The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-24 00:00:00

Nouse to pledge itself to adhere to these principles, and to
oppose thi3 mction which had for its object the entire recon-
struction ef the pri party of the Church in Ireland. The lien.
Member who proposed it stated his views as to the reeen-
struetior tn °years ago. He said that he would give 70,00/.
to the Protestant Church Establishment, 700,0001. to the
Presbyterian; and Wesleyans in Ireland, and that he would
give the remainder to the Roman Catholics. That was the
principle which was now under their consideration. It was a
question of opinion, and, if they granted 26,000/. out of the
Church property this year, they would have to
grant a great deal more next year. The question
Was, whether they were to reconstruct the disposal of the
Property in several ways, and to confiscate the property
of the Established Church in Ireland. Were they justified in
making any such appropriation? Were they standing there
as legislators looking bark and viewing all the circumstances
connected with the Union, and ti-e understanding entered
Into to continue the support of that Church at that time, justi-
ed in consenting to such an appropriation? It was impossible
for any person to read the words of the articles of the Union
without feeling sail fled that it would be a breach of a most
solemn compact to confiscate the property of the Church of
Ireland. They must consider the circumstances under which
the Union was t assed, and ask themselves whether the Par-
liaments both in Ireland and England did not give additional
security to the maintenance of the Established Church. With
reference to the Nlaynooth Bill it was stated that
the Emancipation Act could not have pa sed if the proper ty
of the Established Church in Ireland was not understood to
remain untouched. If they adopted this princip'e what effect
*mild it have upon every other description of property ? Let
them look to the forfeited estates in Ireland, allowing that
those holding them became originally possessed by acts of vio-
lence and spoliation, were they justified now in going back and
looking at their titles and shaking the foundation of property
of this description ? If the Hon. Gentleman would deal in this
manner with church property, he would affect all other pro-
perty to the same extent.—( Hear, hear.) There were for
instance man Acts of Parliament which might be held equally
unjust. Let them look at the contract existing? He did not
but
in favour of the Bill on the grounds of that contract,
put as there was an understanding they were not justified in
that
it, and they were doubly fortified in using
argument with reference to the Established
Church, which was a solemn endowment in the
terms
of the Act of Union. He believed it involved the
itation of repudiation, and the National Debt.—( Hear.)
,!eY might say, with regard to the latter, that they would de-
et te
- Pay it, as they had nothing to do with it, it was entirely
act of their forefathers. But no, the feeling of the people
of this country was too deeply involved for them to take such a
course, they believed that it was a national compact, and he
'Ted that the property of the Church of Ireland might he
eonsidered in the same light. Such a course would lower the
allibnrilY of Parliament and shake their confidence in this
country to a great extent. He had the evidence of an Hon.
stated that of that House ( Mr. Blake) on this subject, who
that he considered the Protestant establishment
he
it great link of connexion between the two countries,
b •
eing established by the fundamental laws of the
•realm, and could notbe disturbed without danger to all the bhs
thes which they derived. He ( Sir T. Fremantle) supported
the ,Established Church on higher grounds. He thought it
fe• y of
the State to maintain a religious establishment ;
some rm of Christianity should be maintained by the State,
and should be subject, in some respects, to the control and re-
gelation of the State. The Roman Catholic Church did not
tit had
with these conditions ; the Established Church did, and
lad been connected with the State, and, as a Protestant, he
,011 could not consent to its subversion. He would ask the
l ourable Member (Mr. Ward) what course they
r7e re to take ? Were they to adopt the voluntary .principle,
endow all sects, or should they throw everything in Ireland
't7t.o a state of the greatest possible confusion? The appropria-
tion of 26,000/. from the Church property in Ireland to the
assistance of the Roman Catholics, would be the ground for
renewed applications for a great deal more. They would be
torr,ing a bone of contention, for which they should not cease
e_ and for many years to come. It would create discontent
'iSc! t=oile religious animosity in that country, to an extent to
which it had not been hitherto carried. The contest would
eenOt for power, but for money. What would be the
ling of the Roman Catholics ? They would say that they
got but a miserable instalment.—( Hear, hear.) Would it
satisfactory to the Protestants? While they withheld any-
theung from them, they would consider themselves aggrieved
parties. Nor would those who were agitating for a national
Government be bribed from prosecuting their purpcse, and
made more firm supporters of the British Government by any
concession of this sort 7—( Hear, hear.) The Protestants
Would he
the very much indisposed to continue their attachment to
Union - their best supporters would become in that case,
tierhatm, their most deadly enemies. The Right Hon.
