The Sun.
London, England, 1842-02-17 00:00:00

Tho '
rec.-

—le price and Is. Bd. in the duty.
wee now before the House proposed to
..ce, iu all circumstances, the inducements to

withhold corn from bond to ls. in duty and ls.
in price. It appeared, however, to him (Mr. Buller)
that the inducements under the proposed scale were, as
nearly as possible, as great as existed under the present
scale, when the price was between 725. and 735.
When the prices had arrived at 725., though the induce-
ment to withhhold was so low, under the scale proposed,
in no instance had any foreign corn been introduced at
that duty, so long as corn continued to rise.
In 1828, in the first week in November, the
duty was 2s. Bd., and the quantity imported that week
was 1,585 quarters. In the following week the quantity
was upwards of 100,000 quarters, and in the next six
weeks, it was as much as 700,000. In the beginning of
March, 1831, the price was 725. 5d., and the duty was
2s. Bd. In the following fortnights, whilst the duty re-
mained at 2s. Bd., the quantity of corn imported
was no more than 1,151 quarters. But in the
following week the duty fell , to Is., and the
quantity of corn imported in that week was no less
than 191,346 quarters.—(Hoar, hear.) In the next
montlkin six weeks the importation was more than one
million.—(Hear.) In 1838, in the first week of Sep-
tember, the price of corn fell from 775. to 745., and the
duty was 2s. Bd., and the quantity of corn introduced was
2,800 quarters. The following week the duty went down to
Is., and there was the large quantity of 1,200,000 quar-
ters imported,—(Sear, hear.) Thus it was evident that
corn was withheld at a duty of 2s. Bd. under the present
scale, as it would be under any other scale at that
duty, which was found to be a sufficient induce-
ment to prevent ,owners from bringing in their corn.
The present proposed scale, therefore, contained pre-
cisely the same inducement to withhold corn, and would
operate in the same way. Notwithstanding the reduc-
tion of duty effected by it, the scale of the Right Hon.
Baronet still left sufficient inducement to keep that
corn, to prevent it from coming to market
while prices weie rising, and as a necessary con-
sequence the effect would be to raise prices
to the highest possible point, and the lowest duty. There
was another point in the scale, and that was the rest, ;
he could not understand why this rest had been intro-
duced at 18s. A duty of 18s. was as effectual a prohf-
bition, as a duty of 20s. or 30s. He had really come to
the conclusion, that the rest was introduced there not
for use, but for ornament; and that the yon. Gentlemen
who had devised the scale, thought it would be more
symmetrical, if it was introduced at the top of the scale,
than at the bottom. If it was the expectation of those
who devised the scale that corn would come
in free at 665., he was perfectly certain that
they would be disappointed in that expectation.
And why would they be disappointed ? Because it still
retained the great vice of every sliding scale, an induce-
ment to withhold corn from market. The rest was placed
too high, becauseit was fixed at a price which was never
attained except in years of deficient home production,

is hen they must necessarily have recourse to a foreign
'uPPI,Y. Whenever the price reached 665., they
would scarcely find an instance in which it failed,
during the ensuing harvest, to reach the maximum
price. Those, therefore, who were in possession
of corn had not only a probability, but an absolute cer-
tainty ofseeing it rise to the highest point of 735.1 t appeared
to him that the:effect of the proposed measure would be
to keep up prices at the highest amount, and he be-
lieved that the rest at 1565. was of no value ; but if these
things were true, he did not see how Hon. Gentlemen
opposite could say that it was an improvement on the
former system. He had looked at it in every view, and
he could not find how it would benefit the consumer. He
could not understand the course pursued by her Majesty's
Ministers upon the subject. Tlicy,were pledged, they said,
to the sliding scale in this country, and yet they
were determined upon introducing a fixed dray into
Canada. But the reasons which should govern them in
the one case were the same as those which should
govern them in the other.— (Hear.) There were
changes of season, and fluctuations of price, in Canada
as well as in England. and there was no reason
why the same system should not be adopted in both
countries. It would appear as if Ministers
_thought it
desirable to try the principle of a fixed duty, and
had selected Canada for the experiment.—( Hear, hear.)
When these deductions are made, they show what
the scheme of the Right Honourable Baro-
net really is ; and he was sure that if the
House calculated the value of the proposed mea-
sure to the consumer, Honourable Members, he (Mr.
