The Sun.
London, England, 1842-04-14 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON„ THURSDAY EVENING. APRIL 14, 1842.

- • ?•.•
expressed on opinion, to the effect that the new tarati
would not. have the etfect of reducing the price of cattle
but he hid said, that he did think the contemplated:
change would not affect the home market so. seriously as
some parties seemed to apprehend. •
Sir J. GRAHAM said, that he did not know that he
should have thought it necesssry to trouble the House
with any observations upon the subject under its consi-
deration, if the Noble Lord, the Member for Landon,
had not. in his pla,:e,last night, in a very pointed man-
ner, expressed some surprise that he (Sir J. Graham)
had remained silent during that discussion. The Noble
Lord was very complimentary, in singling him
out as a person whose bounden duty it was to
aildrels the House. For his part, he should have
been perfectly willing not that he denied the
great ability which signalised the speech of the Hon.
Member for Liskeard on last night ; but he should
have been perfectly willing to rest the case of the Go-
vern:nent neon the speeches delivered by iiils colleagues
on the two former evenings! He had not the slightest
wish to prolong those debates, which he had reason to
believe, upon testimony which was undoubted, had a
direct tendency, in that preliminary stay of the pro-
ceedings, materially to injure great public interests.—
(Hear, hear.) - Testimony to that effect had been given
to the House by the Him. Member for London ; it had
been given again directly that evening by the Noble
Lord the Member for Liverpool ; and it had not
been dissembled by the Honourable Member for
Hull. If he mistook not it was also acknowledged
by the Honourable Member for Leeds, who opened
the debate that evening The Honourable Member for
Liskeard last night observed, that there had not been a
strong indication of public feeling with regard to the
measures which her Majesty's Government had intro-
duced; and that had been, he believed, still more explicitly
acknowledged by the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat
down. Indeed, it would appear, that all expectation of a
successful opposition to the proposal of the Government.
now tinder consideration. had been abandoned. Th

.teafe of the finanCes of India, and taunted. the Right Hon:Ba-
ronet with having exaggerated the difficulties of the Indian re---
venue as one of the reasons which necessarily led the Govern-
mentto provide more ample resources to meet the deficiency in
the revenue. It had never been asserted by the Right lion.
Baronet that it was the duty of,the British Parliament to supply
the immediate means of making up the deficiency in the Indian
revenue? But the flight Hon. Baronet had stated what was an
important fact, namely, that when ord Auckland entered
upon the Government of India, there was a surplus in the
Indian Exchequer of 1,500,0001. Since that time, in India,
as well as the country, thei e. was a growing and progres-
sive deficiency. The debt had been increased within
the last four years somewhere about seven millions, and at
,the present moment the expenditure in India exceeded the in-
come pretty nearly to a'o,ut the same amount as the expen-
diture of this country exceeded the income of this country,
namely, about 2,500,0001. Now his Right Hon. Friend
flieusght that in the present state of the circumstances of that
country, it might be necessary that the credit ef 'Great Bri-
tain should be brought to bear upon the Indian
deficiency.—(Bear.) Bat he (Sir James Graham) put
it to the Howe, if such a necessity should -vise, whether it
was not the duty of a provident Government to provide re-
sources which might sustain the credit, and by so sustaining it
to Support and strengthen both countries ? The Hon. Gentle
man, the Member for Liskeard, had taunted him (Sir J.
Graham) with respect to the withdrawal of a notice of motion
which he had given in the Session of 1839, relative to the com-
mencement of hostilities on the wes:ern frontiers of India. His

reason for doing so was, that although he had some fears
anticipatory of the present disaster, yet as he had understood
that solemn eng igements had been entered into with native
Princes by the Executive Government cf the country, that the
honour of the British nation was committed to the fulfilment
of those engagements. In that the British army was about to
be used, and that under those considerations, the pressing
of his motion would only have the elect of embarrassing
the Government in the execution of those engage-
ments, and therefore it was that he withdrew it. The
Noble Lord the Member for London had, he must say,
guarded himself from mentioning that motion ; but since a re-
ference had been repeated two or three times, he had endea-
voured to state frankly to the House his reasons for Withdrawing
it. He had never committed himself to any approval of that
policy ; he regarded it with extreme apprehension, and he was
afriid that that apprehension would turn out to be true. The
Hon. Member for Liskeard had brought a charge against his
Noble Friend and himself, that when they were members of
Lord Grey's Government they had consented to a remission of
the house tax ; but at that time they had -a large surplus re-
venue. It remained for the successors of Lord Grey, with a
deficiency of te o or three years' standing, and not treading in
the steps of ;he Government of Lord Grey, to remit a pro-
ductive tax of 1,500,0001. a-year, when they had a growing de-
ficit of 2,000,0001.—( Hear, hear.) He cenfessed he would
much rather be taunted with inconsistency than be, he must
call it, guilty of :he imprudence of those who had sacrificed a
productive revenue to a popular clamour of the moment.
