The Sun.
London, England, 1829-02-24 00:00:00

TO CHEMISTS AND DRUGGISTS.

®NE of the PARTNERS in an old
established WHOLESALE and RETAIL BUSI-
NESS in the above line, in one of the princip►l cities of
England, being about to retire, a very ADVAN-
TAGEOUS OPPORTUNITY offers for one or two
persons who can command a Capital of Six or Seven
Thousand Pounds.
Particulars may be known by application to Messrs.
Harmer and Fawkes, Bueklersbury, London.

SALES BY AUCTION.

DOVER-STREET, PICCADILLY.

Elegant Furniture, Noble Pier and Chimney Glasses, rich
Cut Chandeliers, and Grecian Lamps; handsome Pari-
sian Escrutoire, Bronze Figure Girandoles, Oriental
Alabaster Vases, China and Glass, &c.
TO BE SOLD BY AUCTION,
By JOHN ROBINS,
(Of Warwick House, Regent-street)

At the Mansion, No. 32, Dover-street, Piccadilly,,on
WEDNESDAY, March 19, and following Day, at Eleven,
THE ELEGANT HOUSEHOLD
FURNITURE,

Consisting of Four Post, Tent, and other Bedsteads
and Fornitures, seasoned Beds and Bedding, Dressing
Tables, Cheval and other Glasses, suites of handsome
Drawing-room, Library, and Dining-room Window
Curtains, in Chintz Cotton and Morine, Sofas, Couches,
Chairs, Ottomans, &c. en suite, noble brilliant Plate, Pier
and Chimney Glasses, Marble Slab Pier Tables, rich Cut
Glass Chandeliers and Grecian Lamps, handsome Bronze
Figure Girantioles, Tripod Candelabras, Parisian Escrutoire
and Book Stands, beautiful Oriental Alabaster Vases,
Eight-day Dials, China and Glass, capital well made Cabinet
Articles in Rosewood and Mahogany, Loo, Card, Pem-
broke, Sofa, Library and 'Work Tables, excellent Dining
and Breakfast Tables, Pedestal Sideboard and Sarcophagus
Cellaret, Wing and other Bookcases, Wardrobes, Chests of
Drawers, Cabinets, Hall Chairs and Forms, Library and
Dining-room Chairs, Turkey and Brussels Carpets and
Hearth Rugs, Fenders and Fire Irons, numerous kitchen
requisites, and various other Effects.
May be viewed on Monday and Tuesday preceding the
Sale, by Catalogues at One Shilling each, to be had on the
premises; at Garraways; and of Mr. Robins, No. 170,
Regent-street.

MANCHESTER-STREET, PORTMAN-SQUARE.
Eligible Family Residence, with excellent Offices, Coach-
House, Stable, &c., Elegant Fashionable Furniture, an
excellent Six Octave Square Piano-Forte, by Broad-
wood ; handsome Parisian Time Piece, Linen, China,
Glass, and various Effects.
TO BE SOLD BY AUCTION,
By JOHN ROBINS,
(Of Warwick House, Regent-street,)

On the Premises, on THURSDAY :March 12, at One,
THE LEASE of a Compact and most De-
sirable FAMILY HOUSE, situate No. 16, on the
East side of Manchester-street, at the South End, near
Manchester-square, in excellent order, and fit for immediate
reception, held for a Term, about Fifteen Years of which
are unexpired, at a low Rent.

The House contains four neat Rooms on the Attic
Story; on the Second Story, an excellent airy Bed Chamber
in front, and Dressing Room, Lobby, &c., and two Bed
Chambers at the back ; First Floor, two handsome Draw-
ing Rooms, communicating by Folding Doors, fitted up in
an elegant style, and Boudoir; Ground Story, a capital
Dining Parlour, with Recess, Closet, &c., a neat Breakfast
Room and Study adjoining ; Lobby and Water Closet ;
Entrance Hall, with Screen and Folding Doors; Staircase
to the Two Pair, and Mahogany hand .rail , Basement,
Housekeepers' Room, Servants' Hall, Butler's Pantry,
Water laid on, Closet, Pantries, &c. ; an excellent Kitchen
under the Yard, Scullery, and open Areas; capital Wine
Cellar, Vaults for Beer and Coals, and Steps to the Street.
A Coach House and Three Stall Stable, with Loft and
Servants' Room over.

On the same day, at Eleven o'Clock, will be Sold,

The excellent and Fashionable HOUSEHOLD FUR-
NITURE, comprising handsome Bedsteads and Bedding of
the best sort, and Chamber Furniture ; ilorine, Chintz,
and other Window Curtains ; well made Cabinet Articles
of all descriptions ; Brussels and other Carpets ; fine French
and other Engravings, handsomely Framed and Glazed; a
fine toned Six Octave Square Fiano-Forte, by Broad-
wood ; handsome Parisian Time Piece, Linen, China and
Glass, good Kitchen Requisites, and various other Effects.
The Residence to he viewed by Tickets only, between
the hours of Eleven and Four o'Clock. The Furniture on
Tuesday aad Wednesday preceding the Sale.
Particulars and Catalogues may be had on the Premises ;
at Garraway's Coffee-house, 'Change-alley, Cornhill ; and
of Mr. Robins, No. 170, Regent-street, of whom Tickets
to view may be had.

COUNTY OF DURHAM,
IN THE PARISH OF NORHAM, NEAR BER-
WICK-ON-TWEED.

Valuable Freehold Estates, very Eligible for Investment,
upwards of One Thousand Seven Hundred and Fifty
Acres. To be Peremptorily
SOLD BY AUCTION,
By JOHN ROBINS,
(Of Warwick House, Regent-street),

At the Turk's Head Inn, Newcastle-on-Tyne, County of

Northumberland,

On SATURDAY, April 25, at Twelve, in Lots.
Lot I.THE VALUABLE FREEHOLD
ESTATE FELKINGTON; comprising
a capital Farm House, and very complete range of Agricul-
tural Buildings, recently erected and substantially built,
with Stabling, Bullock Sheds, Yards fur Cattle, Barns,
Stack Yards, and upwards of
NINE HUNDRED AND THIRTY ACRES

Of excellent Arable, and Pasture Land ; divided by thriving
Quick Hedges, Labourers' Cottages, &c. In the occupa-
tion of, and on Le,,.e. to, Mrs. Dodds, till Whitsuntide,
1831, at a low Rent.

Lot 2. The Valuable COLLIERY of FELKINGTON,
and an enclosure of PASTURE LAND, containing near
THIRTEEN ACRES, with an immense quantity of Coal
of a superior Quality, supposed to be inexhaustible. On
Lease to Messrs. Carr, Alurton, and Grey, with Sundry
Cottages for Labourers.

Lot 3. The Valuable FREEHOLD ESTATE, Grieve
Stead Farm, with New Built Farm House, Stables, Cow
House, Barns, Stack Yard, Sheds, and upwards of FOUR
HUNDRED and EIGHTY-FIVE ACRES of ARABLE
LAND. In the occupation of Mr. Steel ; on Lease, with
Cottages, &c.

Lot 4. The Valuable FREEHOLD ESTATE of
EASTER NEWBIGGIN, contiguous to the foregoing
Lots, and beautifully situated ; commanding a fine view of
the Tweed, and delightful prospects in various directions.
A newly erected Stone-built Farm House, capital Agricul-
tural Buildings, Cottages, and nearly THREE HUNDRED
and NINETEEN ACRES of Excellent ARABLE and
PASTURE LAND. In the Occupation of Mr. Smith, a
most respectable Tenant, till Whitsuntide, 1832.

Lot .5. A VERY VALUABLE ENCLOSPRE of
RICH FEEDING LAND, the DOVE COTE PARK,
situate near the Church of the Village of Norham, con-
taining nearly SIX ACRES. In the occupation of Mr.
Jeffrey.
The Estates are situate in the parish of Norham, in the
county of Durham, about seven miles from Berwick-on-
Tweed ; the Turnpike Roads to Coldstream, Cornhill, and
Woolley intersecting the Lands, and contiguous to good
Market Town.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS.-(LAST NIGHT )

The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Woolsack
at a few minutes before Five o'clock.

Lord KING presented two petitions from Youghall, in
the county of Cork, against the Sub-letting and Vestry
Acts.

Lord ROLLE, in presenting a petition from the Free-
holders, Magistrates, and Clergy of Devon, observed, that
he did so in consequence of one of the most respectable
meetings ever held in that county. The petition was signed
by upwards of twenty-six thousand persons, praying that
their Lordships would preserve the Constitution of the coun-
try inviolate, as established at the glorious Revolution of
1688. The prayer of the petition was entirely consonant
with those feelings which he had ever held, and which
he trusted he ever should hold. He (Lord Rolle) could
not but lament the alteration which had taken place in the
opinion of his Majesty's Ministers. He trusted that peti-
tions from every part would crowd the table of their Lord-
ships House. His opinion with respect to the Catholics
had not changed, and never would.
Lord KING observed that the Noble Lord had stated,
that the resolution for this petition was passed at one of
the most numerous meetings he ever witnessed, hut he
had forgotten to add, it was one of the most disorderly.
Lord ROLLE would venture to say there never was a
meeting in any county, where every thing attending
it had been so consistently performed, or where there was
more attention to every thing likely to quell tumult and
support the Constitution.
Lord KING observed, that perhaps the Noble Lord
might think it right that clergymen, being present at the
meeting, should hold up their hands in order to give the
word which way parties were to vote.
Lord ROLLE explained.
Theßishop of EXETER could bear witness to the re-
gularity of this meeting. He should hold himself ex-
tremely culpable, if he allowed the Noble Lord (King) to
state that Clergymen of his diocese had behaved
themselves improperly at this meeting. The clergyman
alluded to, so far from putting himself forward on that
occasion, did not make his appearance till towards the eud
of the meeting, for the purpose of delivering his sentiments
on the question : and it was, in his opinion, a question en
which that clergyman had a right to speak. It was a
question in which the interests of the church were parti-
cularly involved ; and he could not see why a clergyman
should be debarred from giving his opinion on a proposition
which affected the Constitution of the country.—(Hear,
hear. )—Towards the end of the meeting that clergyman
certainly did come forward with the intention of speaking;
but, so far from acting as a fugleman, and influencing the
meeting, the crowd assembled would not hear him, and
therefore he remained silent. He (the Bishop of Exeter)
would not have saiel so much with respect to this clergy..
man, if reflections had not, from time to time, been un-
justly thrown out upon other clergymen of the Established
Church. Now he would assert, that the clergy of the
diocese of Exeter had not put themselves forward farther
than they were justified in doing.
Lord REDESDALE said, that even if what had been
stated by the Noble Lord were proved, still, in mentioning
it, the clergy ought to be spoken of with respect. He
would show, when the proper day came, that there were
certain persons who went about endeavouring to disturb
public meetings, in order to prevent the sense of the people
from being fairly brought forward.—(Hear, hear.)—They
had done so in this very town ; and the perso❑ who had
thus acted was, lie understood, a Catholic clergyman. He
did not mean to assert this as a fact, but he certainly had
heard it related. He must say, that the attempt to cry
down the Established Church of this country, by bringing
unfair accusations against the clergy, was to him`extremely
alarming ; and when the proper time came he would
stand forth as the defender of that much-maligned class of
persons.

