The Sun.
London, England, 1842-06-25 00:00:00

tion to the Poor law Commissioners upon the subject, or in
inviting the attendant c of the Assistant Commmissioners for
the purpose of aiding the Keightley Guardians—if the
Honourable Gentleman had taken such a course he
(Sir Robert Pet]) could not. help thinking that, upon
the whole, he would have done mere to advance the
interests, and to promote the comforts of the poor, than he was
likely to (1J by offering so vigorous an opposition to the progress
of tie new law. lie could not but believe, from the declarations
of the Hon. Gentleman, from the earnestness of his manner,
that he must be a humane and considerate man; but he could
not held thinking, at the same time, that those facts must have
escaned his notice, although he was himself the Chairman of the
Board of Guardians of die Union. He could not help thinking
that the lion. Gentleman who made such earnest appeals to
Christian charity, and who hail so earnestly exhorted them to
respect the rights of the Ivor, must have been ignorant of those
abominations which had taken place under the old law. The
abuses which had been brought to light, suggested to him the
possibility that similar occurrences had taken place in other
unions, and he could not help thinking that many Hon. Gentle-
men were ignorant of the real state of the case ; and that the vi-
gilance and superintendence of the Commissioners were required
for the present, at least, in order to take cognizance of such
facts as lie had adduced. These were the grounds upon which
he gave his support to the r eve law. He did so, as
he had already said, in the year 1837, not from
considerationa of the expense which it saved,
although he should say at the same time that to take from the,
indiettious the means of supporting the idle was an act of
grievous oppression, injurious its every respect, tending to pre-
judice him who contributed to the poor rate, and creating in him
who received an unprofitable and improvident relief, habits of
idleness, and destroying that feeling of self•dependere e, which
after all, and in spite of all their enactments, must be the great
security to the working-classes against abject poverty and dis-
tress.—( Hear, hear.) With these feelings he could not ac-
quiesce in the proposal for a further delay of a final settlement
of the question. lie believed that the.sense of the House was
favour of the measure introduced by her Majesty's Govern-
ment. To the sense of the House her Majesty's Government
would look for support ; they would steadily adhere to
the proposal they had made.—( Hear, hear.) lie would
repeat the hope with which he had commenced that,
after the feelings of the majority of the House should be de-
clared or a divisasn in favour of the law, the minority would
take the course which, in his humble judgment, it was always
the duty of a minority to pursue--that while they protested
against the decision, they would be ready to acknowledge that
submission to it was the only course which it was open for
them to adopt. —( Cheers. )
Air. FERRAND wished to explain in reference to the ex-
tracts relative to the Union of Keightley, read by the Right
lion. Baronet, that since the New Poor-law hail been passed,
be (Dlr. Ferranti) had ceased to take the slightest interest in
the carrying out of that law. lie had neven taken any part in
the operation of the measure, unless when he happened
to be requested by the poor persons to interfere in their behalf.
He had further to state, that he believed there were many errors
in the report of Mr. Alott, arid he trusted that the Guardians
of Keightley would be able to clear themselves from the asper-
sions thrown out against them in the Report.
Lord HOWICK said that he had heard with great satisfac-
tion the speech of the Right lion. Baronet at the head of the
Government, as well as that made by the Right Hon. Gentle-
' man, the Secretary fur the Home Department, at an earlier
part of the evening. The time was come, in his opinion, when
the House should decide whether or not they would continue
the powers of the Commissioners. He believed that those
powers were indispensably necessary for duly carrying out the
law ; and he agreed with the Right lion. Baronet (the Secre-
tary fur the Hume Department), that the necessity for the
superintendence of the Commissioners was greater than ever,
at a time like the present, when such general distress prevailed
throughout the country. The arguments which had beers used
in favour of a relaxation of the present law might be urged at
all times when employment was scarce, and the price of provi-
sions high. He agreed with those who contended that a great
re,iet would he felt from an ample relaxation of the Corn-laws,
but lie was still of opinion that no modification of the Poor-
laws could effect any gt eat improvement in the condition of the
poor. He wished to ask, however, whether funds, to which
the Right. Hon. Baronet himself had been a contributor—he
spore of the Right Hon. Baronet, the First Lord of the Trea-
sury—he asked it that Right lion. Baronet had not contributed
largely to funds for the support of candidates who made it the
greatest ground of their claim to popular support that they were
opposed to the New Poor-law ? The Right Hon. Baronet, the
Seeretary for the home Department.--( Loud cries of " Ques-
sion, question," and" Divide, divide.") lie would riot take
the trouble of following the Right Hen. Baronet through all
Ins speeches. He would not follow the followers of the Right
lion. Baronet into all the details of the Bill before the House.
lie would remain satisfied with the declaration of the Govern-
