The Sun.
London, England, 1845-05-20 00:00:00

that the priests of Maynooth were taken from the very
lowest stations in society, and that the fare they got at
MMaynooth was as good as what they were accus-
tomed to at home. He could not conceive how
in
at a an assembly of Christian men it could be objected
4 thn education essentially apostolical was unmerited
the priests of Maynooth. It was an important ques-
tion which might be put, on looking at the degraded
state
blished in
of our vast manufacturing and rural districts,
el• Which has character of a Christian Church, "nit of the teachingof the Protestant Church as este•
England, or that of the Roman Catholic
Chu up to within a few years since proscribed in
Ireland'?" B thi measure England would withdraw
the Irish froraTagitaation ; and, more than that, would
Irish
educate the people, for they would much more
Iftebably accept the social benefits of either sectarian or
Zilgious elevation through the ministers of their faith,
e an all the attempts of educational boards. He had
ueen disposed rather to look at the question as one of state
Pat liel and undeniable justice, than on the ground_ of
he(.°4tt•--(llear, hear.) Still, on that point also,
ee eonceived it might easily be urged in consonance
••Itil just reason and-equity. The seventh article of the
tea°
, a provided for the amalgamation of the two coeti,-
qtl b religious concessions and charitable endowments.
ltienottivapeipr.s.lest
,e quesio, therefore, became narrowed to the one,
*bother that amalgamation should be effected under the
agreed on. Whether they would make a
Plat to which they were solemnly pledged, and to go
make a grant commensurate with the re-
at-ements of an increasing population. And. why
enoduld they not? They had given the Presbyterians an
seetZtnent for their church, they find given to the Dm-
Ceeel regturn
of, they had joined the Prussian
refe:4 on the faith of a convention_, and were they to
thee"' t Ireland, the poorest, the most needy of
wece, i, that measure of justice and assistance
torrselitndeeyhthad unhesitatingly accorded to others? They
of justice to Ireland, not only upon con-
% tl,of political—not upon grounds of expediency. .otr
%mediation, or past neglect, but upon the posit lye men s
_ et, rryiees of Ireland. The Irish had claims upon
be" in regard for services such as no other people
ere anrPassed, services in war, whether rendered by her
heldte-rhter navy services which seconding those of
of : nad secured her lc
glory and the safety
rviztre-tlin:rehy ; and for such services she claimed and
, , common justice of England ; and while ad-
Itedni? *413 pride and admiration to the services of Ire-
", ' la would express his disbelief of the libel put for-
te 0„"! the Pretended friends of that country, that if
stand fort occurred, they would not, as heretofore,
elm, ::rth the
champions of the British Crown. That
Was a lib ,rated with disgust ; but be it remembered, it
hoe itibel eet
Put forth by any Saxon, and he would
Plee--ets Publisher to answer for it to the Irish pen:
ileeted war a.) Protestantism was in E-igland con
Cathoji --` eneoblin associations ; but how had the
only as °ls Ireland
end in, the rase 1--enown it ? They had known. itn
ee,-"IlOn of those who imposed persecution
vi,oleteeset,i-11Pon them, who framed a treaty only to
1,8401 -•"`L abjure it—who enacted a penal code to
rotesta
- e arad,,, oPpress them. Such, till lately, the
land ; hell; Church hai been recognised in Ire-
!lteetion bee-rI3"Y a brighter period had arisen—a gene-
tetd - aPrang up evincing a spirit of kindliness,
to eh f that bitter animosity which bad previously
It -*esn3iPation characterised and disgraced the country.
lhooleal"t important that the Irish Roman Catholics
Itee not misapprehend the present feeling of En.g-
tarberae rda them, nor mistake the ripple that dis-
ace% the river, for' the tide which characterised the
thatthaeLand he would impress upon them the. truth,
le-7 I°ner
lee Wee .. English tyranny but Irish agitation was
e -° improvement in that country.—(Cheers.)
titeltl'ellerally disinclined to impress his opinions on
these °ese, and his difficulties were now increased by
Ile hwajoh surrounded the question.—(Hear, hear.)
ley MI however, thought it his duty, f
'laver did he
assert his present conviction, eaannd
seill44: 4,
:81leeou4nrgtreyan opinion or give a vote. more
ti.
tteets trance with his sense of duty towards his eons t-
end with the dictates of his con-
trhioe,e• Ile gave' that vote in favour of a measure
libert he regarded as the precursor of civil mid religious
I% Ythien a more extended and truthful sense. In the
441' Confident belief that it was calculated to silence
it aiLint and allay division, and if the course, of wh_ie.h
..
