The Sun.
London, England, 1845-06-04 00:00:00

GROUP SS.

The Select Committee on this group re-assembled at the usual
hour this morning, and proceeded with the engineering evidence
in the case for the promoters of the

COVENTRY,I3EDVVORTN, AND NUNZATON

RAILWAY.

The examination of Mr. Addison, the engineer to the Company,
was resumed by Mr. MAKAULUY. The principal details of his
evidence were given yesterday. His testimony this morning was
of a general nr ture, and only went to show the proposed line was
the best that could possibly be marked out.
The witness was cross-examined at some length by Mr. DANIEL,
with a view of showing that the progress of the line would inter-
fere with a place ca:led Gosford-green, where the poorer
inhabitants of Coventry resort for exercise and recrea-
tion. The witness admitted that the line would pass
through the green on an embankment of from 9 to 10 feet in
height, but there was a more important resort of the poor of
Coventry, called Friar's.green, which would not be interfered with,
although it was near to the station of the proposed railway.
The witness admitted that there was a succession of three curves
on the line within a mile and a half of the station, but as they were
on a branch, and not a main line, they were in no wise objection.
able. The line passed near to but not through, a place called
Stoak-green and Stoak-heath. He was not aware whether
the inhabitants of Coventry had a right of common on these
places, nor was he aware that cattle strayed uninterruptedly from
the Heath to the Green. The line would certainly pass through
Barrow's-green but the deviation line would not in the least
affect Stoak-green. He had heard, but was not aware of
his own knowledge, that there was a right of pasturage
on these greens, but in whom the right was vested he did not
know. He proposed to protect Barrow's-green by a gate and a
man, and there would, consequently, be no obstruction to the pro-
gress of the cattle from the Green to the Heath. The deviation
line commenced at the junction on the Birmingham line, and ex-
tended to a place called Stoak, a distance of about a mile and a
quarter. This deviation had been marked out to meet the views
of the Corporation of Coventry, who objected to the original line.
On one part of the line in the eighbourhood the land had sunk
14 feet, but he was not aware that it was still sinking. Every
precaution, however, would be taken against contingencies of this
nature.

The witness was cross-examined by sir. SPARKESON, on behalf
of the London and Birmingham Company, with a view of showing
that the line originated with himself, and not with any persons re-
sident in the district through which the line will pass. He said
he had never constructed a railway under his own sole and imme-
diate superintendence, but had frequently and repeatedly acted as
a sub.engineer. He admitted being the engineer to three new
schemes coming before Parliament next session.
The cross-examination had not terminated when the Committee
adjourned.

GROUP W.
BRAYTON AND GOOLE RAILWAY.

The Committee on this line reassembled to-day at twelve o'clock
Present—Mr. Pakington (in the chair), Lord Seymour, Mr. Max-
well, Mr. Bouverie, and Mr. Whitmore.
The examination of Mr. Arthur Maude was then resumed—
Knew most of the persons at Goole who signed a petition in favour
of the proposed line. They were all respectable persons. Many
of them signed the petition after they knew that Mr. Hudson had
leased the Hull and Selby line.
The CLUIVAN tald that he would like to ascertain, previous to

the erass-.examination of this witness, what course the promoters
of the line intended to adopt with regard to the additional evidence
they would bring forward. He did not wish to be understood as
prescribing or dictating to the Di>arned Counsel the course proper
for them to adopt, but if he might be permitted to say so at
this stage of the proceedings, he considered that the direct
examination of the last witness served the competing line (the Pon-
tefract and Goole line) as much as the proposed one (the Brayton
and Goole).
Mr. PICKEI,ANG begged to know why the Chairman entertained
that opinion ?
The CHAIRMAN said, that from the evidence given yesterday by
the witness, it appeared that the principal traffic he referred to
was sugar—that he sent annually 1,900 tons to Yorkshire, Leeds
and Bradford. Of that quantity he stated that only 100 tons went
to Leeds, and 150 tons to Bradford—the rest went to Halifax and
Huddersfield. Now the Pontefract and Goole line was, in his opi.
nion, as much served as the proposed line, for the difference be-
tween the two as to gradients and distance, according to the evi.
dence they had yet heard, was, in all these points, as favour.
able a line for the conveyance of the traffic referred to.
Mr. KNowLes said that he was prepared to prove that the
Brayton and Goole line was In every respect superior, more
convenient, and would afford greater accommodation to the in-.
habitants of Goole. It would also open up the large collieries, & c
Mr. George Hammond, a flax-spinner, at Leeds, was then ex.
amincd. He imported flax largely from the ports of the Baltic,
Belgium, and France. All his flax came to Hull. The cost
from Hul, to Leeds was 6s. Bd. per ton. If the proposed line were
laid down, and the same rates charged for the conveyance of flex as
on other hnes, the saving in carriage would be 2s. 6d. per ton
from Goole.
By Mr. Witaiins— Was a shareholder in the Midland ounties.
Mr. Rand was a worsted spinner end manufacturer at Bradford.
Employed 1,600 banes in his business. Imported 4,000 bales of
wool from Germany and other places. The cost of the carriage of
the colonial wool bought in the London market, by canal to Leeds,was
Is. 6d. per cwt., or sOs. a ton. This witness went on to say how much
_ _

more convenient it would be for him, as well as cheaper, if the
proposed line ware laid down, by enabling him to bring his colonial
wool to Goole instead of Hull.

Mr. Picliar, exporter of yarns—Lived at Bradford. Exported
800 tons annually at Hull. He gave similar evidence as the last
witness with respect to the port of Goole.

