Star.
London, England, 1830-02-23 00:00:00

thinking, that for the future soldiers might be contented with
lower pensions, and for a greater length of service. He could
' never onderstand why such a difference in respect of pensions
s'w uld exist between the army and the navy. One word mote
y bud been told that the passing of the Catholic relief bill would
tflect saving in our military establishment : but this promise
had net hetn realized. He knew that very little reduction could be
ttiected in our military force while we retained so many colonies.
Sat Why should we retain so many ? Nothing would be more wise
:tun to hive up the lonian Islands.
Mr. 3IABEKLY said, that if the finance committee had been
re.appolnted, this subject would have been properly Investigated,
at d the house would never have come to such votes as those to
'shin it came on the last evening. They could now only make oh-
strvat:ots upon the estimates,—they could not examine them. He
coat rsltd that 'nothing could be more indefensible than to call upon
the country to pay the East India Company for 20,000 men. Great
saving might also be made in the mode of paying general officers,
' and that without reducing their pay one sixpence, which he was not
I...xious to do. It was, however, of no use to make any statements
opcn the subject, because some gallant officer opposite would get
tip and contradict them, and no argument could be effectual in the
teeth cf a majority.
Mr. iIU3IE could not but feel surprised at seeing the utter reek-
teem s% of that house to the cries of distress which came from all
parts of the country. He was satisfied that there could be no relief
anless they reduced the military establishments. Was this a time
to keep up an army of 31,000 troops, with 9,000 artillery, and
*OOO seamen, when the people were almost starving? It was
almost useless for an individual to attempt to stern the current
of corruption which flowed so strong in that house. He (Mr. H.)
did not speak to any member of that house, no matter on which side
he sat, who did not admit that our establishments were too large,
and that reductions must be made. But they all voted against any
reductions. He asked why they persisted in talking upon the sub-
ject and complaining, and at the same time did all in their
power to prevent a remedy ? They would do anything but vote on
the subject, and at the same time every one of them would say that
there must be a reduction of dies. Out of the house, where they
had no power, they continued to make outcries respecting the dis-
tress prevailing throughout- the country ; but in the house, where
they bad the power, they refused to sanction any measure by their
votes which could at all relieve the country.—.(bear, hear.) Did
not this in some degree support the opinion that they rather came
there to serve themselves than to promote the interests of the coun-
try ? What restrained the Sultan in the exercise of his despotic
power ? Dread of the people. And he would ask, was there no cor-
responding feeling on the part of the ministry of this country ?
The hon. member for Kent (Sir E. Knstchbull) had said there
were two remedies for the existing evils ; the first was, to bring
prices up to the level of taxation, as his majesty's ministers had
expressed their determination, in which they should have his sup.
port, not to alter the standard of currency. The alternative was
reduction in the army expenditure. (Hear.) Out of 658 repre-
sentatives of the people who sat in that house ninety-three in-
dividuals were found who gave their opinions and votes that the
force ought not to be reduced. The people of the Netherlands
stopped the supplies of government until they were brought to
a sense of their duty. The king and the ministry met the wishes
of the people ; and could he persuade that house to adopt the
same example, and a measure of that nature was adopted in a
former bombe f commons, some beneficial effects might be ex-
pected. It would place ministers on a permanent footing, because'
the people would, on finding tthefr interests and feelings con.
suited, be induced to give the ministers their support, instead,. as
now, of relying, as they do, upon the influence of a few magnates
of the land. hat is the use of the house of Parliament if, with

