The Sun.
London, England, 1829-02-25 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS.-(LAST NIGHT.)

Mr. W. DUNDAS brought up a report from the Edin-
burgh Gas Company.
Co'onel SIBTHORPE presented a petition from Lin-
coln, against the Witham Navigation Bill. Also a peti-
tion from the same city against a chose in the above Bill,
restricting steam navigation on that river. The Hon. Mem-
ber observed, that the prohibition of such a mode of na-
vigation would be extremely inconvenient, and the peti-
tioners complained that it would also interfere with the
rights and privileges of the inhabitants of the city of
Lincoln.
Sir W. INGLEBY brought up some reports relative to
private Bills.
Sir It VYVYAN presented several petitions from various
parishes and districts in the county of Cornwall against the
Catholics. He observed, that freak the religious state of
that county they would not view this great question as
merely a political one; they did not talk of "bloody
Queen Mary," as it had been said they did, but they wished
the Constitution, as established in 1688, to be preserved.
—He would be the last man in the world to agitate the
country, but the people wished their Parliament to
be supreme.—(Hear, hear, hear.)—lie wished the
question to be discussed mildly and temperately. He must
say, however, that what had passed within the last few
weeks, or he might say within the last few days, had
tended in no slight degree to shake his confidence in the
honour of public men.—(Hear.)—He would allude to no
individuals, but deprecate inconsistency. Every man had a
right to change his opinions if he thought proper, upon any
subject, but he must think it extraordinary that so many
persons had, in the language which had been lately abed,
" miraculously gone over." It might he attributed to
hearing those arguments which the House were not al-
lowed to hear, and knowing those secret reasons which
they were not allowed to know; still, however, it was in-
, comprehensible to him bow individuals who had followed
and expressed the most decided opinions should have gone
over suddenly. If he looked at the progress of this question,
lie found that with the Whigs it was a party question, and
in consequence never was brought fairly before them. He
could not help observing, that in many cases places made the
men, and he firmly believed that if a Tory Administration
could have ken formed which would have supported the
Constitution as established in 1688, there would have
been plenty to have supported it ; for after all, it was not '
absolutely necessary, when the responsibility rested chiefly
upon the head where—" Sic volo, sic jubeo" was
the motto. He was willing to give all due credit to
the. Duke of Wellington. lie believed that there
was but one man, lie meant the Duke of Nlariborough,
who could he classed with bins for military set vice. Ile
gave him credit for his foreign policy, but great as he
might be, he (Sir R. Vyvyan) could not repose a blind •
confidence in him, and vote tor a measure which he did
not yet understand. He would not speak of securities, but
when they came before the House, he should then give his
opinion on them. It had been said that there was a pros-
pect of a civil war, or, in other words, rebellion in Ire-
land—but still it was the duty of that House to hand down
the Constitution to their posterity as pure as they had found
it. There was one part of this great question to which
he felt himself hound to direct the attention of the
House. There was a great conspiracy directed by
great and despotic individuals—( Hear, hear, hear. )
going on in Europe since the fall of Bonaparte. It had
been established at Vienna, and strengthened at Laybach
and Verona. It was a conspiracy against the liberties of
the peoplesif this country. It was directed by the Jesuits,
and carried on in the spirit and intolerance of the Catholic
religion. If it sought not to restore to that religion its
pristine simplicity, it sought to restore its pristine oninipo-
tence ; and when the House knew that such a body were
distributed throughout thi country, they should consider
well before they legislated on such an important measure ;
it was impossi;de to look with indifference to this great
question, which, if carried, be had no doubt would change
the Constitution of this country, the consequences of which
it was impossible to foresee.
Mr. PENDARVES said, before these petitions were
brought up he wished to say a few words on what
had fdllen from his Honourable Colleague. lie
(Mr. Pendarves) was convinced the great landed in-
terests, and the majority of the respectability of the county,
were in favour of Catholic emancipation—(haar, hear.)—
The petition presented by his Hen. Colleague had been got

