The Sun.
London, England, 1845-04-25 00:00:00

avow his determination lo support that Church, and yet adopt '
a line of 'Kiley which would unquestionably lead to its speedy
and utter destruction. The Right Hon. Baronet at the head
of the Government said he introduced this measure for the
purpose of conciliating the Roman Catholics, but did not the
representatives of the Roman Catholic Church (Mr. Sheil
and others) denounce the Protestant Cbnrch in Ireland as
the most intolerable and monstrous of all anomalies, and that
to conciliate the Irish Catholics it was quite clear the Pro-
testant Church establishment there must be overthrown. The
Right Hon. Baronet at the bead of the Government said last
session that he would support the Established Church in Ire-
land which had been established by compact, but he added
this important condition :—" Unless an overwhelming neces-
sity of public policy compels me to change my opinion." He
(Mr. Colquhoun) did not think it would require a very strong
pressure to induce this change in the Right Hon. Gentleman's
sentiments.—( Hear, hear.) So that that Church for which
they had so long, so perseveringly, and so unitedly struggled,
in opposition, must, in the opinion of the Right Hon.,Baronet,
yield to the pressure of public opinion. The condition made
by him was a plank wide enough for any Ministry
on that side of the House to join with the
Honourable Members for Sheffield and Montrose,
and sweep away the Protestant Church in Ireland. He had
heard with surprise and regret a portion of the speech of the
Right Horn. Baronet at the head of the Government, and did
not think it wise or prudent for a Minister of the Crown to
utter—he spoke of the difficulties with which the Government
of Ireland was beset—the combinations which existed there—
and in two sentences after, alluded to " the threatening clouds
on the other side of the Atlantic ;" and further, that he reflected
with satisfaction that before the arrival of news of a hostile aspect
from America, a message of peace had been sent to Ireland.—
( Rear, hear). If it were right to establish Maynooth, let
them do it; but let him not attempt to fetter his judgment by
such terror.--( Hear, hear). Such language might suit the
Conciliation Hall, but hardly became a British Minister. Nor
was it at all suited to conviece the Howe of Commons. The
French. papers, in discussing the Maynooth Bill, said it A as a
concession to Irish agitation. If there were differences with
America or France, he felt sure that all parties in that House
would unite in assisting the Government to take that course
whiah became the honour, the interest, and the dignity of
England. The Noble Lord, no doubt, was quite sure that he
should be unwcrthy the confidence of a: great party, and un-
worthy that name which had never been stained by the impu-
tation of cowardice, if he came down to that House, and said
that, though he could not overcome the arguments and the rea-
soning of his Hon. Friend, pointing to the wars threatening in
the east and west, he should appeal to their fears of the disasters
they were about to encounter. The poorest labourer in the
country would put on the garb of a soldier sooner than submit
to it.—(Hear, hear.) He held in his hand a statement which
was made in the Freeman's Journal, the organ of the Irish
priesthood, and he found the language contained in it to be
this :—" The English yield (this valuable boon, no) this paltry
' civility, with an agony as ifshe were yielding her life. The con-
cession which the grant foreshadows has not been won by
cringing, or by giving any servile gratitude for benefits which
she has won herself." These were the expectations of political
gratitude which they ought to entertain for the boon which they
were now conferring, and this boon would lead immediately to
further and much greater concessions. The Members for
Newcastle and Edinburgh complained of the union of all classes
of Protestant Dissenters on this subject, and the Hon. Mem-
ber for Sheffield told them, if they took twenty-six thousand
pounds from the property of the Established Church in Ire-
land, it would put an end to their complaints, and assuage the
Irish people. If the position taken by the Dissenters was only
a mercenary one, their opposition could not be so heating or
strenuous. The objections of the Dissenters to their giving
anything to the Roman Catholic establishment were these :
They objected on two grounds; they objected to it on ac-
count of the voluntary principle, aad also on account of their
dissent on religious matters. The Hon. Member for Dungarvon
complained that the Church of Scotland had been made a free
church. Let him tell the Honourable Gentleman the grounds
on which that part of the Presbyterian Church became free.
