The Sun.
London, England, 1845-05-27 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDA Y _EVENING, MAY 27, 1845.

Lord HOWICK remarked, that the promoters of Railway
Bills were at a loss to know how they were to get on, as many
of them despaired of getting their Bills through both Houses
this session. If the Government, as he hoped they would see
the propriety of doing so, would give an idea of their intentions
respecting those measures, a great benefit would accrue. Defi-
nite information as to the course Government intended to take
respecting Railway Bills that were unable to be carried
through both Houses this session, would remove a great deal
of difficulty.
Sir JOHN WALSH wished to know from the Right Hon.
Member for the City of London (Lord J. Russell) in regard
to the resolutions he meant to propose, whether it was his in-
tention to move them altogether or separately? He asked this
question, as the resolutions were quite distinct in the princi-
ples which they set forth.
Lord J. RUSSELL said the Hon. Gentleman had better
wait till the close of his speech.
Captain PECHELL said, that on Friday last he had put a
question to the Hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Treasury,
respecting the conveyance of the mail to the Scilly Islands,
and for copies of the correspondence which had passed between
Mr. Augustus Smith and the Post-office authorities. _

Air. CARDWELL answered that the papers were in the
hands of the printer.
In answer to Mr. MANGLES,
Lord JOCELYN replied that all the returns 'applied for
were in the hands of the printers.
AI R. O'DRISCOLL.

Mr. ROSS wished to know whether it was true what had
been stated about the conduct of Mr. O'Driicoll, a magistrate,
at a recent trial at Skibbereen. It was reported that that
gentleman had made use, on the bench, of the following ex-
pression—" By God, I don't understand these popularity.hunt-
ing magistrates." If that were true, the matter ought to be
inquired into, and taking also his general conduct into con-
sideration, it would be a question whether he ought to be suf-
fered to remain any longer on the bench.

Sir THOMAS FREMANTLE said he saw an account of
what the Hon. Gentleman had alluded to, in the public news-
papers. lie was not, however, prepared to give any oticial
information on the subject, but he would communicate with
the Lord Chancellor as to an inquiry into the matter.
Lord EBR[NGTON said that Hon. Gentlemen on his side
of the House were not inclined to dispute that Mr. O'Driseoll
had on a previous occasion been very properly dismissed. The
excuse which was then given for his dismissal was, that from
the infirmities of his age, and not of his temper, he was inca-
pable of continuing his duties. He thought that dismissal
ought to have taught him a lesson to preserve a better guard
over his temper.
Dr. BOWRING would wish to know whether the negotia-
tion that had been going on between the Post-office autho-
rities of this country and Sweden, that had been for some time
discontinued, had been renewed.

Mr. CARDWELL said he was not aware that any proposi-
tion had been made for renewing the correspondence.
INSANE CRIMINALS IN SCOTLAND.

Mr. ELLICE begged to call the attention of the Right Hon.
Baronet the Secretary of State for the Home Department, to
the case of a person who had lately been convicted of murder
in Scotland. It appeared that the man was found to be insane,
and was acquitted of the charge of murder on that account ; but
notwithstanding that, the unhappy man had been refused ad-
mittance into any lunatic asylum, and he was now in a state of
raging madness. The Hon. Member then read a letter he had
received, stating that the man was in a dying state yet there
was no accommodation for him in the prison in which he was
confined—namely, that of Cupar, in Fife.
Sir J. GRAHAM said he was aware that this was indeed
a melancholy case ; but, unfortunately, by the law of Scot-
land, the man could not be removed from Scotland. By the
same law, no public lunatic asylum could be compelled to take
him in, and no private one would. The man was at present in
prison, where he was to remain during the Queen's pleasure,
and could not be removed ; but all proper care should be taken
of him, and further than that he (Sir J. Graham) could not
interfere.

Mr. ELLICE could only state to the House what his in-
formant bad told to him. He said that there was a ward in
the first Penitentiary in which lunatics could be received.
Mr. ESCOTT wished to put a question to the Noble Lord
(Lord Jocelyn) in relation to a case which involved great in-
dividual hardship, as well as an important general question.
He wished to ask whether any Government return had been
received from Bombay, referring to the case of Lieutenant
Collins, who had been tried by a court-martial in that Presi-
dency, and illegally dismissed the service of the East India
Company—whether the Court of Directors and the Noble
Lord did not think that if this decision were illegal—if it were
unjust, full reparation might not be made to the individual who
had been so dismissed by this illegal sentence ?
Lord JOCELYN said that, by the last dispatches received
some weeks since, it was determined on that the case of
Lieutenant Collins should be reconsidered. The Government
had not since that time received any official information that
the subject had been so re-considered, and therefore he
was unable to satisfy the Hon. Member on the matter in
question.
Mr. COLLETT said that, before withdrawing his amend-
ment, he should wish to be assured that a House would be
made on Wednesday.—( Laughter, and " Oh, oh.") If he
were not so assured, he should press the House to a division.
Strangers were ordered to withdraw, but no division took
place, the original motion being carried.
Mr. CHAPMAN presented apetition against certain clauses
in tho Merchant Seamen's Act.

Mr. S. CRAWFORD presented a petition from Liverpool
on the subject of Lord John Russell's resolutions. The peti-
tioners stated that some of the resolutions were objectionable, in-
asmuch as they had no reference to the extension of the franchise.
He begged leave to present a petition, signed by three
thousand silk handloom weavers in Middleton and its vicinity,
expressing their great distress consequent upon the want of
a law to protect their labour; and also a petition from the Pro-
testant Association of Cork, praying the House to withdraw
all support to Maynooth College.
A petition was then presented from the Wesleyan Metho-
dists of the county of York, against the use of spirituous
liquors.

Mr. MILNER GIBSON presented a petition from the
working classes of Manchester, complaining of the want of
drainage and sewers, and praying for sanatory regulations.
Mr. FERRAND presented several petitions, having refe-
rence to the resolutions of Lord John Russell ; one from the
delegates of artisans in Nottingham, Derby, and Leicester,
complaining of the increase of machine power, by which many
of them were thrown out of bread ' • also calling the attention
of the House to the Fields Garden Bill, and praying for some
provision in it which would save them from dying in a union
workhouse. Also petitions from the inhabitants of Hartlepool,
who complained that they had been deprived of many of their
most valuable privileges, amongst others of votes in the election
of the Corporation.
CONDITION OF THE LABOURING CLASSES.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL then rose and said, Sir, I rise to
bring forward a motion of which I have given notice, and
which embraces a subject of vast extent, and one of the highest
importance. I would despair of being able to bring this
question on with any effect, were it not that the subject was one
which has occupied much of the public attention for some
years past ; and, in bringing it forward now, 1 look for the as-
sistance of this House, in the consideration and elucidation of
those facts and opinions which have been already elicited in re-
ference to it. For my own part, I do not profess to have suffi-
cient confidence in myself to be able to deal with this subject
of such great importance as it deserves ; but I perceive, that in
regard to it, the Government are not prepared to come forward
with any proposition ; that no other Member of this House has
taken it into consideration ; and that various views and
opinions have been expressed out of doors in regard to the mea-
sures that the Legislature should deem it proper to adopt, by
which to improve the condition of the labouring classes. Sir,
I do consider it a matter of great importance, that this House
should have before it not only all the information that could
be get in reference to any measure which may
be proposed to be adopted for the permanent im-
provement of the condition of the labouring classes, but also
whatever you may be able to learn from the expression of the
opinions of persons who have given their attention to the ques-
tion, and the views which they may have taken of the various
plans that may from time to time have been proposed for the
approbation of the public, because while, in my view, some of
those propositions may have appeared to be sound, others may
appear to have been based upon erroneous views of what
should be beneficial for the public interest ; and therefore, if
not taken up in a determined manner, a measure may be
brought before this House that would receive general acqui-
escence for want o f a better, or it may be that such a measure
would be presented, on which a negative could not be given
with satisfaction, or an affirmative with safety.—( Hear, hear.)
Sir, I must here say a few words more as to the intention of
this motion. Had 1 been of opinion that any such measure
would be brought forward by her Majesty's Government, I
would have taken care not to have done so ; but as things stand
at present, when all legislative means of this sort must
originate with the Government—when the present Adminis-
tration has taken from this House to itself all attempts at legis-
lation, even upon minor importance, and have declared, more-
over, that whether in office or out, they will be responsible for
all measures of legislation which they may pass, affecting the
condition of the country. Under these circumstances it would
have been idle of me to have taken upon myself to bring before
this House any measure of this sort. In my view the reso-
lutions which I bring forward are closely connected together.
I am of opinion that if the Government at the present moment
wished to propose a measure useful to the country, and tending
to the improvement of the condition of the people, they should
consider all the subjects which are mentioned in these reso-
lutions. An Hon. Baronet addressed to me a question to-night,
as if he considered that these resolutions were totally separate
and distinct questions. Sir, I think it of importance that the
House should have brought before it the whole of this subject,
not only that they may consider any one measure in it which
improving
the may think proper to adept for the purpose of
the condition of the labouring classes, but also that we may
learn, from the opportunity thus afforded, the opinions of men
of experience and weight as to the various plans which have
been from time to time proposed for the acceptation of Parlia-
ment. Whilst, in my opinion, some of those views are per-
fectly sound, and would tend to improve the condition of the
country, there are others which are founded on erroneous
principles. Upon mistaken notions of the powers of the Legis-
lature to promote the happiness of the people, and which, if in-
dulged in, would lead to consequences entirely different from
those anticipated ; my opinion in general is, that you should
endeavour to free trade from restrictions—to relieve industry
from those trammels which were chiefly placed on it by the
Legislature, but that in so doing, owing to the legislation of
the past, and owing to the present state of the country, it
would be necessary to adopt other measures accompanying those
measures for the relief of industry. And at the same time, it
is my opinion that the great subject of education and instruc-
tion ought to form a part of the deliberations of Government,
and of the measures brought before the House; and if any gen-
tleman tells me that this subject seems little connected with
those that I have mentioned in these resolutions, and that they
are separate and distinct, I beg leave to tell him why I differ from
him. I think we cannot expect that any measure proposed for
the general education of the people would be attended with
success unless we improve the physical condition of the people.
—( Hear.) hay, Sir, that I do not think that men struggling to
obtain the subsistence necessary to support life, are able or
willing to make those exertions which would be requisite for
giving an education to their children. Therefore, generally
speaking. I should say that, along. with the measure for the
improvement of education—assuming that to be your object—
you should endeavour to improve the physical condition of the
people. —( Hear, hear.) And, to bring this matter into de-
tail, I hold in my hand a paper that was signed by Mr. Ash-
worth in 1840, in which is given a table, showing the earnings
and expenditure of four different families, each consisting of a
man, his wife, and four children. In the first, the weekly
earnings were ss. 6d. ; in the second, 10s. 6d.; in the third,
15s. 6d. ; in the fourth, 265. 6d. In the first case, where the
earnings were only lie. 6d., it would be found that the greater
part, in fact nearly the whole of that sum, was consumed in
providing bread, flour, oatmeal, and potatoes for these six in-
dividuals—food which was absolutely necessary for their sub-
sistence. If I look at the second case, where the earnings
are 10s. 6d., I find money expended for soap and candles,
clothing, and some further expenditure for other matters
which afford revenue to the State. If I turn to the third case,
where the earnings are 15s. 6d., I find a consumption of tea
and coffee, contributions towards a sick society, thereby show-
ing a certain degree of prudence and forethought. And when
I come to the fourth instance, where the earnings are 265. 6d.
for six persons, I there find a further sum of 2s.
for clothing, 6d. for education, 6d. for a sick society,
and ls. 4d. for savings.—( Hear, hear.) These details show,
as appears to me, that it is only when the condition of the
labouring classes is comfortable, that you can expect prudence,
at least, the ability which enables them to follow out the die.
tates of prudence, and the means of obtaining education for

