The Sun.
London, England, 1842-03-19 00:00:00

sible. There werealso one or two typographical errors
in the tariff. He was desirous to avoid successive noti-
fications ; a little delay had therefore been occa.sioned
that it might be laid correctly before the House. The
errors would be corrected as soon as pes::ible, and the
correct tariff would be laid on 'the table before the
House separated for the Easter recess.
Mr. G. WOOD said he thought it would be better to
reprint the tariff altogether.
Mr. HAWES said he understood the Right Hon.
contemplation.
Gentleman to say that thereweresem e
errors, and that some changes were in nte
Where there were. typographical errors he thought the
Right Hon. Gentleman ought to inform the House what
they were as soon as possible, that they might know
what were the errors and what the proposed changes.
Captain PECIIELL wished to know whether, in .the
proposition which had been made for placing a duty on
fish, which had been heretofore proposed, the effect
that duty would have on what had been done by the Select
Committee of Fisheries in 1833, and the convention with
the French in 1839, as to the exclusive right of fishing
within three miles of our coast, had been considered. He
wished to call the attention of the House to this subject; for
it whole fleets of French ship.; were allowed to fish on our
.ioast, and carry their fish for sale into the ports of
kent and elsewhere, the effect would be greatly to injure
our fisheries.
Sir ROBERT PEEL spoke in so low a tone of voice
that flue purport of, his answer did not reach us. •
PROPERTY FOR CHARITABLE USES.
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE wished to know from the Right
[lon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) whether theincome arising
rum funds or. lands for charitable purposes was to bee
subject to the income tax?
Sir R. PEEL said that it was not his intention that
the income arising from the rent of land, or public securi-
ties forcharitable purposes, should be subjected to the tax,
that was to say, when it was solely applied to such pur-
poses ; but the salary of public officers appointed to ad-
minister such property would not be exempt from the tax.
EXCHEQUER FRAUDS.
Dr. BOWRING wished to know from the Chancellor of
the Exchequer whether he would bring forward the sub-
ject of the Exchequer Frauds' Bill to-night.—(Alaugh.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did not
see any probability of being able to do so.
IRISH FISHERIES.
In answer to a question from Mr. Shiel, Lord ELIOT
s zid it was his intention to bring in a Bill during the
present Session on the subject of Irish Fisheries.
The Consolidated Fund Bill was read a third time
and passed.
A Message from the Lords brought up sundry Bills.
THE INCOME TAX.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL wished to know, from the
Right Honourable Baronet, whether it was his inten-
tion to make his statement of the manner in which he
proposed to collect the income tax, before the Speaker
left the Chair, or after the House should have gone into
Committee ?
Sir R. PEEL said he should make the statements im-
mediately'on the House resolvingitself into a Committee.
Lord J. RUSSELL thought if the Right Hon. Ba-
ronet had any explanation to make, it should be done
before the Speaker left the Chair, as it could not so
properly be made on a mere resolution in a Committee of
Ways and Means, as on a general statement of finance.
Sir R. PEEL said, when the House resolved itself
into a Committee of Supply, he would take the earliest
opportunity of laying the information required before
the House, and he proposed to commence the debate by
that statement. If he made it in Committee, he should
have the opportunity of speaking more than once, and
should be able to reply to any objections.
Mr. BARING said it was perfectly competent to the
Right Hon. Baronet to take the course he had
stated. Ho did not at all quarrel with the Right
Honourable Baronet for reserving his explanation
till he spoke on the Income Tax specifically, and
not on the general subject of the finances; but
having heard from the Right Hon. Baronet the pro-
pOsition of those measures which on the part of her
Majesty's Government, it would be the most satisfactory
course to explain the general nature of his plan (as we
understood) before the House went into Committee.
He would advert to the manner in which the
debate on Friday last was conducted. The Right Hon.
Baronet then gave a general view of the finances of the
country, and went into an explanation of his plan as a
whole, and not in reference to any particular measure.
The Right Hon. Baronet's statement on that occasion did
not call for any expression of pinion from gentlemen
on that (the Opposition) side of the House, and they
offered no opposition to the resolutions which the Right
Hon. Baronet considered necessary for the public ser-
vice. As to the particular measures which the Right
Hon. Gentleman had to propose, if they were fairly dis-
cussed in the Committee, after that fair discussion, dry.
Auld not oppose the Right Hon. Gentlemen. They were
eesng into the Committee to discuss the details of
the measure, and would have to examine each
particular detail, and not the general principle of one
great measure. He had now to trouble the House with
some observations, which he had great reluctance
to offer. The Right Honourable Baronet had
stated that he (Mr. Baring) had stated the expendi-
ture at more than it actually proved to be. There was
indeed, one particular point, in which the expenditure
had proved to be less than he had anticipated. That
was in the case of China. But he could assure the
House, that it was extremely difficult to get informa-
tion- at that time ; and he had laid the information
which he possessed as fairly before the House as he could.
Ile never pretended that his estimates were precisely
accurate as to amount, but he was afraid he could not
pay any great compliment to the calculations of the
Right 116 n. Baronet. The Right lion. Baronet seemed
to consider that the falling off in the revenue would be a
permanent one, but he (Mr. F. Baring) thought that di-
minution was attributable to circumstances not likely
again to occur, and that the income from these sources
would be much higher than the Right Hon. Baronet had
calculated on. He would not go into any details with
regard to the estimates of expenditure. Those were
matters which the House had already had before
them in detail, and the greater part of whick had been
voted, and from the circumstances of the country he could I
not see any likelihood of any diminution taking place.
iu these estimates. He would, therefore, take the
annual expenditure at 50,819,000/. Now, with regard
to the estimates of income, he would say, speaking from
his own experience from a pretty long connexion with
the Treasury, that even the officers of the Treasury it-
self, and who had for years been connected with that
department, are unable to make anything like a correct
estimate of the income ; and as for any one else, without
their information, attempting to do it, was clearly impossi-
ble. It was generally known that at the period when Chan-
cellors of Exchequer usuallymade their statements the do-
cuments on which they were founded, and which were pre-
pared in their own offices, always, somehow or other,
found their way to the public. These papers, which
v.-ere of a dent-official character, he 'should treat as
authorities, and on those papers he should found the
argument he was about to address to the House. From
those papers he found that the annual expenditure
amounted to 50,819,000/., the income to 48,350,0001.,
and the deficiencies to 2,553,000/. The Right
Honourable Baronet had correctly stated the expen-
di:ure at 50,819,0001., and the income at 48,350,000/..
leaving a deficiency, on the whole, of 2,569,000/. In
ste ting this deficiency the Right Hon. Baronet was not
quite correct in his cakulations. Now, when
lie (Mr. Baring) was at the Exchequer, he
found the deficiency to be 100,000/. less, being
2,469,000/. instead of 2,569,000/, so that ie was
happy to say the Right Hon. Baronet was mistaken
to the amount of 100,000/, and it was no small console-
to him (Mr. Baring) to be able to band over to the
Mglit Hon. Barone: an additional 100,000/. in the
present state of his finances.—(Langliter and cheers.)
Formerly the Right Hon. Baronet taunted him with not
t,ding able to get much out of him when lie (Mr. 13.) was
fishing for a budget, but he had tiecome more fortunate
since he (Mr. 13.) had left that side of the water in which
the Right Hon. Barenet and his colleagues. had
been for some :iese splashing. Now he (Mr. Baring)
had caught 100,0001., which, with perfect good humour,
lie begged to offer to the Right Hon. Baronet, as the first
fruits of his (Mr. B.'s) financial fishing on that side of
the stream.—(Leughter.) Now, as the whole of this
discussion turned upon the financial deficiency,
he would beg leave to refer to the deficiency as
it arose, in order that the House might nn-
de.rstand the case exactly. The first year in which
a deficiency occurred was in the year 1837-38, when
the amount was 1,418.000/., a, large deficiency certa:nly,
but how had it arisen ? Gentlemen who were acquainted
with that period would re. ollect that it was a year of
almost unparalleled difficulty; that the revenue bad fallen
off to an extraordinary extent, cr to speak more
correctly, that the eevenue of 1836 and 1837 had
anticipated to a great extent that of 1837 and 1838.
