The Sun.
London, England, 1842-04-13 00:00:00

case. Hitherto they had spoken only of Election Committees,
but he wished also to speak of parties to Private Bills ; before
Committees on these Bills, Counsel acted in the same manner.
Two or three would come and go on with the business for some
time; then they would graduallyleave, and one of the junior
Counsel would get up and speak—not of the I usinese that ought
to occupy the Committee, but, as Members of that House
sometimes did, he speaks against time—(Hear, hear)—
thereby wasting the time of Hon. Members who had no right
to be called on to do such additional duty. He contended that
if Members were bound to declare that they would be present
" from first to last," an exceedingly proper declaration, if they
were obliged to attend in the Committee-room at a certain
time and stay there without quitting the room till the Speaker
took the Chair, was it fair that Gentlemen who were confoundedly
well paid—( Hear, hear, and laughter)—for wasting their
time, should not attend ? There really was a monstrous waste
of time on Private Bills, and it would be an immense benefit to
the parties cor.cerned in them, if both Counsel and Members
were bound to stay in the room till they had settled the lousi-
ness that had called them together. He should wish if he
could to prevent Counsel from speaking at all, and pursue a
plan similar to that of quarter sessions, where evidence was
taken and the opinion of the Counsel asked as to points
of law if necessary. He believed that all Counsel before
Committees of that House, whether for Private Bills or
elections, did nothing but misrep esent the case on each side to
the Lest of their ability.—(Hear, hear.) He believed that it
was their duty, as he was sure it was their practice, and he
thought they would not be feed unless they adopted h.—
( Hear, he ) In a conflict between a wealthy body such as
the Corporation of London and a poorer interest, it was impos-
sible to say what confusion might not be introduced by the
pewee of the purse, by employing three or four Counsel ; the
smaller party would be driven to the wail, or forced to make an
unfavourable compromise. That was done every day ; and it
was a practice of which constant complaints were made. He
was aware, however, that it was difficult to come to a satisfac-
tory adjustment upon the question. He confessed that he did
not clearly see his way in the matter, but he was equally cer-
tain that the Right Hon. Gentleman who had brought the sub-
ject under the consideration of the House, deserved their best
acknowledgments. There was now a rule in force to the effect
that two Counsel only should be heard before a Committee.
Now, it appeared to him that it would be desirable, whether
this rule were continued or not, that two Counsel should be
compelled to remain in each Committee, and not be allowed to
run from place to place during the proceedings' in the same
way as Lord Denman had prevented Counsel from running
from Court to Court in Westminster Hall. lie believed that
the course his Lordship had taken upon that subject had given
general satisfaction. He hoped the House would take the
entire subject of the proceedings before Committees into its
serious consideration ; and if any improvement were suggested
upon the plan proposed by his Hon. and Learned Friend, he
was sure that he would not refuse to it his support.
Mr. STUART WORTLEY wished to declare his
firm conviction that -there. was one method of diminishing
expense before Committee far more effectual than any which
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had recommended. The
remedy which he would suggest would be to establish a more
satisfactory and competent tribunal.—(Loud cries of " Hear,
hear.") He had the greatest possible respect for the authority
and the opinions of the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of her
Majesty's Government, and he should be disposed to look upon
any measure of which he was the author with the utmost par-
tiality ; but he should own that he saw reason to become more
and more convinced every day that in the experiment he had
made he had failed in obtaining the object which he had in
view.—( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet, with all his
ability, could not perform impossibilities; and, for his part,
he was convinced that it would be iMpossible, by any con-
trivance or design, to establish a sufficiently competent tribu.
nal for the trial of election petitions, so long as they confined
themselves entirely to the materials to be found in that House.
—( Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") The Hon. Gentleman op-
posite had talked of the enormous expense of the proceedings
before those Committees, arising in an especial manner from
the protracted nature of the proceedings. 'Now he would un-
dertake to say that if a scheme could be devised which %out,'
p'ace the constioition of Election Committees upon a satis-
factory footing, and which would render them competent ju-
dicial tribunals, they would diminish expense, not merely
by shortening the proceedings, but by preventing the agi-
tation of the questions that came before them.—( Hear. hear.)
