The Sun.
London, England, 1842-05-24 00:00:00

CUSTOMS ACT.-THE TARIFF.

On the question that the House should resolve it-
self into a Committee on the Customs Bill,
Major VIVIAN presented a petition from Corn-
wall praying that such an alteration might be made
in the tariff, as would prevent undue importation.
- Sir H. PEEL also presented a petition from Corn-
wall, expressing the satisfaction of the petitioners at
the reduction of the duty on copper ore.—(Laughter.)
Mr. MILES presented a petition from Aberdeen
against the proposed alteration in the duty on the
importation of foreign cattle, and praying the House
to give to the agriculturists such protection as would
enable them to compete with the foreigner.
Lord ELIOT rose and said, that as he saw the
Hon. and Gallant Gentleman opposite (Major Vivian)
he wished to say one single word.—(Loud cries of
"No, no," in the midst of which the Noble Lord sat
down.)
. .

Mr:LAWSON said that as the resolution of which
he had given notice would interfere with the progress
of the tariff; and as there Was great anxiety on the
part of the country to see the tariff passed, he should
withdraw his motion.
Mr. CALLAGHAN rose to propose the following
resolution—" That in removing the prohibition to
the importation of any article, there ought not
to be charged any duty on the raw material,
which should not be charged to articles the manu-
facture thereof, and that so long as living animals be
chargeable with a fixed'- .duty, salted provi-
sions should be chargeable with an equivalent
rate, and not removeable from warehouse
without payment thereof except for exportation,
as they would be, should the etiuses referred to in the
tariff -be repealed." (The Honourable Gentleman
spoke in so lOw atone of voice;: and amidst so much
noise in. the House,. that he was scarcely audible.)
The general_ opinion of the gentlemen connected
with the provision-trade in Ireland was, that that
trade would be annihilated if this portion of the
Right Hon- Baronet's measure were carried into effect.
He had given notice by which he intended that the
duty should be hereafter reduced to- 4S. instead
of the Bs. which was now • proposed by the Right
Honourable Baronet. The provision trade of Ireland
now consisted in supplying' the colonial ports,
and would be altogether ruined by the pro-
position of the Fight Honourable Baronet.
Irish provisions were better cured than tiny other,
and the country- would have reason to regret if
anything should be done which would tend to
the annihilation of the Irish provision trade.
Ile Concluded by-moving the resolution of which he had
given notice.
Mr. nocHE seconded the resolution.

