The Sun.
London, England, 1829-03-18 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS.-(LAST NIGHT.)

This being the night appointed for the second reading
of the-Bill for the Relief of the Catholics the doors were
opened at an early hour, and the gallery was packed full
at Two o'clock. Nearly all the prominent seats in the
House had been engaged by notices, written by Members,
and the SPEAKER took his seat at Four o'clock.

Mr. ESTCOURT, jun., took his oaths and seat for the
borough of Marlborough.
Lord NUGENT presented a petition from the town of
Aylesbury, in favour of concession. lie said that he should
always vote on this subject conscientiously, without refer-
rence to the opinion of his constituents, and do that which
he felt was his duty. The Noble Lord also presented simi-
lar petitions from Ashton-under-line, and two others from
parishes in Oxford.

Mr. R. SMITH presented similar petitions from Fenny
Stratford, and two other places.
The Marquis of CHANDOS remarked, that in Ayles-
bury the counter-petition had been signed by 333 out of
400 voters of that town.

Mr. LENNARD presented a petition from Maldon,
in favour of the Catholic claims. He was autho-
rised to state that it contained the unbiassed expression of
the strong and genuine feelings of those who had signed.
No solicitation, no influence of any sort had been used to
obtain signatures to it. He might say that the friends of
the measure before the House, both in Maldon and the
county of Essex, had entirely abstained from making any
exertions in favour of it. Petitions in abundance they
might have had, if they had desired it. But they were
content to leave the measure in the hands of the Govern-
ment.

Sir E. lIARVEY said that there could be no doubt
that the opinion of the great body of the county was against
concession.

Mr. DICK corroborated this statement.

Mr. WESTERN believed that the feeling of the majo-
rity in the county, whether for concession or not, was that
the measures now before the House should be left to the
uninterrupted sense of the Legislature. This was the feel-
ing not only of the higher and more intelligent portion of
the county, but he believed also of the yeomanry and trad-
ing classes. He had two petitions from parts of the
county to present in favour of it, and he regretted that be
had even these two, and that the parties did not follow the
example of the others who were in favour of it in the
county, and leave the matter to the sense of the Legislature.
He would not then enter into the question, but merely ob-
serve, that having sat in that House nearly 40 years, he
had never given a vote with greater pleasure than that
which he should give this night in favour of the measure
before the House, which lie firmly believed would have
the effect of effacing from our statute-book those penal laws
which were so long a disgrace to them.—( Hear, bear.)

After a few words from Sir GEORGE liENRI SMYTH,

Mr. BICKFORD rose to express his regret that he had
not been in the House when his Noble Colleague presented
the petition fiom Aylesbury. He was sure that that pe-
titiou had not been confined to the hundred oh Aylesbury.
There were not 40 Aylesbury names to it. The proper
title to the petition would have been—" The petition of us
whose names are undersigned." What the feeling of that
neighbourhood was, might be ascertained from the fact
that he had presented a petition from the householders of
Aylesbury, signed by 680 persons.
Sir J. BRYDGES denied that the Brunswick clubs
had used any unfair means to secure signatures to obtain
petitions.—The petition was then brought up and entered
to be printed.

Lord MANDEVILLE rose to present several petitions
against Catholic emancipation. One of the petitions came
from the Protestant Dissenters of London and its vicinity,
and had been rendered necessary by a petition presented on
a former evening, and which purported to speak the sen-
timents of a majority of the Protestant Dissenters of Lon-
don. The petition which he had to present was signed by
91 dissenting ministers, of whom nearly all presided over
large congregations. He mentioned this to prove that the
majority of the Dissenters were not in favour of emanci-
pation.
Mr. W. SMITH, in answer to the observations just
made by the Noble Lord, begged leave to say, that from
his own persbnal knowledge,—and that not a knowledge
of yesterday, but of 40 years' standing,—he knew that
there was a regular assembly of the Protestant Dissenting
ministers of London and its vicinity, which had long been
recognized as the representative of the Dissenting ministers,
of various denominations in the neigbbonrhood of the
metropolis. He meant to say distinctly, that the petition
which he had presented emanated fioin'a regular assembly
of such ministers convened in the common and ordinary
way,—that such assembly was the representative, not
merely of the sentiments of the Unitarians, but also of the
sentiments of the Independents, the Presbyterians; itnd the
Baptists, and that it was a recognized iwdy of very long
and very old standing. There might be persons calling
themselves Dissenting ministers in J,onclooi of whom he

which he could not understand—and had indulged in im-
putations which neither liberality nor truth could possibly
justi y.—(Bear, hear.)
The petitions were then laid on the table, and ordered to
he printed.
Mr. PORTMAN brought in a Bill to consolidate the
laws respecting Friendly Societies. It was read a first
time, and ordered to be read a second time on Monday,
the 4th of May next.
Mr. G. MOORE presented a petition from 147,000
Irish Protestants against any further concessions to the
Roman Catholics. Among the petitioners were to be
found many members of the resident Peerage, Magi-
stracy, and Geutry of Ireland, the mass of its Protestant
yeomanry; and last, though not least, the mass of the
honest cod independent Protestant population. The Hon.
Member, after eulogising the petitioners as some of the
wisest, best, and most independent men iu Ireland, pro-
ceeded to inform the House, that it was their calm, deli-
berate, and conscientious opinion, that the evils of Ireland
would not be removed, and the dangers which threatened
it would not be averted, by yielding to the demands of the
Roman Catholics. If carried, it would be received with
a spirit of insolent triumph by the Roman Catholics, to
which he was certain that the Protestants of Ireland would
not submit.