Lord ROLLE felt it ❑ecessary to say one or two words
with respect to the Clergyman who had been particularly
alluded to, and who had not an opportunity of denying
what had been alleged against him. That individual pos-
sessed property in Ireland, and felt anxious that the Pro-
testant Church of England and Ireland should be sup-
ported ; because he conscientiously thought, that if a
measure of concession were carried, the Protestants of
Ireland would be sacrificed. Such a measure would have
a great effect on the lower orders ; and the consequence
would be, that Ireland would become altogether a Catholic
country. If that were so, he would ask, whether, if the
Catholics gained the ascendancy, it would not vitally affect
the Protestant Church establishment and Constitution ?
He might be an enthusiast ; but this he would say, that as
long as he lived, lie would, by the best constitutional means,
both in that House and at the foot of the Throne, endea-
vour to prevent the success of any such measure. If the
prayer of the petition were not acceded to, he would call
upon the Royal personage at the head of the state (he
knew not whether he was disorderly in saying this), but
he would call on that Royal personage to act consistently
with his Coronation oath, by which he was bound to pro-
tect the Protestant religion in this country—by which he
was bound to protect that Protestant Constitution under
which he held his crown. He would advise that Royal
personage to act in a manner befitting his dignity, for the
security of the Throne, and for the welfare of the
country.
Lord KING had his information as to what occurred at
the meeting from an eye-witness, as well as the Noble Lord.
But the Noble Lord stated, as a reason for the appearance
of the Clergyman that he had property in Ireland, which
circumstance bad rendered him extremely sensitive on this
question. Now he conceived that this sensitiveness was
the cause of his misconduct; and, with respect to his be-
ing in the back ground, no place could afford him a better
opportunity for making his signals.
Lord REDESDALE—What misconduct does the
Noble Lord allude to ? What right has the Noble Lord
to designate as misconduct the course which this Clergy-
man took ?

The Property presents a favourable opportunity for a
highly advantageous investment to Capitalists, being let at
low Rents, and capable of considerable improvement ; the
principal part is divided into convenient Enclosures with
thriving Quick Fences, and plenty of Limestone.
The Colliery is reckoned to he of a very superior quality,
and an almost inexhaustible Mine, and from its contiguity
to the Town of Berwick may be rendered a very highly ad-
vantageous investment.
Particulars may be bad of the Tenants, who will show
the Estates; at the King's Arms, Berwick-on-Tweed;
Swan, Alnwick ; Bell, Belford ; Bush, Carlisle ; Mr.
Brummell, Solicitor, Morpeth ; Mr. Thomas Cheer,
Solicitor, at the place of Sale, Turk's Head, Newcastle;
Black Swan, York ; 'Waterloo Hotel, Durham ; George,
Stamford ; Hen and Chickens, Birmingham ; Messrs.
Stephenson and Bateman, Solicitors, Southampton-build-
ings, Chancery-lane ; at Garraway's Coffee-house, 'Change-
alley, Cornhill ; and of Mr. Robins, No. 170, Regent-
street, where Plans of the Estates may be .seeth.

The Bishop of EXETER had had an opportunity of
inquiring into this affair, and found that the Clergyman
to whom allusion bad been made, was at the back of the
meeting,--that he took no part in the business, but kept
himself away. He would not proceed with a course eel re-
crimination on the other party, which would lead to end-

LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, FEBRUARY 24, 1829.

less conversation ; but, if inclined to do so he had sufficient
materials for that purpose.—The petition vas read and
laid on the table.

Lord ROLLE presented a petition from the Mayor and
Corporation of •Exeter, against further concession to the
Catholics. He believed that those Noble Lords who were
favourable to the Catholic question would find, if a fair
opportunity were given for appealing to the real sense of
the country, that it was decidedly against granting any
further concessions. He should think it right, if that
House agreed to further concessions, even though he steod
single, to demand an audience of his Majesty, and to call
on him, with his latest breath, to do his duty to his
country and his God.—The petition was read, and laid
on the table.

Lord DE DUNSTANVILLE had to present a petition
from Cornwall in favour of the Catholic claims. There
were, he believed, in that county, a great number of per-
sons favourable to those measures of concession which kis
Majesty's Ministers had in view. The clergy were hostile
to such measures ; but very many of the land-owners
viewed them with applobation, beciuse they were of
opinion that they would do more to tranquillize Ireland
than could he effected in any other way. The petition,
which was from the freeholders of the hundred of Shalton,
was then brought up.

Lord ROLLE said, the Noble Lord, when he spoke of
the Catholic Claims as being favourably considered in
Cornwall, inust.refer to his own immediate neighbourhood.
He balieved that it was the general determination of the
people of Cornwall to oppose the Catholic Question. He
might be deceived ; hut he believed, if a general meeting
were called, that the majority would be found decidedly
against granting any further concession to the Roman Ca-
tholics. Such a meeting was talked of, and he should
like to know why it had not been held ?
Lord DE DUNSTANVILLE said, it was no more in-
cumbent on him than it was on the Noble Lord to answer
the question which had been put. There was undoubtedly
some talk of a public meeting, and he had written to a
noble friend of his, for whom he felt the highest respect,
that if it were his intention and that of his friends, who
were so confident of a majority on their side of the ques-
tion, to convene a meeting, that he (Lord De Dunstan-
vine) would take care to attend it, Since that time he had
heard nothing about it.—(hear, hear.)
Lord ROLLE--I should not have said any thing, if the
Noble Lord had not stated that the sentiments of the people
of the county of Cornwall were in favour of the Catholic
Claims, which I do not believe to be the fiet.

Lord DE DUNSTANVILLE.—I deny that I said so.
I said that the clergy were unanimously against the ques-
tion, and that the laity were divided. That was what
said. 1 also said, that there were a great number of
landed proprietors in favour of those claims, and 1 still
assert that fact. (Hear, hear.) I did not say that the uma•-
jority of the people of Cornwall supported the Catholic
question.
Petition laid on the table.

The Bishop of GLOUCESTER presented a petition
from the dean and clergy of Gloucester, against the Roman
Catholic claims.—Laid on the table.

The Bishop of GLOUCESTER presented a petition
from the clergy of Stonehurst, and of another place, against
the Roman Catholic claims —Laid on the table.

The Bishop of CHESTER presented a petition from a
pariah in Chester, praying that political power should not
be granted to the Roman Catholics. The petitioners fur-
ther prayed, that if it were found expedient to relax any
of the laws affecting their Roman Catholic fellow-subjects,
the legislature would take case to provide full and sufficient
securities for the maintenance of the established church.
On that point he supposed his Majesty's Ministers would
anticipate the views of the petitioners.—Laid on the table.
Lord LYTTLETON presented a petition from a body:of
Protestant Dissenters at Northampton, pra)ing that every
law imposing disabilities or penalties on account of reli-
gious opinions may be repealed.—Laid on the table.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY, in rising to pre-
sent a petition from the Roman Catholic inhabitants of a
parish in Ireland, said he was desirous to say a very few
words on the subject of the Catholic Question. Ile was
anxious to do so, because, from peculiar circumstances,
he had been precluded from signing the declaration on this
subject which had been generally disseminated through the
sister country. But though he refused his signature to
that declaration, still he had not, even for a moment,
swerved or shrunk from the anxious desire he had always
felt for the settlement of the Roman Catholic Question.—
The declaration to which he alluded had been sent to him
by the Secretary of the Catholic Association ; and he con-
sidered it as an insult to transmit the declaration through
such a channel, as if he were an abettor and upholder of
that Association. Connected with Ireland as he was, he
would say there never was anything so prejudicial to the
cause of the Catholics as the existence of that Association.
The persons who composed it had, from its commencement
up to the present moment, done nothing that was not cal-
culated to alienate the friends who had been the constant
supporters of the Catholic Claims. What had been the
course taken by those people in Ireland ? Why, they had
not merely debated on the subject of the Catholic Claims,
but they had in their speeches declared that they would
look forward to radical reform, to the repeal of the Union,
and to the division of church property.—(Hear.)—lt was
declarations of this nature that had inflamed the minds of
men of all descriptions. The bane of Ireland had been
the clubs formed there; and, had the Act of 1825 been
carried decidedly into effect—had the Catholic Associa-
tion been then put down—clubs would not have existed.
But this was not done; a re-action was the consequence,
and the whole country was thrown into a state of effer-
vescence and agitation, which could not have occurred if
the Bill of 1825 had been promptly acted on. He had
passed some time in Ireland during the four last months,
and he would say that that country was never in a greater
state of prosperity. It was under these circumstances that
he hailed—he might say with a feeling of gratitude—the
measure which now, he trusted, was about to be carried
iuto execution—(Hear, hear)—for healing the wounds of
that distracted country.—(Hear, hear.)—He felt deeply
interested in the success of that measure ; and he hoped
that the Noble Duke at the head of the Government would
use all his powers to carry the Bill into effect. It was a
most extraordinary thing, that this great object was about
to be carried by those who had so long opposed it. He
quarrelled not with those who had formerly been hostile
to the Catholic Question—he merely looked forward with
joy and satisfaction to the great result. When they talked
of the sacrifices which this man or that man might make,
he confessed that he thought there was only one individual
who could be said to have made sacrifices—and that was
the individual who could not tender his resignation. If
that individual took the course which he conscientiously
believed necessary for securing .the happiness of one
part of the empire, he would be adored in that country
hereafter, and he would be described in her annals as
hiving achieved her salvation. In the quarter to
which he alluded he believed there was a strong feeling
in favour of the Irish people; and if the measure to be pro-
posed by Ministers received the Royal assent, and became
a law, it would excite feelings of gratitude from one end of
Ireland to the other. His Majesty would be handed down
to posterity as the first Sovereign who had ever, in his
speech from the Throne, recommended to Parliament the
cause of the Roman Catholics of Ireland. Every Noble
Lord had an opportunity of stating the feelings, with re-
spect to this subject, which prevailed in those parts of the
country with which he was connected. In the north of
England, where it was pretty populous, he had beard no
expression of sentiment against it; and in the province of
Ulster, in Ireland, there was a general feeling in favour of
Catholic Emancipation, accompanied by proper securities.
In November last, it was his fortune to visit that county,
with which he was intimately connected, and of which he
was the representative for fourteen years ; and he found in
that county one sentiment of anxious desire to have this
question set at rest. In that county, which was, he might
nay, the focus of the Protestant party, and the great depot
of Orange feeling—(he meant the county and the city of
Londonderry)—in that county all the converts that had
been made were converts from strong Protestant feeling to a
favourable consideration of the Catholic Claims ; while on
the other hand, not one person who had been in the habit
of supporting the Catholic Question had turned against
it. This clearly showed that the question was a gaining
one. It was a question which, he was persuaded, must
be carried, and therefore he called on the Legislature to
look it in the face. If the Roman Catholics were after-
wards so monstrously ungrateful as to attempt to disturb
the Protestant Constitution in Church and State, Protest-
ant feeling, Protestant energy, and Protestant firmness,
would be opposed to any such ambitious project. If he
wanted any other arguments to support his .ideas on this

