The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-15 00:00:00

`"

reading, but would feel at liberty to take which course
he thought fit upon the third reading.
S:r T. FRENIANTLE said, though he understood the
Hon. Gentleman intended to support the second reading of the
WI, he was desirous at that early period of offering a few ob-
servations to the House, and he hoped the House would indulge
him for a short time. He could not pass by the speech of the
Hon. Gentleman, for it appeared to him that the Hon. Gen-
tleman acted rather hastily upon his own impressions of wha
the future policy of the Government with respect to Ireland
would be, considering this Bill as the precursor of others which
would follow. In looking narrowly into this question he felt,
after the full and able exposition given of the measure and of

the views of hisaight Hon. Friend at the head of the Adminis-
tration, that he had little more to say in recommending the
measure to the House. He wished, however, with reference to his
own position and his own feelings, to state the grounds on which
he entirely concurred ut those views. The opposition to the
proposed grant came from two sources, one from those who
opposed it entirely on religious grounds, and the other tram
those who opposed it on what was called the voluntary prin-
ciple, and those who objected to any grant of public money in
aid of Church matters. In regard to the first, he confessed
that he could nat concur with them in thinking that
this question ought to be viewed as a religious
one. Undoubtedly it had been stated, and stated truly,
that every act of a man's life ought to be subjected to moral
and religious responsibility. But he could not see in what way
religion was violated by voting for a measure of this kind.
The Honourable Gentleman opposite (Mr. Hawes) had stated,
and he (Sir 'l'. Fremantle) concurred with him, that this vote,
whether it were passed, or whether it were refused, would not
encourage or discourage in the slightest degree the Catholic
religion in Ireland. They were dealing with a population of
between six and seven millions. Was it to be supposed that
whether they gave a better or a worse education to the priest
of Ireland the extension of the Catholic or the Protestant reli-
gion would be affected one way or the other? He could not
understand hew the religious question had arisen, unless it
were supposed that the effect of this grant would be to in-
duce those who are Protestants now to become Roman
Catholics. He conceived, therefore, that he was perfectly
justified with reference to all religious denominations, in
voting as a matter of charity—as a matter of public expedi •
ency—that this grant should be made. He conceived he
was justified in doing this without reference to any religious
considerations whatever. His Hon. Friend, the Member for
the University of Oxford, had brought this question home in
a much more intelligible way, as he said that he would not
consent to give anything to persons who taught that which
was erroneous in doctrine. Now, the question was, whether
thee could act on that principle or whether they could not?
Now he did not think that his Hon. Friend himself could alto-
gether act upon that principle. Could he act upon that prin-
ciple in the situation of landlord, or guardian, or parent, or in
any other relation in which he might be called upon to stand?
Now his Hon. Friend proposed to leave a large population in
Ireland without the means of religious instruction. The prin-
ciple which his Hon. Friend advocated had been violated in
numerous instances. The statute-book contained se-
veral enactments in which that principle had been violated.
In the army estimates there was a distinct vote for the pay-
ment of Roman Catholic chaplains. Every military hospital
was furnished with a Roman Catholic chaplain, if there were a
sufficient number of Roman Catholic soldiers in the regiment
to require his attendance. To that he thought that the Hon.
Gentleman could not object. There was no religious prin-
ciple violated in the measure. There was no principle
of the Protestant Church violated in the vote. With re-
gard to that port ion of the question, it had been
before advocated in that House. It had been advo-
cated in the year ISO'S by Mr. Tierney, and in language
so much better than any he ( Sir I'. Fremantle) could make
use of, that he could not do better than quote it. In support
of the grant to Maynooth, Mr. Tierney had said that they might
make the Irish Catholics bad subjects—they might make them
bad Catholics—they might make them bad Christians, but they
could not make them Protestants, and that there was no effectual
method of improving the condition of Ireland but by educating
the Catholics. Mr. Grattan, who was also a most high
authority on this subject, had said, in the same debate, that if
they refused this grant they would be securing the ignorance of
a great portion of the Roman Catholic clergy—that to secure
religious conformity was impracticable, and that they would
render the securing of political conformity equally impracticable if
they were to refuse this vote. lie concurred in these opinions,
and he believed that the proposition of his Right Hon. Friend
was not only justifiable in principle, but that it was absolutely
just.—( Hear, hear.) His Right Hon. Friend, in a former
debate, had gone into the history of the system so fully, that it
would be unnecessary for him ( Sir Thomas Fremantle) to go
over the same ground. They knew that the College of May-
nooth had been established by an Act of the Legislature, in
1795 ; that by another Act of the Legislature it had been re-

