Star.
London, England, 1808-03-01 00:00:00

•..

,
,itarei GoCOIGNE had had tie honosi of
..„.,iir iisiset. Loot,. ,Lake,, antrhe nhciPld trot have
5Y''....., the Question at all, had it not been that lie ,
yoke° 'tins 'something in. ilie arguments of the
04,14. Baronet, cakilkteil__ to excite diicontent
1101°': ds'of theltoille......{ Load crib if. " Rear!"
Aeon .. • Honourable Baronet- hid not
P —goisers).,
the merits or transcendent services or . the
4:t°4 rAker and he AVd fro.us_hins and the
112,14,00 .. .site(Lordio estone) M. every. oint
irr,., • ~ . . .
Pr2l stated, thit it was iMPos,sible for
ril
Pr isitt• 'A.._ pension, though he did not like it so
01'
Pectiveir is 1803. It was a just reward in
nue6
t 4 of merit, and no individual was ever better
2160,1°441i such a reward than Lord Lake. Mir.isters
to be cautious whom they advanced to a
°•°-
as it was improper for persons to be in:
with such honours, witkout adequate mean
gipped that rank. . With ?espect to a Monument,
a tribuCe of respect was never paid but to an
mortal
~„ ut, or who received a wound in
te7,4 and in this instance such was not the can.
'C-,.,o'rd GEORGE CAVENDISH agreed with the
Homu-able Member who spoke last, that titles ought
so besto-
wPd without great consideration, both
t be
.o•Ttbe services of the
.individual and of Ws means to
sgat the d Y
t and independence of de Peerage.
Be thought the Peerage was often very improperly
military men, whose services were by means
sit% to
.This, however, was not the case
of the first
to the gallant Officer, whose merits and
Welt resPect
u were now under consideration. He
moose claims House would •
should think the act in a niggardly
nom' ,if they were to refuse what was now proposed
foi. the folify of Lord Lake. . 1
Mr. LYTTLETON said, that although he did 1
;wt pretend to be a perfect judge of the military merit
of Lord Lake, yet every body had ag
was d that the
•of the Noble Lord were conspicuous, and that I
idley were not of the first class, they at least ap-
pm/inured very much to the first class. Instead of
wwishing that services of this nature should be rewarded
by gildwn without the intervention of Parliament,
he s wish the rewards of merit and public ser-
lice to flow more immediately from the people. He
wished the patronage of the Crown was retrenched ;
ad he thought the Ministers would have come down
to the House with much more grace, if, when they
made an application for this grant, they had pdinted
out a corresponding retrenchment.
The SECRETARY at WAR bore testimony to
the professional merit and important services of Lord
Like. Hethought, that upon constitutional grounds,
h would be dangerous and improper that poverty and
the peerage should be associated together. 1
Mr. TIERNEY expressed a fear that it would be
considered, that the House shoved too great a rea.di-
nes to dispose of the public money. He agreed
ik* with the Honourable Baronet, that the House
amid anxiously watch over the expenditure of the
yeblic money ; but he did not think the people would
not him for his anxiety in watching over the public
expenditure, so far as to refuse a well-merited reward
a a gallant Officer. The first question which he
thought ought to be considered was, whether he had
deserved the Peerage or not ; and secondly, whether
the grant proposed was a proper one ? He would not
however allow, that whenever a Peerage was granted
m accomit of military services, a pension should be
votedhl that House. He should now take the op-
portunity to lay in his claim to protest against this
doctrine m a future day, if it should be proposed in
favour of other new-made Peers. But, as for Lord
Lake, it must be allowed that it was almost impos-
sible for any British Officer to be placed in a higher
or more responsible situation than he was ; and
then the question would be, how did he perform
his duty in that situation i It had been gene-
rally
admitted, that no officer amid have conducted
himself with more integrity. He could speak frcim
the means of information which the situation he had
lately held (President of the Board of Con roil) gave
him. The merits of Lord Lake were not merely in
the field of battle, but he conducted himself with
reit ability in some delicate negotiations with the
naive powers cf India. He thought a perwn placed
ia a high and responsible situation, and who was emi-
mtly successful, did deserve the Peerage, and that
the grant proposed was not too much. The utmost
pession which the Crown had the power of bestow-
% which was 12001. per annum nominally, but
really no more than 8001. would be by no means an
'Pilate remuneration for such services. As to a
pubai monument, he would wish that that honour
should be reserved exclusively to those Generals who
received their death in the field of battle. The East
India Company were, however, often liberal in those
things; and as his principal. services had been per-
formed in India, he thought it would be becoming in
them to take this part of the expense upon themselves.
IMr. TAYLOR said, that from the arguments he
had now heard, he wished to retract the opinion he
had expressed about the public monument. He de-
fended_ the observations of the Honourable Baronet
from the constructions which had been put upon them
Sir FRANCIS BURDETT said, that he had been
Tx:3st entirely misrepresented by the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer), as to what
he had said about the means which the Crown pos-
se!Pid of rewarding eminent services. He had nest
?Lpled to the pension list, or thought of it ; he al-',
hided directly to the great offices, sinecures and re-
'etsons, which Ministers always pretended were ne-
cesnary, in order to allow the Crown the means of
:warding eminent services. He was surprised that
the Right Hon. Gentleman should have mistaken his
.weaning so widely, especially when that Right Hon. 1
Gentleman need not look beyond his own family to
fumy, what sort of sinecures and reversions the Crown
tad to bestow as the reward of eminent services. If
Ittaisters had come doWn and told the House, that it
'vas Parliament alone ishicti'ought to assign the re-
to eminent services, and that therefore all those
toeless sinecures, reversions and incumbrances should
be done away, the question would be entirely altered,
and he should then have no objection to vote a liberal
Irnuneration for any eminent services performed to
u* country : the Right Hon. Gentleman best knew
*hat kind of services it was which was rewarded by
such sinecures as his family and many others pos=es-
std. Their eminent services might be well known by
the Servants of the Crown, but the people of the
country knew nothing about them. Whenever the
5.1 ghtest service was rendered which could bear the
light, or which could be stated to Parliament, therti