Cross-examined by Mr. WILKINS— The reason why he thought
the Brayton and Goole line was preferable to the Wakefield and
Goole line, was the better gradients which it afforded. Knew that
by the sections. The sections he saw were Mr. Birkenshaw's.
Mr. Holt, examined by Mr. KNowt.Es— Was a wool merchant
at Leeds for twenty-five years. Purchased large quantities of wool
yearly from Germany. Imported 3,000 to 4,000 bags. It was
brought partly by water, partly by rail, but latterly he had had it all
brought by the rail. There was a large traffic to Leeds from Goole.
His wool came to him by Hull He confirmed the evidence of the
two last witnesses with regard to the superiority of the port of
Goole to that of Hull in respect to the accommodation it would
afford. Thought the proposed line would be a much better line
than the Wakefield and Goole line.

Mr. Passevant was a manager of a house at Leeds, largely en-
gaged in the exportation of linen and worsted yarn, which was
all shipped at Hull. The evidence of this witness was nearly a
repetition of what had been already deposed to in reference to the
superiority of the port of Goo:E. to Hull, and to the advantages
which the proposed line would confer in cheapness and accommo..
dation, &c.

Mr. John Strickland, corn.factor near Snaith, had bought corn
and sold it at Leeds in preference to Wakefield. The facility of
going to Wakefield was as great as to Leeds. The reason he pre-
ferred Leeds was that he got cash in Leeds, and was obliged, if he
sold his corn at Wakefield, to take a three.months' bill.
Cross-examined by Mr. WILKINS—Had signed a petition in
favour of the Wakefield and Goole line, but did so under the im.
pression that the Brayton and Goole line was thrown out by the
Committee on Standing Orders.

By Mr. Buss—The average quantity of corn which he pur-
chased weekly was 100 quarters. (A petition was here handed to
witness against the proposed line.) The people whose signatures
were attached to that petition were respectable, but he should like
to know whether those who signed it knew what it was they were
signing? In his part of the country they never read any petition
they signed. He never in his life read any Parliamentary petition
he signed.— (A laugh.)

Mr. Douglas, lived at Draa. Was a cattle and hay dealer, and
butcher; occasionally took his cattle to Leeds and Wakefield.
Sent a proportion of ten to one of them to Leeds.

The CHAIRMAN thought it unnecssary to pursue the line of exa-
mination with regard to the advantages which the proposed line
would confer en those who lived in the immediate neighbourhood
~f the &strict though which it passed. He thought that was self.
evident, and that it might be almost assumed, except, of course, dis-
sentient landowners.

Mr. KNOWLES then said he would ask the witness no further
questions.

Mr. Douglas, cross.examined by Mr. Buss—Sent 500 beasts
yearly to Leeds, and the produce of two acres of potatoes.
Mr. Samuel Wiikinscn lived at Harrogate, and had also lived at
Knaresborough. There were a great many flax mills in that neigh-
bourhood. If the proposed line were made it would confer immense
advantages on the valley of the Nidd. The Wakefield and Gocle
line would be of no use to them—it went in another direction.
Knew the town of Wetherby, and all the country in that neigh.
bourhood. This line would benefit all that district.
By the CHAIRMAN—The quantity of flax imported into the dis.
trict was from 3,000 to 4,000 tons annually.

Cross-examined by Mr. WILKINS—AII the flax did not come by
Hull ; some came by Stockport and Liverpool.
Mr. Joseph Jackson, omnibus driver from G oele to the Howden
station, was five times to and fro every day between those places;
another omnibus went four times. Upon an averaze lie carried
240 passengers a week to and fro for the last twelve months. The
principal part of the passengers he took to the Howden station went
to the west trains.

Thomas Dunhill wasa coachman and coach proprietor at Wake-
field. Knew the traffic between Wakefield and Goole and Wakefield
and Hull cp to 1838. His coach did not pay. There was not
traffic sufficient to support a conveyance unless the individual who
was proprietor of it also acted as coachman. There was only
one conveyance at present on the market day, which went to
Pontefract.

Cross-examined by Mr. WlLLiNs—There was no coach between
Leeds and Goole at the time he referred to.
Mr. Joseph Bottomley, lived near Pontefract, and was a
lime burner, coal carrier, and farmer. Burnt his lime at Hudders-
field. He did not consider that the statement made by the witnesses
who had deposed to benefits which the competing Wakefield and
Goole line would confer on the lime trade of Knottingley and
neighbourhood were correct. So far as he was concerned he
would nut use it, nor did he consider it would be generally ad-
vantageous to the interests of the community of that district. He
thought the Wakefield and Goole line was a preposterous one.
Cross-examined by Mr. Wimilers—Charged from I4s to 16s. per
ton at Huddersfield for his lime. It was sold at Knottingley at
the pit at 6s. to 7s. per ton. Did not know the Manchester and
Leeds line delivered this lime at Brigghouse (via Huddersfield) for
6s. 6d. per ton,

Mr. Sherriff was called to prove that the rates charged on:the
Hull and Selby line were less than those charged by the Manchester
and Leeds line.

Cross-examined by Mr. WILKINS—The Leeds and Selby and
Hull and Selby carried at these reduced rates, notwithstanding the
badness of the gradients on those lines.

The cross-examination of this witness was interrupted by the
announcement of the Speaker being at prayers.

The Committee then adjourned till twelve o'clock to.morrow.

GROUP V.

TIM DIA.NCHESTER., SHErPIELD, AND

CHESTER.FORD RAILWAY.