Mr. S. RICE denied in the strongest terms that this
petition ought to be considered as representing the senti-
ments of the.Pretestants.of Irelaud, As.. a proof of the
validity of this denial, he referred to tire declared opinions
of the great lauded interest, and to the fact, that on the
late division against the Catholic Question, out of the 100
Irish Members, only 16 voted on the adverse side, and of
these 16, seven were members of close corporations.
Mr. H. GRATTAN also strongly denied that this pe-
tition spoke the sentiments of the Protestants of Ireland,
and referred to its signatures as a demonstration of that
fact.

Mr. MOORE said, that in the Protestant declaration,
as it was called, he knew that in the town of Bangor,
county of Down, out of 65 signatures, 57 were described
as Esquires. Ile then enumerated several of the names of
persons in trade, and one a servant, who were, as he was
informed, described as being Esquires, in the declaration
alluded to.

Admiral EVANS said, that the worst arts were resort-
ed to in getting up that declaration. It was said in the
country, that those who declined to sign it would be marked
out for destruction.

Lord F. L. GOWER remarked, that the petitioners
merely opposed the Catholic Association, and the low rate
of the elective franchise. Both these objections being re-
moved by the Bill before the House, it did not follow that
howtver zealous the petitioners might have previously
been, they were now to be deemed opposed to concession
upon the general question.
After a few words from Colonel Bauman, the petition
was laid on the table.

Mr. 'WILLOUGHBY presented a petition from Glen-

thorn and Bradford, in the county of Nottingham, against
further concessions to the Roman Catholics.—Ordered to
be printed.
Admiral EVANS presented petitions from Kirkpatrick
and three other places in the county of Cork, to the same
effect. The Hon. Member observed, that the persons to
whose admission to political privileges he was opposed,
were idolaters, and we knew what denunciations were
contained in the Scriptures against all idolatrous persons,
and those who approved of their practices.—(A laugh.)
If a power of interference in the affairs of this realm were
to be given directly or indirectly to any foreign potentate
by means of this Bill, that circumstance alone afforded him
(Admiral Evans) a sufficient ground for °nosing it. In-
deed, he felt bound to do so by the oath be bad taken in
the presence of that God "to whom all hearts were open,
all desires known, and from whom no secrets were hid,"
and he would do so, so help him God.
The petitions were ordered to be printed.

Mr. BURRELL presented a petition from Cuckfield, in
the county of Sussex, against the Catholic Claims.—Or-
dered to be printed.

Sir 11. INGLIS had a number of petitions to present
against further concessions to the Catholics, from different
parts of England and Scotland. The Hon. Member pro-
ceeded to enumerate the petitions, and among others men-
tioned that one was from the clergy of the archdeaconry of
Bath, and had attached to-it the signatures of 57 clergy-
men ; another came from the presbytery of Linlithgow,
and expressed an opinion that the first inroad on the coo_.:
stitution would be attempted by means of an at!aalf on the
Established Church of Ireland ; and added, that Presby-
terians though the petitioners were, tlie-y considered it their
duty to support that Church as the bulwark of Constitu-
sional Protestantism. Another petition was from the
synod of Ayr, agreed to by a large majority of its mem-
bers, who had the care of the religious instruction of
500,000 persons. After repeating a lung list of petitions
from Scotland, the Hon. Gentleman declared his opinion,
that a vast majority of the people of Scotland was decidedly
opposed to making further concessions to the Roman Ca-
tholics.

Mr. N. CALVERT would not admit that the majority
of the people in Scotland and England was opposed to the
measure brought forward by Ministers. He held rather
cheap some of the petitions that had been presented with
respect to this question_ he knew he himself could obtain
petitions on the subject from half a dozen •neighbourirr
villages, and whichever way he pleased.—(Laughte:7.)'
Lord J. RUSSELL thought the Hon.:W:4)4er fni:Ox-
ford went too far when he declared his heiief that the opinion
of the majority of the peolde of Scotland was against the
Roman Cathc:l;ca, He recommended to the Hon. Mem-
ber's attention the account of a Meeting which had lately
dtaisl7i
n place aftorEit'iltienlblecurtgulall aactqAwirbecieril.7;leYaletYile:7ls:l"rl:aend
respectability,
.
was favourable to the refs."-ai of Catholic
d
,r
per's attentio
• n rs—a
speech delivered by Dr. la e
speech containing as excellent specimens of wisdom and
„oquence as he had ever rt ad. In it the learned breaker
stated his opinion that there were a great number of con-
nHetil,ile/6° ret43l'"•;iended to the Hon. Mem-
tents and like-wise of non-contents upon this question ;
but added his decided conviction that the great body of the
people was perfectly quiescent with regard to it, and did

