The Sun.
London, England, 1827-04-04 00:00:00

DEBTORS'

Mr. HUME rose to move, pursuant to the notice which
he had given, that the state of prisoners confined for debt
should be referred to a Select Committee. The Hon.
Member read, from the returns which had been laid upon
the table, the number of persons who were confined for
debt in the King's Bench, Fleet, Whitecross-street, and
Marshalsea prisons, and contended that from these returns
it was fair to consider the average numbers of persons con-
fined for debt at 20 or 22,000. He would subsequently,
show the demoralizing effects which imprisonment pro-
duced upon these unfortunate individuals, and which ma-
nifested themselves as soon as they were again turned loose
into society. He would first, however, upon the authority
of Lord Coke and other eminent individuals, explain to the
House the state of the Law of Arrest in this country. The
Hon. Member then took a review of the Law of Arrest,
and begged to call the attention of the Right Hon. Gentle..
man opposite (Mr. Peel) to the fact, that any person
might procure bail on a charge for a criminal offence for
4s. 6d., while, for a debt of 101., a man could not pro-
cure bail under 31. 6s. at least. The Hon. Member then
proceeded to show the impolicy of imprisonment for debt,
and he mentioned the case of an individual, now in prison,
who, previous to his ,arrest, vested a large sum of money in
the purchase of a freehold estate of some thousands a-year,
on which his family resided, while he lived in prison on
the income derived from his purchase, although bills and
bonds to a considerable amount were out against him. Se-
veral prisoners, now confined in the Fleet and elsewhere,
had defrauded their creditors in the'same way, refusing to
give up any portion of their property for the liquidation of
their just debts, and living in expence and extrava-
vance. Where, then, was the wisdom of continuing laws
so abused and perverted. In other countries there was no
such thing as imprisonment for debt, and he was satisfied
that trade and business of every description might be car-
ried on much better in England if there was no such thing
as an arrest for debt. By a paper on the table of the
House, it appeared that since the formation of the Court
of Insolvent Debtors, 11,617 persons had been liberated
by the Commissioners therein presiding. The gross
amount of the debts which those persons owed came to no
less a sum than 8,863,0001., and the sum actually divided
amongst their creditors was only 4,788/, being at the rate
of about half a, farthing in the pound sterling. The Hon.
Member, after describing the expence of passing through
the Insolvent Debtors' Court, adverted to the Craven-
street Institution for the relief of persons confined for small
debts. By a return from that society, it appeared that
they had liberated up to last year, 42,000 persons, whose
debts were comprised at about 31. each on an average.
The Hon. Member then referred to several reports of
Committees appointed to investigate the Fleet and other
prisons, whose recommendations were never acted on by
the House. There were, it appeared, in,the King's Bench
prison, 192 rooms appropriated for the reception of the
prisoners. A great part of these rooms, however, were
given to individuals :who could *fiord to pay for them.
In 1819, 440 persons were colifined, 80 of whom had
separate rooms. What situation, he would ask, then must
the unfortunate prisoners be in at present, who, in point of
numbers, were nearly double whit they were in 1819 ?
750 persons were at this moment confined within the wails
of this prison,' crowded into close rooms that were not in
any way adequate to their accommodation. The 11°r"
Member then referred to the want of medical attendance rn
those prisons, a neglect which reflected the greatest risi-
ble disgrace on the authorities by whom it was Perrn!tted'
No medical officer had been appointed to the Fleet Prison
until the present year. The
Hog. Gentleman then Rad

