The Sun.
London, England, 1842-04-20 00:00:00

dered it incumbent upon his Right Hon. Friend to support
the Corn-law League.—( Laughter. )
Mr. COBDEN—I charg,ed him with cheering.
Sir R. PEEL—Sir, I think such charges as these are miser-
able modes of carrying on a debate in the House of Commons. '
—( Hear, hear.) Then it is said that we on this side of the
House circulated the speech of the Hon. INlember for Knares-
borough throughout the country. Now, all I can say upon that
is, that I have never heard of the circulation of that speech,
and that lam not answerable for it. I think that such charges
are really absurd. 1 think it would be much better that these
subjects of cheering and smiling and circulating speeches should
be disposed of in some other way than in a grave and important
debate in the House of Commons.—( Cheers and laughter. )
1 his is the first motion of which notice has been given by the
Hon. Gentleman, and I am now prepared to state what course
lam ready to pursue with respect to it. I am now
prepared to deal with this question upon the principle
on which I think the House of Commons ought to deal with
it, and I do not think it would be just. for the House of Corn-
mons to lend its inquisitorial powers for the purpose of conduct-
ing such an examination. It that were the case, whenever an
Hon. Gentleman on either side of the House had made a charge
against some particular party, the House of Commons would
be exp: cted to examine into its truth or falsehood. —( Hear.)
We are to determine whether the inquiry shall be instituted
upon other grounds. Now the first proposal of the Hon. Gen-
tleman is to inquire into the existence of frauds in the various
manufactori, s of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ire- I
land. I should be very sorry to be a member of that Committee.
Li the first place, I could not acquiesce in such an imputation
upon the great body of manufacturers in this country. For
the Hou,e of Commons to presuppose that the manufacturers of
this country have, without exception, been concerned in the
commission of fraud is what I cannot consent to.—( Hear. )
I have not the slightest doubt that there are frauds committed
in manufactures—l have not the least doubt of it; and so long
as the world exists, there will be fraud, there will be disho-
nesty, and no laws which you can pass will be sufficient to pre-
vent it.—( Hear, hear. ) The security you have against fraud
is in free competition, and in the preference which, in the long
run, the honest dealer will have over the fraudulent. Precau-
th ns of this kind, when taken against fraud, very often defeat
themselves. The party who buys the article relaxes in that
natural vigilance and circumspection which he ought al-
ways to exercise. —( Hear, heass ) When I first went
to Ireland I found that there had been frauds in
the butter trade. A butter taster was therm appointed ; not a
firkin was allowed to go out until It had first been tasted, and
there was then a stamp placed upon it to show that it was
genuine.—( Laughter.) People then bought the butter, taking
its quality for granted, because it had been submitted to the
butter taster. The consequence was, that frauds %vers.:prac-
tised to a greater extent than they had ever been practised
before, because there was a genes al absence of that caution and
vigilance which had been previously exercised.—(Hear, hear. )
Depend upon it the natural interest of the purchaser is the
great security against fraud, and another security is that in-
tegrity and honesty all in the long run, both with respect to
the home consumer and the foreign consumer, ultimately sell
tile cheapest article, and secure the greatest profit. It is difficult
exactly to determine what fraud is. I'ou call goods manufactured
at Glasgow, at Manchester, and at other places in this country
by a foreign name ; you imitate articles of foreign manufac-
tures. Thse may, in one sense, be designated frauds. It is
quite clear that the knife which is sold for a penny is, in ono
sense, a fraud upon the purchaser; but it is necessary to pro-
duce this cheap article for the accommodation of those who
cannot give a higher price. Therefore, in the frost place, I
should object to any imputation on the manufacturing interest
of this c untry. I firmly believe that in the main it is
exempt from that imputation, and I never could consent to
hold out to other nations that the House of Commons had I
thought it necessary to institute an inquiry into the frauds
generally of the manufacturers of this country. Now the
inquiry in which we are about to enter, limited as it is by
my Right Hon. Friend, is an inquiry of which I think it is
very d.fficult to foresee the conclusion. I have had sonic cape-
rience of inquiries into the effects of the t uck system. It must
! be admitted that it is desirable, prima
,facie, to pass a law that
all persons should receive payment for their labour in the cur-
rent coin of the realm. But you will find that there are many
c ses to which that principle can scarcely be applied. I think
her Majesty's Government are the largest truck •masters. They
undertake to supply both the army and the navy with clothes;
that undoubtedly is an exception. Therefore you must put a
limitation upon the principle that reward for labour must he in
' the current coin of the realm.—( Hear.) In the course of this
inquiry I have no doubt you will find gross frauds; we cannot
be free from them in the present state of society. —( Cries
of " Hear, hear.") Nosy I cannot conceive anything so
bad as the conduct of the master, who in violation of the law
abuses the power which he has over his workmen, by com-
pelling those workmen to buy of him inferior articles at the
full price. I believe you will find that that practice exists ;
and I must say that I cannot conceive a moue unwarrantable
abuse of power. lam very much afraid that the answer is not
a complete and satisfactory one that where there is a
very full demand for labour, there is an end of fraud.