fotn
Lrse,
np?'

sic/
stela
erty'
x'.3 a
fly or

ti ''-e
iv.►te-
~f
the
ydid
Pen'
:fond
eu)L.-

- 'a • % , 'i . si- . •
was an immediately applies Atm for a reward, which
iir4e nest ti? come from what was in the. patroit age„4.
*e Crown,. but 'fin. in an additional burden iinposed
=the people., An. Honourable Gentleman (Mr.'
es),lii!,4 thought it necessary to disclaiM hisso- ,
!ideal oemok% and all participation in them. , his
disclaiming of the Hononrable Gentleman's Should
not, however, Make him hesitate. to state those opi-
nions, to the House, whenever he was convinced that
he was prompted by no indirect view, that he was la-
bouring from no party motives, or any Wish toring
in one set of Ministers or turn out another ; * bri
but exer-
cising that duty of,a Member of Parliathent which he
conceived himself most peculiarly called upon to dis-
charge..., Standing, as he did, on a great constitutional
ground, he did not feel that he was called upon to
enter into a discussion on the personal merit of Lord
Lake. Discussions of this sort were always most dis-
agreeable ; and there could be nothing more painful
to a Gentleman than to be obliged to say any thing
which would appear to derogate from the merit of
a gallant Officer who is no more, and who. ap-
pears to have been beloved, and perhaps very de-
servedly, by his brother Officers. He should, how-
ever, say, that the services of Lord Lake were
not of the most distinguished rank ; they were no-
thing like the services of Lord Nelson. He did
not know that the country owed any particular gra-
titude to iiim ; and he thought, that if one tenth
part of the. reward which had been given to Lord
Lake in his life-time had been distributed among
many other gallant officers, whose merits had been
unrewarded, the army would have been much better
contented. It was the opinion of many persons that
his rewards far exceeded his services. As to the great
victory that was spoken of at Delhi, he must ask, who
ever went to India that did not win battles ? [Hear !
hear !] When the brilliant victories of Lord Lake
were mentioned, he might, if he pleased, mention
also some remarkable failures. He did not wish,
however, to go into this discussion, because he rested
his argument not upon the circumstances of this pe-
culiar case,but upcai the general constitutional ground.
He would not be prevailed upon by any falso colour-
ing of the services of this man, or of that man, to
depart from the general ground of objection which
he had considered it his duty to take. He should,
therefore, persevere in taking the sense of the House;l
he should use this common expression, although in
fact the sense of the House was known as well before
a division as after it. Another Right Honourable
Gentleman (Mr. Tierney) had appeared very anxious
to guard himself from any suspicion that, by his vote
to-night, he was departing from those political opi-
nions which he professed himself to have been so
constantly attached to. The Right Honourable Gen-
tleman might make himself quite easy upon that
head. He might be sure that he would not be sus-
pected of acting from any other sort of principles
than those which had hitherto guided his political
conduct. After the explanation which had been made
of the sentiments he had before delivered by an Hon.
Gentleman (Mr. Taylor), he did not feel it neces-
sary for him to make any further explanations ; but
as he conceived that the present motion went to lay an
additional and unnecessary incumbrance on the bur-
