The Sun.
London, England, 1845-05-03 00:00:00

station, hail had the benefit of sikch rouniel as defeture I
him, and hail been h-iV,.d b_fore so excellent a judge, and se
impartial a jury, that his confession of guilt Under suCli ci'-
cumstances was a matter of much con-V'enße, tt; it ent'sid nOi
in tne least add to the satiefactioil 4'. 'sae mind of every one
that he was guilty eq crime laid to his charge.—( Hear,
hear.) lit triest confess that he did not see how the magis-
trittes, more than any one else who might take an interest in
the matter, had any right to call for the production of any
communication made to the chsplaiti:—( liver,
The Duke of BUCKINGHAM thought the question was,
whether/or net the Chaplain aas justified in withhtildirig it
statement made to him under such circumstancl?in
Lord STANLEY said he week'.ufal:i inquiry of the Home
Secrstary into the eilaalfsaiitances, and would take an early
opportunity of ebrnmunieating the result to their Lordships.
BANGOR AND S r. ASAPIL
Earl POWIS presented several petitlars flee tiaiie`a in
Wales against the union of theeeeea Of Mapn and Bangor. In
moving the seeeed feadilig of the Bill it became necessary for
him neW lb state the result of the communications he bad
with the public on the subj, et of disuniting the two sees, He
had la.ely received petitions in favour leg his. Meaellee frail
nearly every county hi Etielatnl tired Wales, and all
of them complained et' tlit difficulties and inconveni-
ence which heal arisen from the union of the
two Beet) there was a numerous population in
both secs, and their Lordships must be fully aware of thb
diflia.ties the present Right It Phetite had to euhtelid
-against, owing to the dissittillitlide llshieli existed between the
two languages: That Right Rey. Prelate was distinguished
for his learning and piety, and although he had the love and
eeoftdence of his flock, he confessed that he found it extremely
difficult to ray due and sufficient attention to impeoelog the
state and eondition of the numerous fleck lenelee hie charge.
And if the Right Rev. Peelete eXperienced difficulties of this
kind, how would hit successor, who might happen to have less
experience and be less distinguished for his talents, be able to
Contend against them ? Then, if they wan'sd any additiohal
evidence of the inconvenienee restating from the union of two
dioceses, they had it le the case of the dioceses of Gloucester
and Brittol, the union et' which had given rise to extraordinary
incenvenience and difficulty. Many persons had petitiened
their Lordships whims interests were dt,cctly ativanttd by the
union of the two sees t but the pettribners (for instance, the '
clergy and inhabitant§ of Manchester) had petitioned
against the union, declaring their conscientious ob-
jection to receiving benefit from an Ant which inflicted Ins
jury on another part of the stoenteee Ile fegretted that a
Noble Lord who cook di i,p interest in this matter last year
was pliable. ti :attend on that occasion, but he had the satisfac-
!len of assuring the llotoe that that Noble Lord's (Harrovvhy:s)
opinion on this matter remained unchanged. As reearcicd the
appointment of a Bishop of :11aticliester, he thought the
enormous and increasing population of Lancashire, as shown in
the last Census returns, was a sufficient inducement, or at all
events it would be an ample justification for them agreeing to
this part of his measure. The next topic to which he would
allude was an amendment which had been introduced by his
Noble Friend, on the Act of 6th and 7th William IV.,
which had been the foundation of the Church Commission. He
only wi,h.d that his Noble Friend had been of the same
opinion now that he was when this Commistion was issued ;
and that he and the inhabitants. of No th Wales could have the
advantage of the arg 'merits which he had then used, for he
was sure that thee her Majesty's Government and the several
members of the Ecclesiastical Commission would est with him.
The report of that. Commission was made on the 17th of
March, 18t5, and in the year following, on the 4th of March,
a great alteration had been made in the view taken
by the Ecclesiastical Commission of the union of the sees
! of St. Asaph and Banger, and on the increase of the incomes
of those dioceses. Their object at the latter time appeared to be
to alter those sees, and to apply the sums to other purposes than
those contemplated by the Ecclesiastical Commission when first
this reduciiin was mooted. The income of the diocese of St.
