The Sun.
London, England, 1845-02-21 00:00:00

WO
Seaton on the subject. The brothers Bandiera conducted whom I have myself a very great respect, Mr•
themselves with propriety during their residence in Lovett.
Corfe, but on the night of the 12th of June they, in com- Mr. DUNCOMBE—Go on.
good 'lb°
pany with other individuals, to the number of twenty-one Mr. MILNES said one name was as go hat de
persons, embarked in a small vessel and sailed, as it is died. The Hon. Gentleman knew very well e, ba
supposed, for the coast of Calabria. The Austrian line which he had taken in politics had nearly mat 1
and Neapolitan Consuls waited on hint to be fur an object—he would not say of suspici n—but t tiTee
did not e'..o,
niched with the means of bringing back the regard.—(Laughter.) Ile (Mr. M;lnes)
vessel. This there was no authority to do, but he placed that the warrant of which the Hon. Gentlemen_.`;‘,,e
at their disposal the means of communicating the de- plained had been issued unwisely. At the saine a
parture of the vessel to the Neapolitan authorities. thought the Hon. Gentleman had a right to a full 1,
CLERKS OF QUARTER SESSIONS.
Sir J. GRAHAM briefly moved for leave to bring in planation with respect to it. Now, one word as. t,cl.. tilt":
motien of the Hon. Gentleman. It was statedmeet,,,
a Bill to regulate the appointment and payment of Clerks paper of the House that he demanded a new cotiiiat'tia
and other Officers of the Courts of Petty and Quarter
Sessions of the Peace, Oyer and Terminer, and Gaol ic would be in the le collection of the House !Ic to,
puthe were taken very much by surprise when 0 Yeste
Delivery.
Mr. 'ERRAND wished to ask the Right Hon. covered that the power of opening letters waseovitt e
iu the Government. Sir John Hanmer—than wee 5,i
Baronet, the Secretary of State for the Home Depart- man, for his age, was better read in the C, nstituttet
meat, whether it was his intention to deprive magistrates his country—was taken by surprise.—(Lau/.004
of the power of appointing their own clerks ? If that The fact of this ignorance being in existence
:ping s
were the case, be believed it would cause a great many he thought, the innocence of the Farty exeres etO
magistrates to retire altogether from the commission of He did think that if the Hon. Member had broug4ts
the peace. own case under the notice of the House before Its",,te
Mr. ESCOTT said he apprehended that was not the Mezzini, it would have been brought with intlellbigs ale'
proper time to discuss the clauses of this Bill. He must, weight. If his I. tters had been opened, it waAnil iti
however, sincerely thank the Right Hon. Baronet for as a Member of Parliament, to come forward sly, he
introducing so important a measure. The object which the same charge then as now, and, most assure 0
ttts
he should keep in view in the further progress of the he done so on the spot, the sympathy of Hon. I," el .
lie
measure would be to take care that no provision was in- would have been much more warmly enlisted
traduced into the Bill to enable any person who derived ddecd'g ;
favour.—(Hear, hear.) He had, in a grestmeseers'
profit from former extortionate practices, to be remu- weakened his case by his delay.—(Hear.) tiged
nerated in proportion to his past extortion.—(Hear.) he still thought the Hen. Gentleman was juesae bet
Sir J. GRAHAM begged to state, in reply to the Hon. asking the Right Ilon. Baronet if a warrant elver;
Member for Knaresborough, that he did not seek by his granted to open his letters, and that his Right, re gre'
Bill to deprive magistrates of the power of appointing their able Friend might answer that question. A 'et jposef„
own clerks, but he objected to allowing them to receive question exists as to whether the presofeis se
any fees except in Petty Sessions or in open Court. should be continued at all.—(Hear, hear.)
