPPII.,
from Canada with British .Manufactures in payment; and la`
more Trade there is carried through that Channel, the 'norre
it must be for the interest both of the Province and of -tins
Country. •
Might it not afford a compensation to import through that
Channel the Reit Pine from the United States, from its stt:
periur value, when it Would not do to import the White
Certainly, to the extent of the difference of value between 08
Nat qualities of Pine Timber.
Is that the only channel by which it comes ?—Yets, except
by the River Sti Lawrence from Lake Ontario.
Does a large quantity come from Lake Ontario ?—/slo ere
at
quantity, because the rapids are exeessively dangerous.
Yale have said that the alteration in the Corn Laws whia •
you have mentioned, would he a full equivalent to Canati
for taking off the protecting Duties on the Baltic Timber;
and at the. same time you have said, that that you conceivti
would be hut a very small matter either to. England or VI
Canada; f heti you mean to say, that the taking off of thes6,
Duties would lie a matter of very small importance to Else,
laud either have already stated to the Committee, that
my evidence has been principally directed to the Landed In=
I crest of Canada. The Commercial Interest would undoubt,‘
edly stiffer to the extent of throwing ouf of employment the
various Establishmeots which have been formed for the pugs
pose of Carrying on this Trade. 'the Landed Interest of Ca-
nada has never been Materially interested in it, and the sug-
,estiort which I ventured to offer, was in the expectation that
if the prottetiod was taken from the Canada Timbers the,
labourers elnplOved in that Trade might deride their time to
Agriculture, and that a free exportation of Corn to this'
Country won'd hold out the best prospect of no loss accruiait
to such persons by the change of their employments.
Then dei not you consider what you have suggested, as a
Boom to the Landed Proprietor, at the expence of the Trad-
ing Community ?-1 cannot conceive that any Bonus intend-
ed to one class of persons in Canada, would not materiatlye;
if not equally almost, benefit the-ather, because the produce
arising from the extension of Agriculture would be a muclt,
better means of carrying on Trade, even to a greats r'exteltt•
than the means derived from the exportation of Timber.
Do not you lielieve that won't] be an immediate injury to,
those persons employed in the cutting of Timber, in tht/Se.
EitatqlollllCptS to which you have alluded have alreadi
stated, that certainly those persons who have farmed Est3'
htishments with a view to the continuance of this Trade, must
be marvrially injured front any alteration of the Duties.
Do not von believe it would put ant of employment tkat
class of individuals who are employed in Lotting Tinit7er?---•
Stich persons would be much better employed, both
AllrOs their own comfort and interests, and as respects the
welfare of the Province its agricultural pursuits, than iii
this Trade.

You have stated, that the Trade; in Timber, as far a, t 146
owner or' the w,il is concerned, is of very little importance
Very little itideed.

Then the principal object, hild which gives is value to the
TimbtrTeade, is the labour employed in felling the tree am,
preparing it for Market ?-1 have already stated that the la-
hour so employed is the sole value of tliss.Trade to the Cowl'
try; 1 may say it is so with respect to Pine Tauber, and
great delree with respect to Oak Timber.
What is the Mode of employment that you would substitute
for theie men who would be pia out of their present empler
meta by the alteration of the Duties?-1 shuald shy, that the
class of persons employed in cutting, l'intlier was 'the wor"
part 'of the POpulation of Canada; and as there could be 11",
doubt of their finding, employment in Agricultural pirsalts•,
if the Timber Trade of 'Canada was entirely annihilatedt_
flii injury Ciitild either be sustained by themselves or the
triunity by such a change. This answer relates to the labourer..
employeli in cutting the Timber, and bringing it tee Nktrkrt•
1 will add, that I have already stated, that the persons basin"'
Establishment; funned in Canada, for conducting this trail"
must sustani.an irremediable injury by any alte'ratiou th3t,
can take tlace. .-
YOu have stated, that the value of the Timber to the
Vidual Owner is very small indeed ?—Yes.

And that the great value of the 'fimber is in the labour te''
ployed upon it ?—Nearly the whole value, of Pine Tinibcr
in the labour.
Is it not ►hen on account of the value of the Timber, th"
the tree is cut down?—lt .account of the value of the
Timber to the person who cuts it down ;'but net on acconot
of its value to the Proprietor.
he itotKr is cut down as'a means of employine, Capita
with profit ?—Yes. •

