The Sun.
London, England, 1842-04-22 00:00:00

• sletertniming roughly the claims of individuals by the amount of
money which
they might chance to possess, expressed as that
be amount might in many particular ways. If a man were
possessed of a 40s. freehold, if he had a 10/, house, then he
would be deemed by the Constitutionof his country sufficiently
intelligent and virtuous to have a voice in the re-
presentation of his country. That was the rough method
by which they sought to attain the end they had in view. Now
he was not about to find fault with anybody ; but he would
addre s himself to the candour of Hon. Gentlemen opposite—to
their knowledge of life, to the experience of their fellow men;
and he would ask them if, in the common and ordinary busi-
ness of life, that was the best mode of ascertaining the
merits of any individuals. Were Honourable Gentlemen
opposite prepared to say that in the ordinary private
transactions of life they would ask if a man had
a 101. household franchise before they would trust him. in any
one important business of life ? Did they ask if he had a
freehold inheritance ? Did they ask if he had a 50/. lease of his
landlord? No, they did no such thing. They judged by other
means ; and be would ask of them this one question—it was a
question which any man who had ever considered the interests
of humanity, as connected with the views of Goveinrnent must
have asked himself—he would ask whether there were not
other means by which they could learn—by which they could
assertain that degree of intelligence and of probity which was
requisite for a participation in the business of Government ?
That House had conferred the business of legislation upon cer-
tain classes in the country. They had excluded the labouring
classes almost to a man from the franchise. He did not say
they had excluded them altogether, for he hated exaggeration ;
and he found it practised too much on both sides of the House.
—( Hear, hear.) He did not say the whole, but he
said that they had excluded a large portion of
the labouring classes from any share of political power.
Now he would ask the Right Hon. Baronet, who had a large
experience of men—he would ask him if he had not met as
candid, as far-seeing, as wise, as honest, as perspicuous minds
among the labouring population of this country, as among its
wealthier classes? He perceived that the Right Hon. Baronet
nodded his assent. But the Constitution excluded these men
from the franchise. Now he asked the Right Hon. Baronet
if it were not a subject for inquiry to endeavour to ascertain
whether these might not be admitted to the rights of the Con-
stitution?—( Hear, hear.) What was the distinction between
the course pursued by the Right Hon. Baronet on that occasion,
and that pursued by his Hen. Friend the Member for Roch-
dale ? He was sure that his Hon. Friend did not assume to
himself any exclusive power of judging of mankind,
and determining what ought to be, or what ought
not to be ; but the only asked of that House, on
that occasion to inquire if there were not means of admitting
those moat deserving and industrious men within the pale of
the Constitution? How had his Hon. Friend been met by
the Right Hon. Baronet ? He was sorry to say he had not
heard the whole of the speech of the Right Hon. Baronet, but
he should say that in the portion which he had heard he did
not see much to admire, either as regarded the spirit, or the
tone, or the manner in which he spoke upon the great ques-
tion. Now, when he said that great question, let him not be
misunderstood—he did not mean to say that great party ques-
tion—there was to be no vote that evening that could
shake the Tory power ; but there was to be a vote
that would go to the heart of the labouring po-
pulation, and when they came to discuss ,that vote,
when they came to ask of the Right Hon. Baronet and of the
Government merely to inquire into. the political condition of
the people of this country—for he did not wish to allude to the
political state of the question—when they asked the Right Hon.
Baronet to consider the political condition of the people, he
would put it to that side of the House and the other--he would
ask of the country, what they thought of the light tone of ridi-
cule, of that spirit of mockery, of that taunting disposition
which had been manifested by the Right Hon. Baronet that
evening? It was not a question, as he had already said, in
which the power of the Right Hon. Baronet was at stake ;
but there was a trial going on of his spirit, and his character,
and his feelings as a leader among his fellow-men.
and if he had not a sympathy with his fellow men; if he were
bound to the chariot wheels of his party, if he were chained to
them, then he was not the man for whom he (Mr. R.) took
him. He believed there was in the mind of the Right
Hon. Baronet a secret feeling of contrition for the course he
was pursuing—that he was ashamed of the course his party
was taking, and that he would willingly, if Hon. Gentlemen
would only permit him, go into that inquiry in the liberal and
candid spirit which the inquiry demanded. And who was
there that would not say that that subject required a liberal and
candid inquiry ? Who was it would say that our Constitution had
fixed upon the best mode of taking the sense of the intelligence
and the virtue of the community? They themselves acknow.