Buller) was quite convinced, would agree with him in
thinking that the advantages to the consumer were so
very trivial, that they must be totally lost in their minute-
ness. The Noble Lcrd, the Member for North Lancashire,
had entered into a minute calculation of the price of
sugar last Session, but he (Mr. Buller) would suggest to
the Noble Lord now to calculate the precise difference
to the poor man in the price of a 41b. loaf, if the
proposed scheme of the Right Honourable Baronet was
passed into a law.—(Hear, hear.) That would be a
calculation worthy of the Noble Lord's great talents. The
country was in a state of excitement upon that ques-
tion. Oxfordshire grumbled—Buckinghamshire growled
—and Leicestershire was actually approaching to
rebellion.—(Laughter.) As sure as the germ was
the earnest of th% blossom, as sure as the blossom
was the earnest of the fruit, the embryo of the
present measure would ripen into a fixed duty.
He believed that a fixed duty of 6s. would
eventually be established,—(Hear.) The Right Hon.
Baronet the Member for Dorchester had consulted the
pamphlet of Mr. Hubbard, and that pamphlet had,
strange to say, carried home to his mind a con-
viction of the impossibility of maintaining a fixed
duty. Mr. Hubbard said that the failure of the harvest
in 1816, not on)) in this country, but upon the Conti-
nent, the general scarcity which ensued, and the unusual
precautions by which the continental Governments pro-
vided against that scarcity—these circumstances would
have required the suspension of the fixed duty, had one
been established ; but he asked if a quarter of a cen-
tury had elapsed without a recurrence of Used scarcity,
it would be wise to refuse to legislate urtm an equitable
system because it might possibly not recur. As well
might they abrogate the habeas Corpus Act,
because circumstances might occur which would re-
quire its temporary suspension.—(Hear, hear, hear.)
He trusted he had said quite enough to show he did
not approve of the proposal of the Right Hon. Baronet.
—(Laughter and hear.) But he (Mr. B.) thought
it perfectly practicable to institute a compromise between
the interest of the grower and consumer, but retain-
ing the sliding scale so long as it was necessary
for the protection of the farmer, and abandoning it when,
without injury to them, the consumer would be bene-
fited. He would reserve details for future dessussion,
but would assure the House, that in coming forward, he
had no other motive than the relief of the poor ancl
the service of the country.—(Cheers.)
Sir W. JAMES observed that when the Noble Lord
at the head of the Opposition had denounced the
Right Hon. Baronet's measure as an aggravation
of former evils, the Hon. Gentleman who just spoke
had performed. a sort of scanty justice in calling the
measure a mitigated mischief and a widow's mite.
The speech ,of the Hon. Baronet--(A laugh)—was*
not different from the speeches of other Hon. Gentlemen
on the same side of the House in representing
the distress of the manufacturing districts in
glowing, but, in his opinion, exaggerated terms. The
Hon. Baronet--(A laugh)—(it was here intimated to
the Honourable Baronet that the last speaker, Mr.
Buller, was not a Baronet.) Oh, he begged_
pardon; he thought that the Hon. Gentleman had been
made a Baronet by the late Government.--(Xuch
laughter.) The lion. Gentlemen had talked of Tam-
boll; and the exaggerated statements made by tii,e Noble
Lord, the Secretary of the Colonies, with respect to
it ; but it must be conceded, from, the fertility of
the American States near the 01,lb, w):iich had been
described in such glowing terms by the Noble
Lord the Member for Low_lintli that British farmers
would have but little ehroace of competing with them
if corn was admitiva ht the low duty advocated by
Hon. Gentlemen n't,posite.—(liear, hear.) He con-
ceived thei art
'question to be, whether any protection
should ...9.orded to agriculture, and if so, to what
amount. They had begun at the wrong end. They
were now discussing what protection should be islvest
at
.0 agriculture, and when it was decided
th
that protection would be best afforded by a
sliding scale, the Honourable Member for Wol-
verhalpton would come and ask them to take away all
protection whatever.--(Hear.) The consequeme was,
that confusion was introduced into their (10)4es, and.
