The Sun.
London, England, 1829-04-11 00:00:00

ROMAN CATHOLIC RELIEF BILL.

At a quarter before Seven o'clock the Duke of Wet-
LINCION moved the Order of the Day for the third reading I
of the Catholic Relief Bill. 'There were loud calls for the I
Marquis Camden and Lord Eldon. The latter having
yielded,
The Marquis CAMDEN proceeded :—My Lords, I will
not delay your Lordships lung from hearing the argu-
ments of the Noble and Learned Lord. But having been
so long connected with this House, it must be supposed
that I have had some opportunities of observing the pro-
gress of this great question. When I was sent to Ireland ,

as Lord Lieutenant, I was opposed tecconcesslons ; but
from what I saw in that countryairid from subsequent ex-
perience, I came to the conclusion that they might be safely
granted in a United Parliament. I had agreed with Mr. Pitt,
Lord Grenville, Mr. Wyndham, and Mr.- Dundas, upon that
point, and I might now express my cordial satisfaction that
the Bill has been brought before Parliament by the recom-
mendation of the King, and with the junction of his Ma-
jesty's Ministers. If introduced under a divided Cabinet, I
probably should have taken a different course from that
which I now do, in supporting the Noble' Duke's Bill.
I fervently hope that the measure will be gratefully re-
eaived in Ireland, and whets the subject is fairly considered,
that the good sense of the people of England will be no
longer apposed to it.
Lord GRANVILLE—My Lords, I will not detain your
Lordships with very many observations. But having held
office—a very subordinate one indeed—under Mr.
Pitt, I have hal many opportunities of ascer-
taining his sentiments correctly upon this measure ;
and being one of a Committee which was institute! to
commemorate his principles, I saw with regret that those
who professed to venerate the memory of that great
Statesman, were adopting a line of policy foreign to his sen-
timents. I resisted that policy, and was then driven from
those meetings by the toasts and sentiments which it was
my pain to hear given. But, ray Lords, it is to me a source
ef infinite eratification that those principles are about to
become effective, and I ant fully satisfied that when the
delusion has passel away, the country will reap the
benefit of the change. If I had any doubt on the subject,
the convincing arguments of a Noble Loid in this How*,
and a Right Hon. Gent. in the other, would dispel them
at once. I know from a confidential communication of a
friend of mine, that that Right Hon Gent. would not have
hesitated accepting office under Mr. Canning, but that be
thought there was a deep routed prejudice entertained against
the measure in this country. [ entirely agree with the speech
of a Noble Earl on the other side, that this measure could
be attended with benefit only under a united Cabinet. And I
am convinced that while it will tend to strengthen the
Church of Ireland, it will also give permanence to the
Church 01 England, and augment the power of the nation.
The Earl of ELDON—My Lords, as I have been so
frequently called upon, I shall now state to your Lot dships
the ground of my opposition to this Bill for the last time'
that ever I shall trespass on your Lordships' attention in
reference to this subject. I cannot help saying that I am
much affected by the situation iu which I now stand, and
I hope that your Lordships will pardon me, .if oppressed
by erroneous opiniens, I have ever acted according
to a feeling of conscious duty during twenty years in
opposing measures of this nature. I had opposed them
in conjunction with many who claimed from me the most
sincere respect as web as the most affectionate regard;
but with whom, and deeply do I regret it, I am now com-
pelled to differ. I had opposed these measures against
one of the greatest statesmen and the most talented sti-
nkers this country ever knew, I mean Mr. Pitt, who was
mvipersonal iriend and benefactor.—(Cheers.)—My Lords,
I have said it is the last time that you will be troubled by me
on this subject. However much I may regret it, if this
Bill pass into a law it will then be my duty to eudvavour
to smooth that agitation which I am sure it will produCe.
It will be my duty to teach my countrymen to obey that
which is law, and for myself I can pass the short residue
of my life in retirement. I have been called upon time
.after time to consider this subject, and I would rather pe-
rish this moment, so help me God ! than give my consent
to this Bill. Having said thus much, let me recur again
to that great man whose name I mentioned—Mr. Pitt.
I owed great obligations to him in early life; and I here
declare before my countrymen, that I never solicited any
thing from any man who held the office of Prime Minister.
I have been called forth moat unworthily to discharge func-
tions most laboriously, and I have for many years held
great situations in the State; but I never condescended to
solicit any preferment in my life, excepting that I desired
to retire from the office of Attorney-General, and to sit
down in the situation of Chief Justice of the Common
Pleas, the duties of which I thought I had knowledge and
talents to execute, and to a higher station I never thought
myself equal. I was required to till a higher station, and as
well as I could I discharged its duties. Many thought of me
very indulgently—souse very harshly—but I now say to my
country, and in the face of my country I speak it—l devoted
my whole life to my duties—l did all that the English people
require from an Englishman. England expects every Man
to do his bed, and no man can do more. With respect
to the memory of Mr. Pitt, it is impossible for tne to speak
of him in any adequate terms. Did Mr. Pitt, my Lords,
against the sense of the people ever bring forward this
great question ? or did he ever think of bringing it forward
without securities that would permanently establish the
moral and religious bonds which result from the pire
system of Christianity, as established in this kingdom ?
No, my Lords, he never did ; the securities be brought
forward, and the correspondence published between him
and that King, whose memory I shall revere as long' es
I exist, prove the contrary. Look, my Lords, at the se-
curities he that proposed. He knew what was going on
at the time, and the securities he then proposed were secu-
rities ag rinst the radical doctrines of that day.—( Hear,
hear.)—Give me leave, my Lords, to tell your Lord-
ships, that I have had a great deal to do with
what has ly..!en going on in this reuntry in that re-
spect, and if your Lordships suppose the existence of
the Aristocracy of the country has nothing to do with
what is now going on, your Lordships never laboured
under a greater error. My Lords, having said thus much,
let me state to yeti that eensistency in error ie, in my opi-
nion, one of the greatest faults that can be objected to in a
statesman. But what is the effect of that ? That a man
is bound to state on every occasion what he considers the
line of duty he ought to adopt. I have, my Lords,
on every occasion stated what was my duty. I never have
been able to chtnge my opinion, and I do declare now, as
I hope for mercy hereafter, that I firmly believe this mea-
sure to be more dangerous to the interests of my country
than any that has ever yet been brought forward.
Can it possibly be, my Lords, that I can represent to toy
own mind that I am standing in a situation in which I
should not feel a most anxious wish tq entertain a different
feeling ? I am speaking in the presence of the Noble
Duke who will do me the justice of saying, except with
respect to this measure, he has not found me very
inflexible to any thing he has proposed. I think, my
Lords, I may say with respect to the Right
Honourable Secretary io the other House, who is said
to be the leader there, there never was a man tq
whose feelings I was more attached; and )5 hose conduct
I more revered. And, my Lords, I must say, that the
difference of opinion between his present conduct and mine
has cost me the most bitter pangs I ever felt. My Lords,
let no look now a little at this Bill. A Noble Lord said
opposite, I had thrown out not a pebble, but a
paving. stone.
I never meant to throw one or the other, but what I said
was this, that the country had been taken by surprise,
and the Noble Duke at the head of his Majesty's Govern-
ment cannot but suppose it has so. The Noble Duke at the
close ef the last Sessions talked about securities. There has
been a squabble about whether he talked about them this ses,
sion or no. I must now allude to something that fell front
a Rigl:t Rev. Prelate, whom I have known and respected
ever since I wad a member of the University of Oxford.
He said that the doctrine, that Roman Catholics were not
to be tolerated, was an intolerable doctrine, and he went
on to quote Bishop Hoadly, in favour of c, neession. Now,
I have read a serni,cri by Ho idly, since I last laud the ho-
nour of seeing my Right Bev. Friend (if he will allow
the to call him so, and I wish it most sificerely), alt!tough
I said I never would read a writ d of boadly, if it were
true that such were his doctrines. But I met with a ser-
mon, by Billop I.loadly, preached on the sth of November,
and I take upon myself to say, that if he spoke in the
pulpit sentiments by which he would aye put of it, he
could not have voted on the sa-ole side is my Bight 4cv-
Friend. A sermon more directly adverse to the Romps
Catholics was perhaps never preached or published. The
Noble Duke mistook entirely what I stated with reference
to his letter to th;s Dr. Curtis. I said that it was an un-
fortunate step, comweted wit,l,, the subsequent recom-
mendation (tithe then Lor.d.l.ieutenantof keiazd, th9,t the
.
people should continue in a state of ' are
told that after this Bill is passed agitation will be at an
end—that all will he as smooth as Oil thrown upon' tjie
waves; but after you have granted this claim further dP-
Jet/al- ,ds will be made, which you will not he able to with-
'Stand. say that the letter of the Noble Duke had this
Unfortunate circuinetamre ba'^ooing to it, that it led the
peopia to believe that no such Measure would he brought
forward ; and can there be a better proof that they aid
expect them than the fact that they associated ikdiffereni
parts of the kingdom/ not to further such it scheme, 14/t
to Lid the King's Ministers in resisting it, However pain-
ful it nnif ie a we---and to no man can it be more painful
I how coup) she pe,,,pi.d that this Bill
I tmonbuest 4k
barotight In when tlieY belioye(4 and had every raaaota
heiieve; that the most influential Minister in the other
House would n,ey-e?.. consent to such a change? It is certainly
a most painful thing, lords, to state this, but
when I am arguing
and the Right Hon. Gentleman in the Mlle,'
duty justicebd:twei-4the Noble Duke
to my eountey
ti t is
s a
my q
my coun
as them, and be disregardful of the conse-
quences.at the circumstances attending
t_i
consider that this measure was
b. ws
question,ell as
When o ;,)z
thrown out of this House by a majority of 45, aa observe
t glwhen
live
now that there is a majority of 105 at present for that
very measure passing, bolt my Lords, can I see this