Mr. GLADSTONE thought the resolution was
brought forward rather prematurely. In the case of the
provision curers of Ireland, the Legislature had endea
voured to extend an efficient protection to them. In the
Warehousing Act there was a clause to the effect that no
merchantman outward bound should bring provisions fir
exportation without a bond being exacted that those
provisions should be landed at the port of the ship's
destination. That was well. It protected the Irish pro-
vision curer as much as possible. It was impossible to
suppose that they could give their laws such force and
stringency as to extend their operation to foreign ports.
In former times this matter was not of so much conse-
quence as at present. About ten or fifteen years ago he
ventured to say that it was unimportant to the Irish pro-
vision merchant whether the clause he had referred to
existed or not. At the present moment there was a
difference of from 2/. to 21. 10s. in the prices of
Hamburgh and Irish beef. The price of Hamburgh
beef at present,-was at the lowest, five guineas per ton ;
the highest 61. The price of Irish beef in the years 1826
and 1837 was 31. per ton ; in 1831 and 1832, it rose
from 41. 10s. to 51.; in 1835, the price was 5 guineas; in
1837-1838, it rose to 61. So far then as the natural capa-
bilities of Ireland were concerned, the merchant in that
country was able to compete with the foreign owner
of meat. In the years of 1839 and 1840, the price of
cured Irish beef rose to 71. per ton, and in 1841, to 71.
15S. If he was rightly informed, the character of the
Irish provisions, of which the Hon. Gentleman had
spoken with some satisfaction, was at some hazard. He
was told that in many cases the Irish provisions had
suffered from that demand which had drawn off so many
of the Irish cattle to the markets of this country,
and which had also drawn off so large a quantity
of the best salt provisions.—(Hear, hear.) Therefore
the shipowner was in the position of paying for an in-
ferior article an enhanced price ; and the consequence
was, that a great deal of fraud and evs-,sion had been
practised. One method of remedying the evil was to
put an end to the warehousing system as far as provisions
were concerned, and declaring that no provisions should
be put into the warehouse without the exaction of a
duty. He would exceedingly deprecate such a course,
believing as he did, that the warehousing system was a
great benefit to the country. The principle which was
now recognised with respect to provisions was not a new
one. With respect to almost every article of stores that
ships required, they (lid not give to the British producer
a monopoly of supply of shipping. There were orders
of the Custom-house, by which every article, except salt
provisions, if lying in warehouse, might be delivered
without the payment of any dues whatever.—(Hear,
hear.) The lion. Gentleman said it would be unjust to
the Irish merchant that he should be liable to pay a duty
on cattle, from which he would get these salted pro-
visions. He was afraid, in the first place, that if the '
House allowed the Irish provision merchant to import
cattle for the purpose of salting provisions, they would
be introducing a very bad principle ; and, in the second
place, the change in the law now proposed did not alto-
gether take away the protective -market from the Irish
provision merchant. 'There was a demand for salted meat
of that description in the coasting trade of this country.
Before he sat down, he would say what was the state
of the case with respect to the bonds he had referred to
since the passing of theiparehousing Aet. The whole
number of bonds that had passed was 3,126, while the.
certificates received amounted only to 812. One-fourth,
therefore, appeared to be effectual, while three-fourths
were not. So long as Irish provisions were moderate,
it was not difficult to protect them, but when they rose
to an extravagant price it was found impossible to pre-
vent foreigners competing with them.
Mr. LABOUCHERE agreed entirely with the view
taken by the Right Hon. Gentleman who had just sat.
down. He held it to be the true policy of this country
to enable the people to obtain provisions at as cheap a
rate as possible. He admitted, with the Right Hon.
Gentleman, that a great revolution, had taken place in
the south of Ireland with respect to the price of pro-
visions. The price had risen there to a great extent.
The Government had declared that it was highly im-
portant to the country to reduce; the duty on cattle. He
(Mr. Labouchere) hoped they _would extend the prin-
ciple to other articles of consumption. He was glad to
find that the Hon. Member for. Gateshead had given
notice of his intention to move a resolution to allow
foreign corn in bond to be ground for exportation, and
when that motion came before the House, he should
support it. _ _

Mr. ROCHE said if they were to have free trade, in
heaven's name let them have free trade. It was just that I
they should have it. They had all heard free trade
arguments when they cut against Irish interests, but
when in favour of Irish interests the principle of free
trade was denied. By a left-handed blow they were
about to bring the Irish producer of salt meat into a
ruinous competition with the foreign producer.
Sir R. PEEL said that while the lion. Gentleman had
nothing to say against the principles of free-trade, he
added that they were not at liberty to touch any one
article unless they adopted universally the principles cf
free trade, and removed all restrictions and obstructions
whatever. Now, he could not forget the Hon. Gentle-
man's own speech on the subject of Irish oats.—(Hear.)
He doubted whether, by any course he might take, he
could have met the approbation of the Hon. Gentleman.
The Hon. Gentleman must be aware that there was at
present a duty of 12s. on salted meat imported from
abroad, which it was proposed to reduce to Bs. But, as
his Right Hon. Friend had shown, the protection was
quite delusive. The proposed duty was perfectly fair,
and would not place the Irish provision trade iii any dan-
ger. He (Sir R. Peel) believed that the principal danger
to that trade was in the high price of Irish provisions.
Mr. ROCHE explained. He had never made a speech
about Irish oats.—(A laugh.) He had never heard a
discussion in that House upon Irish oats.—(" Yes, yes,"
from Sir IL Peel.) Why, he (Mr. Roche) had not made
so many speeches as the Right Hon. Baronet., and, there-
fore, hecould remember all that he had made.—(Hear.)
Sir IL PEEL begged parclon :lie spoke of the lion.
Member for Cork City.—(Hear, and 'a laugh.)
Lord J. RUSSELL thought that the lion. Gentleman
(Mr. Callaghan) had shown that the protection was de
lusive ; and in answer to what had been said by the
lion. Gentleman (Mr. Roche) who followed, he would
say that it was easy to object to a particularitem in the
tariff, and to say, that unlass the same principle were ap-
plied to every other article; it should be opposed. But
the proper course would be, to apply the principle of fair
competition to every article.—(Hear, hear.) For his
part, wherever that principle was applied he should sup-
port it, and afterwards endeavour to extend it to every
article to which it was now applied by the present Go-
vernment. He believed, that if they applied the prin-
ciple wherever they could, it would work itself properly;
and all those monopolies, and even the new Corn-law,
would give way.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir E. FERGUSON said, that what was complained
of in Ireland was, that the curer of salted provisions had
not sufficient compensation, and had no fair competition
with the foreigner. With regard to the high price of
provisions, he thought it was occasioned by the loss of
cattle in the country, and he believed that in the course
of another year cattle in Ireland would be as cheap as
they were in 1834 and 1837.--(Cheers.)
The gallery was then cleared for a division, but none
took place, the motion (us we understood) being with-
drawn.
The Speaker then left the chair, and the House went
into Committee on the Customs Act.
DUTY ON CA'T'TLE.