On that occasion he perceived that the total ordinary
revenue, taking it loosely, fell off by about 2,500,000/.
in the course of one year. He did not wish to
look back then—to any mistakes which may for-
merly have An committed by any party, and which every
one might commit ; but be should say that if they were
still in the same situation, adverting to the circumstances
of the year, adverting to the position of the revenue,
and adverting to the elasticity of these resources,
which had hitherto borne the revenue harmless through
much greater difficulties—he should say that the course
which he then pursued was a wise and proper
course—"he meant the course of filling up the defi-
ciency of one year by the excess of former years.
It appeared to him that it would be exceedingly inadvis-
able on the first moment of an unexpected pressure to
have recourse to additional taxation upon that occason ;
the anticipation of an increased revenue turned out
to a certain extent to be correct, for the deficiency which
in the years 1837-8 amounted to 1,438,000/., the next
year was diminished by a sum of 1,000,000/. ; and the
entire deficiency was then only four hundred and
thirty thousand. lie felt perfectly confident, in
addition, that if it had not been for those events which
afterwards occurred, if it had not been, for instance,
for the insurrection which had broken out in Canada,
and the necessary addition to our establishment there,
and the subsequent expense which this country incurred,
he felt perfectly confident that had it not been for those
events the next year would not have witnessed that
deficiency in the estimates which had taken place,
but would have witnessed the revenue and
the income equalling each other.—(Hear, hear.) He
admitted, however, that this had not been the case.
In the year 1839 the deficiency amounted to 4,457,0001.;
and, in addition, he had to calculate upon the esti-
mated -deficiency in the future Post-office revenue
for the yatr 1839-40. Under these circum-
stances, after he had come into office, he felt
it his duty to take those steps wbiele he thought would
be most likely to contribute to equalise this eavenne and
the estimated expenditure of the country.—(dear,
hear.) The Right Honourable Baronet opposite had
made certain observations, which were no doubt
perfectly fair and proper upon the financial system of
the Ministers who had
preceded him ;but it was his
(Mr. Baring's) -desire upon that occasion, not intro-
duce anything jilto the discussion of a persona' nature,

The question under our consideration was one of the deepest
importance to the country. The question was, what was
the financialscourse which they should now pursue ? and
he, in common with the Right Hon. Baronet, would
have to speak of past transactions ; but he could
assure the Right Honourable Baronet and the House,
that he would endeavour as much as possible to look
upon them in an impartial point of view, and not to in-
troduce those topics of recrimination which might
enliven their debates, but which could be attended with no
beneficial result. On She occasion to which he re-
ferred he had recourse to an increase of 5 per
cent. upon the Customs and Excise, and also
an income of 10 per cent. upon the assessed taxes
There was no donbt that those taxes which were placed on
articles of consumption were liable to increase and dimi-
minish with the soon; ition of the country and the great
body of the consumers ; and if we calculated on au increase
of revenue derivable from consumable asticles, we
always depended on an uncertainty—(Hear)—and no
human being could depend on that, even for 5 per
cent. The main point in all these questions was, first,
this question in the Treasury department, " What is
the harvest ?" If the harvest were good, the revenue
seldom fails to be made up.—(Hear, hear.) But if
there be a succession of bad harvests, and the community
were in a state of distress, it was not the 5 per
cent. which produced a diminution in the customs, but
a much greater evil —the pressure arising from
the calamitous position of the greater part of the
consumers. The Right Hon. Gentleman stated that he
wished to show that we could not look forward to
increased taxation for articles of subsistence, and con-
sidering the different modes of raising the taxes, he came
to that of the 5 per cent. Now when they were goits-
on a calculation which had been the foundation of the
conclusions of the Right Hon. Baronet—that it was not
expedient, but hardly possible to increase the taxation of
the country by laying a tax on consumable
commodities, he (Mr. B.) did say that if that was
the foundation of the Righi Honourable Baronet's
proposition, he bad made a most egregious
mistake in the amount -of those commodities.
The Right Hon. Baronet had said, that the 5 per cent.
tax which he imposed, produced only 206,000/. but
when the circumstances were inquired into, that
statement would not be found to be correct. The
Right Honourable Baronet had forgotten corn
which entered largely into the calculation.—(Hear,
hear.) The 5 per cent. tax was never placed on corn,
and therefore it was not at all touched by the tax of
5 per cent. The Right Hon. Baronet therefore
in making the failure of the 5 per cent. tax the founda-
tion of the plan which he now proposed, should have
recollected that the House had not exhausted all the
means of supplying the revenue.—(Hear, heai.)
He (Mr. B.) was not now contending whether it was not
more advisable to have a more direct tax ; but if the
Right Hon. Gentleman had based his plan on the failure of
the 5 per cent tax, he reckoned without his host. He
had not all the official papers before him, but the net pro-
duce of the customs and excise amounted in the year 1839
to 35,990,0001., not including corn ; but if he took off
the amount raised from corn, which was 198,0001.,
the amount would be only 33,995,0001. In the
year 1841 the net produce of the Customs and Ex-
cise amounted to 35,537,0001., but the tax on corn
produced 575,000 L, which, being deducted, the amount
)1. the Customs and Excise duties was 35,200,0001., leaving,
instead of 206,0001., as was ascertained by the Right
Hon. Baronet, 1,700,000/. for his tax.—(Cheers, and
" hear, hear," from Sir Robert Peel.) He should like-to
hear an answer to that. In the year 1841, when he
proposed the tax of 5 per ceut. the Right Hon. Baronet
did not urge very strong objections, but he said that
he would prefer an increase of 2d. on the postage,
and the Right Honourable Gentleman, then
Chancellor of the Exchequer, adopted the same view, but
it was remarkable that when they came into office
they saw objections to that plan.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
As far as he could make out the result of the increase of
5 per cent. on duties was a produce of 1,706,000/ The his-
tory and circumstances of the year 1841, were, he believed,
too recent in the memory of Hon. Gentlemen, to render
it necessary for him, in any shape, to call their atten-
tion to it. He wished, however, and he thought it not
unfair, to state that he proposed duties to be imposed by
which certain duties could be raised from sugar, and
timber, and corn. He had not the slightest wish to
go into those party altercations bandied about
on both sides of the •House .on that occa-•
sion ; but he wished to know as far as he
could what would have been the result of his proposal.—
(Hear, hear.) He wished to know whether his plan
was really so wild and visionary, and such a contemp-
tible bubble as he remembered he was told it was.
The Right Honouruble Baronet had never allluded.
to that part of the subject. He did net know whether he
intended it or not, but when, in his statement, he was
exhausting the different modes of raising money, he
said, " shall I recur to the plan of decreasing duties, and
shall I by that means obtain a larger revenue ?" lf that
was supposed by the Right Hon. Baronet, or any other
Hon. Gentleman,"to be the plan which he (Mr. Baring)
submitted to the House, he was sure he could not have
the slightest conception of the nature of the proposal. He
did reduce the duty on corn, but he thought he could show,
without the slightest difficulty, that they would have had
not only the increase which they had actually received, but
also the increase which, he was considered so sanguine
in estimating at the time when he brought his
imported
2,388,072 forward, for theie had been
2,388,072 quarters of foreign wheat and flour—(Oppo-
sition cheers)—which would have been subjected to the
duty of Bs. per quarter— (Hear, hear) —222,000 quarters
of barley, at 4s. 6d. a quarter, besides rye, beans, and peas ;
so that if they had adopted the measure of his Noble
Friend last year; instead of the addition of 575,000/. of
revenue, they would have received upwards of 900,000 L.
which was what he was taunted with being too sanguine
in anticipating.—(Opposition cheers.) But instead even
of the 900,000/., the revenue on the corn actually im-
ported would have been 1,105,0001.