cognised, in 18 .0; and that, as late as the year I •403, another Act
of Parliament lead not only acknowledged its existence, but had
given it a firmer settlement, and had given the trustees of that
College power to take and to hol 1 larger quantities of land than
they had been enabled to hold before. In addition to this
the grant had been made uninterruptedly till the present time.
When they considered who had established the College it was
rather too much to say that they should not continue the
grant, and even extend it. All, he believed, were in
favour of the principle of the grant.—( Cries of " Heat.")_
He believed that it was not denied that the number of Ro
man Catholics had doubled in Ireland since the Union. In
1795 the Catholic population was estimated at four millions—

it was now seven millions. There was another question—the
I pestion of contract—upon which he wished to say a very
few words. It was only those who wished to shrink from the
performance of a contract, who would first demand its produc-
tion.—( Hear, hear.) But there were agreements and under-
takings between men and parties which ought to be more bind-
ing than contracts. It should be recollected that the College
of Ma)nooth was established and endowed by a Parliament
which was entirely Protestant ; and it was established with the
perfect understanding that the grant was to be permanent. It
was also to be remembered that the Roman Catholics, since
the Union, had exercised great influence upon Par-
liamentary questions. They had contributed to the
carrying of the Reform Bill and other measures,
and it could not be doubted that if the Parliament had con-

tinned in Ireland an enlarged grant would have been given be-
fOre this to the Irish priesthood. He thought that they ought
not to legislate for Ireland in an Irish sense.—( Hear, hear.) If
the question touched any great subject connected with the in-
terests of the empire, they then should look upon it as an im-
perial question, but when it did not affect the interests of this
country, they ought to view it as an Irish question, and they
ought to deal with it as Irish Members. In support of that
argument, he might refer to the contrast between the feeling
in Ireland and that in England on this matter.—( Hear,
Lear.) Though the table was covered with peti-
tions against the grant to Maynooth from England and
Scotland, those from Ireland were very few, though there ex-
isted a strong feeling in Ireland against Catholicism, and a fear
of Catholic ascendancy. He might also allude to the petition
from one Presbyterian body in favour of the grant, which was
presented by his Right Hon. Friend. If, then, there was no
principle to be violated, and if it was but just that the vote
should be made, it was easy to perceive that the policy which
led to it was good. The existing want of everything necessary
to keep up a great establishment had been depicted to the
House over and over again, and had not been denied by any
Member. His Right Honourable Friend was perfectly correct
when he stated that they gave enough to prevent voluntary con-
tributions, but they did not give enough to keep up an institu-
tion. The allowance made was so inadequate that stu-
dents were very frequently obliged to leave the College
before they had completed their academical course. He
thought that it would be well worth the expenditure of a few
pounds to introduce a better feeling in the breasts of those
who could not leave the College without a feeling of degrada-
tion. He rejoiced that this measure had been introduced by
her Majesty's Government, because he did think it would be
a great means of removing some of the many grievances of
which the Irish people had to complain, and particularly those
causes of discontent so justly existing amongst the Roman
Catholics of that country.--( Cheers from the Opposition. )
It would also, he hoped, have the effect of inspiring the great
majority of the people of that country with confidence in
the existing Government—(Cheers)—for without that con-
fidence it was useless to hope that the existing Government
could be upheld.—(Cheers from the Opposition benches.)
No doubt, it would be very easy, if the exist-
in.. Government did not choose to covet this con-
fidence, to send military troops, and enforce courts-martial
in that country, to enforce obedience to the law ; but he would
contend for it that such a mode of attempting to prevent eva-
sions of the laws, would never be successful in enabling the ex-
isting Government to carry on the business of the country.—
( Hear, hear.) Therefore, he must hold that, in order to con-
vince the Irish people that their confidence was sought, some
such measure as this was necessary to be introdeced.—( Cheers
from the Opposition.) When once the people of Ireland saw
that the intentions of the Government were conciliatory and
honest, they would give them credit for meaning well towards
them.—( Hear, hear.) But it would be unnecessary for him to
follow this subject out any further. Already they saw many
indications of improvement in Ireland. Railroad projects were
now being extensively carried on in that country ; and he did
hope they would prove to be but the forerunners of others still
more extensive and beneficial, if topics of a' political character
were not kept up as a means of preventing that union of inte-
rest as well as of affection which should ever exist between the
two countries.

