The Sun.
London, England, 1829-03-11 00:00:00

CATHOLIC CLERGY.

The Earl of WINCHILSEA said, it was not his inten-
tion to trespass long on the time of the House, in moving
for the return of which be had given notice. In looki4
over the Journals of the House, be found that returns
of a similar description, but much more extensive as to
the number, hail been moved for in the years 1767 anal
1780, since wh:ch period no Parliamentary return (with
the exception of a return made to the Committee ap-
pointed to inquire into the state of Irel and, of the
religious establishments of the Roman Church) had
bred made of the numbeteof the population, of the clergy,
and of the religious establishments of the Raman Church
within this empire.. It was to the two latter classes he
wished the return he should move far to be confined. The
ignotauce in which tile Noble Duke at the head of his
Majesty's Government thought proper to keep the rept e-
sentatives of the people and the hereditary counsellors of
the Crown, as to the provisions of the Bill intended to be
introduixd for the removal of the disabilities affecting his
M.jesty's Romin Catholic subjects, Mole it a matter of
mere conjecture, at the time he gave notiee of the motion
which he now rose to move, what the enactments of the
Bill might be. He hail two reasons for moving for then
returns—first, that the nation might know to what extent
the power of the establishments of that intriguing and am-
bithaus body of men had increased within the last two
years in this country. The power of that set of men,
who had been benished from every ether state in Europe,
had increased considerably within the last two years, and he
believed that he should be borne out when he stated that
one of their chief establishments had, not only in build-
ings, but that money to a great amount had been laid out
in the purchase of property in the immediate neighbour-
hood. The great majority of the three adjoining parishes
hail, he believed, been made proselytes to the opinion of
that [scaly. (Heer. ) The second reason for his moving fur
the return was this,—he believed it impossible, if the pro-
posed Bill should pass both Houses of Parliament, that
the Roman Catholics could remain in the same situation as
respected the established church as that in which they at
present stood. If, therefore, it was contemplated to make
in the proposed Bill, or in any subsequent Bill, any provi-
sion fur the Roman Catholic clergy, lie thought it ad-
visable that the peojs!e should know to what extent they
were Heel), to he taxed, in support of a church which they
hod decl !red to he superstitious and idolatrous. The pro-
visions of the Bill for the removal of the disabilities affecting
the Roman Catholics wet e now before the country,--it Bill
which the Noble Duke at the head of his Olejesty's Go •
vernment stated that, when known, would give satisfaction
to the great body of Protestants. afford strength and secu-
rity to the Protestant institutions of the country, and tend
to weaken the power of the Roman church in this empire.
It was not his intention at present to enter into any diS-
ewmion with respect to those enactments which the Nol,le
Duke proposes should stand in the place of those long-
Isnown and well-tried safeguards of the Constitution, be-
cause he should have an opportunity of entering into that
discussion when the Bill came before the Honer. But be
feat confident, that when such opportunity was afforded
him, he should be able clearly to prove, to the satisfaction
of the nation, that a' statement so fallacious in all its
hearings never before fell from the mouth of any states-
man. lie had now offered to the House the few °beer.-
iaatinne which I.e had to make in support of his no-
tion. Perbeps it mieht—be- urge: that the character.
principles, and views of modern Romanians differed
very considerably from those by which it was anciently
guided ; that though the power of Rannanism had in-
creased of late years in this country, yet such a return as
he had moved for was unnecessary, because no danger was
to he feared from the extension of the principles of the
Remen church. To meet such an argument, if it should
be adveneed, he would take the liberty- of quoting the
opinions, not of a Protestant, but of a Roman Catholic
writer. The writer he alluded to was an Italian gentleman ;
and though friendly to emancipation, he had shown that
those doctrines of the church of Rome which were thought
oloolete by some, were still in existence, and he pointed
out the danger and difficulty attending the conceding the
Bottum Catholic claims in the present state of religion in
this country, and mentioned the security which he, a Ro-
man Catholic, thought should necessarily accompany soy
measure of emancipation.—(The Noble Earl here read a
long extract from a work entitled " Catholicism in
Austria," in which the writer contended that any measure
liar emancipation ought to be gradual in its effects, and
that part of its provisions ought to be the banishment of
the Jesuits from the country. The writer also maintained
that the church of Rome still firmly retained her oldest
doctrines, and that all her actions were directed to
the purpose of re-estaltlishing herself in the posses:
otioe of that power which site hail lost.)—The Noble
Earl then stated that it was his firm and heartfelt
convictiote that if their Lordships were to retrace the
pages of the history of this country, even in the most
despotic timee, they wouhl find that the conduct
which the Noble Duke at the heed of his Majesty'',
Government hail thought proper to pursue on a
iittestion which all admitted was to effect a change in the
Constitution of the country, was more at bittary and more
dictatorial than any act of any format' Minister. (Hear.)
What were the words of hie Majesty's gracious speech at
the commencement of the Session? His [Majesty gre-
ciouely recommended Parliament to take into its deliberate
consideration the whole condition of Ireland,. and that it
shtmld review the laws which impose civil disabilities on
his Majesty's Roman Catholic subjects. " You will con.
eider," the speech continued, " whether the removal of
these disabilities can he effected consistently with the full
and permanent security of our establishment in Church
and State, and with the maintenance of the reformed re-
ligion, established by law, and of the rights and privilege*
of the...Bit:boos anal of tine Clergy of this realm, anal of the
Churches committed- to thel charge." He would ark .tife
House in what way the Noble Duke had allowed him
and the rem tinder of their Lordships an opportunity
ton bring their united judgment to the consideration of the
extent to which these disabilities ought to be removed.—
( Ilear.)—As soon as the Noble Duke, and the other Mi-
nisters of the Crown, had taken them into consideraticn,
and come to the cum:ln-ion of their inefficacy and inutility,
they came down to Parliament with a Bill for their re-
moval. He could only say, that whatever line of conduct
the Noble Duke might pursue, if he thought that this
measure was to be carried either by secrecy, or be might say
by stratreera--if he thought to carry those principles, by
which he had excelled in diet profession, in woich he
had reaped the highest honour, into his political character,
anal on a question respecting which the constitutional voice
of the country had a 'Oat to be heard, he would find
that resistance, with which lie must ever expect to meet,
Irma a high-minded people, who valued their liberty more
than their existence.— (Hear. )—Having said thus much,
he wished to make a few observations then, as another•op-
portunity might not occur for some time. A Noble Earl
(Grey) had asked him on a former evening some guess
tione, to, which he begged to be allowed to reply. The
Noble Earl bad asked him what opinions .he entertained
with respect to Parliamentary Reform ?—what he would
do if the present Administration were dissolved ?show he
vrou'd forma new one? and how he would tranquillize
Ate' country if the Parliament were dissolved With re-
spect to, Parliamentary Reform, whatever doubts he might
once have entertained upon that question, he confessed
that late events had completely removed them. That
Noble Earl would stand a bright—he had almost said (but
God forbid he should say se)—a solitary—example in the
pages of history, of honour, of probity, and of consistency,
amidst the turpitude and inconsistency which had so long
tarnished the character of so many of our politicians.__
Gild grant that he might humbly follow the Noble Earl in
this course of honourable consistency; and he now told
that Noble Earl, that whenever he brought forward a
measure for Parliamentary Reform, he should have his
most cordial .and -hearty support. long as the repre_

