The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-12 00:00:00

disapprove of." Was this a broad and permanent ground on scarcely one of which vvas carried out to its extreme length,
'which the Parliament could stand and refuse their consent to while all subsisted together in harmony, producing
this measure ? What was the nature of the opposition to this the happini ss and we Mee of the people. Who that
Bill ? Some of those who opposed it objected to -ny establish- recollected the struggle attendant on the Reform Bill,
anent, whilst others entertained opinions exactly the reverse of and the arguments regarding popular rights which
thin What permanence or stability of resistance could be ex- ! were then brought forward, but must be surprised
petted from a lately of wen, son,e of whom were as wide apart to see how the apparent consequences to be drawn
from the others as were the poles? Here was his Hon. Friend ; from these arguments, had been checked by the good sense
the Member for the University of (Woad (Sir R. H. Inglis), and the good understanding of the people. He believed that
who stood, as he himself, under different circumstances, and scarcely any person on either side of the House could have
in a different condition of the country might have stood, advo- anticinated before and during that great constitutional
eating the exclusive endowment of the Church of England— struggle, how rapidly the principles advanced dteing that time
but if this Bill were rejected, amongst what companions would were checked in their action by the reflection of the sober-
he find himself?_-( Cheers.) But that was not all—for a large minded people of England. Ile did not bring this forward as
Proportion of the rest of those who opposed the Bill, but who did a matter of controversy ; he took it !or granted, that to a great
not go the 1-ngth of abjuring all endowments, altogether re- extent they were all agreed u, cn it as a matter of fact ; and,
fused to fotareer his Hon. Friend in his support of the Church of at any rate, it was good for his purpose to this extent, that
,Englatati, and laid claim to an equal endo merit for all forms of it must rot be argued as if everything apparently involved in
Protestants. Yes; opposition was one thing, but the csta. this measure must of necessity be carried into effect. Granted
blishment of a broad, just, and permanent policy was another. that this was an important measure—granted that it was a great
—(Cheers.) It was very easy to ferm a combination—he used Noon—that it might not have the effect of allaying agitatien—
the word in no offensive sense—by an accidental conjure- still he believed that, upon the whole, the measure was called
tion of those who differed on almost every subject, which might for by justice—that it was required by the state of the country;
effect the immediate purpose in view; but when they came to and that he felt that there was no principle on Willa' he
ask upon what principle a Government was to rule, or a people could take his stand in resisting it. He hoped, therefore, that
to be governed, what answer could they give ?—( Lond cheers.) this measure of his Right Hon. Friend, notwithstanding the
In this ease, what answer would his •Hon. Friend give to the great sacrifice of feeling and of prepossessions which it un-
people of Ireland ? When that question once presented itself, doubtedly called upon the people of England to make, would
a new order of ideas was started, and fresh obstacles rose up to pass into a law, and would receive, if not the sanction, at least
the mind in a frightful and gigantic form.— (Cheers. ) The the ccquiescence, of the country—that they would recollect the
opponents of this measure ought to state to the Irish ',topic feelings of others as well as their own—that they would abate
upon what principle they proposed to proceed. Did the oppo- somewhat of their claims in deference to the law which bound
%hien to this Bill support any such principle as that for which the people of the country together, and that they would sacri-
his Honourable Frier d contended ? Del they propose to con- five what was agreeable to themselves in the hope of benefiting
fine all endowment to the Church of England ?—( Hear, hear.) the country. He had no occasion to detain the House longer.
There was notoriously a violation of that principle in a new case While lie regretted that he had been obliged to occupy their at-
every recurring year. It was not enough, he said, for them io tenion so long, he was deeply grateful to them fur the indulgence
object to this or that. They must show some intelligible plan which they had extended to him. He would riot mix up with this
of proceeding, on which they as ere to take th, it stand. One question any matter relating to hims If personally as an indi-
ginciple was the total abrogation of all religious endowment. victual. It would be a bad compliment to the House if he were That principle was supported neither by the House nor by the to mix up with a debate on interests so important matters so
country ; and it would, consequently, be ridiculous to speak comparatively trivial as those which related to himself. He
of that as the fixed principle of their conduct. He would rather wish that his present position might induce the
Wouldg dismiss that altogether. Then others said belief that he had formed an honest and impartial conclusion
4lecognise the differ, nt forms of Protestantism, but exclude with regard to this measure, unbiassed by the prejudices of
**Myer is in commuiow with the Church of Rome." This position. He believed their best vindication would be to leave
esas not good in a constitutional er in a religious point of view. behind them words and acts which would convince posterity
t fined and
not understand what was meant by a thing of so urine- that they of the present day and generation had laboured, with
and vague a meaning as that which they called Protes- fallible judgments but wi.h honest intentions, to consult the
tantism. By this he meant to convey no reproach. He was best interests of those whose social welfare was committed to
quite aware that Protestantism was a something quite definite their charge.—( The flight Hon. Gentleman sat down amidst
is some minds. Ile knew that in the minds of many men it loud cheers.)
was something more than a mere negation—that it was a sub- The Earl of ARUNDEL and SURREY rose with Mr.
stantive reality, and definite embodiment of truth. But whe- D'lsrach ; there were loud cries for the latter, but he gave
riper this was so or not, it was clear that the constitution did way, and the Noble Earl proceeded to congratulate the Right
trog that which was called Prote,tantism. It was true Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel), after the speech of the Right
illat the Constitution required the Sovereign to be a Protes- Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, at now having the
but the word there used was made definite by the Act of support of every man who was worthy of the name of a states-
flit.e latnent ; for the Act required that the Sovereign should be man.--( Hear, bear.) The lion. Gentleman the Member for
coin
:sannicant of the Church of England. So he said that he Dublin had alluded to the want of Catholic petitions for this
"Tald not understand, and that the Constitution did not recog- measure. The Hon. Gentleman had made a long speech, cha-
lik'e) that which was so vague, no indefinite, that which floated ractsrised by amenity of manner, and by language of which no
and varied every day. Was it not impossible, then, for the op- one could have any right to complain ; but he wished to tell
trents of the measure to take their stand upon Protestantism? the Hon. Gentleman that what affected the Catholics of Ire.
would not open any religious discussion, but what he in- land affected also the Catholics of England—(Cheers)—that
stated upon was, the difficulty of making this ground a clear, the Catholics of England rejoiced in any good that was offered
Intelligible, substantive basis of public policy. He under- to Ireland, and that they viewed with delight and gratitude the
stood the definite alliance between the Constitution and the boon which was about to be bestowed on the Catholics cf Ire-
Church of England, and he also was able to understand the land by the Right Hon. Baronet. He must say also that the
emit, nexion between the State and the Established Church of Hon. Member's speech was full of exploded charges against
aeotland, but that appeal, he confessed, was weak to his len- tho Catholics, and of no doubt unintentional misrepresenta-
g.gions feelings which was fourrled upon negative terms and tions against Catholic doctrines and principles ; but the real
tinge which were left in uncertainty and vagueness. Re- point of the speech was to be found in the last sentence,
!cuntable were the words of Mr. Burke, contained in the last wherein he declared that he opposed the grant, because he was
letter he had written on public affairs. Theta words had been opposed to the Catholic religion, and that was the real reason
Written in the later years of his life, when his mind was under of the violence, and of the "No Popery" cry. The sole
Illittsolemn impression of the reality of future things. In 1799 reason was this they said, " You are wrong and we are
"lr. Burke had said, "It is not agreeable to piety or principle right."—( A laugh.) They denied, indeed, any desire to
to give any privileges to a negative religion. Such is Protes- persecute the Catholics, but they were endowed with no
tentisrn without a creed, and to withhold these privileges from friendly feeling towards them. They were influenced by a
th
'le who entertain clear and intelligible views of religious spirit which would have qualified them to become one of the
faith, and from whom we do not greatly differ, is neither just knights of King Arthur's round-table: a spirit and a frame
per reasonable." Mr. Burke bad then begun to find that the of mind which, a few centuries ago, would have made the
"elusion of the Roman Catholics was impolitic and unjust, Hon. Member for Kent turn him, and some other person turn
lind such had been his ()Pinion in the later years of his life. the survivor, and that without any great loss to the country,—
lie was aware of the religious feelings of many (Laughter.) But, to go back as far as eighteen centuries, sup-
"etnbers of that, House and of the country; but, pose the Hon. Member for Kent had been born au Israelite,
being So aware of that religious feeling, he implored and brought up an honest and conscientious Israelite, would
those who rested upon that feeling to consider how it stood. he not, with the same fiame of mind and disposition, have de-
He would not make any minute comparisons as to the dif- sired to impeach the Roman Governor, Pontius Pilate, as the
ferent forms of religious persuasion, but had they such reli- Hon. Member for Knaresborough now wished to impeach the
glens consistency as justified them in pleading religious Right Honourable Baronet?—(Laughter.) He did not wish
3eruPles ? ( Hear. bear.) To judge rightly of this question to pick out the Hon. Member for Kent invidiously, but that
they ought to pot themselves in the position of Roman Cello- Hon. Gentleman had attacked him, and charged him with
141.—( Loud Opposition cheers.) 'I hey ought always to argue being an idolator, to the great amusement of his Right Hon.
