The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-15 00:00:00

succeed in carrying his motion, thin he (Sir
Charles Napier) would support the measure• of
the Government.—(Cheers from the Opposition.) He felt
that in doing this he would be giving offence to a great number
of his constituency, who felt very strongly on this question;
but notwithstanding that, he would ever go straightforward in
the support. of every measure that he considered just, and fair,
and reasonable.—( Cheers.) When he considered the present
state of Ireland (though, at present, there was no need to ap-
prehend a war with America), yet, he would ask, was this just
the time to throw a firebrand into that country ?—( Hear.)
Since this measure had first been talked of as one that was in-
tended to be brought forward by the Government—whether
wisely or not, was not fur him now to question—he would say
that it had been looked forward to with so much anxiety, that
the rejection of it now would have the effect of placing Ireland
in a worse position than ever.—( Hear, hoar.) He did con-
ceive that this country was bound by every tie to conciliate the
Irish people. He was not the man to encourage Continental
Catholic countries to excite Catholic Ireland against Protestant
England—( Hear)—but he would ask, would it not be wise not
to give the Irish people any excuse for joining
any other country against this?—(Hear, hear.) He had heard
much from the Hon. Member for Oxford that he regret ed to
have heard ; but he would recommend that Hon. Member to
deliberate well upon the course he was pursuing, because Ire-
land, in time of peace, was not to be quieted but by kindnese
and conciliation, and if she were not conciliated, in time of
war she might become dangerous.—( Hear, hear.) He 1-nigh'
be told that it would be folly to attempt to invade Ireland ; but
those who said so might be mistaken. He had heard of the
French Government sendirg out enormous vessels to all parts
of the world; and let it not be forgotten that Ireland would at
one time have been successfully invaded under Napoleon but
for the disobedience of his admirals. He saw, by a French
paper he had received to-day, that several enormous ships had
been built in that country, intended for foreign stations; but not
having answered the purpose, they were about to be converted into
steam war vessels, each containing 2,000 men, and well cal-
culated for the service for which they were intended.—( Hear,
hear.) On those grounds, then, he would say, make Ireland
happy and contented, and he would defy the world to pro-
duce more brave and loyal subjects.—(Cheers.) If they were
treated in a contrary spirit, then it was impossible to say what
might be the result. Nothing was more likely than that a
foreign Catholic nation should be roused against England ;
and then if the Catholic people of Ireland, or a great portion of
them should join that country, see what a position England
would be in by having her best subjects severed from her by in-
justice and discontent.—(Cheers.) The proposition of the
Government was no new question. The Legislature had
already established the precedent for voting a portion of the
public money to the education of Roman Catholic priests, and,
therefore, it was only carrying out that principle to increase
the amount.--( Hear.) He was surprised to hear the Hon.
Member for Oxford argue against this, for surely, if men
were well educated, it would be much more easy for them
to see into the true lights of the Gospel, than if they were
badly educated.—( Cheers. ) This country had been trying for
the last three hundred years to make Ireland a Protestant
nation—(Cheers)—and as they had not succeeded, now let
them try to conciliate them by making them better Catholics.
—(Cheers.) He did think that this was the first step towards
an act of justice towards the Irish people, and coming from
an opposition Government, call it what they would, Conserva-
tive or Tory, he was glad to see it. It did them great credit,
and he would give it his strongest and warmest support.
Mr. S. O'BRIEN then ixise to address the House. The
question of the Endowment of the Irish Church could not ewe
be passed by ; it must now be stated in what manner the
Catholic clergy were to be paid, and from what fund. As an
isolated question, he considered the present measure anything
but a boon. The worst kind of education was that which
taught its pupils that which could do them no good. From
what had already taken place, he could only consider the present
as part of a great measure. There was no one more anxious
to act straightforward than himself. He believed that th,
Noble Lord the Member for London, if he had brought for-
ward this measure, he would have been justified in doing so,
and would not have violated any principle he had hitherto pro.
