The Sun.
London, England, 1845-07-24 00:00:00

THE gtIV, LONDON, THITRSDAy EVENING, JULY 24, 1845.

liberally delivered on his conduct ? He had not had an oppor-
tunity of reply, and yet he did not exhibit any other than a
desire for friendly communication with the chosen deputies
sent to confer with him ; and in order to prevent mistakes that
had occurred before, it was suggested that minutes of the con-
versation should be taken, and that they should be considered a
record of the interview. Now, as respected the general
character of his instructions, he would refer the House to the
dispatches sent to Captain Grey with respect to the New
Zealand Company. In these dispatches he spoke of the policy
of bringing the claims of the New Zealand Company to a fair and
amicable conclusion. What could a Minister say more ?
( Hear, hear.) That Gallant Officer's instructions were similar
to those given in a former instance to Captain Fitzroy—they
bound him to no particular rule, but left him general powers.
His Noble Friend had acted with a desire to avoid all cause of
complaint in selecting Captain Grey. If they had selected
some individuals from that House, it might have been asserted
that they wished to build up family influence, by sending out a
person there, with a handsome salary, who knew nothing of the
country. But that could not be urged against the appoint-
ment of Captain Grey. If they were wrong in this, they at
least acted from a sincere desire to settle the differences in New
Zealand. But how did his Noble Friend conclude his dispatch ?
He said that his general instructions to Captain Grey were—
to remove all obstacles to the prosperity of the colony,
and to bring so some conclusion, if possible, the discontent ex-
isting on the part of the New Zealand Company.
The Hon. Gentleman then proceeded to say that he (Sir R.
Peel), speaking in the House of Commons, and exercising
his influence with the House of Commons, made a declaration
and gave the House an assurance which his Noble Friend the
Secretary for the Colonies afterwards failed substantially
to carry out. The Hon. Gentleman, in fact, had told the
House that he (Sir R. Peel) had said that he thought that
with regard to these distant colonies, the system of representa-
tive Government was the best that could be applied to them,
for securing peace and tranquillity, but that he believed the best
mode to be adopted at present for securing the contentment of
the inhabitants of New Zealand was to establish local Govern-
ments. Now, that was not what he did say, but the particular
declaration that he made was this—He said it was_quite clear,
seeing how the settlers were spread over the northern parts of
the island; that it would be no easy matter to apply the principle
of representative Government according to the rule
adopted in this country, and that he believed the
best plan for them to pursue, was to form
municipal bodies, giving them extensive powers of local taxa-
tion for local purposes; and these municipal bodies might
afterwards form the germ of a future representative govern'.
merit. It was impossible that these local bodies should have
supreme powers, because it would be inconvenient and create
confusion to have one law in existence in one part of the
colony and another in another part. He apprehended that the
constitution of the franchise, as respected these municipal bo-
dies, was exceedingly fair and liberal, for every male above
the age of twenty-one was entitled to a vote for a muni-
cipal representative. That it might hereafter be found
necessary to extend the system of representative Govern-,
ment he was certainly not•prepared to deny, but this he would
say, that the time had not yet arrived for the House to take
that question into its serious consideration. He hoped he had
now given a satisfactory answer with respect to the
declaration which the Honourable Member said he
had made on a former occasion.—( Cries of " Hear, hear.")
With respect to Auckland, he hoped that he bad proved to the
House that he had said nothing which had not been fully borne
out by the instructions of his Noble Friend. With respect to
the treaties, he had said that nothing could be more unjust than
to depart from those treaties. He believed that the whole ques-
tion before the House resolved itself into this—Was the Go-
vernment prepared to take possession of the land, or to secure
to the New Zealand Company the property of the land which
they had purchased? (Much cheering.) He admitted
that the New Zealand Company had a right to be
put in possession of their lands, provided that was
not done to the damage of the rights of the natives.—
(Cheers.) He wished to show the House that it would be un-
just to his Noble Friend the Secretary of the Colonial depart-
ment, if they condemned his policy in a matter which involved
the question, whether the Crown had or had not a title to the
lands upon the right of discovery. When motions adverse to
