The Sun.
London, England, 1820-06-27 00:00:00

COMMITMENT FOR LIBEL.

The Earl GREY presented a Petition from R. G. Butt,
stating his hissing brought an action against Sir N. Conant
for false imprisonment, in committing him au a charge of libel
before any indictment found or information filed, and that the
Judges had decided the point against him ; he thereto' e com-
plained to the House, mutt prayed relief, &c. His Lordship,
iu presenting the Petition, adverted to woat he had forouerty
said upon the sub:ect of the power assumed, or, he would
lather say, usurped by Magistrates, of judging of the nature
of libel, by cemmitting ou charges for t i:at alleged offence,
without any i,,dictsueot being wan.' or information filed. To
the opinion he then expre sed he still adhered, considering,
as he did, such a piaci:et to be a departure fro:n the ancient
Laws of the Land, and to he contrary to the principles of the
Constitution.

The LORD CHANCELLOR, with reference to the speech
of the :Soho: on the former occasion alluded to, observ-
ed, that it contained arguments highly deserving of attention,
and thoughlie differed with the Noble Earl upon the question
of law, he certainly did nut mean to say that the question
involved in the Pet,tion was not still deserving the serious
attention of thu House.

Lord ERSKINE expressed great respect for his Noble and
Learned Frienn, hut must still (Life' with i.►ni in opinion as
to the law upon this point.
The Petitioh was read, and ordered to he upon the Table.

THE QUEEN.—PETITION FROM HER MAJESTY.
Loin llAcau—Nty Lords, a Petition has been
just put t'.'o my hauds,.which I have tool no time
•to cousioet, but which, under the circumstances
of the case, I deem it my duty to present to your
Lordships. That a Peti;ion from tier Majesty the
Queen sthould have Wien into my hands to pre-
sent, is to he accounted for from the circumstance
of a High Authority in tuit House having declined
to lay it before :tour Lordships. Peti:ion
which I hold in my Osnd is flout bet. Majesty the
Qdt. efl, with reference to certain proceedings rt-
lit cling her which have taken place in this House,
and, regardini, which, her :Majesty is most anxious
that the ,oarges against her may not be deci,ied
upon rn a Secret Committee, Ipit that she msy
have time allowed her to meet those charges, by
sending for witnesses to dfiprove theta ; and that
helots" any further step is taktn by this House,
her Majesty may be braid by her Counsel. Ater
here let we implore your Lordships to psuse, and
reflect opon the course you are put suing—let me
implore your Ltfidships to reflect upon the state
of public opinion, and with teterroce to that, up•
on svtiat may be the effect of the measures you are
adopting. It is utterly impossible, when the
composition of the,Seeret Committee is consider-
td, that any decision come to in that Committee,
especially in the absence of the Queen, or her
Majesty's Counsel, can have any of that weight
which-ought to attach to your Lordships' pro-
cetdingi. it has beeti urged that this Secret
Committee is analogons to a Grand Jury ; but it
is impossible that this analogy can hold, when it
is recollected that some of the Members of this
Committee must necessarily come to it with lull
information as to the details ut all the charges
agitinst the Queen, and with their minds ne-
cessarily made up as to their nature and tendency.
Of that'Committee, consiving only of 15 Lords,
Imo less than tour of the Members are his Majes-
ty's confidential servants, who must have had pre-
viously a thorough knowledge of all the evidence
On which tie charges are founded against the
Qtteen, and who therefore must unavoidably i.ave
prejudged her case. Iwo of the Members art
those Noble Lords, I should rather say, Most
Reverend Prelates, who, one would naturally sup-
pose, would deem it of the greatest- importance
:hat her Majesty should have the benefit to be
derived from the prayers of the people of Eng-
land, and one of those Most Reverend Prelates
must be considered as peculiarly responsible for
that advice under which the name of her Majesty
was not suffered to appear in the Liturgy. 1 will
not, however, .pursue this investigation any fur-
!her, but shall content myself with presenting the
Petition 05 her Majesty, to which it is unnecessary
for me to call the serious attention of your Lord-
ships. I therefote move that the Petition of her
Majesty the Qaeen be now received. His Lord-
ship nand the Petition to the Reading k.
_ _

