The Sun.
London, England, 1827-06-08 00:00:00

AIISS TURNER'S DIVORCE BILL.

Sir A. GRANT and others from the Commons, brought
up a Message, requesting that their Lordships would fur-
nish them with copies of the minutes of the evidence taken

in support of the bill for declaring void and annulling the
Marriage between Ellen Turner and Edward Gibbon
Wakefield. On the motion that the Message from the
Commons be acceded to,

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said, that upon a ruo-

tion so much of course, it would be hardly pardonable in
him to request the attention of their Lordships. It was
known to many of them, that the third reading of that
Bill, passed inadvertently yesterday, the Noble Lord
who superintended its progress, not having intended
to move for the third reading until this evening.—
He did not now rise to express any opposition to the
measure, which, on the contrary, met with his most
cordial support ; still less did he mean to oppose a motion
which would enable the other House to proceed satisfac-
torily and at once with a Bill' which had met all
their Lordships' concurrence. But having expressed on
a former occasion his wish that the Bill should not
be read a third time, until all the evidence had been printed,
he felt it but due to himself to take thin opportunity of
.aying, that his wish so expressed did not proceed from
any intention of opposing the Bill. Thinking, how-
ever, that in all cases of importance the evidence
should be first printed, lie felt that the present
wai an occasion on which they should not proceed with-
out all the solemnity which the nature of the case re-
quired. The measure would have met with his most
hearty concurrence, even although he were unassisted and
unsanctioned by all the legal knowledge applied to the case.
Still he could not conceal from himself that the proceeding
was one of a very extraordinary nature, and one which nothing
but the peculiar nature of the facts disclosed at their Lord-
ships' Bar could, in the slightest degree, justify. lie felt
that unless their Lordships guarded themselves with
all possible caution, they would lay a very danger-
ous precedent ; they were running, as it were, before
the law, and providing redress for what the law
was unable to remedy, before they knew that the law was
inefficient. It would be dangerous, their Lordships

must admit, if individuals were allowed to come before
them, and in the anticipation of an evil, ask for security,

without first seeing whether the law of the country
would not afford them the security. The defect of the
law should be ascertained before their Lordships travelled
out of their road to give redress. The Noble Lord felt
nothing, but satisfaction with the whole course of
their Lordships' proceedings; and he thought that they
ought now to enable the other House to proceed with all
possible despatch with a Bill, which the justice of the case
loudly called for; but which, as it established a
dangerous precedent, he sincerely hoped would not
be followed as an example. He could not avoid adding

one observation on a circumstance which was most im-

portant, he meant the absolute necessity of revising the
Nlarriage Law of Scotland, so at least as to protect the
subjects of this kingdom from its operation.—(Hear,
bear.)—They bad a right to look to their Lordships for
some security, particularly as the law did not specify what
. . .

constituted a domicile in Scotland ; and no lawyer, he
believed, was able to explairiwhat circumstances did give a

right to a person to be considered domiciled in Scotland.
This circumstance strengthened him in the opinion that
the law ought to be revised.
The Earl of LAUDERDALE agreed (as we under-
-

stood) with all the observations of the Noble Marquis, as
to the merits of the case, and the conduct of one of the

parties, which he styled most atrocious, and he thought
the Bill necessary ; ftlr he had no difficulty in saying, that
the Ecclesiastical Courts could not have given relief. The

Noble Marquis had alluded to what he (the Earl of Lau-
derdale) regarded as a more material subject. He had
stated, that owing to the discrepancies of
.the Switch and
English laws, if no proposition should come from the in-
habitants of Scotland to alter the Scotch Law of Marriage,

the Noble Marquis hoped that the Noble and Learned Lord
on‘ the Woolsack, or some other legal person, would bring
in a measure to give security to the people of England.
He could assure the Noble Marquis, that no proposition of
cue kind would come from Scotland. The people of that

country were at present very well satisfied with the state of the
law ; and he we idd undertake to say, that the Noble Mar-
_ _

quis, would find, on inquiry, that the law of that country
was more pert:A than the English law. It was, in fact, the
same as the law'of England was before the Marriage Act.
The Marriage Law of England did more to drive people
to Scotland than the Marriage Law of that country. He
said this from conviction, for people never went from Eng-
land to Scotland to get married, till after that Act had been
-passed ; and he thought it would he better to repeal the
Marriage Act, than make any alteration in the Scotch Law.
Viscount MELVILLE said a few words which were
not distinctly audible below the Bar; but we understood
his Lordship to say, that the Law of Scotland did not re-
quire to be altered, but enforced.
The evidence requested by the Message from the Com-
mons, was then delivered to Sir Alexander Grant, and the
Commons retired from the Bar.

CATHOLICS.
The Archbishop of YORK presented a petition from a
place in Yorkshire, against granting further concessions to
the Catholics. _ _

The Earl of WINCHELSEA presented a similar Peti-
tion from the town of Lichfield and its neighbourhood.