such an attorney-general as was now In office, they dare not speak
their sentiments-? (Hear.) It was not the smallest benefit they
derived by sitting there that the Attorney-general had not the power
to bring them to account within those walls for uttering their semi.
silents. What was the situation of the country ? Every load, every
incurnbrance, on the people had been increasing; and if a man
spoke his opinion out of that house he was brought up by the at.
torney-general, in obedience to the commands of the cabinet, or the
Duke of Wellington,who is the cabinet. The situation of the people is
dreadful. Persons were daily dying in the streets of starvation. If
the state of the parishes over the kingdom was to be looked into,
-distress would be' found to cover the land. The time, in his opi.
nion, was not far distant when he perceived their laying on the last
load would rouse the spirit of the nation to obtain redress; and when
that spirit was roused be should exult in it, he should rejoice in see.
ing it, as a means of affording themselves relief. The ministry
would then be brought to a sense of their duty. At present they
were dead to all reason and humanity, and would remain so as long
as they had a House of Commons supporting them in their measures.
The government of this country is,as far as the people were concerned,
a despotic government. They had no adequate representation in
Parliament, and which they ought to have. How long this
system was to last, he would put it to bon. members, if they could
place their hands on their hearts and say, ought to last ? What they
wet e called upon to do was to offer opposition to the vote before the
house— -an opposition despaired of by many individuals both in that
house and out of it; but he would continue to oppose every vote to
the last, and, although he might be beaten again and again, he
would go on. Experiment was one thing—success was another.—
Why were not the few reductions on the military staff now offered,
and admitted by government to be necessary, made 15 years ago ?
He thought that the house was in the situation he had described it
—that it was brought into disrepute with the country ; and, though
he did not wish to use any unparliamentary language, still, he could
not help stating it as his opinion that such was the case. A great
deal had been said about the public press, and the attacks out of
that house on ministers, and so forth; but he would say the man
that, when he is confident he iii acting right, cannot stand a few
paper bullets ought not to place himself in the situation of
being attacked ; and could it be believed that a minister,
backed by most of the wealth and power of the country, should be
so fearful of such attacks ? In any country, however despotic, the
people possessed the power of complaining against their oppressors,
but here the people are told they shall not complain. The country
bad arrived at a crisis, and, if the distress were not relieved, the
people would co-operate, and the pressure would be so strong
against the government that they would wrest relief from their
hands, and do themselves justice. He should probably be told
that the language he used was inflammatory : but what else could
the people do ? When every other mode fails—when representations
petitions, the most distressing picture of misery—when all fail,
this Is the course that ought to be resorted to. He had warned
his majesty's ministers of the consequences of continuing the enor-
mous drain on the country, and they had a right to expect the re-
action, as they had neglected his warning. He had expected ano.
the question to occupy the attention of the house, and begged
pardon for not having been at his post when the vote first came be.
fore them. He did not are whether he opposed it to full or empty
benches; if his opposition was unavailing the people would be
found at length disposed to take matters into their own hands. He
would call upon the people to attend; to, their own interests. He
would satisfy the house that the money proposed to grant was too
much, and would put it to them whether, if the number of troops
was not to be diminished, the pay should be continued at the
present rate ? (Hear, hear.) There were at this time
14,000 men known as household guards, consisting of thirty.
eight troops, life guards, cavalry and infantry ; but the house
was not perhaps aware that there was a difference in' their rate of
payment from the other troops. By a return laid upon the table in
conformity to a motion of that house it would be found that in the
year 1828 the life guards cost 32,0001. averaging for every man
74g. 4s. Ild. without his horse ; and with his horse the annual cost
exceeded that of a clerk at 1501. a-year. Every dragoon costs 581.
every foot guard costs 341. and every private of infante) 311. Taking
the whole of the estimates as made by the right hon. and gallant
secretary at war, he would ask the house what was the situation in
which they were placed ? The gallant secretary had stated to the
house that there was no more household troops now than there had
been in 1792. He was unwilling to contradict any official
statement without having documents to refer to, but from
a return which had been laid before the finance committee,
dated the 27th March, 1828, he found that the numbers
of rank and file, of non-commissioned officers, and of com-
missioned officers, was, as compared with the year 1822 and subse-
quent years, as follows :—ln 1792 the royal horse guards in number
were 878 ;In 1822, 1,144, being not quite double. The number
of the guards in 1792 was 3,200 ; 1822, it had increased to 5,104.
The cavalry had swelled since 1792 from 4,294 to 6,01". What
foundation the right hon. and gallant secretary had for hij statement,
therefore, he was at a loss to know, for the total of these troops ex-
hibited a very different result to that which he (Sir H. Hardin.)
had stated. The number in 1792 amounted to 441.000 men, whilst
in 1822 they were no less than 88,000, and as the estimates now
stood, 81,000, nearly double the number that they were at the p-
ried referred to by the right honourable and gallant secretary. He
therefore asked the house to look at the amount of the sums they
were called upon' to vote for the support of these troops,
which was not within 50140004 of the estimates even of the year
1822. The country was not in a condition to vote so much for the
sat of these troops when it was considered that the cavalry war",
fur all titer purposes of relieving the rnlments on gasp
at the eslotalso. He outde these statements, at the risk if
befog .tedious ; but before the salmi* were paced he was*
ask ibe house to "mining into the causes why. the pay of die
snipe Nam raised formerly, whether lavas tact in consetworn •i take
high vim of provision, and whether that reason who% Held
good at the proem day. The finance committee ought * Mee