man then then referred to statements made in a work called
b Ireland and its Rulers," which he said appeared to be written
2, gentlenaan well acquainted with the two countries, and in
Establishments
it was remarked that the abolition of the Irish Church
..,t,heablishments would be a heavy blow to the Union.--
Zterl r, hear.) The feeling of the Protestants against such
ie",rappropriation would be as strong in England as
_not:land, which was shown by the many petitions which had
7 ded the table of the House.—( Hear, hear.) It was stated
slat_s tahat the existence of the Established Church in Ireland
sa monstrous insult and injury to the people of Ireland. He
denied_w the possession
such was the feeling there. He wanted to know
'l7 insult to
of property by one particular pasty could be
Isuos'sess:o:o the rest of the community. He must consider the
Individual, of
property, whether by a corporation or a private
Stance that do!. one particular church, as an accidental circum-
stance
who didl notn imply an insult, an injury, or a degradation to
notions were ot possess it. It was quite clear that these
• w en the Roman
tur h entirely removed in the earlier part of this cen-
terfere with te Catholics disclaimed any desire to in-
used lan_guag property of the Established Church, and they
eto that effect n their
to that Honse for relief.petitions when they came
purpose of They used those expressions for the
negativing the possibility of their entertaining the
idea that the possession of
Was an insult or an i • property by the Established Church
inure to them. In MS, in their petitions
they stated that ..they did not repine at their possession or envy
He inclined to think the Protestant Church was justified
ni maintaining its rightsand at the same time he was
equally prepared to admit, that to those rights many duties
Were attached. rhe rant Mto
in the 1; gaynoo
th could not be taken
light of an act of restitution. It was consistent
With tustice, and not in the least at variance with the
t°411137 or 'principle of the Established Church. He there-
retrusted the Honse would support the Government in
carrying the Bill.
Sir WALTER JAMES very much agreed with his Hon_
Fried, who had just sat down, that grave and technical
llePetit/us might be placed against the motion of the Hon.
'ember for Sheffield. If the Hon. Gentleman carried his
Point the House would be going into a Committee
ascertain the Eceesiadical Revenues of the
Irish Church, instead of going into Committee on the
Government Bill. He thoughtalso that there were grave
constitutional objections to the motion of the Hon. Member
for Sheffield. Looking at the importance of the Act of Union,
„,Ret h etould not be classed among the common Acts of Paella-
Zrti.,nie thought it would be insulting the Irish Protestant
extentuu h if they were to go into Committee to ascertain the
power of
vihlYncht its revenues, instead of for considering a
ee'IIuIPIY had for its object the endowment of
.the
College of maynooth
and constitutional •• When he stated that grave technical
tion, he felt objections might be made against the mo-
of the also bound to confess that he thought the subject
Posed, Irish Church must, before many years were
Respectiorle seriously under the consideration of the House.d
*tiring
its, as he did, the faith of that Establishment, andat-
"erYthin creed—devoted, as he was, to its liturgy, and 0
felt it g which ever had or ever would belong to it—he still
one to be the duty of Parliament to take such a step as the
the golrsed by Government. He had been anxious to address
cived seuPon the subject of the Bill, because he had re-
consitmanY serious representations from large bodies of his
aoyeruents' praying him to offer his earnest opposition to the
howeeernerit of the Right Hon. Baronet upon it. He would,
eoa7er, have been ashamed of himself had he given any
ters of
ppnternanee to these representations. All his family had been
Catholic Emancipation, and he thought it was
eesaionut! still to continue favourable to the same spirit of con-
Ponied by an
Pitt intended the Act of Union to be accom •
frieethaA an Act for the payment of the Roman Catholic
nire tr.e.uo. Amonst those who had made representations to
wooldtTn this subject,' there was a body of persons whom he
for th not pass by without expressing his sincere respect
one II:1`°: They were Wesleyan Methodists, than whom no
rise rld done so mueh to 'advance the cause of the Chris-
NVesl When he remembered the fields in which the
eateoeyan Illethodists laboured though perhaps not like the
4,2licpriests, whom they had so often reviled—when he
trenue, inhered that
tat kingdom that, in the mining and colliery villages of this
he always saw the Wesleyan, minister with the
atiel ,u 1 his hand, spreading the truths of Christianity,
to savocating the principles of the Gospel, he felt bound
give h•
eiettr, e Irn his sincere though humble respect.—(Hear,
this ' The practical views which had been taken of
ee,etquestion by many Honourable Gentlemen or at all
of th B,le,''Y the Right Honourable Gentleman the Chancellor
toy ;er;xchequer and the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secre-
Inerely ,Irelandwas, that it was simply a small measure for
anti a grant from 8,0001. to 20,0001. per annum,
kw:lslet Right on. Gentleman the Member for Edinburgh
• seit'd why, if they consented
to pay 8,000/. for wretched-
foc'eui.k! they refuse 26,000/. for comfort and cleanliness.
