The Sun.
London, England, 1845-03-08 00:00:00

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Made by the magistrates should hereafter be made by the
Lilliinector.genesah This, he believed, was the understanding
come to. it appeared desirable that he was to become
"
eonsible for the regulation and
conduct of the men, should
gensi nate and select them. This person was the inspector-
s,e "'II. Such was stet' d to be the understanding, but. what
„a! the fact, and how did it. appear that these appointments
sad been made from the records which had been made of the
4PPZiattrients in the constabulary force in Ireland? By those re-
tiade tot was evident that the appointments in that force had been
n the plan of the Metropolitan Police Force Bill ? Well,
(-0" a! was that plan? 'Was it that the officers at the head of that
fares had the Power of appointing the superior officers of that
1,0'7,11 aueh as Captain May. Certainly not. Those officers were
ta,,,islated by the Secretary of State, and the magistrates
the these appointments under this understanding. Was this
Co'losyatern on which the appointments were made under.
gssehel Shaw Kennedy, under the Act of Parliament which
and so Shaw
of those appointments to the inspector-general,
eettaers to the Lord-Lieutenant9 Did the Noble Marquis
.th the recommendations of Colonel Shaw Kennedy ?
The Marquis of NORMANRY—He spoke of promotions.
ale Duke of WELLINGTON—He spoke of promotions
th-r"--of promotions from the positions of inferior officers to ,
Tp?sitions of superior officers. Did the Noble Marquis act
1r,t1:1.3 principle—on the principle of the very Act
.which he
j,4 hitnself introduced ; and were the recommendations of the
arcsl:ector-Genersil carried into effect ? Why, by the very first
thatutifensent entered into, with respect to Col. MsGregor—
aiderecie appointments, which were, of all appointments,.eon-
e aft the most valuable, those from the position of ordinary
The ables to be head constables, were taken away from him.
Were also from the rank of sergeant-major to be. officers
fail. a_4o carried on under the same rule's. By this means,.
to 'wo-thirde of the patronage which ought, according
the h representations of the Noble Marquis, to be vested in
lie "us of Colonel M'Gregor were taken from his office.
eh trendedco that the Lord Lieutenant had a right, if he
IlsZe, make all those appointments. All he (the Duke of
conaeularhn) desired was that he should not be called. upon tot
!mei, to this motion to criminate the
.Lord-Lieutenan ,
Oto: °ll„the ground of an understanding which had never ea-
gles, Ile said that the Lord-Lieutenant had a right
.to make
Pat! aPPointments. Not a word could be said against the
Mee ernan who had been appointed, and to whom the Noble
q' had
highest referred. That gentleman was a man of th
motion, character. There was no ground, therefore,for
.this
Nara and he called upon their Lordehips to resist it. With
ettsa`„: atlil the second motion he confessed that he
bthought. it
t asr's'aar that th Nobles Lord should found sue a motion
,riialleal;:tl;?uesYe on a speeechmade bya' Member of Parliament to
laded nls on his election.. The Noble Marquis had al-
reotat the state of Ireland in 1840 and 1841. Were there no
Lisa that Meetings in those years ? He thought he could show
Lisa
'at there were at least a dozen in each year. Were
salne,!'u,„ speeches made at those monster meetings, and no
(siletirTha by foreigners? He thought there were.—
atrr Those meetings were supposed., by th.e
tican, b be held for the purpose of procuring petia
s St e
d sae , not a word respectir g petitions was ever uttered
"Nesial°' those meetings. At these meetings threats of all
,°,f:thels'a'uhss Were held out against the constituted authoritiss
;sat taaahntry. And yet they were told that the country at
he Ras was in a state of tranquillity. If this was tranquil..
th; "ad never known what tranquillity was. With respect
theta • returns he had not the slightest objection to give to
itas,lf.ehwut he should like at the same time the Noble Lord to
tng tsh words to his motion, calling for other returns, show-
thehts Is at number of traps were sent away from Ireland in
e a-the years. He thought the Noble Lord would find that
thereaMbers sent to and taken away, ware nearly equal.
"ere note few troops either in this country or Ireland that
tkteNetnal!sollitey and essentially necessary to provide re'fo the
ale PloYed abroad to guard our foreign possessions, id
ille4 Ire the lives of her Majesty's subjects in them. Ire-
tileirhY the forces wer not kept at hoe till th tie of
Seas enle services had expired and atm this momente m there
ahowt to be sent from this country who had not been
a'and a sufficient leneth of time to admit of their being
b°ll4„ritliPlied• The Noble- Lord, therefore, would find
op; these returns to commit the Government, the Se-
Os 1,,%ar, or any other person connected with the army.
lihtio:"' he find anything to support his argument, that any
force had been kept in Ireland.
