The Sun.
London, England, 1827-05-05 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Lord LOWTHER brought up the Report of the Com-
mittee appointed to inquire into the Camelford Election.
The Report stated, that the two Sitting Members were
duly elected—that the petition against their return was not
frivolous or vexatious, nor was the oppdsition thereto.
Lord BINGHAM presented a petition from Killarney,
in favour of the Catholic Claims.

Mr. EGERTON presented a petition from Macclesfield,
against the Alehouse Licensing Bill.
Mr. CHAPLIN presented a petition from the Coroners
of the County of Lincoln, praying for an Increase of their
Fees.

Mr. ESTCOURT presented a petition from the Magi-
strates assembled at the last Quarter Sessions for Wilts,
praying the House to take into their consideration the
Laws relating to the Preservation of Game. He begged
to recommend the subject to the serious attention of the
Right Hon. Secretary of State for the Home Department,
and he felt that that Right Hon. Gentleman would give it
his most serious consideration, as it was a question of great
importance to the good regulation of the Police of the
country. The Hon. Member gave notice that he should,
in the coarse of next week, introduce a motion, with the
view of referring this subject to a Select Committee
up-stairs.
Mr. CURTEIS presented two petitions from Freeholders
in different Parishes of Sussex, in favour of the Sussex
Election Bill.

Mr. BURRELL presented a petition to the same effect.
Mr. BELL presented a petition from the Inhabitants of
several Parishes in the County of Northumberland, against
the Importation of Foreign Grain. The same Hon. Mem-
ber afterwards moved for a Return of the number of Ships
and their Tonnage, entered inwards at the Port of Liver-
pool, from Denmark, Norway, Russia, and Prussia, within
the last five years ; and also an Account of the Number
and Tonnage of Vessels entered inwards at the same Port
from the United States of America during the same period ;
and also an Account of the Number and Tonnage of all
Vessels entered outward from the same Port to the above-
mentioned places.—Ordered.
Sir E. KNATCHBULL presented a petition from the
Freeholderi of certain parishes in the Eastern part of the
county of Sussex, in favour of the Sussex Election Bill.

Sir H. PARNELL moved for an Account of the Bills
and Notes of the Bank of England, in circulation within
the List three years, ending on the 6th April, 1827, die..
tinguishing the weekly issue of the same.
Mr. WODEHOUSE presented a petition from the
Justices assembled at the last Quarter Sessions for the
county of Norfolk, in favour of the principle of the Bill now
in progress through the other House upon the subject of the
Game Laws.

Mr. STUART WORTLEY gave his cordial support to
this petition, and was rejoiced to see that a spirit of con-
viction was now woricin its way through the country, that
the-present Game Laws ought no longer to be suffered to
continue in their existing state. The proof that this con-
viction was well-founded was unfortunately furnished in
too great abundance in the records of our assizes and ses-
sions ; and from the evidence of these, he was prepared to
say that those who expected to be able to continue the pre-
sentesystem much longer would be quite unable to do so,
let them use what efforts they might for that purpose.
The petition was ordered to be received and printed.
Mr. WODEHOUSE presented a petition from the
Coroners of Norfolk, praying for an increase of their fees.
Mr. J. RUSSELL presented a petition from the Roman
Catholic inhabitants of Kinsale, praying for Catholic
Emancipation.
Sir 'l'. D. ACLAND presented a petition from the
Coroners of the county of Devon, praying for an increase
of their fees. He observed, that one of these Coroners
had furnished him with a statement, from which it appeared
that his income, for the last year, amounted only to
74/. 18s. sd.

Mr. HUSKISSON presented a petition from the Mayor
and Corporation of Liverpool, against the Alehouse Licensing
Bill.

SUPPLIES.-THE NEW MINISTRY.