fessed ; but could that be said of the Right Hon. Baronet?—
( Hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for Newark
had stated that England and Scotland were against the mea-
sure. He might with equal truth have stated that the province
of Ulster was also against it. —(Hear. ) For his own part, he
must confers, after giving the measure the best consideration
in his power, he could not glee his consent to it. He would
ask this question, suppening the Noble Lord, the Member for
London, sitting on that side of the House, had brought for-
ward the measure, would it have received the sanction of that
House? and would those who now sit. on the Ministerial
benches, if they had supported it, at a new election have
come back with the majority they now had ?—(Cheers. )
He found in the course that the Right Hon. Member far
Newark had pursued, a warrant for the course he felt bound
to adopt; he believed that the reasons that had been urged
1 in favour of the Bill were extremely erroneous, and not at
all calcu'ated to carry it into effect. They might disguise it
as they would, but there was an allegiance in the Catholic
priests to a Foreign Tower, that would ultimately
be dangerous to this country. He did not blame the Govern-
ment for bringing forward this measure, he did not blame the
Right Hon. Baronet for its introduction, nor did he think he
was to be charged with inconsistency in bringing it forward ;
he, however, could not give his support to a measure which he
considered tended to shake confidence in public men.--( Hear.)
He believed that upon this subject there was out of doors a
general distrust of that House, which he would be the last
party to lend himself to increase. For these reasons he could
not support the motion.
At least twenty Members rose to address the House, but the
Speaker called upon
Mr. WYNNE, who said that the Hon. Member for Nor-
thampton had alluded to the names Whig and Tory, contend-
ing that the principles of each party had changed of late years.
Now he was one who had never assumed the name of Tory. If
he had done so, he should say that the course of events of the lard
forty or fifty years, during which he had been in Parliament,
had been sufficient to convince him that that party had been
mistaken.—(Cheers.) He had seen the Whigs moving the
repeal of the Septennial Act, and the Tories resisting it. He
had seen on the occasion of the Regency Bill the Tories main,
taining the right of that House to provide absolutely for the
care of the Government, and the Whigs, on the other hand,
contending for the right of the heir apparent to do so. It had
been said that this Bill. which was before the House, was in-
, consistent with the course which had hitherto been adopted by
the Tory party. Was it not consistent with the course adopted
by the Right Hon. Gentleman in that House? Was it not
consistent with the course adopted during the whole of his po-
litical life by the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir J. Graham)
. who sat near him? Was it not consistent with the course
adopted by the Noble Lord who had lately left that House
( Lord Stanley) ? With respect to himself (Mr. Wynne) he
was proud to say, that. during the forty or fifty years which he
had had a seat in Parliament, he had uniformly supported mea-
sures of this character.—(Cheers.) He remembered when
this question was first debated in that House, in
1807 or 1803, that the grant to the College of Maynooth was
supported with the view of drawing close the connexion of
this country with Ireland. At that time they knew that
' Bounaparte had tried, by every temptation, to induce the Ca-
tholic priests to go over to France. He offered to found
schools and institutions for them, but the offer was refused, and
refused most faithfully and geeerously. He should mention
that he had been much surprised at hearing, through this de-
bate, Mr. Burke quoted as an authority against such a measure
as this, which had been proposed by the present Government.
Only two sentences had been quoted, from the opinions of
Mr. Burke, in proof of Mr. Burke s opinions being against the
grant to Maynooth. Instead of these two sentences he (Mr.
Wynne) would have referred to the bulk of Mr. Burke's
writings, for there it would have been found that the institu-
tion of Maynoooth was one which had been strongly
supported by that great man —( Hear, hear.) Pic
i
( M v
r. Wynne) recollected that Lord Fitz 'll.lam, when
Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland, recommended from the throne the
endowment of Maynooth ; and his successor, Lord Camden,
dwelt, in his speech at the close of the session, on the fact of
his having laid the foundation of the College, He dwelt upon
this fact not as having laid the foundation-stone, by merely
smearing the stone over with mortar, but as showing a dispo-
sition, on the part of the Government, to support and cherish
such an institution. The same view was taken up by the party
ofnn' the country fifty years
to which the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. O'Brien) belonged ; by
he (Mr. Wynn) did
n
Mr. Pitt, by Lord Castlereagh, and by Lord Cornwallis. Mr.
