The Sun.
London, England, 1842-04-29 00:00:00

Lord STANLEY said he agreed with the Hon. and Learned
Member who had just sat down, that this House was not a
proper tribunal to decide legal questions.—( Hear.) He would
himself consider this question without any party feelings, but
with a desire that real and substantial justice should be done to
all parties, and that the authority of the Honse should be main-
tained.—(Hear, hear.) It appeared to him that, until she
Honse was perfectly satisfied that the warrant issued by the
Speaker was illegal, the presumption of the House ought to be
that it was a. document of legal authority.—(Hear.) lie
was the more disposed to form that opinion because, though
the question came by surprise on the House, it did not come
upon the Speaker by surprise, because he had taken the
opinion of the professional adviser of the House on the subject.
And he was disposed to lay greater stress on an opinion given
by a lawyer out of the House than one given by a lawyer in it,
who had not time to consider the question in all its bearings.—
(Hear, hear.) He confessed he did not consider the answers
of the person at all satisfactory, and the Committee having
come to the opinion that it was necessary to ask the sanction
of the House for their proceedings, they wished to have him
remanded. Now he would not give any vote affirmatively or
negatively on the point oflaw, but he was prepared to give his
vote, if the Committee thought it necessary, for detaining, not
for committing, this individual in the custody of the Sergeant-
at-Arms, until the substantial justice of the case was made out.
But if the Chairman should to-morrow state that the witness
had appeared 'without farther compulsion, and that he did not
apprehend that the man would absconil, then he (Lord S.)
would support the Chairman if he should move that Mabson be
released; 07 he (Lord S.) would support the Chairman, if
that Hon. Gentleman should think it his duty to move that the
man be detained until certain other witnesses had been ex-
amined.—( Hear. )

Sir V. BLAKE was understood to say he considered the
Speaker's warrant an illegal document; but, as the man had
submitted to it, he had better be kept where he was until he
was wanted.

Nlr. H. HINDE reminded the House that, while they were
boasting of supporting the views of the Committee, in reality
they were net doing so. The report of the Committee in-
structed the Chairman to move the House that Mabson be com-
mitted to Newgate, but this application the House had repu-
diated.—( Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Hinde) thought his motion
for the adjournment of the debate would have best settled
the question for the present. Now, he must vote against
the motion.

Sir W. FOLLETT said he thought it right to say a few
words on this case now, as an Hon. and Learned Gentleman
had taken a view of the case to which he (Sir W. Follett)
could not assent. The question before the House was, whe-
ther a Speaker's warrant having been issued during the last
Session of Parliament, with reference to an election petition
tried in the present Session, a witness who did not now attend
under it was guilty of contempt ? Now when the warrant was
read, he (Sir W. Follett) certainly did not think it was a legal
document.—( Hear, hear.) He was not then aware that all
previous Speakers' warrants were liable to the same objection,
but now he understood they were.--( Hear, hear.) His opi-
nion was, that the warrant had expired last Session, and that
it should have been renewed during the present Severn.
This was his feeling, but he was unwilling to speak in a more
determined tone on the question, since he had just heard that
the Speaker and the Hon. Gentlemen opposite had submitted
the subject to counsel under whose deliberation it was now.
He should not think, however, that he would be justified in
voting now that the prisoner should be discharged on the
ground that the warrant was illegal—(Hear, hear)—but he
thought that the matter as to the illegality of the warrant ought
to be set at rest.—( Hear, hear.) It was a question whether
the whole machinery as to the issue of these warrants did not
require amendment. —(Hear.) It was proposed to commit the
prisoner for contempt, whereas the Committee had reported
that he had disobeyed the Speaker's warrant, which was an of
of a peculiar character, and different from mere contempt.