an extract from the report of the Prison Committee of
1814, complaining that there was no infirmary in the
Fleet Prison, nor any medical attendants whatever, to ad-
minister to the wants of the prisoners who might require
such assistance. As the case stood in 1814, so it re-
mained at the present day. The recommendations of the
Committee had not been attended to. What he (Mr. IL)
most objected to was, that men and women were confined
in the same galleries. Under this arrangement, if a wo-
man entered prison with the least sense of decency, in a
very short time she must be inevitablyiruined.—(Hear.)—
Night and day must she be exposed to the most debasing
scenes. The committee of 1814 had recommended the
separation of the female from the male prisoners; but the
recommendation had not been adopted, and the prison
might be considered as the largest brothel in the metro-
polis. He (Mr. Hume) had understood that it was the
duty of an officer of the Common Pleas to visit the prison
once a fortnight ; but `upon inquiry of the inmates, he
(Mr. Hume) learned that this officer had not been seen
there till subsequent to the inquest. The Coroner upon
that occasion, when it was attempted to be shown that the
deceased had lost his life through exposure to the air in
walking the galleries, endeavoured to shut out all the evi-
dence he could, observing that it was the system of the
prison which was in fault, and ought to be looked to.—
Neither of the prisons was adapted to the purposes they
were intended for ; idleness was encouraged there, and con-
sequently vice and immorality. He was sorry to have de-
tained the House so long, but he had not detailed half the
facts.—(" No, no.")—He hoped Hon. Members would
not have to experience the truth of this assertion, but there
were some persons pining in imprisonment who once had
better prospects than some members in that House.—(A
laugh.)—He hoped there would be a fellow feeling.—
(Hear.)—He had heard some instances—which he should
not mention through fear of being personal--of individuals
obtaining a seat in the House to secure themselves from im-
prisonment—(Hear).--The Hon. Member concluded by
moving, " that a select Committee be appointed to inquire
into the state of the King's Bench, the Fleet, the Marshal-
sea, Whitecross-street, and Horsemonger-lane prisons, for
the confinement of persons for debt and contempt of court,
and into the arrangements, rules, and regulations, adopted
therein, since the report of 1814 ; and also to consider the
operation of the law in respect to imprisonment for debt,
and to report their opinion to the House, with the evidence
taken before them."
Mr. HOBHOUSE seconded the motion.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL observed that the sub-
ject of imprisonment for debt had occupied the attention of
many humane men and able public writers ; amongst
others, Dr. Johnson, by whom it was regarded as an anti-
social doctrine. Lord Hastings had carried the humane
principle contended for by these writers to the utmost ex-
tent, by the introduction of a permanent insolvent act,
instead of affording periodical relief to debtors. With
respect to the argument of the flon. Member on the sub-
ject of fictitious arrests, the penalty was a prosecution for
perjury. No person could contend that when a civil debt
was sworn to, the debtor ought not to be arrested. Then
the Hon. Member objected to imprisonment after the ver-
dict; so that lie would have no person confined for debt
under any circumstances. Such a system would not suit
a mercantile country like this. No person could abolish
from his mind the impression tlit great suffering was oc-
casioned by imprisonment; but if this punishment were
withdrawn, what would the Hon. Member substitute ?
His (the Attorney-General's) opinion was, that the In-
solvent Debtors' Act gave too great a facility of relief already
—(Hear.) The motion, if carried, would have a mis-
chievous effect ; it was so wide, and the committee would
embrace so much, that no practical benefit could result
from it. With regard to the grounds of complaint respec-
ting the interior of prisons, he (the Attorney-General)
had not heard that any representations had been made to
the Judges. on the subject. At the same time he knew
that great alterations had been made by those learned per-
sonages; and Lord Ellenborough, in particular, had re-
quired the Marshal of the King's Bench, to reside within
the prison. He concluded by saying, that he thought the
Hon. Member had brought the question before the House
in a tangible point of view.

Mr. CALCRAFT thought the Honourable Gentleman
(Mr. Hume) had made out such a case as called for the at-
tention of the House.