•

gone into that question, and as the evidence was before the
house he :would invest them to refer to the volume before
they came to. t detaininatten to pass such• enormous votes.
The house might rcci*ect that pay of the common soldier from
1797 to 1808 was eigliMence a day. The high prices of 1800 oc-
casioned government -14 c raise, the pay to one shilling, (at present
every private cost thbteen pence a day,) but, if reference were made
to the causes of that increase, they would be found to have ceased.
The noble visceunt (Palmerston), when secretary at war, on being
asked by the finance committee whether there would be any incon-
venience in reducing the pay of the men, replied that there would
not, for government bad nine different rates of payment, and that
there was not a company in the army, in which there was not varia-
tions in the amount of pay, according to the length of each man's
service. If no means were taken to lessen the expense of the army
he could not hope to effect any reduction. It might be said
that a saving of twopence a day was too little to be made a
sassier of argument ; but then look at what the noble viscount had.
stated would be the result. No less a sum than 240,0001. would
be saved to the country. The noble viscount had stated that every
year there were about 12,000 men dratted into the army, and, sup-
posing every one of these was paid only at the old rate of Be!. a day,
the fist year the change commenced there would have been 40,000 f
saved ; the next year 80,00014 and so on until the whole army
was reduced to the former level. Ile, therefore submitted to the
house whether they would keep the pay of therefor,
army at a rate
Which was increased purposely to meet as emergency that no
longer existed. The house was also aware that the half-pay of
officers was Increased in order to meet the high prices of provi.
alone in 1807. Every grade received some addition, which
ought now to be reduced. At the present moment, for every
commission that became vacant there were 100 candidates,
with pressing interest, endeavouring to obtain it ; and he could not
but consider it to be very improvident In ministers to continue the.
increased pay at a period when the causes for its increase no longer
existed. He never could speak of the half.pay without referring to
the shameful proceeding that took place two years ago, when all the
old officers were invited and induced to sell out in order that their
commissions might he possessed by younger men, and their pen.
stone consequently continued at the charge of the country for twelve
or fourteen years longer. The reasons then urged in debates,
namely, that the army wanted men, and the navy wanted men, as
longer existed. There was not that
ceased,cotition cow that had
dennerly existed. The causes hadbut the effects re.
gained ; and these were imperative on the house to consider.
heihre they voted the supply. He would recommend to the
house to reduce the most useless portion of the troops. The infan.
try were required for the relief of the troops in the colonies, but
the cavalry were never required for that service ; they might serve
to swell the parade of pomp, but for any real service they performed
he was at a loss to know. The rate of expense which the army cost
Ithis country was such as could be borne by no state, however pros-
perous; nor, in the utmost plentitude of power and wealth, would
say kingdom dream of going beyond the present state of things in
this. The noble viscount (Palmerston), when at the head of the
war department, had taken credit for the regularity with which
the details .of the expenditure were kept and brought before the
house ; but he would ask him why there was no account of
the expenses of the household troops ? There was no auditor
of those accounts, nor were there any presented for audit r the
expenditure rested with the officers. He had had a paper
sent him by an o •; cer who had formerly been in the Blues,
requesting him to ask why a quartermaster, at Bs. a day, was kept
for each troop ? Was it proper that such a rate of expenditure
lima be maintained ? He did not know the fact; but, wring the
right hon. and gallant Secretary in his place, he would ask him if
it were so ; and also whether, when they, retired from the service,
they continued to naive their full pay of Bs. a day ? If that was
the scale upon which superannuations were going on, the efforts he
might mit for reduction would be of little avail. He would ask
the house whether, when a reduction of seven thousand men was
proposed, they would think it necessary to keep up the re-
cruiting eatablkhment, at a cost of 4C,0001. a year? There were
on that establishment in England six inspecting field officers, five
lieutenant-colonels, one major, seven adjutants, six paymasters, firs
staff surgeons, and other officers in proportion, costing, as he had
said, a sum of 46,0004 in the fifteenth year of peace, whilstin 1792
the cost bad not exceeded 5,0001. per annum. It was not fair to
bring forward an estimate for the army of three millions, whilst such
an item as the above formed part of the amount. The same de-
partment in Ireland was on an equal scale of extravagance
with three inspecting field officers, three adjutants, and the
rest in proportion—(hear, hear.) These establishments might be
dispensed with, and two or three depots formed which would
answer equally well all the purposes. He now came to an item
which, however necessary It might once have been deemed, would
now, he considered, bear reduction. He alluded to the table that is
kept at St. James's for the offices, of the guards, at the expense of