Mr. %Y. =MILES rose to move his resolution—" That

the duties to be levied on live stock imported from fo-
reign countries for the purpose of food, be taken by
weight." He said, in justice to his constituents he had
thought it right to move it at this early period of the
debate, Concurring as he did in the opinion of many,
thrt the alarm that had been spread throughout the
country relative to the tariff, especially as to the duty
on cattle and live stock, was well founded. He thought
there was nothing left for them but to endeavour to
obtain for the agricultural interest a fair and
only a fair protection.—(Hear, hear, hear.) Taken
as a whole he believed the scheme of finance offered by
the Right Hon. Baronet was a most perfect, full, and
ample system, and such an one as had never before been
offered by any Minister in a time of comparative peace ;
and, generally speaking, it had received a considerate,

though perhaps rehictan4 apprapprobationitn the country.
i
The burden was now placed on the rig It. shoulders
the Right Hun. Baronet had brought rem ,tied a , decided
remedy, and direct. taxation was teov calle4 on to relieve
the embarrassed Exchequer. He need net state the
almost unanimous support which the Right flo ii. Baronet
had received from that phalanx of coarary 'll/bers by
whichhe was surrounded. They had gone elo "g with
the Right lion. Baronet as far as they ctoirld.—(t Opposi-
tion cheers.) They had gone along with him Intl. Ussmg
the Corn-law Bill. They had listened in sileoce to /h.; un-
merited taunts of lion. Gentletnen opposite, in ort er
that the business of the House might not be int errupteitl
but the present was an occasion when, in justice to the'
constituents, they were bound .to make that oppositions
which the subject demanded. In the Curn-law Bill they'
had little to -consider, except the ditierent amounts or
duty proposed by the Right Hon. Baronet, but in the•
present instance they had to grope amidst a mass of ma-
terials, and they were called on to consent tl, a seine
of duties which, if carried into vtillt• without alteration„
would be most detrimental to the agricultural interest-
Hehad been asked out of doors why he brought forward!
that motion—whether he would fere better if the Noble!
Lord opposite should take the place ttccupimi by bib.
Right lion. Friend, to whose general policy he rented.
He contended that that was not a•point upon whit* aLy
Munster could be called upon to. throw up the reirreovi
Government.—(lleac, hear.) Ittwas simply one of de-
!ail, and as a question of detail it must be discussed. Ara
onmense number of deputations had attended the Board'
in Trade, and he was happy to say that they had been
heard with attention, and many .alterations had been
i made n the tariff; which shouted that the Government;

were anxiotrs to do justice to all parties.—(Hear, hear.)
The light Hon. Baronet had held out to them the hope!
of deriving benefit from the reduction which would take,
place in several articles consioned by the agricultural'
interest ; amongst others, he had insiunced clover, rape-
seed, and, to his great astonishment, onion seed. He
would ask the Right Hon. Gentleman whether he thOught

