The Sun.
London, England, 1845-06-05 00:00:00

ROMAN CATHOLICS,

6,427,712 adherents, men, women, and children-8,105
ipie—to this
hr cc°oimiPges, and some thousands
community has been sustained
oplfacpersieostf worship—three
s.nsiltlrt
on the voluntary system, except the annual Parliamen-
tary grant to the College of Maynooth, and the benefit
they have had, in common with others, in the grants for
general education. In future the endowment to May-
nooth is to be permanent, and augmented ; other col-
leges are to be formed and supported by the State ;
which institutions will be wholly, or nearly so, under
the influence of the Roman Catholics ; and it seems to
be intended that in future their places of worship shall

be built and maintained at the public expense, and that
their priests shall receive regular stipends from the State

RAILWAY BILLS IN THE HOUSE OF LORDS.—Three
Railway Bills only have been brought up from the House of
Commons to the House of Lords, viz., the Chester and Holy_
head, the Leeds and Dewsbury, and the Huddersfield and
Sheffield Junction. They have been read a first time,
and referred to the Standing Orders Committee, which met
again to-day. It sits twice a week, on Tuesday and Friday.
The Standing Orders Committee will hear evidence to investigate
whether the standing orders of the House have or have not been
complied with. If they come to the former decision, then the Bills
will be read a second time, and should there be any opposition to
them, petitions signifying such is the case will be presented to the
House of Lords. The next step required is for the Bills and
petitions, if any, to be referred to the General Committee ap-
pointed for the session, and that Committee will appoint a Select
Committee of five Peers, before which Committee the evidence
will be submitted. When that Is gone through, a report will be
made to the House, favourable or unfavourable, as the case may
be. Should the standing orders prove net to have been complied
with, then a report will be made to the House stating that fact, and
directions will be given by the House as to the future proceedings.
THEATRE ROYAL, DUBLIN.—Two welcome fa-
vourites made their re-appearance in our theatre on Saturday and
last evenings. Madame Celeste and Mr. Webster have come back
for a short engagement among us, and en last evening displayed
the same excellence in their respective walks of art as had pre-
viously won for them such hearty applause in our theatre. The
entertainments of last night consisted of The Mysterious Stranger,
in which Madame Celeste had various opportunities for the exercise
of her very versatile powers. The piece is one of those melo-
dramas, presenting scenes of Parisian life in various classes of so-
ciety, all the changes of which turn out to be no more than a
dream. In The Pretty Girls of Stilberg, a little trifle, already
favourably known to the pubic, Celeste and Webster were equal to
their former excellence; nothing could be better than the effect
produced by the latter where he assumes the air and dress of Na-
poleon. The resemblance was as startling as if one of his portraits
had walked from its frame. The smut ements of the evening were
terminated by another little French piece, entitled Marie Ducange,
in which these accomplished actors exhibited their usual and well-
known skill and graceful powers.—Freeman's Journal.
MSS KELLY'S THEATRE.—This elegant little
theatre was opened last evening for the purpose of introducing to
the public two young ladies, pupils in Miss Kelly's dramatic school.
The play chosen was the Hunchback, in which Miss Way, one of
the fair students, took the arduous part of Julia. Her performance
evinced considerable talent, and an accurate conception of the cha-
racter ; but there was a want of physical power, which leads us to
apprehend that it will be some time before she finds herself at
home in a larger house. Here fair coadjutor, Miss Hinton, who
took the coquettish role of Helen. seemed quite at home in the
character. She rallied Julia with great spirit, and taught Medus
to make love with an archness and grace which elicited loud and
general applause. Both ladies are preposessing in appearance.
His Royal Highness Prince Albert has fixed Sa-
turday, the 28th inst., at three o'clock In the afternoon, for laying
the foundation-stone of the new hospital for Marylebone and Pad
dington.

MORTALITY IN THE METROPOLIS.—There has
been a considerable increase in the deaths during the last
week, the total number being 905, exceeding that of the pre-
ceding week by 95. The increase is chiefly from diseases of the
lungs and other organs of respiration. The number of violent
deaths was 29, of which 7 were suicides, and 4 from burns
and scalds. Sixteen died of small-pox, at the following
ages :—Four under 1 year ; seven 1-3 ; three 3-5 ; one 5 ;
and one 17 years.

LITERATURE.

MACGREGOR'S COMMERCIAL STATIS-

TICS. 3 Vols.
THIRD NOTICE.

In his section upon " Belgium," our author de-
scribes the physical aspect and natural resources of
the country as being exceedingly varied and fertile ;
both Flanders and Antwerp are flat, with a soil
generally composed of sea-sand and alluvious, ex-
cept in the immediate frontier adjoining Brabant.
The coast is low, with ridges of downs, pastures, and
a highly cultivated country inland (yielding in per-
fection all the crops common in England and the
North of France) ;—intersected by the Scheldt and
various canals which traverse the provinces. The
district features of these may be thus described :
Brabant and Hainault, highly cultivated, ex-
hibiting corn-fields, fruit-trees, pastures, and woods.
Liege and Namur have the same aspect, but
more undulated ; and near the Sambre, Meuse, and
the Prussian frontiers, hilly and somewhat moun-
tainous. For a small kingdom, Belgium possesses
abundant resources. In the forests, plenty of oak
and other ship timber ; below the soil, mines of iron;
seams of coal, rich ores of copper and lead, and great
store of alum, marble, limestone, potter's clay, &c.
The Meuse and the Scheldt, with their numerous
tributaries, improved and carefully connected by
canals, form an inland navigation of which the
branches extend to every corner of the kingdom.
Railroads, admirably constructed and extending from
Ostend to Liege, open a cheap and speedy inter-
course between Ostend, Bruges, Ghent, Antwerp,
Malines, Brussels, and numerous intermediate towns.
The cloth, cotton, linen, and hardware manufactures
of Belgium have very much extended themselves
since 1814. The several provinces of Belgium are
South Brabant, East and West Flanders, Ilainault,
Antwerp, Namur, Liege, Limboarg, and Luxem-
beurg, covering an area of 12,797 square
miles, and peopled by 4,022,677 souls. The
chief towns are Brussels, Ghent, Bruges, Mons,
Antwerp, Namur, and Liege, with populations,
respectively, of 112,500, 95,000, 45,500, 20,500,
77,000, 21,000, and 65,300. Though Antwerp and
(Mend are, properly speaking, the only seaports of
Belgium, yet vessels of from 200 to 300 tons can
come by sea from Ostend to Bruges, and Nieuport
will admit small vessels which may communicate
with the interior by the canals. These, with the
rivers of Belgium, extend many of the advantages of
seaports to the inland towns, as Ghent, Bruges, Brus-
sels, Liege, and most of the towns and seats of in-
dustry in the kingdom. Vessels sail from Louvain,
which is in the very centre of Belgium, with their
cargoes direct for England. The port of Antwerp,
with its spacious dock„basin, and quays, and its safe an-
chorage, is one of the best in Europe, but approached
from the sea by a tedious navigation. It has sufficient
depth for the largest vessels, and every convenience
for ship-building. In 1838, the total value of all
imports into Belgium was no less than
9,522,100/. sterling (738,052,659 f.) Of exports from
Belgium, 7,743,1801. (or 193,579,520 francs). The
annual average navigation of Belgium for the eight
years, 1831 to 1838 inclusive, was as follows :
Sailed, Belgian vessels, 470; tonnage, 57,694. Fo-
reign vessels, 1,411 ; tonnage, 173,057. Total, 1,881
vessels, of total tonnage, 230,752. The annul! ave-
rage arrivals in same year were, Belgian vessels, 475 ;
tonnage, 59,207. Foreign, 1,339; tonnage, 172,707.
Total, 1,874 vessels; of total tonnage, 231,914.
The chief articles of import were—coffee, grain, and
seeds, sugar (raw), woven goods, cotton, metals, lea-
ther, wool, tobacco, lead, rice, potass, dye stuffs, wines
and spirits, fruits, drugs, oil, spices, salt, and tea. The
chief exports, flax, woven goods, namely, cotton, dyed
and plain ; linens, table and other kinds; woollen cloths,
refined sugar; metals (nails, zinc, and other kinds) ;
glass (window and glass wares) ; bark for tanners'
use ; arms ; green and seed tobacco ; dye stuffs ;
wool ; leather, and seed oil. Out of the annual num-
ber of 45 vessels which sailed from Louvain for all
parts, 18 measuring 1,526 tons departed for England.
The value of those exports amounted to 226,500
francs. Total amount to all other parts only 11,700
francs. The French flag does not appear to have
been at all engaged in this (Louvain) branch of the
Belgian trade. The total estimated income of Bel•
gium for 1841 was 3,381,0001. sterling.

POST-OFFICE ESPIONAGE.
PROTESTS.
The following protests have been entered on the journals
of the House of Lords by Lords Clanricarde and Radnor,
after the vote of Friday night on the Post-office Amend-
ment Bill :

" 1. Because we think that the law, which in a matter
directly sifacting the rights, interests, and comfort of every class
•f the community, ought to be perfectly clear and distinct, is in the
matter to which this Bill applies obscure and doubtful, affording
neither a guarantee to the subject against inquisitorial tyranny and
the arbitrary caprice of a Minister, or certain protection to a ser-
vant of the Crown who may be led by unsound precedents to ex-
ceed his lawful authority.

"2. Because it does not appear from either of the reports of the
Secret Committees of this and the other House of Parliament, or
from any other authentic source of information, neither has it been
alleged in debate, that any danger to the State from foreign foes or
from domestic treason has ever been averted or discovered by the
stoppage or opening of letters in the Post-office ; and we therefore
gather from the experience of nearly two centuries, that no benefit
arises from a practice which is so unconstitutional, odious, and de-
moralising, that nothing but the highest interests of the State, in-
volving the peace of the country or the security of the Sovereign,
could justify or palliate its continuance without some such limit
and restraint as this Bill is calculated to impose.
" 3. Because even if we could believe that the opening of letters
in the Post-office may have been at any past time useful to the
Government and beneficial to the community at large, we should
nevertheless be convinced that it cannot in future be attended by
advantages at all eommensurate with the evil of maintaining a sys-
tem disgraceful to our Government, repugnant to the feelings of
the British people, and contrary to every principle of popular or
individual liberty. " SOMERHILL."

Protest against the negativing the second reading of the
Post-office Bill on Friday last :
" 1. Because it is doubtful whether by law any power exists of
detaining and opening letters passing through the Post-office.
" 2. Because this power, as now exercised by the Secretary of
State in England, and in Ireland by the Lord-Lieutenant, is ab •
horrent from the feelings of the people, and is immoral in itself,
being in violation of confidence, and requiring for its useful
exercise secresy, which in practice has been obtained by the
forging of seals and the falsification of stamps.
" 3. Because being exercised secretly, It cannot be questioned,
and the person who exercises it, not being known, cannot be pro-
ceeded against or made responsible.
" 4. Because, if necessary, as is alleged, for the safety of the
realm, or for the purposes of police, it ought to be clearly re-
cognised by law, regulated, and well-defined; and the provisions
of this Bill were intended for that purpose.
"5. Because the clauses and provisions against which in the
debate strong objections were urged, might have been altered in
the Committee if the Bill had been allowed to proceed, and were
not legitimate grounds for objecting to the principle or refusing the
second reading.
" RADNOR.
" DENMAN."

The following protest has also been made against the
negativing the second reading of the Post-office Amendment
Act on Friday last.:7

Because I think the law with respect to the detaining and
opening letters at the Post-office extremely doubtful ; and that in a
matter of so much delicacy and importance, it ought to be pecu-
liarly clear and well-defined ; and because if the law really is what
it was contended in the debate to be, I think it ought to undergo
immediate amendment.

"2. Because, despairing at present of the entire abolition of the
practice, I highly approve of the principle of the Bill which was
meant to restrain it to cases in which it might possibly do some
good, and to limit its operation within reasonable bounds.

" 3. Because, if the clauses of the Bill were liable to the objee.
tions urged in the dewy, these clauses might have been corrected,
and the objections cbviated in the Committee.
"4. Because two most desirable objects wculd have been obtained
by this Bill—
" Ist—The suppression of the immoral and fraudulent picot cos
naturally arising out of the power itself; and
" 2dly—The limiting the exercise of the power claimed to mat.
ters of internal government, and the preventinelf that tultr-
ference with the concerns of foreigners, retying on English hospi-
tality, which I deem derogatory to the character of the country,
and which, as late events have proved, is likely to be prompted
false information, and may, I apprehend, endanger the general
peace. " DENMAN.
" RADNOR.
" CA MPBELL
" KINNAIRD and ROSSIE."

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.
HOUSE OF LORDS, Joie 4.
THE BISHOP OF CASHEL'S CHARGE.
The Bishop of CASH EL wished to say a few words
respecting the observations made last night in their Lordships'
House by a Noble Marquis (the Marquis of Normanby) upon
a charge which he had delivered at Lismore. He had thought
at the time that what he was represented to have said
could form no part of his charge, and now he was able to
give it a most positive contradiction. He had succeeded in
getting two copies (A' that charge in London instead of, as he
feared, being obliged to send to Ireland for them. One lie
had placed in the hands of the Noble Duke behind him and the
other he begged to lay on the table of the House. He could
say that the psssage which had been read was not only not a
perversion of his charge, but that it was a complete and entire
fabrication. As he intended to re-publish that charge, Ile
should wish to have a copy of what was said to be his charge,
in order to give it with the charge itself, and his own defence.
He hoped the Noble Marquis would have no objection to
state on what authority he had made the accusation ; for In
these stormy times, when no man's character was safe, it was
some protection to know from what quarter he was assailed.
The Marquis of NORMANBY regretted that he had rot
received, according to the Right Reverend Prelate's pro-
mise, an authent►cated copy of the charge. But he had
no objection to state that the report, from sc hich he last
night read an extract, was furnished to him by Dr. Fogarty,
the vicar-general and parish priest of Lismore—a man
of the highest character in the Roman Catholic priesthood.
He believed there was no person who knew Dr. Fogarty but
would speak in the highest terms of his moral character. He
thought that it was due to the Right Reverend Prelate
to give him the earliest opportunity of contradicting that
letter, and when he perused it he would see that Dr.
Fogarty had endeavoured to procure a copy of the charge
but was unable to do so. It had been generally reported that
the Right Reverend Prelate had given utterance to such
pernicious doctrines as exclusive intercourse, and he
considered it much to be regretted, and was a great
loss that the Right Reverend Prelate had not given
an extensive circulation to the charge which he had really de-
livered, and which he now laid on the table of the House. He
felt it unnecessary to say more. He was sure their Lordships
would acquit him of any intention to affix any unjust stigma
upon the character of the Righ. Rev. Prelate. He would ask
him, however, was the charge which he delivered an extem-
pore charge ?
The Bishop of CASH EL—lt was not an extempore charge;
it was a written charge, and the copy on their Lordships' table
was printed from that nritten charge.
The Marquis c,f N 0 lIMAN BY—The reason why he asked
the question was, that he might set the matter for ever at rest.
When he had asked the Right Rev. Prelate last evening whe-
ther the charge he di livered was the same as the printed one
published afterwards, lie had said that it was so as nearly as
possible.
The Duke of Vs ELLINGTON observed that the Right
Rev. Prelate having done him the honour of putting the charge
into his hands a few hours ago, he considered it his duty to
affirm that it did not. contain one word on the point al-
luded to by the Noble Marquis opposite. It was a regular
ecclesiastical charge, sue h as a person in the situation of the Right
Reverend Prelate ought to have delivered. 'I here was not one
word of unkindness, nor one word calculated to wound the
feelings of any man, of any belief whatever. No one could
read it without satisfaction, nor without entertaining respect
for the person who composed it. For himself, he could only say
that he had derived great and sincere pleasure from its perusal.
Lord CAMPBELL, notwithstanding the denial of the Rev.
Prelate, the qualification of the Noble Marquis, and the testi-
mony of the Noble Duke, must say, that on casting his eye over
the document in dispute, he could not wonder at the mistake.
'I he Right Rev. Prelate had adopted the language of another
eminent divine, who had styled Popery as the maser-piece
of Satan. With such a strong and unequivocal expression he did
not wonder that the charge had met with the interpretation
so naturally put upon it, yet so loudly complained of.
The Bishop of CASHEL—I said that some one had so said.
—( Hear, hear. ) Whatever I said was against Tractariaiiism
of the present day.