Was it not, because when they came to the House they refused
them the supremacy they looked for, and yet they saw them
giving to the Roman Catholic Church what they refused to the
free church ? On these grounds they opposed the grant to
Maynooth. Honourable Members complained of their dread
of being extravagant, but were they to pare down the feelings
of hard-working, honest Englishmen to their principles ? And
were they to say to them that they should not come before
the House with petitions expressing their feelings in whatever
language they pleased ?—( Hear, hear.) They also complained
of the speeches that were made at meetings to petition against
the Maynooth grant ; but if they referred to the proceedings
at Covent Garden they might find Honourable Members
at the other side of the House making speeches
in not the most mild or most temperate language.—
( Hear, hear.) He, himself was attacked for having taken
the chair at one of those meetings, but he did not think that
he or any other chairman woulal be responsible for all that had
been said at a public meeting. If so, they should give up
public meetings altogether. They would pot be deterred, he
would tell the Hon Member for Sheffield, by any lapse from
principle on the part of the Government, from supporting their
own sober convictions. When be heard the sketch given last
night by the Hon. Member for Edinburgh. of the history of
Ireland, he could not help thinking of one of those words by
which Mr. O'Connell often was in the habit of appealing to
the passions of his Irish auditors when he denominate.! the Irish
opposed to him, and the English opposed to him, as "Saxons."
And if they referred to the national songs, they would find that
word " Saxon " occurring frequently in the songs which were
at this day circulated in every part of Ireland. There could
not be a doubt that the Saxons, as he called them, occupied Ire-
land by successive invasions, and planted their foot on Celtic
soil ; but the conduct of these foreign landlords was anythiit
bet politic or wise; they kept down the Irish Celt by severe
and cruel laws. inflicted on him harsh exactions, and took no
pains in his social or moral improvement. And as for the Irish
Church being a church fed with wealth, it was a church which
was starved to absolute inanition up to the last fifty years, by
the same selfishness of the Irish landed proprietors; but then
same a better age, that awoke the leople to a consciousness of
their duties, and the Church then returned from the position to
which it had fallen, until it came at last to a more healthy and
better condition, which was within the last fifty years. They
could not have a better link between them and the people at
this time, than the labours of men of zeal, men of education,
and men of charity, disehargin,e- their benevolent duties in the
heart of a wild and rude nation. He hail seen
an example of this when he.visited the residence of his Hon.
Friend the Member for Bandon, in the neighbourhood of
which place Roman Catholics were scattered through a very
wide district. Ile recollected accompanying a man who was
at present aalignitary of the Irish Church, and who was then
rather advanced in years, having spent a bon life and buried
great talents in an ob.cure and charitable object, through these
districts, and he could not forget how he was received by those
very Roman Catholics ; the termer desisted from his labour,
the cottage was opened, and the parent and child,whom he had
relieved from distress, rose to receive him, and he saw that
there was one great catholicity of benevolence and kindness
triumphant over all, welding together discordant creeds and
discordant feelings in one b ins! of true and lasting attachment.
If ever they did away with that Church, and neglected those
men, the truest link between them and the population that
surrounded them, then he would say that the best days
of Ireland's prosperity were numbered. On these grounds he
would for ever defend the maintenance of the Irish Church.
and should give to the motion of the Hon. Member fur Shef-
field the most strenuous opposition.
Mr. BATESON said that be, as an Irish Protestant and a
member of the Established Church of that country, felt him-
self compelled, by a sense of duty, to raise his feeble voice
against the monstrous and iniquitous measure proposed by the
Hen. Member for Sheffield. He felt opposed to it on the
grounds of its great injustice. He thought that he (Mr.
Bateson) had as much right to come down to the House and
propose that the property of the Right lion. Gentleman (Mr.
Ward) should be devoted to the Roman Catholic clergy for
educational purposes, as he had to come and make this motion.
The honour of that House was pledged to keep the compact un-
touched and inviolate. He hoped, however, that this liberality
would not be one-sided, and he trusted that the Right Hon.
Baronet at the head of the Government would take into his
consideration the claims of the Unitarians of Ulster, and would
render them as much pecuniary assistance as would enable
them to carry out their objects. They were about to endow
3faynoeth College liberally, and already they had passed the
Charitable Bequests Act. And why did they do ail this, but
on the shallow• pretence of conciliation ? Ilut what had
been the result of this conciliation? Why, the demands
of the kloman Catholics had been increased, and the lion.
