The Sun.
London, England, 1842-07-16 00:00:00

•
lint:, before submitting them to Parliament ; ane having done so,
their them mantully. With regard to education, it was
intention to adhere to the minute of 1539. The nation
greeted 3) •
tittle b 0101 under that minute, for the pureo,es of educe-
-12(0007 that 30,000/ secureil the expenditure of at least
eeo • by private individuals, for the purposes of education.
tes4;`•'ely agreed with the Hon Member for Tavtstock, in
thee that due attention should be paid to the investigation of
blest of the mai-appropriation of sums which h..d formerly
et,eti• e,!roted to purpo,es of education. It Was the duty aed
tetee'lre of the Government to pay the most anxious attention
Ntsti,:Neet. It was their intention to go fully into the in-
fusee? and he believed that it would be found that ample
Ise'ej'ee,listed ; and if it should be necessary to apely ea the
oteejture for power to appropriate those funds to their legiti-
ape7stinatiim, the Government would have no hesitation in
o gu, Parliament fo- the necessary powers.
Aiehrtiti; INGLIS admitted the entice of the rebuke of his
klee goo. Friend, but he pleaded in his justification the ex-
ejr of the lien. Member for Montrose.
moor VERNON VERNON SMITH was rejoiced at the manner in
ipeeen the Secretary of State for the Home 'Department had
renoee 'AIL The Hon. Member for Oxford wished Go.
it 18,310 t to take the same ground which they had occupied
4as as an Opposition. He denied that the minute of 1039
inthe result of any compromise. He hoped the present
ape er
!aent would act up to the spirit of the minute, and not
ihemselves to be &seen from their purpose by the Right
log elliertolon. for Oxford, who evidently was desirous of crest-
the ; lliffereece 'between the President of the Council and
si•eeretary of State for the Home Department.
the r 3AMES CHAU AM explained. He readily retracted
eir...\jrd dictate, for the compromise was the• result of the
Isttion offered to the `measures of the Government.
the , • WYSE was glad to see that there was a disposition on
.)11d artt of the Government to establish normal schoole. They
ts,eanbl,ta insist that in all schcols for teachers, there should bo
411041,1 shed a minimum •ot instruction, without which no teacher
let be permitted to be sent nut fr m the school. Before he
(lite; Q9:in he begged to express his satisfaction with the eon-
the representatives of the Government in the other
eel •e Pat liament, and that the differences of party did not
a eifforent course of policy upon this importers!: subject.
lien.ashjoiced to find that there was a prospect of this country
se'Oeen4 !quill to other 'counts ies on the important subject of
non.
The
kite_ vote Axes then agreed to.
teelfue next ovote was for 4.5161 to defray the expenses of the
ehersity of London t:uring the year ending the sth .harsh.
ibetiswer to a question from Mr. WOOD,
ases e°CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said there
ie,Vedottion in the amount of the vote, but that the manner
nse"lnthat reduction should be made was left entirely to the
Ste of the University
110h4..,51e GRAHAM stated that it had been the opinion of
tee Warburton that nothing could be more objectionable than
,loultiplical ion of salaries to the Examiners.
14'. HUME thought they ought to have had a Report on
Ae buinect before they were called on to vote such an estimate.
str°llected to the Members of the Senate hay lag the disposal
theunds of which many of them were to be the recipients. At
oilillipresent time they were quite incompetent to form an
nee oof the propriety of the vote. He thought the Chan-
t), r of the Exchequer would be able considerably to reduce
th aunt of the vote.
1:),1e vote was then agreed to.
et a the sum of 3,147/. being proposed to defray the expense
th
• e no,
00l of Desi gn.
oh, FIUME asked if any Report had been drawl,' up of
• had been done in this school during the past year
tie r•-• GLADSTONE stated that the ete
rport was in erepare-
i'i and would be presented in a few days.
etere HUME thought they had better postpone the. vote till
the Report had been completed.—(oll, oh.)
A'l vote was agreed to.
lore, l°te of .30,0001. for the expenses of the Revising Barris-
ut rovieing the ist uf voters for England and Wales, was
e!°,l agreed to, after a short discussion, during ohich
tieteir 3- GRAHAM, stated that it was his intention to intro-
