The Sun.
London, England, 1842-07-14 00:00:00

CATHEDRALS OF ENGLANb.

The liberal conduct of Sir Robert Stopford, the
Governor of Greenwich Hospital, in throwing open the
Painted Hall and Chapel to the public, free of charo,
for two days in the week, Mondays and Fridays, is
highly to be approved- of; and we turn to the Deans.
and Chapters, and tell them to go and do likewise with
their Cathedrals, which are fine buildings of the
gothic and ancient architecture, and such as no other
country can boast of.
On the Continent the cathedrals are open to the
public the greater part of every day free, and' those
persons who have visited and observed the conduct of
the people, must be ccnvinced of the great advantage
those facilities of admission give to the public in those
countries. The effects on the people, as a kind of

education, are perceptible in the estimation and atten-
tion paid by them to the monuments of art in all the
collections in those countries. Until of late years it
was supposed, and boldly staled, that Englishmen
were not to be admitted to collections of paintings,
or to any public buildings or parks, as foreigners are
admitted on the Continent ; but the experiment we
have seen made through the persevering exertions of
a few gentlemen, at the British Museum, National
Gallery, Hampton Park, East India Museum, and
other places, proves most satisfactorily, that English-
men can behave as well as any countrymen,-when ad-
mitted to those valuable collections.

By the evidence of Col. Rowan, before the Select
Committee, the conduct of the working classes has
been of late years much improved, and he attributes
the removal of seclusion, and the free admission of the
people to the public edifices and monuments, as hav-
ing greatly contributed to that favourable result.
. We may surely then turn to the cathedrals of this
country, as public edifices, which might contribute
greatly to gratify the curiosity of millions, and tend
to elevate the taste and to improve the opinions of
the people, if they were admitted freely to them at
stated hours daily.

We saw by Lord John Russell's Letter to the,
Dean and Chapter of Westminster, that he desired to
see free access granted to the cathedrals on week
days, and it is to be regretted that the Dean objected
thereto.
We therefore give an extract of the Report of the
Select Committee of the House of Commons on that
subject:—
Your Committee do rot apprehend that any
danger to the monuments in Westminster Abbey and
St. Paul's would result from giving to the public,
under proper regulations, the same freedom of admis-
sion to those cathedrals which is allowed in the case
of the exhibitions referred to.

That your Committee strongly deprecate any
course which could create an impression that
churches were at any time to be considered merely in
the light of places for the exhibition of works of art.
But it is their opinion, that, as by increased facilities of
admission ,to the inspection of mere works of art,
civilisation has been encourac,ed and public taste
improved, so a more free admission to religious
edifices, under proper regulation, may be made con-
ducive not merely to the gratification of curiosity and
the acquirement of historical knowledge, but to the
growth and. progress of religious impressions, by
leading the mind of the spectator from the contem-
plation of the building to a consideration of the views
with which, and the purposes for which, it was origi-
nally erected and is still maintained.
Your Committee beg to refer to the evidence of
John Britton, the well-known author of "British
Cathedrals," who, for 45 years, has devoted his talents
to the study of our national edifices and monuments,_
as showing the improvement of the people, through
the increased opportunities afforded them of studying
those subjects, and the confidence which of late years
has been placed in their discretion ; his long and ex-
tensive experience in these matters has led him to
the following conclusions :
2003.. What is. the result of your observations upon
the conduct of the public generally in public places
since you were in the habit of visiting them P.—Con-
siderably improved, immensely improved; you would
scarcely' suppose it ; supposing I had been from my
own country, at a distant part of the world for the
last 50 years, I should not have supposed it the same
nation or class of 'people.
2139. What effects are produced on the minds of
the poorer classes, in your opinion, from the experi-
ence' that you have had in meeting them in those
(ecclesiastical) edifices :P-1 have noticed, upon many
occasions, a great number and variety of persons of
the middling and lower classes visiting cathedrals,
examining different parts of them; examining the
Monuments, passing through with great order and
decorum, and apparently going away highly satisfied
and delighted ; and the only drawback that I have
seen or known upon such occasions has been the con-
duct and rather heavy charges demanded by the
vergers and their servants.

"Your Committee also refer to the evidence of Mr.
Allan Cunningham, the author of the ' Lives of Bri-
tish Artists,' and other works of general interest, on
the importance of public exhibitions, and the beneficial
effects on the minds and manners of the working
classes.

