Star.
London, England, 1830-02-24 00:00:00

cry and the consequence of that was, the depreciation of the sugar
(It the West India planters. Sow, with a duty of 275. per cwt.
win - the price re ceivril by the planter fell from 63s to 235. per cwt.
Mt his btst sugar. was it possible for him to go on ? He would not
. air tr that rart of the subject that respected the price and duty
I. t'pon an average. the West India planter, after 27r'. duty,
d .site: the various other deductions to which his sugar was sub-
j.,- did nuj, receive above 12a. per cwt. and even at that price he
F.an not an extensive market. He hoped the house would consider
..filar pays of the subject. If we were determined to hold the trade
st.gar in competition with other nations, we could not suffer taxa.
tic r ti the amount it at present exists.
?)r. HART DAVIS was understood to say that there was
r.s..t depreciation in colonial property. Some internal regulations
et t.ned still necessary—such as a better mode of registering
• '.e.rs The planter, under the present regulations, found great
difficulty in removing his slaves from one plantation to another.
Ile would Trcoasmend to Government to form some new plan of
,rvtiry.
Mr BRIGHT said that the West India planters, and the whole
:wily connected with them, were in a state of unparalleled distress.
They oaght now to be viewed in a favourable light, when they came
to parliament to ask for a removal of the burden of taxation which
pressed them down. If a boon of this kind could be extended to any
class of men without injury to the government, or to the revenue,
lie really believed that no measure could effect so much good as the
removal of these burdens front the colonial proprietors. If the colo-
nies were expected to go on in the work of internal improvement
-ind reformation, they ought to be met in a spirit of conciliation.
He called on the house to look with a favourable eye upon the
present application. (Hear, hear.) In Scotland and Ireland the
tinny upon West India produce was such, that the great body of
the people were prevented from consuming any of it. He hoped
shatfthe petition would be received by the house in the spirit of
conciliation.

On the question that the petition be brought up, being put,
Mr. BERNAL said, he had not risen before, because he had
hoped that what had fallen from other hon. members would have
elicited something 'tom the Chancellor of the Exchequer. After
the fair and manly way in which the noble lord had brought for-
ward the subject, he did think that the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer ought to state whether the West India body were or were
not entitled to receive relief. Since 171)2 the price of sugar had ne-
ver been so low as it was at present. During the war, the West
Indian proprietor did not complain, as he had no tight to complain,
that he was taxed towards defraying the expenses of the war, but
the additional duties unposed during the war was put on by a kind
of compact, that they were only to continue while the war lasted,
And that they would be removed when the war should be brought to
a conclusion. In 1815 peace came, but, from that time to the
present, the government had not said a word about reducing the du-
ties on sugar--(Hear, hear.) Then, as to rum, did not Lord
Goderich,. when Mr. Robinson, say that if the additional duty of
Is. Gd. on rum was found to be a prohibitory or oppressive duty,
the West India body would have a fair claim upon parliament
for the remission of tke duty ? The duty on home spirits was 7s.
the duty on West India spirits was Bs. Gd. the duty on Irish
and Scotch spirits was 2s. 10d. In addition to these circum-
stances, the West India body had to compete with sugars brought
from places in which the slave trade existed in full vigour. lie
thought it ,very hard that while this country was paying from
20.000/. to 25,000/. a year, for mixed commissions—that while oar
vessels were cruising on the coast of Africa to capture slave-trading
vessels, and that when we had spent 2,000,0001. in gifts and loans
to Spain, Portugal, and other places, in order to put a stop to this
traffic, the slave trade should nevertheless be still carried on to so
great an extent, that the West Indian produce should be driven out
of the continental markets. He contended that this was a case worthy
the attention of the government and of the house, and he did hope
that he should not call in vein upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer
to say if the ministers had any remedy in contemplation. Upon one
other point he begged the attention of the government. He believed
that there was a treaty on foot, and not yet perfected, with a foreign
power, from whose markets our colonists had hitherto been excluded ;
and it appeared to hint that the treaty in question furnished a fair
opening for removing this restriction, and doing something for our
colonies.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, he begged
to assure the house, that if be had forborne offering any observations
on this subject, his forbearance had not arisen from any want of re-
spect towards the hon. members who had addressed the house, nor
from any want of sympathy with the distress under which the West
India body laboured. He was sure, however,that the house would ace,
that as a sense of duty had withheld him from giving any information
respecting the views of the government on the subject of reduction
of taxation, so also the same sense of duty must restrain him from
um explosion of any opinion on a subject like this, on the occasion of
we presentation of a petition. indeed, he thought that when pets.
tons relative to duties which weighed upon particular classes were
presented to the house, there could not be a course more inconve-
nient than to make the presentation of such petitions the opportunity
of promulgating the views of government, and of going into the
consideration of all those various circumstances upon which at last
the conduct of government must be founded. On the present occa-
siou, in particular, such a course would be highly inconvenient, be-
cause the sugar duties were always brought forward annually ; and
that, therefore, would be the proper time for explaining the views of
government. For these reasons he had forborne giving the house
and his hon. friend the satisfaction which his hon. friend required.