%towel Registration Bill during the present session, which
othi ',Provide an appellate juriediction, and would, he hoped,
rise at`e' the discrepancy of the present Act, which had given
The Snell contraeictory decision,.
aim: vote of 12,300/. to defray the expenses of Sheriffs, for-
dttlef el'.arged in the civil contingencies, and to make good the
toe;erietes in the office of the Remembrancer of her Majesty's
0, • of Exchequer, was agreed to without discussion.
pe, the vote of 110,0001. to defray the expense of criminal
Pe44reentions, formerly taken from the County-rate, being pro-
Leo
4t.4„„,'' HUME said that it was quite time this vote should be
itere'rle • The country gentlemen had for the last two or three years
14 :good time of it, and the public now ought to have their turn..
*eleJ Ought to go back to the good old times when this vote
lee
_Plaid out of the county rates • it was astonishing how easily
lisel'.ttekleos for existing laws ar'el old customs abandoned their
iot:''Plose when maintainino them touched their pockets. He
`CHANCELLORzigh vote oht to be postponed.
Tile of the EXCHEQUER said this
he d been formerly agreed to by the House on full couside-
%ea.: • It was thought necessary to the administration ofjus-
lee aat the public should pay a large portion of the expense of
liing offeld Ts to justice. The difficulty of finding the
.°5 of prosecution, had been attended with an increase of
if :45, and for that reason the Government had to pay one-half
'Nee eXPen e charged upon the county-rate for that purpose.
%is elaPense was formerly taken out of the poor-rate, and if
Oes,rt. Member threvi it back upon this fund he would not
~.e4lo a veyy popular change.
r* HUME said the question was not whether the change
'3llld betore„ popular, but whether it would be just. What he
berathed of was, that the Government had no check or con-
spoiter iris expenditure.
ate,„e O:HANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the
jets were properly audited every year by the Government.
Peereet•• HUME said that was not the question; it was the
lite:- of directing what was to be the expenditure in the first
, not the auditing it afterwards.
oe vote was then agreed to.
; .
intee.h tnoo/. tor the subsistence of Polish refugees was voted
„„te,out discussion or opposition.
"'n the vote of 4,7401. being proposed, to enable the Trustees
l'S'aeitOe British :Museum to purchase curtain collections of anti-
ere les and natural ebjects,
tPre Bot.VRIIN-G- asked whether the enllections to be phr-
Sns at deoci could riot be included under one vote, instead of lacing
ler,ri separately ?
tist4t rot. STANLEY said the vote was for the annual amount
Leer purchasesand it was impossible to foresee under what
•
.A, the different items would conic.
Rr a short conversation the vote was agreed to.
nitiZflte 01.30,000/. to defray the expenses of the steam corn-
as k• erOn with India by the Redestablishmen Sea was agreed to.
ktee was voted for the civil tof the Bahama
BOtese'
,0:'"1. for the civil establishment of the Bermudas.
fe„rei°/ for Prince Edward's Island.
lR .
nont. for the establishment on the western coast of Africa
7 &g
""- led
for to.
l '"the establishment of Western Aust: alia was
eted to after a short discussion.
of h° the suns of 13,2151. being proposed to defray the charges
Ale e,Eotclesiasticall Establishments in the British Provinces in
,I ea and New Zealand,
r' V. SMITH trusted that the Government would with-
eew .this vote, in older to bring it before the House in some
eubstantive shape, by which the general principle of este-
ts,;'n'on Bishops in the Colonies, to be supported by this coun-
i: snould be fully discussed.
letnOrd STANLEY was surprised at the observations that had
oee'" made by the Right Hon. Gentleman, because the present
eteise was proposed in cesequence of the suggestion of Lord
:elresentSecretary Government came into office they thought they were
oPinbd adopt the act of their predecessors, and being of that
e,I'snHUME they hadtho prougpht theosed theHo preseusenoughtt vote.
not to sanction the
litT
eaY elf publio money in this way ; and if Lord John Russell
o 84ggeStee suck an expenditure, he ought to pay the money
. •
tee Ills own pet.—(Laughter,) He would propose that
%%Ye 410111 d. reduce the amount by 874/., but if they did not do
wotold, then move that Lord John Russell should pay it
-( Laughter. )
• .
r• .VILLIAMS seconded the proposition of the Bon Mere-