Mr. PEEL thought the Honourable Gentleman could
hardly be in earnest in his motion, because the subjects in-
-sluded it iewere so numerous and extensive. He did not
Practicable to'do "aWay with imprison-
ment for debt; nor had the Honourable Gentlenian stated
any of the reasons for which he had formed a contrary
opinion. At least he was sure that the system had the
effect of deterring, by means of the example of imprisoned
.4votstye•-peseemt, lveres incautiously contracting
debts. The inquiries which the Honourable Gentleman
proposed to have made, could not, he thought, be got
at by a Committee. He wished to state that he had
appointed an eminent surgeon (Mr. Cooper) to give
medical assistance gratuitously, where it might be
wanted, in the King's Bench and Fleet prisons, not only on the
common side, but on the master's side, whenever requested.
He must, however, tell the Hon. Member for Montrose, that
he believed he was mistaken in many of the facts he had stated.
He had himself received many letters froM a Mr. Jennings
on this subject, and the inquiries he had caused to be made
in consequence, convinced him that the statements in those
letters were exceedingly exaggerated. On one occasion in
particular, it was stated, that a jury summoned to hold au
inquest in the Fleet prison, had been previously made
drunk. He (Mr. Peel) referred this matter to the Lord
Chief Justice of the Common Pleas, who, upon inquiry,
found that there was not a shadow of foundation for the
charge. With respect to t➢e state of the Fleet Prison, he
believed that at present no effectual attempt could be made
to remedy its condition. If the revenue had been in a
more flourishing condition, he had intended to propose that
a great alteration should have been made in this prison.
The city of London were desirous of having the site on
which the prison stood, and had offered to give a more con-
venient piece of ground for the purpose of building another
prison on. On consultation with his Right Hon. Friend
(the Chancellor of the Exchequer) he had, however, found
that it would be more convenient to postpone the measure
he had contemplated to another year, and lie had, there-
fore, been reluctantly compelled to do so. He had no hesi-
tation in admitting that the system of the King's Bench
prison was extremely defective, and if there was a vacancy
to-morrow in the office of Marshal, he should recommend
its being done away with altogether. He found it difficult
to refuse the inquiry which the Honourable Gentleman had
moved for, and if he would be content to take a Com-
mittee, the object of which should be limited by that of
the former Commission and Committee, he (Mr. Peel) was
.willing to accede to it, trusting to the Hon. Member for
forming his Committee, se at to ensure an impartial inves-
tigation into the subject.
Sir R. WILSON supported the motion.
Mr. JOHN SMITH said that if the Hon. Member for
Montrose (Mr. Hume) went to a division, he (Mr. Smith)
would support it, because he believed the prisons ought
to be inquired into, and the law of arrest, particularly
respecting the frauds practised by means of what are called
sponging-houses. He agreed, however, that both these
subjects ought not to be intrusted to the same Committee.
Mr. Alderman WOOD supported the motion.

Mr. B. MONCK also supported the motion.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL observed, that the great
increase of prisoners might be attributed to the repeal of
an Act of Parliament restricting arrests for debt to 151.__.
That Act expired in 1824, and the old law bad again come
into practice. He proposed, therefore, with the leave of
the House, to bring in a bill for renewing the Act which
had expired.
Mr. D. NV. HARVEY was glad to hear that this was
the intention of the Hon. Gentleman. He hoped that the
Hon. Member (Mr. Hume) would either accept the con-
cession which was made, or withdraw his motion now, and
renew it when it could be better discussed.

Mr. HUME, in reply, would leave the case in the hands
of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Peel), and if he did
not do something on the subject, he (Mr. Hume) would
again call the attention of the House to it.
Mr. KENNEDY moved for leave to bring in a Bill to
regulate parochial settlements in Scotland.
After a few words from Lord BINNING, leave was
given to bring in the Bill.
On the motion of Mr. D. HARVEY, a return was or-
dered of the number of causes which now stand for hearing
before the Lord Chancellor, the Lord Chief Baron, the
Master
allof
Mr. F. BUXTON moved for copies of, or extracts
from,
Govern-
ment, from Governors or other chief officers in our West
Indiacolonies,
respecting any
the
communicationsßolls, and the Vice•Cbancellor.
made to his Majesty's
measures adopted by the
Legislatures of those colonies respectively, on the subject
of negro slavery, setting forth whether those measures
were in compliance with instructions from the Govern-
ment at home or otherwise.
Mr. W. HORTON said, that all which had been re-
ceived, and were not already presented, would be laid be-
fore the House after Easter, by command.
without effect, he was obliged to have re-
Mr. F. BUXTON replied, that having waited so long
for information
course to this motion.

The motion was then agreed to.
Mr..F. BUXTON wished to know when the motions
for which be had asked two veers ago woald be complied
with? One of them was dated in June, 1825 ; and there
were ten others respecting return* from th§ cylonits,

feeting the question of negro slavery, and no answer had
yet been returned. He must observe that the want of
such information had delayed several important measures
on this subject, and if that information were not forthcom-
ing in a short time, he must take his own course to expe-
dite its production.

