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7:":7--...'"!!!........n.rnr.nernamwev.mmwmmowerevww.mos
theqvul:c°4nt Melville, the Chancellor of the Ex-
hut r, s►r George Clerk, and Sir George Cockburn,
the ilft,„eterljtvve yesterday with' the Duke of Wellington, at

The Marquis of ANGLESEA said that he had a peti-
tion in his hand to present, one of the most important that
had yet been presented to their Lordships, which was
signed on the 26th of January last, and the prayer was for
emancipation to the Roman Catholics. The petition itself
was grounded on two foundations ; the first rested on the
resolutions of the 69 Peers, in the year 1825, and the
second was founded on that paper known by the name of
the Protestant Declaration. The paper was signed by
more men of wealth, of talent, and of high respectability,
connected with that country, than probably any other
paper which ever was published: The petition was one of
such a nature that he would beg to have it read. It spoke
for itself. The petition was not signed by all the parties
who had signed the paper on which it was founded. The
document upon which the petition was founded was signed
by two Dukes, seven Alarquisses, 26 Earls, 11 Viscounts,
two Counts, 22 Barons, 52 Members of the House of
Commons, and upwards of two thousand Gentlemen of
rank and respectability, who were interested in the safety
aad security of the country. He felt every moment that
he took up their Lordships' time before he read the peti-
tion would be lost, for the language it conveyed was so
truly apt and proper, that he could not hope to convey
the sentiments in language of his own equal to what the
petition set forth.
A conversation now followed, respecting the regularity
or irregularity of any Noble Lord reading a petition as
part of a speech, in whicletord Ellenborough, Earl Darn-
, ley, and
-Lord Plunket, took a part. The latter Nobleman
said (and in this the other Noble Lords concurred) that,
according to the rules of the House, there could be no ob-
jection for the Noble Marquis to state, as his speech, and
at any length, the words of the petition.
The Marquis of ANGLESEA then read the whole of
the petition, after saying—.." I will read it as part of my
speech, my Lords, and I wish to God that it was my own
language." At the conclusion the Noble Marquis ;moved
that the petition do lie on the table.
On the question being put by the Loan CHANCELLOR,

The Marquis of LOND ON6ERRY rose.—My Lords,
I congratulate the House—l congratulate the country—
and, above all, I congratulate the Noble Marquis who has
just addressed your Lordships, that he should now come
down to the Hooke and make so honourable and manly
a declaration of his sentiments on this important subject ;
a declaration showing the great change in his sentiments
since he went to preside over that country. My Lords,
I admire the high moral character of the Noble Mar-
quis—l admire his honourable feelings—and I appre-
ciate his military knowledge ; but I own, in his politica
career, he has pursued a course of conduct which, in my
humble judgment, is very remarkable, connected with the
coutse that he had, up to the period to which I have allud-
ed, adopted. If the Noble Marquis supposes that the sen-
timents which he has lately expressed connected with the
proceedings for the suppression of the Catholic Associa-
tion—if he believes, I say, that he was speaking the senti-
ments and feelings of tire Catholics of Ireland, I beg to
aid that, to the correctness of that notion, I can never sub-
scribe ; for I believe, my Lords, that there was no wish—
not only in Ireland, but in England also—on the part of
the people to arrest the Bill in its passage which, a day or
two back, received your lordships' concurrence. I believe
my Lords, that there is not one Member in this House—
, nor one person in the country—who would wish to say
" Not content" to that Bill. The only thing that can save
the country from a repetition of those evils which have so
long afflicted Ireland is to pass such a Bill. By such
means a law will he established which will prevent any
meeting like that to which I have alluded from being
again formed. I have lately seen in the newspapers that
they will still assemble, and that they will not rest satis-
fied. Those expressions, my Lords, have really given me
considerable uneasiness and concern. I am sorry to hear
the Noble Marquis speak as be has done on the subject.
I look upon. the existence of these meetings, my Lords, as
most disastrous and fatal things to the peace and harmony
of the country )—lf 1 have expressed myself
stongly on this point, I have done so because I feel deeply
the importance attached to the subject. lam satisfied
that, from one end of Ireland to the other, there is a
general feeling of satisfaction at the Bill on the part of
those whose principles are in favour of the Roman
Catholics possessing all the civil rights to which they are
entitled. There is not one man, firm in these principles,
who does not hail with satisfaction and delight the Bill
which passed your Lordships' House on Tuesday, the ob-
ject of which is, to put an end for ever to one of the most
mischievous Associations, and, I may say, one of the
most unfortunate, that ever existed for Ireland.—(Cheers.)
The Marquis of ANGLESEA—I will detain your
Lordships but very few moments. Ti, Noble Marquis
who has just sat down, like almost every other person,
has totally mistaken me ox the subject to which he has
referred.—(Hear, hear.)—l beg to say, my Lords, that
there is ino man less friendly than I am to the Catholic
Association. -No one more closely watched their pro-
ceedings, when 1 had the honour of being in that
country—no one watches! with more anxiety to put his
finger upon any breach of the laws than I (lid ; and, if they
had disobeyed the laws, no one was more desirous than I
was of putting them down. My attention, my Lords, was
called to their proceedings—the attention of the Law- 0111-
cers of the Crown was likewise attracted to what was going
forward—not a debate occurred at which there were net
short-hand writers employed by Government—every dis-
-1 cussion was the subject of close investigation, in order to
discover whether any transgression of the laws occurred.—
I maintain, my Lords, and I wish to have it understood,
that, if there had been any violation of the Statutes, that I

