The Sun.
London, England, 1845-05-03 00:00:00

lands in the hands of the monasteries were much better culti-
vated than the lands which were held by lay psrsens.
Lord CLIVE would suppott the motion of the Ilt.n. Mem-
ber for Hull. He thought that as the College of Maynooth
could hold land indirectly, by means of the intervention of
trustees, it would be much better if it were allowed to hold it
directly.—( Hear, hear.)
The gallery was then cleared for a division, but none took
place, the amendment having been withdrawn.
Mr. STAFFORD O'BRIEN moved the substitution of the
word " thirty" for the word " three" in the 33ti line of the 2d
clause. He thought that his motion was different f, orn that of
the Hon. Member for Hull. He wished to give the Roman
Catholics of Ireland an opportunity of acting on the voluntary
principle, which tin.y seemed to approve of. He did not agree
with the Hon. Member for Montrose, that Lis motion,
adopted. would lead to increased irritation nut of doors.
Mr. HUME recommended the withdrawal of the amend-
ment, because it would excite unnecessary alarm. He thought
the public had slready greatly mistaken the nature of the Bill.
Sir R. INGLIS thought the Hon. Member was outbidding
even the Government, and would not therefore support him.
He thought the Hon. Member would at encc withdrs w the
clause and allow them to proceed to the consideration of the
other clauses.
Mr. SMYTHE thought it was very absurd in a State to
tolerate and even to recognise religion, and yet proscribe reli-
gious munificence and limit its extent. —(Hcar. )
After a few words from Mr. DARBY,
Mr. HUME said he bad been quite misunderstood. If Hon.
Gentlemen asked him what he would do if he had the power
of remodelling the three kingdoms, he did net think he would
be bound to tell them—(A laugh)—they were there tolegis'ate
upon a particular subject. Some were more alarmed at the
pretended increase of Popery—he confessed he felt no alarm at
all on the subject. Some lion. Members had spoken of want
of gratitude on the part of the Irish people. Now he did not
think the Irish people could be expected to go down upsn their
knees and thank them for so small a favour. They had but
little reason to express gratitude for what had been done. He
regretted that more Christian feeling and Christian sympAthy
for our Roman Catholic fellow-countrymen had not been mere
generally shown.
Mr. ROEBUCK wished to know whether the Hon. Mem-
ber for Northamptonshire would divide the House.
Mr. S. O'BRIEN said, that after what had been said by
the lion. Member for the University of Oxford, he did not
think he would. The Hon. Gentleman seemed to have great
anxiety to proceed with the Bill.
Sir R. INGLI s id he intended to give every fair and legi-
timate opposition to the measure, but none other.—( Hear. )
Mr. REDINGTON reminded the House that no Hon.
Member—that no one or. his side of the House asked him to
withdraw the amendment.
Mr. S. O'BRIEN said he understood what the Hon. Mem-
ber for Dundalk meant, and would divide the House on the
amendment.
The House then divided, when there uppeared—
For the amendment
Against it
Majority against the amendment
Mr. LAW, who had a motion on the paper for negativing
the 10th and 11th clauses, said that the Bill enabled the
trustees to receive any amount of personal property, and a large
quantity .0! landed property. The remaining clauses in the
Bill principally rested on the foundation of the Consolidated
Fund. He proposed to negative all the clauses dependent
upon the Con,olidated Fund, but to take no division on the
intermediate clauses.
On clause 4 being proposed,
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that in line R he would pro-
pose an alteration. If they would look at clause 7, where
provision was made for the Dunboyne students, they would
observe that provision was made for attendance, &c., for the
senior students, whereas, in the clause now under the conside-
ration of the House, provision was-only made for the president,
vice-president, princi, als, and vice-principals. The sum was
limited to 6,0001., which was to be at the disposal of the trus-
tees. It had been suggested to him to add the words,
" Whereas it is expedient that provision be made for the sala-
ries of president, vice-president, principal, and vice-principal,
in said colleges, and to extend the attendance and other neces-
saries to be supplied for their use."
After a few words from Mr. LAW in approval of the formal
mode of the amendment,
Mr. PLUMPTRE said that much had been said about the
poverty of the Roman Catholic clergy, but he did not think
that Roman Catholics themselves would admit any such
poverty—they would repudiate the imputation. Expensive and
beautiful churches were everywhere building throughout
Ireland. In Waterford, 70,000/. had been expended on a
cathedral.

