The Sun.
London, England, 1818-03-04 00:00:00

SION ACTS.

The Ball -Ot CARNARVON (understanding the
motion would not be opposed), moved an humble
Address to the Prince Regent, praying his, Royal
Highness would be graciously pleaded to order a
Return to he laid before ti:e Huse Of. all persons
who had been arrested and de,ained on charges of
being concerned in riotous andlumultuous assem-
blages, or whose papers had been seized, or their
houses searched, in consequence or Such charges ;
together With copies of the authorities under
which such acts had been done, and the dates of
the discharge of such persons.
Lord Viscount StOmcitYrn expressed his readiness
to furnish every information that be could, consist-
ently with his duty; with respect to a part of the
morioo:beditinot believe there was any information

hLs office, but all that he could procure upon
,be subject shouild'be afforded.
The motion was agreed to.
INDEMNI .Y BILL.
_

Lord HOLLAND, previous to their Lordships'
resolving into a Committee on the Bill, spoke at
some length on the subject, and in reference
chiefly to the statements in the preamble of
Bill, thought some explanation \vas necessary, as
in his then view of the-subject, he deemed some
of the enactments. nut only various hut contra-
dictory. There were some considerations which
_ _

forcibly struck him in the way of query, and of
which he wished for a solution. The principal
of these seemed to. be, whether an individual who
bad been arrested and detailed, and subsequently
discharged in 'the way that several of these re-
cently had been, was recently -exempted thereby
from future prosecution, or was pldced in the full
enjoyment of all his legal right as a British sub-
ject in consequence of such discharge.
The LOAD CHANCELLOR, in consequence of
what had fallen from the Noble Lord, entered
into a legal view of the points adverted to at
some length. lle argued most ably for the ne-
cessity, .on the special and extraordinary circum-
stances of the case, of protecting the Magistrates
and nll those who bad necessarily acted limier the
authority which recently existed for the safety of
the State ; and above all, that the sources of
their information should not be disclosed. XVitli
respect to the doubts entertained, he seemed of
opinion, that the proceedings which took place
ra the Court of King's Bench went on those juri-
dical principles on which all cases of the kind pro-
ceeded; and if the Judges of that Court, on those
6.:easions, had acted illegally, all those who pre-
them had so acted. This was the best opi-
Ilion he could at that time give upon his view of
what was referred to, and he should he ready to
give any further information in his power respec-
ting the puinis.
Their Lordships then resolved into the Com-
mittee, the Earl of SHAFTESBURY in the Chair.

In the course of conversation, Lord GRENVILLP.
gavebis opinion that there was no necessity for
&parting from the ordinary course Of proceeding
in this case. In the result the preamble was
postponed.
The clauses being entered upon, the Earl of
LAUDERDALE 4 proposed as an Amendment, that
the words " ISt day of January," the time fixed
fur the operation of the Act to commence, should
be left out, in order to insert the words " 4th day
of March:" This proposition gave rise to sonic
discu,sion.

The .Earl of LIVERPOOL contended for the pro-
priety of the Bilk having a retrospective effect;
but eventually would not . object tti the dates be-
ing altered to the 26th of January, the day pre-
vious to the meeting of Parliament.
In the course of the further discussion,.•
Lord HOLLAND declared his intention to move
a ploviso, founded on his legal \:iew oldie case,
as stated by him before their Lordships' entered
into the Cominittee, the object of which should
be, that persons d'schargA as they had been
.during the continuance of the recent 'Suspension,
should he fully entitled to all the benefits of a
legal 'discharge, notwithstanding whatever in-
technicality there may have been in suet) pro-
cedure;

A discussion of some length ensued on what
had tall,ql from the Noble Lord, in the course of
which Lord ERSKINE declared his opinion that
some: proviso of the kind would be proper.
The LORD CHANCELLOR and the Earl of LIVER-
POOL most ably and at considerable length an-
swered the various objections which were urged
by the opposing Peers against the measure, chiefly
on those grounds and principles on which their
former speeches, in justification of the measure,
were founded.

Lord ERSKINE proposed the introduction of a
proviso, tending to exclude trout the general in-
demnity such persons as had acted, in the execu-
tion of their functions, '' maliciously, or without
just cause."
The LORD CHANCELLOR contended strenuously
against the adoption of such a proviso, as mili-
tating against the principle, and tending to de-
feat the main object of the measure.
In. the course of the discussion which followed,
Lord ERSKINE's Proviso was negatived, as were
several others moved by the Earl of .LAUDERDALB
and other Peers.

