The Sun.
London, England, 1842-02-26 00:00:00

petition between the importer from Dantzic and the
English grower. That was his proposition. He found,
that in the year 1828, the average price in England was
50s. 6d. ; and it appeared, from a Report of a Commit-
tee of which the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary for
the Home Department was a member, the average of
wheat at Dantzic in the same year was 30s. That was
apparent from their own Report. Now the duty
under the scale of the Right Honourable Baronet
would have been 205., and, by adding 10s.
for freightage, they would have a sum of 605.,
at which, of course, the Dantzic wheat could not
be sold, in the year 1828, in this country. He was
ready to admit, however, that under 60s. there might
have been some relief in the year in question under the
scale of the Right Hon. Baronet. The average price in
England, in 1832, amounted to 58s. ; the average price
in Dantzic was 385., which, with the duty and freight,
would make it amount, if exported into this country, to
625., at which price, of course, the importer could not
have come into competition with the English grower.
In 1833 the average price of English wheat was 525.
lid. ; the price at Dantzic was 305., which, with
freight and duty of 18s., would make 58s. ; while
the price in England, as he had already said, was
525. 11d. In 1834 the prices were extremely low in both
countries ; the average price in England having been
46s , and the average price at Dantzic having been 355.
The duty and the freight upon Dantzic wheat in that
year would, therefore, have made the price of it imported
into this country amount to 655., and the duty would
have been at the maximum. In 1835 the average price
in England was 355., and in Dantzic 295. ; so that in
that year Dantzic wheat could not have been sold
in this country at less than 595., which, of
course, excluded it from our markets altogether.
In 1836 the price in England was 48s. 6d the price at
Dantzic was 335. 6d.; adding the duty of 20s. to the
freight, the Dantzic wheat could only be sold in Eng-
land at 635., whilst English wheat was selling at 58s.
Again, in 1837 the pri.e in England was 555. 10d.,
whilst the price at Dantzic was 295. 4d., the duty 175.,
and the price at which it would come into the market
565. 4d. No doubt the prices ran very close in that in
stance ; but it must be recollected that there were in that
year continued low prices in this country, and that those
prices were clearly below the prices which would rule
under a free trade or a moderate duty. The Right Hon.
Gentleman (the Vice-President of the Board of Trade)
had furnished him that morning with a return of the
price and time at which certain quantities of grain had
been introduced into the English market. That return
furnished a conclusive mode of ascertaining the price at
which eorn was introduced into England:- He found
that the trade was, in fact, very trifling. In the years
1832, 1833, 1834, and 1837, there was undoubtedly some
wheat introduced at a great loss ; but if Hon. Gentle.
men would consult the paper which had been placed in
their hands that morning, th.,y would see that there was
no corn whatever introdnced into this country under a
duty of 20s. Bd. When the duty was 20s. Bd., the ave-
rage price in England must be between 665.
and 675. Deduct from 665. the 20s. Bd. which
the party would have to pay for duty, and that gave
the price which he received free of duty at 455. 4d.
That was conclusive evidence to his mind, that from
1828 up to that time there had been no extensive im-
portation of foreign corn under 455. Bd. His Hon.
Friend the Member for Lambeth had gone through se-
veral calculations, all leading to the conclusion that 455.
was about the average price, and that was about the
price which was given by the returns. From their own
returns it appeared that the average price of wheat at
Guernsey was 465. a quarter, and at Jersey the price of
foreign wheat since 1828 was 48s. a quarter.
He admitted that too much importance should
not be attached to the average price of corn
in those small islands, but yet it was a remarkable fact
the average prices even in those islands were rather
against than in favour of the calculation. The Right
Hon. Gentleman mentioned the case of Elsinore. He
calculated the prices at which foreign corn might be in-
troduced into England by the prices at which it could be
procured at Elsinore. The Right Hon. Baronet stated
that for the last 25 years, the average price at Elsinore
was 28s. 10d. But it must be remembered that that
was not the average price of Denmark. One might
as well calculate the prices of corn in Russia by the
prices at Riga, or of Prussia by the prices
at • Dantzic, or take the prices at Elsinore for the
whole of the Continent. The average price means the
prices on the whole Continent. But what do the
papers that come out of the hands of the Right Hon.
Baronet himself state ? Again, if the House look at
the Returns from the year 1828, Hon. Members would
find that the prices even in Dantzic from 1828 down te
the present time were above 30s. a quarter, and not 28s.
a quarter, as the Right Hon. Baronet had cal-
culated ; and again, Mr. M‘Gregor stated that
from 30s. to 355. a quarter were the very
lowest, which he considered were the prices of
foreign corn on the Continent. It was admitted that the
price of wheat at Dantzic averaged 365. a quarter.