from the point of view in which they stood with whom they Friend the Member for Dungarvan, who said he heard him
Were dealing. He should, indeed, be surprised if any one with a feeling akin to love.—( Hear, and laughter.) The Hon.
doubted so obvious a principle. Did they not give votes of Friend of the Member for Kent, the Member for Oxford too,
. alone), to other religious bodies? Would their conduct in displayed a sacred spirit, which seemed to qualify him to be
that respect bear scrutiny ? Had not a measure which, dur- high priest of the Jews.—(Renewed laughter.) He was
gal the last session of Parliament, had been introduced by his no latitudinarian. He was a Catholic in communion
Right Hen. Friend (Sir R. Peel), beets called the " Socinian with the Church of Rome by conviction, by examination,
Endowment" Bill by licensed politicians; but they needed confirmed by those Scriptures which the Catholic were
Slot to travel so far back for a real Socinian Endowment Bill, accused of not being permitted to read.—( Cries of " Hear,
for every Appropriation Bill which they passed at the con • hear.") But, holding that creed and profession, he did most
elusion of each session, contained votes of money for the en- strenuously abhor and repudiate religious persecution in every
dowment of Socinians. He might be told that this was only country, and under every creed.—(Cheers.) Whether in
elope from year to ye ar, and might at any time be stopped. Great Britain, or in Spain, or in Naples, or in Russia, he fully
jThat seeenied to him more a technical than a substantial ob- abhorred and disliked it. —( Hear, hear.) He should not have
ection. The question he put to himself was, would it be done his duty if, before he sat down, he did not pay a tribute,
stopped ?—( Cheers. l Would any one propose its disconti- though a most inadequate and humble one, but certainly a
nuance? He might lament it, but if it were not to be most unqualified one, of admiration, at the position in which
altered, it was dishonest to refuse to recognise it.—(Cheers.) the Right Hon. Baronet had placed himself in bringing for-
His Right Honourable Friend had presented a petition from ward this measure, opposed as he was by a great minority of
the Remonstrant Syno I of Ulster. They had the candour to his usual supporters. Calm and intrepid, the Right lion.
admit that they received money fronts the State. The doe- Baronet bore up against the stream, firm in his determination,
trines they supported were Arian principles, and feeling that and supported by every true statesman in the United Kingdom;
they were thus further removed from the religion of the State and he trusted that he would not merely triumph in this Bill,
than the Roman Catholics, they could not understand why, as but succeed in promoting the pacification of the empire.
they received a State endowment, the College of Maynooth Mr. D'ISRAELI and Mr. SHAW again rose together, and
nvu not entitled to receive it also. It those petitioners did not the calls, as before, were loud and general for Mr. D'lsraeli,
landerstactl the reason, he must be et sanguine man who ex- and Mr. Shaw resumed his seat. Sir, said the Hon. Gentle-
Peed that the Roman Catholics would understand it. He man, I should not have intruded for a moment between you
it not, then, find in the practice of the Constitution, or in and the Noble Load just now, had I had the slightest idea that
the Conviction of his opponents, any substantial, fixed, and per- he intended to have caught your eye ; but the amendment
Ifte_anent ground for opposing the present measure.-(Hear, having been withdrawn, I had an idea, and that supposition is
"ear. It was stated that the Romish Church emanded very fibeneral on this side of the House, that we should not
eater independence—that there was somethine peculiar to have een honouredtewith any declaration of opinion from
that Church which rendered the endowment Ebjectionable, any gentleman on the other side of the Itemise. But lam
Tit it was manifest that in this objection the opponents of extremely glad that the Noble Lord has had an opportunity
rthe measure had descended from the main ground of their of expressing his opinion on the subject. I trust he does
rilteitile.—(llear, hear.) They must either be able to not for a moment imagine that I rise to say anything offen-
gulagW_wan oPound a constitutional profession of faith for which they sive to his creed, which I respect, or anything offensiveg to
eleim a perfect uniformity, or they must adast that the himself and his co-religionists, with whom, in many respects,
Church, like any other religious body, was I sympathise.—( Hear, hear.) I come now to the speech of
entitled to take her chance in urging such claims upon Puha- the Right. Hun. Gentleman the Member for Newark. My
ri°lent as she best could. Being thus unable to diseever any first impression, when I listened to that extremely able ha-
-71 ttrised which would warrant the Legislature in pursuing the rangue, was the question why the Right Hon. Gentleman had
;ernof exclusion against the Roman Catholics by the rejec- passed the gangway to deliver it. —( Hear, and a laugh.) It
t:r4of this Bill, he would proceed to say that the boon eon- seemed to be worthy of the Treasury benc'h, of that Treasury
ed by the Bill was a great boon. It was most important as bench which that evening he criticised. It seemed to me that
dish " Principle it involved. He would not refer to it it it were while the Right Hon. Gentleman informed us that though he
it but there could be no doubt that the Bill, though supported the present Bill, it was not for the reasons which
r id not decide the question of the payment of the Roman were adduced by his late right hon. chief. Nevertheless, had
the relit
clergy, did most emphatically and conclusively decide he been in his position, and had he introduced the Bill him-
oheerr •eligious objection to that mea'urea—(Leud Opposition self, he might have brought forward, perhaps, unanswerable
sui.:) Insuperable obstacles might arise upon other arguments; and deeply sensible of what he styled the eit cum-
nds, but let them not conceal the fact that the Inca- stances of the case, he might, perhaps, have arrested the flow
tats,ot. his Right Honourable Friend, brought forward in of those petitions which he confesses has astounded him, but
,ear 1845, -decided any rel gious objections which could be which next week he informs us will astonish us still more.—
Qui: On that question.—(Cheers.) In another point of view, (A laugh.) But if.l asked myself fora moment what was the
ese ohras a great measure. He did not attribute its greatness necessity for the Right Hon. Gentleman passing the gangway
the
'l thousands of pounds which swelled its importance, but to deliver that speech, ought I not rather to have asked my-
House should know that never had there been such an en- self the question, what was the necessity for the Right Hon.
I,4wlnent granted on such terms. He did not intend to im- Gentleman to cross the House to deliver that speech? If those
gat the Principle upon those grounds—on the contrary, he are the opinions the Right Hon. Gentleman entertains, how
Italti.suPPorted it. Only let it not be said that this was a can he, so subtle a casuist as he may be, reconcile the course
shneet gift- He did not know what was the amount of the en- which he stow pursues to that which he pursued when in op..