The Committee, consisting of the O'Conor Don, chairman, Sir
John Rae Reid, Sir D. Norreys, Mr. Hope Johnstone, and Mr.
Davies, met to-day at half-past eleven, when
Mr. Hawkshaw, C.E., was re-called and examined with re-
gard to the proposed line. He corroborated the evidence of Mr.
Vignolles and of Mr. Gibbs, given on a previous day,
with respect to the advantages of the line, and the few engineering
difficulties to be met with. He was in the habit of working much
more severe gradients than those on this line.

James 'Choim,ol.—Was au assistant in Sir John M`Neill's °thee,
and was well acquainted with the working of the mineral lines in
the neighbourhood of t3lasgow. There wire many heavier
lire than on this lie might iuslance one, the
Ballochney line, where heavy coal.trains were worked on an incline
of 1 in 70. He saw not the least difficulty in working this line.
Mr. Rastrick, civil engineer, gave exactly similar evidence.
Wiliam Fairbank—Had had considerable experience in the
making of estimates on railway lines, and he had done so in this case.
He had assisted Mr. Vignolles, and returned the whole expense of
the line at 400,0001.

Mr. J. Nowell had been a contracter for many years in works
of this nature, and had, therefore, great experience in those mat-
ters. He had carefully examined the estimates furnished in this
case, and was convinced that they wet e exceedingly correct. He
should be very happy to contract for the tunnel at 42/ 10s.
per yard, as he was convinced that the stratum
through which it passed was most favourable for en-
gineering purposes. He should be equally ready to under-
take any of the other works at the estimates for which they were
taken. He spoke from experience acquired in such extensive
works as the Bristol and Gloucester, and other great lines.
The witness was under examination when the Speaker was
announced at prayers, and the Committee adjourned.

GROUP X.
LONDON AND TORN MINE.

The Committee havingassembled in the Committee room, Ne. 8.
at the usual hour,

Mr. Hawkshaw, engineer, was called and exarni,ied—ls the engi
neer of the Manchester and Leeds, and several other lines. That
part of the London and York line between Bawtry and Wakefield
and Bawtry and York was laid out under his superintendence.
Considers the prices for the work •ery high, and higher than any
he has heard this session. The line presented no
peculiar difficulty. Did not think it possible that the
iron for the London and York line could cost the price put
down for it, namely, 12/. I Os. Has bought iron himself recently at
WI. and 101. per ton, delivered. Iron was an article that fluctuated
very much in price ; but the present rate was as high as he had
known it for many years. This witness underwent a long exa.
mination upon the abstract principle, as to the amount of extra
power required by trains ascending inclines of various gradients,
from 1 in '2OO i‘pwards; he also deposed that the station proposed
to be made at York was to cross the York and North Midland
station at a level, and it was the only eligible mode that could be
adopted, taking all circumstances into consideration. He was
cross-examined by the counsel for the different competing lines
for the purpose of ascertaining the mode by which passengers were
to be accommodated with conveyances along the different
branches from the main line, assuming that a certain number only
of trains started from London—in answer to which, the witness
proposed to avoid the difficulty by increasing the number of trains.
He was next asked in reference to the carriage of heavy goods ;
assuming that the carriage of goods conveyances by the London and
Birmingham line cost 3,4001. per mile, and did not carry coals, the
Counsel wished to know from the witness whether his opinion
was that 3,000/. per mile on the London and York line would
be sufficient to cover the expense of carriage conveyance, taking
into account that 500,000 tons of coals per annum were to be
conveyed by this line, as well as a vast quantity of
manure, stone, lime, &c., and the Company finding
their own carriages. The witness said at first he thought 3,000/. a
mile a fair sure; but he subsequently saiu he could not tell without
going into a lung calculation, and the Counsel did not press the
question.

Mr. J. K. Brunel, engineer—Had examined the estimates for all
the works on the London and York line, and considered all the
prices very liberal. Knew of no difficulty or danger in crossing
the York and North Midland station at York.
To Mr. TALBOT—Has found London clay very troublesome.
.-"After a few unimportant questions from the other counsel,
The Committee adjourned at halfpast four.

STANDING DRIERS COMMITTEE.
This Committee assembled to-day shortly after two o'clock.
The decisions were all respecting amendments to Bills, conse-
quently the fate of no Bill was involved.

LONDON AND BRIGHTON RAILWAY.—It is with
regret we learn that Mr. Mackenzie, the Secretary of this
line, is about to retire from the post in which we are sure
that he must have commanded the respect of all who
had occasion to communicate with him. Mr. Mackenzie
quits his post with the warmest wishes of the Directors fur
his success in the profession which he has in view.
ROYAL SAPPERS AND MlNERS.—Captain Haworth,
Royal Engineers, and the 9th company of Royal Sappers and Miners,
recently stationed at Woolwich, embarked on Monday at the Royal
Arsenal, Woolwich, in the Gilbert Anderson hired barque, for a pas-
sage to the Cape of Good Hope. The company is not sent out for the
purpose of relieving another company, but to he stationed at Port
Natal, several hundred miles from the Cape, for the purpose of con-
structing fortifications and strengthening that port. The men who
embarked yesterday appeared in excellent order, and marched to the
Royal Arsenal, headed by their braes band, playing the air, "The
girl I left beltad. me."

IMPERIAL PAtiLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF L 01? DS, June 3.
The LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat on the Woolsack at
the usual hour.

iIIAYNOOTEL

Petitions were presented against the Maynooth grant by
the Bishop of Llandaff, from places in Llandaff; the Bishop
of Cashel, from Armatri. zr.nd Kildare ; Lord Clanclarty from
Cork, Kilmore, and Drop, '1,1; Lord Kenyon ; Lord Campbell,
from congregations of the Fr ee Church ; Lord Fitchardinge,
from ',3loucester and Heretordshire ; Earl of Yarborough ; and
the Earl of Roden, from different places in England.
INDEMNITY BILL.

