The Sun.
London, England, 1845-07-01 00:00:00

clearly contrary to the principle of the Bill. The Ro-
man Catholic hierarchy had required that the students
should attend Divine worship on Sundays. Now,
with regard to the question as to whether there
should be any religious instruction, he had no
objection to the instruction of the Roman Catholic
pupils by Roman Catholic priests. Certainly it
was not wise to leave the pupils without any
religious instruction. He had not sufficient acquaintance
with the constitution of Trinity College, but he did not
think that there should be any doubt as to what was to be
the system pursued in it. Either they must open Trinity
College, Dublin, to Roman Catholics as well as to Pro-
testants or they must altogether close it, and although
he thought this college should be opened, yet it cer-
tainly was not wise to interfere with its present govern-
ment. Yet, notwithstanding his objection to this, he
thought that there should not be one sort of education
in
ferior,
was the Protestants and another, which though
was good enough for Roman Catholics. On thisground.
therefore, he thought that it would be advisable to make
this provision for the religious education of the Catholics.
Sir J. GRAHAM said that much had been said of
opening Trinity College to all sects without distinction,
but with certain minor restrictions Catholics were
equally eligible with Protestants to be received into that
University. The Noble Lord had argued as if it were
a necessary part of the ecialomy of the
intended Government colleges that students should re-
side in them. But this residence was not compulsory,
but voluntary, and in contemplating such, they were
actuated by several motives ; one to have the student:
under the supervision of their superiors, and another
to simplify the arrangements fer educational and
domestic purposes. The Noble Lord's argument, he re-
peated, would have been unanswerable if the attendance
of students at these halls vt ere compulsory ; but as that
a.tendance was voluntary, his amendments were alto-
gether unnecessary.
Mr. C. BULLER said that every alteration made in
the Bill had deteriorated it, because it interfered with
its original principle. He was ready to accept this Bill
as it stood, on the assurance of Government that
a un'versity system would be ultimately adopted
for the college one now contemplated, because
the real essence of a university education consisted
in the power to give degrees, which would
bo found exce'dingly useful afterwards to scientific men;
and they could not expect, unless they gave this advan-
tage, that these colleges would be crowded with students.
The Roman Catholics of Ireland had a right to an equally
good education with that given in Trinity College,
Dublin, and this plan would give them that. He had
no desire to depreciate the advantages of moral and re-
ligioui training, but experience had shown that religion
was not inculcated in their national universities. Why,
a, hen he was himself at Cambridge, it was customary " to
buy off" attendance at chapel, and it was a rule that
gentleman commoners were asked to attend chapel only
on Sundays, while pensioners were required to be there
every day. It was monstrous. It seemed as if the
souls of noblemen and gentlemen commoners did not
require that watchful attention which was expended
upon the lower classes of collegians. He remembered,
also, a man being found reading a novel in chapel. One
would suppose that his superiors would have said, " You
are not in a proper frame of mind to perceive the beau-
ties of Christianity," and they would have tried by rea-
soning to show him his error. But let the House mark
the difference. That gentleman was, for the remainder
of his terms, obliged to attend chapel morning and even-
ing.—(Laughter.) He regretted any alteration in the
principle of this measure. The system had been found
to work well in Scotland, and none in that House would
undertake to say that the Scotch were a nation of
Atheists. They could not be considered the least reli-
gious portion of the empire. There the students were
not obliged to go to chapel, or to attend theological lec-
tures ; and he knew, from a friend of his who had
studied in Edinburgh for a year and a half, that a moral
superintendence was exerted far superior to that of Ox-
ford or Cambridge. He was not compelled to attend
chapel, but he was a resident in the house of a clergy-
man, where practical lessons of Christianity were taught
him—(Hear, hear)—and so with the universities of Lom-
bardy. In Padua and Modena, the system was the very
same with that of Edinburgh. He trusted that the Go-
v. rnment would not introdut e religious tuition into their
Bill, because, as surely as they did so, the measure would
he inefficient for Ireland.—(Hear, hear.) This was a
scheme to give classical and scientific education to Ire-
land, let the parents or guardians look that their reli •
gious education be attended to. He would support the
original Bill, and he trusted that the Government would
adhere to it.

Sir R. H. INGLIS said that he should not then enter
further into the discussion than to make a few observa-
tions on what had fallen from the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman who bad just sat down. In answer to his
statement, and the cheers of other Hon. Members he had
no hesitation in stating, that in no class of society had a
greater improvment taken place than in the University
which he had the honour to represent. With respect to
this Bill, his great objection to it was that it excluded reli-
gion altogether, as a matter essentially connected with the
interests of the States, and still more so as connected
with its duties. The provision which the Bill proposed
for securing a proper superintendence of the religious
and moral instruction of the pupils was manifestly inade-
quate ; for it left to the president of each college the un-
controlled power of giving and withdrawinglicences to the
masters of the boarding-houses, and there was no
clause which required the master to see that the stu-
dents did their duty to God, by attending to divine
worship, as well as their duty to man, by obedience to
the laws of the land, and the laws of conventional
morality. He would not now detain the House by re-
peating the further reasons which he had previously ex•
plamed, in former discussions, for supporting the pro-
position of the Noble Lord the Member for London.
