Star.
London, England, 1808-02-17 00:00:00

world. He knew there were some --
documents could not safely be produced.
cases were merely exceptions to the
Majesty's Ministers had thought it ►
official papers on this'subject before
the object of his motion would be to supply tu,. _
ciel.cs in the communication of which the House was
now in possession. The first papersshe would move
for were the documents or official papers from his
Majesty's Principal Secretaries of State to his Mi-
nister at Vienna, relative to the mediation of that
Court. The next was a copy of the minutes or ex-
tracts of the conversation between Lord Hutchinson
and the Emperor of Russia, on the T3d of August,
1807. When he gave his notice, some Gentlemen
had complained of-the impropriety of asking for those
communications which were derived from the conver-
sation of Sovereigns ; there were some Gentlmen,
however, on the other side, that were not able to
perceive this impropriety, when upon a former occa-
sion they produced, of their own accord, the opinion
of Sir Arthur Paget about the Archduke Charles
and the Austrian Cabinet. These were opinions that
it was very proper for a foreign Minister to transmit
to his Court, but which were generally conceived to
be of that description of official papers which ought
not to have been made public. A Right Honourable
Gentleman (Mr. Canning) had appeared to set him.
self forward as the champion of foreign Sovereigns,
and to think, that if the foreign Ministers of England
were obliged to wait in the anti-chamber, while the
Minister of 'France passed by them and obtained his
private audience, this was no subject with which that
House should bi made acquainted. It appeared to
him, that it was no violation of public duty, 'or of
private confidence, to publish that conversation which
the Emperor of Russia had held with one of the first
heroes of Europe, Lord Hutchinson. That Noble-
man, who to the most conspicuous military merit
joined the most punctilious honour, had not hesitated
to publish their conversation to the world—and as it
had been thus already made public, he could not con-
ceive any possible danger from having it laid before
Parliament in such a shape, as to throw light upon
the subject that was to be discussed. The subject of
this. conversation had been conveyed to Ministers in
a dispatch from Lord G. L. Gower, and therefore
it could be easily produced. Lord Hutchinson had
expressly stated, that the Emperor of Russia had
asked him, after the battle of Friedland, whether
peace was not absolutely necessary, to which he. as
obliged to agree. If it was supposed so highly indis-
creet to publish such communications as these, it
must also be supposed that it war grossly indiscreet
to publish, in the beginning of the present war,
the private conversation which took place be-
tween Bonaparte and Lord Whitworth. All that
passed at the Thuilleries in the face of the other fo-
reign Ministers might have been published ; but the
remainder was a conversation at least as private and
confidential as that which had taken place between
the Emperor of Russia and Lord Hutchinson. The
Gentlemen on the other side might as well say, that
there would have been great indiscretion in publish.
ing to the world the conversations which took place
between Mr. Jackson and the Crown Prince of Den-
mark ; and yet the Crown Prince did not see the least
impropriety in giving the substance of those conver-
sations to all Europe. The Crown Prince had asked
Mr. Jackson, what he could offer in exchange for the
honour of Denmark ? After stating the varioui papers
which he intended to move for, the Honourable Mem-
ber concluded by moving for
" Copies or Extracts of the Dispatches from his Majesty's
Principal Secretary of State to his Minister at Vienna. respecting
the Mediation of that Cabinet."
Lord G. L. GOWER said, that as his name had
been alluded to in the foregoing observations, he
begged leave to say a few words on the subject of
those two dispatches which had been alluded to. His
answer to Genernl Budbcrg was the first ; and that.
arose, he said, from the following circumstance :
M. Alopeus had written to the Right Hon. the Se-
cretary of State for Foreign Affairs, pressing strongly
for military succours, and pointing out different
places where a diversion might be made with good
effect : this letter his Right Hon. Friend transmitted
to him in his public capacity, with a note of the de-
termination of his Majesty's Government : and Gene-
ral Budberg having pressed him on the same subject,
as soon as he received the dispatch of his Right Hon.
Friend, he waited on General Budbcrg, and chewed
him the dispatch, which he did not think it necessary
to accompany by a note, which was the reason that
no note had been delivered on the subject. At that
time the Empersir of Russia was on the point of set-
ting off from Memel to St. Petersburgh, and he was
preparing to follow him, which was the reason of his
sheaving the original dispatch, instead of giving a
c Ipy of the note. As to the copy of the communica.
fon of the conversation between the Emperor of
Russia and Lord Hutchinson, he always looked on
that as a private confidential communication from, the
Noble Lord to him. He had, during his stay at Me-
mel, observed, that the Noble Lord was much in the ,
confidence of the Emperor of Russia, and thought
he might from that derive some inforniation which
might be of service to this country. He, therefore,
when the Noble Lord made the ccannunicatienAn,
him, thought it proper and necessary to sedd it hoinef
but as he held it to be purely confidential, and not fit'
to make a record in a public office, he had not .sent
it in his public dispatches, but in a prieate letter to
his Right Hon. Friend the Secretary cf State.