4leeat• his part, he could. net take so narrow a view of the
Wet °n' He considered it, so far as his fellow-countrymen
and eerneff, a large and conciliatory measure, involving,
• sly to lead to many important results. He wished the
had teU
tote-,
~ at the conciliatory spirit in which the measu: e
eied een received in Ireland—(Cries of " Hear, hear ")
to lookt:heo to say whether it was not more just
than thof •
an as a.e measure rather as one a series of measures
tuld Was ,Ingle measure. It was so looked upon in Ireland,
repeas;;lseo considered by the Cork Southern Reporter, which
herg_teEt the feeling of the principal Catholics in Ireland.
seeeptred the Catholic clergy of Ireland would be willing to
teletatrie additional boon, if it was given them in a spirit of
the °r* and kindness ; bu't then, if that were done, of course
ettestee.esretion came home to him, " Where is the money to
Of ?" Well, then, if it did not come from the people
by hiesatnsd, he was bound to ask himself was he doing justice
Your milow-countrymen by saying to them, " You pay for
tor Cretn claurch on -account of conscientious scruples—you pay
ores "tell also, and now you must pay for another" He
the Inch
in this instance, not only to look to the interests of
rests": Church, but he was bound also to look to the inte-
/easte what his Right Hon. Fr!end the Member for the Uni-
the et °__f Oxford called " the nearer and dearer institutions of
tutu of England," and he cautioned the House not to
They dissenting fellow-countrymen against *!set Church.
Or not do anything which would give a severer blow,
neavier d•
e,ed • iscouragement to that Church, which he be-
ete uo rested upon the affections of the people, and which,
truthful words of Mr. Hallam, "is sustained by, and
d for the people."..--(Hear, hear.) He wished to
this units at,
before he sat down, some of the' religious objections to
Ineasure
gate cap., It was said that it was not their duty to propa-
sth Catholicism • and here he would take the liberty of asking
eeelt Was Catholicism ? There might be error of various kinds,
°: err •
19ith th:r might be so slight or so insignificant compared
en the raany truths which they disseminated with it, that
not
brain some
could not say that his own creed did
%eight b‘aul tome portion of error. Error, on the other hard
so eso false, so abominable, and contain' in it something'
foreeveraet aenti-Christian, that it was their bounden duty to come
aliti.sllt_stid resist it. He did not believe Rome was either
coa`eti tian or idolatrous, and yet his Hon. Friend, in his
e• hence,leelieved Rome to be anti-Christian, and adopted
a,goted expressions in tbe petitions which bad been
lurchof
ainst the Bill. Now although lie saw much in the
Daintr..oae.to deplore, he was far from believing it to
,lanti-Christian Church, for. it was able to pro.
ttte
not truth,, notwithstanding its. many errors. He
ksely to "" any one proposition that was more
nee_ false Church,
nee stn _!'al/ the foundation of his belief altogether, than to
to which our ancestors belonged, taught
'•
: doctrines that it was perfectly impossible for any
the Who belonged
e feet to it to reach salvation. What must be
kora kings of those entlemen who came over to this country
aYneoth College,they when, as advanced towards tla
tiglititele:etlte first thing that met their eyes was a dozen or
!etetial ragamuffins carrying immense placards concerning
oaneotse against the grant to Maynooth—with, on the one
gaunt walls of Westimineter before them, and on
talslee its'Lher
gretbaeteemparatively fillery work of Mr, Barry ? What,
disgusts"a must be their feelings but those of distesto, if not of
for harity
e did not 100kor benevolence of England.—(Chee,e)
theone
Buda or the father • but tatting the whole of them into
/

consideration, he conceived, nes the only way in which he
could explain what occurred to his mind upon the subject. He
looked upon this as one of the most serious questions that
could occupy the attention of Parliament; he conceived that
State policy demanded that it should be carried out, and legis-
lative principles did not forbid it. He had been reading over
some public documents recently upon the subject of the Irish
church, and he had found by them that sums of money, to the
amount of 12,700,0001., had been granted to the Episcopal
Church in Ireland, independent of revenues which the Esta-
blishment had from other sources, within a certain period ;
that the Presbyterians in Ireland had received within the
same period, 8435,0 01. ; but the sum total of the grants made
to ahe Roman Catholics within the same period was only
365,0001., for nothing more nor less than the support
of Maynooth. Well, then, the people of Ireland had heard their
religion abused, and this miserable pittance begrudged them,
and could they in England therefore wonder that the Irish
people should have a feeling of soreness at the injustice done
them, and that that feeling should have spread over the country
from one end to the other ?—( Hear, hear.) He would contend
for it that religion had nothing to do with this question. Reli-
gion did not contradict conscience, though it was founded upon
it. The arguments in its favour might be supernatural, but
they were n t unnatural, or such as should force a Governme t
to an act of injustice. He was much struck, on the first night
of this debate, at what had 'taken place in that House.