Mr. BERNAL said that the reasons alleged by the
Right Hon. Baronet the Member for Oxford, for sup-
porting the amendment of his Noble Friend the Member
for London, were precisely those which induced him to
oppose the amendments. He warned, and implored the
Government, if they wished the measure to succeed, to
guard against being seduced into making it a religious
Bill, which would excite against it an amount of popular
hostility altogether unprecedented. He contended that
this was not a proper moment for introducing a dis-
cussion as to the principle of the Bill. They were now
considering only the propriety of introducing the
word " halls" after the word " colleges." Having been
himself a student at Cambridge, he was able to say from
his experience that every attempt to enforce theological
study must be a failure ; and in Ireland the attempt
could have no chance whatever of success.
Sir R. PEEL said that even after all that had been
said by his Right Hon. Friend the Member for Oxford,
he remained convinced of the importance of extending to
those classes who had been hitherto excluded from it,
the advantages of an academical education. He could
not at the setae time admit, with the Hon. Gentleman
opposite, that the discipline at Cambridge was the same
now that it bad been thirty years ago. If the parents
and guardians of children did not take care of their reli-
gious instruction any measure in that House would be
completely absurd.
Mr. SHEIL thought that the principle of the Bill was
at stake. The Government thought that if they received
the suggestion of the Noble Lord, they would make a
secession equivalent to the abandonment of the measure.
)Ie did not agree with his Hon. Friend the Member for
NVeymouth on this subject. On other matters he would
have difficulty in differing with him. Not only the
Roman Catholic Bishops were unanimous with respect
to the inoperation of this Bill, but every Roman Catholic
Member in that House, and every Irish Member at his
side of the House, concurred in his view that this mea •
sure was ineffective—he might almost say fatally so.—
("No." from Mr. Ross.) He would wish to except the
Hon. Member for Belfast, where the religious education
of the Presbyterians was provided for. And why not
provide for the religious education of the Roman
Catholics of Cork ? The Presbyterian clergy and laity
received instruction in Belfast, both those who were in-
tended and those who were not intended for the Church.
Those who would be Irishmen—with a single exception,
the Member for Belfast—concurred in thinking the Bill
to be defective. His Hon. Friend said, beware
of exciting the people of England. He (Mr.
Isheil) would say, beware of governing Ireland in
conformity with the prejudices of the people of Eng-
land.—(Hear, hear.) The prejudices of the people of
England were not to he held out to them, and he thought
that the Minister of England would agree with him on
that subject.—(Cheers and laughter.) They paid the
Roman Catholic clergymen for attending the barracks
and csarrisons of Dublin, and also for attending the sol-
diers wives, with the enormous salaries of 601. a year.
The priest at Templemore was paid that for attending
the barracks. He (Mr. Sheil) knew it, because he him-
self had made the suggestion to the Hon. Member for
Coventry, and that sum was now paid. They paid the
Raman Catholic clergy for attending the poorhouses, and
in common conscience what was the reason why they did
not pay Roman Catholic clergymen for attending in
places of secular instruction in which spiritual instruc-
tion was peculiarly required ? He wanted their reason,
and he wanted it specific and plain, and he could not
forbear from making an observation, that they were con-
stantly saying that they were willing to pay
the Roman Catholics, and he heard constant
insinuations that the settlement of the Roman
Catholic clergy was of paramount importance, and ought
to be undertaken. It happened that in 1825 the Secre-
tary for the Home Department was not a Member of the
House when Lord F. Egerton brought forward his motion,
but he took the opportunity of stating that if he had been
in Parliament be would have voted for it. The Secretary
at War made a speech in favour of it, but they said that
th-, Roman Catholic clergy would not take the money.
They had paid on other occasions, and exhibited a desire
to pay then, was that consistent with the present mea-
au; e? The Catholic Bishops asked them to appoint the
clergy at the smallest pittances, but the Government
weuid not appoint them. They said that thee feared the
prejudices of the English people; if such was the case,
this would not be a message of peace, but would add to
the long category Of prostrations which constituted
toe
governing tasiey of this country with respect to Ireland.
Lord BERNARD made a few observations refer-
rii e, to the period of history when the Church
of Rome became reunited with the Church of
Ireland. He would be ready to admit the want
et education that existed at all periods of time
from that epoch to this moment. He knew the
wi .its of the poorer &asses of the people at
&bet present day ; but he would contend for it,
that Trinity College was sufficient for all the pur-
poses of giving education to the middle classes, and then
..tablish societies for the education of the poorer classes,
such as the Dublin Society. He (Lord B.) would
not speak so much at length upon this subject but that
be was intimately acquainted with that part of Ireland
where, he believed, it was intended that one of these
eolleges should be established. At a meeting held in
Cork, at which the Hon. Member for Waterford pre-
sided, that Hon. Member declared that he was in favour
of a system of education which should be based on
religion, and that religion founded on the Scriptures;
and a gentleman proposed a. resolution at that meeting