The Sun.
London, England, 1827-06-20 00:00:00

BREACH OF PRIVILEGE.

The Earl of WINCHELSEA in presenting a petition,
said, that be would take that opportunity of making a few
remarks though totally unconnected with the petition
which he held in his hand. Those remarks deeply
concerned the houour and the intergrity of that House,
and in making them he would endeavour to restrain him-
self from adverting to any particular speech in the
other House, anh from the mention of any measure,
though much had been said with respect to that measure,
which had lately been carried by a majority that House,
and which, if it had not been so carried, would have been
likely to be attended with the greatest mischief; and if Noble
Lords were to be prevented from vindicating their characters
within those walls from aspersions thrown upon them in
the other House, it would have been one of the greatest
evils that could possibly exist, and which he was sure
every Noble Individual would oppose. If any indivi-
dual, however, dared to say a word out of the
walls of that House respecting the motives of the
Noble Members composing it, he was sure there was not
an individual present but would to the utmost resist it ;
and if an insinuation had been thrown out elsewhere,
that the votes which had been given by the side of the
House on which he stood were not given on public but on

private grounds.
The LORD CHANCELLOR rose to order. He ap-
prehended there was no Noble Lord in that House who
would feel himself justified in doing that indirectly which the
rules of that House would not allow him to do directly.
It was quite impossible that the House should not under-
stand what was meant by the Noble Lord, and he (the
Lord Chancellor) put it to the Noble Lord, whether he was
not doing that covertly and obliquely which he would not feel
himself justified in doing openly and directly. If that
were so, he put it, not the Noble Lords composing the
House, but to the Noble Lord himself, whether be ought
to proceed ?—( Hear, hear, hear, from the Ministerial side.)
EiThe Earl of WINCHELSEA, in answer to the Noble
Lord on the Woalsack, felt certain that no individual who
knew his candour could for an instant suspect him guilty
of attempting any thing indirectly or covertly. He had
no such feelings, and he begged to say in the broadest
manner that, with respect to any individual who dared
to throw any such aspersions as had been thrown on
Noble Lords, however high his rank, it was the daty
of every Noble Individual who was upon his aide
of the House to stand forward and oppose it.—(Hear,
hear.)—The Noble Lord himself had voted in the majo-
rity, who were for the Noble Duke's amendment, and
he did that under the firm persuasion that it was
for the benefit of the public. He stood there ready to sa-
crifice every atom of property he he had, and to trample
under foot his best interests, rather than sacrifice owe par-
ticle of those feelings which were most dear to him.-
-He felt certain that: the characters of public men, end

of those who had contributed to the safety of their
country must ever be dear to the heart of every true pa-
triot ; but the character of those men had been abused and

that abuse had been circulated, not only throughout this
kingdom, but over the whole world. The illustrious and
...tees in-the TiOtIM,,

by his genius and valour, in a military point of
view, had placed himself and this country in a situation
unrivalled in the page of history, had been basely tradu-
ced—Oear, hear;)—but his character stood by far too
high to be deeply, or in any way seriously affected by all
that had been said or done elsewhere.

Lord GODERICH said, that he could not comprehend
the grounds upon which the Noble Lord proceeded ; he
talked of language used elsewhere, but where be did
not exactly pretend to know ; he referred to certain
public Meetings, and said that language had been there
used, reflecting on the honour and character of their
Lordships, he (Lord Goderich) would certainly defend
any such observations made without the walls of that
House—perhaps from the circumstance of his being so
short a time a Member of that House, he did not feel so
sensitively as other Noble Lords. He believed himself to
be influenced by the feelings of a gentleman ; but it never
did occur to him to be part of his public duty to invoke
those who were engaged with them in it, because of
observations made elsewhere. He was sure that what
fell from the Noble Lord on the Woolsack opposite, ought
to be the rule by which their Lordships should abide, and
even the Noble Earl opposite admitted the impropriety
of the course which he pursued. The Noble Earl hinted,
however, at what gave rise to his observations in such a way
that it was hard not to guess what lie alluded to. He
(Lord Goderich) would not follow the example of the
Noble Lord, because he felt that the duty of the two
branches of the Legislature could not be adequately per-
formed if the Members of either indulged with latitude
in remarks upon the conduct of the otherl He could not
however refrain from saying, that in the course of these
recent discussions, remarks had been made imput-
ing to others, sentiments never uttered by them. He could
not remain silent on this subject whilst he recollected
that within a very short time hack, indeed, remarks had
been made on individuals, and words put into their mouths
which they never gave expression to, and which no one
had authority to say they did.—(Hear, hear.)
The LORD CHANCELLOR, in explanation, begged
to assure the Noble Earl, that he never intended to say,
that he would do indirectly, that which he feared to do by
a direct course.

