The Sun.
London, England, 1842-02-16 00:00:00

rice SUN, LONDON, WEDNESDAY EVENIN(y,

stand at first the working of - the new law, to
import large quantities of corn to this country.
The consequence would be that by the low price super-
:induced by the great abundance in the market,
the fbreign producer would sustain n great loss,
and, taught by his experience, in that instance,
he would be careful not to repeat the operation.
His impression was that the new law and the old one
in their present working would be found to be pretty
much on a par, He was in hopes from the manner in
which the question had been introduced info her Majesty's
speech that the Right Hon. Bart. would have been In-
duced to alter his determination to abide by the sliding
scale. He considered that the sliding sc,ile was a system of
levying duties on foreign eorn.most injurious to every in-
terest of the country, except landed proprietors.—(Hear,
hear.) lie believed it would be the interest of the
people of this country, rather than be subjected to the
operation of the sliding scale, .to pay a duty of 20s. per
quarter to the landed proprietors for every quarter of
corn they used.—(Hear, hear.) They would save
a vast deal of wealth by it. They would then
know the extent of their loss,' but he would venture to
say that no human being could Calculate the loss which
the country sustained in consequence of the opera-
tion of the sliding scale. :During the last four
years there had beep nearly ten millions of quarter:: of
corn purchased for ,this country. Immediately on
the demand, the corn-dealers rushed to the
nearest market, and purchased corn at any price
for which it could be obtained, especially when it was
seen that within a certain period the sliding scale would
reduce the duty to Is. In August, 1838, he saw a re-
markable illustration of this. He happened to be at
Hamburgh, on his way to the north of Germany, and the
instant he arrived he\was asked by an English gentleman
as to the state of the w(fiather and the crops in England,
at the time he (Mr. Williams) left. This gentleman
was the representative of large London corn-
dealers, who was sent out to purchase corn in
Hamburgh, under the expectation that there would
he it failure in the crops in England in 1838.
This gentleman then went to the large holders of corn, and
offered them the same prices which they had agreed to take
five days before—(Hear, hear)—but not a quarter would they
sell, without a considerable' advance upon that price. No
doubt th:re had been a great evil in the Corn-laws, by eni-
harming the price of the bread of the working man, but it had
caused them much more suffering by depriving him of employ-
ment, through the derangement of the currency, and the inter-
ruption of commerce.—( Hear, hear). As the smallest calcu-
lation in the last fo ir years, 15,000,0001. in bullion had been
sent out of the country to pay for corn—(Hear)—and in those
years we had paid full fifty or fifty five per cent. more than if
we had traded Oral the fixed duty.--( Hear, hear.) With the
fixed duty we 0.,u1d be supplied from the western coast of
America in years a deficiency, which could never be the case
whilst there was the sliding-scale.—( Hear, hear.) There was
another subject which the present system affected very mate-
rially. In getting into the foreign market in a hurry for our
corn, it becomes necessary to employ foreign shipping—
( Hear, hear, hear)—for we have no opportunity of em-
ploying our own; for if a merchant happened to
have one of his own ships on the , port to which
he goes for corn, and if she is not ready to sail
at once, he cannot wait even a day, but must charter the first
foreign vessel he finds ready to sail, or otherwise he would
surely arrive too late for the low duty,—( Hear.) The slid-
ing scale appeared to him in every point of view to be most
injurious to every interest except the landowners, The Right
Hon. Baronet had seated one most astonishing proposition.
He had stated that it was a common doctrine with many per-
sons in bringing accusations against the Corn-laws to say
that they lard a tax on corn, which was paid by the consumer
to the producer of corn ; but thathe (Sir R. Peel) denied that
doctrine. He ( Mr. Williams) understood that Right Hon. Bart.
denied that propoSition, and was astonished to hear him say so.
He should like to know what object the Right Hon. Bart. could
have in desiring to keep the price of corn up to from 545. to
565., unless it were to protect the landed interest. The Hon.