IMPORTATION OF FOREIGN WOOL.
Lord WINCHELSEA presented a petition from the
Owners and Occupiers of Land in the eastern part of Kent

against the Importation of Foreign Wool.
The Earl of MALMESBURY reminded their Lordships
that he had stated, before the holidays, that he had two
important petitions to present on the same subject as the
petition just presented by the Noble Earl, and that when
he did present them, he would take the opportunity of
asking his Majesty's Ministers a question on the subject.
He meant to be very brief, but did not like to put a naked
question. The Wool Trade was, he might say, the staple
trade, as wool was the staple growth of this country. The
growth of wool and the trade in wool were cotemporaneous
with our existence as a commercial people; but then we
were the growers of wool, and Flanders was the seat of the
woollen manufacture. This continued, he believed, up to
the time of Edviard 111., when we obtained workmen from
Flanders, who were originally established, as he believed,
in Gloucestershire, and we began manufacturing ourselves.
From that time the exportation of Wool was prohibited.
We then changed our character, and not only grew the
raw produce, but manufactured it ourselves. At present
the situation of the country was" the very reverse from
that he described; woollens were now manufactured in
England, and, the raw material was grown abroad. In
support of this statement, he would refer to the quan-
tity of 'wool at present imported into this country.—
During the first-ten years of this century, the average quan-
tity of wool imported was 7,200,0001b5., and during the last
three years the average had been 27,436,0001b5,,, being an
increase during the last three years, over the first ten years
of the century, of 20,0001b5. He was aware that there
was one species of wool which it was necessary to im-
port to mix with our own, and to the wool which was
necessary for our own manufactures he did not object ;

but another species of wool cams, into competition wit
that of our own growth, the short wool ; and to that
he objected. 'The greater part or this importation came
from Germany, and if he could regard it as a temporary
thing, he should not be so anxious to guard against it ; but
it did not seem to, be temporary, for the importation of
wool from Germany went on gradually increasing. In
1814, the quantity of wool imported from Germany was
8,432,0001b5., in 1824, it was 15,412,0001b5., in 1825
it was 25,000,0001b5.', that was from Germany alone, and
in 1826, it was 11,000,0001b5. He was borne out by
these statements, in the importance he attributed to these
importations as far as the grower was concerned. The
consequence was, that the growers of wool in this country
could not dispose of their stock, and at present they had
the growth of two years on hand. It was necessary that
the farmers should have a great deal of capital to be able to
bear up against such a state of things. It was said they
might sell, but he would ask at what price ? If, indeed,
the owners of wool were keeping it in their possession in
order to obtain an exorbitant price, he should say they
would deserve to lose; but the fact was, that the price of
wool had fallen more than 100 per cent. Another fact con-
nected with this trade was, that we wet e thought to have the
monopoly of long wool. But he was of opinion that the
time was not far distant, when we should find competition
in this branch of our wool trade. It had been thought,
when permission had been granted to export our long wool,
that a great boon had been conferred on the wool growers ;
but what was the fact? Why only 150,0001b5. or
200,0001b5. had been exported. In France and in the
Netherlands, they bad now fine flocks of long-wooled
sheep; they had fine pastures, and there was nothing to
prevent them growing long wool as well as ourselves. He
would refer to our Colonies, and he had no objection to
their wool being imported into our country—he said, on
the contrary, let us have wool from our Colonies : but
there was one of them likely to send a large supply to this
country. In 1822 New South Wales had imported
138,0001b5. of wool into this country, and in the last year
that import had increased from 138,0001b5. to 1,106,0001b5.
He mentioned this to show the rapid increase of wool.
He knew also that great exertions were making in
Germany to encourage the growth of that article, and it
was impossible to foresee how rapidly it might be increased.
The petitions which he had to present to their Lordships
represented a vast deal of the property engaged in the
growth of wool. They were signed by between four
hundred and five hundred flock-masters, who lived in the
neighbourhood of Salisbury-plains. All these petitioners
concurred with him in the opinions he entertained of the
injurious consequences of thy' present law, and they asked
their Lordships for some relief. He begged leave to ask
his Noble Friend whether or not the Government meant to
take the case of the Growers of Wool into its consideration.
Viscount GODERICH, in answer to the question of
his Noble Friend, would not undertake to say that his Ma-
jesty's Government would. take into its consideration the
subject mentioned by his Noble Friend with a view to find
a specific remedy, or to propose any measure to relieve that
particular distress which was at present suffered• by the
grower of wool. If he could bring himself to think that
their distress arose from the want of a sufficient protection,
as his Noble Friend seemed to suppose, he should be dis-
posed to look on the matter in a different light ; but he
was convinced, that the notion that it was necessary for
the Government to encourage the growers of wool by a
protecting duty, would pot give them any relief, butwould
have an effect the very reverse. The cause, he believed,
of the present stagnation of the wool trade, was, that there
was a stagnation in the sale of the manufactured article,
and he.kould not conceive—it had never, he believed, been
argued24that a measure which would increase the price of
the raw material could promote the sale of manufactured
articles. There bad been a great increase of importation,
he admitted, but there had also beep a great increased con-
sumption of woollen cloths in this country, by the increase
of the people. The amount of woollens exported was of
the annual value of five or six millions, and, admitting that
much of that was sent to our own Colonies. and to a place
in which, like the East Indies, we had great advantages,
it would still be found that a very considerable amount of
woollens was annually exported from this country to coun-
tries open to the competition of other manufacturers as well
as those of England. If we were to raise the price of the
raw material, we should run a risk of being beat out of
those markets by other manufacturers, and losing the fo-
reign market altogether. He was anxious to adyert to a