wished to disperse that body ; and I now appeal to his Ma-
jesty's Ministers whether I am not stating that which is
correct. If the laws had been infringed, I should hive
had no difficulty in acting, and putting down that Asso-
ciation. The truth is, that no opportunity of noticing
that Assembly was omitted. The time will come, my
Lords, when I shall have an opportunity of explaining
myself respecting the part that I took when I was in that
country, but I cannot now allow any thing of a personal
description (as far as I am myself concerned) to he brought
forward, list by any possibility it might throw an impe-
diment in the way of completing that important measure
which his Majesty's Ministers have in contemplation.—
(Cheers.)—My Lords, if I were now at the head of the
Government in Ireland, and if I were sure that it was the
determination of his Majesty's Ministers not to pass a Bill
of relief (if any thing could have tempted me to have re-
mained in the situation which I had the honour of holding)
if, after this present Bill bad passed, I had been assured

that no Bill of relief would be passed, I should have im-
plored Ministers (as we understood) to let m'
Much as I dissapprove of the Association, I would ten
thousand times rather that the same body of men remained
undisturbed in open Court, with our short-hand writers
taking down every word they uttered, than that a discon-
tented body—and justly discontented body—should be dis-
persed over the face- of the empire, if no Bill of relief
should follow.—(Cheers )—I du not believe that there is
in the House any Noble Lord who can deny that the situa-
tion of the country requires a measure of relief. There is
nu man who can deny that a large majority in the country
believe that the measure would be for the benefit of all.
I believe, however, my Lords, that no measure of relief
would have been proposed had it not been for the exer-,
tions of the Catholic Association.—( Hear, hear.) I con-
demn many acts of the Association ; they have been vio-
lent, they have been personal—unjustly personal and abu-
sive; they have done all this—yet, let them be ever so
personal and vio;ent in their proceedings, they have effect-
ed much—they have accomplished great things, fur they
have certainly brought the Catholic Question to the state
in which it now is.—( Hear.) I say, my Lords, had the
Association never existed, the Catholic Question would not
have advanced to the station which it now occupies.—
(Hear.) On a future occasion I shall have an opportunity
of explaining the course I took in the administration of
affairs when I had the honour of holding the situation that
I held in Ireland. I shall lay before your Lordships a
simple statement of facts, and, I trust, to the satisfaction
of the House ; but at present I refrain, lest it might tend
to impede the progress of the measure which is about to be
brought before your Lordships.
Earl DARNLEY wished to say a few words. It was
far from his intention to throw, directly or indirectly, any
thing in the shape of impediment on the measure which
the Noble Duke and the Administration had i❑ contem-
plation. If Noble Lords thought that no one would have
said " Not content" to the Bill which had just passed,
provided no measure of relief was intended to follow, they
deceived themselves.—(Cheers.)—Much as he had to re-
gret in the proceedings of the Catholic Association, much
as Noble Lords had spoken against it, yet, from the exer-
tions which. that body had given to their cause, nobody
could doubt that they had advanced it. It had been as-
serted—but he begged leave to deny the accuracy of the
remark—that the Association had retarded their cause in
the opinions of the people of this country.—(clear, hear.)
—He was fully satisfied that the Catholic Association had
done infinitely more good than evil, and would contend
that, bad the Association never existed, Ireland would
have been in a much worse condition than it was at the
present moment. The best and most effectual way to
put an cud to the Association would have been to have
allowed the claims long ago ; and he now trusted that
no improper appeal to the feelings of the people would
prevent the Noble Duke from carrying into effect a mea-
sure so well calculated to produce peace and unanimity
in Ireland.