without desiring to know in the most satisfactory manner
bow such art occurrence has happened. Whether the ma-
jority was more or less, is to me a matter of serious con-
sideration. My duty, therefore, is to consider my
own conduct. We were told we should have most satis-
factory reasons for this measure, and also that a disunited
Cabinet was a great abomination. But, my Lords, who
should I know what was to make all those Members, whom I
acted with in-union, dissent from one another ? All I have
heard is, if you would know, you Mind be of the same opi-
nion. My answer is, I cannot be of the same opinion, because
you will not tell nae.—(Hear, and laughter.)—Now, my
Lords, I never was against going into a Committee; hilt is
it right for Ministers to come here and tell us, if you knew
what we know you would be for this measure ? Why, my
Lords, I have known a very peat deal, but there is a great
difference between going into a Committee to consifier
things which it is not very prudent should be dise4ed
to all, and taking into consideration the whole state of Ire-
land. But it is quite a new thing to me to be told, if tou
know what I know you would vote for this measure, and t en
to be in formed we can nut tell you what we do know. Hay ng
stated these general opinions, which would be quite eno gh
to guide me in deciding upon this, I find myself eompe ed
by what is stated in Parliament to call for some fort ter
information. A Committee might have told us who or
any and what securities. are necessary; but here we re
legislating in the dark, upon the assertion of Minist rs,
that they have something behind, which, if once disclo I
,
ied
would compel us all to approve that to which we now le-
cidedly object. I think I am entitled to argue this cities-
tion, not merely under the circumstances at this moment
existing, but as if this were the first day of the session, tind
as if your Lordships had just taken the oath of supremitcy
of the Crown, and subscribed the declaration against tr. n-
substantiation. Let me ask whether it is likely to incr
eja
the reverence of the people for Parliament, to bear this *—
that to-day, at four o'clock, your Lordships swore at re
table, that" no Foreign Prince, Prelate, State, or Pot n-
tete, hath or ought to have, any jurisdiction, superiority,
pre-einiuence, or authority within these realms," and yet
immediately afterwards passed this Bill ? I ant not entering
into the nice distinctions between idolatrous and idoletry,
but I say, that after taking the oaths I have mentioned, a
majority of 105 of ycur Lordships voted in favour of the
measure before us (the Duke of Wellington cheered.) The
Noble Duke may cry " hear, hear !" and I will give the
,
utmost attention to his cheers, but he will no more the
able to persuade the people that he is right in forcing
forward this measure, than he would be able" to persuade
me that be is now in Persia.—(llear, hear, from Lord Hol-
land.) There is no man for whom I feel mere kindness
than for the Noble Baron. We differ, it is true, and I
know his notions. I know, two, that sooner or later, this
Bill will overturn the Aristocracy, and the Monarchy.
Perhaps, he may like it the Letter for that, and I in
aware that it is his doctrine that religious opinions ought
to have nothing to do with political power. Whether I
am right or wrong is another question, but what I have
stated is my notion of the danger to the establishment,e to.
which I have unfortunately given the name of the Consti-
tution. Not only men of great learning in my own pro-
fession, but moat able men in other professions agree with
me. Here I must do justice to a Noble Peer who recently
came among us. He entered in the beginning of March,
and if, like March, he came in like a lion, I must do him
the justice to believe that, like March, he will go out like
a lamb. This leads me to consider the matter of the supre-
macy of the Church with reference to the oath, which de-
clares that " no foreign prince, prelate, state or potentate
hath,7or ought to have (that is the point) any jurisdiction,
power, pre-eminence, or authority within these realms." 1
say, my Lords, that it is against time law, that it is against
reason, that the House of Lords and Commons should in ef-
fect destroy the oath against supremacy. They who contend
for this Bill say there is no harm in giving Catholics seats
in Parliament. Nay, they have gone so far as to say that
the Archbishops of Ireland may have seats here. In
Ireland you have Archbishops and Bishops for every see.
But, it is said, they are not exercising any jurisdiction
whatever. Is that the fact ? My Lords, I say it is not
so, and instance upon instance might be brought for.
ward to prove that it is nut. I will select one. First,
with respect to marriage. Marriage, I have beard said, is
merely a civil contract. If it be so, then I desire to know
whether those Bishops and Archbishops interfering with
those contracts, are not interfering with civil and teal-
pond matters? I have always, my Lords, held it to be
a contract, partly civil and partly religious. My Lords,
at the time I was married—now 56 years since—l under-
stood that Gud had joined us together, and I never could
bring myself to think there was not something religions in
the ceremony. Now, see, my Lords, with respect -to
marriage, what is the spiritual power of the Roman Ca-
tholic Clergy. The law of the land, looking at the con-
tract as a civil contract, says, that persons shall marry
who are within a certain degree. What says the Roman
Catholic Priest? He szys, "No such thing—you shall
not marry if you are within that degree; for if you do
marry according to the law of the land, and as that law
permits you, I shall punish you for offending the law of
the Church of Rome; and if you chouse to live as hus-
band and wife, which the law says you shall do, I say
you shall not so live unless you get a dispensation from us,
and unless that dispensation is confirmed by the Pope."—
This is what the Priests say, my Lords, although I know
they have not the power of doing all this, for the parties
who so marry and live together will be only following the
law of the land in which they live. But how does that
law agree with the law of the Church of Rome ? What
do we do in our Ecclesiastical Courts when the husband
and wife disobey the laws that guide those Courts? If
the laws desire the husband and wife to live together, and
they are not obeyed, those Courts issue excommunications,
which, being followed up by process from our Common
Law Courts, that enforce respect and obedience to the
decrees of the Ecclesiastical Court, produce the desired
effect, and these proceedings - are according to the
laws of the country. No, says the Roman Catholic
Priest, you shall not do anything that the laws of this
country require, if they do not agree with the laws of the
Church of Rome; for if you do I will appeal to the Church
of Rome, and that will set all things right. Our Courts
say you shall be at liberty to do a certain thing, and why ?
because your Sovereign the King of England is at the head
of the laws which be has sworn to administer, and which
, you must obey. The Church Establishments in Ireland ate
invaded as much as the laws are set at defiance. There
are Catholic Arclibiehops in every Protestant See in Ire-
land—there are Catholic Deans in every Protestant Deanery
—there are Catholic Prebends in every Protestant Pre
bendary.e—and there are Catholic Priests, called Catholic
Parish Priests, in every parish in Ireland. . These claim
the titles of the various offices belong to and occupied
by the Protestant
.Clergy. My Lords, it is for you to say
whether this system shall continue—it is for you to say
whether you will have persons in places where they can
exercise their duties, or whether you will hays the Church
Establishment thus invaded by, the Roman Catholic
Clergy ? I do not know, my Lords, whether the Roman
Catholic Prelate to whom the Noble Duke addressed a let-
ter was or was not the Archbishop; but there was a Ro-
man Catholic Archbishop, who disputed whether the Pro-
testant Archbishop was pr was not entitled to hold a See
in Ireland. It is, therefore, evident my Lords, that in
this matter there is, with the Roman Catholic Prelates, a
dispute between the authority of the King of this country
....guy Sovereign—and that of the Pope. My T.ords, the
predecessors of Philip and Mary made it highly penal for
any one in this country to accept benefices from the Church
of Rome. Under the reigns of Henry VIII. and Edw. VI.
Roman Catholics were 'uusi aliens iu this country; but
these Acts were all repealed by the Act of philip and
Mal y, and these. again by the first Acts of Elizabeth.
They were repealed in the reign of Philip and nary, not
as of right, my Lords—that is, not as by the exercise of
the independent right of the Lords and Commons of Eng-
land--but in hmnble aequieseenee with the kindness of the
Legate of the Pope; eo that, if I May so say, the each;
limiting the jurisdiction of the Pope were repealed by the
permission of the Pope, the Perliament being, as it were,
on their knees to his representative. It has not been
denied, and it cannot be denied, my Lords, in the
coarse of this debate, that when a Roman Catholic Parish
ptie,t is sent to his beneke ie Ireland, he has or can, as
far ' as tlie.'PaPal Potirer can &lifer it, ts right to be en•.
sowed with all the pro4ti which; in pidut of law,' do' mite
belong to the nehaistere of the thureh of tii;laiul..' I
could multiply instances, if this were dalied ; but there
can be no doubt of the number of cases in which lot sign
jurisdiction is exercised in Ireland in mitten' of high im-
portance, through the means of the Roman Catholic priest-
hood. iefoevi,iatlve,4!4ridt:,c_fwnittler,:e.:T,eimetn2tooftirtenmgia:nt(eir, ::nf
aSoto-
YevelrteoirgaPltY:oere my undivided alleseiance; claiMs froni hiteseb--
:s7ait st.,
re
e.t e
mal(a.wic 1
itiitsr
discussedes vi tleedtgo m
)e,
onbutyr oLLfooll 1.
Lordships
tsi
C.Sti tikip)esr.e
an;
ease
noint kwnholiwchlwltihee-
i ti'l'er in tine age, irisest;i.ii.4t:3ll it EP pinch ping about,
' that no ChM of men, lint .eSp'ecl'allY thili.fwyes, Will 1,1,ag
remain what they Were called in thv course of year itY
a Noble Lord, " great blockheads"—l say, my l'nrd's in
such a timel v
ik
, that
,bu Ids
t iw
not 4 1
1,, c
know.d whether you will be much
ep
eoseei to velmit the authority of a case from my Lord
Coke's
i y
it seems to me• most iniportant ton,i ionLr Lordships,
4i.d hioie because
it
part of an argument of Lord Coke, to shOw that' the
Sovereignty of the King and his Supremacy was a doc-
trine of the law in the oldest titnee of this country—in
times, when pure Christianity, which (said his Lordship),

