The Sun.
London, England, 1842-07-23 00:00:00

'of ttlcMht--iiimour4ble Geo ti,rilin 0., an isielfutilit - t'e" 6. M.-. ::ti 1- ority. P. they put- an red to the
have recourse to a
go-
-11,1 the SOKeet Atte; M at, pitiVided. by this Bill. In di- leth vertee el; et sot le, they :
•e!ause the punishment previch4 for the 'f rg r of Ex- , sys • te e•r eels i eseertenent, and the question would
• (410Y:ter-bine .Wita'•-•seet et- yeers' tra-aporsatiou, er :rue - . it. , E.. sy.: se et. Freebie! government should be had
^.. !)16rtattion , for life; :While some other minor forgeriee rescue to, zedt;ece to it etal prejudices and feelings without
were ptinished with transportation andl
; boatel bins would wish to see established; tted it' h ' ii
•• The erii6TCELLOR of the EXCIItQUER said he ' epperd were given; he was at a loss to know its, whore the
14'31114. csitesider:, Ole point. - - appeal could be given except toe the local agistracy.
, COLONIAL PASSENGERS BILL. The first was a system wit/elf he hall not heard any
.„1-I,"rd STANLEY postponed ft the third reading of this ,
,getals. :a n aces-. It, would be a system of unruis
ee l' to Tuesdey nest, on which day he gave the Hon, tigated oppression and injustice to draw ii. dis-
Gentleman opposite (Mr. Hawes) notice that it would tinstion between what "ere called t"6 deserving
tithe precedence of other motions. por by giving the reliefti and refusing relief
POOR-LAWS.' as a punishment to thtisn who in that narrow
On the, motion for.the thirdreading of the Poor-law circle would e iosider Iprobably most unjustly
be , , et ,
-,. aiill - ' considered, As undeserving. —(Cheers.) Such a
b.' 1-4'reTALMERSTON wished allow the Right .system ceuld only Cheers the Most Monstrous tyranny
eiti
fleas nourable Baronet if he would. hint to take wia oppression.—() To give relief without ap-
that opportunity of adverting to his (Sir Robert peal would only be to revert to that state of the law
:,.: x:eel's) intentions with regard to education.. Some which had existed from 1796 to 1834, and which had
me ago the President of the Council presented produced such a state of affairs that the intervention of
:-• Petitton to' the other House of Parliament from the Legislature was at the time admitted to be indispen-
, • the classeS at Exeter-hall, andaccompanied the presenter • sable. The Hon. Member for Rochdale made it one of
'ton of that petition by a speech of liberality of sentiment his objections to the present system, that there was no
and enlightened views, which did credit to himself and the appea from the Board of Guardians. He, therefore,
Government to which he belonged. In the course of that would object to a system of local government without
speech he stated that he thought it the duty of the Go- appeal, and the Hon. Member for Oldham had taunted
Vern Ment to increase the annual grant for the purposes hint (Sir J. Graham) for saying that there was an appeal
°f
education, and of course the general impression from .he Board of Guardians to the Assistant Poor-law
created by that sentiment was, that it was the intention Commissioner, and from the Assistant - Commis-
°f h
er Majesty's Government, of which he was so promi- sinner to the Commissioners themselves. The
rent a Member, to-increase that grant by proposing an Honourable Member had said that the Commissioners
• 10'14'
s• ional estimate for that purpose. The Committee themselves had no power of ordering relief.
' : ot Supply was drawing to a close, and he.(Lord Palmers. He felt bound distinctly to admit that there was directly
ton)
.t._ would ask the Right Hon. Baronet whether it was no power on the part of the Commissioners to order re-
"a intention of her Majesty's Government to .propose lief, but where the relief had been refused capriciously ,
an
~.. s.,additional
grant for that purpose; he (Lord Feltner- by the Board of Guardians, and the party applied to the
!LA) at the same time would say, that if such were the Central Board, it had beet, found effectual. He vas unwil-
s ease, he wouid give it his full support. ling to refer to the state of the country in 1831, but as
!:. _
.Sir ROBERT PEEL said it so happened that he was' the Hon. Member for Oldham had stated, the dis-
,:
subject,
met the President of the Council this day on the -tress existing in the country. was a great deal worse now
4_ubject, but he luid not done so ; and therefore lie could than it was in 1821. Now, with respect to that, he would
not undertake to give an assurance with respect to an read a letter from Bedford, which statedethat the distress additional grant, but
4osiver to-morrow. ilis.Noble correspondent informed him that the greatest
.fir. Fee, -) s
the „ .4.141 LN then proposed, as an amendment to contrast existed between the state of the country under
v, I nor-law Bill, that it be re-committed and printed, . the old laW and under-the present in the county of Bed-
'lr. S. CRAWFORD wished to know if he could pro. • ford, and that, speaking generally, there was a large de-
"se the amendment of which he had given nelice. - mend for efficient workmen throughout the e(4 nty,
,e.
