The Sun.
London, England, 1842-03-04 00:00:00

THE' SUN, LONDON, FRIDAY MORNING, MARCH 4, 1842.

no attention could be paid to it, and that the law
with the utmost rgour should take its course.—(Cheers;
from the Ministerial benches.) With respect to the
other individual, the Government thought it right to ad-
mit him in evidence, bearing in mind 'the great
importance there existed to succeed in a convic-
tion of the principal offender, and bearing in
mind the great 'importance to obtain as far as possible
the most minute information respecting the matter. I
am fully prepared to defend the conduct of the Government
(Cheers)—although I am not diposed to think that any
person acquainted with the circumstances of the case
will be at all diSposed to-question that conduct.—(Hear.)
It so happened also that the individual, after the other
application had been refused, himself applied. • The in-
dividual, after the other party had been admitted as evi-
dence, after having retained counsel, and given informa-
tionwith respect to the signing of the bills, thought proper to
plead guilty ; and there have been complaints that through
that plea of grtilty—tri which the Government, though
they have been accused of it, were. I am sure, in no degree
accessory—the public have been deprived of that develop-
ment of the whole circumstances which would have been
made. Having convicted the offender, another important
duty remained to be performed, naively, to re -esablisli
the credit which had been so greatly shaken. To effect
this no other means could be adopted than the difficult
and laborious one of calling in the Exchequer bills, ex-
amining them Separately in the office from which they
:tad been issued, stamping them with a mark
to denote their genuineness. and then re-issuing them to
the public. And here I should be guilty of thegreateet
injustice if I did not pay a tribute to the assiduity
and zeal of the Comptroller of the Exchequer,
who, being called upon to perform a duty in some
degree foreign. to the office which he. held, devoted his
whole time for a very considerable period to thepersonal
superintendence of the necessary arrangements. To
his exertions on that occasion the public were in-
debted for the short time which elapsed be-
tween the presentation of the bills at the Exchequer
and their re-issue to the public, and, therefore, to their
not being exposed for a longer time to the inconvenience
which must result from the withdrawal- of so large a
mass of securities from the public service.—'(Hear, hear.)
Having provided for this necessity, the Government
proceeded to a task which was obviously necessary,
namely, to institute an inquiry as to what were the re-
gulations of the office from which these Bills were
issued, vvith a view to • recommending such alterations
as might be necessary to prevent the occurrence of
similar evils in future. For that purpose they selected
individuals, of whom I need not say that as they are
most distinguished for their ability; so they stand most
high in character, as upright and honourable men—men
who are neither likely on the one hand to be influ-
enced by popular prejudice, nor on the other to pay
any deference to any wish which might be felt
in any quarter to veil whatever might have been
amiss, or to keep it back from public observation.
To these gentlemen I cannot suffieiently • express my
obligations for having, at great inconvenience to them-
selves, undertaken a public duty of a laborious and irksome
character,andhaving devoted so much of their time,l trust
it will be admitted with benefit to the public. Now,
Sir, I do not mean at the present moment to enter into the
question of the Report. Hon. Gentlemen are fully aware
of its contents, and a time will come when I
shall have to submit to the House regulations necessary
for hereafter" 'establishing the whole question arising
upon that Report, and, when it will properly come under
the consideration of Parliament. I may here how-
ever remark, its an answer to those who thought
the Government desired concealment of what took
place in the office of the' Exchequer and the Treasury,
and who taxed us With having admitted one of
the pal ties as Queen's evidence, and induced
Smith to plead guilty, with a view to screen the
Government, there could not be a stronger proof
of its fallacy, than the investigations of those gentlemen
who had submitted the result of their labours to the
House. The Government had the power to act—
the Goveroment acted as
.'I think the House will
act when the circumstances are before it. But
Sir, there is something more required, in -this case, as
it appears to mei than the mere examination of official
persons. It must be obvious, that in order to the
completion of the crime, the details of which I
have given to the House, there must have been
two circumstances. One was a want of caution
on the part of that department of the State—a want of
caution I admit which has been shown for many years
past. But, Sir, for 150 years no offence whateverhas been
committed of a similar character. Nor had any thing
occurred which could lead to a suspicion that Exchequer
bills had been forged—and something more was ne-
cessary than a breath of confidence on the part of
the individual in office, or want of strength in the
official regulations, to tempt an individual to this offence.
I say, Sir, and I say it advisedly, that this offence could
not have keen committed in the midst of the in-
telligent community which inhabits the metropolis
Without the person being in communication with some
persons, I will not say who were conscious of the guilt,
but I will say who must have had some knowledge of the
transaction going on, and whose duty it was to have
given information. Why, Sir, we gave the result of the
first detection of the offence. No sooner were
the proceedings taken against the individual Smith, than
I received from various quarters details of suspicious cir-
cumstances that had occurred. I understood from one
gentleman that be had been offered Exchequer bills for a
loan, but he. rejected them, as they were suspicious, and
this gentlemen gave me to understand that the same par-
ties had a quantity of Exchequer bills—these individually
devoid of character—that were all ready for signature.
These are circumstances, on the part o" the
public, which require to be inquired into, • that
we may properly understand the real nature
of the subject. It is, therefore, with this view that I
shall call upon Parliament to institute a specific inquiry
—(Cheers)—not to be conducted by a Committee of
this House—(Hear)—or by a mere Commisionappointed
by the Crown ; but, Sir, by a Commission appointed by
Parliament to investigate the real nature of these several
transactions ; to see how business was transacted by
these several persons ; to know whether they
were men of such suspicious characters that
honest men would hardly be connected with them ;
whether for the money advanced on the bills they received
in return an interest. beyond the market rate.—(Hear,
hear.) These and a variety of other circumstances
require to be rigidly and strictly investigated before the
House can. be called on to come to any final decision
on the question ; nay, before we can be called on
to understand the nature of the case with which we
have to deal.—(Hear, hear.) Sir, an inquiry of •
this kind . requires the highest moral consideration ; it
is essential that the . public of the country should
know how business is conducted. It is quite right
they should knew it, because if we believe that the per-
sons at the head of this 'office were well ac-
quainted with the duties they had to perform,
and exercised Care and attention in their several
occupations, and that these practices sell occurred, a
different set of regulations will be necessary. Sir,
there is perhaps another circumstance to which I
ought to advert, which has been pressed on
me by many gentlemen in a variety of ways. I
allude to , claims for compensation. To the claims so
brought before me, I have, as I conceived it my duty
to do, given the most decided refusal. The granting
of claims for compensation, in a case of this kind, is
to take away feoni the public the greatest security they
have against the repetition of such offences, and
is to do. ail in your power to render such
practices .of more frequent occurrence. Sir, if I
were once to give my opinion that a man takine
these bids were to be compensated for any loss.
he might undergo, what could I do more, to re-
mwe all blame from him ; or what could I do
more effectual to encourage a criminal individual
to seduce , a public servant, being sure that the
termination of the affair must be that he
should receive, any money that he had expended ?
I, therefore, Sir, have chosen to give the least-encourage-
ment to propositions of this kind, and I do most decidedly
advise the House and Parliament to weigh wellnll the
considerations of this case, before they are led away '
by any statements of party or individual hardship, •
or individual suffering, before they yield to claims of
this nature. . Sir, it appears to me, I confess, before the
House car. enter on a question of the sort, that they must
satisi'y themselves that ti-ese is some distinction to be
drawn between the law as L applies to forgery on indi-
viduals, and also to forgery on the public—that they must
make up, their minds to this, that it is not expedient
to give to the holder of a forged instrument a remedy
against the p. rty issuing it. I do not mean to say
that there may not be instances wherein the House
should forego this; rule, but I advise them to resist
any encouragement to parties, be they who they may,
that their claims will be satisfied before the whole nature •
of the transaction be brought to light.—(dear, hear.)-
For, Sir, if it should appear that these crimes have
been committed by means of putting confidence in suspie
cions individuals—nay, in individuals more than suspi-
cions, whose conduct in previous transactions had
given a taint to them ; and if it should fur-
ther appear th-at there was a species of sc-
cresy enjoined when these bills were deposited
as security that . was not usual ; if it should ap-
pear that the intereA demanded was greater than
under similar circumstances Would be demanded
upon fair and hoaourable transactions ; if it should ap-
pear that when a bill escapel from what I shall call the
imprisonment in which it was put, that a premium
was offered to got hold of that particular bill
—if I say all these circumstances'should-be the result of
inquiry, I think, until those points are made clear,
that the Howie and the Government should ab-
stain from holding out the slightest expecta-
tion to any parties, that they are called upon
to prevent aaopool • of the .ordinary courac.
With these views, th,refore,, I shall conclude by proposing
to Parliatnen thatt. thtv 'should appoint a COmniis;:.-ion for
the puree o; inquiring as to the receipt, eke elation, and
pos3ess-ton of certiiii lorged Exchequer Bills.--(Hear.)
An Honouralde Gentleman opposite
.has given notice
of a motion as an anentinerat to the one which I propos,-2.
for that pur ref.:rring this matter to a Selectpoie,
Committee. I presume that the Honourable Gentlernae'a
motion is, like IY.1:11e, fbr the parpoK,, of obtain:ng
knowledge of evciything that has taken place.
I prefer the motion I shall submit to the Ilons:
to that of the Honourable Gentleman, and I trust
that the Honourable 31emb:v will give me .credit
not wishing; to throw army obstacle in the Way of this
measure. I think that the coarse which I mean to pur-
sue is by_ far the lLtter one. By appointing
Commissioriers they will have the power of seppointing
parties,.- who constitute in themselves high legal
authority ; they will not be liable to be influenced by
any consideration relative
,to constituency- ; and
they swill he best qualified to investigate th.)
real circumstances of the case. They will have
theAlec;po,ver t 0... make 'the most searching
inqu;r
Y into all the points of the case, to
wrehpiotl;l4e'-ae' 1111c-ixeufledt ;. and I, - enifidently- trust heir
unknown to either ---ithaLther:will,..kenci, point
Parliament a id Government will therefore in a situa-
nwat or the country -LEX

