The Sun.
London, England, 1827-06-30 00:00:00

betore and ask in what page he was to be questioned, and
to prepare himself accordingly. It was therefore absUrd to
se Judges from the Scotch bar. Let men be sent who
w -e imbued with the principles of English law, and trial
il
by Jury. If civil lawyers were required, let them be taken
frer Doctors' Commons; but it was perfectly absurd to go
to he Scotch bar to look for them. He Merely threw out
the suggestions incidentally. He was sure that the sub-
ject would meet the attention of Government.
Ir. W. HORTON observed, in reference to what had
fal en from his Hon. and Learned Friend, that Government
dit
not loee sight of the ptinciple of sending out persons
to }administer the law in the colonies who were thoroughly
itribued with the principles of English law. On a re-
cent occasion, two of the judges sent out came , precisely
within the description of those persona whoin his Hon.
add Learned Flieno was desirous of seeing placed in such
situations; but it was at the time thought necessary, and,
indeed, it was recommended by the highest authorities in
this country, to send out a gentleman acquainted with the
prrctice of the civil law, it being likely that questions
might arisd .in which his knowledge of that branch of
jurisprudence would be of the greatest utility.—(Hear,)
-Now, with respect to the question immediately be-
fore the House, the House must be aware that the case
of, the Noble Lord hail now been before it for two
yehrs. They must be aware that paper after paper bad
been laid upon the table, and they must likewise be
aware of the extreme.expence incurred by retaining Com-
missioners at the Cape to sift into the charges preferred
against the Noble Lord. It must also be in the recollection
or, the House, that the Hon. Member for Arundel, after
predging himself to bring forward a specific accusation, bad,
fde reasons-with which he (Mr. W. Horton) was utterly
unacquainted, abandoned that intentioc. The House, like-,
wise, would not forget that on two separate occasions he
had appealed to the Hon. Member for Arundel on the
elincipies of justice and courtesy, to inform him what were
the charges which he intended to prefer against Lord C.
Sinerset, in order that the Noble Lord might. be prepared
tai defend himself, and that he (Mr. W. Horton) might be
enabled to collect the information which might be neces-
sary for that purpose. The Session had now approached
14 termination, and the Hon. Member for Arundel had
neither brought his charges forward, nor communicated
the nature of them. Without implying that the free will
a any Member of that House should be fettered, or that
14 should not be at liberty to make or. refuse to make' a
motion as he pleased, he must contend that it was unjust
that a charge should longer be allowed to hang over the
Noble Lord. In all the charges which had been brought
aiainst Lord Charles Somerset, he had been accused of cor-
reption, and of every thing which was disgraceful to a man
plhis situation. If any person took the pains to read the
titions which had been presented, they would be found
tq contain accusations of that description. The parties
ring those accusations had not ventured to follow them
u by proof, and therefore it was but fair to consider the
oble Lord acquitted with respect to them.—(Hear, hear,
ar.)—Having been called upon by the Noble Lord—
( . Somerset) to state what was the opinion enter-
ined by Government with respect to the case of
s Noble Relative, he could declare, that the Noble Se-
cretary for the Colonies saw no reason to consider any one
of the charges preferred against him as in the slightest
degree substantiated, which affected his character as a man
or honour and a gentleman.—(Hear, hear.) He did not
' tliink it necessary to go into further detail at that moment,
and would therefore conclude with declaring, that in his
dpinion the House must, when they considered the many
' opportunities which had been presented of making out a
clam against Lord C. Somerset, and the manner in which
',. those opportunities had been neglected, be convinced of the
impropriety of longer suffering charges to hang over the
*obit LOrd.—(Hear, hear.)

4 Mr. HUME disclaimed the idea of there being any
thing like a conspiracy against Lord Charles Somerset.
in
he case of each petitioner constituted a separate griev-
ce. When individuals were blamed for allowing charges
hang over the Noble Lord, it ought to be recolleCted,
at the report of the Commissioners had only been laid
raove the House during the present session. His opinion
s, that it was the bounden duty of Government to in-
titute an inquiry on the subject the first thing in the
text Session.