his Noble Friend were made, he was entitled to ask upon what
grounds they were made? The Right Hon. Gentleman then
read extracts from the reports of the Committees of the House,
respecting the right of the British Crown to the sovereignty of
New Zealand. What construction was to be put upon those
statements? Did they not place the Government of this coun-
try in a position which rendered it necessary to interpose?
They had stipulated on the part of the Crown that, as the price
and condition of their sovereignty, the natives should not be
called upon to relinquish their land,excepting upon fair cession.
His Noble Friend did not contend that there necessarily was,
on the part of the native chiefs and tribes, a claim to all the
waste lands, but his Noble Friend thought, after the engage-
ments which had been made, that the rights of the natives
ought to be ascertained before they determined what lands the
Crown should lay claim to. If the native tribes could establish
any claim, it would he to the interest of the colony that that
claim should be allowed. That was the spirit in
which he had spoken on a former night, and that was the spirit
in which he spoke now—a spirit not in hostility to the New
Zealand Company, but a spirit consistent with a sincere desire
to see that Company restored to prosperity. A pledge had
been given to the natives of New Zealand, and that pledge,
however unwisely given—and he admitted that it had been un-
wisely given—that pledge ought to be maintained. Conside-
rations of policy should induce them to adhere to that pledge.
They might depend upon it that the seeds of future
government in New Zealand would be very imper-
fectly sown if they did not do so. Let them beware of
taking the same course as France had done with respect to
Algiers. Taking all into consideration, he would put it to
the Hon. Gentleman the Member for Liskeard, whether be
would press this question to a second division? He would tell
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman that he Irould not succeed
in establishing a distinction between himself ( Sir R. Peel) and
his Noble Friend. His Noble Friend was desirous of fulfilling
the assurances which he ( Sir R. Peel) had given. He (Sir
R. Peel) would not undertake to supersede, in the discharge of
his proper functions, a Minister who, he believed, discharged
his duties with almost unexampled ability and with a desire
to promote the interests of every colony which had been com-
mitted to his charge.
Mr. ROEBUCK explained that he did not mean anything
offensive to the Secretary for the Colonies in the observations
he bad addressed to the House on Monday evening, nor to the
missionaries, whose cause the Right Hon. Baronet the Mem-
ber for Oxford had espoused.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that before entering on the imme-
diate subject of discussion, he considered it due to make a few
observations respecting the Hon. Gentleman alluded to by the
Learned Member for Bath, the Right Hon. Baronet
opposite, and the lion. Member for Southampton. He
_repeated that he considered it due to bear his testimony to
the efficient and laudable conduct of an officer engaged in the
public service. His (Lord John Russell's) experience only
confirmed the testimony which had hitherto been given of his
powerful talents, long experience in all matters of colonial
government, and unrivalled capabilities for conducting the
business of the office in which he was engaged.—( Hear, hear.)
No one could deny this, but that eminent person did use hls
talents; and his powerful talents, with an undue influence over
certain interests, and was indisputably biass td by the Mis-
sionary Society in this country. He bore willing testi-
mony to the extent of that officer's ability and
integrity, but he must, at the same time, state
that the views and opinions of Mr. Stephens depended ma-
terially on the caprice or dictation of the Secretary of State.
He thought that this debate had been made too much a question
of debate between the Colonial Secretary and the New Zealand
Company. He would take the sense of the House on the Go-
vernment of New Zealand, which, in his opinion, had led to the
late disasters there. He was in hopes that the New Zealand
Company, having been in communication with the Secretary
of State, that the Company might have at length prevailed on
him to take a more just view of the Company. Ile thought
that the present was a question upon which it was now desirable
to have the opinion of M,nisters. He would inquire
what they had done since 1841 to 1845, to promote
the prosperity of New Zealand ? Had that cottony
made the progress which might have been expected ? Had
anything been done in conformity with their resolutions from
1841 to 1845—he believed nothing whatever. It was said they
sent out instructions for that purpose, but lie must say that
those instructions fell lamentably short of what ought to be
done.--( Hear.) His opinion, perhaps, went beyond that of
