The Sun.
London, England, 1829-02-20 00:00:00

le Throne. While I am upon this subject I
must make an observation upon what just now fell from
my Noble and Learned Friend (Lord Eldon) upon the sup-
posed bargain that is to be made upon this subject. I can
assure him, that when I came to the consideration of the
whole question, it appeared to me absolutely impossible
either for the Government or for the Parliament to take
it under its observation, with a view to the repeal of the
disabilities (on which my opinion was formed on the state
of the case itself ), without,- in the first instance, and as
the first step, putting an end to the existence of this Asso-
ciation. I have not only made no bargain, but I have
not even held a conversation with any man in which it
was contemplated to purchase concession of the claims by
suppression of the Association.—(Hear.)—l propose the
Bill before you as a measure necessarily preliminary even to
entering upon the discussion of the claims. In fact, in
my opinion, any other made of proceeding would be in-
consistent with the dignity of the Crown, and with the ho-
nour and character of Parliament. Moreover, I conceive
this mode of proceeding absolutely necessary in order
is reconcile the subsequent measure I shall propose to
many good men in this country, who have viewed not only
with distrust, but with dismay, the violence of the proceed-
ings of the Catholic Association. I also entreat your
Lordships to reflect, that we have the eyes of all Europe
upon us, and that we must do nothing that can give any
man the slightest ground to believe that we are making any
Sacrifice, excepting on the ground of policyand expediency.
(Hear, hear.) Before I proceed to detail to your Lord-
Ships, as far as lies in my power, the nature of the mea-
sure I propose fur your adoption for the suppression of the
Catholic Association, I will call your attention for a few
momentsto what has been hitherto done, in order to effect
the same object both with respect to this and other Asso-
ciations. I believe as far back as the year 1757 it was
usual for what was called a Catholic Committee to be in
existence in Ireland, but tile practice seems to have fallen
so much into disuse, that in 1791 there is reason to be-
lieve, from an historical document recently discovered, that
the minis of the Members of this Committee were not
known. It seldom consisted of more than six members,
Lenclihavein 1791 their- names were not
sfi either to the tioVernment or to other persons. This
.t.;:dnatititiCe has certainly grown to a size of much more im•
Strtance since that date, and various attempts, at different
periods, were made, both by prosecutions at common law,
and by incidental Acts of Parliament, to prevent the meet-
ing of what was now called the Association, In 1791 as
well as in 1824, it was not the opinion of the best autho-
rities that the Association was illegal, either in its form or
in its Constitution. The Government, however, was fully
sensible of the inconvenience of its existence, and in 1825
ti lasts was passed by Parliament for its suppression. This
Act, I believe, was drawn by some of the ablest men and
Most eminent lawyers that had appeared for a great number
of years, two of whom have now seats in this House ; my
Noble Friend on the cross-bench was also then on the
Woolsack. It proved totally inefficient for any purpose for
which it was designed s and looking at the law as an un-
learned individual, it seems to me extraordinary how it ever
could have. been expected to be effectual. It permitted
Sotitteett meetings of the Association ; and besides these
rotteen meetings there were six subjects which they
blight discuss;—.l. Religions Worship. 2. Education.
8* Science. 4. Manufactures. 5. Commerce. And 6.
Adtitulture. Upon these topics a meeting might at
any time be held without a siolation of the provisions
of the Statute.. Under these circumstances, as it appears
to me, it would be impossible to carry the law into execu-
tion in any one instance, notwithstanding the persons in-
tended to be dispersed repeatedly and openly declared their
determination to evade it. Ido not blame the Adminis-
tration existing at that time, or the Government of Ire-
land, for not carrying this Act into execution. I know
there were other reasons than those I have already stated
why they could not do this, and those reasons arose out of
the divided state of the Government at that moment—a
division which had pervaded their deliberations in every
question that arose with respect to Ireland. If your Lord-
ships will look at the progress of this question for sonic
time past, you will see the effect of that division. If your
Lordships will look back on what has taken place with re-
ssect to the itornan Catholic Question for a period of some
years up to the present day—if you will look at and exa-
mine the Records of Parliament itself, you will find there
has been a growing opinion in favour of that question from
the time when the discussions on it were begun by the Right
Hon. Gentleman under whose auspices it was first brought
forward, to the present moment. The question was then
Put in the form of a proposition submitted to the two
Houses, calling on them to declare, that they would take the
'object into consideration with a view of removing the
disabilities of the Catholics. If Noble Lords will consider
the opinions of all those Members of bath Houses who have
declared them:mites in favour of such consideration of the
question, notwithstanding they might differ from the Right
Hon. Gentlemen as to the conclusion to which they might
arrive on the question itself—if you will consider these
things, and at the same time remember, that from that
time forward nearly every Gentleman who has come into
parliament from that part of the kingdom has taken up
the question favourably for the Catholics, and that a great
Catholic influence has been growing up .in Ireland, you
will see some reason for the difficulties in which the Go-
vernment has been placed. For many years, for reasons
which it is not necessary now to enter upon—for
many years, I say, this question was never failed to
Ire touched upon whenever an opportunity was offered.
From the year 1811 to the present time, that has
been the case; and from the year 1811, a divided Go-
vernment has existed—and since then this question has
been gaining ground. I will not stay now to enter into
a detail of the mode in which that divided Government
had hitherto acted upon this question ; but I will state
that no discussion, whether the question regarded legisla-
tion generally, or the amendment of the criminal law, or
the tithes, was ever suffered to go by without the introdue-
tino of this great question. It did not signify what was
the subject of discussion, this question always came under
consideration in the course of it—this great question, the
`lose of which I hope we are now approaching. I say,
therefore, that I should be highly to blame if I were to cast
any imputation on the Officers of the Government for not
carrying into complete execution the law of 1825. It was
not their fault, but it was owing to circumstances which
attended the existence of a divided Government. With

