The Sun.
London, England, 1827-03-03 00:00:00

GAME LAWS.

Lord WHARNCLIFFE proposed that the Game
Laws Bills should be read a second „time on Tuesday, the 13tb
instant, and that the Lords be summoned for that day.—Ordered.
Mr. Lloyd, from the Board of Trade, presented Returns from
the Foreign Consuls relative to the Prices of Foreign Corn.—
Laid on the Table.
COLONIAL CRIMINAL LAW.
Earl BATHURST moved an humble Address to
his Majesty, that he would be pleased to order to be laid before
their Lordsl.ip; a Copy of the Third Report made by the Com-
missioners appointed to inquire into the Administration of Justice
in the West India Islands.—Ordered.
His Lordship then laid on their Lordships' Table a Copy of
the Second Report of the same Commissioners, and gave notice
that he should, in a short time, bring in a Bill to improve the
Administration of Justice in our Colonies.
IRISH VESTRY ACT. _ _ _ _

Lord KING gave notice, that he would, on Mon-
day next, present a petition from certain Roman Catholics of Ire-
land, complaining of the Irish Vestry Act, under the authority of
which the petitioners had been made to contribute to repair Pro-
testant Churches. He gave notice, because the petition contained
several reflections on the Clergy of Ireland, and he should not
wish, therefore, to present it unless souls of the Spiritual Lords
were present. If it would be convenient for them to attend, he
should present the petition on Monday.--Adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.-IStaacat 2.
TIIE CATHOLIC QUESTION.
The MASTER of the ROLLS presented a Peti
tion from the Archdeacon and Clergy of Ely, against any further
concessions to the Roman Catholics.
The Marquis of CHANDOS, on presenting a si-
milar Petition from a parish in Buckinghamshire, remarked that
be would oppose the attempts of the Catholics to possess them-
selves of political power as long as he had the honour of a seat in
that House. The Catholic Question was of such an agitating
and dangerous character that Government ought to settle it one
way or the other.—(Hear !)—Their conduct in avoiding it was
equally unfair, both to the Protestant and to the Catholic.—
s(uClitleedersf;:o)m—tThielepet presentiti o nsetrast,e nofthe
illustration
Catholic
Question,of tlie evilsre fet hr
raetdre-
t
' the language and proceedings of the Catholic Association,
which, they stated truly, had a direct tendency to excite insur-
rection among the Irish population ; and they, therefore, prayed
that that body might be suppressed by law.
Mr. A. DAWSON said he would shortly expose
the hypocrisy and inconsistency which this petition was founded
upon. The petitioners stigmatised the conduct of the Irish Ca-
tholics. But what, he asked, had the English Parliament done
for the Catholics of England; who had used no inflammatory lan-
guage? What course were the Irish Catholics to follow? If they
were silent, it was said they took no interest in the question. If
they asserted their rights, they were treated as libellers and in-
cendiaries.—( Cheers. )
Mr. VILLIERS STUART said the only way to
put an end to the Catholic Association was, by granting Catholic
Emancipation.
Mr. H. GRATTAN censured the language gene-
rally used by the petitioners against the Catholics.
Mr. M'NAUGTEN presented a Petition, nume-
rously signed, from the county of Antrim, praying for the r 2-
pression of the Catholic Association.
Mr. BASTARD presented six Petitions from
Hundreds in Devonshire, against the Catholic Claims.
Mr. G. R. DAWSOIi said he had several Peti-
tions to present from different parts of Ireland to the same effect.
This was a duty which he willingly and cheerfully performed, as
his opinions on this question remained unchanged. One of these
Petitions was signed by moo persons, and had been passed at
a Public Meeting of Protestants, called for the purpose of expres-
sing their sentiments respecting the principles and practices of the
Roman Catholics. In the Meetings of the Catholic Association it
had been asserted that the opinion of the Irish people was univer-
sally in favour of the Catholic Claims. But this assertion had
been disproved by'the acts of the people. The county he repre-
sented (Derry) had assembled and agreed to a Petition against
any further coneessions. That example had been followed by the
county of Antrim, one of the most populous and wealthy counties
in Ireland. It had spread through the counties of Fermanagh,
Tyrone, Donegal, and all the influential parts of the North of
Ireland. He had also to present a Petition from the County of
Wicklow. where the gentry felt the same determination to resist
the claims of the Catholics ; and another from the County of
Westmeath, which Ye deemed of considerable importance. The
Petition from Derry was signed by all the resident gentry of that
county, and that from Wicklow by a great majority of them, in-
cluding two or three Peers of the Realm, and most of those who
composed the Grand Jury, as well as by a great number of
persons of small property, who were neither under the controul
of their landlords nor their priests.—(Cheers.) This fact was
the more important as there was no county in Ireland more
miserably afflicted than Westmeath was with the pestilential
influence of the Roman Catholic Priesthood.—(Cheers from
both sides of the House.) He understood the meaning of the

cheers from the Hon. Gentleman opposite. He could not at that
moment stop to justify his language ; but when the proper time
came he was prepared to prove against some of the Priests cases
of such gross abuse of their spiritual authority as, it was hardly
possible to suppose beforehand could have taken place in a civilised
country.—(Hear, hear.)—lf the people of England would not al-
low such a domination as this to continue in Ireland, they must
take on their heads the consequences of permitting this supre-
macy of the Catholic Priesthood. In hie opinion, all the evils
that existed in Ireland were traceable to the Priests and the Ca-
tholic Association.—(Cheers.)--Nothing could be more fatal to
the peace of Ireland than that body. No man dared to give an
opinion on public matters, without subjecting himself to the taunts
and attacks of that mischievous and illegal body. One petition he
had to present was from the town of Headfort, in the county of
Galway. All the:inhabitants had signed it ; yet, till within the
last two years, they had been warm advocates of what was called
Catholic Emancipation ; but, in consequence of the misery they
had seen introduced into Ireland, through the agency of the Ca-
tholic Association, they felt themselves compelled, in self-defence,
to send up a petition that no further concessions should be made,
in compliance with the views, political or religious, of any portion
of their fellow subjects, and that the law might be strengthened,
in order to put down the mischievous Association of Dublin.—
This was the feeling from one end of Ireland to the other among
the Protestants.—(Loud cries of " hear, hear.")—He repeated it.
