The Sun.
London, England, 1842-05-12 00:00:00

.• • "
the House at a time when there would be a. lull attend- he should state that he beieved it necessary rend should have that relief found for him at his own
ante of Members, and when it would be deliberately ;to reappoint this Commission. He would, with the per- i house, and the guardians were' subjected to a penalty of
considered. • mission of the House, state, in a few words, the opinion I 51. it they did not provide relief. The Right Ho-
_ ..
Mr: ROEBUCK said that he was most anxious to given by the Duke of Wellington in the House of I nourable Baronet then read the clause to this of-
_ . .
-9(1 of the administra- I feet. and which provided that employment should

consult the wishes of the House on the subject of the Lords. He said he disapprove,
motion. The appointment of the Committee would ne- tion which did not differ under circumstances.
cessarily be a difficult and an invidious task ; and he There were twelve hundred parishes in the country, all
would bring the matter before the House in any way differing in their character. It was impossible for Par-
they might think desirable. Perhaps the Noble Lord lament to frame any law that could apply to those which
would himself state the time at- which he wished the were so various in their character, and hence it had
motion should be submitted to the House. became absolutely necessary that such an appointment
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that he thought it would as a Central Board should be made, with the power to
he convenient that the Right Hon. Baronet opposite control the whole parishes in the land, and to
should state the time wheat he thought the House could adopt such remedies as would secure the same
properly entertain the question. administration of the power throughout the country.
Sir R. PEEL said that he had already stated that it He contended that the Commission was appointed, and
was his intention to move on Friday the adjournment was still necessary, for two objects—that it should secure
of the House until the Friday following. The Hon. and diversity of operation where the circumstances were diffe-
Learned Gentleman, the Member for Bath, would rent, and that it should prevent diversity of operation where
thus be limited either to this day, the day after, the circumstances were not different. Further he would say,
or to Friday in bringing forward his motion. For his that some such body was indispensably necessary, unless
part, he had no objection- that any day should be selected they then could show that, for all the various circumstances
by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman which would meet of this great community, one universal scheme of relief
the wishes of the House. The Right Hon. Baronet, after for the poor could be made applicable by the Legislature.
a short pause, said that he had given the Hon. and The principle of local administration was in conformity
Learned Member for Bath precedence on Friday. with the principle defined by law. One portion of the body
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE said, that when the Commit- was composed 'of persons chosen by the rate-payers ;
tee was moved for, he should propose the following the other of Magistrates appointed by the Crown,
runendment:—That each -Member should subscribe the and controlled by a central authority, emanating
following declarations:4 do solemnly declare that I from the Crown itself. That was the original
have never been guilty, by myself or my agents, scheme and plan of the enactment, and he saw
of any
.acts of bribery or corruption, for the purpose of nothing in the subsequent working of the mea-
procuring et seat in Parliament—that I have never paid, sure which led him to doubt of the wisdom, policy,
or promised to pay, any sum of money, beyond the legal and necessity of the principle of that enactment. On the
expenses of my last or previous election—(Laughter)— contrary, experience had demonstrated that the mea-
and that I have never been privy to, or assisted in, any sure was necessary ; and, believing it to be so,
corrupt practices for the purpose of returning any Mem- he most strenuously proposed to Parliament the continu-
ber to the House of Commons.—(Hear, and laughter.) ante of the Commission for the time he had mentioned.
Sir R. PEEL said that when he made the proposition They would allow him to ask, if they did away with this
that the Hon. and Learned Member for Bath should Commission, what were their intentions with respect
have precedence on Friday, he did not anticipate any to controlling the administration of relief ? If they went
discussion that would postpone the consideration of the back to the old system: they would find - a local board.
tariff., He was clearly of opinion that it was of great im- In the whole history of the-Poor-law they would not
portance that the Committee should be so constituted as find the local administration uncontrolled by authority.
to command general confidence. In his whole Parlia- From the time of Queen Elizabeth, down to the Act by
mentary career he never recollected an instance Which the great change had been introduced, the
when it was of more importance than at the pre- local Magistracy controlled the administration of re-
sent moment that such a course should be adopted. lief. If they went back to the old system, they
He hoped that some arrangement would be made, and it must necessarily change the boards of guardians.
