The Sun.
London, England, 1842-04-12 00:00:00

in which the decisions of the two tribunals had
• differed, nor could his Noble and Learned Friend
point
out one instance in which such a
thing had occurred. Suppose this measure were passed,
the infallible result would be that there might be a
Chancellor who had never been in a Court of Equity in
his life—would an appeal under such circumstances be
satisfactory ? An appeal from a Judge accustomed to
i equity all his life ; high in talent, and sound in judg-
ment ? The appeal under such circumstances must be
most unsatisfactory.—(Hear, hear.) Such were the ob-
servations he had to make on this measure ; he thought
it unwise in the extreme, and though he had heard many
strange propositions for amending various laws and cus-
toms of that House, he must say that he thought the
proposition of his Noble and Learned Friend was more
extravagant, and more objectionable, than any that had.
hitherto come under the attention of their Lordships.
_.He moved, therefore, that this Bill be rend a second time
this day six months.
Lord BROUGHAINI did not think it necessary on this
occasion to add any thing to what he had said in
the course of previous discussions on the Bill. But on
referring to some cases in which there had been a vari-
ance between the Committee of the Privy Council and
the Courts below, he believed it would be found that the
judgments of the House 'of Lords and the Privy Council
did not conflict so much as his Noble and Learned
Friend (Lord Campbell) supposed. He (Lord Brougham)
had once proposed a measure at the end of the session of
1834, which had been referred to by his Noble and
Learned Friend, who had stated that that Bill wasfor the
purpose of transferring the business of that House to the
Judicial Committee. This was not a correct representation.
It was not to transfer the appellate jurisdiction at all
from that House, but it was for the purpose of enabling
that House to avail itself of the help of the Judicial Com-
mittee auxiliary to the decision of the House. His ob-
jection to the plan of his Noble and Learned Friend
was that it excluded any Judge, unless he were a Peer
of Parliament. He should certainly oppose the measure,
for he did not think it was at all calculated to improve
the Court to which it referred.

against the tax, but nothing could be more distinctly
expressed than his opinion, that if it had been, he should
have considered it his duty to have resisted the petition.
Now, Sir, the only two days out of the seven, which
her Majesty Government has for the consideration of
those measures which are brought forward are Mon-
day and Friday. These are days supposed to be set
apart for the convenience of her Majesty's Government,
but in point of fact it is for the convenience of the
public. It is a matter of perfect indifference, I need
scarcely tell the House, in what. mode I occupy the
eight hours—this is to me a matter of perfect indiffe-
rence. But the two days which - are devoted
to the business of the Government are not
days set apart for the private convenience of
her Majesty's Ministers ; they are days only on which
her Majesty's Government can take precedence for their
measures. It is well known that upon Tuesday, Wed-
nesday, and Thursday, other business may be inter-
posed-between the business of the Government, accord-
ing to the discretion of individual Members. I know
the Members of the House of Commons may,
at any time, prolong the proceedings of the House by
moving adjournments ; yet still I have that confidence in
the disposition of the House of Lords, and in the
desire of individual Members to consult the public
interest, that I believe no unfair use will be made
of this privilege for the purpose of obstructing the pro-
gress or business •in the House. Yet it is quite clear
that if petitions may be presented with respect to taxes
under the consideration of the House, and if these peti-
tions may be debated—(Hear, hear, from the Opposition
benches)—in that case it would be quite impos-;
sible to proceed with the public business. A most
material obstruction might be offered. lam not speak-
ing of the present time, but you may conceive cases of
imminent wars, in which it would be absolutely necessary
to raise immediate supplies for the public service—you
may conceive such cases as that referred to by Mr. Hat-
sell ; similar events might again occur, and the
public business might be most seriously affected
under such circumstances by the presentation of a vast
number of petitions But it is said that we have lately
departed from ancient practice, and that Members are
now excluded from debating petitions. That restriction,
however, is not the consequence of a resolution which
would at all times be binding on the House. The
resolution that petitions are not to be debated, is not
binding, I apprehend, beyond the Session in which it
is passed. In cases of Standing Orders, it would, no
doubt be competent to the Speaker to interfere at any time,
to prevent debates in violation of a Standing Order., But
in the case of a mere resolution—the resolution I repeat
has no force beyond the existing session. Consequently
I apprehend the prevention of debates rests very much
on the same footing with the refusal to receive petitions.
It it founded on a sense of public convenience,
and is fo:eitied,- by usage. Now, in the one
case, I find a usage_ of one hundred and fifty years,
and in the other easel find a usage of five years. The
one case rests not upon the Standing Orders, but on
what is called a rule founded on practice; while the other
regulation, I apprehend, rests upon a different autho-
rity. It is certainly in the power of the House
to repeal any rule or resolution of the Heuse.. I am quite
aware of the position in which I stand in the present in-
stance. Ido not at all deny that I have reason to believe
that my opinions upon this subject are not those which
universally prevail. lat on e admit that it is very unpopular
to oppose. the presentation of petitions. It appears to be
unpopular. As I said before, I have no personal interest
in the matter ; but, at the same time, I know not how
a man can properly discharge his duty if he abstain
from pressing on this House what he believes to be,
most consonant, on the whole, with the public interest.
I think it my duty to submit my opinions fairly to the
House of Commons, and to take their decision upon the
subject, and not at once to assume that a practice
of 150 years' standing, should be unhesitatingly repealed.
I must therefore persevere in resisting this attempt. The
House on the last occasion determined that they would
not depart from the usual practice, and their refusal to
receive petitions against taxes rested precisely on the
same footing as the present motion. Finding myself in
one case fortified by the usage of 150 years, in another
case fortified only by the usage of five, I feel strongly
the inconvenience of now establishing a precedent which
in times of greater difficulty might be appealed
to for the purpose of embarrassing the public service ;
and I must, in compliance with what I feel to be a sense
of duty, continue to offer my resistance to the motion of
the Hon. Gentleman. In doing that Ido not conceal
from myself the power which he and others possess of
offering petitions and provoking debate, and that, no
doubt, is a power which may subject the House to greater
inconvenience than would follow from receiving the
petitions.—(Cries of " Hear, hear," from the Oppo-
sition benches.) But feeling myself right in the objection
which I take, I must look to ultimate results, I leave
them to exercise their power. I cannot consent to give
up that which has been the practice of the House fur so
long a period, and I must therefore offer my opposition
to theenotion of the Hon. Gentleman.
Lord HOWICK said he could assure the Right Hon.
Baronet that he agreed with him in his respect for the
forms and usages of the House, but he did not think
their admiration for those forms and usages—admirable in
general, as experience had shown them to be—ought
to be a blind and unreasonable one. He thought they
were bound in all cases to see whether the reason upon
which the existing practice and usage was founded, still
existed, and still applied.—(Hear, hear.) If that reason
did exist, if the grounds on which the practice was
originally established were not removed, then he be-
lieved it would generally be found to be the soundest
wisdom to adhere to it.—(Hear, hear.) Bt if circum-
stances were changed, if the reasons upon which the
usage originally rested no longer applied. then he
thought they would act Much more wisely in making that
usage conform to the change of circumstances which had
taken place since it was first established.—(Hear, hear.)
Now, he thought it was shown most clearly on a former
evening, by his two Right Hon. Friends, the Members
for Bduiburgh and Devonport, that the grounds upon
which this practice was originally established no longer
existed ; that the change which had taken place in the
mode of receiving petitions had removed those grounds;
and that since the new mode had been adopted it was im-
possible that any conceivable number of petitions could
interfere with the progress of public business.—(l.lear.)
And here he could not help saying that he entirely con-
curred with the Right Hon. Baronet in attaching the
greatest importance to the preservation of the rule and
practice of the House, by which the hours of public
business on Monday arid on Friday were reserved for
the business which was under the charge of her Majesty's
Government, because, after all, that was the business of
the country; and, as the Right Hon. Baronet had truly
stated, it was not for the convenience of her Majesty's
Government so much as it was for the general advantage
of the country, that consideration should be given to
those great questions of general policy which the
Government might bring under their notice.—(Hear.)
It was to him demonstrated beyond all form of doubt,
that the reception of those petitions could in no re-
spect tend to interfere with the rule of speaking on
petitions. On the contrary the maintenance of that rule,
as his Right Hon. Friend had clearly shown, would have
an opposite effect. -It was the maintenance of the rule,
and not its change, which would prevent the time of
the House being taken up. That would be the case, and
what they were now debating showed that it would be
so.—(Hear, hear.) They were going to divide on the
motion of his Hon. Friend, the Member for Finsbury, on
bringing up a petition ; but supposing his motion was
negatived, he could bring up to-morrow another petition
and, make a similar motioh—(Hear)—and every Hon.
Member might take the sauce course, and they might
do so as his Right Hon. Friend had shown when the
House went into 'a Committee of Supply, or. upon a mea-
sure regarding taxation. In every question of proceed-
ing with the Orders of the Day, and on questions of supply,
or taxation every lion. Member entrusted with a petition
might get up and state its substance, the number of per-
sons who signed it, and the opinions expressed by the
petitioners; and he asked any Hon. Gentleman who had
a short experience of the mode of doing - busi-
ness in the House, whether that practice would
not interfere much more with the transaction
of public business, than a change of the old rule
The Right Hon. Gentleman said that the receipt ofpeti-
Lions would interfere with the imposition of a tax, even
in cases where it was most necessary, if allowed to be
debated, and that the present rule presses on the same
ground, and existed 150 years, but if he (Lord Holvick)
was not mistaken no direct and formal resolution .of the
house on the subject of not receiving petitions referring
to taxation showed any rule with respect to the prevent-
ing of debates. The distinction between them was, that
the one rule of the House was obviously essential to the
due conducting of the public business, and the other was
not. The rule which prevented debates on the presenting
of petitions, which were so numerous that the public
business could not be got through, if allowed to be de-
bated, would, he believed, be considered necessary by
nine-tenths of the House, while the other rule was, in
their opinion, unnecessary, and therefore that the one
rule ought to be maintained, while the other ought not.
But when he found that after havingconsiderecl the sub-
ject for two days—after the adjournment of the question
from Friday last, fur the purpose, of enabling the Right
Hon. Baronet and the Government to determine on the
course they might deem it expedient to adopt--when
after such a delay he found that the Right
Honourable Baronet, with all his experience, and
with all his power of stating most forcibly to
the House the arguments by which he had been led
to recommend the adoption of any particular course—
(Cheers)—when he found that the Right Hon. Baronet
had no one reason to allege against the change which

