The Sun.
London, England, 1842-05-24 00:00:00

BRIDPORT.

Sir J. WALSH gave notice of his intention to
move as an amendment to the motion of the Hon.
Member for Liskeard, in reference to the borough of
Bridport, that the words, " whether bribery has taken
place in that town " be left out.l
POOR-LAWS. '

Mr. ESCOTT gave notice that, on the considera-
tion of the Poor-law Continuance Bill; he should move
that it be lawful for Boards of Guardians
of the poor to grant such relief to poor persons as
they might deem necessary, in their own houses, any
orders of the Poor-law Commissioners notwithstanding.
VOTE BY BALLOT.
Mr. WARD gave notice that on the 16th of June
he should move, that in all future elections of Mem-
bers of Parliament, the votes be taken by the way of
the ballot.
Sir DENHAM NORREYS moved that leave of
absence be given for one month to Mr. French, on
eed to.
account of illness in his famly.7:-Agr

BOROUGH OIL IPSWICH.
Colonel RUSHBROOKE moved that the Speaker
do issue his warrant to the Clerk of the Crown for
making out a new writ for the borough of Ipswich.
Mr. MACKINNON seconded the motion.
Mr. C. W. WYNN said he did not intend to give
any opposition to the motion, but he wished to call
the attention of the House to the Report of the Com-
mittee, which stated that extensive corruption
had prevailed in that borough. He wished to
have that part of the Report read. (It was
accordingly read by the Clerk at the table.)
He wished to call the attention of the House to the
Report, because it appeared to him, that whatever
grounds there might be for the presumption of bri-
bery in this instance, there was not sufficient to jus-
tify the adoption of any measure without further in-
quiry into the matter. It seemed to him that
they overlooked the principal offenders, and wished
to direct their vengeance against the minor offenders.

He was c:'nvinced that if they seemed by their -pro-
ceedings to proclaim impunity to those who received
bribes, as well as to the subo. dinate agents who dis-
tributed them, they would never be able to suppress
bribery.—(Hear.) Unfortunately there was not that
general feeling against the offence which' he could de-
sire to see ;• there was often • as. great a, feel-
ing in favour of the objects of the prosecution as
in favour of the suppression of bribery., In the
Cricklade case, an individual had continued to retain
a high and responsible office after he had been con-
victed of bribery, and no one seemed to look upon him
as discredited by the offence. The Hon. Member
concluded, as we understood, by suggesting that
before the motion was agreed to, the Attorney-General
shOuld be directed to prosecute all the parties who
had been convicted of giving and receiving. bribes.
Sir G. GREY agreed with the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman who had just sat down, in the propriety of not
• opposing the issuing of the writ ; but he hoped that
some alteration in the law with respect to Election
Committees would take place, as he was perfectly
convinced, as at present constituted, they were totally
incompetent fully to inquire into the merits or de-
merits of elections.
Mr. J. PARKER made a few observations that
were totally inaudible in the gallery.
Mr. C. W. WYNNE said that he considered, from
cases which had been decided, that bribery committed
upon the first writ was evidence to be given against.
the parties upon the second writ, and that the two
writs did in fact constitute only one election.
Mr. ESCOTT wished to know, whether persons
who had been found guilty of taking bribes would be
able to vote at the election. If they were, the present
election might be carried by those who were convicted
of corrupt .practices.—(Cheers.)
Mr. HU ME said he had no doubt that the elec-
tion would be carried by the very parties who were
convicted of bribery.—(Laughter.) . They expected
so, at least, and it was upon that account he thought
that the House were rather trifling with the subject.
He thought that a public prosecutor should be
appointed to follow up every instance of bribery tried
before a tribunal competent for that purpose, and that
any person- who took a bribe should be disfranchised.
—(Hear, hear.) That was the way to put an end to
bribery ' • but he never saw the leaders on each side
disposed to put an end to it—(Laughter)----and the
House itself seemed, anxious to support the :system.
In 1822 a Bill had been brought in, in which a test
similar to the .one which had been proposed the other
day by the Honourable Member for Finsbury, had
been introduced, to be taken by Members before
they took their seats. Only twenty-three Members
had voted for that Bill. The heads of both
parties had remained aloof. 'The leaders of
both parties, both Whigs and Tories, seemed
desirous of Making elections as expensive as possi- '
ble ; and, in his opinion, nothing would be done
to put down bribery until they made all parties,
giving or receiving a bribe, incapable of voting
It was useless for Committees to make Reports, un-
less the House .followed them up by some effectual
measures. He thought the writ ought not to issue
for fourteen days, iii order to give time to the Noble
Lord to bring in his Bill for the suppression of bri-
bery. He should move as an amendment that the
issue of the writ be suspended for fourteen day.
Mr. W. Q. STANLEY seconded the amendment.
He thought after the Report of the Committee it
would be absurd to suffer the writ to issue as- a matter
of course. They ought to adopt measures to prevent
those who had been proved guilty of bribery from
voting at the next election.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL thought it would be far
better to adopt measures for the suppression of bri-
bery before issuing the writ than to delay them until
after the writ should have been issued. He could not
agree in the opinion expressed by the Hon. Member
for. Montrose, that the leaders of both parties were
averse to discountenancing bribery. In his
(Lord John Russell's) opinion, both par-
ties suffered much from the expensiveness 'of
.elections consequent upon the practice of bribery.
The Hon. Gentleman seemed to think that they
should agree to a certain declaration to be taken by
the Members of the House ; but, for his part, he was
one of those who had always doubted the efficacy
of such a test. He confessed all that had lately
passed had only tended to confirm him in
the doubt. Different interpretations would
always be put upon such a declaration- by
different individuals. With regard to the' motion
then before the House, it did not appear to him to be
advisable that they should issue the writ in the first
instance.

Sir R. PEEL should protest against the inference
drawn by the Hon. Gentleman—(Hear)—because
parties did not acquiese in his proposal they were not,
therefore, anxious for the suppression of bribery. That
was an unjust imputation, he should say, upon the
party to which he belonged, and he thought that no
other party had suffered more from bribery
than that party with which he coincided in opinion.
He had always declared his readiness to lend himself
to the utmost ofhis power to discountenance a practice
which was undermining the influence of that House
with the country.7---(Hear, hear.) At 'the same time
he should reserve to himself the power of determining
whether any particular plan for the prevention of
the practice was consistent with justice, and
with those principles upon which the law was
administered ; but reserving to himself that discre-
tion, he was ready to admit that the practice was pee
which naturally tended to diminish the authority
of that House. His . Right Hon. Friend bad sug-
gested that the Attorney-General ought to be di-
rected by the House to prosecute any parties against
whom there was a strong case of suspicion that
they were concerned in the offence of bribery.
He was inclined to concur in the suggestion.
He thought, too, that if that motion was made
the issuing of the writ ought in the mean-
time to be suspended. It appeared to him
that the best course would be, that a notice relative
to the inquiry into bribery should be given for an
early day, and that the writ for a new election
ought to be suspended until the motion came on.
He certainly admitted that the writ should not be sus-
pended for a longer period than the necessity of the
case required. They should recollect that the constitu -
ent body had claims as well as they had, and the writ
should only be suspended, until they should see what
further steps might be taken in the matter.
Mr. HU DIE said he had no objection to adopt the
suggestion of the Right Honourable Gentleman.
Ile had not intended to charge any particular indivi-
dual with bribery and corruption. All he had said
was, that those who Were anxious for its suppres-
sion should be ready to adopt some legislative mea-
sure to secure their object.
Mr. ROEBUCK said, it appeared to be the
opinion of both sides of the House that .the
suspension of the writ would be a dangerous
precedent' ; that being the case, he was not going
to press his partiCular views on the House. They
had already suspended the writ for Nottingham,
on the probability of an investigation ; but
he had previously declared that he would not be a
party to any investigation,' unless the Com-
mittee 'was armed with certain powers ; he
would therefore suggest that means be offered 'for
passing the Bill of Indemnity to. Witnesses as soon as
possible.—(From the continued conversation prevailing
in the House the observations of the Hon. Member
were very imperfectly heard.)
After a few words from Sir BROKE VERE,

