The Sun.
London, England, 1845-06-03 00:00:00

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Principles of the Protestant religion, and he would now submit
the proposition, that it was absolutely impossible to maintain
the system as it was'_( Hear, hear.) In a paper laid upon
th.eir Lordships' table three days ago, they had hren furnished
lYuwith the state of the present institution for the education of the
man Catholic priesthood of Ireland, as found in December
fast.or the The institution was represented as altogether insufficient
to purposes of education. The buildings were described
be in a state of ruin ; and the accommodation was such that
't was :impossible to accommodate with common decency the
students who attended there. The conveniences for study or
domestic who
were of the most imperfect character. The
professors and others engaged in the duties of educating the
science were inadequately rewarded. In fact, the professors of
,stence, of literature and of theology were not paid higher
Shea
, "romon clerks. 'lt also was stated that to render it possible
.o carryon the institution, even under these imperfect arrange-
du!'Meats, it was found necessary to send the students away
ng the vacation. This step was absolutely necessary in
Ze°seer to ensure anything like cleanliness, and to suit the
ing wants of the establishment. It was necessary to
. maintain the institution for the uses of the Roman Catholics
:tl'let.. .Ireland—for it would be admitted they must have ecelesi-
F,, and if so it was evident that at present it was quite
therefore for the purpose. Her Majesty's Government,
4efseitefore proposed that to an institution supported by the
s_tr,lg of the great body of the people of Ireland, means
footing
be afforded so as to establish it on the same
stit Ing'
and
on the same principles as the other in-
All bust of the country formed for similar purposes.
rnest admit that the Roman Catholic ecclesiastics exercised
great influence over the minds of the people, and if so, it was
reasonable that their h I I endeavour to provide
ori s s MI (
litts:,rr means for their eduction. Such a course was called
vietorder to secure the peace and happiness of the country.
ternhould endeavour togive the students at Maynooth those
for 4,lts which belon togmen who are to fill the stations of life
in sn'oich they are intgended. They ought to have instructions
hay uterature and science as well as in theology—they ought to
rt!.ilietitillitaiteea,Ftpipeaeraitus d books which are necessary to afford
n the various branches of. science, and other
alas*
~,,,nr the performance of their duties as cede-
aglissi,, °!Y Lords, I am aware there is a prejudice existing
%thin he institution and against those educated there. I have
this is , t° saY on this subject, except that an institution such as
the
NI epresented to be in these papers could not h.aveans.wer.etd
the The sti;P°se which the Irish people had in view in instituting.i the hJect of the measure which we propose is that of raising
ceduar,acter of the institution and the character of those who
telty hai,il,,_t" tbere—that the persons educated at Maynooth
111"'--es hsi' `re Bailie station and respectability which we. have all
i for°l.lkto the Roman Catholic clergymen in foreign that tho,, -.eta all of us entertain the highest respect, a.nd.
it° eaere,-1 414,9 be Inert of education and manners, and enabled
'lllPre4 the influence which belongs to them for the social.
Producit.ent of the people. If the measure has the effectdo
clebliriee -o,,:sktiell Men for the ministry we shall have rendere
.a
ksktil!fory-,„',.1 public by introducing and recommending this
a's insoeils, Lordships' adoption. I hope the measure will not
-t t liertetit with our religious principles, or likely to injure
~e4ens convictions of Protestants.—( The Noble Duke
"nid y Zito the details of the measure which have been
t
illklstaian. tedly before the public.) The annual
hear.)gran
binninid,perpetually recurring discussion.—(Hear,
es—b"Perpetthiit nothing can be more wise than makingths
f cap
of h.llll, to get rid of those discussions which. are the
N-eitaY tak.9143, of much ill-feeling and prejudice. I th.ere.-
i.-...it it i 3 desirable we should pass this Bill, if it
if iIM I,
tesssrise,„:° other benefit than that of getting rid
iSi -",,juetal discussions. I have already said that the grant
~,,_,-.40. aluor-"lltien was never considered to involve any religious
ml, 13 principles, and it cannot be considered to do so
h_-"ttitiost tlst I beg leave to remind your Lordships that this in-
i'lltingt:ali been maintained fifty years.—( Hear, hear. ).
1,..,44 base e'ltY sears of that period we were engaged 11? w.ar,
is the eseatti,isstiaeienetlfit sinee thenafffoeretaelrg period of agitation,
i the interests of Ire-
44,uring which oyoUl.'ll7,:tdlotnhe Cathelicf.' Association and other
e°eteio4ttistwhich you have had to make enactments, to pass
nikett dift ola, and other measures of that description. To the
illkn e11,,1t question of all you put an end fifteen years ago—
is' Since then rny Lords, we cannot say that we have L4l,llljellt,,terY tranquil state On the very morrow of the day
rulos. of' curate Bill seas passed, measures were taken for the pur-
0fP."41 ortj;ting discussion and agitation on the question of the
4444
and
uien.--( Hear, hear.) There was a
.good_ deal
1/4„t ,list th,,nd difficulty about this question, and particularly i
of
the des
ill% Years. Up to 1843 there existed a good deal
of , Minds of some and terror in the minds of others.