Several MEMBERS on the .Opposition— On corn alone;
Mr. BARING—On corn alone. He thought he
heard a whisper on the other side, "Oh yes, but
it would never come in." Now it would not only come
in, but the corn would not have been one 6d. dearer.
lie would not go any further into that part of the
question. Now with regard to sugar, he per-
fectly admitted that the Right Honourable Baronet
had received an addition of revenue of 560,000/.,
by the operation of the 5 per cent. But that
was not quite 'so much as he (Mr. Baring)
would have received. That was looked -upon as a
great triumph on the other side, because
they had obtained it without any change
of the law, whereas they said that his proposition would
have endangered property in the West Indies, an effect
which he entirely denied. He took 700,000/. as
the probable increase by the plan proposed
last year. But he told the House at the
time that he had greatly underestimated his revenue, and
that he had got a much larger amount. Every return
laid upon the table, and every information which he re-
ceived, convinced him that without an ounce of foreign
sugar being imported lie would have received
considerably more, and he thought that he
would not only have had, the 575,000/, but
700,000/. in addition to that which the Right
Hon. Baronet had admitted come in so .luckily.
lie had understood the amount last year, and
he did not intend this year to go to ex-
cess, but ha felt satisfied that what he had
stated was , correct He bad been assured last
year by the Honourable Gentleman opposite that the
supply, of sugar from the East and West Indies
would be amply sufficient to meet the consumption of the
country. The Right Hon. Gentleman had assured him that
there could be no fear but what such would be the case.
lie (Mr. F. T. Baring) had met that by another state-
ment, which was that he would not fix the consumption of
the country. but the country ought-to have as large a
supply of sugar as they pleased.—(immeese cheering.)
That was the state in which he had left the ques-
tion. And now he would call the attention of
the House to the facts which weald show that
he was right. If they referred to the returns before
the house they would find that the. supply had
been taken out, from day to day, by the
consumer, and he contended that it there had
been a larger supply there would have been a
larger demand.— (Loud Opposition cheers.) He should be
able to show that if sugar could be procured under a
certain given price, the consumption would go on to an
extent almost unlimited, but the moment it rose beyond a
certain price, consumption was checked—the poorer
class of consumers ceased to buy, and they were
obliged to depend upon a smaller class of con-
SillnerS. He thought he could show that during the
last year the demand had not been met by the supply.
Ile did not pts tend to say thlit he could
show that sugar had been consumed which had
never been brought to market, but as far as he could
judge from the returns laid on the table, he thought he
could show that a further supply would have been met
by a further dernand. In 1840 it was agreed
on all hands that stocks were very low. In 1840, the
total amount imported was 4,105,000 cwts., including
foreign sugar warehoused ; the total amount of British
Colonial sugar was 2,230,000 c vt.; and the total
amount taken out for home consumption was
3,606,000 ewts. shewing a deficiency of colonial
supply for the year 1840, of 376,000 cwt. that
being the amount by which the demand for
home consumption exceeded the supply in 1840.
The quantity of sugar inspected in 1841 was 4,883,000
cwt., deducting the foreign, amounting to 806,000 ewt,
The whole of the colonial supply which reached
the market, was 4,077,000 cwt., of which consumed
4,065,000 cwt., leaving a surplus of only 11,000 cwt.
upon a stock which had been long imported, and was
diminishing. Now, was he wrong in contending that
according to their own figures, and their own statements,
that if there had been a greater supply— if the trade
had been opened in the manner he desired—the demand
would have been increased, and also the revenue would
have been increased ?—(Cheers.) But this was not
all ; the Right Honourable Gentleman had offered
the House a statement of the stock of sugar, and
which might be advantageously compared with another
statement of stock also issued by the West Indian body,
when the discussion took place on sugar in 1840.
—(Hear.) The latter statement was merely in
anticipation of the quantity of sugar that would
come in, but it was so near the actual results, that his
authority might be relied upon. The stock, as stated
by them, for the Ist of January, 1841, was
700,000 cwt. Now the return by th;RighltareHohn:
Baronet, said that the stoels on the Bth of
1842 was only 539,000 cwt. The result, therefore, be-
tween the two statements was, that from the Ist January,
1841, until the present time, the deficiency in the supply
had been 112,000 cwt. less than the demand of the former
Year.—(Cheers.) Now, therefore, he (Mr. Baring)
trlght he had good grounds for stating, that if sugar
hcl be 6, more extensively supplied, at a reason-
able price, the consumption, WO consequently the
revenue, would have greatly increased ; ancl it
must be recollected that if any foreign sugar en-
tered, it -would not have been at 245. but 365.
When bp bad Addressed the Rouse upon a former occa-

sion, with respect to the sugar duties, he laid on the table
of the House a document which showed the consumption
of sugar, with relation to the population of...the country.
When that article was at a moderate price, the quantity of
sugar in molasses which had altogether been received in
this country carts 4,233,000 cwt. If the average cal-
culation of the average consumption per head
was taken for eleven years as a basis for ascertaining
the quantity of sugar consumed, it would be
found that it would amount to 4,445,000 cwt. in addition
to what had been already received, which amounted to
758,000 cwt. Upon that subject, he (Mr. Baring)
was anxious to refer to the opinions of a public officer,
who, though he disagreed svith him on general topics,
he (Mr. Baring) was desirous to express in
that House the high estimate he had always
entertained of that gentleman—he alluded to the late
Mr. Deacon Hume.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. Hume told
himself' (Mr. Baring) that though he was
not very friendly to the proposition of the
Government, it was his (Mr, Hume's) opinion that
it was 'calculated to increase the revenue con-
siderably; and with regard to timber, he
thought he could also satisfy the House.
There were, he believed, many Hon. Gentlemen, who
voted against his proposed scale, of timber duties, who
never doubted that it would lead to an increase in the
revenue, as he had anticipated. The Right lion. Ba-
ronet had made some observations against his scheme;
but he Would remind the House and the Right
Honourable Baronet of something which had hap-
pened befgre with regard to the timber duties.— (Hear.)
He should say that a remarkable forgetfulness had been
shown of the occurrence to which he was about to
allude.—(Hear, hear, hear.) In the year 1821
there was a Committee upon foreign trade. Thal
Committee had published a very full and de too
report ; he believed that Lord Wallace
chairman on the occasion, and the presen,
Lord Ripon was at the time Vice-President of the Board
of -Trade. He did not mention that for the pur-
pose of criminating either of those parties—he was
aware that in matters of finance men must change their
minds when they received additional information. It
would be absurd to attempt to fasten an imputation on a
party, because after ten or twelve years he had altered
his opinions on subjects of so intricate a nature, and he
had not therefore the slightest wish to throw imputation
upon any one by the observation he was about to make.
But what were the recommendations of that Committee?
They gave it as their opinion that, for the purpose of re-
lieving, and in order. to carry into operation the wisest
principles, it was advisable that the differential duty be-
tween Canada timber and Baltic timber should be
materially diminished. They stated that there
were three courses open to the Legislature.
They might increase the-duty upon Canada timber, a
course the Committee did not recommend ; secondly,
they might reduce the Baltic timber only, a course which
they did not recommend either ; and thirdly, they might
increase the duty upon Canada timber from a nominal
duty to 10s., and reduce the Baltic timber from the
amount at which it then stood. That .last course was the
one which the Committee recommended, and theprinciple
it involved was that which he (Mr. Baring) had adopted.
It was said, indeed, that his plan was an imperfect one,
but he did not believe there was any party that could be
considered as an authority who was not satisfied that it
was a step at least in the right road. On that occasion
he had proposed to carry into effect that principle which
he thought was the proper basis- upon which the com-
mercial legislature of the country ought to rest.—(Hear.)
Now he would show them what was the result of that
measure—what was the amount of revenue received from
it. In 1820, the amount received for the duty in
timber was 927,000/. He would not take the
years 1821 or 1822, bnt he would next take 1823,
and the result of the timber duties in that year
was 1,552,0001. being an increase of 625,0001. on the
then increased consumption oftimber. The consumer made
no complaint at that time, and he should think from that
time the consumption of timber of all sorts had increased.
