The Sun.
London, England, 1842-03-23 00:00:00

of the morality of the country. They prayed the House
therefore, not to pass into a law measures so unjust, so
impolitic, and so partial.
Tne SPEAKER was understood to say that no peti-
tion; against a tax pending in the House could be re-
ceived.
Air. WARD therefore withdrew his petition.
BREWERS' CASKS.

his opinion the Navy should 'be ruled by a
Commander-in-Chief ; and he believed there were
many others who coincided with him upon that subject.
But at all events he saw no reason why the navy should
not have an officer at its head, as was the case
with the Ordnance, and why that officer should
not be Master of the Board. He certainly
could see _no reason why the navy of the coun-
try should be ruled by a civilian, who divided the re-
sponsibility with the Board, while the one would
be ready to throw- -it - back upon -the other.
In - a late debate in the other House, Lord
CORN LAWS. - Minto had very clearly shown that there was some-
Mr. VILLIERS presented petitions from several thing wrong in the constructfon of the Board.
places in the counties of York and Durham, and the It appeared that Lord Minto had sent out an
Quakers of Darlington, praying for the total and imme- order to Sir Robert Stopford, • which was
diate repeal of the Corn-laws. liable to some misunderstanding, and that a desire very ne-
Mr. 31. J. O'CONNELL presented a petition from the turally existed upon his part as a Cabinet Minister that the
County of Kerry, praying that a Post-office communica- Board should not be fully acquainted with his intentions.-
tion should be instituted between the south of Ireland and The - Right Honourable Baronet, the other even-
Bristol, by way of Cork. Also a petition from Tralee, ing, had stated that the navy, while under the conduct of
praying that some measuremight be adopted with respect civilians, had been well managed, and in proof of that
to the Roads in Ireland. position he named several general actions which were
Mr. HOWARD presented a petition, praying that fought while the nary was under the conduct ofeivilians.
certain restrictions might be imposed on the importation He (Sir C. N.) was well aware three general actions had
of foreign flour (as we understood). been successfully fought while Lord Spencer was at the
Mr. BARCLAY presented a petition from the mem- head of the Admiralty- ; but he presumed they would
hers of the New Providence Building Society of Sunder- have been fought with the same effect though a
land, praying for an alteration in the Buildings' Regula- naeal officer had been in Lord . Spencer's posi-
tion Act. tion. The glorious battle of Trafalgar had been
1)r. BOWRING gave notice that to-morrow he fought under the Administration ofa civilian, and the ac-
should ask a question of the Right Hon. Baronet rela- don of Copenhagen, which was one of the most severely
tive to the ill-usage of the Bishop of Jerusalem. contested engagements in the annals of the British navy,
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL said, as the Hon. Member was fought under the Administration of Lord Spencer.
for Kilkenny was not in his place, he begged to post- Independently of what he had stated, he believed the
pone the motion of which he had given notice, relative to mutiny of the Nore would not have taken place if a
Crown witnesses in Ireland, till the 12th April next. naval officer had been at the head of the Admiralty.
Sir G. CLERK brought up, by the order of the House, That mutiny arose from the submissive remonstrance
a certain paper relating to Exchequer Bills, of the sailors being unattended to, which would not have
POOR OF STOCKPORT. been the case if an Admiral had been at the head
Mr. COBI)EN moved for a copy of the evidence taken of the Board. He asked, would the disasters which
by the Commissioners appointed to inquire into the poor happened to the Baltic fleet, and the loss of
of Stockport. 4,000 men have taken place in consequence of the
DORSETSHIRE MAGISTRATES. fleet being kept at improper seasons in that sea,
Mr. BANKES said he hoped the House would indulge if an Admiral had had the management of the navy.
him for a few moments while he.answered the question Dnring the American war, under the administration
put a few nights ago by the Hon. Member for Liskeard of Lord Melville, ships had been ssnt out
(Mr. C. Buller`. He (Mr. Buller) directed attention to improperly manned, and two or three frigates
some statements which appeared in the public press, and had been taken by the Americans, in conse-
he said he had other sources of information respecting quence of which the French took courage
them with regard to which he wished some inquiry and again appeared in the seas. He believed that in
should be made. The substance of his remarks was, 9 frigate actions in the American war, 4 had been drawn
that in the county of Dorsetshire the magistracy there battles. He should now mention a fact that might be
had expressed their disinclination to recognise the displeasing to Honourable Gentlemen on this side
practice of the Judges ordering public prosecutions by of the House, but when wrong was done, either
counsel at the assizes at the public expense, and he (Mr. by Whig or Tory, they ought to be told of it.