Mr. WARD reminded the House that there was
another borough in the same predicament as Ipswich,
namely, the borough of Southarr;p:ci. He thought
it would save the time of the House •if they were both
taken into consideration on the 'same day.
Mr. C. WYNN thought that no writs ought to be
suspended one hour beyond the period absolutely neces-
sary. He thought the House assumed a most dangerous
power whenever they protracted the issue of the writ.
He could adduce many instances of the truth of his
position. In the case of Sheffield the inquiry lasted
the whole session. He meant on Thursday next
to propose that the Attorney-General be directed to
to prosecute the parties concerned in bribery at the
election for Tpswich.
THE ECCLESIASTICAL LEASES BILL.

Mr. V. SMITH wished to ask the Right Hon.
Baronet whether, at the next stage of this Bill, he
would consent to its re-committal, or merely bring up
the Report ?
Sir J. GRAHAM said that he did not mean to
consent to the recommittal of the Bill.

The Lunatic Asylum Bill then went through Com-
mittee, and the Report was ordered to be brought up
to-morrow.

Sir E. PEEL moved that the House should resolve
itself into a Committee on the Customs' Act Bill.
BRIBERY AT ELECTIONS BILL.
_ _

Mr. ROEBUCK wished, before that motion was
carried, to ask a question of the Right Hon. Baronet.
A Bill for the prevention of bribery had been brought
up from the other House of Parliament, which with a
few slight alterations would answer all the purposes he
had in view; what he wished to know was, whether
the Right Hon. Baronet would give him some time in
the course of the afternoon to move the second read-
ing of that Bill.
Sir R. PEEL hoped that the Hou. and Learned
Member for Bath, would not be hard-hearted enough
to ask Min to permit the second reading of that Bill,
now that they were about stepping into the tariff.—
(Laughter.) The Hon. Member would probably
have an opportunity late in the evening, of moving
the second reading of the Bill.
Mr. ROEBUCK wished to know whether the
Right Hon. Baronet would have any objection to take
the second reading of the Bill now, reserving any dis-
cussion for Committee?

Sir ROBERT PEEL would have no objec-
tion to the adoption of such a course, but in
according to it, it must not be supposed that he agreed
to the principle of the Bill.
Mr. ROEBUCK trusted that the Right lion. Ba-
ronet would not think him hard-hearted if he asked
permission to move it now.—(Grea laughter.)