(Cheers. ) Then, again, the Hon. and Learned Member for
Liskeard, taking up a metaphor that had been used by the Hon.
Member for Nottingham, had talked of a will made by the Go-
vernment of Lord Melbourne, and of which, with regard to the
country at large, we must be considered the executors. Now,
he must remind them, that to make an honest will, they
certainly ought to see that they disposed of no property
bat what was their own..—( Hear' hear.) He must also be per-
mitted to observe, that the death-bed scene of the testator was
much prolonged—his approaching dissolution was long foreseen
—his dying agonies were very protracted, and he rau.t say that,
never was there a greater tenacity of life disp!ayed—( Hear)—
after all, strength and power of action had long been past. Then
what were the. legacies that had been disposed of ? Were
Catholic Emancipation and the repeal of the Test Act the pro•
perty of the testator ? He thoeght these were the property of
the Government of the Duke of Wellington and the Right Hon.
Baronet.—(Cries of "No, no," from the Opposition) What
was it really come to this, that, from the absence of all pro-
perty of their own, they were ready to filch that
of another?—(Oh, oh, and cries of the " Test Act," from
several Members on the Opposition benches.) Was not Catho-
lic Emancipation the act of the Duke of Wellington ?—(" The
Test Act." and cries of " Oh, oh.") Well, admitting the
claim to the Test Act, did the Melbourne Government claim
the Reform Bill, the Abolition of Slavery, and Municipal Re-
form ? He contended that these were the property of the Go.:
vernment of Lord Grey.—(" Oh, oh," and cheers ) What,
then, had the late Government bequeathed them? He would
tell them what was entirely their own—the China war—
(Cheers)—a war which, as far as ho could see, they would find
equally difficult to close with advantage, or to conduct with
honour.—(Cheers.) Then there was that shock in India, a
shock under which that mighty empire was still staggering.
In addition to this from them came that disruption of that
French alliance which was the very key-stone of the foreign
policy of Lord Grey's Administration. Then • there was the
Canadian rebellion, and the affair of the Caroline—(Oh, oh,
and cheers from the Ministerial side)—and it was they who
left them the trial of M.Leod, and the question of the Right of
Search. Then, too, came the Boundary question—these were
the bequests they had made to the present Government abroad.
Now, what had been their policy at home ? They had left
them a growing and an accumulating deficiency of five years'
standing, with 1,500,0001. of productive revenue inde-
pendently sacrificed in one year, while they had endea-
voured to bolster up a mistake of this description
by adding five per cent. to the Customs and Excise on articles
of consumption by the great body of the people, hesitating to
tax property, and never touching income. Then they pro-
proposed ten per cent. on the assessed taxes, but the five per
cent. on the Excise, so far from producing an increase in the
revenue, actually led to a greater deficiency than before ex-
' isted, while the ten per cent. on the assessed taxes did not go
far to make up the deficiency. At this hour he should not go into
their Corn Bill and the question of the sugar duties.—(lronical
cheers from the Opposition.) They could not deny that
the sense of the country was against the Bs. fixed
duty on coin. It had been condemned by two Par-
liaments ; it had been decided by that House that
a permanent duty of Ss. could not be levied, and
though there had been a proposition from the Noble Lord
that at should vanish altogether, yet the whole proposal had
been scouted both by consumer and producer. With regard
to the sugar duties, it had been proved to demonstration that,
under the measure of the late Government, the consumer.
Would not have been benefited during the last year .by more
than a fraction—not more than &halfpenny per lb. Nor would
the measure have yielded an increased revenue by securing an
increased consumption. As a financial measure it was a
failure ; the corn measure was not a measure of finance,
except in the opinion of the Noble Lord, the Member
for '1 iverton, but a measure of protection. The point at issue
was thus brought into a very narrow point, and he now begged
to call the attention of the House to the important admissions
that had been made on the other side. First, it was admitted

lion. Gentleman, the Member for Larabeth, had only looked
forward to the future collection of the tax; and while he ad-
mitted that the question of its position was virtually carried, his
hopes were merely directed to the .effect which might be pro •
dueed by its collection. He saw opposite a Right Hon. Gen-
tleman (Mr. F. Mauls) who had been most anxious before the
Easter recess that the discussion should be postponed—( Hear,
hear)—in order that he might have an opportunity of visiting
his constituents, for the purpose of having their opinions upon
the subject.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") No doubt the
Right Hon. Gentleman had had that happy opportunity afforded
to him.—( Hear, hear. )
Mr. F. MAULE—You misrepresent me.
_ .