tion to judge what is the course which be
will be most
advisable for them to pursue, and which
conducive to the prevention of a similar crime, and the
preservation of the public credit.—(Hear.)
Mr. KEMBLE said that having been requested at the
coinuitenceinent of the Session, by the holders of Ex-
chequer bills, to present a petition to the House on
their behalf; and having found by the rules
of the House that it was impossible that
he could present that petition without the recom-
mendation of Government, he had waited most
anxiously till the Right._ Hon. Gentleman had made his
statement. . With the greater part of what the '
Right Hon, Gentleman had said he (Mr. K.) fully con-
curred. That the subject was one of great importance
there could be no doubt, and he should not have
risen: to make any observations had it not been
for something like a reflection which had been cast by the
Chancellor of the Exchequer upon the holders of those
Bills. He (Mr. K.) would venture to say on their behalf
that someof the holders of these Exchequer bills would be
found among the most respectable and honourable men
that this great metropolis could produce ; and he, only
hoped the House would suspend their opinion
on the transaction under discussion till that full
inquiry which the Right Honourable Gentlemen pro-
posed had taken place. He (Mr. had been-made ac-
quainted with the circumstances attending that transaction,
but it would be unjust to the parties themselves to enter
further into the discussion of them at present. He
could only say if the Right Hon. Gentleman gave the
consent of the Government to having that petition to
which he alluded presented, it would be seen that the
course intended to be pursued by the Right Honour-
able . Gentleman was just such a one as the holders
of those bills would require. He was not at
liberty exactly to read the prayer of the pe-
tition, but he might be allowed to read what
was the conclusion of that petition. From it the
House would see that the holders of the bills in
question demanded nothing more than a strict and rigid
inquiry into this affair—an inquiry which was due
both to themselves and to the public at large.
The petitioners went on to say, each for himself, that
their conduct in the receipt of those Exchequer bills, and
the advances they had made on their security, hedbeen an
honest bona fide proceeding, perfectly regular, and in
the ordinary course of business ; and therefore
they solicited from that Hon. House, through such,
means as its wisdom might suggest, a most
scrupulous and effective investigation into - ail the
circumstances of the case, so far as they
were concerned and they were willing to
state all they knew about it on oath, and to
produce all books, papers, and writings, connected
with it in their possession ; for they made this appeal to
the Hon. House confident that the result would fully
satisfy the House that the conduct of the petitioners in
the receipt of such bills, had been honourable, regular,
and unexceptionable in every respect.—(Hear, hear.)
He (Mr. K.) confichntly believed that the gentlemen
who signed that petition had nothing to keep in the
back ground.—(Hear, hear.) They desired and expected
a rigid examinati..7n4 such in fact as the Chancellor of
the Exchequer proposed.—(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. K.)
would not now enter into details as the House was not
in possession of materials for discussion ; he would
content himself with merely remarking that the
speech of the Right Honourable-Gentleman showed that
an inquiry was demanded. not only for the sake
of the public, but that it would be unjust to the
holders of -the bills if it were refused ; con-
sidering, moreover that those frauds had been
committed by persons_ in the employment of the Go-
, vernthent. He had now but to notice the amount
of interest charged on those Bills. • It would
appear that the interest charged by the lenders
was no more than. according to the money
rate at the time the advance was made ; and he
would remind the House, that the great corpora-
tion of the Bank of England, four times a year,
advertised to lend money, for a limited pes
period, at five per cent. on Exchequer
bills. The petitioners should not be blamed for doing
what the Bank of England did ; and if they had in any
instance taken higher interest than five per cent., he
would remind the House that they had one
so under the sanction of the Legislature, which had re-'
laxed the usury laws for the benefit of trade.—(Cheers.) ,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER assured
the House, in explanation, that the condemnatory re-
masks he had made referred to certain persons of whom
he had received information ; but he never meant
that a whole body of merchants were guilty of
participating in the fraud.—(Neer, hear.) He should be
very sorry if such an imputation should be attributed to
him when he meant quite otherwise.— (Hear.)
Mr. LEADER letzi one or two observations to make
on what had been said by the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer and the lion. Gentleman. The Right Hon. Gen,
tleman forgot that there were two questions of careless-
ness, ore on the part of the holders of the Exchequer
bills, another on the part of the Exchequer bill-office.
He would admit to the Hon. Member for Surrey, that
many such as he represented had claims for compensa-
tion ; but he (Mr. L.) had the authority of a banker, a
Member of that House, for stating that, long before the
discovery of the fraud took place, tjtere had been rumours
in the City that something was wrong in the Exchequer
bills. He had told him (Mr. Leader) that he himself
had had a narrow escape, and he had also authorised
him to state the circumstances, but requested that him
name might not be mentioned. As that Gentleman was
a Member of that House, he could contradict him
(Mr. Leader) if he stated anything incorrectly.—(Great
laughter.) That Gentleman had stated to him (Mr Leader)
that shortly before the discovery that the Exchequer
bill fraud had taken place, a person had come to him and
said that be wanted a loan of 60,0001., or any pert of
60,0061. on a deposit of Exchequer bills. Excheque r
bills were, at. that time, at a premium of
from 12s. to 15s. The person wanting that loan
offered six per cent. interest for the money—money
at the time being easily procured on good security,
such as Exchequer Bills for four per cent. The
banker having considered that subject, thought there
was something about the transaction that.he did not like,
and told the person on making the application that if he
was in want of money he had better sell the bills
than borrow money on-them at such a rate of interest.
The same person, on the reference of. the banker, after-
wards went to one of the greatest capitalists in Londen,
and made the same proposal ; the answer of the capi-
talist was the same as that of the banker had been :
"You cannot afford to give such an amount of
interest; if you want money so very badly as you repre-
sent yourself to do, you had much better sell the bills."
Now, he (Mr. Leader thought, that when persons hold-
ing forged Exchequer bills could be proved to
have received them under . such circumstances,
they could have no claim whatever for compensation—
(Hear, hear, hear)—for whatever might have been
the amount of carelessness of parties connected
with the Exchequer Bill -office, they could not excuse the
gross carelessness of parties receiving Exchequer bills
under such circumstances. And while the Chancellor of
the Exchequer had been properly severe on those who had
taken Exchequer bills under suspicious circumstances,
the Right Hon. Gentleman had not been sufficiently se,
vere on the ca,:elessnees exhibited at the Exchequer Bil!-
office. He (Mr. Leader) thought that from the docu-
ments before the House,- from the letter of the Comp-
troller-General, and likewise from the Report of
the Commissioners, it appeared that the country-
had a very fair subject of complaint against the
Exchequer Bill-office.-- (Hear, hear, hear) Ile
wished to ask the Chancellor of the Excheqta r
if the statement which he (Mr. Leader) was
agent -to make, was correct or not.—(Hear.) Ile (Mr.
Leader) had been informed that at the time when
the Exchequer Bill-office was remodelled, a
person acquainted with that department
had called the attention of the persons in
authority to the fact that Mr. ,Beaumont, Smith
. was possessed of great power, and that there was no
check whatever upon him, his being the only depart-
ment in the office cn which there was no check. That
representation had been made to the persons in authority!
He believed that the present Comptroller-General was at
the time Chancellor of the Exchequer.—(No, no.)
At any rate, the representation had been
made at the time the Comptroller-General was
connected with the Treasury, and it was certain that
that recommendation had not been attended to, because
they knew that Mr. Beaumont Smith had retained
that power, which he had so monstrously abused.
It was not necessary for him to allude to other
marks of carelessness in that office, for these
would no doubt come under the attention of
the Commission. But he had only wished to call the
attention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer
to the circumstance which lie had mentioned ; because
a feeling had gone abroad ~that there was
so 'much carelessness in the Exchequer, that
those persons who had advanced money on fair interest
upon those bills were entitled to compensation. He un,
'derstood that the stamped paper was -under the unchecked
control of the same person (B. Smith), whereas in
the Bank of England, the,epaper which was
to be used for notes, was-“guarded as care
fully, as it was after it had received the signatures.
Mr. BLEWITT was understood' to say, that as the
House seemed to acquiesce in the course proposed by the,
Right H ~
Hon. Gentleman the _Chancellor of the
Exchequer, he would not oppOseqt. But on looking
over the Report which he held' in his hand, he
was not sure that it was quite cleapthat any forgery had
been committed. For it appeared.. to him that Mr.
Beaumont Smith had every opportunity of getting the
signatures, without having recourse to tbrgery.--(llear,
hear.) With that exception, he coetrerred in the motion.
Sir R. INGLIS concurred wii6- 'the Hen. Gentleman
who had just, addressed the ...House, that the
motion before the House begged the question,
which ought principally to be tlitt, object of inquiry:—
that. was whether, the bills were or were not forged.
He should not have troubled the House, but that
his Right Honourable Friend in some war
prejudiced, the case of those who were
bone fide holders.—(Hear, hear'.)' He came into the
House without having made up his mind, and deter-
mined to reserve his judgment until he .should Intro learnt
what course the Government meant to take. :But his
Right Hon. Friend had drawn au analogy, which he (Si;
R. Inglis) could not agree to, although it had received
the sanction of a ;lig:llegal authority. It was that the
holders of tilese had no more-right to compensation
than the holders of ,or' ed'dank notes. The Right Hon.
Gentleman would not deny that the; bills whit:* formed
the subject of his motion issued fsom a Government de-
partment. Whether they issued :rout the left hand door
or from the right hand door e'd not, matter mulch, but
that they issued from a Government department was un-
questionable, and the distinction in the point of analogy
between a note of the Bank of England and one • of those
bills 'was, that in the latter case the um aided bill had
been previously issued from a Gove..amens departme tits—
(Cries of "No.") He Understood these bills wera.perfected
by the Government. in every respect, except is the sig-
nature of the Comptroller-General ; that I._:e,paper NIT.*
.Giivernment paper *; that the seal ryas the GovernmeLt
seal ; and that the officer who 'i-shed it was a Go-

