The Sun.
London, England, 1829-02-18 00:00:00

CATHOLIC ASSOCIATION.

Mr. Secretary PEEL then moved the Order of the Day
for the third leading of the Bill for suppressing illegal
Associations in Ireland.

General GASCOYNE did not rise to object to the
third reading of the Bill, but to avail Lime if of that op-
portunity of putting a question to the Right Hen, Secre-
tary. The proper period had now arrived, and from a
variety of circumstances he was led to believe that, if be
let the present slip, he should not have another op-
pertunity. lie understood that the Right Hon. Secretary
had said, when commenting on his Majesty's Bpeucla, that
he was aware of the existence of dangers of which the
public knew nothing. That assertion had made a strong
impression both in and out of doors, and he confessed that,
according to the statement subsequently made by the Right
Hon, Gentleman, sufficient ground was shown for the
measure then before the House, but by no means euffi-
cieut to justify all Out might be inferred front
his speech.—(Hear, hear.)—The statement which the
Right Honourable Gen"leman had made, spoke of
tumults and outrage:, all of which had been mentioned
in
the Limerick Journals, and other Journals, and were there-
fore known to all. As these were by no means sufficient
to warrant the statement alluded to, he would now ask
whether these were all the dangers which vere really in
existence. He thought that the time was now cone, since
they were to lose the Right Hon. Gentleman for 3 short
period,—no one could expert or wish that it woul4 .be
foe a long period,—when the Right Honourable Gel:t-
eems!' should calm the public mind by telling them
something more. The public mind was distracted by
fears so various, sad rumours so ridiculous, that some-
thing was necessary to quiet it. The rumours were as
numerous as they were ridiculous. One was believed
by many out of doors and in doors also, which was
that the Catholics in the army would have telused to
have acted if called upon.—(A laugh.)—Let it not he
supposed that he believed this absurd rumour. He
said that it was a libel on the character and discipline of
the army,—(Hear,)—and yet he had heard it from twenty
people of that House, who really thought it a rumour to
be credited. It was reported, too, that foreign [lowers
had interfered and remonstrated with this country-, and
that America had secretly supplied Ireland with arms.—
(Cries of " hear," and laughter.)—He really only men-
tioned these absurdities in order that they might he contra-
dicted. It was, he confessed, scarcely credible that a
national man could entertain them ; and yet many men out
of that House,—aye, and in that House too,—(Hear, and
laughter,)—did seriously entertain an opinion that the
Right Hon. Gentleman would never have given his assent
to the measure in contemplation, and have become the
executioner of his own principles, if he did not know of
something which the public were not permitted to know.
These surmises were idle and extravagant, but still they
should be put an end to. He trusted by the answee he
should he able to elicit, that they would be set at rest fur
ever. For his own part, he saw no reason to believe that the
Right Hon, Gentleman knew more than he had already
stated. He (Gen. Gascoyne) thought he bad explained all
that he did know, and he would now ask, whether what be
had already stated were the only grounds on whielt he
was introducing the measure for affording relief to the Ca-
tholics. If so, those grounds were by no means setisfec-
tory to him.
Mr. Secretary PEEL—The grounds upon which the
present question is put to me, if 1 understand them, are
these, My Friend says that within these Law days
there lave been a thousand ridiculous reports in c4cnia-
tion, and therefore, he asks me' to contradict two of those
reports, which he himself describes as incredible. Now,
sir, I never ears consent to such a principle as this. I
cannot consent to contradict one of these reports, for by so
doing, it may be surmised that those which I have left tin-
contradicted are not without foundation. (Hear.) I ii;d
state to my Hon. Friends with whom I had formerly coin-
cided in opinion that they had not that informa-
tion which I was in possession of, and I gave
them specimens of the communications which had
Ewen pouring in for the last six months into the office of the
Mimic Department. I did also state that if the settienu43
of the question were unavoidable, there never was a period
et which England could undertake- it with such perfect
honour anti satiety as at the present moment, when her
relations with foreign power, were in euch a condition
as they had nOtlien before for 400 years. I refe:red
to that, IA an answer tn his report about foreign interferenee,
J say again, that there were never any circumstances under
its settlement could lea so favourably carried into
eeaeeution. I also stated my reasons for believing the set-
tlement at the present period to be necessary. That
the condition of society in Ireland required it, for the
benefit of Protestant interest. My Hon. Friend says,
he was disappointed in my statement, for that Ireland was
not in so bed a state as Minietere had assumed it to be.
Butt nothing, surely, could be more deplorable than
the condition of Ireland, as respected the intercourse be-
tween man and man, or indeed with reference to theldanger
which threatened the public peace. lodised, the state of
society was such that it became incumbent on Ministers to
consider whether greater advantage would not arise by
settling the question, than by doing as they had done fur
the last sixteen years, with the two Houses of Parliament
opposed to each other on the subject, and the Cabinet itself
divided. (Hear, hear.) As to the existence of any (han-
ger, which could place the House under apprehension there
is none; but the existing animosity of the parties, and the