The Right Mon. Baronet stated that the prices at Elsi-
nore should be taken on an average at 28s. a quarter.
Now he must he a wonderful conjuror-(Laughter)-
if he could explain what could induce a merchant to pre-
fer to go to Dantzic to buy his wheat at 365. a quarter-
to pay a greater rate of freight and insurance upon it at
Dantzic, when he could get the, same description of
wheat at 28s. a quarter at Elsinore.--(Hear, hear.)
To persuade him that whilst the average price of fair
wheat was 365. at Dantzic, there was at Elsinore an in-
terminable stock which would be sufficient to furnish
this country at 285., and swamp the landed interest-
(Hear.)-to persuade him to that, exceeded even the
ability of the Right Hon. Gentleman, because on the
face of it, it was incredible and abstrd.

Sir R. PEEL was understood' to say across the table,
that the statement was Mr. M‘Gregor's.—(Hear.) That
Gentleman said that there was in Denmark an inter-
minable stock.—(Hear.)
Mr. BARING thanked the Hon. Gentleman for the
correction ; but the statement to which he referred was
that of his (Sir R. Peel's) own Mr.• Meek. But he had
understood the Right Hon. Baronet himself to say that
there was an enormous quantity of corn and of cultivable
land, which would be turned into corn land, if the trade
with this country were free. The Right Hon. Baronet
must see that there was some misapprehension arising
out of the use of the word " corn."—(Hear.) That
Hon. Gentleman used it chiefly in reference to wheat.
An Irish Gentleman would understand oats to be meant
by it, and would think from the statement that all the
land in Denmark was to be laid out in the cultivation of
oats.—(Hear, and a laugh.) The Noble Gentleman who
told the House of the inexhaustible resources of Den-
mark, mixed up M'Gregor, Meek, corn, currency, and
Mr. Campbell's Rhymes in one argument.—(Hear, and
a laugh.) The Hon. Gentleman said that 700,000 quarters
could be furnished at Elsinore alone. But the fact
•as, according to the very papers on the authority
of which the statement was made, the utmost that had
been exported from that port was 160,000 quarters, and
the utmost that could be exported of good wheat was
250,000 quarters.—(Hear.) Thus, this great bugbear—
Elsinore—last year it was Odessa—(Hear, hear)—could
furnish at the utmost only 250,000 quarters to swamp
the landed interest of this country ; and Hon. Gentle-
men professed to think that this was to regulate the
prices and the consumption of 26 millions of people.—
(Cheers.) The Right lion. Gentleman, in conclusion,
said that though he had trespassed long upon the House,
he had confined himself entirely to the scale.
Mr. GLADSTONE said he would endeavour to
follow the Right Hon. Gentleman who had just sat
down, in the several points which he entered upon in the
course-of his speech ; and though the Right Hon. Ge-
ntleman had mixed up a great deal of reasoning in a dis-
cussion so dry in itself, he (Mr. Gladstone) would con-
, fine'himself to the naked subject before the House.—
(Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Gentleman said that
the new mode of taking the averages proposed by his
Right Hon. Friend seemed to him to be materially de-
fective ; and he was certainly astonished, to a degree
beyond what any statement he had ever heard in that
House produced in him (Mr. Gladstone), when he per-
' ceived the late President of the Board of Trade giving
some credit to the statement, that the effect produced on
the averages, by the mode of taking them would be no
less than ss. a quarter.—(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Glad-
stone) designated such a statement as one of the grossest
absurdity.--=(erieS of Oh, oh," from the • Opposi-
tion.) He would beg of Hon. Gentlemen to let him
go into details, and show to the Committee the
reasons why he designated the statement of the Right
Hon. Gentleman an asurd one, though he suggested to
the House that it was one worthy of attention.--(Hear,
hear.) It was important that with respect to this ques-
tion the new list of towns should not be mixed up with'
the subject, because the Right Hon. Baronet had very
explicitly declared that if any sensible or serious effect
were produced by the new list of towns which were laid
provisionally on the table, an alter ation would take I
place in them so as to prevent any such effect.—(Hear,
hear.) With regard to the estimate of the Hon. Gen-
tleman who brought forward the proposition that the
averages would be affected not .to an extent of 55,.
but who countenanced two-fifths of that esti-
mate, he (Mr. Gladstone) was prepared to prove
that estimate, even so modified and revised,
was one altogether beyond any rational calculation. 7--
(Hear, hear.) If they took the population of the towns
which now made returns, for the purpose of ascertaining
the averages, they would find that those towns, with the
exception of London, contained a population of 2,500,000,
and with London added, the amount of population was, I
according to the census of 1831, no less than 3,982,000.