;
resold it-
On the Clj
gSuTe sOt t hMSAaCt Tt
ui 1;11:
self into a Committoe oa the Customs Bill,
Major -VIVIAN presented a petition ,froth .(;°ll-
wall praying that such an alteration Might I e made
in the tariff; as would prevent-undue importation.
Sir R. PEEL also presented a petition fit in Corn._
wall, expressing the satisfaction of the petitioners tlt
the reduction of the duty on copper ore.—
(Laughter.)
Mr. MILES presented a petition from Aberdeen
against the proposed alteration in the duty on the
importation of foreign cattle,nrid praying the Hous_
to give to. the agriculturists such protection as would
enable them to compete With the foreigner. the
. Lord ELIOT rose and said, that as he saw
Hon. and Gallant Gentleman opposite (Major Vivian)
f
he wished to say one single word.—(Loud eriei.°
"No, no," in the midst of which the Noble Lord silt-.
down.)
Mr. LAWSON said that as the resolution of which
,!)
he had given notice would interfere with the progre.sthe
of the tariff, and as there was great anxiety on , lq.
part of the country to see the tariff passed, .
he shou
withdraw his motion.
Mr. CALLAGHAN rose to propose the followihg
resolution—" That in- removing the prohibition t°, l
the, importation of any article, there ought nt?
to be charged any duty on the raw.' Materia, r‘
which should not be charged to articles the inan,.ll. ,;
facture thereof, and that so long as living animals L'.`
chargeable with a fixed duty, salted prc'sl;
sions should he chargeable with an equivalen
rate, and not removeable from warehouse
without payment thereof except for exportation,
as they would be, should the clauses referred to in tn
tariff be repealed." (The Honourable Gentlensan
spoke in so low a tone of voice, and amidst so Much,
noise in the House, that he was scarcely audible./
The general opinion of the gentlemen conneett
with the provision-trade in Ireland was, that tils
trade would be annihilated if this portion of the
,
Right Hon. Barunet's measure were carried into effect.
lie had given notice by which he intended that ta'
duty should be hereafter reduced to 4s. instes,t.
of the B§. which was now proposed by the Riga
Honourable Baronet. The provision trade of R
St
eign
now consisted in supplying the colonial part
and would be alttigether ruined by the Pr°
position of the Right Honourable Barone"
Irish provisions were better cured than any otheri
and the country would have reason to regret
anything should he done which would 'tend
the annihilation of the Irish provision trad_e,i
He coecluded by moving the resolution of which he 11''
given notice.
Mr. ROCHE seconded the resolution. $
Mr. GLADSTONE thought the resolution
brought forward rather prematurely. In the case of
.019'
provision curers of Ireland, the' Legislature had-
voured to extend an efficient protection A° them.
Warehousing Act there was a clause to the effect that id
merchantman outward bMmd should bring provisioas
exportation without a bond being, exacted that tit
provisions should be landed at the port of the',/14:
destination. That was well. It protected the Irish Pr.cl,o
vision curer as much as
.possible. It was impossible
suppose that they could gin, their laws such' formtl/4;
stringency as to extend their operation to foreign' pn,.:
In former times this matter was not of so• much colic
quence as at present. About tea' or fifteen years ar,c'
ventured to say that it was unimportant to the Irish iKto
vision merchant whether the clause he had referred
existed or pot. At the present • moment there WftSof
difference of from 21. to 21. 10s. in the prices
Humburgh and Irish beef. The price of Hamb tin
beef at present, was at the lowest, five guineas per tol'o'
the highest 61. The price of Irish beef in the years IS,
and 1837 was 31. per ton ; in 1831 and 1832, It r° ifs
from a. 10s. to 51.; in 1835, the price was 5 guineas;
1837-1838, it rose to 61. So far then as the natural eilPiit
bilities of Ireland wi-re concerned, the merchant in thee
country was able to compete with the foreign own,,(
of meat. In the years of 1839 and 1840, the price 7(,
cured Irish beef rose to 71. per ton,'and in 1841, Om,
15s. If he was rightly informed, the charadter of t",i
Irishprovisions, of which the ' Hon. 'Gentleman pile
spoken with some satisfaction, was at some hazard. .0
was told that in many cases the Irish provisions
suffered from that demand which had draivn off so .
of the Irish cattle to the markets of this eountri;
and which had also drawn off so large a quall,t,l,:e
of the best salt provisions.—(Hear, hear.) Therell.),,, ;
the shipowner was in the position of pa} ins; for all file
ferior article an enhanced price ; and the conseqino
was, that a great deal of fraud and evasion had veto
practised. One method of remedying the evil wsl,o
put an end to the warehousing system as far as provi°,,o
were concerned, and declaring. that no provisions 511_(‘'.
be put into the warehouse without the exaction ("„e
duty. He would exceedingly deprecate such a coli';‘;'
believing as he did, that the warehousing system Osi,s'
great benefit to the country. The principle which'ee
now recognised with respect to provisions was not ail‘,st
one. With respect to almost every article of stort,4-'if
ships required, they did not give to the British, prianl'J
a monopoly of supply of shipping. There Were 0r7,01,
of the Custom-house, by which every article, except 04
provisions, if lying in warehouse, might be delivecor;
without the payment of any dues whatever.—(ll, to;
hear.) The Hon. Gentleman said it would be unjas 4
the Irish merchant that he should be liable to pity adoi.o
on cattle, from which he would get these salted 11
visions. He was afraid, in the first place, that if:totte
House allowed the Irish provision merchant to l'is'ol4l
cattle for the purpose of salting provisions, thief O,OOtY
be introducing a very bad principle ; and, in the s,,'„itctO,
place, the change in the law now proposed did at'sli!
gether take away the protective market from the idalj
provision merchant. There was a demand for salted nte
1 of that description in the coasting trade of this e°'ll:,Atif
Before he sat down, he would say what was the*a 0:
of the case with respect to the bonds he had referreboo
since the passing of the Warehousing Act. The
number of bonds that had passed was 3,126, While rip'
certificates received amounted only to 812. One-")-1.0
therefore, appeared to be effectual, while three-fitnlote,
were not. • So long as Irish provisions were rnee'''rof
, it was not difficult to protect them, but when that pre'
to an extravagant price it was found impossible to
vent foreigners competing with them.
Mr. LABOUCHERE agreed entirely with the
taken by the Right Hon. Gentleman who had justoui.,
down. He held it to he the true policy of this cote
to enable the people to obtain provisions at as eirie
rate as possible. He admitted, with the Right •ijii
Gentleman, that a great revolution, had taken Td,.,64/011
the south of Ireland with respect to the price of
visions. The price had risen there to a great es;ipti,
The Government had declared that it was MOO,
portant to the country to reduce -the duty on cattleip.fif;
(Mr. Labouchere) hoped they would 'extend the,"
ciple to other articles of consumption. He was' gid
• find that the Hon. Member for Gateshead had' Flost
notice of his intention to move a resolution
foreign corn in bond to be ground for exportittiou 11,00
when that motion came before the House, be ,4,
support it. illg?
Nle.- ROCHE said if they were to have free to
heaven's name let them have free trade. It was j"srigit ,
they should have it. They had all heard free" oil'
I arguments when they cut against Irish interesle,
when in favour of Irish interests the principle ° ifer
trade was "'denied. By a left-handed blow thel.
about to bring the Irish producer of salt meat'
ruinous competition with the foreign Producer.
•Sir R. PEEL said that while the Hon. Gentlellifie,l4
nothing to say against the principles of free-t 11,,, ofici
added that they were not at liberty to touch 0,11.10.,
article unless they adopted universally the prinelP
free trade, and removed all restrictions and obstrucolic
whatever. Now, he could not forget the 116 n. utele,lo;
man's own speech on the su',ject of Irish oats.--0i,,,11.
He doubted whether, by any course he might o[olo'o,
could have met the approbation of the Hon, Gent'„,o°,,
The Hon. Gentleman must be aware that there fr,
present a duty of 12s. on salted meat import'', P..
abroad, which it was proposed to reduce to Bs. 13, 'info':
his Right Hon. Friend had shown, the protecti°;l:".„'
quite delusive. The proposed duty was pet fedi?, tie/
and would not place the lrish provision trade in Foie
ger. He (Sir R. Peel) believed that the prineipal'."o
to that trade was in the high price of Irish provisTreti)
Mr. ROCHE explained. He had never made a
etelo
"abbut Irish oats.—(A laugh.) He had never'll:tA
discussion in that House upon Irish oats.—(" Yel.°:o;
from Sir R. Peet.) Why, he (Mr. Roche) had
so many speeches as the Right Hon. Baronet;
fore, hecould remember all that he had made;---010°' •
Sir R. PEEL begged parein ; he spoke of 0;k.
Member for Cork City.—(Hear, and a laugh.)
Lord J. RUSSELL thought that the Hon. Ge,vaikr,ki
(Mr. Callaghan) had shown that the protectioll" f
'64
lusive ; and in answer to what had been said':
Ht' s:on. Gentleman (Mr. Roche) who followed,
.10',./
say that it was easy to object to a particular ilenlo'ni
tariff, and to say, that unless the same principle..e"".., '0„1,
plied to every other article, it should be oppoe-Vliis
the proper course would be, to apply the prieciptfig
competition to every artiele.—(Hear, hear.) 0
part, wherever that principle was applied he sh°,'
port it, and afterwards endeavour to extend it.s`;lo,lo,
article to which it was now applied by the pi;
~
vernment. He believed, that if they applied t;.der),
ciple wherever they could, it would work itself -,o›
and all those monopolies, and even the new 17°
would give way.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir R. FERGUSON said, that what was 0,1„,0.9,0,
of in Ireland was, that the curer of salted provls.,,eoror,
not sufficient compensation, and had no fair e°ll'''ricf,
with the foreigner. With regard to the highjr:oe
01
provisions, he thought it was occasioned by the eow,,
cattle in the country, and he believed that ill t",bellt
of another year cattle in Ireland would be 63 000
they were in 1834 and 1837.—(Cheers.) • butiV
The gallery was then 'cleared for a divisiontt,..o,
took place, the motion (as we understood) bei
h draTwn. 0011°e
e Speaker then left the chair, and the-
into Committee on the Customs Act. 101
DUTY ON CATTLE.
Mr. W. MILES rose to move his resolution 00044
the duties to be levied on live stock import° taltell,lo.
reign countries for the purpose of food, be 1)°;;JV
weight." He said, in justice to his constititen.d of
thought it right to move it at this earl): Perlof
debate, , Concurring as he did in . the 0p10ien0,;),,0.,y
that the alarm that had been spread threllothe'vet
country relative to the tariff; especially as
on cattle and live stock, was well founded. 'delve"
there was nothing left for them but to e"
obtain for the agricultural interest 3 )
only a fair proteition.—(Hear, hear, he3'l",; offer,' ,10,
as a whole he believed the scheme of finar,;t, be',
the Right Hon. Baronet was a most Peri,e-beft''„deete,
ample system, and such an one as had neve',.,tifeJa,
offered by any Minister in a time of conV`
and, generally speaking, it bad received a

i

=,mac.: -,-

d resalvc ;t-,[4f

1, •
from
ight le made. a
)ortatio3/41.
frc ni Corn-di'
petitioners at
-(Laughter.)
1111 Aberdeen
duty on the
ag the House
ion as Ayoub'