subject, he need only refer to the conduct of a Noble
Marquis (the Marquis of Anglesea), who not long ago
said, that on account of the outrages of the Catholic
Association, it would be fit and proper to resist those
claims. Why, greater outrages had occurred since ;
yet the Noble Marquis, having gone to Ireland--having
seen the state of the country—having examined it with
his own eyes—had now come forward in the view of the
Legislature, as one of the greatest advocates of Catholic
Emancipation. This was a strong point, and ought to
weigh, and would weigh, with both Houses of Parliament.
He would implore those Noble Lords who had opposed
this question with so much ardour, to consider the crisis
in which the country was placed. In many of their feel-
ings he participated, and therefOre it was the more painful
to him to differ from them on this question. But he
would call on them to look at what the progress of this
question had been in the last few years, and then to say
whether it could remain as it was.

His Royal Highness the Duke of CLARENCE rose, on
the question being put, that the petition be laid on the
table, and spoke somewhat as follows :—My Lords, I rise
now to declare my sentiments, though I am aware it is
somewhat irregular to do so. It was my intention dis-
tinctly to state my opinion on the subject when the Order
of the Day fur receiving the Report on the Bill for sup-
pressing the Catholic Assocation should come on. Of that
measure no man is more decidedly in favour than I am ;
but of that, my Lords, more hereafter. I rise, my Lords,
now in consequence of an expression which fell from the
Noble Lord, whom, I believe, I may be permitted to call
my friend, and one of whose remarks has called me up thus
early. The Noble Lord said that his Majesty's Ministers
were now united on this question. I am glad, my Lords,
to see that they are now united, and that this measure has
now received the sanction of a united Cabinet of his Ma-
jesty's Ministers, when for so many years the Government
has been divided in its opinions on the measure. That ex-
pression, my Lords, made me now rise. It would have
been more regular, I am aware, to have declared my sen-
timents when the measure for considering the condition of
Ireland came bet'ore your Lordships, than on the pre-
senting petitions pro and con relative to the measure to
be proposed by the Government, when those who sign
the petitions can know no more about it than people not yet
born. I rise, my Lords, because it has been remarked there
is, among his Majesty's Ministers, new a union of senti-
ment on this subject. I wish, my Lords, that the Ministers
had been so united in 1825, but the persons who were then
his Majesty's Ministers were not united, and we have gone
on to the present time. If they had been united in 1804, it
would have ken a great advantage to both England and
Ireland. From that period, my Lords, my opinion has
been invariably favourable to what is falsely called Catholic
Concession,—(hear, hear)--which is not concession to the
Catholics, but rather• an Act for altering their present state
of degradation—and nothing else. When the great mea-
sure shall come before your Lordships, I pledge myself to
prove, that it is not concession to the Catholics, but a re-
moval of degradation and the surest means of cordially
uniting together eight millions of people.—(Cheers.) Now
that I am on my legs, I shall say, that in reserving myself
to state my opinions more at length hereafter on this ques-
tion, I shall give that support to his Majesty's Ministers
which they deserve from every man against so unjustifiable,
if I may not say so infamous an attack.—(Hear, herr.)
If his Majesty's Ministers are now fortunately united to
make some arrangement, I shall help them with heart and
hand. The Noble Duke shall have all the support pos-
sible from me, as I cannot suppose that the measure is not
the result of deep thought, anxiously intent on the welfare
of the country.—(Hear, hear.) It will be forty-six years,
my Lords, next month, since I first had a scat in this
House, and I thank God, during the whole of this time I
have never given a vote of which I ought to be ashamed;
but I never have given—l never shall give a vote with so
much pleasure as the vote I shall give in favour of the
measure to be brought in by the Noble Duke. It is not
England only, my Lords, but all Europe which will be
benefited by his Majesty's Cabinet being united ; and
every ►nan of common sense must wish that this interest-
ing question—interesting to England, and whatever is con•
nected with the interest of Europe—and every rational
man must wish for the prosperity of Great Britain as con-
ducive to the prosperity of Europe and the world. I also
think, my Lords, that nothing could have been more for-
tunate than that the Noble Duke should have been selected
by his 'Majesty to be placed at the head of affairs. I rejoice,
my Lords, that he has taken this step ; and so long as his
Majesty's Ministero continue their present course, they shall
have my hearty and cordial support.—(Hear.) In the only
conversation, my Lords, that I ever held with the Noble
and Learned Lord on the Woolsack on the occasion of my
tendering my resignation to his Majesty of the office I held,
and which his Majesty was graciously pleased to accept, I
then told that Noble and Learned Lord that I never would
enter into a factious opposition to his Majesty's Ministers,
and that on any question on which the Government was
opposed I should conceive it My duty to support them with
my vote. What I say, toy Lords, will be confirmed by the
Noble and Learned Lord, who, I have no doubt, remembers
lily words. Though I may have wished to be in active
life, I never will be in a factious opposition; and I consider
that the whole country should stand up in support of the
Noble Duke, who, I must state, has come forward with
boldness, fairness, and candour.—(hear, hear. )_Under
these circumstances I do hold that it is my duty before God
and man, to declare my sentiments. Being professionally
educated, I know something of the Catholics, and I should
be the most ungrateful of men if I were ever to forget the
reception I met with from them. I have seen them in
many different situations as I have pursued my professional
duties, and I have always admired the character, the bra-
very, and the thorough good humour of the Irish people.
If that venerable man, my Lords, who gained for this coun-
try a glorious victory—if Lord Viscount Duncan—if the
Earl of St. Vincent, whose excellent discipline and great
energy were second to none ; if Earl St. Vincent, whose
exertions subdued is spirit of revolt in his fleet, and kept
the seamen in submission, when other squadrons had broken
out into mutiny, and who likewise gained the great battle
of St. Vincent's ; and if that one man, more dear to me
than any other Officer—if my Lord Viscount Nelson,
who fell in the arms of victory—if they were now alive
—if they, with other gallant Officers, could lift up their
heads and see the dawn of the tranquillity and happiness now
opening on Ireland—if they could see the justice now to
be done to the great body of men who fought with them
on the lower decks of their ships, and whose bravery ena-
bled them to gain their victories—how would they now
rejoice to see the petitions of their brave associates granted.
Great consideration is due to what such men would say,
and they would think it was a debt due to the Irish nation.
However I might on one occasion have had the misfor.
tune to differ from the Noble Individual at the head of his
Majesty's Government, nothing can ever induce nie to
alter the exalted opinion I entertain of his great personal
worth and high military talent. When I recollect the vic-
tories achieved by the Illustrious Duke, from as it were
the first dawn of his great military talent—when I recol-
lect the brilliant circumstances attendant upon his first
charge at the time he commanded a column in India, and
contributed so materially to the destruction of the power
of the celebrated 'l'ippo Saib—when I recollect all his
splendid achievements, from his first victory of Vimerra
down to the conclusion of his labours, and the c‘insumsna-
tion of his glory upon the bloody and well-fought field of
Waterloo—l cannot but add my humble acknowlegment,
in common with all my countrymen, of the debt of grati-
tude which we owe him, and the expression of my unqua-
lified satisfaction that he is now about to repay the debt
due on his part to so many of his brave companions in
arms, by raising them from the state of degradation in
which they have been so long unjustly held by the
operation of the Penal Laws.--(Hear, hear, hear.)—
I am convinced, indeed, that every thing which can be
done for the good of the country, and the prosperity of the
people, will be done by that Noble Duke, and I shall there-
fore make no further observations at present on this sub-
ject. I trust, however, I have said enough this evening to
convince this House and the country that I am serious in
the support I intended on all occasions -to give his Ma-
jesty's Government, in their endeavours to settle this
question.—(Hear.)-1 shall have a great deal more to say,
however, when the measure intended by the Noble Duke
is regularly before your Lordships. The subject is one to
which I have repeatedly turned my mind, and which I
have at various times considered for the last ten years in
all its bearings, and with reference to England as well as
Ireland. It may, I have no doubt, be said
.that, if your
opinions were always in favour of concession to the Roman
Catholics, why is it that you have not before avowed
them ? My reason, my Lords, is this—the settlement of
the Catholic Question has nut until now been made a