Let any man go to Ireland, he would then see which was the op-
pressed party.—(Hear, hear.)—lt was the poor Protestant, who
lived constantly in terror for his life and property.—(Loud cries
of "hear, hear," from the Opposition Benches.)—Yes, he main-
tained, the Protestants lived in terror for their property as well as
their lives. What did the Catholic Association mean by voting a
part of the funds they drew from their starving dupes, to defray
the expences of a Committee (for they imitated in every point of
form the proceedings of Parliament), to search out the foundation
of every man's title to his estates ? Was he not, then, justified in
saying, that the Protestants lived in terror ? They knew they
were inferior in numbers, and they felt their misery and degrada-
tion. The great majority had-now spoken out their sentiments,
and he trusted the House would, as in duty it was bound to do,
save them Worn the dangers that surrounded and threatened them.
Mr. J. GRATTAN had heard with astonishment
the inflammatory and seditious speech of the Hon. Member op-
posite. It was true that the Yeomanry of Wicklow were un-
friendly to the claims of the Catholics, because that body had
been employed during the rebellion of 1798, and conceived that
the. Catholics of Ireland were opposed to the rights and property
of the Protestants. It was by such speeches as that just made
by the Hon. Member for Derry that men were led astray. He
denied that the majority of the Protestant Landed Proprietors of
Wicklow were hostile to Catholic Emancipation. He (Mr.
Grattan) was not himself friendly to the Catholic Asiociation,
yet he trusted that that Association would persevere in their
efforts, until his Majesty's Roman Catholic subjects obtained
their rights.
Lord NORMANBY declared that he was a warm
friend to Catholic Emancipation, though not personally connected
with Ireland. He thought that the speech which the Hoe. Mem-
ber for Derry (Mr. G. Dawson) had that eight delivered, most
tend to convince the House that the present state of things could
not continue.--(Loud cheers.)---The Hon. Gentleman, a Member
of that Government which undertook to put down the Catholic
Association, had stated that that Association still existed with
all its baneful consequences. The Hon. Gentleman, a supporter
of the existing laws, had told the House, that in the present state
of Ireland, no Protestant could sleep with security in his bed.
He would ask the Hon. Gentleman, then, whether, when the
question of Catholic Emancipation was brought forward, he
would dare to rise in his place, and oppose a measure calculated
to tranquillize that country?
Mr. G. MOORE maintained, that the great body
of the landed proprietors of Wicklow were hostile to the claims of
the Catholics.
Mr. PROBY confirmed the statement of his Hon.
Friend the Member for Wicklow (Mr. J. Grattan), that the ma-
jority of the Protestant inhabitants of Wicklow were favourable
to Catholic Emancipation.
Mr. BROWNLOW said, he had received a letter
from the Colleague of the Honourable Member for Derry (Mr. J.
GFattan), stating, that a petition, signed by 3,000 inhabitants of
Londonderry,
Emancipation.
would be transmitted to him (Mr. B.), praying for
Catholic
Sir G. HILL asked whether the petition was signed
by any Protestant inhabitants of Londonderry, or exclusively by
Roman Catholics?
Mr. BR OWNLOW could not answer the ques-
tion of the Hon. Baronet, as he had not yet received the petition.
Sir G. HILL said, he would answer for it there
were not two Protestant names to the petition.—(A laugh.)
Sir J. NEWPORT said, that however intemperate
the language used by the members of the Catholic Association
might occasionally have been, no speech could exceed in violence
and intemperate statement that which the Hon. Member opposite
had himself addressed to his constituents of Derry. Had such
a speech been addressed in the South of Ireland to a Catholic as-
sembly, as the Hon. Member opposite had addressed to a Pro-
testant assembly, the utterer of it might justly have been charged
with seditiously attempting to excite disturbance, and involve the
inhabitants in a civil war.