SMALL DEBTS' BILL.
The Earl of /1 ARDWICKE presented a petition in favour
of the Bill for the better security of small debts.
M A YN 0 T H.
Earl RODEN presented petitions from various parts of Wales
against the grant to Maynooth.
Lord CH A RLEVILLE presented petitions from Helstone,
in Cornwall, against the grant.
Lord DENMAN presented a petition to the same effect.
Lord BROUGHAM presented a similar petition.
ADJOURNED DEBATE.
The Earl of CLANCARTY, in resuming the adjourned
debate, raid he thought it was a sufficient apology for his hay-
ing moved the adjournment, that only two in-
dividuals were suffered on the preceding evening to
address the House in support of the amendment
moved by his Noble Friend ; but, independently of this fact, not
one single Irish Member had yet had an opportunity of ad-
dressing their Lordships. He thought the admissions
made by the Noble Lord who closed the debate last
night, on the subject of the Roman Catholic Church,
were strictly in favour of the amendment, and the
Noble Lord was acting rather incensistintly in opposing it.
It would be a consideration for her Majesty's Ministers how far
they intended to carry out the principle of the proposed
Hear.) The Noble Earl had asked if there were
151 benefices without a single Protestant in them. It appeared
there were 10 with no Protestants in them, and 42 with 10 or
less. In 24 there was no provision for them at all. He spoke
of the saving truths of the Roman Catholic Church, and he
spoke of its approximation to the Presbyterian Church.
He (Lord Clancarty) could not agree with the Noble Earl in
the explanation he had given of the proposed Bill. He thought
the Scottish Church was a pure church, and were he in Scot
land, he would willinglingly go and worship with the pro-
fessors of the Presbyterian faith ; but if, on the contrary,
he were in a Roman Catholic country, he should feel that he
could not conscientiously bow the knee before an image,
or address himself in prayer to the Virgin.—( Hear. )
With the Noble Earl who followed him on yesterday's debate,
he would most cordially agree with his sound and Protestant
feeling. In every sentiment that had fallen from him, with
the exception of his observations on the Act of 1829, he
would cheerfully coincide. He saw nothing in the emancipa-
tion of the Roman Catholics that could argue danger to the
Protestant Church. It had not been argued that the Roman
Catholics in Parliament supported any measure in opposition to
the interest of the Established Church. They took oaths to
bind them in respect to the interest of the Church, and they
observed them with the strictest regard. He could sa \ that
many of his tried and most consistent friends in Ireland were
Roman Catholics, and he always found them most desirous of
acting for the general good of the country. He mixed with
them at meetings of the boards of guardians and elsewhere, and
he invariably found them anxious to do everything in their
power to forward the interests of Ireland. He would say a
few words in reference to what fell from the Noble Marquis on
the other side of the House, who spoke last night. That.
Noble Marquis had brought a charge against a Right Hon.
Prelate; but it was a great relief to him (Lord Clancarty) that
the reply of that Right Rev. Prelate had been most satisfac-
tory. the Noble Marquis had withdrawn his charge, but he
(Lord Clancarty) would have been better satisfied if he
had done it in a more unreserved manner, and if he had given
the Right Rev. Prelate notice of the charge he intended to
bring forward. There was a great distinction to be drawn be-
tween the course which the Noble Duke had adopted towards
the Right Rev. Prelate, and the course taken by the Noble
, and Learned Lord opposite, in reading the garbled extracts
which he had done. Though he could not look upon the Go-
vernment of the Noble Marquis with so much respect as he de-
sired to show, yet he felt deeply obliged to him for his admi-
rable Church appointments, as was evident in the appointment
of 1)r. Ponsonby. He would now allude to what had
fallen from the Most Rev. Prelate the Archbishop of
Dublin. He said that there appeared to be no distinction
between favour and endowment, and persecution and intole-
rance. By the solemn promise which he had given he had
engaged to drive away all error, and sooner than break his
faith with this promise, he would resign his sacred profession
and retire to a humble sphere. The real question was, whe-
ther the Roman Catholic was to be encouraged and made a
friend of, or whether he was to be regarded as an enemy ?
There could be no denial of the claims of the Roman Catholic
people of Ireland to the consideration of her Majesty's Go-
vernment. But he did not think that the Government was
under any obligation to uphold what the Noble Lord opposite
(Lord Beaumont) called the" immutability" of Roman Catholic
doctrine. His Noble Friend, he thought, had made a sufficier.t
case to justify an inquiry, or examination into the tenets taught at
Maynooth, and what had fallen from a Noble Earl (Lord
Hardwicke) with reference to Dr. Eaton only showed the necessity
for the amendment of his Noble Friend receiving the utmost
consideration of the House. He certainly could not possibly
agree to this measure, because it was in direct opposition to the
oath he had made on first taking his seat amongst their Lord-
ships. He had sworn to sanction no measure which should
give power to any foreign Prince, and vet he was now called
upon to sanction an institution under the authority of the head
of the Roman Catholic Church. There was a very strong
feeling abroad on this question, for it was supposed out of doors
that the Members of that House were bound by something
more than their oaths. He, for one, would say he always held
that the Members of the Legislature were bound by cer-
tain principles of legislation by which they were bound
not to recognise the papal authority in any way in this realm.
He had no doubt that their Lordships attached paramount im-
portance to their oath of allegiance, and it was because he
knew that fact he had deemed it his duty to call their attention
to this particular point. He would not trespass much further
on their Lordships' attention, but he did hope that before their
Lordships should make any hasty legislation on this important
subject, they would consider well the points to which be had
called the attention of their Lordships. Ile would never con-
sent to establish such a college for the education of tornan
Catholics, as it would be interfering with her Majesty's right
of supremacy over the ecclesiasticalbe
hsiegmhilynaurniecsanwstiittlantniantahle
kingdom, and, in that respect, would
fact that
supportth a t th the religionf successive
mG raeyanta sorb
Governments. It was said that Mr. Pitt had founded May-
nooth, and that Mr. Percival had subsequently supported it.
For his own part he could not justify an act that was in itself un-
justifiable, and in his opinion no act could be justified otherwise
than on its own intrinsic merits. It was an Act for the endow-
ment of a college for the education of Roman Catholics, and
at the time it was considered objectionable that Roman Ca-
tholics should be obliged to resort to the Continent for their
education, when they might, by an Act of Parliament, obtain
that advantage nearer home, and in that respect it was con-
sidered a fair enactment ; and in 1795, and the three follow-
ing years, money was awarded for the purpose of establishing
scollege, but it was kept under the power and control of
the State. The Noble Earl had referred to the Charitable
a,offolarstitse(s.osiioifnc,rraendd
uhpeonhai‘dia7
nmoeo t ha foundationcorliorafot corporate
hßiesqoubejsetctAioent
character for enjoying the endowments bestowed upon it, and
on that principle was recognised the Roman Catholic church
in Ireland, as subject only to the Pope's domination and con-
trol ; but that Act did not so positively acknowledge the Ro-
man Catholic church as the
present proposed Act did. He
would put it to the Noble Lord Aliether the present measure
was not calculated to encourage the Roman Catholic religion?
He would contend that no expediency could justify this mea-
sure for religious education in Ireland. If it was intended
that such an Act should pass, let the oath of supremacy be at
once abolished, and then might the policy now proposed by her
Majesty's Ministers be proceeded with. He felt it his duty to
give his support to the motion of the Noble Earl in the inquiries
he had suggested should be made, and it would become Noble
Lords to consider well before they gave their assent to the
Bill before them. The principles of the Bill were to teach
doctrines that were damnable to their recipients, and highly
objectionable to the co antry, and which were opposed to the

religion that the Sovereign of the State was bound to protec
and support, and, further, the prerogative of royalty would be
annulled by the superintendatice and control, which of right
belonged to it, Ling surrendered into the hands of Catholic
priests, and finally to a foreign power. He did not believe that
the present Bill would establish or promote any improvement
in the socig.l condition of the country for which it was intended,
and the Olicy that instigated such a measure was, in his opi-
nien, indefensible and ineffably bad. He would not voter into
any discussion on the heavy charges that had been brought
against the College of Maynooth. Several Noble Lords, during
last night's debate, had borne testimony to the erroneous nature
of the doctrines disseminated there, and the Noble and Learned
Lord who had concluded the debate had confirmed the whole
ease by his lucid and incontrovertible arguments. During a
long series of years no effort had been made to obtain an in-
creased support for the institution at itlaynooth. Nothing
had been said during that interval, and the inference to be
(hewn from the silence would be that it was not necessary to
squander so large a sum-of the public money in propagating
Catholicism, as was contemplated by the present proposed
measure. Commissioners had been appointed to investigate
generally into the condition of education in Ireland, and they
II id reported very vo`uminously as to the present state of the
educational regimen at Maynooth. Evidence had been brought
before the House, but it would consume a vast deal of time to
eopsider singly the papers in which that evidence was eon-
taioed. It might, perhaps, be an interesting inquiry to make,
but in the absence of that evidence he would briefly refer to the
statements of a late celebrated Lord Chancellor, who, in his
eifieiel capacity as one of the visitors of Maynooth, had said
'hat the young men there were brought up in a condition more
-en tie and more degrading than at any college of the Jesuits ;
said that it was impossible n it to notice the countenances of
these young men, whose eyi s were continually cast down to the
,round, and whose whole demeanor showed they were discip-
lined to eubmit to the power of despo's. Such was the test isnony
of a most respectable witness as to t he condition of things at 318. t..
I o r,h, hut perhaps the principal question to be r otisidered was,
is, het her the proposed measure would be generally beneficial to
the interests of Ireland. All that had been heard and pub.
shed of the conspiracies, murders, and outreges of every de-
scription in Ireland had been the result of misgovernment.
The true character of the Irish people was excellent. These
were none who were naturally more attached to the sovereign
authority or more grateful for benefits receives!. And, on the
contrary, there were no people who possessed so keen a sense of
iiijust ice and oppression, and, shove all, there existed no people
ho had a more profound contempt for inconsistency, whether
it was of a political tendency or of a religious nature. Ireland
had been for too long a pert. d subjected to be governed by the
miserable resort of expedieney—(Hear, hear)—and a wretched
expedient was now contemplated in the proposed endowment, by
iiiitkitig a weak concession to the uriests, in order to gain their
support in conciliating Ireland. The only true system, which
was the Scriptural education scheme, had been thrown aside
es ineffectual and was lost, and the domination of the priests,
which had been tacitly allowed by the late Government, was
openly encouraged by the present Administration.—( Hear.)
'1 he Bequests Bill had not produced a contrary spirit in the
country. They were still true to their Spiritual Lord, the
Pope, to whom they had sworn to be faithful ; and nothing
would. induce them to sell their support of that principle on
behalf of any other authority. This feeling was borne out by
the whole history of Ireland, arid it was a feeling which the
Government could not but respect. No doubt there was a
great difference in the state of Ireland now, compared with
e tat it was before Sir Robert Peel took office, and for what
he had done he considered him entitled to the confidence of
the country. If, however, he forced the establishment of this
institutien of Maynooth on the country, it would scatter that
not fitieriee to the winds. Before that Right Hon. Baronet
took effiee, Ireland was agitated in a serious manner, but on
his accession to office, a state of comparative tranquillity was
induced, arising, for the time, from the high constitutional feel-
ings which were aroused in the country by that event. But
th.t state of tranquillity did not last long. Under the guidance
el 31:e able repeal agitator of that country, the people were
brought into a state of unexampled excitement for the repeal
of the union. While this was going forward, the Government
Witt lon king on with mute astonishment, witnessing the whole
peiedatien of Ireland brought together to monster meetings, in
tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands. The excitement
showed the people of that country ready to follow one man
elite-eves he chose to lead them, and then only restrained
fit in ails of bloodshed, and actual rebellion, by that
man, who exercised over them such unbounded control.
At length the country was filled with troops, and the meeting
at Cloni arf was put down; then it was to be said to the repeal
It ealers was due the credit that no collision between the sol-
diers and the people did take place. In his (Lord Clancarty's)
opinion if at first a vigorous effort hail been made by the Go-
vern's:eta to put down these proceedings it would have been
successful, but ithe attempt was made too late. The people
hail become organised, they had learned to despise the Govern-
ment, and had active and intelligent leaders to guide them.
Then followed the prosecution of the leaders, and that course
was a failure—it did not serve the purpose of a vindication of
the law of England.—( Hear.) Instead of this, it weakened
respect for the law, and caused the people of that country to
fete all respect for the judges of Ireland,
The Duke of WELLINGTON-31y Lords, in debating this
subject, I beg leave to submit that the question is a Bill for the
establishment of a college at Maynooth. I do not know that
the monster meetings, or the conduct of the Government in re •
gard to those meetings, bears any relation to the question. I
submit that the Noble Lord should attend to the question, and
not refer to the Government respecting that which might be a
proper subject of discussion at another time; but is not at pre-
sent. The suhject now is Maynooth._( Hear.)
Lord CLANCA RTY said he did not consider he was leaving
the question by referring to the monster meetings, and could
not bow to the opinion of the Noble Duke. He referred to
the monster meetings, to show that if no respect had been
shown to the law of England, great submission at least
had been shown to another authority—that that
deference which was not tendered to the Crown, was
not withheld from the leaders of the Roman Catholic popula-
tion. Trough the authority of the Government was so weak
in Ireland, the power of the Pope was well known. Their
Lordships would recollect that what he referred to was the
submission of the people of Ireland to the Pope's rescript, at a
time when the law failed to work out a similar submission.
After the receipt of that document, a consultation of the
bishoas of Ireland was held in Dublin, and the result was an
agreement to the principle of this endowment to Maynooth. A
strong feeling had been expressed by the Protestants of Ire-
land that the present Government was unable to govern that
country, and he had stated these matters in order that their
Lordships might understand the true bearings of the question.
Two years ago, when a measure was proposed to educate the
poor factory hildren in the principles of the Church
of England, a feeling was raised against it, and it was aban-
doned ; but now, while the voice of Protestant England anti
Protestant Scotland was unanimously raised against this en-
dowment, it was altogether disregarded.—( Hear, hear.) He
admitted that healing measures—measures of improvement--
were necessary for Ireland, but they should be such as would
tend to social improvement. But of all the measures origi-
nated within the walls of the English Parliament, that now
befoie their Lordships to endow the College of Maynooth, and
to recognise the Papal authority, was the last that should have
been expected from an English Parliament, a Protestant Go-
vernment, and a British Sovereign.—( Hear, hear. )
The Duke of CLEVELAND said he was anxious to occupy
a shert time in the discussion, not so much to occupy their
time in the consideration of the measure before them, as to
vindicate his own consistency, inasmuch as he differed on this
question with many of those with whom he usually acted. In
suppating this Bill, which he conceived it was his duty to do,
he was only pursuing that policy he had taken as his guide
ever since his entrance into public life. The debate had
hitherto been taken on religious grounds. Now he under-
stood from the Noble Duke who introduced the measure, that
it was more of a political than a religious subject. In that
view he (the Duke of Cleveland) wished to consider it. He
supported the measure for the relief of the Roman Catholics in
18:!3, when it was introduced, and supported it up to its
being finally carried in 18a9. He had been a regular sup-
porter of that principle front the time he entered the House of
Commons in 1812, until it was brought to a happy termination
under the auspices of the Noble Duke (the Duke of Welling.
ton) and Mr. Secretary Peel. For 17 years he acted with
the Whig party, and supported every measure brought forward
by them, with the exception of that of Parliamentary Reform.,
;shich he had always opposed. Since then, be
had supported the Conservative party. His motto was
now, as it had always been, " measures not men. "
He could not sec that any new principle was involved in this
additional grant. It was true that the arguments which had
been adduced laid great stress on this being an annual grant.
But if they were to take the circumstances under which the grant
was made, the number of years which it had been allowed, be
would ask them whether they could suppose that it wag ever
likely to be withdrawn ? Could they suppose that. t 4.;csy could
ever retrace their steps ? Whatever might be t they
moiwgh,t advance,
,asanut bteruitmtihmesy could
sibil evnererdeitdrongorat t!e;
think,to therefore,retrograde
nthat there was anything wrong in giving his consent to this
grant, or any real distinction between a grant which was sure
to be made annually and one which rendered that grant perms-
cent. With respect to ulterior measures he would not look at
:hem at the present moment. There were persons who took
a much more comprehensive view of the question than he did,
and who conceived that this was only a prelude to other mea-
sures. Ile knew not that such would be the case, but he felt
that he could only look at the measure before their Lordships
as a measure isolated—as one without any consequence. It
was in that way that he must consider it. He could not take
it in connexion with any measure in the back ground. If it
were so connected, and if were so put forward as a feeler to ascer-
tain the state of public opinion, and with a view to introduce
measures of an ulterior consequence, though of a similar kind,
it was a most complete failure. if they at all doubted that,
let them look to the petitions which daily crowded their table.
'rl:ose petitions were countless, and emanated not from any dis-
tant or obscure corner of the country, but they had poured in by
thousands from every district, and from every town, from Beachy
Head to John o' Groats. They might disregard public opinion
now, as in some instances it had been disregarded, but they
might carry the principle too far, they might push it to an
extent which was not quite safe, and, in this instance, it had
been expressed with too much loudness and fervour not to be
heard. In the advocacy of this measure, however, he had
heard some sentiments expressed which he knew not how to
comprehend. When he first heard those opinions stated he
knew not rightly how to believe his senses. They had been
expressed by a Noble Lord a member of the Government, and
who held a position in her Majesty's household. He knew
not whether that Noble Lord (the Earl of Hardwicke) had held
any conference with the chief officers of the Government, but
it did seem strange that that Noble Lotel had stated that
tshheoulrdesoauotteescomoef fromthe thei,ro consolidatedtestant
fwoh,erhrrehehfisunidn,
if the Roman Catholic Church was to be endowed the
su
fieasffilehhdltecoearuul
ttd(,ayatsnhy
Majesty'sesebvt
heuo never live
looked
eNoki
household,
contemplation,
;est
sepnehl
seaorCtisi
dtl
omes. at
butnd )
was knew not that
beltitttlowfmroemnt
Ir
uwhesol;:sh,omaet
iennabtddhelp.
ireher
project
tr
wei
Conservative,
extraordinary dbi neaeriywathphopa
appointed
naotsne
dae
if
fnoitt heto
a Lord of the Bedchamber by the Government, and who might
be supposed to know what the intentions of the Government
ere, should have held such opinions. There might have been
a change in the views of the Cabinet, and of the policy which
they intended to pursue, but when he recollected the speeches
of the Noble Lord, formerly the Secretary for Ireland, and who
eas now Secretary for the Colonies (Lord Stanley), as
is ell as these of Sir Robert Pet I and others, to which lie had
listened with so much delight in the House of Commons, he
was led to believe that they would speak in the same way in
which they intended to vote. Had the Noble Lord forgotten
that it was for this very reason that Sir Robert Peel had Te-
lsigt ed in 1835, and that for a similar reason Lord Stanley had
left Lord Grey's Government? He had thought it his duty
thus to express his sentiments, and he had done so with con-
side:able anxiety, anti repeated he saw nothing in this Bill to
winch he could not completely assent. He should therefore vote
fur it, though he was aware that in so doing he should
be opposing the opinions of a great nortien of the
.
peeple of this country. Another course remained for him.
He need not vote at all, but tbat was a course which he had
never pursued in any debate, and it was one of the shabbiest
expedients that could possibly be
a(
opl.
c!s:, than publishing to the world that
man
was not compe This was a
tent to form an opinion at all upon thea ted. It was nothing
subject.
measure
s which in some degree intimated the
Tpo
licy which they
intended to pursue
towards Ireland. They had many
grievances to
be remedied, and these remedies could only be ob-
" t'lfled through the means of conciliation or by the power of
iii sword. Whatever might Le attempted, the sword of the
state t ultimately prevail in any contest which might arise,
however dreadful that contest might be. He was, therefore:,
glad that a policy of conciliation was affected towards Ireland ;