up at district meetings, and by meetings convened privately
14y the clergy—(Hear, hear)—by this means they had
obtained 9,000 signatures, but could that he called the
majority of a county, which contained 250,000 souls?
' If there was a majority of the freeholders and inhabitants
of the county adverse to concession, why, he would ask,
was not a County Meeting called to determine that fact.
—(Loud cries of hear, hear.)—lnstead of this mode of
ascertaining the sentiments of the county, recourse was had
to district meetings, and by adroitly convening simultaneous
meetings at a short notice—in some cases the notice of only
one day being given—art attempt was made by some active
persons to get up petitions, which he believed by no means
contained the sense of the majority of the county. What
he conceived the sense of that majority to be, was, that this
important question should be confided to the wisdom of
Parliament, which was the most fit and competent place
to determine what should be done respecting it.—(Hear,
hear.)—lle would now mention a few circumstances to
I the House to chew the manner in which these petitions
were got up. From Penzance, from Launceston, from
Bodmin, and from Truro, and from perishes in the vicinity
of these towns, petitions had been forwarded. At some of
these places notice of meeting was only given three days pre-
viously, and in some instances the notice was limited to one
day., The invitation to attend the Meeting at Bodmin was
confined to those who opposed the claims of the Catholics,
so that that Meeting went off quietly and regularly, as it
was restricted to those who were only of the same way of
thinking. The meeting at Penzance was dissolved without
any decision at all having been come to ; for the Mayer
seeing that the majority were likely to decide in favour of
concession, declined to put the question, and dissolved the
meeting—(Loud cries of " hear, hear,")—so that the peti-
tion signed subsequently by the Mayor and others, could not
be regarded as the decision cf a public meeting. Another
meeting was attended by two Clergymen and one farmer,
and his (Mr. P.'s) informant, who had waited for some
time, said, that after signing the petition, they went away,
but that-no other person. Attended. At -Bodmin, the bell-
man went about, desiring all people to resort to the Town-
hall, and affix their signatures to the petition. His efforts
were aided by inflammatory pamphlets and by pictures,
published by some society denominating itself a Religious
Tract Society, in Paternoster-row. One of these publi-
cations, entitled " Look About Ye," was one of the most
abominable publications he had ever seen. Another publi-
cation, entitled " The Days of Queen Mary," contained,
as a frontispiece, a picture, in which Roman Catholics
were represented as burning a portion of their Protestant
fellow-subjects. All persons were sought after, even school-
boys were requested and urged to sign these petitions. Ile
would mention one more circumstance which had been stated
to him by a Magistrate, under whose observation the
transa'•tion fell. Two men had been tried and convicted
of stealing a large quantity of turnips. After the convic-
tion had taken place, these two persons were immediately
cereassed, and their signatures eagerly sought after and
obtained to the Anti-Catholic petition.—(Much laughter,
and cries of hear.)—This showed that persons getting up
these petitions were not exceedingly select as to the means
by which signatures were obtained, or AS to the persona
whose names were affixed to them. In many instances re-
course was had to coaxing and frightening ; persons went
about from door to door soliciting ; inflammatory pam-
phlets were disseminated—and no means were left untried
to obtain signatures. He believed, if these shameful pam-
phlets were not distributed, and if fanatical preaching were
not resorted to for the purposes of political excitement, that
the people of Cornwall would be well satisfied in leaving
this question to ParG•unent.—(Hear.)—He could not ihr-
bear from taking this opportunity of thanking his Ma-
jesty's Ministers for the measure of concession which they
had announced. In particular he would commend the
conduct of a Right lion. Gentleman (Mr. Peel), rot now
a Member of that House. The port he had acted conferred
the highest honour upon him.
Mr. BULLER expressed his opinion, that in Cornwall,
as in every other county in England, whatever might be
the numerical majority, there was a decided majority of the
talent and information of the populatitu in favour of the
Catholic Chime. .