60001 a year. As things became cheaper he had hoped that the
expense of this table would certainly have received a propor.
donate reduction, or have been dispensed with altogether.—
Another charge to which he had very strong objections
was 8,5001- set down in the estimates as compensation money for
the officers of the guards for their perquisites, of which they had
been deprived. He thought the Commons of England ought not to
vote a sum like that in the fifteenth year of peace for perquisites,
which, however justly they might have been when originally claimed
and allowed, were not intended to be continued. If his advice were
followed it would be to recommend the house by stopping the sup-
plies, to force the government to accede to the wishes of
people of England. He would for the present content himself
with asking the ministry to reduce the estimates of the army to the
standard of 1822 and 1823, if they would not go to those of 1792.
The house had voted for eighty-one thousand men but the corn-
mitts had notzet voted the supplies for those troops, and he saw
no other way to force the ministers to reduce the number of troops
except by reducing the money for their support. lie would, there.
fore, move that the amount of the estimates be reduced from
3,001,5331. to 2,550,0001. The hon. member concluded by observing
that he had not a doubt but the right hon. and gallant secrectary at
war would be able to give the committee a satisfactory answer to
the questions he had put respecting the pay of the army.
On the amendment being put from the chair,
Mr. PEEL said he had no doubt but his right hon. friend the
Secretary at War would be enabled to give the commit-
tee a satisfactory explanation with respect to the details am.
prised in the latter part of the speech which had just hum
delivered by the honourable member for Montrose. But in the
preceding part of that speech the honourable member bad in.
dulged in some observations of a very different nature, which he
could not listen to without emotion and astonishment, as they
were of a character such as had been never before uttered, within
his recollection, in that independent and. honourable assembly.
When he heard the extraordinary language employed on this ma.
sion by that honourable gentleman, he could not help thinking that
the speaker stood before them in the uneasy character of a disap.
pointed prophet, who desired to compensate for his inconsiderate
declaration, that he expected no reduction whatever from the pre•
sent ministry. He now found that the prodigal ministry, so. vita.
pained, had made reductions to such a considerable amount as to
COW him with confusion at the discovery, and sought to regain his
usual complacency in the manner they had that night witnessed.
In this awkward attempt to conceal the failure of hiagromtics,
he had, however, expressed himself in terms which honour.
able member, he felt soured, would in cooler moments regret. As
to the estimates against which he now directed such a vehement
opposition, he ought surely to call to mind that they were lower than
in the year 1804, and might have had the candour to acknowledge
the subsequent reductions. Indeed, comparing the whole amount of
the present estimates, Including extracedtewtles and all the ether
items of expenditure, he had himself no hesitation in pronouncing
these to be less than those of 1794. But, said the hon. gent. why
not reduce the estimates to the state in which they stood in 1822
This triumphant question could be readily answered, by stating for
the information of the querist, that the estimates then under consi.
, duration were lower than the estimates of 1822 by at least 150,0001.
—The honourable gentleman admitted that he had been absent,
forsooth. at the commencement of the debate, as he supposed that
the hours would have been occupied by the discussion of another
motion which stood amongst the notices for that diy, and which, it
was understood, would have taken precedence. But wherefore had
the hon. gentleman advisedly absented himself on such an occasion,
aware, as he must necessarily have been, that the motion referred to
was no less condemnatory of ministers than his own? (Hear.)
What could have been his reason for an absence so inopportune, if
be really believed government, in truth, guilty of the untheftiness
a profligacy which their opponents had Imputed to them ?
Did he mean to wave the arguments of both sides, and betake
self to his post at the fag end the debate, only for the deliberate'
purpose aiming the condemnation of his majesty's advisers, with.
out hearing a syllable of their defence ?—( Hear, hear.) Such a
course of conduct, he submitted, was scarcely accordant with can-
dour and fair dealing. But the hon. gentleman did rot stop here,
for he took upon hint to impute corrupt motives—art that, too. in
no very niggardly terms—to the majority who had voted in support
of government on yriday.—(Hear.) This invidious and most un-
uusdfiable assumption he deprecated as equally unbecoming and
ntrue. Many gentlemen who voted with ministers on pits division
alluded to were generally adverse se government, era. wary in.
divklual who heard him well knew end I gab leadsmen,
although they bad the misfortune to glair friar thelanow,al6
membee roe Mintroit, was in all items= so oonalsatilisint
independent as himself. (Hier, hear.) it see liOnntol
too couch far soy member of that house, not only: to sat
condemn thelenduot obsess infitO asperse them eidinaln-,-
to 'barge "them with corrupt interested motives,—to dearibe th'em
as actuated by unworthy personal views of aggeandieemleni, when

