The Sun.
London, England, 1845-07-12 00:00:00

Mr. GLADSTONE said that there was a great necessity to
improve the provision for the poor in Scotland. But, unhap-
pily, the question had been mixed up with ecclesiastical and
territorial matters with which they had no natural or necessary
connexion. He thought that farm servants and domestics
should not be assessed to the poor-rates.
Mr. HOPE saidhe had had peculiar opportunities of seeing the
working of this law. In the parishes with which he was con-
nected they bad only been driven to the assessment in conse-
quence of the larger proprietors having refused to contribute
their share of the funds necessary for the support of the poor.
The clause was then agreed to.
On the 36th clause being proposed,
Mr. P. M. STEWART said that he should wish to see
some more practical machinery to carry out the clause.
Mr. HUME said that he should be glad to see any means by
which, in the case of refusal, any proprietor could be com-
pelled to pay his portion. Certainly there was none in the
clause.
Mr. E. ELLICE thought that some better means should be
provided for the certainty of obtaining relief for the pauper.
In the Lowlands the clause might work very well, but in the
parishes in the Highlands there was a great difference. In
three counties there was no possibility of enforcing this relief.
Mr. ESCOTT thought that some better means should be
adopted for enabling the authorities to grant more efficient
relief than that which the clause allowed.
Mr. W. E. GLADSTONE said that much was to be
granted for what had been said on the other sfde of the House ;
but he was quite inclined to agree with what had fallen fron
the Hon. Member for Winchester ( Mr. Escott), and that
greater facility should be given for the obtaining of this relief,
and for increasing the amount of it.
Mr. HAWES said that the Bill was well worthy of consi-
deration, and from the opinion which had been stated by Dr.
Alison and Dr. Chalmers, he was quite ready to believe that
its effect would be to improve the condition of the lower classes
of the people of Scotland, and it was a matter of indifference
as to how the assessment should be enforced.
After a few words from Lord DUNCAN,
The LORD ADVOCATE said that he was not prepared
to say that there were not difficulties in the stay of urging this
assessment, but in those parishes where the system had been
adopted it had worked most satisfactorily. He had received a
great many communications, and he was justified by the tenour
of the whole of them in persevering in promoting the principle
of the Bill and the integrity of this clause. It had been a
matter of peculiar care with him to frame the clause in such a
way that the pr Terry should be assessed in the parish in which
it was situated. He had endeavoured to take the benefit of all
the communications from different parts of Scotland, and they
were very numerous, and to embody them in this Bill.
He had taken care that the assessment should be
made on the actual means of the residents. By
the law as it stood, one half was raised on the
real property, and one half on the other means of the
parties, so that if a man had 5001. a year from real property,
and 5001. a year from other sources, he paid on the 1,0001.
a year ; and the same rule held in all cases, and thus got rid of
this source of complaint. With regard to the mode of levying
the tax, he proposed that one half should be levied off the land-
lord, and one half off the tenant, and he did think that would
be a fair and equitable mode, and to prevent the possibility of
that mode being rendered oppressive, he had placed in the
hands of the Board of Supervision a sufficient remedy, as well
as a proper guard against any one party being assessed in more
than one parish, unless under peculiar circumstances.
Mr. P. SCROPE begged to remind the Lord Advocate of
the fact that while the sale and transfer of property in Scotland
would go on, still the assessment would be the same, and no
power proposed to be given to the Board of Assessmentafforded
a remedy against such a state of things, while, at the same time,
an illimitable power of assessment was proposed to be given to
the Board of Control. He would ask how would that Board of
Assessment deal with a man who might have an income of
1,000/. a year from funded property. These, and several other
matters of an objectionable nature suggested themselves to his
mind by the assessment clauses of the Bill.
Mr. HUME said it appeared to him that the Bill made a
number of alterations which would be found to be very op-
pressive. He would suppose such a case as that of a man re-
ceiving 5,0001. a year from the East Indies, and 5,0001. a year
from the West, and yet residing in Scotland in a part of the
country where he might have a small property in each of three
parishes ; he (Mr. Hume) would wish to know in which of the
three parishes he was to be assessed for this property of his in
India ?