Member for Dungarvon went so far as to say, they would not
he satisfied until they were placed on a footing with the Pro-
testants of Trinity College. The House had been told that
the root of all evil was the Protestant Church. Now, as a
Protestant landlord and a Protestant soldier, he repudiated all
those assertions. But let any Hon Member in that llonse
get up and tell him, from the bottom of his heart, that the
Protestant Church was either a curse or an injury to Ireland.
No, he defied any Hon. Member to prove anything of the sort.
The Church, instead of being a cfrse, was a great benefit and
blessing to Ireland.
Mr. BARING was anxious to explain, in a few words, the
vote he was about to give on the present occasion, and he was
anxious that the House should bear with him 'for a few mo-
ments while he stated the grounds upon which he was pre-
pared to, vote with the Right Hon. Baronet opposite, and op-
pvsse the motion of his Hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield.
fie felt compelled to address the House, because his Right Hon.
Filencl the Member for Edinburgh. in his able speech last
night, stated that the House was divided on this question into two
raa:ties-,tiemeli, those who were prepared to vote with his Hon.
Friend, and those who were ready to vote against hint, and to
say.thal the property of the Irish Church should be maintained
inviolate. Now' although he should vote against the motion
elf his'lronourable Friend, he was not prepared to be included
in the latter category. He did not consider that by supporting
the Bill as it now stood he was precluded hereafter from
cping into its principle, and the principle upon which Irish the
hurch ought to be maintained. He believed the Bill of the
, cievernment would prove a great boon and benefit to Ireland,
"44114:e.was therefore earnestly desirous that it should, in its
rll4-ibein, be carried into effect, and in doing so he did not
Z,"_4!_l_te was opposing either his former opinions or principles.
not bound und to support an amendment brought forward
by
course
own party when he thought it was to injure
Friend
vagie. which he wished to pursue. His Hon.
froui bath
sagoa?r o pose d that they should withdraw all
ssspport
aspittion of his Hon. g • lishments in Ireland. That was the
,that opinion still, of three years ago, and whether he re-
tainedsay. .Well, two years a o course, he (Mr. Baring) could not
he wished to withdraw all support
'from the two establishments.
:pay all.or
what I said was,
WA—NO.;
" If you pay the Church,
pay RMnone."
Mr.. BARING continued—Athoaull events he was correct
not in the particular
in the sense of his Hon. Friend,
'expression; but be that as it might, hegr
himselfod believed the Bill
nue! great benefit in
cos be a practical proposition, likely to
practical man ought to
:Ireland, and he-thought the course of Pa
m. measure, than
tile rather to support what was in realit Pa
good
be, was at
• upport a resolution which, however wise
it events very ill-timed. Entertaining these views, s, he was
riot prepared to throw any difficulty in the way of'e the Govern_
of common sensethenwmust know
anent measure. Everybody
that they could not pass the Bill into a law if the
a o It the-proposal of his Hon. Friend the MembererfoertoSaffix
j-eld. His Honourable Friend, however, with perfect franknesshef"
It &tared that he did not bring forward his measure to
c bstruct the principle of the Bill, but for the sake of introduc
eg and laying down a great principle. His Hon. Friend saidt was the first step taken in a course which would hereafter
f ,ave to-be more extensively carried out; and it was, therefore,
.st elvisable that they should sketch out the principles by which
t were always to be guided in that course. But did his
fin. Friend tell him what those great principles were ? If
et :see was-any advantage to be obtained in making these princi-
F 'es known to the people of England, they should at any rate
• lake them intelligible and distinct. He could not understand
o hat the particular principles were which his Honour-
O tile Friend wished to enunciate in his amendment.—
( lean ) If the endowment of the Catholic Church was to
b .1-considered as the principle, what did it matter whether it
to ere endowed from the Consolidated Fund or from the (uncle
a the Established Church ? That question might be reserved
Ae. after; consideration. If it was expedient to state some
p iticiple to the -people of England,- -by which they would
b noafter be guided, of course it was no less expedient that
they should state that principle clearly and distinctly, but he
a 'dossed the present was not the most favourable period
fe r laying those principles down. He was not surprised at the
difference of opinion which reigned on his own side of the
Blouse. It was one of the great difficulties of legislating on
sock a subject. Was it then advisable to lay down at that
mouissit, and while the House was in this state