The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-15 00:00:00

Was that principle consistent with what they had done in
other cases ?—( Hear.) They had introduced also another
principle into the grant by taking the Irish Catholic Church
into connexion with the State, without reserving to the State
any controul over the new establishment.—( Hear. ) Was that
the principle on which they had proceeded in other matters?—
(Cheers.) It was not—and he stood there as an example of
the opposite principle.—(Hear, hear.) When he came to
the House with petitions and claims of right, from the Presby-
terian people of Scotland, setting forth the privileges to which
they considered themselves entitled by ancient statutes, and by
the articles of union—when he claimed that they should have
in the Scotch Church the management of their own spiritual
welfare and should not be interfered with by the State—he was
told by Gentlemen who supported the measure now, that
the claim was monstrous and inconsistent to have a Church in
connexion with the State, over which the State should have
no control. That was the case with the Scotch Church ; and
four hundred of her most active ministers, and nearly a million
of her most faithful people were driven from her pale. —( Hear.
hear.) flow then could Gentlemen opposite come forward
now to ask him, a member of the Free Church of Scotland, to
support them, on public grounds, in a measure for placing the
Roman Catholics in connexion with the State in respect to en-
dowment, not under the control of the State ?--( Cheers.) If
they were right in this case, how unjust had they been in the
case of the Scotch Church?—( Hear ) if they were right in
that case, how could they turn round now, and take the oppo-
site course ?—( Hear, hear.) He understood the course
of the Government as little as he understood the advice
of the Right Honourable Baronet opposite to Irish landlords—
advice, however, in which he (Mr Fox Maule) concurred—to
give sites for the building of houses of worship. and of schools,
and to assist their tenantry in the education of their clergy?
Was it the intention of the Right Honourable Baronet to ad-
vise a member of his own Cabinet, sitting in the other house,
to act in the same spirit towards his poor tenaritry in Scotland ?
—,Cheers.) Was it the intention of the Right Honourable
Baronet to remonstrate with that Member of his own Govern-
ment for refusing his poor tenants a site for building a place of
meeting, for which they were willing to pay, or to allow them
even to assemble on a corner of the old moor—so that they
were compelled to inert for prayer upon the Sabbath at the
place where three r ads met ?—( Hear, hear, hear.) The name
was familiar to the Right Honourable Baronet.—( Hear, hear. )
But it was said that the Parliament ought to take compassion
upon Irish roverty. He did not know that. They were told
that there were eight millions of Roman Catholics in
Ireland ; and he did not think that they ought to be behind
band with the seten or eieht hundred thousand Presbyterians
of the Free Church of Scotland, who were thrown upon their
own resources, and in the last two years had erec:ed six hun-
dred chapels, and had raised a sum of hOO.OOO/. for various
ecclesiastical purposes.—( Hear, hear.) No one would say
that the members of the Free Church were of the richer class
in Scotland, on the contrary they were of the poorer. Now
he believed that no people held their religion more dear than
the Catholics of Ireland, and he would say to them, „instead
of coming here for this endowment, you should follow the ex-
ample of the Scotch Presbyterians, and we will assist you, by
repealing still further the Mortmain Act—and then you will be
far more respected in this country than by coming here for an
endowment."—( Hear, hear.) But they had heard a very
extraordinary statement as to the condition of the Col-
lege, which they were told was so wretched as to
call for legislative relief. But, last year. a countryman of his
went over to Maynooth, and visited the College ; and he has
published his opinion of its condition and arrangements—ln.
meant Mr. James Grant. That gentleman de-criOed the situa-
tion of the place and its nature, and then went on to describe the
interior. He said that all the arrangments were excellent, and
well adapted to the purposes of such an institution. The young
men were well fed, comfortably lodged, and cleanly clad.
Mr. SHEIL—Oh ! that was a Scotchman's opinion.—
(Immense laughter.)
Mr. F. MAULE—It was the opinion of a Scotchrnan who
was very hospitably received, and had every opportunity of
jedging of what he described.—( Hear, hear.) Mr. Grant
did not write fike one who was actuated by a hostile spirit.—
But from his description of the condition of the student, it
seemed questionable that the statements the House had re-
ceived the other night were not in some degree overcharged.—
( Hear, hear.) With regard to the conciliation of this measure,
he world say, that only two years ago, the Right Hon.