.vernment officer.—(Cries of " No, no.") But that would
be a matter of inquiry.—(Hear, hear, aad a laugh.)
His argument proceeded on the assumption that with
the single exception of the' signature the bills in every
other respect belonged to the Government, and that
whether they issued from the office of the Exchequer-or
the Exchequer Bill-office, in either case the bills, the
subject of this motion, were bona fide issued from a
Government department, and that being the case he
thought his Right Hon. Friend prejudiced the case by
drawing an analogy between the holder of a note and
the holder of one of these bills. He thought, until he
was contradicted, that the Exchequer bills,. whether
issued fraudulently and by night, or honestly and in the
open face of clay, had issued from a Government depart-
ment, and that being so that they were still bona fide.
With that observation he would not interpose any other
delay.
Mr. F. T. BARING said he would trouble the House
with a few wirds, and he could not but express his con-
. _ _

eurrenee with
tleman opposi
quiry, and sift
vestigation.
him as to the r
(Hear, hear.)',
that it was iM

whit had fallen frOm the Right Hon. Gen-
e as to the propriety of Instituting an in-
ing the subject by a free and complete in-
:Hear, hear.) He fully concurred with
tecessity of a Commission of Inquiry.,-
L. The Right Hon. Gentleman had. stated,
DosSible for a Government not to be sub-

jact to suspici
be impossible
the subject, w
screened if an;
that House.

but whether they were or not, it would
to disabuse the minds of the public upon
o believed that certain parties would be
inquiry were not instituted by Members of
He need not add a single word more, ex-

cept as to an
Westminster.

observation made by the Member for
He had stated that a communication was

made to the

.asury at the.time the arrangement of the

Exchequer w
Smith, and tl
was one of the

made, with respect to M. Beaumont
le power he possessed. He (Mr. Baring)
commission for conducting that business ;

but after the ill passed, most, he might say the whole,
of the carryi g the 'Bill into effect devolved upon him,
he being the' ' Secretary of - the Treasury. and this-was
the first time e had had the slightest intimation of tli.:l
kind. He m ght add, that it was not till he saw in the
newspapers e intelligence that the Government was
taking propeg measures for pursuing the inquiry, that a
hint of the kind had reached him as to the fraud that
had been carrying on. 'With regard to Mr. Beaumont
Smith, and the arrangement made for the selection of the
officers, it should be stated that no recommendation for
any officer, from the Chief Clerk of•the Exchequer down
to the lowest in the office;-Was ever attended to, unless it
came from ti heads of ' the department, and every, en-
deavour was made, by inquiries into their character,
to select the est officers. No appliCation or recommend-
ation was ev r attended to exce.pt.those from the proper
department nd the heads of the office. Unfortunately
this was an instance proving that the greatest care
did not alwais secure a good public servant, for if there
was any teptimony of character in favour of one
person more strong than another, it was in favour of Mr.
Beaumont Sinith. He believed he - should do better in
following th course of the Right Hon. Gentleman and
not go into my discussion as to whether, as had been re-
marked by the Hon. Member fur the UniVerSity of Ox-
ford, the E. ' h.Nuer bills came out of one door or an-
other. The would see the expediency of waiting, till
they were it possession of the whole facts of the case.
He entirely neurred in the course taken by the Right
lion. Gentk4nan.

Mr. LEAOEB in' explanation, said that with respect
to the necessity of additional checks in Mr. Beaumont
Smith's department, the evidence giveri beforc the Com-
missioners proved that there was no check over him; and
that the GovernMent might have had additional checks
if they like
Colonel BTHORP approved of the motion of the.
Right Hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
which he hciped would elicit the truth upon the impor-
tant, questiori under the consideration of the House.. As
the night Hon Gentleman had made such a motion-he
(Colonel Sibthorp) could riot support the propesal ofthe
Hon. Member for London as he should otherwise have
done. (The Hon. and Gallant Member then proCeeded
to read several documents, for the purpose of shoWing
that Lord Monteagte . had discharged his duties as.
Comptroller of the Exchequer with great carelessness.)
He trusted that, in the investigation which was to take
place, there, would be the strictest impartiality, that,
when the result was made known, the public might see—
he
.would not say who was the greater rogue—but who
was behind the eurtain.—(llear, hear.) Me would, when
the result of that investigation ri as submitted to the
House, closOy and minutely weigh every circumstance,
andexpress his opinion on the ,subject. _