eller. 11';
Mr. WAKLEY moved for a copy of any petition, to- feeling was in favour of a limitation of that lie,.!ratetf°o
gether with a copy of the signatures attached thereto, principal reason for not voting with the Hon. Mrerber Ow
which had been presented to the Crown by the Council of Finsbury was, because he believed that anY Ale t taja9S,
the Royal College of Surgeons of England, praying her voted for the motion gives colour of themtespetl'i
most gracious Majesty to grant to that College the fiable suspicion and foul misrepresentation Wit," ""r,beiri;
Charter which received the sign manual of the Crown on the conduct of his Right Hon. Friend.—(li
the 14th day of September, 1843. The arrows of calumny had been directed fret; °vete;
Mr. HUME moved for a Select Committee to inquire ters against his Right Hon. Friend ; he had the n' e
into the state and management of the lighthouses, float- . posed to the severest, and, in some cases, Toe nefet
ing lights, buoys, and beacons, under the charge malignant censure. He was assailed by ail 5000 e
and management of the Corporation of Trinity House papers, from the dullest down to the livelit, Wee,
of Deptford Strond, of the Commissioners of Punch—and he should have said, up to Func lift
Northern Lighthouses, of the Corporation for preserv- tainly they are the best of all.—(Hesr, belie felt tel
ing and improving the Port of Dublin, and of all and cheers.) When he saw these things, retro
lights, buoys, and beacons, in the hands of any honest indignation at the gross injustice retool
other corporation, public body, or private individuals .upon his Right Hon. Friend. The Hon. Gento ts°11;11
whomsoever ; also, into the amount of the gross and the eluded by again saying that he would opcosee.r, 1 ",:e
net revenue, the expenses of managing the same, and the Mr. MACAULAY then rose and said --1.0 1,1
appropriation thereof ; also, into the authorities under to explain the precise nature of the vote Ito of 'o",',
which the respective dues are collected and applied ; about to give. I cannot vote for the In t°,4 ressto
also, to inquire into the circumstances attending the pur- Hon. Friend the Member for Finsbury, an," -thieit leo
chase of private lighthouses, and the state of the for not doing so are twofold. First, le g itsf ff
,
amounts of these purchases ; also, to ascertain all the motion in itself is objectionable, inasmuch ' Ifossetot
changes or improvements that have
,been made a censure upon a Secret Committee of the ais et,
in lighthouses, &c.. and the extent of relief which has Commons.—(Hear, hear.) My second reel ces,'elit
been afforded by reduction or alteration of dues in the even if the words of his motion did not 'nil) 'eier eIY
United Kingdom since 1834 ; and how far the recom- the Hon. Gentleman, when giving his noti,e% #007,,,
mendation of the Select Committee on lighthouses in with words which, even if it had been le f 911 lictiro
1834 have been carried out; also, to consider whether worded, must have conveyed to the minds °f foal s° e
any and what alterations can be made in the amount meter of censure.—(Hear, hear.) The tlf'g elosseebte
of the light and other dues, and into the management stood thus—it called the attention of ti-erretieer
of the same, for the relief of the shipping of the country. the evasive and unsatisfactory nature of the $1 ea roe
Mr. LIDDELL said it was not his intention to raise mittee, and then went on to move, 84c. . ofteY
any discussion on the motion of the Hon. Gentleman the ceedings, as every body knows, a motion 15,apiletes
Member for Montrose, but he begged to remind him that sider d as explained by the speech of the it e
mod
the Committee which sat on the subject, of which who makes it ; and in this manner a sPeecc,ioeb °bit
the Hon. Member for London was the Chairman, had thought to criminate a motion ; but how 17# OE?
not allowed this matter to escape them. He did not see strong must this impression become when t 000 it
that the Hon. Gentleman could obtain any further in- not only strong, but the motion itself as it ''', Osofino
formation than was to be found in the report of that the paper, is a species of censure?—(frear'the° lei'
Committee. ground, if that were all. I could not vote fore eliclotoe
Mr. HUME said, that he had read the report to of the Hon. Member. I believe the Commit on /'itte,:
which the Honourable Gentleman alluded, and also duty honestly.—(Hear, hear.) From my ceesilli:'
the report of the Committee on Shipwrecks, both ledge of the Members who composed that ~,perY
of which alluded incidentally to the subject. But I believe they conducted themselves in a 03.7 we °efts
the object which he (Mr. Hume) had in view was a left no room for censure. And moreover on On °oo°
financial one, and neither of those Committees di- to be particularly cautious of passing censure sre/ pd'
rested its attention to this view of the subject. committees, because the members of the° dittPtl
The Motion was then agreed to. their very nature, and from a sense of pehli° into, toe!
