The Sun.
London, England, 1845-06-17 00:00:00

;ISDA 1 I'VJNI

their flocks, or be partially dependent upon the State.
And why should not the Roman Catholics and Protestants of
Ireland associate together harmoniously in the same way that
they did in Scotland, Russia, or France ? He certainly would
not support the Bill, as being the first step to the endowment
of the Roman Catholic Church out of the public funds, because
he thought a portion of the revenues of the Established Church
ougbt to be appropriated to that purpose. A good deal had
been said about the murder and persecution committed by the
Roman Catholics of Ireland, but, on the other hand, had not
the Protestant Church, at some periods of its history, been
equally as persecuting and just as tyrannical ?_( Hear,
hear.) Did their Lordships forget the cruel murder of
Archbishop Sharp in Scotland, whose murderers were aft erwards
rewarded by the Church and the State for their cruelty? Let
them hear, then, no snore about the domineering and perse.
cuting spirit of the' Roman Catholics of Ireland. But he was
inclined to think it was the wish and the intention of her Ma-
jesty's Government to deal with Ireland in a more liberal
spirit, and passing from the religious to the political question
of justice to Ireland, he trusted, ere long, they would see an
extended system of registration introduced into Ireland, which
should place its constituencies on the same footing as those of
England. It had been said, however, that there was no use
in making concessions to Ireland, because, the more they con-
ceded, the more the people demanded, and even when they
got what they asked for, they were not contented. They had
heard a vast deal, too, of the ingratitude of the Irish people;
but let him tell the House, that if they conceded to
Ireland all that she was entitled to demand, and her people
were still dissatisfied, then would be the time for them to com-
plain. When the Irish people had been treated on an equality
with the English—could any Noble Lord point out to him a
period in the history of the two countries, anything which
could at all show that Ireland had been treated as fairly and
as liberally as England ? No ' • it was quite out of the power
of Noble Lords to do any such thing, and until her Majesty's
Roman Catholic subjects were placed on an equality with Pro-
testants, Ireland would still have a right to demand further
concessions. Lord Grey's administration went out of
dice without the opportunity of completing their intentions.
Sir R. Peel's Government was formed at the end of 1834, and
was so speedily dissolved, that there was no time for him or his
Lord-Lieutenant to carry out their kindly disposed measures for
the benefit of the people. Then came the Government of
Lord Melbourne, under which those measures of conciliation
were taken which made Mr. Sheil a Privy Councillor, and gave
Mr. Moore O'Ferrall a place at the Admiralty. During the
whole of the five years which followed, the cry of repeal died
away. In 1841 a contested election took place for the city of
Dublin. There were two candidates on what was called the
liberal side, and two on the other. On the one side there was
Mr. O'Connell, and on the other Mr. Hutton, the declared
enemy of repeal ; and yet at the close of the poll Mr. Hutton
was within ten votes of Mr. O'Connell, who was the very head
of the repeal movement. What would be the case now if a
candidate were to start for that city? Would it be believed
that he would gain twenty votes. If the Government had
adopted five years ago the same conciliatory tone which they
had afterwards taken up, they would have had an easy task;
but it was declared that concession had reached its utmost
limit, and what the result had been their Lordships had seen.
These men had been placed in office. They were men of
unblemished character, men of the highest honour, but they
had been disregarded. But he would only say that it was to
him no wonder that the cry of repeal had been raised.
The Irish people had learned that they were to get nothing by
voluntary concession, and they thought that their only appeal
was to force. He did not wish to touch on any irritating topic
—(" Hear, hear," from the Ministerial benches)—he might
say something of the monster meetings, he might say some-
thing of the Irish prosecutions, and of the way in which they
were conducted. He might say something also of the way in
which they were concluded.--( Hear, hear.) But he was glad
to see that for the future the Irish people were not to be
treated as aliens in politics and religion. He was glad to see
that the Noble Lord opposite was likely to have a long tenure
of office.—( Hear, hear, and a laugh.) The Government last
year had carried the Dissenters Chapel Bill. They had this
year carried the Maynooth Bill by large majorities, and they
had it now in their power,with the support of his own side of the
House, to carry other measures equally useful, and he trusted
that that would ultimately be effected for which he had always
contended—the endowment of the Roman Catholic priest.
hood. Yet though it might induce a large exclusion from
office of himself and his friends, he should still rejoice at the
advancement of a generous and friendly policy towards
Ireland.