Lord CAMPBELL was not in the slightest degree
changed in the opinion he had formed, and, in conse-
quence of which he had introduced this measure.
The evils complained of, he was convinced, could
only be remedied in the manner he had proposed.
His Noble Friend must have been aware that the clause
which he had introduced was solely in order to prevent
the multiplication of Judges. But his Noble Friend said
that he had not brought a charge against the Judicial
Committee, who had done their duty in a most exem-
plary manner. No ; he did not mean to find any fault
with the members of that Committee, personally or in-
dividually ; but he did say, that as a body, they were not
competent to the duties which they had to perform.
His Noble and Learned Friend not having been able to
show the necessity for two tribunals, or that there would
be any disadvantage in coalescing these tribunals, though
he could crush these Bills by a majority, he had not de-
feated the principle, and he (Lord Campbell) hoped that
the measure would at another time meet with a
better fate.— (Hear, hear.) it was a well-known
anecdote that the best speeches for and against the
Prisoner's Counsel Bill were made by his Noble and
Learned Friend ; his Noble and Learned Friend had
also exerted his powers of eloquence in favour of and
against various other Bills which had at last been
'carried, mainly owinr, to his efforts; he (Lord (Camp-
bell) hoped that such would be the case at some future
time with this measure. He begged to wi:hdraw his
motion.

After a few words from Lord BROUGHAM,
The Duke of WELLINGTON called the attention
of the House to the important functions belonging to
the office of the Lord Chancellor of this great empire ;
besides that of presiding in the Court of Chancery ; and
he trusted that in any Bill which should be brought in,
in a future Session, there shOuld be a clause to secure
that the person selected to sit on the Woolsack in their
Lordships' House should be a barrister of at least fifteen
years' standing,

- Lord CAMPBELL said that there was not at present
any law to require that the person► selected to fill the
office of Lord Chancellor should be a. barrister at all.
For centuries the office had been tilled by ecclesiastic►d
individuals, down to the time of Queen Elizabeth, when
Sir Thomas Moore was appointed—the first lay Lord
Chancellor for several reigns.
The Amendment of the Lord Chancellor that the Bill
be read a second time this day six months, was carried
without a division, and the House adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, APRIL 11.
The SPEAKER took the chair.
WIGAN ELECTION.
Mr. HAWES brought up the Report of the Wigan
Election Copunittae, which declared that Mr. Greenhall
was duly elected, that Mr. Cross was not duly elected,
and that Mr. Charles Standish ought to have been re-
turned.

GREAT MARLOW ELECTION.
Sir J. Y. BULLER brought up the Report of the
Great Marlow Election Committee, which declared that
Sir-William Clayton was not duly elected, and that Mr.
Wynn Hampden was duly elected, and ought to have
been returned.
BELFAST AND CAVEHILL RAILWAY BILL.
On the motion of Mr. O'CONNELL, this Bill was read
a second time.
NATIONAL EDUCATION (IRELAND).
Mr. FITZROY presented a petition from Down
against the system or. National Education in Ireland, and
in favour of that of the Church Education Society.
A petition te the same effect was presented by Mr. E.
TEN.NENT, from the congregation of Christ Church,
Belfast.
Captain HAMILTON presented a petition from
Aylesbury against the Dog-cart Nuisance in the country,
THE TARIFF.
Mr. GREENE presented a petition from the curriers,
leather cutters, and other persons in Manchester, against
the proposed alteration of the duty on leather.
Captain BERKELEY presented a petition from Glou-
cester to the same effect.
Sir R. FERGUSSON presented a petition from the
provision traders of Londonderry against the proposed
alterations in the tariff.
Lord F. EGERTON presented a petition from the
merchants and traders of Manchester, signed by 24,000
persons, in favour of the financial measures of the Go-
vernment, and praying the House to adopt them as
speedily as possible.—(dear.)
Mr. F. FRENCH presented a petition from Roscom-
mon against the Government measures, and stating that
since they were proposed the value of property in that
country had fallen 25 per cent.—(Cheers.)
An Hox. MEMBER presented a petition from Shields,
against the export duty upon coal.
WAKEYHLLL INCLOSURE.
Mr. WAKLEY presented a petition from various
poor persons residing in the county of Southampton,
against the Wakeyhill Inclosure Bill. They stated that
a similar Bill had been brought forward in 1834, which was
successfully opposed, but that they had been put to great
expense in so doing. He represented that the present
Bill was got up by the rich farmers and landowners in
that neighbourhood, and that it was an encroachment
on the rights of the poor, and they prayed the House
not to consent to the Bill.
Lord 110 WICK presented a petition from a number
of the collieries in the county of Durham, against the
proposed impost of 4s. per ton on the exportation of
coals.

