The Sun.
London, England, 1842-03-08 00:00:00

THE SUN, LONDON, TUESDAY EVENING, MARCH 8, 1842.1

the Mediterranean it would have been defeated. There were
at that time 750 supernumerary marines at the disposal of that
fleet, who could have been put on board those ships if required,
and he (Sir Thomas Trowbridge) confidently stated that the
result of any action with the French fleet would be very diffe •
rent from what had been state.d.ll3s_the, Hon. and • Gallant Gen-
tleman. He thought his Gallant Friend's ideas were quite
extraordinary, and he must say that he had been much aston-
ished to hear so many Naval Officers speaking in such a way
as not to uphold bet altoeather depreciate the character of the
British Navy. Oct another occasion he should speak
more at
length on this subject.
Sir C. NAPIER wished to explain. There never were 750
marines at their disposal. There were 250 marines, but that did
not supply the deficiency, kr they were 100 men short, and had
134 sick. The Gallant Officers there did not know what it was
to be beaten. He did.—(Laughter. ) Ile was beaten once by
the French fleet, when he was under-manned. He was
beaten; his mainmast knocked down; and if the French had
stunk to him, he should not have been there now.
Captain I:AYARD wished to know if it was the inten-
tion of the Government to niake any alterations as to
the time when soldiers might obtain a free discharge. He had
been informed that at present, after having served ten years, a
cavalry soldier could obtain his discharge by paying 2!1., and
an infantry soldier by the peyment of 15/. After 12 years' ser-
vice, a cavalry soldier must pay 15/., and an infantry'soldier 101.
for his discharge. After 14 years' service, a cavalry soldier
must pay 19/. and an infantry soldier Si. After 15 years' ser-
vice the cavalry soldier must pay 6/. and the infantry soldier
gets a free discharge. He (Capt. Layard) believed it would
add to the benefit of the service, if, after 10 years, an in.
fantry soldier might claim a free discharge. He believed
that, considering the position of the country at present, that it
was absolutely necessary that there should be more men. If
anything should occur in India, our forces would, no doubt, be
attacked by the Burmese, and the probability was we should
be defeated.
Sir H. HARDINGE said tlie improvements which were
proposed would have the mo.t beneficial effect upon the army.
Many fathers of families, who had formerly prevented their sons
from entering the army, were now infinitely more inclined to
let their sous enlist. With regard to the pensioners it was a
very difficult question. He had already frequently expre.sed
his sentiments in that House and elsewhere upon that subject.
They were reduced 17,000/. since 1829, yet the question in-
volved so many grave and serious considerations, and more par-
ticularly considering the state of the finances of the country,
the question deserved the most serious attention of Govern-
ment.--( Hear, hear.) In 1829 when he first formed his war-
rant it was submitted to the then Government with the Duke
of Wellington at its head, and they gave their concurrence to
that plan ; with regard to the amendment of the Hon. Mem-
ber for Coventry, he (Sir H. Hardinge) hoped he would not
press it to a division. With regard to the pensions of half-pay
officers, there was a very large reduction. Out of 17,426,
nearly one-third had died, the diminution in the public ex-
penses was 618,9001. He could go through the estimate,
giving an account in detail, but it would really occupy the
time of the Committee too much, if he were to attempt to
answer every question of the Hon. Gentleman. There were
no less than 6,745 officers who bad died off the half-pay list,
and he hoped that would satisfy the appetite—( A laugh )—uf
the Hon. Gentlemat: opposite (Mr. Williams). he present
number of troo:s are not kept in this country merely to keep
down disturbance, but it was proposed to increase them on ac •
ceunt of the pressure which was so great upon them abroad.
That pr:ssure was so great, that many regiments had been
fifteen and twenty years in India. Was that a fit or a proper
state of things?—(l-tear, hear.) It was to relieve that pressure
that the increase of troops was proposed; it was absolutely re-
quested both for the efficiency of the service and to secure to
•he troops that humane and generous support which they ought
to receive.—( Hear. )

Viscount HOWICK, who spoke in a very inaudible tone of
voice, was understood to say that this question should be con-
sidred with reference to the finances of the country. He was
,ejoiced to see that the Right Hon. and Gallant Officer was
now satisfied with the effect of the warrant of 1833. The con-
cluding ob ervations of the Noble Viscount were inaudible in
the Gallery.
Sir H. HARDINGE said the Noble Viscount must have
misconceived what he stated; as to pensions ; his opinions had
undergone no change. When he brought the subject under
the consideration of the Government of that day, they had ap-
proved of his (Sir IL Hardinge's) plan. However he was
satisfied that a great modification must take place even in the
existing warrant, and he still reaerated the opinion, that the
warrant proposed by Sir J. Cam Hobhouse was very moderate.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that when the Right Honour-
able Gentleman stated that Sir J. Cam flobhouse's warrant was
insufficient, it was to be hoped he (Sir H. Hardinge)
would not fall into the error of falling back upon the former
warrant, and giving soldiers retiring pay whose conduct slid
not entitle them to it ; he (Lord J. Russell) had received let-
'era from several Colonels in the army, complaining that men
who had conducted themselves in an improper manner were
intitled to, and had received pensions, just as well as if they
had been persons of good conduct.

Mr. WILLIAMS did not understand what .the Right lion.
Gentleman (Sir El. Hartlinge).meant by expressing a hope
that the death of so many half-pay effie, rs should satisfy his
(Mr. Williams's) appetite.—(Laughter.) Ile did not know
what that meant, but he supposed it was a military tern,—
( Laughter '—how ever, he was sent there by his constituency,
and when he saw the state of distress and des.itution in which
the country was placed, he did not think that the Army should
be exempted from duties which they had formerly
performed ; he objected to all further taxation, and
he had also to state that he was not at al
sat stied with explanation which the Right Hon. Gentleman
had given with regard to officers on half-pay. Ile had met
many of those gentlemen in all ranks and stations of society,
and he knew that many of them mere most anxious to serve—
their health and constitution enabled them to t'o so; but he
(Mr. Williams) dared say that in consequence of the number of
applications for ensigncies, that were from time to time made
to Hon. Gentlemen who had'the disposal of these situations, it
might have been deemed expedient not to call upon the services
of retired officers ; however, these were the things which in-
creased the tublic expenditure.—( Hear,. hear.) Still
after the statement of the Right Hon Gentleman cpposite,
that such a large force. was absolutely required for the public
service, he (Mr. Williams)', would not feel himself justified in
proposing ar.y amendment, and he would ther fore withdraw
his motion.—( Hear.)) The motion was then wiqidrawn.
Mr. O'CONNELL. wished to make one observation in re-
ference to the Canada question. He had lately, upon more oc-
casions than one, the necessity of calling, the attention of the
House to the party spirit, of
;a very. violent description, which
existed among the Militia corps in Canada. Now there was
nothing more remarkable among the soldiery of this country
than their total abstinence from all party spirit. In Ireland
and other places, whenever the military happened to be
called upon, they never upon any occa.sion whatever
evinced the least prejudice or party feeling ; it was not so in
Canada or amongst the local soldiery there. Now, if it was
.ritended to raise the corps in
ufficiently guarded against. Ctahnea dra ,e
etrl luaitti neav i
isw
not l d t
on
beot bi
e
Sir H. H ARDINGE—The men are British soldie..s.
Mr. O'CONNELL—Then
Canada ?

