The Sun.
London, England, 1845-06-11 00:00:00

of Sir Richard Phillips, but nothing of material importance was

however reluctantly he did so, he felt bound to call upon his
7..eartied Friend to state row tin course he intended to pursue.
iir. IZILDYAit9 sAd he was surprised at such an intimation.
The Committee had ihtimated that they would repent to.niglit
to the [louse that the preamble of the Bill had not been proved ;
and, therefore, all he wanted was to adjourn until to.morrow
tnorning, in order that he might proceed with it as a Bill, it such,
shoo' 1 b.:. the course determined upon.

I -31 E P., P 1,1 !1,7, 4 I'.

elicited.
Mr. Witt-rmattz, who appeared on behalf of the Welsh Midland
Railway, was objected to being heard. The objection was :Wowed.
Er. Sergeant WRANGDAM then proceeded to cross-examine the
witness on behalf of Mi. Place, a landowner.
Mr. Davies, of Gloucester, cross-examined Mr. Brirkland
behalf of the Rev. Mr. Jones, a landowner, and possessing an in-
terest in the Forest of Dean Railway.
Mr. Stainton, manufacturer at Stroud, was next e-.l.amined
by Mr. BENSON—He knew the line of the South Wales Railway,
and was of opinion that, from the facilities it would afford for
the conveyance of coals into Stroud, they would be cheapened
nearly one-half of their present price. The population that would
be benefited from the diminution in the price of coal from the
proposed railway was upwards of 50,000.
In answer to a question from Sir Pinup RIDLEY, Mr. Stainton
replied that he had heard the Admiralty had interfered with the
proposed erection of a bridge across the Severn for the purposes
of the railway. _ .

Ti U.`,""E OF LORDS. ..ranc O.

Their Lordships z.l.,,emb!ed at the usual hour.
Mes,,engers from the Commons brought up La veral Bills,
which were read a first time•.
MAY NOOTII.

Petiti,n3 arflinst the grant to :41ayno,,ill were 'presented by
the Duke Gf Buckingham, the Earl of Rattner, and Lord
Campbell.

The CIIA IRMA N, after a few minutes' consultation with the other
Members of the Committee, announced that they had acceded to the
application, and would now adjourn to twolve o'clock to.:r orrow,
but on the understanding that there was to be no further ad.
journment.

SCOTCH UNIVERSITIES.

Lo-d CAMPBELL presented a petition against the tests in
the Scotch Universities.

RAILWAYS.
Tne LEARNED Loltn also gave notice that on the second read-
ing of the Braniling Junction Railway Bill he would draw atten-
tion to the important subject of railway companies purchasing
railways and canals, and thereby forming a monopoly contrary
to the intentions of the Legislature.
Lord BROUGHAM presented a petition relative to the
purchase of a canal by a railway company, and in doing so
must say that he heartily approved of the motion of which his
Noble and Learned Friend had given notice.
The NOBLE aryl LEARNED Loan' also presented a petition
from Mr. H. C. Talbot, against the Wilts and Somerset Railway.
Also a petition from John Free. M. 1)., who held {and in the
county of Devcn under Sir Stafford Northcote, against a rail
way there, which intersected his property, and cut up
his g.trdens and lawns. The Noble Lord reterrod
to the transactions that took place between him and Sir Staf-
ford Northeote, in reference to tine railway, and characterised
the conduct of Sir Stafford, or his agents, as being the most
dishonourable that ever came under his notice. The doctor
applied to Sir Stafford it' reference to the injuries he would
su.tain, and the only satisfaction he cook! get front him was that
Sir Stafford Nortlmote had been settled with. tie had been
bought, anti did not say a word against the 13111 now. He did
not care what was done with either the lawn or garden now,
because he had received a great deal of money, and,
therefore, he left his poor tenant, the doctor, in the
lurch. The doctor was not allowed to be heard, and the con-
sequence was, the 13i11 was suffered to pass.
Earl Paz WILLIAM said his Noble and Learned Friend
had stated the case with perfect accuracy, as far as he himself
knew of it.

On cross examination by Mr. LAW, he said he did not con-
sider the navigation of the river would be injured by erecting the
bridges. . . . . . .

Nathaniel Marley concurred entirely with the statements
e last witness.

Mr. Fisher was next examined—He stated he had been exten-
sively engaged in preparing traffic tables for several railway com-
panies, and had made up the traffic tables for the South Wales
Railway, in conjunction with Mr. Rockland. He had heard the
testimony of that gentleman, and entirely agreed wit'l him in his
statements of the traffic.
The Committee adjourned till twelve to-morrow.