or.
is he saw the
Iftior Vivian)
f
,mid cries 0
)tie Lord

Ition of which
the pronogres
ixiety the,
,ed, he should

the following
wohibition to
•
a might net
.aw material,
the walla'
ng animals be.
salted prom'
n equil Tien. "I
warehonse,lV
• exportatioul.,l
.trred to lu
le Gentlerna,
nidst so mac
rely °
audibe).
ten connectiA,
'as, that that
,ortion of the
ied into effec!'
nded that the
) 4s.
tinstort
ado of
by the Rig",
,Tho'
alonial ports+.
by the pr'".
ble Barone
a any otbefi
to regret
nild 'tend tc
)vision tradei
which he he'
.esolution ,yes e
.
the case or th q:
ire had edge?
thettr. oki
effect
provisionsW
tted that',ol
of thelllit)
1 the Irish r .
s
itch foree 41,1/4
foreign. po.7p,
• much eon' .1,
an years fttrO
the Irish Pio
lad , rfferred
t there lynsd
the prices It
Ilarabarg,
ineas per t 046
the years P‘e
1 1832, it r°:o
s 5 guineas'
natural .c°,9,,t
erchatit in toot.,
foreign 00/lii:
10, the price,,t
in 1841,
haradter
51 1)
ienti,tneit-
7,
le hazard• a
provisions h:f.
,vn off so 018„':
this conut:lit"
flout ..
,e a pi fort
.r.)
ng for an to,
.e conseque efj'
Sion had bete';
he evil was. 01,
ar as provisls4,
)visions 5111;
exaction
such a cog
system 740;
tiple which' ft
was not a ?lot
e of stores eet
Iritish protl°
'
:IT were orajt
isle, except 57:A
t be del H'
Stever.—(e 0
to
ld be unjutti,
.e to pay a nirpt
se salted y:;,„4!
:e, that ifrV,
atiL to j'Zold•
ns, the! ',old:4'
d; in the stitor..
d did nt't jri••
from thc'
for salted
If this Onntillo,
was the s,
had referrecti,ol, .
3t. The
126, ivhi'e ttlit
?. One-f°nos
to three-futott,
were mooe'resa
then theY
Possible to Y
• with the, : t„lf
[to had ju„trii
this c°u
s at as e11ct4911,0
he Right
taken plOatio!
to price ofld
It great ePioii:
'as highly,s
on cagey
xtend the td,
lie wP as •04
lead hatl'Frool
lotion °log, •
xporta;til;oo4
tA
e free VII
It was ill.sctr,
nird freoH,,,•
'intereste
nineiple °t
I()Air theY
salt meat
iclucer.
GentiewEA
f free-tru",,
touch ari; 6c
he prineiPe
,Itt,4
nd obstrn"
Ceritif)
oats.-- „e,
might
00° oi
on. Gen vo
at there , /00
i in port°
:o Bs. 13°t,
Protectiou, oft,
pet feetlf dot
Ide in au,-off
tineipill(l.oo;;)i6•
h provisi
made *heel
never ''_.)trit
yesfotyr
) bad
not bel4'
,net, an o,
ade.--(11110t/
ke of ts
the. 1
• #
ukh.)
Lon. Gel)
teetioa
sat ttoftie
,
,wed, "e
liar iteTre '4; !
nciplesije; 11:ir
oPNST'of pio
theshawl,ttPil,:f
Vieie
end
he pre'
died thderjov,,
itself Eor 0
newt „,r,
,„ c00,3,,P;i114:
ow to'
pr Aof
iir eu .407 ,1
high,„r 105.'d
cow 10
t thbeef
e e
be as - one
but city
isiont cr
I) being sod
Le ilon'o
„I.l°l
ctio" (rot,' t 1
,orted 4eo,6ti
be t4i)e,!'"oe
iturntsd of j•
0°
titoilijOttti#ll
brougoe•l)
s to soot'rs, to
et. , •r
a
roPo'
eci
ett,•, aer-
Ince °oll'brell,
t.tecte pre
er U
er AY.
,arati!,ider