thened and exhausted people of this country, he must
persevere in his intention of resisting it to the utmost,
and dividing the House upon i
Mr. BIDDULPH spoke for some time in a low
tone of voice, but was frequently interrupted by the
cry of Question! Question! We conceived him to speak
in favour of the motion.
The Gallery was then cleared for a division. While
strangers were excluded, the House divided twice.—
The first was upon the grant of the pension generally:
Ayes 210----Noes 2F.
The second division was (as we understand) upon
the pension being granted from the date of the battle
at Delhi.—Ayes 202—Noes 15.
NEGOCIATION.
Mr. WHITBREAD apologised to the House with
regard to his health, and was afraid he could not per-
form the arduous task which he imposed on himself,
agreeable to the notice he had given on a former day;
but notwithstanding, if it was the wish of the other
side, he would go on.
Lord Castlereagh spoke_ across the table, and, as
we understood, wished Mr. Whitbread to go on.
Mr.W HIT B RE AD resumed,and said that the Co-
mmissioners who delivered his Majesty's Speech, gave a
hope that all the Papers respecting the Russian Medi-
ation would be laid before the House ; but the House
saw with what difficulty they had obtained the few
now on the table, which was a convincing proof that
Ministers had acted improperly, and was fearful of
1
that reprobation which their conduct so justly merit-
'
ed. We are now arrived at an important crisis, and
certainly he must say, that opportunities had been
most shamefully neglected, when a peace was attain-
able on honourable terms through the mediation of
Russia. The war in which we are engaged is conti-
nued year after year, without any hope of its being
terminated, without knowing the precise object in
contention ' • but he would call to the recollection of
the House the number of Petitions which are daily
pouring in upon us from the manufacturing towns ;
and he hoped that would at once open the eyes of Mi-
nisters as to the real situation of the Country. He
was a real friend to freedom, and was glad to see the
people exercise the right they possessed of sheaving
their displeasure at the measures proposed by his Ma-
jesty's Ministers. During the American war, such
\Petitions had the desired effect of bringing about a
peace with that country, and he anticipated the like
result from this instance of public virtue. As for him-
self, he was. a determined advocate for peace, and an
avowed enemy to perpetual war. He maintained that
peace on honourable terms could be had even at the
present mcm.mt ;—what then could be cr. r cbj ct in
carrying on the war, when it was impossible to distress
our enemy in any vulnerable point ? Therefore he felt
extremely anxious to dispel the cloud of error which
prevailed over the people at large, arising from a
cause which he would not trace to its original source,
but chiefly from a notion that no effcrt on our part
could bring about so desirable an object as what the
manufacturers w's'ied. Ministers had exulted in the
battles of Eylau and Friedland, and vainly imagined
that the career of Bonaparte had been stopped, but the
latter battle had occasioned the peace of Tilsit, con-
sequently put words in his Majesty's mouth, which'
imported that it was a disastrous calamity to the Rus-'
sian empire. Yet it would be seen that the Emperor
Alexander had acted wisely. He could not defend
himself with an inferior army, notwithstanding the

