The Sun.
London, England, 1842-04-14 00:00:00

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,"PresFed an opinion, to the effect that the new tariT
,nuld n•,t have the ,-fleet , f reducing the prie,
! ot , '•-• :
bunt he Bail ~.,•' tl-, be 6; thin, the c,,n,-•:-il• i i
~.. nge would not affect the holm inarttet so seriously as
:' "ulllQ_ parties seemed to apprehend.
k:,:,,04* tr. GRAHAM said, that he did not know that he
44g,nid have thought it necesssry to tuble the House
41 any observations upon the subject under its consi-
kt:or_ation, if the Noble Lord, the Member for London,
t.,424 not in his pla,e, last night, in a very pointed man-
4, 2: e.!.pressed some surprise that he (Sir J. Graltam)
41 remained silent during that discussion. The No ,le
tied was very complimentary, in singling him
kli
.Z-214 a person whose bounden duty it was to
iti,,,ti eas the House. For his part, he should have
l'-'ll pee'ectly willing not that he denied the
likeeet 'ie '
ita ability which signalised the speech of the Hon.
'it„ umber, for Liskeard on last night ; but he should
*';..- e been perfectly willing to rest the case of the Go-
i,,rnaient npon the speeches delivered by his colleague.;
~...01 the two former evenings. He had not the slightest
311 to prolong those debates, which he had reason to
A_ ;;`'believe, upon testimony which was undoubted, had a
-.,rect tendency, in that preliminary stage of the pro--
t. eleclings materially to injure great public interests.—
izi'en,r, hear.) Testimony to that effoct had been given
It`Le House by the Hon. Member for London ; it had
."711 given again directly that evening by the Noble
rd the Member for Liverpool ; and it had not
TIT dissembled by the Honourable Member for
,i) 44. If he mistook not it was also acknowledged
•:./13; the Honourable Member for Leeds, wh opene
fod
~y e debate that evening The Honourable Meo mber r
~,..441skeard last night observed, that there had not been a
~,'''Follg indication of public feeling with regard to the
iceasures which her Majesty's Government had intro-
; teed;' and that had been, he believed, still more explicitly ~.
• '7"'"uwlcdged by the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat
;,,4,?Wn• Indeed, it would appear, that all expectation of a
11:ecessful opposition to the proposal of the Government.
' )1().' under consideration. had been ab indorsed. Tll,
er. -see .r. .
~, • srentleman, the Member for Lambeth, had only looked
ward%--,, to the future collection of the tax; and while he ad-
illfttal that the question of its position was virtually carried, his
4 ite,s, were merely directed to the effect which might be pro.
'141,--74,_ by its collection. He saw opposite a Right Hon. Gen-
'• 7vau (Mr. F. Maule) who had heen most anxions before the
Lster recess that the discussion should be postponed—( Hear,
''al,;74l')--in order that he might have an opportunity of visiting
te,ireastituents, for the purpose of having their opinions upon
e t tstahject.—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") No doubt the
14:"VIlit Hon. Gentleman had had that happy opportunity afforded
lt.,:111--( Hear, hear. )
A
". P. Al AULE—You misrepresent me
. .I,;'"r„,, J. GRAHAM continued.—The Right Hon. Gentleman
,- re.-a have an opportunity of stating to the House how the
•:147teally stood. He (Sir J. Graham) had been told that
,!`,,,, ,Right Hon. Gentleman had visited his constituents in Perth,
'''' '44;41e had further been informed that very distinct opinions
'4.lhe e expressed to the Right Hon. jesetleman with respect to
-,ilietaeasures of her Majesty's Government.—( Hear, hear. )
,t! ki had been told that the Right Hon. Gentleman had held a
-et,'•!ate meeting to consider those measures, composed of his
.b._`-"ate friends, and that among them, the Right Hon. Gentle-
'' found found himself in a considerable minority—( Loud cheers
`j f. the Ministerial benches)—but that he was assured, that,
th he ventured to call a public meeting in the city of Perth, in
iPPen air, he would have found—to use the expression of his
]iis It J. Graham's) Noble Friend—that the unhappy budget
rt.!lffe.late Ministry; of which he had bean a Member, as con-
-1 .esed with the measures brought forward by her Majesty's
a',-""ernment, would be again " scouted," as it had been at the
;,.moral election ; and that the measures proposed by the pre-
RS Government would have received the sanction of an over-
-4,4eltlaing mejority of the population of the city which
'at represented.—(Cheers from the Ministerial benches. )
e'slt he confessed, was only what he had expected from the
,e'liii), of Perth. Rut what had the Hon. Member for Salford
.''? He frankly told them that he partook of the wish af
11'"'
I'oHon. Members on his side of the House, that the question
kistlld not be hurried over before Easter, but that an opportu-
:ssLahould be given for the expression of public opinion. The
1--',;(1- Gentleman had also visited his constituents ; and what
lilt the acknowledgment which he made ? Why he, too, had,
~,,‹ollaed, abandoned all hope of present success in his oppo-
eitki ato the proposal of the Government. He said that in the
1 ittls of Manchester there was a marvellous apathy upon the
Aileete-a strange sign of apathy, however, was afforded by
4Taet that a petition had been signed by 24,000 inhabitants
'l,...wia borough in favour of the measure. —( " Hear, hear,"
Se4'" the Ministerial benches.) No public meeting had, how-
-I,Bl'2:teen held in that great centre of commercial arid manu-
ciiag industry, to take the sense of the community upon
'4.1 uSabject.