dist,
gh Perhaps rtauctan-:., approbation .'rom the country.
„!li_lt,rdr'n was now placed On the right shoulders ,
ei4flght Itee,
-aronet had brought forward a decided
tle'e7i and direct taxation n as new called on to relieve
n!,arNtssed Excht•qiier. He need not state t..v
led
r'stimanitnous support which the Right Hon. Baronet
seiertc,i'ived from that phalanx of country Members b)
the 4't WRS )'.urrounded. They had gone along with.
tio4Right Hon. Baronet as far as they could.-(Opposi-
j101:"rs.) They had gone along with him in passing
tin
)aw Bill. They had listened in silence to the un-
th4t
tin • taunts of Hon. Gentlemen opposite, in order
letti,e business of the House might not be interrupted;
e,iistTi' Present was an occasion when, in justice to their.
Net utetats, they were bound to make that opposition
uhej(e)chtl:idlnthe
,4114:Ityilittr demanded,
r, except the different amounts of
pieeroposed lay the Right Hon. 'Derelict, but . in the
toria;qinsfince they had to grope amidst a mass of ma-
°fan and they were called on to consent to a scale
eo"ujitiies which, if carried into effect without alteration,
tr, 'most detrimental to the agricultural interest.
tit' t~ehan; askPci Out, of doors why he brought forward
todre7`4")n-whether lie would fare better if the Noble
ite should take the place occupied by his
lie ~ 't le Friend, to whose general policy he assented.
a}t(.-entetided that that was not a point upon which any
G "'stet' could be called upon to throw up the reins of
tsijeNnent.-(Hear, hear.) It was simply one of de-
itae:t„nd as a qtiestion of detail it must be discussed.
Board
Trlt, number of deputations had attended the
bearde'
sand he was . happy to say that they had been
kade with attention; and- many alterations had been
wee" in the tariff, which showed that the Government
'lll 1;i Clubs to do justice to all parties.-(Hear, hear.)
ot dell Iht Hon. Baronet' had held out to them the hope.
)ilset, • 214; benefit from the. reduction which would take
iuteresiil several articles consumed by the agriculturei,
4ea, ;,arnongst others, he had instanced clover, rape-
'teem "no, to his great astonishment, onion seed. He
the ask the Ri,ght Hon. Gentleman whether he thought
triruction on those articles was not more than balanced
''eduction made in the Corn-laws?-(Bear, hear.)
ate-silill'ght Hon. Baronet had stated that the panic had
that tttieye.edb: lie admitted the fact.. There was no doubt
en the farmers threw their beasts in great quan-
aenid ai to the market, a great change in many respects
th, the result. There was a deep feeling that in
Nrly rff, the interest of the farmers had not been pro •
tee, et,ltisidered.• He thought this was ef great import-
tt, a'l,Csi, lie hoped the ,llie•ht Hen. Baronet would take
•uar conside'ratton. Had the Right Hon.
teleui'e.' considered the price of artificials in this and
16 g6-e',ll.'itlies? If he had not, he would enlighten him on
t,heiet'le)e,ct• Had the Right Hon. Baronet considered
't th• "tton of landlord and tenant,' and, did he suppose.
Ivelq Profits of the farmer were diminished, that he
htl'av be able to par the same wages ?. He would
tnar eal' the attention of the Right Honourable
i." 11•1",: t° the prices of artificials, oil-cake, and
°G; we';:itont, this country and Denmark.-(Hear, hear.)
with th compere the price of artificials in this country
11°11t,f e prise of artificials in those parts of the Conti..-
talk- 4)4 which our supplies of provisions and live am-
thilvere most likely to come. The price of oil-cake in
it wil:111)4y
Wit
; last year s ten guineas a ton; in Denmark
teer„s'/ guineas a ton. The price' of barley in this
lk.'er.last year was 30s. a quarter ; in Denmark it was
thtliOcgnarter.-(Loud Opposition cheers ) Now let
04%14%i-der the quantity of these artificials consume
Nate‘kia, Ple would take a farm of 1,100 acres in thisst
'eat t?, 'as an example,: and on a farm of
.that size let
io.lo.ere
has been consumed 10 tons of oil-cake, cos -
hie,l 4't and-200 quarters of barley, costing 3001. ; mak-
leate,,4lenditure for artificials in the course of last
f
'° to '°sl. Now look at ,Denmark, there the cost o
gllast;' of oil-cake would have been 631., and of 200
dithre-ta, of barley 150/., making a total expen-
;;ist , in artificials of 2131. ; showing that the
•Nee.lles 1981. less- in Denmark than in England.
" 'arei'at was an ingredient for consideration in
tino,eag-protectiOn. He did not want a high protec-
fej,:llt if they were to have protection, let them have
4'44 Protection ; and when they found that the cost of
to the is was so much less to the Danish farmer than
i4l4glish farmer,: that certainly must enter as an
tee caucus into their calculations. Then, let the Com-
bo le:. Inok into the different rates of duty proposed to
astied on the different animals, and on the various
t4clue °f provisions. On all fresh and half salted meat,
lei`iecl noheel, mutton, veal, and pork, there was to be
h°sa duty Of Bs. per cwt. The duty on live animals,
"er, was very different. On an ox it was 11., a cow,
Pie; a Calf, -10 s., a, sheep, 35., a pig; ss. ; pig-meat, how-
was in some instances subject to a higher duty than
ler the duty on, .bacon and hams was 14s. Now, to
iiielstitrate •
the difference between the duty on meat, and
uty on live animals, he would calculate what the
of an
eught to be on an ox. He would take the weight
'a ox at six cwt.,. because.. he thought that would be
about
the average weight. of each ox that would be
titaliot He therefore, took the animal meat. The
the 3 ehurgeable on the animal Was 21. Bs. The hide and
`11!tallow would be about one-half cwt. each. The duty
, •the bide wet, would be about er cwt., and tallow
e,..4,1;t0 that the animal killed abroad and sent to this
01 tyy, • NYOuld be charged about 21. 9s. ;
41. t
duty,
from were sent alive, it would pay
duty 0.17 the which they must deduct the
Which would.
billeettlveWhileshs would come in duty free,
eid. He would take
the hog of three clef.
t'which' would be imported alive at
Il 4s; it were imported fresh or half-salted, it would be
; if, on the rcontrary,it it was sent as bacon or ham,
woukl be 11. Ss. Thus there would be an advantage
if the foreigner in sending the animal alive, of 11. Os. 4d.
tine' seht it as fresh meat, and 1/. 4s. 4d. as bacon ; so
it appeared to him that no importation would be
from the neighbouring countries except that of
;nulnag anitnais.. The. on. Gentleman then went through
It:e statement of the cost in England, of bringing
`tin ox to the. weight of 6001 b., and a hog to the weight
iseirthe but it was impossible to follow him correctly
elittis details, as they were heard in the gallery. He
di if at the same time the House considered the
tire;Vit price of labour, the difference of rent and of
tliet,-;1w. this country and abroad, there would be no doubt
'tier: these respects the foreigner had the advantage.
eatee:'4llld be no difficulty, he believed, in obtaining
'teat, „I,°ta Harnburgh, and other towns on the Conti-
fr;alee'e'ich would become the great foci of the provision
Portt,d',` the new tariff were adopted. Belgium now ex-
the (i") Prance 17,000 head of cattle. He found from
l'otetitiluiries he had made, that oxen could be imported
Nape -"tend, with the payment of the duty and all ex-
trek shat 151. 15s. Od. from Rostock for 151. 16s. 6d. ;
4 42s.'1Latzie for 13/ 14s. 6d. ; from Elsinore for
impors4l- ; and the loss to the English grazier, if the
fttee Pan were from Ostend would be 1/. Ils. Od. ;
tiettf tostock 11. 18s. 6d ; from Dantzic 21. 11s. 6d. ;
tlest,:;44l, Elsinore 4/. 13s. 6d. It should be observed, .
to tiu;n'll.oneous impression seemed to prevail, relative
tte'er. Peke Of beef in this country ; he found that the
W h ole sale price in Smithfield market during the
zatithr) amounted to sixpence. To maintain the aver
n,tY must. be sometimes at fourpeuce, and some-
. mt' biXPenCe ; at those prices it would be impossi-
. telto mat pence
the saine.rate of rent. Taking the eye-
like; th,e. Price of foreign oxen from the ports whence
ton 4„lll,'ght be exported would be 51. 15s. Od. The Mir
l'artle":Y "n an ox in France, which was partly customs,
keteeetrei, was 3/., yet in one year the number im-
,4ttioe-was 17,000. All he asked for was a fair pro-
-7,lthlL to enable the English farmer to compete
the lad tOreigner. , He would also call the attention of
Nei se to the danger of destroying the trade in salted
7.1!:t.-,11, from Ireland, which would lead to a greater
of live cattle from that country. Then,
t,"apab.7gard to the United States, if.they looked at the
'01441„11,tY of that country, at the immense quantity of
Prit,"'ti rated and uncultivated it contained, and the
asst ant salt provisions there, the Right Hon. Baronet
'No,'"-I,ntit that there was no reason to fear the impor-
'4r from Hambgh or any part of the continent of
'4l4lP:'hilib I,l2i)till, that theur whole of the. supply of the salt pro-
,4t Come from the United States. The Hon.
Zie Jo then read an extract from the New Orleans
„74tt,?urnal. stating that in nine States, containing a
-"llnaa,',"a of five millions and a half, there was a great
itste:tke of cattle, meat, and corn, and a great scarcity
tter ,-la of clothing and Manufacture, and that the
"hioCght be obtained from England but for legislation
17,31.,,tipttevented a fair interchange, and that it
.was
b importance to them that these articles_
il'frat. if
.a admitted at a moderate duty. He trusted
.(liteeite Right Honourable Baronet
animals,
~,,,„uivr
(in fixing the duty rather
.uponlevethe
'tek G a opt that mode of taxation. If
• tilk en,tleee, Hight
n would not do so, he (Mr. M.) should.i
Net, h's duty to oppose that part of the tariff
events, lie
tes-ei" to this subject. He thought
.at all evien
ot.it a.case for the consideration o t gl
-4t14,.4r0net. The Hon. Gentleman concluded, by
i me motion of which he had given notice.
" ~lrvet• PALMER seconded-the motion.
e.'ltte„ iv 1.-N-I)HAM said that, as a Member for an aerri-
t.l 111;' retta. he hid not heard of any general panic
h 1.1.tt of the tariff.-(Hear, hear.) The Hon.
e 11'ivsht. have heard of. it in the county with which
'ilhle“re'.l,,,,easaneeted, but in his (Mr. Wyndham's county
w voLpanic. When they talked on the subject,
1 eatir Considered was that foreigners had got
%St "0 brill •
4 - th, g into this country-(Laughter)-or at
t4thEi farY were so bad that there was no fear to the
The paler from them.
jells
~arl of MARCHwould not have troubled the
n4`t it fallen from his
11. not been for what had
'tic
liph `ague- He differed from every syllable that
‘-satei ,• Colleague had uttered.-(Cheers and laughter)
01 boa countea°___ll,ld. assure the House that, .in the part of
•Y with which he was connected, the greatest
4r ats were made against the tariff.
the taigottni.lii.eifalbrEreAiTHCOTE felt that he was contend-
the in supporting.
inasmuch of
er for East Somersetshire, as
illeaders of both sides-of the House leagued
arc into m• ale would not exaggerate the state_e of
bY th which the agricultural interest had b
e announcement of the proposed changes in
ex°ittedhe could assure them that the stronest
(14(leiten an e on the subject. and that the consequence
co__
antes depreciation in the value of pro;
rt:assessinguaritstUifntlemen of moderate fortune, yeomen
ate-tax un them
e`iutaPlained that thPryerty, and the tenantry gereerelle:
e Ight Hon. Baronet had laid. tmen_
etean._
0„ ~.and had at the same time diminished
ad relieved tlie(
tie produ3ce.l p ng it, by depreciating the price of
;I‘:i.rrgetl in thrreeest&rse.at
oe.ar, bear.) They complained that he
txp,
• • ih Ilse.__(chee her parts of the community at their
(Cheers, The Right Hon. Baronet had
that all the
'o4leo the experiments, of which no man could
This, however, was admitted on all
Li„.4l-ing interests to
benefits to be derived from those ex-
svere
ete oftetahieweligr
,hie for the commercial and manufac-
b,_ ‘,l the ,:.1
agricultural interest. The Right Hon.
;e all the risk and all the loss was
at it wculd3"
R.341,45a,r0net had
chased his proposition on the assumed
th
the twice of Hybl 13
hfim the benefit of the country that
,4,taiet• r_ree goesa (mid be made cheaper, and argued
ee baronet had taken the prices of 18:35
~,o 1 t had risen to an improper eight.
etan
ut what were the cfreutnatoances of the

