The Sun.
London, England, 1842-03-02 00:00:00

INHABITANTS O 1 INDIA.

Mr. BAILLIE wished to know whether the House
were aware that inhabitants of the East Indies were
accustomed to be brought to this country and
then left in a state of destitution ; and whether
the Board of Control referred the subject to
the Indian Government, with a view to their being
taken back to their own country.
Mr. BINGHAM BARING mado a reply, but with
his back to the gallery, and in so low a tone of voice,
that we could not catch its purport.
CHURCH EXTENSION.

that he was about to bring under their notice was one that
had excited much attention in consequence of those re- '
ports which had been made during the last five years by '
those individuals who were appointed by the. late Govern-
ment, under the authority of Parliament, as Inspectors of
isons. He wished not to say one word against those
Reports ; he thought they were drawn up with an accu-
racy and an ability which did the greatest credit to those
individuals. But there was another reason why this sub-
ject excited so great an interest in the country ; during
the last two or three years the House would recollect
that some 300 or 400 persons had been confined, in our
prisons for what they called political offences. They were
a different race of men from those who generally
filled our prisons and houses of correction. They were
men of more intelligence and great ability ; they had
seen, felt,' and witnessed the deplorable scenes which
occurred in many of our prisons ; they had called
the attention of a great portion of the com-
munity to what they saw, and they insisted
on a strict and rigid investigation into the government
of those prisons. He (Mr. buncombe) should be doing
the present Legislature great injustice, and former
governments great injustice, and to the parties great
injustice, if he were not to say that great improve-
ment had been made in our prison discipline
during the last twenty years. When he looked back to
those days when such great philanthropists as Mr.
Howard exerted themselves ; when he looked back to
those days when every sort of disease rei.r,ned in those
prisons, and terminated the lives of the inmates
in greater numbers than on the scaffold ; and when he looked
at the small number of deaths which now occurred, he
had a right to think that a great improvement had taken
place in the government of prisons. For the Committee
for which he was about to ask there were precedents
without end. In 1822 a Committee was appointed in con-
sequence of great complaints of the administration of the ,
law ; the result of which was, the passing of what was
called the Gaol Act, which introduced great improve-
ments in prison 'discipline. In 1832 the House thought ,
proper to appoint another Committee to inquire into the
state of the prison discipline of that time ; that Commit-
tee reported that a greater uniformity of discipline should •
be carried out in the whole of the prisons of the country
Nothing ever was done on that point ; but, in 1835, a
Committee was appointed by the House of Lords, and
that Committee came to the following resolu-
tion : " That it is expedient that one uni-
form system of prison discipline be established
in all the gaols and houses of correction in Eng-
land and Wales, and that it is expedient in order to
the carrying out of this, that the plan proposed be sub-
mitted to the Secretary of State for his approval."
The importance of this question arose principally from
the great increase of crime which had taken place
within the last ten years in this country. Surely her
Majesty's Ministers were well aware of the amount of
that crime ; but he (Mr. buncombe) did not believe that
the House or the public were aware of the extent
of that crime ; and therefore he would, with the
permission of the House, repeat what the Reports of
the Select Committees upon Prisons had stated. By
the Report of the Committee in 1832, it appeared
that the commitments for the seven years from
1817 to 1824, in one particular pr:son were 56,308,
averaging 8,044 per annum. For the seven years suc-
ceeding 1824, the commitments amounted to 92,848,
averaging 13,264 per annum ; and in the seven years
ending 1831, the number increased to 121,000,
averaging 17,285 per annum. He then referred to the
Reports of the Inspectors of Prisons for 1838, 1839, and
1840 ; in 1838 the House should remember that for the
seven years previous to 1831, the committals
were 121,918 ; in 1838, they were 112,515 ;
in 1839, 112,812, being only a difference of 297
between 1838 and 1839 ; in 1840, which was
the last Report laid before the House, the number
amounted to 129,237, being 16,722, over
1838, and over 1831, 10 years preceding, at the
rate of 600 or 700 per cent. per annum ; surely that was
an alarming state of crime for the country to be in. It
was increasing every day, and it must certainly be worthy
of the consideration of Parliament.—(Hear). With that
increase of crime of course there was a proportionate
increase of expense ; the e xpenses, as appeared by the last
return for 1840, were 64,4071. more than for 1838.
What was the reason for this vast increase of crime ?
It had been attributed to various causes, but he was
inclined to attribute it, in the first place, to a general
want of education ; in the next place, to the want of
employment which produced great poverty and distress,
and forced the sufferers into the commission of crime, and
in some few instances to the vice and intemperance of the
persons themselves who had been committed to prison.
The general want of education was proved by
the returns made by the Registrars of Births,
Marriages, and Deaths.—(Hear.) From those re-
turns it appeared that 131,000 marriages had been
contracted last year, and that of the persons mar-
ried, 40,500 males, and 58,999 females could not write.
It was rather a remarkable fact, that the inhabitants
of Lancashire and Wales were the best educated,
and that in Devonshire 55 per cent. of the males, and 66
per cent. of the females were unable to sign their names.
That want of education was one great cause of the increase
in the criminal population was proved from the returns of
the commitments. Out of the whole number of persons
committed in the year 1840, amounting, as he had be-
fore stated, to 129,000 persons, 35,552 could neither
read nor write, and of the 60,000 persons summarily
convicted in the same period, 26,338 could neither
read nor write, 13,344 could read only, and 21,0(10
could write but very imperfectly. Many of
these persons had been committed under the
provisions of the Vagrant Act, and there was
one offence for which, in his opinion, if the House did
its duty, persons ought never to be committed to' pri-
son—he alluded to the offence of insubordination in
a workhouse, and many persons committed for the offence
of insubordination in a workhouse had, when in prison,
been treated in a most 'severe, cruel, and brutal manner.
(Hear, hear, hear.) The offence itself was a very
venial one; anti from the Commissioners' Reports it ap-
peared that many of the persons committed had been
treated with the utmost severity. At Ipswich it appeared
that one man, convicted of misconduct in a workhouse,
had been shut up in a refractory cell for a fortnight.
The Hon. Gentleman next referred to the severity of the
treatment of several children in Salford Gaol (as we un-
derstood) who suffered solitary confinement, and received
but the scantiest supply of food. The Magistrate who had
committed the parties—he did not know who he was—
took care that their friends should not visit these unfortu-
nate persons; and he should certainly say that the powers
given by the Act of Parliament had been violated in
these cases. The name of the Magistrate
should be given in order that if his con-
duct could not be justified, he might be held
up to merited reprobation. He would next refer
to a most interesting retort made by the Chaplain
of the Lewes House of Correction. That Gentle-
man had taken very great pains to ascertain
the descent and origin of those persons who inhabited
the gaol in question. He said that the result of his in-
vestigations convinced him that those parties were objects
rather of compassion than subjects for judicial regulations.
He found that out of 949 felons and vagrants, 57 were
children of paupers ; 28 were illegitimate ; 232 were or-
phans under nine years • of age ; 133 were or-
phans between nine and sixteen years old ; and
27 had been deserted both by father and mother.
Those children should not be made inmates of gaols,
where they were exposed to constant contamination.
If they took Capt. Wi:liains' report, they would
not be surprised at the great extent to which
crime prevailed in Manchester. He stated
that in walking through Manchester, he found
the public-houses open at a quarter past one in the
morning, and they were only closed on the appearance
of the police. They were crowded with men and women ;
many of the latter had infants in, their arms.
On descending into a cellar he was struck by
what appeared to him the unusual sight of the room
being papered, but on holding a lantern to the wall he
discovered that it was covered with an innumerable
quantity of bugs, which presented the appear-
ance of paper. Such was the state of the
manufacturing districts ; the case • was equally
bad in the rural districts. Let them look to
Cambridge, the seat of all that was orthodox and of
all that was learned. It was a disgrace to the country
that there should be a gaol in that town in
the condition in which it was described by the in-
' spectors. He knew that there was a Chancery suit
pending, but though that might be a good reason for
closing the doors, it was no excuse for the state in
which the prison was actually found. The Uni-
versity made no provision for the religious instruc-
tion of the inmates. A clergyman of King's Col-
lege had formerly attended, but had discontinued for
private reasons, since which no religious service had been
performed. There was no efficient discipline observed,
The prisoners passed much of their time over the fire,
engaged in obscene talk. One striking fact was, that ac-
coring to the return for 1834, there were three commit-
ments for each individual. The only provision which this
University had made consisted of religious tracts. These
statements were contained in the inspectors' reports. He
thought that, if true, they proved the necessity which there
was for inquiry. They proved that there was no unifcrm
system in the discipline and management of the prisons, and
that the recommendations of the House of Commons, in 1835,
had been in no respect attended to. It was impossible that
' there should be uniformity under the present system. Under
that system the Visiting Magistrates had the power of drawing
up certain rules ; those rules were submitted to the Secretary
' of State for his approbation, and different sets of rules were
approved for different parts of the country. He did not blame
either the Secretary of State or the Magistrates, but he blamed
the Legislature, who allowed such a system to be pursued.
He blamed that House, who did not grapple with the difficulty,
and lay down one general rule to be observed throughout all
the prisons in the country. He believed that such a rule would
be of great advantage both to the ends of justice and to the
prisoners themselves. It was totally impossible, at present,
that any Judge, in passing a sentence upon a prisoner, could
know precisely what amount of punishment that prisoner would
undergo. There was, in fact, a total want of uniformity, both
with regard to labour and diet. When an individual was put
to the treadmill, the amount of labour which he performed
must depend upon the number of hours, the height of the step,
and the rapidity of the rotation of the wheel. But if one in-
dividual was sentenced to six months' imprisonment with hard
labour in Devonshire, and another received a similar sentence
in Northumberland, here would be a great inequality in the
punishment inflicted by the two sentences.--( Hear, hear.) In
Exeter a prisoner was kept at the wheel for eight hours and a
half; the height of the step was eight inches, the number of
steps taken in a minute was twenty-four, making altogether an
ascent of 3,120 feet by that individual. In Newcastle-upon-
Tyne the number of hours was six, the height of the step was
ten inches, the number of the steps in the minute fifty-two,
and the prisoner performed altogether an ascent of 13,666 feet.
In Worcester, instead of being six hours atthe wheel, the priso-
ner was kept there ten hours and a quarter, the step was
seven and three-quarter inches, the number of steps
per minute forty-eight, and the ascent was 12,000 feet.
It was quite clear, then, that though the sentences were the
same, the punishment of one would often treble the amount of
punishment of another; this ought to be investigated. Then,
how did they stand with regard to diet? In some places,
where the labour was the hardest, the diet was the smallest
and the lowest. In the Bedford House of Correction, the
Aylesbury, and the Spring-field, the diet was very low, they
s had neither meat nor potatoes. In the Bedford House of Cor-

Mr. BANES wished to know if it was the intention
of the Right Hon. Baronet opposite (Sir R. Inglis)
to bring forward his Bill for Church Extension before
Easter.

Sir R. INGLIS said it was his intention to bring the
subject before Parliament during the present session, but
it was not his intention to bring the subject forward
before Easter, and he would give timely notice when he
would brinihr it forward.
IMPORTATION OF FLOUR FROM AMERICA.
Sir R. PEEL said that with regard to the question
put by the Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Thornely) last
night, and which he was not then able to answer,
he had now to state that he held in his hand
a paper which stated that a cargo of corn was
shipped from New York on the 3cl of August, and
arrived at Liverpool on the 13th of September.
Mr. THORNELY said that he also held in his hand a
letter from an individual, who stated that he left New
York via Halifax with a cargo, on the 4th of August,
and did not arrive in Liverpool till late in the following
month. He had been fifty-one days on the voyage, and
he missed the I Is. duty by being one day too late.
FRENCH POSSESSIONS IN AFRICA.
Mr. SHIEL begged to ask the Right Hon. Gentle-
man, Sir Robert Peel, if he could inform the House

whether the account given by M. Guizot in the French
Chambers of Deputies of a conversation alleged to have
been held by him with the Earl of Aberdeen, in reference
to the possessions of the French in Africa, were correct
or not.

Sir ROBERT PEEL thought that. the Right Hon.
Gentleman ought to have known that questions should
not be put on subjects of so much importance
without previous notice.—(Hear, hear, from the
Ministerial Benches.) However, as he happened to
be prepared to give an answer in the present case, it was
not of so much inconvenience as it might be on other
occasions of similar importance.—(Hear, hear.) His
Noble Friend the Earl of Aberdeen, did not admit the
accuracy of M. Guizot's account of the conversation
alluded to—(Hear, hear)—in reference to the occu-
pation ha no observat to
make upon that subject then
of part of Africa by the French. What the Earl
of Aberdeen said was, that he d ;
Hear, hear.
and not that he ionhd
no objection :o that occupation."— ()
COLONIAL PASSENGERS' BILL.
Mr. GLAI)STONE moved the postponement of the
Colonial Passengers' Bill ; and in answer to Mr. La-
bouchere, stated that the Bill was postponed, not for the
purpose of any material alteration, but to consult the
personal convenience of members.
After a few words from Lord JOHN RussELL, the Bill
was postponed.
PRISON DISCIPLINE.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE rose to bring forward his mo-
tion for an inquiry into the rules, regulations, and dis-
cipline of the several prisons and houses of correction
in England and Wales. He said he regretted that he did
not feel justified in deferring his motion, as it would not
only save the time of the House, but spare him the
pain of relating, and the House the pain of hearing those
statements of sorrow and distress which he should have
to make, and which could be but too well verified. • • He
could not entertain a doubt but the House would accede
to the motion. Looking at the vast importance of the
subject, and the questions it involved, he thought
he had a right to call on the House to agree
to his motion. But in calling on the House to
agree to it, he hoped, at all events, that whatever
might be their difference on other matters, as he had
brought forward the question with no hostile feelings to
feeling would enter into the dis-
cussion, called the attention of
single vote in its consideration.
Hc u
es swi oans,
wellor influence hoanystioinitey,,stohahtentruo
pstaerdtythat it would be received without
the House to the prison discipline of the country, whe-
raecethaat
ther he censured the present system as too severe, or said
that in some points it was not severe enough, he must
be exposed to the reproach of having too great a sym-
pathy with vice, or on the other hand that he was not
susceptible enough to human suffering, and did not make
allowances enough for humaa frailty. The question