ting
;11,!,e1,,-liiil.:ltliitreliettl,l4,',tr:o).
t:rl,i)leii.:tthe sake of
value.
inducementroifsti:li: 0 i
,fiodruc,t.ut
small object. In btioging the' land ‘l‘.j'dY
Timber of ail kinds, cut down, is- generally burnt into a.shc"
from which pot and pearl ashes ate made, and very !ink tl,e
is otherwise made of it, 'except for file wood. Sometime,:
there does trot happen to be'inie stick iii hundred acres of.
land fit for'exportation, in particular districts of the:Count-TY'
Then nobody cots down trees in Canada, -as a first steo t"r•
bringing the- land into cultivation?—Terry are ceitainlycl
as tie first step for bringing land into cultivation. ""
disposed of as I have mentioned iii the ',receding ansorl
and sometimes to get rid of the Timber of the wrest is co'
tirely set on fire.
Then the getting•rid• of the Timber is the indispensublf
C
step towards cultivation ?—Yes. -
Do nut you conceive that trees would be cut down ,as the.
.
first step for improving the land, in whatever state the (Wilt'
were, relatively, between Use Baltic and Canada 'limber
before any Timber trade was carried on in Canada,
faint was cleared'ill some way'," td admit of the improveoseii'',
in Agriculture ; and it must continue to be cleared, %%bribe'
the 'Chillier is sold or not:
Then you think that the object of the clearing of the
would he a sintieient inducement for cutting the trees
suppose the whole of the present ditty on Baltic lloher
lie totetvoll-ssNlost assuredly. The cleariowof ine.Land
uo
very reunite Districts of Upper Canada, where Timber cA"all
of no use for shipment fur exportation, proceeds more
than it does even in Lower.tanada..
This question hating been ge•liet ally understood to-relateitt'
the whole of - the Province ut Canathi, does not your eridel::.;
go to shewt hat it relates. almost exclusively, or at least .
the greater part, to Lower Canada only
Lower Canada.
„041,re
Then .tlie;qnestion,under.. discussion, as far. the 1-1
Trade is Concerned,. is us you coliceive, a question 1rt0:.70.,
the States of the Baltic and Lower Callittlisily?-7-Illc .os
Fietors of 'limber in Coliada ate very little concerned itt
question,. which more. iintuedidtely relates tothe,gezteri,".
terests.ot the Navigation ot the Country.
Is any efo:nsiderabfe'- Capital rested in t hose- Estob;tsbn,4l
toerhicts'you hate aliludest, likely to sutf..r Row tae.allol4%i,a
of the .Droit-s' let Baltic Timber ?-I should say that the
about eight or ten settlements at Quebec, the liersolol:',,e*
rested in which have built Saw Mills and sent Steami;ilo
frobi-this-,Country for-that phrPosei and that caP". uftt .base,
tool. to 150,00ut. may have been vested altogether
Establishment.s.: .
etibl'
Do you, I:1.'1)k any part of that Capital could he citltv
fo other ptille,ses-?—A very small proportion of ir,a i;
:iii estrd iii fixed Establismounts.—The
directed to withdravi. •
(l'u lie continued.)

On Saturday last, in %%line Hart-lane, Tottenhant,
Lafly of Johu Teesdale, Esq. of Feuchureb-street, of litos
On the sl ;It !flown House, Hauls, the Lad).
tesereod Charlts Fox Wilmington, of a

' . . - .
t. - • NIA1(111
: Ott '.Wedtwitiay Inct, at
,-,iih-2,„„th, Li,,,tc„,nt-00414
Shyer, ti.ch,o luite Aline, Sixuatil (lane ht (- ~t the lies,
.11thlos Alerttard; Itecter--uf • --Cuthhettorv, in the
CututtY
Sotnerst.t. , „„ del-
_
Ou Ihe 1-9. th inst., at St. Matthew's, Friday-street, -11e7.: to
Whl soh Law, Esq., of- the East littlia Ottiti.:lll.!* ''1.5.,1-i It°'
Miss Eli.',4l;etti Itrohlanlt
is, thicst daughter ut Mr- ",.e7
wank, ut Chettpside.
___-----------7'

I)IED. b itise ford'
BAPONESS Lu-FoRD.-011 Fiiday last died, at her iiifor-'.
Grosvenor-place, fleni 'mita Nina' Powi,i, Baroness broom
nee Ladyship was the hviress ut Rotitit Vernon Attatiii re
Esq. and iiiarricd to Loed Ltlforti in I:T7. The the jaloilf
mains of this amiable Lath. are to he lit.l,oSited i" t
a
m oosoletoo :11-I.iliortf. in Northamptonshire. ' tbe 9-
011:F004,10st, iti Ler apatime,,ts in Sisitztifiehls, i.." Nictle
year of her aNe, 'Mrs. Elizabrth Nielisun, telict of Al ''
-of
las Nicks: t; of Yoak, printer..
On the IP,',h of.Ttine. on his •,i Pq.'
On tindieeitti• tilt., of apoplexy,' John liaris4-e' nci.
Stlikeslx.
'lathes Afin:ti. 'Esq. younest son or the LordChiet
_......1
sitmer,ot the dory Court, lidinhurgh
passage. from Renierar.aeo. 0,

gr
LONI,J.ON: Priilled by J. IL CARS'
_ l4,:n 29f •
Orrip)1111-6freut, Queen-square; • d iu•Are; an r jai,
.lu.:, South :o.lton-street, a" Of
'clice, No. 112 Stu,' I .1 Ativotiscincol*,
(post-pai4l) must be. iaarclitd.