Mr. G. DAWSON, while he entertained the greatett
respect for the character of the Right Hon. Gentleman oppo-
site (Sir J. Newport) in common with every one who had
watched the progress of his public life, could not but complain
of the unfair manner in which he had taken this opportunity of
charging him (Mr. D.) with uttering seditious speeches, either to
his constituents or in his place in Parliament. This was not the
first time that he (Mr. D.) had been accused of being in the ha-
bit of indulging in inflammatory language.—(Hear, hear, bear,
from the Opposition benches.)—He had uniformly expressed the
feelings of his mind with the same freedom, and no more than
the same freedom as Hon. Gentlemen opposite ; and he would
tell the Hon. Baionet that he should continue, notwithstanding
his taunts, to express in strong language his opinions and feelings
with regard to the Catholic Association, both in that House and
the county of Derry, whenever he might feel it his duty to ad-
dress his constituents.
Mr. J. GRATTAN begged to ask the Hon.
Gentleman whether the petition from 'Wicklow had been agreed
to at a Public Meeting.
duals.
G. DAWSON could not say whether there
had been a public meeting. The petition had been transmitted to
him
was
signed b ya gentlemanup
upwards of
opfr property in tih
aid, that as a freeholder of
Mr. H. GRATTAN
S
the county of Wicklow, he should shortly have a petition to pre-
sent from that part of Ireland, similar in character to one which
had been recently presented. As to intemperate and violent lan-
guage, he could not help reminding the Hon. Gentleman opposite
iudsl county
a
. of Wicklow, and
of the language used by a Member of the Government with respect
to certain party toasts proposed at the dinner given to his Majesty
by the Corporation of Dublin. His Majesty had expressed his
disapprobation of these toasts, but a Member of the Irish Go-
vernment did not concur in his Majesty's opinion. The Hon.
Member then read a passage in a letter signed by the Hon. Mem-
ber for Derry (Mr. G. Dawson), expressing approbation of the
toasts in question.
Mr. G. DAWSON complained of Hon. Members
opposite making him the butt on all occasions.—(A 'ugh.) One
would not allow him to speak, and another would not allow him
to drink a glass of wine.—(Laughter.)—lt was not fair in the
Honourable Member to make him responsible for statements
made in newspaper paragraphs and reports. If he had any fault
to find with his conduct, let him make his charge in such a way
as would afford him (Mr. D.) an opportunity of answering it.
Mr. SPRING RICE strongly deprecated this
intrusion of spiritual warmth upon the discussion of such a ques-
tion. He entreated them not to lower themselves in the eyes of
the country, or impair their utility, by exhibiting a want of
dignity and temper on such an occasion as the present.—(Hear.)
The petitions presented by Mr. Dawson were then laid on
the table.
Mr. PLUNKETT presented a petition from the
Roman Catholics of several parishes in Ireland, couched in ve
respectful and temperate language, one of which
quest to have read, in the hope of recalling the House to some de-
gree of good temper upon this occaion.
One of the petitions was then read, and together with the
others subsequently laid on the table.
THE ROMAN CATHOLIC PRELATES.
Mr. PLUNKETT rose, in consequence of the
notice which he had given last night, to prevent the petition of
the Roman Catholic Prelates of Ireland, praying for a. repeal
of the disabilities which affected their body. He was particu-
larly anxious to call the attention of the House to this petition,
because of the important information it conveyed, the great re-
spectability of the persons from whom it canoe, aid who were en-
titledhigh station and character of these petitionees which gave them
which they had of pos
to every consideration'from that Howie. It was not only the
that consideration, but the opportunities
sessing an intimate knowledge of the situation of the people, of
whose views and wants they were the most competent judges.—
They stated that they felt the greatest reluctance in coming for.

Ward in any manner to participate in the consideration of a merely
political question, but they added that they would be wanting in
duty, .both to the Government and the people, if they abstained
from communicating‘their sentiments in the present crisis. They
.stated that they would be wanting in their solemn duty, if they
did not, at this alarming moment, raise their warning voice against
the continuance of disabilities which prevented them from the
discharge of their proper functions for the people. Thev
pointed out the deep sense of degradation under which the

Catholics laboured, and the galling superiority evinced by
their Protestant brethren, in many instances not so meekly
as it were to be wished it should be evinced. The
petitioners did, in the most solemn and deliberate man-
ner, refute those calumnies which had been thrown upon them,
and they repeated, once more, what they had before declared upon
their oaths. It had been asserted that their religious tenets pre-
cluded them from being either good subjects, good citizens, or good
members of society. Nothing could be more incorrect than these
assertions, and whatever opinions Honourable Members might
entertain upon the great question, he was quite sure that every
impartial person would join with him in giving these respectable
individuals credit for that good order and honesty of conduct
which had always characterised the body to which they belonged.
If the laws were obeyed in Ireland, as they now were, it was en-
tirely owing to the superintendence of the great body of Catholic
clergy, and to them that quiescence of the people was to be at-
tributed. It was then quite impossible that any extensive public
body should be without some slur upon their conduct, but he
would contend that, with respect to this body, impropriety formed
the exception, and that any dereliction from duty in individuals
was always reprimanded. by the great body as soon as it was men-
tioned to them. He would not trespass any further on the at-
tention of the House, -but he trusted that they would not think
their time thrown away in hearing the petition read. He would
now move that the petition be brought up.