Cases which would never have been brought before a really
legal and cempetent tribunal were brought before Election
Committees, because parties thought it wo. th their while to
take their chance; and those Committees, without any ade-
quate legal knowledge, we e called upon to act on the most
contradictory decisions He could not allow this discussion to
close without pro'esting against any attempt being made to
patch up the pi esent system, and he hoped the House would
remedy the grievances complained.of by remodelling the tribunal.
Mr. O'CONNELL felt called upon to take a part in this
discussion, as he had been himself alluded to in the course of
it. He begged that it should be musticlistinctly understood
that he made no complaint of the able and Hon. Gentlemen
whom he had engages! as his Counsel. He had engaged them
with the full knowledge that he could not have the whole of
their time, and that he must take his chance as to how much
time they could afford to give him.' There had beer. a
clear understanding- between hint and them, and they
had faithfully and honourably performed their part.
This was an evil that was great in proportion to the
eminence of Counsel. -As a member of the bar he repudiated
the idea that Mr. Harrison .could have made use of the excuse
attributed to him. His best excuse for not attending to the
business for which he had been retained would have been that.
he was actually at the time em; loyed elsewhere; but if he
were not actually so employed, then he was certainly without
excuse for his conduct. The Hon. G.entleman had talked of
the expense being lessened by having junior Counsel to examir.e
the witnesses. Now, it was well known that the most im-
portant part of a case was the examination of witnesses. That
showed that however competent Hon. Gentlemen might be to
suggest amendments in the law, these, were matters svhich
were exclusively in the province of those who were
in close attendance in the Courts.—(Hear, hear ) He
was very much afraid that the experiment of the Right
Hon. Baronet had totally failed. The question now asked was
not what were the politics of the Committee, but what were
the politics of the Chairman. He hoped the Hon. Gentleman
opposite would not content himself welt giving these excellent
ideas, but would come forward-with a plan for a different tri-
bunal. The delegated authority was called the House ; but it
was not the House ; the public eye was not upon it. He
thought the plan was first to have a register of the voter, so
that it should be clearly ascertained who had a right to
vote at a certain time, and let him vole at the en-
suing elqytion, whatever became of him in the mean time.
Then, if there should be a petition after the election. let
it come before a tribunal, which from its knowledge of
the law of evidence, would be competent to pronounce
a decision —a tribunal, the members of which would be taken
from that profession from which were selected the Judges of
the land, and let them be paid according to the value of their
services. This would do away with all the gambl ng and spe-
culation which at present characterised such proceedings. He
hoped that the Han. Gentleman opposite would turn his
thoughts to the subject, and he (Mr. O'Connell) would be
happy to render him his assistance to remedy this enormous,
and, as his Hon. Friend had called it, this confounded mis-
chief.--( Laughter. )
Mr. W. 0. STANLEY said he thought much of the ex-
pense incurred in these Committees arose from the deficient
system of registration, and a want of simplification hi the right
of franchise ; and he was of opinion that if the right of fran-
chise and the Registration Courts were to be amended, the pro-
aceedings would be much simplified.
Mr. AGLIONBY said he agreed with what had fallen
from the Hon. Member who had just sat down, hut he would
go even further back than the Hon. Member did, and simplity
the mode of election. The question which had been proposed
by the Hon. Member for Ipswich was one of great difficulty,
and lie did not think they would find many Members in that
House competent to do justice to its importance. lie did not
gain anything by dividing ; he
thlaetmhbeesr would
should change his motion, and move for
shouldthink the
suggest Hon.
a Committee. They were bound, as far as they could by law,
to lessen the great ' expenses incurred in these peti.
tions, but he did not think that the plan of the Honourable
Member for Ipswich would have that effect. As long as ta-
lent was appreciated, so long would they have the race run
by men of the highest attainments, and he believed it would
he impossible for that House to prevent such a proceeding.