If he had gone into those details connected with the ar-
rangement which he had the honour once to propose to
the House, he could assure them that he had not been
induced to take that step by any personal consideration;
with a view to defend himself, or with any obstinacy, to
show that he was not wrong in the proposals he had
formerly made.—(Hear, hear.) His object was one of
much greater importance ; it was one of deep import-
ance, when they came to consider what they had to do
with respect to the finances of the country. His object
was to show that they had not exhausted either of the
sources to which reference had been made. His object
was to tell them that, when they came to look at the
whole course which they had to pursue, when it was
their choice—and he admitted that it was an un-
fortunate choice—to add, in some shape or other,
to the burdens of the country, that there was none
of that impossibility on which alone could be jus-
tified their recourse to the course they had adopted.
The Right Hon. Baronet; in the statement which he
made to the House, in a speech which, however, had
differed from the .results to which that Right Hon.
Baronet came, he could not but admire, had
said, that the actual deficiency. he had to make up
amounted to 2,569,000/. ; and including the expenses
which he might be put to on account of China, and the
late intelligence from Affghanistan, he thought the
sum to be raised should amount to 3,000,000/,
and leaving 500,000/. for other purposes, which the exi-
gencies of the country required, he proposed to raise
an amount of 4,300,000/. Of this sum, leaving out
3,000,000/. required for the public service, there
remained the sum of 1,300,0001., which he pro-
posed to dispose of in reducing the tariff,
and other deductions of duty which he explained to the
House. The House would therefore see that the Right
Hon. Gentleman's proposition included not only the
raising an amount of money, equal to the acknowledged
wants of the country, but likewise a further amount of
1,300,000/. for th e purpose ofdealing with reductions in the
tariff, and for thegeneral commercial benefit of the country.
They ought to look a little into the principles of the
plan which the Right lion. Baronet proposed. It was
absolutely necessary for gentlemen feeling less strongly
than he did in reference to the proposition of the Right
lion. Baronet, when they were told that they
would receive a new commercial tariff and a
reduction on certain articles, it was but fair
and necessary, he asserted, for them at least to consider
upon what principles this new commercial code was pro-
posed, and what were the changes held out as tempta-
tions to the public, and the commercial community in
particular, to submit to the income tax. They had looked
at what those proposals were, and what the principles
on which they were founded. The Right Hon. Baronet
had stated that there were certain alterations and
changes to be male, in consequence of typographical
errors—he hoped they were no more than typographi-
cal—and which errors he proposed to rectify.
But there was one principle which run through tins
whole plan—a principle of which the Right Hon. Baro-
net -said nothing in his opening speech ; but which,
in his (Mr. Baring s) opinion, was fraught with
danger and alarm to the commercial interests
of the country. What hail been the extent 'to
which, before this, they carried their protective and dif-
ferential duties ? They had protected some of the great
and leading interests of the Colonies, but never before
this had they gone into all small and trifling details.
But they had not laid down that principle
throughout, that in every trifling case it was an im-
portant principle to have differential duties to protect
the Colouies.(Hear, hear.) That was the principle
which ran throughout the whole project of the Right
Hon. Baronet.—(Loud cheers from the Opposition.)
There is not a single article that was not made a
subject of differential duty, whether it is produced in
the Colonies or not. Take the. first article.--(Cheers
and laughter.) Now, the Right Hon. Gentleman him-
self said that there As ere 1,200 articles in the
tariff, and that he had prepared his project
after the Cabinet had given to each article
the fullest consideration. Having, therefore, delibe-
rately aonsidered the average' price of every colonial
article—(Laughter)—the Right Hon. Baronet gave a
protection of 100 per cent. to colonial asses.—(Great
laughter.) Now, that reminded him of the expression
used by the Right Hon. Gentleman himself, that " this
was ridiculous legislation"—(Cheers from the Opposition)
--to see a Cabinet sitting deliberately in council on the
protection due to colonial asses.—(lncreased laughter.)
Why in one place they gave a protection of 100 per cent.
to eau-de-cologne, the produce of the colony.—(Loud
laughter.) He knew perfectly well how that had been
done. A principle was laid down—there was no con-
sideration of the absolute necessity for these pro-
tections—there was no consideration of the fa-
vour or protection due, to the negro population—there
was- no fear of the supply of asses failing—(Loud
laughter)—there was no fear of the supply of eau-de-
cologne not being equal to the demand if the Rhine
should be shut up ; but there was laid down one prin-
ciple which was, that in all possible cases, and under
all possible circumstances, they would create differential
duties.—(Loud Opposition cheers.) That was the
principle on which they had acted. (Continued
cheering.) But even that principle had not been carried
persons entirely em-
ployed c orki 'There
a
t Lgs a e
. lie lead tt
iad). been told that by the
reductions they were making in the tariff these persons,
out)ioy justly.e
t,
inir
who were the creatures of the protective system which
bad been fostered in this kingdom, would have their in-
terest most materially affected. He did not tell them that
for the purposes of carrying out the general pirnciples
of free trade, they would have to remove thatprotecti ;
they had no right to do so, but he would tell them that.
these persons had a right, not unfairly, to complain
they found that the protection was taken a_ wa a.-
_from
them ; but protection upon many
articles of colotnal pro-
duce'
had been increased, and in many instance articles had
been protected which had never before received pro-
tection.—(Cheers.) In the schedule there were no less
than 246 new protections introduced ; many of them
were said to be of so small an amount, that they were
really not worth consideration. But he thought that
man was not a wise man who would venture
to foretell what might be the ultimate
result of any protection, however small. He
firmly believed' that a considerable portion of that
inconvenience from which trade was at present suffering,
arose from the injudicious attempts which had been
made to-give protection to particular trades, at a time
when it was wrongly thought they required the
fostering care of the State,—(Hear, hear, hear.)
Take another article which the Government
proposed to deal with—this was
tobacco, which chiefly
came from the United States. The duty was 3s. At
one time Mr. Huskisson thought he could grow tos
bacco irl our American colonies, and he did therefore
introduce a rpdpptiop pf 3d, in favour pf tobacco
coming from the West Indies and North America
against that of the United States. But this had not
extended to India. But now he would ask of them to
consider what they were about to -do. It was one
thing to take away protection, and another thing
to create it for people who had it not ' • the
extension of that differential duty which now
stiJOd on their }looks would, he believed, not make the
article a farthing chedper'to the English consumer, nor
would benefit India, but the differential 3d. would be

was

taken out of the Indian revenue, and would place it in
the pockets Of the East Indian speculator. Next, there
was Assam tea—he really hoped the Right Hon. Baronet
would not "compel him to drink it—(Laughter)—
but he would pause to ask the Right Honourable
Baronet what would be the effect of these new
principles now introduced into the tariff; when he
came to negotiate with other countries ? The
policy of wiser men, in later times, had been to
liberalise tariffs, and to reduce destructive And differen-
tial duties. But the Right lion. Baronet was so de-
voted to the opposite principle, that he would not allow
even millinery to escape him. Then, when we asked
foreign countries to relax their differential prin-
ciples in favour of us, they would refuse, and
add, that we carried our differential principles to
such an extent as to make ourselves ridiculous.
And was there nothing to be considered as regarded the
future ?—(Hear, hear.) All those several interests
might be considered trifling or small in themselves. The
Right Hon. Gentleman (Sir R. Peel) may ask " Whether
you want to add to that difficulty—to that opposition
which every man must find in attempting to
advance one single step (Laughter) —in intro-
ducing those great and important changes ?"—(Cheers
from the Opposition)—but it was for the House to say—
when they looked back at those topics, and began to
deal with those principles propounded by the Right Hon.
Baronet, and to consider whether they were not worthy of
their most serious consideration—the real question was,
whether the people were prepared to undergo the pres-
sure of an income tax fin. the tariffs founded upon
the principles of the measure proposed by the Right
Honourable Baronet.—(Cheers from the Opposition.)
He (Mr. Baring) did not now, for the first time, adopt
the opinions which he had then expressed ; but he had
entertained and expressed them year after year. When
he had the honour of holding the office of Chancellor
under the late Government he expressed those opinions.
He would then apply himself to that which was the most
importantconsideration for the House, he should say that
he could not allow the proposition of the Right Ho-
nolirable Baronet to go forth without expressing the
opinions entertained by him (Mr. Baring) in reference to
that part of it which would press most heavily upon the
country. He thought that the proposition of an income
tax was deserving of the serious and sober consideration
of the country. They should consider whether that im-
post, which they were now to be subjected to, should
be carried on—whether there was any other possible
and less objectionable mode, by which the money pro-
posed to be raised could be obtained.—(Hear, hear.)