The new towns included in the list on the table, had' a
population of 1,623.000, but for the sake of round num-
bers, he would say 1,600,000. He did not pretend
to give the Committee, at the present moment, all the
information which he hoped they would have on
the subject. That information' was in course of prepa-
ration ; and when it was fully before them, he hoped he
would be able to show that 'the estimate advanced,
whether by the Right Hon. Baronet or by the Hon.
Member for Lincolnshire, was altogether unsupported by
reasonable evidence. Ile was now going to test the as-
sertion of his Hon. Friend the Member for Lincolnshire,
that the averagt s w uld be influenced 2a. a quarter in the
whole by the change. But that Hon. Member was not
to be designated an unwilling witness in this matter ; he
believed he was anxious, according to his conscientious
views, to represent the plan of the Government in as
favourable a light to the agricultural interest as he
thought it would bear. So far, therefore, from being sn
unwilling witness, he believed he was willing and eager
to show the farmers of England that the protection came
up, if not quite to his mark, yet to what he thought es-
sential. The population of the new towns was 1,600,000,
and of the old towns 4,000,000 ; that was, the new towns
were to the old as two to five. He could not prove
the precise amount of the corn sold in the new towns, as
there had be' n no account kept, but he would take the
average quantity sold at the same amount per head as
in the old towns. He did not know that any one could
object to that estimate, either that it was too much or
too little, but let them see how it would operate. The
new towns being to the old as two to five, it follows, if
the infusion of new ones raised the agregate average to
-2s. a quarter, that in these new towns, which it was pro- i

posed to insert, the average price of wheat must be
lower, by 7s. a quarter, than in the old ones.—(Hear,
hear.) Was there any man in the Committee, who
would get up and say that he believed this was
likely to be the case? It was a mere matter of arith-
metic. If the new towns were as two to five, and if the
quantity of corn sold in the old towns was 4,000,000
quarters, which was about the quantity given by the
corn inspectors' return, and if two-fifths of that quantity
was to be added, and if the return upon the sum of these
two quantities was 5,600,000 quarters, then it fol-
lowed that before the average could be lowered 25.,
a quarter, on the whole, it must be lowered 7s. a
quarter in the new towns compared with the old ;
and did any one in the Committee believe that this
would be the case?—(Hear, hear.) This, it should be
observed, was in reference to the qualified estimate of
the Hon. Member for Lincolnshire, but how would it
apply to the estimate of the late President of the Board
of Trade? Now, if this calculation were true, it fol-
lowed that the average price of wheat in the new towns
must be 10s. or 12s. more than :in the old towns—a
conclusion that convicted itself. But now he called upon
the Right Hon. Gentleman, who was so severe upon
the Government, to go to the bottom of this matter.
He called upon the late Chancellor of the Exchequer as
a professor of the art of figures—(Laughter)—to show
the reasonableness of the estimate that the average
prices in the new towns would be 7s. less than in the
present. In looking over the new towns it would
be seen, that they had not included the largest
markets, because those towns had already furnished the
averages, but they had taken the next greatest, as centres
of population and consumption, and had made, at least,
a comparative estimate of their sales. They had made
a reference to London and Yorkshire, as the two greatest
centres of consumption, population, and speculation, and
they found that in the beginning of the year 1839, sin-
gularly enough, the prices of wheat, as returned
by the corn inspectors, were actually less than the I
averages of the rest of the kingdom ; and thik in the
latter part of that year the London and Yorkshire aver-
ages rose to 6s. 11d. above the rest of the country.
The Hon. Gentleman then proceeded to read aneaccount
of the prices of corn in the London and Yorkshire mar-
kets, as compared with the prices in other parts of the
kingdom during different weeks in the years 1839, 1840,
and 1841, showing that the prices were sometimes higher.
sometimes lower, in one than ihe other, and sometimes

were the same ; from this he argued, that if any man
had been so credulous as to believe that the
average price of wheat was in one set of towns 7s.
lower than in another set of towns, he hoped he
had laid enough before the House to undeceive such a
one. The Right Hon. Gentlemen then went on to allude
in terms of great exultation to a proposition that he
(Mr. Gladstone) had the honour of stating to the House
in making observations relating to the Colonial trade
for laying a duty of 3s on wheat in Canada. Of the
charges made against him there, however, he was not
the least ashamed.-(Hear.) He certainly was not
learned in these matters, but he could conceive nothing
so monstrous in a country like England, as that an
Executive having made a proposal should be expected to
adhere to it whether it were right or wrong.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL-That's what you say.
