The Sun.
London, England, 1842-06-18 00:00:00

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classes. It might, however, be said that they could impose
those taxes exclusively on the rich. But it should be observed,
that if they were to adopt such a course, they would hold out
an inducement to parties to evade such taxes, by reducing their
expenditure. lie thought he had said enough to show, that
by no change in our taxation could the present deficiency i:t the
revenue be supplied. There were some parties, however, who
thought it advisable that we should increase our revenue by a
fixed duty upon corn. Now, he should say that he doubted
the polio, of making a duty upon corn a part of a fixed fiscal
plan. It would be most unsafe to rely upon it as a source of
revenue, as the amount of duty to be raised by such means, unuld
necessarily perpetually fluctuate. Then there w ere the articles
of sugar and corn. They could not. consistently with good policy,
raise a large duty upon timber, which was an article of hourly
use, and of the utmost importance. It entered into our ma-
nufactures, our buildings, and our shipping ; and he did not
think that any party would wish to see a large amount of
revenue raised by a high rate of duty upon such an article.
Sugar was the next item. The idea which had ocean-red
with respect to sugar, had been recently stated elsewhere. It
was said that a reduction in the duty would benefit the con-
sumer. Now he was ready to admit that a reduction of the
duty would do so if it were carried far enough ; a 'educ-
tion would have no good effect. Let them see the effect ti the
revenue. The proposition was 4s. on one-sixth of the present
duty, and on foreign it was 30s. instead of 635. Now. ik hat
would be the effect of that. ? In would, in the first place, 1:e to
diminish the revenue derived from British sugar one-sixteclith.
In 1841, the net revenue derived from Sugar was 5,114,t ;
consequently, if that duty of 20s. had been levied instead of
245., the effect would have been to reduce the amount of :hat
one—ixth, and there would be a loss of 852,000/. But the
as.umption was nor only a loss, but that there would bo an
increase to the revenue, arising from that charge, esti-I-mi.,' at
700,0001. ; so that, by this plan, they were to lose
852,0001., with a gain of 700,00C1. to meet it. The
consumption of the last year was the largest aver
known in this country. The consumption was equi-
valent to 24i1b. per head, and the average price was
375. lid., exclusive of duty. The duty being 205., according
to this hypothesis, would raise the price to 575. lid. In the
years 1830, 18.31, and 1832, the price of sugar was remark-
ably low :

Years. Price. Duty. Total.
In 1830 ...... 245. lld.
1831
1832
reduce the price from 245. to 305., would have the effect of re-
ducing the price down to the average price of those sears.
Now, what would be the amount of that addition to the eon.
sumption, which was about lib. per head, and would mount to
8.328 tons of sugar ? The total amount of consumption would
be 218,714 tons, producing an increase to the revenue of
218,0001., and this to meet 820,000/Joss. These were the
grounds upon which he defended the course adopted by her
Majesty's Government—the situation of our finances, wehout
any prospect of a reduction in the expenditure, would justify
the course they had pursued. It was absolutely necessary to
make a great effort once for all, and therefore he conceived,
that in spite of all the objections—in spite of all the supposed
benefits offered by other schemes—schemes more plausible, in
one sense—in spite of all, he still thought their Lo dships
would do well to follow the example of the other House of
Parliament, and pass that Bill as the most efficient mode of
meeting the exigencies, which must be met somehow, and
which, if they did not meet, they would expose the country to
the greatest possible evils.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE rose to more the resolution
of which he had given notice for the secoud reading of this
Bill. He was happy that his absence had not retarded the
progress of this Bill, which it had never been his wish to oh-
struct.—(Hear, hear, from the Duke of Wellington.) All
that he wished was, to have an opportunity, with those who
agreed with him, of expressing his disapprobation of the mea-
sure. He entirely agreed with the Noble Lord who hail just
addressed the House, that it was necessary that the revenue
should be raised to an equality with the expenditure, and that
the deficiency ought not to be made up by an addition to the
national debt.—( Hear.) Neither did he think that anything
could be done by reducing the establishments of the country,
which were not greater than the exigencies required. As to
the present difficulties of the country, he was neither so san-
guine as to suppose that they were immediately to terminate,
nor was he so desponding as to apprehend that they were te be
permanent. But he agreed altogether with the Noble Lent
that the deficiency was to be dealt with, without these coos:ite-
rations ; that it wasto be supplied without considering whether
it was for this year only or for many in prospect.—( hear.
hear.) But then he came to the question of the
Income-tax as a substitute for all those taxes which at
present were in existence. It might be a great and beneficial
change from the present system of taxation to one of incest-le—
-1 it might be a beneficial change : but it was one which they
were not in a condition to diseuss. It was a change, w Lich
was not warranted by a deficiency of two millions and a half.
It would stand to reason at all times that when they were called
upon to make good a deficit they should do so as far as pie-
sible by modification of existing taxes. How much more so
was that necessary when they considered the distress and suf-
fering of a large portion of the population ? In such circum-
stances, it they were compelled to resort to direct taxation, it
should be to that mode which would be the least burthensome
and the least unpalatable. Let them see how this applied to
the Income-tax. The book was on the table; it was large,
thick, and voluminous ; it was a gigantic offspring of a five
months' labour.—(Cheers.) It was certainly an efficaeions
tax. So was the lancet an efficacious instrument. The tax
would surely draw the money from the pockets of the people
as the lancet would draw blood from the veins of the patient. or
from the arteries perhaps, as there was little discrimination
in the mode of applying it, or regard to the consequeuees
which would follow to the constitution or comfort of the patient.
Efficacy was the sole recommendation of the new tax. It had
been elsewhere boasted that the tax would affect the rich a!one,
that, in fact, they were taxing themselves; but was it not really
the case, that this tax struck immediately at that capital w hich
put the labour of the country into activity, and that the imly
savings by which those who paid it could relieve themselves of
the burden, would come from that fund from which emiloy-
merit was given to the people ? An Income-tax was a gigantic
instrument, which had been used in cases only of the greatest
exigency ; and he could not but feel surprised that the Govern-
ment had thought it necessary to have recourse to it to meet a
deficit of 2,500,0001. It reminded him of a party who had an
elephant sent to him, which he employed in his garden in seve-
ral trifling services ; but he soon found that the trouble of
keeping the elephant more than counterbalanced the serv.ces