Mr. Secretary CANNING said, that from the man,.
ner in which the Honourable Gentleman had argued
in support of his motion for the production of those
papers, it would seem as if he had expressed a deter.
mination to resist producing the greatest part ofthem..
The contrary was, however, the case ; and the Hon.
Gentleman might now see that great part of his art-'
gument was useless, after the information which had
just been given by his Noble Friend. The copy of
the communication, which was asked for in the motion
of the Honourable Gentleman, was what was con-
tained in the note of M. Alopeus, and stated diffe-
rent districts of countries in which the people were
attached to the cause of the allies, and would be glad
to join them if a diversion were made in their favour.
This would be seen to be a sufficient cause fir refus-
ing to give that communication, because it would be
*difficult to take three sentences together without din
covering some portion of the people who had thus
shewn their disposition towards the cause of the al-
lies ; and every one must be sensible that all those
districts were now under the iwn bigui of the Ruler of

make a disclosure of their names
' inevitably draw on them his se-
- whole purport, however, was
of Russia, to which his Ma.
an answer. The Honourable
that his view was to ascertain
had done all in their power t 0....
.... us procuring, peace. He believed it would appear
they had, when it was con.idered in what a situation
they were left by their predecessors in office. Many
f the papers moved for, he had not the smallest ob•
asonsuoraourabclees
jGetontlemato bne,
sinmgoptirotuwceasd. forOcnoepieds :11 anye
given by the late Ministers of affording military suc-
cours. Some of the papers, he laid, would chew,
that more had been promised than he had stated,
When this subject was so amply discussed on a former
occasion in the last Session. Lord Hutchinson, he
would find, had made such promises ; and at the com-
mencement of the war between Russia and France,
dispatches had been sent by the late Ministers, most
earnestly desiring Russia to march her armies in sup-
port of Prussia ; and the most pressing instances were
made to the Court of Stockholm on the same ac-
count. If Russia was merely considered in the cool
view of an ally, surely the Ministers of this
•country
were not entitled to call for such extraordinary exer-
tions on the part of Russia ; unless it was their ac
tual intention to co-operate cordially and heartily in
the same contest. These proofs, however, were sufh
tient, in his.opinion, to substantiate the case, that ex•
pectations of military succour from • this country had
held tot. After they called on Russia to come
forward with her arrain, a considerable period of rime
elapsed without any aid being given by the Govern-
ment of this country—during which, applications for
both military and pecuniary assistance were made by
Russia, accompanied by complaints of its not having
been given sooner—but neither were granted. There
was a tolerable strong evidence also of pecuniary as-
sistance having been granted, in the proposal of Mi-
nisters to obtain a loan of six millions for the Court
of Russia. He did not mean to throw the least blame
on the late Ministers for such their intention—but he
thought, after the specimen which the country had of
other loans, and their knowledge that to a certainty
they walla have it to pay, it would have a great ef-
fect on the market here. There was, however, a
great difference between that intended loan, and leav-
ing them altogether without any pecuniary assistance
whatever. He thought a moderate sum might have
been given—such as a million or two by way of sub-
sidy, though the risk would have been proportionally
the same. It must, however, be recollected that no
power on the Continent had been so eminently faith-
ful in pecuniary engagements as the Court of Russia,
though their bargains were generally made with indi-
viduals, which might be one cause why they were
more scrupulously exact than Courts sometimes are'
with each other. There was another circumstance
which was of considerable weight, which was the real.
want that the Court of Russia was in of money so
much so in fact, at one time in the campaign, that
Lord Hutchinson was pressingly called on toadvance•
£lOO,OOO, and he did actually advance that sum, and
as a proof of the punctuality of Russia, it had been
repaid since the termination of the war. With respect
to the next point, copies of dispatches relative to the
commercial captures, he had no objection to their
being produced. They did not concern the present
Government, but on the subject of the complaints oft
Russia on that head, and of the vexations thrown in
the way of their commerce, he and his colleagues had
made every exertion to obviate the accusations made
against their predecessors. There was one of the mo-
tions for copies of any correspondence relative to the
mediation of Austria, which the Honourable Gentle-
man said was to fill up a chasm. That mediation,
however, had been accepted, subject to no other con-
ditions than that the powers engaged in war' should be
parties to it. The business was first commenced be-
tween Count Stahremberg, the Austrian Minister
here, and himself. The result of the determination
of the Cabinet had been transmitted to Mr. Adair at
Vienna, and for a considerable period of time, no cor-
respondence took place on the subject between Count
Stahremberg and the Foreign Office. This, of course,
caused a seeming chasm. -Lord Pembroke was after-
wards appointed to go to Vienna on a special mission.