hadbeen proposed, except that it a change—(Cheers)
—he (Lord Howick) could have no hesitation whatever
as to the vote which he ought to give.—(Cheers.) He felt

that the Right lion. Baronet lad stated the case to
the House temperately and fairly—(Cheer9—at the
same time he regretted exceedingly the course which the
Right Hon. B.:ronet had thought it his duty to adopt.
Mr. M. MILNES rose amidst loud cries of " (dues-
tion, question." The Hon. Gentleman said that it was
only by considering qUestioris of privilege as distinct from
party questions, that their privileges could be maintained.
It had only been by se considering the question of pri-
vilege, that they had been enabled to come to an adjust-
ment of the question of privilege two years since. It
he regarded this question solely as a question of the pri- '
-vileges of Parliament, he might vote ter the proposition
of the Hon. Member for Finsbury, did he not anticipate
that by acceding to the motion he might run the risk of
bringinf, into disrespect the petitions of the country. He
knew that generally speakinf, questions regarding tax-
ation passed unauimously—(Luud laughter)—except
on particular . occasions.—(Continued laughter.) It
was not generally considered fair or just to deny
Money when the necessities of the country required it,
except under peculiar circumstances.—(Cheers and
laughter.) Now if they received these petitions they
would run the risk of the people of this country getting
into the habit of petitioning against taxation.—(Roars
of laughter.) There was no doubt but that such a habit
might be easily got into—(Continued la,ghter)—and a
case might well occur in which the House having unani-
mously voted a tax, an enormous body of petitions from

the people of England might be presented against it.
The consequence would be that the detsion of the House
on subjects of taxation would be brought into disrespect—
(Loud cheers from the Opposition)—and a notion would
get abroad that this House did nut fairly represent the
opinions of the people.—(lmmenss cheering from the
Opposition benches.) He (Mr. Milnes) could not help
thinking that the Hon. Member for Finsbury had
some notion of the kind in his head when he brought
forward the present motion, and that his object was not
only to annoy the Government for the time being, but
to render the people discontented with the constitution of
the House. He, therefore, called upon all Members who
were satisfied with the constitution of the House, to
consider if it would be wise to abandon what had so long
been the constitution of the .House.—(Cheering.)
He did not care much for the prescription of 150 years,
if there was a good opportunity for repealing that pre-
scription. But after ten years, if a Government avow-
edly popular, which had never raised the question, nor
remedied this great and glaring abuse—after all these op-
portunities had been missed, now when a tax
was imposed that he bel:eved would lead to
fewer petitions from the people of England—that
was confessed to be the most equal that was
ever proposed—(Laughter)—he thought it strange that
they should choose this particular time and moment for
the repeal of a prescription of 16.0 years. He hoped they
would not look at this as a party question.
Mr. HENRY BERKELEY said he was loathe to
trespass upon the House, but felt it his imperative duty
to do so. He held in his hand. a requisition, signed by
nearly a thousand of his constituents—(Hear)—and he
was aware that a similar one had.been presented to his
Hon. Colleague—entreating them to do that whicji the
people were precluded from doing, raising their voices
against the odious income tax.—(Hear.) It was not for
him to say what would be the course of his Hon. Col-
league, but for himself he felt it to be his duty to speak
the voice of his constituents on this occasion. He agreed
with them when they expressed their utter disapproba-
tion of the proposed tax—(Hear, . hear)—and their dis-
gust at the chicaner4- which had kept the people in
norance of it until it was too late to petition.—(Hear,
hear.) Under these circumstances, he felt it to be his
duty- to express the opinions el' his constituents, when
they could not, and he should vote with his Hon.
Friend the Member for Finsbury. He looked upon the
right of petition as one of the most valuable privileges
the people had, and particularly when the purses of the
people were so heavily- assailed, by a heavy and unpre-
-cedented impost in time of peace,- did he think that
right should be maintained.—(Hear.)
Lord F. EGERTON thought it would be impossible
to conduct the proceedings of any Government, if they
were to depart in- any sensible degree from the rule,
whether established by resolution or otherwise, against
the discussion of' petitions. But he could not do otherwise
than concur in the reasons for throwing open as widely
as possible the doors of this House to the petitions
of the people, as far as the necessities of the Go-
vernment and the Legislature would permit. He
confessed he should vote on the question with much
greater readiness if he could see any likelihood, under
the sanction of the Speaker, that the practice of this
Houo, with regard to the presentation of petitions and
the restriction of debate, could be evinced by some
more formal proceeding than had yet been been taken.
The question being simply one whether this petition
should be presented or not, he could not, with whatem er
reluctance he might differ with his Right Hon. Friend,
but vote vtith the Hon. Member opposite.—(Hear.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL begged to call the attention
of the Noble Lord and the House to what had occum d
in the early part of the session, when the ques-
tion was brought before the House, when it was
stated by the Speaker:the more formal way or proceed-
ing would be to move that the resolution of 18a9 be re-
scinded. In laying down that mode of proceeding, he
believed the Speaker was acting according to the forms of
the House; and he (Lord J. Russell) had no doubt that in
conformity with reason such ought to be the form of the mo-
tion; because if any other course was adopted, they would
have a resolution standing on the Journals of that House
to which they would be acting contrary, not having
rescinded it. On this motion, the question being put,
there appeared Ayes 50, Noes 237. He would now
allude to the objections stated by the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman, and he begged to say a few words on the ques-
tion himself. The Hon. Gentleman had asked why the
late Government had not proposed this reception of
petitions ? But it was because he had agreed with
the . conduct of the late Government that he gave
his support to the reception of this petition.
What had been the practice of their ancestors ?
did not, like the lion. Gentleman who spoke last, hold
himself indifferent to the practice of 150 years, nor
was it without great reflection and strong argument
that he should be ready 'to overturn so long
a practice. The practice used .to be to throw the
doors of the House open to petitions, to let them be
received, the substance of them stated, and to let other
Members debate them. When the grounds of the petition
were fairly before the House., if it were necessary that
the time of the House should be occupied with the dis•
cussien of those petitions, they were debated. But it
had been said that on one particular subject, the en•
actment of taxes, this 'extreme liberty was incon-
venient. But what had Jhey said ? Had they
concurred with their masters in this question of
the discussion of petitions ? By no means. They had
found the practice would leed to serious inconvenience,
and therefore put a stop to it, and made other rules with
respect to the presentation ofpetitions, resolving that Mem-
bers presenting petitions should confine themselves to the
subject of them, and also prevent other Alembers
from speaking on them. Should they depart
from the rule in this respect and keep it up only
for the seke of restriction, and should they insist
on the wisdom of their ancestors, only when that wisdom
would lead to the restriction of the presentation of
petitions ? He could not take that one-sided view of the
question. The Hon. Member said it had been usual to vote
taxes unanimously. He believed very few Chancellors
of the Exchequer would be disposed to agree with him
in that opinion. The House would recollect that there
was nothing in the forms of the House to prevent petitions
being presented against taxes, which had been already
in existence. If they voted the income tax this year,
any number of petitions might be presented
next year against it. This was an inconsistency.
He hoped the House would admit this petition,
as well as every other one properly worded.
Mr. S. WORTLEY said that he was desirous of saying
a few words on the subject under discussion, inasmuch
as he was one of those who had supported the opposition
of his Right lion. Friend the First Lord of the Treasury,
on 'a former evening, to the
proposal of the
Honourable Member fur Finsbury. 116 wished
to remind the House that the question as it seemed
to him before the House was not precisely the same
as that on which they had to decide on the former oc-
casion. The Hon. Member for Finsbury had moved
the other evening that the practice of the House should
be discontinued which forbad the reception of the
petition against ft tax under the consideration of the
House. Now he (Mr. S. Wortlev) so far concurred
with his Right Honourable Friend, that he did not
feel prepared to vote for the discontinuance of
a practice which had been established so many years.
He thought that that was a reasonable objection to the
former motion of the Hon. Member for Finsbury, because.
he could conceive cases of pressing. emergency, in which
it would be desirable to enforce the practice which had
been so long in existence of not receiving peti-
tions against a tax under the consideration of the
House. But, at the same time, now that they
were called upon to receive a petition against an income.
tax, he owned that he doubted whether they would be
justified in enforcing the rule in that particular instance.
They had been told by his Right Hon. Friend at the
head of the Government that the income tax was to be
made part of a series of measures ; and he (Mr. S.
Wortley) thought it could scarcely be called a
tax imposed merely for the service of the pre-
sent year. He did not think that the remarks
of Mr. Hatsell applied to such a case as the present, and
it was but just that a penal regulation should be as
limited as possible in the construction put upon it by the
House. Looking to the particular case before them,
and ,looking also to the practice MIA had prevailed in
this very session, he did not feel that he would be jus-
tified in opposing the motion of the Hon. Member for
Finsbiry. He believed that it appeared in the Appendix
to the Votes for that day, theta petition had been pre-
sented against the poll tax, which was, more strictly than
the income tax, a tax for the service of the year.
The Riedit Honourable Baronet made a distinction the
other night, which was perfectly valid, when he said
that this usage should be applied to cases where it was
proposed to raise supplies for the year, and not to cases
in which it was proposed to raise them for commercial
purposes. On the whole he felt himself bound to vote
against the Right Hon. Baronet on the present occasion.
Sir J. GRAHAM said he could not understand the
distinction which had been drawn by his Right
Honourable Friend the. Member for the West
Riding of Yorkshire, . but - it was quite clear
that he intended to vote against what lied been
the usage of the House for 150 years. He (Sir James
Graham) would not trouble the House with any declara-
tion of his sincere respect for the general right of the
subject to petition; but on the Other hand he could not
conceal from himself the vast importance of respecting a
usage which bore date from the period of the Revolution,
when the rights and liberties of the people of this coun-
try had been so nobly vindicated' and so recently trium-
phant. For 150 years, upon grounds which were
clearly intelligible, this usage had been uninter-
rupted. It was quite true that it was accompa-
nied with right of speech,' but all the constitutional
authorities agreed in stating, that had the practice been
to receive petitions it would be impossible for the ser-
vants of the Crown to carry through that House any Tax
Bill which might be unpopular—and it was the usual
fate of Tax Bills to be unpopular.—(Hear, hear.) He,
(Sir James Graham) could not therefore confine
his view to the narrow circumstances of the
present moment—(Heal., hear, hear)—but as a
servant of the Crown, it was his duty to consider what
would be the effect of the first departure from the
established usage.—(Hear, hear, hear.) He found
the invaluable and inalienable right of the people
to present petitions restricted in the peculiar case
progresstoisfagteheof:iruaiun,
Parliament,
a Tax Bill through Parliament.
It' this House departed from the ancient and established
which restricted the right of the
presentation of petitions during the proaTess of a •
Fax Bill, supposing, in any future' Parliament,
the more ancient practice should be broken through,
and the modern usage resumed of presenting petitions
against Tax Bills, he then felt that the power
of the Crown, in cases of great emergency,
on which the fate of this country might depena,
was gone—the power of the Crown surrendered up by
the present servants of her Majesty. That was a re-
sponeibility which he for one was not prepared to incur ;
and Viking the most dispassionate view 'of the
question, without reference to present circumstances,
but to what he believed to be the interest of the country
and the prerogative of the CroWn, he considered it is-
consistent with his sense of duty—of the weight