which the animal rendered. The Income-tax had
in addition, the great disadvantage of being essentially
an unequal tax. It was unequal, even with rel.ect
to the landed proprietor; for although parties might seem to
hare the same interest in land, there were various circurnstaeees
which, in reality, rendered their interest very different. It eas
very unequal as regarded tenants, whose interest in their hold-
ings was influenced by various circumstances, which could not
be taken into account by the collectors of an Income-tax. 13ut
the tax pressed still more unequally on trades and professions,
which were for ever varying and uncertain. He had a still fur-
ther objection to an Income-tax, in the fact of its being one of
the most inquisitorial nature. He thought he had said enough
to convince their Lordships that nothing but an absolute neces-
sity could justify their agreeing to this tax. He denied that
this necessity existed. He believed that there were other
means of increasing the revenue. He was not going to revive
the discussion on the Corn-laws, but, the principle of protect ion
having been confirmed by both Houses of Parliament, he must
say that this tax seemed to be, not for the purpose of benefieng
the people, but merely of protecting those laws passed for pro-
tection. The corn introduced last year, if a fixed duty had ex-
isted, would have produced 500,0001. in addition to what it
had produced. He then came to the question of sugar, and if
ever there appeared to be created by Providence
an article made to be subservient to the wants of
the people, that was sugar. It being an article pro-
duced abroad justified a small duty on its introduction. '1 bas
article demanded the care of the Legislature, and that care e as
given not absolutely to deprive the poor man of this article,
but to extremely narrow his consumption of Cheers. )
Noble Lords could hardly believe the suffering of the icor
cottager from this deprivation. He had had personal ()Heir-
tunity of witnessing teis. The consumption bad been reduced
by this sort of legislation to less yer head than a convict's :1-
lowance. In st me cases it had been reduced to one-fourth
the amount of a convict's allowance. It had been found that
a cottager had at first taken sugar from one member sf lis
family after the other, until it teas found that he only ji,r-
chased at last enough to sweeten the food of a sick child.
( Hear, hear.) \Valet did not rush to its leael sooner than did a
disposition arise to purchase sugar in large districts upon a sud-
den reduction of pr:ce. 'thousands of tons of sugar were t vet
out of the country by this species of legislation. He millet
name many articles, the consumption of which had rapidly in-
creased upon a reduction of duty. One of these articles eas
coffee. It appeared from the statement of 111 r. Martineau tl,at
the moment the price fell to below 60s. the demand was un
limit, it. An immense demand suddenly sprung up. He mas
not ore who thought that there should be a complete equal za-
Lion oft he duty Let w cen the colonial produce and foreign proem 0,
but nothing could be more pernicious than a system of eon,
mous differ eotial duties. It was proved by the Chancellor of
the Exchequer last year that a reduction in the duty on su:zar
would produce to the revenue an income of 500,0001. 'lll,le
was one argument with respect to those duties which he stos
glad to find his Noble Friend had not made use of. It was en
argument continually made use of in the other House, that
however 14esirable it might be that the people should have che: p
sugar, still it could not be given to them while a state of
slavery existed. He thought it did honour to his Noble Friend.
But there were persons who recommended the people to start e,
and the country to go without revenue, in the hope—rest leg
on a weak foundation, a foundation their proceedings %, re
calculated to take away-Lin the hope of the slaves being eman-
cipated in various States of South America. There was a :tat
of conscience which flitted over the Budget of the Chancellor
of the Exchequer so well trained, that it knew when to apt ear
and when to disappear—when to show :tself, and when to wail:-
draw itself.—( Laughter.) He supposed they would net re-
fine arty more sugar for them. Oh no. They had refiner, at
home, and it was necessary that their interests should be pro.
teetesl; they did not mind refining a little sugar ; it was only
when sugar tame into the home consumption that they began
to be discontented.—( Hear.) When he stated that he thought
these were rather shallow pretences than solid arguments to
induce foreign Governments to adept a different policy from
their present, he trusted they would not think that he was le.s
impressed than any of their Lordships, with the horrors arid
abominations of slavery, and with the positive necessity for the
abolition of so cruel and disgraceful a practice. But it was the
threats that he objected to. It must be by the moral example
which they set to other nation!, and by proofs of the efficacy of
free labour, which they could afford, that they could ever 1,,,1e
to induce foreign nations to abolish the slave trade. He did,
however, protest against any attempt to interfere with the in-
ternal arrangements of other countries, knowing, as he did,
that such attempts were attended only with failure, and were
calculated to induce resentment on the part of the country in-
terfered with. It had lately cone to light that a most barbarous
and cruel system of labour had existed for some time en
the mining districts, with which their Lordships had hitherto
been unacquainted. Why, what would their Lordships theik tf
the French Ambassador here should suddenly rise tip and sty
that that country would no longer continue its commercial a,-
rangerneuts with us unle,s we consented never more to em' ley
fearsles er children in such a manner in cur mines? Vb, hy,
whatever might he the feeling of their Lordships upon the ari
propriety of that kind of labour, they would most unquestiensily
think that such an interference "as most jaesumptuous end
uncalled for on the part of any other country.— ( Hear, henr
hey should not, then, threaten other countries to abate:ell
their commercial treaties with then.rie, lbatitothr aeysshouldv,.uld
the such set t! stn
an m
ofx
the rof .
whichthe' th
would
eaacYo arise to themselves by adapt rue
e
that coup-e in preference to slave labour.— ( Hear, hear.) it,
Ai eight he had stated sufficient reasons to show that no time
should be het in effecting a change in the boas
regarding 'sugar. He should briefly advert to the a....
tide timber. His Honsurable Friend calculated lest
year that the reduction of the price of Norway timber would
tdii,dd
something like 600,0001. to the revenue; it was known ~.t
the price of Norway timber regulated the price of other timber,
and if tis. were taken off Norway timber, foreign timber of a
better quality could be purchased much cheaper than at pre..
sent, and the consumption, in consequence, would considerably
increase. He must say that, having considered the measures
proposed by the Government last year, he firmly believed that
they would produce a revenue of something like 1,700,0001., and
if a deficit to that amount could be made up by these measures,
why should they have recourse to an Income-tax ? A self-ial-
posed tax was always much more agreeable to the people thin
such a tax as an Income-tax ; by a self-imposed tax, he meant
one by which it rested with the people, whether they would pay
it dv not, by using or rejecting the articles on which the duty

