The Sun.
London, England, 1845-03-08 00:00:00

Britich Public because 3,000 quarters of corn had been ad-
mated last wet•k at a duty 0f20,? _

vise any alteration.
ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE.
On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EX.
CHEQUER, it was ordered that the House, at its rising,
should adjourn to Monday.
PROPERTY- TAX.
On the motion of the CHANCELLOR cf the EX-
CHEQUER, the report on the Property-tax Bill was
postponed to Monday.
WAYS AND MEANS.
On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EX-
CHEQUER that the House should resolve itself into a
Committee of Ways and Means,
Mr. WILLIAMS trusted the House would give him
an oppertunity of stating the reasons for his being ab-
sent last night when the motion, of which he had given
notice, was called on. He hoped he should be able to allay
the feelings of the Noble Lord at the heed of the Woods
and Forests in doing so. He came down to the House
last night to make the motion.; and thinking that the
questions that were before the House would occupy a
greater length of time than they did, he was too late to
bring on his motion. Ile deeply regretted that cir-
cumstance from what had taken place. 110 could
assure the Noble Lord, that in making that motion
he could not for one instant imagine that in the
slightest degree it could have been conceived that he had
any intention of applying anything personal to the
Noble Lord or his noble father ; and if the Noble Lord
would compare his (Mr. Williams's) motion with the
notice he had given, he would find that there was not
the slightest difference, either in the wording or the
meaning. between that and the entry which appeared in
n statement, which
iotw.xihfga,es\s:
sNlloacaooli:d;deditbsi
utie
lnfeodr et}o,tohrwee
the Noble Lord's own books. He would read the Noble
Lersg,titniti,dr(aei'rtiselit;eitto)dwyf
The statement to which he referred was the Twenty-first
R the
the Noble Com
the manors, missioners
teas the 2and(Bot)l;erwliteircih
ditaments belonging to the Crown, whi,ch had been sold
by private contract by the Co:nraissioners of hrr Ma-
jesty's Woods and Forests. It was respecting these
that he desired to have some explanation. In the state-
ment to which he referred it appeared that certain
lands, containing 7,438 acres and 36 roods, had
been sold to his Grace the Duke of Newcastle.
for 1,049/. 15s. 9d. Now, the notice which he (Mr.
Williams) had given was for copies of all surveys and
valuations of 7,438 acres and 36 roods of land, belonging
to the Crown, adjoining
the Duke of Newcastle's
llafod estate in Cardiganshire, which had been
sold by private contract for 1,0491. 15s. 9d.
If the Noble Lord or any other man—he did not care
who—could print out the slightest shadow of a shade of
meaning ie these words, he would submit that the ob-
servations of the Noble Lord last night were justifiable.
—(Cries of " Order, order.") He begged pardon for
alluding to what had occurred on a previous night during
his absence. Ile would wish to go into those statements
of the Noble Lord ; but, it was contrary to the rules
of the House, be would nut further allude to it.
Ile made the motion on public grounds, and submitted
to the House that. when they saw such a transaction,
without any sort of ex planation—a sale of property be-
longing to the Crow:n, the fte simple of it fur 2s. lod. an
acre—they had a right to demand an explanation. lie
wanted to know what the situation of this property
was, and accordingly moved for the returns. lie now
regretted having. entrusted the motion to another lion.
Member, which he thought. a bad practice, and attended
with great inconvenience.—(Laughter, and cries of
Hear.) In 1839 he made a similar motion, and on the
same grounds—he moved for conveyances and all other
documents connected with the sale of this manor.
What was the consequence of that ? A party had pur-
chased that property of the Crown, at a low rate, in con-
sequence of various encroachments which had been
made upon the property, through the neglect and
supineness of the Commissioners of Woods and Purest,.