Mr. FOX MAULE said, that he was perfectly aware that
he could scarcely command the attention of the House at that
hour, when more distinguished individuals were expected to
address it, but he felt that it would be necessary for him to
detain them for a very short time while he explained the rea-
sons
why he intended to vote against the second reading of this
Bill. He thought that the Right Hon. Baronet had not made
out a case for the allowance of this grant, nor had he (Mr.
F. Maule) heard from that (the Ministerial) side of the House
one argument to disprove the saying of his Hon. Friend near
him, that this measure had an ulterior object. The Right Hon.
Baronet had said that his Hon. Friend had no right to make
that supposition. He ( Mr. F. Maule) would grant that the
Right Hon. Gentleman was right in contradicting the line of
sasgument advanced by his Hon. Friend, provided he had proved
to the House that those anticipations were not well grounded. But
he had not chosen to give his own friends or the House the
smallest hint to guide them in this case.—( Hear, hear. )
He (Mr. F. Maule) grounded his opposition to this Bill on
the assamption that this was no final measure—(Cheers)—but
that there would be an ulterior course adopted which he
could not and would not approve. He thought that no one
could doubt, unless indeed the Right Hon. Baronet himself
would, that there was a strong feeling in the public mind on
this subject, and that the petitions which had been presented
to .this House did not b
emanate from any system of centraliza-
tion, but from the general
feeling. That one which the Right
Hon. Baronet had himself the other day presented was an ex-
ception to the rule, but it would have been the height of in-
gi atitude if that petition had not been presented at that time.
NVhy, those parties hyaedar,a oftil their own before
that House last and
peertltionßsominantheirCafathvooluire!
of Ireland had presented numerous
Ingratitude if the Dis-
It would then have been the height
'enters of Scotland had not come forwardlie hopedir) support the
that the
question in
reland.
nssixsan Catholics upon this question.
Howe would acquit him of all wish to discuss this
a spirit of hostility to the Roman Catholic
—( Hear, hear.) He would not enter into any religious
dis-
pute whatever. He thought he had a right to discuss this isas
a political mea=ure of the Government ; but in doing so it
was impossible to avoid some reference to the effect of the
measure upon the religious feelings of this country._
(Near, hear.) He maintained that the grant to Maynooth
was not a matter of contract. Look to the origin of the vote
and you would find it originated in 1795 ; and he could not help
thinking from all that he saw in the paltry grant of ti,ooo/.,that
jt was nothing more than a subscription on the part of the
Government, at the time when they had granted to the people of
Icolarul the great boon of being allowed to establish an institu-
tion for the education of their own clergy. It was a boon to
the people, to allow them to erect places where they could
themselves educate their priesthood. That was a boon worth
the Irish people's receiving. But as that paltry grant was
given then, and continued since, it was only meant as a bene-
volence of the Government, to assist the private benevolence
of individuals. He was not prepared to discontinue the grant,
'-itiance as it now was, he held that to
testion from that at present before the
The question was not now whether
old grant, but whether they would
id permanent endoement.—( Hear.)
was even to be by an annual vote,
luestion the same as the mere eon-
that was a question not now before
ifisition on this, that it was proposed
co fthe education of the Catholic clergy
,)nnexion with the State.—( Hear.)