~, ,
, Ine SI LAKER said he could take bet one amend- and that the happiest change ff •ct al in the condi-
was e , t.
eteet.
Ale tion of the working classes. The Hon. Member for Old-
e
eee • FIELDEN than said, he would propose his ham used strong declamation against this measure, as
"4 talinent on the motion that the ill!! do pass. ' ' most unjust and. most-unfair, and said he would have to
4;,11-Tr• S. CR AWFORD then rose and said that he bad reps.nt of its fatal effects. Whet did the lion. Gentleman
,S,`,'l•ldiel the House ,in the second reading. and
,in the want ? Did he really desire that the able-bodied man
;es inittett, and he should now divide the House in the should 'be dependents n the poor-rate tor his support ?--
t stage of the Bill. - He thought since the Bill had ( Hear, Lear.) lie obj;cted to the present law, but be
bean altered if, was more objectionable than before. It did not venture to say he was satisfied with the old law.
S now exposed in all .ts nuked derminity. The first Mee all which had occurred with respect to this law, it
tee tilleetion to the Commission Was the forcing the in-door would be stitisfi.et. ry to state distinctly and explicitly
f ''•-• When it was unnecessary. This had been proved by what law they desired for the able-bodied workman.--
pt.% mid those facts had situ been denied or refuted. He cave the Hon. Member credit for his kindness to
„ u,e next objection was the diet. which created disease, the poor. Ile was aware that in his own neigi-i-
--nu they still forced it on the poor. The aged bourhoed, mid with regard to those workmen
ittesl'e treated in the same way as . the . able- t, ho were iinipertiatOY dependent on .him, he was ex-
died poor Those chargei had not been refuted. tremelikii,ifL(Eieur, hear)—and that hisaets illustrated
The
clause giving the p, .or access to a committee was the sentiments tie -expresst-d in fa.vinir'ef the poor, anti
withdrawn, Tiler were called tiporate retie% the Cote. were thettisel,ss deserting /If the highe t attention; Lao
kis • • -
mon tor five Years, without any amelioration, what- he (Sir Jun, s Graham) should be gitid to know fruit,
l•
ever ') tho lass'. Tile Got ernment engaged to bring tor- the Hon. sientleinao, as he was nut sati fled with th,
*eel
'.‘4 a general measure on the 'subject next s. ssion, pi es,•lit law, what law lie would recommend as u substi-
*hid, .
4 measure was to remedy the evils of the present . Lute, if the law. at present existing were repealed.—
w• He di t ro,,_. dno mean to impute to the Right Hon. Be- (Hear, hear.) He had taken part in various Committees
„suet any intention of violating.that pledge i but circum- of Inquiry ;he had read the Commission, and devoted
'leeswhich
~,.... over. the Government could exercise no much attention to the subject, but the result of that
eritrul might occur to prevent them from redeeming that attention (lid not enable him to offer any measure on
til•elge. The present. Bill was an instance of the possi- this subject more preferable than that under discussion.
e,7 of the occurrence of such circumstances. *I he It was quite vain to sae that the Bill prevented relief
t'eht lion. Peironet had been rencatedY asked whether except in the workhouse. He must -ay that such would
p was his intention to go into the whole subject of the be unjust. But it was not so. He had already stated
tenor-law, or merely to renew the Commission. He had that the amount of out-door relief was enormous.
teP,aatedly said that he would go into the whole subject, The Honourable Member. for Oxford had put
tied S'et he had been unable to do so. That was an evi- a question to him (Sir James Graham) respeot-
"l:Poee f the powerlessness of the Ministry to fulfil such ing the number of widows relieved. There were
tensions. Besides, it was possible that the present . 165,000 granted relief, and out of that number only
°ltiaistry might not be in office next ses- 13,000 were relieved in the workhouse. His Hon.
loon
is , and they might be ' succeeded by a Minis- Friend then asked the number of able-bodied men in
Al which was more adver te to the interests of the poor. the workhouse. He held in his hand the number of We-
ft) hew Ministry would not be bound by the pledges of a bodied paupers- in England and Wales during the first
4►t*n__ ier one. What would be the value of that pledge if quarters of 1840 and 1841.