'leis $ "' Rear Great attention was drawn to
fetlnentostanee
lip'"
.eshe , and aenareffect on the question was produced in
/10714thle r tortes' and a great many
doubted that it would be
ti lite, toresist the attempt that was made, by tumult and
Ilill'onls Carry the repeal of the union.—( Hear, hear. )
4 desisi ' abatever may be the opinion of the legal effect of
hi*red '441 °f Your L dh. ' House on the writ of error de-
lie 10. the month onfr As 'fru' st or September last, there is no hie itle:l senses who on; doubts that it is absolutely im-
Ztgairi earrY any measure by tumult and violence in Ire.
ear, sit, the wishes of the Government and the Parliament.
tact' tbelar.) believe that no man in his senses now
le,'ote 'aet, and that we are, therefore, this day, in a si-
iNt"tots cents take the consideration of this measure. We
ee it it,. sinned tho grant for fifty years, and c.annot with-
-144'01, 'r)tit having the appearance of persecution. There
tsSirate' tehight Millions of Catholics in Ireland, and we can-
/a Itai her° without religious instruction. My Lords, I
;1,; th-aanirnous consent to the Bill .of which I
thst.l, te,„°h°llour to propose the second reading. . .
'ko'.4tiss - °f CAMBRIDGE said that he could not sit in
tkirntleepaud give a silent vote on a question of such paramount
ktsfinoasiiiti°, the people of Ireland. He thought it one of the
litie;44 iin"°,'S measures which had ever been introduced
„hes* attsPe ; and although he would give in to none in his
Iv kip -41 tent to the Protestant religion as established, he_
. e 0,1! the question by his vote, and he really considered
kteit
of .`rtiment deserved the thanks of the House for h
fp,„. p it N, d
-la .apirl
~, ar .
t'llie.lita -st ODEN said that it grieved him to differ
41 bss A "üble Duke who had introduced this
pdsel.to;„4l-4,, 4 Member of their Lordships' House,
eLleethlta etZe very earliest opportunity afforded him to en-
u-ses, ti
,eoheir,,the progress of this measure. Such was his
ps,4lth,Jarth,„lol4 with an amendment that before they pro-
-01%1,7.'4%,..--,, they should appoint a Select Committee up
fthrtls -14tin-Ltoto the nature of the instruction given in the
‘444:4Ztti-n of Maynooth, which Parliament was now,
infers t'4 t
that Ned to s tee 0 establish, by conferring on it a permanenti
1' tj tion,tile .ktusted that if in the course of discussion !e
'Le ()P.m.' be°,l;lllions entertained by many Noble Lords in
Skisepr"f olt-h.:11 of ti,,ld be forgiven, because he should have but '
rs. /,‘L man who had' no because
for the sensibili-
TIN th,n a Itles,',n (Lord Roden) had now fora long ser.ies odf
0:4 t `t ti 'Der either of that or of the other House , a.n
'O7 t 4.104 l'irtinit:.ll,* had tought it inconsistent in the Parlia-
-01,0;e41 of ir_tit country even to vete the annual sum to
ls,t! dile °to th;!Ynooth. How much more, then, should he
hOtitioetras set'', Measure. He would rem'ind Noble Lords
nikstliia
.i., tt
t.Mtended to he, as before, a merely tolerated
litit 4lffer "'as intended to be a State establishment,.
.but
14,1)01,4• ilnc, that it would not be under the supervision
ilt' s4nY, or could could not look at this measure as one of mere
Ni4444tollittn it aye a question of pounds,. shillings, and pence. He
~, ,
St, he 4 religious question, and if the House
.wanted.
t''etN 4 hemishould refer them to the numerous petitions
Iss ih...the hem he had himself presented—and they did not
SO 0:4 ~,,,, se had
of the middle classes only,
le' th 4 lows, some from the higher, and others
ipsiks, sere sr ' grades of society. There were peti-
m r 'I'M °ln Church of England men, from Wes-
,,o, Itril e hdepehs
it tie' to a°. de- e.nts,. from he Free Church of Scotland,
ssoy sirth
evisimination, for eall. had sunk minor diffe-
it Itap_hed t_ll,t he would call this holy union.—(Cheers.)
titiiti4 ritrys... ° the opinions expressed by the great men of
s., tlisslniniewistanti whom, if he named them, their Lordships
Oh Sli ''dge I. ht be quoted. One
et ste siisk , 0 ue wort y o
t4.t.tlis le la ,e, in the House of Commons some
sic°sselser,,,' °Lebate on a similar question, and he would
.pli L4lll';', He °I reading a short quotation from what he had
AVolt i li was a Roden) stood high in the opinion of
ylishstiewie (Lord had the honour and the. h.ap-
iti'linp aionre:!,_l,tirn well. He had loved him when living,
kithkt 1.4„, hi tin
memory when dead—and when he named.
