The Sun.
London, England, 1820-09-19 00:00:00

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41.4 OAI
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TUESDAY, SEPTENIBEtt 19,-18201

PARLIA.MENT,

HOUSE OF COMMONS, SEPT.

This being the day to which the House of
Commons adjourned on the 21st ultimo, the
Speaker entered the House a few minutes before
four o'clock, and a sufficient number of Mem-
bers having assembled, took the Chair imme-
diately after prayers
PROCEEDINGS AGAINST THE QUEEN.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved
that a Committee should be appointed to search
the Journals of the Lords, and to. inquire if any
and what proceedings had taken place on the
13111 of Pains and Penalties brought in to de-
grade her Majesty from the style and title of
Queen of England, and to report thereon to the
House..

The Motion having been read from the Chair,
Mr. Sc rjeant ONsLow did not rise to oppose
_he motion of the Right Hon. Gentleman, but
after the strong expressions which \lie had heard
on the, subject of 'the forms of the proceedings,
and the mode of conducting the inquiry into the
Queen's conduct elsewhere ; feeling, as he did,
for the honour of that House, and wishing the

inquiry to be conducted in the most soleMn man-
ner, he would submit it to those whom it most
nearly concerned, whether it might not be pro-
per to introduce, with the least possible delay, a
Bill to enable the House of Commons to examine

witnesses upon oath. To him it appeared that
such a measure would be expedient. Ile, how-
ever, did not propose to bring in such a Bill him-
self, but he hosed that Ministers would take the
matter into their serious consideration.
. Mr. CREEVEY felt himself called upon to say
a few wqrds, after hearing the observations which
had just fallen from the Hon. and Learned Gen.
tleman. Within a few days a report had been
put in circulation, that it was in contemplation -to
apply to that House to depart in the present case
from its' established custom ; that in, fact an at-

tempt was to be made to prevail upon it to re-
nounce that authority which it possessed now,
and which had always belonged to it ever since
it was a House of Commons—that or examining
witnesses at their bar. He would not consent to
a departure from the established practice. He
did not know whether the suggestion of the lion.
and Learned Gentleman was in any way con-

nected with that which was rumoured to be the
intention of Government.

Mr. Serjeant ONsLow—'

-4‘ Upon my honour

pot."

The SPEAKER called the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman to order..

saw

Mr. CREEVEY proceeded to comment on the 1
course of the proceedings in the case of the
Queen. After the degradation of the other ;
House—after the degradation of his Majesty by
the steps which had 'been taken, if the House
of Commons were to be precluded froin examin-
ing witnesses at their bar according to their an-
cient custom, the sum of degradation would be
complete: This would establish the necessity of
effecting a Parliamentary Reform with a witness.
If after what had already taken place—if after the
evidence given before the other House, as before
'a Court of Justiee--it after that, for the more
speedily getting rid of this measure, they were
not to be allowed to examine witnesses, then he
would say that from that.moment the House of
Commons must become instantaneously, com-
pletely, and irrecoverably an object of contempt
with the people.
Mr.Serjeant ONLOW was sorry that his object
should have been so misunderstood as it had been.
by the. Hon. Gentleman who had first spOken.—
He agreed with that Hon. Member as to the im-
portance of their retaining the right of examining
witnesses at their bar ; and all that he had said
was, that wishing the inquiry to be conducted in'
the most solemn manner, he thought it would be
desirable that a Bill should be passed to enable
the House of Commons "to examine witnesses on
oath. .He denied that in coming to this conclu--
sion he bad been influenced by any communica-
tion with Ministers, or with any person whatever..
His object was simply what he had stated it to
be, and it had no connection with any other
project. •
Mr. BERNALL could notapprove of the sugges-
tion which had been thrown out. He for one must
object to any extension of the jurisdiction of the
House of Commons. He should regret to see the
power of examining on oath given to them on any
occasion, however desirable it might appear ,to he
in some particular cases. Such an inquisitorial
power would, he trusted, never be lodged in any
House of Commons. If the Bill shouldbe sent down
to them from the other House, he hoped they,
would come to a resolution not to receive it, and
this he thought would be much better than pro-
, ceeding by. means of a Bill to invest themselves
with a power which might be used for the most
baneful and tyrannical purposeS, and which was
in direct opposition to the constitution 'of 'that
House.
Mr. llonnotlsE could not refrain from offering

a few remarks on the present occasion on the pro-
ceedinas of the other House. He was reluctant
to put,himself forward, and had looked round in
the hope that some Member of more weight than
himself would take up the subject. He did riot
see why that House should be treated as a mere
appendage to the other House of Parliament, and
continue to meet day after day for no other pur-
pose but to inquire what had been done by the
Lords in a proceeding against which they had de-

