The Sun.
London, England, 1827-06-21 00:00:00

BREACH OF PRIVILEGE.

The Earl of WINCHELSEA in presenting a petition,
said, that he would take that opportunity of making a few
remarks though totally unconnected with the petition
which be held in his hand. Those remarks deeply
concerned the honour and the integrity of that House,
and in making them he would endeavour to restrain him-
self from adverting to any particular speech in the
other House, and from the mention of any measure,
though much had been said with respect to that measure,
which had lately been carried by a majority of that House,
and which, if it had not been so carried, would have been
likely to be attended with the greatest mischief; and if Noble
Lords were to be prevented from vindicating their characters
within those walls from aspersions thrown upon them in
the other House, it would have been one of the greatest
evils that could possibly exist, and which he was sure
every Noble Individual would oppose. If any indivi-
dual, however, dared to say a word out of the
walls of that House respecting the motives of the
Noble Members composing it, he was sure there was not
an individual present but would to the utmost resist it ;
and if an insinuation had been thrown out elsewhere,
that the votes which had been given by the side of the
House on which he stood were not given ou public but on
private grounds—
The LORD CHANCELLOR rose to order. He ap-
prehended there was no Noble Lord in that House whe
would feel himsel?justified in doing that indirectly which the
rules of that House would not allow him to do directly.
It was quite impossible that the House should not under-
stand what was meant by the Noble Lord, and he (the
Lord Chancellor) put it to the Noble Lord, whether he was
not doing that covertly and obliquely which he would not feel
himself justified in doing openly and directly. If that
were s:;', he put it, not to the Noble Lords composing the
House, but to the Noble Lord himself, whether he ought
to proceed ?_( Hear, hear, hear, from the Ministerial side.)

The Earl of WINCHELSEA, in answer to the Noble
Lord on the Woolsack, felt certain that no individual who
knew his candour could for an instant suspect him guilty
of attempting any thing indirectly or covertly. He had
no such feelings, and he begged to say in the broadest
manner that, with respect to any individual who dared
to throw any such aspersions as had been thrown or
Noble Lords, however .high his rank, it was the duty
of every Noble Individual who was upon his side
of the House to stand forward and oppose it.—(Hear,
hear.)—The Noble Lord himself had voted in the majo-
rity who were for the Noble Duke's amendment, and
he did that under the firm persuasion that it win
for the benefit of the public. He stood there ready to sa-
crifice every atom of property he had, and to trample
under foot his best interests, rather than sacrifice one par-
ticle of those feelings which were most dear to him.-7-
-He felt certain that the characters of public men, and
of those who had contributed to the safety of their
country must ever be dear to the heart of every true pr.
triot ; but the character of those men had been abused, and
that abuse had been circulated, not only throughout this
kingdom, but over the whole world. The illustrious and
distinguished individual, whom he did notsee in the House,

those who were engaged with them in it, because of

observations made elsewhere. He was sure that what

fell from the Noble Lord on the Woolsack opposite, ought

to be the rule by which their Lordships should abide, and

even the Noble Earl Opposite admitted the impropriety
of the course which he pursued. The Noble Earl hinted,
however, at what gave rise tohis observations in such a way
that it was hard not to guess what he alluded to. He
(Lord Goderich) would not follow the example of the

Noble Lord, because' he 'felt that the duty of the two

branches of the Legislature could not be adequately per-
formed if the Members of either indulged with latitude
in remarks upon the conduet of the other. He could not
however refrain from saying, that in the course of thee

recent. discussions, remarks bad been made imput-

ing to others sentiments never uttered by them. He could.

not remain silent on this subject whilst he recnliecteh
that within a very short time back, indeed, remarks had

been made on individuals, and words put into their mouths
which they never gave expression to, and which no one
had authority to say they did.—(Hear, hear.)
The LORD CHANCELLOR, in explanation, begged
to assure the Noble Earl, that be never intended to say-,
that he would do indirectly, that which he feared to do by

a direct course.

Earl GREY did not think that the Noble Lord on the
Woolsack was quite regular in calling his Noble Friend
(the Earl of Winchelsea) to order, because, though, in point
of fact, the allusion he made was to what bad passed in the
other House of Parliament, yet so long as such allusion
was made in a proper manner, that course was not
against the orders of the House. Occasionally such al-
lusion might be necessary, and it could be made without
producing any ill effect ; but he most entirely agreed
in what the Noble and Learned Lord had stated on
a former night, that nothing was so inconvenient, so
dangerous, or so destructive to the character of both
Houses, and thereby to the Constitution of the country, as

