The Sun.
London, England, 1845-06-28 00:00:00

man was, Suppose no railways were constructed, and that w e
were about to commence the formation of railways for the first
time, which gauge would you recommend ? To which Mr.
Walker replied, " the broad gauge certainly." This was very
different from recommending that the narrow gauge should be
torn up in every locality and the broad gauge substituted in
its stead.
POST-OFFICE ABUSES.
On the motion that the order of the day be read for the
House resolving itself into a Committee of Supply,
Mr. T. DUNCO3IBE rose, and moved, " That Returns,
No. 72 and 248, made by the General Post-office, be referred
to a Select Committee, with a view of inquiring into the accu-
racy of those returns; also into the present mode of remune-
rating by fees and perquisites certain officers of the General
Post-office, and how far the duties of that establishment may
be rendered more satisfactory to the public, and less
unequal and oppressive to the persons engaged therein."
This motion had no reference whatever to the questions which
had recently been the subject of discussion in that House.
At the close of the last session of Parliament he moved for a
return of every person connected with the Post-office, the date
of his appointment, the nature of his office, the duties he
performed, and the amount of salary he received. He subse-
quently moved for :a return relating to the letter-carrier's
fund. These returns, after much delay and great difficulty,
had at last been laid on the table. He was not, however,
satisfied with them, and he was desirous that they should be
referred to a Select Committee for the purpose of inquiring
into their accuracy. He maintained that there was inaccuracy
in those returns, which had not been made accidentally but
intentionally, with the view of deceiving the public as to their
true nature. He considered that the payment by fees instead
of a fixed salary of public servants in the employment. of the
Crown was a most improper system, and one which would
lead to great inconvenience and distrust, and in many
instances to cases of gross corruption, since he believed
that there was no public department, with the exception of the
Post-office, from which the system had not been repudiated.
With respect to the payment of fees to the letter-carriers, there
was not a single railway company who were not in the habit of
feeing the servants of the Post-office. He should like to know
en what principle the system of giving fees to the servants of
the Crown was upheld ? He would draw the attention of the
House, in a few minutes, to the manner in which certain duties
of the Post-office were performed—namely, to the mode in
which the early delivery of letters in the City was conducted.
There were certain districts marked out by the Post-Master..
General for the early delivery of letters, and he was ready to
prove that this was the grossest fraud upon the merchant and
tradesman that could be possibly conceived. This practice
had been complained of over and over again, by merchants
and other parties, to the authorities of the Post-office, and
recently a memorial hail been submitted to Lord
Lonsdale from the merchants and manufacturers of London.
The petitioners complained of the unfair distribution of the
early delivery, and believed it would not be sanctioned by law.
They also complained of the system of paying fees to the
postmen, which from some firms averaged, for quarterage,
amounts to 171. and 251. per annum. He thought that some
attention ought to have been paid to this memorial, and that
some answer ought to have been made to it, either by the su-
perior officers of the Post-office, but it seemed as if it had alto-
gether been done away with. Some of those merchants lived
three, four, and even five miles from the General Post-office,
and they received their letters earlier at their private resi-
dences than they did at their offices in the City. One gentle-
man, who lived on the other side of Blackfriars-bridge, received
hi. letters there earlier by half to three-quarters of an hour
than he did at his shop in Fleet-street, although he paid for
the early delivery there. The reason of this was, that the
letter deliverers in the outskirts were carried toward their
walks by carts or omnibuses, and were thus forwarded, whilst
the others, who had chiefly to supply the districts
which were not favoured with the early deliveries,
were left to sort what were called quarterlies and
shams. These advantages, he understood, were reserved
for the older servants of the Post-office, and one of
the juniors had been dismissed because he refused to submit
to the oppression which he conceived he suffered from not en-
joying a portion of the benefit. Another objectionable prac-
tice pursued in this office was, what was termed the " window
duty ;" a fee of some five or eight guineas paid by merchants
for obtaining an early delivery of their letters. Now, he
wished to know what right the Post-office department had to take
any money whatever beyond the one penny authorised by law, as
the uniform amount of postage; originally the fee was given as
a remuneration to the carrier, for the credit he gave on the
payment of letters, but since the change of system it was ren-
dered unnecessary, all letters, except foreign, being pre-paid.
By the present practice, however, Rowland Hill's system was
virtually annulled, and a door was opened to an extensive range
of fraud and deception. They would find in the return that
the senior letter carriers, who were forty years in the esta-
blishment, only received 14s. a week from the Crown, and the
juniors received from 20s. to 235. a week ; so that the longer a
man remained in the establishment the less the pay became.