Mr. AGAR ELLIS was anxious to say a few
words
upon this petition. As an individual Member of Parlia-
ment he
might not have any claim upon the attention of the,
House, but as a person interested in a question which so nearly
concerned Ireland, and as a holder of property in that country, he
could not help standing up to say that on 'the decision of this great
question depended the peace and happiness of Ireland. He
wished that his voice could be heard, not only in this House, but
in another also; he wished that it could penetrate the ears of the
blind and obstinate opponents of Catholic Emancipation elsewhere,
and remind them that the moment was at hand which would fur-
nish them probably with the last opportunity of meeting this
question with the sward still slcAering in the scabbard, and
that the only means of preventing dissension and bloodshed,
was to grant to Ireland the rights which bad so long been
'denied -to it.
Sir GEORGE HILL said, that with the objec-
tions which be entertained to these claims, it was impossible for
him to refrain from one or two arguments, in opposition to the
Pantnricwhich had been passed on the Roman Catholic clergy.
It was notorious in Ireland, and it ought to be quite as no-
torious !n •this country, that the whole body of the Roman
Catholic clergy had identified themselves with the Catholic
Association; that it had joined them in all their projects; and
that the demagogues and agitators of the public peace by whom
that Association had Leen established, were encouraged by them.
He would ask the House to look over the petition, and see if the
name of Dr. Doyle was attached to it : was the name of that in-
dividual attached to it who was so well known in Ireland by the
initials J. K. L. ? He did not mean to dispute with his Majesty's
Attorney-General for Ireland the cause of the peace of that coun-
t, but he would ask where the Roman Catholic Clergy were
from 1819 to 1823, when the western and southern parts of
Ireland were in a state little short of rebellion ? Did they put
d°wil those disturbances ? No. They were put down by a two-
fold number of troops. He had attended to the trials in the
south of Ireland for a conspiracy, and it was proved upon those
trials that 17 counties had sent delegates to a meeting, the object
of which was to separate the two countries; but he had never
discovered that the Roman Catholic Clergy had used any means to
prevent such meeting, or to divert the peoplo from the object
Which they had in view.,

Mr. H. MAXWELL said, that he also found it
impossible to agree in the 'panegyric which had been passed upon
the Roman Catholic Clergy of Ireland. What had been their conduct
during the last general election ?—(Hear.)--He had himself be-
held the es p • ts heading large mobs, and heard them exciting the
Catholics- priests
the most inflammatory language. He had seen them
driving bhe'peopleto the hustings, and attending them to the poll-
ing booths, one priest being before and one behind them.—(A
L"' ugh.)--11e would relate to the House a fact respecting one of
the _Priests, which was supported by affidavit. There was a f ree -
newer who had voted contrary to the wishes and directions of a
-o
Pfriett, and who was blind of one eye.—(A laugh.)—This mis-
rtuoe, severe enough of itself, ought, it would be supposed, at
least to have protected him from insult because he had been vi-
si
a ted
nd
with it. The
priest, however, was of a different opinion,
after the election was over he one day called out to the
people, from the altar, and said—" Look at that blind-eyed ras-
cal Who voted so and so- at the late election. Ile is blind of one
eye, and he shall never open it but in the flames of bell."
---(Laughter, and cries of hear. ) He had so many facts related
etneoaah respecting this priest, that he would mention his name to
(we
eliouse—he was the Rev. Patrick Corr, parish priest of —,
said,
that
were unable to catch the name). The same priest had also
a at be (mr. 1/.
Maxwell) and his Hon. Colleague "should
bedmned to all eternity, and might his curse light upon them
and the curse of God -likewise." The-Hon. Member said that
he would not trouble the House with any further instances of this
nature ; but he would contend, that so far from the conduct of the
Roman Catholic clergy of Ireland deserving the approbation or the
thanks of the country. the fact was the very reverse. The Hon.
Member concluded by expressing a hope that the people of Ireland
would be shortly emancipated from the power of their priests, and
learn to think for themselves. Ireland would then be very dif-
ferent to what it now was—the Catholic would join with the Pro-
testant
in friendly intercourse, and England and Ireland, no longer
separated, would form one happy country.--(Hear.)
Mr. M. FITZGERALD said, that an expression
of his Right Honourable Friend the Attorney-General for Ireland
.--namelY, that the peace and tranquillity of Ireland was mainly
attributable to the Roman Catholic clergy—had brought up ten
1-Imourable Gentlemen who had endeavoured to invalidate this
Pliti°a• The House must certainly have perceived that it was a
math ,-7.1 of mystery that persons connected with the Government
t --at come forward with such contradictory statements. From the
Right IT
ao• Member (Sir G. Hill) had issued some expressions, by
Which i- "e imported almost treason to the Catholic prelates of Ireland.