1845. You think that frequent access to sculpture
and other works of art is the best means of mak-
ing the public careful of them ?-:-.Decidedly ; I
think that question is solved by the National Gallery
being opened; you see a great number of poor mecha-
nics there, sitting wondering and marvelling over those
fine works, and having no other feeling but that of
pleasure or astonishment ; they have no notion of de-
stroying them ; I was,very much delighted to see them.
1847. Then it is your opinion that facility should
be afforded by every possible means to collections of
sculpture and painting ? Unquestionably, under
proper protection.

1849: What class of people do you say you have
seen there ?—Men who are usually called "mob ;"
but they cease to become mob when they get a taste.
1850. You think that now they are more attentive ?
—Decidedly. I saw no attempt to hurt anything. I
saw a great deal of wonder and pleasure; there were
what appeared to me to be shoemakers, masons, and
joiners.

1850. Do you consider that there would be any
danger to the monuments in Westminster Abbey, it
the public were admitted two or three hours a day,
there being proper attendants in waiting to observe
and look after their conduct ?—I think, under proper
restrictions and regulations, with a sensible, and able,
and active man to take care of them, a man of sense.
and taste, that there would be no danger.
The evidence of Mr. Edward IVedlake Brayley, the
historian of Westminster Abbey, is also deserving of
attentive consideration. He expresses' a strong
opinion, that 'Westminster Abbey and other religious
edifices, mild the monuments of national interest
which they contain, ought to be freely seen by all
classes, with as little impediment and restriction as
their safety requires ; and states, in the following an-
swers, what the advantages to the public would be.
2184. Is it your opinion that the Cathedrals ought
to be freely seen by alI classes, with as little impedi-
ment and restriction as their safety requires ?—Cer-
tainly, it is my opinion that it would be useful in
many points.
2185. Will you state to the Committee the ad-
vantages that occur to you as likely to arise from
their being fairly seen ?—That of causing an im-
proved taste for art, genera*, ih the public ; also of
conveying historical information to those who, from
the mere sight of them might be induced to make
inquiry as to their origin and intention.

Several of the witnesses are of opinion that free
admission, under proper regulations, tends to diminish
'the danger of injury to monuments and collections;
arid Mr. Brayley s opinion is clear on that point.
2227. In, your visits to the Abbey, have yen ob-
served how far opportunities have heeu afforded
to individuals, admitted as they have been ' upon
the payment of money, • and to parties moving
about with a guide, if there was any inclination to
pilfer any parts of the tombs ?—Certainly, there have
been considerable opportunities ; because parties •of
ten or twelve persons
.moving from one chapel to
another, cannot be overlooked by one, supposing they
were disposed to pilfer'; and even the interference of
the monuments would conceal them from sight.
2228. Do you think that if a greater number were
admitted to see those monuments, there would be
better protection by their being overlooked one by
another ?—I should think it would be so; still I have
not seen any disposition in any part of the public to
cause destruction to any part of the monuments.
Your Committee are of opinion, that increased at-
tention should be paid to the preservation of the Kele-
' siastical edifices, and of the royal and other monu-
ments contained therein ; and they entertain a hope
that arrangements may' be made by the Cathedral
authorities to allow the larger portions of Westniin-
ster Abbey and St. Paul's, and other Cathedrals
throughout the country, to be open freely to the pub;.
lie daily, and especially on Sundays, reconciling such
free admission with the due and undisturbed per-
formance of religious services, though it may be re-
quired to continue a reduced fee, or other sufficient
restriction, in regard to the chapels, and smaller or
more intricate portions of those edifices.
Your Committee think it right to add, that if the
greater freedom of admission to those churches should
lead, as it probably must, to an increase of the num-
ber of officers employed in their superintendence, the
additional expense ought to be defrayed from other
funds than those belonging to the Cathedrals.
We hope' to see Catalogues or Guides prepared for
all the Cathedrals at the low prices at which the Ca-
alogues for the National Gallery are sold.