.\-1147s BROTHERTON said that a meeting had been held at
V. R.:4 own-ball.
k,kw J. GRAHAM continued—Yes; but he had yet to
lit that a meeting had been held in '
Stephenson-square, in
Vaehester to consider the proposal,- and he had yet to learn
q
, Illtt totta it majority ere was a mority of people, having under 150/. a year
lte t
41443 e' who were dissatisfied with the p,oposal, or that the
qv 'we, whieh had been introduced specially for the relief of
lass, was obnoxious in the opinion of the inhabitants of
AZehester and ill-calculated to receive their support. The
O:Gentleman, the Member for Lambeth, following in the
Vof the .Member for Liskeard, had been pleased to com-
• l'' Upon what he termed the glaring inconsistency of
targuments used on that (the Ministerial) side
e • '441 House. The Honourable Member . for Liskeard
'ted
e Mid, that when Honourable Members on his side
•tr N., the tax an inquisitorial one, they were met with a cry of
ellts7aa f" and when they talked of its injustice, the answer
:IlieefAffghanistan." Again, the Hon. Gentleman said that
170 etated that the proposed alterations in the tariff would be
)4,-ative in diminishing the price of provisions—that it would
kaisLa delusion to suppose that they would produce such an
11111- while others held oat great expectations that the re-
' in in the price of the articles of consumption weuld afford
khZ4„Pensation,for the proposed income tax. Now, these were
iiiVqous entirely of degree. The Hon. Gentleman had, a1'4%14/P
'4%14/P unintentionally, no doubt, misrepeesented his (Sir J.
iNsf:All's) Noble Friend, the Secretary for Ireland. His
411/4 =Friend had not said that the tariff, as a scale of duties at-
,ilitt.4. the price of provisions, would be utterly inoperative ;
Aral had said that the apprehensions that the proposed changes
Itlisin be ruinous to the agriculturists of this country, were en-
iltetY groundless. His Noble Friend, however, had novo:-
11 the that the removal of prohibitory duties upon articles
t t
1t440 first necessity would be utterly inoperative, and that no
''' tion in prices would follow. He contended that her Ma-
tkrtt's Government had acted prudently and wisely in yielding
1-14sp!t necessity of the time—( Hear, bear)—and to the wants of
. Idly increasing population—(Hear, hear)—and in taking
' tive measures gradually to reduce the price of corn, of
e and of other articles of the first necessity. He said that
i,,' `"rae had arrived when it was indispensable that these
tta
'Se • should be done—( Hear, hear)—not only for the sake of
'h,41,4-eat body of the consumers, but for the sake of property
.147, —( Hear, hear.) He should observe, first of all, that
4,olereased value of money had necessarily reduced the no-
-tit7l,. value of wages ; and again, the rapid increase in popula-
ell increased the supply of labour. The great improve-
in Machinery, while those improvements were ultimately
L ' ial in increasing the demand for labour, had also had a
'55,.1.411q, for a time at least, to throw large masses
:4`l4,.__'; Manufacturing districts out of employment.—( Hear. )
kw,. fiction in wages, would, no doubt, if it came on hastily,
l
ltet the distress of the people ; but the measure intro-
by Government would have the effect of gradually
Lal ' the price of articles of consumption.—(C.iies
"1( tear, hear." He had no apprehension that it
B."44ifeet to an extent that would be dangerous, or
-"itsllersudden as to injure industry, but he did maintain
tad .so
Z Price of articles of consumption would be moderately
.Llttli by the operation of the measure now proposed by Go •
„Ns,' e4t- He was persuaded, let that matter be debated and
.111.7Sedin Parliament or out of it, that opinion would pre-
wei •,..he believed that the opinion was fixed and rooted, that
See,`"sPosed tariff, taken in conjunction with the present
'etti-e ef taxation, was the only one calculated to promote the
Snetst of the great body of the people, and the bulk of the
'sfl )44ity.—( Hear. ) It was upon that ground that it
I§,ii"eee, ived his support—(lronical cheers from the Oppo-
14....1'enches)--upon that ground, it was, that he thought
. freal should be made to the country on the subject,
:tt ,°;'eturn to the inconsistencies of the arguments with which
eltrs`,,,lne Ministerial) side of the House were charged. Let
;7111,-110W him to comment on some still greater inconsistencies
Nt•isatiatiments urged on the other side. It was said by some
tittNosle income tax was a war tax, and only to be regarded as
used in time of war. The Right Hon. Gen-
NZ, the Lord Mayor of Dublin, had distinctly used tit at
}cent- It was also asserted in a resolution by the Noble
'Pe Lord J. Russell). The Noble Lord asserted these
114;-•,. that it has hitherto beencAlsidered as the financial
b,,,, of the nation in time of war ;" clearly pointing out that
ki-.°.1 a war tax. Now, what was the opinion of Hon .
