The Sun.
London, England, 1845-06-05 00:00:00

and he thoseht that that was the best way of bringing the
people of that country back to a sense of their duty as members
of an em *e of which they formed a part. Nothing for this
wield be Lkted except by conciliation, and he should, there-
fore, vote for the Bill as part of a great experiment for giving
contentment to the people of Ireland, without any danger to the
establithed i‘.slitutions of the country.
The Earl of HARDWICKE said thathe wished to explain
himself on a point to his Noble Friend who had just sat down,
which seemed to give him much anxiety. The supposition
which the Noble Duke entertained that he wished to appro-
priate the revenues of the Irish Church to the support of the
Roman Catholic clergy was erroneous. What he had said was,
that if the Roman Catholic Church was to be endowed he did
not know where the endowment was to come from, as it could
not come out of the Consolidated Fund. He had further as-
serted, that if there was, as was asserted, a church without a
congregation, without a soul to go into it, nor any probability
of there being any, that the endowment of that church might,
with safety and wisdom, be taken from the Protestant Church,
and applied to the support of the ministers of the Roman Ca-
tholic faith. He had yet another point to touch upon, and in
that case he should give a very short answer to a very long re-
mark. For his opinions he was solely and entirely responsible.
That was the answer to his Noble Friend.
Earl SPENCER said he wished to say a few words on this
question, not because he could so far flatter himself that any
thing which fell from him was at all likely to influence their
Lordships, or that he could adduce anything new upon the
subject on this the third night of the debate, which he trusted
would be the last.—( Hear, hear.) He thought that her Ma-
jesty's Government was entitled tohigh credit for the line they
had taken, and he thought that those who had takes any part
in the promotion of this measure, as was the case with the
friends with whom he had acted all the days of his Me, should
share hi the obloquy and clamour which had been raised
throughout the country. With respect to the speech of the
Noble Duke, in which he made an attack on the Noble Earl op-
posite, he might remind the House that the very same impute-
tionshad been thrown out on the passing of the Catholic Eman-
cipation Bill ; and with regard to this being an isolated
measure he thought that it was one of the very best features of
the measure that it was not an isolated Bill, but was the pre-
cursor of other measures which would be of essential service
to the country. On principle he was sincerely attached to a
Church establishment. He thought that it was one of the
highest duties of the State to provide for the temporal and
spiritual interests of the people, but it was a still higher duty to
provide for the spiritual interests of those under their care,
and for this reason he should always support the Church
establishment of the country. The Right Rev. Prelates who
spoke against the Bill gave no reason for their opposition to it,
but those Prelates who came from Ireland did give a reason.
They stated that the Church of Rome was an antagonist
Church, and yet the laity of our own Church and the clergy
also, but certainly a great majority of the clergy, believed
that there was some secret value in their ordi-
nation, some peculiar value in the authority which they
derived from their apostolic succession, and yet this virtue was
derived through the Roman Catholic clergy, in some of the
worst and most corrupted ages of that church. There was, it
was true, some difference of opinion between the two churches.
But was the Reman Catholic church to be called an antago-
nist church? He was personally opposed to that church, be-
cause he believed that nothing ought to be held as true which
could not be proved by, or inferred from, the Holy Scriptures,
and the P.oman Catholic church derived part of her faith from
other sources. But they believed in the same Saviour—they
inculcated the same morality, and were equally energetic and
successful with any Protestant in giving religious instruction
to the whole of the people. He did not see anything, then, to
prevent him from giving his assent to this Bill; and the more
so, as there was in the Catholic faith nothing that was con-
trary to religion. And if the objectors to the measure would
only look around they would see that, as the Noble Earl had
stared, there was no country in Europe in which the Roman
Catholic subjects, whether they lived under Protestant or
Roman Catholic sovereigns, were not loyal and orderly in their
deportment. But it had been said that the doctrines of the
Roman Catholic church were the same they were in ,the days
of error and persecution.—(Hear.) But was that
the case? No one could say that it was.—(Hear.)