Asaph was 5,204. a-year, and that of Bangor, 3,80(►/. It was
proposed to take from these the sums of 2,3001., and, with the
28,000/. already appropriated from other sources, to create a
sum of upwards of 30,000/., which was to increase the incomes
of the thirteen Bishops, to the amount of 3,0001. a year. This
report, however, did not hear the signature of Sir R. Inglis,
but of Thomas Spring line. At the time it was first proposed
to take anything from the 3,e00t. of the diocese of -Bangor,
the money was to be appropriated to the improvement of the
poorer livings. During the long time in which he had had to
fulfil his duty to the principality, he had frequently had °eel-
sion to see persona high in the confidence of her Majesty's Go-
vernment ; but during the whole of his experience he had
never received a more explicit reply than had been made to a
deputation, which had, on this subject, waited on LOH John
Russell and Mr. Spring Rice, at that time Chancellor of the
Exchequer, and, from the words Which fell from Lord John
Russell, it was certainly the hripression of the deputation that
it was the intention of the Government tea place the bishoprics
in Wales on precisely the same footing as other bishoprics. They
conceived at that time thnt nn portion ought to be taken froth
the revenues of the Welsh benefic,t, as they were at
that time only sufficient, and barely sufficient, for the
wants of the people, and that if they did so they
would reduce the revenues below the requirement
of the country for spiritual inatructioh. That deputation had
been composed of men of the highest position, and of all par-
ties. After the interview, hovieVor, hr *as free to confess that
the hope of the deputation had glue by. Yet Lord John Rus-
sell had admitted that there was no opportunity of taking any
thing from the amount of the incomes of the sees of St: Asttph
and llangor ; although he had stated the intention of the tio-
vernme it to modify those blehopties. Since 1836, con-
siderable attention had been paid to the interests of North
Wales, but still not that degree of attention which its interests
were entitled to. In :youth Wales the cues were somewhat
different, yet to both portions of the country the same prin-
ciple applied. There were in the whole of Wales deaneries,
and to each see there were tntl eanotiries attached. Not-
withstanding the declaration of the Government, that it was
intended to place the Church in England and Wales on the
same footing, arel to assimilate the number of the canonries to
those belonging to the chapter* In England, the number re-
mained unaltered, and while the deaheries In England were
1,000/. each, while those in Wales were only 700/. each ; and
while the cannot-Ma In England were 500/. a-year, theta 'n
Wales were only 300/. a-year. There was another source from
wheel:* the sums tequired might be drawn and applied to
North Wales. This was the revenges of what were called the
sinecure vicarages, to which Ito duty was attached, and no in-
jury would there fore be done by applying their
ineemes to active and useful purposes. If it was
not taking too great a lib rti, he would address their
Lordships on two other points. They were illustrative of the
seme of tyro impoi tent bodies on this question. It would be
recollected by their Lordships that last year the University of
Oxford had conferred a degree upon him. At the time when
this great honour was conferred he was unknown to that uni-
versity, except through his connexion with the question of the
union of the sees of Bangor and St. Asaph. His conduct on
that question had found favour in their eyes, and hence it was
that they conferred on him that which he looked upon as the
greetest compliment ever paid him Si7Ce his entry into public
life. His only passport to their favour had been the conscien.
tious discharge of his duty. And this he would say, that his
reception for the part he had taken, and the proceedings con-
nected with that reception, coming from the young blood and
education of England, supported by the learning and ability
that presided over it, was not to be slighted or lightly passed
over. In this country public opinion virtually reigned, and
their Lordships would do well to consider it. This was not a
demonstration got up by public excitement, and by ignorant men,
but of a body who perfectly understood the subject and the con-
sequences which would result from it. The next point to which
he would revert, as illustrating public opinion on this subject,
was a vote of thanks given him by the clergy of the diocese of
Bangor, for the part he had taken in endeavouring to prevent
the union of the sees of Bangor and St. Asaph. The Noble
Lord here read the vote of thanks, and concluded by moving
the second reading of the Bangor and St. Asaph anal Man
chester Dioceses Bill.
The Duke of WELLINGTON said he could not give his
assent to what the Noble Lord who had just sat down proposed.
With respect to the petitions which had been presented, he
must express his admiration of those who had signed them for
their attachment to the Church. Still they should not be led
away by these petitions. He had looked into the petitions
presented against the union of Bangor and St. Asaph, up to
the close of last sitting, and out of 312 presented, only one-
third, or about 100, were presented from the dioceses of St.