He had seen petitions from the Dissenters, and from the
towns and from the counties, some few from the Established
Church party ; and, last of all, came the miserable petition
that had been presented from some place in Ulster.—( Hear,
hear.) But yet, when all that display of bigotry and fanatical
passion had subsided and gone down, then there remained that
still small voice within all, which told them they ought to do
justice, to love mercy, walk humbly—not as Protestant ascend-
ancy men, not as violent bigots—but to walk humbly ha the
sight of the great Creator of the universe.—( Hear, hear. )
Mr. M. GIBSON said that the Hon. Member opposite ap-
peared to have the faculty of seeing further into future results
than the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of her Majesty's
Government. He had said that the day was not far distant
when the Legislature would be compelled to take into consi-
deration the whole question of the Irish Church and Church
property in Ireland, and in that he (Mr. Gibson) fully con-
curred.— (Hear, hear.) He had heard the Right Honour-
able Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland's speech, and he
should say he was surprised at the Right Honourable
Gentleman's doctrines.—( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon.
Gentleman had spokon of the property of the Irish
Church as a thing most sacred—( Hear, hear) —as a thing par-
taking of Divine origin—and, therefore, was never to be
touched.—( Hear, hear.) In fact, the Right Hon. Gentle-
man's argument amounted to this—that if there happened to '
be but one Protestant in the whole of Ireland, still the pro-
perty of the Irish Protestant Church should remain untouched.
—( Hear, hear.) If such were the Right Hon. Gentleman's
argument, he (Mr. M. Gibson) would wish to know how he
would reconcile the transference of the twenty-five per cent.
Church property from the Church to Irish landlords, which
should have gone to a fund for the benefit of the Irish people ?
—( Hear, hear)—or how he could reconcile the taking the
Church cess out of the hands of the Protestant clergyman, and
leaving it to the Ecclesiastical Commissioners to administer?—
(Hear, hear.) With regard to the proposition of his Hon.
Friend, he would say that they must admit the principle that
Maynooth should he endowed, before the House should be
called upon to the consideration of the question as to what
funds that expense should be defrayed from, because it was
only upon those grounds that he considered that the fee-simple
of the property of the Irish Church was ves'ed in
the State.—(Hear, hear.) He had not had an op-
portunity, on the second reading of the Bill, to
state his views upon giving a permanent endowment to May-
nooth ; but he quite agreed with the Hon. Member for Stock-
port, that this was neither a religious nor a theological question,
but a question of education, and that upon those grouuds the
Government were justified in making it.—(Hear, hear.) He
did not think that the Government of a country should inter-
fere in matters of religion in taking such a step, or say that
questions of religion should form a ground for refusal, for that
would be adopting the principle that the religion of a country
should form aground for giving or withholding certain civil ad-
vantages.—(Hear, hear.) He conceived that the State had an
interest in the education of all men. He looked upon the
Roman Catholic priests as men, and therefore they should be
educated.—( Hear, hear, and a laugh.) He would ask, was
not that the logical deduction ? The Government were not
bound to provide the particular plan of training that the people
should undergo. The State had merely to provide the funds,
and, that done, the public had the advantage by the State having
been the means of raising the moral standard of her Majesty's
snbjects. He contended that there was no system of education
which had not religion more or less mixed up with it ; and
therefore, when the public were taxed for education, they were
also taxed for religious instruction.—(Hear, hear.) As to
the proposition for defraying this expense out of the church
property funds, he would say, he did think it a very just ap-
propriation of these funds. The church funds were intended
to be applied to the best uses to which they could be put—the
Government was the party to decide that; but he would say
the very best uses to which they could be put was the advance-
ment of education ; when these were found to be too much
for Protestant purposes, then he could not see why the surplus
should not be appropriated to some useful purpose.—( Hear. )
Hon. Gentlemen opposite who opposed this motion had not
shown that the 'Protestant congregations in Ireland had been
increasing; on the contrary, it was well known that they had
been decreasing ; while, on the other hand, the Roman
Catholic congregations had been, year after year, increasing n
Ireland in a larger ratio than formerly.—(Hear, hear.i )
On these grounds, then, he would say' that State en-
dowments should not be confined to Protestant establishments.