1114 teat to Trinity College, Dublin ; but if that were larger position ? Because, e, after all, what is the result of the very
treern°°°t, it was granted on different terms. It was usual to adroit argumentation and elaborate exposition of the Right
peetnitito the Established Church honorary privileges and Hon. Gentleman ? It is this, that the principle upon which
tioreo,gg'arY endowments; hut they imposed upon that Church the State has hitherto been connected with the ecclesiastical
of hernding restrictions—they regulated the performance affairs of this country is worn eut.—( Hear, hear.) We must
they service they restrained the assemblies of her clergy— seek a new principle, says the Right Hon. Gentleman, and the
Ite•oltarttached to their gifts various conditions.—( Hear, hear.) Government which I have left because I support it—( Laugh-
pe,r,„ now speaking of general rules. It was the case in ter)—that Government has discovered. a. new principle,—
ta was the same in France. There was something ( Hear, hear.) But where is the new principle? He tells us
the ,these cases of giving and taking between the Church and that it is not now definitely and distinctly made out. He ac-
heelaktes It was Well known that in France and Austria no knowledges that the exposition of it is feeble, and, perchance,
bull was valid without the consent of the State. The vague.—( A laugh.) It is not now complete ;we must look
nab "lOnent claimed the right of assent over all Papal ordi- to futurity. But if this is the case, have there been no prior
litetet.etin spiritual and secular. And so, though this might be a attempts to adumbrate this new system, and have no public men
nett Fugenclovrment it showed a spirit of confidence and kind- in this House raised their voices to support this principle and
lift gwgieh he trusted would be appreciated.—(Cheers.) The advocate this new settlement. Have they not been, in fact the
eiaes fettered by no condition, and in this respect was foundation of measures brought forward by Governments which
eoneu°wlnent more liberal than that which the State no for ger exist ? And was not an opposition to those measures,
Quit "'Led upon the Church of this country, and upon the however imperfect, or however partially advocated, the founda-
Ito get" of any other countries. He said, then, that this was tion, not only of the late Opposition, but of the Conservative tme et of great importance, and a boon of great magni- theory ?---( Hear. )I am perfectly ready to agree with the Right
tra„,2_, and being thus a boon of great magnitude, he Hon. Gentleman that the relation which exists between the
atati‘u that if they had made up their minds that eircum- Church and State in this country is an extremely unsatisfactory booteses required it from them—if they did not find in their one. I have had someopportunities for observation on this.head.
to th_und consciences any permanent principle of. resistance I have been a Member of this House now eight or nine ses-
(44 measure—he trusted that they would give it freely.— stens, during a very tempestuous period, the principal part
Prete. Ghee
It might be said that this would operate as a of which was expended in discussions arising out of that con-
tete
..ra to sedition. It might be so regarded. It mighi be troverted principle. 1 have read the Right Hon. Gentleman's
but 1,1" d In a wrong, an ungracious, and ungrateful spirit— book.—(Laughter.) But the Right Hon. Gentleman, in his
tilts; that they bad no right to think. If this were of itself argument, has made one great assumption. He says—You
*toe' and a Ilene." Act—with reference to the circum- have endowed the English Church ; you have endowed the
thee`i" of the country and of the time—they should not allow Anglican Church.- Can you, in fact, refuse to endow the
.*llitiel,selves to be governed by a considelation of the manner in Roman Church ?—( Hear.) But have we, in fact, endowed
would be received. He had lately read the words of the Anglican Church ?—( Hear.) That is the question. We
eine°ll' Gentleman, who was well known and was a know that there has been an alliance between the Church and
ellar r. of that House (Mr. O'Connell), which, being the State; and the very term " alliance" shows that they met
*oulacteristie of his humour and point, the House on equal terms, and made an equal compact. But •the Right
pull
ll Perhaps permit him to read. He said " Agitation, I Hon. Gentleman, with all his study of historical lore, and with
kee You; Conciliation-hall, lam much obliged to you; that trained casuistry, which exceeds any historical knowledge,
(471,1 Association, Maynooth, ought to pray for you."— cannot place his finger on any page in history which shows
he w4gter, and cries of " Hear, hear.") Well, the doctrine that the State endowed the Church.—( Hear, hear.) You may
tint °llld suppose was held, oat on
be held, in Ireland, that regret it. The ecclesiastical power in this country has a large
fere" a
.premium to agitation, and an encouragement to estate. You may sly that it is predominant, and reason
held .7. agitation.—( Hear, hear.) But he hoped those who against the principle, but that it is a fact none can deny. We
%tor
Nils argument would remember that agitation was a two- deal with it as we deal with the estates of the aristocracy.ll
as on th'aPcn—that it might he used on the one side as well Parties may be divided upon that question of the landed in-
held f other ; and that, if the Irish people offered a tempting heritance of the country. But you cannot deny the fact.
Petits agitation, agitation, it was equally possible, from a view of the As practical men we deal with great facts in such a way
the,gahs which had that night been laid upon the table, and as to secure the greatest possible benefits. But when we
the Petitions which he was satisfied would yet be laid upon come to speak of religion a new question arises ; and the
fig that this subject would afford a field open for agita- whole basis of—l will not say the argument—but of the
this less tempting, not less inviting, not less seductive in political expediency of the Right Hon. Gentleman, then en-
'oeuntry, in resisting it.—( Hear, hear.) He deprecated tirely fails him. I should like to know what principle you will
.oth the one agitation and the other. He trusted that lay down for the step you are invited to take. I know the
146rtiellotif`r and *wiser spirit would prevail among the Mein- Right Hon. Gentleman who introduced the Bill, and I must
,kind
of its House—( Hear)—and likewise over the general make the same apology as the Right Hon. Gentleman the late
,k 4 tits
the country. He trusted that in Ireland, as in Eng- President of the Board of Trade, for referring to his speech,
r rarties would feel convinced that they ought not to press told us that upon this subject there were three courses open to
I. Ai _ • •
either side their ideal claims and extreme opinions. us. I never heard g Hon. Gentleman bring forward
Ultaffiesto id
that religion was involved in this question, and a measure without making the same concession.—(Laughter.)
suet, tern' not admit of two considerations, he would ask, if I never knew the Right Hon. Gentleman bring forward, not
this
o?
.to be the state of things, what was to be the fate of what I ce.ll a great measure, but a measure which assumes to
the tosusittra hut to be hopelessly torn hy endless disputes, with settle a great ccntroversy,in which there is a difference, with-
Kres;',ll fea.red, even of that religion which parties hones ly out saying that three courses were not open to us.
.In a
that the
inculcate.—(ilear.) But he cherished the hope certain sense, and looking to his own position, he is right.
to
unfavourable anticipations would not be realised : —( Laughter.) There is the course the Right Hon. Gen-
-11 Was terehtould be a disposition to consider how impossible tlernan has left.—(" Hear, hear," and laughter.) There is
Riout ° be in a country where there were different reli- the course that the Right Hon. Gentleman is following; and
tkr, per en if every one was to urger his own claims to there is usually the course which the Right Hon.