Unless he had power and capital sufficient, and friends who
would give security for him, he might be twenty or thirty years
in the establishment, and instead of the pay being 30s. a week,
it would be only 14s. a week. There was no provision what-
ever for sickness. He might become superannuated if the Post-
master-General thought fit, and if he did not the postman
would have only 145. a week—Gs. less than he had before.
The Crown gave a salary of 201. a year to many who received
from 1001. to 1201. They threw every impediment in the
way of those merchants who did not submit to those taxes for
the early delivery. They caused the letters to come to them
as late as possiLle. He would read a statement which he knew
to be true, showing that this practice led to demoralisation and
to acts of dishonesty and corruption. There was one instance
admitted by the witness himself which showed the system pur-
sued. A gentleman, who was on the early list, told the post-
man that he did not require to have the early delivery any more.
" When the man told me this," said the witness, " I desired
him to go through his walk as usual, and to deliver that gentle-
man's letters last." Soon afterwards the gentleman said to
the postman that he thought he would take the early delivery
again. The man said, " I thought so, Sit ; I knew you would
find out the inconvenience."—( Hear, hear.) Now s hat a
fraud was this ?—( Hear, hear.) T. keep back the letters of a
merchant till the last to compel him to contribute those die-
graceful fees.—( Hear, hear.) It was a system which ought to
be done away with.—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear.")
No one could wonder that the men complained, and that the
public complained of it.—( Hear, hear.) The men did not
want those fees. They wanted to have adequate salaries accord-
ing to the recommendation of the Commissioners of Revenue
Inquiry. The men ought to be paid on a graduated scale,
proportioned to their cervices, and relieved from the necessity
of going round from door to door, begging for what were called
" Christmas boxes."—( Hear, hear.) Another great abuse
was, the manner in which that very able and useful work the
" Post-office Directory" was managed. The men, who did all
the work, and obtained all the information, derived little or no
emolument from it. The editor was Mr. Kelly, inspector of
letters, who stated in all his prefaces, except the last one, that
he was enabled, by the favour of the Postmaster-General, to
avail himself of peculiar resources, so as to render the
work the most complete of the kind in existence.
Now, he wanted to know whether the " Post-office Directory"
was an official or non-official work ? Was it a private or a
public speculation? If it was a private speculation, he wanted
to know what right any person had to employ the servants of
the Crown in a private speculatien ? If the work was a public
work, and belonged to the public, it ought not to be made the
subject of private speculation and gain. Mr. Kelly, in his evi-
dence, said that the work was carried on by a large private
capital, but was supported by official resources. Now, if it was
a private work and a private speculation, why should it be
supported by official resources ? Instead of 1,2001., the sum
realised by Mr. Kelly was nearly 8,000/. Was it right that
such an office should be held under those circumstances ? He
wanted to know if it was right to the fair and honest trades-
man ? For the large edition of the " Directory" the
charge was 30s. The letter-carriers, when they
go round, if they dispose of any copies, are al-
lowed ss. for each copy. The tradesmen get an
allowance of Os. ; the price charged to them being 24s
The book was thus charged 305., which, if left to the
public, might be supplied for ISs., and then yield a large profit.
He would ask, was it proper for these men to go about from
place to place soliciting orders in the manner they were now
doing ? He would place the letter-carriers in a more inde-
pendent position. He would lay down a scale of remuneration
for all those who were employed, founded on a graduated prin-
ciple, and of an efficient amount. He would propose that for
the first 5 years, they should be paid 701. ; from 5 to 10 years,
801. ; from 10 to 15 years, 90/. ; from 15 to 20 years, 100/. ;
and from 20 to 30 years, 1101. This scale of remuneration he
did not consider too much. At present the letter-carriers were
almost in a state of insubordination from being obliged to
leave copies of these books about. Besides, they were subject
to a penalty, for hawking books. About 200 copies of the
" Directory' found their way to the Post-office, for which
no doubt Mr. Kelly was paid ; and those, as soon as done
with at the end of the year, were sent back, when they were
again made use of for the succeeding year, and
sent out at half-price. If the work was a public work,
why did not the profits go into the revenue, as in other in-
stances of publications under the sanction of the Government ?
If the work was not a public but a private one, why did Mr.