Mr. GLADSTONE that was what they said,
and he was not aware that they wished to deny it.-
(A laugh.) The Right Hon. Gentleman had adverted
to the alteration he proposed in the sugar duties, and he
wished to have this considered as an analagous case.
There was no blame attributable to the Right Honour-
able Gentleman for seeing cause for an alteration in the
sugar duties, but what he was to blame for was, that it
was an alteration of a singular character, and one that
was proposed before the House was aware of what it was.
-(Cries of " Oh, oh.") It was printed on the very
morning when the proposed discussion on the resolution
of his Friend the Member for Liverpool was to come on,
and it was laid on the table so late, that it was not in the
hands of Members until a late hour, and his Noble
Friend actually came into the House without knowing
what it was. With regard to this question no one in the
House, he thought, would contend that, with respect to
America, any proposition should be brought forward
which would raise a barrier between that country and
this. If Parliament should choose to lay a purely
nominal duty on the importation from Canada,
he would not venture to pledge himself that it
would not be thought right to adhere to the
duty proposed in his resolution. As questions had been
raised as to the constitutional rights of the House to
make a tax on colonial produce, he might say that a
duty upon American flour from Canada was intended to
be proposed. The Right Hon. Gentleman, after having
alluded to those collateral merits of the great measure,
went on to discuss the merits of the sliding scale. He
selected, as the objects of his sarcasm, the rests intro-
duced in the Ministerial scale. The Right Hon. Gentle-
man did not seem to attach much importance to the level
in the first part of that scale ; but he appeared to
think that he could make a very strong case out
of the level at the other end of the scale. He
showed that, at the very point at which the measure
proposed by the Noble Lord and his colleagues
in 1828, created a rapid descent in the duty, the present
scale would create a level. But what was the effect of
the former accelerated rate of descent in the general
opinion of the country ? It had been, according to the
convictions of every one, attended with the greatest incon-
veniences. But was it an unnatural course that the Go-
vernment should attempt to put an end to these inconve-
niences by removing the cause of them ?-(Hear, hear.)
The Right Hon. Gentleman had asked what was the
meaning of the principle which the Government had
adopted upon this subject. Why, the object must surely
be obvious enough. The object was, when the state of
the markets indicated an approach to rise to induce
parties, if possible, to diminish such an inconvenience by
bringing corn into marks t which they might otherwise
be tempted to keep back. The Right lion. Gentleman
had said that he aimed at that level as indicating an ap-
proach to a fixed duty. But the Right Honourable
Gentleman should have remembered that the Noble Lord
the Member for London, had declared his belief
that a fixed duty should be abandoned when prices rose
to an extreme height ; and with that confession still
ringing in their ears, he (Mr. Gladstone) thought that
the Right Hon. Gentleman should have abstained
from the sarcasms in which he had indulged on
that subject.
Mr. BARING-But what can be said of the level at
the commencement of the scale ?
Mr. GLADSTONE said that at the commencement
of the scale the Right Hon. Gentleman himself had
made very little of the proposed level ; but he referred
to it then when he found that he had got an inconve-
nient answer in the other case.-(Hear, hear, and
laughter on the Ministerial Benches.) But the answer
which he (Mr. Gladstone) would give to the objections of
the Right Hon. Gentleman to the kveLat the commencement
of the scale was, that if that scale applied rationally to the
price, it was but right to establish it; and if it were not right,
the Right Hon. Gentleman should first have proved that posi-
tion. The Right Hon. Gentleman had said that foreign corn
could not be imported until the price reached 693. in this coun.
try; while the Right Hon. Gentleman stated that his (Mr.
Gladstone's) Right Hon. Friend had proposed to secure to the
farmer a price not exceeding from 545. to 58.5. Now he (Mr.