Mr. BELL presented a petition from the deanery of
➢lorpeth against Emancipation.
Mr. LIDDELL—Upon the petition just presented from
the Clergy, resident in the Deanery of Morpeth, I have
to make a few observations. That petition is signed by
only six beneficed Clergymen resident there, and I have to
state that an equal number of residents have declined to offer
their names thereto. Amongst them is the Archdeacon of
Northumberland and another gentleman, for whose talents
and respectability my Hon. Friends near me will vouch,
the Rev. Mr. Hodgson, who is now engaged in writing a
history of the county. Sir, having mentioned the name
of the Archdeacon of Northumberland, I cannot deny
myself the satisfaction of saying that I know him to he
one whose piety and liberality may well recommend him as
a model for imitation to his clerical brethren. I know
him to be one most deeply attached to the Protestant
Church, of which he is at once an ornament and a support,
though he is utterly averse to resisting her claims to the
venera►ion and confidence of the people upon the narrow
basis of intolerance and exclusion. I have been informed,
Sir, that some of our Clergy have not been over scrupulous
in the means they have employed in getting up some of the
petitions which have just been presented; and if so, I
wish they would pay some regard to the example I have
just cited.

Colonel Strutt presented a petition from the inhabitants
of Furling and Plaistow, in Essex, against further conces-
sion ; Mr. Ellison, a petition from the Recorder and Com-
mon Council of Newcastle-upon-Tyne ; Mr.E.Denison, one
from the inhabitants of Hastings ; Lord Bective, from the
Roman Catholics of Strathmurry and Kilbally, in the
county of Meath; Mr. Western, from the freeholders and
householders of Saffron Walden and of Coggeshall ; and
Mr. H. Grattan, sixteen petitions from the Roman Catho-
lic inhabitants of St. Mary's, St. Thomas's, St. Michan's,
and St. James's, parishes in Dublin ; and from other pa-
rishes in Cavan and Tipperary, all in favour of further
concessions.—Ordered to be printed.

Mr. F. PALMER presented, with a prefatory apology
for the sentiments of the petitioners, a petition from Wal-
dem, in Sussex, against further concession.

Mr. HUSKISSON presented a petition fro►n a. consi-
derable portion of the officiating ministers of the establish-
ed church in the town and vicinity of Liverpool, than whom
he thought there was no body of men more calculated to
pronounce an opinion on the contested merits of concession
to the Roman Catholics. They professed the strongest at.
tachment to the Protestant establishment in church and
state, yet admitted the expediency of extending tho privi-
leges of the Constitution to their Catholic fellow-subjects,
under the wise regulations proposed by the Bill now be-,
fore the House.

General GASCOYNE believed his Right Hon. Col-
league'tothceuphootiiitoio ici eoins....
cession, even,
il vn btohnei
ph leei
petition
i omn
himselfini
ns
ouitivti
believeddhbeere sftot oerroeidutsht
ottehhbeHee
they had
edot
expressedOf
themselves
f the 33 Clergy..
men present at the Meeting, 13 doubted the propriety of
IT;n4ri::q.inet two-th i r d s o f the
petitioning
converts
arbttys onatloll7t
hei
this
ebsreegnytmi
mesubject,eni:t xovafhnod, neutrality.tihtreno tuolrde
Thehe p finallyei toi
found,
in,be-
came,da,
was wpm
had agreed to a prayer that, should the concession be
Catho-
licsiro-.lttfhroemoatiiecretary. Of the
staocrceodacoebsssei9rno,
but that being inti-
midated and rendered despondent by the alarming majority
town made,
o fa an additional
iavtdhedreipt oßi :nil al
he oefoatitlhe would Rs
lilogokluistledrjv
of 188 on the resolutions of the Right Hun. Secretary,
re-
quired
population t o
bindby
twereh e m
averseto a
they thought it might be expedient at once to address a pas
tition through Lord Eldon to the House of Lords,
Mr. HUSKISSON observed, that it would be a solecism
to pray, as the Gallant and Hon. Member contended the
petitioners did, for the enactment of an oath to compel the
Catholics to keep another oath already embodied in the Bill.
opposed to concession, why did they not try the strength of
Pita tedi.
--(A laugh.)—lf the feeling of Liverpool was so strongly
that feeling by raising a counter-petition?—.(Hear.'
s of the Roman
Catholics of Ferns, of Ross, and of Ca 1.:,,, _
; Colonel Bernard, •
111r.ITIrse. plle.tihiouiatctiv,ianssorneapdr,esaerindtoodrtdehereped
ttiotib,:..i
t_l:ait of the inhabitants of
*.'ilat of the inhabitants of Wa-
teiford, in the absence 'O.l Sir John Newport, and also that
Yif'd'csoanyission.—Sir 11. Smyth pre-
and the Mat quis of Blandford, from
''ains from Tilbury and Marlow in Essex ; Mr.
o‘ that: .
icg ahonef:tße
lia,r:rla.;.llACi
in
leio,:neverolo:Lboi
sieincatied I),etfirom
Wigan;
Chalford, in Cheshire, against concession.—Lord Mount-
charles presented petitions from Inniskillen and Innishowen,
in favour of concession.—These petitions were all ordered
to be printed.
Similar petitions were presented from St. Ash, Devon-.
shire, by Mi. Spottiswode ; and from two places in Was,
wickshire by Lord Hothant.
• CATHOLIC RELIEF BILL.
Mr. PEEL moved the order of the day for the second
reading of the Catholic Relief Bill.
On the question that it be read a secon.,,i time,
Mr. BENSON rose, not to opporei the second reading
or the B:11, but to state the groundaVs which he gave is his
"Pima. non- Members l'i4 40Atendtd that the present
measure would be a laradAting in on the Constitution as
established in 1688.. He would not waste the time of the
House by arguing that point ; for, as it appeared to him,
the or.astion was not what the exigencies of 1668 require;,,
...itt idiat the eircuinstanoes of the. country in 1829 iron
periously called for.-,-(Hear.)--And thia'question, ',ll his
'tern t mind, lay in a narrow compass,—namely, tvlictlaer an at, .teirr, ahoohl be. made by cOnciliation,—that ia, by Can_
" —
wing the Catholic ol'aims—to settle the state of Ireland, or
that recount' °l:iould be had, by tirawing the sword, to,
coercive oars'
in order to pot an. end
.to the present
4.:::pression of discontent i!a! that country,
.Such a state of
things no Hon. Men der would, he Was convinced, consent
to have renewed. ;—and yet such a state was, perhaps,
only to be avoided by the measure then before the House-
That measure, he was always convinced, to be thoroughly
beneficial—to be a perfect one, free from drawbacks and the
seeds of future discontent—should be brought by the Annie-
gave it then
went responsibility.—(Hear.)—He therefore
....
ict!on. It had
his support with unmixed ftelings of t
"Ist.was ob.ec ii - that it jt (n
ters of the Crown as a Government measure on Govern_
been stated by Hon. Members

