The Sun.
London, England, 1845-03-06 00:00:00

PROPERTY-TAX.

The order of the day for going into Committee on
the property-tax was then read.
Captain BERNAL OSBORNE said, that he could
not reconcile it to his conscience, or to the duty which
he owed to his constituents, to suffer this motion to be
agreed to sub silortio. He entertained most serious ob
' jections to this tax as it was at present levied, and re-
served to himself a full right to express his approval
of a property-tax fairly levied. He must say, that con-
sidering that this tax was levied upon trades and profes-
sions, and that the Government held out no hope of any
alteration taking place, he considered the tax in its
present form so odious and unjust, that he should move
as an amendment that the House do resolve itself into
Committee that day three months.
Mr. MUNTZ wished to explain the reason why he
now opposed the proposition of the Right Honourable
Baronet for the continuance of the property-tax. Having
voted for it when it was first proposed, because at that
time he deemed it expedient and just, he thought it his
duty to explain the reasons that now induced him
to vote against it. The circumstances of the
case were quite altered now from what they had been
when the Right Hon. Baronet proposed the tax ; and he
(Mr. Muntz) had voted fir it on that occasion because
he had felt convinced that it was necessary either to im-
pose this tax or to levy an additional duty on articles of
general consumption. But the question was now
entirely alterered—the question now was, whether
you should take off that tax or any other tax ?
and, while supporting the general proposition that the
imposition of a property-tax was fair and equitable, he
had a decided objection to this tax, because he consi-
dered an income-tax an injustice.—(Cheers.) The
more be considered the subject the more he was con-
firmed in this opinion ; and he bad not met with a
single income-tax commissioner who did not admit the
gross injustice and hardship of an income-tax.
Many people paid this tax who had no property or in-
come whatever, for the sake of keeping up appear-
ances. He begged it to be distinctly understood
that he did not object to a property-tax.--(Cheers.)
They might quadruple a property-tax if they liked,
he should not object to it. But he considered the
tax, as it at present existed, most unjust. An-
eth:r reason why he objected to the continuance of
this tax was, that not only the House, but the country,
were labouring under misconception on the subject of
the continuance of this tax. They, like the Right Hon.
Gentleman, were flattering themselves that, in three
years' time, they would get rid of this tax. They would
do no such thing. It would be perpetual.—(Hear, hear.)
Not only would they have to pay it for the rest of their
lives, but their children, their grandchildren, and their
great grandchildren would have to pay it after them.—
(Cheers and laughter.) Not only were they continuing
the tax, but they were doing away with the means of
ever getting rid of it. If he agreed with the Right
Hon. Baronet that a permanent improvement had taken
place in the condition of the country, then he might,
perhaps, consider that there was some hope of the repeal
of the tax, but he entirely differed from the Right Hon.
Baronet on that point. It was true that an improvement
had taken place in certain districts, but it was evident
why that improvement had taken place. Additional
burdens had been put upon one class, which had relieved
another. It was true the Right Honourable Baronet
had relieved the industrious clauses belonging to the ma-
nufacturing interest ; but he had done this by laying
additional burdens upon the agricultural interest. " I
call this," said the Hon. Gentleman, " robbing Peter to
pay Paul "—(A. laugh) but I want to know who
is to pay Peter ?—(Cheering, and much laughter.)
The Hon. Baronet said the other day that Sir Robert
Peel was a difficult bird to put salt on his tail, but it was
quite clear that the Right Hon. Baronet had put salt on
some of their tails. (Great laughter.) He did not
quarrel with the Right lion. Baronet for entertaining the
opinions he did. He was willing to believe that he was
sincere in them. He believed that the Right lion. Baronet
deceived himself, deceived the House, and deceived the
country.—(Renewed laughter.) lie (Mr. Muntz) ex-
pressed his sentiments straightforwardly and honestly,
and felt no hesitation in saying that the income-tax
was a most vexatious, obnoxious, and inquisitorial tax,
and he would always vote against its imposition.
Mr. F. BARING said, that if it were now a question
whether they would vote for an income tax or not, and
that their will was perfectly unembarrassed by the finan-
cial circumstances of the country, he would oppose it.