Thus much, however, he would say, namely—that he was not one
of those who were insensible to the value of our colonies, or the im-
portance of them to the mother country. When the colonists were
distressed he sincerely sympathised with them, and should always be
anxious to relieve them, as far as was consistent with the general
interests of the country.
Mr. W. SMITH believed that he could diaprove "many of the
statements which had been made, but that he did not wish any de-
cision to be taken on the subject without inquiry ; and as the ques-
tion then before the house was merely that the petition should be
brought up, he should abstain from any observations at present.
Mr. C. GRANT did not rise to prolong this discusion, but he
wished to remind the house, that it had been his lot in the last two
sesions of parliament to propose that the duties :on sugar should be
reduced. His opinion of the justice of such motions had been con-
firmed by the arguments of hon. members respecting other duties on
the produce of labour, by experience on this particular subject, and by
the melancholy state of the West India interest. He had waited to
learn what were the views of government on this subject, and on
the reduction of taxation generally, before he renewed his motion
this session; and he was willing now to hear the statement of the
chancellor of the exchequer upon the reduction of taxation gene-
rally, before he called the attention of the house to his views re-
specting the reduction of the sugar duties. He hoped, however, that i
his right hon. friend would not take it ill if he did not wait until the
annual duties were brought forward, because they generally came
under the notice of the house at so late a period of the session that
there would be no time for the consideration which the subject de-
served.—(Hear.)
Mr. HUME was sure that the subject could not be left in better
hands than than those of the bow gentleman who had just sat down.
—(Hear, hear.) His hon. friend -below him (Mr. W. Smith) had
said that he could disprove the statements which had been made on
this subject. What were those statements ? That the duties bad
risen and prices had fallen. Could his hon. friend disprove that? He
eras sorry to hear this taken up as a colonial subject, for it was not
a colonial, but a national subject.—(Hear, hear.) He had urged
that the shutting out of East India sugar was an injury to the
country and no benefit to the West India body; and so it was.
Let both sugars come in, and let the duties be reduced to an ad
valorem rate; and with this system be would have both trades as
free as possible, and let the colonists have the power of sending
their produce to any port they pleased. Our absurd regulations
in this respect tended to impoverish, instead of enriching, our
colonists.
Mr. HUSKISSON, said, he would not now touch upon tbe se-
veral important topics connected with this question,because a mere it
opportunity would occur for going into it, and because another ha-
pow tam subject was then:about to be brought before the house. Asa
member for a town deeply interested in the condition of our West
India colonies, be must state that the question was one which ought
to attract the serious attention of government, for the claims of those
colonies on its consideration were very strong. Among the many
classes in the community which felt the pressure of the general dis-
tress there were none who suffered more severely than those who
were embarked in the colonial trade.
The Marquis of CIIANDOS said that he had no intention of
taking ministers unawares on this question. So fu twin it, he would
say that the subject was before them for the last four months.
The petition was then brought up and read.
On the question that it do lie on the table,
ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE IN TIIIE COLONIES.

that the want of representatives for thaw towns le so great, that
Parliament ought to admit them at ones, without waiting for the
vacancy ; and till we do admit them in this manner there is little
hope that they will have representatives in this house. It is now
more than ten years ago that I proposed, when any borough
was disfranchised on account of corruption, its place should
be filled up in this house by representatives from some of the
larger towns. That proposition was met by the ministers of the
sown in the fairest manner, but notwithstanding ten years
have since elapsed without a single step being taken for the
accomplishment of that object ; and on any future occasion of
this kind let the house consider whet arc the difficulties that
stand in the way. The first difficulty is In giving proof of the
corruption sufficient to satisfy the members of the Louse ; and
when that has been done, we are met in this house with the
conundrum of the right honourable gentleman, that when a par-
ticular county, has not more than eight representatives, we
must not transfer the franchise from that county to any other
place. But suppose we have been fortunate enough to get over
the difficulties in this house, and that we are able to carry up our
Bill to the other, we shall find that in that House there are suspi.
clone and fears of any measure cf this kind ; and the Bill being
one with a double object, the one to punish former delinquency, and
the other to till up a vacancy by sending Members from large
towns,—those who object to the latter can lay their fingers on the
first, say they are not satisfied with the proof of corruption, and
throw out the bill without the appearance of opposing it on
the other ground. This has already been the case; and thus
that plan which I once hoped would amend the state of this
House, has proved to be one which does but perpetuate the evil.