new Ministry were to come to power ?- It was said Captain PECHELL does that include the Local Acts.
that if this Bill were rijected things could get into con- Sir JAMES GRAHAM
:salon. He did not think so. He thought it would be Gilbert Unions. • The number of adult able-bodied
:ueh better that the Commission should be suffered to paupers relieved in the quarter ending Ladyday 1840,
stptre at the endof
deemed desirable to prolong its existence, it would be House suppose that there was one half in the workhouse
easy to introd - • • •
~_o.i . me. a Bill continuing it for one year. 'Lo —one quarter ? No, those relieved
in
the workhouse
__Ute a Bill he would offer no opposition. He' therefore out of that number was only 50,000. Therefore in point
yosell. de on the House to do its duty at this, the last stage offect the number of persons relieved was only about
that this
land to 'throw it out. The people considered twenty-five persons. In the quarter ending Ladysday,
Bi I emanated frOm a desire Of the rich toop- 1841, the whole number was 345,656 able-bodied
Press the poor,anti lie it the House
• St
was
to 'entertain
for the House to permit the people 50,000 of them were relieved in the workhouse.hich
had
~ ain such . an opinion. 'This law also He could conceive one state of things in w • the pro-
we effect 'ht be necessary, and another state of
fur
t • of lowering wages. Another hibitury order might
oit was it being f unconstitutional things • which it might be expedient to give to a union
nature. T . o an in
, o those, declared this law to tution it be uncons -t- the out door labour test ; and other circumstances in
al, was said thatwhich it would be harsh and cruel to apply either the
acquainted • h • • they had not made themselves_
• with its provisions, but that objection could workhouse test or the outdoor labour test. Under these
IV,t, apply to him, for he had carefully read over the circumstances it must be evident to every one, that large
,e_tus and he could point ont manyitf its clauses which discretionary powers should be vested somewhere, and
ire of an unconstitutional character. The Hon. Gen- in his opinion nowhere could it be better vested than in
dc'rnan here enumerated several clauses which he consi- the hands of Commissioners. He vies satisfied on the
2°l:ad of 'thekind mentioned ; among them were the 15th, whole that this measure was adapted to st-cure the just
til,(l' 25th, &e. ; and then went on to say—Hon. Gentle- and safe administration of relief to the poor ; for that
hut I might vote in favour of the Lill in the first instant. , relief, which was the distinguishing characteristic of the
he now, after seeing how injurious it Was to the people, 'policy of this country, unless checked,' was capable
dicientild not imagine how they `could support it. He of great abuse. flaying no personal fear for the
tityllt (*xPect, on this occasion, to have a large majo- obloquy which might attach to him, he proposed a
seetCat he was better pleased to have his, name in a measure, which in his heart and conscience he believed
the i minority, voting for the rights of the poor, than in to be most humane. He had not hesitated a moment in
TIN 41'!-!est majority voting against them.--(Hear, hear.) the course which he should adopt, and he earnestly en-
be
1, lion. Gentleman c ncluded by moving that the Bill treated the House to pass the Bill, by such a majority
)pld that day' six months. ' as should mark to the poor that they did not hesitate ii•
4,, t• FIELDEN seconded the motion. They might the course which they should adopt for their benefit..
tettiltd upon it that it' the Government proceeded sith air. O'CONN'ELL— File Right lion. Baronet, who
• t' nor-law as it at present existed, for the next five had jil,t. sat down, said it would he cruel in the extreme,
tic "14 their reign would be suort.—(llearohear.) The unwise in the extreme, unjust in the extreme, if no re-
ai(il was that there was no person on the Nlignsterial lief sl.ouid be given, under any circumstances, to able
of of the House who could define what the principles beili.d labourer... t la, hoe, ver, was the law in Ire
I,ttie Bill were. It was an Act to starve the poor end tend.; and it wt? hi. intention, on some other occasion.
littreduce Wages. It was an Act of oppression as ainst tea speak more at length on this subjec . His objection to
ssia' able-bodied hard-working poor man, and against the the present Bill was its continuance of the Poor-law
e. ‘4°W and orphan childr, n. ' Ile had received u letter Corumission. .11e rejoiced to see the liberality with which
..14n the coentry, relating the case of a labourer who the system was worked out. Ile hoped thit the sy stela
gone fifty miles .11 search of work, and could not pr. - could be alselierated in Ireland. He had been strong')
ore any. That man had ',lmplied to get his farniki into the solicited to bring the subject torwsrd, but he would watt
ahorkhouse, and had been refused. They were treating tilt the next -essiot., when he pledg, d himself not to he
the Poor worse than dogs. If they would but employ a week pass without applying for a Committee to in
for a labourers there would be nun •ed o• any (1 -orn-teess -litre 'lnto the e erkit,g id the system in Ireland. Fo
self they employed the labourers they would raise food the presen,, be felt bound to vote against the Bill, te
Cu,gh at home to feed time people; but they would not reason of the comitinut•ce of the Commission for more
that,
e for that would make corn cheap. They kept up than one year.