On the motion of the Duke of BUCCLEUCH, the In-
demnity Bill was read a third time and passed.
Earl FORTESCUE presented petitions for and against the
grant to Maynooth.
The Bishop of WINCHESTER presented sixty-nine peti-
tions against the grant.
The Marquis of BREADALBANE presented 113 petitions
against the grant to Maynooth in particular, and several against
all State endowments of a religious character, comprising
more than 10,000 signatures.
Lord BROUGHAM presented numerous petitions against
the grant to Maynooth.
SMALL DEBTS BILL.
The Nor.LE and LEARNED Lour) then moved that the
Small Debts Bill be re-committed. The Bill was satisfactory
to every one who had petitioned except to one person.
The Bill was re-committed accordingly.
111 A YNOOTH GRANT.—ADJOURNED DEBATE.
On the motion for the order of the day being read for the re-
sumption of the adjourned debate,
The Earl of HA RDWICK E claimed the indulgence of the
House whilst he touched upon the important points in the
measure. He was unconnected with Ireland, and only ac-
quired the knowledge he had from the customary sources of
information ; but, if he had this d;sadvatitage, he was also free
from all local prejudices. He would not enter into any
portion of ti'e history of Ireland, except that por-
tion of it which was necessary for the elucidation
of the Bill before their Lord-hips' House. It was a principle
in the legislation of this country to consider and weigh well all
matters connected with the subject of religion before coming
to a decision on any particular case He would abstain far the
present in making any reference to the agitations which had
been and were still geing forward in Inland, except to say
that he felt certain the present unhappy state of
political parties tended much to increase the difficulty of car-
rying out the good intentions of the Government towards her
Majesty's subjects in that country. Not only did the state of
agitation do this, but it rendered a great portion of the people
of this country disinclined to assist in the good measures thus
proposed. He spoke thus more in sorrow than in anger.
But the case was clear it would have been much easier to have
carried the intention of the Government into execution had
agitation been abstained from by the people of that country.
He had been much struck with the narrow grounds on which
the debate was placed the previous night. The debate extended
itself no further than the walls of the College of
Maynooth, and having reference entirely to the religious doc-
trines and opinions taught there. No one in reviewing this
question could deny the great steps that had taken place in the
road of conciliating the Roman Catholics during the last fifty
years. Step by step had they gorse steadily forward, despite
the greatest difficulties and dissensions, aiding the
people of Ireland, and the religion of the great
body of the people of Ireland, till that country was nearly on an
equality in political privileges with this.—( Hear, hear.) Before
going further into the general question, he would refer to the
condition of the College. On this subject they had been fur-
nished with the most explicit evidence. The Noble Duke had
given a clear and detailed account of the origin and
progress of that Institution, and he had shown that from the great
increase of population the state of things had so changed, as to
render something necessary to be done. There were only
three courses left them to pursue. First, to keep it as it was;
second, to abolish it altogether ; third, to improve it in an efli-
cient manner. With rrgard to the first, it was impessibl,f to
continue it in its present state. By the document placed upon
the table of the House a few days ago it was shown that the
arrangements for the education of the students were of the
most imperfect character, and the accommodation of such a
nature as scarcely to accord with the rules of common de-
cency. It was evident the institution could not remain as it
was. The second course could not be entertained, as they
were under an obligation on the subject to the Roman
Catholics of Ireland, and to do so ould be to stop the amelio-
ration going forward in that country. The only course left
them was the third, and tat-.t. he was persuaded, was the best
to take in the circumstariees of the country, as it would only
be carrying out the original intention, when the grant was
first made—the principle of endowing and incorporating a
college for the education of the priesthood of the Roman
Catholic Church of Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) Was it alto-
gether so new, or so extremely alarming in itself,
that they should at this time place the College on a right foot-
ing, or bestow upon it an endowment? The Right Reverend
Prelate who had first addressed the House last night (the
Bishop of London) stated that the students of Maynooth
were takers from a very low class. Of that fact he was not
aware; but, on the contrary, was rather led to believe, from
an extract of the minutes of a report furnished by the Corn.
missioners of Inquiry on Education in Ireland, that the school
education necessary to an entrance into the College of May.
nooth was both important and expensive. It was incumbent
upon a candidate for admission into that College to have been
pr viously and thoroughly versed in Caviar's Commentaries,
Sallust, the Eclogues and first six books of the lEneid of
Virgil, the Cicero de Oratore, the Greek Grammar, the
Dialogues of Lucan, and the Cyclopedia of Xenophon—
a rather expensive education he should thick. He
would not press any further the demands of the
College itself, but that important part of the Bill introduc-
ing a new principle towards the Catholics of Ireland, that
which granted an endowment when endowments bad entailed
such important benefits on the Church of England, the system
must be for the benefit and advancement of religion generally.
But to this it might be answered that the principle should be
applied according to the tenets of the religion to be endowed—
such, however, he could not admit ; it was better to try and
inculcate a better than eradicate all principle. Had they not
given power and wealth and recently a much greater step had
been taken, the sanctioning the endowment by private indi-
viduals of the Church in that country ? That was not new in
reference to endowments. A Right Rev. Prelate, whom he
regretted not to see in his place, had stated last night that Ca-
nada and Malta were exceptions to that rule, but he could state
that in all their colonies it was carried out. On that subject
it was only necessary to show that in Mauritius the Protestant
Charch received 1,200/. a year, and the Catholic Church
2,500/. ; in St. Lucia the English minister received
300/., the Roman Catholic 440/.—and in a similar
manner was the same principle to be seen in British
Guiana, Trinidad, Gibraltar, and their other colonies. The
principle was not new, though in Ireland it might be consi-
dered as introduced for the first time. He felt ready and wil-
ling to see measures of amelioration carried out in Ireland to
the fullest extent, and felt convinced they could not shake the
stability of the Protestant Church in Ireland. Far from it.
They would rather strengthen it. It had not been shown that
the Roman Catholic Church was desirous of taking away the
property of the Established Church, or unwilling to give over
a sufficient power from that Church to the State. Doctor
Doyle and Mr. O'Connell had been examined before a Com-
mittee of that House, and they were both favourable to the in-
fluence of the State on the Roman Catholic Church, in a
temporal point of view. It had been said in opposition to this
measure, on the part of the Dissenting bodies, that the effect
of endowments was to support each other, and that was alleged
as an argument to induce the Roman Catholics of Ireland
to repudiate the endowment of their Church, as it
would tend to support the Established Church. But, on
the other hand, it had been said in that House,
that two antagonist Churches could not long co-exist. Now,
he was inclined to agree with the former opinion, and to Amit
that the two endow.non t 5 supported each other. Ile had a strong
opinien indeed that they do support- each other. It was in
he nature of all endov. men's to take an anti-democratic tea-
d,nc3. The endowment of the Roman Catholic Church in
Ireland would have the effect of separating the Roman Cathodes
from the other Dissenters, in opposition to the Established
Church. He denied that the disposition of the Roman Catho-
lics was adverse to the endowment of their Church. On the
contrary, he believed that the well-disposed classes in Ireland
had always shown a readiness to accept the patronage, and to
admit the reasonable control of the State.; The Noble Lord
then said, in a tone more audible and emphatic than the rest
of his address—" It is a grave question to ask, whence should
the funds for the endowment of the Established Church be
derived ? I will not assert —as it has with some show of reason
been asserted-estbat they should be abstracted from the funds of
the Established Church. I do not know it of my own
knowledge, but I have it upon authority which has been
laid before your Lordships, that there are 151 parishes in Ire-
land in which there is not a single Protestant, and that the ag-
gregate revenue of these parishes is 58,0001.—(Cheers.) I
say, that such a state of things is so monstrous, that it is not
astonishing, in the present state of human education, the minds
of men should consider it was time that this monstrous state of
things should be put an end to.—(Cheers.) This, I say again,
is a state of things which, if it does exit, should no longer be
suffered to exist.--(Hear, hear ) Those, my Lords, are my
own opinions, and not the opinion of anybody else,f and have
no connexion with the opinions of others. ( Hear' hear. )
These are opinions that have arisen in my own mind from my
knowledge of the history of that cuttotry, and from viewing
the state of it at a distance. They are opinions that I have
formed from being convinced that the endowment of the Ro-
man Catholic Church would not be followed by results such as
I have heard predicted, and from the conviction that no settle-
ment of the grievances of Ireland can be called such until it is

