The Sun.
London, England, 1842-04-13 00:00:00

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"of reitigating this great evil. There was also another
the
wilitberto they had spoken only of Election Committees,
Vern . 'sued also to speek of parties to Private Bills ; before
wotaoritte‘-1 on these Bills, Counsel acted in the same manner.
iiips;...t three wreald come and go on with the business for some
Cettesei le!' they would gradually leave, and one of the junior
to Ge,... Would get up and speak—not of the business that aught
Intetri'Y tlae Committee, but, as Members of that House
theseb" 14',
wes did, he speaks against time—Wear, hear)_
Isl)e asting the time of Hon. Members who had no right
1 ,
14 -•led on to do such additional duty. He contended that
"If 14barls
tetewere bound to declare that they would be present
te,a,e St to last," an exceedingly proper declaration, if they
Lleiirniged to attend in the Committee-room at a certain
ls4Voa_yay there without quitting the room till the Spea'ter
smi'°P. Chair, was it fair that Gentlemen who were confoundedly
15e,,14,4-s.-( Hear, hear, and laughter)—for wasting their
efilllsilould not attend ? There really was a monstrous waste
114._'" on Private Bills, and it would be an immense benefit to
treiel.rt'es concerned in them, if both Counsel and Members
os.s.thauoiltnd to stay in the room till they had settled the b usi-
tolid t.. had called
them together. He should wish if he
P1y..," Prevent Counsel from speaking at all, and pursue a
tik...etinilar to that of quarter sessions, where evidence was
of r and the opinion of the Counsel asked as to points
Zif necessary. He believed that all Counsel before
e‘zsttees of that House, whether for Private Bills or
i
the "',),al, did nothing, but misrepresent the case on each side to
siarsitiet of their ability.—( Hear, hear.) He believed that it
tlatighir dittY: es he was sure it was their practice, and he
(L.,
~they would. not be feed unless they adopted it.—
tlis,''rms "ear. ) In a conflict between a wealthy body such as
Ohl', rporatiou of London and a poorer interest, it was impos-
tspwjaY what confusion might not be introduced by the
5i4,41 the purse, by employing three or font. Counsel ; the
tsts,„ party Would be driven to the wall, or forced to make an
Irk 'arable compromise. That was done every day ; and it
"4:'4 . PRetice of - which '.c (instant complaints were made. He
Aty :re, however, that it was difficult to come to a satisfac-
Irtluustment upon the question.. He confessed that he did
Sia
IN arty see his way in the matter, but he was equally eer-
e74,ll t the Right Hou. Gentleman who had brought the sub-
...!er the consideration of the House, deserved their best
,414171erigmeuts. There was now a rule in force to the effect
so),:',° Counsel only should be heard before a Committee.
tkipjt appeared to him that it would be desirable, whether
sito;Me were continued or not, that two Counsel should be
tsirlled to remain in each Committee, and not be allowed to
Ny 24* place to place during the proceedings, in the same
hies Lord Denman had prevented Counsel from running
Iletc‘,o art to 'Jolla in Westminster Hall. He believed that
by sae his. Lordship had taken upon that subject had given
1% al satisfaction. He hoped the House would take the
.rlokittestect of the proceedings before Committees into its
17se,Oiet'ausideration ; and if any improvement were suggested
what proposed by his Hon: and Learned Friend, he
ILVI he would not refuse to it his support.
-N STUART WORTLEY wished to- declare his
I.,ths,li,tlatp,sviction that there was one method of diminishing
44 -before Committee far more effectual than any which
144*N. and Learned Gentleman had recommended. The
!ltigitl-lithich he would suggest would be to establish a more
'se ry_and coeseetent tribunal —(Loud cries of " Hear,
Istiiii)i He had the greatest possible respect for the authority
lisiNt *pinions of the Right Hon. Baronet at the head of her
ki._-1-'s' Government, and he should be disposed to look upon
114,7asure of which he was the author with the utmost par-
NL_sbut -he should own that he saw reason to become more
44,7 e convinced every day that in the experiment he had
'ttli,e had failed in obtaining the object which he had in
altar, hear.) The Right Hon. Baronet, with all his
quid not perform impossibilities; and, for his part,
t,..