was with that hope he gave up Friday next. But the Those were now partiy composed of rate-payers and
amendment of the Hon. Member opened a new field of partly of Magistrates, who were, ex officio, members of
discussion, and he would be likely to lose a whole day in the Board. If they restored them to their control they
reference to public business.—(Hear, hear.) must change the form of the Boards of Guardians,
Mr. DUNCOMBE said he only wished dial those who and they would thus go back step by step until they had
were to try the facts should go into the Court with clean returned to the system which the Act of 1834 had de-
hands.—(Hear, hear.) Whenever the Committee was Glared to be intolerable. - He had now stated enough
moved for, he would move his amendment.--(Cries of to show the grounds
to upon which
Commo thioought
" Yon cannot.") Lit necessary to adhere the Central ssn,
Mr. ROEBUCK said that if it were the desire of the He had already stated the opinion of Lord Brougham
House, lie would go on now.—(Cries of "Go on, go on.") with regard to the existence of the Commission, and he
Then, if the House were determined that he should go shoold now state that Noble Lord's opinion with respect
on, it must understand that the responsibility of any to the character of the persons of whom it ought
invidious discussion was not to rest on his shoulders. to be composed. He said, " However widely I
Mr. S. WORTLEY (amidst cries of " Order, order,") may differ from an individual on party subjects, yet if
said that it would lead to a very serious discussion if the individual be a man of firm mind, of extensive
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman were to go on now, experience as to the working of the Poor-law,
and would interfere with a very important measure, the if he be a man whom I can trust for his temper, one of
intention with regard to which it was desirable the the prime requisites in such a work, that man I shall
public should be acquainted with. • choose before any of those with whom I agree in politics."
Lord J. RUSSELL said that unless there was a That was the rule laid down by Lord Brougham.
general consent of the House he did not think the sub- And‘what had been the practice of Lord Grey's Go-
iect ought to be discussed on a different day..from that on vernment ? Why, they had selected parties
which it wah fixed to be brought on, and unless there to carry out the law from among their po-
was some reason to the contrary he 'thought that it lineal opponents.—(Hear.) They had selected Mr.
should be deferred till to-morrow or Friday. Frankland Lewis, whom they had placed at the
Mr. ROEBUCK was understood to say that Friday head of the Commission, and who was opposed to
would be the best day. them in politics. Again what was the course pur-
Mr. MACKINNON hoped that the discussion would sued by the present Government ? Since they had
bo postponed till Friday, for their arrangement as to the acceded to office, did they make their • selections
names of the Committee. solely from among their own supporters ? They did
Sir R. PEEL said, that there might be no delay in ap- not ; but they had adhered strictly to the rule laid
pointing the Committee, he should waive his right to down at the first formation of the Commis-
precedence on Friday. sion ; they had exercised their honest judgments
POOR-LAWS. with respect to the appointment of those
Sir J. GRAHAM rose to move for leave to bring in gentlemen whom they thought, upon the whole,
the Poor-law Continuance Bill. He said, since the to possess most of the requisites that were
commencement of the session, the attention of desirable ; they had exercised the patronage of
the House had been directed to various sub- the Crown, in conformity with those principles
jects, involving the interests of large classes which had been: laid down by their predecessors. They
of, the community, and in expressing opinions had already made an appointment which he believed the
on those topics much animosity and angry feeling House would consider unexceptionable.—(Hear, hear,
had been excited. But with respect to the hear.) He had thus endeavoured to show,
important subject which it was now his duty first, the necesssity of a Commission ; he had
to' bring under the consideration of the House, uext slightly touched on its composition ; and he certainly
though it involved the interests of a very numerous class did think that the Commission, as at present
of society, yet it was the class of the poor and needy, composed—composed of two gentlemen differ-
and destitute, and no angry passions need be excited in ing in opinion—was so formed as to command
the discussion to which he then invited them. On the con- the confidence of the House, and the approbation
trary, the subject appealed to the compassion, and kinder of the country. No difficulty, therefore, he hoped would
feelings, of every gentleman he addressed, and he hoped arise respecting the composition of the Commission.