If the House went minutely into this question, they would
find not only that the great majority of the lower classes of the
Irish people were Roman Catholics, but that the great bulk of
the peasantry who were Protestants had a leaning to Catholi-
city. He had heard of one parish in Ireland, in which there
was not one Protestant ; but the Protestant rector, expecting
the visitation of the Bishop, to inquire if such was the Let,
borrowed the Roman Catholic congregation from the parish
priest, and thus, when the Bishop arrived, he saw a very
thronged attendance of Protestants in the church.—(Laugh-
ter.) He believed that no part of Europe or of the civilised
world could present such an anomaly as the Established
Church in Ireland ; and, do what they would to the contrary,
until some sweeping means were adopted in rtgard to it, it
would ever attach to this country as a badge of reproach and
disgrace.—(Hear.) He would say this Irish question had not
yet been solved. The Right Hon. Baronet opposite had ad-
mitted the difficulty of it : hut he (Mr. Gibson) would say
that it never would be, until all ascendancy were done
away with, for there should be no ascendancy of any
sort.—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") He did not think
that the State should grant to Ireland this favour, not from
fear, but from a strong conviction that the Irish people had a
claim to be placed upon terms of perfect equality with any
other portion of the inhabitants of the British nation. —( Hear,
hear.) Nothing but equality of civil and religious rights would
do ; and if that course were adopted, then would there be a real
amalgamation of the Irish and the English people, and both he
a happy and contented people.—( Cheers. )
Sir J. WALSH said it would appear to him that the Hon.
Member opposite was an enemy to all Church Establishments ;
but he ( Sir J. Walsh), being an advocate for'such Establish-
ments, as most necessary to the happiness of mankind, he
would oppose the motion of the Hon. Member for Sheffield,
because it would strike a blow at the Established Church, both
in this country and Ireland. The Honourable Member for
Sheffield had stated certain grounds, with which he
(Sir J. Walsh) fully concurred, though he could
not concur in his conclusions.—( Hear.) He admitted
that three of the provinces of Ireland contained a dense popu-
lation, the majority of whom were Roman Catholics, but there
were a great number of Protestants in those districts who
possessed wealth and intelligence, and were, therefore, a most
important part of the population. He raid this, in order to
prevent the existence of the impression that there was no
religion in Ireland but Roman Catholic. From what he heard
during those debates, it would appear to him as if there could
be nothing gained on one side which was not taken from the
other. A most unfortunate state of things existed in Ireland,
destructive of the internal repose and tranquillity of the
country, which it was the duty of the Government
to remedy, as far as they could. —(Hear, hear.) So
long as there was a feeling in Ireland that
she was treated with injustice and humiliation, so long
would a feeling of irritation and estrangement towards this
country exist. The Government of this country ought, there-
fore, to apply a remedy to those real evils under which Ireland
was suffering; but that was not to he at the expense of others;
and at the present juncture he thought that the motion of the
Hon. Member for Sheffield, was ill-timed, for it might do
much to neutralise the good effects of the measure proposed by
her Majesty's Government. He admitted that the Church of
Ireland was in an anomalous position—( Hear, hear )
the state of Ireland was quite as anomalous as that of the
Church. He thought it was much better frankly to accept
the boon proposed by her Majesty's Government, than
to excite feelings of irritation in Ireland. Nothing would
have a more injurious effect in Ireland than arty concessions
that would increase the danger of the Protestant Church in that
country. If the present motion were carried, so far from
tranquillising Ireland, it would have a directly opposite effect.
He hoped that the measure of her Majesty's Government re-
specting Maynooth would be followed up by others tending to
soothe the Catholic population, but he trusted that the Right
Hon. Baronet would consider that the honour and faith of the
country were pledged to maintain in its integrity
the Protestant Church of Ireland, and he trusted
that he would not, in any plans which he might have in view
for the amelioration of Ireland and the Catholic Church, do
any thing which would have the slightest tendency to render
less efficient or less secure the Established Church in that
country.—( Hear. )
Mr. MACAULAY said he was desirous of catching the
Speaker's eye, because
.it so happened that he had never yet
had an opportunity of fully declaring his views on the im-
portant question now before the House. He was not in the
country at the time when this subject was before discussed in
Parliament, when it had almost thrown every other question
into the shade—which convulsed the whole political world—
which divided the administration of Lord Grey, and overthrew
the short-lived administration of the Bight Hon. Baronet.—
( Hear, hear.) The motion of his Hon. Friend the
Member for Sheffield went to the whole question. It
was true he only asked, indeed, for 26,0001. from the
Irish Churcn, but he understood his motion to go to the whole
question. It appeared to him to resemble an ejectment from a
single farm, for the purpose of trying the title to the whole
property.—(Cheers.) He did not conceive that any
on persowhn
could reasonably vote for his Hon. Friend's propositio
was tiSSt prepared to go further.—( Hear, hear.) And, on the
other hand, !se conceived that every Gentleman who opposed his
Hon. Friend's proposition, must be understood to do so with the
feeling that the whole of the property of the Irssh Church ought
to continue exclusively in Protestant hands.—( Hear, hear. )
The question then was, whether the Established Church was
an institution which ought or ought not to be maintained ? He
should have thought it a t ruism—thoogis the discussion upon
the subject led him to think tit
that
as
thone e which
had not occurred to any Gentleman on opposite
side of the House who had spoken upon it—that when
the Legislature was going to decide whether a great
institution ought or ought not to be maintained, the
first thing to inquire into was, whether it were a good or a bad
institution. His own opinion was, that the Irish Chuich was
a bad institution—that it was a very bad institution. —( sine 1,
Hear,
hear.) That was his deliberate opinion, long
enter
confirmed by much observation and reflection, and an opinion
he thought he could support by most unanswerable arguraentors.