there in the open exercise of a public duty (Hear, hear.) He, it
appears, would propose a reduction of 6,000 men, and so compute
it at 78,000 instead of 81,000, whilst others would leave it at
81,000. Now it was rather hard that for such a difference of
opinion, imputations of so foul a character should be cut on the
motives of those who in common with the honourable member
availed themselveti of the privilege of judging for themselves.—
These .votes he contended, were as honestly given as any which had
ever emanated from opposition, being influenced neither by a de-
sire that relatives should continue in the receipt of public pay, or by
any other personal interest whatever. Such was the uncourteoub
conduct of the honourable gentleman to the members of the House
of Commons, and it were well if he had been content with depreciating
and vilifying his opponents within doors. But a part of his speech,
he lamented to perceive, was addressed to another class of the
community and evidently uttered in a spirit little calculated to
elevate the speaker in the opinion of the rational and dispas-
sionate. The hon. gent. had made an appeal intended to operate
without the doors of that house; he had actually made an
appeal to the physical strength of the country, under circum-
stances which should have induced him to suppose that it might
not fall entirely ineffectual from his lips ;...under circumstances,
moreover, which reflected the deepest discredit on the source from
whence those perilous counsels had originated--(hear, hear.) Was
it, he fearlessly asked, the pm of a wise or humane man to play
with such instruments ?—(heat.) How could that hon. member
reconcile to his conscience this endeavour to incite a population
which he described as in distress, and even starving, to rebel-
lion, for his inflammatory language amounted to nothing short of
that deplorable extreme ? This was truly bold advice which had
flowed so freely from the honourable gentleman, but how had he
put it? Wu he himself willing to encounter the dangers *Met be
was so forward to excite ? did he intend to participate in the spirit
which he so valiantly invoked ? No, far from it. His exhortation
was conducted in a very different tone, and might rather be para.
phrased in such language as the following—" I who instigate you
to rebellion—l who invite you to take up arms, am myself safe
from the penalties of treason, and not even the Attorney-Orneral
can lay hold on me, sheltered as I stand behind the shield of my
privileges"—{Cheers.) This, it must be acknowledged, was not the
language of the honourable baronet who represented Westmin-
ster. That gentleman—be his counsel what it might had the
manliness to take upon himself the entire responsibility, and aban-
don the screen of Parliamentary privilege, by stating that he would
abide by his opinions within doors or without, and publish what he
had said, avowing himself the author. (Hear, hear.) This was
at least frank, candid, and straightforward; but the honourable
member for Montrose was content to wrap himself round with his
privilege as a member of Parliament, most unfeignedly disclaim.
nog participation in such chivalry. Blinisters, he could assure the
committee, deeply lamented the distresses of the people, and sym.
pathiud in their sufferings, sympathised with them the
more on account of their moderation and forbearance under
the pressure of calamity : but what was the counsel of the member
of Montrose ? Don't be moderate, don't be temperate—have re.
course to arms I But will the bon. gentleman assert himself the
champion of those whom be thus addresses—will he put himself at
their Oh, no I he will stand upon his privilege, but adds
that he will be glad to hear of their resistance. hue he confessed,
were not the exact words employed by the hon. member, but he had
expressed himself to exactly the same effect in substance.
Mr, HUME, as we understood him, disavowed the inference of
the right hon. secretary, but repeated that he was not inclined to re-
tract a syllable of what he had said.
Mr. PEEL professed himself unable to understand what the
honourable member had intended to convey, if his interpretation
was erroneous. He bad certainly stated that when ministers,
as in the late instance, were capable of procuring a corrupt
majority, no other resource remained for the people except an
appeal to arms. (Hear, hear, hear.) Language such as this was,
in his opinion, open to no inference but one. But if that address
to the passions of a suffering people should be answered by their
raising the standard of rebellion, what alternative, he de.
mended, would remain for the government but that of meeting
it with prompt, powerful, and successful resistance ? In that
event, he apprehended, the hon. member could hardly reeon.
cite to his own conscience his declaration from his place in par-
liament, that he should rejoice to hear of such resistance. (Hear,
hear hear.) In the present excited state of his feelings be
found himself quite unable to enter into the details of the sub-
ject before the committee, and would accordingly leave that task to
his right hon. friend. But he could not conclude without ex-
pressing his belief that the hon. gentleman would find little sup.
port In his inflammatory appeal to the people, who, he was
sure, even under present adverse circumstances, were too gene.
rally conscious of the advantages of their government and con-
stitution to listen for a moment to those dangerous and intern.
perate suggestions. Nevertheless, if any portion of the popula.
lion, however inconsiderable, should prove so infatuated and mis-
guided as to hearken to that pernicious counsellor, and undertake
hopeless, a ruinous, and he would add, a wicked resistance, he
could not envy the responsibility of him who had excited it. (Hear.)
Colonel DAVIES said he had always beard that a total loss of
temper indicated a consciousness of a defective cause, and could not
refrain from applying the observation to the right hon. gentleman,
who had made such on unwarrantable attack upon him ; for he un-
derstood that he also was included in the animadversions directed
against the hon. member behind him. In justification of what he
before said, be could only repeat that he had argued as the people
of England would argue, when
they heard of the majority who had
opposed themselves to any inquiry into the present distressed state
of the country.
Mr. PEEL disclaimed having made the slightest allusion to the
speech of the gallant collar, as he was not present on the occasion
referred to, and might not have remembered it even if he were.
(Laughter.)
Colonel DAVIES proceeded to state his opinion that few of the
majority in question had heard the arguments adduced, or were ac-
quainted with the merits of the subject. He certainly, for one, felt
no Inclination to spirit up the suffering people to acts of violence,
but could not help saying that no one would be able to predict what
might happen if things went on, as at present, from bad to verse.