Such, then, are the difficulties, almost insuperable, placed in the
way of this or any other specks of reform. I look in vain for any
other mode; and 1 therefore lay before the house humbly, but
strenuously, the question, whether the claims of the large towns are
not so recent, and do not press so urgently upon us as to call on us
to go up to the House of Lords, not with a mixed bill of penalty
and investiture, but with one in which we shall make our stand on
the brood principles of general representation which, if al.
lowed, our object will be gained ; if denied, it will appear on
what ground the dispute between the two houses rally rested
—(hear, hear.) I am afraid that in going into proof of the
changes which the different great towns have undergone,
I shall be obliged to trouble the house at some length, but
the importance of the subject must be my excuse. I will
begin with calling the attention of the house to the great increase
in the population of these towns since the commencement of the
last century. The population of Manchester, in 1708, was 8,000;
in 1723, it was 27,000: in 1791, it was 70,000 ; and in 1821, it
was 133,000. That part of the environs of Manchester, which 1 in-
chided as part of the borough In my bill for transferring the fran-
chise from Penryn to that town, if added to the other portion, will
make up a population of 186,000 souls. The increase in Leeds and
Birmingham has gone on in a similar manner. The population of
Leeds, in 1774, was 17,000; in 1801, it was 53,000; and in 1821,
it had risen to 83,000. The population of Birmingham, at the time
of the Restoration, was 5,000; in 1700, it was 15,000 ; in 1781, it
amounted to 50,000; in 1791, it had reached 73,000 ; and in 1821,
it was as high as 106,000. I ask, Sir, whether this great in.
crease in the population does not lead the house to acknowledge
that some change ought to take place with respect to the manner in
which the interests of these towns are represented here? But I will
go on yet a little further with respect to Manchester. .Having en.
quired into the rental of Manchester, I have found that the county
rate is raised upon a rental of 750,0001. I asked several ganktr.en
whose opportunities of information are extremely good, whether the
amount of property in and about Manchester might be safely esti.
mated at thirty millions, and I was told that that estimate would
be below the real amount. Of the extent of trade and popula-
tion in this town of Manchester, some idea may be formed from
the annual amount of the poors' rates—that amount being list Ism
than fifty.four thousand pounds. The annual freight on the canal
is not less than 300,000/. These two facts of themselves afford
the strongest proof, the most conclusive evidence of the wealth
and resources of Manchester. (Herr, hear.) Then we come to the
rail.road between that town and Liverpool; there is being es.
pended upon that rail-road annually :a sum of 55,0001. and it is
estimated that the whole amount required for completing that
work will be about 800.0001. To make that a good
and no one has any doubts of its being so—the trade bbeetwess doe
two towns must be of an amount such as ought to entitle both to dap
highest consideration in the legislature. But the rate at which it has
been deemed advantageous to convey goods along this road, is in it.
self a matter of just surprise and congratulation. Sir, geode are 1e
be conveyed along the road with three times the expedition used Is
the conveyance of letters by the mail—(Hear, hear.) Of the science
and skill with which it has been executed, it is needless for me 141
trouble the house. One remarkable end interesting point abate
it is that within a tulle and a half of Liverpool it proceeds thew*
a subterraneous passage ; and that in other parts of it various
physical difficulties have been overcome. Manchester, too, has long
been famous for its philosophical Institutions; a most important
discovery was made by Dr. Bostock (we believe) in bleaching.