Member for Aylesbury had said the object of the Corn-laws
was to protect the landed interest by giving them higherprices
than they could otherwise obtain, and he would ask what was
a duty imposed for the purpose of giving the landed interest
higher prices, but a tax paid to them by the consumers, and
who were the consumers, the millions of the working classes of
this country, and who derived the benefit of it ? The rich land-
owners ; therefore, the tax was a direct tax, as direct a tax as
the house-tax, and it was taken out of the pockets of
the consumers, and put into the pockets of the aris-
tom-laical landowner. The Right Hon. Baronet had with a
great deal of pomp and form, introduced a number of statistical
details into his speech relative to the comparative consump-
tion of the necessaries of life in Prussia and in England by the
working classes. The Right Hon. Baronet had stated that
the authority from which he had derived his information was
unquestionable, and that it was believed means existed of 'as-
certaining exactly the statement which he had established.
Sir ROBERT PEEL—I said that Dr. Bowring's report
stated that there existed means of arriving at accurate statis-
tical details.

Mr. W. WILLIAMS was aware that the Right Honourable
Baronet had said so, but the Right Hon. Baronet had further
said, as from himself, that it was believed that there existed
means of ascertaining exactly the accuracy of those statistical
details. He took the words down at the time ; hut he would
only take these words which the Right Hon. Baronet ad-
mitted. The Right Hon. Baronet had stated upon the au-
thority of those statistics, that in Prussia they consumed of meat
351bs. a year each person, and that in this country each person
consumed 501bs. Another Gentleman, however had estimated
the consumption at 100 lbs. Now, taking the meat at 7d. a
lb., it would make a difference of consumption to the amount
of 12,000,000 lbs. Some gentleman had stated that the con-
sumption of wheat by each individual, was one quarter annu-
ally, while others stated it at two quarters. Supposing this
to apply to the consumption in England and Wales, and sup.
posing the price to be Ms., in the article of bread alone there
would be a consumption to the amount of 12,000,000 lbs., and
if that was applied to the United Kingdom, it would be up-
wards of 50,000,0001b5. Now, the next article to which the
Right Hon. Baronet had referred was woollen cloth. That '
was an article that was essentially necessary. He had stated
that in Prussia the consumption was two ells each parson.
These were the great and importantillustrations given by the
Right Hon. Baronet as proof of the superior condition
of the people of England as compared•with Prussia. The
Right Hon. Baronet had stated the relative proportion of con-
sumption in this country, upon the authority of two gentlemen
whom he considered well informed upon the subject ; lnit he
would put it to the Right Hon. Baronet whether there was
in reality any means of arriving at a correct estimate upon
the matter. He would ask the Right llon. Baronet if he had
any idea of the average yearly consumption of his owe, family ?
He would ask any Hon. Member in that House if he knew the
average of his own consumption, or of that of his next door
neighbour ? He believed that any lion. Member %%mild reply
to the question in the negative ; and the Right Hon. Bart.
must have been much in need of argumenta when he had
recourse to statements of such a nature. He (Mr. Williams)
had travelled through many parts of Prussia, and he believed
from his own observation that the working-classes there were
in a better condition than the working-classes in thiscountry.
He had reason to believe that the condition of the working-
classes in Switzerland:and in France was still better than in
Prussia. The Right Hon. Gentleman had referred to the
United States, and stated that one of the causes of the greet
depression which had of late prevailed in the trade of this
country, was the derangement in the monetary affairs of the
United States. Now he (Mr. Williams) had been in the
United States at the period referred to by the Right Hon.
Baronet, and he had seen no evidence there of distress of any
kind ; the people were well fed and well clothed, anti
there was ne human being who seemed to suffer from poverty.
But he, in common with every Englishman who visited that
part of the country, could not but feel regret when they saw
the 3,000 newspapers published there daily, containing some
accounts of the awful distress existing amongst the working-
classes in this country, and drawing a comparison between the
misery and destitution of the people here and the happy con-
dition of the people of the United States. He saw there a
most extraordinary advancement in the state of their manufac-
tures. They hail not only supplanted us in their own
market, but they had beaten us to a considerable ex-
tent in neutral markets. Three millions, six hundred
thousand dollars, worth of tnanuafactured goods had been
exported, during the last year, to the United States.