ledged how imperfect were the means they had taken, when
they excluded one large class which contained some of the most
virtuous members of the State. The Right Hon. Baronet ad-
mitted that a large portion of the labouring classes were ex-
cluded from political power, and all that he (Mr. 11.) and his
lion. Friend asked was, that going upon no political theory,
the House should inquire whether there were not sonic means of
admitting the working classes within the political pale without
exposing to any risk any one of the ;peat interests. As tar as he
could see the only interest that was endangered was the mono-
rily of political power possessed by the landed aristocracy. He ad-
mitted that an extension of the franchise would destroy, t he mono-
poly, but it would not destroy the Constitution. lie would ask the
{louse if there was any danger to be apprehended to property
by admitting within the pale of the Constitution the great
body of the labouring classes? That was the question to be
discussed ; that was the question at issue ; that was the ques-
tion which his lion. Friend the Member for Rochdale asked
of the House to consider in Committee. His lion. Friend
put forward no proposal, but he asked of the House to inquire—
admitting as he did these people to be virtuous and en.
lightened—he asked of them to inquire if there were no means
of admitting them to a share of political power with safety to
the community ? And what was the answer of the Right
Hon. Baronet ? He had heard a large portion of the speech
of the Right lion. Baronet, and what does the speech touch
upon ? A dexterous debater the Right Honourable Ba-
ronet had no doubt proved himself to be ; the
Right Honourable Baronet had turned the battery of
the Hon. Member for Finsbury against the Hon. Member for
Rochdale, he talked of triennial Parliaments, and comparing
them with annual Parliaments, he enlarged on the benefits of
the payment of Members. But they were not to be thus de-
luded from the point at issue. The point at issue was, whe-
ther the labouring classes might not be admitted to a participa-
tion in political power. The answer was " No," from the
Ministerial benches opposite. And why ? Because of the al-
leged danger to property. But no extension of the franchise
could so certainly endanger the security of property as that the
Legislature should use its power for the benefit of a particular
class, namely, the landed aristocracy. They talked to him of
the mischief of a minimum of wages, and ho put in opposition
to that their Corn. laws. The party opposite had power—the
people had none. The party opposite talked of the danger to
property ; and the people who suffered and pined under their
present state, entreated, prayed, cried, demanded of that House
simply to inquire into their political condition. The Right
Hon. Baronet, however, cut jokes at their expense.—( Hear. )
lie told them of the revolutions of the planets with great sar-
casm and much point, no doubt; but he (Mr. Roebuck) did
not think these allusions were relevant to the subject.
He asked of them if that were the right way,
when the people demanded of them a participation
in that political power which they in that House were every
hour using for their own benefit. He asked of them, whe-
ther that was the right way to meet the popular demand,
when expressed in the calm language of his Hen. Friend?
Was that the manner in which they treated the claims of a
people, who, in the midst of their privations, bad exhibited
a heroism, of which the class to which Honourable Gentle-
men in that House belonged, knew nothing ?—( Hear. )
He asked if this was the manner in which it was proper to
meet the demands, the prayers, of the great body of the labour-
ing population of this country ? He must say that the labour-
ing population deserved the greatest, the kindest, the most
intense consideration : it was their hands that had built tap the
mighty power of this country ; by their virtue it was supported
by their patience and fortitude it was maintained; they were
their bretheren in spirit and in feeling; they felt within them-
selves a power equal to their own. They say they are our
equals in virtue and intelligence, and when they ask for power
at the hands of this House, they are met by a cold taunt from
the Right Hon. Gentleman. He again asked was this
decent, was this proper, was this worthy of a great
statesman ?--( Cries of .4 Oh, oh.") He wished to concentrate
his responsibility.—(" Oh, oh !") They might cry "Oh !"
he wished they would pitch it an octave higher—it would have
just the same effect. He repeated that the Right Hon. Gentle-
man was the Minister, and on him rested the responsibility ; on
his head, at the present moment, rested the great responsibility
of the Government of England. He would go forth to-morrow
with that responsibility upon him, and when the people came to
consider in what way their demands have been treated, they
would single forth the speech of that Right Hon. Gentleman,
and if they felt any power within them, they would ask if it was
not heartless, contemptuous, and disregardful of all the feelings
of the people ? If such should be their inquiry, what must be
the answer, but that the Right Hon. Gentleman had thus
treated the sober, calm, prudent, and fair demands of the great
body of the labouring population of this country.—(" Oh, oh !")