Mr. W. HORTON would be very glad if the Hon.
Member could point out any course by which the informa-
tion he required could be expedited. All that the Colonial
Office could do, when returns were ordered from the Colo-
nies, was to send out particular instructions to the Go-
vernments that no time might be lost in furnishing the ne-
cessary information. If that was not done within the time
expected he could not help it, but he must observe that
Hon. Members were very prolific of those motions, and
that they could not all be complied with within a very
short time.

The Committee on the Corn Laws was postponed to
Thursday.
The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and
the House adjourned at a Quarter-past One o'Cloek.

ON TUE Saco
Arbuthnot, Hon. H.
Antrobus, G.
Ashurst, W. H.
Alcock, Thomas
Bastard, K P.
Balfour, J.
Bankes, H.
Bell, M.
Buxton, John
Blandford, Marquis
Brudenell Lord
Chandos, Marquis of
Clive, Visct.
Clive, Hon. R.
Clive, Henry
Chaplin, Thos.
Curteis, K J.
Clinton, C. F
Chichester, A.
Davenport, E. D.
Dundas, C.
East, Sir E. H.
Egerton, W.
Fane, John
Foley, E. T.
French, Arthur
Fellows., W.

T OF THE MING]
:OND READING OF TII.
Fleming, John
Gooch, Sir T.
Guise, Sir W.
Gordon, Hon. W.
Gordon, R.
Hay, Lord J.
Harvey, Sir J.
Honywood W. P.
Hotham, Lord
Houldsworth, T.
Heneage, G. F.
Heron, Sir R.
Ingleby, Sir W.
King, Sir J. D.
King, Hon. R.
Kavanah, T.
Lenox, Lord G.
Lopez, Sir M.
Macqueen, T. '
Manners, Lord C.
Maitland, Hon. A.
Maitland, Viscount
Morland, Sir S.
Northcote, H.
Palmer, R.
Pelham, J. C.
Phillips, R.

ITY
CORY BILL.
Pryse, Pryie
Pollen, Sir J.
Pitt, Josh.
Powell, E.
Rickford, W.
Rogers, E.
Smith, C.
Smyth, Sir G. ,
Smith, Hon. R.
Sotheron, Admiral
Sibthorpe, Colonel
Talmash, E.
Tennyson, C.
Uxbridge, Earl of
Vaughan, Sir R.
Wyndham, W.
Wodehouse, Ed.
Western, C. C.
Wood, T.
Wells, J.
Wemyss James
Webb, id.

imu.kas.
Lethbridge, Sir T.
Knatehbull, Sir E.
PAIRED OFF.
Chaplin, Chas.

FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE.

FRENCH PAPERS.
(From the Constitutionnel of Sunday.)

. _
PARIS, Maitcx 31.—1 t would be difficult for us to ex-
press the mournful sensation which the deplorable attempt
against the inanimate remains of the Duke de la Roche-
foucault has produced at Paris. It is asked in every direc-
tion, what horrible madness, what stupid hatred, inspired
the furies of the police ? It appears that a senseless power
has decidedly resolved to pass all bounds of violence, and to
add every day to an indignation, the measure of which
seemed full. Has the law so fixed the celebration of obse-
quies, that no one can derogate from it, without having
bayonets charged against him ? Is it forbidden that we
should carry the dead in our arms to their lest dwelling?
What right has the police to interfere between the tomb and
the tsars of the citizens? What right has it to impose on
families the etiquette of grief and the ceremonial of funeral
homage?

We are assured, to-day, at the opening of the Sitting,
the Duke de Choiseul addressed the Chamber of Peers on
the deplorable scene which passed yesterday at the obse-
quies of the Duke de la Rochefoucault. He required that
M. le Grand Referendaire should give an account of the
facts, in order that the Chamber might be in a state to
appreciate them.
Baron Pasquier, as well as the Duke de Praslin,
ha-
ving supported this proposition, the Chamber, with a con-
vent, which we may regard as unanimous, ordered that
the Grand Referendaire should take all necessary informa-
tions, and as soon as they should be collected, he should
bring them before the Chamber.