two questions mixed together which ought to he
kept distinct.--(Hear, hear, hear.) The error into
which Hon. Gentlemen had fallen seemed to him asrabst
inseparable from the circumstances of the case. That
there should be protection to agriculture he thought the
thinking part of the people of I;ogland, had decided. No
one could have more respect than he had for public opinion,
but the difficulty was to know w hat the public opinion was;
—(Hear, hear.) On the whole (and taking it with all its
faults he loved it still), he did not know how any fairer
representation of public opinion could be taken
than the returns to that House. Ile thought it
might be fairly argued that the sound,
moderate, and
enlightened part of the public opinion was in favour or
protection to agriculture. Upon these grounds lio should
be most willingto leave the question, had not Gentlemen
entered largely into it, who had preceded him. The
Hon. Member for Coventry bad interspersed his speech
with abuse upon the landlords, and the Hon. Member
for Sheffield had talked of their cobweb interests and
their flimsey selfishnessi.—(A laugh.) Protection had been
given to the landed interest for the last .500 years, and that
that had been done with success, he thought was plain
from the statements of Mr. McCulloch himself. The value,
of agricultural produce since 1774 had increased in th'as
country to a greater extent than her whole taxation.
It was impossible to look at the state of the
country, without seeing that there was no Savour
extended to any one class in preference to anotlusr, and
that there was no favoured interest. " Le:nd and
trade," said Mr. Josiah. Childe; a high authority
on such a subject, " Land and trade are twins,
and must ever exist and fall together. Land cannot
flourish but trade will feel it, and trade cannot fall but
land will fall illso." This had been quoted so often, that
it had, become a truism ; but when be perceived that
Hon. Gentlemen on both &des the House, and in each
interest, had, during the course of the present de-
bate attempted to depreciate the importance of
the interests to which they were opposed, lie thought
it was a truism of which many Honourable Members
ought to be reminded.—(Hear, hear.) There was another
rut to which he would allude, that of independence of
;,reign supply. He would not deny that, to a cer-
tain extent, we were dependent upon foreigners
but still he contended that every endeavour should
be made to avoid being dependent upon foreigners
for the staple food of the country.--(Hear.) Agri-
culture had always been considered infinitely prefesaible
to trade or commerce. The Noble Lord had sal that
there was no authority but Malthus, who I,.ad . ad-
vocated an independence of foreign supply. Now, he
(Sir W. James) contended that Adam Smith .was also an
authority in favour of that position. lie
.se.sid that, trade
was, in addition to the danger from tee winds and
the waves, exposed to danger from the folly and in-
justice of absurd Jaws.—(Cheers from the Opposition.)
lie did not think it would be prudent of this country to
give up the idea of being in most years independent
to a certain extent of a foreign sipply. Besides the land
bore exclusive burdens.—("No,' " What?") The laud-
tax, the county-tax, and the bulk of the Poor-rated wero
borne by the land.—(Hear.) If that were not time case
he would be prepared to go to a Committee of Inquiry,
as proposed by the Houourable Member for Sheffield.—
(Hear.) Considering also the various ways in which
protection was afforded to the manufactures, he
thought it was undeniably no more than fair to give
some protection to the agriculturists.(Hear, hear, from
the Ministerial benches. The Hon. Member then read
from the returns a list of the various articles of menu
facture which were protected by a duty, and also or
some articles of agricultural and colonial produce which
were protected by duties.) Now as the Right lion. Barcatets
the First Lord. of the Treasury, had said, if the duty
on corn were entirely abolished, it would be necessary
to alter our fiscal system. If the protection were
taken off corn, it could not be continued linens, cottons, and the like.—(Hear, bear upon
, hear.)
He (Sir W. James) should like to know, if such were
the case, how they could raise the revenue, and
pay the national debt ; he did not believe it
would be possible. James D. Hume had said
that if they repealed the duty on corn, they ought to
repeal it on all others simultaneously.—(Hear, hear.)
He had heard a great deal of talk about
the distress in the country, and the effect
of the Corn-laws on it ;be (Sir W. James) did not
deny that they might have had some effect on the,
distress of the country, but that other concurrent and
concomitant causes had aimuch greater effect. There was
one cause mentioned.by the Right lion. Baronet4whie:u
he believed had a great effect, it was the treaty with
China and America; the over-issue of paper currency.
and the over-trading and speculating which occrored in
1838 were other causes ; and it appeared to.' him (Sir
W. James) that the over-issue of paper moraey and de-
rangement 'of the currency resulted fre,m there not
being a sufficient regulation with regard to country
bankers. The Honourable Gentlemen opposite had
represented this as the landlords' question,ana
not as the question of the farmers and labourers..