Lord C ‘kiMPBELL had never heard of such an act of op-
pression a; the Railway Company proposed to commit. and the
Company that would take advantage of the poor doctor's situa
tion, and would not allow him to be heard, surely deserved no
favour at the hands of their Lordships.
The Earl of ST. GERMANS considered that the Noble
Lord (Lord Brougham) had taken a mo.t unwarrantable
position of late with respect to subjects like the one before
their Lordships. 'f he subject would be thoroughly considered
by the Committee on the Bill, which might be rejected on the
third reading. Ile hoped tie House would not listen to the
proposition of the Noble Lord.
Lord REDESDALE considered that Dr. Freer was worthy
of credit, and that there could be no doubt of the correctness
of the facts set forth in the petition. After a company had re-
fused to give a person a fair compensation. he was told he might
go to the Committee on the Bill. By doing so he might lose
more money than the property for which he claimed compensa-
ti, n was worth.

Lord BROUGHAM considered that the Noble Earl (Earl
of St. Germans) had not held a seat sufficiently long in that
House to entitle him to interpret the forms of the House better
than he (Lord Brougham) could. The Doctor went before
the Committee, but the landlord objected to his being heard,
so that Sir Stafford Northcote and his son stopped the mouth
of Dr. Freer, and preventel him from petitioning. They
then, after inducing him to fellow their advice, made terms be-
hind his haelr for the injuries the railway would cause his pro-
perty, taking advantage of his own error, and they now came
forward and told him that it was no use for him to look for
compensation, as he had not petitioned. He ( Lord Brougham)
never, in the whole course of his life, knew such a case of
practising upon a man as this case of the Northcote family. If
this rule were estab!ished, no matter what grievance a tenant
had to complain of, he had no remedy if the landlord alone was
to be heard.

The Earl of WICKLOW complained of the irregularity
which had lately become prevalent, of raising discussions on
the presentation of petitions, and more particularly of the
practice of his Noble and Learned Friend opposite, of making
a long speech upon every petition he happened to present. The
Noble Lord was not sit►sfied with stat►ng the nature of the
petition, but he took upon himself the gratuitous task of making
attacks upon individuals, and when a friend of those indivi-
duals happened to get up to defend them, the Noble Lord be-
came exceedingly indignant. If any one was d,ssatisfied with a
railway company, he had nothing to do but to send a petition
to the Noble Lord. and he might be sure the Noble Lord would
make an er parte speech on presenting it.
Lord BROUGEIA3I said there was never anything more
wi•hout foundation than the latter remark of the Noble Earl.
There was scarcely one out of every fifty petitions forwarded to
him that he selected for presentation.
After a few words from Lord CAMPBELL, the matter
dropped.

PUBLIC PETITIONS &c.

Lord PORTM AN gave notice that on Thursday next he
should introduce a Bill relating to tenants andtenaney in Eng-
land.
The LORD CIIANCF:LLOR presented a petition from a
Dissenting congregation in Dublin, in favour of the grant to
111 noot h.
'I he NOBLE AND LEARNED Loan laid on the table, by
command of her Majesty, the report of the Commissioners on
Criminal Law.

.....
The Bishop of NORWICH presented a number of peti-
tions from Dissenters in Suffolk against the grant to Maynooth.
The Marquis of BREADALBANE presented a petition
from Members of the Free Church of S cotland against the
grant to Maynooth. He stated that they had erected 630
churches. He also presented petitions of a similar tendency
from the members of the congregation of Albion chapel,
London, and from the members of different religious de-
nominations from Staleybridge, Loughborough, Dewsbury,
Halifax, Plymouth, and several other places.
The Earl of LI ADDINGTON did not mean to say a single
syllable on the sulject that arose out of the grant. He rose to
dissent from what was expressed by the Noble Marquis as to
the cause of the disruption that had taken place in the Free
Church of Scotland. It was not in consequei cc (as he un-
derstood the Noble Marquis to state) of the Auchterarder ease.
That was not the cause of the disruption. They stayed in
several years afterwards. It was because of the conditions
which were afterwards imposed upon them, and which they
could not conscientiously submit to.
The Earl cf CH ARLEVILLE presented petitions against
the grant to Mayziooth and the national system of education,
and postponed the motion of which he had given notice for to-
night till Monday next, so as to afford the Noble Earl time to
prozure certain papers in reference to it.
ENDOWMENT OF 31AYNOOTH.

The Duke of WELLINGTON moved the order of the day

for the House going into Committee on the Bill for the en:
dowment of Maynnoth.
The Duke of LEINSTER said he had had no opportunity,
during the former debate, to address their Lordships on the
subject of this Bill, and he wished now to detain the House
for a few minutes while he removed some of the aspersions
which had been cast on the College of Nlaynooth. He had for
several years resided near to that College, and he could assure
their Lordships that he had never heard of the least miscon-
duct, or of anything improper having been committed by the
inmates, or the principals of the tstablishtnent. He had the
honour of being personally acquainted with some of them, and
for his part he hail never met with more worthy men. They
always abstained from participating in politics, and were loyal
and true subjects of her Majesty. He begged to thank the
Government for baying introduced the measure, and to assure
them that he thought it would prove a great boon and a great
benefit to Ireland.

