The Sun.
London, England, 1820-05-04 00:00:00

NEW POST OFFICE.

On the motion Of Mr. R. GoaDoN, who depreo
ailed the expence incurred in the building of the
New Post Office, and particularly the imposition
of its expence on the Orphan Funds, a return of
the plans received, and the money expended, was
ordered to be laid before the House.
CIVIL LIST.

Sir H. PARNELL rose to move for certain rcterg
connected with the Civil List, under a conviolon
that, it the subject were thoroughly examine4l
considerable sum might be saved to the country.
The present was the only opportunity of enforcPig
a strict inquiry, because the House was awire
that, as soon as the bargain had been completed,
the answer would be ready, that the that ter was
concluded, and that no further investigation could
be bed. He was anxious that the report of 1810
should be laid upon the table, that all members
might be put in possession of the nature of the settle.,

:nFIn of tia in year follow tit; 1 if it
rnitlZl he reprinted, it would bee still greateradvati-
lage,a4 it C.roted-thr basis oftlie present. plan. In
addition, hewishedfor papers to stow what increase
tad been male the'Civil List, and what charges
fortnetly paid out- of it had been transferred to
other Funds Tire most important, fioWever,
would relate to the total expense of the support
of the Civil (3overnment of these countries. The
soots paid nut of the Civil. List for this purpose
formed but a small part of the,whole,. as altoge-
ther it amounted to shout 2,000;0001. A-year, in-
clotting the xo,itzt'of Parliament,.arld what was
called the feq-10n4., By far the greater, part of
expenditpre,was tlevpted, to,,the support of
official establishments. The House oue.ht also
to, be in possession of some return, showing the
expencr of, ,collecting the hereditary, revenues
of the Crown. .The. Finance Committee -had
ieported that a great saying, might be 'mule in
this department rod, to ascertain the coirec ness
statement. he was desirous of returns flout
the Alik-oation office, the Fee-farm-rents'-office,
the Crown-lande•office, and the Woo(14-and-
for,e,tc.-oll)ce. 'By an Act ot'the Irish I'm hauteur,
in the 33(1 (co. I 11., on the demise of the Crown,
the lleleditary
.11evtliues in Ireland were to he
compu ed, and (lie Civil List settled accordingly.
The last documents be should require would refer
1,, the teverote anti emol«ment belonging to the
•Ducliy at lift Ater, and the other Duchies and
Counties Palatine. lie mortal fi long list of
papers, to obtain the information he thought ne-
ce,,sary.
LTle CAT LOR of the ExcnreuEa observed,
that the gretter part .of the information required
by the lion. Parr. was already berme the 1-louse
in different shapes, hitt it could not he collected
and copied without such a loss of time as would
be extremely inconvenient' on a measure of so
nntefi,inaportance and urgency. For the purpose
of economical reduction, he,coull.nnt see why it
war nectwaryto,entFr now into a tall examiria-
-11M) of the official establishments paid oni of the
Livnl ,List. Natty tither offices came tinder the
Lead of Civil contingencies, which Wilt! !IntitUally
lti•olighibefare l'ailiatirent. 'As to the Report of
1815; l,e thought there 'conk!: he tin difficulty in
obtaining a sufficient nurithir of copies of it to
inform all whO would be willing to ko through its
volupinoits details, and he did not 'think it neces-
sary to rept it. He moved the previous ques-
tion.- . .

i\jr.TtenNtsy said, that it would be impossible
to come to a vote on the resolutions of the Chan-
cell,ir of the Exchequer without 'considerable in-
(wiry, and some farther communications from Mi-
Lis'ers as to 18C'S and de ail 3. Although those
resol,ilions had p6ssed last night, he desired to be
understood as not having waved his claim to
papers of the kind ngev rettilreti, because he was
persw,dedthat they Were necessary.
Mr CAI CRAFT hoped that the Hon. Baronet
would not -withdraw Lis tllO6Oll, and give way,
unless the Chancellor of the Exchequer would
undertake that the report of 1815 should be re-
prin'ed. lie believed.it contained all the infor-
niaton required by this motion,
PA RN P 1,1., added. that be would not trouble
the [loose to divide, it that repot were repri,ted.
The quet!ion was then put, and the previous
suestion was carried without 8 division.
The Cl 4 ANCP,LLOR of the EXCHEQUER then
moved, " That the Report of 1815, on which
the estabitsOment of the Civil List in 1816 was
billidre, be printed."
Mr. l IFKtihV supposed that the'gnestion would

be. set at rest before Gentlemen had that Ityport
in their hands.—(l-!ear, hear L)--They were to
d, cite first. and have the Itt port atterwardS.
Besides, he wished for addirional information. He
wanted io kno,v what bad been done since 1816.
The oo,tion was then agreed to.

CLERK OF THE PEACE IN IRELAND.
11r. CALCHAFT, in the absence of a Right lion.
B.i.tonet (Sir J. Newport), moved for leave to
bring in a bill to regulate the Office of Clerk of
the Peace in lreland.—Lease was given.
HEREDITARY REVENUE OF THE CROWN.