•'
rection the allowance was only 224 ounces of bread and eight system, would institute an inquiry into its
... Meets' ,
ounces of cheese, and three pints of gruel per week. In some end demerits. He had trespassed on the --attentiori'So!
other prisons the diet was much better. Take Worcester for the House longer than perhaps he ought,. but bea
example, where, though the labour was hard, the diet was had such a body of evidence, and so many -complaints on Of
very good—there the allowance was , 172 ounces of bread, 24 subject, that he did not know where to begin or where to en-et
ounces of meat, 2lbs. of potatoes, four pints of soup, 14 pints of and he feared he had not said enough to induce the Eloastet
gruel, and Ilb. of suet-pudding per man per week. If the agree to his motion. —(llear. ) He trusted he might sac-e.
diet at Bedford were right the diet at Worcester iLust be ceed in inducing the House to grant him a Committee of
_r_
wrong.—( Hear, hear.) The diet at Aylesbury was very low, spiry, but whether he succeeded or no in impressing on,
.n,.1
and a complaint had been made relative to the tteatmedt of House the necessity of inquiry into the present system, 11:13,,ue
females with children at the breast. The inspector stated showing that the cruelty with which it was attended ofigh:l4
that when a woman went in with a child at the breast she had be redressed, he was at least satisfied that they would
no mote than the ordinary allowance, out of which she had to ample consolation -in having engaged to take into 'the'. cL
support herself and infant. The females in these prisons were sideration a subject of such importance and such hntelftniten i
subject to the most severe privations; and the quantity of diet (Cheers.) The Han. Gentleman concluded by moving
~,.4
was extremely small. The Hon. Gentleman then referred to Select Committee to inquire into the rules,orfegucolarrtei7ts;l-1:00
a statement of the quantity and nature of diet given to female ' discipline of tier seraeral Gaols and Houses
prisoners in the Coldbath-fields prison. But it might be said England and Waieee- to report what alterations appear tr.,
that the surgeon had a power to increase the quantity of food. necessary in die laws now in 'force for the gOns'efrdiiinle Airy;
Why the surgeon had always that power—but why was not a Prisons, in enter en insure a more uniform system
regular rule adopted for individuals in such circumstances. In throughout the witc/.13; and further, to report neon the
-.e:l 1;
the inspector's report it was stated that though a small quan- eieney of abolishing the infliction of corporal punishment, P'
tity of food might not be immediately injurious, yet it would i criminal offenders.
operate slowly, and come against the individual at some remote I On the motion being put,
period of time. He would now call the attention of the , Sir J. GRAHAM said he gave the Hon. Gentlenannlibeto;
House to the prison discipline of the United States, and there ' had just sat down, every credit for the humane motive'," and
they would find a much better system in operation. In the induced him to make the present- motion, and for the calln;st
Eastern. Peniten'iary the prisoner had a pint of coffee and temperate manner in which he brought it forward. ne._ ad,
three-quarters of a pound of brea I for breakfast, for dinner , cordially agreed ix the sentiment with which he opened bil:atm
o
he had meat and soup, and for supper he had Indian corn and dress, that this was not a party question, nor one which n?, it
molasses. The same, or as good a system prevailed ;be considered in such light.--( Hear.) And looking that he
in the other prisons of the Union.—( Hear, hear.) If the I without any such feelings, he must declare to the House `
fisd
House were to introduce the American system, he hoped was opposed to the appointment of a Committee. He Fee race,
that a better dietary than the present should be also intro- to see the Noble Lord, the Member for London, in his P, hid
dared. There was likewise not only a want of uniformity in because he had devoted grest attention to the subject, snetten•
labour and diet, but there was also a great want of uniformity rendered considerable service to the Government by the 0,
with regard to the religio is instruction which should be tion he devoted to it. By the Act of 1835 inspectors Wer;ut-al
afforded to the inmates of prisons in this country, and he pointed, and he (Sir James Graham) having stn `'eerge
thought also that the power which the gaolers possessed, and intercourse with the persons appointed to dieel!thst
the manner in which they used it, was most objectionable. He the important duties of that office; could stateode
had got statements here in the House from individuals who had it was impossible for a more judicious selection to be , tle
suffered greatly in consequence of the arbitrary and cruel con- than the gentlemen who were appointed.—e Hear, hear.) Act
duct of gaolers. In one instance, with the particulars of which would now point out the course of proceeding under tow
oof
he (Mr. Duncombe) had been furnished, a boy was put into a of 1835. Four times in every year every gaol and I°l,
refractory cell in the depth of winter for quarelling with an- correction was visited by responsible officers of Goverrseeres
other boy—he was kept there for three days without fire, and tnd reports of a confidential nature were made to the
.• v•te•
with nothing on him but a rug—at the end of that time he tary of State. Every year, moreover, a full report ira'i;e of
had actually lost two of his tees from the excessive cold he had pared by each inspector, in reference to each gaol and lt:its
suffered, and he ultimately became a cripple for life.—( Hear, correction, giving details of everything discovered cotrlte'itee
hear.) All that punishment was inflicted for a very trifling the Act of Parliament, and these reports were laid trjesce
offence indeed. . table of both Houses of Parliament. What was the coneor Sow .
An Hoes. Memeee. on the Ministerial benches—What is the of such a practice? It was that the utmost publicitY of
name ? given to everything connected with the gaols and belle,
Mr. DUNCOMI3E said the name was William Griffith; the correction; and light was not only thrown upon their wet,
boy had haltered so much that he was not able to be tried but the greatest publicity was given, and discussion, if not
when the Court. sat, and the result was that he was kept in sary, ensued,—(Hear, hear.) The House should ree° to
prison for three months longer than he should have been kept, that, in consequence of that publicity, a check existed upon Ib'
in order that he might be sufficiently recovered to be taken proceedings that might arise within the prison no
from the cell to the place of trial. There were several other The consequence of the absence of direct enactment wive be
instances of equal hardship in other prisons—there was the ease want of uniformity in the proceedings of these gaols. .ee
of John Riley, who was confined in the Wakefield House of Noble Lord opposite, when he was Secretary of State,' w',l
Correction. The fact .had already been represented to Lord infinite care, assiduity, and labour, framed one general nindey
Normanby. It appeared that when the prisoners were in the regulation, which, after consulting the prison inspecteteel'ea
yards at work, they were not allowed to turn their heads to the thought on the whole would be most conducive to the "e Beet
right or to the left—much less to speak. However, to that he gulation of the gaols throughout the kingdom ; and rhe es'
(Mr. Duncombe) did not object, as the silent system was ap- say he thought the course adopted by the Noble Lord in tics
proved of. This man Riley was affected with asthma. He formity with the decision of the Legislature, was thatet,o
was told when in the yard that he was not to move or turn his was most expedient and practicable. The Noble L
...,,
head, nor yet to expectorate. Now, as Riley was affected with Secretary of state, recommended the adoption of certain 700
asthma, it was necessary for him to expectorate. He was not lations, though he had no power to enforce them; and
abet
allowed to expectorate for twelve weeks ; and the consequence where those regulations had not been entirely adopted :of
was that his throat and chest swelled in such a manner that his had been adopted to a great extent. A most salutarYt to
life was despaired of.—(Hear, hear. ) When the case was first had been given to the Secretary of State with refereo7o.
related to him (Mr. T. Duncombe), he almost felt inclined to prison regulations ; for though he had not the power:ol,r
doubt whether it could be true. He laid the case before the forcing regulations, but could only recommend them fof trio
Marquis of Normanby. The Home-office instituted an inquiry, tion, the power of recommending had been combined WiTeeet
and Lord Nermanby directed, if the allegatioes should turn exercise of a veto in cases where the recommendation ,w7estse
out to be correct, that the prisoner should be imme- adopted, and this double power had had the effect of prOn:teee
diately released. He (Mr. T. Duncombe) at the same much greater uniformity than exeisted under the old 'Si' . •
time, wrote to a gentleman, living in the neighbourhood of He would state to the House, the counties in which the, ei
Wakefield, to inquire if this could possibly be true. The next lations which had been recommended were adopted •
eer r
post brought the man's release. What had been stated in rela- were adopted in Bedford, Cornwall, Carnarvon, Car'. ,ere
tion to this poor man was but too true. The gentleman to Chester, Gloucester, Hants, Hereford, Lancaster, Letelet
whom he (Mr. T. Duncombe) had written, replied that the Lincoln, Nottingham, Kent, Middlesex, Norfolk, Oeeet
statement was true, that the man had been prevented from ex- Somerset, Pembroke, Salop, Surrey, Suffolk, Wins', bee
pectorating for twelve weeks—that since his release, as he was Yorkshire. In all these countries the code teete
enabled to expectorate, his health had been better, but that mended by the Secretary of State had been ad, Os
the swelling in the throat still continued, and that it would be without variation. Now, that was a great approxit -ea
a long time before he recovered from the effects of the toreite to uniformity.—(Hear, hear.) ' The Honourable Gentglei
he had undergone in the Wakefield House of Correction.— had dwelt upon the state of crime for the last ten years. tehbil.
( Hear, hear.) Now, with regard to the spiritual instruction of before him, as the result of a regulation made by. the MIO
the prisoners. He would relate to the House what was the Lord opposite at the Home-office,. a valuable register eles
practice in the prison at Salford; and his Hon. Friend the Mem- number of persons committed for trial. He would state Ittje
ber for Salford was ready to corroborate his statement. It ap- House the number of committals for trial before 183.5, ,1;•01
peered that there were 131 Roman Catholics among the pri- the improved discipline commenced under the Act to Wh' ele
soner3 in that prison. The Visiting Magistrates had made re- had already referred, and which had been followed up by olio
gulations which at first sight appeared well calculated to secure quent enactments introduced by the Noble Lord opposite• os
to the Roman Catholic prisoners the right of seeing their priests, number of persons committed for trial in the year 1830 tor
and receiving spiritual consolation from them, but these regula- 18,657, or one in every 744 of the population. The inBotl
' tions vs ere rendered of no effect by the conduct of the officers of committed for trial in 1840 was 27,187, or one in every b. go
the prison. It was with great regret that he (Mr. T. D.) the population, showing an increase of 45 per cent. Ass
said anything that could be considered as casting any reflec- Honourable Gentleman, in order to make out his state !N"
lion on the chaplain of that prison ; but it seemed that that that crime in the course of the last ten years had increaCdoo,
Rev. Gentlemen was actuated by hostile feelings to the Ro- per cent. had included summary convictions in his calcuneeso
man Catholics—in fact, his feelings almost amounted to per-, but he (Sir J. Graham) had purposely omitted them,h7tei'
sooal antipathy to persons of that religion. It seemed that the commitments for trial included all crimes of any tilesisir
the Rev. tientiernan was in the habit of preaching contro- rude, and afforded a much more certain base on which tee 6000
versial sermons in the chapel of the prison—sermons in- late the comparative increase or diminution of crime, awe, eel
tended, not only to show the superiority of the Protes that it appeared that the increase within the last ten yearle.
tent over the Roman Catholic faith, but holding out indi- been 45 per cent., and nut 600 per cent., as had been rviTtbe
viduals professing tl.e Roman Catholic religion as persons sented by the Hon. Gentleman. He now wished to direceeted_
to be avoided ; and th re was one instance of a prisoner, a attention of the House to what had been the practical ti; di'
Protestant, saying to the turnkey, at the conclusion of one of the recent improvements in prison discipline. In 161.70 I,
these controversial discourses, oDo ask the chaplain to number of commitments for trial amounted to -27,731, eli'esesti
preach that sermon over again, for it makes our Roman Ca- 1840 they amounted to 37,187; so that, although the:elsor
tholic fellow-prisoners as mad as blazes."—( Hear, hear, and been an increase of 45 per cent. upon the period of te,t 01
a laugh.) Now he (Mr. Duncombe) would ask if that were yet during the last five years there had been a reductle",•se/
the way to administer spiritual instruction ? And was it pos. 45 per cent. to 30 per cent. He regretted as much ,nee fr
Bible to anticipate any reformation from such bigotry and in- man could the increase of crime ; he admitted it,- netal'itie
tolerance? The Reverend Mr. M'Carthy, who made those gretted it, but at the same time he thought it was more
etatements, added that no Roman Catholic priests were ad- reut than real. He attributed'this increase to several ca
milted to see the prisoners in the prison in question. They had first, to the increase of population, our population having' de_
repeatedly made a request to that effect oftheeiovernor to the gaol, the last ten years increased 14 per cent ; in the next P. t`
to the turnkey and to the chaplain, but in only two cases had to the increased efficiency of our policees tablisholeber
they succeeded ; and they were then told that they should not was beyond a doubt that there were a large . cite
have had access to the prisoners, were it not that they had said of crimes which formerly were committed with gur;it,sf:
that they wanted to consult their clergyman as to their de- in consequence of the difficulty of detection, the P,lfeee 's
fence. In his opinion no governor or chaplain should be en- of which were now frequently discovered and ern. kos,
trusted with the power which had been thus abused. There punishment, in consequence of the increased efficierskelio,e,
was another subject, and it was one of a most painful nature, to police force. Those persons were now frequently „ eeee doe'
which he wished to call the attention of the Hoesee_he meant commitment followed detection, and conviction ft"',hie ',lis,'
the infliction of corporal punishment upon criminal offenders. mitment, much more frequently than formerly. !,":660 °'
He thought that if he could succeed in obtaining a Committee tributed to the salutary effect produced by the Inttig-sfeetii:
that would be a proper subject for its inquiry. He did riot our criminal code, in consequence of which these,6 t
ask the House to express an opinion as to the expediency of longer that unwillingsyss, on the pert of parties ioreietee!
abolishing corporal punishment altogether; he only asked them prosecute, nor on the part of Juries to convict, for 0101110,
Ito institute an inquiry into the subject. He believed that felt assured that the prisoner would receive a proper lisst
most persons admitted that that was a description of pu- ment, and no more than a proper one ; and he rejotee74lers
nishment which ought never be inflicted upon adults ; salutary effect thus produced by the mitigation of our.S)ll3°
while all practical men of the highest authority were in favour code. Another alteration, which had been introdneno:
of its complete abolition. Perhaps the House was not aware of years since, by his Right Hon. Friend the • Member 47eA, es"
the number of eases in which corporal punishment had been worth, by which one half of the expense of the eriogiculsWely
inflicted of late years. In the year 1838 there had been 939 in all cases, defrayed out of the public purse, bad NWT_ el
of these cases; in the year 1839 there had been 1,026 cases ; ded materially to increase the number of preseentiettfe_eies 0,
and in the yea • 1640—the last year for which there had been were the reasons why there had been an 'apparent ineet:gifer,
any returns—the number of cases amounted to 1,207. It crime within the last ten years. The HMI: ' 674str
appeared, however, that in the year 1828 there were but 222 i'had referred to the want of education -as one ,Itoce,
j cases of corporal punishraeat ; in 1829 there had been 336 , causes of increase of crime. No man deplored theriMon
' caves; and in 1830 there had been 3e4 cases, making for those of the great mass of the population more than he (Sit tee
three years only 942 cases, which was less than the number in Graham) did. With reference to the public morals, TieSi,l
the single year 1840. It appeared from the report of Inspector ference to the public safety, no man could be more ittit.,
Williams, that in some prisons a scourge was used similar to convinced than lie. was of the absolute necessity for o:iee r
that used in the army ; in others it was a scourge similar to sion of education among all classes of the community i .041
that used in the navy ; in others, it was a simple rod ; but he any measure which it might be his duty to bring fers!retine't
had in some prisons found scourges of a very improper descripe reference to the condition of the pauper population, h „orte,
tion. In Swaffham, where the handle of the scourge consider it his duty not to lose sight of that very 3114.00°
consi,ted of whalebone, the keeper himself inflicted the subject. It would be impossible for him to follow themeetti
punishment. fhe number of lashes was not specified, but Hon. Gentleman into all the cases to which he hedr7„-111.,
the sentence was, that the person "should be whipped until He thought, therefore, that it would be most desiraPitteito
his back was blooded." No medical man was in attendance. he should, with the permission of the House, point l's,eo
Now with regard to that case at Salford, where an individual general course, both of the Legislature and the Execnt'sof etl
be
had been taker, out of his bed and lashed. On June 2d, he was vernment, upon that important subject. He wodideeeetr
taken out of his d and his sentence carried into effect, pre- tempt to say that some abuses had not taken place, as
,ItTeetsii
vious to his discharge the next morning. Could is. be right to out by the Honourable Gentleman ; bat he was quite. 11t'
f
keep a prisoner thus in suspense ? Instead of going to bed re- that those abuses were in course of gradual diminut ion
if sll° ?
joicing in the expectation of being released on the following effective checks were now applied to them; and do'
morning, he thinks only of the punishment he is to undergo Legislature would but steadily adhere to the coUrSO ipie
I previous to quitting his place of confinement. Could he leave within the last six or seven years of progressive legitoil
the prison with any other feeling but revenge ? If he (Mr. coupled with the constant check of the executive rintnitifsj
Duncombe ) w ere In take the opinions of those who were deeply they would arrive at the most desirable result; an u
and well acquainted with these matters, he should take the opi- uniformity of system, and a really effective and well e,
nion of the Chaplain of the Devizes House of Correction, as de- discipline. He should observe that the curet to •
_.,,0r
livered in his report to-the Chairman of the Quarter Sessions. Hon. Gentleman had referred, had taken place two Yr'4,lol
In that report he commenced by saying that hot trusted he should and were cases referred to in the fourth Report of 11
not be considered out of order, or as going beyond his duty, inspectors. But abuses had since been of mach less 1);
when he stated his belief that the punishment awarded to pri-• occurrence, in consequence of the superintendence_ et_,
soners previous to their discharge from confinement wee prison inspectors, and the constant vigilance of the Seegli
most essentially bad ; during the prisoner's confine- of State for the Home Department. He did not lit "WO,
ment, he might perhaps have been made aware of that statement, mean to take any credit to himself
iiiiet
the sin and folly of his former course, and his heart been but a short time in office, and he .511_,1,1450fr0
might have been softened; but previous to his leaving the that the inquiry he had made into the matter only tau F" t
prison, h•s flesh must he torn and lacerated by the lash. The that upon the present subject he had nothing to do but Lifer
report went onto state that the writer had many times noticed to adhere to the line taken by his predecessors.-"( etto°,
the countenances of the people to be cast down and dejected hear.) In September last, immediately after he lor„,e,',',
for some days previous to their dismissal, and all his efforts to into office, the sixth annual Report of the Prisons' bl'tre,sfier,o
recal them to a conviction of their duties had been ineffectual, had been published. The Hon. Gentleman oppe" 'e=ve
• and the man leaves the prison is degraded and a hardened sin- Member for Lambeth, who had taken much interest e,A
nor. The report concluded by expressing the greatest horror subject, had called upon him on that occasion, and poin;is
ot,
at all corporal punishmenti. There was only more instance some improvements in the manner of dealing with be fiar
with which he should trouble the House on this part ports of the inspectors; and upon the suggestions of t r?
of his address. It took place in the gaol of Lan. Gentleman he ( Sir J. Graham) had acted. The 0
caster, for insubordination, and breach of prison discipline. were very voluminous; and he had called upon the in•ieete..o
The case was as follows :—The prisoner objected to his hod, to subdivide their report into three parts ; first, theYe Jere
and called on the gaoler to send for one of the Visiting Magis- point out any matters to which the Secretary of Stetwereve
trates. This the gaoler did not do, and paid no attention to devote his particular attention ; next, they 019
his complaint; the prisoner said he would not be locked up indicate any. matters within his control, upon,oo,4t
unless his food was improved, or a Visiting Magistrate was sent in their opinion, he ought to remonstrate r", fv,:et
for; great confusion took place in the prison, in consequence with the Magistrates; and thirdly, they were rieof
of which the Visiting Magistrate arrived the next day ; the out any matters which, in their opinion requiro.sfee
gaoler reported the case of the prisoner, and he was sentenced legislative interference. They had at once, with gteelt.Atie
to receive twelve dozen lashes on his bare back. Then came and promptitude, acted upon these suggestions. He,esseed
that account of the punishment. He was punished in the in- wards written to the Magistrates, anti pointed out tourelief et
snecting-room, in the presence of all the prisoners of the ward. statements of the Inspectors ; the Magistrates tun"eiet 00'
Previous to the day fixed for the punishment the chaplain had large and free admission of several irregularitiei, 4 retie
been conversing with the, prisoners, requesting them to case was there a refusal, on their part, to adopt t'' saint
act with propriety during the ceremony of which they mendation suggested to them. They stated, hoe moos
were about to be the painful spectators. When the they were unable to carry out at once ail that was ti,pfior
culprit was brought forth, and the prisoners ranged them upon the subject of prison discipline. A very !diet,
round the room, the most perfect order and tran. portion of the improvement in discipline rested upon hessiit
quillity prevailed, every eye was intently fixed upon the tion of the separate system of confinement. Now, ye Ilife'sti
unfortunate culprit, and tears were observed to course down Gentleman opposite appeared, in a good deal of 'wit ttirest
the cheeks of many of the beholders. It was said that such said, to have confounded the separate system with tiLeolf'-/
punishment was inflicted for the benefit of the Crown pri- system. The solitary system was no doubt open Le 70,eied
soners, but he would ask whether such scenes were to be per.. abuses, and required the utmost discretion in its soli lot 0
milted, or whether they were likely to be causes of reforma- (Hear, hear.) He agreed with the Hon. Gentlennictlioi
Lion?--( Hear, hear.) He had a return from Warwickshire of solitary system, if pushed to excess, coupling le* eie‘te
persons confined in the Houses of Correction there, from the close confinement, might operate most prejudicial i.'0001;01
age of twenty years and upwards, and from the Ist of Fe- dangerously. upon many temperaments ; and he 1/1,1,001,1,e
bruary, 1840, to the Ist of February, 1842. By that return pared to vindicate its adoption by a square rule, r, to
he found seven persons were flogged in Warwick Castle, five reference to particular subjects ; and he was sure tir tdf
in Warwick gaol, of whom four bad been sentenced by a Re- gislature had not considered the matter in su_e'la 100,,de
verend Gentleman. He would ask if it were right that a The Legislature had decided that in no case shu,n„fasnot
single Magistrate, and he a minister of the Gospel, should have confinement be inflicted fur more than one triont7;tete
the power to order such punishment ? If a Committee were and that the same person should not be subjecteuvieg:eit
appointed he would like that that gentleman should be exa- more than three months in the space of a year.
„oath,
mined as to the motives that induced him to award such punish- Gentleman had stated that at Ipswieh the surgeon 00;."vd!
ment.—( Hear, hear.) No doubt he had reasons, and he might visited parties undergoing the punishment in tines ;.,!iidfV
convince him (Mr. D.) of the utility of corporal punish- that was clearly a violation of the law at which he l vijda O.
ment ; but until he heard such reasons he would consider Graham) could not but feel surprised. The law Prot iii es,
that so brutalising a system should be abolished.—( Hear.) where solitary confinement was inflicted, the g0ve;04,!,,,a
He now begged to refer to, the principle of solitary confine- chaplain should visit the prisoner once a day .00d,''',,
separate
epo-fy
ment, and he found that system recommended by two of the about to point nut the difference between
Inspectors, and condemned by the third. It was recommended and the solitary system. He held in his hand all
Atiewtret'eet,
by Inspectors Crawford and Russell, and condemned by Mr. circular letter, written by. the Noble Lord, the 00,
Williams, and he ( Mr. Duncombe ) thought that, however London, in which the distinction between the two p ~,,0 13
letter be, see',
well it might look, the system of solitary confinement was one was plainly and clearly pointed out ;of that t care feli,
' that wouldnot be acceptable to the people of this country.— read one or two sentences. It stated that " great et Irttedil,
(Hear, hear.) There was a model prison in the Milbank Pe- ,be taken when the system was put into operatL neat, gen it:,
netentiary for the purpose of carrying out the principle of soli- I found separate with solitary imprisonment. It d!,
tary confinement, but the result was, that they were obliged to I understood that solitary imprisonment implieden _ an Is tr,
relax the regulations, in consequence of eight persons being , gloomy and narrow cell, without any oecupa "'
leciment:°!, ell
attacked with insanity. That model was erected upon the 'of bread and water only. ' Separate impriso loge, 1,.,,
principle of that which existed in Philadelphia, in the United other hand, implied confinement in a
_;th onotsesti;
States ; but the Report of the Commission instituted by the lighted, well warmed, and well ventilated cell, 7'_nathe ~gi,
Legislature of Lower Canada in 1836, to investiate the diffe- religious instruction, and regular employment's! ereet;ier,
rent systems in operation there, decided against the system visits of the chaplain." Now, it was necessary "'elicit elitA
pursued in Philadelphia. The Hon. Gentleman then quoted rate cells in the different prisons, in order to carry `eforatios:
the opinion of Dr. Parsons, who stated that, though in many into operation ; and the Magistrates wished h testee V;
of the cases the prisoners might be predisposed to insanity, yet had incurred such an expense they should haves. l'A.O IA
the cases were too numerous to justify him in saying that all experience of the operation of these systems.
Lee n'es
who were attacked had been predisposed to it. The Hon. had been appointed by the Noble Lord.oa
_, eo:001
Gentleman then referred to the testimony of Captain Hall for London to superintend the erection
1"
the ite'
against the system of solitary confinement. He trusted that any kind in the different gaols
lit of his ore
her Majesty's Government, before they decided on such a He gave them a plan gratuitously, the rein •