Hear, hear.) He expected the Right Honourable
Baronet would have regarded the rising condition, which was
advancing in the United States, as producing an impression on
the mind of the working-
classes of this country. They might
depend upon it, that unless the working-classes in this country
were relieved of some of their burdens, our manufacturing
trade must decline. He could see no possibility of it maintain-
ing its stand, unless by that means. He trusted the admis-
sion of corn free from duty would, to a great extent,
relieve the depression on manufaetuting and commercial inte-
rests ; but he believed that more must be done for the people,
entrand, lssit
itaeor
country..
tic)
on n
tmof a)f
"Ana
wtua i
and that they must be considerably relieved from the burden of
a't.di
s7urel:ae,(ei
sik ind:yfaa couldbsu,tita,
hteowsu
seven
:elgono oi
rneykeae
tab raasc
saidka
ago,rai
ltnt tawhfritea:ris
lstateout:ikoe
t Beede
late to set about any measure, he believed that measures
might be adopted yet to afford substantial relief to the manu-
facturing population, whereby they might recover and sustain
their former position. They neither want skill nor in-
dustry..---( Hear, hear, hear.) No people excelled them
in those qualities, but they could not contend with the Swiss
people, who paid scarce any taxes, whil,t their taxes were so
immense. He certainly did expect that the Right Hon.
Baronet would have regarded the present distressed condition
of our manufacturing and commercial men with a feeling
very different to that which he had manifested in his proposi-
tion. He could not help thinking that the aristocracy of this
country, for whose benefit the.e laws were 'maintained, were
committing a great injustice. The people of this country had
regarded the aristocracy with every feeling, uf moderation and
respect. Now they began to examine into the grounds of
their claims to tax the rest of the community. What did the
middle classes say of the aristocracy L-those middle classes
who had always been their shield, and who would continue to
be their shield, if they did not persist in maintaining a system
of oppression and injustice ? 1 hey said that the aristocracy
who thus taxed them were superior to them neither physically
nor mentally, neither in virtue nor in morals; arid they asked,
what right had they, in the midst of luxury anti splendour. to
tax the fool of the people ? He believed that the tinse was fast
approaching, and lie did not say it to taunt that class, he had
no such feeling towards them f but he believed the time was
fast approaching, when, if they continued to pursue this courre
of injustice towards the middle and working-classes, their pre-
tensions would be very inconveniently enquired into by those
classes of this country. If they depended on the military, the
police, and the constabulary, for their suppott, they would not
be able to maintain that tax. If they placed themselves in
hostile opposition to the peple, how tdd they expect the contest
would end ?—( Hear, hear.) Let them look to the condi:ion
of trance. No aristocracy could be prouder, or have enjoyed
greater privileges than did the aristocracy of France, They
pursued the same course in levying oppressive taxation
on the people, but what was the result? We need not
say what is the end of that aristocracy. There is nothing
like being wise in time.—(Hear, hear.) There was a feeling
abroad among the people that would not allow them to suffer
oppression.—( Hear, hear.) He would vote for the proposition
of the',Noble Lord the Member, for London, because he thought
a lixetHuty preferable to a sliding scale; at the same time that
he objected to all taxes on food, and would vote for the propo-
sition of the Hon. Member for Wolverhampton as the only one
which would give satisfaction to the country, and which he be-
lieved ought to be the law of the land.—( Cheers. )
Mr. ORNISItY GORE said that having taken a deep ins
tere.t in the present question, he gave it his utmost attention
during th. t ecess, and with the assistance of an able and honest
neighbour his he was enabled to ascertain exactly to a fraction
the consump ion of 13 families, consisting of 69 individuals, all of
them labouring in his immediate neighbourhood. Those la-
bourers were all of them in constant employment, and he found
their consumption to be eight bushels and a small fraction, im-
perial measure, per head per annum—that was one quarter.
The consumption by each individual, taking the average at
565. 9d., the measure would be eight bushels for twelve
months, which would be Is. 04d. a head per sleek. The duty
amounted to ss. 94d., which would be 50. a month er lid.
a week on each, and this was the amount that the party op..
posite cried out was destroying the working man. But those
were too wise to believe this statemsnt, though he would grant
the party opposite had issued violent placards and established
a violent league, and had raised money in a very extraordinary

manner. Not on account of these five farthings a week, but
for party purpcses, they desired to shake the island to its
centre. Now to show how their conduct was regarded he
would refer to a letter he had received from a working man.