Lord Somers observed, was the best inheritance of his Ma-
jesty's subjects, and which they had a right at all times to
defend, but (added hii God forbid they should
defend them by any but Constitutional means. The case
went on to show that this Supremacy of the Crown was
not a Supremacy that originated in the troublous times
of Mary and Elizabeth, but in the Saxon times of the
Monarchy, when the religions supremacy of the Crown
was maintained with the: utmost firmness; and it was a
singular case, that though the men of Kent nude so violent
a resistence to the Conqueror, they yet insisted in his favour
on the supremacy of the Crown. His Lordship then read
the observation of Lord Coke, that no wise, true-hearted
Englishman would refuse instruction, by which he might
see that he had been deceived in adopting the Catholic re-
ligion, and by which he might escape from the error into
which he Lad fallen from his blindfold ignorance. My
Lords (continued the Noble Earl), I use exactly these
reasons for the purpose of opposing this Bid. It is said
that the Bill is introduced as a measure of necessity, and
to meet a case of necessity. If there be any case of ne-
cessity, it is one that has existed for some time, and yet
has never been discovered before. I have not yet said one
word about the Association, except simply that if the
suppression of the Associatieo has. been effected by the
passing of this Bill, it contains nothing, not even the
common preservatives, against its revival. We have
been told that they dissolved themselves, but we have
not been told whether the kings of that agitating So-
ciety do not still continue every day filling up its list of
members with the names of men of rank. If this is, as
I have no reason to doubt it is, the course now pursued by
these people, I say that all pretences about self-dissOlution
are mere nonsense. My Lords, on this subject, I may re-
fer you to a passage of Demosthenes, who, when he was
asked the question—" Is Philip dead ? answered,—
" No ; but if Philip should die, and if you go on with
these modes, you will soon raise to yourselves another
King !" When I speak of the proceedings of that Associ-
ation, I beg leave to say that I know nothing of them, ex-
cept as I understand those proceedings from the insulting,
abominable, detestable, and seditious speeches that were
thus uttered. Yet, notwithstanding all these, not one pro-
secution has been brought on account of them. The
Noble and Learned Lord near me (Lord Plunkett) is
.quite
clear from the blame of having passed them over.—(Lord
Plunkett here said lie had not been Attorney •General dur-
ing the last two years. )—And, thank God (answered the
Earl of Eldon), I have not been Attorney-General during
the lust 20 years. But, my Lords, when I had the honour
of being called to fill that office, it was at a moment when
it became necessary to put down some mischievous Soci-
eties that had sprung up in this country. Laws were in-
troduced into Parliament for the purpose of effecting that
object ; but they would have done nothing towards it if
they had not been considered as auxiliaries to the powers,
and the constantly exercised powers, of the Attorney-Gene-
ral of England, which I bad there the misfortune to be; and
God forbid, my Lords, that any man should again have
to go _through what I then did. I remember one case, my
Lords, that occurred at that time, and that furnishes a
curious contrast to what has lately taken place in Ireland.
There was a man of the name of John Ross, a very good
and respectable man in other respects, but who belonged
to the Convention, and who had received contributions to
carry on the cause of " No King." He was prosecuted
by Sir Archibald Macdonald, who was then Attorney-
General:; and when I came into the office of Attorney-
General, in consequence of Sir Archibald Macdonald being
promoted to be Chief Baron of the Exchequer, that prose•
eution was carried on ; and what did the Court of King's
Bench say to him ? Why, my Lords, instead of the three
months' impri.onment provided by this Bill against the
members of the Association—a punishment, by the bye,
that they may escape, for you can only inflict it if you get
hold of them, and there are no provisions for getting hold
of them—instead of that, my Lords, the Court of King's
Bench said to Mr. Ross, that the words he had uttered at
the Meetings where he had been were highly seditious,
and they ordered him to be imprisoned for three years.
—He would now draw their attention to the case of
King O'Connell—(a laugh)—who would doubtless ere long
be in possession of a princely revenue, if he had it not
in his pocket already, which was by no means improba-
ble. When an Act was passed for the purpose of putting
down the Catholic Association, King O'Connell called it
an Algerine Act. Why was he not prosecuted for this?
Then there was the orator who spoke at Penenden Heath,
and to whom he would not now particularly allude ; but
had not he traduced all the established institutions of the
country, and yet been permitted to escape without a pro-
secution—( Hear)—although lie had exhausted almost every
opinion of vituperation which his imagination could suggest.
And yet they were told that they must consent to this
measure, because the Government know of matters which,
however, they do not choose to communicate. If their
Lordships would read Barrow on Supremacy, they would
find there more arguments than he could offer, though he
were to speak until he were exhausted. The oath
which every one of their :Lordships took, prior to
taking his seat, was that he believed that no
foreign prince, power, nor potentate had or ought to
have power in these kingdoms. Now when Dr. Doyle
published his pastoral letter, be seemed to think that un-
less there was a Catholic King and Legislature, the affairs
of the kingdom could not proceed as they ought to do.
He would suppose that they were now speaking in 1688,
instead of 1829 ; and if their Lordships would look
to the proceedings of the Convention in the time of Wil-
liam, both before and after that Convention was turned
into a Parliament, there was not one of their acts which
did not require a declaration against transubstantiation,
and although they did not require it to he sworn that the
doctrines of the Church of Rome were damnable and ido-
latrous, still they required it to be sworn that a cer-
tain portion of their creed was idolatrous.—(Hear.)
My Lords, I entreat of you to consider the effect that the
decision of this great question will have on the minds
of the majority of the community ; the moral and reli-
gious community. I call it moral and religious, my Lords,
because it undoubtedly is so acknowledged to be. Con..
eider, I say, my Lords, what the effect will be of intro-
ducing into this House five or six Catholic Peers ; by the
introduction of even that number, my Lords, you sanction no
limit to the practice. (Hear.) Then with respect to the other
House of Parliament. I know how that House is filled. I
may be told that 90 Roman Catholic Members will be the
extent of the number returned by the forty-shilling free-
holders of Ireland. But I would ask, my Lords, what, in
the name of God ! after this Bill passes into a law,
is there to prevent as many Roman Catholics taking their
places in that House as there are seats to accommodate ?
(Hear.)—It has been said that the present question is not
a religious one ; it is, my Lords, a religious as well as
a political question, and that in a very greet degree.
My Lords, what has Dr. Doyle said, that we, that is
the Roman Catholics of Ireland, must have a Roman
Catholic King; but what has Kenyon, and Thurlow, and
Ellenborough, and many more said on this subject ?—and
I would pray your Lordships to remember what they said,
and what I have said and perhaps foolishly published—(a
laugh)—and I would have your Lordships also at the
same time to look into the history of the country at
the periods when these religious contests between Ro-
man Catholics and Protestants have been going on ;
look also to the period of the revolution in 1688, and there
is not, I am sure, one of your Lordships who will contra-
dict me when I say that it is the duty of every Govern-
ment to support an Established Church ; that has
been my opinion from the first, and I certainly do not
hesitate to tell your Lordships that it shall remain so to
the last.-411ear.)—I do not harbour any to-
wards the Roman Catholics, Itor to the professors of
any other religien; but I will tell your Lordships that
I had touch rather that you would establish a new religion
altogether, than you should introduce that religion, which
I am persuaded is calculated totally to overthrow the
Established Church in Ireland as well as in England, I
. ,
have no hesitation in saymts tuet.,—(Bear.)—Torn your
Lordship' attention to the Act of Union ; it is impossible
to look at that Act and say that any Papist can ever have
a right to sit in Parliament ; look at the different articles
in that Act, both with respect to the Church of Scotland
and the Church of England ; the object of these articles was
to preserve the fundamentals of the Protestant religion entire;
that Act also distinctly 'states that no Papist, or suspected
Papist 0.01 be ci.pable of electing, o of being electetl; and
Snell, I din well inenired, is the underelanding in Scirtland
at the present time, My Lords; if in modern phraseolegy
you are settling the question, I beg to remind your
Lordships that those laws, when they were framed, were
intended never to be disturbed ; by the adoption of these
measures I am convinced that you will break in upon the
present and most holy system of religion on the face. of the
eertia alai were I to vote for it, I should be giving a vote
Which will'lead to the utter ruin of the Church of England.
The Noble Earl here read extracts from various writers, to
show the necessity of protecting the Protestant establish-
ments by legislative enactments. His Lordship then eon-
tiuusd :—My Lords, I inn fully convinced no true Protes-
tae;'it. he eiyea ttlhi?st tmtat consideretion 'Which its
importance demands, can support time Bill, God forbid
I that this Bill should endanger the best interests of the
Protestant religion. I hope, my Lords, I sincerely trust,
my anticipations may not be realised, but those we have
deal with are much too wary to chew themselves in
their true Poioi,i's is not immediate
danger that I anticipate, it is dagger of tettitere tray, but. t
have no more doubt, my Lord, that dangSr will
at some day or other ensue—l have no more doubt but