,9 nients
entiOii 'of
-but be
its on tbe
re tl end,
Itiousb to
light stiP'
:tee of In-
ig on 0,6
Snl
ought t 0
onld 140
their Ott,
rind tit
ions; 117
tetioti irt
wit, tilt*
rtittioigof
diselpliPe
the !icile"
vent upon

Ditto wb°
yem which
carol 1111
He In°S.
sd•

Wi*h had been acted on in many large towns. At this mo-
Ment 41. Bertf, rl a new gaol had been built. At Bath a new
one was just completed. In Hertford, Peterborough, Scar-
/4:l°qt', Wilts, Bucks, Chichester, Reading, Penzance,
Tewkesbury, and Plymouth, new gaols were abut to be built..
In Bedford, Carlisle, Leicester, Wakefield, Stafford, Bucks,
aid other places, the gaols were being enlarged. This showed
that the matter was not stationary, and that there was a desire
onaith oet,_part of the Government to do that which would tend
the improvement in prisons. Toe Hon. Gentleman
lirratke dwelt with some emphasis on the variation in the
nt ?f hard labour and diet. With regard to the
4ctuide:rkeince
nut nerd labour, he (Sir J. Graha) admitted that teetwiterent
,diff • emutruction of the treadmills inn the eGuntry, and
in the time of remaining on them, did cau-e a
Isatt,..tit I"e.variation and punishment ; but this was the ve..y
Which the Government had instituted inquiries, and
fiband progressively the variations would be.
; adteed
es at least to be unworthy of notice
bom r.esPect to diet also, the Government had not abstained
BlembullirY• The very cases quoted by the Honourable
to made
el', merely showed how vigorously l
nvestigations had
t._ Made by the Government. The Hn. entleman men-
cei_a,eci the ease of a mother with a child at the breast not re-
th:l4lt sufficient support, but he stated, at the same time, th. at
Zemitary of State for the Home Department actually in-
itigated matter—( Hear, hear)--and he (Sir J. Graham)
11'4
show the that a stronger case could have been adduced to
at the G