Lord GOSFORD observed that he certainly should have
said " Not content" to the Bill which had just passed, if
he had not believed that a Relief Bill would follow. Under
any other circumstances, he should not have sanctioned
that Bill.—(Hear.).—lt was the price that was paid for
one of the greatest measures ever produce! in this country
—a meAure which he was persuaded would bring peace to
Ireland.

Several Noble Lords, after Lord Gosford sat down,
called on Lord PLUNKET. His Lordship then rose, and
spoke nearly as follows:—Nay Lords, I should not have
thought it necessary to take any part in the discussion
which has arisen in consequence of the petition which the
Noble Marquis has presented to your Lordships from the
Protestant Noblemen and Gentlemen of Ireland. I should
not have risen to take any part in this discussion, I say,
my Lords, if it had not happened that I have been so very
particularly alluded to by the Noble Lord on the cross-
bench, on a former evening, and had not my conduct been
so severely commented upon, in respect of the part that
I took in the situation which I had the honour of hoLling.
My Lords, I think I owe it to myself not to let pass those
observations without making sonic remarks. I own, my
Lords, that I was the more surprised at the observations
which fell from the Noble Lord in my absence, as I had
been present in this House, I believe, on the day preced-
ing, when a discussion took place with respect to the As-
sociation. Being then present, and the Noble Lord being
also is the House, I was ready to answer any charge
which might be brought against me ; but the Noble Lord
did not then attribute any negligence in the persons who
formed that Bill (the Unlawful Association Bill of 1825),
nor any neglect in the persons who formed •the Go_
vernment iu putting it into execution. It Was,
therefore, some surprise to me, on the following
night, to find that the Noble Lord had made those very
severe, and I will take the liberty of calling them those
unjust observations, which he did not think necessary to
make in the course of the discussion at which 1 was
present. My Lords, before I proceed more particularly
to animadvert on what has fallen from the Noble-Lord, I
beg leave to say a few words on the present Bill which has
passed your Lordships' House. lam not sure that 1 agree
in my view of the necessity of passing it, for any of the
reasons which have been urged by Noble Lords who have
spoken on the subject, although I entirely agree with the
measure for the suppression of the Catholic Association.
(Mean.)—l think the measure is necessary fur public tran-
quillity. But although necessary for public tranquillity,
yet the principles in which I concur in passing the Bill,
are not exactly those which have swayed others—vie.,
that it is necessary to pass it for the purposes of safety. I
asu satisfied; from the great measure which is to be intro-
duced, that it never will be necessary to act upon this Bill.
(Hear, hear.)—Nevertheless, I think it right that this
Bill should be passA, as it will prevent the possibility of
the revival of that Association.—( Hear.) The views that
I have taken are views not exactly the same that others
entertain. I do not think, as some Noble Lords have
stated, that the Catholic Association has led to any dis-
turbances, or any breach of the public peace. Ido not
think that any such object was intended by the Associa-
tion; nor any revolutionary motives at the bottom of their
proceedings. The object is of a different kind. My
Loids, in consequence of a feeling of a common grievance
which has annoyed all ranks of the people of Ireland, the
people—in pursuit of a common object, the relief from
that grievance—have allowed, by a necessary course
of things, a body to have au ascendancy to wield the
energies of the State, which ascendancy has lucre ised
with the wants of the people. The body had grown to a
condition in which the original foundations of Govern-
ment were usurped. They had the people in Ireland at
their command. They could mould them as they pleased,
they could make them subservient to their own purposes,
be they good or.be they bad. Such a state of things I be-
lieve to be incompatible with the safety of the State, and