"The Neapolitan official journal of March 14th, con-
tains an article which appears to deserve the attention of
our readers. It betrays the tone of the Aulic Chancery.
It is the farewell menace of M. de Metternich to the Nea-
politans. But the menace of an enemy who looks so care-
fully, forward announces fear. Alarmed, on the one hand,
at the noble conduct of Don Pedro towards Portugal, and
his alliance with England ; and, on the other, at the union
of the latter Power with Russia, for the purpose of putting
an end to the sufferings of the Greeks, the Austrian Mi-
nister wishes to play the counterpart of Mr. Canning.—
The latter endeavours to restrain absolute monarchs by the
fear of popular risings; while the former endeavours to
keep down the people by reminding them of the Con-
gresses of Laybach and Verona. But the days of the Con-
gresses of Laybach and Verona are gone by. Constitu-
tions are now granted by Sovereigns. M. de Metternich
in his prophetic terror must have contemplated the King
of Naples, imitating, en finding himself at liberty, the
glorious example of Dou Pedro; and his threat is less di-
rected against the Neapolitans than against the King of
Naples himself, who, in consequence of a remaining por-
tion of deference, has thought himself bound to allow it
to appear in his official Gazette. The following is a literal
translation of this article:—

," We are officially informed, that in pursuance of the
supreme decision of his Imperial and Royal Majesty, the
troops which have quitted the kingdom of Naples will be
provisionally stationed on the line of the Po, in the Lom-
bardo-Venetian territory, independently of the ordinary
garrisons, in such a manner as to form a corps which may
be rendered moveable, should ever circumstances require
it. By this measure of prudence and foresight, all crimi-
nal hope is cut off in those quarters where factious men, if
any still exist, might yet dare to cherish such hopes,
founded on the troubles in Portugal, or on the contest
which is not yet terminated between the Turks and the
Greeks. Whatever may be the issue of these partial oscil-
lations, their Majesties the Emperor of Austria and the
Emperor of Russia (who wishes to rival in glory his pre-
decessor, the Emperor Alexander, and to prove himself
faithful to his principles of anti-revolutionary policy), firm
in the principles sanctioned by the Congresses of Laybach
and Verona, will continue to provide with their accus-
turned energy and solicitude against any attempt or the
genius of innovation to exercise an influence detrimental to
the tranquillity and peace of Europe.'
" Here it will be seen that Austria chooses to speak in
the name of the Emperor of Austria, and disdains any asso-
ciation with the King, who must not, any more than his
subjects, allow himself to be influenced by the genius of in-
novation. It appears, however, that the King of Naples
begins to have an idea of his own power, and to feel that
these menaces are only vain words, for he has not allowed a
hint to appear in the official journal of his future intentions.
He is doubtless aware that the day of reform may also come
for his country." _

(From the Etoile, dated Monday, April 2.)
" Pious, APRIL 1.-As we expected, the journals of
of the body to the barrier, all
n
the faction have not failed to represent to their readers in
the fullest light the disorder that took place at the funeral
of the Duke de la Rochefoucault. If we believe them, the
disorder was caused by this public authorities. If they had
not opposed the carrying
would have passed with the same decorum as at the inter-
szfne tr
suffering of
the b
Generalnd yFtooy
be carried
de
G i
nra r
men'sdin,
&C,
shoulders from the
; and why, after
house of the deceased to the church, why did they forbid its
being carried in the same manner to the barrier?
" A few words will answer these allegations and that
question. The following are the facts
" It is true that the body was carried to the church on
men's shoulders. This mode is tolerated by the Adminis-
tration, on the application of the family, where the house
of the deceased is not too remote, because, in general, the
relations themselves walk on foot so far after the coffin, even
when it is placed in the hearse. The Administration had
therefore no reason to refuse the same permission on the
occasion in question.
" But the regulations prescribe that from the church to
the place of sepulture the corpse shall be conveyed in a
carriage. It is useless to relate here all the grounds for
this Wise precaution, which philanthropy has rendered
general for all classes of inhabitants. To desire that the
body of the Duke de la Rochefoucault should not be con-
veyed in the same manner, was desiring a deviation from
the general regulations, and this deviation could not take
Place without previous consent of the authorities on the
application of the family of the deceased.
" Now, on this occasion, the authorities had thought it
proper to confer previously with the family ; and in the
vestry, the Commissary of Police, seeing before him the
train, consisting of persons invested with the highest dig-
nities, who accompanied the funeral, and the deputations
of the most eminent public bodies, which had agreed with
the relatives of the deceased that the coffin should be re-
placed on the hearse, in order that the procession and these
deputations might not be obliged to go on foot and in the
rain all the day from the church to the barrier of Clichy,
orders were accordingly given ; the procession in conse-
quence left the church, and the coffin was placed on the
hearse.