ed his -lin at Ivernment was not allowing this matter to re
should rsitstlte rest. He did think it a strong proof that a case so
• upon eutherts. ould be brought under the inspection of a suprema
e thattoi :ern
espec.est traa:adm)that the supreme authority should inter-
test g smn 0 the course of the last two months, he (Ssir
place had received Reports from the Prison
so its was :°rs complaining that the diet in some prisons
etteo" to the " lOW. These cases he had alwass forwarded
ere 53' *bum Visiting Magistrates, accompanied by his opinion that it
ter be desirable to make inquiries into the diet at the ilif-
- eat Pris
the v, ono, and in every case, he was happy to say, that
• tbot to his biting Magistrate, had shown every disposition to attend
mode e •
. eelittr suggestions. There was another very important matter
sttidi Te to solitary confinement. He was sure that having
, • Keed,the matter, as he could sec the Hon. Gentleman op-
f
,e. o •
ejteulard also done, he might, perhaps, be allowed to read a
s.inss,ued .by the Commissioners on that point. The
/eloight.
Gentleman proceeded to read the circular, which
ned rules and regulations for the carrying the punish-
ref prreLof solitary confinement into effect. It stated that every
'to • 407" should contain a certain number of cells; that they
, .be light and well bedded ; that the prisoners should
~jttuoject
, to the discretion of the surgeon, and Le provided
• • t,,,while those who could not read should be visited by
...ii,it'neolmaster, or such person as might be capable of
leaning
thg them instruction ; that they should take exercise
\47.4Peti air, and be supplied with work at the discretion of
Magistrates. Now, continued the Right Hon.
Zatrill t, be rejoiced at the policy which had led to the diminu-
-4f the infliction of capital punishments in this country.
the
amelioration of criminal punishment might be carried
kisreat an extent. They might go on relsaing their
Itig7 ts great
till they arrived at a point at which crime
, to r almost be receiving a premium. He was quite opposed
. of :47:11ing resembling cruelty, but their prisons must be places
tioQnshrtient, and they must not carry the mitigation of their
ttons beyond that point. The Hon. Gentleman had
• kid that of America. Now he had unders•ood from Mr. Craw-
elm4ne of the Inspectors of Prisons, that the prison disci-
eiesis 'll America was more severe than our own, espe•
thesell with regard to corporal punishment, which was in-
an 41 the discretion of the officers of the prison,
•He h., extent that would not be tolerated in England.
power that the power of gaolers, like all other arbitrary
Itoet' liable to abuse, which could only be checked by
Illesoe7t superintendence—( Hear)—and from all that be had
' I.tishm'S that superintendence was for the most part sufficiently
wirtied and the system of rison discipline general, while
adap:ed to maintain the rigour of the laws, was re-
Veer,' 'upon principles of mercy.—( Hear, hear.) With re-
,•epii 10 the silent system he was not prepared to give a decided
Lot:4; but he was not inclined to agree with the Noble
liesdn4PPosite, that there were great objections to it, that it
lerjoueed great irritation, and could not be enforced without
yett. ;$ extra, punishments.—( Hear hear.) He had learned
essa .41, the Wakefield House of Correction prisoners before
the
subjected to the silent system. Now he thought
et, 'Be presumption should be that the untried persons
innocent, and should not be subjected to pu-
staciltt whereas compulsory silence was a seriou
trient.—( Hear, hear, hear.) He communicated this
5,_,10 the Magistrates, and the practice which he
et' to was immediately given up.—( tiear, hear.) With
set to Salford gaol, in which there were many Catholics, he
lot received any report of the abuse which the Hon. Mem-
?(ike as But he must say that. if admission was refused
Aolic clergymen to visit and administer spiritual comfort
toners of their persuasion, it was not only cruel, and
be tolerated for an instant, but it was absolutely unlawful
as aga nit the express provisions of a statute. The te-
es stated that persons visiting prisoners should do so un-
ain restrictions ; but if those operated to prevent pri-
trom receiving religious education, when they did not
° the Established Church, he should condemn them.
Twat punishment, it was true that the power of order•
given to the Visiting Magistrates, but mark how spar-
es used. In !MO the total number of male adults in
a of England and Wales was 69,428, say in round
0,000. The Hon. Gentleman said there had been
of corporal punishment in that year, but he did not
de adults, and (Sir J. Graham) really thought that
',juvenile prisoner violating rules, a slight personal
t was a very proper and even salutary proceeding ;
g to those 70,000 male adults he found that
" of inflictions of corporal punishment did
seven. So the returns stated.—( Hear, hear. )
S. Gentleman would ask him, after all, why he
ry? Now, he would tell the Hon. Gentleman
thought the House would have come to the con-
deli he himself had come, that progressively,
urely they were arriving at an improved state of
ein this country. The Executive Government
to that House ; he was at that moment afford
of their responsibility. He believed that the
a Committee would lead to a disturbance of
ich he was anxious to maintain for the present
he change of persons at the Home-Office, had
ge in the principles which guided the Go-
subject.—( Hear, hear.) He entreated the
irb the present system. If any Gentleman
afore the house a particulir case for its con-
tacts of that case be stated and investigated.
is would be far more conducive to the public
appointment of a Committee. Under these
trusted that the House would reject the
said he -was sure the information which
to Secretary df State for the Home Depart-
A.must be gratifying to him. He heard
oge: whatever in that department of the
—As related to that particular matter.
Yes, as related to that particular matter.
on trecisely as it did before; all the
the Noble Lord were faithfully adopted,
was such that it was highly desirable
ge. Now it had been said by a great
tri.ers, that the merits of great men
til they were dead.—(Lsughter. ) In
t political suicide, at all events, was a
liter.) The Noble Lord lived to hear
was dead—it was " the late Seers-
ate Secretary of State had the plea-
mmendations from a quarter from
expect. He was sure that the Noble
1 commendations from such a bio.
he Right Hon. Gentleman opposite
se with regard to what was passing
t existed. That night, however,
had spoken in a different manner ;
and most liberal in the coul-
d bestowed on the, late Se-
me Department. —( Hear, hear.)
mentively, in order to as. ertain
stem of governing prisons wh eh
ould condemn ; but it appeared,
research—after the most atten-
letting investigation which he
he question then under discus-
tdemn, nothing to alter, in the
tment had pursued.—( Hear. )
s Gentleman had not said that
of the House.—( Hear, hear. )
tad he trusted that the Right
sinced, before • the discussion
tisfactory answer to his Hon.
id ask, to continually barrow
uch representations as had
He was willing to trust to
tate. He believed that he
tiv and faithfully, but. after
trates, he thought it was
care.—(Hear,_ hear.) If
uthority, the House ought
on, and give poor prisoners
opinion. such a state of
t for another week. Look
Sere the chaplain had not
refused to do so by order
quietly under such state-
continue, it was impos-
tain any portion of
enths of the crimes
Colleague had vtry
ace and to poverty.
lature that there were
7 to be objects of com-
e improvement in the
t said, existed rather
on of capital punish-
(Cheers)—but with-
fling savages in the
st he had ever held
he body of a black,
tropolis in a state of
tate of destitution,
trd labour, to the
hat man, a native
the tread-mill on
ha had elapsed he
on in giving it as
ce passed against
mill was exposed
fter the man had
bench, exposed
I, and he died.
rtes might have
might be some
er. Why the
's punishment
In another
open shop in
imprisonment
ed in solitary
o the House.
an was sen-
any out of a
rtation for
Another
iley) from
f bed a
about the
tis knees,
child out
ruffian.
,r death,
a mitt-
s found
an was
rosy out
tan and
snmettt
admi-
teople.
right
of the
Hon.
,oken
suld
tulti
it a
ials
le-

• port of a Committee, to proceed to enact measures that would sr
adjust the law, and relieve prisoners from the cruelty and
degradation they now suffered..
Sir C. DOUGLAS said that with respect to his friend the
clergyman, to whom allusion had been made. no man could
have better discharged his duties, both as a clergyman and a
Magistrate, than that Rev. Gentleman. The Hon. Gentle-
man opposite had said he wished that that clergyman were
summoned and examined at the bar of the House. Ha ( Sir
C. Douglas) also wished he were examined at the bar, when
an opportunity would be afforded him of vindicating his cha-
racter. In a paper which he (Sir C. Douglas) held in his
hand, that Rev. Gentleman stated that only in extremely ag-
gravated cases was recourse had to severity, and he laid it
down as a general principle that mitigation of the penalty in.
creased the repetition of the offence.
Mr. HAWES would only address a few observations to the
House, because he felt himself under the necessity of op-
posing the motion of his Honourable Friend. The Nun.
Member having founded his motion entirely on the Report of
the Prison Inspectors, who had full opportunity of visiting the
gaols and prisons, it was a better means of arriving at good le-
gislation than any inquiry the House could conduct. He re-
joiced to find that the subject had received so much of the at-
tention of the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite. At the com-
mencement of the last Session he had called the attent ion of
the Right Hon. baronet to a portion of a Report that lead been
laid on the table of the House, and he was bound to say that
he had paid him every consideration. He trusted, therefore,
after what had fallen from him, that the inquire he had evi-
dently made would be attended with some advantage. He
thought great and unnecessary prejudice had been raised
against the system of separate confinement ; by confounding it
with solitary confinement, against. which there was a well-
founded objection both in America. He read an extract
from the last Report of the American Inspectors of
Prisons, showing that the ill effects consequent. on solitary
confinement, had not followed on separate confinement. By
means of the Visiting Magistrates, the inspectors of prisons, and
the notice that might be taken of their Reports in the House
by a Member of Parliament, there were facilities for de-
tecting abuses in prison management that had never existed
before. Some regret had been expressed that there was not
an uniformity of discipline, but when it was proposed to give
to the Secretary of State some stringent powers
of enforcing such an uniformity, it was strongly
objected to by the House, and it was hardly fair to turn round
and blame the Secretary of State for a want of that uniformity
which he had nut the power to enforce. In the case of the
Penitentiary that had been referred to, he thought much of the
distressing and unfortunate results that had taken place, might
have been avoided if the prison had b en more immediately
under the power of the executive. He explained that, in op-
posing the motion, he believed the Hon. Gentleman was more
likely to accomplish his intentions by acting on the report of
the inspectors, and building gradual improvements on their in-
formation, than by appointing a committee. He concluded by
paying a high tribute of praise to the ability and general spirit
of the speech of the Home Secretary.
Lord MAHON concurred in the concluding sentence of
the Hon. Member for Lambeth, who had truly said that the
speech of his Right Hon. Friend would give great satisfaction
to the country.—( Hear, hear.) And he thought that his
Right Hon. Friend had given good reasons for refusing the
Committee. He thought that the reports of the Prison In-
spectors showed that there was a gradual and progressive re-
form in the Government prisons. But he apprehended that
whatever improvement might be effected, whilst there
was in this country the punishment of imprisonment
for a term of years, nothing like a perfect system
would be introduced. To whatever country they looked
they found everywhere the most lamentable deficien.ies
Opposed to the silent system was that of general communica-
tion of the prisoners; and to it also there were the greatest
objections. In the gaol of Bedford, as appeared from the re-
port of the Inspector for last year, it was stated that the most
deplorable moral evils were occasioned by the unrestricted com-
munication of the prisoners. A number of persons were
brought in last year, in such a lamentable state of ignorance
that they did not know the name of the Saviour—( Hear)—
and the meritorious efforts of the chaplain to remove that ig-
norance were counteracted by the contaminating example of
the prisoners. Two of the latter passed the whole of the time
in swearing and other misconduct, to distract the attention of
a third, who was endeavouring to read a religious book ;
and others of them tore up the prayer-books that were
given them, to make instruments of. gambling.—(Hear.)
He had a paper from the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancas-
ter, which gave an account of John Taylor, who was confined
in Monmouth goal in solitary imprisonment. At the end of a
few days he was dead ; a Coroner's inquest sat on his body ; it
was proved that the unfortunate man bad not committed
suicide, but that he died from depression of spirits, and a fear,
that being left alone, he would be haunted by ghosts—a feel-
ing that exercised great terror over ignorant people. There
was also, in the sixth Report of the Inspectors of Prisons, an
account of a young woman in Bristol Bridewell, who, not-
withstanding her entreaties not to be left alone, being locked
up in solitary confinement, twice attempted suicide. He
(Lord Mahon) had been lately told, by a most respectable
Magistrate, that to his own knowledge he had seen no less
than six cases of suicide in tho City of London which had re-
sulted from solitary confinement. In the Milbank Penitentiary
several persons had also lost their lives in consequence of the
system of solitary confinement. To what system of punish-
ment should the House have recourse? Certainly it should
not be to that species of confinement which resulted
in loss of life. If prisoners deserved to lose their lives,
they should be exposed to that punishment by the criminal
law of the land ; but they should not be exposed or subjected
to a system of puuishment which terminates in death. Again,
he would ask the House to consider what was to become of
the prisoners who were discharged after a long term of im-
prisonment? Bow was it possible for unfortunate prisoners,
with a blasted character, to obtain employment in this coun-
try, where there was so mush difficulty for persons of unble-
mished reputation to get anything to do? Upon that subject
he would ask the House to consider the expressions made use
of by the Recorder of Exeter, in his address to the Grand
Jury, at the Sessions ending January, 1841. That Learned
Gentleman, having adverted to his own painful feelings in
discharging the duty of passing sentence upon offenders
in his Court for first offences, said he had often
observed that such persons (meaning prisoners convicted of their
first offences) exhibited proofs of deep and sincere repen-
tance—of such feelings of repentance as he was sure they did
feel deeply and sincerely—in such cases he felt it his duty to
point out to the unfortunate wretches the advantages of good
character ; but his heart sunk within him when he reflected
upon what these poor people would have to encounter when
they came to carry out their good intentions, and began to
act upon the feelings of repentaoce which they then unques-
tionably entertained. When they were discharged, what be-
came of them ?—they were forsaken by their friends, and
sneered at by their old acquaintances, until at length they
were driven to the commission of some greater crime than, that
for which they before had been .convicted." That was an
opinion coming from a legal authority, and was certainly
worthy of considerable respect—( Hear, hear.) Again,
it was the opinion of the Governor of the Milbank
penitentiary, that it was impossible to provide employment for
prisoners when discharged from prison, and that is very easily
accounted for, because when, as he (Lord Mahon) stated be-
fore, so many persons of good character found it difficult to pro-
cure employment in this country, it must, as a matter of course,
be infinitely more difficult for persons of blemished cheracter to
get employment ; and he believed' that many prisoners in this
country were discharged from prison sincerely and heartily de-
sirous to avoid the commission of crime for the future, if they
could but obtain employment. He was in favour of the prin-
ciple of transportation, because then prisoners were removed to
a new state of society, where their former characters was no
bar to their employment, or to their carrying their virtuous in-
tentions into effect. He (Lord Mahon) trusted that his
Right Honourable Friend would turn his attention to
the adoption of some means to provide employment for
prisoners after their discharge.. With reference to the Noble
Lord the Secretary for the Colonies, he (Lord Mahon) had
seen a plan which appeared to him to be entirely and com-
pletely satisfactory with respect to prison legislation, and he
thought that transportation did afford advantages nut only to
the criminal population, but to the public at large—it was be-
neficial to the public, who were interested in repressing crime
—it was beneficial to the criminals, who were interested in
procuring employment and being reformsd—and it was bene-
ficial io the colonies, who would have the advantage of addi-
tional labour. Upon the whole, he perfectly concurred with
his Right Hon. Friend the First Lord of the Treasury, who,
in the last speech he had made neon the subject, stated that
the system of corporal punishment, combined with expatria-
tion, would more completely answer all the necessities of this
country, than any other system which it would be possible to
introduce into it.
Mr. O'CONNELL was rather surprised at the speech of
the Noble Lord. He first stated that he was in favour of a full
inquiry, and he concluded by expressing quite a different
opinion. He (Mr. O'Connell) felt himself bound to vote in
favour of the motion of the Hon. Member for Finsbury, though
lie regretted it, because the inquiry he sought was much wider
than was necessary. He was, not aware that the discussion
upon the subject would have taken srivride a range, otherwise he
would have been able to support the motion more effectually. The
fact was, that he had appointed two o'clock to-morrow for ob-
taining information upon the subject-of prison discipline; but
in the first instance he should.. protest against what had fallen
With
from the Hon. Member for Finsbury (Mr. WekleY).
respect to the mitigation of punishment, in his (Mr. O'Con-
nell's) opinion, it was one of the most consoling thinss for the
Legislature and for the country at, large, that the number of
persons now put to death all over the country did not amount
to the number of capital convictions that used to
take place in the sessionf of the Old bailey, more
particularly when the number of crimes were increasing
almost daily. In Belgium the punishment by death was com-
pletely abolished, though there was something capricious in the
I relative amount of punishment inflicted for crime there. No
later than the other day he saw by the newspapers, that a man
who was convicted of the manslaughter of a woman, by giving
her a blow of which she dicd,was sentenced to only one month's
imprisonment. Yesterday he saw an account of the' con-
viction of a man for killing a woman, the sentence pro-
nounced upon him was six months' imprisonment; and
in the same newspaper, he saw an account of the con-
viction of a man who ran away with a letter, containing
255., and he was sentenced to twelve months. He (Mr.
O'Connell) would not be an advocate for having the punish-
ment quite so capricious, but what he meant to cal the at-
tention of the House to more particularly, was the complaints
of Roman Catholics, or rather the complaints of the Roman
Catholic clergy, fir being prevented from attending those pri-
soners who are members of the -Roman Catholic persuasion.
The Right Hon. Baronet read the Act of Parliament, and
he said he was ready to work out that Act. He seemed to
think that there was an evasion of it attempted, and
that the object was to keep out imps oper per-
sons. The complaint was, that the Roman Catholic
clergy were not allowed in the prisons unless they were
specially called on by the prisoners, who were completely in
the power of the gaolers and of the Magistr ates, who were almost
in every instance adverse to the admission of the Roman Ca-
tholic clergy, and consequently they were prevented from dis-
charging their duties. What was required was that the Roman
Catholic clergy should be allowed to go into prisons to visit
the prisoners of that persuasion, without being previously re- 1
quired by the party to do so. There was no person who snore
manifestly required the aid of a-clergyman than the party who '
hesitated to make the request to have the clergyman called
in—he had little or no impulses towards repentance,
and he of all others was just the man who required to
be visited and roused by his clergyman. He (Mr. O'Con-
nell) would not dwell further upon this subject at present, as
he meant to hying it specifically before the House. There was
one fact, however, which he must state—it appeared that in
the county of Middlesex a number of Roman Catholic ladies
of station, of rank, and of fortune, had formed themselves into
a society to vilit the sick ; they were prevented from visiting
some of the Roman Catholic inmates of the prisons ; there
were no less than three meetings of the magietrates of Mid-
dlesex ; the proposition that those ladies should be
allowed to visit the prison was considered, and very poorly sup-
ported in point of numbers, but it was ultimately overruled.—
( !leer, hear.) Now if it happened in Ireland that a number of
Protestant ladies were prevented by Roman Catholic Magis-
trates from acting 33 laudably as those ladies in Middlesex in-
tended, no language could be strong enough to reprobate the
conduct of such Roman Catholic Magistrates.--( Hear, hear. )
He (Mr. O'Connell) should say that it would be an uncharita-
ble and an uathris ian act, and no credit would be done to any
party capable of being guilty of it-(hear, hear)—it was not
likely that the Roman Catholic clergy could he supposed to
come within the meaning of those whom the Act
, of Pi rliament called " improper persons."--( Hear, hear. )
The
tahTelreeioedreu, noeat reasonmen,ed w
certified
they
tifiedturt,touytpd beire
shut Bishops
out; therefro
from
was,