I concur with Noble Lords' that it is essential to have the
accompanying measure. When that measure is passed,
this Bill will never be required to be enforced. I take the
measure as an accompanying measure, and 1 do most sin-
cerely return my thanks to the Noble Duke who has
brought it forward. I think it essential to the public
safety. We cannot but perceive that the Association has
exercised a power and authority seldom or never witness-
ed. They have exercised a degree of despotism never ex-
perienced in the annals of history—a despotism over public
opinion, of which no parallel can be found..—(Hear.)—
They have, it is true, now voluntarily dissolved themselves.
I give them credit for it, and I think it shows that they
are grateful for the measure which was announced from
the Throne. It would be ungracious, to say the least of
it, but I will not suppose it of them, to attempt to avoid
the laws. But I know, from my observations of human
nature, that no persons ever relinquished power and re-
turned to all the privity and obscurity of private life in a
state of complete contentment and satisfaction. I think
it very likely indeed the persons over whom they ruled
may partake, in some degree, of those feelings of disap-
pointment, and some little dissatisfaction may be ex-
perienced on both sides. The one party will pro-
bably feel a degree of disappintment, when the
power which they had acquired by agitation and
perseverance shall comparatively be taken from them,
and not be highly gratified at the indifference with
which their claims at last have been allowed. The other
party will be still more disappointed. Many persons of
that class had formed too high views of the rights and
privileges which they claimed exclusively as their own,
and will be higlily mortified to find that Catholics and
Protestants are now to be placed on nearly the same foot-
ing. Difficulties, it must be expected, will arise, and a
measure such as that now passed, therefore, is absolutely
necessary—not, I will say, for putting down exclusively
the Catholic Association, but for arming the Government
with power to subdue and Suppress all illegal associations,

tween 1824 and 1i525 the Catholic Association had as-
sumed such a tone and was pursuing such a line of pro-
ceeding as to become an object of alarm to the Govern-
ment of the country ; and, under these circumstances,
those at the head of the Government found it necessary
to resolve on some measure for suppressing the Associa-
tion. I, as Attorney-General for Ireland, was requested
to lend my assistance in drawing up a Bill to that effect.
A Bill was accordingly drawn up, which I never looked
upon as a legitimate measure, and which I should not
have given my consent to but in the expectation that
some ulterior proceedings for the removal of Catholic
disabilities would be brought forward. And here I must
be allowed to appeal whether I did not, in the other
House, on bringing forward the Bill, state, distinctly
and unequivocally, that it ought to be followed by the
other measure so essential for the peace and well-being of
the country, on the strength of which I supported that
Bill? In preparing the Bill I was assisted by the then
Attorney-General of England, the Noble Lord now on
the Woolsack, and by the present Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer, then Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant. My Noble
Friend and myself were not called upon to frame a Bill
such as would please the taste of the Noble Lord who has
so unjustly arraigned my conduct. We were not called
upon to frame a Bill that would put down public meet-
ings lawfully assembled for the redress of grievances and
oppression, or .other institutions for promoting education
or other useful purposes. I would have scorned to lend
my aid in framing a Bill to put down any. society which
was lawfully assembled for the redress of grievances. The
Bill was passed, but the grievances remained. The so-
ciety continued its sitting with little or no alteration, and
persisted in asserting their right to assemble for the redress
of public grievances. It was lawful for them to do so ;
their sittings were continued from time to time, for the
purpose of affording fair and free discussion on all ques-
tions respecting the disabilities under which they laboured
—as well as for the purpose of identifying themselves with
the great body of the people, and representing their senti-
ments and feelings to the world. They did not claim this
representation as a right, but, by uniting their interests
with those of all the Irish Catholics, by boldly insisting
on the redress of all grievances which affected any class of
society, they attained their object, and it seas only natural
that they should. They, in fact, became the representatives
of the people, and brought about a state of things which
certainly was unconstitutional, and contrary to the estab-
lished law of the land, which allows no representatives of
the people but those lawfully representing them in Parlia-
ment. Were the framers of this Bill to blame for this ?