such a settlem-ent as will enable the people, not ofthat country
but of this, to view with satisfaction the state of things in
Ireland.—( Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord then called attention
to the state of the law as it affected different religious persua-
sions in differies countries on the Continent. The Protestant

and Catholic churches were seen to go hand in hand in those

countries. In Austria the Roman Catholic was the church of

the State ; but there also the Protestant faith was in jserfect
security. in Bavaria, the Catholic, the Presbyterian, and the
Lutheran, enjoyed
privileges all alike, and were on terms of per-
fect equality. In Prussia there were eight millions of Pro-
testants and five millions of Catholics. The King of Prussia
was the head of the Protestant Church, but he was also the

actual though not virtual head of the Roman Catholic Church

in that country.—( Hear, hear.) In Hanover the Roman
Catholics were eligible to all the public offices, and the
Roman Catholic churches were endowed by the State.
Throughout the whole of Europe they had this spectacle, but
in Ireland they had it not. This was a monstrous state of
things. In no other country could they find the same. In the
whole world was not to be found such another misgoverned
nation.—(Cheers.) In taking a review of the state of Ireland
it was impossible not to remember the growth of power of the
Roman Catholic people in Ireland. Parliament had at last

. .
given them property, and they had acquired wealth. They
had given them privileges equal to their own, and yet they re-
fused an alimentary support to their church---a support that
might be useful in extending education to the people. He was
as sincerely attached to his own church as any Protestant in
the empire, and because he was sincerely attached to his own
church he objected to any inquiry into the state of education
taught at Alaynooth. Before he sat down he should wish to
draw the attention of the House to a statement made by a
Noble Lord whom he did not then see present, who en-

.—.—.- ....-...
deavoured to charge the crimes of the country on the
instructors of the priesthood. He should read a few extracts
taken before a Committee of that House, in the year 1839.
The Noble Lord then proseeded to read from the report of
the Committee to show that Major Warburton, Mr. J. H.

