The Sun.
London, England, 1827-02-21 00:00:00

CHURCH LANDS IN CANADA.

Mr. W. HORTON moved, pursuant to notice,
for leave to bring in a Bill, authorising the disposal of a portion
of those lands called the Clergy Reserves, in Upper and Lover
Canada; a contract for the sale of those same lands with the Ca-
nada ComPeny having recently been broken off.
Mr. STANLEY believed that there would be but
re' reeling throughout the Canadas with respect to this question ;
%r all parties agreed that the existence of the clergy lands, in their
present uncultivated state, was a serious obstacle to improvement
in the colony.
Mr. HUME supported the motion.
Mr. LOMBE said a few words, which did not
reach the gallery. _

Mr. il4. 14ORTON said that measures would
be taken to have road. and other improvements made and kept up
through those parts of the reserved lands which still remained in
the holding of the clergy.

In reply to-a question front Mr. Baring,
Mr. HORTON said, that the church property
was secured by the Canada Act of 1791, which appropriated one
seventh of it in the manner he had stated.

Mr. BARING had the strongest objections to this
appropriation of land in Canada, for the Church of England. He
concurred, howeTer, in the expediency of disposing of these re-
served lands in the manner -now proposed.

M. W. HORTON explained, that whether this
mode of appropriation of lands by the act of 1791, -was politic
or not, still it was the law. But all he proposed was a cer-
tain alienation of the church lands, for the general improvement ;
so that, as far as he went,' he was deviating from the provision
which the Hon. Member deemed objectionable, and rather acting
in the spirit of his suggestion.
Mr. WARBURTON recommended, that instead
of these appropriations of land for -Church purposes in Canada, en
investment should take place to promote education in these wild
districts. .

Mr. STANLEY begged it to be understood, that
la giving his unqualified support to the measure of the Hon. Gen-
t!ernan (Mr. Horton), he was by no means insensible to the ab-
surd provisions of the Canada Act of 1791, which had endeavour-
ed to establish a church where he thought it never could be esta-
blished. The present measure would not, however, impede the
revision of the former Act, and he hoped it would take place.
Mr. N. CALVERT said a few words, which were
not heard in the Gallery.
Mr. Alderman WA I TH M AN complained -strongly
"f the Stock Companies which had been established for colo-
nization, and pointed. out how fatally they bad deceived indivi-
duals, who had under their auspices gone to Colombia.
Mr. W. HORTON said, that a general declama-
t:en against these companies had nothing to do with the question
before the House.

Mr. DAWSON (of Louth) said that there were
two great blunders in'the act of 1791; one vvas the appropriation
of a provision for a clergy, before they had sought to provide any
kind of congregation ; and, the other was the fixing of land in
,c.tiesiailtieal ;hands, to the iniury of the land iteelt. How were
improvements 4o be effected-in these bad grants? all commissions
for that pi:*pose would only raise up a system of jobbing. The
Bishop's funds, is Ireland, were
i always the because the
shortneaa of their leases forbad,l naprovemeni:. The same evil
would be fotmd in Canada, utiles* longer leases and better encou-
ragement were given.
Leave was then given to bring in a Bill to authorise the alien-
ation of a part of the clergy reserves in Upper Canada.

HALF-PAY OFFICERS.:
Mr. HUMt role to britig 'o Yard- the motion of
which he Itsd given notice ; it was in fact a continuation of the
information which he had obtained last session, namely, returns
of the number of officers of the army on full and on half-pay ; also
the number of first couimisldons, and promotions in the last
year in the army. His great object was to allow that, a great
saving,Might be obtained by a more economical arrangement in
this brauehrof the public service. The Hon. MeMber then moved
for a return of the number of pfomotions fror:. the 25th January,
1826, to' the. 25th Jan:. 1827, distinguishing the rank, and the
number of officers on whole and on half-pay.
Loid PALMERSTON wished to say a few
words in explanation of the observations of the Hon. Member
c'PPosit4-: The only case in which a clew individual seas put
into 4eesvice, was when there were vacant ensigncies to be
disposed,of without purchase. These wzre very few in number,
and wet-.geuerally given to the relatives of officers in the army,
or to other,, who had similar claims. He wor '1 also take this
opportunity of explaining, that the observation which lie lately
made respecting the disinclination of half-pay officers to return
to spay , was not intended to refer to officer* of high rank.
That meat officers bf high rank would gladly be employed, and
•;..m, there were IFectuent applications to that effect could not be
‘loubted. Al! that he intruded to convey was, that among officers
,f lower rink there was not unfrequently a disinclination to be put
on full-pay. •
Mr. MIME found from papers which had been
141 id on the table of that House, that in the last year 412 persons
had been admitted to commissions without purchase, and he con-
tended that these were so many pensioners.
The „ratio:, was then put, and agreed to.
Mr. HUME said, that his motive in moving for
these returns was merely to obtain a continuation of the papers
which had been laid upon the table during the last Session. The
Average of promotiors during the last ten years was 677 ; and he
should now move for " a return of the total number of gentlemen
who had received fivat commissions in regiments of cavalry and
Foot Guards, distinguishing the rank of each, and whether grant-