the House would entertain it in the genuine spirit He should next pass on from the Commission itself to
of bharity, benevolence, and good-will. He need the question of the Asscatant -Commissioners, On the
not enter into a history of the Poor-laws ;it had first introduction of the measure, from the novelty of its
always been a distinguished boast of their policy that arrangements, it was thought necessary that nine Com-
throughout England and Wales the law had made pro- missioners should be appointed ; but, although nine was
visions for the poor and needy, and had taken precautions the number originally intended, it was found indis-
that none should perish of want, or that the sick, the . pensably necessary to add considerably to that number.
aged and infirm, should be deprived of proper care. He believed the number had amounted to somewhere
From an early period of the reign of Elizabeth up to near thirteen or fourteen, but that number had after-
within the last fifteen years, no material alteration had wards been reduced, and at the present moment there
taken place in the machinery for affording relief. There were only ten Assistant-Commissioners employed. It
had been an annual appointment by the .Magis- was his intention in the Bill which he asked leave to
trates of an overseer, to whom the care of introduce to adhere to the original limit, and to fix nine
the poor had been entrusted—the power of con- as the number of Assistant-Commissioners for England
trol over' those overseers being vested in the and Wales ; his view of the matter being that, with a
Magistrates. Until the year 1819 this machinery considerably enlarged experience of the Board of Guar-
had continued unaltered ;under that system the annual diens, the services of tbe Commissioners were not so ne-
sum required for the relief of the poor rapidly increased, eessary ; and that their visits might be less frequent, as-
and although the attention of the Legislature ha.] stinting rather the character of visits for special purposes
been frequently directed to the subject, little of ' than of visits in order to direct the general proceedings.
a remedial nature had been suggested—(Hear)— He would not on the present occasion dwell further upon
until the year 1819, when Mr. Sturges Bourne, whose the subject of the Commissioners or Assistant-Commis-
name he could not mention without offering a passing sioners ; and he would pass on to the next point, one of
tribute of respect to him, as a man who had made an considerable importance, namely, the power of the
effort to remedy a great public grievance, when, as he Central Commissioners to issue general orders. When
had said -Mr. Sturges Bourne introduced' a Bill vesting, the subject was last under discussion, he confessed
instead of in the hands of the overseers, in the hands of that he had a strong opinion that the original Act made
a select body appointed by the magistracy, the it necessary that general rules should be passed by the
power of granting relief. That power, however, Commons, subject to the veto of the Secretary of State,
was still continued under the control f the ma- by which the Crown had the power of reversing those
gistracy. That measure, however, had been only rules. He did think that, by passing special orders and
partly adopted, and some remedy was required not passing general rules, the spirit, if not the letter of
for the increasing evil. This increase in the charge for the original enactment had been obeyed. But he was
the maintenance of the poor was but a small portion of hound to say that, since he had had access to official in-
the evil. Coincident with that increase, there had arisen formation on the subject, he was of opinion that, until
a frightful system, utterly destructive of the independ- the unions throughout England were formed, it would be
ence of the labourer—(Hear, hear)—a system of impossible, with advantage, to issue general orders.
affording relief in aid of wages, by which the employer Since lie had succeeded to the office he now filled, it ap-
shifted the burden of paying the labourer to the shoulders peered to him and the Commissioners that the time had
of others who did not derive any profit from his labour. arrived when general orders as to Poor-law administra-
SO matters stood until 1831. In that year, by the Go • tion might be issued. It was his intention to lay on the
vernment of Lord Grey, a Commission was appointed spe- table of the House the Report of the Poor-law Commission
chilly to inquire into the subject of the relief of the poor ; for the presentyear, which contained several orders embrac-
and when he considered the abuses which were pointed ing all the topics on which general orders were necessary.
out in the Report of the Commission, he thought all If he obtained permission to introduce the Bill, that
gentlemen whom he had the honour of addressing measure would contain all the relief that was intended
would agree with him, when he stated that for the destitute. 'With respect to prohibitory orders,
he was not exaggerating the importance of various alterations had from time to time been made,
that Report in the least, that no public document and much error existed as to gritting out-door relief.