Mr. F. PALMtiI. understood that Sir R. Donkin had
Itatrd to the head of the Colonial Department, that he had

charge to make against Lord C. Somerset, and that Lord
athurst declined to entertain the charge. He (Mr. F.
almer) had himself seen a letter, signed by the Right
on- Secretary, telling Sir R. Donkin that Lord Bathurst
id not wish him to king forward his charge.—(Hear.)
t—That fact ought to be set at rest. He spoke in the pre-
eence of the Right Hon. Secretary, who could contradict
Lim if he staked that which was ituawsset. • As the et...-
inter of Sir R. Donkin was in some degree affected by

what had passed, it might not be immaterial to put the '
douse in possession of the fact, that he had filled the of-
fee of Governor of the Cape for two years all. but five
ays, in such a manner as to obtain "for him the thanks of
is Majesty, of every public department at the Cape, and
f the inhabitants of the Cape generally.--(Hear.)—These
Marks of approbation were bestowed upon. Sir R. Doirkin
pot at a time when he was in power, but when he was out
pf office, and had left the colony. Whilst Sir R. Donkin
acted as Governor he effected some extensive improve-
ents. Amongst other things, he reduced the expen-
liture to the extent of half a million. When Sir Rufane
)onkin left office, the expenditure was 300,000 rix dol-
lars, and in 1823 it was augmented to 1,300,000.
-16 could not consent to give a general verdict of
acquittal in behalf of Lord Charles Somerset, be-
cause one charge had proved to be without:foundation. He
had hitherto seen only one report from the Commissioners ;
but he understood there Were to be nine altogether. Was
he to suppose that because the first report contained heavy
!natter against the Noble Lord, the remaining eight would
acquit him of all blame ? It was indispensably necessary
that the whole case should be fully inquired into. One
thing was clear, namely, that the inhabitants of the Cape
and the people of England would not acquit his Lord-
ship until an investigation had taken place. ,He would say
one word in the way of apology for the Honourable Member
who had not brought forward a motion in reference to this
subject of which he had given, notice. It had been stated
from good authority, that so long as there was a prospect
of Lord Charles Somerset's return to the Cape, the in-
habitants of the colony would be afraid to come forward to
substantiate any charge against him, but would rather sub-
mit to the evils they endured than provoke his Lordship's
further severity by appearing as witnesses against him.—
,(Hear.)—That appeared to him a sufficient reason why
;the Hon. Member alluded to had not proceeded with his
motion. He would conclude by asking the Right Hon.
;Secretary whether he intended to lay the further reportsof
the Commissioners on the table ?

Air. W. HORTON felt it necessary, in consequence of
what had fallen from the Hon. Member (Mr. F. Palmer),
to repeat what he had said on a former evening. Sir R.
Donkin stated in the first instance, that he could make dis-
closuies which would cover Lord Charles Somerset with
ruin. That declaration
,was very naturally construed into
a charge by Lord Bathurst, and he thought the House would
be of opinion that when one public man spoke in such
terms of another, it was not forcing. the meaning of the
English language to put that construction upon them. Sir
R. Donkin, however, disclaimed the intention of bringing
forward a charge against the Noble Lord. He said, he
meant nothing of the kind. That being the case, Lord
Bathurst told him .finally, that as he did not mean to bring
forward any charge, the Colonial Department would not
call upon him for any further information, because they had
other means of arriving at a knowledge of the facts of the
case. He left it to the House to decide whether Sir R.
Donkin had not retracted his charge.—(Hear.)--With re-
spect to putting the House in possession of all the reports of
' the Commissioners, he must say that he could undertake
to do no such thing. Many of the reports would refer to
local points wholly unconnected with the subject under
discussion. If it should appear proper to lay any of the
future reports upon the table of the House, he would do so,
but he would not pledge himself to any precise course. It
was sufficient that Government acted on their responsibi-
lity, and would be prepared to defend themselves when
called upon.—(Hear.)
Mr. BARING thought it was equally unjust to Lord
C. Somerset and to the petitioners, for a Member to place
a notice of ;notion upon the order-book, and afterwards to
withdraw it without assigning the slighteit reason for the
proceeding.—(llear.),-He felt bound to acquit the Noble
Lord of the gross charges of personal corruption which had
been brought against him, but he could not help consider
ing hit" government a misfortune to the Cape.
Lord F; L. GOWER said he shoUld feel it his duty to
oppose any future inquiry into personal charges against
Lord C.. Somerset, after the many opportunities which had
pl:ieeerniodn. li
eglectede
had taken ofbringing them f a ward before the Present
some
pain 4
to make himself ac-
quainted with the charges made against the -Noble Lord,
and believed them to be totally groundless;_ (Hear.)
The papers were then-Ordered to lie on the table.
Mr. LAWLEY presented a petition from the town of
Birminghaio, praying that the Bill for enabling 'that town
to send Members to ParliaMent might pads into a law.
Mr. LITTLETON supported the petition:
Sir C. FORBES opposed it.
Mr. TENNYSON was anxious tLat the House sLUiri