Sir 11. HARDINGE said, he should not be induced to swerve
from the comic which be had already ptescribed for himself, or,
Influenced by the inflammatory invectives of the hon. member for
Montrose, to submit any measure which would operate harshly on
the soldier. The suggestion for lowering their pay was repugnant,
be bad no doubt, to the better feelings of the committee, and its
wisdom in point of polity was at least very dubious. Participating
fully in the indignation, which the speech alluded to had excited in
the mind of his tight hon. friend, he should proceed to refute
as soodeely. as be could the misrepresentations advanced in that
:rciThe boo. gentleman was mistaken when he described
pla.y of the soldier as having been 'messed since former
times. In the year 1795, the pay with an increase of 2d. per diem
bad been settled by Mr. Windham, since which the allowance of
beer formerly granted was commuted to a penny additional But
no one could pretend to maintain that such commutation was em vir-
tual increase of pay, which on the whole had remained on the foot.
ing established in the reign of Queen Anne. It had been also said
that the pay of the officers was too high, and that of the Guards
awn especially was deprecated. But he appealed. to any member
present whether the subalterns of the Guarus might not be said
to give their services to the public gratuitously. (Hear. hear.)
In fact, many around him• gave higher wages to their servants out
of livery than 7a. lOd. a day, which was their quota, and did, not
include many of the necessary expenses requisite to keeping up
the ap aof a gentleman. They were, moreover, liable to go
abrsasad subject to the other contigencies of a military life. No
of the Has bed seen more active service than the guards during
the last thirty years. They had been in Egypt, in both Americas,
sod the Painsula. In the first regiment of the guards, in width,
he and a gallant colonel opposite had had the honour to sal%
not less than 28,000 men had passed through the ranks within
that period. the pay in proportion was at the same time lower
than in the time of Charlet 11. Where them were formerly Ns
battalions, there were now only 56. They were likewise roadap,
seined at a cheaper :ate than in 1792, *fibers were at peen*
fewer officers and more men. As to the manner in which titiy
:Langtheir duty in the metropolis he believed it gave general
:Lon, and he had no doubt that the honourable menthe" for
Westminster would testify that the very best understanding pub- ,
sisted between them and the inhabitants. Theeavalry likewise hod'
been stigmatized by the hon gentleman, who had observed that they'
were more numerous now than in 1792. But he begged leave se
remind him that there were fewer regiments now than at that pe
and the expense was to be tothnotrd according to tire officers
not the number of men. There were then 180 rank and file, and
number now was 300. In France the proportion of soldiers .to
cavalry was at present as 4 to 1. while in this country they
bore a proportion of 9 to 1. Thus the ptoportion of cavalry
to infantry on tbe continent was double that of ours. The table,of
the Guards, at a cost of 6,0001. per annum, was referred to • ilse
hon. member as another hem of extravagance. But he t 4
some years ago having had a similar discussion on this very
ject, when be stated that the subalterns of seven baualions of toe,
Guards cost the country leas than seven battalions of the Line
that after all there was a difference of one half the, espouse In their
favour. • It was observed, amongst other details, that the re-
leashing department was higher now than last yea g but the foot
' could be *ally accpstated for. Them was a plan agitated, by which
soldiers would be allowed to receive their dietharge 14 years after
awing the service, and be thus enabled to leave the army
at 33 years of atai in theprime of life. He felt convinced,. thnl
thato the difficulty of getting out was a principal cause of the pa
las disgust against entering the army, and It was as well to meal
objection as to Ovate a saving in the pendomlist that the step he r
of Was taken. MO:segos in the number of 2,000 were go
sot as fausirly, at 201. but at 101. 71. or gL itecoraft
_to Ase
Of service. The charge of 04,11 colonial and lonian Winds air
been alluded to, he trusted be mid *defy the 'unalnittes on