That appeared to him (Sir W. James) t
c originateo. from
the fallacy that rent did not enter into the, t
Ricardo,
and
pro-
duction. That had been stated by M'Cullos.vihdelnCti,,card
however, •
a barrister named West ; it was quit
that rent did enter into the cost of production.e ln the
price of every article, there were three shares ;first, the
labourer's share, then the capitalist's share, and the
proprietor 's share. Take cotton for example; there was the
the manufacturers share, and the
labourer's share.
grower's share, and so it might be argued with resteet foroiand.
There was the labourer's share, the,.&re
of the farmer, and also the share of the htndlord, who is;
the proprietor of the raw material. Rent did
therefore.

e. nter just as much into the cost of production as other
article , ; and he could not understand the reasons
-allege 1 by those who argued on the other side.
This measure, he thought, therefore, was calculated to
benefit not so much the landed proprietor as the farmer
and the labourer. Now, with regard to a sliding
scale as compared with a fixed duty, it was im-
possible for any person to look attentively into
the subject,
and not see the great advanee tae
of a slidinee e
scale. Tu a certain extent he ad-
mitted that there might also be advantages in a
fixed duty ; but he could not abandon the
sliding scale. In the first place, when corn was very
lOW, a fixed duty gave no protection to the nirmer ; for
what protection could a fixed duty of 6s. or Bs. be to the
farmer, when the price of corn at Elsinore was 255. or
30s.' In framing a sliding scale, the best
principle up-
peered to be, to make the duty as gradual as possible, and
if there was any rest, to make it as near as possible to the
centre. He had seen a project for a sliding scale, framed
by a gentleman named Thorpe, which retained a fixed duty
between 50s. and 605., and a sliding scale at each end of it.
He thought the idea was not a bad one, as it made the
level as large, and the ascent and descent as
gradual as possible, and would, perhaps, be more
beneficial to the farmer, and still 1110 re to the importer
than the plan of the Right Hon. Baronet ; still he
accepted that plan as a great bout( to the agricultural
interest, and he might state that he had from his eon-
stituents the most satisfactory and ilatteringaccounts of it.
' The lion. Gentleman then read an extract Irma 'a letter
approving particularly of the improved mode of taking
the averages, and proceeded to say, that, under
the present system, it was only the strong men,
the amen of great capital, who made fortunes ; the
small traders, and men of small capital, were frequently
ruined, lie was; unfortunately, aware of many in-
stances .in the town he had the honour to represent
of persons who had declared themselves to have
been: ruined by the operation of the present scale of
•• duties, while others had made large and flourishing for-
. tithes, He. stated facts that must be well known to
eyery.Mentifer of that House who had paid any atten-
tion to the subject ; but as he had said before, he was
. sure that all moderate, and practical, and thinking
... men would consider the measure of the Right-
Hocoureble Baronet -as a great boon.—(Tory cheers.)
The Noble Lord on the opposite side of the House de-
scribed the proposed schethe as a measure which con-
ceded ' without conciliating. Ile (Sir Walter James)
was very glad of that, because it was too much
the fashion for the Conservatives to conciliate without
. ,justice.—("Hear, hear," from the Opposition benches.)
Conservatives conceded sometimes for the sake of con-
ciliation and justice too ; but he was convinced
that the proposed measure had been made not alone
for the love of conciliation, but that it was
made for the benefit of the public, and for
the pure love of justice to all parties. Ile was convinced
it would
.promote the interests of all classes of the
country, and not of any particular class.—(llear.) If'
there was any proof of that wanted, it might be
had by looking at the extreme views taken
up by those who were opposed to the present measure.
There were first the farmers of Boston, who say that the
proposed rate of duty is a great deal too low ;
and on the other hand, there were the gentle-
men of the Anti-Corn-law Conference who think
that it is a great deal too high. Now, if
there was anything in the old maxim that virtue
was a mean between good and evil, he (Sir 'Walter
James) unhesitatingly said that the scheme proposed by
her Majesty's Ministers was the very best that could tie
devised; and as such it should have his most earnest
and hearty support.--(Cheers.)