Poor persons had encroached upon the property, had
expended their labeur upon it, and had brought it into
cultivation. This had been done because the property had
not been properly looked after by the Crown. Tile pur-
chaser of the property had endeavoured to fore
those persons to return their holdings to him. A gen-
tleman of great public spirit took the matter up,
on behalf of these poor persons. The cause was tried
three times, and was at last moved into the Court of
Queen's Bench—the purchaser still endeavouring to
force those poor persons to return the property to him. A
representation having beets made to him (Mr.W.Williams)
on the subject, he represented it to Lord Duncannon.
With that kindnes of heart which was so charac-
teristic of the Noble Lord, he i.mmediately in-
stituted a most careful investigation into. the whole
case, compelled the purchaser to . withdraw his
claim, and the whole affair was amicably adjusted.
He thought that after such an occurrence the Nuhle
Lord could not be surprised at his asking for an expla-
nation of the nature of the transaction attending the sale
of the Herod Estate. It appared that the property had
bten sold at an excessively eared rate. He had made
no charge against the Noble Lord, either that ho
Iliad sold, or that his -father had purchased the property
improperly. All tnat he wanted was, an explanation of
the facts attending the sale, and if he had been in the
house last night—(Hear, hear, and laughter)—ho would
have moved, as an addition to the motion, that a sche-
dule should be laid before the House of the encroach-
ments. It was necessary to have such a schedule, in
order to show how the encroachments bad been purchased.
He was sorry that he had no opportunity of replying to
the Noble Lord, or he should have shown that he had no
ground either in justice or anything else for the obser•
'rations he had made. He could assure the Noble Lord,
if' the purchase had been made by any one else, if it had
been made by two of the most intimate friends he
had, he should have moved for the return precisely the
same as he had now. He had no motives whatever
except to satisfy himself more particularly as to
the means that had be. n taken to ascertain the value of
the estate. The sales of Crown property by private
contract were a fair subject (if inquiry ; fte thought all
sales of Crown property ought to be public and not pri-
vate. The Crown received a sum of 385,000/. annually
in return for these lands, and the Crown estates cer-
tainly produced a large sum ; but not more than 145,0001.
of it went to the 'public Treasury ? Ile contended
the department over which the Noble Lord presided re-
quired looking after as much as any other department
of the Government. At present, most of the revenue de-
rived fronsCrown lands was spent for all sorts of purposes.
With regard to the charge brought against him by the
Noble Lord, he had only to say that he would never
shrink from the performance of a public duty, howevee
disagreeable that might be—(Cries of " Oh, oh," from
the Ministerial benches)—and he
.repeated his regret
that he was not in the House
ivlast ni
not igh.t to bring forward
the motion of which he had gen ce.
The Earl of LINCOLN said that the Hon. Member
for Coventry had deemed it necessary to enter it.to a

long- cerplanatior., for the purpose, as it appeared to him,
of justifying the motion of which he had given ne-
tb.e. Ile (Lord Lincoln) begged distinctly to repeat
what he had stated on the last night, that this motion
lA'a a gross imputatli n on lainiFeF, as far as his rublic
character was concerned. Ile did not blame the lion.
Gentleman for bringing forward this übject. If he sus-
pected a public servant, he wa: quite right in bringing it
forward. W hat he (Lord Lincoln) did say, and \llia;
he conceived he hail a right to ray, was, that when the
lion. Member had placed the notice on the beolts of
the llouse—a notice, the plain intent and meaning of
which was, to charge corruption to a public
servant in the discharge of his official cluies—
when such notice had once appeared uron the hooks of
the Ii ores it s-as an injustice to him (Lord Lincoln)
and towards the public. who were as much interested
in the character of their servant, as
himself was—(fiear, hear)—m-t to bring that
subject forward at the very earliest oppertunity, in
order to give that public servant an opportunity of clear
ing his character. The lion, Member for Coventry had
not yet even acknowledged the injustice of the imputa-
tion in the motion which he brought forward. Ile (Lord
Lineoln):agreed with the lion. Member that any Hose
Member giving. notice of a motion should bring it for-
ward himself. But why, lie asked, (I'd the lion. Menibtr
for Coventry riot act on his own principles, and bring
this inetion fore and himself ? Why did he leave it to
the Hon. Member for Montrose to do so in his abseeee ?