Mr. BERRIES moved, that the House resolve itself
into a Committee of Supply.
Sir T. LETHBRIDGE rose from the Opposition Bench :
I hope, he said, the House will excuse me, if I take this op-
portunity of objecting to to the motion of the Hon. Secre-
tary to the Treasury at the present moment, and under

existing cireumstancet. I entertain opinions as to the situa-
tion of his Majesty's Government, and as to the situation of
the country, arising out of the situation of the Government,
which will oblige me, upon many occasions (perhaps too
many, in the judgment of some Hon. Members, for whom
I entertain the highest respect) to resist measures to be
brought forward by the Right Hon. Gentleman now hold-
ing office under the Crown. I think there is nothing
more within the scope of Parliamentary practice, than to
oppose the grant of supplies, whenever it is thought
that those supplies will not be entrusted to safe and
proper hands.—(Hear, hear !)—I do not want prece-
dents for such a course—it is strictly Parliamentary and
Constitutional, whenever objections are felt to the existing
Government. I do not suppose it will be expected of me—
for I do not expect it myself—that I shall be able to make
out a case to justify the stopping of all supplies to the
King's Ministers.—(Hear! and laughter).—l should de-
ceive myself, and, therefore, deceive the House, if I ima-
gined I could already take up so determined a position ;
but I feel it my duty to take this step, and I shall execute
my duty to the Commons of England in my own way. I
shall proceed in my opposition in that manner which seems
to me expedient and justifiable. Certainly, for one, within
the last three or four days, I have felt considerable anxiety
and pain from the course adopted with reference to the
new Administration, by those who formerly sat on this side
of the House. It may be a matter of some difficulty for me
to explain exactly what I mean on this subject—(Cheers and
laughter),—inasmuch particularly as I do not see the Right
Hon. Gentleman the first Minister of the Crown in his seat,
nor the Hon. and Learned Gentleman who has taken his
place on the third bench behind (Mr. Brougham). The
new Ministry have now the great benefit and advantage of
his (Mr: B.'s) support, and he took the most prominent
part of the debate of last night, which, I will undertake to
say, has interested, and will interest, the House and the
country as deeply as any discussion ever heard within these
walls.—(Cheers.)—Their absence may put me to some
little difficulty, and a part of what I had to say will not,
on this account, be forthcoming. I may, nevertheless, give
my reasons why the House ought not to place confidence in
his Majesty's Government, as at, present constituted, by
granting supplies which, under more favourable circum-
stances, would be voted upon credit, in the ordinary course
of business. There still seems some doubt whether the
Administration is even now formed ; rumour says, that it
is only provisionally made up, and it is not easy to come at
the fact. If it be only provisionally completed, I will ven-
ture to say, that it is the most unconstitutional and unpre-
cedented proceeding ever recorded in the annals of the
country. I have not heard that rumour contradicted, and
perhaps no direct question has yet been put from this side
of the House upon the point. if it were put, it might be
treated in the manner in which the question of last night
was treated by the First Minister of the Crown. I was
hurt and shocked to see the manner in which the answer
was given ; but as the Right Hon. Gent. is not present, I
am precluded from saying all I feel upon the subject. I will
take an opportunity of mentioning it when he is pressnt.—
I apprehend that questions may be_put—questions always
have been put, and those who have sat on this side of the
House, in the exercise of their discretion, have not failed,
whenever occasions offered, to subject the King's Govern-
ment to interrogatories. I confess I never heard such lan-
guage as was used last night by the First Minister of the
Crown, held before ; he uttered only a single sentence,
conveying indeed all he intended to convey, but it could
not be heard with satisfaction even by the warmest of the
friends by whom he was surrounded. For one, I may say
that such conduct made an impression upon me not easily
to he forgotten. If, then, the present Government is only
to be provisional, I shall be happy to hear how it is to be
conducted. I shall be happy to hear whether the current
rumours are true er false. I shall be happy to find that
the Calneet is framed e :t is meant to stand, and that I
shall know to what Minister I may have occasion to resort,
as the representative of a large body of the people. If the
Government be not piovisionally appointed, perhaps the
ground for my resistance to the Committee of Supply may
not be so strong ; but if it turns out that places are only
kept for others who have not yet condescended to accept
them, I ask the House what confidence ought to be placed
in a Government so constituted ?—(Hear, hear, hear.)—
If the House feels with me, it will refuse to put large sums
of the public money into the hands of such persons. I cer-
tainly now occupy one of the last positions I ever expected
to find myself in. I never thought I should be called upon
to oppose any Government in the manner in which I am
now by duty required to do. I will do it in spite of all the
taunts--in spite of all the tirade of ridicule—in spite, I
might almost say, of all the load of insult, attempted to be