wsitt „„4 Larne, he was that no one would coincide
c2seltred I.„.,ltated with greatersure fervour than the Noble
ItLlit t° nstee„,',°Plsosite (Lord Brougham), who knew him
I'l' It'ad ;-eu him highly. The Noble Lord then pro-
vrti:tee, irl- quotation from a speech delivered by William
~Illtls, 4' atd the year 1808 on the meaning of the word
OpihlC hear as "length length to Which it should be
.extended—
idrll the ,slp thine,°.lnPatible with the peace of society. He
Ills Idiesh`sathei,:„"l'mg that great benefits had been conferred
ear- -3
of Ireland from which Protestants
le/4,dt e.„te,:eluded ; and 'he might merely cite
titit„ltetntand teiti Society, which had, he believed, done more
nti4.llPtit dow't soy
other institution. Government. had,
Yelienhetse
0,,11 that society, and founded en its ruins a
'"s.gattelcif the r4ucation, which was contrary not only to
e two the preothierer -
„hy in that country, but he believed
01Ott) Ire raids esstants also. It had been argued that there
t4h4 rel,,d. for this measure—one, that it would give
4t keSati: arid the other, that it would extend the bles-
-4illp„lntit by -n, to the Irish Peo le Had it been received
ets'n t xttoe Irish themserves.? He should just read , ,if %SAN irlacr front a letter of the Roman Catholic
'l'lti.the. aeutnaagtie 1,2 t.• Higgins ; and also a quotation from
tic'tbs.' Wh• ntry, / an Irish priest in a differen.t
.pag,r,t
Ispehich has the Noble Lord read Dr. Higgin. s
11;ipthefi„Inid that readY appeared in all the journals.e
q DIIIte it, atisrthis measure was dictated by fear. !1,. %sprees ItY-sb„,,rle believed that it was dictated by a wish
kse.t.l4ltlnh itiVllebill, one that it would secure a cordial and
p'ee, 4Phete, that "1. But no sooner had it gone forth
‘iipe,s hi ass the
agitation could nut be put
.down
St -th ittleeu Monster meetings were again proclaimed.
itlipilt si.te
ht sh4lin at Cork, another at Navan, and he had
ls,
Sheba
'oyes cement of a meeting to be held on the
St'idn th„-° Isr t' °0 the Ist of July —( Cheers. ) Was that
`isilth 4.%lUit a°hesBtanta of Ireland io be allowed—( Cheers)
14 *l'esti`g gio-' °Pun the anniversary of the great victory,
kievinfth 'l°4s and immortal King William secured
iho,itrs.) hiessihf'snglish nation, arid for the Roman Catholics
NibSi IN, Ns 5 . which they never before possessed.—
s pen toeis
who in her Majesty's Government to allow
(\ll otl...tthbeat da"7g atvhee up their peaceful and loyal pre-
cis? oh, se insult_ , , command of the Crown, to allow
ts N ear, saesty's ess ea • Let him call back the. recol_lee-
Ott: l'isstr Deher7vernment to what occurred in. 1842.
!lilt Issl t,efees'taats of I'l.ll fury of agitation was carried so far
kit llt,'t io e and quitted the country in hundreds,
4' hskr,4 fearountry or in Arnerica.s Hear, bear.)
kliNetlitZer
icyisi isleGovernstiiethrove those people to emigrate—
s,th- ~llerets;.. nent showed its consciousness of
rid,tts7 realeas, h:ug the military force and fortifying the
sj altN Wks th art ) Strong measures were resorted to,
ttlspNihn ireprteestoredattethe repeal agitation subsided, and the
O 100) 4,1, Verktt Peace. --( Hear, hear.) Prosperity
s hes,' rain treadsait Promoted, speculation received a
tls of th t) It Were projected in every quarter.—
t, lid , e (-. ass
,t 'vie It uertilnn as the declaration of the inten-
tisti tt he Rave neht on this Bill were made known in
, Isitent t read crew life to ait ti In support of his
sip ate 4,411 n extract g a on.
It r eat a°° ]tern
~_ from the work of Mr. Inglis, the
ti..pli Isopietout y 4 71,? Was no friend to the Protestant Es-
doer);lis:Y was egg`me testimony to the fact, that the ran- );lid tl4.tlilan exitteacirnted by the education at Maynooth.
%Slittsnitlltha_Ml Ittie,„ I,4oBPaiti, as he and every one wire
tisir:se eeQttehtio; tot.
ttheeirHsorrotw.liCatheers. )
had taken
liNinntlP's 'lmtislaurhond of Dingle,ninnsethee countyw of Kerry,
iii4,44%4 ctlitili.ei atni,:brigosrt the Roman Cath. olic priest
NI ,tietql. '44 Lath i• rank, who was a magistrate, re-
Iht,tkihi ()! th'( Ch,e, °,le Persuasion and joined the Estab-
ki es ng of eon, 8') The Noble Lord then read the
ip th,ot 7,Persseu,,rra, addressed to the Lord Lieutenant,
tiitk, N httaueir
stated
which they had suffered in conse)sse`Ntt ut I atatere!entious conduct. ( Hear, hear.)