0 bjoe
icititobnesvhoetesvbaesi
nagbopurtotpoesmake
that
e3re,5717507v5e
id..
be
Sir H. HARDINGE—No.
Mr. O'CONNELL then stated, since that was the case, the
the expenses of her Majesty's land forces for the ensuing year,
Mr. WILLIAMS moved an amendment that that sum be
reduced by 63,918/.. on account of the extra pay given to her
taken
Majesty's Horse and Life Guards. granted for
Sir 11. HARDINGE said before the Hon. Gentleman per-
sisted in dividing the House upon his amendment, he ought to
be as are that for the last twenty-tive years that question had
been considered as determined both in Parliament and in Com-
mittee, iet t
wholee , ri di
t also
had
by th o'
e who
o were
that
be
Guards
been
tormA their duties in London in a most efficient manner.
The residence of a soldier in London
the
the Liberal
had
a i party.wa,always
p On
was much more expensive
than country quarters. In
fact, it was well known and ad-
mitted that the office's of the Guards had given their services to
the country almost for nothing.—( Hear, hear.) In the field,
as well as for their subordination to the civil authorities of the
country, and the admirable manner iu which they invariably
conducted themselves, there was no body of men more die.
tinguished than her Majesty's Guards—( Hear, hear)—nor
better adapteelto the-performance of their-duties. Under such
circumstances he hope.] the Hon. Gentleman would not press
his amendment to a division.
Colonel RAWDON said he would walk out of the House
if the Honourable Member for Coventry pressed his motion
to a division. With regard to the addition to the expenses
upon the country, which had been alluded to, he should state
that the difference between an ensign's pay and the, pay of an
officer of the same rant in the Guards was only three-peace a
day ; when the Committee remembered that an officer in the
Guards was obliged to live in London at great expense, in his
own lodgings, having not the benefit of mess—having not the
benefits of barracks, or fuel, or light, or any of those other ad.
vantages which were afforded to officers of th- Line, he was
sure the Hon. Member for Coventry must see that three-pence
a day for an officer of the Guards beyond the pay of an
officer of the Line was very insufficient—( Bear, hear. )
He believed that the difference between the pay of a Lieuten-
ant of the Line end one of the Guards was 10(1. per day. The
higher the rank of each officer, of course the larger his pay and
the greater the difference. It must be notorious to every one
that in London.' tlie•eipens,s of an officer were much greater
than in other places, and the ay of those quartered there ought
accordingly to be higher. However, of course it was for the
House to decide the. question.
Colonel 11031 AS WOOD said that whatever might be
the advantages which the Household troops possessed, they well
earned them. It was not for him to draw any comparisons be-
tween the various branches of her Majesty's troops ; bat he
must say that the Household troops were as good and as efficient
as any branch of the troops in her Majesty's service.
Air. WIL LIAAIS had only referred to the difTzrenee between
the pay of the officers of the Line and of those of the Guards.
He had not raissd any question whether they were paid too
much or too little, nor had he made any observation relative to
the conduct of the Guards. However, he was not aware that
the Household troops were in any degree superior to those of
the Line, and he should divide the Committee on the vote.
Captain BERKELEY requested the Hon, Gentleman net
to press his amendment to a division. If he did so, he (Capt.
B.) should vote against him.
fhe Committee divided, when there appeared—
For the motion 144
For the amendment . .............. .' l2
Majority... —l32
The vote was then agreed to.
•
The following votes were then agreed t 0;"...
166 922/. for defraying the charges and expenses of general
staff officers.
82,467/. 'allowance for the principal publics officers of the
Military Department.
5301. for repairing . the damages done to tbe as•i!t___ _ Collet;
slit ary
i May, 1841 ; and .'
by the thunder-stormt_ 15,0901. fur defray-
)Rl Military
sof the oaAsylum and the fiber.
by
the expense
clan Military Schools.
• 458/. be granted to her Majesty On the vote that 82, for de-
fraying
of the Volunteer Corps being put,
the charges ,
said that he would take
Committee on that Mr,
vote. It . Hume were in the House,
he would have pressed the motion to a division.
The Committee then divided, and the numbers wet e--
For the ritant .................... .... ..., 133 -

Against it . ................. ............. ... 17
Majority for the gran. .............. 116
The vote was then agreed to.
The fullowing votes were then put,fa, acuedrsa:frehea:rtomwa
Majesty's
and reduced
of retired officers of
I.ffireeedderuose.ed allowances of the
discussion
47:2for:0co..,:f..fo—orfrot
trhbetehpefauyl
half-payio.. fpagyeno
efarnaarndel
for the pensions and allowances to
land forcer.
land forces.
o fl 150c8en'r4s3tio: of the .tyhtfe: for
oortfe_hiegl4nhi half-pay