t he reduction on those articles was not more than balaneed

by the re:luetion made in the('urn-laws?—(l.lear, hear.)
The Eight lion. Baronet had stated that the panic had
_ _

subsitle4. lie admitted the l:iet

Ti►ere wo; no -44..nibt

that when the farmers threw their beasts in great quail-

titles into the market, a great change in many respects
would be the result. There was a deep feeling that in.
the tariff the interest of the in mier3 bud not been pro-
perly considered. He thought this was el great import,-
and he hoped the Right II AL Baronet would take:
it into his special emmideratioe. }lad the Bight Hon.
Baronet considered the price of artiticials in tins *nil

other countries? If he had not, he would enlighten him on
the subject. Iliad the Eight Hon. Baronet considered
the relation of landlord and tenant, and, did he suppose.
if the profits of the farmer were diminished, that he
would be able to pay the same we.ges ? lie would
now . call the attention of • the (tight lionourablo
BsrOnet to the prices of artiticials, oil cake, and
barley, in this country and Denmark.—(llear, hear.)
lie a o.dd compare the price olartificials in this country
with the price of artiticials in those parts of the Conti-
nent front which our supplies of provisions and live
aui-

mak Nvere most likely to eome. the price of oil•eake in
thiseountry.last year was ten guineas-a ton; in Denmark
it was six guineas a ton. The "nice or barley in this

country lasi year was 30s. a quarter ; in Deninark it was
1.55. a quarter.—(Loud Opposition cheers ) Now let
them consider the tin:llo4y of these•artific;als consumed

on a farm. He would take a thrm-of 1;100 acres in this

country as an example, and on a farm of that size last

year there had been consutned to tons of oil-eake, cost-
ing 105/., and 200 quarters of barley, costing :10W. ; mak-
ing an expenditure for artificial; in the course of last
year of 403/. Now look at 1); innark, there the cost of
10 tons of oil-cake would have been 01., and of 200

quarters of barley 1501., making a total expen-
diture in artificials of 213/. ; showing that the

cost was 1981. less in Denmark than in England.
Now that was an ing-redient for consideration in