.Gentleman
!oder t,l.°e Point. He trusted that o refuse to sur- ought to pursue.—( Great laughter.) Perhaps, Sir, I ought
that the unchecked dominion of these feelings, to say that there is a fourth course, because it is possible for the
the clangs:fey would acquiesce in a just
saidsitedthins that they had the ItightHon. Gentleman, and then having voted for it to rescind
"a e principle of measurs, and that it would after. it.—( Laughter.) That is the fourth course, and in future I
ant out to its extreme length. That was an ar- trust the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir R. Peel) will not forget
may nich it was difficult absolutely to disprove ; but it Hear,"and laughter.) The Right lion. Gentleman tells
e,r from b • • • •
gr , and eing true as applied to political matters-gene- us be always looks back to precedents; he comes with a great
Rat Went esPecially to the affairs of this country. That wasan measure, and he always has a small precedent. lie traces the
agate!sred against concession at the time of the American steam-engine always back to the precedents.tea-kettle.— o
te_ry %,„,31_._ Burke disposed of it in a few words, which were laughter). His precedents are generally tea-kettle p
warheable to their present position. Mr. Burke said, when —(Renewed laughter). He comes here boasting if the
Preaseo
he ens of a with the argument that to comply with the con- principle of the measure to be submitted to our consideration.
foerelllied--erns riha would only whet their appetite for more, The Right Hon. Gentleman has always Mr. Percival, or some
itoe°W eat It Is a great mistake to imagine that mankind old book from a dusty corner, to bring down and throw upon
lee'ernrc,...t°ractce their speculative principles, either in the table, saying, have admitted the principle. Confine
thegugge ot
.or freedom, as far as their arguments or their yourselves to the details, Don't trouble yourselves about the
v‘ttkiliciseolornr
Ti:x.iugtihotleoard them. We, Englishmen, stop short of first and second reading, but reserve all your energies for the
oees*..tten! of the principles by which we support parts of Committtee, because the principle is admitted." Now I deny
even of the whole." These were the that in the limited sense the Right Hon. Gentleman
not his theta
who acted adequately on his material interests says, it is admitted. In the first place that was a temporary
eared
the thetaPhysieal principles.--( Hear, hear.) He con- vote, and this is not ; but, in fact, it is a permanent one. But
ofnoels, hisshe belief was that these words were applicable to all I will not make that the ground of opposition to the Right
hiand, 'il_uesto all communities on earth, but especially to Hon. Gentleman. I will go to the arguments of the Right
egtaes aoteause it WAS impossible not to see that the system Hon, Gentleman the late President of the Board of Trade; I
eottrE2t government consisted in a combination of oppo- am astonished that under present circumstances he seems in
"s Which shaped nnd modified each other, and his argument so completely to have supplanted principles. 1

~h ~,

' looked upon the Right Hon. Gentleman es the last paladin of
principle, the very chivalry of abstraction ; and, when a ques-
tion teas raised which touched the elementary principle of
constitutional settlement and ecelesias.ical arrangement, I
never believed that it could be the Right Hon. Gentleman who
would come down and g ive the House the small change
of circumstances to settle this great. account.—(Laughter end
cheers.) Have circumstances which ought to settle every
ofthing—have
APercival? circumstances
Howon
asti not
ted must changed
Al-.
siege
Percival's thetni
ghost:e
be—if he has a ghost.—(Great laughter.) Yet were Mr. Pitt,
or Fox, or even Burke, whom the Right Hon. Gentleman has
quoted to-night, brought in to settle this question,
we might feel the controlling influence of the great apparition.
But Mr. Percival to be brought in to settle it !—(‘• Hear,
hear," and a laugh.) Mr. Percival seems, in a spirit as petty
as his nature, to have agreed to a miserable vote about this
accidental college at Maynooth. What, let me eels you, was
the political and religious situation of affairs by virtue of which
Mr. Percival became Prime Minister at the time of which I
ant speaking? You had really then what you pretend you now
have—a Constitution in Church and State. You had that
Constitution, and Members of Parliament being then neces-
sarily in communion with the Church, were, by virtue of this
junction of Church and elate, in fact members of a lay synod.
What, again, was the situation of the other kingdoms of the
empire ? You had a Church in Scotland without any Dis-
senters, the only persons there not belonging to it being the
relicts of the old Episcopalian establishment. What, also, was
the ease with respect to Ireland ? There was your Constitu-
tion in Church and State not only founded in principle, but
most rigidly adhered to. What do we now see? You have no
longer in this country your boasted union cf Church and State.
You may proclaim them still—you may make speeches to prove
that the union is as strong as ever—you may toast them at
your public dinners, but I tell you that the Constitu-
tion in Church and State no longer exists.—( Hear, hear.)
What is the broad and undeniable fact with respect to
this proclaimed union? Why, even within my own per-
sonal experience I detect its hollowness ; and to test its
non-existence, I am politically connected with a district which
is threatened with very severe suffering in consequence of this
supposed Constitution in Church and State; the inhabitants
of that district are about to endure one of the greatest blows
that could be inflicted upon them, and this solely because it has
ph aced a Conservative Government to destroy the ancient epis-
copate under which they have so long been governed.—( Hear,
and cheers.) What is now the position of the Church of Scot-
land—a church which the late Earl of Liverpool held up as a
model, and as the perfection of a religious community, because,
I suppose, it gave him no trouble ?—( A laugh.) What, I
repeat, is the present situation of the Church of Scotland ? It
is rent in twain. Besides the Kirk, there is now the Free
Kirk. Well, will you endow the Free Kirk ? Will you apply
this principle of eneowmcnt to sectarians and schismatics of
every class ? Where will you stop ? Why should you stop ?
And this consideration brings me to the question immediately
before the House. You find your Erastian system crumbling
from under your feet. Will you adopt a pantheistic principle?
I have unfaltering confidence in the stability of our Church;
but I think that the real source of the injury which
threatens it is its connexion with the State, which places it
under the control of a House of Commons that is not neces-
sarily of its communion. Leave the Church to herself, she
will shrink from no contest, however severe. I believe in
Ireland itself, if the question be, will you sever the Church
from the Sta'e, or will you endow the Raman Catholic
Church ?—for my own part, I believe the Protestants of Ireland
would say, " Sever the connexion between the Church and the
State, and don't endow the Roman Catholics."—( Hear, hear.)
lint then we come to this other consideration—are we to be
bound to recognise a pantheistic principle ? Because, judging
from all that has passed, I can only come to the conclusion,
that any body of sectarians that can prove a cer-
tain population to Downing-street will be considered to have a
claim for an endowment. For my own part, I confess I have
no great confidence in the cure of souls in that quarter.—
( Hear, hear.) I observe in Downing-street a disposition to
assail our old and deeply rooted habits. From that quarter has
proceeded the assault on the parochial constitution of the
kingdom. Will they complete it by attending to our spiritual
necessities? For my part, lam totally opposed to such a pro-
ceeding.—( Hear, hear.) I can conceive nothing more op-
posed to, or more utterly at variance with, the feelings of this
country than a police surveillance, such as is contemplated
over the ceremonies and observances of the Church. I abso-
lutely deny that the Church of England is the creature of the
State. The alliance between them has been one formed and
maintained upon equal terms ; and if it be attempted, as ap-
pears to be the intention, to place all ecclesiasticol affairs
under the control of Downing-street, and to subject them to
the same species of discipline that is enforced in Prussia over
the religious establishments there, I tell the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman that the people of this country will never endure
such a system. This alone is a sufficient ground with me
to oppose the Bill now before the House. I will not say that
this Bill has been introduced into this House in a sinister
and insidious manner, though I, in common with others,
have formed my conclusions upon that point; but I will as-
sert, what I believe cannot be denied, that the measure has
taken the country by surprise. But 1 have other reasons
fur opposing this measure.--( Hear, hear.) I oppose this
Bill on account of the manner in which it has been introduced,
and I oppose it also on account of the men by whom it has
been brought forward. —( Loud cheers.) lam perfectly ready
to meet those cheers, and I do so by declaring, that 1 do not
think—putting Wall}, out of view the other objections which I
entertain—that the men who are now seated on the Treasury
',rich are morally entitled to bring such a measure forward.