measure of Government—(hear) ; and although I bad
claricig my opinions. In
tepoi
consideration
produce
lynserote,
oppositioncistdns.
present
uniformly
:euhaeeslirreete bound,
otinlot
thtspotnasupportoAnJo uol
hhei
sioohdnlcot
yeuilei opposition for a long period, and con-
fleeted in early life with many of the distinguished leaders
y of this country, I feiC
ituation in tvhieh I was
p
t moment, I could not,
w
nion
eeld spoused
fromthe causee
leased the Almighty to
he
concurrence
eolel ndri c:
cseoloßjtunefyplirsgacetieriisti circumstances
vernmeut; and having
co
l
subject, come forward
and express my sentiments in favour of the Catholics, as
long as the Members of his Majesty's Government
were not united upon the expediency of granting the
Claims of the Catholics. I saw, however, that the
policy of granting their Chinas was every year gaining
fresh advocates—l saw that the disunion existing upon
the subject of Concession among the Members of his
Majesty's Government was every year becomina of
-
greater consequence—and I felt that I should do harm,
instead of good, by any interference in a point which
[nest ultimately be conceded, but which I felt never could
be conceded with security or wills propriety, unless through
thin mediutn of the Ministers of the Crown. So convinced
am I indeed of the propriety of this course, that if the
Noble Duke had come down to your Lordships' House,
and declared that he had formed a Government unanimous
in their opinions that the claims of the Catholics should be
resisted, I feel I must have adhered to the slate line of
policy. My opinions upon the propriety of concessions to
these claims might and would have remained unaltered,
lint I should have always felt it to be my duty to resist
their being factiously brought forward ; for until the
opinions of the Members of the Government were united
upon the subject, I could not bring myself to believe that
the proper time was arrived for an attempt to '
accom-
plish the object of our wishes. Now, however, I thank
God, the (lay is altered, and I trust we shall all join
heart and soul in the furtherance of those measures con-
templated by the Noble Duke, but which I not being
in the secret cannot pretend to describe. I hope, -how-
ever, they will prove, when laid before the House, to
be infinitely less objectionable than some Noble Lords seem
to imagine. I trust, too, that in the interval between the
passing of the Bill which we are to consider to-night and
the announcement of those measures by which the Noble
Duke purposes to effect this most desirable object, that the
Right Reverend Prelates will apply themselves seriously,
deliberately, and without the mixture of any unseemly
passion or prejudice, to the consideration of the condition
in which we are now placed, and what would be the result
of its continuance.—(Hear.)—l trust in this deliberation
they will call to their mind that they are the appointed
Ministers of peace. I trust they will also call to their re-
collection what might be the situation of Great Britain it
those events which are every day taking place upon the
Continent of Europe, and which begin to assume an ap-
pearance of still greater interest to this country, should,
by any possibility, give rise to such difliculties as would
involve us in another war. I would ask the Right Rev.
Prelates whether they can, conscientiously, bring them-
selves to oppose that measure which may place na in a
situation to avoid all hostilities in the present situation offu-
rope ; and I would ask them still further, whether, knowing
that by opposing it they may be the means of introducing
hostilities abroad, and enmity at home—l ask them how
they can then dare to call themselves the Ministers of Pecree.
(Hear, hear. )—I feel I ought to ask pardon of your Lord-.
ships for detaining you se long at the present moment, and
the more so, as I shall very often be obliged to trotuble the
House in the discussions which must take place uporr
measures which the Noble Duke intends to propose.
could not, however, avoid congratulating your Lordships
upon the prospect before you, and expressing my pleasure
and satisfaction that the door of the Constitution is at last
to be opened to the people of what ought to be the
dearest, as I believe it to be the richest province of our
united empire. The Illustrious Duke was heard with pro.
found attention, and loudly cheered by their Lordships a'
the conclusion of a speech which seemed to make a strong
impression upon the House. When silence was in sonic
measure restored,

The Duke of CUMBERLAND rose, and observed, that
after having once before expressed himself clearly, and, he
hoped, decidedly, upon the Claims of the Catholics, it had
not been his intention to trouble their Lordships with any
observations until the measure of the Noble Duke was be-
fore the House. Painful as it was to him at any time, to
differ from those with whom he had been in the habit of
concurring in political life, it was still more painful to hint
to be compelled to differ from those with whom he was
connected by the ties of blood. He felt it, however, to he
his imperious duty to express his opinion decidedly upoo
this subject, and he hoped, therefore, that his Noble Rela-
tion (the Duke of Clarence) would not take it unkind in
him, when he endeavoured to give utterance to the asto-
nishment he felt when he heard factious motives imputed
by that Noble Person to those who were hostile to the
Catholics, and his still greater astonishment at the Unfair
attack made upon him personally, and upon others, by the
application of the term "infamous " to their opposition.
His conduct had been, he thought, always fair aid open,
and honourable and candid, upon this question, both in
that House and out of it. He trusted he should al-
ways be found conducting himself as a Gentleman and
a Nobleman ought 'to conduct himself; and unless the
changes about to take place proved very different
from what he anticipated, he was determined to
continue that fair and candid opposition which he had
hitherto endeavoured to display, whenever the question of
concession to the Catholics were brought before that House.
Feeling that he had always pursued that course, he could
not allow his conduct to be stigmatised by the appellations
either of factious or infamous.—( Hear, hear, hear.)
The Duke of SUSSEX thought it not at all desirable to
prolong this conversation, nor did he rise to do so; but he
thought it due to his Illustrious Brother (Clarence) to say
that his Noble Relation (Cumberland) had taken the ob-
servations of his Noble Brother in a sense in which they
were not meant to be applied. His Illustrious Brother ap-
plied the observation he had used to the conduct of all those
who had expressed violent opinions hostile to Catholic
Emancipation. If his Noble Relative applied these words
of condemnation to his own conduct, that was his own
taste ; all he (the Duke of Sussex) could say in justice to
his Noble Brother was, .that he did not mean any personal
offence to his Noble Relative. When, however, a Message
came from the Crown, recommending to Parliament the
consideration of the Question of Catholic disabilities in a
constitutional way, and in such a manner as may be found
consonant with the safety and security of the Protestant
Church, and the rights and liberties of the people, it cer-
tainly was not at all extraordinary his Noble Brother
should express his surprise at the course pursued by
many Noble Lords, in their opposition to his Majesty's
declared wishes and intentions, and that he should charac-
terise that conduct as base and infamous. His Illustrious
Brother did not, he repeated, intend to apply these obser-
vations to any individual; but with a feeling that this was
a question upon which the people of England ought not to
be misled, and that they ought not to be carried away
with the opinion of the only point in contention being
whether the country was to have a Popish or a Protestant
Parliament, he had designated the conduct of those who
endeavoured to mislead by the expressions to which his
Noble Relative alluded. His Illustrious Brother felt that
such assertions, coining from Noble Lords, were calcu-
lated to do mischief; that it was not treating the question
in that mild and constitutional way, which his Majesty
recommended, nor putting it fairly to the country. In
ohtis
lg
ht opinion
to
obe tche areNo
furlbhole
‘l:etehreey,
made
he
ad Members
staten,
enotsf,
or thatu sHedouse,
lan-
guage which might inflame the public mind, or raise un-
founded imputations against the conduct of those who felt
the settlement of- the Catholic Question to be necessary to
the prosperity of the empire.
The Duke of CLARENCE, in explanation, denied
that he either could, or did apply the expression which
had been alluded to in reference to his Illustrious Rela-
tive; but the fact was, his Illustrious Relative had spent
so much of his life abroad, that he had quite forgotten
what was due to the freedom of debate in this country,-
--(Hear, hear, hear.)
The Earl of ELDON rose to address the -House from
one of the cross benches. He proceeded to contend, that
thoOgh the expressions used by his Royal Highness the
Duke of Clarence did not immediately apply to his Noble
and Illustrious Relative, it was evident that they were ap-
plied to those who-thought and acted with that Noble
Duke in reference to this question. Now, with all deep
humility, and in the presence of that Noble and Illus-
trious Person (the Duke of Clarence), he (Lord Eldon)
would dispute the charge of base," or-infamous; or factious,
a- Iplied to his conduct on this occasion. It was not in
a i, ,se, or infamous, or factious manner 'that he opposed
the measures of the Noble'Duke (Wellington). He (Lord
Eldon) would tell that Noble Duke fairly, that-there was
no man he should lie more afraid to attack, but that he
- would find in him a generous enemy, and_that in opposing
din I-c would merely discharge his duty as an independent
Peer of that House. It was a mighty. easy thing for
Noble Lords to talk of the present situation of affairs; but
lie would say, may God grant that the country shall not
have to repent of these measures: at all events he (Lord
_Eldon) would (-lo his utmost to prevent this country from
sing converted to Popery, and from having, - instead of
a-Protestant Senate, a Popish Senate. (Laughter on
the Opposition Benches.) Some Noble Lords laughed
-at this, and laughter, from that side - of On House

Ile would assure them he con,laered a compliment—
:Re imagined that his observations would ne likely to
Trovoke rnore severe censure .firri-a`, them than to be
ttrtughol at in that mannet.. it was said that all the
,aprtsition to the rot!;t:nre was " factious ;" " fee-
vim's" was the at.1.0.q. employed, and such a charge Ile
'(Lord Elds?. would imequivc,,lty deny. h
impossitYle ),inn to forzet the tart) roved to
hr's vOtratrry and to the GarcTiaMen't ; and it Were fae-
eiiostA to stand by the mrcitty, to the Protestant
re' :ion, and Protestant State, dila Protestant Constitu-
ti,,,, as crot,thlisbed in 16.98.,!.e was ready at once to plead
gi.d.{,y to the charge. r:fft it was contended that the coun-
try IA not been by surprise. By the way, he might
Lore remark, tha'; of those measures which Ministers had
pledged therns..ives to introduce, he (Lord Eldon) A 'yet
knew notb;:ng, and he did not know as avhat light
he shou'.dconsider them until taware of their precise na-
C'tre. As yet those measltres which were so exeremt-
Ist-,ded on one side of the House, and to which to many
objections accra raised on the other sid,, Wi,re kuown to no
ost"—'Teay.)—No man as yet "itNiew what they were, and
it wns idle to deny that mallet such eircutn•tances the coun-
try had not been taken by surprise —(llesr.)—tie slit!
not say that the Noble Duke (Wellington) ints?-2A4
to
take the errantry by surprise, but be wwald rala 'what was
.the obvious conclusion to be drawn frNaa 'the Noble Duke's
?eV'er to Dr. Curtis ? The Noble and Learned Lord on
Woolsack knew that there was a manner in Which it
'might be attempted to 1161tince evidence, but in which Ole
Noble f.ord not he (Lord Eldon) would permit it n oe
.brolvh` eat-test-a. It was under such cirr,wt6.tances that
the evidence. in the letter to Dr. Curti 'nail found its way
before the public. That letter be (Lord Eldon) could
not easily understand, for the Noble Duke would allow
him to say that it w-as neither English nor Irish quire.
laugh.)---In one place it recommended the
of the question in oblivion, and it
`nett fe_tlnmended
that the interval should be emplqt'al to consider-
ing all the •iitficulties with which the subject was stir-
rountlzd. ,Now he (Lord Bblon) would ask, whether stay
twat living, who had veal that letter at the tirtl t Was
published, could have possibly expected that: the Catholic
Question would he recommended to the consideration of
Parliament in a message from the Throne on the sth of
Febreary fedlowing?—(Hear.)—He did not wish to be
traderstood to say that there was any impropriety in such
a message emanating front the Government, er that it
ought not to be attended to most testtettfolly by that

House. nut he conceived tint, in nbvlicnce to that me'-

s4ge, ths_tir Lordships ought tetntet. upon the consideration

of tf:e question itself beforti any Bills were presented to
tfrern. If the Bills were brought in first, and they then
suitered is an inquiry, it appeared to him that that would
he a new way of Liking the question into consideration.
The three illustrious persons who had ad;-tssed their Lord-
ships that evening had every right to give their assent, or
Co state their objections to the measnre about to be intro-
duced. But whether the opposition to his Majesty's Mi-
ni4ers should or should oat be characterised as factious, he
!Lord Eld/..-.1) had rimn for the purpose of saying th-At he
would ao his duty—his duty to thet HOUK° titid to the
Country—and that it was at present his conscientious con-
viction that he should oppose there measures, if they should
he such as he imagined they would be. But if he mis-

conceived those nic;sures, lie should be as glad e!.. any

man in the country if it were found necessary to abide by
them, provided that they were consistent with the Consti-
tution of the country.
Earl GREY said that Cleve were some things in the
Noble Earl's (Rhino's) speech which he (Lail Grey) could
not suffer to pass without animadversion. That that Noble
Earl would with ability, and by every meant likely to give
effect to his exertions, oppose the meerares of his Ma-
jesty's Ministers, he (Lord Grey) entertained no doubt;
nor did he believe that the Noble Earl would be deterred
by any imputation of factious motives from relaxing in his
opposition to those measures. But when that Noble Earl
repelled the imputation of " factious," he (Lord Grey)
would advise him to take care that his opposition should
be conducted in such a manner as not to deserve the name.