Kelly issue such instructions to the subordinates as that be
held in his hand. 'lle Hon. Member here read several ex-
tracts from a printed list of instructions issued to the letter-
carriers, in relation to matters connected with the
" Directory." Upon that order coming out, the men issued
a counter-document. This address called upon the men to
say whether the order to which he had just referred was
made on anthorlty. Were they the servants of a bookseller
or the servants of the Queen. Were they to be the slaves
of a monopolist ? The address concluded by calling
on the men to start a Post-office Directory
of their own. Now, was it not disgraceful that such docu.
ments should have been posted up for one hour. There were
abuses existing in that establishment that required inquiry and
correction. He believed that they had only to be published
to be immediately corrected. It was for the House to say
whether the Committee, which he intended to move for, should
be granted or not, He did not blame either Lord Lonsdale
or Colonel Maberly for these unseemly practices. The com-
plaints of the aggrieved never reached their ears, but stopped
half way at Mr. Kelly. If, however, an inquiry were duly in-
st ituted, those high officers would, he believed, learn a state
of tsjranny and oppression practised in the inferior depart-
ment of which they were wholly unsuspicious. With a view,
therefore, to give them that information, and an opportunity
to redress the evil, he should conclude by moving the resolu-
tion of which he had given notice,
Captain PECHELL having had unusual opportunities of
knowing the grievances existing in the Post-office, but more
especially in reference to the transmission of mails to the
islands of Scilly, should support the appointment of the Select
Committee. The official returns showed that the mails to
Scilly had sometimes been detained six months before their
transmission and delivery in those islands, in consequence of
the gross neglect of Mr. Creswell, the Post-officer at Exeter.
The mails run most irregularly, chiefly owing to the bad arrange-
ments of the Treasury and the Post-office. One day or an-
other they must come to issue with the Admi-
ralty for the gross irregularities sanctioned by them.
In five months the Government absolutely expended 1,319/. in
the transport of those mails to Scilly, and the pay of the pilot
was actually more than the whole of the expense of the packets
by the previous arrangement. They had also proposed to send
those packets at such times as they thought proper, while other
places, such as Stornaway, of far inferior importance, had mails
every day. Then there was this difficulty in accomplishing
this object, and especially when they saw that the influence of
the illustrious Prince at the head of the affairs of the Duchy
of Cornwall could not remove it, he could not help coming to
a conclusion that there was tome agency behind the curtain
which ought to be removed ; and he trusted, therefore, that the
inquiry would be granted.
Mr. HUME said that before the question was formally
put, he wished to say a few words, as he had been the
person who had moved, seven years ago, for the
returns to which so much reference had been made.--
( Hear.) Several years ago the principle of receiving fees
in public offices had been inquired into, and put an end to.
Every establishment had been inquired into except the Post-
office, and he was quite sure that an inquiry into that estab-
blishment would be eminently useful, and he trusted therefore
that the Right Hon. Baronet would not object to the motion.
Hon. Gentlemen opposite had but little communication with
the City, and therefore they were not aware of the evils which
existed in the Post-office. No greater boon had ever been
conferred upon any country than the reduction to the
general penny-rate of postage, but the old apparatus was not
adapted to the new principle, and a great inconvenience waa
incurred by the rule of early delivery. It was but right that
all establishments, great and small, ought to be placed on the
same footing, for no advantage ought, in his opinion, to be taken
o a public establishment

The vote was then agreed to, as were also the following
sums :-208.5731., salaries for officers in the ordnance depart-
ment ; 117,5501., wages for do. ; '213,2461., for the land and
sea service ; 4h8,483!., for the repairs of erdriance and bar-
rack -stores ; 89,176/, for the expenses of the 'rower.
Sir C. NAPIER approved of the vote for keeping in repair
and improving the fortifications at Portsmouth and other places.
Captain BOLDER° explained, in reply to a question of Sir
Howard Douglas, that the Government were building chapels
at Weedon and other military stations, which expenses would
be included in the vote.
The vote was agreed to; as also was a sum of 62,753/. for
the scientific branch of the Ordnance department.
In answer to a question from Sir H. DOUGLAS, as to the
progress of the Government survey in Scotland,
Captain BOLDER() replied that 4,123 acres had been
surveyed.
The sum of 123,0831. for the non-effective service of the
Ordnance was next voted.
The next item was a sum of 47,328/. for the half-pay allow-
ance of officers of the Commissariat department, winch was
agreed to.
The sum of 112,116/. was then proposed to be voted for the
care of public buildings and gardens, including furniture, &c.