He would ask if Noble Lords who made use of the statement
that the Catholic religion had changed, believed it ? He must
use serious words in what he stated—the Roman Catholic reli-
gion had sever changed, because those who were members of
that religion interpreted some portions of Scripture as placing
it under the direct influence of the Holy Spirit. Yet if it had
changed it was but human. Let them look at the course of
the Reiman Catholic religion. In ancient times crimes of the
most violent nature were perpetrated by those professing that
faith, while, for upwards of a century, such occurrences had
not taken place. There was another objection which would be
of more importance if it were applicable to the case. Quota-
tines were made to the affect that the dissatisfaction
and discontent existing among the Catholics of Ire-
land were caused by the Roman Catholic College
of Maynooth, and in order to prove these quotations, a
Neble Duke went through a catalogue of the assizes to show
the connexion between the doctrines taught to youth and the
crimes set forth in it. How had England treated the popula-
tion of Ireland ? They began by exterminating them—they
degraded them by penal laws, and therefore made them bad
subjects. Ireland could not endure the penal code which was
in force—they resisted it, and it was modified. They asked
the people of Ireland to assist them in carrying their union with
that country ; it was carried by their assistance. But. they
broke the promise which they made to them, and, after a con-
tenticn of nine-and-twenty years, that promise was performed,
and.the Catholic Emancipation Bill was carried—not on the
ground on which they all stated they were actuated in
supporting it (Hear)—not on the grounds of justice
or truth ( Hear) (because they had no right to
deprive people oho differed with them in religion of certain
rights) but because they could not resist it any longer.—( Hear,
bar.) He hoped that the measure tefore their Lordships
would not be an isolated one, and if they pursued the policy
they hail commenced they would not only confirm their union
with Ireland, but render that country, by a steady system of
impartiality and concession, the strongest instead of the weakest
part of the empire.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Earl who
moved the amendrnett (Earl Roden) said that the Protestant
religion had not had fair play. He ( Earl Spencer) most en-
tirely agreed with the Noble Earl. He thought Protestantism
had not had fair play, for when they had irritate 1 the great body
of the Roman Catholics, and had broken the promises
which they had made to them, and when they were under
the influence of penal laws, they presented them with the Pso-
testant religion. Nothing, could be more unwise or more likely
to engender a feeling of hostility to the Protestant religion,
and to prevent it from having fair play. Presbyterian Scot-
land was in a constant state of anarchy and confusion until
they gave her the Presbyterian form of Church Government,
when prospority:and peace followed.—( Hear, hear.) Ireland
was in dais state of confusion, and the only way was to adopt a
duffler policy towards Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) As a first step
in that direction, he should give the measure his best support.
Several Nimble Lords rose, but after some conversation they
gave way to
The Bishop of NORWICH,viho said he was anxious to state to
their Lordships why he intended to give his vote sincerely to the
measure before the House. He was going to make an apology
for rising to address their Lordship, but he did not think it
was necessary. No apology was necessary from a man who
.gave his: opinions honestly. But he thought that, from the
situation in which he was placed, ,he ought to give some
explanation why he chcse to ;ire his vote in favour of the
measure. He did so because they could be little aware of the
obloquy which every individual, more especially those of his
profession, was exposed who dared to come forward in a case
of toleration and of mercy towards those who differed from
them. He heard from a Noble Lord some harsh expressions
tewerds those ecclesiastics who were about to vote in favour of
the measure. He insinuated that they were like faithless
shepherds abandoning their flocks. That was like other lan-
guage which he had heard. He was shown a pamphlet last
week, which was written, he was sorry to say, by a clergyman
of the Church of England, and addressed to those Bishops who
were prepared to vote in favour of the grant to Maynooth, and
in which they were accused of falsehood. Stronger
lstiguage was used, which he would not insult
:twin Lordships by repeating. It accused them of
being heretics, and infidels, and as anti-Christian, and
that they were apoitates from their holy religion. A Right
Hon. baronet in another place was called by another Rev.