He (Lord Grey) had passed his political life in opposition,
and having been as much exposed as any man to the impu-
tation of "factious," he was not disposed to cast such an
iirtputatinn on the opposition of ethers. But he spoke now,
let it be recollected, of a fair, honest, legitintata opposition
in that House; and be must say, in justification of the
Royal Duke, who, in delivering an opinion that did biro

so much honour, with a patriotic zeal for the interests of
the country, and with an effect that must be followed by
important 'consequences throughout the -empire, had
spoken of the factious opposition against this Tines-
tion,—in justice to that Royal Duke; he (Earl Orey) must
say that his complaint was well put, and that he was
amply borne out by facts in making it. He would not
advert in that House to the publications in a portion of
the daily press with which they were every day disgusted,
and in which the private lives and the public conduct of
the supporters of these measures of concession and relief
were slranelessly attacked. But he would ask the Noble
Earl what had pansvd in that House ? What had he heard
there, even that very evening ? Opinions had been
broached which, at another: time, and under other cir-
cumstances, would have called for the reprobation and
censure of the House. Let Noble Lords oppose the :rex-
sure fairly, openly, and manfully, if they choose. Let
thew urge all the reasonings which they could collect upon
the subject against the measure, but let them not endea-
vour, by putting forward unjust representations of the mea-
sure, and sending forth assertions from that House as
watchwords through the country—watchwords of sedition
and treason—(hear, hear)—to arouse violence and inspire
resistance to the legitimate Government of the country.—
(Cries of " Hear, hear.")—Was it not stated that the So •

vereign would forfeit his diadem if he should give his con-
sent to the measure? lie would ask the Noble Earl if
th ,t were a fair, a legitimate species of opposition? Wag
it not stated in that [louse that if the King consented to
Vale measure he would renounce his religion and violate hie
coronation oath ?—(Hear, hear.)—Was that, he would
a;ain ask, a legitimate means of opposition, or did it not,
o.i the. contrary, well deserve the epithet of factious ? Was
it -not states, that if this measure passed, his Majesty's
right to the throne of these realms would cease?—(Loud
cries of " Hear, bear.")—Was not this doctrine broached,
and had not the Royal Duke the right to complain
of it ?----(Hear, hear, hear.)—Was it not stated, that
if this measure passed, not alone his present Ma-
jesty, but his whole family would be excluded- from
the throne, and that the right of succession would
not revert to the people and the Parliament, who had
conferred it, but to the obscure and almost unknown
House of Savoy ? These things having occurred in debate
in that House, the Royal Duke had every right to declare
his sentiments and to reprobate such a species of opposi-
tion..--( Hear, bear.)—The Noble Duke opposite (the Duke
of Cumberland) should seriously deliberate on the senti-
ments which lie delivered in that House, and on the effect
which they might produce in the country. The Noble
Duke had every right to arouse a reasonable and legitimate
resistance to the measure, such a resistance as loyal sub-
jects might give to the Government without exciting
amongst the ignorant and deluded,—if such there could be
found,—a furious zeal against the measure which was to
come before their Lordships. Ile (Lord Grey) could not
here help alluding to that assertion of the Noble Duke,
which he had not attempted to maintain by argument, that
the question now was, whether this was to be a Popish or
a Protestant Government, a Popish or a Protestant Par-
liament. He was sure that that illustrious person must
have viewed the question in the manner in which he had
expressed, and that he adhered to the conscientious opinion
which he then expressed. But in putting it forward
as an argument against the measure, its effect must be
had. Let Noble Lords reflect but for a moment on the
mischief which must follow such a declaration going forth
front that House, and from such a quarter, describing
the measure as fraught with such evils to the religion
of the country. What must be its effect on the country ?
was it not calculated to operate as a watchword through-
out the land—to introduce violent feelings amongst the
people, and to excite a spit it he was sure that no one
would regret more sincerely than the Noble Duke himself?
Hear.)—He (Lord Grey) could not refrain from saying
thus much. The Noble Earl (Eldon) would, no doubt,
appose this measure witri his wonted talent and ability.
He (Lord Gray), whenever this discussion came before
their Lordships, would pledge himself to refute the Noble
Earl's doctrines with regard to the constitution of the
country, and to prove that the Noble- Earl's statement that
these laws, which were now about being repealed, formed
a fundamental part of the Constitution, was entirely un-
founded. The Noble Earl had alluded to the laughter
which had proceeded from tau.se benches, and be remarked
that he considered it a compliment. He (Lord Grey) had
often opposed the Noble Earl, but he hail always respected
his ability and knowledge. When, however, he heard a
certain proposition promulgated—that if this measure
were passed we should have a Popish instead of a Protes-
tant Parliament,—when he heard such au opinion as
that expressed, he would confess that he could not com-
pletely restrain those feelings which were usually mani-
fested by laughter. He (Lord Grey) had not originally
intended to say so much, and he had only trespassed so far
on their Lordships' attention in order to justify the use of
the epithet tvhich a Noble Duke who had spoken early in
the debate bad applied to the opposition to this measure.
The Duke of WELLINGTON would only trouble their
Lordships with a few words. It waa riot his intention to
talc; ply part ill silo discositm, `
whisk be mut gay Lad

been so very irregular and so contrary to the rules of that
nou,e. That such a discussion was irreg,ttlat,.WAs.
dent at once from the fact, thttt aL iiitAe.nt no One
peer in that 1i0u..! they Vvha't r,:2'7e the ibeasures of the
Govvr,'_7lt2ln't. to explain as to the
lettt..r f.O 01;6 t'‘A'.'ince bad been made by his Noble and
n.iemd (Lord Eldon). His Noble Friend had said,
that he would oppose him, but that he would be a gene-
rous enemy. lie (the Duke of Wellington) could never
consider him' as an enemy in any light whatever. He
could not forget his old habits of friendship with Ida
Friend ; and if he differed fro.. hit” nt this snhject, he

could never lose the feVTinks of respect which he ahvays
entert:kii,,A I',.s Noble Friend. His Noble Friend WO.

tt.t.:el'ien to his (the Duke of Welliorrton's) W.'fitter to Dr.
ttirtiss, shoiv tha't, -the 6.-arilery had been taken by sur-
frise. Tie ne•-,n• I'n'iended that letter for publication, and
With 't'„ publication of it he had nothing to do. But his
Noble Friend said, that the expressions used in that let':'?r
were such as to lead the public to conclt'h '",.Tta no plea-
sure of consequence Nvott!(!b'n this session. llis

Nob!e Friend `iCttoilect that the expressions used

there ttit "6:,2Arly similar to those which he (the Duke of
it gton) employed at the close of the htst session of
Parliament. How it appeared that he (thp, Duke of WO'.
lington) intended to surrise the pthik; V•7,.101 te never
addressed the letter to the todvhhuai to whom it was di-

rectefl for the rtrte "6f publication, much less had any
hat!!! ;n '.ll'..!pl'inlication of it, he was at a loss to conceive.
iitt'i:ould not sit down without deprecating the spirit in

which these discussions were conducted Itffr! he would
beg to remind Noble Lords tin..t Itt.s iblajesty Ltd recom-
mended them to consider' question with " temperance
and mndetatims.,'

The nail of ELDON explained. Ile never meant to

'tty that the Noble Duke intended to take the country by

surprise. lie merely said, that without su...h ait
on the part of the Noble Duke, the toUe.try had been ac-

wally taken bz
Earl OL ir said that it was now his duty to present to
th`i!l-i• 'Lordships a petition of the same nature and with the
same oltjects as that which had been just laid on their table.
It was a petition which, during the last '2,', he had
had the honour of prescntinif tc that House. It war the
petition of ths3 13.0tt aii tatholics of England, and it was

sigue4 !tt!,4st tittnerouslc an •I respectably, by all the Roman
Ca hnlie Nobility, Aristocracy, and a great portion of the
Catholic :popul ttion of this country. At the head of it
was the signature of the Earl Marshal of England, the
Duke of Norfolk, and to his Grace's name succeeded those
of all the Catholic Nobility and G'entiry in England. On
this ercasion, as on all others, the petitioners began by
praying the House to take their claims into consideration ;
and those claims he would rest. np,,n the grounds of justice
and policy—on the ground of justice, as the petitioners
prayed relief front disabilities which could net he imposed
upon any English subject, except on account of some great
state necessity, as their inAietion was to hint a grievous
wrong.; and no the ground of policy, because the peace
!tn,l sakty of this great empire had been too long endangered
by a divided Government, Parliament, and people. The