tliti i'DitOw, and , ,1 that memorial were prove
betted trelttbd°f pert'ue, therefore, agreed with Mr. highs,
11l ter tst"° niZvenths as'Y more Anti-Protestant' and ranco-
rlspiLinsi'sneati: the ,:n lu Spain. —( Hear, hear.) Whilst he
tieN r tq-I'. he d':"1 Roman Catholics of his country a
tri NI, l'k lild
~f Icl not think that further endowment of
4:l)stnlOnitilta'"ideeetitsethat Object. a The Noble Lord th.en tlistne 5.,41e eeletree irt 1-8‘,5 Mr. O'Connell before a Perim.-
sti„ the ati,e tha, oa, %viten that gentleman gave testi-
)tiT the kisete4nt ittsblt,thede priests who formerly were educated strong Anti-Jacobin principles, but
I.ifttlidltishnlstl4l,e(inrlcclated
at Maynooth were more identified
t N ) 1‘ ttlti '"nsequeritiv had lees of that property,
l'iltith4tt'vii:a isilsiit Ir(4'113:calle!:1 loialty..-6‘ Hhear," md
tttly pelt a 110 N alight not perhaps be aware of the
nhoishee,flao Catholic had-to endure, viben he n that creed, but there was no such
lia.

danger to the Protestant clergyman who thought fit to adopt
the Roman Catholic persuasion. He knew that these unfor-
tunate men would be persecuted. He could not convince any
man more to be patient than the poor Roman Catholic, who
left that Church for conscience sake, to join the Protestant
form of belief. He felt assured that no Roman Catholic Peer,
who now heard him, could do otherwise than believe that no
Roman Catholic would be safe from persecution who had be-
come a Protestant. He had been lately present at a meeting
held in Dublin, against this Bill; and there was a Roman Ca-
tholic priest who said he had been at Maynooth. He was
called on to state what he knew of that institution. He said
that as far as the confessional was concerned his mouth was
sealed for ever ; but he (Lord Roden) had now before him a
copy of the statement that that gentleman made, and he would
read it. ( Here the Noble Lord read the statement, by which
it appeared that the party alluded to was represented to state
that every species of evasion was resorted to in order to avoid
taking the oath of allegiance, such as feigning illness, not
kissing the book, repeating the words of the oath backwards,
tke. &c. The statement was a very long one, but the whole
tenor of it was to the same effect, namely, devices for evading
the oath of allegiance "to a Protestant Sovereign." When
the Noble Lord had concluded reading the document, he went
on to say that after the meeting was over, the individual who
made the statement offered to his Lordship to swear to the
truth of it.) He ( Lord Roden) would ask, what was the
cause of all this disaffection, but the system of education
now in force in Maynooth? The Noble Duke who had in-
troduced this measure had not made the slightest allusion to
this system. If the doctrines taught at Maynooth were ultra-
montain doctrines—if they were the doctrines of Italy, then
he would say they were at variance with allegiance to the
Sovereign of this country by Irishmen.—( Hear, hear.) He
would then ask, were not these grounds sufficient to warrant
him in calling upon their Lordships to comply with his propo-
sition, namely, to appoint a Committee to inquire into the
present system of education at Maynooth ?—( Hear, hear.) A
commission of inquiry was appointed in the year 1825, for
inquiring into the state of Ireland ; but that commission broke
up without extending their inquiry to Maynooth. He was
further justified in his demand for inquiry by the speech of Sir
Robert Peel in 1840, when the Right Hon. Baronet said,
in the debate on the Maynooth question, that he did not mean
to contend that the system of education at Maynooth
College was one which did not demand inquiry ; on
the contrary, he ( Sir B. Peel) would be most anxious for in-
quiry, and if that inquiry had taken place, he would vote for
the grant with much more satisfaction. He ( Lord Roden)
now advocated the same principle—namely, the necessity for
inquiry, and he called for it in the name of the people of Eng-
land and the people of Scotland...es( Hear.) He would new
fortify his argument by a still stronger ground—namely, by
reading from the Eighth Report on the state of Maynooth,
under the presidency of Dr. Crolly, the names of the books
read at Maynooth College ; they were, Delahogue's Dogmatical
Theology, and Bailey's Moral Tracts. The Noble Lord next
read an extract from an appendix to a Parliamentary report of
18,36, in which, he said, Dr. Machete denied that ultra-montaine
doctrines were inculcated at Maynooth, as they were not
conducive to the allegiance of Irish subjects to the British
Crown. The Noble Lord then referred to a letter of the Cardi-
nal Prefect of the Propaganda at Rome in the year 1796,
and read an extract from it, with a view to show that in May-
nooth College the students were obliged to read " Thomas
Aquinas" as one of their College books, and contended that
those students were obliged to read that book, which he ( Lord
R.) would contend for it, contained nothing more nor less than
ultra-montaine doctrines. Surely they would not give that
sum to produce the disloyalty and misery which is so prevalent
in that country. He would now give aq extract from " Thomas
Aquinas" to show the bearing and tendency of that theologian's
opinions. With respect to the question How heretics should
be treated ?'' he distinctly states that heretics should be punished
with death ; and this is the divine who is called in Maynooth
their divine master. In another book used there" Menochius."
the author of it, in reply to the question as to how heretics should
be treated, refers to Maldonatus, who gives it as his opinion that
heretics should be put to death rather than thieves or mur-
derers, because the former destroyed the soul, but
the latter took away only the life or property.
