The Sun.
London, England, 1842-06-07 00:00:00

.i~T"'i

In tolvi,s c!Julti do more than they could to put an end to
eorrupti n.(llear, llt considered that the Nohlo Lord,
in intrOduciritt the clause which admitted the proof of bribery
ifi hh giVen f,,re the proof of ageney, had struck a greater
blow at bribery than anything that had ever been adopted.
He believed that although the Noble Lord's Bill would not
hat'e the effect of putting au etitl to bribery, it vrotild prevent
it ill a grtiat measure ; and such being his opinion, he would
give it his cordial support.
Mr. HUME was convinced if Hon. !Umbers were sincere
in their wish to put down bribery they would succeed. He
th,ught every party ought to be treated alike, and that every
man coming torward and giving money in the shape of a bribe
at elections, ought to be punished.—(Hear.) lie, however,
believed that u ,til the constituency was enlarged, bribery
would never be put down. No good could be effected till they.
got the ballo,—( A laugh.)
Mr. ROEBUCK thought that when an Hol. Member
cattle to the table to be sworn, and gave in his qualification,
he should also be required to give in the expenses of his elec-
tion.—( Hear, hear.)

LordsSANbON believed that the adoption of such a course
would in no manner indicate what had taken place at the elec-
tion. These were many expenses • incident to the excitement
of an election in a large con•tituency, such as music, and other
thing?, whi'h could not be avoided ; and, looking at the whole
sulject, he must c .nfess he could not see his way out it,
unle s the House admi;ted certain expenses to be incurred.
Leave was then given to king* in the Bill.
_

Mr. Alderman HUMPfibtYWesented a petition from
3tiO of his constituents, against any reduction in the duty on
forrigti boots and :hoes.

Vs:. LA BOUCHERE presented a petition (we did not hear
from what place) against any alteration in the duty on foreign
hemp.
Mr. THOR NELY presented three petitions from Liverpool,
sigt,ed by 2,600 persons, and the petitlowrs stated that
they regretted that 11,e amended tar.ff did not contain, a reduc-
tion in th t duty on foreign sugar. They stated many rea=ons
why the duty should be equal, and they prayed the House to
take the subject into its immediate consideratien, with a view to
assimi:ating the duty on foreign sugar, and sugar the growth
of our possessions. Also a petition signed by 204 wholesale and
retail grocers and coffee dealers of Liverpool to the same effect.
Lord SANDON presented a petition from the operative
rope-makers of Liverpool, complaining of the reduction con-
templated in the duty on foreign cordage. The petitioners
stated that a great amount of foreign cordage was brought into
Liverpool and exported to foreign parts.
THE TAn