Mr. IRTSKISSON observed, that no one could have
witnessed the talents which had been that evening dis-
played by the Hon. Baronet, the Member for Cornwall,
without feeling that that Hon. Baronet was perfectly com-
petent to fill any office of high rank in the country which
the confidence of the Crown might think proper to entrust
to him. Bat, although justice compelled him to pay this
compliment to the lion. Baronet's abilities, be (Mr.
Huskis•on) wished to address himself principally to tile
last part of the Honourable Baronet's speech. The
lion. Baronet seemed to consider that the all-engrossing
topic which, for the last three weeks, had engaged the atten-
tion of every thinking man in the kingdom, was to be
measured, not with reference to the interests of Ireland or
the British Empire. That the Hon. Baronet seemed to deem
the smallest consideration in his view of the case. The
lion. Baronet was disposed to look at the subject as a great
question of European policy. lie seemed to think that an
attempt was making to restore the Catholic Religion to the
state which it formerly held; that there was neither more
nor less than an extensive conspiracy throughout Europe
for that purpose, the centre of which conspiracy was at
Rome. The Hon. Baronet alleged, that ever since the
Congress at Vienna, the conspiracy to which he alluded
had been in full and active operation. Now the principle
which pervaded all the acts of the Congress at Vienna was,
that no distinctions of religion should interfere with poli-
tical arrangements. It was a principle which had been
applied all over Germany ; it was a principle which, some
time before, hail been applied in the Continental state of
that Gracious Sovereign whose beneficent recommedation
in favour of the Catholics was so soon to become the sub-
ject of consideration in Parliament. It was a principle
which had been followed up at Laybach, at Verona, and at
all the subsequent meetings of the Representatives of
the great Powers of Europe. If the Honourable Baronet
had confined himself to saying that there were powerful
Ministers in the services of some of the Continental
Sovereigns, who were not friends to civil and reli-
gious liberty, and who viewed with jealousy the progress
of knowledge and information on the Continent, he (Mr.
Icluskisson) would have agreed with the Hon. Baronet that
such might he the case. But when the Hon. Baronet as-
serted that these parties were at the same time engaged in a
conspiracy to restore to the Roman Catholics in Ireland,
and elsewhere, all their former power, he (Mr. liuskis-
son) must beg leave to dissent from any such proposition.
As far as his knowledge and observation went, he could
state unequivocally, that the party in France which the
Hon. Baronet considered friendly to the Jesuits, inimical
to liberty, anxious for the re-establishment of the absolute
power of the Catholic Church, and desirous to abolish all
free institutions, was the party that viewed with regret
and concern the attempts of the British Parliament to
tranquillise Ireland by admitting the Catholics of that
country to a full participation in the civil rights enjoyed by
their Protestant countrymen. On the other hand, he was
quite sure that the party in France which was anxious to
keep the power of the Pope within moderate limits, and to
confine him to his proper .pbere,was delighted at the course
which the British Parliament appeared to be about to
adopt. The party of which he had first spoken received with
dissatisfaction the turn which affairs were taking in Eng-
land, because that party was unfriendly to civil and reli-
gious liberty generally, and because it thought that the
effort now making to restore civil and religious liberty to
the Catholics tof Ireland would, if successful, prove fatal to
its views, hoped, and expectations of being one day en-
abled to restore the ancient system of intolerance and op-
pression. He was persuaded that if the Hon. Baronet
would take the trouble of inquiring into the conduct of
public men on the Continent, he would find that in propor-
tion as they were friendly to free institutions they were
anxious that we should concede their rights to the Catho-
lics; and that in proportion as they were adverse to free
institutions, and desirous to cramp the progress of liberty,
and put down the spirit of improvement, tiny were anxious
that we should withhold those right. As to the Jesuits,
there was no difference of opinion between the Honour-
able Baronet and himself on that subject ; and he should
be vary glad to see that odious institution put down.
The petitions were then brought up. On the motion
that they be read,

•
Sir R. VYVYAN, in answer to the question why, if
the feeling of the county of Cornwall was so strong in
hostility to Catholic concession, there had not been a county
meeting? observed, that there had been a county meeting.
It had been attended by thirteen Magistrates, all who were
in the neighbourhood. There were two-Magistrates pre-
sent at the Meeting who were very favourable to Parlia-
mentary Reform, and who talked of Magna Charts having
been obtained by our Catholic ancestors, and of ether mat-
ters, which had just as much to do with the Catholic
Question as the Institutes of Justinian had to do with it.
laugh)—With regard to what had fallen from the
Right lugighatHhon. Member for Liver Fool, it gave him (Sir R.
Vyvyan) infinite satisfaction to hear that Right Hoe.
Gentleman say, that if any measure were brought forward
to do away with monastic institutions in this country, he
would be one of the first to support such a Measure. Such
a step, if it did not remove all hostility to further concession
to the Catholics, would remove a great part of the objec-
tions to it which existed in his mind. As to what had
fallen from another Hon. Member, who supposed that he
(sir R. Vyvyan) and those who thought with him on the
subject, fancied that the modern Catholics were precisely
what they were in the days of Mary, all he could say
was; that they werelLA so besotted as to imagine that such