This he says in his commentary on that passage of the
Scriptures.where allusion was made to the plucking up of
the tares from the good seed. Now that system of instruction
to which he had called their attention at once accounted for
the crimes and enormities which were committed by the poor
of Ireland. He considered that he established sufficient grounds
why they should hesitate before they continued or augmented
that grant—until they knew what really was the system of in-
struction pursued in Maynooth. He would, in conclusion, ree
fer to only one other authority—Mr. Alexander Knox. He
was a person who knew the state of the case well, being Se-
cretary to Lard Castlereagh, and treasurer to Maynooth, to
which office he was appointed by that Nobleman. This
person said that the three first clergymen who were ap-
pointed urofessors of Maynooth were three refugee French
priests, wi;,o had escaped from the rope and the lamp-
post, and all the horrors of the French Revolution. The
Noble Lord, having read a long statement of the opinions of
Mr. Alexander in refes-ence to the doctrines inculcated at May-
nooth, proceeded to say that he now thought he had grounds
for maintaining that the I....itra-montaine doctrines were
still taught there.—( Hear, hear. 1 He would ask them
what was there in that Bill to Ferovide that the Gal-
ilean doctrines should be substitute for the ultra-
ti
e Cardinal:Pre-
montaine doctrines, or that the injunctions of
ce the trus-
feet of the Propaganda at Rome should not indite:
• Catholic
tees of the college. In consideration of his pot),
fellow-countrymen he could not consent to that Bill. The
Roman Catholic doctrines were dangerous. He had sworn, .in
common wirh some of their Lordships, that Catholic doctrines
were idolatrous. He, therefore, believed in the truth of what
he swore, and believing so, he could not consent to any mea-
sure that established or perpetuated them. Those who felt
strongly on the subject were called illiberal and bigoted, and he
had often heard it said that he delighted in calling his Catholic
friends idolators. He had lived many years among his Roman
Catholic brethren. He had taken an active part against them. In
1829 he exerted himself to the utmost to prevent the admission
of Roman Catholics to that and the other House. But he de-
fied any one to stake that ever he uttered a harsh word against
them. All he would say was, that if they could divest them-
selves of priesk influence, he would freely trust his life and
property amongst them.—( Hear, hear.) The eyes of the
community were on their Lordships. There never was such
excitement in the country on any other subject, and much of
the future happiness or misery of the country would deperd
upon the decision to which they would come upon that ques-
tion. The measure had been frequently argued as if the Ro-
man Catholics alone comprised the people of Ireland. The
question of population had been glanced at by the Noble Duke,
and he believed that his statements were nearly correct—
namely, seven millions of Catholics and one million and a half
of Protestants and Dissenters. Although the latter were the
minority they comprised those who had always displayed
affection and loyalty to that country, and were to
a man opposed to the repeal of the Union.
( Cries of " Hear, hear.") Were they then to sacrifice
that portion of their Irish subjects to the howl of the priesthood ?
The Protestants of Ireland thought they had been betrayed,
and they now imagined that little else remained for them but
to consult for the altar and their homes. —( Hear, hear. )
They asked them to put down agitation, and in the face of
their entreaties their Lordships stood aloof and apathetic; and
they are disgusted at the policy which was pursued. When the
day of trial arrives (and it must arrive sooner than was expected)
they would find the Protestants of freland true to the consti-
tution, and arrayed on the side of England. He should now
move that, previous io the consideration of the Bill before the
House, a Select Committee should be appointed to inquire and
report to the House what were the class-books and books of
reference used at Maynooth, and what was the nature
of the tenets and doctrines inculcated there.—( Hear, hear. )
The Bishop of LONDON, who was very indistinctly heard,
said he was labouring under indisposition, which would prevent
him troubling their Lordships at much length, but he was
anxious to express his opinion on the question before the House.
After the most mature deliberation he had determined to with-
hold his consent from the measure now introduced, regarding
it, as he did, as contradictory to and subversive of the best
principles of the Constitution, apart from all theological consi-
derations. In the latter view he would abstain from discuss-
ing the question, believing, as he did, that that House was a
very unbecoming arena for polemical controversy. especially
since the admission of Peers of a creed contemned by the articles
and fundamental doctrines of the Anglican Church. When,
however, he remembered the state of the Irish peasantry,
moulded into disaffection toward England and her established
religion by the teaching of their priests, and that from that
class were selected the students subsequently devoted to ascetic
instruction, he could not conceive a system more cal-
culated to create and prolong error. As to the de-
fence in favour of the measure, that it would tend
to the subsequent promotion of trade, by extending the
opportunities of study and education, he should be in-
clined to give that argument some weight, did he see the
slightest intimation of a change in the present objectionable
system. Had he perceived such a change even prospectively
held out, he should have hesitated in the record of his present
vote, hut in the absence of all such pledge or anticipation, he
believed that the increase of the present system would be but
the encouragement of error, and its furtherance the promotion
of principles repugnant to the Scriptures and the tenets of the
Established Church. The framing of the Bill was one of the
most important events in the history of this country. If the
measure were passed, it would lead to the endowment of all
religious systems, and would lead to the acknowledgement that
the State was not a competent authority to judge on the sub-
ject of religion. This, he held, was the first step to link the State
to the Roman Catholic religion. He would beg to remind their
Lordships that the original endowment of Maynooth was not
that it should be considered a grant from the State, but merely
as a perpetuation of the grants of pious individuals for the pur-
poses of Roman Catholic education. This view of the grant
was supported by the Noble Duke (the Duke of Wellington)
when Sir Arthur Wellesley, and by a late pious and active op-
ponent of the detestable traffic of negro slavery, Mr. Stephens.