rises ilarred tlae earnest, were carried out in all its tut
Irlitt_ ,d Perfection, he anticipated confidently the time
egs'ewitthoUt the acerbities of past injustice or the
eltterit„")°, just remorse, the two countries would with
°f Grey addressed as " The United Kingdom
a e„,-zi.dtain and Ireland."—(Loud cheering.)
e`ae feel'a ANGLES felt that in the present case all
•gatserj and arguraents were in favour of this
teve,e`• (Rear.) It was said that they ought to
teee';: Ireland upon Protestant principles. He repudiated
‘l„,liveeitioetrine, although he was as zealous a Protestant
„.''' the: lie thought they ought not to deprive Ireland
'ators-'e associations and that religion which their an
that the
ross_ "ad be ue thed to them. He believed
bv-'atattt I • ci a
ins grip . lash Church, instead of strengthening
e th Ping at everything, was weakenin its
ears the
structure itself
-rtlteessPstettest degree. For three hundredy
the
y s Church in Ireland had bad in its hands the
;a'"? tri°wlnents of that Church, andwhat was it
yet
hundred
'"ltrs ae7ar less influential than it was three
an
nay --°. It was, in fact, a Church supported. by _
nlt Ng 20,000 in' en, in order that the ministers of
‘'hureh i• enjoy their benefices. He believed the
or the ~. of Ireland was the principal grievance
the 6rrish people, and was one of the great causes of
not seer that were committed in that country. He did
etuse, te:w the Dissenters could object to the grant, ee.-
lAted in the°°%ht to remember their ancestors partici-
eth,ii.t be eeZtlette%ls
he
the people of Ireland. They
the • Pc)eYets, in ord
_ ie.
e,„,, Juries that . er e was, t put their hands into
Ireland.
h to afford but a poor restitution for
4" had henr,; go been done to the people of .
itseftaenia.hinen-r ofll °11°"-rable Gentlemene speaking with
peeiere_tand. what, the ingratitude of of the people
of m;cl by this he would ask, was the course
pe,ilrieerely reitieountry towards them but that
And were the
rain roof Ireland ototingi,,
4tl,B,,,expect thu e g rfit efu injustice.or that ? It was in
itie •"eY were a the Irish people_ would be grateful
le beeesteeen . ccorded a full and entire measure of
i. ad heard g It
never do.
out by instalments would
ie, religion ofw* regret comparisons drawn between
::tttors, Re,
atheir Roman Catholic b retbe and
to Ma-
etereeltnisret //inflect_heard that religionlikened
4 .1). But uooism, and other systems of idolatrous
le would , risuch as he deprecated such comparisons,
• keerriaer staitnY'enhtat, the Government of this country taken
te-'llO5 Of /_,. the endowments of the Mahometansteer
`brae
msula, and applied them to the sepport of
to-
le ;Lards thterinreh, he should feel justified in acting
7-Ve °I hone the same way as he would act towardtns
the rAlla of Ireland If they had power to re to
es'atY support it
their endowments, then he should cer-
tootliedisieueztthlt, but as they bad not that power, he
40 ma Join
the Government in supporting the grant
f
Ittni. Ita an instalment of justice to the people o
tolite *o
fl..t-e whole-OTT said that, having listened attentively
-.4 ad e
the subject
Etee_ euate that had taken place in that House
eee erginteseect, aro
it having heard many debates in which
1714ts,,sey helt_ctreponderated greatly on one side, he
kr4a.. eilte of" never been present at one in which the
who opposed.'''arathe opposition told so much in favour of the
11,,,..1,1 ,_ Many of the Honourable Members
Ur' th '..."a part aninst this measure had dwelt
his :at 11 arpe„ I. ' bofpublic esaPP 'cation the money to
its
4en 5 sown fbiethe Roman Catholic religion. It
Y b3' thousands out of doors, and by
114114;i4414:1.,44110711.011:a Members in that House, upon
het t°Ppo • • 110 w, he should like those who rested
on this ground to draw the distinction
prilillow proposed of 9,0001., as already given, and 27,000.1
It ~,,eeiPebel)tlsed• He could not see any difference in
14.'4 Wreejeen the present and the smaller grant—
if bettelife‘tt°ol?Ply 27,0001. to Maynooth College,h i
Lee eb.°-eet eke eF to vote 9,000/. The Hon. 11.1 em er
su a -4"lbt' - "lakes) had rested his opposition on
fie -e0 teee.4l that se
--4 people of England were opposed
e.,11:1 theillt:ele• In of this, he (Mr. Escott) be-
the e dope „, oeernber of that H mse could commit a
Ike_
suot believe act than to vote for its rejection. He
471 to i, e're that any class of the people were op-
b.,. If ,0,11,4 believed the clergy were not opposedt toe
slid frnwe_nere were their petitions ? Where was h law where w of which so much had. been
tie deelierineeere the petitions from the deaneries and
ht Sd littei' against the passing of this Bill Td
L0a.„.44744.40; liwtyl,Y:tuiPeastsoeride anbrouttwtnenwdanyws in the country, and
h pod to the
ke4' la ec, "'le one of the best porterssupp of it he had
Bound, 1440 t with was a clergyman of the Church of
their tY Were , Was satisfied that the people of thiss
souse r belief In favour of this measure, because it was
not hotrtrtetellwathit would benefit the people of Ireland..