and ha
..,ght that that was the beet way of bringing the
people ot country back to a sense of their duty as members
of an empire of whieh they formiel a part. Nothing for this
could ted earpt by coimiliation, and he should, there-
fore, Wit the Bill as part of a great experiment for giving
contentment to the people of Ireland, without any danger to the
established tratitutio-ns of the country.
The Earl of HA RDWICKE said that he wished to explain
hit:well:ion a point Willa Noble Friend who hail just sat down,
winch seemed to give him much anxiety. The supposition
which the Noble Duke entertained that he wished to appro-
priate the revenues of the Irish Church to the support of the
Roman Catholic clergy was erroneous. What he had said was,
that if the Roman Catholic Church was to be endowed he did
not know where the endowment was to come from, as it could
not come out of the Consolidated Fund. He had further as-
serted,. that if there was, as was asserted, a church without a
congregation, without a soul to go into it, nor any probetility
of there being any, that the endowment of that church might,
with safety and wisdom, be taken from the Protestant Church,
and applied to the support of the ministers of the Roman Ca-
tholic faith. He had yet another point to touch upon, and in
that case he should give a very short answer to a very long re-
mark. For his opinions he was solely and entirely responsible.
That was the answer to his Noble Friend.
Earl SPENCER said he wished to say a few words on this
question, not because he could so far flatter himself that any
thing which fell from him was at all likely to influence their
Lordships, or that he could adduce anything new upon the
subject on this the third night of the debate, which be trusted
would be the last. —(Hear, hear.) He thought that her Ma-
jesty's Government was entitled to high credit for the line they
had taken, and he thought that those who had takes any part
in the promotion of this measure, as was the case with the
friends with whom he had acted all the days of his life, should
share in the obloquy and clamour which had been raised
throughout the country. With respect to the speech of the
Noble Duke, in which he made an attack on the Noble Earl op-
posite, he might remind the House that the very same imputa-
tions had been thrown out on the passing of the Catholic Eman-
cipation Bill ; and with regard to this being an isolated
measure he thought that it was one of the very best features of
the measure that it was not an isolated Bill, but was the pre-
cursor of other measures which would be of essential service
to the country. On principle he was sincerely attached to a
Church establishment. He thought that it was one of the
highest duties of the State to provide for the temporal and
spiritual interests of the people, but it was a still higher duty to
provide for the spiritual interests of those under their care,
and for this reason he should always support the Church
establishment of the country. The Right Rev. Prelates who
spoke against the Bill gave no reason for their opposition to it,
but shoso Prelates who came from Ireland did give a reason.
They stated that the Church of Rome was an antagonist
Church, and yet the laity of our own Church and the clergy
also, but certainly a great majority of the clergy, believed
that there was some secret value in their ordi-
nation, some peculiar value in the authority which they
derived from their apostolic succession, and yet this virtue was
derived through the Roman Catholic clergy, in some of the
worst and most corrupted ages of that church. There was, it
was true, some difference of opinion between the two churches.
But was the Roman Catholic church to be called an antago-
nist church ? lie was personally opposed to that church, be-
cause he believed that nothing ought to be held as true which
could not be proved by, or inferred from, the Holy Scriptures,
anti the Roman Catholic church derived part of her faith from
other souroes. But they believed in the same Saviour—they
inculcated the same morality, and were equally energetic and
suocessfel with any Protestant in giving religious instruction
to the whole of the people. He did not see anything, then, to
prevent him from giving his assent to this Bill; and the more
so, as there was iw the Catholic faith nothing that was con-
trary to religion. And if the objectors to the measure would
only look around they would see that, as the Noble Earl had
stated. there was no :reentry in Europe in which the Roman
Catholic subjects, whether they lived under Protestant or
Roman Catholic sovereigns, were not loyal and orderly in their
deportment. But it had been said that the doctrines of the
Roman Catholic church were the same they were in ,the days
of error anti persecution.—( Hear.) But was that
the ease? No one could say that it was.—(Hear.)
He would oak if Noble Lords who marls use of the statement
that the °mitotic religion had chanced, believed it ? He must
use *striae, words in what he stated—the Boman Catholic reli-
gion had *over changed, because those who were members of
that tali rasa interpreted some pnrtious Cf Scripture as placing
it under the direct influence of the Holy Spire. Yet if it had
changed b was but human. Let them look at 'the course of
the lioisin Catholic religion. In ancient times crimes of the
most violent nature were perpetrated by those professing that
faith, while, for upwards of a century, such occurrences had
not taken place. • There was another objection which would be
of mare importance if it were applicable to the case. Quota-
tions were male to the sff.'et that the dissatisfaction
and discontent existing among the Catholics of Ire-
land were caused by the Roman Catholic College
of Maynooth, and in order to prove these quotations, a
Noble Deke went through a catabigue of the assizes to show
the connexion between the doctrines taught to youth and the
crimes; set forth in it. How had England treated the pepttla
tioa of Ireland ? They began by exterminating them—they
degraded them by penal laws, an i therefore made them bad
subjects. Ireland could not endure the panel code which was
in foiee —they resisted it, and it was modided. They asked
the people of Ireland to assist them in carrying their union with
that country ; it was earrted by their assistance. But they
broke the promise which they made to them, and, after a esn-
teriticn of nirie-and-twenty years. that promise was performed,
and the Catholic Earancipstion Bill was ceeicel—not on the
ground on which they all sta'ed they were actuated in
supporting it (Hear)— hot on the greunis of justice
truth ( Hear) (because they had no right to
deprive people eho differed with them in religion el' certain
rights) but because they could not resist it any longer.—( Hear,
hear.) He hoped that the meastue tefore their Lordships
would not be an isolated one, and if they pursued the policy
they had commenced they would not only confirm their union
`with Ireland, bet render that country, by a steady system of
impartiality and concession, the strongest instead of the weelest
part of the empire.—( Hear, hear. )- The Noble Earl who
moved the arnereimeet (Earl Rodeo) said that the Protestant
religion had not had fair play. He ( Earl Spencer) must et-
tirely agreed with the Noble Earl. Ile thought Protestantism
had not had fair pliy, for *hen they had irritate I the great body
of the Roman Catholics, and had broken the promises
which they had made to them, and when they were under
the influence of penal laws, they presented them with the Pro-
testant religion. Nothing could be more unwise or :nose likely
to engender a feeling of hoitility to the Protestant religion,
and to prevent it from having fair play. Presbyterian Scot-
land was in a constant state of anarchy and contusion until
they gave her the Presbyterian form of Church Government,
when prosperity-and peace fuliowed.—( Hear, hear.) Ireland
was in this state of confusion, anti the only way was to adopt a
similar policy towards Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) As a first step
in that direction, he should give the measure his brat support.
Several Noble Lords ruse, but after some conversation they
gave way to

The Bishop of NORWICII,who said he was anxiens to state to
their Lordship why he intended to give his vote sincerely to the
measure before the House. Ile was going to make an apology
for rising to address their Lordships, but he did not think it
was necessary. No apology was necessary from a man who
gave his: opinions honestly. But he thought that, from the
situation in which he was placed, the ought to give some
explanation why he chose to give his vote in favour of the
measure. He did so because they could be little aware of she
obloquy which every individual, more especially those of his
profeesion, was exposed who dared to come forward in a case
of toleration and of mercy towards those who differed from
them. lie heard from a Noble Lord some harsh expressions
towards those ecclesiastics who were about to vote in favour of
the measure. He insinuated that they were like faithless
shepherds abandoning their flocks. That was like other lan-
guage which he had heard. Ho was shown a pamphlet last
week, which was written, ho was sorry to say, by a clergyman
of the Church of England, and addressed to those Bishops who
were prepared to vote in favour of the grant to Maynooth, and
in which they were accused of falsehood. Stronger
language was used, which he would not insult
their Lordships by repeating. It accused them of
being heretics, and infidels, and as anti-Christian, and
that they were apostates from their holy religion. A Right
Hoe. Baroaet in another place wag called by another Rev.
Orator—he trusted, for the honour of the Church of England,
that he was a Dissenter—he was denounced before a large
amitotic* that be was an anti-Christ. He (the Bishop of
Norwich) was Protestant in his feelings altogether—nay, more,
ho had maxi to believe that he was opposed to the opinions,
part and parcel, of the Romish creed, which opinions were
upheld and supported by many who had signed anti-May-
nooth petitions. He declared that he was averse to Popery in
whatever form or shape it appeared—he was especially averse
to that Popery which entered into Protestant denominations.
he was everse to it in every shape or way. Every denomina-
tion was anxious to cull for itself a maximum of toleration, and
to give others a minimum. He would say a few words with
respect to the petitions presented to the House. That they
had been numerous beyond all precedent he would not deny,
but that they represenied the feelings of the people of Eng-
land, he wasinclined from close investigation rather to deny.
He had taken some pains to analyse those petitions, and he
was prepared to say that they were not the result of a spon-
taneous feeling, but were couched in the same language, and
in the same words, and were issued from an office in London,
• and disseminated in various parts of the country, for the
purpose of being signed, and for the purpose of collecting
subscriptions. He knew a town with a population of 9,000
persons, from which ten petitions had emanated. They were
scattered over the town, and in every ward, and the number
of signatures was only 220. With respect to the memberi of
his own profession, he believed that a very large proportion
were in favour of the measure. Of eleven pamphlets which
he had seen on the subject, three were written by clergymen
against it, and three by laymen in favour of it. He thought
ff their Lordships had taken the same pains to analyse the
petitions as he had, they would have corroborated the testimony
he had given. He was ready to allow that the Dissenters had
sent petitions, but they were opposed:to the grant on the
ground that they were opposed to all endowments. Ile would
read a circular addressed to the Roman Catholics of Ireland,
which was adopted at a meeting of Dissenters held in London
in the course of last month. The Right Rev. Prelate then
read portions of the circular which sympathised with the griev-
ances. of the Catholics of Ireland, and specified them as most
tiniest and oppressive, and attributed the grievances inflicted
on them to the Anglican Church in Ireland, and that they,would
use their utmost exertions to remove the grievances under which
they laboured.
The Earl of WINCIHLSEA asked from what body of Dis-
senters the address emanated.
The Bishop of NORWICH said it emanated from a confe-
rence;i of Protestant Di:senters, held in Crosby-hall,. London.
petitiens to which he had alluded did not enter into a com-
bat_o° with large principles, but details. But it was their duty
Danish erroneous doctrines, and to combat error wherever
they found it ;it was their duty—it it was the duty of every man,
no matter what station he
error which ceunteractoV,l.
filled, to do his hest to combat any
the religion of fhe Gospel—every
man, more or less,
believed, therefore, that it not to countenance error. He
in Christendom_tbatit contained
Church of England was the best
other church, and at tih contained better elements than any
church, free as it was, the same time ho must say that the
Ifrar, bear.) Yet h was altogether destitute of error.—
e could sae in its —a fearful oscillation—from Calvinism elements an oscillation
gates of Popery on the other. ii on the one side to the
e.-rors in all human off sirs, and iT(wa .?, hear.) There were
to remove them by the hest moons ins theirtl-
ei duty to contribute
duct of England tewarde Roman Catholic.r power.
The
eon-
ralleled in the history of any denominatin it vend was unpa-
treated with asperity, and their doctrines hanilb—etehney had been
°1
intolerance and unchristian conduct. And how harPtihey "edt.iby
Cf4iglesi ? They had altogether failed in acromplothit 51"-
they intended. The Roman Catholic population of Ireland
Ir(wea'nadt
was 6,500,003. There were 1,500,000 of Protestant 4
which not more than one-half ,ere members of the Established
Church. Church. Ten years ago, before the Ecclesiastical Commis •
sioners sulelivided the diocese of Norwich into (Efferent
sees, one Bishop, for 3,090/. to 4,0001. a year, had
a greater number of persons under his spiritual care
than the whole eighteen Protestant Bishops of Ireland.
There might be consolidated unions in Ireland, but that argu-
ment equally well applied to his own diocese; and when they
spoke of entoes and consolidations, he thought that the less
they spid upon the subject the better. iut
again
they were
ansivinteki that the Roman Catholics of Ireland were worse than
any Roman Catholics on the face of the earth—more un-
manageable, more intractable. They might be so. Put, he
woo', ask; why Isere they so? He would (no matter what
his own opinions were), for the sake of argument, admit that
they were so; he would allow, that'they were more unmanage-
Ole, more intractable; but was it not they—they, tW Pro-