This measure, Sir, involves a principle against which the Right
Hon. Gentleman and most of his colleagues have all along most
signally struggled.—( Hear, hear.) When I recal to mind all
the apt eehes, and all the motions, and all the votes which have
emanated from the present occupants of the Treasury bench on
this and analogous questions—when I remember their opposi-
tion to that system of education which they now seek to pro.
mote—when I recollect the procession of prelates going up to
the palace of the Sovereign to protest against analogous- mea-
sures with those which those who incited this proceeding are
now urging forward—when I reral to mind all the the dis-
cussions which have taken place here on the subject of Irish
education—when the appropriation clause presents itself to my
momory—( Loud cheers)—l consider it would be worse than
useless to dwa 11 at any length upon the circumstances which
induce me to adopt this opinion. And are we to he told,
that because those men who took the course to which I have
referred have crossed the floor of this House, and have aban-
doned with their former seats their former professions—are
we to be told that these men's measures and actions are to
remain uncriticised and unopposed, because they tell us to
look to the merits of their measures, and to forget them-
selves and their former protestations ?—(Loud cheers.) Such
preternions naturally lead to the question whether party, as
a political instrument, is or is not to continue to govern the
discussions of this House?—( Hear, hear.) This question
touches the whole policy of the Ministry. Let us, therefore,
grapple with it, and decide what our future course shall be in
this respect. Let us endeavour to put an end to the miscon-
ception and subterfuge which now surround us. lam perfectly
contented to place the question upon this footing. Now, Sir.
it is very easy to complain of party Government, and there may
be persons capable of forming an opinion on this subject who
may entertain a deep objection to that Government, and know
to what that objection leads.—( Hear, hear.) But there are
others who shrug their shoulders, and talk in a slipshod style
on this head, who, perhaps, are not exactly aware of what that
objection leads to. These persons should understand, that if
they object to party Government they do, in fact, object to no-
thing more nor less than Parliamentary Government.—( Loud
cheers.) A popular assembly without parties-500 isolated
individuals—cannot stand five years against a Minister with an
organised Government without becoming a servile senate.—
(Loud cheers.) The objectors to party Government may
have a good case, on the merits of which I give no opinion.
They may say, " Here are we the Parliament of England;
we have had the virtual sovereignty of this country for a
century and a half ; we have plunged the country in debt,
and we can't pay it ; we have done more than patri-
cian Rome in its most rapacious hour. We have mort-
gaged industry to protect property ; we have passed laws
on the currency which have affected property more than all the
tampering of the coinage by all the sovereigns that have ever
existed; we have violently assailed, and now still more enor-
mously menace, the parochial constitution of the country, and,
having differed on every other subject, we have at length
agreed on one point, that with relation to the civilization, the
wealth, and luxury that surround them, the people of England,
are the hardest worked and the worst fed, the most miserable
and degraded population in the world.—(Loud cheers.) This
is the case of those who are opposed to party Government.
Well, let them carry out their principle ; let them vote an ad-
dress to the Crown, go up to Buckingham Palace, fall on their
knees before our Sovereign Lady, and restore to her the pre-
rogatives which they have so long usurped and so injuriously
used.—(Loud cheers and laughter.) But for the Right Hon.
Gentleman, even a pedant in favour of Parliamentary power,
who, First Minister of the Crown, declares he is ready to go to
war to-morrow with the Lord Chief Justice of England in be-
half of your privileges—who is jealous of the slightest inter-
ference with your business or your duties, even if you cannot
transact or perform them--who enjoins the youth of England
not to make brilliant speeches, but to work on railway com-
mittees—(Laughter)—for him to set up for one who would be
independent of Parliament and party, is indeed astonishing.—
( Cheers.) The Noble Lord opposite, the hereditary leader of
the Whig party, who founded Parliamentary Government in
this country, will, I am sure, not withhold his concurrence with
the principles I have laid down. That Noble Lord, the re-
presentative of Mr. Fox, will not gainsay the motto of that
great leader—" Men, and not measures." And how has the
opposite system answered ? You have permitted men to gain
power and enter place, aed then carry measures exactly the
reverse to those which they professed in opposition, and they
carry these measures by the very means and machinery by
which they conducted the opposition, and by which theygained
power.—(Cheers.) And you are reconciled to this pro-
cedure by being Persuaded that by carrying measures which
you disapprove of, and they pretend to disrelish, they are
making what they call " the best bargain" for you. I
say that the Parliamentary course, under the usual cir-
cumstances, is for this House to have the advantage
of a Government formed on distinct principles, and of
its consequence, a constitutional Opposition ; and yet here is a
Minister who now habitually brings forward as his own mea-
sures those very schemes and proposals to which, when in op-
position, he always avowed himself a bitter and determined op-
penent.—(Loud cheers.) He brings in Canada Bills, he brings
in Maynooth Bills, he uses expressions and excites feelings still
more objectionable than the measures; but, let me ask the
admirers of the best bargain system, how they think the Right
Hon. Gentleman would have acted had they been introduced
by the Noble Lord opposite?—(Loud and prolonged cheers.)
Why, then those Bills would have been at least checked by the
Opposition, by the constitutional Opposition ; the questions
would have been criticised, they would have been opposed ; in
the case of the College of Maynooth, I grant it may hare been
factiously opposed ; but this opposition is a necessary conse-
quence of a Parliamentary Government. In what situation
are we placed now ?—( Hear.) Up come all these petitions;
in them we hear the loud murmurs of the people, because
there is nothiponent of the national opinion in this House,
while we have a Government which came into power by an
organisation prepared to oppose such measures now engaged
in carrying them.—(Loud cheers.) How can we accuse
the Opposition? I may on constitutional grounds say, the
Noble Lord (Lord John Russell) ought to oppose the
measure, though he approves it, because it is thus brought
forward • the people find that the men who now occupy
the high places of the Government support measures
they were brought into power politically and personally to op-
pose ; it is for those who act on another set of principles to op-
pose the Government ; but we have not a Government formed
on distinctive principles, consequently we have no constitu-
tional Opposition to keep the Government in check. Now, I
hope it will not be said, because! have made these observations,
which are in entire and complete relation and affinity to the
motion before the House, that I am " bandying personalities."
Certainly we live in strange times, when Parliamentary criti-
cism on a person in so eminent a position as the First Minister
of the Crown is to be stopped by his declaring it personality,
when it is but fair observation on the character and conduct of
a public man—( Hear, hear.)—whose career is open to us.
with respect to whom we have a right -to draw the inferences
we think legitimate ; and if they are not just they may be con-
travened in free discussion. 1 do not know what the House
thinks of this system of putting down Parliamentry discussion;
it is not a very new experiment ; it has been tried in —I will
not say another House, for that must not be referred to—but
it has been tried in what is called "another place."—(Great
laughter.) Ido not know whether the position occupied by
" another place" in the public estimation and the
public eyo is one of which the Members of the
.House of Commons are particularly ambitious.—(Cheemand
laughter.) I remember when. we ttsed to toast

"another place" with three times three and nine • had had their minds turned from the great object of the debate
times nine— (Laughter) ;—" another place" was once to these petty feelings and considerations? and he did hope the
a favourite toast at. all Conservative dinners—(Laugh- , House would pardon him if he endeavoured to forget all con-
ter )—where is the independence of " another place" now?— sideration of the immediate amusement which might be de-
(Great cheering.) It is not Radicalism, it is not the revolu- rived from malice in the guise of wit —( Hear)—and left it at
tionary spirit of the 19th century, which has consigned once for the more serious subjects involved in the question.—
" another place" to its illustrious insignificance—(Cheers and ( Hear.) It was a question which must be regarded as of
laughter)—it is Conservatism and a Conservative dictator.— great importance on that (the Opposition) side of the House;
(Cheers. ) Are you prepared to meet the same fate? Every for it involved not merely the quiet of Ireland, but also the
time a Member expresses any opinions not absolutely agreeable ! quiet and well-bensg of England ; and perhaps, without cx-
to the Minister of the day, is he to be stopped by a charge of 1 aggeration, he might say, the quiet of the world at large.—
" bandying personalities ?" Whenever the young men of Eng- I ( Hear, hear.) Ite was because he viewed the question in this
land allude to any great principles of political life or Parlia- light, and because the country generally, and his constituents
:unitary conduct, are they to be recommended to go to a railway in particular, were deeply stirred by conscientious scruples in
committee?—( Cheers and laughter.) I have no doubt it connexion with it, that he approached it with such feelings of
would be very agreeable if this House was in the same condi- doubt and anxiety. If the question came before them now,
tion, especially with regard to this Bill, as "another place." for the first time, it would assume a very different aspect.