Mr. BEIINAL rose principally to reply to what
had been advanced the evening before by the Ho-
new-able and Gallant Gentleman the Member for
Westminster (Captain Rous), who stated that a di-
minutien of the price of bread would lower wages ; it
was scarcely necessary to answer such a fallacy.
In no eases whatever were the increase of wages de-
pending upon the decrease of the price of bread.
He (Mr. Bernal) would first call the attention of
the House to the price of provisions. In 1835
bread was only Id. a pound, and there was no fall
in wages. In 1840 bread was double that, and there
was no corresponding increase in wages.—(Hear, hear,
hear.) In 1835 the cost of wheat for the entire
nation was 32,000,000/. ; in 1840 it was 54,000,0001.
which left, 22,000,0001., in the former year, in the pockets
of tins pcoele, and was applied to the purchase of clothes
ctpl other articles of that sort.—(Hear, hear.)
In his opinion too much stress had been laid upon the
analogy betiveen the comforts and habits of living of
the Engli6htnan and the foreigner. From our greater
degree of commerce, and our higher degree of civilization,
we had established a maximum degree of comfort. As
well, then, might the foreign statesman endeavour to
prove that because the fimeigner used wine as his
prevalent beverage, he was happier and better than
the Englishman who drank beer. It was only
within the last eighty years that the lower classes of
. this country had been wheat fed. At the close of the
reign of George the Second, barley-bread, rye, and even
oat-cakes were the staple food of the community. It
- . was through the great improvements which had taken
- place in agriculture that the country became
wheat fed. The Honourable Gentleman had spoken of
I'' ' the unlimited invention of machieery Was he prepared
41'.1,, to eay that the distress which existed was to be attributed
'''' '• •- to the invention ofnachinery?:—(llear, hear.) The
Hon..,.Menaber for Knaresborough, in a rather bombastic
manner, had given a chidlenge the 4enttemen connected
• „With the inatiuft4urnig interest, which he was surprised
had not been accepted on that SO, of the House ; and if the
II on.G elide:nun sucee(dedin establishing that propositii in
he confused that it would greatly influence his opinion.
~..e The Ilan. Gentleman designated the petitions presented
; _against the Corn-laws us forgeries. Now there had
been presentee( 1,033 petitions, signed by 259,939
persons. Was this an accusation that should be
wade against such a body ? Ile also said
• • that the farmers were not eppesed to a modification
of the Corn-laws ; if they were not, why, then, did a
certain Noble Duke leave the Cabinet ? lie (Mr. Bur-
' ri
nal) hoped that sonic Member connected with the
.Noble Duke, would give some explanation on this point. 1
e • . Now the farmers were opposed to any modification,
, • and it was useless to expect anything from them
• -until they had a higher rate of education amongst them.
• • Thu majority of the present House were in fact sent in
' under false pretences to maintain the Corn-laws, and
lay violent hands on the New Poor-law.—(hear hear.)
But he would not dwell farther on this point.
Much had been said about die peculiar burthens upon
land. Until it was shown to him in a proper way what
those peculiar burthene really were, he should suspend
his vote as to the amendment about to be moved. But
he could not think, without such a case being made
nut, that the landed interest was burthened more than
any other ; it was was not, therefore, entitled, in his
opinion, to greater protection. If a case were made out
of the landed interest being more burthened than
any other he would vote fur a greater amount of pro-
tection in order to repay it.
Mr. SCOTT would not trespass on the indulgence of.
the House, if he did not feel that he was the represen-
tative of a constituency of much importance. The Hon.
Gentleman who had just sat down had said that those
who hind been returned as the representatives
/2141 'of an agricultural constituency were sent there
"I''• Merely for the object of maintaining the law in its prie-
'''' tine state. He (Mr. Scott) was sent there as the
~,,, representative not only of an agricultural, but of a ma-
nufacturine constituency, and he would, therefore, sup-
port the interests of both. The county (Roxburgh) which
he represented contained a constituency of both kinds.
. , The Right, lion. Baronet, in introducing his measure,
stated that it wee his wish to fix the price of wheat as
•, . nearly as possible at 565. a quarter. Now he (Mr.