Mr. WILLIAMS objected to the vote, as he considered it
very extravagant.
The Earl of LINCOLN defended the vote.
Mr. BERNAL complained of the way in which the public
money had been applied in the purchase of pictures. He men-
tioned the fact of 600/. having been paid for a picture for the
National Gallery, attributed to Helbein, the celebrated German
painter, but which, he believed, had no title to be attributed to
his pencil.
Sir ROBERT PEEL explained that pictures bought for
the National Gallery were pictures of the highest repute. Still
he was willing to admit that some few might be of a doubtful
character, and had better not be there. The inferior pictures
to which he referred had generally been bequests by private in-
dividuals. The trustees bad lately come to the resolution not
to refuse any bequests, but with the understanding that such
pictures as they did not think proper to hang on the walls of
the institution should be in the hands of the trustees, to be
presented to any provincial town they might think fit,
that had a gallery ; the desire of the Government
being to create a taste among the public for the
fine arts. He admitted there had been a picture which was
attributed to a German artist, and painted three hundred
years ago, purchased for 600/ ; and though it was difficult to
decide whether a picture of such an age was a genuine produc-
tion, there were some grounds for supposing that the picture
was the work of Holbein. Still it was possihie the trustees
might have been mistaken, and, rather than a counterfeit
should be on the walls, they had withdrawn the picture. They
were now considering about calling in the assistance and skill
of the most eminent dealers in pictures and judges, to learn
how far the pictures were worth the prices affixed, and with
the view of having nothing but works of the highest order of
merit in the Gallery.
Mr. BERNAL had every confidence in the good taste of the
Right Hon. Baronet, but he must say that he had seen the
nation lose good paintings for a small sum. If the Right Hon.
I3aronet would walk down to Pall-mall, he would there find a
picture of the King of Saxony—a real Holbein--which had
been purchased for a very small sum. It was now in the Bri-
tish Institution. There were three pictures there by the first
masters, which had been purchased at very small sums. He
spoke comparatively.
Dr. BOWRING wished to ask what the Right Hon. Ba•
ronet meant by saying that a fit receptacle for paintings would
be very desirable. Did he mean to alter the external appear-
ance of the National Gallery, or did he mean to erect an in-
stitution for works of art which would be worthy of the nation?
Mr. WARBURTON said all they had to do was to build a
large gallery for the reception of great church pictures, in the
Grandoise style—the grandest of all styles. He hoped the
Right Hon. Baronet would be prepared next year to recom-
mend the building of a great gallery for such a national exhi-
bition.
Sir R. PEEL said sometimes the disposition of the House
was very economical, and sometimes very liberal. The moat
magnificent site in the metropolis had been thrown away, as
any one would see by standing on the steps of the National
Gallery.—( Hear, hear.) lie did not think much good could
be done by laying out money on the exterior—they certainly
might amend the cupola and improve the turrets, but after all
the great thing was to have the galleries so constructed as that
the pictures might be properly lighted. The matter was
under the consideration of the Government, and he trusted
that before many years elapsed the country would Ise in pos-
session of a gallery worthy of the reception of works of art—
( Hear, hear)—and thus hold out an encouragement to those
who might be desirous of presenting pictures for the national
benefit.
Mr. HAWES said a few words, and
Lord MAHON declared he entirely approved of the sug-
gestion of the Right Hon. Baronet, and hoped it would be car-
ried into executism.
After a conversation, in which Mr. Redington, Lord
Mahon, Mr. Evart, and Sir R. Peel, took part, the vote was
agreed to.
On the motion of the Earl of LINCOLN, that 6,500/.
should be appropriated to the support of the botanical gardens
at Kew,
Mr. COLLETT objected that those gardens were of no
national importance whatever, and he would especially wish to
know of what use a farm-house would be to the country?
The Earl of LINCOLN said that these gardens had, up to
the end of 1841, been left in a state which was a disgrace to a
country like this. The necessity for botanical gardens had
been invariably allowed in every State in the world. In every
country in Europe botanical gardens had been cultivated as well
as in India. With respect to the farm-house, it was at first
erected for the purl ose of receiving the great aloe, which had
been imported about a twelvemonth ago; but it was in reality
intended for every description of tropical plants. He would
take that opportunity of congratulating the Irish Members on
the fact, that it was about to be erected by one of their coun-
trymen. He had accidentally heard there was a man of great
experience in Dublin, and he had allowed him to enter into
competition with an Englishman of great experience, and the
contract had been fairly won. It was being erected in a most
admirable and liberal manner.