• the discharge of their duties. '1 he question was becoming
every day more and more interesting, not alone to the pri- •
soners and the clergy who were directly interested, but the
interest was every day augmenting amongst the upper classes
of Roman Catholics. A clause was introduced into the Act of
Parliament, providing that whenever there were Roman Ca-
tholics in a prison, a chaplain should be had for them at the
expense of the county. That clause was struck out in the
House of Lords—(Hear, hear)—it was to be la-
mented that a proposition so rational in its nature
should not be acceded to; however, the clause was
struck out, and some time ago an application was made to ap-
point a Roman Catholic Chaplain to a prison ; the Grand
Jury said they could not provide for him. The Roman Catho-
lie Bishop (Dr. Griffiths) said he would appoint a clergyman
gratuitously, that he woutd pay him out of his own pocket; but
the Mid lesex Magistrates refused him permission to visit the
prison, unless whenever he happened to be specially sent for.
When he (Mr. O'Connell) should bring the e, together with
many other similar facts, before the House, he would respect-
fully claim a legislative measure to allow Roman Catholic cler-
gymen to go into the gaols to attend prisoners whenever they
thought fit • There was also a very just complaint. that in some
prisons Roman Catholics were obliged to attend at the Pro-
test: n service. Even these were grievances of a peculiar nature.
This was a system which every one must consider cruel, and as
for Christianity, he thought there was very little Christianity
in those who would not act to others as they would he acted by.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL commenced by alluding, in a low
tone of voice, to certain observations which had been made in
the course of the debate. which bore no reference to the ques-
tion. The question before the House this evening was, whe-
. her it was fit that an inquiry should be instituted into the pre-
sent system of prison discipline. The answer to the proposal
made by the Right Hon. Gentleman was, that no benefit would
arise from such a proceeding. He admitted that the present
system of prison discipline was not the most perfect, but they
were making such progressive improvement from year to year
as could not be accelerated with advantage ; and by the system
established by law they had every circumstance first reported to
the Secretary of State, and then laid on the table of
both Houses of Parliament, so that every publicity was
given to abuses. It was only necessary that Members
should ask the Secretary of State for any information, and the
Secretary of State would be able to answer their inquiries, and
he ( Lord John Russell) was sure that the Right Hon. Gentle-
man had shown his readiness to-night to adopt such a course.—
( Hear, hear.) Now, if from the statements made to the Se-
cretary of State it should appear that the law was not sufficient
or that it required to be remedied, there would then be a case
made ont for any Hon. Gentleman to propose an amendment for
such defect in the law, but he could net see that any good would
be done by having a general inquiry into this law. His col-
league, his Hon. Friend, gave up half the case when he said he
did not want a general inquiry. The Hon. Member said that
inquiry was useless; all they wanted was a report. Now the
lion. and Learned Gentleman who had just spoken had re-
ferred to one case of abuse, and on which he thought the
Right Hon. Gentleman opposite had not received correct in-
formation. It was relative to the case of Roman Catholic
prisoners; and he (Lord .1. Russell) confessed that there
was a defect in the law on this subject, and he regretted that
the law proposed by Mr. Langdale had not become the law of
the land. It had oocurred to him (Lord .1. Russell) when he
was Secretary of State, and received applications relative to
the admission of religious instructors into prisons, he thought
first that they should be complied with, but, on hearing th,
objections of the Magistrates, he thought they were well-
founded; for though the applicants might be proper persons,
and actuated by sincere zeal, yet if they opened the doors
wide to all those who were willing to give religious instruc-
tion, the probability was that they would destroy the
peace of mind of the prisoners by their contradic-
tory and, it might be, fanatical doctrines. Indeed he did
not think that the state of the prisoners would be at all im-
proved by such indiscriminate admission. He did nut think
that the Right Hon. Gentleman could properly assent to such
a measure, thagh he should be glad to see some improvement
in the condition of the Roman Catholic prisoners. In this
county there must be a great number of Roman Catholic pri-
soners, and he (Lord J. Russell) must confess it appeared to
him that the decision of the Middlesex Magistrates was not jus-
tifiable under the circumstances; he could riot see why the Roman
Catholic ladies should not be allowed to appoint their visiting
Committee, or why Dr. Griffiths, a most respectable person,
should not have the power to send a chaplain of his own
to visit the prisoners. But with respect to the motion made by
his Hon. Friend, he (Lord J. Russell) did not see any prac-
tical advantage to be gained from it, because all the impruve-
merits which could be made, had better be made by the Execu-
tive Government--( Hear, hear)—to whom it more properly
belonged. And when a case of abuse occurred to a Member
which required explanation, he was sure every information
would be given on the subject. He must, therefore, vote
against his Hon. Friend if he pressed his motion to a division.

-The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER rose to cor-
rect some error which had fallen from his Hon. Friend, who
had adverted to the state of the House of Correction
belonging to the University of Cambridge, called the
spinning-house, and who gave an account of that house
of correction, as described by the Inspectors three years since.
No one could deny that that building was ill-constructed and
ill adapted for the purposes of a house of correction. The
Hon. Gentleman► certainly added that there was a law-suit
pending there between three parties, to which those inconve-
niences were owing; but if he had looked at the later Report
of the Commissioners, he would have found that the contest
between the town, the corporation, and the University was
still pending, and that so far from the University refusing to
remedy any inconveniences, the Inspectors of Prisons had
communicated with the Vice-Chancellor of the University on
the subject, who had referred them to his solicitor, in order
that some remedy might be devised, and by the solicitor's re-
marks appended to the Report, it appeared that the law-
suit was still pending, but that permanent arrange-
ments were being made, in order to secure the re-
ligious services of a chaplain, and to separate the male
and female prisoners. He (the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer) thougnt that it would be found that every thing the
University could do, it had done. But the Hon Gentlemen
had made a charge of a more serious nature, which he (the
Chancellor of the Exchequer) could satisfactorily prove to be
without foundation. He alluded to a suburb of Cambridge
called Barnwell, which had grown up lately into a populous
town, and had become the residence of a large number of per-
sons of bad character. He had stated that the lodging-houses
were crowded with persons of the worst description ; and that
there were men going about with dog-carts, who professed
to be distributing religious tracts. If that were so, he
( the Chancellor of the Exchequer) did not know but the
Hon. Gentleman having summed every thing up, said that that
was the only religious instruction which the University afforded
to the inhabitants of Barnwell. It the Bon. Gentleman had
taken means to inquire, he would have known that in this in-
stance, instead of there being any want of zeal on the part of
the University, there was no instance where they hail exerted
themselves to a greater extent, or with more success. He
would know that one gentleman atone, a Fellow of Trinity Col-
lege, though possessed of small means, had built a Church
there capable of holding more than a thousand individuals, and
had taken the entire duties of that church upon himself,
where he acted as minister; and still finding that there
was a growing necessity for religious instruction in that
parish, he had completed a second church, by which
the means for religious instruction was considerably enlarged.
The Right Hon. Gentleman so far from denying the exertions
of the University would, he, (the Chancellor of the Exchequer)
was sure, knowing his candour; be the first to admit that their
exertions had been most strenuous and successful,

Mr. BROTHERTON said he was quite sure that many
prisoners were brought to take their trial who had no right to
be convicted at all, but whose cases should have been disposed
of in another way less expensive to the country. Ile had
merely risen to represent this fact to the House. If anything
could be done to improve the condiiion of prisoners confined
iq,the House of Correnion, and to reinstate them in society,
he should be glad to have it adopted; and if the Hon. Member
should divide, he (Mr. Brotherton) would vote for him, but he
would advise him not to divide.—(Hear, hear. )
Mr. HARFORD spoke in so low a tone of voice, that he
was scarcely audible in the gallery. We unders;ood him to say
that having been for some time Sheriff for the county of
Monmouth, his at:ention had been called to the prison di,ci-
pline. He had found in the Monmouth prison no less
than four men sleeping in one bed, and the gaol crowded in
all parts, and the drainage so bad as seriously to affect the
health of the prisoners. He hoped such abuses would be
remedied.

Lord G. SOMERSET, as a Magistrate of the county of
:Monmouth, felt called on to explain something relative to the
state of the prisons in Monmouth. The attention of the Ma-
gistrates of Monmouth had lately been called to the subject of
prison discipline, and a new county gaol was now being erected
at an expense of from 15,0001. to 16,000/., and at this moment
an inquiry was going on to consider how far it would be pos-
sible to improve the condition of the other gaols. A new
gaoler from Bristol :had also been lately appointed to Mon-
mouth Gaol to ensure proper discipline, so that he thought it
could not be said that the Magistrates of Monmouth had neg-
lected to consider this important matter.
Mr. DUNCOMBE was understood to say that he regretted
his measure had met with so much opposition, as the only or-
piment he had heard against it was, that it could not be pro-
ductive of any good. He should like to know what harm it could
do? After the kind manner, however, in which his motion
had been treated, he should not press the House to a division,
but he hoped that when he allowed this motion to be negatived
without a division, he should not be considered as ap-
notteniforpmreitsyentin
tshyostepnrit..—sen(tHsyeastre,m,haenadr,whhaetarb.e)
prrioevriongwasof
desired was, that the whole system of diet, labour, and disci-
pline, should be investigated by a Committee; and he had no
doubt that a Committee appointed fur that purpose would
sirike out some plan to mitigate the cruelties at present prac-
tised. But he did not intend to press the matter to a division,
and not bring able to obtain an inquiry, he was satisfied at
least the discussion would be productive of good.—(Hear.)
lie was sorry to be oblised to state what he did respecting
Cambridge, but he believed that the ;prison at Barnwell re-
mained without any improvement, with the exception that
prayers had now been celebrated there every tsunday. He
warned the House that a strong feeling was abroad that, though
they mitigated their criminal code, by their present principla
they were only substituting the prison for the scaffold ; arid
that those who entered those prisons came out emacia'ed crip-
s woellitlaarwyasryestthematst,haenrtet
alsow'a s
dark cells with a diet of bread and water, and the other well-
aired edasitiffiel difference
e betweenr(e twoer ' hear.)
eh
aer
systems.silent) il
ofe and'N'a
solitary confinement ; one in
and lighted cells. He would not withdraw his motion,
but allow it to be negatived without a division.
The motion was then put, and negatived without a division.
IMPORTATION OF HILL COOLIES INTO THE

WEST INDIES.
• Mr. VERNON SMITH said that having ventured to give
notice of the motion which he was now called on to move
he should be unwilling to call the attention of the House to it,
if tie.) Noble Lord, the Secretary for the Colonies, had taken
upon himself to invite their attention to the subject. He
begged to assure the House that it was not his attention to re-
tard the progress of improvement now going forward in the
Mauritius and the West Indies, but because he believed the
views of the Noble Lord on the subject wire calculated to re-
tard
that improvement he determined to introduce the matter
to the House. And not only were the Noble Lord's views,
in his opinion, calculated to retard that improvement, but he
believed from the rashness with which he treated the subject
that he would endanger the safety and security of the inha-
bitants of India. In order to put the House in possession of the
precise position in which the subject sto:id it would be necessary
to recapitulate and go back to the subject as it stood when before
brought under the consideration of the House. The House
would recollect that after the passing of the Emancipation Act
—that noble Act which was obtained by the sacrifices made
by the people of this country to individuals whose estates
would be prejudiced by its pas-ing—it was supposed that the
emancipated slaves would rather live in repose in their ener-
vated climate, than undertake those labours which the inha-
bitants of more northern climes were accustomed to. On such
a supposition it was considered that the worst place from
which a supply could be obtained was the East Indies ; and
those who took any interest in the question would remember
that an importation of Hill Coolies into the West Indies and
the Mauritius took place, the former in the year 1835, and the
latter in 1837. He did not 'Wish to enter into any subject that
could give offence to any person, but he would say that when the
' question of the introduction of Hill Coolies into British
Guiana was under consideration, Lord Brougham whose eyes
were always open to
anything that affected the black popula-
tion, and who haddone so much in this cause, made one of
his eloquent and heart-rending speeches upon the Order
in Council on the subject in 1838, and their introduction was
stopped ; and so strong was the impression produced, that no •
thing would satiite the desire of the country but the stopping

