The Sun.
London, England, 1842-04-19 00:00:00

• IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.
HOUSE OF LORDS, April 18.
-.The LORD CHANCELLOIL took his seat on the Wooslack
sliortly before Five o'clock.

FACTORY INSPECTION.
The Earl of RIPON laid on the table the last flalf-yetrly
Report of the Inspectors of Factories.
RATING OF STOCK IN TRADE.

Lord PORTMAN —;vis1;;(1 to inquire of the Noble
Duke opposite . (Wellington), whether it was the in-
tention of her llia.iesty's Government to renew the
Bill now in force relating to the rating of stock in trade to
parochial assessment ? The present Bill would soon expire, and
there was considerable anxiety to know whethee it was intended
to make a permanent enactment on the subject.
The Duke of WELLINGTON said, it Has the intention of
his Right Hon. Friend at the head of the Government, to in-
trodtice in the other House a temporary Act to continue the
present law, for the purpose of giving time for farming a per-
manent measure.

IRISH SPIRIT DUTIES.

------- _
The Duke of WELLINGTON postponed to Thursday next
the-third reading of' the Irish Spirit Duties Bill, which stood
fixed fur this day.
MIN-LAWS—THE TARIi.T.
- •

The Duke of BUCKINGHAM presented numerous peti-
tions from places in the counties of Kent, Warwick, and Fur-
far,•against the proposed alteration of the Corn-laws.
Several petitions to the same dreet were presented by the
Duke of RUTLAND and Earl STA N HOPE.
The Earl of ZETLAND presented petitions from Selkirk
and other places in Scotland, against the sliding scale, and for
the total repeal of the Corn-laws.
Earl FITZ WILLIAM presented a petition from the shoe-
makers and leather-dressers of Ring's Lynn against the reduc-
tion of the duty tar foreign boots, shoes, and curried leather;
also petitions from Guisborough, Leeds, Huddersfield, and
other places in the county of York, against the income tax and
all Corn-laws. _

Lord BROUGHAINI presented petitions from Arbroath, in
the county of Forfar, and from St. Mary's, Newington, in the
borough of Lambeth, against the Income-tax ; and a petition
fr m the farmers of Northumberland, against all Corn-laws.
The House %vent into Committee, and the Indemnity Bill
passed through.—The House then resumed.
CORN IMPORTATION BILL.
The Earl of RIPON rose and said, although the matter to
which their Lordships' attention was about to be called, had be-
come, from not unfrequent discussions, familiar to their Lord-
ship!, and though the Bill, the seemed reading of which
he was about to recommend to their Lordships' attention
did not proceed on any new principle, but was rather
a modification of the existing law, nevertheless, he felt that
he should not adequately discaarge the duty which evolved
upon him, if, before proceeding to explain to their Lordships,
the provisions of that Bill, and the reasons which had induced
her Majesty's Government to propose it for the adoption of
Parliament, he did not make some observations of a
more general nature with respect to this question. He
felt this question to be, and he always had felt it to be, infinitely
the. most important subject with which the Legislature could be
called upon to deal. It related to a subject in which were
involved the prosperity, the contentment, and the safety of the
State ; for the question really was the subsistence, the food of
the people ; and what was the best mode by which that essen-
tial object could be secured, and by which there could be
obtained for the public at large an adequate, •a steady
supply, of the first necessaries of life, at a reasonable and mode-
rate. rate. There were, he knew, many other most important
interests connected with this subject—the interests of agricul-
ture, the interests of commerce, the interests of manufactures,
of the capitalists engaged in one or other branch of industry,
and of those by whose labours those capitalists were enabled to
receive the advantage from the expenditure of that capital. He
knew that those interests were most important in the consider-
ation of this question ; but still it appeared to him that the
esss nee of this question was, by what means of legislation the
people could be best supplied. In the point of view in which he
looked at the question it was one of the most paramount, but
at the same time one of the most difficult, that could come before
them. Great authorities differed as to the mode in which that
object could be obtained ; men of the most extensive
iteormatione of the wisest experience, of the most
unquestionable probity and independence, had differed
fundamentally as to the mode in which the Legis-
lature ouslit to promote that object. But it unfor-
tunitely happened that from the nature of the case, it
was so mixed up with strong feelings, and with an
eager sense of interest. on tee part of those whose
interests, philosophically speaking, were identified—but of what
identification it was impcosible to impress the parties themselves—
that it was scarcely possible to discuss the question without. giving
rise to feeliegs which rendered a satisfactory discussion impossible.