He was not new speaking rhetorically, or with exagg
argue
did he intend, nor vela it his wish to excite any angry feelings,
atiore n
but it was his deliberate opinion, that of all institutions
Ireland
exist-
ing in the civilised world, the EstaLlished Church in
Cheers)—and
was the most utterly absurd and indefensible—(
he wished fair no better proof of that than the course which had
been always taiosn by its advocates—by the course which had
been taken by its advocaiaz that night.—( Hear, hear.) He
would only ask any Gentleman u he had ever heard
any person argue the question on its ineva,;,.-- (Hear,
hear.) lie had heard, indeed, of the articles of
the union, which ohight not to be violated. Well,
but there wore articles of the onion quite as important as the
article relating to the Established Chuseloessifikse
la re-
gulated the relative number of Members which were to a:t ip
that House as Irish Members. But those articles had been
. aliereji 147 that House, and upon the motion too of the Noble
Lord the Secietasy fur the Colonies, with the full consent of

bite Right Hon. Baronet opposite ( Sir J. Graham), with the
full consent of many Gentlemen in her Majesty's Council, and
whatever Hon. Gentlemen may thick of the Reform Bill, it
was one of those points upon which the two parties were at
issue. lie would venture to say that, from first to last,
if there was a single article of the union which
ought to be considered more fundamental and inviolable than
another, it was that which settledathe comparative numbers of
the two parties to the measure who were to sit in that House.
He therefore treated the objection to the article of the
union as frivolous. But even if the article of the union was
all that the defenders of the Established Church asserted for
it, did that prove the Established Church to be a good thing ?
—( Hear, hear.) Then he heard something about the Catholic
oath. Well, supposing even that that oath ought to be taken
in the spirit in which many persons considered it should, did
that prove that the Established Church in &land was a good
thiag ?—( Hear, hear.) When he was told that Roman Ca-
tholic laymen and prelates, when they were struggling to be
relieved from the disabilities which pressed upon them, had no
objection to see the Protestant Church continue, could any
proof be derived from that, that the Protestant Established
Church was best for that country ? ( Hear, hear. )
Then there were objections to the form of the motion. It
was said that was an inconvenient time to move the question.
These were merely accidental objections; but were there any
arguments to show that this was a good institution? Then
again—but he was almost ashamed to notice such an argument
—the Right Hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland—
he was surprised that the Right Hon. Gentleman should have
made use of it—said " that if you adopted this motion you
would unsettle the security of all landed property." Did not
the Right Hon. Gentleman see the great difference between
property in which some person had a vested interest, and pro-
perty in which no party had a vested interest ?—( Hear, hear. )
The Right Hon. Gentleman might as well have said that in 1817,
when that House resolved prospectively to abolish the offices of
auditor and teller of the Exchequer, that they were going to
unsettle all the vested and funded property in the country,
unless when Lord Granville dial an auditor of the Exchequer
was appointed to succeed him to do nothing, or when Lord Camden
died that some person should be appointed as teller to do no-
thing.—(Cheers and laughter.) There was, then, a wide dis-
tinction between the two cases—a distinction which he felt con-
fident the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir Robert Peel)
at least would fully recognize. But, after all, what were they
doing but shifting and evading the question ? Had they heard
in that House one word as to treating this subject in the only
way in which it ought to be treated by any statesmanr—
( Hear, hear.) Had they ever heard any person say
the Established Church was a good institution ? Did it answer
any one of the purposes for which an established church ought
to be instituted? Had they ever heard that? Had they heard it,
or anything of the kind to-night? Did any'divine, did any
speculative writer, did any person who ever wrote in defence of
an established church, put it upon any grounds in which the
Church of Ireland, as it now existed, could be supported ?