Because, observe, where the master and the workman necessa-
rily reside in certain localities, the demand for labour may be
brisk, and yet the master may have an opportunity of abusing
his power over his workmen by the practice of the truck system.
If you can expose and prevent that abuse of power,
I shall heartily rejoice in that result. But then
on the other hand, you will find this : You will
find the case of a mine opened in a mountainous dis-
trict, and far removed from any town, where the workman has
no alternative, but to go from four to five miles for his
provisions, and has a reduction made on account of his loss
of time ; you will find the case of a master,: from a considera-
tion of the interest of their workmen, consenting, at a loss
to themselves, to establish a shop for the purpose of enabling
his workmen to purchase his food without going so great a dis-
tance ; you will find that in some cases the charge for provi-
sions is fair and reasonable, and that very great advantages
arise from the system. If it is contrary to law it ought not to
exist, but you must not be too strict in applying the principle
that the employers should pay their wages in current coin.
Well then, again, with respect to the employers of rural labourers.
I believe many people look back with regret to the i eriod
when the farm labourer lived in the same house as his em-
ployer, believing that there was then a better security for the
morals and good conduct of the labourer than under the present
system. Such persons believed Irons the cessation of that
system under whish the labourer was considered as part. of the
family of his master,- but that practice necessarily implied
the truck system. While, therefore,, no man can reprobate
more than I do the abuse of authori;y on the part of that
master who compe s his workmen to purchase articles of him,
wkether they be good or bad, and still more who passes off
inferior aiticles, sod compels his workmen to pay for them an
exorbitant price—while 1 do this, I feel it my duty first to
notify to those who have had less experience of the matter than
myself, that the time when a full and comprehensive report
will be made is probably a very distant oto,. and secondly, to
warn them against concluding too hastily that they can, with
advantage to the working classes, entirely put an end to the
practice of paying wages upon what is called the truck system.
Mr. PLIJ.NIPTRE had been in many cotton manufac-
tories, and he believed it was the usual practice to thicken cer-
tain cotton goods with flour. With respect to the other goods
alluded to by the Hon. Member for Knaresborough, such as
watches of a very inferior description, and cloths made of
dust, he believed that although such inferior articles were manu-
factured, they were sold at extremely low prices, and therefore
there could be no complaint on that subject.
Mr. R. YORKE considered the proper form of the resolu-
tion was that proposed by the Hon. Member fur Knares-
borough, and he should therefore support it.
Sir JOHN GUEST supported the motion, and stated that
in the borough of Monmouth, where there was 014 C of the
largest works in the world, there was not a single instance in
which the truck system was practised.
Mr. Ald. COPELAND supported the motion.
Mr. E. TURNER said he could state confidently that the
whole of the wages in the county of Cornwall were paid in
money..._. _ _

Mr: VILLIERS said, that as he had taken upon himself to
call upon the Honourable Gentleman opposite t• substantiate
the charges he had made, he felt that consistency required
him to snpport the present motion.—( Hear, hear.) The
Honourable Gentleman had alluded in his speech to the me
morial which he (Mr. Villiers) had endeavoured to read to the
House from the manufacturers of Yorkshire. Having first
presented a petition, which the Hon. Gentleman objected to,
because it did not include the parties whom ho had charged,
he subsequently received one from the Hon. Gentleman's own
district, and that he might knew who the parties were he had
published it with their names and residences in a public news-
paper. He thought, therefore, that the Hon. Gentleman could
not consistently withdraw his motion.
