The Sun.
London, England, 1818-04-15 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Several Accounts relative to Ireland were presented.' Also
the Accounts of the Commissioners for the Reduction of the
National Debt.

Sir W. BURREL presented a Petition from the South
Down Growers of Wool, praying an alteration in the Laws
relative to the Exportation of Wool.—Ordered to lie on the
table.

Mr. C. BUTLER presented a Petition from Kilkenny
against the Window and Hearth Tax.—Ordered to lie on the
table.

WATER COMPANIES.

Mr. M. A. TAYLOR, on presenting a Petition from the
Parish of Mary-le-bone, for leave to erect additional Water-
works, entered into a history of the establishments at present
existing, and their late efforts to undersell each other ; the
result was, that some of them became so depressed in their
finances, that they were under the necessity of farming out
districts which they used to supply; and thus the public be:
came imposed upon, by beiug übliged to pay whatever price
the individual Company that had monopolized the supply
chose to demand. His object was to prevent this imposition,
and also to have a constant supply in case of tire, as well as
for everypuroose of necessity and life. He therefore trusted
the House would allow this Petition to go into a Committee
above stairs.

Mr. WARRE said a few words, which did not appear to be
in opposition to the Petition, lint in behalf of the fair conduct'

- •
of the Grand Junction Company.
The Petition was then brought up, read, and ordered to be
referred to a Committee up stairs.

Mr. H. SOINER brought up the Report of the Commit,
tec on the Southwark Bridge Company. Leave was given to
bring in a Bill to raise a farther soar of money fur carrying
on that undertaking.

Alderman t% 001) presented a •Petition from certain Inha-
bitants of Wapping, stating the injury they should receive
from the Itotherhithe Bride Bill, and praying a consideration
of their case.

A similar Petition was presented from the Watermen ply-
ing at Iron. Gate Stairs, to the same effect.—Both were or-
dered to lie on the table.
WOOL. TRADE.

Sir W. BURREL male some observations otx.
the 'Wool 'Lade, apparently tending show the
benefits that trade had derived by the rise in prices
last year i but that the Growers laboured under a
-heavy drawback by paying Poor's Ita7es, whicia.
foreign Growers were exempted from. His argn.
meats tended to spew the necessity of prohibiting
the importation of foreign wool, and allowing the
exportation of our own. He concluded by moving
for a Select Committee to inquire into the Laws
relative to Wool.

Lord LASCELLES argued that there was no
ground for this motion, as•the- price of wool had.
been gradually rising ever since 1816, and was
actually still rising ; and yet, with all, we could
• obtain front abroad, there was an inadequate
supply for. the manufacturer. He was happy to
state, that In the amount. of bro.ad cloths mane-
factored in Yorkshire, there never was so flourish-.
ing a year as the last, .except the year 1813. It
was therefore more advantageous to encourage the
importation of the raw material, and to send it
out in a manufactured state, than to try to int-
prove the nature of wool to the prejudice of the
long wool, which could be got nowhere else. If
this sort of wool were allowed to be exported, we
should tarnish foreigners with the only material
they want to imitate our principal staple manu-
facture. He was therefore against all interference
of the House.
Mr. LlR‘ilill4 gave the Hon. Baronet every
credit for his interference, but could not agree
with him in the object he wished to obtain. He
continued to argue precisely similar to the Noble
Lord. The price had risen from Is. 6d. to 2s.
per lb., while the carcase, that used to fetch 285.,
now produced from 48s. to 525. These must
surely .be sufficient advantages to satisfy • the
grower. By the manufacture of fine-grown wool
we obtained 34,0001. a-year, which was benefi-
cial to, every farmer and trader in the kingdom ;
so that if the Hon. Baronet's proposition were
agreed to, the greatest injury would be done to
the agricultural interests. He therefore com-
pletely concurred with the sentiments of the
Noble Lord.

Mr. D. GILBERT wished for an inquiry into

the subject, should therefore The

SIIIPNELL also sopportetl the Motio'h.
Mr ,HAIITllAvic teas aizainst it, on the graiintl
'that the sts!..A. of foreizo wool was itisoffi&lent.