Mr. HUME would ask the Honourable Member for Kent
why grants were made to the Universities of Oxford and Cam-
bridge, to the Protestant Dissenters, and the Scottish clergy ?
If the Hon. Gentleman would answer this question, then he
(Mr. Hume) would give the Hon. Gentleman au answer to
the question he had asked.
Colonel SIBTHORP trusted this detestable clause would
not be allowed to pass.—( Great laughter.)
Mr. WILLIAMS said he had always found that the Hon.
Member for Kent was ready to vote money most lavishly for
everything except the grant to 111aynooth. The vote of 91/.
to the Bishop of Exeter, for his expenses in visiting a ra-
tion of his diocese—the vote of 11,000/. to the clergy of all de-
nominations in the colonies—the vote to the Jews, Catholics.
Wesleyans, and others in Jamaica—all were supported by the
Hon. Member for Kent.
Mr. WYE made some observations, which were inaudible
in the gallery.
Mr. FERRAND raid the Right Honourable Gentleman
at the head of the Government had stated that it was ex-
pedient to pass this measure as a measure of peace
to Ireland—what had been the result of this

Mr. S. O'Brien had, in the Conciliation Hall, talked
about an American fleet sweeping the Channel, and of one
third of the British army deserting the Queen. He (Mr.
Ferrand) trusted that her Majesty's Government woidd have
the decency not to force this Bill through Committiee that
night. He believed that during the Whitsuntide holidays
general meetings of the constituencies would be convened.

Many Members had come into that House pledged to resign
their seats when called upon by a majority of their constituents.
Were they ready to redeem that pledge? He understood that
_ _

the Honourable Member opposite (Mr. Stansfield9 was pre-
pared to do so, and this did him honour.
Mr. ST AN SFIELD said he had been waited upon by a de-
putation, and he had certainly stated that he had felt bound in
honour to vote according to his own conscience.—(Cheers.)
He felt that this was a measure of justice to that part of her
Majesty's ,'ominions to which the Bill was applied. He cer-
tainly objecttd to this money being taken frorn the Consoli-
dated Fund, and he had therefore supported the motion of the
Honourable Alember for Sheffield. This motion not being
. . .