able from its- not being provided with sufficient seen-
. ritiegi.. 'lie thought_ those who objected to those securities
were bound to propo better, if they knew of better. For
his part, he was perfictly satisfied with those provided.
Sir EDWARD itINATCHBULL felt it impossible to
accede to the measure now proposed by his Majesty's Go-
vernment,' merely' because they had thought proper to
change their opinions upon the subject of the state of Ire-
land. Looking purely to the fact that they have changed
their opinions, he did not therefore see as a consequence
that he was called upon to assent to what they now pro-
posed. There might be secret reasons for the conduct of
the Government, and lie had no doubt there were such ;
but he who was not in the secret could not see any thing
in these reasons which were stated to authorise this im-
portant concession to the Catholics. He repeated, that he
had confidence in the Right Hon. Gentleman and his Ma-
jesty's Government, but that confidence was not great
enough to induce him to part with the Constitution.—
(Hear, hear, hear.)—He would now take leave to examine
those reasons which the Right lion. Gentleman had de-
tailed to the House as having operated open his mind to
produce a change of opinions—opinions which, be it re-
membered, the Right lionaGentleman declares he has not
abandoned—which he professes to hold unchanged, but which
he thinks it necessary to modify under the new and peculiar
circumstances in which he professes to be placed. The
reasons which the Right Hon. Gentleman alleges for the
change of his opinions are three—the state of Ireland, the
position in which he is placed with reference to the House
of Commons, and the disunion which existed in the Ca-
binet. These appeared to him, one and all, to be unsa-
tisfactory. With reference to the state of Ireland, that
was nothing new.—(Hear, hear, hear.)—He repeated that
Ireland was no more disturbed now than it had been at
any former period. He had attended to all the Right
Hon. Gent. advanced upon that subject, and he was pre-
prred to prove that the state of Ireland had been much
more disturbed upon many other occasions than during
any period of the past or present year. Ten years ago
tire pressure of necessity was much greater, and according
to the Right Hon. Gent.'s reading, the danger was there-
fore much greater than at present. Without going fur-
ther, he might refer to the expressions contained in a
speech of a Noble Lord (Lord Plunkett), then Attorney-
General for Ireland, who, in 1822, in prosecuting the
unfortunate actors in some of the lawless transactions
which then took place in Ireland, drew a picture of
the state of society much more highly coloured than
any they had seen front the Right Hon. Gentleman,
and declared that the Catholics of Ireland were united
in a body for the suppression of the Government.
He contended, therefore, that the Right Hon. Gent. had
totally failed in an attempt to make out a justification for
tine abandonment of his principles by any reference to the
state of Ireland.—(hear.)—The next reason which the
Right Hon. Gent. advanced was drawn from the state of
the House of Commons. That state, however, of opposi-
tion to the views of the Right lion. Gent. upon the subject
of the Catholic question, had been known to him for some
time past; but did the Right Hon. Gent. mean to say that
because the parties in the House of Commons were so
nicely balanced that was to be made a reason for the aban-
donment of his principle; or did he mean to contend that
the party which succeede in defending itself has not gained
its point?—(Hear, hear. )—lf the Right Hon. Gent. had
looked at the matter fairly, he would have found that the
division of last year was not so decidedly against him as
that of some years before • and the arguments he drew
from that reason were therefore as insufficient as those con-
nected with the state of Ireland. He believed, indeed,
that if the one hundred and sixty who formed the mino-
rity a few eveniega ago, had been supported as it ought to
have been by his Majenty's Government, e Right Hon.
Gentleman would have hind himself in a majority
upon that question in the preaeat Session. The Right
Honourable Gentleman complains that he has not been
supported by those who voted with him on this question.
He (Sir E. Knatchbull) did not expect such a charge
on the part of the Right Hon. Gentleman. It was new to
him to hear it imputed as an offenee io a Member of that
house that he sat silent during any discusaion which took
place in it. He well remembered the discussizca which
took place upon various occasions, and he equally well we-
membered the time when the Right Hon. Gentleman re-
tired from office, and Mr. Canning became Minister.—
Was it, then, when Mr. Canning came to office, that the
Right Hon.Hon.Gentleman entoplained of being deserted ?-e-
He repeated, he recollected rhea lime well, and he could
take upon himself to say that no MiMetaa ever retired from
office with so large, ea powerful, and so reepeastable a body
of -supporters. Nothing, therefore, excited greater surprise
in his mind than to hear the Right Hon. Gentleman re-
proach them supporters with having failed in the perform-
ance of their duty. The Right Horn Gentleman, however,
sere, that even dlr.'s he was satisfied sometiniag must be