' their children.—( Hear, hear.) Therefore, I say at once,
that if any person tells me that he thinks the subject of the
condition and subsistence of the people unconnected with their
education and instruction, my answer is—that so far from their
being unconnected, they cannot be separated, and that you
cannot take a general and comprehensive view of the situation
of the people without taking within that view both means for
their physical comfort, lord means for their religious, moral,
and literary instruction.— (Cheers. ) In looking at the con-
dition of the people, I do not wish to go over details which
must be familiar to most Members of this House, with respect
to the wages on which a great portion of the people of this
country subsist. It is well known that, in many counties in
England—in many of the agricultural counties—the
wages are not more than 7s. or Bs. a week. That has been
stated repeatedly, and when I asked gentlemen connected with
these counties whether that is so—whether such was the
amount cf wages the labourers earned—they answered that
undoubtedly such was the fact—such is the condition of the
labouring classes in these counties.--( Hear, hear.) Now, Sir,
if that be a fact, I need not say what privations it implies—
what evil it signifies—and what an insufficient means of pro-
viding for the comfort of the labourers. Neither need Igo
into details, in order to show that the dwellings of the labourers
in many of the counties are totally insufficient for their ac-
commodation—that families are crowded together without any
regard to the rules of decency—that many members of a
family are obliged to sleep in the same room—and that
neither health nor comfort is consulted in the struggle which
becomes necessary, in order to retain a room for which
they can afford to pay.—(Cries of " Hear, hear.") But,
Sir, there are general considerations which, it appears to me,
we ought to take into account, and which involve a retro-
spect for a very considerable period of time. lam now, there-
fore, going to trace the changes which took place in a long
course of years ; going back to periods of the last century be-
fore the French Revolution. At that time we had a debt
of about 250,000,0001., and between 14,000,000/. and
15,000,000/. was the sum then necessary for the interest of
rtahtaet
admebotunattng and ottohelr2e,sxoope,nosooes.l., There was then a
pay-
inpoor-
rate
the allowance to labourers out oafn
altogether unknown to this country. In the course of the war
thed the
poor-rate,
o o practicer-rat,e,
eras o
tbenwhich England carried on in 1793, various changes took place
—ehanges, in my opinion, much for the worse, as regards the
situation of the people—changes, the effects of which, I think,
we are still suffering under, and which have, from time
to time, been brought under the notice of this House.
In the first place, we have an immense increase
of our debt, and a proportionate increase of our taxation.
That increase of debt was,
in my mind, made in the most ex-
travagant manner. Many of the loans were contracted in such a
manner that more than 6 per rent. was paid for interest, and
that not reducible, but remaining to the future. Sums were
borrowed in the Three per Cents., as in 1797, when 2001. was
given, besides other advantages, to the lender of 100/. So
that it appeared, by the table at the end of Mr, M'Culloch's
late work on taxation (the last edition), that the sum of
400,000,000/., which we borrowed during the war, entailed
upon us the interest of a debt of more than 21,000,0001.—thus
obliging us to pay more than 5 per cent. interest. When' in
the beginning of the last century, debts were contracted in
times of war, the interest which was necessarily engaged to be
paid at the time and subsequently was capable of reduction,
so that Sir Robert Walpole (during the long peace, begun in
1713), during his administration, was able to reduce the
interest on the debt, by about half the total of the
amount which it was at the end of the war. That course has
not been possible with any Ministry of this country, considering
the mode in which the debt of the last war was contracted.
We have, therefore, in considering the taxation, to recollect
that the payment of the interest on this debt is guaranteed by
public faith, and that it is out of our power to alter it. The
whole amount to which we could alter the expenditure consists
between the amplest and the most narrow expenditure consist-
ent with a peace establishment, which is about 3,000,000/.
( Hear.) At the same time. in speaking of the subject of taxa-
tion, I think I should not omit to state that we have been able
from time to time to abolish or diminish taxes which were laid
on the necessaries of life ; such as the tax on leather, salt, and
candles, which have been entirely done away with. If any one
will look at the complaints of the weight of taxation
in the last century, they will see that tax (the
interest of the debt) pointed out as a tax most
injurious to the interests of the country. Still the power
which we have in one way or another, whether by direct or
indirect taxation, to bear this great amount of interest for the
debt was an obligation from which we could not escape, and
any one who examines the proposal made by the Right Hon.
Baronet at the head of the Government this year for this com-
mutation of taxation—a relief of taxation by taking it from
those things upon which it presses with the greatest severity
and imposing it on those things which he and the House con-
sidered would be less felt—a change by which it was believed
taxation would press less heavily on the industry and resources
of the country. Another subject upon which great alterations
have been made is that of currency. alluding to which the
Right Hen. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) last year called it the fatal
measure of 1797. The tendency of that measure was greatly
to degrade the labouring classes.—(Hear' hear.)
I say, the tendency of that measure went to diminish the wages
of labour. These wages were neither increased in proportion
to the rise which took place, nor to the rise which occurred in
the value of money. At the same time that depression of the
general currency of the country led to effects which such de-
pression has always produced—that extravagant mode of living
—that sudden employment of high profits--that neglect of
frugality and vigilance which those engaged in agriculture or
in trade practise in ordinary times, and which neglect and
exitement produce lasting evils in the country. Ido not see
that in this respect we can make any great change in the con-
dition of the labourer—at loot to his advantage. I believe
that the measure proposed by the Right Hon. Gentleman in
1819, and the Bill proposed last year, are founded on sound
principles, an d w
tothe
discussing
particular
tmwhatie
iwasn whichtheir necessitythey
o werer
theiradaptation
brought forward, I believe it would be the greatest misfor-
tune if the House would endeavour to depart materially from
the principles sanctioned by these measures. At the same
time I think we must always remember that these measures in
themselves produce their evils—that they have disadvantages
accompanying them—that they produced a contracted cur-
rency which followed the measure of 1819, and at the time
created great evils, amongst others injury to the industrious
classes which lasted fur a considerable time. But now, Sir, I
come to another subject upon which I think Parliament may
legislate, and with benefit—to overturn as they have
the enormous currency legislation of the war period—l alludef
to the policy of restriction and monopoly. If any one speaks of
that policy—of the policy of monopoly and restriction, or, as ie
is flatteringly termed, " protection to native industry," he
speaks of it as of an ancient establishment, as a matter becom_
interwoven with the laws of the country, and therefore ex
tremely difficult to touch. But, Sir, let us go a little further,
and look at what has been actually the case. We shall find that
the chief monopoly or restriction which now exists was intro-
duced by men who are still living—by persons who are still in
Parliament—by those who, although not now in the direction
of public affairs, still remain among us, and whose acts we must
therefore consider as the acts of our own time. I allude to the
system of restriction and monopoly, which was, in the time of
Adam Smith, called the mercantile system ; and Adam Smith,
in speaking of the restriction introduced by the corn-laws, says
he believes that those restrictions in favour of the monopoly
of particular trades were introduced by persons who
were used to the narrow spirit of corporations—that from cor-
porations it became common to traders, and was by them
adopted in the Legislature of the country—that the country
gentlemen, whose nature was, generally speaking, generous,
and alien to such partial restrictions were induced to adopt
this policy, of little value to them, but supposed to be bene-
ficial, because it was so considered by the manufacturer and the
merchant. Adam Smith might be, and no doubt was, relating
what was conformable to the experience of his own time, but
the experience of our time has brought us to an entirely dif-
ferent state.—( Hear, hear, from the Opposition.) We have
a vast export of manufactures, amounting, perhaps, to
50,000,0001. ; our manufacturers sell their goods at all the
markets of the world ; but they consider monopoly and re-
striction is of no use to them, and they are willing to admit
the imports of every country on the same terms as they desire
their own to be received in foreign countries.—( Hear.) They
therefore, have adopted generally, with a few exceptions, the
theory which Adam Smith and his followers proposed, and
which all the political economists adopted—that restriction is
mischievous—that it is unwise to favour one class at the ex-
pense of another, and that such policy is injurious to the
labouring classes, above all the classes in the community.
Well, Sir, if such be the case, let us look at the history of some
of those restrictions. I will look at one which has relation
to timber. ( The Noble Lord then quoted extracts from
M'Culloch's Commercial Dictionary, and other books, to show
that with a restrictive policy our imports of timber had been
greatly diminished, and that trade had been thereby
seriously injured, and the same argument appliede
to wool, against restrictions upon which, tb
merchants of London petitioned the Legislature in 1828.)
The present Earl Fitawilliam had said such a course
.woueldsabe
total ruin to the manufacturer in the proposed me
loausl dY
going back to barbarism. Sir Mathew Ridleyassnarted,ahacnodmrn.
d that _ _
the other House the Duke of Richmond propose
11 n aged in
emointsteeidesrhedoutlhdabtetharsposiynsttedemtoof ionnquiyiriedi.npteorthpe
umnadttde_rn.ty
cause the entire destruction of the interests
alarming.oof
ahhigh
import the
i%fa
hntrade. r y Iwnasthe
chairman,
wastho
statedCo of
was weab :ere great Lord
Such was the view that those gentlemen entertained
de-
ficiency in the import of 'foreign wool which
the benefit which
import 'duty on foreign wool. From
many
yrabalrte
articles
but foreign wool
of English manufacture into which nothing
the last year the dnty had
re-
sulted
foreignt to the
owool
Englishshooldhew wool-grower, -g r
admitted,o w er ,foirt
therew ashwi gehrley
could be introduced. In the course of mtiht teeree of
off, and
• the whole duty had been taken
Member for Halifax
the result had been a much greater consumption of wool.
The woollen manufactures exported during the first eight
been increased, but on the motion of his 110 n. Friend the
wu!trulY
months of this year greatly exceeded the quantity exported
for his articles. I mention this as one of many instances of
the beneficial effects arising from theofabtoleition of high duties
last year, and the British wool grower obtained a better price
proposition which
which
that those laws which
I am desirous of maintaining,
labour would impose on the people operated in restricting
of late years, and it is an instance
un-
necessary taxes. I think that
impossible to general
propositionh
prin-
ciples cannot be disputed. It
is
what the e"'
that
a duty caused a higher price on people wanted to
buy it necessarily imposed
nty
poorable a duty A on their labour. If they
imposed those duties the
man was less to purchase
children, and
clothes and food, and to educate his
is was most
likely to be dissatisfied with his condition. There an opinion
a considerable party • this
which is still prevalent among
to give protectiont
country who maintain that it isright o certain
protect the industry
articles, and that it is right to p
d it Is contendedthat all re-
On the other hand, country.
should be
abolished. I think
strictions of a protective nature
of these opinions should
it necessary that one or the otherrVansittart in the expressionbe
acted on, or let us imitateould.
given to every branch
ofi o
his policy that protection should
s false and unsound. For in-
dustry, or abandon the principle a my
own part, I hold it as
false and unsound. I should be sorry to
as it has been proved
enter into an argument on the subject,
subiect ; and it is, so
by the greatest writers on the . moreover,
question, Parliament a matter on which, as an abstract _ has no
not think Parliament should say you
right to interfere. Ido
market, any more than they should
must go to the cheapest
ought to be i
tell you to go to the dearest; but every mann
a condition to go to that market which he liked best—( Hear,
any obstacle to prevent him, let the
hear)—and, if there was t was his wish to exchange his
Legislature interfere ; but it
market for the advantage labour or his productions in any
had the Legislatureage of
what business to himself and family,
not
in-
terfere and say you shall .
make that exchange—you shall
and
in a foreign country make that
not go to any person
dis of th produce of
e
exchange—you
pose
you ple
your own labour in
what wa)
which is perfectly unsound in ase ? But this
is not only an abstract theory,
itself, but it is opposed to the common sense of mankind ; and
it is a theory on which many
mistakes have arisen. The
a
Ministry, in 1842, proposed great alteration on the subject.
immediately connected
s
They were alterations in many a
with the produee of the manual labourers of this country. But
differentmanner, with
then, alterations were made in a totallyndwith h
respect to some of these persons,
offendeda at theregardtooetx
extent
There were many persons greatlygreat
to which they carried their rneastire& I, myself, as a Member
who were in
of many individuals
for the City of London, knew .
r trade being reduced. There
a frenzy at the prospect of the'
were the rope-makers, who said athtte ro Imade
es wou d e
upon the raw materialb. Ther
in Russia, if a low duty were put
who were all
were the corkeutters, the boot and shoemakers, _
much inflamed at the free-trade plans introduced by the
There were
Right Honourable Baronet. men who were
, _
averaffulg Irons J 55. to 255. per
earning a certain amount,

