Star.
London, England, 1830-06-08 00:00:00

STAMPS AND SPIRITS.

Mr. M. FITZGERALD presented a petition on the subject of
the taxation in Ireland ; it was from Kerry.
Mr. S. RICE wished to know when the Chancellor of the Ex..
chequer was likely to bring forward the question respecting stamps
and spirits, as the matter bad excited much agitation.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied, that he
was anxious to bring them forward; but he really could not tell
when he could do so, the time of the House having been so much
occupied by incidental debates.
Mr. O'CONNELL said, increased taxation would only accelerate
the ruin of Ireland.
Petition ordered to be read.
GOVERNMENT STAMPS.

Mr. Alderman TH6ll.lPloipresentea;Petition from Mr. J.
Reilly, respecting his invention to prevent frauds in making and
delivery of stamps, &c.—Ordered to be printed.
Sir 31. W. RIDLEY presented a petition for the repeal of the
duty on foreign oak ship-timber, from George Straker of Newcastle-
upon-Tyne, ship-builder.
Sir C. WETHERELL gave notice that next session he should
move for a Bill to restrain the Atturney-Gtneral's power to file ex.
officio informations.

Mr. HEATHCOTE asked whether the Ministers contemplated
any measure on the subject of the corn laws?
No answer.

Mr. J. STUART asked if there was any objection to lay upon
the table the papers relative to the charges against Gen. Darling ?
Sir G. AIURRAY said lie thought it would be unfair to do so,
as the public would be apt in that case to prejudge the case.

SUPPLY.