dose to conciliate Ireland. If then he was satisfied oi the
necessity of conciliation, and if he was thus abandoned by
his supporters, why did he not consent to lend his assist-
ance to Mr. Canning for the among:Asir/tient of that object?
Mr. Canning was then all-powerful in Pasliament, and
bad been the honest and consistent advocate an; She Ca-
tholics during the whole of hie political life, and the ataate
of Ireland would at that time have afforded the Right Hon.
Gentleman a sufficient apology for adopting such a course.
—The Right Hon. Gentleman, however, did not think
proper to lend his assistance to Mr. Canning in 14;27. He
did not even think it right to make that concession Last
year, although he must have been seneible that Mr. Can-
ning could, above all men, have bestowed the boon of
emancipation upon the Catholics with the best grace and
with the greatest effect; and that they would have re-
ceived with gratitude that coneenginn from his Govern-
Anent, which, from the present Government, they regarded
as the result of policy and necessity. (Hear., bear.) After
again observing upon the disappointments with which be
heard the Right Hon. Gentleman's invective against thane
whom he charged with abandoning him, the Honourable
Baronet proceeded to comment on the expressions of the
Itight Hon. Gentleman with reference to the Kent county
meeting, and observed, that when he and his (+lends as-
trembled there, they thought they were giving the Right
lion. Gent. the most powerful support. (Hear, hear.)
He stood at that meeting as one of the Representatives of
the county ; and he conlal only say, with reference to his
cono.,aet there, that, when he thought he was doing what
was fitting" and right, he shoutd always take leave to act as
be thought fit. (Hear, hear.) The third point of the
Right Ron . Gent,
turned upon the divisions in the Cabinet.
These divisions, h0„.,,,,,5r, were not greater ; they were,
perhaps, even less in the pre =eat` than in any other Cabinet
which preceded it. lithe Rigs. lion. Gent. had been of
-tier, then there might
different opinion from the Noble Pre,
have been some reason for argument ; but ,he confessed he did
not see those divisions which operated so sLeongly on the
mind of the Right Hon. Gent. ; and he believed tine Gallant
General (Sir George Murray), who had declared him-
self so strongly in favour of emancipation when adopted by
the Gover ntnent, would not have proved a my formidable
opponent to the Right Hon. Gentleman if the question bad
been discussed in the Cabinet under different circumstances.
.—(Hear, hear.)—He could indeed conceive that the op-
p,-,31.,: on in the Cabinet was formidable at the time the
Right siast. Gentleman, the Member for Liverpool (Mr.
Huskisson), n 2.1 the Right lion. Gentleman, the Mensber
for Inverness (Mn.. C. Grant), and the Noble Lord (the
Member for Cambridge aTTniversity (Lord Palmerston) were
included in the Cabinet; bhi: when these Right Hon. Per-
sons were, from circumstances to which he would not at
bluer, the case was
present allude, compelled to quit that ta.7'
' nolic claims,
very different ; the disposition to favour the tan
if not extinguished in the Cabinet, was at least rep:essed'
and the obstacles upon which the Right Hon. Gentleman
founded his reasons for a change of opinions no longer
existed. It was not easy in the course of these debates to
avoid all allusion to what had taken place in former discus-
sions. He thought, therefore, the House would pardon
him for alluding to an observation which fell from the
Hon. Member for Winchelsea (Mr. Brougham) upon this
subject. That Hon. Member had asserted that this was a
political question, and totally unconnected with re-
ligion. An observation of that kind from the
Hon. nniber for Winchelsea, and from those who
took the same course of policy as that Hon.
Member, did not much surprise him ; but it certainly was
with no little astonishment that he heard the Right Hon.
Gent. pursue a line of argument which indicated a dispo-
eition to hold the same opinion. If there was nothing in
the religion of the Roman Catholics which they were to
take into consideration as connected with this question,
then he would say that there was nothing in their poli-
tieal situation which could disqualify them from the full
enjoyment of the same rights as those possessed by the Pro-
teetants. It was singular, too, that the Right lion. Gent
always held the religious tenets of the Catholics to be the
principal ground of disqualification, and in the debate
which took place in that House in MS, the Right lion.
Gent. distinctly said, " That he could not leave test of his
consideration the influence which their religious tenets pro-
aced on the minds of the Catholics, at the time when he
-was called upon to extend their political rights."—(Hear.)
Now, however, they were to be told, that the question
'was not one of a political but of a religious character.
lie believed that a large portion of the people of this
country thought the question one of a character exclusively
religious. Doctor Doyle had written a passage point•
ing out the force of authority in the Roman Catholic
Church. Ile stated that authority to be demon-
strated and 'narked out by nature, by experience, and
Revelation. What, he a4irti, could avail to keep the