continue,l inn:A:nee of that anialosity upon the adenis-
tration of justice, if it is and must be continued,
through the desirable medium of trial l yJury (hear, hear,)
are sufficient reasons to induce his Majesty's Government to
endeavour to have the question settled. As to fears of any
other description than those whick must result to the coun-
try from such a state of society, I repeat there are none.
Mr. G. 3IOORE must say, that he had not heard a
single argument advanced by the Right lion. Secretary on
the state of Ireland, that ought to induce the House to grant
emancipation. It was acknowledged by Ministers that it
was the general state of public excitement that existed
in that country, that ellied for something to he dune.
Now he (Mr. Moore) bad berr intimately acquainted with
Ireland for many years, and well knew the general opinion
that prevailed there, which NYlki decidedly against emancipa-
tion ; and so far from it henetitting the state of society,
he had no doubt it would involve that country in
much greater danger than it had hitherto experienced,
and before the measure could be passed into a law, the
talde of that House should grout with petitions, against
it. The Protestants of Ireland, who were the best judges
of the evils under which that county laboured, were de-
cidedly of opinion that the proposed measure would be
highly injurious (hear, hear, hear), and that other means
might hays been used for the general p leification. He
could only once a;zain call upon Ministers to pause before
they brought the Bill for emancipation before the House.
The Marquis of CHANDOS rose to ask the Right
Hon. Secretary for the Home Department whether the
intended Bill, after prohibiting the collection of any fur-
ther rent, contained any clause directing the disposal of
the large fund already collected, and now in the hands of
the Association ?—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. Secretary PEEL—I have already stated that the
Bill prevents any further collection of rent, as well as pro-
hibiting any future meetings ; but I have no hesitation in
informing the .Noble Marquis that the Bill does not in-
tend to confiscate any fund in band.—(Hear, and cheers. )
I can also assure my Gallant Friend, the Member for Li-
verpool, that he need not believe any rumours respecting
the interference of any Foreign Powers in the settlement
of this question, I must solemnly deny any such interference.
But if it be necessary that something must be done, if the
question must come under the House's consideration, I will
again repeat, that such is the present state of our relations
with Foreign Powers, that the present time is the most
proper that could be selected.—(Hear.)

Mr. D. W. HARVEY said, that he rose merely to
make an oh-creation upon what had fallen front the Hon.
Member for Duhlin. He took it for granted that the
Hon. Member, and that other Hon. Members who thought
with hint, were not prepared to say that Ireland wa-s to
continue in its present state. He believed that it was
agreed on all hands that something must be done for tkat
country, and that the Hon. Member and those who thought
with him differed only as to the remedy which should be
applied where very body allowed that a remedy was re
quired. The Hon. Member had stated, from his own
knowledge of the sentiments of the Protestants in Ireland,
that the table would groan with petitions against the mea-
sure in contemplation ; and the Hon. Member had more-
over stated, that the Protestants of Ireland were the best
judges of what would ameliorate or endanger the condition
of society in that. country. Now he did trust that that
Hon. Member, and that others who hell the same opi-
nions, would he prepared to satisfy the minds of those who
entertained doubts, or who had not thought or voted at all
upon the subject, that the measure in conte oplation would
be productive of the evils which the Hun. Member antici-
pated from it. He did trust that the Hon. Member and
his friend would be prepared with moue better mode,
which would be no very difficult task, if the mode pro-
posed was so extremely bad as the Hon. Member had de-
scribed it to be.—( Hear, hear.) He trusttd that the
Hon. Member would excuse hin► ifhe advised hint to turn
from the character of an insignificant querist, and to assume
that of an intelligent reihrmer on a subject in which, in
his own opinion, and in the opinion of the whole House,
reform was absolutely necessary.

Sir 11. HERON said, that on a former occasion the
Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Peel) had expressed his firm
conviction that after an adjustment of the claims of the
Catholics bad been made, the whole of the Protestsnts of
the country would be unanimous in upholding the laws,
and in resisting all attempts to disturb the public peace.
He, going farther than the Right Hon. Gentleman, was at
a loss to conceive how the lion. Member for Dublin could
say that the adjustment of those claims would increase, in-
stead of lessen, the dangers to which Ireland ss as now ex-
po4d, Nut only would the adjustment of those claims
have the elect anticipated by the Right Hon. Gentleman,
but it would also Insure them the co-operation of the Ca-
tholics in Ireland, and the assistance of Catholic Le4isla-
tors in that [louse, to put down any associations, the ob-
ject or effect of which should be to disturb the peace of
Ireland, or to infringe the lints of that country. He
must, however, take this opportunity of saying, that he
hoped that in no part of a measure which was to restore
some political rights, would there be any thing which
would destroy other political rights,—(Hear.)—Whatever
regulations, if any, might lie thought necessary with re-
spect to the zh:ietive franchise of Ireland, lie did hope that
they would follow, and not be mixed up with, that great
measure.—(Cheers.)—He could not help feeling convinced
that the state of the elective franchise of that country had,
in some measure, contributed to place the question of the
Catholic Claims where it was, and he did, therefore, sin-
cerely hope that it would not be mixed with, or form any
part of, the measure in contemplation.—(Hear,
He regretted that this measure should be persevered in
after the Catholic Association had given the greatest pos-
aka proof of its desire to meet the wishes of Government
by the Association. He could not help feeling
come gratitude to the Association, because it was un-
doubtedly owing to that Association that the proposed
measure, so necessary for the peace of Ireland, was to be
brought before Parliament, •;n this was known by his
Majesty's Ministers. He. confesaed last felt too much gra-
titude to the Right Hon. Gentleman for hi;; noble conduct
with respect to this question to offev any opposition to the
prisms luill, which he thought a necessary accompanitnertt
to a ❑teauie war concession.
The Bill was tires: geed a third time, and, after a verbal
amendment, passed.
On the motion of Mr. POll i= M'QUEEN, leave
waii granted to bring in a Bill to mead iL law of pare-
chid! setthements. _ _ .