tostante, that made them so T He would not follow the speech '
of the Noble Earl who had just sat down, and point out how
the Roman Catholics of Ireland had been treated by the Pro-
testants of England. They had heard it said th v the Roman
Catholic religion was patronised and upheld is Canada be-
cause it was a conquered country. But Ire'and was also
conquered by Henry the Second, and it ha I been treated
as a conquered province from that time to this. Could they,
then, be surprised, after knowing how they had been treated,
that they should look at our religion, beautiful at d mild as it is,
through the glass of party, with suspicion and distrust. An-
other argument had been touched on by the Noble Lord who
had just sat down, namely, their unchangeableness. Most
true, their principles were unchangeable. They were un-
changed. But in practice they were most ductile, and they
would change yet more and more, as fellow-subjects and
fellow-Christians. Ho would appeal to what he had himself
seen in the Grand Duchy of Baden. There were numbers col-
lected of Church of England members in the episcopal town of
the duchy, and what did the Roman Catholic Bishop do ? Did
he crush the Lutherans and persecute the Church of England
men ? No. He sent for one of the Church rectors of the
town, and said " There are a number of Lutherans who have

no place in which to perform their religious rites. There are a
number of Church of England members who have no church to
meet in, I command you, therefore—(their Lordships would
observe that it was not a request, but a command)—that the
rector should open his church, and that in the morning the
Roman Catholic form of worship should be performed a little
earlier. The Lutherans then to have it for their own peculiar
worship, and the church again to be open twice a day, morning
and evening, for the members of the Church of England." lie
did not say that the same could be done in this country, but at
the same time he thought they might cultivate a closer friend-
ship with the Roman Catholics, by approximating to a similar
liberality. It had been said, and said most truly, that the
Roman Catholic priesthood educated at Maynooth were so ig-
norant that they were not fit to be associated with clergymen
of other persuasions. They were now about to try a great ex-
periment for their benefit, and he would ask should they allow
things to remain in their present stagnant position? Was it
nothing that they could by such measures as this advance the
progress of education and produce a better understanding be-
tween the two countries? He should only trespass on the
attention of the House on one other point. Let
them suppose that in Ireland things were re-
versed, that affairs were altered, and that instead of
six and a half millions of Roman Catholics, and net quite a
million of the supporters of the Church of England, and other
Protestants—not in all a million and a half? Supposing that
they had a Roman Catholic Government, and that that Go-
vernment had in a moment of kindness and benevolence, prof-
fered such a measure, and that the six and a half million of
Roman Catholics had opposed it. What should they, the Pro-
testants, have said then ? Why they would have denounced
them most properly as bigoted and intolerant. He (the
Bishop of Norwich) would have headed the cry, and denouncd
the Roman Catholics in the strongest language. Why then
should Protestants denounce a Bill, which if they bad been in
the place of the Roman Catholics they would have hailed as a
measure of the noblest Christianity. lie would trespass on
their Lordships' time no longer. It was his intention to vote
for this measure, because he considered it a religious question,
inasmuch as it was associated with justice and benevolence and
' love. He would vote for it, because he considered it a Christian
measure, inasmuch as it partook of, and put in practice that
nsble and permanent featureof the Saviour's Gospel—" do unto
othe►s as ye would that they should do unto you." He
should vote for it as an experiment in the right direction—
( theers)—as an experiment in favour of education,
and education under any form must elicit truth, and as truth
was elicited—and here he hoped Noble Lords of the Roman
Catholic faith would not think that he spoke harshly—he
spoke as a Protestant Bishop, and he said that as education
advanced truth was elicited; and he trusted that in she very
same proportion vs truth was elicited, the Roman Catholic
persuasion would be erased from the minds and hearts of the
Irish people. It would then be found that this measure, which
was now so much denounced, world be in an aftertime, and
by a future generation, esteemed one of the most wise, most
beneficial, and most useful passed in the I9lh century.—
(Cheers.) He rejoiced to find that her Majesty's Government
had brought this measure forward, and he only regretted that
when Noble Lords on the n?posite side of the House were pre-
pared to bring forth a measure similar in character, they did
not receive that supooet from the Members of the present Go-
vernnient which they so truly deserved. But be said he re-
joiced, and he del so sincerely, that past differences were for-
gotten, and that bosh parties came now forward in a bo:'y to
support the Government; and he would also give them his
cordial and hearty support in this measure of justrca to the Ro-
man Catholics of Ireland.—( Cheers. )
The Earl of AIORNINGTOS said that be was aware that
many Noble Lords of greater abili•y than himself were anxious to
aldress the House ; but he could not allow the measure to pass
without making one or two observations upon the subject.
The reasons which !sad actuated the illustrious William Pitt in
she foundation of this instiiutis,n, had been a desire to efuette
the Irish priesthood at home, in order that they might escape
the demoralising influence which a reshlenee in Frame would
occasion. He would, with the permission of their Lordship•,
quote some evidence taken before that !louse at the period when
that minister—the greatest England had ever known—was
about to found the College. The Noble Lord then quoted evi•
dente taken before the linear relative to the power of the Pope
to absolves subjects from the allegiance due to their sovereigns,
and the degree cf civil authority which it was as-
sumed he had the right a exercising in this country.
Ihe Act of 18:29 had given emancipation, and though it bad
not carried out so its legitimate extent the spirit of justice and
rest iuition, was that a reason why the Legislature should now
hesitate to complete it ? When it was said that oppor-
tunilies for education should not be accorded the Roman Ca-
tholics, it was tacitly declaring that members of that cemsnu-

nion were not tit to be entrusted with political po,ver ; for
more extended and liberal education was but the earnest and
forerunner, if not the essential principle of political influence.
If the system of teaching adopted at Maynoeth be bad, by
giving the students the means of getting superior, they would
be the first to seek sounder education for themselvec.—
( Hear, hear.) The Catholic religion, when impressed
on ignorant minds, was pernicious, but when instilled on
educated and erudite minds it was sublime in principle
and beneficial in its effects, and that man of the Anglican
Church who could not entertain respect for tenets of the
Galiie—not the ultra-mentaine or jesuitical—Church, was not
liberal or wiee. A mistake had been made by his Noble rela-
tive, and other Lords who had adopted the same course of
argument, in asserting that the Roman Catholic religion was
imbued with principles dangerous to the Constitution, and sub-
versive of civil liberty. Such might have been originally the
tendency of thou: tenets; but was it fair, was it true, to assert
that their consequences were still' so fatal ?—(hear, hear.)
That argument, however, had been plausibly suporteil by an
appeal to the nature of the concordats of the Pope. But what
influence or authority had in reality those concordats?
Lord CLANCAIITY—None at all.—( Hear, hear.)
The Eail of MORNINGTON—I thank the Noble Lord
for that reply ; it is the very ono I desired. It establishes my
position, and, as the lawyers say, puts the Noble Earl
out of the record.—(Loud laughter.) The Noble Lord,
in continuation, observed, that the Papal concordats
were founded on the principle of the peace of Europe,
as settled in the year 1649, and ratified susequently in 1815.
Uut the authority of the Pope was now virtually a nullity.
He could not translate Bishops, and his power over the minds
of the priests was less than the Archbishop of Canterbury pos-
sessed over the English Church, independent of the Crown.
The Pope had objected last year to the agitation for repeal
in Ireland. Ho had expressed his approval of the Bequests
Act, but his opinion was disregarded, and even his authority
received a check. In Germany, however conflicting the reli-
gious tenets of the people, Lutheran, Calvinist, and Catholic
lived together in harmony and brotherly love; and that,
not because they compromised their principles, but
that they tolerated other and dissenting creeds. Let sueh a
creditable course of unity and charity be adopted between the
Roman and Anglican Churches in this kingdom, and let the
spirit which pervaded and dictated the present measure be car-
ried to its fullest extent, and the consequence would be the
suppression of error, the promotion of religion, the happiness of
the people, and the glory of the United Kingdom.—( Hear.)
Lord COLCHESTER, feeling as he did the strongest ob-
jection to the 13ill, and intending therefore to give it his de-
cided opposition, wished to offer a few remarks, if perchance
they might induce that House to pause before it sanctioned a
measure so fraught with evil. The feeling that dictated the
petitions against the Bill, emanating not only from Dissenters,
though he remembered the time when the opinions of Dissen-
ters were respected by the Noble Lords opposite, but from the
United Assembly of the Church of Scotland, from the great
body, both lay and clerical, of the Church of England, from the
Universities of Oxford and Cambridge—
Lord BROUGHAM—No, no. No petitions have been pre-
sented from either of those Universities.
Lord COLCHESTER believed that petitions had been laid
on the table of the other House from influential individuals, if
not from the Corporations of both Universities.
Lord BROUGHAM again dissented.
Lord COLCHESTER would not argue that question, but
the feeling that dictated such universal protests against the
measure, would not die ; whether the Bill was carried or not,
the spirit of the country would still remain as decided and un-
compromisingly against it. As to the contract originally
urged as entered into at the Union, he could discern no such
understanding whatever. Mr. Grattan, indeed, in his address
upon that occasion, had alluded to a compact for educating the
Irish people, but nothing was mentioned either directly or re-
motely of a permanent endowment of the College of Maynooth.
The principle then reeognised was that an institution should be
endowed by the country and from the funds of Charitable
parties, but it comprehended', no such system as State
endowment, whether temporary or permanent.—(Hear.)
It appeared to him, therefore, that . the grant was only an an-
nual one, in aid of private contributions, and was not intended
to be permanent. If it were intended to be permanent, why
should the Government think it necessary to limit the grant
to twenty years ? He did not think that the College of May-
nonth had any especial or particular claims to the favour of
Parliament. Ho read extracts from the books taught in May-
nooth to show that the system of education, and the discipline
adopted in that college, were such as a Protestant Government
ought not to encourage, and much loss ought to endow. He
did not think that the effect of the proposed grant would be
any more than to give an increased salary to the yrofessors,
without at all improving the education of the pupils. With
every consideration which he had been able to give the subject;
he came to the conclusion that the measure would give as much
dissatisfaction in England as it would tend to encourage disaf-
fection in Ireland. He wished for the fullest toleration to the
Boman Catholic religion in Ireland. He was in favour of the
Bills for the institution of colleges in Ireland for the better
education of young men preparatory to their ecclesiastical in-
duction to the priesthood. He assured the House that it was
with no hostility to the Roman Catholic portion of his fellow-
subjects be felt bound to oppose this Bill.
Lord MON TEAGLE said that he rejoiced in the expression
of opinion which this discussion had elicited. He rejoiced that
all parties in both Houses had shown on the part of the United
Parliament that there was no occasion for the severance of the
empire, and that there was a sincere desire upon the part of
Whigs and Tories, English, Irish, and Scotch—(Cheers)—to
de every justiee to the people of Ireland.—( Cheers.) Not-
withstanding what they had beard on that subject he should '
state what he considered the peculiar importance of the sill.
He thought that it was the most important measure that had
been presented to Parliament, he would almost say, since
the union—but he should say unquestionably since the
relief Bill, In its practical effect on the popula-
tion of Ireland he thought that it ought to
be considered more important.. If their Lordships looked
back to the history of Ireland, disfigured as it was, confused
as it may be, by perpetual civil commotions, they would find
that all their contentions during latter years had reso!ved itself
into one great severance—not a severance of nations, but a se-
ats tie other.
side of the sup:.osed line,
site, rta,ce of religion, which unfortunately had placed the Pro-
an:t the Catholics
When his Noble Fiend had stated that the
the st;oornent because
Bhoe
fb:r.liaezZeesti;cautfiit9gw
Protestant Church was not
aeshttechn,mheet.
tolerant
church that exitited.
he couldz judge, the wisest and
ino:t. enlightened men were in tl-
thought that the governing Church of England. He
with a degree of a,tute n Ireland was intolerant,
d which the annals of the
world had never surpassed. They
the and they persecuted their preericuntetiTthe priests of
of King William in Ireland was the cor:igm'eneemehr:'t loerslature
lation of injustice, and a violation of faith. What did tahleeyi
with respect to education? In the height of 'iliedit;
baseness they made it criminal on the part of a Roman Catholic
to get education at home, and they made it criminal if they
went in quest of it abroad.—( Hear, hear.) Tney had been
active instruments in carrying out their own wicked legis-
lation. But he thought that those days were gone by, and he