point, by merely stating that there was a saving effected in this de-
partment of 100,0001. since 1822. A tew other Items would go far
towards showing generally the extent of the reductions. In the
staff, the saving since 1812 amounted to 20,3541. in the miseella.
aeons department, comprising clerks' salaries, &c. it was 25,0521.
less than in 1822: in the medical department it ten 11.9361.
in the military college it was 6,0051. in the paymaster-general's
office it was 56,0001. in the full pay of retired officers it was 41,000/.
in the half.pay it was 149,9511. and in the foreign half-pay 19,000/.
The commutation between the old and half-price commissions would
induce a saving of 10,0001. a year. Then there were other consi-
derable reductions. In 1815 the number of officers had been 18,403,
and in 1830 it wu only 14,910; thus 3,495 on the half.pay had
died in the interval. Much had been said about diminishing our
military force ; but if some catastrophe such as the massacre of the
whites, were to take place in our colonies, he apprehended that go-
vernment would put forward but a sorry justification if they could
only allege in excuse that they had made such a reduction in con.
fortuity with the advice of the honourable member for Montrose.
He was decidedly opposed to those suggestions, and hoped that mem-
bers would not be deterred from doing their duty by virulence and
invective.

Mr. J. DENISON professed a sincere wish to economize, but
felt at the same time the necessity of suitably maintaining our es-
tablishments. In the colonies a very considerable saving, in his opi-
nion, might be made, consistently with their safe keeping and tit,
proper dignity of the mother country.

Lord ALTHORP, in reply to some observations of the tight
hoa and gallant secretary at war, could not admit that the present
military establishment was necessary for the country ; neither could
he comae in the principle of his comparison between the British and
foreign relative number of cavalry and infantry. The right hon.
gentleman had said that the proportion in foreign countries was to
have four infantry to one cavalry soldier, while the British was
nine of the former to one of the latter • but the condition of these
countries was entirely different, and therefore the principle of the
comparison was inapplicable. Indeed, he should any that the
whole calculation of these estimates seems to assume that England
would in future wars be obliged to maintain on the continent the
same numerous army,—a circumstance which he could by no means
anticipate. '(Hear.) With respect to the amendment of his hon.
friend he must say, that were he pressed to a division, he could
not, for want of sufficient information as to the details, vote for it.
He had indeed no objection, as he had already testified by his vote,
to concur in a reduction of 5,000 men, but as the effect of the pre.
sent amendment would be to reduce one-fifth of the whole military
force, it was impossible, for him to make up his mind to such :t
sweeping diminution, without further information upon all the
details. • •

Mr. MONCK admitted, that with only a reduction of 1,000,0001.
in the expenditure, the Chancellor of the Exchequer could not take
off taxes ; but were the saving extended to 3,000,000!. which he
thought it might, then the public might have the benefit of
such a system of economy, by an immediate reduction of a por
don of their burdens.

Mr. HUBIE in reply said, It gave him no concern to hear an as.
sertion that his statements were unfounded, because he had in his
possession the authentic means by official papers to sustain them.
iitconclusions from facts might be liable to error, but his numeri-
cal calculations were too strong to be shaken. The hon. and gal-
lant secretary had denied that the horse guards and life guards had
at present a greater number of officers than they had in 1792, when
the fact was, that in thatlyear their number was 73, while in 1828
it was 104.

Sir HENRY HARDINGE.-1 never said a word of the royal
horse guards, but confined myself to the life.guards.