fastened upon those who manfully discharge theissduty,-e-
-(Cheers.)—For one, I will notbe so put down; forone, I sit
in this House as the Representative of all the Commons of
the United Empire, and I will take every opportunity I
think good and fitting, to express my sentiments in oppo-
sition to the course the Government may take, or be ex-
pected to take.—l cannot account for the extraordinary
combination I saw opposite to me last night. In fact, I ob-
served the Right Hon. Gentleman occupying, as he ought,
the first place, and professing and adhering to one set of
opinions, and behind him a set of individuals giving him
their separate and collective support, who hitherto have
been remarkable for their constant and constitutional op-
position. Great and powerful I admit that support to be,
but in what way the head of the Ministry entitled himself
to it, has never yet been explained. If a Government is
to be composed of such opposite, clashing, and inconsistent
materials, on what ground can it lay claim to the confidence
of the Representatives of the People of England--(Hear,
hear.)—Let me ask if it is not now more than ever desir-
able at this moment, that the Administration eheuld be
composed of men known to agree upon the various grand
and essential questions touching the most vital interests of
the State ? If at any period such a Government were ne-
cessary, it is more peculiarly so at the present juncture,
and yet it is evident that the Members of the present
Cabinet and their adherents have scarcely a single opi-
nion in common. If the Roman Catholics hoped at
any time that emancipation was not very far removed,
and that' the chance es as the greater owing to the re-
cent changes, what must he their confusion and dismay
when they read what has already passed in Parliament
relating to their interests? I suppose they do read in
some way or other the debates of this Hcuse ; people in the
remotest corners of the empire do know all that is said and
done here, and what must the people of Ireland think of
their present abandoned condition ? Year after year they
have been told by the advocates of their claims, and more
than all by the Right Hon. Gentleman himself, that the
safety of the Empire was in danger, if concession were not
instantly made. In the very last debate on the question,
this argument was used even by some Hon. Friends of mine
in the most impressive tone, and in a manner that could
not be misunderstood. Yet now mark the contrasted de-
-1 clarations from the first Minister of the Crown, and from
those who, though not in office, volunteer their assistance.
They give their support on the pretence that they hope
thereby that the Catholic Question will be ultimately car-
ried ; but the course of the debates within the last few
nights shews that they can hope so no longer. No man
can doubt that it is not to be brought forward by the Go-
vernment as a Cabinet question ; and although in the Cabi-
net there is such an overwhelming majority in favour of
the Catholic Question, and although the topic is one of
such vital and momentous importance to the very existence
of Ireland, it is never to be brought forward either
by the Right Honourable Gentleman, his coadjutors
in office, or his supporters out of office—(Hear, hear.)—
Upon this subject we have seen differences between indi-
viduals illustrious for their rank and character; those who
opposed the Catholic Claims have retired, and those who
supported them have retained their places. The Right Hon.
' Gentleman was thus placed in rather an awkward predi-
cament, and he was obliged to look about for assistance in
various quarters. He had resorted to those who
contended that concession ought to be made as the condi--
tion of their taking office; and if they have taken office,
and are nevertheless determined not to agitate or endeavour
to carry the Question, I say they are deceiving and impos-
ing upon the party which has reposed confidence in them.
What chance then, can there be of pacification in Ireland?
Dissentions, they say, are only to be allayed by granting
Emancipation, yet Emancipation is not to be granted or
even discussed, and Ireland of course, according to their
own sheaving, cannot be pacified. Discontent in Ireland
must be increased by this attempt to delude the people, a
delsision too shallow not to be discovered. There is now no
more chance of carrying the Catholic Question than
there was before the recent change in Administration.
That is the great leading point to which the House
must look as the test of sincerity. Before the House
can place confidence in the new Ministry, it ought to
see that it is composed of such materials as are accord-
ant and likely to endure. All that has been said about the
Catholic Claims now looks only like some deep artifice to
conceal matters that will not hear the light. We
have been told, in some quarters, that, if this discordant
union had not been attempted, the Crown would have
been left unsupported, without the means of procuring
servants to fill the vacant offices ; but, in another place the
mist has been cleared away, and truth has shone forth in
all her purity and splendour. Statements reflecting the
highest honour upon them have been made by the most
distinguished individuals ; and they have shewn that they,
at least, are implicated in no charge. One illustrious no-
bleman, the Duke of Wellington, has come out of the in-
vestigation triumphantly for himself, and disgracefully for
those who would cast upon him unmerited imputations. I