ment that they would maintain the existing law, and he would
give them all the support in his power.—(Loud cries of " Di-
vide, divide."
Sir E. KNATBIIBULL should not have detained the
House had he not been almost compelled to do so by the
speech that had been addressed to it. It had been stated that
he formerly opposed the measure, and lie was reproached with
being a Member of the Government who promoted it. This
was ass error ; he approved of the principles of the Bill, and in
the discussion of the details he had acted independently ; gene-
rally, many voted in support of them, except on the clause of
out-door relief. It was clear the Noble Lord had not risen for
the purpose of discussing the question, but had introduced fresh
topics that had no reference to it. Such topics he had better
have avoided, and he regretted the course he had taken. He
had always given his opinion in favour of the general principles
of the measure.—(" Divide, divide.")
Air. DARBY addressed the House amid much confu-
sion and cries of " Divide." He had been accused
of ceasing to speak on this subject. lie had done so,
frosts wishing to see what the Government would propose; the
Noble Lord had better look to his own side of the House, and
see whether there was not agitation on this subject there.—
(Divide, question.) He had always said that as the House had
sanctioned the principle of the Bill, they must maintain it,
or the whole system would be left in contusion. The only dif-
ficulty he had was with respect to applying the out-door test
to labourers thrown out of employ, and when a slight modifi-
r at ion of it was proposed, he had at once accepted it.—(Divide,
divide.) Ile should do as he had always done, vote for the
ILA, and reserve himself as to the modifications of details that
might be required.
Captain POLHILL would vote against the motion. The
principle having been sanctioned, any unnecessary delay vas
unjust to the House, and, to the country. There would be
plenty of opportunities of discussing the objectionable parts in
Committee, but he thought the sooner they gut into Committee
the belt( r.
Air. O'CONNELL said when the Hon. Alember for Roch-
dale proposed his motion for postponing the Poor-law Bill for
six months, lie was taunted by the Right lion. Baronet, as if,
being an Irishman, he had done something not exactly correct
in taking so strong a part in opposition to it. He (Alr. O'C.)
was liable to the same reproach, and still snore strongly titan
the Hon. Member, for he represented an Irish constituency,
and what was still worse, the argument he was going to advance
to the House was entirely drawn from Ireland. It might,
perhaps, not be very persuasive with the House, but
the justification he should use fur the course he was about
to adopt. lie should support the motion, because the Poor-law
in Ireland was an experiment ; that law was not recommended
by any abuses in a pre-existing law in that country, as it was
introduced there for the first time. He had then opposed it,
and stood almost alone in his opposition. But when it was
once passed he had endeavoured to give it every assistance by
his co-operation ; he had ventured to prophesy that it was a law
not suited to the situation of Ireland, and he feared that his
prediction would be unfortunately verified. He really felt
bound to say that he looked with great apprehension to
the future in that country from the operation of the law.
The moment they taxed the peasantry of Ireland and made
them pay in advance for their landlords, from that moment
he Was convinced that they would see the spirit of resistance
awakened stronger than ever they had yet seen in This might
seem exaggerated; but from his knowledge of the country he
apprehended an insurrectionary movement more violent in its
character than any that had yet occurred. Having this feeling,
he naturally wished that the Bill should be postponed for an-
other Dear, as by that time the experiment in Ireland would be
completed. They would then have the interest of England
bound up with the interest of Ireland on this subject,
and a more attentive consideration would then be given
to the Irish law, and the claims of Ireland, than it HOW re-
ceived. The experiment in Ireland had not beets satisfactorily
made ; he felt dissatisfied nith the Poor-law Commission in
that country. Their duty was to preserve the strictest neu-
trality between the various divided interests and differences,
political anti religious. The impression on his mind was, that
that neutrality had not been preserved. Even if his uttering
that expression here should act as a caution hereafter, he should
have done some good by giving that caution thus publicly.
It was on the ground of his anxiety that. Ireland should have
the advantage of the discussion on the English law, to come
in aid of that on the Irish law, which must come on next
year, that he wished this measure to be deferred. Many per-
sons had taunted him with his opposition to the Irish law ; if
he had supported the principle that every destitute person in
Ireland was entitled to support, he believed that he should have
raised a much greater storm ; but he had not taken that posi-
tion. Those who were most violent against him for opposing
that measure at the time, had joined with him now, amid had
expressed their 'egret for the manner in which they had
treated him on account of his opposition. They now agreed
with his that nothing could be more unhappy than that an
opinion should get abroad of the want of perfect neutrality on
the part of the Poor-law Commissioners in Ireland ; and with
this feeling he should vote for the motion of the lien. Gen-
tleman.