He could not have a nobler ancestry, and he, like the Right
lion. Baronet, should glory in it; but he hoped there would
also be in his heart so much sympathy with that class, that he
should not have turned round on the great body of his country-
men, arid deny them a fair share in the representation of this
country. Why did they ask it ? It had been said because of
the misery existing among them • he believed that some of the
causes of that misery, laid much deeper than their not being
represented in that House ; but they would never be able to
read the people that lesson till they were actually admitted to
th I Legislature. They would then see how much of that
misery it was impossible to reach by legislation. They had
been told that if the people were admitted to power
they would destroy all that was good and benefi-
ial in the Consitution. He repeated it was presumptuous
arrogance in them to pretend to such superiority over the work-
ing classes, when it existed not either in virtue, intelligence, or
any quality which a human being ought to posseses.—(" Oh,
oh !") By that cry they were signing their own condemnation,
though they might imagine it an eulogium on their own virtue.
Did they think it right, under such circumstances, to shut out
inquiry ? If they did they would shut the doors of that House in
the face of the labouring population of the country. Did they
do it on the plea of. possessing more virtue,or more intelligence
than they ?—(" No, no.) No ! then why did they do it? Their
only answer was that they did not like to infringe on the
peculiar monopoly which the agricultural community of
this country enjoyed ; and they asserted that they who
now held the reins of power ought to do the bidding of the
agricultural despots of this kingdom.—(Hear, bear, and laugh-
ter.) They might answer him by their cheers ; but when the
people came to know bow this question had been treated, they
would come ,to the conclusion that this House did not possess
all the virtue, or all the intelligence of the community.
Lord STANLEY said,' though he believed that the vio-
lence of the Hon. and Learned Member, who had just sat
down, was of itself almost sufficient to justify the House in
the sight of the country, and a sufficient answer to a speech
which contained no peat number of arguments, but princi-
pally consisted of one, repeated in various forms, and a
great number of times ; and though he doubted not that
his Right; Hon. Friend was quite prepared to take the
responsibility as well as the undivided credit of that eloquent,
able, and convincing speech—( Hear, hear)—Yet as stand-
ing in a somewhat different position, he (Lord S.) having
been one of those who were parties to the introduction of
the Reform Bill—little as he thought of addressing the House
that evening, yet he could not avoid taking a portion of the
responsibility of its views, iror reconcile himself to giving a
silent vote in support of it. They were told that by the vote
to which they were about to come, they should declare that
all the virtue, all the intelligence, and all the public feeling
of this country were centred in the middle and higher classes
of the ealpire.—( Hear, hear.) They asserted no such thing.
They denied not the humblest person the attribute of
every virtue, and all the intelligence to which they
might lay claim. The Hon. Gentleman said that those who
supported the Reform Bill, laid it down that every person con-
tributing directly or indirectly to the taxation of the empire
had an inherent right to enjoy, not the privileges of citizens,
' not the protection of the laws, but the exercise of the privilege
lof returning Members to the Legislature. He only wished he
could appeal to any of those who at that period acted with
him.—(Loud cheers from the Ministerial benches.) He.only
wished he could see one of that Cabinet of Earl Grey who
brought forward the Reform Bill, and that he could appeal to
them whether any such doctrine was broached by any of those
who advocated that measure.--(Cheers.) What they had said
was that the right of voting for Members of the Legislature
was not an inherent right, but a privilege to be granted to
such classes of the community as from their intelligence, sta-
tion, and education, were capable of exercising that privi-
lege wisely and safely. The question they advocated was

• that the time at which the Reform Bill
that time at which it was safe to break dos
restitutions of the country for the purpose of
sphere, and enlarging the limits within which
had not hitherto been enjoyed. But at no time wf..fa-augttedi kA • !
that it was an inherent right. That change had giSecithituelf .
greater influence to the Commons of England, for it was
thought at the time that the measure was almost revolutionary.