Gladstone) was astonished to find that such a wish had been
ascribed to his Hight Hon. Friend, who had befure emphati-
cally contradicted the assertion that such a wish was entertained
on his part. His Right Hon. Friend had merely said that if
prices could be made to range generally between 545. and 585.,
he thought the farmer would be satisfied ; but he accompanied
that statement with the declaration that it was totally im-
possible to fix any particular price. According to the Right
Hen. Gentleman opposite they would have no trade in corn
until the price reached 60s. Now he (Mr. G.) did not know
whether he would be justified in detaining the Committee by
any speculations, vague as they: necessarily must be,
upon that subject. The Right Hon. Gentleman in his
speech had given them a certain set of figures,
and the Hon. Member for Lincolnshire had given them another
set of figures, each, no doubt, very plausible, but each contra-
dicting the other.-( Hear.) The Bight lion. Gentleman
attempted to demonstrate that they could have no trade in
corn when the price was under 605., while the HOPI. Mem-
ber for Lincolnshire had attempted to show that it would go
very hard with the farmers when prices ranged from 50s. to
535. Now, look briefly into some of the facts of the case.
The documents which presented them with the most valuable
information as to the prices at which wheat could be imported
from abroad were the statements of the Consuls, which appeared
in the report of Mr. Meek. According to that summary they
might import 2,200,000 quarters annually from the Continent, at
a price free in bond of 375. There were three places, however,
at which prices were higher; namely, Riga, Rotterdam, and
Antwerp. But the quantity, which might be imported from
those places did not enter into the aggregate of 2,200,000
quarters. Now they might certainly show that no such quan-
tity as that could be imported, in all probability, when the price
was under 605., after they had made a fair allowance for the profit
of the importer. But small quantities of foreign corn might
he imported at a much lower price. Let them take the two
ports of Odessa and Elsinore, and they would find from the
statement of our Consul a' Elsinore, that 175,000 quarters
might be imported from that port at a price of 335. ; and
150,000 quarters, at a price of 265. 6d., might be imported
from Odessa. Mr. Meek collected his information, of course,
from the Consuls, and it was ridiculous to suppose that on
points of detail any of those gentlemen were to be regarded as
infallible. He was firmly persuaded that Bs. was about the pro-
per sum to be paid for freight. Persons who had every motive for
wishing to extend the foreign trade, agreed that Bs.was a fair aver-
age price. They must not forget, that for Bs. the corn was brought
to the best markets in England, whilst out of the price which
the farmer obtained for his corn, he had to pay the cost of
bringing it to market. In this way there was deducted '2s. or
2s. 6d. from the profit of the British grower. If they took
53. for Elsinore, and 10s. for Odessa, not as comprsing the
whole expense, but the whole excess of expense over the ave-
rage expense to which the British grower was put in bringing
his corn to market, the result was, that there were 150,000
quarters of wheat brought from Odessa into this country at
375. 6d., and 175,000 quarters at 38s. That would give a
price of 40s. for 325,000 quarters of wheat. Now, he had
proceeded upon the evidence to which the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman :had referred • him.-(Cries of " No, no," from the
Opposition benches.) Yes, this was their evidence -( Hear.)
It might have undergone some correction, but it was evidence
furnished by Consuls who were under the sway of the late
Government. It appeared, then, upon the authority of the
Consuls, that they might have 300,000 quarters of wheat
respectl
brought into England at 40s. a quarter, showing, that
with a duty of 165. it might be
withsod a t
to 56 s.
in
Dantzic? the
English market. But what was the
fact
He hoped the Right Hon. Gentleman would not
gentleman of his own choice, and one
Hubbard's authority, a
disown Mr.
who had shown the greatest industry and discrimination.-_
( Hear, hear.) And that gentleman quoted, the average
price at Dantzic, for ten years, as 375. 7d. If they took the
cost of freight, &c., at 55., that would raise the price to 425. ;
so that Dantzic wheat could pay a duty of 155., and yet come
into the British market at 575.-( Hear, hear.) The Right
Hon. Gentleman had taunted them (the IVlinisterial side) with
an indisposition te refer tothe information furni,hed by the agents
of the present Government, and particularly to the report of Mr.
Meek. The Hon. Gentleman had been careful in his own
quotations of Mr.
Meek, when he taunted those Gentlemen
who said that corn was no more than 28s. at Elsinore ; for
Mr. Meek said that the average price of corn wheat at Dantzic
in 25 years had been 28s. ; but he considered that the prospect
of a steadier market for continental corn, by the opening of
the trade with this country, would raise the price to 30s. Now
if they took that calculation, and added to it ss. per quarter
for cost of importation, Dantzic wheat could be landed in Eng-
land at 355., and, paying a duty of lea., could be sold at 535.
-(Hear, hear.) He admitted that this would not be I
in quantities that would materially affect British prices.