rtiE SUN, LONDON, TriITRSDAV

wished that their Lordships would not imagine that he referred
to those matters for the purpose of making any exaggeration or
creating excitement.• He used those 'arguments in favour of
the present Bill, and to show that the curse. of the Legislature
was, that they created a separation between themselves and the
great majority of the people of Ireland—between themselves
and their religious instructors, and between themselves and
those who used the greatest influence amongst that people.
And that was almost the first time in which the Parliament of
the United Kingdom bad touched that sore place with a view
of healing it. They were now disposed to deal with that
religion as one which was preferred by the body of
the people. He took the liberty of moving for
a return which was now on the table of the House
and he wished to call the attention of their Lordships to it, in
order to show the falsity of the idea that they were now called
upon to do something new, that they were now unprotestant-'
ising England, and that they were unchristianising the king-
dom. Nothing could be more false ; and it was more flatter-
ing to those who made statements to that effect, to suppose that
they were ignorant of the facts, than that they were guilty of
flagrant misrepresentations. The return which he alluded to
showed the conduct of this country with respect to the religions
instruction of the colonies. The return showed that which
ought always to be the case—that in the discharge of their
colonial duties they considered that there were moral and re-
ligions responsibilities engaged, and how these duties had
been performed had been shown on the face of the returns.
They showed that 163,0001. were appropriated in one ear to
the Church of England; 29,0001. for the Church of Scot-
land. Wesleyans, and the various denominations of Protes-
tant Dissenters, were allowed 46,0001., and they appropriated to
that very Church of Rome, for the actual instruction of the
people of the Church of Rome, for paying their priests and
their Bishops, the sum of 26,0001.—That was not the intro-
duction of the present day, it was not the act of his Nohle
Friend, but it was the act of their predecessors in office. One
of the latest of these colonial establishments which had been
founded, and which he would cite to illustrate the principle
be had laid down. He alluded to the proceedings with respect
to New South Wales. In this colony the voluntary principle
was not laid down—a principle which he disliked as much as
any Noble Lord opposite, for ho did not like to see religion
treated as an immaterial thing left to shift for itself. He
thought it was the duty of te State to protect religion as much
as any material interest. But he must tell their Lordships
what principles had been acted on. There all religions wore
protected—all religions were endowed in proportion to their
number, and the result was in New South Wales most satis-
factory. He would ask any Member of the Right Reverend
bench whether there was any colonial establishment under the
dominion of the Crown in which the Church of Eng-
land had been more successful —in which its prin-
ciples had taken a deeper root—more prosperous in any
way whatever than it was there, under this system of endow-
ment? The Right Rev. Prelate must be aware of what his
had stated regarding this colony from the reports which
reached their Missionary Society. But his object in referring
to this was not to show that Parliament had endowed error,
for if they went upon that principle they must disavow all past
legislation lea these subjects. Oh. but some might say these
were but colonies, then would their Lordships say to the people
of Ireland, we will do more for the remotest, the most insignifi-
cant colony that exists, than we will do for you. We pay the
Roman Catholic priests in Australia—we pay them in Van
Dieman's Land, but to the priests in Ireland, for their educa-
tion we consider it would be sinful to contribute.—( Hear,
hear.) As to the argument of the increased sum proposed, it
was preposterous, for if the argument was worth a straw it
would go for the withdrawal of all grants.—(Hear, hear. )
The only alternative then was to make the grant avail-
able for the proposed intention.—( Hear, hear.)
Were they prepared to say to the people of Ireland—" we will
regard the religion of Roman Catholics wherever the flag of
England waves, we will consider the claims of Catholicism
wherever it is tube found, except en Irish soil, but when we
come there we will tell you that the book called Secundus
Secundi stands between us and the discharge of our duty.—
( Hear, hear.) The Irish Roman Catholic peasant wished to
have their priests educated—the Roman Catholic Bishops
wished their pastors educated in a manner that would be
crcditahle to the Church, but what do you tell them ?
" You admire Thomas A quinas—you have Maldonatua on
your shelves, and we cannot therefore assist you." My Lords,
that would not be satisfactory.—( Hear, hear.) It would be
as illogical in point of fact as unsatisfactory to the Irish
people.—( Hear. ) But the case clidnot rest there. They were
not to encourage error it was said—it was a national sin to do
so—the religions world were invited to join in this op.
position. Exeter-hall sent forth its petitions, and its
walls re•eehoed its d bates. Ile bad shown then that
they supported Catholicism elsewhere—that they had sanc-
tioned instruction in Catholicism from the scar 179) in
Ireland, but they had gone farther. Ile held in his hand the
report of the affairs of the East India Company. He found, in
respect to Bengal, they supported there a Mahometan College
at Calcutta—that they supported another at Benares, ama just
let them hear the reason. The Noble Lord then read an ex-
tr2et, the substance of which was as follows, from the report
:
"'f he Calcutta, or Mahomedan, College was founded at the
request of several distinguished Iflahomedans. There have
been grattts of money ; inspection and inquiry ; a course of
science was taught there, comprisicg natural philosophy, law,
astronomy, geology, oratory, rhetoric, &e. The salaries were
there fixed." In Lke manner, at Benares, there was a Sanscrit
College, founded "for the preservation and cultivation of the
lass, literature, aid religion of the Bintioos, and more parti,
cultrly of the laws of the scent el city." Were they, after
this, disposed to go back to Ireland, anti say, " We
have founded the sacrel city of Benares—we have
provided for the instruction of the Mahometans, we
have provided for the ILnitoos, but from those who
are near to u;, nod ought (and 1 believe are)
dear to us, we will withhold this grant, and argue against the
grant, on the ground that wo will cot condescend to increase
error." Ho was of opinion that the Christian religion, in ally
modification, or in any sense of the words, was not error. Let
them prove to him that that religion was error as compared
With that of I3indoos add Mahomedan, and then, indeed,
they would be justified on this ground in withholding the grant
to the people of Ireland; hut whilst they patronised the re-
ligion of the Hindoos—whilst they supported the sacred city of
Benares, he did not see how they could refuse the people of
Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) Ono word more; they had built a
Roman Catholic church at Surat, and Roman Catholic churches
in ether parts ofthe Presidency of Bombay. The argument
was suggested to him by his Noble and Learned Friend on the
Woolsack (Lord Brougham) —who did not advert to it because
Le wished at much so posslblo to impress the subject ; and
what had foreign countries done ? Did they treat the
religion of the people adversely because it differed front that of
the m2jority, and would this be used as an argument for treat-
ing the Roman Catholics of Ireland in the manner they had
done? No such thing. Let them laok to France. Lock to
other countries where there were differences of religious
opinions, and see whether this would be a safe lesson to read to
the people of Ireland. We might tell them that foreign coun-
tries showed more respect and deference to the religion of
Protestants in foreign countries than England showed to the
people of Ireland. He was perfectly warranted in saying that
this question presented at least one peculiar characteristic.
Then no ono had suggested any alternative, any proposal, or
remedy, in case the present grant wore removed. The Noble
Earl (Roden) did not say his motion was an alternative, but,
with the frankness and honesty which characterised him, said
that he did not propose the motion in any serious light, but
purely as an objection to tho Bill. But what
were they to do? Were they to pass the Bill or leave
the law as it now stood—or were they to repeal that law ?
Those who argued against the present state of things in May-
nooth could not vote for the continuance of the present grant--
by their own account they could neeepermit the present state
of things to continue. A snair.44'oii' had been made in the
other House for the removal of the grant, but nobody was found
to support that proposal. Surely those on the other side who
would oppose any grant, could not be favourabl e to the
Irish Roman Catholic prieshood receiving a foreign education.
Would not tho arguments of ultramontane doctrines and fo-
reign influence be stronger than at present, and Mr. Lord, a
high authority on these matters, slid, referring to the College
of Rome, " What can we expect to get from Rome but foreign
influences, bigotry, and superstition." This, upon the Noble
Earl's own showing, would apear more objectionable. In
the course of the Noble Earl's opening speech, in
moving the amendment, he referred to a great and
high name—damns et venerabile nomen one which
must excite the sympathy and command the respect of the
people of England. Ile meant Mr. Wilberforce.—( Hear,
hear.) From the manner in which his name had been intro-
duced, those who were unaequantcd with his character and
Parliamentary conduct might suppose that Mr. Wilberforce
was against the Roman Catholic religion, arid especially against
the grant to Maynooth. In the words which Mr. Wilberforce
used in 1808, he could see no such expression.-(Hear,
hear, hear.) The question at that time wasether
under the peculiar circumstances of the case the• Percival
Government was or was not justified in continuing the in-
creased grant made by their predecessors in office ; but what
did he say on that occasion ? He called attention to that
because the name and authority of Wilberforce were high, and
must have the greatest influence on the minds of persons op-
posed to the grant. The Noble Duke the Secretary for Ire-
land observed that he would not object to the grant on prin-
ciple ; he had never said he would object to
the grant on principle. The Noble Duke, referring to Par-
liamentary documents, stated distinctly that he objected to the
increase, because there was already a sufficient number of
priests for the population. Mr. Wilberforce, in place of
objecting to the Maynooth grant—instead of saying anything
condemnatory, said, " I am for toleration—we not only
tolerate but lend encouragement to the Roman Catholic re-
ligion." Mr. Wilberforce did not condemn that—if he
bad condemned it he would have voted against the small_vote
as against the large ; but he spoke in approval of it contrast-
ing the conduct of the people of England with the conduct
of other countries, in which they regarded toleration as the dis-
charge of a national duty, that they not only tolerated--that
was they had not only ceased to persecute and withdraw disa-
bilities, but they had done an act of grace and favour like that
of founding Maynooth. Another name bad been,used Which had
great influence—he meant the name of Alexander Knox.
A more pious, respectable and respected man could not be
named, and the best proof could give of it was the fact that
he was the intimate friend of Bishop Jebb. Well, then, he
(Lord Monteagla) Would now show their Lordships that the
Noble Lord opposite (Lord Roden) was mistaken when he
stated that Mr. Knox was opposed to the Maynooth grant.
The Earl of RODEN said his statement was, that Mr. Knox
was opposed to the proceedings in May nooth, not to the grant
to it—quite the contrary.
Lord MONTEAGLE—WeII, then, ho would show the
House that Mr. Knox was not only not opposed to the grant,
or felt unfavOurably towards Maynooth, but that he had, in fact,
always beerOavourable to it. It appeared by an authority he
had now before him, that Mr. Knox was at one time made the
medium of Communication between the Government and May-
nooth. Ho; was examined before a Committee in 1826, after
he had been. twenty years in the appointment he (Lord Mont-
eagle) had mentioned, and his evidence was to the effect that
ho applied far an increase of the grant to Maynooth and got it;
therefore, it= was quite clear that Mr. Knox could not have
taken a salary for twenty years in that situation if he did not
give his ; entiro approval to Maynooth.—(Cries of
" Hear, hear.") The Noble Lord opposite hat made a
speech on this subject, which.certsinly had made a great inipres-
con on the -HOLM particularly in reference to what he had
stated about the occurrence in Dingle ; but he (Lord Mont-
eagle) would say that all these statements should not he taken

for granted or 'ilia:, at least, some allowance should be made
for the state: of feelings of the different parties.—( Hear, hear.)
Ile (Lord i%lonteagle) had also heard something said about the
Catholic people not keeping their oaths, and he would have a
word or twn'to say about that presently ; but in reference to
the Dingle c ise, the parties charged were tried by a mixed jury
of their omit, countrymen, and a verdict of guilty returned
against them.! Now, he believed they had all heard of certain
proceedings that had taken llac.? iri the island of Ach:le. Ile
( Lord Illont.,i;lc) had heard a statement of the psalm] .rs
from an eye. um nesso. barrister and a rel3tive of his own, and its
(Lord MontAigle) could not but say that these proceedings
were such ea would be sufficient to hear down all human
restraint before it._( Hear, hear.) The circumstances of the
occurrence 'were these— certain missionaries went to the island
Achile, and a certain person2ge, of whom they all had heard
a great deal;,lnamely, Dr. Machale, upon hearing of this
arrival, proceeded to the island to offer up the solemn sacrifice
of the msss.\\ All the Catholic people of the island had
assembled round their clergy on the occasion, and their form
of worship wa offered up in the usual form of ecclesiastical
pomp and solemnity; but while the Roman Catholic people
k'
werere thus engaged in prayer, those missionaries came amongst
the
they ealleel a h.e m, and, kdding up in the midst of that large crowd
" consecrated wafer " asked the people was
that what the t their G
od? In consequence of this there

was a rush forward made'by the people, and he (Lord Mont '
eagle) would say, that he knew not what people in any
country would not have.done the sarne.under the same circum.
stances.—(Hear, hear.) This stet of those missionaries was
what some Noble Lords might call indiscreet ; but he (Lord
Monteagle) would call it a most intolerant act. However,
upon that occasion the Roman Catholio priests came forward,
and rescued those missionaries, and protected and defended
them, and thus through the means of those very men whose
ministers 'iad been so go grossly and wantonly insulted, the
public peace had been preserved. —(Hear, hear.) Under such
circumstances he would ask their Lordships would they be sur-
prised to hear that the public peace had been violated; he
would say that if the people had remained passive at the time of
that occasion they would have shown themselves not men, but
less than men to have done so.--( Hear, hear.) The Protestants
of Ireland, it had been said, bad expressed themselves as hos-
tile to this measure ; some persons who had arrogated that title
had sent in petitions certainly, but he denied that
they were the Protestants of Ireland.—( Hear, hear.)
He was a Protestant, and as such he should say that more in-
jury than service was done that establishment by such facts as
that there were some parishes in Ireland with rich emoluments
but no parishioners ; while in others there were parishioners
but clerical inefficiency.—(Hear, hear.) Yet he wotild never
be the man to consent to the endowment of the Catholic
Church out of the revenues of the Protestant Church.—
(Cheers.) Ho had heard the Noble Duke say, that the Ro-
man Catholics were there, and what was to be done with them?,
He was glad to hear that admission, for there was a period in
Ireland—the year 1759—when it was declared from the judi-
cial bench, that it was assumed that there was ne such thing
in the country as a Roman Catholic.—( Hear, hear.) He be-
lieved the Catholics of Ireland felt the sanctity of an oath as
much as any Protestant, and it never could bo said that they
had over violated their oath of allegiance to the Crown.
Such being the case, why was it to be said that
those who voted for this grant were those who assented to
violate the oath of allegiance 1 He had ever found the Ca-
tholic priests denounce the violation of the law, and he bad
known them not only encotieter risk, but even death, in sup-
port of thelaw—( Hear, hear)—and as an example of that, be
might mention the Rev. Mr. M.Queeny, who was shot in so
laudable a work.--( Hear, hear.) In . Clare the Catholic
' priests had even been refused access to their own chapel, in
consequence of their efforts to uphold the law. While he said
this he must admit that many of the priests were politically
excited, and there might have been foolish, and indiscreet
songs sung on St. Patrick's day at the College of
Maynooth, but while he said this he must at the same time ad-
mit that he should be sorry to hold himself responsible or any
man for the songs that had been sung at Trinity College. It
was said that there was great evidence of the opposition of this
country to the Bill in the petitions that had been presented.
He objected to those petitions being considered as any evidence
againstthe grant to Maynooth. Many of them were presented
by Dissenters, and what did their petitions amount to? Were
they againit Maynooth? No, but against any Church en-
dowment at all. He rejected them, therefore, altogether as bear-
ing upon the qeestion. The politics of the last ten years
he believed had caused the great excitement on this subject.
He was sorry to say that Ireland had been the battle-field of
party ; every thing Irish or Roman Catholic, both in Parlia-
ment and out of doors, was held up in a way to cause excite-
ment, and those parties had conjured up a cry for which they
were now suffering. He did not recur to the past with any
feeling or desire to be reproachful. It had been said in the,
other House of Parliament, that, in reference to this Bill, the
Government of the Noble Duke opposite was entitled to the
deepest gratitude of the people of Ireland; and, as an individual
member of that country, he sincerely tendered them his most
unqualified thanks.—( Hear, hear.) A wiser, and a better,
and a more conciliatory measure than the present could not
have beer, proposed, and were lie disposed to apply
the magnifying eye to all the circumstances of
the case, it would be impossible for him to find
anything to lead him to think that Government had been
actuated by any other motive than that of doing good in intro-
ducing this ( Cheers. ) They must have known, from
their past experience aed from past occurrences, that the
measure would he objected to by many of their supporters,
while, on the other hand, they were doubtful whether it would
be acceptable to those whom it would most and immecliate:y
affect. At the same time the Government must have felt it to
be a just and right measure, and having introduced it he trusted
their Lordships would pass i . And he would here retnerk that
the majority upon this mea• ure was a majority which would
fall not merely on the question of May-wroth, but also
upon the question of repeal. It would prove the most signal
defeat to those who had endeavoured to raise the cry that from
the Imperial Parliament no justice, no conciliation, and no
kindness to Ireland was to be expected.—( Hear, hear. ) Why,
it was palpable that the contrary was the fact. Let them look
throueh the annals of past times, and they would find that the
Irish Parliament refused all inquiry into the question of tithes,
while the Imperial Parliament removed the abuse of tithes
altogether. 'the Iri,h Parliament adopted the most vexatious
and most odious system of taxation, reaching the pockets of
the bushiest of the people, and this abominable system the
' Imperial Parliament had destroyed.— (Ilea r, hear.) The
Irish Parliament passed the Penal Acts, but the
Imperial Parliament abolished them. He said, then,
the Imperial Parliament had a claim upon the consideration
and respect and affection of Ireland. Whatever might be told
to the people of Ireland, their feelings, (heir interests, axle he
could say their religion, were respected and regarded much
more, and much better by the Imperial Parliament than they
could be by a Parliament of their own. —(Cheers. )
The Bishop of ST. DAVID'S said it was not the peculiar
nature of this measure as connegted with the interests of reli-
gion, nor was it the want of unanimity on this subject observ-
able on the bench of which he was an oceupant, that made him
desirous to trespass upon their Lordships, but there was another
consideration he had in view in rising to address their Lord-
shipe. After the differences of opinion which had been
exhibited on this matter he was extremely anxious not to give
a silent vote on this occasion. He respected the opposition out
of doors against this measure, and the turn it had taken was
such as absolutely prevented him giving a silent vote. He be-
lieved unfair means had been taken to abuse the public opinion
upon the subject, and, moreover, although the opposition
presented a very compact and united front, it was impos-
sible for their Lordships to conceal from themselves the
fact, that that front covered as great a difference and repugnance
of opinion as existed between those who supported and de-
fended the measure.—( Hear, hear.) And that observation,
applied no less forcibly to those who contended for the volun-
tary principle, for some wero in favour of religions voluntary
principle, while others advocated a political voluntary principle,
and the two were as wide and as far assunder as
the poles. It had been amatter of doubt with. some, whether