• woes, and who were therefore in a state of affluence and wealth
One of them told me he was skilled as much as any man in the
trade, but with all his exertions he was only able to provide him-
self with meat for dinner during one day in the week. Such
was the case of the persons affected by the measure that had
been introduced. I will say, that to introduce changes among
these men was hardly fair, unless you introduced measures of a
corresponding nature among the members of another class,
who were represented by Peers of noble descent, covered with
honours, having great weight both in and out of Parliament,
and who were most powerful to resist the alteration. I have the
opinion of Adam Smith as my authority, who stated that he
would include one party within the same law of restriction as
the other. The Right Hon. Gentleman, the late President of
the Board of Trade, has shown the effect of these restrictions,
as far as our own manufactures were concerned ; and I will
take out of his book some instances, which will show how
little alarm was to be experienced, when it was most expected.
The article of bonnets produced 13,0001. in 1840, and in 1843
and 1844 this amount was reduced to 12,000/. With respect
to cork, a duty of 7s. per pound had been imposed on manu-
factured corks. The duty was reduced to 10s. per pound on
the wood, and to Is. per pound on the manufactured
corks. The amount of cork had been augmented, and
only 2i per cent., in proportion to the raw ma-
terial, was introduced in a manufactured state. The
Noble Lord instanced a few other articles, which, where
the duty was high, bad been diminished in consumption ;
and where, on the contrary, the duty was small, a corres-
ponding increase had taken place. These returns, continued
the Noble Lcrd, show how very little reason there was for
the manufacturers to be alarmed at the changes which then
took place. This showed with respect to all manufactured
articles, that we were able to stand in competition with foreign
nations, and that nothing was to be dreaded from the skill
which foreign manufacturers might exhibit in their fabrication.
With respect to foreign manufactures, the duties had been re-
duced to a great extent. The bootmakers and ropemakers were
not much considered when it was announced that they would be
totally ruined. The right principle remained to be proved. The
duties were reduced within that reasonable compass that com-
petition could enter the field against thorn. I say, then, if this
principle is right-if it is right to reduce duties within that
compass-let us abandon altogether the principle of the pro-
tective system, and reduce all duties within that compass. In
acting upon this principle with respect to any article of manu-
facture, if you do not propose to abolish protection with re-
spect to one article, you will be in a similar position to what
you were placed in with regard to the tariff of 1842. If that
tariff imposes a duty of 20 per cent. I maintain that it is an
extravagant tax. I consider that the principle is altogether
false, and we should abandon it as a useless problem of legisla-
tion. I now come to that great question upon which so much
discussion has taken place in the country-I refer to the ques •
tion of the corn-laws. As I have adverted on this and other
subjects-on the striking changes that had taken place during
this session of Parliament-I will advert to what has been the
policy of the country with respect to them during the last cen-
tury. There was, as Adam Smith says, a duty in the last cen-
tury against the importation of foreign corn ; but, as during
the gi eater part of that century this was an exporting country,
the people had no great advantage of the lowest price of corn,
as the corn sent to foreign parts found the best market ; but
towards the latter end of the century, oith the increase of the
population, it was found necessary to prohibit that exportation.
If they had acted on sounder principles that course would not
have been adopted. When we became an importing instead of
an exporting country, it was considered necessary that the corn.
laws should be revised, and to preserveour interests a reasonable
protection should be given to cern. The protection given ex-
tended to 48s. per quarter, and consisted of a high duty upon all
corn under that price. In 1791 another change took place, and
Mr. Pitt said, in the course of the debate on the question, that
if a protective duty was put on corn up to 50s. per quarter, it
would be quite sufficient; but other opinions prevailed at the
time, and the protection was carried up to 545. It was over
505., and that was in effect a prohibitory duty. Such a duty
as this is quite different from the present system, and let us sae
how the change took place. During the time of war and the
years of scarcity, corn rose to a very high price, and at the
same time the currency becoming depreciated, the City gentle-
men declared that the 545. was not a sufficient price for corn,
and they prevailed on Mr. Pitt, in 1804, to raise the price at
which protection should cease. In 1815, when depreciation
was carried to its greatest extent, it was proposed that instead
of 545., which was the utmost price to which protection was
extended, that 80s. should be the price at which protection
should commence. I consider that although it might be ne-
cessary to check for a time the sudden flood of importation, the
introduction of that law was as fatal as the measure of 1797.
-(Hear.) We have been suffering ever since from the
effects of that law. Many years it was considered that this
law was not sufficient. The effect of the price of 80s. was
net liked, and another alteration of the whole took place,
which it was not neceasary to refer to, in 1828, and another
scheme of corn legislation was proposed, which had the high
authority of Mr. Huskismon. The proposition was, that there
should be a high duty imposed when corn was low, but the
duty was to be gradually diminished in proportion as the price
was increased. I thought it was somewhat desirable on that
head. Mr. Canning said, on the introduction of the measure,
that at certain times there was a too plentiful supply of corn,
and at other times we had been suffering from the want o
importation, and he proposed this measure, as it would adapt
itself to the price of corn, and tend to give a stated price, and
would consult the interest of all parties concerned. I say that
it was a plausible scheme ; and for my own part I supported
the Bill ; and altogether my opinion was rather in
favour of the fixed price. We have had experience since
and I think it has been shown that the system was founded in
error, and that it failed in giving a stated price. Even sup-
posing the general principle is correct, or that there are some
particular reasons for imposing duties upon corn, it was very
evident that the gradual or sliding scale was not calculated to
have the desired effect. It was obvious that the present sys-
tem, as now carried on in corn, made the entire trade to par-
take more of the character of a gambling house than the fair
dealings of honest merchants, and some had suffered severe
losses in their speculations ; and we had experience of this
fact within the last few years. According to the returns
moved for by the Hon. Member for Bristol (Mr. Miles), it
appears that the operation of the law, as altered by the Right
Hon. Baronet at the head of her Majesty's Government, is
much the same as the law of 1828. It was shown by those
papers that since 1840 as before, the quantity of corn
introduced was greatly increased at different times,
especially during the three harvest months. In the
year 1840 the number of quarters of wheat introduced in
the first six months of the year was 876,879 quarters, the
quantity during the three harvest months wrs 1,587,000. In
15,41, during the first six months, which was a year of scarcity,
2,750,969 quarters ; the three harvest months 2,343,258. In
1842 in the first six months 305,000; in the three harvest
months 2,663,160. Thus showing that the tendency of the
law was to induce speculators to hold back till they knew the
produce of the harvest, in order to derive a benefit from the
great rise in price. In the last year the experience of the law
was remarkable. In the last year the price of corn was not
high, sufficiently high enough to epable persons to introduce
it into the country in any large amount at remu-
nerating prices. In February the price of wheat
was 535. 3d. per quarter, and the quantity cleared, 2,725
quarters; in March, 565. 3d., the quantity cleared, 3,472
quarters ; and in July, 545., the quantity cleared, 427,623
quarters. The only system that can benefit the consumer, and
lead to a stability in the law, will be such as will range the
price from 565. to 64e. and 665, per quarter. That is the
only sufficient price to allow for the importation of corn, but
less than that will stop and arrest it. I have the evidence of
an assistant poor-law commissioner, who, in a report made at
the time of the bad harvest, in 1838, declares that the distress
then existing was much aggravated by the high price of the
corn, and that a lower rate of price, instead of operating in-
juriously, would have much benefited the employers, in
enabling there to improve the wages and living of their
labourers, or inducing farmers to employ greater exertions
in the cultivation of their lands. This report, in addition to
the other evidence I have adduced, goes to prove that the pre-
sent law is opposed not only to all correct commercial prin-
ciples, but to the interests of the farmers.-(Cheers.) But
I will put another question to the House. Does not this evi-
dence suggest to you that protection is an evil? Does it not
lead you to behold in it a check to improvement in agricul-
ture, and an enemy to both landowners and farmers__
(Cheers.) I may refer to the silk manufacture as an illustra-
tion of the influence of monopoly. While under the protec-
tive system during a century and a-half the machinery em-
ployed was of the most inefficient and imperfect character ;
now, under an improved system, it had kept pace in this
respect with all the other great branches of manufacturing
industry. So is it with respect to the farmer. The amount
of protection given him only tended to make him
an imperfect, slovenly agriculturist, and the way to make him
skilful and successful in his important calling was by the re-
moval of that restrictive system on which he had hitherto leant
for support. I hold in my hand the evidence of a gentleman
who made a motion in this House in 1830 respecting the sta-
tistics of the country. That gentleman was Mr. Davenport,
who said that he had taken great pains to improve the land in
his possession, and out of a quantity of land that formerly paid
500/. a year, he received 8001., in consequence of these im-
provements. That gentleman further stated that a great part
of England was covered with weeds, and in a state of waste ;
that the leases were fenced in with restrietions, and bolts, and
bars, so as to interfere with the free energy of the tenants;
that the land was generally occupied by tenants without capital ;
men careless how they treated the soil, and the landowners
were indifferent so long as they got their rents.-(Hear, hear. )
To advance agriculture in the way it ought to be advanced,
a union of capital, skill, and labour, is required. Such has
been already done in manufactures, and the results were well
known to all, so will it be in farming, if the same means are
employed. Similar causes will produce similar results. No
one can doubt but that if foreign growers were allowed to send
their produce into this country, it would infuse a new spirit
into our agricultural system. It will sharpen our skill and
energy, and enlarge our capabilities.-(Cheers.) The present
time is most propitious for a change in the system. The
commutation of tithes had lately taken place, and a
considerable burden taken from off the landed interest, so that
now there was every opportunity under a proper state of the
law for the employment of capital and the exercise of skill.-
( Hear, hear.) It was complained that owners and occupiers
of land were not satisfied with the present system. But let
them abandon protection, and they would find their benefit in
the improved markets which would be opened up to them.
They would find their advantage of being in a rich country,
where commerce and manufactures were flourishing, and where
employers being enabled to pay better wages for labour, from the
improved facilities given them, would thereby cause a great
increase in the consumption of agricultural produce.-( Hear. )
But it was said that if corn were made cheap, wages would be
reduced. Taking this fact for granted, supposing wages were
reduced to a certain amount, still so long as the real wages
were not reduced in relation to the price of produce, an advan-
tage would be gained by the great impetus that would be given
to the employment of labour by the change in the law. But
if, on the ether hand, wages were not reduced, a great benefit
would at once be given to the artisan in enabling him to com-
mand an increase of the comforts of life; and in either way
the labouring classes would be benefited. The Noble Lord the
President of the Board of Trade had said that the introduction
of 50,000 head of cattle was a great benefit to the country. If
this be so, then I cannot see any distinction between the impor-
tation of 50,000 head of cattle, and a million quarters of corn.
We do not find that when the price of corn is high, wages
correspond with it, as many of the operative classes believe.
A Mr. Dent, who had written on the subject, amongst much
that was. theoretical and speculative, has given a table
of wages in relation to the price of corn, from which I shall
read a few extracts to the House. The calculations were
made from 1792, and grounded upon a similar estimate to that
made by Mr. Malthus, of allowing six pecks of wheat for each
labourer. In 1795 the wages of a labourer were Bs. 6d. a-week,
and the price of bread 82s. 3d. per quarter. In 1801 wages
were from Bs. 6d. to 10.5.: price of wheat 118 s. 3d. In 1821
wages were 9s. 6d., price of wheat 535. 6d., being only 6d.
less in wages than the highest average in 1821. In 1834
were 10s., and wheat 465. 2d. In 1840 wages were
wages
i-.and wheat 665. 4d. ; and in 1841 wages were 10s. This
will show that the high price of grain is not
accompanied by a corresponding high rate of wages. I will
now proceed to show the probable effects of the importation of
foreign corn. It is my belief that it will not lead to such an
excess, of importation as many think, and that although the
price of corn may not be so high as it has hitherto been, it
will lead to a general improvement in the cultivation of the
laud, improve the demand for labour, and advance the inte-
rests of all parties concerned. With regard to what should be
adopted instead of the present law, various propositions have
been brought forward before the House. In bringing forward
my resoluti ma my object is not so much to propose a remedy
as to state the true condition of the country. But if I
were called upon to propose one, it would not be that which I