--e lam of that Hen. Member's objections to the Catholic priest-
e°4 of Ireland was,that they interfered with the election. Now,
DitrLeallY aPpeared to him to- be very unreasonable that Catholic
' --' should be refused an interference which was constantly
exercised b
ni; : -1 the Protestant Clergy.—(Cheers.)--If it were im-
PIN" m the one, by what argument was it attempted to be
' ".11 that it was improper in the other ? Was it meant to be
Zdtended that an act was bad when committed by those who
had Power at all, and good only when exercised by those who
Neitherall the Power in their own hands ?_.(Loud cheers.)—
ti , a
Protestant nor as a politician did he see why the
tiLte_ of our Clergy should be contended for in this par-
reqlri, and those of the Catholics denied.—(Hear, hear !)
ann 0: e'v° Part he would say, that during the various rebellions
jug ikeeethr‘eats of invasion, he had had an opportunity of observ-
ounct of the Catholic clergy, and he must declare that
thineortbeseto°antai
of peace in some places, and the preservation of it
It was rsb, were almost wholly attributable to the Catholic Clergy.
coast o Yil:eir means that, although the French were on the
withdraw al theultY
(RerrY) that his Majesty was enabled to
Bay he beheld
a zeal which could
the
troops, ainl when tbe French were in Bantry
Peasantry dragging his Majesty's cannon with
....r.
___ _ not be surpasged.
INI WILMn-r
to look to the terms of the petition before them,
' HORTON besought the House
Mr.Theentit'Aon,AsothNen read throughout,
eesaarily to le h eervations in),c_oeszepience although he had no wish unne-
en the discusaion, was induced to make a few ob-
the Atterne of the importance to which theßight Hon.
It mid at
. length. r•ari for Ireland had conferred upon it by having
they, otterea for heir petitioners Petitioners stated that the surety which
never yet bad any meangood intentions ought to be received, but
of the Roman Catholi s been discovered by which the allegiance
numerous instances:
reperoiredstinhood could be bound. There were
had offered their oaths which the Roman Catholic clergy
fester], and afterwards to
eionfirm the allegiance which they pro-
Pope Was opposed to that drew that oath when the power of the
to serve. In the
grace was reigntendered
G to the
f of the monarch whom they bad sworn
° 'Tames I. particularly, the oath of alle-
lii,verY of the Roman Catholic priests just after the
and even the po ,unpowder Plot. All the Catholic prelates,
it Was tlien sent tpoes legate in this country, took the oath, and
but as itWas
found ome to receive the sanction of the Pope
deposing kings that the oath denied the Pope's power of
agreed totake
it was sent back again; the persons who had
tip, _ the oath were ordered to recant, which the
o and the oath of elle '
they
1799 never taken. In the ear
, to take a _ glance was . y.
Was biped , touch more recent instance, a declaration
shop,, oy four metropolitan bishops, arid six other bi-
.y_n consenting that the King should have the power of
fp i K a veto in the election of their bishops. This declare-

tion received the sanction of a great number of Catholics
and their friends. Dr. Millner, their champion and advocate,
Lord Grenville, Mr. Ponsonby, and many others, had. declared
their approbation of it, and it was regarded generally as the means
of settling the Roman Catholic claims. At the very moment that
this declaration was beginning to have the effect which, if it was
earnest and true, it was entitled to, they turned round and re-
canted. They professed attachment to the Constitution, and of
respect for the religion of the country in this petition, and in the
letter which the Hon. Member for Cavan (Mr. Maxwell) had
read, Dr. Doyle had described that religion as an incubus on the
nation, and had compared its worship to that of the idol of Jug-
gernaut, to which human victims were sacrificed. And yet, after
this, the same Dr. Doyle came to add his voice to the expressions
of attachment and respect he had alluded to.—(Hear, hear.)—He
had had occasion before to notice some of the inconsistencies of
this Right Rev. Prelate, but never had the occasion seemed to him
more urgent, or the inconsistency more glaring, than the pre-
sent.—(Cheers.)
Lord F. L. GOWER was as willing as any person
could be to appeal to the evidence of history for the regulation of
existing politics. But there were more ways than one of making
this appeal. One way was, by raking up facts which had become
obsolete, and the causes by which they bad been prc;duced were
passing away. Another way, and that, which as a representative
of that House and a Christian he preferred, was by investigating
the sins and frailties of humanity to learn a lesson of Christian
charity. He would not advocate the excesses of the Rev. Patrick
Corr er of Mr. Doyle, but they would probably learn, from the
indications which these persons had presented, some notion of the
tremendous power of that Catholic clergy which was now excited
in opposition to the Government.—(Loud cheers.)—The Hon.
Member for Cavan believed that conversion would afford a suffi-
cient remedy for the evils which agitated Ireland. He wished,
with all his heart, that the design might be seconded ; but this
was by no means a new notion. It was proposed, in the reign of
Charles H., by Lord Tyrconnel to Lord Bellasise, who, iu his
reply, displayed that acrimony which had unhappily so often
characterized the discussions of this subject, by saying that Lord
Tyrconnel was fool and madman enough to ruin ten kingdoms,—
(Cheers.)
Sir W. PLUNKETT, after the speech of the
Noble Lord, would have been well contented that the subject
should drop, but that it was impossible for him to let what had
fallen from the Honourable Member for the county of Derry (Mr.