Earl GREY said, that nothing was so inconvenient, so
dangerous, or so destructive to the character of both
Houses, and thereby to the Constitution of the country, as
the practice of questioning in either House, the conduct of
individuals, in the dicharge of their legislative duty in the
other House, and to cast the worst reflections on them by
imputing to them improper motives in what they had done.
Wherever this practice originated it was a great fault, and
that great fault was much aggravated by the certainty of
its exciting retaliation. Great care should therefore be taken
that no such thing should occur again. The Noble Vis-
count (Godes ich) had talked of attacks, and words having
been cited in this House, as used elsewhere, and also talked
of reflections having been made here upon the conduct of
certain individuals. He (Lord Grey) certainly did hear
severe things said of the character of individuals as Ministers,
but he always understood that the person making them judged,
in the first instance, for himself, and that the public after-
wards judged of the juatice of their application. He
had, however, no recollection of attach having been made
here on the other House : if there were, they did not now
occur to his mind. The Noble Viscount (Goderich)
said that no one could doubt the object to which the
allusions of the Noble Earl were directed. The Noble
Viscount, therefore, could not have felt those difficulties
which he avid did in else opening of the Speech, as to
what called for the animadversions of the Noble Earl.
If those discussions then were to be deprecated,
it well became the Noble Viscount and the Noble and
Learned Lord on the Woolsack to use their influence where
it would be most effectual in preventing the repetition of such
remarks—(Hear, bear. )—And to induce the persons
snaking them to nttend more to decorum, and not to
cast reuexions on that House, which struck at its very
essence, and vilified his character in a manner which had
never occurred before....(Cheers. )....Ministers of State

should not give utterinee. to expressions calculated to mite 4
hatred of this House throughout the country, and to
give rise to those very proceedings, for which the per-
son who caused them was the very one to propose a law
for sending all engaged in them into banishment.—
(Cheers.)
The Marquis of LANSDOWN deprecated a dis-
cussion of this sort, and said that the only re-
gular and proper course of alluding to what
was represented as having occurred at the ocher
House, or at public Meetings, was by calling to
the Bar the individual by whom they had been
published, if they contained reflections derogatory
to the dignity of their Lordships.—(A laugh. )_Noble
Lords mistook him if they thought he recommended this as
a discreet course, it wss one that ought not to be hastily
adopted, but still it was the only regular one.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH said it would be extremely
hash indeed when they knowingly permitted the publication
to their proceedings, to call to the Bar ',the unfortunate
individual who should publish them with reference to
the remarks made elsewhere, he would make no allusion
to them : the contempt they inspired was so great, that he
would treat them with the contemptuous silence they best
deserved.

The Marquis of LANSDOWN explained. He did not
wish to be understood as recommending the coursed of
calling printers to the bar of the House. Such a
course he should greatly deprecate on the present oc-
casion, and could never approve, except on very ma-
ture consideration. Such a course he admitted
be unjust, but he did not hesitate to affirm, tha no-
thing could be more improper or unjust than to attribute
to individual, expressions which those individuals had per-
haps never used, and of which at all events their Lordships
could no nothing.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY wished to know
whether the Noble Marquis would induce his Right Hon.
Friend to publish his speech, in order that it might be seen
whether the Right Hon. Gentleman had used those ex-
pressions he was reported to have used, and which were so
derogatory to the dignity of this House.
Lord GODERICH hoped his Noble Friend would not
answer that question.
I Lord ALTHORP then presented a petition from Bir-
mingham, praying that the Trade with India might be
opened.
Lord FARNHAM presented petitions from the county
and city of Cork, from the county of Cavan, and from the
Presbyterians of Cavan, against any further concessions to
the Roman Catholics.

The Marquis of LANSDOWN presented a petition from
Cork, complaining of their liability to serve as Church-

wardens.