Was that principle consistent with what they had done in !
other cases ?—( Hear.) They had introduced also another
principle into the grant by taking the Irish Catholic Church
into connexion with the State, without reserving -o the State
any controul over the new establishment.—( Hear.) Was that
the principle on which they had proceeded in other m fitters?—
( Cheers.) It wa: not—and he stood there as an example of
the opposite principle.—( Hear, hear.) When he came to
the House with petitions and claims of right, from the Presby-
terian people of Scotland. setting forth the privileges to which
they considered themselves entitled by ancient statutes, sod by
the articles of union—when he claimed that they should have
in the Scotch Church the management of their own spiritual
welfare and should not be interfered with by the State—he was
told by Gentlemen who supported the measure now, that
the claim was monstrous and inconsistent to have a Church in
connexion with the State, over which the State should have
no control. That was the case with the Scotch Church ; and
four hundred of her most active ministers, and nearly a million
of her most faithful people were driven from her pale. —( Hear.
hear.) How then could Gentlemen opposite come forward
now to ask him, a member of the Free Church of Scotland, to
support them, on public grounds, in a measure for placing the
Roman Catholics in connexion with the State in respect to en-
dowment, not under the control of the State ?—(Cheers.) If
they were right in this case, how unjust had they been in the
case of the Scotch Church ?—( Hear.) If they were right in
that case, how could they turn round now, and take the oppo-
site course ?—( Hear, hear.) He understood the course
of the Government as little as he understood the advice
of the Right Honourable Baronet opposite to Irish landlords—
advice, however, in which he (Mr. Fux Maule) concurred—to
give sites for the building of houses of worship, and of schools,
and to assist their tenantry in the education of their clergy?
Was it the intention of the Right Honourable Baronet to ad-
vise a member of his own Cabinet, sitting in the other house,
to act in the same spirit towards his poor tenantry in Scotland ?
Cheers. ) Was it the intention of the Right Honourable
Baronet to remonstrate with that Member of his own Govern-
ment for refusing his poor tenants a site for building a place of
meeting, for which they were willing to pay, or to allow them
even to assemble on a corner of the old moor—so that they
were compelled to meet fur prayer upon the Sabbath at the
place where three reads met ?—( Hear, hear, hear.) The name
was familiar to the Right Honourable Baronet.—( Hear, hear.)
But it was said that the Parliament ought to take compassion
upon Irish poverty. He did not know that. They were told
that there were eight millions of htoman Catholics in
Ireland ; and he did not think that they ought to be behind
hand with the seven or eight hundred thousand Presbyterians
of the Free Church of Scotland, who were thrown upon their
own resources, and in the last two years had erected six hun-
dred chapels, and had raised a sum of 600,0001. fur various
ecclesiastical purposes.—( Hear, hear.) No one would say
that the members of the Free Church were of the richer class
in Scotland, on the contrary they were of the poorer: Now
he believed that no people held their religion more dear than
the Catholics of Ireland, and he would say to them, "instead
of coming here for this endowment, you should follow the ex-
ample of the Scotch Presbyterians, and we will assist you, by
repealing still further the Mortmain Act—and then you will be
far more respected in this country than by coming here for an
endowment."—( Hear, hear.) But they had heard a very
extraordinary statement as to the condition of the Col-
lege, which they were told was so wretched as to
call for legislative relief. But, last year, a countryman of his
went over to Maynooth, and visited the College ; and he has
published his opinion of its condition and arrangements—he
meant Mr. James Grant. That gentleman described the situa-
tion of the place and its nature, and then went on to describe the
interior. He said that all the arrangments were excellent, and
well adapted to the purposes of such an institution. The young
men were well fed, comfortably lodged, and cleanly clad.
Mr. SHEIL—Oh ! that was a Scotchman's account.—

(Immense laughter. )
Mr. F. MAULE—It was the opinion of a Scotchman who
was very hospitably received, and had every opportunity of
judging of what he described.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. Grant
did not write like one who was actuated by a hostile spirit.—
But from his description of the condition of the student, it
seemed questionable that the statements the House had re-
ceived the other night were not in some degree overcharged.—
( Hear, hear.) With regard to the conciliation of this measure,
he would say, that only two years ago, the Right Hon.
Baronet told the House that conciliation had reached its ut-
most limits towards Ireland.—( Cheers. ) This was one of
the concessions which always came from the Right Hon.
Baronet's party—and which always came too late.— ( Cheers )
Mr. O'Connell denied the conciliation, and thanked them
for no more than the posses ion.—( Hear, hear.) He said
that he would go on with agitation until he got all that
he wanted.—( Hear. ) If they wished to coiciliate, they
ought to have done so in some way that would not excite the
religious feelings of the people of this country. —( hear. )
For his part he was disposed to do justice to Ireland in the
fullest sense of the word. But he would ask, was there no op-
portunity of doing so in matters in which the people of Eng
land might have looked on as impartial judges in their poli-
tical character?—( Cheers. ) Was there no franchise in which
concession to Ireland would creato no religious rancour in
England ?—( Cheers. ) What became of the zeal of the Right
Hon. Baronet, when he passed over the franchise, which
they might have proposed to equalise, and in which he, for one,
would assist them with a liberal hand ?—( Cheers. ) There
were other questions on which they could have laid their
hands without violation to any religious feeling.—( Hear,
hear.) He thought the Right Hon. Baronet could not allow
this debate to close without stating explicitly whether the