any principle was involved in the Bill, and on the whole he
was inclined to think that the Bill touched upon little that
could be called principle. He could perfectly well understand that
those who objected to the annual grant, could object still more
strongly to the increase, and he could just as easily understand
that those who assented to the annual grant might not be sa-
tisfied with the policy or the wisdom of the present measure,
but he really could not see how those parties could dissent
from the Bill on the ground of anything like principle.—( Hear. )
The principal object which he had in addressing their Lord-
ships was, that he might have an opportunity of explaining the
principles on which he supported the present measure; but he
could not do so until he had cleared the way by removing some
of those objections which had so powerfully influenced the
public mind, and until he had shown why those objections had
not affected his opinion in voting against the proposed grant.
He would briefly notice one objection with respect to the pre-
sent subject. It had been assumed that this
measure was essentially a sacrifice of principle to
expediency, and we had been assured it was right to do evil
that good might come. That principle was not right it was
evident; but he would wish their Lordships to remember that
the dictum was totally inapplicable to the present ease. The
cases to which it might be appropriately applied were those
only. in which there was unmixed good and unmixed evil, or
unmixed truth and unmixed error. If the maxim were to be
applied to the present measure, it must be expressed in very
different terms. The question was not will you do
good in order that evil may come, but will you do good
with a slight admixture of evil, or will you refuse to convey
truth, if it be a truth, amalgamated with the smallest quan-
tity of error. This objection would apply to all the arguments
that had been raised against the present measure, and all the
fallacies that had been brought forward to compete it would be
completely answered, if it was inquired had anything better
been proposed as a substitute than that which was now offered.
He would say, do all the good you can when you cannot do
all the good you wish. He would now proceed to another
point, which embraced many considerations within its
ephere, but he would confine his observations to only:,
one. The present measure had been stigre at iqc 4'l
as a measure that sanctioned idolatry and superstitioe. They
had been told by the Noble Earl that idolatry and entierstition
Were very hard names and harsh terms, but they were not oily
harsh terms but also very loose and indefinite terms, and they
conveyed a general idea of some kind of religious error, while,
at the same time, they suggested feelings of contempt and
hatred, but they performed the latter part of their office
more effectually than they did the other. Ho would wish
their Lordships for one moment to consider the state
of religion among the most savage, degraded, and
uncivilized races that were ,known of either in ancient
or modern times. Think of the votaries of Jugger-
naut, and of the miserable idolatry of Iceland and the South
Seas, and then say what stronger terms could be applied to
them than the epithets of idolaters and superstition.—( Hear. )
Ho would ask if they had now for the first time to form the
coronation oath, would it not admit of a lair and reasonable
doubt that it was necessary or expedient to put words into the
mouth of :the sovereign of this realm, to testify his ad-
herence to tho epithets that would stigmatise many
of his subjects as idolaters and superstitious. It
was doubtless, however, that these terms would be
objected to if they were taken in the fullest meaning. Those
words were not intended to be made the subject of a discussion,
such as had been heard from the Noble Duke on the cross-
benches. He would say that in public documents it would be
better to avoid language which must necessarily give birth to
angry and unpleasant feelings on every point. There was a
solemnity annually performed by the Church of England which
was a thanksgiving for deliverance from great danger, and ha
hoped that that solemnity would never be abolished, but ho
feared it was made use of for the purpose of re-creating
religious animosities, and it was in his opinion a matter
of congratulation from their Lordships that they were dis-
cussing the present measure on the 4th of Jima, and not on the
eve of the bth of November. As to the coronation oath,
which might contain the words superstitious and idolatrous, it
was absurd to suppose that the Sovereign of this realm could
ever be bound to set himself in opposition to the constitutional
interests and wishes of his people. He was only speaking as
to what superstition and idolatry were. There was, however,
another point. We were told that the present was a
measure in which idolatry and superstition would be
sanctioned. If there were no error in it, he would
freely admit there was no gainsaying it.—( Hear, hear. )
He would illustrate his view of the subject by reference to the
fact that in the Government of Saxony —a country where the
great mass of the people were Protestants-20,000 dollars had
been granted to relieve the Roman Catholics when they were
placed in difficulties. He could not see that in doing this the Ro-
man Catholic religion hed been recognised. If that was so, as lie
stated it, then he would ask did the present measure sanction the
of calculation Roman
C
Catholic
whicholicreligi;enrs- ionnsanoyfoa greattherwayv?arielttywaost opinionsa question
might join in supporting, without its bolding in any way to the
sanctioning of religious error, more than in the other ease
which he had given. lie believed that this grant would neither
strengthen or perpetuate the Roma-a Catholic religion.
—( Hear, hear.) There was one other matter to which ho
would refer before proceeding to state, as succinctly as he could,
hisreasons Ler supporting the Bill. It was a point containingy,
the essence of the qaestion. He did not see there was an-
sufficient ground for the amendment of the Noble Earl pro
posing a Select Committee to ingnire into the character and
doctrines of the College of Maynooth. The inqniry proposed
by the Neble Earl either went too for, or did not go far
eneugh. For his part, lie agreed with the Noble and Learned
Lord opposite, and with a Right Reverend Prelate
who had already spoken on the question, both of whom said
that such an inquiry was altogether unnecessary. But, admit-
ting that it was necessary, it was not sufficient to take the Col-
lege of Maynooth—they must take a much wider range. They
must not only ascertain the present condition of that
college at the present mement, but also what it was at
a former time, when the:professors of that establishment were
loyal and true in their attachment to• Anti-Jacobin principles.
They should not only do this, • but they should cscertain the
class-books and course of education in other Roman Catholic
colleges in England, Scotland, and Ireland ; and also learn the
kind of books employed in the colleges on the Conti-
nent—at Rome, Lisbon, Palermo, and other cities, where
Roman Catholic students would have to be educated, suppos..

ing the College of Maynooth was abolished. He fully admitted
the existence of the passages which had been taken from the
class-books used at that institution, and which had been so often
employed against this measure—passages selected with the
most anxious and jealous scrutiny to make agaiiist the Roman
Catholics. And how stood the case ? The most flagrant injustice
had been inflicted on the Roman Catholic religion by the
course taken. It was represented that the . doctrines taught
would have the effect of poisoning the source of domestic
morals, and inculcating persecuting, unconstitutional, and de-
grading doctrines. He had read those books from whence
those conclusions were purported to be drawn, and he could
see no difference in the general scope or tendency of what
they taught: and the books of the most eminent Christian
writers. As an evidence of the spirit of the Roman Catholic
books, about which so mach noise had been made, he would
refer to a work of the highest authority in the Roman- Catho-
lic Church, which so far from inculcating doctrines dangerous
to morality, gave the most correct and liberal interpretation
of the Confessional. It stated that it would be impossible and
improper to use the Confessional in any instance in which
the passions could be excited, or the purity of the parties con-
fessing should be violated. The Right Rev. Prelate here
read an extract from the work, the name of which did not
transpire, to the foregoing effect, and also to the effect that
the doctrines of passive submission were taught. As a practical
illustration of the effect of the Roman Catholic) religion, he
might further refer to Ireland, the poorer class of which, in
morality, would bear comparison with the people of any other
country in the world. But he would not found any argument
on the difference of opinion between those Roman Catholic
writers and any Protestant moralist. What had
been the influence of such works, after all ? Did
any of them believe that • Roman Catholic was
less aware of the sanctity of an oath than a Pro-
testant? There was one other point which he wished
to refer to with reference to this subject—he meant the accusa-
tions that had been raised againstthe instruction adopted in the
College of Maynooth. It was said that the doctrines inculcated
were dangerous to political principles—that they adopted ultra-
montane doctrines with regard to the supremacy of the Pope.
He admitted that such principles were asserted in their works,
but ho was prepared to ,say that they had not had evidence to
prove that such doctrines were taught, whether they were ultra-
montane, or whether they were the doctrines of the Gallican
church. He ventured to assert, that so far from having rea-
son to apprehend with fear the extension of the Papal power,
they had, in a political point of view, every reason to wish
that the Pope had far greater influence in Ireland than ho
now had.—( Hear. hear.) The Pope was the ally of' despotic
Governments. Ho was not the ally of Espartero but of
Don Carlos ; he had no sympathy with Louis Philippe, but
with the exiled family of the Bourbons—not with the reign-
ing family of this country, but with the exiled Pretender.
So far, then, from there being any connexion between
the Pope and Irish agitation, there must - always
be the greatest variance between them.—( Hear.) The
Pope was well aware that the agitation in Ireland proceeded
, from persons who held precisely the same principles as those
entertained by the democratic party for whpm the Pope en-
tertained the greatest dread, with respect to their influence and
his power at home. There could therefore be no alliance.
The doctrines taught in the College of Maynooth would not de-
pend on the words or professions contained in their books, :but
'on the spirit and disposition of the teachers. This opinion was
entertained by a great body of the Catholics in that country.
Whenever they accomplished such a state of things as would
render the Irish people happy and contented, he would venture
to say, that they would hear nothing more
about agitation among the Irish priests, for it
was the natural tendency of their religion to suc-
cumb to those in authority. He was borne out in that
testis •ony by history. If they did not adopt the Bill they would
commit a great national sin ; by adopting it they would go a
great way to efface the guilt of that oppressive Government
which they had for so many centuries inflicted on Ireland.—
( Hear, hear.) That ought to weigh upon the consciences of
this nation, and he called upon them to avert that retri-
bution and that guilt by adopting the measure before the House.
In the second place this was a measure of policy. It was part
of a large and liberal policy.—(Great cheering.) It was neces-
sary that this measure should be passed for the safety of the
kingdom. it was a system and course of policy absolutely
necessary for the welfare of the empire. This was the basis on
which the whole interest of the country rested, and if they at-
tempted to put. it on any narrower basis, they would so far un-
dermine property as to render- it perfectly unsafe. Their
Lordships were now simply invited to give to the, Roman Ca-
tholic Clergy in Ireland in this respect in the same condition
as those who ere engaged as Boman Catholic ministers in the
colonial dependencies. If they thought that they were not to
regard expediency, but principle, he perfectly agreed with them;
but that in no way affected the question at issue ; sod he thought
that this was a matter of principle, and he was quite
satisfied with his own conduct in giving his adhe-
sion to the grant which they were that night
called on to make. In the third place, they were now called
upon to make good one of the promises they had made at the
union. At that time an engagement was made that in the
event of the union being effected that Ireland shoutd enjoy the
same advantages as she possessed in the enjoyment of a do-
mestic legislation, and he believed that if that promise were not
kept iewould be at the risk of a disruption of the union and a
dismemberment of the empire. lie had stated that this mea-
sure considered in itself, or as a part of the policy now pursued
with regard to Ireland, was a measure of conciliation. But
they were asked where were ,the signs of conciliation? Had
it really conciliated the Irish people? He admitted that it
might have very imperfectly effected that object, but what
were the reasons? It could not be expected that a
century of misrule could be immediately and in-
stantaneonsly remedied—( le:ye—and they . were now
paying the penalty of their former errors. Even the opposition
now offered neutralised and prevented the beneficial results
of that measure. This was the effect of their own conduct,
and yet they were the very persons who used the argument
in this case, that Ireland evinced no appearance of being con-
eiliated.—eChcers. ) He would only say that the effect of this
cppcsition of their Lordships would be, if successful, most dan-
gerous to the peace of that country. One of the arguments
used by the opponents of this measure was, that the present
State allowance far the purpose of educating the Roman
Catholic priesthood would eventually lead to the giving
of an endowment to the Roman Catholic Church
itself. Ho coubi foresee no such result. He was
glad to observe, too, that one of the Right Reverend
Prelates (the Bishop of Exeter) who had addressed the House
in opposition to the Bill, had made reference to Dr. Arnold,
for he trusted that that prelate would nosy study the works of
that divine, and in that study he would at once meet his (the
Bishop of St. David's) encouragement. Dr. Arnold had
made the following declaration :—" Good prelates and worse
Christians have talked so long about the beast and Antichrist,
that the question of charity, as regarded their duty to their
fellow-Christians, had been neglected as if by common
consent." But what need had they of such testimony, how-
ever high ? Had they not that of "the present Chief Minister of
the French kingdom? Had they not that of the distinguished
Nobleman, who had just left the British shore, after effecting
a treaty which, he trusted, would preserve peace between
the two countries? And had they not the testimony of one of the
first authorities in Russia to the advantages arising to any
kingdom from the mitigation of religious rancour, and the al-
layment of all animosities between contending creeds? lie was
very sorry for so long occupying their Lordsips, but he had
felt it to be his duty to state to the House the grounds upon
which ho supported the Bill. —( Hear, hear. )
There were then load cries of " Divide, divide," which,
however, gave way to—
The Earl of CHARLEVILLE, who assured their Lord-
ships that he had great unwillingness to oppose any measure
which was calculated to give satisfaction to his Roman Catho-
lic countrymen. He lived amongst them, and he loved them
.—( Hear, bear)—and it was painful to him to be compelled to
say anything which could wound their religious feelings. After
the observation of the Right Rev. Prelate, for whom he enter-
tained every personal respect possible, he hoped that he would
not be offended with him (Lord Charleville) when he stated
that he listened to his speech with extreme regret. He would
wish to call the attention of their Lordships to the point
whether there was a new principle involved in the measure
proposed by her Majesty's Government, and as to this being
an endowment for the first time. The Act of 1795 was an
endowment of the College of Maynooth, and the trustees were
appointed for the purpose of establishing, endowing, and main-
taining the College of Maynooth. It was then intended to
remove some of the disabilities, pains, and penalties under
which the Roman Catholics labotired. %( Here the Noble Lord
made a long pause, and took a written
.aper from his pocket,
which he looked at—there were 1 ries of " Hear," and
great laughter. The Noble Lord: Ispcd the paper and re-
of
Lammed, but again stopped.' The same impatience
,vas manifested, upon which the Noble Lord
;said he was suffering from great pain, and having
said so, referred to the paper again, and wont on,
but with great hesitation.) A question was raised
whether the class-books at Maynooth taught a different system
from that of Maldonakus and St. Thomas Aquinas. In the
canons sanctioned by the Pope, and published in 1839, it was
stated that ecclesiastics were not bound by the oath of allegi-
ance to their Prince, but that they might resist even Princes
when the rights and honours of their Church were at stake,
even for their own advantage. Kingly power was subject to,
and bound to obey the Church. This was written by Jesuits,
and he thought it would not be difficult to show that the Col-
lege of Maynooth was jesuitical. Whether his Noble Friend
opposite denied or admitted this fact, he should, at all events,
vote for inquiry. The Noble Baron (Lord Clifford) last night
asked of the Right Reverend Prelate if he had read
the report of the Commissioners of Education, and
the evidence of the Reverend Peter Kenny, a 'Jesuit.
He need not more particularly call the attention of their
Lordships to the letter of Dr. Kenny. But this he would say,
that that Rev. Gentleman was educated at the Jesuit College of
Palermo, where the form was gone through of asking certain
questions in reference to the religious feelings of the candidate
for admission, as well as the country of his nativity. When
Dr. Kenny left college he became Vice-President of the College
of Maynooth, on the recommendation of the Rev. Dr. Murray,
who gave him the highest character. as an accomplished
divine, which he ( Lord Charleville) could not of course
say he did not deserve. Dr. Kenny left that college soon
after for Cluges, and while there, it appeared by his own
letters, that he had admitted at Maynooth no fewer than
200 of the pupils to the fraternity of the Sodality of the
Sacred heart of Jesus. Now, let him call attention to the
words of the Noble Duko near him, is April, 1829, when the
Emancipation Bill was introduced to their Lordship' House.
Upon that occasion, the Noble Duke gave it as his decided
opinion that monastic institutions should not be permitted to
increase in Ireland. He would now call their Lordships' atten-
tion to the 34th clause of the Roman Catholic Relief Bill, and
by that their Lordships would see whether or not the provisions
of that clause had not been carried out, in reference to
monastic
institutions in Ireland. The Noble Earl then read the 34th
clause of the Emancipation Act, which enacted that any person
hemming a Jesuit was guilty of a misdemeanor, and subject
to banishment for life. Now, if they proved that persons
in Maynooth were admitted to take up that order, he did
not see how a Committee could be refused to them. He had
no reason to believe that the Roman Catholics of Ireland had
any interest in this question. They considered it as valueless.
He could not understand what good was to be derived from the
measure. If this Bill was to lead to ulterior measures, he
could easily conceive a strong desire on the part of the
Roman Catholics to have the Rill passed, and he thought the
House ought to know distinctly from Government, before- they
sanctioned. this Bill, if they intended to follow .it
up with other measures of a more extensive character.
He was surprised that the Noble Duke should admit his igno-
ranee of what was going forward in Ireland at the time he
spoke on the question the other night. He had himself re-
ceived newspapers on Friday morning last from Ireland, and it
was extraordinary that her Majesty's Government should be so
blind to what was being enacted in the Irish capital at that
period, as not to inquire into the result either on Saturday or
Sunday. For the particular' information of the Government, he
woul I road an extritetfrom two letters he had received on Mon-
day. He referred to the levee recently held in the City of Dublin.
The Noble Lord hereread the extract, which described the im-
Posing appearance of tits-, procession, and the proceedings that
subsequently took place in Conciliation-hall, with the address
of Mr. O'Connell, and the oath taken on the occasion. ,The
oath was a pledge binding all those who took it to, make -every
exertion to achieve legislatiVe independence far Ireland by all
moral, loyal, and constitutional rneans.--( Hear, hear.) It was
a dangerous and deplorable state of things for a country to de-
.petri for the preservation of its peace upon the exertions of
one man, who could thus, at any moment, call together such
hundreds of thousands of 'individuals. He thought the Go.
vernment might have taken other steps for the good of Ireland,
than the bringing in a measure ofehis kind, if they wished_ to
p
secure the eace and welfare of flit people of Ireland.
Lord STANLEY Raids whatever regret he or her Majesty's