The LORD CHANCELLOR-.—My Lords, before
;.ottiog the (potion, I Ihiuk it necessary to say
a few word, with reference to what has been said
ny the Noble Lord as to my declining to present
her Majesty's Petition. The fact is, that when
the Petition was handed to me, I had only three
minutes given me to consider whether I would
present it or not, and considering, as I ilid, so
far as 1 bad en opportunity of searching, that
there was no precedent of any similar proceeding
to be found upon the Joornals, your Lordships
will, I trust, give me credit for conscientiously
doubting tvhether 1 ought to lend, to such a pro-
ceeding so unprecedented, the sanction of that
station which 1 have the honout of holding in this
douse, uy res.:ming her Majesty's Peti,ion.
certainly do not mean to say that the Petition of
her Majesty ought not to be received; on the
contrary, in the absence at all precedents, I am of
okillion, that alt: r ule which is spplictl tv all

sons as to the right o►f petitioning this Hot§ e,
ought to be also applicable to the Quinn, and
that therefore her *Majesty's Petition ought to be
received.

The Earl GRBY—My Lords, I think- it neces-
sary to say a few words, in coosequence of what
has fallen from the Noble and Learned Llrd,
with whom 1 cannot agree in his doctrine as to
the rffect of the high situation which he holds in
this
,House upon his duties as an individual Peer.
1 certainly must protest against a doctrine which
so entirely militates against the established rules
of this House and the privileges of its 5/lembets,
and against that equality which subsists amongst
all of them, of whatever rank or station. Un-
doubtedly if the Noble and Learned Lord does any
act sitting on the Woolsack, with regard to the
proceedings of this.' House, .such act of course
intimate-00m the high authority with which he
is invested ; but evre-a tse Nob:e Lord quits" the
Woolsack to address the House, hr is rubject to
the same duties and possesses precisely the same
privileges .s any other Peer in this House. It
is therefore that 1 cannot agree with the Noble
and Learned Lord in the doctrine which he has
laid down ; nor can I at all understand why toe.
high station which the Noble and Learned Lot d
fills in this House should have prevented him, as
an individual Peer, from presentiug the Petition,
though 1 am perfectly rearty to do justice to the
motives by which the Noble and Learned Lord
has been actuated.