• f! A ••
exultation of Ministers. Theisit was; he was routed
in every direetinti, thereiere it Was wise in hint to pre-
vide for his oivn safety, and it was equally so in Bo-
naparte, to 'stop in the canter Of glory and
..*ety.—
The,llaissian EmperO.- was,. wider all these 'circam-
stance, rt 4 strongly unpressed with friendship inwards
this country that he solicited the n•ench to
terminate the war, and brine about a gene M Nice.
General Thai:Mere communicated these circumstances
to Lord G. L. Gower. The evidence before the
House was a convincing
.Proof of the disposition of
the Emperor to mediate an favour of his ally. The :
offer was not made so as to restrict us in time, which
wasieft entirely to our own convenience ; unhappily,
however, the offer was rejected in a manner that
gave disgust to the sincerity of his views, by insisting
on the disclosure of the secret articles of the treaty of
Tilsit, and renewing the CoMniercial Treaty. Mini-
sters therefore treated hilit like a 'child, as if he had
no discretion of his own'.
,Budberg persisted that there'
was not a single article in the treaty of Tilsit relating
to England, or to exclude its commerce from the
Russian ports. But our Wise Ministers would not be-
lieve this ; they charged Budberg with duplicity, and
insulted his master, who had been led to the very verge
of ruin to espouse our cause. Austria, on the other
hand, had been treated with equal contempt, who, so
late as the month of November last, offered her good
offices to bring about a general.peace, communicated
to us by desire of Bonaparte ? Would Ministers stand
up and deny these facts ? It was evident that they
neglected the means put in their power to obtain
peace. The Hon. Member maintained it was not yet
too late, it was desirable, and why not comply with the
wishes of the people. It was no degradation to apply
in direct terms to Bonaparte ; Then if he refused, he
was certain it would unite the people at large, who
would consider their privations as nothing. He was
equally certain, France was as willing to conclude a
peace as we were, and he hoped no opportunity would
be lost. The war, however, had taken a new turn,
and we were wisely told by Ministers that they would
compel the enemy to make peace upon any terms, by
depriving him of bark. That was thetwildest scheme
that ever entered the brain of a Minister, and he
trusted it would be abandoned. The Hon. Member
then submitted the following Resolutions :
Resolved-Ist. That it is the opinion of this House, that the
conditions stipulated by his Majesty's Ministers for the acceptance
of the mediation of the Emperor of Russia were inexpedient and