had ever exposed a system of more alarming evil, or In England and Wales, in the quarter ending March 31,
of greater abuse, than had been exposed in that Report.. 1842, 1,072,000 persons had received parish relief, and
At the time when it was presented, it commanded great oat of that number 513,860 were relieved out of the
attention, and a direct remedy for such evils threaten- workhouse, and only 159,000 were relieved in the work-
ing property and the peace of the country, was house. This might be attributed to the caution which
generally demanded. That Government, upon con- the Commissioners had shown in selecting the places
sidering the Report, did not hesitate to endeavour where the prohibitory order was to be enforced. A
to apply a remedy. They brought forward, painful case had just occurred in the Stourbridge Union,
on their responsibility as a Government, a mea- and which from temporary circumstances it was necessary
sure founded on that Report. After ample to suspend the order, and doing so had produced the
discussion, much debate, and full consideration, the best effects, as the temporary distress was removed, and
measure, with some modifications, was passed the labourers had now returned to their work. So far
into a law. That law was now upon our from the rule against out of door relief being inflexible,
statute-book ; that was the law which, at the pre- there were to the rule litself seven exceptions, in which
sent time, regulated the relief of the poor in England. the Board of Coiarditiris had the power of suspending it.
and Wales. With the exception of one portion of the The Board of Guardians had power of granting out-of-
statute, the enactments were of a permanent character. door relief, first, in all cases of urgent necessity ; se-
It was thought expedient at the time when that statute condly, in cases of sickness and accident ; thirdly, for
passed into a law to limit the duration of the Commission defraying the expenses of the burial of any person related
to the period of five years, and the end of the next to the person so receiving relief ; fourthly, to a widow
session, after the expiration of five years. Two years within the first six months of her widowhood ; fifthly, to
ago, a Bill was introduced_ by the then Government :t widow having any legitimate child ; sixthly, to the wife
for the prolongation of the term, which passed into and family of a person:confined in it:gaol or a lunatic asylum;
a law. Last year a similar course was pursued, and and seventh, to the wife and family of any person in the
the Commission was prolonged until the 31st of July I service of her Majesty, as a soldier or a sailor. The
in the present year, when its powers would expire. The Hon. Member for Finsbury had pointed out the confi-
first question, therefore, to which it was his duty to direct dence which lie had in' the 'local authorities. In those
the attention of the House was, the question whether it seven cases the local authorities had power to grant out-
would be expedient to prolong the duration of the Com- door relief, but the powers were not restricted to these
mission, and if it were expedient, for what length of seven cases, for even in cases not specified, there was an
time Now it was, upon mature reflection, the articleenabling the Board of Guardians to ffepart from
intention of her Majesty's servants to propose to the regulations of the prohibitory order if, within fifteen
the House that the Commission should be renewed days, they report to the Poor-law Commissioner the fact
for a period of five years, and also until the expiration of their having so departed from those regulations, and
of next Session of Parliament, after the expiration of the the reason for inducing them to do so. The Poor-law
five years.—(Cheers from both sides of the House.) That Commissioners, had, moreover, in certain of the menu-
was the time for which it was originally appointed, and no facturing districts, it: which they had not deemed it ex-
circumstances which had since intervened, had shaken pcdicnt to issue the prohibitory order, issued an out-of-
his belief in the slightest degree that the existence and door relief order, to enable the Board of Guar-
the full authority of that Commission was as requisite at diens to grant out-of-door relief, provided one-
the present time. as when the original measure first half of that relief was given in kind, and that no
became law.—(" Hear, hear," and ironical cheers able-bodied person should receive relief who was in the
from Mr. Wakley.) As the Hon. Member for Finsbury employment of any other person, and that such
cheered, perhaps he would allow him very shortly to person should be set to worts by the guardians out
state the reasons why he entertained that opinion. It of the workhouse, subject to the approval of the Com-
had been said that the professed object and intention of missioners, and under the superintendence of an officer,
the appointment of the Commission was to secure and that subject to a condition which he consi-
; uniformity in the mode of administering the law, dered indispensable— that a person receiving relief
He must be permitted to say that that was an entire should not be in the employment of any other indi-
, misrepresentation of the motives for which the Commis- vidual. The out-door labour test had been adopted by
sion had been formed. If the House would permit him— the Commissioners. He would now leave the question
tin. he could not so well express his views of the reasons of • general rules, and would proceed to state that after
which led to the original appointment of the Commission, the best consideration which her Majesty's Government
and which in his opinionpmP°ade its continuance neces- could give to the subject, they had come to the de-
, sary, he could not so well express those reasons as in the cision that it was expedient to abolish expressly
words of one who was then his colleague, and who, at and in terms, the Gilbert Unions.—(Hear, hear.)
