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London, England, 1808-01-23 00:00:00

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■

Provides!
hcnouri and that it was a sacred duty to endea-
- attain it. Our advantages from it would be
than, that of our ene-
, evidence
expedition to

, had in-
to bring
against
AS Majesty n.., his re-
againstluctancepennahaaryki,naga
same time his congratu-
lations the same
_ _ hostilely
tion, the House had no other course
similar
to the country on the success
toof
pursue,
to e in their answer to his Majesty a re-
ueez,Pebdiut-
luctance, and a similar congratulation. He thought
it was impossible that the Government of this coun-
try
posecoulsonsde b:onficatedoeonin, if the were not
yfn jteostyre,s-
peech. If it should -afterwards turn out that Mini-
ster, had put untrue assertions in his Majesty's
Speech, they were responsible for it ; but it was too
much to question the truth of such assertions, before
procoduluodinb;aandvthaencinfedonnforaetixopnrewhissinogh
a doubt.atlea
Ministers had received, it must be acknowledged by
any
yAs to reason
every man who was at all acquainted with the his-
tory of this country, that Government often posses-
sed that information which made it necessary for it to
act in the most decided manner, when, at the same
time, it would be highly imprudent to publish that
information in such a manner as might expose to the
enemy the sources from which it was derived, and
which might expose the lives of those who gave such
information. He himself knew the great difficulty
there was- in obtaining information, and as a plain
man, a eidfier addichujetrare in versa enagirtri," he must
caution the House not to be pressing for the disclo-
sure of information which came from secret sources.
Itt the time of the American war, there was an im-
prudent publication of intelligence which had been
received, relative to the sailing of the Toulon fleet; and
the consequence was, that the enemy found out, and
stopped a source from which we had long derived im-
portant intelligence, through Holland. He, for his part,
gave credit to his Majesty's declaration, as to the ne-
cessity of the measure, in consequence of the informa-
tion which had been received. He shrewdly suspec-
ted, that there was a collusion between France and
Denmark ; but whether there was or not, if it were
evident that Denmark was not strong enough to re-
sist the violence of France, after the representationst
we had made, and the option we had given, we were
justified by the first of all laws, that of self-preserve.-
um, to seize upon that fleet which our enemy wank
have turned against us. It was absurd, and like the
language of school-boys, to be talking at this time of
the day about abstract principles of right' when. we
THZ ADDRESS. knew that the enemy with whom we were contending
Lord HAMILTON brought up the report of the never suffered any of those abstfact principles of
address to his Majesty. right to restrain him; but rather seemed to prefer .the'
Mr. MACDONALD expressed his surprise at the abstract principle of wrong. He thought the conduct
statement of the Secretary of State the other night, of Ministers in this instance as decisive as it was sec
who had declared, that no further information, as to cessful ; and as to the cause of the country, with "rit;'
the grounds of the expedition to Copenhagen, was to spect to this expedition, if every man were to lay his
be given, while he, at the same time, required a de- hand upon his heart, and pronounce a verdict front
cision on that point. It was true, the eyes of Europe his conscience, he for one should say, that it Was...
were fixed upon the British Parliament; but so much o not guilty" of any thing deserving blame, and that
y it had acted as imperious necessity required. do-
the more did it concern that Parliament not to do an
thing that should disgrace it in the eyes of Europe. vernment had proposed to Denmark this option, that
As no information had been given by Ministers, on if they would give up their fleet, as a. deposit,tut&
the grounds of their conduct towards Denmark, it the conclusion of peace, the army we had in the Bal-
must be considered, on the general principle and the tic (near 20,000 men), should be employed to protect
them against France. In the circumstances of Den-
facts known. The armament of the Danes could
not be considered as hostile, because the preparations mark, this proposition was no insult ; and he verily
in their harbours could net have been begun in the believed, that if he had been a Dane, he should not
interval between the treaty of Tilsit and the sailing of have thought it disgraceful to surrender the fleet upon
the expedition ; and the dispositions of the Danish those terms, and under those circumitanees. As ID
arming exhibited rather a jealousy of the designs of peace, although it might be possible to obtain one