Bear it read at length.'. -(Cries of "No, no," from all sides

of the House.)
The petition was then ordered to lie on the table.
MONOPOLY OF THE WATER COMPANIES.
Sir R. WILSON presented a petition from the parish
of St. George, Southwark, cornplainin of the monopoly
arranged by the inter companles of London, and of .the
arbitrary charges and exactions of those bodies. 'the Hon.
Member said, that he himself was aware of the truth of
great part of the petitioners' complaints, and should cer-
tainly, in the neat Scsainni endeavoUr to bring foils and
some measure which should relieve theni.
Mr. BERNAL presented a petition from the fishermen
of 'Gravesend, praying to be relieved from the operation of
the Act of the 47th of George 111., which limited the
number of hands V.-hich they were allowed to employ on
. .

board their boats, in proportion to their tonnage;
Mr. HERRIES said, that the law complained of was
enacted with a view to the' prevention of smuggling,but the
case should be inquired into; and any inconvenience under
which the petitioners laboured, as tar as possible removed.
Sir C. BURRELL presented a petition from East Grin-
stead, praying
.that a duty might be imposed on foreign

wool.
Mr. LENNARD moved for certain returns connected

with the law regarding the grant of patents.

BANK, OF ENGLAND.
Mr. LITTLETON Moved for an account of the amount
of composition paid for stamps by the Bank of England
for the present year : together with a statement whether
the Branch-banks connected with the Bank of England
drew their bills upon London without stamps. The object
of the motion was to ascertain whether, in the rate of com-
position levied, the Bank of England had not an advantage
over the private banks.
Mr. HERRIES said that nothing could be farther from
the intention of Government than to afford any such ad-
vantage; nor did he believe that the Bank of England de-
sired to hold any such. If, by accident, the existing law
gave the Bank any such advantage, indeed, he had no
doubt that they would be disposed, without waiting for any
new enactment, at once to waive it.
Mr. MABERLY said that the whole difficulty would
be settled, if the branch banks of the Bank of England

would consent to draw upon stamps.
"Mr. PEARSE said a few words in so low a tone, that
it was difficult to collect their meaning. We understood
the Hon. Member to say tkat the Bank of England would
be disposed to act with perfect fairness and equity.
The motion was agreed to.
Mr. Alderman THOMPSON presented a petition from
Messrs. Fish and Collins, tobacconists,, complaining of an
oppressive prosecution of the Excise-office for a trifling ir-
regularity in the transfer of a small quantity of tobacco
which had. already paid the duty. The petitioners had for
many years past paid 50,0001. a-year to the revenue.
Mr. HERRIES regretted that he had not received notice
before presenting the petition of the intention of the Hon.
Alderman ; in which, case be might have been prepared to
explain the conduct of the Excise Board; or perhaps might
have pointed, out a means of redress, which the Board of
Treasury was at all times ready enough to grant.
Mr. HUME wished to.know why the Commisaioners of
Revenue Inquiry had not made their Report on the Excise ?
Mr. WALLACE said that the Commissioners had com-
pleted their inquiries into the excise system in Ireland and
Scotland, but they had not completed their inquiries into

the excise of England.
Mr. Alderman WOOD bore testimony to the great re-
spectability and commercial honour of Mr. Fish, whom be
had known for 25 years, but admitted that he would, in all
. .

probability, have obtained immediate redress by petitioning

the Treasury.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL presented a petition
from 239 Sergeants and Barristers at Law in favour of the
Catholic Claims. He, as well as those enlightened persona
of his own profession, was a firm friend of, and be-
liever in, the religion of the Established Church, and there-
fore he joined with them in wishing to reduce the number
of her enemies by taking away all pretexts of hostility.
The petition coming from so respectable and intelligent a
body, proved that the cause of Catholic Emancipation was
steadily gaining ground.
CLERICAL DUES.

Mr. HUME presented a petition from Peter Watson,
complaining of imprisonment in Durham gaol for 72 days,
in consequence of a suit instituted by the rector or vicar of
Chester-lc-street, for the recovery of 1011 d. Easter dues, the
costs and expellees having run to upwards of 1,0001. He
moved the printing of the petition, because it was a case
involving a question upon which some measure must be
founded early in the next Session.
ROBERT GOTTRLA Y.