I know that the Members of this House are different, that the But, however easy it might be to laugh at the word " cir-
charecters of the individuals who would control us are different; cumstances," he could not shut out from his view the present
but the process with both bodies, although it varies, is in re- condition of Ireland and of this country when he came to con-
sult the same. It may break the spirit in " another place," cider the course he should take on this measure. " Circum-
and it may lower the tone in this ; " another place" may be stances" might be cited often, as indeed might " principles,"
drilled into a guard-room, and the House of Commons may without much care being felt for either one or the other. But
be degraded into a vestry.—(Cheers and laughter.) But the when he looked at the state of Ireland, and at the circum-
consequence is exactly similar, and that consequence will be, stances under which they were called upon to vote on this
that yon will have Bills like this Maynooth Bill, and that still question, he must say that it behoved them to place themselves
more important measure which, after the admission of above the agitation around them, to set an example to those
the Right Hon. Member for Newark, may be looked on as whom they represented—( Hear, hear)—todo their duty boldly,
a fact, if not accomplished, yet ascertained, introduced, and, whatever might be the result, to act up to their view of
and carried through this House, and of course through what was right and proper, and likely to conduce to the wet-
" another place ;" and you may have the floor of this House fare of this great community.--( Loud cheers.) Now, looking
covered with petitions, and the lobby of "another place" at the grant then proposed by the Right Hon. Gentleman at
crowded with the constituents who have left us in despair; the head of the Government, he had no hesitation in saying
but, whatever may be the degree of public feeling, whatever that he, for one, was prepared to support it. He would go
may be the depth of the national sentiment, if you choose one step further, and declare that if the Right Hon. Gentle-
to support a Government that announces no distinctive prin- man had come down to the House to propose a grant, and
eiples, which is in turn supported by an Opposition that does they were for the moment excluding all recollection of any
not oppose, lam certain there is no spirit and no nation that money having been formerly grante for the same purpose,
can resist a " cross" so deeply laid and so deliberately ac- he (Mr. Roebuck) would at once close with the offer. But
complished.—(Loud cheers.) This Maynooth Bill is intro- he would take the case as it was first presented to them. A
duced instead of the Irish Reeistration 13111—(Cheers)—the purely Protestant Parliament in Ireland endowed, as it was
necessity for which was as apparent when the Right Hon. Gen- termed, though he objected to the word, the Roman Catholic
tleman was in opposition as it is now • the necessity for which College of Maynooth. An annual grant was made by a Par-
was doubly apparent when the Right Hon. Gentleman assumed liament exclusively Protestant and composed wholly of the
the reins of office, and equally apparent as it is now; but rich, and that grant was continued up to the time of the union.
which is brought in after a four years' experiment of lowering At the period of the union a purely Protestant Parliament re-
your tone, and working that, constitutionally, by means of a peated the vote. Various Ministers came into power ; political
Whig opposition.—( (Seers.) We have had this Bill brought parties of various descriptions took office ; and under all this
in alter a four years experiment; and during those four grant was continued. He wanted the House, however, to re-
) ears what has the Conservative party endured? What has mark particularly the circumstances under which a grant was
it experienced? What is the treatment it has been obliged first made to the College of Maynooth. This took place in
to submit to, till the thing was so ripe that even your mur- 1795, at a time when the Protestant feared the Catholic less
murs are not noticed? This B:11 brings affairs to a crisis ; than he feared the principles of France, when he would rather
the question is not to be decided on its merits ; it is to be see in every parish in Ireland a Catholic priest, a follower of the
decided on the fact—who are the men who bring it forward ? religion of Christ, than an emissary of the Jacobin Club in
If you are to 1 ave a popular Government, if you arc to Paris, or a follower of Robespierre. During the existence of the
have a Parliamentary Administration, the conditions an- Reign of Terror, they applied themselves to the task of con-
tecedent are, that you should have a Government which ciliating the Catholics, and to secure their assistance in the
declares the principles upon which its policy is founded, and battle which they were fighting, this grant tees made. As time
then you can have on them the wholesome check of a constitu- went on the parties in the contest changed. Napoleon, it
banal opposition. What have we got instead ? - Something it is true, established Catholicity in France, but it was sup-
has risen up in this country as fatal in the political world as it posed that he aimed at universal dominion, and Ireland was re-
has been in the landed world of Ireland—we have a great Par- quired to send forth thousands of gallant soldiers to tight the
liamentary middleman.—(lmmense cheering.) It is well great battle that was then going on between France and Eng-
known what a middleman is—(Cheers and laughter)—He is a land. In the year 1808 the principle of the grant was again
man who bamboozles one party, and plunders the other—(A mooted, and again discussed, and they added to the grant that
laugh) —till, having obtained a position to which he is not en- was originally made. They found a purely Protestant Parlia-
titled, he cries out, '• Let us have no party questions, but merit acting in this way, for its own purposes, under all Mi-
fixity of tenure."—( Laughter and cheers.) 1 want to have a nistries, up to the year 1829. In that year the Roman Catho-
commission issued to inquire into the tenure by which Down- lies were, as it was termed, emancipated, and entered into the
ing-street is held.—(Loud cheers.) I want to know whether composition both of that and the other House of Parliament.
the conditions of entry have been complied with, and whether The grant to Maynooth was again renewed, and was continued
there are not some covenants in the lease which are already for- up to the time of the Reform Act. Now, it might, and probe-
feited?—(Cheers and laughter.) I hope I shall not he an- bly would, be said that the doings of an aristocratic Govern-
swered by Hansard.—(Cheers.) lam not surprised the Right ment were net those with which they could have much sympa-
Hon. Gentleman should be so fond of recurring to that great thy, it being notorious that an aristocracy consulted only its
authority ; he has great advantages; he can look over a record own convenience and its own selfish interests. But after the
of thirty, and more than thirty years of an eminent career. year 1832 the Parliament was one which represented the great
But that is not the lot of every one, and I may say, as a general body of Dissenters its this country ; and from that time to the
rule, lam rather surprised (especially when the Maynooth present had the grant been continued.—( Hear, hear.) What
question is concerned), that experienced statesmen should he had to say on this subject he wished to address to his consti-
like to recur to that eminent publication.—( Hear, hear.) tuents and to the people out of doors. They had for
What, after all, does one see on looking over a quarter of a the last twelve years sanctioned this grant—they had sane-
century or more even of one's own speeches in Hansard? tioned the principle of it up to the present hour; and they
What dreary pages of interminable talk, what predic- could not, therefore, now turn round and tell their represen-
tions falsified, what pledges broken, what calculations Wives, whilst they suddenly startled their ears with a sort of
that have gone wrong, what budgets that have blown up ecclesiastical trumpet—(Laughter)—that Protestantism was
And all this, too, not relieved b. y a single original thought, a in daily and hourly peril on account of this grant.—
single generous impulse, or a single happy expression! Why (Cheers.) They had seen the former grant made, not only
Hansard, instead of being the Delphi of Downing-street, is without remonstrance, but with applause; and if,the grant
but the Dunciad of polities.—(Cheers and laughter.) But I had been made for twelve years by four successive Parliaments,
want something more than quotations from Hansard to account with different Administrations in power, the principle being
for how parties have been managed in this House ; it is so the same as regarded the religious question whether the grant
matter of fact and yet so fallacious, taking in every body, though were 8,000/. or 26,000/., they could not be suddenly called
reverydeceived; so mechanical, and yet so upon to recede from the principle on which the grant had hi-
la c
can is
hardlyy
what it is, except a hum- therto been made.—( Hear, hear.) Sonic complaint had been
h i a bodyvelia n knows,
that he
drum hocus poen', in which the order of the day is read to made against the Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir R. Peel) on ac-
take in a nation.—(Cheers and laughter.) Now, the system count of his stating that there were but three courses open. It
is to be brought to a test to-night. Will the House support would not be denied that it useful
was exceedingly to look at
the Government in a measure which, according to the highest the real position in which
they were placed. That matters
authority,—one who has quitted the Cabinet for some reason should remain in their present position every one acknow-
that has not been given, and who, probably, may join it again ledged to be impossible. It
ryas admitted that the present
wader circumstances equally obscure—(Cheers),—is' in fact, position of Maynooth could not continue, first, by the Hon.