It Was, therefo:e, their duty to discuss the question calmly ;
and he hoped their Lordships would call him to a sense of his
duty if he departed from that spirit. There were two
gre t antagonist principles involved in the question—one
was, that all restriction upon the importation of foreign corn
should be removed ; the other was, that importation should
be regulated by the Legislature. The first proposition was on
the face of it extremely plansible—it was a kind, considerate, and
charitable proposition, and there seemed something gratifying
in being told that if the supply in their own country was short,
the whole world was open to them to make good that supply.
But he confessed he felt that the more he lookd at the state of
those countries from ,whence those supplies could be obtained,
the more ho was convinced that the proposition was
fallacious in itself; and was likely to lead to disappoint-
ment. if that principle was adopted, they would be
compelled to look to other countries for supply, not
when they wanted it on certain occasions, but as a principle,
and he thought he wou'd he able to show that they would
incur the greatest risk ant danger in adopting it. It was
perfectly obvious that, in a country like this, where from
a thousand considerations not necessary to detail, the cost of
production was higher, and must be higher for almost any ar-
ticle as compared with other countries where the causes did not
exist, it was, quite clear that this great increase in the
amount of produce" in this country, which had enabled
tie to stand so well against the deu.a.tols of the
increasing population, eould never have taken place unless
the capital invested in agriculture were encouraged by adequate
rernunera' ion to continua in the same line of employment. Ap-
plying this principle, then, to the protection of corn, it was
clear that if you deiermined to admit at al tirseas, and under all
circumstances, foreign corn without ref...mice to prices,
or to the harvest at home, a great deal of the capital now in.
vested in the raising of food must be withdrawn, for the
prise being reduced be:ow the remunerating point, the
British farmer must seek other fields for his money and in-
genuity, much land would be thrown out of cultivation, and
the amount of the home supply of corn would be very greatly
diminished—whether it would be the higher quality or the
lower quality of soils that would be thrown out of
cultivation, he would not now stop to inquire, for each
result had been predicted. The fact that our produce
would be very greatly diminished, and our lands thrown out of
cultivation to a very considerable extent, through the inunda-
tion of foreign corn, could not be denied, and that was osough
for his arguments. We already depended on foreign countries
for; occasional supplies. The question was, whether
we should also depend for the much greater and
continual supplies which, under a change of the sys-
tem, would be imperatively necessary. Let it be sup-
posed that our own produce be reduced 10 per cent. Now
where were we to look for those great supplies in addition to what
we already got from foreign countries? The late information
laid before Parliament sleeved that the only countries we could
look to were the small territories of Denmark and Mecklen-
burg. We could not rely on any other country in Europe.
It was stated distinctly, drat notwithstanding the encourae'e-
ment that might be given by the repeal of the Corn-laws, the
utmost amount upon which they could calculate would be
2,220,600 quarters of wheat. But if they looked to the paper
which he held in Ins hand, they would find that from
Palermo, to which a large item was assigned, none at
all was exported into this country. Warsaw was men-
tioned twice in the same paper. The utmost, then, that
they could expect to obtain would not exceed 1,500,000
quarters annually. During the last thirteen years the total
amount imported into this country for consumption had been
at the rate of one miltion quarters per annum ; but if we re-
duced our own produce two millions and a half more we would
have no source in Europe from which to derive a suffi-
cient supply. They were told that Russia could not
extend its production. He knew that there were defects in
the list to which he referred, but that (lid not change his ar-
gument. His of ject was to show that the hopes of one party
were exaggerated, and could not be realised; but at the same
time he admitted that the fears of the other party were also
exaggerated. He wished to dwell on this part of the subject,
because he thought that the abolition of the protective scale
of ditties would not give the permanent and abundant
supply of corn that was proposed. From Russia, they were
told in the document to which he had referred, they could not
derive greater supplies than they did at present, and
yet Ilus,ia was one of the greatest exporting countries
in Europe. It was asked in that document whether,
if there was an increased demand for foreign corn in
England, the corn produced in some of the districts
could without much difficulty, and in a short time, be
increased ? The answer was, No. The same qu stion and
reply was given respecting Riga and Odessa. It would be impos-
sible then to rely upon Russia in cases of deficiency. Russia could,
indeed, send enough into this country to interfere with mate-
rially, and prejudice out agricultural producers; but that
was a very different thing from sending a great quantity
sufficient to supply the great demand of such a country as this.