law
to, make food dear, and they-kept up a Poor- Captain BERKELEY admired the manly way in
sus
to keep. labour cheep.—(Hear, hear.) This law which he the Right lion. Baronet the Secretary for the
pi. 3 unjust. Why did they treat the poor like Home Departure tit had taken upon himself all the odiuu.
NI" Ben,bssl If the man refussd to work punish ti e attached to this Bitl. W hen the measure had been ori-
-4 11.1 out do not let the poor mate, who was union unale, ginally brouvt te ward he (Captain Bet iteley) had sal
4 punished with separation fr,,ln his family ? ported it, and he now r• s• to declare his willingness t
ke Would advise the Members of that House to beware share in the unpopularity whi.li was, affixed to it.
1) "le ; they would not have leir Corn-laws and their Colonel SIB Ft wit)? opposni the third reading of the
nnr-laWs. lie would entreat the Right Hon. Baronet Bill, believing it to be productive of great mischief.
o*t
wl hdraw the present Bill. If he withdrew it, he
General JOHNSON objected to giving uncontrolled
uld
el, have nothing to regret. If he persevered in it, he power to any three individuals, whoever they might be,
il7r..Pielden) sincerely believed he would one day have
anti therefore he opposed the Bill. Hon Gentlemen op
bert_son to repent such a course, for it would raise the posite who had opposed this Bill, must be very easily
;72' against the aristocracy ; and if they raised the poor satisfied, if they now voted for the third reading, lot
-%."anst them, their own destruction would follow. • had been garbled dmangledth that •
the Bill
Ildr
bad
• MUNTZ said this was a most important law ; it possible to know what it was, or on what they west
ue7. already overturned and destroyed one great and
voting. - Its principle was to make the people live on as
Wverful Government, and it was very likely, if perse-
little as possible, and to constitute the Commissioners
red in, to destroy the present Government. Feeling judges of how small a quantity of food would suffice to
sat°egly, as he had ever done, that this law was one of keep body and soul together. It could never enhance
Yewsecrescences of an unwise legislation, which for man) wage-, it must depress them ; and as he was opposed to
1,, had destroyed the good of this country—that teveryteing that tended to ceettulization, he was opposed
„.eetet hand in hand with the Factory Bill, the Truck Bill,
to this Bill.
Z_l the . Emigration Bill, he could not allow it to
The gallery was then cleared, and the House divided.
Zes that- House, without protesting, in a solemn
For the third reading lO3
he ci serious manner, against the effect of it. If Against it , 30
.40 had no other reason for opposing this Bill, it would Majority in favour of the third reading --73
ee sufficient alone that the Commissioners had the
The Bill was then a third time.•
ewer •
e to interfere with all the local acts throughout the
T. D. ACLAND said he should move the follow-
uuntrWho
li.„ y. could be such good judges of the misery Sir
in.- clause as a rider to the Bill :—" To enable guar-
,,e,U. wants of the people in any particular town as the ee,os to
appoint
local committees for receiving applietie
asuabitants of that town? One of the strangest anomalies `-"
this law was the su ort it met with from the Liberal tions of poor persons in parishes situated at a certain
pp
distance from the place of meeting of the Board of
lgembers in that House. He had never been able to
Guardians." He hoped the Right Hon.. Baronet would
ii
kertain how men who alwa) s supported local govern-
toetits should support this law, but he could understand be neuter on this subject, but allow the House to express
its opinion on it. He had known many poor,persons go 17
rthY gentlemen on the other side should support it, for
and 18 miles across the country to obtain relief, and after t
was in accordance with their general principles. He
disappointed.lf they introduced those
alio all, mown
were uld only repeat that he believed local governments
hate good effect besides
Committees, they would another
the best that Could be applied. His firm btlief
l• • thepour applicants ; they would be a kine
re. teving . .
as, that the greatest good that could be done-to this
eoßoardof Guardians. s
of cheek upon the
nntry would be to allow the law to die a natural death,
[tad let every union manage its own ethers. Sir C. NAPIER seconded the motion: The Right Hon.