He was. more pat titularly induced to
umtge
ntahnatsts , a n d
ellioaffirncertsheof low rank. For instance,
r i
ne.
ip le Gallanto
nO
whichffice'r w-t• oh—uv ls. .1:
the widows of office's,
a great number of the
Mr. WILLIAMS said, p!rhaps thep
pensionshr
ea
ev i have
:en no t s
granted.l,.
widows
otwo
s eo xf
el vim or after they had
ask thin
245 of ensigns and
ew eqreuei4o ti
widows from oobfselriev
comets. He wished to know whether they were the widows of
retired. •
Sir H. HARDINGE stated unless he officer had retired on
officers who had died in actual
half-pay, fo:. wounds or infirmities contracted in the service, the
widow was not entitled to a pension; or if he retired after

twenty years service, then the widow was also entitled. The
case the Hon. Member had alluded to, of an old officer mar-
rying, and thus entailing a heavy expense on the ccuntry, was
barred by the regulation that if an officer married after the age
of sixty, his widow was not entitled to a pension.
Mr. CURTEISIad been watching for the entrance of an
Honourable Gentleman opposite, but as he was not in
his place, he must throw himself on the courtesy
of the House, as he wished to state a fact relative
to the character of a gentleman.
Sir 11. HARDING E intimated to the Hon. Gentleman that
the Navy Estimates would come on during the evening, when
he would have the opportunity of making his statement.
Mr CURTEIS acceded to the proposition.
The following grants were then severally agreed to : 120,500/.
for the in-rease of allowances consequent on the p•om)tien.
1,231,414/ for defraying the charges of Chelsea and Kilmain-
ham Hospitals.
41,0001. for allowances and compensations in the nature of
superannuations, and retired allowances to persons formerly be-
longing to the 061 establishments of the army.
Mt. WILLIAMS could not help being struck with the large
sum sot down to the retired clerks.

Sir 11. II ARDINGE stated that they were a most deserving
class of men, and mentioned the case of Mr. Moore, the brother 6
of Sir J. Moore, who, because he was obliged to reside abroad,
voluntarily and from patriotic motives, resigned a pension of
8001. per annum. The vote was then agreed to.
THE NAVY ESTIMATES.

On the mo.ion that a sum not exceeding 2,980/. be granted
to her Majesty to defray the expenses of the office for the re.
gister of merchant seamen,
Mr. CURTEIS said he would not trouble the House at any
greater length than he could avoid, but considering the cha-
racter of young man of importance, and having travelled
sixty miles for the purpose of vindicating it, he trusted that
the House would grant him a patient hearing. The speech of
the Gallant Captain opposite (Captain Rous) as reported in
the Morning Chronicle in reference to Mr. Elton, was grossly
incJrrect. In the first place he differed very materially from
the Gsliant Captain, the Member for Westminster, when he
stated that the Admiralty had not supported the discipline of
the Navy by remitting the remaining portion of the sentence.
He believed that he spoke the sentiments of society generally,
and the world at large, when he declared that it was
their conviction that the sentence originally passed
upon Mr. Elton was an unnecessarily severe one, and that the
Admiralty had exercised a sound and judicious discretion in
extending their clemency to that gentleman. He was at issue
with the Gallant Officers of the Navy, as to the want of
etiquette displayed by a Midshipman, in requesting a favour,
nut from a commanding officer, but from a surior officer
in the Navy. The application was made by a Midshipman to
a gentleman, who had very recently been made a Captain, and
who had served as Lieutenant in a ship in which Mr.
Elton was Midshipman. It was an application, not as the
Gallant Captain had stated, that he would grant a boat
to a gentleman who was travelling on the coast of Syria,
but that he would allow a boat, after conveying Captain
Williams to his own ship, to proceed from thence to the coast
of Syria, which would have occupied twenty minutes additional
time. No answer was returned to the application, although
it was proved to be not an unreasonable one, by the fact that
one of the Lieutenants of the ship, viva voce, made the same
request to•C;aptain Williams, and was refused. He was not
surprized that Midshipmen of the Navy should draw figures of
slaves, when such servile marks of distinction were kept up be-
tween the Captains of the Navy and those who were under
their command. He begged to say that those Midshipmen
had the same feelings as their superior officers; that, generally
speaking, they were their equals in birth and station,
and that there ought not therefore to be such
a distinction between them that a young officer,
a Midshipman, might not in the most polite terms make such a
request as had been made in this case. The favour requested
was of the most trivial description ; had he (Mr. Curteis)
been a traveller in that part of the world, he would have
thought it ungenerous and most unkind of any Captain
in the Navy to deny to him so slight a favour.
Not only in his (Mr. Curteis) view of the mat-
ter had he erred greatly,
,in refusing to extend so small
a favour to a brother officer. Previous to this affair he had
not known either of the parties concerned. Having seen Mr.
Elton since, and thinking his case one of hardship, he had
taken up the ma ter upon public grounds. He now
came to a point in which he did not hesitate
to say that Ma Elton was in the wrong. He
(Mr. Curteis) did not stand there to defend that letter
which, in a moment of impatience an 4 anger, lie wrote to Cap-
tain Williams; he hesitated not to sty that for that impru-
dent letter, he deserved dismissal from the service. But it
should be recollected that he afterwards took the very first op-
portunity of offering an apology. What was the demand of Cap-
tain Williams ? Ile demanded not only an opology for that letter
but also an apology fur the original letter, requesting that he
would confer u„on Mr. Elton the favour of allowing Iris friend
to be taken from the vessel to the shore. New, that an apology
was necessary, and ought to have been promptly given for the
seeond letter, there could be no manner of doubt ; but it war
not equally clear that an apology was required for
the first. Mr. Elton was afterwards brought to a
court-martial, and be was bold to say, in the face of that
Mils a and of the world, not indeed that they were culpable
irregularities, but that there were some very unusual circum-
stances attending thecourt-atartial. Ile believed that he
stated an undeniable fact, when he asserted that one of the
officers who eat as the judges upon that occasion, was
called upon to give his testimony as a witness ,
and he had the authority of officers of both profes-
:La's, that it was a most unusual circumstance for an
Officer presiding as a Judge to be called as a witness. It
.was indeed true that he was called also for the defence, and
that the evidence on the one side might be weighed against that
oa the other; but for the defence, or for the charge, he
believed that thero was great irregularity in the pro-
ceeding. But ho believed further, that in the eyes
of the world it did seem extraordinary that a per-
son should be first dismissed from her Majesty's ser-
vice, anti then, when he no longer belonged to that service,
for almost an inlefintte time, the sentence was that he should
be imprisoned, but that his imprisonment should not
commence until after he had arrived in England. The
consequt nee was that this young man was treated as
a prisoner for several months before his imprisonment,
in the Mat shalsea commenced. And he contended that it
was but an act of justice on the part of the Admiralty to take
that fact into consideration. Magistrates at Quarter Sessions,
and Judges at Assize, were in the constant habit of taking into
account the confinement which had been suffered be-
fore a prisoner was brought to trial. The Gallant Cap-
tain had asserted that that portion of the imprisonment,
could not properly form a portion of the sentence. That cer-
tainly was a very extraordinary assertion. The Gallant Cap-
tain, the Member for Westminster, had asserted that the
additional imprisonment was caused by the circumstance that
the comrades of this Gallant Midshipman—not only in his own
ship bat throughout the fleet—had intended to give
him a triumphal dinner, that was to say, they meant to
give him a farewell dinner. Was that any ground for this ad-
ditional imprisonment ? He saw the Gallant Captain shake his
head, but he appealed from the Gallant Captain to the Gallant
Admiral. Which of these authorities was he to believe? Un-
doubtedly on that occasion he was rather taking the
Admiralty under his shelter. —( Great laughter.) He
entirely approved of their conduct —he thought they
showed themselves to be men of feeling and discretion. In
their conduat, in reference to this matter, they exercised a pro-
per discretion, and showed that they would not allow them-
selves to be misled by others. 'that was his (Mr. Curteis')
, opinion of their conduct, and he felt sure that that opinion was
re-echoed without those walls. He new came to another
point. He believed that the Adraitalty would have remitted
the sentence on the young man's return to this country had he
' he not, with a fatality which certainly seemed extraordinary,
brought himself again into a scrape—( Laughter). 'What he
IIOW complained of in the Gallant Captain opposite was, not
that he had asserted that Mr Elton gave the lie to the Comman-
der of the ship in which he was placed, but as he had told him in
r:vate that he had forgot to state any of the extenuating cir-
cumstances. To show that he had not taken up the case on
frivolous grounds, ho would read to the House a document
which he considered to be of some importance. In a visit which
he had paid to Mr. Elton in the Marshalsea, hu
had shown him this document, and had called
upon him as a gentleman to examine it and state whether or not
it was correct in every particular. Mr. Elton having complied
stated that it was so. Even after this, fearing that he should
cave read it inattentively, he had in the presence of
two other gentlemen, repeated his request, begging
him again to read it deliberately, and inform him whether
or not, it was accurate in every particular. The only mistake
which he mentioned was the use of the word "bailiff," which
(as we understood the Right Hon. Member) ought, according
to the phraseology of the Admiralty, to have been " mes-
senger.' On his asking him whether the statement was cx-
augerated, his reply was—" Quite the contrary."—( Hear. )
fie did not mean to defend his conduct to Capt. Lawrence, but
it was not the fact that his conduct was unprovoked, as stated
by the Gallant Captain. The latter, he held, was, he believed,
correct in every particular. It stated, " that it appeared very
extraordinary that, after having made an unreserved apo-
logy, he should be treated as he had been; that he had
been taken by the Hercules to Malta, where he remained
far five weeks confined in the cock pit, where no officer
was allowed to speak to him. He had been sent on board the
Prometheus to Gibraltar"—on board which, he may be al-
lowed to say in passing, that he had been treated with the
greatest courtesy by the Commander—" and from the Pro-
metheus he was transferred to the Hastings, where he was
again put into close confinement in the cockpit,
where no person was allowed to speak to speak to
him except the servants who brought him food ;
that he was not allowed either wine or spirits, but that some
of those restrictions were removed when he arrived at St.
flel,n's ; that be was then taken from the Hastings, and
brought from thence between two men, like a common felon,
in a second-class carriage to London, by the Southampton
Railway." It was harsh treatment towards a person in the
position of a gentleman, and whise family were highly respect-
able, to be taken in this manner—the gaze of everybody—and
lodged in the Marshalsea. That he considered to be very
hard treatment to a person of 19 years of age, the son of Sir
A. Elton, who, he perceived by the papers, had lately died.
" After his arrival ir. England, he was given to understand
that his punishment would be forgiven, but that, in conse-
quence of his conduct to Capt. Lawrence, he was informed the
sentence would be carried into effect." He now came to show
the provocation which Mr. Elton had received to account for
his conduct to Capt. Lawrence, and he contended that he was
not at the time amenable to martial law.