That was one cause of complaint lie had against the
Hon. Member fur Coventry. Another was, that lie had
put a notice en the hooks which bore on the face of it ie
most unfair representation of the facts. The Hen
Gentleman, with a perversion of vision, had read the
motion on the books, and then the extract from the
report of the Commissioners of Woods and Forests, in a
manner which was intended to convey to the House a
most unfuir representation of the case, and he would not
be wrong in supposing. with an evident intention to mis-
lead the House of Commons, and to lead the public to a
different interpretation than the facts of the case v,Ar-
ranted. What was the extract which the Hon. Gentle
man had quoted ? It would be found in the 29th page
of the report issued by the Commi,sioners of Woods
and Forests in August last—" To sale of certain parts
or portions of land adjoining to the Hafed estate."
What was the motion of the lion. Member ? It was
for a return of all surveys and valuations of 7,438 acres
of land sold for 1,0491. 15s. 9d. The Hon. Member had
shown by his statement—though he was absent from the
House last night, that he had read his (Lord Lin-
coln's) observations upon this subject, in that morning's
papers, and therefore he had made himself master
of them, and of the explanation he (Lord Lincoln) had
given of this affair; and yet the lion. Gentleman now
professed to say that that which he had just read was a
full and fair representation of the transaction through-
out, lie (Lord Lincoln) would not now enter upon any
further explanation on this subject.—(Hear, hear.) lie
conceived that he entered upon it at sufficient length
last night ; and he said then, and he would say now,
that he was ready to produce, and he would produce, in
spite of the remonstrances of the House to the contrary,
all the documents connected with the transaction, cal-
culated to give the fullest explanation, except, perhaps,
a mass of letter's which contained a quantity of matter
irrelevant to the subject, and which it would be an enor-
mous and almost useless labour to wade through.—
(Hear.) He said last night, and he would say now
again, that, even in the absence of these documents, not
the slightest doubt remained upon the mind of any other
Hon. Member of the House ; but if a suspicion did dwell
upon the mind of the Hon. Member opposite, he (Lord
Lincoln) hoped, when all the documents were before the
House—and indeed he thought he was bound to do so
—to bring forward a substantive proposition upon it—
(Hear, hear)—and if he did not, he (Lord Lincoln) would
then feel himself in a position to impute to the Hon.
Member that which would be anything but creditable to
Itirti.—(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman had said that
if he were in the house last night, the result of the de-
bate en this subject would have been very different from
what it was.—(clear, hear.) Now he (Lord Lincoln)
would insist upon the production and the reading of all
the documents lie had alluded to ; arid when they had
been read he did think that the Hon. Member would be
bound, in justice to the public, in justice to that House,
and in justice to the lion. Member's fair fame, to place
upon the books of th it House a motto t founded upon
this investienion.—(L ud cheers.)
Mr. WILLIAMS rose amid loud cries of " Order, order,"
and said he merely wished to say a weird or two in explana-
tion. Be begged to remind the Noble Lord opposite that his
notice was merely to the effect that he would move for copies
of the surveyor's valuation of the estate purchased by the Duke
of Newt astle, and described in the report of her Majesty's
Commissioners of Woods and Forests. 'When be had framed
hi' notice upon the subject, he showed it to an Hon. Member
opposite, who approved of it ; and he then showed it to the
Hon. Member for Montrose, and it was at his suggestion that
he had altered it to its present form. With regard to the
other things which the Noble Lord had thrown out—(Cries of
" Spoke, spoke," amidst which the Hon. Member sat down).
Mr. HUME said, as he had been alluded to, he begged to
assure his Hon. Friend that he was very sorry that he was not
there on the previous evening.—( Hear, hear.) He had
meant to act kindly to the Hon. Gentleman and the Noble
Lord.—( Hear, hear.) He must confess that when his Hen.