Mr. HUME pre/ranted a petition from Robert Gourlay,
now a prisoner fur three years and a half, in consequence
Of a charge of assault upon- an Hon. Member of that aies‘se
(Mr. Brougham). The lion. Member thought it quite
time that the case of this petition should be investigated.
Mr. BII6IJOHAM said, that from the peculiar situa-
tion in which he might be supposed to stand towards this
unfortunate man, he was anxious to say a few words on
the present occasion. And he wished, first of all, to
inform his Hon. Friend (Mr. Hume) of one or two things.
ivhicb, if Robert Gourlay were of sound mind (which he
very much doubted) he ought to have been apprised of by
the petitioner himself. In the first place, if he were ca-
pable of judging at all, he ought never to .have doubted
who wasrhis accuser—the police of the Home Department,
who had taken him into custody, to be dealt with accord-
ing to law.
Mr. HUME.—" Certainly not., , Mr. Peel had denied
that aeseetion.",
Mr. BROUGHAM---" Well, then, the police acting
upon their own responsibility ; for by them • the caption
was made, after Gourley had been discharged from th%
police-office. For any person to insinuate that this poor
man was directly or indirectly detained by his intervention,
was false—utterly and entirely false—as great a falsehood
as ever was published in print, or uttered out of print."—
(Hear, hear.)—" On the contrary," continued Mr.
Brougham, " I was repeatedly sent for to my chambers at
Lincoln's-inn, to attend at the police-office to pro-
secute this man, and my answer was, that I would not go
there=that they might do as they pleased with him, but I
should not appear. Finding that he had been afterwards
arrested by the police somewhere near Charing-cross, I re-
peatedly expressed a wish to the solicitor of the Treasury
(Mr. Maule), that some means might be devised for his
liberation, and the answer was, he does not want to get
out ; he refuses the bail tendered: for his discharge.-.-.
(Hear, hear.)—Now, what was the complaint of this in-
dividual ?—why, one to which,. under similar cir Cums
stances, each of the 14,000,000 of inhabitants of England
would be liable. He was taken before a Magistrate as a
violent and refractory person, and the Magistrate had no
power to release him without sureties. This detention was
under no sew law, but one as old as the Normans and
Saxons.—(Hear.)—The poor:man's state of mind did not
rest upon mere casual conjecture. Sir George Tuthill,
and another equally eminent practitioner in the medi-
cal treatment of insanity, gentlemen who knew bow
to sound the tone of a patient, and 'strike upon the
key which would vibrate upon his real condition--
these eminent doctors had been expressly sent to exa-
mine him, and their opinion was, that he was clearly
insane.—(Hear,)--He had never threatened him (Mr.
Brougham), but he had threatened his judge, ay, and
bought a pistol for executing (as he said) that threat.--
(Hear.)—All that he had done to him was, not to strike
him, as had been falsely stated, but to lift a whip or switch
over his hat, and then to mutter, as he was afterwards in-
formed, by those who were near the poor man, such words
as these—" Is not a living man better than a dead mis-
sionary?" alluding to the adjourned debate into which be
was then about to enter, in that gluons: struggle respect.
ing the treatment of the missionary, Mr.. Smith. He
knew perfectly well that his Hon. Friend (Mr. Hume) did
not believe poor Gourlay to: be insane; and' he likewise
knew, thetthe more any body endeavoured to convince his
Hon. Friend of the error of any (Onion which' once en-
tered into his head, the more certain you were of having
that opinion more obstinately confirmed ; this, right .or
wrong, would surely be the case.-- (Laughter.).—flie
Hon. Friend was, therefore, quite consistent in his obsti-
nacy when he continued to assert that this unfortunate man
was sane. Now he (Mr. Brougham) had seen, perhaps,
500 madmen, who could talk as rationally as his Hon.
Friend upon some points—(A laugh)---and the physicians
said the same, but then their experience suggested the
mode of seeking the key of the disorder. This experience
his Hon. Friend had never had, and he fervently hoped
that lie would never have occasion to knew More about
such efflicting
cases than be now liad.—(A laugh.)—He
must again declare, that he was no party to this man's de-
' tention. As to the poor man's own case of, suffering, he
bad heard it distinctly from him : he had been badly used
in Canada—that is, he had been tried and puniihed, when
he ought not to have been tried at all, for he was clearly
under a calenture at the moment, and a fitter subject for
a lunatic hospital than a court of justice; and this ca-
lentureaggravated by the trial and subse-
quenti
mapvraisols„ozelny t.
The petitioner had always said he
had been bred a gentleman, but during hii abereatione he
pauper in Wiltshire, and driven to break states on the
road for his sustenane-i had permitted himself to fin,
so low, be a parish
as to
If he Werea'geriilernaii; wty allow
his Suptesed resenitnelWagein'st him to have sliatigiid for
more than three years, and then have endeavoured to commit
an assault (for actual assault there was none) in the pre-