country in 1835 ?-- It was-the time of the most bitter
agricultural distress that had ever occurred within the
memory of man in this country. -The price of wheat
was then only 395. a quarter. There had been nothing
so deplorable, even during the worst period of the Ame-
rican war. In 1833, a Committee of that House had sat
to consider the question of agricultural distress. In
1836, a Committee had again been appointed to investi-
gate the causes of agricultaral distress ; and the Bight
Hon. Baronet took the years between these two period;,
as the basis on which his new arrangements were to take

place. If the Right Hon. Baronet chose to take 1835
as his standard, .he (Mr. G. Heatheote) might take 1812
as his standard, when wheat was 1265. a quarter, and
the price of meat, for Greenwich Hospital, was 85s. a
cwt. ; and he argued that, the price was now 565., the
fall which had, taen place, as compared with 1812, was
greater than the rise, as compared with 1835. He was
surprised to hear the Right Hon. Baronet make use of
such an argument ; and he would ask him (Sir R. Peel)
what would have taken place at the last election, if, in-
stead of talking about protection to agriculture, he (Sir
11. Peel) had proposed, as. a compromise, the prices of
1835 ?—(Loud cheers.) The Hon. Member for Sussex

had said that, at present, there was no immense stock of

cattle abroad, from which any very large importation
could come; but a wise statesman should adapt his legis-
lative measures not merely to present convenience, but to
future contingencies. The only thing which had prevented
the fertile countries in the north of Europe from increasing
their stock was the uncertainty of the market, and now
that the market of England would be a certain one,
there could be no doubt but that their stock of cattle

and their importations to this country would increase.
Let them take the case of wool. In Erussia, in 1816,

the number of Merino sheep was only thre millions,
and in 1837 these had increased tonearly eleven millions
—so that in twenty years there had been an increase of
eight millions in this kind of stock. Could any one be-
lieve that if there was a more lucrative mode of ap-

plying capital that they would not increase in a still
greater ratio? In every town on the Continent they
found a colony of English labourers, and this was an-
other advantage to the foreigner. There was another
thing which • ought to be _ recollected, which was,
that in the consideration, of this subject they
ought to consider not merely the retail prices
at which meat could be sold in towns, hut the
wholesale price at which it could be exported. The
Right Hon. Gentleman in his calculations took his prices
from the great towns, such as Hamburgh. It was the
smaller towns that he should have taken, and this was
the opinion of Mr. Meek. An Hon. Gentleman had
given the House some acconnt of the prices which pre.
veiled in other countries. Perhaps he (Mr. Heathcote)
might be allowed to state what those prices were, by
putting the weight of the animal into English stones.
He found that the price of an ox of 6001bs. that was
63`stone, was only 71. He found that the prices of sheep
were from 4s. to 20s. weighing. 801bs. In Elsinore he
found that beef was 20s. to 265. per cwt., soraething
more than 2d. but less than 3d. a pound- In Prussia
and Hamburgh it was nearly the same. The Right
Hon. Gentleman stated, that fears had been expressed
that beef would be brought over to this country at 3d. a
pound, and said that this fear was unfounded; but ac-
cording to Mr. Meek, the retail price of beef on the
Continent was 3-M. per pound. But it was argued, that
the distance would act as a prevention to the cattle
coming over; but did not Hon. Gentlemen know that
cattle came from the north of Scotland, a distance of

700 or 800 miles? Then it was said that the sea voyage

would be a preventative; but were not great quantities
of cattle brought from Ireland ?—(Hear, hear.) He
believed that Lancashire _ was almost entirely

supplied from Ireland. He (Mr. Heathcote) could not
help saying that there was" some unfairness in the tariff,
seeing that, one of the greatest monopolies, that of the
chipping interest, was benefited to the amount of
600,0001. by the reduction of the duty on timber, and yet
they left the monopoly untouched. Bit the free trade
principles of Hon. Gentlemen opposite was protection
for themselves and free trade for all the world else.
He thanked the House for having so patiently listened
to him.