of the traffic, and instructions were accordingly sent to the
Governor of India to prevent their importation. In the year
1840, after his Noble Friend ( Lord John Russell) had been
for six months in the Colonial-offi e, he conceived that some-
thing must be done on the subject ; but, jealous as he was of
the privileges of Parl ament, and upon a question so much agi-
tated, he thought it right the subject should be laid before
Parliament, and he introduced the Coloni 1 Passengers
Act; but the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite
(the Chancellor of the Exchequer) suggested he had
better issue an Order in Council, which, however, his
Noble Friend did not do, considering that he could not issue
an Order in Council, for the purpose of its being subsequently
discussed in Parliament. But a few days after the Right
Hon. Baronet opposite, the Member for Pembroke, made
another proposition, that a Bid should bit introduced on the
subject to Parliament, and that a discussion might then take
place. That was the opinion of the Right Hon. Baronet,
but his (Mr. V. Smith's) Noble Friend did not adopt that
system, but he did se in principle, for a clause on the subject
was inserted in the Colonial Passengers Act then passing
through Parliament, and he believed that that course was ap-
proved of by the Right Hon. Baronet. Thus the question
stn rod in the debates that ensued, the Hon. Member for
the Tower Hamlets took an active part in opposition ; but, not-
withstanding, the Bill w:.3 carried through several stages. In
the to .7ntitne, the powerful machinery of the Anti-Slavery
Society eves put in requisition, and an outcry was raised
against him-e f and his Noble Friend for the part they had
taken in introducing the measure. It was not till the third
reading of the measure that it was thrown out, and
thrown out, too, by the agency of the Right Ho-
nourable Baronet (Sir J. Graham) who came down with
one of those heavy-pounder speeches for which he was so re-
markable, and destroyed all chance of passing that Bill at that
time.—( Hear, hear.) The course he took was one of delay,
because he said, " that they ought not be called on to
legislate on the subject without. any definite plan being
tall before them by the Noble Lord " ( 11 us,ell).
That was the course pursued by the Right lion. Gentle-
min, and also by another Hon. Gentleman, whom he saw oppo.
sae—a Director of the East India Company, who pressed for
delay till information could be obtained from India, and who
presented a petition from the East India Company for that
purpose. Such was the position of the question before the
House at that time, and it would be seen that the House gave
its solemn sanction to the introduction of Hill Coolies from
India to the Mauritius and the West Indies. He knew that
one Government were not bound to the measures recommended
by a different Government; but he thought it a strange course
for one Government to cast blame upon another for
certain measures, and afterwards to adopt the very
course which they censured before.—( Hear, hear.)
He would next invite the attention of the House to a Report
which had been lately presented to Parliament. It was a Re •
port drawn up by six gentlemen, appointed for the purpose by
the Governor-General of India. One a those Gentlemen,
namely Mr. Arthur, had left the country before that Report
had been signed; but of the other five a majority, consisting
of three, had signed the Report. They stated that " they
were decidedly adverse to the emigration of H ill CoOlies from
the East Indies to the Mauritius, under any circumstances."
One of the live Gentlemen, a Mr. Dowson. who had refused to
sign that- Report, was himself- a merchant, largely engaged
in. the
p . Grant,export othert recusant,o
oxpottat
exportation
Jbut there were some points in his minute which would lead to
ofwa ouCrabiliee: 'onainhdethwehole,
a different conclusion. He acknowledged, however, that
there were abuses in the system, which he divided
into three heads ; namely, abuses in India, abuses
at sea, and abuses in the Maui itius.—( Hear.) He admitted,
among the abuses in India, that the poll. e did not afford the
protection which they might afford to the Hill Coolies; then
among the abuses at sea, was a scarcity of water in the ves-
sels ; but the strongest point against the conclusion at
which Mr. Grant had arrived, was his own admission that at
sea some of the unfortunate passengers had thrown themselves
overboard. That did not prove that they were satisfied with
their condition ; and although Mr. Grant had stated that they
had thrown themselves overboard, in order that they might be
picked up again, he (Mr. V. Smith) doubted the accuracy of
that statement. The principal abuse which took place in the
Mauritius was, according to Mr. Grant, that those who had
formerly been slave-owners, did not show themselves fit to be
trusted with the management of Hill Coolies. He (Mr. V.
Smith) did not mean to say that he was decidedly unfavourable
to the exportation of Hill Coolies, but he thought
that Parliament should take no rash or premature step upon
the subject. The next paper to which he should refer, and the
most important of all, was a minute drawn up by Lord Auck-
land, the late Governor-General of India. The subject had
been submitted to the four Counsellors of India, but the most
valuable report was that of Lord Auckland, to whose humanity
and good sense such a question might safely be entrusted.
Now, if Lord Auckland had said that he approved of the order
of the Government, and that he thought it might immediately
be acted on, he (Mr. V. Smith) admitted that that would be
a perfect justification of the course pursued by the Noble Lord
opposite, however precipitate that course might be considered.
He did not believe, however, that such an inference could
be drawn from the minute of Lord Auckland. That
Noble Lord, after having stated that he had read the Re-
port of the Commissioners, proceeded to express his doubts
upon the subject. He began by saying, that " all the atten •
lion he had given to the matter had not enabled him to arrive
at any satisfactory conclusion. It was upon no understood prin-
ciple, but by the busy intervention of the Government agents,
that the first emigrants had been induced to seek their fortunes
in the Mauritius ; and whether many had done so for their
own good or evil was a question which there had not been time
or experience enough to determine." Again, at the end of
paragraph the 2d, page the 9th, he stated that " he greatly
feared that no act of the Legislature, and no vigilance en the
part of the constituted authorities, could prevent fraud from
being premise:l uton the helpless Hill Coolies in consequence
of their ienotance and their poverty." In alluding to a subject
to whicCalr. Grant had also referred, he stated that " the
police appointed to protect these people were a most ineffi-
cient blanch of our service; and that the establishment of
such a body had, on the whole, ended in disappointment."
Lord Auckland said in another part of the minute, that " if
the question were that of opening a system of emigration to
the Mauritius alone, he would willingly admit that it might
afte; a time be attended with much benefit ;" but the Noble
Lord added, that "after they had been satisfied of the safety
of the proposed emigration to the Mauritius, they would have
to consider that such emigration could hardly take place
without its leading also to renewed- emigration, chiefly on the
part of British subjects, from Pondicherry and other British
settlements in India." There was another passage which he
would read to the House—" The home authorities alone would
be able to determine how far the cordial co-operation of fo-
reign Governments was to be relied on for a steady enforce-
ment of a measure to protect the natives within the limits
of their settlements." Now he ( Mr. V. Smith) did not
think that the Noble Lord opposite had any security
that he would obtain a cordial co-operation on the part of fo-
reign Powers ?. and be was confirmed in his doubts upon the
subject from the late refusal of France to ratify the treaty, in-
cluding the right of search ; and he could not but forget that
that country had always shown herself extremely jealous of the
prosperity of our Colonies. The more he looked at the mi.
mute of Lord. Auckland the less did he feel disposed to think
that that minute would justify the Noble Lord opposite in pur-
suing the course he had taken, without having previously as-
certained the feelings of Parliament upon so important a ques..
tion. It would appear from the minute of Mr. Princep, an-
other of the four counsellors, that that gentleman was
adverse to the
from the frauds and impositions of traders. Those frauds,
passing of any law to protect the Hill Coolies
practised by the crafty upon the ignorant. took place in every
society, according to that gentleman, and therefore the Legis-
lature should not interfere in such cases. Now in his (Mr. V.
Smith's) opinion, such a statement was alone sufficient to
throw discredit on the minute of Mr. Princep. He would
next refer to the evidence given by the Hill Coolies themselves,
showing their opinion of the advantages of emigration. Num-
bers of them, who had been in the Mauritius, had been exa-
mined at great length, and, with the exception of a very few,
none were willing to leave their .country again, what-
ever might be the indemnity held out to them.
From these statements he inferred that very few wished to
return to the Mauritius, or to go back to the state in which
they were said to be comfortable and well off. Under proper
regulations, he thought that a considerable number might be
ready to return, and others found to go; and it. was because
he believed the regulations were not fit, that he called the
attention of the House to the subject. Up to October 1841,
there had bet n no overwhelming evidence that shoulakhave
induced the Noble Lord to depart from the course laid down
by the late Government. He would not allude to anything
foreign to the subject, or to anything relating to any other
department than that of the Noble Lord, as to the land of pro-
mise held out to the House and the country during the recess;
but at the commencement of the present session, the Noble
Lord had introductsl, with some appearance of parade in
the despatch of business, two measures, both of which be
might have found prepared in the Colonial-office, the Pas-
sengers' Act, and the South Australian Act. Thepreamble
of the former Act would appear to do much credit to the
Noble Lord's foresight as a statesman, for it was all proba-
bilities. It went entirely upon, " Whereas it is probable ;"
and then, in case of all these probabilities turning into cer-
tainties, he proposed his Order in Council. If the late Secre-
tary of State had Wed in this manner, they would have
been told that this was an ex tmple of the rash conduct of the
Whig Government, its carelessness of existing institutions,
and its readiness to break through them, to serve a purpose.
He wished to know if that Order in Council was issued with
any knowledge of the opinions of the East India Com-
pany upon it, for it was that body which, on the
last occasion presented a petition adverse to the Bill. He con-
sidered that the Noble Lord had put the question in the most
awkward shape possible far the realization of the hopes enter-
tained by the, planters of the Mauritius, and also in the worst
shape for the ssfetY and security of the Hill Coolie* themselves.
He had issued-an Order in Council not to execute but to pro.
pose to execute; it must have been issued as a compliment to
the Mauritian "planters. Was it 'not likely that in India they
would be as anxious to secure and retain their supply of labour,
for which there was a demand in the manufacture of sugar,
and therefore be as anxious to prevent the exportation of
that labour as the Mauritian planters would be to
import it ?—(Cries of " Hear, hear," from Lord Stanley.)
The Noble Lord might cheer that, but if employment and sus-
tenance could be found at home for this class, would it not be
better that they should be so employed, than forced to seek it
abroad? The principal reason for the measure was the alleged
fact that the Coolies could not get employment for themselves
perhaps indulge. the House hereafter, but
at home ; the better and wider principle would have - been to
have left them free to seek labour where it could be found, if
they were given protection against' imhipcosition. He had not
seen any of the able correspottleneedw h tie doubt had passed
between the Noble Lord and Indiaßoard, and with which
twas tan
Cexotinstence, he thought that
not only had the East India Company
butpanybeen il.treated
i
by the Noble Lord in the matter, thata the public had a
th e
that Noble
correspondence
m gh
against the similar measure
great corporation
on this question, later be decided by
The Noble Lord not wait for the opening
d his Order in
of Parliament, but issue . Council two days
before Was it that he did not. wish to raise a
discus-
sion in Parliament, or to rii,gahritiatmoeknnt.ow what was the otpainooioaneroforth
excite against himself the
clamour of the Anti-Slavery Societies, which he
Was there. any such difference be-
tween the position of these persons in 1840 and the present
time, as to induce the Noble Lord change his position Aith
iwifuthseo laatenxGioorern'omeenxt
respect to this subject? If there was not such a difference,
then the Noble Lord was responsible for the factious oppo-
sition he had given to the measure of the late Governmert in
1810. In introducing. the Pass.engers' Act, the Noble Lord
had never mentioned the question. to which he (Mr. V.
Smith) was then calling the attention of the House; but a
Bill was produced, he found excite
fortnight after the
note attached to it, which might be considered to refer
provisions of that Act, if necessary, in the
11 on
ihae,
possessions of
British India. Did the Noble Lord by this mean
t Ho
il
l adopt Coolies,
otl e
the
as it empowered the Governor-General of
to raise the question of emigration from India or not ? If he
did, why not state so in the introduction of the Act ? if not,
why had he issued the order in Council two days before the
meeting of Parliament, thus sanctioning what he had himself
called Crown-made law, instead of law made by Parliament?
' The motion for which he had given notice was for the produc-
tion of the instructions given by the East India Companyto
the Governor-General, who was now proceeding thither, on
this subject. It was hardly possible that the Noble Lord had
suffered his Colleague to proceed to India without definite
instructions on this question. He wished to know what instruc-
-1 tions had been given, as the Noble Lord had been a decided
' enemy to the exportation of the Coolies, having, in 1838,
made a strong speech against it, in which he represented that