Government might have felt, he could assure the Noble Earl
who had just sat down that regret was sincere. He should
regret if they lost the support of the Noble Earl, or of other
Noble Lords who considered. that the Government were un-
worthy of the cotfideace reposed in them by proposing the
measure before the House. He still repeated that in the per-
formance of the duties which they owed to the country,
and which had guided the Ministers of this great
empire in discharging the functions with which they had been
trusted, they had acted consistently, and with a desire to pro-
mote the peace and the prosperity of the country ; 'and he
knew not what were the measures which the Noble Earl sup-
posed they ought to have adopted. Ho (Lord Stanley) knew
not what those steps were which ought to have been
taken in consequence of the proceedings which he said had
taken place—but this he would say, that that department of her
Majesty's Government to which the peace of the country more
especially belonged had got the earliest information of what had
taken place, or what was likely to take place in Dublin. They did
not hear of a demonstration which was likely to disturb the
public peace, or that in those proceedings there was any viola-
tion of the law of the land, and if that result should be upon an
occasion intended to celebrate the anniversary of the conviction
which was subsequently set aside by ajudgment of their Lord-
ships' House on technical points of law—if the crowds who went
to pay their respects to Mr. O'Connell, and to express their
opinions—if a much larger proportion of the population of
Dublin, as his Noble Friend bad stated, in boats and ships
came with flags to see the precession—if all these things
took; place, and if no interruption of the peace took
place—that no violation of the law took place—that
in the opinion of the officers of the law there
was nothing in the proceedings of that day that made any man
amenable to the law. He ( Lord Stanley) himself thought it
was the duty of the Government to watch that there was no
interruption of the public peace, and that they were not called
upon by such an occasion to come forward and see that the
proceedings:were not beyond or above the law. He could not
think that great part of the Noble Earl's speech was pecu-
liarly applicable to the subject-matter ; neither did he pre-
cisely understand why the Noble Earl drew a distinction be-
tween the proceedings of some days in Dublin and of others.
He did not think the Noble Lord (Lord Roden) was serious in
proposing the amendment which he had brought forward. He
distinctly stated that he brought it forward—not because
he had the smallest idea that it would lead to
an inquiry not that it would affect his vote,
but to stop and defeat the measure that had been brought for-
ward by her Majesty's Government..—( Hear, hear.) He
brought forward his amendment for the purpose of an inquiry
into the doctrines taught in the College of Maynooth, and of
the discipline of the College. And why ? Because he could
prove that since the passing of the Catholic Relief Act, certain
young men in that College had been admitted into the society
of the Jesuits. The Noble Earl said he was prepared to prove
what he had stated. If such a thing had happened—
in opposition to the Act of 1829, any young men
hal been introduced from that college into the Society of
Jesuits. he was liable to be banished for a misdemeanor.
If, therefore, the Noble Earl, or any one else, was desirous
to proceed, the law was open to them. He (Lord Stan-
ley) understood that the amendment was not to be a sub-
stantial measure, and the question was, would they accept or
reject the measure proposed by her Majesty's Government.
He conceived that such an inquiry as that proposed
by the Noble Earl would , be entirely useless.
He would admit, nay, he would say, that if the inquiry were to
be instituted according to the motion of the Noble Earl, it
should be made with a view to elicit the practice of the officers
rather than proving from the books of the College the exploded
doctrines which night be gathered from the text-books, but
which were utterly repudiated by the professors of Maynooth.
At the best, such an inquiry must prove most unsatisfactory
and unprofitable. They had no right to institute an inquiry
into the doctrines taught at Maynooth, but they hada right to
inquire into, the manner in which the professors and the pupils
had acted in the exercise of these principles. Into this they
had a right to inquire. But this was the course that
had been pursaed by the professors of that College.
In 1798, when there had been great suspicion of the feelings
and allegiance of the denizens of Maynooth, and when the doc-
trines taught there had come into question, an inquiry had been
instituted into the doctrines taught at that establishment, and
of their effects on its pupils, and what was the re-
sult ? They had found, on inquiry, that there was cause
for suspicion, and they acted accordiegly. About that .time a.
number of pupils. had been to Maynooth, and the first thing
that was presented to them was the offer of the oath of supree
macy. Many of them had, doubtless, availed themselves of the
kissing the thumb instead of the book, and all those little
means of equivocation which were so well known, and well ap-
preciated by those who wished to take an 'undue and im-
proper advantage of it. In this instance the oath of supremacy
and allegiance had been tendered and accepted, and when the
test was tried it was found that both the students and-the profes-
sors were equally anxious to support the character of all
in the establishment. With such a fact before them, were they
to slander away the character of those who had the guidance
of the College of Maynooth ? What was the character of the
oath which was prescribed to the students on entering the Col-
lege? It contained provisions for the whole of those duties,
which, as members of a social community, they were bound to
fulfil. That was the declaration of the time, and it was fully
borne out by the politics and proceedings of Maynooth ; and
when, in 1798, the inquiry of -which he had spoken had been
instituted, it had led to the expulsion of several students from
the College.—( Hear, hear.) With regard to the doctrines
taught at Maynooth,, it was very true that Dr. Crotty
and Dr. AP Hale differed in opinion as to the
doctrines taught at Maynooth, yet they kill both agreed in the
principle that they were opposed to the ultra-montane prinsi-
pies which had been so feared by certain professors of the
Roman Catholic doctrines in that College. It was true that
the feelings of the country had been represented as being op-
posed to the Roman Catholic religion; but if he could under-
stand the country right, he was right in asserting that the opi-
nion of the country was gathered from the petitions made to
the IIouse; but the fact was, that those were the petitions of
sectarians, and not of the body of the people. Now he found
that a great majority of the petitions which had been presented
to that House, had proceeded from Dissenting congre-
gations, who held that no religious denominations
ought to be maintained by an endowment from
the State. It was a matter of principle, and they
'
prayed that not Maynooth alone, but that no other establish-
ment connected with the Church should receivean endowment.
To the Noble Lord who bad spoken that evening, he would
say that neither from Oxford or Cambridge had any petition
been presented in opposition to the measure before their
Lordships.
A NOBLE LORD—Nor from Dublin.
Lord STANLEY, in continuation—Nor from Dublin, and
if Noble Lords would carefully examine the signatures ap-
pended to those petitions, they would find that of
the Members of 04ird and Cambridge, who had signed
those petitions—( Hear, hear)—a preponderating number
were in favour of this measure . But of the petitions emanating
from dissenting congregations, he would say, that they were
founded on a supposition altogether erroneous—they were
founded on an apprehension that the measure tended to the in-
jury of the Protestant Church, and to the promotion of the
Roman Catholic faith. Now, he could assure their Lordships
that if he thought that that measure would tend in the slightest
degree to the injury of the Protestant Church, if he thought
that it tended to injure them in their temporal,
or still more, to injure them in their spiritual in-
terests, he (Lord Stanley) would be the first to
refuse his sanction to such a measure, he would be the very
first to denounce that measure, and he would continue his op-
position to it to its very latest stage. He was afraid that the
distinction was not sufficiently marked between those measures
which, while they benefited the Roman Catholic Church, in-
j nred not the Protestant Establishment. And heiwas one who did
not think it necessary to injure the one in order to advantage
the other. He did not think that the benefit conferred on the
one must necessarily injure the other. That was no new opi-
nion of his, and without pretending to any bastard consistency,
he could inform the House that in all times there had
been no change in his opinion, on the subject under dies
cession; there had been no alteration in his votes. He
could well imagine that manrof their Lordships, who, pre-
vious to 1829, would have been desirous of witholding poli-
tical power from Roman Catholics, and who were opposed
to the present measure on the ground of argument, that if
they entrusted political power to a people ignorant, they
would pervert it, to them he would say, it was better to en-
trust. that political power to an educated than to an unedu-
cated people. In the year 1824 he had strenuously resisted
a proposition which he believed to be inimical to the
interests of the country, but that did not prevent him in 1825
from voting for a measure of larger compass than the present
measure, brought forward not for an annual endowment only to
the College of Maynooth, but for the relief of the whole body
of the Roman Catholics. He had been asked whether it was
not a necessary consequence that this endowment of the Col-
lege of Maynooth would not lead to the endowment of the Ro-
man Catholic Church. He saw no such necessary conse-
quence—he saw no such probable consequence. They had for
fifty years given a constant annual aid to the College of
Maynooth, and he could not seo that its perma-
nent endowment necessarily led to an endow-
ment of the Church, any more than that an annual endowment
for the one, should lead to the annual endowment of the other.
He saw obstructions in the opinions and in the prejudices of the
people of this country ; he saw obstructions and objeCtions in
the Roman Catholic clergy themselves ; he saw many and
great objections in the way of this endowment, but he would say
that if any such objections existed in his own mind, religious
scruples would not prevent him from supporting the motion.
Where was the injury to the Protestant Church? Was it
an injury to their temporal or to their spiritual interests?
He knew none such, but it did appear to him, that if an in.
jury to their temporal interests were to be apprehended, that
was still more strongly to be apprehended from an unendowed
than from an endowed establishment—from a body of men
who had been refused every thing, than from a body of men
who had been themselves endowed for the promotion of reli-
gion. If they looked to the spiritual interests of the Church,
or the influence which the education of the Col-
lege of Maynooth would have upon the morals of
the youth, he would say that such a danger might be appre-
hended, if Catholics and Protestants received the same educa-
tion from Roman Catholic teachers ; but that not being the
case, he could conceive no such danger. There were some
who indulged in the dream that, at some future
period, in consequence of some indefinite or un-
defined legislation, the whole of the Rom in Catholics
of Ireland would be within the pale of Protestantism. No
one could wish to see such a consummation more than he
did ; but, looking at the experience of the past, and the pro-
bability of the future, he confessed that ke regarded such a
vision as wholly Utopian. Confessions from the Roman
Catholic religion could not be impeded by this measure, be-
cause if the measure should have any effect upon
Roman Catholics at all it would not be to
make them worse, but rather to make them less and better.—
( Hear, hear.) He was deeply sensible of the many errors and
failings of the Roman Catholic Church, and as strongly con-
vinced of the superior purity of his own Church, and the truth
and doctrines of his own Church ; yet if he were en.
trusted with the care of a being whom he loved best in
the world, say for instance, a child of his own,
he should much rather prefer bringing it up in the profession of
the Roman Catholic religion than leaving it wholly destitute
of religious instruction.—( Hear, hear.) But thin was not a
parallel case with Ireland, for a large proportion of the people
of Ireland were Catholics. They would be Catholics and must
be Catholics, and the question for them now to consider was,
whether they should he instructed Catholics or riot.—(Bear,
hear.) Whether they would suffer their priests to be ignorant,
illiterate and unlettered on the one hand, or well educated and
well instructed on the other.—( Hear, hear.) Then, again,
looking at the matter in a religious point of view, ho was far
from thinking that he was doing anything hostile or at variance
with his religious professions, and he said as a Chris-
tian, not less than as a politician, that it was
right, and wise, and good, that they should
give their Roman Catholic fellow-subjects the best
possible religious education in the form of worship
they preferred to receive it in.—(Hear, hear.) He would not
go over the ground of argument which had been followed by
his Noble Friend, who was connected with the county of Lime-
rick, with regard to the question of principle, so far as the
same measure might apply to the colonies—( Hear,
hear)--but he would simply simply content himself by
which
Malta,anyprinciple,countriestomightd thats ibnnuCnad-
or attached by treaties or otherwise, Roman . Cathol:c institu-
tions were endowed and supported out of the public funds.—
( Hear, hear.) He had carefully examined all the authorities in
favour of the endowment of Maynooth and against it, and from
a full comparison of all that he had heard,- and of all that
he had read, he could come to no other conclpsion, than that by