A much smaller qu entity might do a great mischief in discou-
eagmg agriculture, although a large quantity, if required in
consequence of that discouragement, could not be
obtained: At Dantzic there would be-, no increase.
At Kcsnigsberg, none. 'At Stettin, none. At Memel, there
might be an increase of one-fourth. The quantity at present
was :e9OO quarters ; and an increase of one-fourth upon that
Would nut go far to fill up the deficiency that
would be occasioned by a diminution of the home
production. At Elsinore, from which the whole of
the produce of the Danish dominions was exported,
there, would he an increase. But if their Lord-
ships would examine the whole of the papers,
they would find that the increase would amount to
-nothing at all towards supplying the deficiency. At Hamburgh
'it was doubtful whether or not there would be an Increase.
But as that port was supplied chiefly from the Prussian domi-
nions, of which he had already stated from the report, it would be
unnecessary' to go over the same ground again. There was no
doubt that in the course of years there might be an increase
by the application of additional capital, which however would
prevent the exportation of the produce at a cheap
price. He must advert to Russia, from which, undoubtedly,
the greatest quantity would be derived. But Russia her-
seise although she at times exported considerable quan-
tities, Set, at other times, suffered grievously from
famine. During the last nine years there were six years of i
bad harvest, amounting in some years to positive famine, so
much so, that the Emperor found it necessary to suspend
the duty on the importation of foreign corn, which was
13s. 4tl. per quarter on wheat, and Bs. og. rye. All the other
States cf Europe, with the exception of Denmark and Prussia,
unposed duties on imported corn, and yet it was said
that in this country it was an unchristian shame
10 impose a tax upon food which prevented our manufacturers
fro cetneting with foreigners. But although Pius:ia,
which e as p
an exportin g country, Lad no t.lx on the ins-
of foreign sore, yet there was a tax
ore corn in the towns containing a Population of two millions,
of
which the price of bread was rendered dearer at times
.than in E..gland," as was actually the case in Danizic
at this moment. Much had been said of the rent
h g
alo nexhaustible supply which might be derived. But even
in Philadelphia, which had been the greatest market
since 1793,
the price of bread has frequently been higher than in London ;
awl if they added to that the necessary charge for bringing it
to this country, they would find that in no less titan 12 out of
the 2e- years, the price there would be higher than here.—('the
Noble Lord here referred to seine papers published in
ice United States to prove that the consumption in that coun-
try always equalled, and had equaled f,c the last 50 years,
the production. ) This would go to show that from the United
States we could not expect those great supplies that those
who were In favour of no restriction on corn lead them to
expect ; and any idea of supplying any deficiency from thence
would lead to disappointment. If this were true, the system
would go towards destroying existing contracts in this country,
and it would be incurring a risk which it would be
little short of insanity to attempt. The inference that we
must draw then was, that it was much wiser and safer to
rely essentially upon our own produce; and to ensure that
reliance, their ought to give protection to that pi educe.—
(Hear.) Then came the question. tt What should be the I
nature and extent of that protection?" It was ebvious that
protection could only effieiently be given by some duty, either •

fixed or fluctuating. lie would not now enter into a compa-
rison between those two anodes of protection, as that
question would be fully raised when the Noble Lord's
amendment should come on. He would proceed now
to discuss the remaining part of the subject, which
was the principle of protection by a fluctuating duty
and then to explain to their Lordships the nature of the Bill.