trust the noble person to whom I allude, and who is the
object of such general veneration and admiration, will soon
be enabled to resume that station and those functions for
which he is so peculiarly qualified, under an Administra-
tion which can be regarded with confidence. Men ought
to be tried by their public principles. I know, indeed, that
his Majesty is entitled to call for the services of any one he
pleases : but the Constitution has thrown a dilemma upon
his Majesty, when be is obliged, in some cases, to choose
those for his Ministers of whose principles he may be
doubtful. How can his Majesty know what may be
the principles of the present Administration, when he
finds that they are supported by such gentlemen as
lately sat on this side, without any satisfactory—
(The Honourable Baronet was here interrupted by peals of
laughter from all parts of the House, caused by the en-
trance of Mr. Brougha:o. The laughter continued for
some minutes after the Lion. and Learned Gentleman had
taken his place. Silence having been at length restored,
the Hon. Baronet resumed thus)—l was not aware, at
first, of the cause of all this merriment; I now find, how-
ever,. that it was caused by the entrance of a very clever
actor, but one not at all new in this House, though quite
new in his present place.—( A laugh.)—My Honourable
and Learned Friend—l trust I may call him so, for, out of
the House, at least, we are friends—is a man of admitted
ability ; there is no man whose talents I deprecate more—
(A laugh)—for he has got a way of turning every thing
into ridicule beyond any thing I have ever met.---(A loud
laugh.)—l defy the House to find upon paper his equal, or
to name his felled'.—(Loud laughter. )—With respect to
myself, I shall say I will vote according to my conscience ;
I will go farther, and say, if there is one thing more than
another I detest, it is speaking in this House.—(Roars of
laughter.) I will go still farther, and say—[notwithstand-
ing all the splendid ridicule of the Hon. and• Learned Gen-
tleman—l am not sure I ever felt any of it—(A laugh)-1
have never felt it from any body—(Continued laughter)—
but I have heard it applied to others pretty lustily, and I
have pitied them.—(Cheers and laughter.)—This may
create a laugh ; but the person must know very little of
his duty to himself or his country, if such treatment does
not spur him on rather than deter from his course.]—l
will say no more than that, as long as I shall be able to
stem a torrent which carries with it so much evil, mis-
chief, and ultimate destruction to the country—(Cheers
and laughter)—even if I shall be only feebly supported I
will do it—if unsupported I will do it. Feeble support !
There will be support of a very different kind. There
will be others found, and those benches will be very
shortly filled with them, who possess consistency, talent,
and that species of ability which will be answerable
to the occasion. I have now, I believe, said as much
as I ought—(A laugh)—more than I intended. But,
although I have not the good fortune to see the first Mini-
ster of the Crown in his place, there will be many oppor-
tunities of debating and talking over the grievances of our
present situation.—(Hear, and a laugh.)—l shall, there-
fore, conclude, by saying, that I see no occasion for fixing
another day for going into the Committee of Supply, for it
is impossible, while the Governuaent shall continue con-
atituted as at present, that the House can think of voting
any supplies ; and if not, where is the use of fixing a day?
One word respecting that which was called, the other night,
factious_opposition—l will candidly admit, that the motion
made by the Hon. Member (Mr. Dawson), last night, was
not one that I would make, (Hear, hear,) and the best
proof of my sincerity in this declaration is, that I did not
support it.—(Hear.)—l did, however, give a few cheers.
(Roars of laughter. )—I admit, that I am one of the factious,
one of those prepared to oppose the Right Hon. Gentleman's
new Government. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Mr.
Brougham) gays, he will not accept of office, but he has no
righeto refuse giving the benefit of his talents to his country.
(Hear.)—In return for this declaration, I hope the
Honourable and Learned Gentleman will sit quiet to-
night, and allow all I have said to have its full weight.—
(A loud laugh.)—l think now, after the speech I
have made, I may be content to sit quiet, and to have
every word I have "said, attended to.—(Renewed
laughter. )—I spoke of an Administration—there is no Admi-
nistration yet formed, for there are people outside the door
waiting to come in—(A laugh)—and that is such a state of
things, as renders it impossible for me to give to the Right
Hon. Gentleman and his friends, that support and that
confidence which I should otherwise have; but, by-the-
bye, I was not inclined to give them much in any case.—
(Continued laughter.)—l admired the statement of the
Hon. Baronet (Sir F. Burdett) last night, but if he at-
tempts to bear down or abandon his principles, I am at
issue with him. I have a great public duty to perform.—
(Loud laughter.)—(lslere the Hon. Baronet highly com-
plimented Sir F. Burdett oa his talents and the indepen-
dence of his principles, contending, however, that the
junction of himself and his friends with the Administra-
tion, looked like an abandonment of their former prin-
ciples.)---The Right Hon. Gentleman whom they have
joined is a rank Tory, who says, he will oppose Parliamen-
tary Reform, and the repeal of the Test Act ; and of
whom there is not a Whig in the country who will not
say, " By —, this is not the man for us."—(Roars of
laughter.)---There is not a man in Parliament better qua-
lified for a leader than the Hon. Baronet—and I have seen
him carry questions in this House which no other *person
could—but I deprecate any bearing down or abandonment
of principle, for if he desert them, the people of England,
when they see five or six fat offices vacant, will say, " Hal-
loo ! What is this for ?"—(Loud laughter.).—l answer—
For him who shall do most. All the great questions of the
Session are hung up—all those which filled the Parlia-
mentary Paper have disappeared, been put off, or struck
out. The people will then naturally ask, " Why, then,
does Parliament continue to sit ?" Because the money is
not voted—and this brings me to the great point with
which I set out.—(A laugh.)—l, for one, will oppose
an Administration which professed to carry great questions
while out of office, and who, when they conic in, do not
mean to have any of those questions agitated. I thank
the House for the attention with which I have been fa-
voured, and hope I shall meet similar indulgence, should I,
on a future occasion, as a plain country gentleman, attempt
to express my opinion.—(The Hon. Baronet concluded by
repeating his determination to oppose the postponement of
the Committee.)