misconception which seemed to be shared by his Noble
Friend, as to the circumstances which led to an alteration
of the duties on wool. His Noble Friend could, how-
ever, hardly share the opinion, which seemed to he
general, that the alteration which took place in the
duty on wool, in the year 1824, was a change in the
ancient system of the country. The fact was the reverse.
The circumstances under which the present duties on wool
had been established were these :—At the close of the war,
which had disturbed all our commercial relations, nume-
rous petitions were presented to Parliament from the
growers of wool, which were referred to a Committee of
the other House—he (lid not know if any Committee of
their Lordships' House bad been appointed—and the result
of the deliberations of that Committee was, that in the
opinion of the Committee no part of the distress could be
ascribed to the want of a sufficient price for wool. The
price of that time was considered by the Committee a suf-
ficient remuneration for the grower under the duty which
then existed. In 1825, after the duty had been reduced,
there was undoubtedly an increased importation ; but he
thought it was not fair to assume that this importation
had been caused by the reduction of the duty; or that that
reduction of duty had been the cause why the grower of
wool did not now receive a sufficient price for his com-
modity. It was not a fact, as was supposed, that the duty
on wool, which had been reduced in 1824, had been im-
posed with a view to protect the grower. In 1819, the
duty had been raised from one- penny to 6d., but that was
(lone as a means of raising a revenue, and not to give pro-
tection to the growers of wool. The Go-Yerninent had then
proposed to raise our revenue up to Our expenditure, and had
recommended to Parliament to impose additional taxation
to the amount of three millions,to which the Parliament had
agreed, and they had selected, among other articles, wool on
which to levy a tax. It was not at all the object of that tax
to raise the price of wool, or diminish the consumption of the
article, but it was assumed, judging from the quantity of wool
imported during the preceding years, that the tax would
yet yield a certain sum, and therefore it was laid on. In
fact it did not diminish the import. In 1821, 1822, and
1823, the average quantity of wool imported was almost
equal to the tota import of the year just passed, though
the duty had been raised to 6d. from ld. He was prepared
to contend, therefore, that his Noble Friend, in supposing
the distress had been occasioned by the subsequent reduc-
tion of duty on wool, was mistaken. His Noble Friend
laid great stress on the importation of 1825, but his Noble
Friend should recollect that the excessive importations of
that year were not composed of wool, but that speculation
had been equally active in every branch of trade. The true
relief, he thought, for the distress of the wool growers, was
ati extension of the market for our manufactured woollens ;
and the foreign market could only be extended by our be.
ing in a capacity to supply that market at a cheaper rate
than our competitors ; and putting a dotty on the raw ma-
terial could only serve to narrow that market, to diminish
our prosperity, and would have the very reverse effect from
that expected by the agriculturists. He would be very
ready to attend to his Noble Friend's suggestions, if he
thought any good would arise from them, but he believed
no benefit would accrue to the wool growers by adopting
the suggestions.
- After a few words from the Marquis of SALISBURY
and Lord REDESDALE, the petition was laid on the
Table.
- The Earl of MALMESBURY presented a petition from
the Town of Devizes to the same effect.
MESSAGE FROM HIS MAJESTY.
Viscount DUDLEY presented a Message from his Ma-
jesty. He moved that the Message be now read.
The following were the terms of the Messages—
" G. R.—His Majesty deeming it expedient to provide
for any additional expences that may arise on account of
the continuance of his Majesty's forces in Portugal, relies
on the affection of the House of Lords for its concurrence
in making provision for the sense."
Viscount DUDLEY moved that his Majesty's Message
be taken into consideration to-morrow.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH was desirous of putting one
or two questions to the Noble Lord opposite, on which
it might be expedient that Parliament should receive
some information before taking into consideration his
Majesty's Message to-morrow. Ile wished, first, to
inquire whether the Noble Lord's reasons for not giv-
ing the House any information on the questions he
(Lord Ellenborough) had put to him on a former night,
with respect to Portugal, still existed ? The next ques-
tion which lie wished to put to the Noble Lord,arose out of
the fourth article of the Treaty for the maintenance of the
British Army in Portugal, by which it was stipulated that
the Portuguese Government having verified the accounts of
the British Commissariat, should either pay the same forth-
with, or carry them over to the credit of the British Go-
vernment. He was desirous of ascertaining whether the
Portuguese Government had found time to verify the ac-
counts ; and also whether they found it convenient to pay
immediately, or carry over the accounts to our credit ?
Viscount DUDLEY said, that the same causes whiclatin
the judgment of his Majesty's Ministers, rendered it inex-
pedient on a former occasion to lay any papers - before the
House on the subject of Portugal, still existed. In answer
to the second question of the Noble Lord, he had only to
say, that the alternative of carrying the accounts over to
the say,_
of the British Governintnt had been preferred.
SECRET SERVICE MONEY.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH rose, for the purpose of
asking the Noble Secretary opposite (Viscount Dudley)
whether he would have any objection to explain some
circumstances which appeared to call for explanation, re-
specting the returns on account of Secret Service Money,
which had been laid on the table of that House. It ap-
peared that, (hiring the last four years, a suns of 203,0001.
had been issued from the Treasury, on account of Secret
Service, while, in the four preceding years, only 145,000/.
had been expended for that purpose. Here, then, was an
excess, during the last four years, of more than 58,000/. ;
and their Lordships would actually be led to inquire,
whether there was any thing in the state of European
politics to account for this excess. In 1820, no less than
three national revolutions had taken place on the Continent of
Europe; while the last three or four years were distinguished
only for the uninterrupted tranquillity which prevailed in
Europe. It appeared, therefore, that our expences of Secret
Service varied in the inverse proportion of the tranquillity of
the Continent. It was true, that the occurrences in Por.
tugal during the last year, might justify some increased
expenditure on this head, but were they sufficient to ac-
count for the difference between the expenditure of last
year and that of the year 1820, in which no fewer than
three revolutions occurred on the Continent ?- In the last
year, 58,0001. had been issued from the Treasury, on ac-
count of Secret Service, while the sums expended in the
extraordinary year to which he had adverted, amounted
only to 50,0001. The sum expended in the last finir years
exceeded by more than 23,000/. the sum votea by Parlia-
ment. Ile wished to know whether the Noble Lord had any
objection to lay before the ]louse a return of the sums issued
for Secret Service up to the present period. It appeared
from the Returns, that 10,000/. had been issued so late as
the 22d Pecember ; and he supposed, therefore, that no
very large sum could have been wanted for this service sub-
sequently to that period,
Viscount DUDLEY—My Noble Friend asks me to ex-
plain the cause of the difference between the expenditure of
Secret Service Money in the last four years, and that of the
preceding years. Now, how is it possible to give such an
explanation without going into the details of the estssyndi-
titre, or, in other words, without entering isi'm a public
detail of the applications of a Secret Service? I need
scarcely remind my Noble Friend that such a detail would
be inconsistent with the very nature of the service ; I need
scarcely inform him that the expenditure respecting which.
he seeks for a public explanation differs in its nature, as well
as in denomination, from all other public expences. It is,
no doubt, generally true that the application of the public
money should be publicly accounted for ; and that, with
respect to the details of every other branch of expenditure,
except that which is now the subject of the Noble Lord's
inquiries, toe public are entitled to the utmost possible satis-
faction. But the very nature of Secret Service Money ex-
cludes the possibility of entering into the details of its ap-
plication; and if my Noble Friend thinks the disposal ofa few
thousand pounds cannot be trusted to the honour and to the
oath of him whose duty it is to arspiy them to the public
service, let him have sesoarse to the proper remedy—la
him pursue the fair and manly course which such a con-
viction ought to suggest. That remedy and that course
are—not to inquire into the details of this expenditure, a
disclosure of which might, if the suspicions of my Noble
Friend were unfounded, deprive the public of the benefit
that might arise from it—but to say at once that the per-
son at the head of the department in question is.unworthy
of all trust and confidence ; and to bring forward a.Motion,
praying his Majesty to diarnias him from his couticiboo.—

