Star.
London, England, 1830-05-22 00:00:00

PRIVATE BILLS.

Mr. MvstDr, and otlieimenierifr;n the Commons, brought
up several private bills.

STAMPS.
Lord HOLLAND presented a petition from the London Literary
and Scientific Institution, praying for the repeal of the tax on news.
papers. Also a petition from journeymen pintas of Liverpool, to'
the same effect.

Lord CLARE presented a petition from Limerick, against the
Irish stamp duties. Also one from the City of Limerick, to the
same effect.

SLAVICAL

The noble baronet likervisePresen---ted petitions from Stroud, in
Gloucestershire, and Wakefield, for the abolition of negro slavery.
PROTESTANT SOLDIERS.

The Earl of WINCHELSEA presented a petition from the free
barons and other inhabitants of Dover, complaining that Protestant
soldiers abroad in the army were forced against their will to assist
in the religious ceremonies of the Catholic and Greek church. The
petitioners claimed a law to prevent the practice which they as mem.
bent of the Church of England could not view sithout alarm.
The noble earl expressed a wish to know whether it was the in.
tentinn of the noble duke to give the relief sought for by the
petitioners ?
the Duke of wELLiNGTON said he would answer the noble
earl after the petition had been read.
The petition was accordingly read by the clerk at the table.
The Duke of IVELLINGTON said there was a great fallacy in
the petition. Many of the statements thercir. he knew to be ground.

The Earl of \VINCHELSEA did not enter into the merits of,
the matter ; but could not avoid saying, that any practice in the
army of forcing Protestants to assist in Roman Catholic service and
ceremonies, trust be painful to their feelings.
Lord Lo It TON preunted a petition from Castle Blaney, signed
by 1,300 persons, against the Grand Jury pesentments.

AYE lIARIIOI7I
Lord MELVILLE rose on the order for the second reading of
this bill, and declared his intention to oppose it, on the ground that
it would injure the harbour of Rye.
The Earl of F.LDON also declared his Intention to oppose it.
Lord TEYNHAM said the bill, though a private measure, would
apply to a deal of valuable property.
Lord RADNOR observed that the merits of the bill had been
discussed in the House of Commons before a committee, which de-
cided in &lOUr of the bill.

Lord HOLLAND said evidence had been taken on both sides,
and the only question was, whether the noble lord intended to move
the second reading auto bill.
Lord RADNOR said he should move the second reading.
Lord AIELVILLE declared hia intention to oppose it in the
Committee.

The Bill was then rcad a second time.
SUITS IN EQUITY BILL.
The Earl of ELDON rose, on the order for the second reading
of the Suits in Equity Bill.
The LORD CHANCELLOR rose at the same time, and said it
was not his intention to proceed to the third reading without giving
notice.

Lord ELDON said, he was glad to hear the Lord Chancellor did
not read the bill a third time, because he knew it was impossible to
carry the bill into effect without passing other bills. He had no
object in opposing the bill but what arose from due regard to the
administration of justice. He should be glad to assist in any mea-
sure conducive to the administration of justice, and was ready to
communicate with the noble and learned lord, for the purpose of
doing that which was necessary obe done. He was sure nothing
to be done with the bill before the house had decided what must be
done with other bills.

The LORD CHANCELLOR, in consequence of the made by his noble and learned friend, had not pressed for-
ward the measure. He was sure there could not be found an indi-
vidual in the county better qualified than his noble friend, to give
information on all that relates to the laws, and the due administra-
tion of justice. His noble and learned friend had said he would
communicate with him, in order to legislate upon that which was
good in the bill, and he thought he should not do justice to himself,
or promote the Interests of the public, if lie did not meet his noble
and learned friend for that purpose. He proposed the second read.
ing of the bill should be postponed to Monday, or some other day,
which might suit his noble and learned friend, in order to carry into
effect some other measure which might be considered necessary, with
a view to the due administration of equity.
The Earl of ELDON said Tuesday would be convenient.
The bill was consequently ordered to be read a second time on
Tuesday next.