The Bishop of LLANDAFF said that the old principles of
supporting the royal family on the throne had been so brought
iu question, that the term of concession had reached its limits
was a correct phrase. There were one or two points which
had been very erroneously stated, but so long as the principle
was upheld the connexion of the monarchy with the Protestant
religion must be maintained. These two points had been his-
torically misstated. There was but one church, one faith,
one creed in the world ; and though they might differ as to
which was the purest church, yet there was no question as to
the existence of the church. When, by what he must take the
liberty of calling--and what was in reality &dispensation of Provi-
dence—this country was freed from the tyranny of a man who
saw himself thwarted in some of his favourite views, the Church
reformed itself, and was not affected by any outward power. In
the early part of the time of Elizabeth the Church had been
established in all its purity, and every member of the faith
communicated with it. The church of Rome had thrown the
Church of England off. She had repudiated and excommuni-
cated all who partook of her rites. But the Church still went
on, and was not disturbed in any of her positions, so that it
was only simple error to say that the revenues of the Church
had been transferred to the other. When he called the Esta-
blished Church of this country a continuation of the ancient
church, he thought their earliest recollections would come in
to aid the position which he had put before them. This was done,
not by direct effect of authority, but by the vitality always ex-
isting in a Christian community they had continued the usages
of the Church after its polity was changed. It was an error then
to say that the revenues had been taken from one church and
transferred to the other, for it was all the same Church only
altered in features. There was one argument brouglat forward
in favour of the Bill which he could not give his sanction to,
namely that it was not the doctrines on which the grant was
conferred but the number of people who professed those doc-
trines. He thought that such an ar7,Uraent was one of the
most pernicious tendency. He w:suld not however detain
their Lordships any longer, but loelievin as he did that the
grant was inconsistent with 0-40 principles of the reformation,
inconsistent with the civil slid religious liberties of this country,
and an stmt of those no.'ole institutions which were established
previous to the oho s; of the illustrious family who at pre.
sent occupied the ',:nrone, he could not give his sanction to it,
and would therr,iore move that the Bill be read a third time
that day six months.
Lord CA MPBELL said that he was far from being an
enemy to the Protestant Church, and he did not consider that
any appropriation of its funds, such as he had suggested, would
in the least degree impair its usefulness.
fheEarl of EL LENBOROUGH did not concur with the Noble
and Learned Lord. He thought that the Church of England
and Ireland was one Church, and it would be as unjust that
the superfluities of York should go to supply the wants of
Cornwall or Kent, as that the funds of the Established Church
in Ireland should be taken to supply the Catholic religion
there. He thought that such a proposition was unjust; and he
intreated the Noble Lord, and all who concurred with him, to
pause before they entertained such a suggestion. If once they
countenanced so monstrous a proceeding it was impossible to
say what would be the end of such an unprecedented interfe-
rence with the just rights of the Established Church in Ire.
land.—( Hear, hear. )
The Earl of SHREWSBURY said that reliious controversy
ought to be eschewed in that House ; but heg could not v , as a
Catholic, allow the denunciations which had been frequently
poured out in the course of the present debate against the
Catholic religion, to pass without recording his decided protest
against them. This religion, he it remembered, numbered
among its followers, both in times past and at present, the
most illustrious men the world ever saw, and he would ven-
ture to say that it would continue to do so for all tin,o
come. If Noble Lords who had alluded, with mu to
ch
eloquent vituperation, to the doctrines taught
had moved that a copy of the "Catechism of the Council
Maynooth,
of Trent, which had been published in
of that College, should be placed on th., table, or in the hands
of every Member of their Lordshi- . '.829, by a professor
House, an opportunity
would be given to sift those.
made. It was really mo.ustruus, however, to state, as
garges which had been
many of their Lord.stiips had done, without the
least proof of such an assertion, that all who were
professors of that r".stigion were sunk in superstition and idol-
Ho was Catholic not only in obedience to the church
and, he d,
atry.,
who inculeat'4 that faith, but from a serious investigation,
and a cute
'rd
of the truth of the Catholic religion aged those Lords who had indulged in these calum-
nr.s misrepresentations, to substantiate a single one of them.