others as to what ought to be done in the present emer-
gency. He thought that municipal institutions ought to be
generally established, and that the fullest possible system of
representation ought to take place. The council which had
been called had found itself an insufficient representation.
There ought to be some delegations from those municipal
councils, by which greater influence, greater weight, and
greater strength might be secured fur the purpose of taxa-
tion. That was the principle of the British Consti-
tion. Let them not forget that principle, which
had been laid down by a statesman, whose name
must be familiar to readers of British history. A discussion
was related in the appendix to the Life of Mr. Fox, regarding
Representative Government. In 1685, in the latter part of
the reign of Charles II , a period not remarkable for the free
expression of political opinion, Lord Halifax, in discussing
the question as to whether the charter of New England ought
to be renewed, said that it was repugnant to English
habits that a Government, in which- the opinions of the
peop'e were not represented, should impose taxes, and that a
Government had no power to impose a tax on a free people,
which did not arise from representation.—( Hear, hear.) He
said he would not allow any man to take the money out of his
pocket without giving him authority so to do. It was quite
clear that there was a total want of confidence on the part of
the settlers in New Zealand in the present Council
and Government there.—( Hear.) Surely it would not
he said that that had anything to do with the New Zealand
Company. Had not a member of that Company a perfect right
to call the attention of the House of Commons to the state of
affairs there? Was it a matter to which the House ought to
be indifferent, or was his Hon. and Learned Friend (Mr. Bul-
ler) so " deeply responsible" because he ventured to say in the
House of Commons that 12,000 persons had settled
in the colony, and that they should endeavour that
those settlers should participate in the benefits of free
institutions. As regarded municipal institutions, the settlers
in New Zealand were not now, in 1845, so far in advance as
they were in 1841. Lord Stanley said that it was at present
impossible to establish representative Government these. He
said that it was impossible to give them the franchise. Unless
they supposed the annihilation of the natives in a very short time,
this argument against representation would have the same
weight for the next century to come.—( Hear.) Here was a
conclusive reason against municipal institutions. The Govern-
ment was very liberal in commending the principle. Nothing,
they said, could be more desirable than a representative
Government. There was nothing that they would not say
in its favour, but there was nothing they would
do for it. The Right Hon. Baronet would pronounce a
panegyric on it in the most beautiful terms, and with the most
highly finished periods, but declined to act in accordance with
those opinions. With respect to the question of land, the view
taken by him in 1839 was the view taken in 1831 and
1532 by Lord Ripon, his predeceaser .in office, from
which' he could not well dewt. At the former
period New Zealand was Acknowledged as a nation,
and - its` independence was acknowledged by the Crown
of this country. That might have been a wise or a foolish
step, but they could rot, after this, have claimed land by right
'of discovery, and so renounce the act of the Crown:—(Hear,
hear. )' He believed his Noble Friend, who, by the
less of that great man, bears a title which will be
ever memorable in English history—(Loud cheers)-hit
Noble Friend had lately said that he did not approve of this
step. The treaty of Waitangai gave the natives posiession of
the lands, fisheries, and forests, but the construction he had
put upon that treaty was those lands which the natives en-
joyed or occupied.—(Hear, hear.) The Right Honourable
Baronet said, in reference to the interpretation of the treaty,
that it was a plain matter of faith; but the Right
Honourable Baronet, in endeavouring to support his view by a
comparison with the treaty of Utrecht, gave the latter such a
construction as its framers would never acknowledge. The
Right Honourable Baronet, as well as the Noble Lord at the
head of the Colonial Department, said there might be some
waste land to which the natives might not have claim, but
the greater part they owned as much as the High-
landers of Scotland owned the Highlands there. They
must adopt one of two lines of policy. They must
either treat New Zealand as a civilized country, like the
Cape of Good Hope and other colonies, or as an
uncivilised nation. In New Zealand there were vast
tracts of land which belonged to the Crown, and
which were consequently at its disposal. It was true they might
adopt the plan of Sir James Gipps, and say " We may take
these lands which belong to savages, and use them, as we will."