Orator—he trusted, for the honour of the Church of Enelaed
tint he was a Dissenter—he was denounced before a large
audience that he was an anti-Christ. He (the Bishop of
Norwich) was Protestant in his feelings altogether—nay, more,
lie hail reason to believe that he was opposed to the opinions,
part and parcel, of the Romidi creed, which opinions were
upheld and supported by many who had signed anti-May-
nooth petitions. He declared that he was averse to Popery in
whatever form or shape it appeared—he was especially averse
to that Popery which entered into Protestant denominations.
he was everso to it in every shape or way. Every denomina-
tion was anxious to cull for itself a maximum of toleration, and
to give others a minimum. He would say a few words with
respect to the petitions presented to the House. That they
had been numerous beyond all precedent he would not deny,
but that they represented the feelings of the people of Eng-
land, he was inclined from close investigation rather to deny.
He had taken some pains to analyse those petitions, and he
was prepared to say that they were not the resell of a spon-
taneous feeling, but were couched in the same language, and
in the same words, and were issued from an office in London,
and disseminated hi various parts t f the country, for the
purpose of being signed, and for the purpose of collecting
sobscriptions. He knew a town with a population of 9,01)0
persons, from which ten petitions had emanated. They were
scattered over the town, and in every ward, and the number
„f signatures was only 220. With respect to the members of
ids own profession, he believed that a very large proportion
were in favour of the measure. Of eleven pamphlets which
he had seen on the subject, three were written by clergymen
against it, and three by laymen in favour of it. He thought
ft their Lordships had taken the same pains to analyse the
petitions as lie had, they would have corroborated the testimony
he had given. He was ready to allow that the Dissenters had
sent. petitions, but they were opposed-to the grant on the
ground that they were opposed to all endowments. He would
Teed a circular addressed to the Roman Catholics of Ireland,
-which was adopted at a meeting of Dissenters held in London
in the course of last month. The Right Rev. Prelate then
. .

read portions of the circular which sympathised with the griev-
acces of the Catholics of Ireland, and specified them as most
'tlrtjust and oppressive, and attributed the grievances inflicted
. -on them to the Anglican Church in Ireland, and that they,would
use their utmost exertions to remove the grievances under which
they laboured.
The Earl of WIN CHILSEA asked from what body of Dis-
*enters the address emanated.
The Bishop of NORWICH said it emanated from a confe-
enee of Protestant Dissenters, held in Crosby-hall, London.
Int petitions to which he had alluded did not enter into a corn-
with large principles, but details. But it was their duty
fo'banish erroneous
t it was
oneousdottrines, and to combat error wherever
Obey
found i
no matter what station heir lttty—it was the duty of every man,
filled, to do his best to combat any
error which cuunteraeted the religion of the Gospel every
113 an, more or less, ought not to countenance error. He
bs:lifrred, therefore, that
it
t the Church of England was the best
in Christendom--that contained better elements than any
oilier church, and at the same time he must say that the
church; free as it was, altogether destitute of error....-
(:Hear, bear.). Yet he could see in
its
o elements
the
one
naen
side oscillation
to
the
4 fearful oscillation—from Calvinism
gates of Popery on the other. Hear, hear.) There were
emors in all human affairs, and it was their duty to contribute
to remove them by the best means in their power. The con-
duct of England towards Roman Catholic reland was unpa-
ralleled bad been
in the history of any denominations
opposed by
treated with asperity, and their doctrines ands—be
firtolerance and unchristian conduct. And how
ceuded ? They had altogether failed in accomplishing gleyrinbna;
they intended. The Roman Catholic population ofn
was 6,500,000. There were 1,500,000 of Protestants,
which not more than one-half were members of the Established
Church. Ten years ago, before the Ecclesiastical Commis•
sioners subdivided the diocese of Norwich into different
*sees, one Bishop, for 3,0001. to 4,0001. a year, had
a greater number of persons under his spiritual care
than the whole eighteen Protestant Bishops of Ireland.
There might be consolidated unions in Ireland, but that argu-
ment equally well applied to his own diocese; and when they
spoke of unions and consolidations, he thought that the less
they said upon the subject the better. But again they were
answered that the Roman Catholics of Ireland were worse than
any ROman Catholics on the face of the earth—more un-
manageable, more intractable. They might be so. But, he
would ask, why were they so ? He would (no matter what
his own opinions were), for the sake of argument, admit that
they were so; he would allow that they wero more unmanage-
able, more intractable; but was it not they—they, the Pro-