He knew nothing of the author of this letter, but he stated that
he.was a working man ont ;of employment, and that the tnajo-
-rity of his class were perfectly aware that the Corn-laws had
nothing to do with their misery. The Hon. Member then read
the extract be had alluded to, in which the writer advised that
the working men should be consulted, and they would state
that the great and primary cause of all their distress had re-
mained unnoticed; they would state that neither the Corn-laws,
r.or the currency, nor the banks affected them, while their
labour remained untouched ; but that any power that should
destroy their labour, would destroy them likewise. They knew
that all their distress was-to be attributed to the unlimited ex-
tension of machinery, which,- during the last two years, had
thrown thousands of persons out of employment ; that the same
cause was extending, and, unless checked by Legislative enact-
ments, would end in bringing down ruin on the heads of those
who were so anxious for its extension. The Hon. Member
thiin gave (we understood from the same document) a coal-
putatiort of the amount of handlabour that would have been re-
quired to supply the same quantity as was furnished by a
power-loom employing only two men to attend to it.
He would not trouble the House with any arguments upon this
letter. He (Mr. Ormsby Gore) had risen in consequence of
the challenge given by the Hon. Member opposite, and in con-
sequence of his (Mr. 0. Gore) having in the year 1840 gone
at considerable length into the question of the Corn-laws, and
therefore he thought he 'ought not to remain perfectly silent.
The question had been properly divided by the lion. and Gal-
lant. Member for Westminster into three parts, a fixed duty
one, a sliding-scale, and no duty at all the' other. '\\'hat he
(Mr. 0. Core) stated two Years ago, he was prepared to carry
opt at that moment. He was strengthened in that opinion
very considerably by what he had seen and heard since the
commemement of the debate, and from what had
fallen from the Noble Lord the Member for Lon-
don, and the Honourable Member for Bolton. He
(Mr. Ormsby Gore) gave credit to the lion. Member for
Wolverhampton for his honest, straightforward, and English-
manlike conduct in coming forward for a total repeal of these
laws.—( Cheers from the Opposition.) He (Mr. Villiers) felt
that it was to the interest of the country, and therefore lie had
brought it forward in a manly and straightforward manner.
But when he (Mr. Ormsby Gore) heard the Noble Lord com-
ing forward for a fixed duty, he could not give him credit for
the same motives, feeling convinced, as he did, that it was im-
practicable. He, therefore, should denounce the measure
of a fixed duty, as not being that straightforward, honest, and
open system upon which legislation should be founded. He be-
lieved the system was founded on deceit, and he should have
thought that the division of last year would have set it to
rest in the tomb of its ancestors; and he hoped that a division
on this motion would be such, that it would put it to rest for
ever. He was certain that if it was passed into a law, those
clamorous for an alteration in the present system would then
become clamorous for a total repeal. With regard to a repeal
of the duty altogether, lie should rather support that than a
fixed duty. But they must recollect that the home trade took
two-thirds of the manufactures of the kingdom, and if they
destroyed the agriculturists, they must then be dependent upon
foreigners for the sale of their manufactures. He did not
believe that the labouring classes of this country were
at prices
q homeuiteso stultified,
whatltified th,aey as to give
geeut elsewhere.pirreadyn7n would have
another opportunity of entering into the subject when the
money
Hon. Member brought forward his amendment, and he should
therefore not trouble the House further.

Mr. WARD said they were very much indebted to the Hon.
Member who had just addressed the House for setting at rest a
question upon which there was very great difference of opinion,
both in that House and in the country; namely, the precise
amount of protection the gentlemen for whose benefit the Corn-
laws were instituted, received. The Hon. Member had said
that he had risen to address the House in answer to a challenge
from the Hon. Member for Coventry. He had told them
that the question of the Corn-laws and the duty they
imposed upon the community were
.things not worth con-
sidering, and that the amount of consumption of each indivi-
dual was. He (Mr. Ward) did not understand the Hon.
Member in his first statement, although he was perfectly in-
telligible afterwards. He stated that the consumption for each
individual was eight bushels per annum, and that the amount of
duty was ss. 9d. per head per annum, which, in a family of
five individuals, was 335. for the family, making for the whole
population, proved to be ab0ur25,000,000, somethino. like
5,000,0001. per annum, which were the taxes levied and sus-
tained by the sliding scale upon the working people. For
this admission the country could not but be grateful, but he
(Mr. Ward) dared say that the Right Hon. Baronet would
not be obliged to him at all for the admission, but the admission
was in his own figures.