awarding protection. He did -not want a high protec-
tion, but if they were to have protection, let them have
a fair protection ; and when they found that the cost of
artificials was so much less to the Danish farmer than
to the English farmer: that certainly must enter as an,
ingredient into their calculations. 'Then, let the Com-
mittee look into the different rate;; of duty proposed to
be levied on the different animals, and on the various
articles of provisions. On all fresh and half salted meat,
including beef, mutton, veal, and pork, there was to be
levied aduty of Bs. per cwt. • The duty on live animals,
however, was very different. On an ox it was 11., -a cow,
155., a calf, 10s., a sheep, 35., a pig, ss. ; pig-tneat, how-
ever, was in some instances subject to a higher duty than.
Ss., for the duty on bacon and halos was 14s. Now, to
illustrate the difference between the duty on meat, and
the duty on live animals, he would calculate what the
duty might to be on an ox. He would take the weight
of an ox at six cwt., because he thought that would be
about the average weight of. each ox that would be
imported. He therefore, took the animal meat. The-
duty chargeable on the animal was 2/. Bs. The hide and
the tallow would he about one-half cwt. each. The duty
on the hide wet, would be about lAA. per cwt., and tallow
Bd. So that the animal killed 4f-broad and sent to this
country, would be charged about 2/. 95., 81rd. ;
but if the animal were sent alive, it would pay
11. duty, from which they must deduct the.
duty on the hide, which would come in duty free,
which would leave IBs. 31d. He would take
the hog of three cwt., which would be imported alive at
• ss. If it were imported fresh or half-salted, it would be
1/. 4s. ; if, on the contrary, it was sent as bacon or haul,
it would be 11. Bs. Thus there oould be an advantage
to the foreigner in sending the animal :dive, of 11. (Is. id.
it' he sent it as fresh meat, and 4d. as bacon ; ro
that it appeared to him that do importation would be
made from the neighbouring ciinutries except that of
living animals. The Hon. Gentleman then went through
a minute statement of the cost in "England, of bringing
up an ox to the weight of 6001 b., and ,p hug to the weight
of 3001 h., but it was impossible to follow him correctly
in his details, as they were heard in the gallery. - lie
said. that it' at the same time the House consid(Ted the
different price of labour, the difference yr rent sod of
tax, in this country and abroad, there. a ould be no doubt
that; in these respects the foreigner had the advantage.
There would be no difficulty, he believed. in obtaining
cattle from Hamburgh, and other towns on the Conti-
:wilt, which would become the ',,reat foei of the provision
trade, if. the new tariff were adopted.. Belgium JIM'S' ex-
ported to France 17,000 head of cattle. Ile found front
the inquirieS he had made, that oxen could be imported
from Ostend, with the payment,of the duty and all ex-
penses, At 151. 15s. Od. ; from, Rostock for 151. 16s. Gd.•;
front Dantzic. for 131. 14s. 6d. ; from Elsinore for
121. 2s. Gd. ; and the loss to the English grazier; if the
importation were from Ostend would be 11. Ils. Od. ;
from, Rostock 1/. 18s. 6d. ; from Dantzie 2L 11s. 6d. ;
and from Elsinore 4/. 13s. 6d. It should be observed,
that an erroneous impression seemed to prevail, relative
to the price of beef in.this country ; he found that the
average wholesale price in Smithfield market during the
last year, amounted to sixpence. To maintain the ave-
rage, they must be sometimes at. fourpence, and some•
times at sixpence 4 at those prices it would be impossi-
ble to maintain the same rate of rent. Taking the. ave-
rage, the price of foreign oxen from the ports whence
they might be exported would be 5/. 15s. Od. The im-
port. duty on an ox in France, which was partly customs,
partly oetrui, was 31., yet in one year the number im-
ported was 17,000. Ail asked for was a fair pro-
tection, to enable the English farmer to compete
with the foreigner. He would also tall the attention of
the House to the danger of destroying the trade in salted
provision from Ireland, which would lead to a greater
importation of live cattle front that country. Then,
with, regard to the United States, ii.they looked at the
capability of that country, at the immense quantity of
land cultivated and uncultivated it contained, and the
prices of salt provisions there, the Right Hon. Baronet
must admit that there was no reason to fear the impor-
tation from Hamburgh or any IA of the continent of
Europe, but that the whole of the supply of the salt pro-
visions must come from the United States. The Hon.
MeMber then read an extract from the New Orleans
Price Journal. stating that in nine States, containing a
population of five millions and a half, there was a great
abundance of cattle, meat, and corn, and a great scarcity
of articles of clothing and manufacture, and that the
latter might be obtained from England but for legislation
which prevented a fair interchange, and that it was
of great importance to , them • that these articles
should be admitted at a moderate- duty. He trusted
that if the Right Honourable Baronet should see
no difficulty in fixing the duty rather upon live animals,
he would adopt that mode of taxation. If the Right
lion. Gentleman would not do so,..he (Mr. M.) should
think it his duty to oppose that part of the tariff which
referred to this subject. Be thought at all events, he
bad 111:1(1C out a case for the consideration of the Right
llon. Baronet. The Bon. Gentleman .concluded, by
the motion of which he bad given notice.
Mr. li. PAIZIER seconded the motion.

Air. WYNDHAM said that, as,a Member for an agri-
cultural eounty;he_ had, not heard of, any general punk
on the subject7or the tariff.—(llear, hear.) The lion.
Member might have heard of it, in the county with which
he was connected, but in his ( M r. Wyndh.ain's) county
there w•as no panic. . When th) talked on the subject,
the tiling to be considered m a:, !hat fereignerS had got
no cattle to bring 'into this t•ouutry---i(Laughter)---or at
leastithey were so bad that there was no fear to the
, home farmer from them. . .