Buller) inferred that, in order to avoid that proceeding, It was under a cis hien, and during the administration
of the Judges, the magistracy had, in some instances, of the late Board of Admiralty that their fleet ran the
adopted a course which he considered improper, namely, risk of being defeated in the Mediterranean,
that of referring cases from the Assizes to the Sessions. from being improperly manned It was against
He was quite sure that the Magistrates had never taken the judgment of many naval officers who
such a course as that adverted to, for the sake of de- frequently wrote on the subject to tho Ad-
feeling by a side wind, or by any indirect miralty, but though the Board bad all the
means a proceeding of the Judges, which power they could never get the ships properly manned.
they (the Magistrates) might think inexpedient. They not only ran 'the danger of being defeated in the
But every assize they had remonstrated and would still Mediterranean, but their naval force. was not kept
remonstrate against the practice, because they up to its proper amount in the West Indies,
thought it an unnecessary expense not only to the when an overwhelming French force might have been
country, but to the public at large. They brought against them in the event of a war.
had requested the Judges to discriminate between What happened in the 'West Indies two years ago
what cases did require the assistance of counsel n:ight happen again; he did not think their re-
and those which did not ; but he was quite certain they lations with Foreign Powers were in a very comfort
had adopted no such course as had been adverted to, as able state ; and though- they reduced six sail of the line
the information he had received confirmed what he had he thought it was extremely dangerous to reduce a
Stated. The Hon. Member for Liskeard was correct single line -of-battle ship.—(Hear, hear.) He thought
in point of f'act, as some offenders were left over it a very great objection to the Admiralty that it
from the last assizes to the ensuing sessions ; should be a political board. It was perfectly well kre ,wn
but in that case there were five persons included in one that in this country it was morally impossible to resist
charge, which was a charge of swindling the poorby going politicalinfluence. Still, he thought there ought to be some
about the country and selling them articles on false sam- degree of decency in making promotions; this was formerly
pies. The magistrates were desirous that this case should the case, but had not been regarded since the passing
be brought under notice, but the prosecutors were so poor, of the Reform Bill. During the naval administration
that they stated if they were obliged to appear' against of Lord Melville the Dundasses were favoured; then came
the prisoners within the limited period fixed for the As- the Greys; since ',then had been the Greys and Russells;
sizes, they would not be able to find funds to carry. on but promotion among them had been much more moder. te
the prosecution. The Magistrates, however anxious than might have been expected. The Right Hon. Baronet
they might be that the case should proceed, did not had no relations in the navy. Then came Lord Minto.
think it right ,to provide the funds themselves, And what did he do ? Why, he ransacked all Scotland
and thus make themselves both judges and prosecutors ; to find an Elliot—(Great laughter)—and when he had
and, therefere, committed the prisoners to the sessions, exhausted Scotland, he sent to Plymouth in search of another
in order to give the poor prosecutors time to provide the Elliot—(Laughter)—and when he could find an Elliot nowhere
money for the prosecution by subscription. • This course else, he discovered one at the Cape of Geoct Hope. He (Sir
had not been attended with any inconvenience to the
theC-
E Napier)
lot ofhtahlethCat eel aoyf reGcoeoivdedHa letter, informing
oinfloardmninegv
never
rimse thatd
prisoners ; there being no prosecutors, they were dis-
a day in the navy, wasr taken and mulle atorekeeper of Halifvaex,
charged by the Judges on the gaol delivery. a post that should have been filled by a naval officer.—( Hear
He would merely advert to the charge of Mr. Jus- hear.) He hoped the present Nob!e Lord Auld not follow
tice Erskine to the jury. He recognised the peaceable that example. He (Sir C. Napier) had no objection to Lord
condition of the people. He ' (Mr. Bankes) trusted Grey, or any other Minister, promoting a relative of his, so
that it would not be allowed to go forth to the public long as they were deserving; and he must say that Captain
that in the county of Dorsetshire, more than any G. Grey was a very excellent and gallant officer, as was also
other county, -the Magistrates had neglected their 'his brother. But what he (Sir C. Napier) complaieed of was,
duty,' and still less that they should be actuated by the cruel partiality shown in some of these promotions. Captain
improper motives in discharging those duties. Grey joined the Jupiter at the same time with another young
Mr. C. BUTLER said he had merely alluded to the man, named, Dayis. Mr Grey was made post-captain eight
inconvenience which had resulted; he wished to state varrsi;.a
segve, and now
v‘heocommanudetdhaiisesveecronhdeefrigaten,d while
is, against h m no
ifa l • n fou , fter
that he had no intention whatever to make any attack have ..
eyingserved seventeen years n th h e
navy, gave up the service
upon the Magistrates of Dorsetshire. in disgust, and was now in the coast-guard, which shut him
PRIVILEGE.. - out from toe. late- promotion, justly called charity promotion.
