The Sun.
London, England, 1845-06-17 00:00:00

advanced against this clause were sufficient to influence the de-
cision of the Howe.

Sir R. PEEL contended that undue importann, was attached
to paper currency. Let the House look to th i manner in
which the enormous transactions at Liverpool and Manchester
were conducted. There the only bank notes in circulation were
those of the Bank of England and the Bank of England only.
Those notes represented sovereigns, and if such notes were to
be abolished to-morrow, sovereigns would be used in their
stead without very much inconvenience being felt. The value
of paper issue was regulated by the celerity with which it could
be converted into cash and by that only.

Mr. WILLIAMS supported the clause.
Sir W. SOMERVILL E supported the clause, though he
believed his endeavours would meet with but little success.
On the question being put,
Mr. W. S. O'BRIEN expressed his determination to divide
upon the proposition, although despairing of success ; he would
gladly effect a compromise and withdraw his clause, if the Right
Hon. Baronet would modify his measure.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could see
nothing so objectionable in the Bill introduced, as it was in the
same spirit as had characteri3ed similar measures for England
and Scotland.

Mr. O'CONNELL denied the analogy between the con-
stitution of the Irish and the Scotch banks. In the latter
there was a monopoly and an exclusive circulation of capital
wholly foreign to the Irish establishments.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and on there re-
admission, the numbers appeared—
For the clause
Against it
Majority against the clause
ACADEMICAL INSTITUTIONS (IRELAND) BILL.
On the motion for the Order of the Day being read to
bring up the Report on the Irish Colleges Bill,
Mr. SMITH O'BRIEN presented a petition from the Loyal
National Repeal Association against the 10th clause of that Bill.
Mr. OSBORNE postponed his motion until the Right
Hon. Member the Recorder of Dublin was in his place to
answer any statements he might make respecting the Univer-
sity of Dublin.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM, not seeing the Hon. Member for
London in his place, postponed entering into detail upon the
Irish Colleges Bill till Thursday next.
Mr. O'CONNELL would not oppose the delay, if conve-
nient, to the Government, but he hoped it would be under-
stood that he was no party to the arrangement.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL said there was a very great differ-
ence of opinion out of the House, among Catholics, respecting
this measure. The Irish Prelates were to meet in a few days
to discuss the question, and their opinion could not reach the
Members in that House who might be influenced by it, till
Thursday next. He hoped, therefore, it would be postponed
till Thursday week, to await the result of that conference.
Mr. DILLON BROWN concurred in pressing for a further
delay.
Mr. HUME thought the reasons advanced for the postpone-
ment the very strongest that could be used for proceeding with-
out delay.—( Laughter.) He could not understand what the
Irish Catholics had to do with this measure. Let them confine
themselves to their own element, and as the present was a mea-
sure to give secular education to all classes of Irishmen, irre-
spective of religious distinctions, he thought neither a Protestant
nor Catholic hierachy should be consulted upon it. He considered
it would be very improper, as the measure was intended for the
general good of all classes, for either the Roman Catholic
bishops or the Protestants to interfere in the matter.
Mr. SHEIL said, his Hon. Friend the late Member for
Kilkenny had declared that the present scheme was entirely a
system of secular education, and therefore it met with his appro-
bation. Religio rni nullus sit should be the motto of the Hon.
Gentleman. The Government on the other hand had de-
clared that the ►neasure was not exclusively a system of
secular education. He (Mr. Shell) thought it was
a signal error in not having, in the first instance, consulted
the opinions of the Irish Bishops. A synod of the Bishops had
been held, in which they had expressed their condemnation of
the Bill in certain particulars ; but at the same time they had
given the Government every credit for the goodness of their
intentions. The Bishops, in the memorial which had been
transmitted to the Lord-Lieutenant, had pointed out objections
to the measure which were insuperable. The Government
were called upon to state how far they acquiesced in the views
entertained by the Catholic Bishops. The Government under-
took to give them every due consideration, with a view to
their alteration. The Noble Lord the Member for London
had said he approved of the Bill, but not with the proposed
alterations. The Right Hon. Baronet had been asked several
questions respecting the matter, one of which was, would he
consent to the appointment of a chaplain to the colleges profess-
ing either the Roman Catholic or the Protestant faith ; and
secondly, whether he would acquiesce in the appointment of a
Roman Catholic Bishop by the Crown ? No definite answers
hid yet been given to these questions, which had been delayed
till the present time ; and he had come down with the full
conviction that, on the present occasion, the Right
Honourable Gentleman would inform the House on these
two important particulars whether any change was contem-
plated by the Government. He advised the policy of com-
municating fully with the Catholic Bishops before any further
steps be taken.
Mr. GOLQUHOUN considered that in any system of edu-
cation that was proposed to be adopted by the House, it would
be most unconstitutional and hostile to the feelings of Eng •
land, if, before the House had decided on the matter, any
hierarchy, be they who they may, were called in to assist at
their councils.—( Hear.) Still more objectionable would it he