TRIAL FOR PIRACY IN FRANCE,
The Maritime Tribunal of Brest has been engaged
in the trial of a case of piracy and violation of the
, existing treaties between France and Spain, against a
continuation of the slave-trade. The hearing com-
menced on the 28th ult., and lasted till the 3d inst.
inclusive. The whole of the important and interest-
ing circumstances, as exposed by the proceedings, are
comprised in the following statement :—A Mexican
brig of war; called the Podia, taken by Admiral
lßaudin's• fleet in 1838, became by successive sales and
transfers the property of a Spaniard named Vivo, re-
sident at the Havannah. Vivo, who had been pre-
viously engaged in the slave-trade in a subordinate
capacity, had her fitted out as a slave-ship, and en-
gaged a crew of 45 men. As this traffic was pro-
hibited, by the laws of Spain, he, by' fraudulent
representations, furnished himself with Portu-
guese papers, and sailed on 25th December, 1830,
from the Havannah; direct for the coast of Mozam-
bique. Being, thus apparently under the Por-
tuguese flag, he had not any visits to fear, except
from the English cruisers, and from them he hoped
to escape through the superior sailing of his vessel.
When he left the Havannah he had no merchandise

on board, but had provided himself with an ample
sum of money in specie. On his arrival at the Mo-
zambique, the slave-trade had been prohibited by
Portugal, and the Governor, in obedience to orders
he had received from his 01 overnmeirt, fined Vivo
2,500 piastres for contravention of the treaty that had
been entered into, and, having seized and taken away
from his ship all that could be used in the illicit traffic,
he commanded Vivo to return to the Havannah,
giving him papers expressly for this destination, and
appointed a Portuguese subject, Captain Costa
Vianna, to take the chief command of the ship. He,
at the same time, embarked in her seventeen men who
had lost their ship, as passengers for the Havannah.
Vivo, notwithstanding the new captain placed over
him on leaving the coast of Mosambicine, retained
the full command of The vessel, and by his represen-
tations, induced the crew and passengers to consent to
deviate from the course to the Havannah, against the
will of the. Portuguese Captain Costa Vianna, who
protested, as he has since declared, against the violation
of the Governor's orders. Steering to Bombeslock, he,
on his arrival there, found three American vessels, from
which he procured water-tanks, provisions, planks, fifty
muskets, and the other
.stores necessary ter his first
projected trade. Having obtained these, he sailed to
the coast of Poniba. Here, by deceit, he gained posses-
sion of a small boat, called a pangaille, got her crew
of six men on beard, and secured them in the hold or
between decks. When the chief of the boats remon-
strated against this act of fraud and violence, Vivo
justified himself on the ground that it was but a re-
taliation for the money of which the Governor of the
MozambiqUe had robbed him. On the following
morning the Pocha fell in with, and, by main force,
captured a large pangaille, manned by 18 free Arabs,
and containing 120 blacks. Having taken on board
these, and all the provisions and stores the boat con-
tained, he set it adrift with two old Arabs, of whose
fate nothing has been heard. The Pocha then re-
turned to Bombestock for the Lieutenant, who had
been left at that place to purchase rice. Thence she
went to Nossihe, where Vivo found the French sloop
of war Prevoyante, and went on board to visit Captain
Jehenne, who received him politely, invited him to
breakfast, and promised to return the visit the next
morning. Although no doubt of the Pocha being a
slaver could be entertained, Captain Jehenne was re-
strained from searching her, as Portugal did not
admit that right. More serious suspicions, however,
arose, when, early in the morning, instead of waiting
for Captain Jehenne's return visit, the Podia was
seen making off with all her sails set. In the course
of the day the whole shore was in commotion, it
having been discovered that she had landed some of
her men at another point of the island, and carried off
many men and women, after killing one man
who had offered resistance. The Prevoyante found