Hamilton, and other witnesses gave evidence, proving that the
Roman Catholic priests in Ireland were most efficient pro-
moters of peace and obedience to the law, and that the charges
of sedition urged against them were infamous and unfounded.
The Noble Lord concluded by giving his support to the

motion.
Lord CARNARVON said, that if the Government were
to follow out their own p-iliey they would give an equal mea-
sure of justice to Ireland that they gave their coLnies. He
thought they wt re especially bound to do so, because Ireland
was more immediately at their mercy, and under their con-
trol. Surely it was unjust that they should refuse to Ireland
what they had granted to Cana is —(Cheers.) The Noble
Lord who had introduced the subject had told them how great
was the increase in the Roman Catholic population of Ireland,
since the first establishment of the College of Maynooth, and
the House might see that that vigour was not vonfined to the
ph)sical energies of the country; for if they looked to
the Bar or the Bench, or to the other House of Parliament,
they found ample evidence of Ireland's intellectual growth also.
If they refused to the growing number and power of the
Catholic people in Ireland that meaaura—a mama that was

the nearest and dearest to their hearts-the refusal Wineinele
sooner or later raise a storm which would in 11.15.°P to,
threaten the very existence of the Protestant Church.leu
...et,
lardd.--( Hear, hear.) If they could establishChu thet....Vbc,
rim lay between the Catholic and Protestant eharc..iliti
tween truth unalloyed on ore side, and truth pure and '''
on the other-but turn the matter as they
question was whether they would permit the Catholic
eptrili
have inadequate instruction or iristruc•ion in a sufficient form'
The idea expressed last night that an educated par:, ~:t4t'el
less practical and more dangerous man than an e°
&riled 05
one was a doctrine abhorrent to his mind, for it pro
11_,
mistaken assumption that a Roman Catholic priest wa!!."tho
ble of the influences of education. But do what they tingluiri;i
are and must remain the religious instructors of the
Ad
people.-( Hear, hear.) The question was whether they To
have them conciliated or opposed to them-attaoch. °,.4
migt, the practical
arrayed in hostility.-( Hear, hear. ) The Noble Lre
..71,,
that the measure would not pacify Ireland. But he wic51,`,.0
feetly convinced that it would have a beneficial
.oPth,
and to suppose the contrary, was to fIY ' :tsg,
face of all experience and human nature , ..ped
And they were to believe that, because one maneatal
the gift proffered his country; and for that they e
rtl.„:0,
nate a nation ungenerous, because an individual wasutoeLA
ful. And as to the political question, if it were a sin
rp,
a large, it was an equal sin to bestow a smaller or any ,_°,. Tot
ment. But as to the objection started by a Rev. Frelaii:ses,
night, that men who held one religion to be true. Inu:'-eafte,
the other to be false, he wholly dissented from it..
„...s`elfiie
was a strong term. Was there no medium ? for "'wolf
believed that the Church of Scotland chffered more
_IA
from the tenets of the Church of England, than the " Viree
of Rome did from the Church of England. Be did not
with the Right Rev. Prelate who addressed the li arfrepi
night. He did not believe the Catholic faith to be free told
error ; but he was inclined to improve that which n,ebed t 0
not alter.-( Hear, hear. ) Another point he wi,", the!
allude to. To be consistent in the P",rerhey bel
had been pursuing they should pass this ineasur,e.
..e-id nor-l'
appointed Roman Catholic priests to their gams "ban are'
houses-(Hear. hear)- and surely that was more to es
cognition of the Roman Catholic faith. Surely tiabefte the
criminal, whose
waphpeo,ei ntlassutcshanedhsapolaf inafowretrheeywacsotujoldg paowtayat.li:tedst at;
should have no religious consolation unless be 'v1,1,...,400
receive that only which the State would give
on 0, at I°
hear.) There was another point touched upon lag,,e ;tied/
which he would refer, and that was the disloyalty 10,11.'vretibr
of Maynooth. To this he would answer that when I.lr`flossa
terians of the North were excited into rebellion. wee. s
Catholic priesthood rallied round the tbrltoole°s
pthriteesattseneadlsoto stoinovdadebythtishe
coGnonvtreyrr Government when
t_ c _.io
when . ho_!' 0.0
of the Nore took place, the priests of that relnlneuero !rf,
their best influence to induce the deluded 04.! oe sioa
Butt "Dios
return to their allegiance.-( Hear, hear.) re rev er
this was not the case now that the priests we hiter,
and disaffected persons-mere political agitator:at: b., the aco
was true in this charge could easily be '7
pot
one"
tumely and neglect which had been manifested, 2ens
wards the Roman Catholic religion, but to all
tw
the WI;
belief in it.-( Hear, hear.) The treatultleicted to bad
Catholics had received was, in his opinion, Caw All that
pa'
Irish people away
the most ardent loyalty into the bitterest hate.
0, Ireland ~
taken place in reference to the Roman CathanSLTot no Of I:,
of such pa
nature as to turn the feelings and the sa;._bt bay"
18 bets
from this tiountry. no.
..„,
been said of the doctrines taught at 51aynootb• I_4_ witb I
proved that they were of an immoral nature; a' ion ot'h",
spect to the people of Ireland, much as th_eluntry whereretily
fled, it would be difficult to point out a c° more fa,ec pis