hitiaß behe
ep of FORTESCUE said that some observations
f well eh Made by the Noble Duke, implicating his co.nduct,
'hatet that of his Noble Friend who preceded him, with re-
t4,',4this t 0 understanding which was stated to have existed
a:Pesto—`:jeet, and relating to the power of the constabulary
a, he nominate persons entitled to promotion in the
tee e trusted their Lordships would allow him to trouble
1114,1,1tt ‘r!lfitha a few observatiens. He would remind their Lord-
ts'a of h speech made by the Right Hon. Gentleman at the
f
Its er alajesty's Government, upon the introduction o
Conoabulary Bill, on the 15th of February, 1836.
tts°lo4l44ht Ron. Gentleman,' on that occasion, stated that
ests 4saw Kennedy shoud have the appointment of all
aaalerthliklee him, for whose conduct he was responsible.
understanding he believed that Colonel Macgregor
t the to the appointment of inspector-general of the force.
gaiprotnotions were understood to be of this description.
lihttset ah.t colonel was to have the power to promote a
ta'°„the rank of officer, and it was left, he be-
`he Lord-Lieutenant to promote the
.officer!.
th.lyttill e promotion of an officer to a higher rank was urn-
koern tl to the recommendation of the inspector-general.
issaildr:aint made by Colonel Macgregor was, that a person
liktuinrnended to fill the situation of a stipendiary maps-
sestrea not been appointed to that situation. Colonel
hah",' however, had no right whatever, under the terms
is,. leak' lierstanding, to make any such complaint, the
elm foseY magistracy being a totally distinct body to the
dstiesk„!. Still, he must confess, that of all the stipen-
1141,14 se'snrates appointed in Ireland none performed their
tic tltrale efficientl or more to the honour of themselves,
LPii 'isho were taken from the constabulary force. No
Vitiated' itiad been ade agaiust the gentleman who had been
tlit6Y of ihr,t that instance • and so far as he had had an oppor-
tO"srai—ling, he believ'ed the gentleman fully capable of
al Oil the duties of the office; but he wished it by no
-14t,,,tilit° 115 understood that he thought him superior ,
assl asresnect to the gentleman recommended by
k it;laagre or. The re commendation, however, '
ileat'isePeetor gge.n.eral being slighted,. they complained that
kaHrb:teetslid_ been. injured, and it was upon. this ground that he
sew e motion of the Noble Marquis. The Noble Duke
at ',hie}, teased to refer to the state of Ireland, and the meet-
ksi th, "ad been held in that country in 1840 and 1841,
teats, wiikht the Noble Duke would be fair and just enough
,la{sreakitith hirn that these meetings could not for one moment
ishirk,with the monster assemblies . held in. the. year
,tkrte‘s, the with
since been so frequently discussed in that as
,s other House of Parliament. If meetings of the
S4,lilae-aethire described by the Noble Duke had beeneaslloownse.d.
„kshathes 'he ( Lord Fort escue) would have been r. p i
; and, certainly, if they had jeopardized the
Ireland, he could never have been able to stand
as House and defend his own Administration.
stlliteseakthst remind the Noble Duke that when
'"e Government first took office, Sir R. Peel,.
tthlr to
tes e pr. some complimentary observation made by
in lend Lord John Russell, admitted that they found
te,sb aeae,
ass ea, e,Paratieely tram-1111 and peaceful. state. The
sl6-7%ihoieuact POintedly
.to the collection of funds
,I,Arata Meetings. Now, during th. e whole time he had
iNreet te be connected with the Irish Government, th.e
wa% ire 1' d r 100/. a-week, and never in
asiii stlt t, quent un e d seoos Their Lord-
kbNsP,tl'as•:,W,,Se that during the years 1843 and 1844 the I
tirssi l-irosn 1 000/ to 2,000/. a-week, and even at the
At all believed the collections amounted to 500/. or
L'lt 'ad avents, he might state the average to be between
Zistsitlsiad sh., and this was sufficient to indicate the feeling
tilt iktaa the subject of repeal. He was afraid, therefore,
01,0 sis;-hteould be made in the state of Ireland now, with
117 t,how‘wnen he had the honour to hold office. He.
osai`lasasaer, abstain from drawing inferences until
tot 'sere before them—( Hear)—at the same time
sAt remarkingi that the condition of Ireland had
hit sat latter years. A change, he was glad to see,
to d
kvt -sale '''‘an upon the country, and if the. Govern-i
s lase
their carry out their present intentions with regard
11144
tt„?sib „e Could be no question they would soon bring
ItN4,to make s'le of things. He thought the grants they
l'stist I,4N' pto increase the number and powers of Ro-
Ooalleasitaerileges were likely to
.secure the future wel-
ltNs sti's , and create a better feeling in Ireland towards
tat:heal to in I.le had supported the appointment of the Com-
Js'4,Stat Ilan's, into the relation of landlord and t7rant
ain
ktltloas
iwas happy to say the results ot Isat inqu
tyihn_d
), nis original views on that subject. Cer amy
Cp Shtle araaree in all the suggestions contained in the report ;
aorne which entirely
ariagreed with what he
Viet,'asaa-aat° be done icri Ireland, dhe only hoped the
;tii Per i "aid carry them into effect. The general tone
ilpat Whieh this report was drawn up was no more
aret ti e 4 expected from the high moral character odf
the
I‘aji*,,saleretsh9 headed the Commission ; and he htbopte
eon-
'ils`siSll to to7eive at the bands of the Government a
aLt kst 1ta41",..,1eh it was so justly entitled.