Mr. RICARDb expressed a hope that there would be
no unnecessary delay in bringing in the Bill.
• Mr. WAKLEY said as he had not been in the House.
when the Right Hon.: Gentleman introduced the discus-.
sion, he would be glad to know whether the Commission
was to extend its' inquiry into all the circumstances un-
der which the'bills were issued, or Whether it was to
extend it me7ely to the manner in which the holders be-
came possessed Of them. _lf the inquiry was to be re-
stricted to -the last point, he did not believe that the pub-
lic would be satisfied.—(Hear, hear.) His own opinion
was that the people:of this country were quite willing
that Parliament should vote remuneration to the bonu
fide holders of 'hose, bills. He thought the people of
this country felt that the character of the Legislature
would suffer, if it allowed any party to be at a loss in con-
sequence of the gross mismanagement which had oc-
corred_in this department .of the Government.—(Hear.)
Whilst, however, the , public were -Willing that- the
bona
.fide holders should be paid the amount which they
had advanced upon the bills, he thought they.were at the
same time justified in insisting that the most scrutinising
I and searching investigation should be instituted, as to the
manner in which those bills had been -issued from the
lExchequer office or elsewhere.-L(Hear, _hear.) It was
not known where they came
.from, and the public wanted '
to know from what office they came ; and if it was proved
to be the consequence of mismanagement on the part of
the Government that those bills had been issued, from
all be heard, from different 9uarters, the public were
quite prepared that the bona fide holders should not suffer.
Now they had an illustration of what was meant by
responsibility, a word often used in, that House. They
heard that this or that was done under the responsibility
. of the Government. These bills had, it appeared, been
issued from the Exchequer-office, therefore it was under
the responsibility--of the Government. • He wanted to
know what that responsibility was, and who were the
persons that would suffer. lie wa, not desirous to in-
crease their mental suffering, but he, diet:not' like the
pockets of the people to suffer for their neglect. There-
fore, if a course of neglectin the ExChequer-office had
caused this fraud, he was anxious to know the result of
' the issue ,of these bills, and ' who would escape, and on
whom the responsibility would fall. He hoped in future
less respect•would be paid to the declarations made in
that House by the Government. -• .
Mr. J. S. WORTLEY, who was at first inaudible in
the gallery, was understood to say that Government had
directed their attention to the mode in which these Ex-
; chequer - bills had been issues], and the nature of the
Ifraud committed. Ile. thought a few words were due
due from his Right lion. Friend, in order to allay the
I apprehensidns of the public. He thought it would be
I well if his Right Hon. Friend would explain the steps
taken in order-to verify the authenticity of those bills
1 which were actually in circulation. They knew per-
! fectly well that certain steps ha.d been taken, and lie ap-
prehended it would' give additional confidence, if it were
I shown that means existed at the time, of establishing the
• authenticity of the '. bills in circulation. It appeared to ;
him that some notice should be taken of another subject, '
which hid exiCrd''the Government to great obloquy—
be ...:Iwthd to the proceedings in the late Exchequer bills
transactions, and the examination of the fictitious bills
(as we understood). No doubt his Right lion. Friends
had given reasons, satisfactory. to the .House, for taking
the course they did;. but they also knew that considerable
blame %vas thrown-on the Government by perzons in pos-
session of the bills, and who felt themselves aggrieved
at the courge pursued by the Government. lie had no
wish :uither to detain the House on the subject. lie
concurred in all the observations hitherto made, and he
thought the course adopted by his Right Hon. Friend
was likdly. to produce satisfactory results.
Sir R. PEEL rose to make one remark relative to what
had fallen from the Hon. Gentleman, the Member for
IFinsbury. , He, said ' the public were quite prepared to
gra,::, ildi compensation .to • the bona- fide holders. He
(Sir R.lPeel) hoped the' House•would establish no prin-
ciple vvtaever on. the subject(Hear, . hear)—as it was
desirable that they sheidd have a full and searching in-
quiry
into all the circumstances on the-subject. .No
principle ought to be established' until they had all the
filets olthe case be,Ore them. His Hon. Friend. said that
the ho ders of Exchequer bills could_ be charged with
gresi negligence; and he said, at the same • time, that
there nitight be cases where there might have been actual
criminttlity, and . that the •Rouse ought.to establish the
facts by making inquiries:- The Hon. Member for Fins-
bury asked if the inquiry would 'be complete. He (Sir
It. Peel) apprehended, that the Corntnissioncrs appointed
would have full power to protect the Crown, as-well us
guard the interests of .individuals, and the power of call-
ingtaming the exact facts of the matter.—(l-Year.)
m persons,. papees, and records, and of asccr-
Ire really
thought
t itwould not be expedient to 'enter- into, further'
argument on the subject. as to the manner in which
they could ascertain-the • bills to..be .genuine... Neither
was it necessary to-'go-through the exact mode in which
the inquiry would.be performed. lie believed the pub-
lic
ware quite 'satisfied that the investigation was an
effectual one. He did hope that• the :froase would studi-
ously avoid giving any opinion on the subject- of com-
pensation:;. ' that was a question that must come• fully
under; their consideration at a future elate ; he thought
they should also abstain from laying, down any principle •
till they were in possession .of the.whole.orthe facts.
Dr. BOWRING thought the course that had been
pursued bY the GovernmentVasimich to be commended,
and Bagged to express 'a hope- that -the •cortunission
woul4 sit immediately, and come to a decision as quickly.;
as poOble. - ' •
Mr. E. TURNER wished to know what steps they
had been taking to ascertain' what bills were forged and
‘vhati.ncrt, because it might be—he did not say that
such was the case—that' Rapallo had taken off great
quantities of those bills. lie thought it most expedient
that the Commission should come to their'dectsion its
soon its possible... That decision might be—'.though be
did *n• :expect it---that the whole of - the forged bills
should be paid ; and if such was the case, some limit
• ough4 to be assigned in which parties should come
in and Claim payment after. the Commission had come
to thiir•deeision.
TheCHANC ELLOR of the EXCHEQUER saidthat
in answer to the question of the Hon. Member for . the
to knbw why forged
• I West. Riding of Yorkshire (Mr. Wortley), who wished
were impounded, lie-
bills, when presented at the Exche-
querthoutt most i xpedient not
could . ,sounclyh'-as tnattiemtbheart
oiftt
hmowas
• ' bills circulate amongst the, public and create confusion;
and having beeninformed, by the best lee-al Advice that
he could procure, that he was ''' • ' cr
justified m impoun mg
i those bil4;„ he,iwtnediately „a,l,c direc:tions to impound.
.1 Ilion all and retain them, but giving notice at the, same,
' time to the individuals who had possession of theri;-that
if they required them for the purl o,e c f prosecutin the

ends of justice, either prosecuting the individuals from
whom they received them, or any -other persons who
might be liable to such prosecutions, they could have ac •
cess to those bills: The proof of having given such or-
ders was, that several parties having taken out some
of those bills for the purpose of obtaining the ends of
justice; had, by their means, recovered their money
from the party from whom they had received the bills,
and they afterwards returned them to the Exchequer,
where they now were. With respect to the question
put by the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, he seemed
entirely to have misunderstood the object of the Bill
proposed to be brought in. The Hon. Gentleman sup-
posed that the Commissioners would recommend the
whole of the bills'to be paid. Now payment of the bills
was not a question to be referred to the CommiSsioners.
They were to investigate the circumstances of the matter
and report the whole for the information of that House,
but the question of payment was by no means to come
under their consideration.

Mr. BLEWITT said .the Right Hon. Gentlethan had
not answered his question about the word " forgery"
being inserted in the Eight Hon. Gentleman's motion.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was
perfectly satisfied that no bills were issued but forged
ones. When the Bill which he (the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer) proposed to'lay on the table of that House came
in, if the Hon. Gentle Man thought it necessary to make
any alteration in the matter to which he referred, there
could be no difficulty in making such alteration.
Sir R. H. -INGLIS suggested that the word " issue"
should be added before the word " receipt."
The SPEAKER having, put the question,
Mr. BLEWITT gave notice that when the Right
Hon. Gentleman's Bill was brought in he would move
the omission :of the word " forged" before the word
" _

Mr. KEMBLE thought that he could state certain
facts which came to his .knowledge, which would show
that it would be much better that the word "repudiated"
should be inserted instead of the word" forged."'
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought
it would be the better way to postpone the discussion on
these points at present. It was getter that the title of the
Bill should reMain as it now stood. When it was intro-
duced the matter could be discussed ; and afterwards, if
it seemed necessary, the title could b altered. But that
he did not wish to trespass .on the time of the House, he
thought he • could give good reasons to show why the
word 4repudiated" was not the best term to be inserted.
Mr. ;'repudiated"
supported-the suggestion.
-The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER did not

think that the adoption of the phrase alleged to be forged
would be an improvement, for many real Bills might be
alleged to be forged. Let him bring in the Bill, and
they might consider the title afterwards. At present he
would adhere to his own title, but as soon as it was found
to be wrong he should willingly alter it.
The motion was agreed to, and Bill ordered to be
brought in.

thought it would be unwise to press the mction on the
Government. He had another (Meet in seconding the
motion, which was to state to the House his entire con=
currence in the iew=s of the Hon.. 'Gentleman when he
stated that railway communication would be of infinite
benefit to Ireland. He (Mr. Shaw) should be very sorry
'to let an opportunity slip for promoting a measure
which was of real and permanent interest to Ireland,
and in which no party feelings were involved.
With regard •to the particular object now brought before the
House by the Hon. Gentleman opposite he would not endea-
vour to prevent him pressing his measure, but he must say, front
all inf.,rmation he had collected on the subject; as well from
the Reports of the Railway Commission as from the -Report
of the Committee of the House, he did believe that a system of
railways might be introduced with the hest possible effect into
Ireland, provided it were a combined, general, and economical
system, in opposition to the system as undertaken by pri•
vate bodies at present.—( Hear.) He thought that
the question as to whether the system would be retnu-
nerattve or not, wood turn on the fact of the manner
in which they were conducted—combined or not. If Gocern-
ment would introduce such a measure, and enact the necessary li
preliminaries, and, being combined'as he said before, th.it is to
say, by having a common station in Dublin, and a part of the
line, say eight or ten miles common to all the line, no doubt
the measure would be remunerative, but it would only
depend on whether it were conducted on that principle
or by private body. He thought nothing should be done till
the whole subject was properly before the House. There was
another point, to which, however, he should not refer at length,
relative to the increased facility of cominunicatlon between
Ireland and the metropolis; birt he wouM say that the whole
journey from London to Dublin might be performed in the
time now consumed in the passage from Liverpool to Dublin,
which was fourteen hours. The House had lately expended
Considerable sums in improving harbours; &c., to facilitate this
communication, and he thought they were aware of the great
importance of making the communication as expeditious as
possible. He thought the dangerous communication between
Liverpool and Dublin ought to be put an end to as soon as
possible. He thought if a communication were effected by rail-
road through Wales, thereby having long land travelling and
a short sea voyage, the best results would take place.—
( Hear, hear.) He was convinced if the Government could
be prevailed on to cons Per of the improvements that
might be effected by a general system of *railWaYs
throughout Ireland they would be secured a full return
in the way of public economy, by saving, iii Post-office corn.
munications and other Government objects, a sum-consider-
ably greater than any they would be called hpon to expend in
promoting the object he was desirous to see advanced. lie
thought his Friend should allow the Government to have an
opportunity of looking further into the subject. If he refused
his request, then he should ask his Noble Friend, the Secretary
for Ireland, not to come to any positive decision on the subject.
Mr. REDINGTON must say that the Right Hon. Geri-
_ _ _ .

leman had backed his friend in a very indifferent manner.