Friend consulted hint, he said that the entry was very sus-
picious, but he advised him to get the papers first, and not
commit himself before he was acquainted with the facts.
He promised his Hon. Friend, not only that he would assist
him in getting the papers, but if they were not satisfactory, in
obtaining " further inquiry." That was the usual anti proper
course for an Hon. Member to pursue under such eireum-
stanees.—(Hear, hear.) He could not agree with the Noble
Lord as to the course which .an lion. Member was bound to
pursue, of er bringing forward a subject of this nature ; he
thought that if he were satisfied that was a sufficient reason
for withdrawing.—( Hear, hear, and laughter.) He must now
confess that, as long as he had been in Parliament, he had never
heard an explanation more satisfactory, and more exculpatory
than that of the Noble Lord.—( Hear, hear, and cheers.) He
would not be a party to suspending for one moment the duty
of freeing the Noble Lord from suspicion.
Mr. MACKINNON wished to say a few words in sxpla-
nati .n. About a year and a half ago, he was treating for the
purchase of this estate, and he was fully aware of the claims
which the Government might have had upon it. With regard
to what had been said by the lion. Gentleman, he begged to
pay, that if the estate was sold by auction that it would not
bring one-twentieth of what it brought by private contract,
because it would be of no value to any other person except the
Duke of Newcastle.
The subject then dropped.
CUSTOMS' DUTIES.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER gave notice
that if the debate on the property and income-tax was concluded
in sufficient time on Monday evening, he would propose to go
into a Committee on the Customs' Duties on that night, for the
purpose of giving effect to that resolution which repeals the ex-
port duties.
JUSTICES OF THE PEACE BILL.
In answer to a question by Captain PECHELL,
Sir J. GRAHAM said that if the Justice of the Peace Bill
was read a second time that evening, he did not intend going
nto Committee on it till after Easter.
RAILWAY RESOLUTIONS.
In answer to a question by an Hest. MEMBER,
Mr. GREENE said that some further resolutions, with re-
gard to railways, would be ready in a few days.
Mr. MILES said that he had a motion for Monday night on
the question of the Speaker leaving the chair for the purpose
of going into Committee on the property-tax, upon which he
was afraid he must occupy some of the time of the House.
He hoped the Right lion. Gentleman, the Chancellor of the
Exchequer, did not intend by his notice to interfere with that
debate.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it was
not his intention to interfere at all with the motion of his
Hon. Friend ; but it was very important that the question of
the repeal of the export duties should be discussed. His lion.
Friend would have another opportunity of making his motion.
Mr. M. GIBSON said that it would not take ten
minutes to repeal the duty on cotton. Why not go on with
it now ?---( Laughter. )
Sir R. PEEL said that the Han. Member for Liskeard had
a very important motion on the subject of the property and
income-tax, and till that was disposed of he could not assent to
the remission of any taxes.—( Laughter.) lie hoped they
would he enabled to proceed with the reduction of the Customs
on Wednesday.
WAYS A'ND MEANS.—SUGAR DITTIES.
On the question that the SPEAKER do leave the chair, n
order that the House should resolve itself into a Committee of
Ways and Means,
Mr. COBDEN rose to address the House. As they were
going to vote a certain amount of protection to the colonial
proprietors, there could be no objection, he thought, to that
amount being known as well as it could. The Chancellor of
the Exchequer calculated that they would receive 230,000
tons of colonial sugar. On that he granted ten guineas a ton
protection ; he then calculated on receiving 20,000 of foreign
sugar. Now, he ( Mr. Cobden) thought it was evident that
before they received that amount of sugar they would have
paid the ten guineas a ton on colonial sugar.—( Hear, hear.)
Then, the amount they were able to vote in the way of protec-
tion was 2,415,0001., in fact, the tax they were about to vote
would be 3,900,000/., and the tax they voted to colonial
proprietors would be about 2,500,0001. That was an amount
which would enable the Right Hon. Gentleman to relinquish
the window and soap duties, and would leave him half a mil-
lion of surplus besides. lie hoped, if there was any fallacy
in what he had stated, that it would not go uncontradicted.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could net at
all acquiesce in the reasoning of the Hon. Gentlemen, or there.
sults he had arrived at with respect to the protection of colo-
nial sugar, in contradistinction to foreign.