SUMNka eould not agree 'vitt, the in-
ferenc,-s of the Noble Lord, as the proteetlings
before the former Committa bait been lon sum-
mary, and had not given room for dist:fission. lie
therefore-hoped -the liouse would 'proceed to ri
fill! I xisminalion of the sobjeCt.
Aldermen- ATKINS thought, if our wool Were
permitted to, he t- xporied, it would have a serious
and dangerous c ffe,t on nor foaoulactures.

Sir 3 GRAFI AM kirgned against the motion. By
referriog to the prices of stool at the time of the
Ameticdh wilt-, it ivoold he 10111)(110 be now six
or seven times as high, Which ought.; to be satis.
fectorv.

Mr. F. LEwts thougLt-the Committee ought to
be re-appointed, witich before had refused to go
into a toll inqoiry. 'Dm question was one of the
greatest importance to the country. If there was
ellowed a tree and unlimited exportation of corn,
it tvasnot- fair to impose a restriction upon wool
' The manotacturers- were bounn to she"
that there %.s•• as a necessity for preventing exports-
- Con ; and be would prone to the Committee that,
tall'the. grounds of the Act of 16GO were utterly'
futile and untenable; t;,ough- it-had :been the
basis of the. extraordinary system that had since.
'tiri..46l 16 check and teller this•exterisiVe trade.
The exportat'on of wool and veollen yarn would
be a fair object of duty ; and he was sore it would
prot!ure as much as `would enable the ['Ouse to.
Abolisti'd)e leather-tat.
he• House thew dikided on the motion of Sir
W. BURREL—

Nods ,

88•

,

11,1ajority
PRINCE REGENT'S MESSAGE;

As soon as ihe division was over, , the Utilise
became extremely crowded with ,Members.

their ingress,
Mr. WILBERFORCE rose to ask a question of
the Noble Lord opposite. It related to the coo-
' sideration of •the Message, but it could not be
heard.
Lord CASTLEREAGH answered, that it was his
Intention now. to. move the Order of Day for
the consideratiOn of the Royal Message, .for the
purpose of • nOstpaniog - it. The Noble Lord
having made his motion,
`•Mr. BROUGHAM said, when he took the liberty
last night to move, as. an.amendment, the inser-
tion of a few. very, common words, the observa-
tions with which- he was met from•many parts of
the Flouse, as well as from his Hon. Friend below
him, were to- this effect : that though theyi-agyeed
with' him in the principle of the measure, and
were as •ansions,as -himself, to establish the(prin-
Opal Resolution relative to economy, yet they
could not agree with the amendment, because
it was coutrary, to the uniform practice in sorb
eases.- Precedents were cited by those-• Gentle,
men as the ground why they could not agree with
Lint, although in substance they went as far as
be did. But now • the Lord deviated from
all precedent. He had moved, that an .order be
postpoiled- fur considering' a Message from the
Throne, concerning•which his (Mr: B-44).amend-
ment had been yesterday. rejected ; and the reason
why diet tot ins of -considering-it• Wit hoot delayAvere
said to ,he necessary,-. was because the llOnke
wet,s; bound to notice it in preference, to all
other-business, from due respect -to time Crown.
Ott suehoccasions much war sacritieed-to the con-
venience of debate, and the House were called on
to . postpone their opinions. on ,the different sub-
jects before them rather- than shety,a ,want of re,
spent-to a Royal :Vlessage. He did not' say that
this was wrong : for he Wished all poisjble respect
to be shewn to the Crown. Pint lie, thought the.
plain English of the Noble Lord's conduct, and.
that,of his associates, was too obvious to let his
meaning. remain doubtful one second. The Noble.
Lord at, the bead of his. Majssty!s Private Coun,
cils•assembles his friends in a private room, for a,
purpose for which no practice, or precedent can,
be cited. They consist of a selected: body of the:
Members of that Hoose, being composed gene-
rally of 1110,5. t respectable country Gentlemen,
whose inclination to support Government, when-
ever it was possible to support it, was well known.
He bad heard that one or twti others, who were.
known not to be of- the same. opinion, had•alsO•
heen introduced, amongst whom was a Learned
Friend of his, as it Ministers thought it necessary.
to feel their way, and sound him. But ni-anyi,
Gen;lemen of independent principles-mere exclud-
ed, -for what reason was not known. Here, then,_
was a select meeting of Members of Parliament,:
individuals highly respect Able„ and who were
flinch to, be feared for thtir independence and to
thew was made a disclosure which was refused to
the House front the fiat moment. If-this system
was to be. continued, it was a,mockery to say any
debate could be entertained in that House. The
debate might go on, the numbers Might he:count-
ed anti declared, but it Was elsewhere that the.
question o,:as decided. lie bad a right to suspect
that Ministers thus had recourse to practising up,
on Members. The dehate . was carried on in
silence, and in. silence also was their opinion to
be ascertained ; and if this mode was to he adopt-
ed, and the House .was expected •to coincide in
it, the House world hear no more on a question,
except from some übfeirtunate mistake,,such as
happened yesterday: Not having yet had any op-
portunity of entering -his protest against such a
system, he availed himself of the present one. It
was such a gross, unconstitutional practice, that he
could not let it pass. The silence of those Gentle-
men who bad been selected for the private meeting
was taken for their consent to e..hat had been.laid,
down ; but no sooner had they come into
the House titan they opened their mouths, and
declared that it was a proposition so extravagant
that they•cotild not countenance it. One after
another they made this declaration, and no one
Gentleman bad ventured to say that he had agreed
with the. proposition of Lord Liverpool. He.lmsil
therefore a.right to assume that this attempt bad
not been successful; and now, on this account, an-
other delay was. proposed, not that more pulses
mighthe felt,hot that attemptswight be made to get
over those lawn whose honesty stood recorded by-,
their declaration of last night. Be, would say,