Pitt had stated in that House, that the establishment of May.
nooth would be the means of uniting the two coun-
tries.t
o look ln
to what considering
was the
, ago, but what was the interest of the country at the present
time. He felt that this Bill would confer great benefit upon
. the country to which it was intended to apply. This Bill
th iisnte question,
would, to a certain extent, do away with the voluntary system,
and on that ground he supuertod it. The effect of the volun-
tary system was to make the priests the followers instead of
the leaders of the people. Where a priest was supported by
the contribution from the parish, there would be a streng
temptation for him not to run counter to the wishes of' the
, parishioners. He remembered the case of a p-iest who,
having denounced from the altar certain parties who were the
. leaders of some public disturbance, was deprived of his usual
contributions. He (Mr. Wynne) thought that his Right
Hon. Friend was entitled to great credit for the manly and
courageous manner in which he had brought forward this
measure, and he hoped, and had the fullest confidence, that
he would carry it to a successful termination. —( Cheers. )
Mr. COWPER, who was very indistinctly heard in the gal-
lery, said he was anxious to state the grounds on which he sup-
ported this meastre. He thought that all the objections which
hid been urged to it had centred in religious grounds. He
thought that any other objection which might be urged was
hardly worth debating, and he was confirmed in this view by the
speech of the Hon.:Member for Newcastle (Mr. Colquhoun). He
(Mr. Cow per) agreed both with the Hon. Baronet the Member
for Oxford arid the Hon. Member for Kent, in their opinion=
with respect to Protestantism. But, although he agreed with a
great portion of their premises, he could not come to the same
conclusion which they had done. He believed that the greatest
possible blessing hail flowed on this country from Protestantism,
and nothing wou'd grieve him more than that Protestantism
should be endangered. Protestantism gave the right of private
judgment, allowed the supremacy of individual conscience, and
toleration for those who differed from it.. Still he did not
think that the present Bill would affect the pt inciples of Pro •
testantism. The ground upon which the Hon. Baronet the Mem-
ber for Oxford resisted this Bill was that we ought not to
vote any money in support of religious opinions
. which we he believed to be erroneous.—( Hear, hear. )
• There were, indeed, Acts of Parliament to be found in the
time of Henry VIII., Edward VI., and Elizabeth, in which
. one religion was called false and another true ; and if, as was
stated in an Act of Parliament in the reign of Queen Mary,
the present measure stated that this grant to Maynooth was
given for the maintenance of teaching of truth, he would in
that case resist it to the utmost—he would rather peril his life
than vote for it.—( Hear, hear.) But as this measure
did not state that it was to suppert the truth that the
, grant was to be given, and as there was nothing in
the Bill to show that the doctrines taught at Maynooth
were erroneous, there was no reason to prevent him from
voting for it. Another argument urged against tse measure
was that it was a violation of the conscience of Protestants to
contribute money to maintain what was considered error by
, them ; but it was not altogether true that Protestants paid the
money, for Roman Catholics as well as Protenants contributed
to the consolidated fund. Besides he thought the Protestant.
of England owed some compensation to the Roman Catholics
of Ireland for the manner in which they treated their religion.
, It ought not to be forgotten in those discussions that they never
, made any selions efforts to convert the Irish Roman Catholics,
for they never preached the Gospel to them in their native
tongue. And Dr. King, Archbishop of Dublin, protested in
convocation against the conduct of parliament on this
ground. He did not think it would be much service
to Protestanism that it adopted the present mode of resisting
this grant. He thought that Protestants ought rather to con-
fine themselves to argument and' persuasion, and not interfere
with a measure which was calculated to do justice to Ire-
land.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. GREGORY did not think that the present measure
had been discussed as fully as one of such importance demanded.
He wished Hen. Gentlemen would dismiss theoretical views
from their consideration, and look at the present measure, not
in an absolute, but a relative, print of view, and to the effects
which were likely to arise from it. He thought that the pre-
sent measure, like the Dissenters' Chapels Bill and the Cheri-
table Bequests Act, would have the effect of still more weaken-
ing the Protestant establishment in that country.—( Hear,
hear.) He doubted whether the measure would have
the result which was anticipated from it, of
smoothing the angry feelings of the Roman Catholics of Ire-
land towards this country. He did. believe that, as the human
mind became more elevated by 4ducastivii, it also became less