When lie came down to the House he had not the
slightest notion that the Right Hon. Baronet intended
to propose such a measure. He knew it would probably
be necessary for him (Mr. Baring) and his friends to
take a discussion upon the measure proposed
by the Right Honourable Baronet ; and that it
would be their duty to vindicate the principles
of the measure which was proposed by the late Govern-
ment—to show,that it would be better to raise the sum
of money proposed to be raised by the Right Hon. Baronet
upon those principles than upon the principles and accord-
ing to the mode represented by the present Government.
On hearing the statement made by the Right Hon. Ba-
ronet, he believed it was not the intention of gentlemen
on this side of the House to have opposed any tax that
might have been proposed from the opposite side of the
House, or to enter into any party step or proceed-
ings, so as to-raise difficulties that would prevent the
collection of the sums necessary for the public service.
On this question—upon this tax only did they feel it ne-
cessary to give all that opposition to the proposal—the
unfortunate proposal of her Majesty's Government,
which they thought it merited.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
Was this a just tax ? Was this an equal tax ?—(Hear,
hear.) These were questions of deep importance
for the country to consider. Was it fair that those who
were in the permanent occupation of property—that
those whose property descended from father to son, who
may dispose of it as they choose, should be taxed no more
than those whose annual income depended not on their
life or any particular age, but some casual accident, some
unfortunate deprivation of sight, or some other of the
many accidents to which humanity was liable,
which might for ever deprive them of all
chanCe of making any provision for their family.
He believed the Right Hon. Gentleman was already
aware of what that large and influential body, the Bank
of England, thought of the proposal which taxed equally
the annual produce of permanent funded property
and terminable annuities. He could conceive nothing
more unequal, unfair, and unjust, than that mode of tax-
ation. He had heard parties state that this was
the fairest and most equitable mode of collecting
a revenue, but he firmly believed that there was
no tax which would work more unfairly, more unequally,
or cause more, dissatisfaction than this. He remembered
when he was on that side of the House he had
asked a question of the Right, Honourable 'Baronet
—he was certainly rather unfortunate in asking ques-
tions of him— (A laugh)—as to what the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman would propose himself. He opposed his plans, and
lie asked him what he would do. He believed .he
would not have that question put to him to-night.
He would not then shrink from the statement which he
made when he had the honour of occupying a seat on the
benches opposite. On a former occasion, when the mea-
sures of the late Ministry were opposed by the Opposi-
tion of that day,' he used the following language:—" I do
not ask from Hon. Gentlemen opposite that kind of infor-
mation which was wrung from me last year to the inconve-
nience of the public revenue—not their particular taxes, but
the general course which they are prepared to adopt.
I do not call upon them to specify the actual
taxes they may propose, but the 'general course
of their policy."—(Hear, -hear.) Now he was not pre-
pared to give a budget to the Right Hon. Gentleman.
Nothing, he thought, could be more indecorous and im-
proper than such a course. He should not certainly
fed that he was justified in opposing even the present
course of the Right Honourable Baronet, to which
he objected, unless he thought that the other
sources of the revenue offered a means of
avoiding the calamity which he believed
would follow the proposal of the Right Hon. Baronet.—
(Hear, hear.) He had himself suggested last year a
scheme for increasing the revenue of the country, but he
would not go over the discussion of that scheme
He had already explained the reasons which induced
him to believe at the time, and which induced him
still to think that money might be raised to meet
to a great, if not to the entire extent, the exigencies
of the State. He had proposed a plan by which he
thought that a large portion, at least, of the public
deficiency might be supplied ; and that pro-
posal was rejected. Could any- man tell him
that with the enormous amount of taxation which had
been repealed since the war, it was necessary to have
recourse to so obnoxious a proposal as that of the Right
lion. Gentleman ? In the Custom taxes there had been
a reduction since the war of 7,500,000/. ; in the Excise
there had been a reduction of 12,000,000/. ; and in the
Stamps there had been a reduction of 866,000/. The Right
Hon. Gentleman now proposed to levy a certain amount
of taxation, not by direct taxes, but by another mode
of taxation. The Right Hon. Gentleman stated that he
did not mean that the income should extend to Ireland,
but he proposed to give Ireland an equivalent for that tax,
and he proposes taxes himself to the amount of 600,0001.,
Hatt was to say 400,000/. in Ireland and 200,000/. at
home. Part of this was direct taxation. Did they mean to
tell him that if they could produce 400,000/. from Ireland
with this means of taxation, that they could not find
means of restoring public credit without appealing to
that tax—(Hear)—which had hitherto been considered as
the last resource of the Treasury, and to be applied to
only in cases of the greatest difficulty ?—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. Vansittart, in the year 1819, came down to the
House and asked for 3,000,000/. which he considered ab-
solutely necessary for the preservation of public credit, but
he found taxes without applying to this last resort ; and
certainly this raise of 3,000,0000/. did not bring
down the public welfare, for in the years 1822,
1823, and 1824, a larger amount of taxes was repealed.
from additional consumption and improvement in the
trade of the country.—(ffear, hear.) He thought he
ought not to delay the House, but there was one point
on which the Right Hon. Gentleman had not given any
explanation---as to the machinery which he might
employ. He could not help, therefore, calling. the
attention of the House to one important operation
—he meant the petition of the merchants of
London, when the previous tax was in existence
This petition was agreed to at a meetinprstated to con-
tain all the wealth and respectability of the City
of London ; and it had been stated in the House, that
there had been an attempt to ge' up a counter petition,
but this only received 23 signatures ; this petition came
to the House expressing the. experience and feeling of
the whole mercantile classes in London ; and they would
remember that that petition was moved in that meeting
by the very gentleman who had been the anther of the tax.
Hear what was their experience and opinion as to the
working of a measure similar to the one now before the
House. The petitioners stated that a property or income
tax was at variance with sound principles, and could
only be submitted to in cases of the most urgent
necessity, and that its operation upon trade and
commerce would be most disastrous from its inqui-
sitorial character.—(Hear, hear.) They stated that
during the late trying circumstances in which the
country was placed they submitted with patience
to the tax, though extremely vexatious, under the
conviction that on th 3 return of peace the
tax would be done away with. They stated that no
modification of the details would be effectual, because,
in their opinion, the tax was obnoxious in principle,
and would be an alarming precedent, if; in time
of peace, they had recourse to those resources,
which would only be adopted when the honour
and independence of the country was involved ;
and I concluded by stating that the tax would be in-
jurious, not only in diminishing the domestic
comforts and prosperity of the country, but to
its prosperity and honour.—(Hear,) Such was the
petition of the merchants of London, presented to that
House on the 18th of March,- 1816, the anniversary of
the day on which the Right Hon. Baronet came
down to explain a similar measure to the Hoye,
—(Cheers.) That petition was received with
a shout of unaninions aPpianse by persons of all parties,
He hoped that in the course he had pursued he had, es
far as was possible, avoided anything 'like recriminatory
language, but he certainly entertained the deepest and
most sincere feelings with ,regard to the proposition now
before the House—(Hear, hear)—and if they were to
stand alone, he should be happy to have recorded his
dissent from what he believed to be an unnecessary tat
The CHANCELLOR of the XCHEQUER said it
was perfectly natnral that tha- Fight 'Honourable
Gentleman opposite should haVe taken the earliest
opportunity of stating his opinions of the
financial measure of her Majesty's Qo'Vernraentl and he
(the Chancellor of the gx.ehequer) had no complaint to
make of the tone in which he (Mr. Baring) delivered
nimself. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) would ab-
stain from all recriminatory topics also and would confine
himself to the arguments of the Right Hon. Bart. How-
ever, he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) must express
his surprise that while the Right Honourable C-en 7
tlemen expressed his surprise of the t.nett.inisVriVised4'6`t,

avoided stating what plan he would himself pursue.
He made is speech, but offered nothing for the House to
decide upon, so that what course the Right Hon. Gentle-
man would pursue, was as yet unknown to the House.