The Earl of CL A NUAB TY said, notwithstanding what had
fallen from the Noble Duke opposite, it would still be his duty
to move that the Bill be committed that day six months ; be-
cause he thought it was opposite to the Constitution, and in
direct violation of the principles of the Established Church.
lie called on Noble Lords to consider well the consequences
which would arise if the Bill were passed into a law, and
trusted they would not allow the Anglican Church to rest on
mere sufferance, by recognising the principle that the Roman
Catholic religion, or rather an antagonist church, was deserv-
ing of the support of the State. The Christian religion was
net founded oil expediency, but on the Scrititures, and as a
member of hat religin, he never would consent to a measure

- .
to perpc'uate an institution, the education taught in which was
in direct opposition to the tenets of the Church. They talked
of the hardship of giving some of the
professors in the College
of Maynooth so small a stipend as 1504 a year, whilst
a curare in the Protestant Church, who might have
a large family to support, received no more than 751.
a year, but who was no 1, se a gentleman because
he was in want of the necessaries of life, for he held
that the true characteristics in the education of a gentleman
were to be found in the Christian religion. It was stated that
they could not enter Maynooth without perceiving evidence
of the poverty of the institution in the filth and dirtiness which
abounded in every part ; but if they went into a poor curate's
house they would perceive, instead of filth and dirtiness, fru-
gality and cleanliness. Then, with respect to the policy
of tne measure, the ostensible o,iject of the Govern-
ment in proposing it, was to strengthen the union be-
tween this country sod Ireland, which was a great and im-
portant design; but they should have considered whether the
people of England were in favour of r.trengthening their union
with Ireland by charitable endowments. The Protestants of
England and Ireland, and the Presbyterians of Scotland, con-
demned the measure as impolitic, and as uncalled for. He
gave credit to the Government for their motives, but he could
not conceive a worse moment than the resent for proposing
a message of peace. Ireland would say the concession was
wrung from a reluctant Parliament. He called upon Noble
Lords to state whether the petitions which they had presented
against the Bill contained the genuine sentiments of the pe-
titioners or not. He was clearly of opinion that the feelings
of the people of Er gland were against the measure. Let that
question he adjourned, and let others be brought forward, like
the one before their Lordships last night—measures that would
take care of the poor, and be of a beneficial tendency to the
country—then such a measure would go ever approved of by
the people of England, and would be received by the people of
Ireland as a " message of peace" indeed.
The Earl of WICKLOW said that he would not detain the
House long. The question had been so much debated already
that nothing new could be said upon it. He considered that
her Majesty's Ministers were influenced by a regard to the
public welfare in bringing such a measure forward, but much
as he approved of it, he would not regard it w ith such satis-
faction if it were not an index of other measures, having for
their object the welfare of the people of Ireland. There was
another subject which he would allude to, and which was almost
suggested by the measure at present before their Lordships—
he meant the endowment of the Catholic clergy of Ireland.
That was a question which he had long considered was impera-
tively necessary, and he was quite convinced that it was merely
a question as to time ancl mode. There were, he thought, two
ways by which it was proposed that this should be accomplished,
either by making it a charge on the Consolidated Fund, or by
taking a portion of the funds of the Protestant Church for that
purpose. 'f he first he considered an objectionable mode, and a
mode which would not be sanctioned by the Government or the
country. The second was also objectionable, for he could not
be a consenting party to any measure that would despoil the
Protestant Church in Ireland of its property. He considered,
however, that something must he done in reference to this sub-
ject, and if they deferred it long, he foresaw that it would
ultimately become a party shiboleth, and agitate the
country to as great an extent, if not a greater extent,
than the grant to Maynooth. What he would propose to do,
ifnorst
tehaed
tont thetio tc twoin en t modesefthe thatcat
hoe clergy
hadi been
Ireland,
frequently' suggested
was to
make the endowment a rent charge. This charge, he con-
sidered, was one to which the landlords of Ireland could have
no objection, for, on referring to the Tithe Adjustment Act in
1737, up to the Church Temporalities Act, he found that the
landlords had benefited to the amount which had been taken
off the revenues of the Church. By the recent Church Tem-
poralities Act no less than 60,0001. was taken from the Church
4n d put into the pockets of the landlords ; and if this were
added to the 103,000/, referred to, it would make a sum of
255,0001. He thought it most strange, al.o, that when the
25 per cent, was struck off the 750,0001., which
was the
revenue of the Irish Church, there was nothing like the outcry
on the Opposition benches which had beet given to the meas
sore at present before their Lord§iliN• Now, if this sum of
P 55,000/. was pot on as a rent-charge for the endowment of
the Roman Catholic Clioreli in Ireland, he considered that it
would do exactly for that purpose, and, by making
this pro-
posal, he would be only asking their Lordships to place the
landlords in the same position 44 they were twelve years ago.
64rely, 'then, if (as he believed) a measure of this kind
would give satisfaction, and promote the tranquillity which