the way in which the money has been employed. If such
a clue be given, it is by so much the less a Secret Service,
and by possibility the whole advantage that Might arise out
of the application of the money, maybe lost to the public by
such a disclosure. As to the apparent increased expendi-
ture for 1827, as compared with the'preceding year, it may
be accounted for by a surplus of 13,0001. or 14,0001. which
remained in hand at the close of the present year. It may
not be improper to remark, that at this period of political
excitement, when persons disregarding known facts, and
actuated by no fair or rational principles, were induced to
have recourse to rumours and speculations, and misrepre-
sentations, a rumour has very generally gone forth, that a
part of the Secret Service Money has been employed to buy
the Press. The assertion has been made so broadly
and unequivocally out of doors, that I think it right
to advert to it. Your Lordships are aware that, iu
strictness, I can have no knowledge of the details of the Se-
cret Service, previously to my coming into office. At the
end of the year the account is sworn to by the Se-
cretary of State, and there is en end of it ; the same thing
takes place when a Secretary of State goes out of office. 1
have no, regular• cognizance of the details, therefore, pre-
viously to my coming into office. I did, however, inquire;
the documents were still preserved, and I can assure your
Lordships that the inspection of these documents has left
upon my mind the strongest conviction which, a man can
have with respect to money which has not actually passed
through his hands, that not one shilling of it has.been ap-
plied to the purpose of influencing any portion of the Press
of this country. With respect to the observation* which
fell from'a Noble Lord, as to the issues not corresponding
with the Parliamentary Grants, I may observe, that where
the expenditure in any number of years appears to exceed
the grants in that time, the difference is met by surplusses
from former grants.

Lord ELLENBOROUGH observed, that on looking
back to the last ten years, there appeared to he a total de-
ficit of 32,0001. There was always some deficit, and in
no case a surplus. He was exceedingly glad that the Noble
Lord opposite had at length begun to answer questions,
though he confessed be was a little surprised to find that-
the Noble Lord's first answer was a regular speech, em..
bracing topics to which he (Lord Ellenborough) had not
at all alluded. He maintained that the returns laid before

the House justified the questions which he had put to his
Noble Friend.

The Marquis of LONDONDERRY wished to ask the
Noble Viscount whether he had any objection to distinguish
between the portion of Secret Service Money expended
abroad, and that appropriated to what was considered the
public service at home?
Viscount DUDLEY was restrained, by a sense of public
duty, from answering the question of the Noble Marquets-,
If upon his (Lord Dudley's) silence the Noble Marquis
founded any inference unfavourable to the Right Ron.
Gentleman at the head of the Government, he could only
my that the suspicions of the Noble Marquis were most
unjust and unfounded.-({Dear, hear.)