John Ashworth having been brought to the Bar of The Gall nt Admiral opposite knew well that he ( Sir C.
the House, Napier) was telling the truth. Many a time had he seen the
,
The SPEAKER said—" John Ashworth, the House Gallant Officer go up the Admiralty stairs with a heavy he-rt,
has been informed by a report of the Select Committe and come down with a broken one. For the improvement of
appointed to try and determine a petition against these defects he (Sir C. Napier) proposed one plan—that was,
the return of the Meinber for the Borough of purchase. It was well known, that for every three vacancies
Clitheroe, that you on Friday last, interrupted only one was promoted ; that was, that for three men that went
, the procedings, and attempted to influence the witnesses. outl of the world, the Admiralty could bring in one in their
aces.—( Hear, hear, and laughter.) In f a ,ct under the pre.
What have you to say in explanation of your conduct ?" p
sent system, the First Lord of the Admiralty had the greatest
The prisoner—l have nothing to say, ;Sir, only that I difficulty in squeezing in an old officer into the list of promo-
am very sorry for what 1 have done. tions. If the rule which he proposed for permitting the sale
The SPEAKER having inquired if any Hon. Member of commissions were to take place, under the regulation of the
wished to put any question to the prisoner, and no Admiralty, these evils would be obviated. He (Sir C. Napier)
answer having been returned, lie was ordered to with- would propose that no man should be promoted from the rank
draw, and withdrew accordingly. of lieutenant to that of commander without purchase, unless,
Sir ROBERT INGLIS said, as a Member of the he had served five years afloat, and that no commander should
Committee on the Clitheroe petition, he had witnessed be promoted to the rank of captain without purchase, . unless he
the conduct of the party who had been placed at the
enablesould havet Fanesrtvtdorfidvteo yseaarstoafLoaotsse
who
oisa e regulationdto him would
forul d
bar. The individual having professed his sorrow at romotion that heuld nyot promote themitiless they had
what had taken place, he would now move that he be t e prope u t at if t
ey serve two years as
pserved h ' time• bt h h d -
discharged. lieutenant, or two as commander, they might purchase. By
An HON. MEMBER seconded the motion. these means the ; ressure for promotion would be taken off the
Lord GRANVILLE ,SOMERSET thought that, Admiralty. and they would be enabled to promote some of
under the circumstances, it was not sufficient merely to those who knew a great deal, as well as those who knew no-
bring the prisoner to the bar of the House. thing. He did not wish to bring the army down to the level
Sir ROBERT PEEL said he knew nothing whatever of the navy, but he thought it hard upon the navy, that, at the
of the individual's offence, except what had been last promotion, seventy-five general officers should have been
stated by Honourable Members on that occasion ; promoted,,di andie only forty eLpttaaiianstbsehoHulda have
b doing
made
first
twoomhguneloer3
but if this person had misconducted himself thamniralsti.cling to thew ages of the officers of °these
before the Committee, and offered such obstruction to its on the list of captains. There were only' nine under fifty
proceedings, as would warrant his being called to the pars of age. Was it possible that those men could do their
bar, though he would be very much indisposed te duty with the zeal and ability of younger men ? Did not that
severity, he thought the proper course would be that show the absolute necessity for a retired list. (The Gallant
lie should receive a reprimand. He thought that would Commodore then read an extract from Lord Collingwood's
be perfectly in order.—(Hear, hear.) - letters, for the purpose of showing the ill-treatment the navy
Sir GEORGE GREY thought that if the party were had received from the Admiralty in Lord Collingwood's time.)