The LORD ADVOCATE said he thought he had already
satisfactorily explained that difficulty.
Mr. HUME did not think it would be fair to assess the
property in India of a gentleman who might have come to a
parish in Scotland merely for a few months' shooting, and
where he might be the only person in the parish who could be
assessed.
_ _

Mr. SMOLLETT said he thought that some distinction
ought to be made in the assessment between those who held
land under different circumstances.
Mr. ESCOTT did not think the mode of assessment at all
an equitable one.
Mr. EIVART conceived it an inconsistent thing that this
Bill should provide that in certain cases the mode of assessment
now existing should continue.
The LORD ADVOCATE said that the Bill provided re-
medies before the Board of Assessment in all cases where any
questions of difficulty of a peculiar nature should arise.
Mr. G. DUNCAN said the Bill provided in certain cases
that where the rate could not be had, the process of distress
against the goods should be had recourse to ; but he would ask
how that remedy could be had recourse to in cases of persons
with three and four thousand a year living actually in hovels,
several of which he was aware of.
Mr. P. SCROPE hoped that a system of assessment would
be adopted that would have stability. The propo-ed mode of
assessment would be a premium to absenteeism, and a penalty
to persons residing on their estates in Scotland.
Sir J. GRAHAM wished that Scotch Alembers should avail
themselves of the experience which the English law at present
afforded, and the fruits would then be an attempt to escape
those evils which were complained of in the present law. The
provision entitled Foulet Scrope's Act was exactly similar to
the mode of rating recommended by Hon. Members opposite ;
that Act was rigid and unbending ; and though its principle
was good, as effecting a uniform system of rating, yet, as it had
proved wholly inoperative, he was loth to adopt the same
unsuccessful experiment in the assessment of any other part of
the kingdom.
Mr. P. SCROPE denied the analogy between the Act he
had introduced into England and that now sought to be applied
to Scotland.
Sir J. GRAHAM explained.
Mr. BAINE said, that as the town of Greenock had been
mentioned in the course of the debate, he wished to take the
opportunity of expressing his entire concurrence in the clause,
and his astonishment at the unmeaning opposition evinced
against it. in this opinion he was backed by strong represen-
tations frsm the inhabitants of Greenock, oho were extremely
anxious that the present mode of rating should not be altered,
and felt considerable alarm at a change so serious being
threatened.
Mr. ESCOTT, after the opinion thus strongly expressed
of the feeling of the people of Greenock, and, he doubted not,
Of the entire population of Scotland, hoped the Right Hon.
Baronet the Secretary for the Home Department would with-
draw the Bill altogether, as its very essence was a change in
the mode of assessing the rates.
Mr. DARBY supported the clause.
Mr. E. ELLICE:, jun., did not think the present law so ob-
jectionable as had been attempted to be proved. If any part
whatever of the Act did operate prejudicially, it was that which
related to means and substance. He wag quite certain that if
the Bill was passed, it would be the occasion of much legis-
lation on the subject of assessment, as it was more inquisitorial
than that of the income tax. He perfectly agreed that the
poor-law in Scotland should be assimilated to the poor-law
in Ireland.
Lord DUNCAN said that it was much more easy to speak
against the measure than to propose a new one. For his own
part, he thought that in lieu of a better system, the one before
the House should be adopted. He trusted, however, that the
intentions would be snbsequently imps used.
Mr. REDINGTON said that the proposition laid down
by the Lord Advocate was, that he was adhering to the law
of Scotland ; but he (Mr. Redingtcar) asked if he was doing
so ? He said no. He contended that the Lord Advocate was
most inconsistent, and did not adhere to his promise. He was
changing the whole system of the law in Scotland, and in a
manner, too, which would be most unacceptable to the Scot-
tish people. The mariner in which the Irish paupers would
be treated in Scotland under the proposed law, would be most
unsatisfactory to the Irish people generally.
Mr. GL ADSTONE said he thought those without domi-
ciles should be provided for, so as there should be no doubt or
uncertainty about their relief. It was only right there should
be a clear understanding oa this subject.
tfhoalito'nvoingperson having less than 40/.
amendment to the clause :
'Ail At Hthe end\l
jE m
of o
in e
a year from means and substance, should be so assessed."
The LORD ADVOCATE said it was very hard to fix a
precise sum, for the expense of living was grea'er 07 less in
line
e 17,th e
different parts of the country. A minimum might be
fixed, it was true ; but that rule would be sometimes the cause
of hardship.
Mr. HUNIE thought it should be left to the discretion of
the board of guardians.
Mr. ELLICE, jun., said the words 4‘ means and substance"
not being defioed, he would vote against the clause.
The House then divided, when their appeared—
For the clause
Against it
Majority in favour of the clause —6o
Clauses 36 and 37 were agreed to.
On clause 3t being proposed,

