The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-01 00:00:00

of the income-tax, he did so upon three
distinct grounds. The first was the impos-
sibility of any reduction in the army—the second
the necessity for an increase in the navy—and the third
the necessity for making great financial experiments. It
was upon these distinct grounds that the Right lion.
Baronet brought forward the continuance of the income-
tax ; and he believed that, at the time, the explanation
gave general satisfaction. But the Hon. Member must
not forget that it was a matter of importance that the
country should be protected by good and seaworthy ves-
sels, whose capabilities could not be ascertained without
some practical experience. To acquire this experience,
it was necessary that an experimental squadron should
be established, and this conld not be done without in-
curl ing great expense. It was only by experimental
squadrons they could test the capabilities of a ship or
a steamer, and the Honourable Member had heard
that the Government intended to resort to this expen-
sive source of gaining maritime information. But what
was the state of our commercial relations? Why, it had
been stated that in 1841 there had been a positive in-
crease of 35,000 men for commercial purposes. On the
coast of Africa an increase had been made in the naval
force, with the view to the protection of commerce, and
the suppression of the slave-trade. In China there had
been an increase of 100,000, and five vessels, for the pur-
pose of maintaining order in the merchant service, and
the protection of the British commerce in that quarter
of the globe. It was to be remembered that piracies in
those seas were not occasional and unexpected, or occur-
ring at distant intervals, but were systematically carried
on by the military chiefs upon the coast of Borneo and
the adjacent Islands, as a part of their state policy. The
lion. Member, therefore, could hardly object to any ad-
ditional increase being made in our t aval force, for the
advancement or protection of the commercial interests
of this country in that quarter of the globe.
The commerce of the country was daily extending, and
it must entail upon the public a corresponding extension
of the expenditure. The lion. Member had further
asked whether in this time of profound peace the Go-
vernment proposed to build line-of battle ships and in-
crease the dockyards, because other countries were use-
lessly incurring similar expenses ? Now, he (Mr. S.
Herbert) thought that nothing could be more impolitic
than to go on continually changing our own establish-
ments in accordance with the changes adopted by
other countries.—(Hear, hear.) However, he would say,
look to the different position of this country and of the
others referred to. Those countries had not the same
amount of colonies that we had, and they would con-
centrate all their naval force within their own ports.—
(Hear, hear.) But the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Hume)
said he agreed with the Gallant Officer opposite that
there was no occasion to build more ships at present,
but that they should wait until war came, when, if they
had need, they could build fifty ships in one year. The
Hon. Gentleman had also said that they could man 120
new ships in a year.
An HON. MEMBER—It has been done.
Mr. S. HERBERT—But they should remember that
an enemy would not put off hostilities until this country
was prepared with its full naval force.—(Hear, hoar.)
And the House should look to what was the state of facts
at the present moment. The Government could not at
present, upon an emergency, immediately obtain an
additional stock of timber, sufficient to build five ships in
one year.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir C. NAPIER—Oh, it would come in.—(Hear.)
Mr. S. HERBERT—But while we waited for the
timber to build, our coasts might be blockaded.—
(Cheers.) Formerly, when we were in an unprepared
tate, it cost the country a vast deal to build vessels in
a hurry, which were of little or no use. We were
obliged to build ships upon the spurt of the moment.
In the first place, the Government was swindled by
the contractors to a great extent ; and beside that, the
ships when built were worth nothing, or next to nothing.
He thought, therefore, on all considerations, that it
would be impolitic to put off preparation to the last mo-
ment ; and, for his part, he would be sorry to see the
Government left to have recourse to the commercial
dock-yards upon an emergency.—(hear.) At the same
time he must say that, although he saw other countries
at this moment going to a great, and as he thought
wasteful, expense for the enlargement of their dockyards,
he should be very sorry to see this country following the
example.—(Hear, hear.) Yet, looking to the actual
state of the navy—seeing that, although we had a large
number of ships, many of them were of great age.
Sir C. NAPIER—WeII, break them up.—(Hear, and
a laugh.)
Mr. S. HERBERT—Many of them must before long
come to be broken up. It was necessary to increase, at
Portsmouth and Plymouth, the means of repairing and
building ships of war, and to extend the means also at
Pembroke.—(Hear, hear.) He had had opportunities of
comparing the works going on at those ports with those
of another country, which had been referred to ; and he
could say that they would not cost one-third of the
expense.—(Hear.) Although the Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
Hume) seemed to forget the explanation given on the
subject of these estimates by his Right Hon. Friend the
First Lord of the Treasury, the country seemed not to
forget, but to be satisfied with that explanation. The
increase of the expenditure was required for extended
operations to suppress the slave trade, and to afford in-
creased protection to our continually increasing
commerce.

Mr. HUME wished to state that he had not heard any
explanation from the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of
the Government, on the contrary, he had been in expec-
tation of the explanation up to the present moment.—
(Hear, hear, and a laugh.) The Right Hon. Baronet
had made a statement when he brought forward the sub.
ject of the income-tax that we ought always to be pre.
pared for war. But this was the sort of excuse for keep.
ing up a war establishment to which he had always ob.
jected. But the preparations now proposed looked as i
we expected soon another Waterloo, or as if a hundred
hostile pennants were flying in the; Channel. With re-
spect to the suppression of the slave trade, the attempt
to effect that by means of a naval force upon the
coast of Africa had completely failed. In fact, accord-
ing to the opinion of the late Sir F. Buxton, the
employment of a naval force for that purpose had done
more harm than good—had actually aggravated the evil.
