Star.
London, England, 1808-01-22 00:00:00

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FRIDAY;..JANUAR:Y. es. tsos.

wish for another peace of Amiens' Did: we wish to
see the colours of the French men of war going 4
and ours consequently coming down ? He triated;
no Noble Lord who heard him, no person in the
country,would be found to express a wish.fur a peace
of that description. Having thus animadverted,
though in a very inadequate manner, upon the prin.'
cipal topics• in the speech, he would. trespass no louner
on. their Lordship's indulgence, but conclude with
moving an Address• of Thanks to his Majesty, in
which he hoped for their unanimous concurrence.
The Address having been read by the LORD
CHANCELLOR, and afterwards by the Clerk,
Lord KENYON seconded the address. He was
induced, he said, to rise upon this occasion, from the
satisfaction which he had in observing, that the con-
duct of Ministers had corresponded throughout with
that laudable energy and resolution which had in•
duced them to enter upon office at a juncture of pecu-
liar danger and delicacy. He highly approved of the
seizure of the Danish fitet, and of the firmness with

one moment that any well groundecl- apprehensions
'were to be entertained from the addition of sixteen sail:i
of the line to the maritime strength of the enemy.
The ships were much inferior to British, French,
Spanish ; but it was not ships, but men, that this
country wanted. If our dangers were not increased•
by the attack upon Copenhagen, those of our Ally
certainly were. Did Ministers never contemplate
the posAllity of that measure being retorted tipoq
Powers for. which they must feel interested ? Had
they no apprehension that Russia, France, and Den-
trtark, mighttbe brought to coalesce against Sweden ?-
Havingbriefly touched upen.them inThe commence-
ment of his speech, he would not lay any further
stress won the contradictory statements respecting
the measures which were adopted in consequence of
the result of the negotiations of Tilsit. He would
have been MOM disposed to approve what they had
done in the Baltic, if they had acted consistently. If,
they had attacked Cronstadt, taken possession of the
Russian navy, and by such an, enterprise made us
the undisputed masters of that sea, such an act
•would- have been consistent with the magnanimity
of justice, and it was much more pra.ctivable than
might be conceived. All the wars, from the ac-
.
cession of Ring William to the present hour, in
which this country was engaged, were founded
upon the principles of upholding the leaw of Na-
tions; and this was particularly the case with respect
to the war which commenced in 1799, and which has
continued with little interruption ever since. From
that great principle, he could admit no deviation. He
would never subscribe to that monstrous policy, by
which we could be induced, because we apprehended
danger from a gigantic Power, to commit an act of
injustice, and follow the measures to the success of
which that Power looked for universal domination.—

which they resisted the attempt of Russia to impose
peace upon us in the character of a mediator, after
she had evinced a decided partiality for the common
enema.. He regretted the failure of the embassy to
Turkey ; but considered the present Ministers as not
responsible for that event, though he did not mean to
arraign.the policy of their predecessors, who had in-
volved us in hostilities with that power. He depre-
cated any endeavour to -excite a premature cry of
peace, being convinced that Ministers vronid not
omit any opportunity which should offer itself of at-
taining that invaluable blessing, when it couldbe pro-
cured in consistency with the safety and honour of the

country.
The Duke of NORFOLK expressed his approba-
tion of the manner in which the debate had been

opened. The observations of the Noble Earl were
calculated to conciliate the House ; and on all the