the practice of questioning in either House, the conduct of
individuals, in the discharge of their legislt tire duty in the
other House, sad to cast the worst reflections on them by
imputing to them improper motives in what they had done.
Wherever this practice originated it was a great fault, and
that great fault was much aggravated by the certainty of
its exciting retaliation. Great care should therefore be taken
that no such thing should occur again. The Noble Vis-
count (Godetich) had talked of attacks, and words having
been cited in this Hones, as used elsewhere, and also talked
of reflections having been made here upon the t3nduct of
certain individuals. K. (Lord Grey) certainly did hear
severe things said of the character of individuals as Ministers,
but he always understood that the person making them judged,
in the first instance, for himself, and that the public after-
wards judged of the justice of their application. .He
had, however, no recollection of any attacks having been
made here on the other House : if there were, they-did
not now occur to his mind. The Noble Viscount (Gale.
rich) said that no one could doubt the object to which the
allusions of the Noble Earl were directed. The Noble
Viscount, therefore, could bet have felt those difficulties
which he said he did in the opening of the Speech, as to
what called for the animadversions of the Noble Earl.
He (Earl Grey) bad no Wish to allude to this subject more
particularly, but if these discussions should continue, he
did hope that the Noble Viscount opposite, and the Noble
Lord on the Woolsack, who had expressed himself so pro-
perly on the present occasion, would use their influence➢
where lie trusted their influence would have effect, to
prevent expression. coming from In individual, whose
situation ought to place him under restraints of more deco-
rum than to allow himself to use expressions striking at the
very independence of this House, vilifying its character, and
such as were never uttered before, particularly by a Mini-
ster of State, who had used such terms at,' expressions,—
applied in the first instance to the individual who proposed
an amendment to a certain Bill, and next applied to all
the persons who had concurred in that measure,—as
went to excite hatred against this House throughout the
country, and coining under that description of language
which was likely to provoke retaliation, while the person
using those expressions was one of those who had supported
a law which would send the person who might be provoked
to retaliate to banishment. These being topics which
might produce bad effects of the most serious character to
the country, and calculated to destroy the harmony of the
two Houses of Parliament, and thereby to have the effect
of putting a stop to the business of the Legislature, he did
hope that a little care would be taken to inspire a little
more temperance in that person who was the first to excite
a discanion of this nature. The subject was most
portant, and he hoped it would be conducted with the
firmness and dignity which became the dignity of this
House.

The Marquis of LANSDOWN deprecated a dis-
cussion of this sort, and said that the only re-
gular and proper course of alluding, to what
was represented as having occurred at the other
House, or at public Meetings, was by calling to
the Bar the individual by whom they had beers
published, if they contained reflections derogatory
to the dignity of their Lordships.—(A laugh.)—He was
stating what had been done before now—the only regular
course which could be pursued, and, he would add, the
only convenient one. If Noble Lords, by that sort of in-
timation which they had given meant to hint that he was
recommending this course as a discreet one for any Noble
Lord to follow, who might feel sensitive as to what might
be said of him, he could assure them that he was far
from recommending a hasty adoption of this, discretion
for he thought it was far more consisten►, with the dignity
of their Lordships' House, as a breach of the legislature,
poton the
enterh n
intour
ao f
sensitivet the individuals
ad queru-
lous w
to rely upon its own character, upon the justice of its
cporoisenqnuPlitr:y afshdanuto what might be put forth on any
of its proceedings. Before he sat down he would con-
firm the statement which bad been made by his Noble
Friend—that expressions had been (rioted as having
been used in that House, which, with reference to the
other House of Parliament, were calculated to excite
hatred—as much calculated to east a stigma—as much
calculated to bring into discredit, as was' any thing, even,
according to the statement of the Noble Earl opposite,
which could be said to have taken place there, with refe-
stated it.
auHdewwhiasch7oftorawthaeresaokfothoef phreacriniseauy,he expressions
lvishedin
rence to their Lordship's House. He was sure what he
alluded to could not have occurred to the recollecticea of his
Noble Friend (Earl Grey), but the fact was as he had
but all that he could say was, that
of that House, he would endea-
nich;behre was sure the Noble and Learned
davLh
seaooadu question,raendea-
vour
otuoionrnt ddtbfeditdnh
no
Wooutteredlsackual
and the whole House would also en-
to prevent that course of allusion
which all the Noble Lords who had spoken had agreed
ought on all occasions to be avoided, and which wts snore
particularly to be avoided when it stood in the way of the
discharge of their public duty.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH said it would be extremely
harsh indeed when they knowingly permitted the publication
of their proceedings, to call tck the Bar the tulortunate
individual who should publish them. With reference to
the remarks made elsewhere, he would make no allusion
to them ; the contempt they inspired was so great, that he
would treat them with the contemptuous silence they best
deserved.

The Marquis of LAND OM N explained. He did not
.wish to be, understood as recommending the course of
calling printers to the bar of the House. Such a
course he should greatly deprecate on the present oc-
casion, and could never approve, except on very ma-
ture consideration. Such a course he admitted might
be unjust, but he did not hesitate to affirm, that no-
thing could be more improper or unjust than so attribute

to individuals, expressions which those individuals had per-
haps never used, and of which at all events their Lordships
could know nothing.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY wished to know
whether the Noble Marquis would induce his Right Hon.
Friend to publish his speech, in order that it might be seen
whether the Right Hon. Gentleman had used those ex-
pressions he was reported to have used, and which were so
derogatory to the dignity of this House.
Lord GODERICH hoped his Noble Friend would not
answer that question.
Lord CALTHORPE then presented a petition from Bir-
mingham, praying that the Trade with India might be
opened.
Lord FARNHAM presented petitions from the county
and city of Cork, from the county of Cavan, and from the
Presbyterians of Cavan, against any further concessions to
the Roman Catholics. . .

The. Earl of GOSFORD presented a petition from the
Protestant proprietors of land (501. freeholders) of the
county of Armagh,' in favour of Catholic Emancipation.
The Marquis of LANSDOWN presented a petition from
Cork, complaining of their liability to serve as Church-
wardens.
Lord DUDLEY laid on the table a return of the amount
and disposal of the secret service money up to (we under-
stood) the sth of April, 1827.