France, than those of Great Britain. With regard which would not be dishonourable, he doubted very
to some other points, he would say nothing till the much the possibility of obtaining one which could be
papers were produced. As to the subject of peace, secure. The only ground of a secure 'peace appear.
he thought that the Ministers laid too much stress on cdto be a footing of perfect equality ; and to mai*
forms. teal that equality, it would be necessary that it shoal
Mr. FULLER did not think it fair that attacks he an armed peace. He deprecated the promoting
should be made on Ministers, with regard to the af- petitions for peace, which he thought might do a
fair of Copenhagen. If the same course had been great deal of mischief, but which could not possibly
pursued with respect to the Spanish fleet, the battle of be productive of any good.
Trafalgar would not have been fought, and we vroulB Mr. WINDHAM concurred in . general with the
not have lost the immortal Nelson. It was true we Wight Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, in
had evacuated Copenhagen, because we could not deprecating petitions from the country a
great deal for peace, for
l of
keep it, (hear ! hear ! ) and the French might in the they could do no good, and may do
winter have entered England. He was only sorry that harm, in the course in which this country should
Ministers had not seized every bird that hovered about conduct itself in this great and delicate operation ;
the transactions at Tilsit. Whatever the other side yet considering the state and condition of the persons
of the House might say about the allegations of Crown who were the most forward in promoting such peti.
Princes or Half-Crown Princes (a laugh) we ought to lions, it was impossible -for 'be 'House not to'syMpa-
believe our own Ministers. Let them go on to do thin with their feelings ;at the ,saxne time it was im-
their duty, and they would always have his support. possible, too, not to see that front their information,
Mr. HIBBERT observed, that the petitions far and also from the natural bias under which they
peace were the result not of party instigations, but of acted, they proceeded without any other rule what-
the distress of some part of the people. The negoci- ever than that of their own immediate wishes. He
ation of the late Ministers had, by a few, been termed felt as other Gentlemen did, and even went beyond
disgracefal,hut from ao negociation had this coma- most of them, on this subject. As to what was said
try for a long time come out with so much honour.— on the question of peace, that any peace which this
The present Ministers had, by their expedition, dis- country should accept should be an honourable peace,
graced the country without either necessity or ability. be-was of opinion that we could not hive such a
Mr. M. A. TAYLOR said, that from the affair peace. It did not come into his yiew ; and he did
of Copenhagen he felt disgraced as an Englishman. .w, as he had done long ago, leave honour out of
He entered into a statement of the proceedings vela. the question in the consideration of peace. All he
tive to the Yorkshire petition, and observed, that the wanted was, a peace that might give us Security.
delegates in their application to him for his opinion, Having that, he woold give up any notion of
had observed, that they were not more distressed. by Honour :
the war than by the Orders in Council. He had ad. Give us, kind Dulness, Memory, and rhimpt,
vised them not to petition for peace, and had, there:- Well put off pan to another time !
fore, refused to be their Chairman. He thought.thar " I look to nothing (said he) but to that- WW2 ap-
negociations were actually going on at the time. If pears to me to be of advantage to my country. What
they sm.a of opinion that the present Ministers had benefit can I have by war it brings to me neither ho-
acted improperly, he avowed that be advised them to
but
rthneorinptererofistt.
oflnllooy
okountryto no*; ithrigatinintepiteacstecoran waionly,
petition for their removal.
Mr. EDEN
meailin which lead to its security and
required explanation of one
I prefer peace to war, or way to peace, as the one or
part a be promoted by
tile. Speech. It was there said. ilkattds Majestywas.
informed of a general ccmfedeeation to force all the , 'the other is likely to promote tkax security. /lilt what
weaker powers to take a part agthre Great Britain, has been said cn:the question afinoralioy, deserves, in
and that it then became a duty to pout that. .But loy opinion, a great deal of the attention of this
:
the Treaty of Tilsit was signed on the 7th of J41-; 1.1-louse.„, lam much eoneetned for thetountenance
intelligence and a copy of it !tacked this countryon• !which seems now about tb be, trienby Miiisters in
the Sat of August only, and yet PA the 96th of July this country tocertain docutiks. This appears to me