POST-OFFICE ESPIONAGE. eluded from making statements, or enteral _ sau.ool
Oa the motion of Mr. T. DUNCOMBE the order of
the day for the adjourned debate on the Post-office in- circumstances which make their justificationeor t ,r,'
defence.—(Hear, hear.) These reasons OP .t,Vi
We es
quiry was read. mind decisive against voting for the Mnt' gee:cot!,
Mr. M. MILNES said that he did not know that he posal has likewise been made that a Corattoyel' oiO'
should have intruded on the House in this debate, but be appointed to inquire whether or not it hsio Of ail'
for the accident that he had lately travelled through the continue the present Factice. Why. Sil,l-ent °(110f1
countries in which the unfortunate events referred to there is no need whatever for the lionappoin;"- e-a li'l
in the debate had occurred, and he had observed the un- Committee—the subject is ripe for leg'sia•il tn`set/i
happy effect produced on the minds of the people in hear)—and to a great extent I agree ",.15 stib),eat
foreign countries by these unfortunate occurrences.-- Member for Finsbury that leeislation on tiar alitieitli
(Hear, hear.) He had observed that there prevailed necessary and desirahle.—(Hear, hear.), De), 4
the utmost suspicion and the most painful surmises at- have at present very little doubt discussili, la' de's
tached to the conduct of this country—(Hear, hear).— my opinion as to the principles on which ta be slaieil,
Nel Surmises not the less painful because he knew them to be guided. I cannot conceive how it l
the poll t,at,
be unfounded—suspicions not the less obnoxious be- that there ought to be any difference in moil trefi 0
cause he knew they were absurd.—(Hear, hear.) between the way of treating a letter in its transit
re 9 pler
(There was considerable talking in the House, and the the post and after it has been received 11 to flici fit
Hon. Gentleman paused for a moment. The Speaker whom it is addressed. The letter address eat se
tiet,ti
repeatedly called out " Order, order, at the bar.") It much my property—to the very same exte 0 ori,li.,
had long been the privilege ann the hcnour of this coun • the same limitations—when in the meil'heagr 5,0,e.
try that it had afforded refuge and asylum to those who has been delivered to me.—(Hear.) 4' Aki".ii r,-et
were obliged to leave their own country, for political consideration, I can see no reason for InAtt ol'ilettio
differences or political oppression.—(Hear, hear.). He tinction. Both cases are, in point of I:l;',oevfter Do
thought that there was no more gratifying retrospect in party, precisely alike. The very same 'e #5 'is t 5,
"
the history of this country than this,—that from the time attaches to the perusal of my letter be 1)10%0)
when Elizabeth gave refuge to these who fled from the delivery—the exposure of my secrets takes oelio „foot
tyranny of Philip the Second, and from the persecution , one case as well as in the other. As te P 010 1/ttil
of France, England received with open arms tage, there is the same chance that tbe Pto tbebet 1.,
the onpressed and persecuted from all nations— derive benefit and useful information fri(ijiat ljeler
and in the present day without distinc- which has been delivered to-day, as front' the ou "is rtf
tion Liberals, Carlists, Italians, and Poles. to be delivered to morrow. The right r seiettese,,i,
When he taw painful contests taking place beween this his letter is subordinate to the claims in :oteiellfiorece
country and France, and when he hear the Fench one ease as wel as in the ote. The, aed 50,0.