was imposed, in opposition to a tax to collect which the tax-
gatherer called at the doors and demanded a sum, calculated
upon the earnings of the individual, without. the slightest con-
sent of the party taxed. He had not brought forward this te-
solution with a view of opposing the present Government—
(Hear, hear)—but he believed that other measures might. be
adopted which would at once he more beneficial to agr culture
and manufactures; aud, believing that, firmly as he did, he
thought that he had done nothing more than his ditty in pro-
posing the amendment which had been laid upon the table of
the House.—(Loud cheers.)
On the question being put,
Lord COLCHESTER rose to make a few remarks relative
to the article of sugar. The Noble Marquis, with lies usual
eloquence., had described the desire of the people to be able to
obtain an increased quantity of sugar, which, he contended, they
could not obtain unless the duty on foreign sugar were lowered.
He (Lord Colchester) would beg to call the attention of the
House to a Committee of that House which was appointed two
years ago, open a petition from the Fast India Com' any, for
the purl ose of inquiry here the capabilities of India for produ-
cing sugar. A great deal of evidence was taken before that.
Committee, from which it appeared that a sufficient queroity of
sugar could be obtained from those Islands to suppls the whole
of this country at the lithe which the Noble Marquis men-
tioned as a desirable one, sixty shillings ; and if that were
the case, he could see no 'casein fir reducing tl Cuty
upon forego sugar. The late inadequacy of l supply in
those islands had not arisen from the cheeps. from slave to free
labour, but from the uncommon droughts which prevails d. He
must dissent from the proposition of the Noble A:atop:is, be-
-cause he thought that the revenue upon which the Noble
guts calculated would not be realized by his proposition. whilst
our colonies would be considerably damaged if it were aliowe d
to pass.
Lord BR °LTG HAIII thought that the business would be ex-
pedited if he lose early to express the opinions which he still
entertained upon this subject. He agreed with the Noble
Marquis in all his remarks upon the inequality of the Income-
tax, upc.n its too faithfully pelloi ming its office of extracting
money from the pockets of the community, but unjustly, un-
equally, and oppressively ; and he agreed with the Noble Mar-
quis, above all, in the feelings to which he so eloquently gave
vent upon :he inquisitorial, necessarily inquisitorial, nature of
such an impost. There was one quality of the tax, however,
which the Noble Marquis omitted to consider, and which he
owned, more than all the rest, gave him a repugnance to it,
and that was its powerful nature for all 'imposes. Not chat,
like the elephant, its proboscis was was equal to picking up a
needle, but that it was equal to tearing up a tree or destroying
a rock. That, was a weapon he would not put into the Lards
of any Government, as it was a resource carefully to be con-
' fined to times of exigency. . As an ordinary source of
revenue, it was one that ought never to be entrusted to
any Government. His consent they never should have to
raise by a stroke of the pen, any sum of money that'
the patience of the people would bear. They had had
a sample of the consequences of introducing the Incorne-tae in
1816. In March of that year they destroyed the Income- tax,
and as it was in 1816 so it would be now. He entertained The
same objecticn he had always felt to this tax ; but when :he
question was between tbqdiscredit of the country, between a
continuing deficit, year after year, in the revenue—when that
deficit went on increasing from year to year, the Parhament
was called upon, and positively bound, if it would not desert its
duty to its country, to put an end to a state of things which had
gone on from bad to worse. The question being how to meet a
deficit—a growing deficit, which was, according to one aaleula-
tion,
.upwards of 3,000,0001., and another, 2,500,000/ —such
being the deficit to be met, the only question was whether his
Noble Friend's plan or ties. Income-tax was best to be adopted,
it being admitted that the Income-tax would be the worst, if
the other was possible. They had had from his Noble Friend
a restatement of the plan of last year, with a slight alteration in
the sugar duties. Now he could not help thinking, if his
Noble Friends behind him had elways entertained the same
hostility to the Income-tax they did at the present moment,
they would have adopted a different course of dealing with te-
spect to it. When the-Government brought it forward, they
would have resisted it ; they would not have allowed one single
instant to elapse from the moment the proposition was made,
before they announced their hostility. Was such, however, the
course taken by his Noble Friends'? Did they oppose.it when
it was first brought forward ? Certainly not. It was inn o-
duced on Friday, 11th of March, and a whole week was allowed
to elapse before they could make up their minds to oppose it.
When it was brought forward, a Noble Friend of his avowed
that, as a whole, all parties must clearly admit it was a great
plan, and worthy of the Ministers of a great country. That
was all the resistance, opposition, and protest that was made
against the plan. On Monday, the 14th, an opportunity was
given to his Noble Friend of recalling the admission hr had
made on I riday, but that opportunity was not embraced, and
even on Thursday, when the debate was brought forward, his
Noble Friends had not made up their minds upon the subject of
the Income-tax. Even after a meeting had taken place in the
City, complaining of the injustice of the tax on terminable an-
nuities, they did not make up their minds; and it was toot till
the next week it was determined to oppose the mea-
sure in the House of Commons ; and his Noble Friend
now opposed it candidly, certainly, but faintly.
Again, this was to be taken into account, that when grain ws-
dear, the ports would be open, and the Bs. duty would be eb.
tained. But in that very year there would be a deficit of Ex-
cise, which would have to be set off against all the gain from
the fixed duty ; so that upon the balance it would give wet:3.ly
no revenue at all. Last of all eame the objection which was
the most important and weighty—that it was a tax upon Mod,
a bread-tax, which Parliament had no right whatever to levy.
Hear.) Still he preferred any fixed duty toe sliding scale--
as much superior to the present slidings case as the latter was
to the former one. The Government of last year (according
to the declaration of a Noble Friend of his, not made in that
House, nor in the other, but elsewhere) brought forwaid the
proposition of the Bs. duty neither as a measure of finance, nor.
as a measure of relief, but because they were urged by the
importunities of their friends and goaded by the taunts of their
adversaries. Coming next to the sugar duties, the same per
tentage of differential duty was maintained. But he felt it pis
duty to protest against the doctrines laid down on this subject
by his Noble Friend behind him (the Marquis of Lansdowne).
If his Noble Friend would favour him with his attention, he
would endeavour to show him that. the reduction of the duty
would not be compatible with a desire to discourage the slave-
trade. It was not to protect the planters he desired, but to
protect the Africans in Africa against the slave-trade. What
was the case? Our own colonies produced too little sugar.
What were the means—the easy means, by which his Nettle
Friend proposed to raise a revenue? By taking off 4s. from
the duty upon the foreign production, so much revenue,
amounting to 750,0001. yielded by the colonial sugar, must be
abandoned ; and to gain the 800,0001. of revenue wanted, and
expected to be derived from this tax, 1;500,000/. must he
raised upon sugar from Cuba and Brad. 'this proposed sub-
stitute for the Income-tax—this positive and certain means of
supplying the deficit in the revenue—must be raised by import-
ing
100,000 hogsheads of Cuba or Brazilian sugar. It was
mighty weal to talk of all the good that would be dane to rite
population of our own country—of their comforts, their in-
creased trade and wealth. But what did it mean but that
some 20,000 or 40,000 unhappy Africans should be torn from
their homes, carried through all the horrors of the middle
passage, to take, in the West Indies, the sugar which was to
give that duty?—(Hear, hear.) He agreed with his No-
ble Friend that sugar was not the only article of
slave-labour production. But the two things passing by the
same name, were as different as two things similarly named
could be. There was no possible comparison, except in the
name, between the employment of slave-labour in cotton and in
sugar plantations. The slave trade was not to be regarded as
an institution of Brazil or Cuba—it was an institution of no
country. The Legislature of this country, of all others,
owed it no respect.—(Hear, hear.) But the whole propo-
sition of his Noble Friend went directly to encourage, to fe seer,
arid, if possible, to perpetuate it.—( Hear, hear.) He held it
to he plainly demonstrated that the instant they lowered their
duties on the sugars of Spanish colonies and the Brazilian
empire, 40,000 or 50,000 negroes would be taken from Africa
to the horrors of the West Indies. This view of the case re-
conciled him in some degree to the Income-tax. He wonlsi
now, however, state scare of the objections which he enter-
tained to this measure. Knowing the impo.sibility of making
any material alterations in the bill as it stood, he would not
urge his objections at any great length. He would first suggest
to the House that the course which common fearless toware's
that House would have semen to dictate was to divide the
Bill into two parts. If their Lordships would give their caretul
attention to the details of the BR, they would see that there
were defects in it which the warmest frieod of the measure niust
desire to see remedied ; but there were some iacts relating to
the levying of the tax itself, which he was perfectly et., tail.
must be altered as soon as their errors were made ma,nifesr.
He now referred to that part of the Bill which related' to the
appointment of the Commissioners. The tray in which
this was arranged appeared to him to be altogether
unintelligible. The Land. tiers Commissioners were to meet
and to set down in writing the names of such Com-
missioners as should be appointed under the Act. Then came
a provision " that any seven, or any seven of the whole num-
ber, aud not less than seven, or any less number than seven,
out being in any case not less than three of the persons so set
down, and in the order in which they shall be, or set down in
such list, shale be Commissioners for the general purposes of this
Act." Now observe, if the Act required him to take upon him
the execution of this Act, he was liable to process to cenipei
the execution ; but how was he to know whether he was tee
take upon himself the execution of the Act? Hew was he to
he indicted and by whom? He could not tell, nor could any one
else, whether he was one of the seven. Then it was provided
that in case there should be a sufficient number of Com-
missioners chosen or appointed for general purposes, and see on,
and it was not said by whom they were to be chosen. Now,
with respect to courts of justice it was provided by the 30th
clause that the Lord High Chancellor, the Chief Justice, and
the principal officer or officers of each Court, should respec-
tively have authority to appoint Commissioners. There eras
nothing to show what was meant by the term " priecipal (Slicers."
By the 191st clause which was the quorum clause, "only two
Commissioners " were enabled to execute every power of the
Act. Now, observe the consequence. If he put in a claim for
exemption, two Commissioners might refuse to grant it, but
he might go to the other two, mid those two might :ign a
certificate which was binding upon the Commissioners for
special purposes. Therefore any two Commissioners might
give him the exemption, and the special Commissioners had
no option, any more than the Receiver-General. By the 44th
clause persons in the situation of trustees, agents, guaraians eif
infants, and committees of lunatics, were entitled to de duct
from the incomes of those parties coming into their heeds
whatever sums they had been assessed with. But then came
the 61st and the 165th clause, by which if a perdue should not
have been so assessed as to enable him to deduct, he w.ts to
be entitled to be repaid the money which he had advanced.
Rut there was no provision to prevent the party from applying
the money repaid to his own use. The 166th section was very
remarkable. It was there provided, that whoever should he
guilty of any fraud, or whoever should fraudulently conceal or
—not " and"—or untruly declare any income—scot falsely or
merely, but untruly, in optima fide—should be fined 201., sod
treble the duty charged. That referred to the principal. What
was tube the fine inflicted upon an accessory ? They would
naturally say less. But no—the principal being fined 20/. and
treble the duty, the accessory was to be fined no less than 501.
The parties appointed under this Act had most important func-
tions to perform; they were judicial functions, and quasi judi
vial funcoons. He could not he/p thinking, that it se null have
been better to have divided the Bell into two parts, one relating
to the portion of the Bill to which he had elk:sled, and the
other to the money part of the Bill. They might then t ate
made alterations me,vt useful to the measure, and erectiteb'e to
the Legislature. The same observations seemed to hint to

