The Sun.
London, England, 1820-10-17 00:00:00

HOUSE OF LORDS-MIS DAY

THE QUEEN.

This' morning Counsel were called in at twenty

`minutes past ten.
. The Loan CHANCELLOR then observed, with
reference to the yesterda'y's proceedings, that the
Learned Counsel wi-N about to put a question re-
specting some papers whiCh related to the con-
duct of Vimicarti, who was alleged to have in-
tluced_evidence by undue means to come forward.
The case thus alleged was different to all' others,
As through the whole of the evidence respecting
that person, he appeared only as an Advocate, and
he should be very sorri to come to a decision on
his acts, upon the narrow ground yesterday laid
,A question had occurred to him respect-
ing this business, on which he wished the assist-
ance of the Learned Judges, not only for his own
guidance, but for that of their Lordships. The
-question had relation to what kind of proceed-
iugs wOuld be adopted in the. Courts below, if
--Vimicarti were assumed to he an agent, ,though
te had not been proved to be so ;. and also assum-
ing that the testimony now offered was relevant.
The Noble and Learned Lord then proposed the
.question.he had in view.
Earl-GREY objected to putting the question to
the Judges at all, as whatever might be their
opinion,, be was disposed to reject it. It
,ap-
peared that Vimicarti had been most active in
the business, though he had no ,authority to pro-
cure one witness. There was indeed no strict
proof of his agency, and accordingly he must take
an exception to the role of law, which was not
'applicable in this .case, where their Lordships
.tvere noW sitting as Judges in a criminal pro-
e4ding of the highest nature Ile wished to put
the matter to the Judges as connected with
a criminal proceeding, whether, if it should
appear that there had been attempts to cor-
rupt the, witnesses, no matter by whom, it did
not become their Lordships to relieve the case
from all suspicion, by receiving evidence to the
alleged fact. lie thought their Lordships bound
to receive the evidence, and place no confidence
in the
,argument of the Noble .Earl'opposite as to
their not introducing a new rule. Ile wished, if
possible, to adhere to the rules of law ; but if
there was a suspicion of an attempt to corrupt the
evidence, whether by the prosecution or defence,
they were bound to explode the Nhole of the
Conspiracy in justice to so High and Illustrious
an Individual, who had interests at stake infi-
nitely more valuable than life. With respect to
_ _ _

Philips' law of evidence, the authority of which

had so much been insisted on, it went only to
civil actions, whereas this was a criminal pro-
ceeding; and, therefore, be hoped their Lord-
ships would not turn their backs on investigation.

The Earl of LIVERPOOL was satisfied that his

Noble and Learned Friend would have no ob-
jection to insert the word " criminal" for "
in the question he proposed to put to the Learned
Judges, with file consent of the House. lie
thought, however, the Noble Earl had taken a
mistaken view of the subject, as the investigation
he wished had no relation to the issue of the case
now depending. The Noble Earl wished it to be
considered as a criminal prosecution, and he
could only say, that be would not shrink from
that consideration, as all the proceedings of

Criminal Law must be decided on the same
, principle. It was not proposed to bring
evidence to the corruption of witnesses
who had appeared at the bar, but of wit-
nesses who had liot appeared there. He
also thought, that if an inquiry was intended
to be brought forward, some notice of it should
have been given to Virnicarti and Colonel Brown.
lie had MY objection that the Milan Commis-
sioners should be called to their Lordships' bar,
but he trusted they would hear evidence to the
conduct of that Commission first, before they ad-
mitted evidence againA it.
Lord. ERMINE thought the evidence should be
rejected, if it was proper to reject it, but if pro-
per to be received at all, it should be received
row. The question in his opinion ought not to
Le put to the Judges, and he cohicided in opinion
with his :Noble Friend. He deprecated the
whole course of proceeding against the Queen,
who never had the advantages she ought
to have had. He contended that her
Majesty's Counsel had a right to prove
that a Conspiracy existed, and for that
pvrpose to call witnesses who had never been
seen in it. This had actually been done at the

Old Bailey some years ago i a came in which
lit- himself was engaged, where he. Proved the
Conspiracy to exist first, and then traced it to the
&gen ts, and through them to the original source. Ile

asserted the right to prove the fact of corruption
against her Majesty, then to bring it home either
to Vimicarti or to Colonel Brown, and if pos-
sible to any one else. lie trusted tho fairness
of•the Noble Earl opposite would not resist the
evidence, which was offered to prove the acts of
the agent, and through their acts, the corruption
of the principal. ltastelli's conduct, for instance,
in offering to pay Gariolini's bill, and wishing him
to depose against the Queen, was unexampled in

the history of J usisprudenee: I was offered to be

.proVed that agents had gone about, and offered
money to corrupt the .witnesses against the Queen.
If this could be proved by persons pot at all con-
nected with the Milan Commission, he believed
there Was no man, unless Within the wails. of Bed-
lam, who would-declare it-was no prof. if their
Lordships could not collect the probable froth the
improbable, he could only say, they were not
fitted for the situations they held.. He could not
express what he had suffered in his mind on ac-
count of this business, from an anxiety-that full
justice should be done. lie would even ask the
Noble Earl. opposite, now, whether. if lie bad
known .before what he at present knew, he would
have proceeded to the length he had,?—Talking
of:Courts of Justice was irrelevant to the point.
These tribunals. never had to decide such a cause,,
and therefore their Lordships were,not bound by
the ordinary rules of these Courts. All he asked
ryas, to be allowed to skew the existence of a