11 -‘4l'" on the opposite side of the House, partienlarly the
Vali ambers fur Coventry (Mr. Ellice and Mr. Williams).
r.. Gentleman opite (Mr. Ellice), who ad be,,
e. .„t2. member of Lord Melbourne's Governmenth, had tin
aZiltle7,..ffest manner disclaimed that argument. That Hon.
711471411., said, let them prove to him that there was a neces-
IN, 'We lax, and he considered it a tax equally to the time
*x,2 as of war. He (Sir J. Graham) did not rely only on
.ityr of the Right Hn. Gentleman to support his charge
, irslstency„ There were other Hon. Gentlemen, who
f1;4421 Members of Lord Grey's Government who were in
th `trn in maintaining that an income tax was only to be
t• in time of war. Two Noble Lords, the Members for
lti4;3' of
ae r London and the borough of Tiverton (Lord J.
to'N, t and Lord Palmerston) were parties to a resolution
an
amendment at the time Lord Althorp was Chan ,
P.:,se t the Exchequer was proposed for the repeal of the
'N r• which broadly laid down that it that tax were
.re-
Ziis'L ere would be in a time of profound peace no objec-
,,. Lever in point of principle to the imposition of a tax on
Ve y..," well as upon property. It was impossible for the
Vlsk-vtd the Memoer for Tiverton, to state that this was a
‘atat °'lly. He ( Sir James Graham) remembered well
i 4 that Noble Lord took in 1816 in endeavouring to
b,:sfeti, the property tax at the end of the
.war. All those
111aleel who objected to ar. income -tax in time of peace, he
,rijoett Graham) would refer to the Noble Lord for an
st • .n... 0 their arguments, as he had enforced the
,tset'iiitls," of that tax repeatedly, not only by speeches,
k.. ,i'h votes. He (Sir James Graham) was
qll.Lat the principle which the Noble Lord had teen
Itlkiityw.,..he was now prepared to assert.—(Ministerial
Noltit`tt,i. With respect to the timber duties, it was mar-
li t `we different opinions that prevailed on the benches
Ss`it, 'hp% that subject. On this matter, too, the opinions
V'ela ° Ron. Members for Coventry were as distinct and
\taltsiltstliader as the Poles. One Hon. Gentleman de-
,l,li t, the there could be no better or wiser proposition than
atkie Right Hon. Baronet respecting the reduction of
,110. , Canadian and Baltic timber. The other Right
teml,4lber said that it was a most prodigal waste of chat
/trkileee°rta a just revenue to the country, and that no relief
tikt hi rit from the proposition to the Canadian merchant—.
9i.e It, he reprobated it altogether. It might be said
L 4 °sl. Member for Coventry, who had declared this
Nt , ,C4f the timber duties a great concession to the corn-
-1/4441)47ine of this country was uninformed upon that sub-
St‘ the lion. and Gallant Member for Marylebone (Sir
&et 'Pier) had this evening pronounced a glowing
Nhki LIP 0 n naval grounds on that same principle
Ni "It " ueen advocated by the Hon. Member for Coventry.
-.11441, tile measure which Hon. Gentlemen opposite were
o•ettilaith respect to the timber duties ? It was the very
atsi,rele-11 Lord Grey's Government had brought forward,
OsOtteL Or. which they never ventured to take the sense of
k-fland from the manner in which it had been re-
e. It e Reuse, was voluntarily abandonded by its pro-
IN Was said they endeavoured to raise the revenue by
of prime necessity. The really best course
It_ 4 • ternit the duty on inferior articles altogether,.and
Wiet44ee equalization of duties in the opposite direction.
irerea,kite a probate duty on legacies and real property,
k.,_ 11- Gentleman, the Lord Mayor of Dublin, con-
Iht , ,'..(!i'e Hon. Member for Ipswich as to the propriety
IL ''"9,,t,ch duties. He (Sir James Graham) saw the
's le_tt4 Gentleman the the late Chancellor of the Exchequer,
1,441
tat -L4_
rille supposed to reply to him, but he was quite sure
Itliglet,','",".• Gentleman was opposed to the principle of
As As to the duty on corn, they were. all. aware that
1%, 13,m2ae had expressed himself decidedly in favour of
\t,
`44.IXS3' on that article. After those things, would
et.-`faTill
_opposite talk of inconsistency? The Hon
r d had last night dwelt on the flourishing

state of the finances of India, and taunted the Blebs 1-lon. Ba-
ronet with haring- exaegerated the rlitliceie.s. 0. Ole ..e
venue as one of ttie reasons which nee ,a• ; , !sa ; .
ment to provide more ample resources to meet tee sieticit ncy ie
the revenue. It had never been asserted by the Right Hon.