"" aontinced that it would be impossible, by any con-
‘l4• 4
-at design, to establish a sufficiently competent tribe-
the trial of election petitions, so long as they confined
Res entirely to the materials to be found in that House.
ad, cries of " Hear, hear.") The Hon. Gentleman op-
had talked of the enormous expense of the proceedings
to Committees, arising in an especial manner from
icutraCted nature of the proceedings. Now he would un-
eto say that if a scheme could be devised which would
We constitution of Election Committees upon a satis-
Sit footing, and which would renderlthem competent ju-
')g...ttibunals, they would diminish expense, not merely
ling the proceedings, but by preventing the agi-
IN
i!,
.the questions that came before them.—( Hear, hear.)
"web would never have been brought before a really
:,tal competent tribunal were brought before Election
Sl.:lesal: because parties thought it worth their while to
lei chance; and those Committees, without any ade-
IStme.gal knowledge, were called upon to act on the most
1/4.114;e.0t0ry decisions. He could not allow this discussion to
Iltl/4-`triut protesting against any attempt being made to
tfdaP the present system, and he hoped the House would
*is:the grievances complained of by remodelling the tribunal.
''.V'CONNELL felt called upon to take a part in this
IL` 014 as he had been himself alluded to in the course of
1,114 e begged that it should be mostidistinctly understood
kit% blade no complaint of the able and Hon. Gentlemen
loll: had engaged as his Counsel. He had engaged them
i4l,ti.._ full knowledge that he could not have the whole of
dis'473,' canoudlctlhaatffohred must
giusttvaekehhimis. chanceThereas thoadhowbeemnucah
sltiderstanding between him and them, and they
Ns watthfully and honourably performed their part.
.' as an evil that was great in proportion to the
1.
'" ee of Counsel. As a member of the bar he repudiated
that Air. Harrison could have made use of the excuse
to him. His best excuse for not attending to the
for which he had been retained would have been that
actually at the time employed elsewhere • but if he
Ikleitt actually so employed, then he was certainly without
'°e his conduct. The Hon. Gentleman had talked of
it&_se being lesiened by having junior Counsel to examine
`'eSses. Now, it was well known that the most iris-
ill*t Patt of a case was the examination of witnesses. That
toil however competent Hon. Gentlemen might be to
...arnendments in the law, these were matters which
ktr4elnsively in the province of those who were
Vi. attendance in the Courts.—(Hear, hear.) He
toen
Nr much afraid that the experiment of the Right
eiCronet had totally failed. The question now asked was
Zkoisc:' Were the politics of the Committee, but what were
Nemel of the Chairman. lie hoped the Hon. Gentleman
l'rould not content himself with giving these excellent
01, t Would come forward with a plan for a different tri-
delegated authority was' called the House ; but it
1/41!10,ktbe House ; the public eye was not upon it. He
14. ze plan was first to have a register of the voter, so
old be clearly ascertained who had a right to
L - i certain time, and let him vote at the en-
ion, ion, whatever became of him in the mean time.
eet)l4 there should be a petition after the election, let
i iw• before a tribunal, which from its knowledge of
iL "14 evidence, would bo competent to pronounce
1/41664
k t,;stroribunialf, the
rmembers
hof whiwere etchedwtohuold be taken
Judgesof
hezoll'mod let them be paid according to the value of their
This would do away with all the gambling and spe-
Ashich at. recent characterised such proceedings. He
the :Hon. Gentleman opposite would turn his
4i2to the subject, and he (Mr. O'Connell) would be
k.4"xender him his assistance to remedy this enormous,
iZtplalv lien. Friend had called it, this confounded mischief.
vtik; •0. STANLEY said he thought much of the ex-
vt 'nutted in these Committees arose from the deficient
1/4.Nai„.•registration, and a want of simplification in the right
and he was of opinion that if the right of frau-
kN,;:oe Registration Courts were to be amended, the pro-
Srs ',paid be much simplified.
t,„NiLIONBY said he agreed with what had fallen
S-14,0. Member who had just sat down, but he would
sytstle:at er back than the Hon. Member id, and aim lit
kid 0.14,7 election.. The question which had been proposed
Qlsliri"• Member for Ipswich was one of great difficulty,
‘4l'l, ea:aot think they would find many Members in that
1/4,llshtliv-uAletent to do justice to its importance. He did not
ILI try 'toll. Member would gain anything by dividing ; he
''ssolitgest that he should change his motion, and move for
Nee tee„. They were bound, as far as they could by law,
11,,:i,litit jsae great expenses incurred in these peti.
