The Sun.
London, England, 1820-05-10 00:00:00

WEDNESDAY, MAY 10, 1620

I'ARLI A MENT,

HOUSE OF LoRDS, MAY 9.
MISCELLANEOUS.

In a Committee of Privileges, their Lordships
received evidence in verification of the titles of
the present Noble Possessors to the Peerages of
Northland and Garvagh, to asithorize their Lord-
ships to vote at the election of Irish Peers, &c.
which being satisfactory, the same was ordered
to he entered opan the Journals.
On the resuming of the House, Prayers were read, and the
Oaths were administered to the following Peers, who took
their seats accordingly:—
The Earls of Chatham, Romney, Manvers, Harewood, and
Roden, and to Lord Suffield.
The Oaths of Abjuration and Fidelity being duly adminis-
tered to Madame Marie Jeanne Massinglicde, the Bill for
Naturalization was read the second time, and ordered to the
consideration of an Outdoors Committee.

vv
Mr. BRADLEY, from the Mint Office, presented an account
of the present market prices of Silver, pursuant to a recent
order of their Lordships; and upon the motion of Lord
KING, it. wag oidered to be printed.
The Marquis of LANSDOWN gave notice of his intention
to inure on Friday next, for an account of the allowances
made to Foreign Ministers for the last ten years.
Adjourned till ten to-morrow, when it is proposed to hear
Appeals only, from that hour till oiie o'clock.

HOUSE OF CONINIONS.
AGRICULTURAL pti:TrrioNs

Mr. GOOCH presented a Petitio❑ signed by 5100 Land
Owners and Cultivators in Suffolk, complaining. of the dis-
tressed state of apiculture, and of the es occasioned by
the importation of foreign corn. They proved that the
House would take the same into consideration.

_
The Petition was read, and ordered to lie on the table.
A iimilar Petition was presented, signed by the Grand
Juty of the saute Comity.
Sir kc . LEMON presented a like Petition from the county
of Cornwall.

Mr. HOLM'', STSNINER, in presenting a Petition of the
same nattier, from the Cou.•ty of Surrey. took occasion to in-
troduce it with a few remarks. He said, the depressed state
of agriculture, and the ruin to which those occupied wnh it
were tending, was too obvious to require being insisted tin.
No subject could he imagined more imperatively demanding
the attention which the Petitioners prayed might be given
to it. There were in the hands of Members an infinite num-
ber of Petitions to be offered to the House, to the same effect
with those presented this evening; and, in consideration of
this fact, he would abstain from going into any detail upon
the question, and he hoped other GetitirioCll would also re-
frain froM partially discussing it, till all those documents were
before them. That they might then have an opportonity of
doing Si,i he gave notice that he would, on the :30th of May,
move that the matter should be referred to a Select Com-
mittee. _

Gentral GASCOIGNE took this early opportunity of de-
precating any such discussion as that purposed by the Hon.
Gentlesuan. He trusted the House would pause before it was
persuaded again to agitate the Corn Bill, and excite that
strong sensation which such a proceeding was calculated to
produce. He, for One, would oppose the appointment of
such a Committee, whose sole object was the repeal of the
Corn Bill.

All the Petitions were laid on the table, and the last order-
ed to be printed.
Several Members took the oaths and their seats.
Mr. 1). W. HARVEY moved for a return of the amount of
Coin seized by the Revenue Officers in September, 1811, and
belonging to a Mr. Thompson, together with an account of
its appropriation.—Agreed to.
Mr. MABERLF.Y gave notice of a motion for Thursday,
respecting the issue of Fxchequer Bills.
Sir JOHN NEWPOR.f moveJ, that an account of certain
articles imported from Enl.land into Ireland for the last seven
years should be laid before il;e House, which was agreed to.