the ti 7 3' the __, 0 opposed this measure were agatisonstf
tol lliar, c'nuownsent of a college for the pries
4:heferailtierileewaetiinitiltholics of Ireland, but even against the
thettr,tireeeeof th religion itself. That course had
• `sro '7 Meatdad f 1 d Ihdb ntried during
ti period,abluet it had faailedeeto put down thde peeest the t une religion. That faith had triumphed
-tritte ' Yranhy which had been then attempted to
11114,1°,11,, kict`unThe Hon. Member for the University of
inse did L thmk it proper to take away the 9,000/. ;
leer„e 4edhe Denot, surely it was no more than just
Roman
Catholic population of Ireland had
No that
ene.4l two and a half millions to seven millions
eeted fee',_'__ 9f 9,000/. was first granted, that an ind-
047rue:elm
wulttlt should be now given for their enlarge
a Ostki; shilliants' It was not so much as a question of
ereetseret in %, and pence that he supported it, but as
Nielvili t° bale a language of the first Minister of the
f -tri,s ' 4 11P a temple of peace between the two
°I. he ' • tte did not look upon it as a final measure,
Which was 110 said
all . 144 , pporter of the miserable finality policy
kstilartideleuroken up the previous Government, but as
• . sm,t,lt ofjustice to lay the foundation of freedom,
Istdoskee" • good will throughout the United
belt to the (near, hear.) It was said that we should
411eeted,
_Present proceedings of the Roman Catholics of
4 iee_a proof that the object sought to be obtained
1411 the l'atnure had failed. Instead of being satisfied
Of nad weentsiire, it was said the Roman Catholics of
en.else
,__,c.l rest short of nothing but the wild scheme
f 411 tries peal °f the
c't Co • bUt hew Le Union between the two
thet Cork and „ o say—though the Hoe. Member
,ePelie_seidlose who followed him, no doubt adopted
te'eable he" was sure the great body of the good and
Cdo '1)414,e444n Catholics of Ireland sympathised with
alk" Lathe ' expressed by the Hon. Member for Arun-
those of the lion. Member for
ie %lie r eealuag with the members of the Roman
t,th all lai,joh, he would remind the House,
4014171%
bettattiftetrra of this kind, " to do unto
sre,7:e The eY would that others should do unto
as . Protestants, should consider what
beat 44 eqh . feelines if' Placed in the position of their
thee, °lle brethbren, and the Government- refused to
•Iniel -"' or, t,hatjust and enlightened principle. They
%et recolle
kei they were rode that it was to the Roman Catholic faith
ee,e,Ptlb snisindebted for the foundation of their colleges
act ;ht h4t Ika! ; th by it their Bible had been pre-
‘o It tt.
—6at Y had been under obligations for

rainy of their most excellent statutes and liberties ; and
that its generositv and munificence in works of
charity and benele'tnce were attested by a cloud
of witnesses.—(Hear.) All these were illustratioras
of its past greatness. They sliould, therefore, as mem-
bers of the Protestant Church, and as members of the
United Kingdom, concede to the people of Ireland
this measure of justice. He thanked the Ministers for
the measure. He rejoiced at its introduction, as he
thought it was calculated to serve the best interests of
that country. Let them carry forward the good work of
justice in the liberal and enlightened spirit in which
they had begun, and the time would come when those
who opposed the measure would regret that they had
done so, and when the people of Ireland would enjoy,
from a wise and enlightened policy, the blessings of a
brighter and a happier day—a never-ending day of
charity and peace.—(Cheers.)