The Noble. Lord opposite said, that the Right Hon.
Gentleman would vote against the resolution in
Committee. He (the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer) therefore thought that it would be more
consistent with ordinary usage if he had re-
served himself for the time when they could
have tested the conflicting opinions of the House.
As the Right Hon. Gentleman bad travelled over a long
period and a great length of transactions, be (the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer) would follow him along several
topics. The Right Honourable Gentleman com-
menced by referring to the period when
the deficiency in the revenue of the country
now calling for a supply first began, for it was
for the accumulation of deficiencies, which com-
menced in 1838-39 we had now to pro-
vide, and according to the Right -Honourable
Gentleman's own confession it was the deficiency
of that year that led to those necessities which
now obliged the Government to lay on fresh taxa-
tion for the use of the State. The Right Ilon.
Gentleman said he was justified in having permitted the
large deficiency that occurred in 1838 to remain at the end
of the year, for there were no extraordinary occurrences
which called for a new tax on the public; and then' he
eulogised that system of borrowing and temporary
arrangement which had brought the present
misfortunes on the country—(Loud cheers)—
and which had entailed on the present Government,
as it must have entailed upon any Govern-
ment the necessity of new taxing the public
to repair the errors of their predecesscrs. The Right
Hon. Gentleman referred to 1838-39, as if it was a time
that promised permanent tranquillity and immediate
ease, and required no provisions for the exigencies of
the State. Had the Right Honourable • Gentleman
forgotten that in these two years, circumstances
were threatening enough to tell the Government that the
finances of the country must not be allowed to
fall into delapidation and ruin ? Had he for-
gotten that in that year we had the mis-
fortune to witness a serious revolution in Canada,
to the causes of which he (the Chancellor of
the Exchequer) need not now particularly refer.
These occurrences threatened to involve the country in
an increased expenditure for that year, and they
had, in fact, entailed a great expenditure, which helped
to increase the deficiency. Was there not enough then
to warn a prudent Ministry that they ought not to go on,
or if they did go on they ought to continue at a future
time to avert the consequences. Not only was there
a want of energy shown in not providing for the exigen-
cies of the country ; but it appeared still more
from circumstances which he would detail.
Unalarmed as the Government were—expecting the tran-
splant s to come, and unwilling to face the difficulty of new
taxes—they reduced the balance of thecountry below the
amount at which for a long time it had been maintained.
(Hear from the Ministerial side.) At the period to which,
referred, that is, the sth of January, 1837, the balance
was 6,490,0001. On the sth of January last year
it was reduced to 3,500,000/.—(Cries of " Hear,
hear.") And let not the House suppose that this
was an inconsiderable evil, or one which they might put
out of consideration in dealing with matters of
finance. The balance was intended to provide for the
payment of the debt due in January ; and, so far as it
was reduced, the Government was obliged to re-
fer to the Bank of England by the issue of
Exchequer Bills in order to meet the demand, thus
they made the country dependent on that great establish-
ment, and deranged the currency by compelling the
bank to limit its issuing for its own protection.
The effect of the abstinence of the late Government
from pressing on the people by the imposition of
new taxes, was to leave an aggregated defi-
ciency for five consecutive years.—(ilear, hear.)
This was an evil which it was impossible for the
present Government to put aside in dealing
with the finances of the country.—(Hear, hear.)
The next point to which the Right Honourable Gentle-
man had adverted was with a view of showing
his opposition to the statement of his Right
Honourable Friend, that taxes on consumption
had not been unproductive to the degree his Right
Hon . Friend asserted. Here he must say, that
the Right Honourable Gentleman must have
been misunderstood altogether, for he bad extremely
misrepresented the argument used on that occasion. He
had supposed that his Right Hon. Friend stated that
the additional 5 per cent. of duties not having raised
the full amount of revenue expected, the 5 per cent.
itself was the cause of the revenue not having in-
creased, But that was not the argument.
His Right Honourable Friend wished to
show that the consumption of the country was so
effected by externalcircumstances at the present moment,
that if he proposed to make the smallest possible,
addition to taxation of this kind, the effort would neces-
sarily be unavailing. His Hon. Friend took the total
amount of the customs for 1840 and 1841,
and showed, by taking the amounts of there-
venue from this source, he showed a failure in the
plan of the Right Honourable Gentleman. He
told the Right Honourable Gentleman that he
had included in his account the amount of the
corn duty, which ought to have been ex-
cluded from the calculation.—(Hear.) Now, he was
afraid that the Right Hon. Gentleman would not
derive much advantage as to the main point at
issue between them, from the observations he had
made upon the statement of his Right Hon. Friend.
The question the House had to decide was this, could
they, with any prospect of raising a revenue, impose on
articles of consumption, taxes to the amount of three
millions ; or if they could do so with any
prospect of raising the revenue they required,
would it be without laying such additional
burdens on the trading, manufacturing, and commercial
interests of the country as would be productive of greater
evils than another system of taxation which was
open to them. He (the Chancellor of .the Ex-
chequer) had had a paper-. drawn up, stating
the produce derived from certain articles of re-
revenue in the year 1840, and he had added to these
several articles what would have been the produce
of the per tentage which the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman had proposed to add to the several duties
He then compared the total results in one ease and
the other, shewing, and without the possibility
of error, what was the proposed increase from the
additional 5 per cent., and what was the actual result.
It was useless to go into details on these subjects. He
would, however, allude to one or two articles. On the arti-
de of coffee, the article produced according to the Right
Hon. Gentleman's estimates of the imposition of the addi-
tional duty of 5 per cent:ought to have been 890,0001.—the
amount actually produced was only 870,000/. That was
taking the period in which the duty had beenreceived for
the whole year. On sugar, the amount that ought to have
been received was 5,117,0001.; the amount actually received
was only 4,310,0001. On wine the amount ought to
have been 1,998,0001.; the amount actually received was
1,806,000/. only. On timber the amount actuallyreceived
had approached nearer to the estimate of the Right Hon.
Gentleman, the amount that ought to have been received
was 1,590/.. the duty actually received was 1,540/.
There was a loss of rsvenue upon a list of 75 articles, none
of which had produced the amount which they ought
to have produced, if the additional duty of
five per cent. had answered the expectations
of the Right Hon. Gentleman: the loss thus occasioned
amounted, in round numbers, to a million.- The same
thing had taken place with regard to the'Excise Duties,
on bricks on malt, and on several other articles.
But, said the Right Hon. Genileman opposite,
the First Lord of the Treasury has stated the question
unfairly, and the Right Hon, Gentleman (Mr. Baring)
went on to show that instead of a deficiency
of 200,000/., he ought to have stated that an
increase of 1,700,000, had taken place. The Right Hon.
Gentleman had taken corn, and said that the duty paid
in 1840 was 1,000,000/., but the duty paid in 1841 was only
500,000/. If the Right Hon. Gentleman would deduct the
one amount from the other, he would find the balance
added to the amounts already stated by his Right Iton.
Friend would amount instead of a million to 700,000/.
Mr. F. T. BARING made an observation across the
table, which was inaudible.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in re-
ply to the Right Hon. Gentleman, said that Isis Right
Hon. Friend, at the head of the Government, had
throughout dealt with the gross account of the Ex-
chequer, and that was the only fair way, for unless they
dealt with it in that way they could not know the effect
which any tax would produce on the consumption of the
country. A great establishment might be necessary for the
collection of certain duties. A large amount might be col-
lected; although great deductions might be made from it
-in its progress to the Exchequer—and if they
dealt merely with the net revenue, they would
not know the • effect produced on the country;
the Government, therefore, lied throughout, dealt
with the gross and not with the net revenue.