The house then resolved itself into a Committee of Supply.
Mr. DAWSON moved that there be granted 28,0001. for mis.
eons and special commissions for 1830.
Sir J GRAHAM said, he was surprised that this 'vote was
brought forward without some explanation as to the largeness of the
rum. The expense of the missions to Mexico were very enormous.
To M. Mosier there was paid in 1825, the sum of 5,22 W. for five
months' service and his journey home. The cost of the Commission
altogether, which lasted only 30 months, was no less than 31,0001.
to the country. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Cockburn, who had staid there
only three weeks at the house of the consul, and who had never dune
one official act, had received the enormous sum of 6,0001. and on
his return to this country he was sent out again, when, after remain-
ing nine weeks, during which time he never went toßagota, the place
ef hie destination, he returned of his own accord, and In the exercise
of his own discretion, to this country. (Hear). For his services on
these two occasions be received no less than 13,0001. and after this
it might be supposed that Mr. Cockburn and the public were quits ;
but no such thing. As long as Lord Dudley remained in office he
bad no chance, but when he was removed Mr. Cockburn presented
his claim for 1,6601., and he obtained it—by what mysterious infiu.
enee It was impossible for him to say. (Cheers.) Mr. Turner, Mr.
Ward, and Mr. Gordon, had similarly received large sums, and Mr.
Chad had received 5,0001. outfit and salary, and had never quitted
London at all, and all this under a ministry which professed to be
economical.--(Cheers.) There was also another item which might
be justly termed a job. Mr. Fox, who was holding an official
situation at Naples, was directed to go to Buenos Ayres, and
he received 1,5001. as an outfit. Now it so happened that he
was in the receipt of his salary as Envoy in Italy, and yet
there is the item—" Mr. Fox, advance on account of salary 1.0001."
There were other charges equally extravagant, and he should there-
fore move ea an amendment, a specific reduction of the vote to the
extent of 9,1911. for which charge he could see no reason whatever.
The population of the country were in such a state as to disable
them from bearing the burthen of such abuses ; and however loth
lie was to take the present course, he felt himself compelled to do
so, for the only way to attempt a remedy for the evil was by point-
ing out to the people the extent of the abuses which the House re-
fused to do away with. Parliament had done nothing in the way
of reduction except in one solitary instance : but in such a plain case
as he had laid before the house, he trusted that such a gross abuse
would not be tolerated. (Much cheering.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he had
listened with great attention to the honourable baronet, but was
unable to fix upon the grounds on which he moved the reduction.
He appeared to be under the impression that there ought to be a
reduction in the salaries of the present year, because some abuses
had taken place in 1825, 26, 27, 28, and 29. It was not fair to
charge ministers with a want of economy, when, of their own ac-
cord, they bad reduced the expenditure, not by weakening the force
and power of the country, but by looking closely to every item of
expense, by the enormous sum of 1,100,00 W. In the diplomatic
department also, an immense reduction had taken place ; and it was
to be remembered, that this was the last year that any grant would
be required for South American Missions, for it was the intention
of ministers to bring the whole of the expense of missions to South
America within the sum always allowed for Europe alone. He
could, therefore, undertake that this would be the last year that
Parliament should be called upon for any vote for missions to the
:Southern hemisphere. The allowances to Mr. Ward were merely
experimental, in order to judge what sum ought to be given to am-
bassadors going to those States. With respect to Mr. Cockburn, it
was true that during the two years of his appointment he had for
eight months resided in England, which was owing to his being
attacked so violently by fever that be was taken on board by his
friends under the impression that he could not survive. Ile was
taken to Jamaica, and from there was brought to England, where
his state of health was so bad that his leave of absence was length-
ened. Upon his return to the Caracas he found General Bolivar
there, ant, as it was to him he was accredited, he thought it right
to remain at the Caracas rather than proceed to Begot*, where the
general was not. He soon after returned to England, at the request
of General Bolivar, to bold personal communication with Mr. Can-
ning upon matters which he conceived, perhaps erroneously, to be
sufficiently important to justify such a course on his part. With
respect to Mr. Fox, he believed that he was at this moment on his
passage to South America, to which place he had received instruc-
tions to proceed, and be believed that he had been guilty of no sort
of delay whatever beyond what was absolutely necessary.
Sir R. WILSON admitted that Mr. Cockburn's illness was of a
Revere character, and he also knew from documents in his own pos-
session that General Bolivar had most pressingly entreated Mr.
Cockburn, as the friend of Columbia, to return and pereonally to
have an interview on the subject with Mr. Canning. Under these
circumstances be thought it would be very hard to inflict a fine on
lir. Cockburn, who had acted to the best of his discretion in the
esterase of his duty.
Colonel DAVIES said that these salaries were kept at an enor.
moody high scale, for it appeared that 6,0001., besides house rent,
was allowed to the ambassadors from this country to South Ame.
ries, the cheapest country in the world; while the United States
only allowed 12,000 dollars to their ambassadors to Great Britain,
the dearest country in the world. Why was 0001. paid to Mr. Cock.
burn for house rent In a country where be remained only a few
weeks (Hear, hear, bear.) It was strange that the Bight Hon.
Gentleman bad not mid one word of Mr. Chad, who had never left
London for an hour, and who hod, notwithstanding, received so
mach of the polls mony. He should vote for the amendment.
An bon. Menke who moils front under the gallery said, ;that
diet the appointment of lie. Chad, it was discovered that it would
be irjudictous at that 111003•111 to send out an envoy, and he was