Mr. HUSKISSON—After the very entertaining exhi-
bition with which the Hon. Baronet, who has just sat
down, has favoured the House, I should not have added
one word, had I not perceived that the benches have be-
come more full than when he began—and the only reason
why I speak at all, is to inform those Hon. Gentlemen
who were not present when the question was put, what is
the nature of that question. It isnot a question of a grant
of money—it is not a question of going into a Committee
of Supply.-.:is is not a question of that nature, on which
constitutional opposition has frequently been made to Mi-
nisterial measures—it is merely a question, at the desire of
my Right Hon. Friend at the head of the Treasury, to
postpone, to a future day, the Committee of Supply ; and
which, if carried, would have afforded the Hon. Baronet
an opportunity, at a proper season, to state the reasons of
his opposition, and in a more regular way than that which
be has chosen. [Sir Thomas Lethbridge here said, across
the table, that he would take the same opportunity again if
he pleased. ]—The object of the Hon. Baronet is, no doubt,
to interrupt the supplies; and if he succeed, perhaps, ano-
ther favourite object with him, a dissolution of Parliament,
will also be achieved--for, if Government cannot obtain
the supplies, they must take some other course,.—(Hear.)
—But I am sure it is unnecessary to address one word to
the House to induce its concurrence in the proposed post-
ponement of the Committee of Supply.—(Hear.)—l think
the Hon. Baronet might have chosen a more fit opportu-
nity for delivering that speech which he has been a fort-
night in preparing, and not to have taken this occasion to
entertain the House with a discourse which proved one
thing at least—that the principles of the Hon. Baronet are
much more objectionable than those of the Government
which he has attacked.—(Hear.)—l think the grounds of
opposition taken by the Hon. Baronet are ludicrous one
of them, that an Honourable and Learned Gentleman has
refused office Now, Ido entreat the Hon. and Learned
Member for Winchelsea, if he did intend to have drawn
upon his inexhaustible stores of ridicule (as they have been
described by the Hon. Baronet), that he will refrain from
doing so—for the Hon. and Learned Gentleman himself
w'll see we have had quite enough of the ridiculous al-
ready.—(Loud cheers, and continued laughter.)
Mr. PELHAM supported the course pursued by the
Hon. Baronet.