Were they to be reproached for not adopting a stronger mea-
sure, and infringing on one of the most undoubted rights of the
subject? They were directed to provide some remedy against-
the continuation of the society, but they were not direct-
ed, nor would it have been their duty, to draw up a Bill
which would have put down other associations a-sernbled
for lawful and useful purposes. This measure, which the
Noble Lord has co much arraigned, but which he consi-
dered so necessary for the safety of the country, passed
both Houses of Parliament. The Noble Duke who has

had the honour and pride of now recommending a satis-
fictory settlement of the question will excuse me if I say
that, in his speech the other night, he seemed to labour
under some degree of error respecting the exceptions con-
tained in the Bill. These exceptions included religious
worship, education, manufactures, &c. These, however,
the Noble Duke will permit me to say, were not the causes
which prevented the putting down of the Association.—
Nor was it owing to them that the me•nbers sheltered
themselves from the defects of the law. This arose from a

different cause, and any man who has attended to the
question, who has witnessed the difference of opinion in the
House of Gmunons, and the divided sentiments of the Ca-
binet on this question, lutist be convinced that these excep-
tions alone did not form a pretence for evading the law.—
This measure passed both Houses of Parliament with great
majorities, but it passed, I must be permitted to say, in
the belief that other measures were in contemplation;
and, accordingly, in tha House of Commons, a Bill was
brought in fir the purpose of granting relief to the Ro-
man Catholics—a Bill not, perhaps, exactly the same as
that which is about to be introduced, with such general
satisfaction, but in principle, probably, not very different.
The prospects held out by this new measure were so satis-
factory, that I had no wish to offer any opposition to what
preceded it. Another important change was to have
been produced by that Bill—l mean the disfranchisement
of the forty-shilling freeholders. That measure was op-
posed, as might naturally be expected. It was a measure,
no doubt, most ungracious to Englishmen ; but he sup-
ported it on the understanding, or rather the firm belief
that another measure, so necessary to the peace of Ireland,
as well as the welfare of this country, was to be carried
into effect. That measure, unfortunately, was thrown out
in this House; and, but for the rejection of the Bill for the
relief of the Catholics, I have no hesitation in saying that
the clause for the disfranchisement of the forty-shilling
freeholders would, by this time, have been submitted to
cheerfully by the Irish people. Whether I shall agree to it
now or not I shall not say : but this I declare, that I will
not subscribe to it by itself, if unaccompanied by the other
great and necessary measure, the removal of Catholic dis-
abilities. A glorious and golden opportunity for effecting
this change in the representation of Ireland has been lost—
and, but for the opposition to the Bill of Emancipation,
and the hostility to the measure shown by the Noble Lord,
and those who join with him, we should not have wit-
nessed the scenes of disturbance and violence which have
since occurred. 11Iy observations, however, are chiefly
directed to the Noble Lord who complained that the Law
Officers of the Crown had not done their duty. Did the
duty of suppressing the Association devolve on these indi-
viduals?—(Hear, from Lord Longford.)—The Noble Lord
has always opposed any Bill for the relief of the Catholics.
__("Always," from Lord Longford)—and he has opposed
all concession, till the forty-shilling freeholders rose up
against him. The Noble Lord had prophesied on the oc-
casion, or rather on the prospect of a new election for a
county where he had great influence—l will nut trust to
nay own recollection on this subject, but refer to published
documents for statements which I think any prudent
man would have refrained from making ; the
event exemplifies the truth of my observation.—
The Noble Lord had become prophet, and an-
nounced that those who should start for the county, and
at the same time advocate the question of Emancipation,
would be utterly disappointed. An Hon. Relative of the
Noble Lord, who had often conducted himself with such
credit in the other House, with a degree of feeling and
taste which reflected on him great credit, stood for the
county. It appeared that the relative of the Noble Lord,
trusting to his prophecy, had offered himself for a place
where his Lordship had such influence, and, without at all
taking into account the power and firmness of the forty-
shilling.freeholders, had attempted to carry his election
without regard to their wishes: The candidate was sup-
ported by the Noble Lord—l beg his I ordship's pardon, it
is unconstitutional for a Peer to take any interest, or lend
his support, for the purpose of returning any Member to
the House of Commons ; but, however, the candidate, I
may be allowed to say, was in his interest, and what was
the result? He was repudiated from the hustings by a
vast majority of the people of the county. So much for