Lord HOWICK, whose first sentence was inaudible, said the
point ought to be cleared up. It was one of extreme import-
ance. It was a clear and plain proposition, and capable of a
categorical answer—aye or no. He understood the point put
by the lion. Member for Stockport to be this the Righ t Hon.
Gentleman proposed a protecting duty of ten guineas a ton on
foreign free sugar ; therefore, if it were not for this protecting
dirty, the growers of this sugar could afford to sell it ten
guineas a ton cheaper than they actually will sell it ander
the proposed arrangement. That was the point,
and if it was incorrectly stated, let the Right
Hon. Gentleman point out where the error was. If
foreign free sugar could be sold ten guineas a ton
cheaper, he wanted to know how it was, he repeated, if that
duty were removed, why it would not answer the grower to
sell it ten guineas a ton cheaper ? He saw no reason why it
should not be so. 'I he only difference would be that the
Treasury would receive ten guineas a ton less. The point put
by the Hon. Member for Stockport was, that if foreign sugar
can he offered ten guieneas a ton cheaper than colonial sugar,
would not colonial sugar, if obliged to come into the market
on equal terms with foreign sugar, be reduced in price ten
guineas a ton ?—( Hear. ) And in truth was it not to prevent
the fall of colonial sugar that this protecting duty was imposed?
He confessed, that after all the debating on the subject, he was
at a loss to understand what protecting duties were, if it were
not for this purpose. But if they did raise the price ten
guineas a ton by this arrangement, and if the quantity men-
tioned by, the Hon. Member for Stockport would come into
the market, he wished to know where was the error of the
lion. Gentleman in saying that they were going to
impo3e a tax on the consumer of 2,100,0000
Sir R. PEEL said, in the course of last week 3,000 quarters
of foreign corn had been brought into our markets at a duty of
20s. the quarter. The consumption of wheat was esti-
mated at not less than twenty millions of quarters, arid, with
the exception of one million of quarters, the whole of the re-
maining nineteen millions was derived from domestic supply.
Did the Noble Lord contend that, because 3,000 quarters of
wheat were brought in and paid a duty of 20s. a quarter, that
the remaining 19 millions was raised so much in price above
its natural cost. How did the Noble Lord reconcile that with
the statement made by him the other night on this subject? An
attempt had been made to show that, in Jersey and Guernsey,
where the trade in corn was free, the price of wheat was not
lower than it was in this country. Now did the Noble Lord
contend that a tax of 19,000,0001. had been imposed upon the

Mr. HUM was surprised at hearing the statement of the
Right Hen. Baronet. The Right Hon. Baronet was positively
misstating the arguments of his friends —( Hear, hear. ) His
fr lends had always contended that the object of the corn-laws
was to keep up the price of corn.—( Cries of " No. no," from the
ALnisterial benches, answered by cheers from the Oppiisition. )
"[he Right lion. Baronet had not answered the direct ques-
tion of his Hon. Friend the Member for Stockport.--(Hear.)
His Hon. Friend had atated the exact amount and the exact

quantity, and although it was possible that the actual amount
did not all go into the pckets of the West Indians—(Cheers
from the Ministeriil benches)—yet there could be no ques-
tion but that a proportion, and a very large proportion, of
that amount did find its way into their pockets.—(Cheers.)
The question was, what was that amount? That depended en-
tirely upon the quantity. That was the question which the
Chancellor of the Exchequer had been called upon to answer,
end to that question no answer had been given. Why, let
them take eyed the case of corn. There could be no doubt

but that the imposition of the duty tended to raise the price
of corn throughout the country. They might tell him that a
ri,e of one in twenty would not produce any perceptible
effect. It might not, but a rise of one in seven or of one in
five would produ: e a very great effect, and that would be suf-
ficient to show how fallacious was the argument of the Right
lion. Baronet.—(lea ) The Right lion. Baronet had, in
fact, shirked the question.—( Cheers. ) Why did he go to
corn ?—( Hear, hear.) Why did he not keep to sugar ?