The LORD CHANCRLLOR—If the House will
point out to me the duty which, in the station I
have the honour to fill, I ought to execute, I shall
be most h.,ppy to comply with their directions ;
but, in the ebsence of any rule or precedent to
guide me, I may surely be allowed conscientiously
to douht as to the course I ought to putsile I had
no ether motive in this case than to my do duty;
ter, with regard to the Queen, I 'oeg leave most
oistitict!y to state, 'hat 1 will not consent to
abate one particle of he established principle of
the lass of England, that every individual accused
shall tie :teemed to be innocent until proved to
be guil:y. But still may be allowed •to doubt
sto the course of proceeding. I refused to com-
mileicate to this house a letter front tier
jesty, because I did not think myself justified in-
doing so by any precedent or analogy. Watt re-
gard to her,Mejesty'sPetitioo, I doubted whether
would be fi•ting for me to present it ; but int-
quest itthably the Queen as a subject must have a
right, in some way, of bringing her case before
the house, anti therefore it appears to me that
her Majesty's Petition ought to be received.
Lord HOLIAND-1 rout entirely- disagree, my
Lnrils,4illi the doctrine of the Noble and Learned
Lot d, es to the effete of the nigh station which
;:e bolds in this House upon his duties or privi
leges as an individual Peer; nor can I. conceive
any principle more subversive of the rules and
orders of this House, tan that of the supposed
influen, e of any high station upon the sets of the
person holding that station in his capacity as a
Peer. The Noble and Learned Lord mip.,,ht un-
doubtedly, as a Peer et this House, have pre-
sented this or any other Petition in the same Ulan-
oiler as any other Peer, without any reference
whatever to his duties on the Woolsack. The
Noble and Learned Lord'undoubtedly acted (ria
rec!ly in dectinoe; to present to this Ilouse a let-
' ter from the Queen, because that would have
been an act emanating from his station upon the
Woolsack, and consequently would have been an
act of the House. But I protest most decidedly
against the doctrine, that every -.et done by any
Noble and Learned Lord, wl4) tills the high sta-
tion upon your Lordships' Woolsack, should be
considered as an act of the House, thongh only
• done by such Noble and Learned Lord iu his ca-
pacity of an individual Peer. Such a principle
would he entirely subversive of that 'equality
amongst the Members of this Home-, which is
our great security for freedom of debate.
The Earl of LIVERPOOL.--I do not wish, my
Lords, to prolong this conversation, but I must
say a few words in consequence of the remarks
which have been made upon the conduct of my
Noble and Learned Friend. It can never be at-
tempted to be established that every Peer of this
House is bound to present any Petition that is
handed to him, because, without menniug any
analogy to the present case but mere general
argument, it might happen that a Petition might
be handed to a Peer which might be directed
against his nearest and dearest connections ; it'
can never surely be maintained that a Peer
so applied to is bound to present that Peti-
tion ; he may justly consider it as only in-
tended :o hurt his feelings,. and he is justified
in declining to present it. With regard to this
Petition of her Majesty, 1 felt, on application
being made to myself, I felt that as one of his
Majesty's coefidential servants I was riot the per-
son that ought to be called upon to present it,
and my Noble anti Learned Friend, being also a
Minister, was equally justified in refusing. It
certainly, bovVever, is not my intention to op-
pose the reception of the Queen's Petition, be-
cause, in the absence of all precedent, I am-satis-
fied that her Majesty is at all events equally entitled
with the lowest of the King's subjects to petition
this House, end upon that principle, therefore, 1
mutt support the receiving of. her Majesty's Pe-
tition.

The Marquess of 1./kr:snow:sr—l agree so far,
my Lords, with the Noble Ell who has just sat
down, that undoubtedly every Peer in this House
i 3 at liberty, in the exercise of a sound discretion,
to say whether or not he will prevent any
Peti,iou that is handed to him, and his decision
so taken ought to be subject to no appeal,
as to the opinion of any other Noble Lords
But it is altogether a dittereut question, when
4.he Noble and Leaned Lord on the WYool•

sack states tr. 4 a ground Ica ro. p eNvo int;
a Petition. a consideration derived from the
ant hiaity of hi. high. station; and I at:ree
with my Noble Friend, the Noble Baron, that
there is and ought to be a clear disti!iction be•
tween the acts of the Noble and Learntql Lord as
the Speaker of this House, and his acts as an in-
dividual Peer. In the House of Connhons, where
the Speaker is elected by the House, his acts must,
from his situation, be neeesarily considered #s
he acts of the House; but .here, where the
Speaker is appointed by the Crown, it is of great
importance that a clear distinction shosi;,i be
drawn ht tweeo the acts of she Noble Lotd (who-
ever he may be) on the Woolsack, as the Speaker
of this House, and his acts done in his capacity
of an individual Peer, it} which he is subject to
the same duties, mot enjoys precisely the same •
privileges as the other Peers of this House.

The LORD CHANCPLLOR---My Lords, I
wish
most distinctly to disclajua all persondi motives.---
I have no ivisi; but to dh my duty, and iu what-
ever way that duty is pointed out to me by your
Lordships. 1 admit the doctrine, that on my
(pitting the Woo:sack 1 act as an individual Peer
of this House; but I have a duty to perform not
only as a Peer, but to the Peerage—to take care
that nos sting is introdpced into this House incon-
sistent with its forms and usages. The Noble
Earl may smile, but I r)o not mean to be incon-
twetent. I know that I have been suhje cted to
abuse ; I do not mean abuse in its vulgar sense,
but to something like it, as fAr as one can expect
it in this I-louse, to objections :int., remarks re-
specting my conduct ; and had I r esenteel ;his
Petition, 1 shookd prob6bly have hcen arraigned
by some Noble Lords for not paying sufficient
attention to the forms and usages of ;lee House.