that my. worst fears will be realised, than I-ant at this tair
ment 'that I arn'standingln dos' House. You hear,
*AO
Lords, the words of an aged man, wlmmust soon be
to his great account ; and with, that imitessiort age,
my mind I again most decidedly, and eenscientionelfkieit: I
that I have no doubt of the bad effects thit these tneaster:
will produce. I cannot give my consent to this meson'
I consider it necessary that I should, withhold, it, joy the
safety of the Crown, the Aristocracy, 'and the °Petit':
tion of this country.—(Hear, heer.)—And sooner, 01
Lords—(said the Noble Earl with great emphaeiei
striking the table with great force)—sooner, than I Wel
give my vote to this measure I had rather hear drat ,
should not be in existence toanorrow morning. never
will be a traitor to my King, to my Country, and its L;O6.
stitution.—(The Noble Lord sat down amidst .ionsider
able cheering.)
The Earl of HARROWBY and the LORD CHANCELLOA
rose together,—the latter gave way, and
The Eat 1 of HARFLOWBY proceeded :—I will nett
my Lords, enter into all the arguments touched lira 14,
the Noble and Learned Lord who has just sat down ;
there is one observation that fell from that Noble and
Learned Lord which in my opinion was an unjustifiable
attack on one of the greatest Statesmen that ever adorned
this country, I mean the late Mr. Pitt ; that great moo
i
had never, as the Noble Lord seemed to insinuate, change'
his opinion on this great and momentous subject. -Heel:me'
nued up to the time of his death, the firm,- the zealous'
and enlightened supporter of the' measure. The Nob
and Learned Lord had said that Mr. Pitt had never eor
teumlated bringing forward a similar measure to the Orr
.
sent without sufficient securities for the Protestant
But if the Noble Lord would look back and consider the
nature of the securities proposed by that great Statesman
he would find that there was not a single word that weal;
in any manner alter the principle of the Bill. Note,
Lords, there have been a great many petitions preset:lto
against this measure, there have been a great many objectied
raised against this Bill, and great exertions bad been made
throughout the country, to persuade the people thralls'
effect of this measure would be to change the Protestant
religion to the Papists. Had the measure been properly es'
plained to the people of England, and been explained
throughout the kingdpm, and understood, Ihope, 80011°1'e a'
the passing of this Act it will be, instead of raiaiag foolish
alarms on false grounds, and thereby causing petitions to be
presented against concessions, I have no doubt the great
mass of petitions would be of a contrary nature. My Lordh
I must say that all the arguments I have heard io
opposition to the measure are, in my opinion, most
1 think nothing could be more unjust than to say Rowe
Catholics were not entitled to political power. The Act 01
Elizabeth never intended to keep those professing the Cutler
lie religion out of Parliament, it was only intended as a tea'
porary measure, but it was idle to suppose that they never
were to have a seat in this House. There is nothing in the
arguments of Noble Lords that produces any fear in my toiled
for the safety of the Protestants.—( The Noble Earl hers,
read a great many extracts from the writings and speeches 0' I
the late Lord Clarendon, the purport of which went t°
chew that there bad been great intolerance in the pr°'
fessors of the Church of England, as well as in the
Catholic Church, and combatting the opinions of &Pe
who thought that danger, would ensue by giving the°
political power. )—My Lords, if any other arguments were
wanting, I will refer you to the many Noble advocate
of the measure between the years 1563 and 1673, o'6'
who for their piety and worth were never excelled. 9efr
ing that time the cause was ably supported, and many ~
tholies were employed by the Government with great tg
vantage to the State. The Noble Lord gives it es
ill
opinion that the King cannot give his consent to this 13.
without an infringement of the Coronation Oath, and that
the passing of this measure would endanger 00,11
of his Majesty to the Throne of these
hear.)—l trust no such thing, and am decidedly o
agt"Pd-
such opinion. Another argument that had been rrie
use of was the great danger that would exist from the
power possessed by the Roman Catholic priests. Thee
power had been much misrepresented. It was said that the
people who were Catholics were taught that .they were net
bound to pay allegiance to a Protestant Sovereign,'
This opinion had been long ago exploded, even the POP°
and different Councils had long since expressed differese
opinions. It was idle to suppose that the. oath
which the Roman Catholics had taken respecting not.
keeping faith with heretics, they considered in a lasts' ,
sense to be binding. Any one acquainted with the Ilia'
tory of Ireland must know that there was not th 6
least danger in that oath. My Lords, .have
not had sufficient experience mad history to know that '
the Roman Catholic religion was not changed, the Prefe"
eon of it had ceased to be practised; of that intolerance,
of which so much was said for centuries,therewas no instal
of their unlawfully seeking to obtain-
they had sought for such an opPOrtunity the-Revolution
of 1688 would have been a very proper time for, such pur-
pose.that thetim Catholicaßoftourautheßogi .Catholics Weg
s,
So
driven from the Throne of this. kingdom by a Protestant
King. hThatenit
was was
thehave shown their power, but even then the Pope was tluit'e'
Roman
but it would not be said his power was less then than it w 0
at the present time, therefore what danger ? Again* 11.:
later period, when George 11. was excommunicated. by
Pope Boniface, what was the effect of that ? The Pfq
remained tranquil ; there was not the least attempt
rebellion, not even when a King of England 14'1;
clap
excommunicated. One hundred Years had since ealr--
;
ita I yet there had been no instance of revolt agvolt th
authority of the Crown. Is net this sufficient, my Lot
to to prove there is no danger to be.anticipated ; that the
is no fear of the attachment of the Roman Catbolies.ittL
e
Constitution of the country, when such, instances as
mentioned, have had no effect in shaking their loYn,le
When Rome was taken, the Pope excommunicated
persons who achieved that enterprise and opposed the 'l').
vet ntnent who ordered it. My Lords, the question WI
of command and obedience. . A. may command, but af'
B. obey? We may "command spirits from the vasty (1?ell'
but will they come ?" That, I conceive, applies Pertf:d-
larly to the state of Ireland hitherto. We have 111"% t
laws, which it was the duty of the Executive Govern
uneb-a
from
measures have carried into effect, but that could only.-be do
measures of coercion, and were not complied with fro"'
willing obedience. Now, the main question, after, all, fer
your Lordships' consideration is, is there any thing '1
this Bill which endangers the safety of the Established•
Church ? It is said that the Catholics will not be contests
but that they will push their wishes to the utmost extremity'
and to the subversion of the Protestant religiOn• Thie to
the argument employed by the opponents ef the Dill; o.t
if much danger really exists, I ask your Lordship; how t,
is to be met, but by oaths ? The Noble and Learnt"
Lord (Eldon) has said that Mr. Pitt would never have
consented to a measure of this nature unaccompanied b
securities. We can have uo security but.hy oaths. 131)
it is contended ahat the Catholics are not to be believed oa°
their oaths. I ask your Lordships on what ground, this
assertion is made? I, for my part, can find -floe'
What they are seeking for now is that which. gives semi
thing to them, and takes nothing from any man, It .will
only Serve to place wen on an equality of political right'''
upon whom we have looked down with loath. This
measure will give security to the Protestant. Church in
kith countries ; it will strengthen Governinent iu Ireland,
give vigour to the laws, form a guarantee for the safety
property, and impart confidence to the resident aristomort
My Lords, an ulterior result has been auticipale4 by u
Noble Lord opposite as an argument why this Bill o°o'
not pass. He thinks that a rebellioti in Ireland
must follow as a necessary coneequeiace. I cannot jute'
gine bow he means to prove the inference he Ilse
drawn, for I cannot think what could tempt the peePle'
of that country to risk their lives, liberties, and their
newly recovered rights, by attempting so hopeless and
so piofitless an experiment. Yet this is the
danger
which some contemplate to the Established Church. I'4
that which binds a people in gratitude and affection
to the
Government of a country is the best bond for their alle-
giance, the best security Protestants can demand, I r Cabi
dailies can give. If ever I opposed the measure, 06.1
, scarcely indulge in such gloomy anticipations as those whit:
have been uttered in your Lordships' House, and I wart t,°"'l
fideut that if this measure should Ll\s3 hit° it liW;'ll'C*l
who have done to will find thei-' appribeniriensgroundieee'
BO' if it should be' i'ejecfed,. and those calamities she
Id
follow on' its rejection' whieh have been predicted, what
ivill be the responsibility that must attach to the onP
nents of the measure. 1 might go on to illustrate the
by a reference to other countries, but that I 15ei
I have trespassed too largely on your Lord,bir
attention. However, before I sit down, there are one or
two topics to which I must revert. A 1`411.1e,i
Lord has objected to the manner in which thia Riii
been brought tbeward, and also to the ;:itne of intro;
dtietion. it is contended that both are objectionable.
is alleged that his Majesty's Ministers could not,, CO'
eistently with their duty, as responsible advisers of tile
King, have introduced a Bill, the effect of which !quid
fip to s;di‘ert that Constitution which owed its origin t°
the revolution of 1688. In terms of congratulatieer
Nolte Lends have spoken of that revolution, and they
claim these who achieved it us their ancestors and relative"
whilst they thought proper to apply the term of apostateet9
the supporters of this Bill. But I would beg them t o boo' J 7,
T
mind that, if the Tories of that period kaji,. not s,postafteSt
Low would that • revointioo- balm ,beeti: tidy,,afit ;t401.t
DO, my Lords, when we are told a divided .Cabinet i's'
materially hastened thin great measure, and when this
•

ss .-heo hte _
,Torwou on an- occasion like the present,
51y'cannot but regard it as the greatest
wettings I feel . this has-- been brought forward in
bay lo which it has never been brought forward before.
"nog) able, my Lords, to bring forward the measure and
"al On others to make sacrifices, as those who have first
set the example, and made a sacrifioe stf their best feelings.
It is true that those who for a number of years have
laboured together have thought proper to divide on this
great measure. We ought, my Lords, to consider the nature
of things, and the nature of the case. It is not a state of
armed men to be put down by arms ; it is a state of things
unheard of before. I think the measure would have been
better if passed
.earlier, but it had better be passed now
than at ,a later period. Ido not believe that this.
or any other measure, singly can organise those disorders
Which have existed in that country, and at once restore it
to tranquillity, labouring as it does under such a corn-
Plieation of misfortunes. It is said, has it not been in a
state of confusion? my answer is, it is tree it has been
in a state of confusion from a very long period until
now. But the reason has been that there has been that
state of exclusion which would irritate any set of people,
and throw any country into confusion. You have
deprived people Who have known better days, of that
which they have considered their rights. The measure
which accompanies this will, I apprehend, be a great cor-
. reetion of the evils that have existed, for aristocracy has
always
,a very great tendency to throw into a state of con-
fusion' the lower classes of the people. Now, I really
think that the Bill before your Lordships, though it
cannot alter the distressed state of Ireland iu every
respect, yet it will greatly benefit and contribute to its
happiness I am perfectly satisfied that those Noble
Lords, who have with such exertion opposed this
measure, would sacrifice that oosition if they thought such
seaults would follow, and that this measure would be
the alaa/c, as I have no doubt it will.
The Bishop of Noitwicia and the Duke of ATUOL rose
together.
The Bishop of NORWICH had precedence—He felt
the greatest pain in differing from the Noble Lord who had
spoken first. Ile was sure that if the Noble Lord had read
Locke and Towgoo-1, to which he had referred with the
attention of which he was capable, he would not have so
long argued the narrow-minded conclusion which he had.
With respect to the sermon which had been referred to, he
could only say, that a minister of the Gospel very
ill-
remembered that peace and good-will, who could acri-
Illostioultly oppose that measure which was to promote the
Peace and good-will, which was calculated for the good of
all mankind.
Lord ELDON explained.
The Duke of ATHOL rose to answer the question of
the Noble and Learned Lord, how it came that there
should be a majority on this occasion, made up by those
Who had voted in a different way? When this measure
Was brought forward he considered that Ireland was
cas the very edge of a volcano, and he was anxious
that it should not break in upon it. In 1774
be succeeded to the title of his family. Since
that period he had been a zealous member of the
Church. of England, and he never bad nor ever would
dOSOY thing but what was in favour of that Church. In
the votes which he had given he was actuated by a sense of
thitaa He truly believed that those who opposed the Bill
would soon have their appreheneione set at rest with re-
spect to the Church of England. He could not let this
evening pass without making some observations on the ex-
citement which had been used, he would not say in this
House, but by public advertisement ; and sentiments that
had been tsptied to create a spirit of discord. The Noble Duke
hen..proceeded to read a parapraph cut from the Edin-
burgh Evenin9 courant, stating that the anti-Catholic
petition lay for signature at certain places. Then it
proceeded to say—i, People of Scotland, think what
it is to have a Popish Government, a Popish Par-
"aulent, a Popish Provost and Magistrates, and a
Papist Church."—(Here the Noble Duke had great dif-
illenity in reading the paper, and there was great laughter
and confusion.)—The Noble Duke continued—there was
greet excitement created by this. At the age at which he
. had now arrived, he did not think it possible for him to
tee • this Bill fully enforced, but many who had voted
for and. against this question would have the satisfaction
nf seeing that they bad done that which was consistent
With propriety, and which would contribute to the happi-
'Wee of society. Those who had voted against it would see that
they, hid formed an erroneous impression, and would he
"Ist. first to regret the position they had taken.
Lord ABINGDON conceived that this Bill would
take away the benefit of the Protestant Constitution.
Re considered this the act of a Minister who brought it
forward for his own ambition, rather than the interests of
the country. Many of his best friends were Catholics,
and he begged to express his public opinion, separated from
ti4S 'private friendship and esteem which he had for them,
.7(Hear, hear.)—ll li e ne there to discharge a public
protestant,
The Constitutions, to all intents and purposes, was
rruteekint, and by Protestantism he understood the King
Protesting against any interference of the Pope either with
the civil or temporal affairs of the state. To this he
objected, and would continue to do so.---(Hear.)—The
question had been most ably discussed. He had much
more to say, but would not occupy their Lordships' time.
for 0 years he had been a staunch supporter of his Ma-
jesty's Ministry. Had similar measures to the pre-
sent been brought into their Lordships' House at an-
Other period, it would have been impossible in the
Government which had gene before to have succeeded in
carrying the measure. He should be glad to know after
the Passing of this Bill what the Noble Duke at the bead
of the Ministry would do, if the Pope with his seven
',Vied boots were toanarch into the door of the House—
(Great laughter. )—afterwards present them to the Noble
Lord. on the Woolsack, and afterwards make the best of
his way out again. He could not thick it impossible,
but by this Bill the King might be separated from the
Throue, who ought to be maintained there in the midst
of a Protestant Religion. After a national religion had
been impressed into the ntinds of the people rational policy
Would be adopted. He had intended to have gone at
,
Nth into this measure, but it was impossible to make
himself clearly understood, and he would therefore lease it
te the better pert of the House to decide.
Lord hIIDDLETON had been for twenty-nine years a
member of this House, and had never troubled it by
teeing any thing on the subject of reform. Having been
4rtp supporter of the Protestant religion, he hoped their
kordshipe would permit him to state the reasons why he
nut- vote against the third reading of this Bill. He
t6old give his conscientious and independent vote for
measure, and having said that he should say:no more ;
halthough he agreed with the principle of the measure, yet
e asps not quite 'satisfied with the securities proposed.
The Duke of NEWCASTLE—I thought that the rea-
t''hTs which the Noble Duke gave for bringing forward
.14 measure seemed so trifling, and so perfectly nu-
-1,4t°,17, that he was quite astonished how Noble Lords
,s_7(l'd at all feel satisfied with the statement. Is it
Erse ilde for any man who loves his country, who loves
,94 God, and who has a regard for his King, to
„tante down to this House, and propose to upset all the laws
t'f our country, and break down the whole of our Protestant
Constitution—and fur what ? For those trifling reasons
Riven by the Noble Duke ? Why, it is so inconsistent
limit I should have supposed that no person could have
,tebniittpd to it. Nor can I conceive any time more dun-
&roue than the present for time passing of such a measure.
`Lord ROUEN—i trust that pus. Lordships will forgive
Ile for offering myself to the attention of your Lordships,
.which will only be but fora very few minute, but I could
hot -Content myself with giving a silent vote on what I
ttoseeive to be the most important question that ever
'4lO e before the House. For the last 18 years I have
been in the habit in this and the other House of giving
decided vote against the Catholics. It has ever been
./41' opinion that it is impossible to give security to the
ier°tesnt Church except by exclusion of Caolics. With
'rest fteealings I came to the consideration ofth the question
Zith the recommendation in his Majesty's speech before
's and with many pitiful attempts endeavoured to lay
3d.
former opinions, and put away former views, inquiring
feelings whether I could alter my sentiments.
Y.Lorda, I am now free to corafess, that after 'loch in-
,ttritY and such deliberation—that after examining into
tWe new features which I was told the cause pre-
-44:40; and which had been the occasion of the great
lifa,nge that
,had taken place in the opinions of many
Lordehipi--I confess I cannot change my
M,._ett'a• I cannot nee any thing to induce me to sup-
‘e titer is lees dan now in ving to e oman
e„h g
ohm the privilegeser which they demand,th than there
.i when this question last occupied the House.
tv!, Lords, I aio one of thoce who differ from those
bruel e Lords Who ceinceiee that the 'settler:yet
%._l„hil question will give tranquillity to Ireland.—(Cheers. )
h think perhaps a momentary calm may be produced,
41 I do believe it will not have the effect of removing any
tlntt POWer which the Catholic s
ex have over the people,
Ido believe the effect of the pected passing of this
uute has already caused an increase of the emigration
vhe Proteetants of that country. I believe the Catholic
-&ion is the same, has the same object and spirit, notwith-
. log whit has been stated respecting it, that it had in
V 20.1 eonceive the time objection exists now that existed
.-ure. le the PWe of the teleaerereeand l'hae,e VT*
• 6
• las g I in Ireland to know that this measure never will,
`never can, satisfy the Catholics.—( Hear. )--My Lords,
IN been told se by themselves, they have declared it