successful, he rtill felt
vote for the motion of

it to
the

be his duty to
Government. There

were many other questions asked him. Amongst others,
whether ho would continue to support this measure against
the opinions of his constituents? lie said that he thought it
his duty to attend to the wishes of his constituents, but that
he had a higher duty, which was to attend to the interests of
the whole commons of England.—(Cheers.) He said that if
he were to be forced to vote against his own conscience he
would rather resign. —( Cheers.) He had been reported to
say something about resigning. He had said just what he had
stated to the House, that he would prefer resigning to voting
against his conscientious opinion.
Mr. SHAW objected upon principle to the endowment of
any Catholic college, and the amount was no part of his objee-
tion.—( Hear, hear.) At the same time, he did not think that
the college itself would be benefited by the grant.—( Hear.)
It had been very truly said that the Catholics in this country
supported several colleges, anti he thought that the Roman
Catholics in Ireland could do the same. He would not object
to give the Catholics the power of endowing a college for
themselves.
Mr. WYSE said that the Right Hon. and Learned Mem-
ber spoke as if the Catholics of Ireland supported no college of
their own ; whereas they supported a college in Galway, one
in Meath, one in Kilkenny, and one at Carlow. lie thought
the fact that they supported colleges at their own expense en-
titled them the more to support from the State.—(Hear, hear.)
It was impossible in the present condition of the funds of May-
nooth that the education of the priests could be adequate to the
high office they were destined to till. The State had taken
upon itself the support of the college, and the least it could do
was to give a sufficient support.
Mr. SHAW had not denied the liberality of the Catholics of
Ireland as regarded the education of their clergy. He only
said the State ought not to be called upon to educate priests
for them. As fur the general purposes of a liberal education
the University of Dublin was open equally to Catholics and
Protestants, except only the officers on the foundation, such as
scholars and the fellows.
Mr. REDINGTON said that as an Irish Roman Catholic
be felt the deepest interest in the college in which the priests
were to be educated. He denied to ;the Roman Catholics of
Ireland deserved the taunt of the Learned Recorder, that they
ought to support their own college. The Catholics had, of
late years, built churches out of their poor means, almost ses
rival those great temples of religion which their Catholic an-
cestors had built, and which were now occupied by the
professors of the dominant religion. He hoped he should never
hear again such illiberal language even from the Hon.
and Learned Recorder. The State had hitherto con-
tributed a small portion of that of which the Irish Catholic
Church had bet n plundered with the sanction of the State,
and it was time that the contribution should be increased.
Sir R. INGLIS protested against the language of the Hon.
Member who spoke last, and said that the Established Church
had plundered the Roman Catholic with the sanction of the
State. There was much of that kind of language held out of
doors, but he could not hear it in the House without protest.
Mr. WYSE said it was matter of history, that the Catholic
Church was plundered at the period of the Reformation. Nor
was it that Church alone that was plundered ; but the Catholic
landed proprietors in Ireland were plundered of their estates.
Mr. ORMSBY GORE believed that the measure would
be exceedingly useful, and he could assure the Right Hon.
Baronet that he should have his firmest support. He assured
the Right Hon. Baronet that he was supported by a strong
religious feeling in the House and out of doors.—( Cheers.)
Whatever might be the consequences to himself he would give
the measure his snost strenuous and most religions support, and
no consideration on earth could induce him to shrink from de-
claring the joy which he felt at the announcement of so useful.
a measure.—(Cheers.) He respected the feelings of that
who petitioned against the measure, but it was well
known that every change for the better had met with
equally boisterous opposition, and he hoped the Government
would not be deterred from persevering in the pious and n01.14e
work which they had begun.
Mr. JAMES was anxious to state the fact that, inacva try
which he had lately visited, Belgium, the Catholic Legislatureil
of that country granted a handsome stipend to various Protes-
tant clergymen in that country. In Brussels there
were
ewe
clergymen, who had salaries from the Government,
andthter:
were several others similarly supported in Ghent and other
towns. He was sorry that circumstances precluded the P°
bility of being present to vote for the
measure of thellisi
Right
lion. Baronet. He would now take the opportunity of most
cordially giving his support in favour of the grant.—( Hear.)
The clause was then agreed to.
On clause 5 being proposed,
Mr. COLLETT wished to know what was the stipend
which the Dunbosne students were to receive ?
Sir R. PEEL said that it was their intention that the Dun-
boyn students were to receive tisl. each per annum.
This clause, together with clauses 6 and 7, were then
agreed to.
On clause 8 being put,
Sir J. GRAHAM said that he was tles.m.us to insert two
words in this clause, which related to the accommodation of the
students. He wished that tt.-,e words " professors and " should
be put before the wont 1. students."
Colonel SIBT11:01113 said that he was against the whole
Bill from l'"iinning to end. He would do all he could to in-
duce ',:iembers to throw it out altogether.—(Laughter.)
The clause, as amended, was agreed to.
Clauses 9, 12, 13, and 14, were then agreed to.
On clause 15 being proposed
Mr. PLUMPTRE said that as it related to the controul
over the education pursued at the College, he would object to
the class books which were used there.
Clause 15 was then put and agreed to, as was clause 16.
Before clause 17 being read,
Mr. WYSE said he would take the opportunity of this
clause being read, to state, in reply to the lion. Member. oppo-
site, that " Denn's 'l'heolop'
been read, at Maynooth College. Ile u
was
not
now,ld a 1 nor
rs
state torsi
ittliaTirt"
was erroneous that the Pope exercised v
IrclantLor in any other kingdom of Europe,.inanyll.l,7mitioo,orthai:poorwei7.
dt:lrliesa'd „passage front kJOkl
be begged to state, in
whatever. And now, having
addition, that he would undertakesaid