admonished by the Speaker of the impropriety of hi: The retired list which he meant to propose was simely to in-
Conduct, it would have a beneficial effect, and prevent crease the number of out-pensioners of Greenwich Hospital,
who now get 801. a year in addition to their pay. -He only asked
the recurrence of similar conduct. to have them increased from ten to one hundred, and that thee
. The SPEAKER having put the question,
Mr. LABOUCHERE thought the prisoner ought not should receive 1001. a year each, instead of 801., those pensions
e.-s were first lieutenants in the war tisane, and were suffered to
to be dismissed without sonic notice being taken of hi: remain on the shelf ever since, with scarcely the meant of hlip-
offence. A reprimand from the Speaker would be to( porting themselves and their families. He effetely wished the
serious a punishment in his (Mr. Labouchere's) opiniei louse to give a small sum as retiring pay, and that could be
for the offence committed, but the prisoner might receive- divided by the Admiralty amongst the most efficient officers
an admonition on the impropriety of his conduct. who had spent their lives in the service. He had stated the
Mr. HARDY said that the offence of the prisoner con- ease of one midshipman who bad been seventeen years in the
sisted in this : A witness had been under examination service, against whom no complaint whatever could be ffiade;
bUT,hferttmulwabllerheofhmadid seen,shiP-
let this Committee, and was extremely reluctant to give: until at last he quitted it in disgusts
dt-nneTkwieore now very mach reduced,
himself wwne,lllie tshoouugldt ttita‘t nn midshipman who lead
. con '
acted
evidence, looking round frequently zs if for a signal from
years.
-)
some one in the room, as if to learn whether hr wouls '
give an answer to the questions proposed to him in his vice as m'dshipman longer than six
capacity as witness. On one of the occasions of the wit- another point of great impo: tance was the menhir* of the
ness looking round, the prisoner, who was in the room, tavy. He believed the; within the lest eighteeh months there
lifted up his head, and, addressing the witness, said. had been the greatest difficulty In obtaining men. The Qceen
"don't answer any questions." That caused great `tad been detained six or Seven months from an inability to
interruption to the proceedings of the Committee ; anc: :omplete her complement of men, and had only lately veiled'
the Members composing it were obliged to put off the Ste trusted that measures would be adopted btit the GoVernment
business before them, for the purpose of considering what to remedy an evil which must be attended with Such injurious
:onsequences to the country. He belleted thit theite whine 6w
was to be done with the prisoner under existing
small ships stationed at Liverpool, Newcuttlel Ill'gtol, and
circumstances.
idler ports, for the purpose of supplying fete'
deficiency • but he
Mr. CARDWELL said, that although not in any
thought there was another ttlede which might also be adopted.
way connected with the individual who had beet By an Act of the reign of Queen Anne, the overseers Of the '
called to the bar ; yet he (Mr. Cardwell) was the onl) poor were authorised to bind poor parish boys is 44n-entices
person in that House upon whom he might look as ,eo the merchant service. He thought thole Very 'eicelleht ierru
an advocate ; and he therefore felt bound to say, Os Lotion, but might it net be tarried still f4-thel• ?, let.Vit not over-
behalf of the prisoner, that he was a person totally do- ears of the poor be authorised to aptkrehlllle boys to the mere:taut
not be -„,,
void of education, and one not likely to be aware that he service for four years, with t condition that at that time they
4 three years, in order
was committing an offence on the occasion referred to. should be transferred to a man-of-war for an additional Retied
could yet. see
He was also dependent upon his own exertions incomplete their naval edaeatlen ?He
Sio objection to such an AtrWligiWitit. It could
for his daily bread, and had, in consequence,
gmatised as pressing to ttize 1 poet- ledy,sello had ttIS
suffered severely from the circumstances which lee,
tome, and bind him to a profes4iou,=-(Hein) ) Migiand, as a
naritime country. depended tetieely u`yon her seamen ; it was
to his being summoned to the bar of the Howe,
'endi.vitiu'alil; impossible, therefore, to provide too carefully for the necessities
(Mr. Cardwell) therefore trusted that the..
etba;e..',doo7ik'h: Government ot!itht to pay
question would meet the induleent
6 .. consideration of the if the naval service.---i(t101
House.
mwerien oharbour,
.after bellig t ceittin tine
e little snore attente-;
site
s7;i:tnhea
se:'l'Ltna. —,
•
pecitis tit employment to
employedoviagtbitths the Adekyileis es tope-
a few words 4:: um Mr. BARNARD,I rd! in the Befell! stations.
hineda(cSiairgCre.rNsou.)s
After t
The motion ";as
put and carried, when John Ashworth
makers, &c., instead of
was brourt4 to the Bite in custody of the Serjeant-iii..
twpoearssec Ile
ratatt
,anteailstl ve.nuet
do e
haven et teadw
wonildhertfhuleeffneacytyin
Arin-d.
The SPEAKER said—John Ashworth, any interrup-
tion of the proceedings of this House, or of the proceed- enter
.h
_ervice. There was another evil to which he waild
_ dvert. At the end of the war ,nsions of Pell illy Wei', _ _

Mr. WARD presented a petition from the Brewers in
Sheffield, praying that measures might be taken to pre-
vent brewers casks being &strained for their cus-
tomers' rents.