ajply to the only ether matter xhich he should call their

ships' attention to—viz., that part of the Bill relating t„ the
examination of wi'ne,ses. '1 lit re was the schedule F' contr.io-
ing five fin Ins of oaths, to be taken by various functionaries a d
officers employed; now, there had been unquestionably great
improvements noade in Bills o hieh had passed through tleir
Lordships' House ; that of reducing the number of oaths as tar
as possible, and substituting declarations for oaths alone.
could be effectually and usefully dune. He had no mann, r
doubt that one of the best changes they could have made in
this Bill, would have been to have substituted declarations iri
the place of oaths. So, also, with respect to the exa-
mination of persons under the 124th section. He had no manner
of doubt, it the suggestion he had formerly made of di
viding the Bill had been acted on, that their Lordships
would readily have leant to the proposition of altering tun-e
provisions to which he had alluded. He particularly alluded
to section 125. it was lawful to the Commissioners to exa-
mine any persons whom they thought likely to be able to give
evidence respecting the asses•ments made on any other person
--neighbours, friends, relatives, all but with one exception,
viz., agents. Persons confidentially entrusted might be called
Upon and examined with respect 'to the income, cod

circumstances, and the expenditure the whole mode
of living. The Commissioners 'might examine any per-
son but the agent. It might be said that a person might
• scape from this examination by resilient of 201 But many
persons could not afford to pay that, end lie was sorry to say
that there would be persons ever ready to give eridene • to the
Commissioners. But solicitors might be examined as to the
amount they had paid to counsel. Cart espondents could bo
examined as to all that hasped between them and their mer-
chants. Consignees of merchants in the same way. Trades-
men as to the affairs of their customers, when they paid their
last account, at d what was the amount, and what money was
due. There could, therefore, he no confidential trust between
the customer and the tradesman. Bankers could he called to
give evidence wi:h respect to their customers, and what the ba-
lance was in their hands. Father could be brought ageinst the
son, and the son sgainst the father ; brother against the sis er,
tee. Having said so much, he thought their Lordships, fiom
the necessity of the case, must accept the measure. He need
Lot attempt to prevail en their Lerdships to do that which
would be horde: se—even if he did net feel the necessity ( that
measure—to reject the measure, except he did so again t re-
mind them of the consequences of that rule being so erro.
neously adhered to which excluded their Lordships from Is re-
vision or correction of those most important Acts ss hich ((tame
up fiom the other House of Perham-lent. Thee. had the slower
by the conetitutton of that House, by the manner in whirl the
busizees was trsnsacted, by the maneet• in which that. House
was composed, having within its walls not only statetnien who
had adotned this country—men of their professions, if he Could
calestatevmen professional—hut the sages of law, as well as the
statesmen, judges, those who presided in the tribur.als of the
country, who were hest versed in its. lows, the House itself
beitig the highest judicial body, as well as a great branch of the
Legislature—they had the saner and the capacity to alter
arrangements, principles, and details, such as the arrangements
and eeteils of this 13111, as accurately, as stringently, as ust fully,
as fruitfully as the other House. He had no manner
of doubt but that if the treasure had been fraMed '
as he had recommended, he had no hesitation in saying he would
not say they would have made the measure better, but they
would have rendered it more palatable. This Bill, in its pre-
sent horn the immense mass on the table, from which his
Noble Friend almost shrank, was hideous in its aspect, the
arrangements were odious—
" Monstrum, horrendum, monstrum infernum, cui lumen in-
gests atiernptutn."—(Loud laughter. )
Had they been allowed to make those alterations lie hail re-
commended, the measure would have been more palatable. It
would have been relieved from some of its worst defects. He
had deemed it his duty, as a Member of that House, to take
the course he had done, and to attack the point of privilege
claimed by the other House.
Lord Ai LL BOURNE said that he fully agreed with the first
part of the Noble and Learned Lord's speech, wherein he said
that this was a question of paramount importance. It was a
question of very great importance ; it was, in his opinion, a
question of greater importance than any which had been sub-
mitted to their Lordships for many years. This was a question
which involved not only an immense difficulty, but it involved
the safety, the strength, the future power and security of this
country. He must say that it was the greatest question since
the great question of Reform in the representation in Pal ha-
went. This was a question not involving party feeling, and
ought to be considered only with respect to the well-being
of this great community. He should therefore take
leave to consider the question, and trusted it would
not he at too great a length, but he should trespass upon their
Lordships to consider this question in a general point of view.
He thought his Noble and Learned Friend found himself in an
awkward position.—(Laughter.) The Noble and Learned
Lord had altered his position since 1816, as he was then its
most active opponent; he then covered the measure with in-
sect ive, and now he came forward in another character as the
supporter of the measure. This seemed to place him in
same difficulty, and his situation seemed most inconsistent. Cn
the former occasion he heaped his invective upon it, but
he gave it his opposition, he now came forward with all his in-
vective, but he gave the Bill his support. lie (Lord Mel-
bourne) could not help thinking that this was something like
inconsistency,—( Hear, hoar.) His speech and his act were
different on that occasion, he denounced the measure as hor -
rendum nostrum—( Laughter)—and he, therefore, could not
think he was consistent in giving it his support. He ( Lord
Melbourne) had the misfortune not entirely to agree with the
Noble and Learned Lord. He could not agree with the Noble
Lord in supposing that benefits would arise from this measure.
Nor did he see the necessity which made this measure neces-
sary. The Noble and Learned Lord said that this was a tax
rendered necessary by war. The Noble and Learned Lord had
stated, and he (Lord Melbourne) entirely agreed with him,
that this was a tax only to be imposed in time of very great
emergency. This applied to any tax. 'I here ought nut to be
a duty intposed upon any articles of consumption, or any other
tax whatever, that pressed on the community at large, unless
there was an absolute necessity for the imposition. Calamities
were produced in the time of peace. The greatest calamity
which had befallen France. the revolution, was produred in a
time of peace at the time of the greatest triumphs which had
greatly humiliated this country. Calamities rere just as likely
to befal nations in a time of peace as war.—(Hear, hear.)
It had been said that the present Prime Minister did not de-
ceive the people, but he stood by and allowed the people to de-
ceive themselves. He (Lord Melbourne) did not say that that
was true, but he thought it was very well expressed, most capi-
tally eesiressede—( Laughter. ) He did rot know that it was
altogether unjustifiable to (10 so, but he thought it was tsking a
very great advantage.—( Great laughter. ) He thought this tax
was a measure which would he productive of a great deal of
good • he admitted its inequality, but at the same time he
thought that the principal objection to it was its equality.—
( Great laughter.) It was impassible to deny that it was of an
inquisitorial character, and that having to make a statement of
their pecuniary affairs was a great aggravation of the sufferings
of the people ; at the same time he must say that a strong ob-