Viscount STRANGFORD had been so entirely uricon-
fleeted with party during the whole course of his public
life, that he should be the last man to ob!crude any
observations upon their Lordships in any matter which had
. _

reference exclusively to party considerations. He might,
however, be allowed to say, that an experience of nearly
five-and-twenty years passed in the King's service in almost
half the Courts of Europe, had given him•something like a
practical and technical knowledge of the subject on which.
the Noble Baron had addressed the House. • It was to Malt
a matter of the most complete and consummate indifferehie
to which side of the House his opinions might be accept-
able, or otherwise, so long as he obeyed the plain dictates of
truth and justice. He bad served under nine different Stare •
taries of State for Foreign Affairs, and he Mt himself bound to,
aver to their Lordship that he had never known any Minister
exercise over the particular branch of expenditure in qwes-
Lion, a more scrupulous and vigilant controul, or surround

it with more efficient safegnik-rde than the Right Host.
person who lately presided over the Foreign Department.
Ile had served under the orders of that Right Hon. Gen-
tleman in five different Courts. Their Lordships were
aware that. as long as human nature remained what it
was, occasions would arise in the conduct of the King's
affairs, in which applitation to that potent engine, Secret
Service Money, was indispensable. As far as his
..,(Lord
.s.'s) experience had gone, he could assure their LordshipA,
that whenever these occasions arose, no administrator of
the fund could be more cautious in its employment tl-;,an the
Right Hon. Gentleman. I-le felt it his duty to lAA, this,
he believed unsuspected, testimony to the Right Hon.
Gentleman, and he had no other motive in making this
statement, except his regard for truth and justice, which
ought to be superior to all other feelings and considerations
whatever.

CORN BILL.
Lord GODERICH moved that the House resolve itself
Lott) a Committee on the Corn Bill.

The Marquis of LONDONDERRY wished, before the
House went into a Committee, to ask the Noble Lord
opposite, whether, since the majority which had recently
taken place on a clause in this Bill, certain Noble Lords
had received information, that if they did not alter their
votes, and conform to the wishes of his Majesty's Mini-
sters, they would not be allowed to remain in his Ma-,
jesty's Household? The House and the country °ugh:, to
understand whether, during the progress of thi:A
steps had been taken to intimidate Noble Lrdas from

discharging what they felt to be their duty to t:ne country,
and especially to the agricultural interest.

Lord GODERICH believed the Noble Marquis had
exhihited the first instance ever known of calling upon a
Minister of the Crown to stat 4 what adviee he had
given with respect to persona holding offices under the
Crown, before such advice had been given and taken. He
would not compromise what was due to the King's prero-
gative by answering the question of the Noble Marquess.
Lord DELAWARE owed it to their Lordships and to
himself to state, that in consequence of the vote he had
given ou the question of the amendment of the Noble Duke
(Duke of Wellington), he bad felt it his duty to follow np
that vote, by resigning the situation he held in his Ma-
jesty's Household. He had taken that course without re-
ceiving any intimation, or holding any communication
with any person whatever.—(Hear.)
The House then resolved itself into a Committee on the
Corn

Tice Earl of MALMESBURY inquired whether the
isles of Guernsey and Jersey were included in the provi-
sions of this Bill as part of the United Kingdom?
Lord GODERICH stated, that by the existing law,
these islands were entitled to export all their produce to
this country, and any attempt to exclude it would he a di-
rect violation of their chartered rights. Nor had the Im-
perial Parliament any right to impose duties on the intro_
Auction of foreign corn into these islands, which had Le-
gislatures of their own,'that claimed and exercised the
whole power of taxation over them. It also happened,
that in one of these islands they had a Corn Law of their
own, rigidly adverse to the admission of foreign corn. It
was, in fact, quite contrary to their policy to encourage
supplies from abroad. In 182 S, they protested against tke,
Bill then passing through Parliament, because it gave
greater facilities to tho introduction of foreign corn than.
were permitted by their own regulations.
The Earl of MALMEiBURY was not quite satisfied
with the. Noble Viscount's explanation, and he regarde:/
this as an important point when they were legislating per-
manently. It was evident that the islands of Guernsey
and Jersey might establish an entrepot, and carry on a 17.,_
crative trade in corg between foreign countries awl, Great
Britain. Nothing in the existing law could Pr' ,vent it.
Lord GODERICH was pretty Confia- et that in the
Custom Laws these were some regulat:,one that would in-
terfere with any attempt to bring foreign corn into this
country', through those Islands-, We had Custom-house
Officers there, though we We* not entitled to impose du-
ties upon them ; and, the produce were not their own,
or some other precaution, would,
anoeedrtoilfitheat,tebeotfAiktseno.tieu.

The Erui of MALMESBURY said it was clear that fo-
reign corn might be imported to any amount through these
islands. No certificate of origin, or other regulation of the
Custom-house, would be sufficient to check the frauds that
might be committed. The only effectual remedy would
be, either to consider Guernsey and Jersey as foreign coun-
tries, and subject their corn to the same duty as other fo-
reign corn, or to treat them as a part of the United King-
dom, and bring them within the operation of the Bill.—
That the danger lie apprehended was not so visionary as
the Noble Viscount represented, he would prove by the
fact) that when in another place an Hon, .Gentleman had
moved for certain Returns relating to these islands, it ap-
peared that in some years there had been a very great es-
portation of wheat from them. He had no desire a,
Parliament should not hold the charter of these islands sa.

creel ; but he tvaa entitled, on behalf of the landowners of
Great Britain, to ask for something like protection.
Lord REDESDALE was not afraid of any produce of
their own that might be imported from these islawls.
Lord GODERICH remarked, that if it should here-
after appear that the regulations now in force were not
sufficient to meet the views of Parliament, he would have
no objection to provide for the point. He was pretty sure,
however, that it would turn out to be well provided for
already.
The Earl of MALMESBURY was satisfied with the

assurance he had received from the Noble Viscount.