from the
~ It was at this moment that a troop of young men P"-
cipitated themselves on the coffin, and snatched
iatt ed with
bearers. In vain the Commissary remtliTteroilin on the
them ; in vain he ordered them to
carriage. Ilia voice was disregerfetireP'
h was closed to oppose
drew up before the iron gate,
employed ; the troops broke
their passage. Violenceedwa.and these young men carried
through, the gate OP°l!..
fn Thus separated from the hearse,
into the streets the co,, imite,
ouch An Act of violAnce And
tits family, and the 4tl uu place
in
vain the troops

rebellion could not be tolerated ; and accordingly the 01_,'
i peror officers then took those measures which the lib&
journals represent as arbitrary, and the result of which Wl'
that the coffin was replaced on the hearse.
" The Constitutionnel pretends that the Ministry svi4Y
ed to deprive the tomb of the Duke de Liancourt of the
honours decreed by public gratitude.
ask, in our turn, if public gratitude has no otlief
mode of manifesting itself, and what respect the meteor!
of him receives whom strangers, without any authority''
thus convey in a tumultuous manner at the risk of disturb'l
ing public order and tranquillity, and the respect &it'll
the deceased?

" We know very well that General Foy and M. dpi
Girardin were borne in the same manner ; but, besides 030
this was also done by strangers evidently instituted fron
the persons regularly employed in funeral processions, ore
know likewise that before them many others had bee°
borne in the same manner, and not to speak of the .13.0.
theoses of the revolution which this mode of conveyance
disagreeably calla to mind, is it forgotten what happen"
after the death of Philipe the actor, whose coffin W 5
abandoned in one of the lower sides of the Boulevard ?
These momentary disorders may be to the taste of the
friends of the sovereignty of the people, but undoubteo
they will never meet the approbation of the friends of in°'
narchy, of order, and of morality; for, in fine, if we oil
nit the principle that the populace may seize the coffin °
the man on whom they have for the moment placed their
affection, and bear it on their shoulders to the place of °e:i
pulture, we must also admit that it would have an Ow
right to seize the dead body of the man who should moll
them for the moment, worthy of their hate, to dispose °
it as they might think fit."

ADDITIONAL ARTICLE TO THE CONVENTIOS
BETWEEN HIS MAJESTY AND HER ROYAL HIGHNESS THE INFO%
REGENT OF PORTUGAL, FOR PROVIDING FOR THE HAINTENAji,„
OF A CORPS OF BRITISH TROOPS SENT TO PORTUGAL DEC.
SIGNED ALT BRIGHTHELHSTONE, JAN. 19, 1827.

"It is understood and agreed, that the last paragraphd
the Article VI. of the Convention between her BA „Y
Highness the Infanta Regent of Portugal and his Britanew
Majesty, signed at Brighthelmstone on the 19th January'
1827, beginning in Portuguese with the words, ' 0 (0
rerno Portuguez,' and in English with the words,
0.,
rangements shall be made,' is 'applicable only to th
Officers of the Portuguese Government, who may real
in the fortresses of St. Julien or Bugie, the British Cole,
mauder having otherwise no interference whatever with tly
Custom House or Police of the harbour of Lisbon.
" The present additional article shall have the same forte
and validity as if it were inserted word for word in the con'
vention aforesaid. It ahall be ratified, and the ratificatioo
exchanged as soon "as possible.
"In witness whereof, the respective Planipotentiatief
have signed the same, and have thereunto affixed theiC
seals of arms.
"Done at London the 13th day of March, in the yeel'i
our Lord One Thousand Eight Hundred and Twenty-sever)
(L. S.) "GEORGE CANNING.
(L. S.) "MARQUESS DE PALMELLA."