t officer time this measure was introduced, was the first In a former discussion lie had stated to the House his
law of the Crown, the Lord Chancellor of Eng- own opinion that. the original Act abolished the Gilbert
land—if the House would give him leave he Unions ;he believed that taking the clauses together
_would read his opinion, which was remarkable that object was accomplished. But to prevent all mis-
for its perspicuity and accuracy. He (Sir takes upon the subject, he proposed to introduce a clause
James Graham) did not know if he held the same plainly and expressly abolishing these unions. On what
opinion now as the Noble Lord, but the reasons then grounds did he rest this proposal ? In the first place,
given for the appointment of this Commission lie (Sir he begged to state to the House that out of a community
J. Graham) confessed were good reasons for the re-ap- of sixteen million persons there were now under the
C mission now. The N - -oration of the Gilbert Unions a number of persons not

be given within five miles of the labLuier's residence.
Now let it be observed that it must be near the place of
residence—the pauper was not to receive distant work,
nor was he to change his residence to obtain employ-
ment five miles off. Instead of the man going to the
employment; the employment must come to him. If the
employer moved to six miles off, the guardians were
obliged to see that he provided for the labourer a suit-
able residence within the lawful distance of the place of
employment ; and there was also a clause by which it
was provided that, tinder certain circumstances, the
guardians might agree with the employer, that the
parish should pay one-half of the wages and the employer
the ether half. There was nothing in the Act
to prevent the guardian and the manufacturer being the
same person ; there was nothing to prevent him, as
guardian, making a bargain on the part of the parish
with himself as the employer. The rule under the Act
was to give in-door relief to the aged and impotent, and
out door relief to the able-bodied poor. The rule of the
new law was, to give to the old and impotent, that is to
aged persons of sixty years and upwards, relief out of
the workhouse, and to apply the test of the workhouse
to the able-bodied.—(Hear, hear.) He would only say
further, that it was the intention of the Government to
propOse the repeal of the Gilbert Act, and to leave it to
the House to say which principle was the best. As to
the Local Acts it was not intended to alter the present
law. It had been decided by the Court of Queen's
Bench that the law is that when a governing body
is constituted under a Local Act, the Commissioners
under the new law cannot interfere with the body except
only as to the mode of administering relief ; in which
respect, tke Commissioners have the same power, as the
law now stands, as they have in any other parish. So
competent were they under the present law, that it was
not the intention of the Government to interfere with
the choice of the governing body under the laical Acts,
but at the same time to exercise a complete control over
the mode of administering relief. It was, however, in-
tended to limit the power of adding to the goveining
body under Local Acts, as it was liable to great abuses.
One of the most importait clauses which he intended to
introduce into the Bill, was one which had been fully
discussed in the,last session of Parliament, and related
to the important question of education. He had the ad-
vantage in bringing in the Bill in the present session of
having ascertained what was the opinion of the House upon
this point in the last Parliament. It was their intention
to propose a clause for the purpose of liiniting the appli-
cation of the power of the Commission in large districts.