Dawson) pass without observation. The House would recollect
that; in opening this subject, he (Sir W. Plunkett) had abstained
from touching on any of the topics which belonged to it, wishing
that as little as possible should be said on them until Monday,
which had been fixed for the discussion of the question, and being
desirous not to excite any feeling on the subject before that day;
he did hope that the Members of the House would, with alacrity
have joined him in the testimony which he bore, and which his
conscience obliged him to utter, to the loyalty, goad conduct, and
constitutional principles of the great body of the Roman Catholic
Clergy of Ireland. *He repeated, and he did not find that there
had been any attempt to contradict the assertion he had made,
that they were distinguished for uniform obedience to the laws:
But how had the Hon. Members for the City and the County of
Derry (Mr. Dawson and Sir G. Hill), and the Hon. Member for
Cavan (Mr. Maxwell), endeavoured to shake this well-earned re-
putation? By impeaching the conduct of the general body? No, but
by bringing before the notice of the House and the Country,
some circumstances which they did not approve of in the con-
duct of individuals. If any person should follow a similar
course with respect to the great body-of the Protestant clergy of
Ireland, and seek to impeach the whole body by dragging before
the public view the excesses of any One individual belonging to it,
was this a test which they could abide by?—(Cheers.)—Such a
practice would lead to an odious and unsatisfactory system of re-
crimination, into which he could not condescend to be led.—
(Hear.)—As to Dr. Doyle's letter, he did not hesitate to say that
he utterly condemned the sentiments it contained, and the manner
in which those sentiments were expressed. But was the great
body of the Catholic priesthood therefore to be condemned? The
Hon. Member for Cavan said, this letter was addressed to a noble
relative of his, but had the Hon. Gentleman caited the attention of
the House to the proceedings-of-that noble relative? He had no
doubt that the Noble Lord (Farnham) had been induced to adopt
that conduct from purely conscientious motives. He had taken
upon himself to convert the Roman Catholics of Ireland to
the Protestant religion. Had he, however, in the cru-
sade which he had thought fit, for the peace of Ireland,
to undertake at this . moment, done nothing_ wh:..,11 might
have provoked, although nothing could justify, the sentiments
and expressions of the letter which had been alluded to ?
(Hear, hear.)—To the endeavour of converting the Catholics
he wished from the bottom of his heart the fullest success ; but, at
the same time, he must add, that it was without the least hope,
the pursuit being, in his opinion, the merest chimera that ever be-
wildered the mind of man.—(Laughter.)—Was it likely that the
Roman Catholic Clergy should stand quietly, with their arms
folded, before their assailants, and make no effort of defence when
-their religion was impugned ? Did any man who was attacked by
another, sword in hand, content himself with parrying only ; did
he not thrust in return ? If any men, or set of men, were out-
raged, could it be expected that they would not outrage in return,
and when, in addition to this, the nature of the contest was consi-
dered the odium plusquam civil. which theological disputes en-
gendered, it was not to be wondered at that the conflict should be
carried on with pertinacity and rancour. lie had reason to know
that it was his duty to tell the House, that from these disputes
dangers must spring, which he prayed to God Might be averted,
but which, if they were not, must be, in their consequences of a
most alarming tendency. He knew that since this wild crusade
had been commenced, a determination, which no man could
blame, had been formed by the Catholic Clergy to discuss openly
the merits of the two religions, and for this purpose to meet. their
adversaries openly. This Was occasioned by the conduct of the
Protestant Clergy, none of whom he should at this moment name,
but who, not content with exercising their labours in their own
emhparisahssies throughout es, andrfotvgmhotuhteirthowemepouulnptirty, pulpits, heandalgleonngeinegn jtoiuiernißesomanand
Catholic Clergy to meet and discuss the doctrines of the two
religions, and even appealing to lay tribunals to decide between
them. The conduct of the clergy of the Catholics had been ab-
stinent and becoming in a remarkable degree. They had refused
to accept the challenges which were thus repeatedly sent to them,
and they had in consequence been taunted for their forbearance
and told that it sprung from fear of their opponents. That ab-
stinence and that fear, if it had ever existed, were now at an end.
The Catholic clergy had, resolved to accept the invitation which
had been given them for discussing the tenets of their faith, and
unless the interference of common sense should put a stop to the
headlong career of the persons he had alluded to, the whole force
of the Catholic priesthood would be called out in this theological
warfare ; they would have J. K. L.'s, and all the other letters in
the alphabet, taking part in the controversy, but it was clear that,
after it had begun, this controversy would not continue to be merely
theological. Was it not to be apprehended that the Catholic po-
pulation of Ireland, who had been represented as an ignorant
people, under the influence of a strong attachment to their clergy,
would not be merely calm observers of a contest in which their
feelings and their passions, if not their interests, must be engaged?