( Ilear. ) He haul gone to corn, because he thought it would
attract more attention. —( Hear.) Sugar was the subject of
discussion at the present moment snd let them keep to sugar.
—( Hear, hear.) Before he sat down he would offer a little
advice to those Hon Gentlemen opposite who were pressing
the Right lion. Baronet on this subject. He would advise
lion. Members who supported the West India interest not to
drive their pretensior.e too far, or they would make it appear
evident that that relief would not be extended to the country
from the reduction of the sugar duty which the country was
entitled to expect.—( Hear, hear.) The time was fast ap-
proaching when any protection would be entirely out of the
question. lie was anxious to see the West Indians amply
supplied with labour, and to see them prospering, but if they
persist in pursuing the present course, the country would
soon consider that they were not worthy of that consideration
which had hitherto been extended to them. Hew ished to
see questions denuded of all that intricacy and of all that fallacy
which had been had recourse to, simply to hide the fact that
this protection imposed a heavy tax upon the country. lie
wished the Chancellor of the Exchequer would consider the
question, argue it fairly, and show what would be the real effect
of imposing this additional duty on foreign sugar.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said that the argument which had
been used by the Right Hon. Gentleman the First Lord
of the Treasury, in reply to the question of his Hon. Friend
the Member for Stockport anal to the observations of his
Noble F 1 iend the Member for Sunderland, did appear to him
one of the most extraordinary evasions which he had ever
heard. The plan of the Government supposed a regular trade
in sugar to this country, to the amount next year of 20,000
tons of foreign sugar. His Hon. Friend had contended that
the price paid for colonial sugar would be governed by the p: ice
of the foreign sugar. Entirely evading that argument, the
Right Hon. Baronet, with what in so able a debater he must
believe could only be a desperate plunge of despair, said that
he was bringing forward a precisely analogous case in the cir-
cumstances of the corn trade. What were the circumstances
of that trade as described by the Right Hon. Baronet himself?
That there was a quantity of 3,000 quarters of corn imported
into this country, to meet 20,000,000 quarters of home-grown,
and that this 3,000 quarters of foreign corn bad the
same effect on the 20,000,000 of house-grown, as
the 20,000 tons of foreign sugar would have on
the 230,000 tons of colonial sugar. But there was this
difference in the cases—the Right Hon. Baronet supposed,
when he spoke of those 3,000 quarters of foreign corn, that
its importation had bees a favourable speculation to the
trader, but he believed the Right Hon. Baronet would find
that this was contrary to the facts of the ease. Had it been
under the operation of the sliding scale—( Hear, hear)—a
winning speculation ?—( Hear, hear.) Had the transaction
been of a nature to encourage the importation of corn in
future? He was astonished the Right Hen. Baronet should
have ventured to use such an argument. What was the state
of the corn trade at the present moment? A large quantity
of foreign corn, after having been kept in warehouses for a
considerable time, at a loss to the importers, became at last so
damaged that it was impossible it could afford to pay duty, and
rather than pay it it was thrown into the river.—( Hear,
bear.) By the operation of the sliding scale the trade in corn
was rendered a destructive one—( Hear, hear)—and the Right
Hon. Gentleman gravely compared it to the sugar trade, which
he intended to introduce into this country—he endeavoured to
establish a perfect analogy between circumstances entirely dissi-
milar. He hoped that, however the scheme of corn duties might
have pleased the Right lion. Gentleman, the infliction of a curse
in sugar duties, on a similar principle, would be spared to the
country. Ilis (Mr. Labouchere's) purpose in rising was to
protest against the argument brought forward by the Right
Hon. Baronet, that a principle founded on circumstances ap-
plicable to corn would afford an argument which would equally
apply to sugar. There never was a more complete failure at
an answer than in that attempted by the Right Hots. Gentle-
man.—( Hear, hear.) Because 3,000 quarters of foreign corn
had, forsooth, been introduced in one week—and it would be
absurd to say that that could have any effect on the price of the
corn consumed in the present season—it was attempted to
show that there was some analogy between that case and the
case of foreign and colonial sugar, as affected by the Bill in-
troduced by her Majesty's Government.