race of men as utterly incapable of having any will of their
Own, and that, in face, they were more like a race of monkeys
than men. But it now appeared that the Noble Lord was
going to sanction the exportation of these creatures; he did
not think that the Goversor.General, on his arrival in India,
would be very anxious to put the measure into effect.—
( :dear, hear.) He considered the course the Noble
Lord had taken was most inconsistent, having to the
utmost opposed the measure of the late Government to the
same effect, nothing material having occurred in the interval to
change his opinion. But it was not merely the inconsistency
of this course that was sufficient to justify him in asking the
attention of the House. He was also most anxious for the
success of some great scheme, which should induce the Coolies
to seek a market for their labour under proper protection, so
as to enable not, only the Alauritius, but the West Ladies,
to be cultivated in a better manner than had hi-
therto been the case. He still retained the highest
interest in this question, and that was the reason he had
ventured to call the attention of the House towards it.
Ile wished the Noble Lord to state, therefore, what steps,
any, he had taken on this subject with foreign Powers,if
i
Which had been admitted by every authority to be necessary as j
a preliminary measure. He wished also to know if he had
had any correspondence with the East India Company on the
question, as he should be glad to hear what was now the opinion
of that powerful body ; for he trusted that the mighty were not so
fallen that they could be overlooked by the Noble Lord.
The last point he wished for information upon, was, what were
the instructions given on this subject, either written or per-
sonally, to Lord Ellenborough, either by the East India Com-
pany, or by the Noble Lord.
Lord STANLEY said he must beg the indulgence of
the House while be endeavoured to answer the various at-
tacks that had been made on him, and on her Majesty's Go-
vernment, for that which had been termed the rash and
precipitate course which the Government had adopted on
the present occasion. He should endeavour to show to
the House, that neither had his own conduct been, as stated by
the Noble Lord, inconsistent with the course taken in 1840,
nor that the Government had been neglectful of the interests
of the various parties they had to consider, nor that their mea-
sure had been adopted without due consideration and delibera-
tion. One charge which the Right Hon. Gentleman had
brought against the Government was, that two days before
the meeting of Parliament they had thought fit
to promulgate an Order in Council on this subject.
that they might speak out of the necessity of coming before
Parliament. It appeared also most suspicious to the Right
lion. Gentleman, that the Order should have been issued just
too days before the meeting of Parliament ; now for the pur-
pose of formally passing an Order of this nature, it was neces-
sary that the Council should be called together, and the Right
' llon. Gentleman's own experience was surely long
enough to have told him that it was not unusual
to hold a Council at that particular period.
It did appear to him (Lord Stanley) singular that the Right
Hon. Gentleman should assume, that because that document
appealed at a date two days before the meeting of Parliament,
it did so appear for the purpose of withdrawing the question
from the consideration of Parliament.—( Hear, hear.) But
the Right Hon. Gentleman said that this was a course which
her Majesty's. Government had no authority to take, and that
in 1040 his Noble Friend would have taken a very different
course on this subject.. He (Lord Stanley) thought that the
Bight Hon. Gentleman had forgotten that as soon as Parlia-
ment had met, the Hight Hon. Gentleman, having seen the
Order in Council alluded to, asked him (Lord Stanley) if it
was his intention to lay that Order on the table of the House.
He (Lord Stanley) stated in reply that it was not only his
intention to do so. but also to accompany it with such docu-
ments as he should deem necessary for its elucidation. Not-
withstanding that, the Right Hon. Gentleman gave notice of a
motion for the production of the Order in Council relative to
emigration to the Alauritius. The Order in Council tad been
laid on the table, and the Right Hon. Gentleman's motion was
postponed to the following day, then to the following week,
and up to this morning the Right Hon. Gentleman's notice of
motion referred to the production of an Order in Council thathad
been laid on the table of the House a few days after the meet-
ing of Parliament, and this morning it first appeared that the
Right Hon. Gentleman meant to move for a copy of instruc •
tions which he supposed to have been given by the authorities
connected with the management of Indian affairs to the Go-
vernor-General of India respecting emigration to the Alauri-
tius. With regard to the motion itself, he (Lord Stanley)
concluded that the Right lion. Gentleman would not press it,
when he was informed that no such instructions as those he
alluded to were issued, and that he (Lord Stanley) had con-
sequently nothing to produce. The Right Hon. Gentleman
was exceedingly surprised at the course pursued by the Go-
vernment with respect to the Order in Council, in not having
previously laid it before Parliament. He (Lord Stanley)
hoped that he would pever, either as a Minister of the Crown
or otherwise, be wanting in respect to the Houses of Parlia-
ment. But he would venture only to say, that in his judg-
ment the course pursued by,Alinisters, in this matter, was Con-
stitutional ; and in advising the Crown, they acted upon their
responsibility as Ministers, and had announced to Parliament
the rep they had taken, inviting from Hon. Gentlemen their
condemnation or approbation, as it might be, with reference to
that step. That was the course which the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman said his Noble Friend would not have taken. Why his
Noble Friend had announced his intention, in Feb. 1540, to
take that very course, that he hnd changed his opinions, and
that he was going to make a change in his conduct, and
that he was going to consult Parliament previously- with re-
spect to the step he meant to take. —( Hear, hear.)
He (Lord Stanley-) ventured to say that Parliament would not
have allowed such a step at the time, and would thereby have
shown that they had no great confidence in the Executive of
.the day. The Right Hon. Gentleman had the kindness to
tell them that if any further information had been obtained
from the Mauritius, if any circumstances occurred to alter
the state of things existing in 1840--that he admitted there
were good grounds for pursuing a different course in 1842
from that pursued in 1840. He (Lord Stanley) would tell
him that the circumstances were altogether quite different.
He (Lord Stanley) would endeavour to show what
were the grievous abuses against which Parliament had pro-
tested, and the manner in which the present Government
meant to meet those abuses. They had been successful in
meeting those abuses in three cases—in Alauritius, on the pas-
sage, and in India itself. He did not deny that great abuses I
had prevailed in the Mauritius, with regard to the Indians
brought over there. Many of them had suffered great. hard-
ships, and were subject to great cruelty. They had, however,
exage4crated accounts of the extent of tile mortality among the
immigrants. He had head it stated that in the Mauritius severe
treatment had brought on a mortality among the Hill Coolies,
who it was stated were treated like slaves. lie had
made inquiries with regard to the mortality, and by
a return which he now had, it appeared that the
1 number of emigrants imported between the years 1834
and 1839 amounted to 17,028, and out of that number during
those five years there had died just 999, or 1 in 17, or 1-17th
per cent. during those five years. Was it possible that they
could have received two accounts of the sufferings and morta-
I.ty that prevailed among the Hill Coolies ? Now he should
state his objections to the system of emigration to the Mauri-
tius, as it had been hitherto conducted. Parties united and
paid an agent in India, for the purpose, without any restraint,
of securing and making agreements with a number of labourers
to come over to the Mauritius, and, under a contract,
to serve a particular master for five years, at a
certain rote of wages. The consequence of that
was, in the first place, the emigrant brought to Mau- J
ritius found himself, when he arrived, confined to virtual j
slavery for a period of five years. He entered into an impro-
vident contract in India, but that contract was binding upon ,
him. He found others earning larger wages than he did, and
that he had no opportunity of bringing his labour fairly into
the market. Ile found that be had imprudently received ad-
vances with respect to clothing and other articles which caused
him to be in debt to his master rather than admitting of his
I receiving wages. It was no wonder then, that fineing
himself in a state of compulsory servitude for five years,
! the Hill Coolie was dissatisfied with his situation. No doubt
it was an importation of immigrants to give their services to ,
the planters at a lower rate of wages than that which they
could earn in the colony, and that the emigration was con-
ducted for the purpose of private advantage by private agents,
to satisfy private ends. It consequently led to a vast amount
of injustice and suffering. The Right Hon. Gentleman had i
told them that he had confidence in Lord Ellenborough, to
expect that that Noble Lord would not carry into effect the pro-
visions of the plan proposed to be carried into operation by that
Nobleman. He (Lord Stanley) should have neglected his duty
very much, if before Lord Ellenborough had gone to India, he
had not entered into an examination of this subject in all its I
details, in repeated personal conferences with Lord Ellen-
borough ; and before that Noble Lord left this country, all the
premises had been agreed upon, which it was intended that he,
in his capacity of Governor-General of India, was to submit to
his Council as their measure upon this subject, and that Noble
Lord entertained the fullest conviction that he should be able
efficiently to legislate for protection against the abuses of the
whole system. The Government would not have been justified
if they had not fully communicated with the Board of Control
on this subject, and he (Lord Stanley) admitted that it was
very satisfactory to him that the individual who filled the office
of President of the Board of Control concurred with his
Noble Friend already at the head of that Board, that with
ilia instrumentality they would be able to carry out a
system of free emigration, not subject to those abuses which
had been condemned by that House. The Right lioc. Gentle-
man threw out a suspicion against the Members of the East
India Company so unworthy of that body, that he (Lord
Stanley) could not but suppose that there was not one of them
that would not repudiate the imputation sought to be fixed
upon them. The Right Hon. Gentleman said, ‘. Let them
iconember that the East India Company were sugar growers."
Ale. VERNON SMITH here said something across the
table, but in so low a tone of voice as to be scarcely
audible in the gallery. We understood the Right lion.
Gentleman to say that his observatien was.that the East
India Company was connected with persons who were growers
of sugar.
I.ord STANLEY went on to say that he could not believe
that a great body like the East India Company, answerable
for its own character, as for its own interest, would throw
any obstacle in the way of free emigration from India to a place
where the emigrants might have higher wages and constant
employment, for the purpose of keeping in India itself a supera-
bundant population, whose wages amounted to but lid. a-day.
The Right lion. Gentleman asked what had occurred
since the year 1f7,40. \That reasons had they to suppose that
those abuses which were found to take place previous to 1840
did not take place in 1842 ? The Right Hon. Gentleman
charged his Right Hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the
Home Department with not having taken any step in 1840.
Now what had his Right Hon. Friend said? Why that he
was not prepared to legislate, because parties had changed, until
he had heard from the Governor-General of India, or the
Governor of the Mauritius. Since that time they
had heard both from the Governor-General of India, and the
Governor of the Alauritius, and both those officers had stated
it to be their opinion, that emigration to the Alauritius might
be conducted with safety. Now, who was the Governor of the
Mauritius. • Why, Sir Lionel Smith, who of all men on the
face of the earth, was the most favourable to the slave. Sir Lionel
Smith in 1840, wrote to the Secretary of State, stating that
the Indian labourer would be much better off in the Alauritins
than in their own ovcrstockedcountry. Since IMO they had had
the testimony of men above suspicion that there was abundant
and sufficient protection afforded in the Alauritius against any
fraud that might he practised on free labourers. Added to this,
they had the Repot t of a Committee appointed in 1838 to in.
quire into the practicability of preventing the abuse that
existed in India relative to emigration, and from that Report it
was clear that emigration might be carried on according to the
plan proposed by the Government. lie regretted that the
Right Hon. Gentleman had so shaped his motion as to prevent
him calling upon the House to express their opinion
as to the course which the Government had
adopted. Under the former system a person was
appointed by aplanter to select certain persons, but the altera-
tion that was proposed had not in it the least taint of
slavery. It was proposed that the Legislature of the Mauritius
should be entitled to vote a certain fund for the purpose of pro-
moting and paying for the free immigration of labourers from
India, but they were to come only from certain ports which
were to be appointed by the Governor-General. At each of
those ports there was to be a Government agent whose sole
duty would be to see every emigrant, a person to examine whe-
ther they went upon their own accord, or whether they had
been deluded by false expectations ; to acquaint them
of the probable amount of their wages, to state
to them that when they arrived at the Alau-
ritius they would be as free as any person
on the face of the earth, to see that the ship that took them
out was
.perfectly provided with provisions, see that before
the ship left the port it contained a list of the emigrants
on beard, and not allow any ship to go out of the port till all

t conditions were complied with. But that was not all, there
was a further provision to the effect, that a person was to be
appointed at the Mauritius to receive those who had chosen to
become emigrants, to compare the list, to inquire of each
whether they had any complaints to make, to acquaint them
that no contract that they might have entered into in India
was binding on them, that they were free and ready to
engage with any master, subject, however, to this
hnutation, that for forty-eight hours they should not
enter into any contract, arid that anything they might. enter
into should not be of a longer duration than one year. Such
I were the provisions of the measure, and he would ask any rea-
sonable man whether it was possible to make greater protec-
tions for the labourer ? But, added to this, if the labourer was
dissatisfied with the island, he might return at his own ex-
pense ; but if he had served these five years, then he would
have the right to claim a free passage back. It was, therefore,
clear that there was no interest in any person to deceive the
emigrants, because the great object was to get those species
of emigrants there that would stay. Under theold system, it was
sought to get as much as possible out of the emigrants,
white under the new the great object was to make them as sa-
tisfied as possible. But then it was said that the Governor-
General had in his minutes pointed out his doubts as to the
policy of allowing persons to emigrate to the Mauritius. Now
what did the Governor-General of India say upon that sub-
ect ? The Governor. General said, " The attention which I
have been able to give to the subject has led me to no very sa-
tisfactory conclusion upon it, embracing as it does the difficult
question of opening emigration to many distant and even foreign
colonies."—( Hear, hear, from the Opposition. ) Oh, yes ; but
the Right Hon. Gentleman del not. go on to read the next words,
" I am clearly of opinion that the present law, which to a
great degree restricts the freedom of labour and improvement
in the whole Indian population, is most objectionable in prin-
ciple ; that it will probably become injurious and vexatious in
operation , that it should not be regarded as permanent; and
that no safe opportunity should be omitted of relaxing it."
Thew words the Right Hon. Gentleman did not read to the
House ; and yet lie told them that he should go freely into the
whole question. Now, although the Right Hon. Gentleman
selected a passage abont the middle of the next page, in which
the Governor-General stated, that feeling the extent and
force of the difficulties, he could not indulge a hope, &c. ; he
did nA go on to read the following words :—" The impression
to be taken from the evidence of the Hill Coolies who have re-
turned, is, I think, upon the whole most favourable ; and it
may be assumed, with regard to the Mauritius, that
where there is prudence and good conduct, and an average
abase of good fortune, a Coolie may return, after a few years
of labour in that colony, enriched and improved, and for the
most part bringing with him the recollection of no great hard-
ship.' Were this system carried out, he believed that it would
be of general advantage, and in the end many of the abuses
which had been found to exist would work their own cure.
"In this view, and under ordinary circumstances, and
it the slave trade and slavery had never been, we might per-
haps approach the question of ass open emigration with some
hope of devising a principle which might be relied upon, and
generally effective against abuse." Then the Right Hon.
Gentleman quoted the passage speaking of the difficulty which
attended open emigration, but he did not go on to read this
passage :—" It will be for her Majesty's Government to decide
whether distinctions as to the supply ot labour can be admitted
between the several Crown settlements. As respects the interests
for which we tire more especially responsible, I can say that
my ot.jections are assuredly the strongest to dealings of this
description with the colonies and settlements which are most
oistant." The sea passage from its very length, exposed them
to suffering arid hardship. " With Mauritius, however, the
case is different. It is a British settlement easily accessible
from India, and open to our observation ; and if the question
were that of opening emigration to that island, I would will-
ingly at empt to meet the difficulty which might be opposed to
us, and I should hope, shortly and gradually, in a very great
measure to overcome them by a plan such as has been sug-
gested by Mr. Grant." The Governor-General stated that
by the appointment of inspectors of emigration, and other
means, they might do much towards preventing the oppression
of it. Two or three years ago, there had been too much rea-
son to complain. "We could at the same time," said he,
" always satisfy ourselves that the measures adopted in the
Mauritius for the protection of the labourers when
in the island, were operative and sufficient." The Governor-
General came in the end to the conclusion that if the home
Government were disposed to refuse their consent to a more
extended emigration, then at all events he would press upon
them the necessity of repealing this most anomalous law. He
appealed to the House whether the Right Hon. Gentleman
had acted fairly in keeping back those passages?—(Hear,
hear.) Now, the other members of the Committee, Mr.
Princep, Mr. Bird, and Mr. Amos, had all reported on the
subject. Mr. Bird stated that upon the whole he objected to
a relaxation of the present law ; but the House would observe
that his objection to the relaxation rested, not upon the hard-
ships
to which the labourers were exposed, but upon the ground
of there being no superabundance of labour in India, and on the
ground that in some places where persons had been anxious to
obtain labourers they were not able to obtain them.—(Hear,
hear.) But the other two gentlemen, Mr. Princep and Mr.
Amos, expressed a decided opinion in favour of it. He saw
nothing in either of their Reports to warrant the use
to which the Bight Hon. Gentleman had applied them. The
Bight lion. Gentleman said that Mr. Amos was the echo of
Mr. Princep. So far from that being the case, it appeared
from his statement, that he arrived at his conelusien on totally
different grounds. But this fact stood recorded in a letter
from the East Inuia Company themselves, that whatever
othrr difference there might be, these gentlemen were unani-
mously of opinion, that the existing prohibitory law could not
and ought not to be maintained : that the prohibition must be
relaxed, though upon the mode of relaxing it they were not
altogether agreed. —( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentle-
man had charged the Government with acting hastily in
this matter, when in fact they were acting upon the
authority of the Governor-General of India, the Governor
of Mauritius, and the Board of Control in India, after
a full consultation of the members.—( Hear, hear.) More-
over he would tell the Hon. Gentleman, though he must
know it well, that there was no man more anxious for the
early and speedy relaxation of this prohibitory law that the Noble
Lo: d, under whom he served in the Colonial-office. He must
know, also, that almost the last dispatch, written by the direc-
tion of the Noble Lord, contained this passage :—" At the
same time, his Lordship desires me to state, that he is strongly
of opinion that the prohibition of the exportation of the Hill
Coolies should be removed, with proper restrictions and provi-
!ions for the health and return of the Hill Coolies." Now,
they had enabled the Governor-General in' Council to take
those precautions, and unless he was satisfied upon that sub-
ject the emigration slid not take place. They had taken those
precautions which the Noble Lord directed to be carried into
effect, with regard to emigration from Sierra Leone to the
West Indies, and which had been so effectual in preventing
abuse, that not a single complaint had been heard. Under
these circumstances he ventured to hope that the House would
not think that the Government had dealt rashly and hastily with
this question. They had provided, by every legislative enactment
which they could devise, for the protection of the labourers; they
had advised the Governor-General as to the best means
experience pointed out as adapted for that purpose; and they
had further provided, that unless the precautions were carried
into effect the emigration should not take place. With re-
spect to the clause of the insertion of which in the Act the
Right Hon. Gentleman had complained, that clause was in-
troduced for this obvious reason : the Governor-General had
no power in the Alauritius of enforcing penalties for the vio-
lation of the Indian Act, and the clauses were inserted in order
to provide for that difficulty. If the Right lion. Gentleman
thought proper to bring forward a mot ion condemning the conduct
of her Majesty's Government in reference to this question, he
would be prepared to meet him upon it ; at present he would
content himself with calling upon the House to negative this
very insignificant motion.—(Cheers.)
Mr. HAWES thought the Noble Lord had endea-
voured to evade the real question. If he had
known that this general discussion was to take place on
the whole subject of the emigration of Hill Coolies, he would
have been prepared to meet the Noble Lord ; but he (Mr. II.)
was sure that when all the papers connected with the quest.on
had been fairly considered, he should be entitled to draw dif-
ferent conclusions from those which the Noble Lord founded on
the despatch he had read from the Governor of the Mauritius.
He (Mr. H.) would content himself with saying that he would
not rely on the authorities of the Mauritius to treat. the Hill
Coolies with justice and humanity. He recognized and admired
the high character of Sir Lionel Smith, and remembered with
gratitude and pleasure what that gallant officer had done for the
coloured population while he was Governor of Jamaica. Not-
withstanding the disposition and ability of this Gallant Officer,
he (Mr. II.) still feared that no regulations made in behalf of
the Hill Coolies, either here or in India, would be carried out
by the authorities at the Mauritius. He (Mr. H.) would ad-
vert to another despatch, in which, after describing the quar-
rels that took place between the Hill Coolies and their masters,
the writer said that the former were of the lowest and
most ignorant class in India, while the latter were
" still mourning over the loss of their slaves." Those
' facts were sufficient to excite Ills apprehension; but. when the
clauses to which he particularly objected, came before the
House, he would state his views upon the general question. He
did not think that the immorality and sensuality mentioned in
the despatch would be diminished by, the plan of the Noble
Lord. However, he ( Mr. H.) would not oppose the second
reading of the Bill if the Noble Lord would agree to fix a dis-
tant day for the Committee, that he and other persons inter-
ested in this question might have an ample opportunity to dis-
cuss the objectionable clauses, and to take the sense of the
House on them. He would only add that, however he differed
from the Government on this measure, he believed they acted
on the best motives.