Baronet that it was the duty of the British Parliament to supply
the immediate means of making up the deficiency in the Indian
revenue? But the Right Hon. Baronet had stated what was an
important fact, namely, that when Lord Auckland entered
upon the Government of India, there was a surplus in the
Indian Exchequer of 1,500,0001. Since that time, in Indite
as well as the country, there' was a growing and progr s-
sive deficiency. The debt had been increased within
the last four years somewhere about seven millions, and at
the present moment the expenditure in India exceeded the in-
come pretty nearly to about the same amount as the expen-
diture of this country exceeded the income of this country,
namely, about 2,500,000/. Now his Right Hon. Friend
thought that in the present state of the circumstances of that
country, it might be necessary that the credit of Great Bri-
tain should be brought to bear upon the Indian
deficiency.—( Hear.) But he ( S:r James Graham) put
it to the House, if such a necessity should arise, whether is
was not the duty of a provident Government to provide re-
sources which might sustain thecredit, and by so sustairarie it
to support and strengthen both countries ? The Hon. Gentle-
man, the Member for Liskeard, had taunted him (Sir J.
Graham) with respect to the withdrawal of a notice of motion
which he had given in the Session of 1839, relative to the com-
mencement of hostilities on the western frontiers of India. His
reason for doing so was, that although he had some fears
anticipatory of the present disaster, yet as he had understood
that solemn engagements .had been entered into with native
Princes by the Executive Government of the country, that the
honour of the British nation was committed to the fulliimen.
of those engagements. In that the British army was about to
be used, and that under those considerations, the pressing
of his motion would only have the effect of embarrassing
the Government in the execution of those engage-
ments, and therefore it was that he withdrew it. The
Noble Lord the Member for London had, he must say,
guarded himself from mentioning that motion ; but since a re-
ference had been repeated two or three times, he had endea-
voured to state frankly to the House his reasons for withdrawing
it. He had never committed himself to any approval of that
policy; he regarded it with extreme apprehension, and he was
afraid that that apprehension would turn out to be true. The
Hon. Member for Liskeard had brought a charge against his
Noble Friend and himself, that when they were members of
Lord Grey's Government they had consented to a remission of
the house tax ; but. at that time they had a large surplus re-
venue. It remained for the succes-ors of Lord Grey, with a
deficiency of tvo or three years' standing, and not treading in
the steps of ;he Government of Lord Grey, to remit a pro-
ductive tax of 1,500,0001. a-year, when they had a growing de-
ficit of 2,000,0001.—( Hear, hear.) He confessed he would
much rather be tatented with inconsistency than he, he must
call it, guilty of 'he imprudence of those who had sacrificed a
productive revenue to a popular clamour of the moment.
( Cheers.) Then, again, the Hon. and Learned Member for
Liskeard, taking up a metaphor that had been used by the Hon.
Member for Nottingham, had talked of a will made by the Go-
vernment of Lord Melbourne, and of which, with regard to the
country at large, we must be considered the executors. Now,
he must remind them, that to make an honest will, they
certainly ought to see that they disposed of no property
but what was their own.--( Hear, hear.) He must also be per-
mitted to observe, that the death-bed scene of the testator was
much prolonged—his approaching dissolution was long foreseen
—his dying agonies were very protracted, and he nau•t say that,
never was there a greater tenacity of life displayed--( Hear)—
after all, strength and power of action had long been past. Then
what were the legacies that had been disposed of? Were
Catholic Emancipation and the repeal of the Test Act the pro •
perty of the testator? He thought these were the property of
the Government of the Duke of Wellington and the Right Hon
Baronet.—(Cries of "No, no," from the Opposition) What
was it really come to this, that, from the absence of all pro.
perty of their own, they were ready to filch that
of another?—(Oh, oh, and cries of the " Test Act," from
several Members on the Opposition benches.) Was not Catho
lie Emancipation the act of the Duke of Wellington ?—(" 1 he
Test Act." and cries of " Oh, oh.") Well, admitting the
claim to the Test Act, did the Melbourne Government claim
the Reform Bill, the Abolition of Slavery, and Municipal Re-
form ? He contended that these were the property of the Go-
vernment of Lord Grey.—(" Oh, oh," and cheers ) ‘,'hat.
then, had the late Government bequeathed them? He would
tell them what was entirely their own—the China war—
( Cheers)—a war which, as far as he could see, they would find
equally eacult. to close with advantage, or to conduct with
honour.—( Cheers. ) Then there was that shock in India, a
shock under which that mighty empire was still staggering.
In addition to this from them came that disruption of that
French alliance which was the very key-stone of the foreign
policy of Lord Grey's Administration. Then theme was the
Canadian rebellion, and the affair of the Caroline--( Oh, oh,
and cheers from the Ministerial side)—and it was they who
left them the trial of M'Leod, and the question of the Right of
Search. Then, too, came the Boundary questione—these were
the bequests they had made to the present Government abroad.