The Earl of MAIICH would. ibt have troubled the
House had it not been for w hat had fallen from his
now Colleague. lie differed from every syllable that
his Hon. Colleague had uttered.--(Cheers and laughter)
—and he could assure the House that, in the part of
the county with which he was connected, the greatest
complaints were made against the tariff.
Mr. G. J. lIEATIICOTE felt that he was contend-
ing against fearful odds in supporting the motion of
the Hon. Member for East .Soniersetshire inasmuch as
they had the leaders of both sides of the house leagutd
against them. He would not •exiovg,rate. the state of
panic into which the agricultural' interest had been
thrown by the announeement of the proposed changes in
the tariff, but lie could assure them that the strongest
feelings existed on the subject, and that the consequence
had been an enormous depreci:Lt t in, the .vahle of pro-
duce. Country gentlemen of moderate fortune, yeomen
possessing a stnall property, and the tenantry generally,
complained that the Right Baronet had laid an in-
come-tax on them, and had at the SWIM' time diminished
their means of paying it, by depreciating the price ,of
their produce.—(l leer, hear.) hey complained that he
had relieved the other parts of the community at their
e.xpense.—(Cheers.) The Right lion. Baronet hal
eitsit
shot:
be
ex- etrie,
en-
gaged in three great experiments, which no man could
,Iyas admitted on all
rived from those ex-
periments tthhaet results.
i
were to be for the commercial and manufac-
turing interests, while all the risk and all the loss was
on die side of the agricultural interesi.. The Right Hon.
Baronet had mainly based his proposition on the assumed
fact, that it would be for the benefit of the country that
the price of living should be made cheaper, and argued
that .he price of meat had risen to an improper height.
The Right Hon. Baronet had taktei the prices of 16?5
as his standard ; but what were the circumstances of the

country in 1835 ? It was the time of the most, bitter
agricultural distress that had ever occurred within the
memory of man in this country. The price of wheat
was then 0n1y.395. a quarter. There had been nothing
so -deplorable, even during the worst period of the Ame-
rican .war. In 1833, a Committee of that House had sat
to consider the question of agricultural distress. In
1836, a Committee had again been appointed to investi-
Rte the causes of agricultural distress ; and the Right
LAM Baronet took the years between these two periods,
es the basis on which his new arrangements were to take
place. If the-Right Hon. Baronet chose to take 1835
as his standard, he (Mr. G. Heathcote) might take 1812
sta his standard, when wheat was 1265. a quarter, and
the price of meat, for Greenwich Hospital, was 85s. a
cwt. ; and he argued that, as the price was now 565., the
fall which had taken place, as compared with 1812, was
greater than the rise, -as compared with 1835. He was
surprised to hear the Right Hon. Baronet make use of
such an argument ; and he would ask him (Sir R. Peel)
what would have taken place at the last election, if, in-
stead of talking about protection to agriculture, he (Sir
R. Peel) had proposed, as a compromise, the prices of
1835 ?—(Loud cheers.) The Hon. Member for Sussex
had said that, at present, there was no immense stock of
cattle abroad, from which any very large importation
could come; but a wise statesman should adapt his legis-
lative measures not merely to present convenience, but to
future contingencies. The only thing which had prevented
the fertile countries in thenorth of Europe from increasing
their stock was the uncertainty of the market, and now
that the market of England would be a certain one,
there could be no doubt but that their stock of cattle
and their importations to this country would increase.
Let them take the case of wool. In Prussia, in 1816,
the number of Merino sheep was only three millions,
and in 1837 these had increased toneatly eleven millions
—so that in twenty years there had been an increase of
eight millions in this kind of stock. Could any one be-
lieve that if there was a more lucrative mode of ap-
plying capital that they would not increase in a still
greater ratio? In every town on the Continent they
found a colony of English labourers, and this was an-
other advantage to the foreigner. There was another
thing which ought •to be recollected, which was,
that in the consideration of this subject they
ought to consider not merely the retail prices
at which meat could be sold in towns, but the
wholesale price at which it could be exported. The
Right:Hon. Gentleman in his calculations took his prices
from thotgreat towns, such as Hamburgh. It was the
smaller towns that he should have taken, and this was
*he opinion of Mr. Meek. An Hon. Gentleman had
-given the House some account of the prices which pre-
vailed in other countries. Perhaps he (Mr. Heatheote)
might be allowed to state what those prices were, by
putting the weight of the animal into English stones.
Hu found that the price of an ox of 6001bs. that was