of that responsibility. He should, therefore, without
hesitation, give his vote against the motion of the Hon.
Gentleman.
Lord J. MANNERS said that the Right Hon. Baro-
net had appealed to the House to vote in accordance
with the principles of theßevolution, soon after which this
rule had been established. Those Hon. Gentlemen who
esteemed Revolutions in general might vote with the
Right Hon. Baronet, but for his own part he must say that
if the value of the rule was to be estimated according to
the value of the RevolUtion it was very little worth indeed.
Captain HAMILTON rose amidst loud cries of " Di-
vide, divide." He said he would not detain the House for
any length of time. On the last occasion he stated the
general grounds of his opposing the motion of his
lion. Friend the Member for Finsbury, and though
it appeared to him from the state of the House
that he was going to be in a minority, he would not on
that account change his' opinion on the subject. He
would now come to the question before the House, and
to the petition; and whose petition was it ? It was the
petition of the lawyers and gentlemen of Finsbury.
He allowed their petition was entitled to the considera-
tion of the House, but he would again repeat that it was
not. to be considered as the petition of the people ssene-
rally— (Cries of Question," and " Oh, oh") —but of
the unproductive classes; and, therefore, he would not
consent that the rule of the House should be departed
from.—(Cries of "Divide. divide.")
Lord SANDON would not long detain the Hoese ;
.but having yoted with the majority on the former occa-
sion, he wished to say that he would also now vote
against the motion of the Hon. Member. After the expe-
rience which they had of the inconvenience that arosefrom
Hon. Gentlemen being allowed to speak on petitions, he
could not vote for the present motion till he had similar
security that the departure from the rule in the
present instance would not be attended with simi-
lar inconvenience, and lead to the same result.
The CHANCELLOR of the 'EXCHEQUER wished
merely to observe upon one point, of the question
before them. If the House assented to the present motion,
they would be placed in a most inconvenient and extra-
ordinary position. If Hon. Gentlemen wished to alter a
practice of 150 years' standing, it was perfectly competent
to propose a resolution for the purpose of doing so. That
course had been taken on Thursday last, and
the House had decided that it would not depart from
the practice of 150 years—(Hear)—and yet, on
looking at the Journals of the House, he found, within
one week after that decision, a motion made to
receive a petition, not only contrary to the practice
which had been adopted for a hundred and fifty years,
but in direct opposition to the resolution by which that
practice had been confirmed only on Thursday last. For
that reason alone, if there were no other, he should feel
bound to vote against the motion of the Hon. Member
for Finsbury.
Mr. T. DUNCO:',IBE had no hesitation in de-
claring it to be his intention to do every thing in
his power to break down, if possible, the unconsti-
tutional barrier which had been interposed- between the
people and their inalienable right—(Loud cheers)—
the right of petitioning the House against a tax.—
(Loud cheers.) He was surprised, after having consented
to the adjournment in order to give Hon. Gentlemen op-
posite time to prepare themselves, that they should have
come down with no better arguments than that the
practice had subsisted for 150 years.—(Cheers.) Unin-
terruptedly, the Right Hon. Baronet said. He (Mr.
D.) had attempted to prove to the House that the
practice had not been uninterrupted, and he was sick of
repeating that the practice had very frequently been in-
terrupted.—(Hear, hear.) But admitting, for argument's
sake, that the practice hAd been uninterrupted, still
no length of time could sanction injustice.—( Loud cheers.)
And it was injustice to refuse to receive the
petitions of the people, on questions affecting
their pecuniary interests.—(Hear, and loud cheers.)
But suppose the Right Hon. Baronet to succeed in re-
jecting this petition to-day, how much further would he
be advanced?—(Cheers.) To-morrow he would have to
fight the same battle over again.—(Continued cheering.)
The bold and proper measure to pursue would be for the
Right Hon. Gentleman to come down to the House, and
propose the Standing Order to reject the petition. If
he did not do so he would have to fight the fight
day after day. The Right Hon Gentleman said his tax
was popular. He had taunted them (the Opposition) by
asking where was their explosion? Why, they had refused
to receive . the petitions of the ' people, they had
bound them hand and foot, and then asked
why they did not move. They had' gagged them, and
asked why they did not speak.—(Loud cheers.)
The Right Hon. Gentleman Would be beat at last. He
(Mr. T. Duncombe) would persevere day 'after day, when
petitions were sent to hiM, in presenting them to
the House, and would leave to the majority of the House
the responsibility of rejcting the petitions of the people.
—(Loud cheers.) He would persevere in taking the
sense of the House on this subject.—(Loud cheers.)
Strangers were then ordered to wAhdraw, and the
House divided, when the numbers were—
For the motion
Against the motion
Majority against receiving the petition 1
The announcement of the result was hailed with loud
and continued cheers by the Opposition benches.
THE TARIFF.
Mr. DUFF gave notice that he should move that the
words " horned cattle" should be omitted from.the tariff:
IMPORTATION OF FOREIGN WOOD.
Sir IL DOUGLAS gave notice that he would on to-
morrow move for returns of Foreign Wood entered for
home consumption to the end of January 5, 1842.
NATIONAL DEBT.
Mr. WALLACE gave notice that he would to-morrow
make a motion respecting the National Debt, but what
the precise nature of it was we could not learn, owing to
the noise which prevailed at the time in the House.
REC EPTION OF PETITIONS.
The Hon. W. COWPER gave notice that he would
to-morrow present a petition on the income tax.
Sir C. NA PIER wished to know frinn the Speaker, whe-
ther, as the Right Hon. Baronet was allowed to speak
to the main question, the other evening,any other Member
would have been allowed to follow him. As a new _Mem-
ber he felt interested in the question.
The SPEAKER said he stated the other night that
the Right Hon. Gentleman was perfectly in order.
in speaking to the main question• before the House, because;
in fact, the original question was included in the question of
debate. if any other Hon. Member had wished to speak he
would have had an equal right so to do.
Mr. BROTHERTON wished to know how the case would
have stood if the motion had been for the adjournment of tips
House instead of the adjournment of the debate ?
The SPEAKER said he apprehended that that was a dis-
tinct question. At the same time, if an Hon. Member had
urged the importance of the subject as a reason why the House
should not adjourn, the Hon. Gentleman would see that it
would have been im:•o3sible to deny him the right to speak.
After a few words from Mr. RIGBY WASON which were
inaudible,