The House then went into Committee on the Customs Act.
On the clause regulating the duty on foreign timber being
prol-osed,
Nlr. ROEBUCK proposed that the duty on colonial
and foreign timber should be equal, but he spoke in so
extremely low a tone that it was a considerable time
before we could hear him. He said the colonies derived otl
benefit whatever as colonists from a differential duty. He,
took the trade in pine. In the year ending January, 1842
the amount of pine imported from the colonies in America
was 614,057 loads of pine timber. From Europe the amount
was 131,468. He would take the prices of two years, 1841-
1842. Foreign timber was delivered in London, duty free, at
V. 16s. the load, Canadian timber at 4/. ss. 841. There was a
duty on foreign timber of 21. 155., which made the price
51. 11s., and this was for the best article that conld be got.
The duty on Colonial timber was 10s., and this for a bad ar-
ticle. which made the price 41. 15s. 841., so that by our ad-
mirable fiscal regulations, the best article that could ice ob-
tained was at the price of 51. 11s., while the worst article
amounted to as much as 4/. 15s. Bd. How was this a pro-
tection to the colonies?- and what a loss- was this to the peol.le
of this country, when they considered that the rid
pine ;rout Canada was one-third less in value than
that of the pine from Europe. The revenue would
be benefited by the proposal which he submitted to the
Committee.—( Hear, hear.) He found that the revenue de-
rived front the importation of timber last year amounted alto-
gether to 708,3081. ; and the number of loads of timber im-
ported was 745,000. Now if they imposed a duty of 20s. a
load, even supposing that the quantity imported did not increase,
they would have a revenue of 745,0001„ being an increase of
nearly 40,0001. upon the revenue that had been last year rea-
lised. They need not be deterred from adopting the proposal
he recommended by any fear of injuring Canada. The timber
trade in that country was now a mere gambling speculation,
which gave employment •to a rude class, only very limited in
numbers, and which did not benefit the population generally.
Again, he did not think that our shipping interest would suf-
fer from the proposed alteration so much as some might ima-
gine. He believed that the greater part of the vessels which
would cease to be engaged in the timber trade of Canada
would hereafter be employed in carrying on the trade to
which the late changes in the tariff would give rise. The
Hon. and Learned Gentleman concluded by moving that the
duties °a colonial and foreign timber should hereafter be 20s.
per load.
Sir H. DOUGLAS could not approve of the proposal of the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman. It was impossible to deny
that it would seriously affect the interests of Canada. He de-
nounced the policy pursued with regard to their colonies as a
ruinous policy. The timber trade had the effect of clearing
the land and preparing the soil for the occupation of emigrants,
and 'he contended against the policy of any measure that
would ,discourage the trade.--( Hear.) He cent: acted
the certainty of the colonial trade with the uncertainty
of the foreign trade, and wished to see it kept entire, by its
great and indispensible link, differential duties. He concluded
by reading a tribute to the commercial and pol:tical greatness of
England, from the pen of Charles Dupin, which he ascribed
to the greatness of her colonial system. '1 he same opinions
had been expressed by other political writers; he had never
asunrdrepnrdoe7rLAeetrilnli.htdityliself to the systems of free trade advocated by
gentlemen opposite, but he had agreed to an examination of
the question, with a view to secure the greatest benefit to one
interest, with a fair amount of protection to the other. 13ut
if they made themselves dependent on foreign nations for their
supply, they should break down the springs of their greatness
g'd,oasnuhdboluyl should
dying,forfeit fa
shouldir r renown,
w-n,
down
To the vile dust from whence they sprung,
Unwept, unhonoured, and unsung."
Mr. P. M. STEWART said, as his Hon. and Gallant Friend
who had just sat down had passed a high eulogium on the tariff,
he must say that he thought that measure had received as much
welcome irons that (the Opposition) side Of the House as from
that by which it was propounded.—( Hear, hear. ) That
tariff, vs ith all its faulos, was one which ought to be hailed by this
commercial country as the charter of much good now, and of
more hereafter. In one respect, however, he thought-it Was sadly
detective, namely. in the proposal with respect to the timber
duties. '1 he colonies were, in his judgment, the best markets of
this country, and they appeared likely to become yet more eaten-
site. His (Sir. Stewart s) complaint of the measure proposed by
Government (and he did not treat it as a party question, but ass
great national question) was that it• would so tar prostrate the
strength and means of the Canadians to carry on competition
(and competition was desirable), that the consumer would
suffer in the sequel. The Timber Committee which sat in
18,35, and of which the late Lord Sydenham was chairman,
had recommended that the reduction in the differential duties
on timber should not exceed Iss. in the then existing duties.
That recommendation went even beyond the evidence taken
before the Committee, which did not recommend a greater
reduction than 7s. or Bs. Lord S)denbam, last year, in his
letters from Canada on this subject,•mentioned it as particularly
desirable that the recommendation of the Committee of 1835
should be adhered to; and what he (Sir. S.) complained of
was, that that recommendation was mot adhered to in the pre-
sent proposition of the Government. Until the evidence given
before the Committee of. 1835 could be refuted, he ( Sir. S.)
considered that no alteration in the duties should take place.
The Hon. Gentleman concluded by moving "That the duty on
colonial timber be reduced to ss. per load, and the duty on fo-
reign timber to 355. ; and that the measurement of deals, for
the purpose of charging duty, be taken in conformity with the
recommendation of the Committee of 1835."