Asaph and Bangor. The others were from all other parts of
England.— ( Hear, hear.) He would make some observations
on these petitions presently. But what he wished to call their
attention at present to was the particular provisions of this
Bill. It was a Bill neither more or less than to repeal the Act
5 and 6 William IV., which Act was intended to carry into
effect the report of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners. He
would state the object sought to be obtained by that Corn-
miss:on. It was desired to remove many anomalies from out of
the Church—to render it, in the exercise of its duties, more
efficient and more general—to extend its influence into parts
of the country where its superintendence was much required,
and to render it an object of attachment and affection in all parts
of the nation, but more especially in populous districts. The great
object was to review and revise the whole system, and to render it
more useful for the wants of the people. This it was desirable
to do by the means already at the disposal of the Church, and
hence. in 1835, the Government recommended the issuing of
the Commission. In the report drawn up by that Commission
certain recommendations were made, and it was well known
that the arrangements proposed to be carried out, founded ON
that report, involved a great sacrifice of patronage, not only
on the part of the country, but by the Ministry, the Right
Reverend Prelates and Noble Lords of both aides of the
House. All this sacrifice was made with the single object of
rendering the Church more efficient in its ministrations, and
better adapted to the wants of the people. For he did not tee
why the public should be made to incur greater expense than
was absolutely necessary, and he we., quite coefident that if
this union took place, all that could be desired for the efficient
maintenance of the Church would be fully secured. He could
easily account for the number of petitions that had been pre-
sented by Noble Lords against the union of the sees, by a feel-
ing on the part of the petitioners that by the proposed arrange-
ment the temporal interests of the Church would not be suffi-
ciently atended to. No one felt more than lit did the neces-
sity of making proper provision for the interests of the Church,
and he considered it one of the greatest advantages which th s
country possessed.—the having men of great attainments) and
with moral worth, filling the highest offices ih the Church—
which he contended was to a certain event to be attributed to
the circumstance of the having an adequate remuneration for
the slischaree of the important duties which devolved upon
them. Associaticg as he dial there and elsewhere with them,
he was enabled to say that a more worthy or more excellent
body of men did rot exist, and the public could hot secure
the services of such men unless they were properly recom-
pensed for their services. Many, as he had already remarked,
had thought that the proposed arrangement would not effect
this, and to that cause he attributed two-thirds of the peti-
tions that had been presented against the union of the Wee,
but he could assure the Noble Lords that such Omen' not be
the case. That union was certainly the foundation of part o
the system in relation to tithe, and it appeared to him that
they would not be able to maintain the other parts of the
system if they adopted this measure,—( Hear, hear. ) It would
immediately be supposed by their assenting to it that it as
their intention to withdraw from the system ell-stealer.—
(Hear, lissr.) He begged their attention for a few minutes,
and he thought he would be able to show them that
the dioceses of St. Asa.oli and Bangor had no reason
whatever to complain of the whole arrangement. A
sum had been already given to augment the amount enjoyed
by the small livings, but he was not aware that any portion of
that came from the dioceses of St. Asaph and Bangor. He then
came to consider what the sacrifice would be to the diocese of
Bangor when this Act came into operation, and also what the
gain would be. The sacrifice which would be made by the
diocese of St. Asaph and Bangor would be altogether 4)750/.,
hut, on the other hand, they would acquire the advantages of
the sinecure rectories, which would amount to 3,9001. It was
intended that the several rectories all over England and Wales
should be reformed, and the revenues applied to the parochial
service of the dioceses in which they exist. But that Act went
further, for one clause of it enabled the Commissioners not to
wait till the demise of the present incumbents, but to purchase
the advowsons at any time, so that the proceeds might be ap-
plied by the Act for the purposes of parochial service. Another
advantage would be the gain of three archdeacons and an
increase of deans, chapters, and canoes, all of whom would be
properly provided for ; and they would also gain by the parochial
services being more efficiently attended to. He would now
come to the inconveniences of the proposedarrangement. The
two dioceses, when united, were not so large, nor did it con-
tain so many livings as many other dioceees', and he could not
understand why one Right Rev. Prelate could not perform
Without difficulty or inconvenience the same duties as another
Right Rev. Prelate, whose diocese happene.d to be in another