Lord TEYNHAII then rose to propose a Clause, which
would have the effect of protecting the agriculturist, by
giving him time to recover from the ruinous effects of
sudden changes in price, and excessive fluctuations in the
market. The clause :provided, that "when it appeared
by the returns in the London Gazette, that in any one
year the quantity of wheat imported and admitted to home-
consumption should exceed one million quarters of wheat,
or one hundred thousand sacks of flour ; 'all further im-
portation should cease, unless the average price of wheat
should exceed 669."

Lord GODERICH was convinced that great, if not in-
superable difficulty, would be found in carrying this clause
into execution as a permanent measure.

Lord TEYNHAM said, his only object was to impose
some restraint on the possibly enormous importation that
might take place. It was his opinion that the effect of
this Bill would be a reduction to the extent of twenty-five
millions from the Landed Interest; and the consequences
of that reduction would find their way into every depart-
ment of the State.

Lord ELLENBOROUGH considered the object of the
Amendment exceedingly good, 'but the mode of it he by no
means cotridercd very advisable.
The Earl of MALMESBURY, referring to what had
fallen from him on a former occasion, argued the feasibility
of admitting foreign produce by instalments. He confessed
he looked more to the quantity imported than to the price or
duty. If a regulation of that nature could be devised, he
would say they had at last found the right principle of the
Corn Laws. His own opinion was, that it would he
practicable by admitting the foreign corn in monthly in-
stalments so long as the average price was above a certain
sum. For example, if in September the average was 66e.,
he would allow in October a quantity not exceeding 300,000
quarters to be entered for home consumption, and at the
same rate he would go on every month until the average
was below 665. This was what he might call an altera-
tive system. As to its practicability, he had no doubt. In
that odious measure, which he could not designate by words
sufficiently strong, and which gave his Majesty's Govern-
ment the power of admitting 500,000 quarters of foreign
wheat for home consumption, the principle of this regula-
tion was recognised, and its practicability too. That Bill
never came into operation, though it produced the most in-
jurious effects on the market; but if it had become opera-
tive, and there had been 527,000 quarters in the ware-
houses, Government must have selected the fixed quantity.
If that course could have been practicable then, it would
be equally so at any future period.

Earl STA.I,7HOPE contended that the clause was not,
in any degree, contrary to the principle of the Bill.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH remarked, that there was
one mode in which the difficulty might be obviated, but
it was a mode which no political economist would approve,
though it had been adopted with advantage by several of
the smaller States on the Continent, and some even'of the
larger. That was, to make the State the sole depositary
of• foreign corn. The necessary regulation would be, that
it should be lawful for Government to buy always at a
certain low price, and sell always at a certain high price,
ufitil the market price was reduced below it. This mode
would,obviate all the difficulties attendant on the admission
of foreign corn, and it had the recommendation of having
been uniformly snecesefuL wherever it bad been tried.
Lord HOLLAND said, those who were connected with
the land would doubtless feel much obliged to the Noble
Baron (Ellenborough) for his suggestion. For his own
part, he could imagine no project more subversive of their
independence and interests than that suggested in so friendly
a tone by the Noble Baron. If it were adopted, there
would be no possibility of any body deriving his income
from the land, venturing, under any circumstances, to
vote against the Government,be it what it might.--(Hear,
hear.)—All their chance of receiving any rent would de-
pend on their conduct towards the Government.' He
protested-he could not understand how any Noble Lord
could reconcile it to his notions of the Constitution to
throw out a suggestion so directly subversive of the liber-
ties of the people.—(-Ilear, hear.)
Lord ELLENBORPUGH
.centrilaine(L, that it was ex-
ceedingly inconvenient for any. Noble Lord to attend toonly
one half of a speech made by another, and to mistake a
eygestion for a propositiOn. If the power of sale was li-
mited by the average price, and the time of sale also limited,
Ile believed no danger could accrue to the landed interest.
Without trading in corn, surely the Noble Lord (Holland)
was aware, that Government bad other means of securing
votes in Parliament.--(Loud cries of " Hear, hear," from
Earl Stanhope.)
The Amendment was then negatived witliout a division.

The Earl of WESTMORELAND said, what he had to
submit was that, at this moment, not only 600,000 quar-
ters of wheat at present in bond, but the whole of England,
would be open to the immediate operation of this law; and
his apprehension was that the Bill would produce great evil
to ;he public if the admission of corn was not, in some de-
gree, guarded against. He thought that the agriculturisthad a
right to demand, at the hands of the public, that their case
should be considered, and that the Bill ought not to come
Soto operation before the corn now in bond had, in some
degree, been got rid of or lessened. He thought that no
man, however fond he might be of the principle of ge-
neral trade, could assert that any trade could be fair, or
could be carried on upon the principle upon which
trade ought to be carried on, when there was a quan-
tity of the commodity in the market so large as that
which was the quantity of the bonded corn. Ire, for one,
thought the system of warehousing had done a deal of mis-
chief.—(Hear, hear, hear.)—That it was more injurious,
both to the agriculturists and manufacturer, in consequence
of the fluctuations it created, than almost any other thing ;
ail(' that the agriculturists would make a good bargain if
they got rid of warehousing on almost any terms. The
proposition he wished to suggest was to endeavour, in some
way, to get rid of the warehoused corn before the present
Act came into operation. Upon two former occasions of
alterations in the Corn Laws, this principle had been acted
upon. In order to effect this object, he proposed that the
Bill should act immediately, as far as related to warehoused
corn, but should not come into operation, as to other corn,
til} six months hence. The Noble Lord concluded with
moving that, till the 16th of August, 1827, it should be
lawful for the holders of warehoused wheat and other corn
to enter warehoused corn for home consumption, under the
provisions of this Act ; and that the provisions of this Act
should not take full effect with respect to all sort of corn and
grain, before the Ist of January 1828.