Sir ROBERT PEEL said he did riot. will to speak on the
question of adjournment, but he did wish to speak to the main
question. He could not have done so had the Speaker told
him that it would be an evasion of a rule of the House, but
as the Speaker told him it was not he 1-1 t himself entitled to
proceed. Upon the day on which Lord North signified his ie-
signation of the Government, the motion was " That this
House do now adjourn," and Lord North immediately rose to
speak upon that question.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL thought the Right Hen. Gentle.
man was in order in speaking upon the main question.
In answer to a question from Mr. Rigby Wason,
Sir R. PEEL said there were several trades which would
be peculiarly affected by the tariff. At present the holders of '
coffee were subject to a duty of 9d. It was proposed that. they
should be subject to a duty of Bd. instead.
THE TARIFF.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL had understood the Right Hon.
Baronet, at the head of the Government, to say, the other even-
ing, that it was his intention to lay the amended Tariff on
the table this evening. He (Lord John Russell) wished to
ask whether it was probable that the Tariff would be in pos-
session of Hon. Members this evening ?
Sir ROBERT PEEL had certainly promised that the Tariff
should be laid on the table that evening, and he hoped yet
that he might be enabled to perform his promise. He trusted
that before the House separated he should be able to to lay the
amended Tariff on the table.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL hoped due notice would be given
before the Tariff was taken into consideration.
Sir ROBERT PEEL thought there would be ample time
for considering the Tariff before any discussion on the subject
could came on.---( A laugh. )
COLONIAL PASSENGERS' BILL.
Mr. LA BOtiCHERE wished to know on what day it was
likely the second reading of the Colonial Passengers' Bill would
come on?

Mr. GLADSTONE could not at present 6x any day for the
second reading. _

MUTINY BILL.
Mr. IL BERNAL wished to know if the R'ght. Hon. Gen-
tleman intended to proceed with the Mutiny Bill this evening?
Sir R. PEEL said, that as the Hon. Member had given no-
tice of his intention to propose a clame in the Mutiny Bill,
which would lead to discussion, he (Sir R. Peel) would fix the
Bill for to-morrow.

REGISTRATION BILL.
Mr. RIGBY WASON wi,hei4 to ask the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman, the Secretary of State for the Flume Department, when
he intended to lay the Registration Bill on the table of the
House? The Right Hon. Gentleman had given a notice on
the subject some weeks since' and it wa4 important that the
people of the country should have ample time to consider the
provisions of the Bill.

Sir J. GRAHAM said that when the Income Tax Bill, the
Tariff, the Poor-law Continuance Bill, and the Colonial Cus-
toms 13111 should have made some progress, he thought it would
be quite time enough to lay the Registration Bill on the table,
-(A laugh.)
CAPTURES IN THE CHINESE SEAS.

Mr. BLEWITT wished to draw the attention of the Go.
vernment to a circumstance which had recently occurred in
the Chinese seas. It appeared that Sir NV. Norris was Admi-
ralty Comnissioner
_for Hon-Kong. Penang, Singapre, and
Malacca. The ship Frient;s had been captured at Hong-Kong,
and as Sir W. Norris was at that time at Penang, the Friends
was sent to Penang. On her arrival there, Sir W. Norris had
left for Singapore, and the Friends was sent after him, but did
not arrive there until Sir W. Norris had set off for Malacca.
Het Mr. Blewitt) hoped the Government would appoint some
additional Admiralty Commissioners for the Chinese Seas.
INCOME TAX—ADJOURNED DEBATE.
Dr. BO WRING moved the Order of the Day for resuming
the Adjourned Debate.

The Order of the Day having been read,
Dr. BOWRING said that he would venture to entreat the
attention of the House to a few observations, b 'cause, though
he felt bound to vote against the proposal of the Right Hon.
Baronet tie (Dr. Bowring) would na consent to adopt the
resolutions of the Noble Lord, the Member for London, ( Lord
John Russejl) without some qualification. It was sometimes
the privilege of Members of that House, and on this occasi n
it was his ( Dr. &wring's) privilege, to gather some consola-
tion in the.progres: of debates from the concessions mutually
made on both sides of the House to thoss great princip:es to
which they had been faithful through good report and
evil report on all occasions. lie confessed he had heard,
with no small gratification, the declaration t•orri the Noble
Lord, the Member for London, that he thought the time had
come in which a legacy a duty might be conveniently levied on
real property. The Noble Lord hail been taunted by the
other side, for his declarations on this subject, but he (Dr•
13owring) confessed that he felt great gratification, when he
heard the Noble Lord say that the time had arrived when they
ought to do away with the mode of taxation on moveable pro-
perty, inasmuch as it was very unjust, with reference to the
proposition of the burden of
,taxation upon real property. He

confessed, when he heard the causes of the deficit, he rejoiced
that he, for one, had not been a party to the national calamity,

which from year to year had made the resources of the State
not sufficient for its expenses. If he were called on to give
an opinion of the policy that had led to that d-ficit, a great
portion of that policy he could not approve. lie knew not
what English interest was served when we went to Syria, and
established there the dominion of the Turks. He kne,v mit what
benefit England had obtained from the blood of thinisands
having ran down Mount Lebanon, and flowed, mingling with
the waves of the river Jordan. Ile knew not what interest the
people of England had in the war in the north-west of India ;
did it become England to set a tyrant and an imbecile on the
threne instead of a popular ruler? It was stated that ten or
twelve thousand human beings hail been sacrificed in this war ;
but would the Right Hon. Baronet put an end to that war by
any pacific interference? No, ten or twelve thousand more
would probably be sacrificed, while the people of England had
to pay the expense. He could not understand this way of ba-
lancing accounts, setting injury against injury, wrong against
wrong, and murder against murder. He could. not see what
interest the people had in this war, for 'which millions
would have to bo wrung from a suffering people.
He could not hut feel gratified to find that they were now
forced into something like sound principles of taxation. Ne-
cessity had come to their aid ; so completely had the Right
Hon. Baronet, or the Right Hon. Baronet's predecessors. ex-
hausted the means of levying new revenue from the peopl
that it was now necessary to come, with no unsparing hand,
upon some other element of wealth. He confessed that the ar-
gument against a property tax—that it was only intended for a
time of war—produced no impression upon his mind. He did
not ask whether it was a war tax or a peace tax, but whether
it was, or was not a wise and just tax. He believed that if it
were equitably levied, it was a tax which public opinion .vould
ultimately support. The Right Hon; Baronet, however, had
associated his proposal with so much injn4iice, with so
much wrong and so much injury, 'than he could not
give him his unqualified support.—(llear, hear.) In his
. .

inflicting the deepest injury on t;-le tad and commerce of
country. IVIa7 Irks wit"

..ny manufacturers bud storped their svoi
these questions ultl be settle and he considered it A
now the (Inv of the :louse to think rather of acting tUsA
of speaking. The plan of the Right Hon. Baronet e*st
.
bold, comprehensive, and well calculated to attain to
object, which was to raise a sufficient rev",ej
to meet the exiteacies of the country. The pia'. I)r,f:et„.st
on a broad and Lasis. 'File Right.. Hon. I)'''';
-to
was like a skilful physician, who recommended his polen*,,„,
take. exercise. to use the energies of his boil-, and at the 9710
time gave. him strengthening medicine: .(
A lauph.) e/
very obteclionsmsde to the plan of the Right Hot. 13'!"fa
seemed t hint (sir W. James) a convincing proof
main outline it was a goad meaQure. He had looked 90,
many of the public prints, to se., the various different oi"")/0
delivered on the subject at public meetings. There wAs;. ht
instance, a petition from Readirg to the effect that the Bight
Hon. 13aronel was absut to ruin the agriculturists. In
colnshire the graziers took the alarm. In fact, in every quar'ia
especial fear fur peraliar interests was expressed; but the In'd,
feature of the plan, general outline, remained unteue,l3;
He did not. exaggerate these things; hut he should say
nation like Englaad, which had for many years been the x,
miration of the world, was more likely than any ()tier t° 'to
tint to
cite the jealousy of ;::.foreign states. It was on that zee°,,,ir
he thought that they should make every exert on in t''the
power to maintain the eminent honour and grandeur of
are
country. It was said that a tax upon incomes would or,ch
unequally ; but he believed that tt.e inequality Wilt mblial
greater in the case of indirect taxes. He felt,
to professional incomes some relief should be granted.
case of a professional man with 4001. a year, was ve,y fflie
from that of a London proprietor in the receipt of the S!'
amount of rent. The one could,pencl the whole of his r, eq,o,
whin the other was obliged to make alarm him) forftitare coo
:12
gencies. He thought there might be a clear claim to-extinl'th'o
when a person lays out a certain sum in insuring his life. fort 0
_,ed from amount of his income he thought he however, t,..
he