'
' ' Mr RASHLEIGH agreed with the principle of the • the Cem-
Baronet stated that he had known cases where .. .
11111 • • rnissioners had obtained relief for people Who had been
, but thought some of the clauses too stringent.
air. IsecoTT would offer nnapposition whatever to unjustly refused relief by -the guardians, and this was
the third reading of the Bill, and he only hoped that it, stated as one proof of the good of the Commissioners.
""uld work much be:ter in future than it had hitherto Why, how often, he should like to know, did the Com-
doe,. missiuners go round, and how could the poor apply to
11r. AGLIONBY should vote against the third read- them for relief; when they had been refused it by the
lug,,, but he could not agree with the arguments or ma guardians ?He had not seen a Poor-law Commissioner,
..b°ll4 of his Hon. Friends the Members for Oldham and .or an Assistant-Commissioner, in his union for twelve
'AochdrilP. months, and he did not care if he never saw another.--
Captain' PECIIELL rose amidst cries of " Divide." (Laughter.) Ile firmly believed that the Coimnissioners
es ,
trine;
said that if Hon. Gentlemen wished to go off to prevented the guardian.
s from making the liter so good
as they often teat inclined to do. He should recommend
'l4,:ae; they could do so, and let the subject be discussed
3' those who remained, and who, he trueted, would that the people . should give their money towards the
fse
~,trlpoorhouses, and, instead of calling
'la hfight out the matter, arid decide it by a division. support of the unien.po „
ad, at all events, cue gratification,' that when he them " Union Workhouses," he would call them '•Uuiou
ur
tet •
ned home he would have the satisfaction of saying - Citios."—(Hear.)
. that the Gilbert Unions w, re safe fur a certain The claeote was then read a first time.
Period. He had done his duty in attending on to ety - •Ou the motion that the clause be read a second time,
(e casion in the House when the subject was brought Captain PECHELL approved of the clause. He
)le'ew'ard. He had not been actuated by any factious thotieht it would lie desirable if the extent of the unions
Intel in •
ves his opposition to the Bi.l, but solely by a sense could be eircionseeibeil.
of 'duty,. . . . . Mr. Ps HOWARD trusted the clause would be received
After few words from Mr. R. YORKE, which were
Inaudible a .T. by the unanimous vote of the House.
Mr. P. BO RTEIWIt 'K. supported the clause.
in the gallery,
Sir J. GRAHAM said, that after what had fallen from Mr. HARDY would be very glad to see this clause
the
lion. Member for York, he did not think it his duty Pa"' d•
to local Committees
General JOHNSON thought the . _
remain silent on the present occasion. He was bound
to ought to have the power of ordering relief at once ; for
, Say that, if he consulted the popularity of the Admi-
nistrat' whichrepot tin : roses was a very long process.
ton of he was a Member, nothing could hat c .
GRAHAM
soonl. mitre agreeable--nothing more ea y, than fur 'him Sir J. highly approved of the clause which
t,t "4" Yielded to the forcible appeals made to him not to ht-: thought it would be most ue,trabie to insert.—(Hear.)
proceed with the Bill. He had fur man Y years taken At the same tune that he coasented to the cl :u5..., he
' rar4ll the local administration of the law; he had been a wished it to be understood that he could not delegate to
- PS-''' to the measure of 1834 ; he had most anxiously the Counnittee Power to order relief.— (Cheers.)
h.ittehed the progress of that measure, and he should feel The clause was then agreed to, and ordered to be at-
taelf guilty of a gross direliction of duty if he were to tached to the Bill. •
,ge'd te any solicitation of Hon. Gentlemen opposed to Sir T. 1). ACLAND returned thanks to the Right
e to
; and, if he did not counsel the House ear- Hon. Baronet and the House for having acceded to his
uestiS and anxiously of this anxi to consent to the third reading motion.
' the Bill.—(Cheers.) He felt confident that The Bill was then read a third time.
0, ivhole scheme of government by unions for the relief ' On the question that the Biltsdo pass,
• the' Poor would fall to- the ground ; that it would be -Mr. FIELDEN moved that the Bill be printed.
~.„. akixpotuble .. ._ ,
_, . , .
:...;_. to carry it out ii it were not controlled by , 4,4 bal. maissik DecolWu W 04104014
. ..--: :*.,,,, . .., :.,,wini.ok ~,,,,.,..,,. •
..,...,.. Adt.-qid., - - ' . ~ : .„,, r., .. !..".:..1 i.:“.