therefore detained in London, Ind was only to receive one-half the
salary to which he would have been entitled bad he gone out. It
would be very hard upon Mr. Chad if he was to be detained in
London without receiving any remuneration.
Mr. HUME said no blame was to be attributed to Mr. Chad, but
to the government. Ministers talked of economy, and yet they sent
out aniWasadors to the South American States, with salaries suffi-
cient to demoralize all those republics.—(A laugh.) It was pre.
posterons to see the American ambassadors at the same courts as the
British ambassadors, and negotiating their matters as well, and
generally better, though they were not allowed half the salaries.—
(Hear.) Last year ministers promised a reduction in these esti-
mates, but instead of that it was actually incressed, so that the only
way of checking this system of tulles' extravagance was by re.
fusing the supplies.—(Hear.)
Mr. STRA FFORD CANNING said, he thought that Minis-
ters had given such proof of their desire to practise every kind of
economy, that the House might safely confide in them, and rely that
they would, of their own accord, most materially reduce this vote
against the next Session of Parliameat.
Mr. HOBHOUSE said, that some of these charges were of a
most extraordinary kind, and justified the House in calling for ex-
planation. It was very strange that no feeling of olecortnn should
influence Ministers in judging of these matters. Every one knew
who the Right Honourable Mr. Gordon was, and who were his con-
nections; and if Ministers had any delicacy, surely the first sa-
laries they should seek to reduce should be those of their own rela-
tives, particularly when those salaries were for doing nothing.—
(Great cheering.) lie had a wish that every encouragement should
be given to the young republics, but there should not be an unli-
mited call on the public puree for doing less than nothing.—(Hear.)
There was the right honourable gentleman's mother in the list, but
certainly It was not on that account the expense was opposed. Ilia
side of the house would much rather it was some person who had no
friends on the treasury bench, because, if it was a poor friendless
devil then they might hope to succeed in lessening the expense. Ha
thought parliament ought to see that there was no confidence to be
placed in the professions of ministers, and that they must themselves
take care to limit the expenditure.—(Hear.)
Mr. WARDE said the late Mr. Canning felt it to be his duty to
send Consuls to the New States of South America, and he then
stated that the expense of living in these countries being high, he
could not keep the expense so low as he might otherwise be able,
and was very desirous to do. It had been awed by the Right Hon.
Member for Liverpool, that our manufactures to the amount.uf nine
millions were exported to South America ; and he hoped the House
would not consent to cut down the expense of our diplomatic rela-
tions with that country.
Lord 110W1CK said the question was not whether we should
cut down any necessary expence of keeping up our relations with
those countries; but whether we should continue a wasteful and
scandalous expenditure for the purpose of favouritism and corrup-
tion. (Hear, hear.) He did not object to the payments made to
the diplomatists who actually performed the duties, but to those sa-
laries paid to persons on pretence of their performing service in
South America, while they were actually living in I.ondso. There
was a charge of 7,1661. for three outfits for persons who had per-
formed no duty. The whole expence of Mr. Colbum's mission was
17,7791. for which he had performed but a few weeks service.
r Hear, hear.)
Sir J. GRAHAM replied.
The House divided_
For the Amendment ...
Against it....
Majority

The Resolution was din agreed to.
The House resumed.

TILE FORGERY BILL.

On our re-admission into the gallery, the SPEAxicit was putting
the Order of the Day for the third reading of the Forgery Bill, when
Sir J. hIACKINTOS/1 rose to propose an amendment, which
was merely to repeal capital punishments in all cases of forgery, ex-
cept in that of will& The punishment which he should substitute
was, imprisonment and hard labour for any term not exceeding 14
years. He should also propose to take away all powers of relaxing
the punishment for forgery from the Governor of New South Wales,
except at the desire of the Crown. The first amendment which he
moved was—to leave out the word " death^ in the third page of the
Bill.

Mr. BUXTON seconded the motion. He denied the assertion
made by Mr. Peel, in his speech, relating to the facility of passing
forged bills on clearing houses. There were sumerous instances of
forgeries committed on bankers which were never made public;
from a reluctance in the bankers to prosecute on account of the seve-
rity of the law. One banker had stated before the Committee that
under no circumstance should he prosecute fur having a forged check
passed on him. He then observed that, in 1817, no less than 31,180'1
Bank of England notes were forged. Thus there were 31,180 capi-
tal
crimes committed ; out of these only sue hundred and forty.
two were prosecuted, sixty-two convicted, and only fourteen I
executed. Thus the chance of escaping was as two hundred to
one. It was this uncertainty of punishment that rendered the law
unavailing. Property should be protected under any circumstances ;
but the quet.tion was, would it not be better protected by doing
away with the capital punishment ? He called the attention of the
House to the petitions of 1000 bankers in England, who suppli-
cated the House to remit the punishment of death, in order to in-
crease the security of their property. One banker who wrote to him
(Mr. B.) stated that he had forty forgeries committed on him, yet
he in no instance had prosecuted, on account of the severity of the
punishment.
Mr. LENNAED had received some letters from country bank-
ers,
stating that the extreme rigour of the law had prevented them'
in several instances from prosecuting for forgery. It was worthy of
observation, that the feelings respecting this question were all on
one side. Not one Petition was there on the table in support of the
present system. Nor was the feeling confined to ono class of per-
sons ; it was general throughout the country. The utmost punish.
ment for such offences in France was branding, and hard labour in
the sallies for seven years, yet there were fewer foreries in France
than in this country. He (Mr. bennard) sincerely-believed that if
the Right Hon Baronet would accede to the proposed amendment,
he would do more for the prevention of forgery than by persevering
with the Bill as it now stood.