• .--- .ie might be exempts,
mind mind the Right Hon. Baronet had been altogether misled the tax. Ile did not see that this alteration in the lair s ere
when he had confounded property and income; and he was lead to any of that confusion which some other saggestien.,igte
surprised that a man of his acuteness ceutd have been betrayed tainly would, and he thought it might be adopted by tli e "eel
into such an error. A property tax had very many recommen- Hon. Baronet with great benefit. Great inconvenienc.eeee
dations; he believed that it was the wisest. the soundest, and been experieeced from the manner in which the tax hedne i
the most economical method for taxation. The advantage of enfo. ced under the former sets. He would take the datesoiero,
direct taxation was that it could be levied at a comparatively person keeping an academy, and deriving also an ineo
_eon
small cost; the machinery, when properly managed, was at- shipping. He might suffer varioas losses from his coneeiee
tended with little expense, while the machinery of indirect with shipping, and have his income greaely reduced.
,'i,
taxation was multitudinous, vexatious, and very frequently led it would be a vet y hard ease to tax a person of that tle:oes
to great abuse. Indirect taxation exposed them to all the an- lion on his income derived from his academy'
,free
nCustomhouse,ee and vexation. of the Customhouse, and to all he was deprived of the income he derived eel
the despotism of. the Excise; and the system of di- another source. He hoped the
.Right Hon. Baronetwvitt
rect taxation would get rid of most of those evils. manage so, that a person suffering a loss of his
Mean t.: te, s
The Right Hon. Baronet, }nosing tntroduced the wedge, would property classed in one schedule, would be compensa;aiht
be enabled to drive that wedge so as to afford relief to the relief from taxation on property classed in another. lle t wee'
people from those indirect contributions which he believed to the tai would press peculiarly hard on the class he fit t be $
be the source of extreme and ire ense suffering to the people. tioned, the, class of schoolmavers. it would, he thong"i'd the
Take the article of coffee. He would take the .ralue at bt.,s. ; great hardship, if they were taxed on the whole amount re not
there was 84s. per cwt. levied upon it. The mereliant'e income derived from their pupils, while their profits %vetoed
profit was not less than 10 per cent. By the payment of 84s. more than from 51. to 101. on each pupil. He had Men Ivo'
duty the merchant was obliged to put on an additional price of in a homely way, but he hot ed intelligibly, some of the % the Bs. 4d. per cwt. The profits of the retail de.ler might tions which he thought might be advantageously made 310.
be estimated at 15 per cent., and in consequence of the duty of Right Hon. Baronet's plan. In outline it was great lolly the
Bs. 4d. he put on an additional charge of 13s. 10d. ; so preheesive, and as such, would, he hoped, be treated roider
that there was 235. 3d. in addition to the duty of 84e. House. He was sure that when the House came to e..°t 0 a
levied by the State, before the coffee could reach the consumer. the tariff, it would not treat it in a spirit of party, hu • The average price of tobacco was 4d. a pound, on which a duty spirit of moderation. : • had
of 3s. was levied, on which the importer and retailer had their Mr. WALLACE said, the Honourable Member
who rot
profits, as well as on the original cost, so that 250 per cent. was last spoken had gone into tee details of a measure that °tot
levied on the consumers, in consequence of the system of indi- before the House, and had not entered into the measure , the
rect taxation. The price of sugar was 25st on which the im- was before it. He had just told them that timber 0"
iies,
porter and retailer levied 6s. bd. on the consumer. In the " nest-egg" al the agriculturists, but he would allow hi
article of tea,the original value was Is. 9(1. per pound, and the (Mr. W.) to suggest that there were other parties o°4ol
duty was •,s., on which the importer and retailer had their pro- had their " nest-egg." The " nest-egg" of
the coop-their
fits to an extent of 25 per cent., in consequence of the present community was secrecy as to their modes of crinductinci4 system. There were also . many other articles which business. Their desire was nett° have their modea•of COn"rior he would not then enter upon, but the ones he enume- business inquired into in any way whatever. Whatever th! not
rated were sufficient to show the losses sustained missioners may say, he could assure shim that all intlorlo to
by the community in consequence of the present system. With out of the question. However strict the rules might he
respect to the tariff, he considered it advantageous as recognis • secrecy, it would in practice be repeatedly broken ti eels
ing important principles, and he only wished that, together with They were now debating the question of an income teseo 0 the weak, he a-tacked the strong monopolist 4 .—(Hear, hear.) 1 great many things might be said in relation to the pos,"ia
He was grateful for what the Right Hon. Baronet had done; l which the Right Hon. Baronet had placed the country; boil isnd he only regretted that he did net do more. He was sure the first place he thought the R'ght Hon. Gentlem%ert
that his (Dr. B.'s) side of the House would have supported the brought forward his budget at an unseasonable period, "-Ite
Right Hem. Baronet, and if he had done so he should have his 1 the end of the financial year, which he thought was 00°. es'
humble but cordial support.—( Hear, hear.) I parliamentary usage. In the course of his Parliaments7rit4
Mr. GALLY' KNIGHT said, that having seen the vehe- I perietice he never knew a budget brought forward till alt el(
mence with which the proposition of the Right Hon. Baronet ; sth of April. The bUdget was also brought forward pieselebrog
was met and combated, he could not suppress his desire, as ' and he never knew a Minister of the Crown who did la°l 10
a landed Proprietor and and a county Member, from stating forward his whole scheme at once. (Hear, hear.) That W. tifht
his sentiments on the question. The. Noble Lord, the ilember for l view of the matter, and if he were wrong he could be se'o tbs
London, endeavoured to establish two points. The first was that I He hail a•so to complain that time had not been giveo.!,oo-
- necessities of the country were not so great as had been country to understand the q estion. He had likewise to !
represented, and the second that if those necessitiesexisted, . pisin of the eartiality of the measure. He had./ N.,
they could have been better removed by the measures proposed former oc-...aiion, adverted to a recollection 0501 last year, than by those which were thought forward by the •! that the Right ilon. Ba-ottet had stated that it would he ea; present Government. But whatever those necessities were, .if an income tax dal not embrace the whole of the threeered a.
they were of the creation of the Noble Lord's Government, and dams. An he would now quote from a speech delirdieol
the country would never forget the legacy his Government had the Right Hen. Baronet on the 19th of April, 1833, a 3
prt.b
left behind. If the matter were not notorious, he could repre- i glad to see the Right lion. Gentleman, the Memberesa"i'
sent it in the shape of a will bequeathed by the late Govern- ' county Cork, in his place.
The flight Hon. .Bar° se l 3;
ment, which he would read.—(Laughter.) Imprimis. To that the INL.ble Lord (Althorp) did well not to • pro re nt in
John Bull, 5,000,0001. of debt. A war in China, a
war with I come or property tax,.as .it could not be justified, eV, cot'
(India, and an unsettled boundary with revect to America.— I case of , xtreme necessity, and t• rats two or three e'rsusls,
Hear, hear.) That was what was left by the late Govern- Iby such nita i would, he thought, be very unwise. d ore'
ment to the country
tax would be a groat re sosrce iii time of necessity, all 004;
Sir R. PEEL—There are many codicils.—( Laughter.) i not be unwisely a 'Plied in time of' peace. But if it were •P''
Mr. G. KNIGHT—Yes, there were many codicils; but he t sary to impose such a tax In land ought not to beertemet?upt l':
thought he had gone far enough.—( Hear, hear.) They had be (Mr. Wallace) rid not wish to see Ireland taxecile lid