great hulk of ignorant people together—wbat but autho-
rity? What caused all the schisms that broke out every
day in England—what but the want of authority? Again,
what produced all those frantic opinions which were spread
over Germany, and throughout the Continent—what
but the want of authority ? What contributed more
powerfully than, perhaps, any thing else, for the preserva-
tion of the Catholic religion—what but the force of au-
thority ? Nov, what he wanted was some security against
this spirit of authority, which, be feared, would infuse it-
self into the civil policy of our State. Let some security
of this kind be given to him. It was not securities of the
kind proposed by the Right Hon. Gentleman that he re-
quired: He warred not against men, but with principles.
—(Hear, hear.)—All that he had heard and read of the
Roman Catholic religion, satisfied him that it was a re-
ligion of ambition. He needed no stronger assurance that
it was a religion of ambition than that given by the Right
Hon. Gent. in one of his speeches in opposition to conces-
sion. The Right Hon. Gent. had formerly stated, that
" the two religions were inconsistent with each other,
and that one or other must have the ascendancy."—(Loud
cries of hear, hear.)—He was of the same opinion with
the Right Hon. Gentleman, and it was because he
feared that the concession of this question would arm the
Catholics with the means of struggling for that ascend-
ancy, that he was opposed to it. The Right Honourable
Gentleman had asked, if Hon. Gentlemen were not satis-
fied with what he proposed, to tell what ought to be done.
—(Loud cries of hear, hear, from Mr. Peel.)-11e would
meet that part of the subji•ct, for he was disposed to argue
the whole of it in a fair manner. First, he must remark
that this was a new state of things.—(Loud cheers, in
which Mr. Peel joined.)—He must also remark, that this
was not a fair question ; for it was not incumbent on Hon.
Members of that House to propose any measure ; and, at
all events, Government had no right to call upon them to
propose a measure, when they came down with a measure
already prepared, and placed the House in this situation—
" Either accept of the measure that we propose, or plunge
the country into rebellion." For his own part, he would
be ready to go further in the way or concession to the Ca-
tholics, than many with whom he concurred on this sub-
ject; and had this question been proposed six months
ago, and fair time given for its consideration, he was free to
confess that he would be desirous of only withholding
from the Catholic seats in Parliament, which conferred
political power. The Right Hon. Gentleman appeared
to think that if seats in Parliament were withheld, the
object of a final settlement of the question would not be
attained—that the adjustment would not be satisfactory—
and that a Catholic Question would still be left behind.—
(Hear, hear.)--But even after the passing of the measure
proposed by him (should it pass), was there not still a
Catholic Question left behind ? From the conclusion of
the speech of the Right Hon. Gentleman, it was manifest
that he feels and believes that this measure will not put
an end to it.—(Hear, hear.)—The Hon. Baronet pro-
ceeded to advert to the Coronation Oath, upon which he
would undertake to give no opinion ; but it certainly was
worthy of serious consideration how great an obstacle his
late Majesty regarded the Coronation Oath to be to the
making the concession of political power to the Catholics.
He would be reluctant to create uneasiness in any quar-
ter; but it would be duly weighed, he was sure, by all
who supported, as well as by all who opposed this measure,
in what a painful situation his Majesty would be placed
by being called upon to remove that which, in the judg-
ment of the late King, and in the opinion of many persons
both in and out of that House, had been always placed
amongst the strongest existing barn rs to the accession of
the Catholics to political power. This was a subject that
deserved to be deeply and seriously considered. In refe-
rence to the securities, he hoped that some more accurate
explanation of them would he given in Committee, for be
owned they were not quite intelligible to him. He per-
ceived, from the statement of the Right Hon. Gent. that a
Protestant King would not be attended by a Catholic Lord
Chancellor. God forbid that there should be a Catholic
Lord Chancellor of England ; and sure he was that in the
bands of the present Lord Chancellor (Lyndhurst) the
Protestant religion would bP duly protected.—(Laughter
and cheer s).—But although there was not to be a
Catholic Lord Chancellor, it appeared there might be
a Catholic Lord Treasurer ; and then he understood
there was to he some mighty contrivance, by wl.ich
the spiritual funetions attached to his office were to be
handed over to a Corronission.—(Hear.)—This part of
the plan be could not comprehend, but expected some
satisfactory explanation would be given of it in Committee.
Many a day must elapse before the distrust which the pre-
sent conduct of some public men had created in Ilia mind
could be removed. He feared indeed that confidence in
publig. ?nen had -received a blow throughout the country
which it wou'irr not, soon recover. Now it might be almost
ruly said—