proposed in 1840. Yet still it would be a fixed dniy: In
1840 I proposed a fixed duty of Bs. per quarter. That is MO'll
than I would now propose. I would prefer at present 45., 55.,
or 6s. per quarter, as preferable to what I then proposed, and
as better, in the present state of affairs, than a total repeal of
the whole duty as some other parties proposed. Another pro-
position is to impose a sliding duty of 10s. or Bs. gradually
going down to a shilling. Now in comparing these two pro-
positions my opinion is decidedly in favour of a fixed duty,
because I consider a sliding scale necessarily entails a change
in. the amount of duty and of price every year.—( Hear, hear. )
It I were asked whether I consider it desirable to have any
duty on corn at all t should say, as an abstract principle, No;
but I know the ii,jury likely to accrue from the sudden with-
drawal of any long established custom, however pernicious
that custom may have been. It may be said, " If you regard it as
an evil, why will you not consent to its removal?" But thus
it might also be inquired respecting a man who, during a pro-
tracted life, has been accustomed to stimulating diet ; no phy
sician would advise an immediate change of diet, or prescribe
the total abstinence from the regimen, however deleterious.
It is in this light that I regard the present restrictions Imposed
on corn, and yet that there will come a time, as has already
arrived for wool, when a total abrogation of duty will be found
inevitable and accorded, I for one entertain no doubt; mean-
while, though I look upon such a course at the present time as
premature, and its success equivocal, I think 1 do but consult
the best interests of the country in proposing that clause
of my resolutions .—" That this House will take the
said laws into consideration, with a view to such
cautious and deliberate arrangement as may be most
beneficial to all classes of her Majesty's subjects."
now arrive at the next question which I consider materially
affecting the condition of the labouring classes of this country,
and, in the words of my motion, I assert " that the freedom of
industry would be promoted by a careful revision of the law of
vroetual settlement which now prevails in England and Wales "
During the war the system whereby the labourer was assisted
in his poverty, or remunerated for his work, was most perni-
cious ; as the war continued the price of corn rose, and the
course pursued was to distribute the effects of the high price
over the entire family, instead of increasing the wages, and
thus more labour was employed than there was demand for. In
1834 that system was altered, and it has been said that the al-
teration was injurious, but I will avow my opinion, that if that
system had been continued, the labourers of England would
have been reduced to pauperism, while the forced and com-
pulsory charity of the poor•rate would have scarcely given them
the means of subsistence, instead of as under the
present system, charity being given in the whole-
some shape of wages under the superintendence of
employers. I will again allude to an authority from which I
have more than once quoted to-night. In a report drawn up
by Mr. Tuffnell, respecting the working of the poor-law in
Kent, with which he was long officially connected, I find that
the amount of wages paid in that neighbourhood, during the
two years preceding the establishment of the union there,
was 6951., and fur the two years succeeding, 8101. If such
has been the wholesome effect of the poor-laws, is it not a
false misrepresentation to hold up that law as injurious to the
labourer, while in reality nothing could be more beneficial ?
( Hear, hear.) It is now a little more than ten years since
that law, as amended, came into operation. The children
who were then in a state requiring no immediate employ-
ment have now grown up—they seek for labour, but unfor-
tunately that artificial state of labour which characterised our
industrial population a few years ago, still indicts its disas-
trious consequences en our agriculture, our manufactures, and
our commerce. You have matte alterations, but it is not suffi-
cient to have altered your poor-laws, it is not sufficient that you
now standby the principles of that law; temporary and alleviating
measures must be sought, must be adopted, to meet the exigen-
cies of superabundant labour.—( Hear.) The Right Hon.
Gentleman opposite, the Secretary of State for the Home De-
partment, has undertaken to introduce a measure, admitting
the proposition that it was a hardship that a man could not
transfer his labour to a locality where demand was greater ;
but, while assenting to this, he does not agree or propose that
five years' industrious employment should give a settlement ;
yet what can be more rational, more equitable, more just ?
( Hear, hear.) And what is the working, or the effect of the
working of the present law of settlement ? A young man mar-
ries from the agricultural districts, he settles as an artizan at
some manufacturing town, gives the district the benefit of his
skill, but after ten or twelve years of thriving industry, by
some sudden panic in trade, he is deprived of work—he seeks
the means of temporary subsistence from the Union, but is
told, " You must go back to the town whence you originally
migrated, and seek that relief we cannot afford you here."
That such a system is fraught with evils no one can surely
doubt.
Colonel WOOD.—Hear, hear.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL—The Hon. Member for Brecon
cheers that expression. He proposes that one year's residence
should give a settlement ; I, however, do not think that a less
period than five years would be advisable to establish as a rule.
With regard to lesser periods of two or one years, if a relief
for temporary distress were required, it might be beneficially
accorded for a few months, even should net the applicant be of
long residence in the town, because a great hardship is fre-
quently entailed on a poor man engaged as an artisan,
suddenly and but temporarily distressed, being sent back to
his former place of residence, where, losing all employment or
prospect of employment, he becomes a pauper, and eventually
losing all moral elevation of character, ceases for ever to be,
what under due care he might still have remained—a good and
useful member of society.—( Hear, hear.) I now pass to the
next branch of my series of resolutions—" That a systematic
plan of colonisation would partly relieve those districts of the
country where the deficiency of employment has been
most injurious to the labourers in husbandry." In adverting
to this question, difficult and delicate as I admit it to be,
I have made my allusion cautiously, because I conceive that a
system of emigration too extensive, or compulsory, would not
only be unadvisable, but dangerous. Nevertheless I consider
that a voluntary system, carried out with caution and benevo-
lence, may, be made beneficial to the country and the emi-
grants. I have been told by Mr. Hedges, who for many
years represented the county of Kent in this House, that the
effect in his parish, of voluntary emigration, has been produc-
tive of the greatest advantage to the district, and by intelli-
gence he has received from the colonies, of happiness to the
parties who embraced it. The price for labour in Canada was
2s. 6d. a day, and in West Canada Sc. and upwards. When
men can thus go to a country whose inhabitants speak the
same language, and are characterised by the same habits, the
emigration is positively advantageous to them. But great care
is required in the safe working of this system ; for you must
not send out as emigrants men who are unable to bear extreme
labour, and the privations to which they are too often subject ; nor
must your system be that of indiscriminate assimilation between
parties hitherto unknown. They should go out, not only ac-
quainted, but connected with each other. In the army and
navy you give those officers who choose to accept the offer
Your Crown lands en certain favourable terms. Let your emi-
grants proceed out under those as a head, and by that arrange-
ment, and in such a transaction all parties wi:l be the gainers.
They will accept your home manufactures, and send you their
produce in return.—( Hear, hem ) The next question to
whick I shall advert is, the important one of education. I will
net now enter at length into a subject connected with such
vast interests, and which demands such anxious and protracted
consideration. That a great advance has been made in the
education of the people during these last few years no one can
entertain a doubt. Previous to that it was considered that
education was general and useful, but an inquiry
into its naturc proved it nominal, and not the
moral, religious instruction which would tend to elevate
the character and improve the social condition of the people. I
find in a late report of the British and Foreign School Society,
in reference to the gaol returns, that in some counties one.
third of the population was unable to read • in Devon, out of 61
only four could either read or write, in Denbighshire one-half,
and in other counties the population was even less. Now,
Sir, these are statements made in regard to counties in Eng-
land, but it may be said that although these prisoners are un-
able to read, yet religious' instruction has been given to them.
It may be said that they have received such oral communica-
tions from clergymen in the gaols, and other ministers of the
Gospel, from friends, and from neighbours, that they cannot be
said to be in a state of ignorance ; and, I must confess, that I
can understand those, among whom reading and writing may
not be prevalent, yet who, if such pains were taken to teach them
religious and moral truths, might, in point of learning,
be said to be a far from uninstructed people. What, I may ask
the House, was the case in Sussex, some short time ago? I
find, in the same return 1 have already quoted, that out of 171
persons, 141 did not know the Saviour's name • 24 knew his
name, but no more ; and only 6 out of the whole number had
received any instruction. Some indeed of them had been, by
their own acknowledgment, at places of worship, but when
they attended all was darkness and confusion to their minds.
Now, Sir, I do say that when you take measures to promote
the well-being of the people—when you take measures to re-
move any restrictions which may press upon the introduction of
articles necessary for food--I say that as Christians,:and as le-
gislators, you should not shut your eyes to this gross state of
ignorance. Do not forget that while, in this month of May,
there are excellent and pious men meeting day after day,
to consider what sums they shall distribute in China,
in the South Sea Islands, and in Africa, for
the promotion of the Christian faith—do not, I repeat, forget
that in the county of Sussex, and in every other county in
England, a wretched number of persons, who have felt the lash
of the criminal law, are existing in total ignorance of every duty
' which Christians ought to perform. Sir, I cannot entertain
a doubt that the House will wish to pass measures to amend
this evil ; I cannot entertain a doubt that the present Govern-
ment would like to see measures passed, with the view of cor-
recting this alarming evil. True, we are here met by the ob-
jection, that such measures may jar with certain sectarian
jealousies, and interfere with religion, and that you cannot
consistently, and in disregard of the religious
liberties and rights of conscience, pass any general
scheme of education.—(Hear.) But this you can do—
you can make a grant to those who apply for it for that pur-
pose, and thus you can promote and assist to educate the peo-
ple. One plan is to give pupillary teachers to schools through-
out the country ; another is to endow teachers, and so to en-
courage small seminaries. And here I must call the attention
of the House to what is the present situation of schoolmasters.
On those men depend much—the important religious education
and secular knowledge of the people of this country, and yet
there are few of these men who remain satisfied with their sta-
tion—few are anxious to return to the situation of teachers.
What is the fact? No man would remain a schoolmaster for a
longer period than ten years. I have understood
that that is the case with regard to the National
Schools. I have frequently asked the Secretary of the
British and Foreign School Society with regard to it, and he
says " We have many clever young men educated in a school
in the Borough-road, they go from us and take charge of
schools, but people finding that they are worthy of confidence
they are tempted away to other more profitable pursuits and
lucrative situations and leave to inferior masters charge of their
schools." This is a misfortune. They are in consequence of
their abilities employed by merchants and manufacturers in si-
tuations of importance. But not surely more important than
those of instructing the children who are to form
the men of the country.—( Hear, hear.) It must
have struck the observation of every one, that it is the school-
master who really forms the school, for though one may teach
by rote certain words, or certain parts of the Bible or the
Church Catechism, he cannot communicate one idea, still less
one principle in accordance with the doctrines of the Bible.
I am sure, Sir, that all Hon. Members who hear me are as
anxious as I am, to second any means for improving the edu-
cation of the people ; and it cannot be done if we vainly try
to impose compulsory regulations, ur seek to drive the child to
certain schools, let them be established ones or otherwise.
Such a mode of education is impracticable, but you can
assist the schools founded by Protestants or Dissenters, and
by this mode you get rid of the objection I have referred
to. Now, with regard to the national schools, it has been
stated by the
irweCo
utoolndsm
ebxei
pt teerneer oiflr3eoEducation
ne a tat hidoadoti
at
ili
of
pntuh:epyo
implyingswe se et
they
oya
gwiovuelda 11
require
total expenditure of 400,000,. I still think that the grant you
propose for educational purposes should be increased. I think
that it should not be less than 150,0001. per annum for the
people of England and Wales, and I think that the
greater part of that sum should go to the national school ;
some part of it might be combined as an assistance
to the endowed schools, and the rest might be expended on the
other schools throughout the country. And this might very
well be paid under the supervision of the Committee of Edu-
cation oft he Privy Council, and I am of opinion that in that
way a large amount of good might be done to the cause of edu-
cation. This, then, Sir, is the resolution to which I beg the
attention, and if I may, the approbation of the House—" that
the improvements made of late years in the education of the
people as well as its more general diffusion have been seen with
satisfaction by this House." I mean not by these words that
the people should be instructed in the way proposed by Go-