Baronet told the House that conciliation had reached its ut-
most limits towards Ireland.—(Cheers.) This was one of
the concessions which always came from the Right Hon.
Baronet's party—and which always came too late.— ( Cheers )
Mr. O'Connell denied the conciliation, and thanked them
for no more than the posses-ion.—( Hear, hear.) He said
that he would go on with agitation until he got all that
he wanted.—( Hear.) If they wished to conciliate, they
ought to have done so in some way that would not excite the
religious feelings of the people of this country.—( Hear.)
For his part he was disposed to do justice to Ireland in the
fullest sense of the word. But he would ask, was there no op-
portunity of doing so in matters in which the people of Eng
land might have looked on as impartial judges in their poli-
tical character?—(Cheers. ) Was there no franchise in which
concession to Ireland would create no religious rancour in
Eneland ?—( Cheers.) What became of the zeal of the Right
Hon. Baronet, when he passed over the franchise, which
they might have proposed to equalise, and in which he, for one,
would assist them with a liberal hand ?—( Cheers. ) There
were other questions on which they could have laid their
hands without violation to any religiou's feeling.—(Hear,
hear.) He thought the Right Hon. Baronet could not allow
this debate to close without stating explicitly whether the
measure was intended as a prelude to the endowment of the
Catholic clergy as a body.— ( Cheers.) He could not under-
stand how, after their conduct on the question of the Church
of Scotland, they could propose to endow the Church of a
different religion in a neighbouring country, and exclude the
interference of the State. That would be an act of injustice
to the whole hotly of the Dissenters in this country. For his
part, he had always opposed the principle, and although he
was a member of the Church of Scotland, and was a friend to
Church extension, when Dr. Chalmers, ten years ago (in
1835), was making great efforts for that object, he at
that time opposed a public grant, on the grounds of his present
opposition to the measure before the Home—( Hear, and
cheers) and whether from such an accidental union
as that of the Right Hon. Member for Oxford, or from any
other motive, he could succeed in stopping this Bill, he knew
not. But this he knew, that the proposal would not allay agi-
tation in Ireland, whilst it had raised, up an agitation in Eng-
land to feelings of bitterness which it would take no small
time to allay.—(Cheers. )
A great number of Members rose at once to speak, amidst
great laughter, and it took the Speaker some seconds to decide
that his eye had first been caught by
Lord CASTLEREAGH, who said that as he was desirous
of addressing the House upon this question, he was glad to rise
after his Hon. Friend the Member for Perth, to whom he was
extremely sorry he should be opposed; although he must also
say that he was not so opposed to his Hon. Friend in any spirit
of party.—( Hear, hear.) His Hon. Friend had alluded to a
petition which had been presented in favour of the Bill from a
body of Presbyterians in his (Lord Castlereagh's) county, and
he ( Lord Castlereagh) was glad to have an opportunity of bear-
ing testimony to their high religious character and liberality.
With reference to the question, the House or the country
had no right to declaim for being taken by surprise. He (Lord
Castlereagh) and his friends were prepared for some great
measure being proposed for Ireland, and it was his astonish-
ment to find that this, the first one, was so exceedingly trifling.
They had discussed his grant for fifty years. For fifty years
it had been the unceasing cause of squabble and noise, and they
had come down to the House with various feelings, but the
great feeling that prevailed was, that the Irish people never
thanked them for their parsimony ; they gave them 9.0001 ,
but they gave it to them gradually, and they did net thank
them. He was glad that the first thing done in this rnea• ure
was the setting at rest the question of whether the grant was
to be continued or Lot. When that was the question, he
voted against the grant, but not against his Catholic fellow
countrymen, fcr Heaven knew that the first time he spoke
in that House, he addressed it in the cause of his
Roman Catholic fellow countrymen. He did not see what harm
the emancipation had done them, or how it led to agitation.