the Pocha again at the Island of Mayotte. As
the sloop approached, the men at her mast-head saw
many heavy bodies, but of what nature could not be
distinguished, thrown from the Pocha into the sea,
and then water was drawn up and dashed upon the
deck, as if to clean it. No doubt was entertained that
the objects thrown overboard were the poor blacks,
or some of them. Captain Jehenne sent an officer
into the vessel, who discovered in confinement the
Arabs who had been captured in the two .pangailles,
and at the same time ascertained that the vessel was
without any papers warranting her appearance in
that latitude. Upon these facts the Prevoyante took
possession of the Pocha, and carried her into the
island of Bourbon. Here the vessel was condemned,
and her crew sent to France to be tried for piracy.
On their arrival at Brest a correspondence took place
on the subject between the Governments of France
and Portugal, at the end of which the latter power
renounced all claim to the prisoners as its sub-
jects, and left them to be tried before the French
tribunal. After reading the indictment and the re-
' port of Captain Jehenne, and the other documentary.
evidence, the prisoner Vivo was interrogated, he
admittedall the essential facts, but.denied his being
guilty of piracy, justifying his seizure of the two pan-
gailles as a mere act of reprisal on the Governor of
the Mozambique, for taking from him the '2,500f.,
which he maintained was a robbery. He denied
having been guilty of any outrage on shore, and of
this it does not appear any evidence was produced.
He also denied that any blacks were thrown into the
sea. Vianna, the nominal Captain, Was next called
upon, to account for being engaged in these infamous
transactions. He declared that, although put in com-
mand of the Pocha by the Governor of the Mozambi-
que, he never had the least authority in her, which
was assumed and maintained throughout by Vivo, un-
der whose orders every transaction took place. He gave
his evidence with great reserve, being evidently under
strong fears of the consequences which might arise
from Vivo and his mate, who is evidently a man of
determined resolution as well as great physical
powers. Harnis Ben Omar, the owner of the smaller
pangaille, who came willingly to France to appear as
a witness on the trial, was examined, and gave, in
the French language, which he spoke well, a clear
and distinct account of the treacherous manner in
which he, his men, and boat, were gained posses-
sion of, and detained by the Pocha. He also acted
as interpreter in the examination of Bacari Iman
Bacos, the master of the larger boat. This witness
repeated the account of the capture of her by Ripoll,
and a crew sent out in the smaller pangaille. He
stated that he had in his boat 120 slaves, which he
had purchased for working an estate he possessed at
Langibar, and affirmed that he and his men were free
and independent, and that the Governor of Mozam-
bique had no property or interest whatever in the
slaves, which belonged to him alone. They both
complained bitterly of the treatment they received
on board the Pocha„ and more particularly at having
their beards shaven, which was a gross violation
of their religious feelings as Mahometans. Vivo,
however, justified the act as necessary for cleanli-
ness and the preservation of their health. The evi-
dence of the numerous other 'witnesses tended to
establish the truth of all the . facts stated. The
Commissaire Rapporteur, the public prosecutor in the
French Admiralty Courts, in delivering his requisi-
tory, insisted upon judgment against Vivo, Vianna,
and Ripoll, as having been guilty of piracy in seizing
and detaining the two pangailles, and plundering the
merchandise they contained, leaving the rest of the
prisoners to the discretion of the Court. The Tribu •
nal, after a very long deliberation, pronounced Vivo,
Vianna, and Ripoll guilty of piracy, but with exte-
nuating circumstances as to the two latter. Conse-
quently Vivo was sentenced to close confinement,
with labour, for ten years, and Vianna and Ripoll to
the same punishment for five years. The rest of the
prisoners composing the crew of the Pocha, forty-five
in number, were acquitted.