EAST RETTORD BILL.
The Marquis of SALISBURY having moved the order for
further proceedings on this bill, counsel were called in, and wit.
nesses examined until the usual hour of adjournment.
HOUSE OF COMMONS—FRIDA Y.
Mr. O'CONNELL moved the third reading of the Graders
(Ireland) Steam Navigation Bill.
Mr. HUSKISSON opposed the second reading, as the bill was
calculated to give a monopoly.
Mr. O'CONNELL said there wiui one incorporated Steam Com-
pany already, and the present bill would go some way in breaking
up the monopoly.
The bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed.
General AHCHDALL presented a petition from the county of
Fermanagh, against the introduction of poor laws into Ireland ; and
a petition from a newspaper proprietor in Enniskillen, against any
increase in the stamp duty on newspapers.
Mr. SAUNDEIISON presented a petition from the county of
Cs.an, against the introduction of poor laws into Ireland.
Mr. HUSKISSON presented a petition from Liverpool, for the
repeal of the duty on houses and windows.
Mr. CUItTEIS presented a petition from Sussex, for the repeal
of the duty on malt ; and a petition from the hop.planters of bus.
sex, for arepeal of the duty on hops.
iord GEORGE BENTINCK presented a petition from Cam.
bridgeshire, against the Beer Bill.
Mr. Alderman THOMPSON presented a petition from the soap
manufacturers of Londot., for a repeal of the duty on soap, which
amounts to 100 per cent.
Mr. SYKES supported the prayer of the petition.
Colonel WALPOLE presented a petition from Chemists and
Druggists, against any increase of the stamp duty on medicine.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM presented a petition from Cumberland,
praying that Scotch and Irish paupers may be removed by bison ;
and that the expense might be borne by the parishes from which
they should be removed.
111 r. 110BHOUSE presented a petition from the Pariah of St.
James, Westminster, against the bill for the removal of Irish pau-
pers at the sole expense of the parishes from which they should be
removed. He had no objection to the saving of expenses by the use
of steam.

Mr. O'CONNELL was sorry to see so little sympathy for the
Irish poor. The project of getting rid of them by steam appeared
be in great favour. If the bill before the house should pass into a
law, it would repeal the present law, and bring into an operation an
old law, which enacted that Irish paupers should be whipped before
they were sent home.
Mr. GORDON moved for a return of the salaries and emoluments
of all persons holding offices in the Exchequer, except the judicial
offices.—Ordered.
Lord STANLEY presented a petition from the calleoprinters of
Lancaster and other places against the employment of apprentices.
Mr. HUM E moved for a return of all the officers of the Court of
Chancery, with the amount of their salaries and emoluments, and an
account of all the causes at present pending in the Court of Chan.
eery. The object of the motion was to show the present cost of the
Court of Chancery, that the public might judge whether it could be
necessary to add to that cost by the appointment of new officers.—
The motion was agreed to.
Mr. HUME presented a petition from Brechin, for a reduction of
the stamp duties.
Mr. O'CONNELL presented a petition from Youghall, againbt
the Vestry Act, and similar petitions from Skibbereen, Lower Glen.
mire, and Innialtannon, in the county of Cork, and the parish of Bt.
Paul and St. Ann, in the city of Cork.
Mr. RUMBOLD presented a petition front Great Yarmouth for
the continuance of the bounty on the herring fishery.
Mr. W. PEEL brought up a return of the number of convictions
for forgery, pursuant to an order of the house, and a return of the
number of churches and chapels ht England and Scotland.

SUPPLY:

On the motion that the sum of 21,1361. be granted to defray the
expenses of the Penitentiary, at Milbank, being put,
Mr. HUME complained of the enormous expenses of that orta-
blishment. On its original foundation, it was Weeded for the or.
eommodulon of 1,000 persons. New, after a trial of 17 years, be
wished to knew If the right hon. gentleman eonaidentioualy believed
that the benefits derived from it lad realised the public expect*.