He was a member of that institution, and through the agency of that
body was the discovery made known, end carried into practical
operation. Thus do we see how advantageously the course of
philosophical discovery is made available to the purposes
and conveniences of ordinary life, when the general en-
lightenment which belongs to large manufacturing commu-
nities is acted on by the concentrated force of minds devoted
exclusively to science. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Dalton, also an in-
habitant of Manchester, is a name well known to science, and
which, with that I have already mentioned, and others—many
others, which It would take too much time to go through—
I say, these names add to the already strong claims of Manchester to
be represented in this house. But Manchester is the centre of a
great extent of country, populated by a great commercial and manu-
facturing community, engaged in the most important and flourishing
of the manufactures of`this „country, and is, therefore, the district
which most wants. slur is best entitled, to send representatives into
this house. I have said that the goods of Manchester are the most
important of our manufactures; the goods of Manchester are seen in
every part of the globe, to which a ship or any other mode of con-
veyance can penetrate. Yes—its goods are seen everywhere; but
in this house members to represent It have never appeared. (Hear,
bear.) The time has at length come when I hope that reproach
of legislature shall be removed. (Hear, hear.) After having so long
occupied the house with details respecting Manchester, as I
conceive entitle it to be represented in Parliament, and as the grounds
on which I desire to apply for the same privilege on behalf of Bir.
mingham and Leeds are grounds pretty nearly similar, though ap-
plying to a different species of manufacture, I shall not trouble the
house by entering into any such particulars relative to those towns
as 1 have thought it necessary to do in the case of Blanchesta.
They each carry on a great and important manufacture; they are
the centres and the capitals of those manufactures respectively ;
they are the seats of great property and of great enlightenment.
I know I shall be told that those places. though not specialty
represented, are still sufficiently and practically represented in
this house by the county members. Ido beg of the house to con-
alder a little before it allows such an argument to have any weight
With it. It is pretty well known that the county members
I are generally persons of large landed property, and are re.
turned by the landed interest ; therefore they at least can
I never be said to hold their seats as the representatives of any manu-
facturing interest, and are independent of any such. Besides they
I are not wry dependent even upon chose who do return than. When
once a podemen bosom a county member, he generally remains
so fee many parliaments ; and even though he be not able to attend
his dudes hem he dose not in consequence lose his sent, a, we have
anletansple in the awe of the member for Lancashire. But suppose
the sanely member had the fullest inclination to do all in his power
he the mentdacturiag intimate of the place he represented, bow
oeshl ha, ad he alone, do all that might be required for his landed
emedesents, and at the same time attend to the numerous and
tonqdot intonate of a r
ba manufacturing and conimercial
ossenenalty P In practice tis seen that the county members
are never able to attend to both ; and what is the consequence
that when any great question is likely to come before the legislature
matsvially affecting their Interests, or when they desire to bring for-
ward anything of themselves, instead of made? known though their
ta representives in this house—the natural, 1 timate, and emulate.
dotal mode of communicating with the legit. ture—a body of dole-
gates are appointed, who come up to town and have interviews with
his majesty's ministers • and conferences are held upon the crook
and cotton, and iron trades, and efforts are made to make those mi.
Waters comprehend the interests of those pantos, and bring forward
those measures in parliament which, the interests or sights of the
applicants required. How infinitely better then that tier
of those districts should beinziarly and eonstitutionally rerteiwled
in this house; that Bina , Leeds, and Slaacheater, should
return members capable of ling their interests, and explaining
their views. A due reparaidedos of those districts would also be
attended with this luntedelal alba, that it would prevent the alive&
den et the public mind,' these districts from the House of Com:i
monmmit might naturally be expected to excite a feeling a Mn.
Yaw and auks than in dame of difficulty and dhow look a
di alba sad easaarais 4alinerations of perliannen. saber than
• ear peeeendloya of ehele ann. Erin is the soda
IWO qmadane Wm*
_sense ea tit Sale Pi
• qt
imp ate paiieely aeon of the
East .1•1111 a Compare iii:sarapb. a gennion
dot be ~Alp sh whey . About eft
hour to the lotellolldas the ridgcllllMMlnte of meld ewe.
ampules coolish/a Ninth end widener 5ir.,.... to thaw &slim.
of trAtiolt abrocuseb po,greontatAvis aft the purer organs? How
odd ginedifort_nr tho Rich lodha and tr4th Cities Zak%
propeply aonideeed wlthept does aids es
Themw tie
quest*. Who ea to be baud cc suoit a erotica as Alle. Moe.
sentatives of Leeds, of PmlPOter.i!kl, Ind Nastehaur f Wke se
- - 'in decing whether '

before the home what has appeared to my mind the chief grounds
upon which I think this change in our repeesentation should
be made, I come now to some of the chief objections which
may possibly be urged against the change, with the proposal of
which I intend to conclude. I possibly may be told, in the first
place, that previous to the union with Scotland and Ireland, the
number of English representatives was fixed ; and that now, to iii.