measure was intended as a prelude to the endowment of the
Catholic clergy as a body.-- (Cheers.) He could not under-
stand how, after their conduct on the question of the Church
of Scotland, they could propose to endow the Church of a
different religion in a neighbouring country, and excltrie the
interference of the State. That would be an act of injustice

to the whole body of the Dissenters in this country. I.'or his
part, he had always opposed the principle, and although he
was a member of the Church of Scotland, and was a friend to
Church extension, when Dr. Chalmers, ten years afro (in
1835), was making great efforts for that object, 'he at

that time opposed a public grant, on the grounds of his present
opposition to the measure before the Howe—( Hear, and
cheers) and whether from such an accidental union
as that of the Right Hon. Member for Oxford, or from any
other motive, he could succeed in stopping this Bill, he knew
not. But this he knew, that the proposal would not allay agi-
tation in Ireland, whilst it had raised up an agitation in Eng-
land to feelings of bitterness which it would take no small
time to allay.—( Cheers. )
A great number of Members use at once to speak, amidst
great laughter, and it took the Speaker some seconds to decide
that his eye had first been caught by
Lord CASTLEREAGH, who said that as he was desirous
of addressing the House upon this question. he was glad to rise
after his Hon. Friend the Member for Perth, to whom he was
extremely sorry he should be opposed ; although he must also
say that he was not so opposed to his Hon. Friend in any spirit
of party.—.( Hear, hear. ) His Hon. Friend had alluded to a
petition which had been presented in favour of the Bill from a
body of Presbyterians in his (Lord Castlereagh's) county, and
he (Lord Castlereagh) was glad to have an opportunity of bear-
ing testimony to their high religious character and liberality.
With reference to the question, the House or the country
had no right to declaim for being taken by surprise. He (Lord
Castlereagh) and his friends were prepared for some great
measure being proposed for Ireland, and it was his astonish-
ment to find that this, the first one, was so exceedingly trifling.
They had discussed this grant for fifty years. For fifty years
it had been the unceasing cause of squabble and noise, and they
had come down to the House with various feelings, but the
great feeling that prevailed was, that the Irish people never
thanked them for their parsimony; they gave them 9,0001.,
but they gave it to them gradually, and they did not thank
them. He was glad that the first thing done in this measure
was the setting at rest the question of whether the grant was
to be continued or not. When that was the question, he
voted against the grant, but not against his Catholic fellow
countrymen, for Heaven knew that the first time he spoke
in that House, he addressed it in the cause of his
Roman Catholic fellow countrymen. He did not see what harm
the emancipation had done them, or how it led to agitation.
He was not one of those who believed that repeal was a re-
ligious question. Whether they had already reaped the fruits
of that measure or not—and he was of opinion that they had—
they would yet know that the boon they had given to the Irish
could not be forgotten' and, sooner or later, they would reap
sufficient advantage. The people of England were peculiarly
jealous upon the subject of what he might call the " No Popery"
city. The petitions presented to Parliament would show the
feeling of the people ; but he thought it was the duty of the
Government, under such circumstances, to temper the feeling,
and to lay a broad foundation of justice, whereon to build a
superstructure of good government.—( Cheers.) They should
not yield to the pressure without; if they did, they would have
yielded long ago to the Anti-Corn-law League; nor would
they have resisted the repeal agitation, which, he was sorry
his fellow-countrymen paid too much attention to. It was the
duty of the Minister to temper such a feeling without laying
aside his own intention, and a good intention of carrying out
a beneficial measure. Honourable Members were pursuing a
consistent course in opposing everything like concession to the
Roman Catholics—they were afraid of Popery. He ( Lord
Castlereagh) thought that the experience of twenty years, and
the information received from those who would bring forward