, Fos
areeiregi:74 Hundreds Therein-- ,
'the Right Honourable Richard Ryder, appointed a Lord of the
Treasury ; and fee Yarmouth, in the room Jerrobe Clarke Jer-
voiae, Esq. deceitful.
Mr. Grant, from the Office of the Comndlalnuen of Military
Inquiry, presented the fifth report of the said Oossunissionses,
which was laid oa the table.
Sir Francis Burdett, Bart. and another Hen. Member took the
oaths and their wits.
The usual standing Orders of the House were read and
agreed to.

'ID. S

very 213mila:thing ; and,
igtutude of the question of peat/
t .e character and reputation
\greater. If Minister; have rece
which justified their conduct, T
wive us some account of it.
. oat is an important question
thiiik that question is, I do sic
as the doctrine by which Ministers
rants endeavour to maintain
uct in the expedition to
adperiod in which it appears
to take leave of our old moral
bar old adherence to old mor""
a new code of morality from
like individual's, may think 1
convenience in a departure,
(roes the rides of sound morality
idirgis led to the ruin of those "
that system; and if it be so of
so to nations in a course of time
an- aggregate of individuals.
maxims are very fine things, bi
them on particular occasions
for departing from them on
pleases you to do so. This is
power 9(r:totality, which, like
gate,. tends to render what it ,
colons. I say this is the most
dining State, the most dreadful
and worse than any profligacy
tally, while k is not defended
as it was ,wellobserved by an
I should. be -happy to hear
(Mr. Eden), that in the present
before the cause ; so I would
never thoroughly depraved
theory with practice, instea,
subservient to its theory. V,
the reach of repentance for the
until we make our theory bend
beyond redemption, for our prim
our inducement to repent
thought this was refinemem
into the fashion of the day,
maxims, I am sure we shall
for it is a system at which the
to nothing ; for if there shout,
a tolerable steadiness in the
morality, yet there will be in
morality, a regard for right
wrong, that will soon make t
the code of morality which ono
morals. If the country must ►
but do not let it be said that
Of morality, in hopes to save ,
failed in it; that we betook outsell
and to all species of injustice,
save ourselves; for then we shall
if we preserve our integrits-
even in our ruin. I think a
ted by Gentlemen, who in
portant event in the annals I
aside the national character
the great resource which we .
we were assailed from every
which, by this expedition, will
ever, unless some proof be
iessity. That Governmen,
obliged to act upon evidence
wards disclose, I am ready
be cases in which, if you act,
in acting, but you cannot
and therefore you will be censured
then it is a question of pru,"
a& at all ; . and that, I think,

•
your policy would have been .
acting, even if your information
for I think you have lost -
have gained." He added
of the same kind ; and observernem
sters did not raise their force
made the expedition to suit
vident sailors, who, when they
" how shall we spend it ?"
Mr. MATTHEW KO:
from the last Right Han
thought the whole of this
able to the present Administration
Administration, of which the R.
tieman was one, would have
to Constantinople had succeeded
it had, its advocates would have
same arguments as those which
the present.
Mr. WILLIAM SMIr.
thought that petitions for
raged, because they tended t,
in their endeavours to obtain
had told his constituents at 7
for peace, and a petition for
tinct things. If Ministers
desire to negociate for peace,
assailed from every quarter
should do every thing he could
Lions. In such a case,
pelled tb endeavour to negociate
ought to be.compelled to make -
would negociate.
Mr. Secretary CANNING admitted,
ing to statements of dates, the Treaty of
not arrive' in this country before the expedition -
penhagen was prepared ; but the substance of t-
arrangements of the secret parts of that Treaty, '
matter of which Government had been apprised
fore ; and much of the armament, prepared for ceir
objects, was employed in this.
Mr. WHITBREAD took occasion to ream itis
application for some information upon thii scbycn
He wished to know whether in reality Governed
possesied any thing more by way 'of informall°,
than they had communicated already on the
of the Copenhagen Expedition, for he suspected .g 1
did not. He maintained that the Danes had a
to say we had no intention of defending them agt
1
France at any time; for the moment we had tiad
from them their fleet, we left Zealand to the Fteel.
As to Petitions for Peace he differed from his
friends (Mr, Windham end Air. Wm. Smith), ft%
'thought that every -part of the country oUght,ana.
hoped that every part of the country would. Pen°
for Peace.
The Address was then read, agreed to, and cell
to be Presented' to his t 5y such Memb!sAk
the VoSass as are of lais Maiesty'a Most H°4llNif Cesiaca.--Adjourned.to Monday next.