. - Scott) thought that that was a reasonable price,
and he believed it would offer a sufficient ' re-
muneration to the farmer. The great question
at issue was whether we were to be dependent on our-
selves for the subsistence of our increasing- population,
.or whether we were to be dependent upon foreigners,
whether we were to receive our supplies from our own
countrymen and friends, or from ourpresent rivals, and it
might be our future thee. Now, he thought that the ar-
guments used on the other side were far from convincing.
It had been stated as an argument in favour of the plan pro-
, - posed by the Noble Lord, that the importation of corn at pre-
.- •- ~ sent caused the exportation in last year of seven millions of but-
, ire . lion for 2,000,000 quarters of corn. But the Noble Lord himself
A* said that the quantity of corn imported would be doubled if his
:II o Ilan were adopted. Surely, then, if 4,000,000 quarters were
t'" ' imported, fourteen millions of bullion would be exported in
- ,exchange. The derangement of the currency was
. .• easily accounted for by the increased issues, not
.only of the Bank of England, but of the Joint-
. 4. stock • Banks. The currency used by the latter
!e. lid increased in the year 1834 up to 1838 from 1,317,4921.
- ta4,258,190f. When they considered that theme was also a
• displacement of four millions from another cause, surely there
was enough to account for the distress which existed, without
attributing it to the Corn-laws. It would be very pleasant
that they should take more of our goods; it would be very plea-
, . Sant further, to attend to the concerns of the country, and not
~ their own. ,But they were not regulated by any such
principle ;
they- look what they wanted, and all the re-
' 0
-- - turns showed that foreign countries looked for our
~,,;, , gold, and nut for our manufactures.—c
Hear.) The Noble
Viscount, late at the heat! of her . elegy s Government, had
said that they might alter the Corn-laws as they would, but he
believed the foreign Powers would not take one bale more of
~ -the goods of this country ; but a greater authority than the
ten ' -.2.10he Viscount, Mr. Burke, had said that it was not
• aim.. necessity of the seller, but the necessity of
_the-. purchaser that raised the price of the article.
sal Itellaw was, it to be expected, when this country had
-'-''' '4--tlieett .4self in a dependent potation with respect to foreign
-,-• ' ''awgras, that they would deal with this country against their
"a interests') It had been said that embarrassments in trade
bad been occasioned by the Corn-laws, and that, if they were
. , ;altered, it would give greater vent for the goods of this coon-
-rLi.ou There was no evidence of that. It had been argued by
T
a persons that if the Corn-laws were altered, our ex-
ports would be greatly increased. It appeared to him that they
ought tojudge h,
and . . d.d.
of t etuture by time past ; if in taking a 0i,.-
rent series of years nest, when there was a great import of
of foreign lOrti; and, seeondly when there was no importa-
tion ; and if they found that the exports were still going on,
:it must be clear that there was little or no (13nocetion between
the experts and the eff,et of the Corn-laws. If he took from die
soar 1822,
and divided it into periods 'ef four years, he found.
ii•ont the official returns, that, in the first period, the exper:s
amounted to 65,000,tXX4. ; in the year 1832, there were
• 76,0e0,000/. ; and in the one instance they imported les;
corn, and in the other a greater quantity.—( Hear, hear. )
fie,. ) His argument went to show that there was
no connexion whatever between their exports and the importa-
tion of corn. In the year 17 their exports amounted to
- 8,5 000,000 L, and in 1840 to 116,c00,000L,
and
yet, durire,
...! 't A ...be latter . year. they complained of . great distress, while
• ' Z". Ay' errs • was ari abundance during the former year. He did
gricmuilutui9rues,
whandaebtez
'7"--''',"'-100ja•t deny the existence of distress, but it was not attributable
time amount of agri-
J .:..-
acrwilto the CO,vyrniiilarw.EmTerliye, theirv:hluoeproofved
tha.z
iaordreitlttiral produce was two hundred and fifty
.t. `:if manufactures was only one hundred and thirty millions.
~ -.% there was one thing more than another which. he wished to
1---A ~ CCA • ontage it was. active industry, and he thought that the
c
'`f.tl-..-,.',4..,.rnel sure proposed by-the Right Hon. Baronet would be admi.
A;ably calculated for the promotion of native industry. No one
iliouldregret more than he did the distress which existed in
.a‘tt.