that iE the ilonse, granted whtit tire. Noble uga
sobeht for, namely, further time, they would esta-
blish what he dared not propose in
Therefore, when the Motion Of the. Noble. Lord
had been disposed 0f,.h.e., should more a liesolit-
(ion so constitutional, and at the same time so
respectful and temperate towards, the parties,,ont.
of doors, that he.bad no manner of doubt it would
meet the approbation of the... House. .
Lord CASTLERBAGE4 strongly animadverted on
the observations of the Hon. and -Learned Gen-
tleman ; but the. confusion' in the:Gallery., from-
its being extremely crowded, prevented
.most of
his opening remarks from being !heard. He ol}-.
serVed that the Hon. and Learned Gentleman was
often in the habit of throwing out ideas,that were,
very different from the constitutional practke of
the House ; and he. must-therefore allow him to
enter his protest against.this new linigii4ge and
doctrine, as both-impracticable and. unwise. The
Hon. and Learned Gentleman attetnpted,to insi-
nuate, that this order was postponed for the pur-
pose of practising OR Gentlemen, as if it were in
the powerof Ministers to carry on -such a prac-
tice, and lo Make converts-of them to giye their
votes in favour of Government, as,well' as their
langnage. He should have thought -he might..
have had a different feeliog, and. the_ lion. and,
Learned Gentleman must allow him to consider
his prote.st and language only as a porSuitfof that
systerodie -so very often resorts (Hear, hear,
hear,l)---of. trying to vilify his Maiesty's Alloisters
for the-confidence which they possess; and whiehi
they should always- endeavour. to maintain. 10,
fact, it would seent.that he wished to.put down,
the system that was in existence, and to substi7
inte something in its stead that he might prefer.
would state to-morrow. what . had been the.
conduct of Ministers, and thereby satisfy tbe.
House. that in every part,of that conduct they
had done their duty fairly and honourably to-
wardS the Crown, wlitle they had ever been, duly
mindful of the real iuterests,of the Country.

