The Sun.
London, England, 1845-07-01 00:00:00

to that effect, and if that should be acceded to in this
Bill it should have his most cordial support; and he
j hoped her Majesty's Government would agreeto the
insertion of a clause having such an object in view.
Before he sat down he would only say one word, and
that was this, let the arguments in favour of this
Bill, as well as those against it, stand or fall by their
own merits. But if the real object of the Government
was to improve the condition of the people of Ireland,
by introducing capital into that country, by which to give
employment to the labouring classes, who were the
great majority of the people of that country that were
really in want.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said, before this discussion
should go any further, he thought it right to say a few
words, and then answer the question of the Right Hon.
Gentleman the Member for Dungarvon. He begged to
say he wished to be distinctly understood as declaring
that he never did contemplate this or any other measure
as a panacea for the ills of Ireland.—(Cheers.) Though
he looked upon this measure as one of vast importance
to that country, stint would be far from affording any-
' thing like a means for an improved condition of the
pliyiiienl wants of the labouring classes in that country.
—(Hear, hear.) As to the question of the Right Hon.
Member for Dungarvon, he did think that even in
the Committee it would be well that the House
should adhere to the principle of the Bill ; hut at the
same time he should say that the point now under dia.-
cussion would form an object for an ulterior amendment.
—(Hear, hear.) With respect to what had been said
ab•-mt having a department for the qualifications of chap-
lains, he would say that if the State were to adopt the
domestic form of giving religious instruction, they could
not fail to turn their attention to some of the schemes
they had seen so intimately connected with that system.
And this brought him again to the point in reference to
the appointment of chaplains. The Hon. Member had
said, " Let us know the intentions of the Government
on this point ;" and he (Sir J. Graham) thought the
Hon. Member was right in asking this question. If
those chaplains were to be selected in ob,dience to the
feelings of some persons in this country, he did not
think it would be conducive either to the happiness or
peace of ' the people of Ireland.— (Hear, hear.)
This was his opinion, and this was the opi-
nion he had given expression to when voting
on the Maynooth question on a former occasion,
which, he was sorry to say, was a measure that had run
counter to the opinion of the majority of the people of
this country. Ile was not in Parliament in the year
1825, and, therefore, was not compromised by any vote
come to by the House then ; but, when he was in Parlia-
ment, his vote on this question did not compromise his
opinions. He did state that, personally, he should have
no scruples on religious grounds in supporting such a
grant, and, therefore, it was quite clear that, on reli-
gious grounds, he was not opposed to the appointment of
those chaplains, and certainly was not swayed in his
opinions by any servile adulation to the opinions
of the people of England or of Scotland.—
(Loud cries of "Hear, hear.") But it had been asked,
why not support now those appointments ? His
answer was that such appointments would, in his
opinion, extinguish every hope of establishing a good
understanding in those institutions ; for if religious
instruction be given in those colleges it should be either
a social or a separate system of instruction. If it were
to be a social system, then that should be clone to which
on religious grounds he had an objection, namely, there
should be a sort of distinction of religious opinions
which would tend to introduce a republican system of
religious instruction that would be most objectionable;
therefore, he conceived that the instruction to be given
in the colleges being founded on the plan of that of the
national education would be the best, and religious in-
struction was not included in that system. He did
think it would be of the last importance if the Pro-
testant and Catholic scholars could be instructed in one
in titution, with a view to bring about a softening down
of religious antipathies. But if the principle were ad-
mitted in the south of Ireland of giving religious in-
struction in the colleges, the Roman Catholic students
should have Roman Catholic chaplains, and in common
justice the Protestants students should have the same.
So likewise should the Presbyterians and the Unitarians,
and even the Jews perhaps would require a rabbi and a
synagogue—(Laughter)—and all the other chaplains
would require separate places of worship also. On these
grounds he did think it would be better to avoid any of
the inconveniences which would attend such a state of
things, and which would in his opinion lead to a scene of
chaos worse confounded. He had now stated his ob-
jection to this amendment, and he would conclude by
saying that, if it should be carried, it would be incon-
sistent in principle, fatal in effect, and anything more
injurious than the proposition of the Noble Lord he
could not conceive.

Mr. ROSS regretted being obliged to vote on this oc-
casion in opposition to those with whom he had been in
the habit of concurring ; but he feared the proposition
would be so injurious that he could not concur in it.
Lord CLIVE did not think the amendment of the
Noble Lord the Member for London involved the prin-
ciple of endowing these fabrics. It was merely intended
to provide the buildings and nothing more.
Mr. LEFROY opposed the amendment. He fully
concurred with the lion. and Learned Member for Lis-
keard, in the view he had taken on this subject.
Mr. BELLEW said that if this measure was fairly
understood, he did not think thero would be much op-
position to it.