as-seone, was only 7/. He found that the prices of sheep
were from 4s. to 20s. weighing 801bs. In Elsinore he
• found that beef way 205., •to 265. per cwt., something
more . than 2d. but less than 3d. a pound. In Prussia
and Hamburgh it was nearly the same. The Right
lion. Gentleman stated, that fears had been expressed
that beef would be brought over to this country at 3d. a
pound, and said that this fear was unfounded; but ac-
cording to Mr. Meek, the retail price of beef on the
Continent was 3y. per pound. But it was argued, that
the distance would act as a prevention to the cattle
coming over; but did not Hon. Gentlemen know that
cattle came from the north of Scotland, a distance of
700 or 800 miles? Then it was said that the sea voyage
would be a preventative; but were not great quantities
of cattle brought from Ireland ?—(Hear, hear.) He
believed that Lancashire was almost entirely
supplied from Ireland: He (Mr. Heathcote) could not
help saying that there vas some unfairness in the tariff,
•seeing that one of the greatest monopolies, that of the
shipping interest, was benefited to the amount of
600,0001. by the reduction of the duty on timber, and yet
they left the monopoly untouched. But the free trade
principles of Hon. Gentlemen opposite was protection
for themselves and free trade for all the world else.
He thanked the house for having so patiently listened
W him.
Mr. GLADSTONE said the Hon. Gentleman who
had just sat down had, in- the course of his speech, said
that by the new scale of duties the agriculturists were
to suffer all the loss, and trade was to reap the exclusive
benefit and advantage. To answer this argument would
be a waste of time, and he (Mr. Glad Stone), therefore,
evould venture to leave that argument to the House, and
to the Hon. Gentlemen opposite to settle that part of
the account with the lion. Gentleman. lie did not mean
to say, however, that the question immediately before the
House was not one of very great importance. In entering
into this subject, he could not help expressing his satis-
faction at the fairness aad moderation of tone with
which it had been introduced by the Hon. Gentleman
'who had made the motion and the Hon. Gentleman who
had seconded it ; and further he must say, that nothing
could be more fair than the Hon. Gentleman, the Mem-
ber for Somerset. The object which he had in view was
ten equitable and fair protection, such as would enable the
English farmer to compete with the continental breeder
of cattle. He (Mr. Gladstone) thought his Hon. Friend
must be persuaded, as must every lion. Gentleman there,
that that. ivas also the object of her Majesty's Govern-
ment. They had no idea whatever, in the consideration
of the subject, that the English farmer would be placed
in such a situation by the proposed change as to render
him incapable of competing with the foreigner. lie
ventured to state, what he had stated in that House
before, that those` gentlemen who were themselves the
iniemates, as he might say, of the science of agri-
eulture, did sot "always cherish that powerful
source of real strength which British agricul-
ture derived from its own energy, by which he
believed the most- lucrative income would be
derived., lie must commence what he had to say with
the observation, that nothing would induce him, humble
ae he was, to concur in a proposition which he believed
li!toly to be injurious to the interests of the country. lie
must say, that although he was averse to the principle
stud practice of drawing' distinctions between different
industrious classes of the community, yet he must say,
it' distinctions were to be drawn, they ought to be drawn
iu favour of agricultural industry. Having said this, he
enlist told, that the Right lion. Gentleman at the head
of the Government would have failed in his duty to the
country, if he had proposed less than that which he had
proposed for the adoption of the House. Something had
been said with respect. to an alarm prevailing at the pre-
sent moment, and the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat
flown spoke of the depression in agricultural stock in con-
sequence of the publication of the tariff. Now with're-
spect to the price of meat, he could not help saying, that
the Hon. Gentleman ought to have remembered that there
had been a depression in the prices of articles to which.
the tariff did not apply. The Hon. Gentleman (the
Member for Somerset) stated, that there had been appree
beusions with respect ,to sheep and mutton. He (Mr.
Gladstone) did not think the Hon. Gentleman could tell
-him that the relative prices of mutton and beef were dif-
•ferent this spring to the relative prices of last year.