Now, what had been their policy at home ? They had left
them a growing and an accumulating deficiency of five years'
standing, with 1,500,000/. of productive revenue inde-
pendently sacrificed in one year, while they had endea-
voured to bolster up a mistake of t is description
by adding five per cent. to the Customs and _Excise on articles
of consumption by the great body of the people, hesitating to
tax property, and never touching income. Then they pro-
proposed ten per cent. on the assessed taxes, but the five per
cent. on the Excise, so far from producing an iecrease in the
revenue, actually led to a greater deficiency than before ex
isted, while the ten per cent. on the assessed taxes did not go
far to make up the deficiency. At this hour he should not go into
their Corn Bill and the question of the sugar duties.—(lronical
cheers from the Opposition.) They could not deny that
the sense of the country was against the Bs. fixed
duty on corn. It had been condemned by two Par-
liaments ; it had been decided by that House that
a permanent duty of Bs. could not be levied, and
though there had been a proposition from the Noble Lord
that it should vanish altogether, yet the whole proposal had
been scouted both by consumer and producer. With regard
to the sugar duties, it had been proved to demonstration that,
under the measure of the late Government, the consumer
would not have been benefited during the last year by more
than a fraction—not more than a halfpenny per lb. Nor would
the measure have yielded an increased revenue by securing an
increased consumption. As a financial measure it was a
failure ; the corn measure was not a measure of finance,
except in the opinion of the Noble Lord, the Member
fur Tiverton, but a measure of protection. The point at issue
was thus brought into a very narrow point, and he now begged
to call the attention of the House to the important admissions
that had been made on the other side. First, it was admitted
that the supplies in time of peace must be raised within the
year; next, that the expenditure of the country could not be,
reduced. Looking at the state of affairs in thins, in Europe,
and in India, no one had said it would be prudent to reduce
the estimates either of the army or navy. Then it had been
admitted that the time had .arrived when loans in time of
peace could not be raised with safety. This was admitted
by the Noble Lord opposite, even when there was only
a deficiency of one million. It was again admitted that the
taxes in the present mode were unequal to meet the expendi-
ture, and a most important admission was made even by one of
the advocates of the budget of last year, that in spite of the
credit taken for that measure, it would not have enabled them
to meet the expenditure without resorting to direct taxation.
'The Hon. and Learned Member for Dublin had pointed out
some of the sources from whence a revenue might be derived,
but it must either be by a re-imposnion of taxes that had been
remitted, or by putting on an additional per cent .ge on the as-
sessed taxes. He would point out some of the most productive
taxes that had been remitted; and he would ask Hon. Gentle.
men which of them they would recommend to be re-imposed?
Was it the duty on beer, on salt, on leather, on candles, on
soap, en printed cottons, or coals carried coastwise? On all
these articles taxation had been greatly reduced, and
was it to any of these that the resolutions of the
Noble Lord pointed? If he meant an increased per
centage on the assessed taxes, his objections to it were, first—
that the rich miser might escape the payment of it ; that the
rich man, living lu.euriously, might by going abroad, evade
the tax altogether, ox by reducing his establishment, with re-
gard to those matters to which assessed taxes were applied,
might also by this -means evade it. But he would not weary
the House with going into points that had already been iuliy
explained. The question at issue was simply this, Was the de-
ficiency so extensive, so permanent in its duration, so dal:-
gerous in its effects, and so urgent in its nature, that
a necessity did arise for the imposition of this tax ? Every
Gentleman was perfectly capable of forming an opinion on
this subject. Her Majesty's Government, when they suc-
ceeded to power, wiled for time to consider their measures ;
their opponents were very unwilling to concede them that
time ; but the nation had been more generous, and ample time
had been afforded them. They had paved in review all the
affairs of this great country, and they stood there firmly
united in opinion that the exigencies of the State did require
the sacrifice of that impost which they this night proposed.
They had come to this conclusion from reasons which were per-
fectly satisfactory to their own consciences and judgments. Those
reasons that had been stated by his Right Hon. Friend at the
head of the Government. They might dissent from those
reasons, they mig'at object to the proposal ; but he did defy
them to impugn their motives in bringing it forward.--
(Cheers. ) Talk of a Government st eking popularity by im-
posing an income tax— was there ever such an absurdity
heard of ? Now, in the history of Parliament, had a Govern-
ment given such a political advantage to their opponents as
they had on this occasion. They had proposed a tax which
immediately affected the rich, and the powerful,
and spares the humbler classes,' arid those of small
fortunes, while it diminished the protection enjoyed
by those who were now themselves possessed of political as-
cendancy. He wassbound to acknowledge the generosity of
the support they had received.—(Oh, oh, and hear, hear. )
Be that as it might, they had faithfully discharged their duty, in
endeavouring to alleviate the distress that pressed upon the
productive industry of the country ; and had made an
earnest effort to mseintain the national credit, in the
midst of a great eamergency.—( Hear, hear.) He was
quite satisfiqd that the measures which had been pro-
posed by his Right Hots. Friend were prudent, and her Ma-
jesty's Goveenment left it to the House to determine what the
conrse of events should be.—(Heer, hear.) He was satisfied
that the measures which were proposed were not only defen-
sible, but necessary.—(Tory cheers.) What Ministers pro-
posed, they would not abandon.—( Renewed cheering on the
Tory benches.) 'elley would not have recourse to any appro-
priation clause, or to any other shufle.—( Vehement cheering
and laughter.) hey placed reliance on the wisdom of Par-
liament. and the g; 'sod sense and patriotism of the people of this
country.—(Very gr eat cheering. )
Mr. F. BARING must confess that he was much struck,
during the speeeh of the Right Hon. Gentleman, with the de-
scription which this .Ministers of the Crown had given of the
condition of the c Jun try.—(Cheers, and great interruption )
A revolt was smoul dering in Canada, and they had to struggle
with all the difficulties of an American negotiation.—(Cheers.)