openly -and manfully, and I honour_them for it.--(Hear,
hear.)—l agree with a speech made by a Noble Lord
the other night who sat On an opposite side, that after
your Lordships have granted this ivestion, there will be
behind it a Catholic Question still to be disposed of.—
I believe the existence of the Protestant Church in
Ireland will be the next question you will hive to consider.
I know the Church of Eaglathl mid Ireland are but human
institutions, and as such, are liable to error. I cannot
but lament the line of conduct which has been adopted on
this subject by some of the Right Rev. Prelates—(Great
cheer•.)—l cannot but regret when, looking to that
Bench for the champions, not of a Protestant party,
but of a Protestant faith—when I heard it stated in this
House that PoPery was not idolatry—when I heard it
said there was little difference between the Popish and
English Churches—when I heard it said, if a man be
but sincere it matters not what his religious views
are—when looking to that Bench for the support of
wisdom, I cannot but deeply regret, my Lords, that
I should have heard only that which was calculated
to distress the feelings. I have read in history that there
have existed Churches who hive increased in worldly
splendour, but who have forgotten their first love. I
say nut that this is the case ; hut if it be the case with
the Church of England, I believe the passing of this
measure will be a very powerful rod in working its
destruction. With regard to this Bill introduced by the
Noble Duke, I differ in opinion with Noble Lords upon
it, with whom I shall vote on the present occasion, for I
think, conceiving that no securities can be given to the
Protestant Church but the exclusion of the Catholics, it is
the best Bill that could be presented. If your Lordships
once admit Catholics into Parliament, I think you cannot
throw the door too open, nor legislate too liberally for them.
I give every credit to the Noble Duke and the Right Hon.
Gentleman, an early friend of my own, in another place,
for the anxieties they have felt in bringing forward, and
the motives that have induced them to bring forward
this subject, thought I cannot agree with them. There is
alai another part of the Bill which makes it more
acceptable in my view than in that of some Noble Lords,
which is, that it no where recognises the power
of the Pope even in a spiritual manner. However
much too some Noble Lords might be inclined to
think the payment of the Catholic Clergy a step of expe-
diency, I conceive: your Lordships never will do such a
thing as to pay men, however respectable in themselves, to
preach and teach doctrines which your Lordships declare
superstitious and idolatrous. My Lords, I cannot
sit down without congratulating the Noble Lords on the
opposite side of the House, which I do fiom my
heart, on the victory they have obtained. I have been op-
posed to them throughout my political life; but I honour
them for the end they have accomplished by their consist-
ency, and would not pluck a single leaf from the laurels
they have won ; particularly one Noble Earl, who
is not now in his seat, whose fairness on some occasions

has left him almost single in maintaiaing this cause. My
Lords, I shall as conscientiously give my vote against this
measure as the Noble Lord will who has just sat down, in
favour of it. I conceive it to be a sacrifice of Protestant
principle to temporary expediency; therefore I shall
take the opportunity of entering my protest against it.
The Bishop of LICHFIELD next addressed the
House, but in a tone of voice so low as to be almost
wholly inaudible below the bar. We understood him,
however, to contend that the Bill might be passed with-
out any danger to the Established Church. If he was in
error in this opinion, he would at all events have the satis-
faction of reflecting that he had acted to the dictates of
his conscience. He trusted, however, that the most
beneficial effects would result from the present Bill, and
he also trusted that the Noble Lori.' (Eldon) who had for
so long a period strenuously opposed, and upon conscien-
tious grounds, the passing of such a measure, would yet
live to see the day when lie would rejoice that the disabi-
lities of the Roman Catholics had been removed.

The Duke of NEWCASTLE explained, but the cries
of question were se general that we could not hear a syllable
of what he uttered.

The Duke of WELLINGTON and Lord FALMOUTH
both rose at the same moment, but the latter gave way,
and the Noble Duke said that he had required no explana-
tion from the Noble Duke on the cross benches (Newcastle).

Lord FALMOUTH then rose, amidst reiterated cries
of question, which for a considerable time prevented
him from obtaining a -bearing. He at length, however,
succeeded iu obtaining the attention of the House, arid
proceeded to the following effect .—He did not mean,
he said, to follow the Rev. Prelate through all the argu-
ments he had advanced, for at least it was but an odious
task to follow the arguments of a Rev. Prelate in favour of
the Catholics, and he should do so as concisely as possible.
The present Bill, which he supposed would be brought to
a conclusion that night, was carried through the House in
nine short days. On no former occasion had a Bill at all
approaching to such importance been so hurried through
the House.—(Hear, hear.)—ln nine short days would
that far-famed Constitution be unsettled which was
Ithe noblest work of patriotism, consummated by wisdom.
He was not there to compliment the conduct of those who
turned round on the principles they had advocated all
their lives, and then say they had made enormous
sacrifices, nor to compliment prelates who had de-
termined to give political power to Catholics, the ancient
and consistent enemies of the Protestant Church. On all
former occasions on which Bina had been brought in,
s granting political power to Catholics, securities had been
offered for the protection of the Protestant Church. He
did not think that the securities offered were good or
sufficient, but certainly no Bill was so destitute of any se-
curity which had ever before been proposed to Parliament.
He would read an extract from one of the former Bills.—
(Cries of no, no—question, question.)—He objected to
this Bill in all its parts ; lie objected to the time it was
brought forward ; he objected to the way in which
it was brought fbrward.—(Flear, hear.)—lt was brought
forward at a time peculiarly unfavourable—look at the
amount of the debt. Look at the state of your manufac-
tures—look at the state of your commerce—look at the
state of your agriculture, arid then say whether this was a
time to bring forward any measure that even risked
lessening the confidence of the people in the institutions
of the country. It was said the Protestant Church
was founded on a rock, and could not be moved ; but
there was a difference between the foundation and the
superstructure. The Protestant religion was itself a rock
that could never be moved ; but the establishment of that re-
ligion was the superstructure that was the work of human
hands, and was open to attacks from without. This
Bill threw down the outworks, and supplied the means
of undermining the superstructure ; he hoped it would
not be undermined and destroyed. It was said the Ro-
man Catholic religion was not the same, but they say
themselves that it still remained unchanged. Will you
not believe them? Suppose that a gallant officer were
to meet a Catholic officer in the street, and to say to him
you Catholicj soldiers fight bravely—you keep in the same
tents with us—you march in the same ranks—
you mount the same breach, and you lie in
the same grave—l will support your Bill in Par-
liament, for besides all this your religion has undergone
a change. The Catholic soldier would reply, my religion
has undergone no change, my religion is unchangeable. The
gallant officer might reply, 0, nonsense, your religion is
changed, the march of intellect has reached you as well as
others, and I will support your Bill in Parliament. This
was the sort of reasoning on which the Bill had been sup-
ported in opposition to the Catholics. It was said Dr. Doyle
had acknowledged that the Protestant church was a Chris-
tian church, but Dr. Doyle had written in every way,
and he could not pay much attention to his aeknow-
ledgments.—(Hear, hear, hear. )—He did not mean to at-
tack the conduct of the Noble and Learned - Lord,
who had been enlightened on the subject by his last three
months' study ; but if he had not been so enlightened it
was pretty evident that he might have had perhaps six
years of retirement afforded him for study. If this Bill
were passed, it would be against the sense of the people.
The Protestant petitions in favour of the Bill were 380 ;
the Protestant petitions against the Bill were 1822 ;
and if the numbers by whom the petitions were
signed were estimated, he was confident, instead of four or
Ave to one, there would be found twenty to one.
It was therefore impossible to say the Bill was not
against the feelings of the people. Even those who
were not capable of writing their names to petitions, had
understanding enough to know that the Catholics objected
to the circulation of the Bible without note or comment,
that was, without their own adulteration. There were
no more respectable body of men in any country than the
Clergy of the Church of England, and they were 19 to 20
against the Bill. The yeomanry of England were
also much against it. There never once had been
before lArliament r Bill' Which was ~o decidedly
opporred to the feelings of the people. A Noble Friend of
his from Scotland had said that the feelings of the people
in that country were strongly opposed to the Bill, lie
had a great respect for Scotland, but he (lid not want any
Scotch philosophy in that House.—(Laughter.) The Noble
Duke's achievements were to be envied not by military men
only, but by every man in the world, but he could not envy
him his Bill for Catholic Emancipation, which he thought
an unsuitable associate for the glories of Waterloo.
The Duke of CPAI.P.RL4ND—My Lorille; I feel it
-4-eyithity!ed'iay a fora words to your Lordeirips,in addition
to what I- have formerly said in reference to the measure
before the House ; having taken part in these proceedings
and well considered the subject in all its bearings, I