an endowment for the Roman Catholic priesthood of Ireland ? Member for the University of Oxford, who had always con-
If any vote were at stake in which the social and political sistently been opposed to the grant; and secondly, by. those
equality of the Roman Catholic Population was concerned, I who had had a new light brought into their minds by the
would go as far as any man in the House, and perhaps further proposed extension of it. Hon. Members on,that side of the
than many. But, Sir, no one pretends that this is now the ques- House who supported the policy of the Government con-
tion. The grounds on which I oppose this motion are not those tended, that the providing for the proper education of
of hostility to their claims, but grounds which they themselves, the Roman Catholic priesthood of Ireland was of the highest
after the clamour of the moment, must feel are legitimate ones. moment, as being calculated to make them feel that they were
I cannot admit the plea ad miserieordiarn, founded on not aliens from the country of their birth. They felt that it
the state of maynooth. Surely men of high spirit and was desirable to do all in their power to create in the minds of
bearing cannot for a moment bring themselves to suppose the Irish priesthood feelings of affection for the Government,
that we shall be induced to vote for the measure on this plea ; and associations of pleasure in connexion with the place in
it would be an insult to them to suppose so. I know there are which they were educated, instead of associations of insult and
Roman Catholic colleges, well organised and well ordered, that indignity.—( Hear, hear.) It must be recollected that the in-
are not in the condition of Maynooth ; there are sectarian stitutions of this country were not in any case paltry or mean,
colleges in England with larger revenues even than those now because they were unable to make them otherwise. They
proposed to be given by the Government in support of Roman were, in fact, for the most part, distinguished by magnificence
Catholic principles. What sustains them? The sympathy of and liberality; and if Maynooth were treated in a different
their co-religionists.—(Hear, hear.) I cannot believe, there• manner it would be attributed not to an inability, but to un-
fore, that those gentlemen will, upon reflection, be anxious willingness to provide proper support. The Roman Catholic
that this Bill should pass. Ido not think it a measure either clergy had in many cases endured poverty and privation in car-
flattering to their pride or solacing to their feelings ; Ido not rying what they believed to be the truth from one end of the
think it either a great or a liberal measure. The Right Hon. globe to the other ; and if it were necessary, he believed they
Gentleman is a supreme master of Parliamentary tactics, and would et all times cheerfully assist in bearing public berdens.
when he found he was not receiving from the seats behind him But when they found all the appliances of wealth exerted in
the once abundant chorus of applause to which he was accuse other cases and withheld in their own, they naturally felt that
toured, he went forward to the red box, and saying, "I know they did not enjoy their due share of the sympathy of England.
this is a great grant to Maynooth," obtained the assent of What course, then, could the House pursue ? Why, they
several Hon. Gentlemen of the Opposition to the assertion. must either get rid of the grant altogether, or accede to the
But if the Right Hon. Gentleman's principle is correct, I motion of the Right Hon. Gentleman. His only objection to
think it is not a great grant; I think it is a mean, a meagre, that motion was, that it did not go far enough.—( Hear,
and a miserable grant. If the Roman Catholic priesthood are hear.) He had hoped that the Right Honourable Gentle-
to be educated by the State, it must be something greater man would have proposed a broad scheme of academical edu-
than the difference between oet. and '281., something higher cation, making Maynooth a Roman Catholic University, simi-
than the difference between three in a bed or two.—( Hear. lar to Oxford and Cambridge, with the power of conferring de-
hear.) That is not the way, under any circumstances, in grecs, so that the clergy and the gentry might equally
which I would approach a reverend priesthood. I cannot have availed themselves of its benefits. Had that course
believe, therefore, that the Roman Catholic gentlemen, on been pursued, he believed no more hostility would have been
reflection—and I hope they will have time for reflection-- exhibited to that proposal than the present.—( Hear, hear.)
will vote for this measure, when they consider what it is. Now, there were two classes of objectors to this measure. The
Who are they who introduce it? 'They are the same inch. first class, with whom he deeply sympathised, opposed the
viduals whose black shade fell on the sunshine of your hopes grant on the voluntary principle, objecting to the endowment
for more than half a century—they are those who arrested of any religion by the State. They said, that at the present
the progress and fruition of those hopes for more than five-and- moment the Established Church was the monster grievance of
twenty years. Will not these considerations affect you? Ireland, and they objected to what they called the setting up
What if it be a boon ? I den that it is one—but if it were of a Roman Catholic Church establishment as equally objece
such a boon as it is said to be, would you accept it from hands tionable. But he contended that this was not the setting up
polluted ?—( Hear, hear.) It is not from him you ought to of another establishment, but a contribution towards the educe-
accept it—not from him who, urged on, as he reluctantly tion of Ireland—a contribution in the best form towards the
admitted, by a fatal State necessity, accompanied the con- teaching of the only teachers of the Irish people.—( Hear, hear.)
cesssion of your legitimate political claims by the niggardly He regretted that the measure of the Right Hon. Gentleman
avowal that he was obliged to concede them.—( Hear, hear.) was so inadequate to that object ; but he supported it as an
As to the Whigs, lam almost in despair of appealing to their approach towards national education ; and he would do'so if, its
hereditary duties, their constitutional convictions, er their place of being intended for the benefit of their fellow Christians
historical position ; but I should have thought that the Noble in Ireland, it were designed for Jews or Mahomedans.—( Hear,
Lord oppeeite was almost weary of being dragged at the hear.) Did they not contribute towards the teaching of the
triumphal car of a contineror who did not conquer him in fair Brahmin priests in India, and of the Roman Catholic priests in
fight. I think the Noble Lord might have found some inspira- Canada?—(Hear, hear.) In Canada there was a priesthood
tion in the writings of that great man whom he has so often endowed by Act of Parliament, and not one word had been
quoted, and whose fame he so attempts to emulate. I should said on the score of a violation of conscience. In fact, an Hon.
have thought that in the position of the Noble Lord—and he Member had that evening admitted, that without this it would
has a thoughtful mind and -a noble spirit—Mr. Fox would have be impossible to maintain their colonial dominion. The ques-
taken that course, which I think the Noble Lord, touched tion of principle, it appeared, had no influence when interest
by his high position, and the responsibility of that position, will was concerned.—(Hear, hear.) Then they put the principle
still take. His party may have fallen, but it still is one eon- in their pockets and sanctioned the endowment, as it was called,
netted with the histo of this country. Other parties have of the Roman Catholic religion._-( Hear, hear.) He did not
also fallen; they have been re-constructed, and they have been object to this, he acknowledged the reason for it, and thought
destroyed. The Noble Lord is not in so fallen a position as that it a sufficient one; but why not apply the same argument to
in which the Right Hon. Gentleman was in 1831. But let the Ireland ?.—( Hear, hear.) lf it could be shown that there were
Noble Lord beware of this,—let him beware of rising from in Ireland reasons for believing that they would conciliate the
that degraded position again by the same system of tactics. people, that they would very much contribute to the harmony
—(Hear.) They may bring some short-lived success, hut of the whole people by continuing and increasing this grant,
upon conditions which I believe the gallant spirit of the Noble how came it that it had the opposition of persons who could
Lord would disdain, —( Hear, hear.) But, Sir, if with re- concede to this principle for the purposes of colonial religion ?