With respect to this duty, which fluctuated in an inverse ratio
to the price, whatever objection might be made to it—whatever
defects might be observed in the existing law, and however
desirable it might be to modify the application
of it by a new law, he could not see
anything inconsistent with equity and justice—if they
were to have protection at • all—in adjusting it so that
when it was no longer necessary for the protection of the pro-
ducer, it should diminish so as to give the benefit of it to the
consumer. It was just in principle. It was not an ad valorem
duty. The only question, therefore, was, whether they could so
apply the principle as to prevent those inconveniences and
evils to which it may have beep liable. They had thirty years
experience of the principle, it was said, and its total failure had
been proved; but tie (Lord Ripon) did not see that. He did
not say that it had cot defects, but ,the principle was
good which regulated the admission of foreign corn;
he•thought the principle of the law had worked according to the
views of those who enacted the law. He might be asked why he
cent, then, to alter the law, but he did so because the subject
was one to which the attention of Parliament must be called
from time to time. The interests of commerce were mighty,
and required the intervention of 'Parliament when necessary.
The extent of protection necessary at one time might not be
necessary at another. 'the population of the country was in-
creased by 2,0(10,00(1, who required to be fed, and though the
productions of agriculture had increased also, they did not in-
crease in the same ratio. It was therefore clear that the cir-
cumstances of the country had altered already, and it was
necessary that the wisdom of Parliament should interpose—
(" Hear, hear," from the Opposition)—and not allow itself to
be taken by surprise. It was then supposed that this country
would receive large progressive supplies of wheat from Ire-
land—but this had not turned out to be the case. During the
first six of the last thirteen years, the average supply from
Ireland was 658,000 quarters, a quantity nearly equal to one-
third of the largest import of foreign corn we had had in am
one year; but during the last seven years this quantity fell off
to 427,000 quarters. This was a very material fact. The
cause was, first, that notwithstanding the high prices this coun-
try offered, the growth of wheat was not found to be so profit-
able in Ireland as the growth of other articles ; and next, that
the people of Ireland consumed a great deal of their own wheat
—a most gratifying change from that miserable food on which
they used heretofore to drag oe (Ilear, hear ) The
people of England had but lately abandoned barley and rye-
bread for wheat exclusively. A similar satisfactory process
was now going on in Ireland.--(Hear, hear.) This was a most
important fact, however, for the people of England. It must
be admitted, too, that the present Corn-law had some defects
which required to be corrected. —( Hear, hear. ) One of the
defects of this Bill was, as it struck him—one which no doubt
some of his Noble Friends would think one of its beauties—
namely, that the protection was extravagantly high. What
could be the advantage of a protection that was greater than
necessary ? it would but injure the principle of protection
itself; and if they would attempt to maintain such a protec-
tion, they would go far to destroy the principle itself. He had
reason to know that the general feeling of the country was,
that the present rate of protection was higher than necessary.
It was a defect which it was fit to remedy, and to remedy it
was one of the objects of the present Bill. There was an-
other detail of the present measure that was objectionable—
namely, the rapidity with which the duty varies. Their Lord-
ships alight recollect, that in the year 1827 a Bill was pro-
posed, in which the principle of a graduated scale was
introduced. That Bill had not passed into a law ; it was
unnecessary to state the reasons why it had not passed ?
but their Lordships would remember that the fluctuation was
not by any means so rapid according to that Bill, as according
to the law as it now stood. He (the Earl of Ripon) had the
honeur of proposing that Bill in their Lordships' House. It
was opposed by some Noble Lords, but the House generally
acquiesced in its principles, and in most of its details. The
following year the present law was proposed; which was tie
scribed as a jumping scale, and consequently defective, be-
cause when the prices were rising, the difference between the
several amounts of duties became so great, it gave a temptation
to holders of corn to wait till the duty became low.