Sir J. GRAHAM continued.-:-The Right Hon. Gentleman
would have an opportunity of stating to the House how the
case really stood. He (Sir J. Graham) had been told that
the Right Hon. Gentleman had visited his constituents in Perth,
and he had further been informed that very distinct opinions
were expressed to the Right Hon. Gentleman with respect to
the measures of her Majesty's Government.—( Hear, hear. )
He had been told that the Right lion. Gentleman had held a
private meeting to consider those measures, composed of his
private friends, and that among them, the Right lion. Gentle-
man found himself in a considerable minority—( Loud cheers
from the Ministerial benches)—but that he was assured, that,
if he ventured to call a public meeting in the city of Perth, in
the open air, he would have found—to use the expression of his
(Sir J. Graham's) Noble Friend—that the unhappy budget
of the late Ministry, of which he had been a Member, as con-
trasted with the measures brought forward by her Majesty's
Government, would be again " scouted," as it had been at the
general election ; and that the measures proposed by the pre-
sent Government would have received the sanction of an ove .-
whelming majority of the population of the city which
he represented.—(Cheers from the Ministerial benches. )
That, he confessed, was only what he had expected from the
town of Perth. But what had the Hon. Member for Salford
said ? He frankly told them that he partook of this wish of
other lion. Members on his side of the House, that the question
should not be hurried over before Easter, but that an opportu-
nity should be given for the expression of public opinion. The
Hen. Gentleman had also visited his constituents ; and what
was the acknowledgment which he made ? Why he, too, had,
it seemed, abandoned all hope of present success in his oppo-
sition to the proposal of the Government. He said that in the
town of Manchester there was a marvellous apathy upon the
subject—a strange sign of apathy, however, was afforded by
the fact that a petition had been signed by 24,000 inhabitants
of the borough in favour of the measure.—(" Hear, hear,"
from the Ministerial benches.) No public meeting had, how-
ever, been held in that great centre of commercial and manu •
factoring industry, to take the sense of the community upon
the subject.
Mr. BROTHERTON said that a meeting had been held at
the Town-hall. _ _ _

Sir J. GRAHAM continued—Yes ; but he had yet to
learn that a meeting had been held in Stephenson-square, in
Manchester, to consider the proposal ; and he had yet to learn
that there was a msjority of people, having under 1901. a year
income, who were dissatisfied with the proposal, or that the
measure, which had been introduced specially for the relief of
that class, was obnoxious in the opinion of the inhabitants of
Manchester, and ill-calculated to receive their support. The
Hon. Gentleman, the Member
,for Lambeth, following in the
train of the Member for Liskeard, had been pleased to com-
ment upon what he termed the glaring inconsistency of
the arguments used on that (the Ministerial) side
of the House. The Honourable Member for Liskeard
had said, that when Honourable Members on his side
called the tax an inquisitorial one, they were met with a cry of
" China ;" and when they talked of its injustice, the answer
was " Affghanistan." Again, the Hon. Gentleman said that
some stated that the proposed alterations in the tariff would be
imperative in diminishing the price of provisions—that it would
be a delusion to suppose that they would produce such an
effect; while others held o it great expectations that the re-
duction in the prise of the articles of consumption vv-uld afford
a compensation for the proposed income tax. Now, these were
questions entirely of degree. The Hon. Gentleman had, al-
though unintentionally, no doubt, misrepresented his (Sir J.
Graham's) Noble Friend, the Secretary for Ireland. His
Noble Friend had not said that the tariff, as a scale of duties at-
-
reefi i
ng the price of provisions, would be utterly noperative ;
but he had said that the apprehensions that the proposed changes
would be ruinous to the agriculturists of this country, were en-
iirely groundless. His Noble Friend, however, had never
pretended that the, removal of prohibitory duties upon articles
of the first necessity would be utterly inoperative, and that no
reduction in prices would follow. He contended that her Ma-
jesty's Government had acted prudently and wisely in yielding
to the necessity of the time—( Hear, hear)—and to the wants of
a rapidly increasing population—( Hear, hear)—and in taking
effective measures gradually to reduce the price of corn, of
moat, and of other articles of the first necessity. He said that
the time had arrived when it was indispensable that these
things should be done—( Hear, hear)—not only for the sake of
the great body of the consumers, but for the sake of property
itself. —( Hear, hear.) He should observe, first of all, that
the increased value of money had necessarily reduced the no-
minal value of wages ; and again, the rapid increase in popula-
tion had increased the supply of labour. The great improve-
ments in machinery, while those improvements were ultimately
beneficial in increasing the demand fur labour, had also had a
tendency, for a time at least, to throw large masses.