His Lordship was instructed also on the subject; but
Lord Pembroke's voyage and journey were unfortu-
nately so much retarded, that he only arrived at Vi-
enna in the latter end of June, and soon after, the fa-
tal battle of Friedland took place. There was only
one more paper to which he objected, and the reason
was that it did not exist.
Mr. PONSONBY said, he had listened to the
Right Hon. Gentleman, who had just sat down, with
astonishment, because he seemed to him to have been
all the time speaking from the question, instead of to
it. He ridiculed the idea of the Noble Lord's (Lord
Hutchinson) letter being called a private letter, be-
cause not ir closed in his public dispatches. It was
sent by that Noble Lord, as a communication of what
he deemed important information for Ministers to be
possessed of. His Hon. Friend's object was to know
what were the real sentiments of the Emperor, with
regard to a treaty of peace, and whether the En-
peror was seriously of opinion that a safe and hc.
nourable peace might be obtained for this country,
from the Ruler of France. He wanted also to know
whether Ministers had done all in their power to faci-
litate the means of entering upon a treaty for that
desirable purpose. Such being • the contents of the
letter, the Right Hon. Gentleman might call it a
rp letter, but he insisted it was a public dispatch.
It was a communication from our accredited Minister
there to the Secretary for Foreign Affairs here, on a
subject;of the highest import to the interests of the
countrp and it Was idle and ridiculous to call it pri-
,rate :. if tip,e Emperor of Russia communicated to
Lewd Hutchinson his sentiments with respect to the
termitlk• which. peace might be Obtained—if he was
..disposea to mediate a beneficial peace for England—
if he eipressed any decided opinion that an honourable
peace might be obtained, the House ought to know
it. The Right Hon. Gentleman was not, however,
disposed to spew the Hollis whether he and his Col-
leagues had done all they could to take, advantage of '
the temper and disposition of the
Emperor of Russia
to mediate for a peace. He was, therefore, perfectly
dissatisfied with what the Right on. Gentleman had
said, and thought the House should insist on the pro-
duction of the Paper, •
Mr. Secretary CANNING was about to speak in
explanation, and was proceeding to comment on what

bid fallen Blom the Hon. Gentleman who spoke Lists.
when he was called to order by * •
Mr; ADAM, who contended that he hal a1n,,,..
poker to the point lie was their arguing, and the
fore it was tot ill 'owabk for him to go over it am„.
The SPEAKER said, there were several pr' -'.0,,,..
Lions, mid it was- usually ihe mode to argue them
generally, which' the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. pons. •
by) had done. The Right Hen. Geved4in
i:
therefore, not. out of order in inswcring generair
but the "better to preserve orriet,.ll6 ihOught the hres't
way would be .for him to put each proposition aslh„ •
came to it, and then those Which were meant to be
granted would pass, and those only be argued wh.;cii '
were mem'. t. to be reiusid:
The first motion was then put and agreed to.
Mr. Secretary CANNING, was about to ohier,4
on the 'second motion, when ..
Mr. WHITBREAD rose. an 4 said, that to ohfutt
the objection of. this being a-priy,ate letter, he had tut,. :
stituted the following, for his original mntion, 'which .
he would beg leave to offer in its stead, viz.-.7
~ A Copy the substance of any Communication Madrister.,
Minister arSt. Petersinirgh, to the Secretary of State for the y;
reign Department, of the Conversation between the Emma dr:
Runk and Lord Hutchinson, on therld August, 1110.' "' ,
Mr. Secretary- CICNNING said, the aleevathi;
made no difference in his mind—he thought thattno...
munication ought not to be laid before•the Hew
and he was determined to resist it. But before,*
proceeded to -deliver his observations an the sae*.
he must beg leave to assure the Home, that whelthil.,
should have occasion to. mention .thecnarne albs.
Hutchinson, he should nterely-considerhim as ap%
son in: a private rapacity, but without meaning ** .
least slight to him, for he had the tiighest respect*:
' his character. It was his decided and clear opin*.
therefore, that when the Court of Great Britain dek,..
gated its powers to any accredited person, its:,
to receive all-diplomatic communications throat:lr
channel alone, and he thought it would be • .;
derogatory to :our Ministers at Foreign Courts lilt::
it must hurt their feelings, and might be productive:
of serious and mischievous consequences, if sue*.
rule of conduct was. not adhered. to, •It. might pa':
hips be said, that this communication- then sane/ H
for was put into that same regular channel ;owl*
he alone was the judge, whether he.wouti trap* I
it, and the House had already heard from the &dm,
ration of his Noble Friend, that hl had. transmitted ..
it only as a private communication which had been
Vonfidentially made to hint. . He asserted, that if this
communication was granted, these was co English .