But all through the: deb ates, he was struck with the difference
between the preserve time and the circumstances under which
Mr. Pitt proposed an in; come tax.—( Hear, hear.) There was
then the mutiny of the Nore.—(Cheers.) In Ireland nearly
a revolution.—(Cheers.. ) 'I he countre was in the crisis of the
greatest war perhaps int which this nation had ever been en-
gaged. Hear, hear.) Mr. Pitt proposed the measures at a
time when, in his .own simple words, the hearts of men were
sinking within thein.—( Hear.) The circumstances of the
eountry now were v ery fax different.—( Hear, hear.) In re-
viewing all the state .ments of our difficulties, which he heard
from the other side, he minted altogether the embarrassments
and dangers with which the Government of Mr. Pitt was
surrounded; and Ii e missed still more the calm temper widi
which that Mini seer brought his measure before the
House.—(Cheers a od counter cheers.) He missed the haughty
spirit—('l ho contiesnation of the Right Hon. Gentleman's
sentence was lost ire the tumult of cheers and cries of " Oh,
oh.") If nis recollect ion failed him, he might be assisted by
the Noble Lord, th e Menaber for North Lancashire, as to what
was his own lenge: age in reference to the Right Hon. Gentle-
man who was now his next neighbour. (Tremendous cheer-
ing, laughter, and confusion.) When the Right Hon. Baronet
retired from offices,. and Lord. Grey succeeded, there was some-
thing about the King not being able to ass through London.
—(Cheers, and cries of " Oh, oh.") But he (Mr.
Barieg) was not anxious to turn back to the arguments
which were used at •ehat time.—(Renewed cheering and
interruption.) 'Thee Rigi.it Honourable Baronet and others had
taunted the Opposition weith not being supported by meetings
out of doors _('Tory sheen) But there was an argument used
by the Right Hon. Baron et, and not by him alone, which he
appeal from a Minister of tho
onsidered an unfc irtunatf

Frown—( Hear, hear)—and especially unfortunate on a subject
taxation.--( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet said he
affil blse te teor of n eeen es where those who posssssed in-
comes under 1501. a year, would be brought forward to oppose
his system of taxation, which did not reach them, but was
accompanied by a measure which cheapened the necessaries
of life.—(Cheers.) The observations made by the Hon. and
Learned Member for Bath were not without foundation. That
Hon. and Learned Member had told the House that the Right
ilon. Baronet had dexterously and sagaciously arranged his
plan to cut away the ground from under the feet of the Op-
position. Now lie (Mr. Baring) would perfectly admit that
the measure of the Right Hon: Baronet enlisted on his side
the whole of the physical force party.—(Cheers.) But how
leng would the Right Hon. Baronet be able to keep up that
union ?—(Hea.-.) He would tell the Right Hun. Baronet
that if his experiment succeeded, an agitation would be com-
menced between the working classes and the middle classes
which would compel the Government to give up the Whole of
its scheme, and to place all the burden on property alone.—
( Prolonged cheering.) It was said on the other side that great
inconvenience had arisen from the delay of this debate.—
( Hear, hear.) He admitted that it was so—( Tory cheering)—
but if any one asserted that this debate had for one day, or for
one hour, interfered with the tariff, he should beg the House to
remember that the tariff, as amended, was only yesterday laid
on the t able.—(Cheers. ) He did not find fault with the care
with which the Government prepared their shedules before
they allowed them to go forth to the country.—( Hear, hear..
But he only answered those who supposed that the
prolonged debate was the cause of the delay.
He begged to state, that though he did not agree with all the
gentlemen who had spoken as to the benefit which would be
conferred by the tariff of the -Right Hon. Baronet, he was
not inclined to deny that some benefits would result from it ;
and he valued those parts most which were least popular on
the other side of the Nouse. The Right Hon. Gentleman
would find him as anxious to carry out the principle which he
laid down for its regWation as any Hon. Member in that
House, reserving to himself of course the right of differing
from him upon minor details. The Right Hon. Gentleman,
in alluding to the question of timber, had thought proper to
blame the measure which he (Mr. F. Baring) had the honour
to introduce in the last session. He was not inclined to un-
derrate the value of the reduction of the duty on an :snide
of such great consumption ; but if he had had to
deal with that article he would rather have been
inclined to reduce the protection in the same proportion
as the Right Hon. Gentleman had reduced it, and leave
the amount of tax upon Canadian timber. He thought tth
Right Hon. Baronet might have appropriated the 6e0,0001.
which he proposed to lose in a manner which would have been
the more immediately beneficial to the public interest. He
( dr. Baring) had proposed to raise 600,060/. by the timber
duties ; the Right Hon. Baronet proposed to losethe 600,000/.