The vote was then agreed to.
On the motion that the sum of 8,3951. be appropriated for
the erection and improvement of the Committee-rooms of both
Houses of Parliament,
Mr. WILLIANIS expressed a desire to knew when the new
Houses were likely to be fit for occupation ?
The Earl of LINCOLN said that the building certainly
could not be completed within the time specified by the archi-
tect, but the House •f Lords would be ready for occupation at
the commencement of the next session, without, however, its
decorations, which could not be prepared in time. The House
of Commons would not be ready before the commencement of
the session after next. For the sake of the building, the archi-
tect, and the country, it was advisable that the work should not
be hurried, for when completed he believed that it would be
one of the finest buildings in Europe.
Mr. 11 AWES trusted that not one shilling would be ex-
pended in any temporary erections connected with the new
Houses of Parliament. He hoped, as improvements could not
be effected this session, that steps would be taken to give them
better accommodation during the next.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the sug-
gestion of the Hon. Member would be attended to.
Sir R. PEEL said those Members who had attended for
four or five hours a day on the Committees, had established a
strong claim to the gratitude of the House and of the country.
He could assure them that steps should be taken which would
conduce to their health and convenience.
After some conversation the vote was agreed to.
A vote of 85,000/. was proposed arid agreed to towards con-
structing the new Houses of Parliament.
A vote of 14,000/. was proposed for altering and partially re-
building the Home-office and the Board of Trade.
Lord LINCOLN, in answer to questions with respect to the
plot of land immediately adjacent to the Treasury, said that as
Yet the Woods and Forests had not come to a conclusion re-
speeting it.
Mr. WARBURTON hoped the grant was not to be ap-
plied for a temporary purpose.
Lord LINCOLN said the sum woud bo applied to im-
provements of a pemanent character.
The vote was agree] to, as were also-
-3,8361. for the Holyhead Harbour, and Shrewsbury-road.
50,0001. for the Caledo ian Canal.
24,4611. for the Public Works of Ireland.
5,000/. for Kingston Harbour.
39,320/. for the officers of the two Houses of Parliament.
25,90 'l. for the salaries of the Treasury Department.
17,420/ for the salaries of the officers of the Home-office.
21,0001. for the salaries of the officers of the Colonial-office.
39,000/. for the salaries of the officers of the Privy Council,
and Board of Trade.
2,000/. for the Privy Seal-office.
34,0261. for the Comptroller and Paymaster's-office.
15,919/. for the expenses of the Exchequer-office.
2,691/. for the expenses of the State Paper-office.
When 3,3401. for the expenses of the Ecclesiastical Commis-
sions of England was proposed,
Mr. WILLIAMS rose and objected to that vote. He said
he would take the sense of the House against it. He would
divide the House on any grant of money for the religious
education of Protestants or Roman Catholics, but he
had no objection to provide a merel7 secular education for all.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then made
a few observations in favour of the vote.
Dr. BOWRING said that the vote was really th's, that
public money should be taken not for public purposes. As it
was for the Church of England, it should be paid out of the
ecclesiastical funds.

.......
Mr. CARDWELL said that notwithstanding the persuasive
speech of the Hon. Member for Montrose, he could not accede
to the motion of the Hon. Member for Finsbury. With re-
spect to the squabble which the Hon. Gentleman had described
as so contemptible, as to be only for 251., the truth was that
the Government had engaged the vessels which carried the
mails to convey first-class passengers at a certain rate of rea-
sonable charge, together with parcels for the inhabitants of
the Scilly Isles, and for ships lying near them, and it was the
refusal of the owners of those vessels to grant this public con-
venience that had led to the dissolution of the connexion between
them and the Government. The Hon. Gentleman was cer-
tainly mistaken in stating that there had been any sufficient
complaint made at the Post-office, for it was notorious
that the Noble Lord at the head of the Post-office,
and the Secretary of that department, were perfectly
easy of access, and they had no interest whatever
In refusing to rectify the complaints. The system of fees had
been entirely put down, except in this instance of payments
for early delivery. No evil whatever resulted from these early
deliveries. The system was this:—The letter-carriers sorted
their letters which they took out for the general delivery, and
his heap being diminished by those for the early delivery, which
were always the most numerous, the others were much sooner
disposed of than they otherwise would be, so that on the whole
there was no loss of time to the public. With regard to the
amount of information which would be derived from inquiry,
the Hon. and Gallant Member for Brighton (Capt. Peehell)
had sufficiently shown that the information was sufficiently fall,
as was already shown by the returns on the table; so that, in
fact, the very best argument against the inquiry had
been furnished by the mover for the Commit-
tee himself.—( Hoar.) Then there was the " Post-office
Directory," which the Hon. Member had described as a very
gross job. Now what were the circumstances of the case?