• •
irritation of the country was in the hands of honourahle and
independent men, in his opinion, no evil could be antici-
pated, but embervend 3. but when hesaw what had been the
coirloct of those who were possessed of close boroughs, when

they inightbe able to patch up fortunes which had been
broken and ruined by their vices—he had no hesitation in
saying " let honest people have the representation which
these have so grossly abused." With respect to the Fecund
question, it implied a doubt whether, if the present aihnini-
stration were to retire, a new one could be formed of per-
sons who would advocate the principles which he and
others, in unison with the great body of the nation, atfro_
rated. It must be thought that the party to which he
had the honour to belong had fallen low indeed in charac-
ter, in honesty, and in talent, if it were supposed that the
places of the present Administration could not be supplied.
Ile was far from supposing any thing of the sort. When
knowledge had spread so far as it hid in these days, and
when all knowledge was not confined to the hive of
Popery, or to the countenance of infidelity, he saw no
difficulty in meeting with persons who bad sufficient ac-
quirement to conduct the business of the State without
striking, as the proposed measures did strike, at the funda •
mental articles of the anion of the United Kingdom. He
did maintain, that if his most gracious Majesty would be
pleased to throw himself upon the good feelings and the
good sense of his people, a sufficient number-of men of
talent, of character, and of honesty—fur extraordinary eir-
catnstances hid ever produced extraordinary men, and so
would these—would be found who would prove the pre-
s.irvers of their country. If an appeal were made
to the people, such a return woulJ be made as
would hinny that theme were men who would
persevere, in spite of intimidation, in perform-
ing their duty to their God, to their King, and to their
country ; and if such an adm;nistration as that which he
had described were to be formed, they would neither be
afraid to appeal to the people, nor to take such measures as
would controul spiritual despotism in Ireland, and restore
to it religious liberty, upon which, and upon which alone,
civil liberty must depend.--,-(llear, hear.)—.-Many other
measures doubtless might be brought forward fur the bene-
fit of Ireland. Among t,thers, he weuld have it made com-
pulsory upon land-owners in that ccurvry to 'leave behind
them, when they quitted it, a part of the property derived
from the sail ; and he was sure that that portion would be
amply repaid, in the heartfelt gratification which must re-
sult from the consciousness of having contributed to the
h ippiness of a needy and miss' able people. At all event'',
woal have their property made answerable for the acts
of violence which were committed in many parts of the
kingdom. He would merely say, in conclusion, that he
hoped their Lordships would allow him to move " That
an humble address lie presented to his Majesty, requesting
that he would be graciously pleased to order, that there be
laid on the table of the House an account of tint numbers
of all the Roman Catholic Clergy in Great Britain and Ire-
Zero!, distinguishing parochial clergy, titular bishops, &e. ;
also an account of the number of all religious houses and
seminaries under the conttoul of the Jesuits and other
orders, specifying the names of such orders."