jection to this tax was the political feeling that raged so high.
He only hoped that the Commissions would not be at all influ-
enced in their conduct by such feelings.—( Hear. ) Another
great objection to this tax was hat it would tend to drive ca-
pital out of the country, but the same objection applied to every
tax which was calculated to raise a great revenue. Other ob-
jections had been •raised. His Noble Friend said that
it would produce too much revenue—that it would go
beyond the time—but that was very easily remedied. Other
taxes could be reduced, which would restore things to their
equilibrium.—( Hear, hear.) It had been stated that Govern-
ment would be extravagant, and the year 1816 had been in-
stanced as an example which would be followed. He must say
that he did not see any great danger on that score. He feared
extravagarce, but it was ,the extravagance of the fancies of
Members of Perliament, and not of the Treasury benches,
who would be economical enough if they let them alone. He
must say that he did not feel generally the objections to this
_tax sa strongly as they were felt by other persons, but he did
riot think it a prudent or wise measure in the present stateof
the ci untry. He was well aware that the management of
the firtinces of the country during the Premiership of his Noble
Friend, Earl Grey, was not according- to strict prinei; le. They
always trusted too much to the surplus, and did not sufficiently
tax the country. But there were eases in which a departure
from principle was the right principle. He thought, then,
that the country could not bear such a measure as this; that
it was better not to go on always forcing, forcing, end so, he
thought now. He had no abjection whatever to seising a
revenue upon the importation of foreign corn, and the revenue
which might be raised from that source would be, in his opinion,
of a more certain character than Noble Lords opposite seemed
to think. Because the supply and prices fluctuated,
and they could not calculate exactly upon the amount
of revenue, he did not see why they should not
raise:as much revenue as they could on tbat article from a
fair and moderate duty.—(Hear, hear.) It did not seem to
have been denied, that a revenue could be raised from sugar,
and he '(Lord Melbourne) did say, considering the strirgent
nature of this measure, and the prejudices which prevailed
gainst it, that it was not wise and prudent to try it till they
had first tried every other measure.—( Hear, hear.) He did
not think the case sufficiently urgent tojustify such a measure ;
and he thought they were throwing away what might by and
by be very useful to them., He should say, as Solon said—
(Laughter)—when he was asked whether he had given the
Athenians the best possible laws. He said, " No; but. I have
given them the best they can hear;" and he thought that that
saying would apply to his propositions, when he held the high
otlice of Premier. He submitted these measures to the coun-
try, and he said that the country refused them ; but Noble
Leeds opposite said, " No ; they did not object to your mea-
sures, they. did not object to your principles, but they objected
to you."—(A laugh.) That had been said a thousand times,
bat he could not. admit it. But it was perfectly
competent for Nuble Lords opposite, who contended that it
was riot the measures that had been rejected by the country, to
propose them again. He could not do so, but they
might ; arid he thought it would have been a better
course to have adopted, than the one which had been
adopted. Noble Lords opposite should, however, recollect
that having once entered upon this course they could not re-
tract, they must fellow it up—once entered upon that course, to
recede would be dishonour and ruin. He said this because he
wished to guard himself. He should vote against the present
measure, but he wished to be distinctly understood that if this
course should be adopted, he should reserve to himself the tuli
right of supporting her Majesty's present Government, or any
.future Government which might happen to he in office et the
lime, which should propose. to continue this measure, or to
carry it out even to a greater extent.— (Hear, hear.)
The Duke of WELLINGTON said, whether the country in
deciding again-t these measures decided against the measures or
against the men who made them, he did not know. He sup-
ported this measure upon his own-views ; but those measures to
which the Noble Viscount had referred he thought should not
have been proposed, and ought not to be adopted. He agreed
with the Noble Lord that this measure was totally different from
that cf 1816. He considered that it was ore absolutely neces-
sary to enable Parliament to meet the deficiency in the
revenue, arid the exigencies of the country. The Noble Vise
count thought that a duty should have been laid upon corn,
sugar, end timber ; but he said little in reply to the arguments
of the inadequacy of the duty upon corn. hey wanted a cer-
tain revenue—( Hear, hear)—ail they wanted was certainty.—
( Hear. ) It was quite possible that in scree seasons no corn
might he imported, and in other seasons very large
quantities might he imported, arid in neither case could
the revenue be depended upon. Now, with reference
to the duty upon . • sugar. The Noble Lord opposite
had objected upon financial grounds to any alteration in the
duty neon foreign sugar. He (Duke of Wellington) had taken
a very simple view of the case, which was this : This Go-
vernment had entered into treaties with the Spanish Govern-
ment and other Powers for putting an end to the slave bade.
Those treaties had not been strictly. carried into 'execution,
and they knew that large quantities cf slaves were exported
from Africa up to this moment; end lie did think, that when-
ever this m untry made such a concession as to luster the duties
on foreign sugars, it would be adding a premium to slavery.
lie thought these duties ought not to be lowered, without some
security Mr putting an end to the slave trade ; particularly, as
he believed, the full demand of this kingdom might he sup-
plied from their own possessions in the tropics. Under these
circumstances, he- thought they ought to consider maturely be-
fore they lowered the duties on foreign sugar. Considering
that the increased per centage on the assessed taxes had failed,
and the Excise duties being deficient, he thought no other
course then that of the Government could have been
adopted. But if the revenue raised by this tax should
be more than vvas necessary, there could be no reason
why the surplus should not he applied to the remis-
sion of taxes that should benefit the commerce of the
country. This was the purpose :to which it was intended
to apply the overplus. The tax must be maintained as long as
it might be niece nary. Ile hoped the Government would so
maintain it, hut not one hour longer than it should be so re-
qui: cd.—( Hear, hear.) But if these new duties should be-
come productive, then they would be able to repeal this tax,
from the increase of revenue consequent upon the revival of
commeree. By former measures an attempt was made to
supply the deficiency of the revenue, but. the promise of those
nseaseres had remained unfulfilled to this day. Ile had already
I stated that the Government would maintain this tax as long as
it might. be necessary, and he would declare for himself, and he
belies ed for his colic:titles, that from nothing but necessity
should they impose it. He was aware of the nature •of the tax,
and of the objectionable powers it imposed ; and the public too,
lie believed were aware of its necessity. 'l' hey had for some
years been engaged in a set ies of operations which, it they were
not war, were as much like it as could well be, and they were
now called on to pay the bills, to the amount of ten millions
sterling. The deficiency of the Government for this year was
mere than two millions, but he trusted that this tax would
supply the deficiency in a manner that should also conduce to
the prosperity of the nation. Nothing but necessity could have
induced them to impose the tax, and he would repeat that
nothing but necessity would lead them to continue it.
The Earl of' WICKLOW rose amid loud cr;es of question.