cided, iu the first instance, as "-derogatory to the
dignity of the Crown, and injurious to the best
interests.of the country." He knew that the mo-
tion now before the House would be fol !Owed tip by
another for a new adjournment. If that House
were thus to be called upon to adjourn day after
day on account_of the proceedings now going,
forward in the other; he thought the Gentlemen
opposed to MiniYcers might as well resign their
seats at once, and give .up the hopeless stttig-gle
as to go on in this way, inquiring what the
Lords had done, Merely to approve of their pro-
ceedings as correct. For himself he thought,
and was convinced, that far from being correct
and proper, they were of a most pernicious cha-
racter. To him they appeared injurious and un-
just, degrading to the country and to its Sove-
reign. The House of Commons had acted, since
the coMmencement of this inquiry, as if they
no reason to disapprove of any thing that
Lords had done. He knew • that, accord-
ng to the forms of the House, they were not to
ae supposed to know what was passing in the
Lords; that, in fact, they were to pretend to
know nothing of the Inquiry now in progress.—
But, at the last time the House of Commons met,
they were permitted to refer to what had taken
place in the other House, to assist their proceed-
ings in this. He did not know that the House of
Commons owed the House of Lords that sort of

deference which had been paid -to them.—;
He did not know that they owed them such
'marks of` respectful confidence, when the
Members of the Upper House were acting
a part directly against the sense .of the
House of Commons. The Lords were pro-
ceeding with a trial to which the House of Com-
mons had objected ; they were examining the
contents of the Green Bag, which the Commons
had scornfully suffered to -remain unopened on
their table ; and when the Lords thus dissented
from that House, he did not see that they were
entitled to such deference as had been paid to
them. He would say that it was impossible for
the Bill of Pains and Penalties to be prosecuted
in the other House with any thing like fairness
or impartiality. It was not to he expected from
the character of those who composed it. He
did not mean to say that their Lordships were
worse than men in common, but he did not be-
lieve them to be better than common men. He
must therefore calculate on their being influenced
by those motives which weighed with other men,
and when they saw honour on one side of the
question; and neglect on the other, it was to be
presunied*that they would -take that course which
secured their own interests.'
The SPEAKER said, the lion. Member had re.
marked that on a former day a reference had
been made to the proceedings in the house of
Lords.- He would, however, put -it to the
Hon;MeMber whether, if this had been done in
the instance alluded to,- it could now be proper
for him to depart not only from the form, but
from the- spirit of their rules.
Mr. Honnottsc had no wish to take a course
which the Chiaia thOught.disorderly, but he had
conceived it would not be improper to urge the
arguthents he had used to' 'dissuade the House
from searching the Journals.
Mr. CALCRAFT 'said, the Members of the
House of Commons had access to the Journals of
the Lords, and might therefore be allowed to
speak of any thing that had actually happened.
To speak of that which might happen at a future
period was a matter of more delicacy.
Mr. lionnousE did not wish to speak of what
might happen, but merely of what
,had taken
place, 'and he had thought he had the same right
to speak of proceedings in the other- House,
Which was now, called a Court of Justice, as he
had to speak of what passed in any other Court
of Justice. He, however, would abstain from
touching on any topic which the Speaker consi-
dered to be improperly introduced. To him it
appeared that the Heuse ought to oppose the Bill
of Pains and Penalties in limbic. He would oppose
it on the same grounds as formerly.- It is impos.=
sible that the nation—that his Majesty, or that
the Illustrious Personage wbo was the subject of
the Bill, could be .benefited by it, and the whole
of the people were against it. He knew it would
be said, that the present ferment was only on the
surface of the community, and that it was excited
by designing individuals for purposes of their
own. But'if this were to be said on every occa-
sion:like the present, he should like to know
where they were- to stop. -If • the voice of the
people were-not now to be listened to, he wished
to ktioW under what circumstances they were to
be regarded as entitled to attention ? He would
take upon himself to say, that the ferment which
existed did' not rest merely on the surface—it
would' be found much deeper, and it would be
found springing every where from a love of
justice—front a hatred of oppres'Slon, aad from
those honourable feelinzs which had always dis-
-1 tingoish4 the people of" this country, and which
it should he the objectof the Goveroment rather
to cherish than to destroy. lii no instance could
this Bill prove other than injurious. To the
King (if •he might venture to mention his- name)
it would afford no relief. 'What then would. be
the effect of the measure, if Ministers shOuld be
cursed by the accomplishment of their wishes,and
the Bill should pass into a law ? In that case bow
would the parties stand ? The one seoaid he
. proved to-be a strumpet, and the other that which
he would not name. If the present relotion were
carried, if the -Journals of the House were EN' rch-
ed, he wished the-. Right lion. Gentleman to con-
sider what would be the result. Did he think