in the manufacturing districts out of employment.—( Hear. )
The reduction in wages, would, no doubt, if it came on hastily,
aggravate the distress of the people ; but the measure intro-
duced by Government would have the effect of gradually
lessening the price of articles of consumption.—( Cr ies
of " Hear, hear." He had no apprehension that it
would effect to an extent that would be dangerous, or
in a manner so sudden as to injure industry, but lie did maintain
that the price of articles of consumption would be moderately
reduced by the operation of the measure now proposed by Go •
vernment. He was persuaded, let that matter be debated and
discussed in Parliament or out of it, that opinion would pre-
vail. He believed that the opinion was fixed and rooted, that
the proposed tariff, taken in conjunction with the present
scheme of taxation, was the only one calculated to promote the
interest of the great body of the people, and the bulk of the
community.—( Hear.) It was upon that ground that it
had received his support—(lronical cheers from the Oppo-
sition benches)—upon that ground, it was, that he thought
an appeal should be made to • the country on the subject,
But to return to the inconsistencies of the arguments with which
that (the Ministerial) side of the House were charged. Let
them allow him to comment on some still greater inconsistencies
in the arguments urged on the other side. It was said by some
that the income tax was a war tax, and only to be regarded as
a tax to be safely used in time of war. The Right Hon. Gen-
tleman, the Lord Mayor of Dublin, bad distinctly used t 5 at
argument. It was also asserted in a resolution by the Noble
Lord (Lord J. Russell). The Noble Lord asserted these
words—" that it has hitherto been osusidered as the financial
reserve of the nation in time of war ;" clearly pointing out. that
this was a war tax. Now, what was the opinion of Hon.
Gentlemen on the opposite side of the House, particularly the
Hon. Members for Coventry (Mr. Ellice and Mr. Williams).
The Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr.• Ellice), 'who had been
formerly a member of Lord Melbourne's Government, had, in
the strongest manner disclaimed that argument. That Hon.
Gentleman said, let them prove to him that there was a neces-
sity for the tax, and he considered it a tax equally to the time
of peace as of war. He ( Sir J. Graham) did not rely only on
the authority of the Right Hon. Gentleman to support his charge
of inconsistency. There were other Hon. Gentlemen, who
had been Members of Lord Grey's Government who were in-
consistent in maintaining that an income tax was only to be
imposed in time of war. Two Noble Lords, the Members for
the City of London and the borough of Tiverton (Lord J.
Russell, and Lord Palmerston) were parties to a resolution
when an amendment at the time Lord Althorp was Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer was proposed for the repeal of the
house tax, which broadly laid down that it that tax were re-
pealed there would be in a time of profound peace no objec-
tion whatever in point of principle to the imposition of a tax on
incomer as well as upon property. It was impossible for the
Noble Lord the Member for Tiverton, to state that this was a
war tax only. He (Sir James Graham) remembered well
the part that Noble Lord took in 1816 in endeavouring to
maintain the property tax at the end of the war. All those
Gentlemen who objected to au income tax in time of peace, he
(Sir J. Graham) would refer to the Noble Lord for an
answer to their arguments, as he had enforced the
imposition of that tax repeatedly, not only by speeches,
but by votes. He (Sir James Graham) was
certain that the principle which the Noble Lord had then
maintained he was now prepared to assert.—(Ministerial
cheers.) With respect to the timber duties, it was mar-
vellous the different opinions that prevailed on the benches
opposite on that subject. Ou this matter, too, the opinions
e? the two Hon. Members for Coventry were as distinct and
as wide asunder as the poles. One Hon. Gentleman de-
clared that there could be no better or wiser proposition than
that of the Right Hon. Baronet respecting the reduction of
the duties on Canadian and Baltic timber. The other Right
Hon. Member said that it was a most prodigal waste of what
ought to form a just revenue to the country, and that no relief
would result from the proposition to the Canadian merchant—
and, in fact, he reprobated it altogether. It might be said
that the Hon. Member for Coventry, who had declared this
reduction of the timber dutiel a great concession to the com-
mercial marine of this country was uninformed upon that sub-
ject ; but the Hon. and Gallant Member for Marylebone (Sir
Charles Napier) had this evening pronounced a glowing
eulogium upon naval grounds en that same principle
which had boor' advocate d by the llqe. Member. for Coventry.
What was the measure which Hon. Gentlemen opposite were
calling for with respect to the timber dirties ? It was the very
measure which Lord Grey's Government had brought forward
—a measure or. which they never ventured tq talie the sense of
the House—and from the mariner in which it had been re-
ceived by the House, was Quntarify abandonded by its pro-
posers. It was said they endealoured to raise the revenue by
taxing articles of prime necessity. The really best course
would be to remit the duty on interior articles altogether, and
to approach the equalization of duties in the opposite direction.
With respect to .a probite duty on legacies and'real Prci'perty,
the Right Hon. Gentleman,. eine Ldrd Mayor of Dublin, e0n-
c41144 with'the Hon; 'Member for Ipswich as to the propriety
of imposing such (14ties. He (Sir James Graham) saw the
aotes, as lie stipposedte reply to him; bat. he IV4l:figite%ure
Wght, Hen, •Gentlenian, the late Chancellor of the Excheqtter,
ttLairiligliS lion, qvitlemati wee opposed to the principle of
those duties. As to the duty on corn, they were all aware that
Lord Melbourne bad expressed himself decidedly in favour of
a protective duty on that article. After those things, would
Hon. Gentlemen opposite talk of inconsistency? The Hon.