--

S

rests of the country at large? Ireland asked of the Go- at
vernment a fish, and they gave her a serpent. She asked It
of them bread, and they proffered her Catholic Emanci- It
potion. (Laughter.) This, he presumed, was the prac- u
tical and only comment which had been passed on his Ma- ;i
jesty's Speech, the recommendation that Parliament should
take into consideration the condition—the whole condition fi
of Ireland. He begged pardon for touching on the affairs tl
of Ireland, but he felt himself obliged to do so, since the ; q
question before the House had been argued upon the neces-
sities of the country. He must say that the principles of .v
the British Constitution are built upon a system of exclu tI
-
sion and disabilities, and to remove which disabilities would a
be to destroy the Constitution. In the first place, the s
Constitution demanded qualifications, and of a two-fold na-• f
ture ; the Constitution was made up of qualifications. We t
demanded the pecuniary qualifications from all who exer- . f
cised the functions of Government—from the Legislators ( I
who make laws—from the Magistrates who execute them'
—and from Jurymen of every description. By the pro ilt
-
posed measure a Roman Catholic may be First Lord of the 1
Treasury. The place of the King, as a Learned Lord ex-
presses it, must, it appears, still remain Protestant, but
some bigotted devotee of Rome may conquer his way to
the Royal presence, be his Prime Minister, and become
Viceroy over him. (Hear, hear.) But, Sir, this last ,f
reservation, I confess, heightens the objection I have to I 1
the measure into abhorrence and disgust. What, Sir, after N 1
having established by a solemn Act the doctrine that con-
science ought to be left free and unrestrained—that disabili- 1
ties of the nature sought to be removed inflict a disgrace
upon the feelings of those whom they affect intolerable to
good and generous minds, worse than persecution—nay, 1
than death itself—how do you apply it? Why, Sir, you ;. I
propose to sear this brand high upon the forehead, deep '
into the heart of your Prince—you render the scar more '
visible, the insult the more poignant, by making him the
solitary individual whose hereditary rank must be so held
and transmitted. Freedom of conscience to all subjects,
but none to your King ! Throw open wide the portals of r
the Legislature that a of Norfolk may take his seat 4
in your senate, but hurl from his loftier seat there—the
throne of this realm—a Duke of Lancaster, if he exercises
the same privilege—if be presuMes to have a conscience!
Hitherto, Sir, the British Constitution is uniforM, 'fair,
equal ; it demands the same moral qualification, as I have
already observed, from us all.. The liberal schools have
long proclaimed that these essential securities imply sla-
very, and the Ministers who have adopted their political
creed, nevertheless, are content, nay propose that the
King should be the only proclaimed slave in his dominions.
But if the Bill should pass, which God avert ! if no other
and fitter individual should stand up in favour of the then
insulted feelings of his Sovereign, I will. Whether the
exception is introduced to blind the eyes of some under ,
the guise of a security, or however intended, I will pro- ,
pose that, amidst this general Emancipation, the King
shall not be bound—that in the very acme of liberal legis-
lation the King should not receive a marked insult—.
that his 'future religious profession shall be delivered
from the taint of thin solitary dictation—that his con-
science shall be free. I will move, Sir, an Amendment,
omitting that clause. It may be said, the Monarch will
have still a choice. Certainly. And have those in whose
favour you are about to throw down the ramparts of the
Constitution, have they at present less ? But, Sir, this
measure does not merely affect the feelings and the cha-
racter, I say it touches the title of the King ! Reverse the
attainder upon Popery, and the natural consequences are
obvious. Proclaim the equal right and eligibility of all relir
gions to all offices of state amongst us, ye emancipators,
and remind us of the millions of subjects who demand the
declaration and concession, and allude to the scores of
millions who back their demand elsewhere, and the mo-
ment the King shall sign such a Bill, in what position
will you have placed him ? While the Constitution of
the country stands as our revered and not hitherto rivalled
ancestors framed it and transmitted it down to us—namely,
strictly Protestant, excluding from power (and from poWer
only) the devoted adherents of a cruel, tyrannous, and su-
perstitious church, nothing can be more dear, consistent,
and indisputable than the Royal title; take away that
Protestant character, nothing less so. The privileges of
Protestantism as hitherto maintained, constitute the Royal
title-deeds of hia august family, that which became the
actual transfer of this estate, which he holds in Parliament
and in the country; and in what attitude do his legal and
Constitutional advisers place themselves who recommend
their surrender ? No sum render ! who dares urge hint to
sign an instrument to that effect? It was the very as-
cendancy, now a bye-word of abuse, and which I observe
Mr. O'Connell exults in saying is gone for ever; I .sey;
which first introduced into these realms the illustrious and •J
patriotic line which now governs us; wbick still forms'
at once the pillar and fotiodation of the Throne; which • .
combines its title with the very elements of our Constitu-