crease that number, by introducing representatives for the three
towns in question, would be an infraction of the compacts formed
between those countries and this. I conceive that in all questions in
compact, the first thing we have to do is to inquire whether the alter-
ation we propose to effect will do any real injury. Now I cannot con-
ceive what injury Ireland or Scotland could sustain from die intro.
duction into this house of six representatives for the three towns I
have mentioned. There can be no practical evil ; and, in the end,
there must be great advantage to them from such a chance; for it
in Scotland or in Ireland it could hereafter be shown that any
great town in either country required representation, the precedent
would be in their favour. But it was absurd to talk of too scru-
pulous an observance of the compact with those countries ; te.
compacts had been broken more than once, and a further L.
fraction of their letter for the general good, and for the contin.
gent advantage of the weaker countries, ought not to form are
insuperable impediment in the way of a legislature whici
had broken through them so freely in some cases that I shall
name. There, for example, are the heritable jurisdictions—
they were abolished since the Scotch Union, and Catholic
Members may now sit for Scotland, though for long after the
union none but Protestants were eligible. The same occurred
with respect to Ireland, and there the forty-shilling freeholder,
were abolished; and in doing this Parliament was not pre-
vented by any considerations about compacts. In that. parliament
was governed by the soundest considerations of expediency. I th,
not know whether I am at liberty to allude to what was said in anu-
thee place on the discussion of the Catholic relief bill ; but I hop,
I may be allowed to call the attention of the house to a speech math
by Earl Orey on that occasion, in which he completely overturned
the whole of this argument, so far as Scotland was concerned. I
never remember any thing more conclusive and satisfactory than a a. 4
his reasoning ; nor do I ever remember to have heard a more able.
luminous and powerful a speech, than that of which the reasoning
I allude to formed a part. I think it is impossible to bear the oh-
lesivations of the noble earl in mind, and doubt for a moment that
we are at perfect liberty to commit any infraction of the letter
of these compacts which may be for the benefit of the whole com-
munity, as it never could be the intention of those parties, to
whom the compacts were framed, to enter into any obligations
inconsistent with the true interests of the population of tin
united kingdom at large. I shall now come to another objection—
it will be said that the admission of six new members has tht
effect of sanctioning a principle which would let in 30 or 40 new
_members as readily as six, and that other great towns are as well en-
titled to be represented as Birmingham, or Leeds, or Manchester—.
that the line had been already drawn, and that if once passed,
We
could foretel the remote consequences—that the very pe.
tition presented this night from Sheffield afforded the fullest
evidence that the communities desiring representation, and xe
well entitled to it as those I have mentioned, will not be limited to
those three. Let this be examined—it deserves to be locked into,
he it has something of a logical appearance, though no real founda-
don in truth ; for be it remembered, that the time towns for which
I claim representation are the capitals of three great branches of our
manufacture, and Sheffield, though the seat, is not the capital ot
any great branch. Thus, the house will see that though that ob.
jection sounds plausibly, it has no real foundation in truth; for
the principle which admits Manchester, Birmingham, and Leeds,
is not capable of extension to any other place. Not that I mean to
my that either now or at some future ume representation may act
be further extended ; but what I contend for is, that my par.
Ocular motion does not in its principle let in any but the three
towns to which it particularly refers, and does,not let in any others
beyond that number. But looking to its former acts, Idu not per.
ceive that parliament has been governed by such considerations ot
principles as those of which 1 have just been speaking. It was not re.
strained from disfranchising the Irish 40s. freeholders, from any
consideration that future parliaintets would find in that proceeding a
precedent for hereafter raising the qualification to 501. or 1001. Ex-
cessively strict adherence to principle must produce a practice ot
legislating for the maintenance of grievances, not for their abolition.
Having thus briefly answered what I consider the chief objections to
my motion, I have little more to add, except, perhaps, to advert
to the supposed danger of this innovation—it will probably be
denounced as an extremely dangerous innovation. I think the dan-
ger lies em *sodas side. 1 think the true spirit of the constitution
L in chmipe obiedy from those who, in their absurd apprehension of
boovatim, woad- assist all wholesome and salutary chin who.
es wedded to steam imitation. overlook their unsnitabkaeas to
swim times and tie Amid emulition of society. It is in prejudices
mob as dims that I *IA the tell danger will be found. (Hear.
Mir.) lam not one of these who look upon the constitution
as a Grecian temple, perfect In all its proportions—a model of
symmetry and grace, which viditions Would deform, and Muti-
nied= destroy. (Hear, hear.) I rather regard it as a Gothic
Maneitere, from which many excrescences may be advantageously
assessed, and many additions made which would improve
pospertions and add to the security of its inhabitants. (Hear.