Mr. HUME, in moving for Account' on these
Bubjec;s, said, that the objections which had been.
urged against the Resolution of the Hon. Ba-
ronet, could not apply to any of his motions.'
onject was to. obtain Papers illustrative of;
the other Revenues of the Crown, exclusive of
the Civil List, and he wished to' be nriade'Ett.:'
udint,d with the amount and expendirtue:
these Revenues from the pet Ma up to which the
Report (so otter men'ioned) had brought Mein;
the bill of January, 1815, to the sth of Jitnuary,
182 Q. But, in older to facilitate the making up
of this Return in time for the appoint eddisenssicin,
))e wmild only require the sums total of the pre,
ceding years, which might be expressed in nine
lines, and the details of the last year alone. By
thus completing the Report to the present perFori,
the House would be able to see all the 'alterations
that had been made in the Civil Litt, and he was
satisfied, that if looked into, these would fur-
nish grounds for other ariangements than those
which load existed, or were to be proposed. Since
the accession of George the Third, to, the bib' of
January, 1813, the votes-to the Civil List amount-
ed to fitty-three millions ; and nearly nine mil-
lions more wet e charged on the Consolidated
Fund, which constituted essentially a portion of
the former as regulated at the accession. The
manner of charging salaries and allowances on
different funds was product ice of great complexity.
The Speaker, for instance, had 15901. from one
fund, and so much more from another. Would
it not be much better to have these things sim-
plified ? But instead of that, the Fee Fund paid
particular services from four or five diffetent
sources, and all of those must have establishments to
keelOivir perolexed accounts. On these grounds
he -could not contemplate any opposition from
the 'Bight Hon. Chancellor of the Exchequer,
but= expected that he would permit the !louse to
4a:ie the whole cxpeoce of the late reign before
them in one view. For this purpose he oderen
live Resolutions for their approval.
On putting•the first of these,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER observed,
that it appeared to him to he liable to the same
ob;ection as those of the Hun. Baronet. icy tai
the grertter part of 'll;e4e accounts were al.caoy

before the Mouse. Neither were the tc:rtaintler
neeeby,ry, for the Act of 1816 provided that it the

expenditure of the Civil List ;should ever exceed
the sum, limited, 1,100,0001, an account thereof
must be laid before Parliament within 30 days.—
It the Hon. Gentleman;' therefore, meant to say
that Ministers had violated that Act, let him
bring forward the charge ; be was prepared to
answer him. If theri had been no excesi,,and be
declared there.hati nor•-if the issues bad been re-
gular as determined by the Legislature, then what
Opuntia had the Hon Gentleman fdr'his- motion !
He concluded by moving the previous question.
ftlr. Hume considered the answer as unfair.—
The settlement of the Civil List had been twice
altered, and Ministers had not always'atterkd to
Acts of Parliament ; so far from it, that above
three millions bed been voted to make, up for
tibeir violations. He'hoped the House wiluld not
allow his motion to be rejected its this manner,
hut assist him in dividing to procure the
!infor-
mation so necessary for their instruction previous
to voting the new Civil List.
Mr. HusmssoN said, the Hon. Gentleman had,
Otis night bros'ched an entirely new Parliame6tary
doctrine on the subject of the Hereditary Reve-
nues of the Crown. Ever since he bad the-honour
.if a seat in that Hriuse, anti'long' before, N very
Opposite feeling had been cherished, and an oppo-
site course pursued in respect to this Subject.
Their was indeed high authority on the other side
at the House against the Hon. Gentl man.
hux declarect, that lie did not consider himself at
liberty to call for such accounts, unless there was
an increase cif the ex"pcOditure allowed by Pat ha-
Ment, and the Crown 'came to theM fOr a further
grant. But the Atm. Gentleman would have the
Most minute inquiry noW, now when no angmeu-
tjation was sought ; alld'oll the contrary, when it
aupeared that if an increase tit no -snore than
16,0001. had taken place; the 'whole ot these cc-
counts must have been submitted to investigation.
There having been no excess, and nolhing being
asked on the part of the Crown, he put it to the
House if it were cowisteat with the respect here-
totote shown by Parliament to the Thinne, to de-
viate from .the Uniform system that had been pot-
sued, and call for the particulars of the applica-
tion of the 'loyal income? As the arrangements
of 1816 bad been observed, and the exptntliture
kept within the estimate, and as the Hon. Gen-
tleman possessed all the information requisite for
inaking the new settlement, he could neither think
it' necessary nor fit to gratify his cutinsity, by
publishing for bin) how much for inst..nce was
spent in -.vine in the Lord Steward's department,
or any other items of household exirente• The
whole question was, whether the House would
agree to or reject the settlement of 1816 and he
conceived tie Hon. Gentleman's inquiries to be
uselessly directed.