( Hear, hear.) Why, there was not a single ground on which
the defenders of an established church supported such an insti-
tution, which was not a satire on the Established Church of Ire-
land. There was not a single authority for an established church,
come from where it might, whether from Protestant or Catholic,
Conservative or Liberal, from a divine of the Church of Eng-
land, or a divine of the Church of Scotland, from which it
could not be shown that the Irish Church was so great an
abuse that it could hardly be conceived bow it existed.—
( Hear, hear.) Was anything to be found like it in the whole
world ? Was there an instance to be found except Ireland,
where the Church of the minority was established in opposi-
tion to the great mass of the people? Such a case was only to
be found amongst themselves. From the White Sea
to the Mediterranean, from the Volga to the
Atlantic, there was no where an instance of a great
establishment being given to a small minority. From
Mormonism in America to Mahomedanism in Asia, it was not
to be found. In some places there was the voluntary system, in
several places there was a church connected with the State, in
other places there were churches receiving pay which were not
in connexion with the State, but in no place except Ireland did
the church of the minority enjoy its establishment. In Eng-
land, the Established Church was the Church of the majority.
In Scotland, the Estab'ished Church was the Church of the
majority. He did riot know whether it was so now, but, at all
events, it was not the Established Church of a small minority.
In their colonies they had done much for religion, but even
those dependencies of the British Crown where the people were
attached to obscene and bloody superstitions, they did not
establish a church for the minority. Whoever thought of
parcelling out Bengal and the Carnatic into curacies ? There
was only one country in the whole world which presented the
spectacle of a population of eight millions of people endowing
an Established Church for eight hundred thouaand.—(Cheers.)
He had heard it argued at other times, and that night, that
the prosperity and intelligence of the country belonged to those
who professed the Protestant faith. That went directly the
other way. He could conceive only two cases in which pro-
perty ought to prevail over numbers. One of those cases was
where the object of the institution was the preservation -of
property—for instance, in a railway company the man who had
five hundred shares ought reasonably to have more votes than five
persons who had hut one share each. The other case was
where you wished to have a qualification to jndge of a man's
intellect. As a test of the intelligence of men, sueh a qualifi-
cation was indeed the only test that could be applied in certain
cases. That was the reason, he apprehended, why, in certain
eases which required a higher intelligence and greater judg-
ment, they selected special jurors in the place of the ordinary
common jurors ; but none of these cases applied to a Church
Establishment.—( Cheers. ) So far from that being the fact,
when you institute a church, you ought not to think of one
ricliman being equal to five poor men, but of (me poor. man
being equal to five rich men—(Hear, hear)—for, in the first
place, the public ordinances of religion were of more import-
ance to a poor man than a rich man. He did not deny the im-
portance of those ordinances to men of all ranks ; but the cir-
cumstances in which the rich man was placed—his being able
to have recourse to the best works on the subject of divinity,
being able to held communion with the minds of such men as
Barrow, Leighton, and Hooker, rendered those ordinances of less
importance to him than to the poor man. The poor man had no
such books, and even if he had, he had no time to read them, and
they would be of no more advantage to him than to a Hottentot.
The difficulty was, in the case of the poor man who had no
other food than potatoes for himself and family, but was yet
obliged to sell his pig in order to pay the religious teacher.—
( Hear, hear.) He was in favour of an Established Church
himself. He thought there were great evils in the voluntary
system. If not prepared to take the same view of the volun.
tary system as many of his Hon. Friends—it was not for the
sake of Lords and Baronets, wealthy merchants and country
gentlemen—they would have whatever religious teaching they
wanted—they would have churches, cathedrals, organs, com-
munion plate, and all that conferred dignity and pomp on re-
ligious worship—it was not such as these he pitied, but the
poor man who, out of his hard earnings, was obliged to pay fis.
a year to the Church.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.")