Notwithstanding the rising of the price indicated the want of
corn by the community, they were tempted to wait until they
could bring out their corn at a duty of Is. instead of 103. That
was a considerable defect in the existing law, and which the
present measure would correct. In other articles, such as
rye, oats, and barley, there was not the same jumping. With
respect to taking of the averages there were some objections;
but those objections were overstated, and the present pro-
posal would, he trusted, also remove that defect The
average would be taken by a different class of per-
sons from the present, and greater security would
thus be occasioned in the transaction of basiness.
In his opinion the extension of the number of towns for taking
the averages would be a great improvement, as it would ire-
crease the difficulty of fraud, which was attempted only in great
markets, where a great quantity was returned, and the average
could be materially affected by an artificial addition to the
prices. The question had frequently been put to him as to what
was likely to he the effect of taking the prices in these towns in
raising or lowering the averages ? and his invariable answer had
been, that it would have no sensible effect whatever,
unless it could be supposed that the quantity
and prices in' those new towns were immensely
li'gher or immensely lower than in the old towns.
If the 4 ffect of taking them in would be to raise the price by ss.
a quarter, it must be plain that, to bring that about, the prices in
the new towns must exceed them in the old by 10s. a quarter.
That was a state of things that could not be well supposed
exist ; indeed, it was generally admitted that no such result
could be produced, and that there would be a much more exact
amount of the prices of corn throughout the kingdom, without
introducing any principle than could be objected to. Perhaps
he had trespassed too long upon their Lordships in these pre-
liminary observations, but he had not thought that he should
discharge his duty if he had not laid before them
those views which he thought must be taken into the
consideration of the measure which he was about to propose.
The proposition itself was, that instead of a duty increasing to
any amount, not defined, the highest duty on the importation
()I wheat should be 20, , and that duty should be imposed when
the average prices should be under 51, . It was then proposed that
the duty should diminish Is. forever,/ Is. increase in the price,
with two exceptions, in the c..urse of the scale ; that was to say,
when it arrived at 525. and was under 555., the duty should he
the same, 18s., for each. After that, it diminished shilling by
shilling, till the pt ice rose to 665.; and then again it remained as
at 525. It was a difficult thing to say what was to be consi-
dered a remunerating price.—( Laughter from the Opposition.)
Ile was not aware of any better means that there were of as-
certaining what that point was than the information which was
laid within every body's reach, compared with what had been
the average price for the last 13 years. That had been something
more than 585., anti therefore he thought that something be-
tween 565. and 585., or 605., might fairly be considered as that
which should be thought reasonable, and which, in his (Lord
Ripon's) opinion, was necessary for the maintenance of agri-
culture in this country. He believed that the proposition re-
lating to wheat was held to be a fair arrangement, and
had not met with great complaints from either party.
With respect to barley and oats, however, some diference
of opinion had arisen. The principle on which they had
endeavoured to act in fixing the duty on barley and oats,
was to adhere as nearly as possible to the principle of the
existing scale. When wheat was at 50s. the duty was 11., and
when barley was at 253. the duty was I ls., being rather more
than half the duty on wheat. The same principle was pursued
with regard to the rest, which occurred when the price was 275.
arid under 305., when the duty was fixed at 9s. Some persons
thought that barley with the present duty was to enter into a
ruinous competition with foreign barley, but he confessed he saw
no grounds for such apprehension. From the paper which was
laid before Parliament in July last, and which was a summary
of the answer received from her Majesty's Consuls, it ap-
peared that the average price at which barley could be pur-
chased abroad was 19s. 6Aci., and by adding the amount of
freight and other charges, which could not be lest than 4s. or
55., the total amount of the price of barley would be from
245. to 255. ; so that it was clear that the protection given
by the Dill was sufficient up to anything short of the point, and
lie confessed that he hardly heard any reason to induce li m to
think that that was a protection inadequate for its legitimate
purpose. It was less than the protection gi7en to barley at
present; but the whole Bill proceeded upon the principle of
the diminution of price, and therefore lie dad not see how any
person disposed to admit that a reduction ought to take place
could make use of the reduction on barley as any argument.