IM PE/UAL PARLIAMENT.
HOUSE OF COMMONS, July 13.
SUPPLY.

The Order of the Day having been read that the
House shoUld resolve itself into a Committee.of Supply,
. . Mr. WILLIAMS said, that in rising to address the
House on the subject of the proposed supplies, he had no
• wish to offer any factious opposition to the Government.
, There was evidence of the decline of the country, and-
they ought to look about them to see how it could be
best relieved. The country was much worse now than
it was this time last year, and distress was fast spreading
amongst classes where it did not appear before. Foreign
, competition was, algo on the increase; and- they should
look around them and try to reduce every item in their
expenditure. The Hon. Gentleman concluded by saying
that the services of certain clerks in the Treasury were
• not sufficient to entitle them to the remuneration they
received.
• Aker a short conversation between the Chancellor of
the Exchequer, Lord Palmerston, and Mr. Vernon
Smith, in vindication of the practice of allowing retiring
pensions to officers engaged in the public service, the
House 'vent into Committee of Supply, Mr. GREENE in
the chair.
Sir R. PEEL then moved that a sum of 33,11 CL should
be granted to defray the expenses of the British Museum.
Mr. lIAWES wished to know whether the Trustees
had taken any steps fir the purpose of throwing 'open
the library to the public?
Mr. HUME thought as the public money had been
expended in the erection of the building they ought to
have admission.
Sir R. INGLIS observed that it had been found im-
practicable to admit the public without distinction, -with
a due regard to the preservation of the books. The
Hon. Member for Montrose, however, must know the:
every facility was given to those to whom it was neces-
sary to attend them.
Mr. GALLY KNIGHT believed it would be impos-
sible to make out the catalogue of the books properly if
the public were indiscriminately admitted.
Dr. BOWRING said he wished to suggest the pro-
priety of having a class catalogue. The matter had
often been pressed upon the attention.of trustees, and it
was clear that such a catalogue, would afford greater as-
sistance to students.
Mr. EWART said he would take that opportunity of
suggesting the propriety of opening the library in the
evening for the working classes.—(' Nb, no.") In the
great library of Paris, which was opened every evening,
not the least inconvenience resulted from it.
Mr. HUME said as they were now voting 30,000/.
to this institution, he wished to say one or two • words in
' reference to ita present management. Though the
Archbishop of Canterbury might be a very good
theologian, and even a good naturalist, he thought
that as public money was . voted for the insti-
tution, there ought to be certain individuals ap-
pointed, who would be responsible to the Govern-
ment, and that the management should not be left
entirely in the hands of private trustees. The Hon.
Member then read extracts from the Report of the
Select Committee of the House, stating how the trustees
were appointed. .It was a close corporation, and was it
likely to act differently from all other self-elected corpo-
rations? He had no wish to interfere with the rights of
those who founded the Museum, yet, as the public had
in a great measure become the ruling body, it ought to
be popularised by the appointment of trustees by the
Secretary of State. The library, too, might be thrown
more open ; if they excluded the public from such places,
the most erroneous notions were formed. Even if the pub-
lic could only see the outside of the hooks, it might
commence a course of training, by which a taste for
reading might be infused.

- -
Sir ROBERT PEEL referred to the trustees id
were last elected, Mr. Grantley and Mr.
show that men of- eminent literary character were tli;
overlooked in the present arrangement. He assured !
House that there was no ground f r supposing that
trustees neglected their duty ; on the contrary, th
was no institution in the kingdom which was more
fully managed, or in which the officers better discba
their duties.