This " Directory" was necessary for the public convenience,
and the only parties who could obtain the information which
would render it of utility were the letter-carriers. It had been
originally projected by a person of the name of Sparks!.
After conducting it for some time he was succeeded by Mr.
Pritchard, and after him came Mr. Kelly. Now Mr. Kelly
had originally been connected with the Post-office, and had
given a considerable sum for his appointment, and the privilege
of publishing the " Directory." He had invested a large sum
of money in this publication, and had, as the Honourable
Gentleman allowed, very greatly improved it. The re-
turns for this publieation were certainly considerable,
but they were the fair reward of a heavy mercantile
speculation, and to which the proprietor was fully entitled.
This was the whole evidence of the job which could be ad-
duced, and he must contend that in the right sense of the word
the term job could never be rightly applied to this transaction.
Having disposed of the two portions of the Hon. Gentleman's
attack which, in his judgment, appeared the most important,
he would just advert to the effect which this motion, if carried,
would have. They would, after a tedious and unnecessary in.
quiry, just attain that which they already possessed, and would
be further disturbing the whole arrangements of a large and
highly important public establishment. From what the Hon.
Gentleman had said, and from the paper he had read, it did
appear quite true, and he was ready to allow it, that there was
some insubordination among the inferior officers of the Post-
office, but he could not ascribe it to the publication of the Di-
rectory by Mr. Kelly, and he was quite sure that the proposed
inquiry would not be at all instrumental in its diminution.
The discontent said to exist among them at the reduction of
their salaries as they grew into years, was a rumour to which
he would give no very ready or implicit credence. That re-
duction originated in the choice of the easier walks, and was
made up for by other advantages. And with regard to any
complaints, the proper quarter to apply to was the office of the
Noble Lord at the head of the Post-office, or to the Secretary
of the establishment, by whom he was sure they would receive
every attention. He should therefore feel it his duty to resist
the inquiry.
Dr. BO WRING thought that the Hon. Gentleman who
had just sat down had not answered his Hon. Friend the
Member for Montrose, for he had not proved that there was not
a difference made between the rich and the poor. He believed
that the subordinates who could expose many abuses were
afraid to displease their superiors. And it was well known,
that it was not the way to obtain favour in a public office to
point out abuses or to suggest remedies. Now that the Post-
office had become more popular than ever, it was time that the
distinction between the higher and humbler classes of society
in respect to accommodation ought to be done away with.
Mr. WILLIAMS, who rose amidst loud and continued cries
of " Divide," supported the motion.
Mr. F. BARING did not think it would be the most
desirable course to submit these arrangements of the Po,t-
office to a Committee of the House. He thought it would he
better that the Government should take the inquiry into its
own hands. With respect to the " Directory," he could not
agree in all that had been said; but he would admit that those
who had the labour of collecting the information should partici-
pate in the gains. Yet, if the suggestion were adopted that the
public should have the whole advantage, the work would not
long continue to he as valuable as it was now acknowledged
to be.--( Hear, hear. )
Sir C. LEMON supported the motion.—(The Hon. Baronet
spoke amidst loud cries of "Divide.")
Mr. CURTEIS (amidst similar interruption) said that he
would vote with the Hon. Member for Finsbury, for he thought
it monstrous that he should be obliged to pay 20s. a quarter, or
whatever it might be, in order to receive the communications
of his constituents in reasonable time.
The House then divided—
For Mr. Duncombe's motion
Against it ...
Majority
NATIONAL ANTIQUITIES.
On the readmission of strangers, we found
Mr. WYSE moving an address to her Majesty, that she will
be graciously pleased to give directions for the establishment
and maintenance of a museum of national antiquities in con-
junction with a commission for the conservation of national
antipities. The Honourable Gentleman argued that it was
of small effect to endeavour to elevate the people to an appre-
ciation of high art and elevated pursuits, if measures were not
*else taken to preserve those monuments andl collections by
which the learning, the refinement, and the history of past ages
were as mnch preserved as in books. He dwelt upon the defi-
ciency which existed at present for supplying that kind of in-
struction. A gentleman, of the name of Dann, applied
to the Trustees of the British Museum, to appropriate
a place in the new building for the preservation of
the remains of ancient English architecture, to which
the trustees replied, that they. could not provide any place
for the preservation of the remains of Gothic architecture.