Member for Guilford had last night dwelt on the flourishing

Crown—(Hnr, hear)—and especially unfortunate cn a subject
of taxation.—( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet said he
should like to hear of meetings whore those who possessed in-
comes under 150/. a year, would be brought forward to oppose
his system of taxation, which did not reach them, but was
accompanied by a measure which cheapened the necessaries
of life.—( Cheers, ) The observations made by the Hon. and
Learned Member for Bath were not without foundation. That
Hon. and Learned Member had told the House that the Right
Hon. Baronet had dexterously and sagaciously arranged his
plan to cut away the ground from under the feet of the Op-
position. Nov he (Mr. Baring) would perfectly admit that
the measure of the flight Hon. Baronet enlisted on his side
the whole of the physical force party.—(Cheers.) But how
lsng would the Right Hun. Baronet be able to keep up that
union ?—( Hews.) lie would tell the Right Hen. Baronet
that if his experiment succeeded, an agitation would be com-
menced between the working classes and the middle classes
which would compel the Government to give up the whole of
its scheme, and to place all the burden on property alone.—
(P:olonged cheering.) It was said on the other side that great
inconvenience had arisen from the delay of this debate.--
( Hoar, hear.) He admitted that it was so—( Tory cheering)—
hut if any one asserted that this debate had fur one day, or for
one hour, interfered with the tariff, he should beg the House to
remember that the tariff, as amended, was only yesterday laid
on the table —(Cheers. ) He did not find fault with the care
with which the Government prepared their schedules before
they allowed them togs forth to the country.—.(hear, hear.)
But he only answered those who supposed that the

prolonged debate Was the - cause of the delay.
He begged to state, that though he did not agree with all the
gentlemen who had spoken as to the benefit which would be
conferred by the tariff of- the Right Hon. Baronet, he was
not inclined to deny that same benefits would result from it;
and he valued those parts most which were least popular on
the other side of the House. The Right lion. Gentleman
would find him as anxious to carry out the principle which he
laid down for its reeulatioe as any lion. Member in that
House, reserving to himself of course the right of differing
from him upon minor details. The Right Hon. Gentleman,
in alluding to the question of timber, had thought proper to
blame the measure which he (Mr. F. Baring) had the honour
to introduce in the last session. He was not inclined to un-
derrate the value of the reduction of the duty on an article
of such great consumption ; but if he had had to
deal with that article he would rather have been
inclined to reduce the protection in the same proportion
as the Right Hon. Gentleman had reduced it, and leave
the amount of tax upon Canadian timber. He thought tth
Right Hon. Baronet might have appropriated the 600,0001.
which he proposed to lose in a manner which would have been
the more immediately beneficial to flee public interest. He
( Nita flaring) had proposed, to raise 600,000/. by the timber
duties ; the Right Hon. Baronet proposed to lose the 600,0001.
The Right Hon. Baronet undoubtedly made a considerable
reduction in favour of the consumer, but there was 121,0 M.
difference between them, which was one-third of the income
tax, and if a man placed the two measures in a scale he would
find that the balance was in favour of his (Mr. F. Bering's)
proposal. He would remind the house of the reason why Lord
Althorp abandoned his proposition. He had originally
brought forward a proposition by which he made a
reduction, and for the purpose of making up the
deficiency he proposed to raise money by means of timber
duty. lie was beaten on that proposition, and he then
stated that he no longer wanted the money, and he would
therefore take a different mode of raising it. The pro-
position was not abandoned, because it was untenable in
itself. Ibis statement was that he had abandoned his project,
because he no longer wanted the money ; no doubt if he had
not wanted the money the plan which he subsequently pro-
posed, was the plan which he thought would be infinitely
better than the one first proposed. The Right Hon. Baronet
had spoken of the new-born zeal of his Right Hon. Friend
( Mr. Macaulay), but the great advantages which would accrue
from a reduction of timber had but recently been discovered by
him. Lord Grey was beaten upon that point by those who
were now taking credit to themselves for proposing the reduc-
tion.—( Hear, hear. ) The Right Honourable Baronet, in re-
ferring to the means of raising the revenue, said he had expected
an increase from the reduction on timber. The Right Hon.
