The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-25 00:00:00

must enter upon the consideration of it at once, hut he could
assure them that nothing short of what he had stated would
satisfy Ireland.
Lord PALMERSTON did not intend to go into the ex-
traneous topics which had been introduced in the course of the
debate—" sufficient for the debate was the question thereof."
If his Hon. Friend had brought forward his motion under the
circumstances, and in the same circumstances in which he first
gave notice, he should have felt it to be his duty
to vote against it, unwilling as he had been to
take any step. which could by any remote possibility
have impeded the Government Bill, which, to a certain extent,
had been carried ; but the course which the Right Hors.
Gentleman had since taken, had enabled him (Lord Palmer-
ston) to give the motion his support. The question the Hon.
Member had now brought forward was this, Whether there was
not another fund from which the grant proposed by this Bill
could not be supplied? The Hon. Member had originally
asked why should not the great be takea from the Consolidated
Fund ; but he had altered his motion, and he now
asked, why not procure it from the funds crea-
ted by the reduction of the Irish Church establishment ?
He ( Lord Palmerston) would have voted for the motion for
supplying the grant from the Consolidated Fund, if he had
persevered in it ; but he ( Lord Palmerston) would prefer that
this money should be taken from the other source, and there-
fore he would give his vote in favour of that proposition. The
first question the House had to consider was, could there be a
surplus of Church funds sufficient to meet this demand, after
providing what was necessary for the support of the Protestant
Church established in Ireland ?—( Hear, hear.) He did think
that no person, who had heard the statements made upon
that subject, but would feel satisfied that ample funds would
still remain for the proposed measure, after providing in the
most ample manner for the Protestant Church.—( Hear.)
Then, he would ask, had this House authorised the Govern-
ment to make this grant? lie should say that no Member,
who had voted for the Church Temporalities Act, could dis-
pute that the House had that power. The resources
of the Church, it had been admitted, were at the
disposal of the State, who held them in trust for certain uses ;
if that were- so, then, he would contend for it, that those who
had brought in the Church Temporalities Bill should make
such use of this surplus fund as it was quite apparent it was
intended for. On those grounds, then, he would vote for the
endowment of the College of aynooth out of this fund.—
( Hear, hear.) He knew he would be met by the statement
that this would be going a step beyond the appropriation
clause, and that granting a sum for education in Maynooth
from this source would be granting money for the exclusive
education of Roman Catholics. But he contended that the
Church Temporalities Bill did not repudiate such an applica-
tion of the funds, for they were intended for the purposes of
general education of the Irish people, the great majority of
whom were Roman Catholics. If, then, it should be found that
the Established Church did not require the api lication of the
whole of those resources, then he would feel no diffieulty what-
ever in applying them to aid the religious instruction of the
people of Ireland. —( Cheers.) In Ireland there were eight
millions of people, of whom seven millions were Roman Ca-
tholics. In Ireland there was a large Church establishment,
which educated about one-half of the Protestants of that coun-
try, and the State paid, by a grant, for the religious instruction
of the other half; and was it then possible that this House
could contemplate six and a half millions of the poorest portion
of the people of that country re •eiving religious instruction
from their clergymen, who were dependent for their support
upon what they received by going from door to door, and from
farm to farm, to collect the means of ex'stence?—( Hear, hear.)
Whatever might be the result of this discussion, depend upon
it, this country would be compelled, sopner or later, to adopt
some such measure. —(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.")
For a long while party prejudices would not permit this ques-
tion to be brought forward ; in the meantime it had been
freely discussed outside, and at length the force of argument
had become so strong as to produce a reaction, and then the
Government came forward with their measure ; but they came
when the time had gone by—they came forward when their
spontaneous offering appeared not what it wa-e but as a sur-
render to fear, which he .vas sorry to see, and which he felt
assured the Right Hen. Baronet opposite (Sir R. Peel) did
not intend.—( Hear, hear.) However, he did hope that this
impression would not have the effect of deterring the Govern.
ment from the path they had resolved on to pursue, in regard
to the prosecution of other means of conciliation which he be-
lieved they had in contemplation.—( Hear, hear.) There were
many other questions of a conciliatory character to Ireland
which he hoped to see brought forward, and the carrying out of
which would soon prevent the use of such expressions as " a
hostile nation" applied to England.--(Cheers.) But if the
Government imagined that this alone would be sufficient to ac-
complish perfect tranquillity in Ireland, they would find their
mistake, for there this would be looked upon as a measure
yielded to fear, and not elicited by conviction.—( Cheers.)