Sir Thomas Wentworth said there was an immense
tract of land, consisting of 100,000 acres, which were pur-
chased at the rate of one-eighth part of a farthing
per acre. Were they then not right in saying that the right
of pre-emption was in the Crown? No settler could obtain
land from the Croon. If a person wished to go from this
country to Auckiand, and sought a grant from the Crown, he
could not obtain it, as he would be told that
it did not belong to the Crown. With respect to
mediation between the savages of New Zealand and this
country with respect to their lands, parties in that case
would no doubt try their fortunes in New Zealand, but then it
came to this, that this arbitration might not be binding,
although the Noble Lord, who was not easy to satisfy, seemed
to think differently—that the land thus disposed of
might be claimed by different tribes. One would come
and receive a certain sum of money, whilst another would
come and say that the other had no right to receive the money ;
that he could murder the father and mother and brother of
the chief who had received it; and that he had a pre-
ferable claim to It, se that those desirous of settling
in the colony would stand but little chance of receiving the
lands under such an award. Persons, instead of saying " They
should like to go out to the colony, and three hundred
more will go out with us—we shall take some capital in the
hope of founding a settlement ;" instead of saying that, they
would go to the Emjgration Commissioners and seek for land in
Sauth Australia, or in any other colony than New Zealand.
Captain Grey might say that now he was Governor,
he would treat the natives with the kindness which
they deserved as British subjects, but at the same time telling
there that he would not be trifled into submission. He might
say this, and condemn the policy of the Secretary of State.
The question then before the House was this—whether
the House wetid act upon its own unbiassed opinion,
reflecting the untiassed opinion of persons out of doors without
reference to party. He feared that New Zealand would be
sacrificed to the Secretary of State, and that party interests
would be consulted.—( Hear, hear.) But New Zealand—in
spite of the taints which had been thrown out against
it, the time would come when the Government would act in a
different way towards New Zealand—when they would be un-
willing to sacrifice the interests of that important colony to
prejudice or obstinacy, and when it would be placed on a simi-
lar footing with their other colonies ; but in the meantime they
ex-posed that colony to the greatest dangers, and if they agreed
that night that nothing else should be done for it, they would
compel 'thoSe who had its interests at heart—would compel
parties, session after session, to take steps to prevent the people
of New Zealand fronz being treated as enemies, instead of
friends. --( Hear; `hear. )
Mr. G. W. 'HOPE rose amidst cries for a division, and was
understood to say that Captain Fitzroy was recalled on account
of his conduct towards the natives.
The House then divided, when there appeared—
For the motion 155
Against it
Majority for going into Committee of Supply—..-66
The House then went into Committee pro forma.
The remaining orders of the day were disposed of, and the
House adjourned at a Quarter past One o'clock.