- have seen nothing which can induce me to change that
opinion which I have entertained throughout the dis-
cussions which have taken place on • this most import-
ant question ; but in stating my apposition to, the
Roman Catholic Relief Bill, I beg it to be distinctly
understood that I mean no hostility against the Roman Ca-
tholics themselves.—(Hear.)—l entertain a high respect
for many of those Who profess that religion ; at
the same time, my Lords, I will say, that though T
feel myself called upon to oppose the measure, yet, if
hereafter I should see auything to cause me to change the
opinion I at present hold, no man would be more
ready at once to acknowledge it. In the mean time
I must conscientiously vote against the measure.
The Duke of SUSSEX thought it to be his duty to
state his opinion in relation to the present most im-
portant measure; it gave him considerable pain to think
that full justice had not been done to his Ma-
jesty's Government—(hear)—that justice which they
had a right to expect had not been done them. The
Noble Duke, at the bead of the Administration, had
said that there were circumstances which rendered
imperative the present measures; to those of their Lordships
who had never been in a Cabinet, he would say that there
were questions connected with state affairs which it
would not be expedient to answer.—(Hear, hear.)—
He was glad to hear what fell from a Noble and Learned
Lord in the early course of the debate; that Noble
and Learned Lord had said that•if the present measures
passed into a law, he would lend his influence to soften
pubge opinion in relation to the question. If he (the
Del'e of Sussex) understood the law of the country,
it was that there should be equal law and equal
right for all his Majesty's subjects. The whole
of Magna Charts iitself were these, if he mis-
took not—" Nulli vendamus, nulli negamus, nulli de-
feramus, nulli legamus."—(Hear.)—He (the Duke of
Sussex) had most conscientiously followed the Noble Duke
at the head of the Government as a faithful and grateful
soldier.—(Hear.)_That Noble Duke had no follower in
his army who was more sincerely attached to the mea-
sures which be had brought forward ; and splendid as his
victories have been, and signal as hie triumphs, the one
he had now achieved would surpass them all ; millions
of his fellow-subjects would thank him for what he tad
done. In conclusion, lie (the Duke of Sussex) would
assure their Lordships that be never felt more gratified in
his life than be did at the present moment.--(Hear.)
The Bishop of BATH and WELLS said he was satis-
fied that the sense of the nation was against the present
measure; Le relied upon that Almighty Power who had
hitherto so wonderfully preserved the country. He (the
Bishop of Bath and Wells) should sit down conscien-
tiously believing that he had discharged his duty.
Lord REDESDALE rose amidst loud cries of " Ques-,
tion," which lasted for some time. 'I he Noble Earl said
that he apprehended the worst consequences, and nothing
less than the subversion of the Protestant religion by the
passing of this measure.—(Hear.)—lt was giving poli-
tical power to the avowed and determined enemies of
Protestant ascendancy. He felt confident it would not be
a measure of peace, as its supporters seemed to think, to
Ireland. The greatest danger was to be apprehended
from the Catholic priests and the Catholic gentry. • They
were told that the Catholic religion was not what it was a
century ago.—(The cries of " Question" here became
very loud, and it was some time before a single
word could be understood.) Every true Protestant ought
to support the Protestant Constitution. He felt bound
to enter his protest against the present measure.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE—I will not detain

proof that there is nothing like surprise. But the Noble
Earl has complained of the manner the question has been
carried through this House. Now, my Lords, I assert

that no deliberations were ever better attended to than
this. Never were so many hours given to the discussion
of any measure as have been given to this ; nor has any
question been ever so fairly defeated. My Lords, it is true
that this Bill should be carried before the Easter holidays, but
not because I am anxious of preventing the public from
expressing their opinions upon it. No; for I contend
that the public have had the opportunity of expressing
their sentiments, and my object is to put an end to the
agitation, not of the country, for time exists there;
but in London, where the chief agitation exists;
and even there not only the middle classes, but even the
higher and lower, are all favourable to emancipation. The
Noble and Learned Lord entered upon a long discussion
as to the Oath of Supremacy. I should like to know,
my Lords, whether this Bill will make one more
individual in the country who will not take the Oath
of Supremacy. What does this Bill do ? It adds
five or six Noble Lords to this House, and a certain
number of persons to the other House, who would not
take the Oath of Supremacy. But, my Lords, let us look
back to the history of the country. Your Lordships will
perceive that many Peers sat in the House without ever
taking that oath. Your Lordships will recollect these oaths
were framed for the purpose of opposing a Papist Sove-
reig,tt and a Popish successor then in existence. There
were none such at present, and therefore there could be no
possibility of danger.—(Hear, hear.)—The Noble and
Lear►►ed Lord says that this Bill affords no security. If
mischief were apprehended from this measure, then I should
think it necessary that security should be required. But,
my Lords, what securities can you have, in those securities
that were formerly required there would I conceive be the
greatest danger. This Bill will leave the church un-
touched and the Catholic religion also untouched.—
(Hear, hear.)--All that it does is to admit Catho-

lies to the House of Lords and the House of Commons.
The Noble Earl talked of the dangers of Popery, and re-
ferred to the time of Philip and Mary, and he also intro-
duced the letter of Dr. Doyle, and the Marriage Act ; but
my Lords, these have nothing at all to do with the ques-
tion.—(Loud cheers.)—With respect to what the Noble
Earl has said said relative to the Marriage Act, I
shall only observe, that if a man does not choose
to submit himself to the sentence of the Catholic Bishop
and the Pope, that sentence could not be carried into
execution. Such a sentence could not stand for a single
moment against the decision of our Ecclesiastical Coats ;
nor could it stand against the decision of the commonest
court of law. The power of the Pope under such circum-
stances might be compared to that of the common law against
the Catholic Association. The evils of Ireland had been
continually increasing at the time when the Noble and
Learned Lord was himself a Minister ; but the principle
had been adopted, " Let them go on for our successors to
settle." That was the way in which things had gone on,
but it was felt that they ought to go on so no longer, and
therefore the present measure was brought forward. The
Noble Lord has said that he disapproves of this Bill, but he
disapproves of another proposed by Mr. Pitt. Now, I ask
the Noble and Learned Lord if he approved of the blank
securities proposed by Mr. Pitt, one of which was
that of making a provision for the Catholic- Clergy ?
It is true that that measure has not been proposed by me,
and I gave my reasons for not doing so, which was, placing
the Roman Catholic religion upon the footing with the
Established Church. The Noble Lord complains that we
will not tell him what our case is; but my Lords,
I have already stated what the state of Ireland was
in consequence of a long series of mis-governments to
which she had been subjected, and if the Noble Lord is
not aware of the growth and the existence of those evils,
it is indeed most extraordinary to me—(Loud cheers,)—.
those evils do exist in that country to an extent
unparalleled almost in any country in Europe, and
I know of no remedy which can be applied to them, except
one which! adverted to on a former occasion, and which
it would be desirable to avoid on this Bill.—(Hear.)—
My Lords, I am sanguine that this will produce a state of
amelioration in Ireland—the higher orders will have a mo-
tive in promoting tranquillity there; and I trust that they
will set an example which will be followed by their infe-
riors, and that they will live upon good terms
with each other. This is all that we ask of
them ; and if they should conseut to do so, the country
will be quiet—if it is not so—if this measure will not
answer—l shall be prepared to come down with the other
measures which I trust will prove more efficacious.—
My Lords, I have formerly said, in bringing for-
ward this question that it would subject me to much
misconstruction. I regret, my Lords, the separation
which has taken place between myself and the Noble
and Learned Lord with whom I have so long agreed-1
regret, my Lords, that I have lost the confidence of
another Illustrious Lord, and knowing as I did the ancient
feelings he entertained of hostility to this measure, even
when he was pleased to announce his confidence in me,
I did think that this measure would be likely to lead to
a separation between me and that Illustrious Peer. My
Lords, I did think his confidence valuable, and I regret the
loss of it ; but, my Lords, I have not said one word upon
this subject, nor have I done one single thing which it was
not my duty either to do or say. But, my Lords, in pro-
portion to my regret at losing his confidence, is my grati-
tude to those Noble Lords who have given me
their support, and my thanks to those Noble
Lords opposite, with whom I had no previous
connection, and from whom, therefore, I had no reason to