In fact, the Report of the Committee did not fully inform the
House what it had to decide on.—(Hear.) He would admit
that party feeling was shown on such occasions as much on one
side as the other, and he considered it a very unfit tribunal to
try those questions.—( Hear, hear.) He did not think
that any purpose would be served by committing this
man to prison. But he thought means ought to be taken to
ascertain whether the prisoner bad really transmitted the
papers to Mr. Ward or not. If it shoul I be found that he
had done so, surely the House would feel some regret if,
after having committed him, it were found that the man had
not offended at all, He thought the ends of justice would be
satisfied by ordering the witness to attend the Committee,
without keeping him in the custody of the Sergeant-at-Arms
all night. That he thought to be the most fitting course to
pursue, unless there were reasonlito apprehend that the witness
might abscond. If he were ordered to attend before the Elec-
tion Committee to-morrow the matter would be freely gone
into, and, in the meantime, the question respecting the legality
of the warrant would be investigated and be put at rest, at
least as far as legal opinions would go to the deciding of such
a question.
Mr. C. WOOD complained of the conduct of the Hon. and
Learned Member for Woodstock in reviving the debate
after every person in the House had thought it had
been concluded. The Hon. Chairman of the Committee had
left the Committee under the impression that the witness was
to be committed to the custody of the Sergeant. at-Arms for
the night. The Learned Solicitor-General himself had, in the
early part of the evening, recommended the adoption of that
course, and the First Lord of the Treasury, who took so honest
and straightforward a course upon all questions respecting the
trial of election petitions, had declared that he considered the
conduct of the witness unsatisfactory, and had given it as his
opinion that he ought to be detained in custody. In fact, with
the exception of the Member for Newcastle, no one had spoken
who had not agreed that it would be proper to retain the wit-
ness in the custody of the Sergeanteat-Arms. In no debate
on questions arising out of any proceedings before Election
Committees had he (Mr. C. Wood) ever been actuated by
party feeling. He had always, to the utmost of his power,
supported the authority of that tribunal which the House had
chosen for the trial of these questions, and he was sorry to see
so many Gentlemen coming forward, principally, he must say,
from the other side, for the purpose of questioning the autho-
rity of those tribunals. He regretted to see Honourable
Gentlemen, Members of that Committee, coming forward
to express opinions adverse to the decisions of the majority of
that Committee, and he was also sorry to hear what bad fallen
from the Learned Solicitor-General on the subject, ignorant
as the Hon. and Learned Gentleman must have been of what
had been the conduct of the witness before the Committee.
The witness had never questioned the legality of the warrant;
he had appeared to it, and he stated, .as a justification for his
not bringing the papers, that he had incautiously parted with
them. He had parted with possession of'those papers under
circumstances that threw suspicion on his conduct, and he
(Mr. C. Wood) agreed with the First Lord of the Treasury
in thinking that it would sot be right that this man should be
set at liberty to defeat the ends of justice.
Mr. GODSON said, the lion. Gentleman who had just
sat down, and the Hon. and Learned Gentleman who had pre-
ceded him, seemed to him (Mr. Godson) to adopt a strange
notion. They toll them that that tribunal, if it numbered a
majority of one, which, therefore, became the act of one man,
could commit one of her Majesty's subjects to' Newgate.—
(No, no.) This was the extent of the argument urged on' the
other of the House. The Committee had not sent that per-
son there for refusing to answer questions, but for non-pro-
duction of two classes of papers. Either these papers were of
value, or they were not. He (Mr. Godson) was prepared to
argue either way.—( Laughter.) The re were two classes& papers.
One was documents being mere counterfoils, and not drawn
except in one instance by the witness. These counterfoils
merely contained the names and the date. Well, what seas the
other? Why, merely three tradesmens' bills—in all, fifteen
bills. If these papers had been lost, the Counsel might have
inquired into their contents. These tradesmens' bilis were
sent to the Chairman of the Election Committee, and after-
wards lost. He (Mr. Godson) should vote against the wit-
ness continuing in custody, as there ha.. been already three
inquiries before the House of a similar nature. He believed
the application ha 3 been made in that instance by the Counsel
for the petitioner, in order to act on the nerves of the rest of
the witnesses.—(Laughter. )
Mr. HUTT would not reply to the argument used by the
Hon. and Learned Gentlemen who had just seat down. He was
sure they were sufficiently replied to by the good feeling of the
House.—( Hear.) With that remark lie would leave the obser-
vations of the Hon. Gentleman, and he (Mr. Hutt) felt ex-
tremely sorry to be compelled to take part in that debate, be-
cause he believed that it would be more decorous in Hon. Gen-
tlemen to abstain from taking part in that discussion.—(Hear. )
The lion. Gentlemen on his side of the House had fully believed
that the discussion was a an end.—(No, no.) He stated what
was the impression of Hon. Gentlemen on his side the House.