• beent. .
A
aver
rAMES EDWARD, Doemeke.•: • The Im • :111.53h Ambastedor, M. erpowns.giewhatei-or
IF there are any Chita. on' the Estate .of the late scoomerrivedfseetiledaybeforeyesterday,an4ipaliktit • "on of phambphy to tic ght t.e
all• JANIS EDWARD, Of Fitchees-ceort, Noble-street, Warehouse- to. his flea audience of his Majesty Vs!) Eats .be admitted on all hark • that the, cause great
man (who deceased on the 15th of April hat) not yet Ikuidated, it
is required that a statementbe tranamkted to Mrs. Heal, 26, peror: He inhabits' the hotel ef Prince Walchobtliqw ' to precede the effect, and: ye here fittillect whicl
Wood-street, Cbeapside, sole Executor, before the 15th day of which Government haebought foithat purpose' for preceded the cause. . • •-• ~ to gi,
that • was the That
April next, that they may be =ambled and discharged.' 860,000 rubles. Mr. PYM eaPreiseallis °Pinion, -----ace
Jan. 50,1606. • A few days back a dueltook place between Count interest of all parties, provided it could be secured think
TO MAGISTRATES, PROFESSIONAL-MEN, and drugs,: Chreptowitsch, Lord Chamberlain, and Colonel Ar- with hcnour, and that it was a sacred duty to endea- as th
CAPPER's Tome-illumine-an 'DICTIONARY of senslmw, in which the latter was killed on the spot.— your to attain it. Our advantages from it would :be rents
GREAT BRITAIN, IRELAND, and the other Bridals The dispute originated in a love affair. equal tn, or perhaps greater than, that of our ene- cond
Islanda, will be ready for Delivery to the Public on Monday" the
Ist of February, in one very kris Volume, octavo; cloudy 11.4RLI4IIKENTART PROCEEDINGS: before the Hourly ID approve of the expedition to to nal
accompanied by 56 newly-drawn MArs, price Hs. In hoards. es'
sig. with the Maps coloured. Denmark. our
Tisk Work has been originally compiled from ParliaMeaturp., HOUSE OP COMMONS, FRIDAY, JANUARY 22. Mr. YORKE thought that after Ministers-had hi- a nel
°Acid, and other Modern Authorities; and is the most complete New Witis weeo for the fo places: formed the House of the designs of France to bring like
and comprehensive Description of every County, District, Parish, For Castle Ridstgois the room of the Hon. Laseelles ; for the Poerers of Portugal and to act against cony
and Place, within the British [sheds, that has eves been published. Tregony, in the reseed Godfrey Wentweilds; Esq. • who have 'this country, ' after his Majesty had expressed his re. from
Bridge-street, Jan. 14, MIL • accepted the Chairs liindreds ; for liverion, In ;he room of
......ineeet .../ ltmtance at having
_been obliged. to..xct hostilely alwa

great as I •1
peace or warn,
n of this count,,
ceived any inf
they
Perhaps the v ha ef a
onl
h;tPc but il"l"tar't
h S.
not think it
theirs •
Red 1
misters
the propriety of
Cyear
t
ora
• al
th
ey
tayinheinala°SotPendiuCthhlthFvii3alliarnre---gen:thiglohettseafa.!nlaito.re;'lll6:l'..,,!..::,,....
in some spec. :• Cent.
rii
of
is
ncralitY ; but that
Cast
individuals who ,
ieod
ipae ; fora nation; •. C
ls. Jf you sa-, ' •tl
y•
to
but we must depart,
specien,.
sM
ce the oath taken a
t professes, perfectly sasi
rest fatal system of ;
adful of all Rem ;
cy that may occur . a
led upon principle,
t Hon. Gentleman,
r oftener in this R. al"
resent case the effect :
>uld say, that a Stie
until it accommodial•
id of keeping its mktapt
We shall never be ved
the errors of our peac.;,,„
rad to it, and then weT. a
principles being coma „, ,• e
is fled. Besides,
nt, and that we must I
•, and laugh at 211 molt '.
11 make a bad haw at it,
the French will laa
mld be in the Comet it
• new code of corder/if* ti
in this country a hello -
ht, and an abhoneacti •
us-pear very clumsy' .4
teaches us to despise pi Bri
Ist be undone, let it it; ,
twe took up a fake spa
e ourselves from ruin, ett;
,urselves to violence,*
ire, and after all cookie • zit
shall fall unpitied ;
ity, there will be a dig*
a great mistake is c. h
examining this mots is.
s of our whole history,la
er of this country; then 5
e had for our defence, tie i
very quarter • a &nue ,
will have bee; forfeirlit d
le given of its gook* r
lent have been fret sualf '
ce which it could araie
y to admit ; but there
tct, you have a justifustia
disclose your just**
:ensured for your emit;
udence whether pas adi 4
nk, is the present cane, and
been to have deird fins
mation justified pot act—
much more therm
other general Amain
,bserved further, that Va
we for this expeditiA,
uit their force ; like imp
they had got money, all
)NTAGU differed est*
3nourable Gentleman, tsi
expedition highly ham
tistration ; and that the la
the Right Honourable Get. •
me been glad the erpitos
needed in the same arf ;
d have defended it with is
which were urged to tiefol
TH agreed with those sio
• peace were to be dim
4.c1 to embarrass God
lain that object, and sole
ace, he hoped they wookll4
raotr aN iroV
occhia;tibuoiht awpetiiisertii
were not actuated
:ter with petitions, MI
could to promote such!,
Ministers shoal be 50,_
negotiate ; or if not, too
make way for others
NG admitted, that accord
s, the Treaty of Tilsitcsl
before the expedition to Co
• bur the substance of tie