!
i

Mr. G. KNIGHT ,said that many improvements
been made, which proved that the trustees were aetns
by a. liberal spirit. The public had confidence in
trustees. He (Mr. Knight) would be the last n 155;
oppose change because' it was change, but he did
think the proposed change would he a good one.
In reply to an observation from Dr. BOWRING,
0,;
Sir G. CLERK stated that the trustees always t
a quarter's allowance of the grant beforehand.
After a slight conversation the vote was agreed tot .0
Sir G. CLERK moved that a sum of not 1(.55 0
106,0851. should be granted, till the 31st of
for the expense of work upon public buildings, tbrvlt
watching, lighting, taxes, &c. f to
Mr. HUME made some remarks deprecator.). °„chet
system of letting out part of Hampton Palace to bran'oplt
of the nobility free of rent, by which means the Iwo
were prevented access to some of the most ele:rotolthet
of the Palace. The Hon. Gentleman, amon'gsi tdingi
instances, stated that certain apartments, i"e;aiehit'
most beautiful chapel, were occupied by Adiviou, other
shed, who refused_ to allow any one to see it.
lady, who occupied thirteen rooms, used one verY,a't She
and elegant little room as a lumber-room, and le did
would not give up for the benefit of the public. ,1„t tfei
think, since things had come to this pass' 1.
, goy'
Lord pause before they granted this meney. '
•Biarch.lol6
Lord LINCOLN was happy to inform tnel
hsd
nourable Gentleman that' Admiral Whitshea;pbo
given up the chapel for the benefit of the et/
in consequence of a representation • that sue which
the. geceral desire. No doubt other parts, itss4
were particularly desired, would be given IV. IV
absolutely necessary to reserve a few rooms in the 100
for store-rooms, as the public had access to a
every room.
Mr. WILLIAMS should like to have the itenee
in detail, and he would move for returns °' .jelt
With regard to those Palaces he believed that 45J
sums were spent for tile purchase of houseSire.tli
Buckingham Palace ; and lie would like to know
they were not still purchasing houses around the 1i
laces. Here were seven Palaces for her Alejest& Ibt
did not think so many Palaces were necessary wet
comfort of her Majesty, or for the dignity of the et(
He believed there were some of them which were
seen by her Majesty. Why should not Kew 13„015'4,
fitted up for the Duchess of Kent ? He did -ooF
why it should be kept for the King of Hanover, ''l3l.n.ftlid
a foreign Prince ; or why 8001. should be pai°
Princess Sophia while she could have one of thellied
he did 'not receive an account of the expenses °
Palace EWARTuId oppose the vote. 011
Mr. did not think it right that the isf
should be excluded from Richmond and Kew
Some persons were.
Mr. PROTHEROE hoped that Bnckinghael je?,
would be completely fitted up for the Sovereign, 511,4::
a chapel would be attached to it.. It was itecessr,!e!
her Majesty now to go publicly to St. James's rai.
chapel, and it was on . those occasions that the
attempt on her Majesty's life had been made. ro
Mr. HAWES regretted that the Hon. MembV,
had just sat down made any allusion to the atteuTA
her Majesty's person.—(Hear, hear.) He 11°1V
her Majesty would be always seen amongst her s°
—(Hear, hear.) With regard to what had Niel?
the Hon. Member for Dumfries, -he perfectly' aft,
with him, that the Parks ought to be opened torej
wishing to drive in them. Th. public derive be,
advantage from the opening of Bushy Park, tinter,
not see why Kew should not be opened also. -11
kept for the King of Hanover, he thought it r
abuse of the public money.—(Hear, hear.) 115;,i
The Earl of LINCOLN said that more than
td •
the expenses of which the Hon. Member for C°for.
complained were incurred for the public and pot Dill,'
Sovereign. With regard to the allowance of
,01,
year to the Princess Sophia, it was most econor°1„1,(1,
the Palace to which the Hon. Member alluded ci‘4)ll,'
be fitted up for less than 10,0001. or 12,00'1,e/
regard to what had fallen from the Hon. Meralie,
Halifax as to the building of a chapel for her '.ur
attached to Buckingham Palace, ho did not thloft,
was taking too great a' liberty with the nave
Sovereign in saying that no sentiment of fear W°l,lo,
Any effect in preventing her Majesty from eta ° pe;
divine worship, or taking her usual drive in the,
boPt,
He might mention an instance of the anxiety wu.
Majesty and Prince Albert entertained to save „c;
lie money. Last year the House would recollect
,iide
siderable sum had been voted for the purpose of h!o,itf.
two beautiful conservatories on the grounds of Pro'
ham Palace. Her Majesty, however, instead of eiodi
ing that money in beautifying her garden, ealet.„
chapel to be erected with it contiguous to the l'orio
(Hear.) With regard to Richmond and Kew 14ti.olt,E,
certainly must say, that it was not nearly so ut
obtain entrance to them, as people not livin,gbA
neighbourhood were apt to imagine. Ile he° 0
though as little known to any of the gate-keeper: lssti,
one else could be, frequently ridden in the l'srl;et)ilt
Gardens were the only ones which remained t° ,t fr
jesty and her family; they had been formerly kelabe)
kind of nursery, and he would submit that it w° a,. eoty
well to preserve the limitation which at resent LelJ,
of keeping them private four days a week. •J! ii)ereY
recaected that the Botanical Gardens at ge';
ways open.
Mr. PROTHEROE explaind. et,
Mr. EWART begged to ask if means were be"
to carry out a motion which was made seime 1114!
extending Regent's Park to Primrose Hill.
Lord LINCOLN stated that Regent's Park ,
undergone considerable improvements.
Mr. HUME disapproved of certain ground
ton Gardens (as we understood) having been
subsequently built upon.
Lord LIN C 0.14 N stated that it had been done ill
ante with an Acf passed in the last Parliament- 0001
Mr. PROTHEROE agreed with Mr. Hume tee
,T round should not have been built upon.—The
then agreed to. fot
The next vote proposed was that of 4,75
provements on the Holyhead and Liverpool ro,s(iflP
Holyhead Harbour, and the Shrewsbury and l'°'
road, which was agreed to.
A vote of 33,748/. was then proposed for tild'
buildings at the British Museum, including the ita'
meats on the south front.