Mr. hARDY did not know if they were to inquire into
frauds in England and Ireland what sort of frauds they should
have to investigate, but he was certain, if they once began it
there would be no termination. Frauds on foreign purchasers
would, in the end, nre itself ; but the other part of the inquiry
was certainly very important—that was the frauds said to be
committed on the people employed by the manufacturers. If
th s were the ca e, it was high time the inquiry should be
made ; it was due to those who were not represented in that
House. He knew of instances in which masters had established
shops, at their own loss, for the accommodation of
their workmen, to prevent their being oppressed and
cheated by small shopkeepers. In the case of the
iron works, that had been mentioned by the worthy
Alderman behind him, it would be a great convenience to the
workmen. The investigation recommended to the lion. Gen-
tleman by the Hon. Secretary, would be practicable, and he
should vote for such an inquiry. If the lion. Member went
beyond that he would certainly fail.
Dr. BOWRING said he should not have risen, but for
some of the observations that had fallen from the Hon. Mem-
ber for Knaresborough. Similar observations had already done
serious damage to trade and commerce, by representing that
the goods of English manufacturers were elan inferior descrip-
tion. Some statements of the Hon. Member had been widely
circulated, anti used to the injury of their manufactures,
to an extent of which the Honourable Gentleman
might not be aware. lie felt bound to state that the
general character of English merchants and manufacturers
stood as high as any of the same class in other countries.
He had had opportunities of seeing it placed in advantageous
contrast with the character of merchants of other countries.
The Hon. Member had referred them to the old and absurd
legislation with regard to manufactures. The Statute-book
wit full of these interferences with the freedom of trade, and
in many places manufactures had actually perished in con-
sequence of that interference. What they wanted was eman-
cipation from enthralment with regard to manufactures, and to
that alone could they trust for safety.
Sir C. BURRELL thought the Hon. Member for Knares-
borough had been completely justified in the course he had
taken, and he did not think that he was liable to the taunts
that had been thrown out against him. He had done his duty
manfully and fearlessly, and with great honour to himself.
Mr. PERRAND replied, lie doubted whether the Stand-
ing Order of the House, whieh was said to render his second
resolution unnecessary, would be sufficient to protect the work-
ing man giving evidence before the Committee. However,
he should accept the offer of the Right lion. Baronet with re-
spect to the truck system, and leave the manufacturers to
fight out the question themselves as to the frauds in trade.
They might depend on it that this question would not be al-
lowed to rest, but that from day to day there would be more
urgent demands for inquiry.
The amendment to the resolutions propsed by Sir James
Graham was then put and agreed to.
CHINIINAL LAW (IRELAND).
Mr. Sergeant JACKSON a oved for leave to bring in a
Bill to assimilate the law of Ireland, as to the punishment of
death, with the law of England ; to abolish the punishment of
death in Ireland, in certain cases ; and to emablish other pun-
ishments in lieu thereof. The lion and Learned Member
stilted that one case, in w!ich it was proposed to abolish the
put ishment of death in Ireland, was this : —At a time when
they were at war with France an Act was pasted, punishing
with death any person, in the service of the French King, who
might land in Ireland. lie apprehended that there could be no
oljecton to the repeal of that law.
Leave was given to bring in the Bill.
THE GRINDING ACT.
Mr. HUTT moved fir a Select Committee to consider the
expediency of renewing any of the provisions of the Act of
George IV., commonly called the Grinding Act, and and r
what modifications.—Agreed to.
LOGAN NAVIGATION.
Lord ELIOT moved for leave to bring in a Bill for vesting
the Logan Navigation in the Commissioners of Public Works
in Ireland.

IRISH TURNPIKES.
The NOBLE LORD brought up the Irish Turnpike Trust Bill,
which was raad a first time, and ordered to be read a second
time on Monday