on the regard to, the life of mau which it was not
only very natural to entertain, but very proper to
be cultivated by all Legislators and Rulers. This
was what every one wished to preserve, and be-
tides being the most popular, might, perhaps,
without any departure from sound reasoning, be
considered to be the strongest ground on which
the question could be placed. But still there were
objections made, which left it in a state of vague-
ness and uncertainty. There were persons in all
times of particular habits, and perhaps of stern
characters, who, contetnplatiog the evil to society
which resulted from crime, were glad to avail them-
selves of the ut&iSt rigour, under the idea that
they might thereby prevent their commission.
This argument was of some weight, but in this coun-
try, where in proportion to their number punish-
ments were so uutrequeotly inflicted, it lost a good
deal of its general twee. The letter of our laws
detiounc'd death for a number of offences, but
practically visited few with that expiation. And
he might remark, that this had arisen on a train
of accidents, and not on the refined principles of
legisletion which had in modern times been
brought-forward as its vindication. It had arisen
from the humanity of the nation counteracting
that disposition which had been evinced during
the 1811► century to legislate on every subject. It
generally happened in other investigations, that
these who wished to alter or innovate were
charged with the love of paradox; but it so hap-
pened sometimes, as in the present instance; that
paradox was on the side of those who contended
for the cowinuance of ancient institutions. A
most able, learned, and excellent writer of the
present—he feared he must say of the last—age,
Dr. Paley, bad defended our practice by ergo..
mews of this Idiot, rather than by employing the
usual soundness of his judgment and powers of
discrimination. Such things happened by a cu-
rious operation of the human mind ; instead of
defending new opinions, in order to gratify the
love of singularity, men were sometimes led to
distinguish themselves by advocating antiquated
abuses, and taking up those opinions which all
other enlightened men had abandoned. This
course, he would allow, belonged generally'to
se-
condary talents. -But by it. might be explained
one of theNtrange anomalies of a very distin-
guished Member of that House (Mr. Windham),
who seemed to seek a chivalrous distinction by
defending what all the rest of the world had given
up, To return to Dr. Paley ; his writing had
certainly produced one good effect, for it had
been the great cause of exciting a Gentleman,'
whose loss was so touch felt, and whose name no
eulogy of his could exalt, nor no censure (if at-
tempted) depress; whose great powers were
eciipsed by his greater virtues--it had been the
cause of stimulating Sir S. Ilomilly to enter on the
sot:jeer, and bring it, with 'all the bearings which
his comprehensive mind took of it, before the Le-
gislature and the Country. That distinguished man
had not introduced absolutely new principles,
(it would he difEcni, to do so in these days, on
any subject of political economy ;) bit: he had
brought from the closets of philosophers those
principles which were calculated to receive their
application front Courts and Senates. 01 Sir S.
Ronolly it alight he said, that he always retained
stusitive and shrinking humanity, which was
implanted in his nature ; sift on this occasion lie
had left his feelings out of view, and examined
'be matter as it affected the general interests.—
He had rested his arguments not on the common
imprestions of mankind, but on a calculation of
was best adapted to diminish the number of
crimes, He seemed to have demonstrated that
the effect of niulue severity was not to prevent
crone, but to destroy the effect of the terror of
eetosionent. He (Sir J. M ) had been often
s luck by a saying of the late Mr.. Fox (which by
a nreach of their privilege he had heard in that
Honk) : that eminent individual, in speaking on
toe carrying of an appeal to a higher Tribunal,
observed, that it was founded on a great philoso-
phic principle, on the inadequacy of human wis-
dom, arid ou the sense of human infirmity. The
Committee on the Criminal Laws had put this
easouiug to the test. It had called before it all
those connected with the administration of jus
tice front whom it could derive information 5 it
had examined Judges, prosecutors, and witnesses;
and the result of the whole was that their ex-
perience justified, as it would always do where the
theory was well founded, the theory on which the
inquiry proceeded: As practical men they bad
confirmed the general principles of human nature,
and shown the truth of the supposition, that seve-
rity of sentence did not operate to deter guilt from
executiog its purpose. This was the result (tithe
Committee. They had cousequently, recommended
several measures last Session, which the short meet-
ing that afterwards took place afforded no leisure
to follow up, and therefore the prosecwion of
them was deterred to the present. The first pro•
position would, as he hail intimated, be for the
re•appointment (if we might call it) of the Com-
mittee; with all the 'various objects in view which
the preceding Committee had ; and for the pur-
pose of plocuring an experimental answer to the
only valid objection which remained uncoutra•
dieted. It bad been urged that their evidence
was confined to the capital, and was not appli-
cable to the country. lint this, in his opinion,
only proved the case more completely ; since
there Crete in the Capital a greater number of
executions and of prosecutions; since the Capital
was the great source where the principle of the
system acted in full force, it was there that its
character could be best ascertained, anti a just
judgment tormed on its merits. Lilt though lie
thought this genet al reasoning a sufficient reply to
the argument, the Couitnittee were anxious to be
enabled to procure an answer in another way.
They were situ desirous ut proposing some alter-