These disputes were to be carriedjon in their presence, and they
were to be the judges of them. Was nothing to be feared from
the excitement to which such displays must give rise, and was
this additional ingredient to be thrown into the cauldron of dis-
content and mischief which was boiling over in that country ?--
(Hear.)—He eared not for J. K. L. ; lie condemned him altoge-
ther ; but at the same time he could not shut his eyes to the pro-
vocation which the noble relative of the Hon. Member for Cavan
had given him. The objections of the Hon. Member for Derry to
the petitioners seemed to be unreasonable beyond all measure. He
had taken the pains to collect instances of objectionable conduct
on the part of Catholics formerly, and he argued that because the
Catholics of the present day renounced and disproved of such con-
duct, they were not to be trusted.—(Hear.)—This was an extra.
ordinary reason for objecting to them. In former times, such as re-
fused to recant their errors were doomed to the stake and faggot ;
now, the Hon. Member for Derry would have them treated in the
same way because they were willing to recant.—(Cheers.)—A
great deal had been said respecting the conduct of the Roman Ca-
tholic Clergy at elections. Did any one in that House mean to
say that such interference was against any principle of the con-
stitntion ? He was always sorry to see the clergy taking part, in
any political question whatever, because it had the inevitable effect
of bringing some degree of disgrace or discredit on religion itself.
But if such an interference was bad on one side, it was as bad on
the other; but he did not think the charge in this respect bore so
heavily on the Roman Catholic as on the Protestant clergy. The
law which laid the Catholics under disabilities and restrictions of
itself, excited them to endeavour, by all meant in their power, to
procure an alteration of that law. The Protestant clergy, who
had nothing to complain of, had no such cause for interference.—
The practice, he was aware, had prevailed in many counties to a
great extent; but he knew, also, that a very considerable degree
of exaggeration had been used in representing the interference of
the clergy. Whatever the charge was, however it devolved, he
would not say as much on one side as on the other; because, on
the one side there was some excuse for it, and there was none on
the other.—(The Right Hon. Gentleman sat down amidst loud
and universal cheering.)
Mr. L. FOSTER was desirous to make some ob-
servations respecting the allusion which had been made to the

conduct of his noble relative, as connected with the most extra-
ordinary speech which had been just delivered. His Right Hon.
Friend had been particularly mistaken in two points—the first
in considering Lord •Farnham, for there was no reason why his
name should not be mentioned, as the author of that proceeding
which he called a crusade, and the second in believing it to be a
chimaera. These were both equally unfounded. He, (Mr.
Foster) wished to 'explain this affair in order to set the public
right with respect to the part which Lord Farnham had taken,
and he felt it the more incumbent to do so, because he was aware
that the country would soon be in possession of the present dis-
cussion, through the medium of the published debates, when one
of those extraordinary scenes which were going on in Ireland
and which might well be called the first page of a new history of
that country, would be laid before the public.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. J. GRATTAN thought that the principle of
fair play should be extended on both sides. The letter of J.K.L.
might be unwise and inflammatory, but he thought it could be
matched in violence of party feeling by a speech which was lately
delivered in Ireland by the Noble Lord whose motives had been
advocated by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman who last address-
ed the House. The Hon. Member read an extract from a news-
paper, of a speech purporting to be delivered by Lord Farnham,
at (we believe) a bible meeting in Ireland. The first sentence of
the extract was to this effect—that notwithstanding all the efforts
that bad lately been made in Ireland to spread the light of the
Gospel over that benighted land, so strongly had bigotry and su-
perstition taken root in the country, owing to the control of the
priests, that those efforts were likely to prove unavailing. The
Hon. Gentleman, after quoting another extract from the same
speech, said the Noble Lord imputed to the Catholics a desire to
subvert the established religion. The speech of the Noble Lord
was printed in London : if it was falsely ascribed to him, let' him
deny it, but let us not impute censure to others unless we were
free ourselves from blame.—( Hear, hear, hear.)
_

Sir G. HILL observed, that as the petitioners had
identified themselves .with tire Catholic Association, he did not
think that they were entitled to much attention.
Mr. F. LEWIS said, that the situation which the
petitioners held in the country was one of the first importance, and
he had no doubt but that the power which they possessed was used
fur good purposes. It was a power, however, which was greater
than it ought to be, because it was estranged from the law of the
land.—(Hear, hear.)-.--Would to. God that the causes of aniinosity
in Ireland were healed for ever, and that the distinction of sect
was no longer in existence.—(Hear.)—lt wassaid, that the Roman
Catholic Bishops had identified themselves with the Catholic Asso-
ciation, but he denied that they had done so. He looked upon
tke Catholic Association with no very favourable eyes, but its
origin and existence could be traced to the peculiar situation of Ire-
land. The,Association was the necessary consequence of the state in
which the Catholic's were placed. It was idle to think of crushing
the only medium by which the Catholics of Ireland could be heard:
They must have an organ to give expression to their wrongs.—
He believed that the Catholic Association acted on a mistaken
feeling with regard to the means which they took to effect their
object. They appeared to be in total error al to the nature of the
English people in supposing that by threats they could frighten
them into terms. It, was not, however, by menaces or intimida-
tion that the people of this country were to be gained over. He
denied that the Roman Catholic Bishops had ever identified them-
selves with the proceedings of the Catholic Association, in proof
of which he would give this as an instance of their disinclination
to act in conjunction with that body. It was well known that
the Catholic Association were at one time very desirous of ori-
ginating a Catholic system of education in Ireland, for which pur-
pose they wished to apply a part of their funds which they de-
rived from the rent. They applied to the Roman Catholic Bi-
shops to sanction the proceeding, but the Bishops declined giving
their consent, observing that they had already petitioned Parliament
for its sanction to a measure of the same nature, and that they
would act disrespectfally to the legislature if they did not await
its decision. They therefore declined having any thing to do
with the Catholic Association.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir G. HILL did not mean to infer that the Catholic
Bishops had identified themselves with the Catholic Association.