the House at this late hour, but I hope I shall be
permitted before the close of this question, which has
so long occupied the time of the House, to offer a
few observations. After the indulgence I have already
experienced, I should not feel myself justified in advert-
ing to the arguments of Noble Lords who had spoken
against the measure, after they hail been so completely
and so triumphantly refuted. I repeat, it is not neces-
sary to advert to those arguments, as they possess nothing
of novelty to recommend them. It is likewise not neces-
sary to advert to the long statement made by the Noble
and Learned Lord on the cross benches, the whole of
which was to impress upon the House that great conflic-
tions would ensue between the Roman Catholics and Pro-
testants. He seemed to think that individuals professing the
different religions could never agree to sit in Parlia►nent toge-
ther. lam certain that after this measure is passed it will
have the effect of modifying and softening the feelings of the
different parties. The Neble Lord who spoke in the early
part:of the debate had read some instances of the intolerance
of the Roman Catholic Church, and of the necessity of all
Catholics to persecute those differing from them in religious
matters. I thought that when the Noble Earl made these
statements, they were made from some authority entitled to
attention, but what was my surprise when I asked the Noble
Earl for his authority to hear that it was a speech of Dr.
Drongoole, an authority which I can state from my own
knowledge is not entitled to the least degree of weight.—
We are now, my Lords, on the threshold of a great poli-
tical event, involving the future happiness and destinies of
Ireland. It will be no longer necessary to go over that
country by a military force. We have done our duty, and
I feel convinced that the Catholics will be satisfied.
Well have the Government done their duty, and
they are entitled to call upon all parties to do theirs
also, by receiving this measure with that gratitude to
which it is entitled. Those disabilities are at last removed
which so long disgraced the statute-book, and I hope that
there will be no disposition to raise the banner of discord.
The good sense of both Catholics and Protestants will con-
sider this measure as one of peace and good will.
Under these circumstances I cannot anticipate the possi-
bility of this measure being rejected, and I sincerely hope
that it will be received with all the gratitude which it
deserves. In particular, I hope that the Protes-
tants of the North of Ireland will assist in promoting
the exercise of charity, in allaying those dissensions that
have so long distracted that country. I also hope that
the Roman Catholics will prove their grateful sense of the
inestimable benefit which this Bill will confer upon them,
by abstaining from the expression of any insulting ebullition
of triumph. Such forbearance is due to the supporters
of the measure ; and the Roman Catholics are indebted to
the Noble Duke for the greatest boon ever conferred upon
the people of Ireland. Upon a question such as this I
could not expect but that the majority of the Clergy
would be found in the ranks of the Opposition ; but I
cannot help feeling that there is enough of piety and cha-
rity in the Christian Church to produce some supporters
of this Bill. I cannot withhold my admiration of one
Right Reverend Prelate in particular, who during
30 years has zealously advocated the best interests of civil
and religious liberty. I cannot forget the expression of
another talented and lamented Prelate of that Church—l
mean Bishop Heber, who said that with the Catholic claims
were connected the best interests of the Established reli-
gion. It is impossible for me not to allude to another
name with which is associated all that is amiable and
excellent in the exercise of Christian charity, I mean Dr.
Chalmers, who has manifested the most extraordinary zeal
in the performance of an arduous duty for which he re-
ceives less remuneration than is usually bestowed on a
country curate, and who declined a preferment in Scot-
land of great value lest it should interfere with that
duty to which he had voluntarily bound himself.
—With the consequent authority of such names as these
I cannot conceive that this measure will be other than
beneficial to the Protestant Church, whilst it will be pro-
ductive of the most important advantages to the two
countries. These are the hopes in which I have freely
indulged, and I look for their confirmation to the unanimous
vote of this House to-night.

expect the cordial and handsome support I have received,
and for which I return them my cordial and warm
thanks.
The Noble Duke then sat down amidst loud cheers,
and the cries of question were renewed with increased
effect. Strangers were ordered to withdraw, and
At a quarter past One o'clock the House divided, when
there appeared
Contents—Present
Proxies 64
—213
Non-Contents—Present
Proxies
109
Majority in favour of the Bill lO4
The Bill was then read a third time and passed amidst
great cheering.
The Forty Shilling Freeholders' Disfranchisement Bill
was then read a third time and passed, without a single ob-
servation.
The House adjourned at Two o'clock till Monday.
The Duke of Norfolk was in the House during the
whole of the debate.

Lord HOLLAND, amidst loud cries of Question, rose
and said,—my Lords, I claim your attention to a very few
sentences which I am bound to utter in answer to a charge
made ; against me by a Noble and Learned Lord
who addressed you to-night, and I pledge myself
not to say one word upon the question. The Noble and
Learned Lord seems to have misunderstood what I said
on a former occasion, and he has represented me
as nothing less than a traitor to my country. That
Noble and Learned Lord has stated that I laid it down as a
principle that no religious faith should be a bar to political
powor. The protest on your Lordships' table will prove
that such were not my sentiments ; he has also stated
that I have advocated principles calculated to destroy
the aristocracy of the country. I most distinctly repel
that charge. I cannot help saying that I think the charge
brought against me is rather of a serious character,
and perhaps I may observe it is well for me
that he does not retain the office so • often
alluded to, that of Attorney-General, or in all probability
he would have indicted me, for an attempt to subvert the
Succession of the Crown, and to destroy the Aristocracy.
TlioSii who know me will acquit me of any such design,
and I hope that the Noble and LearnediLord will retract
the charge.
Lord ELDON explained.

The Duke of WELLINGTON then:rose t.nd spoke as
follows :—.My Lords, I was in hopes that the N 0149 awl
Learned Lord (Eldon) would have come down prepare{
with some legal arguments against thtise- brought for-
ward by the 2:1 oble Learned 'Lore on the Wool-
seek; and by 'The INToble end' Learned torcls opposite,.
nstead of making person }I attacks upon myself and my
Hon. Friend in the other 110upe of Parliament, for bring-
ing forward this measure as he raid by surprise. My
Lords, I think that the Noble and Learned Lord ought to
have had the candour to have stated that as the UiniSeP

of his Maje,ty we were bound net to mention it till it, and enable the Commissioners of Queen Anue's Bounty
a particular moment. I must give a decided contradic- i. to grant the loan without. It would be found that the for-
tion to the charge of taking the country by surprise ; I znerActs were passed for the further enablingparochial clergy
say there was no surprise.—( Loud cheers.)—The country to reside in their parisho, but h t believed that no one
was informed in the most authentic manner that it could would say that the Archldshop o 1 Canterbury could be
be, through the medium of the King's speech, of what considered as one of the parochial clergy. That fact was
were the intentions of Government, and that now is more rendered by the Gilbert Act, a sett trate Act of Parliament
than two months since ; nay, more, those very peti- for this loan.
tions presented by the Noble and Learned Lord, and Strangers were ordered to withdtaw, but Mr. Hustzt
by other Noble Lords also—those very petitions, stated that he should be satisfied with rescinding his dissent
amounting in number nearly to two thousand, afforded from the principle of the Bill and not press his amendment.
the strongest proof that there was nothing like surprise in The Bill was then lead a third time and passed.
the case.---(Loud cheers.)—My Lords, I rejoice that these A Messenger from the House of Lords brought up their
petitions were presented, for when the Government was Lordships' assent to several pi ivate Bills.
charged with attempting to establish Popery and arbitrary I Sir It. INGLIS presented a petition from a deanery in
power, I consider that these petitions afford the strongest the diocese of Chester against the Catholics.

Sir M. S STEWART presented a petition from a
silk-throwster, ot; we.believe, Glasgow, relative to the
duties on thrown silk.

Mr. LEYCESTER stated that it had been the opinion
of several practical persona that a reduction of the duty
on Thrown Silk would enable the manufacturers to compete
with the foreign ones, and that this might he effected with-
out a great sacrifice of the revenue.
Sir G. PHILLIPS doubted much whether such a pr,)-
vision would have the effect anticipated.
Mr. FERGUSSON said that this petition came from
his country, but it was the most extraordinary one which
had ever come from any country, as the petitioners prayed
that the same duties should be imposed ou thrown silk as
was imposed on grain,—a more monstrous and ridiculous
proposition had never come before the House, and he
considered that it was a hoax on the House ,as the petition
stated that the duty on corn was sometimes as high as
240 per cent.
Mr. BRIGHT differed with the views of the Hon.
Member who spoke last.
Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN believed that the discus•
sion of this question would have been more properly de-
ferred till Mondq, when it would come regularly before
the House.
Mr. V. FITZGERALD must defer giving any explana-
tion of the intentions of Government on this question, but he
wished it to be understood that it was front no indifference
on the part of the Government to the distresses of those
unfortunate persons.__( Hear, hear )
After a few words from Mr. FYLER, Mr. BA alis.c, and
Mr. HUME, the petition was ordered to be printed.
Mr. W. .HORTON presented a petition from the
Paisley Emancipation Society, in favour of emancipation.
Mr. KENNEDY postponed his motion on the Scotch
Law of Entail, till the Ist of May.
Mr. FAZAKErILEY presented a petition from the
city of Lincoln, for the repeal of the Assessed Taxes.

Colonel SIBTHORPE presented a petition from the
Non• Commissioned Officers of the Cavan Militia, praying
that their situation may be considered.
Mr. MONCK presented a petition from the undersigned
inhabitants of the city of Dublin relative to the oaths im-
posed on Jews.
BOROUGH OF EAST RETFORD
Mr. LAMB presented a petition from the bailiff and
freemen of East Retford, in the county of Nottingham,
complaining that the borough was without representatives
at a period when it was particularly desirable that every
place returning Members should have a voice in the
House. This was the third session during which the
writ had been suspended, and the matter seemed still to
sleep. In regard to the borough of Penryn, it had been
stated by the highest legal authority in the other House,
that unless corruption could be proved against the largest
portion of the borough, disfranchisement eouhl not take
place. Now, although all kinds of evidence had been raked
together, they had failed to establish the fact of the cot,
ruption of a majority of the electors of East lhtlord. As
to the Penryn Bill, nothing had been seen or known of it
by this House except from the item in the civil contingen-
cies, whence it appeared that a sum of 6,994/ had been
incurred for expences on its account. No reason could be
assigned why a writ should not issue. It was essential to
the borough that it should have a representative in this
House to advocate their cause. In the case of Giampound,
the two Members sat in the House during the whole in-
quiry ; and during the present Parliament, in the case of
Penryn, the members efficiently advocated thei nterests of
that borough. He did not doubt the power of the House
to suspend the writ, but he wished to know the reason of
its being delayed. The only reason he could ssien was
the conveniency of the Members of this and the other
House, in order that they might not be called upon to sit a
few days longer at the period of inquiry. If the House
should feel disposed to support him, he should lie desirous
of moving that the writ be issued forthwith. lie did not
think it was consonant with the spirit of the Constitution,
the justice of that House, or the rights of the patties, if the
writ was not issued.
Mr. H. GURNEY was glad to hear of this petition.
The Hon. Member for Hereford (Mr. Calvert) had ground-
ed his motion, with regard to this borough, on the case of
Shoreham ; but of all precedents Shoreham was the last
to be followed. The course pursued with respect to East
Retford had been severe. When a member had been
drawn in to commit an act of bribery, he was incapacitated
from sitting in that Parliament only ; but here were per-
sons who did only what they thought themselves entitled
to do, and who were incapacitated from voting, not only
for East Retford, but for all other places. He hoped the
House would allow the Hon. Member to move for a writ
for East Retford; and the probability was, it would never
hear more of its corruption.
After a few words from Sir C. BURRELL, the CHAN-
CELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, Mr. SYKES, and Mr. Fa NE,
the petition was read.
Mr. TENNYSON thought it right that the House
should be informed that the whole of the persons who had
signed the petition, being 81 in number, with the excep-
tion of eight, had received the election money in 1818.
As the discussion on the measure, of which he had given
notice, would certainly take place on the sth of May, he
hoped that the Hon. Member would withdraw his motion.
After a few observations by Mr. Alderman WA ITHMAN
and Mr. Luan,Ev,
Mr. LAMB consented to withdraw his motion, and to
give notice for its renewal after the holidays. —The peti-
tion was then ordered to be printed.