Baronet proposed to deprive himself of 1,200,000/., which
might be derived from timber ; and vet so great was the im-
provement which was to take place that the Right Hon. Baronet
anticipat d something like an equivalent for the income tax.—
( Hear, hear.) He would make one observation with respect
to the affairs of India. The state of our affairs in that coun-
try was used as a justification of the proposed measures. He
would remind the House that there had been deficiencies in
India at former periods. There was a deficiency of about 13
millions in 1324 yet no extraordinary measures were proposed
at that period. lie hoped he would not be understood as over-
rating the calamity which had occurred in India; he trusted
that whatever heat might be manifested in those debates,
Honourable Gentlemen opposite would allow them (the Op-
position) to hare the feelings of humanity.—( Hear, hear. )
One of the lion. Gentlemen opposite, who had spoken during
the course of the debate—he believed it was the lion. Member
for Lincolnshire—had said that the Whigs had added forty-one
millions to the debt in ten years. Now, he (Mr. Baring) was
anxious that a correct statement on that point should go forth
to the House end to the country. It appeared from the papers
which had been laid upon the table of the House that, cum-
paring the capital of the debt as it stood in the years IMI and
1841, and including, the twenty millions of West India loan,
only four millions had been added to the capital of the debt, in-
stead of 41 millions, as had been stated by the Hon. Gentleman.
But that was not a fair way of looking at the question. As
the time-for which terminable annuities were granted became
diminished, the capital of thd debt became also diminished in
value, and they:were bound in justice to take that into their con-
sideration in dealing with this subject. The capital of the debt
since 1835, including the West Indian loan, had only been in-
creased 84 millions.—( Hear, hear.) But if Hon. Gentlemen
opposite refused to give them the credit of having eman-
cipated the slaves, it was hardly fair that they should saddle
them with the twenty millions which they had been obliged
to pay in consequence, and if they excluded the twenty millions
of the West India Loan, they would find that instead of
the capital of the debt having been increased 41 millions during
the last ten years, it had actually been diminished 13 millions.
That he believed was the real state of the caee. In fact, at the
present moment, they had a sinking fund of two and a half
milltone annually silently at work. It was evident that if they
charged a permanent annuity of 1001. a-year into a terminable
annuity of 150/., that additional 501. a-year was iu fact a pay-
ment made to a sinking fund to get rid of the present
annuity, and the amount thus paid annually to this, which
was, in fact, a sinking fund, amounted to two and a half
millions.—(Cheers.) That was a point which ought
not to he lost sight of when they were deliberating on the
difficulties of their financial position, and were called upon in
coneequence:to:make an increase in the taxation.—(Cheers. )
The Right Hon. Gentlemen had commented upon the indts-
. . _

, e
that the supplies in title of peace must be raised within the tinctnes; of the resolution proposed by his (nfr. Baring's)
year; next, that the expenditure of the country could not be Noble Friend, the Member for London. Now (Mr. i/3.)
reduced. Looking at the state of affairs in China, in Europe, thought his Noble Friend by notians
opteocntl7arta grappling
and in India, no one hid said it would be prudent to reduce with the question. His Noble Friend had ad
the estimates either of the army or navy. Then it had been and fair course which he (Mr. Baring) had called upon
admitted that the time had arrived when loans in time or Honourable Gentlemen opposite to pursue on a former
peace could not be raised with safety. This was admitted occasion, when they had oposed his (Mr. Baring's)
by the Noble Lord opposite, even when there was only financial measures. He had then said to them, "I du not
a deficiency of one million. It was again admitted that the ask yea to say what particular measure you meats to propose,
taxes in the present mode were unequal to meet the expendi- but Ido call upon you to state_
ture, and a most important admission was made even by one of you intend to pursue." Now, on that occasion,
the advocates of the budget of last year, that in spite of the answer of the Right Hon. Baronet
Member for Dor-
credit taken for that measure, it would not have enabled them cheater ? The Right Hon. Baronet, of all
the
world,
to meet the expenditure without resorting to direct taxation. replied, "Oh ! you want to peepterand now over
Right
some the
our cards, and see our
Thelion. and Learned Member for Dublin had pointed out l hand "—(Cheers and
some of the sources from whence a revenue might be derived, Hon. Baronet to come forward, and make the observation he
but :t must either be by a re-imposition of taxes that had been had done that evening proved that, at all events, he must have
remitted, or by putting on an additional per cent'ge on the as-the past.—(Cheers.) The Right Hon.
completely forgotten
his (Air.
sessed taxes. He would point out some of the most productive Gentleman had alluded to his (eir. Baring's) opinions on the
I...;had •Cheacntghde-
taxes that had been remitted ; and he would ask Hon. Gentle- question of imposing a legacy duty on real property. If he
men which of them they would recommend to be re-imposed? (Mr. Baring) had changed his opinions on the sis},:•
Was it the duty on beer; on salt, en leather, on candles, on should have no hesitation in saying at once that
soap, on printed cottons, or coals carried coastwise ? On all them. There could be no reflectin
, titatleneaettweara
upon any 1114-
offrefignaaenuctely.