The question having been put,
Mr GLADSI ONE said that if the proposition of the Hon.
Member fur Bath were true, the propositions of the Govern-
ment would have a tendency to mitigate them. What he him-
self stated was conclustie against the adoption of his own plan.
He admitted that his plan was not without utility in point of
revenue ; but that was not the only considerate n which
weighed with the Government. There were political reasons
which influenced them still more. He now came to the pro-
position ef the Hon. Gentleman who had spoken last, who bald
that he was a raid the colonial interest would be laid pros-
trate by the Government proposition. He was inclined to
think that his Hon. Friend found it difficult to steer between
his free trade and his interest as a colonial proprietor.—
( Laughter. ) His Hon. Friend asked what was gained, and
who was benefited by the proposition of the Government.
What interest rather was not greatly advantaged by the prop-
sition ? Who was there that would not gain by it ? Looking
to the general nature of these propositions, it was true that a
great sacrifice of revenue was made, but were there not reasons
for that sacrifice? He thought there were reasor s for not
adopting the recommendation of 1835. That Committee pro-
posed their recommendation as an isolated measure, and not as
connected with any general alteration of their commercial policy.
When he recollected that the British grower of wood made no
complaints, he thought it was rather unreasonable for the co-
lonial growers to set down the advantage held out as nothing.
Now what was the actual amount of the reductions they were
going to make? With respect to deals it was small, if they
looked at it as money, but in other respects it was not. Then
with respect to timber, the reduction was much larger ; the
pm sent duty on timber from the colonies averaged I Is., while
the duty on timber from the Baltic was 565. 6d., so that there
wa, a protection of 455. 641. It had been said that the present
duties had the effect of maintaining equal and fair competition.
He dewed that they did so; and such being the case, it was
clear that the present duties required alteration, and he had not
heard any arguments adduced, which showed that the pro-
Posed alteration would affect the colonial timber trade..
In the month of April, a meeting was held in Liverpool, and
one of the resolutions was, that the prices then current in
North ,America were below the rates at which timber could be
profitably exported, even under the proposed tariff. In a cir-
cular of Messrs. Challoner, timber merchants, of Liverpool,
it was stated that the price, in 1841, was 4/. is. 6d., and that
the price of deals was Is. 6d. a foot: while, in the present
year, it was only is. :;d. These were most important facts, as
bearing on the case. They showed that the whole of the Baltic
t -ade bad been carried on with advantage ; yet, although a
stimulus hsd been applied to the colonies, the trade had de-
creased. He, therefore, submitted that the arrangement of
the Government was a Mir and equitable arrangement.
Sir C. NAPIER would make some observations on what had
fallen from the Hon. and Learned Member for Bath. The
Hon. Gsntleman stated that European timber was far prefer-
able to Canadian timber ; but this was a mistake, for although
the best Norway timber mirht be better than the best Canadian
timber, yet generally the timber was not better. The Hon.
Gentleman had alluded to the length of time certain frigates
had lasted built of Cenadian timber, and said that they seldom
fasted beyond three yearn. But he (Sir C. Napier) had known
them to last three years and a half, and if the war had con-
tinued he believed they would have lasted seven or eight years.
But many of the countries named in the reciprocity treaty
could sail and build their ships much cheaper than we could.—
( Hear, hear.) Owing to this, we had lost the trarle in the
South 'cas. He hoped the House would never lend itself to
any measure that would have the off ct of injuring the nay).
He should, therefore, give his most decided negative to the
proposition.
Mr. HUME, amidst loud cries of " Oh, oh," said we had
lost the South Sea trade in consequence of the present system,
therefore. so far from the Hon. Member for Bath's motion
being an injury. it would tend to resuscitate the trade. Give
them cheap corn and food, and cheap timber, and
they would produce ships Cheaper, and navigate them
better, than any other country in the world. In
reply to the statements of the Hon. and Gallant Member,
he contended there was no comparison to be drawn between
the state of this country in 1816, the period spoken of by
M. Dupin, as all Eutope was engaged in war, and England
had all the trade of the world. The commerce of the country
requited that differential duties should be abolished, for the
sooner the country returned to a sound and natural system the
better. _ _ _

•
Air. BARING said there were' two propositions before the
House ; one of them was to abolish all differential duties en-
tirely, for which ho was not prepared to vote. More than one
Government had paid a Mferential duty, and he had. con.
tinued it. But it was a very different thing when the Go.
vernment now proposed a differential duty less than he had
br, ught hrward.. This, as he was in favour of high
differential duty, he could support, and he felt a kind
of melancholy satisfaction in finding that his proposition
wat/, not so destructive sa
,bad been suppoged....olcar.)