1 hey were there for the purpose of affirming or negativ:ng the ,
present motion. Before he sat down he would allude to a ,
petition which he had presented to the House from •parties
connected with the Railroads be ween Belfast and Lurgan,
Dublin and Drogheda. Those parties did not seek immedia.e
pecuniary aid from the Government. What the public
wanted was that the Government should give a guarantee
of 4s. per cent. for hal the capital that the former should
advance, and then they would give the Government the
entire control of the system. He also hoped that the Govern-
ment would enable the Proprietors to get their Bills cheaply
through Parliameni ; for it would be impossible for any Irish
Company to encounter such expense as the London arid, Bir-
mingham Railway had had to pay. Considering. the position
in which recent measures placed Ireland, and that they did not
make a large demand on the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he
(Mr. Redington) hoped the present application would be
agreed to. -
Lord ELIOT thought there was a great discrepancy be-
tween the motion of the Hon. Me.nber for Roscommon and
his speech. The gist of the latte: was, that no other means
would do if the Government would not first take up the ques-
tion. Pe (Lord Eliot) felt himself in a difficult position, feel-
ing that if he objected to the proposition, he might be consi-
dered to undervalue the importance of railways to Ireland;
,whereas he thought no such thing. While he admitted that
rapidity of communication was net of such ,importance in an ,
aesicultural as in a commercial and, manufacturing country,
still he would say that the introduction of railways would confer
great advantages on Ireland; not the least of which would
.1 e the
employment and encouragement it would give to the labourers
of that country. This latter benefit he was most anxious to
assist in introducing. The Hon. Gentleman then referred to
the position in which this subj et stood in 1839 ; and as re-
spected the Noble Lord who preceded him (Lord E.) in the
office he had the honour to fill, no one felt more pleasur, than
he (Lord E.) did in bearing testimony to the talents and ami-
able character of the Noble Lord, whose conduct and bearing
had earned the just good wishes of all classes of the community,
amongst whom none were more willing than his Lordship's po-
litical opponents to acknowledge the kindness of his heart and
the generosity of his disposition. 11;s Noble predecessor, in
the year 1839, proposed a plan to the House, the object of
which was to recognise the principle that the Government
should undertake the construction of .railways in Ireland. It
was true there was some sort of security proposed to the Go-
vernment on the county cess of the counties through which
the railways would pass. If the le turns from the railways should
not prove sufficient to pay the interest of the money advanced,
it was proposed that the deficieney should be made up from the
county cess. He had no wish to goback to the consideration of
the question in detail, .but as it had been made part of the
proposition of the Hon. Gentleman, be (Lord E.) must say
that he considered that species of security little better than
illusory. -If a period of general distress should arise in Ire-
land no Government could come upon the counties to re-
imburse those advances,, and he doubted whether many of the
counties would not hesitate before they consented to such
terms. Dr. Griffiths 'calculated that the charge for railways
upon counties through which they might pass would vary from
ted. to 2s. an acre. f he. present county cess amounted to from
3s. 6d. to 4s. an acre, and, by the proposed plan, the liabilities
of the counties _would be considerably increased. The whole
of the county cess was defrayed by the occupying tenantry.
fie ikocr u.,t what arrangement it might be props-ed to make
on this subject between the owners and the occupiers of land,
but, unless some arrangement were made, the whole expense
would fall upon the occupier, who would derive little or no
advantage from the railway. It was true that Parliament hail
affirmed the proposition of the Noble Lord by a majority
of 44, but so coldly had that proposition been received
that the Noble Lord had t ken no lurther steps to carry it into
effect. Thus matters rested from 1839 to 1841. Last year
the Noble Lord had brought forward a stew proposition, the
principle of which he (Lora Eliot) considered unobjectionable.
It was merely a plan to facilitate the bringing together of the
capitalists, and the persons connected with the district, and the
only duty of the Government was to take care that the terms
agreed upon between them should be fair and reasonable. But
from what he had seen and heard in Ireland, he thought there
would be great hesitatiori on the part of the counties before
they acceded to the proposition. He would not say that if it
were modified it might not be acceded to, but as it stood at
present, he doubted much if the counties would accede. The
proposition, as he understood it, was, that an amount of 4 per
cent., should be guaranteed on the part of the
counties, any surplus funds being to be divided
equally between the county and the Company. He had
already said that the proposition would entail great
liabilities on the counties, and that great objection would be
entertained to it in many of them. He would not shelter him-
self by saying that the Government had the measure under
consideration—( Hear, hear)—nor raise illusory expectations.
—( Hear, hear,) But he thought it sight to say that the Go-
vernment would not make any advance of public money, or
give the guarantee which was proposed by the Gentleman who
had last addressed the House. There were, however, other
modes of facilitating and assisting railway enterprise, which
the Commissioners pointed out, and which the Government
thought it would be proper to adopt. The Commissioners
recommended the Legislature to assist any body of capitalists
that might come together for the 'purpose of promoting rail-
ways in Ireland, by relieving them from unnecessary, liabilities,
and by establishing one fixed and uniform system of compensa-
tion, with less regard to the extravagant demands of private
interest than bad prevailed in this country, and facilitate the
Parliamentary proceedings with the, least pessible expense;
that they should also be. protected from the ruinous competition
of rivsl companies. To that extent the Government was dis-
posed to assist —( Hear.) The Hon. Gentleman had referred
to Fiance and Belgiuni. But the case of France did not apply
to this country. '1 he system observed in France had alwa3s
been opposed to that of this couatry. All the great public
works in France were undertaken by the Government, and
private competition was almost wholly unknown.—( Hear.)
Belgium was a small country, and the expenses of the railways
were easily,ascertained. But that would not be the case in
Ireland, where the railways recommended by the Commissioners
to be undertaken in the first instance, would cost three millions.
The Hon. Gentleman talked of the refusal of England to give
that aid to Ireland to which he said she was so well entitled.
But he (Lord Eliot) thought the best' mode was adopted by
the Government of investigating the subject. They had
em-
ployed eminent engineers to make a survey of the country, and
the results of their inquiries was placed in the hands of private
persons, who would thereby be the better able to estimate the
advantages of railroads, which would facilitate their enter-
, prises. The Hon. Gentleman said that capitalists would not
invest their capital in Irish railroads, but lie (Lord Eliot) could
inform him, on the best authority, that the shares on the
Dublin anti Drogheda line, and also those on the Ul-
ster line, were better paid by the Irish sharcholdets
than toe shares in England were. No shares 'had been for-
feited in Ireland, whereas a great many had been forfeited
in England. The Hon. Gentleman then alluded to the enor-
mous increase of the imports and exports in Ireland; but it
appeared to him (Lord Eliot), that such an increase in the'
imports and exports was no argument for the intervention of
Government with regard to railroads, because those imports
and exports had increased without any aid from Government.
He thought that he would only be holding out a delusive hope
to the people of Ireland if he consented to the proposition of the
Hon. Gentleman. He was aware that the course of conduct
pursued by the Government might he fable to some misappre-
hension, but he thought it better to meetthe proposition of the
Hon. Gentleman by moving.the previous question than by ac-
-ceding to the proposition to encourage expectations which might
never be fulfilled.—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. O'CONNELL said the Noble Lord had spoken with
candour. He held out no hope of railroads for Ireland, and
'thereiore be did not bring forward anything that would lead
them to expect something when there was nothing intended.—
( Hear, hear.) They now knew that Government would do
nothing. They said they were right in doing nothing, and
whether right or wrong they would persevere. The Noble Lord
went en to disparage the agreement of the counties and the
mode of levying the tax. But this mode was perfectly familiar;
and the more so because all public works in Ireland had
been erected by that very tax, and the advances made by
the Goverernment had been. all paid by means of that tax.
Next, as to what the Noble Lord had stated respecting some
of ti,e counties not being likely to give their consent. He had
received information on this point,' which led him to think
that the Noble Lord's belief was not accurate. He had reason
to !now that most of the counties were perfectly ready to
come into the agreement. In most• of the counties on the
, different lines, the Grand Juries had actually declared their
assent to the mode proposed. In some conni leg. the Grand
Juries had made no declaration at all, but be thought he
was boane out in saying that no Grand Jury had declared
against it. Oa this point he thought the Noble Lord laboured
under a mistake. if the counties were testedto-morrow, the
result would prove to be as he had • stated with regard to
Grand Juries. If it were the quest ion whet her the
counties should be absolutely liable, it would raise a different
consideration ; but the entire revenue of the line, whatever it
might be, would be the first protection to the country, and if
they were only borne ouS by a Government guarantee, there
was no in obability that the counties would- be called on for a
single shilling; on the contrary, the rate of profit had been esti-
mated so low by the Commissioners, tl at it was impossible to
have any railroad that should pas; any of the principal towns,
but it would produce that rate of interest, especially if the lire
was constructed under Government superintendence, without
the waste of expenditure of private railways, on the Drogheda
line, which bad been referred to, the expense of passing the
Bill was 36,0001., and the whole of that expense, under Go-
, vernment management, would be spared. He confessed that
he could not agree with the Hon. Gentleman who bad spoken
before him, with respect to Government superintendence cf
railways. One great evil of railways in England was, that
wherever there was a railroad, there was a monopoly. and amp-
!' nopoly without yemedy, for there could not be any rival line on
1 account of the expense. It was a constitetionalprinciplein Fong
land, that the road MIS the Queen's highway, but they had