S 4 P„e Of the said an observation had been made in
litatats'e-let:lebate upon a speech delivered by a Right
t, Be' iss' 'Lis upon the election hustings, which he could
attit hsaythieas without a remark. He way perfectly certain
thstt Hug had been stated in the report of the speech
ki Nal ftet ,11." Friend which was not in strict accordance
tos\dAt aljil'eavt his Right Hon. Friend had been misrepre-
kp,iistb, to him vents, if he hail made use of the expressions
is'eaot he must have used them asa figure of speech,.
stela l'" ern as a deliberate statement of fact, because
I;`sel% t Ithesnaes could have so grossly and diabolically stated
kktLed fact- No doubt the expression was uttered
thel-queriue, and it was on that account excusable.
tee' that Colo 1 Macgregor had been consulted,
th ittdiva, ne
It: le' on lunal whom he reco,nmended was not taken,
tiit;Sis it'ile.e,,trlaseas taken, one who was allowed to be a fit
os,aste e usually taken in the appointment of magis-
hi NI 444 d '`intrY was for the Lord-Lieutenant of a county
StiStievtaset, such persons as he thought fit for the office to
tb; 141.1,1,when the Government were desirous of ap.-
ISej c'sai t ‘7lqual, or individuals, to the magistracy, it
Liohi,,qhleritsro
weol..ll,_s,ult the Lord-Lieutenant. That was
Zs; eacii Lear"t;l-ienl, he (Lord Brnmoi ham) had pur-
gw
filled by his
t.st4ealt,)
ne.,a t.hed officethe
Woolsack. lie had
Vs'44ttis% wisiri,leci to u
esi consult the on
lord-Lieutenants of counties
tsslaletes that ti th aPpoint magistrates, because. he naturally.
N'it'st %s ad le)? were most likely to be acquainted with the
lNsq
‘l,:cisttions of the gentlemen in their respective
tis.es no „ate fitted to fulfil the duties of magistrates.
sVraes‘hd kways followed the recommendation which he
Nssa"detti-ti several instances he had deviated from those
ttslrarlaQ -el' and appointedother individuals whom they
alt tlat'e't'nt Brougham) therefore thought
as! sst had sever had been put on Colonel Macgregor,
'a Anis, out, ° real ground of complaint, and he thought
it'sioltall'etilieuteZtunid not, interfere with the responsibility of
talrei teehh,a, tha Pt. If the case put before him was a fit ease
„NIL') 0-„,"ati -,rrd-Lieutenant no doubt would follow the
1,1 ''s'iaii,aion°4 ('„,uut if nut, he was not in his (Lord Broug-
ar` he c° to attnd to it, and if he refrained from
1;17 'saeas,;°nceived that his doing so was no slght to
Nes 'll4s4it nor' and that there was consequently not ground
(1141,' krq, rnotjo,
ll t' Witt,of ,
,eve,„ 'RMANBY said he had no disposition to
ilethe‘Yrta°4 the speech of the Hon. Member
lereaatrecolle j• at Salisbury, but he did exceedingly
h:cs,„Psoeear• eaa, eta'au had not been more accurate, when an
tPtf -.a t° make observations respecting any
ts "hos g without a.css4 toy°, e abse...._ any expectation of being called to
afehac vations. A time would come when it would
tatal, ' dot aeon __era of either of the Houses of Legislature
l'heY• ThianY observations upon their personal fu
h tios Nt' he conceived, was an occasion of this.
sad ad ots:er"ensber had made a speech at Salisbury, in
ht;lott",at (theyead very strongly upon proceedings in Irhe-
h out "larquis Normanby ) thought that e
ri,lttheara Loti for ti(ilue course in conceiving that there was a
n, at le the
r_ thence. observations.—( Hear, hear.) They
iteZ,lts4.epte waseasronsibility of an Opposition. He, for,o2ne,
4;%st• ghat a responsibility on the Governmen..—
'eltjait th that GM' then, would they say to a man who was
Sie ce, at,,retioverninent, and a 'member of the Cabinet,
kt,d!ie IV yet that which was expected from a man in his
ere Lia.t
-e Was to incur no responsibility for
to iee.ad all heard of the Tamworth manifesto,
wri.
ir a sly „ eirestos .
"rhelat which the principles of public men
htteht,larrpre, were ; and did their Lordships conceive that
eveeer,e not fitted for remark in that Hsiuse?
tat e ie ate aid recollect one which had excited no little
14ass att. ant th
th Stwe e declaration of a Noble Lord not then
in is Y), who had declared in his seat in
.154
._ a 4 that he could never think of joining
Ppo3itioo to whom the whole of his public