11•••...m.in5.., .r.

vernment—not on the principle of exclusive scula, trt to the
psi ;blished Church, but on a principle of .separate
eduntioll for
di9r all the denominations into wh tch the
inhabitants
ed. I have given a vs
ry
perfect outline of this measure, which think ought
to Le introduced for the purposes of educatioa. I have, in un..
dcrtaking to introduce this measure before the House at this
sls
time, taken into consideration the improvement which has
this period been effected in our trade—the general and pt
1.1- the
tranquillity and obedience to the law which
of affir ming
empire—a tranquillity which obviates the possibility
fug
any it was brought forward to put down clamour or to fui
.y
du
political end or party object. You ought also to take
vantage of such a period, and to propose such measures as Y____o
prevails °v.
may think beneficial to the great mass of the people. Ib.
7
given you my views of what is the course of policy %chic!
would adopt ; and whether you think free trade, or the prl
cip!e of protection should maintain the ascendancy.
should not, at least, wait till a time of disturbance or calm-nitt
~
br
should arrive, before you do something for education... If
i "
so—and I pretend not to know what meesures may strife _n
time—it will not be so beneficial as at this time. And let ale
say one word to those who support the agricultural ioteri,nts
this House—namely, tkat the settlement of this question will
be most favourable to them. Adopt my resolutic 'll
add to it any further resolution that
you may think 1..%1,-
according to your own principle, and as your ow -
views may dispose you ; but my opinion is, tha
your laws cannot stand as they now are. The condition of the
people requires alteration—not for the purpose of providing
directly for their well being, but for the purpose of giving,
as far as in you lies, freedom trom those restraints on food and
education which your own legislation has imposesh
The resolution having bees put.
Mr. SHARMAN CRAWFORD rose. and said that the
amendment of which he had given notice,
011 the first recolution
of the Noble Lord the Member for London, had referent.' to a
period long before this time. In the year 1842 a petition had beenlaid before the House, signed by 3,324,000 of the worklOg
classes of the country, praying the House to sake into it, eesmi--
deratton the propriety of extending to them some measure of
political right, by an extension of the suffrage A motion nu
conformity with the prayer of the petition was brought before'
the House by the Hon. Member for Finsbury and by himself,
but that motion did not meet with the opinions of the liousei
and had, in consequence, been thrown out. The Noble Lord
had advocated the principle of the new poor law, but he. de-
nied that many of the propositions that had been put forwiaNt
on that subject had met with the assent of the late
Government. It was his (Mr. Sharman Crawford's) belief
that the object of the New Poor-law was totally to deny to die
poor man the right of relief. He believed that the operation
of the poor-law was to diminish wages, because the poor man
was willing to take any wages rather than submit to the means
of subsistence that the law held out to him.—( Hear, hear..) 114
his opinion the Poor-law Commissioners ought to be compelled
by public opinion to relax the restrictions that were placed gym
the poor.—( Hear, hear.) As to the law of settlement, Ire
would not now enter into that question, as he should have an-A
other opportunity of doing so, when he hoped to be enabled to.
persuade the House not to adopt the proposition of the Right
Hon. Baronet on that subject. With respect to emigration he
was anxious that means should he taken to keep all the abfe-
bodied labourers in this country, and he was sure, if
the means of the country were properly carried out, thas,`,
could be easily done.—( Hear. ) He thought that 44 millions
of acres of arable land would be quite sufficient for that pttr-
pose and for the comfort and existence of the whole population.
The great evil of the country was that the poor were driven
off the land, and that there was no mode by which the agri-
cultural labourer could elevate himself from his condition.—
( Hear, hear ) The manufacturing districts were overwhelmed
with labourers from the agricultural districts, and that had
arisen from the causes he had pointed out. He believed' there
was no mode by which the House could make itself snore
popular with the working classes than by respectfully consi-
dering their petitions which expressed a desis e
to be properly represented in that House, and to participate in
making the laws which were to govern them. The Hon. Member
then concluded by moving the following amendment to the
Noble Lord the Member for London's resolution : That the
present state of political tranquillity, and the recent revival of
trade, afford to this House a favourable opportunity to giviim-
mediate attention to the claims so repeatedly urged in the ptli-
tions of the people, for an extension of the Parliamentary saf-,
(rage, as well as to consider of such measures as may tend..
permanently to improve the condition of the labouring
classes."

Sir J. GRAHAM then rose—With the permission of ank
House he should have wished to have addressed it immediately
after the Noble Lord the Member for the City rif London had
sat down, but as on the first resolution it was his intention to
move the previous question, and as the effect of that motion
would have been to have prevented the Hon. Member for
Rochdale from moving his amendment, he felt it but right and,
courteous on his part to give him an opportunity of doing so._,
After reading the resolutions of the Noble Lord, he confessed
that he had come down to the House with great doubt and per-
plexity as to the course he should pursue, because he
felt assured that it would be no slight task to
follow him through the different positions he bad
laid down ; and if anything were wanting to increase the
difficulty, it was the statements of the Honourable Member for
Rochdale. Having made these preliminary observations om
the difficulty of following the Noble Lord, he felt bound in.
justice to him to say that any thing more comprehensive, or
more worthy of the subject, than the speech of the Noble Lord,
he had never heard in that House.—( Hear.) It was totally,
devoid of any party feeling or any acrimonious assertions. He
believed that no subject was more difficult to start with than
that which related to the improving the condition of the labour-
ing classes. Their labour was their only property; and no
subject, therefore, could be more important than their
welfare. He trusted that the House would believe
him when he said that he intended to meet the Noble Lord in
a spirit totally devoid of party, and a desire, if possible, to
benefit the working classes. The Noble Lord had asserted
that the present Government had been unmindful of the in-
terests of the working classes, and that the Members on that.
side of the House generally were careless about them. In
order to deny that he thought he need only refer to what had
been done by the Noble Lord the Member for Dorsetshire—
( Hear, hear)—and what had been the course pursued by the'
Government with respect to the measures of the Noble Lord.
It was true that some modifications had been made in them,.
but their general principles had been approved of by the Go-
vernment, and no doubt they would ultimately be
carried into effect. The Noble Lord had said that
the wages of the agricultural labourers of England did
not exceed Bs. a week. Now, his information on the subject
differed from that of the Noble Lord. He believed that the
average was 10s., and that it was somewhat higher than it
was a few years ago. In Norfolk, Suffolk, and Lincolnshire,
he was certain the average was above 10s. He would now
follow the Noble Lord through all his resolutions. In the
first place, he would address himself to the protecting duties.
The first resolution could not be looked upon in any other
light than complimentary to the present Government. The
second resolution, which was with respect to the
protecting duties, he would now proceed to. The great policy
of Mr. Huskisson was not the abolition of protection, but a
substitution of the protecting duties for the prohibitory system.
Mr. Huskisson was a strenuous advocate of the corn-laws of
1815, and was the principal author of the corn-law of 1828.
He admitted that whilst Mr. Huskisson was the advocate of a
protective duty, he was also the author of a gradual de
crease of the duty, in proportion to the increase of the
population. He asserted that such had been the pc-
hey of the present Government.—( Hear, hear.) He cm
not wish to weary the House with unnecessary details. But
as the Noble Lord had gone so far into them, he must follow
for some way. In the first place he must call the attention of
the House to how much had been done in the last three years
in relieving the productive classes from indirect taxatiou bearing
upon their enjoyments. In 1843 and 1844 no less than
6,300,000/. of indirect taxation had been repealed.—(Hear,
hear.) At the same time, by means of direct taxation, the
deficiency had been removed, the income was raised above the
expenditure, and the naval force of the country bad been en-
larged to the amount of 1,000,000/, per annum.—( Hear, hear.)
When the present Government came into office, they found
1,152 articles, of almost the first necessity to the working
classes, subject to duty. They reduced that number more than
one-half. —(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord referred to the
ante sedent history of the National Debt, and had stated truly,
that reductions of the interest had at times served to relieve
industry in a considerable degree. But the present Government
hat not lost sight of that question. On the contrary
they had last year been able to effect an operation of great mag-
nitude, by'which a a saving of more than a million was obtainesf...
The Noble Lord would excuse him for saying that he was
rather amused by the dexterity with which the Noble Lord
evaded the responsibility of his own restrictions. He thought
stuh
laut t
iwuhu e na
sa
tmh
ee mNbuehrl
eo fL
ut hrda
sHousefourth,
t h,ibroughttw as fotrhwe ard
du
tsyu.coh a r e-
f that
hat
Member to move for a Committee of the House to go into the
consideration of the question, whether or not the
hear.)
of the
a
people should be a matter of protection.—(Hear,
worensioldubteiotnh
.e_ri(gchtheceorusr.s)e,
Hinsettehaudugofhtbrthinagtintghefocur wua7red taken so vague
a
as it went to the question directly.---(Cheers.) But it was
quite clear that the Noble Lord himself bad not made up his
mind his own question. Then he said that the time
regulation.
e eongruta introduced,ll na dit
a duty of 4s. or 1.
was gone by foras duty of Bhse.
sufficient.
—(Hear,
Honearce,rhaear, an)d thatoe
Noble Lord now repudiated the idea of taxing food for the
purpose of raising a revenue, and was willing to admit of a
protection. But, in fact, as a matter
dofuty would be a delusion. Four er five.
shillingprotection,s, for
twhehpneurliresideces `were low, would be no :proeee-t
tion at all, and when they were high, no Govern-
ment would be strong enough to preserve the
peace of the country with such a restriction upon the.
importation of food. He was satisfied that all the speculation
which the Noble Lord attributed to the sliding-scale would be'
as nothing compared to what a fixed duty of ss. would give rise
to. The Noble Lord said that the sliding-scale caused fluctua-
tions of price. He (Sir James Graham) denied that. He
thought that absolute fixedness of price could not be attained
with the variability of our seasons. But he would say that no
law could produce less variability than the present law. It
was very true that a larger amount of foreign corn was brought
ei
cnr
utlhateiu u quarter.. three
HTmeheaanrtt:h however, oueawnrt ee. er
d,
He) en
wast
to
thought theth the
result e eiut harvest,
tvoe titanvery
na-
turale r very'
natural
the holders of corn should keep it back, until they
saw what the state of the harvest would be in respect to quan-
tity and quality.—( Hear, hear.) He did not wish to overlay
this part of the question, but he would absolutely deny that the
present law produced uncertainty. In the last twelve months,
the fuctuations in price had been—considering the nature of
the seasons—very small. Since the Ist of January
t
n
oionAn.
nrthodueop
ogwdphnauirrttetittheyemetd:wr,ihelehlasihild:
haglerb,to coteeni
neverhee
last, to the present time, 57,000 quarters of fo-
dadutyqat
anubluae,
tdfreht
einne:ps introducedstrh.heaasuedtpresent
quarter.bbeen
aretigthne henigrhnesth
barley, he was able to show that nothing could be more equal
hundredot
d ru advantageous
tyand thousand
uutnotwithstanding
thths
tlhse. 6edff.ecpterbqeuaifrtetrh.ereOhf
fallen much below 325., and bad not varied more than Is. or
had been thgeuaurtneirfsorimm
were entered for consumption. Now he would ask what wen d
Noble Lord recommended in force, with such harvests as we had
had the last two years ?—(Hear.) The Noble Lord said that
no impulse had been given to agriculture by protec-
tion. But the Noble Lord should admit that since
the termination of the French war, there had been
a great improvement in agriculture, so much so as nearly
to keep pace with the wantsof a population which had doubled
in the mean time.— (Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord had stated
that the increase of the population was nearly miraenlous=
that it amounted to 250,000 a year. The Noble Lord under.
stated the fact, for in the last year the increase had heed
370,000. In the last four years no less than 1,500,000 had
been added to the population of these narrow islands, whilst
the whole amount of the population of Canada was
little above 1,000.000. The population of Holland was but
2,800,000, and that of Switzerland not quite 2,100,000. Bat
this country, with the conduct of which he (Sir J. Graham)
and his colleagues had bees charged for the last four years—
(Cheers and great laughter)—the population had increased by
a number equal to more than two-thirds that of Holland
or Switzerland, and beyond that of Canada.--(des
of " Hear, hear.") But at the same time
necessaries
_
of wages had risen, and the prices of all the
that of
life had diminished.—(Cheers.)
But
tection to the agri-
they were to do away suddenly with
orthe)had exist e
protect
culturist, which—
(whethereilgrffict a great injury upon .fife
of a century,
theywouldNoble Lord had said, that measuWis
whole community. The
should be adopted to improve the condition of all classes of the
conunanity. But he would
ask,was it not the fact, that all