Mr. ROEBUCK said that one observation of his
Learned Friend the Member for Dungarvoa des rued
more than ordinary notice. It was that Ireland was not
to be governed by the prejudices of the people. In that
opinion he fully concurred, good feeling amongst all
should be preserved. The Honourable Member had
asked, why the principle was not applied to the Englist,
colleges? He answered, because that was not the best sys-
tem of education, which the circumstances of Engle
allowed. Could they teach each separate sect, or could
they endow every denomination which existed in this
country ? Such a system would be impolitic and im-
practicable. As to the proposition of the Noble Lord
(Russell) it struck at the very principle of the Bill ; the
17th clause gave the power to private individuas to
erect halls in the college ; but for what purpose could
chairs of theology be adopted in a college founded for
mixed secular education ? Why should not a geological
hall he established, where the author of "The Vestiges
of Creation" could deliver lectures.—(A. laugh.) The
Government proposition was simply an application to
public utility of private money, but the amendment
wholly contravened it. He gave his vote for the endow-
ment of'Maynooth on very different principles—he gave
it in spite of its religion, not in consequence of it—and
he was in favour of the present measure, because it
acted upon his long-confirmed opinion of the superiority
of independent secular education. The Government, in
bringing it forward, had adopted not an irreligious, but
a wise and a bold course. They had acted in opposition
to the wishes—he must be allowed to say, the unjus-
tifiable prejudices of the country. They had despised
fleeting applause—that applause which might have been
naturally gratifying to them—but under a sense that it
was a duty they owed themseves and their country, they
had chosen a course which not only was creditable, but,
he ventured to predict, would prove beneficial in its
results.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL could not wonder at the support
which the Hon. and Learned Member for Bath (Mr.
Roebuck) gave the clause and the Bill ; he had always
contended for secular education, and as different sects
existed in the country for leaving out religion altogether,
he must say that the Government measure carried
out that principle to its fullest extent, and he was not
surprised to find the Hon. Member delighted with its
provisions.—(Cheers.) But the measure went further,
it went to destroy the endowment of all religion, and
controverted the principle of Government Church Esta-
blishments. Such was the doctrine laid down by the Right
Hon. the Secretary of the Home Department (Sir J.
Graham), a doctrine which the great advocates of the
voluntary principle had ever contended for, but it was
new to him to hear it from the Treasury benches. It
struck at the root of all establishments, and hitherto bad
been disavowed by the Ministers of State.—(Cheers.)
The amendment he had proposed was much more limited
than the Hon. Member for Bath (Mr. Roebuck) had as-
serted, it was rather, as the Noble Member for Shrop-
shire (Lord Clive) had stated, that as the Government
erected halls for the secular education of all, so this
would provide for religious instruction —(Loud
cheers.) That was the mode in which he conceived
it would operate. The Government had stated their
wish to promote the erection of halls, such was the
whole principle of the Bill, and his amendment merely
went to promote religion as well as secular education ; if
such a system was fatal to the measure, if religious in-
struction was considered contradictory of its whole de-
sign, its supporters must of course object to the nomina-
tion of Roman Catholics.—(Cheers.) It had been said,
that if all the amendments taken together should be
passed, the whole complexion of the Bill would be al-
tered. So he thought, but altered for the best.—(Loud
cheers from the Opposition benches.) The Secretary
fie. the Home Department had said that he (Lord John
Russell) was in error in imputing an exclusive spirit to
the constitution of Trinity College, Dublin.—("Hear,
hear," from Sir J. Graham.) He was ready to admit
that as to the permission of Roman Catholics to obtain
an education there he had been misapprehended ; but
from the fellowships Roman Catholics were excluded,
and as to the four medical professors—one for botany,
one for chemistry, and two others for medicine—the
regulation was that they must be Protestants. It was
only a short time sinee he had seen an advertisement in a
Dublin paper, inviting competition for the chair of che-
mistry in the university ; besides other qualifications, it
was there stated that the candidate must be Protestant.
—(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") That he considered
intolerance.—(Loud cheers.) Religious tests ought to
be abolished. If a chemist, remarkable for his talent,
and more especially for his proficiency in chemical re-
search, was to be considered incompetent to instruct
others in science, he did not hesitate to say a bigoted
and persecuted spirit dictated such a course—(Hear,
hear)—and yet it was what those must support who re-
jectedclause upon the grounds of its being a recog-
nitionhis
of religion in the measure. This clause he should
press to a division ; but if unsuccessful, the other, of
which he had given notice, he would withdraw.
Sir R. INGLIS, in explanation, admitted that the
Right Hon. Baronet (Sir R. Peel) was right, and himself
wrong in their interpretation of clause 16.
Mr. 8. CRAWFORD wished to bear testimony to
the truth of the Right Hon. Baronet's statement respects
ing the Belfast Institution. No imputation was ever
made from the religious education of the students being
left in the hands of their parents. lie considered the
measure involved the question of the national system of
education—a system which had worked so successfully,
and therefore opposed any proposition which would
interfi re with its efficient working. He had opposed
his own Church in defending this opinion, and should
resist the Noble Lord's amendment even at the same risk.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the Amendment 42
Against
Majority against the amendment —75
The clause was then. put and agreed to.