ed 1)3: purchase or without, from the F!iyth of January, 1526, tip
the 25th of January, 1527."
The motion was then put and agreed to.
Mr. HUME then moved for " a return of the nurn-

4.4berrof commissions which had' become vacant by death; 'removal,
i!kflesignation, distinguishing. the rank of each, and,those.which
had been filled•up'from' the half-pay, froth .theiJsth7.6f,..Tinuary,
SIS 26, to the of January, 1827.:—Agreecifew
4• • COMAIITTEES;.(//:"; PRIVATE, BILLS._
BRANSIIY COOPER rose, pursuant Co the
;'notice which he bad given, to-move a resolution against adding
,ioices" to committees on private bills. Ile should submit to
,Ixt.toti-House the-fidloniug.resolUtion Resolved, thit'.-after 8114
omioittee on petition for, or en private bills, has been ap inter,
i.accoziding tO-theneW list of counties, individual Members ma} be
I wed tlkereto'oit,lepezial;apiilicaticrmln-th/t Ifoc and fist no-.
7kivitimber 1% aye-Ally- Yeast' ortdny-kuoll-eurnutittee,- exrciit thoQ
gissally inckiaed in the new.ilist, .er subsequently added by perinis..
gun of the House.

Mr. MUNDY seconded the motion.
After a conversation between the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
Mr. Wynn, and Mr. Caleraft, the motion was agreed N.

CANADA.

Mr. HL' CIE said,' that his attention had been
again called to this subject from the fact that, of the persons who
had emigrated to Canada, nut more than OW:, or one and a halt;
of the total number had been able to overcome the impedimenta
which stood in the way of settling there. He should submit to
the Hon. Gentleman opposite how far it would be advisable to pre-
pare, at the Colonial-office or elsewhere, books or diagrams of
the districts on which it wls prop ,!3A that emicrants should
settle. The Honourable Member concluded by moving, that an ad-
dress be presented to his Majesty for copies of the regulations
lately adopted with respect to the grants of land in Canada, with
the specific rates of fees, and the forms requisite on making
such grants, together with an account of the lands sold to
the Canada Company, the amount of money received, and
to be received of them, and how disposed of. Also a list of
the sales which had been made in the last year, and the number
of acres, the names of the purchasers, the amount of money re-
ceived, and stated to he received by the public for the sale of such
lands.

Mr. W. HORTON was under some difficulty as
to answering the questions which had been raised by the Hon.
Member, and wished to do so at some other opportunity.
The question was then put, when
Mr. HUME begged leave to withdraw the last
part of his motion. The motion thus altered, was then carried
without a division.

SUPPLY.
On the Report of the Committee of Supply on the Army Esti •
mates being brought up,
Mr. HUME seeing the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer in his place, wished to ask him whether the estimates as they
stood, were meant to include all the expences of the expedition to
Portugal, or whether he intended to propose some addition at a
future opportunity? He thought it was time for the Right Hon.
Gentleman ti be looking about for the ways and means with which
to pay the estimates.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
said, that it was impossible for him at this moment to say whether
he should propose to the House that the ad•litional expencas in-
curred by the expedition of Portugal should be defrayed by
an addition to the Army Extraordinaries, or by means of a se-
parate vote. In whatever shape it might be presented, he did
nut think it would he so formidable as the Hon. Member seemad
to think.