claeses had improved in their circumstances since the present
ceivernment came into office ?—(Heer, hear.) He would
ask, what was the condition of the manufacturing districts
when the present Government took office ? Look to the state
of Paisley, in 1842.—(Hear, hear.) Look to the condition
of Stockport at the same period.—(Hear, hear.) He
then read extrasts from the reports of the inspector
of factories at Stockport, to show, that the manu-
facturers of that place were then in a state of the
greatest distress, that the works were almost all closed, and the
operatives thronging the streets in a starving condition. Mr.
Saunders, an inspector of the woollen district of Yorkshire,
made a statement from which it appeared, that in 1838, the
number of 54,000 persons, of all ages, were employed in ;the
factories. In those factories there were now employed
114,000. showing an increase of 38 per cent. of persons of all
ages. The reports of the manufacturing districts in Scotland
and Ireland were at least as satisfactory, and there were in some
districts a want of hands. He (Sir J. Graham) had there also
soave individual cases represented to him by Mr. Clements,
aa Assistant-Poor-law Commissioner, which he would not read,
through the fear of delaying the House. He (Mr. Clements)
sated that in one manufactory in his district, the
number of labourers who worked for thirty days
during the five weeks ending the 3d of May, 1845,
received 3841., while the same number, who worked nineteen
days during the five weeks ending the 3d of April, 1842, re-
ceived 216/., making a difference of 1381. A master-mason
told him (Mr. Clements), that during the distress of 1841
and 1842 he would gladly accept employment at two shillings
a day, but that now he was getting three shillings and seven-
pence per day, and that, if he chose to leave his present
master, he could receive four shillings per day. He (Mr.
Clements) further stated that they could now get anything
they liked to ask for. lie then dilated on the relative condi-
tion of the operatives, and how it depended upon the price of
the necessaries of life. He (Sir James Graham) wished to
assure the House that upon the point of the extent of
wages in the manufacturing districts, he instituted the most
careful inquiry, and he held in his hand an account
of the wages of the various departments of labour, and princi-
pally of the skilful rabourers in Liverpool, Sheffield, Leeds,
Newcastle-on-Tyne, and Manchester, comprising six years,
which stated the annual average of wages in 1845 was as high
as that of any of the five antecedent years ; and, on the whole,
with the exception of one or two towns, it was higher than in
any of the previous years. He would read to the House the
account from Newcastle-on-Tyne, which stated that the
wages of labourers had been on the increase, and that the
workmen were generality employed. It stated that in 1841,
1842, and 1843, the trade was bad, but that it revived in 1844;
and the most of the trade prices given for work had advanced.
In Liverpool it said that in the years from 1840 to 1844, 1,000
workmen were out of employment, and now that there were
scarcely sufficient applications for work. During the last six weeks,
ending on the 19th of April, 1840, the wages paid in a certain
establishment then were 303/. ; in 1841, 395/. ; in 1842, 260/4
in 1843, 282/. ; in 1844, 2901.; and in the six weeks ending
the 19th of April, 1845, that house paid to the same hands no
less than 6951.—( Hear, hear.) He (Sir J. Graham) said
that the amount of wages was not the only one ingredient in
the comparative comfort of the labouring classes; they should
look also to the prices of the articles of the first necessity.
He stated also that in the aericultural districts, so far from
there being a fall of wages, there had been an actual increase
in many counties. He would wish to call their attention to
the command that the same amount of labour had over the ne-
cessities of life compared with that of former years.
He was not one of those who denied that a bad har-
vest was one cf the greatest curses that Provi-
dence could inflict, and that an abundant harvest was
one of the greatest blessings that it could bestow ; that all
human legislation was vain against the dispensations of Pro-
vidence, and that all legislation was inoperative when compared
with the blessings of Providence ; but when he came to read to
them the prices of the articles of the first necessaries he would
show that a great many of them had decreased during the pre-
sent legislation. He would compare the present year with the
prices of the year when the change of Government took place.
In the year 1841 the price of wheat was 645. per quarter, in
the present year the price was 465. per quarter. In 1841 the
price of barley was 335. per quarter, it was now 325. 3d. per
quarter. In 1841 the price of oats was 21s. lld., it was
now 21s. 4d. The price of flour was 100. per quartern,
it was now Bd. The price of oatmeal was 61.
per quarter, it was now 3d. The articles which he
was about to enumerate would not so much depend on the
harvests. The price of beef in 1841 was 7d. per lb. it was
now 50. per lb. The price of mutton was 7d. per lb., and
within the last fourteen days it was 6d. per lb. The price of
pork which was 7d. per lb. in 1841 was now 6d. per lb. The
price of sugar which was 7d. per lb. in 1841 was now sd. per
lb. The price of coffee which was 2s. in 1641 was now is. 4d.
per lb. The price of currants which were 9d. per lb. was
new 6d. Candles were sold in 1841 at 7d. per lb. they were
now sold at 6d. per lb. Lie could enumerate various
other articles, almost every one of which corres-
ponded with those already referred to, and there
was not an increase in any one article. He thought
that the Noble Lord did injustice to her Majesty's Government,
and to the Right lion. Baronet at the head of that Govern-
ment, when he referred to the measures which he bad adopted,
with respect to the monetary system of this country. It eras
most true that there was a large increase of the circulating
medium, but while there was a necessity of paying in gold,
their prosperity was decreased by the undue issue of paper,
payable ou demand, which was not only evanescent, but was
attended with the most severe pressure upon all classes, and
upon none more than upon the labouring classes. In the year
1841, the amount of bullion in the hands of the Bank of
England was only 5,000,000/., and the amount of notes in
circulation was 16,400,000/. When he was now addressing
them, the amount of bullion in their hands was 16,000,000/.,
instead of 5,000,000/, and the circulation in notes, instead of
being 16,400,000/. was no less t hart 21,163,0001., and consequer.t
upon the measure of last year, with reference to the Bank of
England, there was now a progress in the same respect in the
banks both of England and Ireland. Measures were taken
against the undue circulation o' that sear, and he believed that
they were going certain lengths with respect to the Bank of
England which would render that prosperity not only not
'senescent, but stable, and these measures were not only in
progress, but had received their completion and had produced
their effects. Then let him call attention to the state of spe-
culation in this country, for it should be admitted that specu-
lation had had great effect upon the state of the labouring popu-
lation in this country ; and the first class of speculation to which
he would call attention was the amount of capital that
tad been embarked in railway speculations within the last four
years. Up to the year 1841, there were laid down in this
country 2,345 miles of railroads, at a cost of 68,700,0001.; in
the year 1844 there were 728 additional miles laid down, at an
additional cost of 10,400;0(.0/. ; and during the present session
the creation of new lines of rail amounted to 6,0:10 additional
miles, with a capital evils' in amount to 80,000,000/. Last
year, the lines of railway which received the sanction of Par.
liament extended to an outlay of ten millions ; and this year
it was expected that the outlay in the country upon rail-
roads that should receive the sanction of the Legislature,
\mild amount to about 20,a)0,000t. Now, of course, a great
deal of this money would be expanded in giving employment;
in fact, for massy years to come it would give very extensive
employment. There was another matter in connexioe with
this subject, to which he would beg to direct attention, in re-
ference to the state of the working classes—namely, the dimi-
notion of crime in England. He found, by returns that had
been laid before the House, a very considerable decrease in
the diminution of crime. He found that, in the year 1842,
there was a diminution of full 50 per cent. ; in 1843
it was still greater ; and the diminution of crimes of
an atrocious character was still more remarkable for
the last year.—( Hear.) lie would next call attention
. to the Report of the Poor-law Commissioners that had been
laid on the table of the House this year, by which it appeared
that, as compared with last year, there was a diminution equal
to 20 per cent. as compared with the year 1843, of able bp-
died parsons relieved in the workhouses. With regard to what
the Noble Lord had said about the law of settlement, he (Sir
J. Graham) begged tts say that his opinion was in favour of
making birth the test of a right to settlement, though objec-
tions might arise to the regulation in the rural districts
which could not apply in manufacturing town's.
With reference to the Noble Lord's opinion upon emi-
gration, he (Sir James Graham) was rather at a loss
to understand. the Noble Lord. The emigration to America
was a comparatively cheap and short voyage—it cost but
;tut there all the Crown lands in that country belonging to this
had been made over to the local authorities, so that there was
but much to be expected by emigrants going to that country.
Anti as to Aue'ralia, that voyage occupied five months, and
cost 191., while in Sydney there was at present such an excess
of labour that people were wandering about there unable to
get work, and therefore the Government should exercise
the utmost caution in recommending emigrant:: to that colony.
He had before him a table showing the emigration which had
taken place from the United Kingdom during the last ten
years. In 1841, 18,000 persons emigrated; in 1812, 28,000;
1843, 57,000 ; and in 1844, no less than 70,000 persons emi-
grated. Divine the first quarter of the present year, the emi-
grations from the United Kingdom amounted to 13,507; ttie
number for the same period of last year, being 7,286. He now
came to another point on which the Noble Lord dwelt with
great earnestness and anxiety—he alluded to the means taken
fir the education of the working classes. He admitted with
the Noble Lord, that all efforts to improve the education of the
working classes, without attention being paid to the improve-
ment of their physical condition, would be found useless and
unavailing. He was satisfied, that in the first instance they
must pay attention tp the improvement of the physical con-
dition of the working classes. Thele physical condition being
improved, it became the duty of the Government to bestow the
utmost attention on their moral improvement. Had the Go-
vernment shown neglect in this respect? In 1841, the annual
vote for education was 30,000/. ; in 1842, it was 40,000/.';
and last year it was 70,0001. Since her Majesty's present
Government came into office, the sum of 10,009/.
had been granted to the National School 'Society,
1,000/. in aid of the Normal schools for train-
ing master-, and the sum of 750/. had been granted to the
Foreign School Societies. The sum of 3,5001. had been
granted to a school at Chelsea, 3,5001. to a Normal school at
Battersea, and a further sum of 3,500/. granted to the diocesan
school of the West Riding of Yorkshire. The sum of 9,000 i.
had been granted to the General Assembly of Seutland for tile
establishment of Normal schools at Glasgow and Edinburgh,
and generally speaking very large advances—progressive act-
, vanees—had been made for the foundation of schools in Great
Britain. No less a sum than 320,000/. had been spent in tile
establishment of schools since the year 1833. Those sums
had been advanced in addition to subscriptions of private
Altogether, within the last twelve yearis
as much as one million of capital had been
expended in Great Britain in building and founding school.
Ilor had the Dissenters been behind hand in this, for they had
subscribed as mach as 70,000/. He had now but one other
subject to notice in reference to the moral improvement of the
pleof this count and and that was in reference to a measure
brought forward by his Right Hon. Friend at the head of t
Government, and which received the sanction of Parliament.
in the course of last year. He alluded to the measure which
enabled the Ecclesiastical Commissioners of England, withoet
any contribution from the public funds,
_to build churches anti
to place endowed ministers in densely-inhabited manufacturing
districts of this country.
opera-
tion for about twelve months, and measure had now been in
churches had been built, thirty'. daring that time thirteen
ionetrwacetreedindrogress of being
built, and forty-seven were
to be built.
Those churches would afford accommodatiron
to
people. He had now brown that, coincident with the
measures which had been proposed in the last three or fotir
e
years, there had been a most remarkable revival of the trade f
this country. There had been, on the whole, an increase ip
the wages of labour, and there had been a diminution of crime
and a diminution of pauperism. Much religious instructionhad
been afforded, and, on the whole, he did hope and believe, that
the account which he had been reading would be regarded as
indicative of no neglect of duty on the part of the Government.
He was confident that the British public would see that they
had faithfully discharged their duties, with a sincere and honept
desire to promote the interest and happiness of all classes el
her Majesty's subjects, but more especially the interests add
welfare of the labouring classes. He must say, that in his opi-
nion the resolutions which had been proposed by the Noble
Lord, must be regarded, both by the House and by the
country, as demonstrations of a disapprobation of the con-
duct of her Majesty's Government, and as indicative
of an opinion that her Majesty had been ill advised. He should
feel it to be his duty before he sat down to move the previous
question, but to arrive at that previous questionit was first ne-
cessary to negative the amendment of the Honourable Member
for Rochdale. He could hardly think that the Honourable
Gentleman" would be -disposed to press the amendment to a
division. If, however, he should persist in pressing his amend-
ment, it maid be his (Sir James Graham's) duty to Tots