men as the Duke of Norfolk, or any other enlightened
Catholics, held to such opinions. He willingly acknow-
ledged that the rights which were taken away from the
Catholic Peers should be restored to them ; and he should
be happy to see every Catholic Peer occupying his seat in
the other House of Parliament. But in this House there
Were no rights of sitting. Many other persons besides Ca-
tholics were unqualified to sit in the House of Commons.
Clergymen were unqualified; or persons not posse,sing
certain pecuniary qualifications. Were it not so, the lowest
and poorest cf the people would be entitled to sit there. In
the House of Peers, however, there was a right of sitting.
Ile should have been glad if the supporters of the question
had first tried the question of re-seating the Catholic Peers
in the House of Lords.—(Several Members, " It has been
tried.")—Then let it be tried again. That would have
been much better than taking the country by surprise.—
(Hear.)—With regard to the late French ;Ministry aid
their opinions and wishes respecting concession to the Irish
Catholics, he was surprised to hear what had fallen from
the Right Hon. Gentleman. He could only say that the
organs of the Ministry expressed the sentiments which he
(Sir R. Vyvyan) had ascribed to them.
Mr. HUSKISSON, in explanation, said that he did
not assert what he had asserted on the subject adverted to
by the Hon. Baronet on any official grounds ; but of this
he was sure, that if the Hon. Baronet were to go to Paris,
and to mingle with society in that capital, he would soon
find that the friends of the Jesuits, and the enemies of Ca-
tholic Emancipation, were the same persons.
The petitions were then ordered to be printed.
Mr. EGERTON presented a petition against Concession
to the Roman Catholics, frem the county of Chester.
Mr. WILBRAHAM, connected as he was with the
county of Chester, begged to be allowed to say a few words
on the subject. He had good reason to believe that some
of the individuals whose names were attached to the peti-
tion, were of very tender age. When, however, he recol-
lected the efforts that were made to give the Meeting at
Knutsford an overwhelming character, such as to rival the
meeting of the county of Kent—when be recollected the
individuals who condescended to go round and endeavour
to prevail upon persons to attend the Meeting, by stating
that the question was not merely whether the Catholics
should be admitted to civil rights, but whether the Pro-
testant Church should be allowed to be endangered, hm was
surprised that a much larger party was not found to sup.
port the petition. He was sure that he might say, in the
name of the great body of people in Cheshire that they were
perfectly ready to acquiesce in any measure which his M
jesty's Ministers might bring forward to give tranquillity to
Ireland and strength to the Empire, provided they could
show that the concessions which they proposed to make
were compatible with the security of the Protestant Esta-
blishment. So much in their name. In his own, not
believing there was any danger, be thought it idle to talk
of securities. _ _

Mr. LESTER complained of the manner in which the
petition had been got up, and of the arts resorted to in
order to obtain signatures. He objected to the words of
the petition, where it stated that the Catholics never dis-
tinguished between their religious and civil allegiance. He
might prove the contrary by numerous instances, and par •
ticularly that of the Catholic Lord Howard, who bad de-
stroyed the Catholic Armada in his service to a Protestant
Princess, and who had been excommunicated for so doing.
The petition was then ordered to he on the table, and
to be printed.
Mr. BANKES presented two petitions from Grimatone,
and another place against the Catholic Claims.
BOROUGH OF TRURO.

The Hon. MEMBER then moved for a new writ for,
the Borough of Truro, in the place of Lord Fitzroy So-
merset, and another for the same Borough, in the place of
W. E. Towline, Esq., both of the Hon. Members having
accepted the Chiltern Hundreds.
Lord MANDEVILLE presented three petitions against '
the Catholic Claims.