:se could not help also contrasting the conduct of the Catholic
Afembers of that House, when speaking of the Protestant re-
ligion, who, although twelve in number, never, as far as he
knew, allowed a single word to escape them disparaging the
doctrines of that religion. He should not have dwelt upon
this part of the subject at all, but from the pertinacity with
which those charges had been reiterated, and which, though
refuted a thousand times over and over again, were still
jbrought forward with all the freshness of novelty. He would
ust briefly allude to one or two of the misstatements which
had been made in reference to the doctrines taught at May-
nooth.—The Noble Lord then read a document purporting
to come from a body calling themselves the Censors of the
Anti-Maynooth Committee, which states, that there are eleven
works containing doctrines of a persecuting tendency read as
class-books in Maynooth, and it turned out that only three of
the books which they enumerated were read there, and only as
books of reference, and the doctrines which were contained in
them were precisely opposite to those which were taught in the
regular class-books of Maynooth. The Noble Lord then re,
ferred to a passage in " Menochius," one of those books of re-
ference, where an inference is drawn that Christ sanctioned the
doctrine of putting heretics to death. So far (continued the
Noble Lord) from concurring in such an opinion, or in any
passages of a similar tendency, they were not only objected to,
but strongly deprecated by the authorities and professors of the
College, and are never referred to unless for the purpose of
refutation. He might as well say, that because Cranmer
burnt the Socinians, the present humane and virtuous Primate
was anxious to try his hand upon the same ex-
periment. And he might go on suggesting cases of
this nature ; but he would only content himself by
remarking that there would be always these notions in dispute
between the two Churches. All he asked the House, there-
fore, was to give the same right of thinking and exercising
their opinions upon these matters to the Roman Catholics, as
they gave to the Protestants. The Catholic clergy were un-
exampled in the discharge of their religious duties, and un-
surpassed, if not unequalled, in their loyalty, but still, Noble Lords
had been unmeasured in their abuse of them and the Jesuits
of France. If the people of Ireland wanted any strong ground
for repeal, it was to be found in the language which had been
indulged in by some Noble Lords on this question. itut he
wished to depart from these attacks to say a few words
on the principle of this measure.—( Hear, hear.) It
would be remembered that the tenets which were so
obnoxious to some Noble Lords, were some time ago proscribed
by the laws of this country, and what was it that had placed
them in their present position ? It was not any alteration in
their Lordships' opinion that had produced the change, but it
was because in Ireland the influence of the Catholic commu-
nity had gradually increased, until the Government of the
country were unable to refuse them their rights. Their first
grant to Itlaytiooth was based upon that principle, and the prin.
ciple had ever since been gradually advancing. The question
before them was not one of polemics. It was a
question of
popular rights. Were it a question of polemics, he would
have precisely the same right as the Noble Lord, who moved
an amendment on a former occasion, every time an Eccle-
siastical Bill came before them, to demand that the
doctrines of the Establishment be inquired into and explainen.
But it was not a question of polemics, but one of right and
justice; and if their Lordships refused even to sanction the
measure, it would be;tantamount to returning to their illiberal
and unwise system of dealing with Roman Catholics. It
therefore only remained for him to thank the Government for
having brought the measure forward, and to urgently entreat
th snow in its last stage ant to relax in their efforts to carry
it.
The Duke of MANCHESTER spoke a few words in ex-
planation.
The Duke of NEWCASTLE wished to know whether the
Government had authorized the Governor of Malta to con-
sent to the establishment of a Jesuit college there ?
Lord STANLEY replied that a representation had been
made to Government from Malta, of the great defi-
ciency of establishment, for education in that island, which had
rendered it necessary for the inhabitants to send their children
to be educated in Italy and Sicily. Under these circumstances