The Sun.
London, England, 1845-05-03 00:00:00

The CHAIRMAN concurred with the suggestion of the Learned
Counsel, but it could only be postponed by the consent of both
parteg,
Mr. BAINES, however, declined to agree to a postponement, and
the traffic evident e was proceeded with.
Mr. S. D. Martin, a land surveyor cf Leeds, had been employed
to value the land of the West riding line, lying between Copley
mills and Leeds, and he estimated it at 49,725/. He had also
valued the land from Low Moor to Dewsbury, and estimated it at
27,000/. In his opinion the line -interfered with no ornamental
grounds or buildings
Captian Lawes, the traffic manager of the Manchester and Leeds
Railway, said the original estimate of that line was 1,300,0001.
The line was sixty miles, but they had abandoned ten miles since
it was first started. The line had actually had expended on it
upwards of 3,000,000/. One of the tunnels alone cost very nearly
gOO,OOO/. Tile Leeds Company was the first that ever tried third-
class carriages and low fares in England, and their example
had since been followed by other companies. During the last year
the number of persons that travelled over the Leeds line, by first-
class carriages, was 94,119 ; the number by second-class was
318,970 ; and the number by third-class was 1,102,281, showing
a relative per centage of six per cent. for first-class, 21 per cent.
for second, and 73 per cent. for the third. Originally, third-class
carriages were made light, and without seats, so as to relieve the
engine as much as possible, but lately the Company had determined
to have seats made to the carriages and closed partitions round
them. The poorer classes mostly availed themselves of the
lhird.class carriages, but they were not confined exclusively
to the poorer classes. He had frequently seen bankers,
magistrates and such persons, who ought to travel by first-class
carriages, going by the third. If the West Riding lines were in
tl.e hands of the Leeds and Manchester Company, they could
work them much cheaper and much more for the
convenience of the public than by an independent
company. An independent company would hardly make
their working expenses, but at all events they would never
be able to pay 2 per cent. on their capital. The Manchester and
Leeds Company ran ten through•trains a day, but if the West

lines fell in'o the hands of an independent company,
they would not be able to run half that number.
. . .

On cross examination, he said tl.ird-class passengers had to
porter themselves. He did not know that their bills stated that a
pig and a third-class passenger tie ere charged the same. He never
recollected having given instructions that the third-class carriages
should be cleaned too often for fear they should become too com-
fortable. All that he knew as to the convenience of these car-
riages was, that 73 per cent. of their passengers went by these
third-class trains.grhird-class trains ran through three times a-day.
Mr. Bright, M.P. for Durham, was well acquainted with the
arrangements upon the Leeds and Manchester line, and, in his
opinion, it had always given great accommodation to the public.
No line in England conveyed so large a number of the working
classes as the Leeds and Manchester; and he was inclined to
think the third-class carriages on the line were as commodious and
comfortable as could possibly be feund on any other line. With
regard to goods, all that he knew was that the Company had a
character for getting busincgs if business were to be had. In
Lancashire rates of carriage had invariably fallen on the introduc.
tion of railways.
On cross-examination he confessed that he had frequently
travelled by the third-class carriages, and found them in no way
objectionable.

Mr. Attam, an accountant at Manchester, had been employed
by the Leeds and West Riding Company to make traffic tables on
the route of their line. The total estimate of traffic he expected
to come on their lines was 88,7801.
On cross-examination he said he calculated the traffic in De-
cember last.