cf'er :Montrose.
‘Pe uriginal question and amendment having been put,
' r, WILLIAMS did not see why the starving people of this
-''tryi should way the salaries of Bishops of rich colonies.
PAKINGTON said 1,000/. a year was given to the
ossstau Catholic, Bishop of Quebec, while the Protestant Bishop
Vett without a farthing to support his station.
1/1.11r• RIINDALL said he bad pleasure in voting against the
altoect'aer.
Pee °ll PALMERSTON said he should certainly vote for the
14-nosal o f his Noble Friend, the late Secretary for the Colo-
el thought the Colonies ought to support their own
Pet:e• Ho should not, therefore, vote for this preinsal as a
k—gs e,a'sent arrangement, but merely on the recommendation to"
"04ble Friend, -that the provision ought to be made.
Committee then divided—
For the original motion
For the amendment •
fe2ei Majority against the amendment
n our return to the gallery we found
taw tr. HUME addressing the Committee. He said he should
if "I when the House went into Committee of Ways and
elite• that the amount of 7001., the salary of the Bishop of
e.'ew Zealand, be made up by the late Administration, as it
Pas.franted its direct violation of their expressed opinion.
After a short conversation the vote was agreed to.
• the AveAve
te of 18,696
/. was then proposed for the charges of the
.eth
"eait Department in Canada.
"ir• HUME: said he had understood that this vote was to be
iced.
Zile vote was then agreed to.
see e sum f 1,023/. was then voted for the civil establishment
-neligoland.
e -ism of 52.850/. was then voted to defray the salaries
Le`ne. Stipendiary Justices in the West Indies, the Mauritius,
Ile Cat e of Good Hope.
ee„%el. to shin') of 24,000/. was voted to defray the expenses of
:ding for the religious and moral instruction of the negro
-"P'slar •
~ Attn.
e„'n, sum of 5,0921. was voted for the expenses of the
iy
ration Board.
.eees tee sum of 5,000/. was voted for the relief of the sick
"'"? destitute emigrates on their arrival in Canada.
• nhe sum of 11.500/. was voted for the civil establishment of
Helena.
she sum of n,0001., was voted for the civil establishment of
ge Falkland Islands.
The sum of 75,8501. was voted to defray the law expenses
etrams to Scotch Universities.
e sum of 200,039/. was voted to defray the expenses of
, ••
•,,,Ceorn m issariat,
eees`..ute sum of 5Q,000/. was proposed to enable the Lord Lieu-
. Ilion to promote education in Ireland.
• r'lll a. O'CONNELL did not wish to disturb the har-
. whie'n seemed to pervade the House on the subject of
ticati°°- H v lad to see that Hon. Gentlemen opposite
felts it e
"s
g
1". be no loner necessary to persist in their sectarian
oat The .tonswhich were calculated to create disunion and bad
101 r. CAMPBELL said that although.lion. Gentlemen on
eel' side of the House declined so divide, that was leo proof that
"eY had abaneoned their opinion,
f teaPtinn JONES said that a Protestant could hardly to
Itud in the natioeal schools of lieland.
dr. 11. J. O'CONNELL—Where?
Captain JONES--The n0...4h of Ireland.
ter r* V. SMITH was so ised that the Noble Lord the Se-
GeetearO for Irelend should le-ve the defence of this vote to the
reistlestoe, 0...
et osite, w brie these Gentlemen all abused the vote.
was Euur thoug'at that the taunt of the Hon. Member
ore, not altogether uonnerited, but as Honourable Gentlemen
'r hot le,
ivars ihus—tseaayu,tlhoatdiv.4e' he did not think it necessary to speak.
Hon. Gentlemen behind him had int:ulgedin
: lanqdr.gor,:s m"rr ,presentations. In every national school in Ire-
,trw:t,7 °r ti so hours a day was laid apart for religious in-
-I)eeill' r oit way his Noble Friend the author of this system?
'sot. The very' same plan had been chalked out in
1812413(11y
).; the Archbishop of Armagh, Dr. Elrington, and
Nle oe ern
~11 Scriptures were not withheld or excluded from
001, but selections from Scripture were used, and those
th..:Ations consisted chiefly of the Gospel of Luke and the Acts of
ei;Altostles ; his belief was that instead of the religious instrue-
eho"r of the pupils being neglected by this means, they were
co2enhiy instructed in the first principles of religion. A
ai7tOrt had been appointed,to,,etioile into education, and
they t xfis'essed their a the Lail tea system, t, hied
...,:.!.tern Lad tailed tli,r,
•
:sire
4u1,1 t vet ; ail ciic) iu kat
malio no impression on their minds. He mot alto