The Duke of WELLINGTON, who once
„it-4o the
House' sometime after the businees, had commenced,
and evidently laboured under a severe Cold, rose and said
—My' Lords, it is not my intention to make any objection
to the production of arty documents which. can elucidate
the points to which the Noble Lord has called your
Lordship' attention.—(Hear, hear.)—But • I ntUst ob-
serve, that if the Noble Lord supposes' the Govern-
ment can give him any information upon the: subjects
to which his motion relates, he cannot have looked very
deeply into the Acts of Parliament which relate to those
matters, either as they refer to this country. or to
Ireland.—(l tear, hear. )—ln fact, from Ireland. there
can he no return. If he will only look 'into the Acts of
Parliament he will see that the Government can have no
return of the Roman Catholic Clergy of any description
If the Noble Lord will take the trouble of looking into the
Acts he will find that though the Act of 1791 required
the Clergy to register their names with the Governtnent,•
yet there is nothing to show the numbers of those who may
have been registered, who are now liritigeir who may be
dead, or who may not have been registered at all.—
Ueder these circumstances, though by looking through a
variety of docurnents and repotts, and referring to e variety
of transactions with belied, -we - may he able. to pro-
cure soma information; yet it is positively- certein
that we cannot make any returns such
.as the Noble Lend:
has moved for; yet every thing that can be done to.ass:st
him, I can most positively assure your Lordships shall be
done, thoueli I cannot answer for the arcutecy of the re-
turns, nor thetitmeetvehich they tart be pesoliieed.': }laving
tail thus much respecting the immediateruhject of the Noble
Lord's motion, I might, perhaps, sit down without
making. another observation. Your Lordships .will not
expect me now, in answer to what the Noble Lead
has stated respecting the Bills pro need by my Right
honourable Friend in the other Bose, to enter into a
discussion upon them.—(Hear.)—My Lore's I retain
the opinion, and I again re-assert the opinion which I stated
respecting the Bills, when I had occasion to nvlvert to them
Irene few nights ago. The Noble Lord says my statement
was a fallacious statement. My Lords, I will. support that
statement against the Noble Lord, or against the etate:
anent of any body else, whenever those Bills come under
the consideration of this House.—(Continued cheers.)—
In the meantime, I think myself excused from entering
further into the subject et present, or from following
the Noble Lord through the extracts lie has read from a
book entitled " Catholicism in Austria," and lately pub-
lished in this country, which, in some respects, is a valuable
honk, but which has nothing to do with this question—in-
deed the author, in the only question which relates to
this question, has shown himself entirely ignorant of
the basis on which it rests •in this country. Well then
the Noble Lord has loon pleased to refer to me,, and to
say that I hive conducted myself in an arbitrary mane
ner :in respect to this question: My Lords, I htlieve.
I have done my duty as his Majesty's servant in concert
with my noble colleagues. Having considered it for the intee
met of this country, that this question should be considered,
and decided upon in this Session of Parliament, I advised his
Majesty to state what was stated in hie Speech on the first
day of the Session. I afterwards, in conjunction with. my
Noble Colleagues, and my Right lion. 'Friends in the
other House, advised his Majesty to have those Bills sub-
mitted to Parliament, and with his Majesty's sanction
and with his Majesty's support, (cries of hear, hear, hear,)
and with his Majesty's support I have brought these
measures forward. My Lords, I say, in doing that
I have done that which became me as a Minister of this
country—(hear, hear, bear),—and my celleaguee; in
joining me, have likewise •done :that which became
them in their duty as the Ministers of thie country. I
did not go into a Committee of Parliament in order to
seek for the sanction of the Committee with a view nebring
forward these measures.—No! I come forward with
them upon my own responsibility, and these measures in
my opinion will tend to the benefit, to the happiness,
arid to the tranquillity cf the country.—(Cbeere,)—
The Noble Lord, following the example of a NAN Duke,
has said; that I am going to introduce Popery and
arbitrary power into this country'--I- deny the
fact.—(Great cheering.)—l say let the measures
be viewed on their own grounds. I say the religion -
this country will not be changed one iota,- hut on the
ee.trary, that the measures of that Act will
_par-
ticularly tend to strengthen tt.e Protestant Constitillion,
and will tend to remedy some of the very defects which the
Noble Lord himself has pointed out ': the course of
the epeech which lie has made to the House.—(Cheers.)—
It is not necessary that I should follow him into the last
part of what he has been pleased to state respecting a new.
Administration. In announcing this Administration to
your Lordships, he has I.rought forward two intentions,
which will appear no doubt to be highly plaueible
to the present Parliament,—one is the Dissolution
of Parliament,—and the other, the Reform of Parliito
meat. Now, I beg to inform him that I heartily wish he
may carry those intentions into execution if he robs ulde
happen to be my successor—(Laughter)—but I Call tell.
him I have no intention to untlert Ike either the one or the
ether, as my intention is to persevere in the measures to
which I am already a party, not entertaining even
the slightest doubt that by tad) perseverance, and
with your LorcW.ips' support, I shall be able to carry. them
to a final and happy end.—[The Noble Duke sat down
amidst tremendous cheers from all parts of the House, which
wee much crowded. A great numberof Commoners stood
before the throne, and seemed to he highly delighted with
the energy, spirit, and' high independence of the Noble
Premier's speech. In fact, the whole House appeared quite
electrified, as the reply of his Grace was undoubtedly as
unexpected as it was magnanimous, - and becoming
his decided character. The Earl of Winchiitea looked
round in astonishment, while the Duke of Sussex-was con-
vulsed with laughter.]
Earl FITZWILLIAM presented a petition from the
county of York, in favour of emancipation.
Lord SUFFIELD presented a petition from a place in
Somersetshire, signed by 364 of the respectable yeomanry
of the place.
Lord BEXLEY presented two petitions against the
Catholic Claims.
Lord KING presented petitions in favour of the Catholic
Claims from Cievelaud, Yorkshire, and front Loughbo-
rough, Leicestershire. Also five petitions from Ireland,
praying for the repeal of the Sub-letting Act.
The Earl of VERULAM presented two petitions .against
the Catholic Claims.
The Earl of CLARE presented six petitions in faticur of
•the Catholic Claim's from the :Counties of Claree-Litneriek,-
! acd. Cork.
TIE. V_Erl pr.nnist nrsamented a netition from