Mr. SIDNEY HERBERT—Sir, I mean to say a few
words before the debate closes, and they shall be very short. I
shall not enter into the question of the Protestant Church
Establishment, and i will make no further allusion even to the
motion the Hon. Member for Sheffield has brought forward
than to say that I deeply regret that this question should have
been brought forward now—first, because I think that it will
be little understood is Ireland, and next, that it is introducing
for discussion between the leading parties of this House abstract
principles which have no reference to the measure before the
House, an: also because the only influence of this motion, if
successful, must be, of course, to destroy the measure before
the House. I should have thought this system of introducing
the assertion of principles into the discussion .of particular mea-
sures had already led to so much inconvenience in the hands
of the Honourable ' Gentleman himself, that he would
have been the last person to have proposed such
a course. Look to that measure which was admitted on both
sides of the House to have been of paramount necessity for
the tranquillisation of Ireland—the meaure, fur the settlement
of the tithe question. Look to the annual attempts that were
made to introduce that suicidal clause, which long delayed the
settlement of that question. But, Sir, I have risen on this
occasion more especially to call the attention of the House to
the statement which was made last evening and repeated again
to-night, in spite of tho emphatic contradiction given to it by
my Right Hon. Friend, namely, that this measure had been
brought forward, not from any sense of justice, not from any
preconceived opinion as to its fitness for the state
of Ireland, or the effect it might have on
the tranquillisation of that country, but that it had
been extracted by fear and alarm, created by the Oregon
question. —(Cheers. ) Sir, I think it was shown by dates last
night that this measure was contemplated—nay, more, that it
was already put into shape long before the question arose re-
specting the Oregon territory.— (Cheers.) It was announced
long before any suspicion was excited in •this country with
regard to the territorial boundary of North America, or that
any rupture was feared. It was stated further that the Bill
had been actually drawn, nd Roman Catholic prelates con-
sulted so far back as November last. Nay, I may say more.
During the last session, when the discussion took place on
the vote for education, and likewise for the grant
to Maynooth, on the introduction of the subject
the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Waterford (Mr.
Wyse) called the attention of the Government to academical
education in Ireland, and my Right Hon. Friend at the head
of the Governmennt, in answer to that speech, said the subject
had already been under the consideration of the Goverment ;
that only the lateness of the session, and his unwillingness to
bring on so important a measure for the prosperity of Ireland,
had prevented them bringing forward the measure. I can go
back to a still higher date because a communication was made
to me by the Government on the subject of this measure. I
say, therefore, that nothing can be more contrary to the fact
than that any unworthy motive had actuated the Government
motive, I think, disgraceful to the character of her Ma-
jesty's Government, and me which I am anxious to
repel, not only because I think it would produce
a most unfavourable impression as to the character
and conduct of the Government, but would greatly diminish the
good effects to be anticipated from this measure. I very much
regret that the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Edin-
burgh, forgetful of all these facts, has studiously tried to fix
this imputation on the Government. I regret this much, be-
cause it appeared to me that the Right lion. Gentleman was
thinking less of the benefits this measure might produce in
Ireland, than of the degree of party strife it might cause.—
( Cheers, and counter-cheers.) I perfectly understand those
cheers, but, I must say, that. I drag a great distinction between
the course the Whig party has pursued on this occasion, and
that which they formerly pursued. I am as willing as any
man to acknowledge any disinterested support of the Govern-
ment. I must say, however, that the Right Hon. G9tlemen
the Member for Edinburgh has taken a course
diametrically opposite to that which was taken by
the Noble Lord, and has endeavoured studiously to Sx a
charge of ineonsietency on the Government, and in such a
manner as might be calculated to injure the success of this
measure in Ireland. Let it go forth to Ireland that this mea-
sure been extorted by fear, and all its advantages wil. be
lost. If throush that cause the measure should be ineffective
for tranquillising Ireland, the responsibility will be with the.