[Pittcl SEVENPtNCFs

Sitio') in the mode of •pronotinCiog sentence, and
other points of lei§ importance. For these pur-
poses he should propose their resappointment.—
He shotild also move for leave to bring in six
Bills, pursuance Of the ttepnrt. The first three
tvduld go to repeal Stich parts of the criminal lawt
as they considered to be toe; severe upon slight
offences. One of these BiHS was to repeal the
Act of the 12(11 of Anne, chap. 7, Which made it
a capital felony to steal prieately in a dwelling-
house to the anionut of forty shillings. The se-
eond was to repeal the l eth and 11th of Williani
which matte it capital lb steal to the value
of five shillings in a shop. The third would re-
peal the 24th of George 11., by which stealing to
the amount of 40s. on a navigable river was de-
clared to be a capital offence. He Was aware that
the principal objections of spine Gentlemen were
entertained towards the last of these alterations,
,hot, lie conceived; without good fonntlation.--e
When the Duke of liridgetvater, by his stupen-
dous works, had given a new feature to the in-
dustry and OM-lions of the country, it was not
thought necessary, for the Preservation of the im-
mense property on these canals, thug tit call h lar-
ceny a capital offence. And yet, by this anomaly
in the law, that which *as so mild, more daogee
eons in one part Was made capital in another.
Two of the other Bills which he should move to
introduce, would be for the repeal of laws which
visited offences of no serious crirninality with the
severest ponishment. The Committee wished that
where no great moral guilt or injury to society
existed, the capital sentence should he done away.
For example, the. Ist and 2d of Philip and Mary,
by which it was capital for an Egyptian to remain,
in England one year. The 18(11 of Charles 11.
against notorious thieves in Cumberland and Nor-
thumberland. The capital felonies created by the
Black Act. The 9th of Ged. I. making it felony
to be found disguised in the Mint. The l2tls
Geo. 11. by which injuring Westminster Bridge,
(an offence not likely to be committed in any
heinous degree), was made. felonious. The se-
cond Bill would he directed to the repeal of laws,
which made capital felonies of crimes certainly
more serious thou those he had enumerated, bet
which did not seem to merit the etmost punish-.
merit decreed against them. Thus the alit of
Elizabeth, against the forcible abduction of heir-
esses, .(which, by the way, left poor women un-
protected, while it extended so strong an arm over
the rich,) might, without injury, be abrogated.
The 'offence was one foreign to our national
manners and feelings, and consequently very un..
likely to be committed, though he must confess,
that, in one portion of the country, where an ex-
cess and exuberance of gallantry prevailed, it was
sometimes beard ot. It was, however, quite un-
congenial with the phlegmatic disposition of Eng-
lishmen. It wmild also repeal the 21st of James
1,, on which only one person, the celebrated
Jonathan Wild, had been convicted. The 9th of
George 1., by which the wounding of cattle, and
the destroying of trees, were made capital. The
6th of Geo. H. for cutting banks of rivers, locks,
&c. ; the Marriage Act, which created five capital
felonies ; the 27th of Geo. 111. for sending threat-
ening letters ; the Act against harbouring smug-
glees contrary to the Revenue Act, would also
all be submitted for alteration. Instead of
capital punishment, [satraps), Cation and impri-
sonment would be offered as substitutes.—
The last Bill would be to consolidate and amend
the Acts relating to forgery. Its object briefly
would be to take away the capital parts
from the mere possession of forged noes, and
for tittering, would place it at the option of are
prosecutor to proceed capitally against the second
offence. Having thus explained what his chief
views were, he would shortly mention that he ex-
pected the greatest opposition to those proposi-
tions which went to take away the capital punish.
meat from the offences of private stealing in a
dwelling house, and from forgery. But in regard
to these, he was, from deliberate investigation,
not the less convinced that the alteration was
most congenial to the principle avhich he sup-
ported. The severity of their punishments ope-
rated in a peculiar degree to secure impunity for
a great many offenders. A humane master, who
was robbed by a servant long known' to him; a
hninane banker or merchant could hardly be
brought to proceed against a crime of this kind,
perpetrated generally by some one who enjoyed
their confidence; or might be related to them.
Their reluctance to prosecute, it would accord-
ingly be seen in the Report, amounted almost to
an encouragement instead of a preventive of the
crime. •He did not therefore on this score ap-
peal to the feelings of the House; be appealed to
its policy and good sense, that by lessening the
punishment the frequency of the offence would
be diminished. The Hon. Gentleman concluded
by moving his first resolution—That a Select
Committee be appointed, to take into considera-
tion the Laws respecting Capital Punishments,
and to report thereon from time to time to the
House.

Mr. CANNING observed, that by agreeing to
this resolution, no man was pledged farther than
simply that he would entertain the discussion. Fie
could assure the Hon. Gentleman, for hintselt,
and for those with whom he acted, that no oh-
ject ion to any of his propositions would be made
tor the sake of objection, and where he was op-
posed, it would be only on solid anti subs:aortal
grounds.
The Resolution was, then put and agreed to,
and the Commirtee appointed; five to be a quo-
turn, atld the Report of the last Committee re.
felled to that newly appointed.
Sir J. MACKINTOSH next proceeded to obfairk
leave, aural bring in the six Bills described in his
speech. The first for amending the capital lave
against stealing to the mount of 40s. on a Davi..