Mr. ORMSRY GORE—No, no. I said ss. 9d. a head.

Mr. WARD—Five shillings and ninepence was fora family
of five or six, about 335. while for the whole population it
amounted to somewhere about 5,000,000/. in good round num-
bers. He (Mr. Ward) was not responsible •for the Hon.
Gentleman figures, but they were his own admissions, and
therefore he (Mr. Ward) was entitled to suppose that the
lion. Gentleman meant a poll-tax to be levied on every
person not a landowner, and which, when levied, the Hon.
Member told them was not worth contending for. The Hon.
Member said that that agitation, was a popularity cry and a
mere party question, amongst 3-4ths of the population ; and
then he brought its a letter from a workingman who said he
did not consider that the depression arose from the
Corn-laws, but was mainly owing to the mischiefs produced
by machinery. Now upon that matter, he was as much at
issue with the Right Hon. Baronet, as he was with them. He
had heard several gentlemen, and particularly a Noble
Lord opposite cheering the most violent passages
in that speech with which the debate had been
closed the night before. He alluded to the speech of the
Hon. Member for Knaresborough—a speech replete with pas-
sion, and devoid of all that calmness which should attend dis.
mission. In that speech all the rules of Parliament had been•
transgressed, a speech in which the question was changed to
one of mere personality. The attack was made from that (the
Ministerial side of the House), and not from those who were
agitating. The charges in that speech were of a most. marked
character. But to return ; the lion. Gentleman who had
spoken last had said that there were three questions before the
house, or that there were three divisions of one question—a
fixed duty ; the sliding scale; and no duty at all. Now he
(Mr. Ward) denied that that was a correct statement of the
question. There were a great many opinions upon this sub-
ject, and he (Mr. 'Ward) must confess that there had been a
great deal of misrepresentation as to the question the Noble
Lord had submitted to the House. They were not assembled
to decide a fixed duty or a sliding scale. They were not
called upon to give an opinion upon the Bs. duty or a sliding
scale. The Noble Lord near him had never mentioned an Bs.
duty as part of his proliosition.—( Laughter from the Ministe-
rial benches.) lie hadnever mentioned an Bs. duty in any
part of the proposition which he had submitted to the House.
What the Noble Lord had stated was plainly this, that what.
ever peculiar burthens the agriculturist sustained, for these
burthens he was willingto give compensation. They were
not called upon to name any extent of protection. He (Mr.
Ward) had taken the liberty of giving notice last session, and
be should take an early opportunity of doing so again, of his
intention to move for a Committee to inquire what were the
peculiar burthens agriculturists were subject to in this country.
Hear, hear," and cheers)---and whether there were any
peculiar burthens at all.—(Lond cheers.) He did not intend
to enter into the question of those burthens till after that mo-
tion. (Lord Stanley made some remarks across the table,
' which were inaudible.) The Noble Lord would admit with him
(Mr. Ward) that it was laudable to endeavour to remove any
burthens upon trade ; and with respect to the trade in
corn, they must all acknowledge the endeavours of the Noble
Lord (J. Russell). He (Lord J. Russell) had acquitted
himself with peculiar credit last night, in recommending a
fixed duty in preference to a sliding scale. His (Mr.
Ward's)
conviction was, that the time for a fixed duty was rapidly pass-
ing away. It was passing away in the way in which every-
thing passed away, when put into the balance of great party
questions. In these great questions great mistakes were fre•
quently committed, and the public were benefited by it. It
was thus that you gave us the Reform Bill. Had a consti-
tuency been given to Birmingham when it was first demanded,
most likely the Reform Bill would never have been carried.
It was a great mistake of the Right Honourable Ba-
ronet, in proposing his scale ; for, as in 1831, it would
most likely be the means of giving the people of this
country a total repeal of all laws restricting the
free importation of food, because the landowners, when they
had the opportunity, did not choose to accept the plan which
would have given them an adequate protection. He (Mr.