against it, and in case of its being rejected, then be should
move the previous question.
Sir C. BURRELL said, that in the► course of his speech
the Noble Lord had made some reflections on the county of
Sussex—(Hear, bear)—at least such was his impression of the
observations which the Noble Lord had made. When the
Noble Lord recollected how great the changes which a few
years made in the population of the county, and when he espe-
cially recollected how that population was now tending towards
the coast, he thought that the Noble Lord would change his
position, and allow that the lower classes in the county of Sus-
sex were not so reduced as he represented them. Had he known
that county properly he would never have so aspersed the gentry of
that county. In another part of his speech he had spoken
of the want of education among the labourers, and
of the disregard which was felt for their wants. He (Sir
C. Burrell) thought that he might pretend to know something
of the country, and he could assert that it was a constant
desire among the landowners, and all connected with the
property of the country, to find employment for the poor, even
though at a sacrifice, rather than send them to the poor-house.
He knew something of the labourers, also, for he had been in
the habit, for many years, of paying upwards of seventy
labourers, and had never heard that they were either in want or
dissatisfied, and he was certain that there was a great desire
throughout the country to meet the necessities of the poor, and
provide them with employment, and he should be glad to know
from what source the Noble Lord derived his information.

Lord JOHN— RUSSELL certainly did not desire to throw
any aspersions on the county of Sussex. He had derived his
information from the report of the Commissioners to investigate
the state of the prisons in the county, and to report upon the
state of the education of the prisoners whom they might find in
the gaols.
Sir C. BURRELL—WcuId the Noble Lord state what
gaols ?
Lord J. RUSSELL—Certainly not.
Mr. LABOUCII ERE said that he had listened with great
satisfaction to the speech of the Right Hon. Baronet the Secre-
tary for the Home Department. He was glad to perceive from
that speech the course which the Government intended to
pursue, and that they intended to carry out many useful and
practical measures for the advantage of the country. He was
the last person to object to such a course, or to any set of men
when they evidently were desiroas of promoting good and great
purposes. But still he thought that there was some doubt of the
utility of the mode which they adopted in carrying out
their designs ; and when this impression was prevalent
in the country he thought he was not going too far in stating
his opinion that the distress of the lower classes had not been
sufficiently considered.—(" Hear, hear," from Lord J. Rus-
sell.) He thought, therefore, that the motion of his Noble
Friend was both a useful and a wise one, and that he had
taken a wise part in bringing this matter before the considera-
tion of the House. He thought it was better to resort to good
advice rather than to resort to the hazardous assistance of the
empiric. He could not but repeat that he had heard the
speech of the Right Hon. Baronet with great satisfaction. As
an indication of the course which the Government intended to
pursue, it certainly was good ; but what did the speech amount
to ? That there had been a great revival in trade—that com-
merce and manufactures had been aroused from their great
depression, and that the people were relieved from the dread-
ful depression of high pribes.—(Hear.) During the present
year this had been remarkable, and he trusted that such
measures would be taken as would effectually prevent any re-
turn to the disastrous plan of high prices. But what was all
' this ascribed to? Owing to the speeches of the Hon. Gen-
tlemen opposite all these advantages had been ascribed to the
wisdom of the Government, and it was not until they were in-
terrupted by the laughter on the other side of the House that
they began and perceived that reasons had something to do
with it. When, in addition to this, they were induced to
look further they might, he thought,'• ascribe some thing
also to those periodical changes to which commercial
affairs were always subject, and to the low prices
which had ensued in consequence of the general prosperity.
Assuming that the argument of the Right Hon. Gentleman
was correct, what a strong argument it was why they should
proceed in a course which had been been attended with such
beneficial effects. Let them then proceed—let them develop
the resources of the country and open up its channels to the in-
fluence of still further changes in these high prices.— (Hear. )
He was not, however, disposed to go much into detail. He
considered:that the calm and tranquillity which pervaded the
country was favourable to the consideration of such questions.
The Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir James Graham) said that
the country was at the present moment in a state of great pros-
perity, and that part at least of that prosperity was owing to the
late commercial changes that had been introduced by the pre-
sent Government. If that was so, let them take care that a re-
coil would not take place, and produce a state of things worse than
what preceded those changes. The country ought, he con-
sidered, to be grateful to the Noble Lord who had brought
forward this great question, influenced, as he was in doing so
by no factious or party feeling. He (Mr. Labouchere) per-
fectly concurred in the resolutions which had been brought
forward by the Noble Lord, and he would earnestly implore
the Government to take them into their serious consideration.
He had great objection, however, to the manner in which
they had brought about the changes which they had already

introduced. Not only did they disarrange trade and commer-
cial affairs, but he believed that they had been the cause of
producing the great discontent which prevailed in the manufac-
turing districts. He thought that whatever claim the landed in-
terest might have to a protective duty, they were net entitled to
have it in such a way as to damage the commercial interests of the
country. They—the Parliament—of that House, had set an
example, he would not say for what purpose or pretext—they
had pursued a course, in reference to sugar, which set a bad
example to the rest of the world. He thought that their rC-
cent measures and policy, in reference to Brazil, had the ten-
dency rather to perpetuate than to put an end to the slave
trade. But as that was not the time to enter into that ques-
tion, be would not detain the House further, but conclude by
giving his hearty support to the resolutions which had bean
brought forward by the Noble Lord. —( Hear. )
Sir J. T Y RRELL considered that parties in that HouSe
and in the country were in an extraordinary position. They
had an opposition doing the business of the Government, and
they had a Government who were deserted by those who
ought to be, and had been its most strenuous supporters. For
his own part, he gave his best thanks to the Noble Lord who
had brought forward this question for the opportunity which
he had afforded him of expressing his opinion on it. He did
not think that any Member of the House was open to the
charge of prolonging the debate when he attempted to lay
before the House the judgment he had formed on these
all-important questions. The Noble Lord had brought forward
his motion on the corn question, feeling that this was the
great battle-field, and the main question for their considera-
tion. The Noble Lord had done great injutice to the agri-
cultural interest, inasmuch as there was a great fund at the
disposal of any Minister who might think fit to carry it out for
the benefit of that interest. By the 43d of Elizabeth it was
enacted that all persons should contribute to the poor-rate in
proportion to their means.—( Hear, hear.) If that were now
the case he thought Government would soon find a large fund
at their disposal for the purposes of education, and for alle-
viating the distresses of the poor ; but it happened that of late
Ministers had fought very shy of the commercial and mann-
faeturinm districts of the country. Yet there were many indi-
viduals in the large towns of this country who did not con-
tribute one particle to the maintenance of the poor-rates—
Howell and James's, or Storr and Mertimer's, for instance, who
would tell him that they had invested their money in pro-
perty.—( Laughter. ) There was another question on which,
if the principles of lion. Gentlemen opposite were true, they
were harshly dealt with, as those en that side of the House did
not carry out their own principles. With respect to malt, for
instance, they did not take off any portion of the duty, and yet
such would be the increased consumption, and such the addi-
tional amount added to the revenue, that no loss would be sus-
tained by any such course—on the contrary, when the agricul-
tural interest complained, they said to them, 't We cannot
forego any such imposition ;" and when they asked for a trifle,
they told them that it was unworthy of the agricultural interest
to make such a demand. He could not, howe►er, descend to
personalities, because ha was perfectly aware that they ought
not to be tolerated when great interests were
at stake ; but this he would say, that when the
manufacturing districts were in a state of depression, the
Right Hon. Baronet altered the corn-laws, but when the agri-
cultural interest. complained—as they did at the commence-
ment of the present cession—the Ilight Hon. Baronet's re-
medy was to make the manufacturing and commercial interests of
the country so rich and at the same time so hungry—(Laugh-
ter)—that he was not able to find them provisions. That was
the way great interests were dealt with. It had been said that
they were not in a condition to form an agricultural adnainis-
tration.—(ilear, hear.) But be that as it may they thought
that they had done so. He for one did not consider that any
greater reflection on the intelligence of that body than it would
be in a nobleman who had not two sets of butlers, nor two sets
of cooks, and who did not offer his guests the entertainment
they had expected. Those on the bench below him he thought
had forfeited their confidence, and so far as they
were concerned they might look for other friends.