But, considering the position in which the country
stood, he believed it was preferable to other
modes of taxation ; and the fact was, they had
no power to dispense with this tax. What was
the financial state of the country ? They ought
distinctly to understand whether or not they
had a surplus to deal with—whether they could
take of the tax or not. He (Mr. Baring)
did not think they could dispense with 5,000,0001.
The income for the year, without the China money and
the income-tax, was about 47,900,0001.; the expenditure,
as shown by the estimates, was about 49,700,0001.;
leaving a deficiency of 1,800,0001. He was speaking of
the condition of the finances of the country if they took
off the income-tax. He had heard it said on the other
side that the resources of the country ought to leave a
margin to meet some of the casual expenses which fre-
quently came upon them. Now, if they took that
into consideration, he did not believe that they
could get rid of the income-tax without the imposition
of fresh taxes to the amount of two millions. That was
the present state of the finances of the country; and this
was his justification, and his only justification, for voting
for the income-tax. He voted for it, because he was not
ready to leave the country again with a deficient revenue.
Ho would say that it was not wise, after having had re-
course to one of the strongest financial measures that
could be taken, to give up all the advantages which the)
had gained by such a measure. lie was ready to
becausesub-
mit to any taunt for expressing this opinion, he
T
believed it to be a sound one. H
Gen-
tleman (Sir R. Peel) the other nighthe
uha
Rightd
said that he
(Mr. Baring), and his friends arond him, must
they
did not
be in love with the income-tax,because
oppose it. (The Right Hon. Baronet expressed dissent.)
Why, the Right Hon. Baronet had said, " If you do not
do you. not vote against it ?"
like the income-tax, why
The Right Hon. Gentleman said, why don't you vote
against the income-tax, or propose other taxes to meet
the trifling deficiency we have to make up ? Now, he
thought that was not fair, because it made a great
difference whether you oppose a tax which is already laid
on, or whetheryou oppose it originally.—(Hear.) lie had
a decided objection to the income-tax being made a part
of the permanent taxation of the country. He had
constantly opposed it, because he thought it unwise,
and he would continue to oppose it ; but, though
he retained all the objections which he had
expressed when the tax was originally laid on,
it did not follow that he was to oppose its continuance
for a further period of three years, when it was neces-
sary to meet the deficiencies of the country. It was
one thing to entertain strong objections to an income-
tax, and it was another thing not to oppose its continu-
ance for three years, particularly when there was a
deficiency of 2,500,0001. to be made up.—(Hear.)
ile did not think it would be wise to MR"

any great alterations in the way of taking off
taxes which would have,to be imposed again if; as he
thought, the income-tax ought not to be a permanent
one. Assuming, then, that some tax was necessary, and
that the continuance of the income-tat was requisite, he
would next come to consider what the propositions of
the Right Hon. Gentleman were, and what was the
course he pursued, having obtained his means, and
as it would be very difficult to argue the
case without going into the whole of the
financial arrangements of the country with the Right
Hon. Gentleman, he hoped the House would pardon him
in asking for its attention for a somewhat longer period
than otherwise would have been necessary. And, in
the first place, he sincerely regretted that the Right
Hon. Gentleman had left himself with so small a sur-
plus, about 90,000/. or 100,000/. He must say that that
seemed to him to be a small surplus to rely on. And
how did it rest ? On the sugar duties.—(Hear, bear.)
And on what did the sugar duties rest ?—(Hear.) Why,
on the calculation that the consumption of sugar would
be increased nearly one-fifth beyond what it was in the
year in which they had the greatest consumption, and
next, that that consumption would be supplied by the
coming in of certain sugars at a higher rate of duty.
Now, what were the duties which the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman would have to fsll back upon? He wished not
to act unfriendly to the Right Hun. Gentleman, but if
the classification was to be abandoned, he wanted to
know what was to become of the surplus ? It was clear
that the Right Hon. Gentleman would not get the
amount of duty he expected for the sugar duties. He
was warned of that by the Right Hon. Gentleman the
late President of the Board of Trade. He now
came to the taxes that were proposed to be
taken off; and in doing so he admitted that they could
not take off any tax without its being beneficial to the
country, but there were certain classes that would be more
rapidly affected than others. In the proposal of the
Right Hon. Gentleman he could not see any particular
charm.—(Hear, hear.) There could be no doubt that
the alteration of the sugar duties would be a great boon,
but the proposal that was made would not effect it.