He judged not of the feelings of other parties, but pledged as
he was to oppose all heresies and errors, and to call upon others
to do the same, how was it possible for him to support such an
endowment as that proposed ? (Hear, hear.) It might be
said that by supporting the Regium Donum he was supporting
Arianism, but if Arianism was taught at the College
of Belfast, it was no part of the original understanding, whereas
Maynooth College was established avowedly to teach the doc-
trines of the Roman Catholic religion. With regard to the
grants to the Roman Catholics of Canada, which had been re-
ferred to as a parallel case, he might say that that was
not :the case, as the grant to the Roman Catholies
there existed prior to the war by which those
colonies were united to the Crown of Great Britain. He
might be asked, if you will not do this for the Roman Catholics
of Ireland what will you do? He did not feel that he was
called upon to answer such an inquiry. He gave the greatest
credit to the pure, and honourable, and generous intentions of
the Government in bringing forward this measure. He had
no doubt that they regarded it as a measure tending to heal, in
some degree, those wounds which had so long prevented the
peace and osperity of Ireland, and as in no way calculated to
injure the-Established Church ; but he himself entertained a
very different opinion of the measure. He could easily conceive
the embarrassment of statesmen, when they cast their eyes over
the map of Ireland, how that country was to be governed. He
(the Bishop of London) must confess himself entirely ignorant.
—( Hear, hear.) But while he professed himself ignorant of
the right mode of governing that country in detail, he had no
hesitation or doubt in expressing his opinion as to what was the
right principle. It was briefly this, and with it he would con-
clude : in governing that or any other country, never, for any
consideration, do that which is clearly wrong in principle. Do
your best to discover what is right, and then follow that up fear-
lessly and fully, trusting for the issue to the Supreme Disposer
of events, who, as all experience showed them, would never
fail to uphold his own truth.— ( Hear, hear. )
The Earl of St. GERMANS thought that the Noble Lord
who had addressed the House, and the Right Reverend
Prelate who had just sat down, had altogether mistaken the
nature of the grant. If they looked at the Act of 1795,
they would find that. a provision was made for the education of
the Roman Catholic priesthood. This grant, both before and
after the Uuion, had been annually voted. It had been voted
by every Parliament for the last fifty years, and thus, upon the
faith of successive Protestant Parliaments, and, among others,
by those in which Mr. Pitt was Prime Minister, had the grant
been conceded ; and he (Lord Germans) did not see any distinc •
tion bete eels the grant. as given heretofore, and as now proposed
to be taken from the Consolidated Fund. With regard to the
objectioeo that had been urged against the system of educa-
tion pursued at May nooth he would refer to the Commissioners
that had inquired into the state of education in Ireland, and
who had referred specially to Maynooth College. He stated
the course of education pursued there was not such as had
been represented, and bore evidence to the fact, that the doe-

trine of Divine allegiance and submission to the Pope in
temporal affairs was not taught in that institution.—(Hear,
hear.) There were, no doubt, many imperfections in the
system of education pursued there, and parties who issued
from thence had taken part in the violent political proceed-
ings which had recently distracted Ireland, but this evil had
arisen from the meagre and imperfect system of education which
had prevailed there, and which the present measure proposed to
remedy. Was it a matter of astonishment that priests, placed in
the midst of a starving population, and imperfectly educated,
should be led away by the wiles of agitators ? The Noble
Earl alluded to Bishop Higgins; but Bishop Higgins was not a
student at Maynooth, but had been educated at Rome or
Paris. The College was established when Jacobinical princi-
ples were rife, and there were a great many of them then—a
very considerable number indeed—inferior in rank and educa-
tion to the present class of Irish clergy, and who were called
" hedge priests." The Irish priests were at least attentive to
their flocks, and when " pain and anguish wrung the brow" of
the suffering members of their flock, the priest was fore-
most to minister to their spiritual and temporal
necessities, and to console them.— ( Hear.) Was it
not worth while to make the proposed experiment and raise the
priests of Ireland in the social as well as in the literary and
scientific scale ? The Noble Earl did not suggest any remedy,
aad admitted that he knew of nothing which would be a salu-
tary and permanent means of restoring tranquillity to that
country. The Noble Earl complained of the defective state of
the Protestant Church in Ireland, but he could hardly think a
Church was deficient in a pecuniary point of view which, not
having a congregation of a million, enjoyed revenues to the
amount of 600,0001.—(Hear, hear.) He would sit down by
expressing an earnest hope that their Lordships would consent
to the second reading of the Bill with an overwhelming
majority.—( Cheers. )
The Duke of MANCHESTER thought Maynooth College
rather tended to keep the Irish people in a state of bondage
and ignorance. He thought it was very important to know
what the tendency of the doctrines of Maynooth really was,
for a gentleman who had been professor at Maynooth
said all the bishops of Ireland were Repealer..