Considering the nature of the measure, and that only four Noble
Lords had had an opportunity'of giving their opinion upon it, he
thought their Lordships might carry on the debate beyond a
quarter Nit eleven.---( Hear, hear.) He was perfectly ready
to accede to an adjournment.—(No, no.) It appeared 111dt
this was a tax that was necessary, but that should not have
been imposed could a substitute have been found for it. But
from the admissions of Members of the late Government, and
the fact of .the period of the session at which their measures
were brought forward, he came to the conclusion that this tax
was an indispensable one. It was the only one that could touch
that large portion of the wealthy of this country who
sought the pleasures or the conveniences of a fo-
reign residence; all other taxes this class of per.
sons could evade. He regretted that her Majesty's
Government had not extended its provisions to Ireland. He
regretted this, not from any particular passion for paying
taxes, but because he thought it was to be regretted that Ire-
land should not bear her just portion of the burdens of the em-
pire. They must now take the Bill as it was, and he was
anxious to learn from the Government how its provisions ;sere
to apply to that country at all ? He found that all persons who
resided six months of the 3ear in England, or Members of Per-
il:intent who resided here during the session of Parliament, and
for forty days before and forty days after, were exempted. hut
how did this act se all regard to Irish proprietors residiers
abroad ? Why, it was a bonus to them to reside abroad'.
The Irish funds not being taxed, and yet being part and parcel
of the funds of this country, an English fundholder coud evade
the tax by transferring into the Irish funds. On the other
hand, cases might arise in which an Irish fundholder
residing in this country might be obliged to pay double. lie,
therefore regretted that the tax had not been directly extended
to Irelard. He bel erred that a large portion of the wealth of
Ireland was spent in this country and Ireland would not get
credit for her real share in the contribution.
The Earl of CLARENDON would occupy the House but
a very short time ; yet there had been some charges age nst
the late Government, which he hoped the House would allow
him to remark upon briefly. He was glad to observe that the
embarrassed state of the finances was not attributed to the mis-
management of the late Government. The scheme of the late
Government was to increase consumption, and thereby to aug-
ment the revenue. Their first treasure respected corn, and
he was glad to see that the ',resent Government commenced
their scheme with the same item.—( Cheers.) With respect to
sugar, the estimates of the late Government were never
disputed. The Budget of his Right Honourable Friend was
not, therefore, the contemptible thing that it had been de-
scribed. It was not conceived with recklesness, nor brought
forward without an intention of carrying it into effect. Thee
was no more doubt then than in March, 1842, that the system
of protection by which our country was so long oppressed must
be broken down. He was glad that the present Government
had come into power.—( Cheers.) He was glad, because no
measures of general utility could have been carried by the 1 to
Goverment in the face of an opposition which now supported
the same measures, and asserted upon the hustings, and in the
other Houses of Parliament, that they voted, as the supporters
of the Noble Duke opposite voted in 1829, against
their consciences, to keep their party in power. It
appeared to him that the scheme of the Government was
one which would drive industry into unnatural channels,
and drive it from those in which it had formerly flowed. He
was convinced that the new Corn-laws would afford no benefit
to the country ; whilst by the new tariff most of the articles of
general consumption were left untouched. It was impossible
to regard the tariff as a compensation for the Income-tax. 'I he
necessity for this measure might easily have been obviated by
acceding to the alteration in the sugar duties, which was pro-
posed by the late Government. The policy of this country on
the subject of the slave trade was carefully watched by
every country in Europe ; they were watching
eagerly for the financial, caring little for the phi-
lanthropic results of it ; and if they found that we de-
rived no pecuniary advantage, they would have little induce-
ment to emancipate their slaves.—( Hear, hear.) 'fhe only
plan of putting an effectual stop to slavery, was to show that
sugar and other articles could be produced cheaper by free la-
bour than slave labour. If they proved to the world that their
experiment had failed, they would give a greater impetus than
had ever been given before to slavery and the slave trade. 111
conclusion, he would ask the House whether it was proper,
having refused to relieve the country, by means of an altera-
tion in the sugar duties, to impose upon the people a tax of so
inquieitorial a character as that under consideration?
Lord Fitzgerald, Lord Melbourne, Lord Brougham, and the
Earl of Clarendon explained,
Lord WHA RNCLIFFE said he had thought, up to the
time when the Noble Earl (the Earl of Clarendon) had risen,
he had never heard a debate conducted with so little party
spirit. The Noble Earl stated that they had adopted the mea-
sures cf the late Government. He denied that such was the
case. When the budget was proposed last year, they did not
deny that it would be a benefit to relieve commerce from its r e-
strictions ; but they stated that those who brought forward the
measures of relief were not fit persons to carry them into exe-
cution. Why? Because they had lost the confidence of both
Houses ; because they were occasionally in a minority ; because
they had thrown themselves on the support of individuals who
declared that they were squeezable.—( Hear, hear.) In
his opinion there could not be a worse Government than one
which did not possess the confidence of the country —( Hear.)
The mode of proceeding by Noble Lords opposite was to make
experiments. Sugar was one, corn was another, and timber
was a third. What the present Government said was, The
country has a debt to pay—it has a deficiency to make up; be-
fore you try experiments make up that deficiency. In the case
in which they were placed, the Income-tax was
the most suited to the emergency. They were
satisfied that the propositions of the late Government were
entirely failures. With respect to corn, which had been al-
luded to by the Noble Marquis, the Noble Marquis said they
could have raised 500,0001. He (Lord Wharncliffe) did not
doubt this he might have made 1,100,0001. ; but then this
was of all taxes the least to be depended upon. It wholly de-
pended on the seasons and the weather. Now with respect to sugar,
What they said with respect to slavery was, that if, in the pre-
sent state of slavery they imported a large quantity of sugar
from foreign countries, they gave a great encouragement to
slavery. They must recollect that there were other places
which produced sugar besides the West Indies ; there was the
sugar from the East Indies, which was not slave-grown. He
fully believed that the measures they had proposed were calcu-
lated to benefit the country at large; and finding the state of
the country was as they found it, they would have been blame-
able indeed if they had not brought them forward.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE thought there had berm
great waste of time by the party on the opposite side. He
would not go into the question of the Income-tax then, as there
would be another opportunity of doing so.
Lord LYTTELTON could not bring himself to oppose this
tax, on the ground that it was adequate to meet the deficiency,
without pressing on the working classes.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE, in reply, said, that as he
had been accused of being an uncompromising opponent to the
Income-tax, he begged to say that he did not think there were
any circumstances justifying an Income-tax. There were
such circumstances, but they did not consist in a deficiency
of 2,500,0001. He had never said that slavery ought not to be
a constant subject of solicitude ; what he had said was, that, on
the subject of the sugar trade negotiations for the suppression of
slavery were contracts on paper, and as such were waste paper,
and would ebtainnothing for the unhappy people on the coasts
of Africa.
The Earl of RIPON explained. He had stated that the
whole of the plan was erroneous, and justified him in calling
upon the House to testify their want of confidence in the Go-
vernment.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the House
divided on the amendment, when there appeared—
Contents ..
Non-Contents
Majority against the amendment — 60
On our entrance into the gallery the Marquis of CLANRI-
CARDE was on his legs, and moved the adjournment of the
debate till; Tuesday, amidst loud cries of " Go on, go on," and
Question, question."
Lord KINNAIRD said that he understood the Noble Duke
to say that there should be a separate debate on the third read-
hag.—(" No, no." from the Duke of Wellington.)
The Duke of WELLINGTON said he could not govern
the debates of the House. What he said was, that the Noble
Lord might Celiver his sentiments, but he did not say that a
debate was to take place.
The Earl of RADNOR did not understand the Noble Duke
to say that there should be a debate on the third reading.
The Duke of WELLINGTON had certainly explained him-
self clearly on the psi. t, though he might have been misunder-
stood by the ;Noble Lord.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said if his motion
were resisted he should certainly take the sense cf
the House upon the subject. This Rill had been hurried
through the House in a most unprecedented manner ;
the discussion had been taken upon the merits of the financial
measures (tithe Government generally compared with those of
the late Ministry, and as they could not discuss the third reeds '
ing of the Bill at that late hour, he should, for the sake of de-
cency, press for a division upon his motion.
The Duke of WELLINGTON contended that clear and
sufficient notice had been given of the third reading.
'fhe Earlof RADN( eR supported the adjournment.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY could not see any rea-
son for such anxiety for deterring the third reading.
The Earl of RIPON said- that the object had been already
discussed at great length ; and he did not. see why the Bel
should rot be read a third time that evening.
The Earl of WICKLOW hoped that the Noble Duke would
accede to the proposal for an adjournment of the discussion.
There were, it appeared, many Noble Lords who were still
anxious to address the House on the subject: and under those
circumstances he did not wish that the debate should be at
once brought to a conclusion.
Viscount MELBOURNE would remind their Lordships that
a majority, however powerful, was not omnipotent on a question
of adjournment. He had often been made aware of that by
his experience in another place.
The Duke of WELLINGTON said he was in the hands of
the House ; but he could see no reason why they shout t net
immediately come to a decision in conformity with the under-
standing which had beers come to on a former occasion.
The Duke of NEWCASTLE said he would take every op-
portunity of voting against the Bill.
The question having then been put that the debate should be
adjourned until Tuesday next, the House divided; but we were
unable to ascertain the numbers on the division. The motion
for an adjournment, however, was understood to have been lost
by a large majority.
On our return to the gallery we found Lord DENMAN
stating that he should vote against the Bill on every stage, and
objecting to the House preceeding with the Bill at that hour.
The iJuke of WELLINGTON said it would be very incon-
venient if the Bill did not pass that night. The motion had
been postponed from Thursday to Friday to suit the conveni-
ence of Noble Lords, and he trusted the Bill would be passed.
Lord RAI:NOR suggested that if the Bill were proceeded
with, either then or on Monday, no inconvenience would arise.
The Duke of WELLINGI ON said he was not in the habit
of stating what he did not. believe to be true. He repeated
that great inconvenience would result if the Bill did not pass
that night.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE said he thought it was
too much to ask the House to pars the Bill at that hour.
Lord CAMPBELL said in the other House it was a mat-
ter of course to adjourn the debate upon the statement that
there were several Hon. Members who wished to deliver their
sentiments, and he dud not see why there should be one 'ride
in that assembly and another rule in the other. tic thoUght
that to force on the third reading of the Bill without giv-
ing an opportunity of further discussion, would not tend to
raise the character of that House.
Lord FITZGERALD considered that the principle of the
Bill had that evening been fully discussed-. he would
leave it to the public to decide whether the debate of
to-night hail not been substantially on the merits of the Bill
To whom was the lateness of the hour to be imputed—to whom
was the loss of time to be attributed? Had Lc, time been lost
by the motion for adjournment—had 'no time been lost by the
call for proxies on the motion? He protested against the as-
sertion that the had been improperly forced forward. It
had been postponed this night se'noight, nut of courtesy to a
Noble Marquis. He would leave it for their Lordships to de-
cide if this motion for adjournment was calculated to add to the
dignity of the House in the eyes of the country.
The Earl of RADNOR did not impute it as a fault to any
body that the Bill had been repeatedly put off. The postpone-
ments had been occasioned by the illness of his Noble Friend.
and of the Noble Earl opposite. The debate on the amend-
ment of the Noble Marquis had lasted -until one o'clock in the
morning They had had no discussion on the principle of the
Bill, and he would ask if it was decorous that they should enter
upon that discussion at half-past two o'clock in the morning?
The Duke of WELLINGTON explained.
Lord CAMPBELL did not impute any blame to any person