[PRICE SEVENi3ENC;

thast Ministers, with all their standing akmies,
could ever carry this 8111 into execution ? All the
feelings of th• country were against it, and if
that part of the Bill were given up; which it
should seem was to be abandoned, why was it

necessary to pass it at all ? if it were not intend-
ed to give the King a divorce,. why should they
degrade the Queen ? The Bill, he was of opi-
nion, did not go merely to degrade the Queen, but
it went to degrade the King ; it went to degrade
the Parliament, and -it went to degrade the •.
Country; What had come out in the course of
this inquiry ? Had any thing occtirred to raise the
glory of the Country ? ; nothing of the kind
had transpired ; but on the contrary, great dis- •
grace hadfallen on the nation. Our Ambassa-
dors, Officers, .I.ld Ministers, had been degradtA
Into spies and eMes-droppers and suborners of
perjury, and to finish this disgusting picture, the
House of Lords, the Peers of England, the "
lars of the State," had been ro.uced to searchers
of foul clothes-bags and chamber utensils. Was
this also to be- the office of the Commons ? Were
they tp go through this drudgery, and to pass
through the solemn mockery, sitting there
as representatives of the
.people, of giving

the sanction of that people to a measure
to which they Were unanimously opposed?
lie had beard it said that it was hard for
the Queen that the evidence Should be published,
dud that the proceedings should stop there.
it was very natural for the Learned Coun-
sel for the Queen to say let the evidence go on,
for it was reasonable to conclude that it would

make in her favour. Now enough had -been
done to .spew that the preamble of the Bilk
was' wholly without foundation. Those who
had been appointed to select the evidence had
proved themselves not trus t-w orthyo.nd that which
had been brought forward .was not sitch as ought to
have been laid befme any men possessed of corn-.
mon sense or common honesty: If the Bill should
come down to the llintse of Commons they must
be hedged In as the. other House had. been with
standing armies, and.thtts reduced to the. last dis-
grace of Roman servitude. Instead of Waiting
to be placed in such a situation, it would be much
better to get rid of the subject altogether, by
some such motion as that which had been made
on a late occasion, for an address to the King to
prorogue the Parliament. lie wished to knOw by
whom the expense incurred by these proceedings
was to be paid. 7 Of course it was by the coup-
try. He could not suppose it was to come out of
the pockets of the Gentlemen; opposite. The••
nation then was to pay, and for what? Was it
for any thing redounding to their honour and
glory, or for any thing that they desired ? No,
it was for that whith covered the people of

this country- with shame and disgrace, and Which
they had endeavoured. to oppose in 'every
possible way. Ale should like to know how
much these proceedings cost the country. But
no, they were not to he told this. They were'
to be told what sums were aavanCed to enable

the Queen to prepare.for her defence5 but they
were not to be told what the sums amounted to
that were expended on the other side. The
House of Lords acted a most extraordinary part nn.
this occasion. It was not only Judge and Jury,
but it was also Prosecutor. The Attorney-Ge-
neral, when asked at the bar of the House of-.
Lords for whom- he appeared, .had answered that;
he appeared there in consequence of an •order
fromtheir Lordships. It therefOre shOuld seem
that the House of Lords was the prosectitor in tlli3
case. Before so monstrous a Tribunal it Iva* im-
possible that any justice could be expected or ob-=
tamed.. What then, under all the circumstfraces
of the case, remained for the Muse of Commons
to do, but to endeavour to stop these proceed ihgs ?
They would not be disgraced by doing so. Whe- -
tiler disgrace would fall on those who had ad-.
vised these proceedings
,was another question..
But it would be no disgrace to that house toj.say,
" We are convinced front* all that has passed,
that the opinion we originally formed on- thi3
case, was a just one. WeintVe allowed the -Noble
Lord a fair trial, but he having failed to make
out his case, we decide against proceeding fur-,
then" Such a course might, in his opiciionj be
adopted, with perfect propriety, and he thoUght
there could be no :objection to. an amend•alent
like that formerly moved by a Noble Lbrd, and
he was therefore disposed to move one on the
present occasion. He knew that it was a bitter
draught for those who brought forward measures
"to
be obliged to withdtaw them, but there was
no disgrace in being intimidated from doing wrong,
and in changing bad measures for those tharwere
less objectionable. lie concluded by moving, as
an amendatent.to the motion of the Chancellor of
the Exchequer, " That an humble Address be
:presented to his Majesty, praying him to be
pleased to prorogue that House, and thereby put
an end to the proceedings against her Majesty."
-Mr. BeNNETT seconded the Amendment. •
Sir IL Wit.sOs remarked on the conduct of
Ministers in offering no observations in reply to
the motion. They iu preserved silence ; they
might think it dignified to do so, but he Was of,
'opinion that the country woUld not be satisfied
with such conduct. 'For himself, he would no-:V
declare, that if this/ unfortunate Bill. should be
brought into that House, he ayould oppose it in
every stage. There was nothing that the *it of
m:firCoUld devise—there was-no form or circum-
stance that could-be applied to obstruct the mea-
sure, of which he won:.. not OA. nn'asylf. 111
had attended in the liou,ie of Lords 670 y-day ;
he had seen the witnesses, had heard could
•be said for them, and hal ol*rVtd