Minister getting up in his place, and asserting r that, opening a man's letter, sealing h
itr up agslos 0., betel
as far as he knew, that the communication by po ;t was ing it, so that he may never know what a tasiesor
absolutely secure, and when he saw that the English perfectly understand. In the same Sieoleit: affr1:10::i1.000
Government could not make the same assertion, he was ful to hire a servant who can pickft
led to the conviction that England had obtained through copy other persons' letters.--(Hear, he'.l o'e 110 600
the continent an injurious reputation. When he heard position.) It may be useful and conYenie rits sal coo'
in the streets of Germany songs sung on this subject, it the whole, justifiable and beneficial ?
agab he
„to
was no consolation to him to see his Right Hon. Friend point out to me a case in which a letter, ' . est
l'eo i,i l
the head of the Home Department the hero of the fairly delivered to the rightful owner, 11:5)1 vi:iorr°r
fable—(Great laughter)-.:although he believed that vetted to the same use and convenience'oaeine ;Ift' te
no Government was less inclined to interfere with a power with the Secretary of State of 5 , 0,04 tl;3,
the liberty of the subject than that of the Right Hon, to open any letter, but I would reettirdtall leo' 0 ,ils
Baronet. Yet lie thought what had taken place was certain time, that letter, which contirmee, it is )I,as
not calculated to allay the suspicion that had been ex- the property of the person to who-sod 0 h'i't
cited towards him. The wife of Gamer must ha above dressed (unless it was to be "tied to ./
suspicion—(Laughter)—and so must her Majesty's Mi- cial proceeding), should be fotwarregoreie;ao
nisters—(Continued laughter)—but if she had not been with a stamp on the back of it, °l'm. SlOtellltrilr
able to answer the plainest question in the simplest Eng- that it bad been opened by the Prtar o't'aigf is'
lish—(Great laughter)—he feared that that Right Hon. (Loud cries of " Hear, hear.) I maY,l'ibiel;•
,;iecee'
Lady could not have remained above suspicion. No that might change my opinions, hut.' tecre lielfoll`}
doubt a great degree of the unpopularity attached to her ciple- is a sound one. lam aware thin priacitete°,/
Majesty's Government was owing to the want of their conveniences from the adoption of this0 5;10' '
not having met it in the first instance with simplicity and there it might be desirableand 'll as e., the
and candour. He did believe if the question had been procure other means, but we are rm„ at li'teert car
met without difficulty or mystery; when the question was this House and as natives of this cenntriltersh sr,'
first brought forward by the Hon. Member for day to begin arguing the question whet.icirisse 404,
Finsbury, it would have saved a great deal Nees to be obtained by adopting the Pirli`lopotto'f'li e
of the pain which had been inflicted on the country. suing the designs of an arbitrary an cries, ,orti°,,So";
If his Right Hon. Friend, instead of investing the subject meet, are or are not proper.--(Log`,., thalzereece" 0,
with all kinds of difficulty, had simply asserted what the •
hear," and cheers.) Should we vsetr'ir-e the sees •,
real circumstances were, and declared the matter of pionare and cruelty which existed b " adeastaf;ly %et'
opening the letters of M. Mazzini and others had no con- although it was there found not 0n13:,, 0040. rota,
flexion with his immediate Parliamentary duties, but as the politicians of the day contende iht 000145'4
was an act of a compulsoi y nature. He was asked and sary ? When I said the other nigseees f,' not
compelled to sign these warrants. For his part, how- the torture had been in some inst`._..., detLei table