W LS)

petitioners, in his mind, partly considered it to he an ag-
gravation of the injury of their sufferings, that it should he
imputed to them that their end was a monopoly or an
ascendancy in the advantages of the Constitution, and not
an equality of political rights. He referred to this well-
founded cempleint, because the unjust imputation, or ra-
ther calumny, upon the petitioner*, which gave rise to it,
had proceeded from a quarter whence he least expected
it. He (Earl Grey) considered that no greater error
could be made, or a more unjust imputation be alleged,
than to charge the Catholic religion with being essentially-
prolific of immorality and superstition. He believed that
there was a great deal of error in that religion ; but he
must still proclaim it unjust to confound its doctrinal im-
perfections with its essential principles, or the principles
and conduct of its professors.—(Hear.)—On that point he
confidently appealed to their Lordships whether the Ro-
man Catholic Church had not, in every age, furnished
• from its ranks examples of the most conscientious rectitude,
sincere piety, and the most heroic devotion,—(Hear,
hear.)---He appealed er the conduct of the Catholics
of England Were tot then and always as loyal anti constitu-
tional as any other class of his Majesty's subjects. If the
members of any Christian denomination were to be
" judged by their fruits," he would ask, what denomination
could boast of more illustrious ashes—of more distin-
guished citizens—of more heroic defenders of liberty ? He
could not but lament that such unjust imputations as those
he had alluded to hid been alleged against the Catholics,
and he could not hesitate to join with the petitioners in
proclaiming those imputations to be most unfounded calum-
nies. Noble Lords who shot those poisoned arrows did
not sufficiently consider the wounds they inflicted. What
was the answer to those who charged the Catholic religion
with being in its nature corrupt and demoralising ? In the
first place, if true, it would be charging the large majority
of the Christian world with having been followers of a
corrupt and demoralising religion; for the Catholic form
of Christianity was that which had prevailed in the Chris-
tian world for ages. More than that, the Catholic religion
was the predominant one at that moment among Christians
for the Catholics wera by much the most numerous of
those classes or branches, into which, since the Reforma-
tion, Christianity had divided itself. Those who argued
thus on the corrupt and demoralising nature of the Catholic
faith, forgot that it was from the votaries of that faith that
their Lordships, end all other Protestants, received the
Christian dispensation itself. It was therefore not only un-
charitable, but actually unwise, to cast those unjust impu-
tations upon a religion that was not ahme the only religion
of the ancient Christian world (still that which had most
followers), but the source whence the reformed religion
itself hail sprung, and had received the means of its growth,
maturity, and permanence. He repeated, that he believed
the Catholic tenets to be much mixed up with error ; but
he still thought it too much for a frail human being to pro-
nounce on the final consequences of those errors.—(Hear.)
He thought that, so long as the Deity was worshipped in
perfect sincerity, and in the same spirit of humble desire to
be enlightened, it was not for frail humanity, to attempt to
divide man from man, and sow disunion in the Christian
world, merely on account of doctrinal or disciplinarian
differences. In presenting the petition, he thought it
right to state, that the numerous and respectable body
from whence it came rested in perfect confidence on the
gracious recommendations that had proceeded from the
Throne in favour of them and their brethren in Ireland.
He confidently hoped that their expectations would he
realized ; indeed, after what he had heard that night,
he could not harbour a doubt.—(Hear, hear, bear.)—
He then presented the petition, with a conviction that its
prayer would be granted, and with a hope that it would
be the last which he should have ever occasion to bring
under their Lordships' notice.—( Hear, hear.)—He trusted
that before another Session—indeed in a few weeks—he
might be able to congratulate the Duke of Norfolk, and
the other Catholic Peers who had signed the petition, not
as strangers outside the bar, but as Peers in their places in
that House.—(Cheers.)—He looked to that among other
consequences of the intended measure of Ministers; far,
though he was not acquainted with the exact nature of
that measure, he rested satisfied, on the confession of the
Noble Duke at the head of the Government, that it would
he one of extensive relief, inasmuch as it went to repeal
all disabilities (with one or two exceptions) affecting the
Roman Catholics. Ile trusted, indeed he was confident,
that it would not be clogged with such securities as would
destroy its efficacy. To securities, other than equal rights
and equal protection by the laws, and equal interest in the
integrity of the State, afforded, he was ever in principle
opposed. He, however, in the case of the intended mea-
sure, would not object to such as would satisfy the con-
scientious Protestants, while they did not trench upon the
just right.; of the Catholics. In a word, he would not
then object to such securities as would ensure the success
of the measure, by allaying the apprehension of all parties.
He hoped the securities would not be a new source of dis-
content, but would be just and conciliatory. The Noble
Eatl concluded with presenting the petition.
Lord REDESDALE was sure that the Catholics, as
Catholics, could not give the Protestants of this country
satisfactory security for the integrity of their Protestant in-
stitutions. Beside', thu Roman Catholics in Ireland had
reiterated their declarations that they would not offer any
security, anti would not accept of any thing but uncondi-
tional emancipation.
Earl GREY presented a petition from the members of
the legal profession of Newcastle-upon-Tyne, in favour of
the Catholic claims. Among the petitioners was Mr.
Reeves, a contemporary of a Noble anti Learned Lord
(Eldon) then present, who was competent, and he was
sure willing, to bear testimony to that Gentleman's
respectability.
The Earl of ELDON was very willing to bear tes-
timony to Mr. Reeves' respectability and professional
reputation.
Earl GttEY next presented a petition from the Unita-
rian Christians of Hanover-square, Newcastle, and an-
other from Drogheda, in favour of the Catholic claims.
The Bishop of BATH and WELLS presented a retition
from Radstock, Somerset, against any further concession
to the Catholics. The Right Rev. Prelate said, the pe-
titien, which was a parochial one, expressed the feelings
of the inhabitants of Somerset, who were to one men
hostile to further concessions. They expressed the grounds
of their hostility strongly, yet decorously ; and were sur-
prised, that in the 19th century Protestants should he
found to propose and sanction measures likely to endanger
the Yroteetant estaLplidkaueata of the country. Hi., own

opinions etintititt!, , with those siaied in the pe-
t.;tio.

The Earl of CARNARVON begged leave to respect-
fully, but most emphatically, deny, that the parochial peti-
tion just presented by the Right Rev. Prelate expres,,ed the
feelings of the people of Somerset on the Catholic Claims,
and to deny that the people of that county were to a man
hostile to those claims. Ile hPld three roofl to the Ctut-

trary in his hard.—three petitions crom three parisheS in
Sorattsetshi're in faYout•
.of EinancipaCion tF,eetlly
disproving the Rigid Rev. Prelate's assertion. If the
Right Rey. Prelate expressed his wonder that in the 19th
century there mould be found those who would propose
'e,:cliiares like those shortly to be before their LordshipS, he
(Lord Carnarvon) must much more express his Wonder;
that in the 19th century there should be found persoin so
blinded by prejudice and ignori..ke as lo oppose measures in
favour of an 4 religious liberty, and conducive to the
of all classes of the community. (Hear.) It was
easy to explain the manner in which petitions like that pre-
sented by the Right Rev. Prelate were got up.
The Bishop of BATH and WELLS disclaimed lisylnz
any share in the getting un cf tll^ yttitiohS which he felt it
t, be to present to their Lordships, against the
itollitin Catholics.

The Earl of CARNARVON did not mean to charge

the Right Rev. Prelate with having personally drawn up
any of those petitions., Ail he reli7!int to convey to the
Eight Rev. Prelate anti their Lordships was, that he and
11 ty Would deceive themselves if they supposed that those
petitions expressed the unanimous feelings of the people of
Somersetshire on the Catholic question.
The Bishop of BATH and WELLS presented six peti-
tions from places in Somersetshire. and one from the Arch-
deaconry of Saruinl egaintt any further concessions to the
Roinati Catholics.

The Earl of CARNARVON presented a petition from
the inhabitants of a district in Somersetsbire, in favour of
extending the privileges of the Roman Catholic subjects of

its realm.

After a few observations from the bishop of BATH and

The Earl of CARNARVON beard with unfeigned mar-

prise that the population generally of this place were un-
favourable to the Catholic Claims. Some opposition had

been created, by persons interested in the continuance of
the present system of exclusion ; but whatever might be
the feeling amongst the Clergy, certainly the body of the

people there Were well-dispos:a to concession, and had ma-
nifested no symptom of dissent to the measure of relief
c intemplated by his .Majesty's Ministers.
The Earl of ELDON presented petitions against fur-
ther ceneession to the Roman Catholics from the inhahitant

of the town of D. nbigh ; from those of Monmouth; of the

County of Pembroke; and the Minister and congregation
of a chapel in Denbighshire—all in Wales: also from the
inhabitants of Deering- Lonsd,le, from those of Kirby-
Lonsdale awl Kirin• Moor-side, in Westmoreland
front Witney, in Oxfordshite; front the pa•iih of Bolton,

and from Halifax; from several p Irishes in the County of
Suffolk ; from Stowe and Hartwell in Buckinghamshire;
from Warwick, from Haverill, from the Protestant Dis-

seaters of Broad-street Chapel, Loudon, and a number of
other places, the names of which it was impossible to as-
certain from the low tone in which they were announced.
The Earl of LIMERICK presented the petition of the
very populous parish of St. Mary, in the vicinity of Loudon,

n favour of further concession to the Roman Catholics.

In this parish the fr:aing, he was happy to learn, was
almost unanimously with the proposed measure of his
Majesty's Ministers.
The Marquis of DOWNSIIIRE presented a similar pe-
tition from certain inhabitants of the county of Down in
Ireland.

The Duke of WELLINGTON presented a petition
which he had been assured had been most numerously
and respectably signed by a number of Magistrates, above
50 clergymen, and other resident persons in or near the
town of Manchester, to the amount of U,SOO
praying that further political concessions and plivileges
shou!d not he granted to his Majesty's Catholic subjects.
The Earl of ELDON supported the petition.