On the first resolution being read,
Mr. WARBURTON wished to know whetikr
all the expence of the Portuguese expedition would be tie-
frayed by this country, or any part by Portugal, and if so,
what part ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
said, that this Government was not to pay the expence of the sub-
sistence and the charges for barracks of the troops in Portugal,
which were to be defrayed by the Government of that country.
The resolution was then put, and carried.
On the resolution fora grant to the Royal Military Colleges,

Mr. HUME objected to the great expence incurred
in the education of young men for the army at the various mili-
tary Colleges, which bore no proportion to the number of cadets.
In the last year only 38 cadets who had been educated at the mi-
litary colleges had entered the army, and he believed thai ;or some
year► there had not been more than ten young men at Woolwich.
Mr. Secretary PEEL thought it was necessary that
officers should be educated in such a manner as would qualify them
for entering the service. The Honourable Member was mistaken
in supposing that only 38 cadets had been educated ; for in time
of peace 200, and in war 400, were educated at these colleges.
Mr. MABERLY admitted that it was necessary
our officers should be properly educated, but he thought this ought
to be at the charge of their friends. He had no doubt that
10,000/. a year might be saved if the matter were referred to a
Committee. _

Mr. D. W. HARVEY wished, that not only this
branch, but the whole of the estimates, should be referred to a
Committee, with a view to public economy.
Mr. PEEL said the measure suggested by the
Honourable Member had been adopted in 1517, when the scale
of this part of our expenditure was fixed.
Mr. D. W. HARVEY thought that it would be
serviceable to the country if such a Committee were to be ap-
pointed every seven years.
Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN remonstrated
against the excessive expenditure on account of the military esta-
blishments of the country.
' Mi. LOMBE rose, but, from the situation which
the Hon. Member had taken under the gallery at tie opposition
side of the House, his observations were not distinctly -heard
where we sat. The Honourable Gentleman went over various
items of 'the Army Estimates, and complained generally of the
Want of explanation which was visible in the accounts.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
explained. The Honourable Gentleman could not be aware that
the votes to which he had alluded had already passed the House.
Had the Honourable Member stated his objections to those -votes
as they were separately proposed, he would have been answered at
the time, for he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was quite
sure that there was no disinclination on the part of his Noble
Friend (Lord Palmerston) to afford any information on the
subject.
Mr. LOMBE explained. .
Lord HOTHAM defended the household troops
front the observations of the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Lombe):
Mr. MONCIC said, that the present vote was the
most objectionable which the present estimates contained.
The vote was then passed. .
On the grant being propoted of 36,272/. for maintaining his
Majesty's Garrisons at home and abroad, for the year 1827,

Mr. HUME opposed this vote several years ago,
and the time that had since elapsed had more and more strongly.
convinced him of the necessity of adopting some salutary measure.
of reform, not only in this particular vote, but with re-
gard to others. He would show that' in this estimate
of 86,2721., the country was called upon to pay for a staff
in places where no garrisons existed. - In abort, he meant to
show that the present vote was for the maintenance of a nest
of sinecures. When this grant was proposed to the House in
the first instance by the Noble Lord, the Secretary at War, he said
that his Majesty wished to have it in his power to bestow on
officers who had distinguished themselves in the service of the
country the appointments to the garrisons at home and abroad as
a reward for public conduct. If that feeling had been acted upon
in the present-instance, he (Mr. Hume) would not have felt it his
duty-to rise and oppose this vote, but he knew that the opposite
policy had been pursued with regard to it, and he believed it to
be an undoubted fact, that persons were appointed to those gar-
rison situations no better qualified than he was to fill a military
station. When he lately passed through Berwick there was not a
gun in the garrison, the cause of which he (Mr. Hume) under-
stood to be this :—When the Radicals were making a noise in the
country threatening the destruction of property and what not,
the Governor of Berwick was so alarmed lest the guns of the
garrison should fall into their hands, that he actually sent
the guns from the place. Every gun in the garrison was
swept away, but the Governor himself remained.—(A laugh.)—
And what did this fear on the part of the Governor arise
from ? Because the people were oppressed beyond their
means. It was nothing but mismanagement on the part of
the. Government of a country that ever tempted its people to
rebel. The effect attended upon the cause. The sum required
fur the garrisons in Great Britain, for 1827, he found, amounted
to 03,18 1 1. The Governor of Berwick, to whom he had before al-
luded, received an annual salary of 5681., which would be paid
out of this vote. The salary of the Lieutenant-Governor was 163/.
per annum ; and then there was a Town-Adjutant, and a Town-
Major, who had also separate allowances--so much for the gar-
rison of Berwick. Then there was the non-resident Governor
of Lackness Castle; lie did not exactly know where the place
s was situated ; all he knew was, that there was such a Governor,