Mr. SPOONER said, the Hon. Member who had just
sat down had begun his address by making a statement
in which he would find he had been very much mistaken,
for he had contended that he (Mr. Spooner) had argued
the merits of this question as a question of pounds,
shillings, and pence, or, in other words, that it was a
question as to whether 9.0001. or 27,000/. should be the
annual grant. Now, he begged to say, that he
never did treat this as a money question, or as
any other than a religious question, and that he
would persevere in opposing it solely from conscientious
motives. When this question was first introduced to the
House, he said he would be willing to make any sacrifice
to conciliate Ireland, short of a measure involving a ques-
tion of conscience. But now let him ask the Hon. Mem-
ber who had last spoken whether he had read the thirty-
first article of the Church of which he had no doubt he
was a religious and conscientious member? That article
contained these words. (Here the Hon. Member essayed
to read a document he held in his hand, but after several
attempts he appeared to be unable to decypher its con-
tents, which caused considerable laughter. Having
made out a few words such as " blasphemous,"
" masses," he then continued.) He begged to re-
mind Honourable Members opposite, that it was not
by clamour that parties could be convinced, or
that ridicule could be deemed argument ; and, there-
fore, he was led to suppose that they had resorted to
ridicule becathe argument had failed them. And he
begged to tell the Right Hon. Baronet the Secretary of
State for the Home Department in the same words, that
numbers did not constitute conviction. Let him (Mr.
Spooner) not be misunderstood—towards his Roman
Catholic fellow• subjects individually he felt the sincerest
friendship and regard, and he gave them credit for
acting according to the dictates of their conscience. But
he looked upon this question as one which asked the
House and the county whether the Roman Catholic or
the Protestant religion was the religion of the Scrip-
tures; and if the answer should be in favour of the for-
mer, then it should be admitted that the Protestant re-
ligion was a complete delusion. He was ready to admit
that this was not the place in which to enter upon a
polemical discussion.—(Hear, hear, and laughter.) He
was aware that many of h's remarks would not be
received with cordiality by those who were now listen-
ing to him. Neverthess he would not flinch from de-
claring, openly and honestly, what he felt to be his im-
perative duty. This measure had been reported
upon without the slighest inquiry having been
made as to the course of education pursued at
Maynooth, but he would state what it was.
The first book to which he would call the attention of
the House was one which they would find alluded to in
the report of the Irish Education Committee, at page
449 of that report. The book to which be alluded was
that of Badly. In the second volume of that work,
page 138, they would find it laid down that the Pope
might dispense with oaths ; and in another page of the
same book, it was stated that the Supreme Prelate could
dispense with vows and oaths in all cases. In this the
writer was confirmed by St. Thomas Aquinas, and
several others. Dr. M'Hale said that it was laid down
as a proposition that the utility of the Church was a just
cause of the dispensation from oaths, and that the
superiors of the Church were the judges of what was
for the utility of the Church. Then there was Gelasius
(as we understood)—the name being received with
suppressed laughter by several Hon. Members, the Hon.
Gentleman continued. The mention of that name might
cause laughter amongst Hon. Gentlemen opposite, but
the book which he had mentioned was a class-book s t
Maynooth. It Hon. Gentlemen doubted it, let them go
into that inquiry which he asked for. Gelasius said
that bishops had the power of releasing persons from
oaths provided just cause existed. And who were to be
the judges of the just cause ? Why the Catholic
prelates themselves. lie would ask the Hon. Member
for Montrose if he was prepared to make this annual
perpetual grant, and to give this large sum of money to
persons irresponsible to Parliament ? It was!in vain to
say that this measure would be a final measure, or that
it would be received as such by the Catholics
of Ireland. The Roman Catholics would not
be doing justice to themselves, holding, as they
did, that theirs was the primitive church---holding, as
they did, that all who differed from them were heretics,
they would not, he said, be faithful to themselves if they
accepted this as a final measure. It would be only looked
upon by them as a stepping-stone to further concessions.