The Earl GREY—My Lords, I wish-most (lift:
tinctly to disclaim imputing any personal motives
to the Noble and Learned Lord. My only object
was, to protest against the doctrine of the it).
fluence of the high siatiun of the Noble and
Learned Lord over tiis acts, when acting merely
in the capacity of a Peer of this House.
Lord HOLLAND—I also, my Lords, am desirous
of disclaiming the imputation of any personal mo-
tives to the Noble and Learned Lord ; my only
object being, in common with my Noble Friend,
to get rid of the pernicious doctrine of the in-
fluence of high station upon the conduct of an
individual Peer of this House.

Lord ERSKINE—My Lords, as we Are all agreed
hat her Majesty's Petition may he now read, the
conversation is ended ; but it has been important,
because 'be rules and orders of the House utt
every subject connected with the rights of the
subject, are of great value It. has gken me prat
pleasure to observe, amidst all the differences of
opinion, thet there has been but one est-fires:4nm
of kindness and respect towards my Noble an 4
Learned Friend on the Woolsack. He complains,
neverthdess, how often he is teased anti troubled
on the forms of the House, which every imam
in his station must necessarily he; for myself I
can only lament that I was delivered from such
troubles so soon. •

'fh, Petition of Her Majesty was then received
and read by the Reading Cletk at the Table, as
tollows

" To THE LORDS SPIRITUAL AND TEMPORAL IN PARLIANIENV

ASSEMBLED.

" CAROLINE R.
" The Queen having been informed that proceedings ar•
about to he instituted against her in the House of Lords,
feels it necessary to approach your Lordships as a Petitioner
and a Fellow-subject. She is advised that, according to tlio
forms of your Lordship? House, no other mode of communi.,
cation is permitted.

" Now, as at all times, she declares her perfect readiness to
meet every charge affecting her honour; and she challenges
the most complete investigation of tier conduct. But she
protests in the fist place against any secret inquiry; and
the House of Lords should notwithstanding persist in a pro-
ceeding so contrary to every principle of justice and of law,
she must in the next place declare, that even from such ant
unconstitutional course she can have nothing to apprehend,
unless it he instituted before the arrival of those witnesses
whom she will summon immediately to expose she whole oli
the machinations against her. She is anxious that there
should now be no delay whatever in finishing the inquiry;
and none shall be occasioned by her Majesty. But the Queen.
cannot suppose that the House of Lords will commit so cry+
ing an injustice as to authorise a secret examination of her
conduct in the absence of herself and her Counsel, while her
defence must obviously rest upon evidence which f,,,r some ir

weeks cannot reach this country, The instant that it arrives
she will intreat the House of tprds to proceed' in any way
they may think consistent with the ends of justice ; but in,
.the mean time, and before the first step is taken, her Majesty
desires_ to be heard by her Counsel at your Lordships' Bar
this day upon the subject matter of the Petition!'

Lord DACRE said a few words in support of the
prayer oi the Petition, and then moved that her
Majesty's Counsel be called to the bar.
The motion was agreed to, and her Majesty's
Counsel were accordingly called. A pause of
some minuia9 ensued, while the messengers went
to inform Mr. Bionghatri and Mr. Derimati !bat
their Lordships desired their atiendanec.

COUNSEL IN SUPPORT OF THE QUEEN'S PETITION.