Mr. GLADSTONE said the Hon. Gentleman who
had just sat down had, in the course of his speech, said
that by the new scale of duties the agriculturists were
to suffer all the loss, and trade was to reap the exclusive
benefit and advantage. To answer this argument would
be a waste of time, and he (Mr. Gladstone), therefore,
would venture to leave that argument to the House, and
to the Hon. Gentlemen opposite to settle that part of
the account with the Hon. Gentleman. He did not mean
to say, however, that the question immediately before the
House was not one of very great importance. In entering
into this subject, he could not help expressing his satis-
faction at the fairness and moderation of tone with
which it had been introduced by the Hon. Gentleman
who had made the motion and the Hon. Gentleman who
had seconded it ; and further he must say, that nothing
could be more fair than the Hon. Gentleman, the Mem-
ber for Somerset. The object which he had in view was
an equitable and fair protection, such as would enable the
English farmer to comnete with the continental breeder
of cattle. He (Mr. Gladstone) thought his Hon. Friend
must be persuaded, as must every Hon. Gentleman there,
that that was also the object of her Majesty's Govern-
ment. They had no idea whatever, in the consideration
of the subject, that the English learner would be placed
in such a situation by the proposed change as to render
him incapable of competing with the foreigner. He
ventured to state, what he had stated in that House
before, that those gentlemen who were ,themselves the
magnates, as he might say, of the science of agri-
culture, did not always cherish that powerful
source 'of real strength which British agricul-
ture derived from its own energy, by which he
believed the most lucrative income would be
derived. He must commence what he had to say with
the observation, that nothing would induce him, humble
as he was, to concur in a proposition which he believed
likely to be injurious to the interests of the country. He
must say, that although he was averse to the principle
and practice of drawing distinctions between different
industrious classes of the community, yet he must say,
if distinctions were to be drawn, they ought to be drawn
in favour of agricultural industry. Having said this, he
must add, that the Right Hon. Gentleman at the head
of the Government would have failed in his duty to the
country, if he had proposed less than that which he had
proposed for the adoption of the House. Something had
been said with respect to an alarm prevailing at the pre-
sent moment, and the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat
down spoke of the depression in agricultural stock in con-
sequence of the publication of the tariff. Now with
spect to the price of meat, he could not help saying, that
the Hon. Gentleman ought to have remembered that there
had been a depression in the prices of articles to which
the tariff did not • apply. The Hon. Gentleman (the
Member for Somerset) stated, that there had been appre•'
hensions with respect to sheep and mutton. He (Mr.
Gladstone) did not think the Hon. Gentleman could tell
him that the relative prices of mutton and beef were dif-
ferent this spring to the relative prices of last year.
Therefore, he did not see how the publication of the tariff
had caused this depression. But even if it were so, it was
unreasonable to make that an objection to the proposition
of the Right Hon. Baronet. Look at the accounts they
were receiving from all parts of the country of the cattle
fairs. He happened to hold in his hand an extract
from a recent publication. It was an account of three
fairs, and he would read them for the information of the
two Hon. Members for Sussex. (The Right lion. Mem-
ber read an extract from an Irish newspaper, stating that
the Carlow fair had been well attended, and high prices
had been maintained. The same good account was from
Waterford.) lie hoped these accounts would serve to
dissipate their apprehensions. He did not think
that the agriculturists were better able to judge •
of these things thaw themselves. lie did not
think they ought to make this alarni a cardinal rule
for their proceedings. He gave a great deal of credit . to
the Hon. Member for Somerset, for his opening speech,
but he claimed to himself credit for his motion being in
telligible. Now he did not think that 'this was borne
out by the motion. In his motion, the Hon. Member
did not say.whether the duty to be levied was Bs. per
cwt. or Is. 6d. pe?cwt. This certainly was a most ma-
terial question. It would be a pretty consolation for his
Hon. Friend, if the Government were to propose a duty-
of ls. per cwt. But he supposed he meant something
like 4s. or ss. This was a question of theoretic accu-
racy on the one hand, and convenience on the other.
They had to choose between the amount of a precise
duty, and the disadvantages, the delays, and inconve-
niences that this theoretic accuracy would bring. The
great objection to levying this duty was, that they must
have an apparatus for the purpose. In order to perform
the operation, they must have a weighing apparatus
erected for the purpose, and also quays made on purpose.
They must have ships discharged there, and there
would be great delay to the commerce of the docks. And
they must recollect that all this time lost was an addi-
tion to taxation.—(Hear, hear.) They ought to adopt
the plan which was the simplest, "and offered the least
obstruction to business. The Hon. Gentleman, the
Member for Somerset, and the agriculturists whom he
represented, had complained that the proposed duty on
spring corn was ruinous. —(Cheers.) Now there was
the duty on the importation of meat, which was even
lower than the duties on spring corn. Then there was
the duty on live cattle, which 'was still lower. These
were all subjects of complaint to the Hon. Member. Ho
(Mr. Gladstone) would contend that u duty of 11. was a
fair duty, and preferable to a duty by weight. He
would not then go into m comparison of the duties on
corn and the duty on wheat, the question of corn
having ;been • disposed of, as he thought it would
be wasting the time of the House ta do so.—
(Hear, hear.) But he would take the compari-
son of Bs. per cwt. duty, and 1/. levied on the
whole ox. He thought, in the first place, that they had
the advantage of both lean and fat. There were several
reasons why this duty should not be levied by weight.
With respect to the duty on the dead as compared to the
live animal, they must consider that it had arrived at its
ultimate state of manufacture and W:IS ready for imme-
diate consumption. The last process of labour was
finished. This was one reason why he thought that the
duty ought to be made higher than that on thelive animal.
The grounds on which he argued that was, first, the dif-
ference of freight., which his lion. Friend had completely
kept out of sight. Dead meat was now coming largely
from Scotland, and what was the vast difference between
the live and dead freight to which his Hon. Friend haul
referred ? The fair way to try the question was to look
at the charges on dead and on live meat. Now with re,
spect to the meat coming from Hamburgh, the live ox
paid 21. as fare, and ss. as expenses, and the ditty was
11. ls., making altogether 31. 6s. He would suppose the
dead ox to be six cwt., and upon that altogether there
would be a payment of 31. 10s., so that the mighty dis-
crepancy which bad been referred to consisted in the
difference of 31. 6s. and 31. 10s. There was then another
subject to be taken into consideration, and that was, that
different parts of the carcase of an ox varied in value ;
he believed that one-third part of the ox was worth 25
per cent. more value than the other parts, and it was
dierefore probable that the Hamburgh butcher might
send to this country the best parts
,tind keep the rest for

the consumption of his own- countrymen. Now, leaving
the subject of the relative. duties, he would press ua
tho
Committee that the duty proposed by his Right Hon.
Friend of IL a head on live oxen was as considerable a
duty as ou.4.ht to be levied. It was said that his Right
Hon. Friend had only gone back to 1835. Now, with
respect to that, he apprehended that if he had gone fur-
ther back his principle would have been more correct.
He believed that the means of communication which had

taken place had tended very much to increase the price
of meat ; some measure was therefore called for to check
the rise in prices. There was another subject to be con-
sidered. - Had they not an increasing, and a rapidly in-
creasing., population; and was it not necessary that some
provision should be made to meet it.? Was it, he would
ask, likely that throwingopen the markets to the Conti-
nent would do more than provide for such an increase of
population? He wished he could persuade himself that
there would be a larger importation of cattle from the
Continent.
„He believed that the proposed measure would
afford material relief, but he doubted whether it.would
do more than provide the relief that would be required.
He could not conceive that the tariff could ever produce,
as had been stated, a reduction in the price of meat of
2d. or 21d. per lb. Unless it could be shown that large
quantities of meat would be poured into the country, ete
Britishh farmer had nothing to fear ; he believed he
might farly calculate the whole consumption of meat in
this country at.about. },600,000 head of cattle, and was it•
to be supposed that the provisions of the tariff would in-
terfere with that ? His Hon. Friend had referred to the
produce of the Baltic ; with respect to that, he would
ask him whether he 'really dreaded the importation of
live or dead cattle from the produce of the Baltic, when
the expense and charges in bringing them to this country
were so great ? He "Wished his Hon. Friend had given
them an estimate of the number of horned cattle that
might be imported into this country in five years ; he
had heard that there might be brought over in that
period 80,000; ho would suppose that to be a
fair calculation, and then he would ask whether
that number would do more than provide for the in-
crease in the population?—;Hear, hear.) He thought,
therefore, that no ground had been laid by his Hon.
Friend for his apprehensions, as he was sure that the
enterprise and spirit of the people of England would
enable them to compete with the whole world. His
Hon. Friend hal referred to the cheapness of Canadian

meat. Now, what was the result with respect to
that ? Why, the Canadian beef was left in bond, while
the meat of the Continent found a ready sale.