An Hort. MEILBE it—He had no right then to be in uniform.
Mr. CURTEIS—Why was ho allowed to be in uniform ?
( Hear, hear.) But the statement went on to say, " that
Mr. Elton was walking on the quarter-deck, and was talking to
the Mate of the ship, when Captain Lawrence rushed from the
cabin and upbraided the Mate for daring to talk with a person
who was disgraced, and who disgraced the service; and turning
to Mr. Elton, he said, ' flow dare you speak to one of my
,fficers ; you are a disgrace to the service?' Upon which
he unfortunate young man, being goaded to desperation by
he appearance of unceasing persecution towards him, and under
the impression that he was no longer in the Navy, told
Captain Lawrence that he was a liar, but that he afterwards
sent an apology." lie (Mr. C.) differed from the Gam*.
Admiral, who stated the other evening that the apology w
sent after Mr. Elton had been in thellarshalsea ; but the fact
w.,s that it bad been sent before.- He thought he had made
out a sufficient case to show that Mr. Elton had received grea
provocation, and he believed if he had struck Captain Lawrence
he would have been amenable not to martial law but to the
civil law. He wished it to be understood that Captain Law-
rence had exerted himself to get Mr. Elton 's sentence
remitted. He believed what the Gallant Admiral
had stated the other night was correct ; and, there •
fore he did not wish to impute anything to Captain
Williams except that he was the o-iginal cause of the whole
affair, and, at all events had not treated Mr. Reid, the tra-
veller with the courtesy which he might have expected. IL!
'believed that Mr. Elton deserved dismissal from the service,
but he did not think that he ought to receive additional punish-
ment, because a dinner was about to be given hint. He did
accuse Captain Lawrence of being in a passion, and
forgetting himself, when he used the expressions he did to-
wards Mr. Elton, but of more than that he did not ac-
cuse him. Neither had he any charge to bring against Capt.
Williams, and all he was anxious for was that im-
partial justice should be done to all parties—( Hear.
He perceived that the Gallant Officer below him was ready to
bring down upon him the force of the " Thunderer."—
( Laughter.) lie informed the Gallant Captain that it was his
intention to bring the subject forward, who told him that it
was a pity the subject should be again mooted.—(Cheers.)
He thought it no undue course to pursue to follow up the
matter .as he was doing, for he did not bring ary charges