The two Ledined Genlemen, accompanied by
Mr. IVILLIAms, then appeared at the bar. The
Petition was again read.
Mr. BROUGHAM then said, he had the honour' of appear-
ing as Counsel for her Majesty the Queen ; he felt deeply
sensible how inadequate he was to the task assigned to him.
The object of his Illustrious Client was a short delay before
their Lords!!ips should commence their Investigation. This
wish arose from no personal consideration wilate,er, nor
from any objection to an immediate and spctrdy Inquiry ott
her part, but it was wit!) a view and boy-, of Jl;3reviating the
ulterior krogevtlinds. For litiself, petsunaltb she courted

inresti;:ation, becattte She 'knew lienelf to be guiltless, anti
their Lordships to be just,• and on this ground she felt that
their Lordships were incapable of refusing the prayer of the
Petition. His Majesty had thought proper to call the imme-
dtate attention of thr House, and had communicated for a
secret perusal papers in a sealed bag,said to relate to part of.
the conduct of her Majesty while rekiding abroad. Whattsort
of a case was meant to be founded on those—what tools they
were who lent t Isemsef ves to the work of collecting the sin-
formation—the supposed odious matter contained, in,thr.bag,,
by whom or through whose agency that collection S made,

it was not for hi►n to_ conjecture or expatiate upon : it was
enough for him to know that whatever was in the Bag only
referred to sometbing.ihme or falsely' alleged to be done by
bet Majesty while abroad-,-to know that what was alleged
con!d have only'happened while her Majesty was abroad,:
and even beyond the Alps; at such a distance from the
tribunal•by which she was to be tried, it was physically in►-

possib"e to obtain. the attendance of,the witnesses neees-
saiy for her Majesty's defence: Fer the purpose of pro.
curing these she asked but fur a little period, only five or

six weeks, the shortest interval possible for the purpose.--L
It was not fur: the ordinary r. urpuse of delay the interval was

solicited, her conscious innocence precluded the necessity,

of all SUCK cptisideratintis; but the more vile the calumnies,

the more base the collectors of the matter which wax sent

over here, the snore necessary it was for her ,Majesty to hare
her w•ituesses and evidence, in order to rebut, to confound

uthose witnesses, to oCerwhelm them. nit(' the irresistible
power of troth and intiocenee ! He 'Allen proceeded ; and
contrasted the general mural character of foreign witnesses,

when put in competition with English evidence, and pointed
out the facility with which those of the former description
way be bribed, ,persuaded, or coerced to hold " lauguagp
different from that of truth "on such an occasion, as con-
siderations of the tiisadvaniage ‘‘hich his Illustrious

Client. would,. he said, bait: to contend with in such re-
spects; neither had her Majesty the advantages conferred
by power or patronage, or those processes for compelling the
attendance of witnesses which she would enjoy if the un-
fotinded charges were attempted to be borne out by native
evidence, lie again adverted to the disadvantakes of the
distance whence those witnesses were to lie brought ; but

meagre all these fearful odds against her, the pride and
buoyant spirit of consciops innocence would support her
against every thing. With respect to the description and
character of the witnesses to be brought forward some time
would be necessary for acquii ing a-I;ciowledge, as from what
be had already learned of the characters of some, he was a
little anxious to know something of the others, and the disad-

aiitag,es which would result from the circonistauces of those
witnesses Were not 3 little. Were they all natives how com-
paratively easy would be his task : of those of whom he had
some means of learning any thing, one individual was
charged with stealing 404 Napoleons; whereas, in those
which would he brought forward in the defence, there was
no Italian Spy, no German Baron, but on the contrary, an
OlAcer %,,ho had bled in,the service of his Country. 'He had,
therefore, to put it not only to the common sense of feeling,
but to the justice of the House, if the required interval was
either unreasonable or unjust ? ‘Vere it not for such uoavoid-

able disadvantages as those, they would not ask for thy delay

of t %Ingle hour in the commencement of the proceedings
He expatiated on the great disadvantages which would,resutt
from any partial reports
.upon the case going fbrth, before
her Majesty bad the opportunity of offering defensive evi-
dence; and he again argued that the short required delay in
the first instance would eventually save time, by precluding