to provide means to carry out the measures which, however I wished to see that England and Scotland were not tax,liad, a much they regretted they had been ever undertaken, it was conceived that Scotland shou•d be as exempt as Ire's: object;
now necessary to carry out, and of which one was produceve of he should take the sense of the House upon the e oriole
more calamity than any other which could be produced in the With respect to a tax upon property, as distinisuisheu Tee
history of England.---( Hear, hear.) It appeared to him that, l tax upon income, the Right Hon. Baronet had eel"!
the necessities of the country demanded the most rigorous ex- doubted whetaer it would favour the interest• of the lab ? 1"
ertions on their part—necessities whi li have been °cc ssineed population. Would tee light Hon. Baronet say so II": 0";
by the extraordinary expenditure and impolitic measures of the his Cllr. Wall:ice's) opulent, pr perry and income wfr III; 44
late Government. Taxes hat been reckleSsly abaseloned by the • nynious terms.—( Hest, hear, fr nn Sir R. Peel.) Neste,.
late Ministry. When they first took office, they had said that in their apolleatio ..—( Hear, hear.) He did not belie o,"'
the Tories had done so much that. there was but little lefs to be t would be l'Onaihle for the Right Hon. Baronet, or 014,105
done in the way of repealing faxen°, , yet, Innet Alttiorp had, ' to impose a tax upon proeery separate from income., 0400
shortly after that, taken off the house tax, that tax %hide . (sewed that any distinstion would be unfair. Now, it t esro
Honourable Gentleman opposite were anxious to reisnpose. that 7d. in the pound was a very small amount, and "", s r,,
and when taking it off', Lord Althorp had said he was- mentioning, b cause, during the war, 10 per cent, waor:tes
ashamed of what he was doing, but the tax was so without any difficulty. It sheu.d be retioLected that,... fool:
unpopular, that he felt forced to take of the tax. Then, w sit . the war, this country had the ball of commerce at lPst
regard to the Post-office. Never had there
.been io ri,aless ! There was then continued prosperity, unceasing menelosee
an abandonment of so large a resource. The Nse, Lord had : ing. l'here was no man engaged in any prudent kind 00410
accused the Riglat Hoe. Baronet of courting popularity. I ness who d•d not go to bee at night richer than he rose
....t• I
Surely he was not courting popularity by proposing what- had , morning.—t Laughtee )
been branded by the Gentlemen opposite with so many oppro- Sir ROBERT PEEL'
—lt would be better to haveo'l
brious epithets.—( Hear, hear.) Surely be was not courting : agaiit.-( Ala tgh. )
et _.,141 -'
popularity by taking away from the great body of his supporterseiLLACE said, at all events, they should " itr"
50 per cent, of the protection which they at present erijoyed. ' expose the affeirs of the distressed eeople, and then tal:esel
—( Hear, hear.) The Right Hon. Bat onet was not legislating i per cent. out of their pockets. On those grounds he JO;
for class interests, but fer the benefit of the whole country.— i Parliament ought not to insist on this tax. Pieuty„°,ooei.,' (Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord had referred to his budget of (Lents had beer, shown to which they could have le.,:e. It:
last year. Now, when there was a good. harvest they could ; supply the deficit of revenue, and he hoped, therer ...rive°
expect no revenue from a fixed duty on corn ; and, besi• es, ! House would prevail on the Right Hon. Baronet to lb
the
he (Mr, Gaily Knight) was convinced that they never ' his scheme_
could maintain a fixed duty. Then, with regard to ' Mr. LIDDELL said, it was perfectly true Ilittl'
the timber duties, the .change proposed - last year ' commercial and agricultural classes of the e`ln, Le thes
would have operated most injuriously for the Canadas, differing were looking with great impatience to the conclu3i"`estit.l
oa that point essentially from the plan now proposed. The , debate, out it was not to be expected that a measure %It :13
alteranon proposed in the Sugar Duties would have destroyed , interests of such importance as the preaent did, 'tweeter.,
the West Indian planter by admitting slave grown sugar and without considerable discussion. He would, thereforeeo
of 'e
have violated those principles for which the nation had made for some time on the indulgence of the 110113 e. ie of bt,
so many sacrifices, and after all that budget would not have Gentleman who ,had just sat dowae had in the coure- udo
realised more than 2,C00,000/., and 5,000,000/. were wanted. speech made one most important admission, vchi'„t, ;,d
It was useless for the Noble Lord to try to retail his damaged very satisfactory to the Right Honourable Baronet' P,e,
and rejected goods—he might try to sell his stinking fish, but were true, as the Right Honeusable Gentleman esti
he would not be able to get it off his hands. He had not had stated, that a property tax could not be IsEd °ofl, !
an opportunity of consulting his constituents on the Right pendently of an income tax, what became td'
,i'..:,
Hon. Baronet s financial scheme, but he felt himself authorised opposition offered hy Hon. Gentlemen on the °,ta: elseet
to form the best judgment he could on propositions submitted The Right Hon. Gentleman had brought forward ilecoaslo;
to Parliament -and to vote upon them according to a whole,' and it would be unfair to the Government t° esilfee
the dictates of his conscience. If he displeased it in detached parts. The only question was, did the e ale
his constituents thus acting they had the remedy its cies of the country require the reposition of the tia,:tie 11
their own hands when an election took place. One the Right Hon. Baronet had proposed ? He hetet 'jeered,
of the chief objections to the incline tax was its inquisi- the speech of the Noble Lord with surprise and avll': al,- is,",
tonal nature. But it appeared to him that no great mischief was not necessary to go back to the period when "he st.ee
could result from the disclosure of the state of a man's affairs tax had been originally proposed, die woule recall 1."017er
to Commissioners who were sworn to secrecy ; besides, the tion cf the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite to they' et( a 11,1,,
Caancellor of the Exchequer had stated that the Rill sheuld he At that period they took office under the auseic,e' -014;eree
so framed as to render the measure as little objectionable as and better leader than they ever had since Lorudeorhesili
.
possible. He could not see the great mischief arising from ( Hear.) At that time their watchwords were, "14 ~ eie oft'
disclosure where every thing was right; in his own case he troachmcnt, and Peace." The first pledge had he. be h,
should not mind if the amount of his income were published at redeemed by the Reform Act, and althoneh yet 04
Charing-cross, because at present the income of every one was jetted to some portions of that mea ure, ie;
ewe
doubled in the estimation of his neighbours, and he was ex- must confess that it removed many blendeer 1).4.'4
petted to liS%e up to their erroneous calculation; while, it had now given us a Government such as tied It% a 'l'., iir.
in the other case, he would only be expected to spend been seen ,n this country—a Government framed o,,tseetir.....
what he could conveniently afford.--( Hear.) He thought Conservative basis, and resting for support upon the o°' 007
the tariff would be a great benefit to the commercial stead of on a boroughmongering oligarchy, and 31.1ue' b,
and manufacturing interests, and to the people at large. He ment that might succeed them must likewise res
tees(
es; .
was perfectly aware that it would cause some apital to betaken people for support. With regard to retrenchment,,eo ° ore
out of one branch of enterprize and directed to another, but this been a retrenchment of revenue with an auemenlaeotrYors ,
.-
must happen under every great change ; no monopoly could be pendituree and with regard to peace, although the cod it, 13,.1.7,
broken up, no approach could be made to a more liberal policy not involved in an European war, yet it was invel'e, A . es-e
without some parties suffering some inconvenience, but the likely to be quite as long continued atel as exper"eie-iaer seelle/
whole community would find themselves in another year in a tish Envoy had been murderered in violation of chant'` tenee
more advantageous position than they were at present. He be- tions, by a barbarian Chief beyond the Wes- eft t,'', 04 •