PARLIAMENTARY BUSINESS.
WEDNESDAY, JULY 23.
The following Bills were read a third time and passed :
London and Croydon Rairvray Enlargement.
Manchester and Leeds Railway (No 2).
West London Railway Bill,—Lords amendments agreed to.

REPORT FROM THE SELECT COMMITTEE
ON THE SOUTH-EASTERN RAILWAY
(BRANCH TO DEAL AND EXTENSION TO
CANTERBURY, RAMSGATE, AND MAR-
G ATE) BILL.
Mr. Lascelles reported from the Select Committee on
Group A of Railways, that in the case of the South-
Eastern Railway (branch to Deal and Extension to Can-
terbury, Ramsgate, and Margate) Bill the Committee
had examined into the several matters required by the
Standing Orders to be inquired into by Committees on
Railway Bills, and had agreed to the following report:—
First. That the capital proposed to be raised under
the powers in the Bill is 187,0001„ to which extent it is
intended 'to increase the capital of the South-Eastern
Railway Company, and the amount of loan which they
are empowered to raise is 62,3001., when one-half of the
capital to be raised by the proposed Bill, and the acts
relating to the South-Eastern Railway, shall have been
paid up.
Second. That the amount of shares subscribed for is
140,2501, and the deposits paid thereon amount to
7,012/. 105.
That the second, third, fourth, fifth, and sixth resolu-
tions did not appear to the Committee to be applicable
to the present case, inasmuch as the work is to be made
by an existing company, and to form part of an existing
undertaking.
Sevent'i. Teat the lines proposed to be made are in-
tended- to complete the communication by railway be-
tween Deal and the South-Eastern (Canterbury, Rams-
gate, and Margate) Railway, and to alter and extend
the last-mentioned railway at the town of Margate, and
so to connect Deal with Ramsgate, Margate, and the
Metropolis,. and all the towns on the line of the South-
Eastern Railway ; and the insufficiency of agricultural,
commercial, and other purposes, of the present means of
conveyance and of communisation between Deal and the
line of the South-Eastern Railway, as well as between
Ramsgate and Margate, and other places lying near or
contiguous to the line of railway, has been satisfactorily
proved. The present amount of traffic by land and water,
with the average charges made for passengers and goods,
and time occupied, appear froth the evidence given before
the Committee to be as stated in Appendices.(4), (B),
(C), (D), (E), (F), and (G). 1;
Eighth. That the number of passengers, and the
weight and description of goods, expected upon the pro-
posed branch railway and extension, are set forth in Ap-
pendix (H).
Ninth. That the amount of income expected from the
conveyance of passengers and goods, and in what pro-
portions, and generally the description of goods from
which the largest revenue is anticipated, are stated in
Appendix (I).
Tenth. That the proposed Branch Railway is a com-
plete and integral line between D. al and the line of the
South- Eastern (Canterbury, Ramsgate, and Margate
Branch) Railway.
Eleventh. That a report from the Board of Trade in
favour of the objects embraced by tha Bill has been re-
ferred by the House to the Committee.
Twelfth. That there is no plane proposed to be worked
by assistant engines, either stationary or locomotive.
Thirteenth. That there are no peculiar engineering
difficulties on either of the proposed lines.
Fourteenth. That there is no tunnel.
Fifteenth. That the gradients and curves are gene-
rally favourable ; the-steepest gradient being 1 in
264, and the smallest radius of a curve being 20 chains.
Sixteenth. That the length of the branch line to Deal
is 8 miles 7i furlongs, and of the Extension to Margate
3 furlongs.
Seventeenth. Tbat itis intended that;the said altered and
extended line of railway should cross on a level one public
road, and that the Branch Railway to Deal should cross
eight public roads ; but the evidence adduced before the
Committee established to the satisfaction of the Commit-
tee that, owing to the peculiar character of the country
traversed, the crossing of such highways on the level was
under all circumstances the most eligible mode that
could be adopted, and that under proper regulations
(which are enforced by clauses in the Railway Clauses
Consolidation Act, the powers of which are extended to
this Bill) no danger could reasonably be anticipated from
that circumstance.
Eighteenth. That the amount of the estimates of the
cost or other expenses to be incurred up to the time of
the completion of the railways is 178,0001., which appears
to be supported by evidence,and to be fully adequate for
the purpose.
Nineteenth. That the estimated charge of the annual
expenses of the railways when completed is 40 per cent.
of the gross receipts, the adequacy of which was satis-
factorily
.proved to the Committee.
Twentieth. That the calculations proved in evidence
have satisfactorily established that the revenue is likely
to be sufficient to support the annual charges of the main-
tenance of the railway, and still allow a profit to the pro-
jectors.
That the Committee are satisfied of the fitness in an
engineering point of view of the proposed line of railway,
and there are no other special circumstances of which, in
the opinion of the Committee, it is desirable the House
should be informed.
Mr. Lascelles further reported from the Committee,
that they had examined the allegations of the Bill, and
found the same to be true, and had gone through the Bill,
and made several amendments thereunto.