Tue Right Honourable Gentleman said when an
increased duty of 4d. per gallon had been proposed
upon spirits in Ireland, that an opposite result
would occur from that which was anticipated. He
(the Chancellor of the Exchequer) could give an
answer to that charge. True it was he did propose to
increase the duty on spirits in Ireland,- because he found
that what he had apprehended in the measure proposed
last year by the Right Honourable Gentleman
opposite did not exist now. He found that spirits in
Ireland had been increasing, notwithstanding the addi-
tional duty imposed upon it ; and he (the Chancellor of
the Exchequer) was quite sure that the duty
thety on
T e.s_pßei
irgiht st
in Ireland could be increased without affecting eith,—
spirit trade, or the morals of the people. -
(tip
Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Baring) th' ) .11 entered into a defence
the measure proposed last cession by the late GovernmentHoef
the Chancellor of the Exchequer) thought that that meas
ure
had been so repeatedly agitated, and the opinions of the Eloise had been already so well 14nown and so generally expressed, rhe
in tbat lieuse and out of it, that it would not be necessaryet
now for the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Baring) to adverttit. Bqt as the Right lion. Gentleman had advert d to the°
measure, !sad as it was made applicable by him to many of t
arguments], he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) felt it
neces-
sary
to follow the Right Hon. Gentleman in the detail he had
ttlywionn
upon corn
Gentlemanco havern ro;
considerablys
ie.ddtehbn the
brought forward. The first proposition of the Right Ho
p
n.
Gentleman nohvewe
rranes
v,metethia
tuaet ifsw. a
st
The
efi
adopted,xi dg hdtiu
inhcerleaatsee dGt
duty on corn then produced 500,000/. ; but if his prpposition of
a fixed duty of eight shill:figs a quarter upon foreigncarn was
tandeoppteodss,esisnisotneadof of
the
Governmentltlat 500, ethtehesruemwoouf 900,1 d nowooo 111. e
oinn
account of the Exchequer. As the Right Hon. Gentle an
held the (Ace of Chancellor of the Excheqver, he, must have
k own that in matters of finance two and two do not make
four. It must follow then that if corn was admitted into this
country as it was now at a duty of 3s. sd. a quarter, that it
bpoweoewul d
nerraioilsefavdpe
übiyeehntahscieonngßs
igrnthwetdoHutloodna.b be rgeenraettal eetime. r
aetxnhtaetnno ,fBsta.hoeda
dqtuuhtaayrt
quarter.
al;
de.
That must be the effect of the measure of the Right lion.
Gentleman as osa,thig alien dse_present year if the duty was
increased to Bs. 'a spi
er. (An on. Member on the Oppo-
sition benches here asked; " hat weald have been the price r")

had What
said
awi
do would
fhabvye
im beeneo theg parni;
dhuetll.euftpoi it o
thethose
nf
wheat they would be starving the people and egg
ue'.lces
the existing distress, and producing all those cone/aqui:ell
which had been made the subject of so much de, 4
or two.
by the Gentlemen on the other side of the Howe for „ebt
days in succession. But his argument would reduce 1e
would
Pon. Gentleman to this alternative—either that he woul
failed to obtain his revenue, from a diminished consenale.,4,:il
or with an additional duty he aggravated the evils which
of corn the present year had produced ; and he Co
uld thus
have caused a further reduction in the consumption of those et
ire import ttiaeatl
titles which, notwithstanding the unfavourable character tg`e
season, they had been enabled to purchase.t, rut/
Right Honourable Gentleman next adverted to ne etc
u
opeonnfiesmuagnatro;b,earnycled ,u on talsiahtesuhahjdechtetrih,ea
eßcuig3ed ht
vain for a budget while he occupied a seat on the Min_le'ticea
benches, he was happy to find that ho had at all o.ents "Low
additional light since he had been removed to a more fae"tuit
ion
situation. He quite agreed with the Right Hon. Geene to be
in thinking that the other side of the house apilear.,„
more favourable for that operation of fishing Ive;„ re.
Treasury benches; for the Right Hon. Geniteman rduty
member, that when he was in great anxiety to raise_
.0_ du,,,
of about 700,6001. upon sugar, it was announced to !le'
wioule
tinctly from the Opposition side of the House, that if,‘,ooo/.
only let the sugar duty take its course, the sun, °,lo'd 0,1,1-n-tight
n-tight be raised without the alteration which he nii°
voured to effect. He stated it not with any view:,
vit'oesly
those who had made the statement ; but it appeared
`list bad
from the facts before them, that is reality the stear, ut'looo.
realised within a few pounds of the sum which tee tained
Gentleman had required. That result, too, had
without affecting the interests of the colonists byintr,
stimulue
foreign commodity, and without giving an addition .l
labour
to the slave trade by discouraging the cultivation of free
at
sugar. &Lytle Right lion. Gentleman, after that Inew, foes
vshiiih seemed to be so useful to him since his retirenser;oh
office, had found out that when he announced that 7t1,u.0 tess
as the duty he expected from his proposed charge, "
to ha"
labouring under some delusion, arid that he intended.
toad of
stated, or at least that he ought to have stated, tnat wag
700,000/. he anticipated a treceipt of 1,000,0001. Bias flight
certainly rather late at the present moment for tn „yea
beenodoving
Honourable Gentleman to correct his error after_„bieet.
or eight months.had elapsed since the discussion of the the
He must confess that if he did not know the °f be
Right Hon. Gentleman in every statement that he iwere
should rather have conceived, if that statetnen.tssroeut
made by another, that a sub3equent knowledge of aab
facts had led to an acknowledgment of his previous eruestioll
But the Right Hon. Gentleman said—to forget that Ly did
and their discussing the sugar duties—that what tot he
was not only to consider the revenue, though nn tiated
thought that the calculations could not have been substaittlej by
if there were any validity in the statement then sulan4a,•
the members of that Government. They (her ' 7.00
present Ministers) then objected that if they were ahteniabout
au inadequate supply of sugar raised by fry e suer
in our own colonies, they would encourage th oes
raised by slave production. In answer to that it le,
stated by the Noble Lord, to calm the fears of the Pose
that slave-labour sugar would only be produced at a tilnen„ply
there was an absolute necessity for its production to se,f
the exigencies of the c runtry ; and the Noble Lord bought
61s. Bd. as the price at which he expected foreign saa-teoeght
be introduced. If the Noble Lord was right when he 000,
it could only be introduced at 61s. Bd., then if the Right areet
Gentleman would look at the price of sugar in the '"e, bad '
during the whole year, he would find that the period n.°"l. of
arrived when 61s. ad. was the price at which the sag ;apt
foreign colonies could have come into the eonsumed°°,,,ssara
country ;he must then be prepared to admit that the wst
was calculated either to ruin the West India producesfouail-e
not calculated to produce that revenue which he nove„Dossi-
in opposition to- his former estimate—that it might "e 'welt 1
bility have produced. But the Right Hon: Gentleman, ap-
into calculations to show that we were under considersehlseriey
prehensions now as to the probable insufficiency of th
of sugar during the ensuing year ; and in order to 511°.' 2r io
he had refeired to statements showing the quantity of ,ng,i the
bond this time last year, the quantity since received, aniteierl
probability of what was yet to come. Considering the°,leiag
that this House expressed as to the expediency of nc"asari
encouragement to sugar the produce of slave' f the
in opposition to that grown by free-labour,
eel'
quantity of that sugar were sufficient for the HA
gumption of the country, he- thought the Rig"' loll'
Gentleman had not been successful as far as bit eca The
terra relatve to the probable deficiency was eoncerne`"otitl
Rignt Honourable Gentleman adverted to the q f lb°
of sugar in bond, and if he (the Chancellor Ist 0
Exchequer) understood him, his statement was, la twothe quantity in bond at present had diminished;
....coed,'
" therefore evident that the consumption of the year had to thethe importation. He thought it would be satisfactory i 0
Right Honourable Gentleman to know that there °ges es)
foundation in his (the Chancellor of the Exchggersbl°
opinion for that statement. The Right lionasepto
Gentleman founded his statement upon the rePrret.