ham against the Catholic Claims. It was signed by
36000 persons, and to above 20,000 of the signatures the
places of residence were added to the names. He thought
it necessary to state that the petition was voted at a meeting
which was composed exclusively•Of persons opposed to the
Catholic claimtn-,..:The petition, however, was chore nume-
rously signed :him that-which was about to, be presented
from the same place.
Lord CALTHORPE did not deny the great respects-
-hility of many of the petitioners, nor did he deny that they
were more numerous than those whose petition he should
have the honour to present. This, however, was a sub-
ject urn which at least some historical and more political
information was necessary, in order to form a correct judg-
ment ; and he was sure, therefore, inasmuch as the higher
classes were more likely to possess such information than
the lower classes were, that their Lordships would rather
look to respectability than numbers. lie had now to pre-
sent a petition which bore the signatures of individuals,
whose opinions on any subject were entitled to the respect
and consideration of their Lordships. It was signed by a
great many Magistrates, by six Clergymen, by thirteen
bankers, by seven Dissenting Ministers, by sixteen medical
gentlemen, including five physicians, by twenty-one bar-
risters and ;comities, a,.d by a great number of the most
respectable merchants and inhabitants of Birmingham. As
to inviting the co-operation 61 those youthful statesmen
which were to be brood. in 'wish numbers in the charity
schools of the.countey, the petitioners had neglected to do
so—not because there were no charily sehoohaat Biratine-
ham, but because they thought the respectability of their
petition would not be advanced by obtaining the signatures
of those who, if they (swirl form any opinion upon the
subject, must he looked upon as illustratiue rather of the
race than of the march of intellect.—(Hear, and a laugh.)
—ln such a town as Birmingham, when the public mind
and feeling were highly excited, their Lordships ought to.
exercise a very rigid :scrutiny as to the persons by whom
petitions Coining - front the place were signed. He could
not but persuade himsellthat the time, ere long, would, ar-
rive, when those who really and anximisly•desired to up-
hold the Church of England, would see that Ministers, in
taking the view which they had dune of this question, had
pursued the course best calculated to sustain the interests
of the Established Church. Liy confounding religious te-
, nets with that which rendered the Catholic religion atone

time incompatible with civil freedom—two things which
were very different—by mixing these together great ob-
scurity had been cast over this question. But he believed,
that ere long those who were now of a very contrary opi-
nion, would see Iliat the Noble Duke war fully justified in
saying that he considered this to be a treasure for the sup-
port of the Church- of England..(Hear, bear.)—It was,
therefore, with cordial satisfaction that he hailed this