people were more moral, or the marriage "vii., Irish rtpolt
respected. Was it to be wondered at that.te,..„dthipsteo,
should be irritated and disaffected, when their.i';l been,le of
into consideration the way in which their creel'lo ae"-tbst
represented and reviled, and when it was kneawddjed uP?,n„ and
laws, the product of a former time, had be e° _ christia°l`' f°
Whate.terbia .
) •
country, repugnant to every principle of trniecr, bear. divot,
sound and enlightened political policv?---(r'nd the el bad
this was to be ascribed that state of ft:ding' 2,, tiale Pl° ' dal
oc
hi'.
apraaret
tye„ r
ithatsed atth theat
unhappy present
ctime/andcountry
. for 57
opobette.:
Jetta
But poesy j
had dawned; and a Government who won' esd Pei tart
community, were note qual to the task° aver es
govern Catholic Ireland upon such Ibe fot • fora grej
grounds, however well qualified they rateg" islatieg_trelse'
001; pool
empire like this, and especially for see!' aara to 'of the Is d
with its large Catholic ppulatiorn Willietaajest!„-daceal a„na
meetings that had been held in Ir,:land. was ''; a anue..sl
had been vindicated, a better state of feeliiting tried
hsvore
tpioolniesycoinulhdisnogov
the effect of a conciliatory policy was novl kind a°„
aledistiric;„-
anicr,euntotbwie,,esislindelie°3f(i
Lord-Lieutenant, who had, as yet, shoals VT, went `;
elongerrnm government
of
maintainedlre I and..
agreement with Irish interests and 'lrish sY and just, ce
Panay,
way, directly and indirectly, endeavouring "1„,,, tba Pei watt
partially towards the people of that coull",,leceed.-' once!
rosperity of Ireland could not be great sto be
hear.) The present measure was
ga, jtts 0 doing
and a debt of deep ratitude „v/ sod ilindsegerift
present Government for introducing',' , _..,d e _Kr
sacrificing friends, suffering misconstruction ifs of the
a+ disip.f
their popularity. These were °l many Frtforage °tore:
which ought to be paid them r their '
uch a °Not°, bee
terestedness in submittina• to Parliament 5 hear.) bad 01.`
justice to the people of Ireland.-( Hear, ' nor Oa! WI
standing the loss of supporters and the elar°" oeeeeilroatic",
Pr et ° i JP
raised out of doors against their enlightenedrest act of e, ej
would have the reflection of having done 3 e sod Pelt bteo
under very trying circumstances to an °Pr, ae OA
would command the approbation arid esteem e. eor
and liberal minds.-( Hear, hear.) with tooir who
The Earl of WINCHILSEA never roste,
emoojalioot bl
dieting feelings than at the present florae; -til
to 9°l;d °no(
he found himself opposed, on public great' ,_,,daiienl, tief
regarded in fact as Ministers of the country, ','e pales" friel
those with hom he had hitherto lived in wf those 4. se
friendship ;rand he trusted that when 03saY that° nig" 'aof
looked back, in years to come, upon the vote 0,
__ore, _tee
the two subsequent votes that'would ratify the 1°„ h!!„,
tatestn*l.test ncr
might not thee] that remorse which many a 5 hi§ .1,0 °i,
for the fatal measure of 1899 experienced %foto u`-ti it's
-( Hear, hear.) How had the question h'
pence woe
siory
cussed-how had its greatest d ablest saical ejj")-'
the other House ? B all
of jesai bear bito
and mystified sophistry- a(Crtrieasje of 'if estiroaebt eel'
which, after reading and reperusing, °lore beePt its,
to the conclusion that its propounder oust , raiesttio
cated in a seminary of Jesuits. 1e rotestscoho: pole; 0
the name of the Protestants of Engiel;ci' Other 0000 Peer
a it crowded their table, and in the , 00, ~,,. aes,
411 " II P". 1
amounted to more than 11,000, sigae- „0 el' ~ob
sons. He protested, however, against it. "„o Chwiote,
grounds-that, as a national endowment 01 the oleo of
Rome, it was in opposition to their Gods
of the Clii a tea
taine doctrines taught in the class-books
1430 op :ow,
Maynooth were so monstrous that no Man. „tionslYtmeat°
tenets of the Anglican Church, could conscie,i;tion °f e del
them-the supremacy of the Pope, the reser .orio,
the aif
inculcated by the principle of salvo jure se, nor nj Of
ration of the superiority of the ecclesiastical.eisuotion as
ration
power -were doctrines sts ..bhorrent to Prot! latter nos
aoss,
of the it bad 01
principles of the realm, that no member .„. _toe le
could possibly consent to their promulganhe edin'.,eatit;
said that this grant of 30,0001. would render_
_t whit rot:,
Maynooth less exclusive and more liberal...eP_loniee°e a '.,'
had they that such would be the case? 1! tri, oiegecs) sal;
would be a mental delusion if they Passe' d Beau° 01 nt
he called upon the .Noble Lord behind (L°re tbe ifellein tb
other Noble Lords to stand forward and sa: ~,obt $ll tl
of the Irish people from the principle '4'
catbobesoo Oleos
seminary. Let them give to the Rowena _Atteatt o tarn,
require excepting this support to a system
_o7ed totret i,
England conscientiously believed to be oln't iinporhst GS
worship of God. It was, indeed, a 1117,d fairlry wets,
seri-u„, qu,qth.m. hut let them do honest!): aired froin,bo 'cot
their eon ,eienc,,,, and their country, e5(l Hi; hard'obip, ;Iv
(Ch,ers)-and let liet leave the i,..stle
"'their Let ban t
41)i,, to ”3.,,e them. woeld call upon
mild ''Y' tbs° ter
to abandon thitr sacred dutie, and he W,_.., totherd.e Stir
Right Reverend Priate who spoke last, tned by
..,w, entfror
doctrines so opposed to Christianity recor,:is utin.(_'ctr; I!„
he should with him raise his voice, and OE
,:;31 tbe :,late;