Mar, hear.) But there ha also danger if we do not in a wise and
liberal spirit meet the augmenting dispositions to regard us with
distrust which prevails out of doors. One of tke true modes of
Itessdng the evil will be to collect, within the walls of this house,
as luny as possible of the real representatives of the people.—
Ohm, hear, hear.) It is then, and not until then, that we can be
regarded as the true representation and image of a great and
powerful and free country. The more I consider this question,
the more am I persuaded that the real danger is not in the change
which I propose, and which some would call innovation. When
I look abroad to other countries—when I see in a neighbouring
senctly the collision going on between the Itoyal Authority
es the sae head, and popular resistance on the other ; and when
INS We that temper, those heats and animosities which confidence
la a true representative government can alone allay, I cannot bring
myself to believe that the danger is to be found in any quarter other
than that which I have indicated. It is upon grounds such a these
that I intend to submit to the house a propoeiton for infranchising
'Manchester, Leeds, and Birmingham.—and this I do, being, as 1
trait I ever shall be, an enemy to disorder, though a friend to liberty
—opposed to slavery, though an advocate for peace...deeply see.
sable of the delicate machinery of a representative government, I am
anxious to assist in procuring for this country a legislature and
administration worthy of its respect, and deserving its affection. I
beg to move for leave to bring in a bill to enable the towns ot Man.
chester, Leeds, and Birmingham, to return representatives to serve in
parliament.

Mr. WILBRAHAIII would support the noble lord in his pra!+e.
worthy efforts to obtain a better system of representation fur to
commercial districts of the kingdom. He had witnessed with mix,:
satisfaction on a former occassion the noble lord's exertions Burin{
the progress of the Catholic relief bill, and he trusted that his pre-
sent exertions would be crowned with equal success. He thought
that there was great necessity for some change in our representative
system, and in the representation of counties more particularly.
He thought the duration of polls might be shortened: with great
propriety. The Landed Interest, according to the present system,
was to a certain extent sepessented, but our manufacturing interests
were scarcely represented at all. Whole districts, the populations
of which ware int noise, and which contained the moat intelligent
portion of the community, had no representatives in this house.
The object of the present bill being to obtain • better system of
representation for those districts he would support it in all its stages.
Lord SANDON next addressed the house, but, standing under
the gallery, and directing his voice towards the.speaker's chair, the
noble lord was utterly inaudible in the reporter's gallery. At the
conclusion he moved the following amendment
• ricst-That it is expedient that all boroughs that shall have
been proved guilty of gross and notorious corruption shall cease to
exercise the right of returning members to this house.
• Second —Thafthe right of returning members taken from boa
toughs in which bribery and corruption shalt have been proved to
prevail be given to some of the unrepresented manufacturing towns
or large counties."
Lord MORTZTII seconded the amendment.
The original motion and the amendment having been read by me
speaker, on the question being put,
Hr. HORACE T‘VISS was opposed to the amendment of the
noble lord who had just sat down, no less than to the motion of the
noble lord (bord John Russell) opposite ; and for the sante reason.
that both pledged the bourse to a general principle of reform, with-
out a previous case of necessity having been esusblished. Ile could
not agree with the noble lord (Lord John Russell) that either the
articles of union with Scotland or Ireland affonled any pretext for
interfering with our present system of legislation. With respect to
Ireland, the noble lord was lnernw, or rather, his inferences, as ap.
plied to England, were not borne out by fsct.Tiil a recent period the
Catholics, as the noble lord well knew, were not in possession of the
elective franchise, and till a period still mote recent, though they
had been put into possession of the right of election, they were
legally ineligible to b: elected. The case was different as to Eng.
la.;d. He was rather surprised when he heard the noble lord corns'
forward with a great measure of reform like that which he had just
submirlid to the house, that he had not previously made manifest.
to the satisfaction of the bowie, seine particular grievance i t the
existing eenstitutional system of representation which would justify
a measure at -reform. it was true that it was frequently asserted
by booottrahle members, that that binge did not represent the
peopled England.
_ Li, by duly tepreeendag the seam of the
People of go lead, it was meant that that house should be the
mere index of the 'fluctuating opinions that people— opinions so
necessarily temporary, as being at else time ceasareent upon partial
distress, et &MA, time oceationed by erroneous views ot their
own interest—he, for oar. would admit that the assertion was
well founded ; he would go farther, and contend that it was never