It gave representatives to Birmingham, Leeds, Manchester,
Sheffield, and Bath.—(" No," from Mr. Roebuck). If it did
not give representatives to Bath, it took the nomination from
ten or twelve self-elected individuals.—( Cheers. ) Manches-
ter, Leeds, Birmingham, Sheffield and Bath—(Hear, hear)—
the great towns of the empire admitted to a large par-
ticipation in the legislative power of the country; the
small and corrupt boroughs, those which were noto-
riously in the hands of individuals, and could be
made a matter of barter and sale, excluded from the represen •
tation. Tell him that the Reform Bill exercised no influence
Over the legislature of this country. Tell him that it did not
enlarge the influence of the Commons of this country. Tell
him that it did not make a large and extensive alteration in
the constitution of the country. Aye, it was called a revolu-
tion in the political history of this country. He had joined
with Lord J. Russell and Lan Grey ; he joined the Whigs of
that day, those who were not there on the present occasion.
Ile joined with him in saying that it was not convenient to have
a revolution once a year in that House. He joined with him
in saying that it was expedient introducing measures to make
them large at once, to let them be large and extensive ; and
when he was connected with the Government of Lord Grey
they made their measures large and extensive, because they
were determined that they should be measures by which they
could stand, knowing that it they made only slight concessions
demands would be made upon them to which they could not
accede. There were in that House fourteen gentlemen who
were bound to adhere to the Reform Bill as a large concession.
Those Gentlemen admitted that as much of the democratic
principle as was consistent with the safety of the country was
introduced into that Bill. Those Gentlemen formed part of the
Cabinet of Earl Grey, and as one of those Gentlemen, he would
oppose the introduction of measures so rude and ill-
concerted as that before the House—a measure, he would
venture to say, not for the purpose of settling
the country, but for the purpose of unsettling
men's minds, and telling the people out of doors that nothing
was fixed, or could continue. The Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man had told them that the present was a motior for nothing
but inquiry—that was a most convenient doctrine for those
Gentlemen who, agreeing in almost nothing, had agreed only
in unsettling things as they were. The Hon. Member for
Falmouth had said that lie consented to the present motion.
Why did he do so ? Why, he had told them for the sake of
the last seven lines only. The complaint made now was, that
there was not a fair representation of the people, and therefore
that it was the duty of the House to take the subject intc its
consideration, but the seven lines clung to by the Hon. Alem-
her for Falmouth would exclude all the substance of the
lion. Member for Rochdale's motion. The question of
extending the right of voting to the adult popula-
tion, subject to no limitation.—( Hear.) The vote
by ballot. The no-qualification of Members, annual Parlia-
ments, and all these things the Hon. Member for Falmouth
ould exclude, but he said vote for the inquiry, for the sake of
the last seven lines. They talked of voting for inquiry.
What inquiry he would ask was meant? Was it at the bar of
the House? Was it meant to bring forward any new evidence
--any new facts, or did it mean an inquiry before a Committee
of the whole llouse ? The truth was, the Hon. Gentleman
wanted no inquiry—all lie wanted was the affirmation of a
principle, he knowing perfectly well that he would not be
enabled to find a sufficient number of Members to vote
with him, in order to enable ban to wary it. Why, he
would ask did not all these Honourable Gentlemen move
for leave to bring in Bills ; let them embody in Bills the sepa-
rate views they entertain for the reformation of the representa-
tion of the people. If they did so what an anomaly of Bills
there would be.—( Hear, hear, and laughter.) He believed
that there would no one be found who would agree to their
terms. Then it was asked, whether it was the intention on that -
side of the House to cast a slur on the working classes of the
country, to which he answered, Certainly not. Then it was
said that all that was wanted was an inquiry as to whether cer-
tain parties were fit to perform the particular duties
committed to then. Tell him ( Lord S.) of bribery
and corruption; tell him of the want of intelligence;
and then tell him whether they were to inquire of every
individual, if he was fit to perform the duties of legislation.