He would entreat the House then to pause before they
sanctioned this measure. If they doubted, then was the
time to stop this Bill and to demand inquiry. The Pro-
testant Members of that House had in the most solemn
manner declared their belief that the Catholic religion
was idolatrous and superstitious, and yet they were
asked to give their consent to a measure for
the training up of the priesthood who taught
that religion. It was the paramount duty of the
Government before they did this, and of the Lord
High Chancellor of the Kingdom to come down to Par-
liament and ask that that declaration be no longer bind-
ing. It had been said that the feeling which had been
evinced on this question was not a spontaneous feeling,
but the effect of dictation and agitation. But could any
sensible man think that without some responding feeling,
that any set of men, however talented, sitting
in a room in London, could cause to be laid
on the table of that House petitions 'deeper
and thicker than the heaviest fall of snow on °Scotch
mountains.—(Laughter.) The people of Great Britain
thought and acted for themselves. The great body of
the petitioners were men who acted on the spur of the
moment. His Right Hon. Friend at the head of the
Government had described his feelings as a mere effer-
vescence. He wished to deal with it as a doubtful ques-
tion, but his Right Hon. Friend should know that re-
ligious feeling was deep in the minds of the
people of this country. The warning which his
Right Hon. Friend gave last session did not alarm
the country, because they looked upon him as the Pro-
testant leader of a Protestant country—as the Protes
tant adviser of a Protestant Sovereign—as the leader of
a party which rallied round him for four years, and
placed him in that high and honourable position for the
purpose of preserving the institutions of the country as
they found them; and, above all, for the purpose of con-
serving and preserving the constitution, which this mea
sure went directly to undermine. He challenged the
Right Hon. Baronet to test the feelings of the country
—he felt sure be was conscientious, and that nothing
but a sense of public duty would induce him to do what
he had done—but let not the Right Hon. Baronet pro-
ceed further in this course before he threw himself on
the Protestant feeling of the country; and if he acted in
accordance with their feelings, he would find th.it
warm support which he could not otherwise obtain.
He might depend upon it, the country would not sub-
mit quietly to this change—the greatest change that had
ever been proposed by any Minister of the Crown since
the days of the Revolution. He called upon the Right
Hon. Baronet to appeal to the country, and if the voice
of the country was found favourable to the measure, he
would never more give it an iota of opposition ; but let
not the country undergo that change at the hands of a
Minister who had been placed in power under very
different expectations.—(Hear, hear.) They might
plaister the wounds of the public mind, but they would
break out with increased virulence ; the public feeling
might smoulder, but it would break out sooner or later ;
and he therefore called upon the Government to pause
before they committed this great error, which they could
not recal, and which would, he conscientiously believed,
be fatal to the honour, the peace, and the prosperity of
this country. He thanked the House for the manner in
which they had heard him. He had no feelings of ill
will towards his Catholic fellow-countrymen,with many of
whom he lived in terms of friendship. He gave them
credit for honour and honesty ; and he thought that if
they did not act as they had done, they would not be
performing their duty according to the views of the re-
ligion to which they belonged.
Mr. C. BULLER said he told his Hon. Friend the
Member for Waterford that he was doing an exceedingly
foolish thing when he entered into the subject of
theology, and entered into an explanation of the doc-
trines of the Roman Catholic Church, for he might be
sure Hon. Members on the other side would quote
volumes of theology.—(A laugh.) See the consequence.
The Hon. Member for Birmingham had thrown aside all
other questions, and entirely devoted himself to the study
of the Catholic divines—(Laughter)—the 140 volumes
of St. Thomas Aquinas, and the voluminous writings of
Talacosius, wasn't it ?—(Laughter.) Well, then, Gal-
la,tias, or some such name. The Hon. Gentleman seemed
to have waded through these, and having found in them
two or three doctrines which he considered reprehensible,
called upon the House to condemn the measure under its
consideration. So that they were to refuse this measure
of concession to their Roman Catholic fellow-subjects
because the Hon. Member for Birmingham had found,
among the immense collection of the works of the great
writers of the Catholic Church, monuments of the
ability and zeal of barbarous times, a few opi-
nions which he considered repulsive.—(Loud cheers.)
After this warning, he heped Hon. Members, in the fu-
ture discussion of this question, would leave the question
of theology where it then stood. The Hon. Member for
Birmingham seemed to be fearful of encountering ridi-
cule. He could assure the Hon. Gentleman that he was
not inclined to ridicule him. It was more in sorrow than
in anger that he heard such discussions, and in such a
spirit. He felt pained that the Hon. Member should
think it necessary to declare in that House that their
Roman Catholic fellow-subjects were labouring under an
awful delusion. He certainly thought that an Hon.
Member who spoke in that way—an Hon. Member who
took credit to himself for a considerate regard for his
Catholic fellow-subjects, and who yetcould insult them in
this deliberate manner, was himself labouring under an
awful delusion. He hoped there was no occasion to be
guided by the advice of the Hon. Gentleman and the Hon.
Member for Dorset to dissolve Parliament. He did not
see any necessity for it.—(Laughter.) The Hon. Mem-
ber for Dorset said that the Right lion. Gentleman the
Secretary of State for the Home Department had ad-
vised a dissolution of Parliament on the Reform Bill ;
but the reason of that was, that the Reform Bill had
been thrown, of which there was no chance of the' May •
nooth Bill. He was one of the very few Members who
had received no remonstrance from his constituents on
this subject, although he had given the Bill and would
give the Bill his most anxious and zealous support, and
be thought that his constituents had thereby acted pro-