These were evils which were not merely of a general but of a
specific nature. They saw some of the most beautiful of the
specimens of Sir Christopher Wren allowed to hasten to decay,
and were obliged to be taken down and destroyed. Some Ho-
nourable Gentlemen might have seen a production which had
done honour to Ireland, he meant the essay of Mr. Petre on
the round towers in Ireland ; and what was the conclusion to
which he came, and which he offered as a justification of his
work ? It was, that he was actuated by a desire to rescue the
antiquities of his native country from oblivion, and give them
their just place. He showed that in this country, day by day,
they were allowing the most important remains of earlier pe-
riods to perish, and that the most beautiful structures were de-
caying, and that their fragments were occasionally carried off
to erect other buildings. The Hon. Gentleman then alluded
to the attention that was paid in France to these matters—
where there was a commission formed for the purpose of pre-
serving ancient monuments, and for the investigation of politi-
cal and moral sciences, and of ancient beauty. The public mo-
numents likely to perish they had restored, and
they were copied by the most distinguished ar-
tists. They ordered that on every building of any
antiquity, there should be described the historical events con-
nected with it. There was now a spirit existing in France for
the protection of everything connected with ancient Chris-
tianity in that country. He did not state this merely for the
purpose of panegyrising France ; the same spirit existed in
Germany. With such examples before them, were they not
called upon to re-establish the old spirit of Christianity, by
protecting its oldest emblems in this country ? Last session
he was assured by the Secretary for Ireland that the Govern-
ment were not adverse to the promotion of this object. He
now asked for a Commission to prevent further dilapidation.
The Hon. Gentleman then concluded by moving an address to
her Majesty, that she will be graciously pleased to give direc-
tions fur the establishment and maintenance of a museum of
national antiquities, in conjunction with a Commission for the
conservation of national antiquities.
Mr. HAWES seconded the motion, considering some
means necessary for the preservation of works of art. On the
north-west coast of England many monuments of ancient talent
had, to his own knowledge been sacrilegiously destroyed, and
the most curious specimens actually broken up to pave the
public highways.
Mr. BERNAL suggested that the motion should be al-
tered, so as not only to include relics of art discovered in the
provinces of this country, but extend to all European nations.
'the province of Brittany in France presented the amplest op-
portunities of enriching our collections; and he could not
conceive how the genius of England could ever attain supre-
macy in that department, which he might call imaginative,
unless they were enabled to study the models so justly esteemed
as the masterpieces of the ancients.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER (who from
the low tone in which he addressed the House, was almost in-
audible in the gallery) was understood to protest against the
discussion of such a question at that period of the session. Of
late years the artistic talent of this country had been increas-
ing rapidly, and the taste of the public contemporaneously im-
proving, and he thought its growth would be rather ensured
by enterprise without than addresses within Parliament.
Mr. P. BORTHWICK regarded the question as one in-
volving not only the social elevation, but the religious feelings
of the country ; and could not concur with his Right Hon.
Friend the Chanc, llor of the Exchequer that the interference
and patronage of the State Would be useless in the advance-
ment of taste. He urged the introduction of a Christian in-
stead of a pagan style of architecture and sculpture, and con-
cluded by expressing a hope that next session the Government
would entertain the motion.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. EWART complained that this was a third time that
the question had been propounded, and a third time that it had
been met with an unsatisfactory opposition from the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer. The real object of the motion was,
to preserve the mouldering monuments of art in this country
from the ruin now almost inevitable, and it had been an-
swered that such relics needed no such care. Why, then,
were the Parian and Xanthian marbles guarded with such
anxiety ? Why should specimens of the ancients be preserved
with almost superstitious zeal, while the monuments of this
country's talent were left to destruction or decay ? He was
satisfied that the motion had been appreciated by some Hon.
Members, whose opinion was entitled to respect, and he for
one should give it his zealous support.
The motion was then negatived without a division, and the
House went into a Committee of

' Mr. REDINGTON thought that instead of taking the
money out of the public funds, they ought to spend all the
funds in the hands of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners,
After a few words from Mr. WILLIAMS,
The Committee divided, when there appeared—.