Right Hon. Gentleman. lf, on the contrary, the anticipa-
tion of her Majesty's Government shall be realised—if the
measure does produce tranquillity—if it should have the
effect of attaching the feelings of the Roman Catholic priest-
hood—if it does carry out the views of her Majesty's Go-
vernment, then the Right Hon. Gentleman will have thi s
consolasion, that it was not for want of his opposition that
the measure had not failed in tranquillising Ireland.—( Hear.)
I allude to this because I think we ought not to admit the
ciaims of the frequenters of Conciliation Hall in the success of
this measure. I have already stated that this measure was
first announced in answer to a speech of the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman the Member for Waterford, and that it has arisen from
no sudden external cause whatever. This measure is to be
attributed to those gentlemen in Ireland, and those Roman
Catholic prelates, who not fearing the consequences, and ex-
posing themselves to great obloquy, and great misrepresents-
Con, and great abuse, nobly stayed aloot from agitation and
refused to have any partnership in measures which
they dissapproved of. The Government were determined to
bring forward this measure, not as a bribe, not as a concession,
but as a measure which they believed to be right--and they
bring it forward because they believe it to be right, and because
they believe and know that there are Roman Catholic Gentle-
men, and Roman Catholic prelates, who are most anxious to
give their influence in promoting the prosperity and good
order of Ireland.—( Cheers.) I undertook to say as few words
as possible. I was anxious to vindicate the Government from
this charge which has been made against them.-eto vindicate
them from the charge of inconsistency in bringing
forward this measure, a measure which they supported when
in Opposition, and which they now earry out when in office ;
and I was anxious, likewise, to vindicate them from the impu-
tation of this measure having been extorted from them by
menace and fear and by the dread of a hostile foreign country.
It was a sense of justice which prompted them to put it forward,
and I beg the House to recollect, that when agitation was ripe in
Ireland,that was not the moment the Government chose for bring-
ing this measure forward. It was after the law bad vindicated
itself, and a comparative state of tranquillity had been established,
that they did feel it their duty, in conformity with their declara-
tion, that they would govern Ireland with impartiality, justice, and
conciliation, to bring forward this measure in redemption of
that pledge, and I trust that it will be received in Ireland in
the same spirit in which it has been conceived, and whatever
three's the Government may receive from Exeter-Hall, or
from the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Edinburgh,
neither one nor the other will deter the Government from pur-
suing that course which they conscientiously feel to be neces-
sary for the tranquillity of Ireland.—(Cheers. )
Sir H. W. BARRON rose amidst loud cries of " Oh, oh !"
"divide, divide." He said he would not detain the House for
many moments at that late hour of the night—but being the
only Catholic Member from Ireland who had risen during the pre-
sent debate, he was anxious to explain the reasons upon which
he would give his vote ; and he trusted the House would ex-
tend its indulgence to him while doing so.—(Hear, hears )
He had always been an open, firm, decided, and manly oppo.
nent of the present Government; but when he saw them
changing the principles upon which they acted
when in Opposition, lie tendered them his own
thanks, and the thanks of his constituents. Seeing the
spirit in which the Government were disposed to act towards
Ireland, he could not consistently vote for the motion of his
Hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield. —( Hear.) He thought
it would he gross ingratitude towards the Government, if ho
were to vote for the motion. That motion was most inoppor-
tune and ill-timed, and taken in connexion with the measure of
the Government, he could not conscientiously support it. He
would not answer the taunts and abuse which had been cast
upon the Roth:in Catholics by petitions and speeches in that
House. They exhibited little of charity or religion. s -He was
glad that in the meetings held in Ireland, no such calumnious
or abusive language was heard. If the Right Hon. Baronet
followed up the measure for the endowment of Maynooth by
other measures, he would find that no part of the British do-
minions might be more easily governed than Ireland.—(Hear.)