introduced an anomaly into their system by giving
the highways of England to public Companies. Now,
Ireland wes as yet untoniched, and though of course,
he sheauld prefer the lines to be under the manage-
ment of a Government more friendly to Irelihd, yet, what-
ever the Government might he, he thought it would be ah ad=
vantage if the railroads of the country could be put under Go-
vernment 'inspection and Government responsibility. They
did not call on this country for any money to be advanced ;
they only asked for a guarantee upon ample security. The
expence of obtaining an Act of Parliament would be entirely
done away with, and there would be an opportunity of-,making
the road in the cheapest possible manner, vi bile no roads would
be constructed but such as would be likely to be useful, as d
which would have a probability of a return for the outlay upon
them. The Noble Lord had spoken of the advantage Ireland
would derive from the able Report of the Commissioners, and
the convenience it would be if railways should hereafter
be c nstrucsed. But of what use was an excellent Report if
it was to he followed by wo consequence ? ( Hear, hear. )
The Report bad an effect, and a very prejudicial one; it esti-
mated the profits of those undertakings so ow that nobody
would venture to embark his capital in them. The Report
stated that no more than 6 per cent. could be expected to be
reaLzed (corn the expenditure, and that statement had thrown a
damper upon private speculation. The Noble Lord, the late
Secretary for Ireland, did not persevere with the measure he
had introduced, not that he disapproved of the plan, but be-
catoe he foresaw that with the opposition given to the measure
in that House, it was not likely to succeed elsewhere. The
Noble Lord had, consequently, abandoned his own thorough
conviction that it would be moat advantageous to have the plan
carried out in Ireland. He (Mr.. O.C. ) had only, in condo
sion, to express his regret at what he had heard that evening,
and to implore his Hon. Friend not to press his motion.
Lord ELIOT said in explanation, that he doubted whether
it would be expedient, in the event of the failure of the railways,
to come upon the occupiers in the counties. With regard to
the Grar.d Juries, it appeared to him that they were not al-
ways to be considered to speak the sentiments of the tenantry.
Captain JONES said that he did not think that the Govern-
ment would find that the rate.payers in counties would consent
to be taxed, even though such were the wish of the Grand Juries.
Mr. S. O'BRIEN thought that the Government ought to
take up the subject, because the Government would be anxious
to gise convenience to the public at the. smallest cost, while
private individuals would do the most they could to obtain the'
greatest profit. The expense of conveying the mails on rail-
ways would have been saved, if this system attic formation of
railways had been adopted. If they had to begin again the sys-
tem of railways in England, he should say that it
would be the most politic course for the country
that such principal lines as the Great Western,
and the Birmingham ought to be opened at the national ex-
pense. With respect to Ireland, there were oilier considera-
tions which, although they might be forgotten in this country,
were not forgotten in Leland. Those who• like him ( Mr.
Smith O'Brien) were favourable to maintaining the union be--
tweet' Ireland'and this country, said that the United Parliament
ought to legislate for Ireland in the same manner as her own
Parliament would have done.—( Hear, hear.) Now with re-
gard to this question, the circumstances of England and Ire-
land were not analogous. In England there wrs a large Fur-
plus capital. In Ireland all the capital that could he com-
manded could be advantageouslfotpplied to the cultivation and
draining of the land, and therefore it was not a use-
ful application of capital to embark in railways.—( Hear. )
It was the duty of Government to assist the people of Ireland
in carrying a general line of railways through that country, and
he (Mr. O'Brien) maintained that it was also the interest of
the Government to do so ; that both countries would be approxi •
mated by such a measure; that Lancashire and Yorkshire were
equally interested with any part of Iceland—( Hear, hear.)—
and certainly when 6,000,0001. or 7,00,000/. would give a gene-
ral line of railways throughout. all parts of Ireland, that sum was
so insignificant that, in ills opinion, it should not be spoken of
at all by the Government. So far as the county which he
represented was concerned, he felt it his duty to bring the
matter under the consideration of the Grand Jury at the last.
Assizes of Limerick, and they expressed .the most anxious
wishes that a general system of railways should be undertakerS
as soon as possible.
A ter a few words in explanation from Mr. SIIAW,
Sir H. PEEL said, he inferred from the speech of the
Hon. Gentleman who had brought forward the motion, that his
object was to recommend the Government to undertake a system
of railways in Irelend 'at the public expence, and that they would
advance a sum of money to carry out those objects. Through
out the whole of the Honourable Gentleman's speech,
that appeared to be his object. However, he (Sir R. Peel)
was bound to suppose, from the Right Hon. Gentleman's dis-
claimer that he had no such intention, that he did not mean
those expenses should be borne by the public, but that they
should be undertaken by private individuals. When it was
stated that an advance of public money was an insuperable
objection, the Hon. Gentleman ( Mr. French) said, with
correctness, that it was not his intention that those works
should be done at the public expense ; but he (Sir R. Peel)
should say that he thought that disclaimer of the Hon. Gen-
tleman also at variance with the context of the Hon. Gentle-
man's speech. If there were any doubts upon the subject, the
motion of the Hon. Gentleman itself had completely sit
them at rest ; because the Hon. Gentleman did not
.propose that an address should be proposed and voted
by the House itself, but that the House should resolve
itself into a Committee of the whole House, for the purpose
of preparing an address to the Crown—for the preparation of
an address where money formed no object. The whole House
was the proper authority to address the Crown, but a Commit-
tee of the whole House was 'the proper authority where any
pecuniary demand was sought to be granted ; and, therefore,
again he said, it he argued from the speech of the Hon.
Gentleman, lie should have thought that an advance of
money was his object. He (Sir R. Peel) granted that if
party considerations could have influenced her Majesty's Go-
vernment, that should have been, of all others, the very pro-
position in which, as a party movement, it should be his studs
to acquiesce.—(Cheers from the Ministerial benches, and
ironical cheers from the Opposition.) He had no doubt
that if her Majesty's Goveinment had said at once
that they were ready to undertake a system of railways,
in Ireland, that they would have conciliated a great number
of supporters amongst the Irish Representatives.—( Hear,
hear, from the Opposition.) But in the vresent state of the
finances of this country, would the Hon. Gentleman say that
6,000,000/. or 7,000,000/. could be a matter of such insig-
nificance, or so utterly unworthy of thought, that her Ma-
jesty's Government should beat once ready to undertake and
become the makers of such an extetisive system of railways.
If he (Sir R. Peel) thought the Government could honestly
incur such a risk in the present state of the finances of the
country, and if it was a matter of indifference to them whether
they undertoek a fresh expenditure, no doubt the Government
might have conciliated a considerable number of valued sup-
porters ; and therefore if her Majesty's-Ministers had not taken
that course, it proved they were actuated by far better mo-
tieee.—( Ministerial cheers.) He declared most 'sincerely
that if he thought such an expenditure could be encountered
with profit—if he really did believe that the under taking by
the Government to snake 540 miles of railways in Ireland
would be for the permanent and real advantage of Irelaad,
mar.y of his scruples would be thereby removed ; but he be-
Revert it would be for'the real interest of that country that Irish
gentlemen should act on the principle which had
been attended yvith such satisfactory consequences
an England—( Hear,'shear)i-2thiC it Would •be infinitely
better if they were uuderiaken by private speculation. He
really did think that when Hon. Gentlemen asked for public
money that they did not ask for what would be advantageous
to that country. When he looked at the whole history of the
Irish Parliament, whose experience they (the Government)
were now asked to follow—when he considered the grants of
that Parliament, and when he recollected the giants to the
Royal Canal, the Grand Canal, the Tyrone Canal, and the Shan-
non Navigation, he knew what would be the consequences.
Mr. FRENCH was understood to say that some of those
undertakings were not at the public expense.
Sir ROBERT PEEL said that surely the Tyrone Naviga-
tion was undertaken at the public expense, to afford facilities
far the working of the collieries on account of the exaggerated
statements then wade of the value of the coal mines. He
would undertake to assure the House that if those things were
left to private speculation tie individuals engaged in them
would weigh accurately the possibilities of remuneration and in-
terest for the capital expended, and then no doubt they would
net be undertaken, .unless there were very good grounds
i mnd
recommendsu
to hope for success ; but he should say
y the
themm to of
that to advise
her Majesty's Government to expend
to ex
6.000,000/. or 7,000,0001-, an
undertake that extensive system of railways at an expense that
probably might not be remunerative—after bringing to. ether
an immense congregation of labourers—and then a.ter giving
undue incentives to exertion upon their part, it would be a
weakness, and would only increase the evils and distre-s which
they attempted to remove. The Hon. "Gentleman said that
he..( Sir R. Peel) had in 1839 opposed the scheme proposed by
the late Government for the introduction of railways in Ireland.
It was quite true he had done so ; and he had then acted on the
very same principle upon which he now acted. If there was
a certainty that those railways in Ireland would pay the
amount expended upon them, it might be different ; but if not,
he very much doubted the policy of the Government interfer-
ing in them, c r of forcing on speculations'of that description ;
they would not repay the expenditure. They had all the ex •
perience of England to direct them in the matter, and no doubt
they would cerive the greatest advantage from it. Why
' did not the gentlemen of Ireland determine upon
one line of railway—suppose from Dublin to Cork
or Limerick—then it would be quite fair to give such
advantages or facilities as Government suPerintendenee
could afford, if they wished it. They had the land in Ire-
land already surveyed. They had their plans made out,
and a country particularly favourable in point of geological ad-
vantages. Why not then leave the matter to themselves ;
first, were the proprietors willing to permit their lands to be
taken upon a different principle from that usually adopted in
this country ? Were they willing to permit a valuation etf them
to be made, not accoseling to the estimate of the proprietor, but
upon some fixed principle, as in Russia or Prussia? if the pro-
prittors wre not willing to do that, ho should tell the House
that the Government woo d have very great difficulty in seizing
upon the land, of any gentlemen, and forcing them to part with
them. If proprietors of land were willing that their
own arbitrary estimates should not be acted upon, that might
indeed afford a great facility. If the price of those lands were to
be fixed or determined, suppo .e by Government Commissioners
—here again, for instance, would be the means of profiting by
the experience which they had of railways in England,
by taking a price that would compensate fur the lands, and
prevent, very great exactions; the country might profit by
that experience, and might thereby avoid many of the evils and
embarrassments which had arisen in England. Surely the
competency of the people of Ireland to undertake these works
were not denied? .If they resolved upon one line of communica-
tion and forgot political or party divisions, and the asperities to
Which they led—if the people of Ireland applied themsel es in
downright earliest to enter upon those speculations they would
—they must succeed.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Hon. Gen-
tlemen on the opposite side admitted in their speeches in this
House' that the resources of Ireland are rapidly increasing
that they are improving every day—that their agricultural pro-
duce is, increasing—shoiving that they could rely upon their
own native resources. Why, then, did they'ask for needless
ass'stance from the Government? Could not the people of
Ireland: show that they were equal to the task which the
people -of England and Scotland hail accomplished 2
( ilear,diear.) Let the people of Ireland, in the first in tense,
prove by the tranquillity of their country, that capitalists
could safely expend their capital there. But then it was sad
that went of tranquillity, and the heat of agitation, prevented
capitalists from speOulating with their capital its Ireland. But
if that country were perfectly tranquil—if its
people were
united; tog, ther for their mutual advantage, the money
those ; capitalists (who, as the Honourable Gentleman
oppoate said, were overflowing with wealth, and seeking out
remote quarters of the world wherein to apply it with advan-
tage) when they had reason to suppose that their soccula-
tions would be good in Ireland; it might be depended upon
that, mercy would flow into that country in great abundance.
What, fur instance-, was the account of the Railway Commis-
sioners with reference to the railway already completed in Ir. -
unAdenrtalkleonN,.hembEtltittevaead,nbny
tphreivaotpepionsditiev
land--,the Dublin and Kingston Railway ? That was a railway
under-
stood to say, that the Government had adiv(blanuealcilecshd. 'ilomn.eays for that
railway. .
Sir,R• PEEL said that nil have been ; however, the re-
port lo which he then alluded was that of a Company
relying upon their own. resources. Ile ree,ollected per-
fectly, well when Lord Morpeth was about to introduce an
extensive Government scheme- of railways—when he lisd se-
lece:la railway irom Dublin to'Cork, to be executed by the
Govetnment—he had met willeo great deal of opposition frorn
Govetnment in other parts of the country, who said that