The Right Hon. Baronet undoubtedly made a considerable
reduction in favour of the consumer, but there was P2o,ttO
difference between them, which was one-third of the income
tax, and if a man placed the two measures in a scale he would
find that the balance was in favour of his (Mr. F. Baring's)
proposal. He would remind the House of the reason why Lord
Althorp abandoned his proposition. He had originally
brought forward a proposition by which he made a
reduction, and for the purpose of snaking up. the
deficiency he proposed to raise money by means of the timber
duty. He was beaten on that proposition, and he then
stated that he no longer wanted the money, and he would
therefore take a different mode of raising the money. Tue
proposition was not abandoned, because it was untenable in
itself. His statement was that he had abandoned his project,
because he no longer wanted the money; no doubt it he had
not wanted the money the plan which he subsequently pro-
posed, was the plan which he thought would be infinitely
better than the one first proposed. The Right lion. Baronet
had spoken of the new-born seal of his Right Hon. Friend
( 31r. Macaulay), but the great advantages which would accrue
from a reduction of timber had but recently been discovered by
him. Lord Grey was beaten upon that point by those who
were now taking credit to themselves for proposing the reduc-
tion.—( Hear, hear.) The Right Honourable Baronet, in re-
ferring to the means of raising the revenue, said he had expected
an increase from the reduction on timber. The Right lion.
Baronet proposed to deprive himself of 1,200,0001., which
might be derived from timber ; and yet so great was the im-
provement which was to take place that the Right Hon. Baronet
anticipat d something like an equivalent for the income tax.—
( Hear, hear.) He would make one observation with respect
o the affairs of India. The state of our affairs in that coun-
try was used as a justification of the proposed measures. lie
would remind the House that there laid been deficiencies in
India at former periods. There was a deficiency of about 13
millions in 1824 ; yet no extraordinary measures were proposed
at that period. He hoped he would not Le understood as over-
rei ing the calamity which had occurred in India; he trusted
that whatever heat might be manifested in these debate-,
Honourable Gentlemen opposite would allow them (the Op-
position) to have the feelings of humanity.—( dear, hear. )
One of the li. n. Gentlemen opposite, who had spoken during
the course of the debate—lie believed it was the Hon. Member
for Lincolnshire—had said that the Whigs hail added forty-one
millions to the debi in ten years. Now, he (Mr. Baring) was
anxious that a correct statement on that point should go fords
to the House tind to the country. It appeared from the papers
which had been laid upon the table of the House that, c m.•
paring the capital of the debt as it stood in the years 1831 and
1841, and including the twenty millions of West India loan,
only four millions had been added to the capital of the debt, in-
stead of 41 millions, as had been stated by the Hon. Gentleman.
But that was not a:fair way of looking at the question. As
the time for which terminable annuiti. s were granted became
diminished, the capital of the debt become also diminished in
value, and they.were bound in justice to take that into their con-
sideration in dealing with this subject. The capital of the debt
since 1835, including the West Indian loan, had only been in-
creased 8i millions.—( Hear, hear.) But. if Hon. Gentlemen
opposite refused to give them the credit ef ,having eman-
cipated the slaves, it was hardly fair that they should saddle
them with the twenty millions which they had been obliged
to pay in consequence, and if they excluded the twenty millions
of the West Italia Loan, they would find that instead of
the capital of the debt having been increased 41 millions during
the last ten years, it had actually been diminished 13 millions.
That he believed was the real state of the cage. In fact, at the
present moment, they had a sinking fund of two and a half
millions annually silently at work. It was evident that if they
charged a permanent annuity of 1001. a-year into a terminable
annuity of 1501., that additional 501. a-year was in fact a pay-
ment made to a sinking fund to get rid of the present
annuity, and the amount thus paid annually to this, which
uses, in fact, a sinking fund, amounted to two and a half
mllions.— ( Cheers.) That was a point which ought
not to be lost sight of when they were deliberating on the
difficulties of their financial position, and were called upon in
consequence to:make aft increase in the taxation.—(Cheers. )
The Right Hun. Gentleman had commented upon the indis-
tinctness of the resolution proposed by his (Mr. Baring's)
Noble Friend, the-Member for London. Now he (Mr. B. )
thought his Noble Friend by no means shrunk from grappling
wish the question. His Noble Friend had adopted that manly
and fair course which he (Mr. Baring) had called upon
'Honourable Gentlemen opposite to pursue on a formet
occasion, , when they had opposed his (Mr. Baring's)
financial measures. He had then said to them, "I do not
ask you to say what particular measure you mean to propose,
but 1 do call upon you to state generally what financial course
you intend to pursue." Now, on that occasion, what was the
answer of the Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Dor-
chester ? The Right Hon. Baronet, of all men in the world,
replied, " Oh ! you want to peep over our cards, and see our
hand "--(Cheers and laughter)—and now for the Right
Hon. Baronet to come forward, and make the observ*tion he
had done that evening proved that, at all events, he must have
completely forgotten the past.—(Cheers.) The Right Hon.