Lord STANLEY was understood to assent to the proposition,
on condition that the second reading of the Bill should not be
opposed, as he was anxious to proceed with the measure im-
niciliatelv.
Mr. NOGG was dissatisfied with the manner in which the
subject had been treated that evening. His Eight Hon.
Friend avowed that he introduced his motion for the sake of
attacking her Majesty's Government, and between the vehe-
mence of the attack and the spirit of the defence, the
attention of the House had been distracted from the reel
subject. To this, he (Mr. H. ); now proposed to direct
them. He must observe, that the conclusions of the Noble
Lord were not borne out by his documents, nor had he distinctly
brought the case before them. The Noble Lord traced the
proceedings of the House to the period when instructions were
sent out by the Court of Directors to the Local Government,
to prohibit the exportation of Hill Coolies. Previous to this
time there had been a general outcry in India against the
cruelties suffered by the emigrant Hill Coolies. A great
meeting was held at Calcutta, at which merchants, bankers,
military men, natives, in short, all classes joined in denouncing
the conduct of the masters of the unfortunate Hill
Coolies. At home the matter was brought before
hsth Houses of Parliament. Lord Ellenborough, assisted
by the Duke of Wellington, brought in a Bill in the House
of Lords, but they had to give it up in despair, for as he
(Mr. H.) told the Noble Lord, it was so clogged with con-
ditions and stipulations that it was impracticable, and that
no emigration could take place under it. Then a petition
from the Court of Directors was presented to Parliament.
The result was that orders were sent to the Local Govern-
ment to prohibit the emigration of Hill Coolies. The Noble
Lord, the late Secretary for the Colonies, stated that it was
his intention to relax this state of things, and talked of a
Hill and an Order in Council, but he shrank from the task,
though by no means a timid politician. In the meantime the
Court of Directors determined to take no steps in the
matter while the question Has before Parliament, and until
Parliament had given its opinion thereon, showing a deference
and respect to Parliament which the Noble Lord the Masher
fur North Lancashire did not.—(Hear, hear.) Thus the
matter had stood—so it stood now. When the subject was
discussed before, his Right Hon. Friend said they ought to
wait for the report expected from India. The report art►lyd
on the very slay he (Mr. II.) predicted it would come. Sic
nac serrarit .Apollo--( Laughter)—and it coloured the atroci-
ties that had taken place. Minutes from the Governor-Ge-
neral and Council also came. Sir Lionel Smith said the re-
port did not deserve notice. If it were otherwise, he supposed
the Noble Lord would have submitted the provisions lie intended
to enact to the Board of Control and the Court of Directors.
Those proposed safeguards ought to have been submitted to
the Court of Directors for their consideration. After consider-
ing the whole case, the Directors would have issued
their instructions to the local authorities; and those in-
structions, together with the proposed Order in Council, ought
to have been laid on the table of the House by the Noble Lord,
in order to enable the House to come to a conclusion on the
subject.—( Cheers.) The House would then have had an op-
portunity of hearing both sides; but the Noble Lord, with ad-
mirable dexterity, had kept one side of the question com-
pletely out of sight.—(Opposrtton cheers.) There were enor-
mities committed in India as well as in the Mauritius, and as

yet
inhre, one knew the law which it was intended to intro, Nee
on
übject in India. He (Mr. l.Iogz) was a Mern,')er
of the Court of Directors, and he did not know Vc hi. t
were the regulations the Government proposed to introduce on
the subject in India.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord had
Proceeded very well as far as his own department was con-
inCouncilof
wouldl
(i
'set ged in The
transportation Order
tle Cooliesev ned
f from t Indiahme abuses
teos the
au
Mauritius, and would also remove
Hear, h eoawr what measures
complained of as
existing in the Mauritius with
regardt to the abuses
theksel
r treatment of the
Coolies. But. he (Mr. llogg) wanted to b
it was proposed to adopt in India._(
ought to know it. It ought to be laid on' the. ),
table,ihe nHdo uhs
was not sure that the House ought not to require that and
local
instructions of the Governor of India should bee laid
on the table before they proceeded to legislate on
the subject.—Loud cheers.) Ile would , not dwell at
any length on the existence of the abuses in India, because
the existence of those abuses had been admitted. What he
wanted to know was the remedy which the Noble Lord pro-
po,eil for these abuses. The Noble Lord had talked a great
deal of the appointment id inspectors and protectors, hot on the
authority of Lord Auckland, he (Mr. Hogg) would tell the
Noble Lord that all these inspectors and protectors were good
for nothing. The plan had been in full operation in Calcutta,
at the very time that those enormities were perpetrated, at the
existence of which they had all been so much shocked._
( Cheers.) He was convinced that in such a country as India
it was a vain attempt to endeavour to retnedy such abuses by
such means. Ho would show the House that there was the
strongest ground for believing that those 15,000 or 16,000 Coolies
who had been exported had been induced to go on ship board by the
grossest fraud.— (Hear, hear.) Mr. DOW 21011, a 'Mauritius planter,
had endeavoured to procure some Hill Coolies to emigrate, and for
that purpose he had employed Mr. Caliput, an honest agent,
to proceed up the country, and had Eisen him strict
orders to explain to the Coolies precisely the' Stuns
upon which they were to be engaged—that they were
to leave the country for five years, Mr. Caliput went,
but his mission proved a fruitless one. Not a single Cooly would
engage with him when he explained to them exactly the terms
upon which they were to be engaged, 'and this was at a time
when they were engaging by hundreds with another agent who
was employed by other planters in the same district.—(Hear, hear.)
Could the House require a greater proof that gross fraud must have
bc,i) practised upon these poor creatures 7—(Hear, hear.) As a
confirmation of that assertion, he would mention the fact that the
East Inilis Company having established a tea plantation in Atssam,
and hating thus proved that the tea plant could be successfully cul-
tivated in India, had
.given up the plantations into the
hands of private individuals. Those individuals had subsequently
applied to the Indian Government, stating that they shot.ld be
ruined for want of labourers, and beseeching the Government to
send thmi assistance. The Indian Government sent an agent up
into the neighbourhood of Nagpore to try arid engage some Hill
Coolies to go to Assam. They were uttered their expense. to As.
sam krill back, anti an allowance of three rupees a month ; and he
begged to observe that in that country three rupees a month
was equal to six or seven in the Mauritius. The agent of the
Government lout,' none of the Coolies willing to go. Several of
them inquired the place to which it was intended they should
go, and they refused, saying they were unwilling to go
to a country which had never been visited by any of their
brethren, and expressing a fear that it was intended to send them
beyond the tea, and to subject them to the same horrors and
sufferings as their brethren had undergone.—(Hear, hear.) An-
other application was made, and Mr. Davis, who was employed
on that occasion, reported that the Coolies were not willing to
expatriate themselves—that they were extremely attached to their
country, and that they had good reason to be so, for from the
extreme cheapness of grain in the neighbourhood of Nagpore,
no labouring population had such a command of the necessaries of
lite ss the Coolies of Nagpore.—(Hear, hear,) A third attempt
had Isseii made to induce the Coolies to emigrate to Assam, and
had lien equally unsuccessful—not one of them would go. That was
strong evidence to sh..w that the Coolies who had emigrated had not
doge so of their own free will.—(Hear, hear.) If they could con.
yince him that those persons had emigrated of their own freewill,
he would not have the slightest objection to the plan of the Noble
Lord ; but until he was so convinced, he should be exceedingly
sorry to see the present law altered.—(Cheers.) The Noble Lord
had quoted, with a gteat air of triumph, the opinion of the Gover-
nor-General on the subject, as if it were in his favour; but he (Mr.
Hosg) contended that the opinion of the Governor-General by no
means bore out the Noble Lord.—(Hear, hear.) It was true
that the Governor-General said that the home authorities pre-
vented any general system of emigration ; but he also stated
that he should be sorry to see the present law repealed, although
he should be glad to see a relaxation of it with regard to parti-
cular persons and places. The Governor-General, in that, alluded
to cases of artisans in Calcutta contracting to execute buildings
and works in the Mauritius, not to Hill Coolies. He was sure
they could never legislate satisfactorily on the subject until they
had entered into treaties with the European and Na-
tive Powers on the coast.—(Hear, hear.) ll this system
of emigration were permitted, they would be virtually reviving
the slave trade.—(Cheers from the Opposition.) They would take
away from any moral influence the remonstrances might possess
with other Powers on the subject of the slave trade, if they re.
opened this system of emigration to the Mauritius.—(Cheers.) They
had heard a great deal about the return of the Coolies, and of the
extent of their comforts, &c., but this statement was made with
reference to men who were sent back for the purpose of entrapping
others.—(Opposition cheers.) Of the thousands of Coolies, there
were only t 25 of that number who had been examined. It might
be said that he (Mr. Hogg) had taken up very strong views against
emigration at all, but lie declared to the House that he had taken
no view whatever upon the subject, except that which an imperative
sense of duty urged him to take.—(Loud cheers.) Every
man, whether influenced by duty, interest, or caprice, should
have a right to go wherever he pleased ; it was
imperative upon the State to see that those were protected who
were not able to protect themselves. It was well to say protection
had been extended to sixty or seventy Coolies, but what became
of the thousands who were kidnapped T—(Opposition cheers.)
certain documents had been called for, which they were now told
by the Government were not in existence. The only misfortune,
wills reference to the matter, was that the discussion of to-night
only allowed lion. Gentlemen to express their opinions, and nothing
more could be done.

Mr. I3ROTHERTON having moved that the House do adjourn,

_ .
Lord STANLEY hoped that the House would not adjourn until
some determination was arrived at. He trusted, however, that the
lion. Gentleman (Mr. V. Smith) would not press his motion for
the production of a nonexisting document.—(Laughter from the
Opposition.)
Mr. WAKLEY complained that no reference had been made
by the Noble Lord (Stanley) to the treatment of the Coolie
wallets and children. He had listened with much pleasure to the
statements made by Mr. Hogg—statements which entitled him to
the gratitude and thanks of that House and of the public.—(Hear.)
If the :system adopted here were one of justice, that adopted to.
wards the colonies in the Mauritius could not be just too. Since
this matter had been last brought before the House, additional in.
termation had been laid before them but that information
was such as ought only to induce a further delay. The
Honourable Meinher for Beverley had clearly pointed nut
that the additional information ought to make them
pause before they carried out a system which he believed
to be fraught wih danger. Some most influential gentlemen waited
last year on the Bight Hon. Baronet, the First Lord of the Trea-
sury, relative to the existence of ..lavery in India, and it appeared
that the Right Hon. Baronet had previously considered the subject.
Ile (Mi. Wakley) hail seen those parties since, and they had anti.
ciliated that tome measure would have been brought forward on
this subject. They considered it as an opprobrium on this country
which had done so snitch for the abolition of slavery generally, that
it had done nothing to abolish slavery in India. He
did hope that the Noble Lord the Secretary for the
Colonies would abandon the intention which he had expressed of
still embracing the emigration of Hill Coolies to the Mauritius ;
and he further hoped, that the Noble Lord would present the
House with all the information on the matter which had arrived
at the Colonial-office before they went farther. Then, the House,
being; in possession of that information, would be able to decide
with touch more confidence on the question.
Mr. C. BULLER said he should support the Government mea.
sore, as a good, a wise, and a salutary measure.—(Hear, hear.)
He had always thought that the fairest emigration should be al.
lowed—all that was required was, in his miud, a regulation as to
the mode its which that should be carried out, and he thought mea.
sures sufficiently precautionary hail been proposed by the
• Noble Lord the late Secretary for the Colonies in
the year 1840. The Noble Lord proposed that precautions
should be taken by the Governor. General of India to prevent fraud
there, that similar precautions should be adopted in the Mauritius,
and that the labourer should be at liberty to make whatever en-
gagements he thought proper when he arrived at the Mauritius.
Ile said that he agreed in the object of the Government, and he
could not but express his gratification that the removal of one
class of gentlemen from one side of the House, and the possession
of their places by another, was followed, as it always was, by
removing the obstacles in the way of sound and practical MeaSUICA.
—(" Hear," and laughter.) He could not, however, agree
to the manner in which the measure had been in.
troduced, and he thought the Government ware charge.
able with want of due precaution. lie did not see
why the Noble laud should issue an Order in Council a few days
before the opening of Parliament, which could have no other effect
than to unsettle men's minds —(Hear.) It was an essentially mcdi.
tative question, because the Noble Lord took four or five months
to collect and work out his idea; but he thought it extraordinary
that the East India Company were not consulted on the measure,
• because, without their consent, it would be perfectly nugatory. The
Noble Lord had said he could not grant papers which did not exist.
—(Hear.) However, when the subject would be brought before
Parliament, he could assure the Noble Lord of that hearty coope-
ration on his part which had been denied by Hon. Gentlemen oppo.
site to the late Government.— (Cheers.)
Lord STANLEY said, that the Hon. Gentleman was mistaken
in supposing that be had had no communication witht h&.East India
Comp
I.lbaonryo.ughle wheni hapdrerseidryen
President
frequent
ocaormdmoufneicoartiitorioisi
;waitnhd
wLohernd
he said that no instructions had been given, he ought to recollect
that the motion was for the production of papers and dmpatches,
which he had no means of obtaining except through Lord Ellen.
borough.
Mr. LINDESAY said that having come in a vessel from inain,
freighted with Hill Coolies, he could not reconcile to himself the
inducements that were held out to than to emigrate, but on the
other hand he did not see how tilty could be prevented from
emigrating if they chose, and liked to get to the best Market
fur their labour,—(Hear, hear.)

After Mew words from Mr. C. BILLER, Mr. BINGRAII BA-
RING, and Mr. Ilona,

Mr. FORBES said that he entirely approved of a ' system of
em;gration to the Mauritius under proper regulations.
Mr. V. SMITH replied. He rejoiced that the discussion had.
taken piece, as it had elicited information of which the House was
not in possession, still he augured ill for the measure from the ad.
mission that the Noble Lord had not the cooperation of the East
India Company, nor had given any instructions to the Governor-
General. As there were no instructions, therefore, he should
withdraw his motion.