tort;o
yours to sever the Protestant Church Iri_cted. AOO el
would he rest until that severance were e 4 fogl3o.r hydro
sure could not pass, for the Protestantisol:.,cate fircoaces!eg
strong to allow the Government toe educate
iinu_sidero6
priests without the people making Lordship, to coP oat. 0
. _oh
or
stand against it. He prayed theirarouse OP' b 15
ld arou vi,
.c
ere they pas-ed a measure which hostile feelings _iingg Oi
rdsh,o
length and width of the country hostile le.
heir t° etielel
not again be easily allayed. that whe° r, all I°oo
The Marquis of NORMA NB Ysaid
trusted
°- the' p
recollected the part which he had alwaYs ted
ha trtls-„, 11_0e/0'
connected with the state of Ireland, e-, that bus -ale
pardon his trespassing on their attention b nor
a tbeir lrffed,
aware how difficult it would be to engaq tient 011. tieia 70.
sideration after the energetic and the eiesq..o, di! ~host,og
Noble Earl who had just sat down-ael; whien;eoortio,
too, for the depth of the religious co
could not beep loofa: no
ised it. But he (Lord Norrnanby) hs,j jus!,,,olteniad
that from the Noble Lord opposite, who had jos
tirestioe the
amendment, down to the Noble Earl who 4be ~f
a the ie4 - e "-
Noble Lord who had adopted that vie': ioooolo of
once addre-sed himself to the real qu,s_r isistio
..eigater;
Noble Duke-namely, that this was a leg toseilioble or
justice to seven millions of Irish Catho ILT -; the to the cod
the population of a great are] " dullest° he Selged
made reference to the state of igious
.e
,r_iend t
__re 01) . of
nies, he was oblige, to refer to his Noble
.1;!,,, we nosen...o
of State for the Colonies for the fact irEitab!'.:"the °Lo
to maintain other churches than thee_,_ so lridioe ti_ lit.
England. It was proved in those . ' force re 114 t.°lo,
of Ireland, that it was utrrly imPib'•aestiouill °Pertbeiffall
a large mass of people w o were con*V ,_d said 4h„ ore
With regard to what the Noble Ear/. ?"_t Ajoynetio,(l,..iti
montaine doctrines alleged to be tau gh!.,' d pear Resto',.,
Noble nor . tbe dee.
answer had been given by the ot elaun Vet& said
Beaumont). The Romish Church did nasal of a
ef re ir
_.so
to release from an oath-not even an_ aothorSofeb oe
(Hear, Lear.) The Church claimed the
, of th° oacis' life'
from a vow, to which the authonti.eitereot groe ic
,ej,
parties. An oath stood upon quite d 11_ I'rof3.'43_ 0103!:,!;3.
Rev. Mathias Croly, who had been
ata_ having s (it,t 0
nooth, and was now a Protestant clergy,
_ft'cd, be.lo:;efe :00
what were called the errors of PoperY, °T. that e,st be em_ere
mittee of the other House of Parlistne%coth, trl_,.erear (A
taught to believe, when a student of 318 Y
other oatb• There Dot
any - •n he e 1P",
violate the oath of allegiance or . _ wnic t taell _oratsl
many books read in Maynooth Collegried (bat at
defend. But it had been truly ealut.„oo or „ ede os
were made class-books for the avowed pi I:,oung nio!,,,t Ir,_ot
duct of ale 7 ail au eesinu g
study.-( Hear, hear.) The conduct of
__‘, gam ,rbe
lid po
in that College proved that there .
1 Efear, heaf•)..etion b_,.dielf
the course of study taught there.--(e,
...„.115 ipstru_e, saesejos.
of the people also showed that the r_ I,TBl"There woe
an immoral tendency.-( Hear, hear' i epinst P aeons eat to
to the official returns,
seven % crimesulation ntririth resP were
nutted in England-taking t e P°P, bear.) lo°lolll
thirty committed in Ireland.'-( }pear, bear.
that the_,„er „,,1
to be denied f 11a 1""' is ""- )
temperance, it was not
• to that o
.was
heir.
now in a position superior a that (heart •abee
)-"" • sts•--" the b' we
in the world - (Hear, hear) tie- prie- •,,ag - e orr
a proof of the useful influence oLoed
opposite 'Pewit ol,icg,
It had been said by a Noble the ena Mee' bathe
' I conferences nest , t ,
settled in their periodical
b fore their teasels, /Har.
which was to be committed
estrous a rnigstso- t-•"k s,
(Hear, hear.) That was so rn?n . y ,isooa gees odvett
would not detain their Lordships D . d
here b°- re bs robe
mit that t ut there a ._
hear.) He was ready to ad
Ist year- 13, a with tri....se l'
increase of crime within. the
%bout arrnes_, the Way': fle
to account for it, wi itribte" ries° 0S
many causes
wcastle), who a of the Pd to
.„14
Duke (the Duke of Ne
nd the conduct
_woe o ebe'd
the conference of bishops, a
constant and
violence'uuw too hse
could bear testimony to the
to restrain ._ env. Prelate (th
of the Roman Catholic
order.riests---(flesrp' env. , eibui.
immorality, and to inculcate Right .- ~,,, to 011 wool"
h of the son 1 •ty V., .
heard with regret the spf•ec
chart
004
Bishop of Cashel) last night, which
s• ;.9 of syloPath,,.7 :noni Ow atettd
bited by no means ase I.sis am Rev. prole „or
Christians, Res. row •
millions of his fellow The Bight . to the ,P. clergl ~
was ordained.-( Hear, hear.)
ent mauo bs Ul'• et IP-
appointo . teci to egion es.
that there might be some
be ett1,ec...,,0 roa ° sen
which would his ° f
ships in Maynooth , ,
tions were ase-- oin - ot. o _
Suppose it were ? Objec
He had an instao.,noistinei. OOP
elevation of an individual.
made to a" 16r, Ssou'r:- 0°
perience of objections being
a....e
~......th, I,,t,lear, heae)ciergy
cl,•rgymari in every respect qu lin 0
bishopric.--(11_03 to di isolatr°
he had recommended to a . ,
ellent mkt Rev.
would contrast the charge of tbaL of the Bir .000
of his diocese with the last charge
!to 000
opposite. CALL olds that
The Bishop of