A
Mr. P. M. S [TW ARI objected. He thought that exces-
sive powers were invested in the hands of the Commissioners.
The clause, after a few words from the LORD ADVO-
CATE, was ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 39 and 40 were passed without opposition.
Mr. P. BORTHWICK proposed that a provision should
be added, that no person not having a provision to the amount
of 40/. should be rated.

Clauses 41, 42, 43, and 44 were then passed without objec
Lion, as was also clause 45.

Clause 46 was then -am7reed tn.
On the reading of the 47th clause,
Mr ELLICE moved an amendment to the effect that the
clergy of the Established Church should not be exempted from
the payment of poor-ra.es.
The LORD ADVOCATE opposed the amendment. He
was willing to make some change in the clause to meet the
wishes of the Hon. Member opposite, if the particular amend-
ment was not pressed.
After a desultory conversation,
Mr. ELLICE withdrew his amendment, and the clause was
agreed to.

Clauses 4S and 49 were also agreed to.
Clauses 50, 51, and 52 were then agreed to
On clause 53 being read,
Lord DUNCAN moved an amendment to the effect that.
inspectors should not be dismi-sed without the authority of
two-thirds of the board.
After a short discussion the Committee divided, when there
appeared--
For the amendment ........................ 11
Against it
Majority against the amendment
The clause was then agreed to, as were also clauses 54 and 55.
The House then resumed, the Cbr.irman reported progress,
and obtained leave to sit again on Monday next.
The Grand Jury Presentments (Dublin) Bill was read a
second time, and ordered to be committed on Tuesday next.
The Borough and Watch Rates Bill went through Com-
mittee.

The Spirits (Ireland) Bill, the Bothwell Prison Bill, and
the Bonded Corn Bill having' respectively been read a second
time, the House went into Committee on the
IRISH JOINT-STOCK CONIPANI"S BILL,
The preamble of which being proved, and the clause agreed
to, the House resumed, and on the motion for the House
going into Committee on the
Cl lAINAL JURISDICTION OF ASSISTANT BAR-

RISTERS (IRELAND) BILL,
Mr. BROTHERTON moved the adjournment of the
House.

Sir T. FREMANTLE, rather than impose such an inm-
venience on the House, would suggest the postponement of the
committal of the Bill till Monday next.
Mr. T. B. C. SMITH, who introduced the measure, having
acceded to this proposal, the report of the Merchant Seaman's
Bill was, after a few words from the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer, Captain Berkeley, Mr. Wawn, Sir C. Napier, and Mr.
Curteis, ordered to be withdrawn, and the measure was thus
virtually postponed till next session.
The Loan Societies Bill was read a brat time.
The Hishwai Rates Pm wept throufh the same star.