Mr. BELL presented a similar petition from a parish in
the county of Northumberland.
Mr. FRENCH presented a petition from the county of
ROFCOIIIIIIOD, and petitions from the parishes of Ardland,
St. John, St. Peter, and St. Killoodle, in the same county,
in favour of the Catholic Claims. _

Mr. BORRADAILE presented a petition of an opposite
nature from Newcastle.under-Lyne.
Mr. LLOYD presented four petitions from places in
Ireland, in favour of the Catholic Claims ; and two peti-
tions from the same country—tile first against the Sub-
letting Act, and the last against the Vestry Bill.
Mr. BASTARD presented a petition against any further
concession to the Catholics, from the city of Exeter. The
lion. Member took that opportunity of stating, that his
opinions on the subject of concessions had undergone no
change.
Sir T. D. ACLAND had been desired by a numerous
and very respectable body of his constituents to attend in
his place in that House, and to join his colleague in pre-
senting the petition. Athough, he was sorry to say, that
the petition was against what he could not but consider as
the best policy of the country, he was bound to bear witness
to its prayer being couched in temperate language. lie
was likewise bound to state, that although the petition was
numerously signed, and by a decided majority of the
Meeting, he had another petition which he should present,
and which wowed show that a great proportion of his con-
stituents were of the directly opposite opinions.
Mr. HOLES WORTH spoke to the respectability of the
Meeting.
Lord EBRINGTON complained of the misrepresenta-
tions which had been made respecting Devonshire, by
persons unconnected with the county, and ignorant of its
sentiments. It hail been circulated through the country,
that the people of Devonshire were almost unanimously
against the principles of religious liberty being conceded to
the Roman Catholic subjects of the kingdom ; and that
were the opinions of the county fairly canvassed, they
would be found against Emancipation in the ratio of 99 in
100. He most positively denied the truth of this assertion.
Great exertions had been made to get up the Exeter peti-
tion. The people had been asked whether they would not
support the Government against the Radicals, and every
prejudice had been excited, and every misrepresentation
had been made, to obtain their support to the petition.--
And what had been the result of these artifices and exer-
tions ? Out of the male population of the county, amount-
ing to 200,000, only 16,000 persons had been induced to
sign. He could not at all subscribe to what had been said
by the Hon. Gentleman opposite, as to the order of the
Exeter int eting, and he wished the people at that meeting
had only conducted themselves a little better. Ile pro-
tested against the sense of the meeting being taken as un
index of the sense of the county.
Mr. LOTT bore testimony to the respectability of the
Meeting at which the petition had been got up. It was
true that the Aristocracy of the County, in favour of the
Roman Catholics, preponderated, but the signatures to the
petition were all of tl em highly respectable.
The petition was brought up and read, and ordered to
be printed.
Sir T. D. ACLAND said, he rose with pride and sa
tisfaction to present a petition most respectably signed by
the freholders, leaseholders, and other inhabitants of the
County of Devon, in favour of the Roman Catholic
Claims (hear, hear !). It contained 2,200 signatures, to
each of which was attached the address anti designation of
the party; amongst the signatures were the Venerable
Lord Lieutenant of the County, the High Sheriff, of 50
acting Magistrates of the County, amongst whom were
three out of the four gentlemen who had acted as Chair-
men of the Sessions during the last three years (hear,
hear !). It had also affixed to it the signatures of 20
Clergymen of the Established Church in that county—a
body hitherto opposed to the Roman Catholic Claims in
that county, and amongst them was to be found the name
of the distinguished Chancellor of time Diocese (hear, hear,
hear !)—a man who was an ornament to his station. He
thought he had said enough to shew the respectability
of the petitioners, anti hoped that the great question, in
favour of which it was, would be speedily and for ever set
at rest.
The petition was read, and ordered to be printed.
Sir T. D. ACLAND presented three similar petitions
front districts in Devonshire, and also a petition from the
hundred of Tanstuk, praying a protecting duty on wool.
titions were presented against the Catholic Claims
from Walcott, and another place in Somersetshire, by Sir
T. LET IiBRIDG K j from Warkup, in Rutlandshire, and Far-
thington, in Northaniptonshire,by Mr. THANTfrom Ha-
lifax, in Yorkshire, signed by 10,500 persons, by Mr.
DtiNCOMBE.
Mr. O'NEILL took this opportunity of stating, that
the majority of his Constituents, in Kingston-upon-Hull,
were in favour of the Catholic Claims.
Mr. DUNCOMBE, in moving that the petition front
Halifax be printed, said that all the persons who signed it
were over twenty-one years of age.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL presented petitions in favour
of the Catholics. from Bandon (Ireland); and from the
Protestant Dissenters of Brighton and Berkhampstead.
The Noble Lord also presented a petition from Bandon
against the Sub-letting Act and the Vestry Act.
Mr. OTWAY CAVE presented a petition from the
Protestant Dissenting Minister and Congregation of Lei-
cester, in favour of the Catholic Claims.
EMPLOYMENT OF THE POOR.