tions of the West India body when the subject was 0040
cussion last year ; that the quantity of sugar in bond anri,ole
to 35,000 tons, but he ascertained the quantity in bend "'resent
don, Liverpool, Bristol, and Glasgow, did not at P bell
exceed 29,000 tons, and looking to the account-5,s an
came to his knowledge from the West butirl
po
the one hand, and 'the East Indies on the other, hee
reason to doubt that the total quantity of sugar for the and,
ing year would amount to between 260 and 280 tarsi;,,any
considering that the largest quantity ever consnree"2o3
year was during the last year, and that the amount vrasee:lo*
tons, the House would perceive that there was an alnl"Treil t°,
ket for that consumption which they all so much d,_eg*Bigh`
to see.—(Hear, hear.) With respect to timber, tne, theta
lion. Gentleman calculated an income of 600,000/. ; hue",„sich
was one consideration with respect to this subject, tu P
the Right Hon. Gentleman never gave a definite ansWer_ ato
was expected by the people et Canada, and it was aere
by the Government of this country, that when a mesas
deeply affecting the interests of the people of Canada, 25 id be
minution of the timber duties was proposed, they the°„,o
allowed time to withdraw from a trade which had "`"tiele
much altered. The Government also at that doer
were in possession of the opinion of Lord Snilsce,
ham, who said that an alteration should not take tee the
within the year, but at some distant period, so as to make the
timber which they had in their possession come under rer
pstpoohaol old
yohs
ueaddlsv(ucleaaeellioledemaeoalfrfetededrareuftanrttooiciemenosnet;ehoi ainitinnnhtdtehwo weihjohoet: est,:henttreii theoperation,
tns
ooeonfßfm,
citegohaahrennt
whether
Canada
Hon. Gentle!' la°ol h
the expressed opinion of the Governor-General
hfiaelatt
hti met
hrtbhebeaerati
ithtneehrt eeeolna,:d:onestitati
to
a..to
wait until a subsequent period. But thelloighetoHf Coni.nace:thilfty:
man referred to the Report of the Committee of 1821, Pa that
ing his measures with respect to timber. The Report statelotia
when the duty on Canadian timber was 10s. that 0u Right
timber should be 555., and having referred to ;his, the hit
Hon. Gentleman asked the House to be guided by the
principles. But what was the principle
ty op
Right Hen. Gentleman? It was to impose a new °et°
Canadian timber which would diminish the consulnPt test
that timber, and also by reducing a small amount "riactiet°
paid upon Baltic timber which would not be sufficien', to
try to
an additional consumption of that timber in this c°al.:os.sli
reduce the comparative difference between the two to'' 45°
having been, on the recommendation of the Committeeesd se
Yet the Right Hon. Gentleman argued that he had act died
the principle of the Report of the Committee of o'l,, ar
leaving the House in a state of uncertainty as to detail.
0004
sawed them that from his plan he would have raised t,
to the revenue. He (the Chancellor of
chequer) did not mean now to go into the deittot" •
that topic, not being furnished with sufficient
oteld
!edge of the mode the Right Honourable Gentleman
1,1 eV
pursue; but he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) w°ll'a had
verve, that doubling the duty on Canadian timber iseene.o
diminished its consumption in this country, while t3s„loem
1-11th of the duty on Baltic timber would have little an! we
its consumption, aid that therefore its Opel ation would ha`',.,stee
to inflict great injury on the produce of Canada, and gbee is
injury on the feelings and affections of its inhabitants, ", prcr
might possibly, though in no way that he could see, hav`e tea•
duced the amount that the Right Hon. Gentleman exPdecie'a.
Having now referred to the topics the Right Hon Gee°, (lb:
introduced in connexion with his budget of last year, ",-,estie-
Chancellor of the Exchequer) would now come to ahtlieett
that was far more important for the consideration of the
can —that was the mode in which the House was prepare
up the great exis ing deficiency, which during five Y sot"'
been permitted to accumulate, and in what manner they past
impose burdens on the people the least oppressive, tn°,ofar
restrictive on the progress of commerce, trade, and °nat.'',
tures, and the most effective for the purposes of the reo vie'
(Hear, hear.) The Right lion. Gentleman said his 0e0moo;
was, that we should still lay duties on ar ides of 0101 labo
but the answer of Government was, that if those duties "buster,
made productive, yet in present circumstances it would lie
fairer, and more conducive to the general i" the
to take those funds which the State requires! 11.°„iudia°,
extensive capital of the country through the Aties-
of its income, than from laying on fresh burdens on 2,1; act tilt°
of consumption —a course which, indeed, would aueli sae:,
higher orders in common with the lower, hut would f,"%j9 5“•-•
heavily on the middle and lower classes of society, tljen
the principle on which the Government, and the Minh ) "
Gentleman (Mr. Baring) were at issue.—(No, tee°
affirmed that it was. The Right Hon. Gentleman t° j
e etar
he held in his hand a list of the taxes repealed since - teere:.
elusion of the war, subsequent to the Customs' duty, 3°
amounted to 7,500,e00/., and lie pointed to them as '°l4l;
from which they might turn to make up.the fickle:Jct.; fer.„l4*
how could they increase the Customs' duties ithout ',n9tcrociPr,
with the consumption of the people, and nu
commerce and manufactures ?—( Hear, hear, hoicelOt
the Excise, the taxes repealed amounted to lea nose t,"
Would the Right Hon. Gentleman have them re'if the ~"
duty on salt ?—( Hear.) He (Mr. Baring) seed ;hoe 5r
come tax was inquisitorial, and yet he recommeede" made °
vise imposts which, if not so inquisitorial as to the „„eune,it-
col'ection, were most vexatious and injurious to the h'""
sa 00
turer. In
.consequence of the reduction of the tides ehe ht
become largely used in manufactures ; and there could Joe'
doubt that the tax would be productive, and it tint'
relieve those who had large money capital from s"c 1,.‘;
the income tax, they would have to pay. —( Hear, hear') be '
evil which it would entail on the manueuiturers ‘e" , este"
greater than any that could be produced by the incornLw
(Hear, hear.) Would he return to the tax upon tallostoue
files?—(Hear)—vvhich would fall upon a class of
__afoid et!e
who page certainly not the rich and wealthy, whe we, won!!
w sufferingasth e s 0 a greatpdtulti
the income tax.—(Hear, hear.) I,' afte'
to
fall upon
ye
misery,
iso
Teo;r:ie. t class Ia s
always
anyf a t
necle'ef"oei ice° ;
He might go through the whole of 'tee Acise duties' There
were all more or less liable o the same objections•
ogubly
necessary to me-- • and daily c°";jureg,
..ey of their manufactures,
to mann a the
more •
xtended use, and while thus essential
or
_3, wit
was
equally necessary to the comfort of the lower d r
Theo therreurth
express view to whose relief it was taken off.
about 00-I°,llt
the beer tax—( Hear, hear)— and that formed b "*'en
up
of the amount of those Excise duties held by
thudh b'eut
r)—a.duty on an article indisp!noitite
Hon. Gentleman as a model for their imitatoio_%
tune, Om
his (the Chancellor of the Exchequer'e) go d
arana to
principle on which the Government repealed _ ,em.er ,
ten years since, to repeal that duty—( et :as the sh
of
more bele
somemakinghovers greaterg e,
anduse fi ial t° t -e-
-ld 'V"'
restore to the lower orders of society the when'.
House wou
health and strength He believed that the
pathise with him to his unwillingness to re-imposeeuroeste,,,".",,,
(Cheers.) There were other duties he might.'" catator,u_.
oneof athebetmteorst abnilne
ih.chesrleioluveh.ll.enfohte gdotatihesrobugrohugthhte
furisard .Ithefilioentit ;g lit Ho
n•
the -°(',ecr
from „,
vigour and activity, would perhaps produce
ews of the
red, set"' the
he Gentleman
argued inin favour of opposition
these duties, viGovernment'l
and poorer classes the resources they rewired,
instead ter
Government, that the period had arrived when,
,_ greaur,
posing new burdens, we ought to endeavour to I
Chancellor of the Exchequer) maintained, on
wealth and It
that could only be effected by taxing the
e.crs.) 0
relaxation to commerce and encouragement
perity of the country.—(Hear, hear, and recour9a
the lion. Gentleman thinks we might
.na. to t"
objection _et pfl
to the assessed taxes. Now, what were the o _
and the house tax, iv reference to thew e.,,,tiene
window tax a
the ote to
the classes they were anxious to relieve ? Were
the subject
to their effect on the wealthy, or were they not ,
complaint from all the middle orders of society, l“).;:velbeg‘
gaged in the occupations of industry and trade, whose n`
behalf °
t° gindustry, a