In the Bill of 1827, though the protection by that Bill was
higher when prices were low at that particular point, the differ-
ence was not very material as compared with the scale now pro-
posed. The Bill proposed that at the price of 31s. to 325., the
dutyishould be Bs. 6d. ; the present 8.11 proposed 7s. 6d., but he
could not see how the difference of eighteenpence should jus-
tify the apprehensions that had been expressed in the country.
No country of Europe t tiered us large supplies of barley but
Denmark. But the power of Increasing her supplies to us
was very limited, for her own population was increasing, as was
also that of the other countries she supplied. We should also
forget that the increased demand for the barley of Denmark, or
of any other country, would greatly raise the pricea in their
own markets.—( Hear, hear.) Looking at other countries, he
found that the barley of the north of Germany was not very
good, while the nature of the soil would prevent in a great
degree an improvement of the quality. In the poorer soils of
Prussia they coul.l not produce good malting barley, if at all,
without an expensive process of improving the land. In the
south of Germany, in Bavaria anti Wirtemburg, the growth
of barley was considerable, but the great quantity of beer
drunk by the population required it all. Moreover, there was
an export duty on barley leaving Bavaria; and the cost of the
voyage down the Neckar, through Holland, and thence hither,
and the apprehensions of our farmers would vanish. In like
manner the apprehensions of the vast influx of foreign oats
were groundless. We could not expect an average supply of
more than t 300,000 qrs. from abroad, whilst the consumption of
this country was 15,0i10,000 quarters. A protection equal
to 235. a quarter ought not to be complained of. Having made
these statements to their Lordships, it only remained for him
to express his confident hope and belief that this measure
would work beneficially for all classes of the community.' Thi.
was the sole object of the framers of the measure. If they
were guilty of deceiving the people, on this or any other sub-
ject, they would commit at the same time as great a political
iniquity, and as a contemptible a piece of folly, as any Minis-
try could be accused of, for the people of this country were too
quick-sighted and intelligent to be deceived. While they kept
a strict eye on the proceedings of the Legislature, they were
able to judge of their principles, arguments, and plans. They
relied with confidence on the hod e, that the proposed measure
ivould be received by their Lordships as a satisfactory adjust-
ment of the question ; and though some on the other side
might dissent from it, yet he believed that the public generally
would think that her Majesty's Government had done their
duty in proposing this measure, and lie trusted that Parlia-
ment would do their duty, by giving effect to it in the shape
of a law.
Earl STANHOPE would not enter into the general ques-
tion of free trade in corn. It was impossible for him, how-
ever, not to advert briefly to some eircumstaaces connested
with the history of the question. It was somewhat singular
that those who originally recommended the present 'swami. e,
and who, after having bestowed great attention upon the
subject, had stated that that measure was most unexception-
able in its mode of operation, should how come forward and
declare that. a very considerable decrease in the protection
conferred by that law ought to be effected. '1 he sliding scale
was no part or parcel of the principle of the Corti-law. It
was only one of the modes—it might be the best or not—of
executing that principle, which principle was protection to the
agriculturist. It was therefore obvious, that a sliding scale
might be so contrived, as to be equally pernicious with a low
timed duty. It had been stated by a Noble Lord opposite
( Viscount Melbourne, as we understood), that the removal
of the protection given by the Corn-laws to the agriculturist
could riot be effected without causing much ill-blood and dis-
turbing society to its foundation. He (Earl Stanhope) be-
lieved that it could not be effected without overthrowing the
whole fabric and structure of society. The Noble Viscount
departed afterwards from those opinions, and when an appeal
teas made to the country, a majority far more triumphant than
the most sanguine Conservative expected, declared itself in fa-
vour of British agriculture.—(Cheers front the Opposition.)
He proposed to show that they were strongly attached to the
agricultural interest. At the elections the Conservative can-
-dictates fought sander the banners of " Protection to Agricul-
tuee.' —(Opposition cheers.) Did the Noble Lords opposite
deny his statement?—Cries of " No, no," and renewed cheer-
ing end laughter.) Promises and pledges were given in pro-