.....—sseesses•— es
,4„
a superior education of the Catholic priests in Ireland lin reli e
vation of the character of the people would be attainesh 0.,
Noble Lord then read at length extracts from speeche ofisle('
Grattan, Mr. Pitt, and Mr. Burko„in which those distill . the
statesmen expressed themselves as favourable to 8e
00
endowment of the Catholic priests in Irelanoarn_
net
believed that the opinions of those great men were b
c!„.70/
by the facts, and that a great improvement in the chars
elowleot
the priesthood in Ireland had followed from the arranftb.the
which connected the education of the priesthood 151 „ the
Government of the country. He did not wish to oPPetsce, to
statements of his Noble Friend opposite (Lord Beaumones„,
the interpretation which might be put upon certain r IST
obligations.
Lord BEAUMONT explained. e etfiv
Lord STANLEY said that he bad fully accepted the sae
nation of the Noble Lord, and he was btppy to have 0.1! Leo
occasion of arguing with Hear.) The No°,l"BerSe,
then read at great length from the speech essf Grattan 201:_shos.
in favour of the
linedenowment of a Catholic College 111.'3;000
_ Their general of pelicy now was to afford educatioos
.4i,
people of Ireland, and to add to the improvement t ;ere
clergy. In the measures which they had taken, they , to
not prescribing the . course of study which wa 8011
be adopted at Maynooth they weres, oro
making a bettei provision for their comfort, er
tleelS
taking care to do away with the filth and indecency.,r. sole
say, to which the students were now exposed. tn`2,,ises
taking into consideration the maintenaece, and wet heir pan
to give them the same station which the clergy of And th'
ee.rsuasion were placed in. ((Hear, bear.) I've it elll
wished that the students of that college would not lean
~..eBO.
a feeling of disgust at the . inconvenience and 1 "''''
ratitudo
to which they were exposed, but with a feeling
lot With
hof
et hmheiergnGehneo
svortefdrc nithaomsi
gste.hhnet
Why,
oilwiefyenh,sti
sci,
ofhrtdshtieihdtye was
a s lookedsaid
thatfor
get
ei s toref
iceol
for the sum of 1201. per wantedatnhnem ft. oVrobtnteadaslitenortr.he'leliastgb:l!
eumstances did they expect these professors
.weniing ?
all their energies to the duties of their
they
sere
The sum voted was trifling, and the sum which i''?oef
called upon to pay in comparison to the magnitude o.l!ett but s
was trifling. There was no new principle cnntestintat,e, be did
new system. Some were afraid of ultierxioPt•
not deny that he wished this measure to be co
which the
induction of the design, temper, and spirit in ;101;...." ee •
itmeant r to f
ili
a administertion
atuhde
f Government
i t wa s sa i d that th e measures
but
:rite: claadr ebpdinert.iceer:ee:oearittd:o.:
have been extorted from their fears, but the Noble
ss„set 113
sthaiedpsooweartstobfe
tshaemelatwimteo
put
tidtotewdu that the Go!ertt,l7, in th'i
same year that they acted rigorously for the
the peace of the country that they passed the or ow f
and iwhen there was no indication of foreign war tu,tice
disturbances.—( Hear. ) Where, then, was
extorted (Oat'
user).- that the measure had been PeelV' did 0,°3
their fears. His Right Hon. Friend, Sir It threaten 'et
say in the other House he was influenced by tbeexesse,l,l),
hostility of America, in bringing forward this;„t to s(l'the
what he did say vi as, that it was a happy tidl*-' bofer'j'is
message of peace to Ireland, on the very g seesi'e ise
American news arrived. The measure would
cr fesitss,,,,
Ireland with gratitude and satisfaction, for
wkate;ateful. 1,00
Irish people might have, at least they were rgthe Chatritr
measure might not conciliate such firebrands 0- as a ith
slllafitsithshfocapycteioxnHpeigegtbeiyndst,haatlnior those whose trade bailedir:ar .)
lion, but it would, he repeated, 1,3 e sses..--(""ser
ducing a feeling
Irish people, he feared they--
üb(s
nuocetmhroreevi
0 f immediate this
sensible
r measureat
bear
enerrgsct. woi)ammi
us inhe thdeoprsoitootearti,'loo,
etfaoarumsgrteah,
ihtl
iybn
gyfeov.ara,it,nl_,
least, theti,r'elt they per
ever
y, which - , ego col,
geollitae......(be
Hecaalrl,ehdeari ,are Pe i ifeer) •S-
-tress to the Irishmpi v
i. and.iowtuuodi
Would
dl obyea it b
with what
them study to remove that feeling by a constant by thiS ill or
overcome
h:eofavrniitldtbhbuihystogoodtnlholy
elle,a la
ilianui 11::e;teeheaaeoSIOtgrgt;oill'ibe3let
1 t ws:
ore the go/.
and by this means alone, could they hone te;:etbsir heta::Sitrchs
in all its spiritual and temporal rights
tude of the Irish people, and secure a place e. ovse levet'
ssrougro at thy, soil
(Hear.) Let this country firmly uphold o'loe the ,stee
and breadth of the land in Ireland • but let h, the,„lusliYi
time take the Roman Catholic ' le, kindlY ,"81 so i',7o Ita",
taebsin(i
tni
iryoll
a: idtpitfeh, eshiwadreatrui
ehhrss.
ts)liem:ehi
oar
fearful.
hrarauesyhsiL ttwicti
tosohehorriteeeudehol esgerdent:
show them that ynu mean to treat them uPee ;" rsban""' f'
try that it had never been introduced, t"- best. strong ',.„ t
passing of this measure they would secure of t
tilt'var 8
.n)gratttu
course 0
elo
a result of the de a th
at,
Strangers were then ordered to svithatiw',..tle„
divided upon the amendthere anrc-1‘ l'''
amendment, when ' ~...• se
Not Contents ...... .• ... ~ se
Contents ...................... ...."
•------ scbeij
... • set,
Majority against the amendment ..: .
al 0.,00
The House again divided upon the origin
Not
root xci eos
there appeared—
etbirimjlesi ieta'uepeaeottegserdyersteua.,wiui ;etlowtl°
intilauacaallsoetn(tfdlfsn,dCtftowbhatirwliryihileesPaliistl°)nßee suchtl'oittiwihthtgfßill,
reoeh better
would
sai:tt:udeei u'l.
ce step l'IT:
eb:a el
.15
r''ll et
41'
,: fee
:ie' tbP°l.e 6
o'' I. an
11. thely: cit
et el: their
t:lb I':i e referencell
iltij s
oel3
cict ::::: ttl.
I it
Contents, present ............. •••••• 8%!
:tents, present_ ................................ --15,,r6
' ee ,
Proxies - -' is, t,
s--- ,eloe'
Majority for the second reading ••-1 ... .I:oeri. '
tbere
The House then adjourned at a Quarter Pa'
being only thirty-three S 'Il whe° etl"
rUtyS_threemenerspresenE OF COMMON , A, ury
The SreersEß took the Chair at Four o'el° a sdi'
the lieu'
__--
COURT CI RC U14'4;75 IScrety
teal,iite sTisgelh
Belgians"
nit
travelled
cosly
tieea
Boulogne
damilto.i
pagtathoewnhkeanels
tfbs-e
yits:atshtFe
specialeoik an d I'' les 05r°c1 d, se sell ,;
attended bLa Baronire de Finguerlin ands '' t ellaY '-, of t',',
and wore conveyed across the channel in the it loyllf00)
railway,
received by the Marquis of Ormsnde, Lord '0,.„ 'n I''''ttie'd
Queen, and Captain Francis Seymour, r°.- If
tile 91',11.'t
Prince Albert. The illustrious party entered twe,b°, est:civet 1
carriages and four, which were in readiness at t_ axe
proceeded to Buckingham Palace, vvhcre th 4 . 004
is
twenty minutes past two o'clock. t on al gdi
The Royal Duke and Duchess were recciyreo'B' 55,_1',,300,
from their carriage by the Countess of Gainsbomxijs of Prioct:
Waiting ; the Hon. Misses Murray and Kerr, eine °slog et
in Waiting ; Lord George Lennox, Lord in Wo. Or,' to 11
Albert ; Colonel Berkeley Drummend,Grelgalustri
ilhe
the Queen ; and the Hon. Colonel Grey,
visit t°
Majesty. . 0a ° 0,
Her Royal Highness the Duchess:of he Pavaiece• A if,
illustriovs visitors soon after their arrival at the hsasseheseee
The Queen and Prince Albert rode out on '',,d die • ,
Nor AP . ve,'
terday morning, attended by theflon. Miss Ate si
afsrss s
ries in Waiting. the sdei, 04
Her Majesty the Queen.DOMlger, etended bY /este berg s
of Ormond, Lady in Waiting visited the ag„eel! ce Al 0
partook of a dejeune with he; Majesty and roll
the frisk
Or
the Prince of Leiningen. n'ed bY i Ors $t
The Queen and Prince Albert, ace/OV° f GI ni
it''lelf
of iseiningen, and attended by the Countess o_oites •Sh
and the Hon. Colonel Grey, visited the FloTorsiogme, 4 ,
the gardens in the Regent's-park yestersleY,lucsobrZsl '
Royal Highnesses the Deke and Duchess 0' the 0
• et a 101
companied ,by the Princess Mary, also visl
is the
hibition. erdal risi
The Royal Family were taken airings Ye't este 41
included i' heßhopslaee Yie rtiS
Gardens of Buckinham Palace.
Royal Highness the c „„rnoure, sci 4,,
Highnesses the Duke and Duchess de IN. j,o, ores
Maria Dawson, La Baronne de FinguerlicBl de ~,
her
l Dinner party at( Bunckuinhgeboareofl4..eBl,l,thoedioesiorelo
, op r
~,,g Piee
Lennox, Colonel Sir George Couper, AA.
and Captain Francis Seymour. , does
The Band of the Grenadier Guards attendeu
ittibser•
and performed the following pieces ,-- Welts'
Pot Pourri " Der Reiss IDerch die

Polonoise—Lindpaintner.
PWoallkzae,r,,,,‘Etieesßtinheeinn.,Lautidieirm"a--r.u,7etri.ra .
tr. er•
olif:
ai3tri sir.
reJ ;" 30° re
His Royal Highness Prince Albert L1°014130 oo
tet, ti'de,
Callcott with an interview at Buckinghou l'a,,and3r,,teot 0
when several of the new patent transposidocej,(ro theulbstidoto
~ Die Fahnen Wacht, _
s
Her Royal 1113
gllrtvotycicaiohlu,Hsbiyiygihhaniesaeßssesodbyytaollll4!;Arhenseseb,
i,5,
es,oroprood?,Aft,
named the Royal Albert Pianoforte. airing in 00
Her Majesty the Queen Dowager took an nsch
• a the '
yesterday in a landau. ;site 0j bi
Her Royal Highness the Duchess
Highness the Duchess of gent 1 ,tOO4A the
of Gloucester yesterday at Gloucester House'itige, sooo' st
Lady Augusta Cadogan and Baron gnefieb;inetier Y,tcrt°
Theth- -mi Quickpnitsrttiernducmteo,
,wShntaitess: 4
of Carahr u, hooteroyti,e3
lA,erchbishop of York with her company Ittis Grace.' (lose
r residence in Grosvenor-square- , II; nt 1005`ciir• 'fie(
withtthh NobleewAaidttheeep,
ui
ut
deputation
Chancelloror eGncert rooorr sgmeoo
tff
Carr,l theiteh
e, Ca:oakin:c4-oehfrile tigiorrue.feiN:As
rnyinitiesc,
so,
itertE:gto I got
oe:tp: 001,,:
(Ai
0,1
(rie 0t t
residence in Downing-street. vi§hoP joy, WO'
The Right Rev. Dr. Fleming Catholic '' ,ter
..
land), had an interview with Lord StanleY, the WI: o,ich
Colonial-office. The Rev. Dr. Collier an"esterclar ieet ofice
ham had also interviews with his Lordships 30 intolo p
A deputation from the Dublin Bank ha,sidoca , oso
' Sir Robert Peel yesterday, at his official re hfori;,s,
ing-street. so the f 1l
The Governor of the Bank of Engl,t_nancellor °f
O 1
of the Excise had interviews with the 1,14" Ser
chequer yesterday. 11tt PK
TIIR HISTORY
strSeciort,t7NOto:hhnevoieier has left big residers /
cor 0
01, '0
---------- CAT 4.)‹ cri
(Second and Cheaper Edition, with ,earn{
ascots(
~0o!
are not at all surprised (says tbe -L'arse all? tto;recl
Gazette) that this work should, in the c° • one ° qii. tli°
This is ms • 1
ha •
N e reached a second edition. .-, . fe dint , eol, , jp,
or MATlGAJETioustratiiO3-jfihel„,o
stirring narratives of facts in domestic 11 „le, in"„ eA, 1 e 3
for many years. Most of the in ns rL, 'oo ~
• cidel3ts ' ,t liVl'Ve' ti
vivid recollection of hundrecLs of Pet's% gtfiCt / ttiefrotl.
wich and its neighbourhood. Til°llg erfal t",iiie b lieO
fact, the adventures related arc so p.ovf,,rest is ‘,..oooet'
is worth a hundred romances. Its 107 sole ociirPf lee
enhanced by the names a the characte_;yaret Ca,tolit, 0000 !)I
still living, being correctly given. Matrq. Cobutect, os, I'
some time in the service of Dlr. and
er dcser.vertketts;o4
wich, by.whose kindness she was
intevrector °f Ivhicil ,ll'er
their sons, the Rev. Richard Cohho.,-, --01,005,,s te int
Suffolk, is the author or editor of these 1,. in
bill laic
very ably produced from original papers .
Possession. 0+
:-.- - I,ooi' .
13.1RTHS• r OOP ,ii 3'
On the Ist inst ,at the Willows, re' 00`
1 'll
William Woodhouse Secretan,_of a sol;i3lo,teat ,
On the Ist most., at Heath Lodge, 0°
David Powell, Esq., of a daughter.
..siClio',ol.
arlififilE/Atn,_353),, Brits' ;
On the 28th ult., at the British 11-:11. daeon
Rev. C. R. Bradley, M.A., to Serab, ,
late J. Friend, Esq., Denmark-hill, SurreY•

t
. - 046
Col'ltlisiSe°'
LIEN.
On the 4th inst., at his house at l'airfi'lea; 6, Vl'
°Charles Haultain R.N K•Il &c. author CI , I Ilii
.- Cal).t'll,ol,o
,-- „(fett t to
BENesaB:vtnnryaotLtlhfctieol,set.3"lst ult.,' at"Yar.m.o.ntb Pw/orroli" i's 08'
Tt =
lPman, tate. of the 2d Ceylon Regiment, 1:1,000 dot
On the 31st 1 'lee W
~
iihyoi.upat.r,k,aatgl:trio7ntague-p
.. i
of
the
ot
lote •
Itter
pa
loefttih'nestl.4,tShalr.aolottßoVercr 4: widow,
Mr. J.
Ist inst., at Great Marlosr, Sault./ th°
J. Cheshire, of Newington, SurreY•

__________
Lo.,:nTdoon ,l'of
'ools'
--- „riptbo 1 an- al
:Prin.t.cd and Pnoll..b;-licdl‘s-`o`; Ottice'6oo'
q ,
~.. 112, Strand. Printer, at T/ ,0 too
' “ande in the Precinct di the SeYoil
Middlesex, Thursday, June 5, 1154%