SPANISH CLAIMS' BILL.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved
the order of the day for the second reading of this Bill.
Mr. BENSON was glad that there at length existed
a prospect Of these claims being satisfactorily adjusted.
Mr. ROBINSON was afraid that the matter might be
re-opened, as there was one class of claimants who might
be dissatisfied if they did not receive from the Spaui•h
Government the sums to which they were entitled.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER had no
doubt that the arrangement proposed would be found satis-
factory to all parties. There was necessarily a reciprocity,
and the claimants of each state would undoubtedly be paid
by their own Government.
The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be
committed on Monday next.
The House then resolved itself into a CompliAtez on the
Swan River Settlement Bill.
Mr. FERGUSSON proposed au amendment to the effect
that in this new Colony laws should be introduced re-
pugnant to the larva of England.
Sir G. MURRAY observed, that in a new Colony it
.ht be neeessr--

ntig
_.;ary to give extraordinary powers to the
executive; but it would be the desire of the GoVernment
to afford to those who were sent over as settlers every pro-
tection which the Colonial regulations would admit of,
Mr. HUME wished to know whether in South
Wales the provisions of a Lill recently passed had been
carried into effect relative to the council, and the establish-
ment of grand and petty juries.
Sir G. MURRAY said, that it was the intention tck,
establish a council, if persons of a proper class were funnel;
to go over to the colony.
After a few words from Mr, WARRURTON, Mr. Felt,
cussoN, Sir E. CAnneNoTox„ and Mr. H. Twist, the
• , .
latter of who opposed the amendment,
Mr. HUME inquired whether the establishment of Trial
by inry Was likely to l.;e effected in New South Wales ?
Air• IL TWEi..iS replied that no progress had yet been
mai,e, there had not been time.
Mr. FE RG USSON at length withdrew his ame4dment.
Several verbal amendments were m 4,„ The House,
then resumed, the Report was brc„tight up, and ordercd
to be received on Monday .lest.
The Report on the Naval. COMmissioners' Quoro'n Bill
was brw,ht np and ordered to be received on Monday.
'1:11e RePprt on the. Naval Officers' Widows' Pensiori Bill-was brought op, and the Bill-was ordered to 1),. read
a third time oR Monday next, and be printed,
Oi.t the Motion of Sir G. COCKBURN Ow Greenwich
Hospital Bill was read a second and ordered to be
tommitted on Tuesday.
The Report of ttlla committee on the Newfoundland
Fisheries Bill vziis brought up.
Mr. RUBINSON feared that all further oppasitlon on
his part would be unavailing, but he begged to inform the
House that next Sessions he wnuld. move for a Parlia-
mentary inquiry.
The Amendments were. agreed to, and tile Bill w 3 r'
ordered to be read a third time on Monday next.
On the motion of Lord G. SOMERSET, the Home re-

s lve l itself into a Committee on the Lunatic Regulation
Bill.

The House resumed, and the report was ordered to e
received on Monday next.
The second reading of the County Bridges' Bill was
postponed till the Ist of May.
The amendments in the Committee on the Game Bill
were agreed to, and the Bill was ordered to be read a
thit d time on Monday next.

The regulation of seisins (Scotland) Bill was real a
third time, awl passed.

Sir 11. HARDINGE moved for the appointment of a
Select Cnninittee to inquire into the state of the Militia.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER brought
in a Bill to continue the eornpobiition for the Assessed
Taxes, which was read a first time, and ordered to be read
a second time on Monday next.

The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and
the House adjourned at Nine o'clock.

COMPARATIVE ADVANTAGES OF NEW
SOUTH WALES, AND THE TWO CANADAS.

There is an article in the Sydney Monitor rela-

tive to the comparative advantages possessed by the
Colony of New South Wales, and those of Upper
and Lower Canada. The writer of the article in
question is on the spot, and therefore may ho
presumed to be well acquainted with the country
of which he treats. NVith regard to the capa-
bilities of the soil, he holds the same opinion
as Captain Tench, who went out with the
first Governor, and who, after residing several
years in the colony, returned home, embodied
his opinions in an able book, and, amongst
other things, stated that the land was far from being
fertile, and would not produce crops without being
sTccoormil soetirajoeyt
observations
tsilaley:rirksvms,miatoriaolfditte'she d. But what makes against the
opinions of Captain Tench and the Editor of the
e
Monitor, is the amazing great progress which the
ieonfl aattiti:e:ert,hicetoraupsrisceedail:sef,y lajv eoferue:enl;
leeiistatelCsl.7b,
set
ting forth that New South Wales is every respect
to be preferred to Canada. In an answer to this
the Monitor, amongst other things, observes that
" Patriotism is a good thing ; but he who loves it
better than truth is an immoral man. A writer's
immorality, in the instance of over-rating thiS Co-
lony, not only violates that great fundamental prin-
ciple, but its effects are cruel on the entrapped adven-
turer, who, relying on the accuracy of the writer,
exiles himself from his country and his fi lends, to be
disappointed—perhaps ruined. The winter in Ca-
nada is, in our opinion, no objection to that Colony,
providing the land be so fertile as that food and rai-
ment can be raised there in six months, abundantly
sufficient for the whole twelve. For persons who are
healthy in a frosty climate, the leisure and good
cheer of a Canadian winter must be pleasant, seeing
that the sky there is ever clear. What kind of em-
ployment is more healthy and delig►htful in England
than skaiting or shooting on a frosty day ? What
more delightful than the fire-side of night ? Bat let
us make a comparison between Canada and New
South Wales. In no part of the world can the scenery
be more insipid and monotonous than i❑ New South
Wales. Cross the mountains, and you have then
seen all that can be considered out of the common
way. In Canada travellers luxuriate in their de-
scriptions of the landscape, which in summer no-
thing can surpass for richness or Ip.lauty."l'he
trees of this Colony are certainly the most unsightly
in the whole world. We never saw a patch of good
sylva❑ scenery, save one or two spots in Argyle of a
few hundred acres each.

" The whole country on this side the mountains
contains scarcely a mile of really beautiful forest.
But in Canada those fine trees, the elm, the maple,
the hickory, and the beech, stretch forth their um-
brageous arms, and delight both man and beast; the
first through their beauty, the latter by their shade,
being for most part of gigantic growth.' As to
the water, in lieu of the dull, still chains of pond,
with only two kinds of fish in them, which, with
great scarcity, diversify the pine bearers' of this
Colony, in Canada streams are so numerous as to
impede travelling.'. As to the soil, 'throughout the
whole of Lower Canada, wheat yields luxu-
riant crops,' and requires no manure for many
years. Except small portions of land on the haul;
of the Hawkesburyohe Hunter and the Nepean,
Prospect-hill, a few whinstone hills, and a few strips
of meadow in Airds, in Argyle, and at Bathurst,
this country is productive only of a thin, spate grass,
growing in tufts. Between the strips of meadow
south and west, districts of seven or fourteen miles
of barren crab, fit for neither man nor beast, intervene.

" In short, when a population of 60,01.10 souls
are obliged to collect their meat, their wool, their
butter, their bacon, and their cheese, from a surface
300 miles square (as big us all England), the
thing speaks for itself. And it only astonishes
us how our Government can publiSh the coun-
try as a high-favoured colony,' and." that our
Journalists can assist in propagating the de-
lusion, considering these circumstances. Even
Algoa Bay, notoriously poc;r, and settled only
a few years, supplies this colony, at this time,
with a deal of butter and cheese, for which
we give the importers from the Cape IBd. a pound,
and it is retailing in Sydney at 25.! Bread
butter and bacon and beer will ever huvp to be.
11W:e or less. 'Vine
im-
ported into New South Wales,
we may be able to make, bur ale and porter never ;
nor yet spirits, except, from sugar—save that, in
plentiful maize P','4lsons, maize may perhaps be used
up ; but the uncertainty of our corn harvests will
al wtys make sugar the favourite article with our
distillers.

" This is not a country which can bear taxation.
Of this his Majesty's Ministers may be assured. If
it were not for the large expenditure of the Commis-
sariat here, the taxation of the colony would lay .the
people all in jail ; but as the expenditure of the Com-
missariat exceeds the amount of our taxes, we stag-
ger under the latter tolerably well. Canada is re
gular in her seasons. Here the seasons are the must
uncertain in the world. Nothing can equal their
unsteadiness. Even in our rainy sexennial, the rains
are as uncertain as possible; and, in our droughty
sexennial, the droughts are also irregular as to'the
time of the year they may be expected to pine):,
most. Our oldest cultivators are most at a lbss t„
know how to regulate their farming opesations.- It
is all chance-work with them. Therefore, we say
again, New South \Vales can never be an agricultural
country, even though her good soils were trebled.
In wet seasons the abundant harveSt would do the
farmers no good, on account e 4 the ruinous cheap-
ness-of-their products; and in thoughts good land is
of no avail. New South Wales, then, being a very
poor country, in. itself, it follows that, if ever it be-
come a greater country, it must be so by its situation,
not lay its soil and climate. Its situation as a lishing
station may possibly make it a thriving kingdom
till, by native emigration, and the occupation of our
children's children of longitudes and latit-udes be-
yond the reach of our present uncertain clitr.ate, the
poverty inflicted by ouN. periodical thour
obviated and edged off by the itr,',"orta6ti.jo'ttis onfiayhulbde
produce—th;t is, of pork, brePA and huxtery, By
trenchpg, droughts may .ue partially defeated."
The. Accounts frow, New South Wales are by no
means favourabk. jn consequence
ithe h
'.'red
de
tb,
bushels
ivso: seat-ins, of the failure of
wheat and other necessaries had ad-
tt-
enormous price. Six thousand four bu
of imported wheat had sold at 20s. a
bushel, and flour was at 50s. the 1001bs. It is said
that the thieves who broke into the Australian Bank
effected their purpose " by working through a wall
nine-feet . thick, having_ got to it under a drain."
The small-pox, which was brought to Sydney 14y
the Bussorah Merchant, had been making gret
ravages, particularly among the blacks. The hoop,
lug cough had also been prevalent.
Flour at Hobart Town was from 12s. to 14s. a
bushel. The agricultural prospects had greatly im-
proved, but sheep and cattle were very low, the for-
mer have been sold at 3s. a-head, and the latter at
30s. Prices, were, however, improving. The
whale fishery had been very successful. Bet weer)
700 and 800 tuns of oil will be exported, the entire
capture of colonists.