ever, he did not see why the Right Hon. Baronet was tageouse there werecries of no, butlii;ts°l:BOteletivratS rid;
called on to sign the warrants at all. The Act of Par- but, Sir, the question is are we Bog t the he: of 11ot';
liament requires only one of her Majesty's principal Se- perience which we have, toanfSra;,-.llo6adeentreillshojeositirt":.:.s,
cretaries of State to sign the warrant, and he thought it we derive from the security
would hare been much betler had Lord Aberdeen life—to trust that no unfair deara' it roefilocee.is ri
taken the matter upon himself, for
his course of us—for a system which thoteTitt eonr!li #l'.° „t t,,,,
had been pursued, Lord Aberdeen would have been be attended with utility, destroYs t."i. a 13' boo' 'OOll
leathln st at ilic
able to give an answer when the question was and security.—(Hear, hear.) . suck 4 OSC tlf, 4,
first mooted, and whether satisfactory or not, brought in, founded on princieu, , beendil; that. foe,
it would have appeared, in a great degree, the ,to the House—to such a Bill Iwo etiesti :r elootalt,
public indigation against the Government in this parti- my sanction. Another part of th„ecq_.` genliote (fife;
cular. Suspicion had been allowed to grow up—misre- relates to the complaint of the II ":115t died or.lo vet
presentations had been allowed to grow up, with the bury. I must declare my opinion_Lr oleare, tif efeatis,
determination, on the other side, not to set anybody man is entitled to have that mater gene' been ts /
right. The consequence had been, that at this moment hear.) A Member of Parliamet.,rs gre? ii, el::', ;i
thrre was r most general and painful feeling pervading Home, end tells you that his let'ecre `tor 6eecele
C1..-f cor,otry v-Ith rsgare to CI a-costlon beFor Co- ;"1 fl,e'r trrrtTf ti7rer'7l' the TY--t, ti;..,ee 17,
,e oig been
'I .:: 7-:_,it_.:l. : c.r:Ger.t:ensEa atsolostP. pea t so 1
(iiear, hear.) -14
ese may say that a, _ Riglo . whititt..e.e
injurious ; but, Sir, after what no not sear t'testre,
man has said upon other eases, 145.,,,..(1-1;a be 5,101,'„e
it would do to speak out upone ra, it eo.o4`fienevieecrr,
defy any human being to tell me " a;
for the '..vilorrfollii'ai
with any danger to the State,,er
opening of the letters of the. %twee 10 "but %Tejon',
'Tiosest:edeAlit-lelfiellietell'•1;1;t man to say that he had never
hear.) There is another cireurg_e ore,
sus Wee)
attach much importance
earteares t, straly, tea vg irell
strikes me forcibly, which
dealt furl' 10 0 br
the Government have not
tion• "li°ss,leiliell'4
and which requires explana
in this ison. fe.'t,eo.
to grant a Commitftseier
year. it seemed but
the
far
shtohaelohliebestiet4tna Igeri(si
who brought forward tue smy rec ittee be i,e,
as far a eomin e i too f,
of that Committee; for,
_il a u olio
be
.1
I have scarcely ever Itl,!,°_`o3, ing eel, Abe
pointed by the House of Co
thematter
matter f0r.... Ile 90ag ",
Member who brought
o?hme
sill teroc't'suoild Wrea9c,iiiiigiiarre!
e;”
mforemabnedr oobftaiint_e_d
(ntheear, e
on a new and le '1 to he4j
constitute this Cornmitte
~ ~. fairness ,
~.,..ht
of 0..
ciple, and it was saidabatee'"aeouser,
n"rtiita
itLio satsro,,!
Hon. Member, who s :,"_"
0 ' VIII .4 hl
Member re tehNeeltijitrieeScie, fOrar iripClssl,lltifili,),‘
eluded ; every
not vembei owe ose et Government was liitev" , onderg , for e . iste,..
hnon• sent fra ii oete
at othatry
Member the
investigation, ue efstei oitnh eveti.of
tli d. . e
; stiee and man 11P- r the r 1
this great show of en gen.
aentiestitution 040 ?t) 0
were Members of it. heThii:ell°eratiPseredoausre,asrnr,jo itliqo?