The productive powers of the Continent were interior to
those of this country. Look to the breed of horses.
Why was it that the cheap horses of the Continent did
not inundate this country ?—(Hear, hear.) And was
it not the same with the black cattle.—(Hear.) Were not

these facts and the experience which we had had, suffi-
cient to show that the apprehensions of his lion. Friend
were founded on fallacy ?—(Hear, hear.) For his part,
hedid not think that any great reduction of pricecould be
occasioned by the measure of his Right Hon. Friend.
He would only allude to one other point before he sat
down. It had been asked, if the whole number of herds
of cattle expected to be imported was no more than
50,000, why was the present state of the law interf?red
with ? He answered, that although the importation of
50,000 would only add 50,0001. to the revenue, yet it was
to be recollected that it would add nearly half a million
to the imports, and a corresponding. amount to the
exports of this country, which would inevitably cause
(although not at once, yet in the course of years) a con-
siderable increase in the demand for labour.—(Hear,
hear.) The benefit, he contended, therefore,. would be
great. The reduction of price to the consumer, although
not great in one particular item, would, on the whole,
he of great advantage, and there was no ground for ap •
irehension of any injury to the home producer.—(Hear)
Dr. BOWRING, 'who spoke amid very great noise
and confusion, occasioned by Members leaving the House,
said that as the state of the laws of importation in
foreign countries had been alluded to, he wished to say
a few words on that subject. The law of France was,
next to that of England, the worst, and the results of its
operation had been highly injurious to the consumers in
France, as well as to the colonies. The Honourable and
Learned Gentleman, amidst loud and repeated cries of
" Divide, divide," read a statistical statement of
the prices of meat in the French markets at various
periods, to show the mischievous workings of the
present customs system' in France. The measure of
the Right Hon. Gentleman was good so far as it went.
It conferred some important advantages on this country,
and great honour to those who proposed it, and he hoped
they would carry out the wise. generous, and politic
principle still further.—(Divide, divide.)
Lord NORREYS acknowledged that when the pro-
position of the Right Hon. Baronet, at the head of the
Government, was first brought forward he heard it with
very ()Teat alarm. But that alarm had been lately much
allayed by what he had heard out of doors, as well as by
the arguments and statements which were made in that
House. He had heard it said—" Now that we have
voted for the Corn-laws, we must do something to ap-
pease the farmers. Let us vote for Miles's motion—you
know we can't carry it"—(Cheers and laughter)—" it
will do the Government no harm, and it will throw dust
in the eyes of the farmers."—(Great cheers and laughter.)
By voting for the motion of the Honourable Member
for Somersetshire, those who. had raised the panic, by
their agitating the country all over, would make believe
that they participated in it.—(Hear, hear.) But he
would be no party to such a proceeding.—(Hear, hear.)
He believed that there was no ground for apprehension,
and he would vote against the motion of the lion. Mem-
ber for Somersetshire.—(Cheers.)
- -

Mr. GALLY KNIGHT (who rose amidst loud cries
of "Divide ") said, that he would not be one of those
who wished to keep up a groundless panic for the purpose
of keeping up the semblance of consistency ; but on the
contrary, he would do his best to allay it.—(Hear, hear.)
It was the absolute duty.of the House to supply the peo-
ple with food as cheap as possible.—(Great cheering from
the Opposition.) It was their duty to do so as far as was
compatible with causing no great disturbance of agricul-
tural interests.—(Cheers, -laughter, and cries of " Oh,
oh," from the Opposition.) Gentlemen might cheer and
laugh, but that was what he always meant by " food as
cheap as possible."—(Renewed cheers and laughter.)
It had been said that there was danger of this country
being inundated with cattle from Holstein, but when it
was considered that that small district had the consider-
able towns of Hamburgh and Altona to supply, it
plain that the source of danger to our agriculturists
must be looked for in a larger area. Was it in France?
—(Hear.) Why in France the meat was so inferior
that they did not dare to exhibit it in the shape of joints'.
—(Laughterand whenever he gaw it at table he was
reminded of the caricature, in • which the entrance of an
English sirloin of beef at the gates of Calais is hailed
with mingled admiration and surprise.—(Laughter.)
He was convinced that the national roast beef would
still continue to maintain.its superiority. He should vote
against the motion before the House, because he felt
that by doing so he should best consult the interests of
the community at large. He looked on the Right Hon.
Baronet at the head of the Government as the friend
equally of the agriculturist and the manufac-
turer,—(Hear, hear.) He believed that his desire
was to adjust the conflicting claims of both parties: He
had a confident assurance that the Right Hon. Baronet
would not throw overboard, as some seemed to suppose,
the great agricultural interest. He believed, that in
adopting the principles of free trade, the Right Hun.
Baronet would carry. them out wisely and moderately.
Nothing could be more dangerous in his opinion than a
strict adherence, under all circumstances, to abstract
:principles, however just they might be ; and no charac-
ters Were more dangerous than purists. It was not free
trade that the Conservative party were afraid oF, but
Radicalism, and extreme doctrines. These were the
things which they were afraid of, and not sugar or
coffee.—(Laughter.) They did not want to be pressed
by the heavy hoofs of the advocates of endless change.
He thought, however, that it would be wise to make some
concession to the wants of the people ; and he should
therefore vote against the motion then before the House.
Lord ALFORD opposed the motion. He felt assured
that if cattle were imported to a large extent under the
proposed change, they would be of a very inferior de-
scription.
Mr. 0. STANLEY thought that the principles ofthe
Right Honourable Baronet were not fairly carried out ;
and that they did not do justice to the agricultural in-
terest. He could not, therefore, support the measures
of the Right Hon. Baronet. He believed that some mis-
apprehension prevailed on the subject then under the
consideration of the House ; and he felt assured that in
Tuscany, for instance, cattle could be reared which
might compete in quality with the finest in this country.
He should vote for the motion then before the House.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that he really hardly knew,
after what he had heard in the course of that debate,
whethcr it was to be treated as a serious proposition.—
(Hear, hear.) • In the first place, the Hon. Gentleman,
the Member for Oxfordshire, had informed them that he
had been advised to vote for the motion, because it af-
forded a good opportunity to please the farmers without
carrying g
had tthhoeu
gpiriot p
tolsliatti mai ovrerdyamsianggiunlgartlnioe
tGior Government.
Hon. Gentleman, the Member for ;Nottinghamshire, who
had followed in the course of the debate, had told them
that Hon. Members on his side of the House, had never
held opinions - upon free trade that had differed from
theirs (the Opposition's), and that they voted on coffee
and sugar, but that they had meant Radicalism.—(Hear.)
How a plain man could deal with the question after these
communications, he .was` really much at a loss to know.
He must own that the embarrassment was much increased
by the course which both the proposers and the opposers
of the motion had taken on this and on previous occasions.
He should have thought that those who proposed that
cattle should be admitted at a moderate fixed duty, .woull
have shown that great benefit would thereby accrue to
the people of the country ; that the cost of subsistence
would be diminished by the importation that would take
place ; and that meat would-be procured by the labourite,
classes at a more moderateprice. He should have expected
on the other hand, that those who opposed the motion
would have shown the fallacy of supposing that any
such supply would •be afforded ; that it was a mistake
that any country of the- Continent could afford such a
supply, and that the price of meat and the cost of the
subsistence of the people would- remain, after such an
enactment, exactly the same as before. Cut the argue
menus had been exactly the reverse of what he had ex-
pected ; those who opposed the motion came forward
and showed that the comforts of the people would be in-
creased, while those in favour of it argued that no such
reduction would take place.—(Hear, hear.) If he
could believe all the arguments of the Honourable
Metuber for Somersetshire, he should think it the most
convincing speech he had heard in favour of the propo-
sition. He told them that in various parts on the Con-
tinent places of . depot would be formed where cattle
would be fattened, and that they would be sent over
here at a moderate price ; he said that in certain cases
they would have beef here at 4 d. per lb. If that were
the case, he should say, let them by all neeans adopt the
proposition.—(Hear, hear.) What were they sitting
there for ? Were they sitting there to prevent the
people from having cheap food?—(Hear, hear.) Or for