for what had occurred, but he thought that if it were
forced on at this hour, b'aine certainly would be imputable to
tho.e who forced it forward.

Lord REDESDALE recollected that the divi‘ion on the
Reform Biil had taken place at eight o'clock in the morning,
so that. they had fire urs good yet for debating.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE said it was very necessary to pas.
this Bill at once, as there Isere arrangements entereit into at
the Bank for the 14th of July.
The question that the &hate be adjourned was then put,
and the House divided, when the motion tot adjournment was
negatived, but we were unable to tbtain the numbers.
On our return to the gellery,
The Earl of RADNOR was on his legs, and moved the ad-
jourment s f the House.

- Lord KENYON said he (lid not see why the Noble Earl
should persevere in moving the adjournment. If he wished to
speak on the third rt ading he had an opportunity of doing so
two hours ago. The only object of the Noble Earl was to delay
a Bill which it had been declared by the first Minister of the
Crown in that House, would be seriously inconvenient to the
public if not passe.l.—(Hear. hear.) He would put it to the
Noble Lord if it was decent to persevere ?
The Earl of RADNOR would tell the Noble Load can-
didly that he d d think it decent to persevere ; aid further,
that it would be indecent to go to the third reading of the 1411
at such an hour in the morning. He did not shrink because
he thought the adjournment would be acceded to.
After a few observations from Lord Fitzgerald, the Marquis
of Clanricarde, arid Lord Campbell, the debate was postponed
till Tuesday, and the House adjourned at Three o'Clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, June 16.
The SPEAKER took the Chair at Four o'Clock.
POOR-LAWS.
Mr. ROCHE presented a petition from Middleton, in
the county of Cork, against the operation of the Poor-
laws.

Mr. BRAMSTON presented a petition from West
Ham. prayingfor the discontinuance of the employment of
Assistant Poor-law Commissioners.

Sir B. HALL presented a petition from the pari,,h cf
Maryiebone against the Poor-laws ; also another from
St. Pancras to the same effi,ct.

WITNESSES OATHS.
•
Dr. BOWRING presented a petition from Warrington
against the practice of making oaths.
CHURCH OF SCOTLAND.
Mr. F. MAL'LE presented a petition from the county
of Roxburgh against the system of Church patronage.
MERSEY CONSERVANCY BILL.
Lord SANDON moved that the Committee on the
Mersey Conservancy Bill have leave to sit and proceed
on Monday.
Sir T. ACLAND seconded the motion.
Mr. GREE NE opposed the appointment of Monday, and
proposed Wednesday as being more just to the parties.
After a short conversation,
Lord SANDON consented to alter his motion to
Wednesday.
The motion was then agreed to.
POOR-LAWS.
Captain PECHELL presented a petition, agreed to at a
public meeting in Brighton, against the new Poor-law.
Mr. S. CRAWFORD presented a petition from the
Guardians of the Rochdale Union, to the same effect.
Colonel ,T. WOOD presented a petition from the
Guardians of the Whitechapel Union, to the same effect.
Mr. S. WORTLEY presented a petition from a union
in Warwickshire against the New Poor-law.
Lord ASHLEY presented three petitions from Bolton,
Hull, and Rochdale, in favour of the Mines and Collieries
Bill.

Sir W. JAMES presented a petition in favour of a
Ten Hours Factory Bill.
NOTICES OF MOTION.—POOR-LAWS.
Mr. M. GIBSON gave notice that, on going into Com-
mittee on the Poor-Law Bill, he Would move an instruc-
tion to the Committee relative to certain clauses of
the Bill.