Lord HOLLAND moved the Proviso of which
he hail notified his intention early in the evening,
and which was also negatived.
An Amendment proposed by the LORD CHAN-
cELLoitto the Preamble, to the effect of strength-
enint; and rendering more clear the principle of
the Bill, was agreed to by the Committee.
The House then resuming, the Report was or-
dered to be received to-morrow ; sod Thursday
was mentioned as the intended day for tile third

. .
reading of the Bill. After which their Lordships
ajourned.

HOUSn OF COMMONS.

• A person. from the British MuScum presented
certain AccOunts rel:-Itive to the Books received
last year front Stationers' Hall, which was .
or-
dered to be printed.

' POORS' RATES.
MI% LUSHINGTON having presented a variety of
papers relative to the Poors'llates, being chiefly,
a►s was understood, the Returns 'orSums collected

for this purpose in different Districts,
Mr. D. GILBERT, on moving that these Papers
he printed, expressed his opinion that unless the
evil of regulations that now existed were done
away, or brought at least within some limits, it
could not tail to he the ruin of the country. The
Committee, however, which had sat last• Session,
had been so indefatigable lit their labours, that he
trusted the subject they had investit►ated would
meet the deepest attention, and the result lee ge-
nerally satisfactory.
Sir C MoocK was certaiu the country would
not be satisfied ituless his Majesty's Government
came forward,
,and fairly and radically removed
the evil.

Mr. CALCRAFT (lid not wish to deny that tl►e
Poor's Rates were an evil ; but 'he did not see
how it was in the power of I►is Majesty's Govern-
ment to remove it. If the Hon. Gentleman was
sincere in his wish, and he had no reason to
doubt his sincerity, let him bring in a Bill to re-
medy the evil, that it might be seen what means
he would propose. But the fact was, that the
real evil of pauperism, and consequent poor's rates,
arose chiefly from excessive taxation. These
rates had reached their highest point, and were-
now gradually declining, so that we should soon
have'no occasion to alter a system that had been
established for ages, and been productive of so
much _benefit., But Gentlemen might in a great
degree thank themselves for the height which the
evil bad attained. They would have a Corn Bill,
and Country Bank Paper, and yet they wanted a
low price of labour and moderate poor rates. The
things- were inconsistent ; for if they will have a.
high price for corn, there must be high poor
rates, as the wages of labour-were not sufficient
for the support of human existence, and both la-
bourers and their-tamilies•Must eat. He cared not,
however, of what pl'ice corn was, so that proper
support could be found for the labourer. But he
would be one of those who would never set his
face against the Act of Elizabeth.
Sir-C. Moticx wished it t'o'be understood that

was against the abuse of the Poor Laws that

he had spoken, and not aga►nst any part of the
Act which provides support for the aged and

Mr. F. LEWIS hoped that 'on so important a
subject there would not 'he a premature discus-
sion,.or any thing said that might be misunder-
stood and create alarm. Ton much praise could
not be given to the labours of, the Committee ;
but-he was afraid they would incur the imputation
of blame for over caution, though he would rather
they should be blamed for this than for precipita-
tion. He hoped the House would set themselves
against the system with all its abuses, but not let
it be entertained that the relief at present afforded
was intended to be withdrawn. It was impossible,
he thought, that any person could entertain such
au idea. He would say there was impending
danger to the country from the gradual increase
in the number of paupers, who would sooner or