Earl GREY contended that the petition should not be
takea as expressive of the general s,mse of the town of
Manchester and its population. This petition had been
lying for signature ever since the 24th of November last,
and as the place contained above 62,000 persons, and only
22,000 had signed, it could not be supposed to speak the
opinion of more than one-third of the inhabitants, if so
much. He made this reserve, because he had heard that

iii their anxiety to obtain signatures the agitators of this
petition had called in children at Sunday schools, servants,
notorious paupers, and even persons in the work-house.—
(Hear.) Petitions had lain at the Cotrunerciahrooins,

both at the Portico and the Exchange, for several days,
and yet hut a few hundred had signed them ; he believed
600 or 700 in one instance, and 1,100 in another. He
admitted it was likely, as those places were the resort of

the first persons and principal merchants, the signatures
might be those of very respectable persons ; but such were
not generally the class of subscribers annexed to this peti-
tion. In fact, there could be very little doubt with any
man acquainted with the true state of public opinion at
Manchester, that it was on the whole favourable to eman-
cipation.
The Earl of ELDON defended the petition, and begged
the Noble Earl would look over the names subscribed,
amongst whom he could not but perceive tn:iny of the
most respectable persons in that commercial place.
Earl GREY said, be had spoken advisedly, and from
very excellent information, as to the mode in which the pe-
tition had been su'uscribed.
The Duke of WELLINGTON had been induced to
present the petition, which had been handed to him for
that purpose by a very respectable gentleman. Ile could
not, under such circumstances, be expected to answer for
all the signatures attached to it; but he believed, and had
been assured, many of them were nersons of respectabi-
lity. It had, he believed, been handed about from house
to house for signature, and of course many of the names
were those of the occupiers of such _houses. The Noble
Duke then presented a similar petition from (as we col-
lected the petitioner's name) Thomas Pike Farmer.
Lord LORTON presented the petition of the Pro-
testants of the town of Tyrawly, in Ireland, against further
concession to the Roman Catholics.
The Earl of MOUNTCASIIEL presented the petition
of the Mayor and Corporation of the city of Cork against
concession, and a similar petition from the parish of Bally-
organ, in the same county.
Viscount CLIFDEN presented a petition in favour of
concession from the parish of Craig, Kilkenny ; also other
petitions from the same place, against the 'Select Vestry
Bill, and the Sub letting Bill. Ile congratulated their
Lordships on having had the pleasure to hear from the
mouth of a Noble and Royal Duke, the heir presumptive
to the throne of these realms, a speech so fraught with
sentiments calculated to do him honour.
The Earl of SIIAFTESBURY presented a petition from
Grimsby against further concession to the Catholics.
DANGEROUS ASSOCIATION SUPPRESSION

BILL.
The Noble Earl then moved the Order of the Day for
bringing up the Report of the Dangerous Association in
Ireland Suppression Bill.
The Earl of MOUNTCASHEL believed it was really
the intention of his Majesty's Ministers to redeem the
pledge they had given to the country respecting this Bill
now in progress through their Lordships' House. There
were two points to which he wished to draw the attention
of the Noble Duke. The first was, that he was apprehen-
sive the restriction was toe vague and general, and might
possibly he perverted to the purpose of putting down socie-
ties or associations of a harmless or even laudable character
in Ireland. It might thus not only give an authority to
the magistrates to put down illegal and dangerous societies,
but possibly furnish a pretext for putting down associations
clearly of a beneficial character, such as those for charita-
ble purposes, or for the purposes of extending education
throughout a population which so much needed it. It
was the universal rule with those bodies not to interfere
in political matters ; and hence it might be asked by Noble
Lords, how was it possible that such associations, particu-
larly Haase for education, could come within the scope of
the Bill: To this he would answer, that the whole Ca-
tholic priesthood of Ireland had always shown them-
selves, and continued, hostile to the efforts of the
better orders in affording instruction to the Catholic
population. Their objections were not confined to
adults, and they sedulously resisted every attempt to teach
Catholic children even to spell, or acquire their alphabet.
Their power, it was natural to infer, would not decrease
when the contemplated measure of relieving the Catholics
from their present disabilities should be carried into execu •
tion ; and they, no doubt, would be opposed in spirit and
in action to their Protestant benefactors. Already they
had assumed in Ireland a new tone, and within the last 10
days they had sent the mob in thousands to wieak their
vengeance on individuals whom they chose to consider
their opponents. This spirit would not cease hereafter to
operate when hacked by increase of political power. He
trusted they would receive an assurance from the Noble
Duke that those associations now existing, founded on the
basis of charii,tyyaantl the extensionyvaguenaesor ofed
perversion
lioon s
f,
tiliheoutlid not
be
fate of associations of an injurious or dangerous
sbiemsrtei ftt.ehreetl ,
character. There was another subject he should advert to,
and that was, the use now made, or likely to be hereafter
made, of churches or chapels, or other places of public
worship, for the purposes of party, or seditious IIibCCALMS,

under tie guise of sermons. Places of public troiship
should never be abused, or applied to purposes of political
. .

_ .
discussion : and unless some clauses, not now in the Bill,

were introduced to prevent the possibility of this recurrence,
he could assure the Noble Duke, from his own experience,
that the attempt would be made to pervert these meetings,
which ought to be strictly of a religious charecter, to very
d ingerotia objects by the priesthood and othall i❑ Ireland.
Indeed, withoilt a clause ekpittssly framed to meet this evil,
he had no doubt the Dill must fail of its highly desirable
object.

The Duke of WELLINGTON said, that with regard
to the first point, he hq;gell their Lordships to bear in
mind; that poN,-er V.-as vested in the Lo.rd Lieutenant to de=
dare any Meetin.g. or Assembly ttnlawful, and upon notice
that it was so, he might grant a warrant to two Magis-
trates to disperse the Meeting or Assembly. For the
exercise of this power the Lord Lieutenant was responsible,
and he believed that the Noble Earl would admit that if tl.e
Lord Lieutenant was responsible, it was not likely that he
would issue his warrant to disperse any meeting or assembly
for flit, putposes of charity; of edUcation, or of any other
beneficial purpose such as those referred to by the Noble
Earl. Neither was the Lord Lieutenant likely to disperse
any Meeting or Agientbly which had a leg-al and beneficial
object, merely because that object was likely to be ob-
noxious to others. The Lord Lieutenant would be respon-
sible for his acts, exercised under the authority give n by
this Act of Parliament. With respect to the other point
stated by the Noble Lord, as to the use of chapels for the
purposes of seditious meeting., he begged to say that there
was nothing in the Act which would either directly or in-
directly warrant their being applied to such an use. The
Act would enable the Lord Lieutenant to issue his warrant
to two Magistrates to put down seditious meetings wherever
he was informed they were held. The Noble Lard had
spoken of seditious sertnons. If such sermons were
preached, the preachers would he answerable to the law of
the land.

The Earl of MOUNTCASHEL spoke of the difficul-
ties which the accuser might find in proving the accu-
sation of sedition. Ile knew how difficult it would be to
bring forward Roman Catholics to prove that any seditious
sermons bad been pruached, or any seditious speeches used
either in their chapels or at their meetings. There was a
system of intimidation throughout the country, and they
knew that no pro,•ecutors would come forward to pet form
such a duty. This act would not prevent the seditious
meetings ; reports of them might be sent to the Lord
Lieutenant, but by that time the injury would have been
done. He, for one, was convinced that instead of this Bill
tranquillising Ireland, in less than a year that country

would be worse than it was at present.
Lord TIEDESDALE believed that this Bill would not
prevent seditious meetings in Chapel+. They must be
aware that the body against whom the Bill was directed
was very skilful in the evasion of Acts of Parlia-
ment. There was one subject to which he wished parti-
.

cularly to call the Noble Duke's attention. As the Bill
stood at present, if any persons assembled for an innocent
purpose, they were not secure against the misconduct of
others, who might go thither for the very purpose of
making the meeting a riotous assembly. He did not think
this a very improbable occurrence, since it had actually t.iken
place in this very town of London. lie therefore pro-
posed to the Noble Duke to insert a clause to this effect—
" That the Lord Lieutenant shall not have authority to
issue a was rant for the suppression of any Society on the
ground of a disturbance of the public peace happening
therein, through the intrusion of persons not members of
that Society." Ile repeated, that as this had actually taken
place in London, he thought its occurrence ought to be
guarded against in Ireland. He unfortunately knew a great
deal of the character of the people, and he did not think it
had been much improved since he left the country. If they
were left to themselves, they were quiet enough ; but un-
fortunately their proceedings were not at present of that
description. Whets he was in Ireland he saw many Roman
Catholic Priests, and many of them were of very respecta-
ble families, and were very respectable men. One of
them said to him, " You have made a great mistake in
establishing the education of Priests in this country ;
was the younger son of a younger branch of a family
of good property, and I was sent to Salamanca for
soy education. I there received the education of a gen-
tleman, and 1 associated with gentlemen, many of whom
were nut intended for the clerical profession. I was
not taught to preach against submission to the Go-
vernment of Ireland. I was taught that it was ne-
cessary to have a Government, and that submission was
due to it, and I received my instructions with persons who
were in a course of education. for the order of priesthood
in Spain,"—a body of men that would certainly be taught
props iety and submission to the Government of their coun-
try. The difference now was very great. It was owing
to the educating of priests at Maynooth. As the means of
educating men there were easy of access to all classes of
people—many of them were of the lowest description.—
Instead, therefore, of having a Clergy of Gentlemen, they
had now a Clergy of a very different sort. There were
other particulars which he might have mentioned, but
which he had not adverted to, though they would have cO3-
finned his idea of the subject, and he might mention that
he hail himself seen persons at Maynooth brought up in a
manner not likely to make them good subjects. He had
spoken with persons of other countries who entertained the
saute opinions which he had just expressed. Ile thought
they should contrive that the Roman Catholic Clergy
should be of a different description of persons from what
the Resnais Catholic Priests were now in that country.—
They ought to be brought up with a good dispo-
sition towards the Government. Much of the disturb-
ances that had lately existed in Ireland, were owing to
their not being so brought up. There was scarcely an in-
stance which did not prove what he had said. He had
one further observation to snake, and he was sure it would
be confirmed by the Roman Catholic gentry in Ireland, and
that was, that they were not treated in the same manner
as they had been some time ago. He had not the
least doubt that that circumstance was owing to the edu-
cation of the priests in Ireland. Formerly the persons
who presented to the livings in Ireland were the Ro-
man Catholic gentlemen, and they were then treated
with respect. There was a sort of union between the
priest and the inhabitant of the parish. There was
now no such union. The priest was not now ap-
pointed to the parish of hie birth. When the estates of the
Roman Catholic gentry had been confiscated, and had
passed into the hands of Protestants, the descendants of
the Catholic proprietors were allowed to present the Ca-
tholic Priests to those parishes where they formerly held
livings. There was then a sort of reciprocal good feeling
thus kept tip between the gentry and the priesthood, espe-
cially when in former days the gentry used to present their
younger sons or their friends to these parishes. That sort
of nomination was now at an end, since the Priests had
been educated at the College of Maynooth, and it was im-
possible there should be any of that sort of connection since
the ties of family and education had been thus changed.
Their Lordships must know that the respectability of the
Clergy ought to be preserved by their education, and if he
was rightly informed, so far from that being the case with
the present Priesthood of Ireland, that they were of the
lowest order. He knew these things from having, in the
course of his duty, visited the College of Maynooth, in
which, however, the officers of the Government had but