ber for having changed his opinioni- on
these articles taxation had been greatly reduced, and
was it to any of these that the resolutions ,of the What was right one day in matter
if had changed his opinions on a
Noble Lord pointed? If he meant an increased per wrong another; therefore,.
tentage on the assessed taxes, his objections to it were, first— question of that nature beshould
• have no hesitation in avowing
that the rich miser might escape the payment of it ; that the it. But he had net ()hanged his opinions. Whets an Hon.
rich man, living luxuriously, might by going abroad, evade Gentleman had Reposed to attach a legac dut on the descent
the tax altogether, or by reducing his establishment, with re- of real property, he (Mr. Baring) had
opposedy the proposition
gard to those matt are to which assessed taxes were applied, on principle, and in doing so he bad said that, as the deficiency
might also by this means evade it. But he would not weary had been mainly occasioned by the alteration in the Post-office
the House with going into points that had already been fully duties, from which the agricultural interest had received less be-
explained. The question at issue was simply this, Was the de- nefit than any other, he thought it would be unjust to throw exclu-
tie:ency so extensive, so permanent in its duration, so clan- nieelYupon that interest the hnedenotroakinggood that deficiency.
gerous in its effects, and so urgent in its nature, that He had also said ch* iit was a mistake to suppose that the agu-
e necessity did arise for the imeosition of this tax ? Every cultural cleseee were altogether unaffected by the legacy duty,
Gentleman was perfectly capable of forming an opinion on end he soul V; still. He had said that it was wrong to suppose
this subject. Her Majesty's Government, when they see- that the great mast of the landed property of the kingdom was
seeded to power, asked for time to consider their measures; net taxed, and he was of that opinion still. There was a large
their opponents were very unwilling to concede them that tax impose;{ upon landed property by the stamp duty upon
time; but the nation had been more generous, and ample time deeds, but he had never held an opinion that in any great gene-
had been afforded them. .They had passed in review all the ral financial arrangement it might not be right to impose a legacy 1
affairs of this great country, and they stoad there firmly duty on the suceeesion of landed property ; but if such a duty
united in opinion that the exigencies of the State did require were imPez,e(h he thought it ought also to attach to entailed
the sacrifice of that impost which they this night proposed. property, He concurred with Hon. Gentlemen opposite, when
They had COMe to this conclusion from reasons which were per, they stated that there was no tax to which objections might not
feetly satisfactory to then own consciences andjudgmente. Those be made; hut that was slot the fair way of considering the ob-
reasons that had been stated by his Right Hoe, Friend et the jeetions which had been made to the Ministerial uroposition.
head of the Government. They might dissent from those He called upon the How to look, not to mere arguments,
reasons, they might object to the proposal ; but ho did defy but to fact and experience. The country had had a trial of
them to impugn their motives ;n bringing it forward.— these different teeter ;•, they had had an opportunity of com-
( Cheers.) Talk of a Government seeking popularity by im- paring pee with another—of comparing the legacy duties,
posing an income tax was there ever such an absurdity the assosed taxes, and taxes on consumption, with
heard of? Now, in the history of Parliament, had a Govertie the income tax—and he would ask the House to look at the
ment given such a political advantage to their opponents es result, What, in 1816, was the first tax which the
they had on this occasion. They had prugosed e tee which people of England had called far the reduction !of ?
immediately affected the rich, and the powerful, Vt'hat was the tax for the repeal of which, in 1816, the agri-
and spares the humbler classes, mid those of small cultural class, the manufacenring classes, and the poorer classes
fortunes, while it diminished the protection enjoyed of the country hest posses' almost unanimously? Why
by those who were now themselves possessed of political as. they had selected this very tax as the tax of all others
cendancy. He was bound to acknowledge the generosity of (rate which they chose first to be relieved.—(Loud cheers.)
the support they had received.—(Oh, oh, and hear, hetet,. ) When they talked of what might be the opinions and notions
Be that as it might, they had faithfully discharged their fluty, it; from the result of the tax, he pointed to history and experi-
endeavouring to alleviate the distress thet Wetted woe the enee ; and he told them to refer to the former tax, and to all
productive industry of the country; end lied made an the statements that aceoutpanied it. Let them look to that
easiest effort to maintain time stational credit, in the great petition from the City of London, and it contained the
midst of a great emergency.—(Hear, hear.) lie was names of =tined moonsiderable. There never was such a meeting
quite satisfied that the measures which had been pro- in the history of the City of London, as occurred in 1816, at
posed by Isis Right Hoe, Friend were prudent, and her Me- Which that petition, which he had taken the libert of reading,
jest.y's Government let., it to the House to netermitee what the to the House on a former occasion, had been agreed to, and
course of events should be.—(Heer, hear.) He was satisfied which contained all the arguments against this tax. The lion.