Gentleman had alluded to his (Mr. Baring's) opinions on the
question of imposing a legacy duty on real property. If he
(Mr. Baring) had changed his opinions on the subject he
should have no hesitation iu saying at once that he had changed
them. There, could be no reflection upon any Mem_
ber for having changed his opinions on a matter of finance.
What was right one day in matters of finance was frequerely
wrong another; therefore, if he had changed his opinions on a
question of that nature he should have no hesitation in avowing
it. But he had not changi d his opinions. When an Hon.
Gentleman had proposed to attach a legacy duty on the descent
of real property, he (Mr. Baring) had opposed the proposition
on principle, and in doing so he had said that, as the deficiency
had been mainly occasioned by the alteration in the Post-office
duties, from which the agricultural interest had received less be-
nefit than any other he thought it would be unjust to throw exelu-
si vely upon that interest the burden of mak inggood that deficiency.
He had also said that it was a mistake to suppose that the agri-
coltural classes were altogether unaffected by the legacy duty,
and he said so still. He had said that it was wrong to suppose
that the great mass of the landed property of the kingdom was
not taxed, and he was of that opinion still. There was a large
tax imposed upon landed property by the stamp duty upon
deeds, but he had never held an opinion that in any great gene-
ral financial arrangement it might not be right to impose a legacy
duty on the succession of landed property ; but if such a duty
were imposed, he thought it ought also to attach to entailed
property. lie concurred with Hon. Gentlemen opposite. when
they stated that there was no tax to which objections might not
be made; but that was not the fair way of considering the ob-
jections which had been made to the Ministerial proposition.
Ile called upon the House to look, not to mere arguments,
but to fact and experience. The country had had a trial of
these different taxes ; they had had au opportunity of com-
paring one with another—of comparing the legacy duties,
the assessed taxes, and taxes on consumption, with
the income tax—and he would ask the House to look at the
result. What, in 1816, was the first tax which the
people of England had called for the reduction of?
What was the tax for the repeal of which, in 1816, the agri-
cultural class, the manufacturing classes, and the poorer classes
of the country had pressed almost unanimously? Why
they had selected this very tax as the tax of all others
from which they chose first to be relieved.—( Loud cheers. )
When they talked of what might be the opinions and notions
from the result of the tax, he pointed to history and experi
once ; and he told them to refer to the former tax, and to all
the statements that accompanied it. Let them look to that
great petition from the City of London, and it contained the
names of men not inconsiderable. There never was such a meeting
in the history of the City of London, as occurred in 1816, at
which that petition, which he had taken the libert of reading,
to the House on a former occasion had been agreed to, and
which contained all the arguments against this tax. The Hon.
Member for Liskeard had been subjected to no little ridicule
for having expressed his opinion as to the result of the tax
with respect to the public funds. He (Mr. Baring) partook
of that feeling. He believed that ultimately the funds of this
country would be as secure as they ever were. He believed that
when ;lie income tax was repealed after a certain time they would
fi id that from all classes a unanimous desire to repair the finances,
and that they would not from any part of the community hear
one word about a breach of faith. There would be an universal
determination of upholding what was called the public faith
of the country. At the same time there were times at
which the public feeling would be excited, when they
would find men in arms against the tax, and he
did not think it wise --fhe did not thick it
secure—he did not think it worthy of a great statesman to
place so large a portion of the public funds, necessary to the
honour and security of the empire, and the good faith of the
country, by imposing that tax which experience had shown to
be the most insecure and most unpopular tax that was ever
placed upon the people.
Mr. FERRAND rose amidst loud cries of " Divide,
divide—He was prepared to divide when he had de•
livered a message to the Right Honourable Baronet in
their (the Opposition's) presence. ( Laughter.) He was
glad to find that Hon. Gentlemen on the Opposition had at
last thrown off the cloak in which they had so long
enveloped themselves. He was glad to find at last that
the name of the working classes was not mentioned
on that side of the House. When the House of Commons first
assembled, night after night, Hon. Members cn that (the Op-
position) side of the House, declared that they were prepared to
bear any burdens on their shoulders provided the working-
classes could be relieved. Night after night, Hon. Member
after Hon. Member, stated this, and called upon the Right'
Hon. Baronet, to bring forward measures for the relief of the
working classes. Did not the Hon. Member for Manchester as-
sert that 100 families in that town were starving for want
of food? Did not .the Honourable Member for Bolten as-
sert that people in the town which he represented were living
on food fit only for the dunghill ? Yes, they demanded
of the Right Hon. Baronet to give the pooor people food.—
(Ironical sheets.) He (Sir R. Peel) said, " will give them
food, but I must have time to pt epare my measures."—( Ironi-
cal careers.) " I never can bring them fairly before the House
of Commons till I have time, and I sail on you, as English-
men and Christians, to go down into the country and raise sub-