He had made out a case differing materially from the
ordinary rule of financial arrangement ; but in that
arrangement he was supported by the common sense of
the country. They could not expect but that from their
reductions the same benefits would accrue as in other
cases of reduction. He was afraid, however, that
the Right Honourable Gentleman was hampering him-
self by the principle he was adopting, and that
the advantages to the community would not be so great
as he expected. He (Mr. Baring) admitted that the re-
duction on glass would be a very great benefit. He did
not in the least conceal that ; but it must be also under-
stood that he did not mean that it would confer a
direct benefit : he certainly admitted that indi-
rectly that reduction would be of very great advantage
to the poorer classes. He believed that it would give a
considerable impetus to improvements, improvements of
very great extent, but some time must elapse ere its in-
fluence could come into operation. There were other
duties remitted by the Right Honourable Baronet,
and he admitted here also that these reduc-

ions were calculated to benefit the country ;
but he (Mr. Baring) should have proposed, in
preference to either of those reductions, the lowering of
the duty on soap ; for, as far as his opinion went, that
would have been found more beneficial- to the working
classes. Still off , no one could object to the taking
taxes. If they dealt with taxation merely in the
abstract--if they turned their eyes to those reductions
without comparing them with others which might have
been conceded instead, the measure of the Right Hon.
Baronet might be considered a very liberal one.
And with reference to those articles on which
the duty had been remitted, would it not,
he asked, have been more advantageous for the classes
said to benefited, if those reductions had been made in
the poor man's tea, in his butter, in his soap, in his
cheese, in his tobacco, and in his coffee ? lie was
not so enamoured of the Right Honourable
Baronet's proposal as many Hemourable Gentlemen
on that side of the Hou3e had expressed themselves to
be. The Right Hon. Baronet had assured them that
the income-tax would be taken off at the expiration of
three years. He doubted much whether, at the end of that
period, the Right Hon. Baronet could perform his promise,
He had no doubt that the Right lion. Gentleman the
Chancellor of the Exchequer had a firm conviction
that lie would be enabled to do without that tax.
The Right Hon. Gentleman said, no man could speak
positively as to what might occur in three years hence,
but looking at the premises, he felt satisfied that the re-
venue would right itself before the expiration of that time.
When the Right Hon. Gentleman used that language
he (Mr. Baring) confessed he did not believe the
prospects he predicted were likely to arise. The Right
Hon. Gentleman turned to cerain years, in which he said
they would find that so much taxation was taken
off, and in a short time afterwards the re-
venue improved. Now, he begged the House to bear
in mind what the Right Hon. Gentleman's statement
was. The Right Hon. Gentleman said, they intended
to take off taxes to the amount of three or four millions,
and in the course of three years they expected their
revenue would by these means be increased
five millions. Now, he (Mr. Baring) could not
entertain the same sanguine hopes. No man
had more confidence in the real power of the resources
of the country than he had.—(Hear, hear.) lie never
had joined in the language of despondency which be had
occasionally he and indulged in by some Hon. Members
on his own side of the House ; but still he must
confess he could not now agree in the views
and opinions of the Right Hon. the Chancellor
of the Exchequer. The Right Hon. Gentleman directed
attention to the state of the revenue in 1816. He un-
derstood the Right lion. Gentleman to say, that three
millions of taxes were taken off in that year, and the re-
sult was that in 1819 the revenue improved. Now he could
find no common resources of information which could help
him to arrive at this conclusion.—(Hear.) The Right
Hon. Gentleman tried to assimilate the circumstances of
1816 with the present time ; but the Right lion. Gen-
tleman bad entirely forgotten the income-tax which
existed at that time.—(Hear, hear.) In the year 1916,
the ordinary revenue paid into the Exchequer wee
71,900,000/. Was that so ?

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—In-
cluding the income-tax.