their conscientious opinions in a Court of Justice, would have
removed such prejudices.--(Hear.) He and his colleague
received a requisition, signed by several young gentlemen of
property in the county of Down, which he had the honour to
represent. It was signed by many of his earliest and best
friends, who entreated himself and his colleague to give oppo-
sition to the Bill of the lion. Baronet. A letter from a friend
of his characterised the measure as one calculated to bring
down national judgments upon them. He, however, had a
duty to perform, irrespective of his constituents, and if they
thought he acted wrong they could visit him with the conse-
quences of their displeasure. He deeply regretted this agita-
tion which had sprung up in England, at the head of which
were many great names. He saw Exeter Hall again in the
throes of childbirth—( Laughter) —and he saw placards and
processions parading the streets because they were going to
give a few pounds, as his Hon. Friend had said; but he
would say a sufficiently increased grant to the institution of
Maynooth. He was not going to enter into a theolo-
gical discussion concerning the doctrines that were taught at
Maynooth. He was not a Guy Fawkes or a Peter Dens ;
but he would say that this grant was liberally proposed by the
Right Hon. Baronet, who was not slightly abused or criticised
in that House for the measure which he had the manliness to
bring forward. When he first saw the flirtation between the
lion. Member for Oxford, the representative of the chivalry of
his party and the beauty of Young England, he did not think
that such an alliance would produce fruit—he was of opinion
that it would be a spawn.—( Laughter.) He regretted to hear
the caustic and sarcastic remarks of the Hon. Member fur Shrews-
bury, who he was sorry was not now in his place. He re-
gretted to perceive that his talents were used on the wrong
side ; he wished that he was raising his banner cry for, instead
of against, them. In contradiction to the Hon. Gentleman he
should say that they owed Catholic Emancipation to the Hon.
Baronet at the head of her Majesty's Government, and to his
coadjutor in the House of Lords. He regretted to hear the im-
putations which were cast on the Right Hon. Baronet, and he
could not help thinking that there was some remembrance,
some deep sorrow hovering over the mind of the Hon.
Gentleman, when he looked aboutb and did not see the Member
for Dublin in his place. It had been said by the Hon. Member for
Shrewsbury that he should not have opposed this grant if it was
brought in by the Members opposite. There was
always an opinion, whether right or wrong, that Lord
Melbourne's Government were more or less under the
dictation or subservient to Mr. O'Connell. He (Lord
Cweaeatllderehaagyhe )
beendi d not
carriedthinkb
thatut for Mr.
the Chapels' Dissenters Bill
O'Connell.—( Hear,
hear.)
He (Mr. D'lsraeli) said that he looked with distrust
at any measure coming from the Government, as they were not
the people to give it, and he for one should oppose it. He
could not, therefore' wonder at his (Lord Castlereagh's) telling
him that he should be rather jealous
from the other side of the House, tur
that it was through a spirit of conciliation'h e should uconcession
el ithateve
it would be introduced, butHe uw
nder the dictation of Mr.
O'Connell and his party.
sorry for detaining the
House so long, but he thought it ces
sarf
iyi,,e measure, and ho
hoped as an Irish Mem-
ber,
oGentleman would go onber
,toanadddtrruessstedthe that Housethe Righti app
Hon.raval
in the career which he had adopted—( Hear, hear)—and if by
the dictation of any party he should be left in a minority, he
felt convinced that he could assure them that there would be
found many by his side who would cheer him and share his fall ;
and who would support his measures whether he was on this side
of the House or the other. He would conclude by referring
to a sentence in a pamphlet, written by a gentleman ;n that
House, which contained much better language than he could
express, and which said that it would be very sanguine to ex-
pect that Ireland should be incorporated in feeling or in laws

and for its continu
.
be a s ifere.ntAues
Heti ears. .11
tikv,-4;o' reontinue the 4;1
it' I,to „a fixed and
*rose of the grant
'he .rlii4kat consider the (11
ttb Alsektsfthe old one. But
":7,l:retested his p(
• - eftiblistpent for
of Ireland; 7r—.lWJ col
..j.