The SOLICITOR-GENERAL denied the deduction of the
Hon. Member for Weymouth ( Mr. Buxton), who took it for
granted that, because there were 31,000 Bank of England notes
forged in 1817, that therefore there was so many capital crimes
committed. The fact might be that one person had forged hun-
dreds of these notes. The Honourable and Learned Gentleman
then proceeded to show that there was a considerable mitigation of
the severity of the law in the present bill; but it repealed the
punishment of death in cases of forgery of deeds. So that the
mitigation was not confined to cases respecting which the capital
punishment was never carried into execution. The Honourable and
Learned Member then proceeded to observe, that no punishment waa
su well calculated to deter persons from the commission of that
crime as death. The idea of being suspended by the neck and ex.
posed to the public gaze, operated as a tenor on the minds of those
whom the fear of any secondary punishment would not deter from
committing the offence. He did not know of any class that felt an
aversion to prosecute for forgery except the Quakers, who objected
from conscientious motives to take away life. If the punishment of
death operated to prevent the crime in question, then it was a wise
system of punishment, and in his opinion it had that effect. He
could not consent to abandon the punishment of death for the crime
of forgery in such a country as this.
Mr. MACAULEY denied that the laws-in existence against
the crime of forgery effected the object for which they were passed.
The Right Hon. Secretary said upon a former night, that the Bank
prosecuted for forgery. Well, but other bodies did not. So that
the forger left one body that prosecuted to practise his frauds upon
another. For the nine years ending 1819, the number of persons
prosecuted fa the crime of forgery were 708 ; of this number 334
got off. During the same period the number prosecuted for the
minor offence were MOO, and only 57 of those escaped r (Hear, hear.)
Committing Justices, witnesses, and juries, were all against prose-
cuting forgery, in consequence of the severe punishment; but the
Secretary of State was not so. Horror of the acme gave way to hor-
ror for the punishment. Even in the ease of Fauntleroy, whose
guilt was so great, 8,000 persons signed his Petition. They trans-
ferred the exercise of their functions to juries, who would rather vio-
late their oaths than do their bloody drudgay—(Hear.)
Mr. CRIPPS opposed the proposition of the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman against the wish of his constituents, but in doing so, he de-
nied that he did it for the mere purpose of supporting Ministers.
Sir C. WETHERELL thought that the measures introduced by
the Right Hon. the Secretary of State were great improvements in
the Criminal Cade; but according to the Hon. Member for Wey-
mouth, they were no improvements ; they were only the small beer
of reform: (a laugh.) If the proposition of his Right Hon. Friend
were acceded to, the only crime that would be punished with death
would ibe murder. Now he did not think the House were pre-
pared to go that length. It was the opinion of one class of persons,
that, according to the Scripture, the only crime that should be
punished with death was murder. But neither Paley nor Black-
stone confined the punishment of the law to this crime. Nor could
he accede to the opinion of the Quakers, who front conscientious
feelings did not p to law at aIL He might rapes their feelings,
but he must oppose their judgment. He denied that transporta-
tion was a sufficient punishment in cases of forgery. He bored that'
the right honourable Secretary would persevere in his motion, and
not be acted upon by any thing like tear. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. H. GURNEY said a few wads, which were inaudible in
the gallery.
Sir it. PEEL feared that the House were led away by statements
which were the result mom of benevolent feelings than by an am.
rate investigation into facts. It was not true that the crime
of forgery had increased under the existing law, and from the
beet inquiries which h: had made, he was satisfied that now:Mary
punishment would bertfectual in preventing this crime, sad ina