'l/41 ter i rse did not think that the plan of the Honourable
sits tir Ipswich would have that effect. As long as ta-
Qlse :Ppreciated, so long would they have the race run
iekl„,tbe highest attainments, and he believed it would
„.Num for that House to prevent such a proceeding.
,cs,olitilve
be
ee
the
honlye permitteede.o
Why,
demorrnenCot Committee,
1/4. vZietilate on the 'leensi;(tjheeteo which Committeesy might ex-
p„anuld exact an enormous fee for their attendance on
Okrrillltees.—( Hear.) He thought if a Committee were
!1.1(.4.t° investigate the subject before which Counsel and
ISNJ be examined, that an intermediate course might be
sliktkalish would lessen the expense of the parties. He
144:1;.1t,Ivantages to the members of the bar were but
.as
He
he aht 0
ptehde
the interests
Moefmthheer pwuolaullidc
I§` ~tae bee regarded.dand
I 4
b Motion'
N and would ask for a Committee to investi-
V,iect.
iss'ITZROY said, although he agreed with what had
(41 the; Hon. Member fur the West Riding of York-
bri• S. Wortley), with respect to the hopeless-
lV,ection Committees being satisfactory to the House
; Ntblies as long as they were composed of the materials
t' is 4 eY at present were ; yet he thought that the opinion
N't: °use had been given so decidedly in favour
\:ti resent mode of constructing those tribunals,
IN;tt °n. klember, who would move in the present Par-
!A., of° have the mode set aside, would have very little
Se success. He considered a better mode of construct-
10.iiietriblinals would be, by putting in the chair of each
Vtoe a man of distinguished ability at the bar. 'lwo
oe'ut would be particularly desirable from the adoption of
Nsitt),'.3e. In the first place, Gentlemen who were placed
te„".i'tees were not generally well aware of the
eit'alence. Much evidence, attended with no practical
Ityll'lliat
~giren before Committees, which would not be the
l‘s,Naished lawyers presided. In the second place oh-
often mooted 40 often mooted by Counsel merely for the purpose
Na, .
. It ud it was well known that Counsel frequently
i }gilt the frivolity of objections which they induced the
14,4,,,kirt.0 entertain. If the Chairmen were eminent law.
10, q',.,, objections would be entertained.
ti.,L a CCIAIERSET said that a fair trial had not been
ktst
Sit: fsh,Fpexperiment of the Right Hon. Baronet. the
s w)e, larnworth. He could not concur in the opinion
Nitttse: Knight to be selected as the Chair men of Election
istl*t.,; Men of ability and eminenee were not always
t,hthe ‹trticularly when there was a great number of Corn-
OA he feared
and should a junior Counsel be selected
c,„6,,, 7,fe,ared the result would be that some of the older
kiit4t:ll:t 4: jut; an. 'e
showingtpractised
before
their o junior
b Committeesreth
brethren,
would d
thustak e
1/4 110-e would be teris'•able fromj the plan s'iewested.
t tic 011:1 the Hon. Gentleman's proposition would be most
liNit,i to the suitors, and he did not think that
.1/4,liii` ste„..a snore talent in the formation of the Committees.
1/4`Wrll, r%?veinent would require the whole machinery to be
k,..111t %o.; he expense of Counsel was not the only heavy
ttisNettl..°,!, and if the Hon. Member meant to interfere
Vli",§t, 'r in which parties should eons not their suits, he
,I,l4lSve,l,.eYond his present resolution, to which he must
yt,'lt. "`: as he believed it would not be of advantage to
.'44llY4l.Scoes
ivy fall ed .0 replied. He believed his resolution was
It 61 tit f tqUate to the end he proposed. He thought it was
S: res:liir.the Right Hon. Baronet to ask him if he would
Ihlte,fteae,.;?ll by the result of his own Election Committee.