.ddreea

froi

rt*pect to the Association, and the law by which it was
endeavoured to put down and suppress that Association,
that law failed under the circumstances I have alluded to.
I will not state what are the projects which we proposed to
effect that object ; but I will say of the measures now be-
fore the House, that we du not pretend that these measures
are ordinary measures that ought to be adopted on every
n;c43lon• On the contrary, we say that they are extraor-
42arY measures, to execute which extraordinary means
have been devised, and that we have great reason to hope
that they
will never occur again. We do not propose them
as precedents to be adopted, but as precedents to be
",,°lded in future, and we hope that they will only be ap-
It'h"ed under those particular circumstances which now call
lir into existence. I will now state something of the
decialtrsetilfs By the first clause the Catholic Association is
Lord e'
for ever abolished ; by the subsequent clauses the
or
AaLteutenant has the power of declaring any Association
ta d' "'nbly illegal, and of appointing Magistrates to proceed
IsPerse that Association or Assembly. These Magistrates
Magistrates
be in any number, but not less than two. These
have the power to order the assembly to dis-
Pente; and if they do not disperse within a quarter oan
hour, the persons not dispersing are liable to be brouf ght
before two Magistrates, and on conviction to be impri-
-Bnned for a time specified. There are further provisions
Which go to deprive any Association of the power of collect-
ing- tnoney Such are the provisions of this Bill, and I
!rust it will not be liable to the observation which has been
7:lade'esiith. respect to the Act of 1825—namely, that there
14 a road open through it wide enough to admit a coach and
1.
°°!.. I hope that if there be any inadvertenciea in its
Preparation they may be remedied ; for my Noble Friend
"nn made that observation has admitted that if this Bill
ra Plitsed, it is desirable it should be passed in such a man-
ner As to render it effectual. I shall not trouble your
Lordships with any further observations, but shall simply
111010 that this Bill be now read a second time.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE had but few obser-
vations to address to their Lordships on this subject. He
r°44l leave the present measure to appeal on its own merits
Liathe approbation of Parliament. It did nut meet with
entire approval, even in its present state; but he was
c° °tent to make no serious opposition to it, as he looked
„
"Pon it but as part of that great measure which was about
° be proposed to Parliament, and which he looked to as the
'4l measure of relief to Ireland. He considered that mea-
14re as the most important, as it went to the root of the
"11; and without that being done, the circumstances which
Were stated as those that rendered the present Bill necessary
Would still continue ; while, if this Act alone was passed
vtithout being accompanied by that other important measure,
there would be an end to the liberties of Ireland. He was
c,(l)neinced that as long as the laws of exclusion continued,
"ht Bill would be unequal to destroy the Association, which
1145 founded on the sentiment of irritation, created by long
exclusion from their rights. As long as these excluding
lan', continued a Bill like this would be ineffectual ; for
less they would suppress those hearthurnings out of which
ine Association had arisen—unless, indeed, they would
d
thel'traY the best feelings that exalt human nature—
ferment lately existing in Ireland would still continue.
1411 th! dioabilitieo rumaincda the Wad vi uniou