If Counsel were only permitted to attend one Committee,
what would be the consequence? Why, eminent Counsel
would calculate on the length to which Committees might ex-
tend, and would exact an enormous lee for their at teudance on
those Commit le, s.— ( Hear.) He thought if a Committee were
appointed to investigate the subject before which Counsel and
agents may be examined, that an intermediate course might be
adopted which would lessen the expense of the parties. He
thought the advantages !o the members of the bar were but as
a feather in the scale, arid that the interests of the public
should alone be regarded. He hoped the lion. Member would
change his motion, and would ask for a Committee to investi-
gate the subject.
Captain FITZROY said, although he agreed with what had
fallen from the Hoe. Member for the West Riding of York-
shire (Mr. S. Wortley), with respect to the hopeless-
ness of Election Committees being satisfactory to the House
or to the public, as long as they were compost d of the materials
of which they at present were ; yet he thought that the opinion
of the House had been given so decidedly in favour
of the present mode of constructing those tribunals,
that any Hon. Member, who would move in the present Par-
liament to have the mode set aside, would have very little
chance of success. He considered a better mode of construct-
ing those tribunals would be, by putting in the chair of each
Committee a man of distinguished ability at the bar. Two
advantages would be particularly desirable from the adoption of
such a course. In the first place, Gentlemen who were placed
on Committees were not generally well aware of the
value ofevidences ,Much evidence, attended with no practical
result was given before Committees, which would not be the
case if distinguished lawyers presided. In the second place ob-
jections were often mooted by Counsel merely for the purpose
of delay, and it was well known that Counsel frequently
laughed at the frivolity of objections which they induced the
Committee to entertain. If the Chairmen were eminent law-
yers, no such objections would be entertained.
Lord G. SOMERSET said that a fair trial had not been
given to the experiment of the Right Hon. Baronet the
Member for Tarneorth. He could not concur in the opinion
that lawyers ought to be selected as the Chairmen of Election
Committees. Men of ability and eminence were not always
accessible, particularly when there was a great number of Com-
mittees, as at present, anti should a junior Counsel be selected
to preside, he feared the result would be that some of the older
gentlemen who practised before Committees would take
that opportunity of showing up their junior brethren, and thus
to advantage would be derivable from the plan suggested.
The result of the Hon. Gentleman's proposition would be most
mischievous to the suitors, and he did not think that
he would gain more talent in the formation of the Committees.
A great improvement would require the whole machinery to be
simplified. The expense of Counsel was not the only heavy
eharge on suitors, and if the Hon. Mr mbe: meant to interfere
in the manner in which parties sho !d their salts, he
must go far beyond lies present res. '111143 i, to which he must
give his dissent, as he believed it vet mid not be of advantage to
the suit ors.

Mr. WASON replied. He believed his resolution was
simple and adequate to the end hs pea,iosed. He thought it was
hardly fair fur the Right Hon. Bad (met to ask him if he would
test his resolution by the result of his own Elect:on Committee.
It was generally admitted that the plan of the Right Hon.
Baronet (Sir Robert Peel) had failed, and the question both
in the House and out of the House was now, What sort of a
Chairman have you got ? If he was against you, it was con-
sidered that it was all up ; if with you, that it was all
right. There being three of the Committte on one
side, and three o the other, it was well known that
the casting vote of the Chairman would decide all difficult ques-
tions, and the result of the Committee would be ju.t according
to his politics. If the Noble Lord (Lord U. Somerset).would
take the subject into his consideration, he should be perfectly
sat sfied with his experience and ability.—(Lord G. Somerset
appeared to decline the proposal.)—The Noble Lord Shook his
head, and did not accede ; he should, therefore, withdraw his
motior, and he should be guided by the views he might hear
expressed on both sides of the House in deciding whether he
should bring it again under their consideration or not. He
' felt persuaded that unless they put in the Chair a gentleman of
legal knowledge, they would never be enabled to have the pro..
ceedings of Uommittees satisfactorily conducted.
Mr. CHILDERS said, in his opinion the great evil was
that the Counsel were much too clever for the Judges.—
Laughter. ) The oppoAng Counsel made different points,
and in some way or other the members of the Committee al-
most invariably leaned to that point which favoured their own
party.—( Hear, bear.)