Ward) was very well aware that after the discussion of this
subject they should have Birmingham over again. He was
sorry to see this agitation on that great question.—(Laughter
from the Ministerial Benches.) Hon. Gentlemen seemed to
think that he had an interest in every species of agitation
when he had not, for he did not like agitation. He came
down to that House on Wednesday, he admitted, with a very
foolish faith in the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, for hi'
thought it was probable that ho was going to make a proposi-
tipn to that House which would settle the question for years
to come.—(Hear.) It was not his (Mr. Ward's) fault
if the Right Honourable Baronet had disappointed him.
He (Mr. Ward) was not pledged to extreme measures by his
constituents. His constituents had sent up a ptition to that
House, which hail been presented that day, bearing a large
number of signatures, hut be was perfectly free to take any
course he pleased, and his hope had been that the Right Hon.
Baronet would have made a proposition which he (Mr. Ward)
might have thought would have proved an alleviation of the dis-
tresses of the country. When they talked of having the pri-
vilege of protection enjoyed by one particular class in the coun-
try, they must have some very strong public grounds to go
upon. They were not to say, as had been said by the Vice-
President of the Board of Trade yesterday, that because
protection existed 140 s ears, that they . were to give
a protection of 20s. per quarter on wheat. He
(the Vice-President of the Board of Trade) went
to show that the sliding scale was a great security against
fluctuation of prices, and tried to prove it by the example of
Prussia, where he said the prices of corn frequently ranged
higher than in this country. lie (Mr. Ward) had referred
the principateause of fluctuation.
to the work of Mr. Wilson, an authority Tinted by the Right
le the Legislature
Hon. Vice-President of the Board of Trade', from which he
had learned much, and he went along with hthifmaermecneirtisrrneo-lifyalivEnsn.hgii!
ld
sown guineas
argument. He (Mr. W aepredenr)rheteel e:;:mihnitt
pttoobstashti
be
nluaonet
land
thought
pus oeglshe
twctiahl
iuecshe hwme Legislaturedreb
Mous suppositions; they hail brought; intocultivation land which
could realize. He thought the farmer had ;;one on upon fella-
thheioh fallacious hopes
never should have been cultivated they
and reaped shillings, and, mainly, success of competi-
tion, and bad legislation, was to. be attributed the excessive
produce of certain years, and this was the opinion of Mr.
Wilson. He would read a few extracts from the work of Mr.
work which stated the opinion 1 writer, that the farmers
Wilson. The Hon. Gentlematoi.thteine read an extract from the
in the whole of argument. There
held out by the Legi prices. These
ge importations of
over-cultivated their
foreign corn ; and thus the foreigner took almost the entire
benefit of the rise in our prices. Now,
thathe (Mr. Ward) went
led to large high prices Immediately
was a false stimulus to the fume!, and no modification of the
evil, thou
along with Mr. Wilson,
sliding scale could remedy the gh hopes were held out
to the farmers which never could be expected to be realised ;
landslaturfreomof
fog, as thes Right Hon. Baronet had justly observed, his
plan of
the Corn-laws was not for the purpose of preventing prices
from ranging from 735. to 365. The Right Hon. Baronet
adopted a well-known principle
He maechanics he did mit
waste his power.—( Laughter)
experience of 1815, a great deal of. power was wasted in the
former Bill—that 38s. was like putting a steam engine of forty
horse power where a steam engine. of five-horse power was
sufficient. Thirty-eight shillings, it was well known, never
could be realised. The Right Hon. Baronet had said it was
quite useless to ask more than Ds., which was a perfectly na-
tural feeling, for he knew very well that it was useless to
waste power.—( Cries of " Hear, hear, cheers, and laughter. )
' Two millions quarters of corn was the very utmost that could
be got from the whole of Europe; for instance, upon a calcu-
lation of the exports of the three principal exporting towns
upon the continent—namely,
Hamburgh, Stettin - D •
, ant antzic—
it would be found that Hamburgh exported three hundred and
fifty thousand quarters of corn last year,
,31.etin, '250,000
quarters, , and Dartzic, 315,000 quarters, all at an average
price of 40s. per quarter ; then, if the freight were added, it
would increase it by four or five shillings, so that it was per-
fectly obvious it could not be bad, at the very lowest rate, at less
than 455. a quarter • that was according to Mr. Meek's calcula-
, tions, and it should be recollected that Mr. Meek was the