if it were the proposed punishment! would soon be more ob.
noxious than even death. His former opinions remained unchanged,
and acting stn those opinions, he must vote for retaining the
capital punishment for this crime.
Mr. BROUGHAIII was still opposed to the bill, and remained
unconvinced by the arguments of the Right Hon. Secretary.
Sir R. PEEL and Mr. BROUGHAM mutually explained.
The House then divided. The numbers were—
For the Amendment
Against it
Majority l3
Sir R. PEEL would not oppose the further progress of this bill,
but lie must, in consequence of the alteration of its form, resign it
Ito the hon. member opposite, as his own opinion of its effect was
of course uuehnrgtil, and he must consequently disclaim the bill
as his. He %viatica the lit ti,e might not have to regret the adoption
of the amendment.

The third reading of the bill was pro firma postponed till to
(this day).
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and the
House adjourned at Three o'Cloek.

LIST of MAJORITY of One Hundred and Eighteen,
Who voted against Sir James Graham's Motion.
Alexander, J. Dawson, M. 114Kinnion, C.
Antrobus, C. Darlington, Lord Manning, W.
Atkins, Alderman Doherty, J M'Kenzie, Sir J.
Ashbwrnhatn, P. Donde., R. A. M'Leod, N.
Ashurst, J. East, Sir H. Martin, Sir B.
Arbuthnot, Rt HonC.Elliott, Lord Norton, Hon. C. H.
Battley, C. H. Fitzgerald, Raton M.O'Brien, W.
Bell, M. Fellows. N. Pettet, 1.. H.
Burrard, -- Gilbert, A Peel, Rt. Hon. Sir R.
Bingham, Lord Goulbutn, Rt Hon H.Peel, W.
Beresford, M. Gurney, H. Peel, Colonel J.
Bailie, J. Gordon, Hon. Capt. Powlet, Lord W.
Barclay, D. Gower, Lord I Perceval, S.
Barclay, C. Grenville, Hon C. Phipps, General
Branston, J. Herries, Rt Hon C. Prendergast, M.
Bankes, G. Holmes, W. Planta, J.
Bastard, Capt. Hulse, J. Rosa, C.
Brydges, Sir J. Hay, Lord A. Rochford, General
Brecknock, Lord Hutchinson, R. (Tip-Rogers, W.
Becket, Sir J. perary) Rae, Sir W.
Cartwright, W. R. Hardinge, H. Sanderson. E.
Clive, H. Hay, M. Somerset, Lord G.
Calerafr, Rt. Hon. J. Hope, H. Scarlett, Sir J.
Calvert, N. Inns, Sir H. Sugdes, Sir E. B.
Calvert, J. King, Sir J. D. Smith, G.
Croker, J. W. King, Hon. R. Smith, J. A.
Capel, J. Knox, Hon. T. Smith, C.
Cavanagh, Col. Knox, Hon. J. Soutkeron, Admiral
Canning, Rt. Hon. S. Legge, Hon. Stun, J.
Craddock, Colonel Lusbington, Col. Stewart, J.
Corbet, P. Lewis, F. Rt. Hon. Thompson, Alderman
Castlereagh, Lord Lumley, S. Tunno, R.
Cooper, B. Loth, J. Trench, Colonel
Coote, Sir C. Lowther, Lord Thompson, L.
Cripps, J. Leech, J. Van Homerigla, P.
Cockburn, Sir G. Maxwell, J. Williams, 0.
Campbell, A. Moore, G. Ward, W.
Clerk, Sir G. blurra y,Sir G. Rt Hon Wood, Col.
Courtenay, T. P. Rt. Maitland, Hon. A.
Hon. Maxwell, H.
Dalrymple, Sir A. Mundy, F. Dawson, G. R.
LIST of th► MINORITY of Ninety-Nine.