Lord GODERICH feared that the proviso of his Noble
Friend, if adopted, would be encompassed with technical
difficulties. It would postpone the period for admitting
corn to be imported on payment of certain duties, and so
keep those duties granted by tr.? Bill out of his Majesty's
Exchequer during that interval. He knew his Noble
Friend thought that the amendment might be easily affect-
ed- (Lord Westmoreland.—" No, insert it in the other
Bill.") He
(Lord Goderich) feared, that if inserted in the
average Bill, it would be liable to the same difficulty.
There certainly was a clause in the Bill, giving the power
to Parliament to amend it during the present Session; but
he feared that even if the proviso were adopted, it would
fail to effect the purpose of his Noble Friend. With re-
spect to the measure of 1825, their Lordships would recol-
lect that they were then only dealing for once with a de.
finite quantity, and were not making provision for the fu-
ture admission of an unlimited quantity. For these rea-
-- he could not bring himselt to acquiesce in the opinion
son-,
• advantage would result from the adoption of his
that any
Noble Frient, 5 proviso.
The Eari a WESTMORELAND explained.
The Earl of ;;ZALiNIESBURY hoped that his Noble
Friend would turn his ;mind to this subject between this
and the time when the report would be brought up, in order
to devise some means, if possible, of avoiding the evil
pointed out by his Noble Friend near him. The Noble
Earl then objected to the present clause, which he thought
ought not to have been introduced into the Bill.
The Earl of LAUDERDALE complained that the word-
ing of the clause rendered it confused and unintelligible.
Lord GODERICH was not reconcile,'. to the introduc-
tion of his Noble Friend's proposition; but he had no ob..
3ection to consider if there was any mode of accomplishing
his object.
The clause vcas then agreed to.
On the reciprocity clause being read,
Lord ELLENBOROUGH said he recognized the hand
of Mr. Jacob in this clause, and complained of the incon-
sistency of the President of the Board of Trade, as it had
been shown in his arrangement of the details of foreigni
shipping, in the proceedings on the reciprocity of dutie
bill. The Noble Lord then went into a variety of state 4
=cuts, to prove the decline of interest suffered by British

shipping, and the advancement of that of the nations of the
Baltic.

Lord GODERICH defended the clause.
The Duke of WELLINGTON justified the dance.
The Earl of MALMESBURY and Earl STANHOPE opposed
the clause, which was agreed to.
Lord TEYNHAM moved a new clause, empowering te-
nants, upon a year's notice, to void their leases.
Lord GODERICH objected to the clause.
The clause was then negatived.
On the succeeding clause of the Bill,
The Earl of MALMESBURY moved that the price of
625., which had been fixed as the point of remuneration,
should be substituted by 665.
Lord GODERICH thought that all attempts at fixing a
remunerating price would fail. In the Bill of 1815 he had
ventured to argue in the same way, that the 80s. which
was taken for the minimum would turn out in effect to be
the maximum. But he contended that 60s. now was a
better price than 80s. then.
The Earl of LAUDERDALE, after referring to a speech
published on the corn question, read a passage, in which
it was proposed to modify the duty by several gradations
till the prices sunk to 555. per quarter, and the duty was
then to be 305., " or, in other words," so went the speech,
" a prohibitory duty." Lord Liverpool had proposed the
price of 60s. as that upon which the prohibitory duty
should take effect. He looked on the Bill as a juggle,
therefore, and warned Noble Lords of its most dangerous
tendency. It contemplated as a principle the necessity of
this country depending for its supply of grain upon ether
countries. From the beginning of time down to this day,
there was no instance of a country doing that for a conti-
nuance of time with impunity. It was that which
brought the Roman empire to decay. He supported the
amendment.

The Earl of DARNLEY was of opinion that the agri-
culturists ought to have a protection against the corn now
in bond, and if the amendment proposed by a Noble Duke a
few evenings ago went farther than this, lie thought it went
too far. He therefore intended to move, when the report
was brought up, by way of amendment to the proposition
of the Noble Duke, " that the corn now in bond should not
be brought out for home consumption till the price reached
665. ; and that all corn imported afterwards should be sub
iect to the provisions of the Bill."
The Marquis of BUTE said, that his impression of the
speech of a Right Hon. Gentleman on this subject in
another place, was, that the Bill was intended to afford a
fluctuating price of between 555. and 655. From the evi-
dence produced before the Select Committee, his impres-
sion was, that the Bill would not afford a fluctuating price
to any such extent. He thought that on the showing even of
that Right Hon. Gentleman and of the Noble Lord opposite,
it would never afford a greater price than 58s. or 595., and
he should certainly support the amendment of his Noble
Friend (Lord Malmesbury) by his vote. Insinuations had
been made that the amendment of a Noble Duke would
have the effect of throwing out the Bill altogether. If any
one attempted to influence him by such a threat in the per-
formance of what he felt to be his duty, lie should conceive
it to be a personal insult. He should give his vote un-
mindful of what might be the consequences. If a member
of the House of Commons wished to, retire, he had nothing
to do but to accept the Chiltern Hundreds, but their Lord-
ships could never fly from their post, and were responsible
to higher powere. He would not detain their Lordships
longer than to observe, that in a question of this nature, if
there was a doubt, the existing interests ought to have the
benefit of it.