And yet, strange to say, it was those same dis-
affected and disloyal men her Majesty's Government was
about to patronise. The Noble Duke read several extracts,
showing the state of crime in Ireland. (The extracts were
taken from ,the charges of judges appointed by the present
Government—Baron Lefroy and others.) Six hundred and
fifty-three offences were committed in six months, Baron
Lefroy said, in one riding of Tipperary, and not a fourth of
the offenders had been brought to conviction. Such was the
moral condition of the peeple of Ireland. Now these were
proofs that not only did the Roman Catholics conceal crime,
but they also connived at it. The Noble Duke then read part
of the evidence taken before the House of Lords, to show that
an Irish priest had, from the altar, denounced those who had
given evidence in a criminal case as informers and blood-
mongers. They were also told that, after the concessions of
1830, crime had greatly increased; Whiteboyism prevailed,'and,
instigated by their priesthood, the populace evinced a deter-
mined opposition •to the payment of tithes. In 1832 assas-
sinations and murders wore no longer rare, and in few in-
stances could the crimes be traced to the guilty parties ; and
they knew, en unquestionable authority, that the teachers of
the people were the great movers of crime. The doctrines
taught at Maynooth all led to the consequences he had de-
tailed, because they were founded on Dens' theology.
The doctrines of the Jesuits were discountenanced in other
Catholic countries. But it was maintained in Ireland, and the
books of the Jesuits were class books in Maynooth. This led
to the conduct of the Irish Catholic priests in giving absolution
to a man before he has made restitution. This was carried so
far iu Ireland, that it had occurred when men convicted of
Ribbonism were disposed to make restitution, the priest to
whom they confessed had interfered to prevent them.—(Hear,
hear.) If those doctrines were not taught at Maynooth, it
would be only justice to the priests who governed that college
to give them an opportunity of disproving the charges.
—(Hear, hear.) Why was it that Romanism was more
impracticable in Ireland than in other countries ?
It was owing to the freedom of the British Constitution, which
left the outer man of the Romanist free, giving the priest the
means of making his inner man more enslaved.—(Hear, and a
laugh.) He spoke of Romanism now as a political, not as a
religious, scheme.—(Hear, hear.) He thought that there
ought to be an inquiry into the doctrines which the Govern-
ment was about to spread, before the Parliament should be
called upon to give money for the purpose. There was the
doctrine of " venial sin," which tended to weaken the morals

of the people, and to lead them into so slight a disregard of the
rights of property, that their own temporal interests were
damaged at the same time as the interests of their
souls, and they continued in starvation and misery
whilst their souls were endangered. The doctrine of
" venial sin" kept the morals of the people so low as to
deter eapital from going to the country He would occupy the
House no longer than to declare his belief, that if even all the
forfeited estates in Ireland were restored to the Roman Catho-
lics, they could not be loyal to a Protestant Sovereign so long
as he bulls to which he had referred remained in force.
Lord BEAUMONT protested against the charges made against
his co-religionists. If the Noble Lord who spoke last believed
that such doctrines as he charged the Roman Catholics with
existed, he did not do his duty unless he called upon the Par-
liament to sweep such venom from the land. If such charges
were true, toleration would be a crime. But when he listened
to the authorities which the Noble Duke and the Noble
Earl who spoke before him had made up their story from,
he found that those Noble Lords knew nothing of the doc-
trines that were taught by the Catholic Church. Many of
the dogmas charged upon the Church were the wily enuncia-
tions of statesmen for political purposes, and never had the
-ountenance of the Church. Many of the questions involved
in ,:"em were never for a moment entertained by the Church.
The Iy`'ble Lord might as well have quoted from the book of
any layrnao, and state such lay doctrines as of the highest ec-
clesiastical ay:
thority. There was a medium between the doc-
trines of the Gallican Church and those of the Trans-
alpine or Tran: montane party. (Cries of " Hear,
hear.") The book upon
which so much stress had been
.
laid by the Noble Lords opposite had, in many particulars,
been condemned by the Chen
•ch in the most authoritative man-
ner. He would, therefore, if h.' might be allowed to use the
.
term, give the lie most positively to the assertion, that the
doctrines contained in that book (0 Dens' Theology") were
the docrines of the Church.

.
Earl RODEN said he found the hook' in the catalogue of
the Maynooth class-books.
Lord BEAUMONT said if the Noble Earl had heard him out
he would have found that he was prepared to exp lain that circum-
stance. The students of theology were required t..) read over the
antagonist works, and this book, as read in the Qsussse, was pre-
pared by an introduction, cautioning the students
against the doctrines.—(Loud cries of " Heart hear.")
Even if this grant to Maynooth were refused, the College
would flourish—the Roman Catholic religion in Ireland wt-Suld
flourish as it had hitherto done, in spite of every persecutio.l
—( Hear, hear )—and, however the Government of this country
might try to lighten the poverty and improve the condition of
that suffering people—( Hear, hear, hear).—unless the Noble
Earl was prepared to take a backward stop, he could not leave
things as they were, but must take measures to elevate the op-
pressed Church, to improve the condition of the people, and to
diminish the bitter antagonism between the two Churches.—
(Hear, hear.) The more nearly the two Churches were
brought to one level, the less would be the animosity
between their members.—( Hear.) He had been in countries
where the two communions worshipped in the same churches,
and the utmost harmony prevailed amongst them.—( Hear. )
Let the Government of this country place the two Churches
upon the same footing here as they were in the parts of Ger-
many to which he referred, and they would find the same cor-
diality to be the result. He should only add, that in speaking
to this question he was placed in the dilemma either of speaking
of it as he felt, or as an indication of something that was to
follow in the same direction. This might alarm some ; but
even at that risk he would rather do so than hold hack
and speak in a cautious or jesuitical manner.—( Hear, hear.)