later absorb all the profits of the land, and there-
fore he hoped the Holise would preserve the coot -
try froni ruin as es-the
.paupers themselves.
He trusted
,the subject would be brought gre►-
du before the House, and undergo full and
complete discussion ; but he would say that this
country would hav!.l.been inconparably happier if
the Act of Elizabeth had never passed, and the
labouring classes in particular would have been
much better off. There was nothing he was less
anxions•to see than high price of land and low
price of. labour, but if there was any thing that
he was most anxious to see removed, it was low
wages, wlfich obliged the labouring classes to
throw themselves on the Poor Laws. This was
caused by the detestable system of paying la-
bourers out of the Poor's Rates. The farmers
paid them sixpence a day, and made them take to
the amount of eighteen or nineteen shill.ags
week from the palish. There was besides a moat
injurious- system of Manufachifing goods, o
be sent\ahroad for sale, at prices Wow what
they could even be male -for, becanse patt
of the cost was .paid by the land, in the.shape
_of
Poiir Rates, while the land reaped no benefit from
the traffic. He entreated the House not to be
led away by the view that taxation was the cause
of the numb( rof paupers and high rates. Nothing,
was-more fallacious than that taxation had effect-
ed the amottot of paupers, or the sums raised for
their support. He denied the assertion altoge-
ther. What was urged was, that persons were to
impoverished-by taxation, that they were unable
to pay a fair price for labour. But taxation only
altered the channel of expenditure. If the per-
sons who paid taxes had the money to spend, in-
stead of distributing it through the hands of Go-
vernment, there-would be even a greater number
of paupers titan there are. At present the Mo-
ney raised by taxes went to employ snldiers and
sailors, anti to pay for the making of powder, the
building and repairing of ships, and ail the various
articles of national stores. Thus it must be seen
that Government, by means of taxation, became
notch greater employers of labour than it taxation
(lid not exist. Even persons who lived by the in-
terest of money in the Stocks, employed more
hands than it they derived their income by less di-
rect and certain means. When the distress .of
the country had been so much discussed, it was
urged that the principal cause of it was, that Go-
vernment had withdrawn itself front the market.
,And how could Government employ 'labour at
all, either in peace or war, but for taxation ? He
did not mean to say that a great deal of money
had not been squandered away ; but this was a
minor point, and the fact was, that taxation only
tended to change the hands through which the
money passed, instead of checking or diminishing
the quantity of labonr.
Mr..fittonottaat regretted that the lion. Gen-•
tleman had not kept his promise at not entering
prematurely into a discussion .of this important
subject. He had thought fit to enter into the
topic till he had exhausted it; as far-perhaps as
reiated to all he had to say upon it ; and then he
branched out into the benefits of taxation. On
this point he had favoured the House with the
discovery, that taxation, however far carried,
had no effect in inCreasing the number of paupers ;
that where a person paid 1,0001. a-year, it made
no difference whether that 1,0001. were taken to
give to a sinecure
.Lord of the Admiralty, or laid
out in the employment of a number of artisans.
He pledged himself against all and every part of
such opinions and he would further pledge him-
self to show that there never was any proposition
more fallacious, or thore dangerous if believed ;
and that this falsehood was as demonstrable as the -
selfevident nature of the last discovery. . .
Mr. F. LEWIS explained. , It did not appear.to
be a self-evident proposition, that the number of*
paupers was •occasioned by taxation alone.
Mr. Baouottam replied, that he had not heard
such en opinion had ever been entertained.
Mr. CaLcaxPT denied that he had ever meant
to say that the ()amber of panpera was occasioned
by taxation, but only that this was a principal in-
gredient tonards it.

Mr. CURWEN said, the great object was, to alter
the mode of receiving the rates, without which
we never could restore the poor to their former
independence. There was not a labourer in the
country who did not pay a 25th part of his wages
for salt alone. _

T►he papers were ordered to be printed.
Mr. H. SUMNER presented a petition front the Bakers'
Company, the precise nature of which could not be heard;
but it was understood to pray for an alteration of the Act of
the third of his preieut Majesty, respecting the weighing of
bread —Read, and ordered to lie on the table.

Several petitions were presented from different borlies
of Tannert, praying for a repeal of the New Duty on
Leat her.

Mr. W. DOUGLAS put off the notice of his Motion, which
stood for to-morrow, till Wednesday week.

PEI ITIONS.

Sir M. AV. RIDLEY presented. a Petition from certain in-
habitants of the town of Newcastle-upon-Tyne, praying.
for a Reform in Parliament, and that no Indemnity Bill might
pass.
Mr. LAM BTON• took this opportunity to say, that he
should oppose this Bill in every stage.
The Petition was orderea to lie on the table,
Mr. MANNING presented a Petition, praying, as was under-
stood, amendment in the London Docks Bill.--Ordered to
lie on the table.

• Mi. CtENFELL, on behalf of an Hon. Friend (ve believe
Sir .1. Mackintosh) who not able to attend, postponed his
motion, which stood tor this day, till this day fortnight.
The Bank Tokan.Penalty Suspensioa Rill was read a first
and second time. .