voted with the Right I. and COn Tot ill il'.' to 1 ,
CCilliarlY TW a Com to .011,
mittee w" to be so
P to constituteeloW did to
11°%1 'Pet
ciples that the construction sea it 00. t,
the Government had r two.) were 3 t ell. beto ,
the): ierot aerete eteo.,
House of Lords.—(
Did they act on
utnleflue:ePtioinceolPinieraon!re„...- f iree'l'4ll';
carry out in the
..eri or partr_w_,,, and °_,..ltatra`iet,'
Committee was eomPu'e, dininistrati7r not cui, 5 wl;
sailors.—(Hear. hear:)
time safe bed 3 one to ber,
not. was I...l'atteroie,
l'The reas°ll9l,oas hr: bete do'l
theth e latec o matnn
idt
toc.fe pt
hr eesreen. :tie
ticouuld
as possible. If just6overnments' inl as tbeeiji.isieetiosr,e
Members of the two ) But as a°eefel e%-ten•:.te4
there?—(Hear, hear.)
all
sii that car. forgot
toa -wee
into the House of Loao
was etalrelehear sof the
be ter;
that, unlessroot' ,eill eees. is. eluding particular parttes
it does appear to rue
of the s' ess " stenv-eliev or.
tion of the constructionn 4 uneferneircore for S (jeett)
picrunvder theseeonds sited/ChOgse
moved from my mind. e
some g` oor „(i ay
of Lords, the sus
letters ha itinoe tees! to ta
enr to 0 - vg been
ent 00 t,
e Taber may blt,e'nai ce 04013
hear.) The 1r0n.."
"e -- f ail er'—iliegil fie
be ° a ti
—r..3 I believe him to %pi
certainly
that M
ht haV jos
gonie Secretary, which /
and yet representations Lot ha"

no.y few woro:s upon t;le tv,6 e;ii:sions in which the
question had been brought before the House. The first
division was connected with foreign affairs, and the
:,econd was connected ss ith the opening of the lettzrs of
the Hon. Member for Finsbury. With regard to the
first, he had thought it to be his duty to propose to her
Majesty's Government, on the previous night, a question
connected with it, and to a certain degree he thought the
answer was satisfactory. It was satisfactory, not only
to himself, but to all whom he had consulted on the sub-
ject. The answer was, that the opening of Mr. Mazzini's
letters was not connected with the unfortunate expedi-
tion of the Bandiera family. So far, therefore, as Lord
Aberdeen was concerned, he thought the explanation was
satisfactory, inasmuch as the opening of the letters was
shown to have no connexion with that unhappy baud of
men. At the same time he should say that the whole of this
proceeding involved a very grave and serious question,
and one that affected the general and foreign policy of
the Government. In fact, if this proceeding was to be
recognised, the. Austrian Government had nothing to do
but get the sanction of the English Government to
invade Italy. But in the case now under consideration
that act had been committed by no diplomatic right.
It might be that this was part of a great scheme of
foreign policy ; but when the facts went forward to the
world, to the English people, that this act had had' the
sanction of the British Government, it must be a source
of pain not only to the Government, but to every
Member of the House. He should also beg to say he
conceived it would have been the duty of Lord Aberdeen
to have given public notice in the newspapers and by
other means of the fact that the English Govern-
ment were aware of the existence of this conspiracy,
and determined to defeat it; and if that had been done,
he (Mr. Milnes) felt assured that this unhappy expedi-
tion would never have taken place.—(Hear, hear.) An-
other fact connected with this subject had come before
the House, and it was one which the House would not
find as easy to dispose of as the others—he meant the
charge that had been made against the Government by
the Hm. Member for Finsbury, of opening his own
letters.—(Hear, hear.) They all had had experience of
how very indefinite were the privileges of foreigners;
but that had no reference to the opening of the Hon.
Member for Finsbury's letters, and therefore he (Mr.
Milnes) hoped that lion. Members on his side the
Howe would not refuse the Hon. Member for Finsbury
what he asked —(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Milnes) did
think that lion. Member had a right to get a definite
answer from the Govei nment as to whether a warrant
had been issued for opening- his letters.--(Cheers front
the Opposition benches.) The Hon. Gentleman knew
that his name had berg mixed up with persons who had
been suspected, and who had come under the sentence of
the law.—
Mr. T. DUNCOMBE.—Name them.
Mr. MILNES—One gentleman Do an individual for

___?~=