They talked about the inquisitorial nature of the Income-
tax ; for his part, he thought nothing was more inquisitorial
than the inquiry proposed, the amount of which was, whether
a party had iiitaligence enough to exercise the electoral
franchise. He ( Lord S.) did not know who the grand in-
quisitor might be ; but (.f this he was certain, that nothing
was mere absurd. The Hon. Gentleman said they applied a
rough justice. They certainly (lid so in one way, because
they stated that the privilege of representation should ne
given to men of certain means and fixed state
in tiie country, as they were the more likely to
have that education and intelligence which fitted
them for it. The higher and middle classes down to a certain
point, be that what it might, were more likely to •be pos-
sessed from superior means and advantages given by their
situation, of the necessary quality to fit them for represen-
tatives. He (lid net mean for a moment to say that they
had more intelligence and virtue than the lower
classes, but the education they had received he
thought would enable them to act with more advantage to the
country ; but what did the Hon. Member for Stockport say?
Why, he said lie believed that the Legislature was the cause of
all the evils, that it was the cause of the want and distress that
prevailed in the country.
Mr. COBDEN—I did not say so.
Lord STANLEY—I am glad to hear the Hon. Member
say that.
Mr. COBIJEN rose to explain amid loud cr:es of " Order,
order," and " Spoke, spoke."
Lord STANLEY—If the Hon. Gentleman disclaims the
statement, I withdraw it.—(Laughter.)
Mr. COIIDEN—I will explain afterwards.
Lord STANL EY—That's quite the Parliamentary course.—
(Laughter and much cheering.) He (Lerd Stanley) heat d
the Hon. Member for Stockport say that his constituents com-
plained hardly of the state of the representation ; that they did
so front the state of poverty in which they were, and attributing
it to the character of the Legislature. It was possible, there-
fore, under such circumstances, that the lion. Member's con-
, stituents were not the most impartial judges in the distress
under which they laboured. They might suppose that mea-
sures should be passed for their release, which measure's,
when they came to be looked into, might be most unwise.
He would not enter further into a discussion of the varione
questions brought forward by the Right Hon. Gentleman off o-
site. This only he would say, that if they desired to amend
the Reform Bin, let them come forward honestly and tell
what their proposition was, and how they meant to bring it
forward. They were acting under responsibility to large classes
of the community, ani they ought to beware, when they at-
tempted to extend the suffrage, le*t they would diminish the
independence of their constituenciee. Whatever their propo-
sitions were, let them be brought forward distinctly. Let them
enable the House at least to judge of them as a whole
—as a measure ; but let them not continue to agitate
the country by mincing for a Committee to inquire
into that which was at present settled. Let them not seek to
unsettle men's minds with a vague notion for an inquiry into
the state of the representation, particularly when they knew
that they could effect no object but to introduce new elements
of discord—new elements of instability and uncertainty into
' different portions of the Constitution, which should be fined,
certain, and secure.

Captain PLUMRIDGE explained. He had stated his in-
tention to support only the last seven lines of the motion,
whereas he was supposed by the Noble Lord to go the whole
length with the proposition before the House.
Lord STANLEY had only attributed to the Hon. Member
an intention of voting in favour of the last seven lines of the
motion.

Mr. COBDEN explained that what he said in reference to
the people of Stockport was, that they attributed their suffer-
ings to the present constituted state of Parliament.
sir T. WILDE rose amidst loud cries of 4, Divide."
" Order, order." He said he wished to explain the ground on
which he would give his vote on the present question. He did
not feel that he could support the present motion, as he did
not think it likely to lead to any practical good. It was un-
doubtedly a very popular course to apply to the House to
enter into an inquiry ; but surely when the House resolved
itself into Committee, it was not with a view generally of re-
ceiving evidence, and making a report to the public, it was to
come to a resolution on a particular proposition. On such oc-
casions, the questions to be submitted to the Committee were
generally pointed out. 'Tie present. proposition had a preamble
which distinctly pointed out the matters to be submitted to the
Committee, but it would be an idle duty for the House to
pertOrm to go into Committee and hear speeches on a great
variety of propositions. The object of this Committee was to
take the opinion of the House on what was called the Charter.