identified itself with the people of Ireland ? Was that al
question for the decision of the Attorney- General? Does
the Noble Lord think that the Attorney-General was to
sit down and draw up an indictment against nearly the
whole population of Ireland ?—(1-lear.)—I am confident
that the course pursued was the best, and that the' Noble
Lord is not entitled to c tat blame on me or any Officer of
the Crown for the course pursued. This was the course
which I pursued from 1825 to 1827, when his Majesty •
was graciously pleased to appoint me to the situation which
I now hold, and since that time I have not had any occa-
sion, as an Officer of the Crown, to take any measures to
carry the Act i❑to effect. If the law was ineffectual, the
fault did not lie with those who framed it, nor with those
who, bn public grounds of expediency, did not consider it
their duty to bring the case before a Jury. These were
the grounds on which I acted after the passing of the Bill
of 1825. I considered that the great body of the people
were labouring under common grievances, that they had
identified themselves with the Catholic Association, and

that it was and duty, as Attorney-General, rather to re-
commend the redress of these grievances than to attempt,
at the almost certain risk of defeat, to bring the question to
decision before a Jury. The Noble Lord, who does not
seem satisfied with the honour which he had acquired as a
prophet and a politician, has taken upon him to protest
against the measures of Government, has charged the
Crown Officers with neglect of duty, and blamed them for
not taking effectual measures for putting down the Asso-
ciation—came forward to assist the Government by the
establishment of Brunswick Clubs. God protect the Go-
vernment from such assistance ! The Noble Marquis who
was lately at the head of the Government in Ireland had no
need of assistance—nor was there, during his administra-
tion, any one period when the Lord Lieutenant could
have had the least difficulty in putting down the
Association if he had judged it prudent, or just, or
expedient to do so. The Noble Lord had made allu-
sion, on a former occasion, to breaches of the peace, to
riots and disturb:ince, caused by this Association. Now, I
declare that, with the exception of two instances, there has
not been a threat—much less an attempt—to create dis-
turbance.—(hear, hear.)—One of these instances occurred
during the administration of the Marquis Wellesley, and
the other during that of the N ,ble Marquis who was lately
at the head of the Government in Ireland. Orders were
issued for simultaneous Meetings—Proclamations were
issued by the Lord Lieutenants to prevent such Meetings,
and the result was, that these assemblages of the people
were effectually prevented. But the Noble Lord thinks
that the Government is highly culpable for not putting
down the Association at once, and thereby prevent all risk
of disturbing the public peace. The Association, no doubt,
was dangerous to the Government of the country, and I
am glad that a law has been passed to put it down. I
certainiy had no favour from the Catholic Association.
No man has been more impartially abused than I have

bee❑ repeatedly in that assembly. When it was in its
full vigour I never withheld my expressions of disap-

probation of the violent language resorted to, and now
that it is dissolved 1 feel it my duty to do justice
to it. It was composed of men of high talents and

superior endowments, who, I believe, never bad any wish
to disturb the public peace; lint who, on tile contrary,