Sir ROBERT PEEL said, although he could sae
melting as to the nettle of cenducting the inquirew
lied nit lteeitetien in stating that her Majesty's G°Yele
in. at did intend to inquire into the subject.
REGISTRATION OF VOTERS,
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE wished to ask the Right 11.
liantnet, the Secretary of State for the Home Pel44
mint, whetla r it was the intention of the Governst
to brie g forward any utensil, e in t e course of the rr,
sent Sessioe with respect to the registration of voters?
Sir J. GRAHAM said lie would, on Monday ne
give an answer to the question.
010
Lord .T. ISUSSELL inquired whether the Govern _ to
intended to bring fin-ward any measure with respect
the registration of voters in Ireland ?
bete
Sir it. PEEL said he thouget it would be much.e .
first to apply themselves to the subject of English rem
truth:m—(li( ar, hear, from the Opposition.) 1,1,
In answer to a question from Mr. M. O'FERRAlsli'tt
Sir R. PEEL said if' they were unable to proceeal La
the Irish Drainage Bill on Wednesday, there ho.ln"
no objection to remise,; an curly day subsequently.,
SOU THA M I."I'ON' ELECTION. seeto
Mr. W. O. STANLEY said he would then proceedd.
nominate the Select Committee to inquire into theere,7,
ticulars of the Southampton Election Committeee:.;
Mr. Pendarves, Mr. Shiel, Lord Marsham, Lord BesPe
tons Mr. Evans, Mr. Vesey, and Mr. Stewart Wortita
Mr. LIDDELL said he regretted to take up the it
of the House on any subject connected. with himself. tel
he could not help adverting to a circumstance conird
with the Committee appointed by the Hon. and LOIO
'Member fin. Cork. He (Mr. Liddell) came dosi!ai
breakfast that morning, and for the first time }Wier
that he had been appointed by the Hon. Meirint,
for Cork On a Committee of a shnilar
to,
turn to that . just moved for by the lieeore
able Member. That wits the first intimation De',
ceived of the intention of the lion. and Learned Genel
man of placing his name on the list. Nuw, lie .her-ef
he could not be charged with neglecting the husinef°, ts
the house, but he really thought it was only tires
any Hon. Member, before he was called uPOPaete
give his time and attention to a soul se of proc7,
ing of somewhat large character—for they
.I'lo
from experience that Irish election questions
vvereo
likely to be of a moment's duration—it was but fair I;et
some intimation should be given to the Hon. Me!„00
who was to be appointed. He had already served'
1 one Election Committee, and foreseeing that
e i
hf
motion would be brought on, he sent in to. 10
Clerk of Committees an intimation that he expecgtiy
be exempt from service of a similar character durlogeself
course of the present session. He therefore hessu
leave to decline, with all deference to the :ion.,
Learned Gentleman, his attendance upon the Contrane
Mr. HUME said, that he believed the name of I_:a
, lion. Gentleman was suggested to his Honourable i
Learned Friend, NNho was not in his place, by the iii6(7iol
lion. Gentleman opposite. He believed his llon.?'!„,
Learned Friend had nothing to do with giving the Pt!,
and no blame, if !lame there was, could attach to:P7
POOR-LAW BILL.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM, in rising to move the 171,t
of the Day for the second reading of the Poor-laW.
said, that as he had already explained to the H° e.
principles on which this measure rested, he trustee}eis
House would excuse him for not again going over 2
same ground, and he would, therefore, content bi 7
with moving that this Bill be read a second time.
GOLD COINAGE.
Mr. C. BULLER said, lie did not wish to opplele,
Order of the Day being read on any ground cuetaer-t4O
with the Poor-law, of which he was a supporter, boi
id
wished to call the attention of' the House, to a subjef„l
importance, namely, the recent conduct of Govern,
with regard to gold coin. Be knew that, aceordia)
the new rules, and he allowed they were wise 00'0
eas not admissible for him to make any ansetabnoti
on the Orders of the Day which was not conate.
with the subject, but he might move that anotleartej
be read in its stead, and he should move that tl to Ur'`
of the Day for going into a Committee of. sivi
be now taken. Be did not wish to '. 6-, 7''
thing ehich would interfere with the egitire-1l
public business, but the subject to which hie, Vi. ':4l
is
bi
to call the attention of the House was. 004
urgent importance, and had occupied more2i"l
the attention of people out of doors, as being ?On"
and pressing grievance, than any other subiriai
(Hear, hear)—and it was rather discreditable '',(4) Alf
House, that the question had not been air
discussed, and that the Government shot*" 1
their own authority be allowed to adopt the prose e. A
they had without that House discussing the propriek,
Ile informed the Right Hon. Gentleman, the Chan f e.,e
of the Exchequer, of his Intention to bring this s'/ - !
under the consideration of the House, who informs 4,„0
that he was not prepared to give any infornnii!
t
on the subject. He did not NViSil to be ,pre.o'-'d
from bringing forward a subject of such imporo%?'
but if no obstacles were interposed, he had no olejer
to bring it for Ward on Monday • but if otherwi, ,
should proceed with it now. 'lt would be mi / i',
a mockery of the rules if they were made use 'oe 0
prevent a matter of such importance being disio•
~
_.
Therefore if the Right Hon. Gentleman wished hitsSlie
i
to go on with the subject till Monday he would, •enje
• the question—(Cries of " Go on")—otherwise lie ifvso,7*
oppose the order of the day till this subject wag WAraj'
under discussion. • eera Sir R. PEEL said, that the Hon. Gentleman hat Li :
given notice of bringing on this subject. -It had P4i.,':;
pet fectly open, yesterday, to call the attention 0 Ijiieil
House to the subject, when he could have given nt Vie
The Honourable Gentleman had not dune so, s' 's
. . , is
on that ground he (Sir Robert Peel) decid
objected to the Hon. Gentleman's proeee. oat!.
with the matter now. It was a thing quite contrar f,c
010,
the (tours° usually pursued. With respect to Morli....clt.
A
it could on that day be determined whether the etile:,
sought to be now pursued was in conformity wit '
. „ .
rules of the Hous:. t
• bea,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER 005 to)
to state what had occurred. About two or three Poinll4
ago, the Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. C. Buller) Pir)`=
axcl
come over to him (the Chancellor of the Extz,e,
and mentioned that he meant to move another Ords reii37o •.,
Day than that for the second reading of the Poor-
Aniendmeite Bill, with a view to bringing under ! diSCIlge
oe -.
sion the subject of the gold coinage. He (the Chance 4
of the Exchequer) told the Hon. Gentleman that be •to
not come down to the House with a view to
.11000
that subject discussed, consequently that be CO it
give but very imperfect information on the matter. t,
~,:
was Nirtually a breach of the Orders of the House' tO 0 4%
• tempt to introduce this discussion on the OrderoftherLs4
• Mr. C. BLLLER had distinctly stated in the 0i7,,i.:,
mencement of his remarks, that if he would he 81101,11, 4';,,
to bring the question forward on Monday, he was ready
to put it off till that day. The reason he had not g"t
7,6„;
notice, was because it was customary to give 11 .t.„•,
tice of amendments, but his intention was simply to • •:
oppose the Order of the tiny. He would now give vacl
se
that un Monday next he should bring the subject forsver( e''
POOR-LAWS. , ..
The Order of the Day was then read for the serer , '':
reading 01 :he Poor-law Amendment Bi.l, when .
ii, ee:
Colonel WOOD presented a petition against the gent i -.
rat principle of the Bill.
Captain PECHELL presented a petition to the s".e,,e't
effect from Brighton. The Hon. Member also r. 'LA ,
sented a petition from the Guardians of the Poor; 0- es,
parish of Brighton against the Bill. Also petitions, fqe .
Warrington and other places against the clause ti' s
Bill abolishing the Gilbert Unions.
Mr. LEADER presented a petition from the 'pate's
of St. James, Westminster, against the Bill.
George. :SI
Mr. B. WOOD presented a petition from St. '
the Martyr, Southwark. against the Bill. - e
On the motion for the second reading of the I fill bei°g''Y''
read,
Mr. S. CRAWFORD rose to move that the B ill be re.d
a second time that day th ce months. From tb e 1191 e,
made by the large number of M. mbere who titee ,h
gge
ted `'e
House, it was impossible to catch the Hon. ) lathe 'it,-.''a
observations for some mi utes. In the first 1 senteWee, s,
that could be caught, he was referring to . the (Poe ' Sas one of the most vital to • the let
,_,,1
rests of the nation which could cot ne °eon: ; t
..discussion. He should, therefore, beg tle atteo"o•''l
of the House while he endeavoured to ma!te. out aceio .: •:"-t"
for the motion of which lie had given not ce. 'Igoe:::
,; :
the Right Hon. Baronet, the Secretary for tht Home at ::' :', r .
pertinent, introduced the Bill into the House, Is ereferre oe . ', >
certain extracts from the speech of Lord 1 itsoughs°.to.
the occasion of his introducing the measure .s°
.i f..;
the House of Lords. • Having done so,he( to ' 1 Sharman Crawford) was at liberty t o refer 0 ~
-
other extracts from the same speech, in ordae!„rd,
, show what were the sentiments of the : goble no . '
The Right Hon. Baronet had quoted these pa reglllieg
from the Noble Lord's speech, for the purist)! ie. orshe%ro
1 that the Commission was not appointed in or ter t,,,prl be
i uniformity in the administration of the Poor-law..
1,. - :-,
Hon. Member then read two passages from the scais
referred to.) He had thus shown, upo I
et bf,,
high authority, what was the object contempl ttejeg. ejli
the Bill. But the Bill itself did not attain that
id
The last Report of the Commissioners express. Por
different sentiments, anti eery different d iteeeser
nations, from those made use of in - their ccoeld
Reports. It was necessary, then, that he :sacarys
briefly refer to the back Reports of the v for ;
missioners to show what were their opinith 0 the
inerly of the mode of administering relief Pore
Seventh Annual Report, page 42, the Commi isi? to A
stated that a.l their proceedings had been dire( teta
faithful execution of the designs of the Leg stun.laa,o
more perticu arty as regarded their admit); SP':ioo
of relief ; and they had came to the co eall'opt-
that it would be desirable to withdraw t 11'
_ore
door relief, front able-bodied people ; and there 'do 'H,
only seven cases in which exceptions were made, s
erilicedt .
the whole of these cases the Commissioners rex- 1" de' ::
r.nd explained the reason which induced them , tourer
part front the rule they had laid down. In eve- r: '
vi, 0
instance, the Commiss;oners insisted that their i i e`iiiei-
before expressed, should be carried out without it 00' ate- e's
tuition or restriction ; and in a certain manufactu rlyed,
trite where the operatives were only partially et pyi thew
the guardians, by their advice, would not aff. 0...,,0e5e.
any relief, except they consented to enter the woe k
.'., .
But there were cases of a still more extraordi fairy b°
titre, and to these the attention of the House sl Pit aids.
directed. (The Hon. Member then read a statent en oak
respect to the Bridgewater Union.) No v::oeerS,
having been the proceedings of the Commi Se; Ile
. ,
lie would ask if the system were right ?---(fiee rb'i that
now cunt() to the Eighth Report. It ens remark, t , %ell
there were views expresecd in this Be? 'or cei in
dali.rent from ally that had been exPri, jet; . se" t
the previous ones on the subject of out-door re-
~,,, Os, - ;:±
he • thought the Commissioners should explain v gib)' 4111(1 . 'l
'Report diMred front any other. It the Com mission, rera tics
that their former recedents ne re wrong let t' !..so- r !)e.
knoe ledge themselves in error, but let not the tv . stote . ~
cetreed. It was a great evil in the
of the law, that, there was no fixed
; ;ITsi's '176(1 the
r
In the case of Bridgewater the Commissioners
_,_fi no
blame on the guardians. If' neither the Como sr‘ A
preset,
.%! .hio..