There was one part of the Address, however, from
which he could not withhold his unqualified approba-
tion, He could not speak in terms of adequate ap-
plause of the emigration of the Court of Lisbon. It
was a measure which reflected immortal honour upon
the Sovereign of that country, and which promised the
greatest advantage to England, not immediately in-
deed; but ultimately. That measure, in every view
which he had been able to take of it, opened the most
cheering prospect to this nation. With respect to the
policy observed towards America, he would not now
speak. The proper time for that would be when the
Orders in Council came under discussion ; but he could
not refrain from expressing a.hope that Government
had not adopted principles more than commensurate
to the necessity of the case. He approved of the re-
paratipn which had been made for the rencontre with
an Americ4n ship of war, as well as the Prolamation
by which it was followed. The doctrine of visiting
national ships was not maintainable. He would not
take up any snore of their Lordships' time ; but he
could not sit down without expressing his earnest hope
that no opportunity would be neglected to restore to
this country the blessings of peace. He would say,
have peace, if you can have it with honour. For the
reasons he had stated, he would support the motion
made by the Noble Duke.
The Earl of ABERDEEN approved of the jus-
tice and policy of seizing the Danish fleet. That
Coverament, upon a former occasion, assigned as a
reason for joining in the cenfederacy against this
ffi
country, that it was not in 4 state to resist e powers
which required it. After such a declaration, he was
surprised how any 4oble Lord could entertain an
idea that Denmark could refuse to render her navy
applicable to the purposes of France, which had an
immense army collected on the frontiers of the most
valuable part of her dominions. With respect to the
policy of the orders of Council, he professed himself
incompetent to give any decided opinion at present ;
but it struck him that the measures would not ad-
mit of a partial application. The principles of our
maritime rights must be universally asserted, er not
at all.
Lord GRENVILLE observed, that he should ill
discharge his duty, if he did not offer himself to their
Lordships ontpheeeetresent occasion. There was one
Speech point of the upon which no difference of opi-
nion could prevail. This, as it was said, was indeed
an important conuncture of affairs—we were now in
the very crisis of, our fate. • Upon the conduct of the
British Parliament, it would depend whether the Bri-
tish empire should exist—whether the British Consti-
tution, the foundation of our prosperity, our great-
ness, and our glory, should endure--or whether both
should together be overwhelmed and overthrown.—
: He could say, with the Noble Viscount who spoke
before him, that he came down to the House with an
ardent desire to concur in the Address, and to join
with his Majesty in upholding the rights and asserting
the honour of his people. He slid trope, that for one
day the little passions would have been set at rest,
and that nothing would be proposed which had the
least tendency to disturb that unanimity which, at
the opening of a session, it was always desirable
should prevail, and which was peculiarly necessary
at the present moment. He fully joined in the opi-
nion urged so often by a great Statesman (Mr Fox),
whose death was a great public loss, with that force
peculiar to him, that nothing should be more avoided'
by Ministers at the commencement of a Session,
than any attempt to entrap. Parliament, either by af,
Spee4h from the Throne, or an Address in answer to
it,
into an Approbation of their measures. lkhen, ha',
would ask, had paoiamentleen ever reqpiredtogive'l
their approbation to measures respecting which;they
had no .docurnsmts before them ? As to whet hap-i
pened at Copenhagen,.he bad hitherto avoided giving
wiopinion upon 4,;because it •was
_.not coasistent
th
.ideas pf jKstme.to decide
.nkon a cause ,with;
out sufkeientsprzofs. When .that attac* tookpla.ce,
he was inelined tc) give GfPfc'tnMellt iPtaise foe
upon .the.plasuMpttell .that thAy.scuil own memo;
yrizas ssi the hostng intMions
,that iprat pi lee would.mt tciAVM* mks'
.before )fit-w.iyhest
4hat ateasuteisl2944l.bo 440.044-.ltpap jaincißlis
jufttcs Awl incasily. ostilmt She fottliggs :t Nit