Mr. Ttfat.s.Ey said, it was clear that there never
.was an Administration which took so much pains
as the present to vilify and degrade itself in the
short space or forty,-eight It was (pile
unnecessary to thew that, the present Administra-
tiodstood in a, mote contemptible sitnation than
any other that ever existed, The Noble Lord
butt endeavoured to attribute to his. Hon. and
Learned Friend an,assertioo that all previous coo,
cert was unconstitutional .• But his Learned
had never said coy such thing. Now, how did
the thing stand with respect to the Monarch, the
House, and Ministers ? Yesterday every thing
must have been settled with the Prince: Regent,
and Ministers must have taken oo themselves
what was the fittest proposition to. bring down to
the House, This must have been previous to
their meeting., Then it must have cone out that
the proposition ,would: not be sanctioned_by the
House,,on which out went a summons to meet al
Liverpool House,' in order that there Might he
submitted to a.select few What they had his Royal
Highness's commands to submit to that House. But
it was aTity,they had clot a sort of gallery at Liver-
pool noose for Reporter s, as then Gentlemen Might
hai'e a chance of knowing what had 'sassed there.
As it was,. the Noble. Lord had '.llltUle a speech,
but no notice was takenof him or. his speech;
.andO sort of [ullity had broken out among his,
own troops.—Afterwards some ofairem had come
forward. and said, .1 we will tell rm. fairly,
that, something has, passed which we., cannot
agree to." On this, the Noble Lord oppositesaid,
'' wait only, twenty-four: hours, and you. shall
hear all." He (Mr. Tierney) had waited, twenty-
four hours, anti he. w,.as now told, he must wait.
forty-eight, The .Noble Lord.said, '' wait only
till to-morrow, and, I will tell you why I post-
poned the business ytsterday." But what was
desirable to be. known was, what actually did pass
at LiVerpopl House, He understood it was this,
and he•wished the. House and the Coantry to un-
derstand it :—lt was proposed that there should
bea 'sli nm given to his Royal Highness the Duke.
of Clarence, to snake his whole income equal to
,40,0091. a-year, besides about 20,0001, for outfit.
To the Duke of Kent, in the contemplation of -his
-being married, 12,0001. a-year, in addition to his
;present income, making it 3,0,0001.,a0d 12,0001.
for ontfit. That the Duke of Camberland should
have, hikincome made up to 30,0001. a-year, being
an addition of 12,0001. ; and the Duke of Cam-
bridge the same. On tite whole, the-NAM bur-
then upon the country by these additions would,.
;he, 11G,0001. a-year, and this sum must be muck
up in the present year. Then what was he to
'believe? In-common candour he must think that.
his Royal. Highness the.Prioee .Regent, supposed.
it to be right,, and that those. Personages could
'not, maintain themselves in a proper degree of
.splendour without such an addition to their in-
:comes ; therefore Ministers: thought, proper to
sohntit tile matter .to, Parliament, ast the most
economical proposition that could be made. If
so, why want more time? \\Thy not go into the
question at once? It seemed as if. the, Noble
:ultal wished to say---" Now 1 must desert my
Royal Master, and court my friends in the Molise
of Commons, by which iue.cns I may chauce,to
'get out.of the scrape." Bust if it turned out that
rlte,Royal Personages could do with less than a
certain suns, why was it ever proposed tes give
them that sum ? Here was degradation upon de-
gradation.; and yet.the Noble Lord talked 4'14
Honourable and Learned Gentleman on this side
ishing for a change of system, in order to sob-
stitute soniethiog.oi his own. But let the noose
look at that Bench, and say if. it. were, possible
that horn such a strange and discordant body any,
wood system could be- expected to proceed. '[heir
?system was to try one thing, and if, that would
!Mot do, to try another. Indeed he must declare
;that he pitied them, though they were not de-
!serving, of compassion for the way in whiOs they
had used their Royal Master. He must stand its
'a most awkward and unjust situation in the eyes
of all the Foreign Ministers in, this country ; for
Ministeis.can neither tell hirn what is to he done
for bhp, nor do they know what to do for them-'
selves. On the whole, he was quite satisfied that
nothing short of. a total abandonment of the en-
tire proposition would satisfy the House or the
Country.
Lord FOLKESTONE observed, that as, time NT( hie
Lord had not condescended -to give any reason
fur postponing the 0,11.14 of the Day, it 11414 t be

toot thy of,,the.cnnsideration of the r.it;,n.,se whether,
they would 3..lupt aproposition so disrespectful to
the Prittee,and themselves.
Strangers were then ordered to Withdraw ;hut
the motion wrisASt length agreed, to willioutils. di-.

PRIVATELY STEALING ITT SHOPS' BILL.
00 motiota Sic S. ttomILLY tor the
third reiding of the liTivdtely Stealing in Shops'
Bffi,

The Ati•ottst.E;Y.TiENEßAG,,in a loiv voice, made
some objections, to the preamble, of tile. Bill, as
well as to some of-the Ciauses. 1-le: proposed to
leave:out the statenient that.the extreme severity
of the penalty led to an increase of the. crime,
and to insert, that " the said Act not being
found effectual, it was deemed nece:;,aryto.repeal
it.