He found himself compelled to address the House in conse-
quence of the observations of the Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man. He could assure the Hon. and Learned Gentleman that
he (Mr. Hutt) swas by no means exempt from the censure
the Honourable and Learned Gentleman had been pleased to
throw on the Honourable Members on his (Mr. Hutt's)
side of the House. He (Mr. Hutt) when he was at the head
of a Committee, found himself in extreme difficulty. He
was called upon to exercise judicial functions of the highest na-
ture, at the same time having no knee ledge whatever of the
case. With regard to this particular ease, he would state to
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman and the House the motives
under which he acted, and the reason why he could nor agree
with the Hon. and Learned Solicitor-General. 112 was con-
vinced, from what had taken place in that House, that the wit-
ness had wilfully disobeyed the summons of the. Speaker. He
was likewise convinced, both by the circumstances charged be-
fore the Committee, and what he had heard in that House. that
the witness had been actively engaged in diverting the course
of justice. Under these circumstances, he felt it imperative on
him to agree in the motion, that the witness should not be
permitted to go at large without some degree of punishment.
He did not entertain this feeling from any party motive what-
ever ; but because he believed that the witness had been
guilty of a dereliction of duty ; because he believed lie had
endeavoured to defeat the ends of justice, in disobeying the
Speaker's warrant. He (Mr. Hutt) therefore considered he
ought not to escape without punishment.
The SOLICITOR-GENERA L explained. He could assure
the Hon. Member that he never had had the slightest idea of
imputing any thing but the purest of motives to the Committee.
Lord HOWICK said, he understood the expression used by
the lion. and Learned Member to be, if he remembered
righ!lv, "that he thought the Committee had acted preci-
pitately."
Several Hon. Members,—No, no, " prematurely."
Lord HOWICK then must have been mistaken ; and if the
Hon. and Learred Member said so, he (Lord Howick) must
bow ; but certainly that was the word understood by him
(Lord Howick.) Well, then, the Hon. and Learned Member
had said, that the Committee had acted prematurely. Now
he (Lord Howick) thought that, in a case of that kind, such
an opinion, and coming from him, involved a censure on
the Committee.—( Hear.) That censure he (Lord Howiek )
must take the liberty of saying, in his opinion was not
quite proper for the Hon, and Learned Gentleman to give,
unless upon the strongest grounds, which he (Lord Howick)
did not think existed in the preseit case. He (Lord Howick)
looked at this ease as it appeared upon the Report. Looking
at the case as it appeared on the face of that Report, he con-
sidered the Committee acted with perfect propriety. —( Hear. )
It was alleged that at the late election for Southampton there
were papers used which were required by the Committee. For
the purpose of obtaining these, a Speaker'; warrant was served
on the party holding them, to produce these papers to the
Committee. Now 'it was perfectly notorious to Honour-
able Gentlemen who had attended those tribunals, that
it was of the very greatest importance that that order
should be served upon the witness as speedily as pos •
sible after the election, to prevent the person holding
the papers from making away with them. Many Hon. Gentle-
men opposite sneered at the Reformed Parliament, and talked
of bribery being store prevalent now than before. He (Lord
Howick) had heard sneers of that sort, but he thought it
would best become Hon. Gentlemen who desired to put
a stop to a system of bribery, to co-operate with those who
were endeavouling in every case to bring it completely to light.
Now he thought that of all the proceedings of this sort that had
come before the Committee, this was that one which required
investigation. The witness had been summoned to the bar,
and his defence to the charge of not producing the papers was
that he had forgotten to take care of the documents. Now he
(Lord Howick) asked whether a statement of that kind could
be true coming from an old electioneerer, one calculated to
kaow what was of importance and what was not, and knowing
that proceedings of this kind were likely to take place,
whether he would be likely to forget documents of
this description. He could not believe he would.
Even if no warrant had been served, if the witness wilfully
kept out of the way information required by the Committee;
eve* if a Speaker's warrant had not been served, he was guilty
of the offence of contempt, as it was called. He refused to
produce these papers, which were essential to the ends of jus-