tion, and whether he thought that the public should be charged with
such a burden ; or if a more economical plan could not be pur-
sued. Every individual on that establishment cost the public 891.
a-year. If such an expense were contemplated at its origin, the
proposal for the foundation of such an establishment would have
been scouted. The 600 inmates of this establisment cost the coun.
tty more for medical attendance than a regiment of 1,000 men. The
question was not as to the expense, but whether we were not
injuring the country by supporting such an establishment. The
inmates of this prison did more injury in contaminating the pub.
lie morals than could be compensated by the diference of the ex-
pense between sending them to the colonies, and keeping them in
this Penitentiary. Those who were a nuisance to society when kept
here, became useful members of society when sent to the colonies.
Government had no occasion to spend one shilling on convicts after
they bad landed them in New South Wales, for they could easily get
employment there. It was extravagant to expend 130,0001 a-year
in maintaining them ; no person could get a labourer or servant in
New South Whales unless by the consent of the Governor, which
was no trifling patronage. The convicts were sent there at the ex.
rue of the public, and afterwards made subjects of patronage to
the Governor. This system of management should be reformed,
and convened to the public advantage. The hon. member then
complained of the mode in which females were treated in Botany
Bay ; experience showed that females who were considered old in
this country were young there.—(laughter.) He considered it her.
manity to send females to that country, :rather than to prisons at
home. The benefit which society would derive from thence would
more than compensate for the extra expense thereby incurred. On
these grounds he objected to the continuance of this establishment.
Sir R. PEEL, felt the importance of the subject. He considered
it as connected with that of secondary punishment ; the more pub-
lic opinion was directed to such institutions, the more he was
pleased, as it gave hint an opportunity of hearing the opinions of
others on subjects on which be himself entertained some doubt. In
reply to the hon. member, he would say that, if the question was
whether a Penitentiary should be now established, he (Sir Robert)
would hesitate before he should consent to it ; but as that institu.
den had been now established, he would prefer voting for the
item, rather titan accede to the suggestions of the hon. Member.
The superintendence of this establishment was not in the Se-
cretary of State, as supposed by the hon. member, but by a gover.
nor appointed by the crown, subject to the control of the Privy
Council. He (Sir liobert) did not see why the superintendence of all
Institutions where convicts were kept should not be in one body. He
thought that some reductions might be made in the expenses of that
establishment, but he did not consider the salary of the overseer too
much, considering his respectability. There was a great advantage in
having a person of high character in that office. There is a Cont.
mittee at present occupied in inquiring into that establishment,
and no doubt they will point out all the reductions that can,
consistently with its welfare, be made in it. It was itupos.
Bible to act on the suggestion of the hon member, to transport every
offender, and if they were not transported they must return again
to society, or else be itnptisoned for life. How many young
females, who, after having been imprisoned for a thort time for
a minor offence, became worthy membets of society. The ex-
pense of the last year for the support of the convicts in the Peni.
tentiary amounted to 70,0001. whilst the produce of their labour has
been 67,5471. so that there has been but little deficiency. After
some remarks upon the number of convicts at Bemtuda who were
employed in public works, Sir R. alluded to a pamphlet which had
recently appeared from the pen of Mr. liolford. Ile regretted
that a work from the pen of that gentleman should have issued,
contahing the monstrous propositions this book did. He was, on the
one hand, found fault with by the hon. member for Abtrdeen for
sending, out of the country the female convicts, whilst, on the other
hand, Mr. Holford condemned him for not sending all the females
away. He could assure the hon. member that the office of Secretary
of State for the Horne Department was not a very enviable one. He
had, foe reasons well known to the house, and which he should not
mention further than by saying it was to put a stop to the increase
of* growing evil, sent over to New South Wales a large number of
female convicts. Bermuda was particularly suited for the pur-
poses of transportation. It was said that a convict, on arriving at New
South Woks, was enabled to support himself in a very excellent
and contlottable manner. He hoped that ere long some arrange.
ment would be made to enable the government to impose a heavy
punishment on such convicts who went over to New South Wales,
as conducted themselves improperly. He trusted an inquiry would
be set on foot into the system ; and if it was thought desirable to
transport all the convicts, he should not make the slightest objec-
tion, the mote particularly as it was considered likely to be attended
with advantage to the principles of economy. With respect to the
vote under consideration, he could assure the house that thc esta-
blishment was undergoing investigation, with a vew to a judicious
reduction.

Colonel DAVIES was anxious that an inquiry should take place
into the whole system of prison discipline.
Sir 0. MURRAY defended the system pursued with respect to
the convicts, as one attended with advantage to this country, as well
as to those colonies to which they were sent.
Mr. NI ABERLY considered the hulks far preferable to the
Penitentiary. The expense of the present system was too extrava-
gant. The country ought not to be subjected to it. The hon. gen.
damn then went into a long detail of the particulars of the expense.
He objected to the governor of a prison being paid 6001. a year, when
the pay of a general officer was but 4001. He thought this vote was
too large. He hoped the committee, when appointed, would recom.
mend its reduction.
Sir R. PEEL said the committee appointed some years ago upon
this subject, had recommended that the salary should be of the
amount which was now given. He had had some difficulty in pro.
curing an Individual possessedsof such talent and qualifications as
he considered necessary for a person filling that situation.
Mr. W. HORTOI% thought the system of emigration would be
attended with advantage.
Mr. ROSS said the expense of this prison had been much less this
year than before. _ _ _

Mr. HUME complained of the system of management. There
were 74 persons employed in the management of this establishment.
There was the Gaolers Secretary, forsooth, with a salary of 4001.
per annum. The ides of a gaoler having a secretary, was rather, he
thought, too much.
Sir T. FREEMANTLE thought the establishment of Peniten.
tiaries throughout the country might be attended with advantage.
He defended the system.
Sir T. BARING made a few observations, which war.: no: en.
tire] y distinct In the gallery.
Mr. HUME said it was requisite that they should be accurate.
Now on making the calculation, he found that the expense for each
prisoner amounted to 321. 10s.
The vote wu then agreed to.
The house then resumed, and Sir A. GRANT brought up the re.
port of the Committee.