impolitic.
2dly, That it is the opinion of this House, that the conduct of
his Majesty's Ministers on the refusal of the mediation offered by
the Emperor of Austria, was inexpedient and impolitic, and not
calculated to ascertain how far the restoration of the blessings of
Peace might, or might not, have been attainable through the
means of such mediation.
idly, That the House feels it incumbent on itself to declare,
that there is nothing in the present circumstances of the war which
ought to preclude his Majesty from embracing every fair opportu-
nity of acceding to or commencing a Negotiation with the enemy,
on a footing of equality, for the termination of hostilities, on terms
of justice and honour.
Mr. PONSONBY was disposed to blame the con-
duet of Ministers, in not accepting of the means they
had in their power of participating in a general peace;
but still he could not agree with the 3d Resolution of
his Honourable Friend, as it would be furnishing Bo-
naparte with the means of holding out terms which
we could not accept. He had no idea of the sincerity
of Ministers who had no wish for peace, and all that
could be said would have no impression on them.
Mr. WILBERFORCE said, it was impossible for
Ministers to accept of the mediation of Russia or
Austria, under the circumstances in which they were
offered.
Lord MILTON was surprised at the reason as-
signed by the Hon. Gentleman who spoke last, fur
opposing the motion of his Hon. Friend, namely, that
this was an improper period to bring such a measure
before the House. He must express quite a contrary
opinion. He thought a negotiation ought to be en-
tered into, if practicable, without loss of time ; but
he was sorry to disagree with his 41, 'n. Friend's third
Resolution, as he did not conceive that Resolution
could be of any use. If the conduct of Ministers had
been such as to render it necessary to address his Ma-
jesty to have them removed, he would be one of the
first to come forward in favour of that proposition ;
but he did not conceive their conduct, on this subject
at least, had been such as to render that step ne-
cessary.
Mr. WARD spoke for the motion. He was happy
to find his Honourable Friend had brought this great
and important subject before the House, and said, he
should give it all his support. It was not for him to
decide whether his Majesty's Ministers were for peace
er war ; but he considered the object of peace of such
immediate importance, and, if there was a possi-
bility of procuring it on fair and equitable terms,
and honourable terms, it ought not to be delayed one
single hour. It was not for us to consider whether
we can subsist as well in war as peace; it was neces-
sary, at this'moment, to consider the present state of
our commerce, the dreadful situation in which our
settlements abroad were placed, the grievances of our
people at home, but above all the calamitous situation
in which Ireland is at present involved. He was
sorry to say that if that country was not relieved, and
that speedily, it would be totally ruined, if not lost
to us altogether. If we were to conclude a peace
with France at the present moment, even on terms
not perfectly beneficial to this country, or at least not
so much so as it might be the sanguine wish of his Ma-
jesty's Ministers to procure, still he contended that such
a peace would in the end be amply beneficial. He also
contended, that though this peace were to continue for
seven years, and all the Powers of the Continent were
to combine with the Emperor of the French to raise a
naval force to act against us at the termination of that
.period, we could set them all at defiance. As to con-
tinuing the war with France, what could be gained
by it? The power of the French on the Continent
could not be reduced,and no alliances could be formed
by this country. It was well known what were the
intentions of Bonaparte with respei tto our East-India
settlements. His opinion was, that the French Em-
peror having, with his usual foresight and penetration,
tormed alliances on the most amicable and solid basis
with the Emperors of Russia, Turkey, and Persia,
there must be a great probability of his meeting with
all that success his most sanguine wishes could expect,
as he had absolutely a direct road through their do-
n a ns to Indi . He reminded the House of the state
of our manufactories, the situation of Ireland, and the
great diminution of the commerce of the country, and
asked whether they did not see in these circumstances
the most pressing reasoes to put an end to the war? He
considered this war as one of the most unnecessary and