OM that subject he had made up his mind, and he did not think
that. any useful result would come of such an inquiry ; and
when such was the case, considering the present state of Par-
liamentary business, and the great need there was of despatch-
ing it With as little delay as possible, he thought it very inex-
pedient to proceed with such an inquiry at the present
time.—(lle ar, hear. ) With respect to what had fallen
from the Right lion. Baronet—whatever opinion he might
have on the proposition before the House, there was nothing
in his observations which could be construed into a slight upon
the working classes. His lion. and Learned Friend had made
a mistake in attributing anything of the kind to the Right.
bionourable Baronet. With respect to the motion before
the !louse he ( Sir T. Wilde) thought it right to vote against it,
Sir R. PEEL thanked the lion. and Learned Gentleman
lor the very just construction which he had put upon his
speech. lie had stated that he felt that as a great body of
his fellow-subjects had stated their wishes with respect to re-
form in decorous and respectful language, he could not tecon-
tale it to himself to give a silent vote; neither would his respect
for the integrity and motives of the movers allow him to keep
silence.—( hear, hear.) But he must say he thought it very
hard if gentlemen would use absurd arguments, that he should
not be at liberty to point. out their absurdity without being
liable to the imputation that he was showing disrespect, not to
the arguments, but to the labouring classes.—( Hear.)
Mr. WALLACE rose to order. (Cries of "Order,
order.") lie submitted that this was not explanation; he
called upon the Chair to say whether it was so. lie (Mr.
Wallace) considered that it was a seam d speech.—(Hear. )
The SPEAKER said the Right lion. Baronet was perfectly
in order.—( Hear. )
Sir 11. PEEL said, surely if an Hon. and Learned
tleman referred to a speech of his, a part of which he did noa
which was not just, he
sentence, that he thought
hear, and put a cousti uction upon it
was perfectly in order in correcting that misconstruction ; and
he was only going to add one single
he showed more respect for the labouring classes, by, notwith-
standing
o his corrections, coming down there at five o'clock,
and listening to every word of the debate, than if he had
come—
Mr. ROEBUCK rose to order. This was another
amidst.speech--
said-11, is an till saying, Sir, that "fair
(Lund cries of " Hear, bearamidst.which air Robert Peel
sat down. )
--(Laughter ) Notwithstanding
w}tat has been said by Right lion. Baronet opposite, and.
Learnedby the Hon. and words butter nuj ntiparsnips.'
'.,
Gentleman below me, I agree i
ts
tine statement of the lion. Member far Bath.—( Laughter
from the Ministerial benches.) Ido say, again, that I con-
ceive, in the statement of the lion. and-Learned Member for
Bath, speech of the Right lion. Baronet was derisive
to the tlia'
classes, and that it was not such a speech
abtotu the
labouring
as the Right Honourable Baronet ought to have made.
Thin Right lion Baronet alluded to the earth and the sun.
(Great laughter.)
The Right Hon. Baronet—(Cheers from
the :Ministeriall benches)—ihe Right Hon. Baronet—(Re-
uewcdebeers)—the Right lion. Baronet.—(Cheers and great
laughter, which rendered it impossible for the Hon. Gentle-
man to proceed.) I really do not know why .I should not
have a hearing.—(hear, hear, from the Opposition benches. )
I do not wish to take up mach of the time of the house-1
was merely going to wake a few observations.—(Cries of
" Oh, oh.") I beg to state. that I perhaps have as
much right to speak on this subject as almost any Member
of this House. This question is said to be a Chartist ques-
tion. The house will probably recollect. an occurrence which
took place in Monmouthshire.—(Cheers.) 1 believe I have
always represented since I have been in this House popular
opinions, and have always endeavoured to do my duty to the
constituency that sought me out.—( Great laughter.) I was
invited to become a Aleinber of Parliament, and I
consented to accept the invitation.—( Renewed laughter. )
1 do not know why this should be a laughing
matter. I was going to state that I was invited to become the
representative of my constituents in this House.—(Contintn:

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