was not fair to select one single line of railway—that nojing
could be done unless three .lines were commenced tha
3,800,000/. should not be expended in the complex
tion of one line, but that a sum of money should
be advanced for the commencr merit of three net'
lint& He (Sir R. Peel) thought that the consequence would
be, that there would be imputations upon the impartiality of
the Government; and, so far from giving satisfaction, it would
be said that there should he some other lines selected. Taking
advantage, then, of all the errors in the completion of railways
in England, and having the advantage of any assistance which
Government could give in seeing those works properly conducted.
and in malting new a•rangernents-with respect to the purchas*
of land, and affording facilities tier the purpose of preventing
enormous expenses, he (Sir R. Peel) did not despair that Ire-
land would easily, by the assistance of the Irish and English
capital be capable of conducting railway speculations to
a satisfactory issue. His proposition was not founded upon
any indifference or hostility to Ireland, but under a real and
conscientious belief that the interference of Government would
only check the enterprise of private speculation, and be an im-
pediment to the success of the undertaking.
The SPEAKER then suggested that unless a grant'of pub-
re money was wanted, the terms of the motion, "that the
House resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House"
should be omitted. _

Sir R. PEEL submitted that the House should guard most
strictly against the principle of establishing a precedent by ap-
proving of that mode of s.rginating giants of money.
Mr. WAKLEY said the Government was placed in a very
awkward situation when they refused so reasonable an
application as that made by his Bon. Friend (Mr. French).
He hoped the Right Hon. Baronet would act on his own re-
commendation with respect to Ireland. It was in the power
of the House to make Ireland prosperous. It was not neces-
sary that there should be a grant of money to carry out this
recommerdation. It was only necessary for the Right Hon.
Baronet to act fairly to Ireland—to give them social rights
and privileges equally with the people of this country. By this
he would carry out the resolution. He did hope the Right
Hon. Baronet would not forget his own recommendation, but
that he would set to work, and give to Ireland the benefits
which this ceuntry at present enj-,yed.
Lord S. RUSSELL rose, but was for a considerable time
inaudible in the gallery. He was understood to say, that he
did not object to the form of the motion before the House,
but he thought the Government ought not to make any publ c
grants fur the firrnation of railways in Ireland. He
did not think that it was well for the Minister of the Crown
to grant money under any circumstances to particular branches
of the community; but when grants were made, they should
consider the benefit of all. He thought, therefore, that the
House of Commons ought to be much more disinclined to
make grants of money than they had of late years. He thought
this argument told not only in the present case, but against
many motions of pact years. ( The Noble Lord here spoke
so low a tone of voice as to be almost inaudible in the gallery.)
On the 30th of June, 1841, a motion was made that the House
should resolve itself into a Committ. e of the whole House, to
consider an Address to her Majesty, stating to her Majesty the
blessings the country enjoyed under the Established Church—
(Laughter)—and to assure her Majesty that it was the duty of
the Government to employ a cos tam portion of the wealth of
the country to the extension of the Established Church ;
and hutnbly representing that the House would cheer-
fully accede to such measures as her Majesty should re-
commend, to enable the people of this country to enjoy
the blessings of worship in the Established Church.. For that
motion there appeared 149, and against it 168. Had that
motion been carried, it would have led to very ;considerable
grants.
Mr. POWELL, in answer to the Hon. Member for Fins-
bury, begged to say that the rich landed proprietors in Ireland
did not reside in that country, although they received their in-
comes from it.
Mr. FRENCH slid, after what had passed, he weekd with-
d,aw his motion —Motioa withdrawn.
COPY RIGHT BILL. _ _