. - -
........01, I'i.* , • • , ~ . . . ,
Aieolons In its nature that catad iiPoseibly ever ha en-
Linea into die heads of any ket of men to prosecute,and
the Sooner it was put ah end to, the sooner would the
Houserecover the hlcssings of their *fent* creatur-k, •
who were groaning under the burthens &I now hear
in Sutiporting ie. With respect to the people of Ire-
land, it Wis his opinion, were they treated with knord ,
kindness, they would make as goad subjec.i, au& act
as obedient to the Legislature, as the n.itives of Eng 7
land. The two great points of policy_ for this Coml.
try to pursue, were, in his opinion, a peace with France,
and toleration in Ireland. • .-
Mr. ELATCHFORD opposed the resolutions on
the ground that any peace that could be made in the :,
existing circumstances would risk our commercial . --
ascendancy. ' • . '
Mr. JOHN SMITH said, this was the m )st ire-
portant subject agitated in the present Session. Ha'
could not agree with those who opposed the resolu- •
tions, and did the war go on for two years, what would
become of two millions of starving manufacturers ?
Mr. Secretary CANNING replied to the argil-
ments which Mr. Whitbread had urged in support of
his motion. He expressed his readiness to enter at
any time into Negotiations for a Peace, consistent
with the honour and the dignity of the country ; but
he maintained, that until certain information was re-
ceived that the French Government was prepared to
eater into negociations on an equitable basis, it would
be imprudent to attempt any. It was obvious, that if
any Negotiation, which might be undertaken, should
fail, Peace would be placed at a still greater distance,
and the sufferings of the people, which have been so
much exaggerated, instead of being diminished, would
be augmented. He could not help making a few ob-
servations on the subject of the Austrian-offer of me-
diation. The first offer of mediation on the part of
Austria might have been worthy of attention, if the
fortune of Bonaparte had no: taken a different turn.
Austria fell under the controul of France ; and no
security existed in ne"otiation.b, The last offer of me-
diation proved palpably fallacious, and both attempts
exploded together. It was the intention of the British
Government to enter into negociations for peace, but
in the official Notes which had passed through the
hands of Count Stahremb2rg, the Austrian Minister,
an ambiguous style was conspicuous, evidently the
effect of design. In 'one of the Notes the words—
“at war with England,'' were inserted, instead of,
at war against England. The former conveyed a
different meaning from the sense required, and ad-
mitted of several constructions. A second Note was
sent, with a most singular omission in grammar.—
A request was made that the omission might be
filled up, but the omission still existed, and it was evi-
dent that these errors were intentional. After the
Nth of June, 1807, Austria was no longer an in-
dependent Power. She was so completely influ. •
enced by the Minister of France, that her Prince had
no choice but to aid the views f France. The Ho-
nourable Member who had alluded to the subject
of these offers of mediation, would find no instance
where a neutral, under the influence of a .superior
i power, had been accepted as a mediator. We were
called upon to accept an unaccredited assent in the
person of the Austrian Minister. There was no basis
established for negociation which constituted secu-
rity.. In the year 1805, Austria offered her mediation
to France, who said, shew me a basis. She afterwards
offered to mediate for Russia, who also required a ba-
sis. If these powers considered it necessary to make
such demands of Austria, this country was right in
demanding strictly the basis of negociation before we
accepted that offer of mediation. With respect to
Austria, it was well known that this country had pre-
ferred her friendship, and offered her every indul-
gence, while she remained in the interest of Great
Britain ; but when she became under the controul of
France, it was not our interest to trust her. Was it
not well known two years since, that the British flag
was expelled from the ports of Austria ? England had
not retaliated, under a belief that Austria was' under
the direction of France. He stated these facts to
prove, that a mistrust was properly entertained to-
wards Austria. Ministers had determined not to en-
ter upon negociation, unless it was upon a footing that
was likely to insure a successful issue. It had been said,
that the enmity of France was directed against this
country, in consequence of the offers made for peace
having been rejected during former Administrations.
He would ask, if it was from that the present Ministers
should be responsible for the conduct of others, with
whom they had no concern? This argument applied
to the conduct of the Hon. Gentleman's friends, who
composed the late Administration, and who broke off
the late negociation. It was true the Honourable
Gentleman had disagreed with them also on that
point; he therefore could not deny him the merit of
having acted with consistency.
Mr. HERBETT, who had seconded Mr. Whit.
bread's Motion, rose to speak.—( A loud cry of Ques.
tion ! Question ! Spoken ! Spoken !)
The SPEAKER observed, that the Honourable
Gentleman had already spoken. It was true that the
Honourable Member had only said a few words
seconding the Motion ; but as the point of order
seemed to be insisted on by the House, he was bound
to declare that the Honourable Gentleman could not

speak again.
Mr. W. SMITH thought the two first resolutions
involved in so much difficulty, that he could not vote
for them ; but if the third resolution was to be brought
to a division, it should have his vote. He conceived
that Ministers by their own spewing gave very little
hopes of peace. He thought that it would be acting
more consistently with the Wonour, the interest, and
the dignity of the Country, to enter into negociatio,
now than at any future period.
Mr SHERIDAN did not agree with his Honou-
rable Friend who had just sat down. He would vote
for all the three positions. It was not surprising that
some Gentlemen should have regretted, that those
who usually acted together should have come into
the field less completely drilled than the troops on tke
other side, since they proposed to vote on grounds so
inconsistent. He contended, that Ministers had
shewn an aversion to peace in two instances, and
that they ought not to be trusted to reject a third
offer. He was sorry to hear a great deal stated re.
specting commercial distress, from a very respectable
quarter ; but he was certain that the picture which
hid been drawn was greatly overcharged. He knew
there was no such distress in the country ; and if it
did exist, he never would avow it : for to held such a
language was to capitulate at once. It had been said,
to vote the third resolution would be to encourage

p• • •