regard to this measure respecting Maynooth Ido not despair The truth war, that there was not a single hour of any one of
ot the aid of the Roman Catholic gentry of Ireland, or of the their legislative days that they did not break a principle. He
Whigs of England, or of those who oppose the measure on ex- supported the grant on the ground that we were of necessity
elusive Protestant principles, I think I may the more certainly obliged, so far as the religious teaching of the people was con-
depend on the support of those who oppose this measure, be- cerned, to be for the moment passive. We must contribute
cause it seeks to pervert principles which it seeks hereafter as well as we could to the due education of the people in
to distrust, because it seeks to lower the tone of this country the faith which they held, and in which we had not a
and to change the national character of England.—(Hear, right to interfere; all that the State had to inquire into
hear.) But, whatever may be the various motives and im- was, were they good citizens ?—( Hear, hear.) And, there-
pulses which animate these different sections of opinion, there fore, going from one end of the world to the other—to
is at least one common ground for co-operation—there is one Canada, to India, to Malta, to the West Indies —in
animating principle which is likely to inspire us all. Let us in fact, through the whole of our foreign possessions, we found
this )louse re-echo that which I believe to be the sovereign that this was the system pursued; but, on turning to Ireland,
sentiment of this country ; let us tell the people in high places he supported the measure on the ground of conciliation. He
that cunning is not caution, and that habitual perfidy is not had once heard an observation made by a Right Hon. Gentle-
high policy of state. On that ground we may all join. Let man opposite, " that we had come to the end of conciliation."
us bring back to this House that which it has for so long a time He was nut going to quarrel with any change of opinion which
past been without—the legitimate influence and salutary check experienee might have wrought on the minds ot Right Hon.
of a constitutional Opposition.—(Cheers.) That is what the Gentlemen opposite, but he considered that within the last
country requires, what the country looks for. Let us do it at two years a,great change had taken place with regard to the
once in the only way in which it can he done, by dethroning government of Ireland. We had adopted a different system to
this dynasty of deception, by putting an end to the into- that which had prevailed almost during the recollection of every
lerable yoke of official despotism and Parliamentary imposture. man in that House ; and he considered this, the last proposed
Mr. ROEBUCK said, he approached this question with con- act of the Right Hon. Gentleman, a most marked step in the
siderable apprehension as to whether he would be able ade- progress of this system of concession—a conquest over every
quately to explain the opinions he held upon it and the reasons successive Ministry that had governed Ireland since the passing
for his vote. He felt this the more because it appeared to him of the Reform Bill. It had sealed upon it the doctrine of con-
that this was a great national question, and that there was
cession,
and both the great parties of this country were
danger from what they had heard to-night
that all considera- now endeavouring to make all necessary concessions to
tions of national welfare would be forgotten in petty private Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) He took this measure as one
pique, and personal feeling.—(Cheers.) He did not like on great step in that concession, not because (as had
a question like this to see feelings of
a merely personal nature been asked) they expected all these great conse-
introduced to disturb those other considerations which must of quences from this paltry concession—from the difference
necessity. in that House, and
at thattime, excite great anxiety between 9,0001. and 28,000/. a year—for he did not expect
in the minds of all men who
_e t that they had a great duty to this. Ile might be asked, did he expect the priestood of Ire-
perform to the people,an who did not forget the interests of land to be bribed to our service by such means ? His answer
the people in considerations d f
concerning themselves.—( Hear, was, he did not want to do that • but he wanted to make the
hear.) And here he would for the l
moment make one pas • sur people feel that the system was changed,—that we were endea-
remark of a critical character. H
ate the 3 vouring to do justice to that unfortunate people. Though he e could not congratul • did
Hon. Member for Shrewsbury_ on the effect of the matter of not expect great results—though lie did not hope that thepriests
his speech ; it certainly hadnot been characterised by any of might he established in that country immediately, yet he did
that remarkable talent which was necessary to bear away the hope that when this great measure was communicated in :all
open malice which it evinced.—..(_ Hear, hear.) That speech its circumstances, the very opposition to it marking how strong
was certainl poor in its performance, however malicious in was the necessity on the Right Hon. Gentleman's mind of such
its motives.—y (Hear, hear. ) It was said to be something a proposition, this concession would convince the leaders of
•
.to be praised by one who was himself
. worthy of praise • so the Irish people, and address itself to their calm and thinking
it was hard to be acsamecuse° char . 1 inconsistency by one who was him- minds and generous feelings, and that their leaders and those
self open to he ge. Even if he (Mr. Roebuck) who wished to excite them for purposes of personal ambition
were unwilling to use towards the Hon. ;Member those hard would not have them, as they now had, so thoroughly at
words which seemed to stand in the place of wit on this occa- command and beck. Ile took this as the greatest boon that
sion, the argument, if argument it could be called, which had been conferred, not upon the people of Ireland, but upon
formed the SUM and substance of the Hon. Gentleman's speech, the people of England ; for we might depend upon it, that if
could be retorted on the Hon. Gentleman himself. What did assailed to-morrow from abroad, and we were to refuse
his charge amount to? Why, that the Right Hon. Baronet this grant, the insulted people of Ireland would recollect
had in former times held former opinions, and that with the the insult. They had been told by many ardent persons
change of times he bad changed his opinions. The Hon. Gen- that the religion of the Irish was a supestitution and inn-
tleman himself was open to the same
charge. What was
of their books had been brought forward to
the
moral, and parts
sort of constitutional opposition to which the Hots. Member • it ;and that to endow this college was to endow a col-
one at rove
time aspired? Why, it was not only a constitutional o leoe to teach immorality and superstition. The insulted
position, but a liberal one.—(Hear, hear. The great model people o' ,
f Ireland would ' recollect this • and we should find our
of his Parliamentary career was at one time the Hon. Member danger came not so much from abroad as it was at home. Our
for Montrose. Commencing life with these aspirations, he was chief enemies would be at home, and we should be weak, and
shortly afterwards to be found in
Baronet.
pen opposition behind the open to the insults of the world, because we had been unjust
back of the ight Honourable How came he there? to one-third of our countrymen. It was upon this great ground
That was an atural question. equally natural one wan, that he maintained the grant proposed by the Right Hon.
why did he remain there?—(Hear,
his Gentleman. Look at the condition of Ireland at the present
brilliant merits have been forgot hear.) If, indeed,
n, and the Right Igo-' moment. Suppose that at the present moment England was
nourable Baronet has indeed thought of measures and mot in the same situation, and Ireland in a situation totally at
of men—(Cheers and laughter)
--thero. indeed, we may variance with its present condition of great depress'n. Sup.
understand the position of the Hon, pose they could find some Saxon demagogue—some William
nate state of mind—unfortunate, Perhaps, only because be has Long-beard to appeal to the oppressed Saxon and point to his
never had afforded to him the oppe •
r unity of " coming below
Norman spoliator, and appeal to what was in the memory of
the gangway. " (Cheers.) But, he asked, were not these many living men, and speak of the desolation which
was spread
miserable displays on such a question ga_(Hea'r° When ;they through the land, of cabins burnt, of fields laid waste,
had the country from one end to the other excited by the thousands of people turned out to starve; suppose,was and of
deepest and strongest feelings respecting their religious b slid he could point to the scene of the patient ancdeserving,
and expectatiots, was it not deeplyto be regretted that boy priest, careless of danger, and wealth, an 4 -
power,