Mr. lIU3IE said, that then his whole argument had been mis-
taken, for he had spoken of both descriptions of corps, and the paper
which he now handed over to the hon. secretary, signed by Lord
Palmerston, would prove the fact he had stated. (This paper
was handed across the table to Sir Henry Hardinge, but not being
immediately returned, Mr Hume excited some laughter by saying,
in a loud tone, '• Give me back my paper.") The royal horse and
life guards amounted in 1792 to 678 rank and file, while in 1928
they were 1144. Each man too, cost 751. a year, without his horse,
whilst the infantry cost only 311. He complained in the strongest
terms of the great increase of late years in the estimates of the army
pay, which in 1822 and 1823 only averaged 2,550,0001 while at
present It was 3,000,0001. and he then enumerated the various
savings in the colonies which might at once be accomplished by
proper military reductions. It was unfair for hon. members oppo-
site to insinuate that he had stigmatized the guards as unfit soldiers
—he bad never cast such a reflection upon them, because he knew
they had always done their duty, and were ever ready for service.
He had never indeed denied the efficiency as soldiers of any of the
corps, but he had shown, he thought, that the extent of force kept
up was unnecessary for the country, and had entailed a great burden
upon the people. Then the right honourable gentleman (Mr. Peel)
had attacked him, and said he wished to excite the country to rebel,
going In at the same time upon tb. whet. greatlan of the. thaetrine of
nun-resistance. He denied that any Government could exist upon
the docaines laid down by the right boa. gentleman; or that any
thing which had fallen from him could encourage rebellion.
" Which," continued Mr. H. " is it, I or the government who are
Istimulating resistance—l who warn them of their impending danger,
lor they who precipitate themselves into it, by pressing with an iron
hand upon a suffering people? If a starving population adders; the
government, and say we cannot bear your pressure of taxation. 0
you are mistaken, replies the right hou. gentleman, I know
better, for you can bear it well. Who is the person, then, I
ask, who promotes rebellion,—l who wish to see justice done to
those who are suffering, or the government who have overburthened
the people until their patience can no,longer endure the load. When
the right hon. gent. talks in this manner he mistakes the effect for
the cause. I wish to ward off uproar by timely concession, and he
to promote it by withholding just economy. I stand here, thank
God it is here I stand, when 1 say these things, for I see the At-
torney-General just entering the house : and I know that if I re-
peated my. words out of doors, be would have me in his flags in
another place, where I could expect no justice from him. But I
will take care of myself out of doors, and that I am not to be
caught by the law officers. (Hear, hear.) A little prudence is.
they say, worth a good deal of valour, and is it for practising it tha:
1 am to be stigmatised as a cowardly rebel? It is not I, but the
minister, whose acts tend to rouse the people to the exercise of phy-
sical force ; and I have no hesitation in saying that 1 shall be ready
to repeat every word which has drawn down upon me animadver.
sions of the bon. gent. opposite.' I have no fear of being made teapoc.
sable for the consequences. That responsibility rests on the head of
the government, and not of the individual who frankly warns them
of their danger." The hon. member proceeded to remind the house.
that although• he had acceded on Friday night to a corsiderable
limitation of his amendment, that concession was unattended by
any good effect. He now therefore fell back upon his own original
views, and would persevere in proposing the larger reduction
and it was not for ministers but the house to deeide on the case
which he had made out. Let the llouse of Commons only ray
this diminution must take, place, and the business was done; fur
he remembered when they had on a former occasion shown that
spirit, the ministers were five weeks afterwards obliged to yield. ar.d
reduce 18,000 men although they had at first as stoutly as they did
at present, insist tie larger number must be maintained. Ordy
knock off there 10,000 men, and in 48 hours the ministers' story
would be alteted, and the retrenchment admitted without impairing
the efficacy of a:proper establishment. He hoped that it ne had
said any thing width was calculated to exceed the views of his hor.
friends, they would throw it overboard, and not let the. common
cause suffer fan= any supposed zeal or indiscretion on his part.
Mr. PEEL.—I wish, Sir. to explain the observations which I
made a short time ago, and 1 beg you to remember, that when I
made them I said I felt entirely aatisfied that the hon. member would
'himself, in his cooler moments. condemn and disavow the strorg ex-
pressions into the use of which he had been for an instant betrayed
and I think that expectation has been realised •by the explanation
which he has'given, thereby showing I did not form a false estimate
of the hon. member's feelings. The expressions which caught my
ear, and at the moment excited my animadversion, were, that the
vote of this -house on Friday night would justify the people in an
appeal to physical force, and that the hon. member, so far from re-
gretting, would rejoice at that result—a meaning which would. I
knew, be disavowed by him upon reflection. 1 beg to say that I
never used such an expression as "cowardly rebel." I should be
sorry, under any circumatances, to employ an offensive phrase to
any hon. member who may happen to differ from my view of publ:s
affairs.

committee then divided.—
Foe Mr. ilume4s amendment, 27—Against it, 150.
Majority in favour of the original resolution, 132.
£100,347 for the expense of staff officers for the current year was
the next resolution.
Mr. 111.131 E objected to the vote as far exceedirg the netnews,
military peace establishment of the country. particularly as it
stood in 1799. There- was the adjutant.gencurs department
that !inventively called for the pruning knife of retrenchment, its
,cost having neatly trebled nce efore the beinning of th
French war. la 1807 not lesssi b than 8001. per annumg was added soe
-pay of the adjutant.general, on the pretext that he had 267 corps
to visit officially, so that his salary, which formerly was fixed at
1.200 L pelt SODOM new amounted to 3,1004 Thenthere Was the
Irish ititt iffine4l.llll•Parginontidll inereemsavagant in itsexpen-
diture t the English, the former having not less than nine adjutant.
full --v. and the lair ' a number which ha
Reductiou should
of Cited
mho CO.
Inalefain
member pro-
m* for the ex.
though 10,0001.
- %Vat, was

;ofd Rentals en full piy. and the latter but a numier
M
I
hat hie 'ahan to hil.reduard at kilt one half. &dumb
pogu.. nhadnkrtbe swill at the legion •Islands the. Cape
tit We WIPPe-th•tilhilidgust.C4llagt :4ew Nand& Ways onarflts I
t spot, looks, width, Indeed, lie saw no reamm why they did got
flood, their own military establiahmeats. The honourable Melt
r pan Pineda5P11,.4910244141111, 41,41.1*Ligt&M be .4teptell fix
baying pane of stew °lnters, an oteunt with, be said, though
nt that leo than that proposed by the right hen. Secretary at