against any person. The Gallant Captain had informed him .
that when Mr. Elton was under his command he could have
dismisse d him [entirely from the service, and so far disgraced
him, but he believed the only cause he would have for doing
so was that he exceeded his leave of absence ten or twelve days,
and he must say that if the Gallant Captain through kindness
of heart did not follow it. up, Mr. Elton was under deep obli-
gation to him. But still it did not appear to him that the
charge was of much importance. Ile believed in what he had
stated that he had not saida single tittle which was not borne out
in fact; and if he were deceived, no person could feel more
indignant than he (Mr. Curteis). In conclusion, he would
only say, as he had begun, that he entirely approved of the
conduct of the Admiralty in remitting Mr. Elton's punishment.
Captain BERKELEY said that the Honourable Gen-
tleman who , had just sat, down having at the con-
clus'on of lire speeek, spr:i.ise'st."him for his clemency,
to Mr. Elton, he,could only say that he rejected the praise,
because if he had done his duty the House would never have
heard of the subject which was now before them, and the pub-
lic would never have been troubled with Mr. Elton, had he
dismissed him from her Majesty's service.—( Hear, hear. )
He said this the more readily as Mr. Elton and
his friends were not unknown to him as they were
to the Honourable Gentleman, and neither was Captain
Williams mild-town to him as he was to the Hon. Member.—
( Hear, hear.) Mr. Elton's friends happened to be supporters
of a relation of his who had a sea' in that House, so that if he
had a leaning at all, it would be towards Mr. Elton.
Mr. Elton -joined the Hercules as a volunteer of the first
class when Captain Williams was Lieutenant, whom,
when promotions took place at the:: Coronation, he recent'-
, mended to Lord Minto for his good temper as an officer who
deserved advancement, and he had received the common cer-
tificate which, as the Gallant. Officer knew, was merely given
for the purpose of carrying their time: On his (Captain
Berkeley's) joining the Thunderer, he wrote to Mr.
Elton's father, to say that he had a vacancy in his vessel
if his boy were unemployed, and Captain Williams was then
appointed commander of that vessel. He could not say whether .
Captain Williams was in the ship at the time or not, but, at all
events, he was acquainted with every thing that was going for-'
ward till they left Plymouth, and,consequently, he was aware of
every thing of which Mr. Elton had been guilty. He
considered the answer he had received a few evenings ago from
the Gallant Officer opposite, to the question he had put, was
perfectly satisfactory, and that the question had been set at rest,
and that there would not have been another word on the sub-
ject actor the court martial. But that was not allowed to be the
case, and the Hon. Gentleman was not satisfied with the answer
which had been given by the head of the Naval Administration
of the country, and which was satisfactory to him (Capt. B. )
He stopped Mr. Elton from going on shore as often as he
pleased, and Mr. Elton then deserted. He (Captain B.) put
it to the house, if a man under his command did the same,
whether he could maintain the discipline of the navy and the
character of a British man of war without giving this man
three dozen at the gangway ?—(Bear, hear.) This young
mass had not the excuse of his first ship, had deserted not for
a week or ten days, but for so long a period that if
he had not returned within a very few days of
the time he did—and that return was not volun-
tary, for he was brought back by an elder brother—
the maik of deserter would have been set against him in the
ship's books, and it would not have beers in his (Capt. B.'s)
power to save him. But on this occasion the young man's
elder brother implored him so easnestly to look over the young
man's fault, that, being pressed so urgently by the brother,
whose feelings did him credit, and knowing his family,
and wishing to excuse him, he said it would be impossible for
him to remain ;n the ship as an example to the
other yourg men, but that lie would allow him to join any
other ship in the navy, if the Captain should be willing to take
him when he (Capt. Berkeey) had made him acquainted with
the facts connected with his leaving the Thunderer. Captain
Bernard, of the Hercules, having succeeded him, expressed
himself willing to take him, and he (Captain Berkeley) said
that he would give Elton a certificate, which was a mere official
document, to enable him to carry the time he had spent irs the
Thunderer, not to Elton himself, but to the Captain, who might
give it to him at the end of twelve months, if he
should have well conducted himself within that time.
Thus it appeared that if he (Captain Berkeley) had
not shown clemency, the case would not be be-
fore the House now, and the Admiralty might be
visited for its clemency, as lie was now. Now, he came to
the statement of Elton in respect of Captain Williams. Capt.
Williams was then on board the Cambridge, in a wide road-
stead. Capt in Williams was at dinner, and Elton, whose
conduct was known to Captain Williams, did what all naval
nem would see to be an act of the greatest impertinence. Ile
asked the Captain for the loan of his boat. Why a Captain's
boat was to him what his charger was to the Duke of Welling-
toss ; and when the charger was ready saddled at the door, a
s tbaltern in the army would have as much right to ask the
Duke for the loan of his charger for a ride of five miles, as a
1 Nlidshipman would have to ask a Captain for ths loan of his boat.
—( Hear, and oh.) The Hon. Gentleman might not know
the etiquette of the service, but Mr. Elton did.—( Hear, hear.)
Ile must well know that no Commander or Lieutenant would
ask Captain Williams for a passage in his boat. The Hon.
Gentleman might not know that the five or six men in the boat
might have been from daylight till dark in attendance on the
Captain—that the Captain might not wish that these men
should have a pull of five miles to the shore and five miles back
o pease a subaltern—( Hear, hear)—that he might not wish
hat these should go after dark into a town where liquor was
plentiful without the presence of an officer. These things
might not be known to civilians, but they were well known to
naval mess, anti every officer in the Navy would agree with
him in taking the part of Captain Williams.. It should
be farther recollected that if the boat were down in the water,
a watch must remain up to hoist her up. Captain
Williams, therefore, was not wrong in saying there is no an-
swer to the singular application of Mr. Elton ; and if he
(Captain Berkeley) had been applied to under similar eircurn-
s 'toms, he would have sent for Mr. Elton to the quarter-deck
and have reprimanded him for his impertincnce.—( Hear,
and laughter.) The Hon. Gentleman had been somewhat
,cvere upon him (Captain Berkeley), but he thanked God he
had been brought up in the school of strict naval discipline,
and he had never yet left a ship without hearing cheers and
blessings from every man and officer with whom he had sailed.
Let the Hon. Gentleman who thought he was guilty of
,melty to Mr. Elton, ask what scene occurred when he
(Capt. IL) gave up the command of the Thunderer, with which
he taunted him. lie thought now he hail proved that Elton
a-as a dangerous character in the Navy, and that Capt. Wil-
liams was perfectly right in refusing that which he might have
granted to an officer of a different character, and that the
court-martial was justified in its sentence. He would tell
the Honourable Gentleman that no Court was more just or
ilement than a naval court-martial, and that nowhere had
character more weight.
Captain ROUS wished to explain the difference that
existed between the. Honourable Member for Rye
and himself ; and when the Honourable Gentleman
had commanded a ship as long as he had, he had no doubt he
would be a wiser and a better man.—( Hear.) It should be
home in nsind that when Mr. Elton and Captain Williams met,
the Captain knew that the former had deserted from the Thun-
derer, and, therefore, the request of Mr. Elton was a piece of
xtreine impertinence. An apology was dictated to Elton by
several gentlemanlike officers, but lie refused to sign it—when
he did, it was too late. The court-martial took place, and
.entenced him to six months' imprisonment. if this took place
in the French or American Navy, he would have been charged
with a felony, for challenging his superior officer, the greatest
offence a man could commit.—(Hear.) But the very
circumstance that lie was about to be discharged was
made the cause of an ovation or triumph, and a
great festival was prepared for bias. If he (Captain R.) were
on the court-martial, he would have prevented such an act of
mutiny by sentencing him to s'x months in England. How-
ever, orders came from the Admiralty to discharge the young
man on his arrival at Portsmouth.—( Hear, and" No.") Well,
at least the First Lord of the Admiralty gave a promise, and
the sentence was set aside. When the young man came on
board the Hastings he was in plain clothes instead of being in
the charge of a sentry. This showed that the service was
going to the dogs.—( Laughter.) He talked with the Mate
on the quarter-deck in familiar conversation. Perhaps the
Hon. Gentleman did not know that the quarter-deck was net
a place for familiar conversation.—( Hear and laughter.)
Captain Lawrence was quite right. A youngster of eighteen to
say to a man of sixty, " You're a liar, and you know you're a
liar !" If he (Captain Rous) were in his place, he would
placed him in irons and gagged his mouth.—(Laughter, and
hear, hear.) He hoped he might never sec the Hon. Member
for Rye First Lord of the Admiralty.—( Hear, and laughter. )
The Hon. and Gallant Admiral said he had no fault to find
with the court-martial or the scatence, yet this young man,
who on his passage home called the Captain a liar, was for;
given five months of his sentence. Why, if a man did this he
would be hanged.—(Laughter.) Hon. Gentlemen might
laugh but this was nu laughing matter for the country. But
the lion. and Gallant Admiral stultified the court-martial and
the Admiralty. Ile was told that Mr. Elton was
a man of family and education. Why, this made
the case ten times worse.—( Laughter and hear.) If Elton were
his nearest relative, he (Capt. B.) would sooner have lost his
right hand than have gone to the Admiralty to ask for a day's
remission. If he were his only child lie would say--" You
have behaved youself like a mad-man, like a fool. If you are
now to be imprisoned for six months, thank God it's no worse.
—( Laughter.) I trust you will moderate your mind in future,
and that you will come out a wiser and a better man.—
( Laughter.) Let this finish your education, and remember,—
' Ira furor brevis eat qua nisi par et imperet.' "—( Hear, hear.)
Mr. CURTEIS explained. .
Captain PECIIELL, after the diseusdon which had just
taken place, could hardly helm to gain the attention of the
House, while he asked for some information relating to the
vote then before the Committee. He wished for
some information as to the working of the Act for the
Registration of Merchant Seamen. He had been in-
formed that some sisort time since, when a merchant ship had
arrived in Torbay, it had been thought desirable to have
some information as to the number and description
of the crew, but on inquiry it was discovered that
not one of these men had been registered. The general
opinion was that the Register-office was of no importance, or
consequence whatever. He should be glad of some information
as to the condition and progress of the Register-office.
Then, again, with regard to the apprentices. Great
complaint had recently been made by the misplaced
zeal of officers commanding naval rendezvous in differ-
ent ports, who seemed anxious to disover flaws in the in-
dentures of apprentices on board merchant vessels, for the pur-
pose of takine, advantage of them, and getting the apprentices
to enter the Navy, thereby seriously inconveniencing the mer-
chant service. He alluded more particularly to a case which
had recently occurred at Shields, and which had been brought
under the attention of the Board of Admiralty.
Mr. SYDNEY HERBERT denied that there was any
desire on the part of the Admiralty- to distress the merchant-
service, and orders had been issued that in every instance an
apprentice desei ting a merchant ship and seeking to enter the
Navy, should be sent back to the merchant ship which he had
left. With regard to the case which had been alluded by the
Hon. and Gallant Member for Brighton. A youth of 20
had entered at the rendezvous at Shields, and the officer had
accepted him. The master of a merchant ship claimed him as
an apprentice, and produced certain indentures which he
himself acknowledged to be invalid. The youth was desired to
return to the merchant ship, lie refused to do so,
and it was not until he had expressed his determination to gJ
to London and enter, if he were refused at Shields, that he
had been permitted to enter. With respect to the w .rking of
the measure for registration, he had to state that since 1835
the number of seamen registered in the naval service was
15,000, and in the merchant service 30,000, snaking a total
of 45,000 men. That was exclusive of the last year, and it was
calculated that the increase in the last year was equal
i to that of the year is:cording, which was about 10,000; so
' that :there had been upwards of 50,01/0 seamen registered
1 since 1835, and, notwithstanding this increase, the demand fur
seamen was so great, that their wages had risen 20 per cent.
' 'rho apprentices' register also amounted to about 5,000 annu-
ally, so that there was a steady annual supply of 5,000 men who
had regularly served their time and learned their profession.
1 It was calculated that the number of seamen employed
in fishing vessels and other unlicensed craft amounted to 180,000
men more. It had been supposed that the introduction .of
' steam navigation would tend materially to decrease the number
of sailing vessels. Such, however, had not been the case since
1814, the Year in which steam navigation had been first intro-
duced. '1 he number of steamers had increased to 934, but
dur:ng the same time there had been an increase in the
number of sailing vessels, amounting to 3,610, making a
total increase of 4,544 vessels since 1814. The French regis.
ter of seamen in 1831 (as we understood) showed 56,000
men as able seamen. The total at present was 98,000 men,
but from that one-seventh must be deducted on account of