Sir S. Rots/inn' said, he could not accede to
the proposition. The phrase, " expedient'' had
merely crept into our Stattnes.through the indo-
lence in preparing them. in modern times. It was.
proved tit t laws of ext reme severity caused crimes
to be committed with impitnity ; and the crime
of stealing in shops passed wit hiMptinity, bec.4use
persons would not prosecute when 'they, knew the
penalty was the forfeiture of life. Ile mentioned
a circumstance which lie had read in the :ST6u7s-
vapers, of a servant who had lobbed Iris master
being tried at the late Assizes for Southampton,
and though great interest was made
the Secretary of State,_ it was. rejected, because
it was said to be . declared that•the Judges had
conre•tO a. determination that in all cases where
servants robbed their masters the crime, when ca-
pitol, should punished with the full,penalty of
the law, and the'man was executed. He did not
know o het her the Judges had collie to such a Reso-
lution ; but whatever was made a capital offence
ought to be made so by the Legislature, and not by
the:Judges. He must, however, mention the effect
which thisitatement',whethet trueor not, produced.
In a few days.afterwards, a. person _ was tried at
the Ohi Builcy .for robbing his master of con-
siderable proPery, one, article of which he had
pledged at a paWribrO‘er's for five pounds ; .but
though the case was clear, the Jury found'him
guilty of stealing only to the
.value of 395. Could
any man, therefore,- not see, that the Jury were
aware, if they liad.found hku guilty, the conse-
quence would have .been to consign. him to' an
ignominious death! Such men were.„ therefore,
placed in a most Cruel situation ; for io disciiarge
their duty faithfully, they must send men to an
ignominious punishment, or they must, cputrAry,
to their oath, decline that they have not .dOne
that which in conscience they, are -snre, they
have done.

Mr. ‘VILBERPOEICE tholltfit eVt:ry. man who,
like himself,' had been icing_ in. public life, Must
feel that those who 'laboured to make: our laws
less bloody Were anxious to 'render an irn9ortant
service to their country, ile.was_ of opiuion,
an.lion. Friend of his had been On a fl?ruter oc.;
casion, that a review of our peuallaws, with a
view to make then', less severe, was "desirable;
The proper course of proceeding in every country
was, to airest. vice, in its tattiest stakes",
yet the Off,,tl.ler was within the reach of reforma-
tion. Aciing on this plinciple, a small punish-
ment in'. the first instance wouldpreVent the ne-
cus%ity of II ariug to clpitol pimiShment.
lie wiOled this s/ibFct to 'heiboLed at with can-
dour and feeling, and'he was sure that by no one
would it be viewed with More Caudonr and feeling
than by his HOn. and I,earaedFriend opposite,.
though he. Was conitraiut d to difß:r from him on.
this-occasion. The operatrion of the lot -be cdn7
sidered to be injurious under the present system;
as persons were led to calculate on escaping p.n•
nishment from the very severity of the taw, and.
were thus encouraged to. commit offences, which,
but-,for this impression, they might not have been
concerned in. Ile supported the Bill.
The motion was then -carried, and the Bill was
pased. -

Mr. Alderman ATKINS moved that the second
reading of the MoCk Auction Bill should be post-
potted to Thufsday, when it was his intention to
propose that the subject
,should be referred to a
CoMmittee.up. stairs. , The second reading was ac-
cordingly Postponed till Thursday.
Mr. BuTrattwoitTli presented a Petition from
the Cotton Manufacturers in favour of the Cot-
ton Wm)factor'', Bill.
Mr. W.,SMITH took the opportunity of saying,
once for all, that he hid-listened .with disgust and.
indignation to the invidious and unfounded insi-
muations which bad been sent forth.against those
who favoured the Cotton Manufactories itegttla--
lion Bill. He had made some inquiries on this
subject, and was satisfied that the conduct or the
friends to the: Bill, which had been brou.gbt in. by
an [lon. Baronet, was as pure, and their charac
ters as free from all ituputation, as those of it's
opponents could be.
The Petition was read, and ordered to be.
'printed.
On the motion of Mr. DOUGLAS, a Retnrti of
thePardons,granted during the last tea years,
'specifying the number on whiCh fees had been
paid to the Crown, was ordered to be laid before
the House.—Adjourned;