Gentleman travelling on the Continent, who ringlos
not institute a correspondence with.his Majesty's Mi. •
nisters ; nay, perhaps even a cross-correspondence,
and which, though transmitting communications
made through the predelection and good opinion of a
powerful and wise Sovereign on subjects of the f
importance, it would not, in his mind, justify
ters in being *awn from their coinmunication
their accredited Ministers.. .'He then adverted
double diplomacy of Louis XV. when an amb•
was appointed to a foreign Court, and a pri\
son sent also, delegated from some subordinate)
nister, who dress and gamed, and formed
quaintances and connexions with people of
consequence—with Ministers, their Mistresses,
favourites, and with Sovereigns if• they- could,
transmitted to the Court a-rsailles information
every kind which they t.truld pi wi.uic, as a kind
check upon that which was sent by the accredited:
Ambassador. This was a kind of diplomacy ~
he did*not approve, and therefore he was determined
to resist the present motion.
Mr. PONSONBY said, the Right, Hon.
man had imputed to his Hon. Friend, in mot.
the production of Lord Hutchinson's conversation,'
design to excite croft feefiiigt.
Mr. CANNING immediately explained, ..
44 cross feeling," he meant nothing in relation to i.
per, but to that appearance of a treat correspondence,
which could produce nothing but confusion,
feat the true objects of every diplomacy.
Mr. PONSONBY continued.—He had, be .
wish to excite any improper .feelings, or to create
confusion ; but he rose to vindicate the real
of his Honourable Friend's. ndation, the ( _
,Which was merely the production of a most important
document, without the communication of which '
mould be impossible for the House fully
opon the question which his Honourable F'
,n view, upon a future discussion, namely,
we had acted right or wrong in then rejecting
proffered mediation of Russia towards a peace
France. No comparison could be less appropriate
than that of Lord Hutchinson to an ordinary ^
ler. He had been immediately before, the
Minister of this country at the Court of Prussia .
the peace of' Tilsit, when he took las departure
St. Petersburgh. It was not to be supposed,
fore, from the high confidential situation
recently filled, that .a Nobleman of his -
should so suddenly have sunk in the estimation
Emperor into the mere private traveller. The
Honourable Gentleman had admitted that .
Lord held so much consideration in the esteem
Majesty's accredited Minister at St. Petersbi
he held it right to avail himself of.the power .
fidence, wherewith the Noble Lord was honoured
the Emperor, to receive the communication
gay. travel/en as he was called, respecting the
sation and sentiment of his Imperial Majesty,
highest importance to this country, and to ma
communications the subject of a confidential
his Majesty's Principal Secretary of State
reign Department, for the direction of his
Government i therefore he would contend
was to all intents and purposes, a public
high importance to the welfare of this country
riZly involving the conduct of his Majesty's
ars, and the production of which that Hnust
right to claim, and Ministers no just preteni
withhold,
Dr. LAWRENCE spoke to the same
condemned the duplicity, with which the '
Gentleman had treated the character of Lord
inson, first in affecting to consider him with
spect, and then, in speaking of his roman'
as if they were those of any other gay
Russia for his private pleasure. If Mini
said the document in question Was one
not be produced with snfety, they would
plea on which to ground the refusal. But .
no such pretence. All that his Honourable
desired was merely the substance of the
Lion. But Ministers might well 'set enquiry

cases whete Public- ranee k5O that to make
roduced. but those; s.l.tuitiops, would ine
e general rule. "Nnenteance. The
proper to lay so d m the defence
re•the Rouse—and . is declaration was a
to suPPIT the deft- evehttenian had stated, ti
3‘;,:k the ens whether Government ha

1 the fiat EmaYa
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tion with •L eltiT
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spondencee not
1, and de•
he said, nn infi
create my Pot
:al motives to
object tir
iumortais bli
Lf Which it Mi
•to decide'. in.
Friend bat
y, whethr:
;jetting the ri
peace *tit
appropriate tea
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e accredited .1 be
'russia oat*: el_
eparture for
used, tbero'-'
n he had se or
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er
latitin of the•
tb
The Ritkibc.- ti
Id
prersistboteenurtohmuurediS g4cieftsualttiash:::
mien of this
the cover< /
lesty, of the
o snake those
atial letter to •
e in the Fo:
Majesty 5
end that this
dispatch cf '
untry, mate'
esty's
Muse had a
pretence to
ne effect, and
• Right Hon; •
Lord Hutch-
with high re'
ninunicatioas
r traveller
dinisteri had
e which could •
Id have some
lot they nude.
arable Friend
.
e comrnunia•
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