o d men and boys under age, and 8,000 seamen, who had de-
serted, principally in the United States, that would reduce
the total to 70,000 mess, and the total amount of French sea •
men was now less by 5,000 men than it had been in 1795,
and it was with the gseatest difficulty that they'
could man their . Hear, hear.) He believed
that equal difficulty existed in the United States,
fall back bfoali.:kthueppounr for purpose
anin manning their Navy, while we had without much difficulty
po
mof showing i nogu
rt that
Navy, vte
fitted nut fifty-four ships since the Ist of September. He men-
s tta thiaodn eadmtphl
eeser e scou i rcrue ems o n
should we find it necessary to do so on an emergency.
Mr. C. WOOD wished to know the gross amount of the
registered seamen in France, including all classes.
Mr. SYDNEY HERREhT—lncluding all elasses,the to-
tal number is 95,706.
Sir C. NAPIER approved of the Registration Bill applied
to the Navy ; but he thought that measure might be carried out
still further than at present. A seaman registered at one port
must now be registered again at another to which he removed ;
' and he thought a register might be given to him by
which that inconvenience might be avoided. With re-
gard to employment in duck-yards, it appeared to him that
a great advantage would be gain.d byeufirring situations of
' that kind upon deserving seamen. They would, by this means,
obtain the parties bestfverfrfor the various offices
in s
dock-
yaril , while they would, at the same time, hold out an induce-
ment to men of good character to enter the service. Employ-
ment in the dock-yards was now a matter of private influenc,
and the Navy was forgotten altogether. He remembered
having asked an old seaman whether he had applied
for a situation in a yard in which there was a vacancy ; upon
which the man replied that any application upon his part
would be useless, as the situation would of course be given
to the second butler of Lord Dalmeny, who had been keeping
company with Lady Minto's maid.—(Laughter.) He would
take that opportunity of making a statement in confirmation
of an observation which had fallen from him the other
evening, as to the very advanced age of many of
the superior officers in our Navy.—( Hear.) He tound
that out of the first two hundred Captains on the
list seven were upwa-ds of 70 years of age; forty-
nine were from 65 to 70 years old ; sixty-nine were from 60
to 65 years old ; sixty-six were from 55 to 60 years old ; and
there were only nine under 55 years of age. He believed thal
this evil night be remebed by an additional grant of a few
thousands a year, which it ould enable the Government to pen•
sion of officers arrived at an age at which it might be sup.
posed they could not sufficiently discharge their duties.
`Re vote was then agi red to.
The next vote having been put for the sum of 34,992/. for
the salaries of officers, and the several expenses connected with
the scientific department of the Navy,
Mr. COOPER. said 112 wished to ask the Hon. Gen-
tleman whether it was the i.itcntion of the present Board of
Admiralty, and of the Government Inspectors of Schools, to
adopt the recommendations of a Commission which hail been
appointed some years ago to inquire into the state of instruc-
tion at the Greenwich Hospital School.
:dr. SYDNEY HERBERT said that the subject was one
to which the present Administration, as well as the last, had
paid the utmost attention. The system recommended for
the instruction of the boys was be;ng carried out at present;
but the system of discipline had not succeeded so well, and the
fullest powet s were given to the masters of the school for that
ruxpoe.