Lord MIA HON, in moving for leave to bring in a Bill for
the amendment of" the law relating to Copyright, said he
should not attempt to raise any discussion. The subject had
been so frequently discussed in that House, he thought any
further discussion would be better reserved for the second read-
ing of the Bill. He wished only to slate the principal altera-
tions which he proposed to make. It was provided in the
811 brought in by Mr. Sergeant Tal:ourd that the
term of protection should be sixty years, commencing at•
the death of the author ; and the Bill he (Lord Mahon) lo-
tended to introduce reduced the term to twenty-five years.
He should also introduce a clause to gua•d against the possible
suppression of works by the descendants of the author, by
giving a discretionary power to the Legislature. These were
the alterations he should introduce into his Bill. . •
Mr. WAKLEY thought that twenty-five years would be
found as objec.ionable as sixty. He hoped when the Bill was
brought fo;ward the No le Lord would be prepared to show
why authors should have a different title to dun. works from
any other inventor. If the Noble Lord could satisfy ti e
House on that subject he wa- quite sure he would be successful.
Unless he could satisfy the House upon that point he hoped
ho would be unsuccessful.
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
CORN IMPORTATION BILL.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL said he aid not see First Lord
of the Treasury in the House, but he wished to ask when it
was proposed that the Corn Importation Bill should be read a
second time.
Sir G. CLERK said the question would be brought on
to-morrow (this day) at five o'clock, when, he doubted not,
the Noble Lord could 6.,thin the information he wished.
The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and the
House adjourned at Half-past Nine.

•
MEETING OF THE SOCIETY OF
FRIENDS TO FOREIGNERS IN DISTRESS.
A meeting of this Society was held yesterday at -the
London Tavern, Bishopse-ate.street, for the purpose of
receiving the report of the' present year, and of electing
pensioners to the funds of the Society.
Joins/. LABOCCHERE, Esq., was called to the Chair.
The SECRETARY read the minutes .of the • last -meet-
ing, and the Report, by which it appeared that the
funds of the Society were in a very
satisfactory state.
After paying all the expenses, Which amounted to
2,1.39/. 12s. 5d., including the expenses for the pen-
sioners, and for sending home 140 individuals, a balance
of 3031. 3s. 9d. remained in the Treasurer's hands.
Since the commencement of the Society, relief had been
granted in 59,214 cases, at the rate of 1,20c1. per annum.
To meet the expenditure, besides the receipts of the
annual- dinnei-, which amounted to 1,1601., and the an-
nual subscriptions received by the Collector, the follow-
ing donations were received :
From her Majesty, 100/. ; Queen Dowager, 10/. 10. s. ;
the Queen of Haeover, ICI ; King of the Belgians, 501. ;
Duke of Cambridge, - 25/. ; Duchess of Cambridge,
101. 10:4. ; DucheSS of Gloucester, 101 10s. ; Duchess of
Kent, la 10s. ; King of Prussia, 5001.
The number of eandidateS to be placed on the Pension
List amounted to 37, but of these the funds of the So-
ciety did not permit more than nine to be elected. Tile
following is the number of individuals from each
country who were relieved •in the last year :—Africa,
74 ; Asia, 18 ; COrsica,.6 ; Denmark, 71 ; France, 141 ;
Germany, including Austria and Bavaria, 873 ; Greece,
7 ; Java, 1 •, Italy, 53 ; lonian Islands, 1 ; Netherlands,
311 ; Poland, 49 ;. Portugal, 20 ; Prussia, 201 ; Ragus4
and Russia, 11 ; Sicily and Naples, 5 ; Spain, 44 ; 'Sardinia
and Genoa, 1 ; . Sweden, 77 ; Turkey, 2 ; Switzerland,
40 ; Venice, 11 United States-, 16.
Mr. TIARKs moved, and Mr. 1-11EiNINGS seconded, the
adoption of the Report, which was passed unanimously.
The Rev. Dr. 'SCHWABE moved the thanks of the
Meeting to the Chairman and Treasurer, John La-
bouchere, Esq., and that he be requested to continue. in
the same office for the ensuing year. He was aware 0'
the many claims which other duties imposed upon 10
time, and therefore they should be the more eateful for
that time ivhich be devoted to the interests oflteir SocietY•
and the benefits which thereby accrued to it. He trusted,
however, that lie never would have cause to regret the
sacrifices he made for the interests of the • society, and
that while he cell:aimed _to be a benefactor to the diS-.
tressed, he might obtain many valuable blessings for hini",.
self, and it was their wish that the. Almighty Giver 0'
all good.might long preserve and.euable him to continue
to be the protector and benelhetor of the Society.—(Hear.)
The motion having been seconded, t
The CHAIRMAN said that he thanked‘the meeting Inns
warmly for the kind manner in which his name had been
received. lie could assure the meeting 'he felt 9
deep interest in the welfare and success of the Societ)(l'.
The- more ne looked into the subject, the' more.convinee„l
he felt that the institution had a strong claim upon 9."
who were interested in the well-being of their fello%:
creatures. It was at present in a very prosperous cow;
dition ; and he was happy to state that they were non/
obliged to encroach upon their funded capital of 7,75 of
.The. reason was partly owing to• the liberal donation
the King of Prussia.—(Loud cheering.) He c(.)11;
tributed very liberally to every leading instituneos
in the country, bilt the largest contribution lie made W.lO
to that Society, w hich was the more valuable, because it,,yela
a proof of the estimation in which the Society was eess
by that illustrious' individual, who was eminent ne 1„;,.
for his high rank than for the anxious desire he ren-f
fested to promote the temoral and spiritual, welfaier,,
all.—(cheers.) But notwithstanding that liberal coin
bution of the Icing of Prussia, they should keel' Ili.
mind that they were not able to relieve all the
cants for relief. The number was increasing: f'o
year to year, but he trusted that not only by their olio
contribe ions, but also by raising up new friends.
behalf ()I' the Society, they would enable the institution,
not only to keep the.number of pensioners at present on
the list, bat even to increase that number.—(Hear.) ,he
Mr. DoxAT said he could not avoid express
gratitude 'ne felt for the interest taken in the Institt
lm
by their excellent Chairman, but he could assure -..ts
that much and highly as the lame of Labouchere"E;‘,
respected at home, was prized and blessed abreaihile
many a foreigner- who experienced the benefits of
generosity and .devotion to their cause.—(Cheers.)
The CHAttotAn. said it was gratifying- to annit left
that they had received, besides the annuity- of 500,,i_
by the late Charles Piesoliell, for unsuccessful e tz`„,
dates, 10/. from a lady in Bath .for the shine pure Oct
and that Mr. Brandt charged himself with the supPel
of another candidate.
The Auditors of the last year Were re-VP°instreterez-
The following Directors were elected Jon "`"-n Be"
hazes, Robert F. Gower,. David Salomon-,
U. A. Preller, and J. L. Lemme, Esqrs.:
thegeet-
i n grrstt rS:treudt.i Scrutineers were then appointed, and ,

-----_____ . . .
ACCIDENT 'TO Mw. JONES, THE COMEDIAN.-7-.le
public will regret to learn that Mr. Jones, for many y, ars u.n.:
wet. w'ro
rivalled in his line at Covent Garden Theatre, lately
an extraordinary and serious accident. Mr. Jones, whileool,
the act of advancing hastily towards the fire-place, bY 10,,,
means entangled his foot in the hearth-ruz, and fell bean
against the stove, with such violence as to scalp
c .nsiderable extent. In consequence of this accident teeth he
been under the constant care of an eminent surgeon tilu,ri„n,' the
last fortnight, but we are happy to learn that our 01n dramatic'
last the sklas
favourite is at lenght convalescent, and will shortly uul
accustomed avocations.
Last week the following extraordinary
fortune occurred to Mr. liiddulih, aged 0, tormerlY n3"11-
butcher in Clare-market, but who, from advcrsities had.ned
fortunately become so reduced in circumstarces as to be nbllf,a.
to Ilecome an inmate of the union-workhouse,. in °Tome,
street, Fitzroy-square. After rema'ning there sou 37, cope
has be cope of
a law-suit terminated in his favour, by Which he
Possessed of funded property and estates to the on9unwith
his atioeney, to take possession 0: his unexpected wealtlreAY
30.0001. We 'n .slay he quitted the workhouse in conll'aq
Mr. Loigh, the Mayo? of LiverpOol, who is ''. awing
reported to be the richest commoner in England, has,i,_i; will
ehange,oerf
the list month, received an accession of fortune under o:, that
of sOms old !F,4,y, who lived somewhere at the south-GA °1
, town. .
- . .