THE SLAVE TRADE.
PAPERS RELATING TO THE CONVENTION BE-
TWEEN GREAT BRITAIN AND BRAZIL ON THE
SLAVE TRADE.

No. 1.

H. C. J. Hamilton, Esq., to the Earl of Aberdeen. (Two
Inclosnres.)
British Legation, Rio de Janeiro,
March 22, 1845.
My Lord,—On the 12th instant, a notification was addressed
;time by the Minister for Foreign Affairs, that under the stipu-
lations for the slave trade conventions between Great Britain
and Brazil, the convention of 28th July, 1817, would cease to
have force and effect from the day following, and that conse-
quently from that date, namely the 13th of the month, would
cease and determine the right of visit and search provided for
by the said convention of 28th July, 1817, as well as all other
provisions comprehended therein ; or in the additional articles,
the instructions, &c., &c., annexed thereto; and the notifica-
tion also explained, that the Brazilian Government had agreed
that the British and Brazilian Courts of Mixed Commission,
established in this capital and at Sierra Leone, should continue
in the exercise of their authority for six months longer, that is,
until the 13th of September next, in order to a final arrange-
ment of all cases and questions yet undetermined, and of any
others to be brought into court, that might have occurred pre-
viously to the said 13th of March.
On the 15th instant, also, a notification of the cessation of
the right of visit and search was made by the Minister of Justice
to the supreme legal tribunals of the capital, and to the pre-
sidents of maritime provinces; but accompanied by an injunc-
tion, that until some specific regulation should be organised for
th• adjudication of vessels captured on account of illicit trade
in slaves, the ordinary courts of law of the empire should be
competent to take cognizance of such acts.
We have yet to see how far these new measures contemplated
by the Brazilian Government for putting down the contraband
may be successful. But thus far it cannot be denied, that al-
though they have been pledged by treaty to abolish it within a
stated period of time, that abolition has not been accomplished ;
that on the contrary, it has flourished, and continues to flourish,
under the connivance of the authorities, on the face of all en-
gagements however solemn ; and it seems an admissible ques-
tion, whether, looking to this abandonment of their engage-
ments, the conventions on slave trade between the British and
Brazilian Crowns ought not to be considered as remaining in
full vigour.
Of the two documents mentioned above, I have the honour
to inclose copies. My answer to the first contained simply an
acknowledgment of receipt, and an assurance that it should be
laid before her Majesty's Government without delay.—l
have, &c.,

Extract. )

(Signed)

HAMILTON HAMILTON.

TRANSLATION.

As from to-morrow, the 13th of the current month of March,
1845, the fifteen years will be completed, during which, ac-
cording to the conventions between Brazil and Great Britain
in regard to the abolition of the traffic in slaves, the convention
of the 28th of July, 1817, still continued in force, and as from
that day the right of visit and search consequently ceases, as
well as all the other stipulations contained in the above-men-
tioned convention of the 213th of July, 1817, the additional
articles, instructions, and regulations annexed thereto, the
undersigned councillor of his Majesty the Emperor, &c., has
received an order from his august Majesty to communicate to
Mr. Hamilton Hamilton, &c., that, attending to the fact, that
by an understanding between the two high contracting parties,
it was agreed to allow the period of six months for Brazilian
vessels employed in the traffic to return unmolested to the ports
of the empire, provided they had left the coast of Africa before
the 13th of March, 1830, on which day, according to the
convention of the 23d November, 1826, this traffic was to cease
entirely; the Imperial Government will not hesitate to agree
that the Brazilian and English mixed commissions, established
in this capital and in Sierra Leone, continue for six months
longer, which period will expire on the 13th of September of
this year, for the sole purpose of concluding the adjudication of
the cases pending, and of those which may, perchance, have
occurred before the 13th day of March of the current year.
The undersigned avails himself, &c.,
(Signed) ERNESTO FERREIRA FRANCA.
Palace of Rio de Janeiro, March 12, 1845.
Hamilton Hamilton, Esq., &c.