Captain FiTzvoY sail that although he might meet
with the reprobation of the Hon. Member for Coventry, be
could not help saying that he wished the' proposed vote
was a larger one. The officers employed in the hydrographical
department at home, fur ha:stance, were very ill paid, although
the officers abroad ((ere rather well remunerated. He might
refer to the case of Captain Beaufort. a man whose reputation
it would be needles, for him to enlarge upon, and who had
only an allowance of 5001. a year, with a house, for his service 3,
at the head of the Ilvdrographical dipartment.
CApt. Ph-CHF:a asked whether Capt.. Beaufort did not
also receive his half-pay ?
Capt. FITZ RO Y said that he did ; but so did the Lords of
the Admiralty. The Hon. Member for Halifax had taken
great credit to himself, toe other evening, for the improve-
ments which the Administration to which he had belonged
had introduced into the service; and he hail endeavoured to de-
preciate the exertions of the " Flag Officer." But to that
' officer in his (Captain Fitzroy's) opinion the improvements
in question were mainly owing. He wished to say a
few words about he West India Packets. He thought that
wa; a subject which required the further coosidi ration of the
Admiralty ; and it ha 1 been found that the vessels now upon
that station were very inconveniently built for the purposes
for which they were intended. They were too large for run-
ning among the blands, and they were to weakly built to run
between the Islands and this country.
Mr. C. WOOD said that he could not attribute the improve-
ments (fleeted in the service to the " Flag Officer," as the
Ilo:t. and Gallant Member who preceded him had done. That
officer had !pa le his suggestions in the year 1838,
and the impiovements had been commenced in 1837.
The statement of the " Flag Officer" was incorrect—was totally
without founclition. Anything. so incorrect as the statement
of the " Flag Officer" he had never seen in his life, and it was
the less to be exeth•ed as he had all the papers before him.
The vote was then agreed to.
On the question being put that 124,445/. be granted to
her Majesty to defray the expenses of naval establishments at
home.

Mr. C. \V00) took the opportunity of suggesting that
Captain Elliot, late Plenipotentiary of her Majesty in China,
was deserving of sore employment at home, in consequence of
his zeal and personal sacrifices in the employment which he
lately held. _ . _

Sir GEORGE COCKBURN said whenever an opportu-
nity offered, the merits of Captain Elliot should not be over-
looke.t.—(llear )
The vote was 111C11 a reed to.
The stun of 23,1761. for the salaries of officers of naval esta-
blishments ate ad wa. next voted.