They proposed that there should be a maximum distance
of 15 miles from the further point of one union to an-
other. For the appointment of this school a majority of
the board would be necessary. This limitation would
comprise the Metropolitan districts, and in the neigh-
bourhood of Manchester, and four or five miles round the
principal manufuctuting and commercial towns in Eng-
land the limitation would also operate. He had been in-
duced to make this limitation for various reasons, first of all
that the limitation would enable the experiment to thrive -
in the most densely populated places. In the first Bill
the provision for the education of the poor gave
great dissatisaction, on account of the children
being removed twenty or thirty miles from their pa-
rents or natural guardians ; but narrowing the li-
mitation would place it in the power of the
children's relatives, on Sundays or holidays, tovisit their
children at the establishments, tbuS giving them the
pleasure and advantage of more or less superintending
them. At the same time, in adding this provision, they
intended to act up to the recommendation made in the
last session of Parliament, which he hoped the House
would consider salutary—viz., that of introducing the
mode adopted at the school at Norwood in schools of
this description. These schools when established would
be subject to the control of the Central Committee of
Education, and they, would be inspected by the Com-
mittee on Education, and the ComMittee would have the
power of calling for any information respecting them
they might require. He thought that that would be a
prudent advance in the education of the poor. He
thought that nothing could be more conducive to the fu-
ture advantage in life of the poor than a system of
sound education, conducted under such superintendence
as he had mentioned. With respect to the casual
poor, he proposed that the relief given to them should
be charged on the funds of the union. He had next to
state to the House the provision which was intended to
meet objections that had been frequently urged against
the existing law. It was applicable especially to unions
in the north of England, which were of large size. It
had been felt, and rightly. so, as a grievance that where a
family applied for relief, before the case was decided on,
the head of the family should
.go before the Board
of Guardians, and where the. Board assembled
at the extremity of the Union the necessity of the
attending there on the part of the head of the family
lost to him a day's work. It was proposed, then, that
power should be given to the Board of Guardians where
any parish union should be distant more than --
miles (the blank to be filled up in Committee) from the
place of meeting of the Board of Guardians, to appoint
a local committee to receive applications and report on
the cases. He had proposed also one other alteration in
the existing law. It appeared to him on the whole very
desirable not to encumber the Bill with any interference
with the law of settlement ; and he was satisfied that
that law would upon its own merits command the most
serious consideration of the Legislature. Bat he did
not think it would he expedient in the Bill he asked
leave to introduce to raise that important question. At
the same time there was one case, of such crying hard-
ship that although it•was connected with the law of
settlement, its urgency had induced her Majesty's
Ministers to endeavour to apply to it an immediate
remedy ; he alluded to the case isf those who being re-
sident in a parish or a union without a settlement, but
to which they had for years given the bentffit
of their industry .to the advantage of the in-
habitants and the ratepayers of that union,
but who still, under the pressure of sickness, were denied
any relief except on the condition that,* if they received
a shilling, they and their families should be removed.
He had reason to know that at this very moment, under
the threat of an immediate removal, in districts where
very great • distress prevailed, parties who were out of
work, not having any settlement, were debarred from any
relief whatever, from the fear that if they applied for
relief the application would lead to their subsequent re-
moval and consequent ruin. He did not propose to go
the whole length, upon that occasion, of dealing with
such cases of destitution, bat he did propose that in cases
of sickness, persons becoming chargeable were to be re-
lieved where they were resident, and should not be re-
moved, or should not be liable to removal, until they had
been chargeable for forty days upon the Union.—(Hear.)
Those were the principal provisions of the Bill he asked
leave to introduce, with one farther addition. He pro.:
posed to make one other material alteration with respect
to the law of bastardy. On the passing of the Poor-law
Amendment Act through the other House of Parliament a
clause was introduced which gave the power of appeal
before the Quarter Sessions, and the Quarter Sessions
only. That remedy was found very soon to be inopera-
tive, and the further remedy was given of an application,
not to the Quarter Sessions, but to the Pettit Sessions.
But still no sufficient remedy was given against fugitive
parties. It constantly happened that the sons of wealthy
yeomen, or independent labourers, allowewdertheeisrucplpdoldrtreedn
hsec:nweshtafrae theyrmtTs who had a family
to
fy gotthbeeii
their
tooonwt tnrhi
bet
no
tri
tOoarni
ofe
u
there was no remedy in such cases. He thought in a
moral point of view, and in an equitable point of view,
he was bound to go to this extent, that where there was
a return of nullu bone there should be a power of impri-
soning the father for three months. This certainly in-
volved a most important principle, it was a de-
cided change, but upon the best deliberation lie
could give to the subject, it was the best he
could adopt. There was another circumstance of
flo(N)tein ngior of
e
equality.