points of the Speech, except one, he fully concurred
with himt Papers were promised to be laid before
Parliament on several points ; but respecting that
momentous event, the attack upon Copenhagen, he
could not find in the Speech that the smallest hope
bras held out of any information being submitted to
Parliament. Without such information, he could
not give his unqualified concurrence to that measure.
He trusted Ministers would be able to lay proofs be-
fore their Lordships, that the Court of Denmark en.
tertained those designs which they had attributed to
it. Until those proofs were brought forward, he must
withhold his approbation of the attack upon Copen.
hagen. It was, therefore, his intention to move an
amendment to the Address proposed by the Noble
Earl, and for that purpose he would move, that
that part of it which gives unqualified approbation
to what had been done at Cenhagen should be
omitted. If that motion dbe agreed to, he
would afterwards move to introduce other words in
the place of the rejected paragraph.
Lord SIDMOUTH began with expressing his re-
gret that the Speech had not been so constructed as
to ensure the unanimity of all parties. He lamented
that Ministers did not abstain from introducing topics
upon which a difference of opinion was likely to pre-
vail. He fully agreed with the Noble Baron, who
seconded the motion, that it was desirable in the
highest degree, that all minor contests should be ab-
sorbed in the great contest in which we were engaged.
He lamented exceedingly, that he found it impossible
to concur in the expressions of approbation which
were unfortunately introduced in the Address ' • but
he could not, consistently with his duty to his Sove-
reign, or his respect for his own character, concur in
approving what had taken place at Copenhagen,
without further information. On that momentous
measure he trusted Ministers would yet be able to
lay such documents before the House as would
justify an enterprise deeply involving the honour and
character of the nation. The Noble Earl had set
out with stating, that Denmark, for the last seven
years, had indicated an hostile disposition towards
this country. In what were these indications saroxi.
fested ? Were they indicated in the conduct of that
power when the British fleet entered the Baltic ? At
that time the Danish army was in Holstein, prepared
to resist the French, or any other power who should
attempt to violate their neutrality. Was the Danish
navy prepared eitjier to make or repel an attack ? He
would be told, that the quantity of naval stores col-.
leeted in the arsenal of Copenhagen was a proof of
the hostile intentions of that Court. These, it was
said, were collected on account of France, and for
French purposes. But these could not have been the:
motives of the expedition to the Baltic. When did
this perfect understanding between Denmark and
France take
_place ? Was it before or after the pekoe
of Tilsit ? The Definitive Treaty between France and
Russia was signed on the Bth July, and Lord Gambier
entered the Baltic on the Sd of August. This circum-
stance was sufficient to prove that Ministers did not
act upon any information they had obtained of the se-'
cret engagements entered into between France and
Russia, and in which they would have it to be under-
stood Denmark concurred. To justify that measure,
therefore, the attack upon Copenhagen, it ought to
have been proved that the danger was a danger of
great magnitude, and such as could not be warded off.
by any other means ; for certainly the calamity in-
flicted was not proportioned to the calamity appre-
hended. He hoped, for the honour of the nation, it,
would be made evident that the datlger vmsgreat. He
could not give his assent to the opinion;, that if Hol--
stein were occupied by the Fiench, Zealand would:
be at their mercy.' Nothing but such a frostas
would render the Great Belt_pssable 'b.y an.atray;
could have endangered the safety of that:island; lie:
had conversed with many naval and military persons
of great experience, and they:frilly acquiesced in thisi,
opinion. His Lordship used many other arguments'
to prove the impracticability of the French getting to
Zealand, and thereby obtaining possession,of theba..;
nish fleet. But supposing they had, .he would norjo:,
derogate from the valour, the activity, and .the
alte'S character of the 13riti5h navy, as.toAdusitlar

-IZia-A5.411!:

kg RIP • SLXF-PE,IcR

. .
Lordships should not enter into the consideration.ol:
!a question involving the honour and character of Ow.
:count/.. It is said the eyei of Europe are uoon-dis-
They are inyleed. .4urepz was anxious to jec.-Olf
'the 13ritish Plirlitiment would considef tl*: pitkeed
ings in the Baltic. The iinpression at pii*enT sthitik.
upon. the Continent was, he believedi eitremettnor
'favourable to the character of England: ititistegiS;
B
of proofs to decide this important quest-303)c silk:
was the case ?• We were called upon, not to deliberate:
and•decide, but to give an unqualifterl approbation to
what, he was sorry to say, vas considered in ertirf
part of the Continent as a foul and an airsitious'act:
We were called:upon to sanction a mein* Which vlfr
were not permitted to discuss. His Lordship torts 77
plained that the declaration had not been,- laidbefora
Parliament, in which, to his utter astonishment, he
found statements directly contradictory to the speech.
When that declaration reached him, at a consider-
able distance from the capital, the impression upon
his mind was, that some :ezier articles had been Con-
cluded at Tilsit between France and Russia, to which
Denmark was privy, and that they were hostile to this
country. But where were those secret articles ? Had
the House heard any thing of them.this night ?, The
speech was wholly silent on the subject. 'Whatever
we had heard of in other documents, ' there was no
mention of secret arrangements, or positive informa-
tion, in the speech delivered from the throne; nothing
farther than information to his Majesty.of the ene-
my's designs. Of them nobody could doubt ' • nor
of his intention to combine against us all the force
that his success on the Continent could supply him
with. As to that sort of secret information, he might
observe on what would be the case. of information
given by some secret emissaries of France in this
country to our enemy, on which France might chus6
to act ? But how could this directly apply to the
case of Denmark, not an enemy herself, and respec-
tingwhomthereis a complete departure from the secret
articles, arrangements, and hostile preparations, which
are reduced merely to the designs of the enemy, to
combine certain Powers of Europe with himself
aginst this country. Was it possible that such a
construction of the case could amount to a justifia;
ble cause of war ? Upon entering into that war which.
terminated so fatally in the catastrophe of Austerlitz,
many engagements, and secret engagements too,
were made with different Powers of Europe. Who,
ever were the Powers, Prussia or Naples, or any othet
with whom we had any secret negociation, if the%
had been attacked on some mere suspicion, whit
should we not have heard of gigantic and unjuitifit.:
able ambition? He did not, however, mean to cast
any blame on those secret negotiations ; but what
Would have been said, had the enemy seized ben:
mark then, as he did Naples, to the possibly perpe!
tual exelnsion of the family of that Sovereign, be-
cause he took some part in the hostilities ? lathe case
of Besse, he acted upon the principle of a suspected
adherence, anddesire of assisting the arms of Prussia;
and what clamours were raised, and justly raised
against him on that account ? The charge againse
Hesse was, that of expected co-operation with his
Prussian enemy. The great objections the Noble
Lord felt to all the apologies he had lyird was, that
they sO confounded the only grounds on which the
transaction could be justified, that a strong suspi-
cion was necessarily cast upon those who conducted
the whole business, and upon the principle of the
measure. If Denmark was a party in the plans of
France—if it could be shewn that any articles of that
sort had been mutually agreed to—if any sort of
proof could be given of the intended conduct of
Denmark in favour of France and in hostility to Great
Britaiq, thit was a cause for our proceedings, and
the ouly,question remaining would have been one of
policy.—But was it so ?—Where was the proof ?
The Declaration did not assert it suiliciently, nor did
it contain any proofs ; the Russian declaration denied
it, and his Majesty's speech declared no such thing.
Yet two things had been stated that night ; that the
Danish Navy was in a state of preparation, and that
Denmark had shewn evident signs of hostility to-
wards us; now these were points necessary to be
fairly considered. Was it a fit ground for bom-
barding the capital of Denmark, that she had pre-
pared her fleet in time of general warfare ? Should
a former difference between us and Denmark, which
had been settled by treaty, and sunk, as it were, '
into oblivion, be revived against her as a ground of
charge, after mutual pledges of amity had been ex-
changed ? Because Denmark had been equivocal, and
indeed hostile in her politics and proceedings at a
former period, should her naval preparations in 1807
be taken as signs of hostility against Great Britain
under all the circumstances of her situation ? A 4;
effort had been made to spew that Denmark, in 1801,
had manifested hostile sentiments, under the influence
of Russia, and that she had stated the pressure of
Russia as her inducement. His Lordship remetn-
bered much of that business, but he was not in office
at the final close of it ; but he could confidentlyassert,
that up to the month of March no such pretence was
allediged, and, therefore, that, as to the origin of that
affair, the assertions made were confuted in fact. As
to the subsequent period, the precedent was not much
better, for, in truth, Denmark was the prime insti-
gator of the whole of that question, and the league
that took place ; it was not, on that occasion, the
yielding bf Denmark to any menaces of Russia ;_
. Iburt
after what had happened, would' any
_No* Lord
say, that her conduct then ought to be remembered
against .her, and that, therefore, a strong doubt ought
to be cast won all her subsequent conduct # If
there Wcre grounds to justify the attack, sihere were
the proofs ? If the Danish navy was in a peculiar state
of preparation, let Parliament have evidence laid be.
.fprethemupon that subject. Let them have some
:100hentic documents on which to judge. Thole proofs
mtlts; exist. Ministers had it jn their. power, he sup,
posed, to give tuuivoca.l proofs on this head. But,
Wore their Lorips wife called upon to give their
_apini9n: on such a trnusatutit, it wat, at least, nests-
Aory. Atatisorile.fac&tiboilg 43.431461464ectmkwhich