A vote of 567,027/. for the wages of artificers and others in
naval establishments at home, was agreed to.
The sum of 38,530/. for the %%ages of artificers in her Ma-
jesty's naval establishments abroad was then voted.
he quest:on b,ing put that the sum of ,238,90:1. be granted
fur Naval Stores,

Dr. BOW RING said that 113 could nut allow this enormous
vote to be passed at so late an hour. lie should, therefote, move
that the Chair,::an rep ,rt. progress. There was no regular ac-
count wha'ever kept of the st tree in this country, nor was Par-
liament informe.l what was the quantity at any time on hand.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said that
.the Hon. Member was
under a very erroneous impression The fact was, that a
very exact account of the stores on hand, was Owes s kept, but
when it was recollected 'the contiii'dfilii,&e,Ys made 'by
tender, it must be obvious that it would be, highly injudicious
to make it k:,oun from time to time what was the exact
amount of stores on hand:
Dr. BOWRING wished to kno*.'wlin .62 abttoliife survey
of the stores was last made ? • • - -
Sir JAMES GRAHAM—In- 1541.--(.Alatigh.)! -!'
Mr. WILLI AMS moved that the Chairman report progress.
It had been n established rule for thelast three years net to
vote any public money after twelve o'elock.'....—(A latigh.)
Mr. S. HERBERT said that he did not intend to go fur-
ther than the present vote that nigh'.
Mr. WALLIAMS—You had better take all the votes to-
gether.
The vote was then agreed to.
The House then resumed, and the Chairman reported pro-
gress' and obtaineai leave to sit again.
The Rivers (Ireland) Bill was read a second time, and or-
dered to be committed on Monday.
Sir GEORGE CLERK moved that the House, on Wed-
nesday, resolve itself into a Committee of Ways and Means.._
Ordered.

SALMON FISHERIES (SCOTLAND).
Mr. 11. Dc{ UAIAIOND brought in this Bill, which was read
a first time.

The other Orders of the Day were then dispos, d of, and the
House Adjourned at One o'Clock.

SECESSION FROM THE HOUSE
OF COMMONS.
TO TIIE EDITOR OF THE SUN.
SlR,—As a reader of your able Jmrual, I would make a
suggestion in the present critical position of our country, and
the utter disregard on the part of the Legislature to the welfare
of the industrial yortion of the community, and their con-
temptuous denial of justice to the famishing population of the
manufacturing districts. I would suggest, that during the
passing of the " Pinch-belly" measure of the monopolists,
that these patriotic men who, in the House mis.called the
Pe 'pie's, have stood for ward as the advocates of unrestricted
commerce, that they should absent themselves, either ita a
body or individually, previously protesting before the House
their determina!ion, that they should return to their respective
constituencies; that ineetiggs should be convened, at which
meetings the representation of the people iu their own House
may be discussed and some understanding come to as to the
course to he yut sued.
The public generally are sick of the talk of Parliament.
Nce.l we wonder at this ? Let those who represent the mil-
lions leave the trimmers to assist in the childish play of dividing
to no purpose; and let them entsr on the noble and righteous
course that is before them—the attainment for the whole people
f a share in the Government, as laid down in the simple pro-
position adoi.ted by Joseph Sturge and his coadjutors. That
this object may soon be realised, and men recognise the Scrip-
ture maxim et doing unlo others as they would be done by, and
ishin,g your Journal success in the advocacy of these views,
suhscibc myself (with regret),
AN UNREPRESENTED ENGLISHMAN.
London, March 7, 12342.

THE NEW AVERAGES.
TO THE EDITOR OF THE SUN.

Sue,—having a perfeet knowledge of Dover Corn..market,
and of those to be added by the slippery Ministers for aver-
ages for the new Sliding Scale, allow me to present to you a
few facts upon this selection, and to request of gentlemen re-
siding in the localities of the several markets to be added for
future averages, t., forward to you such hints as to the quality
of the wheat sold at those places as may occur to them.
Dover Coen .market begins at three o'clock r. m., or rather-
later; the number of persons attending very few; sometimes
not exceeding twenty ; the quantity of business done inconsi-
derable. The laud being very interior about Dover, the qua-
lity of the wheat is at ail times iufet ior, and, in unfavourable
harvests like the last, much of it unfit for human food.
The Corn nnarket at Sandwich, about the second in the
country, which makes no return, where nearly all the fine wheat
for Dover is purchased, is supplied with wheat of an average
full ss. per quarter superior to the wheat sold at Dover; is well
attended ; and where ten times the business is dune. This market
is omitted in the present and new selection of markets for futnre.
averages.
So that the Dover market is selected to make returns or
wheat which, unmixed, the inhabitants cannot eat, and no re-
turn of the fine wheat they do cat, is, or is not, intended to be
made at all. Such will be the Dover averages. Is this selec-
tion made from ignorance? If so, it is a poor plea for a Mi-
nister of State ; and, if by design, it is downright dishonesty,
and is done to unfaitly keep down the averages, like the pre-
sent system, which requires factors to return all wheat sold,
whether fur human food, or for making starch for ladies' caps ;
whilst, by the new addition, a better sort of pi meat will heap
the sliding seals to keep out of the country wholesome food for
its sustenance.

I do hope these Nets will induce others to expose the trieks
of the Sli►ling Scale Ministers in their 'levers] localities.
Dover, March 4, 184'2. FAIRPLAY.
The Mot% kg is an extract from a factor's letter, dated Mark-
lane, Much 5, 1843:

" The sprout, d wheat from Scotland, which has lately come
upon our market, h..s been sold at all prices, from 30s. to 50$
per quarter."
Now, the sane letter quotes fine Essex and Kent wheat in
hark-lane at 6Ss. Ilene is a fine specimen of Ministerial and
Parliamentary legislation and human wisdom, one of the beau-
tiesere of the sliding-1 had almost said the scampipg
is agricultural protection, where pig's meat is bnacle.nard
keepwith
human food to enhance the price of sound wheat, d
existencea by the
out foreign grain, to the destruction of human
body politic, for the protection,this to be made
for the protection of the agriculturists, d
: ' and
into the averages:-
worse by the introduction of morei2 s
not of health,n.orexistence, but

- ---
flinearunel was, meeember, wrecked on
Immediately the unfortunate sufferers.
Tlic Globe states that the Oceans of liavie, 700
tons, having on board 300 emigrants, men,D women, and chi'.
ad rbeann,
kb oouffn d
jfaomr
allee4w O .
reached the shore they were stripped perfectly :raked by the,
negroes, who plundered the ship, not lea%ing ev, en a single rope
of the rigging%