. . -
were the chief instruments of preserving tranquillity in
Ireland. The public peace was more likely to be endan-
gered by the course pursued by the Noble Lord and his
adherents, who stepped beyond the law, and, in place of
having- recourse to argument and reason, attempted to
carry their point by uproar and disturbance. The Noble
Loril had said much about the disturbance created by the
Catholic As:oattion, and the violence of the mail Priests;

but let the Noble Lord point out to me a mad Priest in
the Catholic Association, and I will show hint a madder
Parson in the Brunswick Clubs. Let hint point out any
absurd speech from a Priest, or any other member of the
Association, abounding with fustian and nonsense, and I
will show him his fellow is the Brunswick Association.
We have been told that sedition existed in the Catholic As-
sociation—( Yes, from Lord Longford)—but I say there was
more sedition—nay, I may say treason—in the Brunswick
Clubs. Why the Noble Lord should express such indig La-
tion against the Catholic Association, and none against the
other, 1 cannot account for on any other principle than
that of a paralytic affection. His complaints are all on
one side.—(Laughter.)—He comp'ains of the fury and riot
of the Association, but tines riot put one stricture against
the Brunswick Clubs—(hear)—meetings, where mora
violence and uproar, and sedition, have appeared, than in
any other, for a long period. If it had been stated in the
Association, as it has been repeatedly in Brunswick Clubs,
that the King had forfeited his title to the Throne, what
an outcry would have been raised against it by those very
men who were guilty of the expression ; and with what
violence they would have urged the Government punish
such seditious language.—(Hear, hear, hear.) Ido not,
however, blame the Law Officers for not proceeding against
either the one Association or the other to the extent the

law allowed. They have pursued a much wiser course,
and fallen (m a much more effectual plan for settling the
dispute between the conflicting parties. They have adopted'
a measure which, I trust, will render all such laws unne-
cessary, and restore to the country peace and prosperity.
The Noble Lord had said a great deal about the fustian
and nonsense, and sedition, spoken at the Association:
but it is only necessary for him to refer to the speeches
made at certain other meetings ; and, if he judges impar-
tially, lie will admit that the Catholics are not the only
rhodomot,taders and seditionmongers. Ile has also com-
plained of the rent; but is there no rent collected in other
Associations?—(From Lord Longford, " No; a subscrip-
tion.") • I hug the Ncble Lord's pardon for giving it
the name of rent ; but it appears that money is col-
lected, though he says it is not an annual collection
like the rent, but a subscription—a contribution
for peace-making. And is not the rent for the same pur-
pose ? Is it not the contribution to assist the Association
in carrying the crest question, as well as for other chari-
table purposes ? I return the Noble Lord my best thanks
for his strictures, as well as for his active exertions in es-
tablishing Brunswick Clubs. The Brunswick Clubs and
the Association have alike contributed to the adjustment of
the question. The Noble Lord, however, has been as un-
successful in his last political measure, as he was in his
prophecy ; and if Mr. O'Connell claims merit for having
brought the question to a successful issue, the Noble Lord
is entitled to a share of it—(laughter); end there is only
this difference, that Mr. O'Connell has succeeded, and the
Noble Lord has failed. I certainly was a little piqued at
the strictures made by the Noble Lord during my absence.
((Id have therefore th,,tiglit incumbent on me to make these
observations. I may, in conclusi,n, recall to his L rd
ship's recollection, that it is lunch more easy to be an emi-
nent critic than a good performer. One requires much