It was true they -might- not get better.—(Laughter.)
The great parties in this House were so united that there was
very little differenc:.t between them on great or small questions.
--(Laughter. ) It was necessary to eall them by name to spe-
cify their opinions. He felt considerably indebted to the Noble
Lord for bringing forward those resolutions. He regretted
that he could not vote for them—( Laughter)—because they
were not of a practical character. The Noble Lord never in-
tended that they should be so.—(Continued laughter.) But
he must do him the justice to say that he kept a good look out,
keeping a man at the mast-head to watch when the straw
moved, that he might avail himself of any opportunity of
taking the reins of Government, and of obtaining the con-
fidence of the Queen. Under these circumstances he should
sit down.—(Great laughter.) He did not believe that
the constituencies of the country had changed their opinions.
What might happen in the future was not for him to point out.
—(Loud laughter.) During the ten years which the Noble
Lord held power he had not propounded any intelligible mea-
sure in that House with respect to education, although he took
great pains to dilate on its importance. If he were asked why
all classes were in the receipt of such small wages, which he
for one deplored, he would say that they chiefly arose from a
want of confidence in the Ministers and in that House as to the

policy which they intended to pursue towards those engaged in
agriculture. As far as theory went, they might be right, but,
being theoretically right, they might be practically wrong.
It could not be disguised that this was meant to be a corn-law
debate. The Hon. Member concluded by saying that when
they next put their noses into that House, he was greatly mis-
taken if there was not a change of men as well as of measures.
Lord POLLAN GTON differed entirely from the views of
the Right Hon. Baronet who had just sat down. An ancient
philosopher said that there were two great feelings in our
nature, the sympathy and antipathy, but the strongest feeling
of all was the sympathy of antipathy. He thought this observa-
tion very well applied to many Hon. Members on that side of
the House who opposed the Government. The Hon. Baronet
boasted of his affection to his own country, but would yet raise
a palace of foreign stone in St. James's-street, erected by foreign
artists.—(Hear.) With respect to the corn-laws, he had not tke
same feelings of dislike to their repeal as many Hon. Members
on that side of the House.—(" Hear, hear," from the Opposi-
tion.) He objected to colonization on any hut a full and com-
plete system. The plan of sending convicts to our colonies had
been most pernicious. With respect to the question of educa-
tion he thought much good had been done by the attention
which Parliament had lately devoted to the subject. He pre-
ferred no education to education without religion—total dark-
degs was better than false lights, which would lead them to
estruction.
Mr. VILLIERS rose and said that he had been listening
with the greatest attention for some hours to the discussion
promoted by the Noble Lord, and he took great anxiety
to find
_is resolutions—to see some reasons why
an answer to the principal question raised
his
by
neotttirntbruydean himself utoponhis the
N obaltetenFtiroienndo,sf
should
he
thehe
1
House,
arguments, or by a determination of his Noble Friend
to relieve him from the trouble of obtruding himself on that
House in future. No one could dispute the great question
raised
re duty,byhi s Nboebelaeuso
thatv oNoble
night—itLobrought before the was a question of pro-
tective tecti
clizege.dwith a view to the
House the condition of the labourilinge
things
improvement of their condition.
which had deteriorated the condition of the labouring
but which were not within the reach or controul of
MI! classes,
lature, but he alluded to one thing in particular wth?cii;effs-d
been the especial cause of this deterioration anda
which was within the control of Parliament.—(Hear.)
He had presented to the House that night a high duty with
all that he had said on the subject, and they had been waiting
on that side of the House to hear the theory defended, and to
hear whether it was practicably true what had been proposed.
He really listened with interest when the Hon. Member for
Sawa rose, and thought he would rile with jut indignation

to defend the aspersions that had been cast on the
opposition offered by the Right Honourable the Secre-
tary of State. He thought there were arguments
in its defence, which would reconcile the House to the con-
tinuance of the measure. The Right Hon. Gentleman
laboured to prove the great blessing and great advantage to the
community at large, and especially to the labouring classes,
which had resulted from certain restrictions on trade. The
arguments which had been submitted appeared to him to have
been adduced merely to consume the time of the House. He
believed in no other assembly such arguments would be tole-
rated. For the last seven years, these arguments had
been heard over and over again. The prices *ere
low, which meant that food was abundant, and
they had the Right Hon. the Secretary of State for the
Home Department as a witness to what were the effects of low
prices. if it were wished to put a witness in the box to speak
to these effects, he knew of no man in whom more implicit
confidence could be placed, and to whose word more could be
trusted, or whose evidence would be more satisfactory, than
the Right Hon. Gentleman. He says, in the first place, the
labouring class are well off. He does not say this as a
progressive improvement, but he contrasts it with the
time trhen he would have wished it. He gives you
some results, to show what was the effect of low
prices in diminishing misery. He goes through every
test to try the condition of the lower classes. He says,
crime is diminished, and crime is usually the result of
poverty. He says that wages are increased not only in the
manufacturing, but also in the agricultural districts. He
told the House that the rates for the relief of the poor had
been diminished, and there was less destitution in the country.
He had given the price of provisions, and had said that the
price of meat had been reduced from 7d. per pound to 6d., and
that sugar some time ago was 7d. per pound, and was now only
sd. ; and told us to regard the blessing that had resulted from
this reduction in price. The Noble Lord has said, by the
system we were pursuing, we were raising the price of
food upon the community and the labouring classes, and
if they were obliged to pay more for their food,
they would be less able to clothe and educate their children.
If those on the Opposition side of the House succeeded in
raising the price of food, then they were willing to go back
to the law of 1840 and 1841 ; but if they failed in raising
the price of food, then they cared not for 10s. additional to
the present rate of duty. There was no escape from this con-
clusion, so he would leave them to settle it as they could.
—(Cheers.) The question was, is protection worth having,
or is it not ? The Hon. Gentleman who agreed with the
Hon. Member for Sussex had stated they withdrew their:con-
fidence from the Ministry, for the injury they had inflicted on the
agricultural interest by their recent tariff, yet what was the fact.
According to the Hon. Member for Sussex, the labourers in
his county were never better off than they were new. The
labourers were well employed and paid. He had in his own
employment seventy labourers, who were described to be ex-
ceedingly well to do ; yet this was at a time when he was
threatening to withdraw his support from the Government
who had passed the law under which this prosperity had taken
place.—(Cheers.) He wanted to know if there was any
rational ground or pretence for protective duties at all? The
Noble Lord the Member for London, in the course
of his address, had pointed out with great clearness
and ability the benefits which had resulted from the removal of
protection. He had instanced wool and silk, about which the
greatest cry was raised in both Houses of Parliament at the
time the duties were reduced.—( Hear, hear.) Noble
Lords and Right Honourable Gentlemen manifested the
greatest fears of the bad consequences which would follow,
yet so far from anything injurious resulting, the
step taken had been attended with great advantage to those
particular trades and the general interests of the country.
There was not one single argument applied to wool or silk.
but what equally applied to corn. The Noble Lord had
shown that wherever the protective system was in existence, the
interest sought to be benefited was invariably depressed.
The Noble Lord had contrasted his intermediate scheme for a
4s. duty with the less equivocal measure propounded by him-
self and colleagues. But wherein consisted virtually the diffe-
rence between an insignificant restrictive import, acknow-
ledged to be but temporary, and an immediate free trade?
The principle was admitted, but the mischief retained. For
himself, however, he thanked the Noble Lord for the opportu-
nity he had afforded the House of discussing the question, and
he trusted it would meet with that consideration its interest
and importance demanded.
The Hon. Mr. SCOTT thought it was incumbent upon the
agriculturists of the county to raise a sufficient supply of food
for the population, and without protection were afforded to
that interest:it was quite impossible that this:object could be ac-
complished. The population of the country, it was admitted,
increased a thousand per day, or 365,000 per year, and this
circumstance rendered it necessary that agricultural
protection should be increased in order that the
supply of food might keep pace with the demand.
In his opinion, it was absurd to expect that a repeal of the
existing corn-law would induce corn producing countries to
export their grain, or increase the manufacturing trade of Eng-
land. Prussia had imported the largest quantity of corn into
this country, and yet in the last year Prussia had only taken
20/. worth of printed goods, and 127/. of eotton goods. It was
mach better, therefore, to give protection and encouragement
to the British agriculturist, and they might rely upon it, in pro-
portion to the increase of protection, the trade and manufacture
would be augmented.
On the motion of Mr. P. HOWARD, the debate was then
adjourned till Wednesday.
The report on the last Committee of Supply was brought up
and agreed to.
MILITARY SAVINGS' BANK BILL _

The Bill went through Committee, and the report was orderesl
to he received on Friday.
The remaining orders of the day were then disposed of, and
the House adjourned at One o'clock.

HER MAJESTY'S THEATRE.
TATS EVENING

Will bo performed Donizetti's Opera entitled LINDA DI
C :lAMOU NI. Linda, Mddle. Castelan ; Maddalena, Alddle. Bellini ;
Pierotto, Mddle. Brambilla ; Antonio, Sig. Fornasari ; 11 Pretctto
del Villaggio, Sig. Lablache ; 11 Marchese di Boistleury, Sig. F. La-
blache L'lntendente del Fendo, Sig. Dia Fiori ; and Carlo Visconte
di Serval, Sig. Moriani.
Between the nets of the Opera the Danseuses Viennoises,under the
direction of Madame Weiss, will appear in " L'Hongrolse," and in
the Ballet, " Pas de Fleurs."
To conclude with LA ESMERALDA. La Esmcralda, Mdile.
Carlotta Grist ; Flcnr de Lys, Madame Petit Stephan ; Phoebus de
Chateupers, M. St. Leon ; Pierre Gringo:re, M. Perrot.
kpplications for Boxes, Stalls, and Tickets to be made at the Box-
Oleo, Opera Colonnade.
Doors open at llalf-past Seven o'clock ; to commence at Eight.