that the measure; which were Ill'ellleeetl were not only defea- Member for Liskieard lead been subjected to no little ridicule
sible, bat necessel._(Tcry eheers.) What Ministers pro- for Wing ennresvetel his opinion as to the result of the tax
posed, they would nut abandon.—(Renewed cheering on the with eesspeat to the public funds. Ho (Mr. Baring) partook
Tory benches.) They would not have recourse to any appraa of that feeling. He believed that ultimately the funds of this
priatlon clause, or to any othershuffie.—( Vehement cheeping country would be as secure as they ever were. He believed that
and laughter.) They placed re.iance on the esisnese of Par- when the income tax was repealed after a certain time they would
liament, and the good sense and patriotism of the people of this and that from all classesa unanimous desire to repair the finances,
country.—(Very great cheering.) and that they enoesid not front any part of the community hear
Mr. F. BA RING must confess that he was much struck, one word eleout a breach of faith. There would be an universal
during the speech of the Rigkt'Hon. Gentlemen, with the de- tletenosination of upholding what was called the public faith
seription which the Ministers of the Crown had given of the of the country. At the same time there were times at
condition of the country.—(Cheers, and great interruption.) which the public feeling would be excited, whets they
A revolt was smouldering in Canada, and hussy had to struggle would find men in arms against the tax, and he
with all the din:kitties of an American negotiation.—(Cheers.) did not thina it wise —he did not think it
But all through the debates, he was struck with the difference secure_, len del not think it worthy of a great statesman to
between the present time and the circumstances under which *see so large a portion of the public funds, necessary to the
Mr, Pitt proposed an income tax.—( Hear, hear.) There, win honour and security of the empire, and the good faith of the
then the mutiny of the Nore.—( Cheers. ) In Ire,end nearly country, by imposing that tax which experience had shown to
a revolution.—( Cheers.) The country WAS in the crisis of the be the most insecure and most unpopular tax that was ever
greatest war perhaps in which thin nation had ever been en- placed upon dee people.
gaged. --(Hear, he,air. 1 Mr. 'Pitt proposed the measures at a Mr. F&RRAND rose amidst loud cite* of " Divide,
time eilifiri, in his own simple words, the hearts of men were divide."—He was prepared to divide, when he had de-1
einking 'within them.—( Hear. ) The circumstances of the livered a message to the Right Honourable Baronet in
country now were very far different.—( Elemer, hew.) In re- i their (the Opposition's) preaenee. (Laughter.) He was
viewing all the statements of our d4celtnes, which he heard glad to find that Hon. Gentlemen on the Opposition had at
from the other side, he mined altogether the embarrassments last thrown of( the eloak in which they had so long
end dangens with eehich the Government of Mr. Pitt was enveloped the.44.1,e11. He was glad to fiusl at last that
eertcunded ; and he missed still more the calm temper with the wino of the working classes wen not mentioned
which that Minister brought his measure before Viso tom that side of the House. When the Howe of Commons first
House.—( Cheers and counter cheers.) He mis,sedtlee haughty assembled, night after night, Hnele It on that (the Op-
spirit—(The continuation of the I_4i(e-fiett kilns: Gentleman's i position) side of the How, declared that they were prepared to
sentence was lost ie,
tic esoeisli Of o 1 eers and cries of " Oh,
,' bear any burdens et\ tinge shoulders provided the working-
oh."l If' hi, recohectionTflifed him, he might be assisted by ' classes could lila a,?,bioved. Night after night, Hon. Member
See 14oble Lord; the Member for North Lancashire, as to what after Ileae 'Member, stated this, and called upon the. Right
was his own language in reference to the Right Hon. Gentles, ' Hon. Baronet, to bring forward measures for the relief of the
man who was now his next neighbour. —(Treneesedowe Clik4-. I working classes. Did not the Hon. Member foe Manchester as.
ing, laughter, and confusion.) When the Right Hon. Baronet i sert that 100 families in that town were starving for want
retired from office, and Lerd CemY succeeded, there was some- ! of food? Did not the Honourable. Member for Bolton as-
th " Oh, oh.") ng abut{( thy; not twin able to pass through London. 1 sert that people in the town which he represented were living
-=.iCheers, and cries of But Ile (Mr. on food fit only (on the dunghill ? Yes, they demanded
Baring) was not anxious to turn back to the arguments , of the kidn
RiAlef, . Baronet to give the poor people food.—
which were used at' that time.—(Renewed cheering and ! (iPt*lli °")els• ) He (Sir R. Peel) said, "I wall give them
mod, but I must have time to pi spare my measures."—(lroni-
interruption. ) The Right Honourable Baronet and others had
taunted the Opposition with not being supportee, by meetings ! cal cheers.) " I never can bring them fairly before the House
out of doors_(nory cheers.) Bet there erne an argument used of Commons till I have time, and I Gall on you, as English-
by the Right Hon, jAmemet, and not by him alone, which he t men and Christians, to go down into the country and raise sub-
considered in • hiltortunate appeal from a Minister of the '