the necessity of any ulterior delay, and by enabling the In-

vestigation to. go on regularly from its columencement.to its

termination.
Mr. DENMAN then proceeded to- address their Lordships.
He observed, that after the very able speech which they had
hea!rd Irons his Learned Friend, he should, perhaps, hest
consult the interests of their Illustrious Client by abstaioneg
(runs troubling their Lordships on the subject. However,
be felt it necessary to make one observation, as it had fallen.
to him to bring down the Petition which had that day been
received from her Majesty. He had thought it not at variance
with the forms of that House for the Noble and Learned
Lord to he'the medium of introducing that Petition; and as
be was not aware that he was likely to refuse from any per-
sonal motives, he had applied to him in the first instance,
not apprehending, that inn a proceeding of this kind, any dif-
ficulty could arise any where.—However, the Petition had
boon received; but he might observe, that as all the subjects
of the realm bad a right to have their petitions presented
to that House, it was not for him to search out difficulties, but
fur those who felt them to explain their nature to their Lord-
ships. These things were passed, and their Lordships had
now to- tuin their attention to the more serious part of the
business; and here the principal difficulty be bad to contend
with, was the anomaly of those proceedings which had now
commenced. He might say be was contending with
Shadows and clouds, for he could not see where the next
step would lead them, or what would he their mode of pro-
ceeding. He might venture to say, that however high the
authority to which those proceedings owed their commence-
ment, he was not able to' pronounce that they would not yet
take the form of an impeachment, that might, for all be at"
present knew, be the mode eventually pursued. Or if a less
awful forin was gie'en to the investigation. it might he carried
on to a Bill of pains and penalties, sending the offender to
exile, to suffering, and to death. If, then, their Lordships
should proceed by other means than those already adopted,
bow could it he that fifteen of their number, who would
have been prejudiced by the contents of that portentous
bag, should sit in judgment upon her Majesty's life ? How
was it possible that the must honourable mind could divest
itself of all influence involuntarily acquired from evidence of
the most malignant description ? for such he was led to be-
lieve was the character of the evidence in the Bag, Malig-
nity had volunteered its testimony when supposed to he ac-
ceptable in a certain quarter; and how probable it was,
when there was such a demand or supposed demand, for evi•
deuce, it would be supplied promptly, especially from the
quarter where this unfortunate individual had resided. How
probable it was that some person, influenced by ass interested
malignity—
" Some husy,iind insinuating rogue,
" asonsetetkilig, cozening slave, to get some office,
" Hathidevised this slander"—
might cum,, eedieVard to assert and Substantiate charges of the
blackest: description. He might proceed to show to their
Lordships, that no delay would be suffered in their proceed-
ings, by allowing the time fur which his Learned Friend had
applied, liecni.se in all cases before the tribunals of this
countr, all the witnesses must be present, in order that
the it evidence might he sifted hy cross-examination. It was
possible that suborned witnesses might be produced on both

sides, but thera Was danger or dirficuity of that in
the course Which they had entreated their Lordships to
adopt. When be looked around hint and taw the number of
distinguished individuals before whom be had to appear,
and recollected into what feeble hands, as far as he was
concerned, her Majesty's case Was entrusted, he felt himself
called upon to make au appeal in behalf of his illustrioug
client, in the language of Lotd WacOn, who said that
" A Judge ought to prepare his way to a, just sentence, `as
God usethto prepare his way, by raising rallies, and taking
down hills : so when there appeareth on either side an high
hand, violent prosecution, cunning advantages taken; com-
bination, power, great counsel, then is the virtue of a Judge
seen to make inequality equal, that he may plant his jUdg-
,
meat as upon an even ground."•

Mr. Viiit.tams (also Counsel for her Majesty)
was proceeding to address the House, when the
Loin ,CHANcELLoR 'interrupted him, stiving to
their, Lordships that he believed it was not custo-
mary for more than two Counsel to be heard in
support of a Petition. His Lordship then put
the question ~and being decided in the negative,
the Counsel withdrew.

Lord LIVERPOOL put off the meeting of the Se-
cret Committee till Wednesday, to give their
Lordships time to consider the desire other Md•
jeSI y'S Petition.
Lord GRLY gave notice, that if the Noble Lord
(Liverpool) persisted in proceeding by a Secret
Committee, he should to-morrow state his.reasons
fur propming.a diffvrent course of proceeding.' .
The Lords were summoned fop to-morrow, and
the House adjourned at S o'clock.