He did not mean to look upon it as a mere question of recon-
ciliation, for he did not think it would be sufficient to reconcile
the Roman Catholic priests, not to speak of the Catholic laity,
of Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) There was also something to be
done for the laity, if this country meant to conciliate Ireland.
He alluded to the Bill now before the other House for the
extension of lay education. Many men of high station, if well
educated, might then take a turn for divinity, and having
become good theologians they might enter Maynooth College
and become Catholic clergymen of the highest order.—( Hear. )
There was another subject which he would fain allude to. He
did not wish to make this solely a religious question. It
was well known that not only in Ireland but all over
Europe, the poorer the clergy were, the greater their influ-
ence ; and theref,re on that ground this House should not
hesitate to accede to the measure; for it would have the
effect of elevating the character of the Irish clergy.—
( Hear, hear.) With regard to the persecutions for consci-
ence sake, to which the Noble Lord opposite had alluded, he
( Lord Beaumont) fully agreed with the Noble Lord, that
protection and respect should be extended to the religious
opinions of all.--( Hear, hear.) Time was, when the clergy
of Bavaria were most intolerant; but now they were amongst
the most liberal men of Europe.—( Hear, hear.) He would
not further trespass on their Lordships ; but he could not sit
down with est expressing his gratitude to the Government for
this measure, as a Roman Catholic, though it was no more
than justice demanded, or was intended by those who preceded
the present Government.—( Loud cheers.)
Lord HARDWICK rose, and moved that the debate be
then adjourned.
Lord BROUGHAM thought, that if they adjourned to-
night, they would have to adjourn to-morrow night also.
At any rate they should continue the debate for a few hours
longer.
Lord COLCHESTER moved that the debate be continued.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE thought that an oppor-
tunity should be afforded to the Lord Bishop of Cashel to
address their Lordships that night.
The Bishop of CASHEL rose and said that if he spoke that
night, he had one consolation to offer their Lordships, that he
would not detain them so long as, in all probability, he would
if they adjourned the Bill till to-morrow night.—(Great
Laughter.) The doctrines taught at Maynooth would,
in his opinion, disgrace any religion. It was, he
thought, a snbject of rejoicing that the clergy of their
Church were educated as gentlemen, and were not
merely stuffed with dogmatic theology. He would not detain
them long. One point which he would refer to was the infu-
sion of the Jesuits into the institutions that were spreading
over the country. Taking everything into account, he would
call upon the Roman Catholic Members of that House to join
with him in endeavouring to arrest the influence of the Jesuits,
which was becoming so powerful and dangerous. But the
main ground on which he felt himself called upon to oppose
the Bill was his disinclination to be a party to the dissemina-
tion of error. He trusted he would express himself so as to
give no offence to those Catholics who were in that House, but
he could not help alluding tothe respective meritsof the Church
of Rome and the Reformed Church. They were long since tried
and the verdict was given against the Church of Rome. That
verdict was that the Church of Rome was superstitious and.
idolatrous. He felt that the Church of England had a refer-
ence to the Church of Rome which it had to no other Church,
for it had come out from the Church of Rome in consequence
of the errors which had crept into the latter. The ancients,
when they pledged their friends, first of all drank themselves
out of the cup, and on the same grounds he could never
think of allowing others to drink of the moral cu
of error which he refused to taste himself.—( Hear.)
He doubted whether the principles of the measure were in con-
sonance with the oath taken by the Sovereign, and he could
not conceive how any Minister could present a Bill for sig-
nature at that Throne which was upheld alone by contradictory
belief. Anticipating that the present was but a commence-
ment of a principle that would result in the endowment of the
Roman Catholic Church, and thus present the anomaly and
the disgrace of a State endowing:two Churches of antagonist
doctrines, because its Government believed none, he should
record his solemn and decided opposition against the Bill,
and thereby redeem his pledge to his country and his God.
With these sentiments he would conclude.
Lord CLIFFORD said, he rose to ask a question of the
Right Rev. Prelate, whether be knew the contents of the bth
Report of the Commissioners of Education?
The Bishop of CASHEL—I do not.
Lord CLIFFORD was of opinion that the Right Rev.
Prelate was therefore not in a position to give a definite
opinion on the subject. He (Lord Clifford) would refer to the
evidence of the Rev. Peter Kenny, one of the order of Jesuits,
given before that Commission, who, on being asked respecting
allegiance to the Pope, stated that their first allegiance was due
to the Sovereign of the country.—( Hear, hear.) After this
he could not see what objection could be urged against the
system of education pursued at Maynooth.
The Earl of WINCHILSE A said it was too late to go
further into the debate that night, but he would engage, on