Mr. GLADSTONE said there were two questions before
the House, and -there was considerable complaint on the on
side and on the other, because they had not been answered.
A question had been put by an Hon. Gentleman on the other
side, which lie had no hesitation in saying did not originate in
a desire of gaining information. —( Hear, hear. ) His Right
Hon. Friend., the Hon. Baronet (Sir Robert Peel), had ob-
served to the lion. Gentleman, that two could play at that
game, and had excited considerable irritation by his mode of
retort.—( Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Gladstone) believed that a
fair answer was never given to such a question as that of the
Hon. Member for Stockport. One Right Hon. Gentleman
opposite said it was not fair to take the small quantity of corn
which came in within a week, and to argue from that as if it
formed an appreciable portion of the trade. lie did not know
that. lie differed from him upon that point ; but he would give
a slight modification of his Bight Hon. Friend's question. In
1843, there were introduced one million, or one million two
hundred quarters (that, at least, was not an imperceptible
quantity ), and it paid about Iss. a quarter. In 1844, there
came in about eight or nine hundred thousand quarters, which
paid about 17s. a quarter. He asked Hon. Members
whether, looking at the average of wheat in 1843
and in 1844, they would hold that the pr ice of
wheat was not raised in 1843 by 15s. a quarter, and in 1844
by 175., over what it would have been without a corn-
law ? The Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr Labouchere) said
that upon the 3,000 quarters money was lost. But did the
1,000,000 quarters introduced in 1843 involve a loss of money ?
If so, why were another million imported? The Right lion.
Gentleman had said, that a quantity of corn had been thrown
into the river in consequence of the prejudicial operation of
those protective duties at one time. Why, of course, if the
Right Hon. Gentleman referred to a trader in desperate cir-
cumstances for arguments of this sort, he could no doubt find
many of them. The Hon. Member had referred to a paper of
six or seven years old, and it was from that he had read the
occurrence of a quantity of corn having been thrown into the
river; but he (tlr. Gladstone) would ask, how could a state
of things of a date so far back be made analogous to those of
the present?—( Hear, hear). On the whole, he ( Mr. Glad-
stone) did think that the proposition of his Hon. Friend near
him was founded on principles consistent with justice, and
sound truth and equity.—( Cheers.) The Hon. Member for
Stockport had said that it was a plain question of arithmetic,
and he argued that if the duty, say upon 200,000 tons of sugar,
was to be 10s. 6d. the cwt., that the price of the sugar to the
dealer would be the same per cwt. in addition. But he ( Mr.
Gladstone) would ask, how did the lion. Member mean to
make the sugar duties applicable to the principle on which the
duties on corn were regulated ?—( Hear, hear.) If the Hen.
Member meant to argue that, because 10s. od. was the duty
on sugar, 10s. 6d. should be the addition to the price, let him
do so; but he (Mr. Gladstone) differed from him, and con-
tended that the fact was not so, and objected that such should
be assumed as the fact. Amongst the many points which
might be introduced into this subject, in order that it might be
submitted to a full and fair discussion, was this one :—Suppose
that British sugar was not worth by twn.thirds what foreign
sugar was, and that the duty on British sugar was 10..