(SSiIoL,'N,,4Y admitted that the plan of the Right Hon.
lit tics ttobert Peel) had failed, and the question both
VI% 6 and out of the House was now, What sort of a
lik`l, tiler you got ? if he was against you, it was con-
t, ' k,„.:114r..' was all up ; if with you, that it was all
liosthtia posse
being three of the Committee on one
SpOlhr:re on the other, it was well known that
\NO. these of the Chairman would decide all difficult ques-
r:litieresult of the Committee would be just according,
ik,t1,4,,N %b.'. If the Noble Lord (Lord G. Somerset) would
e,iwitqt iisto his consideration, he should be perfectly
I,,;ik,' 4, ,Is.experience and ability.—(Lord G. Somerset
ht,rl.l4l7abne the proposal. )—The Noble Lord shook his
\Netikitt hut ot accede ; he should, therefore, withdraw his
IVtitk bo,shotild be guided by the views he might hear
',at it di sides of the House in deciding whether he
kgt.ktis „again under their corsideration or not. He
,ttiit, 1M ,nitt unless they put in the Chair a gentleman of
V. tOtZ u.ie, they would never be enabled to have the pro..
Nile tliiraittees satisfactorily conducted.
Lt
4114,ttAkiseE, RS said, in his opinion the great evil was
I:sttlisi,`„), si,', were much too clever for the Judees.-
I,SsZess,"e opposing Counsel made different points,'
Nltllelle_or other the members of the Committee al-
si sas,s_ane4 . that point which favoured their own
•nitr.)

Sir 11. PEEL said that he certainly had been prepared,
from the notice of the Hon. Member for Ipswich, for a discus-
sion upon the merits of Election Committees. He had felt
surprised at some of the statements of Hon. Members. The
Hon. Gentleman who had preceded him had seemed to ques-
t tion the impartiality of the decisions whieh had been come to
in certain instances ; but there did not appear to be anything
in the facts to justify that suspicion. He hoped. the
House would not be governed by what the losing party said
of the proceedings of those Committees. Whatever tribunals
they appointed, he would venture to say the losers would corn_
' plain. They would always be apt to impute some improper
motive to those who had decided against them. With respect
to the appointment of a Chairman, he begged leave to say tnat
that was no part originally of his measure. It was a proposal
of the Noble Lord the Member for London, to which he (Sir
R. Peel) had acceded, merely from a wish that there should
be as much unanimity as possible upon such a subject. lie
confessed, however, that he had riot himself been satisfied that
the arrangement would he a good one. He hoped, however, the
House would nut lightly decide that lion. Members who tried
those petitions were nut actuated by perfectly honourable mo-
tives. He was perfectly confident, from what had been stated
by the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, that the Coin-
mittee of which he had been a member had decided impartially
and to the best of their judgment. He attached the more im-
portance to the admissions of the lion. Gentleman from his
respect for his private character.
Mr. CHILDERS did not mean to impeach the impartiality
of Members serving on Committees. He had only said that
they were not qualified to decide the questions that came before
them, and to sift the conflicting statements of Counsel.
Sir It. PEEL said, that he was surprised to hear that Coun-
sel were allowed to take any unwarrantable liberty, and that
Chairmen lead not the firmness to interfere in such CAWS.
Mr. EWART said, he did not understand the Him Mem-
ber to attribute any partiality to the Committee, but to their
inability to understand legal tines:ions. For his own past, he
did riot think that with regard to private Bills and those
Committees, they were as perfect as they should be, and that
with respect to the latter, they sh:suld have three Judges who
would control the Judges.—The motion was then withdrawn.
DRAINAGE AND FISHERIES (IRELAND) BILLS.
On the motion of Lord EaOT, the following Members
were appointed to form Select Committees on these Bills:
On the Drrinage Bill—Lord Eliot, Mr. Pigot, the Solicitor-
General for Ireland, Mr. Young, Mr. Morgan John O'Cun.
nell, Lord Claud Hamilton, Mr. More &Ferran, Colonel
Darner, Mr. William O'Brien, Mr. Christmas, Mr. French,
Sir Arthur Brooke, Mr. Caleb Powell, Viscount Newry, and
Viscount Clements. On the Fisheries Bill—Lord Eliot, Mr.
Slsiel, the Solicitor General for Ireland, Mr. O'Connell, Sir
Edmund Hayes, Sir William Somerville, Mr. Young, Sir
Robert Ferguson, Captain Jones, Mr. Villiers Stuart, Viscount
Courtenay, Mr. Alexander Murray, Viscount Adare, Mr.
Pigot.