and he Was tion-resident. Ai Carlisle, there was a Governor at
an annual allowance 01113/, And in Chadter there was a Governor
at the same income. The Governor of Abel Cinque Potts bad
also a salary of 1731. a-year, and so- .had. the Lord Warden
and the Governor of Dover
.c..astle. - There ,was.a iarrison
at I)artmouth; and win) commanded it ? He found .that ,the;
Governorship of Dartmouth was giren ,to Arthur lIoWe Holds-
worth, Esq. Then-there Was anon-resident Governor of Dun-4,-,
liarten Castle and at, the Tower it. Nvit*.n9toifaiti that 'Many-of the
iiidividuals WhO,,,held appeintinents.-there, • 'lived r,iffolki. Nor-
ethti; places. We Member concluded by
opposing..the vote, and 'proposed as an F.mendnient to the effect,
that the .1-louse conceived the system of granting sinecures and
-..pensionTas-.one, lighly`inekiedieni,Tantl• they gaVe for
an exaropletheGovernorahip,of Berwick; anti-the-House further..,_
ihat pe.niipus should Le ,given. to meritorip,ps.
retired ofthiers,lesteid of Useles:S sinecures. - • ' •

Sir A. HOPE rose to oppose 'the amendinent of
the Hon. Gentleman, who had not proved to the House that the
situations of which he spoke were eirtecuieo. With respect to the
Governor of Berwick, he'had been '62 years in the service, and the
Lieutenant-Governor 49 years, making a total 'of 111 years passed
in the service of their country. It appeared that there were 59
Governors in all, whese united periods of service amounted to
2,000 years. The Covernor of Chelsea Hospital and himself
Ltd seen together a period of 104 years' service. There were, it
,appeared, 588 officers at present on the list, and many had not a
higher income than some Hon. Members of that House were in
the habit of giving their clerks.—(Hear, hear.)—lt was not true
that the army had gone on increasing in its expenditure. For, to
instance one class of officers—he meant the Colonels—they had
not received the smallest adtlitiz.n to their pay since tlu. reign cf
Queen Anne.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. MABEELY had advised his Hon. Friend
(Mr. Hume) long ago, not to press his objections against those
estimates, as such subjects could only be debated with effect in a
committee. His Host. Friend, however, had followed his own
discretion, and, perhaps, after all, he did right in keeping the
subject so constantly before the public. It had, no doubt, the
effect of putting a wholesome check to the expenditure of the
country. Ile wished his Hon. Friend would grasp the entire
subject at once, and move for a committee to inquire into the
whole expences of the country.—(Hear I)
Lord PALMERSTON observed, that the Hon.
Member (Mr. Moberly) bad displayed some little inconsistency;
for, from the line of argument he had used, it was natural to
suppose that he would have opposed in Coto the proposition of the
lion. Member for Aberdeen, instead of recommending him to
bring it forward in an amended form. There was not the least
doubt but that the proposition of the Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
Hume) was more consistent with justice and principle than that
which the Hon. Member (Mr. Moberly) suggested. The noble
Lord concluded by opposing the proposition of the Hon. Member
for Aberdeen.

Mr. BARING conceived that between the present
time and next Session, it would be right to consider some method
by which the accounts of the country could be simplifte.l.
Mr. HUME yielded to the suggeqicn of his Hon.
Friend, the Member for Abingdon, and carman:A to withdraw
hie amendment.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
said, that before the amendment was withdrawn, he wished to
make a few observations as to the government of the Isle of Wight,
which was at present held by the Earl of Malmesbury. The
Governor cf that island never had been a military officer ; he had
certain civil duties to perform, and acted rather as a Lord Lieu-
tenant. The office had been ordered to be abolished by an Act of
Th,.cliament passed in 1807 ; and on the death of its present
hoick:, the Earl of Malmesbur•, it would cease to exist.

Mr. RICKFORD objected to the Government of
Dartmouth being held by a gentleman who was.not in the army,
and proposed an amendment, reducing the original grant by the
salary paid to that gentleman.
On this amendment the House diiided, when there appeared
For it, 15 Against it, 45 Majority, 30, •
The original resolut►on was then put, and carr►ed. The other
resolutions were then agreed to, after a few desultory remarks from
Mr. Hume. _