disastrous, and dangerous to the country, and calculated to
create disaffection and rebellion. He did not think that
sufficiently strong measures had been adopted for putting it
down, nor that the measures adopted had been properly'
carried into execution, and he would persevere in his former
statement; all this was owing to the two last Administra-
tions, one of which the Noble Lord Was a Member of.—
The Noble Lord had alluded to otter topics, into which be
did not think it necessary to foil ,w him. lie bad gone
into the great question, and he had taken advantage of so
doing to cast imputations on hi.n, for having said that lie
was inactive in his official situat;on. The Noble Lord p►ad
offered to him advice, lut h: begged leave to reolind the'
Noble Lord that chari ybe ;ins at home; and us to his
directions how to steer one's way, and such topics, the
Noble Lord might have sp u•ed himself the trouble of givin g
them. He was astonished to hear the Association spoke a
of in the terms which the Noble Lord used—he said that
it met for the purpose of appealing against just gric.-
vances, but he slid not believe that the Association
did confine itself to just grievances. No one had at
right to say that the grievances were just, because
it was the law which made them. The law was

Protestant, and by that law Catholics were extlttdecl.,

The Noble Lord asked whether he (the Earl of Longford)
was a friend to free discussion. He must say that lie 3-7atii
and, perhaps, that the Noble Lord was not in reality

. _
truer friend to it than he was. It was to the use of in-
flammatory topics that he alluded. The Noble Lord had
said the Protestant Associations were as lawless as the Ca-
tholic, but he should recollect that, in J 825, when the Bill
fur the suppression of the Catholic Association passed, the
Brunswick Clubs did exist then, but the Protestants gave
w, v. He was aware that all associations were liable to
error, but be believed the Brunswick was as little to be
charged with errors as any could well be. Their aim sac
to act in favour of, and not against the laws of the country.
(Hear.) He had been accused of prophesying, but other

persons bad indulged in that vein, and their- predictions
had not been fulfilled. In some of their speeches, which
dazzled, at the same time blinded the public eye.—(Here
Lord l'lunket said something across the table which was
not heard, and to which the Noble Lord seemed to assent,
and passed on to another topi,;.) The Noble Lord bad been
pleased ti advert to the conduct of one of his relatives, but
the plain fact was, that his relative, having been returned
by a particular interest in a county, changed his opinion,
and that that interest became unwilling to re-elect him, and
be had the spirit, :is he could not come in on the same in-
terest, not to be chosen by any other.—(Hear.)—That

was the whole case. The Noble Lord was quite wrong to
place Protestant and Catholic Priesthood with equal right,

when the latter had no place in the Constitution. -He
had said thus much in reply to the Noble Lord, though he
felt he was not equal, in two minutes' preparation, to reply
to his speech of ten days' consideration.
The Duke of WELLINGTON was unwilling to take a
part in the discussion, hut he found it necessary, in conse-
quence of a passage in the Noble Lord's speech, to say a
single word fhe Noble and Learned Lord stated that, when
he brought in the Bill, in 1823, for the suppression of the
Association, he had understood it was t o have bee❑ fol-
lowed with one of concession.

Lord PLUNKET—I beg pardon, I did not mean to
s.,y so. What I intended to say was, that. it was lay cx-
pectation.—(Hear.)

The Duke of WELLINGTON.—That exactly
what 1 was gong to say. My Noble and Learncl Friend,
if he will allow me to call him so, could mean nothing
else. My Noble relative, who was at that time at the
head of the Government, mentioned something of the
kind in a paragraph in one of his letters ; but, with refer-
ence to the fact itself, I must distinctly say the Govern-
ment of Ireland did not propose that another measure
should follow that in question. I think it right to say so
much for the Irish Govelmneut of that period; as I am
satisfied, if their word was in any way engaged, they would
have fulfilled it.

Lord PLUNKET again repeated that he meant he
had merely the expectation.
The Bishop of BATH and WELLS presented nine pc-
titions from Somersetshire, against Catholic Emancipation.
Lord PLUNKET presented two petitions from
parishes in Leinster in favour of the same measure.
Adjourned at a Quarter past Seven.