ings of a Committee of this House, can only be regarded
as contempt of its authority', and your in-
stance the case was mach aggravated by. „the
time and circumstances under which the inter-
ruption was caused, by improperly interfering, with the
witness' under examination, and attempting to subvert
the endS of justice. Such conduct as this can not pas:
without the censure of the House. But the House, always
anxious to act with lenity and fbrboarttnee, and taking
into consideration the apology whlch you have expressed,
and believing that you were not acting on a preconcerted
determination, trusts that this reprimand will be
a warning to others, that this• House will not again sc
leniently look over a similar offence. You are now dis-
charged from your attendance on this House.
Mr. Ashworth then bowed to the House and withdrew.
Sir H. PEEL rose to move that the tpraker's address
be entered on the Journals 13f the House.
The motion was sesontied, and carried with cheers,
STATE OF TIIE NAVY.
Sir CHARLES NAPIER in rising to bring the
•

aye....3:4;*teirtee vGerey.
14-oan".llfitr fourteen years
liberally allowedthe tdoeyseamireehnalvvitrha-edystethr:V
penai,d `iet ft
etiertvtie Lot a t Wv e hyt yg.:.,teenane:
avereardnrsmi.tewnTatshoanf That ceer°taninlerYt tsot
'lordship. If they wOill'd gto to seamen who hadehrid-
rears' service small pension, which should be increased at the
end of every succeeding five years, so that the seaman might look
forward to something like comfort in his old age, they would be
doing what was but just, and would furnish motivei to oeathen
in the merchant service to enter the navy.- There was attOther
subject to which he vroukf call the attention of the Holm It
was one that required a great degree of ernsideratiOti. He
meant pensions to officers for wounds. It was not known to
the House that by the naval instructions, and according to an
,rder of the Queen in Council, her • Majesty reserved to
•erself the right of granting pensions to officers whose
wounds in the s' rvice might entitle thent to stir h a Min-
sideration. 'I he Admiralty, however, about 13b yearts igo, had
rade a regulation directing that no wOundtd efficer should
rFF-
reive a pension for his wounds, unless these wound* ia:!apaci-
tated him as much as would the loss Of a limb; and that where
his wounds were not of such a nature, he should only receive a
year's' ' Now that was an unjust and unfair regulation. If

resolution was to the effect, That in the appointments to the .
Board of Admiralty the advantage of having that Board com-
posed of naval officers, should be -onside; ed as well as that of hav-
ing
a naval officer at the Board of Ordnance. The second was,
That it was the recernmendation of the House that previous to
the preparation of the estimate up to 1e44, a plan should be
adopted to reward old and meritorious officers. The third was,
That it was the opinion of the House, that, with a-view to eco-
nomy, and to reward the services of deserving naval men, that
naval civil situations should be filled up as mush as possible by
naval officers, petty officers, and seamen, according to their re-
spective capabilities, and that a preference in filling up vacan-
cies in the docka ds should be given to them.—(Cheers.)
Mr. WAKLEY seconded the resolutions.
The question having been put,
Sir JAMES GRA HAM rose and said, that after the frank
and manly, and patriotic manner in which the Gallant Officer
who had just at down, had brought under the consideratioe of
the House, one of the most important subjec's which mid oc-
cupy their attention, it was unnecessary that he should have pre-
faced his speech with the observations with which he hat corn-
menced, namely, that he did not intend to consider that as a
personal or party question._(Hs'a:, hear.) Ihe matter was
one upon which the whole nati n, awl they, as the representa-
tives of the nation, felt the deepest interest—an interest far be-
yond all party consideration. While the greatness and power
.of this country depended so moth upon her naval supremacy.
it was their bounden duty to attend to every suggestion which
might be offered from any quarter for the benefit of the
naval service. But any recommendations coming from
an authority so high and so respected as that of the Gallant
Officer was entitled to peculiar consideration.—( Hear, hear. )
He would now endeavour an shortly as he could to deal with
the various topics introduced into his speech by the Gallant
Officer ; but he should first say that he thought he owed some
apology to the House for addressing them on that occasion. If
he did not feel that his former experience had put him in yes.
session of some information upon the subject, he should not
have ventured to deal with such a subject. He was bound to
state that with a due regard to the public service, and with a
most anxious feeling that no decision should be taken upon a
subject of such vital importance which could be inconsistent
with the interests of the state, he could not coircide in the
opinions advocated by the Gallant Officer. The first point
with which he would deal was the question -of the advantage
to be derived by the public from the exclusive services
of a naval officer at the head of the Board of Admiralty. The 1
Gallant officer drew his anolegy upon that point from the Corn-
mander-in-Chief of the army ; but he shou'd at once demur
to the ar.alogy. It was detective in one striking particular.