He was not one of those who believed that repeal was a re-
ligious question. Whether they had already reaped the fruits
of that measure or not—and he was of opinion that they had—
they would yet know that the boon they had given to the Irish
could not be forgotten, and, sooner or later, they would reap
sufficient advantage. The people of England were peculiarly
jealous upon the subject of what he might call the "No Popery"
cty. The petitions presented to Parliament would show the
feeling of the people; but he thought it was the duty of the
Government, under such circumstances, to temper the feeling,
and to lay a broad foundation of justice, whereon to build a
superstructure of good government.—( Chee-s. ) They should
not yield to the pressure without; if they did, they would have
yielded long ago to the Anti-Corn-law League; nor would
they have resisted the repeal agitation, which, he was sorry
his fellow-countrymen paid too much attention to. It was the
duty of the Minister to temper such a feeling without laying
aside his own intention, and a good intention of carrying out
a beneficial measure. Honourable Members were pursuing a
consistent course in opposing everything like concession to the
Roman Catholics—they were afraid of Popery. He (Lord
Castlereagh) thought that the experience of twenty years, and
the information received from those who would bring forward
their conscientious opinions in a Court of Justice, would have
removed such prejudices.--(Hear.) He and his colleague
received a requisition, signed by several young gentlemen of
property in the county of Down, which he had the honour to
represent. •It was signed by many of his earliest and best
friends, who entreated himself and his colleague to give oppo-
sition to the Bill of the Hon. Baronet. A letter from a friend
of his characterised the measure as one calculated to bring
down national judgments upon them. He, however, had a
duty to perform, irrespective of his constituents, and if they
thought he acted wrong they could visit him with the conse-
quences of their displeasure. He deeply regretted this agita-
tion which had sprung up in England, at the head of which
were many great names. He saw Exeter Hall again in the
throes of childbirth—(Laughter) —and he saw placards and
processions parading the streets because they were going to
give a few pounds, as his Hon. Friend had said; but ho
would say a sufficiently increased grant to the institution of
Maynooth. He was not going to enter into a theolo-
gical discussion concerning the doctrines that were taught at
Maynooth. He was not a Guy Fawkes or a Peter Dens ;
but he woulersay that this grant was liberally proposed by the
Right Hon. Baronet, who was not slightly abused or criticised
in that House for the measure which he had the manliness to
bring forward. When he first saw the flirtation between the
Hon. Member for Oxford, the representative of the chivalry of
his party and the beauty of Young England, he did not think
that such an alliance would produce fruit—he was of opinion
that it would be a spawn.—( Laughter.) He regretted to hear
the caustic and sarcastic remarks of the Hon. Member fur Shrews-
bury, who he was sorry was not now in his place. Ile re-
gretted to perceive that his talents were used on the wrong
side; he wished that he was raising his banner cry for, instead
of against, them. In contradiction to the Hon. Gentleman he
should say that they owed Catholic Emancipation to the Hon.
Baronet at the head of her Majesty's Government, and to his
coadjutor in the Howse of Lords. He regretted to hear the im-
putations which were east on the Right Hon. Baronet, and he
could not help thinking that there was some remembrance,
some deep sorrow hovering over the mind of the Hon.
Gentleman, when he looked aout and did not see the Member
for Dublin in his place. It had been said by the Hon. Member for
Shrewsbury that he should not have opposed this grant if it was
brought in by the Members opposite. There was
always an opinion, whether right or wrong, that Lord
Melbourne's Government were more or less under the
dictation er subservient to Mr. O'Connell. He (Lord
Castlereagh) did not think that the Chapels' Dissenters Bill
would have been carried but for Mr. O'Connell —( Hear,
hear.) He (Mr. D'lsraeli) said that he looked with distrust
at any measure coming from the Government, as they were not
the people to give it, and he for one should oppose it. He
could not, therefore wonder at his (Lord Castlereagh's) telling
him that be should' be rather jealous of any measure coming
from the other side of the House, for he should not believe
that it was through a spirit of conciliation or concession that
it would be introduced, but under the dictation of Mr.
O'Connell and his party. He was sorry for detaining the
House so long, but he thought it necessary, as an Irish Mem-
ber, to address the House in approval of the measure, and he
hoped and trusted that the Right Hon. Gentleman would go on
in the career which he had adopted—( Hear, hear)—and if by
the dictation of any party he should be left in a minority, he
felt convinced that he could assure them that there would be
found many by his side who would cheer him and share his fall ;
and who would suppott his measures whether he was on this side
of the House or the other. He would conclude by referring
to a sentence in a pamphlet, written by a gentleman in that
House, which contained much better language than he could
express, and which said that it would be very sanguine to ex-
pect that Ireland should be incorporated in feeling or in laws