per cwt., and that on foreign was Os., surely the 235. duty on
the more valuable article was only a fair, proportionate ad
valorem duty.—( Hear, hear. ) As to the Hon. Gentleman
putting this in the form of a question, and endeavouring to get
an answer, whether it came to one million or two millions and
a half, though as a mere stratagem in debate, there might be no
objection to such a course. But as a question for information
—though he would not say it was deserving of no attention—
yet it was desirable that an answer such as that given by his
Right lion. Friend should be given to it, who put a question to
the Hon. Gentleman, which he hoped some Hon. Gentleman
on the other side of the House would be disposed to answer
more satisfactorily.—( Laughter. )
Mr. ROEBUCK said that the Right Hon. Gentleman
(Mr. Gladstone) had said that the Hon. Member for Stock-
port had put a foolish question, which was answered by another
foolish question of the Right Hon. Baronet.—( Hear, hear. )
But the Hon. Member for Stockport put a very pertinent
question, in his opinion, and it was answered with exceeding
dexterity by the Right lion. Baronet, for he answered one part
but not the whole. The question of the Hon. Member for
Stockport was a plain, clear, definite, and brief question, un-
derstandable by anybody. Nothing of that character could
be applied to the answer of the Right lion. Gentleman.—
( Hear, hear.) The question was, "if a certain amount of
duty be placed on foreign sugar as a means of protection, what
is the loss to the consumer by that protection ?" That was the
real meaning of the question. 'I he Hon. Member said that
the loss to the community must be measured by the gain to the
planters. But that was not altogether the case, for the loss
was derived in part from the quantity of labour and capital
thrown away, and therefore the protective duty would only
give a partial protection. The question of the Hon. Member
for Stockport was accurate enough, but when it was asked
whether the importation of 200,000 quarters of corn would in-
crease the price of corn, he did not think that was an accurate
question, because the quantity was so small, but if it
were large, it would be an accurate question.
And, therefore, the question :put by the Hon. Member for
Stockport was a question put for information sake alone. !What
was the protection of ten shillings put on for ? On this sub-
ject he held a letter in his hand, a letter written by a Gentle-
man named Gladstone—( Hear, hear)—in the Times of that
day, in which he said they must protect the colonists—that
was, in effect, saying they were to have worse sugar at a higher
price. It was supposed they derived great benefit from the
%Vest and East India colonies. He denied that altogether.
The value of the West India colonies was to be measured by
the exact amount of our loss. They paid them :a large tax in
the shape of duty on sugar, and it had not been shown why this
country should pay them more than 2,000,0001. of money every
year in the shape of protection duty.
Sir GEORGE CLERK said, the Hon. and Learned
Member for Bath advanced an argument which no other Hon.
Member would, he believed, be inclined to support him in—
that our West India colonies were rather a loss than an advan-
tage to us. He would not, therefore, apply himself to this
question, but rather reply to the observations of the lion.
Member for Taunton who admitted that some protection
ought to be extended towards our colonies, and was not satisfied
that they should enter into unlimited competition with foreign
countries. The Hon. Member for Stockport had put a specific
question, and had drawn an inference which the premises did
not justify. He presumed that because there was a differential
duty of ten guineas a ton on foreign free sugar, and the amount
imported, 230,000 tons, that the people of this country were
thereby taxed to the amount of 2,300,000/. Now, that argu-
ment was altogether irrespective of the quantity supplied by
the colonies, and the greater the colonial supply the greater the
amount of taxation on the people of this country.—(No, no. )
Ile admitted that if the supply from the West Indies was in-
considerable, and that we were obliged to take our
sugar front foreign countries, the protective duty would be
very much felt. But at the present moment, when the sup-
ply imported from our foreign possessions could be (greater
than ever was consumed in a single year by the people oft its
country, how could they be subjected to a tax of 200,00 d
duties,
300,0001. ? If they were at once to remit all protectiveee i
,thuenvlrnibtnyedaisaitnealclornesde,qvu,t,iionic,
the growers would, in moat instances, give
consequences
sn
traheig priceht be
o favourable
sug sugar, bt:, :ouulcdatnt..:
afterwards highly injurious even to the Fonium, rhgeirclpiantf:
ticns, and its culture would be to a great extentTal discontinued.