,ot°

After a few words from Mr. HUME the '1.,)
agreed to.
A vote of 5,395/. was proposed for providing Nisi
accommodation until the new Houses of Far ty
should be completed.—Agreed to. ford
The next vote proposed was that of 105,000 e ele
expenses in building the new Houses of Bali°
the Ist of April, 1843.
Mr. HUME wished to know when the buildiWat
be completed at the rate they were going on
sent; twenty years, or when? 04.1
Lord LINCOLN said he could not precisely
the buildings would be entirely completed. He si4
it was probable they might sit in the new Honse to,)
session of 1845, certainly in 1846; the Victornlredr
however, and other parts, might not be finish
considerable time.
Mr. HUME said the expenditure was most fififjo
i
gent and unnecessary; they might make a fine f I
but it would never do for a House of Parliatool
vote was then agreed to.
On the vote for 2,0181. for the Museum o
Geolo
Mr. HUME approved of the object of the 50,0
but deprecated maintaining a laboratory fort'°
ores for private parties. The building was to
for its purpose. He objected to the vote.
The vote was agreed to.
On 19,026/. being proposed for finishing the 1711.'
for the model prison,
(ford
Mr. WILLIAMS said the present vote was 'accol'cot
taming 250 convicts at 13s. a week each, in6o
where the wages of hundreds of industri:, e P'Ci4
were 3s. a week. He presumed that t:iprille
prison was to be on the plan of the 'hie pelt
prison in the State of New York, but tof fog
convicts, by their labour, paid the full o cosvll no
maintenance. The whole of that immense ViiriAlio,
built by. the prisoners themselves. In this 013451 d
means were even taken to effect this object. -,A,;te,to
why not transport them ? The cessation of the, ;10,,,ict
transportation had much injured the penal e°')i oe
they would now be glad to give Si. for el )hire
they could send them. They would willinfq; ,to
labour of the convicts, labour being so valunv'e.'ine lied
JAMES GRAHAM said when they
pc'oaleboil
office they found the building so far, ;lief igig
that they could not abandon it, even if. „rpf°`o„'
doubted its policy. But so far from u'ts-1, tOrisl,
of it,, they thought it an experiment well wort
The experiment, therefore, should undergo ,-00„re
and he hoped the House and the Govertne°„"ot app apt'
prove of it. As to the transportation, he did "itn:sln-teo
of the continuance of it as a secondary slari
Subject to proper regulations the abuses tsecollrae
might be removed, so as to render it an effieic_n„ald „tia
punishment. He intended that this prison 'ostrot`bers
in aid of the system of transportation, byioding
prisoners or skilled labourers previous to 9
to!
to a penal colony. ellit'ec o Pt°
Dr. BOWRING asked whether, in the tr angre-
arrangements of the prison, there were anYzi. ri'
for central inspection P ~, the Pi;
Sir J. GRAHAM had not been able to 0000
son, but he believed the best mode of constr
Os°
adopted. of P (10'
Mr. HUME approved of a better sYster° w -he
discipline being adopted, if transportation we re
continued.
After a few remarks from Lord STANIASI':

AThevnvtonteolfraBs,6thse42 ahgarseiendgtob.een
BOWRING, .
S'
r the e 1
penses for the prison
,for juvenile offenders 10
Wight, ~„ fru-A
Sir J. GRAHAM 43....- hp.
Mr. Hume) stated (in reply to a que'ciers u ,
. ae.n that some of the juvenile offen,,, 0,
,si,
increase of expenditure had thus been
pan _ sent out at the expense of the state te l'e,, sv
proposed.
_le isle 0
Al
ndl and the worse-conducted to Van Pin° ci.
Mr. V. iiicarreof itIO
offenders
juvenile females, h
owever, were not so-
country. chile
. ;ave.
SMITH doubted the policy, of sea
"bore
the)
w.ould be expnsed to a eom-etition with Pnrtie 00, tho
characters had never been I.*
11 He thovat, t. iy to
tainted. e ', 1
the course was like ca
to a colony like New Zealand, 10'1 whose
adopted by the Government consider ,
hold out a premium to crime, and might be means cli
as a bardsh.
eminTati ' „ ng from this country. G over°.
ip by honest persons who had n°
Lord STANLEY said that the object of4bo ,th 0
meat was to send those offenders from the scene ei

trustees
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