131
25
, -105

agree with the Hon. Member in his statement that there were
no Protestants in these schools ; he believed the Protestants had

a very fair proportion to the lioman Catholics. Under these
circumstances, he did believe that the National School formed
+he best sy,tern of education that could be devised fur Ire.
land.—e Hear, hear )
Sir ‘v. SOvi ERVILLE was delighted to have had the op-
portunity of hearing the speech which Oa:: ju=t fall•n from tin)
lips of the Nolde Lord opposite.—( Hear, hear.) What was
meant by raising the Catholics of Ireland from their present
state of degradatit:n, was, really, the reduction of the Catholics
to their toimer dc•gra.ted state, during which it was a crime to
give the Catholics any education at all.
Alr..Sergeant JACKSON defended the character of the
Kildare-street Society, and referred to the Reports of several
Commissions, to show that the Society had faith.ully discharged
its trust.

Lord ELIOT said his Learned Friend had misunderstood
him, if he supposed that he meant to depreciate the services of
the clergy of the Protestant Church.
Mr. LABOUCHERE said he had an anxious hope that
the :Noble Lord the Secretary for Ireland, had been a more

faithful expositor of the views of her 'Majesty's Government
than the Solicitor-General. He thought the speech of the
Noble Lord was equally creditable to his head and to his heart.
—( Hear, hear,) it was clear that he ht the plan es-
tabished by the late Government worked beneficially.
He tru,ted every Aleniber en his sido of the Hone would sup-
port the Government in every liberal system of education.
Lord STANLEY said her Maji-sty'o Government had care-
fully and deliberately considered the question, and the re-
sult of that consideration was their determination to support

the present system of education in Ireland, believing it tole
best adapted to give spiritual edueation to the great mass
of the population of that country.— ( Hear, hear.). lie
trusted the Committee would not be divkied on this vote.
could say that he had not changed his opinion, and he
should therefore give the vote his cordial assent.
Alr. WYSE thought the arguments of the Solicitor-General
for Ireland were more worthy his talents as a lawyer, than his
character as a statesman. The objection to the present system
of education seemed to be that the Scriptures were not read in
the scho.,ls, but the fact was that the Scriptures were read, and
a cheap edition had been published under the patronage of the
heads of school establishments. _

Lord SANDON had opposed this measure from its very
commencement, because he did not think that the attempt to
bring together people of such different views as these schools
brought together could be attended with happy results. This
system had, however, gone on for a considerable time, and had
given pretty general satisfaction ; at tie same time he thought
it would be advisable to allow two grants ; one for the national
schools and the other for the Protestants ; this he believed
had been the case in England, where one grant was given fur
the national schools and the other for the British and Foreign
School Society. which latter he considered to answer to the
national schools in Ireland.
Mr. J. O'CONNELL complained of an expression of the
Learned Solicitor-General for Ireland in speaking of Mr.
Blake, "a Roman Catholic, but a highly respectable gentleman."
Sergeant JACKS( tN explained.
Air. WA ;iD, alluding to the Right Hon. Baronet, the Mem-
ber for the University of Oxford, said that he had skulked away.
Lord STANLEY rose to order. He thought the Hon.
Gentlem,n must himself be sensible that he had used an im-
proper expression.
Alr. WARD said, if the words were offensive, he would
substitute the words " walked out of the House."
Lord CLEMENTS said, the speech of the Learned So-
licitor-General would txcite great dissaisf action in Ireland.
He looked upon the grant as one of thegreatest possible benefits
to Ireland.
Sergeant MURPHY supported the vote.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the House
divided, when there appeared,
fl

For the vote .:
Aga.nst it
The announcement of the numbers was received with loud
elv-ering.
On our admission into the gallery we found
Air. LE FROY, on has legs, stating that he had never given
a vote with more satisfaction in his life. He however must
say that he thought the 'course that had been pursued by the
other side a nn.st unworthy one.
Air. WA RD said his attempt had ended just as he ex-
pected.--( Hear.)
PLUMPTRE said he had voted in favour of the grant,
because he was determined not to be forced by the attempt of
the Hon. Member for Sheffield; he, however, begged to give
him notice that he should resist the grant on the bringing 112 of
the Report.—( Great cheering.)
The Chairman thin reported progress, and obtained leave to
sit again on Moitday, as we understood.
PARISH CONSTABLES BILL.

On the order of the day being read for the reception of the
Report on the Parish Constables Bill,
Mr. PAKINGTON hoped that the Right Hon. Baronet
at the head of the Home Department would not press the con-
sideration of the Report that night.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM felt it to be his duty to press the
consideration of the Report, but if the Hon. Gentleman wished
a discussion upon the Bill, he would mute's day for the third
reading; to sirt the convenience of the Hon. Member.
Mr. CIIILDERS expressed his concurrence in the sugges-
tion of the Hon. Member for Droitwich.
Alter a short conversation the Report was ordered to be re.
ceived on Tuesday next.
_ _

Wide Streets (Dublin) Bill went through Committee.
Testimony Preparatory 13111 was read a third time and passed.
ELECTION PETITIONS TRIAL BILL.
This Bill was read a second time.
The other Orders of the Day were disposed of, and the House
adjourned at Three o'Clock.