The Sovereign devolved the whole command of tee navy on
the Board of Admiralty, to whom the whole prerogative, as
regarded that branch of the service was c rrernitted. Bet n ith
respect to the army the reverse was the fact. The Crown did
not surrender to the Commander-in-Chief any portion of its
prerogative as regarded the army. The whose discipline of
the army came under the cognizance of the Crown, amid
all the movetnents of troops were guided by her
Majesty, through hsr Secretary of State. With respect
to the navy, however, the case was entirely different.
But her Majesty exercised no control over naval officers and
the whole movement r f ships and everything that regarded
them, was in the hands of the Board of Admiralty. It was re-
markable that while the Gallant Officer was anxious to have the
navy placed in a position analogous I o that of the army, seve-
ral officers, who were sitting on the same side, were desirous,
most indiscreetly and unwisely in his opinion, to adopt the ana-
logy of the army. The Hon. and Gallant Officer had.said
that the responsibility of the First Lord of the Admiralty was
an imperfect respan,ibility, but that prop ition he (Sir
James Graham) deied.—(Cheess ) Both constitutionally
and - legs ly. the First Lord. of the Adm raey
was responsible, and indeed exclusively responsible to Parlia-
ment and the public, for his management of naval affairs. There
was rem feet proof of that, for in 1782, heft). e the great
struggle on the India Bill took plaee, the conduct. of the Ad-
miralty was made the subject of discussion in both Houses of
Parliament. Mr. Fox made a motion, which reflected the
greatest censure on the Board of Admiralty. A motion of a
similar nature was made in the House of Lords, and Loral
Sandwich, who was at the head of the Admiralty, did not
screen himself under the Board, but he manfully met
the charge, and took upon himself the exclusive respon-
sibility of the charges against which he successfully contended.
He would also expaess his strong opinion that the exclusive
patronage would be retained by the person at the head of the
Board of Admiralty, for the proper distribution of which he
was exclusively responsible. The Hn. and Gallant Officer
had let fall some expressions which he heard with regret, re-
specting the promotion of two young officers in the navy, the
two Captains Grey, relatives of the Noble Lord opposite (Lord
Howick. ) They had the greatest claims on the naval service
of the country. their father being First Lot d of the Admiraly,
and to whom the greatest credit was due for the many improve-
ments he introduced inteethe navalservice, and who, in his old
age, might console himself with the reflection of being the
most respected, as he (Sir James Graham) knew to be the
most honest Statesman which this country ever produced.
The Hon . and Gallant Officer had told them that a First Lord
of the Admiralty ought to be responsible for the promotions
they recommended. What, he would ask, could- be more re-
sponsibility, than that of a First Lord of the Admiralty, who
was likely to be called to account by this-and the other House
of Parliament, for the manner in which he had bestowed pro-
motion? lam bound also to state, that though the knowledge
of naval affairs was of the utmost importance in the head of
the Board of Admiralty, yet when it was recollected how large
a portion of the civil administration was connected with that
high office, it would be almost impossible, admitting thsir ta-
lents, their industry, and indefatigable zeal in the public ser-
vice, that it would be be better filled by a naval officer.
He must be permitted, to say, that a knowledge of
civil affairs, in the office of First Lord cf the
Admiralty was not of less paramount importance
to the country than a knowledge of naval matters.
Was it wise, then, under all the circumstances, to restrict the
choice of the First Lord to the narrow ground of the naval
service? There are, no doubt, come naval officers who were
most competent to fill office of First Lord of the Admi-
ralty, and it- was advisable that the Crown in such cases should
select them instead of civilians ; but, he would ask, was it
wise, by a resolution of the House, to tie up the discretion of
the Crown, by restricting all civilians from the office, and nar •
rowing the choice to the few naval officers who might be com-
petent to discharge the office of First Lord of the Admiralty.