Mr. WILLIAM PEEL said, that he offered himself with
the greatest deference to the House, but he wished to say
a word as to the reasons which had induced him to retire
from public office. In addition to the reasons which had
induced his Right Hon. Relative, he had no confidence what-
ever in the Right Hon. Gentleman who was at the head of
the present Administration, but his confidence was in those
who had resigned, and who had much fuller heads and
more regular minds than that Right Hon. Gentleman.
When he saw him now surrounded and supported by vi-
sionary theorists, and political economists, and men who
professed what were called the liberal principles of the
day, he could not look, without alarm and apprehension,
on the perils to which the country was exposed. A greater
delusion had never been practised upon the country than
the appointment of this Cabinet, one half of whose Mem-
bers would, in the, space of six weeks, not be in their places.
If other Noble Lords were to come in, why did they not
do so at once? Since the office of Secretary of State for
Foreign Affairs was certainly one of the last to be trifled with
—(Hear, hear.)-4-the great ground of his objection was this

that there was no security for the Proteeiakt stabil&
ment, when the Right Hon. Gentleman had the filling up
of these offices. There was unquestionably a great sacri-
fice of principle on one side or the other. An Hon. Ba-
ronet (Sir G Warrender) had even gone. the length of sa-
crificing his dinner the other day in order to support the
Administration; he did not mean to say that the Hon.
Baronet had actually mentioned dinner, but only alluded
to the time of the evening at which he spoke. He knew
his own imperfection of language, and to the charge of
not being a distinguished public speaker he pleaded guilty;
but he must at the same time say, that if he had been ex-
tremely greedy of office, he might have been in office much
sooner than he was.

Sir G. WARRENDER observed, that he did not
mean to abandon his dinners for the sake of the present
Administration, but intended to continue his dinners and
all his social amusements; and hoped, that l►e and the
Hon. Gentleman who spoke last would, when this Session
was over, again meet at their dinners and other social
amusements.—(A laugh.)
Lord CASTLEREAGH contended; that he was inde-
pendent—and independent in a much higher degree than
those who had sat on the Opposition Benches before. He
could not reconcile it to the duty he owed his constituents
to give the present Administration any support whatever,
though on one question they would have no cause to doubt
his cordial co-operation. He hoped, however, that that
question would be put on its own proper footing, and not
tampered with.—(Hear.)—He would not consent that the
interests of Ireland should be subservient to any private
feelings or party views.—(Cheers.)—lt was the duty of
Government to let her know what she was to have, and
hew they meant to treat her. He bad been only a short
time in that House, but he confessed that the things he
saw passing made him tremble for the safety of the State
—(Cheers.) There might be some members who knew
more of the detail and management, and trickery that was
going on.—(Hear, hear.) But he had yet to learn on
what foundation the Government of this country stood at
the present moment.—(Cheers.) What, he asked, did
his Majesty's Ministers mean to do? How would they
treat the question of Parliamentary Reform? He bore
witness, cheerfully, to the great talents of the Right Hon.
Gentleman at the head of the Treasury, and to his since-
rity in the advocacy of the Catholic Claims, and much he
honoured that sincerity, being thebest part ofthe Right Hon.
Gentleman's political career ; but he trembled for the
Right Hon. Gentleman's perilous situation. He was on
the brink of an abyss, and if he fell, malediction would
be on his head.—(Hear, }fear.) Till he (Lord Castle-
reagh) understood in what position the Government was
placed, he must hold his support from it. He did so from
no hostile feeling, but he conceived that he should not
otherwise do his duty as au independent Member, which
he was ; for he had been returned without any pledge,
either to the late, or the present administration. He he-
sitated not to avow that he would pursue a course of un-
compromising and unqualified opposition to the tesselated
pavement of the Treasury Bench.—(Hear, hear.)
The motion was then agreed to. The other Orders of
the Day were disposed of, and the House adjourned.