Therefore, he did not see how the publication of the tariff
bad caused this depression. But even if it were so, it was
unreasonable to make that an objection to the proposition
u 1 the Right Hon. Baronet. Look at the accounts they
..were receiving from all parts of the country of the cattle
&ire. lie happened to hold in his hand an extract
irons a recent publication. It was an account .of 'three
fairs, and he would read them for the information of the
two Hon. Members fur Sussex. (The Right lee.
Meln-
bee reed an extract from an Trish newspaper, stating that
the Carlow lair harbeen well attended, and high prices
had been maintained. The same good account was from
Waterford.) lie hoped these accounts would serve to
dies:pate their apprehensions. He did not 'think
that the agriculturists were better able to judge
• these things than themselves. He did not
think they ought to snake this alarm a cardinal rule
for theit proceedings. He gave a great deal of credit to
the lion. Member for Somerset, for his opening speech,
but. he Claimed to himself credit for his motionbeinc, iu
telligible. Now he did not think that this was borne
out by the motion. In his motion, the Hon. Member
did not say whether the duty to be levied was Ss. per
cwt. or Is. 6d. per cwt. This certainly was a most ma-
terial question. It would be a pretty consolation for his
lion. / riend, if the Government were to propose a duty
of Is. per cwt. But he supposed he meant something
like 4s, or ss. This was a question of theoretic accu-
racy on the one hand, and convenience on the other.
They had to choose between the amount of -a precise
duty, and the disadvantages, the delays, and inconve-
niences that this theoretic accuracy would bring. The
• great objection to levying this duty was, that they must
have an apparatus for the purpose. In order to perform
the operation, they must have a weighing apparatus
erected for the purpose, and also quays made on purpose.
They mast have ships discharged there, and there
would be great delay to the commerce of the docks. And
they must recollect that all this time lost was an addi-
tion to taxation._(Hear, hear.) They ought to adopt
the plan which was the simplest, and offered the least •
obstruction to business. The Ibin. Gentleman, the '
Member for Somerset, and the agriculturists whom he
represented, had complained that the proposed duty on
spring corn was ruinous. —(Cheers.) Now there was
tha duty on the importation- of meat, which was even
lower than the duties on Spring corn, Then there was
the duty on live cattle, which was still lower. These
were all subjects of Complaint to the Hon. Member. lle
(Mr. Gladstone) would contend that a duty
weight. n
wasetyofi:et
fair duty, and Preferable to a duty
would not then go into a comparison of the duties on
corn and the duty on wheat, the questionof corn
as he
Housethoughtto itdo so.—
would
having been disposed of,
be wasting the time of the
(Hear, hear.) But he would tall
levied on the the compari-
s.in of Bs. per cwt. duty, and 1
whole ox. He thought, in the first place, that they had
the advantage of both lean and fat. There
_were several
reasoee whv this duteeshoeld not be levied. by weight.
With reepe:et to the duty on the dead as comp/net to I.lle
live aril .ui, they must consider that it had arrived at its
ultitaxte :sate sif manufacture and was ready for lama.-
di la; tolusumption. The last process of labour was
finished. Tins was one reason why he thought that the
cut ought to he sands higher than that on the' live animal.
Tiff' s~i'eellltds ail ii !deli he argued that wae, first, the (lif-
t-hi-Tee t f reehene [Lou. Friend had completely
out "4: Dead -meat was ill/W coming largely
Sr, en Seutkinit, and what was the vast diGrence between
the live arid dead freight to which his lien. Friend hail
referred The fair way to try the question was to look
at the charges on,dead and on live meat. Now with re,
spect to the meat coming from Hamburg')' the live ox
paid 2/. as fare, and ss. as expenses, and the duty was
1/. Is., making altogether 3/. 6s. He would suppose the
dead ox to be six •cwt., and upon that altogether there
would be a payment of 3l los., so that the mighty dis-
crepaney-whieh had been referred to consisted in, the,
difference of 3/. 6s. and 3/. 10s. There was then another
subject to be taken into consideration, anti that was, that
different parts of the carcaso of an ox.varita
e.dsworth
in value 2
he believed that one-third part of the ox v
:
pat cent more value than the other parts,
and itm
thi. rafore probable that the Hamburgii hatcher
wag to this couAtry the best parts and keep the rest for
• ~ • • •