Who, on the 7th of June, voted for Sir James Graham's Motion,
to reduce the vote for Special Missions to the South American
States, from the sum of 28,0001. to the sum of 10,000 L
Brown, J. Hume, J. Robinson, Sir G.
Buxton, T. F. Hobhouse, J. C. Bickford, W.
Benet, J. Honywood, W. Rice, T. S.
Brownlow, C. Howard, R. Smith, V.
Bernal, R. Jephson, D. 0. Stun, Col.
Baring, Sir T. Inglis, Sir R. Sadler, M.
Baring, F. Kennedy, T. F. Sandon, Lord
Beaumont, T. W. Knatchbull, Sir E. Scott, Hon. J. 11.
&nand, Lord G. Lushington, Doctor Trani, H.
Buller, C. I.abouchere, H. Tynte, E. W.
Black, Sir F. Langston, J. H. Talbot, Colonel
Buck, W. Leonard. T. B. Tufton, Hon. H.
Bankes, H. Latouebe, J. Tomes, J.
Birch, J. Macintosh, Sr J. Tennyson, C.
Coke, T. Macdonald, Sir J. Taylor, M. A.
Carew, R. Monck, J. B. Thomson, C. P.
Clifton, Lord Marjoribanks, S. Wilbraham, G.
Calthorpe, Hon. F. Martin, J. Warburton, H.
Cartels, E. Macauley, T. B. Webb, Col.
Colborne, R. Mars/rail, J. Wood. Aid.
Davenport, E. Marshall, W. Wood, J.
Dawson, A. Morpeth, Lord Whitp, H.
Davies, Col. Milton, Lord White, Colonel
Dennison, W. J. Normanby, Lord Yorke, Sir J.
Dennison, J. J. Ormanton, Lard
Dickenson, W. Ord, W. TILLIII6
Duncombe, W. Osborne, Lord F. Graham, Sir J.
Ebrington, Lord O'Connell, D.
Kaatbope, J. Mips, G. B. PAIRED 07111.
Ewart, T. Palmer' C. F. Calvert, C.
' Fasakerley, J. N. Pendarvis, E. Dundu, G.
Fortescue, Hon. G. Price. Sir R. Dundu, T.
Foley, J. Protheroe, K. Harvey, D. W.
Fane, J. Philips, Sir G. Knight, R.
1 Guest, J. J. Power, R. Poynts, W. S.
Grattan, H. Roberts, A. W. Smith, Hon. R.
Heatheote, 81r W. Rancllffe, Lord Westenra, C. C.
Howick, Lord Robinson, G. R. Wood, C.

HOUSE OF LORDS-THIS DAY.

Netterville Claim of Privilege—. The Rev. Richard Henry to at-
tend to be sworn, in order to his giving evidence on his claim of
peerage before the committee of privileges.
ORDERS OF THE DAY._

Mildmay's Divorce Bill—to be read a second time counsel to
be heard, and witnesses to be examined in support thereof, at four
o'clock.—(Lords ordered to be specially summoned thereon.)
Watching, &c. Parishes in England Bill—to be referred to a
committee of the whole house.
Bogs' Draining, in Ireland, Bill—to be read a second
(Lords to be summoned thereon.)
Bother Levels' Bill—committee thereon... Wm. Watson to attend
to give evidence.

HOUSE OF COMMONS—Tins DAT.
--......-_
NOTICES OF MOTIONS.

Mr. E. Davenport—to submit a motion declaratory that "to re.
sieve the industry, property, and commerce of the country, by re.
storing the old law of the land, which gave to the people of these
realms the option of discharging their pecuniary obligations in silver
—an advantage of which they have been, of late years only, deprived.
Mr. Attwood—to bring forward his postponed motion relative to
the state of the currency.
Lord Lowther—to move for leave to bring in a bill respecting
the Holyhead Road, Bridges, and Harbour; to repeal so much of
the Act 4 Om IV, c. 74, as appoints the Chief Commissioner of
the Woods and Forests as CommWioner for executing any of the
several acts, with relation to the Holyhead Road, Bridges, &c.
and also to relieve the office of Woods and Forests from the duty of
executing, or essisting in executing, the powers and provisions of
the several acts recited in the last.mentioned act.
Mr. Hume—to present a petition complaining of the conduct of
the New Church Commissioners.