Mr'. TIERNEY thought the speech of the Right
lion. Gentleman a very extraordinary one, for he
had signed as it there was a Civil List in exist-
ence, whereas they were called on to make a new
one. It was on this account that the Hon. Gen.
tleman asked for information. The Crown, in
the Speech from the Throne, had declared that it
placed the hereditary revenue at their disposal,
and were they to say that nothing needed altera-
tion since the year 1816 ? It was surely right,
before they took ti final step which could riot be
changed, that they should examine the grounds
on which they were going,* He had no doubt but
the Right Honourable Gentleman stated the
with, when he a'rured them there had been
no excess since 1816; but the totmal course was
not to take the word of a Minister on such an
occasion. He did not want to probe what existed
in the Royal exvenditure, but to be informed as
to the expellees of the live Reign, which teas
now become a matter of history. He had
observed before, and might now repeat, that he
could not see how the Lord Steward's depart.
ment could be expended. it occurred to him that
in 1816 they might have voted more than was
necessary. If there was a surplus, they ought to
know what was done vk ith it, and On this score
the Accounts seemed desirable. He was tar from
meaning any imputation upon the Crown, but it
'was not iMpossible that there might be a Crown
which would like the sum of money allowed for
it better tban'the Splendour of the establishments
anti' festivitlei that :SUM was destined to' support.
'.Would it then be improper to ask for information
linte'the money' was employed ? He had no refe.
mice' to the present' time, and was merely sup.
posing'a.case, burl e still thought that there was
liow ground fur investigating the arrangements
of-
-1816. To forni the new settlement on the lowest
'scale
was the duty. Which the Route owed to the
:cou'nt'ry, and
.ha would wish to pursue that sp.
tem.- always giving enough to sustain the dignity
and hnnour of the Crown.
'Mr. 11U3KISSOH and the CHANCELLOR of the'
:EXCHEQUER severally explained.
Lord JOHN Russet'. said, he could not vote
the Civil List ott the alleged by the Right
HonOurable the Chancellor of. the Exchequer.
The Report of a. ComMittee' which sat- five years
ago was rot the way the House should .now take
to direct it. Burdened at. the 'people were, they
would be ill used if this were the sole foundation
on which they legislated; instead of inquiry to
ascertain how tar these burdens could be
viated.

Mr. flume explained, and the Gallery was clear-
ed for a division, which did not, however, itnure-
diately take place.
On heing re-admitted, we found
Lord MILTON ott his legs, expressing a doubt if
the present were a fretiMe for permanently settling
the Civil List at all. Owing to the great change
in the currency of the country, no man could tell
what was the value of a pound sterling, and. they
ought to pause, or at least weigh every point ma-
turely, before they determined so important a (pies-
Halt a century had elajoed since the Civil
List had been fundamentally settled, and it was
surely proper to inquire. more fully into it now
Onto M;nisterS were'disposed to concede. If they
lacked at Mr. But ke's celebrated speech, and at the
Bill with which he was afterwards obliged to be sa-
tisfiA, they would see that there were many ex-
cellent plans for improvement which had -never
been carried into effect. The present seemed
to be the time when something 'might. be
done, end he would instance especially the Duchies
Palatine ;• that of Chester; so absurdly situated
with its Chief Justice, who, as %cell as the Welsh
Judges, bad a seat in that 'louse, an anomaly in

the Consttutian. All these. maPers, the tc.;lc
and classification of the expenditnre, ought to be
investigated, instead of Ministers trying to get a
credit front the public for not increnging the Re-
venue beyond what was fixed in 1816. He con-
sidered it extraordinary to refuse the documents
asked, and insinuated that Mini,ters were not ini-
mical to an increased expenditure, since they sl-
leded that the country expected an addition to be
made to the' Civil List. This expectation was in
conformity to their wishes.
Mr. C. LONG (towards whose observations,
while strangers were out, it seemed this allusion
was directed) denied that lie bad expressed himself
in a way to justify the construction of the Noble
Lord.
After a few words from Mr. Hume and Mt.
HUSKISSON. the }louse
Par the previous question ll3
Against it 6O
Majority a-53

Mr. HUMP now proceeded to propose the te•
minder of his Resolutions. He would, to prove
tbe,absurdity of some of the items. in the Civil
Li4t—tor isivane, 1,3721. for the NlAver of
the Horse ; 15001. for the education of Persian
Youths, &c.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHFCWER met these
by s,Ating, that the accounts %vere all niteady be-
fore the HOUse, and by moving tie previous pies-
tipou theta, which was carried without a di-
vision.

Thelast two Reso!talons referred in the slims
at his Majesty's disposal in B.entland, and amount-
Vng to 110,0001. a year, which tt.e Honourable
Mover accused Ministers tit employing, not to
styp'ort the dignity of the Crown, but to contort
the Members of I bat House.

. -
.111 ton these the CHANCELLOR also moved the
previous questiott.

Ali'. Ilunte moved for at 4 account of the appro-
priation of his M,jesty's r,served Revenue in
Seolitiod, under the heads of Pensions, &c. from
the 2d of Februitry,. 1816, to the same date in
1820.

On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of like 'Ex-
CHIs4UHR, the previous question was again agreed
to.

Mr. Hums then gave notice, that; not with-
stmdiog he ill success 'which had attended his
awls this day, he shquifr move to-morrow for
certain Tapers respecting the Revenue of 'Gi-
b.altar.