Mr. SLANEY rose to bring forward the motion of
which he had given notice, relative to the provision for,
and employment of, the poor in this country. It was stated
by Mr. Sergeant Beaufoy, who eat in that House so►ue time

ago, that if the then system of Poor's Rate was persevere
in, we should in fifty years have the Poor's Rates moot
to twelve millions, and that prophecy he had little doubt
would be fulfilled, as they now exceeded eight millions
year. He conceived that the butthens,wl(ich the present
system threw on the agricultural and other interests of the
country as a mere trifle, compared with the degradatioe
and disgrace which that system brought upon a large per'
time of the community. In the latter part of the last cell'
tory, the number of paupers was us one in twelve; ro
1801 it was as one in nine ; and now it was as one if,
seven. There were at this moment more than two mil'
of paupers in the country. With the increase of pay
p,rism came the increase of crime, as the various Re'
turns on the Table fully demonstrated. This evil he at•
tribute(' mainly to the abuses of the Poor Laws, The
law clearly said, that employment was to be pro'
ailed fur those who had no work, and provision made
fur their children ; but by seizing on one ambigeoue
word, namely, the word " impotent," who were also to be
provided for, the whole spirit of the law was perverted•
The poor were now provided for in three different way's►
in different districts. First, able-bodied labourers were
paid out of the Poor's-rate ; or the rent of their housee
was paid from the same source ; or, thirdly a weekly allow'
once was made to them and their children by-the mwrr'
seers, Now, he appealed to those Hon. Members who had
studied this subject, whether they had not observed the
evils of this system ? The lion. Member argued that the
relief now afforded to married men in proportion to the
number of their children had the effect of making red'
idle and careless, and of inducing them to enter into tall'
provident marriages, and destroying that forethought
which men, in all stations of society ought to encourage
in the highest possible degree. In one of the reports it
was stated, very truly, that low wages gave rise to allow"
ances, and that allowances gave rise to low .wages, DO that
they operated as alto nate cause and effect. The ardent
to which he objected extended through eighteen conntiee
lying south of a line drawn from Bath to Cambridge•
—One of the consequences of this was the increase
of the system of poaching. In one county persons had
been taken up on the charge of poaching, and of thee
eleven were parish paupers, being single men who received
2s. rid. or 3s. per week ; the twelfth was an experienced
poacher, who hired the rest to go out at 2s. 6d. a night•
This was sure to be the case where single men, though able
and willing to work, only obtained frem Bs—to 4i. per
week from the parish, while married men, merely on .ace
count of having families, and without any reference so cir-
cumstances, got as much as 12s. per week. rle now came
to the remedy. Many remedies had been attempted) bet
they had all failed, because those who had made them had
not known what was the real object in view. The real
object was to give assistance to the poor in such a manner
as not to increase pauperism. The object of the Poor Lave
would be better attained by totally supporting a few, than
by partially supporting all. By that means a line would be
drawn between the idle and the industrious, and_the good
and the bad. It was further proposed that, after a tertaia
fixed day, any able-bodied man, if he applied for reliefs
might have parish work, but he should not be allowed to
receive wages from a private person, and to have
those wages made up from the parish funds, While in
actual employment. Some people were afraid that this
chat ge would affect the fanners severely, but they should re-
collect that, in proportion as wages were raised," poor',
rates must fall. He concluded by moving
,for leave tO
bring in a Bill to declare and amend the laWe relating tO
the employment and support of aide-bodied paupers, and
for the better rating of tenements of a certain. value.
After a few words from Mr. Home and Mr.
Leave was given.