tion; which identifies it with our liberties; which con-
secrates it with the sanctities of our religion,—in a word,
which proclaims by the unanimous suffrages of all our in-
stitutions as well as in all our hearts, George IV. as the •
rightful King of the first Protestant Empire upon earth.—
It is true, that the Act of Settlement is yet, I believe, to
remain—an Act which was with difficulty passed, and
passed at least by a majority of one only; by a Parliament
exclusively Protestant ; but it will be of course more
zealously supported, both as to. its letter and spirit, by
one partly Papist. But, Sir, lam adverse, for my own
particular part, as a matter of taste as well as princiPle,
from resting the Royal title, which has hitherto been . •
placed upon the broad foundation of national principle,
and supported by all the analogies of the Constitution, upon
a mere Act of Parliament, or rather upon a reservation in
that Act—upon, "inky blots and rotten parchment bonds"
--instead of the firm foundation of our Protestant Consti-
tution. I feel persuaded, therefore, that whatever' be-
comes of the legal, the proposed measure touches the moral
title of the King. I feel confident, circumstanced as the
succession is in reference to other heirs, whose claims the
celebrated Mr. Buller has so plainly traced, that be whey*
the Bill would chiefly affect would feel his generous ai's
wounded by the circumstances in which he would then find
himself placed in reference to rights that most morally re-
vive,
however weakly they might be maintained. For these
reasons I will, as an humble individual, resist the present g.
measure to the last.• lam aware that it is said that there
is no danger where the population is, generally speaking, .;
Protestant ; I differ in this assurance, inasmuch as I am cer-
Uhl-this House no longer attends to the voice of the peop,ll
on this important point ; but, danger or none, I am advektie.
from insulting': high-minded and generous Prince, by prac-
tically showing him that the principle which seated him- '
on the Throne is unjustifiable, and no longer worthy of
preservation ; is worthy of remembrance only as an ob-
solete and ridiculous piece of past bigotry, though we will
condescend, nevertheless, to support him now he is there.
lam opposed, Sir, to this change in the character of the
royal title. In one word, instead of resting it upon thee
universal spirit of the Constitution, and folding the coy
robe round the Throne and the Altar, xpts hat% it on the
peg of a solitary legal excerlop Of tWo, ridiculous in them-
selves, and insulting in thew nature and effects. The Right '
Hon. Secretary has, indeed, said that the petitions poured
into this' House, numerous and respectable beyond all for-
mpr example since there was a House to receive theut, of
the best security on this occasion ; but he has heai.d
his new friepds night after night scrutinise those petitions
as emanating from poverty, folly, ignorance and bigotry--;
tiberat nondoct I Where then will be the security-when this
national feeling shall have been successfully insulted, damped,
cried down ?—when it shall, therefore, expire in disgust, at
the manner in which it has been disregarded, deserted and
betrayed? Other reasons, powerful as I think in them-
selves, far more important, and in reference to their 'TAN;
press for utterance. But I will not treipiss On the pa-
tience of the House bfaddticing them.' I would rather
fecal' to its tnetru;ry these which have been delivered by the
Right lion. Secretary of State, accompanied with the con-
sequences with which he so often and so ably connected
them--delivered, I say, from his place, which he still keeps
I regret to say, much more tenaciously than his principles.
These, however, have not lost their weight in the country ;
and he has now the hard task of answering thetti*Ossielf:
klo talents inferior td his otvii, i opals Tifincerely, would
he corniietent' tO such a task. He can, however, like Hu-
dibras, " Confute, change sides, and still confute," and his
new friends assure him that this is the true, dignified, con-
sistent, and patriotic course. But if I waive any further
arguments on this important subject, I will nevertheless
make a solitary remark upon the extraordinary nature of
those reasonings which are urged in defence and support of
the present fatal measure. As those arguments evidently
spring from the most opposite .views and motives, so aril
they oftthe Most tchltratliistory nature: 'Vet stato.they ate
all allowed to carry weight, though if they were pressed
from one and the same quarter they would plainly balance '
and negative each other. It is thus that, in this most ex- '
traordinary argument, -contradiction ...d.self is--allowed to
CI
suihnenalradtea
and
de
believed, dei"°n trtabtalotbr...o;leFrhyubsas, onloestpaitrstypoawsseerr_ba
asserts, and'
it has become quite nerveless, despicable, and inert, and
may, therefore, be trusted ; another, on the contrary, says,
Shat its adherents are now.se fon:At-table in numberso4,4l
In overwlifiming Us power, that its, claims *lust be yielded:
Their' too, have full credit for their asSertionS; Que
main-
tains that its spirit is changed and ameliorated ; another,
that it is unchanged and unchangeable. One, that the
conduct of its possessors is so excellent, peaceable, and loyal,
that they merit to be admitted into power ; another that
they are so united, turbulent, and factious, that it is unsafe'
tolteep thesis eut-:-both opinions are gospel. One assures