Captain PECHELL said he wished to say a few words in
explanation. The Hon. Gentleman opposite had alluded to
what he (Captain Peehell) had said on a former occasion. He
made the charge that the paymasters of the forces were against
the commission. In support of that, he mentioned the circum-
stance, which he took from the "Westminster Review," that
in 1837 when it was proposed to extend the Bill to 1843 or to
1846, they voted for the shorter period. He thought that was
some justification of his statement.

Lord ELIOT said he felt bound to protest against the very
unfair attack which the Right lion. and Learned Gentleman
oppo,ite (Mr. O'Connell) had made upon the Poor-law Com-
mission in Ireland. The experiment, so far as it had been tried,
had in fact been eminently successful. It was predicted that
as soon as the workhoeses were opened, they would be crowded
with aisle-bodied labourers. Now the fact was precisely
the reverse. There were few of the able-bodied , but
a vast number of the aged and infirm. One hun-
dred workhouses were already completed, and the
whole number, one hundred and thirty, would be completed in
the course of the ensuing year. He gave full credit to the
Hight Hon. Gentleman for not having shown a desire to defeat
the Poor-law. Instead of opposing the law, he had used all
his influence in the contrary direction, and he hoped that that
influence would still be exerted for the purpose of affording it
a fair trial. _ _

Lord SANDON supported the motion of the Hon. Member
for Finsbury. He thought it was very desirable that the
powers of the Commissioners should be continued for the pre-
sent under the control of public opinion. It was highly de-
sirable that that they should have another year's experience of
the working of the system before they extonded the Commis-
sion to five years.

Mr. COB-DEN said he thought the House had rather lost
sight of the Hon. Gentleman's motion. The Hon. Gentleman
had alluded to the state of the country. Now he (Mr. C.)
wished to call the attention of the House to the fact, that,
though they had been sitting nearly six months, they had not
thought proper to devote one evening to the consideration of
the distresses of the people, with a view of finding a specific
remedy. He would ask Hon.i Gentlemen, even in their most
reckless moods, whether they thought there was either safety
or policy in such a course.—(Cries of " Oh, oh.") The Right
lion. Baronet took office with a distinct promise that he should
find a remedy for the distresses of the country.—(Expressions
of dissent.) He supposed those expressions were intended as
a denial. The Right lion. Baronet distinctly promised that he
would prescribe when he had got his fee.—(Cries of " Que'-
tion, question.") It was tine question. The Right Hon.
Baronet took office with a promise that when he had time to con-
sider the distresses of the country, he would prescribe remedialariff.)
measures for them. Had he done so?—( Cries of " t
"Question.")
Question. )
in which would benefit the poor ?—( Loud criesd
no
How many articles were there out of the 7.50 the reduction
He could assure Hon. Gentlemen that hehl!a
himself concerned it
dress the House, but as far as he wass
any ri!sir.c to ad-
dress those noises.
would be utterly useless to assail him
Yartairs of the country, but
It might be thought that a victory
argument or debate would settle with
gained in that House in
it was far otherwise. He received
hat the distress which existed w
accounts daily from all parts
of the country, stating ,that h when
namingjilt°office
had presentCrovernmat were