THE SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENING, JUNE 11. 1815.

was FO much to be desired, it would not be asking ton much
fro.n !ler 2112jesty'r Govern, ent tO ictroduei. a Bill fur Oat
purp,,e. That, or sornet!iipg ,iroiltr, would ! fournl to be
ti.ic most eff:otual, as wtll as satisfi-ctory, of securin,
the peace and good foelir:g of ti. I ri•h peopl, ; and he hoped
that before the present st s,ion expired they would bring for-
ward a measure of Ilia! kind.

Earl FE ZWILLIA was sure that her Majesty's Govern-
ment ought to feel grateful to the Noble Earl for bringing for-
ward the subject which he bad just introduced to their notice.
It was one which they should take up, and which fol-
lowed almost as a necessary consequence after the step
which they had just taken. He had formed a very
erroneousjudgment of the ability of her Majesty's Government
if they did not follow up the measure which was now before
their Lordships by other measures of a conciliatory nature, and
above all by the measure which had just been referred to by
the Noble Earl. He did not assent to the proposition of taking
the money for that purpose from the consolidated fond ; and
he believed that the Catholic clergy would persist in refusing
to take such a payment. His plan was not exactly the same,
but was nearly of a similar kind to that proposed by the Noble
Earl. The income of the clergy of the Protestant Church in
Ireland might. be now somewhat smaller than it was, and there
was no doubt that it was so ; but it was no longer
levied in kind, and the poor were altogether exempted from the
payments which were formerly exacted from them. With re-
stela to the mode of paying the Catholic clergy he thought
they should be placed un the same footing exactly as the Pro•
testant clergy. As they were riot married men it might not,
indeed, be necessary to give them the same amount of income,
hut in his opinion they were placed on precisely the same
footing. It would be impossible to get rid of the feeling which
such inequality would give rise to in the minds of both the
clergy and people of Ireland. He would then efore pop se that
whatever would remain to make up their income, after the
twenty-five per cent. was allotted to them, should he made up
by an additional charge on the land. He begged to apologise
to their Lordships for having occupied their attention again on
the measure before the House, but as the question of the
endowment of the Catholic clergy had been introduced he
thought it desii able to state the opinions which he entertained
upon that subject.
Lord CAMPBELL said, that as he had been referred to by
the Noble Earl, he fell. inclined to make a few remarks, but,
looking to the state of the House, and to the omens of adjourn-
ment which it indicated, he would postpone anything he had
to say till a future stage of the Bill.

Lord CLA NCA Y said that he would not press his
t menclment to a division, and he would therefore, with their
:r.ord,hips' permission, withdraw it. He admitted having op.
posed a measure of a similar nature while he sat in the House
of Commons, but things and circumstances bad changed since
then. Ireland had long existed in an excited state, and the
present measure was introduced as an earnest of their willing-
ness and desire to deal fairly and liberally with the people of
that country. Reserving to themselves the ootion of intro-
ducing larger measures whenever an opportunity or occasion
should present itself, they had thought it better to bring in this
Bill in the first instance, to convince the people of Ireland that
they wished to deal with them rather on conciliatory than on
coercive principles.
The Marquis of BR EADA LBA NE was sure the speech of
the Noble Lord would have a due effect upon the sister country ;
but he believed the people of England would not be gulled by
the measure.—( Hear, and a laugh.) The speech of the Noble
Lord would show to the people the feeling entertained by in-
fluential members of their Lordships' House on this most im-
portant question—a question which he maintained was con-
trary to the fundamental principles of the Constitution, and op-
posed to those safeguards of the liberties of the country, which
were established at the Revolution, and which had never been
violated till now. He regretted that he was compelled to differ
from those friends, with whom he generally acted ; but en
another occasion he hoped to have an opportunity of stating
more fully the grounds upon which he opposed the Bill.
The House then went. into Committee on the Bill, and the
whole of the clauses having been agreed to, the Houso re-
sumed, when

The CHAIRMAN reported progress, and the Bill was or-
dered to be read a third time, on Monday next.
LANDLORDS AND TENANTS' BILL.
Lord STANLEY intimated his intention of moving the
second reading of this Bill on Friday, instead of Monday next.
CANAL TOLLS' BILL.

This Bill went through Committee, and was ordered to be
read a third time on Thursday next.
Several Bills were advanced a stage, and their Lordships ad-
journed till Thursday.