to call to their councils a class of men who had assisted more
strenuously and uniformly in the agitation promoted by the
Hon. and Learned Member opposite for the dismemberment of
the empire.
Mr. O'CONNELL—No, no.—No, no.
Mr. COLQUHOUN hoped the Hon. Member would allow
him to proceed, for he was not now on the floor of Conciliation
Hall, but in the British House of Commons, which was usually
understood to be an assembly of gentlemen. He would sea
it would be prudent for the House not to consult the Irish
Bishops, but their own temperate and unbiassed judgment. Was
it fitting or proper that the House of Commons should be tam-
pered with, and kept hesitating and delaying from day to day,
until the consent and approval of the Roman Catholic Bishops
had been obtained to the measure. ( Hear, hear.) He
should never hear such a course hinted at without expressing
against it his most resolute protest. He would ask the
Hon. and Learned Member opposite what support he
had received from the Roman Catholic priesthood in influenc-
ing the people in the agitation of repeal. It was known that a
Catholic bishop, by the discipline of the Church. had autho-
rity to dispossess any priest of the revenues of his benefice, and
this power was used as an instrument for compelling the priests
to re-echo and confirm the sentiments of the bishop on any
question that might arise, and it had been used for promoting
the spread of repeal.
Mr. O'CONNELL said he would not now enter into the
subject of repeal. He thought the Hon. Gentleman would be
an exceedingly bad member of Conciliation Hall. No Catholic
bishop could deprive any priest of his bsnefice who had been
regularly inducted into it. The Irish clergy never attempted
to interfere or meddle with the education of the Protestants,
and he would claim for the education of the Catholics the same
immunity. Although he could not precise) agree with the
Right Hon. Baronet who stigmatised the present scheme as a
godless system of education, he had come over to insist on the
absolute necessity of making religion the basis of their educa-
tion, and the total failure that would ensue if it were not
made the basis. It would be no harm to treat the Roman
Catholic bishops in a conciliatory manner. He would wish the
present discussion to be carried on in a spirit of amity.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said he most cordially joined in the
sentiment last uttered by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, and
he hoped that no great difference of opinion would exist among
them. The proposed scheme of education must be deeply in-
teresting to the Roman Catholics, and although he was not
prepared to say that the Government would consent to summon
the Roman Catholic bishops to their counsels on this subject,
yet their opinion ought to be received with respect. In answer
to the question of the Right Hon. Gentleman the Member for
Dungarvon, he did say that the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland had
received a deputation and memorial from the bishops. Some
of their objections had been resolved by an explanation at the
time. Since then no further communication had been
made between the Lord-Lieutenant and the bishops. The
present plan did not provide for religious instruction within
he walls of the college, but no obstacle would be put forth to
prevent religious education being conducted without the walls.
He would go further into the subject when he made the motion
for going into Committee on the Bill. He would take the pre-
sent opportunity of sta ing that a reasonable time would be
afforded the people of Ireland for the full consideration of the
measure, before the third reading, and any alteration that might
oe considered advisable would be attended to. He should
postpone the motion for the Committee till Thursday next.
Sir WALTER JAMES said he was greatly surprised at
the observations of the Hon. Gentleman who had stated that
the hierarchy of Ireland had taken an active part in promoting
the repeal agitation in Ireland. This was not the time for
going into the conduct of the Roman Catholic bishops, though
he might observe that they had his sincere and hearty respect.
To a certain respect he sympathised with them, in their
opposition to this measure. He could understand their
opposition to education of a scientific character, to teach•
ing of a purely material and physical nature, and why
they should conceive such an education calculated to take away
attention from heavenly things. It was reasonable that such a
plan should call forth such an opinion as that which had been
made against the measure. It was his opinion that much of the
opposition which had been brought to bear against the measure
would have been saved if the principle of the Bill had been
applied under another name. It was said to be collegiate,
instead of which it was more universitari in than collegiate in its
character. He deeply regretted to live in days when every
theologian was a politician, and every politician a theologian ;
yet every measure of such a character as that before the House
was sure to he considered from such a point of view.
Mr. JEPHSON considered that nothing could be more
reasonable than the memorial of the Roman Catholic Bishops.
Unless they were satisfied with the measure, it was perfectly
useless for the Right Hon. Baronet to go forward with the
question.
Mr. ROCHE only rose to state his great pleasure at the
speech delivered by the Hon. Baronet ( Sir Walter James).
He considered the best course was to allow the measure, after
the discussion which had taken place on it, to go into Ireland,
there to be discussed previous to its final settlement. He was
delighted at this coarse, as he was sure it would lead to a good
understanding regarding the general principle of the Bill.
After a few words from isle. J. W. HOPE,
The Report of the resolution of the Committee was put
and agreed to.