He should not ect fairly by the House if he stopped here ,• he
was bound to state his full o?i ion of the subject. The
Honourable and Gallant Officer had touched on the subject
of promotion. The distribution of promotion was an im-
portant part of the duty of a First Lord, but he must be per-
mitted to state his opinion, that, while a civilian was First Lord
Of the Admit alty, acting under a sense of responsibility as to
the patronage Which he admitted attached to the office, he would
be more likely to act with strict impartiality to the whole pro-
fes:ion, than a naval officer, upon whom political influence would
operate AS surely and as extensively as on a civilian, while,
superadded to that influense, would always be the honest, but
strong and irresistible influence of attachment to messmates or
follon ers, which he could assure the Honourable and
Gallant Officer would greatly preponderate over the ad-
vantages that might be derived by the navy from having
a man of their own profession at the heikl of the Admiralty,
He would go further and say, that if the opinion of the whole
profession were taken, whether a naval officer ehou'd be exclu-
sively placed at the head of the Naval Administration, it was
les conviction that the strong opinion of the profession would
be against it. He (Sir J. a sham) did not think it necessary
to follow the Hon. and Gallant Officer through all his points,
for he adverted a great deal to former Administratietis; but he
(Sir J. Graham) would allude to his remark on the communi-
cation of the Order of the Cabinet by the First Lord of the Ad-
miralty, by private letter to Sir R. Stopford. Technically. this
might not have been very proper, but it was according to usage,
and not inconsistent with censtitteional practice. There were
several Gallant Officers opposite who must Well know that such
a mode of intercourse between the Firet Lord of the Adnriie
ratty and a Cotemander-insChief, wart tilt ilaceffitridni Vie
Gellane,Officer thought that, at a critical period, the orders to a
Commander-in-Chief, on a foreign station, should be sent only
by direction of the Board of Admiralty. There could be no
greater error than this. All naval operations were carried on
in a different mode. The Board of Admiralty were not allotted
to be cognitant riS freat bleat operations froth tithe 1.6 timer
Whtln the eipe it oh agaieet Copenhagen was concerted,
secresy was of the utmost importance. The Cabinet only were
aware of its precise destination ; and they thought that secresy
' only could be maintained by the Board of Admiralty informing
Lord Gambier that they should issue their orders thrpugh the
Secietary of State Mthe liofite Depailreent. This liad bean
time practice in other cases, where secresy and dispatch were
necessary. Lord Minto was not therefore fairly liable to cen-
sure in this instance. The lion. and Gallant Officer said,
our naval tuccesses chiefly took lace under the president yof
.civilians at the Admiralty ; but l istery did net confirm this;
[Comritoclere Napier said he bad it' mated tint three actienehad
beet' gained under civilians, and two under naval officers.]
Now with regard to the battle of Trafalgar, it was perfectly
true that that glorious victory had been gained under the
naval administration of Lord Barham ; but it was equally true
that all the greet f teearatiens foe that gitirione eiettiry had
been Made -by, Lad Bailtioa's preeerresible ,Loret Melville.
Lord, Melliille.had itultnie oillc onl the Ajiril pfecedifig the
Octoteet in *hleh the battle had been fought, and the merit of
the preparations for that great battle was due to Lord
Melville's naval atiminieration. The Gallant Officer had
talked of Lord HOIST'S . glnritee ftetlere. Now it was
perfikttly hive that at. the time {hat ticiiiiii wai fotight,
Ur' KbiPell. was P,iiit iiit_rd 414 Ailmiliity; hitt Eofil Kti-
Mas ,4 lust teerol'e succeeded Lord Sandwich, and in that
tatest, to which he had alluded in the other House of Par-
liament, Lord Sandwich had -claimed the merit of that victory
for himself and his colleagues and Lord .Nnrth hime
self jiad seed to the. teen, Administration; 41 t is true
you have gained the eieteix, but the yet relight., withPhilipli tredpie." Th., rnerft of bolt +Peel!, has Neon=
tektablt dtte kbi IX', not aom,nistratien of Lord Sandwich,
While he was on that subject, be would take the opportunity
of relating to the House one fact. He. (Sir James Graham)
hale lied,tt
,dvil,,iilnncttibrs,eleiteiv,:lei %,:po.etsistan
CfPdt and
tiliatapitthselirSieteliP elliritti his late
Majesty king, Wilhite the FO4rth.e.e(Cheeis ) Ills late
,Mae
teeteoe.t pe..e.dile_ 410 fm that ped,fe. s 7.
ee tele Crown ef Ens he
jest} hado 4ahlit taiire;iltitt
4tlitieehst
ber —( Loud cheers.)
considered it an honour to be a m_
the honour of beieg, iettodocedAr) e
Waist total of tot: Adinsaali' iqs
J. Gllith S6intiiVel/t es '' .I Graham) and iaiaYii
lea.jek y a addressed_ film (Sir J.., , that he
lie (Sir James Graham) remembehriedelanitthealit;alhesettyn
01141
hh,esdtli,saidr
,fiee- hear en.mind two great. exam-

_
(Sir J.