Mr. Houldsworth, the Chairman of the Leeds and Manchester
Railway, said that company was first contemplated in 1831, but it
was not until 1836-7 that the company was sanctioned by an Act of
Parliament. The capital in that Act was stated at 1,301,000/., but
they had to go to Parliament again to get it considerably increased.
One of the tunnels at Todmorden cost about two-thirds more than
the original estimate. The original estimate for tunnelling on the
line was 58,0001., but in the progress of the work it was found
necessary to increase it nearly 60 per cent. The witness, after
detailing the difficulties the Company had to contend with
in constructing their line, went on to state that the line
was opened in 1841, and the line, taking into ac
count all the debits and credits since the commencement
of the Company, had not paid 31. per cent. on the actual
expenditure. Lord Stanley was the Chairman of the Committee
that sat on the line, and that Noble Lord reported
to the House that the estimated traffic in passengers
on the whole line would be 116,000 at 2d. per mile,
and the assumed tonnage was 112,884 tons at an average charge of
Bs. per ton. During the last year the line had carried four times
as many passengers, at an average cost of one penny four-tenths
per mile, being a saving to the public of 60,000/. per annum
on the original estimate. The tonnage had increased in
proportion, and had been carried at one-half the original
estimate, being a saving to the public of from 175,0001. to
200,000/. per annum. They had been actuated by the principles
laid down by the Board of Trade, and their lines were con-
structed not so much with a view to accommodate through
traffic, but with a view of affording railway communica-
tion to im, octant local districts. The traffic of the dis-
trict both of the West Riding and of the Leeds and Manchester
was decidedly of a local, and not a through, character. For in-
stance, on the latter line each passenger averaged only fifteen
miles, but on the London and Birmingham line each passenger
averaged sixty-two miles. The Leeds and Manchester Corn.
pany was the first that had tried the experiment of pay-
ing attention and giving an importance to third.
class passengers. It was the interest of the Leeds
and Manchester Company to have all their engines of one
power, and the same locomotives could be made available without
the least difficulty on the Vest Riding lines. At present they
were 15-inch cylinder engines, but the result of their increasing
the power would depend upon future experience. Mr.
Hawksworth, the engineer, however, strongly recom-
mended them to adopt engines of 18-inch cylinders.
To refute the objection urged against their third-class accommoda-
tion, he could only state that, within the last two years, their first
class traffic had increased six per cent., their second class fifteen
per cent., and their third class 28 per cent. If Parliament
sanctioned ihe West Yorkshire lines, he should consider it an act
of cruelty to the Leeds and Manchester Company, seeing that Parlia-
ment had, years ago, advised them to make their line in acircuitous
route, and they only now sought for rowers to shorten the distance
between Leeds and Manchester, and to accommodate traffic which
they had always looked upon, and which the majority of the in.
habitants in the West Riding admitted strictly belonged to them.
The witness underwent a lengthened cross-examination, but his
evidence remained unshaken. He, however, admitted that their
porters were positively forbidden to attend to third-class passengers.
On reexamination, he said the Leeds and Manchester Company
were 100,0001. in debt, and applying in the present session of Par.
liament for power to get rid of other liabilities.
This closed the case for the promoters of the Leeds and West
Riding Junction line.
LEEDS AND DEWSBURY LINE.

The remaining clauses in this Bill were then agreed to, and the
Committee adjourned.

Group 0.

The Committee met at the usual hour.

It having appeared that two gentlemen, one named Wesley,
being written to to attend before the Committee, and net complying
with the request made to them, the Chairman said he would attend
to the matter at four o'clock.

Mr. Ridgway, one of the landowners in the Pottery districts, who
had been under examination when the Committee adjourned yes-
terday, was recalled this morning and re-examined by Mr. Forsyth.
He stated that he was now an opponent of the proposed line. He was
formerly in (avian* of what was called the Crescent line, that was
to say, a line between Stoke and Crewe upon the one hand, and
Stoke and Stafford on the other. He was now opposed to that
line. He was present at the meeting in October last. There were
a great many influential persons present. Up to the 24th of
January in the present year his opinion in favour of the Crescent
line remained unchanged. He was a Director of the North Staf-
fordshire line. The shares were not allotted yet. He was very
anxious to have a " through-line" through the Potteries, that was a
line from Manchester to London, directly through the Pottery dis-
trict. It was their wish to have a line from Stoke to Crewe.
Reexamined—He was in favour of the best crescent line he
could get. He was inclined to support the Grand Junction in the
line:to Bassford at the meeting of thelBth of October, but he was in
a very small minority. The meeting was decidedly in favour of the
line from Birkenhead to Stailbril. As a Director of the Trent
Valley he had no reason to suppose that they would make a lino
from Stoke to Stafford. The making of that line would, in his
opinion, interfere with the new arrangements entered into with the
Churnct Valley Company and the Trent Valley Company, but the
arrangements were not so far matured as to enable him to speak
with certainty on that point.
Mr. G. Bidder, C.F., was then called and examined by Mr.
MACAULAY—Considering the utility of a line from Stoke to Crewe
as part of a more citended line, he did not think that the line to
Bassford was the best line that might be selected. The witness
proceeded to state the reasons of this opinion, and was going to
give evidence upon the superiority of the projected scheme to the
proposed line now before the Committee, when Mr. Cockburn ob-
jected to his doing so.
The room was cleared, and on the parties being called in,
The CHAIRMAN stated that the Committee were of *pinion that
Mr. Bidder might give his general opinion as to the rival schemes,
but that his engineering evidence should be given for or against
the line before them, and should be confined to that.
Examination continued—Witness was well acquainted with the
country from Stoke to Congleten and from Stoke to Bassford.
With regard to the communication by Bassford to Crewe, the line
which the Grand Junction had chosen was not the best
in his opinion. The line by Harecastle would give a
less summit than the other line. It would not be a more expen-
sive line, and would afford more convenience to the Potteries
district. The line to Bassford would have to go over a hill 100
feet higher than if the line were taken by llarecastle. There
was a descent of 18 feet in the line from Bassford
to Crewe. Theist were seven miles of the line from Stoke to
Bassford, in which the gradient was I in 100. In the other
line there were but 21 miles, in which the gradient was so bad as
1 in 110. It would be more convenient to join the Grand
Junction line et Crewe than at Bassford. If the line were
made to Bassford the branch train would have to leave Stoke
earlier than would be necessary if the line were made
to Crewe direct, in order to get to Crewe before the mail train
from Birmingham. He was sure that no competent engineer
whe was left unfettered would, upon being directed to select the
best line from Crewe to Stoke, select any other route than by
Harecastle.