Take the alternative. Would they have him go
without religious instruction altogether? That wou'd
be a great calamity, not only to himself but to society. Was
he, then, to pay for it ? All must say it would be a great hard-
ship from an income so moderate.—(l-fear, hear.) Was it to be
derived from charity ? That-was a most precarious and most
humiliating mode of supporting a Church. He thought it was
most desirable that throughout the country, from one end to
the other, even in its remotest parts, there should be houses
of worship where the great body of the people could be reli-
giously instructed, and would have a priesthood to which they
could have ready access, not as a matter of favour, but as a mat-
ter of right.—(Hear, hear.) But did that apply to the
Church of Ireland? In arguing about the English
Church, the advocates of the voluntary system opposed
it, because of the nature of its foundation. They urged
many arguments against it, whilst its advocates urged
many in its favour ; but, on the whole, he thought the pre-
ponderance was in favour of the English Church. Bat when
he came to argue against the Church of Ireland, it was
found there was no balance, no counterpoising weights—all
the weights were in the same scale.—( Hear, hear.) All the
arguments which could be used in defending the Church of
England would tell against the Irish Church—against the
church of the few—the church of the wealthy —that church
which, reversing every principle on which a Christian church
ought to be founded, " filled the rich with good things, and
sent the hungry empty away."—(Hear, hear.) But there
was another end which it was urged this Church would
attain. It was admitted that it did not administer instruc-
tion to the great body of the people, but it advanced to an-
other end. What was it ? I was a proselitising church. The
people were not yet Protestant, but the Church would make
them so. At present there were but shepherds, but it was
said the shepherds would find for themselves flocks.
He had heard . that same argument ten or twelve
yeers ago, when a proposal was made to reduce the number of
Irish bishops. The Hon. Gentleman the Member for the
University of Ox ford then made use of a remarkable phrase,
which he well recollected, " We must make allowance for the
expansive force of Protestantism."—( Laughter.) And the
Hon. Gentleman further added that " Bishops may be now
too many, but they will be soon too few." The Noble
Lord the Member for Dorsetshire said the other night, speak •
lug of the missionary character of the Church of Ireland, for
he said that Church had a missionary character, that it was in
such a position as soon to spread the Protestant faith through-
out Munster and Connaught. He must say that if this lan-
guage had been held in the Councils of Queen Elizabeth he
could conceive 'there would be some reason in it—if Sir William
Cecil or Sir Nicholas Bacon were called in to discuss the ques .
tion he could conceive their entertaining such opinions,
and using such terms —they might say " We have
but a few Protestants in Ireland now, but we, who
know how rapidly the Protestant faith spreads
we, who remember when Martin Luther first
began to preach in Wurtemberg, and now see one-half of Eu.
rope embracing Protestant opinions—we, therefore, expect
that Protestantism will be speedily diffused throughout every
part of the sister country, and that it will s3on become the
Church of the people, in fact, as well as in this country.". Such
might have been the sentiments of Cecil and his colleagues,
and they might have been excused for such reasoning, but
when this Church had existed in Ireland from 1560 to 18.157
when they had before them the experience of 285 years, it
seemed incredible to him how gentlemen of ability could hold
such language.—( Hear, hear.) And what could be done for
a church that had not been done for this church? Had it not
been loaded with honours and dignities—had it not been fenced
and protected, up to a late period, even by penal laws—and
as to money, was there ever- -on the face of the
earth a set of rectors who received so much for doing so little
—or a set of bishops and rectors who received half so much
for doing twice as much duty ?-.-.‘ Heir. hear.) And after all
what had they to show: —The most zealous Roman Catho'ic
population on the face of the earth.—( Loud cries of " Hear,
hear.") Where the Protestants were 200 years ago, there
they were still—(Hear, hear.) They had not only failed in
trampling over the domain of the Old Faith, but their business
was to maintain their own pale. The Roman Catholics were
still ten to one against the members of the Established Church.
--(Hear, hear.) Now, he should like to ask Hon. Gentle-
men opposite, whose zeal for Protestantism was so great, to
what could they impute this grand tailure;? If he were to
speak of it as a Roman Catholic might be supposed to do, he
might exclaim, " The divine protection has preserved our
Church from great danger, and the same Pro-
vidence that turned the curses of the Prophet
into blessings, and destroyed the Assyrian host, will render our
Church victorious over all the policy of eminent statesmen."
But what further arguments were used—that the tenets of Pro-
testantism were unknown for a long period to the Catholic
people of Ireland ; but during ten generations of men they had
remained the same. Yet, notwithstanding Scripture and rea-
son were on their side—they had, he repeated, Scripture, rea-
son, and wealth and power on their side, over a naked, destitute,
and oppressed people. The Catholics of Ireland were not
merely lukewarm Catholics—not Catholics merely in name.
Was there any country in Europe in which the Protestant faith
existed, in which Roman Catholic doctrines were so tenaciously
h.nd go generally held as in Ireland? After 300 years they
could boast of little, more than an array of bishops, deacons,
and rectors. But this was the n.1.t4r41 consequence of the
policy which they pursued—it flowed from treating a Church
as the mere machinery of Government, to perform its work and
attain its end without being either loved or hated—just on the
same principle pa the army, or the navy, or the police force,
which was to work on in the Battle manner, whither loved or
hated. The yeomanry in Manchester were disliked, but they
continued their operations, dispersed the populace, and fulfilled
qi
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