For the vote
Against it
Majority for the vote —42
The vote was accordingly agreed to.
The next vote was, that 52,7701. be granted to defray the
charge of salaries and expenses of the Poor-law Commissioners
in England and Wales, and in Ireland.
Mr REDINGTON said it was well worth while that the
House should know how the poor-laws had operated in
Ireland. It was their bounden duty to inquire. He would
state the reasons. He had the honour to be chairman of the
board of guardians for four ) ears. The house had been de-
clared to be fit for use. They were prepared to carry out the
provisions of the law, but they were perfectly incapable of
doing so ; and when this was represented, all the assistance they
had got was a mandamus from the Court of Queen's Bench to
do a certain act, namely, to levy a rate. They were since
obliged to employ a military force to collect the rate, and to do
that which it was the duty of the officers whose salaries they were
now about to vote to effect. All this was owing to the supineness
of the Poor-law Commissioners. Now, what had occurred in
this instance? Why, there were two executions against the
House for its expenses, and his endeavour was to show that the
cry that the new poor-law had not been sufficiently carried
out. In another part of the country the same principle had
been adopted. All the facts which had been adduced were
sufficient to show that the poor law had failed, and he thought
that sufficient ground had been shown for inquiry. The law
had proved inoperative, and he thought he should have sufficient
title for this Committee of inquiry.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that the Hon. Gentleman,
whose gratuitous services on a Commission, had been very
valuable, was probably not aware of the declaration which he
had made at the beginning of this session, that if it were
deemed that the poor-law is Ireland had not answered
the object of those who proposed it, he should offer no oppo-
sition to inquiry. But at the present time he thought that, at
this period of the session, such an inquiry would be inexpedient.
The Hon. Gentleman had adduced instances to show that
the poor-law guardians were supine, but he .4 ould rather that
they should he accused of supineness than any undue activity in
the exercise of the immense power with which they were in-
vested. He had every hope that in the rural districts the
measure would be acceptable, though he knew that many diffi-
culties lay in its way.
Sir ROBERT FERGUSON complained of the manner In
which the-guardians in the county districts had set at defiance
the Comfifissioners in Dublin. It kept them continually in hot
water. In Limerick the guardians had gone to law with the
Commissioners, and the greatest confusion was the result ; he
therefore hoped that some means would be adopted to prevent
a continuance of this state of things.
Mr. REDINGTON hoped the Committee would be
granted, for there was no subject on which inquiry was so
much wanted as this.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said he had, some time ago, ex-
pressed his willingness to concur in; the proposition, but he

SUPLY.
Mr. WILLIAMS, on he vote of 223,0001. for the Ord-
nance estimates, objected, that the entire vote of this year had
amounted to 2,287,0001., while in 1835 it was upwards of a
million less, and that thus the estimates had within
the last ten years been nearly doubled.—( Hear, hear.)
It was a well-known fact, that the household troops and foot-
guards did not perform the same duties as other regiments.
He had been told, that at one time as much interest was ne-
cessary to be made to get a captain's commission, in this par-
ticular regiment, as to get the command of other regiments.
The number of men in this horse brigade was 570 men and 46
officers, or at the rate of five officers for every three com-
panies; comparing those numbers with the number of officers
in the artillery, the difference was astounding. Then, again, 19
out of the 46 officers received extra pay for brevet rank ; while
in the artillery, out of 435 officers, the number who received such
pay was very few indeed. This corps might be of use in time
of war, but in time of peace it was of no service whatever.
But he need not follow up this line of argument; but all he
would say was, that he did think those distinctions should be
done away with altogether. With these observations he would
detain the House no longer.
Captain BOLDERO defended the corps, and spoke in high
terms of their efficiency and usefulness, and stated the nature
of the different services in which some of the officers were at
present employed.
Sir H. DOUGLAS hoped the House would not listen to
the proposition of the Ilon. Member opposite, fur he (Sir H.
Douglas) could, as an old artillery officer, speak of the effi-
ciency of this splendid corps. He then took a review of the
utility and achievements of the artillery services of different
continental nations, and then went through a history of the
feats of gallantry, daring, and usefulness of the British artil-
lery during the continental campaigns, and denied that it would
be possible to get up such a branch of the service without
years of toil and scientific instruction, though the Hon. Mem-
ber opposite appeared to think that if it were disbanded it could
be easily raised again.

THE SUN, LONDON, SATURDA I EVENING, JUNE 28, 1845,