It was notorious, however, that the Catholic priesthood generally,
though perhaps not any of those individual petitions, were guilty
of meddling in matters beyond their province. (Hear, hear.)

Mr. V. HOMRIGH (Member for Drogheda) de
fended the Catholic Bishop Dr. Curtis from the charge of im
properly interfering in matters of state. There could not be a
more loyal Man' than Dr. Curtis, Wbo, in fact, owed his appoint-
ment to the good opinion of the Duke of Wellington, who brought
him from Salamanca. The Honourable Gentleman proceeded
further to observe, that at a dinner lately given by a distinguished
Nobleman at which Dr. Curtis was present, the memory of his
Royal Highness the Duke of York being proposed, Dr. Curtis
made a most eloquent speech, in which he eulogized the virtues of
the deceased Prince, and paid a high tribute to his memory. (Hear.)
Mr. PEEL before he came down to the House
had formed a resolution not to express any opinion on the subject
which was now under discussion. He should, therefore, cautiously
abstain from offering any remarks at present on a question that was
marked out for discussion on an early day. If no other alternative re-
mained, he should then state the same opinion he had formerly ex-
pressed with regard to this subject. If, therefore, he carefully ab-
stained from entering on topics that would soon be fully treated, he
hoped no one would suppose that on that account he felt less interest in
the question. He preferred, however, to reserve his opinions for
the occasion, when he could state them more at length than it
would be proper to do new. His object in rising was to present
two petitions. The first was a petition from the University of
Orford, which prayed that no further concessions might be made
to the Roman Catholics. The next petition which he should
have the honour to present was from the undersigned Protestant
Noblemen, Gentlemen, and Landed Proprietors of Ireland, and
if any petition was ever entitled to respect, it was this. He be-
lieved that there were no less than 1,200 signatures attached to
it.—(Hear, hear !)—When he stated that twenty-seven Irish
Peers had signed this petition, he might add that every man
whose name was attached to it was a resident land-owner. Not
feeling
eling :
sentence
no
acorweity
word in the petition could be traced to any hostile
of language was used. The petitioners
merely prayed for a continuance of the laws by which Roman
Catholics were excluded from power, and they proceeded to state
the grounds on which they conceived that continuance necessary.
He was grateful to them for having selected him as the organ to
make their wishes known to the Commons House of Parliament,
on this most important of all important subjects.
The petition was then laid on the table, and ordered to be
printed, as were also petitions with the same prayer, which
Mr. PEEL afterwards presented from the clergy of the diocess of
Louth, from the parish of St. Nicholas, Guildford ; from the
clergy of Manchester ; from the bishop and clergy of the diocese
of Cork and Ross; from the Protestant noblemen, gentry, and
freeholders, of the barony of Kilbarney, in the county of Tip-
perary ; from the barony of Bally-Collin, in the county of Lon-
donderry; and from the clergy of some deanery in the county of
Denbigh.
Lord NUGENT presented a petition from the
Catholics of Great Britain, praying to be relieved from the legal
disabilities under which they laboured at present. They prayed
for emancipation not only for themselves, but for every species of
Dissenters from the Established Church, who were liable to any
disqualifications on account of their religious tenets. He then
moved that the petition be brought up.
The petition was laid upon the table, and ordered to be printed,
n dthe of inter-
ference
their
exerting their spiritual authority to promote purposes which were
purely temporal.
as were similar petitions from Roscrea, and a parish in the county
of Galway, presented by Lord Nuoarr.
Mr. MOORE presented petitions against any fur-
ther concessions to the Catholics from several places in Ireland.
T he petition
of
from
he stated,
the Waterford,Catholic
clergy
in the lateelections,
Mr. V. STUART, wished-to ask the Ron. Mem-
berwheth
erhehad read the petition which he Was presenting
from Waterford?Mr. MOORE—Yes, I have.
Mr. V. STUART.—Has he read a sentence in it
in which the petitioners state that I am ready to go all lengths
for the Catholics ?
Mr. MOORE.—No, I have not.
Mr. V. STUART.—Has the Hon. Member
Ths SPEAKER interfered, and called Mr. Stuart to order.
The petition from Waterford was then read at length. It con-
tained no such sentence as Mr. Stuart anticipated.
Mr. V. STUART, when the proper time of dis-
cussion arrived, should know how to parry the attacks which
the petition made on the Catholic clergy.
Mr: R. POWER .stated, that the majority of the
Protestant populati ur of the county of Waterford was decidedly
in favour of Catholic emancipation.
The petitions were then ordered to he printed.
On the presentation of a similar petition from some place in the
county of Monaghan,
Mr. R. MARTIN rose to give a contradiction,
as respectful as it was possible for him to give it (a laugh), to the
Hon. Gentleman on the floor, who had said that the Roman Ca-
tholic clergy interfered with their spiritual authority, and coerced
the vote of the poorer freeholders at the late general election. It