pc i.,aiJe.i4G;phita:a)iistiltdocildt :lbwyqbssia..ibseina.latr:ii.l6-
hi-Eii---ty:
I,n;ci
.aivd...ais:eiiceciesr
ii
plea in ;the ailminiAtratiph 't)f ttiAl ,strabl• :N""t .4-o*•alpsi
No, His ISlajeity had said thtt the two great examples to
which he referred were- Lori),
1 (3_prelirlifbilmrittel id6.°d- I.ll4arinti iit: ciOntii-1
and, certainlyy *her) lie Oil.
idilirdstraikin tit Ltird Sticittdr, and'onsid6reti the great
neat exploits Which had been
had souttrrinsoetitintitte:n
4--ahttilittive
tiituirciriiiibctiihlterivrafiri:nteog:ol.
iobflohpititrepBB:
ncittce l.lib iildmbili6 dlfti6ultiei v hilt Lurpil Spacer
Which he had t 1 xhiLiteci-:-the .cohotfi.dt76cbwriigthhtweslitieiliii hoeihrdhclitivna:
fitidoenncoefhLadorl(eids—pehnececrouLdnooltobiit consider the Havel ailmlnist fa.
annals.—(Hear, heai.).„. 1% 1-. Pktt wtit no. ftlean atithnrity dti
live Velful*Vb ilierits a direfent naval adillinistiatibtis. _t 4as
imptissible to mentibu the name Of Lord St. Vincent without
aatiasiletiglng the akalitudh t4t, Wei title td Ittit frOth the
hatir. Lgrd St;,VitiCint A 4 s Flat Ord ht (lib Ailintralt
hi. t:E.,i pleniftide of his naval repulat.on, at !he period when hi 3;
well-earned fame gave him unbounded influence over the ser-
vice; and yet, 10. ling to Lord St. Vincent's nasal administra-
tion, it was impossible not to admit, that it had not been for-
t ' .h( Tear 1804, after the experience which

tii.selniraevr,eitaldtlm)einfiiiil--
py. - :unate. Mr. Pitt, in the y--
ho had had of the relative'merits of the dill rent naval administra
hehad the greatest est eein for
an officer was wounded in the leg, so as to mike that leg short-
er by four inches, he was entitled, according to the above reu-
lation, to a pension ; but if he had ultimately broken, and also, itoiownsirogfolrinrdionSto.nVtihnecemnteraintdofol
LordLor Lord
tS.PVe innere:eln,
in consequence, shortened his other leg, so as to put irm on an tration :—" He (Mr. Pitt) could not be guilty of the hypocrisy
even keel, he would not be entitled to a pension at a11.._ to sly that that departure was wise;
(Hear.) He thought he had now gone over all that it was ne- I the Noble Lord (St. Vincent), but it was in fulfilment of his
cessary. for him to say with regard to his opinions of the navy. I (Mr. Pitt's) duty, as a Monti, r of the British Parliament, to
He particularly agreed with the lion. Gentleman opposite in
, say that he did not approve of his Lordship's appointment as
the steps which he had taken to man the navy.—(Loud First Lord of the Admiralty. He admired the Noble Lord's
cries of " Hcar, hear.) But he did not at all agree with talent, and the glorious victories he achieved ;to him (Lord St.
the steps the Right Hon. Baronet had taken to fill the Exchequer. Vincent) the British people were indebted for shedding lustre
He would now make a statement which he Wished to go forth upon their country ; he believed that when h's Lordship took
to the public, and to foreign nations, because he had observed upon himself the direction of the naval affairs, the public ser-
a good deal of crowirg in consequence of what be had said vice would have derived great benefit from his skill and ex-
about the British navy being improperly manned. He would feriene he believed that the Noble Lord's name was in itself
tell the public, and all the nations an the world, that as the a tower of strength, but be was- apt to think, that between
British navy was manned at present, that- they had better his Lordship, as Commander on the seas, and as First Lord of
keep themselves quiet on that score.--(Cheers and laughter.)
the Admiralty there was a very vast diferetiee As a great and
He had now three resolutions which he should read to the successful naval commander, 1.0 person could hesitate to ad.
House, and he should divide the House on ear!i of them sepa- mire the Noble Lord, bat hr (Mr. Pitt) would not shrink
ratel). They were drawn up very nacduratei; —not that he from a duty in censuring the Noble Lord when presiding at
drew them up himself, 1;0 still they were moderate. His first the Board of Admiralty, as First Lord of the Treasury.