little real power or controul, far being but four persons,
the Lord Chancellor, the two Chief Justices, and the Chief
Baron, they xvere outnumbered by the five on the other
side, and could consequently effect nothing of importance
with regard to the regulations of the College. He thought
that good order ought to be restored among the people.
The character of the lower orders of people in Ireland was
of that sort, that if not urged by persons who meant mis-
chief, they would go on with great quiet. ( The Noble
Lord here sat down very abruptly, and apparently under
the influence of some strong and sudden excitement of
feeling.) ,
A NOBLE LORD believed that the character just given
of the present priesthood of Ireland was perfectly true.
'lhey were adverse to any thing like the real improvement
of Ireland.
Lord REDESDALE observed, that what had affected
him so much just now, was his strong recollection of the
personal attachment which had been shown him by the
lower classes in Ireland. He spoke mast especially of
those who were his own workmen.
The Earl of WICKLOW declared, that in his opinion,
the Roman Catholic Clergy of Ireland did not, hi the least
degree, deserve the character which had just been given
them by the two Noble Lords 'rho had preceded him. He
knew that many of them were of the lower descriptions
of persons ; but, generally speaking, they were well dis-
posed towards the Government ; and when that great
measure, which was now in agitation, should have been
carried, the Roman Catholic priesthood would chew them-
selves as loyal and well disposed as any other men.
The Marquis of DOWNSHIRE agreed fully with
what had fallen from the Noble Earl, as to the good dispo-
sition of the Catholic Clergy. They had a most difficult
ta-k to perform. They had the care of a large population,
that in many parts of Ireland had not received any of the
advantages that flow from extended instruction. They had
been hitherto an excluded portion of the King's subjects,
and, some allowance must be made for the situation in which
they had thus been placed. They were otherwise well dis-
posed towards the Government. Ile did not know what
the measure was which the Noble Duke intended to lay
before the House, but he lakd COMM to believe that it Would

be satisfactory to all parties, nnd wai sure it wotld be
highly useful to the country.
The Report was received, and the Bill ordered to Le
committed to-morrow.—Adjourned at a Quarter to Nine.

)

for filling up the (hop links in the historical proceedings °I
the whole House, by putting on the Journals proceeding'
in Select Committees, incorporated with the proceeding°
of the whole House. This he merely threw out as a sug",
gestion well worthy of consideration.
SUPPLY.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved
the Order of the Day for bringing up the Report of ths
Committee of Supply.
Mr. O'NEILL wished to ask the Right Hon. Gentle'
man if any step had been taken towards the abandonmen/
of Sierra Leone, a place which was more fit for the trans'
portation of criminals than the establishment of a color/.
Sir G. MURRAY said that lie had received no intints'
tion that this question Would be put to him, but he had n"
objection to answer it. /le eves not aware that there %Si
any immediate intention of abandoning that colony, byt I
steps had been taken to reduce its expenses itith a view tt
its ultimate abandonment, but that was a step Which fl
\mild be very injudicious to carry atiruptly into effect.
Mr. HUME said, that front the understanding whit,
existed last Session he did expect that something wont
he done respecting this colony. But for this understandingbe
would hare brought forward a motion upon the subject'
fur the colony of Sierra Leone had been the tomb of !nor°
Englishmen than all our other colonies together. Goof'
nor after governor, and corps after corps, was swept aws/'
and it Was necessary to send out the various officers in tri"
plicate to supply the horrible mortality. He regretted the,
answer which hail been given, and if no one elsa soul'
bring forward a motion on the subject, he would do f 4
himself.
Sir G. MURRAY said that he had merely etated elf
difficulties of carrying such a matter into execution.
Mr. HUSKISSON had never intimated to any Off
during the time that he had the honour to hold the sells
of the Colonial Department, that it was in the contemplv
tion of his Majesty's Gevernment to withdraw .our eats'
blishments altogether from Sierra Leone. Every step
practicable, however, had been taken to reduce the mot'
tality in that colony; and with that view the ditties of ll
had been made to devolve as much as possible on the rr
luntary residents in the colony, and on the African core'
When he stated that the private property in buildings, be'
in the colony amounted in value to above a million sterling::
it would at once Le seen that any sudden abandonment 01
it would be attended with injustice as well as with diffr
culty. The same obstacles, however, did not exist with
reference to Cape Coast Castle.
Lord NUGENT, adverting to the Reports made by the
Commissioners, who, three years ago, were sent out to W.'
quire into the state of our Colonies on the coast of Africa'
wished to know whether it was intended, in the peesen; ;
Session, to introduce any measure founded on those Report,*
General OASCOYNE observed, that if no other Moab°,
would do so, he would move for a return of the number °`
Europeans who had been lost in a Colony more destructiO
to human life than any establishment of a similar kind tbat
had ever existed.
Sir G. MURRAY said, since he had entered upon °Ore'
had endeavoured to pave the way lOr an ultimate abandon'
meat of the Colony, and should be very happy whenever
might be in his power to propose carrying that object 0
effect.
•
Lord NUGENT said a few words in explanation.
THE CANADAS.
Mr. LABOUCHERE wished to ask whether it was tit"
intention of Ministers to propose any measures, or give la'
informatien to the House, respecting the large and imporP
ant Colony of Canada. He was peculiarly anxious for ir
formation on this subject before any money was spent iet
the defence of that settlement. The same unfortunate dir
scution, of which so much had been heard, was still reign'
ing in Lower Canada. The Report of the Canada COT'
mittce bad been received in that country with gratitnt
and he greatly feared the consequences of disappointing t'
expectations it had been the means of raising.
Sir GEORGE 'MURRAY conceived that incase°
might be adopted to improve the situation of that colon/'
and it was his sincere wish to effect that object. He 'II;
not at that moment able to state to the House what wow,
be precisely the measures adopted for the purpose—for th!'
reason, that it was necessary to obtain further common':
cation from Canada uron many points upon which tb
Hon. Gentleman opposite, as an active Member of the CI
nada Committee, must be aware there was a great dee
ciency of information.—The report was then read.
Mr. HUME wished to advert to the petitions that Pvi
been presented to time House, praying for a reduction
taxation. Notwithstanding the very strong assuraneL
held out to the country in the last Session—notwithstanu.,
ing what,: the Finance Committee meant, the three On/
mates on the tattle of the House only differed by 231,000'1
from those of the preceding year, the aggregate anioon,
being 13,753,5:331. The
its,
sltwT.B2,ltti:e3i
e.tol estimates of 1828 had exceed
by
economy,
nauomrpui
rtnsi
ttA.,
,thLhiaeottntAel,ifei
nlrleosist,sei.reflect
. recommendationnt
ann tdlti
06
which there had been no reductions made by Governme:
worth speaking of. Minister had pledged themselves tho'
every possible fednetion should be made. The idea that er
fOrce of eighty-nine thousand men was necessary in a time''
profound peace was perfectly preposterous. Half tb‘,
number would be enough for the service of the country'l
He protested against the scale on which "Ministers were
proceeding.
The resolutions were then agreed to seriatim.
Upon the rote for the support of the Royal Militia,
College being put,
Mr. lIUME objected to the scale of this establishment,
and especially to the allowances to the Governor. Theta
,
was also the charge for an agent at between two and then
hundred a-year ; and he should like to know what cool
be the necessity for four clerks and for a secretary, '4lB°l
lie believed, resided in London. The expences were u 5.
wards of 2,0001. a-year, and they ought to he reduced'/
• vi
Sir HENRY HARDINGE had already explained
the:House that the Governor of this Institution ought.
be an officer of rank and of some experience in the serviet,
and a gentleman highly qualified to perform his dues;
This, he believed, was now the case. There had been
,i
progressive saving in the establishment. There had alrea',
been a saving of 1,000/. a-year on the original expende/
ture of 12,9001., and he thought that would be suffieic!,
to satisy the House that every attention had been paid ``i
economical reduction. The Government would be foil
to hare no Secretary.; there had been a Clerk attached A
the Gi• but his offir was and this forrer

to Governor, but ice given up,
a part of the reduction. The Agent had been appointecia
when the College had been larger, and it had been foriO(
more economical to give him a fixed salary than a re
tentage.
Mr. HUAIE thought the Mutiny Bill ought to be re.'
duced three-fourths.
Sir HENRY HARDINGE said, that it would be re
duced this year by one-half. He understood that Sir
Becket was instructed to bring in the new Bill.—The ooti'
mates were then passed.
LIFE ANNUITIES.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER 1101,'
the Order of the Day for the House resolving itself into c
Committee of the whole House on the Life Annuities
He begged to remind the House that the Act which b
recently been in force to grant annuities had limited tbl:
grants strictly to Lice Annuities. It had prescribed
rules under which parties might have annuities on one 1;
upon joint lives, or upon lives in reversion. It was noW
intention to extend the previous measure so as to give polOor
to the Commissioners to grant annuities for wino
years, either commencing at the period when the
4Pirt.o
01

made the payment, or at a later period, or after a
number of years, or after some life on which the Pl,r'
might wish to be secured. Those who were not of a P".„4
vident disposition, were generally little inclined to re
money down with a view of gaining an increased incoili
at the end of a certain number of years. He, therefo,fe;
(lid nut calculate upon any considerable amount of soar!?
upon this principle. With respect to deferred annwti
after a definite period, persons might be aware of cireto;
stances which might make it prudent to make a aces
for a period for the sake of a future advantage. 113„"Iii
Bill he was about to introduce, he intended to inc 1,1
every possible variation of annuities. The next imp9l'd
point to which lie wished to allude was the *iterate!'
the tables on which lie proposed te make his calculation
The former Acts had adopted the Northampton Table,
which had been found to give a less favourable represent;
thin of human life than actual experience authorised tbeto
to entertain. Front the deaths entered in the varioo
great Assurance Offices, and from the known great proPl
of those establishments, it had been found that Dr. Fric'y
tables did not give a fair estimate of the value of life. to
had been found that longevity had much increased of
years. Dr. Price's tables Lad been calculated with rei`je;
ences to the deaths of only one town in England, and,
a very limited period, (luring which the deaths in „,,
thampton had even- exceeded the births, notwithstanal
cba
which the population had increased. It was obviolel
therefore, deaths must have been included of peisons %°,OO
were nut in existence in that town when the calculatio
commenced. In order to ascertain the real term of IWO,
life, the observations ought to be made upon persona ft
ti c commencement of their existence to its terminat,")
without any admixtuie of other parties. In order to C 0
rect the errors of the Northampton Telles, a c.aleulsVo
had some time since commenced upon data which 0:01,
likely to produce proper results. These data were, It
-• • _ r .gr 110')

liveswithin the United Kingdom ; then, a fair claw'?
Lion of the whole Tontine of 1693, ending in 1792•