Mr. F. BARING continued—Exactly so. He thought
the Right Right Honourable Gentleman had forgot-
ten the income-tax. Well, then, in 1816 the ordinary
revenue was 71,900,0001. In 1819 the ordinary revenue
was 52,155,0001., being less 19,745,000/. Ile was afraid
the Right Honourable Gentleman would hardly be
able to say that this was a consolatory result
for the first instance which the Right Honour-
able Gentleman gave in support of his statement.
It was on these grounds that the Cabinet had taken up
their impression that the income-tax would be taken off
at the end of three )ears. Other cases were more
clear. On the 'declination of trade in a bad year,
taxes were taken off to relieve it ; in another year,
trade revived and the revenue improved ; and then it
was said that this was the result of the remission of tax-
ation. To a certain extent he admitted this. But when
he came to look into the returns moved for by the
Hon. Member for Carlisle, he did not see anything
to justify the position which the Government had taken
up, especially if they were to take the whole amount into
account. There were two proofs. They might
take the experience of the years 1822, 23, 24,
25, and 1826. During those years there was a
large amount of taxation taken off. In 1831, 32, 33, 34,
35, and 1836, there was also a large amount of taxation
taken off. If they were to take the average of the
revenue of 1820 and 1821, and compared it with
the average revenue of 1827, 28, and 1829, they
would find that there had been a reduction of about
13,000,0001.; but so far from the revenue having righted
itself from ordinary sources, in those years they would
find from these returns that there had been a loss
of not less than 4,000,0001. if they took the second
period of 1827, 1828, 1829, and compare it with
1837, 1838, and 1839 they would find that in the remis-
sion of taxes there had been a loss of 4,600,0001. If lion.
Gentlemen would refer to the returns moved for
by Sir William Clay they would find that the taxes taken
off between 1815 and 1830 amounted to 18,000,0001., and
there had been a loss to the extent of
7,760,0001. in the ordinary sources of revenue.
The House would recollect that in the whole of
the Right Honourable Gentleman's explanation upon
this subject, he said that in taking off those taxes
he had proposed to remove, he would not only be con-
ferring a certain amount of relief on a large
portion of the community, but that he would be
borne out in doing so by the history of the acts of those
who had preceded him in office. From the year 1815
to the year 1833, about 33,000,000 of taxes had
been taken off, by which no less than
22,000,000/. were lost to the country. And now he
would ask the Right Hon. Gentleman how he proposed
to persuade this House that in his financial statement he
meant to carry out the pledge he had given relative
to the alleviation of taxes? There was ono point
to which he (Mr. Baring) wished particularly to allude,
and if he did not consider it of importance he would not
trespass so long upon the patience of the House.
When first the Right Honourable Gentleman camo
into office, in the year 1842, he stated the means
by which he proposed to take off thed heom
should
tax at the expiration of three years._ iin
He said
call upon both sides of the House to grant the income-
tax, and that, at the end of three years, he would, with-
out charging the Whigs with any improper
expenditure of money, be able to take
off a great amount of taxation by the reduction
of the army and navy.—(Hear, hear.) Now ho
(Mr. Baring) had looked at the amount required for
defraying the expenses of those two great services of tlie
country, and he had compared the estimates of the Right
Hon. Gentleman opposite for those services, with those of
the last year of " Whig mismanagement," and
he had found that the estimates of the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman, in this item alone, exceeded by half a million
those of the last year of " Whig mismanagement." He
(Mr. Baring) hoped the Right Hon. Gentleman would be
able to make out this part of his case to the satisfaction
of the House. He (Mr. Baring) did not complain of the
amount, if it should have been deemed necessary for the
sustainment of the honour of the country; on the contrary
he would not shrink from his share in the responsibility;
but he could not avoid saying that, after all they
had heard . from the Hon. Gentleman of re-
duction of taxation ; and after the manner in
which the Whig party had been held up for " mis-
management " and " jobbing"—(Great laughter)—
it was not very satisfactory to have it announced that
half a million more would be Man
for this year for
the army and navy estimates Min wake demanded for
the same purpose during the last year of " Whig mis-
rule and mismanagement."—(Hear, hear, and a laugh.)
sieirevalltoiounlds. not trouble the House with any further ob-
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER appre.
hended, from what the Right Hon. Gentleman bad said
in the beginning of his speech, that it was not necessary
for him (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) to follow
him through all his topics. Neither would In follow