(Hear.) He (Mr. H.) had always endeavoured to show
the country the uselessness of this waste of money, and
to tell the public that if they wished to have a war
establishment, they must expect to pay for it.—(Hear.)
Lord INGESTRIE regretted that the statement
of his Honourable Friend the Secretary at War
had not been satisfactory to the Honourable Gen-
tleman (Mr. Hume), for to him it had been perfectly
satisfactory.—(Hear, hear.) lie had not been present
when his Hon. Friend the Secretary to the Admiralty
brought forward the first vote, but he was sure that the
statement of his Hon. Friend would be looked
upon with great satisfaction by the whole of the
naval service.—(Hear.) He believed that the navy was,
in every department, in a more efficient state than when
gentlemen opposite were in office. —(Conservative
cheers.) The " trial experiments " instituted by the
present Admiralty had been conducted with perfect
fairness, and promised to lead to important improve.
ments in the science of ship-building. He greatly re-
gretted that the schools of naval architecture, recom-
mended in 1806, had not been upheld—(" Hear, hear,"
from Mr. Hume)—and he thought that the gentlemen
who were engaged to superintend those schools had been
hardly dealt with. He hoped that justice would yet be
done to those gentlemen, amongst whom he would par-
ticularly, but not individually, mention Mr. Clewin, Mr.
Lloyd, Mr. Morgan, and others (whose names we did
not catch). At the same time, he complained of the
favour which had been shown to Captain Symonds,
whose system he regretted to designate as most rotten
and fallacious. Hitherto we had been groping in the dark,
in naval architecture ; and the consequence was that, in
the beginning of the last American war, we suffered
much in reputation, and would have suffered more, if it
had not been for the gallantry of our sailors.—(Hear.)
The fact, at this moment, was, that all our best ships
were built upon the model of those that had been taken
from the enemy.—(Hear.) He believed that the system
of building ships that had been adopted was most falla-
cious. He'considered that the surveyors of the navy
had acted upon the most erroneous principles, and that
the worst results hail attended their exertions.
Mr. W. WILLIAMS objected to the vote. lie be-
lieved that the grossest praotioes had taken place,
and he thought ho sheuld be able to prove that, if
they would only grant him a Commmittee.—(Hear,)
He entirely objected to the vote for the increase of the
estimates of this year over the year 1835. The esti-
mates of that year were 4,200,0001., those of the present
year amounted to 6,900,000/. For keeping ten sail of
the line the expenditure was 200,0001. more than in 1841,
when there wore 26 sail of the line at sea. These were
circumstances which required explanation. The Right
lion. Gentleman said that they were obliged to suppress
piracy ; surely piracy had been carried on formerly as
well as at present. He (SirJ.Graham) also ailuded to their
three establishments in China, where the expenditure
could not be very large. The increase of the navy was
attended with an increase in the estimates of the ord-
nance. In 1835 the expenditure in the navy, army, and
ordnance department was 900,0001. less than the vote
of this year. He (Mr. Williams) should like to know
from some Member of her Majesty's Government why
they should require such an increase in the estimates in
these three establishments compared with those of the
year 1835. It was more than the whole of the
expenditure of the army and navy of the United States,
the only place they had to fear—their only difficulty
was in that point. There was not one year
since the peace, when such large supplies were voted for
these services. Take the years 1841 and 1842, when
there was not only a war in China, but a large fleet in
the Mediterranean, and when there was an actual war
on the coast of Syria, when the fortress of Acre was
taken—in each of these years the expenditure was
340,0001. less than in the present year. After alluding
to the immense increase in the expenditure in the service
in this year over the year 1818, so soon after the peace,
the Hon. Gentleman sail he could not help calling it ex-
cessively extravagant.
Sir C. NAPIER observed that he did not think that
the Gallant Officer on the opposite side (Sir G. Cock-
burn) acted fairly or justly towards him, for ho was not
aware that he (Sir C. Napier) imputed greater mischief
to the present Board of Admiralty than he did to the
last. The Gallant Admiral made use of observations
which were quite uncalled for ; he intimated that there
were twenty naval officers in the command of steam-
boats who could support his statements. They ought to
have sent for these officers and brought them before the
Admiralty for examination. He did not think it fair
for the Gallant Officer to say that he (Sir C. Nader) was
damning everybody but hi.lnself• hgwever did not
say Single word about the ships w ich he (Sir Charles
Napier) said were in the docks. The Gallant Admiral
' said that he did not pull those vessels to pieces i but he
(Sir C. Napier) wanted to prevent them from being
pilled to pieces in future. ir otie Admiralty allows it
aow, why not another do SO 111 future? When a Minis-
ter came tato power, 'he generally selected those who
were in Parliament hunting for place, and who may be
the greatest blockheads in the world, to conduct the
affairs of the navy, instead of those who were well versed