lieved after the tax had been in operation, many persons would must not go unpunished; and that war had heillsrs, w`','„ieilt ‘.`.
blush at the expressi -ns they had mode use of with respect to barrass the present Government by their predece'%-t illeeeetran
it ; every day that the settlement of the question was delayed rushed into it in spite of the warnings of the nl'ot e'ee-ett
.;
the distress of the manufacturing classes increased. The Noble warrior of the age. Surely, the result of the, , Jae Des
Lord, the Member for London, had talked of Members upon that ought to have enlightened the Noble '-',.,) el Iti the
side of the House having heads made of clay, but they would as to the estimation in which his dn'"Jasoonte of.e
still more deserve the reproaches of the Noble Lord if they were held by the country.—( Hear. ) Even diver'ilee•se
were to abandon a Government who would give them some supporters of the late Government the grealaell's) 310'4
protection and throw themselves into the arms of a party who opinion existed on the subject. His (Air. L', by the Epp.
would deprive them of all '.protection. He acknowledged Colleague had.at the last election been prople" that .0101:e
that the landlords were hit very hard by some of the her for South Durham, and, in prop iris; h`n', 't
the lers; ri
proposals of the Government. The price of their corn Gentleman had said, that although Is . supPala the alt' osed j
would now be diminish d ; and, again, they were hardly Lord's Government, yet he would impose theal
„0,, addrecoe
:„
dealt' with in the article of timber, width the landed tion of the Corn-laws. When hie Hon. G':learthe 6°;,,' ea.'
proprietors had hitherto considered as a nest-egg to meet the erectors, he expressed himself as aperoving,;,, to,fle/ oaten
any extraordinary expenses, such as the expert.es of elec. ment, but he also expressed his decided ornwsle'ther Ho 'Genf.
0
tioneering, for instaece.— ( A laugh.) But for his part he sure inter eriag with the sugar duties. To', Shred that
the,' '
should be sorry that his was the only foot not pinched at a demon, the Members for North and Soutaegaired t the/ ,
period of pressing public necessity. He felt on the whole whom sat on the opposite side of the House! t that So- . .
grateful to the Government for the plans they hail brought would vote for a change in the sugar datjantics' 1e r f°''',.l
fkittelnea!ienit' ;di jos; ;
forward, and they should have his most sincere and cordial
bwlueuLdorndothhaedarreofferarneyd thane in isnpetehoebioiTtbheer
support.—( Hear, bear.)
Mr. ELPHINS i ONE said he wished to state the grounds Wallingford, and alleged that the Hon. Gretdeell) L."!o, bir.',r
upon which he should vote with the Noble Lord, the Alember ceived and misled the farmers. He (Mr' "ii dit "'a' l'aiwt,s' -$
for the City of London. He was perfectly ready to admit that that if the farmers had been deceived and raj'''. 'ey °Niel]; Ofi 1
if they were devising a new system of t axationle would vote the R est Hon. Baronet or. theGovernmenr. In n!lthe pritmli he-
...,
fur a tax upon realised property. The present tax was a tax Hon. Baronet's speeches he had pledged himself to
elcee thyself; ..,
upon income, upon the hard earned industry of the people ; the fluctuating duties on corn. It was Peicie,eitrYaihl.ad re:te‘44.llll,.
for that he could not vote. It ban been . calculated had not pledged himself to no alteration
by Mr. M'Gregor that if they were to impose a tax of four Liddell) considered that he (Sir Robert P," e), Ott that (12,, ,
per cent, upon the rent of land and houses, they would derive every pledge he had given. If Hon. Gentteame.
of nor'', t st,"
from it an. income of 10,000,000/ or 12,000,0001. a- near ; Ministerial) side of the House had undTicaor. ) lie must t•the-:
they would thus be enabled to abolish many of tha main taxes, guage, let them be answerable for it.—
to save vast expense in collectine, and to confer upon the that there was great discontent
nd the ""rke';esete- e
public real benefit. The Right lion. Baronet proposed to country. He was aware that
thefairsa
that the aP"'- rtieo
raise only 3,000,000/. or 4.000,000/e and if the old tax might in a state of stagnation, and it is
believedthe ignorance ape., 0
be taken as an authority, the expense of collecting would be sion of the dealers had been raised by
was likely to haepe
.i,
a quarter of a million. The Right Hon. Baronet proposed to who had expressed opinioes as to what
,e 4
a through I', rl'.
_1,7.,
tax incomes of three and of thirty. years' purchase in precisely that branch of trade. W""n he
Ps that the, market.it'oe
ee, pe. ti':g 0
the same manner. If a physician who had an income of other day he saw a placard annou.ncioingeat
at _ .. r
10,000/. a-year went to an insurance office, he would be told likely shortly to be supplied 1
wit
l such aPPre,heus, tool'
that his income was not worth more than two or three years' Could anything he more visionary thanm
torts into this CO de,
among Ste cattie-dealers owere.:,
purchase, whilst 10,e00/. a-Lear in landed property was worth these? He would just refer to the
of
the flotti! 0„T„ols.
thirty years; yet the Right on. Baronet proposed to tax both from Ireland alone, and he would read.
' The Revenue( I
v1;01,1
/es • of ~-,
in the same ratio.—(Cries Hear, hear.") Several Hon, tails extracted from a work entitled
Kingdom, which_
,a.,ie
Gentlemen id the course of the discussion had attempted tion, and Commerce of the United.n
te
importation (.).1. ti.:0:1.
tr; show that the working classes of this country would benefit show the extraordinary increase
tact' ten Yea's fr"ra 1„e fe:P
by the proposed tax, as though they must be benefited b
exemption from a tax to which others were subject ; but the In 1825, the imports were 613,. -4
ws being an increase oi rig r''
working classes knew that by loosening the capital with which no less than 93,150 oxen an( cloto.)ai
74,191, and 1835,8:3, ibe
Y that had taken place within thes,_cow,
and
oxen,
and
fly,
_e4
wages were paid you must inflict severe injiry upon them; than 34,6e6. Of sheep,
ofin .
3,.,61. -
Of ,wine, in 1
c, an irr
they knew that when you taxed their bread AO per cent. in one head, being an immense
in 5
part of the scheme, they could be no gainers by your taxing number was 6e.9e0, and
the other classes three per cent.---( bleat', hear.) Upon look- crease of 310,000.
at was higher in London thran_oll
ing at the tariff proposed by the Right Hon. Baronet, he felt aFay the whichapprehensionms'ty had ari4en. lie found
.neste,
bound to say that he thought it a great improvement upon the this moment butchers'bee,n
before, with the exeeption _
meat
,: foe..
existing duties ; but there was one vice which pervaded the lieved it had ever
whole of it, namely, the continuance of differential duties.
iferassetiihoarro;Bl;of
.r
couldound. He thought every "'" "hoielor On
did he ,m.e3i7e6i:2l thesehead ' fhaecitns.'th. ar,
at°,
itihereyp
(Hear, hear.) He thought that duties should be merely levied
interest of the landed propriet n _a;
that o 7,
for the purposes of revenue. It was roposed to impose a that it was not the
agriculturists,any more than the consumer,
not obtain the best butcher.'
~‘
aid-r„it
dul of Is only on Canadian timber, He could not
ould be a high price. He coincide in the justice of that proposal.—( Hear, hear.) article
ethßerie s
with their Ll' tO
ght Hon. Baronet would deal
..
a„,
CanWa. paid nothing towards the taxes of this country .she did that
tariff as it should be dealt with, and that he was fually.'iii iiter
not even pay for the troops stationed there, and it was unjust tart
great duties which were demanded of him as 111,
Ito tell the to injure the people of this country by admitting Canadian, rim- those t
empire.
He
11 (Mr. Liddell) had ventured
in . e
Irevn-: ~
her at a nominal duty. It was placing Canada. 'in a better of a great
tof the importatien of ca sle r . ~_ east
• !louse the amous
e:aturday ire
situation than if she were an integral portion of the empire.. -
also state to the. House tha., last • 1
reest
better off He would
stated the 3 n
voste.
According to the proposed plan, Canada would be
seen a paragraph in a newspaper, which
one _
than Yorkshire.
made of live oxen into Scotland_
oflll ''oo, sod
cua- portation ever (Mr. Liddell) binelbievot3.
Sir W. JAMES deprecated-the continuance of these dis
21'9 head °
sions, which, by delaying the settlement of the question, were had been made into Aberdeen, viz.,