Lord REDESDALE argued at some length against the
principle of the Bill. There had gone forth a voice in
another place saying, that the landed interest must be put
down. Such language, he would contend, was the lan-
guage of conspiracy : it was revolutionary; it was the
language of the London Corresponding Society.
Lord HOLLAND rose to order. Their Lordships must
see the inconvenience which would result to the debates in
that House by any allusion to what passed in the House of
Commons, which could not but tend to raise disputes be-
tween the two Houses of Parliament.

Earl STANHOPE said, that his Noble Friend had said
nothing about the House of Commons.

Lord HOLLAND understood the allusion to have been
made to what had passed in the House of Commons, and
he was quite sure that the Noble and Learned Lord would
be the first to allow that any such allusion was contrary to
the order of that House.

Lord REDESDALE continued. He hoped at least that
he should not be out of order in alluding to the London
Corresponding Society. If their Lordships would refer to
the documents relating to this Society, they would find,
that " liberty and equality," and " no Corn Laws," were
their constant cry. To the effect of "no Corn Laws" was
the present measure owing; and he denounced it as a re-
volutionary measure, though he was-sure that his Majesty's
Ministers did not mean it as such. His Majesty's Minis-
ters, however, bad let a cat out of a bag in one particular.
In proportion as Corn was admitted, the revenue, which
was now in a very declining state, would be increased. If
the object of the Bill was to increase the revenue by the
importation of Corn, the money thus acquired would some,
not out of the pockets of the consumers, but out of the
pockets of the corn-growers ; and the Bill would therefore
be, in effect, a new land-tax. Another material objection
to the Bill was, that it fixed a price beyond which they
could not go ; which was, in point of fact, attempting to
force nature; but he would tell Noble Lords that such a
scheme must fail, for " the winds and the rains would laugh
them to scorn, and the frosts and the snows would hold
them in derision."

The Earl of HARROWBY said, that the accusation
that this was a measure of revolutionary tendency was
misplaced : and, with respect to the expression which the
Noble and Learned Lord had quoted, he would not believe
that it had ever been used in the place in which the Noble
Lord had supposed it to have been used, until he was told
by that Noble Lord that he had heard it with his own
ears ; and he refused to believe it, because he thought that
a general cry of indignation would have followed the ex-
pression of such sentiments.—(Cheers.)—This measure
was not one by which it was sought to attempt to disturb
the operations of nature, but to endeavour, as far as it Le-
gislature could, to procure an equable supply of corn at as
undeviating a price as possible. The Noble Earl, after
commenting upon the existing regulations respecting the
corn trade, said, that if they persisted in these regulations,
he must warn them how they endangered a recurrence to a
paper currency, which he conscientiously believed would be
the consequence. He was not one of those who had wished
to abandon so hastily the paper currency; but now that it
had been done, and he recollected the distress from which
the country had recovered, he could never wish that those
steps of difficulty and danger should be retraced. If their
Lordships thought that this was a measure full of revolu-
tionary principles, and that, from the experience of the
nast history there were any grounds for the alarms which
had been raised, their reluctance to agree to the measure
would be just. For his own part, he did not think that
those alarms were justified either by sober and sound rea-
soning, or by past experience ; and he hope() that their
Lordships would not reject a measure to which the country
had been for some time looking with great anxiety, and of
which his Majesty's Ministers, whatever might have been
their differences of opinion on other points, were unanimous
in their recommendation.—(Cheers.)

Earl STANHOPE said that the Bill had a fallacy, if not
a fraud, on the face of it. The protecting point was stated
at 601. A person, celebrated for his industry and accuracy
in calculations, had shown that corn might be brought to
England from five different ports at the price of 305., and
the Bill therefore would net afford protection at a greater
price than 545. or 555. He did not mean to enter into
the point of who proposed the measure and with which of
his Majesty's Ministers it originated ; but he hoped that it
was not brought forward in consequence of a pledge,
which was given last Session, that the subject should be
taken into consideration this,—that pledge given, it must be
recollected, on the eve of a general election. He should
support the amendment of the Noble Lord.
After a few words from the Earl of MaLSSESBURY and
the Earl of H.&aaoway, the question "whether 625. should
stand as part of the Bill" was put, and the contents were
declared to have it.

Earl STANHOPE said he should propose an amend-
ment to prohibit altogether the importation of foreign
flour. He stated that the quantity of flour imported into
Liverpool in the course of one year amounted to 545,000
barrels, and the amount lately imported in one week into
the same place was 5,150 barrels.
Lord REDESDALE supported the amendment. As
the Bill at present stood, it gave an advantage to the foreign
manufacturer—for flour was a manufacture—over the
English manufacturer.

Lord BEXLEY said, that the comparative duties of
flour and corn hut been the subject of the minutest consi-
deration, and he thought the duty fixed upon had hit the
lust medium.

The amendment was then negatived.

Earl STANHOPE moved an amendment with the view
of describing what would be the practical effects of the Bill,
whatever might be its professed object. He moved that
the Bill be entitled, " An Act for granting duties of customs
oa eorn, and for the discouragement of agriculture in this
country ; and for the encouragement of agriculture in

foreign countries; and for imposing a tax on the food of
the people."
The amendment was put, and negatived.
The remaining clauses of the Bill were then agreed to,
and the House resumed.
Lord GODERICH said, .that in order that the amend-
ment which had been made a few days ago might be taken
into consideration, lie should on Tuesday next move that
the report of the Committee be brought up, as he thought
that day would be convenient to all parties ; and he gave
notice that on Friday week he should move the third read-
ing of the Bill.
The House then adjourned at Twelve o'Clock.