great importance to which he wished to advert, and that
Was with respec
INttoitb esthrpeeleeeet to that,
he
eie
prßopotiorsded
to of
Guardians. Now',
place the
Is; e
p
e r sr
proposed
eo occupiers ct pa ite
nr so
personon the sameshould
have
than four proxies. He declared to the House most sin-
cerely that nothing should have induced him to be
responsible for a Bill of this description, if, in his con-
science and judgment, he was not convinced that the
measure would be found to be conducive to the comforts
of the sick, the aged, and the infirm. lie would say
more, he believed it would be equally conducive to the
independence and welfare of the working classes. That
was his sincere and most decided opinion, and he hoped
that in the discussion that might take place, the greatest
temper and discretion would be shown. The Right
Hon. Baronet concluded by moving for leave to bring
in the Bill.
Mr. DUNCOMBE said he did not rise to offer the
slightest opposition to the measure, but merely to ex- 1
Press his sincere regret at the statements he had heard
from the Right Hon.. Baronet. It was with extreme re-
gret he had heard that the Right Hon. Baronet intended
to continue for six years—(" Five, five")—for five years
and a Session of Parliament, which made it almost six—
a measure that was so offensive and obnoxious to the
public at large. He did not wish to go hack to the old
system, and the control of Magistrates, but he wished
to have the Board of Guardians properly elected, and to
give them a full discretionary power. From the Govern-
ment having refused inquiry into the Gilbert Corporations.
it was supposed it was their inten thin to suppress them. He
was sorry to find that such was the intention ; and with
regard to that suppression, he should feel it his duty to
offer it every opposition, and throw every impediment in
its way that the forms of the House would allow him. It
would be a gross breach of faith towards these Corpora-
tions to abolish them without obtaining the consent of
two-thirds of the Board of Guardians, according to Act
of Parliament,
Mr. LIDDELL asked the Right Hon. Baronet whether
the Local Committee, appointed by the clause to which'
he referred, was for general or for limited and special
purposes ?
Sir J. GRAHAM waa understood to reply, that the
Committee would be appointed to hear cases, and make
a repOrt of theni to the Board of Guardians.
Mr. WAKLEY said lie had often found that there

pointment of the Corn, .oble Lord then
said, " one part of the country requires one mode of treat-
ment, and another the application of a different mode. The
agricultural districts require very different treatment to
that employed hi the manufacturing and commercial
.neighbourhoods." The circumstances of an agricultural
parish being different from Another, rendered one course
inapplicable to both. Now, if it was necessary to have dif-
,ferent modes applied to various cases, it must be
.presumed that a discretionary power should be lodged
somewhere. That hand which possessed this power,
felt its way. and formed its course according to the
obstacles which might come. This was his opinion why
this discretionary power should be given, which was
`also given in the graphic description of the Com-
mission given in the speech from which he had
quoted, and it was for these reasons and others

ope;
exceeding 155,000, and the inconvenience arising from
the scattered locality of these unions had increased in
a great degree. But besides this he must state to
the House his deliberate conviction that the Gilbert
Act, and the Poor-law Amendment Act, stood upon two
opposite principles which could not co-exist. He knew
that some persons said, " Gilbertize all the unions ; abo-
lish your present law, and make the Gilbert Act univer-
sal in its operation."--(Cheers from Mr. Wakley.) It
would be for the House to decide which principle it
would adopt, but it might be proved to demonstration
that the two principles werl/4.! diametrically opposed to
each other, and were so decidedly at variance, that the
Legislature must choose between them What was the
principle of the Gilbert Union ? The principle of the
Gilbert Union rya', that every able-bodied man seeking

was no agreement between the clauses of Bills brought
into that House, and the kind and merciful tone of the
speech that introduced them. The Right Hon. Baronet
had expressed himself in a most benevolent manner to-
war& the poor, and had expressed his conviction that if
the measure were carried into effect, it would prove a
benefit to the poorer classes throughout the 'kingdom.
He had always objected to the principle of the Poor-law
Amendment Act, and no alternative in the details of the
measure could ever reconcile him to the principle.—
(Cheers.) The principle of the Bill was to take
from the rate-payers the management of their
own funds, and to transfer that management to
the Board ut Somerset House, making that Board
the scape-goat for all the cruelties practised in the ma-
nagement of the poor throughout EVand. It was -not